Note: The output shown below is from the Communication Access Realtime
Translation (CART) system used in the Signage Subcommittee meeting and is unedited.
The CART system was used to provide an accommodation to persons with hearing loss 
and persons who are deaf, and was streamed in real-time and available to the 
public on the internet during the meeting.  
                                                                           1







                         x--------------------------------x

                            UNITED STATES ACCESS BOARD

                              RAIL VEHICLES ACCESS

                         x--------------------------------x



                        SIGNAGE COMMITTEE TELECONFERENCE

                                     *DRAFT*





                           THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 13, 2014



                              1:00 p.m. - 3:00 p.m.









               Location: United States Access Board
                         1331 F Street, NW, Suite 1000
                         Washington, DC  20004



               Reporter:  Sandra Gartrell







                                                                           2



                                      AGENDA





               1.0              Introductions



               2.0              Election of chair



               2.1              Nominations



               2.2              Vote (instructions to be provided)



               3.0              Review subcommittee scope and

               objectives



               4.0              Report on February 6 conference

               call (staff)



               5.0              Review subcommittee suggestions for

               and categories of various types of signs



               6.0              Discussion



               6.1              Determine how each type of

               information should be conveyed (accessible sign or

               another format)

                                                                           3





               6.2              Determine what technical provisions

               (raised letters, braille, visual access only) should

               apply to each type of sign



               7.0              Public comment period



               8.0              Closing remarks



































                                                                           4



                              P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S

                         MR. BEATTY:  Good morning, everyone.  This is Paul

                    Beatty with the Access Board.  I want to welcome you to

                    the second conference call on signage.

                         At this point I'm going to ask the operator to

                    read off who is currently on the line.

                         OPERATOR:  At this time I would like to confirm

                    all participants on the phone line.  We have Marsha

                    Mass?  Please respond when I state your name.

                         MS. MAZZ:  Yes.

                         OPERATOR:  Ed Hoff?

                         MR. HOFF:  Here.

                         OPERATOR:  Jackson Xue?

                         MR. XUE:  Here.

                         OPERATOR:  Janice Lintz Schacter?

                         MS. SCHACTER:  Here.

                         OPERATOR:  Marshall Lucier?

                         MR. LUCIER:  Here.

                         OPERATOR:  Melissa Anderson?

                         MS. ANDERSON:  Here.

                         OPERATOR:  Lise Hamlin?

                         MS. HAMLIN:  Here.

                         OPERATOR:  Crystal Lyons?

                         MS. LYONS:  Here.

                         OPERATOR:  Marilyn Golden?

                                                                           5



                         MS. GOLDEN:  Here.

                         OPERATOR:  Robert Carlson?

                         MR. CARLSON:  Here.

                         OPERATOR:  Billy Altom?  Billy?  Looks like his

                    line is disconnected.

                         Monica London?

                         MS. LONDON:  Here.

                         OPERATOR:  We have Kenneth Shiotani?

                         MR. SHIOTANI:  Here.

                         OPERATOR:  Jonathan Michel?

                         MR. MICHEL:  Here.

                         OPERATOR:  David Nelson?

                         MS. NELSON:  Here.

                         OPERATOR:  Frank Maldari?

                         MR. MALDARI:  Here.

                         OPERATOR:  Terry Pacheco?

                         MS. PACHECO:  Here.

                         OPERATOR:  Christopher Hart?

                         MR. HART:  Here.

                         OPERATOR:  Lisa Fairhall?

                         MS. FAIRHALL:  Here.

                         OPERATOR:  And Gary Talbot?

                         MR. TALBOT:  Here.

                         MR. PECHT:  Jim Pecht for the Access Board who is

                    also here.

                                                                           6



                         MS. BUNALES:  Rose Marie Bunales with the Access

                    Board who is also here.

                         MR. BEATTY:  I think this is everybody.

                         Before we turn it over to Jim Pecht, our first

                    order of business is the election of a chair of the

                    subcommittee.  I will turn it over to Paul to run that.

                         MS. HAMLIN:  I have a little trouble hearing you.

                    I do have the CART.  She is doing a great job.  But it

                    is hard to hear.  I also want to let you know that

                    Andrew Phillips is trying to get on the line.

                         MR. BEATTY:  Can you hear me also?

                         OPERATOR:  Billy Altom just joined as well.

                         MS. BUNALES:  Operator, I do know I did request 30

                    minimum lines.  I'm sorry.

                         OPERATOR:  That is okay.  Take the time you need.

                         MS. BUNALES:  I requested 30 other lines.  If

                    there are any other subcommittee members coming in,

                    will you please let those through.

                         Ladies and gentlemen, I apologize, we are back to

                    the script.

                         As you know, ladies and gentlemen, we are asking

                    for nominations for the position of subcommittee

                    chairman.  And for the members on CART, if you wish to

                    submit your name, please email me directly.  For

                    teleconference, Operator, those interested in

                                                                           7



                    subcommittee chairman, please -- Operator?

                         OPERATOR:  It will take a moment.  I need to put

                    them on a "listen only" mode and we can go to the

                    voting.

                         MS. BUNALES:  Okay.  Thank you.

                         OPERATOR:  One moment, please.

                         At this time all those participants interested in

                    the office of subcommittee chair, please press star 1.

                         This is the operator.

                         MS. BUNALES:  I'm not seeing anyone responding.

                         OPERATOR:  I do have two votes that came through.

                         MS. BUNALES:  Now I see it.  Do you have their

                    names?

                         OPERATOR:  Yes, I do.  Do you want me to verbally

                    say it?

                         MS. BUNALES:  We will give them another 30

                    seconds.  The polls are still open, if you are still

                    interested.  And people on CART, please private message

                    me through the chat area.

                         Operator, if you could announce who is in the poll

                    right now.

                         OPERATOR:  We have two parties.  That is Gary

                    Talbot and Terry Pacheco.

                         MS. BUNALES:  To confirm it is Gary Talbot and

                    Terry Pacheco for RVAAC subcommittee chairman.

                                                                           8



                         If there are any other interested parties, please

                    indicate so right now.

                         OPERATOR:  As a reminder that is star 1.

                         MS. BUNALES:  Thank you for your patience,

                    everybody.  Without further objection, nominations are

                    now closed.  The candidates now Gary Talbot and Terry

                    Pacheco --

                         OPERATOR:  We do have one more that cued up.  We

                    have Jonathan Michel, who has cued up as well.

                         MS. BUNALES:  So we have Gary Talbot, Terry

                    Pacheco and Jonathan Michel.

                         Without further objections, the nominations are

                    now closed.

                         Ladies and gentlemen, we will all hear statements

                    from the candidates, giving each an opportunity about

                    why they would like to run for the chair.

                         Operator, will you go ahead and take over the

                    call.  Cue the first candidate, please.

                         OPERATOR:  I will open up the line for our first

                    candidate, correct?

                         MS. BUNALES:  Yes.

                         OPERATOR:  Jonathan, your line is open.

                         MR. MICHEL:  I can't seem to hear anything on this

                    call right now.  It is just all scrambled.  I think I

                    am going to try to call back in on a separate line.  Is

                                                                           9



                    everybody else hearing me loud and clear?

                         MR. BEATTY:  I can hear you.

                         OPERATOR:  Do you want me to go to the next

                    candidate and Jonathan is dialing back in, correct?

                         MR. MICHEL:  I'm going to try to call back in.  I

                    can't hear anything.

                         MS. BUNALES:  Okay.

                         OPERATOR:  Did you want me to go to the next one,

                    then?

                         MS. BUNALES:  We will go to the next one.

                         OPERATOR:  Terry, your line is open.

                         MS. PACHECO:  Please pardon me.  I have a terrible

                    upper respiratory infection today, so I'm not sounding

                    my best.

                         I'm Terry Pacheco.  I think I met most all of you

                    in the last few meetings.  I'm also on the committee

                    representing the American Council for the Blind.  I

                    myself am a person with low vision.  I have also worked

                    for most of my life with the needs of people who are

                    totally blind, legally blind, have some cognitive

                    disabilities.  Signage has always been a major issue to

                    me.  I worked for seven years as the affiliate services

                    coordinator to coordinate 72 local and state affiliates

                    of consumer advocates throughout the country.  I'm

                    working with some others right now on a couple of

                                                                          10



                    issues that also have to do with rail transportation.

                    I'm sorry.  I'm going to start coughing any second.

                         I have the time to put into this right now over

                    the next year and I also am a braille and large print

                    and other alternative formats specialist by profession.

                    I guess that -- anybody have any questions?  About all

                    I have to say right now.

                         MS. BUNALES:  Operator, will you cue up the last

                    candidate, please.

                         OPERATOR:  Jonathan did dial back in.  I can go to

                    Gary and come back to Jonathan.  One moment.

                         Gary, your line is open, sir.

                         MR. TALBOT:  Thank you, very much.  My name is

                    Gary Talbot.  While I'm interested in being a chair in

                    one of the subcommittees, I would very much like to

                    support Terry's nomination for chair.  I would like to

                    withdraw my name.  I appreciate it very much and hope I

                    get considered for some other position.  Thank you.

                         MS. BUNALES:  Thank you.

                         Operator, Jonathan next please.

                         MR. MICHEL:  Yes.  I actually would like to second

                    Gary Talbot's nomination for Terry.  I feel like I'm

                    pretty new to the rail industry.  And I think her

                    expertise in everything associated with signage would

                    best serve the subcommittee and therefore I will recuse

                                                                          11



                    myself from the nomination as well.

                         MS. BUNALES:  Okay.  In that case, Operator, would

                    you please open all lines.

                         OPERATOR:  One moment.

                         MS. BUNALES:  Yes, everybody unmuted.  And I do

                    have Billy Altom in the room.

                         MR. ALTOM:  Yes.

                         MS. BUNALES:  Billy Altom, we had two candidates

                    withdraw -- I guess at this point I will hand it over

                    to you now and I guess that is Terry Pacheco.

                         MR. ALTOM:  Thank you, thank you, very much,

                    Terry, for your position.  I think you will be

                    absolutely wonderful in it.  Thank you, Gary and

                    Jonathan, for your consideration.

                         I would like to on behalf of the committee appoint

                    Terry as our subcommittee chair for signage.  Anything

                    more formal than that?

                         MS. BUNALES:  I leave it to -- we need a motion on

                    the floor.

                         <<<:  Hello?

                         MR. CARLSON:  This is Robert Carlson.  I agree we

                    should do this by acclamation.

                         MR. BEATTY:  The committee has voted.  There is

                    only one person.

                         MS. MAZZ:  Do the protocols call for the committee

                                                                          12



                    to elect the chair?

                         MR. BEATTY:  Right.

                         MS. MAZZ:  And the chair must be a member of the

                    full committee, is that not correct?

                         MR. BEATTY:  Right.

                         MS. MAZZ:  Thank you.

                         MR. BEATTY:  Since there was only one full

                    committee member running, I guess we will go with

                    Robert's suggestion.  We have Terry in the position

                    being the only person.

                         MS. MAZZ:  It is election by acclamation.  Hearing

                    no objections.

                         <<<:  Hello?

                         MR. BEATTY:  So, Terry, you are the chair.  There

                    is one other administrative matter before you turn it

                    over to Jim Pecht.

                         I sent out an email saying we are going to elect

                    the chair and I also indicated who was a member.

                         Now, I would ask for people -- the Chair had

                    appointed everybody who was a full member of the

                    committee as well as an alternate to the subcommittee.

                    He did not appoint anybody else.  However, the email

                    said that people could apply now.  With the snow and

                    not having access to the RVAAC email access, people may

                    have applied.

                                                                          13



                         So my recommendation to the full committee chair,

                    Billy, is to appoint everybody that is on the line that

                    is not a member or representative, because they are

                    already a committee member.

                         So people like Gary Talbot and David Nelson, et

                    cetera, who are not alternates or members of the

                    committee would then be appointed to be members of the

                    subcommittee.

                         MS. MAZZ:  Paul, they need to indicate that they

                    are interested in being members.  They may simply be

                    attending a single meeting.  It would make more sense

                    for them to indicate their interest in being a member.

                         MR. BEATTY:  I will take two steps.  I will first

                    have the chair appoint them and like we did for full

                    committee members --

                         MS. MAZZ:  Yeah, doesn't make sense to appoint

                    people who don't have an interest in it.

                         MR. BEATTY:  Well, I guess the question -- all

                    right.

                         And at this point since there is going to be no

                    other voting and I am just turning it over to Jim

                    Pecht.  I give it to you to run the meeting to the end.

                         MR. PECHT:  Paul, did you want to go over the

                    scope and the subcommittees and the objectives first?

                         MR. BEATTY:  No, I will let you do that.

                                                                          14



                         MR. PECHT:  This is Jim Pecht with the Access

                    Board.  I assume everyone got a copy of the email.  I

                    can read it out, if you need me to.  "Recommend

                    proposed revisions to the guidelines as may be

                    necessary and appropriate to update, improve or expand

                    the scoping and technical criteria in order to ensure

                    an acceptable level of access for individuals with

                    disabilities, particularly those who have low vision or

                    who are blind."

                         So if there is any discussion on that, I need to

                    hear it now, but I just as soon move on, if not.

                         Hearing none, moving on to report on February 6

                    conference call.  Subcommittee met on February 6 and

                    discussed and listened while staff went over and

                    answered questions about the current requirements in

                    the building standards with the Americans with

                    Disabilities Act with signage with regard to scoping

                    and technical criteria.

                         We also looked briefly at the requirements in the

                    ANSI A.117.1 document with regard to the new

                    requirements regarding the message signs and touched

                    briefly on what is currently required in the vehicle

                    standard, which is pretty slim.  It is on cars that are

                    required to be accessible and signs with priority C and

                    that was about it.

                                                                          15



                         And I then asked to sort of go out and make a list

                    of type of signs they wanted to look at and try to put

                    them in categories.  And asked them to get back to this

                    committee so we could talk about it.  We then had

                    public comment, but there were no comments offered.

                         So for today's meeting, I'm hoping everybody got

                    the list that Paul sent out that I had sort of cobbled

                    together with everybody's homework assignments.  I

                    probably missed some because -- let me step back for a

                    minute.

                         In the future, when we ask folks to send us

                    something or if you want to send us materials that are

                    going to be passed to the committee, we really need it

                    to be in that accessible format or something so we

                    fairly easily make it into accessible format, otherwise

                    we can't really send it out.

                         If you are sending PDFs with huge tables that are

                    very complex, I will probably not be sending those

                    things to the committee because they are really not

                    accessible and really hard to make accessible.

                         We have a lot of photographs, which would -- I

                    know some of them had alt tags and some did not.  We

                    have to do alt tags for just about all of them.  We

                    just did not have the time to do that.

                         There was also an Excel spreadsheet that is not

                                                                          16



                    really accessible either.

                         I guess I will take responsibility for not being

                    more specific when I asked for a list.  What I really

                    wanted was a Word file with a list of words on it.

                    But, anyway, it is not here or there.

                         You have before you a list of categories we put

                    together with minor modifications and a list under each

                    one of those of what I thought the responses from you

                    folks were with regard to the various types of signs

                    and where they should go.

                         What we want to do is basically look through that

                    list and sort of get an idea -- well, actually start

                    making determinations as to what signs should be

                    accessible and what signs don't need to be made

                    accessible.  And if the signs should be accessible,

                    what level of access should be applied to that sign.

                    In other words, visual, tactile and braille altogether,

                    should it be only visual or should it be conveyed as a

                    variable message sign.

                         The last thing is can these type of signs be made

                    accessible and placed appropriately as they should be.

                         So without further ado, I will just sort of start

                    asking folks to give me their opinions about what

                    categories -- did you think the categories work well?

                    Was there something that we missed and should add.

                                                                          17



                         MS. SCHACTER:  I was on the call and then jumped

                    off the call last time because the issue I needed to

                    address was not going to be addressed in that call.

                    I'm still not sure where it fits in.  But under the way

                    the Access Board handles currently hearing

                    accessibility, there is the sole use of an ear with a

                    slash, which is the umbrella symbol for access and does

                    not use the commonly used best practice method of

                    specifically identifying the access available.

                         I'm not sure where this conversation should come

                    up.  And I'm happy to stick it in the right place, but

                    I am not sure where that should be on the agenda.  But

                    it needs to be added to the agenda.

                         For example, if there is an induction loop on the

                    train, if someone does not see the induction loop

                    symbol they would not turn their hearing loop to the T

                    and it would not occur to them that the induction loop

                    is on the train.  Same as the sign language or a light

                    that doesn't go on if there is no announcement.

                         I don't know where that would fit in and I want to

                    put that on the horizon.

                         MS. NELSON:  Janice, is what you are trying to

                    say, like maybe redesign, for redesign of the symbol?

                         MS. SCHACTER:  No, that is not it.  Because the

                    symbol is already being used everywhere, except by the

                                                                          18



                    Access Board.  So when you go to museums and

                    theaters --

                         MS. NELSON:  I personally don't care for that

                    symbol.

                         MS. SCHACTER:  Which symbol?  The ear with the

                    slash?

                         MS. NELSON:  Yeah, the ear with the slash.

                         MS. SCHACTER:  It is not a redesign because the

                    symbols I'm requesting are already designed by the

                    Graphic Artist Guild that was underwritten by the

                    National Endowment for the Arts.  So used over the

                    world.  It is incorporating the specificity that people

                    with hearing loss use but somehow people without

                    hearing loss don't seem to know it exists.  Without it,

                    it is just basically an umbrella symbol that says there

                    is some sort of access; good luck in figuring out what

                    it is.  I can't believe that is what the ADA meant but

                    somehow -- I don't know how we change it.

                         But there has to be specificity, especially if an

                    induction loop will be potentially used because no one

                    will have a clue and then it can't be used and that is

                    pointless.  We need to insert a level of common sense.

                    And I'm happy to send an article that was written by

                    the League of the Hard of Hearing about the various

                    symbols and explaining it.  They are used all over the

                                                                          19



                    world and they are just not in the ADA, and I don't

                    know why.

                         MR. PECHT:  Ms. Schacter, I think what you are

                    asking for a requirement that when these systems were

                    used the appropriate symbol should be placed in the

                    vehicle so that people know that is the system that is

                    being used; is that correct?

                         MS. SCHACTER:  Exactly.  It is kind of inserting

                    common sense.

                         MR. PECHT:  What I would need from you is send us

                    your recommendations:  "These are the symbols, these

                    are systems they denote and I recommend these provide

                    the systems and these are the" --

                         MS. MAZZ:  I think you have that already.  It is

                    the ear with a slash through it with a T in the bottom

                    right-hand corner.

                         MS. SCHACTER:  That is probably the only symbol

                    that will be relevant.  I don't know -- depending on

                    what we agree to, what symbol will be necessary to be

                    added.  And it is kind of the type of thing that at the

                    end when we figure out what access we put it, then we

                    can kind of figure out what symbol should be used.

                         But, yes, Marsha, I think that is probably the

                    most likely symbol to be needed.

                         MR. PECHT:  Okay.  So noted.

                                                                          20



                         MS. SCHACTER:  Thank you.  That is all I needed.

                         MR. PECHT:  Back to the discussion of the

                    categories.  Is everybody happy about the categories?

                    Are they expansive enough?  Inclusive enough?

                         MS. GOLDEN:  I have a question.  I am sorry I

                    don't have full view of the document.  But do we have

                    that interior card numbers and door IDs should be

                    raised character in braille?

                         MS. MAZZ:  We have not gotten to that point yet.

                         MR. PECHT:  We have not gotten to that point.  We

                    are just talking about categories and then we will go

                    to the types of signs under those categories and what

                    level of access should be applied to those signs.

                         MS. GOLDEN:  Okay.  Thank you.

                         MR. SLAUGHTER:  It looks like in some cases there

                    is -- obviously because multiple folks have given signs

                    in categories, it looks like there is a lot of overlap

                    where some of the signs fall into multiple categories.

                    Was that intended?

                         MR. PECHT:  It was probably because I was trying

                    to put together something as quickly as I could.

                         MR. SLAUGHTER:  I understand.

                         MR. PECHT:  Various things got overlapped and

                    those are things that need to be rooted out and changed

                    and all that stuff.

                                                                          21



                         MR. SLAUGHTER:  I think it is important as we move

                    through in looking at the categories and saying, yes,

                    things that fall into these categories need to be made

                    accessible.  There are going to be conditions,

                    obviously, where provided situations -- because

                    everything doesn't apply to every mode.  So we need to

                    be conscious of that.

                         MR. HOFF:  We also in the last meeting discussed

                    the possibility of -- you mentioned at the beginning of

                    the meeting of this call we should consider whether to

                    make raised braille or some other means of

                    accessibility, including, and this is what we discussed

                    in the last conference call, an audible equivalent.  We

                    did not discuss them all, but obviously the conductor

                    can explain what the signs say or what a sign says or

                    we can have, somehow, audio availability, personal

                    audio availability or persons for some new signs

                    perhaps even a broadcast of audible messages.

                         MS. MAZZ:  Ed, I'm going to refer you to the

                    agenda.  We are on Item 5.0 and that is to review the

                    subcommittee suggestions for categories in various type

                    of signs.  The next task you had here is to determine

                    how each type of information should be conveyed,

                    accessible sign or another format.  And that may --

                    that is in another format.

                                                                          22



                         I think Jim is just trying to get some agreement

                    with the categories, at least for now.  We know they

                    are flexible, are working and once that happens we can

                    start working through the list in each category under

                    6.1 to determine how each type of information should be

                    conveyed.  And then, secondly, talk about the technical

                    of raised letters, braille, visual access, all of that

                    that is in the current ADA standard and the need to

                    make some recommendation for some change.

                         MR. HOFF:  My point is only to say as we are going

                    through the list, to keep in the back of our minds that

                    it is not simply a visual sign we are talking about.

                    How to make it also audibly accessible, to keep that in

                    the back of our minds.

                         MS. MAZZ:  Another format.  So it may be that

                    sometimes it won't lend itself to tactile letters.

                         MR. HOFF:  Exactly.  I just wanted everybody to be

                    aware when they see one of these signs, they say, "Wow,

                    we could not do that."

                         MS. MAZZ:  If we could back up to 5.0 and deal

                    with the categories first, I think that will help us to

                    proceed more efficiently.

                         MR. SLAUGHTER:  To that point in the categories, I

                    think that we should have -- I know Jim had broken out

                    nonemergency versus emergency.  But I think that we

                                                                          23



                    should have a limit as simply safety.  It will

                    eliminate some of the overlap because there are just

                    some safety information, the caution type signs or

                    there is not an emergency, there is not an immediate

                    danger but it is a safety advisory.

                         I think from a hierarchy standpoint, if we could

                    have that designation as we move through what we want

                    to require, what we want to leave is some leeway to the

                    authorities.  Safety items I think should be required.

                         So if we could maybe break that out as a category,

                    safety but nonemergency, like category.

                         MS. MAZZ:  Okay.

                         MR. PECHT:  So basically you are talking about

                    things like watch your step, mind the gap, those kinds

                    of signs?

                         MR. SLAUGHTER:  Yes.  So we bracket those.  Those

                    are critical but they are not an emergency, but they

                    will avoid an emergency if they are careful.

                         MR. PECHT:  I will add that category now and break

                    that out on the list.

                         Any other comments on the categories?

                         Not hearing anything, I'm going to assume you are

                    happy with it.

                         MS. PACHECO:  First of all, let me thank everybody

                    for making me chair.  I had no intention of it when we

                                                                          24



                    started.  I thank you all for your support and I hope I

                    can live up to your expectation.

                         My thought on this, I am thinking about redoing

                    your file into an Excel spreadsheet, because I'm

                    thinking it might be sensible to take these categories

                    and then do subcategories under them of the various

                    type.  Might be subways in the inner-city.  Because

                    some of them are going to be different, I think,

                    depending on the type of vehicle.  I think we will have

                    some different issues, perhaps some different needs for

                    the same signs in different types of vehicles.

                         I think we might need to do a subcategory break

                    down.

                         MS. MAZZ:  Terry, I think in the end, all the

                    bullets are merely examples.  We want the categories to

                    be well developed enough so that you can scope to those

                    categories.  So you will have a scoping provision that

                    says something like, you know, "Where directional signs

                    are provided, do this."  So you want to make sure that

                    you have categories that will capture not what is just

                    in your list, but things -- because there is no way in

                    the world in a standard you can list every kind of sign

                    that might possibly be put on a vehicle.

                         MS. PACHECO:  I understand that, Marsha, that is

                    exactly my point.  I think we have gone over the top

                                                                          25



                    here.  I think there is a way we can streamline this.

                         MS. MAZZ:  Yeah.  In the end what you want to come

                    out with are some scoping statements of various

                    categories of signs.

                         MS. PACHECO:  Yeah, absolutely.

                         MR. BEATTY:  Operator, Frank Maldari has indicated

                    that he is muted.  Can you activate his line?  Thank

                    you.

                         OPERATOR:  Frank, your line is open.

                         MR. BEATTY:  Frank, are you there?

                         MR. MALDARI:  Yes, I am.

                         MR. BEATTY:  Sorry for interrupting.  Go ahead,

                    Terry.

                         MS. PACHECO:  I'm finished.  That was my only

                    point.  I just think we can streamline this

                    considerably.

                         MS. GOLDEN:  I think the categories are fine --

                         MR. PECHT:  Is this Marilyn?

                         MS. GOLDEN:  Sorry.  Marilyn Golden.  I think the

                    categories are fine.  At some point we had talked about

                    what comes under which category and certain things

                    should be recategorized.

                         MR. PECHT:  That is perfectly fine.  I put things

                    where I thought.  If I miscategorized them, we can move

                    it from one place to the other.

                                                                          26



                         MS. GOLDEN:  I think it is a great first draft and

                    I think the most important thing in it was to be

                    comprehensive and you have done that and then we can

                    start to, you know, to whatever, edit it a bit.  But

                    thanks for your effort, Jim. sounds like it is not the

                    time for that but just wanted to mention that.

                         MR. PECHT:  Sure.

                         MS. GOLDEN:  According to the agenda, we are

                    looking at how each type of information should be

                    conveyed and what technical provisions should apply,

                    then we go to the categories.  And that might be the

                    right time to say, "Hey, X signs belong in a different

                    category" or it may be before that we should do it.  I

                    don't know.

                         MR. PECHT:  At this point, if you have looked

                    through the list, I guess what I sort of like to see is

                    a discussion of going under each category and sort of

                    giving me a sort of general sign type of what we are

                    talking about and make a list from there as to what --

                    using the specific examples of the different types of

                    signs and see what you guys think would be a sort of

                    good generic way of describing these types of signs

                    under the different categories.

                         If that is acceptable, can we look under way

                    finding signs and have a discussion of what we are

                                                                          27



                    talking about there?

                         MS. MAZZ:  Can you explain what the initials are

                    under everything, Jim?

                         MR. PECHT:  The initials are the initials of the

                    individual who sent me the --

                         MS. MAZZ:  Okay.

                         <<<:  Oh, okay.

                         MR. PECHT:  Brian Slaughter, Ed Hoff --

                         MS. MAZZ:  Okay.  I thought it stood for rail

                    cars.

                         MR. PECHT:  No, no.  Those were the individuals

                    who sent me the homework.  It is just a note for

                    myself.  I apologize for not explaining it.

                         <<<:  I was trying to figure out what AT meant.

                         MS. MAZZ:  So you are starting with the way

                    finding signs?

                         MR. PECHT:  Yes.

                         MR. MALDARI:  A question to Marsha again.

                         MS. MAZZ:  Yes?

                         MR. MALDARI:  Hello?

                         MS. MAZZ:  Yes.

                         MR. MALDARI:  I had a question for Marsha again.

                    The ADA for buildings right now requires essentially

                    only one sign, which is the identification of a room.

                    And the reasoning behind this, correct me if I'm wrong,

                                                                          28



                    because that is the only location where you know a sign

                    is supposed to be.  And when we are looking through all

                    these things, which if you look at the entire list is

                    essentially every detail in the car, you don't

                    necessarily know that a sign exists with a train car

                    number or other information.  So how would you know to

                    look for it?

                         And I know the information may be useful at some

                    point, but it has to be practical and the person has to

                    know to look for a sign before you are going to put a

                    sign there that the person can read.

                         MS. MAZZ:  Frank, I think this goes back to what

                    we were talking about before.  The ADA actually has

                    several different types of signs.  The one you're

                    talking about is a sign with raised letters and

                    braille.  So signs with raised letters and braille go

                    to the left side of the door to a space.  And the door

                    opening gives someone who is blind or has very low

                    vision a cue as to where to look for the sign.  And

                    sometimes the sign is on the space and there are

                    instructions for that, but essentially it is the door

                    to the space that gives that cue.

                         And other types of signs such as signs that give

                    you an arrow and say, "North wing this way" are

                    directional signs.  Those directional signs are not

                                                                          29



                    required to be raised letter or braille, but they are

                    required to have certain visual characteristics for

                    people with low vision who will be using those way

                    finding signs.

                         Does that help?

                         MR. MALDARI:  That helps out a lot because when we

                    are going through these and characterizing them, I am

                    not sure if that is what you meant by accessible sign

                    or another format determined for visual access only.

                    Okay.

                         MS. MAZZ:  Yeah.  There is essentially in my view

                    now three types of accessible signs in the standards

                    that are available to us from existing standards.  From

                    the ADA you get the raised letter and braille signs

                    which also have to have visual components because

                    typically it is the only sign.  And then you have the

                    visually accessible signs for people with low vision.

                    And from ANSI A.117 you get the variable message sign

                    which at the moment are (inaudible).  And the committee

                    has talked about pairing audible messages with certain

                    types of access sign, the variable message sign.  That

                    is sort of a different subject of signs that is already

                    on the committee's list.

                         So it strikes me that you kind of want to go

                    through and look at these various types of signs and

                                                                          30



                    say raised letter and braille, variable message signs,

                    potentially or visual only, or if you have items of

                    another format, such as a particular kind of icon that

                    you can develop to indicate a light switch, for

                    example, above your head or something like that, then

                    you could go there.

                         MS. NELSON:  I have a question for you, Marsha.

                    Talking about the arrows in the hotel, do the arrows

                    have to be raised as well?  The braille with a sign to

                    the room, does that need to be raised as well?

                         MS. MAZZ:  Directional signs are not required to

                    be raised letter in braille.  So if you have a room in

                    a hotel that says "Room 304 to 324 to the left" with a

                    left facing arrow, that is a directional sign and it is

                    not required to be raised letter in braille, because it

                    is typically somewhere in the elevator lobby and it is

                    not a predictable location where a blind person would

                    go to look.

                         That sign does actually meet the requirements for

                    a visually accessible sign, because it has to comply

                    with style requirements as well as contrast

                    requirements.

                         MR. MALDARI:  I have another question for Marsha.

                    For each one of these categories raised letter

                    braille -- access to raised letter braille and visual

                                                                          31



                    access only, there is another list of requirements that

                    is associated with that designation that is listed in

                    703, right?

                         MS. MAZZ:  Correct.

                         MR. MALDARI:  Once you say a visual sign, 5/8"

                    letters and once you say raised letter and braille, you

                    have the spaces laid out.  The concern I have is having

                    all the information could be very useful when you look

                    at 5/8" letters and the signs with braille.  You start

                    to look in a rail car and you run out of space real

                    quickly.  So when we are going through this, you have

                    to be cognizant of this problem.

                         MS. MAZZ:  I would absolutely agree.  You also

                    have to know there are certain common features of rail

                    cars that would enable someone who doesn't take the

                    train every day to locate the signs.  I will give you a

                    good example.

                         The restroom signs, they can go on the door or

                    adjacent to the door.  They will be locateable because

                    you will find that that restroom door opening with your

                    cane or visually if you have low vision.  But there may

                    be other types of signs that if you made it raise

                    letter in braille, the chances of someone actually

                    finding it would be, you know, not so good.

                         MR. MALDARI:  That is a great example and that is

                                                                          32



                    kind of the criteria that I would like to use when we

                    are going through this and deciding whether we have

                    raised letters in braille.

                         MR. CARLSON:  I would like to make an observation.

                    There are people who are quite capable of seeing

                    signage and information how to open a door.  And if

                    they are not looking for it in the right place, they

                    are going to miss it.  The number of people that I see

                    not being able to press the button that says "press

                    door to open door" on the automatic doors on the MARC

                    trains, for example, they are trying to pull a door

                    open that is not going to move until they press that

                    button.  And it is right there but it is not in their

                    field of view and therefore they are missing it.  It is

                    down around hip level rather than down around elbow

                    level.  Just the misplacement of some kind of important

                    information like that will make someone miss it

                    entirely.

                         MR. MALDARI:  That is a good point.  If we wind up

                    having raised lettering on braille signs, a requirement

                    for the location is going to be an important part of it

                    as well.

                         MS. PACHECO:  It absolutely is.  I think one of

                    the most classic examples of mismarking took place back

                    several years ago when they started putting braille

                                                                          33



                    markings on ATMs.  And I know I went to a bank one day,

                    the only one with the braille marking was the one in

                    the drive through.  The one in the lobby didn't have

                    it.  "No, you have to go outside and use the drive

                    through."  Probably because it was the newest one.

                               (Chorus of Laughter)

                         MS. PACHECO:  My point, logic needs to come into

                    play with that.

                         MR. SLAUGHTER:  Terry, we have been applying

                    raised letter and braille signs, right, wrong or

                    otherwise, for, I want to say, 13 years on our cars and

                    it has been an ongoing process as cars went through

                    overhaul and as signs got replaced, replaced the

                    current version.

                         As part of that process we have developed

                    application drawings that they are quite pictorial and

                    I don't know if we want to do this or maybe it would

                    help.  I would be glad to provide those to the

                    committee to use as sort of a benchmark.  You may see

                    things that we have done that were completely off base

                    and I would appreciate that comment as well.

                         But it might just help folks orient what happens

                    in a rail car at the various points; at the entrance,

                    going toward the end of the car, those kinds of things.

                    And, again, it is very pictorial information because we

                                                                          34



                    had to do that so our folks in the field would know

                    where to put signs.  And as part of our daily

                    inspections, some signs fall under the FRA inspections

                    so they need to be able to see the signs, see what it

                    says, see the part numbers, all those things.

                         I would be glad to provide what I think might be a

                    good example, if you think that would be worthwhile, to

                    use as a tool going forward.

                         MR. SHIOTANI:  That sounds like an excellent idea.

                         MS. PACHECO:  I think it would be a great thing.

                    My only question, is there anyone on the committee --

                    there is not a reason to stop.  I'm just trying to see

                    what we can do to deal with that.  Is there anyone on

                    the committee that would need it in an accessible

                    format, other than to enlarge the picture?  Anyone

                    would need an audio description of it?  If not, then I

                    think it would be --

                         MS. MAZZ:  Let me jump in here and say that, you

                    know, our materials end up getting posted to the web

                    for anybody who wants to look at them.  So we may have

                    to have some more discussion about the formats and I

                    would like to have that with Paul and Lisa Fairhall,

                    our general counsel, before we say -- if nobody else

                    needs the format, it is okay to distribute it.

                         MS. PACHECO:  My only question if it is something

                                                                          35



                    we are using as a tool for the committee, it has to go

                    on the website?

                         MS. MAZZ:  I understand that and it is a

                    discussion that we have to have with our General

                    Counsel's Office.

                         MS. PACHECO:  Okay.

                         MS. MAZZ:  Okay?

                         MS. PACHECO:  Okay.

                         MS. MAZZ:  We will do that first thing back in the

                    office.

                         MR. SLAUGHTER:  I would suggest that if we do

                    that, I can strip away anything that would identify it

                    as being particular to Amtrak.  So it would be a

                    typical, if you will, a typical coach or a typical car,

                    something along those lines, if that would help in the

                    discussions with your counsel.

                         MS. MAZZ:  I don't know that is the issue, so

                    much, Blair.  It is whether or not it is accessible

                    format and what it will take to make the format

                    accessible.

                         MR. SLAUGHTER:  Would you me to send you an

                    example to work with?

                         MS. MAZZ:  That would be great.

                         MR. SLAUGHTER:  It will be in a PDF format, but I

                    can export it any way you want it.  I will send you a

                                                                          36



                    page as an example to give you something to work with.

                         MS. MAZZ:  Paul and Lisa and Jim and I and Melissa

                    will talk about what has to go on the website, what has

                    to go on the dot gov site and what format it has to be.

                    I do understand the point there may not be a committee

                    that needs the access, but this is an open process.

                         MR. SLAUGHTER:  I understand.

                         MR. BEATTY:  Is this similar to the two documents

                    you have already sent me?

                         MR. SLAUGHTER:  The documents I sent you were

                    primarily the sign drawings themselves.

                         MR. BEATTY:  All right.

                         MR. SLAUGHTER:  And then we have application

                    drawings as well that draw from those packages.  But

                    what it does, as an example, there is a line drawing, a

                    three-dimensional line drawing of a coach and it shows

                    with call-outs where the signs go and then off to the

                    side it also has a list of material of the part number

                    for our use.  It is very pictorial and I thought --

                    since everything we are dealing with here is -- except

                    for the visual signs, have tangible things in tangible

                    spaces.  So it might be of value.

                         But certainly I will send you guys examples of

                    them and then let me know.  And if it is something we

                    can go forward with, I will put together a package of a

                                                                          37



                    couple of relevant car types for distribution.

                         MS. PACHECO:  Thank you.  Unless it is a few

                    hundred photos, I'm thinking it may not be too

                    difficult.

                         MR. SLAUGHTER:  It would not be a huge document.

                    There are perspective views looking at the ends of the

                    car, there is longitudinal sections of the car so you

                    can see where to put the seat signs and those sort of

                    things and detail information for restrooms and

                    vestibules in the car.

                         But I think it gives a good rounding out of what

                    occurs inside of a rail car.  It will apply certainly

                    to Amtrak because it is our cars, but I think it has a

                    lot of overlap with most of the other folks as well.

                         MR. SHIOTANI:  I think if there is someone on the

                    transit side like subway cars and light rail -- you

                    don't need as many.  You don't have restrooms you don't

                    have cafe cars or whatever.  But it does seem like if

                    there is anybody on the committee that has access to

                    some of the different kinds of signage that applies to

                    light rail cars and subway cars, they are different,

                    some basic information, way finding information

                    probably is necessary.  But, again, all subway cars

                    different from light rail cars, but having some

                    examples might be helpful if anybody has access to

                                                                          38



                    charts or, you know, signage, instructions that Blair

                    is describing from subway cars.

                         <<<:  I did that for the commuter rail cars and I

                    apologize.  I'm going to do my best -- certainly it

                    would be easier to do the light rail cars.  I will take

                    pictures of interior and exterior light rail cars and

                    signage and I will do my best to give a narrative

                    description of each one of those signs and send it

                    along to Jim.  Shouldn't be that many on the light

                    rail.

                         MS. NELSON:  Quick interjection and I apologize.

                    I had to step out for just a minute there, but I wanted

                    to comment on what was going on in terms of the

                    different signage for transit.  I'm wondering -- the

                    thing that is kind of nagging at me in terms of

                    standardization, I'm wondering -- how do I say this?

                         For example, people who use wheelchairs on the

                    trains, I believe there is going to be standardization

                    with that type of thing, for example.  So I would think

                    whether it is a subway or a bus or whatever, the

                    transit situation might be that is occurring, the

                    signage is going to be the same in a lot of areas.  And

                    if there is not, we can, you know, try to create that

                    uniformity as well.

                         MR. SHIOTANI:  This is something that I should

                                                                          39



                    know but I don't know.  My recollection is that there

                    is different accessible seating positions, signage for

                    rail cars versus light rail and subway versus buses?

                    Maybe the Access Board person, Marsha or somebody --

                    because on buses you are supposed to be secured but on

                    rail cars and light rail and subways you don't need to

                    be secured?  Is that --

                         MR. PECHT:  Yeah, field vehicles make turns so

                    there are requirements for tie-downs and securement and

                    seat belts and things like that.  To my knowledge, in

                    the current standard there is not any signage

                    requirement designating those locations.  The only

                    signage in buses, rail, any type of rail you are

                    talking about is basically inside the car.  To my

                    knowledge, there is the sign which says, "These are

                    priority seats for people with disabilities."  And it

                    doesn't tell you what to say about them, doesn't

                    require the international symbol that is used for those

                    seats.  To my knowledge, that is pretty much it.

                         As far as the securement location on a bus or a

                    wheelchair location on a rail car, there is not a

                    signage requirement to label those as such because it

                    is pretty obvious what they are.

                         MS. NELSON:  Just interjecting, yeah, I do know

                    the buses require some sort of security but when

                                                                          40



                    looking at the rail cars, I think -- I don't know if I

                    recall seeing the priority seating.  Anyway, I don't

                    recall the exact wording, but there is something.

                         But people tend to ignore that and I don't know if

                    maybe there is a need to increase the font size on the

                    print so that it is not just for in person with the

                    disability to see it, but it is for any passenger to

                    see it well.  So it is made clear that is not for the

                    average traveler.

                         MR. TALBOT:  If I can just chime in on the

                    priority seating signage.  I'm not sure -- I'm actually

                    looking at part 38 under DOT regs to see if it is

                    listed.  But almost all rail cars do have it and I

                    think it is really important that they not only be in

                    place, but they are accessible so everyone knows what

                    they are, whether it is the transfer seat or the clear

                    space for persons who want to stay in the occupied

                    device.

                         Right now it says "folded wheelchair."  It has to

                    be a space for that adjacent or near proximity to the

                    transfer seat.  That should also be signed because

                    otherwise it becomes stowage location for luggage in

                    inner-city application or just a place wherever people

                    would be in a commuter rail application.

                         MS. SCHACTER:  I have to tell you I have always

                                                                          41



                    seen the garbage and the luggage in that location.

                         MR. TALBOT:  I couldn't agree with you more.

                         MS. SCHACTER:  I have never been on a train where

                    it is not a place for the cardboard box and luggage.  I

                    can tell you I didn't know until these calls and this

                    committee that it was not for that space.

                         MR. TALBOT:  I completely agree with you.  And I'm

                    not suggesting signage will fix that.  But it does at

                    least offer more information to the riders about where

                    a space is that is supposed to be a priority space or a

                    transfer location or something like that and then

                    hopefully the other stuff can follow.

                         MS. NELSON:  I guess what I'm trying to say, I

                    would like to see more uniformity with signage.

                         For example, with the priority seating, as we

                    already discussed, whether it is subway or light rail,

                    that it says the same thing, it looks the same way, I

                    think it will increase awareness, not just with the

                    consumers who have disabilities, but it will provide

                    more information to the average nondisabled rider to

                    understand exactly what is going on and what is

                    expected of them.  I think if the uniformity is

                    occurring in all of the transportations, then they will

                    become more aware of what things mean, there won't be a

                    guessing game.  They will know what it means because

                                                                          42



                    they will see it whether they are on a light rail,

                    subway, bus, Amtrak, whatever the case may be, it is

                    all the same signage.  Does that make more sense?

                         <<<:  Absolutely.

                         MR. MALDARI:  The same thing and being exactly the

                    same sign is not exactly the same thing.  You do want a

                    clarification on what priority seating means because it

                    is not always clear to the average person because they

                    want to use that space.

                         If you make it clearer, that is fine, but to

                    define the exact wording and size of the sign limits

                    where you can put it.  So if you want to make a rule, a

                    rule saying you need to add some clarity in these words

                    of who it is used for is a good thing.  But putting too

                    many requirements and restrictions creates a problem

                    when you go to implement the sign, put it in the car

                    when you can't find a place to put it.  So consistency

                    is good, but you have to have some flexibility so that

                    people can do what they are trying to do in a space

                    that they have.

                         MR. PECHT:  I think that's part of the analysis

                    you folks need to look at when you look at these signs.

                    In other words, is this a sign we want to make a

                    specific requirement of what it actually says, that and

                    nothing else, or do we just want to give the technical

                                                                          43



                    requirements of what the sign looks like with regard

                    to -- doesn't have to be visual.  What is the minimum

                    character height size.  Those kinds of things.  And let

                    whoever is doing the sign for whatever type of vehicle,

                    just describe the text, let them do that.

                         The same thing with regards to going back to

                    Frank's original question about braille.  You have to

                    be able to find braille in order to use it.  If you

                    can't find it, it is not usable.  And there is no sense

                    requiring a sign to be braille when it can't be found.

                         One of the questions you have to ask, if we are

                    going to require this sign -- this is important enough

                    to be raised and brailled and tactile, is there a

                    location we can put it that is consistent -- can be

                    found on a consistent basis and is that possible.  It

                    may not be doable in certain circumstances for certain

                    types of signs.

                         If you have a requirement to put a description of

                    how to remove a window on the window, that is a

                    question you have to make.  Is there a consistent

                    location.  If it is important enough to put in braille,

                    should you do that or not.

                         Those are the kinds of analysis that you have to

                    look at on these different types of signs.  This is the

                    type of sign, directional sign that can be located

                                                                          44



                    anywhere.  Therefore it is not really easily done as

                    far as finding the thing so it is probably not a good

                    sign to apply the various braille requirements to.  But

                    the visual requirement is going to be important.  You

                    still may want to specify certain types of visual

                    signs, the height range, so it can be in certain height

                    ranges so you can see it.  Someone was talking about

                    the automatic door sign.  If it is down low where I

                    can't see it, it should be in my view range and what is

                    my view range and should it be placed there.

                         That is the kind of analysis I hope the committee

                    will apply to these type of signs.

                         MR. SLAUGHTER:  If you --

                         MS. NELSON:  David would like to make a comment

                    too.

                         MR. SLAUGHTER:  Go ahead.

                         MS. NELSON:  You go ahead.

                         MR. SLAUGHTER:  There are some issues where excess

                    signs where APTA and the FRA have determined where they

                    need to occur on exit doors and they occur typically

                    higher up.  And then down fairly close to the floor,

                    the assumption being in a smoke filled car someone is

                    crawling out.

                         As we look at the placement of these things, they

                    are not always -- you are not always as logical as you

                                                                          45



                    would think in a normal situation, but they are

                    perfectly logical in possibly an emergency situation.

                         And it may be that we end up adding more

                    duplicates.  Right now if you look indoor on the coach,

                    the exit sign occurs at least in two places.  Maybe

                    there is sanity to having it occur in a third place so

                    it fulfills all of its functions, both for emergency

                    conditions and for the people who are visually

                    impaired.

                         <<<:  That has got to be part of analysis, a

                    requirement of the rule that requires a sign to be in a

                    specific location and that location is really not

                    conducive of being accessible.  Maybe that is a sign we

                    want to duplicate someplace else or not have to meet

                    requirement of certain accessibility issues.

                         MS. GOLDEN:  On the issue of -- I mean, I do think

                    that Jim and -- Jim is right, that certain signs need

                    have location specified and size specified.  I think

                    Blair is right to the extent we need to consider the

                    limitation in train cars so that analysis can happen.

                         I wanted to say on something discussed a few

                    minutes ago about so-called priority seating signs.  I

                    think the bus is an interesting context to compare this

                    to.  It is not exactly the same, but it has a lot of

                    parallels.

                                                                          46



                         DOT ADA regulation requires pretty specific

                    language for priority seating signs.  And the

                    language -- when a person with a disability needs those

                    seats, they are asked to move.  And so while you get

                    people that won't move, to the citizenship commitment

                    that, you know, many and hopefully most riders will

                    move.

                         I don't remember -- I don't think the DOT

                    specifies a size.  Those letters were the size of, you

                    know, 12 point type on a page.  It would not be visible

                    on a bus to passengers.  It has to be a reasonable size

                    too.  I don't know how much we specify that.  DOT did

                    not have to specify that to buses, I don't think, to

                    get the signs usable.

                         The spaces on the train cars, I agree always

                    occupied by boxes and luggage, should have a similar

                    system.  There may not be a wheelchair user that needs

                    it, but when there is, that space needs to be vacated

                    for that purpose.  That is probably the main mandated

                    reason that the space is there.  It seems it is the job

                    of the ADAAG to specify the sign for that, to

                    underscore the priority seating is important.

                         MS. MAZZ:  Essentially what the ADAAG requirements

                    currently say is that each vehicle contains signs that

                    indicate the current seats are priority seats for

                                                                          47



                    persons with disabilities and other passengers should

                    make such seats available for those who would like to

                    use them.

                         Then there is second provision that characters

                    require on paragraph, A, shall have the height ratio of

                    3:5 and 1:1 and a (inaudible) ratio -- very similar to

                    the ADAAG signs that we all know and love, and 5/8-inch

                    wide spacing.

                         So basically it is the visual sign criteria.  It

                    is not the raised letter and raised sign criteria,

                    however.  That is the current requirement.  Just point

                    of information.

                         MS. GOLDEN:  Thank you.

                         MR. PECHT:  Can we go back to the categories and

                    we will just start looking at those a little bit.

                         MR. HART:  The FRA could share the required

                    signage and I would ask if they are required by the

                    standards that would be helpful.

                         MR. SLAUGHTER:  Chris, I think that is a good

                    idea.  The sign application drawings that I would

                    provide will show signs that are governed by the FRA

                    and APTA.  But I can also dig that technical data up as

                    well and provide that to the committee e.

                         MR. HAR:  Technical standards of DOT.  So we

                    should be aware of what that is.

                                                                          48



                         MR. SLAUGHTER:  Okay.

                         MR. HART:  Thank you.

                         MR. PECHT:  You look at the first category and let

                    it give you an idea of how I would sort of look as

                    these categories.  I would like way finding signs that

                    are directional and informational and say these are

                    signs which are placed at various locations in the car

                    to give me direction or location of a specific thing or

                    to another car; the exit doors at the end the car, the

                    restroom is that way with an arrow, fire extinguishers

                    are found in the rear section under the last seat.

                    Those are the kinds of things I would look at as far as

                    informational signs and I would say they should

                    probably have the visual requirements applied to them,

                    probably not the tactile requirements.  I don't know

                    there is anything in here that would warrant.  That is

                    the kind of analysis I would do for that first

                    category.

                         How do you guys --

                         MR. MICHEL:  I think the discussion we were having

                    last week was as far as these way finding signs having

                    an icon, being able to visualize exactly what they are.

                    For example, the stairs, I know Amtrak signs do have

                    the staircase in the -- I guess as a small icon.  Now

                    that icon is not per the, I guess, the signage or the

                                                                          49



                    size requirements for an icon, but I think those should

                    be considered for all applications in all transit

                    areas.

                         MR. PECHT:  Remember that the pictogram

                    requirements in the building standard, the size

                    requirements only apply to pictograms that are part of

                    a sign that is required to be raised in braille and in

                    a specific location.

                         Like a women's room sign pictogram is an

                    international symbol.  Can be pretty much any size you

                    want it to be and placed any location you want it to be

                    because it gives you information about the space.

                    Doesn't designate a permanent room of space.

                         Again, that is sort of a level of detail we can

                    get down into after you get the general idea of what we

                    are looking for and say, okay, the way finding sign if

                    you use a pictogram or icon, what is an appropriate

                    size?  Do you want to designate that?  A minimum of 2"

                    or 1", depending on the visual range you will be

                    viewing it from.

                         MR. MICHEL:  Unfortunately I think each sign would

                    be a case-by-case study depending on how big the font

                    is because stairs is only six letters long versus

                    emergency exit.

                         MR. PECHT:  But I may not want to make the

                                                                          50



                    requirement apply to those types of icons.

                         MR. MICHEL:  Yeah.

                         MR. PECHT:  That is a decision the committee has

                    to make, all I'm saying.

                         MR. MICHEL:  How does everybody else feel about

                    that application?

                         MS. MAZZ:  So you would apply the pictogram

                    requirements to a sign that a (inaudible) to a stair

                    and point to any direction, not at the stair itself.

                    You are not labeling the stair.  But you would say

                    "this way for stairs," is that my understanding?

                         MR. MICHEL:  That is correct.  I do think current

                    Amtrak signs already detail this.  I believe there are

                    a few signs on the Superliner that already have this.

                    So I think when Blair provides the committee with the

                    location sign, that should be visible as well.

                         MR. MALDARI:  I think you have to be careful with

                    the specific location in the rail car.  There may not

                    be a consistency with where to put the sign.  Look at

                    what he has and look at the car design.  And this goes

                    for a lot of suggestions.  Make sure we can put these

                    in a consistent location so they can be identified

                    somehow before we say they have to be raised letter and

                    braille, specific visual signs or something else.  But

                    raised letter and braille should be located signs and

                                                                          51



                    have to be consistently located in order to be useful.

                         MS. MAZZ:  Jim, we are getting close to the time

                    where we probably need to take public comment, if there

                    is any, and maybe begin to wrap up.

                         What I would suggest is you have some volunteers

                    who have said that they will try and round up some

                    additional materials.  Maybe there is someone on the

                    committee who is willing to kind of take a first stab

                    at organizing the information that we have, developing

                    categories with recommendations for which types of

                    signs should be accessible in accordance with which

                    type of, you know, raised braille versus visual, if

                    provided.  In other words, you probably are not going

                    to require a variable message sign, but if provided you

                    would want it to comply with -- you would want it to be

                    accessible.  That kind of thing.

                         Is there somebody on the committee that wants to

                    take that first stab and let that get circulated to the

                    subcommittee to chew on?

                         MS. PACHECO:  Am I on?

                         MS. MAZZ:  You're on.

                         MS. PACHECO:  Okay.  I can't hear myself.  My ears

                    are plugged.

                         MS. MAZZ:  I hear your cold.  It is painful.

                         MS. PACHECO:  On my end too, unfortunately.

                                                                          52



                         I would be more than willing to work on it.  If

                    anyone else that wants to give me input, I would love

                    to get it.  If someone who wants to contact me

                    directly, and we will work on it as a little

                    subcommittee, my email address is

                    TERRYPACH@verizon.net.  I would be more than happy to

                    put something together.  If we want to be a sub

                    subcommittee we can put something together before the

                    next call.

                         I would like to see us do that and try to get

                    things lined up and we can either split up in small

                    groups and take a section.  Maybe it is just me.  I

                    just don't feel right now that is manageable to pull

                    apart.

                         <<<:  I agree.

                         MS. PACHECO:  I will do my part to see if I can

                    make it this way.  No reflection on you, Jim.  I am

                    impressed you got it this far.

                         I would be happy to get started on it and anyone

                    who has thoughts and include it in, we can start

                    working on it.

                         MS. GOLDEN:  I don't like to ask other people to

                    do work, but here I go.

                         Gary, are you able to help?

                         MR. TALBOT:  Absolutely.  I would be more than

                                                                          53



                    happy to.

                         MS. GOLDEN:  Good.  Thank you, Gary.

                         MR. TALBOT:  I can work with Terry and we can

                    certainly work with anyone else who would want to work

                    with that.

                         <<<:  That would be me, Jim.

                         MR. SLAUGHTER:  I will volunteer.

                         MS. PACHECO:  I was hoping you would say that.

                         MR. SLAUGHTER:  In our existing files we may have

                    something like that already broken out that may help as

                    well.

                         MR. PECHT:  I will take as one of my homework

                    assignments to try to get a strawman table with

                    categories and items to sort of check off or add to or

                    put in and give it to you guys as soon as we can.  If

                    we can get dug out from under this snow and back to the

                    office.

                         MR. SLAUGHTER:  Jim, I am the guilty one that sent

                    you the spreadsheet, the Excel spreadsheet.  When I

                    started putting that together, I was sort of thinking

                    along the lines of what Terry was describing using

                    categories to drop them in categories both from a

                    signage category and also potentially into required

                    versus recommended, and segregated them by modes as

                    well in sort of a graphic way.

                                                                          54



                         So feel free to plagiarize any of that information

                    if it helps as a starting point.

                         MS. MAZZ:  Jim, you can forward that to Terry.

                         MR. PECHT:  I will do that.

                         MR. SLAUGHTER:  I already forwarded what I had

                    done to Terry as well, since she mentioned the Excel.

                         MR. TALBOT:  Jim, if you can send me whatever you

                    want, either you or Terry, I would appreciate it.

                         MR. PECHT:  There will be a group email.

                         MR. SLAUGHTER:  Gary, the information I was

                    discussing before with the cars, I will send to you

                    since we are on the same team.  There is no worry.

                         MR. TALBOT:  Sounds good.  Thank you.

                         MS. PACHECO:  Blair, if you wouldn't mind sending

                    me that Excel spreadsheet that might be a good place to

                    start from.  Most Excel spreadsheets can be made pretty

                    accessible these day.

                         MR. SLAUGHTER:  It is already in your email,

                    Terry.

                         MS. PACHECO:  Okay.  Thank you.

                         MR. PECHT:  Is everybody happy with that direction

                    that we are going at the moment?

                         <<<:  Yes.

                         <<<:  I am.

                         MR. PECHT:  All right.  At this point, I think I

                                                                          55



                    will open it up and ask for public comment.

                         OPERATOR:  It will just take one moment, sir.

                         At this time anyone interested in providing public

                    comment, please press star 1 on your touchtone phone.

                         Once again, anyone interested in providing public

                    comment, press star 1.

                         We are getting no response.

                         Again, anyone interested in providing public

                    comment, press star 1.

                         MR. PECHT:  Okay, Operator.  Thank you, very much.

                         Committee, is there any other comments for the

                    good of the cause before we adjourn.

                         OPERATOR:  All lines are open and interactive.

                    You may respond.

                         MR. ALTOM:  I would like to first off say thank

                    you to Jim for running the meeting for us today and

                    also to Marsha and Lisa and yourself for all your

                    support that you give this group.

                         And, Terry, thank you for being the subcommittee

                    chair.  I have a whole list of thank yous, like the

                    Oscars.  And I would like to thank the sub

                    subcommittee, Gary, Jim and Blair.  I just want to make

                    sure I publicly thank you guys for the hard work and

                    input you have given to this project.  So thank you,

                    very much.

                                                                          56



                         MS. MAZZ:  Nice note to end on.

                         MR. SHIOTANI:  Again, it was the purpose from New

                    Jersey Transit that said that they could do some

                    pictures of light rail cars.  It may be helpful to get

                    those sent to the subcommittee.

                         MR. HOFF:  I was thinking the same thing.  I will

                    take care of that.  I will send it to anybody who wants

                    to see and wants to see the photograph that I will send

                    out.

                         MR. SHIOTANI:  I want to make sure other rails,

                    other than inner-city, are covered.

                         <<<:  Absolutely.

                         MR. SLAUGHTER:  A question for the Access Board

                    folks, what are the requirements for a sub subcommittee

                    for accessibility?

                         MS. MAZZ:  I'm going to give you the same answer

                    we gave before and we are going to talk to Lisa.

                         MR. SLAUGHTER:  I just wanted to make sure if we

                    were sending information around, that we were not

                    shortcutting processes that could not be shortcut.

                         MS. MAZZ:  Some questions are better not asked.

                         MR. SLAUGHTER:  Yeah, okay.

                         MS. MAZZ:  Sometimes it is always handy to ask for

                    something on a personal basis.

                         MR. SLAUGHTER:  Understood.  I yield to the chair.

                                                                          57



                         MR. PECHT:  I'm going to go out on a limb and call

                    it us a task group of the subcommittee and call it a

                    day.  And with that, if there are tho other comments --

                         MS. PACHECO:  I have one other issue I wanted to

                    bring up.

                         On our next call can anyone think that maybe we

                    should look as an agenda item at additional modes of

                    signage, like I-Phone apps, beyond large braille and

                    raised lettering; the things that might be available

                    and they are kind of coming down the line where we are

                    getting far more moveable electronic messaging, that

                    kind of thing?  We need not ignore it, I guess my

                    concern with it.

                         MR. MICHEL:  I would second that just because

                    there are so many options nowadays to make things

                    accessible, audio/visually as well as auditively.  It

                    would be something to bring into consideration.  It

                    might be of use if we can get some input from members

                    of the public who may have hearing or who may be using

                    applications already in use.  I don't know where that

                    documentation would be found or how we can get input

                    within the next week to discuss this, but I do think it

                    is worthwhile.

                         MS. MAZZ:  I would like to caution you.  You need

                    to stay within parameters of what the Access Board has

                                                                          58



                    control over and what we don't have control over.  Our

                    guidelines are the physical environment, the structure

                    itself of the vehicle, not to programs or services that

                    are provided within the vehicle.

                         Now, it may be that in order to do that you need

                    WiFi or something, you know, and there may be some

                    working together of those things.  But the Access

                    Board, I don't think, can go so far as to say, you

                    know, "Amtrak will develop an app."  You see what I'm

                    saying?

                         MR. MICHEL:  I definitely agree with that.  I

                    think that from the standpoint if we are making

                    regulations for the next 10 maybe 30 years, I think it

                    would be naive to think we are not going to think about

                    these things.

                         MR. SLAUGHTER:  I might interject an example.  For

                    years we had large signs on our bulkheads that had all

                    the pertinent emergency information about how to open

                    windows and those kinds of things.  And back, oh, in

                    maybe '96, '98 along in there, Amtrak and the FRA came

                    to an agreement where we removed those signs with the

                    caveat that we provide the seatback cards you find on

                    the aircraft.  That was done to make sure the messages

                    were distributed more thoroughly through the train, not

                    to the first couple of rows of seats that could see the

                                                                          59



                    sign.  It is a little odd that you have to go

                    somewhere --

                         MS. MAZZ:  Perfect example of where the line gets

                    drawn between the Access Board's authority and DOT's

                    authority.

                         MR. SLAUGHTER:  Right.

                         MS. MAZZ:  The Access Board can require the sign

                    at the bulkhead, but we can't require the seat back

                    sign.

                         MS. FAIRHALL:  I want to agree with Marsha's

                    comment.  It would be in the purview of the committee

                    to make a recommendation that these other things be

                    (inaudible), but it is not really within the

                    jurisdiction of the advisory committee.

                         MS. MAZZ:  The committee could say, for example,

                    that all this information should be accessible on the

                    train and could recommend that there be no signage

                    requirement if there is an FRA requirement to provide

                    this information via an app or some other mechanism.

                    But we can't compel FRA or DOT.  We can't require a

                    seat back sign that is out of our jurisdiction.

                         MR. SLAUGHTER:  Is there any logic in treating

                    some of these things almost like an equivalent

                    facilitation but not that complex?  If we say from our

                    committee here that we should have this information,

                                                                          60



                    this grouping of information, it can either be

                    presented in a static mounted sign or as an option it

                    can be presented in another mode, in another form that

                    is equivalent and equivalently distributed on the

                    vehicle as far as the Access Board is concerned.

                         MS. MAZZ:  Equivalent facilitation is already

                    there for the whole rule.  So you can already do that.

                         MR. TALBOT:  Wouldn't the Access Board have

                    jurisdiction like, let's say there is an app that is

                    provided and it is specific to the train, whether it is

                    for buying tickets or information about the travel, the

                    route or something like that, if that is provided,

                    couldn't the Access Board then say that that has to be

                    accessible and define what accessible is for that

                    device or that thing?  It is just another thing, isn't

                    it?

                         MS. MAZZ:  I don't think so.  It is more akin to a

                    service or a program.  But we can have some discussions

                    with our friends at FRA and see where they would like

                    to draw that line.

                         MR. TALBOT:  I mean they do that on -- we do that

                    on websites today, right?

                         MS. MAZZ:  We don't regulate the websites through

                    the ADA.

                         MR. TALBOT:  Okay.  I will hold off.  And offline

                                                                          61



                    I will ask you.

                         MR. HOFF:  I was thinking of these things earlier.

                    It needs a larger discussion.  I am thinking perhaps

                    audio program.  Say for orientation purposes, I want to

                    know where the bathrooms are and where I am relative to

                    exit signs.  If an audio program can be provided on

                    board and available through an earphone jack at my seat

                    or, as an alternative, through some other audible means

                    through a phone app or something, if we type in the

                    vehicle somehow, if it is available for the vehicle

                    without you having an app or a phone necessarily, or

                    you have earplugs.

                         MS. MAZZ:  That is a possibility.

                         MR. HOFF:  The audio program itself we can

                    probably require that, but how it is exported, we can

                    talk about it further.

                         MS. MAZZ:  Like an ATM now.  We say you have to

                    have a speech enabled ATM and --

                         MR. HOFF:  Exactly.

                         MR. PECHT:  It is 2:52.  Unless there are any

                    other comments I would recommend we adjourn.

                         <<<:  I second that.

                         MR. PECHT:  Hearing none, thank you, very much,

                    for spending your time today.  We will get our little

                    task group together and try to get you something as

                                                                          62



                    soon as we possibly can.  So thank you, very much.

               (Whereupon, at 2:55 p.m. the meeting was adjourned)