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Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

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 U.S. DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY

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 CENTRAL AIR CONDITIONER REGIONAL STANDARDS

 ENFORCEMENT WORKING GROUP

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 PUBLIC MEETING

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 Thursday

 October 2, 2014

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 The Public Meeting met in Suite

8E-089, 1000 Independence Avenue, S.W.,

Washington, D.C., at 9:00 a.m, Neil Eisner, 

Meeting Facilitator, presiding.
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PRESENT

NEIL EISNER, Meeting Facilitator

TIMOTHY BALLO, Earthjustice

JORDAN DORIA, Ingersoll Rand

RAY ELLIS, Lincoln Electric Cooperative 

GARY FERNSTROM, California Investor Owned 

 Utilities 

JOHN GIBBONS, Carrier Corporation 

JOHN HURST, Lennox International

MATTHEW LATTANZI, NORDYNE Inc. 

CHARLES McCRUDDEN, Air Conditioning 

 Contractors of America 

JON MELCHI, HARDI 

KAREN MEYERS, Rheem Manufacturing Company

ELIZABETH NOLL, Natural Resources Defense 

 Council

DOUG RAWALD, U.S. Department of Energy, 

 General Counsel

BRYAN ROCKY, Johnson Controls

ANIRUDDH ROY, Goodman Manufacturing Company 

HARVEY SACHS, American Council for an

 Energy-Efficient Economy

AMY SHEPHERD, Air-Conditioning, Heating and 

 Refrigeration Institute

CHARLES WHITE, Plumbing-Heating-Cooling 

 Contractors - National Association 

DAVID WINNINGHAM, Allied Air Enterprises

ALSO PRESENT 

KARIM AMRANE, Air-Conditioning, Heating, and 

Refrigeration Institute

GARY CLARK, Goodman Global* 

LAURA DEGITZ, Navigant Consulting

JOHANNA HARIHARAN, U.S. Department of

 Energy,

General Counsel

DAVID HUNGERFORD, California Energy 

 Commission* 

DAVID RANSOM, McDermott Will & Emergy LLP*

*via teleconference 
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1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S

2 9:06 a.m.

3 MR. EISNER: All right, we are

4 going to get started.

5 A reminder, especially in the

6 morning, don't forget to turn your microphones

7 on when you are talking. You all remember

8 your names and your organization, but you

9 forget your microphones.

10 MR. FENSTROM: So, Neil, this is

11 Gary.

12 Do you think we ought to turn our

13 brains on, too.

14 MR. EISNER: Turn brains on. We

15 can take multiple breaks.

16 Nobody wants to caucus?

17 All right. We are through 21. Is

18 the preference to go back over the ones that

19 we --

20 MR. ROY: Neil, I would like to

21 interject.

22 Aniruddh Roy, Goodman.
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1 We would like to, at least I would

2 like to propose that the manufacturers caucus

3 on slide 18.

4 MR. EISNER: Okay.

5 MR. ROY: And bring forward a

6 recommendation on that.

7 MR. EISNER: Okay. Before we take

8 that time to caucus, let me ask whether when

9 we do start talking, do we want to go back

10 over the slides that we didn't finish or do we

11 want to go through the rest of the slides and

12 then start over again, go through the ones we

13 didn't? Go through the rest? Okay.

14 All right. How long do you want

15 to caucus?

16 MR. ROY: It depends, and that's

17 Chuck's answer.

18 (Laughter.)

19 MR. RAWALD: So, this is Doug.

20 Could we possibly go through the

21 rest of the slides and, then, caucus on slide

22 18, or do you feel it is really important to
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1 resolve that before we go through the rest of

2 the slides?

3 MR. ROY: It's important for

4 Goodman.

5 MR. RAWALD: Okay.

6 MR. EISNER: Okay. Take your 15

7 minutes or more, and let us know if you think

8 you're going to need a lot more, so people

9 know what they can do.

10 (Whereupon, the foregoing matter

11 went off the record at 9:08 a.m. and went back

12 on the record at 9:46 a.m.)

13 MS. SHEPHERD: Okay. So, we

14 obviously discussed this, and I think that the

15 issue that we have is that, as we discussed

16 yesterday, I think there is more clarity that

17 manufacturers need before they can sign off on

18 this particular slide. And what the

19 reasonable belief is and the scope of the

20 records will be based on the information that

21 DOE has.

22 So, I think that that is something
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1 that we want to go back to the slide and

2 revisit and get more information from Doug to

3 exactly kind of how this is going to work, and

4 sort of like the when and where and how much;

5 at least to some degree some general idea or

6 boundary as to when these records are going to

7 be requested and what is going to be

8 requested, and how that will play into the

9 investigation.

10 Because, right now, this is very

11 vague as to what reasonable belief is going to

12 be and what is going to be expected of the

13 manufacturers in terms of the records. And

14 so, I think it is hard for them to make a

15 decision based on the information that we have

16 right now.

17 MR. RAWALD: Okay, let me push

18 because I have been pretty deferential. So,

19 right now, the Department has unfettered

20 discretion to subpoena for records that we

21 think are important.

22 I have pushed the Department to
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1 adopt a standard that at least requires us to

2 have some sort of threshold. Most of that

3 deference is to the folks who are least able

4 to respond to records requests, and that I

5 think would be the contractors who are, by and

6 large, less sophisticated.

7 So, I am having a difficult time

8 understanding why the manufacturers are coming

9 back at this more vigorously than anyone else

10 when we have an established pattern of

11 practice with the manufacturers.

12 I think you see how the Department

13 is fairly judicious and I think careful before

14 asking for records in most cases. We are not

15 wasting a lot of people's time. So, I am a

16 little bit concerned that we will come to deal

17 with something that is actually more onerous

18 to us that you want even more.

19 And it is also difficult to accept

20 because I have heard you say yesterday, let

21 Doug do his job in a different context to

22 Gary's request. And so, here I am saying,
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1 "Let me do my job." I am telling you I need

2 to have something. I am going to look for

3 something.

4 And the best way for me to

5 characterize it is reasonable belief, which is

6 an established item, before I have you spend

7 money to ship me product now, which obviously

8 is much more expensive in giving me a $5,000

9 product plus shipping costs than having you

10 look at records.

11 So, I think that we understand

12 what that term is, at least hopefully, from us

13 having done it with you folks for three years

14 now. So, I can't give you more specificity,

15 I don't think, unless you could propose it. 

16 I can't give you a checklist. I can't give

17 you "You must have these five things."

18 What I can tell you is here are a

19 lot of things that I am looking at, and if I

20 have these things and I have a good number of

21 them, and I feel very confident that something

22 has happened, I am going to ask for records. 
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1 I am not going to waste people's time. But if

2 you want to propose to me some more language

3 that helps you feel better, I will listen to

4 it, but I have to let you know where I am

5 sitting here and what I have been fighting

6 with the Department to get here. And to hear

7 this is really difficult for me to take. So,

8 I want to make sure you guys understand where

9 I am coming from here.

10 MR. HURST: This is John Hurst

11 with Lennox.

12 I think it would be helpful if we

13 actually walked through a hypothetical

14 scenario of how you envision an investigation

15 taking place, what the Department would

16 request.

17 You know, we had a very simple

18 conversation like, "Okay, you get the phone

19 call." Who gets the phone call? What form do

20 the records have to be provided in?

21 It would be interesting, I think,

22 just to kind of talk through what an actual
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1 hypothetical violation looks like and what

2 your standard would be for providing

3 information. That might clear up some of the

4 concerns.

5 MR. RAWALD: No, it's fair. And I

6 had hoped that I had walked people through

7 this last week, but I definitely don't mind

8 going through it again, and understanding that

9 we haven't done these cases. So, we are

10 hoping that can anticipate all things, but we

11 can't because we just haven't been in this

12 situation.

13 So, what I envision is -- and this

14 is based upon a complaint. So, we get a

15 complaint. And the Department is going to

16 follow up, hopefully, with the person

17 complaining, if they've identified to us. So,

18 we could, then, verify that.

19 And in most cases, the Department

20 is going to follow up with the person whose

21 home, if there is a home identified, to figure

22 out, okay, what's really there, because we
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1 want to actually see if there is a "there"

2 there.

3 Now if we have a situation where

4 there is no home identified but just a pattern

5 of conduct, that is a little more complicated,

6 right? So, I want to look at that.

7 So, if I have a home, then I would

8 like to have the home address. I would like

9 to have the homeowner verify that the model

10 number XYZ is there. I would like to have a

11 picture of the unit in place, because I am

12 operating here from D.C. I can't see it

13 there. So, that would be kind of the helpful

14 thing to me.

15 And that would all meet Amy's

16 threshold requirement from yesterday. I think

17 that everyone will agree that's good enough.

18 But the more nebulous question is,

19 okay, we have an indication that this company

20 is doing something bad, but we don't have a

21 whole lot more. We don't have an actual place

22 identified. What could I do?
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1 And so, I don't think we, as a

2 Department, have embraced a complete composite

3 investigation process for what we are going to

4 do, if I have 10 complaints from Miami,

5 Florida about one particular contractor

6 installing 13 SEER product, in trying to

7 figure out how that is going to take place.

8 So, what I would like to do is, if

9 I identify who the contractor is and I have a

10 number of complaints, and then, I am able to

11 cross-reference that through possibly going to

12 the distributor and saying, "Are you selling

13 13 SEER product to that person?" just in that

14 area. Then, I have something to go on.

15 So, that is a situation where

16 possibly a number of complaints might trigger

17 a record request. I don't want to do that,

18 though. I want to have more. So, I have to

19 really look at what else more could I get.

20 And so, if I could have physical

21 documentation from homeowners, it is helpful. 

22 But, if I don't have any identified actual
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1 installations, then I am going to want to try

2 to circle around this some way.

3 And I think going to the

4 distributors makes sense because they are more

5 likely to know who they sold to. So, I may

6 canvass or ask the distributors in that area,

7 "Do you sell to this person?" That would be

8 the record request. I mean, it would be very

9 basic. "Do you sell product to this person?"

10 "Okay, if you do, then have you sold them

11 products below 14 SEER?"

12 And it would be a very simple

13 record request. It wouldn't be, "Give me all

14 your records of all your sales for the last

15 five years." I want it to be very targeted,

16 and I want it to be very specific.

17 And then, if I find out that they

18 have done that and they have been selling to

19 this guy, then I am going to approach the

20 contractor. I am say, "Okay, Contractor, now

21 I've talked to the distributor. He's told me

22 he has sold you 13 SEER product. I have
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1 information saying you're installing 13 SEER

2 product in Miami. Tell me, give me your

3 records for the last three years and show me

4 where you've installed this product, this 13

5 SEER product I know you have."

6 And then, possibly, if he has

7 given me some information that doesn't make

8 sense to me, saying, "Well, that product the

9 distributor says isn't really 13 SEER," then

10 I'll go to the manufacturer and I will say,

11 "Okay, Manufacturer, I'm hearing from the

12 distributor it's 13 SEER product. The

13 installer is, `No way, this is not 13 SEER

14 product.' Where do you guys come out on

15 this?"

16 So, I think the manufacturer is

17 really the last step in the road in that

18 particular case. So, they are the ones we are

19 going to bother the least.

20 There are very few occasions where

21 the investigation is going to start with the

22 manufacturer because there might be an
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1 instance -- and I want to footnote that -- but

2 I can't see that right now, as I am thinking

3 here. I think the manufacturers are the least

4 ones who are going to be burdened by the

5 record request. It is really going to be

6 targeting to the contract and, then, possibly

7 the distributor, depending on what end I need

8 to go to.

9 MS. MEYERS: This is Karen with

10 Rheem.

11 That was very helpful, Doug. The

12 only part that I would disagree a little bit

13 or have a little trouble understanding is I

14 think nine times out of ten, when you get a

15 complaint, you are not going to know who that

16 contractor was that installed that unit. So,

17 then, what happens?

18 MR. RAWALD: Well, I don't have a

19 reasonable belief then. I need to have a

20 person. I need to have some sort of thing. 

21 So, if I get 10 complaints saying, "Well,

22 there's something going on in Miami," I am
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1 going to keep an eye on it, but I can't do

2 much with that. So, I am not going to just

3 request records because, well, somebody says

4 something is happening in Miami. That's not

5 enough. That's not enough from the

6 Department's point of view. Nobody is going

7 to think that is enough.

8 MS. MEYERS: But if a homeowner

9 says, "I have" -- you know, he buys this house

10 and there is an illegal unit installed. You

11 have proof that an illegal unit was installed,

12 but you have no idea who put it in.

13 MR. RAWALD: Right. So, that

14 might be an issue where I would go to the

15 manufacturer and say, "Manufacturer, I have

16 Model XYZ with Serial No. AB34578. Can you

17 tell me what distributor you sold that to?" 

18 And that would be a very targeted, very

19 specific request.

20 And then, I would go to the

21 distributor.

22 MS. MEYERS: And I think we need
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1 to understand that --

2 MR. RAWALD: Yes.

3 MS. MEYERS: -- because I think

4 predominantly that is what is going to happen.

5 MR. RAWALD: Okay.

6 MS. MEYERS: And I think that is

7 part of the manufacturers' concern --

8 MR. RAWALD: Uh-hum.

9 MS. MEYERS: -- is that nine times

10 out of ten those are going to be the

11 investigations that you are having. That is

12 the process you are going to have to follow.

13 MR. RAWALD: Right.

14 MS. MEYERS: You're going to have

15 to go top-down.

16 MR. RAWALD: But, in order for

17 that to be effective, I have to have a serial

18 number, right? I can't go to a manufacturer

19 with a model number and say, "Tell me where in

20 the world you sent this?" because that is not

21 going to be a reasonable request.

22 I'm going to have to come to you
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1 and say, "I have Model No. XYZ with a serial

2 number here. Tell me who you sold it to."

3 And then, I will have to go to the

4 distributor and say, "Tell me who you sold it

5 to."

6 That's the only way, but it is

7 going to be very targeted. I am not going to

8 go to the manufacturer and say, "Mrs. Smith

9 says she has Model ABC. She won't let me in

10 her back yard. She won't give me a serial

11 number. It's in Florida. Can you help me

12 out?" That's not enough. I can't do anything

13 with that.

14 And I'll have to go out to Mrs.

15 Smith and say, "Mrs. Smith, you need to tell

16 me something for me to work with. I need to

17 have a serial number here to go back, because,

18 otherwise, I can't track that on the train."

19 So, I don't see me saying to

20 Rheem, "Rheem, tell me where all 10,000" --

21 well, maybe that is too big of a number --

22 "where all 1,000 of this model went in the
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1 past three years."

2 That is not going to do anybody

3 any good. I am going to be swamped with

4 paper, and it is going to get me nowhere. 

5 You're going to be swamped with requests that

6 are not going to get anything. And I don't

7 think I have a reasonable belief that that is

8 going to be helping me get there. So, I am

9 not going to bother you with that.

10 MR. EISNER: Doug, is there a part

11 of your process where the manufacturer or the

12 other party from whom you are requesting

13 records can come to you and say, "This is a

14 big burden for us. Can we cut it back in some

15 way?"

16 MR. RAWALD: Yes.

17 MR. EISNER: Or, alternatively,

18 can you tell us more about what you're looking

19 for, why you have a reasonable belief? Maybe

20 there's an easier way for us to help you."?

21 MR. RAWALD: Right.

22 MR. EISNER: Maybe work some
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1 different record request out?

2 MR. RAWALD: Sure. And so, I

3 guess we could write into here, if the request

4 appears to be overly burdensome to the

5 receiving party, they can respond and ask for

6 more information. But I still want to have

7 that clock running. "Hey, you should still be

8 working on it."

9 But we want to work with people. 

10 I mean, I can't see into your database. So,

11 if you're saying to me, "Hey, Doug, what

12 you're asking for is a lot more complicated

13 than what you think it is," then tell me that. 

14 That I can live with. That makes sense.

15 MR. HURST: Okay. I think the

16 point is -- and you covered it very well -- if

17 the request is specific to an investigation

18 versus provide the other alternative that you

19 said, 10,000 records or whatever, I think that

20 is really what we wanted clarification on. On

21 slide 16 where it says "Request records," the

22 records are pertaining to a specific
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1 installation or investigation pertaining to a

2 specific installation --

3 MR. RAWALD: Right.

4 MR. HURST: -- or a set of

5 installations.

6 MR. RAWALD: Right. We're not

7 fishing. I mean, I think is non-productive

8 because I am more like to catch a lot of water

9 than fish.

10 MR. HURST: That is the clarity we

11 needed.

12 MR. RAWALD: Yes.

13 MS. MEYERS: Maybe if we could

14 just detail it out a little bit or on the

15 slide? And we can come back to this. It is

16 my suggestion -- I don't know whether the rest

17 of the OEMs -- that we walk through the other

18 slides, and then, see if --

19 MR. HURST: I think if you just

20 say, DOE must have reasonable belief to

21 request records specific to an ongoing

22 investigation or an investigation, or specific
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1 to a violation, I think that is very

2 reasonable.

3 MR. RAWALD: Okay. I don't mind

4 adding that language to that.

5 MS. SHEPHERD: This is Amy

6 Shepherd.

7 And, Doug, to your earlier point,

8 I think there is a difference between the

9 existing regime and this regime. The existing

10 regime is talking about manufacturer conduct

11 and manufacturer responsibility for their own

12 conduct.

13 This is different because these

14 could be requests about things that the

15 manufacturers are doing that are their

16 everyday business, but the conduct that is bad

17 is by somebody else. And it is an

18 investigative process. So, DOE is going to be

19 seeking records from them for their customers

20 about this.

21 And so, the scenario is very

22 likely that the manufacturer gets a request
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1 from DOE, submits those records. DOE then

2 goes to the distributor and requests records

3 from them, finds out it's not a routine

4 violation. But the relationship has been

5 poisoned between the manufacturer and the

6 distributor.

7 And so, we are not being

8 difficult. To us, I think this is

9 fundamentally a little different. And so,

10 there's more sensitivity to it. So, there is

11 a greater level of -- I don't know if

12 "discomfort" is the word -- from a vague, for

13 what we perceive is sort of vague requirements

14 for this request for records that is going to

15 have real impact. Just the request itself has

16 an impact beyond the manufacturer on its

17 business. And so, that is where this is all

18 coming from.

19 MR. RAWALD: Right. So, I guess

20 what I am hearing you -- and so, pardon me for

21 my misperception earlier -- it is not the

22 burden of the request; it is the effect of the
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1 request on the relationship with the people

2 downstream that you are worried about.

3 MS. SHEPHERD: Well, it is more

4 than just the request, yes, absolutely.

5 MR. RAWALD: Okay.

6 MR. FENSTROM: So, this is Gary.

7 I understand how the manufacturers

8 feel about this. And I doubt that, to use

9 Doug's term, which I think is a really good

10 choice, "fishing" at the manufacturer level

11 would be very productive, anyway.

12 However, I think fishing at the

13 distributor level might be because at the

14 distributor level, through some sort of

15 minimal audit, you might find indication of

16 inappropriate equipment sold to contractors in

17 areas where it shouldn't be installed.

18 So, I don't want to see us move in

19 a direction where investigation is limited to

20 the same extent all the way up and down the

21 channel because investigations would be more

22 productive and useful at the contractor and
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1 distributor level than perhaps the

2 manufacturer level, where they don't have any

3 relevant information that we would want to

4 have anyway.

5 MR. EISNER: Are you suggesting

6 that you are troubled by this additional

7 language or you think it is just a matter of

8 the way it is implemented?

9 MR. FENSTROM: I don't have any

10 trouble agreeing with the manufacturers'

11 concern about frivolous or non-productive

12 requests for records at their level. But, if

13 this same restriction were to apply at the

14 contractor and distributor level, I would have

15 a problem with it because it limits our

16 investigative ability.

17 MR. EISNER: Do you have any

18 language to suggest at those levels that would

19 make the request reasonable, even if it were

20 not limited to a specific --

21 MR. FENSTROM: The only resolution

22 I can think of at this moment is
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1 differentiating the criteria between the

2 different parties and the sales channel,

3 differentiating at the manufacturer,

4 distributor, and contractor level.

5 MR. RAWALD: So, Gary, if I

6 hear -- this is Doug -- you would like to see

7 reasonable belief basically look at different

8 factors depending on who is involved. Is that

9 what you are saying?

10 MR. FENSTROM: Exactly.

11 MR. RAWALD: Yes, and I think that

12 we would do that. So, there are factors that

13 are unique to every enterprise, right? I

14 mean, if I have complaints about a contractor,

15 I won't have those about a distributor. So,

16 those are unique things to the contractor.

17 If I have a distributor with

18 seemingly a pallet full of inappropriately19 rated product on their warehouse floor, that

20 is going to be unique to them. I think that

21 we are going to look at all the facts and

22 circumstances, which are going to be who is
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1 the person we are looking at as well as what

2 the factors that we are aware of and what can

3 we investigate further. So, I think it will

4 vary, depending on where the party is in the

5 chain.

6 MR. FENSTROM: You see, this all

7 gets back to the proactive versus reactive. 

8 And we are wanting to include the language

9 that we don't want DOE investigating without

10 cause. Well, okay, I can see how you might

11 not investigate at the manufacturer level

12 without cause because, if you were do that,

13 you wouldn't find anything anyway.

14 However, if we say you're not

15 going to investigate at the contractor level

16 without cause, that really limits us to

17 responding to complaints and does not allow

18 for proactive investigation.

19 MR. RAWALD: So, this is Doug.

20 I want a different -- that is part

21 of why we changed this from a threshold for

22 investigation to a threshold for a record
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1 request. So, I don't want to randomly audit

2 contractor records. I think that is going to

3 be burdensome and not fruitful. I want to

4 have targeted auditing based upon detection of

5 anomalies. And I want to be both proactively

6 and reactively looking for anomalies.

7 And so, I am not going to be using

8 record requests to identify those anomalies

9 initially, however. I think that is going to

10 be too burdensome for both ends, for both them

11 and for me, because I will be spending a lot

12 of time looking at records, looking for a

13 needle in a haystack that may not exist.

14 And so, I want to be able to

15 proactively identify things by investigating

16 them and, then, only ask for records from

17 people when I think there is something there.

18 MR. FENSTROM: Okay. Thank you. 

19 That explains the difference to me. It has to

20 do with what is required to initiate an

21 investigation versus what is required to

22 request records. Thank you.
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1 MR. EISNER: Harvey?

2 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey.

3 Amy, your observations or comments

4 helped me a great deal, and I want to think

5 outloud with you and with John about this

6 question of poisoning the relationship.

7 From the outside, it looks as

8 though the relationship between manufacturer

9 and distributor is very, very different from

10 the relationship between distributor and

11 contractor, but I may be misunderstanding it. 

12 The distributor and the manufacturer from the

13 outside look to be tied contractually, and we

14 could say codependently, as serving each other

15 on a more or less exclusive basis, recognizing

16 the distributor may carry overlapping lines. 

17 Where the contractor in the best case 

18 predominantly represents one brand and sells

19 one brand, but almost always will also handle

20 other brands. And consequently, as more

21 options to move his loyalty, a less-strong

22 usually-contract-free tie.
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1 So that, if that is correct -- and

2 I don't know that it is -- it would suggest

3 that it takes a lot more to poison a

4 relationship between a manufacturer and a

5 distributor than between a distributor and a

6 contractor.

7 MR. HURST: Harvey, I would say

8 that -- this is John Hurst from Lennox -- I

9 think it runs the gamut. We have dealers or

10 contractors that we have had since the early

11 1900s, and they are part of the family. And

12 you would have a hard time switching them.

13 Some distributors we have great

14 relationships with and they have been with us

15 a long time. Some switch. I think the big

16 difference is, regardless of the level of the

17 relationship, the switching costs are

18 certainly much higher for a distributor than

19 they would be for a contractor.

20 But it would be hard for me to

21 lump all distributors and all -- I couldn't

22 stereotype them, if you will. I think it runs
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1 the gamut. Some you have today; they're gone

2 tomorrow. Some have been with you for 100

3 years. And I think the same thing goes for

4 distribution as well.

5 MR. SACHS: John, this is Harvey.

6 That is helpful. You're telling

7 me it is not a line, but there is a frequency

8 distribution. I guess my question, then,

9 would be: am I roughly right about the

10 centroids or the medians?

11 (Laughter.)

12 MR. HURST: I can't speak to the

13 centroids, but -- (laughter) -- I would say

14 distributors are, from a process standpoint,

15 more sticky because it is harder to switch.

16 That said, there is an emotional

17 bond that goes long and deep with some of our

18 contractors or dealers that has gone for

19 decades. So, again, it is kind of hard to

20 lump either one into a stereotypical category.

21 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey.

22 Thanks, John. It is still very
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1 helpful, and I think your term "stickiness,"

2 relative stickiness, captures it pretty well

3 for me.

4 MR. HURST: Yes, the only thing I

5 would say is we talk about dealers,

6 contractors, distributors. We're each other's

7 customer. Whether you like somebody or not or

8 have a deep and abiding relationship with that

9 particular distributor or contractor, they are

10 our customers.

11 Anytime you are put into an

12 enforcement or a situation where you may have

13 to provide information that may be

14 uncomfortable for your customer to deal with,

15 it is just a very awkward situation for all of

16 us to be in, regardless of where you are in

17 the chain.

18 MR. SACHS: And I certainly didn't

19 mean to deprecate the term "poisoning it". It

20 captured a lot for me.

21 MS. SHEPHERD: Actually, I was

22 thinking of that scene in "The Godfather". Is
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1 it three where he goes up to him and says, "I

2 know it was you."?

3 (Laughter.)

4 Is that two? Okay.

5 MR. EISNER: I mean, from the

6 perspective of the distributors and the

7 contractors in this area, when you talk about

8 doing the training, is this the kind of issue

9 you intend to focus some time on when you do

10 training for each other? Maybe it works out

11 in a way where it is more of an incentive to

12 ensure that you comply with this stuff because

13 we, the manufacturers, may have to give up

14 records showing what is going on? Or is this

15 something you hope to avoid having to talk

16 about during training?

17 MR. HURST: No, I think it would

18 be -- John Hurst from Lennox -- I think it is

19 helpful if all parties going in understand

20 what this means. So, there is a large

21 education piece, and I personally probably

22 will not be doing the training, but I could
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1 see me talking to our salespeople, District

2 Managers, Territory Managers, to say, "Look,

3 it behooves all of us to understand exactly

4 what this means, and don't put me in a

5 position where I have to provide documentation

6 on us because you shouldn't put yourself in a

7 position where you're selling to a

8 contractor." And I think that education goes

9 up and down the chain.

10 MR. EISNER: This is something,

11 from my perspective, I think you might want to

12 talk about. It doesn't have to be part of the

13 negotiated agreement, but you might want to

14 think about language that you would want DOE

15 to put in the preamble that could help you in

16 that respect. In other words, some kind of a

17 message about the importance of working

18 together, et cetera, to make this an effective

19 program, whatever it might be. But you might

20 think about whether there is language you want

21 to suggest that you would all agree to.

22 Steve? (sic)
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1 MR. MELCHI: Jon Melchi with

2 HARDI.

3 I think it is safe to say that we

4 will, as an association, make sure that we are

5 communicating to our members that the

6 manufacturers have a responsibility, so as not

7 to make it seem like it is coming directly

8 from you; that it is just part of this overall

9 scheme. So, we will make that commitment.

10 MR. EISNER: Thank you.

11 I've got to get your right name

12 tag up there. I look at you and I keep seeing

13 Steve, Steve, Steve.

14 Do we want to vote on this now? I

15 mean, yesterday there were some things you,

16 Doug, for example, wanted to think about.

17 MR. RAWALD: That was the issue.

18 MR. EISNER: That was the issue? 

19 So, is everybody ready to vote on this? All

20 right. Does anybody have any objection to

21 unanimously approving this as it has been

22 amended?
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1 MS. SHEPHERD: I guess I would

2 just ask, manufacturers, do we want to talk

3 about this later, and just make sure we are

4 all comfortable with it in a conversation? Or

5 are you all okay? Okay.

6 MR. EISNER: Okay? All right. 

7 And nobody objects? This is adopted

8 unanimously.

9 All right, we agreed to start with

10 slide 22, DOE investigation and what it may

11 include.

12 Doug, anything you wanted to set

13 it up with?

14 MR. RAWALD: Right. So, this is

15 just a basic fact that I think I went over

16 last week, which is we are going to try to do

17 these things. There are other things we may

18 do as well, trying to look for other evidence,

19 talking to other people in the area, that kind

20 of thing.

21 But these are the main components

22 for people to be aware of. What I want people
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1 to understand is, if we don't find a

2 violation, we are going to close the case. 

3 And when we close a case, we send a letter to

4 the person and we say, "The case is closed,"

5 assuming they had been contacted in the first

6 place.

7 I guess the question to me is, if

8 I never have contacted the contractor, and

9 they are not even aware that we investigated

10 them, do you want to still be put on notice

11 the case is closed or would you prefer -- or

12 a distributor, if we were investigating a

13 distributor -- or would you prefer just having

14 it be closed in our books and you never hear

15 of it anyway? What is the better approach

16 there?

17 So, case closed letters, we don't

18 as a matter of course ever publish the case

19 closed letters. We just give them to the

20 individual to let them know the case is over

21 when we are investigating the manufacturer at

22 the manufacturer level.
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1 So, I guess I don't have any

2 druthers one way or the other. If we haven't

3 ever contacted the person because we found

4 that it was completely spurious, then I don't

5 see a reason really to send you a letter. But

6 if we contacted you, I would want to send you

7 a letter, so you would know I don't have to

8 sweat this anymore; it is over. So, that is

9 how I would approach it.

10 MR. WHITE: This is Chuck White.

11 I would not want to receive a

12 letter in the mail that said, "You're in the

13 clear" for something I had no idea about.

14 (Laughter.)

15 MR. RAWALD: Right. Okay.

16 MR. WHITE: That might not sit too

17 well that morning.

18 MR. RAWALD: Yes.

19 MR. WHITE: So, I mean, if we know

20 we are involved with something, I would

21 certainly want to know we are cleared. But,

22 if you haven't talked to us, I don't see any
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1 reason to send me a letter.

2 MR. EISNER: Is there an in

3 between, Doug, where you have a problem with

4 a contractor. You contact the distributor. 

5 But you have never publicly told the

6 contractor that there is an investigation? Do

7 you still need to put a letter in there

8 because the contractor might find out that

9 questions were asked? Do you have that kind

10 of in between?

11 MR. WHITE: I guess I am not sure

12 why you would be talking to a distributor

13 without talking to me as well.

14 This is Chuck White.

15 MR. RAWALD: Right. So, if I go

16 to the distributor, if I go and ask anyone for

17 records, I am going to talk to the contractor

18 because I think they need to be put on notice

19 about that.

20 So, I think the question I am

21 dealing with is, you know, I have looked

22 around and I went to Mrs. Smith's house. It
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1 really wasn't a non-compliant unit. She is

2 completely wrong. And so, I don't need to

3 tell Chuck, "Well, she called up and

4 complained about you," unless you want me to

5 do that.

6 MR. WHITE: Probably I already

7 know.

8 (Laughter.)

9 But I would say I would think it

10 would be unfair for you to be going to levels

11 higher than me without having talked to me. 

12 Now, if you can't find me, you had a unit that

13 has got a serial number but no known

14 contractor, then you come the other way down,

15 and I'm no longer in business or whatever that

16 might be. I think that is a different case.

17 But, if you know where I am and

18 you can talk to me, I think you need to not

19 be --

20 MR. EISNER: Chuck, what happens

21 when the customer calls you up and says, "This

22 is bad. This is horrible. I'm going to
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1 complain about you to the Department of

2 Energy."? Hangs up the phone on you. He

3 doesn't know she has called you. Is there a

4 problem there? Do you want to know if she

5 ever filed a complaint? Do you want to know

6 if it is still there?

7 MR. WHITE: Well, I would assume,

8 if Doug feels it is a credible complaint, that

9 he is going to contact me.

10 MR. EISNER: Okay, but he doesn't. 

11 But all you know is she said she was going to

12 complain to DOE. Maybe she even sends you a

13 copy of the letter, but you don't know that;

14 he doesn't know that you got a copy.

15 MR. WHITE: If she sends me a copy

16 of the letter and says she has contacted DOE,

17 I am going to be expecting to hear from them. 

18 And some contractors might take a proactive

19 approach and contact the agency, but where I

20 am sitting, in the middle of Indiana -- this

21 is a very large building with lots of people. 

22 I don't know, do I talk to Doug? I am going
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1 to feel like I am going up against the U.S.

2 Government. I am not exactly sure who is

3 going to know an answer to be able to talk to.

4 So, I might do that. I might try

5 to head it off and say, "Hey, I've got a

6 customer that is mad about something." You

7 know, it is right. But my expectation would

8 be, if he, indeed, knows and feels it is

9 credible, that I will be getting some kind of

10 inquiry.

11 "Hey, I heard from so-and-so. Did

12 you put this in? Did you? Did you not? Do

13 you have any records, whatever that might be?

14 MR. RAWALD: Uh-hum. I guess

15 Neil's scenario is I get a letter from Mrs.

16 Smith, but I've gotten 20 letters from Mrs.

17 Smith and I know that she just is a perennial

18 complainer with actually no basis to her

19 complaints, and she has no evidence to support

20 it. And actually, when I ask her the model

21 number, it proves to be one that I know to be

22 14 SEER. So, I am not worried about it.
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1 But she has sent you the letter

2 and told you she is going to go complain to

3 me. Would you want the Department to send you

4 a letter? So, that way, you know, oh, good,

5 the Department saw through Mrs. Smith; they're

6 not going with this anymore? It seems like

7 you probably would, just so you could get that

8 relief off you.

9 MR. WHITE: I guess I can see

10 personally I would rather not think you know

11 my name, but --

12 MR. RAWALD: Right.

13 MR. EISNER: You can always ask. 

14 If you have got a letter, you can always --

15 maybe you can provide an address or something.

16 MR. WHITE: I guess I am not

17 looking to make more burden for you, but not

18 knowing are you going to get 10 phone calls or

19 1,000 -- Mrs. Smith can be busy. It certainly

20 would not be a problem to get a letter that

21 says we had a complaint from Mrs. Smith and we

22 don't believe there is any action to be taken,
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1 whatever that might be.

2 It would kind of serve, if I have

3 been doing things nefariously or if I know

4 other people, that might be a good

5 communication tool, that I am going to go to

6 the next meeting and say, "I got a letter from

7 DOE and somebody complained, and, by God, they

8 are looking into this."

9 MR. RAWALD: Yes, that would be

10 helpful, actually.

11 MR. WHITE: So, it might serve a

12 PR relationship for you as well.

13 MR. RAWALD: Yes, and like have a

14 little stock warning, a reminder of what

15 regional standards are and what the

16 applicability is and what the requirement is.

17 MR. WHITE: It keeps it on

18 people's radar.

19 MR. RAWALD: Right.

20 MR. WHITE: It keeps them

21 informed.

22 MR. RAWALD: Okay. I'm convinced.
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1 MR. WHITE: There's certainly

2 nothing wrong with getting a letter that says

3 you're operating properly.

4 MR. EISNER: Any other comments on

5 slide 22?

6 MR. McCRUDDEN: This is Charlie

7 with the ACCA.

8 I have comments for slide 22, but

9 I want to raise them at slide 23.

10 (Laughter.)

11 And it will be more clear when we

12 get to 23.

13 MR. EISNER: Is there any

14 objection to slide 22? Or do you want us to

15 go to 23 and, then, come back to 22?

16 Okay, let's go to 23, unless

17 somebody else has something on 22.

18 Okay, slide 23 --

19 MR. RAWALD: Well, I anticipate

20 Charlie's question is, if I replace the unit

21 that non-compliant before DOE issues their

22 public finding of violation, can I, then, not
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1 have a public finding of violation. And the

2 answer would be yes.

3 MR. McCRUDDEN: So, my

4 recommendation would be, can we take the top

5 five bullets from 23 and insert them into

6 slide 22 between the first "if no violation is

7 found" and the second "if no violation is

8 found"?

9 And so, what I am describing here

10 is a situation where -- well, let me start

11 over. I think that when Doug does an

12 investigation, more than a complaint, but it

13 rises to a record request, whether it be at

14 the contractor or at the manufacturer coming

15 down, that when Doug gets to a contractor,

16 there's four outcomes.

17 The first one is that it is a

18 mistake. There is no violation found, and we

19 can issue the notice. They have had records

20 requested. They have double-checked, and

21 there is no violation. So, they can issue the

22 notice of no violation.
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1 The second option is the

2 contractor realizes, oh, my gosh, I made a

3 mistake. And the contractor knows that it is

4 a one-off. And he remediates before the

5 official investigation closes, to Doug's

6 satisfaction in a way that the investigation

7 closes where there is no violation. There is

8 no need to make a public notification, and

9 then, there is no relationship that is

10 tainted, not poisoned, between a manufacturer.

11 Because let's assume Doug goes to

12 the manufacturer and traces the serial number

13 down. Now that manufacturer knows, well,

14 there may have been a mistake there. This may

15 be a contractor we should be leery of.

16 The other option is that the

17 contractor elects not to remediate. And at

18 that point, within a certain time, at that

19 time, I don't think they should be protected. 

20 They should get the Notice of Violation. That

21 should be public because it has to be.

22 The other option is Doug finds a
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1 routine violator right away. And I don't

2 think we're going to find an in between. I

3 think what Doug is going to find is honest

4 mistake and routine violator. This is sort of

5 an on/off situation for the contractor. And

6 it is unfortunate that it is that way, but my

7 guess is that that is sort of the way it is

8 going to play out.

9 And I think that one mistake is

10 probably going to lead to more mistakes or one

11 mistake is going to find others. And that is

12 the contractor we don't want to protect. They

13 get the routine violation status. And then,

14 they have to go through everything in the

15 following slides.

16 So, what my proposal is to see if

17 there is a way that we could -- and it sounds

18 like Doug has that flexibility -- allow the

19 contractor to remedy before the official

20 notification comes out. And then,

21 essentially, it happened, but nobody knows it

22 happened.
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1 MR. RAWALD: Right. And this is

2 Doug.

3 This goes to Tim's point that he

4 raised before about trying to create

5 incentives for remediation. And this seems to

6 be a powerful one, right? So, if you know you

7 can avoid having been found to be violative at

8 all by fixing the issue before it ever gets to

9 that point, then the Department should at

10 least encourage that conduct by saying, "Okay,

11 well, then, there actually will be no Notice

12 of Violation."

13 But if we issue a Notice of

14 Violation and you say, "Man, now John Hurst

15 isn't taking my calls anymore. What do I

16 do?", then you know you can go back and fix

17 it. And then, John might pick up the phone

18 again.

19 So, I want to have both. I want

20 to have both the ability to remediate after a

21 Notice of Violation, so you could fix yourself

22 and get off the list, but also the incentive,
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1 if you remediate when you find out about it

2 from DOE and you think "Gosh, I really missed

3 that," you can fix that, and then, we won't

4 sanction you by creating this Notice of

5 Violation.

6 I think that is fair.

7 MR. McCRUDDEN: And just to go a

8 little further in it, just because we haven't

9 really gone through slide 23. You know, all

10 the things we have talked about before, which

11 is it has to be at the contractor's cost, they

12 have to provide the serial numbers, so that

13 there is no issue where the manufacturer is

14 sort of essentially paying for it through a

15 warranty claim, as we discussed. I mean, all

16 of these things still hold.

17 MR. RAWALD: Right. So, let's go

18 back to slide 22, if we could.

19 And before the last bullet, if you

20 can insert a bullet, and what I would suggest

21 we add is, "If violation found but corrected

22 before DOE makes a finding" -- "remediated" is
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1 fine. "Then, DOE will close the case with a

2 case closed letter."

3 Right. That's fine, uh-hum.

4 Right. So, if DOE says, well, it

5 is pretty clear this guy installed in Mrs.

6 Smith's house the wrong thing, but he has

7 already fixed it here, as soon as we even

8 brought it to his attention, then there is no

9 need for us to find him in violation because

10 it has been fixed. And that will be his

11 incentive to fix the matter before we ever get

12 there.

13 MR. EISNER: What does it need to

14 say, "If a violation found"? I'm sorry. "If

15 violation found before DOE makes a finding"

16 sounds like a contradiction.

17 MR. RAWALD: Okay. Okay. "If

18 there was a non-compliant installation" --

19 MR. EISNER: How about "If a

20 potential violation is found before DOE makes

21 a finding"? "Improper installation remediated

22 before DOE finds in violation."
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1 MR. RAWALD: Okay.

2 MR. BALLO: This is Tim.

3 Just as a practical matter, how

4 long is the gap between you discover a

5 violation and you issue a finding or make a

6 finding?

7 MR. RAWALD: Right. This is Doug.

8 And so, I don't think it will be

9 very long. So, I don't think they have a very

10 large period of time in which to do this.

11 What I envision something

12 happening is they get their record request. 

13 They say, "Oops, that's right. Let me go fix

14 it today." And if they don't before I get

15 there, then that's too late. So, that is how

16 I envision it.

17 I don't think that we are going to

18 take very long to do these. So, that is how

19 I see it taking place.

20 MR. BALLO: I mean, I guess, given

21 my preference for the homeowner having the

22 product fixed, I guess I would recommend that,
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1 if the contractor says, "I just need a couple

2 of days to get a guy out there to do that,"

3 that you would hold off on making the Notice

4 in Violation.

5 MR. RAWALD: Right. We could be

6 reasonable about that. It is one of those

7 things where we keep hearing that. And so,

8 "I'll be there in a couple of days, I swear,

9 Doug. I really will."

10 (Laughter.)

11 MR. McCRUDDEN: Contractors never

12 say that.

13 MR. RAWALD: Which has happened to

14 me outside the context of contractors. But it

15 is just an interesting point.

16 I do want to bring this language

17 back to the people I work for to make sure

18 they are entirely comfortable with it before

19 I vote on it, but I think that we would be

20 comfortable, I think that this would be fine,

21 but I want to make sure that everyone is okay

22 with it.
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1 MR. WHITE: Doug, this is Chuck

2 White.

3 Do you have a limit in mind as to

4 how many remediations you could do? You come

5 in, you find my records, and I've got 50 of

6 them. Are you going to let me go do all -- as

7 a hypothetical, if I went and remediated all

8 50, would that satisfy you? Or if it is 50 I

9 have done in the last three years, I don't

10 care if you fix them or not. Obviously, you

11 are doing routine violations.

12 MR. RAWALD: Let's limit this to

13 one time. Let's limit this to one time. 

14 Let's say this is a one-time violation. I

15 mean, let's make this reasonable, which is if

16 there is one violation and you fix it, this is

17 the "Get Out of Jail Free" card.

18 MR. WHITE: Okay.

19 MR. RAWALD: But, if you have more

20 than one, you don't get the "Get Out of Jail

21 Free" card. How about that?

22 MR. WHITE: Yes, I just want to
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1 clarify.

2 MR. RAWALD: Uh-hum.

3 MR. McCRUDDEN: And I think,

4 because on the next slide you talk about

5 routine violator, you look at number of

6 violations. And it says both found in current

7 investigations and in any past investigations. 

8 I don't know if that means closed without a

9 finding, but I think it would be hard for you

10 not to factor that into it.

11 MR. RAWALD: It could be hard for

12 me to be blind to the past. So, I think that

13 it would at least factor in my mindset. It

14 might be of less importance, but if it was

15 only because I didn't find those 49 others and

16 now I did, then it would be important.

17 MR. HURST: Doug, John Hurst from

18 Lennox.

19 Is one defined as one unit or one

20 jobsite? Some houses have two-three units;

21 some multi-family?

22 MR. RAWALD: I think the people I
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1 work with, it would be one unit.

2 MR. HURST: Okay.

3 MR. RAWALD: That would be what

4 they would be most comfortable with. But I

5 get what you are saying. Once again, a tract

6 housing situation where you may have that. 

7 But I think we are talking about one. I think

8 that one unit is probably what most would be

9 comfortable with. Let me go back and see if

10 there is any flexibility there, but that is

11 what they would most be comfortable with.

12 MR. WHITE: This is Chuck White.

13 Following up on John, I am not

14 thinking tract subdivision. I am thinking

15 McMansion where --

16 MR. HURST: Yes, single dwelling.

17 MR. WHITE: -- I might have two or

18 three systems that all went as a package. And

19 you might have some latitude in a discussion. 

20 I'm not doing it at 50 houses. It is just

21 what happened at this one. So, that might be

22 something you might have some latitude at.
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1 MR. RAWALD: Yes, let me bring

2 that back.

3 MR. WHITE: But you don't want to

4 necessarily put it in this language, but you

5 could see your way clear.

6 MR. RAWALD: Okay. Let me bring

7 that back, and I will come back to you. But

8 I understand what you are saying, and I want

9 to make sure we have this appropriately

10 tailored.

11 MR. EISNER: Okay. Is the rest of

12 this slide okay with everyone? Or are there

13 other issues that we might have to check with,

14 have Doug check on?

15 MS. SHEPHERD: Can I ask a

16 clarification question? So, the request for

17 retained records, that is the records that are

18 going to be delineated in this enforcement

19 rule, is the ones they have to keep? Is that

20 right?

21 MR. RAWALD: Right.

22 MS. SHEPHERD: Okay.
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1 MR. EISNER: Anything else on

2 this?

3 MR. BALLO: So, I guess maybe I

4 want to bounce this off the other efficiency

5 advocates. Are you all okay with this being

6 limited to a one-time violation or one

7 instance? Because, if what we are most

8 concerned with is getting remediation, if we

9 want to incentivize that, then maybe we do

10 prefer that even all 50 get remediated and you

11 can wipe away the violation with that?

12 MR. RAWALD: And then, just to be

13 clear, so the alternative to me is we still

14 have a finding of a one-time violation, but,

15 then, we issue a subsequent Notice of

16 Remediation. So, basically, they're out

17 there, that "Yeah, we had 50 of these. We

18 did, but we fixed them all." So, there is a

19 bad note and a good note on the public record.

20 What I want to do is I want to

21 minimize the number of cases that are not

22 publicly transparent, I think which is
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1 something the advocates would probably want. 

2 And I also want to incentivize the one guy who

3 makes a one-time mistake to really say, "I've

4 only done this once. I really did fix this

5 goofup. I don't want to have a public

6 finding."

7 But I don't want to reward the guy

8 who had 50 because he is very fast the way he

9 does it and he could fix them all. I want to

10 at least have some sort of public

11 accountability for him.

12 MR. SACHS: Now this is Harvey.

13 I am trying to think like this guy

14 who has done 50. I think I am going to have

15 a strong temptation to remediate with a

16 bankruptcy filing, that it is a whole lot

17 easier to get a new company name than it is to

18 remediate 50 units.

19 MR. EISNER: Other concerns,

20 questions, on 22?

21 (No response.)

22 Okay. We will hold off to vote
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1 until Doug checks and see if we can fix 23

2 before we take a break.

3 Is there anything people want to

4 raise on 23? We have already discussed a

5 little of it.

6 MR. BALLO: So, on the fifth

7 bullet, I think it is the fifth, "If clear,

8 violation will not count towards the finding

9 of routine violator," I guess I would want to

10 limit that to "unless repeated". So that, if

11 you come back six months later and they

12 installed another 50 units, even they

13 remediated the first 50, that at that point I

14 think they to be a routine violator.

15 MR. EISNER: Anything else? Any

16 comments on this?

17 MS. MEYERS: This is Karen with

18 Rheem.

19 What does the sub-bullet under

20 bullet 4 mean?

21 MR. RAWALD: So, that goes to, I

22 wanted some language from Bryan Rocky to
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1 encompass broader than warranty claims because

2 there are some no-hassle things, some of the

3 stuff we discussed last week.

4 But, basically, it is we are going

5 to come back to the manufacturer and say, "You

6 guys didn't pay for this replacement, right? 

7 The contractor did." And if you have record

8 that the contractor, through some other means,

9 as you mentioned last week, shooting up the

10 unit, is actually making sure the manufacturer

11 pays for the thing that he should be paying

12 for, then I am going to say, "Sorry,

13 Manufacturer" -- or "Installer, it doesn't cut

14 it."

15 MR. MELCHI: Doug, this is Jon

16 from HARDI.

17 If we could have that extended to

18 distributors, because oftentimes my

19 distributors will provide warranty coverage

20 beyond what the manufacturers do.

21 MR. RAWALD: Right. Actually, I

22 think Bryan mentioned that, and I think that
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1 is fair.

2 MR. MELCHI: Thank you.

3 MR. RAWALD: So, there are some

4 no-hassle guarantee-type things.

5 MR. MELCHI: Uh-hum.

6 MR. RAWALD: So, that's fine.

7 MR. MELCHI: This is Jon with

8 HARDI.

9 Just a question, as I am thinking

10 about, in the event a distributor was trying

11 to remediate the problem, we obviously don't

12 do installs. My understanding, and what I

13 have told my members, is that if the

14 contractor has skipped town and you had a

15 branch manager colluding with the contractor,

16 that the distributor would, then, be on the

17 hook for paying for the installs.

18 Is that interpretation correct? 

19 That is what we have assumed, but I wanted to

20 make sure that is correct?

21 MR. RAWALD: Right. I'm nodding

22 my head yes.
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1 MR. MELCHI: Yes, okay.

2 MR. RAWALD: I agree with that.

3 MR. MELCHI: Thank you.

4 MR. RAWALD: That is what would

5 have to happen, for the distributor to be

6 deemed to have remediated.

7 MR. MELCHI: Okay. Thank you.

8 MR. EISNER: Anything else on this

9 slide?

10 MR. MELCHI: This is Jon with

11 HARDI.

12 Sorry, one last question. In the

13 event a homeowner reports that their unit is

14 not installed properly or they have an

15 improper unit, and they don't want Chuck's

16 company coming back out because they felt like

17 they were misled, but Chuck is offering to fix

18 this problem. How would the Department view

19 that scenario?

20 MR. RAWALD: Chuck I think talked

21 before about subcontracting a job. He would

22 call up his friend Bryan and say, "Bryan, I'm
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1 going to give you the fee. Go ahead and do

2 this for me."

3 MR. MELCHI: Okay. Thank you.

4 MR. WHITE: I guess I don't have a

5 defense for it, but I would just like to bring

6 it out, that in some installations the

7 contractor is not the person who furnished the

8 equipment. So, you are the person installing

9 20 units in an apartment complex and they

10 rolled up on the truck from the owner. Or it

11 is actually very common in the apartment

12 industry. They buy stuff direct through their

13 own supply chain, and they just look for

14 somebody to take bids to install these 10

15 units.

16 So, are we saying -- and I just

17 want clarification -- are we saying that, if

18 I am the contractor and I am given this

19 equipment, that I either decline to install

20 them or face the music?

21 MR. RAWALD: Right. So, my

22 preference would be the latter. I don't want
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1 contractors to be saying, "I don't want to do

2 this job," and walking off the job. But I

3 also, if they do the job, to hold both the

4 contractor and the guy who got the equipment

5 to them, because I think they meet the

6 definition of contractor, too, that we have

7 put out there to be held responsible.

8 So, they would share the kind of

9 remediation obligation if we went to that

10 juncture. But I want contractors to feel

11 empowered to say, "I don't want to install

12 this. This is not the right thing." And I

13 think it is a fair thought. I know some

14 won't, but I guess I don't want those guys

15 doing the jobs.

16 MR. WHITE: And I understand that. 

17 I have in my career walked off a project and

18 said, "I can't do this." And I have walked

19 away from what could have been some money. 

20 But money talks to a lot of people, and

21 especially coming out of not boom times,

22 people are very reluctant at times to walk
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1 away from a project.

2 But I am not trying to defend it. 

3 I just want to know, if I am going to write

4 something to tell people, "Look, Guys, if you

5 do it, it is certainly your choice, but you

6 are not excused from this section."

7 Really, as long as I know the

8 rule, as long as I am clear, I am okay with

9 that.

10 MR. RAWALD: Right. That is what

11 the rules are going to be.

12 MR. EISNER: Anything else on 23?

13 (No response.)

14 Are we ready to vote on this? 

15 Anybody object to this being listed as

16 unanimously adopted?

17 (No response.)

18 Okay. Consider that one done.

19 And let's take a 15-minute break. 

20 It's 20 of.

21 (Whereupon, the foregoing matter

22 went off the record at 10:39 a.m. and went
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1 back on the record at 11:00 a.m.)

2 MR. EISNER: Doug wants to go back

3 to slide 21. I think he has got an insert in

4 there, I guess after talking to DOE people.

5 MR. RAWALD: Right, and it is

6 actually slide 22.

7 So, I teed this up. I ran into

8 the people who were concerned. Everyone is

9 comfortable with this caveat. So, I have

10 talked to Charlie and Chuck quickly about what

11 language would be most appropriate to narrow

12 it.

13 So, we have written it down as,

14 "If a non-compliant installation in one

15 residence" -- in one residence, so a McMansion

16 or a small house like mine -- "is remediated

17 before DOE makes a finding, then DOE will

18 issue a case closed letter to the party being

19 investigated."

20 So, that is the compromise that

21 they were willing to offer. I think it meets

22 everyone's needs. So, we are prepared to say
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1 yes to this.

2 MR. EISNER: Does anybody have any

3 objection to adopting that language and the

4 entirety of slide 22?

5 (No response.)

6 Okay, hearing no objections, will

7 treat this one as unanimous.

8 And I think that brings us to

9 slide 24, routine violator.

10 MR. RAWALD: And this is Doug.

11 This is a lot of things that we

12 talked about last week. There isn't anything

13 new here, except at the very end where I

14 discuss about issuing the notice.

15 And so, we, as our current course

16 of conduct, have an enforcement website which

17 we keep things on. Because manufacturers are

18 going to have sort of possible liability for

19 dealing with these folks, we would want to

20 offer the option to send out a blast email if

21 people feel that is appropriate. So, I am

22 asking you if you would prefer that as opposed
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1 to having to watch our website for current

2 events. We are open to providing that. We

3 can do that.

4 Those folks who are on our email

5 list already for rulemaking activity know that

6 that is a pretty easy process. And so, it

7 would be similar to that, where if we issue a

8 finding, you would get something in your email

9 box saying, "Oop, this is what has happened."

10 So, I hoping that, if people want

11 that, we can do it.

12 MR. MELCHI: This is Jon Melchi

13 with HARDI.

14 Doug, I am thinking of our

15 relationship with EPA. When there is a

16 violation or something regarding refrigerants,

17 the agency makes at least an effort to reach

18 out directly to the trade associations,

19 knowing that maybe a lot of our members aren't

20 on the DOE mailing list, but that we can make

21 sure to publicize that information to our

22 members in those areas.
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1 Is that something the Department

2 can commit to doing?

3 MR. RAWALD: Right. So, what we

4 would say is, "You subscribe to our list," and

5 you would get it. And then, you could send it

6 out as you feel is appropriate.

7 MR. HURST: Doug, this is John

8 Hurst from Lennox.

9 I like the idea of having the

10 website and pushing, you know, if you have the

11 information.

12 The other question I would have

13 is, if you -- and this is back to slide 18. 

14 I am not going to get into the weeds on it. 

15 But when you request information from a

16 manufacturer, distributor, or contractor -- a

17 contractor is pretty easy. You go to the

18 proprietor. A manufacturer, who is the point

19 of contact and how do you establish that?

20 MR. RAWALD: Yes. So, typically,

21 when I reach out to a company, I call up the

22 company and I find out the appropriate person
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1 for either receiving service of process, so we

2 look at the company records in the Secretary

3 of State database, or we will call the company

4 and say, "Who is the Vice President of

5 Engineering?" Because we are looking for data

6 usually.

7 So, I am open to different people

8 being the appropriate people. But we would

9 look at those two areas, typically, is how I

10 usually handle that.

11 Because we would be doing a

12 subpoena, I think we would just go with the

13 person who is listed as a service-of-process

14 person within the company. But if the company

15 wants to put forward a different person for

16 that, I guess we are amenable to that. It is

17 just going to be hard from 100,000 contractors

18 to submit an appropriate person to notify,

19 but, from the manufacturer's point of view, I

20 certainly think that we could look at that.

21 I mean, I want to make this

22 effective, right? So, I don't want the boss
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1 and the bureaucracy of a company. So, if Dave

2 says to me, "It's really better just to email

3 me, and I'll be the person to accept it," then

4 we will do that. And that is how we will do

5 that, an interoffice record. And then, we

6 will make sure we follow up on that one when

7 we have an issue with Allied Air, for example.

8 MR. EISNER: Any other comments,

9 questions?

10 (No response.)

11 Should we take the question mark

12 out of the last line, then, and vote on this?

13 Anybody object to this being

14 unanimously adopted?

15 MS. SHEPHERD: I just have another

16 question. So, in terms of when DOE is trying

17 to find, when DOE is examining whether a

18 manufacturer knew of a routine violation, is

19 this the same analysis that is going to be

20 used? This could be tied into an issue I am

21 sure will come up regarding when exactly that

22 happens. But I guess that is my question.
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1 MR. RAWALD: Right. So, assuming

2 that DOE required -- it is not only based upon

3 DOE's decision, but if prior to DOE finding a

4 routine violation, if we have reason to

5 believe that a manufacturer has sufficient

6 knowledge to decide if someone is a routine

7 violator and kept selling to that person,

8 anyway, what would be the factors that we

9 would look at?

10 These would certainly be the same

11 factors if we were to do that. So, I really

12 want to trust that I think when we get to that

13 part, we really want to look for actual

14 knowledge there. So, I think it is going to

15 be even harder than this.

16 MR. McCRUDDEN: This is Charlie

17 with ACCA.

18 How would a distributor become a

19 routine violator?

20 MR. RAWALD: Right. So, the

21 distributor has two different violations that

22 we have discussed. One of them is the knowing
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1 collusion with somebody, essentially. So, if

2 somebody comes up to your desk, and always

3 people keep coming up to the desk and saying,

4 "I'm going to Mississippi," "I'm going to

5 Alabama," and you keep selling them products. 

6 So, routinely you are doing that. That is one

7 way.

8 The second way is you are dealing

9 with someone who is on the list and you deal

10 with a lot of people who are on the list

11 already. So, it has to be routine, but it is

12 a pattern of conduct on the part of the

13 distributor of dealing with people who are on

14 the list already that we have said they are

15 routine violators.

16 MR. EISNER: Anything else?

17 (No response.)

18 Does anybody object to this being

19 unanimously adopted?

20 (No response.)

21 Hearing no objections, this is now

22 adopted.
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1 That takes us to slide 25, the

2 right to appeal.

3 Any questions or comments?

4 MR. DORIA: Yes, this is Jordan.

5 Is this for both findings of

6 violations and finding of routine violations?

7 MR. RAWALD: Right. So, we are

8 only talking about appeals of finding of a

9 routine violator. So, if you are found to be

10 a routine violator, that is a point where you

11 could say, "All these violations I have aren't

12 correct. So, here's why." So, that is how we

13 envision it.

14 That is why the first bullet

15 there, "The party will have a right to

16 administrative appeal of finding of a routine

17 violator."

18 MR. MELCHI: This is Jon Melchi

19 with HARDI.

20 Is this information, distributors

21 having never received any sort of notice like

22 this before, are these steps outlined when the
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1 Department would find a filing, how to appeal

2 it?

3 MR. RAWALD: Right. So, any

4 notice we would issue would include all the

5 remedies. And so, let's go back to Notice of

6 Violation. If I send someone a Notice of

7 Violation, it would include language saying,

8 "You may be able to remediate. The proper

9 process for remediation would be to do" X. 

10 And then, following that, we will notice a

11 Notice of Remediation.

12 So, the same thing with, if I file

13 a Notice of Routine Violation, I will say,

14 "You have the ability to appeal. Your

15 appellate rights are the following." I would

16 say here's what you do and here is how you do

17 it.

18 So, we want to make sure people

19 have all the tools necessary to respond

20 appropriately. That is our obligation to you.

21 Manufacturers, once again, we have

22 this Notice of Non-Compliance for products,
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1 and it outlines it out. So, you could look at

2 that example if you want, Jon, we have it

3 online. But it shows you how we do that.

4 MR. DORIA: This is Jordan again.

5 A question on the third bullet

6 saying, the sub-bullet there, "DOE still could

7 determine whether or not the appeal will go to

8 a next level within the Department or to an

9 independent hearing."

10 Can you comment on how DOE is

11 making that decision?

12 MR. RAWALD: So, it is a

13 bureaucratic issue. So, we have an

14 independent Office of Hearings and Appeals

15 that is run by somebody that I don't have any

16 authority over nor ability to require to do

17 anything. And so, we have to ask him if he

18 would want to take on this extra work. And if

19 they are, then I think this would be good,

20 appropriate place for it. If they are not,

21 then the next best thing is to have it go to

22 the next level within the Office of General
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1 Counsel, who would be at least someone

2 independent, because they are not briefed on

3 all these things. They are just going to look

4 at it and say, okay, from a fresh set of eyes.

5 So, those are the kind of two

6 options we have bureaucratically. I think the

7 strong preference would be the independent

8 Hearing Office, but I can't commit them to it

9 until I talk to them and say -- I have asked

10 people who have the appropriate interaction

11 with these people to ask them, but it is a

12 bureaucratic issue.

13 So, I feel comfortable voting on

14 it, in that, either way, it is going to be a

15 good resolution, but if you folks want to wait

16 until we get there, you are going to have to

17 wait a little while before we get that

18 bureaucratic understanding worked out.

19 (Laughter.)

20 MS. SHEPHERD: And, Doug, this is

21 Amy.

22 So, just from the manufacturers'
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1 perspective, then they just have the existing

2 statutory process under civil penalties? Is

3 that how it works?

4 MR. RAWALD: Right. What would

5 happen with a manufacturer, we would find a

6 civil penalty and we would say you could do

7 all the things that you do in a civil penalty

8 process.

9 MS. SHEPHERD: Okay.

10 MR. ROCKY: Doug, this is Bryan

11 from Johnson Controls.

12 So, we are talking about the right

13 to appeal on the publication and notice of a

14 violation. And on slide, I think, 31 we are

15 going to talk about manufacturers' rights. 

16 But, from a timeline standpoint, a

17 manufacturer's liability, once a notice is

18 published, manufacturers are going to be

19 required to start taking action. But you have

20 an appeal process that can take up to 75 days

21 or more, roughly, to process an appeal.

22 And at that point, if the appeal
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1 is denied, and if we have been doing business

2 with that contractor or that distributor, we

3 are still in violation, even though if the

4 appeal is denied, we should have stopped doing

5 business with them on day one. If the appeal

6 is upheld and we stop doing business with them

7 on day one, and they have been found to be

8 innocent, we have now put a significant

9 penalty on a customer for something that they

10 were proven innocent of doing.

11 MR. RAWALD: Right. I hear that.

12 MR. ROCKY: Can we talk about the

13 timeline?

14 MR. RAWALD: We can.

15 MR. ROCKY: We an address it as

16 part of slide 31.

17 MR. RAWALD: Right. That bullet

18 is squarely on slide 31. So, I mean, would

19 you want the timeline to be shorter for the

20 appeal? Is that why this is important to

21 hear, Bryan?

22 MR. ROCKY: I would just like
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1 clarification of, during an appeal process,

2 what the Department expects manufacturers or

3 distributors to do.

4 MR. RAWALD: Right. So, the

5 Department has given them -- and this is teed6 up for 31, but I might interplay here for the

7 timeline. So, I think it is important for

8 that purpose.

9 The Department's position going

10 into the negotiation is that we would want

11 manufacturers to make a choice. You know,

12 either we think this guy isn't really a

13 routine violator and we are supporting his

14 appeal, we are going to keep doing business

15 with him, or let's not do business with him

16 until this is sorted out.

17 And so, I think that is why I am

18 trying to have an accelerated timeline for

19 this. I think this is a pretty aggressive

20 timeline for the appeal process. But I want

21 to make sure that -- so, that is why I think

22 we need to have an aggressive -- but if you
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1 think it needs to be more aggressive, that's

2 fine, because I think that is the important

3 piece of it to me.

4 MR. ROCKY: So, just to clarify,

5 then, we are going to talk about on slide 31. 

6 But, from the date of a Notice of Violation,

7 what is the expected timeframe for a

8 manufacturer or distributor to actually take

9 action?

10 MR. RAWALD: So, once someone is

11 on notice that someone is a routine violator,

12 then they have knowledge. So, DOE could,

13 then, find that any units sold to that person

14 would be a commission of a prohibited act. 

15 So, that would be from that moment of notice.

16 MR. ROCKY: So, if Friday

17 afternoon at 5:05 p.m. DOE publishes a notice,

18 then on Monday morning I have to stop any

19 sales activities and business transactions

20 with that entity that has been found in

21 violation and have no time to actually work

22 and do that? And anything that happens
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1 Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, et cetera, I am in

2 possible violation?

3 MR. RAWALD: Well, I think that we

4 are going to be reasonable about it. We have

5 penalty scheme that tries to take that into

6 consideration. But we don't want people to

7 drag their feet, either.

8 So, I think that I need to hear

9 from you guys what the constraints would be,

10 and then, we could talk about it some more. 

11 I don't want to put the cart before the apple

12 horse (sic) because we could talk about this

13 for a long time. And we possibly could

14 resolve this issue of timing first.

15 So, for this slide's purposes, do

16 people feel like a more aggressive timeline or

17 a slower timeline would be better? Or is the

18 timeline we have put here good?

19 MS. SHEPHERD: Well, I think kind

20 of they dovetail, right?

21 MR. RAWALD: Okay.

22 MS. SHEPHERD: But what about 30
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1 days because, if they don't appeal by 30 days,

2 they can't appeal, right?

3 MR. RAWALD: Right.

4 MS. SHEPHERD: So, what if the

5 Department said that "We won't kick this in

6 until 30 days."? Because at that point,

7 either they are appealing or not. But I guess

8 that doesn't solve it if they do decide to

9 appeal.

10 Because the issue I think we

11 really face is it is easy for the Department

12 to say, "Well, you have to decide whether you

13 think this person is a routine violator." We

14 don't have any of the information that you

15 guys have.

16 MR. RAWALD: Right.

17 MS. SHEPHERD: And it is like a

18 12-factor list.

19 MR. RAWALD: Right.

20 MS. SHEPHERD: And the downside

21 is, you know, you face a real legal liability

22 if you decide to cut people off from business
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1 and, then, it turns out that they're innocent. 

2 And then, they are going to come back and say,

3 okay, well, business torts, refusal to deal. 

4 All kinds of stuff can happen.

5 MR. RAWALD: Uh-hum.

6 MS. SHEPHERD: So, I don't really

7 feel like that is a fair position. I think

8 that in 75 days I would really question how

9 much of this activity we really think is going

10 to be going on with this particular

11 distributor, given that they are in legal

12 proceedings with DOE, in terms of future harm.

13 So, I think it would make sense that, when it

14 is final and there is no appeal, that is when

15 it kicks in.

16 MR. RAWALD: So, what I am

17 hearing, then, is possibly 30 days or possibly

18 even longer if there is an appeal, for being

19 allowed to distribute.

20 MS. SHEPHERD: Yes. I mean, I

21 really think it has got to be until when the

22 appeal is final. Then, you have something
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1 that you can say, "Well, I have to terminate

2 business with you." And when they sue you for

3 tortious interference with business or when

4 they sue you for refusal to deal, you could

5 say, "There was an issuance by the Department

6 of Energy that said we couldn't do that with

7 you."

8 MR. RAWALD: Okay. So, I will tee

9 that up at lunch for people to talk about. I

10 am glad we gave that some thought.

11 On this particular slide, would it

12 make you feel better if we accelerated or

13 decelerated the timeline, or is the timeline

14 at this point appropriate, absent the decision

15 on the other thing?

16 MR. DORIA: This is Jordan.

17 I will say, for me, whether it is

18 45, 75, 60, that is not really, I don't think,

19 the issue. I think it is the other thing we

20 were just talking about.

21 So, I am fine with the timeline

22 being what it is. And we can, I think,
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1 discuss those issues further when we get to

2 slide 31.

3 MR. RAWALD: See, because from my

4 vantage point, if we are going to allow sales

5 during that timeframe, I would probably want

6 to give you only 15 days and decide your

7 appeal. Like I would want to make it shorter.

8 MR. McCRUDDEN: So, this is

9 Charlie with ACCA.

10 You know, obviously, this is a

11 routine violator. So, this person has

12 committed a lot of -- you know, bad folks. 

13 And I don't pretend to support them.

14 But, in this case, I have to sort

15 of suggest, if it is potentially a 46-to-75-

16 day timeframe before the appeal is concluded,

17 and we are talking about central air

18 conditioners, if you suppose that this comes

19 down in May, that contractor is out for the

20 season.

21 And so, if there is a way to

22 accelerate -- and I realize that puts more
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1 pressure on DOE -- but, if there is a way to

2 accelerate and get the appeal or the process

3 when you get to removal, and that is I know

4 the next slide, if you lose the season, that's

5 it.

6 MR. RAWALD: I would be content to

7 go to 15 days of notice, and appeal would be

8 decided within 30 days. And I think we could

9 do that.

10 MR. EISNER: Does anybody have a

11 good reason for it being at least 30 days? 

12 Anybody think that is the shortest it can be? 

13 How about the 15 days that Doug has suggested? 

14 Is that still a little longer? Could it --

15 MR. MELCHI: I am just trying to

16 put myself in the shoes of a business who has

17 never been through this before. I get this

18 notice, and, you know, you are trying to

19 think, well, okay, what do I do?

20 For instance, a lot of our

21 principals may be a little removed from the

22 business on a day-to-day basis. You may have
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1 an owner of a company who is removed from it. 

2 A letter comes. Fifteen days, that is not a

3 lot of time, and they would need to consult

4 with their attorneys and certain things.

5 I understand why we would want to

6 shorten the timeframe, but I am just concerned

7 for small businesses who haven't been through

8 this before, if that is just too fast of a

9 time for them to be able to comply.

10 MR. EISNER: What about a short

11 timeframe with the right to provide a

12 justifiable basis for a longer time? It's 15

13 days or it's 10 days, unless you come in with

14 justification for a longer period, the first

15 time I've had to do it. The second time you

16 shouldn't need it.

17 MR. MELCHI: Okay.

18 MR. EISNER: I mean, is that --

19 MR. MELCHI: You mean is the

20 second -- you're only going to be a routine

21 violator one time. Well, you can be removed. 

22 I guess I would probably have less sympathy
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1 for somebody who is on line for No. 2.

2 But just the first one, this is

3 something that, again, I am just trying to

4 think of our members and our customers who

5 maybe aren't as prepared for something like

6 this.

7 MR. WHITE: Well, this is Chuck

8 White.

9 And thinking about it from the

10 contractor's perspective, probably I've talked

11 to Doug. I have sent him some paperwork. We

12 may have had a couple of phone calls. But

13 probably I haven't really talked to my

14 attorney. Maybe I have, but probably all I

15 have done is pulled records and sent them to

16 you.

17 And now, I get this routine

18 violator thing. Now I do need some legal

19 help. And maybe I have already talked to

20 them, but if I haven't, I have got to get on

21 his schedule. I have got to have some

22 meetings with him, and he has got to get
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1 explained. I mean, that process is going to

2 take a bit.

3 And so, I don't think you probably

4 are realistic to do in 10 days. Thirty days

5 I think is probably fair. I wonder, as kind

6 of a stop-gap measure, if you could say,

7 "Pending an appeal or pending the result of an

8 appeal," whatever that might be, you limit

9 them to only complying equipment.

10 So, a manufacturer could still

11 sell to them 14 or better or the proper EER

12 equipment or better in that interim period

13 without completely cutting them off. You

14 cannot deal with them in product, but you

15 mitigate the possibility the possibility that

16 they are going to put the wrong stuff in

17 because you can't sell them the wrong stuff. 

18 I am just throwing that out there.

19 MR. EISNER: Would it help if,

20 when the letter went out saying we are

21 investigating you and you could be found to be

22 a routine violator, if you are found by us to
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1 be a routine violator, you have the right to

2 appeal, and they were told that at the

3 beginning of the process? They could think

4 about it at least instead of waiting until

5 they are actually found to be the routine

6 violator. Would that help?

7 MR. ELLIS: Doug, this is Ray from

8 Lincoln Electric.

9 I want to kind of back up to what

10 Tim had mentioned earlier with the big picture

11 here. It is that we want to make sure that

12 the appropriate units are installed in the

13 right areas. And if you don't necessarily

14 need to hold the manufacturers responsible for

15 that contractor until they have been proven

16 all the way through the appeals process that

17 they are a routine violator and they can no

18 longer be in business, but if during that

19 time, as Chuck had said, they have to install

20 compliant units, you know, I would think that

21 that still meets the overall criteria of what

22 we are trying to accomplish here, is that they
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1 are installing the appropriate units.

2 I am kind of muddling along here,

3 but I think you understand what I am talking

4 about.

5 MR. RAWALD: I do.

6 MR. ELLIS: Because that is their

7 worry right now, even the distributors, that

8 if a rogue contractor is now kind of on trial

9 through this process, that he has been

10 installing the wrong units, that they can only

11 now sell him -- they are not going to give him

12 anything that they would jeopardize themselves

13 for at that point.

14 MR. RAWALD: No, I hear that. And

15 so, what I am going to do over lunch is I am

16 going to bring these ideas back on the

17 manufacturer liability piece. So, I think

18 that they are all fair suggestions. So, I

19 want to bring that back and come back to you

20 guys with some answers after lunch.

21 MS. MEYERS: This is Karen with

22 Rheem.
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1 And kind of along the same line,

2 you publish something for a routine violator

3 on a contractor. Myself, as an OEM, in our

4 business model I would have no idea if he is

5 a customer of my distributor, of my customer,

6 or not.

7 So, okay, Joe's Heating and Air

8 has a violation. That tells me -- do I have

9 an obligation, then, to go investigate whether

10 my --

11 MR. RAWALD: No, no, because the

12 statute limits your liability to selling to

13 that person. So, I can't use the transitive

14 property to say, "Well, you sold to John," or

15 sold to Joe, "so, therefore, you are

16 responsible."

17 What I think you would do, the one

18 smart thing is you would call up Jon and say,

19 "Jon, please don't deal with Joe because I

20 don't want to lose you, buddy. You know,

21 you're my customer. I want you to be smart. 

22 So, please be careful with who you are dealing
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1 with."

2 That is the one thing that I think

3 that you would want to do from a business

4 point of view. But, otherwise, I think if a

5 contractor is found to be not someone to be a

6 routine violator, and you don't deal with that

7 contractor for any number of reasons, you

8 don't have to worry about it. And if you

9 don't deal with the contractors at all, then

10 you really should not worry about it, unless

11 you want to take that kind of proactive step

12 of talking to your distributor and saying,

13 "Hey, Distributor, you know that you could be

14 found liable if you keep dealing with these

15 guys who are on a list for DOE."

16 MR. MELCHI: This is Jon with

17 HARDI.

18 That was the scenario that we were

19 talking about, why we want this public

20 information. Because somebody is cut off at

21 Store A, and then, they go to the next county

22 over to try to reestablish themselves. So, we
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1 want to be able to try to communicate that

2 throughout all of our membership.

3 MR. RAWALD: So, I see this as a

4 kind of educational piece almost. So, you can

5 almost remind, "Hey, remember, Distributor,

6 this is the kind of thing that this could get

7 me in trouble."

8 MR. MELCHI: Yes.

9 MR. RAWALD: "So, be smart, so I

10 don't have to worry about what I'm doing."

11 MR. SACHS: Well, this is Harvey.

12 I am not finding it easy to

13 picture what your Notice of Routine

14 Violatorship looks like. But it seems to me

15 that, in terms of what I am hearing from the

16 upstream people, if that indicates -- David

17 has been found to be a routine violator by

18 selling SEER 13 Brand X equipment in such-and19 such a county.

20 MR. RAWALD: Right, we are not

21 doing that.

22 MR. SACHS: That would be much
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1 more useful.

2 MR. RAWALD: Right. So, Karen has

3 previously asked -- and I think it is

4 appropriate -- not to advertise what

5 particular brand of equipment they were

6 selling because of the concern that it would

7 give the brand a bad name that wouldn't be

8 deserved. So, I think that is appropriate.

9 So, our goal in the notice would

10 be to say the person themselves has installed

11 units in a particular location. So, it would

12 identify the area, and that it didn't comply

13 with the standards. So, it would be what the

14 standard would be. But we would not go into

15 details of what unit it was, what model it

16 was, what brand it was. I don't think that

17 would be appropriate, nor germane really. It

18 wouldn't help.

19 So, while I hear that, I think

20 that the more concern is the brand negativity

21 that could go from such a notice. So, we

22 wouldn't want to do that.
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1 MR. BALLO: This is Tim, and I

2 have some questions about this slide.

3 I am sorry for getting into the

4 weeds, but we are talking about appeals. As

5 a lawyer, I have to salivate a little bit.

6 (Laughter.)

7 First of all, it seems to be

8 structured only as an appeal of the finding of

9 routine violator. So, I take it from this

10 that there is no appeal for the initial

11 determination of a violation as to the

12 specific installation?

13 MR. RAWALD: Right. As designed

14 right now, that is correct.

15 MR. BALLO: Okay. The other

16 question I had is in the Office of Hearings

17 and Appeals process right now they have

18 something that they do that is not quite like

19 intervention, but it is an opportunity for

20 others to get involved, to participate, or

21 weigh-in on cases before them.

22 I don't know if that is something
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1 you all have thought about, if you would like

2 to keep that process in place for this. But,

3 if you are trying to limit the timeline of an

4 appeal, that generally --

5 MR. RAWALD: Right. So, that is

6 the constraint, right? They do do that. So,

7 what Tim is talking about, the Office of

8 Hearings and Appeals hears three different

9 issues that are germane to the Department. 

10 The ones we care about here are for appliance

11 efficiency exceptions to standards.

12 So, when a company can say, "Hey,

13 I know this standard is in effect from the

14 Department of Energy, but, for these reasons,

15 we can't meet it. Can we have an exception

16 from that standard for a period of time?",

17 then the Office of Hearings and Appeals asks

18 for public comment.

19 Now they don't typically publish

20 it in the Federal Register the way that the

21 Department does other things, but they will

22 proactively contact the people who they think
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1 are concerned and say, "Tell me what you think

2 of this."

3 But it takes a long time. And so,

4 that is why their decisions take a while. I

5 wouldn't see that being the case here, nor

6 would I think that it would be of value.

7 So, they have security clearance

8 cases they do, which are more like this, where

9 they revoke someone's security clearance

10 because of the actions they take, and then,

11 they have an appellate situation that they can

12 go to when someone wants to appeal the

13 decision.

14 So, this would be more akin to

15 that, which is we are making a finding. The

16 person can talk to the Office and let them

17 know their thoughts. And then, it would be

18 the Office would make a final decision.

19 Now I haven't worked out with them

20 that they would do this yet, but I think that

21 is how we would pitch to them, would be that

22 kind of process, because we want to keep it
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1 streamlined and quick.

2 MR. BALLO: Okay. And I take it

3 that the outcome of that appeal would, then,

4 be subject to judicial review?

5 MR. RAWALD: Right. So, people

6 always have the opportunity to sue the

7 Department from an outcome. So, they could do

8 that.

9 And so, the problem is, when does

10 that end and how does that affect the

11 manufacturer liability? So, I don't know how

12 to parse that out. So, people could sue the

13 Department based upon an ultimate outcome of

14 a decision of the Department.

15 MR. DORIA: This is Jordan.

16 I just want to say that, not

17 unsurprisingly, I am definitely supportive of

18 going through the Office of Hearings and

19 Appeals. So, just to put a stake in the

20 ground on that.

21 The only other thing I would say,

22 and I understand that you can't control that,
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1 but the only thing I really would not want is

2 for there to be a different process, that it

3 either always has to go to the Office of

4 General Counsel or all appeals have to go to

5 independent hearing. I wouldn't want there,

6 you know, by happenstance or bureaucratic

7 issues, that it sort of varied from time to

8 time, I wouldn't to see that.

9 MR. RAWALD: Right. It would be

10 uniform.

11 MR. EISNER: Any discussion on the

12 45-day timeframe? You haven't talked about

13 that. That is more of a burden probably on

14 the Department getting a decision out that

15 fast. So, you said you could accept 30?

16 MR. RAWALD: Well, I think if we

17 went to 15 days of notice, we could do 30 days

18 of filing, because I would presume that the

19 notice would probably -- the filing they would

20 have would probably be shorter, frankly.

21 (Laughter.)

22 But I have to think about it some
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1 more. But I think the 45 days is a pretty

2 good number. Thirty days would be aggressive,

3 but we could do it, I think. But I am not the

4 one doing it, so I would be committing a lot

5 of people of doing things that they wouldn't

6 necessarily agree to. So, I have to ask back.

7 MR. EISNER: And would there be

8 any latitude for justification by the

9 Department for a longer period, that is, 45

10 days?

11 MR. RAWALD: Right. So, I think

12 that goes to the question of manufacturer

13 liability. If we are going to send that out,

14 and the manufacturers are going to be

15 operating in uncertainty, that wouldn't be

16 fair. So, if there is no liability attached

17 to us taking more time, then I think that it

18 would be more likely that we would be more

19 likely to extend the day.

20 So, I think that comes back to

21 that question on slide 31 about the liability

22 for dealing with these guys when they are in
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1 that kind of pendency-of-appeal situation.

2 MR. EISNER: I mean, could there

3 be a process whereby you, the Government,

4 would have to ask the appellate decisionmaker

5 for authority to take 45 days?

6 MR. RAWALD: I'm not certain; I am

7 not sure I understand your question.

8 MR. EISNER: Well, we talked about

9 15 days for the public to file.

10 MR. RAWALD: Uh-hum.

11 MR. EISNER: But they, if given

12 justification, could extend it to 30 days, if

13 they needed it. I am saying, if you put it at

14 30 days, but you could get 45 days if whoever

15 was making the appellate decision approved

16 your request.

17 MR. RAWALD: Right.

18 MR. EISNER: Or the parties --

19 MR. RAWALD: I guess we wouldn't

20 be making the request, right? The appellate

21 authority would say, "We need more time to

22 process this request. So, we are going to
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1 take more time." So, they would be deciding

2 on their own, because the government is not

3 going to be -- we have our case already. So,

4 we are just going to give them the record that

5 we have established. We are not going to be

6 a party to the administrative process.

7 MR. EISNER: Okay.

8 MR. RAWALD: So, it is going to

9 be, "Here's the record we've established. 

10 Here's our challenge to the administrative

11 process. What do you think?"

12 So, I don't see the Department

13 asking them to take more time. I could see

14 the body saying, "We need more time because

15 it's awfully complicated." But these

16 shouldn't be that complicated. So, the hope

17 is that wouldn't happen.

18 So, I wouldn't want to give them

19 the discretion to do that, especially if it

20 creates uncertainty for the manufacturers down

21 the chain. So, that is my concern.

22 MR. EISNER: And what,
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1 traditionally, under your process would happen

2 if the adjudicator did not decide within 45

3 days?

4 MR. RAWALD: Yes, this is a case

5 of first impression, you know.

6 MR. EISNER: Anybody want to lower

7 the 45 days? Anybody suggest that? Or is

8 everybody comfortable with leaving it at 45?

9 MR. DORIA: Neil, I mean, I just

10 don't think we can entirely decide this

11 independent of some of the liability questions

12 and the issues on, you know, can we sell them

13 products 14 SEER and above. There is no way

14 I think that, at least as a representative of

15 Ingersoll Rand, that I can vote for this until

16 we get those other answers.

17 MR. EISNER: Through the later

18 slides?

19 Everybody agree with that? They

20 want to wait on this one? Okay.

21 All right. The next slide is

22 removal from routine violator list.
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1 MR. McCRUDDEN: This is Charlie

2 with the ACCA.

3 Is it the 90 days? Is that a set4 in-stone figure?

5 MR. RAWALD: No.

6 MR. McCRUDDEN: Okay. Is that a

7 typical -- does DOE --

8 MR. RAWALD: There is no

9 typicality to it at all. This is a number.

10 MR. McCRUDDEN: So, what I am

11 thinking of is the case where a contractor

12 goes from zero to routine violator instantly,

13 but, yet, satisfies the first bullet

14 relatively quickly. Now is sitting around for

15 90 days pending whatever we decide about

16 whether they can get compliant equipment or

17 not or non-standard or non-subject to regional

18 standard equipment or not.

19 That just seems a long time. If

20 you have gotten to the first bullet, to get to

21 the second bullet it seems like a long time.

22 MR. RAWALD: And I am open to
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1 shortening that. So, this is in some way a

2 sanction, right, for not remediating earlier. 

3 So, we are finally getting around to it now

4 that we have issued the final big one. So, if

5 you want to make it shorter, I think that

6 would be fine. I just want to hear from

7 folks.

8 MR. EISNER: Can you walk us

9 through what you would be doing after they

10 notified you that they had completed all

11 remediation that would take time?

12 MR. RAWALD: Waiting.

13 MR. HURST: Yes. So, I think I'm

14 fairly ambivalent. I think if the intent is

15 to put somebody out of business, which I don't

16 think it is, 90 days seems excessive. I think

17 if they are a routine violator and they have

18 had 20 instances, you think about what they

19 have to do. They have to not only expend the

20 labor to go out and remediate, but they also

21 have a dead piece of inventory that they

22 installed that there is relatively no market
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1 for.

2 So, you are removing a used piece

3 of equipment. I wouldn't presume the

4 manufacture is going to take it back because

5 it is subject to a violation. The manufacture

6 is not going to take it back. So, you are not

7 only eating the labor, but you are eating the

8 cost of the equipment that you bought.

9 MR. RAWALD: How about 30 days?

10 MR. HURST: Yes, I think so.

11 MR. RAWALD: Okay.

12 MR. HURST: I would be more

13 supportive of a shorter time period because I

14 think the real punishment is in the

15 remediation because there is a huge cost to

16 it.

17 MR. RAWALD: That's fine.

18 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey.

19 And just in the general philosophy

20 we have been trying to do of keeping on

21 encouraging remediation, even at this stage,

22 you do it and you're out of jail is a good
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1 signal to send. And I can't see any reason

2 why we would want 90 days instead of a much

3 shorter time, particularly if that 90 days

4 starts on the 1st of June.

5 MR. EISNER: Are you fine with 30?

6 MR. SACHS: I would only ask, if

7 we need as much as 30 to administratively

8 issue the notice --

9 MS. MEYERS: This is Karen.

10 MR. SACHS: -- that Karen is no

11 longer a violator, a routine violator.

12 MS. MEYERS: Can we say, "No

13 longer than 30 days"?

14 MR. RAWALD: That's fine.

15 MS. MEYERS: So, I mean, it could

16 be done --

17 MR. RAWALD: So, it could be done

18 earlier? Uh-hum.

19 MR. EISNER: Anybody object to

20 that?

21 (No response.)

22 Does anybody have any other
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1 problems with any other language in slide 26?

2 MS. NOLL: I have a question. 

3 This is Elizabeth.

4 On the removal of the routine

5 violator, is there any -- like the person

6 comes back a year later and remediates? Is

7 that still ability to get removed from the

8 list?

9 MR. RAWALD: In my opinion, yes.

10 MS. NOLL: Okay.

11 MR. EISNER: But you're saying, in

12 your opinion, they could not come back a year

13 later?

14 MR. RAWALD: No, I'm saying they

15 could.

16 MR. EISNER: They could come

17 back --

18 MR. RAWALD: I am saying someone

19 could come back at anytime and say, "Hey, I

20 have completed my remediation. Can I be

21 removed now?" And we say, "Yes. Great." And

22 we will within 30 days issue a notice saying
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1 you have been remediating, after I have, of

2 course, cleared all the obstacles with the

3 manufacturers and everyone else.

4 MR. EISNER: Okay. Does anybody

5 have any objection?

6 MS. NOLL: So, in that scenario,

7 would 30 days be enough time for you to clear

8 all those obstacles?

9 MR. RAWALD: I think so.

10 MS. NOLL: Okay.

11 MR. EISNER: Would the second

12 bullet change from 90 to 30 days?

13 Does anybody object to slide 26

14 being adopted unanimously?

15 (No response.)

16 Okay. No one objects. We can go

17 on to slide 27, 28.

18 MR. RAWALD: Right.

19 MR. EISNER: Energy Guide Label.

20 MR. RAWALD: And this is what I

21 think AHRI was working on. And I don't know

22 if you guys presented something last week when
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1 I wasn't here that had some sort of thought.

2 But I know that we had discussed

3 previously about our body making a

4 recommendation to FTC to streamline the label

5 to be consistent with what we have designed

6 here. So, I don't know if we have an outcome

7 we have already agreed to or not for how we

8 would do that.

9 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim with

10 AHRI.

11 I think you were not in the room,

12 Doug, but we showed the labels and everybody

13 has seen the labels. So, I am not sure if we

14 need to have further discussion on it.

15 MS. MEYERS: Karim, this is Karen.

16 I think he is talking about the

17 FTC mockup, Energy Guide mockup. Is that what

18 you --

19 MR. AMRANE: Yes, yes, we did.

20 MR. RAWALD: Right. Because I

21 wasn't here last Wednesday when I know we were

22 talking about labeling. So, I am not sure if
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1 everyone agreed with that or not. I haven't

2 seen it. So, if everyone is comfortable

3 with --

4 MR. EISNER: Does anybody want to

5 see the labels?

6 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey.

7 Karim sent the labels to me. I

8 circulated them to the advocates. I may have

9 forgotten Ray. But, otherwise, we have seen

10 them and had a chance to respond. I heard no

11 responses from our community.

12 MR. RAWALD: So, Harvey, does that

13 mean that you are content with the label that

14 AHRI proposed as being the one that we propose

15 that FTC adopt?

16 MR. SACHS: Well, this is Harvey,

17 and I would much prefer a deeper process with

18 focus groups and testing out alternatives, but

19 it ain't going to happen. So, yes.

20 MR. RAWALD: Okay. So, if we can

21 get an electronic copy? You gave it to Laura,

22 I guess, already. Okay, and we will
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1 incorporate it in here. Okay.

2 MR. BALLO: So, this is Tim.

3 And I had flagged this earlier, I

4 guess, when we talked about the label. The

5 label that AHRI has circulated is fine except

6 that it does eliminate the indication of

7 capacity, which I think in comments on the

8 recent FTC proposed rule, a bunch of

9 efficiency organizations and consumer groups

10 had recommended something different rather

11 than eliminating capacity.

12 So, for the changes that are

13 crucial to this rulemaking, we are totally

14 fine with the depiction of the 14 SEER. Just

15 that capacity issue is -- I wouldn't want to

16 get people confused that we also endorsed

17 removing capacity from the label.

18 MR. RAWALD: And I guess, given

19 this is another Department's activity, I

20 really feel the Department doesn't have a

21 position on this. So, we are abstaining from

22 the vote on it, and we will let you guys
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1 decide. And if you think it is appropriate to

2 push forward, then we will.

3 MR. ROCKY: So, this is Bryan.

4 In this discussion I am not going

5 to speak for every manufacturer, but I think

6 everyone is doing the same thing. We are

7 already today processing changes on the FTC

8 labels, per the FTC requirements for January

9 1. And if this Committee decides to do

10 something different, it means we are going

11 through that same process again and do the

12 same engineering work to change a label a

13 second time within a very short period.

14 And I only want to do this once. 

15 So, I have no faith that FTC is going to

16 accept what this Committee recommends. So, at

17 this point, I have no option but to change to

18 what FTC requires.

19 MR. RAWALD: Right, I think that

20 is a fact, Bryan. Everyone has to be doing on

21 January 1st what is currently required by the

22 FTC. Any change we recommend will not be
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1 effective before January 1st. So, you're

2 stuck with doing the label as is right now. 

3 You're going to have to do it.

4 The question is whether we think

5 that we should go to FTC and say, "Do

6 something quickly, so we can get to something

7 that is going to be more effective in the near

8 future."

9 I don't know what their timelines

10 are. So, I think it is going to be a while

11 before they can act on it.

12 MR. ROCKY: So, doing something

13 quickly is likely to say, "Yeah, we can do

14 something quickly by the middle of 2015 or the

15 end of 2015," and we are going to redo

16 something we just redid and confuse our

17 customers through the entire chain to a little

18 more degree than we already have on something

19 that everyone thinks is one of the key factors

20 to help our customers understand whether they

21 are buying a complying product.

22 MR. RAWALD: So, Bryan, this is
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1 Doug.

2 So, I guess to get down to brass

3 tacks, are you saying you would prefer the

4 Committee not make a recommendation to the FTC

5 and just live with what we have or make a

6 recommendation to the FTC? Those are kind of

7 the two options.

8 We have what we have. It is going

9 to be what is going to happen January 1st. We

10 are not going to be able to get FTC to change

11 before then. That is the reality.

12 So, either we can recommend a

13 change, understanding that is going to require

14 more on the part of the manufacturers to

15 change downstream, or we can just live with

16 what is already there. I guess it is the

17 question before the folks and the real board

18 today.

19 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim with

20 AHRI.

21 I think we should go ahead with

22 the recommendation, with the understanding
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1 that, yes, FTC will have to do a rulemaking

2 and, yes, manufacturers will have to change

3 their labels, assuming that FTC agrees with

4 us.

5 MR. ROCKY: Yes, Doug, this is

6 Bryan.

7 I think we have to proceed with

8 making a recommendation request. But it is

9 just one more item of unexpected consequences. 

10 We are all doing this twice, and we are going

11 to have to explain differences in labels

12 twice. And I am not sure the value added of

13 doing it now, but I am okay in continuing with

14 making a recommendation as part of this

15 activity.

16 MS. MEYERS: This is Karen with

17 Rheem.

18 Why is DOE going to abstain from

19 this? Because I think it would be helpful if

20 we could have DOE's endorsement of the AHRI

21 recommendation and this Committee's

22 recommendation.
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1 MR. RAWALD: So, I need to go back

2 and talk to people about that. So, I will go

3 back and look at it. Frankly, I haven't even

4 looked at it myself because I wasn't here for

5 that meeting. So, I will ask Laura to email

6 it to me, and I will come back. And if I can

7 vote for it, I will.

8 MR. ROCKY: So, one last thing --

9 this is Bryan -- Tim brought it up, as the

10 energy advocates have stated positions with

11 FTC regarding capacity. And we come up with

12 a different recommendation, as this Committee,

13 that is implying that the energy advocates are

14 accepting the final discussion of whether we

15 have a capacity as an item or not on that

16 label, right?

17 MR. BALLO: So, Doug, that is what

18 I was suggesting, that I wouldn't want to

19 confuse people about that. So, I agree with

20 the depiction of the SEER value. I don't have

21 authority to speak for the groups that signed

22 off on what we said about capacity.
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1 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim with

2 AHRI.

3 I mean, we made the changes to the

4 label based on what the FTC has today. Okay? 

5 And there is no capacity, and that is it. So,

6 we are not addressing the issue of capacity. 

7 I think it is part of the comments for the

8 comment period. And if the FTC comes back

9 saying that we need to have capacity, then we

10 will have capacity on the label on this.

11 MR. RAWALD: Right. I would

12 recommend that anything that comes from the

13 Board be capacity-neutral; essentially, that

14 we have no position on the capacity issue, and

15 we are just looking at a way to recommend to

16 FTC appropriately to know what the SEER and

17 EER value, where required, through the label,

18 consistent with what we have come forward with

19 as our enforcement plan.

20 MR. EISNER: Any additional

21 discussion needed on the label, the FTC label?

22 MR. SACHS: Just clarification. 
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1 This is Harvey.

2 I am understanding that not

3 including capacity in our recommendation,

4 being capacity-neutral, means that advocates

5 during the comment period at FTC can still

6 reiterate their "ask" for that.

7 MR. RAWALD: Yes.

8 MR. SACHS: Thank you.

9 MR. RAWALD: Uh-hum.

10 MR. EISNER: Anything else?

11 MR. RAWALD: Okay. So, I want to

12 take this back over lunch and come back and

13 vote on it, because I want to make sure. 

14 Karen has asked me to vote for it. So, I want

15 to go back and ask if I can.

16 So if Laura could email me the

17 label?

18 MS. DEGITZ: I can't --

19 MR. RAWALD: Okay. It's not

20 there? Okay. Somebody else can email me the

21 label possibly?

22 MS. DEGITZ: I can email it, just
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1 after --

2 MR. RAWALD: Okay, okay.

3 MR. EISNER: Okay. Everybody fine

4 with that?

5 (No response.)

6 Okay, the next one is slide 29,

7 manufacturer voluntary label.

8 MR. RAWALD: This, hopefully,

9 bears on the discussion. Because when I asked

10 Laura if people wanted to discuss it

11 yesterday, apparently, she was told, "No,

12 we're happy with it." So, I assume everyone

13 is happy with it.

14 MR. EISNER: Anybody want to

15 comment on whether they are happy?

16 MR. ROCKY: So, Doug, the only

17 thing that has come up, in the examples that

18 I had presented, we had included -- there were

19 two versions, one that just had the text that

20 says, "Install prohibited in Southwest and

21 Southeast" or Southwest. And the other had

22 the option of the website reference.
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1 And so, I think the discussion

2 was, would that website reference be required

3 as part of this versus the text? 

4 Considerations for space requirements and

5 available text and everything else.

6 So, I am not sure if that was

7 brought up as it must include both components

8 or if it is just the verbiage of "install

9 prohibited" that is acceptable to everybody

10 other than the manufacturers.

11 MR. WHITE: This is Chuck White.

12 This was an effort to make a down13 and-dirty, fast, easy -- people aren't going

14 to have smartphones, so they can look at web

15 links and we can't trust that somebody knows

16 how to use a computer. So, it had to be

17 something simple. Boom, there it is, easy to

18 understand.

19 So, I don't see there is a

20 definite need to have that website there. We

21 have already said we couldn't rely on people

22 to have to go look on a website and find the
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1 model number and all the stuff that is already

2 on that tag.

3 So, it seems like we have kind of

4 doubled-back on the argument, requiring to do

5 this simple language, if you are going to make

6 that requirement.

7 MR. ROCKY: So, Chuck, again,

8 coming back to this, this says/states,

9 "Install prohibited in pertinent regions". 

10 That is the added text that everyone came up

11 with. And I just wanted to make sure that

12 this is not adding a reference to a website as

13 a requirement.

14 MR. WHITE: Right. I think that

15 the "Install prohibited" was the fast and

16 easy --

17 MR. ROCKY: Right.

18 MR. WHITE: -- understandable, and

19 adding additional things like that, I don't

20 see the need to do that.

21 MR. EISNER: Does anybody object

22 to this approach and want more?
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1 MR. SACHS: Bryan, I don't seem to

2 have brought my copy of your label. But

3 please remind me if that has either a graphic,

4 which I don't think it had, but it doesn't

5 have the list of states. It just has the

6 region, and you have to refer to the FTC

7 label.

8 MR. ROCKY: This is Bryan.

9 The version I just handed Harvey

10 just has the text. I am out of the other

11 version that had, below that text in the

12 smaller font was just "Refer to

13 www.productinfo.energy.gov for more

14 information."

15 If you have room for it, you can

16 put something there, but didn't want to make

17 that a requirement. So, that is just

18 verifying what is on the screen here.

19 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey again.

20 Thank you, and I particularly want

21 to thank the manufacturers for offering to do

22 this because I think it is enormously helpful.
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1 I would find, as a consumer, that

2 "Southwest" is ambiguous. As a San Francisco

3 resident, I wouldn't think of myself as a

4 Southwestern.

5 And having reference, asterisks to

6 a website or something I think would be

7 helpful, if not mandatory. I would just as

8 soon have that included with the label.

9 MR. ROCKY: Well, this is Bryan.

10 Remember the discussion has been

11 that this is in addition to the FTC hang tags

12 that clearly delineate and define the regions. 

13 And so, if you are a homeowner and you are

14 concerned about whether your unit meets that

15 region, you should have already received the

16 FTC hang tag on the equipment at the time of

17 purchase and kept it with your installation

18 instructions, user's manuals, maintenance

19 records, and all the rest of it.

20 MR. SACHS: And I very much

21 appreciate it, Bryan, but that doesn't help if

22 a year later we have a real estate transaction
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1 and those items aren't available; the FTC

2 label is not on the condensing unit.

3 So, this in some sense has to at

4 least be minimally self-contained. And by the

5 asterisks, the easiest I can think of is not

6 to have the list of states, but an asterisk on

7 where you can get the definition of Southwest

8 and Southeast, that website.

9 Thank you.

10 MR. McCRUDDEN: So, this is

11 Charlie with the ACCA.

12 If you go to

13 productinfo.energy.gov, there is no list of

14 the states. It is basically the DOE's website

15 on -- it is where the DOE's more limited or

16 maybe more user-friendly version of AHRI's

17 directory.

18 So, I don't know; can you put that

19 on there or, if you can't, then is there a

20 point in using the website in determining

21 states?

22 MR. SACHS: You've got me in a
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1 "gotcha". I had assumed that the product info

2 was actually a proxy, an invented name for a

3 site, a page that DOE would implement.

4 MR. ROCKY: So, this is Bryan.

5 The intent of that on this sample

6 was just to illustrate a website could be

7 referenced, and that that website does exist

8 with pertinent energy efficiency data. If the

9 Committee decides or DOE decides that this

10 enforcement website, or whatever else, is more

11 appropriate, that could be considered.

12 I am just coming back to a

13 manufacturer adding a reference to a website

14 is additional voluntary information versus a

15 requirement, as what we talked about for this

16 label.

17 MS. SHEPHERD: And this is Amy

18 from AHRI.

19 And I know this seems like simple

20 language, but it was really hard to get to. 

21 So, I think that there is a distinction

22 between the Energy Guide as the consumer
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1 information and this. I mean, like if I was

2 a homeowner and you have your homeowner's

3 inspection, right, before you have the sale. 

4 It is not like you go around and do that.

5 And if the inspector sees "Install

6 prohibited," then, I mean, I think we are

7 assuming a certain level of sophistication

8 from this, but that is the intent of it. So,

9 I think that this fulfills that intent.

10 And then, if manufacturers want to

11 add other things, they can. But this language

12 in itself, it was hard to get folks to agree

13 to it, but they did.

14 MR. AMRANE: Right. This is Karim

15 with AHRI.

16 I think for some manufacturers,

17 maybe Bryan, JCI, they have space and they can

18 do it easily, and they are not fighting for

19 space. But, for other manufacturers, it is

20 going to be difficult to add more information. 

21 So, we need to keep that in mind.

22 We can make it voluntary and,
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1 then, just, yes, I can add or others can add

2 a website. But I think we really wanted to

3 limit the wording to the minimum possible

4 because of the space issue.

5 MS. MEYERS: Yes. And this is

6 Karen with Rheem.

7 If we make that mandatory, I can't

8 vote on this because I am very space9 constrained. So, that would mean that I

10 would, then, no longer support this label

11 until at a later time. I would have to go

12 back and check because it is another line, and

13 I am barely getting it in there now. Just so

14 you know.

15 MR. WHITE: So, this is Chuck

16 White.

17 Bryan, I have a question for you. 

18 If I go to your company's website, will I find

19 those states listed on your website? I will

20 I be able to find that information from

21 whichever brand of your information?

22 So, I mean, the most likely thing
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1 I am going to do, if I have your piece of

2 equipment, is go to your website.

3 MR. ROCKY: Yes, I think, Chuck,

4 that is a very reasonable discussion item,

5 that manufacturers will either list the

6 information or list a reference link to get

7 more information to the DOE website or the FTC

8 website because of the hang tags.

9 MR. AMRANE: And this is Karim

10 again.

11 Remember, there is the AHRI

12 website as well. And the AHRI website has the

13 label also for the equipment in particular,

14 you know.

15 MR. DORIA: This is Jordan.

16 I would say I am sort of in the

17 same position as Karen. What I would say is

18 that we, as manufacturers in AHRI, you know,

19 once the DOE collateral is finalized, I think

20 one of the things we talked about a few weeks

21 back was we should all reference the same

22 thing.
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1 And maybe, whatever we put, it

2 should all be the same thing. We should all

3 commit to doing it in whatever space our

4 contractors/dealers most frequently go to help

5 address this issue.

6 Because, fundamentally, I agree

7 with Harvey. It would be nice to have that

8 additional piece of information because I

9 wouldn't know that Texas was Southeast. They

10 certainly don't think that, right?

11 So, I think that would be

12 valuable, but we are in the same position; I

13 just can't commit to putting it on there.

14 MR. EISNER: Any other comments on

15 this?

16 Karen?

17 MS. MEYERS: And I don't even know

18 what the website addresses officially. It is

19 supposed to be either -- I actually have got

20 like four emails asking me to sign off on the

21 rating plate changes right now. So, I need an

22 answer to this question right now.
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1 MR. McCRUDDEN: This is Charlie.

2 You know, it is the same website

3 that is on the FTC label now. If it is

4 productinfo.energy.gov, it is the one that is

5 on the FTC label right now.

6 MR. ROCKY: And this is Bryan.

7 That's why I chose that. But,

8 again, if we have a different discussion, we

9 could have a different discussion, but in this

10 case, in parallel with what Karen said, my

11 engineering group is not adding the reference

12 to the website at this point because there has

13 been no decision on what that website should

14 be.

15 As Jordan said, we wanted to have

16 a consistent message in how we communicate to

17 our consumers and contractors and distribution

18 partners of where we want information to

19 reside.

20 MR. RAWALD: So, this is Doug.

21 I want to be very practical. You

22 guys have come to us with something that I
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1 think is very helpful. And we don't have a

2 website for you to put on there currently that

3 would be helpful. We have a website, but it

4 is not going to be the most helpful

5 information. And I can offer no guarantees

6 that, by January 1st, when you will be rolling

7 these things out, that it will be the most

8 helpful information. So, I don't want you

9 using a website that would be unhelpful.

10 So, that being the fact, it seems

11 to me that the most helpful thing is to have

12 "Install prohibited" in the two regions, as

13 noted. And just note that is something more

14 than what we would have had otherwise and

15 accept that solution at the moment. I think

16 that is kind of where I am.

17 I appreciate the fact that I would

18 love to have a lot more things on there, but

19 I understand what we are dealing with here. 

20 And I think this at least gets us somewhere

21 that we weren't before. And so, I am willing

22 to accept that fact.
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1 MR. HUNGERFORD: This is David

2 Hungerford. Can you guys hear me?

3 MR. EISNER: Yes.

4 MR. HUNGERFORD: Yes, I just

5 wanted to -- Harvey was saying what I was

6 thinking, that, to be honest, people in

7 California don't regard themselves as part of

8 the Southwest. It is a sort of a causal sort

9 of description of where you are. So, there is

10 some potential for confusion, at least in my

11 State.

12 And that is, I think, what we are

13 really talking about. I think people in New

14 Mexico and Arizona do regard themselves as

15 being part of the Southwest. And whether

16 Texas, whether people in Texas feels

17 themselves part of the South and part of the

18 Southeast is sort of irrelevant here.

19 So, I would prefer having -- and

20 one of the mockups I saw, and I was digging

21 through my materials looking to see if I

22 actually had one, and I don't think I do. 
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1 There was a website; the idea behind that was

2 someone looking at the label, not having

3 access to the hang tag, would be able to

4 figure that out. So, I would prefer something

5 like that to be available.

6 MR. LATTANZI: This is Matt

7 Lattanzi with NORDYNE.

8 I am going to echo the comments of

9 both Jordan and Karen. Making this mandatory

10 at this point in time would force me into a

11 position of not being able to support the

12 label and having to bring this back home,

13 because we are very space-constrained as well. 

14 And we are already moving forward under the

15 assumption that we are not having the website

16 at the bottom of the label.

17 MR. SACHS: I give up.

18 (Laughter.)

19 MR. EISNER: All right. Anybody

20 else have any comments?

21 MR. BALLO: This is Tim.

22 I have a question, just on how
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1 this will be effectuated. I am a little

2 troubled by the manufacturer voluntary label

3 title for this slide because I would want it

4 to be a requirement, that if someone doesn't

5 put the label on their product, that that is

6 a violation of something.

7 So, I guess this is a question for

8 Doug. Is this going to be a DOE or FTC rule?

9 Doug's chair is empty. How about

10 that?

11 (Laughter.)

12 MR. EISNER: Would anybody, would

13 any of the manufacturers have problems with a

14 simple requirement that manufacturers will

15 install a label --

16 MR. HURST: No, but I think --

17 Neil, this is John Hurst with Lennox -- I do

18 think it would be appropriate that the

19 manufacturers get some credit for voluntarily

20 submitting to a requirement.

21 (Laughter.)

22 MR. EISNER: Well --
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1 MR. HURST: But I don't want it to

2 construe that we can pick and choose whether

3 or not to put it on there or not. I agree

4 with that.

5 MR. EISNER: No, but even what you

6 said wasn't exactly clear to me. Voluntarily

7 agree with a requirement? Would you agree to

8 a requirement in the rule that was described

9 in the preamble as something that the

10 manufacturers volunteered to do?

11 MR. HURST: Yes.

12 MR. EISNER: Anybody object to

13 that?

14 (No response.)

15 Do you know what we're talking

16 about?

17 (Laughter.)

18 MR. RAWALD: So, the Department

19 doesn't have legal authority to require this

20 particular label. The FTC does. So, we would

21 be acting outside of our authority to require

22 it. That is why I particularly appreciate the
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1 fact that manufacturers are coming voluntarily

2 with this because I don't think that we can

3 require it.

4 Now the FTC in the past did make a

5 rule requesting nameplating; that they would

6 be interested in possibly doing that again if

7 we asked them to do that. But we couldn't

8 require it, and it wouldn't be done by January

9 1st of 2015.

10 So, in order for us to get there,

11 so we can have something that would really

12 work, it requires the manufacturers to come to

13 the table and volunteer, as they have, and for

14 us to be reasonable in what we expect for them

15 to do, given the fact they are volunteering.

16 And so, I am willing to accept the

17 75 percent solution because you guys are

18 giving it to us. And I am being very

19 practical. But I will listen to everyone else

20 here and see what they think, too.

21 MR. EISNER: Again, we could say

22 in the preamble, "The manufacturers have
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1 voluntarily agreed to install a label doing

2 the following. The Committee agreed to

3 request that the FTC make this a mandate." 

4 Period.

5 MR. DORIA: So, this is Jordan.

6 I guess I had, clearly now

7 wrongly, been operating under the assumption

8 that this would ultimately be a requirement on

9 us and that we volunteered it, right?

10 MR. EISNER: Yes.

11 MR. DORIA: I guess that was the

12 distinction I saw.

13 I have to say it gives me a little

14 bit of concern to think that it is just purely

15 voluntary. So, I, as a manufacturer, we are

16 putting this saying the install of this

17 product is prohibited. And then, a future

18 manufacturer decides they have a new

19 representative, and they say, "Well, no, I

20 don't think so." Now we are effectively

21 carrying what I would call to some extent a

22 black mark on our product saying you can't,
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1 and they just decided, no, our products can go

2 everywhere, just by looking at the product.

3 That concerns me. I don't have an

4 answer, but we need to talk about that more,

5 I think.

6 MS. MEYERS: So, I have a

7 question. Doesn't the FTC only govern like

8 the Energy Guide Label? Or do they govern all

9 things that go on the unit? Because I don't

10 want this on the Energy Guide Label; I want

11 this on the rating plate. So, that is my

12 question.

13 MR. BALLO: They have authority

14 for marking as well for some products. Like

15 lightbulbs, they do have marking requirements. 

16 But, for commercial products, DOE does the

17 marking requirements, but for residential it

18 is FTC.

19 MR. HURST: So, Doug, you might

20 not like this, but do we have to be specific

21 between voluntary and required? Can't we just

22 say, "Manufacturers agree to...."?
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1 MR. RAWALD: I think so.

2 MR. HURST: Okay. And then,

3 somebody reading it down the road won't have

4 the benefit of us going through this

5 wordsmithing debate, but they will read it and

6 say, "We agree to do it." 

7 MR. RAWALD: Right.

8 MR. EISNER: What I'm hearing is

9 "agree to" is wonderful, but they would also

10 like it to be added to a regulation. Would

11 you have any problem with the language saying,

12 "The Committee recommends that the FTC add

13 this as a requirement in their rule."? Would

14 that be enough for you, the concern you had? 

15 Or do you want to wait and see if FTC is going

16 to do it?

17 MR. HURST: Yes, I think I am

18 worried that that could open up a whole

19 different can of worms, and they wouldn't

20 understand. They wouldn't have the benefit of

21 the intent of this discussion.

22 MR. EISNER: The FTC would not?
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1 MR. HURST: Correct.

2 MR. EISNER: That is something I

3 think we could make sure they do understand,

4 whether it is Doug or inviting the

5 representative to come back to this meeting

6 and listen to us.

7 MR. AMRANE: As AHRI, I don't

8 think we are ready to request that the FTC do

9 rulemaking on this particular issue.

10 MR. DORIA: This is Jordan.

11 I would maybe just like a little

12 clarification on what exactly it is that the

13 Department believes it is prohibited from

14 doing and to think perhaps creatively about

15 ways we could maybe address that.

16 MR. RAWALD: Right. So, I will

17 have to talk more as a lawyer. As I

18 understand it, we don't view that we could

19 initiate a rulemaking requiring a label. So,

20 if the group decides they want to make it

21 we're going to do this, then we could, of

22 course, put out there in our rule that the
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1 group has agreed to do this.

2 MS. MEYERS: But can we make it --

3 this is Karen with Rheem -- as part of the

4 enforcement rule manufacturers will agree to

5 put this label on units that don't qualify? 

6 So, it is really part of the enforcement rule.

7 MR. RAWALD: That's correct.

8 MS. MEYERS: Can you we do that?

9 MR. RAWALD: Yes.

10 MS. MEYERS: So that it is kind of

11 mandatory even though it is not -- I just

12 don't want FTC to come in here and say, "Well,

13 I want the words to say" this, this, this, and

14 this.

15 MR. RAWALD: First of all, I have

16 talked to Hampton, and they are cool,

17 essentially, with whatever we decide here.

18 (Laughter.)

19 They think it's great. They think

20 it's great.

21 Now the constraint is, if Karen

22 called me and said, "I bought John's unit and
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1 it doesn't have the label on it and should,"

2 I don't have the statutory authority to charge

3 John $200 for failing to put a label on there. 

4 That is where the Department doesn't have the

5 authority.

6 I don't have the authority to

7 bring actions for failure to label products

8 properly that are residential. I can bring

9 actions against commercial products that

10 aren't labeled properly, but the statute

11 didn't give me that authority. So, I couldn't

12 charge you money for failing to do this. I

13 can require it all I want, but I can't have

14 that stick. That is the concern.

15 MR. DORIA: This is Jordan.

16 Just quickly for the other OEMs, I

17 mean, I think where we are is to put it

18 actually on the rating plate. Is that where

19 others are? I'm still entertaining a second

20 label.

21 MS. MEYERS: Mine will be a --

22 this is Karen -- mine is going to be a mixture
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1 for a short time, because it is going to take

2 a while to get everything done.

3 MR. DORIA: I guess my question

4 is --

5 MS. MEYERS: I will have a mixture

6 for a few months.

7 MR. DORIA: I guess the reason I

8 asked the question is, I was wondering, I

9 mean, are we getting hung on the word "label"? 

10 If we called it something else, if we treated

11 it a little bit differently -- I mean, I don't

12 know; I am just trying to think of a solution

13 that does not require FTC's action.

14 MR. EISNER: Could DOE treat this

15 as a recordkeeping requirement? "The

16 manufacturers have agreed to put a plate on

17 the device that indicates that at the time it

18 was manufactured it could not be installed in

19 the South."?

20 MR. FENSTROM: This is Gary.

21 We have David Hungerford on the

22 phone. But, as I understand it, the
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1 California Energy Commission requires marking

2 of products. That is not a label that

3 conflicts with what the FTC may or may not

4 require.

5 MR. ROCKY: This is Bryan.

6 So, the consensus of the

7 manufacturers that are represented here was

8 that we would do this. Unfortunately, this is

9 not the entirety of our industry. It is a

10 vast majority, but not an entirety.

11 So, if I am a smaller manufacturer

12 of the condensing unit, and there are a couple

13 of them out there, or I am an importer, and

14 there are a few of those, if this is not a

15 requirement from the Department or from the

16 FTC, it is likely not going to be 100 percent

17 adopted across the OEMs for this product

18 family.

19 And so, I am not sure how you get

20 there, Doug, but we need more than -- if this

21 is voluntary, I think you have assurances from

22 the manufacturers represented here that is
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1 going to cover 90-some percent of the volume

2 that we are going to do this, and you are

3 going to have some small percentage of

4 manufacturers who might say, "I have no idea

5 what's going on. It is not a requirement, is

6 it?"

7 So, the better we can make this a

8 requirement of the enforcement act, the better

9 compliance you are going to have from

10 everybody who builds condensing units.

11 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim with

12 AHRI.

13 And I think maybe it is something

14 we can bring back to AHRI. You know, the

15 majority, the vast majority of manufacturers

16 are certified through AHRI, and we can make it

17 a requirement within the AHRI program. It is

18 something that would be a violation of a

19 certification program if you don't have this

20 labeled. It is something we can try, we can

21 do within AHRI. And I think that would be

22 very effective.
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1 Now are we 100 percent? Do we

2 have 100 percent of all? No, but we have 99.

3 -- I don't know -- something.

4 MR. EISNER: So, we have had some

5 suggestions here. We can get 99 percent. Do

6 we need to get 100? Can we get 100 by

7 requiring it as a recordkeeping? Can we get

8 100 percent by some other --

9 MS. SHEPHERD: This is Amy

10 Shepherd from AHRI.

11 I think we need to be very careful

12 about trying to get so creative to solve that

13 1 percent that we create an avenue that in the

14 future can be used for all kinds of things

15 that we didn't intend.

16 I think there is a reason that the

17 statute is set up the way it is with the

18 labeling responsibility, FTC, for residential

19 and DOE here. And I think we want to be very

20 careful about trying to expand that just to

21 fit this one particular situation.

22 MR. DORIA: This is Jordan.
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1 The problem I see is also the way

2 we have constructed this label, right? What

3 we are basically saying is, if there is no

4 label, the product is good anywhere, right? 

5 So now, somebody simply doesn't do it. 

6 Magically, all their products are good

7 everywhere, right?

8 I am less concerned about the

9 importers and some of those; I am not as

10 concerned. And I think I like the suggestion

11 of something with the AHRI program.

12 This industry has seen sometimes

13 when there is something that could be called

14 a loophole, there is a race to the lowest

15 common denominator. I can remember that

16 faintly.

17 I like the idea of all of us

18 agreeing to do it. But the moment that

19 Goodman says, "Oh, we're not going to do it

20 anymore," that has a coercive effect on the

21 rest of us, not that you guys would do it or

22 anyone else, but --
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1 (Laughter.)

2 You know, anyone who does it, or

3 it could be us. I mean, maybe I suggest it. 

4 I don't know.

5 You know, that is the problem that

6 I see. So, I am not comfortable with it right

7 now.

8 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey.

9 And it pains me greatly, but I

10 can't think of a better, easier solution than

11 accepting AHRI's offer to require it on all

12 the products they certify. And it bothers me,

13 but I guess we can do it this time -- without

14 precedent, Amy.

15 (Laughter.)

16 MR. BALLO: I would still prefer

17 that we all trust Hampton to be a good guy and

18 do what everybody thinks is right.

19 But I think AHRI, having it as

20 part of their program, would be very helpful,

21 too.

22 MR. RAWALD: Right. So, the
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1 problem with waiting for an FTC rule is that

2 we are waiting for an FTC rule. So, it seems

3 to me that AHRI can move much more quickly

4 than the federal government, I would assume.

5 MS. MEYERS: There is already one

6 scheduled for October 22nd to get this

7 approved through the Certification Program. 

8 So, we are already ahead of you.

9 MR. EISNER: Okay, I am not quite

10 sure where we are on this quite. How about if

11 the preamble said, "The manufacturers have

12 agreed to voluntarily install the label that

13 will do" X. "AHRI has advised the Committee

14 that it will require of its members, who

15 represent 99 percent of the industry, that it

16 will require" X. "The group also recommends

17 to the FTC that it require under its

18 authority...."?

19 Is there anybody who would object

20 even with those three points being made in the

21 preamble?

22 MR. AMRANE: What are we going to
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1 require the FTC to do?

2 MR. EISNER: There would be three

3 things that DOE would say in the preamble. 

4 One is that the manufacturers have voluntarily

5 agreed to put the label on. Two, that AHRI

6 has agreed to require of its membership, which

7 represents currently 99 percent of the

8 industry, that it will require that of its

9 members. Three, the group will ask the FTC or

10 the Committee will recommend to the FTC that,

11 under its authority, it require the label as

12 soon as it can.

13 MR. DORIA: This is Jordan.

14 Just a slight nuance. I think it

15 would have to be certification program

16 participants, not membership, right?

17 MR. AMRANE: That's correct, yes.

18 MS. SHEPHERD: Well, I would

19 prefer that we not have that language in there

20 about 99 percent. I don't see the value. 

21 Let's just say AHRI will require its --

22 MR. AMRANE: Each participant in
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1 each program --

2 MS. SHEPHERD: Yes, right.

3 MR. AMRANE: -- of its members,

4 because we have participants who are not

5 members of AHRI.

6 I think, as AHRI, I will not be

7 comfortable with adding the FTC requirements

8 in there, in the recommendations.

9 MR. EISNER: Why is that?

10 MR. AMRANE: Well, because, again,

11 we are opening the door for another rulemaking

12 where things could change, where the wording

13 could change, which I don't think would be

14 helpful and useful in this particular case.

15 MR. EISNER: But there are some

16 companies who are uncomfortable with it not be

17 mandatory for 100 percent of the industry. 

18 So, do you have a suggestion for something

19 else we could say in the preamble that might

20 address their concern?

21 MS. MEYERS: I would suggest that

22 we take "voluntarily" out of the first sub-
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1 bullet. And then, I think we need to have a

2 lot of AHRI internal discussions about how we

3 want to move forward with this on the FTC.

4 MR. EISNER: All right. Well,

5 it's --

6 MS. MEYERS: And I would take it

7 off of the header of the slide as well.

8 MR. EISNER: Well, it's 10 after

9 12:00. Why don't we take an hour break? Is

10 that enough time for people to talk about

11 language that could satisfy all --

12 MR. RAWALD: I hate to be the one

13 to delay lunch because I really don't like

14 doing that, but it is useful if we can tee-up

15 on these last two slides those things that I

16 could bring back to the Department while we

17 are eating for them to think about

18 intelligently. That would help me immensely. 

19 So, can we do that?

20 MR. EISNER: I sense here there is

21 a need to talk.

22 MR. RAWALD: Right, but can we
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1 just go those last two slides and just get --

2 MR. EISNER: Okay.

3 MR. RAWALD: Because we only have

4 two slides left.

5 MR. EISNER: Okay.

6 MR. RAWALD: Yes.

7 MR. EISNER: Does anybody else

8 want to raise any other points or concerns

9 that Doug needs to bring back to his bosses?

10 MR. RAWALD: Right. So, on slide

11 31, there's definitely an issue, as I have

12 heard from Bryan and echoed by Amy, regarding

13 the second bullet, specifically the second

14 sub-bullet, the sub-bullet to the second

15 bullet.

16 So, I will bring back the notion

17 of either not having this at all or the Chuck

18 White compromise, which would be, if you sell

19 13 SEER product to a guy who has been found to

20 have been a routine violator during the time

21 of his appeal, then you could at least have

22 penalties for that, but not to the broader
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1 range of products. So, that is the two. That

2 is what I will bring back to those people I

3 work for.

4 MR. EISNER: Anything else on that

5 slide?

6 MR. DORIA: This is Jordan.

7 On the final bullet --

8 MR. EISNER: The final bullet on

9 slide 31?

10 MR. DORIA: I'm sorry, on slide

11 31, correct. We say they are mitigated by a

12 report to DOE within 15 days.

13 MR. EISNER: Uh-hum.

14 MR. DORIA: I guess I want to get

15 a fuller understanding of what "mitigated"

16 means.

17 And just a comment: 15 days of

18 receipt of knowledge. So, I definitely think

19 it needs to be done in a timely manner, right? 

20 So, we are talking three months and you get to

21 keep doing it.

22 But, at the same time, when I am
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1 thinking about how this information could come

2 into our possession, ultimately, what I

3 envision us doing is having a funneling

4 process where it is basically one person who

5 is responsible for this, probably an ethics or

6 compliance attorney, or something like that.

7 There could be some delay in

8 getting that information because won't know

9 who to talk to. They will talk to whomever

10 they know. It will find its way up, and we

11 will talk about it. The lawyers will decide,

12 "Yes, we actually think there is something we

13 should report here," you know.

14 So, 15 days, at least for me, I am

15 not sure that is quite enough time. I don't

16 know. My initial thought is 30 seems

17 reasonable. I don't know if others have a

18 view on that.

19 But those are my two thoughts on

20 this.

21 MR. RAWALD: Okay. So, the intent

22 of this is to encourage reporting and to say,
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1 if you don't report, then you are in trouble. 

2 And so, we want to encourage reporting by both

3 rewarding you by saying, "Oh, everything's

4 good," and so, the "mitigated" means,

5 essentially, that your sales to that person

6 won't count. There will be no penalty for

7 that. And it is a complete mitigation. There

8 will be no penalty paid for sales to the

9 person because you reported it.

10 So, 15 days was a lift for me, to

11 get 15 days in that. Some people might

12 possibly think, a manufacturer may think, "I

13 have 15 days. Let me sell them as much as

14 possible in the next 15 days," as they get

15 ready for next season.

16 I don't have an idea enough for

17 the business model to say that is even a

18 reality. But you understand what I have to

19 navigate. So, if you could tell me that 30

20 days makes sense and that we couldn't

21 liquidate stock to that person within 30 days,

22 such that they could, then, have enough,
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1 because I have gotten them plenty of money and

2 I have taken care of it. So now, I feel good. 

3 Even though they are a routine violator, I

4 have made my season sales to them. So, I am

5 okay. Then, I can bring that back to folks. 

6 That is the concern I think that caused the 15

7 days.

8 MR. ROCKY: Doug, this is Bryan.

9 So, I think the question there is

10 the 15 days, we talk about the distribution

11 chain for a manufacturer. To work through all

12 of the avenues of distribution to an end

13 contractor, 15 days is probably not enough

14 time.

15 Again, we have to sort who we sold

16 it to, who they sold it to, and go through the

17 chain.

18 MR. DORIA: Well, Bryan, this is

19 Jordan.

20 I mean, I guess I view it a little

21 different. I mean, the way I read this is

22 that we are coming into possession of
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1 knowledge that somebody may well be a routine

2 violator, not that we are investigating it;

3 that we have come into possession of a

4 reasonable degree of suspicion that causes us

5 concern.

6 I think, for me, it is this "of

7 receipt". I guess the question is, receipt by

8 whom, right? We are all big companies, right?

9 If it is receipt by, I will say,

10 the appropriate point of contact that we

11 designate and sort of indicate to the

12 Department that this is our point of contact

13 for these issues, whether it is you contacting

14 us for investigations, us reporting to you,

15 and any other sort of permutations, that seems

16 reasonable. I am just trying to figure out

17 how do we get from all the different people we

18 have in the field who are not going to know

19 that there is a hotline to call to share this

20 information.

21 MR. RAWALD: Right. If the guy

22 working on the Ingersoll Rand floor, you know,
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1 factory floor, hears about it, is that going

2 to be receipt of knowledge, a treatment of 15

3 days? Because it is not going to percolate up

4 to the appropriate person within 15 days. No,

5 I get that constraint.

6 And so, I am willing to tack in

7 some sort of requirement that it be to a

8 particular person. And you guys could

9 identify what entity that would be. So, that

10 is more palatable than increasing the timeline

11 to me. It would be, you know, once it reaches

12 this person, that is 15 days the clock is

13 going to tick from that.

14 So, I mean, frankly, I would have

15 a hard time tracing back to that individual

16 from my point of view, right? So, I am going

17 to know best when it came into your hands as

18 the corporate executive.

19 So, if there is some sort of term

20 or phrase that would be appropriate for you

21 guys that would be universal across the world

22 for the corporate executive -- that would be
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1 the appropriate person -- let's use it.

2 MR. EISNER: Anything else on

3 slide 31?

4 MS. SHEPHERD: I had a question on

5 "mitigate". So, Doug, the language says

6 "mitigate," but you said "wouldn't be held

7 liable".

8 MR. RAWALD: Right. So, because

9 we approach things from a point of view of

10 mitigation, what we envision here would be

11 that there would be no liability for that.

12 MS. SHEPHERD: Okay. Can we just

13 say that, though?

14 MR. RAWALD: No liability. I will

15 go back and ask the question.

16 MS. SHEPHERD: And then, the other

17 two questions, they don't seem to quite be

18 popping up out of these slides, but I think

19 they might be something that you need to think

20 about, is one thing we haven't really

21 discussed too much was the -- we have talked

22 about the responsible party for a routine
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1 violation will be kind of the corporate

2 entity. But what if it is a huge corporate

3 entity that has multiple branches? Is it

4 going to be, is it the Department's view that

5 all sales to that corporate entity, regardless

6 of wherever the violation or the routine

7 violation was happening, are going to be

8 prohibited? That is a question I think we

9 have.

10 And then, the last one is we had

11 talked about this a little bit in terms of the

12 appeal, in terms of narrowing the scope to the

13 13 units. Would the Department, if we decided

14 that was appropriate on the whole, is that

15 something that would be an option, in the

16 Department's view?

17 MR. RAWALD: Right. And so, I

18 think this goes back to the question of the

19 term "product".

20 MS. SHEPHERD: Yes.

21 MR. RAWALD: And I have asked

22 folks about it. As I told you I think
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1 yesterday, it was a lot of people who have

2 very different perspectives all came to the

3 exact same answer on this from the

4 Department's point of view. It was

5 surprising.

6 MS. SHEPHERD: So, my issue is

7 that in all of the current prohibited acts it

8 says "product," too. And that is not what is

9 going on. If you have a labeling issue on a

10 split-system unit, they don't fine you for

11 your heat pump.

12 MR. RAWALD: Uh-hum.

13 MS. SHEPHERD: So, it is extremely

14 troubling to me, the precedent that this sets,

15 because it seems a strong deviation from what

16 is in there now and how the word "product" is

17 treated in the current prohibited acts.

18 So, my concern is, is this a new

19 interpretation from the Department? Because

20 the word "product" is the same that is in the

21 other listed items there. So, if it means

22 that here, I am very concerned that it is the
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1 Department's view that it means it other

2 places, too.

3 MR. RAWALD: So, I will have to go

4 back and look at the particular prohibited

5 acts that you are talking about to be able to

6 respond to that cogently. My understanding is

7 the definition or the interpretation we are

8 offering is the one that is consistent with

9 and has something to do with consistent with

10 how we have dealt with this across the board,

11 though I understand in this context it doesn't

12 say consumer product or covered product, but

13 we view it to be synonymous here.

14 So, I will go back and talk to

15 folks again. The only other option I can

16 offer is, of course, the group can decide they

17 want to narrow this playing field down. And

18 I would, of course, if constrained, have to

19 vote against it. And then, we would go from

20 there with what the groundrules lay out the

21 DOE's response would be in such a situation.

22 But I will go back and ask the
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1 question, if we can narrow it, during this

2 period here that we are breaking.

3 So, there was a point you made

4 before that, though. What was the first point

5 you made?

6 MS. SHEPHERD: So, it was

7 mitigate, turn that --

8 MR. RAWALD: Corporations.

9 MS. SHEPHERD: Oh, so a

10 distributor that is a huge distributor is

11 found to have a branch somewhere that has

12 routinely violated. Does that mean that all

13 sales to all locations of that distributor are

14 going to be prohibited?

15 MR. RAWALD: That is an

16 interesting question. So, I haven't thought

17 of the corporate structure for distributors,

18 which may be more complex, I would say. So,

19 the corporate structure for a dealer and a

20 contractor is probably going to be pretty

21 simple. The company we will go after will be

22 the company that is the contractor.
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1 MR. WHITE: This is Chuck White.

2 The are some --

3 MR. RAWALD: Some that are larger.

4 MR. WHITE: -- contractors with

5 multiple locations --

6 MR. RAWALD: Uh-hum.

7 MR. WHITE: -- a home office, not

8 a lot, but they do exist.

9 MR. RAWALD: Yes.

10 MS. SHEPHERD: And the reason that

11 is important is, obviously, manufacturers have

12 to know exactly who they can't sell to.

13 MR. RAWALD: Right.

14 MS. SHEPHERD: And then, when we

15 are all talking about the scope and the impact

16 of some of these, you know, of this effective

17 enforcement program, we really have to

18 understand what that impact is.

19 And if it is any affiliated

20 organization or if it is that corporate entity

21 for a huge entity, it means you can't sell

22 them any product. We have got to know that is
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1 the Department's view that that is what that

2 means.

3 MR. RAWALD: Right. So, I will

4 bring that question back because we haven't

5 talked about it at all. So, okay.

6 MR. EISNER: Anything else on 31

7 for Doug?

8 (No response.)

9 Okay, 31, product --

10 MR. WHITE: Chuck White.

11 One thing. We say "manufacturer,"

12 but in our previous discussions that is any

13 manufacturer, correct. So, if you have a

14 routine violator that has been buying from

15 Jordan, he also can't buy from Karen; he can't

16 buy from -- so, is that clear in this

17 language, that once you have got this finding,

18 a manufacturer can be fined? Is that implied?

19 MR. RAWALD: Right. So, the

20 manufacturer prohibited act says it is

21 prohibited to sell to someone who is a routine

22 violator. So, that means that anyone who is
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1 known to be a routine violator, whether you

2 interacted with them before or not, you can't

3 sell to them. Or, if you do, you will get

4 $200 fine, the first thing you sell to them. 

5 So, that is clear.

6 MR. DORIA: This is Jordan.

7 Sort of to that point, I mean, how

8 would these bullets apply for distributors,

9 right? So, would the same be true, that if

10 there would appear where a contractor is

11 appealing, say, a finding of routine violator

12 status, does the same hold true for

13 distributors selling to them?

14 MR. RAWALD: Right. So,

15 distributors don't have the prohibited act

16 currently under the statute.

17 MR. DORIA: Yes.

18 MR. RAWALD: So, the question is,

19 so the distributor is found to be routinely

20 selling to routine violators. They can be,

21 then, in violation. And then, a company that

22 sells to the distributor would be, a
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1 manufacturer will be held liable. But

2 distributors themselves don't have any

3 independent financial liability under this.

4 MR. EISNER: Okay. Anything else

5 on 31?

6 Or anything that you want Doug to

7 bring up with his bosses on slide 32?

8 MR. AMRANE: I guess I do have a

9 question for Doug. So, you issue your Notice

10 of a Routine Violator when the distributor/the

11 contractor has exhausted his appeal process or

12 before?

13 MR. RAWALD: Right. So, we reach

14 it before, and they could appeal, and that

15 could obviate it. But we issue it before, and

16 that is the point. The notice contains his

17 appellate rights within it.

18 MR. AMRANE: Okay. Even if at the

19 end of the appeal he is cleared, manufacturers

20 won't be able to sell anything to --

21 MR. RAWALD: That is the question

22 that Amy and Bryan asked me to bring back.
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1 MR. AMRANE: Okay. Okay.

2 MS. MEYERS: And this is Karen

3 with Rheem.

4 I just want to state for the

5 record that, you know, the 15 days in the last

6 bullet, even once it gets up to the

7 appropriate person, that is not a lot of time,

8 especially if that person is gone out,

9 traveling, whatever, because there is a whole

10 internal process that has to be. I want it

11 stated that I am still a little concerned

12 about that 15 days.

13 MR. EISNER: Okay, slide 32. 

14 Nothing? Anything? Something?

15 MR. RAWALD: And this goes back to 

16 the question of, okay, we test something. 

17 That is rated SEER 14 and, actually, it is

18 13.6. What happens?

19 As we discussed, if the condensing

20 unit comes back, the condensing unit is going

21 to be non-compliant with the regional

22 standard. The manufacturer is going to have
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1 to go out there.

2 But if what, instead, happens is

3 an independent coil manufacturer or a

4 mismatched pair from different manufacturers,

5 and it is that coil that is causing it to test

6 below 14, then the coil is what is going to be

7 found to be non-compliant. And so, the person

8 who manufactures the coil is going to be the

9 one who has to bear the responsibility of

10 showing, hey, listen, it is not out there in

11 these pairs.

12 What I don't want is manufacturers

13 to be responsible for something a different

14 coil manufacturer has mis-rated, is what I am

15 trying to avoid for you guys. Does that make

16 sense? Okay.

17 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim with

18 AHRI.

19 So, you do it today?

20 MR. RAWALD: The same way we do it

21 today.

22 MR. AMRANE: Okay. The same you
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1 do it today, right?

2 MR. RAWALD: Yes, it is the exact

3 same process we do today. It is just applied

4 in the region. But I want to make clear that

5 is the exact same process we are doing today.

6 MR. EISNER: No problems for him

7 to bring back?

8 (No response.)

9 How much time do we need for lunch

10 for everybody to work out all their problems?

11 (Laughter.)

12 Do you want an hour and a half or

13 is an hour sufficient? All right. It is

14 12:25. Come back at 1:30.

15 (Whereupon, the meeting went off

16 the record for lunch at 12:26 p.m. and went

17 back on the record at 1:35 p.m.)

18 A-F-T-E-R-N-O-O-N 

19 S-E-S-S-I-O-N

20 1:35 p.m.

21 MR. EISNER: Okay, why don't go

22 back to the beginning of the slides, just to
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1 make sure there is agreement?

2 MR. RAWALD: So, you want to go

3 through the slides that we had voted on?

4 MR. EISNER: Just quickly, to make

5 sure there is agreement; we don't skip

6 anything.

7 The first one on which we had to

8 vote was slide No. 4.

9 MS. NOLL: Neil, can I ask a quick

10 question?

11 MR. EISNER: Sure.

12 MS. NOLL: My understanding was

13 these are the slides and the entirety of the

14 things that we have discussed and kind of the

15 consensus-ish, but there still seems to be

16 some stuff maybe missing.

17 MR. RAWALD: Right. So, when we

18 get through all the slides, if there is more

19 that people want to put on the table for a

20 plan, such as I know the advocates are still,

21 I think, interested in a prohibited act

22 probably discussion, then we can talk about it
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1 then. But let's get through kind of where we

2 are, so we can establish if these work. And

3 then, see, when we have all these things, what

4 do we think is still necessary?

5 MS. NOLL: Thank you.

6 MR. EISNER: Okay, the first one

7 was slide 4. I have that down as unanimous

8 with one abstention.

9 Slide No. 5, unanimous.

10 Slide No. 7 was unanimous.

11 Slide No. 9 was unanimous.

12 Eleven and 12 were unanimous.

13 When we got to

14 contractors/dealers, there were a lot of

15 questions, a lot of issues, needs to check. 

16 So, this is where we need to start to see what

17 we have worked out and can work out.

18 MR. RAWALD: Right. So, the main

19 issue here revolved around the term "indoor

20 unit," as I initially put up "an indoor coil,"

21 as we changed it to, and then, some terms

22 regarding that.
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1 So, if we could bring up the CCMS

2 web page?

3 I want you folks to understand

4 exactly what we are looking for from the

5 Department. So, when a manufacturer certifies

6 a system as compliant, they provide to us the

7 outdoor unit's model number, the model number

8 of what is said to be here the indoor unit,

9 and then, if applicable, the model number of

10 the ducted air mover.

11 So, for systems that are

12 installed, we want those three data points. 

13 Now I don't know what the term is that makes

14 the most sense to folks, so everyone is clear

15 on what that means. But that is the thing

16 that we were asking for when I put that

17 information before you.

18 So, I am less concerned about the

19 ducted air mover, frankly, but the indoor unit

20 we do want to have -- well, in a system

21 installation we want to have all three. When

22 we install a new system, we want to have all
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1 three pieces if all three pieces are being

2 used in the new system.

3 This is especially significant, I

4 would think, for a system that is rated blower

5 coil because the system was rated based upon

6 it being packaged with the blower. And so,

7 that has to be part of the system in order for

8 it to achieve the rate that has been

9 certified.

10 Does everyone follow what I am

11 saying here? Does that make sense?

12 So, I want to figure out the best

13 way to get that across to people as far as

14 that is what we are asking for records-wise.

15 We will ask, Karen, you had a

16 point?

17 MS. MEYERS: So, this increases

18 the record retention requirement

19 significantly. And so, I see where you are

20 coming, but on this I just guess that I don't

21 understand why we are including all of that

22 extra information that contractors have to
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1 keep, contractors in the Southeast and

2 Southwest have to keep, when we have said in

3 the 14 SEER definition that the least4 efficient condensing unit is going to be based

5 upon a coil-only rating.

6 So, when I look at those together,

7 I am trying to understand why we have this

8 record retention on the gas furnace, which is

9 primarily what the blower unit is, or a

10 condensing unit. So, that is where I am

11 having this.

12 So now, we have got this records

13 retention requirement on gas furnaces because

14 that is your blower unit with split-systems in

15 90-plus percent of the installations.

16 MR. RAWALD: Uh-hum. So, the

17 concern is that the system is rated to perform

18 together. That is the basis for the rating,

19 and it is certified to the Department that it

20 is compliant.

21 So, it would defeat the endeavor

22 of having manufacturers certify as compliant
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1 a system if, when installing a system, the

2 contractor didn't have to install all those

3 pieces together.

4 Does that make sense? I mean, if

5 the manufacturer went to all the effort of

6 testing the system as a unit, and then said,

7 "This is what is compliant," and then, the

8 contractor went out and installed a different

9 indoor unit and blower with the condensing

10 unit the manufacturer put together, it

11 wouldn't achieve the efficiencies the

12 manufacturer has certified would be achieved

13 by the system.

14 And so, that is what we are trying

15 to make sure happens. We are trying to ensure

16 that what the manufacturer spent a lot of time

17 and money, frankly, making sure will happen

18 does happen out in the field.

19 MS. MEYERS: So, this is Karen

20 again.

21 But this is a records retention

22 requirement. So, the responsibility for the
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1 rating falls upon the OEM, and we have

2 everything we have to do to that rating. But

3 I don't really know how to explain this, but

4 I just think, when you look at all those model

5 numbers that are up there and all those

6 possible combinations, and if you look at how

7 many of those combinations apply to the

8 products that we are talking about, and it is

9 going to be probably 80 percent, 70 percent,

10 and then, you look up how many of those are

11 going to occur in the Southeast or Southwest,

12 the records that you are talking about having

13 to maintain in case there is a violation is

14 multimillions.

15 And it seems excessive for this. 

16 I will leave it up to the contractors and

17 stuff. I mean, I feel like I am advocating

18 for them. I just am questioning, is this a

19 reasonable request, because it just seems kind

20 of extreme to me with all the stuff.

21 MR. RAWALD: Right. Just so I can

22 respond, all we are asking for is on the
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1 receipt that you give the customer you put the

2 manufacturer and model number of the indoor

3 and the outdoor unit, or the indoor and the

4 blower if you install all three together as a

5 system.

6 Otherwise, I don't see how it is

7 much more than what we talked about yesterday,

8 but I will be glad to hear Chuck's thoughts,

9 because he is looking at me.

10 MR. WHITE: This is Chuck White.

11 I look at it as a job-by-job

12 approach. So, when I took the job, I needed

13 to go look and make sure the pieces line up. 

14 The current practice, I am going to go to one

15 of Jon or Steve Porter's, over there, pals and

16 say, "I have this job. I need the equipment. 

17 Please make it line up." And that will

18 happen.

19 So, then, I am going to have a

20 record for that job, that residence at

21 whatever address, in my system and in most of

22 the contractors' out there systems, they are
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1 going to have a record for that job. And it

2 is going to list the unit, the coil, the line

3 set, the sheet metal screws, lots of stuff.

4 There are probably some

5 contractors that do things on a unit-type

6 basis. We do a 3-ton unit for X and a 4-ton

7 for X. Will they have the sophistication? 

8 That is probably a bad way to put it. They

9 may not take the trouble to keep a lot of

10 detail if they are doing a lot of volume, if

11 they have got a lot of units sitting in the

12 warehouse, but I think a lot of contractors

13 track at least serial number of the condensing

14 unit. Probably not necessarily the serial

15 number, and you're not asking for that, but

16 not necessarily the serial of the evaporator,

17 but probably you are going to have the model

18 number.

19 So, later, in your records if you

20 need something and you have to go back, you

21 have that at your fingertips. Probably not a

22 100 percent of the contractors out there are
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1 doing it that way because they don't have to

2 now, but I think they are going to have

3 receipts of what they bought.

4 It may be a chore for some people

5 to match those receipts to particular jobs if

6 they didn't do it at the time, but, I mean,

7 there are ways to kind of figure that out. 

8 And it will take some time, but you are giving

9 us some time to do that.

10 I don't think I have to keep track

11 of 1,000 different evaporator coils. I only

12 have to keep track of the condensing unit and

13 evaporator coil I used on this job.

14 MR. FENSTROM: This is Gary.

15 I agree with Karen; it is a

16 massive record retention obligation problem. 

17 We could do away with all of that if we simply

18 had a postcard tracking system where we mailed

19 in to DOE where it went each time it changed

20 hands. That would be so much simpler and

21 cheaper and easier.

22 MR. LATTANZI: This is Matt
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1 Lattanzi with NORDYNE.

2 While I don't really agree with

3 Gary's cost estimates there and simplicity or

4 easier, either, I would like to point out,

5 again, it is a record retention policy. And

6 all of our efforts relative to enforcement

7 have been focused on the outdoor equipment. 

8 I mean, it is the FTC Energy Guide Label. It

9 is the additional label that manufacturers are

10 going to add; that, in combination with the

11 least-efficient being a coil-only rating for

12 14 SEER, it seems to me that I don't

13 understand how having this information on the

14 indoor unit adds any value to the enforcement.

15 But it would be welcome if

16 somebody wants to correct me, if I am wrong. 

17 I think it is just adding, in my opinion, it

18 is adding an extra burden in terms of document

19 retention.

20 Thank you.

21 MR. WHITE: So, this is Chuck

22 White.
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1 I would like to just kind of jump

2 in. I think about things, I have been forced

3 to think about things from this perspective

4 for a few weeks now. But I have some other

5 perspectives as a business owner.

6 And one of them is liability. 

7 Someone says, "You put something in that was

8 not compliant." Under today's rules, I could

9 certainly buy a SEER 13 condensing unit, put

10 it with the wrong evaporator coil in a brand11 new installation, and install a system that is

12 not SEER 13. I could do that very easily.

13 So, a homeowner, particularly one

14 that might have a law degree, might look at

15 those pieces of information and say, "You've

16 defrauded me. You've cheated me. You've done

17 me wrong," and pursue a different legal course

18 against me.

19 So, I have some other motivation

20 to document things and keep track of numbers,

21 because I can't guarantee, if you make that

22 accusation against me, I can't guarantee I can
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1 go back into that property and validate that. 

2 And I can't guarantee somebody didn't come

3 along later and put a different part in and

4 change the situation.

5 So, I mean, I have some motivation

6 otherwise to keep some records. And again, me

7 personally, and I think for the vast majority

8 of my members and probably Charlie's members

9 as well, he is asking me to keep what I

10 already have. Now maybe he is asking me to

11 keep it for a longer time period than I

12 normally would. That I can't really speak to

13 for the thousands of contractors that are out

14 there.

15 But who my customer was and the

16 major parts I put in, and if I don't tell you

17 what the evaporator is, you can't know that I

18 put the right SEER in a new installation. If

19 we are talking a repair, I am changing an

20 outside unit, that is a different story. But,

21 if you want to know that I put in SEER22 compliant system, if I give you a quote that
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1 says I will put in a SEER 13 system, I can't

2 just put in a SEER 13 condensing unit because

3 I didn't do it.

4 And I am very careful, and have

5 been very careful, when I write quotes to

6 people. If I am changing a condensing unit,

7 I don't tell them I am going to give them a

8 SEER 13 system because I don't know that

9 unless I include I am going to change the coil

10 and now I have a matched system.

11 So, it is some more recordkeeping

12 for some people that aren't doing it now, but

13 most contractors have details on the specific

14 jobs. Now, if I get a 1,000-unit apartment

15 complex, I may be a little more challenged to

16 know exactly everything because I have got a

17 lot of units in one place. They come in a big

18 truck, and that may not be as detailed.

19 But, for the typical service

20 contractor, installation contractor, doing

21 kind of routine house subdivision work,

22 upgrades, that kind of stuff, I think this is
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1 all really relatively routine information you

2 are asking me to hang onto.

3 MR. RAWALD: So, I guess one thing

4 I want to be clear on from the manufacturers

5 is, when we go to this CCMS website, the model

6 number listed under indoor unit, is that the

7 indoor coil? Is that the box that has the

8 coil, the TXV, and something else in it? What

9 is that model number?

10 And Dave is raising his hand. So,

11 I think he has an idea.

12 MR. WINNINGHAM: And other

13 manufacturers can chime-in here. It could be

14 two scenarios. It could be the indoor

15 evaporator coil or it could be a blower coil

16 that shows up in that column.

17 I'm not sure that everyone is

18 listing everything exactly the same under

19 those scenarios. But I believe that the

20 indoor model number in most all cases is

21 either the evaporator coil or the blower coil,

22 and what you see of the ducted air mover is a
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1 furnace.

2 MR. RAWALD: So, just to be clear,

3 the model number is always the coil, whether

4 it is blower coil or -- it is always going to

5 be a coil. So, calling it "the indoor coil"

6 for purposes of the record retention, that

7 would be clear that is what we are asking for

8 because that would be the number that would be

9 here in this column, as opposed to, if there

10 was a different model number for a finished

11 product that has a case with a coil, with the

12 TXV, is that a different number?

13 I just want to make sure that we

14 are getting at -- I want it to be the thing

15 that you guys are reporting. I want to make

16 sure we are only requiring what you guys are

17 reporting.

18 MR. ROCKY: Yes, Doug, this is

19 Bryan.

20 So, the other opportunity that

21 Dave said is, if you have a modular blower and

22 an evap coil, that would be listed together as
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1 the indoor unit. I think pretty much

2 everybody is consistent with the model number

3 of a ducted air mover is a furnace, usually

4 with an ECM, because, again, in the example

5 that is up on the screen those are all 16-

6 SEER-type things. So, that is an ECM furnace

7 to get a higher efficiency rating.

8 But I believe that, under the AHRI

9 program in the definitions, again, I would

10 agree that indoor unit is an evap coil by

11 itself, an evap coil with a modular blower, or

12 it is an air handler, which is the evap coil

13 inside combined in one box with the blower.

14 MR. RAWALD: And I just want to be

15 clear. So, if the furnace is preexisting, and

16 they are simply installing the condensing unit

17 and the indoor unit, we are not asking you to

18 retain a number that you didn't install.

19 But, if you are installing a

20 system that has been certified as a system, we

21 want you to retain the numbers from the three

22 points of the system as it would have been
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1 certified by the manufacturer. Because the

2 point is to make sure that the system as

3 installed is compliant.

4 Now I know that Matt has pointed

5 me a couple of times to the fact that we are

6 really concerned about condensing units, and

7 I think that is mostly true. But, if the

8 installer -- and I don't think this is always

9 wittingly -- but because of their actions

10 undermines the system rating, that defeats the

11 intent. I mean, the point is manufacturers

12 have certified, at great expense, compliant

13 systems. And if an installer decides to use

14 the Rheem outdoor unit with an independent

15 coil, and then, a different blower, and they

16 don't work together to actually achieve the

17 level that Rheem thought it would if they had

18 certified the system, that undermines

19 everything that Rheem is doing.

20 And I don't want that. I want the

21 outcome to be, hey, we're all in this

22 together, and we are trying to make sure the
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1 system itself performs at 14, if it is

2 required to. And so, the installer has to

3 install a certified combination that meets the

4 minimum. And the only way that I can know

5 that is by having the installer keep records

6 of all three pieces of information if they are

7 installing all three together as a system. 

8 That seems to make sense to me.

9 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim with

10 AHRI.

11 And I agree in principle with you,

12 Doug, but what are you doing today? Because

13 the scenario you are talking about can be

14 applied today, right? I mean, somebody

15 installing a condensing unit with the wrong

16 coil. But you are not doing it today, right?

17 MR. RAWALD: Right, because we

18 don't do anything about installations. So,

19 for all we know, there could be many

20 mismatched systems out there that we are just

21 living with, and it is too bad because of all

22 the money that is being spent to create these
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1 systems that would work in the first place.

2 But now we have an installation

3 burden, and we have something here that is

4 different. And so, we are trying to make sure

5 we attack this the appropriate way, given what

6 we have.

7 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey.

8 From my perspective as an advocate

9 who tries to think about the entire system,

10 Doug, I am very sympathetic with what you

11 want, but the logical extension of that would

12 be to say, "I really need to look for a

13 successful installation at the refrigerant

14 charge, how close is it to what it ought to

15 be, and the airflow across that coil at the

16 rated conditions. And I would really like to

17 know about the duct leakage, and if it is in

18 the attic, I want to know about the duct

19 installation."

20 And just extrapolating from the

21 work of people like John Proctor, I think most

22 of us are beaten down to accept the fact that
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1 the typical installation today has a SEER

2 shortfall as installed, not under the test

3 conditions under which it is rated. It is

4 probably in the range of 20 percent and often

5 much more.

6 This is, in part, some testing

7 conditions that don't match very well the

8 installation, particularly something called

9 external static pressure.

10 But, as much as I would like to

11 assure that we are getting good installations,

12 and certainly the contractors have worked

13 enormously on that and I have tried to help,

14 it is a pretty heavy lift.

15 And I would like to know, and this

16 is my "ask," how you visualize using this

17 information in an actionable way if you get

18 exactly what you want in terms of the model

19 numbers and serial number.

20 MR. RAWALD: Right. And I want to

21 be clear. The only people that are not saying

22 it is heavy are the ones that the burden is
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1 seemingly on.

2 MR. SACHS: Yes.

3 MR. RAWALD: So, I really don't

4 understand why you guys are fighting so hard,

5 when they're not. But, hey, Harvey, I'll

6 answer your question because I think it is a

7 germane one.

8 MR. SACHS: Okay.

9 MR. RAWALD: Which is I have a

10 requirement to make sure the system that is

11 reported to me as being non-compliant actually

12 is non-compliant before I do anything. So, if

13 I go into a home and I say, "Oh, well, the

14 condensing unit is, indeed, certified over 14. 

15 So, that passes the test. But they mixed it

16 with parts that actually don't make it 14,"

17 that is a non-compliant installation.

18 The manufacturer has certified

19 what the combinations are going to be to

20 achieve 14. And the purpose of that is to say

21 these are the things you should install with

22 my product.
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1 MR. SACHS: Okay. Now, following

2 that up, have you found what you would regard

3 as a violation in that scenario? And would

4 anyone other than the contractor have any

5 action for which he is liable as a result of

6 that mismatch?

7 MR. RAWALD: Right. So, we would

8 deem this to be a violation. That takes me

9 back to that "later on" slide, which is the

10 one that is talking about what would be things

11 that are installed in violation.

12 So, it would be a violation to

13 install combinations that aren't certified. 

14 So, they have got to install a combination

15 that is certified as the combination to DOE.

16 MS. MEYERS: Here is a very real

17 likelihood of what could happen: they could

18 put in a Rheem condensing unit and coil, a

19 certified combination, and they could put in

20 a York gas furnace. That is not a certified

21 combination. The coil and the condensing unit

22 are going to get the rating. But, because you
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1 are requiring every installation to have an

2 absolute certified rating, that is what you

3 are requiring, but, you know, it could all be

4 done at the same time. They would all have

5 records. But now you are trying to use this

6 records retention to regulate installed

7 efficiency.

8 You know, that is why I don't see

9 the purpose of the least rating it can get is

10 just with the coil.

11 MR. RAWALD: Chuck, just real

12 quick, if I could jump in? So, if the coil

13 and the outdoor and indoor unit are certified

14 as a pair, and then, it is added to another

15 York blower, I don't care as long as that pair

16 exists.

17 The scenario I am concerned about

18 is you have a certified combination that

19 requires all three pieces, and you decide to

20 switch out one of those three pieces. That no

21 longer is a certified combination.

22 So, if the Rheem outdoor unit's
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1 performance is certified only based upon its

2 performance with a particular indoor unit and

3 a particular blower, and then, the contractor

4 decides to use a different blower, that is not

5 a certified combination.

6 But, if the indoor and outdoor

7 unit exist as a certified combination,

8 regardless of the fact that the blower is

9 there or not, that is fine. That would pass

10 muster.

11 MR. LATTANZI: This is Matt.

12 Yes, I guess I get it now, Doug. 

13 I see where you are going here. My thought

14 was, you know, even if you had a 13 SEER

15 condensing unit, you installed it with a

16 blower/coil combination that made 14 SEER in

17 the South, that is still, even though it made

18 14, that is not a legal install.

19 So, my thought process was, if you

20 control the outdoor units, you would have

21 everything. But I get what you are saying. 

22 You could install a 14 SEER outdoor unit with,
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1 for example, an oversized or an undersized

2 coil that wasn't a matched pair. So, I guess

3 that does make sense to me, and I am not

4 hearing any objections from Chuck or from

5 Charlie. So, you know, I am going to quit

6 pushing back on this record retention policy.

7 MS. MEYERS: It just sounds like

8 we are in conflict because they could put in

9 a 13 SEER. You know, if you did not read this

10 whole thing, and you say, "I have put in a

11 certified combination," but the whole

12 conversation we have been having these last

13 nine days is that it has to be based upon the

14 least-efficient rating of the outdoor unit,

15 which is based upon a coil-only rating.

16 But now, we are saying I want to

17 make sure that the whole system gets that

18 rating. So, it makes me question why we are

19 doing all this other stuff.

20 But it is almost like a

21 miscommunication. But, again, I am just -- if

22 the contractors are willing to do it -- I just
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1 think it is going to bring a lot of questions. 

2 And then, how is that going to work for your

3 enforcement? Because, if you tried to bring

4 a violation against me as a contractor, it is

5 like, listen, this is a certified combination. 

6 It gets 14. I put in all three pieces. It

7 gets 14. You said I had to keep records that

8 showed every installation was compliant. I

9 have that.

10 So, that is where I think it is

11 going to be very hard for the Department to

12 argue against that, but I just think we are

13 getting mixed messages here.

14 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey.

15 And I have sort of blithely been

16 assuming that this least-efficient combination

17 implicitly was rated with a PSC motor, and

18 that is not the case.

19 MR. LATTANZI: That is not the

20 case. There is no -- it is just a coil and an

21 outdoor unit.

22 MR. SACHS: With standard airflow?
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1 MR. LATTANZI: Right, right. 

2 Standard airflow. The motor doesn't come into

3 effect.

4 MR. SACHS: I'm sorry, I am paying

5 the price for not having participated in the

6 210/240 revision.

7 (Laughter.)

8 You all wouldn't give me what I

9 wanted.

10 (Laughter.)

11 MR. WHITE: This is Chuck White.

12 Let me just clarify in my own mind

13 or share my train of thought. January 1,

14 there is going to be listings for equipment

15 that only go SEER 14 and higher. They do not

16 go below 14.

17 And as long as I pick something

18 that is that with a matched combination, I can

19 put it in in Florida. And I think as long as

20 DOE has lists that they will approve of, the

21 AHRI list, the DOE, the Charlie McCrudden

22 list, if you like it, however those lists are
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1 -- and we know what they are, and we can

2 reference them, and we have agreed that unit

3 cannot be listed with any combinations below

4 14 -- if I go find my unit on that list and

5 match it up, I'm in the clear.

6 And we originally talked about

7 that the blower was not going to be in that

8 factor. I remember early on some discussions

9 about ECMs can help you gain some ground in

10 your SEERs, but that is not recognized.

11 So, it sounds a little like, if we

12 are willing to include that duct mover -- but,

13 to me, the duct mover was, if I am buying

14 typically the electric furnace today that

15 hangs in a lot of apartment units, where it is

16 assembled with the blower and the coil, comes

17 as a package, it is all made together, that

18 that was kind of what we were talking about.

19 I didn't think we were talking

20 about we are going to put in a gas furnace

21 with an ECM drive, and we are going to gain a

22 couple of points. Because the base
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1 combination isn't above 14, that isn't going

2 to help me.

3 So, again, as long as I know there

4 are recognized lists that I can work from, and

5 I buy the right products and I keep track of

6 them in my normal fashion, maybe I am too dumb

7 to know this is a big issue. But, just from

8 the way businesses operate on the installation

9 end of things, I don't see that it is going to

10 be a large burden outside of what we already

11 do.

12 Now you come knocking on my door

13 and say, "Give me your last three years'

14 records," that is a different story. That is

15 more work, but that is not what we are talking

16 about in terms of burden.

17 So, I don't think Charlie and I

18 have any particular disagreement here.

19 MR. McCRUDDEN: I mean, this is

20 Charlie.

21 The recordkeeping requirement is a

22 pain, but it helps you get to where you need
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1 to be, and I think it is something that

2 doesn't take us to the point where it is a big

3 problem.

4 MR. EISNER: Any more comments?

5 MS. MEYERS: So, I guess I would

6 be okay if you said "complete indoor unit,

7 excluding gas and oil furnaces," and whatever

8 else. I don't have a problem with the blower

9 unit and the evaporator unit because that is

10 what we have been talking about, a blower unit

11 coil or an evap coil, because that is what we

12 are saying is what 14 SEER is based upon,

13 correct? That is what the rating is based

14 upon.

15 But the system including the gas

16 furnaces and having this record retention, I

17 mean, it sounds like if somebody puts in a gas

18 furnace with a certified combination, but that

19 gas furnace is not anywhere on the CCMS

20 database --

21 MR. RAWALD: So, I don't want to

22 go that far, Karen, because that is not what
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1 I mean to imply. There are some systems where

2 the indoor and outdoor combination only exist

3 with that third number listed, right, only

4 with all three together? And if it is only

5 all three together, then you have got to put

6 in all three. But if you have the two

7 together, I don't care what you do for the

8 blower, right? I care about what you do with

9 the two together. As long as you have the

10 indoor and the outdoor unit required to

11 achieve the efficiencies that you will

12 achieve, that --

13 MR. LATTANZI: Something just

14 occurred to me, if I may?

15 MR. RAWALD: Yes.

16 MR. LATTANZI: If you have all

17 three --

18 MR. RAWALD: Uh-hum.

19 MR. LATTANZI: -- it is always

20 going to be above the federal minimum

21 because --

22 MR. RAWALD: That seems like it
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1 for me.

2 MR. LATTANZI: -- the

3 manufacturers don't, I think we -- jump in

4 here if I've got it wrong, guys. Would you

5 rate, would you put a rating in the directory

6 today with an air conditioner, a coil, and a

7 furnace at 13 SEER? You wouldn't do that. It

8 would always be a coil-only rating. And for

9 heat pumps, it is 14 SEER based on manufacture

10 date. So, that doesn't matter.

11 So, I kind of agree with where

12 Karen is going here. Really, you just need

13 the outdoor unit and the coil or air handler

14 or --

15 MR. RAWALD: And that's fine to

16 me.

17 MR. LATTANZI: You could say, if

18 you limited it to that -- we're arguing to

19 reduce burden for these guys in distribution,

20 and I'm going to step back from that.

21 MR. RAWALD: I just want to make

22 sure we use the right words. That is
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1 acceptable to me, what you guys are

2 describing. I just want to make sure we use

3 the appropriate words, so that it captures the

4 same information. So, I can compare what I

5 get when I ask Chuck for records to what the

6 manufacturer has certified as being the

7 combination that works for them.

8 So, if the word is simply "indoor

9 unit," that's great. If the word is "indoor

10 coil," that's great. I just want to know what

11 the words are that get me there, so we can

12 make sure that we are on the same page.

13 MR. LATTANZI: I am going to

14 suggest -- suggest -- "indoor coil or air

15 handler," or maybe "blower coil". Is that the

16 right word? I think if you said "indoor coil

17 or air handler" --

18 MR. RAWALD: Okay.

19 MR. EISNER: Is that okay with

20 everybody?

21 MR. RAWALD: Okay. So, with all

22 that being said, is there anything else on
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1 this slide or can we agree that this works?

2 MS. SHEPHERD: One minor thing. 

3 It would be for all such units, just to

4 clarify that you are talking about the first

5 two bullets, right? Or I'm sorry, the first

6 three? The first two? The second two?

7 All I'm saying, is this for all

8 units right now? And just for clarity, it

9 would be we are talking about the second

10 bullet and the third bullet, right?

11 MR. RAWALD: Right.

12 MS. SHEPHERD: Yes, that's all --

13 MR. RAWALD: Right, because the

14 first one is the scope. That's right.

15 MR. EISNER: So, the words are all

16 up there we want? Anybody object to this

17 language? Tim's happy?

18 MR. BALLO: With the understanding

19 of, I mean, I think we all understand what we

20 mean by "indoor coil/air handler".

21 THE COURT REPORTER: I'm sorry, is

22 your microphone on?
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1 MR. BALLO: I think we all

2 understand what we mean by "indoor coil/air

3 handler". So, yes.

4 MR. EISNER: Okay. So, with these

5 changes, slide No. 14, does anyone object to

6 this being unanimous agreement?

7 (No response.)

8 Hearing none, we put it down as

9 unanimous.

10 We can go on to the next ones. 

11 And the next slide I have is slide 15, and we

12 have similar problems, as I recall, in 15 and

13 16. There are a number of issues here. So,

14 let's start with 15.

15 MR. MELCHI: This is Jon with

16 HARDI.

17 I understand why we need to track

18 the indoor coil and air handler installation,

19 for the reasons stated by --

20 MR. RAWALD: Why would you have to

21 do it for the distributor?

22 MR. MELCHI: Yes.
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1 MR. RAWALD: Right. And so, I

2 have been emailing back and forth. You may

3 have noticed I am pretty close to us saying we

4 don't.

5 MR. MELCHI: Okay.

6 MR. RAWALD: So, just be patient.

7 MR. MELCHI: Yes, thank you. That

8 was the question --

9 MR. RAWALD: I think we are going

10 to get there, Jon.

11 MR. MELCHI: Okay.

12 MR. RAWALD: I think we are going

13 to get there, but I need to -- well, I am

14 trying to navigate things.

15 MR. MELCHI: I appreciate that.

16 MR. RAWALD: I am asking the whole

17 generation-wide endeavor, but I am doing my

18 best.

19 But I have other things that you

20 and I have discussed that we should focus on

21 here.

22 MR. MELCHI: Yes.
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1 MR. RAWALD: So, Jon emailed me

2 last night with a request about language to

3 narrow the scope. I circulated it among the

4 Department. And the response I got was no.

5 And the concern is we have been

6 built up for quite a while now with believing

7 that distributors don't know where things are

8 going. And so, I think that people are

9 reluctant to -- if the distributors don't know

10 where it is going, they don't want to limit

11 the distributor's scope of responsibility

12 based upon where they do business. That is

13 the rub I'm having.

14 So, at the moment, I have been

15 told that we cannot limit the scope. Now, if

16 the group wants to come through a consensus

17 for limiting the scope, the Department can

18 vote against it. And then, we can go from

19 there, and I could go back and readdress the

20 issue before we ever get to Notice and

21 Comment.

22 MR. MELCHI: And just to let you
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1 know at least where HARDI's head was at is the

2 request was that a distributor -- the records

3 retention would apply to a distributor who

4 sells product, meaning the broad class of

5 product covered in this -- not just central

6 air and not just single package -- heat pumps,

7 anything, to an entity with knowledge that

8 that entity installs product in the South or

9 Southwest Region.

10 And that means an installation of

11 a broad range of product, knowing that we were

12 -- what I was trying to do is make it a little

13 more broad to the Department. You know, we

14 discussed multiple times, you know, the guy in

15 Maine wondering why they have got to change

16 business practices for this.

17 I certainly understand that for my

18 distributors along the border and actually

19 north of the border who have contractors who

20 occasionally go down. I was just trying to

21 limit the scope, because if you limit the

22 scope, it makes the implementation of the
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1 entire request a little easier to do than

2 broadly across all 50 states.

3 MR. RAWALD: No, and I get that. 

4 And I want to assure you that I was an

5 advocate for that because I think that there

6 is some benefit to be had.

7 I'm not getting a lot of reception

8 from the Department for that. I will re9 engage if you want at one more break on the

10 issue. So, we could table it and bring it

11 back. But that is kind of where we were.

12 I did just receive agreement to

13 eliminate the indoor coil portion from the

14 distributors. So, that is good news, I think,

15 for you guys.

16 So, we also discussed yesterday

17 the possibility of phasing in over time, at

18 least, if nothing else, the over-the-counter

19 sales record retention. And you were going to

20 think about an appropriate timeline for that. 

21 Have you conferred with anybody and come to a

22 number?
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1 MR. MELCHI: This is Jon with

2 HARDI.

3 Yes, we conferred last night with

4 our Board, and, you know, I think probably I

5 kept coming to two different, I got two

6 different responses. Some thought that it

7 would be most appropriate to kind of coincide

8 it with the 18-month grace period, that that

9 would probably be a pretty good point to use. 

10 Others thought the calendar year would be

11 better.

12 But I understand that you don't

13 necessarily want to leave a gap. But I think

14 the quickest that we could probably get this

15 implemented across the board, the grace

16 period, because we would probably take every

17 week of that 18 months getting folks set up.

18 MR. RAWALD: Right. So, the

19 options would be July 1st, 2016 or January

20 1st, 2017, right. Okay. So, I think that we

21 could do July 1st, 2016. I will ask the

22 question and come back after our next break
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1 with an answer for that.

2 MR. MELCHI: Great. Thank you.

3 And there was a difference. The

4 folks who thought it would be longer were

5 those who, for the purposes of tracking serial

6 numbers with those, would need to make

7 technology investments and changes. And those

8 were the folks who thought, you know, we are

9 going to really need some extra time to make

10 this investment because it is not necessarily

11 clear that our ERP partner will be able to

12 start tomorrow making that change. It would

13 need to be phased in over time. And given the

14 number of distributors who may be making the

15 same request to what are essentially

16 customized systems, it could take some time.

17 MR. RAWALD: So, I will take back

18 July 1st, 2016. I could tell you the 2017 is

19 not going to have a lot, but I think July 1st

20 could be something that is acceptable. I will

21 bring that back.

22 You were obviously a big advocate
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1 for the serial number, and I told you I have

2 already gotten a lot of pushback on that. I

3 brought it up once again, and there is some

4 value to it that we discussed, especially from

5 the point of view of from the top-down and for

6 trying to track some sales.

7 So, folks do want to maintain the

8 serial number for the condensing unit. So,

9 that is kind of where we were with that.

10 So, I can re-engage on the

11 geography one more time, and I can bring July

12 1st, 2016. And then, I think we will be ready

13 to vote on this at that point, if that works

14 for you guys.

15 MS. SHEPHERD: This is Amy.

16 I just had a question. So, where

17 did we come -- I thought we came down -- on

18 the geography question for me a little bit,

19 did we decide that this was a requirement for

20 the South and Southwest, but it was all

21 product. Or I am just not sure where the

22 status was of that.
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1 MR. RAWALD: For the contractors

2 and dealers?

3 MS. SHEPHERD: So, it is

4 different?

5 MR. RAWALD: Right. So, the

6 contractors and dealers we limit to the

7 Southwest and Southeast, guys who are doing

8 jobs in that area.

9 MS. SHEPHERD: Do we have that in

10 here?

11 MR. RAWALD: So, I don't know. 

12 It's on the scope, right? The scope is the

13 first thing that you have up there applies? 

14 Yes.

15 But, for the distributors, we are

16 having a more complicated time accepting it,

17 for reasons we discussed.

18 MR. MELCHI: Yes. And, Doug, I

19 think the one question still, does this apply

20 to again all SEER levels of condensing units

21 or is it simply 13/14?

22 MR. RAWALD: So, my good friends
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1 here decided they wanted to retract that

2 request yesterday. So, after they had asked

3 it, they then pulled it back. So, I did not

4 ask the question. So, right now, we are

5 maintaining all SEER, is what we were going

6 on.

7 MR. WHITE: Doug, I agree to that. 

8 We did do that. But I am not sure that at the

9 distributor level it is not a different

10 question.

11 MR. RAWALD: No, I think it's a

12 fair point. So, I can ask for the

13 distributors, but I didn't have that question

14 yesterday. So, I didn't ask the question.

15 MR. WHITE: Yes, yes.

16 MR. RAWALD: So, if that is the

17 question now --

18 MR. WHITE: I'm not sure it is as

19 important for them to know their 18s and 20s

20 and 16-and-a-halfs.

21 MR. MELCHI: I mean, I think you

22 are likely to have, you know, if they are
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1 doing it for one, that some companies will

2 choose to do it for all SEER levels. But

3 knowing that you may not have to would

4 probably lessen the burden to an extent.

5 MR. RAWALD: Okay. So, where

6 would you want to draw the line, Jon? What

7 number?

8 MR. MELCHI: I'm just thinking

9 through this as well. I guess if I can ask my

10 manufacturing partners with distribution? 

11 Aniruddh and John, is there a number or is it

12 easier for you in your thoughts to do it for

13 everything? I can see benefits in both ways,

14 and I think you will see companies do it both

15 ways.

16 MR. ROY: We'll probably do it for

17 all, just because it is consistent problems.

18 MR. RAWALD: Yes.

19 MR. HURST: Yes, it is hard to

20 segregate process and systems. So, from a

21 practical standpoint, we would do it across

22 the board.
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1 MR. MELCHI: That's fine. I will

2 withdraw that request.

3 MR. RAWALD: Okay.

4 MR. EISNER: Anything else on 15,

5 other than what Doug has got to talk over with

6 DOE?

7 MS. SHEPHERD: This is Amy.

8 I know it is going to be annoying,

9 but so for these units and on the

10 manufacturers, I would add such as well, like

11 we did on the -- sorry.

12 MR. MELCHI: Doug, one last

13 question that came up was party to whom the

14 unit was sold, including company or

15 individual's name, full address, and phone

16 number.

17 You know, a question somebody had

18 brought up was, again, consumer or contractor

19 refuses to give you an address. You can get

20 a phone number from them. Is that something

21 where you -- I mean, is it a no-sale at that

22 point without this information?
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1 MR. RAWALD: No. Listen, you can

2 get what you can get, right?

3 MR. MELCHI: Yes. As close as you

4 can.

5 MR. RAWALD: We want you to get

6 everything, but I want you to make a good7 faith effort, yes.

8 MR. MELCHI: Okay. Yes,

9 absolutely.

10 Thank you.

11 MR. EISNER: All right, slide 16,

12 what do we have to talk about there?

13 MR. RAWALD: I think we just need

14 to change the term to the term that we used on

15 slide 14. There you go. And I think,

16 otherwise, folks were --

17 MR. EISNER: No other problems on

18 this?

19 Is this one we can vote on now or

20 do we want to wait until we resolve everything

21 on 15?

22 MR. RAWALD: I'm prepared to vote
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1 on it. I think we should vote on it. I don't

2 think there is anything -- I don't think 15

3 weighs on this at all.

4 MR. EISNER: Anybody object to the

5 language that is up there now for slide 16?

6 (No response.)

7 Hearing no objections, we will put

8 it down as unanimous.

9 This brings us up to slide 17. We

10 had a number of issues on things like years.

11 MR. RAWALD: Right. So, the only

12 issue I really had right there was the

13 question of how long. And so, I went back to

14 the Department last night, and everybody liked

15 the way that Harvey used his numbers with

16 months. And they are willing to do 48 for

17 contractors, 54 for distributors, and 60 for

18 manufacturers, which is four years, four-and19 a-half years, and five years. So, that was

20 the response to my effort to get three, four,

21 five, which Chuck really liked.

22 MR. EISNER: Anything else on this
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1 slide?

2 MR. HURST: I would request that

3 we double-check the math.

4 (Laughter.)

5 MR. RAWALD: I used my calculator

6 this morning. Don't worry.

7 MR. EISNER: Okay. Looking at the

8 language that is up there with the timeframe

9 that I guess is in there now, yes, slide 17,

10 anybody have any objections?

11 (No response.)

12 Okay. Hearing none, record it as

13 unanimous.

14 That brings us up to slide 18,

15 which I think have down as already being a

16 unanimous vote to support it.

17 MR. McCRUDDEN: I'm sorry, this is

18 Charlie at ACCA.

19 If we could go back to 17 real

20 fast, just one quick question because we

21 talked about, I think, yesterday about the

22 compliance date for recordkeeping
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1 requirements. And I think you said that it is

2 unlikely that this will be final by January

3 1st.

4 Is there something we can put in

5 the preamble about sort of compliance date

6 with the standard versus compliance date with

7 this recordkeeping requirement?

8 MR. RAWALD: So, there is already

9 a compliance date with the standard required,

10 right? So, that is January 1st, 2015.

11 The general course of business

12 with these enforcement-type rules is they

13 become effective 30 days after being final. 

14 So, that would be now are you asking us to,

15 instead of establishing that, have a date

16 certain established?

17 MR. McCRUDDEN: No, no, no. What

18 I am asking is, it is unlikely that the

19 compliance date, the 30 days following it is

20 posted is going to be January 1st, 2015. And

21 so, there is going to be this lag. And there

22 may be some confusion about the recordkeeping
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1 requirement starting on January 1st, 2015,

2 when it is in actuality not going to start

3 until 30 days after you --

4 MR. RAWALD: Right. We will make

5 it clear in the preamble that we are not

6 requiring recordkeeping until 30 days after

7 the final rule is promulgated.

8 MR. McCRUDDEN: Perfect. Thank

9 you.

10 MR. RAWALD: While we would

11 appreciate it, you know, we can't require it. 

12 Right.

13 MR. EISNER: Okay. I think the

14 next slide was 20, which we voted on

15 unanimously.

16 Twenty-one, we had a number of

17 questions or at least questions.

18 Manufacturers, among other things,

19 wanted to caucus on this also.

20 MR. RAWALD: Right. So, the

21 manufacturers wanted to talk about the second

22 bullet, sub-bullet, from the first bullet,
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1 which is what they are going to do if they

2 discontinue something because it is non3 compliant.

4 I don't really see it to be an

5 issue for us to put in the regulation at all. 

6 I just think it would be an issue for someone

7 to kind of figure it out internally how they

8 want to do it. So, if they want to talk about

9 this, great, but I don't think it is a problem

10 for us to navigate or regulate, from my

11 perspective.

12 I just wanted to put you on notice

13 to our thought, which is installers can

14 install discontinued product as long as it is

15 not discontinued because it is non-compliant. 

16 So, if an installer gets his handout and that

17 is no longer on the database, but it was 12

18 months ago when the manufacturer sold that,

19 and it was on the database as being compliant,

20 and it was only discontinued because you

21 decided to do something different, as opposed

22 to you learned that it was non-compliant, the
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1 installer can install it.

2 And then, the manufacturers want

3 to talk about, what can we do to get back

4 things that were deemed non-compliant by DOE

5 or AHRI testing.

6 MR. EISNER: Other things people

7 want to discuss?

8 (No response.)

9 I thought there were questions on

10 indoor and --

11 MS. MEYERS: Yes, I thought on the

12 second bullet we deleted "indoor". I mean,

13 that's what my notes show. I don't know if we

14 agreed to that or not.

15 MR. EISNER: So, "indoor" should

16 come off?

17 And there was some question about

18 unit versus component, I think.

19 MR. RAWALD: Well, that was

20 Chuck's "ask" to me, and then, we talked about

21 the fact that I am a little leery of those

22 terms. But we will navigate that in how we
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1 write it. So, I understand what he is asking,

2 and I will make sure I am sensitive to that

3 concern when we write the regulation.

4 MR. EISNER: Is there anything

5 else here that was left open?

6 MR. McCRUDDEN: Well, this is

7 Charlie with ACCA.

8 To me, there is a huge liability

9 here on that second sub-bullet, which is it is

10 a violation if the contractor installs

11 something that is non-compliant because it was

12 found to be, after testing and rating, non13 compliant.

14 And so, the question I think to

15 the manufacturers is, what are you going to do

16 to inform the contractors that the product

17 that you have out there that is now not legal

18 to install -- because the liability here, the

19 violation is still coming by the contractor

20 for the product that he believed was

21 compliant, but now is no longer compliant.

22 MS. SHEPHERD: But, Doug, it is
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1 not knowing at that point, is it?

2 MR. RAWALD: Right. So, the

3 Department on that, unless the contractor

4 knows, they can't do anything about it. But

5 what we want the manufacturers to do is to

6 figure out a way to get that somewhere else,

7 because I think it is product that is usable

8 still, right? So, I mean, it is still going

9 to be compliant in the North. So, the

10 question is, can the manufacturer somehow

11 reroute that from the distributor, so they get

12 it to the right place?

13 That is what we would like to see

14 happen, I think, from a Department point of

15 view. We don't want to see product

16 manufactured go to waste. We just don't want

17 to see it being installed in the wrong place.

18 So, the manufacturer is already

19 going to have pay the consequences of the fact

20 that they have this product. So, they are

21 going to have incentive to want to make sure

22 it is distributed in the right place, right? 
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1 Because their liability is for the product

2 that is non-compliant being installed in the

3 South.

4 So, it is not an issue for the

5 contractor. It is an issue for the

6 manufacturer. They are going to be liable for

7 improperly-rated products being installed in

8 the wrong region. So, they are going to want

9 to make sure it gets put in the right place. 

10 So, they were just going to talk about how to

11 make it there. But it is not a contractor

12 concern, in my opinion.

13 MR. EISNER: So, you are saying,

14 essentially, if they don't get it into the

15 right region, the manufacturer can be

16 penalized?

17 MR. RAWALD: Right. That is what

18 we talked about before, is that the

19 manufacturer has to figure out what goes where

20 to minimize their liability for the

21 improperly-rated product, the product that is

22 a 13.2 as opposed to being a 14.
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1 And so, the concern is, okay, that

2 they can identify that their distributor has

3 500 units, and they get it sent to the North. 

4 Then, they don't have to pay the fine for

5 those because they have got them to the right

6 place. That is the point. So, we want to

7 incentivize the manufacturers to figure out

8 where things should go.

9 I see John Hurst shaking his head,

10 so at least he understands where I am coming

11 from. I am not sure the rest of the

12 manufacturers agree or not. Bryan is with me,

13 too. Okay.

14 MR. ROCKY: So, this is Bryan.

15 I think, Charlie, the end result

16 is the contractor is going to get a system at

17 this point today that they are buying and

18 going to install. It is a legal combination,

19 but something happens that, on Monday next

20 week, that is no longer a legal combination. 

21 The contractor is still not going to be held

22 liable for anything he did today in good
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1 faith.

2 MR. McCRUDDEN: No, and I

3 understand that. What I am saying is product

4 that is out there, not yet installed, but at

5 the distributor -- I mean, I think this is

6 sort of the recall situation. What do you do

7 and what measures do you do to make sure that

8 it doesn't fall in?

9 Because I understand the knowing

10 requirement on the contractor on installing

11 the product that he may not know is now

12 illegal, but it is --

13 MS. MEYERS: But we deleted the

14 records requirement from distributors for the

15 coil and air handler. So, how can I, as a

16 manufacturer, if I happen to discontinue a

17 combination because it is no longer a valid,

18 certified, compliant unit -- so, I will go

19 tell my distributor this, but he is not

20 required to keep records on that indoor

21 coil/air handler because we just removed it. 

22 So, we have this disconnect.
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1 MR. RAWALD: Well, he is not

2 required by regulation. I can't tell you what

3 you are going to do by contract. I mean, how

4 you dictate what you want to do with your

5 customer to protect yourself is up to you

6 guys, right?

7 MS. MEYERS: But I think the

8 Department has left me very vulnerable because

9 they are saying you are responsible, but

10 you're --

11 MR. RAWALD: This gets back to

12 Harvey's question last week. If you want the

13 Department's help, ask for it, but I have

14 asked multiple times, do you guys want the

15 Department's help with kind of this thing to

16 help track things back for you? And I haven't

17 heard that, no, we want the Department's help.

18 So, I don't want to get in the way

19 of your relationship with your customer. If

20 you want to create regulations and you want to

21 convince Jon of the efficacy of doing that

22 because it is going to help you down the road,
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1 I will support that. I mean, the Department

2 is not -- we are just trying to come to a

3 solution that works for a group in the

4 negotiation here. So, I'm open.

5 MR. WHITE: So, this is Chuck

6 White.

7 So, I'm reading the three bullets

8 that are up there. I don't really read any of

9 those as a manufacturer's issue. It is not

10 certified as that. So, did I not pick the

11 correct one? If I didn't pick the right

12 combination, now if you are saying it is

13 something that was certified and was later

14 deemed that certification was invalid, I think

15 that is a different phrasing.

16 And the reason I say that is I'm

17 only going to be able to pick equipment that

18 is SEER 14 and greater. So, anything,

19 theoretically, that I install, I would have

20 had to make sure that it was one of these 14

21 and higher only, and you guys didn't have any

22 combinations, the manufacturers didn't list
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1 any combinations that were less than that.

2 MR. RAWALD: Right. And so, the

3 scenario we are talking about here, Chuck, is

4 the manufacturer discontinues the product. 

5 So, that certification disappears from my

6 database. But you've already bought it and

7 you are ready to install it. And so, you can

8 still install it. Because they discontinue

9 it, that is not going to stop you from doing

10 your job.

11 But, if the manufacturer took it

12 off the list because we told them to because

13 it was non-compliant, based upon our testing,

14 they are going to have to do something or they

15 should do something to make sure that those

16 things aren't installed, or else they are

17 going to be held responsible for it.

18 That is back to that basic premise

19 that we talked about a while back, which is

20 the manufacturers for product that is

21 improperly rated are going to be responsible

22 for making sure that they don't actually get
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1 installed, or they are going to have to pay

2 the consequences, a $200 fine, a maximum, for

3 the ones that are installed there. So, this

4 isn't a contractor issue. I don't think this

5 is a problem for the contractor. It really is

6 for the manufacturers to figure out how do we

7 stop product being non-compliant for being

8 installed.

9 So, I want to make sure when I

10 describe the discontinued status, because

11 oftentimes things are discontinued for other

12 reasons that people understand. There is that

13 one caveat that links up with this other issue

14 we talked about before.

15 MS. MEYERS: Yes, so this is Karen

16 with Rheem again.

17 I guess I am still a little

18 uncomfortable because you have also made the

19 comment that or the Department has made the

20 comment that they want OEMs to take

21 responsibility to move inventory that a

22 contractor may have, if a combination is
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1 discontinued because that certification is no

2 longer valid.

3 So, I couldn't do that at this

4 point because the Department has said, for the

5 enforcement of regional standards, that my

6 distributor partner doesn't have to keep

7 records of the two pieces of equipment that

8 are used to certify that equipment or that

9 rating.

10 I am still a little concerned

11 about this. This doesn't happen often, but,

12 you know, you have said that OEMs have to take

13 responsibility for or have some type of

14 responsibility for contractor inventory. I

15 guess that is where I am getting a disconnect. 

16 If you could maybe walk me through it one more

17 time, I would appreciate it.

18 MR. RAWALD: Right.

19 THE COURT REPORTER: I'm sorry,

20 could you repeat that last comment again?

21 MS. MEYERS: I said, maybe if you

22 could just walk me through it one more time, 
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1 I could get a little more comfortable with it.

2 MR. RAWALD: Right. So, the idea

3 that I put forward, I think it must have been

4 three or four meetings ago now, but, boy,

5 everything is being run together for me, was

6 I wanted to make sure everyone understood that

7 this scenario in which a manufacturer

8 manufactures and rates a product at 14, a

9 system, sells it, and then, we test it and it

10 tests at 13.2, if it is installed in the

11 South, that would be installed in violation. 

12 But it wouldn't be the installer's fault

13 because he thought that it was compliant. It

14 is the manufacturer's fault.

15 And so, what I explained back then

16 was the manufacturer has to minimize their

17 liability, has to show what ended up in the

18 North and if it didn't end up installed at

19 all. So, if you can say, okay, well, I think

20 that is the best way to help minimize your

21 liability, would be to identify those that are

22 still in distribution and not installed and
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1 say, "Hey, guys, can you put those over in

2 Minnesota as opposed to setting them down in

3 Texas?"

4 I don't know how that works for a

5 manufacturer or a supply chain idea at all. 

6 I am just saying to you that you should think

7 about that because it is a way of minimizing

8 your liability before the Department for the

9 installation of non-compliant units because of

10 the improper rating.

11 So, if you need records to be

12 retained to support that action on your part,

13 tell us and we can talk about it again. But

14 I teed that up a while back. And, Harvey, I

15 think very carefully said, "Do you need the

16 Department's help?" And the reaction we seem

17 to have gotten was, well, we can take care of

18 it through our customer relationships that we

19 have built.

20 So, I am open on this concept, but

21 I want to kind of get to an answer that works

22 for everybody. But we can't change the basic
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1 premise of liability. That is going to be

2 true. So, if you need these tools from us,

3 then we have to reopen that inquiry.

4 MR. WINNINGHAM: This is Dave.

5 Could we go back to slide 14 and

6 15 momentarily?

7 MR. EISNER: Do you want to see 14

8 first?

9 MR. WINNINGHAM: Yes, 14.

10 MS. MEYERS: I am going to know

11 what I sent my distributors, but I am not

12 going to know what you sent to contractors. 

13 And you're not going to know what you sent to

14 contractors on the indoor coil side because

15 you don't have to keep a record of it.

16 But I am responsible for making

17 sure that inventory gets out of the

18 contractors and I move it somewhere, but you

19 don't have a requirement to keep the coil

20 model number and who you sold that coil to. 

21 So, I have no way to get there.

22 MR. RAWALD: Would it be helpful
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1 to caucus for a little bit here? I mean, is

2 this something that -- you guys are having a

3 little bit of an interdispute. Maybe it would

4 be helpful to caucus for a few minutes on this

5 to kind of --

6 MR. McCRUDDEN: So, this is

7 Charlie with ACCA.

8 Before we do that, though, just

9 talking to Doug now, I'm okay. My concern

10 was, is that a contractor could get captured

11 up I this, but he assures me that can't

12 happen.

13 MS. MEYERS: It's not your

14 problem; it's my problem.

15 MR. McCRUDDEN: I understand that. 

16 But do you know what?

17 MR. RAWALD: She's saying, no,

18 it's not a problem.

19 (Laughter.)

20 MR. McCRUDDEN: Okay.

21 MR. WHITE: So, this is Chuck

22 White.
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1 One last thing to maybe help. We

2 took the indoor coil out because we agreed

3 that you could have an indoor coil that could

4 be a SEER 13 in some applications and could be

5 a SEER 14 in others.

6 And the condensing unit to be sold

7 in the South can't have a combination of less

8 than 14. And if one of your listed, rated

9 combinations fails that, now that condensing

10 unit no longer makes that 14 floor. And so,

11 that has to be addressed. Either you have to

12 change the rating scenario, so you delete

13 something, or you have a unit that is

14 mislabeled and you've got to pull them back.

15 MS. MEYERS: So, right, Chuck, I

16 know how we rate products. The problem is, if

17 I have a coil that has a bad TXV and it is

18 changed, so it is no longer getting the rating

19 that I certified, I am going to discontinue

20 that combination. I am going to come out with

21 a new coil model number that is redesigned, or

22 whatever.
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1 But I have responsibility because

2 now that 14 SEER rating is getting 13.8. So,

3 I know who I shipped those coils to. But now,

4 I also need to know where my customers shipped

5 those coils to, so that I can take some

6 remedial action and move that inventory.

7 I don't know of any OEM that --

8 you know, if OEMs had agreements in place

9 today with their customers to make sure that

10 distributors kept track by model and serial

11 number of every unit they sold to a

12 contractor, we wouldn't be having any of this

13 discussion.

14 I can't go find out if you have

15 one of my coils that may have a bad TXV valve

16 on it because I don't sell to you. I sell to

17 my distributor. But I am responsible. I hold

18 the liability for that combination.

19 So, my issue is that, if I have to

20 take that action, I think that the requirement

21 for the distributor to keep track of the

22 indoor coil and model number is somewhat
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1 important because I can't get there from here.

2 I am trying to do the right thing

3 and trying to go get your inventory, so you

4 are not putting in a bad combination, but

5 there is no way for me to find that path.

6 MR. WHITE: Right. And this is

7 Chuck White.

8 And I get that. But, also, I

9 think the distributor has to tell you who they

10 sold it to because, even if I buy units from

11 John, condensers and evaporators, there is no

12 guarantee that I installed those combinations. 

13 You still have to come talk to me to see what

14 I put in as an installation.

15 MS. MEYERS: I don't even know who

16 you are. I don't know your name. I don't

17 know that you bought one.

18 MR. WHITE: I get that. I get

19 that. But you have to say to the distributor,

20 "Here's the serial numbers that I have. Who

21 did you sell them to?"

22 MR. EISNER: I think we still need
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1 to caucus now. Karen, do you still agree we

2 need a caucus time?

3 MS. MEYERS: I don't know whether

4 we need to caucus, but I can't agree to this

5 until I call back to my, you know -- so, Rheem

6 cannot agree to this as it stands until I talk

7 to my company.

8 MR. RAWALD: To which slide is

9 that, the distributors, the distributor

10 discovery slide? Okay. So, we are reopening

11 that. So, it is no longer a -- okay. Okay.

12 MS. MEYERS: So, because of the

13 way we have the stuff worded on 21, so it is

14 kind of a combination of 15 and 21 that I am

15 having --

16 MR. LATTANZI: Yes, to be clear,

17 we are reopening 15, right?

18 MR. RAWALD: Right, and, actually,

19 we never closed it actually.

20 MR. LATTANZI: Well, 15 wasn't

21 closed.

22 MR. RAWALD: Yes, because I had
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1 the open issue for a couple of things.

2 MR. LATTANZI: Right.

3 MR. RAWALD: So, that's fine. 

4 Okay.

5 So, just to be clear, we are not

6 going to adjust the manufacturer liability

7 piece, unfortunately, because the manufacturer

8 is responsible for the fact that it is not

9 compliant, in our minds. So, the question is

10 really, what does the manufacturer need to

11 help them minimize their liability, I think as

12 I see it.

13 MS. MEYERS: Yes. So, yes. We

14 can caucus if the rest of the OEMs want to.

15 MR. LATTANZI: Well, I do have one

16 question. I mean, where I am a little lost,

17 Karen, is I am trying to find -- and it must

18 be in a different group of slides -- where we

19 are responsible for inventory at the

20 contractor level. Was that indicated

21 somewhere else?

22 MR. RAWALD: No. So, you are not
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1 responsible for that per se. What you are

2 responsible for is, if you have rated a

3 product and it doesn't perform at that level,

4 nobody else down the chain knows that because

5 you are the one who is rating it. And so, the

6 issue we have discussed a few times -- and it

7 may have been at one of the meetings that you

8 were not here, when Dan was here -- that the

9 manufacturer is going to be responsible for

10 that unless they can show, no, this actually

11 went to the North; it didn't go to the North

12 (sic).

13 So, if you manufactured 1,000

14 units of a system that are rated at 14, but

15 actually perform at 13.2, and you can show,

16 no, no, 750 went to Minnesota and only 250

17 went to Texas, then you would only be

18 responsible for those 250.

19 And so, the manufacturers want to

20 minimize the liability you would have for

21 installation of a product that you improperly

22 rated that actually is non-compliant with the
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1 regional standard. And so, how do you do

2 that? And so, that is what Karen is saying: 

3 how do I do that if I don't have a complete

4 chain of events here from the manufacturer on

5 down?

6 MR. LATTANZI: Right.

7 MR. RAWALD: And we have created

8 this gap now by taking out the air handler

9 problem for the distributors to make the

10 distributor's life a little easier.

11 MR. LATTANZI: Okay. So, I mean,

12 I get it now. I mean, in the event it happens

13 as you indicated, to mitigate our exposure, we

14 have to go after the inventory that is not

15 only at the distributor, but what is at the

16 contractor. And the question is, how do we

17 get there? I understand.

18 MR. HURST: Well, just because it

19 was shipped to the South doesn't mean that it

20 remains in the South -- or North.

21 MR. LATTANZI: Right.

22 MR. EISNER: Okay. So, caucus?
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1 MR. LATTANZI: Can we request 15

2 minutes?

3 MR. EISNER: We can take the

4 regular break now.

5 MR. LATTANZI: Yes.

6 MR. EISNER: A 15-minute break.

7 (Whereupon, the foregoing matter

8 went off the record at 2:46 p.m. and went back

9 on the record at 3:06 p.m.)

10 MR. EISNER: Okay, we're back on

11 the record.

12 First of all, let's talk about

13 whether anybody thinks we are going to finish

14 today.

15 MR. FENSTROM: This is Gary.

16 I truly hope we are going to

17 finish today because, unfortunately, I will

18 have to be on the telephone next time if we

19 have to have a next time.

20 MR. EISNER: Does everybody

21 believe that is a reason to finish today?

22 (Laughter.)
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1 MS. SHEPHERD: This is Amy

2 Shepherd.

3 I don't know about that, but I

4 think the issue that I raised earlier about

5 product is something I have to take back,

6 which is not to say that, if it turns out that

7 that is the answer, which is not to say that

8 it couldn't be telephonic, if it is only

9 limited to that one issue. But that is where

10 I am

11 MR. EISNER: And I think that is a

12 good distinction. If that is all we have left

13 and it is basically I can agree with what was

14 on the screen, we could do that

15 telephonically. But I think we have -- what

16 did we decide -- seven of the issues

17 remaining. Some of them are a little more

18 difficult issues. When I say "issues," I mean

19 slide. It is a separate issue.

20 And we have some things that are

21 not necessarily covered in the slides that

22 other people may want to bring up and open up
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1 for discussion.

2 We have a little over, almost two

3 hours left. So, my sense is we are not going

4 to finish. We may only need to meet one more

5 day. We have two more days scheduled on the

6 15th and 16th.

7 And I would like to finish today,

8 but my advice is don't feel that you want to

9 rush, if spending another couple of hours will

10 get us the consensus that could be very, very

11 valuable.

12 So, why don't we keep going? But

13 sometime, especially if people are going to

14 start to leave -- anybody have to leave

15 between now and 5:00? I know we have lost a

16 couple of people.

17 MR. LATTANZI: I'm sorry, this is

18 Matt.

19 We have already lost John.

20 MR. EISNER: Right, but I am

21 asking if anybody else is going to leave

22 because tell us when, and before you leave we
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1 can break from our substantive discussion and

2 figure out what we want to do next about

3 meeting.

4 MR. ROCKY: So, this is Bryan.

5 I will be leaving about 4:30.

6 MR. EISNER: Okay. Quarter after

7 4:00, let's take a few minutes to decide what

8 to do.

9 All right. During the break we

10 were talking about 15 and 21. Is there

11 anything more? Did we reach any agreements or

12 have any discussion that would be valuable to

13 go over now?

14 (No response.)

15 All right. If not, we were up to

16 21. Does everybody feel that we have to put

17 21 off until later to --

18 MR. RAWALD: Right. So, this is

19 Doug.

20 And at the break, Tim did come to

21 me and say, "We deleted the word `indoor'. I

22 think it is worthy of at least thinking about
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1 it some more."

2 This is one of the areas that was

3 in the guidance that was highly commented on

4 by people. So, I guess from the Department's

5 point of view, I am going to have to circle

6 back with our technical folks to make sure

7 they are okay with dropping "indoor" there. 

8 So, I guess we are not going to be prepared to

9 drop "indoor" today without me having that

10 conversation, and I haven't had that

11 conversation yet.

12 MR. EISNER: Okay. Anything else

13 on 21?

14 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim with

15 AHRI.

16 I guess for Doug, can you clarify

17 a little bit, you know, the issue about a unit

18 not complying with the original standard

19 because of the test? What would be the

20 responsibility of the manufacturers? I mean,

21 with respect to finding, to find the products,

22 I mean, do manufacturers have to go and find
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1 the product at the contractor level?

2 MR. RAWALD: Right. So, this is

3 Doug.

4 So, the manufacturers don't have

5 any responsibility other than paying the fine,

6 right? So, you pay a per-unit fine for every

7 one that ends up in the South. Now, if you

8 want to proactively stop those from ending up

9 in the South because you want to minimize your

10 liability, that seems like a good idea and we

11 would totally support that. But we are not

12 able to require you to do anything other than

13 that, other than to pay the fines for the ones

14 that end up in the South.

15 MR. AMRANE: This is the

16 clarification we want today.

17 MR. EISNER: Anything else on

18 slide 21?

19 (No response.)

20 Okay. According to my notes, we

21 had a unanimous vote on slide 22.

22 We had a unanimous vote on 23 and
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1 24.

2 We said on 25, "Wait to gather"

3 something. I can't read my note, but --

4 MR. RAWALD: Right. Twenty-five

5 was relevant to 31, was the problem. So, 25

6 was linked to 31.

7 I have gone back and talked to

8 folks in the Department about the timeline

9 here. We are comfortable keeping this, and we

10 will make a concession on slide 31 that we can

11 get to that, hopefully, will make things

12 easier. So, if we want to put this off until

13 we talk about 31, that is fine to me.

14 MR. EISNER: All right.

15 MR. RAWALD: That's fine. Thirty16 one is where I had all the notes really that

17 I had to take back. So, that's fine.

18 So, Amy's question to me was

19 regarding the corporate entity that would be

20 responsible. So, the Department takes action

21 against the company that is culpable for the

22 actions that they take.
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1 So, McCrudden Heating and Cooling

2 is the one who installs the bad unit. They're

3 the one we take an action against. Their

4 parent company is not going to be held

5 responsible for their actions. And Rheem

6 would not be held responsible or liable for

7 dealing with Chuck's or Charlie's parent

8 company, as long as you didn't deal with

9 Charlie's company. So, that is how we would

10 deem it.

11 So, it is the company that we

12 would take the action against who is the

13 entity, and it would be that entity through

14 which the company could not deal with. Does

15 that make sense, Amy?

16 MS. SHEPHERD: So, a company that

17 has multiple locations, if the Department goes

18 through and finds that the routine violation

19 was isolated to a specific location --

20 MR. RAWALD: Right. So --

21 MS. SHEPHERD: -- does that mean

22 that you are still prohibited from dealing
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1 with that entire entity at other locations?

2 MR. RAWALD: Right. So, we would

3 take action against companies. So, if it is

4 the same company, it would be against the

5 company. So, yes, if they had different

6 corporate names for each one of those

7 branches, it would be different. But, if they

8 are all the same company, the company would be

9 the one that would be responsible.

10 MS. SHEPHERD: And the Department

11 wouldn't have any flexibility to craft

12 something within this rule that did that? 

13 Because I think, you know, you could very,

14 very easily find that -- like I'm thinking of

15 distributors, in particular. At a big

16 distributor, that you have one branch of that

17 distributor or one location where things maybe

18 weren't up-to-speed and that is where it all

19 happened. But they have corporate policies in

20 place. You know, you go through the whole

21 rigamarole and you find that it is sort of

22 isolated to that.
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1 But the Department would view that

2 it doesn't have -- can we have the ability to

3 say in that particular case, the Department

4 makes a particular finding or something, that

5 it would be to that location?

6 MR. RAWALD: Right. And so, I

7 think that is a fair question. It is not one

8 that I have asked. And I think it is an open

9 area for us to discuss at least further. So,

10 we could tee it up further for the talk. I

11 don't know how we craft language that would be

12 appropriate, but I think we could talk about

13 it.

14 MR. MELCHI: Doug, I'm sorry, this

15 is Jon with HARDI.

16 So, to kind of piggyback onto

17 Amy's question, and that would be the scenario

18 I think you and I emailed back where, if the

19 headquarters discovered that this had

20 happened, and then was taking steps within

21 that branch, you know, whether you terminate

22 all the folks who were responsible, put all
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1 the employees through training at that branch,

2 or maybe even suspend equipment sales for a

3 period of time, those would be things that you

4 would consider?

5 MR. RAWALD: Right. Those would

6 be considerations we would have to the idea to

7 having a routine violator in the first place.

8 MR. MELCHI: Okay.

9 MR. RAWALD: And so, what I think

10 is more likely is that we wouldn't find the

11 company would be a routine violator because

12 they --

13 MR. MELCHI: Took those steps?

14 MR. RAWALD: -- dealt with that

15 branch, rather than trying to carve out some

16 sort of exception to the company vis-a-vis the

17 branch. I think that is what we would be more

18 comfortable doing. So, like dealing with

19 things at a company level.

20 MS. SHEPHERD: I mean, if you get

21 to the same place --

22 MR. RAWALD: Right, yes.
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1 MS. SHEPHERD: -- that is fine. 

2 But I think we would want, then, some -- I

3 guess we just want to think about that because

4 I just want to make sure that you do end up

5 getting to the same place.

6 MR. RAWALD: I understand.

7 MS. SHEPHERD: Okay.

8 MR. RAWALD: No, I do.

9 MR. WHITE: So, Doug, this is

10 Chuck White.

11 Enlighten me as to what you

12 consider a franchise/franchisee? Is that a

13 separate business or is that a division of a

14 master business?

15 MR. RAWALD: Right. So, we look

16 at companies based upon who is actually

17 licensed in their state, the registry of a

18 company. So, if the company has a filing with

19 the state saying, "We're a company," then that

20 is what we view to be an entity that we would

21 take an action against. That is how we

22 operate.
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1 So, does that answer that question

2 for you? Does that help clarify it at all or

3 not?

4 So, there is a lot of complexity

5 to corporate law, and it varies by state. And

6 so, I can't give advice on that

7 wholeheartedly. I can tell you what our

8 practice is.

9 MR. WHITE: Yes, I think that is

10 okay.

11 MR. RAWALD: Okay.

12 MR. WHITE: It doesn't really

13 answer it, but I am not a franchisee. So --

14 (Laughter.)

15 MR. RAWALD: Okay.

16 MR. ROCKY: Doug, this is Bryan.

17 So, I am trying to understand how

18 this applies for factory-owned distribution

19 under this discussion. As a manufacturer, I

20 know what I have got to do, but with factory21 owned distribution, and some of it, I am not

22 as dependent as Jon is and others, but I have
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1 14 factory branches. If I have my branch in

2 a city become a violator, then I am now

3 required not to sell those products in the

4 rest of my branches because they are part of

5 a company entity that is all of us, as Johnson

6 Controls? Is there a different discussion

7 point there?

8 MR. RAWALD: Right. Is your

9 factory a Johnson Controls factory or is it a

10 York factory? I mean, what is the factory?

11 MR. ROCKY: So, the factory and

12 the company that builds the units is Johnson

13 Controls.

14 MR. RAWALD: Uh-hum.

15 MR. ROCKY: York is a brand name

16 these days, like a lot of other companies have

17 brand names.

18 MR. RAWALD: Okay. And then, who

19 is the distribution company? Is that also

20 Johnson Controls?

21 MR. ROCKY: It is Johnson

22 Controls, yes. It is a division of, we are a
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1 division of, but it is Johnson Controls.

2 MR. RAWALD: Yes. I have to think

3 about it because that is corporate law beyond

4 the level of which I am comfortable giving an

5 answer without talking to some folks, since it

6 is a complicated question.

7 MR. ROCKY: Yes, and it is well

8 beyond my even beginning knowledge. So, that

9 is why I asked the question, because it is

10 going to come up.

11 MR. RAWALD: Yes.

12 MR. ROCKY: It already has. But I

13 understand how to deal with the distributor. 

14 I think I understand how to deal with -- and

15 Steve is not here -- a Johnstone Supply that

16 has many locations, but many different owners

17 and things. And I think I know how to deal

18 with a privately-owned distributor, but I am

19 not quite as sure on this area of factory20 owned branches versus factory-owned

21 distribution, because I think there is some

22 difference in terms between the manufacturers
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1 and how they organize and control and run

2 their factory-owned distribution.

3 MR. RAWALD: Right. Okay, Amy

4 also asked the question once again about

5 product under 10 CFR 430.32(c). I went back

6 and talked to folks in the Department again,

7 and we are still pretty steadfast that that is

8 how we look at the term as defined. It is

9 consistent across the board that the term in

10 the products, in the prohibited act that

11 applies to manufacturers, where it says "sale

12 of a product," means the product as defined

13 under 430.32(c), the entire seven classes

14 listed there, and for central air

15 conditioners.

16 So, if the group wants to talk

17 further at length about whether they want to

18 recommend a different item, I don't want to

19 forestall that conversation. I would vote

20 against it. But that could, then, be

21 something that we could go back and think

22 about and deal with it consistent with the way
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1 we would say we would do that in the

2 rulemaking activity, as we described in the

3 beginning in our Working Group working rules

4 here.

5 MS. SHEPHERD: So, this is Amy.

6 If I could have just some

7 clarification, that would help me, because I

8 have to go back and explain this. So, when

9 you say it is applied this way across the

10 board, in what other situation is there a

11 product that has product classes, and there is

12 an enforcement action that relates to one of

13 the standards of the product class and it has

14 an impact on a different product class? They

15 are all the same product.

16 MR. RAWALD: Uh-hum.

17 MS. SHEPHERD: Okay.

18 MR. RAWALD: Right. And so, we

19 regulate it; we bring enforcement actions on

20 distribution on a basic model level. It is

21 not even a product class, right? So, if I

22 find a basic model is non-compliant, then it
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1 is limited to that basic model. It doesn't

2 apply to any other products in that.

3 So, this is a totally different

4 prohibited act in that way. So, I am not

5 saying that the impact is the same across how

6 we do prohibited acts. What is the same is

7 how we view the term "product". And so, the

8 term "product" as we define it, even though it

9 is at other places in the statute "consumer

10 product" and "covered product," in this

11 particular instance, the way it is phrased, we

12 view it to be the same term, to mean the

13 product as defined, including all product

14 classes. If the statute had product classes,

15 it would have said "product class". That is

16 a defined term, we feel. So, that is the

17 variability that I see there and that our

18 lawyers have discussed over dealing with this

19 issue.

20 MS. SHEPHERD: Okay. So, I guess

21 my concern is, as I said, it is the

22 implication of this going forward. So, if we
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1 had something right now where you have, like

2 for labeling, you have a product. That is a

3 prohibited act that is based off the product. 

4 And you had a product that had product

5 classes, and one of the labels within that

6 product class, would the Department feel it

7 had authority to take any kind of action vis8 a-vis any other product class?

9 Do you see what I am saying? I

10 mean, like --

11 MR. RAWALD: I am having a hard

12 time following the hypothetical. I'm really

13 sorry. Because the Department, up until now,

14 takes actions in two areas, and that is

15 distribution of basic models that are not in

16 compliance. It is called distribution of a

17 new product. So, that is that term, that "new

18 covered product," which is unique to that

19 particular statutory phrase, and we view it at

20 the basic model level.

21 And then, we have distribution or

22 failure to apply information, which we use a
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1 lot, especially in the certification context. 

2 If you don't certify, we are probably going to

3 bring action for failure to certify. And

4 product, once again, we view that on the

5 large- or small-scale.

6 So, I can't say there is any

7 analogy in the prohibited acts section of what

8 we are doing. So, we are looking at how we

9 have treated the term "product" in the statute

10 across our regulatory scheme.

11 MS. SHEPHERD: Okay. So, the

12 Department views, it wouldn't even view that

13 it had flexibility, given these are regional

14 standards, and it is different, to make sure,

15 to allow us to create an enforcement rule that

16 would be limited to that product class?

17 Because the thing that I have, I

18 mean, the ultimate thing I have here is that

19 there is a violation regarding a standard that

20 is applicable to a product class. That

21 standard is not applicable to a different

22 product class, but the consequence is going to
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1 be that you can't sell to that entity. No

2 manufacturer can sell a different product that

3 has a totally different standard applied to

4 it.

5 And this going to come up when we

6 are dealing with regional standards for

7 furnaces as well. So, I just really want to

8 make sure that we understand this as we go

9 forward.

10 So, my question is, so we don't

11 even have the ability to say, okay, but for

12 purposes of this enforcement rule, what we are

13 going to craft is, for our effective

14 enforcement plan, is that it is going to be

15 the action that manufacturers are going to be

16 prohibited from is going to be that they can't

17 sell that product class?

18 MR. RAWALD: So, I guess, as a

19 baseline, I think an agency has the ability to

20 not use the entire breadth of their authority

21 if they have discretion, right? So, in

22 enforcing a rule, there is always
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1 prosecutorial discretion. So, we could, of

2 course, decide we want to use prosecutorial

3 discretion to narrow the class of products for

4 which we would collect civil penalties for a

5 manufacturer for selling to a person that is

6 deemed to be a routine violator.

7 So, we could do that. And so, the

8 Department might be amenable to doing that. 

9 I don't know. What I have been told is we are

10 looking at the term "product" to be consistent

11 across our interpretation of it. This is the

12 way we view it.

13 But, if the group wants to come to

14 a different conclusion, I will bring that back

15 to the Department. Rather than saying I'll

16 vote no, I will bring it back to the

17 Department and try my best to have them

18 understand your point and say we should use

19 our discretion here to narrow the scope of

20 what we are doing to what makes sense to the

21 group. I will do that. So, if you want to

22 open the discussion that way, I can bring it
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1 back that way.

2 MS. SHEPHERD: Right. Well, I

3 think I need to take it -- I think we need to

4 see how the rest of it pans out. That is very

5 good to know in determining how the rest of

6 this pans out.

7 And I think where we are coming

8 from is that we just had a very different

9 expectation of this as we started this. 

10 Because when we talked about the scope of this

11 rulemaking, it was really specific and it

12 related to split-systems. We have that in our

13 document.

14 But now, what we are talking about

15 is an enforcement plan that the effect of that

16 enforcement plan is going to affect different

17 product classes, which is not something that

18 we anticipated.

19 MR. RAWALD: Right. No, I hear

20 that.

21 MR. SACHS: So, this is Harvey.

22 And if I were Karen, thinking
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1 about your definition of "product," it might

2 seem to me it is not even nuclear, but

3 hydrogen and that it could affect her sales of

4 water heaters, if there is a violation on the

5 regional standard for air conditioners.

6 MR. RAWALD: Right. So, that is

7 not the way we view it. So, we are limiting

8 it. We think "product" means the 430.32(c)

9 central air conditioner product. So, it would

10 not affect anything else that is not under

11 those seven product classes of central air

12 conditioner listed there.

13 MR. SACHS: Thanks. I should have

14 remembered that.

15 MR. RAWALD: That's okay.

16 MR. SACHS: And Karen didn't need

17 my help.

18 MR. RAWALD: I don't mind

19 repeating these things because I think it is

20 really important and I want to get them right.

21 Now, that being said, the question

22 was asked about, "Well, hey, if someone is
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1 appealing, what could we do here?" And so, in

2 exercise of discretion, the Department is

3 willing to do the Chuck White compromise,

4 which would be, hey, if you sell during the

5 pendency of appeal to a person who has been

6 deemed a routine violator product that would

7 not comply with the minimum standards of the

8 region, then that will be something you will

9 pay the civil penalty for.

10 So narrowing the scope quite a

11 bit, right? So now, we are only talking about

12 below 14 SEER or below EER, central air

13 conditioners, splits and packaged systems. 

14 So, that would be the thing by which you could

15 be fined for selling if someone appealed and,

16 then, lost during the time that the appeal is

17 ongoing.

18 And so, the point of that is to

19 basically so you, as the manufacturer, could

20 say to someone who is found to be a routine

21 violator, "Hey, are you appealing? Great. 

22 While we're waiting for your appeal to come
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1 on, I am only going to sell you things that

2 are above the standard in the region, until we

3 figure out for sure whether or not you're

4 doing something bad here. So, I am not going

5 to sell you anything that is below the

6 standard until such time as we have worked

7 this out."

8 So, that is a much more narrowing

9 of the risk for the manufacturer. Hopefully,

10 that is an acceptable outcome. It is not a

11 complete, hey, you can sell them anything. It

12 is you can't sell them product, as I think

13 that would be doing the bad thing.

14 I think this is the position that

15 Chuck offered and that Ray Ellis advocated,

16 because it stops bad stuff from getting into

17 the wrong location.

18 MR. DORIA: Yes, Doug, this is

19 Jordan.

20 I would say I appreciate that, and

21 I think that is a very good approach and sort

22 of a good compromise. It is preventing them
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1 from being able to violate.

2 Just sort of a technical question. 

3 If they are being deemed a routine violator,

4 we never really talked about, you know, what

5 exactly are they violating, meaning which of

6 the two regions or which of the two standards.

7 Now in the instance that someone

8 is violating only the South standard, I am

9 assuming we need to sell them only 14 SEER

10 product. If they violated the Southwest

11 standard, we would need to sell them 14 SEER

12 product that also, then, met the EER

13 requirements, right? So, it would be sort of

14 what we could and couldn't sell them would be

15 pegged to, I'll say, the exact standard that

16 they violated. Is that right? Is my

17 understanding of it right?

18 MR. RAWALD: Right. So, I didn't

19 put it that way. I think that is a

20 possibility. The way we viewed it would be

21 you can only sell them the product that would

22 comply with the region in which they are
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1 working. And so, if they are an installer and

2 they are working in the Southeast, they would

3 have to be minimally compliant with the

4 Southeast. I think it is basically the same

5 result, but it is just we were looking after

6 where they were operating as opposed to what

7 standard they violated.

8 Because what I wouldn't want to

9 have is someone only violated the EER

10 standard. And so, they moved to the Southeast

11 and they start buying a bunch of 13 SEER

12 stuff. We are saying, well, they haven't

13 violated that part yet. So, we know they are

14 a routine violator. So, we still have to sell

15 them things that are minimally compliant with

16 the standard at that point, until we know that

17 they are not -- until we have eviscerated that

18 finding and said, "Oh, okay, that was wrong. 

19 DOE was wrong."

20 Anyone else have a thought on that

21 outcome? Does that seem like a sensible

22 compromise? I mean, I really appreciate Chuck
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1 putting it forward. I thought that was a good

2 idea, personally.

3 Okay, the request for the change

4 "mitigates," no liability for sales, that's

5 fine. No liability.

6 Karen had asked for more than 15

7 days. I am not able to get it at the moment. 

8 So, 15 days is where I am at.

9 MS. MEYERS: Is that, I guess,

10 business days?

11 MR. RAWALD: Right. So, the days,

12 we hadn't discussed whether it was business or

13 calendar days. I am willing to say business

14 days. The folks I work with, I am afraid they

15 are going to say it is calendar days, in their

16 mind. So, we will go back and wrangle on

17 that.

18 Aniruddh, did you have a point?

19 MR. ROY: Doug, I was going to

20 recommend the same thing.

21 MR. RAWALD: Business days?

22 MR. ROY: Fifteen business days.
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1 MR. RAWALD: Right. And I can see

2 the wisdom behind that, especially given

3 holidays and other things. I just can't say

4 that that is what people meant when they

5 agreed with me, with what I pushed them to

6 agree to. So, I have got to talk to them some

7 more.

8 MR. EISNER: If the 15th days

9 falls on a Saturday or Sunday, what is your

10 current practice, to give them more time?

11 MR. RAWALD: It is always the next

12 business day. We always go to the next

13 business day when it is a weekend or a holiday

14 the day falls upon. But we typically count

15 the days because a lot of things in EPCA are

16 30 days, and we use calendar days. We just

17 give them the extra day or two that is

18 required to get to the actual business day.

19 So, that is my concern, is that

20 would be divergent from our current practice

21 to do business days rather than calendar days.

22 MR. ROY: Doug, I wanted to make
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1 another comment on bullet 1.

2 MR. RAWALD: Okay.

3 MR. ROY: Actually, the sub-bullet

4 to that, where it says, "10 CFR 430.32(c),"

5 says, "Central Air Conditioner". I am looking

6 at the definition right now or at least that

7 section. It says, "Central Air conditioners

8 and Heat Pumps".

9 So, coming back to Amy's point on

10 the product classes mentioned over there --

11 MR. RAWALD: Right. Maybe it is

12 not so simple?

13 MR. ROY: Right.

14 MR. RAWALD: And, Aniruddh, I want

15 to stress I am willing to bring all these

16 arguments back to folks. And I am letting you

17 know where we stand at the moment.

18 MR. ROY: Right. I understand. I

19 understand your point.

20 MR. RAWALD: I am just giving you

21 all the arguments here.

22 MR. ROY: But it is just, you
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1 know, when we had the scope discussion in our

2 first two days of the meetings, I think we had

3 limited it to central air conditioners.

4 MR. RAWALD: Right. No, I hear

5 what you are saying, and I see the term here. 

6 So, I will bring that back to people and bring

7 it to their attention.

8 Okay.

9 MS. HARIHARAN: This is Johanna.

10 And I just wanted to let you know,

11 when we did make this decision, we were aware

12 that heat pumps is also included.

13 MR. RAWALD: Yes.

14 MS. HARIHARAN: Did everyone get

15 that? Okay.

16 THE COURT REPORTER: Could you

17 repeat that? I'm sorry.

18 MS. HARIHARAN: No, that's okay.

19 When we had the discussion about

20 the definition, we were aware that heat pumps

21 was also within the definition.

22 MR. EISNER: You're saying DOE or
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1 you're saying the table here?

2 MS. HARIHARAN: DOE.

3 MR. EISNER: Yes, that is my

4 recollection, too, that we discussed heat

5 pumps.

6 MR. RAWALD: Right. No, what she

7 is saying, when the lawyers looked at the

8 issue, they were aware of the point that

9 Aniruddh raised. So, that is not new

10 information. So, we will talk about it, but

11 that is not going to change the outcome, is

12 what she is saying, because we already thought

13 of that point.

14 MR. ROY: Okay.

15 MR. RAWALD: And I have not been

16 properly saying, "Central Air Conditioner and

17 Heat Pumps" is the problem. But I do get your

18 point, Aniruddh, and I think it is a fair

19 point. It is just it is one that we looked

20 at.

21 And I think the biggest issue here

22 is that I think there is definitely room for
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1 us to narrow our discretion. That is the

2 approach the Department could possibly be

3 persuaded at, in my opinion.

4 So, if you want to consider

5 arguments for that, that's fine. I find that

6 will be probably very little traction for

7 narrowing it to the extent of, well, it is

8 really not allowed to selling them any product

9 below the standard. I think it has got to be

10 something more than that, and I think there

11 are other possibilities that are more than

12 that but less than what we view the

13 interpretation to be.

14 So, I will let Amy lead the charge

15 to kind of look at how to do that and

16 readdress that point.

17 I like to delegate. Can you tell

18 that? I used to be in the military.

19 MR. EISNER: Anything else on this

20 slide?

21 MR. ROCKY: Yes, this is Bryan.

22 So, maybe it is not a question
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1 anymore, but we talked about a process time

2 from the time of notice of finding of routine 

3 violation to when manufacturers are liable for

4 the fine. I think the response was

5 immediately. But I think the request was, is

6 there a timeframe that says manufacturers will

7 start taking corrective actions, or whatever,

8 within three days or five days or a week?

9 MR. RAWALD: And is that still the

10 case with the narrowing of the scope, so small

11 of being only those products that would be

12 non-compliant with the region? You still want

13 that time?

14 MR. ROCKY: Again, I am trying to

15 think about the activities with --

16 MR. RAWALD: Right. You need it

17 practical with what you can do in the

18 business. I get that. And so, I want to make

19 sure it makes sense from a business point of

20 view.

21 So, what I have gotten for you is

22 a way smaller scope of activity.
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1 MR. ROCKY: And I appreciate that

2 very much.

3 MR. RAWALD: Right, right.

4 MR. ROCKY: So, I think all I was

5 just looking for the clarification was that

6 you were not planning on having any further

7 discussion on an allowance-of-time process.

8 MR. RAWALD: I can. I can. Just,

9 once again, I only have so much goodwill that

10 I have built on. So, tell me what you need

11 and I will try to go back. What is

12 reasonable? What is a reasonable amount of

13 time for a manufacturer to say, "Hey, I can't

14 sell you anything less than 14 right now

15 because I just received this notice from DOE

16 saying that you're a bad actor."? What is the

17 reasonable amount of time that you would need

18 to turn off your sales of less than 14 product

19 to that person?

20 If you say 30 days, Karen, I am

21 just going to laugh.

22 MS. MEYERS: No, I hate to be
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1 controversial, but, you know, I make the sale,

2 but, then, the shipment may not occur for four

3 weeks. So, are you talking about trucks I

4 have in transit that I have to stop and turn

5 around that is, you know, the fifth stop on a

6 truck?

7 I mean, really, I know this is

8 going beyond, now I'm going beyond ridiculous. 

9 But it is an important business -- I think

10 Bryan brings up a good point. I mean, I would

11 like, you know, once we are notified by DOE

12 that we have 72 hours to implement corrective

13 actions, to ensure that we don't think that's

14 any big deal, because we are going to get the

15 notice. I don't know who is going to get the

16 notice. But, then, there are several

17 transactions that have to be gone through and

18 stopped and people notified and trucking

19 companies notified. You know, I have a lot to

20 do.

21 If you told me at four o'clock, I

22 could not be in compliance by 8:00 a.m. the
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1 next morning.

2 MR. RAWALD: Well, so here's the

3 situation with the prohibited act. Unlike

4 other ones with a distribution in commerce,

5 this one uses the word "sell". This one uses

6 the word "sell". So, that is a meaningful

7 distinction.

8 MS. MEYERS: Okay.

9 MR. RAWALD: So, if the sale is

10 already completed, I can't do anything about

11 it. So, the product already being on the

12 road, that is not something I am going to

13 charge you for. It is the sale. So, you can

14 no longer be selling. So, this is a different

15 prohibited act than the other ones, and "sell"

16 is a very defined term. It is very clear.

17 So, understand that you can no

18 longer sell to that person, once we make the

19 notice, how long would you need to tell people

20 who are in your Sales Department, "Stop making

21 those sales."?

22 MS. MEYERS: So, most of our
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1 orders/sales, there is not a person there.

2 MR. RAWALD: Okay.

3 MS. MEYERS: So, it is all done,

4 you know, electronically or through our ERPs.

5 MR. RAWALD: You just don't want

6 to pay workers anymore, huh?

7 (Laughter.)

8 It is a sad society we live in.

9 MS. MEYERS: It is because of

10 these DOE efficiency standards.

11 MR. RAWALD: That's right.

12 MS. MEYERS: They made the cost of

13 being in the air conditioning --

14 MR. RAWALD: That's right. You

15 need all those people working in customer

16 service, huh?

17 (Laughter.)

18 MS. MEYERS: So, it would still

19 require some time --

20 MR. RAWALD: So, how much time?

21 MS. MEYERS: -- manual

22 intervention. So, I would --
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1 MR. RAWALD: Seventy-two hours, is

2 that --

3 MS. MEYERS: I think that's

4 reasonable.

5 MR. RAWALD: I can get you 72

6 hours, I think. If that is a reasonable

7 amount of time, I can get that.

8 MS. MEYERS: I'm already going to

9 get in so much trouble for what --

10 (Laughter.)

11 MS. SHEPHERD: Make it business,

12 not calendar.

13 MS. MEYERS: The 72 hours is just

14 another nail in my coffin.

15 MR. RAWALD: Okay. So, three

16 business days? Three business days?

17 MR. EISNER: Can we get three

18 business days?

19 MR. RAWALD: Okay, I will ask for

20 three business days. Okay. Okay.

21 MR. WINNINGHAM: Doug, this is

22 David, Allied.
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1 Just for clarity purposes, like

2 Karen mentioned before, you know, we make a

3 sale and loads are put together, and it may

4 ship several weeks out. Kind of what is the

5 perspective on -- where is that cutoff period? 

6 I mean --

7 MR. RAWALD: It is the sale date. 

8 The sale date is the date. The prohibited act

9 is sales.

10 MR. WINNINGHAM: Okay.

11 MR. RAWALD: Sales, sales, sales. 

12 So, it is when you sell it, yes. It is the

13 sale date. It is the sale date, yes. This is

14 one we are very clear on it. That is what the

15 statute gave me authority for.

16 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey.

17 That seems to be a very clean

18 thing, and everything being downstream of that

19 can be triggered. Am I missing something or

20 is everybody onboard?

21 Thank you.

22 MR. RAWALD: Okay. So, the really
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1 open item here seems to be the definition of

2 product, right? So, how about if we took out

3 that bullet and we made a separate slide for

4 product as defined and left that open? Would

5 we otherwise be able to agree to this slide? 

6 We will have to go back if we get three

7 business days. So, I guess I have to do that. 

8 So, okay, I can't do that. That's right.

9 MR. EISNER: Anything else on this

10 slide?

11 (No response.)

12 Are we ready to go back to -- what

13 number was it?

14 MR. RAWALD: Twenty-five.

15 MR. EISNER: Twenty-five, right to

16 appeal.

17 MR. RAWALD: Right. So, knowing

18 the caveats now about the downstream

19 requirements that will be going on during the

20 pendency of appeal, is everyone okay with a

21 30-day notice and the 45 days to make the

22 decision? Does that all seem reasonable now,
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1 given what we have narrowed the scope to be of

2 what you can't do with someone who is in

3 appealing status?

4 And I can tell you all, we are

5 making our best effort to make the independent

6 Hearings and Appeal Office be the body to do

7 this. I feel like they are onboard.

8 Since it looks like we are going

9 to have a future meeting, we could wait until

10 the next meeting to finalize this slide, if

11 you would like. But I feel like we are going

12 to get there.

13 MS. SHEPHERD: And just to

14 clarify, the three business days, would that

15 apply to this, and then, there would be -- so,

16 do you know what I'm saying? Like you have

17 three days to stop to make sure you're not

18 selling them any 13 SEER?

19 MR. RAWALD: Uh-hum, right. And

20 that is what I am going to go back and ask

21 for.

22 MS. SHEPHERD: And then, the other
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1 one, would it be for the -- okay.

2 MR. RAWALD: Okay. So, really,

3 the only thing we have to figure out in this

4 is what we are doing, who is deciding the

5 appeal. So, if people want to wait to vote

6 until after that has been decided, I can

7 understand that. Hopefully, I will have an

8 answer for you at a future meeting, if we have

9 a future meeting. So, we can do that, if that

10 is what people are comfortable with.

11 MR. EISNER: Do you want to vote

12 on this or do you want to wait? Anybody want

13 to wait? Nobody wants to wait. So, we want

14 to vote on this now?

15 MS. MEYERS: I think, just from my

16 viewpoint, it is the issue that Jordan raised

17 earlier. I just think it needs to be

18 consistent.

19 MR. RAWALD: That's a guarantee. 

20 That's an absolute guarantee. We are not

21 going to develop multiple processes. That is

22 too difficult for us, Karen. I mean, we are
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1 going to find one way and we are going to do

2 it that way all the time.

3 MR. EISNER: So, we are ready to

4 vote on this. Does anybody object to slide

5 No. 25 as it currently exists on the screen?

6 (No response.)

7 No objections. We'll treat this

8 as unanimous.

9 Slide 26 we already agreed to. We

10 changed it to 30 days.

11 Slide 28 we were going to vote

12 after lunch.

13 MR. RAWALD: Right. And so, the

14 reason why we didn't vote on that was because

15 I had said I am going to have to abstain. I

16 checked in with people, and I am still being

17 advised that I should abstain, just because

18 the Department shouldn't be in a position of

19 advising FTC on making a change to the Energy

20 Guide Label at this point.

21 So, we are not opposed. I want to

22 make it clear we are not opposed. I just
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1 don't feel it is appropriate from a government

2 jurisdictional issue to do that. So, I think

3 the ASRAC will forward the recommendation of

4 the group with the FTC tag as put together by

5 AHRI.

6 And we don't want it necessarily

7 to be noted that we abstained or who

8 abstained, but it won't be noted at all. Just

9 for purposes of our voting here, I am being

10 told that I should abstain. So, that is what

11 I am going to do.

12 MR. DORIA: So, this is Jordan.

13 An item we just got for this was

14 the voluntary label, which took an interesting

15 turn.

16 MR. RAWALD: Yes, next slide,

17 though.

18 MR. DORIA: No, no, I understand,

19 but I guess, from my perspective, if what we

20 are saying is FTC is the body that has

21 jurisdiction over all the labeling, and some,

22 like myself, are in agreement that we think
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1 this label should be mandatory, I guess my

2 point on is what we vote on here or what we

3 bring to FTC might be broader than just this.

4 It might actually be the piece that we have

5 been calling the voluntary label, the regional

6 label.

7 MR. RAWALD: Uh-hum.

8 MR. DORIA: So, that is why I

9 bring it up now.

10 MR. RAWALD: Right. But I view

11 that as two separate things. But everyone

12 could agree to at least bring this to FTC, and

13 then, we could hash it out later on with

14 everyone more.

15 MR. AMRANE: Doug, this is Karim.

16 How are you going to bring this to

17 FTC? As part of a report from this group or --

18 MR. RAWALD: Right. They are

19 going to get the report from ASRAC, and it is

20 going to say, hey, this what we think you

21 should do.

22 MR. AMRANE: Okay.
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1 MR. RAWALD: And I have heard from

2 Hampton that, if it makes sense from what they

3 are trying to do, then he will view it very

4 favorably. I mean, they don't want the label

5 to be confusing. They want to make it simple. 

6 They want to make sure it works with what we

7 are doing here. So, I have every reason to

8 believe they are going to view it favorably.

9 MR. EISNER: Would they do this

10 part of the process when they agree to the --

11 I'm sorry. When ASRAC agrees with the report

12 that this Committee sent forward, and they,

13 then, submit it to the Secretary. Would they

14 also submit it to the FTC at the same time?

15 MR. RAWALD: I can't say how the

16 process is going to play out. I could tell you

17 how the information is going to get to the

18 worker bees at FTC. How the actual report will

19 be delivered by ASRAC, I just don't have any

20 information on. So, I will have to find that

21 out.

22 MR. EISNER: Karen, did you have
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1 something?

2 MS. MEYERS: That was just my

3 question. Is the ASRAC report enough to

4 actually officially initiate a rulemaking at

5 FTC? I don't know if you know the answer to

6 that.

7 MR. RAWALD: I will have to ask

8 Hampton to know what he is going to need. I

9 presume that is going to be initiated by them,

10 based upon information provided by us. But I

11 don't know what the formal trigger will be.

12 All administrative agencies are

13 required to entertain requests for rulemaking. 

14 So, I think they will view that in that way

15 under the Administrative Procedures Act, which

16 is this is a formal request for rulemaking,

17 and they will go from there. So, I think that

18 is how it will work, but I can't say for sure

19 exactly where it will be. But they will get

20 there.

21 MR. EISNER: Harvey?

22 MR. DORIA: So, this is Jordan.
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1 I was just going to say one more

2 time, I mean, we, as an industry, have already

3 gone through before with FTC where we said one

4 thing. Not too long thereafter, we went to

5 them with something else, and it was not well

6 received.

7 So, I would just say that if we

8 are -- I am not against this, but we need to

9 just be very clear with them at the outset, I

10 think, about what we want, and then, we can't

11 have additions, modifications, changes. We

12 need to be very clear, ask them for it once,

13 and move on. So, I am not going to hold this

14 up, but I think, just as a group, we need to

15 make sure that we do that.

16 MR. RAWALD: Right. I mean, part

17 of the problem I think that we are currently

18 in is that FTC received comment recommending

19 they do one thing, and they received feedback

20 that they wanted something else. So, that is

21 hard because you go through a lot of effort.

22 The FTC is a lot harder, though,
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1 because they have a Commission. They don't

2 have a Secretary. So, they have a lot more

3 people to deal with and to please. And so,

4 rulemaking is even more difficult for them

5 than it would be for us.

6 And so, trying to get all that

7 through is complicated. And so, I think that

8 it is hard for them to reverse gears when that

9 happens. So, just keep that in mind.

10 But, if everyone is happy with

11 what Karim has shown, which everyone seems to

12 be, then that seems to be the way to go.

13 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey.

14 It just occurs to me that there is

15 a much broader constituency involved here than

16 those around the table. I think in terms of

17 the specific consumer advocates like Charlie

18 Harak, in particular; just as an example,

19 Consumer Federation of Americans, and so on.

20 I think we would entertain the

21 thought of beating the bushes if there was the

22 idea that an independent petition, a petition
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1 independent of the ASRAC needed to be done to

2 help reinforce the case.

3 MR. RAWALD: Right. Because,

4 Harvey, I think you had come before with the

5 idea of a direct final rule possibly. And FTC

6 I am sure would not entertain that without a

7 more broad-based coalition than simply those

8 people here. So, I think that would be

9 necessary if you wanted them to consider doing

10 that, to be more expedient in adopting

11 something.

12 MR. SACHS: I would certainly want

13 to consult back.

14 MR. RAWALD: Right.

15 MR. SACHS: So, I don't want to

16 make that as a promise.

17 MR. RAWALD: Right.

18 MR. SACHS: But it is something

19 that I think -- and I am looking at my peers

20 around the table -- that we would certainly be

21 willing to bring up in our caucus, in our

22 broader caucus.
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1 MR. EISNER: Okay. Anything else

2 on the Energy Guide Label?

3 (No response.)

4 All right, with one abstention,

5 are there any objections in the rest of the

6 group to calling this unanimous, plus one

7 abstention from DOE?

8 (No response.)

9 Okay, hearing no objection, put it

10 down as unanimous.

11 That brings us to slide No. 29,

12 manufacturers' voluntary label. And we have

13 already talked about this also, going to FTC

14 to see if they could require it, the

15 recommendation from this group.

16 MR. RAWALD: Right. And so, Karim

17 put forward the fact that he was against that,

18 and I think some folks were onboard with him,

19 being against that. Jordan has said that he

20 might not agree with Karim's approach. So, I

21 guess we want to ferret out that argument a

22 little bit more.
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1 MR. EISNER: Any discussion?

2 MR. ROY: Aniruddh Roy with

3 Goodman.

4 In the second bullet, can we just

5 add "Southeast" and "Southwest," just for

6 clarity? Or like two sub-bullets maybe?

7 MR. RAWALD: That's fine. Yes,

8 that's fine.

9 MR. ROY: And also, I don't think

10 as a group we have discussed the timeline in

11 terms of when this will be implemented,

12 because for us it is going to be difficult to

13 implement by January 1st, 2015. We would need

14 at least six months.

15 MR. RAWALD: So, I guess it is up

16 to the rest of the manufacturers; I mean, how

17 do you feel about that? And six months from

18 when? From today or from what?

19 MR. ROY: From the time I believe

20 the official guidance on 14 CFR -- if we

21 consider what is in the slides as official

22 guidance as of today, then we would need until
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1 April, essentially.

2 MR. RAWALD: Okay.

3 MR. ROY: As soon as we vote on

4 this.

5 MR. RAWALD: I personally prefer

6 you view this slide as official guidance

7 because I can't guarantee you when else that

8 thing would be. And I think that it would be

9 good to get started on this label because we

10 are not going to change our tact on that.

11 Waiting on this rule to take place

12 will not be a good idea because it could take

13 a little longer than we want, especially for

14 six months. So, I would ask that you at

15 least, for purposes of deeming when you start

16 doing this, you deem what we said yesterday as

17 the official guidance, given the fact that we

18 voted on it and everyone agreed to it. This

19 group has come to an accord on it. We are

20 going to do that. But that is my preference,

21 knowing that I am still pushing to get that 14

22 SEER guidance out to you guys at some time in
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1 the near future.

2 MR. EISNER: Do we want to put a

3 timeline in here, since it is a voluntary

4 requirement?

5 MR. AMRANE: So, this is Karim.

6 Can we put a date, like -- I don't

7 know -- April?

8 MS. MEYERS: Maybe we should

9 caucus.

10 MR. AMRANE: Maybe we should

11 caucus on this.

12 MR. RAWALD: Okay.

13 (Whereupon, the foregoing matter

14 went off the record at 3:49 p.m. and went back

15 on the record at 3:58 p.m.)

16 MR. EISNER: Let's go.

17 We caucused. What did we decide?

18 MS. SHEPHERD: March 1st, 2015.

19 MR. EISNER: Okay.

20 MR. ROCKY: So, again, just to

21 clarify, the manufacturers agreed that this

22 should give us sufficient time to go back to
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1 our manufacturing and engineering groups to

2 discuss how this is going to be implemented. 

3 Some will have the ability to do this easily,

4 and some will have to do some work. But the

5 group came together and said, as a group, we

6 would look at this.

7 And then, Karim, we are discussing

8 this as part of the certification program,

9 that that would be the required date or the

10 target date for the change of the

11 certification program as well, for those

12 members and participants that are not part of

13 this ASRAC Committee.

14 So, it gives us a consistent

15 target date.

16 Do we want that in the rule? The

17 answer from Karim is that it is acceptable to

18 put that in the --

19 MR. RAWALD: Right. So, in the

20 preamble we will discuss that AHRI has

21 indicated that that would be the target date

22 for them. By the time the final rule comes
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1 out, they may be well past. So, we will,

2 hopefully, not have that happen, but we will

3 see.

4 So, okay, great.

5 MR. EISNER: Okay.

6 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey.

7 And I really do just want to say

8 thank you for that. I think it is really

9 helpful.

10 MR. EISNER: Okay. So, vote on

11 this. Does anybody object?

12 MR. BALLO: This is Tim.

13 It is not that I object. I just

14 want to be clear that, from the efficiency

15 advocates' perspective -- and I can't speak

16 for everybody -- but I think I would still

17 want to reserve the right at least to put the

18 issue to FTC to make this a requirement. I

19 realize that the whole group won't go there,

20 but I just want to be clear that, by voting

21 for this slide, I am not foreclosing the

22 possibility that I would --
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1 MR. RAWALD: Yes, I think we can

2 all agree to that. Nothing here is stopping

3 you from doing what you are legally entitled

4 to do as a citizen of the United States to

5 apply to the agency.

6 (Laughter.)

7 So, I don't think anyone would

8 forestall you on that. Okay.

9 MR. FENSTROM: So, this is Gary

10 for the California IOUs.

11 I agree with Tim. And the AHRI

12 certification requirement is great for this

13 particular measure, but I still think it needs

14 to have regulatory authority behind it to make

15 sure that somebody in the market doesn't see

16 that as an opportunity to misrepresent their

17 product and not comply with the agreement.

18 MR. EISNER: Okay. With that

19 said, anybody else want to add anything?

20 (No response.)

21 Are there any objections to

22 unanimously adopting this?
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1 (No response.)

2 Okay. We will treat it as

3 unanimous.

4 Okay, that brings us up to the

5 last two slides. Thirty-one, manufacturer

6 liability.

7 MR. RAWALD: Right. So, on 31, we

8 have two pending issues. We have the Amy9 Shepherd-led coalition to narrow the term of

10 product, and then, we have the Doug promise to

11 go back to DOE and obtain three business days

12 before such time as manufacturers would be

13 liable for sales of products that are rated

14 below 14 SEER to someone who is found to be a

15 routine violator and is currently appealing

16 their finding. Okay?

17 MR. DORIA: Yes, this is Jordan.

18 One thing I just want to bring up,

19 just because I mentioned it before, is this

20 issue of receipt by whom of the information. 

21 I don't see any reason why we can't vote on

22 it. I might just go back and ask our
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1 attorneys if they have any issues or not.

2 And the reason I say I think we

3 can vote on it, I think we could vote on what

4 is there, and then, maybe reconsider further

5 clarification of receipt by whom is necessary. 

6 That would be my thought.

7 MS. SHEPHERD: Receipt by -- can

8 you just clarify that issue? Receipt of what

9 by whom?

10 MR. RAWALD: Who in the company

11 would receive knowledge.

12 MR. DORIA: Receipt of knowledge,

13 that very last line.

14 MS. SHEPHERD: Uh-hum.

15 MR. DORIA: So, receipt,

16 acknowledge, like, you know, it is the

17 question of by whom.

18 MS. SHEPHERD: Oh, whether you

19 need more definition about that or something?

20 MR. DORIA: Well, the question is

21 receipt by whom within our company, right?

22 MS. SHEPHERD: Oh, yes, yes, yes.
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1 MR. DORIA: Yes.

2 MR. EISNER: Well, is there any

3 disagreement on who that should be? I mean,

4 someone had talked earlier about the person

5 would be the official receiver of the

6 subpoena, or something like that.

7 MR. ROCKY: So, Neil, this is

8 Bryan.

9 So, the discussion gets to be, as

10 a matter of routine business in dealing with

11 our distribution partners, our contractors,

12 our suppliers of components, everyday

13 occurrence is someone says, "I reported that

14 to the factory." And that can be a

15 salesperson, a customer service person, a

16 technical support person, a product manager,

17 a manager, the president of the company, and

18 anybody in between who will answer a phone

19 call or pick up an email.

20 So, there are cases where, if a

21 message comes in to the CEO of the company,

22 that will generally generate rather quick
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1 action to somebody. If it comes in to a

2 salesperson or a service person, then it can

3 take some time to get to the right person,

4 especially in a company the size of some of

5 these represented here.

6 MR. EISNER: Do we want to add

7 anything to the rule saying to whom it should

8 be submitted?

9 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim.

10 That is the question. I mean,

11 today all manufacturers submit a certification

12 report to DOE, and there is a contact name on

13 those reports. Would it be appropriate -- no?

14 It is the same. I think

15 manufacturers on their own, they have to sign

16 this. I believe so. And that is how DOE gets

17 the contact information in case of non18 compliance.

19 MR. ROCKY: Not to argue that

20 point, but I'll tell you what. I have had

21 several instances in the last four weeks where

22 the EPA or the Department of Energy or ENERGY
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1 STAR or somebody who has a contact list still

2 sent the information to the wrong person,

3 where I got commercial information requests,

4 and the residential requests went to somebody

5 else who didn't even know they should have

6 come to me.

7 So, as part of the rule, I am not

8 sure that -- I don't know how to say there

9 should be a specific contact. The contact

10 points on record for manufacturers is pretty

11 straightforward, if that is what we want to

12 proceed.

13 But there has got to be some

14 allowance on that. Whether or not the law

15 specifically, the rule says this is going to

16 be sent to an individual by title, not by

17 person/name, that is something that can be

18 considered by the Department. But there has

19 got to be some time to properly route the

20 request information.

21 MR. EISNER: What would you put in

22 the rule? I mean, that is what I am having a
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1 little problem with. If you want it to be

2 sent by the Department, for example, to a

3 particular party by title --

4 MR. RAWALD: That's not the

5 question. That's not the question. The

6 question is who at the company, knowing the

7 item, will, then, have the 15 days' trigger? 

8 So, at what point in the bureaucracy that

9 these companies have is DOE going to view it

10 as, okay, that is the person; they have

11 knowledge. Now the company is on notice.

12 Is it going to be the lowest

13 worker bee? Is it going to be someone up in

14 the middle range? Is it going to be the

15 highest levels? And that is going to trigger

16 the 15 days by which they have to, then, give

17 us notice. Then, we could then, say, "Okay,

18 you guys have reported within a time period. 

19 All of your sales, then, aren't a problem."

20 So, Jordan wants to go back and

21 talk to his lawyers and kind of get an idea of

22 who they should identify, who will be the
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1 right level.

2 I am going to need to confer with

3 the Department really to kind of figure out

4 what the best way for us to view that would

5 be.

6 So, I think it is a complicated

7 notion, given the variability of corporate law

8 and these kinds of things that I am very not

9 astute in, to make sure that we have

10 identified the appropriate person as being the

11 person that, then, the corporation has

12 knowledge.

13 MR. EISNER: All right. Does

14 anybody else have any comments or thoughts?

15 (No response.)

16 But you had been suggesting that

17 we could vote on parts of this. Do you still

18 think that or do you want to wait until we

19 work out these issues?

20 MS. MEYERS: Jordan, would you

21 have a problem if we waited on voting on this

22 slide? There's a lot of pending things.
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1 MR. RAWALD: No, I think we should

2 wait on this slide.

3 MR. DORIA: That's fine.

4 MR. RAWALD: I think we should

5 wait.

6 MR. EISNER: Okay. The last

7 slide, product determined non-compliant.

8 MR. RAWALD: And this is the issue

9 that I have explained, hopefully, several

10 times to people's satisfaction, but I do want

11 to take more, as I explained.

12 So, it is looking at the outdoor

13 unit responsibilities, which we have talked

14 about a lot, but also the fact there are some

15 indoor unit folks who have responsibilities. 

16 If it is their combination that they certified

17 that causes the failure, it is not going to be

18 on the outdoor unit manufacturer. It is going

19 to be on the indoor unit manufacturer to make

20 sure that they are responsible for all the

21 ones that end up in the South that shouldn't

22 have been there. And so, that is what we are
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1 talking about here.

2 And then, the method of minimizing

3 reliability by figuring out, hey, what's out

4 there, and what you don't figure out what's

5 out there, then you go and pay for. That is

6 kind of the balance we are striking here.

7 MR. EISNER: Any comments?

8 (No response.)

9 Are we ready to vote on this?

10 Any objections to this being

11 unanimous?

12 (No response.)

13 Hearing none, put this one down as

14 unanimous.

15 Now it is not quite quarter after. 

16 We said at quarter after we would talk about

17 the next meeting. Right now, it is scheduled

18 for the 15th and the 16th.

19 MR. RAWALD: Laura, can you let us

20 know which slides are left still open?

21 MR. EISNER: We have a couple we

22 have approved, probably about four or five.
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1 MR. RAWALD: Okay, so that's three

2 more slides that we have to agree to. And

3 some of them require homework, so we can't

4 agree to them today. So, we certainly have to

5 come back or have some sort of further

6 meeting. So, the question is, do we need two

7 days? Do we want to have two days just in

8 case? Do we want to require it in person? Do

9 we want to have it on the phone? Do we want

10 to have it on email? I guess we have all

11 these options on the table.

12 How do people feel about coming

13 back? Obviously, I will do whatever the group

14 wants.

15 MR. EISNER: Let me ask also, does

16 anyone who is in the room now have any other

17 issues or essentially the equivalent of any

18 more slides they would want to add for

19 discussion and vote? Or is this it, where we

20 have covered all the issues everybody feels we

21 should discuss?

22 MR. BALLO: So, this is Tim.
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1 You know, we have talked about the

2 issue of prohibited acts for parties other

3 than manufacturers. I don't think we need to

4 take that to a vote. I think we could just

5 agree to disagree, but I just think that

6 probably should be noted somewhere.

7 MR. DORIA: Tim, this is Jordan.

8 That makes sense. And I guess I

9 would just ask -- and if you are not prepared

10 to answer or simply don't want to answer, you

11 can -- but I would certainly want to know what

12 are maybe those specific other things that you

13 and maybe others would ultimately be saying? 

14 What are the specific prohibited acts you want

15 that you think we may not get agreement on?

16 MR. RAWALD: So, this is Doug.

17 And I think what we have heard is

18 the prohibited acts would be the three

19 violations as we have described them plus the

20 failure to provide records when requested. 

21 Those are the four prohibited acts that I have

22 heard from the advocates, I think, to date,
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1 that they would want to at least have

2 conversation about and possibly would want the

3 Department to have the ability to charge civil

4 penalties for.

5 MR. BALLO: Yes, I think that's

6 right.

7 MR. FENSTROM: This is Gary.

8 So, the California IOUs agree with

9 Tim on this point. We would like to see some

10 degree of symmetry around prohibited acts.

11 And we acknowledge that there was

12 a settlement agreement, but we are not sure it

13 was written in such a way as to completely

14 cover every aspect of what might be considered

15 prohibited at the distributor level.

16 MR. EISNER: And the last time we

17 discussed this, as I recall, Gary, you said

18 you were open to alternatives that will

19 provide you with the objectives you have, even

20 if it is not through a prohibited act.

21 MR. FENSTROM: Yes, and that

22 continues to be the case. But I haven't heard
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1 satisfactory alternatives yet.

2 MR. RAWALD: So, I guess, just

3 because we do want to get scheduling done

4 before Bryan leaves, what we have are our

5 three slides with open issues that are going

6 to have to be discussed before the next

7 meeting.

8 We have the discussion of

9 prohibited acts, which probably won't take

10 much time if the advocates decide that they

11 are going to maintain the position they are

12 in, but we want to at least give them the

13 opportunity to bring it up again, if they want

14 to. Because I don't want to foreclose that

15 discussion, and I think it is fair to you guys

16 to do that.

17 Is there anything else you would

18 want to have on the table or is that going to

19 be the sum total of what we have left? And if

20 that is, is that a one-day meeting? Do we

21 want to have two days just in case? How do

22 people feel at the moment about what we are
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1 going to do next?

2 MR. ROCKY: Doug, this is Bryan.

3 I would like the chance to go back

4 and review all of my notes and discussion

5 items to make sure that something of substance

6 hasn't been overlooked or has all been

7 covered, as we have discussed.

8 I have already made my plane

9 tickets and travel plans. I'm coming here for

10 two days, but that can be changed. It is a

11 lot easier to cancel a trip than it is to make

12 another one in my organization.

13 In general, I think we probably

14 have a one-day meeting or less than a day, but

15 I think it is critical that we do it in person

16 face-to-face.

17 And the intent would be to review

18 my material, my questions, and submit that

19 back to the group within the next couple days,

20 working days. So that people could

21 disseminate the information, and if anybody

22 else had things to discuss as well. So, we
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1 have time to prepare.

2 MR. DORIA: This is Jordan.

3 Just a question. I am inclined to

4 think one day will be done as well. But one

5 thing I am not sure about, the process of

6 creating and, then, reviewing the term sheet

7 and sort of having that final vote, and how

8 that would work, and if that needs to be done

9 in person.

10 MR. EISNER: What I would suggest

11 is the changes are being made. I am sure

12 these can be circulated in the next day or

13 two, because she has been typing as we go

14 along. So, that is available to all of you. 

15 You can use it for talking with people.

16 I would like to throw out the idea

17 that Tim and others who join him can develop

18 a one-page slide or multiple pages, if they

19 want to come up with alternatives to things

20 they would like to see in prohibited acts.

21 I would strongly suggest that, if

22 possible, that could be circulated to the
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1 whole group, so people can look at it before

2 we come back together, and see if we can get

3 unanimity on this issue by changing a few

4 words or adding a few words to that slide,

5 rather than going in with the assumption we

6 can't get any agreement on it, and we are just

7 simply going to take a vote. That might

8 result in the one issue so far that would have

9 a negative vote. So, if it can be resolved,

10 let's try to do it efficiently, if we can.

11 MR. BALLO: Yes, my thinking on

12 why we wouldn't want to do that is -- and

13 maybe I'm being ridiculous -- but it could be,

14 I just didn't want to make an awkward

15 situation where manufacturers are forced to

16 take a position, you know, that could impact

17 someone they sell to. So, to me, it seems

18 like we are not going to reach unanimity on

19 that point. I don't know whether it is

20 something that really needs to come to a vote. 

21 It can just be noted separately. But if

22 people want to have a vote on it, that's fine.
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1 MR. RAWALD: Perhaps, Tim, you

2 could put forward language that you want to

3 have in the report, and then, we could say,

4 okay, we can all agree that that is

5 appropriate, given the fact that there doesn't

6 seem to be a large enough voting block to add

7 the prohibited acts at this point, as far as

8 I could tell. So, I guess that is what we are

9 sensing here.

10 So, perhaps that would be a good

11 way to go. You could put forward, well, this

12 is what I want to have in the report. And we

13 could all say, "Yes, we agree with that. That

14 makes sense. That captures the position of

15 the group," which is that the advocates would

16 like to have this, but we understand that

17 there is a substantial number of the members

18 who are not interested in this. And so, while

19 we would think it would be better for the

20 Department to have it, we understand that it

21 won't be a result of this particular rule,

22 enforcement, and we certainly reserve the
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1 right to a Noticeandf Comment rulemaking to

2 note that we wish the Department would think

3 about this. So, something like that, I guess.

4 Okay. Is there anything else

5 anyone else would see bringing up besides the

6 Bryan Rocky stuff?

7 (No response.)

8 So, it seems like we need, we are

9 going to have two days. Is everyone okay with

10 just saying let's be back on the 15th at nine

11 o'clock, and we will go forward from there?

12 MS. MEYERS: One day or two? One

13 day or two days? Did we decide that?

14 MR. EISNER: We have two days

15 scheduled, but the anticipation of the group

16 is that we can do it, the few people who have

17 spoken on it, in one day. So, we can leave

18 early, unless you have other business you want

19 to bring up with DOE privately while you are

20 here.

21 We might get it done the first

22 day, but we might not, especially depending on
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1 what you learn in between the meetings about

2 the willingness of the people you are talking

3 to to go along with what they have heard or if

4 we need more information or discussion.

5 I think we want to be prepared

6 because we have got an end-of-October date --

7 MS. MEYERS: Okay.

8 MR. EISNER: -- to have two days,

9 if we can get it.

10 The meeting, actually, for the

11 15th and the 16th shows that we are meeting in

12 room 4A-104. Is that in the basement?

13 MR. RAWALD: That's on the fourth

14 floor. And I will ask again if we can meet up

15 here. That was my preference, and I will re16 engage because these reservations get changed

17 over time. But that is where we are coming

18 here.

19 MR. McCRUDDEN: So this is Charlie

20 with ACCA.

21 Can we still take a crack at that

22 trifold? Is that still out there?
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1 MR. RAWALD: I mean, I could ask

2 to bring it back at the next meeting.

3 MR. McCRUDDEN: Okay.

4 MR. RAWALD: I can. It is just,

5 you know, there are a lot of approvals that

6 take place for these kinds of things. So, I

7 am kind of trying to get that geared up.

8 MR. McCRUDDEN: Okay.

9 MR. RAWALD: So, the more I bring

10 it back -- but I will ask the question and try

11 to bring it back at the next meeting.

12 MR. EISNER: Doug, just to be

13 clear, because the numbering system seems to

14 be different for the eighth floor, is this on

15 this part of the building or is this in

16 another part of the building, a different

17 elevator bank or something?

18 MR. RAWALD: I would have to look

19 at the room number.

20 MR. EISNER: It's 4A.

21 MR. RAWALD: It is in the front

22 building.
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1 MR. EISNER: It is this building?

2 MR. RAWALD: No, it is in the

3 first building. It is in the front building.

4 MR. EISNER: I'm not sure what

5 that means.

6 MR. RAWALD: So, when you walk in,

7 you go straight up the elevator in that

8 building, as opposed to coming across the

9 bridge to this building.

10 MR. EISNER: Across the bridge?

11 MR. RAWALD: Uh-hum, so you stay

12 in that building.

13 Oh, we're going to switch it? 

14 Okay. So, the meeting is switched. You guys

15 will be told when you get here and get your

16 badge where to go. So, don't worry about it. 

17 I mean, you're going to find the right place. 

18 And if you don't, then we will vote without

19 you.

20 (Laughter.)

21 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim.

22 Can we get a copy of the slides as
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1 soon as possible?

2 MR. RAWALD: No, absolutely. So,

3 we will email the slides out tonight, the

4 slides as currently dictated with the vote and

5 everything else. And everybody has to bring

6 it back to their various constituents, so they

7 can go over it while we are gone.

8 MR. EISNER: Now we should talk

9 very briefly about the way this report gets

10 submitted to ASRAC. The slides that have been

11 up here, and after everybody agrees to them,

12 is what I would anticipate would be sent to

13 ASRAC. We would say, "This is what we agreed

14 to."

15 If there is anything else, we can

16 discuss it now, if you would like, or we could

17 talk about it next week. If there is anything

18 else you would like to have in a cover memo to

19 ASRAC when we submit these slides, be prepared

20 to talk about that or submit some language

21 that you would like to see in that report.

22 Okay. And that would include, Tim
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1 and others, some language you might want in

2 there about your feelings on this issue about

3 prohibited acts and why you did what you did

4 or voted the way you did, that you would like

5 explained to ASRAC. Or, alternatively, also,

6 that you would like to be in the preamble to

7 the rule explaining why there were negative

8 votes on this.

9 Okay. Do we want to talk some

10 more? I know you've got to leave, but the

11 rest of you have got 40 minutes left, if you

12 want to talk about any other issues, any other

13 things that you want to go back and talk

14 about. Or do you want to go home and sleep?

15 MR. RAWALD: Right.

16 MR. EISNER: No, not you; I'm

17 talking about everybody else.

18 (Laughter.)

19 Let's consider the meeting

20 adjourned.

21 (Whereupon, at 4:21 p.m., the

22 meeting was adjourned.)
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A

$200 146:3 171:4 238:2

$5,000 8:8

A-F-T-E-R-N-O-O-N

175:18

a-half 224:19

a-vis 269:8

a.m 1:14 3:2 5:11,12

66:22 67:1 287:22

AB34578 16:16

ABC 18:9

abiding 32:8

ability 25:16 49:20

76:14 77:16 111:7

260:2 271:11,19

307:3 321:3

able 7:3 12:10 28:14

42:3 76:8 89:9 96:1

118:10 131:20 137:3

137:11 167:5 172:20

217:11 236:17 256:12

277:1 279:7 292:5

absent 86:14

absolute 199:2 294:20

absolutely 24:4 223:9

331:2

abstain 119:18 295:15

295:17 296:10

abstained 296:7,8

abstaining 115:21

abstention 177:8 303:4

303:7

ACCA 45:7 73:17 87:9

107:2 128:11 225:18

230:7 243:7 328:20

accelerate 87:22 88:2

accelerated 81:18

86:12

accept 7:19 72:3

102:15 116:16 135:15

135:22 140:16 195:22

acceptable 124:9 209:1

217:20 276:10 307:17

accepting 120:14

152:11 219:16

access 137:3

accomplish 92:22

accord 305:19

accountability 59:11

accusation 187:22

achieve 179:8 181:11

193:16 197:20 207:11

207:12

achieved 181:12

acknowledge 311:16

321:11

act 82:14 117:11 149:8

170:20 171:15 176:21

266:10 268:4 269:3

288:3,15 291:8

299:15 321:20

acting 139:21

action 43:22 79:19 82:9

147:13 198:5 241:12

245:6,20 257:20

258:3,12 259:3

262:21 267:12 269:7

270:3 271:15 313:1

actionable 196:17

actions 100:10 146:7,9

193:9 257:22 258:5

267:19 269:14 285:7

287:13

activities 82:19 285:15

activity 69:5 85:9

115:19 119:15 267:2

285:22

actor 286:16

acts 166:7,17 167:5

268:6 270:7 320:2,14

320:18,21 321:10

322:9 324:20 326:7

332:3

actual 9:22 11:21 12:22

73:13 280:18 298:18

actuality 227:2

add 50:21 130:11,20

131:1,1 143:12

186:10 222:10 304:5

309:19 313:6 319:18

326:6

added 119:12 125:10

143:10 199:14

adding 22:4 125:12,19

129:13 134:11 155:7

186:17,18 325:4

addition 127:11

additional 25:6 121:20

125:19 129:14 133:8

186:9

additions 300:11

address 11:8 43:15

80:15 133:5 144:15

155:20 183:21 222:15

222:19

addressed 244:11

addresses 133:18

addressing 121:6

adds 186:14

adjourned 332:20,22

adjudicator 106:2

adjust 248:6

administrative 75:16

105:6,10 299:12,15

administratively 110:7

adopt 7:1 114:15

adopted 36:7 66:16

72:14 74:19,22

112:14 148:17

adopting 68:3 302:10

309:22

advertise 97:4

advice 253:8 263:6

advised 153:13 295:17

advising 295:19

advocate 195:8 215:5

217:22

advocated 276:15

advocates 58:5 59:1

114:8 120:10,13

122:4 176:20 301:17

308:15 320:22 322:10

326:15

advocating 182:17

affect 101:10 273:16

274:3,10

affiliated 169:19

afraid 279:14

afternoon 82:17

agencies 299:12

agency 41:19 69:17

271:19 309:5

aggressive 81:19,22

82:1 83:16 103:2

ago 228:18 240:4

agree 11:17 34:21 63:2

103:6 106:19 120:19

130:12 133:6 139:3,7

139:7 142:22 143:6,9

145:4 185:15 186:2

192:10 194:11 208:11

210:1 220:7 233:12

247:1,4,6 252:13

280:6 292:5 297:12

298:10 303:20 309:2

309:11 319:2,4 320:5

321:8 326:4,13

agreed 36:9 113:7

114:1 141:1,2 145:1

147:16 153:12 154:5

154:6 204:2 229:14

244:2 280:5 295:9

305:18 306:21 331:13

agreeing 25:10 151:18

agreement 34:13 176:1

176:5 211:6 215:12

296:22 309:17 320:15

321:12 325:6

agreements 245:8

254:11

agrees 119:3 298:11

331:11

ahead 64:1 118:21

153:8

AHRI 112:21 113:10

114:14 115:5 118:20

119:20 121:2 129:18

130:15 132:11,12,18

144:7 149:12,14,16

149:17,21 150:10

151:11 152:19 153:3

153:13 154:5,21

155:5,6 156:2 174:18

192:8 194:10 203:21

229:5 255:15 296:5

307:20 309:11

AHRI's 128:16 152:11

ain't 114:19

air 1:3 2:6,14 72:7

87:17 94:7 178:10,19

190:22 192:3,12

208:6,13 209:14,17

211:18 214:6 234:15

250:8 266:14 274:5,9

274:11 275:12 281:5

281:7 282:3 283:16

289:13

Air-Conditioning 2:12

2:17

airflow 195:15 202:22

203:2

akin 100:14

Alabama 74:5

Allied 2:14 72:7 290:22

allow 27:17 48:18 87:4

270:15

allowance 314:14

allowance-of-time

286:7

allowed 85:19 284:8

alternative 20:18 58:13

alternatively 19:17

332:5

alternatives 114:18

321:18 322:1 324:19

ambiguous 127:2

ambivalent 108:14

amenable 71:16 272:8

amended 35:22

America 2:7

American 2:11

Americans 301:19

amount 286:12,17

290:7

AMRANE 2:17 113:9,19

118:19 121:1 130:14

132:9 144:7 149:11

153:22 154:17,22

155:3,10 172:8,18

173:1 174:17,22

194:9 255:14 256:15

297:15,22 306:5,10
(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

334

313:9 330:21

Amy 2:12 22:5 29:3

78:21 129:17 150:9

152:14 157:12 172:22

218:15 222:7 252:1

258:15 266:3 267:5

284:14 310:8

Amy's 11:15 257:18

260:17 281:9

analogy 270:7

analysis 72:19

and-dirty 124:13

Aniruddh 2:11 3:22

221:11 279:18 281:14

283:9,18 304:2

annoying 222:8

anomalies 28:5,6,8

answer 4:17 42:3 46:2

133:22 142:4 166:3

197:6 217:1 241:21

252:7 263:1,13 265:5

294:8 299:5 307:17

312:18 320:10,10

answers 93:20 106:16

anticipate 10:10 45:19

331:12

anticipated 273:18

anticipation 327:15

anybody 19:2 35:20

66:15 68:2 72:13

74:18 88:10,12 106:6

106:7 110:19,22

112:4,13 114:4

123:14 125:21 137:19

138:12 139:12 153:19

157:7 210:16 215:21

224:4 225:10 251:13

253:14,21 294:12

295:4 308:11 309:19

312:18 316:14 323:21

anymore 38:8 43:6

49:15 151:20 285:1

289:6

anytime 32:11 111:19

anyway 24:11 25:4

27:13 37:15 73:8

apartment 64:9,11

189:14 204:15

apparently 123:11

appeal 75:2,16 76:1,14

77:7 79:13,20,21,22

80:4,5,20 81:1,14,20

84:1,2,9 85:14,18,22

87:7,16 88:2,7 91:7,8

92:2 98:8,10 99:4

100:12 101:3 157:21

165:12 172:11,14,19

275:5,16,22 292:16

292:20 293:6 294:5

appealed 275:15

appealing 84:7 171:11

275:1,21 293:3

310:15

appeals 75:8 77:14

92:16 98:4,17 99:8,17

101:19 102:4

appear 171:10

appears 20:4

appellate 76:15 100:11

104:4,15,20 172:17

apple 83:11

appliance 99:10

applicability 44:16

applicable 178:9

270:20,21

applications 244:4

applied 175:3 194:14

267:9 271:3

applies 219:13 263:18

266:11

apply 25:13 171:8

182:7 214:3 219:19

268:2 269:22 293:15

309:5

appreciate 127:21

135:17 139:22 212:15

227:11 239:17 276:20

278:22 286:1

approach 13:19 37:15

38:9 41:19 125:22

164:9 183:12 276:21

284:2 303:20

appropriate 67:11

68:21 70:6,22 71:8,18

77:20 78:10 86:14

92:12 93:1 97:4,8,17

116:1 129:11 138:18

162:10 163:4,20

164:1 165:14 173:7

195:5 209:3 215:20

216:7 260:12 296:1

313:13 316:10 326:5

appropriately 57:9

76:20 121:16

approvals 329:5

approve 203:20

approved 104:15 153:7

318:22

approving 35:21

April 305:1 306:7

area 12:14 13:6 33:7

36:19 97:12 219:8

260:9 265:19

areas 24:17 69:22 71:9

92:13 255:2 269:14

argue 202:12 313:19

arguing 208:18

argument 125:4 303:21

arguments 281:16,21

284:5

Arizona 136:14

asked 39:9 78:9 97:3

122:14 123:9 140:7

147:8 165:21 172:22

220:2 235:14 260:8

265:9 266:4 274:22

279:6

asking 7:14 20:12

68:22 105:13 133:20

178:16 179:14 182:22

184:15 188:9,10

190:2 191:7 192:17

212:16 226:14,18

230:1 253:21

asks 99:17

aspect 321:14

ASRAC 296:3 297:19

298:11,19 299:3

302:1 307:13 331:10

331:13,19 332:5

assembled 204:16

association 2:14 35:4

associations 69:18

assume 41:7 47:11

123:12 153:4

assumed 62:19 129:1

assuming 37:5 73:1

119:3 130:7 202:16

277:9

assumption 137:15

141:7 325:5

assurances 148:21

assure 196:11 215:4

assures 243:11

asterisk 128:6

asterisks 127:5 128:5

astute 316:9

attached 103:16

attack 195:5

attention 51:8 282:7

attic 195:18

attorney 90:14 159:6

attorneys 89:4 311:1

audit 24:15 28:1

auditing 28:4

authority 77:16 104:5

104:21 120:21 139:19

139:21 142:13 146:2

146:5,6,11 153:18

154:11 269:7 271:20

291:15 309:14

available 124:5 128:1

137:5 324:14

avenue 1:13 150:13

avenues 161:12

avoid 33:15 49:7

174:15

aware 27:2 36:22 37:9

282:11,20 283:8

awfully 105:15

awkward 32:15 325:14

B

back 3:18 4:9 5:11 6:1

7:9 18:10,17 19:14

21:15 27:7 45:15

49:16 50:18 53:17

56:9 57:2,7,7 60:11

61:5 63:16 67:1,2

70:13 76:5 85:2 92:9

93:16,19,19 103:6,20

109:4,6 111:6,12,17

111:19 120:1,3,6

121:8 122:12,12,15

125:8 129:12 131:12

132:21 137:12 144:5

149:14 156:16 157:9

157:16 158:2 161:5

163:15 164:15 165:18

167:4,14,22 170:4

172:22 173:15,20

175:7,14,17,22

184:20 188:1 198:9

201:6 208:20 212:2

213:19 215:11 216:22

217:17,21 220:3

224:13 225:19 229:3

235:11,16 237:18,19

240:15 241:14 242:5

244:14 247:5 251:8

251:10 252:5 255:6

257:7,17 260:18

266:5,21 267:8

272:14,16 273:1

279:16 281:9,16

282:6 286:11 292:6

292:12 293:20 302:13

306:14,22 310:11,22

315:20 319:5,13

323:3,19 325:2

327:10 329:2,10,11

331:6 332:13

bad 11:20 22:16 40:22

58:19 87:12 97:7

184:8 194:21 244:17

245:15 246:4 258:2

276:4,13,16 286:16

badge 330:16

balance 318:6

BALLO 2:2 52:2,20

58:3 60:6 98:1,15

101:2 115:2 120:17
(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

335

137:21 142:13 152:16

210:18 211:1 308:12

319:22 321:5 325:11

bank 329:17

bankruptcy 59:16

barely 131:13

base 204:22

based 5:20 6:15 10:14

28:4 73:2 101:13

121:4 179:5 180:4

200:1 201:13,15

206:12,13 208:9

213:12 237:13 262:16

269:3 299:10

baseline 271:19

basement 328:12

basic 13:9 36:15 237:18

241:22 267:20,22

268:1 269:15,20

basically 26:7 58:16

61:4 128:14 151:3

159:4 252:13 275:19

278:4

basis 29:15 42:18 88:22

89:12 180:18 184:6

bear 174:9

bears 123:9

beaten 195:22

beating 301:21

bee 315:13

bees 298:18

beginning 92:3 175:22

265:8 267:3

behooves 34:3

belief 5:19 6:11 8:5

15:19 19:7,19 21:20

26:7

believe 43:22 73:5

190:19 192:8 251:21

298:8 304:19 313:16

believed 230:20

believes 144:13

believing 213:6

benefit 143:4,20 215:6

benefits 221:13

best 8:4 29:17 77:21

163:17 179:12 212:18

240:20 272:17 293:5

316:4

better 9:3 37:15 72:2

83:17 86:12 91:11,12

149:7,8 152:10

216:11 326:19

beyond 23:16 61:20

265:3,8 287:8,8

bids 64:14

big 18:21 19:14 30:15

92:10 108:4 162:8

189:17 205:7 206:2

217:22 259:15 287:14

biggest 283:21

bit 7:16 15:12 21:14

91:2 98:5 141:14

147:11 165:11 218:18

243:1,3 255:17

275:11 303:22

black 141:22

blast 68:20

blind 55:12

blithely 202:15

block 326:6

blower 179:4,6 180:9

180:14 181:9 183:4

190:15,21 191:4,21

192:11,13 193:15

199:15 200:3,4,8

204:7,16 206:8,10

207:8 209:15

blower/coil 200:16

board 118:17 121:13

167:10 216:4,15

221:22 266:9 267:10

body 105:14 113:3

293:6 296:20

bond 31:17

books 37:14

boom 65:21 124:17

border 214:18,19

boss 71:22

bosses 157:9 172:7

bother 14:19 19:9

bothers 152:12

bottom 137:16

bought 109:8 145:22

185:3 237:6 246:17

bounce 58:4

boundary 6:6

box 69:9 190:7 192:13

boy 240:4

brains 3:13,14

branch 62:15 168:11

259:16 260:21 261:1

261:15,17 264:1

branches 165:3 259:7

264:1,4 265:20

brand 29:18,19 96:18

97:5,7,16,20 131:21

187:10 264:15,17

brands 29:20

brass 118:2

breadth 271:20

break 60:2 66:19 156:9

215:9 216:22 251:4,6

254:1,9,20

breaking 168:2

breaks 3:15

bridge 330:9,10

briefed 78:2

briefly 331:9

bring 4:5 53:16 57:1,6

64:5 93:16,19 137:12

146:7,8 149:14

156:16 157:9,16

158:2 161:5 170:4

172:7,22 175:7 178:1

202:1,3 215:10

217:21 218:11 252:22

267:19 270:3 272:14

272:16,22 281:15

282:6,6 297:3,9,12,16

302:21 310:18 322:13

327:19 329:2,9,11

331:5

bringing 327:5

brings 68:8 224:9

225:14 287:10 303:11

310:4

broad 214:4,11,13

broad-based 302:7

broader 61:1 157:22

297:3 301:15 302:22

broadly 215:2

brought 51:8 120:9

124:7 126:2 218:3

222:18

Bryan 2:10 60:22 61:22

63:22,22 79:10 80:21

116:3,20 117:22

119:6 120:9 126:1,8

127:9,21 129:4

130:17 131:17 134:6

148:5 157:12 161:8

161:18 172:22 191:19

233:12,14 254:4

263:16 284:21 287:10

312:8 322:4 323:2

327:6

buddy 94:20

building 41:21 329:15

329:16,22 330:1,3,3,8

330:9,12

builds 149:10 264:12

built 213:6 241:19

286:10

bullet 50:19,20 60:7,20

75:14 77:5 80:17

107:13,20,21 112:12

156:1 157:13,15

158:7,8 173:6 210:10

210:10 227:22,22

229:12 281:1 292:3

304:4

bullets 46:5 171:8

210:5 236:7

bunch 115:8 278:11

burden 19:14 23:22

43:17 102:13 186:18

195:3 196:22 205:10

205:16 208:19 221:4

burdened 15:4

burdensome 20:4 28:3

28:10

bureaucracy 72:1

315:8

bureaucratic 77:13

78:12,18 102:6

bureaucratically 78:6

bushes 301:21

business 22:16 23:17

40:15 80:1,5,6 81:14

81:15 82:19 84:22

85:3 86:2,3 88:16,22

92:18 94:4 95:3

108:15 160:17 187:5

213:12 214:16 226:11

262:13,14 279:10,12

279:13,21,22 280:12

280:13,18,21 285:18

285:19 287:9 290:11

290:16,16,18,20

292:7 293:14 310:11

312:10 327:18

businesses 89:7 205:8

busy 43:19

buy 64:12 170:15,16

187:9 205:5 246:10

buying 117:21 170:14

204:13 233:17 278:11

buys 16:9

C

calculator 225:5

calendar 216:10 279:13

279:15 280:16,21

290:12

California 2:4,20 136:7

148:1 309:10 321:8

call 9:19,19 63:22 70:21

71:3 94:18 141:21

162:19 247:5 312:19

called 40:3 41:3 145:22

147:10 151:13 196:8

269:16

calling 191:5 297:5

303:6

calls 40:21 43:18 49:15

90:12

cancel 323:11

canvass 13:6

capacity 115:7,11,15

115:17 120:11,15,22

121:5,6,9,10,14 122:3
(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

336

capacity-neutral

121:13 122:4

captured 32:20 243:10

captures 32:2 209:3

326:14

card 54:17,21

care 54:10 99:10 161:2

199:15 207:7,8

241:17

career 65:17

careful 7:13 94:22

150:11,20 189:4,5

carefully 241:15

Carrier 2:5

carry 29:16

carrying 141:21

cart 83:11

carve 261:15

case 14:18 29:17 37:2,3

37:4,11,17,18,20

40:16 51:1,2 67:18

87:14 100:5 105:3

106:4 107:11 134:10

155:14 182:13 191:11

202:18,20 260:3

285:10 302:2 313:17

319:8 321:22 322:21

cases 7:14 10:9,19

58:21 98:21 100:8

190:20 312:20

catch 21:8

category 31:20

caucus 3:16 4:2,8,15

4:21 227:19 243:1,4

247:1,2,4 248:14

250:22 302:21,22

306:9,11

caucused 306:17

causal 136:8

cause 27:10,12,16

caused 161:6

causes 162:4 317:17

causing 174:5

caveat 67:9 238:13

caveats 292:18

CCMS 178:1 190:5

206:19

central 1:3 87:17 214:5

266:14 274:9,11

275:12 281:5,7 282:3

283:16

centroids 31:10,13

CEO 312:21

certain 47:18 89:4

104:6 130:7 226:16

certainly 30:18 32:18

38:21 43:19 45:1 66:5

71:20 73:10 133:10

187:9 196:12 214:17

302:12,20 319:4

320:11 326:22

certification 149:19

153:7 154:15 236:14

237:5 239:1 270:1

307:8,11 309:12

313:11

certified 149:16 179:9

180:19 181:12 192:20

193:1,12,18 194:3

197:14,18 198:13,15

198:19,20 199:2,13

199:18,21 200:1,5,7

201:11 202:5 206:18

209:6 234:18 236:10

236:13 244:19 317:16

certifies 178:5

certify 152:12 180:22

239:8 270:2,3

cetera 34:18 83:1

CFR 266:5 281:4

304:20

chain 27:5 32:17 34:9

64:13 105:21 117:17

161:11,17 241:5

249:4 250:4

chair 138:9

challenge 105:10

challenged 189:15

chance 114:10 323:3

change 112:12 116:12

116:17,22 118:10,13

118:15 119:2 155:12

155:13 188:4 189:9

214:15 217:12 223:14

241:22 244:12 279:3

283:11 295:19 305:10

307:10

changed 27:21 177:21

185:19 244:18 295:10

323:10 328:16

changes 115:12 116:7

121:3 133:21 211:5

217:7 300:11 324:11

changing 188:19 189:6

325:3

channel 24:21 26:2

characterize 8:5

charge 146:2,12 195:14

284:14 288:13 321:3

CHARLES 2:6,13

Charlie 45:6 67:10

73:16 87:9 107:1

128:11 134:1 201:5

203:21 205:17,20

225:18 230:7 233:15

243:7 301:17 328:19

Charlie's 45:20 188:8

258:7,9

cheaper 185:21

cheated 187:16

check 57:13,14 131:12

177:15

checked 295:16

checklist 8:16

checks 60:1

chime-in 190:13

choice 24:10 66:5

81:11

choose 139:2 221:2

chore 185:4

chose 134:7

Chuck 38:10 39:14 40:3

40:20 54:1 56:12

63:17,20 67:10 90:7

92:19 124:11 125:7

131:15 132:3 157:17

169:1 170:10 183:10

186:21 199:11 201:4

203:11 209:5 224:21

236:5 237:3 243:21

244:15 246:7 262:10

275:3 276:15 278:22

Chuck's 4:17 63:15

183:8 229:20 258:7

circle 13:2 255:5

circulated 114:8 115:5

213:3 324:12,22

circumstances 26:22

citizen 309:4

city 264:2

civil 79:2,6,7 272:4

275:9 321:3

claim 50:15

claims 61:1

clarification 20:20

57:16 64:17 81:1

121:22 144:12 256:16

267:7 286:5 311:5

clarify 55:1 82:4 203:12

210:4 255:16 263:2

293:14 306:21 311:8

clarity 5:16 21:10 210:8

291:1 304:6

CLARK 2:18

class 214:4 267:13,14

267:21 268:15 269:6

269:8 270:16,20,22

271:17 272:3

classes 266:13 267:11

268:14,14 269:5

273:17 274:11 281:10

clean 291:17

clear 10:3 38:13 45:11

51:5 57:5 58:13 60:7

66:8 112:7 139:6

170:16 171:5 175:4

178:14 190:4 191:2,7

192:15 196:21 204:5

217:11 227:5 247:16

248:5 288:16 291:14

295:22 300:9,12

308:14,20 329:13

clearance 100:7,9

cleared 38:21 112:2

172:19

clearly 127:12 141:6

clock 20:7 163:12

close 37:2,3 51:1

195:14 212:3 223:3

closed 37:4,11,14,17

37:19 51:2 55:8 67:18

247:19,21

closes 47:5,7

coalition 302:7 310:9

codependently 29:14

coercive 151:20

coffin 290:14

cogently 167:6

coil 174:3,5,6,8,14

177:20 179:5 184:2

185:13 187:10 189:9

190:7,8,15,15,21,21

191:3,4,5,5,11,22

192:10,11,12 193:15

194:16 195:15 198:18

198:21 199:10,12

201:2 202:20 204:16

206:11,11 208:6,13

209:10,14,15,16

211:18 215:13 234:15

242:14,19,20 244:2,3

244:17,21 245:22

coil-only 180:5 186:11

201:15 208:8

coil/air 210:20 211:2

234:21

coils 185:11 245:3,5,15

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collateral 132:19

collect 272:4

colluding 62:15

collusion 74:1

column 190:16 191:9

combination 186:10

194:3 198:14,15,19

198:21 199:18,21

200:5,7,16 201:11

202:5,16 203:18

205:1 206:18 207:2

209:7 233:18,20

234:17 236:12 238:22

244:7,20 245:18
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246:4 247:14 317:16

combinations 182:6,7

197:19 198:13 204:3

236:22 237:1 244:9

246:12

combined 192:13

come 7:16 14:14 17:22

19:13 21:15 40:14

45:15 54:4 57:7 60:11

61:5 72:21 85:2 89:13

93:19 111:12,16,19

120:6,11 121:18

122:12 123:17 134:22

140:12 144:5 145:12

159:1 162:3 175:14

188:2 189:17 203:2

205:12 213:16 215:21

216:22 218:17 229:16

236:2 244:20 246:13

254:20 265:10 271:5

272:13 275:22 302:4

305:19 314:6 319:5

324:19 325:2,20

comes 48:20 74:2

87:18 89:2 103:20

111:6 121:8,12

173:20 204:16 307:22

312:21 313:1

comfortable 36:4 53:18

53:20 56:4,9,11 67:9

78:13 106:8 114:2

152:6 155:7 240:1

257:9 261:18 265:4

294:10

coming 7:8 9:9 23:18

35:7 46:14 63:16

65:21 74:3 125:8

129:12 140:1 161:22

179:20 216:5 230:19

233:10 273:7 281:9

319:12 323:9 328:17

330:8

comment 77:10 99:18

121:8 122:5 123:15

158:17 213:21 238:19

238:20 239:20 281:1

300:18 327:1

commented 255:3

comments 29:3 45:4,8

60:16 72:8 75:3 115:7

121:7 133:14 137:8

137:20 206:4 316:14

318:7

commerce 288:4

commercial 142:16

146:9 314:3

commission 2:21 82:14

148:1 301:1

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133:13

commitment 35:9

committed 87:12

Committee 116:9,16

118:4 120:12 129:9

141:2 143:12 153:13

154:10 298:12 307:13

Committee's 119:21

committing 103:4

common 64:11 151:15

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134:16

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communication 44:5

community 114:11

companies 155:16

162:8 221:1,14 259:3

262:16 264:16 287:19

315:9

company 2:8,11 11:19

59:17 63:16 70:21,22

71:2,3,14,14 72:1

89:1 99:12 168:21,22

171:21 222:14 247:7

257:21 258:4,8,9,11

258:14,16 259:4,5,8,8

261:11,16,19 262:18

262:18,19 264:5,12

264:19 311:10,21

312:17,21 313:4

315:6,11

company's 131:18

compare 209:4

complain 41:1,12 43:2

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complainer 42:18

complaining 10:17

complaint 10:14,15

15:15 41:5,8 43:21

46:12

complaints 12:4,10,16

15:21 26:14 27:17

42:19

complete 12:2 160:7

206:6 250:3 276:11

completed 108:10

111:20 288:10

completely 38:4 40:2

91:13 321:13

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189:15

complexity 263:4

compliance 149:9

159:6 225:22 226:5,6

226:9,19 269:16

287:22 313:18

compliant 92:20 107:16

178:6 180:20,22

181:7 187:8 188:22

193:3,12 202:8 228:3

228:19 230:13,21,21

231:9 234:18 240:13

248:9 278:3,15

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105:15,16 219:16

265:6 301:7 316:6

comply 33:12 89:9

97:12 275:7 277:22

309:17

complying 91:9 117:21

255:18

component 229:18

components 36:21

124:7 312:12

composite 12:2

compromise 67:20

157:18 275:3 276:22

278:22

computer 124:16

concept 241:20

concern 17:7 25:11

97:6,20 105:21

141:14 143:14 146:14

155:20 161:6 162:5

166:18 180:17 213:5

230:3 232:12 233:1

243:9 268:21 280:19

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67:8 89:6 100:1

127:14 151:8,10

166:22 173:11 178:18

193:6 199:17 239:10

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142:3 157:8

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concluded 87:16

conclusion 272:14

condensers 246:11

condensing 128:2

148:12 149:10 173:19

173:20 180:4,10

181:9 184:13 185:12

187:9 189:2,6 192:16

193:6 194:15 197:14

198:18,21 200:15

218:8 219:20 244:6,9

conditioner 1:3 208:6

274:9,12 281:5

283:16

conditioners 87:18

266:15 274:5 275:13

281:7 282:3

conditioning 2:6

289:13

conditions 195:16

196:3,7

conduct 11:5 22:10,12

22:16 49:10 68:16

74:12

confer 316:2

conferred 215:21 216:3

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confuse 117:16 120:19

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confusion 136:10

226:22

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213:16 253:10

consensus-ish 176:15

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231:19 238:2

consequently 29:20

consider 66:18 261:4

262:12 284:4 302:9

304:21 332:19

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considerations 124:4

261:6

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314:18 321:14

consistent 113:5

121:18 134:16 167:8

167:9 192:2 221:17

266:9,22 272:10

294:18 307:14

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167:18

constraint 99:6 145:21

163:5

constraints 83:9

constructed 151:2

construe 139:2

consult 89:3 302:13

Consulting 2:18

consumer 115:9 127:1

129:22 167:12 222:18

268:9 301:17,19

consumers 134:17

contact 39:4 41:9,19

70:19 99:22 162:10

162:12 313:12,17

314:1,9,9

contacted 37:5,8 38:3,6

41:16

contacting 162:13

contains 172:16

content 88:6 114:13
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context 7:21 53:14

167:11 270:1

continues 321:22

continuing 119:13

contract 15:6 235:3

contractor 12:5,9 13:20

13:20 15:16 24:22

25:14 26:4,14,16

27:15 28:2 29:11,17

30:6,19 32:9 34:8

37:8 39:4,6,8,17

40:14 46:14,15 47:2,3

47:15,17 48:5,12,19

53:1 61:7,8 62:14,15

64:7,18 65:4,6 70:16

70:17 80:2 87:19

92:15 93:8 94:3 95:5

95:7 107:11 161:13

168:20,22 171:10

172:11 181:2,8

189:20,20 198:4

200:3 202:4 222:18

230:10,19 231:3

232:5,11 233:16,21

234:10 238:4,5,22

239:14 243:10 245:12

248:20 250:16 256:1

contractor's 50:11

90:10

contractors 2:7,14 7:5

24:16 30:10 31:18

32:6 33:7 41:18 53:11

53:14 65:1,10 71:17

95:9 134:17 169:4

179:22 180:1 182:16

183:22 184:5,12,22

188:13 189:13 196:12

201:22 214:19 219:1

219:6 224:17 230:16

242:12,14,18 312:11

contractors/dealers

133:4 177:14

contractually 29:13

contradiction 51:16

control 101:22 200:20

266:1

Controls 2:10 79:11

264:6,9,13,20,22

265:1

controversial 287:1

conversation 9:18 36:4

201:12 255:10,11

266:19 321:2

convince 235:21

convinced 44:22

cool 145:16

Cooling 258:1

Cooperative 2:3

copy 41:13,14,15

114:21 126:2 330:22

corporate 163:18,22

165:1,2,5 168:17,19

169:20 257:19 259:6

259:19 263:5 265:3

316:7

corporation 2:5 316:11

Corporations 168:8

correct 30:1 62:18,20

75:12 98:14 144:1

145:7 154:17 158:11

170:13 186:16 206:13

236:11

corrected 50:21

corrective 285:7 287:12

cost 50:11 109:8,15

186:3 289:12

costs 8:9 30:17

Council 2:9,11

Counsel 2:10,20 78:1

102:4

count 60:8 160:6

280:14

county 95:21 96:19

couple 53:1,8 90:12

148:12 193:5 204:22

248:1 253:9,16

318:21 323:19

course 37:18 68:15

112:2 144:22 167:16

167:18 187:17 226:11

272:2

COURT 210:21 239:19

282:16

cover 149:1 321:14

331:18

coverage 61:19

covered 20:16 167:12

214:5 252:21 268:10

269:18 319:20 323:7

crack 328:21

craft 259:11 260:11

271:13

create 49:4 150:13

194:22 235:20 270:15

created 250:7

creates 105:20

creating 50:4 324:6

creative 150:12

creatively 144:14

credible 41:8 42:9

credit 138:19

criteria 26:1 92:21

critical 323:15

cross-reference 12:11

crucial 115:13

culpable 257:21

current 55:6 68:15 69:1

166:7,17 183:14

280:10,20

currently 116:21 135:2

154:7 171:16 295:5

300:17 310:15 331:4

customer 32:7,14 40:21

42:6 80:9 94:5,5,21

183:1 188:15 235:5

235:19 241:18 289:15

312:15

customers 22:19 32:10

90:4 117:17,20 245:4

245:9

customized 217:16

cut 19:14 61:13 84:22

95:20

cutoff 291:5

cutting 91:13

D

D.C 1:14 11:12

Dan 249:8

data 71:5 129:8 178:12

database 20:10 71:3

206:20 228:17,19

237:6

date 82:6 208:10

225:22 226:5,6,9,15

226:19 291:7,8,8,13

291:13 306:6 307:9

307:10,15,21 320:22

328:6

Dave 72:1 190:10

191:21 242:4

David 2:14,20,21 96:16

136:1 147:21 290:22

day 80:5,7 87:16 103:19

253:5 280:12,13,14

280:17,18 323:14

324:4,12 327:12,13

327:17,22

day-to-day 88:22

days 53:2,8 79:20 84:1

84:1,6 85:8,17 87:6

88:7,8,11,13 89:2,13

89:13 91:4,4 102:17

102:17 103:1,2,10

104:5,9,12,14,14

106:3,7 107:3,15

108:16 109:9 110:2,3

110:13 111:22 112:7

112:12 158:12,17

159:14 160:10,11,13

160:14,20,21 161:7

161:10,13 163:3,4,12

173:5,12 201:13

226:13,19 227:3,6

253:5 264:16 279:7,8

279:10,11,13,14,15

279:21,22 280:8,15

280:16,16,21,21

282:2 285:8,8 286:20

290:16,16,18,20

292:7,21 293:14,17

295:10 310:11 315:7

315:16 319:7,7

322:21 323:10,19,20

327:9,13,14 328:8

dead 108:21

deal 7:16 29:4 32:14

74:9 85:3 86:4 91:14

94:19 95:6,9 258:8,14

265:13,14,17 266:22

287:14 301:3

dealer 168:19

dealers 30:9 31:18 32:5

219:2,6

dealing 39:21 68:19

74:8,13 94:22 95:14

103:22 135:19 258:7

258:22 261:18 268:18

271:6 312:10

dealt 167:10 261:14

debate 143:5

decades 31:19

decelerated 86:13

decide 73:6 84:8,12,22

87:6 106:2,10 107:15

116:1 145:17 159:11

167:16 199:19 218:19

252:16 254:7 272:2

306:17 322:10 327:13

decided 88:8 142:1

165:13 220:1 228:21

294:6

decides 116:9 129:9,9

141:18 144:20 193:13

200:4

deciding 105:1 294:4

decision 6:15 73:3

77:11 86:14 100:13

100:18 101:14 102:14

104:15 134:13 282:11

292:22

decisionmaker 104:4

decisions 100:4

decline 64:19

deem 198:8 258:10

305:16

deemed 63:6 229:4

236:14 272:6 275:6

277:3

deeming 305:15

deep 31:17 32:8

deeper 114:17
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defeat 180:21

defeats 193:10

defend 66:2

defense 2:8 64:5

deference 7:3

deferential 6:18

define 127:12 268:8

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268:13,16 288:16

292:4

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157:11 158:18 283:22

definition 65:6 128:7

167:7 180:3 274:1

281:6 282:20,21

292:1 311:19

definitions 192:9

defrauded 187:16

DEGITZ 2:18 122:18,22

degree 6:5 117:18

162:4 187:14 321:10

delay 156:13 159:7

delegate 284:17

delete 244:12

deleted 229:12 234:13

254:21

delineate 127:12

delineated 57:18

delivered 298:19

denied 80:1,4

denominator 151:15

Department 1:1 2:9,19

6:19,22 7:12 9:6,15

10:15,19 12:2 41:1

43:3,5 49:9 63:18

70:1 76:1 77:8 81:2,5

84:5,11 86:5 99:9,14

99:21 101:7,13,14

102:14 103:9 105:12

115:20 139:18 144:13

146:4 148:15 156:16

162:12 165:13 166:19

178:5 180:19 202:11

213:4,17 214:13

215:8 224:14 231:3

231:14 235:8 236:1

238:19 239:4 241:8

257:8,20 258:17

259:10 260:1,3 266:6

269:6,13 270:12

272:8,15,17 275:2

284:2 288:20 295:18

313:22 314:18 315:2

316:3 321:3 326:20

327:2

Department's 16:6 81:9

115:19 165:4,16

166:4 167:1 170:1

235:13,15,17 241:16

255:4

dependent 263:22

depending 15:7 26:8

27:4 327:22

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depiction 115:14

120:20

deprecate 32:19

describe 238:10

described 139:8 267:2

320:19

describing 46:9 209:2

description 136:9

deserved 97:8

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desk 74:2,3

detail 21:14 184:10

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detection 28:4

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273:5

develop 294:21 324:17

deviation 166:15

device 147:17

dictate 235:4

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difference 22:8 28:19

30:16 217:3 265:22

differences 119:11

different 7:21 20:1

22:13 23:9 26:2,7

27:20 29:9 40:16 71:7

71:15 73:21 99:8

102:2 115:10 116:10

120:12 134:8,9

143:19 161:21 162:17

166:2 174:4,13 181:8

185:11 187:17 188:3

188:20 191:10,12

193:15 195:4 200:4

205:14 216:5,6 219:4

220:9 228:21 236:15

248:18 259:5,7 264:6

265:16 266:18 267:14

268:3 270:14,21

271:2,3 272:14 273:8

273:16 288:14 329:14

329:16

differentiating 26:1,3

differently 147:11

difficult 7:7,19 9:7 23:8

130:20 252:18 294:22

301:4 304:12

digging 136:20

direct 64:12 302:5

direction 24:19

directly 35:7 69:18

directory 128:17 208:5

disagree 15:12 320:5

disagreement 205:18

312:3

disappears 237:5

discomfort 23:12

disconnect 234:22

239:15

discontinue 228:2

234:16 237:8 244:19

discontinued 228:14

228:15,20 238:10,11

239:1

discontinues 237:4

discover 52:4

discovered 260:19

discovery 247:10

discretion 6:20 105:19

271:21 272:1,3,19

275:2 284:1

discuss 68:14 87:1

123:10 229:7 260:9

307:2,20 319:21

323:22 331:16

discussed 5:14,15

50:15 60:4 61:3 73:22

113:2 164:21 173:19

176:14 212:20 214:14

215:16 218:4 219:17

249:6 268:18 279:12

283:4 304:10 321:17

322:6 323:7

discussing 307:7

discussion 56:19

102:11 113:14 116:4

120:14 121:21 123:9

124:1 127:10 132:4

134:8,9 143:21

176:22 245:13 253:1

254:1,12 263:19

264:6 272:22 282:1

282:19 286:7 304:1

312:9 319:19 322:8

322:15 323:4 328:4

discussions 156:2

170:12 204:8

disseminate 323:21

distinction 129:21

141:12 252:12 288:7

distribute 85:19

distributed 231:22

distribution 31:4,8

134:17 161:10,12

208:19 221:10 240:22

263:18,21 264:19

265:21 266:2 267:20

269:15,16,21 288:4

312:11

distributor 12:12 13:21

14:9,12 15:7 16:17,21

18:4 23:2,6 24:13,14

25:1,14 26:4,15,17

29:9,10,12,16 30:5,5

30:18 32:9 37:12,13

39:4,12,16 62:10,16

63:5 70:16 73:18,21

74:13 80:2 82:8 85:11

94:5 95:12,13 96:5

168:10,10,13 171:19

171:22 211:21 214:2

214:3 220:9 231:11

233:2 234:5,19 239:6

245:17,21 246:9,19

247:9 250:15 259:16

259:17 265:13,18

321:15

distributor's 213:11

250:10

distributor/the 172:10

distributors 13:4,6

30:13,21 31:14 32:6

33:6 61:18,19 75:20

81:3 93:7 168:17

171:8,13,15 172:2

213:7,9 214:18

215:14 217:14 219:15

220:13 224:17 234:14

242:11 245:10 247:9

250:9 259:15

District 34:1

divergent 280:20

division 262:13 264:22

265:1

document 186:18

187:20 273:13

documentation 12:21

34:5

DOE 5:21 21:20 22:18

23:1,1 27:9 34:14

36:10 41:12,16 44:7

45:21 50:2,22 51:1,4

51:15,20,22 67:4,17

67:17 69:20 72:16,17

73:2,3 77:6,10 82:12

82:17 85:12 88:1

95:15 107:7 119:18

129:3,9 132:7,19

138:8 142:16 147:14

150:19 154:3 158:12

185:19 198:15 203:20
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DOE's 73:3 119:20

128:14,15 167:21

doing 11:20 22:15 33:8

33:22 44:3 54:11

56:20 65:15 70:2

71:11 74:6 80:1,4,6

80:10 81:14 96:10,21

103:4,5 108:9 116:6

116:20 117:2,12

119:10,13 133:3

140:6 141:1 144:14

156:14 158:21 159:3

175:5 184:10 185:1

189:12,20 193:19

194:12,16 201:19

212:17 219:7 221:1

235:21 237:9 261:18

270:8 272:8,20 276:4

276:13 294:4 298:7

302:9 305:16 309:3

door 155:11 205:12

DORIA 2:3 75:4 77:4

86:16 101:15 106:9

132:15 141:5,11

144:10 146:15 147:3

147:7 150:22 154:13

158:6,10,14 161:18

171:6,17 276:18

296:12,18 297:8

299:22 310:17 311:12

311:15,20 312:1

317:3 320:7 324:2

double-check 225:3

double-checked 46:20

doubled-back 125:4

doubt 24:8

Doug 2:9 4:19 6:2 7:21

15:11 19:10 20:11

22:7 26:6 27:19 35:16

36:12 39:3 41:8,22

46:11,15 47:11,22

48:3,18 49:2 52:7

53:9 54:1 55:17 57:14

60:1 61:15 67:2 68:10

69:14 70:7 78:20

79:10 88:13 90:11

92:7 113:12 118:1

119:5 120:17 123:16

134:20 138:8 142:19

144:4 148:20 157:9

161:8 164:5 170:7

172:6,9 191:18

194:12 195:10 200:12

219:18 220:7 222:5

222:12 230:22 243:9

254:19 255:16 256:3

260:14 262:9 263:16

276:18 279:19 280:22

290:21 297:15 310:10

320:16 323:2 329:12

Doug's 24:9 47:5 138:9

dovetail 83:20

downside 84:20

downstream 24:2

118:15 291:18 292:18

drag 83:7

draw 221:6

drive 204:21

drop 255:9

dropping 255:7

druthers 38:2

duct 195:17,18 204:12

204:13

ducted 178:10,19

190:22 192:3

dumb 205:6

dwelling 56:16

E

earlier 22:7 23:21 92:10

108:2 110:18 115:3

252:4 294:17 312:4

early 30:10 204:8

327:18

Earthjustice 2:2

easier 19:20 59:17

152:10 185:21 186:4

215:1 221:12 250:10

257:12 323:11

easiest 128:5

easily 130:18 187:12

259:14 307:3

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Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

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18:7,7 19:2,3,4,5,6,8

19:9 22:18 23:14

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288:12 290:8 292:19

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297:16,19,20 298:8

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304:12 305:10,20

307:2 314:15 315:9

315:12,13,14,15

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325:5,7,18 327:9

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216:9 219:22 223:6

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goodwill 286:9

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government 42:2 104:3

105:2 153:4 296:1

grace 216:8,15

graphic 126:3

great 29:4 30:13 111:21

145:19,20 193:12

209:9,10 217:2 228:9

275:21 308:4 309:12

greater 23:11 236:18

greatly 152:9

ground 101:20 204:9

groundrules 167:20

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144:20 145:1 153:16

154:9 167:16 213:16

236:3 248:18 266:16

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296:4 297:17 300:14

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groups 114:18 115:9

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guarantee 187:21,22

188:2 246:12 294:19

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guarantees 135:5

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36:1 37:7 38:1 39:11

42:14 43:9,16 48:7

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320:8 322:2 326:8

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32:13 69:21 70:11,15

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install 64:14,19 65:11

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238:1,3,8 240:10,11

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52:4,9,18 66:7,8

83:13 100:3 107:19

107:21 199:15 203:17

203:19 205:3 207:9

224:13 228:14 258:8

288:19 300:4

longer 40:15 85:18

88:14 89:12,14 92:18

103:9 110:11,13

131:10 188:11 199:21

217:4 228:17 230:21

233:20 234:17 239:2

244:10,18 247:11

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26:7,21 29:13 34:2

35:12 36:18 55:5

64:13 66:4 71:2,9,20

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120:3 124:14,22

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182:10 183:11,13

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266:8 284:15 307:6

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28:6,12,12 43:17 44:8

71:5 121:15 136:21

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272:10 278:5 281:5

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looks 10:1 29:7 96:14

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lose 88:4 94:20

lost 248:16 253:15,19

275:16

lot 5:8 7:15 8:19 11:21

20:12 21:8 28:11 30:3

32:20 59:16 65:20

68:11 69:19 74:10

87:12 88:20 89:3

103:4 135:18 156:2

166:1 169:8 173:7

177:14,15 181:16

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189:17 202:1 204:15

215:7 217:19 218:2

263:4 264:16 270:1

280:15 287:19 300:21

300:22 301:2 316:22

317:14 323:11 329:5

lots 41:21 184:3

love 135:18

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loyalty 29:21

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122:12 156:13 175:9

175:16 295:12

M

mad 42:6

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main 36:21 177:18

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322:11

maintaining 220:5

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149:15 188:7

making 53:3 61:10

77:11 100:15 104:15

104:20 113:3 119:8

119:14 137:9 181:17

217:12,14 237:22

242:16 288:20 293:5

295:19

Man 49:14

manager 62:15 312:16

312:17

Managers 34:2,2

mandate 141:3

mandatory 127:7 131:7

137:9 145:11 155:17

297:1

manner 158:19

manual 289:21

manuals 127:18

manufacture 109:4,5

208:9

manufactured 147:18

231:16 249:13

manufacturer 14:10,11

14:16,22 16:15,15

17:18 18:8 19:11

22:10,11,22 23:5,16

24:10 25:2 26:3 27:11

29:8,12 30:4 37:21,22

46:14 47:10,12,13

50:13 61:5,10,13

70:16,18 72:18 73:5

79:5 82:8 91:10 93:17

101:11 103:12 116:5

123:7 129:13 138:2

141:15,18 148:11

160:12 161:11 170:11

170:13,18,20 172:1

173:22 174:3,14

178:5 181:5,10,12,16

183:2 193:1 197:18

209:6 228:18 231:10

231:18 232:6,15,19

234:16 237:4,11

240:7,16 241:5 248:6

248:7,10 249:9 250:4
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79:17 236:9 240:14

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6:13 7:8,11 15:3 17:7

22:15 24:7 25:10

33:13 35:6 36:2 61:20

68:17 76:21 78:22

79:15,18 81:2,11

92:14 103:14 105:20

112:3 118:14 119:2

124:10 126:21 130:10

130:16,19 132:5,18

138:13,14,19 139:10

140:1,12,22 142:22

145:4 147:16 148:7

148:22 149:4,15

153:11 154:4 169:11

172:19 174:4,12

180:22 186:9 190:4

190:13 193:11 208:3

222:10 224:18 227:18

227:21 229:2 230:15

231:5 233:7,12

236:22 237:20 238:6

249:19 255:20,22

256:4 265:22 266:11

271:15 285:3,6

303:12 304:16 306:21

310:12 313:11,15

314:10 320:3 325:15

manufactures 174:8

240:8

manufacturing 2:8,11

221:10 307:1

March 306:18

mark 72:11 141:22

market 108:22 309:15

marking 142:14,15,17

148:1

massive 185:16

master 262:14

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204:5

matched 189:10 201:2

203:18

material 323:18

materials 136:21

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193:4 200:11 253:18

matter 5:10 25:7 37:18

51:11 52:3 66:21

208:10 251:7 306:13

312:10

MATTHEW 2:6

maximum 238:2

McCRUDDEN 2:6 45:6

46:3 50:7 53:11 55:3

73:16 87:8 107:1,6,10

128:10 134:1 203:21

205:19 225:17 226:17

227:8 230:6 234:2

243:6,15,20 258:1

328:19 329:3,8

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McMansion 56:15

67:15

mean 13:8 20:10 21:7

26:14 32:19 33:5

35:15 38:19 50:15

52:20 54:15 60:20

71:21 80:18 85:20

89:18,19 91:1 104:2

106:9 110:15 114:13

121:3 130:1,6 131:9

131:22 146:17 147:9

147:11 152:3 161:20

161:21 163:14 168:12

171:7 181:4 182:17

185:6 186:8 188:5

193:11 194:14 205:19

206:17 207:1 210:19

210:20 211:2 220:21

222:21 229:12 231:8

234:5 235:3 236:1

243:1 248:16 250:11

250:12,19 252:18

255:20,22 258:21

261:20 264:10 268:12

269:10 270:18 278:22

287:7,10 291:6

294:22 298:4 300:2

300:16 304:16 312:3

313:10 314:22 329:1

330:17

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meaningful 288:6

means 33:20 34:4 55:8

61:8 116:10 122:4

158:16 160:4 166:21

167:1 169:21 170:2

170:22 178:15 214:10

266:12 274:8 330:5

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medians 31:10

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253:4 328:14

meeting 1:5,12,15 2:2

44:6 120:5 144:5

175:15 254:3 293:9

293:10 294:8,9

318:17 319:6 322:7

322:20 323:14 328:10

328:11 329:2,11

330:14 332:19,22

meetings 90:22 240:4

249:7 282:2 328:1

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127:14 194:3

Melchi 2:7 35:1,1 61:15

62:2,5,7 63:1,3,7,10

64:3 69:12,12 75:18

75:18 88:15 89:17,19

95:16 96:8 211:15,22

212:5,7,11,15,22

213:22 216:1 217:2

219:18 220:21 221:8

222:1,12 223:3,8

260:14 261:8,13

members 35:5 62:13

69:19,22 90:4 153:14

154:9 155:3,5 188:8,8

307:12 326:17

membership 96:2

154:6,16

memo 331:18

mentioned 61:9,22

92:10 281:10 291:2

310:19

message 34:17 134:16

312:21

messages 202:13

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method 318:2

Mexico 136:14

MEYERS 2:8 15:9 16:8

16:22 17:3,6,9,14

21:13 60:17 93:21

110:9,12,15 113:15

119:16 131:5 133:17

142:6 145:2,8,10

146:21 147:5 153:5

155:21 156:6 173:2

179:17 181:19 198:16

201:7 206:5 229:11

234:13 235:7 238:15

239:21 242:10 243:13

244:15 246:15 247:3

247:12 248:13 279:9

286:22 288:8,22

289:3,9,12,18,21

290:3,8,13 294:15

299:2 306:8 316:20

327:12 328:7

Miami 12:4 14:2 15:22

16:4

microphone 210:22

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315:14

military 284:18

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279:16 301:9

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278:15

minimize 58:21 232:20

240:16,20 248:11

249:20 256:9

minimizing 241:7 318:2

minimum 131:3 194:4

207:20 275:7

Minnesota 241:2

249:16

minor 210:2

minutes 5:7 243:4

251:2 254:7 332:11

mis-rated 174:14

miscommunication

201:21

mislabeled 244:14

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194:20

misperception 23:21

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missed 50:2

missing 176:16 291:19

Mississippi 74:4

mistake 46:18 47:3,14

48:4,9,11 59:3

mistakes 48:10

misunderstanding

29:11

mitigate 91:15 164:5,6

168:7 250:13

mitigated 158:11,15

160:4

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mitigation 160:7 164:10

mixed 197:15 202:13

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mockup 113:17,17

mockups 136:20

model 11:9 16:16 17:19

18:1,9,22 42:20 94:4

97:15 125:1 160:17

178:7,7,9 182:4 183:2

184:17 190:5,9,20

191:3,10 192:2

196:18 242:20 244:21
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modular 191:21 192:11

moment 25:22 82:15

135:15 151:18 213:14

279:7 281:17 322:22

momentarily 242:6

Monday 82:18 83:1

233:19

money 8:7 65:19,20

146:12 161:1 181:17

194:22

months 60:11 147:6

158:20 216:17 224:16

228:18 304:14,17

305:14

morning 3:6 38:17

82:18 225:6 288:1

motivation 187:19

188:5

motor 202:17 203:2

move 24:18 29:21

153:3 156:3 238:21

242:18 245:6 300:13

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190:22 192:3 204:12

204:13

moving 137:14

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169:5 214:14 235:14

258:17 294:21 324:18

music 64:20

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N

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name 35:11 43:11

59:17 97:7 129:2

222:15 246:16 264:15

313:12

nameplating 140:5

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264:17

narrow 67:11 167:17

168:1 213:3 272:3,19

284:1 310:9

narrowed 293:1

narrowing 165:12

275:10 276:8 284:7

285:10

National 2:14

Natural 2:8

Navigant 2:18

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228:10 229:22

near 117:7 306:1

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103:6 184:14,16

216:13 217:10 252:21

296:6

necessary 76:19 177:4

302:9 311:5

need 5:8,17 8:1 15:7,19

15:20 16:22 18:15,16

39:7,18 40:2,18 47:8

51:9,13 53:1 81:22

83:8 89:3,16 90:18

92:14 104:21 105:14

110:7 113:14 120:1

121:9 124:20 125:20

130:21 133:21 142:4

148:20 150:6,11

156:1,21 164:19

175:9 177:16 183:16

184:20 195:12 205:22

208:12 211:17 212:13

217:6,9,13 223:13

241:11,15 242:2

245:4 246:22 247:2,4

248:10 253:4 273:3,3

274:16 277:9,11

285:16 286:10,17

288:19 289:15 299:8

300:8,12,14 304:13

304:22 311:19 316:2

319:6 320:3 327:8

328:4

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121:21 183:12 302:1

needle 28:13

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158:19 177:15 294:17

309:13 324:8 325:20

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negotiated 34:13

negotiation 81:10

236:4

Neil 1:14 2:2 3:10,20

106:9 138:17 176:9

312:7

Neil's 42:15

never 37:8,14 39:5

53:11 75:21 88:17

247:19 277:4

new 59:17 68:13 136:13

141:18 166:18 178:22

179:2 187:11 188:18

244:21 269:17,17

283:9

news 215:14

nice 133:7

night 213:2 216:3

224:14

nine 15:14 17:9 201:13

327:10

no-hassle 61:2 62:4

no-sale 222:21

nodding 62:21

NOLL 2:8 111:2,10

112:6,10 176:9,12

177:5

non 228:2 230:12

313:17

Non-Compliance 76:22

non-compliant 40:1

45:21 51:18 67:14

173:21 174:7 197:11

197:12,17 228:15,22

229:4 230:11 232:2

237:13 238:7 241:9

249:22 267:22 285:12

317:7

non-productive 21:7

25:11

non-standard 107:17

non-subject 107:17

NORDYNE 2:6 137:7

186:1

normal 205:6

normally 188:12

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233:3 240:18 249:11

249:11 250:20

note 58:19,19 135:13

257:3 327:2

noted 135:13 296:7,8

320:6 325:21

notes 229:13 256:20

257:16 323:4

notice 37:10 39:18

46:19,22 47:20 49:11

49:13,21 50:4 53:3

58:15 68:14 75:21

76:4,5,6,10,11,13,22

79:13,17 82:6,11,15

82:17 88:7,18 96:13

97:9,21 102:17,19

110:8 111:22 172:9

172:16 213:20 228:12

285:2 286:15 287:15

287:16 288:19 292:21

315:11,17

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noticed 212:3

notification 47:8 48:20

notified 108:10 287:11

287:18,19

notify 71:18

notion 157:16 316:7

nuance 154:14

nuclear 274:2

number 8:20 11:10

12:10,16 17:18,19

18:2,11,17,21 40:13

42:21 47:12 55:5

58:21 95:7 103:2

107:9 125:1 178:7,7,9

183:2 184:13,15,18

190:6,9,20 191:3,8,10

191:12 192:2,18

196:19 207:3 211:13

215:22 217:14 218:1

218:8 221:7,11

222:16,20 224:10

227:16 242:20 244:21

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numbering 329:13

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187:20 192:21 196:19

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74:18 110:19 112:13

125:21 139:12 153:19

210:16 211:5 224:4

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68:3 112:5 303:9

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201:4 224:7 225:10

295:7 303:5 309:21

318:10

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94:9 185:16

observations 29:3

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54:10 62:11 87:10

169:11 217:22 319:13

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152:11 167:16

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100:18 101:18 102:3

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official 47:5 48:19

304:20,21 305:6,17

312:5

officially 133:18 299:4

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238:11

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160:3 168:9 197:13

278:18 311:18,22

330:13

oil 206:7

okay 4:4,7,13 5:5,6,13

6:17 9:18 10:22 11:19

13:10,20 14:11 17:5

20:15 22:3 24:5 27:10

28:18 33:4 36:5,5,6

38:15 41:10 44:22

45:16,18 49:10 51:17

51:17 52:1 53:21

54:18 56:2 57:6,11,12

57:22 58:5 59:22 63:1

63:7 64:3 66:8,18

68:6 78:4 79:9 83:21

85:3 86:8 88:19 89:17

94:7 98:15 101:2

105:7 106:20 107:6

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112:10,16 114:20,22

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123:3,6 143:2 153:9

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164:12 170:5,9 172:4

172:18 173:1,1,13,16

174:16,22 175:21

177:6 197:8 198:1

206:6 209:18,19,21

211:4 212:5,11

216:20 221:5 222:3

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278:18 279:3 281:2

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290:19,20,20 291:10

291:22 292:8,20

294:1,2 297:22 303:1

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303:18

once 56:5 59:4 76:21

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173:6 218:3 266:4

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288:18 300:12

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59:3

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15:4 57:19 99:10

196:22 211:10 238:3

256:13 288:4,15

317:21

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101:6 191:20 309:16

322:13

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228:21 232:22 241:2

278:6 295:21,22

330:8

option 47:1,16,22 68:20

116:17 123:22 165:15

167:15

options 29:21 78:6

118:7 216:19 319:11

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179:7

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169:20 323:12

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113:6 193:21 276:10

278:21 283:11

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186:7 193:14 199:13

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201:14 202:21 207:2

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317:18

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265:20

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P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S

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251:8,9 306:14,15

332:21

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214:6

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126:20 139:22 187:13

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104:18 320:2

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316:17

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67:18 75:15 105:6

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pendency-of-appeal

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310:8 316:22

people 5:8 10:6 20:9

24:1 28:17 36:19,22

36:22 41:21 44:4

53:17 55:22 60:3

65:20,22 66:4 67:4,8

68:21 69:10 71:7,8

74:3,10,13 76:18

78:10,11 83:6,16

84:22 86:9 96:16

99:22 101:5,12 103:5

115:16 120:2,19

123:10 124:13,21

136:6,13,16 156:10

158:2 160:11 162:17

166:1 176:19 179:13

185:4 189:6,12

195:21 196:21 213:8

229:6 238:12 252:22

253:13,16 255:4

280:4 282:6 287:18

288:19 289:15 294:5

294:10 295:16 301:3

302:8 319:12 322:22

323:20 324:15 325:1

325:22 327:16 328:2

people's 7:15 9:1 44:18

317:10

per-unit 256:6

perceive 23:13

percent 140:17 148:16

149:1 150:1,2,5,8,13

153:15 154:7,20

155:17 180:15 182:9

182:9 184:22 196:4

percentage 149:3

percolate 163:3

perennial 42:17

Perfect 227:8

perform 180:17 249:3

249:15

performance 200:1,2

performs 194:1

period 52:10 89:14

91:12 99:16 103:9

109:13 116:13 121:8

122:5 141:4 168:2

188:11 216:8,16

261:3 291:5 315:18

permutations 162:15

person 10:16,20 12:13

13:7,9 15:20 27:1

37:4 38:3 64:7,8

70:22 71:13,14,15,18

72:3 73:7 82:13 84:13

87:11 94:13 97:10

100:16 111:5 159:4

160:5,9,21 163:4,8,12

164:1 173:7,8 174:7

272:5 275:5 286:19

288:18 289:1 312:4

312:15,16 313:2,3

314:2 315:10 316:10

316:11 319:8 323:15

324:9

person/name 314:17

personally 33:21 43:10

188:7 279:2 305:5

perspective 33:6 34:11

79:1 90:10 187:3

195:8 228:11 291:5

296:19 308:15

perspectives 166:2

187:5

persuaded 284:3

pertaining 20:22 21:1

pertinent 125:9 129:8

petition 301:22,22

phased 217:13

phasing 215:17

philosophy 109:19

phone 9:18,19 41:2

43:18 49:17 90:12

147:22 222:15,20

312:18 319:9

phrase 163:20 269:19

phrased 268:11

phrasing 236:15

physical 12:20

pick 49:17 139:2 203:17

236:10,11,17 312:19

picture 11:11 92:10

96:13

piece 33:21 82:3 93:17

96:4 108:21 109:2

132:1 133:8 248:7

297:4

pieces 179:1,1 181:3

183:13 187:15 194:6

199:19,20 202:6

239:7

piggyback 260:16

pitch 100:21

place 9:15 11:11,21

12:7 37:6 52:19 77:20

99:2 189:17 195:1

231:12,17,22 232:9

233:6 245:8 259:20

261:7,21 262:5

305:11 329:6 330:17

places 167:2 268:9

plan 121:19 176:20

271:14 273:15,16

plane 323:8

planning 286:6

plans 323:9

plate 133:21 142:11

146:18 147:16

play 6:8 48:8 298:16

playing 167:17

please 94:19,22 126:3

183:17 301:3

plenty 161:1

Plumbing-Heating-C...

2:13

plus 8:9 303:6 320:19

point 16:6 20:16 22:7

47:18 49:3,9 53:15

60:13 70:18 71:19

75:10 79:22 84:6

86:14 87:4 93:13 95:4

116:17 128:20 134:12

137:10 162:10,12

163:16 164:9 166:4

168:3,4 171:7 172:16

179:16 186:4 193:2

193:11 206:2 216:9

218:5,13 220:12

222:22 231:1,14

233:6,17 239:4 255:5

264:7 272:18 275:18

278:16 279:18 281:9

281:19 283:8,13,18

283:19 284:16 285:19

287:10 295:20 297:2

313:20 315:8 321:9

325:19 326:7

pointed 193:4

points 153:20 157:8

178:12 192:22 204:22

314:10

poison 30:3

poisoned 23:5 47:10

poisoning 29:6 32:19

policies 259:19

policy 186:5 201:6

popping 164:18

Porter's 183:15

portion 215:13

position 34:5,7 81:9

85:7 115:21 121:14

132:17 133:12 137:11

276:14 295:18 322:11

325:16 326:14

positions 120:10

possession 159:2

161:22 162:3

possibilities 284:11

possibility 91:15,15

215:17 277:20 308:22

possible 68:18 83:2

131:3 160:14 182:6

324:22 331:1

possibly 4:20 12:11,16

14:6 15:6 83:13 85:17

85:17 122:21 140:6

160:12 284:2 302:5

321:2

postcard 185:18

posted 226:20

potential 51:20 136:10

potentially 87:15

powerful 49:6

PR 44:12

practical 52:3 134:21

140:19 221:21 285:17

practice 7:11 183:14

263:8 280:10,20

practices 214:16

preamble 34:15 139:9

140:22 153:11,21

154:3 155:19 226:5

227:5 307:20 332:6

precedent 152:14

166:14

predominantly 17:4

29:18

preexisting 192:15

prefer 37:11,13 58:10

68:22 114:17 118:3

136:19 137:4 152:16

154:19 305:5

preference 3:18 52:21

64:22 78:7 305:20

328:15

premise 237:18 242:1

prepare 324:1

prepared 67:22 90:5

223:22 255:8 320:9

328:5 331:19

PRESENT 2:1,16

presented 112:22

123:18

president 71:4 312:17

presiding 1:15
(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

352

pressure 88:1 196:9

presume 102:18 109:3

299:9

pretend 87:13

pretty 6:18 32:2 51:5

69:6 70:17 81:19

103:1 168:20 192:1

196:14 212:3 216:9

266:7 314:10

preventing 276:22

previous 170:12

previously 97:3 113:3

price 203:5

primarily 180:9

principals 88:21

principle 194:11

prior 73:3

privately 327:19

privately-owned

265:18

proactive 27:7,18 41:18

95:11

proactively 28:5,15

99:22 256:8

probably 33:21 40:6

43:7 48:10 56:8 59:1

87:5 89:22 90:10,13

90:14 91:3,5 102:13

102:19,20 159:5

161:13 168:20 176:22

182:9 184:4,8,14,17

184:21 188:8 196:4

216:4,9,14,16 221:4

221:16 270:2 284:6

318:22 320:6 322:9

323:13

problem 25:15 39:3

41:4 43:20 62:11

63:18 101:9 143:11

151:1 152:5 153:1

185:16 206:3,8 228:9

238:5 243:14,14,18

244:16 250:9 257:5

283:17 300:17 315:1

315:19 316:21

problems 111:1 138:13

175:6,10 211:12

221:17 223:17

Procedures 299:15

proceed 119:7 314:12

proceedings 85:12

process 12:3 17:12

19:11 22:18 31:14

69:6 71:1 76:9 79:2,8

79:20,21 81:1,20 88:2

91:1 92:3,16 93:9

98:17 99:2 100:22

102:2 104:3,22 105:6

105:11 106:1 114:17

116:11 159:4 172:11

173:10 175:3,5

200:19 221:20 285:1

286:7 298:10,16

324:5

processes 294:21

processing 116:7

Proctor 195:21

product 8:7,9 12:6,13

13:9,22 14:2,4,5,8,12

14:14 26:19 52:22

91:14 117:21 129:1

138:5 141:17,22

142:2 148:17 151:4

157:19 165:19 166:8

166:16,20 167:12,12

169:22 170:9 191:11

197:22 214:4,5,8,11

218:21 228:14 230:16

230:20 231:7,15,20

232:1,21,21 234:3,11

237:4,20 238:7 240:8

249:3,21 252:5 256:1

266:5,12,12 267:11

267:11,13,14,15,21

268:7,8,10,10,13,13

268:14,15 269:2,3,4,4

269:6,8,17,18 270:4,9

270:16,20,22 271:2

271:17 272:10 273:17

274:1,8,9,11 275:6

276:12 277:10,12,21

281:10 284:8 286:18

288:11 292:2,4

309:17 310:10 312:16

317:7

productinfo.energy.g...

128:13 134:4

productive 24:11,22

products 13:11 74:5

76:22 106:13 142:1

142:14,16 146:7,9

148:2 151:6 152:12

158:1 182:8 205:5

232:7 244:16 255:21

264:3 266:10 268:2

272:3 285:11 310:13

program 34:19 149:17

149:19 151:11 152:20

153:7 154:15 155:1

169:17 192:9 307:8

307:11

prohibited 82:14

123:20 124:9 125:9

125:15 130:6 135:12

141:17 144:13 165:8

166:7,17 167:4

168:14 170:20,21

171:15 176:21 258:22

266:10 268:4,6 269:3

270:7 271:16 288:3

288:15 291:8 320:2

320:14,18,21 321:10

321:15,20 322:9

324:20 326:7 332:3

project 65:17 66:1

promise 302:16 310:10

promulgated 227:7

proof 16:11

proper 76:8 91:11

properly 45:3 63:14

146:8,10 283:16

314:19

property 94:14 188:1

proposal 48:16

propose 4:2 8:15 9:2

114:14

proposed 114:14 115:8

proprietor 70:18

prosecutorial 272:1,2

protect 48:12 235:5

protected 47:19

proven 80:10 92:15

proves 42:21

provide 20:18 32:13

34:5 43:15 50:12

61:19 89:11 178:6

320:20 321:19

provided 9:20 299:10

providing 10:2 69:2

proxy 129:2

PSC 202:17

public 1:5,12 45:22

46:1 47:8,21 58:19

59:5,10 95:19 99:18

104:9

publication 79:13

publicize 69:21

publicly 39:5 58:22

publish 37:18 94:2

99:19

published 79:18

publishes 82:17

pull 244:14

pulled 90:15 220:3

pump 166:11

pumps 208:9 214:6

281:8 282:12,20

283:5,17

punishment 109:14

purchase 127:17

purely 141:14

purpose 81:8 197:20

199:9

purposes 83:15 191:6

217:5 271:12 291:1

296:9 305:15

pursue 187:17

push 6:17 116:2

pushback 218:2

pushed 6:22 280:5

pushing 70:10 201:6

305:21

put 16:12 32:11 34:4,6

34:15 37:10 39:7,18

42:12 57:4 65:7 71:15

80:8 83:11,18 88:16

91:16 101:19 104:13

108:15 126:16 128:18

133:1 135:2 138:5

139:3 144:22 145:5

146:3,17 147:16

154:5 176:19 177:20

178:16 181:10 183:1

184:8 187:7,9 188:3

188:16,18,21 189:1,2

198:18,19 201:8,10

202:6 203:19 204:20

207:5 208:5 211:8

224:7 226:4 228:5,12

232:9 240:3 241:1

246:14 254:16 257:12

260:22 277:19 291:3

296:4 303:9,17 306:2

306:6 307:18 308:17

314:21 318:13 326:2

326:11

puts 87:22 206:17

putting 133:13 141:16

246:4 279:1

Q

qualify 145:5

quarter 254:6 318:15

318:16

question 11:18 29:6

31:8 37:7 39:20 45:20

57:16 62:9 63:12

70:12 72:11,16,22

77:5 85:8 98:16

103:12,21 104:7

111:2 117:4 118:17

131:17 133:22 137:22

138:7 142:7,12 147:3

147:8 161:9 162:7

164:4,15 165:8,18

168:1,16 170:4

171:18 172:9,21

173:16 176:10 197:6

201:18 212:8 216:22

218:16,18 219:19

220:4,10,13,14,17

222:13,17 224:13
(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

353

225:20 229:17 230:14

231:10 235:12 248:9

248:16 250:16 257:18

260:7,17 263:1 265:6

265:9 266:4 271:10

274:21 277:2 284:22

299:3 311:17,20

313:10 315:5,5,6

319:6 324:3 329:10

questioning 182:18

questions 39:9 59:20

72:9 75:3 98:2 106:11

164:17 177:15 202:1

227:17,17 229:9

323:18

quick 101:1 176:9

199:12 225:20 312:22

quickest 216:14

quickly 67:10 107:14

117:6,13,14 146:16

153:3 176:4

quit 201:5

quite 98:18 153:9,10

159:15 164:17 213:6

265:19 275:10 318:15

quote 188:22

quotes 189:5

R

race 151:14

radar 44:18

raise 45:9 60:4 157:8

raised 49:4 252:4 283:9

294:16

raising 190:10

ran 67:7

Rand 2:3 106:15 162:22

randomly 28:1

range 158:1 196:4

214:11 315:14

RANSOM 2:21

rate 179:8 208:5 244:16

rated 26:19 173:17

179:4,5 180:17

195:16 196:3 202:17

237:21 244:8 249:2

249:14,22 310:13

rates 240:8

rating 133:21 142:11

146:18 180:5,18

182:1,2 186:11 192:7

193:10 198:22 199:2

199:9 201:14,15,18

206:13 208:5,8

230:12 239:9 241:10

244:12,18 245:2

249:5

RAWALD 2:9 4:19 5:5

6:17 10:5 15:18 16:13

17:2,5,8,13,16 19:16

19:21 20:2 21:3,6,12

22:3 23:19 24:5 26:5

26:11 27:19 35:17

36:14 38:15,18 39:15

42:14 43:12 44:9,13

44:19,22 45:19 49:1

50:17 51:17 52:1,7

53:5,13 54:12,19 55:2

55:11,22 56:3 57:1,6

57:21 58:12 60:21

61:21 62:3,6,21 63:2

63:4,20 64:21 66:10

67:5 68:10 70:3,20

73:1,20 75:7 76:3

77:12 79:4 80:11,14

80:17 81:4 82:10 83:3

83:21 84:3,16,19 85:5

85:16 86:8 87:3 88:6

93:5,14 94:11 96:3,9

96:20 97:2 98:13 99:5

101:5 102:9,16

103:11 104:6,10,17

104:19 105:8 106:4

107:5,8,22 108:12

109:9,11,17 110:14

110:17 111:9,14,18

112:9,18,20 113:20

114:12,20 115:18

116:19 117:22 120:1

121:11 122:7,9,11,19

123:2,8 134:20

139:18 143:1,7

144:16 145:7,9,15

152:22 156:12,22

157:3,6,10 159:21

162:21 164:8,14

165:17,21 166:12

167:3 168:8,15 169:3

169:6,9,13 170:3,19

171:14,18 172:13,21

173:15 174:20 175:2

176:2,17 177:18

180:16 182:21 190:3

191:2 192:14 194:17

196:20 197:3,9 198:7

199:11 206:21 207:15

207:18,22 208:15,21

209:18,21 210:11,13

211:20 212:1,6,9,12

212:16 213:1 215:3

216:18 217:17 219:1

219:5,11,22 220:11

220:16 221:5,18

222:3 223:1,5,13,22

224:11 225:5 226:8

227:4,10,20 229:19

231:2 232:17 235:1

235:11 237:2 239:18

240:2 242:22 243:17

247:8,18,22 248:3,22

250:7 254:18 256:2

257:4,15 258:20

259:2 260:6 261:5,9

261:14,22 262:6,8,15

263:11,15 264:8,14

264:18 265:2,11

266:3 267:16,18

269:11 271:18 273:19

274:6,15,18 277:18

279:11,21 280:1,11

281:2,11,14,20 282:4

282:13 283:6,15

285:9,16 286:3,8

288:2,9 289:2,5,11,14

289:20 290:1,5,15,19

291:7,11,22 292:14

292:17 293:19 294:2

294:19 295:13 296:16

297:7,10,18 298:1,15

299:7 300:16 302:3

302:14,17 303:16

304:7,15 305:2,5

306:12 307:19 309:1

310:7 311:10 315:4

317:1,4,8 318:19

319:1 320:16 322:2

326:1 328:13 329:1,4

329:9,18,21 330:2,6

330:11 331:2 332:15

Ray 2:3 92:7 114:9

276:15

re-engage 218:10

reach 69:17 70:21

172:13 254:11 325:18

reaches 163:11

reaction 241:16

reactive 27:7

reactively 28:6

read 143:5 161:21

201:9 236:8 257:3

readdress 213:19

284:16

reading 143:3 236:7

ready 35:19 66:14

144:8 160:15 218:12

237:7 292:12 295:3

318:9

real 23:15 84:21 109:14

118:17 127:22 198:16

199:11 225:19

realistic 91:4

reality 118:11 160:18

realize 87:22 308:19

realizes 47:2

really 4:22 9:7 10:22

12:19 14:9,17 15:5

20:20 24:9 27:16 38:5

40:1 50:2,9 53:9 59:3

59:4 66:7 72:2 73:11

73:13 81:12 84:11

85:6,8,9,21 86:18

90:13 95:10 97:17

102:1 115:20 129:20

131:2 136:13 140:11

145:6 156:13 164:20

169:17 182:3 186:2

188:12 190:1 193:6

195:12,16 197:3

208:12 217:9 224:12

224:21 228:4 236:8

238:5 248:10 257:16

263:12 269:12 271:7

273:11 274:20 277:4

278:22 284:8 287:7

291:22 294:2 308:7,8

316:3 325:20

reason 38:5 39:1 73:4

88:11 110:1 147:7

150:16 169:10 236:16

251:21 295:14 298:7

310:21 311:2

reasonable 5:19 6:11

8:5 15:19 17:21 19:7

19:19 21:20 22:2

25:19 26:7 53:6 54:15

83:4 132:4 140:14

159:17 162:4,16

182:19 286:12,12,17

290:4,6 292:22

reasons 95:7 99:14

211:19 219:17 238:12

recall 211:12 234:6

321:17

receipt 158:18 162:7,7

162:9 163:2 183:1

310:20 311:5,7,8,12

311:15,21

receipts 185:3,5

receive 38:11 215:12

311:11

received 75:21 127:15

286:15 300:6,18,19

receiver 312:5

receiving 20:5 71:1

reception 215:7

recognized 204:10

205:4

recognizing 29:15

recollection 283:4

recommend 52:22

116:22 118:12 121:12

121:15 154:10 266:18
(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

354

279:20

recommendation 4:6

46:4 113:4 118:4,6,22

119:8,14,21,22

120:12 122:3 296:3

303:15

recommendations

155:8

recommended 115:10

recommending 300:18

recommends 116:16

143:12 153:16

reconsider 311:4

record 5:11,12 12:17

13:8,13 15:5 20:1

27:22 28:8 46:13

52:12 58:19 61:7

66:22 67:1 72:5 105:4

105:9 173:5 175:16

175:17 179:18 180:8

183:20 184:1 185:16

186:5 191:6 201:6

206:16 215:19 225:12

242:15 251:8,9,11

306:14,15 314:10

recordkeeping 147:15

150:7 189:11 205:21

225:22 226:7,22

227:6

records 5:20 6:6,13,20

7:4,14 8:10,22 9:20

13:14 14:3 16:3 19:13

20:19,21,22 21:21

22:19 23:1,2,14 25:12

28:2,12,16,22 33:14

39:17 42:13 46:19

54:5 57:17,17 71:2

90:15 127:19 180:12

181:21 182:12 184:19

188:6 194:5 199:5,6

202:7 205:14 209:5

214:2 234:14,20

239:7 241:11 320:20

records-wise 179:14

redesigned 244:21

redid 117:16

redo 117:15

reduce 208:19

reestablish 95:22

refer 126:6,12

reference 123:22 124:2

125:12 127:5 129:13

132:6,21 134:11

204:2

referenced 129:7

refrigerant 195:13

refrigerants 69:16

Refrigeration 2:13,17

refusal 85:3 86:4

refuses 222:19

regard 136:7,14 198:2

regarding 69:16 72:21

120:11 157:12 177:22

257:19 270:19

regardless 30:16 32:16

165:5 200:8

regime 22:9,9,10

region 126:6 127:15

175:4 214:9 232:8,15

275:8 276:2 277:22

285:12

regional 1:3 44:15

107:17 173:21 239:5

250:1 270:13 271:6

274:5 297:5

regions 125:9 127:12

135:12 277:6

Register 99:20

registry 262:17

regular 251:4

regulate 199:6 228:10

267:19

regulation 143:10

228:5 230:3 235:2

regulations 235:20

regulatory 270:10

309:14

reinforce 302:2

reiterate 122:6

related 273:12

relates 267:12

relationship 23:4 24:1

29:6,8,10 30:4,17

32:8 44:12 47:9 69:15

235:19

relationships 30:14

241:18

relative 32:2 186:6

relatively 107:14

108:22 190:1

relevant 25:3 257:5

reliability 318:3

relief 43:8

reluctant 65:22 213:9

rely 124:21

remaining 252:17

remains 250:20

remedial 245:6

remediate 47:17 49:20

50:1 59:15,18 62:11

76:8 108:20

remediated 50:22 51:21

54:7 58:10 60:13 63:6

67:16

remediates 47:4 111:6

remediating 108:2

112:1

remediation 49:5 58:8

58:16 65:9 76:9,11

108:11 109:15,21

111:20

remediations 54:4

remedies 76:5

remedy 48:19

remember 3:7 96:5

127:10 132:11 151:15

204:8

remembered 274:14

remind 96:5 126:3

reminder 3:5 44:14

removal 88:3 106:22

111:4

removed 88:21 89:1,21

111:7,21 234:21

removing 109:2 115:17

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141:3 144:8 182:19

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299:13 314:3,4

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139:19,21 140:3,8

146:13 147:13 148:4

152:11 153:14,16,17

154:1,6,8,11,21

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235:2 264:3 280:18

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requirement 11:16

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126:17 129:15 138:4

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141:8 143:13 147:15

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140:12 148:1 199:19

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237:21 242:16 245:17

248:8,19 249:1,2,9,18

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151:21 233:11 248:14

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304:16 332:11

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233:15 278:5 325:8

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180:13 181:21 185:16

186:5,19 191:6 199:6

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119:17 131:6 145:3

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265:12 284:21 285:14

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rogue 93:8

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283:22 319:16 328:12

329:19

roughly 31:9 79:21

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68:9 72:18 73:4,6,19

74:11,15 75:6,9,10,16

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routinely 74:6 168:12

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Roy 2:11 3:20,22 4:5,16

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281:22 283:14 304:2

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rub 213:13

rule 57:19 66:8 115:8

138:8 139:8 140:5

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259:12 270:15 271:12

271:22 302:5 305:11

307:16,22 313:7

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rulemaking 69:5 115:13

119:1 144:9,19

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299:4,13,16 301:4

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226:12 267:3

run 77:15 240:5 266:1

running 20:7

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rush 253:9

S

S-E-S-S-I-O-N 175:19

S.W 1:13

SACHS 2:11 29:2 31:5

31:21 32:18 59:12

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sales 13:14 26:2 82:19

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218:6 261:2 274:3

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105:14 111:11,14,18

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169:15 210:14 213:3

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272:19 273:10 275:10

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252:14 295:5

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160:15 161:4

second 46:7 47:1 74:8

89:15,20 107:21

112:11 116:13 146:19

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227:21 229:12 230:9

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Secretary 71:2 298:13

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section 66:6 270:7

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24:18 26:6 27:6,10

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48:16 52:19 56:9 57:5

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SEER 12:6,13 13:11,22

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96:18 106:13 115:14

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288:14 293:18

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214:4 240:9

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179:11 181:4 194:8

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331:12

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Seventy-two 290:1

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147:1

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102:20 108:5 109:13

110:3

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222:14 228:18 242:20

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59:10 68:18 75:21

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161:15 162:11,15

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subcontracting 63:21

subdivision 56:14

189:21

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Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

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Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

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totally 115:13 256:11

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185:10,12 187:20

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261:1

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96:17 98:9 106:22

107:12 108:17 110:11

110:11 111:5 157:20

161:3 162:2 170:14

170:22 171:1,11

172:10 261:7,11

264:2 272:6 275:6,21

277:3 278:14 310:15

violators 74:15 171:20

Violatorship 96:14

vis 269:7

vis-a-vis 261:16

visualize 196:16

volume 149:1 184:10

voluntarily 138:19

139:6 140:1 141:1

153:12 154:4 155:22

voluntary 123:7 129:14

130:22 138:2 141:15

142:21 148:21 296:14

297:5 303:12 306:3

volunteer 140:13

volunteered 139:10

141:9

volunteering 140:15

vote 35:14,19 53:19

59:22 66:14 72:12

106:15 115:22 120:7

122:13,14 131:8

167:19 176:8 213:18

218:13 223:19,22

224:1 225:16 256:21

256:22 266:19 272:16

294:5,11,14 295:4,11

295:14 297:2 305:3

308:10 310:21 311:3

311:3 316:17 318:9

319:19 320:4 324:7

325:7,9,20,22 330:18

331:4

voted 176:3 227:14

305:18 332:4

votes 332:8

voting 78:13 296:9

308:20 316:21 326:6

vulnerable 235:8

W

wait 78:15,17 106:20

143:15 223:20 257:2

293:9 294:5,12,13,13

316:18 317:2,5

waited 316:21

waiting 92:4 108:12

153:1,2 275:22

305:11

walk 21:17 65:22 108:8

239:16,22 330:6

walked 9:13 10:6 65:17

65:18

walking 65:2

want 4:9,11,14 6:1 7:18

9:2,8 11:1,6 12:17,18

13:1,15,16 15:1 20:6

20:9 24:18 25:3 27:9

27:20 28:1,3,5,14

29:4 34:11,13,14,20

35:14 36:2,22 37:10

38:6,11,21 40:4 41:4

41:5 43:3 45:9,14

48:12 49:19,19 53:16

53:21 54:22 57:3,8

58:4,9,20,20 59:1,2,5

59:7,9 60:3,9 63:15

64:17,22 65:1,10,11

65:14 66:3 68:19

69:10 71:21,22 73:12

73:13 76:18 77:2,18

78:15 80:19 81:10,20

83:6,11 87:5,7 89:5

92:9,11 93:19 94:20

94:21 95:3,11,19 96:1

97:22 100:22 101:16

102:1,5 105:18 106:6

106:20 108:5,6 110:2

114:4 115:15 116:14

120:18 122:11,13,14

123:14 125:22 126:16

126:20 130:10 134:18

134:21 135:8 138:3

139:1 142:10,10

143:15 144:20 145:12

145:13 146:13 150:19

156:3 157:8 158:14

160:2 167:17 172:6

173:4,10 174:12

175:4,12 176:2,19

178:3,12,20,21,22

179:12 188:21 190:4

191:13,14,15 192:14

192:21 193:20,20

195:11,18 196:18,20

201:16 206:21 208:21

209:2,10 210:16

213:10 215:4,9

216:13 218:7 221:6

223:5,6,20 228:8,8

229:2,7 231:5,15,16

231:21 232:8 233:6

235:4,12,14,17,18,20

235:20 238:9,20
(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

362

241:21 242:7 248:14

249:19 252:22 253:8

254:2 256:8,9,16

257:12 262:2,3,4

266:17,18 271:7

272:2,21 274:20

278:8 281:14 284:4

285:12,18 289:5

294:5,11,12,12,13

295:21 296:6 298:4,5

298:6 300:10 302:12

302:15 303:21 305:13

306:2 307:16 308:7

308:14,17,20 309:19

310:18 313:6 314:11

315:1 316:18 317:10

319:7,8,9,9,18 320:10

320:11,14 321:1,2

322:3,12,13,14,18,21

324:19 325:12,14,22

326:2,12 327:18

328:5 332:1,9,12,13

332:14

wanted 20:20 35:16

36:12 60:22 62:19

123:10 125:11 131:2

134:15 136:5 203:9

220:1 227:19,21

228:12 240:6 280:22

282:10 300:20 302:9

wanting 27:8

wants 3:16 67:2 71:15

100:12 186:16 213:16

266:16 272:13 294:13

315:20 319:14

warehouse 26:19

184:12

warning 44:14

warranty 50:15 61:1,19

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120:4 139:6 201:2

247:20

waste 9:1 231:16

wasting 7:15

watch 69:1

water 21:8 274:4

way 8:4 13:2 14:13 18:6

19:15,20 24:20 25:8

33:11 38:2 40:14 43:4

47:6 48:6,7,17 57:5

59:8 74:7,8 78:14

87:21 88:1 92:16

99:20 106:13 108:1

121:15 150:17 151:1

159:10 161:21 174:20

179:13 184:8 185:1

194:4 195:5 196:17

205:8 224:15 231:6

235:18 240:20 241:7

242:21 246:5 247:13

266:22 267:9 268:4

268:11 272:12,22

273:1 274:7 277:19

277:20 285:22 295:1

295:2 299:14 301:12

316:4 321:13 326:11

331:9 332:4

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we're 21:6 32:6 48:2

123:12 139:15 144:21

151:19 193:21 208:18

251:10 262:19 275:22

330:13

we've 105:9

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70:10 123:22 124:2

124:20,22 125:12

127:6 128:8,14,20

129:6,7,10,13 131:2

131:18,19 132:2,7,8

132:12,12 133:18

134:2,12,13 135:2,3,9

137:1,15 190:5

Wednesday 83:1

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weeds 70:14 98:4

week 10:7 36:16 61:3,9

68:12 112:22 216:17

233:20 235:12 285:8

331:17

weekend 280:13

weeks 132:20 187:4

287:3 291:4 313:21

weigh-in 98:21

weighs 224:3

welcome 186:15

went 5:11,11 18:22

36:15 39:22 54:7

56:18 65:9 66:22,22

91:20 102:17 175:15

175:16 181:5,8

185:19 224:13 249:11

249:16,17 251:8,8

266:5 300:4 306:14

306:14 314:4

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38:19 39:11,14 40:6

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54:18,22 56:12,12,17

57:3 64:4 65:16 90:7

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170:10,10 183:10,10

186:21,22 203:11,11

220:7,15,18 236:5,6

243:21,22 246:6,7,18

262:9,10 263:9,12

275:3

wholeheartedly 263:7

willing 67:21 135:21

140:16 163:6 201:22

204:12 224:16 275:3

279:13 281:15 302:21

willingness 328:2

WINNINGHAM 2:14

190:12 242:4,9

290:21 291:10

wipe 58:11

wisdom 280:2

wish 327:2

withdraw 222:2

wittingly 193:9

wonder 91:5

wonderful 143:9

wondering 147:8

214:15

word 23:12 147:9

166:16,20 209:8,9,16

254:21 288:5,6

worded 247:13

wording 131:3 155:12

words 34:16 145:13

208:22 209:3,11

210:15 325:4,4

wordsmithing 143:5

work 6:3 18:16 19:22

20:9 53:17 56:1 77:18

82:21 116:12 140:12

158:3 161:11 175:10

177:2,17 189:21

193:16 195:1,21

202:2 205:4,15

279:14 299:18 307:4

316:19 324:8

worked 78:18 100:19

177:17 196:12 276:6

worker 298:18 315:13

workers 289:6

working 1:3 20:8 34:17

112:21 162:22 267:3

267:3 278:1,2 289:15

323:20

works 33:10 79:3 209:7

210:1 218:13 236:3

241:4,21 298:6

world 17:20 163:21

worms 143:19

worried 24:2 42:22

143:18

worry 93:7 95:8,10

96:10 225:6 330:16

worthy 254:22

wouldn't 13:13 27:13

97:7,18,22 100:5

102:5,8 103:5,15

104:19 105:17,18

109:3 115:15 120:18

127:3 133:9 140:8

143:19,20 164:6

181:11 203:8 208:7

240:12 245:12 259:11

261:10 270:12 278:8

325:12

wrangle 279:16

write 20:3 66:3 189:5

230:1,3

written 67:13 321:13

wrong 40:2 45:2 51:6

91:16,17 93:10

186:16 187:10,17

194:15 208:4 231:17

232:8 276:17 278:18

278:19 314:2

wrongly 141:7

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X 76:9 96:18 153:13,16

184:6,7

XYZ 11:10 16:16 18:1

Y

yard 18:10

Yeah 58:17 117:13

year 111:6,12 127:22

216:10

years 8:13 13:15 14:3

19:1 31:3 54:9 205:13

224:10,18,19,19

yesterday 5:16 7:20

11:16 35:15 123:11

166:1 183:7 215:16

220:2,14 225:21

305:16

York 198:20 199:15

264:10,15

Z

zero 107:12

0

1
(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

363

1 116:9 150:13 203:13

281:1

1,000 18:22 43:19

185:11 249:13

1,000-unit 189:14

1:30 175:14

1:35 175:17,20

10 12:4 15:21 43:18

64:14 89:13 91:4

156:8 266:5 281:4

10,000 18:20 20:19

10:39 66:22

100 31:2 148:16 150:1,2

150:6,6,8 155:17

184:22

100,000 71:17

1000 1:13

11:00 67:1

12 177:12 228:17

12-factor 84:18

12:00 156:9

12:25 175:14

12:26 175:16

13 12:6,13 13:22 14:1,4

14:9,12,13 96:18

157:19 165:13 187:9

187:12 189:1,2,8

200:14 201:9 208:7

244:4 278:11 293:18

13.2 232:22 240:10

249:15

13.6 173:18

13.8 245:2

13/14 219:21

14 13:11 42:22 91:11

106:13 115:14 173:17

174:6 180:3 186:12

194:1 197:14,16,20

200:16,18,22 202:6,7

203:15,16 204:4

205:1 206:12 208:9

211:5 223:15 232:22

236:18,20 240:8

242:5,7,9 244:5,8,10

245:2 249:14 264:1

275:12 277:9,11

286:14,18 304:20

305:21 310:14

15 5:6 87:6 88:7,13

89:12 102:17 104:9

158:12,17 159:14

160:10,11,13,14

161:6,10,13 163:2,4

163:12 173:5,12

211:11,12,14 222:4

223:21 224:2 242:6

247:14,17,20 251:1

254:10 279:6,8 315:7

315:16

15-minute 66:19 251:6

15th 253:6 280:8

318:18 327:10 328:11

16 20:21 192:5 211:13

223:11 224:5

16-and-a-halfs 220:20

16th 253:6 318:18

328:11

17 224:9 225:9,19

18 4:3,22 70:13 216:17

225:14

18-month 216:8

18s 220:19

1900s 30:11

1st 110:4 116:21 117:1

118:9 135:6 140:9

216:19,20,21 217:18

217:19 218:12 226:3

226:10,20 227:1

304:13 306:18

2

2 1:8 90:1

2:46 251:8

20 42:16 64:9 66:20

108:18 196:4 227:14

2014 1:8

2015 117:14,15 140:9

226:10,20 227:1

304:13 306:18

2016 216:19,21 217:18

218:12

2017 216:20 217:18

20s 220:19

21 3:17 67:3 247:13,14

254:10,16,17 255:13

256:18

210/240 203:6

22 36:10 45:5,8,14,15

45:17 46:6 50:18

59:20 67:6 68:4

256:21

22nd 153:6

23 45:9,12,15,16,18

46:5 50:9 60:1,4

66:12 256:22

24 68:9 257:1

25 75:1 257:2,5 295:5

250 249:16,18

26 111:1 112:13 295:9

27 112:17

28 112:17 295:11

29 123:6 303:11

3

3-ton 184:6

3:06 251:9

3:49 306:14

3:58 306:15

30 83:22 84:1,6 85:17

88:8,11 102:15,17

104:12,14 109:9

110:5,7,13 111:22

112:7,12 159:16

160:19,21 226:13,19

227:3,6 280:16

286:20 295:10

30-day 292:21

31 79:14 80:16,18 81:6

82:5 87:2 103:21

157:11 158:9,11

164:3 170:6,9 172:5

257:5,6,10,13 310:7

32 172:7 173:13

4

4 60:20 176:8 177:7

4-ton 184:6

4:00 254:7

4:21 332:21

4:30 254:5

40 332:11

430.32(c) 266:5,13

274:8 281:4

45 86:18 103:1,9 104:5

104:14 106:2,7,8

292:21

45-day 102:12

46-to-75 87:15

48 224:16

49 55:15

4A 329:20

4A-104 328:12

5

5 177:9

5:00 253:15

5:05 82:17

50 54:5,8,8 56:20 58:10

58:17 59:8,14,18

60:12,13 215:2

500 233:3

54 224:17

6

60 86:18 224:17

7

7 177:10

70 182:9

72 287:12 290:5,13

75 79:20 85:8 86:18

140:17

750 249:16

8

8:00 287:22

80 182:9

8E-089 1:13

9
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

C E R T I F I C A T E

This is to certify that the foregoing transcript 

In the matter of: 

Before: 

Date: 

Place: 

was duly recorded and accurately transcribed under 

my direction; further, that said transcript is a 

true and accurate record of the proceedings. 

 

 ----------------------- Court Reporter 

364

Central Air Conditioner Regional

Standards Enforcement Working Group

US DOE

10-02-14

Washington, DC