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 DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY

 APPLIANCE STANDARDS AND RULEMAKING

 FEDERAL ADVISORY COMMITTEE MEETING

 Department of Energy

 950 L'Enfant Plaza, S.W.

 Washington, D.C.

 Wednesday, August 7, 2013

 10:10 a.m.

Reported by: Christine Allen,

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1 A P P E A R A N C E S

2 FACILITATOR:

3 Neil Eisner, Navigant Consulting

4

5 PARTICIPANTS:

6 Karim Amrane, Air-Conditioning, Heating, and

7 Refrigeration Institute (AHRI)

8 Ashley Armstrong, U.S. Department of Energy

9 Timothy Ballo, EarthJustice

10 Laura Barhydt, U.S. Department of Energy

11 Jeff Bauman, National Refrigeration & Air-Conditioning

12 John Cymbalsky, U.S. Department of Energy

13 Mary Dane, Traulsen

14 Laura Degitsz, Navigant Consulting

15 Paul L. Doppel, Mitsubishi Electric US, Inc.

16 Mark Fly, AAON Heating & Cooling Products

17 John Gorman, CSA Group

18 Charles Hon, True Manufacturing

19 Jill Hootman, Trane

20 Marshall Hunt, Pacific Gas and Electric Company

21 John Hurst, Hex Technologies, Inc.

22 Tom Johnson, Daikin McQuay
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1 PARTICIPANTS:

2 Jeff Kleiss, Lochinvar

3 Michael Kojak, Underwriters Laboratories LLC

4 Aris Marantan, Ph.D., U.S. Department of Energy

5 Karen Meyers, Rheem Manufacturing Co.

6 Peter Molvie, Cleaver-Brooks Product Development

7 Frank Myers, PVI Industries, Inc.

8 Michael Rivest, Navigant Consulting

9 Harvey Sachs, American Council for an Energy-Efficient

10 Economy

11 Ronald Shebik, Hussmann Corporation

12 Judd Smith, CSA Group

13 Frank Stanonik, Air-Conditioning, Heating, and

14 Refrigeration Institute (AHRI)

15 Mike Stem, Intertek

16 Phillip Stephens, Heat Transfer Products

17 Rusty Tharp, Goodman Manufacturing

18 Bill Tritsis, AHRI

19 Collin Weber, Navigant Consulting

20 Robert J. Whitwell, Carrier Corporation

21 Wes Wostal, ClimateMaster

22
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1 P R O C E E D I N G S

2 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So we had a few

3 remaining issues from last week. One of them was the

4 motors. Has everyone had a chance to go back and think

5 about it, look at their products, figure out what the

6 impact would be?

7 MR. THARP: This is Rusty with Goodman. What

8 we found out --

9 MS. BARHYDT: Just a second.

10 MR. EISNER: Whoever is on the phone, mute

11 your phone, unless you're talking to us. Okay, Rusty.

12 MR. THARP: Had a discussion with Regal

13 Beloit on the issue, and, again, industry likes the

14 general concept, but we do need to dig into some more

15 details because most of our products, the motors that

16 are used in our products are air-over motors, which are

17 not subject to the regulation, to my understanding.

18 And the motors that we use, also, there is

19 not a specified test procedure on how to determine the

20 efficiency of the motors. So one motor manufacturer

21 may test with very minimal air running over the motor

22 as you're doing their dyno test to determine
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1 efficiency. And another motor manufacturer may run

2 higher. And the more air you put over it, the more

3 efficient it is.

4 And also, what isn't defined yet clearly is,

5 at what point do you rate efficiency of the motor? Do

6 you take the efficiency at the operating condition of

7 the test as applied, or do you rate it -- main plate

8 efficiency?

9 Those are discussions that we need to have to

10 make sure that we are all on a level playing field and

11 that we all do things the same way. Maybe what the

12 conversation is that -- what would probably be a good

13 idea is to have a telephone conference with some of the

14 motor manufacturers, potentially next week if possible,

15 so that we can --

16 (Missing audio.)

17 MR. THARP: This may be adequate for minimum

18 certification, but we are seeing -- as the equipment

19 becomes more proficient, we are seeing the differences

20 in part load efficiency, for example, between PSCs and

21 PCMs.

22 If we proceed along the lines DOE is
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1 suggesting, it's an -- through the issue of minimum

2 standards -

3 (Missing audio.)

4 MR. EISNER: Does DOE want to speak to that,

5 or do you want to talk first?

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: No, no. Go ahead.

7 MR. RIVEST: I have a question on these air8 over motors. This applies to a special environment or

9 --

10 MR. THARP: This is Rusty Tharp with Goodman.

11 No, it's most -- they indicated that most of their

12 customers, the typical motor carrier, there are

13 applications in our products where you may use a motor

14 that's not rated for air-over. So there is a mix.

15 And, you know, one of the things that would need to be

16 discussed is, what happens if the base motor is an air17 over motor, if the higher horsepower motors are not

18 air- over. Is this really -- you know, what is the

19 proper comparison for that situation?

20 Also, he indicated that the rulemaking for

21 the 10 CFR 441-446 with fractional horsepower motors

22 does not include PSC, which pretty much everything the
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1 manufacturers have less than five tons, the base motor

2 would be a PSC motor. So there's -- I'm a mechanical,

3 not an electrical, engineer. I know there's different

4 types of motors. I know there's other types of motors

5 that are included in 446, not the PSC.

6 There are some issues that -- between the

7 test process, the rating process. For example, a

8 manufacturer that's name-plated on the motor, the

9 manufacturer can request a motor -- an equipment

10 manufacturer can request the motor manufacturer to put

11 a specific rating on the motor.

12 You can go off of the horsepower nameplate,

13 you can go off of horsepower. The manufacturer could

14 try to get around the system by using a lower

15 horsepower rating on the base motor, and you put your

16 nameplate rating on the higher motors. So you want to

17 make sure, you know, you've taken care of -- we want to

18 make sure we're on the same playing field, level

19 playing field. But those are issues that need to be

20 addressed.

21 Again, we like the overall concept, because

22 it gets us to where we would like to be. But there are
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1 just some issues that need to be worked out. And

2 that's basically what -- in the three business days

3 we've had since the end of our last meeting, that's

4 basically what we found out.

5 MR. WHITWELL: I think the issue that you're

6 referring to, though, is mostly on the -- tends to be

7 on the smaller range of commercial packaged equipment.

8 At a certain size, you get into using the general

9 purpose motor, which usually they have a proper

10 procedure and they do have a nameplate.

11 They of course are on -- the issues on the 46

12 and 58 frame motors, they are smaller --

13 MR. THARP: It would probably be -- well,

14 it's definitely less than 55,000 definitely had the

15 issue. And probably a small commercial probably does.

16 A large commercial may, and the very large does not.

17 When you get --

18 MR. WHITWELL: A very large commercial is

19 what?

20 MR. THARP: Large commercial is I think

21 greater than 10 or 20.

22 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. So --
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1 MR. THARP: Ten to 20 range. Some may, some

2 may not. If you get bigger than 20, almost everything

3 is per the NEMA tables.

4 MR. FLY: This is Mark Fly with AAON. And in

5 particular where this occurs is fans --

6 MR. THARP: Yes.

7 MR. FLY: -- in the smaller products. At

8 least that's where a lot of the base motors and other

9 things are being applied as alternate designs. So, I

10 mean, it is a small issue, but it is an issue because

11 that whole part of the industry is evolving very

12 quickly.

13 MR. SACHS: Mark, this is Harvey. Mark and

14 Rusty and others, it has been my impression that the

15 size ranges in which ECMs are market competitive is --

16 I mean, price competitive keeps moving up into the

17 horsepower range.

18 MR. THARP: The conversation we had with

19 Regal Beloit was that they -- some of the competition

20 rate goes up to five horsepower, whereas, you know, one

21 horse is sort of -- in for some time, as you indicated

22 it's got that flat horse. Basically, it's a European -
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1 -

2 (Simultaneous discussion.)

3 MR. EISNER: Other comments? Reactions?

4 MR. WHITWELL: Just one other comment. I

5 agree with Rusty. We definitely need to identify how

6 we are going to establish the efficiency level on this.

7 We just need a process for that. I think that's the

8 thing we need to resolve. The process looks good, or

9 the proposal on how to do it looks good. We understand

10 it.

11 I've had some discussion with my -- with the

12 other engineers back in the office, and we understand

13 it. Now we've got to identify how we're going to

14 establish those efficiency levels.

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, I mean, we can do this a

16 couple of different ways. One is you guys can

17 individually talk to your manufacturers and see if you

18 want to come up with a solution. DOE can independently

19 try to come up with a solution. And probably the best

20 way is us to all get in a room, invite the motor

21 manufacturers to have a side meeting -- we can do it by

22 phone or whatever, or in person, however, and talk
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1 through this -- about where there are holes, where we

2 need to address it, what we're trying to do, and see if

3 we can come up with a common methodology we can all

4 agree on, so that we can put this to vote before the

5 end of the month.

6 MR. WHITWELL: That might be a quicker way,

7 right?

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. I mean, I agree that

9 would be quick. As long as everyone is okay with that,

10 we can proceed with, you know, Jeramy can send out a

11 Doodle poll that includes the motor manufacturers and

12 just say, "This is what we're trying to do."

13 Let's have a side bar, and that way we can

14 officially -- you know, before the end of August, so

15 this can officially get voted one way or the other.

16 Are we okay with that? All right.

17 MS. BARHYDT: Next slide.

18 It doesn't matter too much which one. So we

19 talked about a lot of different issues last week. I

20 think everybody wanted to go back and think about how

21 they might want to group products. People were still

22 thinking about how much testing would be appropriate,
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1 how we might determine how much testing to do as part

2 of the verification program.

3 We did get two emails. Yeah, if you can pull

4 that up.

5 Geoff Halley sent an email saying that "I

6 also believe that an ongoing program of verification

7 testing makes no sense whatsoever, other than to

8 provide a stream of work to the testing agencies. If

9 no changes affecting energy efficiency are made, then

10 it follows that the energy efficiency will remain the

11 same, certainly in size class of boilers that we

12 represent."

13 At the time he sent this, he said, "I will

14 vote no on the topic of continue/repeat verification

15 testing." "On the subject of testing labs in ISO 17025,

16 I am currently conducting a survey of ABMA member

17 companies about their testing capabilities. To date,

18 the responses indicate that they have the capability to

19 test the size range of boilers that they produce in

20 terms of available utility.

21 "A few have product development labs, but

22 this is the exception rather than the rule. The
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1 majority have their testing capability in the so-called

2 fire test area, which is essentially the end of the

3 factory production line. This part of the facility, in

4 my opinion, would be unable to meet ISO 17025

5 standards.

6 "It seems to me that the major criteria for

7 adequate testing are an agreed-upon test procedure,

8 competent test personnel, adequate utilities, properly

9 calibrated instrumentation at the required accuracy,

10 and the ability to process the required data. This

11 does not require ISO 17025 compliance. Therefore, I

12 will vote no to all references to ISO 17025.

13 "On the topic of the manufacturer covering

14 the expenses of ongoing certification testing" -- and I

15 think he meant verification testing there, but I'm not

16 certain -- "while this may not be a problem for the

17 small capacity boilers, such as those represented by

18 AHRI, it will certainly be a major concern for

19 manufacturers of larger capacity boilers, such as those

20 in the ABMA membership.

21 "It is unfortunate that DOE appears to have

22 relied so heavily on input from the small capacity
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1 segment of the marketplace while leaving the boiler

2 capacity uncapped. Thus, I will vote no to

3 manufacturers covering the expense of ongoing

4 certification testing."

5 And Peter Molvie said, "At last week's

6 meeting, I was participating via telephone in the

7 listen-only mode. As I am not going to be

8 participating in this week's meeting, I want to raise

9 my concerns about the subject of ongoing verification

10 testing.

11 "I am very concerned about the discussion

12 that occurred regarding ongoing verification testing

13 last week. It seems to me that such testing is a total

14 waste of time, money, and resources. Once the

15 efficiency of a commercial boiler has been established,

16 there is no reason to continually retest unless

17 something changes in the design of the boiler.

18 "The laws of physics and heat transfer

19 certainly do not change. And if nothing changes in the

20 design of the boiler, there is no reason to continually

21 retest. If a vote is taken in this week's meeting for

22 approval of any form of ongoing verification testing, I
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1 wish my vote to be recorded as no.

2 "I further object to the requirement that

3 testing labs be certified to ISO 17025. This type of

4 quality assurance could be a sort of overkill for a

5 process as simple as efficiency testing. Most boiler

6 manufacturers do not have ISO-certified testing labs,

7 and requiring such will force manufacturers to join a

8 voluntary industry certification program at

9 considerable additional expense. I vote no on any

10 proposal that requires ISO 17025 certified labs.

11 "Lastly, I object to ongoing certification

12 testing being done at the manufacturer's expense. We

13 incur the costs of testing our products when we develop

14 them. I do not see why we should have to pay for it

15 again on an ongoing basis. I vote no on any proposal

16 that requires the manufacturer to pay for verification

17 or enforcement testing, beyond the testing that was

18 performed when the product was developed.

19 And my understanding is that John Sexton is

20 here representing Peter Molvie, and that he does have

21 the ability to negotiate. So --

22 MR. EISNER: I got an email from Geoff in
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1 response to what I sent back to him asking him whether

2 he had any options to offer or alternatives to offer.

3 And I also asked him whether anybody would be

4 representing him.

5 I got an email stating, "I do not have an

6 alternate, but I am going to attempt to follow the

7 meeting as best as I can. As regards the ISO 17025

8 problem, I have no objection to it being a requirement

9 for pure testing labs, but would like to see something

10 to the effect that when testing is conducted in a large

11 manufacturer's facility, ISO 17025 does not apply."

12 Geoff, are you on the line now?

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: It doesn't look like it.

14 MR. SEXTON: This is John Sexton from

15 Cleaver- Brooks. I am on the line.

16 MS. BARHYDT: So we can still reach an

17 agreement on verification testing, and then we can come

18 up with some solution, so that we don't have this

19 derailed right at the start.

20 So keeping in mind the concern of the large

21 boiler manufacturers, I would like to go ahead and talk

22 about the different issues and see what we can come up
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1 with and see if we can't find some way to address some

2 of the concerns.

3 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey, and I have a

4 process question about this, which is simply that one

5 way to look at this is that we have a set of six or

6 seven simultaneous negotiations. Right? And it may

7 well be that for this semi-custom large boiler work, a

8 different verification process is appropriate.

9 So is what you meant that we will set aside

10 the large boiler issues and negotiate on the rest of

11 the world for now?

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: That is an option.

13 MS. BARHYDT: We can do that, particularly

14 since Geoff doesn't have anyone able to --

15 MR. SACHS: I would like to make that

16 representation.

17 MS. BARHYDT: -- represent him.

18 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. I have

19 concerns for the small manufacturers. We will have

20 most of the same issues. There aren't very many small

21 manufacturers that have 17025 certification in their

22 labs. It would be quite an ordeal to obtain it just
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1 because of the documentation requirements.

2 MS. BARHYDT: How does the cost of doing

3 17025 compare to the cost of third party testing?

4 MS. DANE: This is Mary Dane from Traulsen.

5 You can have the manufacturer test it, but to be part

6 of a client test data program or a satellite lab, those

7 costs can run like $10,000 just to have that

8 certification on your lab to be able to perform -- I'm

9 sure -- you know, I'm not sure how that fits across the

10 thing. I can only tell you my own personal experience,

11 and that's a lot for a big manufacturer -- or a small

12 manufacturer to come up with.

13 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers, PVI. I'm a

14 small manufacturer of build-to-order equipment, and I

15 do have 17025. I'm involved with an independent third

16 party 17025 lab, and we are a satellite facility of

17 theirs. Our cost to enter that program, in just pure

18 dollars, a check to the laboratory, is $25,000 per

19 year.

20 In addition to that, we have -- as Phillip

21 mentioned, there is a substantial amount of

22 recordkeeping documentation, certification program back
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1 loops that have to be documented, and an annual

2 inspection that is included as a part of that $25,000.

3 For our company, it has been a benefit because that

4 same approval we use as part of our safety

5 certification program when we are introducing new

6 products.

7 We would expect to use that program,

8 additionally, for the efficiency verification in the

9 same 17025 lab. So for us it is no additional expense.

10 But if you don't have one, and you can't benefit from

11 the certification assistance that that gives you, then

12 those are -- $10,000 is one number that has been used,

13 and for our lab the more different test standards you

14 test to, the more expensive the certification. That

15 may explain the difference, because we have multiple

16 test standards under which we are authorized to serve

17 as a satellite facility for that 17025 test.

18 MS. BARHYDT: Do you have to have 17025

19 accredited labs for one of the accredited test labs to

20 come witness tests and certify the results?

21 MR. WHITWELL: No.

22 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So they will still come
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1 out and they will say, "Yes, the test was done right;

2 yes, these are the right results; yes, their equipment

3 was calibrated; yes" --

4 MR. WHITWELL: They're safety tests. Is it

5 the same for performance?

6 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah, the same for performance.

7 I think the last time I -- this is Jill Hootman from

8 Trane. I think the last time I gave the example of a

9 very large -- one million btu exchanger that we had to

10 test in our lab. And we are 17025 certified to do all

11 the procedures, but we don't pay the money. We don't

12 go as far as paying the money.

13 So, you know, what they did is ETL gave us a

14 list ahead of time of the things that they were going

15 to, you know, certify and look at. And we showed them

16 all the calibrations and all of that kind of stuff

17 before they -- you know, when they came and they

18 witnessed the test.

19 So, yes, it can be done, and it doesn't

20 require that 17025 was paid for and accredited every

21 single time. In that particular lab, we run the

22 procedures but we don't pay the money.
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1 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. also,

2 within AHRI, some product sections allow witnessed

3 testing at the manufacturer's facility. Some do not.

4 Some require testing at the third party labs.

5 MS. HOOTMAN: How does the cost compare for

6 the witnessed testing where you're not accredited

7 versus accreditation? Is it -- I mean, is it at a

8 price --

9 MS. BARHYDT: I'm trying to figure out does

10 that help reduce the burden, or is it just kind of a

11 choice that they are both fairly comfortable?

12 MR. KOJAK: This is Mike Kojak with UL. I'm

13 not 100 percent familiar with the actual cost of it.

14 But the way UL works it is there is a witness program

15 and where the actual client does their own testing,

16 which that's what Mary and Frank were talking about.

17 So when it's a witnessed test, it is at a

18 lower cost. I'm not sure how much lower it is, but for

19 the witnessing a person goes out to the lab that the

20 test will be performed at, and they oversee the testing

21 and they check all the calibration and they check the

22 setup and they witness the test to make sure that it's
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1 done properly, instead of forcing that lab or that

2 manufacturer to go through all the documentation

3 processes, you know, just like --

4 MS. BARHYDT: Right.

5 MR. KOJAK: -- we would, you know, but we

6 just go there and check up to make sure everything is

7 done properly.

8 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

9 MR. SACHS: Mike, do you also offer -- this

10 is Harvey. Do you also offer a witness protection

11 program?

12 MR. KOJAK: For the right amount of money,

13 I'm sure they would.

14 MR. SMITH: This is Judd Smith with CSA. In

15 our program, we have a 17025 checklist that we go

16 manufacturer's labs. We do a process where we accredit

17 the lab internally to conduct the test according to

18 17025 testing.

19 MS. BARHYDT: So for the products other than

20 the large boilers --

21 MS. MEYERS: What are you calling "large

22 boilers"?
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1 MS. BARHYDT: I don't really know.

2 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers. I'm

3 concerned when we just talk about large boilers. What

4 happens to be boiler manufacturers speaking, it is

5 really the built- to-order industry, those of us that

6 don't stock anything and have to build to order just

7 for the test. And in many cases that thing you build

8 has no value unless it is sold to a customer. There is

9 no value to it, so it can be extremely expensive.

10 I use the example we could have, depending on

11 what product is selected, the cost of products ranging

12 anywhere from $10,000 for a small unit, like our

13 products, to $200,000 plus, just depending on which

14 model you select.

15 At the end of that testing, if it doesn't

16 have a customer to go to, it is worthless. It will be

17 dumped. So it's not just boilers; it is build-to-order

18 manufacturers.

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think that raises a

20 different point, though, than was brought out in the

21 emails, which had to do with laboratory accreditation

22 and the verification testing. That's not that it's not
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1 an important point; it's just a different point.

2 MS. BARHYDT: That sounds like the selection

3 issue.

4 So it sounds to me like if the -- well, there

5 are several options. One is to just require 17025

6 accreditation for whatever lab is performing the

7 testing. Another option would be to require witness

8 testing if it's done in the manufacturer's lab.

9 Another option would be to require witness testing and

10 lab accreditation. I mean, but it sounds to me like

11 there are a variety of different options here, so I'd

12 be interested in hearing --

13 MR. EISNER: Do you want to put them up on

14 the board so it's clear what we're talking about, and

15 then we can ask for discussion and comment?

16 MS. BARHYDT: Whether or not a lab has to be

17 accredited to do a verification testing, and this --

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Are we going to need

19 verification for --

20 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah. Everything. I mean,

21 that's what we were talking about last week, so that's

22 what I was considering. So last week we were talking
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1 about a set of standards for a verification program,

2 regardless of whether it was a DOE program, a DOE

3 approved program run by another party, and so that's

4 what I'm contemplating.

5 MR. EISNER: Do you want to keep the --

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Another option is ISO 17025,

7 third party oversight at manufacturer's facility.

8 MS. BARHYDT: And the other one would be the

9 combination of both, third party oversight and required

10 by the manufacturer's lab to have accreditation.

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: I want another option,

12 obviously.

13 MR. EISNER: Do we want to put a note up

14 there that it doesn't matter, it could either be a DOE

15 program --

16 MS. BARHYDT: Sure.

17 MR. EISNER: So it's clear on that.

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: So this would be a DOE

19 verification or a DOE-approved, which the DOE-approved

20 could be, you know, any entity, although it would be a

21 certification body or a manufacturer, if they want to

22 run their own verification program.
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1 MR. EISNER: I'm sure we have those two

2 things, too, as examples. So we could see if people

3 want to add others to that list.

4 MR. SACHS: Ashley, this is -- I'm not sure,

5 but this is saying the ICPs are third parties or will

6 be excluded from doing the verification programs. I

7 don't have a problem with it, but I just want to know

8 which we are trying to say.

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: We're using a different term.

10 We're using Department-approved verification program in

11 our wording. But I think third party oversight I see

12 as a lab, a testing facility. So third party oversight

13 would be a third party lab is overseeing testing at a

14 manufacturer's facility, mediating the need for any

15 type of accreditation by the manufacturer facilities

16 themselves.

17 MR. KLEISS: This is Jeff Kleiss. Can I

18 suggest that we add -- make that third party NRTL,

19 nationally recognized testing laboratory?

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. We like acronyms in the

21 government.

22 MR. WHITWELL: So do we.
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1 MR. SACHS: As opposed to NETL.

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: No, we don't ever want to

3 talk about them.

4 (Simultaneous discussion.)

5 MR. KLEISS: Jeff Kleiss again. If we have

6 the third party lab oversight of the tests, what other

7 function would DOE like to see on -- or what other

8 feature would give DOE confidence in the results,

9 beyond that?

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't think DOE has -- at

11 this point, it's all up for discussion. I don't think

12 we have an opinion at this point.

13 MS. BARHYDT: Do you have something in mind

14 that you think we should?

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, I think the question

16 goes both ways. I mean, if we were testing at a third

17 party lab, you guys -- or at a lab, any lab, let's say

18 not at the --

19 MS. BARHYDT: If you --

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- we're testing at a lab,

21 what confidence would you need in the results? If I'm

22 not testing at your lab, but I'm testing at a different
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1 lab, I can test at any lab, what would you like to see

2 of that lab? I mean, it goes both ways, right? So

3 it's not just what DOE would want to see, but it's also

4 what you would want to see of a lab that DOE may

5 choose, if it's not your own facility, if it's not, you

6 know, one of the three we have.

7 Right. I mean, I understand the smiles

8 around the room, but that's really what we're talking

9 about here. If I was to pick a lab and there is this

10 new lab that entered the market, and they said, "Hey,

11 DOE, where is there a testing lab, we can test, we have

12 no accreditation," is that okay? Should we give it a

13 shot?

14 (Simultaneous discussion.)

15 MR. MYERS: Well, I mean, I know what the

16 acronym stands for, but what are the -- but doesn't it

17 have to have 17025 accreditation to be a nationally

18 recognized testing --

19 MR. STEPHENS: I hate to say it, because I

20 know we've already had the conversation, but my

21 response to this question, Ashley, is it depends on if

22 we get to send our engineers there to do the setup or
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1 not.

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Let's assume you don't. What

3 do you want to see?

4 MR. STEPHENS: Then we have to have some way

5 of having confidence.

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: So what does that -- I mean,

7 it goes both ways, right? What if I don't send my

8 engineers?

9 MR. STEPHENS: The way we have built

10 confidence is by doing the test in their lab, doing the

11 test at their lab, and making sure that we have

12 reasonably similar results. 17025 doesn't say they are

13 going to have good results. It says they say what

14 they're going to do and they do what they say they're

15 going to do. That's all. It doesn't say they are good

16 at what they do.

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, I mean, what you're

18 articulating is more of participation in a round robin

19 testing program. I mean, that's pretty much what

20 you're saying.

21 MR. KOJAK: This is Mike Kojak with UL.

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, that's pretty much
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1 what you just described, that my results are the same

2 as theirs. The only way to do that is a --

3 MR. KOJAK: Well, at least that is part of

4 the 17025 environment, to do a round robin

5 documentation of the tests that you perform in the

6 different facilities, and that is part of the audit

7 that an ISO 17025 lab goes through every year is they

8 want to see that documentation.

9 It's part of the process is you have to have

10 round robin testing, unless you call it in your

11 facilities, get other people to prove that your labs

12 are accurate and what you're doing is a representation

13 of what is really -- the unit is actually doing.

14 That's part the ISO 17025 requirement.

15 MR. STEPHENS: The water heater industry

16 tried this several -- I believe it was 10 or 12 years

17 ago, with horrible results because of shipping damage,

18 predominantly because of shipping damage. They

19 transferred the product from one lab to another, and

20 that -- I don't know of any examples where it has

21 really worked out well for a true round robin

22 discussion.
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1 MR. BAUMAN: This is Jeff Bauman from

2 National. I guess when we're talking about kind of the

3 other options, and if we talk about whether it's

4 another third party or whether it's the manufacturer

5 when you certify the lab, I mean, I think you are quite

6 -- you want a company that has displayed competency in

7 being able to deal with that, so --

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: All right.

9 MR. BAUMAN: -- the way they do it now with

10 their witness test programs is basically you -- in its

11 simplest form, at least once a year you have to test

12 the product in your facility, send that exact same

13 product with your test results to the lab, and that is

14 -- and also, along with your documentation package

15 with, you know, information about who your lab techs

16 are and your equipment, things like that, and then, you

17 know, then they test it and certify that you are within

18 tolerance on matching what their results were.

19 So you display that competency to be able to

20 do that test. And, you know, whether that's something

21 that DOE would manage separately from a third party

22 would make it simpler or less costly, I would assume
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1 because obviously as we've talked that it's an

2 expensive program to be in, you know, to be able to --

3 you know, maybe when a lab applies to DOE to be able to

4 be a DOE-certified testing facility that maybe that

5 first step is you have to certify to it that the test

6 lab -- you know, certify competency and then provide

7 your equipment list, and things like that, to DOE.

8 MR. STEPHENS: There is a Six Sigma tool to

9 verify accuracy of a measurement. Three parts, do the

10 test three times with three different people running

11 the test. And it's well documented, if you have such

12 and such repeatability, and it's a technical -- for us,

13 that would be difficult, but -- at least it is for

14 different manufacturers -- to do that sort of thing.

15 MS. MEYERS: Doesn't the issue really come in

16 with these really large boilers? I mean, if you're

17 building a 10 million btu boiler, you're not going to

18 be able to do round robin.

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I think --

20 MS. MEYERS: The issue that we need to be

21 focusing on to me are the boilers, which I think we

22 need to define what's a large boiler.
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think there's going to be

2 exceptions. I mean, it sounds to me like we are going

3 to come up -- we hopefully are going to come up with

4 requirements for what we would call a verification

5 program, whether that be a DOE verification program, an

6 industry-run verification program, or a manufacturer

7 running their own verification program for their own

8 products. But to me the latter two were approved by

9 DOE, met a certain product -- the idea would be to

10 negotiate that amount.

11 Yes, your answer is there are going to be

12 exceptions to the rule. There always -- there is going

13 to have to be for us to be able to negotiate the

14 requirements. I would say negotiate the body of the

15 requirements first and then we will talk about the

16 exceptions, what needs to be exceptions later, such

17 that we can get to a yes. Because otherwise we are

18 going to get so confused with the different

19 requirements that we are never going to get anywhere.

20 At least that is my suggestion.

21 MR. KOJAK: This is Mike Kojak with UL. One

22 of the things that could possibly happen if, you know,
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1 there was this DOE-approved VICP third party lab, and a

2 manufacturer was shopping to see which VICP they wanted

3 to join. Part of the requirements or the -- from the

4 manufacturer would be for there to be an internal round

5 robin between the different VICP organizations and

6 themselves to verify that that lab is actually

7 performing the test and getting the same results that

8 they do internally, to coordinate between themselves.

9 And once that's done and they have the

10 confidence in the third party VICP, then, you know,

11 they can join that VICP because they know that they are

12 getting the same results.

13 MS. DANE: This is Mary Dane from Traulsen.

14 There doesn't exist -- well, there exists one VICP

15 program for commercial refrigeration. And most people

16 who don't belong to it don't -- it isn't because they

17 don't like them, it's just that it's expensive to be a

18 part of and to join them.

19 We already have verification programs in

20 place that we use for EnergyStar and that we use for

21 safety testing and things, you know, along those lines.

22 We don't want to have to join the VICP to satisfy DOE,
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1 because the VICP uses UL and uses ETL and uses all of

2 the same labs that we would use ourselves.

3 So why would we go out and pay extra to

4 belong to a program that's not required in our

5 industry? And there will be a lot of pushback from CRE

6 if that becomes a requirement, that we can't use a

7 third party certification lab to be able to do our

8 testing.

9 Now, I would ask that if it's a third party

10 NRTL, and they have to have 17025 to do it, that they

11 also be -- that they also be able to recognize our

12 equipment. I think I brought this up in an earlier

13 meeting. We don't want you spending -- you know, we

14 don't want to verify through a lab that only does VCRs

15 or, you know, DVDs, or whatever the technology is. We

16 want to go to a lab that has tested.

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: How do we ensure that?

18 MS. DANE: Because it will be in their

19 registration.

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: They will be approved to run

21 those tests.

22 MR. GORMAN: This is John Gorman from CSA.
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1 There is an accreditation program that all third

2 parties go through.

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right.

4 MR. GORMAN: And if you get accreditation to

5 do these tests, you are accredited by a --

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.

7 MR. GORMAN: -- to do that. ILAC is the body

8 that actually --

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's in their scope, right?

10 MR. GORMAN: There is the ability for a third

11 party laboratory to conduct programs and safety -- you

12 know, EnergyStar and things of that nature. And every

13 one of those programs is built around 17025, every

14 single one of them, that's a precursor to using the

15 program. You must be compliant with that.

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right.

17 MR. GORMAN: So every test that they run for

18 safety and other things always starts off with the

19 laboratory being verified by us as compliant with

20 17025.

21 MS. DANE: We do not want to add another

22 layer of people handling our tests. We have already
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1 got existing programs that have been proven to be good.

2 We want to keep working the same way we do with our

3 other verification testing, not do something different.

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: How does this look? You have

5 one or the other, and you must have the DOE test

6 procedure and their scope.

7 MS. DANE: I would say that would be

8 reasonable, but they would have to have the DOE test

9 procedure and the scope.

10 MR. BAUMAN: Jeff Bauman from National. So

11 here we are taking out the option of a manufacturer

12 directly having their lab approved, unless their

13 manufacturer's lab is ISO 17025.

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Or the manufacturer -- the

15 second part of that, right, I mean, or he comes and

16 does testing, oversees testing in your facility.

17 MR. BAUMAN: Okay. But the third option --

18 the other option that was brought up that I thought was

19 being put on the table also was the manufacturer would

20 somehow through DOE certify their lab as DOE approved,

21 showing competency, and providing the documentation to

22 pay for the third party -- the costs of the third
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1 party. I mean, again, you know, a lot of us already

2 pay that third party cost when they command the annual

3 fees.

4 If we're trying to make this as reliable but

5 less expensive on manufacturers to -- you know, do we

6 want to have -- should there be an option that the

7 manufacturer can directly -- I don't know the answer to

8 that. I'm just --

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: You're asking DOE to become

10 an accreditation body. A different story.

11 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers.

12 MR. BAUMAN: I thought you said that already,

13 that we --

14 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers, PVI. I just

15 jotted down a list of what are the possibilities so

16 that we are looking at everything at one time. In

17 descending order of, I'll call it certainty, the first

18 would be testing in a 17025 laboratory within its

19 scope, whatever is there, testing in a 17025 laboratory

20 within its scope.

21 MR. WHITWELL: Third party laboratory you're

22 talking about.
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1 MR. MYERS: If it's 17025, by definition it

2 has to be third party, so yes. But I just didn't add

3 those words in because that's inherent in 17025. They

4 don't allow self-certification. You have to get an

5 independent third party to be a 17025 lab.

6 The second is testing in a manufacturer's lab

7 by 17025 personnel within its scope.

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: This isn't something a third

9 party lab or an NRTL --

10 MR. MYERS: NRTL and 17025 are part of the

11 same thing. If you're 17025, you're going to be a --

12 you're not going to do it if you're not nationally

13 recognized.

14 The second was testing in the manufacturer's

15 lab by the 17025 personnel, again, within its scope.

16 The third is testing in a manufacturer's lab

17 under a 17025 satellite program within its scope, so

18 that the personnel running the test are covered under

19 the 17025 lab's controls.

20 MR. BAUMAN: This is Jeff Bauman. I thought

21 that DOE becoming -- for commercial refrigeration and

22 other products, California does that. You register
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1 directly with California -- your lab facility.

2 MR. MYERS: I'll get to that one here, too.

3 MR. BAUMAN: Okay. If they can do it, you

4 can do it, Ashley.

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.

6 MR. MYERS: She is typing it up. She is

7 typing them up. So I'll just be quiet for a moment

8 while she types them up.

9 MR. STEPHENS: Ashley, this is Phillip

10 Stephens, HTP. What is important to the Department?

11 Is it to have a lab accredited or certified? Or to

12 have confidence in the test, or both?

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Confidence in the test report

14 and results. And to some extent, I mean, this is -- I

15 don't know, it's really -- that's for both sides, for

16 you to be confident and for us to be confident. So how

17 do we get here? It may not be 17025. It may be -- I

18 mean, right now we have in our regs that we will only

19 test in a 17025 facility for enforcement, because

20 that's some of the comments we got in previously. So

21 that was important to people.

22 But we are trying to say, okay, what are the
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1 expectations around the table to give us that

2 confidence in the results? What should the

3 requirements be? And then we can talk about -- I mean,

4 then it becomes, okay, how do I show those

5 requirements? Because in order to gain approval from

6 DOE, to the Department-approved verification program,

7 whether it be a manufacturer or a third party, you

8 would have to show that you meet those requirements

9 somehow, for whatever requirements.

10 MR. STEPHENS: Okay. I guess we all have

11 different opinions about this. I mean, it is

12 going to be difficult to have us agree. Couldn't we

13 just leave it that that's what the Department wants,

14 and then each manufacturer has to justify --

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: No. Because -- well, how do

16 you justify it? How do we say yes or no? Because

17 you're going to come in with an application saying,

18 "This is what we think will give you confidence in our

19 results." And then you can -- I mean, you can leave it

20 open-ended for the Department to judge, but typically

21 people don't like to do that.

22 MS. BARHYDT: People usually have fairly set
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1 expectations.

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, usually people don't

3 like to say, "We'll leave it to the Department's

4 discretion."

5 MR. SACHS: I know.

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: You know what I'm talking

7 about, Harvey? Come on.

8 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers. She has

9 them up on the screen now. And, again, just to

10 clarify, the 17025 includes third party nationally

11 recognized testing laboratory. I include that as a

12 part of 17025. So add that in to each one of those, if

13 you want to.

14 The second is in the manufacturer's lab 17025

15 NRTL personnel actually run -- they are actually there

16 witnessing the test in the manufacturer's facility.

17 The third is that it is tested in the

18 manufacturer's lab under the 17025 satellite program.

19 And the satellite program is where you have to become -

20 - you are investigated and you have to set up programs,

21 annual verification, annual rechecks of that, in order

22 to qualify to run those tests as a satellite of the
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1 17025 facility. So their personnel don't have to be

2 there, but you have to go through all kinds of hoops to

3 get that --

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. Third party for --

5 MR. MYERS: -- accredited lab. If it's close

6 to 17025 as the manufacturer who is not a third party,

7 then it can be.

8 The next one is testing at the manufacturer's

9 lab, DOE authorization of the lab. This is similar to

10 what is done -- I can only speak to water heaters and

11 boilers for California Energy Commission. But you can

12 test and send in your data to put on their registry,

13 your water heater efficiency and standby loss, if you

14 have conducted a pretest. Send in the data. They

15 review it and say yes, you're an acceptable laboratory.

16 The third is what CEC does for boilers. That

17 is, you have to make the request, but you don't have to

18 send in any data. So you make the request, tell them

19 you're capable and you agree that you will not cheat,

20 and all of that sort of thing, in writing. But then

21 you can run the test. They don't require you send any

22 data in.
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1 And then the last one, and the least

2 constraining, is just the testing by the manufacturer

3 using manufacturer personnel, and you don't check out

4 anything. Obviously, that's the least certain to give

5 you good results.

6 So I tried to list those down from tightest

7 to - - I wasn't trying to select a particular level.

8 I'd like to see us at least go to the 17025 satellite

9 program, but I suspect there will be other participants

10 who would want to go at least down to the DOE

11 authorization, much like CEC does. Or perhaps accept

12 CEC certification.

13 MS. DANE: Right. That was going to be my

14 suggestion was if you are already following a number of

15 these programs, like involved in EnergyStar, and, you

16 know, California Energy, it should be enough that we

17 have already leaped through all of those organizations'

18 hoops. And somebody has seen -- we still had to submit

19 data. Somebody knows what we're doing, the fact that we

20 are in the back room scribbling it out and sending it

21 on in, so --

22 MR. BAUMAN: This is Jeff Bauman from
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1 National. Just keep in mind, too, that the new version,

2 at least for commercial refrigeration, the proposed

3 version of the draft, the new version drafts of the

4 requirements, the test procedure is whatever DOE says

5 basically. I mean, they've culled it out, that it's --

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: I wrote that.

7 MR. BAUMAN: How crazy is that? We thank you

8 for that, Ashley.

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: I wrote that last night.

10 MR. BAUMAN: So hopefully we'll take that off

11 the table, and we won't have to do different --

12 MS. DANE: Right. We don't want to run two

13 programs.

14 MR. BAUMAN: Probably taking --

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: No comment.

16 MR. TRITSIS: This is Bill Tritsis with AHRI.

17 Let me speak a little bit to what AHRI is doing, which

18 is primarily covered in what you are writing here, with

19 the exception of what is in your first bullet point

20 here, third party CB water condition to NRTL to cover

21 what AHRI is doing, which is also providing -- and

22 maybe for the manufacturer to -- for us to come in and
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1 audit their laboratory, the checklist that we have.

2 And over and above that, specifically for the

3 particular program, there is a checklist as to what --

4 how the setup should be at the laboratory. That, of

5 course, reflects what kind of level of confidence would

6 you like to have at the end of the day, receiving test

7 reports from that laboratory. So --

8 MR. RIVEST: Which of these bullet points --

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's a new one.

10 MR. TRITSIS: Right. Well, you can have it

11 here, third party CB water and NRTL oversight.

12 MR. SACHS: C and P?

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: CB. So CB is very different

14 than a lab oversight in my mind.

15 MR. TRITSIS: You want it covered in the --

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: I'm saying manufacturer with

17 the oversight -- I'll use the term even though --

18 MR. TRITSIS: Oversight of the laboratory --

19 MS. DANE: Michael, aren't you a CB also?

20 Okay.

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: But he would fall into one of

22 the other buckets anyway.
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1 MS. DANE: Right. He would fall under both,

2 as long as we're allowed to select sites, because in my

3 mind NRTL and CB are the same, because they all get

4 checked out by ILAC and stuff like that. So I don't

5 want to go down a path where it sounds like only the

6 VICP would be the certified body, because that still --

7 you know, that is still one more --

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: I actually see them as quite

9 different. I see it different only -- the reason is

10 because I see one oversight being a third party lab

11 that is running the tests themselves as well.

12 MS. DANE: Right.

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Versus someone that is -- a

14 program that is not running the tests, but may have

15 expertise in running the tests and providing oversight.

16 MS. DANE: Does AHRI run the tests, or do

17 they go to a CB to run the tests for them? So it's

18 still --

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: Third party lab runs it.

20 MS. DANE: So another level of --

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.

22 MR. TRITSIS: Actually, if you ever compare
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1 it, it's actually cheaper. It's much --

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: All right. We're not talking

3 about that.

4 MR. HON: I'd like to say something.

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Sure.

6 MR. HON: Unfortunately, there are several

7 mentions in here about California Energy Commission.

8 California Energy Commission's only requirement to be a

9 certified lab under the California energy standard is

10 that you have run a test on that product category in

11 the previous year and sent them the data. It doesn't

12 mean you sent them data.

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. I was under the

14 impression that California did not have any auditing

15 requirements or anything like that.

16 MR. HON: They have never talked about doing

17 two audits, but they have --

18 (Simultaneous discussion.)

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. I mean, we have just

20 gotten questions before and that was my impression of

21 the program.

22 MR. BAUMAN: This is Jeff Bauman from
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1 National. I'll say, too, because I brought it up, I'm

2 not saying that their program is sufficient for what

3 DOE would want, but I'm saying that type of thing has

4 been --

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: The question is, do we have

6 the -- I mean, of the one, two, three, four, five, six,

7 seven -- forget the top people. Of the seven listed

8 towards the bottom there, is that the realm of

9 possibilities we're talking about? Is that realm the

10 realm of possibilities in terms of -- I'm not saying

11 that they all -- I mean, we can whittle down the realm

12 of possibilities based on what our opinions are after

13 we make sure we get the realm of possibilities.

14 MR. FLY: Draw a line.

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: We are going to be drawing a

16 line somewhere.

17 MR. FLY: That last one was like no testing

18 at all; right?

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: Then we just go to our regs;

20 right?

21 MR. KLEISS: This is Jeff Kleiss.

22 MR. MYERS: Frank Myers, PVI. I think this
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1 characterizes the range of possibilities. There may be

2 other variations that one could have, but I do think it

3 characterizes the range.

4 MR. KOJAK: This is Mike Kojak with UL. I

5 would recommend removing both of them that talks about

6 the CEC.

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, I mean, we are going to

8 draw a line, right? But at the same time, that is a

9 possibility now. I mean, I get what you're saying.

10 Let's put it that way.

11 MR. SACHS: Let me just be more explicit. I

12 grew up in Georgia, and I may have left a half-century

13 ago, but if you allow California, you have to allow

14 Georgia, Kansas --

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. Harvey, your line is

16 well above the CEC certification. We get it.

17 MR. SACHS: I didn't say it's well above.

18 But with all due respect to my friends, bureaucrats in

19 California --

20 MR. WHITWELL: Can I just -- I'd like to get

21 a clarification on the second bullet there. So it says

22 testing and manufacture lab with 17025 personnel within
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1 its scope. I assume that that means it is tested and

2 the manufacturer lab using manufacturer's technicians

3 but witness with the 17025 personnel, right? As

4 opposed -- it is not using the lab personnel to run the

5 test.

6 MR. MYERS: That was -- when I put that up,

7 that's what I intended. When I add the word "witnessed

8 by" --

9 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. Just for clarification,

10 because I wasn't clear on which that was.

11 MR. FLY: No lab personnel is going to be

12 able to walk into somebody's data --

13 MR. WHITWELL: I don't want them touching my

14 equipment. I'm responsible for what they do, safety15 wise.

16 MR. EISNER: So does anybody have anything

17 they want to add to the list?

18 MR. KLEISS: Jeff Kleiss, Lochinvar. One of

19 the things that happens with the third party testing is

20 that in addition to conducting the test, they are also

21 reviewing the data that is taken for the results.

22 So when you get to the bullet of DOE
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1 authorization of lab, there is no feedback loop there.

2 Would it be -- and to possibly address that, would it

3 be possible to add to that, possibly having it for each

4 different product class or the standardized test form,

5 and a review option or a review by DOE of the test

6 results.

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Let me just make sure I

8 understand what you're asking. You want to have the

9 ability to test in your own lab, submit your test data

10 to DOE, have DOE review and approve your test data,

11 before you can certify and before you can -- I mean, is

12 that where we're going here?

13 MS. DANE: No.

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Or subsequent, just for

15 verification.

16 MR. KLEISS: Why are we talking about

17 verification?

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: I'm just asking.

19 (Simultaneous discussion.)

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: And no witnessing. So test

21 in their own facility, their own personnel submitting

22 data.
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1 MR. BAUMAN: That's correct.

2 (Simultaneous speaking.)

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: That seems to be what he's

4 suggesting.

5 MR. BAUMAN: That would give DOE the

6 opportunity to verify calibration of equipment and

7 verify our review results.

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: All right. So let's talk

9 about one we can all agree to take off the table.

10 Let's start there.

11 MR. BAUMAN: Start from the bottom?

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: So the bottom one, we can all

13 agree to take off the table.

14 MR. BAUMAN: Yes.

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. Red is bad; green is

16 going to be good.

17 MR. WHITWELL: How original.

18 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah. That requires multiple

19 clicks, though.

20 (Simultaneous discussion.)

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: All right. So the next one

22 above that would be testing at a manufacturer's lab but
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1 with certification body oversight. So when we're

2 talking certification -- but I'm not talking about

3 third party labs. This is an entity that does not do

4 their own testing.

5 MS. MEYERS: So my remark that they would, it

6 would depend upon the product class.

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: And it would depend on what

8 your -- what is the requirements of the certification

9 body to be called a certification body. There's --

10 MS. DANE: It's already the same as an NRTL,

11 to my understanding, unless somebody can explain --

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's not. It's different.

13 MR. GORMAN: Yeah. The certification body,

14 the CB status is really not in the 17025 or NRTL. It's

15 17065, which is what is -- it's an ISO guide that you

16 can get accredited by whoever credits these things to

17 be called a CB.

18 And a CB would be a situation where you would

19 submit a data from one of these permits to the CB. The

20 CB would then turn around and submit it to DOE, the

21 overseer of the program. So it's not like --

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: More like a data reviewer.
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1 So, in other words, instead of -- the way I look at

2 this is instead of testing at a manufacturer's lab, it

3 is testing by the manufacturer's lab personnel. And

4 tell me if I have this wrong. But instead of DOE

5 reviewing and approving the data, a different entity

6 would be reviewing and approving the data. Not a test

7 lab.

8 MR. GORMAN: Right.

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's this different entity.

10 And then they would submit it to DOE. So it's almost

11 like, in DOE's regs, a third party submitter.

12 MR. FLY: This is Mark Fly with AAON. Just a

13 corollary, you know, I'm just going to throw this out

14 there. Like AMCA certifies laboratories. They happen

15 to do their own testing. I don't have any idea what

16 testing is covered. I just know that they do that. Is

17 that the kind of organization you are talking about? I

18 mean, there may not be anybody that exists today, but I

19 don't know if you want to lock out this --

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: I'm just generally -- so

21 maybe a better way to do this, and get rid of the term

22 "certification body," because that's not -- this is
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1 manufacturer testing, manufacturer personnel, no one

2 onsite, and then someone reviewing the data, a second

3 entity, a third party reviewing the data.

4 MALE SPEAKER: Crediting the lab or crediting

5 the data?

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Just the data.

7 MALE SPEAKER: Just the data.

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: No lab.

9 MALE SPEAKER: No lab. I don't --

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's the way I look at

11 that.

12 MALE SPEAKER: I vote no on that one.

13 MR. GORMAN: I don't know anyone that would

14 buy an arrangement without some way to validate that

15 the lab -- the manufacturer's lab is qualified, has

16 equipment and personnel to perform the work.

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: So do we all agree we can

18 remove that one?

19 MALE SPEAKER: Yes.

20 MR. SACHS: Mr. Halley's report -- it's not

21 included in the discussion.

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: We are going to get to
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1 exclusions, and something tells me that they are going

2 to be right on that exclusions list by the time we get

3 there. Yeah.

4 MR. SACHS: You might be right on this one,

5 Ashley.

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. Wow, Harvey, you're

7 generous today.

8 MR. SACHS: It's in my DNA.

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: So the next one is where DOE

10 reviews stuff. So, well, I guess it's not the first --

11 so testing at a manufacturer's lab, I don't really see

12 the difference between this one and the last one, by

13 the way. If you're not required to do it, send DOE

14 data.

15 MR. MYERS: As you've described it, that's --

16 as you described the last one, that's correct.

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. So get rid of that

18 one, because we have already X'ed that one out.

19 The next one --

20 MR. BAUMAN: Excuse me, Ashley. This is Jeff

21 Bauman from National. If we get rid of that, is there

22 -- and I'm reading backwards up, is there one where
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1 test and manufacture --

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yours is up there.

3 MR. BAUMAN: Okay. Sorry.

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I think the next two are

5 the same. I just translated the CEC requirements into

6 what DOE would do. But it's testing in a

7 manufacturer's lab, manufacturer's personnel, submit

8 data to DOE for approval, but no witnessing. Ability

9 audit, I guess, if we wanted to.

10 MR. BAUMAN: This is Jeff Bauman from

11 National. I think the thought is to possibly leave that

12 one there but take out the "or accept the CEC

13 certification."

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: I'll pull it out. It's the

15 one above it. Read the one above it and see if that

16 works for you.

17 MR. BAUMAN: Which? Sending the data in?

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yep.

19 MR. HUNT: Hi. This is Marshall Hunt from

20 California PG&E. I'm not an expert at what CEC lab is

21 doing, and I'm checking with them now to verify what

22 they do and don't do. But let's leave it struck as is,
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1 and I'll get back to you.

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Good. Thanks, Marshall.

3 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. Without any

4 aspersions at the Department of Energy, with no

5 reservations about the legislative process in this

6 country, I am uncomfortable with the data submission to

7 DOE.

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: I am as well.

9 MR. SACHS: Then I'll change my mind.

10 No. I'm comfortable because there may be

11 incredible resource limitations on an administration

12 that is very unhelpful and --

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay.

14 MR. SACHS: All right.

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: Or one that's really helpful.

16 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. How

17 can we be so concerned about DOE's staffing abilities

18 but not be concerned about small manufacturers --

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think we are equally

20 concerned. I just think we are looking for a workable

21 solution. And to me, this isn't necessarily a workable

22 solution for the Department. So help me come up with a
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1 workable solution for the small manufacturers.

2 MR. BAUMAN: Are we including in the one we

3 still have left on the board, as you go through with

4 the red pencil there, Ashley, I would add, if we're

5 still carrying that one, which I think we should, add

6 the line below "after DOE authorization of the lab."

7 So, I mean, it seems to me if DOE came up

8 with some requirements that maybe when you first do

9 your lab you have to go to a third party and, yeah, the

10 manufacturer has to pay that, prove that competency

11 through testing or, you know, that DOE could just come

12 up with some basic standards, and then how is it going

13 to be possible for DOE to manage something like that

14 with -- again, the manufacturer might have an initial

15 cost to it, but they can make that decision whether

16 that's -- you know, they'd be better off going directly

17 to a third party or going through a certification for

18 their lab through DOE, and then maintaining that

19 certification.

20 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers, PVI. One

21 thing to keep in mind as we are talking about

22 possibilities here, one thing that CEC does,
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1 particularly with their water heater program where you

2 annually send in a set of data showing, yes, I have run

3 this test, and I'm capable of running this test, and

4 here's the data.

5 When you submit information after that, once

6 you have your lab approved for the year, you send the

7 data straight in to their listing sheet, in their Excel

8 sheet that goes up online. But CEC does do annual

9 auditing, kind of the DOE spot check kind of thing.

10 And if you are found to be out of compliance, then all

11 of those documents that you signed saying, "I swear I'm

12 going to do it right, I know how to do it," the

13 consequences of that kick in.

14 And they do have a -- not a huge budget, but

15 a small budget where they do spot checks. And if you

16 don't comply, then obviously you come under very high

17 scrutiny and there's lots of bad, very costly things

18 that happen if you don't. So that helps keep everyone

19 submitting good data, because the consequences are

20 there for them to do the spot check.

21 And then years ago, probably 20 years ago, a

22 company that I worked with was actually subject to one
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1 of those spot checks, and we did have a defective

2 product and had to go through additional testing to

3 verify that a part had been left off by the

4 manufacturer.

5 MR. BAUMAN: This is Jeff Bauman from

6 National. I'll say also that -- and maybe part of that,

7 again, we want to add some more detail to that is, in

8 that case the lab -- manufacturer's lab would have to

9 recertify once a year or whatever, and, you know, pay

10 for that cost of -- to do a witness or a correlation

11 test at a lab and send that to DOE.

12 I don't think you'll have work on DOE's part,

13 and it -- the manufacturer could decide whether that's

14 a suitable option. But that would give you an annual

15 assurance.

16 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers, PVI. Are

17 you proposing a -- like a NRTL 17025, some form of that

18 test that would be once a year in order to certify your

19 lab?

20 MR. BAUMAN: Yeah. I'm just trying to also

21 get at -- I mean, I know -- and I know I think a lot of

22 us had concern not to talk down to the lab and stuff,
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1 but with the backlog they have on doing testing, and

2 things like that, it gives a lot of manufacturers

3 challenges on trying to do multiple tests every year,

4 and just trying to find a way where, you know, the

5 manufacturer could possibly have the option to work

6 directly with DOE. But, yeah, have somebody, you know,

7 a third party to be able to -- you'd pay to run a desk

8 and do that correlation to try to keep that -- it's

9 very costly.

10 MR. MYERS: That would also be a way to keep

11 DOE's costs down. They're not having to do the same

12 level of verification because once a year they get a

13 17025 lab test report saying this company knows how to

14 run --

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: We get a lot of those.

16 MR. STEPHENS: This is Phillip Stephens, HTP.

17 I'm not so sure once a year is going to be workable for

18 this case. I mean, the small businesses, that could be

19 quite a challenge.

20 MR. KOJAK: This is Mike Kojak with UL. I

21 just want to understand what that bullet is. So it

22 would be - - the OEMs would do their own testing for
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1 self- certification for the DOE, and then they would be

2 also doing their own verification testing without every

3 year - - with Jeff sending the data to the DOE that,

4 yes, they have verified they have the exact

5 certification rating that they did themselves also.

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: When we talk about data, let

7 me just be clear, I mean, for this one it should be

8 full of data sets, not a summary test report, not a

9 one-pager with a number on it.

10 MR. BAUMAN: This is Jeff Bauman from

11 National. Understood. And the down side for some

12 manufacturers is the concern about the possibility that

13 that could get --

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right.

15 MR. BAUMAN: -- pulled out by somebody and

16 they'd want to look at it.

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. I mean, this is full

18 of data, everything.

19 MR. BAUMAN: Yeah. I would agree with that,

20 and that's, again, a balance you have to make. And

21 that -- when it gets costly, then you are going to

22 potentially spread it to somebody from the outside
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1 knowing about the --

2 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers. If you have

3 a 17025 lab running the test, then why does DOE need to

4 run the data?

5 MR. BAUMAN: They are only running one test

6 for your lab certification. You have all your data for

7 everything you've submitted, all of your tests would go

8 to DOE. And after running the data, we'd go to DOE.

9 You haven't given it to anybody else.

10 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers. I wouldn't

11 be in favor of that. However, what California does I

12 would be in favor of, and that is the manufacturer has

13 to maintain that testing for five years.

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: You already have to do that.

15 MR. MYERS: And it has to be available to CEC

16 so it can be available to DOE. Then, that detailed

17 testing that is going in the hands of your competitors

18 couldn't be gotten to because it's in --

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, then you'll have --

20 MR. BAUMAN: This is Jeff Bauman from

21 National. I agree with that, Frank. That would make it

22 less -- you guys don't have to get all that data every
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1 year. But if you ever go back and ask for it, you have

2 to get it. I don't know how that would work with, you

3 know, if somebody asked you if you have -- you don't

4 typically have it, but you have access to it, and you

5 have to --

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think that part is good.

7 We are going to -- I mean, this is part of the option,

8 right? If you're going to submit the DOE data, which

9 are -- I've done the verification testing in my own

10 lab, with my own personnel, with the units I've chosen.

11 You know, at some point, I'm also going to send you a

12 piece of paper with a number on it. That's not going

13 to fly, right, I mean, with the Department.

14 The Department is saying, "We want the full

15 test data report." And if the full test data report is

16 something you are not willing to give, then you pick

17 another option where you don't have to send the full

18 test data report to the Department.

19 MS. DANE: But in that option, don't you say

20 from the manufacturer lab to the third party lab test?

21 So, okay, we've got a witness who comes in and, you

22 know, tells us, "These two units we want you to check,"
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1 why can't we just leave all --

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's once a year. That's

3 not going to meet your full -- I'm going to guess

4 that's whenever we get to a percentage. It's not going

5 to meet your quota.

6 MS. DANE: I know, and if they pick the

7 units, they come in twice a year and do one and one or

8 whatever their selection is from the program that wants

9 to see it, they do the third party test, they review

10 the results. They send you a summary. They still are

11 not sending you all of our data so that somebody on a

12 FOIA can work --

13 MR. FLY: This is Mark Fly from AAON. You

14 know, I think we are walking around a separate lab

15 accreditation test that is not a full 17025 satellite

16 program. It's something less.

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.

18 MR. FLY: And what we're discussing right now

19 is DOE basically providing that certification.

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right.

21 MR. FLY: Could a 17025 independent lab do

22 that?
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. It's --

2 MR. FLY: Something short of a full satellite

3 program, so nothing about 17025, so I may be talking --

4 but, you know, if it costs 25,000, or under 10,000 to

5 do that, for the independent labs to set up something

6 that may be less costly. Why wouldn't they do the same

7 thing that you would do -- review the data and make

8 sure that it was, that way we wouldn't have to send all

9 the data to DOE.

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: I'm less worried about a

11 paperwork exercise I guess on the Department. But, I

12 mean, just to get data, to look at data, yes, I can see

13 when something is out of tolerance. I can see when --

14 but I can't really see how the test was run. I mean,

15 same things you guys are saying, right, about why you

16 want to be onsite for a test. You can't see how

17 something was set up, can't see if something went

18 wrong. If it passed, there is no question, right? No

19 questions are asked; everyone is happy.

20 But if there's not, there's, you know, some

21 type of issue there, I don't know. I mean, the issue

22 to me isn't so much check -- looking at the piece of
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1 paper, at the data. It is more about, how do we answer

2 -- going back to the whole purpose of this, how do we

3 answer, both from your perspective and from ours, that

4 the test was run correctly on the unit and the results

5 are valid.

6 MS. DANE: Isn't that annual involvement of a

7 third party lab your guarantee?

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't know. That's what

9 I'm asking. Is that my guarantee? Does that give me

10 my guarantee? Does that give you your guarantee? If I

11 wanted to test your product at a lab, any lab that I

12 wanted to, it says it has the test procedure in its

13 scope or whatever. Maybe that's not required here; we

14 don't really have that on the slide.

15 But does that give you -- I mean, I give you

16 a paper with the results saying something about -- does

17 that give you the assurance that the test was done

18 correctly and it's okay?

19 MS. DANE: I would have to defer to someone

20 who is --

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: I guarantee they're going to

22 say no. That's the answer, right? I mean, I set you
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1 up.

2 MR. BAUMAN: I would say, Ashley, though that

3 -- and, again, we wouldn't select this --

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah.

5 MR. BAUMAN: I'm just trying to get another

6 option for some of the people with --

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, absolutely. I mean,

8 maybe --

9 MR. BAUMAN: I would say, given all of that,

10 and then test data was public, that if somebody wanted

11 it, hey, yeah, I'd be worried about, you know, maybe if

12 I'm trying to, you know, run a small operation or

13 whatever, and I'm trying to really keep my costs low, I

14 know, hey, somebody else could go in and look at my

15 information.

16 But that would give me, if I was concerned

17 about that company, another manufacturer, I could go in

18 and look at their test data. And I bet that would give

19 me enough assurance that, you know, if I see something

20 in there that's not right, then I could pick up the

21 phone and call you guys and say, "Hey, you know, look

22 at these people."
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: So --

2 MR. BAUMAN: I think the only concern I would

3 have with this would be the once a year.

4 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. I

5 guess my only concern with this would be I would

6 propose something every third year, every other year.

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Let's do this. You know, can

8 we take a 15-minute break and --

9 MR. EISNER: Take a 15-minute break and talk

10 about --

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- come up with an idea that

12 would work for you to put in a bullet. That you think

13 would work for all of us as well.

14 MR. STEPHENS: The second part is the hard

15 part.

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: I understand.

17 (Whereupon, a brief recess taken.)

18 MR. EISNER: All right. Back to work.

19 Anything else we want to talk about taking off the

20 list?

21 MS. BARHYDT: Any other ideas?

22 MR. STEPHENS: I believe I have a rabbit I
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1 need to pull out of my hat.

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. Yes.

3 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. My

4 first question is the two bullet items we're talking

5 about, that one and the one below it, are those the

6 same, or are those different items?

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: They are the same as the sub8 bullet.

9 MR. STEPHENS: Okay. So our proposal would

10 be that -- so we would acknowledge that DOE has the

11 ability to audit as needed. So what I would propose

12 for this one is that if there was an audit failure,

13 then we would be submitted to watch the verification

14 testing the following year, so that would really put

15 the onus on the manufacturer and could really literally

16 double their cost of testing for the following year.

17 MS. BARHYDT: How about "If you fail an

18 audit, you have to use a 17025 lab"?

19 MR. STEPHENS: Okay.

20 MR. EISNER: Everybody else okay with that?

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: For the next year's worth or

22 for what?
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1 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah. We'd have to think about

2 that.

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: For the next year's worth of

4 verification?

5 MR. STEPHENS: I would say that's an

6 acceptable compromise.

7 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik with AHRI. So

8 what is the audit that's in that particular bullet?

9 What is --

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: Fail a verification test.

11 MALE SPEAKER: But you're doing the

12 verification test.

13 MR. STANONIK: So there's no specific, let's

14 say, process that's an audit.

15 MR. STEPHENS: The audit and the assessment

16 testing might be -- obviously, if you're going with

17 basically the self-verification testing for the smaller

18 manufacturers, the Department is going to be much more

19 focused on those manufacturers to make sure they're

20 being honest. So naturally they would audit those at a

21 higher --

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Tim has a comment down there.
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1 MR. EISNER: Can we do -- move the ones at

2 the bottom that we've crossed off to another page and

3 enlarge the remaining ones?

4 MR. STANONIK: So you're telling me the audit

5 is really just another verification test.

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: With a witness, right? With

7 a witness? I think that's what that means.

8 MR. STANONIK: Okay. I guess --

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't know. I don't know.

10 MR. STANONIK: I'm trying to sort it out.

11 But if that's the case, why don't we just say to make

12 that option there will be another verification test

13 conducted by a third party. There will be at least one

14 of those or conducted by DOE.

15 I'm looking at it, and I see "audit." That's

16 a different word than "verification," and yet what you

17 have just told me, this won't affect the audit. It is

18 just -- we are going to do one more verification. It's

19 an advertising kind of thing. That's what it is.

20 MR. BALLO: This is Tim. I guess I have a

21 concern that what the audit is supposed to get at is

22 the accuracy of the testing or the effectiveness of the
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1 testing. And if what happens is just that DOE is going

2 to do an assessment test, yeah, that tells you that

3 product didn't pass, but it doesn't tell you anything

4 about the test procedures that you are running at your

5 lab.

6 MR. STEPHENS: Well, what would happen is --

7 what I was foreseeing with this was that if you do --

8 if you select this option, then the Department would be

9 doing more assessment testing. And if you had a

10 failure there, then the manufacturer would be penalized

11 more severely, because we need some way to hold these -

12 - we need to give these manufacturers this type of

13 option, but we need to make sure that they understand

14 the consequences of not living up to the standard.

15 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim Amrane with AHRI.

16 From AHRI's standpoint, I believe that we need to have

17 some sort of a third party overview of all of this. So

18 for me only the two options are acceptable; the rest

19 should be deleted, because then the rest it is up to

20 the manufacturers. There is no supervision. There is

21 nothing, basically, for accepting the data from the

22 manufacturer as something that you know at face value.
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1 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp with Goodman. I will

2 second that. And I guess I would suggest that maybe

3 what we ought to do to move this -- help move this

4 along is discuss these options by product category,

5 which is really Bob Whitwell's idea.

6 But for commercial HVAC, the majority of the

7 product, I will personally not agree to anything

8 besides options one and two. And option two would only

9 be allowed if option one is not possible for commercial

10 HVAC product and some other product categories -- for

11 example, size limitations or whatever.

12 If it can't be tested, I guess my going-in

13 position is the first bullet is the only option, and is

14 the primary option, unless it is a physical

15 impossibility, and then you accept the second bullet.

16 That's my going-in position, and I would rather us

17 discuss it by product category, so that--

18 MR. EISNER: Does anybody disagree with the

19 idea that we now start trying to do it by category?

20 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey, and I strongly

21 endorse that because I think the culture of the

22 different product categories and the expectations
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1 really hit the load at this point. And I might well

2 agree with Rusty on commercial, but I'm hearing

3 concerns about that for some of the more limited

4 production, commercial refrigeration, for example --

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, let's talk about the

6 one that has been not the easiest. Do you think it's

7 the easiest for this one, this discussion, commercial

8 HVAC?

9 MS. DANE: Up until now, we haven't really --

10 MR. EISNER: It's commercial HVAC.

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: And this encompasses --

12 MS. HOOTMAN: This encompasses commercial

13 HVAC and --

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: PTACs.

15 MR. SACHS: What about commercial water

16 heaters?

17 MS. HOOTMAN: Water source heat pumps.

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: No.

19 MR. EISNER: Okay.

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think we're going to try to

21 move commercial water heaters to --

22 MALE SPEAKER: SBVUs.
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: CRACs.

2 MS. HOOTMAN: Commercial HVAC.

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Air-cooled/water-cooled.

4 MS. HOOTMAN: Well, we have some issues on

5 water-cooled.

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Do we need to expand the

7 list, or we're still --

8 MS. HOOTMAN: And evaporative-cooled is not -

9 - none of the labs can do it. None of the nationally

10 recognized labs can do it.

11 MR. EISNER: Well, it shouldn't be in this

12 category.

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: None of the labs have budgets

14 to --

15 MR. EISNER: So all of those in the first

16 bullet --

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Do we think fundamentally the

18 requirements should be -- I mean, in theory they should

19 be the same. Practically speaking --

20 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. It gets back to old

21 test procedures.

22 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. Just a
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1 question. Are there any small manufacturers

2 represented in any of these other product categories?

3 MR. HON: Yes.

4 MR. SACHS: Mark. Yes.

5 MR. FLY: Yes. I'm going to get up and speak

6 for people that I used to work for.

7 There are small HVAC manufacturers, typically

8 unitary, very large mostly, that are not represented

9 here, that build one-offs. And I don't know that we

10 adequately covered how we are going to address a

11 completely custom sheet of paper on every unit. But I

12 don't see where it's excluded.

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: There are no exclusions yet.

14 I do expect that we will need some type of way to deal

15 with completely custom one-off equipment, period.

16 Across the board, period. So I would say that

17 shouldn't -- I mean, the Department acknowledges that

18 we are going to have to deal with it. There is going

19 to have to be -- obviously you can't say, you know, X

20 percent helps you verify and --

21 MR. FLY: I mean, that's the big issue on

22 doing this because how do you -- you know, every unit
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1 you build is a brand-new basic model, and it adds to

2 DOE --

3 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. Could we just up

4 there under commercial HVAC "except one-offs," just at

5 the top, so somebody --

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Sure.

7 MR. EISNER: As I understand it, that's

8 probably going to be on every slide.

9 MR. SACHS: It may well be, but I think in

10 terms of third parties who aren't here reading this --

11 MS. BARHYDT: We're going to have to deal

12 with them separately.

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: And it may just be that for

14 those DOE has the discussion to -- talk to the

15 manufacturer and deal with it as it needs to at that

16 point, because putting a requirement on them, plus

17 putting a requirement on us -- putting a requirement on

18 --

19 MR. FLY: A lot of that stuff will not fit in

20 --

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Exactly. That's what I'm

22 saying. It may not be reasonable.
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1 MR. FLY: If you're building equipment for

2 Ford Motor Company engine plants --

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Just put "one-off."

4 MR. FLY: Even though it might be 63 --

5 (Simultaneous discussion.)

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Rusty, do you want to --

7 sorry. I wasn't speaking for you, but do you want the

8 step one, step two?

9 MR. THARP: Yes.

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: So you must pass the 17025

11 labs, which the DOE has the procedure within its scope.

12 And if you can't, then you can do a second one if it's

13 not available.

14 MR. THARP: And I would actually throw in

15 that it should be a lab in North America.

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't think I can do that.

17 MR. EISNER: Are you saying it should be a

18 lab in North America, or do you want to restrict it to

19 the United States? I just --

20 MS. MEYERS: Does 17025 cover --

21 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah.

22 MR. THARP: Because there are labs, ISO
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1 17025, internationally -- and I would think if you're

2 distributing products and selling products in the

3 United States, that you should have verification

4 testing done here.

5 MR. HON: It's a legal issue as well.

6 MR. WHITWELL: I guess another way maybe that

7 we could get around -- Bob Whitwell from Carrier. And

8 maybe we are going to talk about this, but what is the

9 process for a lab to get say qualified or to be able to

10 run this verification testing? Because I think the

11 concern is that there might be a lab that has some, you

12 know, 17025, but may not have experience running tests

13 on certain types of equipment.

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: These are the laboratory

15 requirements. What else would need to be listed to

16 prove that?

17 MR. AMRANE: Karim Amrane, AHRI. I think

18 Bill has already talked about it. There is -- at AHRI

19 we have a list of requirements.

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: What are they?

21 MR. AMRANE: Well, maybe he can speak on

22 that.
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: What is the list?

2 MR. TRITSIS: We will share it with you. We

3 have no problem. For particular products, we have a

4 list of setup requirements and qualifying laboratory

5 requirements that we use to qualify laboratories.

6 That, of course, is 17025.

7 The other point that Bob made regarding

8 international labs that are 17025, you might want to

9 continue -- if a product is coming from those labs, you

10 have some sort of random testing here in the U.S. for

11 those products.

12 MR. WOSTAL: Wes Wostal with ClimateMaster.

13 Can you guys hear me?

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.

15 MR. WOSTAL: Okay. Thank you. I have a

16 couple of questions and comments. First off, with the

17 first bullet, is that 17025 accredited? Or, you know,

18 I noticed that we took the satellite program off, and I

19 think that was Rusty that suggested that. I'm not

20 certain, you know, why you are suggesting that.

21 But in the smaller companies, and I'm

22 specifically speaking of a water source, that's the
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1 industry that we're in, but I don't think very many

2 companies are going to have 17025 accredited. Most

3 everybody is going to most likely be a satellite

4 program through, you know, a body such as maybe ETLs or

5 something like that. And I think that is going to

6 really, you know, potentially put quite a burden on

7 some of the smaller manufacturers.

8 And the other thing I was going to say is in

9 regards to something that was just brought up with what

10 makes a laboratory approved, a third party laboratory

11 approved, the water source heat pumps section right now

12 is going through the approval process to approve

13 another third party testing laboratory for AHRI annual

14 testing.

15 And basically in the testing that we have had

16 done -- and this other third party that we are doing

17 the testing with, they meet all of the requirements.

18 But when they did the first testing on our products,

19 they would have failed, or they did fail. We did

20 basically a round robin. We had the test laboratories

21 that everybody is using today do testing on a product,

22 and then it was sent to the other lab that is being --
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1 we are trying to approve. And the test data came back

2 and the product would have failed.

3 And once we started digging into everything,

4 we found out that it boiled down to a pressure drop

5 reading that was not being taken correctly. So I do

6 have concerns about just any laboratory that carries

7 the credentials being selected and being approved for

8 DOE to send out product and have it tested at.

9 So the other thing is I would like to have

10 the satellite program put back on because I think most

11 small manufacturers -- I would go as far as to say that

12 within the water source industry there may be a lot of

13 manufacturers that their labs aren't even 17025

14 satellite, which I think is a good thing. I think it

15 improves the credibility, and it gives good processes

16 for your lab. I think it's a good thing, but I think

17 that should be a minimum requirement here, because

18 otherwise probably almost the entire water source

19 industry is going to have to have 17025 lab personnel

20 brought in to witness their testing, and that gets

21 expensive.

22 MS. HOOTMAN: No, Wes. This is Jill Hootman
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1 from Trane. Wes, what we're saying is you would have

2 your stuff tested through AHRI at the labs that AHRI is

3 doing. That's what the first one says. That's what

4 the first bullet says.

5 MR. WOSTAL: Okay.

6 MS. HOOTMAN: And then, only then, if you did

7 not have -- if you had a unit that somehow couldn't fit

8 in that test lab for configuration reasons or whatever,

9 then -- only then would you have it tested at your own

10 lab with an independent lab personnel who they have

11 accredited to 17025 witnessing it.

12 So you would not have to bring your lab up

13 and get accreditation to the satellite program.

14 MR. WOSTAL: Okay.

15 MS. HOOTMAN: You would not have to do that.

16 You could still follow the procedures, but you didn't

17 have to go and spend the money to get that.

18 MR. WOSTAL: Okay.

19 MS. HOOTMAN: So actually, you know, it has

20 taken you -- it has taken that pressure off of the

21 small manufacturer of not having to pay for that

22 satellite accreditation.
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1 MR. WOSTAL: So this would be done through

2 the AHRI program.

3 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah.

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: It does not have to be.

5 MR. WOSTAL: Or equivalent.

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: It needs to be done through a

7 program. The manufacturer could contract with 17025

8 third party laws themselves, period.

9 MR. THARP: And also, one thing we need to --

10 Rusty Tharp with Goodman. One thing we need to

11 remember is the quantity of product being tested also

12 goes into how much burden there is and --

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: They're not there yet.

14 MR. THARP: They haven't gotten there yet.

15 But based on -- it's not -- I guess my assumption is

16 it's going to be significantly less than what I've got

17 today.

18 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. I've

19 got to ask, Harvey, what is this going to do to

20 innovation? The small companies on the technology

21 corridor in Boston that have a great idea for something

22 that is really going to be a big, tremendous advantage
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1 to the country overall, they are not going to be able

2 to get in the door.

3 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. I'm sensitive to

4 this. I think we're doing everything possible at the

5 front end to reduce the barriers to invasion,

6 particularly by greatly expanding the ability to use

7 simulation to show the compliance with small volume

8 products.

9 At some point, verification is a cost of

10 business, like safety testing. I don't mean this in a

11 lecturing sense. As much as I trust you, I'm not sure

12 either one of us trusts the other guy, the magic

13 solution like I get coming over my door once a week.

14 And at some point we need to have the minimal

15 credible deterrence defined, and we've -- and I think

16 what we're negotiating now is what that is. And I

17 don't find myself convinced yet that this is -- that

18 this, at the back end of verification, without even

19 negotiating how many, is going to be the innovation

20 killer.

21 MR. THARP: I'll throw in for Ashley that, if

22 there is a significant technology difference, there is
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1 also the waiver process. Correct?

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: There is a waiver process for

3 the test procedure, not for -- I mean, not for testing.

4 MS. BARHYDT: Not for testing.

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: There's a procedure used for

6 testing.

7 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik with AHRI.

8 And, again, we've kind of lost the sequence here.

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, the product is being

10 distributed in commerce for sale. I mean, this is not

11 a prototype. This is not something that is being

12 developed. This is not in a laboratory. This is "I am

13 selling this product to consumers." We are at that

14 stage.

15 MR. STANONIK: The hindrance to innovation,

16 if there is one, would be if the test procedure didn't

17 -- okay. You came up with some wonderful thing that

18 improved energy efficiency, and it wasn't captured by

19 the test procedure. Those are a hindrance to

20 innovation because you don't have a means to convey to

21 whoever that in fact you have made a more efficient

22 product.
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1 And, A, you have to have somebody doing those

2 tests. You can't just do it out on paper. At some

3 point you've got to run the test. And you have to

4 figure out what kind of waiver you would need to

5 capture the benefit of the innovation.

6 But we're talking about the point -- you're

7 all past that. You're manufacturing, you're spitting

8 our units or making custom units, or whatever, and

9 you're distributing. This is -- at this point of

10 verification testing, those issues should have been

11 resolved or you don't have a product.

12 MR. BALLO: To the issue of the small

13 manufacturer -- this is Tim Ballo -- to me it seems

14 more valuable to have those manufacturers who face a

15 special burden conducting less testing but have that

16 testing be really good than to have them conducting a

17 lot of their own testing that, you know, is tying up

18 their resources and is providing test results that I

19 don't necessarily have the highest degree of confidence

20 in, because it happens -- it is not meeting the same

21 standards as the other test.

22 So I would rather reduce the number of tests
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1 rather than the, you know, stringency of the testing.

2 MALE SPEAKER: Do either.

3 MR. BALLO: Yes.

4 MR. STEPHENS: I have reached my end of rant,

5 as Harvey says.

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: You're rubbing off on people.

7 MR. STEPHENS: I think everybody understands

8 my position, and I don't think it's worth sidetracking

9 or derailing this process. So --

10 MR. BAUMAN: This is Jeff Bauman with

11 National. We build some SPDUs, so I guess we have a

12 small dog in the fight, but I'm trying to understand

13 why the second thing under "Satellite Program," if you

14 run a satellite program, it would seem to be a benefit

15 to be able to have a witness test for -- to test SPDUs,

16 if not the other products, because, again, there is

17 obviously a cost to doing that, but it helps limit in

18 some ways to the -- you know, they're coming in,

19 they're picking the unit, they're doing the test. A

20 third party lab is coming in and overseeing the whole

21 process. In addition, in fact, they have pre-certified

22 your lab in their satellite program.
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1 MR. KLEISS: This is Jeff Kleiss, Lochinvar.

2 I don't know if any of the products within these

3 different classes would fall into this, but I am

4 concerned about the one-off manufacturer that builds to

5 order and has a customer waiting for equipment. That

6 equipment is selected to be tested, and now I'm going

7 to have to tell my customer I have to ship this one-off

8 product that has been selected to testing to another

9 lab. It is going to be put in the queue, be tested,

10 and then you've got to wait for delivery of your

11 product until they're done with that process.

12 MS. BARHYDT: It says excluding one-offs.

13 MR. KLEISS: Oh, it does? I'm sorry.

14 MS. BARHYDT: You're at the far end of the

15 table.

16 MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs. I thank DOE for

17 putting both of the two small monitors at the same end

18 of the room.

19 End of rant.

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Do you want to do security

21 procedures after lunch, Harvey?

22 MS. BARHYDT: So I think DOE would want to
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1 make explicit that we could show the mean time duration

2 of the certification testing and the witness as well.

3 MR. MYERS: Sure.

4 MR. KOJAK: How do --

5 MS. HOOTMAN: What you can't see on the phone

6 is we're all nodding.

7 MR. FLY: Mark Fly with AAON. That will

8 require notification.

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: You will have to tell us what

10 you're testing, when you're testing, and where you're

11 testing. That is going to be part of, how do I get

12 approval, right?

13 MS. BARHYDT: None of these labs are in sunny

14 Hawaii, so you're not going to get --

15 MS. HOOTMAN: I have one in Florida, so --

16 MS. BARHYDT: Anything else for HVAC? Are we

17 good?

18 MR. BAUMAN: This is Jeff Baumann. We

19 skipped over my --

20 MS. BARHYDT: Oh, sorry.

21 MR. BAUMAN: -- the second item in the first

22 part that I just pulled up. Next one down.
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1 MS. HOOTMAN: So why wouldn't it -- my

2 question would be, why wouldn't a satellite -- I don't

3 want to be forced into having the satellite.

4 MR. BAUMAN: You can do what you're doing now

5 under 17025 and send it for them to do tests.

6 MS. HOOTMAN: But there are cases where they

7 physically can't fit into the rooms in the labs.

8 MR. BAUMAN: In that case, you could do

9 manufacturer witness test.

10 MR. FLY: 17025 lab witness test.

11 MR. BAUMAN: Correct. So what I'm saying is,

12 why is that option only available if you can't do the

13 first one?

14 MR. EISNER: I think that's because people

15 suggested you have to do the first one.

16 MR. BAUMAN: Right. I'm asking -- the

17 reverse of that is, why wouldn't you offer that for

18 other products to keep -- again, the experience with

19 the labs was they are very tied up, and they are, you

20 know, trying to help also the process.

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: I'd rather it would be the

22 first --
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1 MR. BAUMAN: You're saying there is other

2 constraints besides size. It could be capacity of the

3 lab and the scheduling and things like that.

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, that's --

5 MR. BAUMAN: And you have -- I'd say also

6 that you could be -- you would be certified in the

7 satellite program and decide, okay, I'm going to send

8 this for a witness test instead. You'd have to be

9 registered in a satellite program, one that is --

10 number one means you can't be in a satellite, you can

11 for a commercial --

12 MR. STANONIK: I've got a corollary to that

13 question, maybe as a clarification. The way that seems

14 to read it says, "If the laboratory has the capacity,

15 you have to have it tested there."

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Have the capability to test

17 it.

18 MR. STANONIK: Okay. But shouldn't the other

19 factor be -- shouldn't a factor be the cost of

20 transporting the equipment? I mean, there are some

21 situations, maybe not as -- well, I know in other

22 programs, but they might have the capacity to become
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1 truly cost prohibitive, to ship the problem all the way

2 across wherever.

3 MS. HOOTMAN: Well, that's why -- kind of

4 what Rusty was getting at about North America. I don't

5 want to take my unit that is 55-foot long, 12-foot

6 tall, 14- foot wide and ship it to India for some test.

7 That's a significant cost.

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. So --

9 MS. HOOTMAN: That's why we were trying to

10 put the "North America," because if it's made in North

11 America it needs to be tested in North America.

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. But if we leave it

13 open option -- like I can understand Rusty may always

14 choose to do the 17025 lab, you know, for his products.

15 But if we leave the option open-ended, I mean, really

16 this is about, you know, whoever is running that

17 verification program gets the choice.

18 And if it's the manufacturer that's running

19 the verification program, you get the choice for your

20 product. And if your preference is to always use one

21 over the other, you would do it. You would know the

22 cost of shipping. You would know which lab you want to
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1 use. You would know -- so I guess I don't see the harm

2 in leaving a choice.

3 MS. DANE: I think it's the word "must." You

4 know, to me when I read that --

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: No. If you take that off,

6 then you have to test it. I mean, that is an option.

7 MS. DANE: But the satellite program may have

8 them coming to our facility to test.

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's reflected in the

10 number two option. When you've tested your facility

11 with the 17025, people will come to you.

12 (Simultaneous discussion.)

13 MR. KOJAK: This is basically saying they're

14 going to use the DOE testing, same to AHRI

15 certification.

16 MS. DANE: Or you might want to -- I'm just

17 saying that the -- if the language is right by the time

18 you get to me, then I'll --

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: This is what the language

20 would be.

21 MR. KOJAK: It's just basically saying that

22 when -- if they're part of the AHRI program and they're
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1 doing their certification testing, they can use that

2 data to prove that it's DOE-verified.

3 MS. BARHYDT: What?

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't understand the

5 question. Let's just say an entity, let's just say a

6 manufacturer - - I am Ashley's manufacturing facility,

7 and I want DOE to acknowledge my program. I want to

8 verify -- you know, DOE to acknowledge my own

9 verification.

10 I have two options for testing. I test in a

11 17025 lab for all my products that I need to have

12 verified. We're only talking about laboratory

13 requirements at this point. Or I test in my own lab

14 with my own people, but I bring in someone to watch me

15 do the verification test 17025 accredited, period.

16 MR. KOJAK: So later you are going to come up

17 with some rules of how products get selected that --

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. So we'll talk about how

19 products get selected, where from, when DOE has to be

20 notified, what DOE has to be notified about, all that

21 kind of stuff. This is just the laboratory

22 requirements; where am I testing?
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1 MR. EISNER: I think it has to be reworded,

2 that you do your test, either in the first bullet or

3 the second bullet.

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. I mean, we can

5 wordsmith the language, but, yes --

6 MR. AMRANE: Karim Amrane, AHRI. I think we

7 need to go just beyond the 17025 requirements. I think

8 there are additional requirements that must be put in

9 place, because 17025 doesn't tell you --

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: And that's why I can --

11 MR. AMRANE: -- if you really can --

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- is it possible for AHRI to

13 present those after --

14 MR. AMRANE: We can present that tomorrow.

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: Can we not get it during

16 lunch?

17 MR. AMRANE: I don't know if we can --

18 MR. TRITSIS: I have email, but, you know,

19 obviously it's --

20 MR. BAUMAN: I'll say, too, Ashley, as far as

21 the commercial, when we get to it, what may have some

22 value here is also the -- all of the work EnergyStar
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1 and EPA have done with the basis for certification

2 bodies. So their program may be similar because they

3 call out the specific certifications and things in

4 their information that they provided and --

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: While we're talking about

6 this, I was under the impression that -- and, pardon

7 me, because I'm just not as familiar with this as some

8 other people in the room. But for those that have the

9 accreditations or know a lot about 17025, do you know

10 if 17025 requires third party? What is --

11 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers, PVI. 17025

12 is for third party labs only. You have to be -- 17025,

13 part of its --

14 MR. THARP: That is incorrect.

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: That is not my understanding.

16 MR. GORMAN: John Gorman, CSA. Frank, I

17 don't think that's correct. Typically, it is used by

18 third party folks who want to get accreditation from a

19 full member, signatory, or whatever. But an

20 independent lab - - your lab and your manufacturing

21 site can be accredited by -- through an ILAC member to

22 be a 17025 lab.
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, I mean, the first option

2 here, there are supposed to also be third parties. So

3 what is the word that encompasses that? Is it

4 nationally NRDLE (ph) or --

5 MR. GORMAN: NRDLE is the designation

6 provided by OSHA. So, I mean, you'd better be careful

7 about that, NRDLE as you --

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, how about third party?

9 Third party 17025? Are we okay with that for now?

10 (Simultaneous discussion.)

11 MR. GORMAN: 17025 lab has got accreditation

12 to test whatever procedures come up.

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay.

14 MR. GORMAN: But I understand what 17025

15 means is it sets up a process, and it sets rules in

16 place for management and structure and all of those

17 sorts of things. You know, it doesn't automatically

18 guarantee that a laboratory is proficient and running.

19 So you've got to make sure you tie all of that

20 together.

21 What we do, we get accreditation from the

22 folks that accredit us at CSA, we can go out and pose
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1 very much the same rules on laboratories that we then

2 will go witness test data or accept data from in one of

3 our many programs.

4 So for safety certification, I don't know

5 what you mean by "satellite" either. What does

6 "satellite" mean? That keeps kicking around. Is that

7 an official thing, or is that just --

8 MR. MYERS: That's one laboratory -- one

9 17025 laboratory's definition of their approval

10 process.

11 MR. GORMAN: Okay.

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right.

13 (Simultaneous discussion.)

14 MR. GORMAN: So what we do is we're

15 accredited by highlighted gold member bodies under

16 17025 to be in the program. We then will go to

17 manufacturers' labs and accredit those labs using very

18 much the same set of rules. That allows that

19 laboratory, which is typically affiliated with a

20 manufacturer --

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right.

22 MR. GORMAN: -- to submit data to us -- that
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1 data as part of safety certification or energy, Energy

2 Star, or whatever it might be. So that's what we do

3 all the time in our business. If that's what this is

4 getting at, then --

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: That would fall under bullet

6 two.

7 MR. GORMAN: You've got to be careful now.

8 You have a third party. I think that makes more sense

9 to me when you put those words in --

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. That's what I was

11 trying to distinguish.

12 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. I went

13 out last week and looked at the standard, and I pulled

14 a couple of sentences. I think I sent them to Laura.

15 So taking it from that and rewording it a little bit to

16 fit our purposes, how about "Manufacturer shall submit

17 accredited verification test results using ISO/IEC

18 17025 as the basis for their test program." That's not

19 exactly what you said, but it gets to the point about

20 only want to use accredited labs or you want to have

21 confidence in the data.

22 MS. MEYERS: I would like to use proficient
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1 labs.

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Newer.

3 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. It's accredited labs,

4 but it's also labs that have can test --

5 MS. MEYERS: It's accredited labs.

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I think this is the best

7 that we're going to do for now. To the extent there

8 are additional characteristics or requirements of labs

9 that we can think of during lunch or whatever, or that

10 you guys have that you're willing to share, we can add

11 to the list that would ensure proficiency, or help

12 ensure that, you know, you are welcome to -- these seem

13 like a reasonable, good first step for lab

14 requirements.

15 MR. WOSTAL: This is Wes at ClimateMaster. I

16 just want to throw one thing in. I have heard a lot of

17 people saying "accredited." Would it make sense to say

18 17025 accredited lab in these bullets, or is that just

19 understood?

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. We can add that word.

21 I think it was understood, but --

22 MR. EISNER: Everybody all right with where
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1 we are on this? Should be start a new slide for more

2 equipment?

3 MR. GORMAN: This is John Gorman, CSA again.

4 I would shy away from the word "accredited." A third

5 party such as CSA, we would probably recognize the

6 laboratory's capability to perform tests. That's our

7 recognition of accredited, and it gets back into the

8 separate entity of what you mean. Obviously, it has to

9 be done by a recognized lab, by a third party.

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, I guess that's the

11 question. To be a third party 17, whatever, I mean, to

12 really meet that definition, aren't you being

13 accredited by?

14 MR. GORMAN: As an agency, I am accredited by

15 a recognized entity that does this as a living. The

16 high standards of my programs will then go out to a

17 laboratory and recognize their ability to --

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: See, we're not -- that's not

19 a bullet on ours. Ours is --

20 MS. BARHYDT: Only the first situation.

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: The second bullet is, yes,

22 you can test in a lab at a manufacturer's site with the
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1 manufacturer's personnel, but you have to be present.

2 Your accreditations come with you. You have to be

3 present. The accreditation is not on the

4 manufacturer's ability, though. That is the

5 difference.

6 MR. GORMAN: That's okay.

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, that's a different

8 bullet, right? That's the third bullet is the

9 satellite witness program.

10 MR. GORMAN: I recognize that the proper

11 equipment --

12 (Simultaneous discussion.)

13 MR. GORMAN: The laboratory must have -- in

14 my opinion, I recognize their ability to run the test,

15 with the proper calibrating for all of --

16 (Simultaneous discussion.)

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think that's a valid point.

18 I just don't know if --

19 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. That very same thing

20 happened. You know, the lab sent us or the company

21 sent us what had to be done before we could do that

22 test. So we had to send them our calibrations and do
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1 all of that kind of stuff. So, yeah, there is some

2 checklist of "I'll come witness it," but, you know, I'm

3 coming to witness it to these things, these procedures.

4 MR. BAUMAN: I don't mean to talk nicely

5 about EPA with the DOE people in the room.

6 They call it manufacturers' recognized

7 witness test lab or witness test lab that -- different

8 acronyms, but my feeling was this would be -- that

9 would be part of this is that the lab would be the

10 satellite or manufacturer recognized test lab, and then

11 they would be able to have witnessed testing.

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: So we can make the

13 requirement that the manufacturers' labs also have to

14 have some kind of recognition from a third party 17025-

15 accredited lab. But that doesn't absolve them from

16 having to have someone from the third party lab onsite.

17 I was under the impression that people did

18 not want to add the additional. So you do want to add

19 the additional, you know, requirement for the

20 manufacturers' facility. The second bullet, as I read

21 it, doesn't have any requirements other than maybe

22 something to run the DOE test or whatever.
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1 The burden is placed on the third party, you

2 know, lab that is witnessing the testing to say either

3 yes or no; yes, they're running the test correctly;

4 yes, they're following the procedures; or no, they're

5 not and notify DOE. I mean, you are going there as an

6 extension of DOE, basically.

7 MS. BARHYDT: So the way I would see this is

8 that one test lab may have certain policies of what

9 they want to see to be willing to sign off on the test,

10 and another lab may have a different set of criteria

11 for what they want to see to sign off on the test.

12 What matters to us is that there is an

13 independent third party who is accredited to 17025 and

14 is proficient, who is willing to sign off on the test.

15 And it's up to them to figure out what they want their

16 standard to be, and it sounds like CSA isn't going to

17 do that unless you are already a recognized lab, by

18 you, whereas I vaguely recall from the last meeting

19 that somebody was saying that they thought that their

20 company would actually go out and just show up and look

21 at all of the paperwork and be willing to sign off on

22 it.
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1 So I would prefer to not put additional

2 requirements in here and let the third party labs

3 figure out what they want to see to be willing to stand

4 behind it.

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. Signing off on those -

6 - on that --

7 MR. BAUMAN: But that's not on the bullets.

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: It is.

9 MR. BAUMAN: Which one?

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: The second one.

11 MS. BARHYDT: Well, third one.

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. Third one down, sorry.

13 MR. STANONIK: This is Frank Stanonik. And,

14 John, the fact that the third party agency is 17025-

15 accredited, in fact doesn't that establish some minimum

16 criteria by which they can do that second bullet? I

17 mean --

18 MR. BAUMAN: It absolutely does, yes.

19 MR. STANONIK: Right. Okay. Yeah.

20 MR. BAUMAN: So it goes to the lowest one.

21 There is some consistent requirements of the 17025 that

22 just how the lab operates, it would address how that
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1 lab would validate the witness test facility.

2 MR. KOJAK: They would set up their own

3 requirements.

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: You would. You all would.

5 And it --

6 MR. KOJAK: You have to do these things to --

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, absolutely. For you to

8 approve that verification with --

9 MR. STANONIK: But they still would have to

10 meet what you have to do to be 17025 --

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. So you're extending

12 your, you know, third party expertise to that test,

13 period.

14 MR. BAUMAN: Energy Star has a list of --

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's very different than

16 this.

17 MR. BAUMAN: They're a certification program.

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: It is very different.

19 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers, PVI. It

20 seems that the essential thing in the third bullet that

21 you must test in manufacturer's lab -- is that it is

22 witnessed, someone is onsite --
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: An independent person.

2 MR. MYERS: -- personnel employed by the

3 third party lab. That is the essential element here.

4 The one that some would like to have on there -- and

5 when we get the other product type this necessarily has

6 to be on there -- is what we've been calling the

7 satellite program where the manufacturer's lab and

8 personnel have to go under review, and they are under

9 the auspices of the 17025 lab, but a person employed by

10 the third party lab does not have to be onsite for

11 every test. They can be, but they are not required to

12 be. That's the next level that is not on this list.

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. Read the line above

14 that.

15 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. And what's

16 important to me -- and I want to just make sure I'm

17 understanding it correctly -- is that this third party

18 lab is manufacturer-selected rather than DOE-selected.

19 So the manufacturer is never going to be in the

20 position, unless he chooses to, of having to train the

21 lab on how to test the product.

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Nope. Nope. They get to --
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1 I assume they are going to pick whichever lab they --

2 MR. SACHS: So we can start and race to the

3 bottom.

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: We can start. There's not a

5 whole lot of options out there.

6 MR. SACHS: I'm comfortable.

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay.

8 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. What product wants to go

9 next?

10 MR. KLEISS: Jeff Kleiss.

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: So is there anything

12 different here? I'm sorry. Go ahead, Jeff.

13 MR. KLEISS: Based on the way that this is

14 worded, I would be comfortable with adding "commercial

15 water heaters and water boilers" to this same

16 procedure.

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Great. We were supposed to

18 add "furnaces" to this already; right?

19 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. "Furnaces" should have

20 been up on the --

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. Sorry.

22 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers. Without the
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1 addition of the third bullet where you can have what

2 I've been calling the satellite program, where you can

3 be authorized and reviewed, but that a third party

4 employee does not have to be there, I would have to add

5 that before I could add "water heaters and boilers."

6 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. I

7 understand the Department's concern that some

8 manufacturers have been trying to get away with things.

9 I mean, after all, moving to Boston, I am very familiar

10 with the fact that the country was started by people

11 that didn't want to pay taxes.

12 But the program we are setting up here is

13 penalizing everyone before anybody messes up, going

14 after the manufacturers that do try to get away with

15 something.

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Your ask is for DOE not to

17 test your products.

18 MR. STEPHENS: No. My request is that if we

19 mess up, let us know and deal with us.

20 MS. HOOTMAN: How are they going to know that

21 you messed up?

22 MR. STANONIK: How are you going to know you
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1 messed up?

2 MS. HOOTMAN: Without doing their

3 verification testing?

4 MR. STEPHENS: Well, I'm not saying don't do

5 the verification testing. I'm not saying that at all.

6 MR. GORMAN: John Gorman again from CSA. To

7 Frank's point, we have several programs where we

8 accredit what's called a satellite lab after probably

9 years of working with them to perform the testing

10 independent of us doing the witness test. We allow

11 that for safety certification for a lot of products, so

12 I don't know why we wouldn't necessarily want to allow

13 that for industry verification as well.

14 So there are programs that we have that are

15 permitted through our accreditation, permitted through

16 ISO 17025, and those that accredit to that, that allow

17 this to happen. So what it requires is that we do

18 manual audit of that facility and go over the records

19 and perhaps flag them all for test and at the same time

20 review them. But we don't necessarily require that we

21 have to witness every test done by that manufacturer.

22 We don't allow everyone to do this; only the
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1 high-level companies that we have worked with for years

2 and have confidence in their people and their equipment

3 and their process to be able to do that. So we do this

4 quite often for manufacturers I think that support what

5 we're talking about.

6 So, not saying DOE has to do that, but I'm

7 saying we allow that in many of our programs today for

8 some of the -- for the safety approvals that we do do.

9 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers, PVI. I know

10 that same situation exists for other laboratories in

11 the country that run these kinds of tests. That it is

12 limited to those that have the expertise, the depth of

13 knowledge.

14 Having worked with them long enough to

15 understand that they know all of those ins and outs,

16 the same as the employee in the third party lab, there

17 is confidence to put their good name, the laboratory's

18 good name, on the work that --

19 MR. GORMAN: The third party takes

20 responsibility for all of that, so the work done by the

21 satellite lab or the manufacturer's lab in this high

22 level program, you know, we are still taking
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1 responsibility for and liability, if you want to put it

2 to that level, for the work that they do. So it's not

3 like we're just saying, "Go do it, have a good time,

4 submit data when you get around to it." This is very

5 controlled and very high level program, and that's --

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: All right. So we have two

7 conflicting viewpoints here. Do we have a third

8 viewpoint?

9 I would like someone to break the --

10 MS. MEYERS: Well, I think it's a good point.

11 I think, you know, what we have on this slide -- it

12 seems like what we need to be focusing on are the lab

13 requirements, the DOE verification program. It's kind

14 of a real nuance that perhaps I think we need to -- we

15 get it from that viewpoint.

16 So DOE requires manufacturers' products to

17 meet certain requirements. And if a lab is running a

18 verification program for DOE energy efficiency program,

19 then they need to have certain requirements. I think

20 if we look at it from that viewpoint, we might twist

21 these bullets around a little bit.

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Frank.
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1 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, AHRI. Another

2 issue on this last point Frank Myers was talking about,

3 first of all, in that situation -- and I realize this

4 is to be discussed -- how do you make a random

5 selection? I mean, the manufacturer is making the

6 selection. So --

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: There's nothing on there that

8 says that.

9 MR. STANONIK: Pardon?

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: There's nothing on there that

11 says that.

12 MR. STANONIK: I know. I know. But the

13 other point and the question to Frank is, is this more

14 a situation that is relatable to one-off or custom-made

15 products? Because if it is, again, we are excluding

16 those.

17 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers. I didn't

18 mean to have it excluded. It does facilitate some

19 manufacturers of one-off products to be able to run the

20 test, but it is really a recognition that, as John

21 said, John Gorman said, that there are manufacturers

22 who have the experience and expertise that the third
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1 party laboratory is willing to put their good name

2 against that manufacturer running the test. I'd like

3 to be able to do that. It's a substantial cost

4 savings.

5 MR. KOJAK: Yeah. This is Mike Kojak with

6 UL. I agree with Frank, too, that that should be an

7 option on there because there are certain manufacturers

8 that are already at that level, and they are trusted

9 and have gone through their yearly audits, that they

10 are capable of running those tests. And I think that

11 should be an option on there for manufacturers that are

12 already in those types of programs to be able to

13 utilize that.

14 MR. KLEISS: Jeff Kleiss, Lochinvar. I'll

15 agree.

16 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, AHRI. But did

17 I hear that there is an annual audit?

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: That was the --

19 MR. STANONIK: So, in fact, that bullet could

20 be third party personnel doesn't have to be at the

21 facility for testing, but lab is annually --

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: It was. Lab was annually
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1 audited, and the full test reports go to DOE.

2 MR. STANONIK: But potentially it could say

3 that the lab is annually certified by a 17025 lab, and

4 at least one test is conducted under -- with personnel

5 present. Is that redundant?

6 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers. I know in

7 our case the annual certification is open to that. On

8 occasion, over the years, we have actually conducted

9 tests. Other times, they have focused in other areas

10 they thought were more important. So I would hate to

11 have that as a new requirement for what I'm calling a

12 satellite lab. Just the annual verification of our

13 capabilities is, I think, adequate.

14 MR. MYERS: I don't think there was general

15 agreement to the witness test. That was just something

16 that

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't think there was

18 general agreement to the fourth bullet.

19 MR. BAUMAN: This is Jeff Bauman, National.

20 There is an elephant that's out there, too. Should the

21 lab be 17065, that's -- I mean, 17025 is just

22 competency to run a test. You know, 17065 is we're
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1 certifying the product. So that's a harder -- I

2 believe it's a harder standard to meet.

3 MR. TRITSIS: That's a very good point.

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: What do you mean by

5 "certifying products," though?

6 MR. BAUMAN: Basically, that they are --

7 17065 - - and you guys from the labs can talk to it

8 better than I can -- that they -- that's the

9 requirement that they must meet to be able to certify

10 their products to a standard, I believe. And they have

11 like -- and the manufacturer's lab can't be 065,

12 because the first part of that is being completely

13 independent of the manufacturer, that there is no

14 influence there.

15 So if you're talking about a strict third

16 party, I think 17065 is a higher standard to hold to

17 that's applicable. I think most of the labs that are

18 already doing this are -- they have that level of

19 certification.

20 (Simultaneous discussion.)

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: It might be both. I don't

22 know. I mean, what we're trying to do is saying, what
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1 are the necessary accreditations for a competent test?

2 So running the test, reviewing the results, and saying

3 this is accurate through -- in accordance with the test

4 procedure, et cetera, et cetera.

5 MS. BARHYDT: And even beyond that

6 independent -- I mean, the manufacturers test in their

7 labs all the time for their certification. The idea is

8 that this is a check to make sure that what they do

9 every day is actually accurate. And so I'm having a

10 little bit of difficulty seeing how, if I test in my

11 lab all the time, how this is any different from that.

12 MR. BAUMAN: This is Jeff Bauman from

13 National. I think the difference there is, again, we

14 are talking about just the third party lab would

15 obviously have that. But the fact that the person is

16 doing that over at certain manufacturers' labs is --

17 has independence and then moves over to the 17065

18 guarantee, that the person either doing the third party

19 tests or overseeing the witness test and having

20 certified that lab as part of their 17065 or -- has

21 that extra higher level.

22 The 17065 definitely is -- to perform
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1 requirements for certifying products, processes, and

2 services, I would think that was very applicable to

3 what we're talking about here, and you would want that

4 level versus just that -- again, I think we are -- I

5 think -- and you guys can talk about it more is, you

6 know, how many other people do you want to get in the

7 game of -- going down the street and, you know, Mike's

8 third party lab company coming and saying, "I have

9 competency to run a test, so now I should be able to

10 certify somebody else's product." I don't think that's

11 the level we would want. But I --

12 MR. GORMAN: This is John Gorman again from

13 CSA. I tend to agree with that. I don't know if it's a

14 higher level, but agencies, third party agencies such

15 as mine, can go for either one of these

16 classifications. We can get a test lab with TL status

17 with 17025. Or in some of our programs we can go out

18 and 17065, QE status.

19 The Energy Star, for instance, a test lab I

20 don't think can submit directly for Energy Star. They

21 have to submit to a CB, and then the CB then carries it

22 forward. So --
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: We're not going for that. I

2 can tell you that.

3 MR. GORMAN: But that's not why I want to

4 carry it. This is --

5 MR. BAUMAN: I don't know if it's a

6 requirement.

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's not what we're going

8 for.

9 MR. BAUMAN: Not for listing purposes.

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: Not for the purposes of -- we

11 are talking about verification, what are the lab

12 requirements. And, you know, right now our third party

13 authorizations allow anyone to submit. I mean, that's

14 a different issue, who can submit the paperwork, but we

15 are going for -- this is a laboratory test. And it may

16 be that it should be -- I do think that 17025 is

17 important for the lab, but it may be that it should be

18 17025 and 17065. I don't know.

19 MR. TRITSIS: It should be both. This is

20 Bill Tritsis. It should be both, because 17065, as

21 John said, does provide -- if you are talking about

22 requirements like the verification program, you know,
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1 17065 avoids that subject completely.

2 MR. BAUMAN: Is 17025 part of 65? I think

3 there is --

4 MR. TRITSIS: No, they are different.

5 MR. BAUMAN: I thought they were referencing

6 the --

7 MR. TRITSIS: 17025 applies specific to the

8 laboratory configuration and verification. 17065 is

9 the conflict, avoiding the conflict of a laboratory

10 doing both the testing and the reporting and running

11 the programs themselves.

12 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. I move for lunch.

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Something for --

14 MR. EISNER: Does anybody object?

15 (No response.)

16 MR. STEPHENS: Second.

17 MR. EISNER: Okay. Why don't we get back at

18 about five to 2:00 or 2:00.

19 (Whereupon, a lunch recess was taken.)

20 MR. EISNER: Is that a new slide?

21 MS. BARHYDT: Oh, I don't think we were done

22 with this one yet.
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1 MALE SPEAKER: We didn't finish the other

2 one, but you can start a new one if you want to.

3 MR. EISNER: Who wants to start?

4 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers of PVI. I

5 definitely don't agree with "and." If there can be an

6 "or," I would be okay with that.

7 MR. THARP: But do we understand the

8 difference here? I think, you know, having a 17065,

9 you know, for the data that you are currently using, it

10 assures you, it provides you better assurance. It

11 doesn't take anything away from it.

12 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers at PVI. I

13 believe -- someone could disabuse me of this

14 understanding, but I believe one of the tenants of

15 17065 is that the testing laboratory cannot submit the

16 data directly; it has to go through a certified body.

17 And that's the part that I am most concerned about.

18 MR. THARP: Not true at all.

19 MR. AMRANE: Yeah, I was going to say, I read

20 a little bit during lunch, and what I read just -- and

21 by no means is this exhaustive, but what I read was

22 that 17065 is more about the paperwork and certifying
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1 the results and that kind of things that would

2 applicable more to a certification body. But it

3 doesn't require the use of a certification body.

4 In other words, it's more of it requires

5 impartialness; it requires that kind of stuff, which I

6 think the impartial part is really important here. I

7 don't think it should be in lieu of 17025 in terms of

8 testing competence. But if 17065 does require

9 certification, I agree with you; that's not the path

10 we're taking here. That's not on the table for

11 discussion, at least at this point.

12 MR. MYERS: It's my understanding that's the

13 case. In between these meetings, I'll go home and read

14 --

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: Anybody know?

16 MR. MYERS: -- 17065 in detail. And by the

17 way, is that a standard today? I thought Guide 65

18 today. Is 17065 already -- has that already been

19 approved?

20 MR. GORMAN: Excuse me, John Gorman again.

21 It's been approved, but my understanding is it's not

22 effective. It won't be effective in my agency until, I
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1 think, the middle of next year. That's my

2 understanding how CSA is treating the enforcement of

3 17065.

4 MR. AMRANE: This is an ISO document

5 approved, an approved ISO document. How the auditors,

6 your auditors at CSA, UL, Intertek, or HRI are

7 implementing the transition from ISO 65 to ISO 17065 is

8 up to, you know, what you can --

9 MR. EISNER: What are you saying? Is it

10 possible; would everybody agree to adopt 17065 as an

11 and if the provision was except for the requirement at

12 submission?

13 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers at PVI.

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: We're not doing that.

15 MR. MYERS: I would suggest strongly that the

16 folks don't pass it so you can read it.

17 MS. DANE: Right.

18 MR. MYERS: Read it before we pass it and

19 make sure that that's what we want.

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, there might be aspects

21 of 65 that we could just pick up, instead of doing it

22 all together. I don't think it replaces 17025. At
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1 least, I think we're more focused on the testing

2 competency rather than the paperwork at this point.

3 But there might be aspects of it that would add value

4 to this list. I don't know.

5 MR. MYERS: Sure.

6 MR. EISNER: Again, all --

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Absolutely.

8 MR. EISNER: Exclude all.

9 MR. MYERS: So I would be in agreement to

10 looking at the balance of this holding that particular

11 part at bay until we've had a chance to look at it and

12 see whether it should be adopted in whole or in part.

13 MR. EISNER: Is that something we could get

14 back to tomorrow, or is it going to take more time

15 then?

16 MR. MYERS: I don't know if there's enough

17 time.

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: I'll put it the next meeting,

19 the next group of meetings.

20 MR. EISNER: Anything else on this slide?

21 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah, do you want to --

22 MR. MYERS: Yeah, there --
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1 MS. BARHYDT: This is HBC.

2 MR. MYERS: Oh, we're back to HBC, okay.

3 MS. BARHYDT: Okay, so water heaters.

4 MR. EISNER: So everybody agrees with

5 accommodations HVAC?

6 MS. BARHYDT: Well, there are two points

7 there, yeah.

8 MR. EISNER: Except those points, okay.

9 MALE SPEAKER: Are we going to vote on this

10 or what?

11 MR. EISNER: Well, I don't think we can vote,

12 because there are too many variables right now.

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, I was going to say also

14 -- so Bill sent me AHRI's checklist for facilities.

15 And at some point, I want to get that on the slide for

16 some discussion. So give me a little bit.

17 So maybe we can talk about water heaters

18 while I figure out how to load it. And we'll go from

19 there.

20 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers. One other

21 point on the water heater verification slide: depending

22 on what comes out with 17065, 17025 does not require a
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1 witness test, per se, certainly not an annual witness

2 tests. It does require that you exhibit competence.

3 In our case, we did in fact run witness test, but that

4 was a one-time thing that they may do. In fact, we've

5 done it since then, but not every year. That may or

6 may not be required if we bring in elements of 17065

7 may be covered by that.

8 MR. EISNER: Any questions, other thoughts?

9 Is everybody --

10 MS. BARHYDT: I guess I'm still not clear on

11 what the fourth bullet point provides in terms of

12 additional verification, beyond what that same

13 manufacturer would be doing for certification testing.

14 To me, that looks like a manufacturer who's doing in15 house testing and has those accreditations and is doing

16 their own certification testing. There's no difference

17 when they do a verification test. I mean, we may have

18 controls on selection or something like that. But to

19 me, it looks like the testing is exactly the same.

20 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers at PVI. If I

21 could explain the difference. The principal difference

22 is that testing is under the auspices of the third
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1 party laboratory. They have verified our ability to

2 run the test, and they're able to come in at any time

3 if they choose to. They can question our data. They

4 review our ability to run that test. So it's not like

5 any other manufacturer would do if you're not in that

6 program.

7 MS. BARHYDT: No. I'm saying that if you do

8 your own testing for certification and you do your own

9 testing for verification, what's the difference?

10 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers, PVI again.

11 I might have a different group of people running the

12 test for the initial certification. I'm limited under

13 this program to people -- to the specific names have to

14 be included as to who has the experience to be able to

15 run the test to satisfy our third party's approval. So

16 this is a much tighter tolerance on our capabilities.

17 Only certain people can run this test that have been

18 approved by the third party. They're not just

19 approving; in our case, PVI, they're approving four

20 people at PVI to be able to run this test. And those

21 people, and there's a training program and that sort of

22 thing, where if they don't run a test within a certain
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1 period of time they have to be retrained. So it is a

2 much higher level form to have this accreditation.

3 MR. GORMAN: John Gorman again. I think for

4 our purposes at our agency at CSA, the safety

5 certification is really on a prototype model prior to

6 production. This energy verification program typically

7 -- I would think we at the agency would want to have

8 someone go in there and hand pick out at some point in

9 time that one in your production line we want you to

10 test that. So it's a difference between taking a

11 prototype model to a safety test and a production

12 model, if there is one in your case. Everything's kind

13 of unique. You don't have them like sitting around in

14 storage. But the idea that they would take just a

15 normal production type model out and run the energy

16 verification test. So we identify the serial number,

17 the date of production and all that stuff in that

18 program where the safety certification is really a

19 prototype based on what they've built up prior to going

20 into production.

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Would you physically go and

22 pick the one out from the manufacturer, or would you
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1 just tell them you want this model and let them do it?

2 MR. GORMAN: I guess some of that might be up

3 to what DOE and perhaps folks in this room want to have

4 done.

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: I get that. But I'm just

6 trying to understand; I mean, if that is --

7 MS. DANE: We need a letter, because we want

8 to see the testing data from these units. And then

9 they come and witness the testing.

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: So you would fall in the

11 bucket, too, because they would be there to witness the

12 test.

13 MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon. I have one

14 question about that. The one thing I do not see in

15 there that makes it different from the bullet above it

16 is the fact that the third party verifier doesn't seem

17 to be involved.

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, it's not on site.

19 MR. HON: You're using the third party

20 verifier as a witness to say the competence of the lab.

21 There's no third party of the materials. Am I reading

22 this correctly?
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1 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah.

2 MR. MYERS: Except on an annual basis, they

3 come in and do those things, including they can

4 request, and sometimes do an actual test to be able to

5 confirm that you're able to run the --

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Oh, you have (inaudible).

7 MR. MYERS: This program actually requires

8 the manufacturer to go so deep as to when you send your

9 equipment off for calibration, you have to request a

10 pre- calibration sheet to show what was the calibration

11 as received. And if the as-received calibration was

12 not within the tolerance of the instrument, then we

13 have a written procedure we have to follow to go back

14 and look at every test that that piece of equipment was

15 used on, and then determine does that change the test.

16 And if it changes the test, we have to go back to our

17 third party body, tell them what's happened, and work

18 out a plan mutually with them to address whatever's in

19 the field. So this is not just, "Oh, well, go run some

20 tests." This is a very comprehensive approval that the

21 laboratories provide. Because it's putting their good

22 name on this, so they want to make sure that it's a
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1 very tight and competent program.

2 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. And Frank, I'm

3 very impressed. What I'm not so sure of is to what

4 extent this deep quality assurance program you're doing

5 is kind of how you go to market, and how much we should

6 be requiring that same level of everybody. I'm

7 looking, I guess, what's the least we can do to make

8 sure we don't have systematic cheating?

9 MR. MYERS: Harvey, what this is is to

10 substitute for the person being there, the third party

11 person being there.

12 MR. SACHS: Okay.

13 MR. MYERS: So we're having to do more in

14 that regard.

15 MR. SACHS: Okay.

16 MR. MYERS: Because we don't have the actual

17 eyes on of a witness person employed by the company.

18 MR. SACHS: So that's why, and you're

19 comfortable with both.

20 MR. MYERS: Yes.

21 MR. SACHS: Thank you.

22 MR. TRISTSIS: This is Bill Tristsis with
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1 AHRI.

2 On the last point by Frank here, we think

3 this is the most significant flaw of this bullet here:

4 not having a person overseeing the test each and every

5 time. There are, in terms of stringency -- you know, I

6 can tell you what we do, which is way above more

7 stringent monetary penalties and such. But this is not

8 the point. The point here is that this fourth bullet

9 has the inherent flaw of not having anybody present.

10 MR. MYERS: Certainly it is -- this is Frank

11 Myers again. That is a different point. But one

12 reason that this is very important to manufacturers of

13 equipment that is built to order, even if we were a

14 high volume build, to order our type of equipment is so

15 expensive that if we have to build it and ship it to

16 somebody, or build it and wait for someone to come

17 down, our customers are not happy. And the only way we

18 can afford to build this equipment is to sell it. And

19 then we'll put in a day or two for the testing. The

20 only people that can be there on that short of notice

21 is us. Because we now have a part, you know, maybe air

22 shipping a part in from Europe. And the day it's done,
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1 then it goes into the lab for testing. We can't wait

2 for a third party to come in. So it's vital for us.

3 And we can't build that equipment, it's just simply too

4 expensive.

5 MR. AMRANE: Karim Amrane, AHRI.

6 MR. THARP: But we're talking about -- we're

7 excluding one one-offs right now, right. Can we limit

8 the conversation to more production volume stuff?

9 MR. AMRANE: I mean, Frank, for one, I think

10 that's going to be -- this is Karim Amrane with AHRI.

11 That's going to be addressed I guess separately. I

12 think we have that on the agenda. But as far as the

13 built to order, I mean, it's happening today with other

14 products, too. I mean, those who make those very large

15 HVAC products, this is the same thing. I mean, it's

16 built to order, too, but it's going through some

17 testing as well. So I think if it's a one-off issue, I

18 think that we'll address that eventually. But we're

19 only talking about the one-off right now.

20 MR. MYERS: Well, I'm actually talking about

21 built-to-order. Our company builds to order.

22 MR. AMRANE: Other people are in the same
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1 situation.

2 MR. MYERS: I don't think anybody is the

3 exact situation that we are. Because we have to

4 fabricate an incredibly expensive pressure vessel.

5 Other people can throw some iron together and put some

6 parts on and send it off. Our customers -- I don't

7 know about other people's customers, but our customers

8 need that equipment; they want it quicker than we can

9 deliver it. And to add in extra time would be a

10 tremendous financial burden for us. And we can't sell

11 the equipment somewhere else if we just --

12 MR. WOSTAL: This is Wes Wostal with

13 ClimateMaster. We have a similar situation in that we

14 are also a satellite program and we are approved by

15 17025 accredited lab. I'm just curious what exactly is

16 the difference between the commercial HVAC versus

17 commercial water heater that we would say for

18 commercial HVAC this is not allowed, but in water

19 heating, it is allowed. Because this would be something

20 that, you know, I would probably as a manufacturer use

21 AHRI, but this would just be an additional option that

22 could be used.
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1 MR. HON: I have a question of that.

2 Laboratories, the 17025 labs, would you allow your

3 17025 listing to carry over without your input into the

4 materials? Because you're accrediting our laboratories

5 and then we're using without seeing the data. Is that

6 acceptable to you?

7 MR. KOJAK: Yeah, I don't understand the

8 question.

9 MR. HON: Okay, if this were done, we could

10 test a product because we are a satellite lab. You

11 would not know that product was tested; you have no

12 input to that test information; you would not see that

13 test information likewise. You wouldn't have charges

14 for that service. Is that the way you're running your

15 system? Or do you want to verify your system so that

16 you have third party review of data?

17 MR. KOJAK: I'm not sure how our company

18 would want to handle this. I mean, this is something

19 new, so I mean, I can't tell you right now exactly how

20 it'd be structured.

21 MR. HON: That's why I'm asking that, because

22 --
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1 MR. KOJAK: I would assume that our company

2 would want to look at the data and verify everything is

3 correct. Because just because you did it, we'd

4 probably still want to verify it's done right.

5 MR. HON: Well, for us, that's not a problem,

6 because we don't have to have every unit witness

7 tested. They could come down on some units, others they

8 review the data separately (inaudible). But this one

9 looks like there's a difference in the system.

10 MR. KOJAK: Well, it's, you know, they keep

11 talking about the satellite.

12 MR. HON: We're creating a possible system,

13 but we're not having anyone say they're willing to do

14 this system.

15 MR. KOJAK: Well, with the program we have is

16 the client test data program. The data from these labs

17 that we have accredited to be able to do those tests,

18 the data is submitted to us. Instead of us being there

19 watching them collect the data, the data is still

20 submitted to us to review before we do anything with

21 it. So it's the difference is just --

22 MS. BARHYDT: (Inaudible) test?
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1 MR. KOJAK: Yeah. Instead of just us being

2 there watching you guys collect the data, you're

3 collecting the data, but we still see the data either

4 way. It's just the difference is either we're there

5 witnessing it, that's a witness test data program, or

6 the client test data program, which you keep saying is

7 the satellite. And we trust you're able to collect the

8 data properly, because of all these other requirements

9 we give on you in the audit. But we still see the

10 data.

11 MR. HON: Right. But that's not what this

12 program is.

13 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers, PVI. Then

14 we need to add that into this program. Because I've

15 always expected when we're a client that has approval,

16 that's what I was saying, have been saying for quite a

17 while. We can't get 17025 directly, we get it through

18 the laboratory. The same thing for the data, we're not

19 submitting data to DOE, we would be submitting data to

20 our third party 17025 lab. And that report that they

21 create, now, we may put it in the mail and send it

22 straight to --
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1 MR. HON: But that's not what we asked

2 earlier. Because earlier, we said they would not see

3 it. And that was part of the explanation I was asking

4 about.

5 MR. MYERS: The same product.

6 MR. HON: Not the product. There's two

7 different programs you can get where they don't see the

8 product. But what was spelled out originally on the

9 slide was that because they were able to obtain 17025

10 status as a satellite facility, therefore they could

11 send in data to DOE directly by themselves.

12 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers again. That

13 wasn't my intent when I proposed this. This would be

14 completely the responsibility of the 17025 lab. But

15 we'd be able to do this client data or satellite

16 depending on what each call it.

17 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. So

18 with this process we could only use something, use a

19 certified lab that has this product within the scope of

20 their certification, combined appliances. There's no -

21 -

22 MS. BARHYDT: I was wondering about that.
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1 MR. STEPHENS: -- agency that has anything

2 for combined appliances in their skill test.

3 MR. STANONIK: There's no official test

4 procedure.

5 MR. STEPHENS: Yes. You can get a waiver for

6 the test procedure.

7 MR. STANONIK: No, you can't; not for

8 combined appliances.

9 MR. STEPHENS: New product category, right.

10 MR. STANONIK: No.

11 MR. STEPHENS: We're requiring ourselves.

12 MR. STANONIK: No, you need to write -- if

13 the industry -- Frank's (inaudible). If it needs a

14 test procedure, then you need to write a test

15 procedure.

16 MR. EISNER: Mike on the phone, go ahead.

17 MR. STEM: Yeah, I was going to go ahead and

18 try to answer Charlie's question. It cut in and out,

19 so I'm not sure if I got all of it. But basically, you

20 were asking about the requirement of what we would

21 require for the types of testing, whether they be

22 witnessed or non- witnessed. And basically, to the
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1 effect what we discussed last week on the different

2 levels, I think each of the independent labs have a

3 similar program where we have different levels that are

4 obtained through a confidence building period.

5 Obviously, the least intensive program would

6 be we show up with our instrumentation that's

7 calibrated, it's in our scope of accreditations, and

8 perform the testing ourselves on your equipment at your

9 facility. Commonly used for compliance and conformity

10 assessment type testing. Second level would be a

11 witness testing with your equipment, which is what Joe

12 and I spoke about last week, which is probably more in

13 line with what we're talking about here. Because we

14 don't need to bring in no transducers and (inaudible),

15 you have that. As long as it's calibrated, that's

16 acceptable.

17 Level three would be more in line with a non18 supervised test. So you obtain that after-confidence

19 building and some proficiency testing through

20 correlation where we show adequate results between the

21 two labs. And then the final step would be

22 unsupervised testing with your data being reviewed by
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1 your internal reviewers that we have qualified. And

2 then we have a final sign off from our qualified

3 reviewer. But it's less data that we would actually go

4 through.

5 So we're talking about that third level, I

6 think that's kind of where last week we talked about

7 drawing the line. We would need full test data

8 packages that had all of the supplementary data, the

9 photographs of the setup, calibration information,

10 everything included on that, a full compliance report,

11 basically. So that would be the only way that we would

12 be able to accept data, is if we could have enough

13 submitted to us to ensure that it was ran properly, the

14 procedures were followed from setup procedure to

15 testing timelines and all the tolerances were

16 maintained.

17 So is that pretty much the gist of your

18 question, Charlie?

19 MR. HON: That is exactly what I was asking.

20 But there was also the caveat of would the third party

21 accept without seeing, would they allow their

22 information, as far as certification of a lab, to be
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1 carried over in the review product information?

2 MR. STEM: And keep in mind that these

3 satellite programs were developed mainly with

4 conformity assessment in mind. So the testing for

5 that, you know, you're looking at the safety type

6 testing for the electrical inputs and lock rotors and

7 things like that. So there's a little less to it. A

8 whole lot less instrumentation, bigger tolerances. So

9 you have five degree windows that you can maintain

10 temperatures in, instead of tents.

11 So, you know, that's not what -- when we talk

12 about the current structure of satellite, that's what

13 it was developed around. If we needed to develop --

14 and I don't want to speak for anybody else, you know,

15 ARHI or anybody about -- but I think, you know, we have

16 that opportunity to develop the procedures that fit,

17 fit. Right, I mean, we've worked well together in the

18 past to customize those types of programs.

19 MR. BAUMAN: This is Jeff Bauman from

20 National. Mike, can you just clarify? The way I was

21 understanding, even under all I'll say (inaudible) the

22 lab or the third party would still review, at least at
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1 minimum review the data. That goes back to Charlie's

2 question. You wouldn't submit it without ever having

3 to look at it. Even under your fourth scenario, I

4 believe you said that you still get the data and review

5 it for approval before it would go to anybody.

6 MR. STEM: Yeah, absolutely. I don't see any

7 way around that.

8 MR. BAUMAN: I agree.

9 MR. STEM: I expect everyone to take the

10 responsibility. For the integrity of that data, we

11 would definitely want somebody in our organization to

12 sign off on that report and have that level of

13 responsibility.

14 MR. BAUMAN: So you're almost saying --

15 MR. STEM: And also -- go ahead.

16 MR. BAUMAN: You're almost saying without

17 saying, as we talked about before, I think pretty much

18 under -- the fellows here from UL and CSA can talk to

19 it. I mean, the satellite programs, you wouldn't --

20 like as I mentioned earlier, you wouldn't have a

21 satellite program that doesn't have you review the data

22 before it goes in. So whether we call that, whether
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1 that's implicit in the fact you're in the satellite

2 program, or when they call that out specifically in

3 this area where the data would be reviewed by the third

4 party before submittal.

5 MS. BARHYDT: So I'm still very --

6 MR. STEM: Yeah.

7 MS. BARHYDT: What was that, Mike?

8 MR. STEM: Oh, I was just agreeing. And I

9 think somebody else had one other question with regards

10 to umbrellaing standards into the accreditation scope.

11 So the way it works currently is the specific third

12 party scope has to encompass those standards. We can't

13 -- we wouldn't be able to umbrella a lab into, you

14 know, I couldn't go out and witness a test, or have

15 somebody submit data to me if I wasn't competent in

16 that specific test standard.

17 MS. BARHYDT: So I'm still extremely

18 uncomfortable with that bullet point. But we also had

19 some discussion about 17065, and maybe some of that

20 pulling in some independence. And that might make me

21 feel a little bit better about it. So I suggest that

22 we leave it there for now. I'm not going to vote right
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1 now. And give us a chance to look at it and see if we

2 can come up something that would make us a little more

3 comfortable with it. But right now, I'm still just not

4 comfortable.

5 MR. KLEISS: Jeff Kleiss. Related to that

6 bullet point with the satellite program, a question to

7 other manufacturers. Is that needed only for one-offs

8 and built-to-order?

9 MS. BARHYDT: Actually, before you answer

10 that. What's the difference between one-off and built11 to-order? Just to make sure we're all talking about the

12 same thing.

13 MR. KLEISS: I break those two out, just

14 because it seems like we -- with the exclusion of a

15 one-off that Frank has been referring to as built-to16 order, so maybe that definition needs to be made clear

17 too.

18 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers. I don't

19 disagree with you at all. If we're going to use that

20 as a part of our discussion, we don't need to talk

21 about this, or that'll be done later. For our company,

22 there's not a lot of difference between one-off and
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1 built-to- order. Every product that we get an order

2 for is a unique product. To try and call it a one-off

3 is -- okay, well, it's a one-off, unless we get an

4 order for another one. How complex that product is, it

5 would be almost impossible to say this complex built6 to-order is what you would call a one-off. Because for

7 us, it's all like that. So I don't find a lot of

8 difference between the two. But as I've heard it used

9 around the table, I'm pretty sure some people think

10 there's a lot of difference between built-to-order and

11 one-off.

12 MR. WHITWELL: So this is Bob Whitwell from

13 Carrier. Maybe I could throw something out as a

14 possible difference. We have, I would say, three

15 different types of products. We have built-to-stock,

16 we have built-to- order, we have engineered-to-order.

17 So a built-to-order product would be one that a

18 customer could go into our selling tools and they could

19 configure that product. We might build one a year; we

20 might not build any a year. We might build three or

21 four; it depends on what the orders, how the orders

22 come in. So that would be a built-to-order, and it's
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1 built only when we get an order for that product from

2 the customer.

3 Then the third type, engineered-to-order, is

4 something that's not in our selling tools. It's

5 something where a customer asks for something

6 different. It could be just taking an option that's

7 available on a different model line and putting into a

8 different product. Or it could be coming up with

9 something that's completely different that we have to

10 do a significant amount of engineering work to develop.

11 So that's the way we would look at it.

12 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. This is Jill from Trane.

13 I would totally agree on the engineer to order. It is

14 then quoted to them engineering time, design time. The

15 customer pays for all of that. Yeah, appropriate

16 testing if it has to. And I would agree with Bob, it

17 could be as simple as putting special lights inside of

18 a unit. But also could be as special as --

19 MR. WHITWELL: And they have unique model

20 numbers that don't match our normal model numbering

21 systems. But we do track -- we keep track of what the

22 building material is for that particular product by
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1 customer. But it's very different than a built-to2 order.

3 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah, the built-to-order has

4 the common selling tools, the common catalogs, the

5 common information that is public and out. And you're

6 right; there's millions of combinations in there, so

7 some of them don't get settled every year, you know,

8 all the time, and some do a lot.

9 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah.

10 MS. HOOTMAN: It just depends on the

11 combinations.

12 MR. WHITWELL: A lot of them don't get sold.

13 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. A whole heck of a lot of

14 them don't get sold.

15 MR. FLY: Mark Fly with AAON. And I would

16 agree with my colleagues here that, you know, I think

17 the engineer to order is much clearer definition of a

18 one-off than what we've been throwing around. And the

19 built-to- order is pre-engineered. We have gone

20 through product development, we have gone through

21 prototype testing. We may not have put this widget

22 with that widget in the same box. But we have gone to
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1 the point where we know that we can put this widget and

2 that widget in one box. And if they don't affect each

3 other through some testing, then it hasn't been tested.

4 But it may be completely unrelated, so it doesn't need

5 to be. So the one-off definition, I think that would

6 be a much better definition to put in the document.

7 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers. I know for

8 our company that lines is nowhere near as tightly

9 defined as what you folks have mentioned. We have

10 products that are in our catalog that we have to

11 complete. You may be able to order it, you contact our

12 facility and say, "I want catalog number so and so,"

13 and they'll contact engineering and say, "Engineering,

14 we've got a customer asking for so and so." And then

15 we'll do the necessary engineering to say, "Yes, you

16 can actually sell that catalog product." So we have

17 other products who are in the catalogs, and if you just

18 want to move a fitting from one location to another, it

19 doesn't affect anything on performance. That goes

20 through our custom engineering crews and there's no

21 need for it to be considered anymore a one-off than

22 anything else.
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1 So the line is very blurred for us. The big

2 thing is whether it's a one-off for us, whether it's a

3 one-off or a built-to-order product, putting one of

4 those things out for testing at a different point than

5 another, we still -- they come through, we have delays

6 on them; we don't necessarily have all the parts in.

7 You order just for that unit, and then if something

8 happens, you're delayed, so you can't preschedule

9 testing. You can't schedule testing until you're done

10 with the unit. And usually, you've got to ship that

11 unit because of a customer demand closing in the

12 building with cranes kind of thing. So we have this

13 little tiny window that we can expand that last little

14 bit out after we've got it built, whether it's built15 to-order or engineer to order; that tiny window is

16 exactly the same. And that's the part where we can't

17 fit in having a third party lab physically come down

18 and do it. We need this to be able to test those

19 units.

20 MS. HOOTMAN: And I would agree with you on

21 the manufacturing part of it. On both built-to-order

22 and engineered-to-order, most material is not bought
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1 until that order is placed. So there aren't

2 compressors sitting around, and there's none of that

3 components. All those components are ordered once that

4 unit is put into the sales system. So you're right;

5 the components aren't sitting around. But guess what;

6 for AHRI, I build up a unit, send it to them, test it,

7 and scrap it. And, yes, it is in the six figures.

8 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers with PVI. I

9 know from a small manufacturer's point of view, those

10 costs would be a ticket to not being in production.

11 MS. HOOTMAN: It's not easy being a big

12 manufacturer.

13 MR. BALLO: This is Tim Ballo. Rather than

14 leaving it up to the manufacturer of individual

15 definition of what's built-to-order, I think we need

16 some objective criteria. So what I was thinking was if

17 you didn't build it in the last year, it's built-to18 order. You get -- at the beginning of the year, you get

19 your list of products you need to certify. And if you

20 don't build it in that year, it's a built-to-order

21 product; the next time you build it, you test it. I

22 mean, does that --
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1 MS. BARHYDT: I think I would have defined it

2 as if it's in your catalog, it's built-to-order, and if

3 it's not in your catalog and they have to make

4 something up from scratch, it's engineered-to-order.

5 MR. JOHNSON: I would agree with that.

6 MR. KLEISS: This is Jeff with Lochinvar.

7 And maybe I'm overreaching, but I think that most of

8 the people at the table are comfortable with built-to9 order and engineered-to-order as being fairly good,

10 descriptive terms. If that's so, I'd like to suggest

11 that we -- on the other side that we were working on,

12 that we add the exclusion for built-to-order and

13 engineered-to-order. Remove the bullet with the

14 satellite and see if that passes muster.

15 MS. BARHYDT: And then come and revisit

16 built- to-order and engineered-to-order?

17 MR. KLEISS: Yes.

18 MS. BARHYDT: Well --

19 MR. KLEISS: And I would suggest that's

20 probably true for both the whole HVAC group, as well as

21 (inaudible).

22 MS. MEYERS: This Karen Myers with Rheem.
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1 And there's also built-to-stock. And you kind of have

2 to treat built-to-stock a little bit differently than

3 built- to-order as well. Because that's often very

4 unique components, quantities of one a year, et cetera.

5 So I think, you know, built-to-stock easy to do.

6 Built-to- order is a little bit different, engineered7 to-order is even more different.

8 MS. BARHYDT: Okay, so just make sure we're

9 all on the same page. What we're talking about on the

10 slides that we've done are built-to-stock, which is --

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Or in stock.

12 MS. BARHYDT: Or in stock.

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah.

14 MS. BARHYDT: And we're going to table built15 to- order and engineered-to-order and talk about those

16 separately. Does that work?

17 MR. AMRANE: What Jeff was suggesting in the

18 room here.

19 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. Yeah.

20 MR. MYERS: If you're going to remove that

21 from this one, I'd sure like to get it somewhere where

22 I can get a copy of what we've worked on thus far.
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Just do a red line. Just do

2 it right there, that way it's saved.

3 MS. BARHYDT: No. But we're not using one4 off anymore.

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: So where it says testing the

6 manufacturer (inaudible) right there?

7 MS. BARHYDT: Strike through that whole

8 bullet.

9 MR. MYERS: Yeah, if we could strike it out

10 or something rather than delete it.

11 MS. BARHYDT: And then go to the commercial

12 HVAC slide. And change that to instead of excluding

13 one-offs, excluding built-to-order and engineered-to14 order.

15 MR. WHITWELL: I would suggest, and I'd like

16 others to speak up, but in this case, I think this is

17 excluding engineered-to-order, but includes built-to18 order.

19 MS. BARHYDT: It includes built-to-order.

20 MALE SPEAKER: That's what we're doing today.

21 MR. WHITWELL: That's what we do today,

22 right.
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1 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

2 MR. WHITWELL: And exclude built-to-order,

3 but it's not going to change.

4 MALE SPEAKER: It would reduce the range of

5 products.

6 MS. HOOTMAN: Significantly.

7 MS. MEYERS: Well, this is Karen with Rheem.

8 I don't know that I completely agree with that.

9 MS. HOOTMAN: (Inaudible) tell you

10 personally, Karen, all my products 3 through 62 are

11 built to order.

12 MS. MEYERS: Yeah, I'm not sure we should be

13 excluding (inaudible) for anything, period.

14 MR. FLY: I could go home and --

15 MS. BARHYDT: Well, if we're going to revisit

16 it.

17 MS. MEYERS: I don't want to exclude it.

18 MS. BARHYDT: It's not that we're not going

19 to --

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: I could see engineered-to21 order.

22 MS. MEYERS: I'm not trying to exclude it.
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1 I'm just saying they might need different verification

2 procedures.

3 COURT REPORTER: One at a time, please.

4 MS. MEYERS: Maybe it's not a big deal in

5 HVAC. It's going to be a bigger deal when we get to

6 boilers. So I could probably live with it on commercial

7 HVAC.

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't think fundamentally

9 the lab requirements are different. I guess that's the

10 point we're talking about here, right.

11 MR. BAUMAN: Right.

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: I could see where the

13 selection process is different, the lead times might be

14 different. You know, timing stuff is different, that

15 kind of thing. But fundamentally, the types of labs and

16 the requirements of those labs, that's really what

17 we're talking about. And it's not different here. And

18 I don't think for built-to-order it is.

19 MS. MEYERS: Not on commercial HVAC.

20 MR. BAUMAN: The question is whether a lab is

21 testing an engineering order --

22 MS. MEYERS: Large boilers, I might disagree.
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1 MR. BAUMAN: -- differently. That's one

2 thing. Stepping back, again, what are we talking about

3 here, are we talking about whatever, whether you select

4 one a year or ten percent of your whatever?

5 MS. MEYERS: Yeah.

6 MR. BAUMAN: Okay, how did the test get

7 performed? That's the discussion we're having here.

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Absolutely.

9 MR. BAUMAN: And is there a difference in how

10 a test would be conducted for an engineered-to-order

11 product versus a built-to-order? I don't know that

12 there's any difference of what the lab would have to

13 be.

14 MS. MEYERS: I think there would be a

15 difference in selection.

16 MR. BAUMAN: Yeah.

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah.

18 MS. MEYERS: Not necessarily the test.

19 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, Karen, my comment was

20 only related to the products on the top of this page.

21 MS. MEYERS: Yeah. I think I was kind of

22 jumping ahead. I think I agree with you for commercial
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1 HVAC.

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think in the no exclusion

3 order, and I think it should be the same for water

4 heaters. I think it should be engineered-to-order only

5 for the lab requirements. And I do think there's going

6 to be a lot of things about engineered-to-order,

7 whether -- just generally that are special.

8 MS. MEYERS: Yeah, and I'm okay on the water

9 heater side. The boilers, though, when we get to that,

10 are you going to make a separate slide for those large

11 boilers to kind of address how we kicked off this

12 meeting?

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: I'm really sure how we

14 reconcile those issues without having a separate

15 meeting with them here. So I'm not sure we want to

16 embark on that today.

17 MS. MEYERS: Well, let me know when you have

18 that meeting, because I'd like to have some of my

19 boiler folks.

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, absolutely.

21 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers. As a

22 manufacturer of both boilers and water heaters, I don't
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1 see a difference. I don't understand why there's a

2 difference between those two. There's high volume

3 built- to-stock in boilers, just like there is in water

4 heaters. And there's slightly larger commercial

5 equipment that's built-to-stock, you know, build them

6 by the thousands. And then there's both engineer to

7 order and built-to- order where you're in the onesy,

8 twosy of any one given thing.

9 And where the timeline -- it doesn't matter

10 if later we say you have to check one a year or a fifty

11 a year, the timeline is the issue of being able to sell

12 a product. You just simply, as a small manufacturer,

13 you can't afford to build these products and then throw

14 them away. And that's what we would have to do, unless

15 we can fit in the testing within a few days of our

16 normal structure; the customer simply won't buy it by

17 taking a product, one of their products they bought and

18 paid for, and having somebody else come in whenever

19 they can get in and then you run the test and then you

20 can ship it. We have to be able to move quickly. And

21 that's the reason that I've been --

22 MS. MEYERS: But it's not certification,
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1 Frank, it's verification.

2 MR. MYERS: Exactly. Verification, that's

3 exact -- I have not been talking about certification.

4 Every word I've uttered about this has been about

5 verification. You have a unit you need to get a

6 verification on. Whatever the quantities are that we'll

7 talk about later, you must verify that unit. When I

8 sell one of those units, I'm able to verify it. I

9 can't build one just for verification, because it can't

10 go in the stock. It's engineered-to-order or built-to11 order.

12 MR. THARP: Frank, you know, I think we

13 mentioned that we're doing this large scale and we

14 never had a problem. Okay, for equipment much bigger

15 than what you can produce. So from our perspective it

16 can be done.

17 MR. MYERS: And from a manufacturer who

18 participates in every way that a non-certification

19 program AHRI, who would like to be in that program, I

20 have not been able to find a way for a company like

21 ours to participate.

22 MR. THARP: Well, that's the difference
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1 between what you participate in and what AHRI provides

2 to a different level.

3 MR. KLEISS: Jeff Kleiss, Lochivar. As I'm

4 thinking through this, I'm considering, even though we

5 haven't covered boilers yet, I'm thinking about the

6 boilers and the words that we heard from Cleaver7 Brooks, from ABMA. And I've seen the facilities

8 similar to Cleaver-Brooks, and I know the challenges

9 that they're dealing with as far as moving through very

10 large product. It sits there and everything else halts;

11 you cannot move something else through. And there is

12 no third party lab they're going to be able to ship

13 that to to test, because they can't handle the capacity

14 for it. And exceptions or different allowances for

15 them, if it passes muster for one part of the industry,

16 then it should pass muster for another part of the

17 industry.

18 Also we're not trying to create DOE

19 absolutely equal to the AHRI program. We need to come

20 up with a method that is adequately reliable for DOE,

21 but the idea that, "Oh, we do this for AHRI already,

22 therefore this is how the DOE program needs to go," I
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1 don't think it's necessarily -- we shouldn't set that

2 paradigm. We did already create a hierarchy of what we

3 felt like, as far as the reliability of the data that

4 we would get out of three different options. There's

5 definitely some lack of certitude with this satellite

6 program that it's not a favored preferred method. But

7 for these built-to-order, engineered-to-order products,

8 it seems to me that that is a reasonable balance, and

9 it's a reasonable balance for any of the industry.

10 So I just threw a bunch of stuff out there,

11 but you all can throw darts at it now. End of rant.

12 MS. BARHYDT: So I'm going to suggest that we

13 -- I mean, we have a lot of ideas here for water

14 heaters. We've talked about HVAC. I think we have a

15 pretty good agreement on HVAC. Why don't we start

16 talking about another product, and I think we're going

17 to end up revisiting everything in order to take a

18 vote? So let's see what we can get for several

19 products.

20 Yes.

21 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. I'm

22 still concerned. We need at least one option for
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1 things that are not 17025. Because if it's not in the

2 scope, third party labs can't cover it. We have

3 products that AHRI doesn't recognize. I know other

4 manufacturers have products that AHRI doesn't

5 recognize. It's going to happen eventually.

6 MS. HOOTMAN: Are they covered products?

7 MR. STEPHENS: Yes, they're covered by the

8 DOE.

9 MS. BARHYDT: Are you sure?

10 MR. STEPHENS: Yes.

11 MS. HOOTMAN: I think I've a conversation

12 with you on a couple.

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't want to talk about

14 that.

15 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik. That's right.

16 MR. STEPHENS: See that's the issue.

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: You don't to talk about that

18 one either.

19 MR. STANONIK: There are not any DOE-covered

20 products we do not recognize within the scope of

21 products (inaudible).

22 MR. STEPHENS: Okay. So there's a discussion
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1 about the word "recognize."

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: All right. I mean, if you're

3 talking about combination products, it gets sticky.

4 There are some products that may meet the definitions

5 of DOE-regulated products, but we may not have existing

6 test procedures or standards for them.

7 I'm not talking about those products here,

8 because we don't have existing test procedures or

9 standards for them. But they are covered, and DOE does

10 have the authority in the event it wanted to pick them

11 up sometime in the future. There are other products

12 that don't meet our definitions at all, and they're

13 just not regulated. So I don't know without --

14 MS. BARHYDT: None of this would apply to

15 something that doesn't have testing and standards.

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right.

17 MR. EISNER: And are those the products

18 you're talking about?

19 MR. STEPHENS: I have one product that's

20 beginning on BUS, it's a heating product or it's a

21 water heating product.

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. And you had a lot of
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1 those questions.

2 MR. SACHS: We're doing our best to bring

3 more.

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, I'm aware. And I

5 appreciate the innovation, I think it's great. But our

6 statute --

7 MR. SACHS: Not my problem.

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: My lawyers give me some

9 (inaudible).

10 MS. BARHYDT: That's a different part.

11 MR. STEPHENS: So we make --

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's difficult. And without

13 knowing the attributes, I'm not going to say

14 definitively how your product is characterized under

15 DOE regards. The realization is a product that

16 performs multiple functions of two different covered

17 products are just that, two different covered products.

18 A water heater and heating appliance. And in some

19 cases, you may need to test as a water heater and a

20 heating appliance. That's right now the way our regs -

21 - I mean, if something is a refrigerator and a

22 microwave, it must be tested as a refrigerator and a
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1 microwave. And certified as such, et cetera, etc

2 etera.

3 MR. SACHS: I'm glad you're going to regulate

4 (inaudible).

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: We have had all these

6 examples. I wanted to make light of it.

7 And it's complicated, so I can't answer for

8 your product specifically. But for some of the ones

9 that we've gotten about whether I make a product

10 that's, you know, it's really no different than when

11 Jill talks about her package systems that have a

12 furnace in it. Well, that's an air conditioner and a

13 furnace.

14 MS. HOOTMAN: Yep.

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: And they have to be tested

16 and certified to separate things. I mean, the ones

17 that combine two different appliances -- so it's not

18 that simple. But if it's subject to our, you know, if

19 Mary wants to make a commercial refrigerator that on

20 the back side is also --

21 MS. MEYERS: An icemaker.

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: An icemaker, exactly. She
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1 has a commercial refrigerator and an automatic

2 commercial icemaker.

3 MS. MEYERS: And on our package units, we

4 have two different energy guide labels. Because it's a

5 heating appliance and it's an air conditioning

6 appliance.

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, I don't know if that

8 helps alleviate your concerns or causes more concerns,

9 but --

10 MR. STEPHENS: Two specific instances. When

11 tankless water heaters came into the US market, there

12 wasn't a standard for it. When the Combi boilers came

13 into the boiler market --

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Are we talking "standard"

15 meaning "test procedure," or are we talking "standard"

16 meaning you want to be regulated with a number?

17 MR. STEPHENS: Both.

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Typically, no one comes to us

19 and says, "We want to be regulated with a number."

20 MR. STEPHENS: I want them to be regulated

21 with a number.

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. Fair enough.
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1 MR. STEPHENS: Right. But the Combi boiler

2 situation, it's the same thing.

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: I understand. There are some

4 issues.

5 MR. STEPHENS: So if we do this with the

6 17025 requirement, we're corning ourselves. We need

7 the ability to innovate and to do things --

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't think this is

9 preventing you necessarily from innovating. That being

10 said, you know, most of what you're talking about is

11 testing issues, period. Whether it be a procedural

12 issue -- I mean, most of them are test procedure

13 issues, which is a whole --

14 MS. BARHYDT: So I have a question about the

15 17025. And my understanding is that within the scope,

16 it's not like it's going to say the scope is DOE test

17 procedure A, B, C. It's going to say that you can test

18 a commercial air conditioner, or something like that,

19 no?

20 MR. KOJAK: No, it's called an actual

21 (inaudible).

22 MS. BARHYDT: The DOE reg?
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1 MR. KOJAK: Um-hmm.

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.

3 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So if a manufacturer has

4 a test procedure waiver, will a 17025 be able to use

5 that test procedure waiver, or do we have an issue

6 there? Because as far as DOE's concerned, that product

7 should be tested under the conditions of the waiver.

8 Because that's what the test procedure that applies to

9 that product is once we've issued that decision in an

10 order.

11 MR. AMRANE: Karim with AHRI. 17025 has

12 nothing to do with the test procedure. I mean, it's

13 just the process by which you go about to make sure --

14 MS. BARHYDT: But so what we're saying is

15 within the scope.

16 Does the scope encompass whether it's the DOE

17 test procedure, or whether it's a DOE test procedure as

18 modified by a waiver, or does that not matter?

19 MR. AMRANE: 17025 doesn't care about that.

20 MS. BARHYDT: Okay, I just wanted to check.

21 MR. STEPHENS: But we said in this document

22 previously that it had to be identified in the scope.
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: The DOE test procedure.

2 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers with PVI.

3 And I know in our 17025 --

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's the DOE test procedure;

5 right?

6 MR. MYERS: -- satellite approval, we have

7 listed in our 17025 documentation. We are only

8 authorized to serve as a satellite facility, whatever

9 17025 laboratory for those test procedures. That's all

10 we're authorized to serve as their eyes for.

11 MR. EISNER: So the procedure is --

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: So the procedure --

13 MR. MYERS: So it is in fact in --

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- it should be for the DOE

15 test procedure, and for any waivers that a lab may want

16 to be running.

17 MR. GORMAN: This is John Gorman, CSA. The

18 way it works is the 17025 is like a compliance

19 guideline document, if you will. When I as an agency

20 apply to have my program recognized by the overseeing

21 bodies that do this for a living, I say I want to be

22 recognized to DOE procedure X, Y, Z, if you will, or
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1 CFR 430 part whatever, if you will. Or whatever the

2 standard happens to be. And then I'll get a certificate

3 from that agency that says, "CSA is good to go," 17025

4 for these documents. So the scope is really -- the

5 scope that you have, that's your accrediting body for

6 what you're being capable of doing. So it's not 17025

7 by itself. That just sort of rules that an agency uses

8 to get accreditation for a particular scope.

9 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik with AHRI.

10 It's really more the scope of the lab.

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, exactly.

12 MR. STANONIK: I mean, theoretically, you go

13 to a 17025 lab that samples blood; right. I mean --

14 MR. GORMAN: Sure. Well, yeah, I mean,

15 exactly. Yeah.

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I mean, it should be like

17 when I go out to do testing, I make sure a given test

18 procedure is in that lab's scope. I say, "What is your

19 scope?" And I said, you know, I make sure it should be

20 within the scope to be the DOE test procedure and/or

21 any waivers that they may need to run. Period.

22 MR. GORMAN: Correct. And you can verify
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1 that by looking online at the accrediting bodies.

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Absolutely.

3 MR. GORMAN: And you'll see the certificate

4 there. You'll see exactly what an agency or a

5 laboratory has been accredited to do, it's scope.

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: So when we issue a waiver,

7 it's an alternative method of test. So we'll say you

8 don't have to run what's in the CEFR. You're allowed

9 to run this alternative method of test.

10 MR. KOJAK: So can the DOE give all the

11 different alternative waivers to the third party test

12 labs that can be (inaudible)?

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: They're online

14 MS. BARHYDT: They're online.

15 MR. KOJAK: Okay.

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: There's a long list of them.

17 MR. KOJAK: Okay.

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: And it's increasing by the

19 day.

20 MALE SPEAKER: So (inaudible) not company21 specific.

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: They are. They're company-
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1 specific and basic model-specific. So you have to

2 know; the manufacturer should be, yeah, telling you.

3 MR. STEPHENS: So what happens when we

4 develop standard X that address a combination heating

5 and cooling appliance that there is no existing

6 standard for? How do we achieve 17025 on that? Is it

7 simply because you have experience in the heating field

8 doing those tests and cooling and those tests?

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's why I asked you,

10 right. I mean, how do you experience --

11 MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel with Mitsubishi. I

12 mean, 17025 doesn't apply to specific product group.

13 It applies to the lab and to how the lab is

14 functioning. 17025 doesn't -- it's not product-specific

15 at all. It just deals with how you operate your lab,

16 how you do calibration, how you train your personnel

17 and those kinds of things, that's all it does. To get

18 a waiver, I've been through several waivers with DOE

19 for our VRF products, and in actuality, the first one,

20 we didn't have an alternative test procedure. That

21 came maybe on the second one. But we had an

22 alternative test procedure that we had to follow. But
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1 we did our own testing and then we kept a list of the

2 results that we had from that testing.

3 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, AHRI. You've

4 lost your way again. Every issue that Phillip is

5 raising has to be resolved before he can certify the

6 product.

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: I agree.

8 MR. STANONIK: So we're talking about

9 verification. So every issue, by the time we get to

10 verification, it would've been resolved; otherwise, he

11 doesn't have a certified product. And I hate to be

12 that blunt, but you're wasting your time on this issue

13 right now.

14 MR. KOJAK: If you test the product with a

15 waiver for certification, and then that product needs

16 to be verified, the third party test lab that's going

17 to, in order to verify it, has to have that waiver in

18 their scope as well.

19 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, ARHI. The

20 manufacturer got the waiver because he needed the

21 waiver. And when you're going to test it for

22 verification he doesn't tell you and give you the
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1 waiver. It's like he or she's not paying attention.

2 MR. KOJAK: But that has to be added into the

3 scope of the ISO (inaudible) lab.

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Hang on. Hang on, hang on,

5 hang on.

6 MR. STANONIK: It's inherent.

7 MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel, Mitsubishi.

8 Generally --

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: I may not agree with that,

10 Frank. So I would agree; so there's simple waivers,

11 right. Just give me one second. There's simple

12 waivers that say, you know, test that X temperature

13 instead of Y. The method's identical, except instead of

14 five, you're testing at ten.

15 Now, that's within your scope. You're

16 running the same test; you're just using a different

17 temperature, right. I mean, that's like a no-brainer.

18 There's other ones that say you don't have to use this

19 procedure at all. It's not applicable. Like when

20 Paul's products first came out and said you use this

21 completely different procedure. That one, I would

22 argue is not necessarily within someone's scope
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1 atomically.

2 MALE SPEAKER: Like VRF.

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Like VRF is a good example.

4 So someone that can run a CAC test procedure doesn't

5 necessarily isn't necessarily able to run a VRF.

6 MR. AMRANE: Do you think that the actual

7 17025 will give you that?

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: No, no, no, no. I was

9 thinking it should be in the scope. Now, I mean that

10 I'm not arguing necessarily this point. I'm just

11 saying some of them I think may need to be separately

12 within the scope. Others, just like as a temperature

13 thing are simple just changes to a test procedure to

14 accommodate a given product's design.

15 MR. EISNER: The new one that you would have

16 to add to the scope of the testing laboratory, when

17 would that be out?

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: So before a manufacturer can

19 use it to come up with a rating, it has to be approved

20 by DOE. It's put on the photo register; it's put on

21 our website. They then can use it for their

22 certification testing, coming up with their ratings.
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1 They have to certify it with DOE. They have to say

2 they used a waiver. They have to say which basic

3 models they applied it to. It has to all match all the

4 paperwork, et cetera, et cetera. So -- and the lab

5 would know.

6 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah. So if I'm a manufacturer

7 and I'm participating in a DOE-approved program, I

8 would think that when the manufacturer gets the waiver

9 they would notify whoever is running their DOE approved

10 program that, hey, I just got this waiver.

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Or they take option two where

12 they want to test in their own lab and they make sure

13 it's within their scope. And by default, they agree to

14 have someone there on site, because it's within their

15 scope. And that's the end of that.

16 MR. WHITWELL: Bob Whitwell from Carrier.

17 There's another approach, too, and that is -- I mean,

18 DOE is making selections on what's tested. So DOE

19 could say --

20 MS. BARHYDT: We haven't talked about who's

21 going to select it.

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: But that's a --
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1 MR. WHITWELL: But it could be, and DOE could

2 say look at this product, it doesn't have a standard

3 test procedure, it's a waiver. And they maybe say it

4 could be some discussion with the manufacturer. Okay,

5 we're going to select a different product. Right. I

6 mean, you don't have to test products that have this

7 sort of an issue. Over time, they're going to get

8 sorted out.

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: And in theory, you know, we

10 just go away with test procedure rules.

11 MR. AMRANE: Well, technically, a waiver is

12 just a temporary thing. I mean, eventually there will

13 be a test procedure.

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, that's what I was

15 trying to say. In theory, it's supposed to be a

16 temporary thing; correct?

17 MR. WHITWELL: So it can be handled.

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: I agree.

19 MR. HON: Charlie Hon. If we do this

20 carefully and people pay attention to the detail, all

21 we'd have to do is then write our scopes differently,

22 not say test the ASHRE standard 72. Instead, say test
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1 the CFR 10430, which would include the waivers.

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's not in the waiver.

3 MS. BARHYDT: It's not in the CFR at all.

4 MR. HON: The specification test procedures?

5 MS. BARHYDT: Not for the waivers. It's an

6 order issued by the department.

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, if you put -- I have

8 all of 431 in my scope, then okay. But if somebody

9 actually says okay to that, that's a little -- I mean,

10 that's not okay. Because that's like I'm good at

11 everything, I'm okay at everything, I can run

12 everything, but not --

13 MR. HON: Well, 431 commercial refrigeration.

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: It would not encompass your

15 waiver.

16 MR. HON: Okay, that's what I'm asking.

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah.

18 MR. FLY: Mark Fly, with AAON. Now, I heard

19 earlier about we were talking about accrediting bodies.

20 Is that how you determine whether a test is in the

21 scope is by looking at the accreditation from an

22 accrediting body, or the lab --
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's not going to work,

2 right, for a manufacturer's log.

3 MR. FLY: Well, if you were being on a

4 satellite underneath the --

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: That would.

6 MR. FLY: -- 17025 that was accredited by an

7 accrediting body, then I assume that would filter down.

8 If it's, you know, is there some other path to become a

9 recognized laboratory if you're a manufacturer? I

10 haven't seen us talk about that, doing it through a

11 satellite-type program.

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right.

13 MR. FLY: So really, the accrediting bodies

14 are the ones that are telling you what the scope is on

15 each one. Now, I assume they're going to accredit you

16 to 430, you know, one of your DOE test procedures and

17 not necessarily the waiver thereof, but the waiver we'd

18 get, DOE would recognize it if you wrote a waiver on

19 that test procedure that that would be acceptable.

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't know. We've never

21 ventured down this pathway before. But like the

22 example I gave, I mean, some of them are very simple;
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1 some of them are just a simple different operating

2 temperature, or range or something. Different

3 location, you know. Other ones are a completely

4 different method of test.

5 MR. FLY: But I could see pushback from an

6 accrediting authority to add something to the scope of

7 the standard that's not a standard.

8 MR. KOJAK: This is Mike Kojak with UL.

9 Because when we get audited yearly by our accreditors,

10 if they specially pick a project that has a waiver and

11 then that is not in their scope of accreditation, there

12 will be an issue with that. You know, 'cause they'll

13 go on, you know, because everything has to be traceable

14 and documented, and everything is carefully followed.

15 So if we're conducting tests that are not in our scope

16 --

17 MR. EISNER: Are you making the point that

18 because it's not in the CFR, you can't put it in your

19 scope, or are you saying something else?

20 MR. KOJAK: I'm saying that just because have

21 like a 430 subpart B, let's say in there, but we run a

22 waiver of a product like that, that's not exactly
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1 subpart B, they're going to have an issue with --

2 MR. EISNER: Which waiver is it?

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: I agree.

4 MR. KOJAK: Is it something different than

5 what part B says?

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. No, I understand.

7 MR. KOJAK: I mean, we do -- I mean, that

8 kind of goes into effect with, you know, we do a lot of

9 RND testing in our lab as well. So a lot of the

10 testing that we're doing is driven by the

11 manufacturers, and it's not per the actual standard.

12 Which is kind of a big ordeal every time they come and

13 audit us for us to explain, just because let's say it's

14 ARHI 34360 test and they look at what we actually did;

15 it might not have the exact same test conditions or the

16 tests aren't exactly the same, because we're being told

17 by our customer exactly how they want us to run it.

18 But the setup and the calculations and everything are

19 exactly the same as 346360.

20 But I mean, I guess it might fall under the

21 same kind of thing, now that I'm thinking about it.

22 Because it's the exact same, you know, the main meat
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1 and potatoes of the regulation. But just something

2 slightly has changed. But as long as there's some kind

3 of documentation, I think, from the DOE about that,

4 then our accreditors would be okay with it.

5 MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel with Mitsubishi. I

6 think we're getting off track again with this

7 discussion on waivers. Because if a product is covered

8 under a waiver, then it's not covered by this

9 verification program yet; right?

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: No.

11 MS. BARHYDT: No.

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's covered.

13 MR. WHITWELL: You mean it's not, or not,

14 it's --

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: It is covered. Why wouldn't

16 it be?

17 MS. BARHYDT: It's a basic model that's been

18 certified.

19 MR. WHITWELL: So a waiver (inaudible).

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's not a waiver.

21 MR. DOPPEL: No, no, no. VRF systems had not

22 been incorporated into --
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: They are now though; right?

2 So once you start certifying --

3 MR. DOPPEL: Right. But this whole

4 discussion about, you know, if we have a waiver on a

5 product, that's what I'm saying.

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. Well, you got the

7 waiver prior to a lot of things. Sometimes waivers are

8 not actually obtained until two years after

9 distribution and commerce. This is not really how the

10 process is supposed to go.

11 MR. DOPPEL: Well, that's because the waiver

12 took two and a half years, you know.

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: No, no, no, that's not --

14 MS. BARHYDT: No, it's not.

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: They don't any more.

16 MS. BARHYDT: Not any more.

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Anyhow, I agree. The waiver,

18 products that -- it really comes down to certification.

19 If you've certified a product, period, it's subject to

20 verification at this point.

21 MR. DOPPEL: Right.

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Because that means it's
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1 subject to standards; it's supposed to be tested; you

2 are making representations and you are distributing it

3 in commerce. Regardless of whether it's a DOE test

4 procedure or waiver.

5 MS. MEYERS: But wouldn't the verification be

6 done for the waiver?

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Absolutely. It's whatever

8 the applicable DOE test procedure is, which includes a

9 waiver.

10 MS. MEYERS: So I fail to see what the issue

11 is.

12 MS. BARHYDT: Well, the issue is that it's a

13 wording issue. Because right now it says that it has

14 to be within the scope. And the labs don't have

15 waivers within their scope right now.

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Explicitly.

17 MS. BARHYDT: Explicitly. And so it's a

18 question of whether or not that would be within the

19 scope of their (inaudible).

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: We'll just have to work out

21 the details.

22 MS. MEYERS: Okay.
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1 MR. HON: Let's propose this: DOE has the

2 right to accept data from a non-17025 waiver that is

3 done by the agency and the test agency, which are

4 competent for the main testing. Until that waiver is

5 no longer valid.

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay.

7 MR. HON: Thereby, we could work it out

8 between us. He doesn't violate his 17025 listing by

9 saying this is not part of the scope of it. But he's

10 still a 17025 for 430. Does that work?

11 MS. BARHYDT: I think it probably would.

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: We'll have to think about the

13 words, but yeah.

14 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah.

15 MR. HON: Yeah, but you get the gist of what

16 I'm saying.

17 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah.

18 MR. HON: Because they're a competent body at

19 the main test; therefore, they're not going to apply

20 for competency as a part of that waiver for their cost,

21 and for our cost and for everybody else's cost. But

22 they're able to be a third party verifier.
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Just make a note for us to

2 look back at --

3 MR. MYERS: So this is something like DOE

4 will accept data --

5 COURT REPORTER: Can you speak louder,

6 please, sir? Because they were speaking over you.

7 MR. MYERS: Oh, I'm sorry. This is Frank

8 Myers, PVI.

9 I was thinking that it would need to say

10 something like that DOE will accept data from a -- and

11 then describe the laboratory like you did. That way

12 the laboratory would be able to show this why I'm able

13 to run this test, that DOE says they'll accept data

14 like this for waivers.

15 MR. WHITWELL: And what does that say?

16 MS. BARHYDT: It says we need to develop some

17 language to address accepting test data from labs where

18 the product is subject to DOE test procedure waiver.

19 It's mainly just a bookmark for us to figure out.

20 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah.

21 MS. BARHYDT: And say something about it.

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, not to get off of the
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1 waiver discussion, but is there anything on the slide

2 that should be different for CRE? Can we just add CRE

3 to this one?

4 MR. HON: I have no problem.

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: For testing requirements.

6 MR. EISNER: Does anybody have a problem?

7 Anybody want to abstain on it in terms of the

8 informality we're going through here with approving

9 these things? Everybody's okay with it? Good.

10 MR. SHEBIK: This is Ron Shebik (inaudible).

11 It's the only question I have. I know it

12 came up in earlier discussions. But why for CRE, and I

13 think Mary brought this up as well, what about the

14 testing program where UL or Intertek or somebody would

15 oversee it, but not exactly witness it?

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: That option is not accounted

17 for here.

18 MS. DANE: Like our Energy Star programs we

19 talked about.

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct. This requires a

21 witness.

22 MR. HON: Or a third party verification.
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Or a third party.

2 MR. EISNER: Did you hear that?

3 MR. BAUMAN: We have third party -- and I'm

4 trying to give clarification to Ron. So you either

5 have testing by a third party, testing in a

6 manufacturing lab with witness testing.

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's it.

8 MR. BAUMAN: Okay. Do we want to put on

9 their CRE full satellite program. Is that your

10 question, Ron?

11 MR. SHEBIK: Well, just because, I mean look

12 at the stuff for a lot of CRE companies, I mean, we're

13 under the satellite (inaudible), the UL client test

14 data program. And again, that's dismissed the purpose

15 of DOE and our energy conservation. But I mean, we're

16 doing these type programs for safety and food product

17 safety. So why would we not do it for performance in

18 energy? Why would we have to have the extra stuff of

19 having a witness there on site, as opposed to be able

20 to perform our own tasks and submit the data to the

21 agency?

22 MR. BAUMAN: I would agree with that. Even
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1 at level four where you've been certified to be able to

2 the submit the data, the ANC still has to review it,

3 but you would not need a witness test.

4 MR. SHEBIK: Right. That's under satellite

5 for units under UL client test data program. I mean,

6 if that's sufficient for the safety of the end user,

7 and as well as food product safety, then why would it

8 not be sufficient for something like this?

9 MR. HON: It's also acceptable for Energy

10 Star and Canon.

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: You said you weren't going to

12 do that to me.

13 MR. SHEBIK: Bringing a witness is a burden.

14 MS. DANE: Would it be helpful to bring you

15 some of the information to see how those programs are

16 set up? I mean, these aren't easy things for us to

17 qualify for and to do.

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: It wouldn't hurt to circulate

19 it before the next meeting, just so that everyone is

20 under the same page in terms of --

21 MS. DANE: We can do that. So you'd

22 understand the difference between the level three and a
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1 level (inaudible).

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Sure. That'd be helpful,

3 thank you.

4 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. And out of my

5 usual ignorance, my sense is that NSF and perhaps

6 others have formal programs for assuring the safety and

7 the food product safety. So my question is really sort

8 of an inverse. Is it feasible that NSF would want to

9 take the energy performance under their ages as well,

10 so that you have a uniform set of requirements that

11 would look like a VICP to DOE?

12 MR. THARP: Well, this is Rusty with Goodman.

13 I'm going to interject something here. We keep

14 referencing the satellite program that is used for

15 safety testing. Well, one thing, another portion of

16 those safety testings is quarterly audits where the

17 safety certification company, UL, Intertek, whoever,

18 comes into your facility on a random basis, unannounced

19 typically and audits products as they're going down the

20 production line. So I might suggest that if this is a

21 way we want to do for performance, then just the same

22 thing would happen for energy audits. If you want to
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1 use that procedure.

2 MR. SHEBIK: (Inaudible). I would agree that

3 it should parallel with the existing programs for

4 safety and food (inaudible).

5 Jeff, Charlie, do you guys have a problem

6 with that?

7 MR. BAUMAN: This is Jeff. You know, if the

8 product is NSF-certified, you know, certified NSF and

9 certified to UL, then that's certifying the components

10 that are in there. So I don't know that we need to

11 physically call out as part of the DOE requirements you

12 have to be NS- or UL-certified. I know EPS or Energy

13 Star does that. But you're not going to be selling

14 that product if it's not per your safety and

15 sanitation.

16 MS. DANE: NSF is the certifying body for

17 Energy Star, are they not? Aren't they one of the ones

18 that can be picked?

19 MR. BAUMAN: They're one of the certification

20 bodies that are -- but it's a different program, it's

21 for energy testing versus -- so it's a completely

22 different (inaudible).
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1 MS. DANE: Right. But he's saying about

2 combining them so they could come in and do it, too.

3 MR. HON: Charlie Hon. There's a difference

4 here, because part of the testing process for Energy

5 Star and for CSA is ongoing third party verification

6 systems. Where they call up and tell us what models,

7 each six months we have to go through retesting and

8 reverification process. It's not like we're just -

9 they're often never looking at us. They're coming in,

10 witnessing those every six months witness test along

11 with what data we would submit in between times. It is

12 an ongoing witness and data certification. It is not

13 one or the other, it is both.

14 MS. BARHYDT: So they are doing witness

15 testing.

16 MR. HON: Yes.

17 MR. SHEBIK: Right, and they do a spot check

18 every six months, I believe.

19 MR. HON: We have to produce a certain number

20 of units, which is directly proportional with the

21 number of units we have listed.

22 MS. DANE: The percentage is different than
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1 your percentage.

2 MS. BARHYDT: We don't know what our

3 percentage is.

4 MS. DANE: Well, we've been talking about 20

5 percent. Theirs is lower.

6 MR. SHEBIK: This is Ron with Hussmann again.

7 In addition to the agency coming in every six months

8 and doing their witness test, you would also have the

9 ability to do your own testing in-house and some of the

10 data without having a witness present every time you do

11 your own in-house testing. So there are spot checks

12 twice a year. But that is twice a year. Any

13 additional testing would not require witnessing.

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay.

15 MR. SHEBIK: So that's the difference between

16 having a witness for every single test.

17 MR. HON: We would love to parallel the

18 witness testing from that and we could do it all at one

19 time.

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Who's "them"?

21 MS. DANE: EPA.

22 MR. HON: They're doing EPA Energy Star
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1 testing for us.

2 MS. DANE: And they're going to use your

3 standard, you're saying? It's a shame to duplicate all

4 that programs.

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's accurate.

6 MR. HON: That is a very cost-effective

7 method, because we can set up multiple units at the

8 same time and run them all at the same time.

9 MR. SACHS: Am I getting the assurance I

10 need? That's my only question. (Inaudible) parallels.

11 MR. HON: This system we're talking about has

12 third party witness testing at least ten percent of the

13 system every year.

14 MS. DANE: And we don't pick the units, they

15 do. They send us a note and say here's what we want to

16 see, be ready.

17 MR. BAUMAN: Harvey, is your (inaudible)

18 better than DOE?

19 And your question is regarding the safety of

20 the equipment for holding temperature, or are you just

21 talking about for -- I'm trying to understand the

22 question better.
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1 MR. SACHS: Yeah, I'm sorry, Jeff.

2 As a consumer, I'm very much interested in my

3 ice cream being hard and my yogurt being safe. As a

4 stakeholder here, if you can do it with less energy, I

5 like it. But I mostly have to be relatively sure that

6 your product's not using more energy than the law would

7 allow. So I'm looking for that level of assurance,

8 just as I'm looking at that from any other VICP or

9 independent method. That's all I care about.

10 MS. DANE: I believe we have that assurance.

11 Because I -- when they come in, their eyes are looking

12 at different things. The follow-up service comes in,

13 and they're looking at certain products to certain

14 standards. So if they were --

15 MR. SACHS: But my understanding the sort of

16 level three, level four, the level that my units

17 capable of --

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I think I suggested a

19 little bit earlier, and Mary offered that they'd

20 circulate the documents and describe that, we'll think

21 about it.

22 MR. SACHS: Maybe the execute summary.
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. And touch back on it

2 next time.

3 MS. DANE: Right, okay.

4 MR. BAUMAN: I think the other thing, Harvey,

5 when you talk about that stuff and what concerns us

6 also, is that you get into a little bit of discussion

7 what the test standard is. You know, you're testing

8 for 75 degrees for energy and different. Although,

9 there's been some changes to that to bring closer to

10 the NSF. But again, you get into commercial kitchens,

11 what's the temperature they're operating in versus

12 where you -- because if you're designing for energy

13 that doesn't mean it's going to hold your food safely

14 at 100 degrees or 90 degrees that a kitchen's at,

15 versus 75 degrees test. So --

16 MR. SACHS: We would welcome the opportunity

17 to take those discussions to any test procedure with

18 reality.

19 MR. BAUMAN: I will get with you on that.

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: We semi addressed that in the

21 last CRE rule.

22 MR. BAUMAN: Well, as I said, you're getting
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1 closer.

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Some acknowledgement, right.

3 MR. SACHS: And at this rate, we'll converge

4 by 2015.

5 MR. AMRANE: I'll take what I can get.

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: No, I'm going to suggest

7 since there are two major boiler players not here, that

8 we deal with boilers separately. Because we know we

9 have issues, we'll deal with them when they can be

10 available to talk about it and have ideas. If that's

11 okay with everyone.

12 MS. MEYERS: That's fine.

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay.

14 MS. BARHYDT: Do you want to talk about how

15 many units?

16 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik with AHRI. I

17 mean, right now, we have vanilla and chocolate. We

18 have the program for the criteria for HVAC, and then we

19 have this. Do you think we're going to have strawberry

20 for boilers? I mean, it's going to be one or the

21 other, right? Isn't that likely? Couldn't you at

22 least --
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1 MALE SPEAKER: We like Neapolitan, too.

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: The answer is I don't know.

3 Based on those emails, it doesn't seem like --

4 MR. STANONIK: Okay, all right.

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: It may take us a while to get

6 to vanilla, chocolate, or strawberry.

7 MR. EISNER: I'm holding out for peanut

8 butter.

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: I'll take that one, too.

10 MS. BARHYDT: The people who wrote the email

11 (inaudible), too.

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't want anything to do

13 with strawberry.

14 MS. BARHYDT: We do have one of them as --

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, I think it's going to

16 require a little more.

17 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah, and some of this we want

18 to go back and look at some of this ourselves. So I

19 think it would just be more productive to have the

20 boiler discussion later.

21 MR. SACHS: Frank, we just haven't had our

22 (inaudible) yet.
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1 MS. BARHYDT: So in terms of how many units

2 to test, let's split it out again between built-to3 order to engineer to order and built-to-stock.

4 MR. STEPHENS: And small manufacturers?

5 MS. BARHYDT: What if you're a small

6 manufacturer who makes an enormous volume?

7 MR. STEPHENS: You wouldn't have the

8 classification of small manufacturer for long.

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, you would. Because

10 under our regs -- so it depends -- under our regs,

11 small manufacturer can just be number of employees,

12 that simple. Not necessarily revenue. So it could be

13 that you're really -- I mean, you don't employ a lot,

14 or you just bring in products and label them. I mean,

15 that's a manufacturer as well under our regs. And so --

16 MR. EISNER: Is there any reason to consider

17 using a definitive definition just for this rule?

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't know. That's an

19 idea. I mean, it's where we have SBA's classifications

20 and sometimes they use expenditures, and sometimes they

21 use number of employees. It's really depending on

22 NAICS, NACIS, whatever it is. When you look up those
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1 really long tables and find the industry. So we just

2 departmentize.

3 MR. EISNER: I believe you have the authority

4 to use your own definition in particular situations.

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: I know in our test procedures

6 and standards rules and other aspects of it, we use

7 that. So I don't know if we want to use a separate

8 definition just for this aspect of the program. But

9 that's not including us.

10 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers. Might you

11 be able to use volume of product shipped, a particular,

12 even down to a product family how many of that product

13 family shipped?

14 MR. EISNER: What are we talking about?

15 MS. DANE: I'm not getting the volumes.

16 Don't go down there.

17 MR. EISNER: What are we talking about is the

18 problem that you see the small entities facing here?

19 MR. MYERS: The number of tests you have to

20 do for --

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: They're just certifications.

22 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim with AHRI. I
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1 think before we talked about --

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Would that work?

3 MR. AMRANE: -- incentives with models being

4 tested.

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Some more things.

6 MR. AMRANE: I think we need to define. We

7 were talking last time about the product family from

8 the basic model group.

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: We can use another term.

10 Multiple terms can be confusing. We have done a lot of

11 work in defining basic models. I don't know if there

12 is a way we could translate a percentage into basic

13 models terms so we keep a singular term, but the impact

14 is such on a percentage-wise that would be something

15 that everyone is okay with. So, I mean, if you use

16 basic model groups now and it is ten percent and when

17 translated to basic models it's five percent, then

18 maybe your number is five percent or maybe it goes the

19 other way. It's 10 percent now and it goes 20 percent.

20 I don't know. And I could be wrong, but introducing

21 another term for the purposes of this may be confusing.

22 I don't know what people -- I see shaking your heads
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1 and no-ing of heads.

2 MR. FLY: This is Mark Fly With AAON. One of

3 my concerns is that some of the smaller companies, and

4 "smaller" to be defined, I consider myself a smaller

5 company, compared to some of the people sitting in this

6 room certainly, but we have an awful lot of SKUs. You

7 know, we have a lot. We were going to have a lot of

8 basic models --

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: You are.

10 MR. FLY: -- just because of what we build.

11 And so when you defined a percentage of basic models, I

12 am going to be doing a lot of testing compared to

13 somebody who may be, you know, a three trillion-dollar

14 company that is not doing very much because they only

15 make a whole lot of one or two items.

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: So are there a couple of

17 characteristics that we could say, you know, percentage

18 of model --

19 MR. FLY: I don't want an answer, by the way.

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, I know. That's no

21 problem.

22 -- number of models certified or employee
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1 number buckets or something that would get at, you

2 know, "I am small, but I have a large product

3 offering." I mean, you could also be a small

4 manufacturer and make 5 products and make 100,000 of

5 each of the 5. And in that case, you know --

6 MR. FLY: Not many people in this --

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Absolutely. Right?

8 MR. FLY: -- are going to do this.

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: I agree. I was making more

10 of an egregious example just to get that point across.

11 MR. FLY: If you're making light bulbs,

12 you're right. Yes.

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, in that case, it's

14 not the same as a small manufacturer like you who is

15 going to make or, you know --

16 MR. FLY: But I have more than 500 employees.

17 I'm not going to be a small manufacturer.

18 MR. AMRANE: I think the basic concept has

19 worked at least within AHRI for smaller and larger

20 manufacturers at the same time.

21 MR. FLY: And what that has kind of done --

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: How do you make your
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1 selections? I mean, how is it that -- right now is it

2 just the thought-out requirement of ten percent? I was

3 trying to read through some of this. I apologize I

4 didn't get through all of the manuals you sent out.

5 MR. AMRANE: AHRI is about 20 percent of the

6 basic model groups, which has probably found the -- in

7 general, that's programs which have different rules.

8 MR. FLY: From my standpoint for my company -

9 - this is Mark Fly again -- what that has done is I

10 don't have to test any less than Jill, but I test the

11 same as Jill probably because we probably had about the

12 same basic model family. So, you know, at least I am

13 not testing more, but I suspect I am going to have more

14 basic models the way DOE has defined than Jill might

15 have. I don't know that for a fact.

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. I mean, I guess --

17 MS. HOOTMAN: There are other that have if

18 you don't.

19 MR. FLY: Yes. So in a class of product.

20 MS. BARHYDT: I mean, we could do a two-part

21 test where it is some percentage of basic models, but

22 it is capped based on how many units you ship each year
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1 so that if you ship -- I don't even know what a

2 reasonable number is --

3 MR. FLY: Yes. The problem is --

4 MS. BARHYDT: -- 10,000 units, it won't go

5 over some number and if it's under --

6 MR. FLY: Well, they do want --

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. I was going to say --

8 MR. FLY: -- because of --

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, not even like --

10 MR. FLY: -- proprietary information.

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Buckets, not even like large

12 buckets.

13 MR. FLY: If I gave you large buckets, I

14 would be --

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, I mean, technically --

16 MR. EISNER: There could be another measure

17 that would work.

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.

19 MS. DANE: At the beginning, didn't we define

20 families of CRE? I mean, I assumed that was --

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Substantiation classes.

22 MS. DANE: Okay. So wouldn't those same
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1 substantiation classes at least work for CRE that we

2 could work on that, you know, work from that point

3 because, like everybody else, we're going to have lots

4 of basic models, too? So we would like to find a way

5 to take the basic models and be able to group them into

6 larger groups and make the selection from there. And,

7 like I said, as we explain the programs we now belong

8 to, you know, where the selection is random, you would

9 still get your verification testing that you would be

10 comfortable with because still everything is open to

11 you picking. It's just the number of things you feel

12 you have to pick because of the program we are in.

13 MR. FLY: One thing we can look at, though,

14 that you will have is how many basic models do we have

15 listed with you within a product class.

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. So, I mean, those are

17 the two terms in our regs; right?

18 MR. FLY: Right.

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: You hit it right on the head:

20 the product class and --

21 MR. FLY: Class --

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- then basic model.
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1 MR. FLY: -- which is the ASRAE division

2 basically at 90 points more or less.

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right now at least, yes.

4 MR. FLY: Right.

5 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik with AHRI. Let

6 me suggest an alternative approach. You have I think

7 three critical factors. The first one is how many

8 AEDMs you have, you know, how many AEDMs you have, how

9 many basic models you have, and what's in the AEDMs.

10 They're going to cover the model families and make over

11 all your model families. They may cover two in one

12 AEDM. They might cover two in another AEDM, whatever.

13 And then maybe the last question is, okay. So

14 manufacturers won't give you their shipment

15 information, but it seems to me, let's say, the average

16 annual business of that particular product is a factor.

17 As an example -- and this is going to be

18 absurd. Okay. Let's say we were talking about

19 commercial water heaters. And let's say that DOE was

20 aware that there were 20 manufacturers in the

21 commercial water heater business. Okay? And the

22 annual sales of commercial water heaters was 20,000.
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1 Okay? That becomes to me part of the factor because it

2 suggests nobody is making a lot of commercial water

3 heaters, not if you have 20 people in the business.

4 And, again, you know, I'm not sure if everybody would

5 be -- you know, whether that is reasonable or not, but

6 some indication of, let's call it, the annual level of

7 business of the product to me becomes a factor in how

8 many you need to test.

9 I mean, you know, again, if the whole

10 industry is only making 20,000 and, let's say, that

11 encompasses 2,000 models, well, how many of those do

12 you really need to test? I mean, those things need to

13 be considered, as opposed to the case let's say you had

14 a business that was pumping out 2 million and you had

15 the same 2,000 basic models. Now that is a whole

16 different situation.

17 MR. FLY: This is Mark Fly again. I think we

18 ought to consider some kind of limitations for a number

19 of classes per product and lab, one way that you can

20 get to part of that, you know.

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.

22 MR. FLY: You know, product class is a bigger
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1 group than the basic model group, quite a bit bigger

2 group than a basic model group, but it's not as big as

3 the basic model, which could be -- depending on whether

4 I want to offer two evaporator coils in my five-ton or

5 three evaporator coils in my five-ton, all of a sudden,

6 I have refreeze it. Every time I offer another

7 evaporator coil, I double the number of tests I have to

8 do if you're doing it on basic models.

9 MS. HOOTMAN: Right, but you're saying so

10 like we have a product class right now that is 65 to

11 135 for us, for commercial HVAC.

12 MR. FLY: They may not have something to --

13 MS. HOOTMAN: So you're saying that there's

14 like a cap. You have X amount or percentage, but then

15 there's a cap for that particular product class.

16 MR. FLY: Class.

17 MS. HOOTMAN: That might be without going

18 into -- and I understand what you're getting at, Frank,

19 with market size, but I am just -- who are they going

20 to use for the market statistics? And where are they

21 going to get them?

22 MR. FLY: Well, in your example, if you had
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1 20 people making them and 20,000 water heaters, one guy

2 could be making 18,000 of them.

3 MR. EISNER: Is this something we should put

4 up on the screen to look at?

5 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. And I'd like to

6 take a different -- make a suggestion of an alternative

7 approach. I hate giving any credit at all to AHRI, and

8 they know it.

9 MS. HOOTMAN: But we'll note it.

10 MR. SACHS: But, on the other hand, what I am

11 hearing is echoes of what I think I would have heard

12 for 40 years as their various sections had fought among

13 each other and between each other about are you guys

14 being too lax relative to the standards we have set for

15 our sides as we compete? And it seems to me that our

16 null hypothesis might be that they have about the right

17 number and we ought to figure out where it is wrong or

18 they have about the right numbers. If we can't figure

19 out what is wrong, why don't we just use theirs for

20 verification?

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't think anyone is

22 opposed to necessarily using that balance. It's that
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1 we have agreed to a different term.

2 MR. SACHS: In terms of basic model.

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: So how do you translate the

4 number, the appropriate number, to the term? And it

5 could be that there is not a one-to-one translation

6 because it is different for every manufacturer. In

7 other words, we're getting -- and maybe we need another

8 term. I don't know the answer. It may be that we need

9 -- but how do you define that term such that we know

10 that percentage is being met?

11 MR. SACHS: Okay. I may have gotten ahead of

12 myself for praising AHRI.

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. I don't think anyone is

14 necessarily saying we need to do more or less or what

15 they're doing isn't working. We're just trying to

16 understand what it is that you do. And given all of

17 the progress we have made, how does that then apply in

18 our regs?

19 MR. SACHS: I will climb back into my cave.

20 MS. MEYERS: So this is Karen with Rheem. I

21 think you bring up a good point. And I think AHRI has

22 some information on how the different sections define
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1 basic model group, which is that we're trying to get

2 from basic model to some other term to make sure the

3 program - - maybe it's certification group, for lack of

4 a better term. Maybe we invent a new term here. But

5 we have definitions for basic model group. And they

6 are different between sections on how those -- because

7 the products are different. And so I don't know if we

8 can share that.

9 (Simultaneous discussion.)

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: He did.

11 MS. MEYERS: All right.

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: He sent it around. And

13 that's what we looked at. I mean, and I'm not opposed

14 to it necessarily, but, remember, when we went through

15 basic models, especially for HVAC, part of this like

16 guidance and stuff like that was to incorporate a lot

17 of what you guys are using for basic model group into

18 our regs. So I am wondering, is it necessary? Do we

19 need another term? Does it cause more confusion?

20 Because, remember, we already have substantiation class

21 and equipment class and basic model. Do we need just

22 for the percentage? I don't know the answer. I'm just
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1 saying I want to be careful with the number of terms

2 because I know in the past, that has been a lot of

3 where the confusion has --

4 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim with AHRI. There

5 is no question if we compare the basic model definition

6 that we have agreed to here --

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.

8 MR. AMRANE: -- versus the basic model group

9 definition, that you are going to end up with many more

10 basic models than you have basic model groups. So at

11 least, you know, if you use basic model as a way to

12 test product, then you will have to test, not test at

13 20 percent because we do it today within AHRI, but what

14 that number is going to be, we don't know.

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's what we're trying to

16 reconcile; right?

17 MR. AMRANE: I mean, they're going to be --

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, it's like if somebody

19 says -- say I'm a manufacturer and DOE says, "Hey,

20 Ashley Manufacturing Facility, I want to know that you

21 tested or someone has raised a question as to whether

22 you are really testing your five percent or not. Show
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1 me your data." Well, how does DOE or anyone else, for

2 that matter, have a way to say, you know, that's how

3 they should have added up to their five percent and

4 they did or they did not? That's where we're going

5 here.

6 MS. MEYERS: I think for some product

7 classes, you are going to need a new term. In other

8 pro duct classes, you are not going to need a new term.

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: And maybe the point of this

10 is we break off in our little groups and come back next

11 time or this afternoon or tomorrow or whatever with a

12 proposal after we think about it.

13 MS. MEYERS: Yes. I think that's what you

14 need to do because for HVAC, it's going to be a lot

15 more complicated than commercial water heaters.

16 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim with AHRI. The

17 issue here is going to be that we have new definitions

18 now for basic model.

19 MS. MEYERS: I know.

20 MR. AMRANE: Manufacturers don't know now how

21 this is going to work out, I mean, how many of those

22 basic models they are going to have. So if we are
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1 talking about addressing those issues in two meetings

2 or one or I don't know how many meetings we have, three

3 more meetings --

4 MS. BARHYDT: Not a lot.

5 MR. AMRANE: Not a lot.

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's a problem.

7 MR. AMRANE: It's going to be very difficult.

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: I know.

9 MR. AMRANE: So I don't know, then. It has

10 to weigh. And maybe a better way would be to separate

11 this issue from the rest and discuss in a different

12 venue. I don't know.

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. We can table it. I

14 mean, if you guys want to talk among yourselves and see

15 if we can come up with something. We just need a way

16 to say, you know, if you're not a member of AHRI, if

17 you are, you know, this is how you should be grouping

18 your models, period. And to qualify for this program,

19 you need to test X number of models. I don't know at

20 this point if DOE has an opinion on the grouping is,

21 what it should be called, or what the right number is.

22 MR. FLY: This is Mark Fly with AAON. Is DOE
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1 in general satisfied with the amount of testing that

2 AHRI is moving in products?

3 MS. BARHYDT: I have no sense of how much.

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: I was about to say I don't

5 think we know what that is.

6 MR. FLY: Okay.

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: You know, Karim circulated --

8 and it's not to say that it's a lot or a little, but I

9 think Karim circulated the definitions. And that's

10 great, but what does that equate to in real terms?

11 MR. FLY: Right.

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Like what does that mean for

13 your products? So what does that mean for her

14 products? What does that mean annually?

15 MR. FLY: And that's the reason I kind of

16 wanted to tie things back to the product classes

17 because most of us have an "N/A" product family. I

18 hate to throw that term out from a marketing term in a

19 product family. We have a five-ton. We have a seven20 ton. We have a ten- ton, you know. And those are the

21 basic model groups today. And for somebody that is

22 building fairly simple units, they might have three
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1 units in that product class. For somebody that builds

2 something with a lot of options and a lot of variety,

3 they might have 20 units in that class. And that

4 doesn't mean that they're selling 20 times more than or

5 7 times more than the other guy. It's not. It's just

6 that we're serving a little different market.

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. So is this one maybe

8 we should table and see if you guys can talk?

9 MS. BARHYDT: Or do you all want to use some

10 time this afternoon to break up into groups? What

11 would work best?

12 MR. EISNER: It's about time for a break. Go

13 ahead, Wes.

14 MR. WOSTAL: Along the lines of -- and I

15 missed last week's meeting. So forgive me if I say

16 something that was discussed or ask a question about

17 something that I should know. But along the lines of

18 what Karim was saying just a few minutes ago, it is

19 going to be difficult for everybody to really know

20 until we have to put together, you know, almost entered

21 all of our models into this system.

22 And I think, as I understood, there was some
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1 discussion about that AHRI was asking for an 18-month

2 extension after this final -- after the working group

3 is finished here. And at one point, there was a

4 compromise thrown out that if we were to say, instead

5 of going to 18 months, we went with 18, but that 12

6 months would be the time period that everybody would

7 have to get all of their data submitted to DOE and then

8 the final 6 months would be -- after 6 months passed,

9 after the first 12 was when DOE would start enforcing

10 and testing. If we want to go down that path after the

11 12 months, when everybody had all of their products

12 entered into DOE, we would have a much better

13 understanding of how many basic models there are and

14 just where we stand and would it be good to then

15 evaluate what percentage should be tested or is that

16 just a bad suggestion?

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: So that's kind of up to you

18 guys around the room. You wanted to address

19 verification programs and the Department approved a

20 verification program for a long time. If you want to

21 put it on hold for a year or two, that's up to you.

22 But in the interim --
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1 MR. FLY: You are going to do an assessment

2 test.

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's a current assumption.

4 MR. FLY: So you are going to do more

5 assessment testing than you would in another program

6 maybe or not.

7 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim with AHRI. I

8 guess what I am saying is that we would need time to

9 come up with a right number. I don't think in two

10 hours or whatever, it is going to do it.

11 MS. BARHYDT: Right.

12 MR. AMRANE: Okay? So, you know, I don't

13 want to rush something if at the end of the day it is

14 not going to be fair or it's not going to be --

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right.

16 MR. AMRANE: So I don't know. If we can do

17 it, great, but, again, the time frame here is getting

18 shorter and shorter and I am not sure.

19 MR. EISNER: And we're putting a lot off.

20 You've got three more days of meetings --

21 MS. HOOTMAN: Oh, yes.

22 MR. EISNER: -- three more meetings.
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: I knew you were going to get

2 --

3 MR. EISNER: Let's take a 10 or 15-minute

4 break. You know, you have gotten so close. Think about

5 whether we have to think about an extension, a brief

6 extension. Think about whether we can get this

7 reasonably done in three days, three meeting days, and

8 do it right. And let's talk about it a little bit more

9 when we get back from the break.

10 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. One other thing before

11 we break. This is Bob Whitwell. So, you know, even

12 before we can figure out how many basic models we have,

13 we still have the motor issue to resolve; right,

14 because if we can go ahead with the approach we talked

15 about and we come to a simple solution for how the

16 worst power is determined on the small motors, maybe we

17 know we can figure out now what the number of basic

18 models are. But until we have that finalized, I'm not

19 sure we can say for sure how that is going to impact

20 us, unfortunately. Okay.

21 MR. SACHS: Neil, if I could ask you a

22 question? Let's assume that we don't resolve this
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1 question and we agree that we don't resolve it now in

2 this process. That would mean I am really asking

3 Ashley and Laura this. It would mean that there would

4 be a rulemaking on the issue of numbers of products and

5 verification testing at some later time.

6 MR. WHITWELL: Can we split it?

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: There could be. There

8 doesn't have --

9 MR. SACHS: And what are the alternatives?

10 MR. EISNER: The alternatives are that they

11 can write their own rule on this issue outside of this

12 meeting group or we can extend the time and probably

13 work it out in this group or they can just ask for

14 comments and we ought to be done, which would just

15 delay the implementation.

16 MR. AMRANE: Karim with AHRI. This is a very

17 important issue. So I want this issue to be discussed,

18 but I am saying that maybe the three meetings that we

19 have will not be enough. And maybe we should move

20 that. Maybe it will mean that we handle this issue

21 outside and have more time for it.

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: So it might be that one
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1 suggestion would be as we get closer to the end, all

2 the stuff we have packaged and voted on and agreed on

3 we pass to ASRAC, get the cert stuff squared away, get

4 the basic model stuff squared away, get the enforcement

5 guidance stuff squared away, get the test procedure

6 guidance stuff squared away, get the date issue squared

7 away that's looming, and then you ask ASRAC to extend

8 the working group's meeting time for verification

9 programs.

10 MR. EISNER: Based on my experience, I think

11 you are going forward with a very good message. You're

12 saying we've got whatever it is, 80 percent or 90

13 percent, of it done. Ashley will start writing it. We

14 will meet sometime in September or whenever and resolve

15 the remaining issues that can then be added to the

16 document. Ashley will have it all done and ready.

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: If we start in September.

18 MR. EISNER: Everybody take 10 minutes, 12

19 minutes. Let's come back.

20 (Whereupon, there was a brief recess.)

21 MR. EISNER: Can everybody take their seat?

22 Why don't we take some time, whatever it takes, to talk
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1 about scheduling and timing in terms of getting all of

2 this done? It looks like from talking to some of you,

3 there is agreement that we cannot get it done by the

4 end of August, but that we can get a significant amount

5 of it done, send that forward, and ask for an extension

6 of the Committee to look at the other stuff. And

7 depending on the success with the remaining issues, DOE

8 at least can start drafting, if not issue, a rule on

9 everything but verification, for example. Do people

10 have any thoughts on this, what they would like to do,

11 what they think is reasonable, how long we might have

12 to seek an extension, whether we should start setting

13 some meetings up for September, in addition to the one

14 meeting we have scheduled?

15 MS. HOOTMAN: My question is, what is exactly

16 left yet to do?

17 MR. EISNER: Well, I know one big issue we

18 discussed last time was the scheduling --

19 MS. HOOTMAN: Right.

20 MR. EISNER: -- and all put together with 6,

21 12, et cetera, months. We have to talk about that

22 because everybody wanted to think about that. We have
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1 motors to talk about and trying to --

2 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. I meant like new

3 enforcements out there, what else says enforcement?

4 MS. BARHYDT: So with respect to

5 verification, it seems to me like we have a lot of

6 issues still to talk about, I mean, if you look at the

7 slides and all the different questions. And we need to

8 address all of those. And I don't think any of them

9 are going to be particularly easy, fast issues. And so

10 my feeling is that we want to do this right, and it is

11 going to take some time to do it right.

12 MR. EISNER: Again, my sense as a neutral in

13 this is that I would feel very comfortable in reporting

14 to the ASHRAE that we had made significant progress, we

15 had significant consensus, one that people thought was

16 going to be attainable by this time or easily

17 attainable by this time. So I would think that they

18 would grant an extension, considering the success,

19 especially because in the worst scenario, they would

20 issue a separate rule with everything but verification

21 and that they would have made significant progress and

22 that could move ahead while we continue to work on
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1 verification.

2 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim with AHRI. And

3 that is fine. Just to clarify, I was not asking that

4 this issue be removed from the scope of this working

5 group. I think that this working group should

6 reconvene and continue to work and deliver it, whatever

7 you have, by the end of the month, but then this issue

8 has to be discussed.

9 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. We're not --

10 MS. MEYERS: So is that a given that this

11 working group would be extended or is that still up to

12 ASHRAC or would a new working group be formed?

13 MR. EISNER: It's up to ASRAC.

14 MS. BARHYDT: It's up to ASRAC.

15 MR. EISNER: And let me stress to Karim and

16 others that we have already talked about how we might

17 be able to at least expedite the process a little. He,

18 for example, would like to make available to his

19 members, members of his group, all of the information

20 that is here or at least enough information so they

21 know what we're talking about, they don't have to see

22 every note and every little thing but that the stuff we
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1 have agreed on, make it available. We could talk about

2 that. And you and I talked a little bit. You don't

3 see a problem in making them publicly available. That

4 might help you to communicate with others if you need

5 to communicate.

6 MS. HOOTMAN: In a way, it has already been

7 public through these things.

8 MS. BARHYDT: Right, exactly.

9 MR. AMRANE: Right, but still the documents

10 today, there are only four members of this committee.

11 At least the access to the SharePoint is only four

12 members of this Committee.

13 MS. BARHYDT: Right.

14 MR. AMRANE: So if it is public, then it

15 should be public. And everybody should have access to

16 the documents as we have access to them, too.

17 MS. BARHYDT: Yes.

18 MR. EISNER: Other thoughts? Other comments?

19 MR. KOJAK: Yes. I got an email cancelling

20 the next meeting. Did anybody else get that?

21 MS. BARHYDT: That's the 21st meeting. We

22 talked about that at several meetings, that there's no
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1 21st meeting.

2 MR. EISNER: You are not invited. There

3 never was a meeting.

4 MR. KOJAK: Actually, I booked a vacation

5 during that time anyway. So I can't be here.

6 MR. EISNER: You wouldn't be going to Alaska,

7 would you?

8 MR. KOJAK: No. Mexico.

9 MR. MYERS: The meeting following --

10 MR. EISNER: Yes, the very end of August.

11 And there is one scheduled for the 26th and 27th of

12 September.

13 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. Well, the 26th. We only

14 reserved one day there.

15 MR. EISNER: Right. So, you know, one of the

16 questions is whether ASRAC will be happy with this, but

17 what we can do is if we agree we want to proceed this

18 way, we could start talking about a draft report to

19 ASRAC on our status. I wouldn't suggest submitting it

20 until we have had our next, tomorrow's, meeting at

21 least. And if we want to wait until the one at the end

22 of August to see how much progress we have made, at
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1 least we will have a draft report ready to go.

2 MR. STEPHENS: I think it is really important

3 for us to go back through what we have so far. There

4 have been a lot of issues that we have said we need to

5 revisit that pending future decisions we are going to

6 make.

7 Now we have met the majority of those. So we

8 really need to go back and scrub this before it goes to

9 ASRAC.

10 MR. EISNER: Yes. And, as I recall, one of

11 the discussions consistently throughout the agreements

12 was the implementation schedule is very important to

13 our agreement on all of these slides. You guys had a

14 good presentation that you made at the last day of the

15 last meeting. So we need to continue that discussion,

16 I think.

17 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers, PVI. I did

18 want to say just by acclimation that I think this group

19 should -- we have worked well together. We certainly

20 have our differences. But we work well together. And

21 I think this group should be negotiating the

22 verification process, not a separate group. So to the
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1 degree that that has any impact on ASRAC's

2 determination, I think there is a commitment from this

3 group to get it done. And they're looking out for the

4 industry's interests. And I'd like to see this group

5 negotiate that part of the rulemaking.

6 MS. MEYERS: This is Karen with Rheem. I'll

7 just echo what Frank said. If it is not this group,

8 then I would not want a new group to come in and start

9 negotiating that point who hasn't had the history. So

10 if that is a possibility, then I would disagree with

11 the path that we just outlined, doing a report and

12 asking for an extension. I would rather us, you know,

13 do 18-hour days to get through it; if it is a

14 possibility that it would not be this group, you know,

15 doing that part of the negotiation. So that is a key

16 point, so much happening there, but, you know, I do

17 think it is an important point.

18 MR. EISNER: You know, it may be easier for

19 me as a neutral who has been through a number of

20 negotiated rulemakings than for Laura and the other DOE

21 people who address this directly. I would be shocked

22 if the full Advisory Committee said no to any of this.
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1 I think they would agree based on the progress that we

2 should continue to negotiate that we should be the ones

3 to negotiate all of the subjects. I can't guarantee

4 that, just as she can't, but I would be shocked if they

5 would disagree with your decisions. We should get this

6 done and get it done right. They would probably be

7 very happy to hear that you all want to stay in the

8 room together with everybody else and do this.

9 MR. MYERS: That's a different question.

10 We want to get it done.

11 MR. EISNER: Okay. Well, then why don't we

12 go ahead and start? We'll start thinking about the

13 details. The one thing I think we might want to talk

14 about now is meeting dates in September. We have got

15 one for the 26th, as I said. Maybe we should talk

16 about extending that to the 27th. No. We can't do it

17 until the 27th?

18 MR. STEPHENS: It's not showing yet on the

19 Teamspace.

20 MR. EISNER: No. It was never put on there,

21 but it was something we agreed. All right. Let's just

22 reopen it a different way. Laura can check. We have
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1 got to make sure rooms are available. Let Laura and

2 others check overnight.

3 MS. BARHYDT: Actually, I have the rooms.

4 Hold on.

5 MR. EISNER: Okay.

6 MR. STEPHENS: The week of the 23rd through

7 26th is the CSA Standards week in Cleveland.

8 MS. BARHYDT: What were the dates?

9 MR. STEPHENS: The 23rd through the 26th. So

10 --

11 MALE SPEAKER: Of September?

12 MR. STEPHENS: Yes.

13 MR. THARP: Yes. We had already booked

14 September 26th. Is that right?

15 MS. BARHYDT: Yes.

16 MR. THARP: Actually, I would mark that the

17 25th and the 26th.

18 MS. MEYERS: No. The 25th is --

19 MALE SPEAKER: Government Affairs Committee.

20 MS. BARHYDT: Government Affairs. I had the

21 26th marked.

22 MR. AMRANE: The 26th is on the calendar.
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1 MR. EISNER: What dates do you have that we

2 might be able to do?

3 MS. BARHYDT: So the nice room over in

4 Forrestal is available the 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 16th,

5 and 20th.

6 MR. EISNER: The 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 16th,

7 and 20th? And what day of the week is the third?

8 MR. HON: The 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th is a holiday

9 week.

10 MALE SPEAKER: The 3rd is a Tuesday.

11 MS. MEYERS: Tuesday. Thursday after Labor

12 Day.

13 MR. EISNER: Would that week be out

14 completely or would the 5th and the 6th, Thursday and

15 Friday?

16 MR. THARP: I think the 3rd and 4th there is

17 going to be a potential AHRI 210/240 rewrite. That's

18 the tentative date for that.

19 MR. MYERS: Could that be adjusted to make

20 room for this group?

21 MS. MEYERS: Since most people have the 26th

22 on their calendars, can we have it at an alternate
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1 location?

2 MS. BARHYDT: On the 25th?

3 MS. MEYERS: On the 26th.

4 MS. BARHYDT: We have the room reserved on

5 the 26th.

6 MS. MEYERS: Oh. Okay.

7 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. That was already booked

8 to us. This is --

9 MR. EISNER: But not on the 25th or the 27th.

10 MS. BARHYDT: The 27th will be a Friday.

11 MS. MEYERS: The 27th I will not be here.

12 MS. BARHYDT: The 25th if we got another, a

13 different room. I only have the availability of that

14 room.

15 MR. EISNER: Let me ask this again. Maybe we

16 should give ourselves until tomorrow to finalize this.

17 Maybe some of the people who have Washington

18 headquarters can look at whether they have got a room

19 that is available.

20 MR. THARP: Can AHRI do a link and everybody

21 reply tonight?

22 MR. AMRANE: They can do a link.
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1 MS. BARHYDT: Wait. So the 25th won't work?

2 Okay.

3 MS. MEYERS: We've got the 26th.

4 MALE SPEAKER: What about the 27th?

5 MS. MEYERS: But Laura can't get the 27th.

6 (Simultaneous discussion.)

7 MS. MEYERS: I could --

8 MR. EISNER: Can everybody do the 25th and

9 26th or did I hear somebody had a problem with --

10 MR. AMRANE: That will not work for AHRI

11 folks.

12 MR. EISNER: What about earlier dates in

13 September? Is there a week? Like Labor Day week is

14 not good. What about the second week? What is the

15 Monday on the second week?

16 MS. DANE: The 9th.

17 MR. EISNER: All right. The 9th through the

18 end of the week?

19 MS. BARHYDT: Can anybody do the 9th through

20 the 11th?

21 MR. EISNER: Okay. The 9th through the 11th?

22 MS. BARHYDT: We will try and find a room.
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1 And if not, we will probably ask for --

2 MS. MEYERS: Yes. The 10th several of us are

3 --

4 MS. BARHYDT: -- assistance in helping find

5 rooms.

6 MR. STANONIK: The 10th is the URC.

7 MS. MEYERS: Yes. So several of us are busy

8 on the 10th but the 11th. So the 11th would be --

9 MS. BARHYDT: The 11th, 12th, 13th.

10 MS. MEYERS: The 13th would be awesome.

11 MR. WHITWELL: Not the 13th.

12 MR. EISNER: Because it is so hard to find

13 dates in September, if we could do three days, would

14 that be okay?

15 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. We'll figure something

16 out.

17 MR. EISNER: All right. Let's work on it

18 overnight and see what we can do tomorrow. Pardon?

19 MR. MYERS: The week of the 16th.

20 MS. MEYERS: That's --

21 MR. MYERS: The 17th, 18th, and 19th is a CEE

22 --
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1 MS. MEYERS: -- CEE conference in Atlanta.

2 MS. BARHYDT: Where is that?

3 MS. MEYERS: Atlanta.

4 MS. BARHYDT: So I think I will mention that

5 AHRI was going to be meeting possibly the 3rd and 4th.

6 MR. AMRANE: That was just Rusty.

7 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Just Rusty.

8 MR. THARP: Ashley Armstrong is coming to

9 that, though.

10 MS. BARHYDT: I was going to say the 5th and

11 6th and save you a trip.

12 MR. MYERS: Did I hear 4, 5, and 6? I think

13 we were here.

14 MR. EISNER: What about more days the end of

15 August also if we're already going to be here -- what

16 is it? -- the 25th and 26th?

17 MS. MEYERS: We have the 26th. All right?

18 Are we talking about --

19 MS. BARHYDT: He's talking about August.

20 MR. EISNER: August. I mean, could we meet

21 more days?

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Oh. Can you add more to
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1 that?

2 MR. EISNER: Can we add another day to that?

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: What are we expecting?

4 MR. EISNER: Well, we were expecting you to

5 have a draft of the rule for everybody to look at

6 either the end of August or very early September.

7 MS. BARHYDT: What were the dates? The --

8 MR. EISNER: I forget.

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: August 26th and 27th.

10 MALE SPEAKER: Sometime the week of the 29th.

11 MR. EISNER: Of August?

12 MALE SPEAKER: Yes.

13 MS. MEYERS: Yes, but you had a problem --

14 MR. EISNER: I'm out. I'm out from a week

15 from this Thursday. I'm out for a week, whatever dates

16 those are.

17 MS. BARHYDT: So August is available and the

18 4th all around. Are the 19th, 20th, 23rd, 29th, and

19 30th?

20 MS. MEYERS: Nineteenth, 20th?

21 MS. BARHYDT: Nineteen, 20, 23, 29, and 30.

22 MR. EISNER: You will probably get a lot of
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1 rooms on the Hill. Nobody is going to be there.

2 MR. SACHS: Neil is out. Several of the rest

3 of us are out for vacations the week of the 19th

4 through 23rd.

5 MS. BARHYDT: Exactly.

6 MS. MEYERS: So is the proposal to meet the

7 26th, the 27th, and then the 29th?

8 MR. EISNER: What day of the week is the

9 26th?

10 MS. HOOTMAN: Monday, Monday-Tuesday. Then

11 skip Wednesday. Then do the 29th.

12 MR. SACHS: I'd rather do 27, 29, and 30.

13 MS. BARHYDT: What's wrong with the 28th?

14 MS. MEYERS: You said you didn't have a room.

15 MS. BARHYDT: Oh. Well, we can try.

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, worst case scenario,

17 we can always do this.

18 MS. MEYERS: That's fine with me. The 28th

19 is great.

20 (Simultaneous discussion.)

21 MR. EISNER: All right. So spend some time

22 overnight seeing what is available.
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1 MS. BARHYDT: Yes.

2 MR. EISNER: All right.

3 MS. BARHYDT: So it sounds like no dates work

4 all the way around the table.

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: When is ASRAC?

6 MS. MEYERS: What happened to the September

7 11th?

8 MS. HOOTMAN: Why can't we do the first week

9 in September?

10 MS. BARHYDT: Labor Day.

11 MR. MYERS: Labor Day is Monday.

12 (Simultaneous discussion.)

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Do you want to do a poll and

14 we'll just go from there?

15 (Chorus of "Yes.")

16 MS. MEYERS: Was the 11th a problem for some

17 people?

18 MR. EISNER: The 11th of September?

19 MS. BARHYDT: I have no idea.

20 MR. EISNER: No?

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Do we need two days? Do we

22 need like more regular multiple --
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1 MS. BARHYDT: I hate to do three days.

2 MR. HURST: If we did the whole week of the

3 26th, it would force us to operate.

4 (Simultaneous discussion.)

5 MR. EISNER: We can go from 8:00 in the

6 morning until 6:00 at night?

7 MS. BARHYDT: There you go.

8 MS. MEYERS: What is your suggestion?

9 MR. HURST: The week of the 26th through the

10 30th.

11 FEMALE SPEAKER: Five days? We really like

12 working together.

13 FEMALE SPEAKER: Do you like working on

14 Saturday and Sunday?

15 MR. HURST: No. I'm talking August.

16 MR. EISNER: What week?

17 MS. BARHYDT: Oh, in August. Okay.

18 MR. HURST: August 26th through 28th. We're

19 already here. Just extend it and get it done unless

20 you all just love being --

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: The outstanding issues,

22 really, can you guys answer them by then?
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1 MS. DANE: There is a phone call arranged on,

2 I want to say, the 21st. So, I mean, CRE will be

3 talking.

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay.

5 MS. DANE: I can't speak for the other

6 groups.

7 MR. MYERS: Karim had indicated earlier it

8 might take more than a month to get --

9 MR. AMRANE: I mean, it is simple. If you

10 accept the AHRI definition, we can do it right away.

11 MR. AMRANE: But you don't like the AHRI

12 definition.

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think what we're telling

14 you is we have no necessarily issues with it to the

15 extent we understand what it is.

16 MR. TRITSIS: It won't take much time for us

17 to explain to you.

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: What does it mean? Sorry.

19 Like numbers-wise, what does it mean? How many

20 numbers?

21 MR. TRITSIS: I'll give you over -- for the

22 regulated commercial products, that's over 650 tests --
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1 okay? -- right now that -- probably more.

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. I mean, I think that's

3 what we're asking, though. If you guys want to at the

4 next meeting present this is the AHRI -- this is what

5 these definitions translate to in terms of products,

6 number of manufacturers or number of -- different

7 things that we have been talking about --

8 MR. HURST: Can I see it? Isn't there just

9 kind of an educational meeting where you guys

10 understand what it is they do today? I mean --

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: We need to be able to write a

12 definition in regs that cover it across the board

13 regardless.

14 MR. HURST: Right.

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, even if we say, "The

16 AHRI program is great," what does that mean, though?

17 MR. HURST: You have to understand.

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.

19 MR. HURST: So an educational session where

20 you understand kind of the metrics around the program

21 --

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Absolutely.
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1 MR. HURST: -- what is involved in it. I

2 don't think that's a 30-person meeting or if it's a --

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, that's up to you

4 guys. I guarantee there are probably people in the room

5 that want to hear it. And you can elect to come in

6 person or not. But I think that's where we're -- I

7 mean, if that is what you want us to do, if that is the

8 next step, then

9 --

10 MR. AMRANE: That's fine. We can prepare

11 something like that. But at the same time, if DOE is

12 thinking of one definition for everything --

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: No, no. It can be product14 specific. I don't think we have said that; right? I

15 think we are open. It's just, what does that mean by

16 "product-safe"? I mean, what does it mean for CRE?

17 What does it mean for -- and how do we translate that

18 to a small manufacturer or someone that doesn't

19 participate in AHRI but might want to and somebody --

20 you see? I mean, that's where we're looking. We have

21 to be straight across the board. They may be product22 specific definitions or case-specific, but it has to be
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1 applicable to all. In other words, we have to be able

2 to draw a line in the sand and say, "They have met it.

3 They have not," one way or the other.

4 MR. AMRANE: Yes. It will be done.

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: So we see just trying to -- I

6 mean, we see the percentage, and we see what is in your

7 manuals. And we appreciate you sending all of that

8 stuff out, but what does that mean in real terms?

9 MR. HON: Does Neil have to be at this one?

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's up to Neil.

11 MR. EISNER: It's more up to the group.

12 MS. BARHYDT: It's up to you guys.

13 MR. HON: Yes. If not, we can go on the week

14 of the 21st, the 19th through the 23rd.

15 MS. MEYERS: Of August?

16 MR. HON: Yes.

17 MS. MEYERS: That's going to be a really

18 expensive ticket.

19 MALE SPEAKER: I would a lot rather do it the

20 26th.

21 MR. EISNER: I think some other people said

22 they were out that week also.
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1 MR. SACHS: I'm out that week.

2 MALE SPEAKER: Me, too.

3 MS. MEYERS: The week of the 26th?

4 MR. EISNER: Then it's unanimous.

5 MS. BARHYDT: I mean, we could add the 28th.

6 MALE SPEAKER: August?

7 MS. MEYERS: Of August or September?

8 MS. BARHYDT: August. Sorry. Let's do that

9 and make 9/11 a fallback date.

10 MR. EISNER: We could start later that day or

11 I could probably be here by 11:30 or 12:00.

12 MR. MYERS: Should we add the 29th as well?

13 MR. EISNER: I can do the whole rest of the

14 week. I can do the whole week except for that morning.

15 MS. BARHYDT: So do you want to put September

16 11th possibility on the schedule as well?

17 FEMALE SPEAKER: I think we should. That

18 would be good.

19 MS. BARHYDT: Just one day? Do you want to

20 fly in for one day?

21 FEMALE SPEAKER: I'll already be here.

22 (Simultaneous discussion.)
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: So 26th through 29th, 11th

2 through 13th?

3 MR. WHITWELL: I can probably --

4 MS. MEYERS: I can't do the 13th.

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Can your other half come?

6 MR. WHITWELL: I don't know.

7 MS. MEYERS: I can do 11th, 12th, but not the

8 13th.

9 MR. WHITWELL: Let's ask him.

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: He has got a meeting on the

11 10th, too. He has to be out.

12 MS. MEYERS: He's got a meeting on the 10th,

13 too.

14 MR. WHITWELL: He has a meeting on the 12th?

15 MALE SPEAKER: Yes.

16 MR. WHITWELL: Yes.

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. So we should probably

18 wait until -- well, you can be here. I have to be at

19 the other --

20 MS. MEYERS: But you're saying we should

21 avoid --

22 MALE SPEAKER: We can come up with one day,
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1 though.

2 MS. MEYERS: So on the 12th, the full ASRAC

3 meeting that is happening, is it an all-day meeting?

4 And would it be something where the second half of the

5 day we could give them a committee?

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. You are ASRAC.

7 MS. BARHYDT: We are the reason for the

8 meeting, I think.

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: No.

10 MS. BARHYDT: No?

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: No. You're not the only

12 reason. You are part of the reason.

13 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: You are on the agenda. It is

15 not an all-day thing. It is going to be half-day, 1:00

16 to 5:00. There is a variety of issues. And

17 technically your ASRAC members are supposed to brief

18 the ASRAC committee. Well, you are his --

19 MR. WHITWELL: I have been talking to him.

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: So Manny (ph) is the one who

21 is supposed to brief the ASRAC committee.

22 MS. MEYERS: So if we did the 11th and then -
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1 -

2 MS. BARHYDT: The morning of the 12th?

3 MS. MEYERS: -- 8:00 to 12:00 on the 12th.

4 MS. BARHYDT: And for those who wanted to

5 stay and participate in the briefing to the full ASRAC

6 committee, you could stay and join them at 1:00.

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Now, that being said,

8 typically we would have provided the materials that

9 this Committee has voted out to ASRAC prior to the

10 11th. That is not to stop progress, but that is so

11 that ASRAC can vote on the 12th for DOE to go ahead and

12 take action. So I would recommend the 26th, the 27th,

13 and whatever other days. Push as much through as you

14 can, recognizing that there are outstanding issues, you

15 are making great progress. Keep it going but vote out

16 as much as possible at that point so that some of what

17 you need, especially the dates and the certs and the

18 basic models and the guidance issues and anything we

19 have can go ahead and get reviewed by ASRAC and voted

20 on at that meeting, instead of having to set up another

21 ASRAC meeting afterwards.

22 MR. BAUMAN: Are you talking about the 9th-
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1 10th of September?

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Typically, we send materials

3 about a week in advance. That is not to say they have

4 to be sent a week in advance, although I'm sure they

5 would appreciate them depending on how detailed, you

6 know, the package is going to be.

7 MR. EISNER: So what are we talking about

8 now? This is the 10th and 11th? The 9th and 10th?

9 Three days?

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: So let's talk about the 26th11 27th is a definite. Are we doing the 28th?

12 MR. EISNER: If everybody wants to do the

13 28th and they want to do the whole week, I will see if

14 I can change that meeting, but right now I have a

15 problem in the morning changing the appointment. I can

16 call, but that is going to be very hard unless there

17 are some openings.

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: So we will do the 28th. And

19 if you can make it, Neil, great, but if you can't,

20 that's okay, too.

21 MR. MYERS: Earlier I heard --

22 MS. BARHYDT: Does everybody agree with that?
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1 MR. MYERS: -- the acclimation around the

2 table was the 29th.

3 MS. HOOTMAN: I am trying to think flight4 wise here. What are we saying? We would do it --

5 FEMALE SPEAKER: Well, we had also talked

6 about potentially the 29th. How many days --

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: All four days?

8 MR. EISNER: Yes.

9 MALE SPEAKER: Way too much.

10 MR. HON: I'm tired of being in airports.

11 MS. HOOTMAN: I don't like you guys that

12 much.

13 (Simultaneous discussion.)

14 MALE SPEAKER: Some of us are flying halfway

15 across the country.

16 MS. HOOTMAN: Exactly.

17 MR. EISNER: How many people object to doing

18 four days? Let's take a vote.

19 MR. DOPPEL: If you object, raise your hand.

20 MR. EISNER: To doing four days?

21 MS. HOOTMAN: Four? I'll do three.

22 MR. EISNER: Three is -- are you the third
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1 one saying no? Okay. We've got three saying no.

2 MS. HOOTMAN: Three saying no to four days?

3 MR. EISNER: Three saying no to four days.

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't think we ever have

5 this for days.

6 MR. FLY: Simple majority?

7 MR. EISNER: I think we're getting to the

8 point where people want to be here.

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.

10 MR. EISNER: They feel strongly about it.

11 MR. DOPPEL: We have a fourth one on that.

12 MR. EISNER: Oh, we have a fourth. Okay. So

13 the 26th through the 29th of September.

14 MR. DOPPEL: Twenty-eighth.

15 MR. EISNER: Twenty-sixth through 28th.

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I would say we keep the

17 29th only because if Neil can come the 29th, then you

18 can vote out any issues on the 28th. If those that

19 want to go home on the 28th go home on the 28th, then

20 call in or whatever --

21 MR. WHITWELL: The issue is spending four

22 days on this because, I mean, my company is in the
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1 middle of our planning process.

2 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes.

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: I know. So it's more up to

4 you. Do you want to come back in September?

5 MR. WHITWELL: Yes.

6 MR. AMRANE: We will be done by --

7 MR. EISNER: So what dates are we --

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Or is it just incentive to

9 get done by the 28th?

10 MR. HURST: September we had the 11th; right?

11 So no. I'm sorry. Yes.

12 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. September we have the

13 11th and the morning of the 12th.

14 MR. WHITWELL: So I could call in the -- I

15 have an appointment first thing on Monday, or on the

16 11th. I have to be out. I could call in the rest of

17 the day. The 12th I have something just before noon.

18 So I would have to call in those two days and miss some

19 of it, then.

20 MR. STANONIK: You could send John.

21 MR. WHITWELL: John will be here, I guess;

22 right? He'll be here on the --
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: He's supposed to be here on

2 the 12th.

3 MR. WHITWELL: On the 12th, yes.

4 MS. MEYERS: He's supposed to be here on the

5 10th.

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Oh, this is good for him.

7 MR. WHITWELL: Yes, it's good for John.

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Somebody just let him know

9 his schedule, please.

10 MR. HURST: All in favor of --

11 MR. WHITWELL: Aye.

12 MR. SACHS: Be careful what you ask for.

13 MR. WHITWELL: I hope he's not on the phone.

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Whether he will or not.

15 (Simultaneous discussion.)

16 MR. STANONIK: This is Frank. Given that --

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. I think that, too.

18 MR. EISNER: Do we have agreement on --

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: Twenty-sixth, 27th, 28th.

20 MR. EISNER: -- on September --

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Tenth, 11th, 12th?

22 MR. EISNER: No. I thought people said --
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1 MR. STANONIK: Eleventh, 12th.

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Eleventh, 12th. Okay.

3 MR. STANONIK: Eleventh, morning of the 12th.

4 MALE SPEAKER: I can't make the 11th.

5 MR. SACHS: Well, that makes it easier.

6 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers. What is it

7 that we're trying to accomplish with the 11th? It's

8 the day before ASRAC. We will have wrung out three

9 more days. If we're going to use the AHRI definitions

10 and grab something around that, then maybe we can

11 finish. But if we're not able to use, we find that

12 we're not able to use, the AHRI, there needs to be more

13 time to get more information from AHRI members before

14 we pile back into this. I am just wondering, is there

15 really a need for the day before ASRAC to be the next

16 meeting after the 28th.

17 MS. BARHYDT: It was the day that people were

18 available. And there are still a lot of issues to

19 discuss.

20 MR. HON: I think we will fill them.

21 MS. BARHYDT: I do, too.

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, even if we don't do,
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1 you know, percentage of models, we need to talk about

2 how you choose models, what type of information --

3 MS. BARHYDT: Exactly. There's still a lot.

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- when you send information,

5 when DOE gets notified, what happens. There's a lot of

6 issues outside of just the percentage that we need to

7 cycle through.

8 MS. HOOTMAN: What happens with these models

9 in --

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: We might all agree and blow

11 through it in an hour, but something tells me that just

12 hasn't happened yet. We will eventually agree, though.

13 MR. MYERS: If we're going to make another

14 trip to D.C. from all points, didn't we want to try and

15 get at least two days in: the 10th and the 11th?

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think that's what we said;

17 right?

18 MS. BARHYDT: No. The 11th and 12th. People

19 said they couldn't do 10.

20 MR. MYERS: So a day and a half since the --

21 (Simultaneous discussion.)

22 MR. EISNER: As I understand it, people have
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1 serious problems with the 10th and they have problems

2 with the 13th. So it can only be 11 and a half a day

3 on the 12th. Is that true? I mean, there is another

4 meeting on the 10th. I am not sure what the problem is

5 with the 13th.

6 (Simultaneous discussion.)

7 MR. HURST: Could we do a full day on the

8 12th?

9 MR. EISNER: Why a half a day on the 12th?

10 MR. WHITWELL: Maybe John can be here.

11 MR. EISNER: All right. All right.

12 Everybody is getting unruly. I'm going to have to

13 start fining people.

14 MR. WHITWELL: I'll tell John he's got to be

15 here.

16 MS. MEYERS: What I thought was that some of

17 us may want to attend the ASRAC meeting, where they're

18 going to be talking so if they had a question we could

19 answer.

20 MR. WHITWELL: So we would really be here for

21 two days. We just wouldn't be in this --

22 MS. MEYERS: That was the thought process.
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1 Now, I don't know whether --

2 MS. BARHYDT: We don't have to go. We could

3 meet all day.

4 MR. HURST: Who out of this group would have

5 to be at the other meeting, would have to be?

6 FEMALE SPEAKER: Ashley.

7 MR. HURST: Ashley?

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: I do.

9 MS. MEYERS: Me.

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: Me and Manny have to be

11 there.

12 MR. EISNER: But how long is the ASRAC

13 meeting for?

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Four hours, but this is --

15 MR. EISNER: It's just in the afternoon?

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: This is only a small portion

17 of the agenda.

18 MS. MEYERS: So that's a good point. Maybe

19 we could move this to the first of their agenda.

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's what we did last time.

21 MS. MEYERS: And then if we had other issues

22 to work on, then we could then leave and go work on
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1 them. And plan on being here until 5:00 that day.

2 MR. HURST: Maybe 1:00 or 2:00 and then we're

3 back finishing up whatever.

4 MR. EISNER: Yes. We could take lunch from

5 1:00 to 2:00. You guys just do without lunch.

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: I've got to be there, no

7 matter what. So whatever you guys want to do.

8 MR. MYERS: Have we lost too many to do the

9 10th as well?

10 MR. HURST: Yes.

11 MS. MEYERS: Yes.

12 MR. HURST: Who won't be here on the 10th?

13 (Hands raised.)

14 MR. HURST: I won't.

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: I won't. Rheem won't. John

16 won't.

17 MR. HURST: Rusty.

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Rusty won't.

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's the HRI guys.

20 MR. EISNER: All right. So go with the 11th

21 and a full day on the 12th of September?

22 MR. HURST: Yes.
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1 MR. HON: How long do we -- when do we

2 adjourn?

3 MS. BARHYDT: The 11th will be 6:00 o'clock.

4 The 12th will be 3:00 unless you guys want to go a full

5 day. You will want to go a full day. I mean, people

6 are talking about a full day, but --

7 MR. HON: I just need to know for flights.

8 MS. BARHYDT: I understand that.

9 MS. MEYERS: Could we start earlier on the

10 11th or does that really mess up a lot of people?

11 MS. BARHYDT: 8:00?

12 MR. EISNER: A lot of people said they were

13 coming in on one day and going home early on the other

14 day.

15 MR. HURST: Is the logic starting at 10:00 so

16 people can fly in that day?

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.

18 MR. EISNER: That was the understanding.

19 MR. HURST: Some of us, that doesn't really -

20 - I mean, I come here and I sit in the hotel until

21 9:30.

22 MS. MEYERS: This is the last meeting. We
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1 can make an exception and start at 8:00 that day, I

2 guess.

3 MR. HURST: I could because I'm here anyway.

4 You can't get from the middle of the country here for

5 --

6 MR. EISNER: Do we want to go 8:00 to 6:00

7 both days.

8 MS. HOOTMAN: I'm not the only one. Bob and

9 Jeff.

10 MR. WHITWELL: I can't make it. I won't be

11 here the 11th in the morning anyway.

12 MS. HOOTMAN: Oh, man.

13 MS. BARHYDT: So 8:00 to 6:00 both days?

14 MR. EISNER: Is that okay?

15 MS. MEYERS: Yes.

16 MR. EISNER: Anybody object to that?

17 MR. WHITWELL: So we're talking the 11th and

18 12th?

19 MR. EISNER: Eleventh to 12th, 8:00 --

20 (Simultaneous discussion.)

21 MR. WHITWELL: 8:00 to 6:00?

22 MR. MYERS: 8:00 to 5:00 will still allow --
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1 (Simultaneous discussion.)

2 MR. STANONIK: You won't miss much the last

3 hour.

4 MS. MEYERS: Exactly.

5 MR. EISNER: Okay. Are we all in agreement?

6 We got a few more days out of this? Maybe it will be

7 enough to get through all of it because we get into --

8 MS. BARHYDT: We have four more days.

9 MR. EISNER: Four more days.

10 MS. BARHYDT: Because we added the 28th and

11 29th and the 11th and 12th.

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: We added the 29th?

13 MS. BARHYDT: Oh, I thought we did.

14 MR. BALLO: What hours are we meeting in

15 August, that three-day stretch? Is it 8:00 to 6:00 or

16 --

17 MS. BARHYDT: At least on the middle days.

18 MS. HOOTMAN: When you say, "middle days,"

19 what do you mean?

20 MR. EISNER: Well, do you want to fly in late

21 on the 26th, start at 10:00 on the 26th, and go until

22 6:00 every day of the week, start 8:00, and make the
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1 others 8:00 to 6:00 also, 10:00 to 6:00 the first day?

2 MR. KOJAK: What dates are --

3 MR. EISNER: August the 26th to the 28th. Do

4 we want to go from 8:00 to 6:00 each day that we're

5 here in August, the end of August, or do we want to

6 make it 10:00 to 6:00 the first day?

7 MR. WHITWELL: 10:00 to 6:00 the first day

8 MR. HURST: 10:00 to 6:00.

9 MR. WHITWELL: 10:00 to 6:00 the first day,

10 yes.

11 MR. HURST: And then 8:30 to 6:00.

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: 8:30?

13 MR. EISNER: 8:30.

14 (Simultaneous discussion.)

15 MR. EISNER: All right. So September also

16 make it 8:30 to 6:00?

17 MALE SPEAKER: 8:00 to 6:00.

18 MS. MEYERS: See, now that messes up --

19 MR. EISNER: And then dinner at John's house?

20 MR. CYMBALSKY: Only one. I'm eating out.

21 MR. EISNER: All right. So here's what I've

22 got: August the 26th to the 28th, first day 10:00 to
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1 6:00, the next two days 8:30 to 6:00; September 11th

2 through the 12th, both days will be 8:30 to 6:00.

3 MS. BARHYDT: And are we meeting the 29th or

4 not?

5 MALE SPEAKER: No.

6 MS. BARHYDT: No?

7 MR. EISNER: No. They didn't want to do four

8 days.

9 MS. BARHYDT: Oh, that's right.

10 MALE SPEAKER: The 11th is 8:00 to 6:00?

11 MS. MEYERS: So we'll go out and correct our

12 calendars and all that kind of stuff.

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Pretty please?

14 MS. MEYERS: Please? If you would just get

15 us the Outlook calendar update, that will --

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: And keep in mind that also

17 the HVAC manufacturers will see a Doodle poll for a

18 motors meeting.

19 MS. MEYERS: Okay. And a boiler meeting.

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: A boiler webinar. We need to

21 talk through some issues for boilers before they --

22 MS. MEYERS: I'm a little --
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. A boiler webinar?

2 Okay.

3 MS. MEYERS: I'm a little sketchy on that

4 one.

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Like an hour or so? It won't

6 take long. Well, I have hope.

7 (Simultaneous discussion.)

8 MR. EISNER: Here's my suggestion. Some

9 people are questioning whether they can get flights out

10 of here the night when we go to 6:00. So why don't we

11 leave it at 6:00.

12 MS. HOOTMAN: There's a lot of us who can't

13 get out of here.

14 MR. EISNER: Check flights. See what is the

15 latest flight you can get on? We can always adjust and

16 then divide or something like that if we have to.

17 MR. WHITWELL: I have a 6:40 or a 10:40.

18 MR. EISNER: So we can go with 9:00. We just

19 keep --

20 MR. HURST: Suck it up.

21 MR. WHITWELL: The last time on my 6:40

22 flight, I went to Philadelphia. Then they sent me back
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1 here to Washington to fly from here to Syracuse on the

2 10:40 that left at 12:00 o'clock midnight.

3 MR. HURST: We're going to start handing out

4 ASRAC ribbons.

5 MR. WHITWELL: Yes.

6 MR. EISNER: All right. Frank?

7 MR. MYERS: Did you end up adding a day to

8 the 26th?

9 MR. WHITWELL: I got a couple of exercise --

10 MR. EISNER: August 26th, '7th, and 28th.

11 MR. MYERS: You're talking about September

12 the 26th?

13 MS. MEYERS: No.

14 MR. EISNER: No.

15 MS. MEYERS: We did not.

16 MR. EISNER: Because we couldn't do the day

17 before and we couldn't do the day after. All we could

18 do was one day at the end of September.

19 MR. MYERS: I would certainly love to take a

20 look at perhaps the first week of October or something

21 where we can get in more than one day.

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: I just cancelled the 26th for
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1 now. And if we need to pick up an October date we will

2 at next time's meeting.

3 MS. BARHYDT: It's on the calendar. It's

4 been on the calendar. I mean, you can always call us.

5 MR. MYERS: It's just that it's one day.

6 (Simultaneous discussion.)

7 MR. EISNER: Okay. Any more on time and

8 dates and everything?

9 MR. KOJAK: So between the 12th and the 26th,

10 we have no meeting?

11 MS. BARHYDT: Right.

12 MR. EISNER: So that one-day meeting on the

13 26th of September we're going to leave open for at

14 least a one-day meeting?

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: I propose not to, but --

16 MR. HON: It's after ASRAC. So what's the

17 difference?

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: I was going to say I would

19 pick a date where you -- if the status is there are

20 still a lot of issues, I would pick a different date

21 where you can come for multiple days, even if it moves

22 to October. I mean, at that point, ASRAC has already
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1 met. You are going to get the extension to keep

2 moving. You might as well

3 MR. EISNER: And we're talking about,

4 remember, also next week trying to set up a meeting

5 with the motor manufacturers.

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. I've got that. We'll

7 send out the dutiful --

8 MR. FLY: So you said we're not meeting in --

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: No. The 26th is --

10 MR. FLY: The 26th of September.

11 MS. MEYERS: That's the tentative date that

12 we voted that we --

13 MR. BALLO: Jeremiah, I hope you've got this

14 all straight.

15 MR. EISNER: Even if he doesn't, we have to

16 live with whatever he sends out.

17 MR. BALLO: We need an email tonight.

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Don't worry. The transcript

19 has it.

20 MR. BALLO: When is that coming out?

21 MR. EISNER: All right. Back to substance.

22 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So --
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: I thought we were done.

2 MR. WHITWELL: I'm ready to go until 9:00

3 o'clock.

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: You and Laura can go until

5 9:00 o'clock.

6 MS. BARHYDT: Get this done.

7 MALE SPEAKER: You've got a flight at 10:40.

8 MR. WHITWELL: Yes, 10:40, maybe midnight.

9 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So we're going to hold

10 off on how much testing. Let's talk about how units

11 are actually selected for testing.

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, this is --

13 MS. BARHYDT: And if you look at -- actually,

14 go to the next slide down, that one, yes.

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, it's different

16 concepts, though.

17 MS. BARHYDT: I know they are, but I think

18 this one makes a lot more sense to discuss first.

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: Go ahead.

20 MS. BARHYDT: So where should the units be

21 obtained for testing? Again, we're talking about built

22 to stock or in stock.
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1 MR. EISNER: Just to be clear, we're talking

2 about verification.

3 MS. BARHYDT: Verification testing.

4 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, AHRI. If

5 we're talking verification testing, it seems to me the

6 first choice should be from the manufacturer, whether

7 it's from their stock or what they just built two hours

8 ago or whatever, but everything else is just an

9 unnecessary complication, including cost.

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: So there could be a

11 hierarchy; right? I mean, it could be that, you know,

12 this is your first priority. You should get it from

13 here. If you can't get it from here, you get it from

14 here. If you can't get it from there, you get it from

15 there.

16 MR. BALLO: What does it mean "if you can't

17 get it"?

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's not available.

19 MR. THARP: That's basically the way the

20 program works.

21 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. So let me describe

22 something that might happen. An HRI program when we
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1 have a built- to-order, I mean, a product for stock, we

2 have it in various stocking locations. We might

3 literally have it in the discontinued and it's no

4 longer made it to manufacture but it's out there in

5 inventory. So it could be selected.

6 So she's right. You go to the manufacturer.

7 And we're not making it anymore, but we'll tell you

8 that we have it in XYZ warehouse in wherever that is.

9 So you'd have to go out and get it from the warehouse

10 if it's still available, you know, in that case or

11 discontinues.

12 Some of those warehouses are company-owned.

13 Some are independent distribution in my case.

14 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. One of

15 the things that I think we need to resolve is how we

16 define discontinued product versus obsolete products

17 because we can no longer be in manufacturing,

18 manufacturing the products, but they're still somewhere

19 in our supply chain. So we need to have a good

20 understanding of that.

21 MS. HOOTMAN: It's a good point.

22 MR. THARP: And that's a good point because
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1 in AHRI, as long as the manufacturer still considers

2 it's in their inventory, then it's subject to

3 verification.

4 MS. HOOTMAN: It's still subject to

5 verification.

6 MR. THARP: Right.

7 MS. HOOTMAN: It's considered a discontinued.

8 MR. THARP: Right.

9 MS. HOOTMAN: We discontinued the product

10 line, but we still have stuff out in inventory.

11 MR. THARP: And there is a default of once

12 you tell HRI you're no longer producing it, it's

13 available for 12 months. And then the rating goes away

14 --

15 MS. HOOTMAN: Right.

16 MR. THARP: -- unless you tell me --

17 MALE SPEAKER: How about the ratings?

18 MR. THARP: The rating will always be

19 available, but it won't be verified. You cannot get an

20 AHRI certificate on a product that has been removed

21 from the directory.

22 MS. BARHYDT: So DOE's definition of
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1 discontinued is that he manufacturer is no longer

2 making it and it is no longer in stock with the

3 manufacturer or the private labeler.

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: In their possession.

5 MS. BARHYDT: In their possession. So there

6 may be stuff, plenty of stuff, out in the marketplace,

7 although I don't know how much that would happen with

8 these products, but it's no longer under the control of

9 the manufacturer, basically. So if you no longer have

10 any units and you are no longer making it, as far as

11 DOE is concerned, it is discontinued.

12 MS. HOOTMAN: And I would say that's an

13 obsolete --

14 MR. KLEISS: That is terminology. That is

15 not 100 percent true that -- in discontinuing a product

16 line, sometimes we still have some residual inventory

17 in stock.

18 MS. BARHYDT: And if you are offering it for

19 sale, it is not discontinued under DOE's definition.

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct.

21 MR. AMRANE: Same as HRI.

22 MS. BARHYDT: My understanding is that it is
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1 not the same as HRI.

2 MR. STANONIK: It is not. Discontinued just

3 means you won't make it.

4 MR. AMRANE: You won't make any more.

5 MR. STANONIK: Right. You may have some, but

6 that --

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. We have different

8 definitions here. We know we have different

9 definitions.

10 MR. STEPHENS: Could we include your

11 definition in this just so that --

12 MS. BARHYDT: So people can see it?

13 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes.

14 MR. STEPHENS: Put it on the board so that

15 everyone has that.

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Do the definition.

17 MS. BARHYDT: Manufacturer or private

18 labeling. Just include it.

19 MR. STEPHENS: So how do you define no longer

20 in manufacture or private labeler stock? Because

21 several manufacturers have warehouses across the

22 country. If it's --
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Is it your warehouse? Is it

2 your own to your facility?

3 MR. STEPHENS: Some manufacturers, yes; some

4 manufacturers, no.

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: So that answer is different

6 depending on yes or no.

7 MR. STEPHENS: Okay. So if there is one left

8 and it's in southern California and the manufacturer's

9 location is in northern Minn., do we still have to ship

10 it back?

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Do you own the distribution

12 location?

13 MR. HON: Do you still own product?

14 MS. BARHYDT: So the definition is the

15 manufacturer is no longer making it and it is no longer

16 being offered for sale by the manufacturer or private

17 labeler.

18 MS. MEYERS: So how does DOE consider a

19 product that the manufacturer is no longer making but

20 they still have it in stock.

21 MS. BARHYDT: Are you offering it for sale?

22 MR. FLY: Yes.
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1 MS. BARHYDT: It is not discontinued.

2 MR. FLY: And that unit has an economizer on

3 it.

4 MR. SACHS: And it is painted baby blue.

5 MALE SPEAKER: And a coated coil.

6 MR. FLY: And a coated coil.

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's okay. With Rusty's

8 new position on coated coils, you know --

9 MR. BALLO: Just to be clear, though, if DOE

10 or somebody is sort of going through the list of

11 products that are on the list to be verified and if

12 it's known that the manufacturer has stopped production

13 of that model --

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: We wouldn't know.

15 MR. BALLO: -- you wouldn't identify that one

16 as a priority for verification testing.

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, the real answer is we

18 have the term "discontinued." We don't necessarily

19 know when production has stopped. So we could add

20 that. We could add another code and say, "Production

21 has stopped but not discontinued." And so we would

22 then know the differentiation. And odds are, you know,
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1 I don't know what we would target. We don't have, you

2 know --

3 MS. MEYERS: I mean, we have some like old

4 inventory in stock. You know, we may not have built

5 one of these units for years.

6 MR. HURST: We welcome you to buy it and test

7 it.

8 MS. MEYERS: We would love for you to buy it

9 and test it, but it is really discontinued. But, you

10 know, we have old inventory. It's a bigger deal on the

11 residential side, of course, but, you know, you may

12 find something with a date code in our inventory of

13 four years old.

14 MR. FLY: Mark Fly with AAON.

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, the real answer is --

16 MR. FLY: Are we talking verification or

17 assessment testing?

18 MR. EISNER: Verification.

19 MR. FLY: Verification; right? So they

20 wouldn't --

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: We're spot checking, period.

22 Someone is spot-checking it. At the moment, we're not
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1 differentiating it.

2 MR. FLY: Also we were talking about before

3 some sampling.

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right.

5 MS. MEYERS: So I think we need a new code or

6 a new definition for --

7 MS. BARHYDT: Could be.

8 MR. FLY: We're talking about your --

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: You're talking about a

10 verification program, period, whether it's DOE, whether

11 it's done by somebody else, whether it's your own that

12 you're doing that's been approved by DOE. The concept

13 should be the same.

14 MR. SACHS: Ashley, this is Harvey. And my

15 concern would be that some rogue, certainly not present

16 here, decides on getting some complaints from wherever

17 in the market to discontinue a product. You guys want

18 to check it for its efficiency. I would like for you

19 to be able to reach out and grab that product if it is

20 still in commerce.

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: So this does -- well, what do

22 you mean by -- I was going to say this doesn't --
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1 MR. SACHS: This isn't --

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- carry over to -- I mean,

3 if we need to enforce against something, Laura is going

4 to knock on her door.

5 MR. SACHS: So there is a differentiation

6 between verification and enforcement that I --

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's random verification.

8 MR. SACHS: Okay.

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: So what if you don't have a

10 complaint or what if we do?

11 MR. SACHS: Boy, that's two strikeouts today.

12 MS. BARHYDT: So one thing we could do is

13 right now in our certification reports, we have a D for

14 discontinued. We could do -- I don't know -- S for

15 stocked or whatever.

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.

17 MS. HOOTMAN: O for out of production.

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Oh, yes.

19 MS. BARHYDT: O, out of production. I like

20 that. Okay. So we can put an O code in and we could

21 say in the verification program that anything that is O

22 is not subject to the verification program. And, to
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1 address your concern, we could say that anything that

2 is not in a verification program is still subject to

3 assessment testing.

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Assessment testing.

5 MS. BARHYDT: And then the Department could

6 just go get a unit and test it if it's something --

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: If we needed to.

8 MS. BARHYDT: -- if we needed to.

9 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes because you could get in

10 theory --

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: A complaint or whatever.

12 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. And you could get in

13 theory somebody who puts them out there and then two

14 months later says they're all out and keep kind of

15 doing that kind of pattern. And then you would be

16 constantly stuck in not getting there.

17 MS. MEYERS: So to address my issue of old

18 inventory --

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: It would be an O for you. So

20 they wouldn't be subject to verification, but DOE could

21 ask you for one if we wanted to, helping you with --

22 MS. MEYERS: But the issue is like some of
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1 those, so it's an O for me, but you might still ask for

2 it. Well, what if there had been a standard change or

3 a test procedure change or something from when that

4 unit was built to today? So you're going to have to

5 keep track.

6 MS. BARHYDT: So the standard that applies is

7 the standard on date of manufacture.

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.

9 MR. SACHS: Except that there's this odd

10 situation that she's got old stock that she might be

11 able to export that she couldn't --

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Better have a label on it.

13 MR. SACHS: -- commerce and it's past the

14 date.

15 MS. MEYERS: What do you mean I'd better have

16 a label on it?

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Export only.

18 MS. MEYERS: But it may have become an export

19 only because we had an efficiency check.

20 MR. EISNER: Yes.

21 MR. WHITWELL: Well, with this new

22 production, if it was built before the efficiency --
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1 MS. BARHYDT: You can still sell it.

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: All right.

3 MR. SACHS: You sell it until you sell it.

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. You can sell --

5 MS. BARHYDT: Sure.

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- the inventory.

7 MR. EISNER: Right. Do it before the

8 standard change.

9 MS. MEYERS: It's regional standards.

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: We don't talk about that.

11 MR. WHITWELL: We don't have those in

12 commercial --

13 MR. EISNER: That's in commercial.

14 MR. WHITWELL: -- ever.

15 MR. EISNER: It's a good idea.

16 MS. BARHYDT: Does that make sense to

17 everyone?

18 MR. WHITWELL: Yes as long as everyone -- if

19 someone is -- all of their product is not out of

20 production.

21 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. That's what I was trying

22 to get, that description of somebody comes in for two
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1 months, then turns into O's. And they're constantly

2 kind of ending up with --

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: They have to declare it on

4 their cert report. So if we see a manufacturer with

5 all O's, what do you think we're going to do? I'm

6 pretty sure we're going to ask them for a live unit and

7 --

8 MR. WHITWELL: Yes, probably.

9 MR. JOHNSON: Come down hard on them.

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right? So I think that is

11 going to be something that is going to be like "Hmmm."

12 MR. STEPHENS: So on the private branding of

13 units, do you go after the brander or the OEM?

14 MR. WHITWELL: It depends on who certified

15 it.

16 MALE SPEAKER: It's whoever certifies; right?

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: It depends on what happens.

18 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. If it's noncompliant, the

19 private labeler and the manufacturer technically --

20 MS. MEYERS: What if you were the one who

21 certified it but the private labeler has it in

22 inventory but you have stopped production on it?
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: If it's not compliant?

2 MS. BARHYDT: You're saying which code do you

3 use: a D or an O?

4 MS. MEYERS: Yes. So let's say I am private

5 branding for someone but it has been discontinued but

6 they still have it in inventory.

7 MALE SPEAKER: It's in theirs?

8 MS. MEYERS: It's in their inventory but

9 we're the one who certified it. So we don't have it in

10 inventory.

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: You're certifying it.

12 MS. MEYERS: Do you see what I'm saying?

13 MS. BARHYDT: No. I do.

14 MS. MEYERS: So how would that work?

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think our expectation is

16 that you have a relationship with your private labeler

17 and you should know whether or not they are still

18 selling it or not.

19 MALE SPEAKER: Work out commercially.

20 MS. MEYERS: I would have no idea, though. I

21 have not have any idea if they had an inventory.

22 MS. BARHYDT: Well, if they're still
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1 operating it for sale. So if the private labeler has

2 some in inventory but they are making plans to export

3 it or get rid of it or whatever, it's not an issue.

4 It's if they're offering it for sale.

5 MR. HURST: Same thing. If you have a

6 product integrity issue where there was a safety issue,

7 you would inform your private labeler that you have a

8 safety issue. If he didn't certify, he didn't pass the

9 efficiency standard, you would notify that company that

10 you're not in compliance, I would think.

11 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers. I think

12 it's a little different in that, as Karen was

13 describing it, she had just received a request for that

14 unit. And she doesn't have any, but the private

15 labeler may. But she doesn't know what inventory the

16 private labeler has.

17 MR. HURST: Right.

18 MR. MYERS: It may be compliant or not

19 compliant. They just wanted to test. And I know those

20 companies we private label with, we sell them the

21 units. They're --

22 MS. MEYERS: I would want them to have --
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1 MR. MYERS: We don't know anything about

2 that.

3 MS. MEYERS: I don't whether it's still in

4 inventory.

5 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, AHRI. There

6 is a little difference here because at some point,

7 there is going to be this DOE certification database.

8 And the regulations, if you don't remember, are going

9 to require an annual report to DOE; right?

10 MS. BARHYDT: Right.

11 MR. STANONIK: And so if that private labeler

12 is still interested in making the world known that they

13 still have the models, they're going to ask the

14 certifier to continue to list it. So every year, every

15 year, we're going to have to tell DOE whether the model

16 iz still on the market or whether it's been

17 discontinued or out, whatever.

18 So if the private labeler wants to continue

19 to market the product or at least make the world aware

20 that it is marketing the product, there's going to have

21 to be some communication between the private labeler

22 and the certifier who was the OEM as to what is the
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1 status of that product for this year. Otherwise --

2 MS. MEYERS: That's not how we do it today.

3 So that could be a significant change. I'll have to

4 check with my sales department on that one because that

5 could be -- because I don't know if they would want to

6 even give me that information.

7 MR. STANONIK: Karen, I wasn't suggesting

8 that is how you do it today. I'm suggesting things are

9 changing.

10 MR. KLEISS: Jeff Kleiss, Lochinvar.

11 MS. MEYERS: And I would want to put that on

12 my report assuming that the information they were

13 giving me -- they might say, "Well, we don't have any

14 inventory." And then I would have to be certifying that

15 with DOE because of what they gave me. And I would

16 have no way to check that.

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: You can make them certify

18 themselves.

19 MS. MEYERS: Well, that is usually part of

20 the whole --

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, it goes to

22 authorities; right?
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1 MS. MEYERS: Yes. They may not be able to.

2 MR. WHITWELL: You're a customer. How are

3 they going to certify it unless you give them all of

4 the data to "This is how we qualified it"?

5 MR. STEPHENS: I've just got to throw it out

6 there because there might not be a 17-025 lab.

7 MS. BARHYDT: Yes.

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: You have to be certified to

9 be at a third party facility. And you would be at

10 their --

11 MS. MEYERS: They wouldn't have the test data

12 to certify it themselves. So we would be certifying

13 it. But sometime during the course of the year, the

14 unit went out of production. But they may still have

15 it in inventory, whether they would tell me that or not

16 because it's not my inventory. So they're going to

17 have to report their numbers back to me so that I can

18 certify to

19 DOE --

20 MS. BARHYDT: Once a year.

21 MS. MEYERS: I'm uncomfortable having to

22 certify that number based upon their --
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1 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. I understand.

2 MS. MEYERS: You know, maybe they don't know.

3 If it's a private labeler, they may have warehouses all

4 over the place.

5 MR. WHITWELL: So as the manufacturer, you

6 would put the O on your certification report. If DOE

7 was still interested in testing that unit, that would

8 go to the private labeler, which is part of the

9 certification.

10 MS. MEYERS: How would I ever know when you

11 change that O to a D?

12 MR. WHITWELL: I see your point.

13 MS. MEYERS: I would never know when they

14 changed it. I mean, think of a retail --

15 MR. WHITWELL: Yes.

16 MS. MEYERS: -- operation. I know this is

17 commercial --

18 MR. WHITWELL: But retail --

19 MS. MEYERS: -- but there are still some of

20 these units sold in that --

21 MR. WHITWELL: Yes, yes.

22 MS. MEYERS: And you're talking something in
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1 every city. So I would never know when to do that.

2 MR. MYERS: This is Frank. If you put an O

3 on it, they can still sell it. It just means it's out

4 of production. It doesn't mean they can --

5 MS. MEYERS: When do I change that to a D?

6 How would I ever know when to change that to a D?

7 MS. BARHYDT: So how about if we took out "or

8 private labeler"?

9 MS. MEYERS: Period.

10 MR. MYERS: Works. If you're talking

11 inventory control of the manufacturer, then the

12 manufacturers can take full responsibility.

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: So then the manufacturer also

14 takes full responsibility for certifying, which it

15 sounds like you already do anyway, all labeled

16 products, period. And then other requirements are based

17 on what you know yourself.

18 MR. MYERS: And if not, then the private

19 labeler would do it.

20 MR. WHITWELL: So that would mean that the

21 manufacturer of the product must do the certification?

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: We would amend the regs to
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1 get rid of private labelers. I mean, private labeler -

2 - yes.

3 MS. BARHYDT: The regs already say the

4 manufacturer bears the responsibility for

5 certification.

6 MR. STANONIK: I get them confused, but don't

7 the regs also say that if you actually have the

8 circumstance where the private labeler was in the U.S.

9 market acting like the OEM because he had

10 arranged for importation from some place?

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: The manufacturer.

12 MR. STANONIK: That he's the manufacturer;

13 right.

14 MS. BARHYDT: Yes, or they're modifying your

15 product and they're reselling it to become a

16 manufacturer. So it all comes back to manufacturing.

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: So then it is only you. You

18 would use your O.

19 MS. MEYERS: So the private labeler can no

20 longer be the certifier.

21 MR. MYERS: Well, if they are, they're a

22 manufacturer.
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: The manufacturer, period, is

2 required to certify.

3 MS. BARHYDT: So by making that change, it

4 becomes you are certifying as to whether you are

5 producing and you are certifying as to whether you are

6 selling and you're not worried about what the private

7 labeler is or is not doing.

8 MS. MEYERS: Okay. So just let me switch

9 hats. Now I'm the private labeler. I'm also a

10 manufacturer, but I'm a private labeler. And I want to

11 control.

12 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

13 MS. MEYERS: So do other companies around the

14 table agree, then, that a private labeler can never be

15 the certifier of the equipment? That's what I'm

16 struggling with.

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: They can be if -- well, right

18 now under our regs, they're not -- they could be a

19 third party. Anybody can.

20 MS. BARHYDT: But they don't certify. A

21 third party is not a certifier. They're just a

22 submitter.
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: I agree. I agree. They

2 would be a submitter.

3 MR. THARP: Ashley, do you feature roles on

4 manufacturer of import versus export?

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: What was that?

6 MR. THARP: What if the company that produces

7 the product on product only is an export, nondomestic

8 company and who sells it, the private labeler, is a

9 domestic company? Who is the manufacturer?

10 MS. BARHYDT: So a foreign OEM and a domestic

11 private labeler.

12 MR. THARP: Right.

13 MS. BARHYDT: Who is the importer of record?

14 One of you is filing paperwork with Customs.

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's the person.

16 MS. BARHYDT: That's the person responsible.

17 And if it's like this third party person, guess what.

18 MR. WHITWELL: So where is that in the --

19 MS. BARHYDT: It's all in the definition of

20 manufacturer.

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Four thirty-one.

22 MS. BARHYDT: Yes, 431.2.
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1 MR. BALLO: It sounded like what you're

2 saying is it's sometimes hard to identify who the

3 manufacturer is. Is that --

4 MALE SPEAKER: You've got to wake up.

5 MS. BARHYDT: We have our ways.

6 MR. KLEISS: I want to make sure that I

7 understand what is going to be required of the

8 manufacturer. On a simpler, not private label,

9 situation, we have a product family: Dixie. And we

10 decide to stop producing that product family. And we

11 have an inventory of, say, five different models within

12 that family. And gradually we are going to sell down

13 those models. So it is my --

14 MS. BARHYDT: Family or basic model?

15 MR. KLEISS: Family is basic model.

16 MS. BARHYDT: I just want to make sure I

17 understand what you're talking about. You have five

18 basic models in the line?

19 MR. KLEISS: For the sake --

20 MR. WHITWELL: Yes.

21 MR. KLEISS: Well, do we even have to

22 determine individual model? Let's just for a second
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1 say that it's about five basic models within this

2 product family and we are going to be discontinuing or

3 we have stopped producing that whole group of products.

4 And then gradually we are going to be depleting our

5 inventory. Now, it is my responsibility as soon as we

6 stop production to --

7 MS. BARHYDT: Once a year on your report, --

8 MR. WHITWELL: On your annual report.

9 MS. BARHYDT: -- on your annual report, you

10 report the status of that date as of that date.

11 MR. KLEISS: And that needs to be, the

12 product selection that is made for verification testing

13 needs to be, done the day after that date?

14 MALE SPEAKER: Why?

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: We haven't discussed that.

16 MS. BARHYDT: We haven't discussed when the

17 selection would happen.

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: In theory, it could be done

19 any day of the year.

20 MS. BARHYDT: So the responsibility, the

21 obligation to mark things as I guess now O or D would

22 be a once-a-year obligation. You are required to
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1 certify any new basic model prior to distribution in

2 commerce. So you may be adding things through the year,

3 but you only take stuff off once a year or you are only

4 required to. I mean, you can do it as often as you

5 want.

6 MR. KLEISS: But to select products that I

7 don't have --

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: You could tell us that.

9 MS. BARHYDT: You can tell us.

10 MR. KLEISS: After you select them, I can

11 tell you I don't have them?

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: If there's ever a case where

13 -- you could say it's O; right, "I'm no longer

14 manufacturing it, but I'm still offering it for sale"

15 if you're doing that. Right? And then it's just not

16 subject to a DOE- approved verification program, but

17 it's still subject to DOE assessment testing if we

18 wanted to.

19 MR. EISNER: But if they tell you once a year

20 and they discontinued it on the 3rd of January and they

21 don't tell you until next January, you don't know that

22 they discontinued it.
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: And then they'll just say

2 it's discontinued. And we'll say, "Okay. Here's the

3 next one."

4 MR. KLEISS: There's a problem with that,

5 though. If I don't want you to test a certain product,

6 I can just tell you, "Oh, we're not making that

7 anymore."

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: And if you still are making

9 that product, then you'll get a different notice from

10 Laura, which is not a welcomed one.

11 MR. KLEISS: Yes.

12 MR. EISNER: Do you have an audit trail?

13 They go in and enter the information. They check the

14 box that it --

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: We do.

16 MS. BARHYDT: We can tell.

17 MR. EISNER: Do you have an audit trail --

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Absolutely.

19 MR. EISNER: -- so you can see if they change

20 back and forth?

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.

22 MR. EISNER: Okay. You guys are in trouble.
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1 MR. KLEISS: No. My concern is more of

2 recordkeeping and communication to you and controlling

3 that system on my end to make sure that I don't create

4 a problem. But then that system can also be abused.

5 Okay. It sounds like you all are comfortable with that

6 and the system will not be abused because you all are

7 going to handle that. I'm okay.

8 MR. EISNER: When they report to you, on

9 January 1st, they report, January 2nd, they report to

10 you, and they intend to discontinue production on

11 February 1st. They don't tell you that. They just tell

12 you it's not discontinued.

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: They don't have to.

14 MR. EISNER: It's still manufactured --

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: They can.

16 MR. EISNER: They could tell you?

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: They don't have to.

18 MR. THARP: The manufacturer has the option

19 on February 2nd, then, of changing it.

20 MR. EISNER: If they want.

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Absolutely.

22 MR. EISNER: So they can go in any time they
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1 want and change it?

2 MR. THARP: Go in anytime.

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Twenty-four hours a day --

4 MS. BARHYDT: They can change it any time

5 they want.

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- every day of the year.

7 MALE SPEAKER: Unless the system is down for

8 maintenance.

9 FEMALE SPEAKER: I don't think that's ever

10 happened.

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: It has, but it --

12 MALE SPEAKER: Which is where?

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: If you are estimating your

14 CCMS report on Saturday night at 9:00 p.m. in the fall,

15 I'm going to wonder what's, you know --

16 MR. EISNER: Does your system go down more

17 than the product goes down for maintenance?

18 MS. MEYERS: So I have one more example. So

19 let's say I have a small manufacturer that has

20 developed a specialized product for me but their lab

21 capabilities to certify it is they want to use it, my

22 lab, because I am the bigger guy, but I am the private
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1 labeler.

2 MR. STANONIK: So what's the question?

3 MS. MEYERS: So who is certifying the

4 product? I mean, they are not using their --

5 MR. STANONIK: Are they the OEM? Are they

6 the OEM?

7 MS. BARHYDT: Yes.

8 MS. MEYERS: They are the OEM, but they don't

9 have a lab. So they're using my lab.

10 MS. BARHYDT: That's no different than paying

11 somebody else to do the testing.

12 MS. MEYERS: Okay.

13 MR. STANONIK: DOE regulations --

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's no different than you

15 doing testing at --

16 MR. STANONIK: Right.

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- at his lab.

18 MR. STANONIK: Right. They're still

19 responsible.

20 MS. MEYERS: Got it. Okay.

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, we have no

22 requirements as far as certification goes as to where
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1 somebody can test.

2 MR. WHITWELL: So explain to me again what

3 you said about imports. So in imports, it's not

4 necessarily the manufacturer. It's whoever gets the

5 import license?

6 MS. BARHYDT: By law, it is the manufacturer.

7 It's just not manufacturer in the normal sense of the

8 word. It's the person who imports it.

9 MS. MEYERS: So the importer has to be the

10 manufacturer responsible for the certification.

11 MR. HURST: So if you have a product you

12 bring into the country that a manufacturer oversees by

13 half and you're going to bring in, you would be

14 technically the manufacturer.

15 MR. WHITWELL: Unless -- it depends. It

16 probably depends on when it changes, when it legally

17 changes hands; right, I guess? It could be the --

18 MS. MEYERS: Then they have you in under

19 their license and then sell it to us --

20 MS. BARHYDT: Then they have to certify it.

21 MS. MEYERS: The n they have to certify it.

22 MR. STEPHENS: What about preexisting
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1 agreements that don't respond?

2 MS. BARHYDT: Such as?

3 MR. STEPHENS: Such as company A has an

4 agreement with company B from wherever else in the

5 world.

6 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So B is somewhere else.

7 MR. STEPHENS: B is somewhere else.

8 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

9 MR. STEPHENS: That has an agreement already

10 established so that it doesn't change hands until it is

11 - - company B imports it, brings it to the U.S., and it

12 changes hands after it arrives in the U.S.

13 MS. BARHYDT: Right.

14 MR. STEPHENS: Company A has done the

15 certification, provides the efficiencies.

16 MS. BARHYDT: So when you certify it, you are

17 actually going to certify it in a different way. They

18 need to provide DOE with a copy of a form that says, "I

19 am authorizing company A to act on my behalf, to submit

20 my certification." And you would fill out the form.

21 And you would fill out the certification report, and

22 you would submit it. But you would submit it as a
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1 third party certifier on behalf -- third party

2 submitter on behalf of company B. B is still the

3 manufacturer. And they are responsible for that

4 certification. You just are filling out the paperwork

5 for them.

6 MR. STEPHENS: Even if company A has done all

7 of the testing?

8 MS. BARHYDT: Yes.

9 MR. STEPHENS: Same as if you send it --

10 MS. HOOTMAN: And is marketing it and is

11 warrantying it in the United States and if there was a

12 problem with consumer products and it had a fire, that

13 company A is still the one responsible.

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, I mean it's different

15 if it's not compliant.

16 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. That is what I am saying.

17 MS. BARHYDT: Because private labelers are

18 responsible for the compliance as well as the

19 manufacturer.

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: So both of you would be, but

21 we're just talking about who files the paperwork unless

22 it's --
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1 MS. HOOTMAN: Right.

2 MS. BARHYDT: In every scenario, we will be

3 able to point to one person who was responsible for

4 filing the paperwork. That was a big change, actually,

5 from the old certification requirements to the newer

6 certification requirements. It used to be the

7 manufacturers and private labelers were both required

8 to certify. And that caused so much duplication.

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: And confusion.

10 MS. BARHYDT: And confusion because everybody

11 thought everyone else was doing it, and it was a real

12 mess because you had multiple certifications for one

13 product.

14 MS. MEYERS: Yes. I hear what you're saying.

15 It makes sense. I think there are tax issues involved,

16 though, now because importer and manufacturer.

17 MS. HOOTMAN: Because when the ownership of

18 it happens and when import duties get --

19 MS. MEYERS: Yes.

20 MS. BARHYDT: But we're not --

21 MS. HOOTMAN: Like his example of the

22 agreement --
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1 MS. BARHYDT: -- suggesting that you should

2 take any particular --

3 MR. HOOTMAN: -- of landed U.S. --

4 MS. BARHYDT: -- approach.

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: We should see signs of

6 paperwork.

7 MS. MEYERS: But I'm thinking the way we view

8 it now may need to be revised.

9 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. And our contracts with

10 those suppliers need to be revised because it doesn't

11 show that they're responsible for doing this. So there

12 are lots of contracts I can think of that need to be

13 revised. If it doesn't show it, his example --

14 MR. EISNER: You mean changing the rule.

15 They're not changing the rule. This is by statute, I

16 think he said.

17 MS. BARHYDT: Well, not the certification

18 requirement. It's not by statute. But the definition

19 of who is the manufacturer is by statute. I mean, that

20 is a legal requirement. And it's not a contractual

21 issue. I mean, EPCA makes the manufacturer the

22 importer. And that is one of the parties who is
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1 responsible for the compliance of the product along

2 with the private labeler.

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: I would say that a lot of

4 people don't know about our regs --

5 MS. BARHYDT: A lot of people don't. We --

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- generally.

7 THE REPORTER: One at a time, please.

8 MS. HOOTMAN: The contracts are not set up

9 that way.

10 MS. BARHYDT: We spend a huge amount of time

11 answering questions and working and trying to get --

12 and working on outreach, but I would agree. I think

13 there are a lot of foreign manufacturers who don't

14 realize or a lot of importers who don't realize. And

15 we're working on that.

16 MS. HOOTMAN: All right. So then I think you

17 gave the example before something is made overseas but

18 brought in and we do some modification to it here.

19 Does that --

20 MS. BARHYDT: Then you become the

21 manufacturer.

22 MS. HOOTMAN: Then the U.S. person becomes
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1 the manufacturer of it.

2 MS. BARHYDT: Yes.

3 MS. HOOTMAN: What do you consider

4 substantially doing something to it?

5 MS. BARHYDT: If it is a modification that

6 impacts the energy performance.

7 MR. EISNER: Economizer?

8 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. If you slide in an

9 economizer.

10 (Simultaneous discussion.)

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, if you spray those

12 coils.

13 MS. HOOTMAN: So slapping that name tag on it

14 is not going to do it?

15 MR. WHITWELL: Or it could be hydraulic coil

16 if you --

17 MR. EISNER: I'm learning so much.

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't know what we were

19 talking -- where were we?

20 MS. BARHYDT: I don't know how we --

21 MR. EISNER: Do we have a definition here we

22 want to vote on to go into the rule?
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1 MS. BARHYDT: Do you want to vote today or do

2 you want to just work through material or --

3 MR. EISNER: I mean, is this something

4 everybody agrees to and we can say it unanimous on the

5 bottom?

6 MR. WHITWELL: Well, we need to see the rest

7 of the definitions first.

8 MS. DANE: I would like to see all of the

9 definitions.

10 MR. WHITWELL: Yes.

11 MR. EISNER: How many more are there like

12 this?

13 MR. WHITWELL: I don't know.

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: What definition are you

15 looking for?

16 MR. WHITWELL: I don't know. I mean, we

17 started to list the definitions.

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Good for you.

19 MR. WHITWELL: I am waiting to see if there

20 are more.

21 MR. EISNER: We ought to tag this in some way

22 so we --
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: This came about because we

2 were talking about should there be a hierarchy to

3 obtaining products. In other words, if something is

4 offered at a retail location, which is not common for

5 this but does happen, should there be retail first,

6 then distributor, then this? I don't know what the

7 answer is. I am just making up things. And then

8 eventually if it has to be built to order, you know,

9 what does that mean or if it's coming off the

10 production line, you know, I think that's where we're

11 going for this.

12 And then we decided that the O, we need to

13 know when it's no longer in production. So we added

14 the O and a definition of that. So getting that to it,

15 it's that - - or should it just be -- go back to where

16 you were. No. Go left. Go left.

17 MS. DANE: Wouldn't the answer to that

18 question, that definition, come to whether we're

19 allowed to use our third party test house programs that

20 we have already spoken so highly of?

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. Well, I think that's

22 it. I mean, if we say a DOE-approved verification
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1 program, whether it be a third party program you're

2 already using, your own program that you decide to

3 design and apply for, whatever this DOE-approved

4 program is, you know, would have -- and maybe it's just

5 that they need to write down what their selection

6 process is. But should there be certain guidelines for

7 it or requirements such that people are doing it the

8 same way? I guess that is the question.

9 MR. WHITWELL: So maybe this isn't the time

10 to bring it up, but one of those you have got listed

11 there is "Supplied by distributor." And so these are

12 for verification, which means that the manufacturer is

13 supplying the product or paying for the product. So if

14 you go to a distributor, it is going to cost us more

15 than if we just supply it from our stock.

16 MS. HOOTMAN: You've got to buy it back.

17 MR. WHITWELL: We've got to buy it back.

18 It's going to be a markup. So I would say I would not

19 be in favor of that.

20 MR. EISNER: Why do you need that in there?

21 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. Why do you need it, I

22 mean, if you can get it from the manufacturer or from
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1 the manufacturer in --

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's out of your possession.

3 MR. STEPHENS: If you're talking your spot

4 check, then --

5 MR. WHITWELL: Yes, yes.

6 MR. STEPHENS: If we're talking --

7 MR. WHITWELL: If we're talking verification,

8 then I would take "Supplied by distributor" out.

9 MR. STEPHENS: And "Retail off the shelf"

10 also.

11 MS. HOOTMAN: In both cases, you would be

12 buying it back.

13 MR. WHITWELL: "Retail off the shelf" as

14 well, right.

15 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes.

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: What if it was a distributor

17 owned by you?

18 MR. WHITWELL: There is still a markup.

19 There is still a markup because it's another step in

20 the chain.

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay.

22 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes.
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1 MR. WHITWELL: And they've got to cover their

2 costs.

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, you couldn't just

4 supply them with another unit; in other words, change

5 it up?

6 MR. WHITWELL: So it's supplied by the

7 manufacturer.

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's supplied by --

9 MR. WHITWELL: It's supplied by the

10 manufacturer then.

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's coming from the

12 distributor site, but you are resupplying them with

13 their inventory.

14 MS. HOOTMAN: But can that be our choice?

15 MR. EISNER: But probably charge the

16 restocking cost.

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't know. It's totally

18 for discussion. I have no --

19 MS. HOOTMAN: We wouldn't do it if --

20 MR. STANONIK: If you went that direction,

21 why don't you just go back to manufacturer-provided?

22 If you're going to make the manufacturer make one to
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1 substitute for the one you pulled out of the

2 distributor, why not just go to the source?

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: There is a difference there;

4 right?

5 MR. STANONIK: If we were to figure out those

6 rules, have them make the necessary pool; right? Frank

7 Stanonik, AHRI. I would suggest -- and, again, it is

8 very difficult to see the whole picture here, but I

9 would suggest, okay, the hierarchy is that if the

10 manufacturer provides it, if they don't have that

11 model, you test another model that came from the same

12 AEDM --

13 MR. WHITWELL: Or we would build a different

14 -- we would maybe propose a different model that we

15 might have in inventory --

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. This is --

17 MR. WHITWELL: -- or we would have to build

18 another one.

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: Like for HVAC when you guys

20 have agreed to either test at a third party lab or a

21 person being on site where if a third -- an independent

22 person if they are on site and they could say, "I want
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1 this. This is what I want" and if you say, "I don't

2 have that one, but this is what I have" or "Here is

3 what I have" and they randomly pick one but you're

4 asking DOE to also consider a lab requirement where no

5 one is on site but you have just been approved as a

6 manufacturer witness lab, so how do selections work?

7 And there is no independent person there to select per

8 se. Maybe there doesn't need to be. I don't know.

9 This is just more a discussion exercise.

10 MR. STANONIK: That's actually a different

11 question. Okay. Let's say they're all manufacturer12 provided. Let's say you would agree to that. Okay?

13 But then you have the sub-issue that, okay, if the

14 manufacturer is using the satellite program so that, in

15 fact, the manufacturer is the selector and the tester

16 and everything else. I mean, if that's the -- you

17 know, then maybe we need to address that sub-issue of

18 under that circumstance how does the satellite

19 manufacturer select samples. But that's -- to me, you

20 know, that shouldn't color how you addressed everything

21 else --

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.
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1 MR. STANONIK: -- because that's in all the

2 other cases. Again, I think if you really look at

3 this, the only answers, all the stuff should be

4 manufacturer- provided, however you work that out.

5 Anything else is a huge complication, I mean, for all

6 the commercial products.

7 MR. THARP: And that's why it's best to do

8 this commercial HVAC option for where you test it.

9 Then you don't have to worry --

10 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp, Goodman. This whole

11 scenario is one of the reasons why HVAC, commercial

12 HVAC, suggested just the two top options for where you

13 test because then you don't have to worry as much about

14 the selection process. It makes things a lot easier.

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: As a manufacturer is running

16 the test, the manufacturer is picking the unit, the

17 manufacturer is -- you know, there is no one there.

18 The manufacturer is providing the test results. Yes,

19 there is some oversight at some point in time during

20 the year from a third party but not at the same -- you

21 know, maybe if you want us to consider that option, we

22 say you have to supply from a distributor or you have
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1 to supply from inventory, I mean, something that --

2 MR. WHITWELL: So I think Frank's suggestion

3 was a good one. Let's talk about that majority and

4 then come back and talk about this specific issue.

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay.

6 MS. DANE: Right, because I don't think that

7 what we meant to say even when the manufacturers do

8 their own testing and things was not to presume that we

9 would do the selection of the unit that you would

10 verify. If we talk about how we test and what the

11 percentage numbers and all of those numbers that go

12 into that, then we could talk about DOE picking them

13 because you would have more flexibility and we wouldn't

14 be able to make our special units up ahead of time.

15 You would still get a clean test.

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. And no one --

17 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers. We might be

18 able to even do that through the -- if we were taking

19 that third option, what we have been calling the

20 satellite option, maybe we inform the third party

21 laboratory of what we have in stock. They pick, and we

22 go pull it.
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1 MS. DANE: That's what we do for NSF. And I

2 recently had an ENERGY STAR test. And they asked for a

3 certain model. And the only difference between the one

4 they asked for and the one I had was the doors were

5 hinged on the opposite site, but it changed the part

6 number. And I had to ask permission to get it done.

7 You know, I mean, I still had to provide the reason why

8 I couldn't supply what they asked for. And once they

9 realized it was only door hinges, they were fine. But,

10 I mean, that's not an uncommon thing. But NSF will ask

11 you what you have got in your inventory at that time

12 when they come in to do an inspection. And then, you

13 know, a lot of times we have got to go over to the

14 storehouse and get it and bring it over, uncrate it,

15 and have them look at it.

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: But they're there. They're

17 on site. That is the difference.

18 MS. DANE: Well, that is part of their

19 verification program. But it could be the same thing

20 with ENERGY STAR. They're not here when they send me a

21 letter and ENERGY STAR says, "We want to see these

22 units." So whether you do it, whether you are standing
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1 in my office or you do it, through the mail, they're

2 still choosing what --

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Sure.

4 MS. DANE: -- you're going to verify. And I

5 don't think that's an argument.

6 MR. KOJAK: You guys could still accept the

7 units or you could have the --

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, I mean, we retain the

9 right to show up at any time; right? So that's like a

10 year.

11 MS. BARHYDT: Yes.

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, if we decided to show

13 up and we wanted to say, "What's in your inventory

14 today? Let's go play in the test room" --

15 MR. KOJAK: Well, if they're not part of the

16 AHRI program, you could leave it up to the third party,

17 the other VICP group that they're involved -- you could

18 leave it up to them to come up with their own selection

19 process that they work with you guys to say it's okay.

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: That is one option; right,

21 that the selection process has to be documented and the

22 manual they submit to DOE to get approval; right, to
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1 get some type of recognized approval? And should there

2 be any minimum set of requirements such that all of

3 those types of things are equitable? And maybe the

4 answer is no, that everyone should be able to have the

5 flexibility to, you know, submit their ideas. And if

6 DOE is not comfortable, we can say no.

7 MR. RIVEST: You could have principles

8 without having criteria.

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. I mean, that's the

10 idea. Is there some guiding principle? Is there some

11 minimum level that is a deal breaker for DOE just so

12 you know at the outset --

13 MR. KOJAK: Well, because that could be kind

14 of customized for the smaller manufacturers, --

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: Sure.

16 MR. KOJAK: -- you know, that you will be

17 okay with their selection process being very non18 complicated, but some of the larger manufacturers, you

19 can want it to be more diversified and it can be kind

20 of a custom --

21 MR. WHITWELL: I don't understand.

22 MS. HOOTMAN: I don't understand either.
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1 MR. WHITWELL: I didn't understand that.

2 MS. HOOTMAN: I didn't understand, and I

3 can't hear some of it.

4 MR. WHITWELL: Yes.

5 MR. KOJAK: I was just talking about if

6 they're not part of the AHRI program and to give the

7 ability to whoever they are going to use, a third party

8 test lab verification program, leave it up to them to

9 decide who or what units to test, and that would be

10 worked out with that third party VICP with the DOE.

11 And that could be customized pretty much to the size of

12 the customers that are in that program for, let's say,

13 a smaller manufacturer. The selection process can be a

14 little bit more custom to what they make and how much

15 of it they make than it is to a larger manufacturer,

16 where it would be a lot easier to pick test units in a

17 broader scope because of their production and what they

18 offer. So it doesn't have to a one thing fits

19 everybody. It could be customized to the individual

20 companies that are involved with those, the third party

21 VICPs.

22 MR. WHITWELL: But whether it is a smaller or
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1 large company, let's say they're offering the same

2 product range. Why wouldn't the selection process be

3 somewhat similar?

4 MR. KOJAK: Well, I would think it would, but

5 maybe the volume would be different because you might

6 offer more, but if you are making 10,000 of each kind

7 and they're only making 2 of each kind, I mean, I would

8 think that --

9 MR. WHITWELL: Okay. But you're talking

10 about numbers of units, as opposed to what the

11 selection process --

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think you get my point.

13 Does there need to be some minimum level of guiding

14 principles so that the selection process is less

15 complicated or should it be left to each verification

16 program individually? I don't have the answer, but

17 that is pretty much what I was asking.

18 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. I mean, there is some

19 criteria for AHRI; right? I mean, one is to try to get

20 all of the basic model groups over a certain period of

21 time. Also, it's some percentage that is picked based

22 on high efficiency equipment. Right? There's a few --
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1 MR. AMRANE: It's random. I mean, it's not -

2 -

3 MR. WHITWELL: And there are some that are

4 just random, right.

5 MR. AMRANE: But it's subject to the staff

6 who is handling the program who takes, you know, the --

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: What is that process?

8 MR. KOJAK: That was part of it before. AHRI

9 has a higher level of oversight than this will be. So,

10 you know, if AHRI wants to cover all of these products

11 over a certain amount of years, the DOE verification

12 program might not have to meet that same requirement of

13 looking at everything within that same point of time

14 because that was something we mentioned. This is

15 something completely different than AHRI. So this

16 doesn't have to, you know, cover everything as fast.

17 It could be, you know, not as intense.

18 MR. WHITWELL: So are you suggesting that

19 AHRI might not have to provide all of the data from

20 their verification program, certification program to

21 DOE but only a subset of that?

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: No.
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1 MR. WHITWELL: I'm not quite sure what the

2 point is there.

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, I don't think we have

4 talked about data needs to be provided to the

5 Department yet --

6 MS. HOOTMAN: Yet.

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- and when it needs to be

8 provided and how often it needs to be provided and how

9 quickly it needs to be provided. And since it's almost

10 6:00 o'clock, I'm going to say I know she has to leave

11 right at 6:00. And we're not going to embark on that

12 territory, but why don't we leave it right now as

13 manufacturer-provided/off the production line? And

14 Laura is going to sleep on it. And she'll bring it up

15 tomorrow morning. There are additional discussion

16 points.

17 MR. STANONIK: But keep in mind this is the

18 heading "Built to stock," "In stock." So these are

19 that subgrouping of the commercial market that are,

20 let's say, frequently manufactured. And "frequently"

21 is, admittedly, undefined right here.

22 MR. WHITWELL: Well, with built to stock, the
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1 implication is that quite often you are going to be

2 able to get it out of inventory; right?

3 MR. STANONIK: Right.

4 MR. WHITWELL: Not only --

5 MR. STANONIK: That is the implication,

6 right. Yes. We are only talking about that subset

7 because --

8 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. So we will pick up here

9 tomorrow 8:00 a.m.

10 (Whereupon, at 5:51 p.m., the Appliance

11 Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory

12 Committee was adjourned.)

13

14

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1 ~ERTIFICATE OF COURT REPORTER 

2 I, CHRISTINE ALLEN, the Court Reporter before 

3 whom the foregoing proceeding was taken, do hereby 

4 certify that the proceeding was recorded by me; that 

5 the proceeding was thereafter reduced to typewriting 

6 under my direction; that said transcript is a true and 

7 accurate record of the proceeding; that I am neither 

8 related to nor employed by any of the parties to this 

9 proceeding; and, further, that I have no financial 

10 interest in this proceeding. 

11 

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Digital Court Reporter 

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241:16,17 242:9

243:7,9

245:3,9,18

249:20 250:3

251:1 253:12

254:10 256:13

266:21 267:3,22

270:8,10,12,22

271:9,13

272:9,10

27 243:12

27th 232:11

235:16,17

238:9,10,11

239:4,5 242:9

243:7 253:12

254:11 258:19

28th 243:13,18

245:18 250:5

254:11,13,18

256:15,18,19

257:9 258:19

259:16 266:10

267:3,22 270:10

29 242:21 243:12

29th 242:10,18

243:7,11 250:12

251:1 255:2,6

256:13,17

266:11,12 268:3

2nd 302:9,19

3

3 159:10

3:00 264:4

30 242:21 243:12

30-person 248:2

30th 242:19

245:10

34360 186:14

346360 186:19

3rd

237:4,6,8,10,16

241:5 300:20

4

4 241:12

40 215:12

430 175:1 184:16

185:21 190:10

431 183:8,13

431.2 297:22

441-446 6:21

446 7:5

46 8:11

4th 237:4,6,8,16

241:5 242:18

5

5 208:4,5 241:12

5:00 252:16 263:1

265:22

5:51 328:10

500 208:16

55,000 8:14

55-foot 96:5

58 8:12

5th 237:4,6,8,14

241:10

6

6 223:8 228:20

241:12

6:00 245:6 264:3

265:6,13,21

266:15,22

267:1,4,6,7,8,9,1

1,16,17

268:1,2,10

269:10,11

327:10,11

6:40 269:17,21

62 159:10

63 81:4

65 124:2 126:17

127:7,21 214:10

650 246:22

6th 237:4,6,8,14

241:11

7

7 1:10 222:5

72 182:22

75 201:8,15

7th 270:10

8

8:00 245:5 253:3

264:11

265:1,6,13,19,21

,22 266:15,22

267:1,4,17

268:10 328:9

8:30

267:11,12,13,16

268:1,2

80 227:12

9

9/11 250:9

9:00 269:18

273:2,5 303:14

9:30 264:21

90 201:14 212:2

227:12

950 1:7

9th

239:16,17,19,21

253:22 254:8

A

a.m 1:11 328:9

AAON 2:16 9:4

55:12 67:13 93:7

152:15 183:18

207:2 220:22

281:14

abilities 59:17

ability 13:10 15:21

36:10 52:9 58:8

72:11 88:6

105:17 106:4,14

131:1,4 172:7

198:9 324:7

able 17:14 18:8

31:7,19

32:2,3,18 33:13

35:7,11 51:12

63:7 82:9 88:1

91:15 107:11
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115:3 117:19

118:3,12 120:9

122:9

131:2,14,20

134:4,5 140:17

141:7 142:9,15

145:12 148:13

153:11 154:18

163:11,20

164:8,20 165:12

173:4 180:5

190:22 191:12

193:19 194:1

205:11 211:5

230:17 237:2

247:11 249:1

259:11,12

282:19 285:11

292:1 308:3

320:14,18 323:4

328:2

ABMA 12:16

13:20 165:7

absolutely 70:7

109:18 110:7

128:7 147:6

161:8 162:20

165:19 176:2

189:7 208:7

247:22 301:18

302:21

absolve 107:15

abstain 192:7

absurd 212:18

abused 302:4,6

accept 44:11 58:12

76:15 102:2

145:12,21 190:2

191:4,10,13

246:10 322:6

acceptable 43:15

73:6 75:18 139:6

144:16 184:19

194:9

accepting 75:21

191:17

access 66:4

231:11,15,16

acclimation

233:18 255:1

accommodate

180:14

accommodations

129:5

accomplish 259:7

accordance 121:3

according 22:17

accounted 192:16

accredit 22:16

101:22 102:17

114:8,16 184:15

accreditation 21:7

23:21 24:6,10

25:10 26:15

28:12,17 36:1,4

38:10 67:15

86:13,22 100:18

101:11,21 106:3

114:15 132:2

148:10 175:8

183:21 185:11

accreditations

100:9 106:2

121:1 130:15

144:7

accredited 19:19

20:20 21:6 24:17

36:5 40:11 43:5

54:16 83:17 84:2

86:11 98:15

100:21 102:15

103:17,20

104:3,5,17,18

105:4,7,13,14

107:15 108:13

109:15 138:15

140:17 176:5

184:6

accrediting 139:4

175:5 176:1

183:19,22

184:7,13 185:6

accreditors 185:9

187:4

accuracy 13:9

32:9 74:22

accurate 30:12

121:3,9 199:5

329:7

achieve 177:6

acknowledge

72:10 98:7,8

acknowledgement

202:2

acknowledges

79:17

acronym 28:16

acronyms 26:20

107:8

across 18:9 79:16

96:2 208:10

247:12 248:21

255:15 278:21

act 306:19

acting 295:9

action 253:12

actual 21:13,15

134:4 135:16

172:20 180:6

186:11

actuality 177:19

actually 30:13

34:6 36:8 42:15

47:8,22 48:1

61:22 81:14

86:19 108:20

119:8 121:9

134:7 137:20

145:3 149:9

153:16 183:9

186:14 188:8

232:4 236:3,16

273:11,13 295:7

306:17 308:4

318:10

add 26:3,18 36:21

39:2 42:12

51:7,17 52:3

60:4,5 62:7

104:10,20

107:18 112:18

113:4,5 128:3

138:9 141:14

156:12 180:16

185:6 192:2

241:22 242:2

250:5,12

280:19,20

added 179:2 219:3

227:15

266:10,12

313:13

adding 112:14

270:7 300:2

addition 18:20

51:20 91:21

113:1 198:7

228:13

additional 15:9

19:9 62:2 99:8

104:8 107:18,19

109:1 130:12

138:21 198:13

327:15
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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

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additionally 19:8

address 11:2 17:1

52:2 79:10

109:22 134:18

137:18 162:11

177:4 191:17

223:18 229:8

234:21 284:1,17

318:17

addressed 7:20

137:11 201:20

318:20

addressing 220:1

adds 80:1

adequate 5:17

13:7,8 119:13

144:20

adequately 79:10

165:20

adjourn 264:2

adjourned 328:12

adjust 269:15

adjusted 237:19

administration

59:11

admittedly 327:21

adopt 127:10

adopted 128:12

advance 254:3,4

advantage 87:22

advertising 74:19

Advisory 1:4

234:22 328:11

AEDM 212:12

317:12

AEDMs 212:8,9

Affairs 236:19,20

affect 74:17

153:2,19

affecting 12:9

affiliated 102:19

afford 136:18

163:13

after-confidence

144:18

afternoon 219:11

222:10 262:15

afterwards 253:21

against 118:2

283:3

agencies 12:8

122:14

agency 105:14

109:14 126:22

132:4,7 143:1

174:19 175:3,7

176:4 190:3

193:21 198:7

agenda 137:12

252:14

262:17,19

ages 195:9

ago 30:17 50:13

61:21 222:18

274:8

agreed 216:1

218:6 227:2

231:1 235:21

317:20

agreed-upon 13:7

agreeing 148:8

agreement 16:17

119:15,18 128:9

166:15 228:3

233:13 258:18

266:5 306:4,9

308:22

agreements

233:11 306:1

ahead 6:6 16:21

20:14 112:12

143:16,17

147:15 161:22

216:11 222:13

225:14 229:22

235:12

253:11,19

273:19 320:14

AHRI 2:7 3:14,18

13:18 21:2

45:16,17,21

47:16 73:7 75:15

82:17,18 84:13

86:2 87:2 89:7

97:14,22 99:6,12

117:1 118:16

136:1 137:5,10

138:21 155:6

164:19

165:1,19,21

167:3,4 173:11

175:9 178:3

202:16 205:22

208:19 209:5

212:5 215:7

216:12,21

218:4,13 219:16

220:16 221:2

223:1 224:7

226:16 230:2

237:17 238:20

239:10 241:5

246:10,11

247:4,16 248:19

259:9,12,13

274:4 276:1,20

290:5 317:7

322:16 324:6

325:19

326:8,10,15,19

AHRI's 75:16

129:14

air 4:21 5:2

6:7,16,18 136:21

170:12 171:5

172:18

Air-Conditioning

2:6,11 3:13

Air-cooled/watercooled 78:3

air-over 4:16 6:14

airports 255:10

Alaska 232:6

all-day 252:3,15

Allen 1:16

329:2,15

alleviate 171:8

allow 21:2 39:4

50:13

114:10,12,16,22

115:7 123:13

139:2 145:21

200:7 265:22

allowances 165:14

allowed 47:2 76:9

138:18,19 176:8

313:19

allows 102:18

already 28:20

34:19 36:22

38:1,12 44:14,17

54:10 57:18

65:14 82:18

108:17 112:18

118:8,12 120:18

126:18 165:21

166:2 217:20

230:16 231:6
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236:13 238:7

241:15 245:19

250:21 271:22

294:15 295:3

306:9 313:20

314:2

alternate 9:9 16:6

237:22

alternative

176:7,9,11

177:20,22 212:6

215:6

alternatives 16:2

226:9,10

am 12:16 14:7,11

16:6,15 59:6,8

89:12 92:3

98:6,22 105:14

113:9 125:17

133:21 199:9

207:12 208:2

209:12,13

214:19 215:10

217:18 224:8,18

226:2,18 255:3

259:14 261:4

288:4 303:22

306:19 307:16

312:19 313:7

329:7

AMCA 55:14

amend 294:22

America 81:15,18

96:4,10,11

American 3:9

among 215:12

220:14

amount 18:21

22:12 33:10

151:10 214:14

221:1 228:4

310:10 326:11

Amrane 2:6 75:15

82:17,21

99:6,11,14,17

125:19 127:4

137:5,9,10,22

157:17

173:11,19 180:6

182:11 202:5

205:22 206:3,6

208:18 209:5

218:4,8,17

219:16,20

220:5,7,9

224:7,12,16

226:16 230:2

231:9,14 236:22

238:22 239:10

241:6 246:9,11

248:10 249:4

257:6 277:21

278:4 326:1,5

ANC 194:2

and/or 175:20

annual 19:1 38:2

42:21 61:8 62:14

69:6 84:13

118:17 119:7,12

130:1 134:2

212:16,22 213:6

290:9 299:8,9

annually 61:2

118:21,22 119:3

221:14

answer 33:11 38:7

69:1,3,22 143:18

149:9 170:7

203:2 207:19

216:8 217:22

245:22 261:19

279:5 280:17

281:15 313:7,17

323:4 325:16

answering 310:11

answers 319:3

anybody 16:3

51:16 55:18 65:9

76:18 113:13

124:14 126:15

136:9 138:2

146:14,15 147:5

192:6,7 231:20

239:19 265:16

296:19

Anyhow 188:17

anymore 153:21

158:4 275:7

301:7

anyone 17:14

56:13 123:13

140:13 215:21

216:13 219:1

anything 23:6 44:4

48:15 51:16

71:19 75:3 76:7

93:16 112:11

125:11 128:20

140:20 143:1

153:19,22

159:13 192:1

203:12 253:18

283:21 284:1

290:1 319:5

anytime 303:2

anyway 46:22

232:5 265:3,11

294:15

anywhere 23:12

33:19

apologize 209:3

appears 13:21

appliance 1:3

169:18,20

171:5,6 177:5

328:10

appliances 142:20

143:2,8 170:17

applicable 120:17

122:2 126:2

179:19 189:8

249:1

application 41:17

applications 6:13

applied 5:7 9:9

181:3

applies 6:8 32:3

124:7 173:8

177:13 285:6

apply 16:11

168:14 174:20

177:12 190:19

216:17 314:3

appointment

254:15 257:15

appreciate 169:5

249:7 254:5

approach 181:17

212:6 215:7

225:14 309:4

appropriate 11:22

17:8 151:15

216:4

approval 14:22

19:4 41:5 58:8

84:12 93:12

102:9 131:15

134:20 141:15

147:5 174:6

322:22 323:1

approvals 115:8

approve 52:10
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84:12 85:1 110:8

approved 25:3

33:8 35:20

37:12,20 61:6

84:10,11 85:7

126:19,21 127:5

131:18 138:14

180:19 181:9

223:19 282:12

300:16 318:5

approving 55:5,6

131:19 192:8

area 13:2 148:3

areas 119:9

aren't 17:20 46:19

80:10 85:13

105:12 155:1,5

186:16 194:16

196:17

argue 179:22

arguing 180:10

argument 322:5

ARHI 146:15

178:19 186:14

Aris 3:4

Armstrong 2:8 6:6

10:15 11:8 16:13

17:12 23:19

24:18 25:6,11,18

26:9,20

27:2,10,15,20

29:2,6,17,22

31:8 32:19 33:1

35:17,20

36:3,6,9,16

37:4,14 38:9

39:8 40:5,13

41:15 42:2,6

43:4 45:6,9,15

46:9,13,16,21

47:8,13,19,21

48:2,5,13,19

49:5,15,19

50:7,15

52:7,14,18,20

53:3,8,12,15,21

54:7,12,22

55:9,20

56:6,8,10,17,22

57:6,9,17

58:2,4,14,18

59:2,8,13,15,19

63:15 64:6,14,17

65:14,19 66:6

67:2,17,20

68:1,10 69:8,21

70:4,7

71:1,7,11,16

72:2,7,21

73:3,10,22

74:6,9

77:5,11,14,18,20

78:1,3,6,13,17

79:13 80:6,13,21

81:3,6,10,16

82:14,20 83:1,14

87:4,6,13

89:2,5,9 91:6

92:20 93:9 94:21

95:4,16 96:8,12

97:5,9,19

98:4,18

99:4,10,12,15

100:5,15

101:1,8,13

102:12,21

103:5,10

104:2,6,20

105:10,18,21

106:7,17 107:12

109:5,8,10,12

110:4,7,11,15,18

111:1,13,22

112:4,7,11,17,21

113:16 116:6,22

117:7,10

118:18,22

119:17 120:4,21

123:1,7,10

124:13 126:15

127:14,20

128:7,18 129:13

132:21

133:5,10,18

134:6 157:11,13

158:1,5 159:20

160:8,12

161:8,17

162:2,13,20

167:13,17

168:2,16,22

169:4,8,12

170:5,15,22

171:7,14,18,22

172:3,8 173:2

174:1,4,12,14

175:11,16

176:2,6,13,16,18

,22 177:9 178:7

179:4,9

180:3,8,18

181:11,22

182:9,14,18

183:2,7,14,17

184:1,5,12,20

186:3,6

187:10,12,15,20

188:1,6,13,15,17

,22 189:7,16,20

190:6,12

191:1,22

192:5,16,20

193:1,7

194:11,18 195:2

198:14,20 199:5

200:18 201:1,20

202:2,6,13

203:2,5,9,12,15

204:9,18

205:5,21

206:2,5,9

207:9,16,20

208:7,9,13,22

209:16

210:7,9,11,15,18

,21 211:16,19,22

212:3 213:21

215:21 216:3,13

217:10,12

218:7,15,18

219:9 220:6,8,13

221:4,7,12 222:7

223:17 224:3,15

225:1 226:7,22

227:17 241:8,22

242:3,9 243:16

244:5,13,21

245:21

246:4,13,18

247:2,11,15,18,2

2 248:3,13

249:5,10

251:1,5,10,17

252:6,9,11,14,20

253:7

254:2,10,18

255:7 256:4,9,16

257:3,8

258:1,6,8,14,17,

19,21 259:2,22

260:4,10,16

262:8,10,14,16,2

0 263:6,15,18,19

264:17 266:12

267:12

268:13,16,20

269:1,5 270:22

271:15,18

272:6,9,18

273:1,4,12,15,19

274:10,18

277:4,20

278:7,16

279:1,5,11

280:7,14,17

281:15,21
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282:4,9,21

283:2,7,9,16,18

284:4,7,11,19

285:8,12,17

286:2,4,6,10

287:3,10,17

288:1,11,15

291:17,21 292:8

294:13,22

295:11,17

296:1,17

297:1,5,15,21

299:15,18

300:8,12

301:1,8,15,18,21

302:13,15,17,21

303:3,6,11,13

304:14,17,21

307:14,20 308:9

309:5 310:3,6

311:11,18

312:14,18

313:1,21

315:2,16,21

316:3,8,11,17

317:3,16,19

318:22 319:15

320:5,16 321:16

322:3,8,12,20

323:9,15 325:12

326:7,22 327:3,7

arranged 246:1

295:10

arrangement

56:14

arrives 306:12

articulating 29:18

Ashley 2:8 26:4

28:21 40:4,9

45:8 57:5,20

60:4 70:2 88:21

99:20 218:20

226:3 227:13,16

241:8 262:6,7

282:14 297:3

Ashley's 98:6

ASHRAC 230:12

ASHRAE 229:14

ASHRE 182:22

aside 17:9

aspect 205:8

aspects 127:20

128:3 205:6

aspersions 59:4

ASRAC 227:3,7

230:13,14

232:16,19 233:9

244:5

252:2,6,17,18,21

253:5,9,11,19,21

259:8,15 261:17

262:12 270:4

271:16,22

ASRAC's 234:1

ASRAE 212:1

as-received 134:11

assessment 73:15

75:2,9 144:10

146:4 224:1,5

281:17 284:3,4

300:17

assistance 19:11

240:4

assume 29:2 31:22

51:1 112:1 140:1

184:7,15 225:22

assumed 210:20

assuming 291:12

assumption 87:15

224:3

assurance 15:4

62:15 69:17

70:19 125:10

135:4 199:9

200:7,10

assures 125:10

assuring 195:6

Atlanta 241:1,3

atomically 180:1

attainable

229:16,17

attempt 16:6

attend 261:17

attention 179:1

182:20

attributes 169:13

audio 5:16 6:3

audit 30:6 46:1

58:9 72:11,12,18

73:8,14,15,20

74:4,15,17,21

114:18 118:17

141:9 186:13

301:12,17

audited 119:1

185:9

auditing 48:14

61:9

auditors 127:5,6

audits 48:17 118:9

195:16,19,22

August 1:10 11:14

228:4 232:10,22

241:15,19,20

242:6,9,11,17

245:15,17,18

249:15 250:6,7,8

266:15

267:3,5,22

270:10

auspices 111:9

130:22

authorities 291:22

authority 168:10

185:6 205:3

authorization 43:9

44:11 52:1 60:6

authorizations

123:13

authorized 19:16

113:3 174:8,10

authorizing

306:19

automatic 171:1

automatically

101:17

availability 238:13

available 12:20

65:15,16 81:13

94:12 151:7

202:10 230:18

231:1,3 236:1

237:4 238:19

242:17 243:22

259:18 274:18

275:10

276:13,19

average 212:15

avoid 251:21

avoiding 124:9

avoids 124:1

aware 169:4

212:20 290:19

away 105:4

113:8,14 125:11

163:14 182:10

227:3,4,5,6,7

246:10 276:13
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awesome 240:10

awful 207:6

Aye 258:11

B

baby 280:4

backlog 63:1

backwards 57:22

bad 53:15 61:17

223:16

balance 64:20

128:10 166:8,9

215:22

Ballo 2:9 74:20

90:12,13 91:3

155:13 266:14

272:13,17,20

274:16 280:9,15

298:1

bar 11:13

Barhydt 2:10

4:2,9 11:17

16:16 17:13,17

18:2 19:18,22

21:9 22:4,8,19

23:1 24:2,16,20

25:8,16 27:13,19

41:22 53:18

71:21 72:17 73:1

80:11 89:4

92:12,14,22

93:13,16,20 98:3

105:20 108:7

109:11 112:8

121:5 124:12,21

128:21 129:1,3,6

130:10 131:7

134:1 140:22

142:22

148:5,7,17 149:9

156:1,15,18

157:8,12,14,19

158:3,7,11,19

159:1,15,18

166:12 167:9

168:14 169:10

172:14,22

173:3,14,20

176:14 181:6,20

183:3,5

187:11,17

188:14,16

189:12,17

190:11,14,17

191:16,21

197:14 198:2

202:14

203:10,14,17

204:1,5 209:20

210:4 220:4

221:3 222:9

224:11 229:4

230:9,14

231:8,13,17,21

232:13

236:3,8,15,20

237:3

238:2,4,7,10,12

239:1,19,22

240:4,9,15

241:2,4,7,10,19

242:7,17,21

243:5,13,15

244:1,3,10,19

245:1,7,17

249:12

250:5,8,15,19

252:7,10,13

253:2,4 254:22

259:17,21

260:3,18 262:2

264:3,8,11

265:13

266:8,10,13,17

268:3,6,9

271:3,11 272:22

273:6,9,13,17,20

274:3 276:22

277:5,18,22

278:12,17

279:14,21 280:1

282:7 283:12,19

284:5,8 285:6

286:1,5,16

287:18

288:2,13,22

290:10 292:7,20

293:1 294:7

295:3,14

296:3,12,20

297:10,13,16,19,

22 298:5,14,16

299:7,9,16,20

300:9 301:16

303:4 304:7,10

305:6,20

306:2,6,8,13,16

307:8,17

308:2,10,20

309:1,4,17

310:5,10,20

311:2,5,8,20

312:1 322:11

328:8

barriers 88:5

base 6:16 7:1,15

9:8

based 49:12 87:15

112:13 132:19

203:3 209:22

227:10 235:1

292:22 294:16

325:21

basic 60:12 80:1

177:1 181:2

187:17

206:8,11,12,16,1

7 207:8,11

208:18

209:6,12,14,21

211:4,5,14,22

212:9 213:15

214:1,2,3,8

216:2

217:1,2,5,15,17,

21 218:5,8,10,11

219:18,22

221:21 223:13

225:12,17 227:4

253:18

298:14,15,18

299:1 300:1

325:20

basically 8:2,4

9:22 31:10 45:5

67:19 73:17

75:21 84:15,20

97:13,21 108:6

120:6 143:19,22

145:11 212:2

274:19 277:9

basis 15:15 100:1

103:18 134:2

195:18

Bauman 2:11

31:1,9 37:10,17

38:12 39:20 40:3

44:22 45:7,10,14

48:22

53:1,5,11,14

57:20,21

58:3,10,17 60:2

62:5,20

64:10,15,19

65:5,20 70:2,5,9

71:2 91:10

93:18,21

94:4,8,11,16

95:1,5 99:20

107:4

109:7,9,18,20

110:14,17

119:19 120:6
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121:12 123:5,9

124:2,5 146:19

147:8,14,16

160:11,20

161:1,6,9,16

193:3,8,22

196:7,19 199:17

201:4,19,22

253:22

Baumann 93:18

bay 128:11

bears 295:4

become 38:9 42:19

95:22 184:8

285:18 295:15

310:20

becomes 5:19 35:6

41:4 213:1,7

296:4 310:22

becoming 39:21

beginning 155:18

168:20 210:19

behalf 306:19

307:1,2

behind 109:4

believe 12:6 30:16

71:22 75:16

120:2,10

125:13,14 147:4

197:18 200:10

205:3

Beloit 4:13 9:19

belong 34:16 35:4

211:7

benefit 19:3,10

90:5 91:14

besides 76:8 95:2

best 10:19 16:7

104:6 169:2

222:11 319:7

bet 70:18

better 55:21 60:16

101:6 120:8

125:10 148:21

153:6 199:18,22

217:4 220:10

223:12

285:12,15

beyond 15:17 27:9

99:7 121:5

130:12

bigger 9:2 146:8

160:5 164:14

213:22 214:1

281:10 303:22

Bill 3:18 45:16

82:18 123:20

129:14 135:22

bit 45:17 103:15

116:21 121:10

125:20 129:16

148:21 154:14

157:2,6 200:19

201:6 214:1

225:8 231:2

324:14

blood 175:13

blow 260:10

blue 280:4

blunt 178:12

blurred 154:1

board 24:14 60:3

79:16 247:12

248:21 278:14

Bob 76:5 82:7 83:7

150:12 151:16

181:16 225:11

265:8

bodies 100:2

102:15 174:21

176:1 183:19

184:13 196:20

body 25:21 33:14

36:7 38:10 47:6

54:1,9,13 55:22

84:4 125:16

126:2,3 134:17

175:5 183:22

184:7 190:18

196:16

boiled 85:4

boiler

14:1,15,17,20

15:5 16:21

17:7,10 23:4

32:17,22 162:19

171:13 172:1

202:7 203:20

268:19,20 269:1

boilers 12:11,19

13:17,19

22:20,22 23:3,17

32:16,21

43:11,16 112:15

113:5 160:6,22

162:9,11,22

163:3 165:5,6

171:12 202:8,20

268:21

booked 232:4

236:13 238:7

bookmark 191:19

Boston 87:21

113:9

bottom 49:8

53:11,12 74:2

112:3 312:5

bought 154:22

163:17

box 152:22 153:2

301:14

Boy 283:11

brander 287:13

branding 287:12

288:5

brand-new 80:1

break 71:8,9 116:9

149:13 219:10

222:10,12

225:4,9,11

breaker 323:11

brief 71:17 225:5

227:20

252:17,21

briefing 253:5

bring 86:12 98:14

130:6 144:14

169:2 194:14

201:9 204:14

216:21

305:12,13

314:10 321:14

327:14

Bringing 194:13

brings 306:11

broader 324:17

Brooks 16:15

165:7

brought 23:20

35:12 37:18 49:1

84:9 85:20

192:13 310:18

btu 20:9 32:17

bucket 133:11

buckets 46:22

208:1

210:11,12,13

budget 61:14,15
Capital Reporting Company

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budgets 78:13

build 23:6,7 79:9

80:1 91:11

136:14,15,16,18

137:3 150:19,20

155:6,17,20,21

163:5,13 164:9

207:10

317:13,17

building 32:17

81:1 144:4,19

151:22 154:12

221:22

builds 92:4 137:21

222:1

build-to-order

18:14 23:17

built 23:5 29:9

36:13 132:19

136:13

137:13,16

149:10 150:5

151:1 154:14

156:16 157:3,14

159:11 163:3

273:21 274:7

275:1 281:4

285:4,22 313:8

327:18,22

built-to 149:15

150:1,16

152:1,19 155:17

156:8 157:6

158:17 163:7

164:10 204:2

built-to-order

137:21 149:8

150:10,17,22

152:3 154:3,21

155:15,20

156:2,12

158:13,19 159:2

160:18 161:11

166:7

built-to-stock

150:15

157:1,2,5,10

163:5 204:3

bulbs 208:11

bullet 45:19 46:8

50:21 51:22

63:21 71:12

72:4,8 73:8

76:13,15 78:16

83:17 86:4

99:2,3 103:5

105:19,21 106:8

107:20 109:16

110:20 113:1

118:19 119:18

130:11 133:15

136:3,8 148:18

149:6 156:13

158:8

bullets 104:18

109:7 116:21

bunch 166:10

burden 21:10 84:6

87:12 90:15

108:1 138:10

194:13

bureaucrats 50:18

BUS 168:20

business 8:2 88:10

103:3 212:16,21

213:3,7,14

businesses 63:18

busy 240:7

butter 203:8

buy 56:14 163:16

281:6,8

314:16,17

buying 315:12

C

CAC 180:4

calculations

186:18

calendar 236:22

268:15 271:3,4

calendars 237:22

268:12

calibrated 13:9

20:3 144:7,15

calibrating 106:15

calibration 21:21

53:6 134:9,10,11

145:9 177:16

calibrations 20:16

106:22

California 39:22

40:1 43:11 44:16

48:7,8,9,14

50:13,19 58:20

65:11 279:8

cancelled 270:22

cancelling 231:19

Canon 194:10

cap 214:14,15

capabilities 12:17

119:13 131:16

303:21

capability 12:18

13:1 95:16 105:6

capable 43:19 61:3

118:10 175:6

200:17

capacity

13:17,19,22 14:2

95:2,14,22

165:13

Capital 1:17

capped 209:22

capture 90:5

captured 89:18

care 7:17 173:19

200:9

careful 101:6

103:7 218:1

258:12

carefully 182:20

185:14

carried 146:1

carrier 3:20 6:12

82:7 150:13

181:16

carries 85:6

122:21

carry 123:4 139:3

283:2

carrying 60:5

case 62:8 63:18

74:11 94:8 119:7

126:13 130:3

131:19 132:12

158:16 208:5,13

213:13 243:16

275:10,13

300:12

cases 23:7 94:6

169:19 315:11

319:2

case-specific

248:22

catalog

153:10,12,16

156:2,3

catalogs 152:4
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153:17

categories

76:10,22 79:2

category 48:10

76:4,17,19 78:12

143:9

cause 185:12

217:19

caused 308:8

causes 171:8

cave 216:19

caveat 145:20

CB 45:20

46:11,13,19

47:3,17

54:14,17,18,19,2

0 122:21

CCMS 303:14

CEC 43:16

44:11,12 50:6,16

58:5,12,20 60:22

61:8 65:15

CEE 240:21 241:1

CEFR 176:8

cert 227:3 287:4

certain 8:8 13:16

33:9 44:4 82:13

83:20 108:8

116:17,19 118:7

121:16

131:17,22

197:19 200:13

301:5 314:6

321:3 325:20

326:11

certainly 12:11

13:18 14:19

130:1 136:10

207:6 233:19

270:19 282:15

certainty 38:17

certificate 175:2

176:3 276:20

329:1

certification 5:18

13:14 14:4

15:8,11 17:21

18:8,22

19:5,11,14 25:21

35:7 44:12 50:16

54:1,2,8,9,13

55:22 58:13

60:17,19 64:1,5

65:6 67:19 93:2

97:15 98:1 100:1

102:4 103:1

110:17 114:11

119:7 120:19

121:7 126:2,3,9

130:13,16

131:8,12

132:5,18 142:20

145:22 163:22

164:3 178:15

180:22 188:18

195:17 196:19

197:12 217:3

283:13 290:7

293:6,9 294:21

295:5 304:22

305:10

306:15,20,21

307:4 308:5,6

309:17 326:20

certifications

100:3 205:21

308:12

certified 15:3,10

20:10 40:11 47:6

48:9 95:6 119:3

121:20 125:16

142:19 170:1,16

178:11 187:18

188:19 194:1

196:8,9 207:22

287:14,21 288:9

292:8

certifier 290:14,22

295:20

296:15,21 307:1

certifies 55:14

287:16

certify 19:20 20:15

31:5,17 32:5,6

37:20 52:11

62:18 120:9

122:10 155:19

178:5 181:1

289:8 291:17

292:3,12,18,22

296:2,20 300:1

303:21

305:20,21

306:16,17 308:8

329:4

certifying 120:1,5

122:1 125:22

188:2 196:9,16

288:11 291:14

292:12 294:14

296:4,5 304:3

certitude 166:5

certs 253:17

cetera 121:4 157:4

170:1 181:4

228:21

CFR 6:21 175:1

183:1,3 185:18

chain 275:19

315:20

challenge 63:19

challenges 63:3

165:8

chance 4:4 128:11

149:1

change 14:19 59:9

134:15 158:12

159:3 254:14

285:2,3 286:8

291:3 293:11

294:5,6 296:3

301:19 303:1,4

306:10 308:4

316:4

changed 187:2

293:14 321:5

changes 12:9

14:17,19 134:16

180:13 201:9

305:16,17

306:12

changing 254:15

291:9 302:19

309:14,15

characteristics

104:8 207:17

characterized

169:14

characterizes

50:1,3

charge 316:15

charges 139:13

Charles 2:18

Charlie 133:13

145:18 182:19

196:5 197:3

Charlie's 143:18

147:1

cheaper 48:1

cheat 43:19

cheating 135:8
Capital Reporting Company

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check 18:18 21:21

22:6 44:3

61:9,20 66:22

68:22 121:8

163:10 173:20

197:17 235:22

236:2 269:14

282:18 285:19

291:4,16 301:13

315:4

checked 47:4

checking 58:21

281:21

checklist 22:15

46:1,3 107:2

129:14

checks 61:15 62:1

198:11

chocolate 202:17

203:6

choice 21:11

96:17,19 97:2

274:6 316:14

choose 28:5 96:14

131:3 260:2

chooses 111:20

choosing 322:2

Chorus 244:15

chosen 66:10

Christine 1:16

329:2,15

circulate 194:18

200:20

circulated 221:7,9

circumstance

295:8 318:18

city 294:1

clarification 50:21

51:9 95:13 193:4

clarify 42:10

146:20 230:3

class 12:11 52:4

54:6 209:19

211:15,20,21

213:22

214:10,15,16

217:20,21

222:1,3

classes 92:3

210:21 211:1

213:19 219:7,8

221:16

classification

204:8

classifications

122:16 204:19

clean 320:15

clear 24:14 25:17

51:10 64:7

130:10 149:16

274:1 280:9

clearer 152:17

clearly 5:4

Cleaver 16:15

165:6

Cleaver-Brooks

3:6 165:8

Cleveland 236:7

clicks 53:19

client 18:6 21:15

140:16 141:6,15

142:15 193:13

194:5

ClimateMaster

3:21 83:12

104:15 138:13

climb 216:19

close 43:5 225:4

closer 201:9 202:1

227:1

closing 154:11

Co 3:5

coated 280:5,6,8

code 280:20

281:12 282:5

283:20 288:2

coil 214:7 280:5,6

311:15

coils 214:4,5 280:8

311:12

colleagues 152:16

collect 140:19

141:2,7

collecting 141:3

Collin 3:19

color 318:20

Combi 171:12

172:1

combination 25:9

168:3 177:4

combinations

152:6,11

combine 170:17

combined 142:20

143:2,8

combining 197:2

comes 37:15 66:21

129:22 171:18

188:18 195:18

200:12 286:22

295:16

comfortable 21:11

59:10 112:6,14

135:19 149:3,4

156:8 211:10

229:13 302:5

323:6

coming 83:9 88:13

91:18,20 97:8

107:3 122:8

151:8 180:22

197:9 198:7

241:8 264:13

272:20 313:9

316:11

command 38:2

comment 10:4

24:15 45:15

73:22 161:19

comments 10:3

40:20 83:16

226:14 231:18

commerce 89:10

188:9 189:3

282:20 285:13

300:2

commercial

8:7,15,16,18,20

14:15 34:15

39:21 45:2

76:6,9

77:2,4,7,10,12,1

5,21 78:2 80:4

95:11 99:21

112:14

138:16,17,18

158:11 160:6,19

161:22 163:4

170:19 171:1,2

172:18 183:13

201:10

212:19,21,22

213:2 214:11

219:15 246:22

286:12,13

293:17

319:6,8,11
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327:19

commercially

288:19

Commission 43:11

48:7

Commission's

48:8

commitment

234:2

committee 1:4

228:6 231:10,12

234:22 236:19

252:5,18,21

253:6,9 328:12

common 11:3

152:4,5 313:4

Commonly 144:9

communicate

231:4,5

communication

290:21 302:2

companies 12:17

83:21 84:2 87:20

115:1 193:12

207:3 289:20

296:13 324:20

company 1:17

2:20 19:3 31:6

61:22 63:13

70:17 81:2

106:20 108:20

122:8 135:17

137:21 139:17

140:1 149:21

153:8 164:20

176:20,22

195:17 207:5,14

209:8 256:22

289:9 297:6,8,9

306:3,4,11,14,19

307:2,6,13 325:1

company-owned

275:12

compare 18:3 21:5

47:22 218:5

compared

207:5,12

comparison 6:19

compete 215:15

competence 126:8

130:2 133:20

competency

31:6,19 32:6

37:21 60:10

119:22 122:9

128:2 190:20

competent 13:8

121:1 135:1

148:15 190:4,18

competition 9:19

competitive

9:15,16

competitors 65:17

complaint 283:10

284:11

complaints 282:16

complete 153:11

completely

79:11,15 120:12

124:1 142:14

151:9 153:4

159:8 179:21

185:3 196:21

237:14 326:15

complex 150:4,5

compliance 13:11

61:10 88:7 144:9

145:10 174:18

289:10 307:18

310:1

compliant

36:15,19 288:1

289:18,19

307:15

complicated 170:7

219:15 323:18

325:15

complication

274:9 319:5

comply 61:16

components

155:3,5 157:4

196:9

comprehensive

134:20

compressors 155:2

compromise 73:6

223:4

concept 4:14 7:21

208:18 282:12

concepts 273:16

concern 13:18

16:20 62:22

64:12 71:2,5

74:21 82:11

113:7 282:15

284:1 302:1

concerned 14:11

23:3 59:17,18,20

70:16 92:4

125:17 166:22

173:6 277:11

concerns 14:9

17:2,19 77:3

85:6 171:8 201:5

207:3

condition 5:6

45:20

conditioner

170:12 172:18

conditioning

171:5

conditions 173:7

186:15

conduct 22:17

36:11

conducted 16:10

43:14 74:13,14

119:4,8 161:10

conducting 12:16

51:20 90:15,16

185:15

conference 5:13

241:1

confidence 27:8,21

29:5,10 34:10

40:12,13 41:2,18

46:5 90:19

103:21 115:2,17

144:4

confident 40:16

configuration 86:8

124:8

configure 150:19

confirm 134:5

conflict 124:9

conflicting 116:7

conformity 144:9

146:4

confused 33:18

295:6

confusing

206:10,21

confusion 217:19

218:3 308:9,10

consensus 229:15
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

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consequences

61:13,19 75:14

conservation

193:15

consider 204:16

207:4 213:18

279:18 311:3

318:4 319:21

considerable 15:9

considered 153:21

213:13 276:7

considering 24:22

165:4 229:18

considers 276:1

consistent 109:21

consistently

233:11

constantly 284:16

287:1

constraining 44:2

constraints 95:2

Consulting 2:3,14

3:8,19

consumer 200:2

307:12

consumers 89:13

contact 153:11,13

contemplating

25:4

continually

14:16,20

continue 83:9

229:22 230:6

233:15 235:2

290:14,18

continue/repeat

12:14

contract 87:7

contracts 309:9,12

310:8

contractual

309:20

control 277:8

294:11 296:11

controlled 116:5

controlling 302:2

controls 39:19

130:18

converge 202:3

conversation 5:12

9:18 28:20 137:8

167:11

convey 89:20

convinced 88:17

cooling 2:16

177:5,8

coordinate 34:8

copy 157:22

306:18

corning 172:6

corollary 55:13

95:12

Corporation

3:11,20

correct 53:1 57:16

89:1 94:11

100:17 140:3

175:22 182:16

192:20 268:11

277:20

correctly 69:4,18

85:5 108:3

111:17 133:22

correlation 62:10

63:8 144:20

corridor 87:21

cost 18:2,3,17

21:5,13,18 23:11

38:2 60:15 62:10

72:16 88:9 91:17

95:19 96:1,7,22

118:3 190:20,21

274:9 314:14

316:16

cost-effective

199:6

costly 31:22 61:17

63:9 64:21 68:6

costs 15:13 18:7

37:22 63:11 68:4

70:13 155:10

316:2

Council 3:9

country 59:6 88:1

113:10 115:11

255:15 265:4

278:22 305:12

couple 10:16 83:16

103:14 167:12

207:16 270:9

course 8:11 46:5

83:6 281:11

292:13

Court 160:3 191:5

329:1,2,15

cover 45:20 81:20

167:2

212:10,11,12

247:12 316:1

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covered 39:18

45:18 46:15

55:16 79:10

130:7 165:5

167:6,7 168:9

169:16,17

187:7,8,12,15

covering 13:13

14:3

CRACs 78:1

cranes 154:12

crazy 45:7

CRE 35:5

192:2,12

193:9,12 201:21

210:20 211:1

246:2 248:16

cream 200:3

create 141:21

165:18 166:2

302:3

creating 140:12

credentials 85:7

credibility 85:15

credible 88:15

credit 215:7

crediting 56:4

credits 54:16

crews 153:20

criteria 13:6

108:10 109:16

155:16 202:18

323:8 325:19

critical 212:7

crossed 74:2

CSA 2:17 3:12

22:14 35:22

100:16 101:22

105:3,5 108:16

114:6 122:13

127:2,6 132:4

147:18 174:17

175:3 197:5

236:7
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current 146:12

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36:21 37:7 44:13

45:12 46:19

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52:13 54:10

66:19 67:6

69:6,19 77:9

97:3,7,16 127:17

133:7 192:18

194:14,21

196:16 197:1,22

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199:2,14 200:10

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210:19,22

239:16 246:1,5

312:8 313:17

320:6 321:1,18

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51:12,21

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57:14 58:8,17

59:6 61:2,4,7,19

64:3,6,8,18

65:4,6,8,22

66:8,15,18 67:11

68:7,9,12 69:1

70:10,18 75:21

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103:1,21 116:4

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144:22

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147:1,4,10,21

148:3,15 166:3

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198:10 219:1

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326:19 327:4

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date 12:17 132:17

227:6 237:18

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271:1,19,20

272:11 281:12

285:7,14

299:10,13

dates 235:14 236:8

237:1 239:12

240:13 242:7,15

244:3 253:17

257:7 267:2

271:8

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136:19,22

176:19 224:13

232:14 233:14

237:7,12 239:13

242:2 243:8

244:10,11

250:10,19,20

251:22 252:5

257:17

259:8,15,17

260:20 261:2,7,9

262:3 263:1,21

264:5,6,13,14,16

265:1 266:22

267:1,4,6,7,9,22

270:7,16,17,18,2

1 271:5

299:13,19

303:3,6

days 8:2 163:15

224:20 225:7

234:13 240:13

241:14,21

244:21 245:1,11

253:13 254:9

255:6,7,18,20

256:2,3,5,22

257:18 259:9

260:15 261:21

265:7,13

266:6,8,9,17,18

268:1,2,8 271:21

deal 31:7 79:14,18

80:11,15 113:19

160:4,5 202:8,9

281:10 323:11

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298:10 314:2

324:9

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322:12

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173:9

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276:11

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210:19 216:9,22

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defined 5:4 88:15

153:9 156:1

207:4,11 209:14
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definite 254:11

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125:5 147:11

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247:12 248:12

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311:21 312:14

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168:4,12 217:5

219:17 221:9

247:5 248:22

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Degitsz 2:14

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146:9 234:1

degrees

201:8,14,15

delay 226:15

delayed 154:8

delays 154:5

delete 158:10

deleted 75:19

deliver 138:9

230:6

delivery 92:10

demand 154:11

department 1:1,6

2:8,10,12 3:4

40:10 41:13,20

59:4,22

66:13,14,18

68:11 73:18 75:8

79:17 183:6

223:19 284:5

291:4 327:5

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113:7

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23:10,13 129:21

142:16 204:21

214:3 228:7

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depends 28:21

150:21 152:10

204:10

287:14,17

305:15,16

depleting 299:4

depth 115:12

derailed 16:19

derailing 91:9

descending 38:17

describe 191:11

200:20 274:21

described 30:1

57:15,16

describing 289:13

description 286:22

descriptive 156:10

design 14:17,20

151:14 180:14

314:3

designation 101:5

designing 201:12

designs 9:9

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detail 62:7 126:16

182:20

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234:2

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225:16

deterrence 88:15

develop 15:13

146:13,16

151:10 177:4

191:16

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89:12 146:3,13

303:20

development 3:6

12:21 152:20

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57:12 88:22

106:5 121:13

125:8 130:16,21

131:9 132:10

138:16 140:9,21

141:4 149:10,22

150:8,10,14

161:9,12,15

163:1,2 164:22

194:22 197:3

198:15 271:17

290:6 317:3

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233:20

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27:22 30:6

32:10,14 33:18

34:5 37:3 38:10

41:11 45:11

46:13 47:9 52:4

54:12 55:5,9

72:6 74:16 76:22

92:3 106:7 107:7

108:10

110:15,18

112:12 121:11

123:14 124:4

131:11 133:15

136:11 142:7

144:1,3 150:15

151:6,7,8,9

152:1 154:4

157:6,7

160:1,9,13,14,17

165:2,14 166:4

169:10,16,17

170:10,17 171:4

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179:16,21 182:5

185:1,2,4 186:4

192:2 196:20,22

197:22 200:12

201:8 209:7

213:16 215:6
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217:6,7 220:11

222:6 229:7

235:9,22 238:13

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273:15 278:7,8

279:5 289:12

298:11 301:9

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306:17 307:14

317:13,14

318:10 325:5

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282:1

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280:22 283:5

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direction 316:20

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122:20 125:16

141:17 142:11

197:20 234:21

directory 276:21

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disagree 76:18

149:19 160:22

234:10 235:5

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282:17 302:10

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275:3,16 276:7,9

277:1,11,19

278:2

280:1,18,21

281:9 283:14

288:5 290:17

300:20,22 301:2

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275:11

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277:15 299:2

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220:11 259:19

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10:2,11 14:11

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28:14 30:22

48:18 52:19

53:20 56:21 77:7

80:14 81:5 97:12

101:10 102:13

106:12,16

120:20 126:11

129:16 148:19

149:20 161:7

167:22 182:4

187:7 188:4

192:1 201:6

203:20 217:9

223:1 233:15

239:6 243:20

244:12 245:4

250:22 255:13

258:15 260:21

261:6 265:20

266:1 267:14

269:7 271:6

311:10 316:18

318:9 327:15

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233:11

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distributed 89:10

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275:13 279:11

300:1

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314:11,14

315:8,16 316:12

317:2 319:22

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divide 269:16

division 212:1

Dixie 298:9

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document 127:4,5

153:6 173:21

174:19 227:16

documentation

18:1,22 22:2

30:5,8 31:14

37:21 174:7

187:3

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32:11 185:14

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175:4 200:20

231:9,16

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25:2,14,18

27:7,8,10

28:3,4,11 31:21

32:3,7 33:5,9

34:22 37:5,8,20

38:9 39:21 41:6

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57:9,13 58:6,8

59:7

60:6,7,11,13,18

61:9 62:11 63:6

64:1,3 65:3,8,16

66:8 67:19 68:9

72:10 74:14 75:1

80:2,14 81:11

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97:14

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107:5,22 108:5,6

113:16 115:6

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119:1 133:3

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167:8 168:9

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172:16,22

173:16,17

174:1,4,14,22

175:20 176:10

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181:1,9,18 182:1
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189:3,8 190:1

191:3,10,13,18

193:15 195:11

196:11 199:18

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220:20,22

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318:4 320:12

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25:19 34:1 181:7

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32:4

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167:19

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168:5

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59:17 62:12

63:11 173:6

276:22 277:19

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111:18

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dollars 18:18

domestic 297:9,10

done 15:12

20:1,19 22:1,7

24:8 34:9 43:10

66:9 69:17 82:4

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92:11 100:1

105:9 106:21

114:21 115:20

124:21 130:5

133:4 136:22

139:9 140:4

149:21 154:9

157:10 164:16

189:6 190:3

206:10 208:21

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249:4 257:6,9

273:1,6 282:11

299:13,18

306:14 307:6

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268:17

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321:9

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Doppel 2:15

177:11 179:7

187:5,21

188:3,11,21

255:19

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214:7

draft 45:3 232:18

233:1 242:5

drafting 228:8

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249:2

drawing 49:15

145:7

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drop 85:4

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dumped 23:17

duplicate 199:3

duplication 308:8

duration 93:1

during 99:15

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232:5 292:13

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earlier 35:12

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200:19 239:12

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259:5 319:14

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easy 155:11 157:5

194:16 229:9

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echo 234:7

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311:7,9

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247:9,19

effect 16:10 144:1

186:8

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effectiveness 74:22

efficiencies 306:15

efficiency 4:20

5:1,5,6,8,20

10:6,14 12:9,10

14:15 15:5 19:8

43:13 89:18

116:18 282:18

285:19,22 289:9

325:22

efficient 5:3 89:21

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125:3 127:9

128:6,8,13,20

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240:12,17

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258:18,20,22

260:22 261:9,11

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263:4,20

264:12,18

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266:5,9,20

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271:7,12

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300:19

301:12,17,19,22

302:8,14,16,20,2

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208:16

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151:3 154:22

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enter 18:17 301:13

entered 28:10
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entire 85:18

entities 205:18

entity 25:20 54:3

55:5,9 56:3 98:5

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198:21,22

EPCA 309:21

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equipment 5:18

7:9 8:7 18:14

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35:12 51:14 53:6

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filing 297:14 308:4

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320:17
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independence

121:17 148:20
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79:20 161:4

198:5 199:12

206:16,17,18,19

209:2,5

218:13,22 219:3

227:12,13

277:15

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197:22 198:1,3

206:12

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216:10 217:22

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325:21

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114:9 121:22

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21:20 161:7

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34:7

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114:19 116:14

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110:13 132:1

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310:22

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159:10

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39:7,15,18 42:15

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15:20

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103:12 113:6

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178:4 275:14

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10:22 70:21 93:5

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258:13

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49:8,9,10,11,13

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115:20 116:1

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25:3,22 35:20

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51:4 61:2

63:7,14 65:4

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106:14 107:22

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32:10 33:7 39:18

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65:3,5,8 75:4
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116:17 118:2,10

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77:15 79:4

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51:14 88:10

102:4 103:1

114:11 115:8

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196:4,14 199:19

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279:16,21

289:1,4 300:14

sales 155:4 212:22

291:4

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318:19

sampling 282:3

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satellite 18:6,16

19:17 39:17

42:18,19,22 44:8

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91:13,14,22

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318:14,18

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184:11

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131:15

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303:14

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saved 158:2

savings 118:4

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SBVUs 77:22

scale 164:13

scenario 147:3

229:19 243:16

308:2 319:11

schedule 154:9

233:12 250:16

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232:11

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38:19,20

39:7,15,17 51:1

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142:19 144:7

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172:15,16

173:15,16,22

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181:13,15

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189:14,15,19

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39:6,14 42:14

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105:21 107:20

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177:21 179:11

239:14,15 252:4

298:22

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sections 21:2

215:12 216:22

217:6

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seeing 5:18,19

121:10 139:5

145:21 243:22
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seem 91:14 104:12

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319:14 320:9

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39:4

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73:17

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153:16 163:11

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289:20 294:3

298:12 305:19

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150:18 151:4

152:4 196:13

222:4 288:18

296:6

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29:7 31:12

43:12,14,18,21

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62:11 66:11,17

67:10 68:8 85:8

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228:5 254:2

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321:20

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103:8 104:17

195:5 221:3

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sent 12:5,13 16:1

48:11,12 84:22

103:14

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129:14 209:4

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269:22

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105:8 162:10,14

170:16 205:7

220:10 229:20

233:22

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80:12 137:11

140:8 157:16

180:11 202:8

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227:14,17

228:13 232:12

235:14

236:11,14

239:13 240:13

242:6 244:6,9,18

250:7,15 254:1

256:13

257:4,10,12

258:20 263:21

267:15 268:1

270:11,18

271:13 272:10

sequence 89:8

serial 132:16

serious 261:1

serve 19:16

174:8,10

service 139:14

200:12

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sets 64:8 101:15

setting 113:12

228:12

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setup 21:22 28:22

46:4 83:4

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166:18 177:18

231:22 240:2,7

243:2 278:21

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Sexton 15:19

16:14

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shame 199:3

share 83:2 104:10

217:8

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Shebik 3:11

192:10 193:11

194:4,13 196:2

197:17 198:6,15

sheet 61:7,8 79:11

134:10

shelf 315:9,13

she'll 327:14

she's 179:1 275:6

285:10

ship 92:7 96:1,6

136:15 154:10

163:20 165:12

209:22 210:1

279:9

shipment 212:14

shipped 205:11,13

shipping 30:17,18
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shocked 234:21

235:4

shopping 34:2

short 68:2 136:20

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sides 40:15 215:15

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108:9,11,14,21

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151:10 228:4

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100:2 138:13

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180:13 184:22

185:1 204:12

221:22 225:15

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298:8

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163:12,16 177:7

simulation 88:7

simultaneous 10:2

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48:18 52:19

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97:12 101:10

102:13

106:12,16

120:20 217:9

239:6 243:20

244:12 245:4

250:22 255:13

258:15 260:21

261:6 265:20

266:1 267:14

269:7 271:6

311:10

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198:16

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site 100:21 105:22

133:18 181:14

193:19 316:12

317:21,22 318:5

321:5,17

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sits 165:10

sitting 132:13

155:2,5 207:5

situation 6:19

54:18 105:20

115:10 117:3,14

138:1,3,13 172:2

213:16 285:10

298:9

situations 95:21

205:4

six 17:5 32:8 49:6

155:7

197:7,10,18

198:7

size 8:8 9:15

12:11,19 76:11

95:2 214:19

324:11

sketchy 269:3

skill 143:2

skip 243:11

skipped 93:19

SKUs 207:6

slapping 311:13

sleep 327:14

slide 11:17 69:14

80:8 105:1

116:11 124:20

128:20

129:15,21 142:9

158:12 162:10

192:1 273:14

311:8

slides 157:10

229:7 233:13

slightly 163:4

187:2

small 8:15 9:10

13:17,22

17:19,20

18:11,14 23:12

59:18 60:1 61:15

63:18 70:12

79:1,7 85:11

86:21 87:20 88:7

90:12 91:12

92:17 155:9

163:12

204:4,5,8,11

205:18

208:2,3,14,17

225:16 248:18

262:16 303:19

smaller 8:7,12 9:7

73:17 83:21 84:7

207:3,4 208:19

323:14

324:13,22

smiles 28:7

Smith 3:12 22:14

so-called 13:1

sold 23:8

152:12,14

293:20

solution 10:18,19

16:18 59:21,22

60:1 88:13

225:15

somebody

44:18,19 54:11

63:6 64:15,22

66:3 67:11

70:10,14 80:5

90:1 108:19

122:10 136:16

147:11 148:9,15

163:18 183:8

192:14 207:13

218:18 221:21

222:1 239:9

248:19 258:8

280:10 282:11

284:13 286:22

304:11 305:1

somebody's 51:12

somehow 37:20
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someone 47:13

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107:16 110:22

116:9 125:13

132:8 136:16

180:4 181:14

218:21 248:18

281:22 286:19

288:5

someone's 179:22

sometime 168:11

227:14 242:10

292:13

somewhat 325:3

somewhere 49:16

138:11 157:21

275:18 306:6,7

sorry 58:3 81:7

92:13 93:20

109:12

112:12,21 191:7

200:1 246:18

250:8 257:11

sort 9:21 15:4

32:14 43:20

74:10 75:17

83:10 131:21

175:7 182:7

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280:10

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sorts 101:17

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sounds 24:2,4,10

33:2 47:5 108:16

244:3 294:15

302:5

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84:11 85:12,18

317:2

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56:4,7,9,12,19

73:11 77:22 91:2

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176:20 180:2

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237:10 239:4

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276:17 280:5

287:16 288:7,19

298:4 299:14

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78:19 81:7 83:22

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320:14

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131:13

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198:11 281:21

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281:22

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227:3,4,5,6

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108:16

120:2,10,16

126:17 148:16

171:12,14,15

175:2 177:4,6

182:2,22 185:7

186:11 199:3

201:7 285:2,6,7

286:8 289:9

standardized 52:4

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13:5 19:13,16

25:1 60:12 90:21

105:16

148:10,12

168:6,9,15 189:1

200:14 205:6

215:14 236:7

286:9 328:11

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73:7,13

74:4,8,10

89:7,15 95:12,18

109:13,19 110:9

113:22

117:1,9,12

118:16,19 119:2

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274:4 278:2,5

290:5,11 291:7

295:6,12

304:2,5,13,16,18

316:20 317:5,7
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327:17 328:3,5

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122:19,20

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105:1 112:2,4

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227:13,17

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234:8 235:12

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264:9 265:1

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113:10 312:17

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142:10 232:19

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248:8 315:19

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17:18 21:1 28:19

29:4,9 30:15

32:8 40:9,10

41:10 59:16

63:16 71:4,14,22

72:3,9,19

73:5,15 75:6

78:22 87:18

91:4,7 103:12

113:6,18 114:4

124:16 142:17

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166:21

167:7,10,16,22

168:19 169:11

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275:14

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279:3,7 287:12

292:5 305:22

306:3,7,9,14

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315:3,6,9

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274:7 275:1

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279:20 281:4

285:10 314:15

320:21

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299:6

stopped

280:12,19,21

287:22 299:3

storage 132:14

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272:14

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stream 12:8

street 122:7

stress 230:15

stretch 266:15

strict 120:15

strike 158:7,9

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stringency 91:1

136:5

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127:15 256:10

struck 58:22

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146:12 163:16

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80:19 86:2 98:21

107:1 126:5

132:17 137:8

160:14 166:10

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276:10 277:6

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123:13,14

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306:19,22

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72:13 140:18,20

145:13 223:7

submitter 55:11

296:22 297:2

307:2

submitting 52:21
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supplementary

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315:8 316:6,8,9

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supply 275:19

314:15 316:4

319:22 320:1

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101:2 112:17

182:15 188:10

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258:1,4

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18:9 21:18,22

22:6,13 25:16

26:1,4 29:11

48:5 49:13 52:7

63:17 68:8 73:19

75:13 80:6 88:11

93:3 101:19

111:16 121:8

127:19 128:5

134:22 135:3,8

139:17 143:19

149:11 150:9

157:8,21 159:12

162:13,15 167:9

173:13

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181:12 195:2

200:5 213:4

217:2 224:18

225:19 236:1

254:4 261:4

286:5 287:6

298:6,16 302:3

322:3 323:15

327:1

survey 12:16

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209:13

swear 61:11

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Syracuse 270:1

system 7:14

139:15

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222:21 302:3,4,6

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197:6

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table 37:19 41:1

45:11 53:9,13

92:15 126:10

150:9 156:8

157:14 220:13

222:8 244:4

255:2 296:14

tables 9:3 205:1

tag 311:13 312:21

taking 37:11 45:14

71:19 103:15

115:22 126:10

132:10 151:6

163:17 320:18

talk 6:5 10:17,22

16:21 23:3 27:3

31:3 33:15 41:3

53:8 62:22 64:6

71:9,19 77:5

80:14 82:8 98:18

107:4 120:7

122:5 129:17

146:11 147:18

149:20 157:15

164:7 167:13,17

184:10 201:5

202:10,14

220:14 222:8

225:8 227:22

228:21 229:1,6

231:1 235:13,15

254:10 260:1

268:21 273:10

286:10

320:3,4,10,12

talked 11:19 32:1

48:16 82:18

145:6 147:17

166:14 181:20

192:19 206:1

225:14 230:16

231:2,22 255:5

327:4

talking 4:11 21:16

24:14,21,22 28:8

31:2 38:22 42:6

48:2 49:9 52:16

54:2 55:17 60:21

68:3 72:4 90:6

98:12 100:5

115:5 117:2

120:15 121:14

122:3 123:11,21
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137:6,19,20

140:11 144:13

145:5 149:11

157:9 160:10,17

161:2,3 164:3

166:16

168:3,7,18

171:14,15

172:10 178:8

183:19 198:4

199:11,21

205:14,17 206:7

212:18 220:1

228:2 230:21

232:18

241:18,19

245:15 246:3

247:7 252:19

253:22 254:7

261:18 264:6

265:17 270:11

272:3 273:21

274:1,5 281:16

282:2,8,9 293:22

294:10 298:17

307:21 311:19

313:2 315:3,6,7

324:5 325:9

328:6

talks 50:5 170:11

tall 96:6

tankless 171:11

target 281:1

tasks 193:20

tax 308:15

taxes 113:11

Teamspace 235:19

technical 32:12

technically 182:11

210:15 252:17

287:19 305:14

technicians 51:2

Technologies 2:21

technology 35:15

87:20 88:22

techs 31:15

telephone 5:13

14:6

temperature

179:12,17

180:12 185:2

199:20 201:11

temperatures

146:10

temporary

182:12,16

ten 9:1 161:4

179:14 199:12

206:16 209:2

221:20

tenants 125:14

tend 122:13

tends 8:6

tentative 237:18

272:11

Tenth 258:21

tents 146:10

term 26:9 46:17

55:21

206:9,13,21

216:1,4,8,9

217:2,4,19

219:7,8 221:18

280:18

terminology

277:14

terms 12:20 49:10

80:10 126:7

130:11 136:5

156:10 192:7

194:20 204:1

206:10,13

211:17 216:2

218:1 221:10

228:1 247:5

249:8

territory 327:12

test 4:19,21,22 5:7

7:7 12:19

13:2,7,8 18:5,6

19:13,14,16,17,1

9 20:1,10,18

21:17,20,22

22:17 23:7

28:1,11 29:10,11

31:10,11,13,17,2

0 32:5,10,11

34:7 36:17

37:5,8 39:18

40:12,13,19

42:16 43:12,21

45:4 46:6 48:10

51:5,20

52:4,5,9,10,20

55:6 58:1 61:3

62:11,18 63:13

64:8 65:3,5

66:15,18,20

67:9,15 68:14,16

69:4,11,12,17

70:10,18

73:10,12 74:5,12

75:2,4 78:21

84:20 85:1 86:8

89:3,16,19

90:3,18,21

91:15,19 94:9,10

95:8,16 96:6

97:6,8

98:10,13,15 99:2

101:12 102:2

103:17,18 104:4

105:22

106:14,22

107:7,10,22

108:3,8,9,11,14

110:1,12,21

111:11,21

113:17

114:10,19,21

117:20 118:2

119:1,4,15,22

121:1,2,3,6,10,1

9 122:9,16,19

123:15

130:1,3,17

131:2,4,12,15,17

,20,22

132:10,11,16

133:12

134:4,14,15,16

136:4

139:10,12,13

140:16,22

141:5,6

143:2,3,6,14

144:18 145:7

148:14,16

154:18 155:6,21

161:6,10,18

163:19 165:13

168:6,8 169:19

171:15

172:12,16,17

173:4,5,8,12,17

174:1,4,9,15

175:17,20

176:7,9,11

177:20,22

178:14,16,21

179:12,16

180:4,13 181:12

182:3,6,10,13,22

183:4,20

184:16,19 185:4

186:14,15

189:3,8 190:3,19

191:13,17,18

193:13 194:3,5
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197:10 198:8,16

201:7,15,17

204:2 205:5

209:10,21

213:8,12 218:12

220:19 224:2

227:5 281:6,9

284:6 285:3

289:19 292:11

301:5 305:1

313:19

317:11,20

319:8,13,16,18

320:10,15 321:2

322:14

324:8,9,16

tested 35:16 42:17

51:1 76:12 85:8

86:2,9 87:11

92:6,9 95:15

96:11 97:10

139:11 140:7

153:3 169:22

170:15 173:7

181:18 189:1

206:4 218:21

223:15

tester 318:15

testing 11:22

12:1,7,8,15,17

13:1,7,14,15

14:4,10,12,13,22

15:3,5,6,12,13,1

7 16:9,10,17

18:3

21:3,4,6,15,20

22:18 23:15,22

24:7,8,9,17

26:12,13,19

27:16,20,22

28:11,18 29:19

30:10 32:4 34:21

35:8 37:3,16

38:18,19

39:6,14,16 42:11

43:8 44:2 49:17

50:22 51:19

53:22 54:4

55:2,3,15,16

56:1 57:11 58:6

60:11 62:2

63:1,22 64:2

65:13,17 66:9

72:14,16

73:16,17 74:22

75:1,9 82:4,10

83:10

84:13,14,15,17,1

8,21 85:20 88:10

89:3,4,6

90:10,15,16,17

91:1 92:8

93:2,10,11 97:14

98:1,10,22

107:11 108:2

114:3,5,9 118:21

124:10 125:15

126:8 128:1

130:13,15,16,19,

22 131:8,9

133:8,9 136:19

137:1,17 143:21

144:8,10,11,19,2

2 145:15 146:4,6

151:16 152:21

153:3 154:4,9

158:5 160:21

163:15 168:15

172:11 175:17

178:1,2 179:14

180:16,22

186:9,10 190:4

192:5,14 193:5,6

195:15 196:21

197:4,15

198:9,11,13,18

199:1,12 201:7

207:12 209:13

211:9 218:22

221:1 223:10

224:5 226:5

273:10,11,21

274:3,5 280:16

281:17 284:3,4

293:7 299:12

300:17

304:11,15 307:7

320:8

testings 195:16

tests 19:20 20:4

27:6 30:5 35:21

36:5,22 42:22

47:11,14,15,16,1

7 63:3 65:7

82:12 90:2,22

94:5 105:6

115:11 118:10

119:9 121:19

130:2 134:20

140:17 177:8

185:15 186:16

205:19 214:7

246:22

thank 45:7 83:15

92:16 135:21

195:3

Thanks 59:2

Tharp 3:17 4:7,12

5:17 6:10

8:13,20 9:1,6,18

76:1 81:9,14,22

87:9,10,14 88:21

100:14 125:7,18

137:6 164:12,22

195:12

236:13,16

237:16 238:20

241:8 274:19

275:22

276:6,8,11,16,18

297:3,6,12

302:18 303:2

319:7,10

That'd 195:2

that'll 149:21

that's 6:14 7:8

8:2,3 9:8 10:7

18:11 21:16

23:22 24:21 25:3

28:8 29:15,19,22

30:14 31:20 34:9

35:4 36:14 39:3

40:15,20 41:13

44:4 51:7 53:1

55:22 56:10

57:15,16 59:15

60:16 62:13

64:20 66:12

67:2,4

69:8,13,22 70:20

73:5,8,14

74:7,11,15,19

76:16 79:21

80:7,21 83:22

86:3 94:14 95:4

96:3,7,9,18 97:9

99:10 100:17

102:8

103:2,3,10,18

105:6,10,18

106:6,7,8,17

109:7 111:12

116:5 119:20,21

120:1,3,8,17

122:10

123:3,7,13

125:17

126:9,10,12

127:1,19 135:18

137:10,11

139:21 140:5

141:5,11,16

142:1 144:6,15

145:6 146:11,12

148:1

151:4,6,9,11
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154:16

156:10,19 157:3

158:20,21

160:9,16 161:1,7

163:5,14,21

164:2,22

167:15,16

168:19

169:10,20

170:10,12 173:8

174:9 175:5

177:9,17 178:16

179:15,17

181:15,22

182:14

183:9,10,16

184:1 185:7,22

187:17

188:5,11,13

193:7,14 194:4,6

196:9 198:15

199:5,10 200:9

202:10,12

204:15,18 205:9

207:20 209:7

217:13 218:15

219:2,4,13 220:6

221:9,15

223:17,21 224:3

227:7 231:21

235:9 237:17

240:20 243:18

246:22 247:2

248:2,3,6,10,20

249:10,17

254:20 260:16

262:18,20 268:9

272:11 274:19

275:22 277:12

280:7 282:12

283:11

286:13,21 291:2

296:15

297:15,16 303:9

304:10

313:10,21

318:10,16,19

319:1,7 321:1,10

322:5,9 323:9

theirs 18:17 30:2

198:5 215:19

288:7

themselves 26:16

34:6,8 47:11

64:5 87:8 124:11

142:11 291:18

292:12

theoretically

175:12

theory 78:18

182:9,15

284:10,13

299:18

thereafter 329:5

Thereby 190:7

therefore 13:11

142:10 165:22

190:19

thereof 184:17

there's 7:2,3,4

33:1 54:9 61:17

68:20 73:13 89:5

112:4 117:7,10

128:16 130:16

131:21 133:21

140:9 142:6,20

143:3 146:7

149:22 150:10

152:6 153:20

155:2 157:1

161:12 162:5

163:1,2,4,6

166:4 167:22

176:16

179:10,11,18

181:17 187:2

197:3 201:9

214:13,15

231:22 260:3,5

269:12 285:9

290:20 300:12

301:4 325:22

they'd 60:16 64:16

200:19

they'll 153:13

185:12 191:13

301:1

they're 20:4 29:14

63:11 69:21

73:19 87:13

91:18,19 92:11

97:13,22 108:3,4

110:17

131:2,18,19

140:13 165:9,12

167:7 168:12

176:13,14,22

182:7 184:15

186:1

190:18,19,22

195:19 196:19

197:9 198:22

199:2 200:13

201:11 205:21

212:10 216:15

218:17 222:4

234:3 261:17

275:18 284:14

287:1 288:22

289:4,21 290:13

292:16

295:14,15,21

296:18,21

304:9,18

309:11,15

318:11

321:16,20

322:1,15,17

324:6 325:1,7

they've 45:5

132:19 316:1

third 18:3,15 21:4

25:7,9

26:5,11,12,13,18

27:6,16 31:4,21

34:1,10 35:7,9

36:1,10 37:17,22

38:2,21

39:2,5,8,16 41:7

42:10,17

43:4,6,16 45:20

46:11 47:10,19

51:19 54:3 55:11

56:3 60:9,17

63:7 66:20 67:9

69:7 71:6 74:13

75:17 80:10

84:10,13,16 87:8

91:20

100:10,12,18

101:2,8,9 103:8

105:4,9,11 106:8

107:14,16

108:1,13

109:2,11,12,14

110:12,20

111:3,10,17

113:1,3

115:16,19 116:7

117:22 118:20

120:15

121:14,18

122:8,14 123:12

130:22

131:15,18

133:16,19,21

134:17 135:10

137:2 139:16

141:20 145:5,20

146:22 148:3,11

151:3 154:17

165:12 167:2

176:11 178:16

190:22 192:22
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193:1,3,5 197:5

199:12 237:7

255:22 292:9

296:19,21

297:17 307:1

313:19 314:1

317:20,21

319:20

320:19,20

322:16

324:7,10,20

thirty-one 297:21

thought-out 209:2

thoughts 130:8

228:10 231:18

thousands 163:6

three-day 266:15

threw 166:10

throughout

233:11

throw 55:13 81:14

88:21 104:16

138:5 150:13

163:13 166:11

221:18 292:5

throwing 152:18

thrown 223:4

Thursday

237:11,14

242:15

thus 14:2 157:22

ticket 155:10

249:18

tie 101:19 221:16

tied 94:19

tight 135:1

tighter 131:16

tightest 44:6

tightly 153:8

Tim 73:22 74:20

90:13 155:13

timeline 163:9,11

timelines 145:15

time's 271:2

Timothy 2:9

tiny 154:13,15

tired 255:10

TL 122:16

today 55:18 57:7

84:21 87:17

115:7 126:17,18

137:13

158:20,21

162:16 218:13

221:21 231:10

247:10 283:11

285:4 291:2,8

312:1 322:14

tolerance 31:18

68:13 131:16

134:12

tolerances 145:15

146:8

Tom 2:22

tomorrow 99:14

128:14 219:11

238:16 240:18

327:15 328:9

tomorrow's

232:20

ton 221:20

tonight 238:21

272:17

tons 7:1

tool 32:8

tools 150:18 151:4

152:4

to-order 23:5

149:11 150:6

154:15 156:16

157:3,7 275:1

top 49:7 80:5

161:20 319:12

topic 12:14 13:13

to-stock 163:3

total 14:13

totally 151:13

316:17

touch 201:1

touching 51:13

towards 49:8

traceable 185:13

track 151:21 187:6

285:5

trail 301:12,17

train 111:20

177:16

training 131:21

Trane 2:19 20:8

86:1 151:12

transcript 272:18

329:6

transducers

144:14

transfer 3:16

14:18

transferred 30:19

transition 127:7

translate 206:12

216:3 247:5

248:17

translated 58:5

206:17

translation 216:5

transporting

95:20

Traulsen 2:13

18:4 34:13

treat 157:2

treating 127:2

tremendous 87:22

138:10

tried 30:16 44:6

trillion-dollar

207:13

trip 241:11 260:14

Tristsis 135:22

Tritsis 3:18 45:16

46:10,15,18

47:22 83:2 99:18

120:3 123:19,20

124:4,7

246:16,21

trouble 301:22

true 2:18 30:21

125:18 156:20

261:3 277:15

329:6

truly 96:1

trust 88:11 141:7

trusted 118:8

trusts 88:12

try 7:14 10:19 63:8

77:20 113:14

143:18 150:2

239:22 243:15

260:14 325:19

trying 11:2,12

21:9 26:8 38:4

40:22 44:7 62:20

63:3,4
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70:5,12,13 74:10

76:19 85:1 91:12

94:20 96:9

103:11 113:8

120:22 133:6

159:22 165:18

182:15 193:4

199:21 209:3

216:15 217:1

218:15 229:1

249:5 255:3

259:7 272:4

286:21 310:11

Tuesday

237:10,11

turn 54:20

turns 287:1

Twenty-eighth

256:14

Twenty-four

303:3

Twenty-sixth

256:15 258:19

twice 67:7 198:12

twist 116:20

two-part 209:20

twosy 163:8

tying 90:17

type 15:3 26:15

49:3 68:21 75:12

79:14 111:5

132:15 136:14

144:10 146:5

151:3 193:16

260:2 323:1

types 7:4 40:8

82:13 118:12

143:21 146:18

150:15 160:15

323:3

typewriting 329:5

typical 6:12

typically 41:20

66:4 79:7 100:17

102:19 132:6

171:18 195:19

253:8 254:2

typing 40:6,7

U

U.S 2:8,10,12 3:4

83:10 295:8

306:11,12 309:3

310:22

UL 21:12,14 29:21

33:21 35:1 50:4

63:20 118:6

127:6 147:18

185:8 192:14

193:13 194:5

195:17 196:9

UL-certified

196:12

umbrella 148:13

umbrellaing

148:10

Um-hmm 173:1

unable 13:4

unanimous 250:4

312:4

unannounced

195:18

uncapped 14:2

uncomfortable

59:6 148:18

292:21

uncommon 321:10

uncrate 321:14

undefined 327:21

underneath 184:4

understand

10:9,12 28:7

52:8 63:21 71:16

75:13 80:7 91:12

96:13 98:4

101:14 113:7

115:15 125:7

133:6 139:7

163:1 172:3

186:6 194:22

199:21 214:18

216:16 246:15

247:10,17,20

260:22 264:8

293:1 298:7,17

323:21,22

324:1,2

understanding

4:17 15:19 54:11

100:15 111:17

125:14

126:12,21 127:2

146:21 172:15

200:15 223:13

264:18 275:20

277:22

understands 91:7

understood 64:11

104:19,21

222:22

Underwriters 3:3

unfortunate 13:21

unfortunately

48:6 225:20

unhelpful 59:12

uniform 195:10

unique 132:13

150:2 151:19

157:4

unit 23:12 30:13

69:4 79:11,22

86:7 91:19 96:5

140:6 151:18

154:7,10,11

155:4,6 164:5,7

280:2 284:6

285:4 287:6

289:14 292:14

293:7 316:4

319:16 320:9

unitary 79:8

United 81:19 82:3

307:11

units 66:10,22

67:7 90:8 133:8

140:7 154:19

164:8 171:3

194:5 197:20,21

199:7,14 200:16

202:15 204:1

209:22 210:4

221:22 222:1,3

273:10,20

277:10 281:5

287:13 289:21

293:20 320:14

321:22 322:7

324:9,16 325:10

unless 4:11 14:16

23:8 30:10 37:12

54:11 76:14

108:17 111:20

150:3 163:14

245:19 254:16

264:4 276:16

292:3 303:7

305:15 307:21

unnecessary 274:9

unrelated 153:4

unruly 261:12
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unsupervised

144:22

update 268:15

upon 54:6 292:22

URC 240:6

user 194:6

usual 195:5

usually 8:9 41:22

42:2 154:10

291:19

utilities 13:8

utility 12:20

utilize 118:13

uttered 164:4

V

vacation 232:4

vacations 243:3

vaguely 108:18

valid 69:5 106:17

190:5

validate 56:14

110:1

valuable 90:14

value 23:8,9 75:22

99:22 128:3

vanilla 202:17

203:6

variables 129:12

variations 50:2

variety 24:11

222:2 252:16

various 215:12

275:2

VCRs 35:14

ventured 184:21

venue 220:12

verification

12:2,6,14 13:15

14:9,12,22 15:16

16:17 17:8 19:8

23:22 24:17,19

25:1,19,22

26:6,10

33:4,5,6,7 34:19

37:3 41:6 42:21

52:15,17 63:12

64:2 66:9 72:13

73:4,10,12

74:5,12,16,18

82:3,10 88:9,18

90:10 96:17,19

98:9,15 103:17

110:8 114:3,5,13

116:13,18

119:12

123:11,22 124:8

129:21

130:12,17 131:9

132:6,16 160:1

164:1,2,5,6,9

178:9,10,22

187:9 188:20

189:5 192:22

197:5 211:9

215:20

223:19,20 226:5

227:8 228:9

229:5,20 230:1

233:22 274:2,3,5

276:3,5 280:16

281:16,18,19

282:10

283:6,7,21,22

284:2,20 299:12

300:16 313:22

314:12 315:7

321:19 324:8

325:15

326:11,20

verified 36:19 64:4

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