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 U. S. DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY

 COMMERCIAL AND INDUSTRIAL PUMPS

 NEGOTIATED RULEMAKING WORKING GROUP

 DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY

 1000 Independence Avenue, SW

 Forrestal Building

 Washington, DC 20585

 Thursday, December 19, 2013

 8:06 a.m.

 Reported By: Natalia Thomas

 Capital Reporting Company
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1 A P P E A R A N C E S

 FACILITATOR

2 Doug Brookman, Public Solutions, Inc.

3 PARTICIPANTS

Lucas Adin, DOE

4 Bob Asdal, Hydraulic Institute

Bob Barbour, TACO, Incorporated

5 Alex Boesenberg, National Electrical

 Manufacturers Association

6 Charlie Cappellino, ITT

Greg Case, Pump Design, Development, and

7 Diagnostics

Dan Cohen, DOE

8 John Cymbalsky, DOE

Tom Eckman, Northwest Power and Conservation

9 Council

Randy Ferman, Ekwestral Consulting

10 Gary Fernstrom, Pacific Gas and Electric Company

Sanaee Iyama, Lawrence Berkeley National Lab

11 Betsy Kohl, DOE

Paul Lin, Regal-Beloit

12 Jane Luxton, Hydraulic Institute

John Masters, Danfoss

13 Joanna Mauer, Appliance Standards Awareness

 Project

14 Mark Menzer, Intertek

Doug Potts, American Water

15 Chuck Powers, Flowserve Corporation

Callie Reis, Navigant Consulting

16 Steve Rosenstock, Edison Electric Institute

Louis Starr, Northwest Energy Efficiency Alliance

17 Steve Thompson, TACO, Incorporated

Greg Towsley, Grundfos

18 Meg Waltner, Natural Resources Defense Council

Dan Weintraub, Navigant Consulting

19 Ben White, TACO, Incorporated

John White, TACO, Incorporated

20 Sarah Widder, Pacific Northwest National Lab

21

22
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1 P R O C E E D I N G S

2 (8:06 a.m.)

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Please take your seats.

4 We're going to get going here. So good morning

5 everyone. Nice to see you bright and early here,

6 a crisp, winter morning in Washington, D.C., about

7 28 degrees or so. A little bit of snow on the

8 ground.

9 We had a very productive day yesterday,

10 and we covered a lot of ground, and we covered a

11 lot of ground without a whole lot of structure

12 that guided the conversation, and I think in some

13 respects that was useful, and in some respects it

14 raised the anxiety of a lot of folks in the room.

15 So I was thinking about it overnight.

16 I've talked with a few individuals this morning.

17 I've spoken with Lucas Adin, and we were going to

18 suggest here at the outset some goals for today's

19 meeting, to try and just create as much clarity as

20 possible, given the fact that we're in the very

21 early stages of this, and there are still a lot of

22 unknowns.
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1 But so for your consideration, I was

2 going to suggest the following goals for today.

3 One goal would be to finish the ground rules, and

4 the principle issue that remains outstanding is

5 the dates -- are the dates, and I think we've just

6 got to see what we can do to understand the

7 ambiguities involved in the dates, and still try

8 and establish something that we think is

9 reasonable, and have the capacity to revisit, as

10 we get into the details, as we get into the months

11 of negotiating here.

12 The other -- yesterday, we had several

13 kind of glancing blows at scope and definitions,

14 right, and so I want to see if we can get a little

15 more clarity and -- a little more clarity on scope

16 today, at least create a preliminary

17 understanding.

18 As we go forward, everybody in this room

19 is going to need to rely on data and analyses. So

20 to the extent possible, we want to create at least

21 a preliminary list of data and analysis needs.

22 Then test procedure, of course, is critical for
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1 doing the analysis, and for making the data

2 collection meaningful.

3 So somehow, we need to create a pathway

4 for test procedure, even though test procedure

5 work is still underway at HI and other places

6 perhaps. And then finally, at the bottom here, a

7 pathway for rulemaking, generally kind of a more

8 general discussion, for those that might have --

9 still have questions about how this might proceed,

10 and how that relates to a more traditional

11 rulemaking activity.

12 So what I'm suggesting is the goals for

13 today, after some brief consultation. Other

14 thoughts on additional goals, I'm going to suggest

15 we start getting after these, okay. If anything

16 else emerges in the conversation that needs to be

17 taken up, we'll make note of it and we'll try to

18 figure out a way to get it included in the

19 sequence. Did you want to start off by saying

20 welcome Lucas, and anything about yesterday, and

21 Betsy, you as well?

22 MR. ADIN: So I think my comments will
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1 probably largely echo Doug's. I also think we had

2 a lot of productive conversation yesterday, but I

3 also had similar concerns about the clarity of

4 direction. So starting off today, I think we

5 wanted to hopefully provide a little bit more

6 structure at the outset, and stating the goal is

7 obviously an important part of that.

8 But we also wanted to maybe try and

9 refocus these discussions about scope and

10 definitions and that kind of thing, and in a way

11 kind of start fresh right from the beginning, so

12 that we all understand exactly what it is that

13 we're talking about.

14 While we all have particular issues that

15 we're all each interested in individually, there

16 are things that we need to figure out at the

17 outset at a very high level, that will help figure

18 -- help us figure out where we're going as far as

19 timeline and the overall progression of the rules.

20 So I had a little bit of a discussion

21 with my team last night, with our legal counsel,

22 and I looked back at some of the materials that we
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1 had put together, both for the framework stage and

2 in anticipation of the preliminary analysis stage,

3 before we got into the negotiated rule, and I have

4 some slides that we can use, hopefully as a basis

5 for discussion.

6 It talks about some of the things that

7 DOE was thinking about with respect to scope. So

8 it's essentially a preliminary position that DOE

9 is planning to take, with the understanding that

10 these are all subject to negotiation. They may

11 very well change, like we talked about I'm just

12 one vote. So all these things are subject to

13 change.

14 But at least it would provide us

15 somewhere to start, you know. What does the term

16 "pump" mean? What might be included in the classes

17 of pumps that we're going to consider for

18 standards? All those things. We have some things

19 that we can look at, some things we can talk

20 about, and you know, they're not things that we

21 necessarily need to vote on today. I think it's

22 probably a little early for that.
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1 But at least we'll know the area in

2 which we're operating generally, so that we can

3 talk about what -- where we want to go from here

4 and hopefully, it will give us a better idea of

5 what we need before we come to our next meeting,

6 what kind of data we want to gather, what kind of

7 analysis we want to do.

8 And we -- the team does have some

9 preliminary analysis that hopefully we'll be able

10 to share by the end of January, but it's fairly

11 limited, because we've only been able to collect

12 sufficient data on certain classes of pumps, and

13 it's limited mostly to the Lot 11 type equipment.

14 So you know, we do expect to go broader

15 than that. So you know, we may need more time. I

16 don't know how much we'll be able to have before

17 the next meeting, but we can talk about those

18 things hopefully in more detail, and we also

19 wanted to talk a little bit more specifically

20 about the test procedure, because that is really a

21 very critical element in the analysis that we're

22 going to do.
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1 So we need to have at least somewhat of

2 an idea of how that's going to proceed, in terms

3 of the timeline generally, and if there's going to

4 be a significant lag on the test procedure, what

5 are we going to be able to do in the interim

6 period? What can we use as a basis for assumption

7 on how products will be tested, so that we can at

8 least do some preliminary analysis, before we have

9 a concrete idea of what the test is going to be?

10 So hopefully that's something we can talk about a

11 little bit more today as well.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: So I'd make a few process

13 notes here at the outset. The first is that as a

14 default, this is the first negotiated rulemaking

15 that I've done for the Department of Energy, and

16 in my mind I'm tracking the procedures that are

17 used in normal, traditional rulemaking processes,

18 and this is different.

19 So for example, I recognized Lucas to

20 make an opening remark. He's one vote among all

21 of you. Anybody that also wishes to make an

22 opening remark will have the chance, as soon as
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1 I'm finished with this procedural stuff, because

2 every vote here counts. Every voice is the same

3 among members in this group.

4 Second, those of us that are joining us

5 via the web, we do wish to make you welcome. We

6 wish to find a way for you to participate sensibly

7 in this discussion. So if you're listening in,

8 please keep your phones on mute and raise your

9 hand if you wish to speak.

10 And members, as they join us via the

11 web, they will be unmuted and have the capacity to

12 join in this conversation as best we can manage

13 it, okay. So having said that, I added one more

14 item to the list. We do need to establish a

15 schedule by the end of the day today, and we made

16 a good start on that yesterday.

17 Are there opening remarks here? Gary

18 Fernstrom.

19 MR. FERNSTROM: Just a question, Doug.

20 Gary Fernstrom, California IOUs. Do we have some

21 people involved in the proceeding today that

22 weren't here yesterday, that we might want to
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1 introduce?

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Sounds good, and maybe as

3 a matter of courtesy, if we'd just have each

4 person introduce him or herself again. Let's just

5 do that again. We'll start with Doug. Name and

6 organizational affiliation only, and yesterday, we

7 did pretty good turning these microphones on and

8 off. Let's try and be consistent about that. As

9 we go forward, there will be a lot more folks

10 listening online.

11 MR. POTTS: Good morning. I'm Doug

12 Potts from American Water.

13 MR. HANDZEL: Good morning. I'm Mark

14 Handzel from Xylem.

15 MR. HUBER: Al Huber from Patterson

16 Pump.

17 MR. POWERS: Chuck Powers from

18 Flowserve.

19 MS. WALTNER: Meg Waltner, Natural

20 Resources Defense Council.

21 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,

22 Edison Electric Institute.
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1 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary Fernstrom,

2 California Investor-Owned Utilities, which would

3 be PG&E, the Southern California Edison Company,

4 San Diego Gas and Electric, and Southern

5 California Gas.

6 MR. ECKMAN: Tom Eckman, Northwest Power

7 Conservation Council.

8 MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer, Appliance

9 Standards Awareness Project.

10 MR. STARR: Louis Starr, NEEA.

11 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg Towsley, Grundfos.

12 MR. CAPPELLINO: Charlie Cappellino, ITT

13 Industrial Process.

14 MR. CASE: Greg Case, Hydraulic

15 Institute.

16 MR. BARBOUR: Bob Barbour, TACO.

17 MR. ADIN: Lucas Adin, DOE.

18 MS. KOHL: Betsy Kohl, DOE General

19 Counsel's Office.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Please stand. We don't

21 need a microphone.

22 MS. REIS: Callie Reis, for DOE.
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1 MR. WEINTRAUB: Daniel Weintraub, for

2 DOE.

3 MS. WIDDER: Sarah Widder, Pacific

4 Northwest National Labs for DOE.

5 MS. IYAMA: Sanaee Iyama, Lawrence

6 Berkeley National Lab.

7 MR. ASDAL: Bob Asdal, Hydraulic

8 Institute.

9 MS. LUXTON: Jane Luxton, Clark Hill for

10 Hydraulic Institue.

11 MR. FERMAN: Randy Ferman, Ekwestral

12 Engineering Consulting, supporting the energy

13 efficiency advocates.

14 MR. WHITE: John White, TACO.

15 MR. THOMPSON: Steve Thompson, TACO.

16 MR. MASTERS: John Masters, Danfoss.

17 MR. LIN: Paul Lin, Regal-Beloit.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thanks again. How

19 many joining us via the web?

20 MS. KOHL: Four.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Four, okay. Welcome to

22 those of you joining us on the web. Where do you
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1 think we should start with this? What would be a

2 sensible way? I'm looking at you, since DOE's

3 done a fair amount of work already. That's why

4 that remains kind of part of the default here,

5 right.

6 So should we start with -- which would

7 be -- of these do you think would be the easiest

8 to launch into?

9 MR. ADIN: Well, I think the most

10 logical place really is to start with the scope

11 again.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

13 MR. ADIN: Because that's really kind of

14 the highest level item. So like I'm glad to bring

15 up our slides and start from there.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's do that. Yeah,

17 yeah. That sounds good. Doug? Yes, Steve.

18 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock. I

19 just want to thank Jeremiah for sending out the

20 marked up, the tracked changes version of the

21 ground rules last night. I was able to print it

22 out. It was very much appreciated. It was very -
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1 - it's very helpful to show all the changes that

2 we made.

3 I know this -- we got the clean version

4 this morning and I appreciate that. The tracked

5 changes version was also very helpful. I just

6 want to thank you for sending it out last night.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you, and

8 that's a nice capacity we have here. Thank you.

9 Thanks, Jeremiah.

10 (Off mic comment.)

11 MR. ADIN: All right. So as I

12 understand, we have some slides that we had

13 prepared for the purposes of discussing things

14 like scope and definitions and that kind of thing,

15 and we do describe these things in terms of a

16 preliminary position taken by DOE. This is based

17 upon what we had -- the information that we had

18 gathered, leading up to and prior to the framework

19 stage.

20 So again, understanding these things are

21 very preliminary, and we will be able to discuss

22 all of them. We at least wanted to put something
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1 out there to start the discussion.

2 So this is actually some material that

3 we had already started discussing yesterday, and

4 we have some basic information up there with

5 respect to the types that we're not planning to

6 consider. So just to make clear, the term "pump"

7 as we discuss it here is the word as it is used in

8 EPCA.

9 So in DOE's view anyway, the word

10 "pump," in terms of the statutory sense,

11 encompasses all three of those configurations

12 potentially. They all constitute what DOE would

13 consider to be a pump in the statutory sense.

14 So what we're really doing for the

15 purposes of this working group is discussing, in

16 more specific terms, what classes of devices

17 within that term "pump" we're going to set -- try

18 and set standards for. So DOE has already

19 determined what the term "pump" means generally,

20 in the statutory sense. That's the broadest

21 possible use of that word. So we're -- was there

22 a question? Sorry.
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1 MR. POWERS: Yeah. Just one question in

2 my world, and I think some of the other guys. You

3 had the word "sold" as well as this one to two

4 percent. So you're -- I'm speculating the one to

5 two percent relates to quantity in the word

6 "sold."

7 So you could have a big mix, you know,

8 on a sold unit dollar value versus quantity. So -

9 -

10 MR. ADIN: Right.

11 MR. POWERS: I assume that's what you

12 mean up there, because in other words, even those

13 engines and steam turbines and all may be a

14 smaller quantity, their packaged price could

15 outweigh.

16 MR. ADIN: So my --

17 MR. POWERS: That's okay. I just want

18 to make sure I understand what -- the way you mean

19 quantity and sold.

20 MR. ADIN: Right.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: So that was Chuck. Thank

22 you, Chuck.
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1 MR. ADIN: Right. That's a useful

2 distinction. Thanks for bringing that up, and

3 certainly, to the extent there are questions about

4 any number like that, please ask.

5 But yeah, my understanding and I'll ask

6 the team to correct me if I'm wrong, but that's --

7 in terms of number of pumps in use or sold? Sold.

8 Okay. So number of pumps sold and the type of

9 driver.

10 MR. POWERS: So it's not the dollar

11 value; it's the quantity?

12 MR. ADIN: That's right, the quantity.

13 MR. POWERS: I just wanted to clarify --

14 MR. BROOKMAN: I'd like for him to

15 finish this slide, if that's okay.

16 MR. ADIN: Well, I don't know that

17 there's a whole lot more to say about this one,

18 other than -

19 -

20 MR. BROOKMAN: I want you to finish the

21 right-hand side of that column.

22 MR. ADIN: Okay. So we state there
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1 pretty explicitly what we do not expect to

2 consider, and that is to the extent we're covering

3 drivers, the efficiency of the driver itself,

4 we're not looking at types other than electric

5 motors, and then at the bottom there, we'd exclude

6 things like other mechanical equipment.

7 And it does imply here, and I think

8 we're going to talk about it in a little more

9 detail, but DOE is also expecting to limit the

10 scope for standards purposes to clean water pumps.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock. Gary.

12 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay. This is Gary,

13 California IOUs. When I first saw the one to two

14 percent, I had the same question that Charles had,

15 one to two percent of what? But in looking at it

16 more carefully, it looks like that's a subcategory

17 of non-electric drives, and you're simply making

18 the observation that drivers other than electric

19 are a small fraction of the market, and that's the

20 rationale why DOE is not wanting to consider other

21 than electric drives. Is that correct?

22 MR. ADIN: I don't know that that's the
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1 sole rationale. That's a piece of information

2 that's worth considering. I think that's really

3 more of what we meant to --

4 MR. FERNSTROM: But I understand. It's

5 probably the primary rationale. But just because

6 a bare pump, a pump motor combination, a pump

7 motor and control combination comprises a small

8 percentage of the market, is not a reason why DOE

9 expects not to consider those products; is that

10 correct?

11 MR. ADIN: That would not necessarily be

12 the sole reason that we would decline to cover

13 them, or even necessarily the primary reason. I

14 mean I think it's an important reason, but it

15 wouldn't -- it wouldn't --

16 MR. FERNSTROM: What I'm trying to do is

17 establish that a small market share is a

18 subcategory of drives other than electric, and is

19 intended as at least one explanatory rationale for

20 recommending that drives other than electric be

21 excluded. Is that correct?

22 MR. ADIN: So the question -- let me
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1 make sure that I understand the question you're

2 asking. The question is basically whether DOE

3 would consider the fact that these particular pump

4 configurations used with these drivers as having a

5 very small market share, serves as sufficient

6 basis to exclude them from standard-setting?

7 MR. FERNSTROM: What I'm trying to

8 establish is what DOE does not expect to consider,

9 and reading it, it looks like DOE is not expecting

10 to consider drives other than electric and

11 mechanical equipment, belt, gears.

12 DOE is not necessarily expecting not to

13 consider products that comprise one to two percent

14 of clean water pumps, or not typically relevant to

15 clean water pumps.

16 MR. ADIN: Okay. I think I understand

17 the question more clearly now. So to state it

18 more explicitly, DOE is not expecting to cover

19 drivers other than electric motors, and not

20 expecting to cover mechanical equipment. So a

21 type of clean water pump that has only one to two

22 percent of market share on that, whether you know,
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1 if it's electric motor-driven, whatever it is, and

2 it happens to have just a very small market share,

3 that alone would not necessarily exclude it from

4 consideration, if that's what you're --

5 MR. FERNSTROM: Thank you. Thank you

6 very much. That's what I was trying to establish.

7 MR. ADIN: Okay. Sorry it took a while

8 to get there, but yeah.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve.

10 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. Steve

11 Rosenstock, Edison Electric Institute, and again,

12 this falls back to the scoping issue, in terms of

13 if we're just talking about clean water pumps or

14 not. I'll leave that issue aside.

15 Here's a couple of concerns. In the --

16 during the framework document, during the workshop

17 in February, one of the slides says approximately

18 ten percent of the pumps DOE is considering may be

19 driven be natural gas or diesel engines or steam

20 turbines. Now it's one to two percent. That's a

21 significant difference.

22 And again, I'm assuming both are
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1 quantity of sales, not horsepower or -- so that's

2 kind of a humongous difference, pardon my French.

3 MR. ADIN: Well, I might ask the team to

4 -

5 -

6 MR. ROSENSTOCK: I have a couple of

7 other follow-up points.

8 MR. ADIN: Understood. That's a good

9 point. I might ask the team to back me up on

10 this, but my understanding is that the ten percent

11 was in a much broader scope of pumps. Like that

12 might include non-clean water type applications

13 and that type of thing.

14 MR. WEINTRAUB: I believe that may have

15 been --

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Find a microphone. We

17 want this on the record. Please state your name.

18 MR. ROSENSTOCK: I've got a few more

19 points.

20 MR. WEINTRAUB: Dan Weintraub, Navigant.

21 Alison went back and after having input that was

22 given at the framework, went and revised those
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1 numbers, and I believe -- I can't say with full

2 certainty, because Alison's not here right now.

3 But I believe that it was with the scope that DOE

4 had reestablished.

5 So looking at the scope that was

6 proposed in the framework, one to two hundred

7 horsepower, clean water. This is the number that

8 now applies to it. I believe that that ten

9 percent number was over a larger scope, and was

10 not fully applicable.

11 MR. ROSENSTOCK: I appreciate that, and

12 the reason -- the reason I want to mention that is

13 if this group decides on a larger scope, that

14 number might change. Whether it's horsepower size

15 or application, non-clean water applications.

16 Again, depending on what this group decides and

17 what the final outcome is.

18 The second thing I wanted to say is it

19 might be one to two percent, but what percentage

20 of annual energy does that represent? Is that one

21 to two percent, is it five percent, is it ten

22 percent, is it 20 percent? I mean it's one thing
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1 if it's one to two percent of the quantity, sales

2 volume, and as well as national, I'll say, pump

3 energy usage.

4 But that one to two percent is really

5 the large, the big ones, the big guys for the

6 large agricultural applications, or the large

7 water system applications. That one to two

8 percent of quantity could be double-digit

9 percentage of the energy usage used by these

10 pumps.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck, then over to

12 Charlie.

13 MR. POWERS: A minor, to help Lucas a

14 little bit maybe in this thing. If we're going

15 after the products we end up in Lot 11, it leans

16 back to what Charlie said earlier about the pump.

17 So two things I'll clarify.

18 If one to two percent are engine-driven,

19 motor, you know, non-motor so to speak, the other

20 grouping of pumps that we're going to be focused

21 on, when that pump goes to the shop, it doesn't

22 know if it's going to be a motor-driver or engine-
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1 driver or turbine-driver.

2 If we make a decision on the pumps in

3 the other grouping, those one to two percent end

4 up being turbine. It doesn't matter, because

5 we're already going to affect the efficiency or

6 the improvement on the pump.

7 So if you ignore the one to two percent,

8 you're going to get what you want anyway, because

9 we're not going to change our pump design for 98

10 percent. It's still going to be the bulk. That's

11 number one, in my opinion, you know, to help Lucas

12 on this clarification, right.

13 And then the other issue is the Lot 11,

14 which I think what Al and them had done back in

15 February was not part of the meeting, clearly was

16 a certain grouping of products and stuff at that

17 time. But it also lends itself credibility back to

18 the issue of focusing on the pump, because that's

19 the primary energy driver, right?

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, Charlie.

21 MR. CAPPELLINO: Charlie Cappellino with

22 ITT. Just to give you some sense, our business
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1 covers a very broad cross-section of water pumps,

2 industrial pumps, and if I walked you through our

3 factory, I would say 98 percent of the product

4 that goes out that factory are electrically-driven

5 motors. A steam turbine or an engine-driven piece

6 of equipment is pretty rare. I mean it's pretty

7 small, and I would suspect the same would be of

8 the case for the other companies around the table

9 here.

10 I was also going to ask Doug who, you

11 know, has -- I think you said 7,000 units in the

12 field.

13 MR. POTTS: That's correct.

14 MR. CAPPELLINO: I just wanted to ask

15 you what your observation would be, from a

16 statistical standpoint, in a general sense.

17 MR. POTTS: I'd say in our fleets,

18 probably in the high 90's -- it's in the -- yeah,

19 I'd say it's in the high 90's of pumps that are

20 strictly electric-driven. We do have some cases

21 where we have pumps that have a secondary drive

22 connected to a diesel drive for emergency purposes
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1 in a power outage.

2 (Off mic comment.)

3 MR. POTTS: No, no. We do have a large

4 plant in New Jersey that has several high service

5 pumps that run on natural gas. That's partly

6 because natural gas is cheaper than electric. But

7 that's one plant out of hundreds of plants that we

8 have. So it's a small percentage.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary.

10 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary Fernstrom for the

11 California Utilities. I'd like to support Steve

12 Rosenstock's position and observation here. I

13 think it's very important that we and the

14 Department of Energy maintain fuel neutrality. As

15 was pointed out by Charles, it's true that most of

16 these pumps are electrically driven.

17 But to give you a specific example in

18 California, I don't have a number, but there's a

19 huge market in agricultural pumping, where farmers

20 have a choice of a diesel engine or a natural gas

21 engine versus an electric motor.

22 Diesel engines and gas engines are both
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1 significantly more polluting than electric motors,

2 and we wouldn't want to incidentally create an

3 efficiency standard that would in any way cause

4 someone to want to choose a different drive, you

5 know, that would be an engine in lieu of an

6 electric motor, because that would have adverse

7 environmental consequence, although as Doug

8 pointed out, it may be less expensive.

9 So it seems to me that this exclusion

10 isn't really germane or relevant to what we're

11 doing here, because it only applies to a small

12 fraction of the market, and secondly, we don't

13 want to cause an adverse outcome.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's return to the

15 slides.

16 MR. ADIN: Well, just a couple of points

17 in response. So first of all, a point to

18 reiterate, and I think at this point everyone

19 understands this, but the exclusion, if in fact we

20 do exclude pump systems of this type, it does not

21 exclude them from the overall scope of the term

22 "pump" in EPCA.
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1 So we would only be covering electric

2 motor-driven pumps for the purposes of this

3 rulemaking, but it does not preclude us from

4 writing a standard for them in the future. So

5 just to make sure that that's clear.

6 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary again. How do you

7 know that this pump product is an electrically8 driven pump? You know, the 200 horsepower pump

9 rolls off the assembly line. Like Charles said,

10 the manufacturers, for that matter the appliance

11 regulators, don't know necessarily how it's going

12 to be driven. So how does this statement have any

13 meaning relative to the market reality?

14 MR. ADIN: So that gets to a question of

15 another broad issue that I expected we would get

16 into a little bit farther down, but we might as

17 well talk about it now, since it's kind of

18 critical to understanding in practice how these

19 things would actually be implemented.

20 So the critical aspect of how a standard

21 that DOE writes is actually applied to a given

22 product is on a basis of distribution in commerce.
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1 So it is how that product, as DOE covers it, and

2 sets a standard for it, is distributed for sale

3 and for use. So if the manufacturer distributes

4 it as an assembled system, and DOE has written a

5 standard that's applicable to that system, then

6 this applies.

7 If there's a standard that is only

8 applicable to the pump, it's the hydraulic portion

9 of the pump itself excluding the driver, and it's

10 distributed that way, then you're right. It would

11 be -- the standard would apply irrespective of

12 whether it's a gasoline-driven system or electric

13 motor or whatever it is.

14 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay. So following up

15 on that line of reasoning, which seems reasonable

16 to me and I agree with, we're essentially saying

17 DOE does not expect to consider drives other than

18 electric motors, for those products that already

19 have electric motors on them, right?

20 MR. ADIN: As distributed in commerce.

21 MR. FERNSTROM: Yes.

22 MR. ADIN: Right.
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1 MR. FERNSTROM: Thank you.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve.

3 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI.

4 It's getting into nuance, and I appreciate that.

5 I'm just concerned that it sounds like DOE wants

6 to -- and again, it really depends on whether it's

7 one, two or three, but under a scenario of two or

8 three, again, if that is the agreed-to consensus

9 or if that's the path that wants to be taken.

10 Right now, the impression I'm getting is

11 that under that, I'll say under item, line item 2

12 or 3 as a process, that if there is some sort of

13 requirement on the motor or control, as well as

14 the pump aspect, that you were just focusing on

15 electric motors and not worrying about other non16 electric type of drivers, in terms of requirements

17 in a standard.

18 So again, it's a little bit in the

19 nuance. It's basically depending on our scope of

20 coverage, are we just only going to look at

21 electric drivers, yes or no, and that's what I'm -

22 - that's what kind of Gary and I are concerned of.
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1 And in terms of the timing yes, I understand you

2 might say well as a first standard, we'll just

3 look at the electrically- driven pumps, and we can

4 still cover the non- electrically-driven pumps.

5 But again under federal law, you know,

6 you have six years to review a standard. So it

7 could be six, you know, as many as six years

8 before I'll say the competitors to these electric

9 drives are considered under a standard, and I will

10 say -- I will use the example of space heating

11 equipment.

12 Way back under NAECA, all equipment,

13 electric, gas, oil equipment, had an increase in

14 standard in 1992. Heat pumps have had two

15 increases in standard since then, in 2006 and now

16 soon to be in 2015. Residential boilers have had

17 one increase. That was legislated and started in

18 2012. Gas furnaces have not been increased since

19 1992, okay.

20 So competitive products, one product's

21 been increased twice; another product hasn't been

22 increased in over 20 years. So again, you might
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1 say they're under coverage, but unfortunately,

2 there's been some DOE history where certain

3 products that are competitive with other products

4 have not been increased at the same rate. Thank

5 you.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: I want to make sure we

7 stick with the scope that's relevant here.

8 MR. ADIN: Well, but Doug if I might, I

9 mean I think Steve to some extent, and correct me

10 if I'm wrong, but to some extent you're invoking a

11 point that Gary Fernstrom made earlier, about the

12 potential for fuel switching and competition

13 between something we have covered and something we

14 have not yet covered.

15 And it's a very valid point. It's a

16 concern absolutely worth considering. I think DOE

17 would be remiss if we didn't consider that. To

18 some extent, I think we already have in some of

19 our analysis. But I guess a question I might ask

20 the group up front, and I fully expect that we're

21 going to look at this in more detail down the

22 road, but really what is the likelihood that a
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1 user of one of these pumps would switch.

2 Obviously, understanding to some extent

3 that depends on the life cycle cost that we end up

4 calculating for electrically-driven pumps, as a

5 consequence of whatever standard we're going to

6 set. We can't really know that yet, because that's

7 a variable. But just given the landscape right

8 now, it sounds like it's a very localized issue,

9 depending on what kind of application you have,

10 and what the prices of those fuels look like, but

11 --

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Just to clarify. I'm

13 hoping that these few slides help us to stay at

14 about 30 or 50 thousand feet in a way. Don't give

15 up on it yet, because I think it's going to be --

16 it's going to provide a platform that's useful for

17 us, and there's a lot of difference in this room

18 in terms of understanding how this might work.

19 I'd also like to clarify that this

20 represents I believe, based on what Lucas has

21 said, DOE's kind of early thinking, not their

22 finished thought process, not the results of this
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1 negotiation, and furthermore, doesn't necessarily

2 respond to all their statutory obligations, right.

3 This is very early on here. So that's

4 why broader concepts and things like that may be

5 useful. I presume we're going to get into them in

6 greater detail in the course of this negotiation.

7 But I'd like to keep it at a fairly high level

8 right now, and having said that, Al and then Tom.

9 MR. HUBER: Lucas, is it -- you've got

10 three choices up there. Is it your intent only to

11 do one of them, or are you going to, you know, HI

12 proposed bare pump, and then also extended

13 product, which would be 1 and 3 originally.

14 MR. ADIN: Right.

15 MR. HUBER: So my question is, I mean I

16 think you address -- if you do all bare pumps, you

17 address their problem with engines, because you

18 are addressing the pump, and the pump doesn't care

19 how you're driving it. If it's more efficient as

20 an engine-driven or more efficient as an electric,

21 they're still more efficient.

22 So that's my question to the DOE. I
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1 mean you're trying to shoot for one, or are you

2 going for a multiple?

3 MR. ADIN: So the most concise answer I

4 can give you to that question is we're not limited

5 to one. We could conceivably do all three as part

6 of this standard. So you could actually write

7 standards --

8 MR. BROOKMAN: In terms of your

9 statutory authority.

10 MR. ADIN: Correct, and again, it gets

11 back to that question about how the overall

12 product is distributed for sale in commerce. So a

13 manufacturer that only distributes what we have up

14 there as a bare pump, and it's assembled by the

15 user, whomever they have.

16 Maybe they have, you know, these are

17 replacement hydraulic pumps, you know. The user

18 already has a driver on site, and they're just

19 swapping it out, you know. That's that case. But

20 then you have brand-new complete systems, some

21 kind of close coupled motor-driven pump that is

22 distributed, you know, in a complete assembly.
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1 Then that's another case. Then you have

2 the final one where that's included, you know, has

3 a driver array of VSD included with it.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Tom Eckman, and then Meg.

5 MR. ECKMAN: I guess my need for

6 information would help address whether I'm

7 concerned about this or not. Do any of the

8 manufacturers sell anything other than an electric

9 drive as a single product?

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Al?

11 MR. HUBER: Yes, we do. We actually

12 sell all three of those configurations.

13 MR. ECKMAN: No. I mean with a non14 electric drive.

15 MR. HUBER: Yes. We do. We sell a lot

16 with engines, but ours are fire pumps, which are

17 not, as far as I know, are not going to be subject

18 to this rule.

19 MR. POWERS: But even the ag industry,

20 as Gary I think was alluding to diesels and all

21 that, whether it's in Nebraska, center pivots,

22 whatever you want to call it, right? They're also
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1 seasonal, three months, four months, some cases,

2 right.

3 MR. ECKMAN: Do you sell those as a

4 single product?

5 MR. POWERS: Well, I wanted to get back

6 and clarify something to Lucas. I believe this

7 might be the case around the table, but for sure,

8 we sell a lot of bare pump new, because the

9 packaging industry has gotten really big and

10 really good at it, and in certain areas, we're

11 talking a lot of units going out as a bare unit.

12 Even in the agricultural industry, the bare, you

13 know, product, you know the horizontals is a Lot

14 11, whatever.

15 And they know whether you can get them

16 for a 60 volt or they can't take the 11,000 coming

17 down the line. They need them for a 60. They

18 can't get them for a 60, they'll go engine drive.

19 They'll go gas. Whatever their situation is, you

20 know, PTO drive, offload tractors, whatever. I'm

21 just using that as an example.

22 But we sell a lot of units. You made
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1 the bare pump was only to replacement. Yes. But

2 there's a lot of bare pumps going out there that

3 someone else, through distribution, through OEM

4 houses, whatever, package.

5 MR. ECKMAN: That's my guess. Do you

6 sell something other than electric drive when it

7 leaves the factory as a single product? Does it

8 have a diesel engine attached to it? Does it have

9 a propane engine attached to it? Do you sell that

10 as a single SKU, any of you, or only electric

11 drive when it leaves the factory?

12 MR. HUBER: I've already answered that,

13 I think, from our standpoint.

14 MR. ECKMAN: You have smart electric

15 drive?

16 MR. HUBER: It's electric drive, other

17 than the fire.

18 MR. ECKMAN: Yeah.

19 MR. HUBER: Yeah.

20 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel from Xylem.

21 Our answer would be the same as Patterson's.

22 Right.
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1 MR. ECKMAN: So other than bare pumps

2 that could go on any drive, you're selling

3 electric drives only?

4 MR. HUBER: Basically, yes.

5 MR. ECKMAN: So --

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Meg, do you want to

7 comment here?

8 MR. ECKMAN: So I don't have a problem

9 with that.

10 (Laughter.)

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Meg's next.

12 MS. WALTNER: Yeah. I just had a

13 question for Lucas. In deciding, you know, which

14 types of pumps are regulated under which of these

15 three categories, you said it would be based on

16 how it leaves the manufacturer facility. I was

17 wondering if you could also, if we could consider

18 a horsepower range, where certain categories would

19 apply?

20 For example, you know, any pump over 20

21 horsepower would only be regulated as a bare pump,

22 regardless of how it was sold from the
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1 manufacturer. Is that -- I'm not suggesting that

2 in particular, but is that something we could

3 consider as part of how this construct would work?

4 MR. ADIN: Yes. Yeah, I mean we could

5 set -- and effectively what that would be is

6 defining the product classes that we're going to

7 set standards for. Horsepower ranges, the amount

8 of head, and any characteristics that we, you

9 know, through our evaluations of the market and

10 the potential for energy savings, determine are

11 the most appropriate classes of products to cover.

12 So yes, absolutely.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary.

14 MR. FERNSTROM: Well, I'd like go back

15 to the question of relevance. Steve's concern and

16 my concern is that electric motor-driven products

17 not be discriminated against to the benefit of

18 other drive forms, such as diesel or gas-fired

19 engines.

20 I don't think that's a problem, because

21 the manufacturers just told us that generally

22 other than fire pumps, the only products that
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1 leave their plants as an integrated product

2 through distribution are products that have

3 electric drive.

4 So excluding drives other than electric

5 motors for products that are only sold through

6 distribution with electric motors, seems like an

7 unnecessary exclusion to me.

8 MR. ADIN: Okay. Well, okay. So just

9 in brief response to that, it does come back

10 somewhat to a technical question then, in terms of

11 how a product is rated. So if you're going to

12 write a standard that's applicable to that type of

13 pumping system, pump plus driver, for example, how

14 do you test them and develop a rating if you're

15 including both types of energy sources?

16 That's not a question I'm trying to

17 answer immediately, but you know, the reality is

18 that from a technical perspective, they might just

19 be fundamentally different. So you know,

20 including them together -- I mean we'd write

21 separate classes, I suppose.

22 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay. So this is Gary
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1 again. I don't disagree with you. Those two

2 cases that you presented probably merit different

3 approaches. However, the product sold with

4 something other than an electric motor isn't sold.

5 So we don't need to worry about how you test it.

6 MR. ADIN: Right. I don't think we have

7 a disagreement about that.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Chuck, and then

9 we're going to move on here.

10 MR. POWERS: I'm going to make one

11 clarification. Lot 11, right. You get into large

12 oil and gas pipeline stuff that's in, you know,

13 that's not part of this. You can only go so far

14 with electric motor, okay. You get into huge, you

15 know, you get to a pipeline that's a 25,000

16 horsepower unit that's not going to be electric

17 motor.

18 So we're talking about what we -- we're

19 talking Lot 11. To be fair, I'm just saying Lot

20 11. But those others -- so when you -- I want to

21 make sure you don't think we don't ship ever

22 anything. Under the 200 horse Lot 11.
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1 (Off mic comments.)

2 MR. FERNSTROM: So this is Gary. I

3 understand, I agree. The discussion is within the

4 context of the sort of things we're talking about

5 here.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah, and so far I guess

7 we're -- maybe you need to keep going with your

8 slides.

9 MR. ADIN: Right.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: I want you to keep going.

11 MR. ADIN: Sure.

12 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Hi. One other thing,

13 Steve Rosenstock, and again, this goes back to the

14 information accumulation.

15 Again, if it was one to two percent of

16 the annual energy usage, as well as one to two

17 percent of the sales, I'd probably be okay with

18 exclusion. But again, because of the large sizes,

19 especially if we're going up to over 200

20 horsepower, again we haven't decided that, where

21 there is a significant number of non-electric

22 drivers out there doing some sort of pumping for
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1 fluid X again, then you look at the energy

2 equation and the national energy usage. All of a

3 sudden it changes quite dramatically, in terms of

4 one to two percent of the pumps is 20 or 30

5 percent of the pumping energy usage out there.

6 That's all I'm saying.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Go ahead.

8 MR. ROSENSTOCK: In our scope, it's

9 still down to one or two percent of the energy

10 usage of the covered products, then it's like well

11 okay --

12 MR. POWERS: Just to clarify. The

13 statement was --

14 MR. BROOKMAN: We keep diving pretty

15 deep here. Let's do this quickly.

16 MR. POWERS: The statement was not the

17 quantity and stuff. The statement was do you ever

18 ship any?

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie, you want to

20 follow on?

21 MR. CAPPELLINO: Charlie Cappellino,

22 ITT. So one of the things you're exposing here is
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1 the complexity of looking at systems versus the

2 individual pump efficiency, right? So one of the

3 advantages of looking at the pump efficiency in

4 and of itself, when you have a modular type of

5 product, which is kind of described up here, is it

6 doesn't matter what the driver is, because the

7 efficiency of the pump is independent of the

8 driver.

9 So you might want to just consider that,

10 as we progress the discussion from what we talked

11 about yesterday, where you have integral designs,

12 where the pump and the motor are design

13 integrally. That's a different scenario than what

14 we're talking about on the screen, where you have

15 the choice to modularly interchange drivers.

16 There's an advantage of just looking at

17 the pump in and of itself. So in the case that we

18 show up here, I think Al's point was looking at

19 the pump efficiency and regulating that bare pump,

20 that bare pump could be applied one, two or three

21 and regulated in one, two or three.

22 But there's also an opportunity, with
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1 the extended product approach, which HI has been

2 looking at, of looking at the system and control

3 and energy savings. So you've got to kind of, I

4 think, keep that in mind as you -- as we walk

5 through this.

6 So I would encourage people don't get

7 locked into a particular position, until we kind

8 of walk through what some of the opportunities

9 are.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary.

11 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary Fernstrom,

12 California IOUs. I have a process-related

13 comment. I'm feeling the pressure to keep this at

14 a high level and move forward. I understand we

15 have a limited --

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you for feeling the

17 pressure.

18 MR. FERNSTROM: On the other hand --

19 MR. BROOKMAN: I think it's beneficial

20 at this stage, right.

21 MR. FERNSTROM: Well, but let me finish.

22 On the other hand, you know, what we include and
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1 exclude or the thoughts we have about DOE's

2 recommendation are a high level important factor,

3 and it's important that we get down in these

4 details, to come to a mutual understanding.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: I have no doubts that

6 your high level thoughts will find their way into

7 this conversation. No doubts at all, and that's

8 why you've got a piece of paper there that you can

9 make a note to yourself, okay, and that's why

10 we're going to keep it right now at a fairly high

11 level, and try and grasp some of these broader

12 platforms before we move on.

13 We've already created much more

14 understanding in this early conversation now. So

15 keep going.

16 MR. ADIN: Well, just to reiterate a

17 point I think I made yesterday, my view anyway is

18 that we're not talking about these things today,

19 for the purpose of setting them in stone for the

20 rest of this rulemaking.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Right.

22 MR. ADIN: Okay. We're talking about
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1 this really for the purpose of deciding what's a

2 reasonable timeline, you know, with the

3 understanding that our timeline shouldn't

4 necessarily be limited by scope. If there are

5 things that we determine through the analysis that

6 we do or any other considerations that should be

7 included, then we should include them. So I don't

8 -

9 -

10 MR. BROOKMAN: So did everybody hear

11 that? I want you to state it again, Lucas.

12 MR. ADIN: Yeah. So we're talking about

13 this, just very high level and abstract -- no, not

14 abstract terms, but preliminary terms, I'll put it

15 that way. They're not very abstract at all, but

16 on a preliminary basis, so we at least know where

17 we're starting, what kind of data do we want to

18 gather at this early stage, and again, to the

19 extent we decide to amend that scope as we go, so

20 be it.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So this was very

22 useful.
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1 MR. ADIN: Okay. So I think we've

2 already talked about this one in a pretty

3 extensive way generally speaking, but I've put up

4 some definitions that DOE has been contemplating,

5 that would help us define what all these

6 components are.

7 And again, this is getting into more

8 specific issues that really we'll need to address

9 a little bit further along. I mean this isn't

10 something I think any of us should feel

11 comfortable really making decisions on today, and

12 certainly not voting on today. But at least we

13 wanted to put something up there to start the

14 discussion, yeah.

15 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary Fernstrom,

16 California IOUs. I just have a quick comment on

17 definitions. I think our friends from Danfoss

18 would consider driver or drive to be a variable

19 frequency drive. I understand, in the context of

20 your definition, you mean it to be the product

21 that provides mechanical drive to the pump shaft.

22 Controls kind of breaks down into two
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1 parts. It's the VFD that gives a motor the

2 capacity to operate at a variable speed, and then

3 it's the control that determines how that speed is

4 chosen.

5 So I think we need to be, you know,

6 clear, because there's -- some of these terms are

7 used in different ways in the industry.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, and I guess -- so

9 this is illustrative of DOE's early thinking about

10 this. Comments here. Yes, Steve.

11 MR. ROSENSTOCK: And again, to follow

12 with Gary, I understand because of industry terms,

13 this is what DOE is saying, trying not to confuse

14 the terms with the usual, I'll say the industry

15 types of acronyms or definitions.

16 In terms of concept, in terms of the

17 diagram, you know, instead of saying "driver" you

18 could say "prime mover" or -- there might be

19 another term to use so there's no confusion with

20 the industry term, in terms of control mechanism.

21 But in terms of a concept, the pump equipment, the

22 energy producing energy mover and then any sort of
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1 control mechanisms, in terms of conceptually, I

2 like what this is -- how you're describing it.

3 But again, it's just a definition. It's

4 not necessarily the scope of coverage. It's just

5 a finding here's what we're looking at. So I like

6 this as a concept with maybe revising the word,

7 just so there's no confusion about whether you're

8 talking about the mover or the control aspect.

9 MR. ADIN: Understood, and keep in mind

10 that these -- again, these are preliminary. Yours

11 is literally the first feedback we've received

12 from anyone outside the Department on any of this.

13 So we had every expectation that you would have

14 feedback, very helpful feedback, some of which has

15 been very helpful so far.

16 And terms are extremely important.

17 Obviously, I mean we spend a lot of time dealing

18 with definitions and what they mean, and how they

19 apply to coverage and determine coverage and that

20 kind of thing. So I expect we'll have quite a bit

21 more debate about these. Again, I don't think we

22 need to exactly hash out and set in stone what we
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1 want them to say today.

2 But I at least wanted to throw them up

3 there, to make sure that we understood that these

4 are the kinds of terms we're going to need to use

5 and define and that kind of thing.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Additional comments here?

7 MR. ADIN: Oh, I'm sorry. Was there --

8 no.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: No? Okay.

10 MR. ADIN: Okay. So this slide depicts

11 DOE's general view of how a metric, a rating

12 metric would apply in each of the three scenarios

13 that we had laid out. So where the top one is the

14 situation in which we're only setting standards

15 for the bare pump itself. So that would just be a

16 pump efficiency metric.

17 The second one would be the situation in

18 which we're setting a standard for bare pumps and

19 pumps plus motors. So that type of system, and

20 then the bottom one is all three. So we need some

21 kind of metric that could evaluate the efficiency

22 of all three configurations, so that they could be
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1 compared to one another. Steve.

2 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Hi. Steve Rosenstock.

3 Yeah, unfortunately, again just looking at the

4 slide, this assumes there's no non-electric

5 drivers covered under the scope. It's saying only

6 electric input power. Well, there can be other

7 fuel, fossil fuel input energy for the pump, even

8 under the bare pump scenario. So again, just

9 looking at the slide. But again, it's energy-based

10 metric, not just electric input power, for the

11 bare pump especially.

12 It doesn't -- the bare pump could be

13 driven by a whole bunch of different things. It's

14 not just electric power. So therefore, any sort

15 of metric, if you're just looking at the bare

16 pump; I'm not going to talk about the second or

17 third configurations as shown up there. If you're

18 just talking about the bare pump, it's going to be

19 an energy, I'll say a Btu input, regardless of the

20 type of driver, not just electric power drivers.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Right so --

22 MR. ROSENSTOCK: It's a significant, and
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1 the reason I say that, it's very, very

2 significant, because this scenario, this slide

3 makes it assume that it's only electric motors

4 that you're talking about drivers.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: You're back to fuel

6 neutrality. Al.

7 MR. HUBER: I wanted to point out, I

8 think, one thing that may limit the scope a little

9 bit and may help us, is that if we do the bare

10 pump, DOE already regulates motors.

11 MR. ADIN: Correct.

12 MR. HUBER: I mean you already do that.

13 There's nothing that we can do when we put a

14 coupling between it, that's going to change the

15 efficiency of that motor or that pump to any great

16 degree. So I think, my personal opinion, you need

17 to narrow it down to at least to bare pump and

18 pumps ,motors, and controls, because you already

19 regulate the motors. So why bother with that?

20 MR. ADIN: So can I ask a question in

21 response to that?

22 MR. HUBER: Sure.
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1 MR. ADIN: Our understanding, based on

2 the information we've gathered so far, is that the

3 vast majority of pumps that are sold with the

4 motor use a motor that's already covered by DOE

5 regulations.

6 MR. HUBER: That's correct.

7 MR. ADIN: Is there to any significant

8 extent pumps that are sold with some other type of

9 motor, that is not subject to DOE regulation?

10 MR. HUBER: No.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: This is for domestic

12 manufacturers?

13 MR. HUBER: This is for domestic

14 manufacturers. But it's my understanding that

15 they can't manufacture or produce those motors, or

16 sell them in this market unless they meet your

17 standards. Is that not correct?

18 MR. ADIN: That's correct, if it meets

19 the DOE definition of a general purpose motor, of

20 the type that's covered. There are all kinds of

21 electric motors.

22 MR. HUBER: We fall under the general
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1 purpose.

2 MR. ADIN: Right.

3 MR. HUBER: And as far as I know, to the

4 best of my knowledge, at least I'm paying the

5 price for it. So I assume, I'm assuming that

6 we're getting that. So that was my point.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Right.

8 MR. HUBER: Why worry about pump and

9 motor if you're already regulating the motor. If

10 we're going to regulate the pump, why worry about

11 the motor?

12 MR. BROOKMAN: I want to hear from

13 industry folks first. Greg and then to Mark.

14 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg Towsley, Grundfos. I

15 think we need to be very cautious on that

16 thinking, is that especially on a globalization

17 and harmonization with what's going on in Europe,

18 because there could be an opportunity.

19 If you only regulate the pump and not a

20 combined package of a pump and a motor, then there

21 is an opportunity for a loophole for those that

22 develop a motor and pump integrated together,
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1 without being, I guess, a regulated one now, like

2 a NEMA frame or C-face, P-based, those kind of

3 things.

4 Then it becomes difficult for us here in

5 the U.S., that we're not regulating that whole

6 thing. It can become a loophole for somebody to

7 come in and say I make a combined pump and motor,

8 and if you don't regulate it, I don't have to

9 worry about any efficiency. So I think there is -

10 - should be a concern about a pump and a motor.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: I understood that

12 concept, but I didn't quite understand how the

13 application works with it. But I'll go to Mark

14 next.

15 MR. HANDZEL: So I'm going to support

16 both Al and Greg, because really they're both

17 correct.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.

19 MR. HANDZEL: Our point would be that

20 there are some categories of motors that haven't

21 been defined as having to be premium efficient

22 yet, and I believe NEMA and DOE are working on
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1 that. So they're closing that loop already. So

2 that's, you know, it will all be regulated. But

3 then there also are motors that pump manufacturers

4 make, that Greg's comment would apply to.

5 MR. ADIN: So just to elaborate very

6 briefly on a comment that Mark just made, it's

7 correct that there is a motors standards rule

8 underway, which does expand the current scope of

9 coverage of motors covered by DOE regulations.

10 It doesn't necessarily cover everything

11 that's currently uncovered. It does expand it

12 quite a bit, and I don't know if we have a sense

13 just offhand of how much. But I mean we could --

14 oh, did someone have the proposed rules?

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Al, follow on.

16 MR. HUBER: No. I just wanted -- I

17 wanted to follow on. When I was speaking of this,

18 I was talking about Lot 11.

19 MR. ADIN: Right.

20 MR. HUBER: And under Lot 11, I don't

21 think there's an issue with a motor.

22 MR. ADIN: And it's not likely that that
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1 particular part of the market would shift to the

2 use of some other motor?

3 MR. HUBER: No, no.

4 MR. HANDZEL: Right, right. So Mark

5 Handzel from Xylem. Al is correct. If we are

6 limiting our focus to a Lot 11 discussion, it is -

7 -

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Is it appropriate to

9 limit our discussion to Lot 11?

10 MR. HANDZEL: In order --

11 MALE PARTICIPANT: We did that

12 yesterday.

13 MR. HUBER: Yeah, we did. We did,

14 because we honestly believe at this point if

15 you're going to make the dates that you're looking

16 for, you'd better stay very close to Lot 11,

17 because the data is available.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Uh-huh. You're next.

19 (Off mic comment.)

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, Tom. Pardon me,

21 Gary.

22 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary Fernstrom,
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1 California IOUs. I'd like to present a view a

2 little different than Al's. I think the vast

3 majority of let's call them big pumps sold use

4 NEMA-rated DOE regulated motors. However, we were

5 talking about circulators yesterday, the 1/25th

6 horsepower motors, and probably by numbers of

7 units sold, those products exceed any other

8 category in the market, and they do not use motors

9 that are regulated in any way.

10 Frequently, they're built by the pump

11 manufacturer, and attached to the pump and they're

12 not regulated.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you. Yes,

14 Greg.

15 MR. CASE: On the circulator issue, we

16 found a letter that we -- this is Greg Case from

17 the Hydraulic Institute. We found a letter that

18 we put into the public record, and we sell 1.7

19 million units in the U.S. We estimate that that's

20 about --

21 MALE PARTICIPANT: Circulators.

22 MR. CASE: Circulators, yes. We
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1 estimate that's .285 terawatts of energy used. If

2 we improved the hydraulic end of that unit, we

3 can't do more than about two percent, which would

4 be a five percent change. So we could drop that

5 down to .27 terawatts, which is a savings of about

6 .014 terawatts.

7 MR. FERNSTROM: Well Gary again. Greg,

8 I'm not talking about the hydraulic end. You

9 know, we've been talking about this product being

10 sold with the motor. I'm talking about the motor

11 end, and you know, thank you for sharing with us

12 that the industry thinks it sells 1.8 million, 1.7

13 million units.

14 I said I thought, relative to other

15 pumps, there was a large number of circulator

16 pumps sold. Am I mistaken about that? Do you know

17 what the volume of other pumps relative to

18 circulators is?

19 MR. CASE: That would be in the data

20 that was provided to Navigant. So they would have

21 that number. I'm not sure if they're prepared to

22 give us that number, but --
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1 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay. Anyway, there's

2 no question in this proceeding that there's a

3 small improvement opportunity associated with

4 pumps themselves. Where we have an integrated

5 product, we ought to be looking at the efficiency

6 improvement opportunity of the integrated product,

7 the way DOE has laid out their approach to this.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg, you want to keep

9 going?

10 MR. CASE: Well, my comment on that

11 would be then if you look at the integrated

12 product, you have to go to number three, because

13 it really has -- the controls have a huge bearing

14 on whether or not that product is a low energy

15 usage product or a high energy usage product.

16 They're not used as at full capacity.

17 They're not used at constant speed. The pumps are

18 actually run at a much, much lower rating most of

19 the time, and the circulator manufacturers can

20 expand on that. But --

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg, what if it's not

22 shipped with controls?
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1 MR. CASE: Well, that would be an issue.

2 The control system is often put together by the

3 installer. But he may be using components all

4 from that one manufacturer.

5 MR. FERNSTROM: So Greg, this is Gary.

6 I don't disagree with you, but there's an

7 incremental improvement opportunity just with the

8 motor going from an induction to an ECM motor,

9 regardless of how it's controlled. There's a

10 great improvement opportunity associated with the

11 controls.

12 But it's a two-step, a two-class, a two

13 category opportunity, and just by going from

14 induction to PM motor, you can make a 20 to 30

15 percent efficiency improvement, regardless of how

16 you control it. So I want to be clear about the

17 fact that there isn't just one choice here.

18 There are two steps going from the pump

19 and induction motor to a pump and PM motor which

20 is more efficient, than a pump, PM motor and

21 control.

22 MR. CASE: And I believe that we'll, you
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1 know, that there's data that may be available,

2 that we would have to get permission to provide.

3 At this point, we don't have that permission. But

4 we did some surveys. There was some cost analysis

5 done in those surveys, and there's a significant

6 cost increase in changing motor types.

7 MR. FERNSTROM: There is, and there's a

8 significant -- well, we're getting into the weeds.

9 Go ahead.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Well one thing I just --

11 there's an important concept here I just wanted to

12 make sure we're bringing out. As we think about

13 the concept of integration and manufacturers

14 having something that they produce and package

15 themselves, I think all of you are clear about

16 this.

17 It could very easily be the case that

18 the standard would say you need to meet an

19 efficient metric for that thing that you produce

20 holistically, that it -- the entirety of it.

21 So to reach beyond the motor and the

22 pump to controls which you don't control, I think
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1 about the enforcement implications and all that

2 stuff, you know. It's just -- I just thought I'd

3 make that point. Did you want chime in here Al,

4 Mark? Then I'm coming back to you, Steve.

5 MR. HANDZEL: Well just, you know, Mark

6 Handzel from Xylem. You know, I think it's

7 important. You know again, we've been trying to

8 emphasize a, you know a commonality with the

9 European Union Lot 11 format or product --

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah, yeah.

11 MR. HANDZEL: --and you know -- and I

12 think we said it yesterday, that the European

13 Union had a separate initiative for circulators,

14 because they were regulated with the motor, as

15 Gary's pointing out. So I think it just goes

16 strongly towards suggesting that this needs to be

17 a separate effort, outside of this one, where

18 you're looking at that integrated motor and

19 circulator pump, where here we're talking about,

20 you know, the larger size pumps that there's data

21 for, we feel that we can take quick action for.

22 So I just, you know, just clarifying again.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: We heard that yesterday.

2 We heard it several times yesterday. Meg, go

3 ahead.

4 MS. WALTNER: Sorry to interrupt you. I

5 just have a follow-up question for Mark. Can I

6 just drill down a little bit --

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Meg, louder please.

8 MS. WALTNER: Sorry. My voice is

9 struggling. On the need for a separate -- I've

10 heard this a couple of times yesterday and today,

11 the need for circulators to be part of a separate

12 process. You know, I think within this process,

13 we can consider, you know, different effective

14 dates, you know, different timelines.

15 I guess I would just push back on the

16 need to separate it entirely. It doesn't mean

17 that we're setting a single standard for all pumps

18 including circulators, even if we consider them as

19 part of the same process.

20 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel from Xylem

21 again. You know, we haven't heard any separate

22 proposal and separate dates, you know. We've
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1 heard a pretty firm date schedule.

2 So I think from the pump manufacturers'

3 perspective, we're saying okay. If we want to

4 truly do something to the schedule that we kind of

5 outlined yesterday, this is where we think we need

6 to go.

7 So I think, you know, if there's other

8 dates and other ways that we can look at it, I

9 think then that needs to be discussed.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Uh-huh. Steve.

11 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Two points. You know,

12 for, you know, depending on the product, just

13 historically manufacturers have been given outside

14 of a statutory -- outside of the statutory, which

15 changed the deadlines. In typical rulemakings,

16 DOE's given anywhere from typically three to five

17 years lead time for products being covered,

18 between the publication of final rule in Federal

19 Register and when the actual compliance date is.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Right, right.

21 MR. ROSENSTOCK: That's been the typical

22 timeline, again just to point out, an FYI for
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1 everybody.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Correct.

3 MR. ROSENSTOCK: The second thing is

4 again, it's getting back to the information going

5 back to this global, again, 50,000 foot level is,

6 is there information about the percentage of pumps

7 that are sold with integrated controls?

8 Again, if it's five percent and 95

9 percent are third party field-installed, versus

10 you know, that's key in terms of you're regulating

11 a product that the manufacturers really don't

12 make.

13 I mean that to me is a critical piece of

14 information in terms of scope of coverage. Again,

15 I hope that information is provided to Navigant.

16 But in my mind, again, it's a matter of that would

17 really help in terms of --

18 MR. BROOKMAN: We'll have to nail that

19 down. We will.

20 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Yes.

21 MR. ADIN: So if -- I'm sorry. Just

22 really quick, to clarify one point that Steve
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1 made. It is correct, that we usually do have a

2 three to five year lead time from publication date

3 to compliance. This being a new standard, or a

4 product that was not previously covered by

5 standards, my understanding is that it will be

6 five years, is that right? I'll let counsel

7 correct me if I'm wrong.

8 MS. KOHL: Yes.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Counsel says --

10 MR. ADIN: All right.

11 (Simultaneous speaking.)

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Dan.

13 MR. COHEN: If I can. So what's

14 happening here, within the statute there is a

15 cross-walk basically between the industrial

16 equipment provisions and the residential equipment

17 provisions. The setting of standards for new

18 products is within the residential, but there are

19 certain sections that apply back and forth.

20 Actually, we're going through that right now.

21 MS. KOHL: It's a complicated exercise.

22 MR. COHEN: So we will get back to you
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1 on that.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thanks for that.

3 Whenever you get that -- whenever you're ready to

4 get back to us, let us know. Did you wish to say

5 something, Mark? Al.

6 MR. ADIN: Louis had a comment before I

7 started talking again.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Oh yes. Pardon me,

9 Louis. Thank you.

10 MR. STARR: Yeah. So this is Louis

11 Starr with NEEA. You know, some of the things

12 that I'm hoping that Navigant, the consultants,

13 we're talking about the amount of energy being

14 .285 terawatts, and you know, there's a lot of

15 ways you can divide up energy, without

16 understanding what the load profile is.

17 If they just take connected load, that's

18 a very, you know, the amount of horsepower

19 something is, as compared to the total amount of

20 horsepower you sell into the market, that's a

21 very, you know, that number really needs to have a

22 load profile.
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1 So what I'm basically saying, something

2 that's a fractional horsepower can actually

3 consume a lot of energy. So we may be talking

4 about a lot of energy, certainly more than .28

5 terawatts. We're talking 20 percent of that

6 number as a possible savings. There's an immense

7 opportunity there.

8 So that's why I, you know, we're talking

9 about 1.7 million products out there each year for

10 the next 30 years. That's a considerable amount

11 of money and a life cycle cost analysis for the

12 DOE. So I think it's very critical that we

13 identify what the opportunity is here, and that's

14 what we spent probably three or four hours

15 yesterday talking about.

16 I think I speak for most of the

17 advocates when I say that we're going to be very

18 unsatisfied that there's not data to support this

19 information, and understanding what the market is

20 and what the energy use is.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Right.

22 MR. ADIN: So I -- just to let everyone
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1 know, I'm trying to keep a running list of the

2 data needs that we've been mentioning as we're

3 going here, and we can go back through this list

4 after we've had this discussion, and make sure

5 that these are things that, you know, these are

6 the critical things that we need to know to make

7 these decisions, and if there's anything else that

8 --

9 MR. BROOKMAN: I think Al and then go

10 next to Greg and then to Meg.

11 MR. HUBER: I know I have a comment -- I

12 have a comment on what Steve had to say. The

13 industry is concerned that the broader the scope,

14 the more effort we're going to have to make.

15 You're calling this one product, but in our eyes,

16 each one of these classes is a product, believe

17 me.

18 The mechanical and the hydraulics are

19 all different, and we're really concerned, because

20 we have a finite amount of hydraulic engineers in

21 this country. In fact, there are very few. The

22 ones that exist, exist in our facilities today.
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1 And not only are they going to have to

2 get one pump ready, but many of us already

3 manufacture all five of Lot 11, and you start

4 stretching that out to something else, and we're

5 going to have great difficulty making five years,

6 and it's going to cause -- it's going to cause the

7 smaller manufacturers to go out of business,

8 because they're not going to be able to compete

9 with the larger ones for the talent pool that they

10 need to be able to do this. Not to mention the

11 cost of -- the cost of redesign and patterns and

12 tooling and the rest of it.

13 So I just want -- I want everybody to

14 bear that in mind. That is one of our real

15 concerns here.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Thanks for raising that.

17 Chuck. Right. Okay.

18 MR. POWERS: And I think we talked a

19 little bit about it yesterday and I've talked to

20 individuals. The -- it'll also force probably

21 some of the bigger players to go offshore with

22 their manufacturing because that's where the cost
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1 savings are.

2 And the sourcing and the -- and the --

3 and the patterns and the -- it'll just remove the

4 industry and then the other factor comes down to

5 the return on that investment.

6 So what's going to happen is will the

7 end use -- we don't know yet, will the end users

8 pay two, three times more for that product, right,

9 which is good, right, in a way, because it's

10 getting the efficiency and stuff. But then

11 there's a balance there, too.

12 And then -- then will people then say,

13 well, maybe I want a standard product and not

14 worry about this because they can't afford the

15 cost.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Right.

17 MR. POWERS: There's a -- there's a --

18 there's a balance as we go through this. It isn't

19 just, you know, we've got to understand what's in

20 scope.

21 And if we start at a certain level --

22 and then over time I think I heard DOE say that --
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1 that, you know, if we can expand on that as time

2 proceeds, then that's what we have to look at.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. Greg.

4 MR. CASE: Greg Case, Hydraulic

5 Institute. Two parts to that, one other hurdle I

6 see in this is that we don't have a standard for -

7 - or a test standard for circulators. It's in

8 process. But it's well behind the standard for the

9 Lot 11 pumps that we were prepared to -- we work

10 very hard to prepare a test standard for.

11 So I guess that was the comment I wanted

12 to make.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. As was -- Lucas, I

14 don't want to put you on the spot, but you can

15 choose not to respond, does DOE at this point have

16 kind of a preliminary perspective on circulators?

17 MR. ADIN: So what I can tell you is

18 what came out of the framework --

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Uh-huh.

20 MR. ADIN: -- stage. So granted this

21 was a year ago, and also keep in mind the data

22 that we've been able to get on circulators is
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1 extremely limited, but based on what we've

2 received and what we know right now, our view

3 coming into this was that it was unlikely that

4 we'd consider the types of circulators used at

5 least in residential applications.

6 This is wet end -- or wet running

7 circulators used in residential applications, at

8 least for the purposes of setting standards.

9 Now, again, we're very limited in data,

10 so this was a preliminary impression that we

11 wouldn't get to a -- a cost or a cost benefit

12 justified standard level for those products. In -

13 - in other words, energy savings that would

14 justify the cost.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

16 MR. ADIN: In the most general sense.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

18 MR. ADIN: But certainly that could

19 change. I mean, we just don't have enough data.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. Okay. Okay.

21 MR. ADIN: So.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Do you have more slides?
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1 MR. ADIN: So we do. They're getting a

2 little more into the metric --

3 (Off the record)

4 MR. ADIN: -- issues but.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Meg. Oh, Steve.

6 (Off the record)

7 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Well, I -- I -- again,

8 just in, you know, this -- this, again, falls back

9 into the scope. Right now the scope is above one

10 horsepower. And it seems like a lot of

11 circulators are under one horsepower.

12 So again, that -- again, depending on

13 the inclusion, that spills over into other aspects

14 of the scope.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Correct.

16 MR. ROSENSTOCK: So.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. Meg.

18 MS. WALTNER: So -- sorry. This sort of

19 takes us back to the slide and the metrics. So

20 you -- you said here we need the -- the last, the

21 weighted average electrical input power because it

22 captures all three categories.
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1 I'm wondering if you've considered

2 whether we could have different metrics by product

3 class.

4 MR. ADIN: So we have thought about

5 that. And that is, I think, in part possibly a

6 statutory issue which we might need to talk about

7 in a moment.

8 THE REPORTER: Say again.

9 MR. ADIN: So the question was whether

10 we can have -- well, I'll do it from here -- but

11 whether we could have been looking at that bottom

12 row there where it says "weighted average electric

13 input power." That's saying that we would have

14 the same metric for each of those three

15 configurations of products.

16 The question was whether we could have

17 different metrics for each one. And essentially

18 where there -- okay, so we're looking at that.

19 That's --

20 MS. WALTNER: Okay.

21 MR. ADIN: This is a more complicated

22 question unfortunately than --
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1 MS. WALTNER: Yeah. No.

2 MR. ADIN: Yeah.

3 MS. WALTNER: But I think that'd be

4 something --

5 MR. ADIN: It's a good question.

6 MS. WALTNER: -- that we would want to

7 consider.

8 MR. ADIN: And we have looked at that in

9 the past. And I think we're just making sure --

10 (Off the record)

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Could Steve follow on --

12 MR. ADIN: Yeah.

13 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock.

14 Yeah, it's done for other products. You know,

15 there -- there are certain products, there are

16 heating products are rated at COP or HSPF or AFUE

17 depending on the type of product. They're all

18 heating products but they have different metrics.

19 MR. ADIN: True.

20 MR. ROSENSTOCK: They're different and -

21 - and within -- and there's different efficiency

22 standards in the same product class, like
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1 residential water heaters. Now they're --

2 depending on the gallon capacity, there's two

3 different equations, there's two different

4 standards.

5 So it's not different metrics for

6 different product classes --

7 MR. ADIN: Right.

8 MR. ROSENSTOCK: -- are not -- have been

9 done before.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you.

11 MR. ADIN: So absolutely we could set

12 different standard levels for all these different

13 product classes. And, you know, I -- I fully

14 expect that the analysis will show that we have to

15 for it to be -- to justify, you know, all our --

16 our statutory provisions as far as cost benefit

17 and all that. I mean, that's the way it would

18 work for -- for these, as for any other product.

19 The metric though is the really

20 important part. And you're absolutely correct in

21 that some products do have different metrics for

22 different classes and whatnot. Some of those were
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1 set by statute.

2 So that's, you know, outside of our

3 authority anyway. But I -- I think we're still

4 looking at what we can actually do ourselves. So

5 --

6 (Off the record)

7 MR. ADIN: -- we'll try and answer that

8 in a moment.

9 (Off the record)

10 MR. ADIN: Yeah.

11 MR. HANDZEL: Xylem, Mark Handzel again.

12 Just a quick clarification. I'm not quite clear

13 what weighted average electric input power is. I

14 mean, the -- the industry, we would measure what

15 we call "wire to water efficiency."

16 MR. ADIN: Right.

17 MR. HANDZEL: Which would take into

18 account the overall efficiency of all the devices

19 together.

20 MR. ADIN: And that's what this would

21 be. When we're talking about a weighted average,

22 we're talking about a weighted average over --
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1 MR. HANDZEL: A load profile.

2 MR. ADIN: -- different load points.

3 MR. HANDZEL: Okay.

4 MR. ADIN: A load profile. Right. So

5 that you could reflect the -- the energy

6 consumption of something like a motor with a -- a

7 variable speed drive over a varying load profile.

8 MR. HANDZEL: Yeah, it's not electric

9 input.

10 MR. ADIN: I know. It's --

11 MR. HANDZEL: It -- it doesn't clarify

12 it, so I just think we need to work on that term.

13 So I just leave it --

14 MR. ADIN: Oh, absolutely. This -- this

15 was really just for general discussion purposes --

16 (Off the record)

17 MR. ADIN: Yeah.

18 MR. HUBER: It's very difficult to -- to

19 come up with a load profile because every system

20 is different. You really don't know what the load

21 profile is until you get there, until you actually

22 plug the pump in and run it because these are not
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1 standard off-the-shelf systems.

2 These are buildings. They're all

3 designed differently. You don't know how the

4 contractor ran the piping, what size he used, what

5 the engineer designed. He may have designed some

6 to last 30 or 40 years which means your friction

7 losses in the pipe are not the same as they would

8 be if you actually designed it for today's use.

9 I mean, we see this every day. So it is

10 very difficult to come up with a -- with a load

11 profile. You can get a -- a snapshot but it may

12 not be accurate.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

14 MR. HUBER: One of the things that we

15 looked at in the Hydraulic Institute was just --

16 if you're going to judge something, just judge it

17 on -- on a -- we -- we used 100, 75, and 50

18 percent.

19 And we just said, well, this -- so much

20 time we're going to do it this way and this much

21 and this much, whether it's 50 percent at -- at a

22 hundred percent or whatever it is. And we just --
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1 we just made it arbitrary because then you can

2 judge everybody exactly the same. Because you're

3 not going to be able to get -- and their load

4 profiles are totally different from one

5 application to another.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Go ahead, Steve.

7 MR. HUBER: So it'd be very difficult to

8 do this. And I doubt --

9 (Off the record)

10 MR. HUBER: -- ever going to be able to

11 come up with this.

12 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock.

13 Yeah, that -- that's the approach that's taken

14 with -- at ASHRAE for large centrifugal chillers.

15 It's an integrated part load value or integrated

16 energy efficiency ratio where they assume certain

17 percentage of time at certain loads on the system.

18 So --

19 MR. ADIN: Right.

20 MR. ROSENSTOCK: -- that's been done

21 with other products.

22 MR. ADIN: Right. Another analogous
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1 example is -- is the SEER rating used for air

2 conditioners come out of the EER. EER is just one

3 rating point. SEER takes into account seasonal

4 use, different load values, all that.

5 So, yeah, this could be accounted for

6 but that's a test -- that's actually a test

7 procedure question. And so we will -- we'd

8 established some kind of representative load

9 profile and use that as a basis for comparison,

10 but.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's -- let's proceed to

12 the next slide.

13 MR. ADIN: Okay. So -- so I mean, these

14 things get a little bit more into the testing

15 questions. We can't --

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Which we need to do.

17 MR. ADIN: Which we need to do. And --

18 and so that's -- actually, it's convenient that

19 Doug pushed us to move onto this because -- and,

20 you know, Al asked the question about load

21 profiles.

22 Now we're -- we're really getting more
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1 into the test procedure issue because that --

2 that's such a critical piece of determining how

3 we're going to proceed forward.

4 And I think it's worthwhile discussing

5 it at this stage because there's a lot of analysis

6 that we'd like to be able to do in the near term,

7 you know, whether it's before the next meeting or

8 the one after that. And it doesn't seem apparent,

9 at least today, that we're going to have a draft

10 test procedure any time in the next few months.

11 So I think the question for the group

12 here is what can we use as a basis for -- and

13 there are certain members I understand that are

14 probably better able to answer this than others,

15 but what -- what at least can we use as a basis

16 for -- of assumption for the purposes of

17 conducting our analysis as to how these products

18 that we're considering covering would be tested in

19 advance of having a test procedure that we're

20 actually going to use.

21 So if anyone has thoughts on that, I'd

22 be interested --
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah.

2 MR. ADIN: -- to hear.

3 MR. HUBER: Why don't you -- I'll be

4 right back with you.

5 MR. ADIN: Okay.

6 MR. HUBER: You recognize people that

7 ask questions.

8 MR. ADIN: Okay. Yeah, Al.

9 MR. HUBER: I'd like for Greg -- he's --

10 he sits on the committee that's -- that's helping

11 to write these things, so I think we know we're

12 not that far away.

13 MR. ADIN: Uh-huh.

14 MR. HUBER: So I -- I would like for

15 Greg to address it, if he would.

16 MR. CASE: Greg Case, Hydraulic

17 Institute. We -- we have been working on a test

18 standard. We call it "40.6." We have one of the

19 DOE consultants helping with that, so she's been

20 working with the group to do -- to get this

21 standard in place.

22 That standard applies to the Lot 11
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1 units that we were originally scoping here. It --

2 it would not cover integrated product. It is

3 right now in its final committee voting and it

4 will go out for what we call "a standard voting

5 rep ballot" before our annual meeting which is in

6 February.

7 And, Charlie, correct me if I'm wrong on

8 any of this stuff, I was -- I was told today that

9 we might be able to provide that draft to you when

10 it goes out for the SVR ballot.

11 MR. ADIN: Uh-huh.

12 MR. CASE: So that would speed up your

13 access to it probably by about two months. So --

14 MR. ADIN: Okay.

15 MR. CASE: -- that might -- that might

16 help things along. So it would be late January

17 that you would receive that draft.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: I was doing a procedural

19 thing. Would you repeat what it is that you're

20 going to release?

21 MR. CASE: It is --

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Or you have the potential
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1 to release.

2 MR. CASE: It is our standard 40.6,

3 which is the -- the test standard for bare pump

4 testing for what we would consider the Lot 11

5 group of pumps.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you.

7 Gary.

8 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary Fernstrom,

9 California IOU's. So, Greg, I have a question for

10 you. The test standard that HI has been working

11 on simplistically stated sets some load on the

12 pump or some combination of loads in terms of flow

13 and head. Then I presume it measures the shaft

14 brake horsepower input required to achieve that

15 water flow at those head levels.

16 So basically the efficiency, while it

17 may be taken at different load points, is a water18 to- shaft mechanical horsepower efficiency.

19 Right?

20 MR. CASE: Correct.

21 MR. FERNSTROM: So what would be the

22 difference if products are being sold through
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1 channels in an integrated form of pump and motor

2 if instead of measuring the shaft horsepower for

3 those products we just measure the electrical

4 input in

5 KW?

6 It doesn't seem to me like that's rocket

7 science or such a leap of engineering that it

8 couldn't pretty simplistically be done as a

9 modification to that well-thought-out test

10 procedure.

11 (Off the record)

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Go ahead.

13 MR. ADIN: I -- I don't have a --

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie.

15 MR. CAPPELLINO: Charlie Cappellino,

16 ITT. The -- there's a lot of challenges associated

17 with measuring electrical power. I think the --

18 the industry as a whole has chosen the -- the

19 method that Greg described because it's -- it's --

20 it's -- frankly, it's the best way to understand

21 the efficiency of the hydraulic unit itself, the

22 pump itself, the bare pump.
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1 I've been in business a long time, and -

2 - and I've -- I've seen cases where people try and

3 do what you described and it's challenging. I

4 mean, you're right, it's not rocket science. But

5 getting the -- the electrical power measurement

6 and -- and looking at things, like power factor

7 and -- and, you know, the multiple phases and

8 everything else, I'm not -- I'm not trying to talk

9 you out of this, Gary, but I mean, it is -- it is

10 -- it is a more challenging approach.

11 And the other thing that I would put on

12 the table is when you measure the power input and

13 the -- and the hydraulic power output of the pump

14 itself, it -- it takes out this question of -- of

15 the driver, you know, whether you're operating it

16 with electric motor, diesel engine, you know,

17 steam turbine.

18 And that -- I think that's why the --

19 the industry has, in general, gone in that

20 direction for product that is, what I call

21 "modular" in design, why you have the pump, and

22 you can put on any kind of prime mover, driver.
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1 I mean, that's kind of how we've evolved

2 as -- as an industry. And -- and frankly, we're

3 all set up to operate our -- our -- our facilities

4 that way.

5 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay. So --

6 MR. CAPPELLINO: So.

7 MR. FERNSTROM: -- Charlie, this is --

8 this is Gary again. I understand that. I -- I

9 imagine to a pump and water guy electricity is

10 pretty mysterious and scary but Steve and I work

11 in the electric industry.

12 MR. CAPPELLINO: Uh-huh.

13 MR. FERNSTROM: And I can tell you that

14 those pumps are pretty darn mysterious and scary.

15 MR. CAPPELLINO: Uh-huh.

16 MR. FERNSTROM: And the motors and

17 electrical measurement look pretty darn straight

18 forward to me.

19 So, you know, I -- I don't know how this

20 group is going to come to some sort of agreement

21 on this, but I can tell you, from my perspective,

22 measuring the electrical power input's a piece of
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1 cake.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Well, let me interject

3 here that regardless of how this group decides to

4 proceed, pathways that might be easier towards

5 testing would advance the work of this committee,

6 this working group. And -- and any ideas about

7 how, Greg, your -- your group can complete its

8 work, vet its work, make it available, how

9 existing protocols -- how they might relate to

10 subsequent protocols so that we can begin

11 analysis, how these pieces fit together, how they

12 evolve.

13 We need to do our very best to

14 anticipate that stuff so that we can begin to

15 think about realistically about a schedule among

16 other things.

17 Steve.

18 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Again, just -- just

19 going back to the slide, at the high level under

20 the bare pump.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you for staying

22 there.
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1 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Trying. Testing

2 overview, that -- that -- that circle should only

3 be around the pump. And the motor is outside that

4 circle under the bare pump testing scenario. It's

5 a motor edge in our turbine. Again, I'm just --

6 (Off the record)

7 MR. ROSENSTOCK: -- schematically.

8 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: On the lower

9 left.

10 MR. ROSENSTOCK: On the far left, the

11 circle should not be around the motor, it's only

12 around the pump. It's only around -- the circle

13 ends at the shaft basically.

14 MR. ADIN: Right. Just to clarify, the

15 purpose of that particular drawing was to indicate

16 that that's what you're physically testing.

17 To test the -- the pump itself, you'd

18 have a standardized motor that you'd use for the

19 test. Just so you can physically do --

20 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Right.

21 MR. ADIN: -- the -- and that's what

22 that's depicting. Right.
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1 MR. ROSENSTOCK: But it -- it could --

2 well, not -- not really.

3 (Off the record)

4 MR. BROOKMAN: You lost me there.

5 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Well, it's --

6 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Someone clarify.

7 MR. ROSENSTOCK: -- it's something

8 that's driving the pump. Whether that's a

9 calibrated motor, a dynamometer, I mean, it -- but

10 right. Go ahead.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Oh, I gotcha.

12 Okay.

13 Greg, go ahead.

14 MR. CASE: To -- to Gary's point, we -

15 - you know, we have pretty darn good test techs.

16 And they do know how to measure electrical power.

17 They're -- they're not -- not too scared of that.

18 Our issue becomes if we put a variable

19 frequency drive in front of this, to be able to

20 run this pump at various speeds, you can't measure

21 between the drive and the motor that electrical

22 power input anymore. So now you're -- you're
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1 doing it on the -- the upstream side of the drive.

2 MR. FERNSTROM: Which is where we want

3 it done anyway. Thank you.

4 MR. CASE: Which -- which is great.

5 But we don't know the -- what the drive is doing

6 to the motor. Nobody knows that. Darmstadt is

7 actually looking at that right now. It -- it's

8 not --

9 (Off the record)

10 MR. CASE: I mean, you -- you could

11 just say, okay, that's the efficiency of the total

12 package.

13 MR. FERNSTROM: Can -- can I interrupt

14 and accept your --

15 MR. CASE: Okay.

16 MR. FERNSTROM: I accept it. But I'm

17 thinking of this in three product classes -- pump,

18 pump and motor, and drive. And I'm not suggesting

19 that it's -- it's simple to do a measurement where

20 you're including the drive and the operation.

21 By "drive," I -- I mean the variable

22 frequency drive.
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1 MR. CASE: Right.

2 MR. FERNSTROM: And the control that it

3 may operate. I'm not suggesting that's simple.

4 But it is simple to do the pump and motor

5 excluding drive.

6 And you sell a lot of products that are

7 -- come out the door and have SKUs and wind up on

8 Grainger shelf with pump and motor. And it is not

9 hard to put a power meter on the end of the motor

10 and measure the electrical power input.

11 So I'm focusing on this middle category,

12 not the more complicated case that -- that you're

13 talking about.

14 MR. CASE: I'm going to defer to one

15 of the -- the circulator manufacturers, but I

16 believe putting that high efficiency motor you're

17 talking about requires controls on the front end

18 of it.

19 It's not going to be just putting in

20 three leads and -- and measuring the power on

21 those three leads.

22 MR. FERNSTROM: It requires controls
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1 because that's the way some of the manufacturers

2 make it. But in principle that PM motor does not

3 require a control.

4 MR. ADIN: So just to clarify, Gary,

5 you're saying that that motor could be operated

6 without a control and could be tested in that

7 manner?

8 MR. FERNSTROM: Or it could be tested

9 under some defined setting of the control where

10 you're not trying to deal with the variability of

11 the load and -- and so on.

12 MR. ADIN: Understood. I think the only

13 aspect to add to that, at least from DOE's

14 perspective, is that the test, as it would be for

15 any other product, that we're looking for ideally

16 should be as representative as possible of the

17 intended end use of that product.

18 So if it's designed and intended to be

19 used with a drive and it's supposed to be operated

20 that way, in principle, the test really should

21 reflect that kind of operation.

22 MR. FERNSTROM: I -- I agree. But at
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1 this point in the development of the test

2 procedure, or for that matter looking into the

3 future, it's going to be -- and I agree with HI --

4 really challenging to try and determine what the

5 operating conditions are such that -- that that

6 control can be utilized.

7 So you can do something short of that in

8 a test which captures the savings associated with

9 the better motor by simply limiting the control

10 effect or -- or not considering it.

11 MR. ADIN: Uh-huh. Yeah, I guess my

12 question would be in using a test like that, would

13 the rating metric provide information to consumers

14 who are purchasing these pumps that's useful in

15 making a purchasing decision on the basis of how

16 they're going to use the pump?

17 MR. FERNSTROM: Yes, it would. Because

18 it would say regardless of how you use it,

19 regardless of what control mechanism is

20 implemented, just by going to the better motor

21 you're saving this much energy or you've improved

22 the pump motor efficiency by 20, 30 percent.
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1 MR. ADIN: Right.

2 MR. FERNSTROM: Regardless of how you

3 use it.

4 MR. ADIN: But that's on the -- just on

5 the basis of the conditions under which it's

6 tested. I think which those are, you know,

7 testing related issues that I'm sure --

8 MR. FERNSTROM: Well --

9 MR. ADIN: -- we're going to talk more

10 about. But it -- it's just a point that I thought

11 I'd raise because it's --

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah.

13 MR. ADIN: -- come up with other

14 products.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's go to -- let's move

16 on.

17 Chuck.

18 MR. POWERS: Yeah, a couple questions

19 and then I want to talk about motors for a second

20 because we actually manufacture motors.

21 I think, first off, I'll talk about what

22 Charlie brought up, you know, the laminations, how
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1 many of them, motors are not a perfect exactly

2 XKW, right, they all -- every one of them have a

3 little different variance between them all.

4 The standards of the motors -- I'm

5 talking about Lot 11, right -- and -- and they

6 vary. And I think what Charlie was trying to

7 relate to the -- the different factors and the

8 motors and a lot of different issues, when we do a

9 test, you get a certified motor curve so you know

10 exactly what you're dealing with.

11 So what Greg's talking about, you take

12 the wires and do all that kind of stuff. And I've

13 been on the test end and run them. There's a lot

14 of variables with those motors, right.

15 So I'm not trying to say, no, and just -

16 - we have to make sure we have understanding of

17 where that's going. Right.

18 The second point I want to ask is, if

19 we're only talking Lot 11 -- and I don't know if

20 the data's available over there, you know,

21 because, you know, I have our data but I don't

22 know what theirs is -- how many variable speed
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1 drives do we have in Lot 11?

2 Because if the percentage is X, is it --

3 is -- is it -- is it a factor we need to take into

4 this? I'm not talking about circulators. Because,

5 you know, I -- you know, what you're bringing up,

6 no argument, right. But go -- sorry, when you go

7 to Lot 11, how many -- I don't have the number,

8 but how many are out there in industry that are

9 purchased as -- as VFD drives? Right.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah.

11 MR. POWERS: So.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary, you want to --

13 MR. FERNSTROM: This -- this is Gary.

14 I'm -- I'm trying to steer around the variable

15 speed drive issue and just focus on the pump and

16 motor.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Mark, go ahead.

18 MR. HANDZEL: Well, I -- I just -- you

19 know, Doug, we keep -- Greg was talking about

20 where we're at with our -- our -- our test

21 certification preparation primarily focusing on

22 the pumps defined as being in Lot 11.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah.

2 MR. HANDZEL: And -- and Gary took us

3 back into the circulator issue with the integrated

4 motor. So we're -- we're -- we're just talking

5 apples and oranges. And we -- I think part of our

6 problem is is we're still trying to mix these

7 together.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Uh-huh.

9 MR. HANDZEL: So I -- I just -- you

10 know, Greg did start out by saying that we do not

11 have a circulator test standard at this point.

12 You know, our committee recognizes that

13 we need to develop one and that's one of the

14 things on our plate to get started on.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Uh-huh.

16 MR. HANDZEL: But again, Greg's saying

17 one thing and Gary's taking it to circulators

18 where we've already said we don't have a test

19 standard.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Uh-huh.

21 MR. HANDZEL: So --

22 MR. CASE: Well --
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1 MR. HANDZEL: -- we just -- we just got

2 to make sure we're keeping this straight.

3 MR. CASE: Gary suggested that we

4 might extend the HI test procedure that's being

5 developed by simply measuring the power input to

6 the motor where pumps are sold with motors.

7 I mean, why -- in order to do what you

8 guys are doing, you have to take the motor off.

9 You know, you're -- you're not measuring the motor

10 you sell with the pump. You're putting a standard

11 motor on, like Charles just said, a certified

12 motor, which is a dynamometer, and you're

13 measuring the --

14 MR. HANDZEL: Correct.

15 MR. CASE: -- the shaft input. Well,

16 how about if we just take the product off the

17 shelf, the one that you sell with the motor you

18 put on it, and we measure the electrical power

19 that goes into the motor?

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Go ahead, Mark.

21 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel from Xylem.

22 So -- so, Gary, I think, you know, when you look
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1 at a -- you know, call it a circulator, pump-in-a2 box type combination, typically many of us sell

3 those where the impellers are never trimmed.

4 There's never any different horsepower. Nothing's

5 ever changed.

6 So that certainly applies in a

7 circulator type product category. The products in

8 Lot 11 are -- are typically, you know, we have

9 said we sell them with motors, we sell them

10 without motors, we sell them some with drives, you

11 know. The impellers are always -- you know, have

12 a wide variety of different impeller trims it can

13 be sold with.

14 So it's not a pump in a box. You know,

15 it's - - it's typically selected to a specific

16 operating point and we will adjust it to make sure

17 that we can perform to that point.

18 MR. FERNSTROM: Are you telling me that

19 when I go down to Grainger and buy a certain SKU,

20 a two horsepower pump with a motor on it, that I

21 may get a different pump on, you know, one shelf

22 versus the one that sits directly behind it? I --
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1 I don't understand that.

2 MR. HANDZEL: No, that's not what I

3 said, Gary. I -- what I was saying is is that in

4 that case you'd already defined what -- what

5 operating parameter you want that pump to perform

6 at. And so Grainger or somebody selected a pump

7 to provide that.

8 MR. FERNSTROM: No, no. But in -- and

9 your testing, the way HI does it, you -- you know,

10 you're going to take that pump product and look at

11 it with a European approach at 75, 100, 125

12 percent load, and you're going to come up with

13 some pump efficiency.

14 Well, how about we do the same thing

15 only we measure the electrical power input at 75,

16 100, 125 percent. That's not such a big deal.

17 I've got a watt meter. And there you go. You

18 know, you have the wire to water of the combined

19 product -- the pump and motor.

20 Let's not bother with the variable speed

21 -- speed drives yet. That's complicated.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: I -- I've yet to hear, I
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1 don't believe, about why this isn't feasible, why

2 what he's suggesting isn't feasible.

3 GREG TOWSLEY: Doug, I just tried to

4 clarify. We're talking about two different things

5 here.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah, okay.

7 GREG TOWSLEY: So that's all I can say.

8 I -- I don't think it's worth further debating. I

9 can't -- I can't debate whether it's feasible or

10 not.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Uh-huh.

12 GREG TOWSLEY: But all I know is we're

13 talking about two different types of products.

14 (Off the record)

15 MR. POWERS: And I agree. And Chuck

16 Powers from Flowserve again. You know, we talked

17 about this earlier.

18 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: What did -- what

19 are the --

20 MR. POWERS: The motor -- the motor --

21 (Off the record)

22 MR. FERNSTROM: What are the two
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1 different types of product?

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. Chuck, keep going.

3 Were you finished?

4 MR. POWERS: I -- I didn't -- I didn't

5 mean to interrupt.

6 (Off the record)

7 MR. BROOKMAN: You're next in the queue.

8 You want to keep going?

9 MR. POWERS: I think -- I think we spoke

10 earlier and -- and we're trying to clarify. I

11 don't remember who brought it up but -- maybe Al

12 did -- that there is a standard for motors. You

13 know, we all don't use the same motor that goes

14 out there every day.

15 And right there, there's, I don't know,

16 hundreds but there's -- there's quite a few motor

17 manufacturers. And the EC's right, the specs

18 defined. Sometimes specifically the motor, right,

19 in a lot more detail and sometimes pretty general.

20 Right. Not all of them are tested when they go

21 out the door.

22 Some customers, you know, assume the
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1 motor's going to meet a certain spec and the

2 pump's going to achieve certain things and they

3 don't -- they don't expect a certified test or

4 anything else that goes out the door.

5 So there's a lot of variables involved

6 when you say, you know, test the -- the wire and

7 the water, so to speak, on the unit. You know,

8 it's up to the customer on what they require and -

9 - and the variables that go with it. Right?

10 There's a lot of different --

11 MR. FERNSTROM: I'm -- I'm not talking

12 about the products that are specified by the

13 customer. When the refrigerator goes out the door

14 from the refrigerator plant, that's it. You get

15 what you get, you know.

16 And when the pump goes out the door that

17 winds up on the shelf at Grainger, you get what

18 you get. The manufacturer has chosen a motor,

19 couples it to the pump, sells it as an integrated

20 unit, and there it is.

21 MR. POWERS: And I -- and Gary, again,

22 Chuck Powers, Flowserve, Lot 11 is not a pump in a
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1 box.

2 MR. FERNSTROM: Well --

3 (Off the record)

4 MR. POWERS: We're -- we're trying --

5 I'm not arguing with you about what you're asking

6 about a pump in a box at Grainger.

7 MR. FERNSTROM: So I --

8 MR. POWERS: Grainger, you know, a Lot

9 11, you know, would not.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Joanna, you want to get

11 in here?

12 JOANNA MAUER: Joanna Mauer. I thought

13 that maybe I could try to explain what we see as

14 two potential energy saving opportunities of going

15 beyond the bare shaft pump.

16 So the first is circulators, which we've

17 talked a lot about and I think has Gary has

18 explained. We think there's an opportunity for

19 energy savings just from going to a more efficient

20 motor and then there'd be additional opportunities

21 with controls.

22 The other potential energy savings
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1 opportunity that we see is applying VSDs with

2 induction motors. And I think HI's explained to us

3 very well that that's a huge potential

4 opportunity.

5 And it's certainly an open question

6 whether there's a role for standards or role for

7 standards at this point in -- in getting at that

8 savings opportunity.

9 But, you know, I think potentially you

10 could set a standard where if -- if you're a pump

11 manufacturer and you're selling a pump with a

12 motor, the standard could effectively require that

13 you also sell a VSD as a package.

14 And I think our sense is that this

15 potential approach would only be appropriate in a

16 market segment where today pump manufacturers

17 generally sell the pump with the motor. Because

18 we understand that, you know, if you applied this

19 approach to a market segment where today it's

20 common to sell the pump and motor separately, then

21 if you had a standard that effectively required

22 that a pump and motor also be sold with a VSD, you
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1 just further encourage people to buy the -- the

2 two components separately.

3 And so I think our initial thought was

4 that, you know, we had heard that in the lower

5 horsepower range, you know, below, say, 10 or 20

6 horsepower, that it's pretty common for pump

7 manufacturers to sell those pumps with motors.

8 And I look -- I'd be interested in

9 hearing more about whether that's the case or not.

10 But it's -- also I think any data that DOE has

11 gathered at this point about different market

12 segments and -- and whether pumps are sold as bare

13 shaft pumps or pumps with motors, I think would --

14 would help to answer that question about, is there

15 an opportunity for some market segment to set a

16 standard that would drive sales of -- of packages

17 that include a VSD.

18 So I think I do -- I agree with your

19 point, Mark, that I think circulators and -- is a

20 separate topic from kind of extended products for

21 other -- other pump types.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: I feel like we're
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1 starting to kind of go in circles here. And --

2 and -- and I'm wondering what to do about it

3 because it seems like there are aspects of what's

4 being said that have relevance maybe and that

5 maybe they're of -- I'm thinking that maybe it's

6 about time for us to move on.

7 MR. ADIN: Well --

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve.

9 MR. ADIN: Oh, go ahead, Steve.

10 MR. ROSENSTOCK: I'm sorry. And I -- I

11 would suggest at some point that maybe we do a

12 couple of non-binding straw votes to see the sense

13 of the committee at this point after the -- for

14 example, one of the straw votes would be bare

15 pump, bare pump and motor --

16 (Off the record)

17 MR. BROOKMAN: I think it's --

18 (Off the record)

19 MR. ROSENSTOCK: It's a scoping issue

20 but we have to decide on the scope. Otherwise,

21 we're just going to keep going round in circles

22 and circles.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah.

2 MR. ROSENSTOCK: And more circles.

3 MR. ADIN: So if I could, just to offer

4 a sense of where I -- I think DOE would stand on

5 this particular issue at this point.

6 And getting back to the original

7 question we asked about, with respect to testing I

8 think that, for our purposes, has largely been

9 answered by what Greg said, that there's a good

10 chance we're going to see a draft test method in

11 the near term, which would be very helpful.

12 So that -- that kind of answers that

13 question I think as far as our concerns regarding

14 timing on test-related issues.

15 But more broadly, when it comes to

16 scope, my impression is that it seems like we

17 don't really have quite enough data to say how

18 feasible, at least if we were going to go beyond a

19 pump less motor, how feasible that really is at

20 this standpoint.

21 We need -- there's probably some more

22 data we need to gather before the next meeting
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1 that'll -- that'll inform us of that.

2 But, I mean, I'm sure we all have an

3 opinion about it. And we can, at least based on

4 each of our individual understandings of how the

5 market works, to say --

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Do --

7 MR. ADIN: -- what we feel about it.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Do you have additional

9 slides that you wish to present --

10 MR. ADIN: I do.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: -- at this time?

12 MR. ADIN: So, I mean, they kind of get

13 into more the specific issues of testing that I

14 don't know that we necessarily need to get into

15 today.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

17 MR. ADIN: So it just kind of goes

18 through the options of how these things will be

19 tested. But again, I think that's a little beyond

20 what we really wanted to talk about at this

21 particular stage. Yeah.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary.
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1 MR. FERNSTROM: I have just one last

2 high level comment. Regardless of the European

3 lots, I don't think we ought to exclude from

4 consideration pumps, relatively low horsepower

5 pumps, that are sold with motors off the shelf.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Uh-huh.

7 MR. FERNSTROM: I don't believe those

8 ought to be excluded from our consideration. And

9 I don't think it's that big a stretch to take the

10 current proposed test standard and substitute for

11 the mechanical power the measured electrical power

12 drawn by the motor that is sold with that product

13 in the market.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary, I was wondering

15 with what I've heard from manufacturers as they

16 refer to this as apples and oranges, is thinking

17 about circulators kind of in sequence, that the

18 scope of this negotiation perhaps would not

19 include circulators and they would be handled as a

20 separate rule-making matter, or they -- they're

21 seeing them in the context of Lot 11 and being

22 prepared to deal with Lot 11.
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1 I was wondering how you feel about that.

2 MR. FERNSTROM: That's -- I think you've

3 correctly characterized the position. We're

4 talking about losing years of opportunity here for

5 a product that's in market, been in the market for

6 a long time, has a significant energy impact, and

7 isn't that difficult to accommodate. It's not as

8 difficult as it's sounding.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: The folks that are --

10 that seem to be in the position to write this

11 standard seem to think it's pretty difficult to

12 write the test procedure.

13 MR. FERNSTROM: Yeah, and I can't

14 understand why.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

16 MR. STARR: This is Louis Starr. And

17 yeah, I mean, I get the feeling that there's been

18 an acceptance of Lot 11. And there isn't an

19 impetus to develop a test standard because they

20 don't -- the same reason we don't have information

21 on circulators, they don't want to be regulated

22 because we provide the information that would
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1 allow the regulation to happen.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah.

3 MR. STARR: I -- I guess my point of

4 view is we should look at what the opportunities

5 are. And DOE's developed a test procedure that's

6 -- some of the staff they have down here is

7 technical staff. So use technical staff to develop

8 a test procedure for what Gary's talking about.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah.

10 MR. STARR: And so I don't think it

11 should be based upon what industry has available

12 right now. If -- if there's a -- if there's an

13 incentive not to develop a test procedure, then,

14 of course, you wouldn't want to develop one if you

15 didn't want there to be a test procedure.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. So I just --

17 MR. STARR: It's circular.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: -- a moment ago described

19 what I think I've heard from industry surrounding

20 circulator pumps, that kind of logic of separating

21 it and dealing with it separately.

22 And so hearing what I think I've heard
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1 from the advocacy folks is that, gee, it ought to

2 be easy enough to just measure electrical input.

3 And -- and then what I have not heard from anybody

4 else in this room is why that's not feasible.

5 Bob.

6 MR. BARBOUR: Bob Barbour from TACO.

7 One of the things -- I don't want to repeat

8 everything that we said yesterday.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. Right.

10 MR. BARBOUR: But I don't -- I think

11 we're sort of falling back into that same loop of

12 -- of --

13 MR. BROOKMAN: I'm hoping --

14 MR. BARBOUR: -- doing that.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: -- we can move beyond

16 that, Bob.

17 MR. BARBOUR: And so was I. But

18 apparently, we don't seem to be able to.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Uh-huh. Oh, but we're

20 not clarifying -- you know, it doesn't seem like

21 we're taking the next step. We're just repeating

22 the same statements.
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1 MR. BARBOUR: I'm -- I'm -- and I'm

2 trying to avoid that.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah, okay.

4 MR. BARBOUR: However, I don't -- I

5 don't believe that, you know, when you start

6 looking at circulators, for example, I don't

7 believe that we, as a group, understand a load --

8 load profile.

9 I don't believe we understand the

10 application of the product necessarily as far as

11 to -- to prove whether or not there is the energy

12 savings that -- that Gary thinks there is.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: We don't have the data.

14 (Off the record)

15 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: -- himself asked

16 yesterday for the data.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah, we don't have the

18 data.

19 MR. BARBOUR: And we don't have it.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. Okay.

21 MR. BARBOUR: So for us to be able to

22 sit here and say, yes, this is -- this is correct
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1 or incorrect, is -- is really not proper.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary, before you do --

3 wait. I think we asked this question yesterday,

4 and our consultants said they had data from two

5 manufacturers.

6 Is -- this morning I believe it was Al

7 said that he believes that at least three

8 manufacturers said that they submitted this data.

9 And I'm wondering, irrespective, is

10 there -- we left this with an open question

11 yesterday -- is there a way to get this additional

12 data you're needing?

13 MR. WEINTRAUB: So, Dan Weintraub,

14 Navigant. Alison had said yesterday that she

15 didn't think there was enough to aggregate. We

16 went back and checked what we had. We have data

17 from three. And whether that's appropriate to --

18 yeah, so we went back and checked, you're right --

19 whether that's appropriate to aggregate is going

20 to be a question that we're going to have to work

21 through.

22 But, you know, as they stated already,
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1 HI stated, there is a limited number of

2 manufacturers of circulators out there. And so

3 working with HI to collect that extra data, the --

4 the data for the remaining industry, could be a --

5 obviously a path forward to have the data.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: So that's great. And

7 then presumably if that could be done

8 expeditiously then you could gather that data,

9 aggregate that data, do what you need to do with

10 it, and make it available to the committee

11 members, the working group members, quickly.

12 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yeah.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Before the next meeting

14 so they can all begin to do their own analyses.

15 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yes. But there are --

16 you know, there are impediments to quickly

17 gathering data from any manufacturers. We have

18 not gone through legal --

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah.

20 MR. WEINTRAUB: -- agreements for non21 disclosure.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. Okay. You want to
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1 keep going, Bob.

2 MR. BARBOUR: This is Bob Barbour again.

3 One question that I have is Navigant's necessarily

4 understanding of the application of the product.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Uh-huh.

6 MR. BARBOUR: And the control mechanisms

7 that are associated with the use circulators.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: You think they don't

9 understand the way it works properly?

10 MR. BARBOUR: I have my question, yeah,

11 that's

12 --

13 MR. BROOKMAN: So you want to meet with

14 them and sort it out? Maybe you could --

15 MR. BARBOUR: We've met with them

16 before. We'd be happy to meet with them again.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Maybe you could do it

18 over lunch and just see what they understand and

19 don't understand.

20 MR. BARBOUR: Okay.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. I'm serious.

22 Because let's -- let's make sure that everybody's
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1 got the same level of understanding. And we don't

2 want everyone to be as ignorant as I am.

3 MR. BARBOUR: I wouldn't call you

4 ignorant.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: No, I promise you.

6 Louis.

7 MR. STARR: Yeah, Louis Starr with NEEA.

8 Would it be possible for the DOE technical staff

9 to look into this issue about how easy it is to do

10 what Gary's suggesting with that test procedure?

11 Is there someone that can answer this?

12 I mean, I guess Doug asked a couple

13 times, what exactly is it can't be done, there

14 isn't any answers. So can we get someone that's

15 either Navigant or someone else to look in this

16 and see is what he's talking about pie in the sky;

17 is it, he doesn't know what he's talking about;

18 can we get some kind of relevance on it? That's

19 the technical support that that would be looking

20 for.

21 MR. ADIN: Yes, the answer to that is

22 yes.
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1 MR. STARR: Okay.

2 MR. ADIN: We can do that.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Do you have someone in

4 mind?

5 MR. ADIN: Yeah.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Or you can find someone?

7 MR. ADIN: Yes.

8 (Off the record)

9 MR. BROOKMAN: So we can do that. I

10 want to get Mark and Al both here and then I'm

11 coming back to you, Gary.

12 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel from Xylem.

13 I -- I just wanted to -- to make it clear that,

14 from Xylem's perspective, we are not opposed to

15 circulator regulations. Okay.

16 So we're -- we're not -- you know, we're

17 not trying to stonewall this. We're not trying to

18 stall. What we're saying is we need some more

19 time to figure it out.

20 And -- and just furthermore, we think to

21 meet the timeline that's being proposed, the best

22 way to meet -- to have some achievable goals would
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1 be to proceed without including circulators.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Is Xylem or is the

3 industry at large, are you stuck on the pathway

4 for your current test method or might you be open

5 to a novel approach that would be easier to do and

6 could be maybe effectuated rather quickly?

7 MR. HANDZEL: I don't think we're stuck

8 on a test method. One of the things we found out

9 is every one of us has our own test method.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Ah.

11 MR. HANDZEL: You know, so that's why we

12 need to get together and come --

13 (Off the record)

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. That's

15 understandable.

16 MR. HANDZEL: Let Al expand upon it

17 further.

18 MR. HUBER: Doug, this is Al Huber. I

19 think we need to understand. What Gary's talking

20 about is an ECM motor. Correct? Gary, is that

21 correct?

22 MR. FERNSTROM: Yeah.
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1 (Off the record)

2 MR. FERNSTROM: My -- my interest is in

3 the ECM motor --

4 MR. HUBER: Let --

5 MR. FERNSTROM: -- putting aside the

6 complexity --

7 MR. HUBER: I understand that. Now, let

8 me make sure everybody understands, that varies

9 the speed. So what load profile are we going to

10 use? That's the reason we all have a test standard

11 is because we don't really know how you're going

12 to operate.

13 MR. FERNSTROM: How --

14 MR. HUBER: Do we --

15 MR. FERNSTROM: How --

16 MR. HUBER: Wait -- wait a minute. Now,

17 you talked plenty, Gary. Let somebody else talk

18 for a minute.

19 Are we going to say we're going to do it

20 at full speed and that's how we're going to judge

21 the efficiency? How are we going to do that? I

22 mean, you can effectively do the same thing with a
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1 VFD. But you're requiring -- you're -- what you're

2 -- what you're wanting to do is require the pump

3 manufacturers only to manufacture their pump with

4 ECM motors. That's basically where he's headed.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Let me ask you regarding

6 the test procedure application, if you have

7 variable speed motors, couldn't you simply say, as

8 a test protocol, we want you to hit these points?

9 Wouldn't that be a legitimate way to measure and

10 test?

11 MR. HUBER: It -- it would if you were -

12 - if you were -- yeah, it would. It would.

13 Honestly, it would. I'm not saying that it would

14 not. But that's the reason there is no test

15 standard because some people manufacture different

16 types of circulators.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Uh-huh.

18 MR. HUBER: And they're not all with ECM

19 motors.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

21 MR. HUBER: Now, right now the industry

22 is -- is moving rapidly to ECM motors. And most
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1 of the major manufacturers are headed there anyway

2 because the market is driving it --

3 (Off the record)

4 MR. HUBER: -- not -- not regulation.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Right.

6 MR. HUBER: The market -- and I want to

7 say one thing. I want to make this very clear to

8 Louis, that Hydraulic Institute nor any of its

9 members are not trying to stonewall anything to do

10 with circulators.

11 We have never reported on circulators.

12 They're not part of our data stream. We don't

13 have the information. And we're not trying to

14 stonewall. The only people in this room that have

15 given any information on circulators are the pump

16 manufacturers. Period.

17 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Well --

18 MR. HUBER: And we gave it to Navigant.

19 And quite frankly, Navigant didn't even ask the

20 right questions about circulators because they

21 didn't break it down by horsepower. They didn't

22 break it down by head and flow.
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1 So there's no way to know when the --

2 even if they aggregate the information, you're

3 still not going to have the information you're

4 looking for.

5 MR. STARR: Well, part of it, you know,

6 it's just -- I did a literature research to see

7 who has this thing. And it's called circulators.

8 And there's Armstrong, Xylem, Grundfos, and TACO.

9 And there was only two information route and now

10 there's three. So there's at least one person

11 that hasn't provided information.

12 Now, admittedly only Xylem, Grundfos,

13 and TACO are here. So I assume that's probably

14 the three people that provided information. So

15 Armstrong though is a large manufacturer and, you

16 know, there

17 --

18 (Off the record)

19 MR. HUBER: Well, if you take the three,

20 you have, in my opinion -- and I'm not one of

21 them, so I -- I'll express my opinion and you can

22 take it for what it's worth -- you'll have 90
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1 percent of -- 80 to 90 percent of the marketplace.

2 MR. STARR: That seems like enough

3 information to aggregate --

4 (Off the record)

5 MR. HUBER: Well, I'm just telling you -

6 -

7 MR. BROOKMAN: So that's --

8 MR. HUBER: -- from my knowledge.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: -- that's useful. Okay.

10 So, hey, you know, I like this last

11 exchange. We gained some ground on that. We

12 gained some clarity. That was very useful. And

13 in that spirit, I'm going to reward you with a

14 break.

15 (Off the record)

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. It's now -- it's

17 now almost five minutes after 10:00. We've really

18 -- we've really started to gain ground here on

19 some of these really fundamental issues I believe.

20 It's almost five minutes after 10:00.

21 Let's take a 15-minute break. We'll resume at

22 10:20. And -- and we'll return to addressing the
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1 issues on this list 10:20.

2 (Whereupon, at approximately 10:02 a.m.

3 the proceedings were in recess.)

4 MR. BROOKMAN: So let's resume. How

5 many joining us via the Net? Eight. Well, those

6 of you joining us via the Net, welcome. We hope

7 you're finding this productive. We're making

8 progress here, and we'll continue to do that as we

9 resume.

10 I'm looking at the list that we created

11 at the beginning of the day. We haven't finished

12 the ground rules yet, but that's going to take a

13 little more consideration of other issues. We

14 have made good progress discussing and clarifying

15 the scope, that's not done, but I wanted to move

16 now to the third item, which is "List of Data and

17 Analysis Needs" and see if we can get some

18 additional thoughts on what that would include.

19 Joanna?

20 MS. MAUER: I just wanted to ask a

21 question, which is whether those of us who are not

22 manufacturers and therefore we're not interviewed
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1 by Navigant could see the list of questions that

2 was asked of manufacturers?

3 MR. BROOKMAN: The interview protocol or

4 whatever it is?

5 MS. MAUER: Yeah, the surveys.

6 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: The surveys.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: The survey.

8 But she just wants the template.

9 You just want the template, right? You

10 don't want the data.

11 MS. MAUER: Right. Right. Just the

12 questions.

13 MR. ADIN: Yeah. So I'll let the team

14 correct me if I'm wrong, but those survey

15 questions are normally included in the TSD when we

16 write one, so yes.

17 MS. MAUER: Okay, but you -- oh, okay.

18 MR. ADIN: We haven't published a TSD,

19 but, yes, we can provide that kind of information.

20 MS. MAUER: Okay.

21 MR. ADIN: We should be able to do that.

22 MS. MAUER: That would be great.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So do you want to

2 set this up because I'm not -- the list of data

3 and analysis needs, when I spoke with many of you

4 in writing the convening report for this

5 negotiation, you had some rather specific data

6 worries, or that is to say, how the data and

7 analysis that DOE typically does, how that kind of

8 function or functionality could make its way into

9 this negotiation. And I just want to have some

10 discussion surrounding -- that was mostly from the

11 advocates that I spoke with that are quite

12 familiar with the traditional DOE rulemaking

13 process.

14 So I just want to kick off this

15 conversation and see what you anticipate the data

16 analysis needs so we can get that as clear as

17 possible.

18 And, Joanna, I'm looking at you. Do you

19 want to start us off?

20 MS. WALTNER: Do you want --

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Or Meg? Please. Yes.

22 MS. WALTNER: Well, I think as a
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1 starting point, we would be interested in seeing

2 from DOE what you have broken up by pump type and

3 horsepower, then data on how pumps are sold by the

4 manufacturer, so whether they're sold as an

5 integrated product with a motor. If you have it,

6 it seems like there might be a middle category of

7 how pumps are sold, so there is the integrated

8 product but then sometimes also a manufacturer

9 supplying a pump and a motor together, but maybe

10 they're spec'ing the pump, the pump is not

11 actually attached to the motor when it's being

12 sold.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: It's shipped as an

14 independent pump.

15 MS. WALTNER: Right, being shipped

16 together with the motor, but not necessarily

17 attached together, and then pumps that are sold as

18 the bare pump end.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: It's a package, but it's

20 not connected, it's not at the factory.

21 MS. WALTNER: I don't even know if I

22 would go as far to say that it's a package, but
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1 where you're selling -- yesterday you talked about

2 that you broadly -- that sometimes you'll get a

3 spec for a motor that you'll supply, but it may

4 not even be a motor that you're manufacturing, but

5 you'll supply both the pump and the motor to the

6 customer. Is that an accurate description?

7 MR. HUBER: That is correct. We do

8 supply motors that we do not manufacture.

9 MS. WALTNER: Right, and that aren't

10 necessarily attached to the pump when you're

11 supplying them.

12 MR. HUBER: Well, sometimes they are,

13 sometimes they're what we call remote coupled, but

14 they have a coupling between them, but they're on

15 a common base plate, so it depends on what you

16 mean by "attached."

17 MS. WALTNER: Okay. Well, I guess, so -

18 -

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Pardon me for

20 interrupting, Al. Most of what you ship is on a

21 common base plate, that is --

22 MR. HUBER: Yeah.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: -- this thing you ship,

2 these parts are well understood whether they're

3 connected up or whether they need to be wired

4 onsite or added the control mechanism.

5 MR. HUBER: Yeah, it's fairly

6 understood, but I think you need to be clear

7 because there are close coupled, which are

8 basically the motor shaft becomes the pump shaft.

9 MS. WALTNER: Okay. And so I think --

10 MR. HUBER: There is that type. And

11 then there are various types, and all those are

12 shown in the Lot 11. The variations of those are

13 shown, if you go back to that slide and look at

14 it. But one of the things that you've got to do

15 is you've got to break horsepowers down, and I

16 know that or I honestly believe -- and I think

17 some of these other guys can tell you better than

18 I can -- is that when Navigant asked us

19 specifically -- let's go back to circulators

20 because that's been a topic of discussion, they

21 did not ask us to break it down by horsepower. So

22 therefore some of the things are sold and
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1 circulators go up to 1, 2, and 3 horsepower, which

2 are already being covered by Lot 11, by the way.

3 So the only thing is, those that are below that

4 are not being covered at this -- that's what we

5 suggested, at this point. So any analysis that

6 doesn't show horsepower and have it accurately

7 segregated is not going to be worthwhile.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Meg, keep going.

9 MS. WALTNER: Yeah. So I completely

10 agree with your point there, Al, and what we're

11 asking for here to be clear is data and horsepower

12 bands and I think at this point, to whatever

13 granularity you have about how those pumps are

14 sold, we would like that data by pump type and

15 horsepower band. Then also by pump type and

16 horsepower band, we would like to see the unit

17 shipment data, the connected load, and whatever

18 you have in terms of an energy use estimate and/or

19 duty cycle estimate, which are related obviously.

20 So total energy use estimate for that pump type

21 and horsepower band.

22 MR. ADIN: Okay. I think that's all
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1 pretty clear. The one item I wasn't clear on was

2 connected load. What did you mean by that?

3 MS. WALTNER: So the total kilowatt.

4 MR. ADIN: Oh, okay.

5 MS. WALTNER: Kilowatts installed by

6 pump type and horsepower band, so not the energy

7 use estimate that's projected based on whatever

8 your load profile is.

9 MR. ADIN: Okay.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Go ahead, Steve.

11 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock. I

12 said this before, but, again, percentage of market

13 that's being of pumps, again, manufacturers might

14 not be able to do this since they're selling bare

15 pumps, number or percentage of pumps served driven

16 by gas or diesel engines or steam turbines, and

17 then again an estimate of overall capacity of

18 those drivers and possibly at least beginning

19 estimated annual energy use in BTUS or trillion

20 BTUs or whatever the fossil fuel metric is going

21 to be, again, just so -- and then hopefully, as a

22 comparison to see what percentage -- within
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1 whatever scope of -- obviously, to get back to the

2 scope, within the scope of the products being

3 analyzed, because obviously, especially the

4 horsepower limit, will make a difference in terms

5 of the percentages and the energy usage. Thank

6 you.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Other thoughts on data

8 and analysis needs?

9 Yes, Joanna.

10 MS. MAUER: This is getting a little

11 farther ahead, but as I said yesterday, I think

12 before we can actually start talking about

13 standard levels, it would be very useful to have

14 preliminary LCC and NIA results from DOE.

15 MR. ADIN: And I can elaborate on that

16 one a little bit based on what I've learned from

17 the team. Most of the data that we have that's

18 gone that far is limited to the Lot 11 and really

19 just the bare pump type stuff. So we might have

20 enough to provide at least some very preliminary

21 LCC and possibly even NIA numbers, well, hopefully

22 by the next meeting. That's a possibility. But
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1 to the extent we can do that, we will. I'll put

2 it that way.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. And when you say

4 supply by the next meeting, I hope that means, I

5 hope that means, that it will be supplied in

6 advance of the next meeting, it will be supplied 3

7 days, 5 days in advance, you know, at least plain

8 meeting for folks at a minimum.

9 MR. ADIN: I think -- so I'll just state

10 generally that when it comes to distribution of

11 data to the Working Group, it's not necessarily at

12 the meeting, we'll distribute it as early as we're

13 comfortable that the data is ready. So, yeah,

14 electronically in a SharePoint site or whatever it

15 is that we're using as a means of distribution.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: And just to be clear on

17 this -- Jeremiah, maybe this is you -- when data

18 becomes available, when analysis is ready for

19 distribution, will there be an e-mail blast that

20 says this stuff is now available on the

21 SharePoint?

22 MR. FREEMAN: Yeah.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Okay.

2 Joanna, yes.

3 MS. MAUER: If I could just ask a

4 clarifying question. So in the framework

5 document, DOE laid out a kind of preliminary

6 coverage proposal that was similar to Lot 11 but

7 included some additional pump types that are not

8 included in Lot 11. For example, the double

9 suction is one that we encouraged DOE to look at.

10 Do you have data or analysis for the same

11 horsepower range, but these other pump types that

12 are not included in Lot 11?

13 MR. ADIN: I can't tell you for sure.

14 That's honestly something that Alison would

15 probably have to answer, and unfortunately she's

16 not here, but I will check on that and get back to

17 you as soon as we can. I mean, certainly to the

18 extent that we have sufficient data to provide

19 that kind of analysis early on, we will, but we

20 may not have it.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve.

22 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock. I'm
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1 sorry to repeat myself from earlier, but again

2 percentage of pumps within the scope, whatever the

3 scope is, that are sold with integrated controls.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Yeah. Other data

5 and analysis needs?

6 Al, do you have a question?

7 MR. HUBER: No, I was trying to

8 understand what he was saying.

9 MR. ROSENSTOCK: From the OEMs, from the

10 manufacturers, how many -- whatever the scope of -

11 -

12 MR. HANDZEL: Define "integrated,"

13 though, Steve.

14 MR. ROSENSTOCK: What?

15 MR. HANDZEL: Define "integrated."

16 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Looking like that. I'm

17 sorry. It's in the package, that it's not a third

18 party putting the controls --

19 MR. HANDZEL: It's a third party

20 variable speed drive or one that's built into a

21 motor by the pump manufacturer. That's what I was

22 trying to get a clarification.
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1 MR. ROSENSTOCK: That's shipped by the

2 manufacturer. Either way.

3 MR. HUBER: Well, I can say this, and I

4 think my memory serves correctly, that they did

5 ask for all those pumps that were in their

6 framework document from us. We provided that.

7 They also asked us, How many were sold bare pump?

8 How many were sold with motors? How many are sold

9 with something else? And how many are sold with

10 VSDs? Okay?

11 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: I got it.

12 MR. HUBER: So we gave them that. Now,

13 what they've done with it I cannot tell you.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Hopefully they've

15 done something good with it.

16 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Aggregated result would

17 be helpful.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. Okay. Okay. Do

19 you think we've covered it?

20 MR. ADIN: I think. I'll just make a

21 general statement and maybe this is already

22 implied by what I said earlier. So we will do our
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1 best to supply all the data that everyone has just

2 described here, but we will also try to figure out

3 as early as possible what our constraints are,

4 like which data we just don't have. Some of it we

5 may have and we can put together aggregated data,

6 and that's fine, but we'll try and let everyone

7 here know what we're missing as early as possible

8 so we can collect it and make sure we try and have

9 some final products by next time.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis.

11 MR. STARR: So I think we talked about

12 some of the technical questions, but the one was

13 in terms of modifying the test procedure to

14 account for motor efficiency. The other thing, I

15 think we need to maybe look in on the technical

16 side, and whoever is doing that other information,

17 is the thing when we talk about these circulators,

18 we're talking about single-phase and the

19 difference between PSC and ECM motors, and we're

20 thinking about just testing at 100 percent and

21 just establishing if there is going to be a

22 difference in the energy use of those two cases,
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1 and that would be kind of what Gary is talking

2 about. So before we go any further, we just

3 establish that there is less energy usage between

4 those two cases.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: ECM and?

6 MR. STARR: PSC.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: PC.

8 MR. STARR: PSC. And just run them at

9 100 percent and see if there is a difference. And

10 it has to be single-phase power.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Gary?

12 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary, California

13 IOUs. Let me elaborate on that. My experience

14 has been when you go from a pump powered by a

15 single- phase induction motor to a pump powered by

16 a permanent magnet ECM motor, run at the same

17 speed, run at full-load speed regardless of not

18 varying the speed, which you might have the

19 capability to do, the PM-ECM motor is

20 categorically better than the single-phase

21 induction motor.

22 So there are two opportunities here.
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1 One is to go at the same speed, like I just

2 alluded to, or vary the speed and gain the really

3 significant advantage of the affinity law of

4 benefits. We may not be in a place yet where we

5 can deal with what the load is in order to assess

6 the affinity law of benefits, but we can certainly

7 assess the full- speed, full-load benefits. So I

8 would like to see that done for fractional

9 horsepower motors, pumps, circulators, and for

10 single-phase products into the 1-, 2-, 3-

11 horsepower range.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Louis.

13 MR. STARR: What that does is

14 essentially we know the unit is sold. You can

15 establish to some extent what the energy saved

16 would be associated with that. There are a few

17 assumptions that then would have to be made. But

18 anyway, it establishes what the opportunity for

19 federal or energy savings throughout the U.S. So

20 that's what we're getting at with that

21 information.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Chuck.
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1 MR. POWERS: Without going too far with

2 this, in the European arena, they spent a lot of

3 time looking at all that, what Louis just brought

4 up. Okay?

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Speak louder, Chuck.

6 MR. POWERS: They've studied all that.

7 There has been reports on it. It's all published.

8 You can get access to it. And what they ended up

9 resolving was if the pump could be improved by X,

10 which was a very, very small amount. The

11 permanent magnet and the VFD far exceeded whatever

12 levels they wanted to try to achieve, so they

13 looked at it and said, "We're wasting our time,"

14 because if you want to focus just on the pump, we

15 can get a little percent out of it, whatever, but

16 the permanent magnet is a combination with the VFD

17 drive because you have to run both, far exceed the

18 values they were looking for because that's the

19 way the market was leading. So why waste time on

20 that product because we're going to be there?

21 Now, you can get data again, they have a

22 lot of data that's there, and you can regurgitate
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1 it. Now, granted, it's a bigger market, a lot of

2 different things, but I sometimes wonder, why add

3 it to the test standard if it's not going to add

4 value?

5 MR. FERNSTROM: Well -- this is Gary --

6 I want to waste time on it because in my mind the

7 pump "is" the pump and the motor, it's not just a

8 pump. I agree with you, the opportunity of the

9 pump head alone is probably minimal, but looking

10 at the way we've defined this, I think, in the

11 single-phase, 1- , 2-, 3-horsepower product that

12 you sell as an integral product, the pump "is" the

13 pump and the motor. So if we can make an

14 improvement in the motor, we've made an

15 improvement in the pump.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Louis.

17 MR. STARR: And actually Steve

18 Rosenstock can speak to this. 90.1, ASHRAE 90.1,

19 in 2013, the most recent standard, has basically

20 made fractional horsepower fan motors, they have

21 to be ECM motors. So I think ASHRAE determined

22 that there are some energy savings.
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1 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock. I

2 actually again for fan motors, they have to --

3 well, depending -- for many applications of the

4 fan motors, anything above a 1/4-horsepower has to

5 have some sort of variable -- that would have to

6 be an ECM motor, it just has to have some sort of

7 control on the speed to save energy. I don't

8 believe they -- there might be one application

9 where they said ECM motors, but for a lot of other

10 fan applications, you have to go to Chapter 6.

11 I'm sorry. They have to have a drive above a

12 certain horsepower, and for one of the

13 applications, it's above 1/4, another application

14 it's 5-horsepower, but you look in there and

15 pretty much almost all fans are going to have to

16 have drive controls on them. Again, that's just

17 fans.

18 MR. STARR: Anyway, I think there are

19 some opportunities to certainly look at it.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Mark?

21 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel, from Xylem.

22 Just again another one of those gray areas that
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1 we're kind of getting into, but the motors that

2 you're describing are not necessarily widely

3 available for centrifugal pump usage. Okay?

4 MR. ROSENSTOCK: That's why I said fans.

5 So that's why I said fans.

6 MR. HANDZEL: So I hear what you're

7 saying, Louis. I hear what you're saying, Steve.

8 But certainly we're all making some or getting

9 some somewhere, but I can tell you that in U.S.

10 North American motor manufacturers, they are not

11 readily available for pump applications.

12 MR. STARR: Well, I was just saying all

13 three of these -- I mean, everybody -- I don't

14 know about Armstrong, but Xylem, you have an eco

15 cert that has this thing? Grundfos definitely has

16 one.

17 MR. HANDZEL: Yes, that's correct.

18 That's a motor that we manufacture. So, yes.

19 MR. STARR: So it's products that are

20 available on the market.

21 MR. HUBER: So, now, that's a misnomer,

22 and I'll tell you why. He's manufacturing his own
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1 motor. Grundfos is manufacturing their own motor.

2 These other guys are manufacturing their own

3 motors. That's why they're available to them. But

4 if you go out -- and I've tried, I've gone out in

5 the marketplace to the major motor manufacturers,

6 and I cannot get what I need, they're not

7 available. So if I want to get in that market,

8 now I have to manufacture motors.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: What were you looking for

10 that you couldn't get?

11 MR. HUBER: An ECM motor. So the only

12 way I could get into that market was if I

13 manufactured my own motor. Now I have to go to a

14 motor --

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Because there is so much

16 demand for ECM, you can't -- or they're not

17 meeting the spec that you want or --

18 MR. HUBER: Some of both, some of both,

19 and they're just not there. U.S. has got one, and

20 we looked at it, and so have some of the other

21 guys, but it's so noisy, nobody can use it.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Go ahead.
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1 MR. ADIN: Can I raise just one more

2 issue related to this topic generally? And we've

3 talked a lot about potential energy savings and

4 availability of the motors and feasibility of

5 converting from PSC to ECM, but the element I

6 haven't heard anyone mention yet is cost. So is

7 that something that we could --

8 MR. HANDZEL: We're not even into that

9 area yet, so --

10 MR. ADIN: Yeah. Okay.

11 MR. HANDZEL: But that will be part of

12 the life-cycle analysis, Lucas, because, I mean,

13 clearly there is a substantial cost factor

14 involved in ECM motors.

15 MR. ADIN: Right. And that's why I

16 raised it. I mean, if we're going to talk about

17 this next time and talk about this in terms of

18 coverage and feasibility and all that, we need

19 something to put on the table and talk about.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Go ahead, Bob. You're

21 next.

22 MR. BARBOUR: Bob Barbour, from TACO.
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1 As a rough estimate from TACO, I would say it's

2 like twice the cost of the pump. That's probably

3 a little maybe on the low side, but depending on

4 the pump jacks you look at, and I'm only talking

5 right now about the really small 1/25-horsepower

6 type pumps, I'm not talking about the 1/2-horse,

7 the 3/4- horse, how those motor costs are going to

8 impact, if you can get them. There is a big "if"

9 there, I just --

10 MR. BROOKMAN: To convert between a

11 standard motor pump and an ECM motor pump.

12 MR. BARBOUR: Yeah, ECM.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Joanna.

14 MS. MAUER: So cost is certainly an

15 important issue. I think, as Mark said, that

16 would be something that would be captured in the

17 LCC analysis, and I think something that we would

18 expect that DOE would analyze as part of the

19 engineering analysis for this rulemaking?

20 MR. ADIN: We would, but I don't think

21 we have much of that yet for the kinds of products

22 that we're talking about right now.
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1 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel. There is no

2 -- Navigant didn't ask for any information from us

3 about that, so there is no readily available data

4 source that is going to be produced unless they

5 have some other outside method to get that.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary.

7 MR. FERNSTROM: So I know we can't talk

8 about cost in this group, but going down to my

9 local plumbing supply to buy a circulator, I'm

10 looking at maybe 150 bucks, and if I want to get a

11 better one, it might cost me three or four hundred

12 dollars. So that's twice the cost right on, but

13 these things don't cost a lot. So if you look at

14 that incremental cost relative to the value of the

15 energy savings, which is what I hope we'll do in

16 this proceeding, we may find that the energy17 saving value exceeds that incremental cost and

18 it's worth paying the extra money for it.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Yes, Bob.

20 MR. BARBOUR: This is Bob Barbour again.

21 I think we need to see the life-cycle analysis to

22 show us that because I don't think we can sit here
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1 and -- I mean, I'm not sure where that benchmark

2 is going to be drawn as far as how many years. I

3 know we have an idea ourselves what we think it

4 might be, but I would like to see the actual

5 analysis, the load profile that's used for that

6 analysis, et cetera, that has to go into that

7 because it's not as simple as looking at a full8 speed pump running for 5,000 hours.

9 MR. FERNSTROM: So I totally agree,

10 that's what I would like to see, too, and as a

11 consensus, I hope we can agree to pursue looking

12 at that rather than summarily dismiss it as

13 something that we're not going to even consider.

14 MR. BARBOUR: Okay. We don't disagree

15 with that. You know, one of the things, though,

16 that I said yesterday was I really felt that

17 circulators, and I'm talking the real 1/25-

18 horsepower, the small stuff, really needed to be

19 under a separate rulemaking because we didn't have

20 a test standard in place for this. I don't

21 believe we have a good picture of the load profile

22 in the U.S.
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1 market with the control mechanisms that

2 are used today in the U.S. market in order to be

3 able to justify making that move at this point to

4 generating a rule for that. However, we are

5 certainly, as a company -- and I think I can speak

6 for virtually anyone else that's in the

7 circulator, the real fractional or small

8 fractional horsepower circulators, we're all

9 moving toward ECM. There is absolutely no doubt

10 in my mind that every one of us is doing that.

11 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay. So all I wanted

12 is to come to agreement that we collectively

13 believe we ought to take a look at it.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: I think that seems like a

15 reasonable thing. Right?

16 Lucas, do you want to follow on?

17 MR. ADIN: Well, I mean, I don't have

18 anything to add to that. We agree that it's

19 something we should look at, and we have some

20 data, pieces of data, that we would like to

21 collect that will help us discuss this in more

22 detail hopefully in the next meeting.
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1 And so I was going to kind of run down

2 the list of things we talked about --

3 MR. BROOKMAN: I think we're almost

4 there.

5 Steve. Yeah.

6 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Again, I'll agree with

7 Gary, and I think, again, especially for the

8 people who haven't seen some of the DOE's analysis

9 with other rules, typically, again, once they

10 decide on some sort of metric, efficiency metric,

11 they decide, okay, here is the baseline that's out

12 there in the marketplace right now, level 1, 2, 3,

13 4, 5 max tech, typically Level 1, let's just say

14 they don't choose a technology, they describe what

15 technology could be used, but Level 1 is supposed

16 to represent, let's say, a 5-percent improvement

17 over the baseline, Level 2 is a 10-percent.

18 Again, it's more -- maybe it's semantics, but it's

19 a way of saying you decide what technology you

20 want to use to meet that level, we're not going to

21 say you have to use Technology X or Technology Y,

22 they might give an example, but it's your
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1 decision, your design, in terms of meeting that

2 efficiency improvement. So, again, I know we're

3 talking a lot about ECMs, but there are other

4 technologies out there, you shouldn't be limited

5 by any rulemaking.

6 MR. ADIN: Right. And that's part of

7 this. What Steve is referring to is what we

8 categorically tend to refer to as the engineering

9 analysis component of the standards rulemaking,

10 and so we look at -- once we've decided which

11 products we're covering, we look at all the

12 different technological options that are available

13 for improving the efficiency of that product, and

14 we do a screening analysis and decide which ones

15 are actually feasible and which ones are just way

16 too expensive, which ones would require materials

17 that just aren't available on the market, which

18 ones actually have been demonstrated to work,

19 there has to be a working prototype at the very

20 least to be able to use it, so things like that.

21 And then once we've screened in,

22 screened out, we have a bunch of screened in
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1 technologies, we come up with suites of

2 technological options we put together and come up

3 with the different percentage energy savings

4 resulting from those combinations, as Steve just

5 described. So just to provide a little bit more

6 background for those in the room who haven't

7 really seen how we do this in detail, but --

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Do you want to -- you

9 said you've kind of made a list?

10 MR. ADIN: So, yeah, I have a list.

11 I've been trying to kind of keep notes as I've

12 gone, but please correct me if I've missed

13 anything.

14 So we have -- and it seems like we have

15 some broad categories of things that we're

16 collecting data on, so I'll kind of go through in

17 that manner. So we have a need for shipment data

18 generally across the types of pumps that we're

19 looking at, and I think we're talking about

20 shipment data -- well, this is inclusive of

21 circulators, fractional horsepower pumps and

22 smaller ones, but broken out by horsepower, pump
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1 type or configuration, connected load, and the

2 configuration in which they're shipped, so motor,

3 or with controls, or whatever it is. So I think

4 that kind of covers the broad shipments aspect,

5 but please let me know if there are other

6 dimensions to that.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Tom.

8 MR. ECKMAN: In that characteristics

9 data -- and I don't know, given the maturity of

10 the test procedure right now, this is an open

11 question because I just don't know -- even if it's

12 a company level, for the bare pump right now, not

13 for the integrated one, is there an existing

14 rating system, performance rating system, that

15 you've established, and was that data collected to

16 develop what the typical pump efficiency is by

17 horsepower or XYZ product type? Or was that just

18 --

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Al.

20 MR. HUBER: No. What we did was collect

21 the efficiency for the Lot 11 pumps. We did a

22 survey. We provided that information and that
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1 data to Navigant, they have it. We have shown it

2 to some of the NGOs, not the raw data, but we've

3 shown some of the results --

4 MR. ECKMAN: The aggregate data.

5 MR. HUBER: The aggregate. And we

6 developed a minimum efficiency index. We were

7 basically mimicking what they did in Europe. So

8 we gathered the data, and we think it's accurate.

9 It's not off sales data, it's off test data, so

10 that it's not some salesman's idea of how

11 efficient his pump is.

12 MR. ECKMAN: Yes.

13 (Laughter.)

14 MR. HUBER: And this was all handled by

15 an independent third party, and we certainly have

16 the data, and we've given that to Navigant, and

17 they have it. But that's all, just Lot 11.

18 That's all. We have not done any other surveys,

19 and there are no efficiency standards, and at this

20 point in time there are no categories.

21 MR. ECKMAN: Right, existing. But is

22 the performance levels that you're reporting there
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1 consistent with the draft testing standard or not?

2 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Absolutely,

3 yes.

4 MR. HUBER: Yes, they are. And I want

5 to say that we've done this, we took the Hydraulic

6 Institute test standard and basically modified it

7 with the help of I guess Navigant has been party

8 to the discussion and part of the Pacific

9 Northwest, so that it would be useable for this

10 type of -- it's been modified --

11 MR. ECKMAN: Efficiency metric.

12 MR. HUBER: Right. And the Committee is

13 almost completed, and that's why they're telling

14 you that they think we can get you a copy probably

15 in January.

16 MR. ECKMAN: Okay.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis?

18 MR. STARR: This is just a question.

19 Did Navigant work on looking at load profiles at

20 all based upon industry type or did that become

21 too much of a -- it would be just interesting to

22 know if they came up with anything on that.
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1 MR. ADIN: I'm told that's something

2 that Alison, at LBNL, is working on, so -- sorry.

3 Just one moment, I'll answer that in just a

4 second.

5 MS. WIDDER: This is Sarah, from PNNL.

6 We were working on this project with LBNL, and

7 we're collecting field data. I will agree with a

8 lot of the manufacturers, that it is very diverse,

9 and sometimes pumps can -- a specific equipment

10 class or type of pump could go into a variety of

11 applications, which makes developing

12 representative load profiles difficult, but we are

13 trying to collect field data from specific

14 industries that might be most represented by the

15 scope of pumps that were initially proposed for

16 consideration. So some of that data would be

17 available, and we might be able to at least start

18 discussing some representative options maybe at

19 the next meeting.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you.

21 Tom?

22 MR. ECKMAN: Just following up on what I
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1 was asking for, again, given that you provided the

2 performance of those pumps to get that information

3 into the dataset so that we see what the typical

4 performance is or what the range of performance is

5 in those pump categories.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Al?

7 MR. HUBER: This is Al. I want to make

8 sure you understand it was all rated at best

9 efficiency point.

10 MR. ECKMAN: Sure. Sure.

11 MR. HUBER: And one thing that

12 complicates some of this is that we trim

13 impellers, so you've got to be real careful. So

14 you've got to say what we did was we rated it all

15 at full diameter and all at best efficiency point

16 because it just gets exponential.

17 MR. ECKMAN: If you look at all the

18 cuts.

19 MR. HUBER: If you look at all the

20 trims.

21 MR. ECKMAN: Right.

22 MR. HUBER: I mean, this is exponential,
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1 and nobody has got time to get that data.

2 MR. ECKMAN: Right.

3 MR. POWERS: And the trims aren't purely

4 linear. Trims are not purely linear; right? As

5 you know when you go down; right? We all know

6 that; right? And some are closer, but based on

7 the specific speed, they can vary a lot; right?

8 MR. ADIN: Can I ask just one very

9 general question about impeller trimming?

10 MR. HUBER: Sure.

11 MR. ADIN: Just to give a rough idea, if

12 you have one, the percentage of pumps that are

13 shipped with the impeller trimmed?

14 MR. HUBER: Oh, it's probably fairly

15 high.

16 MR. ADIN: Yeah.

17 MR. HUBER: The pump in the box usually

18 goes out with what we call -- we call them pump in

19 a box. Okay? I mean, this is the stuff they set

20 on a shelf somewhere, he's talking about, only at

21 one impeller diameter, but the vast majority of

22 what all of us manufacture are trimmed.
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1 MR. ADIN: Yeah. Okay.

2 MR. HANDZEL: And that's because --

3 excuse me -- one particular model could have five

4 different horsepower motors on it based on what

5 they trim the impeller to.

6 MR. HUBER: Exactly.

7 MR. HANDZEL: So that's the variety that

8 we were talking that this stuff -- it's engineered

9 to order --

10 MR. ADIN: Application.

11 MR. HANDZEL: -- for a specific

12 application.

13 MR. POWERS: It also varies, Lucas, when

14 you look at the system that they want to operate

15 at. If they have a four-pump system, one-pump

16 system, where is that pump going to run out to?

17 How is it going to impact that? So sometimes when

18 they do trimming, they do work, they will

19 sacrifice BEP because they need to have the trim

20 back on the curves, they're going to run at, let's

21 say, 75 percent or 50 percent on the curve a lot

22 more time- wise, so they'll want to -- you know,
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1 it's up to the customers.

2 MR. ADIN: Sure.

3 MR. POWERS: Every one of these things

4 are dealt with, and there are a lot of

5 considerations on trim, the NPSH, you're going to

6 modify, you're going to do some tricks to it to

7 help -- you know, there are a ton of things that

8 get done on these things.

9 MR. ADIN: Yeah, and, I mean, that might

10 have a finer point that we don't need to deal with

11 at this stage.

12 MR. HUBER: I wouldn't.

13 MR. ADIN: Right.

14 MR. HUBER: I wouldn't do it at any

15 stage.

16 (Laughter.)

17 MR. HUBER: You had better stay at full

18 diameter at BEP; otherwise, it just gets too

19 voluminous and you'll never get your --

20 MR. ADIN: Well, I'll step away from the

21 Pandora's Box that I just --

22 MR. POWERS: I want to know what kind of
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1 Oracle computer system you have to analyze the

2 data.

3 (Laughter.)

4 MR. POWERS: These mega things this big

5 that have a lot of data, you'll have hundreds of

6 them in this room and you still won't keep up.

7 MR. ADIN: Right. I understand the

8 number of variables on these things could expand

9 significantly, so I'll --

10 MR. POWERS: Yeah. That's not a pump in

11 a box again like saying there are different --

12 MR. ADIN: Right. Understood.

13 Understood.

14 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary Fernstrom, from

15 California IOUs. I have a question if you guys --

16 I'm going to be ordering a 5- to 15-horsepower

17 water circulation pump to circulate heating and

18 cooling water in a building. Is that likely to be

19 a pump in a box or is that likely to be a trimmed

20 impeller --

21 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel, from Xylem.

22 Most of the pump in a box categories probably go
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1 up to like 2-horsepower, so if you get above 2-

2 horsepower, it's going to be constructed to order.

3 So it depends. Some of us may go to 3-horsepower,

4 but really that's about the breaking point, Gary.

5 After that, everything is pretty much specified on

6 an order basis.

7 MR. FERNSTROM: Thank you.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas?

9 MR. ADIN: So unless there are any other

10 comments on that point, I was going to return to

11 going down the list to make sure we're --

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah, keep going.

13 MR. ADIN: Yeah, so the next category of

14 discussion or category of data items that we're

15 going to try and provide were the items that Steve

16 had brought up with respect to pumps driven by

17 electrical or non-electrical drivers, so gas,

18 diesel, steam. So we'll try and get a percentage.

19 Now, you meant percentage of shipments, of

20 products shipped with those kinds of drivers?

21 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Really products in the

22 field because obviously for larger ones, it's
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1 really more of a field survey than a manufacturer

2 survey, I would say. It could be both, but then

3 again that spills over into, what percentage of

4 pump energy are you really talking about?

5 MR. BROOKMAN: We've got some

6 manufacturer comment here. Either one of you

7 guys.

8 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel, from Xylem.

9 Just to comment, that was a question on the

10 Navigant survey. They did ask us, so we did

11 provide that information.

12 MR. HUBER: Well, out in the field

13 you'll not be able to get that --

14 MR. POWERS: That's what I was trying to

15 clarify. We're not going to get field data. If

16 it's shipments, we can get you that. The

17 installed basis we would call it, it's different -

18 -

19 MR. ADIN: Right. Yeah. That may be

20 the case. I don't necessarily expect we would be

21 able to get it from you guys. There might be some

22 other source --
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1 MR. POWERS: But you might be able to go

2 to state legislation. There are places, you know,

3 if they --

4 MR. ADIN: Right. You go to the turbine

5 manufacturers and ask them how many they sold and

6 to what applications, but again a lot of times

7 they don't know the applications either, so --

8 MR. POWERS: Right, okay.

9 MR. ADIN: Well, we'll see what we can

10 find, I'll put it that way. And then, of course,

11 coupled to that was what's the energy use of that

12 installed base. Okay.

13 All right. And then the next item was -

14 - oh, I'm sorry. Yeah.

15 MR. ECKMAN: Irrigation use, you can get

16 that out of the farm and ranch irrigation survey

17 (inaudible).

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Sarah has a comment.

19 Sarah?

20 MS. WIDDER: I think the irrigation data

21 is actually one that is probably the most -- and

22 commercial buildings maybe, and most easy to come
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1 across. There is a large number of -- I just want

2 to make sure that the advocates and everyone in

3 the room is on the same page here. There is not a

4 lot of data on field application for other

5 industrial sectors, and so that's going to be a

6 difficulty that we're just going to all have to

7 work through and we can sort of make some

8 assumptions and come together to develop load

9 profiles or something else. But I just want to

10 make sure we are all on the same page about what

11 we'll be provided. We can definitely look into

12 irrigation more and commercial buildings, and we

13 were trying to develop something for also the pulp

14 and paper industry, but aside from that, it's

15 going to be some slim pickings in terms of public

16 data.

17 MR. ADIN: Okay. So the next general

18 category of items on which we're looking to get

19 some more data is the PSC versus ECM motors

20 question. So the potential for energy savings,

21 from what I heard to be a presumed complete shift

22 from one to the other, and then maybe some data on
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1 availability of ECM motors. I don't know really

2 what form that would take, but how available they

3 are. I mean, we've heard a little bit about that

4 anecdotally, but I don't know if there is a way to

5 characterize how available motors are, if -- so

6 obviously there are two categories. There is one

7 category in which the pump manufacturers are

8 incorporating their own assembled motor into the

9 pump, and then there is the purchasing a separate

10 motor. So those are two different issues, but --

11 MR. FERNSTROM: I think it also breaks

12 out by size. So there is a question about PM-ECM

13 motor availability in the 1/25-horsepower range

14 versus the 1-, 2-, 3-horsepower single-phase.

15 MR. HUBER: This is Al. I will tell you

16 this, that the majority of them are not

17 manufactured here in the United States, the vast

18 majority.

19 MR. ADIN: Okay. And then the other

20 component of that is cost data, whatever cost data

21 we can get for the conversion from one to the

22 other, and understanding that that will vary
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1 depending on the size of the pump, but we'll see

2 what we can get.

3 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary again,

4 California IOUs. With regard to the cost data for

5 the small products, the 1/25-horsepower, some of

6 these manufacturers already offer a PM-ECM motor

7 and an indication of the cost difference would

8 simply be the difference between that and the

9 standard product.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Now, Mark.

11 MR. HANDZEL: Lucas, I just wanted to

12 understand. Some of this data is not going to be

13 available in the Navigant survey and other places,

14 so what are you going to do to try to put it

15 together? Do you have a plan or --

16 MR. ADIN: Well, we'll have to look at

17 what we have, and if we don't have it, we're just

18 going to have to ask for it. So we'll have to try

19 and come up with an appropriate way to limit the

20 questions so that we're getting what we need for

21 the purposes of discussion next time.

22 MR. HANDZEL: Yeah, but do you use
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1 Navigant to collect it? Is that what --

2 MR. ADIN: Yeah. I mean, we would

3 aggregate it --

4 MR. HANDZEL: Okay. So it would be

5 covered by the same NDAs --

6 MR. ADIN: Correct. Correct. It would

7 be covered by NDAs, we would aggregate the data.

8 It would be for the purposes of the characterizing

9 this shift generally. Yeah.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary.

11 MR. FERNSTROM: So I just should say

12 that the California Investor-Owned Utilities are

13 going to be working to help you. We're purchasing

14 probably 15 to 20 of these small circulator pumps.

15 We're going to have the price because we'll buy

16 them from a local plumbing supply, and if we're

17 also going to have the performance, a question in

18 hand is, what test procedure do we use? Because

19 you've pointed out there isn't a commonly agreed

20 to one. And we're talking to some of the

21 manufacturers about how they think that test ought

22 to be completed, but within a few months, probably
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1 by May anyway, we'll have the results to share

2 with the group.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Al.

4 MR. HUBER: Just a point. If you

5 institute a test procedure for that product, the

6 current price of that product will go up. So if

7 you try to use the current price, that's not a

8 necessary predictor of the future price.

9 MR. FERNSTROM: Well --

10 MR. HUBER: Because they don't test

11 these products now period.

12 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay. So Gary again. I

13 would like to make the observation that if there

14 is some regulation affecting these pumps, the

15 price will probably go down because it's been our

16 experience that when efficiency gets regulated, it

17 gets commoditized usually resulting in a lower

18 incremental cost.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Al.

20 MR. HUBER: The only one that I can

21 speak to are motors, and they've done nothing but

22 go up every time a new regulation comes out,
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1 somewhere between 7 and 9 percent every time.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck.

3 MR. POWERS: Yeah. We manufacture

4 vertical permanent magnet motors mostly in the

5 European and Asia arena, and finding out in the

6 marketplace they're more than two times because

7 you do have to have the VFD mechanism to drive

8 with them. And the impact comes down to, can you

9 go into these wells that are in the ground, 6-

10 inch, 8-inch, 10-inch, whatever? What we find is

11 you cannot drill wells anymore in essence around

12 the world. Nobody is going to give you a permit

13 to drill another well. It's getting very

14 restrictive on how many additional wells. So

15 because of that, people have to either get forced

16 hydraulics or get more flow out of these units.

17 Where the permanent magnet comes into play in the

18 submersible technology arena, because of the fact

19 that you can go up in horsepower -- right? -- not

20 necessarily in efficiency, but to a certain degree

21 that's really what it's coming to, but for the

22 same diameter, so you can add more stages, get
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1 more head, more flow, et cetera. That's what's

2 happened. But the costs are incredible. Okay?

3 They're more than two times. There is a

4 tremendous amount. So when you say you think it's

5 going to be regulated and all that, my experience,

6 like Al was saying, in the motor industry, I have

7 not seen it in years.

8 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay. Well, I was just

9 -- for the application and use side, I don't

10 disagree with you. I was just trying to point out

11 there are different perspectives on the effect of

12 regulation, when things are going to get more

13 expensive because they're regulated, they'll have

14 to be tested. And another is some commodity

15 products actually become less expensive.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Do you have more that was

17 on your list?

18 MR. ADIN: So the only other one that I

19 had listed here was that we try and gather

20 whatever data we can, representative load profiles

21 in the field. But that was it. Are there any

22 other general categories or information that the
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1 folks in this room are interested in seeing for

2 next time?

3 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary, California IOUs.

4 I think that's an excellent summary. If we

5 collectively have that information, we can look at

6 the potential savings and costs and industry

7 impacts and come to a good decision.

8 MR. ADIN: Great. So that being said, I

9 think there were some legal items that we wanted

10 to address a little bit more concisely, so I'm

11 going to turn it over to our representatives from

12 General Counsel.

13 MS. KOHL: Thanks, Lucas. This is Betsy

14 Kohl, from DOE GC. So one of the issues we've

15 been talking about is the performance versus the

16 design requirement, and the way we are reading the

17 statute is that we could set a design requirement,

18 but it's an either/or. So we could either set a

19 standard for problems that was a design

20 requirement or we could set a standard that was a

21 minimum level of energy efficiency, and how you

22 get there is up to you. So that's something to
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1 think about, but that's the legal structure there.

2 And as far as the issue that Steve was

3 raising, if we were to do the minimum --

4 MR. BROOKMAN: May I interrupt?

5 MS. KOHL: Yes.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Pardon me for

7 interrupting. So if this Committee -- if I

8 understand you, you're saying you've got both

9 options, and this Committee, if it sends you a

10 recommendation that employs one of those options,

11 that would be fine from DOE's perspective.

12 MS. KOHL: Yes. Yeah.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

14 MS. KOHL: If we were to go down the

15 pathway of a minimum energy efficiency level, the

16 different metrics for different product classes is

17 still something that we need to look at, and

18 you've given us some potential examples that we

19 would have to go and check out, but the basic

20 issue of efficiency level or design requirement is

21 where we are on that one.

22 As far as the compliance date, Lucas was
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1 correct, our reading of the statute is that it

2 would be 5 years, that's our current analysis,

3 that it would be 5 years from when we publish the

4 final standard.

5 Is there anything else we need to say

6 here? Yes, on that issue. No.

7 The other issue is the preemption issue.

8 So unless there is a specific statutory directive

9 for a particular product, the general rules of

10 preemption before a federal standard becomes

11 effective are that a state standard would not

12 permitted, that's our reading of it. So we've got

13 a covered product here and we're working on a

14 standard and there is a statutory prescription

15 before our standard becomes effective for state

16 action.

17 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. A

18 question on that last point. What you're saying

19 is states are preempted while DOE is actively

20 considering something.

21 MS. KOHL: Mm-hmm.

22 MR. FERNSTROM: If it decides not to
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1 develop a regulation, then the states are not

2 preempted; right? No? Yes?

3 MR. COHEN: No, that's not correct.

4 Pumps are a covered product under the statute, and

5 as a result, there is preemption in place right

6 now.

7 MR. FERNSTROM: Whether DOE has a

8 regulation or not?

9 MR. COHEN: That's correct.

10 MR. FERNSTROM: So we've had this debate

11 with attorneys from the California Energy

12 Commission before, and I'm not an attorney and

13 don't profess to be one, but what you're telling

14 me is that a nonstandard standard constitutes

15 preemption.

16 MR. COHEN: If it is determined there

17 are different types of -- now we're going into the

18 nicety of the statute, I'm happy to have this

19 conversation with the folks in California, who we

20 do talk to on a fairly regular basis. The way the

21 statute is set up, there are covered products and

22 then there is the ability for the Department to
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1 add coverage. When there is a covered product

2 under the statute, there are two different

3 provisions for preemption: one before a federal

4 standard applies and one after a federal standard

5 applies. Very clearly in the statute, when you

6 have a covered product, federal preemption applies

7 even before a federal standard is in place.

8 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay. So let me be even

9 more specific. This is very helpful.

10 Particularly with regard to circulators, do we

11 know whether that is a covered product or not?

12 MR. COHEN: Pumps are the covered

13 product, so any form of pump is a covered product.

14 MR. FERNSTROM: So a circulator, as a

15 form of pump, would be. Okay. Thank you.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Meg?

17 MS. WALTNER: Drilling down on that,

18 would a residential circulator -- that doesn't

19 matter?

20 MR. COHEN: That doesn't matter. The

21 statute is set up as either there are residential

22 products and commercial products, the different
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1 product categories within the overall covered

2 product, which in this case is pumps, either falls

3 into one or the other, it's either residential or

4 commercial as a whole. So once you have a

5 commercial product, which pumps are, they all are

6 regardless of even if they are used in a

7 residential setting.

8 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary again. Let me

9 follow up with a question on that. So one of the

10 arguments we've had in this discussion is these

11 circulators may be primarily a residential product

12 and therefore they can't be entertained under the

13 commercial/industrial pump regulation. However,

14 they're still preempted. If California wanted --

15 that isn't --

16 MR. COHEN: So the

17 commercial/residential distinction almost doesn't

18 matter here because the preemption provisions in -

19 - again, this is just the niceties of the statute

20 -- the preemption provision actually is in the

21 residential portion of the statute, but on the

22 commercial side, it refers back to the residential
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1 side. So it's the same preemption provision

2 either way.

3 MR. FERNSTROM: Well, I was led to

4 believe that one of the reasons that DOE may not

5 be able to regulate circulator pumps is because

6 they're either residential or primarily

7 residential. That's not an issue?

8 MR. COHEN: Not from a legal

9 perspective, no.

10 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay. Thank you.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas, do you want to --

12 MR. ADIN: Just a question. Was that

13 based on something that DOE has said previously or

14 is that --

15 MR. FERNSTROM: I don't know that we've

16 -- we haven't had this discussion with DOE. Among

17 us, HI, and the advocates, and for that matter,

18 California, we have debated whether or not the

19 primary application of these products is

20 residential or commercial, and whether that made a

21 difference, and we were of the belief that if it

22 was deemed that the products were primarily
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1 residential, then they would not be a candidate

2 for this commercial/industrial pump rulemaking

3 process.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve.

5 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Two thoughts. And so I

6 just want to say I know there have been certain

7 laws where, for example, I think it was especially

8 lighting, that in the statute states like

9 California law, that they made a standard before

10 DOE decided, that was allowed. And I believe it

11 was also that way for commercial refrigeration,

12 that if states did their own standard before a DOE

13 standard was published, that they were allowed to

14 be effective, is --

15 MR. COHEN: That's correct. So there is

16 a general rule of preemption and then there are

17 exclusions in the statute from that general rule

18 of preemption.

19 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Now, the second

20 question I had, I know it's not related, it's just

21 kind of interesting. California last year or the

22 year before set standards for television sets. As
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1 I recall, televisions have been covered -- weren't

2 they --

3 MR. COHEN: TVs, televisions, are one of

4 the exclusions specifically in the preemption

5 provision.

6 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. I just recall

7 that they were in the 1970 statute. Okay. Thank

8 you.

9 (Laughter.)

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Joanna, did you

11 have something?

12 MS. MAUER: Just about the question that

13 Lucas raised. My recollection is there was some

14 discussion in the framework document that DOE was

15 planning to focus exclusively on

16 commercial/industrial products, but maybe that was

17 not from a legal perspective.

18 MR. ADIN: Right. So let me clarify.

19 When we used the word "residential," it was more

20 to say that the types of pumps, based on their

21 characteristics and configuration, are those

22 commonly used in residential applications, but we
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1 would exclude them on the basis of their physical

2 characteristics. It's not where they're used

3 primarily or the market because that is, from a

4 legal perspective, irrelevant. They're commercial

5 and covered under the commercial part of the

6 statute, so to the extent we did exclude things

7 like that from coverage, it would just be based on

8 the class of products from a physical

9 characteristics standpoint.

10 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay. Gary again. So

11 one more question about this. In the pump

12 business, a lot of pumps are pumps, they can be

13 used in different applications, including

14 residential or commercial. So it's kind of hard

15 to distinguish necessarily from the product

16 characteristics where it's going to wind up,

17 whether it's going to be in the residential market

18 or the commercial market. Would the pump

19 manufacturers agree with me or are there some

20 pumps that you know are not going to find their

21 way into business?

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Mark.
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1 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel, from Xylem.

2 Certainly we don't think any large horsepower

3 pumps are going to end up in a residence.

4 (Laughter.)

5 MR. FERNSTROM: I know.

6 MR. HANDZEL: But on the flipside, I

7 mean, Gary, I think we've had so many discussions

8 over the last 2 years. I think initially when we

9 saw things in writing, we did come out and say,

10 hey, most circulators go into residential

11 applications, so they should be excluded, and DOE

12 came back and said, no, that's not the case. So

13 we pulled back on that and said, okay, that's

14 fine.

15 So we continue to say that we strongly

16 believe that a significant majority of circulators

17 go into residential applications, but we don't

18 have hard facts and numbers. As I mentioned

19 yesterday, we sell through distribution. They

20 could sell to a contractor who puts it into a

21 residence, they could sell to a contractor who

22 puts it in a school.
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1 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay. And in a way it's

2 kind of irrelevant except for the load and hours

3 of operation and all of that that we might --

4 okay. Thank you.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Bob, did you have

6 something?

7 MR. BARBOUR: Yes. Bob Barbour. Just

8 one question, Mark. When you use the term

9 "circulator," you're defining up to 3-horsepower?

10 MR. HANDZEL: Yes.

11 MR. BARBOUR: So some of when if you ask

12 Mark how many 1/25-horsepower circulators are

13 going into commercial buildings in comparison to

14 the 1-, 2-, 3-horsepower, those are entirely

15 different --

16 MR. HANDZEL: Yeah.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: And so I think this part

18 of the talking past one another yesterday and

19 today was this distinction, that the really small

20 ones, 1/25- horsepower and the 1-2-3s, you know --

21 MR. HANDZEL: 1/2, 3/4, 1-horse, yeah.

22 If our original thought process from the framework
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1 document or from the framework meeting process was

2 1- to 200-horsepower, that range as opposed to the

3 fractionals.

4 MR. FERNSTROM: So the way it breaks

5 down for us is the 1/25-horsepower in California,

6 primarily residential, but when you start hitting

7 the 1/12 and up, by majority, those go into

8 commercial applications, that's probably not true

9 nationally because residential circulators are

10 probably bigger on the East Coast, but --

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah.

12 MR. FERNSTROM: I understand. This is

13 kind of a moot issue.

14 MR. BARBOUR: There has always been a

15 crossover there.

16 MR. FERNSTROM: Go ahead.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So are we ready to

18 move on now? Have we covered the data of the data

19 analysis needs sufficiently? I think we have.

20 Is there anybody who just wants to stand

21 up? Just stand up and stretch. We're going to

22 work for another 15, 20 minutes, half an hour.
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1 Then we're going to take lunch. Let's just get a

2 little -- just don't go anywhere, what --

3 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: 30 seconds.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. We're just going

5 to do this every now and then. Freshen up our

6 limbs.

7 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Get the

8 blood moving.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. So while you're

10 doing that, let me queue up what's next. So I

11 think it's well understood that we need to have

12 some preliminary sense of the scope and also the

13 test procedures that would be used to accommodate

14 that scope to think about the full duration, the

15 full timetable, for the negotiation. So I'm

16 hoping this next item here, the second from the

17 bottom, "Test Procedure Pathway to Understanding,"

18 that we can embark upon that next. Lucas had some

19 ideas about this. He has spoken with General

20 Counsel and others, and he also stated something

21 this morning that was important, which was -- and

22 maybe you can restate this better than I can --
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1 which was essentially we need to get the task done

2 however much time it takes.

3 (Laughter.)

4 MR. BROOKMAN: That's not quite what you

5 said.

6 MR. ADIN: Well, yeah. I'll state that

7 a little bit more clearly. I think really what I

8 was trying to communicate is that the scope

9 shouldn't necessarily be limited by the timeframe

10 that we've discussed generally.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: As, for example, in the

12 ground rules discussion.

13 MR. ADIN: Right.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

15 MR. ADIN: We shouldn't be limiting

16 scope purely on the basis of time, when we think

17 we have time to consider them. I mean, if we

18 think that things should be within the scope and

19 it will take more time to analyze and to produce a

20 good rule that will achieve energy savings that we

21 want to pursue and we need more time to do it,

22 then we'll look at getting more time, but I think
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1 that was just a general point I wanted to make.

2 It's not that the scope is limited by time, you

3 know. I think we want to think of the constraints

4 that way.

5 So it's fine to have -- the timeframe

6 what we looked at yesterday I think is, frankly

7 from DOE's perspective, pretty ambitious given

8 some of the things we've been talking about. So

9 it's worth thinking about moving it a little bit

10 farther out, not much, maybe a month or two, but

11 at the very least just to give us a little bit

12 more of a cushion, something we feel more

13 comfortable with. So I'm not suggesting a

14 particular day, we can talk about that.

15 But the other big piece of this is the

16 test procedure, that's the next item that's up

17 there on the list. And so we've heard from Greg

18 about what we might be able to see in January, and

19 that might give us something concrete to discuss,

20 which is very helpful. We had been under the

21 impression we wouldn't see something until quite a

22 bit farther out, probably till the end of the
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1 spring, and so we were concerned about timeline

2 from that perspective.

3 But just to put this all in context,

4 what actually has to happen with the test

5 procedure, I don't think we discussed this in

6 detail yesterday, but the test procedure that DOE

7 would ultimately adopt would have to be also done

8 through a rule. So it isn't just kind of rolled

9 into this rulemaking. We actually have to publish

10 a proposed rule that includes whatever proposed

11 test we're going to use and then finalize that

12 through a rulemaking as well. So that has to

13 happen within the timeframe of this standards

14 rulemaking. So that's just another piece that has

15 to happen, and that will take some time. I mean,

16 it will happen in parallel with this, obviously,

17 but it's something that I thought was important

18 for the group to know.

19 MS. WALTNER: I have a question about

20 that process. Would you envision the test

21 procedure NOPR coming out during our negotiations

22 versus us making a recommendation as a negotiating
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1 committee about the test procedure?

2 MR. ADIN: So that's a good question

3 actually. I mean, timeline-wise, yes, the NOPR

4 would come out during the period of the

5 negotiations of this Working Group. But with

6 respect to the ability of the Working Group to

7 inform the NOPR, that's actually to some extent

8 more of a legal question. I might defer --

9 MR. COHEN: Even the timing is going to

10 be sort of interesting, too, I would think. It

11 depends on if we get -- I don't know what stage

12 this document is going to be in, in January when

13 we see it. It's out for a vote and won't be

14 approved. We've heard the timeline is sort of May15 ish for a final document for us to really consider

16 that document in any formal way, at least to get

17 done. So it may push that timing out, too.

18 We often do, though, consider -- in

19 fact, we almost always will consider industry

20 documents in our test procedures. In fact, if you

21 look at our test procedures, we often incorporate

22 by reference industry test procedures, so it's
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1 certainly part of the consideration.

2 MS. KOHL: Deliberations are probably

3 the biggest -- I mean, if these deliberations, I

4 mean, they're public, what we're doing here, so

5 feeding that into the test procedure rulemaking I

6 don't think would be an issue.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Great.

8 Gary.

9 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary, at California

10 IOUs. I have one more important preemption

11 question for you folks. California and several

12 other states following in its footsteps has

13 developed residential swimming pool pump

14 regulations, and they basically require for pumps

15 over 1 total horsepower that they be two-speed,

16 multi-speed, or variable speed such that the

17 benefits of the affinity law and energy savings

18 can be realized through that variable speed

19 technology. Is that preempted?

20 MR. COHEN: To some of the details of

21 what that product is, we have to look into it. It

22 might be. I'm not sure.
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1 MR. FERNSTROM: Well, I would ask you to

2 look into it because it's not just California.

3 The regulation went into effect in 2006 and has

4 been in effect ever since. It's been replicated

5 in Florida and several other states that don't

6 come to mind right now. So during the break I can

7 give you the reference to that. Thanks.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. So test

9 procedure pathway and understanding how these

10 pieces might fit together.

11 Gary?

12 MR. FERNSTROM: Maybe just one other

13 quick point for the legal folks. If it turns out

14 those existing regulations would be preempted, I

15 would ask that they be explicitly excluded from

16 this regulation such as to not disrupt what the

17 states have already done.

18 MR. COHEN: Just to be clear on that

19 point, this is a different product than one that

20 we would be adding coverage where we would be

21 defining what the scope of the product is. If

22 Congress has set up a covered product, we don't
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1 have the ability to say it's not a covered

2 product.

3 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay. Thank you.

4 MS. WALTNER: To be clear, pumps aren't

5 defined in the statute; right? They're just

6 listed. So isn't it -- I mean, I guess I'm a bit

7 uneasy and maybe this is an issue to drill down on

8 not right now, but how you can have a covered

9 product for a product that's not defined as to

10 what it is, or if you have some authority to

11 define that product.

12 MR. COHEN: Yeah. So that could cut

13 both ways. Right? That could cut the -- since

14 it's pumps is the word, pump of any form -- right?

15 -- could be the other way of looking at it --

16 right? -- because Congress didn't choose to limit

17 -- I mean, this is an issue we can talk about, but

18 --

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve, go ahead.

20 MR. ROSENSTOCK: I was going to ask, and

21 maybe ask a question in a different way. If in

22 our recommendations we add -- let's say we
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1 recommend a definition and we specifically say in

2 the definition this recommendation or this

3 rulemaking specifically excludes swimming pool

4 pumps, and therefore it would not be an

5 effectively covered product, then the states can

6 do what they could do because you have

7 specifically excluded that product from coverage

8 under your definition. Is that --

9 MR. COHEN: Right. So I said we're

10 going to look into that question separately.

11 MR. ROSENSTOCK: I'm just going to say,

12 isn't there precedent with other products where

13 you've said you're -- like you're excluding 100-

14 watt R20 lamps. There is another rulemaking that

15 said specifically we're covering incandescent

16 reflector lamps, but we have decided we are making

17 a decision that we are not covering 100-watt R20

18 lamps because it's a niche product, et cetera.

19 You specifically say, "We are not covering this

20 product."

21 MR. COHEN: Yeah, so that's a different

22 issue. This statute has lots of little twists and
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1 turns to it, but that's a different issue because

2 there is a specific authority in the law for us to

3 exclude from incandescent reflector lamps certain

4 kinds, so --

5 MR. ROSENSTOCK: And the other question

6 I had, the converse of that is if you decide not

7 to exclude pool pumps, what happens with all these

8 states that have set standards?

9 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary, from California.

10 Just one more quick caveat. It might be possible

11 to interpret the regulation as a design regulation

12 because it specifies a design rather than an

13 energy efficiency performance level. I don't know

14 whether that matters, but I just -- okay. Thank

15 you.

16 MR. COHEN: Yeah. For preemption

17 purposes, no.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: So I'm interested in us

19 trying to knit together here some logic, some

20 thought process, these elements that we're going

21 to try to create a pathway or an expectation

22 surrounding the duration of the negotiation, and
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1 I'm wanting additional thoughts based on what

2 Lucas had said already because ultimately we're

3 wanting today to emerge from here with ground

4 rules that we're going to adopt, we hope, and the

5 one significant portion that we haven't addressed,

6 thanks to our efforts yesterday and to Jeremiah's

7 red-lined corrected version, is the dates

8 associated with the termination date for this

9 Committee and term sheet date to ASRAC.

10 I had a question, and it's really

11 fundamental, and I guess I should know this, but,

12 Greg, the test procedure that your committee is

13 working on that you think that you'll be able to

14 offer a draft version in January, did it emerge

15 out of whole cloth? Was it based on previous test

16 procedures? Is it analogous to something that

17 came before? I'm wondering if there is something

18 -- if there is an analysis that's possible based

19 on some test procedure earlier iteration so that

20 the analysis can begin.

21 MR. CASE: Greg Case, Hydraulic

22 Institute. It is generally based on an existing
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1 standard, but there are many changes in scaling

2 down of the choices that we have for the testing

3 for this particular standard.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: How much different would

5 you say it is? Is it radically different where

6 there would be an order of magnitude -- I'm

7 looking for some way for the folks that want an

8 analysis and data to get their teeth into

9 something that might be a trend line indicative of

10 something.

11 MR. ADIN: So, Doug, I'll just point out

12 that the main reason I had asked that question

13 earlier was based on the presumption that we

14 wouldn't see the 40.6 procedure until much later

15 in the process.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

17 MR. ADIN: So now that we know that

18 we'll be able to see a draft as early as sometime

19 in January, I think that largely resolves the

20 question of what we're going to use in the interim

21 period from our perspective.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So do you have any
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1 thoughts about the dates, any additional thoughts?

2 You talked about it a little bit already.

3 MR. ADIN: Well, I mean, if I were to

4 characterize generally, I would say we should try

5 and give ourselves as much time as possible within

6 the constraints that we had discussed at the

7 beginning. So if we're going to try and shoot for

8 a proposed rule by the end of the year, and the

9 notice needs to be basically by the end of

10 September, then what's the latest that we can

11 provide something, a term sheet, to the ASRAC and

12 give them enough time to consider it?

13 So I think really that's more what we're

14 working with. I think we want to try and give

15 ourselves as much time as we can.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Do we have

17 additional thoughts on this?

18 Tom?

19 MR. ECKMAN: From historical experience,

20 until we see the life-cycle cost analysis results

21 and have the chance to have probably multiple

22 iterations of those because people will assert
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1 that the costs used were wrong both up and down,

2 so we'll have to debate about how sensitive they

3 are to particular factors used in the analysis and

4 how much loading was on the particular pump and

5 what the duty cycle was and whether we got that

6 right or not. I mean, that takes a while, and at

7 least it will be a couple months' worth of

8 circling and sniffing that issue for sure. And

9 that's where the rubber meets the road in terms of

10 finding consensus about what the ultimate levels

11 are that might go into the term sheet.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: And when do you think

13 that --

14 MR. ECKMAN: That's a question for the

15 staff, as when would we have that capability to do

16 across all the product levels.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas?

18 MR. ADIN: I think it's a little early

19 to say for sure. I mean, hopefully -- well, and

20 maybe this is getting into the more specific

21 timeline issues, but maybe that's something that

22 we can try and identify more concretely by the end
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1 of the next meeting once we've all had a chance to

2 see a preliminary test procedure, we'll have some

3 data that will help us refine our idea of scope,

4 we'll at least have some preliminary LCC numbers.

5 We'll have some more concrete things that we can

6 use as a basis for having a discussion like that.

7 And that's why I was saying at least in terms of

8 timeline, maybe the best place to start is just as

9 far out as we can go within the constraints that

10 we were originally envisioning. We would still

11 like to keep it as our goal to have a proposed

12 rule out by the end of 2014, so within that

13 constraint, let's see what's reasonable, and

14 understanding that there are some variables, but -

15 -

16 MR. ECKMAN: It just seems to me that in

17 order to be finished with a term sheet in

18 September, the discussion of the life-cycle costs

19 and resolution of the levels has got to happen not

20 later probably than June/July timeframe. And

21 that's targeting that level because that will give

22 us at least a couple meetings to talk about those
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1 and maybe need more, but we'll see. And if we get

2 any later than that, then September looks more

3 problematic to me because we'll need time to come

4 to agreement on what -- given the life-cycle cost

5 information and that, national impacts information

6 on the manufacturers, you weigh those two and it

7 takes a while to come -- that's where the rubber

8 meets the road.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Bob.

10 MR. BARBOUR: Bob Barbour, with TACO.

11 One of the questions that I have in the back of my

12 mind, I'm hearing people talking about life-cycle

13 cost analysis, et cetera, but what energy standard

14 or where is the MEI going to be drawn or what are

15 you looking for in the way of an efficiency

16 improvement? Because that is going to have a lot

17 of feedback, I would think, from the manufacturing

18 group as far as feasibility, cost, et cetera,

19 depending on where that bar is set. And today I

20 don't think any of us in this room honestly know

21 what you're looking for.

22 MR. ADIN: So to help provide at least
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1 part of a response to that, it kind of gets back

2 to our normal process, which is that we use the

3 best data that we have available to come up with

4 some candidate standard levels, so we'll come up

5 with five or six different levels at different

6 ranges of improvement -- 5 percent, 10 percent, 15

7 percent, whatever it is -- and then do the

8 analysis on each of those. So what do the life9 cycle costs look like? What do the energy savings

10 look like? All that. So it would be a range,

11 kind of a menu, of options, and that's where those

12 LCCs become really important because we're

13 evaluating each of those grades on those kinds of

14 factors.

15 MR. BARBOUR: Bob Barbour again. How

16 does that relate to our feedback as far as

17 resource availability to accomplish some of those

18 different levels?

19 MR. ECKMAN: My experience is that when

20 we see the candidate standard levels that are

21 being considered, you guys will have a pretty good

22 idea, okay, if I've got to move to this technology
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1 or that level of efficiency, that's where we need

2 your feedback about, okay, that's going to mean

3 redesign of X lines by Y time, and that's the

4 loading I've got. Until we see what those levels

5 are, it's pretty hard for you guys to even get any

6 idea what that means, implications, but that's

7 sort of what -- you know, if we can even see what

8 some of those candidate standard levels are, you

9 guys can go back home and say, "All right, what's

10 this going to mean to me to get this product at

11 that level versus that level?" That's part of the

12 tradeoff that we go through in these negotiations,

13 is, well, this looks really economic for

14 consumers, but for you guys, the ROI on that is

15 really bad.

16 (Laughter.)

17 MR. POWERS: Chuck, at Flowserve. I

18 think it's important getting back to the draft

19 ground rules, we need to know the scope before we

20 pick that date. We've got to -- I mean, this is

21 just crazy. I mean, is it going to be Lot 11? Is

22 it going broader than that? Because whether it's
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1 August or like I think he was saying September, so

2 maybe August is the date, or whether it's June, we

3 obviously want to get something done sooner. In

4 my opinion, maybe we should pick what we feel

5 today is a realistic date for a Lot 11, it's well

6 defined, there is a lot of stuff done by European,

7 a lot of data been started, so we have something,

8 and maybe try to move -- you know, we know it's

9 aggressive, but maybe try to move it up so that

10 maybe we have a little more time to look at

11 something later if we go there. But I don't know

12 if we can pick a date unless we know what that

13 scope is going to be. Right?

14 And the other thing that it does -- and

15 I'm glad you brought it up -- is the impact

16 because if we impact a lot of smaller

17 manufacturers and they close shop and then they

18 put a local ad in the paper saying, "Oh, guess

19 what? DOE's regulation just let go 200 people and

20 they don't have jobs now because of this."

21 MR. BROOKMAN: We're aware of those.

22 (Laughter.)
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1 MR. POWERS: And that happens, you know,

2 and it's happening in Europe already. Right? But

3 that's part of it. Right? We just have to make

4 sure we understand. Right? Or even if we don't

5 close shop on the small guys, so the bigger guys

6 might say, "We're going to go offshore because the

7 technology and the time and the cost," and then

8 you have that impact. So it's all balanced, to

9 your point.

10 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: That's part

11 of the package.

12 MR. POWERS: We've got to make sure we

13 do this right or else we could have a significant

14 impact. Right? But I think the scope so we can

15 get to it. Right?

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Doug and then to Al.

17 MR. POTTS: Doug Potts, American Water.

18 This is kind of building on what Chuck was saying

19 and is something I was going to suggest that would

20 be sort of a phased approach. Instead of trying

21 to decide today if we're going to include

22 circulator pumps or not in the scope, and that's
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1 obviously a debate -- let's make it practical,

2 such as Lot 11, and set our dates based upon that,

3 and if that goes really well and time allows us to

4 add additional scope within that same timeframe,

5 that's one path.

6 Another option is we get things done

7 within the prescribed schedule within that first

8 stage, then we move on to the next stage and there

9 is a new timeframe for the second. And so that's

10 a little bit different than whether it's included

11 in this regulation or not. I mean, that's another

12 way of approaching it, but another approach would

13 be having a staged approach and just now set the

14 timeframe based upon the initial approach and then

15 later timeframes as we see how things unfold.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Or as maybe a friendly

17 amendment, that maybe we presume that Lot 11 is

18 the centerpiece of the scope for right now, and we

19 time for that and the test procedure release, and

20 then in the meantime, in the next month or so,

21 we're going to get more data, more analysis, to

22 continue to evaluate the circulator issue, and
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1 then see how that fits into the timeframe that we

2 were considering. So that's a different kind of

3 approach.

4 Steve, go ahead.

5 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock.

6 Again, I'm going off the framework document in

7 terms of what DOE wrote down as parameters for

8 potential energy conservation standards, and I'm

9 thinking that what they wrote -- again, this is

10 back in February -- in terms of it said

11 stakeholder coverage parameter proposal, and was

12 that the manufacturer stakeholders that's showing

13 up on this slide? I'm just wondering.

14 It says, "Parameters for Potential

15 Energy Conservation Standards." This was in the

16 framework slides from February, and I'm just

17 wondering if that is -- is this Lot 11? I'm just

18 kind of wondering if this is --

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Sarah.

20 MS. WIDDER: I think I know what slide

21 you're referring to, and the stakeholder proposal

22 did refer to a proposal from the manufacturers and
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1 HI regarding scope and is consistent with Lot 11

2 in the European Union. The products for

3 consideration from the DOE in the framework

4 expanded upon that very slightly.

5 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. Again, it might

6 be helpful, especially for us non-pump experts,

7 maybe to write down --

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Sure.

9 MR. ROSENSTOCK: -- just what's in Lot

10 11, what did DOE write, and then maybe, what do

11 the advocates want to add? Or maybe another way

12 is to say that everybody agrees that Lot 11 pumps

13 should be covered.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. Sarah, when DOE,

15 in the framework document, it listed several

16 specific pump types. Most of those were in Lot 11

17 and then there were some additional pump types

18 that were included?

19 MS. WIDDER: Correct. Actually, the

20 framework public meeting slides are up there. I

21 can't remember. Do you know what slide number it

22 is, Steve?
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1 MR. ROSENSTOCK: That's what I'm trying

2 to --

3 MS. WIDDER: That might be helpful to

4 frame this discussion.

5 MR. ROSENSTOCK: There it is.

6 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: That's just

7 the range proposal. There is still a chart that

8 has pictures.

9 MS. WIDDER: Yeah, go back a little bit.

10 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: How do I get

11 to the pictures yet? Table 1.2.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas?

13 MR. ADIN: So just to kind of reframe

14 the conversation a little bit with respect to the

15 dates issue, I think it's useful for everyone to

16 keep in mind that the ground rules do have a

17 couple of general provisions for us to extend the

18 deadline if necessary. We can ask ASRAC to do

19 that. We can make a recommendation, whatever it

20 is. And we can change our own ground rules, I

21 mean, it has a provision in there for that. So

22 it's not that we put a date in there and say, hey,
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1 it's unchangeable and it's a drop-dead date and

2 everything will fall apart if we don't get there.

3 So understanding that scope really has a very

4 large potential impact on the feasibility of the

5 dates that we're going to choose, it seems, since

6 we really just kind of at this point need to move

7 forward, we need to establish some ground rules so

8 that next time we can really get into substance,

9 it might be worthwhile putting in a couple of

10 dates with the understanding that there is a

11 provision that we can change them if necessary,

12 and then the first issue of substance that we'll

13 discuss at the next meeting with all the

14 additional data points that hopefully we're going

15 to gather in that interim period is scope, have a

16 way to move forward.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Can we make a statement

18 of presumption surrounding maybe, for lack of a

19 better term, a minimum scope or something like

20 that, or a presumed scope, and then as just a

21 placeholder while we're gathering more

22 information?
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1 MR. ADIN: Well, I think from DOE's

2 perspective, we have it up there. At the bare

3 minimum, it's Lot 11.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Which is quite similar to

5 Lot 11.

6 MR. ADIN: Similar. Yeah, there are a

7 couple of additional items in there, much of the

8 double suction and --

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Lot 11 is described in

10 the last column.

11 MR. ADIN: Right.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: So double suction and

13 axially split are not covered as is vertical

14 turbine and axial propeller mixed.

15 MR. ADIN: I can't read it.

16 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: That's okay.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: So you're suggesting we

18 create some sort of our best guess dates here,

19 there may be placeholder dates, and then as we

20 zero in on scope, and at the next meeting

21 especially -- well, I guess on an ongoing basis,

22 keep considering how the dates are going to pan
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1 out.

2 MR. ADIN: That's right. So, I mean, we

3 do have a couple of dates we could suggest.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Why don't you suggest a

5 few?

6 MR. ADIN: So the dates that we're

7 thinking of, again just as a basis for discussion,

8 the first date being the date of which

9 negotiations would terminate, being September 1st,

10 and then the second date, the date being that on

11 which we would submit our term sheet to ASRAC,

12 being July 15th, again with the understanding that

13 these could be adjusted if we deem necessary.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Okay. And then

15 I've tried probably beyond my -- I've been trying

16 to find some way to characterize simply the scope

17 here. Would you like to take a shot at that?

18 MR. ADIN: So I think from our

19 perspective, it's -- well, there are actually kind

20 of two parts to that question.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah.

22 MR. ADIN: You have the classes of pumps
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1 themselves, which is that list that we just showed

2 up, the Lot 11 plus those few other types that DOE

3 was considering, but you still have the question

4 of whether it's bare pump or pumps with motor and

5 all that.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Right.

7 MR. ADIN: So that's another scope

8 question that we haven't resolved yet.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Right.

10 MR. ADIN: And there are circulators.

11 So those things we will still need to resolve at

12 the next meeting. I don't think we're going to

13 really get there today concretely.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. Do you want to

15 contribute, Sarah?

16 MS. WIDDER: I think the one thing that

17 I would say -- and this has to do with the scope

18 schedule conflict that has come up a few times --

19 is that I think the second part of the scope that

20 Lucas presented, whether it's bare pumps or pumps

21 with motors or especially pumps with motors plus

22 controls, I think everyone knows has the larger
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1 implication on schedule.

2 And so, Doug, I like your suggestion

3 that if we perhaps pick something that we can all

4 agree on and we could maybe come up with some

5 dates associated with a minimum scope and then

6 discuss schedule alterations as the scope was

7 decided in later meetings?

8 MR. BROOKMAN: I'm just suggesting this

9 because in what I've heard that's available to

10 work on, it seems as though there is this -- the

11 work that HI has done, the test procedure that's

12 underway, addresses largely Lot 11, and so it kind

13 of forms for me this presumption that this

14 Committee would consider that and try and take

15 that up. And then there are the other issues for

16 which we're wanting additional data analysis that

17 might be included as well, but at sort of a

18 minimum entering into this and following DOE's

19 analysis and the framework, that that forms kind

20 of a sensible starting point.

21 MR. POWERS: So if I can --

22 MR. BROOKMAN: I'm just sticking it out
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1 there. Right?

2 MR. POWERS: Chuck Powers, Flowserve.

3 I'm trying to understand what you're saying, and I

4 think I'm agreeing with it, is that we've got to

5 get something done. Douglas earlier mentioned Lot

6 11 -- right? -- he represents a lot. Right?

7 Let's start there. Let's pick the dates that

8 Lucas mentioned, which I believe up on the thing

9 here would be September 1st we'll terminate, and

10 July 15th was the second date.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: The term sheet.

12 MR. POWERS: The term sheet. Okay?

13 Let's say Lot 11, which was not that chart on

14 there, you actually missed a couple items on Lot

15 11 was on there; right?

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Right.

17 MR. POWERS: Let's go by Lot 11, and

18 there was a document that was published by

19 (inaudible) too, but even better than that, there

20 was the one published by -- it's in this pack in

21 here -- sorry, sorry, sorry -- the Department of

22 Energy on May 17th, which clearly defined by
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1 pictures even so people could better understand

2 them what that Lot 11 was. Right? And we've got

3 a document already. There's a date. You don't

4 have to get confusing on the items, I hope, and

5 let's get on with it. Right?

6 And then to be fair, if there is

7 substance, data, you know, in the next meeting,

8 the recommendation, my recommendation, let's go

9 forward with Lot 11, these dates, and, by the way,

10 include the test as part of this deal, which

11 wasn't in it originally, let's have that done if

12 Greg feels he can support that. Right? And then

13 at the next meeting, if the data and other

14 information comes out that Gary and others feel,

15 maybe we look at maybe adding something else if it

16 supports that.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Well, yeah, but it seems

18 as though we would love to have all the

19 information we need at this point to know what to

20 do with circulators, but in the roundabout

21 conversations we've had, we've revealed we don't

22 have the information we need to do anything with
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1 that. So, however, hopefully by the January

2 meeting, we'll have a lot more information to

3 figure out what to do with circulators. Right?

4 I'm looking over the data, folks. Yes. So it

5 seems like we've got one proposal on the table to

6 deal with Lot 11, and I would just like to

7 clarify, as a starting point for scope, DOE, in

8 its framework document, listed four or five

9 additional types --

10 Can you put that slide back up there,

11 Jeremiah? This one.

12 So you see them here in the middle, this

13 is double suction, axially split multistage,

14 vertical turbine, and axial propeller mixed. So

15 those all seem -- the logic here from the

16 Department of Energy is you start with kind of a

17 broad view, you do kind of preliminary analysis,

18 and it starts to narrow the scope. Do you know

19 what I'm saying?

20 MR. POWERS: Okay, but, Doug -- this is

21 Chuck again from Flowserve -- again, for pump

22 manufacturers, for the industry, and even the
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1 little guys understand it, those words are

2 dangerous. Those words up there can be

3 misconstrued. Right? Believe me, go my way. When

4 everybody looks at Hydraulic Institute, you're

5 talking OHOs, you're talking OH7s. These are term

6 that's well defined in the industry rather than

7 words. Do you follow what I'm saying? In other

8 words, it's well defined in --

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Why is it dangerous?

10 MR. POWERS: Well, because people can

11 look at the word "axially split," but the

12 definitions have been defined in the Hydraulic

13 Institute standards and the EU standard, you use

14 those codes that define --

15 MR. BROOKMAN: I guess I'm

16 misinterpreting because I thought that they were,

17 in listing these additional things, that they were

18 expanding beyond Lot 11 or beyond the HI proposal.

19 That's what I thought they were doing.

20 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel, from Xylem.

21 They are expanding it, but what we're saying is

22 that the industry recognizes these HI-defined
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1 codes, so it's dangerous for us to go off of the

2 descriptions and not look at the families and

3 codes that the industry relies on.

4 MR. POWERS: For example, just to be

5 fair, the word "partials" up there, all of a

6 sudden --

7 MR. HANDZEL: What does that mean?

8 MR. POWERS: -- what does that mean?

9 Right? Whereas if you say -- and I'm not trying

10 to spin this or anything, just say here are the

11 codes that have been defined. And by the way, if

12 we go to get other data in the EU, they've got a

13 lot of data, they all refer to these types of

14 codes.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Greg.

16 MR. CASE: Our issue with the expansion

17 comes back again to data needed to be able to

18 evaluate those, and I don't know that we provided

19 any of that data with our interview, so we would

20 have to go out and resurvey to get that data. I

21 may be wrong on that, but I'm looking over to

22 Sarah. Do we know? This slide which lists some
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1 additional pump types that are characterized as

2 not covered, did the manufacturer submit data for

3 that stuff?

4 MS. WIDDER: Well, Dan will address

5 that. Okay, I just wanted to say with regards to

6 using the codes referenced by Chuck, that comment

7 was also submitted to the framework document, and

8 DOE has a crosswalk that they have developed.

9 This is just a slide from the framework document,

10 so it's obviously not been updated. But that's a

11 good comment, and in the future, we can either

12 continue to use these terms but reference specific

13 HI codes, use only HI codes, and that will depend

14 on how we wish to define equipment classes.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: So the crosswalk ought to

16 eliminate the danger, so to speak.

17 MS. WIDDER: Correct.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: That ought to create

19 clarity surrounding what we're talking about.

20 Lucas?

21 MR. ADIN: It will help for our purposes

22 certainly, but going broader than that, for the
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1 purposes of regulatory coverage, obviously we

2 define these terms or whatever terms we're using

3 to establish product classes and scope of coverage

4 and all that, those will be part of the

5 regulations, so we would actually put definitions

6 that make --

7 MR. HANDZEL: We have all those --

8 MR. ADIN: Right. And so that would be

9 part of this, so there wouldn't be these questions

10 about -- for that part of it anyway.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: But, Dan, on the question

12 of data, Chuck says for these -- the items listed

13 that are additional, did Navigant collect data on

14 those items?

15 MR. WEINTRAUB: So for those items,

16 Navigant went out and did request data that was

17 part of the interview package. To the extent that

18 we receive data, that can be aggregated and is

19 useful to the analysis. We don't have enough to

20 perform any analyses really beyond the Lot 11

21 scope right now, it just was not provided to us.

22 So if we look to understand how we can expand
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1 scope, we're going to need to get back into

2 collecting more data.

3 MR. POWERS: And, Doug -- Chuck, again

4 from Flowserve --

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.

6 MR. POWERS: -- I think, again, just so

7 we're clear and we know what we're trying to do,

8 where we can communicate, because an EC or an

9 engineering house or customer, even I'm sure

10 Douglas in here and the guys in California, when

11 they write specs or specify stuff, they'll refer

12 to these codes. You know, they'll use the other

13 words, but most of them will refer to these

14 definitions that everybody worldwide tries to

15 recognize. Right? But just for clarification,

16 there are eight in Lot 11.

17 If you just look at that list up there,

18 I count five: one, two, three, four, five. So

19 there are eight different significant codes here,

20 and then you have five up on the board that are

21 saying either partial or covered. So I'm just

22 trying to sort of stick to the Lot 11.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Regardless of the

2 nomenclature we pick or how the crosswalk gets

3 that done, we need to be clear one way or the

4 other. Right? That's understood.

5 Sarah?

6 MS. WIDDER: I think that that comment

7 is heard, and the reason there are five there is

8 sometimes two of the OH nomenclature classes are

9 incorporated into one, as referenced in this

10 table, but that crosswalk exists, and we can also

11 discuss as part of these regulations whether the

12 equipment classes the Department uses to establish

13 coverage should be identical to those definitions

14 HI already has or group them up, which is sort of

15 what this table represents, and why additional

16 terms were suggested. But that can all be

17 addressed, and I think that, back to Lucas's

18 point, whatever definitions in equipment classes

19 the Department or this group comes up with, they

20 will be clear and concise, and so we'll avoid any

21 danger.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: But just to be clear, the
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1 information that the Department presented in the

2 framework document, that did include some pumps

3 that are different, an expansion, a small

4 expansion perhaps, on Lot 11.

5 MS. WIDDER: Correct.

6 MR. POWERS: Chuck Powers. We keep

7 using this word, "a partial small expansion." It

8 is not.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

10 MR. POWERS: It is significant.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Good. Okay. So

12 we're going to break for lunch very soon. We're

13 taking a shot at a rather preliminary definition

14 of scope and also in the last conversation we have

15 suggested some possible dates that we would fill

16 in for ground rules, noting that as we're going

17 along that we may need to revise those dates,

18 particularly as we zero in more completely on the

19 scope and look at the test procedure and the

20 implications of the test procedure and all of

21 that. So I'm going to restate where I think we

22 are.
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1 Chuck's proposal is that we -- there is

2 a sort of scope, there is a presumption

3 surrounding scope that at a minimum it's -- I

4 guess I'm going to interpret. It's Lot 11. He

5 says it's Lot 11, but I'm going to say, for the

6 purposes of being inclusive for all the

7 negotiators, we presume that Lot 11 is the minimum

8 scope, and the test procedure that becomes

9 available in January for us to look at that allows

10 us to start doing some analysis and figure out

11 what the implications are to get to the sort of

12 data that Tom is referring to so that we can start

13 making these difficult decisions in the perhaps

14 June/July timeframe, and though beginning in

15 January, prior to our next January meeting when

16 this data becomes available surrounding other

17 classes outside of Lot 11, like circulator pumps,

18 that we have an active discussion in January

19 surrounding how to approach these other then Lot

20 11 issues. So I think that's my sense of what

21 I've heard about -- I'm trying to construct what I

22 think might work.
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1 Go ahead.

2 MR. POTTS: Just a question or point of

3 clarification is, should we assume that this first

4 phase of Lot 11 is pumps only? Because I think

5 when we get into variable speed drive, it seems

6 like that is mostly addressing the circulator type

7 pumps, and so that would be a separate category.

8 Or if we're talking about larger water system type

9 pumps or we're talking about variable speed

10 drives, that's a whole multiple levels of

11 complexity. So I guess we should clarify that, if

12 that's included or not.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary.

14 MR. FERNSTROM: Well, I would add one

15 other category, and I think it was Al or one of

16 the HI folks refer to these products as box pumps.

17 So I'm interested in the integral pump motor

18 products, 1-, 2-horsepower, that may be sold

19 without any sort of variable speed drive or

20 control associated with them.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Al?

22 MR. HUBER: Under the scope that we have
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1 now, Gary, including the definitions of horsepower

2 range and clean water, 1 is already included, 1

3 through 200 is already included. So we don't need

4 to worry about that, it's already there.

5 MR. FERNSTROM: Well, I know, but I

6 think the suggestion was to take maybe some of

7 these things that may or may not already be there

8 and think about them in a different way. And what

9 I want to do is think about the 1-, 2-horsepower

10 boxed products in terms of wire-to-water

11 performance, expanding the test procedure to try

12 to get to a point where we might be able to define

13 their performance in terms of water power out and

14 electrical power in at some load points.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Al.

16 MR. HUBER: This is Al again. The

17 problem with that is, is that if you're going to

18 cover 1 through 200-horsepower by whatever

19 rulemaking that we have, you're going to have to -

20 - and not all of them are sold the way you have

21 described. I mean, we, as a company, sell a lot

22 of 1-, 2-, 3-horsepower pumps which are not -- a
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1 lot of them are not even variable speed because

2 that's what the industry has. If we're not going

3 to do that, if you're going to try to segment,

4 you're going to have part of that in this and part

5 of it in another. Are you going to now raise this

6 up to 5-horsepower or 4-horsepower? I mean, where

7 are you going to make this cutoff?

8 MR. FERNSTROM: Well, I look to you to

9 help inform that, but I think maybe we ought to go

10 to lunch.

11 MR. HUBER: I agree.

12 (Laughter.)

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's go to lunch. And

14 so let me just clarify my intention for the group,

15 I'm hoping that we now have the rudiments of a

16 proposal surrounding scope and that when we return

17 from lunch, we can do additional clarification,

18 ask questions, get additional comments. I'm

19 certainly trying to figure out some way to

20 accommodate what the overt and well-spoken needs

21 of the energy efficiency advocacy community are

22 considering circulators to understand that piece
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1 of it. At the same time, it seems as though there

2 is this opportunity to get clear on what is

3 available now for us to get started with. So I

4 myself, even having presented the proposal, I'm

5 completely agnostic, but I do want us, as a group,

6 to sort and sift through this.

7 And I'll take one more comment before we

8 go to lunch.

9 MR. HANDZEL: Just one last thing for us

10 to think about lunch, I would just suggest that we

11 quit calling it "Lot 11" and we clearly define the

12 images of what the pumps look like so that

13 everybody can see exactly what we're talking about

14 because even Lot 11, I think people have different

15 conceptions in their mind what's in that. So we

16 need to either get Al's chart that he has in front

17 of him here or one of HI's letters that was sent

18 to DOE or something clearly to show what we are

19 suggesting be in scope.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Can we make a copy of

21 your chart, Al? Okay. We'll see if we can get

22 that done over lunch.
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1 MR. HUBER: I probably have a better

2 copy.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: A better copy would be

4 good. Whoever has got it. Do you all have a copy

5 of -- which chart is it, Al? Go show that group,

6 Sarah's group over there. Let's make sure and get

7 copies of this over lunch.

8 MR. POWERS: There is also they mailed

9 May 17th.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: The HI presentation?

11 MR. POWERS: The HI presentation to DOE

12 is dated May 17th, and it had the details of it

13 there, too.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: So we have worked hard

15 this morning. I'm tired already. It's 12:15.

16 Let's take an hour for lunch. You know where to

17 find it, I believe, all of you. Do think about

18 this, about how we can commit to making progress

19 and also leave our minds open for what might be

20 coming as additional data and analysis looking

21 ahead. We'll resume at 1:15.

22 (Lunch break.)
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: So in the remaining hour2 and-a-half, really, that we have, I have to

3 accomplish a couple of things. The first is that

4 I want to have brief discussion on the proposal

5 that's on the table to see if we can arrive at a

6 preliminary sense of scope noting that looking at

7 that, we may need to reconsider how you might

8 state that.

9 The second thing is that we want to

10 establish -- we want to do a brief review of the

11 ground rules and take additional comments on those

12 and then baring now major problems of

13 difficulties, adopt these.

14 And then finally, having gone through

15 the other items in this list, want to look ahead

16 to the schedule and see if we can't zero on some

17 additional dates, say, for the next -- I think we

18 had a pretty good preliminary date for January --

19 probably for the next 3-4 months after that. And

20 I've got an extended calendar as well. Okay? So

21 that's what I'm hoping to do.

22 And the first item on the agenda is to
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1 take additional comments or thoughts on the

2 proposed, and I guess we'd characterize it as

3 probably our best thinking on a preliminary scope

4 of work. Additional thoughts based on that? I've

5 tried to render it in a way that I thought would

6 be satisfactory to most everyone at the table.

7 I'm not sure I succeeded.

8 MR. POWERS: Doug, one of the

9 suggestions, whatever we end up deciding on the

10 scope, maybe being U.S.-based and U.S. is as smart

11 as anybody in the world, we come up with our own

12 definition of what that group wants to be. I'd

13 even try to stay away from the word "lot." Call

14 it something totally different. This is U.S.A.

15 This is DOE. This is all of us in this room --

16 the suggestion that maybe we call it -- so that

17 the message gets out there there's Lot 11 or

18 whatever, Lot 28, 29, and then there is this other

19 one which is the U.S. version and whatever is

20 recommended it's named. That way it's

21 distinctive.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. That works for me.
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1 And then your distinct -- your proposal, in fact,

2 is distinctive, isn't it? Isn't the HI proposal -

3 - it is distinctive, yeah, customized to suit the

4 American market.

5 MR. POWERS: I mean even HI code or

6 something, whatever. Just call it, you know,

7 whatever Lucas feels --

8 MR. BROOKMAN: I think that sounds

9 sensible to me. We can worry about that later.

10 Other -- I'm particularly wanting to

11 hear anybody who would dissent over the -- who's

12 offended by the existing proposal. Joanna, I'm

13 glad you --

14 MS. MAUER: So I'm not offended by the

15 existing proposal. So just looking at what HI is

16 proposed and how that differs from what the

17 categories of pumps that DOE outlined in the

18 framework document, I think from our perspective,

19 we'd like to have data to be able to make an

20 informed decision about whether it makes sense to

21 include or exclude certain pump types and then

22 just a specific comment about double-suction
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1 pumps.

2 I think our understanding is that

3 they're much more commonly used in the U.S. than

4 the EU, so it's possible that there is very good

5 reason to exclude them in the EU, but that doesn't

6 necessarily mean that it makes sense to exclude

7 them in the U.S.

8 if they're used differently here. So

9 we'd very much like to see data just to be able to

10 --

11 MR. POWERS: Well, question: What do

12 you mean by double-suction? What's the definition

13 of double-suction to you? There are all types of

14 double-suction so. When you make comment that

15 those are used mainly in the U.S., I don't totally

16 agree with that just from what we see. But in

17 your definition of double-suction, which kind of

18 double- section?

19 MS. MAUER: So I'm referring to double20 section as defined in the framework document.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Do you have a page

22 number?
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1 MS. MAUER: This was page 5, single2 stage, axial split.

3 MR. POWERS: Okay. Single-stage, axial

4 split? Okay. Horizontally split, right? I mean

5 not horizontally split, just axial split?

6 MR. HUBER: Axially split.

7 MR. POWERS: We're not trying to put you

8 in a corner. We're actually -- because there is a

9 significant difference.

10 MR. FERMAN: Joanna would like me to

11 comment on this. What we're talking about --

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Your name is?

13 MR. FERMAN: Randy Ferman.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.

15 MR. FERMAN: The double-suction, single16 stage, horizontal axial split-type pump. It has

17 come up in the past that perhaps most of the pumps

18 of that type manufactured are used for fire

19 suppression, but we also know that they are used

20 in water distribution, water treatment and various

21 other commercial and municipal industrial

22 services. So it's just a question of, you know, we
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1 really don't have data on how many of them are out

2 there and whether this is a significant energy

3 opportunity.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So Joanna, I want

5 to return to where you started with your comment

6 about wanting to see the data. Everybody wants to

7 see the data. I think we're all aligned on that,

8 right. And so is it going to -- noting that we're

9 going to direct the analysts to work on the data,

10 figure out what to do with all the categories of

11 data consistent with what Lucas was saying earlier

12 and make that available, hopefully before the next

13 meeting in January, if that is the case, are you

14 willing to accept the preliminary scope as we

15 articulated it?

16 MR. ADIN: Let me just make a point

17 first, Doug, and just very briefly in response.

18 We do have some data on the pumps that you're

19 talking about, so certainly to the extent we can,

20 we'll make that available. It won't provide much

21 in the way of the downstream analysis because

22 we're missing a lot of things like shipments and
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1 that kind of stuff. But to the extent we're able

2 to gather any additional data in the time before

3 the next meeting, we will make that available. So

4 that's one thing.

5 The other thing is just in the very

6 general sense, I think we need to keep in mind

7 that this is -- what we're contemplating right now

8 is the bare minimum scope. There are other things

9 that are technically still on the table that we

10 still have yet to talk about, and I think for

11 those of us that really care about them being

12 included, it's a matter of proving ourselves, you

13 know, they shouldn't be. So there are still, you

14 know, things that we're looking at. This is just

15 the absolute bare minimum of what we do definitely

16 intend to cover and then understanding that it may

17 go broader.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: And it's consistent with

19 what we know to be the progression of a test

20 procedure, right?

21 MR. ADIN: Generally speaking, yes.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: And creates a plausible
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1 starting point for us to establish a minimum.

2 Tom.

3 MR. ECKMAN: My presumption is that

4 these are bare shaft pump only discussions.

5 MR. HUBER: (Inaudible.)

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Al, turn your mic on.

7 MR. HUBER: Someone's changed the chart

8 again back to the -- there it is. Yeah, that's

9 it.

10 MR. ADIN: But to answer your question

11 more directly, Tom, for the purposes of

12 consideration of minimum scope, yes.

13 MR. ECKMAN: That's why I was clarifying

14 bare shaft pump.

15 MR. ADIN: Right.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve.

17 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI,

18 again. I hadn't seen this. This is the entire

19 chart? That's not a second page? This is the

20 full

21 --

22 MR. HUBER: Yes, it is.
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1 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. I just wanted to

2 know just for clarification, just in case it's --

3 throwing a lot of terminology out here and that

4 helps. Thank you.

5 MR. POWERS: And earlier, when I was

6 talking about the eight categories, that's what I

7 referred to the HI eight, right, and AS. European

8 has different but I think it was brought up by

9 Joanna earlier. In Europe, right, there are still

10 a lot of 50-60 cycle applications all over the

11 place, whether it's the chemical industry, water

12 industry, whatever, so they'll refer to HI

13 categories a lot in the course of the year for

14 some of their own. But the HIs have been around a

15 little bit longer to some Europeans and that's why

16 they still refer to some of

17 --

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve.

19 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Thank you. That's very

20 helpful and, again, Steve Rosenstock, EEI. It

21 might be an HI letter. If it is, please forgive

22 me. I haven't had a chance to see it. Is there a
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1 -- I see the descriptions. I'm just wondering is

2 there another note field that talks about typical

3 applications typical uses, again, just to -- again

4 it would just kind of -- no. Okay. Just --

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary.

6 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary Fernstrom from

7 California IOUs. Did these categories include the

8 type of pump where the motor provides the shaft

9 for the pump and impeller?

10 MR. HUBER: Yes, it is. The (inaudible)

11 -

12 -

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Al, get to your

14 microphone, please?

15 MR. HUBER: It's an OH7.

16 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay, got it. Thank

17 you very much.

18 MR. HUBER: And also OH5.

19 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. Thank you.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie.

21 MR. CAPPELLINO: As far as the question

22 around the application and such, we probably
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1 should have some discussion on horsepower range,

2 temperature range. That's another piece of the

3 discussion that I think helps us from a scope

4 definition standpoint. So I think before we --

5 MR. BROOKMAN: So in the earlier -- go

6 ahead, Chuck.

7 MR. POWERS: I think also to help

8 everybody, the pump guys probably know this, but

9 there was a report written that you guys should

10 get access to and yourself, okay, that was done by

11 Hydraulic Institute to Department of Energy. And

12 in there, it didn't just show the OH numbers, it

13 showed the pictures. So to your question, Gary it

14 would show here's a foot-mounted pump with the

15 motor connected, a back side; we call that close16 coupled. And it says it up there, but what's nice

17 is it also shows the European code, the HI code.

18 You know, the pictures are worth a thousand words.

19 So you get away from ambiguities and people

20 guessing and wondering and what does it mean, and

21 the double- suction that you mentioned, just to

22 help.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: I want to clarify the

2 source. So chuck, this is from HI to DOE?

3 MR. POWERS: This was HI to DOE. I

4 brought all these documents with me --

5 MR. BROOKMAN: And is it a part of the -

6 -

7 MR. POWERS: -- but this was dated May

8 2nd of 2013.

9 MR. DOE: Subject to response.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So I'm wondering

11 if that's a part of the -- it's in the record?

12 MS. KOHL: I'm sure it is.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: It's in the docket.

14 MS. WIDDER: This is the HI written

15 comments that we're looking at right now.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: At any rate, the document

17 you're referring to is in the docket? It's in the

18 DOE docket.

19 MR. POWERS: Right and what she's

20 referring to is on page 3, is that chart too.

21 That's on -- again, my only purpose here is to

22 help educate or whatever. There's a lot of good
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1 stuff that's been put out and it may just clear

2 through that. You know, not your fault, just --

3 because believe me, there's plenty of documents

4 out there.

5 MS. WALTNER: And to clarify, this is

6 your response to the framework document, your full

7 comment letter?

8 MR. POWERS: Yeah.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Gary.

10 MR. FERNSTROM: So this is Gary again.

11 Looking at your picture, close-coupled means that

12 at least in some cases, there isn't any coupling

13 at all; the motor shaft just goes right through

14 it. Thank you very much.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So Charlie, what I

16 recall -- I'm just going to push it out there - -

17 was 1 to 200 horsepower, and I don't recall what

18 was said about a temperature range.

19 MR. HUBER: Temperature range was minus

20 10 degrees Celsius --

21 MS. DOE: Grab the mic, please.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Al.
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1 MR. HUBER: -- plus 120 degrees Celsius;

2 minus 10 degrees Celsius to 120 degrees Celsius.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

4 MR. CAPPELLINO: This is Charlie. I

5 think the distinction there is products design for

6 that application range, so a pump that's designed

7 for a high temperature application would be not

8 (inaudible.)

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Does that create a

10 conflict with that list up there?

11 MR. CAPPELLINO: Yeah, this one's right

12 there, right?

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Joanna.

14 MS. MAUER: So I just wanted to clarify.

15 Some of those parameters apply to end-suction

16 pumps, not to the last, not to the multi-stage

17 submersible? Is that correct?

18 MR. HUBER: No.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Al, use the microphone.

20 MR. HUBER: That's not correct.

21 MS. MAUER: So those parameters --

22 MR. HUBER: Do you want me to -- I'll
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1 read you all the -- the whole list so that you can

2 see. It's only clean water, 26 GPM and greater to

3 a maximum of 459 feet which would encompass that

4 last category that you see there. Horsepower

5 range 1 to 200, design temperatures negative 10

6 degrees Celsius to plus 120 degrees Celsius.

7 MS. MAUER: Thank you. So my

8 understanding that the EU standards Lot 11 have

9 different parameters for like the submersible

10 pumps, for example, compared to the end suction?

11 I'm just trying to understand whether -- what

12 you're proposing is consistent or something

13 different than.

14 MR. HUBER: I think it's consistent. We

15 believe it to be consistent.

16 MS. MAUER: Okay, because -- so in the

17 EU, I believe they have -- they define end suction

18 water pump where they talk about up to 150

19 kilowatts, for example, but I'm not sure that

20 that's included in their definitions of vertical

21 multi-stage, submersible multi-stage.

22 MR. HUBER: Do you see that outlined
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1 somewhere else? I mean do you see those? Do you

2 see horsepower is related only to those pumps?

3 MS. MAUER: I believe I see it only for

4 end-suction water pump.

5 MR. HUBER: As far as I know, to the

6 best of my knowledge, what I just read you is

7 equivalent to all of their Lot 11.

8 MS. MAUER: Okay. And I don't have a

9 specific proposal or difference of opinion. I

10 think just maybe we can just go back and clarify

11 whether it's similar or something different than

12 what's --

13 MR. HUBER: I think it's correct because

14 when we did our minimum efficiency index, we had

15 to equal what theirs were and I would suspect that

16 it's equal. Some of these other folks around the

17 table maybe can tell me something different.

18 MR. POWERS: Theirs shows up to 200 kW.

19 MS. MAUER: End-suction up to 150 kW.

20 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Yeah, that's 200

21 horsepower.

22 MR. HUBER: That's 200 horsepower.
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1 MR. ROSENSTOCK: 150 kW is 200

2 horsepower.

3 MS. MAUER: Right, for -- at least what

4 I'm looking at it says in the definition for end5 suction water pump, up to 150.

6 MR. HUBER: I don't know. I'm telling

7 you that I believe it covers the entire group.

8 MS. MAUER: Okay.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: (Inaudible) Al, she's

10 looking right at the legislation, where she's

11 puling it out. That's -- she's pulling specific

12 things in the definitions of each pump where it

13 gives a range, but it talks about the whole

14 regulatory you've -- the full range. It's more

15 specific by pump in the definitions.

16 MR. HUBER: The full range for all is

17 what I gave you. Those are the limits for the

18 full range.

19 MS. MAUER: Okay. So, now, my

20 understanding was that -- I had assumed that you

21 were referring to end-suction pumps and so we

22 haven't talked about, kind of among the advocates,
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1 whether we think those parameters make sense for

2 the other types of pumps. So maybe we can just go

3 back

4 --

5 MR. HUBER: I'm really surprised at

6 that.

7 MS. MAUER: So I'm not -- I've --

8 MR. HUBER: Shocked.

9 MS. MAUER: So I've seen you many times

10 refer to those parameters, and then when I went to

11 the EU regulations and I saw that those seemed to

12 apply only apply to end-suction in the EU

13 standards. So I assume that you were also

14 referring to --

15 MR. HUBER: I think what Greg said is

16 the overarching legislation shows those parameters

17 that I just listed for the entire product range

18 including end-suction.

19 MS. MAUER: Okay. We should just take a

20 look.

21 MR. HANDZEL: Can I take one crack at it

22 before --
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Mark, please.

2 MR. HANDZEL: So, Joanna, what we did,

3 instead of putting it in there for each of the

4 pump categories, we condensed it all into one

5 overarching cover -- like most of us don't make

6 end-suction pumps that go over 125 horsepower, for

7 example, or something like that. But we just put

8 an overall horsepower range in there, 1 to 200,

9 because that included to map what the EU standard

10 did. Okay? So it would almost be like if you

11 took that definition and put it up there next to

12 each one of these classifications of pumps but

13 many of them don't, you know, they don't cover

14 that whole range.

15 MR. HUBER: They may not cover the range

16 but they're within that range. That's what we're

17 saying.

18 MR. HANDZEL: Right.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: so these are useful

20 clarifying questions. Do we have additional

21 questions or comments, because I'm about to see --

22 go ahead, Steve.
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1 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI.

2 I'm just -- and again, I hate to, you know -- on

3 the greater than 200 horsepower, there might --

4 well, on a larger side, there might be more

5 variety of drivers. I don't know what the DOE

6 data is going to find in terms of some of the

7 really large ones in terms of -- they're not all

8 going to be in horsepower. There's going to be

9 some that are rated to BTUs, so equivalent BTUs, I

10 guess, would be okay for the non-electric drivers.

11 At the small end, it spills over.

12 Unfortunately, the 1.0 horsepower does spill over

13 into the circulator pump discussion. I'll just

14 stop there, you know, that there is that

15 possibility there too because that straddles the

16 middle of the circulator pump range just as --

17 again, just something for everybody to consider --

18 I'm not saying one way or the other -- but that

19 1.0 horsepower could have an interesting impact

20 depending on what's decided on the circulator

21 pumps.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Gotcha. Mark.
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1 MR. HANDZEL: Steve, the only thing I

2 have to say is again, the problem is is there's

3 all these criteria that we described in the --

4 they're all inter-related, so when you're talking

5 clean water, you're not going to see many other

6 drivers besides motors. Okay? So I guess that's

7 why you can't pick on just one of the criteria and

8 use that as a judging criteria for the overarching

9 thing. So --

10 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock. I

11 didn't mean to judge. I'm just trying to --

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

13 MR. ROSENSTOCK: -- just the possible --

14 just thinking about the possible implications

15 depending on the final decision to terms of, you

16 know, what's going to happen in a few -- that's --

17 I wasn't trying to judge. I was just trying to

18 think as this, then this.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Chuck.

20 MR. POWERS: And you probably have it,

21 Joanna, but you can get a copy -- this is Chuck

22 from Flowserve -- the actual commission which was
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1 dated 25th of June. They scatter around several

2 sections, right, but one section on the back which

3 is Article 1 talked about scope, and it definitely

4 says minus 10 to 120 specifically, which is

5 exactly the message here.

6 If you look down on -- it's Article 1,

7 paragraph 2a, and it gets into some pump types.

8 Then if you keep going to your point, the end9 suction, which is in Article 2, gets in -- they

10 also go -- it's 16-bar. They limit bars to

11 pressure rating of the casing, right.

12 MS. MAUER: Right.

13 MR. POWERS: And that's, by the way,

14 25.4 on the -- to get the PSI. They specifically

15 list the maximum horsepower, the 150 kW. Then

16 what they try to do is be a little more specific.

17 And as you go down, you can read each one of

18 these, you go down to the bottom, submersibles,

19 they specifically say - - they get into the

20 centimeters and all that, but even in Europe, they

21 go by inches in the casings. They say 4 and 6-

22 inch, which is right up there on 4 and 6-inch. So
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1 I think -- you know, again, I'm not trying to -- I

2 think what Al and the team had done before was try

3 to just get it into one document and try to, you

4 know, flesh it a little bit to make it a little

5 clearer.

6 MS. MAUER: So just to clarify. So the

7 EU standards don't specify up to 150 kW for the

8 multi- stage but the HI proposal was to apply that

9 150 kW upper limit to the other pump types.

10 MR. HANDZEL: And they may not be made

11 because it's a broad range of horsepower.

12 MS. MAUER: That's fine.

13 MR. HANDZEL: Okay.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: So I'm about to see if

15 this proposal on scope, if it's going to be

16 agreeable to the working group. With your

17 permission, I'm about to do that, okay?

18 We've established that under your ground

19 rules, which have not been fully formally adopted,

20 that we can have two dissenting votes and still

21 obtain a consensus. And I want to be careful how

22 a characterize this. Steve, you have a question?
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1 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Go ahead. I'll wait

2 for your characterization.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. I want to be

4 careful of how this is characterized because I

5 think this is how I've done it previously and how

6 I just did it the last time. This is what I would

7 call the preliminary and minimum scope. This is

8 what we presume at a minimum will get done. It's

9 consistent with the test procedure work that's

10 underway, we hope, and will inform -- create a

11 pathway for analysis and also ongoing review of

12 other product types looking ahead. Okay? So

13 that's what I think this is.

14 So are we ready to see whether we agree

15 that this should be the preliminary and minimum

16 scope? All those in favor of accepting -- yes?

17 MR. FERNSTROM: A question.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Gary.

19 MR. FERNSTROM: Thank you. Gary

20 Fernstrom, California IOUs. So does this proposed

21 preliminary minimum scope include the small

22 horsepower circulators?
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: The preliminary minimum

2 scope that I'm referring to is that.

3 MR. FERNSTROM: All right. Well, I'd

4 just like to express the opinion before we vote

5 that I'm representing my client's not going to be

6 happy unless we agree to analyze circulators.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Right.

8 MR. FERNSTROM: And it looks to me like

9 that is not part of this preliminary minimum

10 scope.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: I should have expanded my

12 statement. I think I elaborated more before that

13 that being the preliminary minimum scope that

14 other types of pumps will be subject to analysis

15 and review looking ahead, preferably, presumably

16 at our meeting in January including the circulator

17 pumps.

18 MR. FERNSTROM: All right. If that's a

19 condition of our agreement --

20 MR. BROOKMAN: I think we got to look at

21 it. Everybody wants -- all you folks want to look

22 at it. There's no denying five or six individuals
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1 want to look at a data source, that opportunity.

2 We got to do it.

3 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay. So I'm just a

4 little perplexed with the language --

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Do you wish to offer new

6 language?

7 MR. FERNSTROM: Why don't we say this is

8 the preliminary minimum scope with the

9 understanding that we're going to be looking at

10 circulators?

11 MR. BROOKMAN: That' sounds good to me.

12 Yes, Steve.

13 MR. ROSENSTOCK: I'd like to expand.

14 That would be understanding circulators and other

15 pumping technologies as the working group sees

16 fit.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: That sounds better yet.

18 MR. FERNSTROM: Yes, yes.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: And I think that was what

20 I hoped to accomplish by this scoping description.

21 MR. ADIN: and my understanding is that

22 it's still also on the table whether we're going
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1 to consider an efficiency metric for the pump plus

2 motor system, because this is just bare pumps, so

3 --

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.

5 MR. ADIN: -- another element that we

6 still have yet to --

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Resolve.

8

9

10 MR. ADIN: -- resolve.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Right.

12 MR. ADIN: Right.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: And that's consistent

14 with the discussion we had for half the day

15 yesterday. Yes.

16 MR. ADIN: If you don't mind, if I can

17 ask one more question just to get a sense from the

18 group. Is it the sense of the group that we're

19 not interested in pursuing efficiency metrics and

20 evaluations of efficiency all the way out to a

21 variable-speed drive, because I've heard varying

22 views on that over the last two days and I don't
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1 know -- I mean understood that this is all still

2 open. We could consider it. It's just what are

3 we going to talk about at the next meeting? Do we

4 need to gather data to form a more concrete

5 opinion on that issue?

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Well, let's hear from Al

7 first and then Steve.

8 MR. HUBER: I think on behalf of the

9 manufacturers, we originally proposed that. We

10 didn't have one in the middle called motors and

11 pumps because we didn't -- originally -- because

12 we didn't see any need for that since motors are

13 already --

14 MR. BROOKMAN: These -- first of all,

15 you originally proposed what?

16 MR. HUBER: We proposed rating the bare

17 pump on efficiency and we proposed what we called

18 extended product which included the VFD. So we

19 are definitely on board with that. We think it's

20 -- it can return the highest energy savings

21 possible, much more than doing anything with the

22 pumps themselves, so yes, we're on board. We are
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1 on board with that. I really appreciate you

2 raising that question. That's really critical.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve, then coming back

4 to Doug.

5 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Well, I thought it was

6 kind of a separate question. I thought it was

7 just -- you were just kind of concentrating on a

8 minimum scope of a starting point for what we all

9 agreed would definitely be covered under this

10 negotiation and before your thing about what --

11 you know, and just the bare pump category and this

12 is the -- you know, this is what we're definitely

13 going to cover in terms of the drive.

14 I think part of the other aspects are

15 getting the data back to say what's happening in

16 the marketplace with what's being sold out there.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: This is our fundamental

18 presumption here that we're going to establish

19 now, hopefully, the bare minimum that we're going

20 to take up and consider. And then we're going to

21 use the best data we can get; we're going to dig,

22 dig, dig to get it; we going to do proper analysis
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1 and then we're going to consider the other issues

2 that we've discussed for the last day-and-a-half,

3 okay, including the three categories that Lucas

4 just laid out.

5 MR. ADIN: Right. So this is bare

6 minimum contingent upon decisions we may make

7 based on other data that we --

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Now to Doug.

9 MR. POTTS: Yeah, Doug Potts, American

10 Water. Just a comment with regard to the use of

11 variable-speed drives, and this is probably beyond

12 the scope of today's discussion. We have plenty

13 of time for this in the future, but from our

14 perspective as the water industry, there are

15 applications where using VFDs will give us great

16 energy savings due to affinity laws. A lot of

17 (inaudible) where it actually does not give us --

18 in fact, we think the ideal water system --

19 because we have the benefit of elevated storage

20 tanks in our system, we think the ideal in terms

21 of efficiency is constant-speed pump, no VFD, and

22 you use the storage to respond to the fluctuation
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1 and demand. So we actually try to educate folks

2 in our company to not just slap on VFDs.

3 I mean people like it because of the

4 operational flexibility, but there is an

5 efficiency loss, as I'm sure most of you know,

6 with the use of a VFD, maybe 2 to 3 percent at

7 full speed. So I just want to caution against

8 that. That's something

9 --

10 MR. BROOKMAN: This seems like an

11 extended discussion --

12 MR. POTTS: Right.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: -- and one we will have

14 fully over the span of months, fortunately.

15 Steve.

16 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve. And again,

17 getting back to Lucas, I think what this vote

18 means is in that bare -- going forward, we all

19 agree that under that bare pump diagram, that we

20 all agreed that under that bare pump diagram, that

21 bare pump efficiency area, that we agree that

22 these pumps all will be -- we're going to try to
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1 figure out efficiency values for these. We're

2 agreed that this is the minimum, that we're

3 definitely going to do this going forward, that

4 this is just a first step, but we've all agree

5 that all of these, even if, you know, some

6 manufacturers might have qualms about one of these

7 pumps, well, too bad; we've all agreed that we're

8 going to go forward under the bare pump category

9 with these pump types under these code names; that

10 we are going to do our best to set an efficiency

11 value for this equipment under that bare pump type

12 of --

13 MR. BROOKMAN: If we do nothing else, we

14 will create a term sheet for bare pumps that

15 addresses these.

16 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Yes.

17 MR. ADIN: I think that's right unless

18 anyone else has a dissenting view on that. It's

19 just what --

20 MR. BROOKMAN: We haven't agreed but

21 that's my restatement of it. And then, in

22 addition, because several other issues have been
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1 raised, moving from pumps to pumps and motors to

2 the whole system context and also the other

3 categories of pumps that are not included here

4 that have already been discussed, like circulators

5 and other things conceivably, we're going to do a

6 data dive. We're going to deep analysis. We're

7 going to do everything we know how to do to figure

8 out whether we should expand beyond this bare

9 minimum scope. Okay?

10 MR. FERNSTROM: Can I? So, Gary,

11 California IOUs. Is that statement explicit

12 enough in the record that that's, in effect, the

13 motion we're voting on and we don't need to write

14 it down?

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Well, I don't know. I

16 was curious about that myself. Do you wish for me

17 or someone to write it down or review -- I've

18 restated it. It will be in the transcript as

19 recorded.

20 MR. FERNSTROM: Well, it's a little

21 squirrely. On the other hand, you covered all the

22 points, so if we go back to the record, it's there
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1 that --

2 MR. BROOKMAN: I think we're going to --

3 and I think in January, we're going to start to

4 revisit this.

5 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay. I'm happy.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay? So -- and I'm

7 trying to balance between full explication and

8 moving us rapidly ahead here. So I'm going to

9 call the question -- Lucas.

10 MR. ADIN: Let me just offer a

11 suggestion. Well, it was actually offered by our

12 counsel, but that we'll go back to the record

13 after this meeting and just make sure we have a

14 clear, concise description of the scope, that

15 we'll put it out on the SharePoint or whatever,

16 make sure everybody has a copy. To the extent

17 anybody disagrees or thinks we've misconstrued

18 something, we'll deal with it at the next meeting.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: So the one thought that I

20 had -- I just want to be clear about this. We're

21 specifying by this vote that this is a bare

22 minimum and leaving the door open for additional
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1 pumps to be considered.

2 MR. ROSENSTOCK: As you said,

3 preliminary minimum, yes.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah, and our voting

5 rules say if there -- if we accept this, then

6 they're accepted. Our voting rules say three

7 dissents and we don't accept the new proposal. So

8 I could easily imagine we have more than three

9 industry folks that have an investment in this

10 that we could get three dissenting votes that

11 could block further consideration. I don't want

12 that to happen.

13 MR. POWERS: I have a question here

14 then.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: You understand my logic

16 here, right? I'm just going to the nuts and bolts

17 here. Go ahead.

18 MR. POWERS: I have a question. There

19 is high risk for that. I'm going to tell you why.

20 I hear what you're saying Steve. We shut down a

21 whole bunch of pump companies because of something

22 today - - just let me finish, okay -- that we
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1 don't think through thoroughly and get all the

2 final data, we made a big mistake.

3 Number two -- let me finish -- number

4 two, we have a definition of a product type but in

5 the rules, Al listed off some flows, some

6 horsepower to make sure that's part of it,

7 whatever that is.

8 And then the third thing is that we're

9 not being clear on, there are products, I think,

10 already agreed upon, and maybe you all haven't

11 yet, maybe you want to, that are not going to be

12 considered even though they're so-called water

13 pumps, such as - - if I'm wrong, correct me --

14 fire pumps, other things.

15 Let's make sure that's all -- so there's

16 three dynamics there. One is the basic product

17 type. Next is the limitations that -- and she

18 brought up a good point -- whatever that wants to

19 be. And the third thing is, you know, the

20 products within that water industry that we feel

21 that aren't appropriate, because if we don't

22 define that -- and I'll tell you, I do want to see
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1 it in writing.

2 Because of the questions that this

3 group, the past two days has been bringing up,

4 we'll spend the next two days talking about what

5 we talked about last time. I'm not going to go

6 through that and you will get a rejection on my

7 vote, okay. And we won't get anywhere. Let's be

8 down to earth on this.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So that was useful

10 because you tell us about --

11 MR. POWERS: No sense killing it today.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: -- other elements of a

13 potential exceptions and complications. Steve.

14 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Hi. Steve Rosenstock.

15 Yeah, again, thank you for that. I think that we,

16 you know, we -- and I think -- I'm speaking for

17 myself -- I think other people -- we don't want to

18 have negative impacts on U.S. manufacturers. We

19 don't want to have negative impacts, whether

20 they're large or small. Ideally, is we're

21 agreeing to the scope before anyone's done a

22 manufacturer impact analysis because obviously,
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1 the impact is really going to depend on what the

2 test procedure's going to be, and then what the

3 level of efficiency is going to be, and then how

4 much of a redesign that all manufacturers are

5 going to have to do and how much investment you're

6 going to have to make to meet the standards.

7 This is just saying -- this is just

8 defining that, again, for both large -- you know,

9 this is all in the Hydraulic Institute -- for the

10 large and small manufacturers, you've agreed to go

11 down this course for the pumps that are laid out

12 on the slide that, you know, once the ball starts

13 rolling, you know, the impact is -- there's going

14 to be the impact analysis, the economic analysis.

15 There is a possibility of possible negative

16 impacts on certain manufacturers. That's with any

17 rulemaking. That's with any standard. We want to

18 minimize that. We hope there's none but we want

19 to minimize it as much as possible. At least I

20 know a lot of people do.

21 But again, once this ball is rolling,

22 eventually there's going to be an efficiency
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1 standard, and eventually there are going to be

2 some impacts on manufacturers, especially in terms

3 of test procedure, investments and --

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

5 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: I want to press on here

7 and pardon me. So I raised a concern a moment

8 ago. I want to know what to do about this. It

9 seems to me as I interpret this, as I evaluate

10 this, adopting this bare preliminary minimum

11 scope, even giving the expansion that Chuck

12 provided and the caution, I want to make certain

13 that my promise, our promise to the efficiency

14 advocates that we'll consider other data and allow

15 other pumps to be included in this conversation

16 and included in the scope of this rulemaking, that

17 it doesn't get nixed by our decision-making rules.

18 It could easily be the case that we come

19 up with some additional pump types. There's good

20 analysis to support that. There are energy

21 efficiency gains that are there. And whether a

22 proposal is made that it be included in the scope,
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1 we move beyond the preliminary minimum scope and

2 we include blah-blah-blah-blah-blah-blah, and then

3 all of a sudden, on every occasion, there's more

4 than three votes to nix it, what do we do about

5 that? Maybe you can help us with this, Betsy.

6 MS. KOHL: I don't quite understand

7 (inaudible).

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Well, the ground rules

9 for the negotiated rulemaking -- for this

10 committee, which we haven't fully endorsed yet but

11 our definition for consensus is that three

12 individuals voting no block a consensus. That is

13 an agreement and that applies to the preliminary

14 agreements, the minor agreements and presumably

15 the ultimate agreement so that if we adopt this as

16 a preliminary and minimum scope and then other

17 folks come forward with additional proposals, then

18 three individuals in this room could block that

19 from being effectuated. Gary.

20 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary Fernstrom,

21 California IOUs. Well, that's the game. You

22 know, if we can't reach agreement on what we're
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1 going to look at for various reasons, we might

2 just as well pack up and go home anyway.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Well, okay. So

4 then I'm raising this caution. You understand

5 why, right?

6 MR. HUBER: Well, I think everyone's

7 aware of that.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah, okay.

9 MR. HUBER: That's always a possibility

10 and, you know, I'm not as worried as he is about

11 this, because this is a preliminary vote on a

12 preliminary scope and I have a right to change my

13 vote next time we vote on something, so I'm not

14 real worried about it.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: So lets' do this then.

16 I'm going to call the question. All those in

17 favor of accepting this bare preliminary minimum

18 scope --

19 MR. DOE: We're missing (inaudible).

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Well, when he

21 comes back, we'll ambush him.

22 MR. DOE: (Inaudible) we'll consider
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1 that an absence.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: All those in --

3 MR. HUBER: You want to include the

4 descriptions that we all went over, the

5 temperature and the horsepower and all that.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

7 (Crosstalk)

8 MR. BROOKMAN: So I'm asking for a vote

9 on the following: The Hydraulic Institute chart,

10 which is no longer up there -- the pump types,

11 that would include the pump products defined as

12 following: Clean water only, only standard pumps

13 of non- engineered or non-specialized design, only

14 clean water including gray water, 26 GPM and

15 greater up to a maximum of 459 feet TDH, that is a

16 maximum 459 feet TDH, horsepower range 1 to 200,

17 pumps designed to operate in a temperature range

18 from minus 10 C.

19 to plus 120 C. Note: 295 --

20 MR. HUBER: No. Forget that. Don't

21 read that.

22 MR. HANDZEL: That's a clarification of
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1 (inaudible). Don't confuse it.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: With all the discussion

3 we've had so far, I'm calling the question. All

4 those in favor of accepting this as our

5 preliminary minimum bare scope, please signify by

6 raising your hand. And we have three votes in

7 dissent. So we do not have a consensus

8 surrounding the scope?

9 MR. DOE: Ask if any votes are being

10 abstained.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Do we have any

12 abstentions? We have one two abstentions. Okay

13 so we now have -- raise your hands again in favor.

14 Eleven in favor. We have one no vote and --

15 MR. FERNSTROM: (Inaudible) change the

16 vote. I want to find out what these other people

17 are thinking. Can I have an opportunity --

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, you can. You can

19 talk for a few minutes.

20 MR. FERNSTROM: Why don't you give us

21 some time to --

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, just -- yeah, or
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1 you can do it -- you can either do it in caucus or

2 you can do it --

3 MS. MAUER: Can I just ask a question.

4 What are we gaining from having this vote today?

5 MR. STARR: Yeah, that's what I'm

6 unclear about.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

8 MR. STARR: (Inaudible) we're just going

9 to come back and consider the information next

10 week.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: I think -- right. It --

12 MR. STARR: Are we setting up a game so

13 that we can approve some of the scope and not

14 others, because what did I gain out of that? I'm

15 confused? What value does that have to me when

16 I've requested information and I have gotten it?

17 Then I going to vote on scope that we probably do

18 agree on, but some of the scope that we don't

19 agree on, I mean, doesn't -- you know, I'm trying

20 to understand why I'm going to be -- why does it

21 makes sense to me.

22 MR. ECKMAN: Yes. Doug says that this
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1 puts us in jeopardy of not incrementing the scope.

2 And so, you know, why we have full faith that we

3 can have that discussion, we have no assurance

4 that it wouldn't be nixed. So we're at a

5 disadvantage here with not having that information

6 yet in front of us to determine what the magnitude

7 is. We may fully agree with you in the end.

8 MR. STARR: And plus this is statutory

9 stuff required by the Department of Energy to do

10 anyway, so it's -- even if we did, as a group,

11 decide not to do it, it becomes kind of question

12 of whether you're carrying out your -- the

13 requirement

14 --

15 MR. ECKMAN: Yeah don't -- don't take

16 this to not -- that we're not in agreement that we

17 sought to do this. It's just formalizing it in

18 the form of a vote before we actually have the

19 information to decide whether other products ought

20 to be analyzed through the process.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Go ahead, Gary.

22 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary Fernstrom,
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1 California IOUs. Well, my understanding was

2 different. My understanding was at a minimum,

3 we're going to agree to look at these things and

4 they include not only the stuff up there but some

5 other things we've discussed, like circulators.

6 And it doesn't preclude us from looking at stuff

7 outside of this but at a minimum, we can have

8 assurance, as we move forward, we look at least

9 this.

10 MR. STARR: But you'll be voting on the

11 scope each time and so you'll be trying to expand

12 the scope but you won't -- you'll have three

13 people that are not interested in expanding the

14 scope. That's where the problem lies.

15 MR. FERNSTROM: Yes, but at some point

16 we've got to agree on what the scope is. We can't

17 fail to agree on it and leave it open-ended.

18 MR. STARR: How about when we have the

19 data next time or by the time -- I mean we're not

20 going to change our mind on this stuff. We

21 already agree. So I don't see why not the first

22 time we get here, the next --
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1 MR. FERNSTROM: So what products, for

2 example, are there that we might want to include

3 in the scope that we don't have the data on that

4 aren't explicitly recognized here as products that

5 we're going to get the data on?

6 MR. STARR: You can get the data on it.

7 It doesn't mean it's going to get approved

8 regardless of what that data is.

9 MR. FERNSTROM: But my question was what

10 products?

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Go ahead, Tom. And then

12 I'm coming back to Al.

13 MR. ECKMAN: If we were to vote that we

14 would exclude products after we found out the data

15 rather than include products, then I'd be more

16 comfortable, so.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: The way I tried to state

18 this was bare minimum plus other issues to be

19 considered, right, other pump types to be

20 considered.

21 MR. ECKMAN: Mine is jurisprudence

22 oriented, innocent until proven guilty so include
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1 it until proven not worth doing. Go ahead, Al.

2 MR. HUBER: I want to address something

3 Louis said that -- I think we're getting into an

4 attitude that it's us against you and we're not.

5 I want you to understand that. And you heard out

6 of one of the largest manufacturers of circulators

7 that they're not against the regulation of

8 circulators. Okay? So I'd appreciate it if you

9 guys would quit doing that, because we're not over

10 here trying to block -- you're assuming that we're

11 going to stand up and block everything you want to

12 do, and we're not going to do that. That's not

13 why we're here. We're here in good faith now. So

14 I would appreciate it if you would assume that

15 until we prove you wrong.

16 MR. STARR: Well, in that case then, I

17 don't see why we can't vote -- wait until we have

18 the information next week. What's the difference

19 if we decide on the scope right now or the first

20 five minutes when we have our next meeting? I

21 mean --

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas, you want to --
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1 MR. STARR: -- I don't get the

2 difference.

3 MR. ADIN: I don't know that it matters

4 that much personally. And to be perfectly honest

5 with you, I didn't have it in mind at the

6 beginning of this that we would vote on scope

7 today. I think we got to this bare minimum and

8 that seemed reasonable. But, really, the only

9 reason that the subject came up was to see how

10 comfortable we were with dates, because where we

11 ultimately need to approve today is this. So

12 that's really the end point of today, and so from

13 my standpoint, I'm perfectly comfortable waiting

14 on --

15 MR. BROOKMAN: So maybe what we could do

16 - - maybe we could just note, as the record would

17 note in complete detail, that most everyone in the

18 room is comfortable thinking about this last

19 proposal, this group of pumps and these

20 characteristics as being bare minimums even though

21 we might not chose to accept that today, vote on

22 it as our scope, but there's a presumption going
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1 forward that those listed there would be sort of a

2 bare minimum product for which this negotiating

3 committee would produce, what do you call them --

4 term sheet -- thank you -- for and then maybe we

5 simply wait until the next time we meet and take a

6 look at the data that's coming in in the interim.

7 Lucas.

8 MR. ADIN: Yeah, and I mean Tom's point

9 is a really good one. Like I understand his

10 viewpoint completely and thinking about it that

11 way. I mean, you know, if the members as a whole

12 are comfortable waiting and I think, you know,

13 probably because of that viewpoint, which to some

14 extent I do hold myself, waiting on voting on

15 scope specifically --

16 MR. BROOKMAN: So Tom's proposal is

17 essentially we're not going to act on this today,

18 is essentially the default or rule of thumb is all

19 potential pumps are in and excluding them would

20 take a consensus vote? Okay. We'll deal with

21 that later.

22 But let me say this. We made good
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1 progress today. We gained a lot of round on a

2 potential scope, a bare minimum scope, which is

3 not to be scoffed --

4 MR. ECKMAN: For the record, I don't

5 feel in opposition. I mean I don't -- I think

6 we're all in good faith here as far as I'm

7 concerned. Just from a process standpoint, my

8 view is that we exclude them when we have

9 information to exclude them rather than include

10 them. I understand where you guys come. The

11 information is already in your heads. You know

12 that solid stuff. I'm good with that. That's not

13 my issue. I want to know whether there's other

14 solid stuff out there.

15 MR. POWERS: The other thing is we got

16 to be context as if we had this broad a grouping,

17 whatever it ends up being, can we get it done by

18 August, which we agreed on. So now all of a

19 sudden, we have a variable here that could impact

20 those dates.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. Yeah.

22 MR. POWERS: You know, be careful. You
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1 know, whatever it ends up being, it could become

2 an anomaly and that becomes a problem.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: I'm with you. So we walk

4 into this with our eyes wide open surrounding

5 these realities.

6 Now, I'm very eager to press on with the

7 next subject. Maybe Joanna and Steve, you could

8 both agree --

9 MS. MAUER: I was just going to clarify.

10 I got a little nervous when we started -- you were

11 listing the parameters just because I'm a little

12 bit confused about whether, you know -- do they

13 apply to all the categories and I just want to

14 have a better understanding before we're voting on

15 those specifics.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: So maybe by the time we

17 meet in January, it'll be possible to have

18 something akin to a written proposal that will be

19 more descriptive and everybody will have a chance

20 to think about it or each caucus could bring a

21 written proposal and we see if we can arrive at a

22 more complete understanding of potential scope.
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1 Here's what I want to do. Steve, finish

2 us off in this segment.

3 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Well, I was just going

4 to say, you know, again, talking globally here, in

5 the framework document, it said, "DOE is

6 considering excluding self-priming pumps and pumps

7 designed for firefighting applications." Has DOE

8 looked at it anymore and is there any other -- I'm

9 just saying, you know, if we're starting that

10 everything's in until we excluded, it seemed like

11 DOE -- you know, fire -- in the rulemaking on

12 motors, DOE did not set any new standards for fire

13 pump motors because it was not economically

14 justified. You know, it was like 10,000-year

15 paybacks or something like that, so it didn't set

16 new standards for fire pump motors.

17 So I don't know if DOE has any more

18 information about self-priming pumps or I'll say

19 fire pumps, for lack of better words, in terms of

20 should those products -- should we consider

21 excluding those products as well.

22 MR. ADIN: Generally speaking, I don't
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1 think we have enough information right now to make

2 a determination like that.

3 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Thank you.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So here's what I'd

5 like to do next. I'd like to adopt these ground

6 rules noting that -- also, I'd like to take one

7 scan through for those of you that wanted to, as

8 you, Steve, did, take a look at the redline

9 version and see if we're comfortable with the

10 dates, noting that they may be preliminary, noting

11 they may need to be reconsidered, that Lucas

12 floated this morning.

13 And then I'd like to accept these ground

14 rules, adopt these ground rules as ones that will

15 guide the work of this working group. Can you go

16 to the redline version, please? He's got it up

17 there. So we just start at the top.

18 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Doug, if you scroll

19 down, it is redlined.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: There we go. Okay. So

21 the first one is parties to negotiation: working

22 group consists of those individuals whom the U.S.
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1 Department of Energy has appointed. That's pretty

2 straightforward.

3 The second one is in (e), additional

4 organizational interests may join the working

5 group after negotiations have begun with the

6 concurrence of the working group and given ASRAC

7 and DOE approval. That's consistent with the

8 discussion we had surrounding the authorities that

9 exist.

10 Attendance: Each working group member

11 agrees to make a good faith effort to attend in

12 person every session of the negotiating group. If

13 attendance in person is not feasible, attendance -

14 - that's a more clearer -- it's just a

15 clarification.

16 Quorum: This emerged in discussion.

17 Before any voting may occur, the working group

18 must establish a quorum of at least two-thirds of

19 the original or approved working group members

20 including remote attendance. So that's a new

21 provision and we were even willing to effectuate

22 it this last truncated vote. So we know it's
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1 operational. Okay.

2 MR. POTTS: Just a question about that.

3 I don't think it will be a problem but just in

4 case there's a question in the future, by our

5 count yesterday, 11 out of 17 was two-thirds. So

6 we are rounding down? Do we need to clarify that

7 in this document so there's no question later on?

8 I mean I think we agreed to take the number 11 out

9 but rounding down to the nearest whole number, you

10 know, something like, just so there's no debate in

11 the future?

12 MR. BROOKMAN: We need a

13 parliamentarian, I think, or somebody. I don't

14 know myself. I don't. Any additional thoughts on

15 this subject?

16 MS. WALTNER: I think it would make

17 sense to add a statement like that, rounding down

18 to the nearest whole person just to be clear,

19 because I would interpret two-thirds of 17 as 12

20 personally.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. We can do that.

22 MS. WALTNER: And maybe the size of the
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1 -- you know, if we have members drop out of the

2 group, then it just clarifies.

3 MR. ROSENSTOCK: This is Steven

4 Rosenstock. Why don't you just say rounding off

5 to the nearest whole person just in case the size

6 changes and it's, you know, 11.66 instead of

7 11.33, you round up to 12.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

9 MR. ROSENSTOCK: You know, round off to

10 the nearest whole number, not person.

11 MS. WALTNER: By the rules of rounding.

12 MR. ROSENSTOCK: By the rules of

13 rounding as done by Isaac Newton and Descartes and

14 whoever else the other famous mathematicians out

15 there.

16 MR. DOE: Where do we go then?

17 MR. BROOKMAN: We'll let the --

18 MR. ROSENSTOCK: And Pythagoris, excuse

19 me.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. We're going to

21 move on now to consensus. (b), which is now the

22 consensus clause; we had considerable discussion
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1 on this; that is the working group will operate by

2 consensus which for these purposes means no more

3 than two negative votes. And we've already

4 clarified in the proceeding clause that a quorum

5 requires a certain number of members being present

6 and voting. So everybody seems comfortable with

7 that today.

8 Subgroups: We just clarified --

9 MR. FERNSTROM: Doug?

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.

11 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. Could we

12 go back to consensus? I just want to make sure I

13 understand that, because we were talking about

14 three negative votes yesterday blocking consensus,

15 and that's consistent with what this says right?

16 MR. BROOKMAN: I think it is.

17 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: That was my reading of

19 it. Everybody can read it themselves. No more

20 than two negative votes, so three negative votes.

21 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay. Thank you very

22 much.
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1 MR. HANDZEL: So two (inaudible) --

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Looking at Betsy.

3 MR. HANDZEL: (Inaudible) --

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, moving on. We've

5 inserted the number 15: As needed, DOE will

6 provide appropriate support for the working group

7 subgroups which may include -- I think that's a

8 useful clarification. Subgroups are not

9 authorized to make decisions for the working

10 group. We had good discussion on this and we

11 decided that was sufficient and that if subgroups

12 need direction or guidance, that it will be

13 provided by the working group.

14 Subgroup meetings will be held between

15 the full sessions. All working group members will

16 be notified of all subgroup meetings. I think

17 that's good.

18 And then deadlines: These are the

19 deadlines, the dates that that we, looking at

20 other events and deadlines for DOE's submission to

21 OMB, practical we hope, and we'll see how they fit

22 with the scope as it emerges beginning next
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1 meeting. So the term sheet to ASRAC, hopefully by

2 July 15, which allows time for our back-and-forth

3 for termination of the group by September 1.

4 Comments on that? Everybody's okay with

5 that?

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. We're okay with

7 that. Okay. And then that is term sheet.

8 MS. WALTNER: That was the language

9 specific to transformers.

10 MR. ADIN: That doesn't apply to this

11 rule.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, right. Right.

13 Okay. Good. Thank you.

14 No negative comments: Each party,

15 except individuals that have previously voted

16 negatively on a final agreement, that's consistent

17 with the conversation we had. If you voted

18 negatively, you're not bound by that provision.

19 And then finally, no challenge except --

20 right -- except individuals -- same clause.

21 And if you want to get rid of me, you

22 may recommend my dismissal and you can do that
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1 beginning today.

2 (Laughter)

3 MR. BROOKMAN: That's just a

4 clarification. Meeting summaries: In the absence

5 of consensus, parties shall not be bound by

6 positions taken or accepted during these

7 negotiations.

8 And bottom, in red, both the meeting

9 summary and transcript will be made available to

10 the public and included in the rulemaking docket.

11 That's consistent with current practice and best

12 practice as well. That's it. Thank you,

13 Jeremiah.

14 So then are final comments before we try

15 to accept these ground rules? Okay. Then I'm

16 going to call the question. All those in favor of

17 accepting these ground rules, the ground rules

18 which will guide and bind participants in this

19 working group, raise your hands and say, aye.

20 (Whereupon, chorus of ayes.)

21 MR. BROOKMAN: I'm casting my eyes

22 around the room and I would note that we have all
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1 members present and everyone has signified by

2 saying aye. Thanks to all of you. That's our

3 second agreement. Thank you.

4 (Whereupon, a vote was held and the

5 working group ground rules were

6 accepted.)

7 (Applause)

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Well, I'm pleased

9 about that and I'm really pleased about the

10 foregoing conversation for a variety of reasons.

11 One, zeroed in on some scoping stuff that was very

12 meaningful, meaningful to a couple of different

13 caucuses here.

14 And also, I was especially pleased that

15 individuals didn't feel like they needed to go

16 along to get along -- that's not a useful thing to

17 do in a negotiation like this -- that they spoke

18 up when it was necessary to speak up. And I think

19 we obtained clarity and also some explication

20 surrounding good faith which I think are very

21 useful to do. Okay. So I thank you for that, that

22 bit of disclosure.
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1 Now, what else do we need to do? Oh,

2 scheduling. Let me hand this out. I made a Xerox

3 copy. This is six months beginning in July, just

4 so you've got it, because I don't think anybody's

5 -- because yesterday I gave you a copy which is

6 January through June. Did we hear back from

7 Brenda?

8 (Crosstalk)

9 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Doug, this is Steve.

10 We're supposed to be done by July 15th, so I'm not

11 sure why we need the --

12 MR. BROOKMAN: I'm just handing it out.

13 We may wish to just, you know, pencil a few dates

14 on the calendar.

15 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: I'm not sure where this

17 discussion is going to go, Steve. I'm not going

18 delimit it here at the front end.

19 Okay, so yesterday I think we pretty

20 much zeroed in on mid-week, two days, especially

21 in January, here in the Forrestal Building, and we

22 zeroed in on January 28 and 29. I hope that
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1 you've now had a chance to check your calendars

2 and that's going to be a workable date looking

3 ahead. Not? No? Tom? Is that -- does that week

4 work for you or are you --

5 MR. ECKMAN: (Inaudible). Yeah,

6 probably. The next week works.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: The first week of

8 February? See, I'm thinking about the analysis

9 that needs to get done. No? And --

10 MR. ECKMAN: (Inaudible)

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. Thank you. Yeah.

12 And Jeremiah, fortunately, is clever enough to

13 remind me about alternates, that if you can't

14 attend, and we're all so busy -- especially these

15 first few months, I expect we're going to have a

16 few conflicts. Tom, could you listen in on the

17 phone or have an alternate?

18 MR. ECKMAN: Yeah, probably.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Probably. Because it

20 seemed like most everyone was available 28, 29,

21 and we know we can get this room in January 28 and

22 29.
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1 MR. ECKMAN: I can do 30, 31.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: You could do 30, 31.

3 MR. ECKMAN: (Inaudible).

4 MS. WALTNER: For what it's worth, 30,

5 31's better for me, too.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: I didn't hear you, Meg.

7 MS. WALTNER: Oh. I just said 30 and 31

8 of January would be better for me.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Well, let's get a

10 show of hands. How many -- if we're considering

11 28, 29 and then 30, 31, let's get a show of hands

12 which two days consecutively work better for how

13 many people. So if it's better for you to do 28,

14 29, raise your hands. Really? So it's better for

15 virtually everyone to do 30, 31? Okay, we're

16 changing the date. And I need to find -- we got

17 the 30th in this room and we'll probably find

18 another room here in DOE to do the 31st, so please

19 mark that on your calendar. That is now an

20 established date.

21 So then how does the final week in

22 February look to everyone? That would be 24
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1 through 28 and presumably we're looking again --

2 we're trying for mid-week, 25, 26, 27; how do

3 those dates look? February 25 -- no, Meg?

4 MS. WALTNER: I have a conflict on the

5 25th and 26th.

6 MR. POWERS: I have a conflict

7 (inaudible).

8 MR. BROOKMAN: How does the 27th and

9 28th of February look?

10 MS. DOE: (Inaudible).

11 MR. BROOKMAN: She does? Is it a hard

12 conflict?

13 MS. DOE: (Inaudible).

14 MR. BROOKMAN: You don't know.

15 MR. POWERS: I have a conflict on the

16 27th and 28th.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: 27th, 28th. You want to

18 try for the first week of March? Or we can shift

19 it one week forward, try -- would it be too early

20 if we went one, two -- it would only be two weeks

21 as interim if we tried the week of the 17th of

22 February. No.
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1 How many of you would need to find an

2 alternate if we held it on the final week of

3 February?

4 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Which days?

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Pardon me. If we did 25,

6 26 or 27, 28, I'm not sure how to parse these. If

7 we did February 25, 26, how many of you would not

8 be able to attend? Three. Okay, that's

9 unfortunate. That' a start.

10 If we did 26, 27, how many of you would

11 not be able to attend? Three.

12 How many --

13 MR. ROSENSTOCK: (Off mic) just be a

14 half.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: And if we did 27, 28 of

16 February, how many of you would not be able to

17 attend? Just one and then one of our principal

18 analysts which we need to figure out some way to

19 accommodate that. So with regret, I think we're

20 going to schedule.

21 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Did you explore when

22 the (off mic) --
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: I didn't explore Monday

2 because that requires people to travel on Sunday

3 and that's --

4 MS. KOHL: Same thing with (off mic) --

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah, well -- but I think

6 most people are going to get out of here on Friday

7 afternoon in time to get home.

8 MS. WALTNER: I'm just -- is the first

9 week of March -- do people feel like that's

10 pushing things too long or were there other

11 conflicts, because February is a short month. HI

12 has their week-long meeting, feel like that's

13 going to feel pretty compressed but --

14 MR. BROOKMAN: What is it again?

15 MS. KOHL: Whether the first week -- if

16 we should look to the first week of March.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: I would definitely

18 consider first week of March. How does that work

19 for folks? First week of March? Okay, so yes,

20 first week of March? Okay. So then should we try

21 for mid-week, say Tuesday, Wednesday, the 4th,

22 5th? Yes? Going once. Yes. March 4th, 5th.
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1 Okay. So that takes that away. Good work, Meg.

2 Thank you.

3 So now we have established January 30,

4 31 and March 4, 5. Now, a --

5 MR. HANDZEL: Doug, I was just going to

6 say the only problem now is you just pushed us

7 into April, first week, which is a spring break

8 week, so you just -- so I would say that we have

9 to be careful now that we didn't just hurt

10 ourselves in April, so just to make that point.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: So it might even be that

12 with -- if we meet early in March, that we could -

13 - is it, I guess, all of April is spring break or?

14 (Off mic discussion)

15 MR. POWERS: If you're that early in

16 March, could we then continue on towards the end

17 of March?

18 MR. BROOKMAN: That's what I was

19 thinking. We had already considered maybe if we

20 stuck with the original schedule i--

21 MR. ROSENSTOCK: 25th and 26th?

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.
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1 MR. HANDZEL: But that's like two weeks

2 between the meeting, so it's really --

3 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Three weeks.

4 MR. HANDZEL: -- tight --

5 MR. BROOKMAN: That is pretty tight.

6 There's no doubt.

7 MR. POWERS: But to maintain the

8 schedule of September -- I mean July --

9 MR. BROOKMAN: But also --

10 FEMALE SPEAKER: (Off mic.)

11 MR. BROOKMAN: I like the potential for

12 us to just keep, you know --

13 MR. HANDZEL: We (inaudible) the 26th,

14 27th.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah?

16 MR. POWERS: Two times in the March of

17 Ides, that probably get --

18 MR. BROOKMAN: 26, 27 has been floated.

19 How about that? March 26th, 27, yes? Yes, yes?

20 Okay. We're doing it, March 26th, 27. And let me

21 note it's conceivable as we get a little further

22 out that we might entertain a meeting at one of
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1 your other locations, but I'm not sure DOE has

2 budget to do such a thing so we'll have to see if

3 that's possible.

4 MR. POWERS: And also, Doug, just for

5 view, I'd also like to recommend if it's possible,

6 if we're two days and people want to stay over a

7 third, one of our larger manufacturing plants is

8 45 minutes north of here that has almost all those

9 products, you know, that maybe just for a two-hour

10 tour, ask your questions, look at them, see them,

11 touch them, see the site again. I'm not trying to

12 take away from these guys. They got better plants

13 than even ours that I'm aware of, that I've been

14 to but if may be beneficial if -- and all my

15 compadres from competition, no problem. I mean we

16 could just, you know, just see a plant.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: So in January, we can

18 explore. I think that a lot of folks would

19 appreciate a site visit.

20 MR. POWERS: This is a plant of 400

21 people and $107 million in revenue. It's a large

22 plant and it fabricates, welds machines. You
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1 know, there's a 120 machine tools. It would show

2 you a lot, you know, for what it's worth.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So we've

4 established -- I'm going to be repetitive.

5 MR. POWERS: Now it doesn't have to be

6 the January meeting. Whatever you all feel

7 comfortable with.

8 MR. FERNSTROM: I was going to say as

9 we're planning this out, maybe we ought to select

10 a day for this opportunity.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Well, so just to

12 confirm, we have January 30-31 now inked on the

13 books, March 4-5 are inked on the books. We've

14 now selected March 26-27 as the follow-on meeting

15 to maintain the momentum. Would you like to do

16 this on the following Friday or the preceding

17 Tuesday? What would be most convenient for you?

18 MR. POWERS: Well, to be safe, the bad

19 weather is January-February. No sense fighting

20 the snow or not knowing whether it will or not,

21 but if you want to do it at the second meeting

22 actually, which is our third meeting, maybe the
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1 March 3rd or the March 6th might be better weather

2 wise.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

4 (Inaudible)

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. This would be a

6 plant tour, a site visit.

7 MR. POWERS: March -- it's right on the

8 fringe of it, the tail end, yeah, but you just

9 don't know. It could be either one. Whatever you

10 all think. I mean here's my point. I'm open to

11 all three. I'm just saying, you know, would we be

12 far enough along to be -- the purpose would be to

13 see equipment and see what's going on and see the

14 kinds, not what we're doing specifically but see

15 the stuff. Would that be beneficial?

16 MR. ADIN: I suspect that would be

17 beneficial at any time, personally, but I'm not

18 sure it matters. I don't know if other people --

19 MR. BROOKMAN: So would it be more

20 convenient -- I'm thinking that if you're going to

21 do it on the following -- contiguous to the 4th,

22 5th, that the 6th might be better because then
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1 those folks flying in from the West Coast, they

2 could do a half-day or three-quarters of a day on

3 Thursday and get out of here and go home.

4 MR. POWERS: And all I recommend, the

5 BWI Airport is 45 minutes from there, so if you're

6 flying out, maybe you want to flying out of there

7 instead of going way down to Dulles. The city is

8 called Taneytown, Maryland. It's about 9 miles

9 south of Gettysburg. It's right near the fringe

10 of the Maryland-Pennsylvania border, but

11 literally, I'd say an hour from here --

12 MR. BROOKMAN: There are direct flights

13 on Southwest out of Oakland.

14 MR. POWERS: Out of BWI?

15 MR. BROOKMAN: To BWI.

16 MR. POWERS: BWI is a huge Southwest

17 Airline hub --

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So --

19 MR. HANDZEL: Doug, excuse me one

20 second?

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.

22 MR. HANDZEL: I'm just going to point
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1 out again the Chicago opportunity --

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Oh, yeah.

3 MR. HANDZEL: -- to do all the things

4 that he's talking about plus circulators.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

6 MR. HANDZEL: So, you know, I mean,

7 Lucas, could we assign Lucas to look at -- can we

8 have a -- you know, just because it's going to

9 short the trip for the West Coast people, so I

10 don't want to derail --

11 MR. BROOKMAN: No, no. I think it's a

12 great idea.

13 MR. HANDZEL: I just don't want to

14 dismiss it either.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: I think it's a great

16 idea, maybe do both --

17 MR. HANDZEL: Yeah.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Maybe have a later one.

19 The only thing is the DOE says their ability to --

20 MR. HANDZEL: Well, no, that's why I'm

21 saying just -- somebody from DOE has to come back

22 and say --
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: So here's the main thing.

2 I just want to make sure you've got, in ink, on

3 your calendars March 4-5, and March 26-27,

4 location to be determined. And then maybe we look

5 at a site visit on March 6th. And then we'll see,

6 Mark, how --

7 MR. HANDZEL: That's fine.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah, because -- no, I

9 think everybody would like to see that.

10 MR. POWERS: I'm perfectly happy doing

11 Chicago. I don't want to -- even if we want to go

12 down South or somewhere.

13 MR. ECKMAN: Or go to Georgia. The

14 weather's better --

15 MR. FERNSTROM: So this is Gary. I'd

16 just like to observe about the circulator thing.

17 We keep seeming to go around and around about it.

18 MR. ADIN: I can't believe we made it

19 this long without that joke coming out.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, and thanks.

21 Looking to April now. April 20th is Easter and if

22 we did the week after Easter, that would be short
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1 on -- maybe we should try for the final week of

2 April into the first week of May if those dates --

3 MR. DOE: No.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah, it would be 28, 29,

5 30, May 1, 2. It would be like 29, 30 would be

6 the preferred dates.

7 MR. DOE: I can't.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes?

9 MR. DOE: No.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: I see a few thumbs up.

11 MR. DOE: No.

12 (Off mic)

13 MR. BROOKMAN: ACEEE?

14 MR. DOE: There are some ICC hearings

15 that week as well.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: You're bad? Does it work

17 later in the week? Later in the week is also bad?

18 MR. DOE: Yeah.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Shall we look at

20 the week --

21 MR. DOE: Doug, I was going to say why

22 not like -- I know it's -- why not like the 23rd,
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1 24th or 24th --

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. That's what I was

3 about to suggest. Look at the week immediately

4 following Easter, 23-24, or 22-23 of April.

5 MR. DOE: (Off mic)

6 MR. BROOKMAN: You can?

7 MR. DOE: No.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: You're stuck that week?

9 MR. DOE: (Off mic)

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. If we're meeting,

11 as we have scheduled now in ink on your calendar,

12 March 26-27, I think we could go perhaps to the

13 first week of May, which is May 5 through 9. How

14 does that look for folks? If we say May 6-7, say?

15 No?

16 (Off mic)

17 MS. WALTNER: I'm on vacation the first

18 two weeks of May and half of the week of April, so

19 I'm going to make things difficult here. I might

20 just have to find an alternative.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Once again, we may --

22 we're going to get to the point where you may need
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1 to send an alternate. How many can't make it May

2 6-7? Four, that's a lot. How many can't make it

3 April 29-30? Two. April 29-30 is looking

4 promising.

5 MR. POTTS: Is May 7 being considered?

6 MR. DOE: What happened to 23-24?

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Two were missing for

8 April 29-30. May 7 and 8, how many would be

9 missing? We know Meg's missing. Just two?

10 MS. WALTNER: Sorry, what date?

11 MR. BROOKMAN: May 7 and 8. Okay. So

12 there are more of us in there. So I'm going to

13 suggest check your calendar one more time. April

14 29-30 which gives us a full month after our March

15 26-27 date. Okay.

16 MR. DOE: Can I propose April 30 to May

17 1st, Wednesday-Thursday instead or was there a

18 conflict?

19 MR. BROOKMAN: How does April 30-May 1

20 work? How many have a conflict there? Two. And

21 we had three. Does it make any difference whether

22 it's 29-30 or 30 and May 1st?
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1 MR. HUBER: So I can be here the 29th

2 and 30th. I would just have to be a few hours

3 late because of some child care issues with my

4 wife's work schedule, things like that.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

6 MR. HUBER: If that's acceptable to the

7 group, I could do that.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: I think we're going to

9 have to accept that sort of thing as we go along.

10 Okay. So now take another look at your calendars.

11 April 29-30 is the suggested date and I'm about to

12 confirm it. Okay. April 29-30. You all are

13 doing really well. We're almost there.

14 So looking at May, that would be --

15 MR. DOE: (Inaudible) 26th of

16 (inaudible).

17 MR. BROOKMAN: The 26th or 27th or 28th,

18 in there? I would have a preference that we do

19 this at least mid-week to late-week if that's

20 possible, like 28-29? No? Earlier in the week is

21 better or - - yeah? Like --

22 MR. DOE: Which (inaudible) are you on?
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: I'm looking May 26

2 through

3 30 --

4 MR. HUBER: I'm out anything from the

5 19th through the 30th.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: 19th through the 30th,

7 okay. How many cannot -- let's just choose a few

8 dates. May 27 and 28, how many cannot make that?

9 Four.

10 MR. ADIN: I have actually kind of an

11 unusual potential issue in May.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: do you wish to reveal --

13 tell the -- for the record.

14 MR. ADIN: So my wife is due to give

15 birth on May 20th, so --

16 (Applause)

17 MR. ADIN: Thank you. Thank you.

18 MR. ROSENSTOCK: 28th or 27th?

19 MR. BROOKMAN: And this is your first

20 child.

21 MR. ADIN: I'm not going to suggest that

22 during this context. Yeah, but our first one, so
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1 --

2 MR. BROOKMAN: And so it'll probably be

3 a little bit late. Just kidding.

4 MR. ADIN: But I'll be out for a couple

5 of weeks. I just don't know when it will be.

6 MS. KOHL: (Inaudible) a week early.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: A week early.

8 (Off mic)

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Betsy -- you're so

10 precocious, Betsy.

11 What should we do about May? Should we

12 move to the first week in June, because we're

13 meeting April 29-30 which is really the first week

14 of May as well.

15 MR. ADIN: So since my issue is

16 variable, don't decide on that basis. If I can't

17 be here because of that, John will be most likely.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: I'm thinking we're going

19 to be down to the brass tacks.

20 MR. POWERS: What concerns me is if we

21 skip May and we go to June and we're supposed to

22 put this in in July, we're going to be down to the
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1 wire and then we'll be --

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Al, you can't be here 19

3 through 31 or something, right?

4 MR. HUBER: I won't be able to get on a

5 plane. I'll probably (inaudible).

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. What's better for

7 you collectively, the third week of May or the

8 fourth week of May, like the 20th through 23rd or

9 27th through 30? I'm going to start with the

10 third week first. How many is it better to do the

11 third week? Not.

12 MR. ROSENSTOCK: You talking May 3rd

13 versus fourth week?

14 MS. KOHL: May 19th week versus May

15 26th.

16 MR. ECKMAN: You talking just feasible

17 or preferred over the fourth week?

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Right exactly. That's

19 what I'm talking, third week preferred over the

20 fourth week. How many would prefer the third week

21 over the fourth week? Just two. So the rest of

22 you, show of hands, prefer the fourth week? By a
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1 slim margin. No matter. Okay. We're going to the

2 fourth week, May 27-28. How many are going to

3 miss that? Two there.

4 How many are going to miss 28 and 29?

5 Just one.

6 How many are going to miss 29 and 30?

7 One.

8 So it seems like 28-29 is our best

9 candidate. I'm sorry, Robert.

10 MR. DOE: Okay.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, 28-29 of May, those

12 are the new dates.

13 Now June -- this is going better than it

14 ever does, by the way. We're doing really, really

15 well here.

16 MR. HANDZEL: I've got another HI

17 meeting in June.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: When would that be?

19 MR. HANDZEL: (Inaudible) -- third week

20 of June.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Does it benefit us --

22 well, you're going to have plenty of product from
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1 us for you to consider if that's necessary. Do

2 you want to try the last full week of June which

3 would be June 23 through 28? Try --

4 MR. HANDZEL: The 28th, I have technical

5 meetings that week, starts on the 24th.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: The HI meeting?

7 MR. HANDZEL: The Hydraulic Institute's,

8 the 25th through the 27th. There's an ASRAC

9 meeting that morning. (Inaudible).

10 MR. BROOKMAN: I was wondering -- it

11 would blow an entire week for the industry

12 members, the HI members. Could we try on this one

13 occasion meeting on the Monday-Tuesday and then

14 you proceed to the HI meeting on Wednesday,

15 Thursday and Friday?

16 MR. POWERS: Where is it?

17 MR. CASE: The meeting starts on the

18 25th. I'll have meetings on the 24th --

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So let's go then

20 to -- this is the reason I printed off this

21 supplemental page which begins July.

22 MR. DOE: What -- after the week of --
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1 15th of June?

2 MR. BROOKMAN: The week of what?

3 MR. DOE: 16th (off mic) -- short

4 duration, attending two meetings but we did it

5 before, so --

6 MR. BROOKMAN: You want to try June 16,

7 that week? I mean it would really -- let's try

8 that, shall we? How many are going to be

9 unavailable during that week of June 16 through

10 20? It's looking promising. Okay, so let's -- you

11 want to try -- let's try for the 17-18. How many

12 people can't make it June 17-18? Tom, you can't.

13 Okay. Anybody else?

14 MR. DOE: Steve, when did you say ASRAC

15 was?

16 MR. ROSENSTOCK: June 18-19 or --

17 (Crosstalk/off mic)

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Tom, you've got ACEEE or

19 something?

20 MR. ECKMAN: No, I've got other

21 (inaudible) --

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Does 18-29 work
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1 better for you?

2 MR. ECKMAN: Yeah, 18-19 or 19-20.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Shall we say 18-19, June

4 18-19? Okay. June 18-19. Well, that's pretty

5 impressive that we've been able to do that. Okay.

6 So, do you think we should schedule -- we should

7 probably schedule one date in July and hope we

8 don't need it, right? So this calendar, the

9 supplemental calendar, the one that's not pretty,

10 is laid out the same way. If we meet June 18-19 -

11 -

12 MR. ROSENSTOCK: July 15th?

13 MR. BROOKMAN: July 16-17?

14 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Our last day.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: July 16-17?

16 MR. ROSENSTOCK: 15th, that's our

17 deadline.

18 (Crosstalk/off mic)

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Can't be there? Well,

20 what are you saying, Betsy?

21 MS. KOHL: (Off mic) the 15th of (off

22 mic).
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: It is.

2 MS. KOHL: So it would be the (off mic)

3 --

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. So let's try for

5 the week prior. How does July 8 and 9 look?

6 (Crosstalk/off mic)

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Not good?

8 (Off mic)

9 MR. BROOKMAN: We could move the end

10 date and try and move -- you want to try July 22-

11 23 hoping that we don't need it or hoping that

12 ASRAC has looked at our work product and they say

13 this looks great, but what about this, what about

14 this, what about this?

15 MR. DOE: How about the 23rd-24th?

16 MR. BROOKMAN: 23rd-24th, yes? July 23-

17 24 as our final meeting, maybe not necessary and

18 also a celebration at that point?

19 MS. DOE: (Inaudible) --

20 (Off record discussion)

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. I'm going to

22 restate what we've got. Please make sure you've
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1 got these dates accordingly. January 30 and 31

2 here in the Forrestal Building; March 4th and 5th,

3 probably here and maybe with a site visit to

4 Taneytown in Maryland on the 6th; March 26, 27,

5 location to be determined, the default being the

6 Forrestal Building and it's probably where we're

7 going to be because all the capabilities are here;

8 April 29-30, here or wherever we determine. If we

9 decide it's possible to go to Chicago, take Mark

10 up on his offer or someone else, then we'll

11 entertain that beginning perhaps at the January

12 meeting. The other dates are May 28-29, June 18-

13 19, and finally, July 23-24. Okay? We did really

14 good with this. This is good.

15 So I guess that's all the business that

16 I thought we needed to conclude in this session.

17 I want to provide an opportunity for anybody that

18 wishes to to make brief concluding remarks, for

19 example, evaluating how we did, thoughts about

20 what you would think about looking ahead.

21 Charlie.

22 MR. CAPPELLINO: Charlie Cappellino,
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1 ITT. I was just wondering if we could get an

2 example of what will end up being the deliverable,

3 which is the term sheet. I've never seen one, so

4 either a blank form or example from previous

5 rulemaking so we could see what our work product

6 would look like, help us understand where we need

7 to go.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas.

9 MR. ADIN: Yes. I think the term sheet

10 from the transformers rule is in the public

11 docket, but we could direct the group to that.

12 I'm pretty sure it's in there.

13 MR. DOE: (off mic).

14 MR. ADIN: Oh, that's right.

15 MS. DOE: Off mic.

16 MR. ADIN: So no, not for that one.

17 MR. ECKMAN: There is one category.

18 Yeah, you could see that.

19 MR. ADIN: Okay.

20 MR. ECKMAN: (Off mic)

21 MR. ADIN: So enough that it would

22 provide an example of what it looks like, so,
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1 right.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. That's

3 a good idea. It's a very good idea. Other

4 closing remarks here. Mark.

5 MR. HANDZEL: So we have obviously

6 contact information from all the -- a lot of the

7 attendees. Doug, you're not on here. Lucas,

8 you're not on here. So if somehow we could get

9 your contact information just so we know where to

10 find you guys.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah.

12 MR. HANDZEL: I'd just like to comment

13 that I think, you know, whatever pre-work we can

14 do in advance of getting in this room -- you know,

15 obviously, we've requested a lot of data, but I

16 think, you know, we spent a lot of time fumbling

17 around scope these past two days, and we probably

18 could have done a little bit more preparation, had

19 some slides that we could throw up or we weren't

20 trying to pull through old meeting data -- so as

21 much as we could try to do that ahead of time, I

22 think it's going to help us be more productive the
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1 next time.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. that's

3 helpful and it's also been suggested to me that we

4 try to make these meetings definitely more

5 structured, so having those kind of visuals that

6 would guide the discussion I think will help with

7 that. Steve Rosenstock.

8 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI,

9 again. Thanks to DOE and Doug and Jeremiah for

10 all of the legwork that you've done.

11 During the transformers rulemaking, I

12 know that EEI hosted one of the meetings at our

13 facility to talk about -- and, you know, basically

14 we had the AV folks come in and basically checked

15 our system to make sure everything was compatible

16 with their system. Jeremiah, I think you were

17 involved with that one, weren't you? Yeah. So if

18 there's one of the members of the working group or

19 someone else in the audience who would like to

20 host it and, you know, in another city to make it

21 easier for other people to travel, I'm hoping that

22 Jeremiah or someone at DOE could at least email
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1 and say here's what we need in terms of AV and

2 technical for webinar support, can you provide it.

3 And that way, we'd know that the facility would be

4 adaptable to DOE's needs.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve, if we're in a

6 pinch, can you offer a host -- be a host for us?

7 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Well, it's still in DC.

8 It really doesn't help the people from out of town

9 but I'd have to --

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah, but sometimes we

11 can't even get the meeting rooms here.

12 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Right. I'd have to

13 check. Our meeting rooms are very -- I have to

14 check the days. I would say maybe. I have to

15 check the dates with our meeting folks.

16 MR. ADIN: Let me offer -- we're going

17 to take that as an ask on our side to look at the

18 feasibility of doing one of these meetings outside

19 DOE and we'll get back to the group on what --

20 MR. ROSENSTOCK: This is Steve

21 Rosenstock. You have done it but in the city, it's

22 just a matter of -- I'm hoping you might be able
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1 to do it out of town.

2 MR. ADIN: Understood and we'll look at

3 the feasibility of doing that.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Other -- yes, Meg.

5 MS. WALTNER: Just a quick add-on to

6 Mark's points. I very much agree in terms of

7 having as much as we can beforehand would be

8 useful and specifically, I think circulating some

9 sort of an agenda in advance of the next meeting

10 that folks could comment on and prepare based on

11 that agenda, and having a more structured agenda I

12 think would be helpful.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: I will take the

14 initiative to create an agenda for the next time.

15 I'll consult with Lucas and Betsy and we'll make

16 sure an agenda is sent in advance.

17 MS. WALTNER: And then secondly, I just

18 wanted to thank everyone for their time and effort

19 so far in this process. You know, I think we're

20 really excited about the potential here and

21 looking forward to the next 5, 6, 7 months of

22 working together. So I just wanted to thank
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1 everyone.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Yes, Mark, a

3 follow-on, then to Gary.

4 MR. HANDZEL: Sorry. Just a quick kind

5 of another question. So occasionally, like I

6 mentioned, there's an article that defines the

7 Lots and things like that, so if we run across

8 information that we might be helpful to the group,

9 can we feel free to share or do we need to send it

10 to Lucas for distribution? How do you want to

11 handle that kind of stuff?

12 MR. ADIN: That's a good question. I'm

13 glad you asked that because that's something we

14 discussed at lunch, and I meant to address and it

15 slipped my mind. But the general answer is yes.

16 To the extent that any member of the group has

17 something they believe will be useful to the group

18 as a whole, we want to be able to share that. I

19 will add that to my list of to dos coming out of

20 the meeting and let the entire group know the best

21 mechanism for doing that, how we're going to share

22 information. I think the SharePoint site is one
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1 of them. Email could be another. We'll figure

2 out the best way to do that so that everyone gets

3 this information.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary.

5 MR. FERNSTROM: So this is Gary. I'd

6 just like to say I think this has been, at least

7 from my perspective, a really tough negotiation.

8 I pushed hard for some things and I really

9 appreciate everybody's cooperative spirit and

10 effort to come to a common understanding of each

11 other's positions. Thank you, all.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Other

13 comments here as we -- yes, Chuck.

14 MR. POWERS: I would recommend also,

15 Lucas, if possible, the schedule, right, instead

16 of just having rough dates and stuff if you could

17 -- I don't know if you guys are used to using

18 Microsoft Schedule or something a little more

19 detail where there's overlap, there's assignments,

20 there's things so that we have the end date and it

21 really lays it out and defines, because the

22 Microsoft Schedules say how long it's going to
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1 take. Now we may not have that between now and

2 next meeting, but the next meeting we start

3 detailing it, what's involved in getting some of

4 these things done and the timeframe. It will help

5 us plot. If we add other products, if we do other

6 stuff, it'll lay that out for us and then it'll

7 say, Wow, we're going to have a problem meeting in

8 July because of this, so what do we have to

9 squeeze here and move here and -- just for what

10 it's worth. I don't know --

11 MR. ADIN: Essentially, a project

12 management kind of --

13 MR. POWERS: Right, a project management

14 tool of some sort. Now Microsoft Schedule is one

15 of the ones that I'm familiar with because we use

16 it a lot but there's other ones.

17 MR. ADIN: We can look at what tool we

18 could use.

19 MR. DOE: Microsoft Project?

20 MR. POWERS: Yeah, Microsoft Project.

21 The other thing is, as a group, that concerns me -

22 - I think it's great, but first of all, I was very
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1 pleased. This is the first one I've officially

2 attended with the rest. I really do think it's

3 great, the different views and the different

4 perspectives that everybody's brought up. It is

5 very important.

6 Another thing we have to keep in

7 context, there are other manufacturers out there

8 that, you know, we have to be aware of that we

9 don't mess up. So decisions we may feel

10 comfortable with, I'd even have to be careful as a

11 manufacturer, and we're a big guy, too, that we

12 don't -- you know, it's our objective as an HI

13 member that we don't -- you know, we look at that.

14 So we get into these evaluations; what is it going

15 to do some of these other guys, the costs

16 involved, because we've got to be careful because,

17 you know, I'll have to go to sleep at night and

18 say, "Man, I just closed four plants down because

19 of this." And I think we all have the same kind

20 of concerns and we have to be careful.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

22 MR. ADIN: So one point of information
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1 that I don't think we really got into in detail at

2 all -- I'm not sure if we even mentioned it -- but

3 to the extent any of the regulations will affect

4 small businesses directly, there is a specialized

5 analysis that we have to do to evaluate the direct

6 impacts on those, and it's subject to review by

7 the Small Business Administration, and there's a

8 whole other set of things that we need to look at

9 purely on that basis. So I just wanted to make

10 sure it's understood that, in fact, by law and as

11 a matter of procedure, we will have to look at

12 those things in detail.

13 MR. POWERS: And as a second spin to

14 that, some of the bigger guys -- or we have to be

15 careful of some of the manufacturers offshore will

16 look at this opportunity, because they'll say,

17 Okay, now I can -- if I met their standard, where

18 are we going to go to get our costs down? We're

19 going to go offshore. They're already offshore.

20 They can easily jump their costs and come and we

21 have to be careful how does that blend with the

22 Buy American Act and how does that mess this up,
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1 because if you put the confines in text, you may

2 have to get in point that the only guys that can

3 do this stuff might be offshore. I'm going

4 farfetched but there could be those impacts if

5 we're not careful.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Al, do you wish to

7 comment? No? Okay. Final comments before I turn

8 it back -- so I'll turn it back to Lucas to make -

9 - our host and Betsy, concluding remarks.

10 MR. ADIN: I don't think I really have

11 anything specific to add, just to thank everyone

12 for their participation. I understand it took us

13 a while to get to this ultimate product and

14 understanding that these are extremely complex

15 issues, and it was a little messy coming into it

16 yesterday. I accept some amount of responsibility

17 for that. I don't think we were completely

18 prepared to dive in quite so early, but I think we

19 righted the ship a little bit by the end of the

20 day today and that's a good thing, and it's

21 instructive for our future meetings. It occurred

22 to me that an agenda will be useful, all those
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1 things are things that we intend to do in advance

2 of the next meeting, so your concerns are well

3 taken. I think that's all I have.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: So safe travels to

5 everyone. I look forward to seeing you on January

6 30-31 here and thanks to everyone that joined us

7 via the web. Safe travels.

8 (Whereupon, the meeting was adjourned

9 at approximately 3:02 p.m.)

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1 CERTIFICATE OF TRANSCRIBER 

2 I, LUCY TURNBULL, do hereby certify that 

3 this transcript was prepared from audio to the 

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1 CERTIFICATE OF TRANSCRIBER

2 I, DEBORAH ARBOGAST, do hereby certify that

3 this transcript was prepared from audio to the

4 best of my ability.

5 I am neither counsel for, nor party to this

6 action nor am I interested in the outcome of this

7 action.

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1 CCERTIFICATE OF COURT REPORTER

2 I, NATALIA THOMAS, the Court Reporter before

3 whom the foregoing proceeding was taken, do hereby

4 certify that the proceeding was recorded by me;

5 that the proceeding was thereafter reduced to

6 typewriting under my direction; that said

7 transcript is a true and accurate record of the

8 proceeding; that I am neither related to nor

9 employed by any of the parties to this proceeding;

10 and, further, that I have no financial interest in

11 this proceeding.

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 NATALIA THOMAS

19 Digital Court Reporter

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18 328:12

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75:8,10 77:22

86:3,10 88:6,14

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121:18 122:21

135:21 141:14

159:3 161:20

166:17

173:13,21 174:1

188:5 197:18

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228:17 236:12

242:19 243:9

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332:22 334:18

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absolutely 34:16

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84:14 159:9

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abstentions

282:12

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50:13,14,15

accept 98:14,16

245:14 274:5,7

288:21 293:13

300:15 319:9

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acceptance 119:18

accepted 274:6

300:6 301:6

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280:17 282:4

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119:7 195:13

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45:14

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325:18

achievable 127:22

achieve 91:14

111:2 150:12

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acronyms 52:15

across 162:18

175:1 208:16

334:7

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184:16 341:6,7

342:6,7

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260:22

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84:21 85:8

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151:17 152:2

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174:21 181:15

187:20 198:4,9

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221:19 224:14

230:5 244:8

269:17 270:1

273:11 284:18

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151:2,3 159:18

180:22 186:1

202:22 215:4

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271:15

addressing 36:18

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Adin 2:3 3:17 5:22

12:17 14:9,13

15:11
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18:1,12,16,22

19:22 20:11,22

21:16 22:7

23:3,8 29:16

30:14 31:20,22

34:8 36:14

37:3,10 42:4

43:8 44:6

45:9,11 49:16,22

50:12 51:1 53:9

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57:1,7,18 58:2

60:5,19,22 70:21

71:10 72:6 73:22

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78:16,18,21

79:1,4 80:4,9,21

81:2,5,8,12,19

82:7,11

83:7,10,16,20

84:2,4,10,14,17

86:19,22

87:13,17

89:2,5,8,13

90:11,14 92:13

96:14,21

100:4,12 101:11

102:1,4,9,13

115:7,9 116:3

117:7,10,12,17

126:21 127:2,5,7

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140:22 141:4,9

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144:13 146:20

155:1,10,15

156:20 159:17

161:6 162:10

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171:7,12

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174:4,9 175:17

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178:2,6 181:18

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240:13 279:15

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330:14 333:9,16

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217:11 256:22

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270:7 287:4,7

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123:15,19 124:9

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147:5 230:18

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275:10 277:10

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264:19

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124:20 279:14

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216:4 235:1

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328:20 330:21

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59:16 60:15 61:5

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110:11 123:6

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128:16,18

138:20 140:10

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73:10 74:20

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226:17 230:19

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264:14 268:22

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277:14 278:20

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171:1 196:19

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241:11 242:11

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180:11 292:8

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159:6 271:18

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38:8 44:22 74:7

111:4 131:9

152:4 159:18

162:13 165:22

184:5 225:22

228:10 267:21

320:4 339:11
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anyway 16:9 26:8

49:17 64:1 83:3

98:3 131:1

149:18 152:18

179:1 230:10

280:2 284:10

anywhere 69:16

195:2 276:7

apart 219:2

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apparently 121:18

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apples 105:5

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122:10 125:4

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315:21 316:2

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319:11,12

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299:1 324:8

325:14 327:12

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285:8

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138:10,16

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303:14
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attendance

294:10,13,20

attended 337:2

attendees 330:7

attending 325:4

attitude 287:4

attorney 185:12

attorneys 185:11

audience 331:19

audio 341:3 342:3

August 213:1,2

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authority 37:9

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176:1,13 211:17

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120:11 124:10

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154:3,7 157:3

161:12,17

166:17 176:2,5

177:13 211:3

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238:3 245:12,20

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280:7 310:13

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back-and-forth

299:2

background 162:6

bad 212:15 271:7

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ball 277:12,21

ballot 90:5,10

band 140:15,16,21

141:6

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Barbour 2:4 12:16

121:6,10,14,17

122:1,4,19,21

125:2,6,10,15,20

126:3 155:22

156:12 157:20

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194:14 210:10

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270:18,19,20,21

271:8,11,14

272:8 273:21

278:10 280:17

282:5 286:18

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102:5 172:6

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191:1 196:16

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221:7 321:16

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beforehand 333:7

begin 95:10,14

124:14 205:20

beginning 6:11

134:11 141:18

207:7 234:14

288:6 298:22

300:1 302:3
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begins 324:21

begun 294:5

behalf 267:8

behind 77:8

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24:1,3,8 35:20

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192:16 224:8

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benefits 149:4,6,7

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221:15 227:18

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blend 338:21

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287:10,11

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267:19,22 268:1

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briefly 60:6

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bring 14:14

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276:3

broad 27:1 30:15

162:15 163:4
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290:16

broader 8:14

23:11 36:4 49:11

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229:22 246:17

broadest 16:20

broadly 116:15

138:2

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13:18,21

14:12,16 15:7

17:21 18:14,20

19:11 22:9 23:16

25:11 26:20 28:9

29:14 32:2 34:6

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49:5,21 50:10,21

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60:15 61:8,18,20

62:13 64:8,21

66:10 67:10

68:1,7 69:10,20

70:2,18 71:9,12

72:2,8 73:21

74:9 75:16 76:16

77:3,13,19

78:15,17,20,22

79:5,15,17 81:11

82:10 85:13 86:6

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90:18,22 91:6

92:12,14 95:2,21

97:4,11

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105:1,8,15,20

106:20 108:22

109:6,11 110:2,7

112:10 114:22

115:8,17 116:1

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118:6,14

119:9,15

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121:9,13,15,19

122:3,13,17,20

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126:5 127:3,6,9

128:2,10,14

130:5,17,20

131:5 133:7,9,16

134:4 135:3,7

136:1,21

137:13,19

138:19 139:1

140:8 141:10

142:7 143:3,16

144:1,21 145:4

146:14,18

147:10

148:5,7,11

149:12,22 150:5

151:16 152:20

154:9,15,22

155:20

156:10,13

157:6,19 159:14

160:3 162:8

163:7,19 165:17

166:20 167:6

172:8,12 173:5

174:18 177:10

178:10 179:3,19

180:2 181:16

183:4,6,13

186:16 188:11

189:4 190:10

191:22 193:5,17

194:11,17

195:4,9

196:4,11,14

200:7 201:8

202:19 204:18

206:4,16,22

207:16

208:12,17 210:9

213:21 214:16

215:16 216:19

217:8,14 218:12

219:17

220:4,9,12,17

221:4,14,21

222:6,9,14

223:8,22

224:11,16

225:17 227:9,15

228:15

229:15,18

230:11 231:5

232:1,22

233:9,11

235:13,21

236:15 237:13

238:20

239:3,10,14

240:1 241:22

242:8 243:21

244:12,14 245:4

246:18,22

247:6,16 248:18

249:5,13,20

250:5

251:1,5,10,13,16

252:9,15,22

253:3,9,13,19

256:9 258:1,19

259:22

260:12,19

262:14 263:3,18

264:1,7,11,20

265:5,11,17,19

266:4,7,11,13

267:6,14

268:3,17 269:8

270:10,13

271:13,20

272:15

273:2,6,19

274:4,15

276:9,12 278:4,6

279:8

280:3,8,15,20

281:2,6,8

282:2,11,18,22

283:7,11 284:21

286:11,17

287:22 288:15

289:16 290:21

291:3,16

293:4,20

295:12,21

296:8,17,20

297:10,16,18

298:2,4 299:6,12

300:3,21 301:8

302:12,16

303:7,11,19

304:2,6,9

305:8,11,14,17

306:5,15

307:1,5,14,17

308:11,18,22

309:5,9,11,15,18

310:17 311:3,11

312:3,5,19

313:12,15,18,21

314:2,5,11,15,18

315:1,8,20

316:4,8,10,13,16

,19

317:2,6,8,10,21

318:7,11,19

319:5,8,17

320:1,6,12,19

321:2,7,9,18
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323:11,18,21

324:6,10,19

325:2,6,18,22

326:3,13,15,19

327:1,4,7,9,16,2

1 329:8 330:2,11

331:2 332:5,10

333:4,13 334:2

335:4,12 337:21

339:6 340:4

brought 102:22

110:11 150:3

172:16 213:15

248:8 251:4

275:18 337:4

Btu 55:19

BTUs 141:19,20

259:9

bucks 157:10

budget 310:2

building 1:10

171:18 214:18

302:21 328:2,6

buildings 85:2

174:22 175:12

193:13

built 62:10 145:20

bulk 26:10

bunch 55:13

161:22 274:21

business 26:22

75:7 93:1

191:12,21

328:15 338:7

businesses 338:4

busy 303:14

buy 107:19 114:1

157:9 178:15

338:22

BWI

313:5,14,15,16

C

cake 95:1

calculating 35:4

calendar 240:20

302:14 304:19

317:11 318:13

326:8,9

calendars 303:1

315:3 319:10

calibrated 97:9

California 10:20

12:2,3,5 19:13

28:11,18 48:12

51:16 62:1 91:9

148:12 171:15

177:4 178:12

182:3 185:11,19

187:14 188:18

189:9,21 194:5

200:9,11 201:2

204:9 231:10

249:7 263:20

272:11 279:21

285:1

Callie 2:15 12:22

candidate 189:1

211:4,20 212:8

323:9

capabilities 328:7

capability 148:19

208:15

capacity 4:9 10:11

15:8 52:2 64:16

82:2 141:17

Capital 1:15

Cappellino 2:6

12:12 26:21

27:14 46:21

92:15 94:6,12,15

249:21 253:4,11

328:22

captured 156:16

captures 79:22

101:8

care 36:18 246:11

319:3

careful 167:13

262:21 263:4

290:22 308:9

337:10,16,20

338:15,21 339:5

carefully 19:16

carrying 284:12

case 2:6 12:14 27:8

37:19 38:1 39:7

47:17

62:15,16,22

63:19 64:10

65:1,22 66:17

77:4 89:16

90:12,15,21

91:2,20 97:14

98:4,10,15

99:1,12,14

105:22 106:3,15

108:4 114:9

173:20 187:2

192:12 205:21

228:16 245:13

248:2 278:18

287:16 295:4

296:5 324:17

cases 27:20 39:1

44:2 93:2 147:22

148:4 252:12

casing 261:11

casings 261:21

casting 300:21

categorically

148:20 161:8

categories

41:15,18 59:20

79:22 162:15

164:20 167:5

171:22 176:6

181:22 187:1

242:17 245:10

248:6,13 249:7

258:4 269:3

272:3 291:13

category 62:8

65:13 99:11

107:7 137:6

172:13,14

175:18 176:7

235:7,15 254:4

268:11 271:8

329:17

caucus 283:1

291:20

caucuses 301:13

cause 29:3,13 75:6

caution 270:7

278:12 280:4

cautious 58:15

caveat 204:10

CCERTIFICATE

343:1

celebration 327:18

Celsius 252:20

253:1,2 254:6

center 38:21

centerpiece 215:18

centimeters

261:20

centrifugal 86:14
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cert 153:15

certain 8:12 26:16

34:2 39:10 41:18

71:19 76:21

81:15 86:16,17

88:13 107:19

111:1,2 152:12

180:20 189:6

204:3 242:21

277:16 278:12

297:5

certainly 18:3

51:12 73:4 78:18

107:6 113:5

144:17 149:6

152:19 153:8

156:14 159:5

164:15 192:2

200:1 229:22

237:19 245:19

certainty 24:2

CERTIFICATE

341:1 342:1

certification

104:21

certified 103:9

106:11 111:3

certify 341:2 342:2

343:4

cetera 158:6 181:1

203:18

210:13,18

C-face 59:2

challenge 299:19

challenges 92:16

challenging

93:3,10 101:4

chance 9:22

116:10 207:21

209:1 248:22

291:19 303:1

change 7:11,13

24:14 26:9 56:14

63:4 78:19

218:20 219:11

280:12 282:15

285:20

changed 69:15

107:5 247:7

changes 14:20

15:1,5 46:3

206:1 296:6

changing 66:6

304:16

channels 92:1

Chapter 152:10

characteristics

42:8 163:8

190:21

191:2,9,16

288:20

characterization

263:2

characterize 176:5

207:4 221:16

241:2 262:22

characterized

119:3 229:1

263:4

characterizing

178:8

Charles 19:14

28:15 30:9

106:11

Charlie 2:6 12:12

25:12,16

26:20,21

46:19,21 90:7

92:14,15 94:7

102:22 103:6

249:20 252:15

253:4 328:21,22

chart 218:7 224:13

238:16,21 239:5

247:7,19 251:20

281:9

cheaper 28:6

check 144:16

183:19 303:1

318:13

332:13,14,15

checked 123:16,18

331:14

chemical 248:11

Chicago 314:1

315:11 328:9

child 319:3 320:20

chillers 86:14

chime 67:3

choice 28:20 47:15

65:17

choices 36:10

206:2

choose 29:4 77:15

160:14 202:16

219:5 320:7

chorus 300:20

chose 288:21

chosen 52:4 92:18

111:18

chuck 2:15 11:17

17:21,22 25:11

44:8 75:17

102:17 109:15

110:2 111:22

149:22 150:5

180:2 212:17

214:18 224:2

226:21 229:6

230:12 231:3

233:6 250:6

251:2 260:19,21

278:11 335:13

Chuck's 234:1

circle 96:2,4,11,12

circles 115:1,21,22

116:2

circling 208:8

circular 120:17

circulate 171:17

circulating 333:8

circulation 171:17

circulator 62:15

63:15 64:19

67:19 99:15

105:3,11 107:1,7

120:20 127:15

157:9 159:7

178:14

186:14,18 188:5

193:9 214:22

215:22 234:17

235:6

259:13,16,20

264:16 315:16

circulators

62:5,21,22 63:18

67:13 68:11,18

77:7,16,22

78:4,7 79:11

104:4 105:17

112:16 114:19

118:17,19

119:21 122:6

124:2 125:7

128:1 130:16

131:10,11,15,20

132:7 139:19

140:1 147:17
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159:8 162:21

186:10 187:11

192:10,16

193:12 194:9

222:10 225:20

226:3 237:22

263:22 264:6

265:10,14 272:4

285:5 287:6,8

314:4

city 313:7 331:20

332:21

clarification 26:12

44:11 83:12

145:22 231:15

235:3 237:17

248:2 281:22

294:15 298:8

300:4

clarified 297:4,8

clarifies 296:2

clarify 18:13 25:17

35:12,19 39:6

46:12 70:22

84:11 96:14 97:6

100:4 109:4

110:10 173:15

190:18 226:7

235:11 237:14

251:1 252:5

253:14 255:10

262:6 291:9

295:6

clarifying 67:22

121:20 134:14

144:4 247:13

258:20

clarity 3:19 4:15

6:3 133:12

229:19 301:19

Clark 13:9

class 80:3 81:22

166:10 191:8

classes 7:16 8:12

16:16 42:6,11

43:21 74:16

82:6,13,22 98:17

183:16 221:22

229:14 230:3

232:8,12,18

234:17

classifications

258:12

clause 296:22

297:4 299:20

clean 15:3 19:10

21:14,15,21

22:13 24:7 236:2

254:2 260:5

281:12,14

clear 16:6 30:5

52:6 65:16 66:15

83:12 127:13

131:7 136:16

139:6 140:11

141:1 143:16

201:18 202:4

231:7

232:3,20,22

238:2 252:1

273:14,20 275:9

295:18

clearer 262:5

294:14

clearly 21:17

26:15 155:13

186:5 196:7

224:22

238:11,18

clever 303:12

client's 264:5

close 37:21 61:16

139:7 213:17

214:5 250:15

close-coupled

252:11

closed 337:18

closer 168:6

closing 60:1 330:4

cloth 205:15

Coast 194:10

313:1 314:9

code 242:5 250:17

271:9

codes 227:14

228:1,3,11,14

229:6,13

231:12,19

Cohen 2:7

71:13,22

185:3,9,16

186:12,20

187:16 188:8

189:15 190:3

199:9 200:20

201:18 202:12

203:9,21 204:16

collect 8:11 124:3

147:8 159:21

163:20 166:13

178:1 230:13

collected 163:15

collecting 162:16

166:7 231:2

collection 5:2

collectively 159:12

182:5 322:7

column 18:21

220:10

combination

20:6,7 91:12

107:2 150:16

combinations

162:4

combined 58:20

59:7 108:18

comes 76:4 116:15

143:10 179:22

180:8,17 225:14

228:17 232:19

280:21

comfortable 51:11

143:13 197:13

286:16

288:10,13,18

289:12 293:9

297:6 311:7

337:10

coming 39:16 67:4

78:3 127:11

180:21 198:21

239:20 268:3

286:12 289:6

315:19 334:19

339:15

comment 15:10

28:2 41:7 48:13

51:16 60:4,6

61:19 64:10 72:6

74:11,12 77:11

118:2 173:6,9

174:18 229:6,11

232:6 238:7

242:22 243:14

244:11 245:5

252:7 269:10

330:12 333:10

339:7

comments 5:22

45:1 52:10 54:6

172:10 237:18

240:11 241:1

251:15 258:21
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299:4,14 300:14

335:13 339:7

commerce 30:22

31:20 37:12

commercial 1:6

174:22 175:12

186:22

187:4,5,22

188:20 189:11

191:4,5,14,18

193:13 194:8

244:21

commercial/

industrial

187:13 189:2

190:16

commercial/

residential

187:17

commission

185:12 260:22

commit 239:18

committee 89:10

90:3 95:5 105:12

115:13 124:10

165:12 183:7,9

199:1 205:9,12

223:14 279:10

289:3

commoditized

179:17

commodity 181:14

common 113:20

114:6 138:15,21

335:10

commonality 67:8

commonly 178:19

190:22 243:3

communicate

196:8 231:8

community 237:21

compadres 310:15

companies 27:8

274:21

company 1:15

2:10 12:3 159:5

163:12 236:21

270:2

compared 55:1

72:19 254:10

comparison 87:9

141:22 193:13

compatible 331:15

compete 75:8

competition 34:12

310:15

competitive 33:20

34:3

competitors 33:8

complete 37:20,22

95:7 175:21

288:17 291:22

completed 165:13

178:22

completely 140:9

233:18 238:5

289:10 339:17

complex 339:14

complexity 47:1

129:6 235:11

compliance 69:19

71:3 183:22

complicated 71:21

80:21 99:12

108:21

complicates

167:12

complications

276:13

component 161:9

176:20

components 51:6

65:3 114:2

compressed

307:13

comprise 21:13

comprises 20:7

computer 171:1

conceivable

309:21

conceivably 37:5

272:5

concentrating

268:7

concept 52:16,21

53:6 59:12

66:11,13

conceptions

238:15

concepts 36:4

conceptually 53:1

concern 34:16

42:15,16 59:10

278:7

concerned 32:5,22

38:7 74:13,19

198:1 290:7

concerns 6:3 22:15

75:15 116:13

321:20 336:21

337:20 340:2

concise 37:3

232:20 273:14

concisely 182:10

conclude 328:16

concluding 328:18

339:9

concrete 9:9

197:19 209:5

267:4

concretely 208:22

222:13

concurrence 294:6

condensed 258:4

condition 264:19

conditioners 87:2

conditions 101:5

102:5

conducting 88:17

configuration

163:1,2 190:21

configurations

16:11 21:4 38:12

54:22 55:17

80:15

confines 339:1

confirm 311:12

319:12

conflict 222:18

253:10

305:4,6,12,15

318:18,20

conflicts 303:16

307:11

confuse 52:13

282:1

confused 283:15

291:12

confusing 225:4

confusion 52:19

53:7

Congress 201:22

202:16

connected 27:22
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139:3 140:17

141:2 163:1

250:15

consecutively

304:12

consensus 32:8

158:11 208:10

262:21

279:11,12 282:7

289:20

296:21,22

297:2,12,14

300:5

consequence 29:7

35:5

conservation 2:8

12:7 216:8,15

consider 7:17

16:6,13 19:2,20

20:9

21:3,8,10,13

31:17 34:17

41:17 42:3 47:9

51:18 68:13,18

78:4 81:7 91:4

158:13 196:17

199:15,18,19

207:12 223:14

259:17 266:1

267:2 268:20

269:1 278:14

280:22 283:9

292:20 307:18

324:1

considerable

73:10 296:22

consideration 4:1

22:4 118:4,8

134:13 166:16

200:1 217:3

247:12 274:11

considerations

50:6 170:5

considered 33:9

80:1 211:21

274:1 275:12

286:19,20

308:19 318:5

considering 20:2

22:18 34:16

88:18 101:10

184:20 216:2

220:22 222:3

237:22 292:6

304:10

consistent 11:8

165:1 217:1

245:11 246:18

254:12,14,15

263:9 266:13

294:7 297:15

299:16 300:11

consists 293:22

constant 64:17

constant-speed

269:21

constitute 16:12

constitutes 185:14

constraint 209:13

constraints 147:3

197:3 207:6

209:9

construct 42:3

234:21

constructed 172:2

consult 333:15

consultants 72:12

89:19 123:4

consultation 5:13

Consulting

2:9,15,18 13:12

consume 73:3

consumers 101:13

212:14

consumption 84:6

contact 330:6,9

contemplating

51:4 246:7

context 45:4 51:19

118:21 198:3

272:2 290:16

320:22 337:7

contiguous 312:21

contingent 269:6

continue 134:8

192:15 215:22

229:12 308:16

contractor 85:4

192:20,21

contribute 222:15

control 20:7 32:13

48:2 52:3,20

53:1,8

65:2,16,21 66:22

99:2 100:3,6,9

101:6,9,19 125:6

139:4 152:7

159:1 235:20

controlled 65:9

controls 51:22

56:18 64:13,22

65:11 66:22 70:7

99:17,22 112:21

145:3,18 152:16

163:3 222:22

convenient 87:18

311:17 312:20

convening 136:4

conversation 3:12

5:16 6:2 10:12

49:7,14 136:15

185:19 218:14

233:14 278:15

299:17 301:10

conversations

225:21

converse 204:6

conversion 176:21

convert 156:10

converting 155:5

cooling 171:18

cooperative 335:9

COP 81:16

copies 239:7

copy 165:14

238:20 239:2,3,4

260:21 273:16

302:3,5

corner 244:8

Corporation 2:15

correct 18:6 19:21

20:10,21 27:13

34:9 37:10 56:11

57:6,17,18 59:17

60:7 61:5 70:2

71:1,7 79:15

82:20 90:7 91:20

106:14 122:22

128:20,21

135:14 138:7

153:17 162:12

178:6 184:1

185:3,9 189:15

217:19 229:17

233:5 253:17,20

255:13 275:13

corrected 205:7

correctly 119:3
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cost 35:3 66:4,6

73:11 75:11,22

76:15 78:11,14

82:16 155:6,13

156:2,14

157:8,11,12,13,1

4,17 176:20

177:4,7 179:18

207:20

210:4,13,18

214:7

costs 156:7 181:2

182:6 208:1

209:18 211:9

337:15

338:18,20

Council 2:9,18

11:20 12:7

counsel 6:21

71:6,9 182:12

195:20 273:12

341:5 342:5

Counsel's 12:19

count 231:18

295:5

country 74:21

counts 10:2

couple 22:15 23:6

29:16 68:10

102:18 115:12

126:12 208:7

209:22 218:17

219:9 220:7

221:3 224:14

240:3 301:12

321:4

coupled 37:21

138:13 139:7

174:11 250:16

couples 111:19

coupling 56:14

138:14 252:12

course 4:22 36:6

120:14 174:10

248:13 277:11

Court 343:1,2,19

courtesy 11:3

cover 20:12

21:18,20 33:4

42:11 60:10 90:2

236:18 246:16

258:5,13,15

268:13

coverage 32:20

34:1 53:4,19

60:9 70:14 144:6

155:18 186:1

191:7 201:20

203:7 216:11

230:1,3 232:13

covered 3:10

34:13,14 46:10

55:5 57:4,20

60:9 69:17 71:4

140:2,4 146:19

178:5,7 184:13

185:4,21

186:1,6,11,12,13

187:1 190:1

191:5 194:18

201:22 202:1,8

203:5 217:13

220:13 229:2

231:21 268:9

272:21

covering 19:2 30:1

88:18 161:11

203:15,17,19

covers 27:1 31:1

163:4 256:7

crack 257:21

crazy 212:21

create 3:19

4:16,20 5:3 29:2

204:21 220:18

229:18 253:9

263:10 271:14

333:14

created 49:13

134:10

creates 246:22

credibility 26:17

crisp 3:6

criteria 260:3,7,8

critical 4:22 8:21

30:18,20 70:13

73:12 74:6 88:2

268:2

crossover 194:15

cross-section 27:1

Crosstalk 281:7

302:8

Crosstalk/off

325:17 326:18

327:6

crosswalk

229:8,15

232:2,10

cross-walk 71:15

curious 272:16

current 60:8

118:10 128:4

179:6,7 184:2

300:11

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curve 103:9

169:21

curves 169:20

cushion 197:12

customer 111:8,13

138:6 231:9

customers 110:22

170:1

customized 242:3

cut 202:12,13

cutoff 237:7

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cycle 35:3 73:11

140:19 208:5

211:9 248:10

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D.C 3:6

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232:21

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228:1

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97:15

data 4:19,21 5:1

8:6,12 50:17

61:17 63:19 66:1

67:20 73:18 74:2

77:21 78:9,19

103:21 114:10

116:17,22

122:13,16,18

123:4,8,12,16

124:3,4,5,8,9,17
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135:10

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143:11,13,17

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150:21,22 157:3

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163:9,15

164:1,2,4,8,9,16

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174:20

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176:20 177:4,12

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183:22 205:8,9

212:20

213:2,5,12

218:22 219:1

221:8,10 224:10

225:3 240:18

303:2 304:16,20

318:10,15

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dated 239:12

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dates 4:5,7 61:15

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215:2 218:15

219:5,10

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221:3,6 223:5

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233:15,17

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290:20 293:10

298:19 302:13

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320:8 323:12

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day 3:9 10:15 85:9

110:14 134:11

197:14 266:14

311:10 313:2

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day-and-a-half

269:2

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276:3,4 302:20

304:12 306:4

310:6 330:17

332:14

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326:17

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118:22 149:5

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103:10 120:21

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109:9 185:10

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278:17

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200:2,3

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Descartes 296:13

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162:7 198:6

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293:2

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315:4 328:5

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58:22 105:13

119:19

120:7,13,14

163:16 175:8,13

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200:13 229:8

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83:18

Diagnostics 2:7

diagram 52:17

270:19,20

diameter 167:15

168:21 170:18

180:22

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diesel 22:19 27:22

28:20,22 40:8

42:18 93:16

141:16 172:18

diesels 38:20

difference 22:21

23:2 35:17 91:22

142:4 147:19,22

148:9 177:7,8

188:21 244:9

255:9 287:18

288:2 318:21

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43:19 44:2 47:13

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2 84:2,20 86:4

87:4 91:17

103:3,7,8

107:4,12,21

109:4,13 110:1

111:10 114:11

130:15 151:2

161:12 162:3

169:4 171:11

173:17 176:10

181:11 183:16

185:17 186:2,22

191:13 193:15

201:19 202:21

203:21 204:1

206:4,5 211:5,18

215:10 216:2

231:19 233:3

236:8 238:14

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254:9,13

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301:12 337:3

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84:18 85:10 86:7
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166:12 234:13

317:19

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190:14 194:1

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216:6 217:15

224:18 225:3

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20:8

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31:1,4,17 32:5

34:2,16 36:22

51:4 52:13 56:10

57:4,9,19 59:22

60:9 62:4 64:7

73:12 76:22

77:15 89:19

114:10 116:4

126:8 136:7,12

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185:7

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dollar 17:8 18:10

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26:14 66:5 81:14

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duration 195:14

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79:21 92:3,17

93:5 94:17,22

97:16,21 99:10

106:18 108:15

118:11 121:2

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27:4 33:4 35:4

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27:20

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143:14

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325:13 328:10

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emerged 294:16
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emerges 5:16

298:22

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employed 343:9

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encompass 254:3

encompasses

16:11

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253:15 255:4,19

256:21

257:12,18 258:6

energy 1:5,8 2:16

9:15 13:12 24:20

25:3,9 26:19

28:14 42:10

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101:21

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200:17 204:13

210:13 211:9

216:8,15 224:22

226:16 237:21

245:2 250:11

267:20 269:16

278:20 284:9

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energy-based 55:9

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engine 25:22

28:20,21 29:5

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93:16

engine-driven

25:18 27:5 36:20

engineer 85:5

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engines 17:13

22:19 28:22

36:17 38:16

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entertain 309:22

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187:12

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entirely 68:16

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environmental

29:7

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envisioning

209:10

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equations 82:3

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166:9 229:14

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278:1

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153:13 217:12
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fabricates 310:22

FACILITATOR
Capital Reporting Company

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facilities 74:22

94:3

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316:1 327:17
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finally 5:6 240:14

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FREEMAN
Capital Reporting Company

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French 23:2

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97:19 98:22

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Capital Reporting Company

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84:1,3,8,11

104:18

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home 212:9 280:2
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307:7 313:3

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182:21

183:15,20

204:13 209:21

212:1,11 277:3

levels 82:12 91:15

142:13 150:12

164:22

208:10,16

209:19

211:4,5,18,20

212:4,8 235:10

lies 285:14

lieu 29:5

life 35:3 73:11

211:8

life-cycle 155:12

157:21 207:20

209:18 210:4,12

lighting 189:8

likelihood 34:22

likely 60:22

171:18,19

321:17

limbs 195:6

limit 19:9 56:8

61:9 142:4

177:19 202:16

261:10 262:9

limitations 275:17

limited 8:11,13

37:4 48:15 50:4

78:1,9 124:1

142:18 161:4

196:9 197:2

limiting 61:6

101:9 196:15

limits 256:17

Lin 2:11 13:17

line 30:9 31:15

32:11 39:17

206:9

linear 168:4

lines 212:3

list 4:21 10:14

74:1,3

134:1,10,16

135:1 136:2

160:2 162:9,10

172:11 181:17

197:17 222:1

231:17 240:15

253:10 254:1

261:15 334:19

listed 181:19 202:6

217:15 226:8

230:12 257:17

275:5 289:1

listen 303:16

listening 10:7

11:10

listing 227:17

291:11

lists 228:22

literally 53:11

313:11

literature 132:6

little 3:7 4:14,15

6:5,20 7:22 8:19

9:11 19:8 25:14

30:16 32:18 51:9

56:8 62:2 68:6

75:19 79:2 87:14

103:3 117:19

134:13

142:10,16

150:15 156:3

162:5 176:3

182:10 195:2

196:7 197:9,11

203:22 207:2

208:18 213:10

215:10 218:9,14

227:1 248:15

261:16 262:4

265:4 272:20

291:10,11

309:21 321:3

330:18 335:18

339:15,19

load 72:16,17,22

84:1,2,4,7,19,20

85:10 86:3,15

87:4,8,20

91:11,17 100:11

108:12 122:7,8

129:9 140:17

141:2,8 149:5

158:5,21 163:1

165:19 166:12

175:8 181:20

193:2 236:14

loading 208:4

212:4

loads 86:17 91:12

local 157:9 178:16

213:18

localized 35:8

location 315:4

328:5

locations 310:1

locked 48:7

logic 120:20

204:19 226:15

274:15

logical 14:10

long 93:1 119:6

307:10 315:19

335:22

longer 248:15

281:10

loop 60:1 121:11

loophole 58:21

59:6

losing 119:4

loss 270:5

losses 85:7

lost 97:4

lot 3:10,11,14,21

6:2 8:13 11:9

18:17 25:15

26:13 35:17

38:15

39:8,11,13,22

40:2 44:11,19,22

53:17 60:18,20

61:6,9,16 67:9

72:14 73:3,4

75:3 77:9 79:10

88:5 89:22 91:4

92:16 99:6

103:5,8,13,19

104:1,7,22 107:8
Capital Reporting Company

DOE- Commercial-Industrial Pumps Working Group 12-19-2013

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110:19

111:5,10,22

112:8,17

118:21,22

119:18 139:12

140:2 142:18

144:6,8,12

150:2,22 151:1

152:9 155:3

157:13 161:3

163:21 164:17

166:8 168:7

169:21 170:4

171:5 174:6

175:4 191:12

210:16 212:21

213:5,6,7,16

215:2,17 216:17

217:1,9,12,16

220:3,5,9 222:2

223:12

224:5,6,13,14,17

225:2,9 226:2,6

227:18 228:13

230:20

231:16,22 233:4

234:4,5,7,17,19

235:4 236:21

237:1 238:11,14

241:13,17,18

245:22

248:3,10,13

251:22 254:8

255:7 269:16

277:20 290:1

310:18 311:2

318:2

330:6,15,16

336:16

lots 118:3 203:22

334:7

louder 68:7 150:5

Louis 2:16 12:10

72:6,9,10 119:16

126:6,7 131:8

147:10 149:12

150:3 151:16

153:7 165:17

287:3

love 225:18

low 64:14 118:4

156:3

lower 64:18 96:8

114:4 179:17

Lucas 2:3 3:17

5:20 9:19 12:17

25:13 26:11

35:20 36:9 39:6

41:13 50:11

77:13 155:12

159:16 169:13

172:8 177:11

182:13 183:22

188:11 190:13

195:18 205:2

208:17 218:12

222:20 224:8

229:20 242:7

245:11 269:3

270:17 273:9

287:22 289:7

293:11 314:7

329:8 330:7

333:15 334:10

335:15 339:8

Lucas's 232:17

LUCY 341:2,12

lunch 125:18

195:1 233:12

237:10,13,17

238:8,10,22

239:7,16,22

334:14

Luxton 2:12 13:9

M

machine 311:1

machines 310:22

magnet 148:16

150:11,16

180:4,17

magnitude 206:6

284:6

mailed 239:8

main 206:12 315:1

mainly 243:15

maintain 28:14

309:7 311:15

major 131:1 154:5

240:12

majority 57:3 62:3

168:21

176:16,18

192:16 194:7

MALE 61:11

62:21 135:6

146:11 165:2

195:3,7 214:10

218:6,10 220:16

Man 337:18

manage 10:12

management

336:12,13

manner 100:7

162:17

manufacture

57:15 75:3

102:20 130:3,15

138:8 153:18

154:8 168:22

180:3

manufactured

154:13 176:17

244:18

manufacturer

31:3 37:13 41:16

42:1 62:11 65:4

111:18 113:11

132:15 137:4,8

145:21 146:2

173:1,6 216:12

229:2 276:22

337:11

manufacturers 2:5

30:10 38:8 42:21

57:12,14 60:3

64:19 66:13

69:2,13 70:11

75:7 99:15 100:1

110:17 113:16

114:7 118:15

123:5,8 124:2,17

130:3 131:1,16

134:22 135:2

141:13 145:10

153:10 154:5

166:8 174:5

176:7 177:6

178:21 191:19

210:6 213:17

216:22 226:22

267:9 271:6

276:18

277:4,10,16

278:2 287:6

337:7 338:15

manufacturing

75:22 138:4

153:22 154:1,2

210:17 310:7

map 258:9

March 305:18

307:9,16,18,19,2

0,22

308:4,12,16,17

309:16,19,20

311:13,14

312:1,7 315:3,5
Capital Reporting Company

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317:12 318:14

328:2,4

margin 323:1

mark 2:14 11:13

40:20 58:13

59:13 60:6 61:4

67:4,5 68:5,20

72:5 83:11

104:17

106:20,21

114:19

127:10,12

152:20,21

156:15 157:1

171:21 173:8

177:10 191:22

192:1 193:8,12

227:20 258:1

259:22 304:19

315:6 328:9

330:4 334:2

marked 14:20

market 19:19

20:8,17 21:5,22

22:2 28:19 29:12

30:13 42:9 57:16

61:1 62:8 72:20

73:19 113:16,19

114:11,15 117:5

118:13 119:5

131:2,6 141:12

150:19 151:1

153:20 154:7,12

159:1,2 161:17

191:3,17,18

242:4

marketplace 133:1

154:5 160:12

180:6 268:16

Mark's 333:6

Maryland 313:8

328:4

MarylandPennsylvania

313:10

Masters 2:12

13:16

material 16:2

materials 6:22

161:16

mathematicians

296:14

matter 11:3 26:4

30:10 47:6 70:16

101:2 118:20

186:19,20

187:18 188:17

246:12 323:1

332:22 338:11

matters 204:14

288:3 312:18

maturity 163:9

Mauer 2:13 12:8

112:12 134:20

135:5,11,17,20,2

2 142:10 144:3

156:14 190:12

242:14 243:19

244:1 253:14,21

254:7,16

255:3,8,19

256:3,8,19

257:7,9,19

261:12 262:6,12

283:3 291:9

max 160:13

maximum 254:3

261:15

281:15,16

may 7:10 8:15

17:13 22:18

23:14 29:8 36:4

56:8,9 65:3 66:1

73:3 85:5,11

91:17 99:3

107:21 138:3

144:20 147:5

149:4 157:16

172:3 173:19

179:1 183:4

187:11 188:4

199:14,17

220:19 224:22

228:21 233:17

235:18 236:7

239:9,12 240:7

246:16 251:7

252:1 258:15

262:10 269:6

284:7 293:10,11

294:4,17 298:7

299:22 302:13

310:14 316:2,5

317:13,14,18,21,

22

318:1,5,8,11,16,

22 319:14

320:1,8,11,15

321:11,14,21

322:7,8,12,14

323:2,11 328:12

336:1 337:9

339:1

maybe 6:8 11:2

25:14 37:16 45:7

53:6 76:13

110:11 112:13

115:4,5,11

125:14,17 128:6

137:9 143:17

146:21 147:15

156:3 157:10

160:18 166:18

174:22 175:22

190:16 195:22

197:10 201:12

202:7,21

208:20,21 209:8

210:1

213:2,4,8,9,10

215:16,17

217:7,10,11

219:18 223:4

225:15 236:6

237:9 241:10,16

255:10,17 257:2

270:6 275:10,11

279:5 288:15,16

289:4 291:7,16

295:22 308:19

310:9 311:9,22

313:6 314:16,18

315:4 316:1

327:17 328:3

332:14

mean 7:16

17:12,18 20:14

24:22 27:6 34:9

36:15 37:1 38:13

42:4 43:20

51:9,20 53:17,18

56:12 60:13

68:16 70:13

78:19 82:17

83:14 85:9 87:13

93:4,9 94:1 97:9

98:10,21 106:7

110:5 117:2,12

119:17 126:12

129:22 138:16

141:2 144:17

153:13

155:12,16 158:1

159:17 167:22

168:19 170:9

176:3 178:2

192:7 196:17

198:15 199:3

200:3,4 202:6,17

207:3 208:6,19

212:2,10,20,21
Capital Reporting Company

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215:11 218:21

221:2 228:7,8

236:21 237:6

242:5 243:6,12

244:4 250:20

255:1 260:11

267:1 270:3

283:19 285:19

286:7 287:21

289:8,11 290:5

295:8 309:8

310:15 312:10

314:6 325:7

meaning 30:13

meaningful 5:2

301:12

means 16:19 85:6

143:4,5,15 212:6

252:11 270:18

297:2

meant 20:3 172:19

334:14

meantime 215:20

measure 83:14

92:3 93:12

97:16,20 99:10

106:18 108:15

121:2 130:9

measured 118:11

measurement 93:5

94:17 98:19

measures 91:13

measuring 92:2,17

94:22 99:20

106:5,9,13

mechanical 19:6

21:11,20 51:21

74:18 91:18

118:11

mechanism 52:20

101:19 139:4

180:7 334:21

mechanisms 53:1

125:6 159:1

meet 57:16 66:18

111:1 125:13,16

127:21,22

160:20 277:6

289:5 291:17

308:12 326:10

meeting 3:19

8:5,17 26:15

88:7 90:5 116:22

124:13 142:22

143:4,6,8,12

154:17 159:22

161:1 166:19

194:1 209:1

217:20 219:13

220:20 222:12

225:7,13 226:2

234:15 245:13

246:3 264:16

267:3 273:13,18

287:20 299:1

300:4,8 307:12

309:2,22

311:6,14,21,22

317:10 321:13

323:17

324:6,9,13,14,17

327:17 328:12

330:20

332:11,13,15

333:9 334:20

336:2,7 340:2,8

meetings 209:22

223:7 298:14,16

324:5,18 325:4

331:4,12 332:18

339:21

meets 57:18 208:9

210:8

Meg 2:18 11:19

38:4 41:6 68:2,7

74:10 79:5,17

136:21 140:8

186:16 304:6

305:3 308:1

333:4

mega 171:4

Meg's 41:11 318:9

MEI 210:14

member 294:10

334:16 337:13

members 10:3,10

88:13 124:11

131:9 289:11

294:19 296:1

297:5 298:15

301:1 324:12

331:18

memory 146:4

mention 24:12

75:10 155:6

mentioned 192:18

224:5,8 250:21

334:6 338:2

mentioning 74:2

menu 211:11

Menzer 2:14

merit 44:2

mess 337:9 338:22

message 241:17

261:5

messy 339:15

met 125:15 338:17

meter 99:9 108:17

method 92:19

116:10 128:4,8,9

157:5

metric

54:11,12,16,21

55:10,15 66:19

79:2 80:14 82:19

101:13 141:20

160:10 165:11

266:1

metrics 79:19

80:2,17 81:18

82:5,21 183:16

266:19

mic 15:10 28:2

45:1 61:19 247:6

252:21

306:13,22 307:4

308:14 309:10

316:12

317:5,9,16 321:8

325:3,17

326:18,21,22

327:2,6,8

329:13,15,20

microphone 12:21

23:16 249:14

253:19

microphones 11:7

Microsoft

335:18,22

336:14,19,20

middle 99:11

137:6 226:12

259:16 267:10

mid-week 302:20

305:2 307:21

319:19

miles 313:8

million 62:19

63:12,13 73:9

310:21

mimicking 164:7

mind 9:16 48:4
Capital Reporting Company

DOE- Commercial-Industrial Pumps Working Group 12-19-2013

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www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014

53:9 70:16 75:14

77:21 127:4

151:6 159:10

201:6 210:12

218:16 238:15

246:6 266:16

285:20 288:5

334:15

minds 239:19

Mine 286:21

minimal 151:9

minimize

277:18,19

minimum 143:8

164:6 182:21

183:3,15 219:19

220:3 223:5,18

234:3,7 246:8,15

247:1,12 255:14

263:7,8,15,21

264:1,9,13 265:8

268:8,19 269:6

271:2 272:9

273:22 274:3

278:10 279:1,16

280:17 282:5

285:2,7 286:18

288:7 289:2

290:2

minimums 288:20

minor 25:13

279:14

minus 252:19

253:2 261:4

281:18

minute 129:16,18

minutes 133:17,20

194:22 282:19

287:20 310:8

313:5

misconstrued

227:3 273:17

misinterpreting

227:16

misnomer 153:21

miss 323:3,4,6

missed 162:12

224:14

missing 147:7

245:22 280:19

318:7,9

mistake 275:2

mistaken 63:16

mix 17:7 105:6

mixed 220:14

226:14

Mm-hmm 184:21

model 169:3

modification 92:9

modified 165:6,10

modify 170:6

modifying 147:13

modular 47:4

93:21

modularly 47:15

moment 80:7 83:8

120:18 166:3

278:7

momentum

311:15

Monday 307:1

Monday-Tuesday

324:13

money 73:11

157:18

month 197:10

215:20 307:11

318:14

months 4:10 39:1

88:10 90:13

178:22 208:7

240:19 270:14

302:3 303:15

333:21

moot 194:13

morning 3:4,6,16

11:11,13 15:4

123:6 195:21

239:15 293:12

324:9

mostly 8:13

136:10 180:4

235:6

motion 272:13

motor 20:6,7

25:19 28:21 29:6

31:13 32:13

44:4,14,17 47:12

52:1 56:15

57:4,9,19

58:9,11,20,22

59:7,10 60:21

61:2 63:10

65:8,14,19,20

66:6,21 67:14,18

84:6 92:1 93:16

96:3,5,11,18

97:9,21 98:6,18

99:4,8,9,16

100:2,5

101:9,20,22

103:9 104:16

105:4

106:6,8,9,11,12,

17,19 107:20

108:19 109:20

110:13,16,18

111:18 112:20

113:12,17,20,22

115:15 116:19

118:12 128:20

129:3

137:5,9,11,16

138:3,4,5 139:8

145:21 147:14

148:15,16,19,21

151:7,13,14

152:6 153:10,18

154:1,5,11,13,14

156:7,11 163:2

176:8,10,13

177:6 181:6

222:4 235:17

249:8 250:15

252:13 266:2

motor-driven 22:1

30:2 37:21 42:16

motor-driver

25:22

motors 19:5 21:19

27:5 29:1

31:18,19 32:15

43:5,6 54:19

56:3,10,18,19

57:15,21 59:20

60:3,7,9 62:4,6,8

94:16 102:19,20

103:1,4,8,14

106:6 107:9,10

110:12 113:2

114:7,13 118:5

130:4,7,19,22

138:8 146:8

147:19 149:9

151:20,21

152:2,4,9 153:1

154:3,8 155:4,14

169:4 175:19

176:1,5 179:21

180:4 222:21

260:6 267:10,12

272:1

292:12,13,16
Capital Reporting Company

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motor's 111:1

move 44:9 48:14

49:12 87:19

102:15 115:6

121:15 134:15

159:3 194:18

211:22 213:8,9

215:8 219:6,16

279:1 285:8

296:21 321:12

327:9,10 336:9

mover 52:18,22

53:8 93:22

moving 130:22

159:9 195:8

197:9 272:1

273:8 298:4

multi 262:8

multiple 37:2 93:7

207:21 235:10

multi-speed

200:16

multistage 226:13

multi-stage 253:16

254:21

municipal 244:21

mute 10:8

mutual 49:4

myself 145:1 238:4

272:16 276:17

289:14 295:14

mysterious

94:10,14

N

NAECA 33:12

nail 70:18

narrow 56:17

226:18

Natalia 1:14

343:2,18

national 2:5,10,20

13:4,6 25:2 46:2

210:5

nationally 194:9

natural 2:18 11:19

22:19 28:5,6,20

Navigant 2:15,18

23:20 63:20

70:15 72:12

123:14 126:15

131:18,19 135:1

139:18 157:2

164:1,16

165:7,19 173:10

177:13 178:1

230:13,16

Navigant's 125:3

NDAs 178:5,7

nearest 295:9,18

296:5,10

Nebraska 38:21

necessarily 7:21

20:11,13 21:12

22:3 30:11 36:1

50:4 53:4 60:10

117:14 122:10

125:3 137:16

138:10 143:11

153:2 173:20

180:20 191:15

196:9 243:6

necessary 179:8

218:18 219:11

221:13 301:18

324:1 327:17

NEEA 12:10 72:11

126:7

negative 254:5

276:18,19

277:15

297:3,14,20

299:14

negatively

299:16,18

negotiated 1:7 7:3

9:14 279:9

negotiating 4:11

198:22 289:2

294:12

negotiation 7:10

36:1,6 118:18

136:5,9 195:15

204:22 268:10

293:21 301:17

335:7

negotiations

198:21 199:5

212:12 221:9

294:5 300:7

negotiators 234:7

neither 341:5

342:5 343:8

NEMA 59:2,22

NEMA-rated 62:4

nervous 291:10

Net 134:5,6

neutrality 28:14

56:6

Newton 296:13

NGOs 164:2

NIA 142:14,21

nice 3:5 15:8

250:16

niceties 187:19

nicety 185:18

niche 203:18

night 6:21 14:21

15:6 337:17

nix 279:4

nixed 278:17

284:4

nobody 98:6

154:21 168:1

180:12

noisy 154:21

nomenclature

232:2,8

non 32:15 33:4

38:13 124:20

281:13

non-binding

115:12

non-clean 23:12

24:15

none 277:18

non-electric 19:17

45:21 55:4

259:10

non-electrical

172:17

non-motor 25:19

non-pump 217:6

non-specialized

281:13

nonstandard

185:14

NOPR 198:21

199:3,7

nor 131:8 341:5,6

342:5,6 343:8

normal 9:17 211:2

normally 135:15

north 153:10
Capital Reporting Company

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310:8

Northwest

2:8,16,20 12:6

13:4 165:9

note 5:17 49:9

249:2 281:19

288:16,17

300:22 309:21

notes 9:13 162:11

nothing 56:13

179:21 271:13

Nothing's 107:4

notice 207:9

notified 298:16

noting 233:16

240:6 245:8

293:6,10

novel 128:5

NPSH 170:5

nuance 32:4,19

nuts 274:16

O

Oakland 313:13

objective 337:12

obligations 36:2

observation 19:18

27:15 28:12

179:13

obtain 262:21

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Capital Reporting Company

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148:6,8 155:5

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20:6 21:3,21

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31:8,9 32:14

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91:3,12 92:1,22

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104:15 106:10

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111:16,19,22

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271:8,9,11

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281:10,11

286:19
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pump-in-a 107:1

pumping 28:19

43:13 45:22 46:5

265:15

pumps 7:17 8:12

18:7,8 19:10

21:14,15

22:13,18 23:11

25:10,20 26:2

27:1,2,19,21

28:5,16 30:2

33:3,4,14 35:1,4

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38:16 40:2

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270:22 271:7,14

272:1,3 274:1

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101:14,15 176:9

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qualms 271:6

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210:11 230:9

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quorum 294:16,18

297:4

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R20 203:14,17

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282:13 300:19

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20:8,12,13,14

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190:13

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299:22 310:5

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49:2 183:10

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218:19 225:8

recommendations

202:22

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241:20

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20:20

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293:11

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81:10 83:6,9

84:16 86:9 92:11

96:6 97:3 98:9

109:14,21 110:6
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122:14 127:8

128:13 129:1

131:3 132:18

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272:12,22

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290:4 320:13

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216:22 228:13

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160:16

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87:8 100:16

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representatives

182:11

represented
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representing

264:5

represents 35:20

224:6 232:15

request 230:16

requested 283:16

330:15

require 100:3

111:8 113:12

130:2 161:16

200:14

required 91:14

113:21 284:9

requirement 32:13

182:16,17,20

183:20 284:13

requirements

32:16

requires 99:17,22

297:5 307:2

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residential 33:16

71:16,18 78:5,7

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188:6,7,20 189:1

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191:14,17

192:10,17

194:6,9 200:13

resolution 209:19

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339:16

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271:21

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resume 133:21

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revenue 310:21

review 33:6

240:10 263:11

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rocket 92:6 93:4

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35:17 121:4

131:14 162:6

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303:21

304:17,18

330:14

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11:21 14:18

19:11 22:10,11

23:6,18 24:11

32:3 45:12,13

46:8 52:11

55:2,22 69:11,21

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115:10,19 116:2

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302:9,15

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308:21 309:3

320:18 322:12

325:16

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331:7,8

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Rosenstock's

28:12

rough 156:1

168:11 335:16
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round 115:21

290:1 296:7,9

roundabout

225:20

rounding

295:6,9,17

296:4,11,13

route 132:9

row 80:12

rubber 208:9

210:7

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69:18 159:4

189:16,17

196:20 198:8,10

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289:18 299:11

329:10

rulemaking 5:7,11

9:14,17 30:3

49:20 136:12

156:19 158:19

161:5,9 189:2

198:9,12,14

200:5 203:3,14

236:19 277:17

278:16 279:9

292:11 300:10

329:5 331:11

rule-making

118:20

RULEMAKING

1:7

rulemakings 69:15

rules 4:3 6:19

14:21 60:14

134:12 160:9

184:9 196:12

205:4 212:19

218:16,20 219:7

233:16 240:11

262:19 274:5,6

275:5 278:17

279:8 293:6,14

296:11,12

300:15,17 301:5

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84:22 97:20

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150:17 160:1

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running 74:1 78:6

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S

sacrifice 169:19

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sales 23:1 25:1

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166:5 174:18,19

216:19 217:14

222:15 228:22

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save 152:7

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63:5 73:6 76:1

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175:20 182:6

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306:20 308:20

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schematically 96:7

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science 92:7 93:4

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19:10 23:11

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29:21 32:19 34:7

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53:4 55:5 56:8

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115:20 116:16

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220:20 221:16

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264:2,10,13

265:8 268:8

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273:14 276:21

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279:1,16

280:12,18

282:5,8

283:13,17,18

284:1

285:11,12,14,16

286:3 287:19

288:6,22 289:15
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298:22 330:17

scoping 22:12 90:1

115:19 265:20

301:11

screen 47:14

screened

161:21,22

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scroll 293:18

seasonal 39:1 87:3

seats 3:3

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54:17 55:16 70:3

102:19 103:18

166:4 189:19

195:16 215:9

221:10 222:19

224:10 240:9

247:19 294:3

301:3 311:21

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secondary 27:21

secondly 29:12

333:17

seconds 195:3

section 243:18,20

261:2

sections 71:19

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sectors 175:5

seeing 118:21

137:1 182:1

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seem 88:8 92:6

119:10,11

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162:14 209:16

219:5 223:10

225:17 226:5

235:5 238:1

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57:16 62:18

72:20 99:6

106:10,17

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113:13,17,20

114:7 151:12

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138:1 141:14

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semantics 160:18

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26:22 27:16

60:12 78:16

113:14 115:12

116:4 195:12

234:20 240:6

242:20 243:6

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114:20 118:20

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shelf 99:8 106:17
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sometime 206:18

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SVR 90:10

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