### Capital Reporting Company

DOE- Commercial-Industrial Pumps Working Group 12-19-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 1

U. S. DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY COMMERCIAL AND INDUSTRIAL PUMPS NEGOTIATED RULEMAKING WORKING GROUP

DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY 1000 Independence Avenue, SW Forrestal Building Washington, DC 20585 Thursday, December 19, 2013 8:06 a.m. Reported By: Natalia Thomas Capital Reporting Company

### Capital Reporting Company

DOE- Commercial-Industrial Pumps Working Group 12-19-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 2 1 A P P E A R A N C E S FACILITATOR 2 Doug Brookman, Public Solutions, Inc. 3 PARTICIPANTS Lucas Adin, DOE 4 Bob Asdal, Hydraulic Institute Bob Barbour, TACO, Incorporated 5 Alex Boesenberg, National Electrical Manufacturers Association 6 Charlie Cappellino, ITT Greg Case, Pump Design, Development, and 7 Diagnostics Dan Cohen, DOE 8 John Cymbalsky, DOE Tom Eckman, Northwest Power and Conservation 9 Council Randy Ferman, Ekwestral Consulting 10 Gary Fernstrom, Pacific Gas and Electric Company Sanaee Iyama, Lawrence Berkeley National Lab 11 Betsy Kohl, DOE Paul Lin, Regal-Beloit 12 Jane Luxton, Hydraulic Institute John Masters, Danfoss 13 Joanna Mauer, Appliance Standards Awareness Project 14 Mark Menzer, Intertek Doug Potts, American Water 15 Chuck Powers, Flowserve Corporation Callie Reis, Navigant Consulting 16 Steve Rosenstock, Edison Electric Institute Louis Starr, Northwest Energy Efficiency Alliance 17 Steve Thompson, TACO, Incorporated Greg Towsley, Grundfos 18 Meg Waltner, Natural Resources Defense Council Dan Weintraub, Navigant Consulting 19 Ben White, TACO, Incorporated John White, TACO, Incorporated 20 Sarah Widder, Pacific Northwest National Lab 21 22

### Capital Reporting Company

DOE- Commercial-Industrial Pumps Working Group 12-19-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 3 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 (8:06 a.m.) 3 MR. BROOKMAN: Please take your seats. 4 We're going to get going here. So good morning 5 everyone. Nice to see you bright and early here, 6 a crisp, winter morning in Washington, D.C., about 7 28 degrees or so. A little bit of snow on the 8 ground. 9 We had a very productive day yesterday, 10 and we covered a lot of ground, and we covered a 11 lot of ground without a whole lot of structure 12 that guided the conversation, and I think in some 13 respects that was useful, and in some respects it 14 raised the anxiety of a lot of folks in the room. 15 So I was thinking about it overnight. 16 I've talked with a few individuals this morning. 17 I've spoken with Lucas Adin, and we were going to 18 suggest here at the outset some goals for today's 19 meeting, to try and just create as much clarity as 20 possible, given the fact that we're in the very 21 early stages of this, and there are still a lot of 22 unknowns.

### Capital Reporting Company

DOE- Commercial-Industrial Pumps Working Group 12-19-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 4 1 But so for your consideration, I was 2 going to suggest the following goals for today. 3 One goal would be to finish the ground rules, and 4 the principle issue that remains outstanding is 5 the dates -- are the dates, and I think we've just 6 got to see what we can do to understand the 7 ambiguities involved in the dates, and still try 8 and establish something that we think is 9 reasonable, and have the capacity to revisit, as 10 we get into the details, as we get into the months 11 of negotiating here. 12 The other -- yesterday, we had several 13 kind of glancing blows at scope and definitions, 14 right, and so I want to see if we can get a little 15 more clarity and -- a little more clarity on scope 16 today, at least create a preliminary 17 understanding. 18 As we go forward, everybody in this room 19 is going to need to rely on data and analyses. So 20 to the extent possible, we want to create at least 21 a preliminary list of data and analysis needs. 22 Then test procedure, of course, is critical for

### Capital Reporting Company

DOE- Commercial-Industrial Pumps Working Group 12-19-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 5 1 doing the analysis, and for making the data 2 collection meaningful. 3 So somehow, we need to create a pathway 4 for test procedure, even though test procedure 5 work is still underway at HI and other places 6 perhaps. And then finally, at the bottom here, a 7 pathway for rulemaking, generally kind of a more 8 general discussion, for those that might have -- 9 still have questions about how this might proceed, 10 and how that relates to a more traditional 11 rulemaking activity. 12 So what I'm suggesting is the goals for 13 today, after some brief consultation. Other 14 thoughts on additional goals, I'm going to suggest 15 we start getting after these, okay. If anything 16 else emerges in the conversation that needs to be 17 taken up, we'll make note of it and we'll try to 18 figure out a way to get it included in the 19 sequence. Did you want to start off by saying 20 welcome Lucas, and anything about yesterday, and 21 Betsy, you as well? 22 MR. ADIN: So I think my comments will

### Capital Reporting Company

DOE- Commercial-Industrial Pumps Working Group 12-19-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 6 1 probably largely echo Doug's. I also think we had 2 a lot of productive conversation yesterday, but I 3 also had similar concerns about the clarity of 4 direction. So starting off today, I think we 5 wanted to hopefully provide a little bit more 6 structure at the outset, and stating the goal is 7 obviously an important part of that. 8 But we also wanted to maybe try and 9 refocus these discussions about scope and 10 definitions and that kind of thing, and in a way 11 kind of start fresh right from the beginning, so 12 that we all understand exactly what it is that 13 we're talking about. 14 While we all have particular issues that 15 we're all each interested in individually, there 16 are things that we need to figure out at the 17 outset at a very high level, that will help figure 18 -- help us figure out where we're going as far as 19 timeline and the overall progression of the rules. 20 So I had a little bit of a discussion 21 with my team last night, with our legal counsel, 22 and I looked back at some of the materials that we

### Capital Reporting Company

DOE- Commercial-Industrial Pumps Working Group 12-19-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 7 1 had put together, both for the framework stage and 2 in anticipation of the preliminary analysis stage, 3 before we got into the negotiated rule, and I have 4 some slides that we can use, hopefully as a basis 5 for discussion. 6 It talks about some of the things that 7 DOE was thinking about with respect to scope. So 8 it's essentially a preliminary position that DOE 9 is planning to take, with the understanding that 10 these are all subject to negotiation. They may 11 very well change, like we talked about I'm just 12 one vote. So all these things are subject to 13 change. 14 But at least it would provide us 15 somewhere to start, you know. What does the term 16 "pump" mean? What might be included in the classes 17 of pumps that we're going to consider for 18 standards? All those things. We have some things 19 that we can look at, some things we can talk 20 about, and you know, they're not things that we 21 necessarily need to vote on today. I think it's 22 probably a little early for that.

### Capital Reporting Company

DOE- Commercial-Industrial Pumps Working Group 12-19-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 8 1 But at least we'll know the area in 2 which we're operating generally, so that we can 3 talk about what -- where we want to go from here 4 and hopefully, it will give us a better idea of 5 what we need before we come to our next meeting, 6 what kind of data we want to gather, what kind of 7 analysis we want to do. 8 And we -- the team does have some 9 preliminary analysis that hopefully we'll be able 10 to share by the end of January, but it's fairly 11 limited, because we've only been able to collect 12 sufficient data on certain classes of pumps, and 13 it's limited mostly to the Lot 11 type equipment. 14 So you know, we do expect to go broader 15 than that. So you know, we may need more time. I 16 don't know how much we'll be able to have before 17 the next meeting, but we can talk about those 18 things hopefully in more detail, and we also 19 wanted to talk a little bit more specifically 20 about the test procedure, because that is really a 21 very critical element in the analysis that we're 22 going to do.

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DOE- Commercial-Industrial Pumps Working Group 12-19-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 9 1 So we need to have at least somewhat of 2 an idea of how that's going to proceed, in terms 3 of the timeline generally, and if there's going to 4 be a significant lag on the test procedure, what 5 are we going to be able to do in the interim 6 period? What can we use as a basis for assumption 7 on how products will be tested, so that we can at 8 least do some preliminary analysis, before we have 9 a concrete idea of what the test is going to be? 10 So hopefully that's something we can talk about a 11 little bit more today as well. 12 MR. BROOKMAN: So I'd make a few process 13 notes here at the outset. The first is that as a 14 default, this is the first negotiated rulemaking 15 that I've done for the Department of Energy, and 16 in my mind I'm tracking the procedures that are 17 used in normal, traditional rulemaking processes, 18 and this is different. 19 So for example, I recognized Lucas to 20 make an opening remark. He's one vote among all 21 of you. Anybody that also wishes to make an 22 opening remark will have the chance, as soon as

### Capital Reporting Company

DOE- Commercial-Industrial Pumps Working Group 12-19-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 10 1 I'm finished with this procedural stuff, because 2 every vote here counts. Every voice is the same 3 among members in this group. 4 Second, those of us that are joining us 5 via the web, we do wish to make you welcome. We 6 wish to find a way for you to participate sensibly 7 in this discussion. So if you're listening in, 8 please keep your phones on mute and raise your 9 hand if you wish to speak. 10 And members, as they join us via the 11 web, they will be unmuted and have the capacity to 12 join in this conversation as best we can manage 13 it, okay. So having said that, I added one more 14 item to the list. We do need to establish a 15 schedule by the end of the day today, and we made 16 a good start on that yesterday. 17 Are there opening remarks here? Gary 18 Fernstrom. 19 MR. FERNSTROM: Just a question, Doug. 20 Gary Fernstrom, California IOUs. Do we have some 21 people involved in the proceeding today that 22 weren't here yesterday, that we might want to

### Capital Reporting Company

DOE- Commercial-Industrial Pumps Working Group 12-19-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 11 1 introduce? 2 MR. BROOKMAN: Sounds good, and maybe as 3 a matter of courtesy, if we'd just have each 4 person introduce him or herself again. Let's just 5 do that again. We'll start with Doug. Name and 6 organizational affiliation only, and yesterday, we 7 did pretty good turning these microphones on and 8 off. Let's try and be consistent about that. As 9 we go forward, there will be a lot more folks 10 listening online. 11 MR. POTTS: Good morning. I'm Doug 12 Potts from American Water. 13 MR. HANDZEL: Good morning. I'm Mark 14 Handzel from Xylem. 15 MR. HUBER: Al Huber from Patterson 16 Pump. 17 MR. POWERS: Chuck Powers from 18 Flowserve. 19 MS. WALTNER: Meg Waltner, Natural 20 Resources Defense Council. 21 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, 22 Edison Electric Institute.

### Capital Reporting Company

DOE- Commercial-Industrial Pumps Working Group 12-19-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 12 1 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary Fernstrom, 2 California Investor-Owned Utilities, which would 3 be PG&E, the Southern California Edison Company, 4 San Diego Gas and Electric, and Southern 5 California Gas. 6 MR. ECKMAN: Tom Eckman, Northwest Power 7 Conservation Council. 8 MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer, Appliance 9 Standards Awareness Project. 10 MR. STARR: Louis Starr, NEEA. 11 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg Towsley, Grundfos. 12 MR. CAPPELLINO: Charlie Cappellino, ITT 13 Industrial Process. 14 MR. CASE: Greg Case, Hydraulic 15 Institute. 16 MR. BARBOUR: Bob Barbour, TACO. 17 MR. ADIN: Lucas Adin, DOE. 18 MS. KOHL: Betsy Kohl, DOE General 19 Counsel's Office. 20 MR. BROOKMAN: Please stand. We don't 21 need a microphone. 22 MS. REIS: Callie Reis, for DOE.

### Capital Reporting Company

DOE- Commercial-Industrial Pumps Working Group 12-19-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 13 1 MR. WEINTRAUB: Daniel Weintraub, for 2 DOE. 3 MS. WIDDER: Sarah Widder, Pacific 4 Northwest National Labs for DOE. 5 MS. IYAMA: Sanaee Iyama, Lawrence 6 Berkeley National Lab. 7 MR. ASDAL: Bob Asdal, Hydraulic 8 Institute. 9 MS. LUXTON: Jane Luxton, Clark Hill for 10 Hydraulic Institue. 11 MR. FERMAN: Randy Ferman, Ekwestral 12 Engineering Consulting, supporting the energy 13 efficiency advocates. 14 MR. WHITE: John White, TACO. 15 MR. THOMPSON: Steve Thompson, TACO. 16 MR. MASTERS: John Masters, Danfoss. 17 MR. LIN: Paul Lin, Regal-Beloit. 18 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thanks again. How 19 many joining us via the web? 20 MS. KOHL: Four. 21 MR. BROOKMAN: Four, okay. Welcome to 22 those of you joining us on the web. Where do you

### Capital Reporting Company

DOE- Commercial-Industrial Pumps Working Group 12-19-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 14 1 think we should start with this? What would be a 2 sensible way? I'm looking at you, since DOE's 3 done a fair amount of work already. That's why 4 that remains kind of part of the default here, 5 right. 6 So should we start with -- which would 7 be -- of these do you think would be the easiest 8 to launch into? 9 MR. ADIN: Well, I think the most 10 logical place really is to start with the scope 11 again. 12 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 13 MR. ADIN: Because that's really kind of 14 the highest level item. So like I'm glad to bring 15 up our slides and start from there. 16 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's do that. Yeah, 17 yeah. That sounds good. Doug? Yes, Steve. 18 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock. I 19 just want to thank Jeremiah for sending out the 20 marked up, the tracked changes version of the 21 ground rules last night. I was able to print it 22 out. It was very much appreciated. It was very -

### Capital Reporting Company

DOE- Commercial-Industrial Pumps Working Group 12-19-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 15 1 - it's very helpful to show all the changes that 2 we made. 3 I know this -- we got the clean version 4 this morning and I appreciate that. The tracked 5 changes version was also very helpful. I just 6 want to thank you for sending it out last night. 7 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you, and 8 that's a nice capacity we have here. Thank you. 9 Thanks, Jeremiah. 10 (Off mic comment.) 11 MR. ADIN: All right. So as I 12 understand, we have some slides that we had 13 prepared for the purposes of discussing things 14 like scope and definitions and that kind of thing, 15 and we do describe these things in terms of a 16 preliminary position taken by DOE. This is based 17 upon what we had -- the information that we had 18 gathered, leading up to and prior to the framework 19 stage. 20 So again, understanding these things are 21 very preliminary, and we will be able to discuss 22 all of them. We at least wanted to put something

### Capital Reporting Company

DOE- Commercial-Industrial Pumps Working Group 12-19-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 16 1 out there to start the discussion. 2 So this is actually some material that 3 we had already started discussing yesterday, and 4 we have some basic information up there with 5 respect to the types that we're not planning to 6 consider. So just to make clear, the term "pump" 7 as we discuss it here is the word as it is used in 8 EPCA. 9 So in DOE's view anyway, the word 10 "pump," in terms of the statutory sense, 11 encompasses all three of those configurations 12 potentially. They all constitute what DOE would 13 consider to be a pump in the statutory sense. 14 So what we're really doing for the 15 purposes of this working group is discussing, in 16 more specific terms, what classes of devices 17 within that term "pump" we're going to set -- try 18 and set standards for. So DOE has already 19 determined what the term "pump" means generally, 20 in the statutory sense. That's the broadest 21 possible use of that word. So we're -- was there 22 a question? Sorry.

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DOE- Commercial-Industrial Pumps Working Group 12-19-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 17 1 MR. POWERS: Yeah. Just one question in 2 my world, and I think some of the other guys. You 3 had the word "sold" as well as this one to two 4 percent. So you're -- I'm speculating the one to 5 two percent relates to quantity in the word 6 "sold." 7 So you could have a big mix, you know, 8 on a sold unit dollar value versus quantity. So - 9

- 10 MR. ADIN: Right. 11 MR. POWERS: I assume that's what you 12 mean up there, because in other words, even those 13 engines and steam turbines and all may be a 14 smaller quantity, their packaged price could 15 outweigh. 16 MR. ADIN: So my -- 17 MR. POWERS: That's okay. I just want 18 to make sure I understand what -- the way you mean 19 quantity and sold. 20 MR. ADIN: Right. 21 MR. BROOKMAN: So that was Chuck. Thank 22 you, Chuck.

### Capital Reporting Company

DOE- Commercial-Industrial Pumps Working Group 12-19-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 18 1 MR. ADIN: Right. That's a useful 2 distinction. Thanks for bringing that up, and 3 certainly, to the extent there are questions about 4 any number like that, please ask. 5 But yeah, my understanding and I'll ask 6 the team to correct me if I'm wrong, but that's -- 7 in terms of number of pumps in use or sold? Sold. 8 Okay. So number of pumps sold and the type of 9 driver. 10 MR. POWERS: So it's not the dollar 11 value; it's the quantity? 12 MR. ADIN: That's right, the quantity. 13 MR. POWERS: I just wanted to clarify -- 14 MR. BROOKMAN: I'd like for him to 15 finish this slide, if that's okay. 16 MR. ADIN: Well, I don't know that 17 there's a whole lot more to say about this one, 18 other than - 19 - 20 MR. BROOKMAN: I want you to finish the 21 right-hand side of that column. 22 MR. ADIN: Okay. So we state there

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DOE- Commercial-Industrial Pumps Working Group 12-19-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 19 1 pretty explicitly what we do not expect to 2 consider, and that is to the extent we're covering 3 drivers, the efficiency of the driver itself, 4 we're not looking at types other than electric 5 motors, and then at the bottom there, we'd exclude 6 things like other mechanical equipment. 7 And it does imply here, and I think 8 we're going to talk about it in a little more 9 detail, but DOE is also expecting to limit the 10 scope for standards purposes to clean water pumps. 11 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock. Gary. 12 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay. This is Gary, 13 California IOUs. When I first saw the one to two 14 percent, I had the same question that Charles had, 15 one to two percent of what? But in looking at it 16 more carefully, it looks like that's a subcategory 17 of non-electric drives, and you're simply making 18 the observation that drivers other than electric 19 are a small fraction of the market, and that's the 20 rationale why DOE is not wanting to consider other 21 than electric drives. Is that correct? 22 MR. ADIN: I don't know that that's the

### Capital Reporting Company

DOE- Commercial-Industrial Pumps Working Group 12-19-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 20 1 sole rationale. That's a piece of information 2 that's worth considering. I think that's really 3 more of what we meant to -- 4 MR. FERNSTROM: But I understand. It's 5 probably the primary rationale. But just because 6 a bare pump, a pump motor combination, a pump 7 motor and control combination comprises a small 8 percentage of the market, is not a reason why DOE 9 expects not to consider those products; is that 10 correct? 11 MR. ADIN: That would not necessarily be 12 the sole reason that we would decline to cover 13 them, or even necessarily the primary reason. I 14 mean I think it's an important reason, but it 15 wouldn't -- it wouldn't -- 16 MR. FERNSTROM: What I'm trying to do is 17 establish that a small market share is a 18 subcategory of drives other than electric, and is 19 intended as at least one explanatory rationale for 20 recommending that drives other than electric be 21 excluded. Is that correct? 22 MR. ADIN: So the question -- let me

### Capital Reporting Company

DOE- Commercial-Industrial Pumps Working Group 12-19-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 21 1 make sure that I understand the question you're 2 asking. The question is basically whether DOE 3 would consider the fact that these particular pump 4 configurations used with these drivers as having a 5 very small market share, serves as sufficient 6 basis to exclude them from standard-setting? 7 MR. FERNSTROM: What I'm trying to 8 establish is what DOE does not expect to consider, 9 and reading it, it looks like DOE is not expecting 10 to consider drives other than electric and 11 mechanical equipment, belt, gears. 12 DOE is not necessarily expecting not to 13 consider products that comprise one to two percent 14 of clean water pumps, or not typically relevant to 15 clean water pumps. 16 MR. ADIN: Okay. I think I understand 17 the question more clearly now. So to state it 18 more explicitly, DOE is not expecting to cover 19 drivers other than electric motors, and not 20 expecting to cover mechanical equipment. So a 21 type of clean water pump that has only one to two 22 percent of market share on that, whether you know,

### Capital Reporting Company

DOE- Commercial-Industrial Pumps Working Group 12-19-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 22 1 if it's electric motor-driven, whatever it is, and 2 it happens to have just a very small market share, 3 that alone would not necessarily exclude it from 4 consideration, if that's what you're -- 5 MR. FERNSTROM: Thank you. Thank you 6 very much. That's what I was trying to establish. 7 MR. ADIN: Okay. Sorry it took a while 8 to get there, but yeah. 9 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve. 10 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. Steve 11 Rosenstock, Edison Electric Institute, and again, 12 this falls back to the scoping issue, in terms of 13 if we're just talking about clean water pumps or 14 not. I'll leave that issue aside. 15 Here's a couple of concerns. In the -- 16 during the framework document, during the workshop 17 in February, one of the slides says approximately 18 ten percent of the pumps DOE is considering may be 19 driven be natural gas or diesel engines or steam 20 turbines. Now it's one to two percent. That's a 21 significant difference. 22 And again, I'm assuming both are

### Capital Reporting Company

DOE- Commercial-Industrial Pumps Working Group 12-19-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 23 1 quantity of sales, not horsepower or -- so that's 2 kind of a humongous difference, pardon my French. 3 MR. ADIN: Well, I might ask the team to 4

- 5 - 6 MR. ROSENSTOCK: I have a couple of 7 other follow-up points. 8 MR. ADIN: Understood. That's a good 9 point. I might ask the team to back me up on 10 this, but my understanding is that the ten percent 11 was in a much broader scope of pumps. Like that 12 might include non-clean water type applications 13 and that type of thing. 14 MR. WEINTRAUB: I believe that may have 15 been -- 16 MR. BROOKMAN: Find a microphone. We 17 want this on the record. Please state your name. 18 MR. ROSENSTOCK: I've got a few more 19 points. 20 MR. WEINTRAUB: Dan Weintraub, Navigant. 21 Alison went back and after having input that was 22 given at the framework, went and revised those

### Capital Reporting Company

DOE- Commercial-Industrial Pumps Working Group 12-19-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 24 1 numbers, and I believe -- I can't say with full 2 certainty, because Alison's not here right now. 3 But I believe that it was with the scope that DOE 4 had reestablished. 5 So looking at the scope that was 6 proposed in the framework, one to two hundred 7 horsepower, clean water. This is the number that 8 now applies to it. I believe that that ten 9 percent number was over a larger scope, and was 10 not fully applicable. 11 MR. ROSENSTOCK: I appreciate that, and 12 the reason -- the reason I want to mention that is 13 if this group decides on a larger scope, that 14 number might change. Whether it's horsepower size 15 or application, non-clean water applications. 16 Again, depending on what this group decides and 17 what the final outcome is. 18 The second thing I wanted to say is it 19 might be one to two percent, but what percentage 20 of annual energy does that represent? Is that one 21 to two percent, is it five percent, is it ten 22 percent, is it 20 percent? I mean it's one thing

### Capital Reporting Company

DOE- Commercial-Industrial Pumps Working Group 12-19-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 25 1 if it's one to two percent of the quantity, sales 2 volume, and as well as national, I'll say, pump 3 energy usage. 4 But that one to two percent is really 5 the large, the big ones, the big guys for the 6 large agricultural applications, or the large 7 water system applications. That one to two 8 percent of quantity could be double-digit 9 percentage of the energy usage used by these 10 pumps. 11 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck, then over to 12 Charlie. 13 MR. POWERS: A minor, to help Lucas a 14 little bit maybe in this thing. If we're going 15 after the products we end up in Lot 11, it leans 16 back to what Charlie said earlier about the pump. 17 So two things I'll clarify. 18 If one to two percent are engine-driven, 19 motor, you know, non-motor so to speak, the other 20 grouping of pumps that we're going to be focused 21 on, when that pump goes to the shop, it doesn't 22 know if it's going to be a motor-driver or engine-

### Capital Reporting Company

DOE- Commercial-Industrial Pumps Working Group 12-19-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 26 1 driver or turbine-driver. 2 If we make a decision on the pumps in 3 the other grouping, those one to two percent end 4 up being turbine. It doesn't matter, because 5 we're already going to affect the efficiency or 6 the improvement on the pump. 7 So if you ignore the one to two percent, 8 you're going to get what you want anyway, because 9 we're not going to change our pump design for 98 10 percent. It's still going to be the bulk. That's 11 number one, in my opinion, you know, to help Lucas 12 on this clarification, right. 13 And then the other issue is the Lot 11, 14 which I think what Al and them had done back in 15 February was not part of the meeting, clearly was 16 a certain grouping of products and stuff at that 17 time. But it also lends itself credibility back to 18 the issue of focusing on the pump, because that's 19 the primary energy driver, right? 20 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, Charlie. 21 MR. CAPPELLINO: Charlie Cappellino with 22 ITT. Just to give you some sense, our business

### Capital Reporting Company

DOE- Commercial-Industrial Pumps Working Group 12-19-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 27 1 covers a very broad cross-section of water pumps, 2 industrial pumps, and if I walked you through our 3 factory, I would say 98 percent of the product 4 that goes out that factory are electrically-driven 5 motors. A steam turbine or an engine-driven piece 6 of equipment is pretty rare. I mean it's pretty 7 small, and I would suspect the same would be of 8 the case for the other companies around the table 9 here. 10 I was also going to ask Doug who, you 11 know, has -- I think you said 7,000 units in the 12 field. 13 MR. POTTS: That's correct. 14 MR. CAPPELLINO: I just wanted to ask 15 you what your observation would be, from a 16 statistical standpoint, in a general sense. 17 MR. POTTS: I'd say in our fleets, 18 probably in the high 90's -- it's in the -- yeah, 19 I'd say it's in the high 90's of pumps that are 20 strictly electric-driven. We do have some cases 21 where we have pumps that have a secondary drive 22 connected to a diesel drive for emergency purposes

### Capital Reporting Company

DOE- Commercial-Industrial Pumps Working Group 12-19-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 28 1 in a power outage. 2 (Off mic comment.) 3 MR. POTTS: No, no. We do have a large 4 plant in New Jersey that has several high service 5 pumps that run on natural gas. That's partly 6 because natural gas is cheaper than electric. But 7 that's one plant out of hundreds of plants that we 8 have. So it's a small percentage. 9 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary. 10 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary Fernstrom for the 11 California Utilities. I'd like to support Steve 12 Rosenstock's position and observation here. I 13 think it's very important that we and the 14 Department of Energy maintain fuel neutrality. As 15 was pointed out by Charles, it's true that most of 16 these pumps are electrically driven. 17 But to give you a specific example in 18 California, I don't have a number, but there's a 19 huge market in agricultural pumping, where farmers 20 have a choice of a diesel engine or a natural gas 21 engine versus an electric motor. 22 Diesel engines and gas engines are both

### Capital Reporting Company

DOE- Commercial-Industrial Pumps Working Group 12-19-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 29 1 significantly more polluting than electric motors, 2 and we wouldn't want to incidentally create an 3 efficiency standard that would in any way cause 4 someone to want to choose a different drive, you 5 know, that would be an engine in lieu of an 6 electric motor, because that would have adverse 7 environmental consequence, although as Doug 8 pointed out, it may be less expensive. 9 So it seems to me that this exclusion 10 isn't really germane or relevant to what we're 11 doing here, because it only applies to a small 12 fraction of the market, and secondly, we don't 13 want to cause an adverse outcome. 14 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's return to the 15 slides. 16 MR. ADIN: Well, just a couple of points 17 in response. So first of all, a point to 18 reiterate, and I think at this point everyone 19 understands this, but the exclusion, if in fact we 20 do exclude pump systems of this type, it does not 21 exclude them from the overall scope of the term 22 "pump" in EPCA.

### Capital Reporting Company

DOE- Commercial-Industrial Pumps Working Group 12-19-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 30 1 So we would only be covering electric 2 motor-driven pumps for the purposes of this 3 rulemaking, but it does not preclude us from 4 writing a standard for them in the future. So 5 just to make sure that that's clear. 6 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary again. How do you 7 know that this pump product is an electrically8 driven pump? You know, the 200 horsepower pump 9 rolls off the assembly line. Like Charles said, 10 the manufacturers, for that matter the appliance 11 regulators, don't know necessarily how it's going 12 to be driven. So how does this statement have any 13 meaning relative to the market reality? 14 MR. ADIN: So that gets to a question of 15 another broad issue that I expected we would get 16 into a little bit farther down, but we might as 17 well talk about it now, since it's kind of 18 critical to understanding in practice how these 19 things would actually be implemented. 20 So the critical aspect of how a standard 21 that DOE writes is actually applied to a given 22 product is on a basis of distribution in commerce.

### Capital Reporting Company

DOE- Commercial-Industrial Pumps Working Group 12-19-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 31 1 So it is how that product, as DOE covers it, and 2 sets a standard for it, is distributed for sale 3 and for use. So if the manufacturer distributes 4 it as an assembled system, and DOE has written a 5 standard that's applicable to that system, then 6 this applies. 7 If there's a standard that is only 8 applicable to the pump, it's the hydraulic portion 9 of the pump itself excluding the driver, and it's 10 distributed that way, then you're right. It would 11 be -- the standard would apply irrespective of 12 whether it's a gasoline-driven system or electric 13 motor or whatever it is. 14 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay. So following up 15 on that line of reasoning, which seems reasonable 16 to me and I agree with, we're essentially saying 17 DOE does not expect to consider drives other than 18 electric motors, for those products that already 19 have electric motors on them, right? 20 MR. ADIN: As distributed in commerce. 21 MR. FERNSTROM: Yes. 22 MR. ADIN: Right.

### Capital Reporting Company

DOE- Commercial-Industrial Pumps Working Group 12-19-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 32 1 MR. FERNSTROM: Thank you. 2 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve. 3 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI. 4 It's getting into nuance, and I appreciate that. 5 I'm just concerned that it sounds like DOE wants 6 to -- and again, it really depends on whether it's 7 one, two or three, but under a scenario of two or 8 three, again, if that is the agreed-to consensus 9 or if that's the path that wants to be taken. 10 Right now, the impression I'm getting is 11 that under that, I'll say under item, line item 2 12 or 3 as a process, that if there is some sort of 13 requirement on the motor or control, as well as 14 the pump aspect, that you were just focusing on 15 electric motors and not worrying about other non16 electric type of drivers, in terms of requirements 17 in a standard. 18 So again, it's a little bit in the 19 nuance. It's basically depending on our scope of 20 coverage, are we just only going to look at 21 electric drivers, yes or no, and that's what I'm - 22 - that's what kind of Gary and I are concerned of.

### Capital Reporting Company

DOE- Commercial-Industrial Pumps Working Group 12-19-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 33 1 And in terms of the timing yes, I understand you 2 might say well as a first standard, we'll just 3 look at the electrically- driven pumps, and we can 4 still cover the non- electrically-driven pumps. 5 But again under federal law, you know, 6 you have six years to review a standard. So it 7 could be six, you know, as many as six years 8 before I'll say the competitors to these electric 9 drives are considered under a standard, and I will 10 say -- I will use the example of space heating 11 equipment. 12 Way back under NAECA, all equipment, 13 electric, gas, oil equipment, had an increase in 14 standard in 1992. Heat pumps have had two 15 increases in standard since then, in 2006 and now 16 soon to be in 2015. Residential boilers have had 17 one increase. That was legislated and started in 18 2012. Gas furnaces have not been increased since 19 1992, okay. 20 So competitive products, one product's 21 been increased twice; another product hasn't been 22 increased in over 20 years. So again, you might

### Capital Reporting Company

DOE- Commercial-Industrial Pumps Working Group 12-19-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 34 1 say they're under coverage, but unfortunately, 2 there's been some DOE history where certain 3 products that are competitive with other products 4 have not been increased at the same rate. Thank 5 you. 6 MR. BROOKMAN: I want to make sure we 7 stick with the scope that's relevant here. 8 MR. ADIN: Well, but Doug if I might, I 9 mean I think Steve to some extent, and correct me 10 if I'm wrong, but to some extent you're invoking a 11 point that Gary Fernstrom made earlier, about the 12 potential for fuel switching and competition 13 between something we have covered and something we 14 have not yet covered. 15 And it's a very valid point. It's a 16 concern absolutely worth considering. I think DOE 17 would be remiss if we didn't consider that. To 18 some extent, I think we already have in some of 19 our analysis. But I guess a question I might ask 20 the group up front, and I fully expect that we're 21 going to look at this in more detail down the 22 road, but really what is the likelihood that a

### Capital Reporting Company

DOE- Commercial-Industrial Pumps Working Group 12-19-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 35 1 user of one of these pumps would switch. 2 Obviously, understanding to some extent 3 that depends on the life cycle cost that we end up 4 calculating for electrically-driven pumps, as a 5 consequence of whatever standard we're going to 6 set. We can't really know that yet, because that's 7 a variable. But just given the landscape right 8 now, it sounds like it's a very localized issue, 9 depending on what kind of application you have, 10 and what the prices of those fuels look like, but 11

-- 12 MR. BROOKMAN: Just to clarify. I'm 13 hoping that these few slides help us to stay at 14 about 30 or 50 thousand feet in a way. Don't give 15 up on it yet, because I think it's going to be -- 16 it's going to provide a platform that's useful for 17 us, and there's a lot of difference in this room 18 in terms of understanding how this might work. 19 I'd also like to clarify that this 20 represents I believe, based on what Lucas has 21 said, DOE's kind of early thinking, not their 22 finished thought process, not the results of this

### Capital Reporting Company

DOE- Commercial-Industrial Pumps Working Group 12-19-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 36 1 negotiation, and furthermore, doesn't necessarily 2 respond to all their statutory obligations, right. 3 This is very early on here. So that's 4 why broader concepts and things like that may be 5 useful. I presume we're going to get into them in 6 greater detail in the course of this negotiation. 7 But I'd like to keep it at a fairly high level 8 right now, and having said that, Al and then Tom. 9 MR. HUBER: Lucas, is it -- you've got 10 three choices up there. Is it your intent only to 11 do one of them, or are you going to, you know, HI 12 proposed bare pump, and then also extended 13 product, which would be 1 and 3 originally. 14 MR. ADIN: Right. 15 MR. HUBER: So my question is, I mean I 16 think you address -- if you do all bare pumps, you 17 address their problem with engines, because you 18 are addressing the pump, and the pump doesn't care 19 how you're driving it. If it's more efficient as 20 an engine-driven or more efficient as an electric, 21 they're still more efficient. 22 So that's my question to the DOE. I

### Capital Reporting Company

DOE- Commercial-Industrial Pumps Working Group 12-19-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 37 1 mean you're trying to shoot for one, or are you 2 going for a multiple? 3 MR. ADIN: So the most concise answer I 4 can give you to that question is we're not limited 5 to one. We could conceivably do all three as part 6 of this standard. So you could actually write 7 standards -- 8 MR. BROOKMAN: In terms of your 9 statutory authority. 10 MR. ADIN: Correct, and again, it gets 11 back to that question about how the overall 12 product is distributed for sale in commerce. So a 13 manufacturer that only distributes what we have up 14 there as a bare pump, and it's assembled by the 15 user, whomever they have. 16 Maybe they have, you know, these are 17 replacement hydraulic pumps, you know. The user 18 already has a driver on site, and they're just 19 swapping it out, you know. That's that case. But 20 then you have brand-new complete systems, some 21 kind of close coupled motor-driven pump that is 22 distributed, you know, in a complete assembly.

### Capital Reporting Company

DOE- Commercial-Industrial Pumps Working Group 12-19-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 38 1 Then that's another case. Then you have 2 the final one where that's included, you know, has 3 a driver array of VSD included with it. 4 MR. BROOKMAN: Tom Eckman, and then Meg. 5 MR. ECKMAN: I guess my need for 6 information would help address whether I'm 7 concerned about this or not. Do any of the 8 manufacturers sell anything other than an electric 9 drive as a single product? 10 MR. BROOKMAN: Al? 11 MR. HUBER: Yes, we do. We actually 12 sell all three of those configurations. 13 MR. ECKMAN: No. I mean with a non14 electric drive. 15 MR. HUBER: Yes. We do. We sell a lot 16 with engines, but ours are fire pumps, which are 17 not, as far as I know, are not going to be subject 18 to this rule. 19 MR. POWERS: But even the ag industry, 20 as Gary I think was alluding to diesels and all 21 that, whether it's in Nebraska, center pivots, 22 whatever you want to call it, right? They're also

### Capital Reporting Company

DOE- Commercial-Industrial Pumps Working Group 12-19-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 39 1 seasonal, three months, four months, some cases, 2 right. 3 MR. ECKMAN: Do you sell those as a 4 single product? 5 MR. POWERS: Well, I wanted to get back 6 and clarify something to Lucas. I believe this 7 might be the case around the table, but for sure, 8 we sell a lot of bare pump new, because the 9 packaging industry has gotten really big and 10 really good at it, and in certain areas, we're 11 talking a lot of units going out as a bare unit. 12 Even in the agricultural industry, the bare, you 13 know, product, you know the horizontals is a Lot 14 11, whatever. 15 And they know whether you can get them 16 for a 60 volt or they can't take the 11,000 coming 17 down the line. They need them for a 60. They 18 can't get them for a 60, they'll go engine drive. 19 They'll go gas. Whatever their situation is, you 20 know, PTO drive, offload tractors, whatever. I'm 21 just using that as an example. 22 But we sell a lot of units. You made

### Capital Reporting Company

DOE- Commercial-Industrial Pumps Working Group 12-19-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 40 1 the bare pump was only to replacement. Yes. But 2 there's a lot of bare pumps going out there that 3 someone else, through distribution, through OEM 4 houses, whatever, package. 5 MR. ECKMAN: That's my guess. Do you 6 sell something other than electric drive when it 7 leaves the factory as a single product? Does it 8 have a diesel engine attached to it? Does it have 9 a propane engine attached to it? Do you sell that 10 as a single SKU, any of you, or only electric 11 drive when it leaves the factory? 12 MR. HUBER: I've already answered that, 13 I think, from our standpoint. 14 MR. ECKMAN: You have smart electric 15 drive? 16 MR. HUBER: It's electric drive, other 17 than the fire. 18 MR. ECKMAN: Yeah. 19 MR. HUBER: Yeah. 20 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel from Xylem. 21 Our answer would be the same as Patterson's. 22 Right.

### Capital Reporting Company

DOE- Commercial-Industrial Pumps Working Group 12-19-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 41 1 MR. ECKMAN: So other than bare pumps 2 that could go on any drive, you're selling 3 electric drives only? 4 MR. HUBER: Basically, yes. 5 MR. ECKMAN: So -- 6 MR. BROOKMAN: Meg, do you want to 7 comment here? 8 MR. ECKMAN: So I don't have a problem 9 with that. 10 (Laughter.) 11 MR. BROOKMAN: Meg's next. 12 MS. WALTNER: Yeah. I just had a 13 question for Lucas. In deciding, you know, which 14 types of pumps are regulated under which of these 15 three categories, you said it would be based on 16 how it leaves the manufacturer facility. I was 17 wondering if you could also, if we could consider 18 a horsepower range, where certain categories would 19 apply? 20 For example, you know, any pump over 20 21 horsepower would only be regulated as a bare pump, 22 regardless of how it was sold from the

### Capital Reporting Company

DOE- Commercial-Industrial Pumps Working Group 12-19-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 42 1 manufacturer. Is that -- I'm not suggesting that 2 in particular, but is that something we could 3 consider as part of how this construct would work? 4 MR. ADIN: Yes. Yeah, I mean we could 5 set -- and effectively what that would be is 6 defining the product classes that we're going to 7 set standards for. Horsepower ranges, the amount 8 of head, and any characteristics that we, you 9 know, through our evaluations of the market and 10 the potential for energy savings, determine are 11 the most appropriate classes of products to cover. 12 So yes, absolutely. 13 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary. 14 MR. FERNSTROM: Well, I'd like go back 15 to the question of relevance. Steve's concern and 16 my concern is that electric motor-driven products 17 not be discriminated against to the benefit of 18 other drive forms, such as diesel or gas-fired 19 engines. 20 I don't think that's a problem, because 21 the manufacturers just told us that generally 22 other than fire pumps, the only products that

### Capital Reporting Company

DOE- Commercial-Industrial Pumps Working Group 12-19-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 43 1 leave their plants as an integrated product 2 through distribution are products that have 3 electric drive. 4 So excluding drives other than electric 5 motors for products that are only sold through 6 distribution with electric motors, seems like an 7 unnecessary exclusion to me. 8 MR. ADIN: Okay. Well, okay. So just 9 in brief response to that, it does come back 10 somewhat to a technical question then, in terms of 11 how a product is rated. So if you're going to 12 write a standard that's applicable to that type of 13 pumping system, pump plus driver, for example, how 14 do you test them and develop a rating if you're 15 including both types of energy sources? 16 That's not a question I'm trying to 17 answer immediately, but you know, the reality is 18 that from a technical perspective, they might just 19 be fundamentally different. So you know, 20 including them together -- I mean we'd write 21 separate classes, I suppose. 22 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay. So this is Gary

### Capital Reporting Company

DOE- Commercial-Industrial Pumps Working Group 12-19-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 44 1 again. I don't disagree with you. Those two 2 cases that you presented probably merit different 3 approaches. However, the product sold with 4 something other than an electric motor isn't sold. 5 So we don't need to worry about how you test it. 6 MR. ADIN: Right. I don't think we have 7 a disagreement about that. 8 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Chuck, and then 9 we're going to move on here. 10 MR. POWERS: I'm going to make one 11 clarification. Lot 11, right. You get into large 12 oil and gas pipeline stuff that's in, you know, 13 that's not part of this. You can only go so far 14 with electric motor, okay. You get into huge, you 15 know, you get to a pipeline that's a 25,000 16 horsepower unit that's not going to be electric 17 motor. 18 So we're talking about what we -- we're 19 talking Lot 11. To be fair, I'm just saying Lot 20 11. But those others -- so when you -- I want to 21 make sure you don't think we don't ship ever 22 anything. Under the 200 horse Lot 11.

### Capital Reporting Company

DOE- Commercial-Industrial Pumps Working Group 12-19-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 45 1 (Off mic comments.) 2 MR. FERNSTROM: So this is Gary. I 3 understand, I agree. The discussion is within the 4 context of the sort of things we're talking about 5 here. 6 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah, and so far I guess 7 we're -- maybe you need to keep going with your 8 slides. 9 MR. ADIN: Right. 10 MR. BROOKMAN: I want you to keep going. 11 MR. ADIN: Sure. 12 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Hi. One other thing, 13 Steve Rosenstock, and again, this goes back to the 14 information accumulation. 15 Again, if it was one to two percent of 16 the annual energy usage, as well as one to two 17 percent of the sales, I'd probably be okay with 18 exclusion. But again, because of the large sizes, 19 especially if we're going up to over 200 20 horsepower, again we haven't decided that, where 21 there is a significant number of non-electric 22 drivers out there doing some sort of pumping for

### Capital Reporting Company

DOE- Commercial-Industrial Pumps Working Group 12-19-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 46 1 fluid X again, then you look at the energy 2 equation and the national energy usage. All of a 3 sudden it changes quite dramatically, in terms of 4 one to two percent of the pumps is 20 or 30 5 percent of the pumping energy usage out there. 6 That's all I'm saying. 7 MR. BROOKMAN: Go ahead. 8 MR. ROSENSTOCK: In our scope, it's 9 still down to one or two percent of the energy 10 usage of the covered products, then it's like well 11 okay -- 12 MR. POWERS: Just to clarify. The 13 statement was -- 14 MR. BROOKMAN: We keep diving pretty 15 deep here. Let's do this quickly. 16 MR. POWERS: The statement was not the 17 quantity and stuff. The statement was do you ever 18 ship any? 19 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie, you want to 20 follow on? 21 MR. CAPPELLINO: Charlie Cappellino, 22 ITT. So one of the things you're exposing here is

### Capital Reporting Company

DOE- Commercial-Industrial Pumps Working Group 12-19-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 47 1 the complexity of looking at systems versus the 2 individual pump efficiency, right? So one of the 3 advantages of looking at the pump efficiency in 4 and of itself, when you have a modular type of 5 product, which is kind of described up here, is it 6 doesn't matter what the driver is, because the 7 efficiency of the pump is independent of the 8 driver. 9 So you might want to just consider that, 10 as we progress the discussion from what we talked 11 about yesterday, where you have integral designs, 12 where the pump and the motor are design 13 integrally. That's a different scenario than what 14 we're talking about on the screen, where you have 15 the choice to modularly interchange drivers. 16 There's an advantage of just looking at 17 the pump in and of itself. So in the case that we 18 show up here, I think Al's point was looking at 19 the pump efficiency and regulating that bare pump, 20 that bare pump could be applied one, two or three 21 and regulated in one, two or three. 22 But there's also an opportunity, with

### Capital Reporting Company

DOE- Commercial-Industrial Pumps Working Group 12-19-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 48 1 the extended product approach, which HI has been 2 looking at, of looking at the system and control 3 and energy savings. So you've got to kind of, I 4 think, keep that in mind as you -- as we walk 5 through this. 6 So I would encourage people don't get 7 locked into a particular position, until we kind 8 of walk through what some of the opportunities 9 are. 10 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary. 11 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary Fernstrom, 12 California IOUs. I have a process-related 13 comment. I'm feeling the pressure to keep this at 14 a high level and move forward. I understand we 15 have a limited -- 16 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you for feeling the 17 pressure. 18 MR. FERNSTROM: On the other hand -- 19 MR. BROOKMAN: I think it's beneficial 20 at this stage, right. 21 MR. FERNSTROM: Well, but let me finish. 22 On the other hand, you know, what we include and

### Capital Reporting Company

DOE- Commercial-Industrial Pumps Working Group 12-19-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 49 1 exclude or the thoughts we have about DOE's 2 recommendation are a high level important factor, 3 and it's important that we get down in these 4 details, to come to a mutual understanding. 5 MR. BROOKMAN: I have no doubts that 6 your high level thoughts will find their way into 7 this conversation. No doubts at all, and that's 8 why you've got a piece of paper there that you can 9 make a note to yourself, okay, and that's why 10 we're going to keep it right now at a fairly high 11 level, and try and grasp some of these broader 12 platforms before we move on. 13 We've already created much more 14 understanding in this early conversation now. So 15 keep going. 16 MR. ADIN: Well, just to reiterate a 17 point I think I made yesterday, my view anyway is 18 that we're not talking about these things today, 19 for the purpose of setting them in stone for the 20 rest of this rulemaking. 21 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. 22 MR. ADIN: Okay. We're talking about

### Capital Reporting Company

DOE- Commercial-Industrial Pumps Working Group 12-19-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 50 1 this really for the purpose of deciding what's a 2 reasonable timeline, you know, with the 3 understanding that our timeline shouldn't 4 necessarily be limited by scope. If there are 5 things that we determine through the analysis that 6 we do or any other considerations that should be 7 included, then we should include them. So I don't 8

- 9 - 10 MR. BROOKMAN: So did everybody hear 11 that? I want you to state it again, Lucas. 12 MR. ADIN: Yeah. So we're talking about 13 this, just very high level and abstract -- no, not 14 abstract terms, but preliminary terms, I'll put it 15 that way. They're not very abstract at all, but 16 on a preliminary basis, so we at least know where 17 we're starting, what kind of data do we want to 18 gather at this early stage, and again, to the 19 extent we decide to amend that scope as we go, so 20 be it. 21 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So this was very 22 useful.

### Capital Reporting Company

DOE- Commercial-Industrial Pumps Working Group 12-19-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 51 1 MR. ADIN: Okay. So I think we've 2 already talked about this one in a pretty 3 extensive way generally speaking, but I've put up 4 some definitions that DOE has been contemplating, 5 that would help us define what all these 6 components are. 7 And again, this is getting into more 8 specific issues that really we'll need to address 9 a little bit further along. I mean this isn't 10 something I think any of us should feel 11 comfortable really making decisions on today, and 12 certainly not voting on today. But at least we 13 wanted to put something up there to start the 14 discussion, yeah. 15 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary Fernstrom, 16 California IOUs. I just have a quick comment on 17 definitions. I think our friends from Danfoss 18 would consider driver or drive to be a variable 19 frequency drive. I understand, in the context of 20 your definition, you mean it to be the product 21 that provides mechanical drive to the pump shaft. 22 Controls kind of breaks down into two

### Capital Reporting Company

DOE- Commercial-Industrial Pumps Working Group 12-19-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 52 1 parts. It's the VFD that gives a motor the 2 capacity to operate at a variable speed, and then 3 it's the control that determines how that speed is 4 chosen. 5 So I think we need to be, you know, 6 clear, because there's -- some of these terms are 7 used in different ways in the industry. 8 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, and I guess -- so 9 this is illustrative of DOE's early thinking about 10 this. Comments here. Yes, Steve. 11 MR. ROSENSTOCK: And again, to follow 12 with Gary, I understand because of industry terms, 13 this is what DOE is saying, trying not to confuse 14 the terms with the usual, I'll say the industry 15 types of acronyms or definitions. 16 In terms of concept, in terms of the 17 diagram, you know, instead of saying "driver" you 18 could say "prime mover" or -- there might be 19 another term to use so there's no confusion with 20 the industry term, in terms of control mechanism. 21 But in terms of a concept, the pump equipment, the 22 energy producing energy mover and then any sort of

### Capital Reporting Company

DOE- Commercial-Industrial Pumps Working Group 12-19-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 53 1 control mechanisms, in terms of conceptually, I 2 like what this is -- how you're describing it. 3 But again, it's just a definition. It's 4 not necessarily the scope of coverage. It's just 5 a finding here's what we're looking at. So I like 6 this as a concept with maybe revising the word, 7 just so there's no confusion about whether you're 8 talking about the mover or the control aspect. 9 MR. ADIN: Understood, and keep in mind 10 that these -- again, these are preliminary. Yours 11 is literally the first feedback we've received 12 from anyone outside the Department on any of this. 13 So we had every expectation that you would have 14 feedback, very helpful feedback, some of which has 15 been very helpful so far. 16 And terms are extremely important. 17 Obviously, I mean we spend a lot of time dealing 18 with definitions and what they mean, and how they 19 apply to coverage and determine coverage and that 20 kind of thing. So I expect we'll have quite a bit 21 more debate about these. Again, I don't think we 22 need to exactly hash out and set in stone what we

### Capital Reporting Company

DOE- Commercial-Industrial Pumps Working Group 12-19-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 54 1 want them to say today. 2 But I at least wanted to throw them up 3 there, to make sure that we understood that these 4 are the kinds of terms we're going to need to use 5 and define and that kind of thing. 6 MR. BROOKMAN: Additional comments here? 7 MR. ADIN: Oh, I'm sorry. Was there -- 8 no. 9 MR. BROOKMAN: No? Okay. 10 MR. ADIN: Okay. So this slide depicts 11 DOE's general view of how a metric, a rating 12 metric would apply in each of the three scenarios 13 that we had laid out. So where the top one is the 14 situation in which we're only setting standards 15 for the bare pump itself. So that would just be a 16 pump efficiency metric. 17 The second one would be the situation in 18 which we're setting a standard for bare pumps and 19 pumps plus motors. So that type of system, and 20 then the bottom one is all three. So we need some 21 kind of metric that could evaluate the efficiency 22 of all three configurations, so that they could be

### Capital Reporting Company

DOE- Commercial-Industrial Pumps Working Group 12-19-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 55 1 compared to one another. Steve. 2 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Hi. Steve Rosenstock. 3 Yeah, unfortunately, again just looking at the 4 slide, this assumes there's no non-electric 5 drivers covered under the scope. It's saying only 6 electric input power. Well, there can be other 7 fuel, fossil fuel input energy for the pump, even 8 under the bare pump scenario. So again, just 9 looking at the slide. But again, it's energy-based 10 metric, not just electric input power, for the 11 bare pump especially. 12 It doesn't -- the bare pump could be 13 driven by a whole bunch of different things. It's 14 not just electric power. So therefore, any sort 15 of metric, if you're just looking at the bare 16 pump; I'm not going to talk about the second or 17 third configurations as shown up there. If you're 18 just talking about the bare pump, it's going to be 19 an energy, I'll say a Btu input, regardless of the 20 type of driver, not just electric power drivers. 21 MR. BROOKMAN: Right so -- 22 MR. ROSENSTOCK: It's a significant, and

### Capital Reporting Company

DOE- Commercial-Industrial Pumps Working Group 12-19-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 56 1 the reason I say that, it's very, very 2 significant, because this scenario, this slide 3 makes it assume that it's only electric motors 4 that you're talking about drivers. 5 MR. BROOKMAN: You're back to fuel 6 neutrality. Al. 7 MR. HUBER: I wanted to point out, I 8 think, one thing that may limit the scope a little 9 bit and may help us, is that if we do the bare 10 pump, DOE already regulates motors. 11 MR. ADIN: Correct. 12 MR. HUBER: I mean you already do that. 13 There's nothing that we can do when we put a 14 coupling between it, that's going to change the 15 efficiency of that motor or that pump to any great 16 degree. So I think, my personal opinion, you need 17 to narrow it down to at least to bare pump and 18 pumps ,motors, and controls, because you already 19 regulate the motors. So why bother with that? 20 MR. ADIN: So can I ask a question in 21 response to that? 22 MR. HUBER: Sure.

### Capital Reporting Company

DOE- Commercial-Industrial Pumps Working Group 12-19-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 57 1 MR. ADIN: Our understanding, based on 2 the information we've gathered so far, is that the 3 vast majority of pumps that are sold with the 4 motor use a motor that's already covered by DOE 5 regulations. 6 MR. HUBER: That's correct. 7 MR. ADIN: Is there to any significant 8 extent pumps that are sold with some other type of 9 motor, that is not subject to DOE regulation? 10 MR. HUBER: No. 11 MR. BROOKMAN: This is for domestic 12 manufacturers? 13 MR. HUBER: This is for domestic 14 manufacturers. But it's my understanding that 15 they can't manufacture or produce those motors, or 16 sell them in this market unless they meet your 17 standards. Is that not correct? 18 MR. ADIN: That's correct, if it meets 19 the DOE definition of a general purpose motor, of 20 the type that's covered. There are all kinds of 21 electric motors. 22 MR. HUBER: We fall under the general

### Capital Reporting Company

DOE- Commercial-Industrial Pumps Working Group 12-19-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 58 1 purpose. 2 MR. ADIN: Right. 3 MR. HUBER: And as far as I know, to the 4 best of my knowledge, at least I'm paying the 5 price for it. So I assume, I'm assuming that 6 we're getting that. So that was my point. 7 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. 8 MR. HUBER: Why worry about pump and 9 motor if you're already regulating the motor. If 10 we're going to regulate the pump, why worry about 11 the motor? 12 MR. BROOKMAN: I want to hear from 13 industry folks first. Greg and then to Mark. 14 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg Towsley, Grundfos. I 15 think we need to be very cautious on that 16 thinking, is that especially on a globalization 17 and harmonization with what's going on in Europe, 18 because there could be an opportunity. 19 If you only regulate the pump and not a 20 combined package of a pump and a motor, then there 21 is an opportunity for a loophole for those that 22 develop a motor and pump integrated together,

### Capital Reporting Company

DOE- Commercial-Industrial Pumps Working Group 12-19-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 59 1 without being, I guess, a regulated one now, like 2 a NEMA frame or C-face, P-based, those kind of 3 things. 4 Then it becomes difficult for us here in 5 the U.S., that we're not regulating that whole 6 thing. It can become a loophole for somebody to 7 come in and say I make a combined pump and motor, 8 and if you don't regulate it, I don't have to 9 worry about any efficiency. So I think there is - 10 - should be a concern about a pump and a motor. 11 MR. BROOKMAN: I understood that 12 concept, but I didn't quite understand how the 13 application works with it. But I'll go to Mark 14 next. 15 MR. HANDZEL: So I'm going to support 16 both Al and Greg, because really they're both 17 correct. 18 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. 19 MR. HANDZEL: Our point would be that 20 there are some categories of motors that haven't 21 been defined as having to be premium efficient 22 yet, and I believe NEMA and DOE are working on

### Capital Reporting Company

DOE- Commercial-Industrial Pumps Working Group 12-19-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 60 1 that. So they're closing that loop already. So 2 that's, you know, it will all be regulated. But 3 then there also are motors that pump manufacturers 4 make, that Greg's comment would apply to. 5 MR. ADIN: So just to elaborate very 6 briefly on a comment that Mark just made, it's 7 correct that there is a motors standards rule 8 underway, which does expand the current scope of 9 coverage of motors covered by DOE regulations. 10 It doesn't necessarily cover everything 11 that's currently uncovered. It does expand it 12 quite a bit, and I don't know if we have a sense 13 just offhand of how much. But I mean we could -- 14 oh, did someone have the proposed rules? 15 MR. BROOKMAN: Al, follow on. 16 MR. HUBER: No. I just wanted -- I 17 wanted to follow on. When I was speaking of this, 18 I was talking about Lot 11. 19 MR. ADIN: Right. 20 MR. HUBER: And under Lot 11, I don't 21 think there's an issue with a motor. 22 MR. ADIN: And it's not likely that that

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 61 1 particular part of the market would shift to the 2 use of some other motor? 3 MR. HUBER: No, no. 4 MR. HANDZEL: Right, right. So Mark 5 Handzel from Xylem. Al is correct. If we are 6 limiting our focus to a Lot 11 discussion, it is - 7

- 8 MR. BROOKMAN: Is it appropriate to 9 limit our discussion to Lot 11? 10 MR. HANDZEL: In order -- 11 MALE PARTICIPANT: We did that 12 yesterday. 13 MR. HUBER: Yeah, we did. We did, 14 because we honestly believe at this point if 15 you're going to make the dates that you're looking 16 for, you'd better stay very close to Lot 11, 17 because the data is available. 18 MR. BROOKMAN: Uh-huh. You're next. 19 (Off mic comment.) 20 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, Tom. Pardon me, 21 Gary. 22 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary Fernstrom,

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 62 1 California IOUs. I'd like to present a view a 2 little different than Al's. I think the vast 3 majority of let's call them big pumps sold use 4 NEMA-rated DOE regulated motors. However, we were 5 talking about circulators yesterday, the 1/25th 6 horsepower motors, and probably by numbers of 7 units sold, those products exceed any other 8 category in the market, and they do not use motors 9 that are regulated in any way. 10 Frequently, they're built by the pump 11 manufacturer, and attached to the pump and they're 12 not regulated. 13 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you. Yes, 14 Greg. 15 MR. CASE: On the circulator issue, we 16 found a letter that we -- this is Greg Case from 17 the Hydraulic Institute. We found a letter that 18 we put into the public record, and we sell 1.7 19 million units in the U.S. We estimate that that's 20 about -- 21 MALE PARTICIPANT: Circulators. 22 MR. CASE: Circulators, yes. We

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 63 1 estimate that's .285 terawatts of energy used. If 2 we improved the hydraulic end of that unit, we 3 can't do more than about two percent, which would 4 be a five percent change. So we could drop that 5 down to .27 terawatts, which is a savings of about 6 .014 terawatts. 7 MR. FERNSTROM: Well Gary again. Greg, 8 I'm not talking about the hydraulic end. You 9 know, we've been talking about this product being 10 sold with the motor. I'm talking about the motor 11 end, and you know, thank you for sharing with us 12 that the industry thinks it sells 1.8 million, 1.7 13 million units. 14 I said I thought, relative to other 15 pumps, there was a large number of circulator 16 pumps sold. Am I mistaken about that? Do you know 17 what the volume of other pumps relative to 18 circulators is? 19 MR. CASE: That would be in the data 20 that was provided to Navigant. So they would have 21 that number. I'm not sure if they're prepared to 22 give us that number, but --

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 64 1 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay. Anyway, there's 2 no question in this proceeding that there's a 3 small improvement opportunity associated with 4 pumps themselves. Where we have an integrated 5 product, we ought to be looking at the efficiency 6 improvement opportunity of the integrated product, 7 the way DOE has laid out their approach to this. 8 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg, you want to keep 9 going? 10 MR. CASE: Well, my comment on that 11 would be then if you look at the integrated 12 product, you have to go to number three, because 13 it really has -- the controls have a huge bearing 14 on whether or not that product is a low energy 15 usage product or a high energy usage product. 16 They're not used as at full capacity. 17 They're not used at constant speed. The pumps are 18 actually run at a much, much lower rating most of 19 the time, and the circulator manufacturers can 20 expand on that. But -- 21 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg, what if it's not 22 shipped with controls?

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 65 1 MR. CASE: Well, that would be an issue. 2 The control system is often put together by the 3 installer. But he may be using components all 4 from that one manufacturer. 5 MR. FERNSTROM: So Greg, this is Gary. 6 I don't disagree with you, but there's an 7 incremental improvement opportunity just with the 8 motor going from an induction to an ECM motor, 9 regardless of how it's controlled. There's a 10 great improvement opportunity associated with the 11 controls. 12 But it's a two-step, a two-class, a two 13 category opportunity, and just by going from 14 induction to PM motor, you can make a 20 to 30 15 percent efficiency improvement, regardless of how 16 you control it. So I want to be clear about the 17 fact that there isn't just one choice here. 18 There are two steps going from the pump 19 and induction motor to a pump and PM motor which 20 is more efficient, than a pump, PM motor and 21 control. 22 MR. CASE: And I believe that we'll, you

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 66 1 know, that there's data that may be available, 2 that we would have to get permission to provide. 3 At this point, we don't have that permission. But 4 we did some surveys. There was some cost analysis 5 done in those surveys, and there's a significant 6 cost increase in changing motor types. 7 MR. FERNSTROM: There is, and there's a 8 significant -- well, we're getting into the weeds. 9 Go ahead. 10 MR. BROOKMAN: Well one thing I just -- 11 there's an important concept here I just wanted to 12 make sure we're bringing out. As we think about 13 the concept of integration and manufacturers 14 having something that they produce and package 15 themselves, I think all of you are clear about 16 this. 17 It could very easily be the case that 18 the standard would say you need to meet an 19 efficient metric for that thing that you produce 20 holistically, that it -- the entirety of it. 21 So to reach beyond the motor and the 22 pump to controls which you don't control, I think

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 67 1 about the enforcement implications and all that 2 stuff, you know. It's just -- I just thought I'd 3 make that point. Did you want chime in here Al, 4 Mark? Then I'm coming back to you, Steve. 5 MR. HANDZEL: Well just, you know, Mark 6 Handzel from Xylem. You know, I think it's 7 important. You know again, we've been trying to 8 emphasize a, you know a commonality with the 9 European Union Lot 11 format or product -- 10 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah, yeah. 11 MR. HANDZEL: --and you know -- and I 12 think we said it yesterday, that the European 13 Union had a separate initiative for circulators, 14 because they were regulated with the motor, as 15 Gary's pointing out. So I think it just goes 16 strongly towards suggesting that this needs to be 17 a separate effort, outside of this one, where 18 you're looking at that integrated motor and 19 circulator pump, where here we're talking about, 20 you know, the larger size pumps that there's data 21 for, we feel that we can take quick action for. 22 So I just, you know, just clarifying again.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 68 1 MR. BROOKMAN: We heard that yesterday. 2 We heard it several times yesterday. Meg, go 3 ahead. 4 MS. WALTNER: Sorry to interrupt you. I 5 just have a follow-up question for Mark. Can I 6 just drill down a little bit -- 7 MR. BROOKMAN: Meg, louder please. 8 MS. WALTNER: Sorry. My voice is 9 struggling. On the need for a separate -- I've 10 heard this a couple of times yesterday and today, 11 the need for circulators to be part of a separate 12 process. You know, I think within this process, 13 we can consider, you know, different effective 14 dates, you know, different timelines. 15 I guess I would just push back on the 16 need to separate it entirely. It doesn't mean 17 that we're setting a single standard for all pumps 18 including circulators, even if we consider them as 19 part of the same process. 20 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel from Xylem 21 again. You know, we haven't heard any separate 22 proposal and separate dates, you know. We've

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 69 1 heard a pretty firm date schedule. 2 So I think from the pump manufacturers' 3 perspective, we're saying okay. If we want to 4 truly do something to the schedule that we kind of 5 outlined yesterday, this is where we think we need 6 to go. 7 So I think, you know, if there's other 8 dates and other ways that we can look at it, I 9 think then that needs to be discussed. 10 MR. BROOKMAN: Uh-huh. Steve. 11 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Two points. You know, 12 for, you know, depending on the product, just 13 historically manufacturers have been given outside 14 of a statutory -- outside of the statutory, which 15 changed the deadlines. In typical rulemakings, 16 DOE's given anywhere from typically three to five 17 years lead time for products being covered, 18 between the publication of final rule in Federal 19 Register and when the actual compliance date is. 20 MR. BROOKMAN: Right, right. 21 MR. ROSENSTOCK: That's been the typical 22 timeline, again just to point out, an FYI for

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 70 1 everybody. 2 MR. BROOKMAN: Correct. 3 MR. ROSENSTOCK: The second thing is 4 again, it's getting back to the information going 5 back to this global, again, 50,000 foot level is, 6 is there information about the percentage of pumps 7 that are sold with integrated controls? 8 Again, if it's five percent and 95 9 percent are third party field-installed, versus 10 you know, that's key in terms of you're regulating 11 a product that the manufacturers really don't 12 make. 13 I mean that to me is a critical piece of 14 information in terms of scope of coverage. Again, 15 I hope that information is provided to Navigant. 16 But in my mind, again, it's a matter of that would 17 really help in terms of -- 18 MR. BROOKMAN: We'll have to nail that 19 down. We will. 20 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Yes. 21 MR. ADIN: So if -- I'm sorry. Just 22 really quick, to clarify one point that Steve

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 71 1 made. It is correct, that we usually do have a 2 three to five year lead time from publication date 3 to compliance. This being a new standard, or a 4 product that was not previously covered by 5 standards, my understanding is that it will be 6 five years, is that right? I'll let counsel 7 correct me if I'm wrong. 8 MS. KOHL: Yes. 9 MR. BROOKMAN: Counsel says -- 10 MR. ADIN: All right. 11 (Simultaneous speaking.) 12 MR. BROOKMAN: Dan. 13 MR. COHEN: If I can. So what's 14 happening here, within the statute there is a 15 cross-walk basically between the industrial 16 equipment provisions and the residential equipment 17 provisions. The setting of standards for new 18 products is within the residential, but there are 19 certain sections that apply back and forth. 20 Actually, we're going through that right now. 21 MS. KOHL: It's a complicated exercise. 22 MR. COHEN: So we will get back to you

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 72 1 on that. 2 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thanks for that. 3 Whenever you get that -- whenever you're ready to 4 get back to us, let us know. Did you wish to say 5 something, Mark? Al. 6 MR. ADIN: Louis had a comment before I 7 started talking again. 8 MR. BROOKMAN: Oh yes. Pardon me, 9 Louis. Thank you. 10 MR. STARR: Yeah. So this is Louis 11 Starr with NEEA. You know, some of the things 12 that I'm hoping that Navigant, the consultants, 13 we're talking about the amount of energy being 14 .285 terawatts, and you know, there's a lot of 15 ways you can divide up energy, without 16 understanding what the load profile is. 17 If they just take connected load, that's 18 a very, you know, the amount of horsepower 19 something is, as compared to the total amount of 20 horsepower you sell into the market, that's a 21 very, you know, that number really needs to have a 22 load profile.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 73 1 So what I'm basically saying, something 2 that's a fractional horsepower can actually 3 consume a lot of energy. So we may be talking 4 about a lot of energy, certainly more than .28 5 terawatts. We're talking 20 percent of that 6 number as a possible savings. There's an immense 7 opportunity there. 8 So that's why I, you know, we're talking 9 about 1.7 million products out there each year for 10 the next 30 years. That's a considerable amount 11 of money and a life cycle cost analysis for the 12 DOE. So I think it's very critical that we 13 identify what the opportunity is here, and that's 14 what we spent probably three or four hours 15 yesterday talking about. 16 I think I speak for most of the 17 advocates when I say that we're going to be very 18 unsatisfied that there's not data to support this 19 information, and understanding what the market is 20 and what the energy use is. 21 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. 22 MR. ADIN: So I -- just to let everyone

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 74 1 know, I'm trying to keep a running list of the 2 data needs that we've been mentioning as we're 3 going here, and we can go back through this list 4 after we've had this discussion, and make sure 5 that these are things that, you know, these are 6 the critical things that we need to know to make 7 these decisions, and if there's anything else that 8

-- 9 MR. BROOKMAN: I think Al and then go 10 next to Greg and then to Meg. 11 MR. HUBER: I know I have a comment -- I 12 have a comment on what Steve had to say. The 13 industry is concerned that the broader the scope, 14 the more effort we're going to have to make. 15 You're calling this one product, but in our eyes, 16 each one of these classes is a product, believe 17 me. 18 The mechanical and the hydraulics are 19 all different, and we're really concerned, because 20 we have a finite amount of hydraulic engineers in 21 this country. In fact, there are very few. The 22 ones that exist, exist in our facilities today.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 75 1 And not only are they going to have to 2 get one pump ready, but many of us already 3 manufacture all five of Lot 11, and you start 4 stretching that out to something else, and we're 5 going to have great difficulty making five years, 6 and it's going to cause -- it's going to cause the 7 smaller manufacturers to go out of business, 8 because they're not going to be able to compete 9 with the larger ones for the talent pool that they 10 need to be able to do this. Not to mention the 11 cost of -- the cost of redesign and patterns and 12 tooling and the rest of it. 13 So I just want -- I want everybody to 14 bear that in mind. That is one of our real 15 concerns here. 16 MR. BROOKMAN: Thanks for raising that. 17 Chuck. Right. Okay. 18 MR. POWERS: And I think we talked a 19 little bit about it yesterday and I've talked to 20 individuals. The -- it'll also force probably 21 some of the bigger players to go offshore with 22 their manufacturing because that's where the cost

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 76 1 savings are. 2 And the sourcing and the -- and the -- 3 and the patterns and the -- it'll just remove the 4 industry and then the other factor comes down to 5 the return on that investment. 6 So what's going to happen is will the 7 end use -- we don't know yet, will the end users 8 pay two, three times more for that product, right, 9 which is good, right, in a way, because it's 10 getting the efficiency and stuff. But then 11 there's a balance there, too. 12 And then -- then will people then say, 13 well, maybe I want a standard product and not 14 worry about this because they can't afford the 15 cost. 16 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. 17 MR. POWERS: There's a -- there's a -- 18 there's a balance as we go through this. It isn't 19 just, you know, we've got to understand what's in 20 scope. 21 And if we start at a certain level -- 22 and then over time I think I heard DOE say that --

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 77 1 that, you know, if we can expand on that as time 2 proceeds, then that's what we have to look at. 3 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. Greg. 4 MR. CASE: Greg Case, Hydraulic 5 Institute. Two parts to that, one other hurdle I 6 see in this is that we don't have a standard for - 7 - or a test standard for circulators. It's in 8 process. But it's well behind the standard for the 9 Lot 11 pumps that we were prepared to -- we work 10 very hard to prepare a test standard for. 11 So I guess that was the comment I wanted 12 to make. 13 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. As was -- Lucas, I 14 don't want to put you on the spot, but you can 15 choose not to respond, does DOE at this point have 16 kind of a preliminary perspective on circulators? 17 MR. ADIN: So what I can tell you is 18 what came out of the framework -- 19 MR. BROOKMAN: Uh-huh. 20 MR. ADIN: -- stage. So granted this 21 was a year ago, and also keep in mind the data 22 that we've been able to get on circulators is

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 78 1 extremely limited, but based on what we've 2 received and what we know right now, our view 3 coming into this was that it was unlikely that 4 we'd consider the types of circulators used at 5 least in residential applications. 6 This is wet end -- or wet running 7 circulators used in residential applications, at 8 least for the purposes of setting standards. 9 Now, again, we're very limited in data, 10 so this was a preliminary impression that we 11 wouldn't get to a -- a cost or a cost benefit 12 justified standard level for those products. In - 13 - in other words, energy savings that would 14 justify the cost. 15 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 16 MR. ADIN: In the most general sense. 17 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 18 MR. ADIN: But certainly that could 19 change. I mean, we just don't have enough data. 20 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. Okay. Okay. 21 MR. ADIN: So. 22 MR. BROOKMAN: Do you have more slides?

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 79 1 MR. ADIN: So we do. They're getting a 2 little more into the metric -- 3 (Off the record) 4 MR. ADIN: -- issues but. 5 MR. BROOKMAN: Meg. Oh, Steve. 6 (Off the record) 7 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Well, I -- I -- again, 8 just in, you know, this -- this, again, falls back 9 into the scope. Right now the scope is above one 10 horsepower. And it seems like a lot of 11 circulators are under one horsepower. 12 So again, that -- again, depending on 13 the inclusion, that spills over into other aspects 14 of the scope. 15 MR. BROOKMAN: Correct. 16 MR. ROSENSTOCK: So. 17 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. Meg. 18 MS. WALTNER: So -- sorry. This sort of 19 takes us back to the slide and the metrics. So 20 you -- you said here we need the -- the last, the 21 weighted average electrical input power because it 22 captures all three categories.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 80 1 I'm wondering if you've considered 2 whether we could have different metrics by product 3 class. 4 MR. ADIN: So we have thought about 5 that. And that is, I think, in part possibly a 6 statutory issue which we might need to talk about 7 in a moment. 8 THE REPORTER: Say again. 9 MR. ADIN: So the question was whether 10 we can have -- well, I'll do it from here -- but 11 whether we could have been looking at that bottom 12 row there where it says "weighted average electric 13 input power." That's saying that we would have 14 the same metric for each of those three 15 configurations of products. 16 The question was whether we could have 17 different metrics for each one. And essentially 18 where there -- okay, so we're looking at that. 19 That's -- 20 MS. WALTNER: Okay. 21 MR. ADIN: This is a more complicated 22 question unfortunately than --

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 81 1 MS. WALTNER: Yeah. No. 2 MR. ADIN: Yeah. 3 MS. WALTNER: But I think that'd be 4 something -- 5 MR. ADIN: It's a good question. 6 MS. WALTNER: -- that we would want to 7 consider. 8 MR. ADIN: And we have looked at that in 9 the past. And I think we're just making sure -- 10 (Off the record) 11 MR. BROOKMAN: Could Steve follow on -- 12 MR. ADIN: Yeah. 13 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock. 14 Yeah, it's done for other products. You know, 15 there -- there are certain products, there are 16 heating products are rated at COP or HSPF or AFUE 17 depending on the type of product. They're all 18 heating products but they have different metrics. 19 MR. ADIN: True. 20 MR. ROSENSTOCK: They're different and - 21 - and within -- and there's different efficiency 22 standards in the same product class, like

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 82 1 residential water heaters. Now they're -- 2 depending on the gallon capacity, there's two 3 different equations, there's two different 4 standards. 5 So it's not different metrics for 6 different product classes -- 7 MR. ADIN: Right. 8 MR. ROSENSTOCK: -- are not -- have been 9 done before. 10 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. 11 MR. ADIN: So absolutely we could set 12 different standard levels for all these different 13 product classes. And, you know, I -- I fully 14 expect that the analysis will show that we have to 15 for it to be -- to justify, you know, all our -- 16 our statutory provisions as far as cost benefit 17 and all that. I mean, that's the way it would 18 work for -- for these, as for any other product. 19 The metric though is the really 20 important part. And you're absolutely correct in 21 that some products do have different metrics for 22 different classes and whatnot. Some of those were

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 83 1 set by statute. 2 So that's, you know, outside of our 3 authority anyway. But I -- I think we're still 4 looking at what we can actually do ourselves. So 5

-- 6 (Off the record) 7 MR. ADIN: -- we'll try and answer that 8 in a moment. 9 (Off the record) 10 MR. ADIN: Yeah. 11 MR. HANDZEL: Xylem, Mark Handzel again. 12 Just a quick clarification. I'm not quite clear 13 what weighted average electric input power is. I 14 mean, the -- the industry, we would measure what 15 we call "wire to water efficiency." 16 MR. ADIN: Right. 17 MR. HANDZEL: Which would take into 18 account the overall efficiency of all the devices 19 together. 20 MR. ADIN: And that's what this would 21 be. When we're talking about a weighted average, 22 we're talking about a weighted average over --

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 84 1 MR. HANDZEL: A load profile. 2 MR. ADIN: -- different load points. 3 MR. HANDZEL: Okay. 4 MR. ADIN: A load profile. Right. So 5 that you could reflect the -- the energy 6 consumption of something like a motor with a -- a 7 variable speed drive over a varying load profile. 8 MR. HANDZEL: Yeah, it's not electric 9 input. 10 MR. ADIN: I know. It's -- 11 MR. HANDZEL: It -- it doesn't clarify 12 it, so I just think we need to work on that term. 13 So I just leave it -- 14 MR. ADIN: Oh, absolutely. This -- this 15 was really just for general discussion purposes -- 16 (Off the record) 17 MR. ADIN: Yeah. 18 MR. HUBER: It's very difficult to -- to 19 come up with a load profile because every system 20 is different. You really don't know what the load 21 profile is until you get there, until you actually 22 plug the pump in and run it because these are not

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 85 1 standard off-the-shelf systems. 2 These are buildings. They're all 3 designed differently. You don't know how the 4 contractor ran the piping, what size he used, what 5 the engineer designed. He may have designed some 6 to last 30 or 40 years which means your friction 7 losses in the pipe are not the same as they would 8 be if you actually designed it for today's use. 9 I mean, we see this every day. So it is 10 very difficult to come up with a -- with a load 11 profile. You can get a -- a snapshot but it may 12 not be accurate. 13 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 14 MR. HUBER: One of the things that we 15 looked at in the Hydraulic Institute was just -- 16 if you're going to judge something, just judge it 17 on -- on a -- we -- we used 100, 75, and 50 18 percent. 19 And we just said, well, this -- so much 20 time we're going to do it this way and this much 21 and this much, whether it's 50 percent at -- at a 22 hundred percent or whatever it is. And we just --

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 86 1 we just made it arbitrary because then you can 2 judge everybody exactly the same. Because you're 3 not going to be able to get -- and their load 4 profiles are totally different from one 5 application to another. 6 MR. BROOKMAN: Go ahead, Steve. 7 MR. HUBER: So it'd be very difficult to 8 do this. And I doubt -- 9 (Off the record) 10 MR. HUBER: -- ever going to be able to 11 come up with this. 12 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock. 13 Yeah, that -- that's the approach that's taken 14 with -- at ASHRAE for large centrifugal chillers. 15 It's an integrated part load value or integrated 16 energy efficiency ratio where they assume certain 17 percentage of time at certain loads on the system. 18 So -- 19 MR. ADIN: Right. 20 MR. ROSENSTOCK: -- that's been done 21 with other products. 22 MR. ADIN: Right. Another analogous

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 87 1 example is -- is the SEER rating used for air 2 conditioners come out of the EER. EER is just one 3 rating point. SEER takes into account seasonal 4 use, different load values, all that. 5 So, yeah, this could be accounted for 6 but that's a test -- that's actually a test 7 procedure question. And so we will -- we'd 8 established some kind of representative load 9 profile and use that as a basis for comparison, 10 but. 11 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's -- let's proceed to 12 the next slide. 13 MR. ADIN: Okay. So -- so I mean, these 14 things get a little bit more into the testing 15 questions. We can't -- 16 MR. BROOKMAN: Which we need to do. 17 MR. ADIN: Which we need to do. And -- 18 and so that's -- actually, it's convenient that 19 Doug pushed us to move onto this because -- and, 20 you know, Al asked the question about load 21 profiles. 22 Now we're -- we're really getting more

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 88 1 into the test procedure issue because that -- 2 that's such a critical piece of determining how 3 we're going to proceed forward. 4 And I think it's worthwhile discussing 5 it at this stage because there's a lot of analysis 6 that we'd like to be able to do in the near term, 7 you know, whether it's before the next meeting or 8 the one after that. And it doesn't seem apparent, 9 at least today, that we're going to have a draft 10 test procedure any time in the next few months. 11 So I think the question for the group 12 here is what can we use as a basis for -- and 13 there are certain members I understand that are 14 probably better able to answer this than others, 15 but what -- what at least can we use as a basis 16 for -- of assumption for the purposes of 17 conducting our analysis as to how these products 18 that we're considering covering would be tested in 19 advance of having a test procedure that we're 20 actually going to use. 21 So if anyone has thoughts on that, I'd 22 be interested --

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 89 1 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. 2 MR. ADIN: -- to hear. 3 MR. HUBER: Why don't you -- I'll be 4 right back with you. 5 MR. ADIN: Okay. 6 MR. HUBER: You recognize people that 7 ask questions. 8 MR. ADIN: Okay. Yeah, Al. 9 MR. HUBER: I'd like for Greg -- he's -- 10 he sits on the committee that's -- that's helping 11 to write these things, so I think we know we're 12 not that far away. 13 MR. ADIN: Uh-huh. 14 MR. HUBER: So I -- I would like for 15 Greg to address it, if he would. 16 MR. CASE: Greg Case, Hydraulic 17 Institute. We -- we have been working on a test 18 standard. We call it "40.6." We have one of the 19 DOE consultants helping with that, so she's been 20 working with the group to do -- to get this 21 standard in place. 22 That standard applies to the Lot 11

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 90 1 units that we were originally scoping here. It -- 2 it would not cover integrated product. It is 3 right now in its final committee voting and it 4 will go out for what we call "a standard voting 5 rep ballot" before our annual meeting which is in 6 February. 7 And, Charlie, correct me if I'm wrong on 8 any of this stuff, I was -- I was told today that 9 we might be able to provide that draft to you when 10 it goes out for the SVR ballot. 11 MR. ADIN: Uh-huh. 12 MR. CASE: So that would speed up your 13 access to it probably by about two months. So -- 14 MR. ADIN: Okay. 15 MR. CASE: -- that might -- that might 16 help things along. So it would be late January 17 that you would receive that draft. 18 MR. BROOKMAN: I was doing a procedural 19 thing. Would you repeat what it is that you're 20 going to release? 21 MR. CASE: It is -- 22 MR. BROOKMAN: Or you have the potential

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 91 1 to release. 2 MR. CASE: It is our standard 40.6, 3 which is the -- the test standard for bare pump 4 testing for what we would consider the Lot 11 5 group of pumps. 6 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. 7 Gary. 8 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary Fernstrom, 9 California IOU's. So, Greg, I have a question for 10 you. The test standard that HI has been working 11 on simplistically stated sets some load on the 12 pump or some combination of loads in terms of flow 13 and head. Then I presume it measures the shaft 14 brake horsepower input required to achieve that 15 water flow at those head levels. 16 So basically the efficiency, while it 17 may be taken at different load points, is a water18 to- shaft mechanical horsepower efficiency. 19 Right? 20 MR. CASE: Correct. 21 MR. FERNSTROM: So what would be the 22 difference if products are being sold through

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 92 1 channels in an integrated form of pump and motor 2 if instead of measuring the shaft horsepower for 3 those products we just measure the electrical 4 input in 5 KW? 6 It doesn't seem to me like that's rocket 7 science or such a leap of engineering that it 8 couldn't pretty simplistically be done as a 9 modification to that well-thought-out test 10 procedure. 11 (Off the record) 12 MR. BROOKMAN: Go ahead. 13 MR. ADIN: I -- I don't have a -- 14 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie. 15 MR. CAPPELLINO: Charlie Cappellino, 16 ITT. The -- there's a lot of challenges associated 17 with measuring electrical power. I think the -- 18 the industry as a whole has chosen the -- the 19 method that Greg described because it's -- it's -- 20 it's -- frankly, it's the best way to understand 21 the efficiency of the hydraulic unit itself, the 22 pump itself, the bare pump.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 93 1 I've been in business a long time, and - 2 - and I've -- I've seen cases where people try and 3 do what you described and it's challenging. I 4 mean, you're right, it's not rocket science. But 5 getting the -- the electrical power measurement 6 and -- and looking at things, like power factor 7 and -- and, you know, the multiple phases and 8 everything else, I'm not -- I'm not trying to talk 9 you out of this, Gary, but I mean, it is -- it is 10 -- it is a more challenging approach. 11 And the other thing that I would put on 12 the table is when you measure the power input and 13 the -- and the hydraulic power output of the pump 14 itself, it -- it takes out this question of -- of 15 the driver, you know, whether you're operating it 16 with electric motor, diesel engine, you know, 17 steam turbine. 18 And that -- I think that's why the -- 19 the industry has, in general, gone in that 20 direction for product that is, what I call 21 "modular" in design, why you have the pump, and 22 you can put on any kind of prime mover, driver.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 94 1 I mean, that's kind of how we've evolved 2 as -- as an industry. And -- and frankly, we're 3 all set up to operate our -- our -- our facilities 4 that way. 5 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay. So -- 6 MR. CAPPELLINO: So. 7 MR. FERNSTROM: -- Charlie, this is -- 8 this is Gary again. I understand that. I -- I 9 imagine to a pump and water guy electricity is 10 pretty mysterious and scary but Steve and I work 11 in the electric industry. 12 MR. CAPPELLINO: Uh-huh. 13 MR. FERNSTROM: And I can tell you that 14 those pumps are pretty darn mysterious and scary. 15 MR. CAPPELLINO: Uh-huh. 16 MR. FERNSTROM: And the motors and 17 electrical measurement look pretty darn straight 18 forward to me. 19 So, you know, I -- I don't know how this 20 group is going to come to some sort of agreement 21 on this, but I can tell you, from my perspective, 22 measuring the electrical power input's a piece of

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 95 1 cake. 2 MR. BROOKMAN: Well, let me interject 3 here that regardless of how this group decides to 4 proceed, pathways that might be easier towards 5 testing would advance the work of this committee, 6 this working group. And -- and any ideas about 7 how, Greg, your -- your group can complete its 8 work, vet its work, make it available, how 9 existing protocols -- how they might relate to 10 subsequent protocols so that we can begin 11 analysis, how these pieces fit together, how they 12 evolve. 13 We need to do our very best to 14 anticipate that stuff so that we can begin to 15 think about realistically about a schedule among 16 other things. 17 Steve. 18 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Again, just -- just 19 going back to the slide, at the high level under 20 the bare pump. 21 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you for staying 22 there.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 96 1 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Trying. Testing 2 overview, that -- that -- that circle should only 3 be around the pump. And the motor is outside that 4 circle under the bare pump testing scenario. It's 5 a motor edge in our turbine. Again, I'm just -- 6 (Off the record) 7 MR. ROSENSTOCK: -- schematically. 8 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: On the lower 9 left. 10 MR. ROSENSTOCK: On the far left, the 11 circle should not be around the motor, it's only 12 around the pump. It's only around -- the circle 13 ends at the shaft basically. 14 MR. ADIN: Right. Just to clarify, the 15 purpose of that particular drawing was to indicate 16 that that's what you're physically testing. 17 To test the -- the pump itself, you'd 18 have a standardized motor that you'd use for the 19 test. Just so you can physically do -- 20 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Right. 21 MR. ADIN: -- the -- and that's what 22 that's depicting. Right.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 97 1 MR. ROSENSTOCK: But it -- it could -- 2 well, not -- not really. 3 (Off the record) 4 MR. BROOKMAN: You lost me there. 5 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Well, it's -- 6 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Someone clarify. 7 MR. ROSENSTOCK: -- it's something 8 that's driving the pump. Whether that's a 9 calibrated motor, a dynamometer, I mean, it -- but 10 right. Go ahead. 11 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Oh, I gotcha. 12 Okay. 13 Greg, go ahead. 14 MR. CASE: To -- to Gary's point, we - 15 - you know, we have pretty darn good test techs. 16 And they do know how to measure electrical power. 17 They're -- they're not -- not too scared of that. 18 Our issue becomes if we put a variable 19 frequency drive in front of this, to be able to 20 run this pump at various speeds, you can't measure 21 between the drive and the motor that electrical 22 power input anymore. So now you're -- you're

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 98 1 doing it on the -- the upstream side of the drive. 2 MR. FERNSTROM: Which is where we want 3 it done anyway. Thank you. 4 MR. CASE: Which -- which is great. 5 But we don't know the -- what the drive is doing 6 to the motor. Nobody knows that. Darmstadt is 7 actually looking at that right now. It -- it's 8 not -- 9 (Off the record) 10 MR. CASE: I mean, you -- you could 11 just say, okay, that's the efficiency of the total 12 package. 13 MR. FERNSTROM: Can -- can I interrupt 14 and accept your -- 15 MR. CASE: Okay. 16 MR. FERNSTROM: I accept it. But I'm 17 thinking of this in three product classes -- pump, 18 pump and motor, and drive. And I'm not suggesting 19 that it's -- it's simple to do a measurement where 20 you're including the drive and the operation. 21 By "drive," I -- I mean the variable 22 frequency drive.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 99 1 MR. CASE: Right. 2 MR. FERNSTROM: And the control that it 3 may operate. I'm not suggesting that's simple. 4 But it is simple to do the pump and motor 5 excluding drive. 6 And you sell a lot of products that are 7 -- come out the door and have SKUs and wind up on 8 Grainger shelf with pump and motor. And it is not 9 hard to put a power meter on the end of the motor 10 and measure the electrical power input. 11 So I'm focusing on this middle category, 12 not the more complicated case that -- that you're 13 talking about. 14 MR. CASE: I'm going to defer to one 15 of the -- the circulator manufacturers, but I 16 believe putting that high efficiency motor you're 17 talking about requires controls on the front end 18 of it. 19 It's not going to be just putting in 20 three leads and -- and measuring the power on 21 those three leads. 22 MR. FERNSTROM: It requires controls

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 100 1 because that's the way some of the manufacturers 2 make it. But in principle that PM motor does not 3 require a control. 4 MR. ADIN: So just to clarify, Gary, 5 you're saying that that motor could be operated 6 without a control and could be tested in that 7 manner? 8 MR. FERNSTROM: Or it could be tested 9 under some defined setting of the control where 10 you're not trying to deal with the variability of 11 the load and -- and so on. 12 MR. ADIN: Understood. I think the only 13 aspect to add to that, at least from DOE's 14 perspective, is that the test, as it would be for 15 any other product, that we're looking for ideally 16 should be as representative as possible of the 17 intended end use of that product. 18 So if it's designed and intended to be 19 used with a drive and it's supposed to be operated 20 that way, in principle, the test really should 21 reflect that kind of operation. 22 MR. FERNSTROM: I -- I agree. But at

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 101 1 this point in the development of the test 2 procedure, or for that matter looking into the 3 future, it's going to be -- and I agree with HI -- 4 really challenging to try and determine what the 5 operating conditions are such that -- that that 6 control can be utilized. 7 So you can do something short of that in 8 a test which captures the savings associated with 9 the better motor by simply limiting the control 10 effect or -- or not considering it. 11 MR. ADIN: Uh-huh. Yeah, I guess my 12 question would be in using a test like that, would 13 the rating metric provide information to consumers 14 who are purchasing these pumps that's useful in 15 making a purchasing decision on the basis of how 16 they're going to use the pump? 17 MR. FERNSTROM: Yes, it would. Because 18 it would say regardless of how you use it, 19 regardless of what control mechanism is 20 implemented, just by going to the better motor 21 you're saving this much energy or you've improved 22 the pump motor efficiency by 20, 30 percent.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 102 1 MR. ADIN: Right. 2 MR. FERNSTROM: Regardless of how you 3 use it. 4 MR. ADIN: But that's on the -- just on 5 the basis of the conditions under which it's 6 tested. I think which those are, you know, 7 testing related issues that I'm sure -- 8 MR. FERNSTROM: Well -- 9 MR. ADIN: -- we're going to talk more 10 about. But it -- it's just a point that I thought 11 I'd raise because it's -- 12 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. 13 MR. ADIN: -- come up with other 14 products. 15 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's go to -- let's move 16 on. 17 Chuck. 18 MR. POWERS: Yeah, a couple questions 19 and then I want to talk about motors for a second 20 because we actually manufacture motors. 21 I think, first off, I'll talk about what 22 Charlie brought up, you know, the laminations, how

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 103 1 many of them, motors are not a perfect exactly 2 XKW, right, they all -- every one of them have a 3 little different variance between them all. 4 The standards of the motors -- I'm 5 talking about Lot 11, right -- and -- and they 6 vary. And I think what Charlie was trying to 7 relate to the -- the different factors and the 8 motors and a lot of different issues, when we do a 9 test, you get a certified motor curve so you know 10 exactly what you're dealing with. 11 So what Greg's talking about, you take 12 the wires and do all that kind of stuff. And I've 13 been on the test end and run them. There's a lot 14 of variables with those motors, right. 15 So I'm not trying to say, no, and just - 16 - we have to make sure we have understanding of 17 where that's going. Right. 18 The second point I want to ask is, if 19 we're only talking Lot 11 -- and I don't know if 20 the data's available over there, you know, 21 because, you know, I have our data but I don't 22 know what theirs is -- how many variable speed

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 104 1 drives do we have in Lot 11? 2 Because if the percentage is X, is it -- 3 is -- is it -- is it a factor we need to take into 4 this? I'm not talking about circulators. Because, 5 you know, I -- you know, what you're bringing up, 6 no argument, right. But go -- sorry, when you go 7 to Lot 11, how many -- I don't have the number, 8 but how many are out there in industry that are 9 purchased as -- as VFD drives? Right. 10 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. 11 MR. POWERS: So. 12 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary, you want to -- 13 MR. FERNSTROM: This -- this is Gary. 14 I'm -- I'm trying to steer around the variable 15 speed drive issue and just focus on the pump and 16 motor. 17 MR. BROOKMAN: Mark, go ahead. 18 MR. HANDZEL: Well, I -- I just -- you 19 know, Doug, we keep -- Greg was talking about 20 where we're at with our -- our -- our test 21 certification preparation primarily focusing on 22 the pumps defined as being in Lot 11.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 105 1 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. 2 MR. HANDZEL: And -- and Gary took us 3 back into the circulator issue with the integrated 4 motor. So we're -- we're -- we're just talking 5 apples and oranges. And we -- I think part of our 6 problem is is we're still trying to mix these 7 together. 8 MR. BROOKMAN: Uh-huh. 9 MR. HANDZEL: So I -- I just -- you 10 know, Greg did start out by saying that we do not 11 have a circulator test standard at this point. 12 You know, our committee recognizes that 13 we need to develop one and that's one of the 14 things on our plate to get started on. 15 MR. BROOKMAN: Uh-huh. 16 MR. HANDZEL: But again, Greg's saying 17 one thing and Gary's taking it to circulators 18 where we've already said we don't have a test 19 standard. 20 MR. BROOKMAN: Uh-huh. 21 MR. HANDZEL: So -- 22 MR. CASE: Well --

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 106 1 MR. HANDZEL: -- we just -- we just got 2 to make sure we're keeping this straight. 3 MR. CASE: Gary suggested that we 4 might extend the HI test procedure that's being 5 developed by simply measuring the power input to 6 the motor where pumps are sold with motors. 7 I mean, why -- in order to do what you 8 guys are doing, you have to take the motor off. 9 You know, you're -- you're not measuring the motor 10 you sell with the pump. You're putting a standard 11 motor on, like Charles just said, a certified 12 motor, which is a dynamometer, and you're 13 measuring the -- 14 MR. HANDZEL: Correct. 15 MR. CASE: -- the shaft input. Well, 16 how about if we just take the product off the 17 shelf, the one that you sell with the motor you 18 put on it, and we measure the electrical power 19 that goes into the motor? 20 MR. BROOKMAN: Go ahead, Mark. 21 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel from Xylem. 22 So -- so, Gary, I think, you know, when you look

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 107 1 at a -- you know, call it a circulator, pump-in-a2 box type combination, typically many of us sell 3 those where the impellers are never trimmed. 4 There's never any different horsepower. Nothing's 5 ever changed. 6 So that certainly applies in a 7 circulator type product category. The products in 8 Lot 11 are -- are typically, you know, we have 9 said we sell them with motors, we sell them 10 without motors, we sell them some with drives, you 11 know. The impellers are always -- you know, have 12 a wide variety of different impeller trims it can 13 be sold with. 14 So it's not a pump in a box. You know, 15 it's - - it's typically selected to a specific 16 operating point and we will adjust it to make sure 17 that we can perform to that point. 18 MR. FERNSTROM: Are you telling me that 19 when I go down to Grainger and buy a certain SKU, 20 a two horsepower pump with a motor on it, that I 21 may get a different pump on, you know, one shelf 22 versus the one that sits directly behind it? I --

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 108 1 I don't understand that. 2 MR. HANDZEL: No, that's not what I 3 said, Gary. I -- what I was saying is is that in 4 that case you'd already defined what -- what 5 operating parameter you want that pump to perform 6 at. And so Grainger or somebody selected a pump 7 to provide that. 8 MR. FERNSTROM: No, no. But in -- and 9 your testing, the way HI does it, you -- you know, 10 you're going to take that pump product and look at 11 it with a European approach at 75, 100, 125 12 percent load, and you're going to come up with 13 some pump efficiency. 14 Well, how about we do the same thing 15 only we measure the electrical power input at 75, 16 100, 125 percent. That's not such a big deal. 17 I've got a watt meter. And there you go. You 18 know, you have the wire to water of the combined 19 product -- the pump and motor. 20 Let's not bother with the variable speed 21 -- speed drives yet. That's complicated. 22 MR. BROOKMAN: I -- I've yet to hear, I

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 109 1 don't believe, about why this isn't feasible, why 2 what he's suggesting isn't feasible. 3 GREG TOWSLEY: Doug, I just tried to 4 clarify. We're talking about two different things 5 here. 6 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah, okay. 7 GREG TOWSLEY: So that's all I can say. 8 I -- I don't think it's worth further debating. I 9 can't -- I can't debate whether it's feasible or 10 not. 11 MR. BROOKMAN: Uh-huh. 12 GREG TOWSLEY: But all I know is we're 13 talking about two different types of products. 14 (Off the record) 15 MR. POWERS: And I agree. And Chuck 16 Powers from Flowserve again. You know, we talked 17 about this earlier. 18 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: What did -- what 19 are the -- 20 MR. POWERS: The motor -- the motor -- 21 (Off the record) 22 MR. FERNSTROM: What are the two

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 110 1 different types of product? 2 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. Chuck, keep going. 3 Were you finished? 4 MR. POWERS: I -- I didn't -- I didn't 5 mean to interrupt. 6 (Off the record) 7 MR. BROOKMAN: You're next in the queue. 8 You want to keep going? 9 MR. POWERS: I think -- I think we spoke 10 earlier and -- and we're trying to clarify. I 11 don't remember who brought it up but -- maybe Al 12 did -- that there is a standard for motors. You 13 know, we all don't use the same motor that goes 14 out there every day. 15 And right there, there's, I don't know, 16 hundreds but there's -- there's quite a few motor 17 manufacturers. And the EC's right, the specs 18 defined. Sometimes specifically the motor, right, 19 in a lot more detail and sometimes pretty general. 20 Right. Not all of them are tested when they go 21 out the door. 22 Some customers, you know, assume the

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 111 1 motor's going to meet a certain spec and the 2 pump's going to achieve certain things and they 3 don't -- they don't expect a certified test or 4 anything else that goes out the door. 5 So there's a lot of variables involved 6 when you say, you know, test the -- the wire and 7 the water, so to speak, on the unit. You know, 8 it's up to the customer on what they require and - 9 - and the variables that go with it. Right? 10 There's a lot of different -- 11 MR. FERNSTROM: I'm -- I'm not talking 12 about the products that are specified by the 13 customer. When the refrigerator goes out the door 14 from the refrigerator plant, that's it. You get 15 what you get, you know. 16 And when the pump goes out the door that 17 winds up on the shelf at Grainger, you get what 18 you get. The manufacturer has chosen a motor, 19 couples it to the pump, sells it as an integrated 20 unit, and there it is. 21 MR. POWERS: And I -- and Gary, again, 22 Chuck Powers, Flowserve, Lot 11 is not a pump in a

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 112 1 box. 2 MR. FERNSTROM: Well -- 3 (Off the record) 4 MR. POWERS: We're -- we're trying -- 5 I'm not arguing with you about what you're asking 6 about a pump in a box at Grainger. 7 MR. FERNSTROM: So I -- 8 MR. POWERS: Grainger, you know, a Lot 9 11, you know, would not. 10 MR. BROOKMAN: Joanna, you want to get 11 in here? 12 JOANNA MAUER: Joanna Mauer. I thought 13 that maybe I could try to explain what we see as 14 two potential energy saving opportunities of going 15 beyond the bare shaft pump. 16 So the first is circulators, which we've 17 talked a lot about and I think has Gary has 18 explained. We think there's an opportunity for 19 energy savings just from going to a more efficient 20 motor and then there'd be additional opportunities 21 with controls. 22 The other potential energy savings

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 113 1 opportunity that we see is applying VSDs with 2 induction motors. And I think HI's explained to us 3 very well that that's a huge potential 4 opportunity. 5 And it's certainly an open question 6 whether there's a role for standards or role for 7 standards at this point in -- in getting at that 8 savings opportunity. 9 But, you know, I think potentially you 10 could set a standard where if -- if you're a pump 11 manufacturer and you're selling a pump with a 12 motor, the standard could effectively require that 13 you also sell a VSD as a package. 14 And I think our sense is that this 15 potential approach would only be appropriate in a 16 market segment where today pump manufacturers 17 generally sell the pump with the motor. Because 18 we understand that, you know, if you applied this 19 approach to a market segment where today it's 20 common to sell the pump and motor separately, then 21 if you had a standard that effectively required 22 that a pump and motor also be sold with a VSD, you

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 114 1 just further encourage people to buy the -- the 2 two components separately. 3 And so I think our initial thought was 4 that, you know, we had heard that in the lower 5 horsepower range, you know, below, say, 10 or 20 6 horsepower, that it's pretty common for pump 7 manufacturers to sell those pumps with motors. 8 And I look -- I'd be interested in 9 hearing more about whether that's the case or not. 10 But it's -- also I think any data that DOE has 11 gathered at this point about different market 12 segments and -- and whether pumps are sold as bare 13 shaft pumps or pumps with motors, I think would -- 14 would help to answer that question about, is there 15 an opportunity for some market segment to set a 16 standard that would drive sales of -- of packages 17 that include a VSD. 18 So I think I do -- I agree with your 19 point, Mark, that I think circulators and -- is a 20 separate topic from kind of extended products for 21 other -- other pump types. 22 MR. BROOKMAN: I feel like we're

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 115 1 starting to kind of go in circles here. And -- 2 and -- and I'm wondering what to do about it 3 because it seems like there are aspects of what's 4 being said that have relevance maybe and that 5 maybe they're of -- I'm thinking that maybe it's 6 about time for us to move on. 7 MR. ADIN: Well -- 8 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve. 9 MR. ADIN: Oh, go ahead, Steve. 10 MR. ROSENSTOCK: I'm sorry. And I -- I 11 would suggest at some point that maybe we do a 12 couple of non-binding straw votes to see the sense 13 of the committee at this point after the -- for 14 example, one of the straw votes would be bare 15 pump, bare pump and motor -- 16 (Off the record) 17 MR. BROOKMAN: I think it's -- 18 (Off the record) 19 MR. ROSENSTOCK: It's a scoping issue 20 but we have to decide on the scope. Otherwise, 21 we're just going to keep going round in circles 22 and circles.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 116 1 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. 2 MR. ROSENSTOCK: And more circles. 3 MR. ADIN: So if I could, just to offer 4 a sense of where I -- I think DOE would stand on 5 this particular issue at this point. 6 And getting back to the original 7 question we asked about, with respect to testing I 8 think that, for our purposes, has largely been 9 answered by what Greg said, that there's a good 10 chance we're going to see a draft test method in 11 the near term, which would be very helpful. 12 So that -- that kind of answers that 13 question I think as far as our concerns regarding 14 timing on test-related issues. 15 But more broadly, when it comes to 16 scope, my impression is that it seems like we 17 don't really have quite enough data to say how 18 feasible, at least if we were going to go beyond a 19 pump less motor, how feasible that really is at 20 this standpoint. 21 We need -- there's probably some more 22 data we need to gather before the next meeting

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 117 1 that'll -- that'll inform us of that. 2 But, I mean, I'm sure we all have an 3 opinion about it. And we can, at least based on 4 each of our individual understandings of how the 5 market works, to say -- 6 MR. BROOKMAN: Do -- 7 MR. ADIN: -- what we feel about it. 8 MR. BROOKMAN: Do you have additional 9 slides that you wish to present -- 10 MR. ADIN: I do. 11 MR. BROOKMAN: -- at this time? 12 MR. ADIN: So, I mean, they kind of get 13 into more the specific issues of testing that I 14 don't know that we necessarily need to get into 15 today. 16 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 17 MR. ADIN: So it just kind of goes 18 through the options of how these things will be 19 tested. But again, I think that's a little beyond 20 what we really wanted to talk about at this 21 particular stage. Yeah. 22 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 118 1 MR. FERNSTROM: I have just one last 2 high level comment. Regardless of the European 3 lots, I don't think we ought to exclude from 4 consideration pumps, relatively low horsepower 5 pumps, that are sold with motors off the shelf. 6 MR. BROOKMAN: Uh-huh. 7 MR. FERNSTROM: I don't believe those 8 ought to be excluded from our consideration. And 9 I don't think it's that big a stretch to take the 10 current proposed test standard and substitute for 11 the mechanical power the measured electrical power 12 drawn by the motor that is sold with that product 13 in the market. 14 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary, I was wondering 15 with what I've heard from manufacturers as they 16 refer to this as apples and oranges, is thinking 17 about circulators kind of in sequence, that the 18 scope of this negotiation perhaps would not 19 include circulators and they would be handled as a 20 separate rule-making matter, or they -- they're 21 seeing them in the context of Lot 11 and being 22 prepared to deal with Lot 11.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 119 1 I was wondering how you feel about that. 2 MR. FERNSTROM: That's -- I think you've 3 correctly characterized the position. We're 4 talking about losing years of opportunity here for 5 a product that's in market, been in the market for 6 a long time, has a significant energy impact, and 7 isn't that difficult to accommodate. It's not as 8 difficult as it's sounding. 9 MR. BROOKMAN: The folks that are -- 10 that seem to be in the position to write this 11 standard seem to think it's pretty difficult to 12 write the test procedure. 13 MR. FERNSTROM: Yeah, and I can't 14 understand why. 15 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 16 MR. STARR: This is Louis Starr. And 17 yeah, I mean, I get the feeling that there's been 18 an acceptance of Lot 11. And there isn't an 19 impetus to develop a test standard because they 20 don't -- the same reason we don't have information 21 on circulators, they don't want to be regulated 22 because we provide the information that would

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 120 1 allow the regulation to happen. 2 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. 3 MR. STARR: I -- I guess my point of 4 view is we should look at what the opportunities 5 are. And DOE's developed a test procedure that's 6 -- some of the staff they have down here is 7 technical staff. So use technical staff to develop 8 a test procedure for what Gary's talking about. 9 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. 10 MR. STARR: And so I don't think it 11 should be based upon what industry has available 12 right now. If -- if there's a -- if there's an 13 incentive not to develop a test procedure, then, 14 of course, you wouldn't want to develop one if you 15 didn't want there to be a test procedure. 16 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. So I just -- 17 MR. STARR: It's circular. 18 MR. BROOKMAN: -- a moment ago described 19 what I think I've heard from industry surrounding 20 circulator pumps, that kind of logic of separating 21 it and dealing with it separately. 22 And so hearing what I think I've heard

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 121 1 from the advocacy folks is that, gee, it ought to 2 be easy enough to just measure electrical input. 3 And -- and then what I have not heard from anybody 4 else in this room is why that's not feasible. 5 Bob. 6 MR. BARBOUR: Bob Barbour from TACO. 7 One of the things -- I don't want to repeat 8 everything that we said yesterday. 9 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. Right. 10 MR. BARBOUR: But I don't -- I think 11 we're sort of falling back into that same loop of 12 -- of -- 13 MR. BROOKMAN: I'm hoping -- 14 MR. BARBOUR: -- doing that. 15 MR. BROOKMAN: -- we can move beyond 16 that, Bob. 17 MR. BARBOUR: And so was I. But 18 apparently, we don't seem to be able to. 19 MR. BROOKMAN: Uh-huh. Oh, but we're 20 not clarifying -- you know, it doesn't seem like 21 we're taking the next step. We're just repeating 22 the same statements.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 122 1 MR. BARBOUR: I'm -- I'm -- and I'm 2 trying to avoid that. 3 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah, okay. 4 MR. BARBOUR: However, I don't -- I 5 don't believe that, you know, when you start 6 looking at circulators, for example, I don't 7 believe that we, as a group, understand a load -- 8 load profile. 9 I don't believe we understand the 10 application of the product necessarily as far as 11 to -- to prove whether or not there is the energy 12 savings that -- that Gary thinks there is. 13 MR. BROOKMAN: We don't have the data. 14 (Off the record) 15 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: -- himself asked 16 yesterday for the data. 17 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah, we don't have the 18 data. 19 MR. BARBOUR: And we don't have it. 20 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. Okay. 21 MR. BARBOUR: So for us to be able to 22 sit here and say, yes, this is -- this is correct

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 123 1 or incorrect, is -- is really not proper. 2 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary, before you do -- 3 wait. I think we asked this question yesterday, 4 and our consultants said they had data from two 5 manufacturers. 6 Is -- this morning I believe it was Al 7 said that he believes that at least three 8 manufacturers said that they submitted this data. 9 And I'm wondering, irrespective, is 10 there -- we left this with an open question 11 yesterday -- is there a way to get this additional 12 data you're needing? 13 MR. WEINTRAUB: So, Dan Weintraub, 14 Navigant. Alison had said yesterday that she 15 didn't think there was enough to aggregate. We 16 went back and checked what we had. We have data 17 from three. And whether that's appropriate to -- 18 yeah, so we went back and checked, you're right -- 19 whether that's appropriate to aggregate is going 20 to be a question that we're going to have to work 21 through. 22 But, you know, as they stated already,

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 124 1 HI stated, there is a limited number of 2 manufacturers of circulators out there. And so 3 working with HI to collect that extra data, the -- 4 the data for the remaining industry, could be a -- 5 obviously a path forward to have the data. 6 MR. BROOKMAN: So that's great. And 7 then presumably if that could be done 8 expeditiously then you could gather that data, 9 aggregate that data, do what you need to do with 10 it, and make it available to the committee 11 members, the working group members, quickly. 12 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yeah. 13 MR. BROOKMAN: Before the next meeting 14 so they can all begin to do their own analyses. 15 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yes. But there are -- 16 you know, there are impediments to quickly 17 gathering data from any manufacturers. We have 18 not gone through legal -- 19 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. 20 MR. WEINTRAUB: -- agreements for non21 disclosure. 22 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. Okay. You want to

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 125 1 keep going, Bob. 2 MR. BARBOUR: This is Bob Barbour again. 3 One question that I have is Navigant's necessarily 4 understanding of the application of the product. 5 MR. BROOKMAN: Uh-huh. 6 MR. BARBOUR: And the control mechanisms 7 that are associated with the use circulators. 8 MR. BROOKMAN: You think they don't 9 understand the way it works properly? 10 MR. BARBOUR: I have my question, yeah, 11 that's 12

-- 13 MR. BROOKMAN: So you want to meet with 14 them and sort it out? Maybe you could -- 15 MR. BARBOUR: We've met with them 16 before. We'd be happy to meet with them again. 17 MR. BROOKMAN: Maybe you could do it 18 over lunch and just see what they understand and 19 don't understand. 20 MR. BARBOUR: Okay. 21 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. I'm serious. 22 Because let's -- let's make sure that everybody's

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 126 1 got the same level of understanding. And we don't 2 want everyone to be as ignorant as I am. 3 MR. BARBOUR: I wouldn't call you 4 ignorant. 5 MR. BROOKMAN: No, I promise you. 6 Louis. 7 MR. STARR: Yeah, Louis Starr with NEEA. 8 Would it be possible for the DOE technical staff 9 to look into this issue about how easy it is to do 10 what Gary's suggesting with that test procedure? 11 Is there someone that can answer this? 12 I mean, I guess Doug asked a couple 13 times, what exactly is it can't be done, there 14 isn't any answers. So can we get someone that's 15 either Navigant or someone else to look in this 16 and see is what he's talking about pie in the sky; 17 is it, he doesn't know what he's talking about; 18 can we get some kind of relevance on it? That's 19 the technical support that that would be looking 20 for. 21 MR. ADIN: Yes, the answer to that is 22 yes.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 127 1 MR. STARR: Okay. 2 MR. ADIN: We can do that. 3 MR. BROOKMAN: Do you have someone in 4 mind? 5 MR. ADIN: Yeah. 6 MR. BROOKMAN: Or you can find someone? 7 MR. ADIN: Yes. 8 (Off the record) 9 MR. BROOKMAN: So we can do that. I 10 want to get Mark and Al both here and then I'm 11 coming back to you, Gary. 12 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel from Xylem. 13 I -- I just wanted to -- to make it clear that, 14 from Xylem's perspective, we are not opposed to 15 circulator regulations. Okay. 16 So we're -- we're not -- you know, we're 17 not trying to stonewall this. We're not trying to 18 stall. What we're saying is we need some more 19 time to figure it out. 20 And -- and just furthermore, we think to 21 meet the timeline that's being proposed, the best 22 way to meet -- to have some achievable goals would

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 128 1 be to proceed without including circulators. 2 MR. BROOKMAN: Is Xylem or is the 3 industry at large, are you stuck on the pathway 4 for your current test method or might you be open 5 to a novel approach that would be easier to do and 6 could be maybe effectuated rather quickly? 7 MR. HANDZEL: I don't think we're stuck 8 on a test method. One of the things we found out 9 is every one of us has our own test method. 10 MR. BROOKMAN: Ah. 11 MR. HANDZEL: You know, so that's why we 12 need to get together and come -- 13 (Off the record) 14 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. That's 15 understandable. 16 MR. HANDZEL: Let Al expand upon it 17 further. 18 MR. HUBER: Doug, this is Al Huber. I 19 think we need to understand. What Gary's talking 20 about is an ECM motor. Correct? Gary, is that 21 correct? 22 MR. FERNSTROM: Yeah.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 129 1 (Off the record) 2 MR. FERNSTROM: My -- my interest is in 3 the ECM motor -- 4 MR. HUBER: Let -- 5 MR. FERNSTROM: -- putting aside the 6 complexity -- 7 MR. HUBER: I understand that. Now, let 8 me make sure everybody understands, that varies 9 the speed. So what load profile are we going to 10 use? That's the reason we all have a test standard 11 is because we don't really know how you're going 12 to operate. 13 MR. FERNSTROM: How -- 14 MR. HUBER: Do we -- 15 MR. FERNSTROM: How -- 16 MR. HUBER: Wait -- wait a minute. Now, 17 you talked plenty, Gary. Let somebody else talk 18 for a minute. 19 Are we going to say we're going to do it 20 at full speed and that's how we're going to judge 21 the efficiency? How are we going to do that? I 22 mean, you can effectively do the same thing with a

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 130 1 VFD. But you're requiring -- you're -- what you're 2 -- what you're wanting to do is require the pump 3 manufacturers only to manufacture their pump with 4 ECM motors. That's basically where he's headed. 5 MR. BROOKMAN: Let me ask you regarding 6 the test procedure application, if you have 7 variable speed motors, couldn't you simply say, as 8 a test protocol, we want you to hit these points? 9 Wouldn't that be a legitimate way to measure and 10 test? 11 MR. HUBER: It -- it would if you were - 12 - if you were -- yeah, it would. It would. 13 Honestly, it would. I'm not saying that it would 14 not. But that's the reason there is no test 15 standard because some people manufacture different 16 types of circulators. 17 MR. BROOKMAN: Uh-huh. 18 MR. HUBER: And they're not all with ECM 19 motors. 20 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 21 MR. HUBER: Now, right now the industry 22 is -- is moving rapidly to ECM motors. And most

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 131 1 of the major manufacturers are headed there anyway 2 because the market is driving it -- 3 (Off the record) 4 MR. HUBER: -- not -- not regulation. 5 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. 6 MR. HUBER: The market -- and I want to 7 say one thing. I want to make this very clear to 8 Louis, that Hydraulic Institute nor any of its 9 members are not trying to stonewall anything to do 10 with circulators. 11 We have never reported on circulators. 12 They're not part of our data stream. We don't 13 have the information. And we're not trying to 14 stonewall. The only people in this room that have 15 given any information on circulators are the pump 16 manufacturers. Period. 17 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Well -- 18 MR. HUBER: And we gave it to Navigant. 19 And quite frankly, Navigant didn't even ask the 20 right questions about circulators because they 21 didn't break it down by horsepower. They didn't 22 break it down by head and flow.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 132 1 So there's no way to know when the -- 2 even if they aggregate the information, you're 3 still not going to have the information you're 4 looking for. 5 MR. STARR: Well, part of it, you know, 6 it's just -- I did a literature research to see 7 who has this thing. And it's called circulators. 8 And there's Armstrong, Xylem, Grundfos, and TACO. 9 And there was only two information route and now 10 there's three. So there's at least one person 11 that hasn't provided information. 12 Now, admittedly only Xylem, Grundfos, 13 and TACO are here. So I assume that's probably 14 the three people that provided information. So 15 Armstrong though is a large manufacturer and, you 16 know, there 17

-- 18 (Off the record) 19 MR. HUBER: Well, if you take the three, 20 you have, in my opinion -- and I'm not one of 21 them, so I -- I'll express my opinion and you can 22 take it for what it's worth -- you'll have 90

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 133 1 percent of -- 80 to 90 percent of the marketplace. 2 MR. STARR: That seems like enough 3 information to aggregate -- 4 (Off the record) 5 MR. HUBER: Well, I'm just telling you - 6

- 7 MR. BROOKMAN: So that's -- 8 MR. HUBER: -- from my knowledge. 9 MR. BROOKMAN: -- that's useful. Okay. 10 So, hey, you know, I like this last 11 exchange. We gained some ground on that. We 12 gained some clarity. That was very useful. And 13 in that spirit, I'm going to reward you with a 14 break. 15 (Off the record) 16 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. It's now -- it's 17 now almost five minutes after 10:00. We've really 18 -- we've really started to gain ground here on 19 some of these really fundamental issues I believe. 20 It's almost five minutes after 10:00. 21 Let's take a 15-minute break. We'll resume at 22 10:20. And -- and we'll return to addressing the

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 134 1 issues on this list 10:20. 2 (Whereupon, at approximately 10:02 a.m. 3 the proceedings were in recess.) 4 MR. BROOKMAN: So let's resume. How 5 many joining us via the Net? Eight. Well, those 6 of you joining us via the Net, welcome. We hope 7 you're finding this productive. We're making 8 progress here, and we'll continue to do that as we 9 resume. 10 I'm looking at the list that we created 11 at the beginning of the day. We haven't finished 12 the ground rules yet, but that's going to take a 13 little more consideration of other issues. We 14 have made good progress discussing and clarifying 15 the scope, that's not done, but I wanted to move 16 now to the third item, which is "List of Data and 17 Analysis Needs" and see if we can get some 18 additional thoughts on what that would include. 19 Joanna? 20 MS. MAUER: I just wanted to ask a 21 question, which is whether those of us who are not 22 manufacturers and therefore we're not interviewed

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 135 1 by Navigant could see the list of questions that 2 was asked of manufacturers? 3 MR. BROOKMAN: The interview protocol or 4 whatever it is? 5 MS. MAUER: Yeah, the surveys. 6 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: The surveys. 7 MR. BROOKMAN: The survey. 8 But she just wants the template. 9 You just want the template, right? You 10 don't want the data. 11 MS. MAUER: Right. Right. Just the 12 questions. 13 MR. ADIN: Yeah. So I'll let the team 14 correct me if I'm wrong, but those survey 15 questions are normally included in the TSD when we 16 write one, so yes. 17 MS. MAUER: Okay, but you -- oh, okay. 18 MR. ADIN: We haven't published a TSD, 19 but, yes, we can provide that kind of information. 20 MS. MAUER: Okay. 21 MR. ADIN: We should be able to do that. 22 MS. MAUER: That would be great.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 136 1 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So do you want to 2 set this up because I'm not -- the list of data 3 and analysis needs, when I spoke with many of you 4 in writing the convening report for this 5 negotiation, you had some rather specific data 6 worries, or that is to say, how the data and 7 analysis that DOE typically does, how that kind of 8 function or functionality could make its way into 9 this negotiation. And I just want to have some 10 discussion surrounding -- that was mostly from the 11 advocates that I spoke with that are quite 12 familiar with the traditional DOE rulemaking 13 process. 14 So I just want to kick off this 15 conversation and see what you anticipate the data 16 analysis needs so we can get that as clear as 17 possible. 18 And, Joanna, I'm looking at you. Do you 19 want to start us off? 20 MS. WALTNER: Do you want -- 21 MR. BROOKMAN: Or Meg? Please. Yes. 22 MS. WALTNER: Well, I think as a

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 137 1 starting point, we would be interested in seeing 2 from DOE what you have broken up by pump type and 3 horsepower, then data on how pumps are sold by the 4 manufacturer, so whether they're sold as an 5 integrated product with a motor. If you have it, 6 it seems like there might be a middle category of 7 how pumps are sold, so there is the integrated 8 product but then sometimes also a manufacturer 9 supplying a pump and a motor together, but maybe 10 they're spec'ing the pump, the pump is not 11 actually attached to the motor when it's being 12 sold. 13 MR. BROOKMAN: It's shipped as an 14 independent pump. 15 MS. WALTNER: Right, being shipped 16 together with the motor, but not necessarily 17 attached together, and then pumps that are sold as 18 the bare pump end. 19 MR. BROOKMAN: It's a package, but it's 20 not connected, it's not at the factory. 21 MS. WALTNER: I don't even know if I 22 would go as far to say that it's a package, but

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 138 1 where you're selling -- yesterday you talked about 2 that you broadly -- that sometimes you'll get a 3 spec for a motor that you'll supply, but it may 4 not even be a motor that you're manufacturing, but 5 you'll supply both the pump and the motor to the 6 customer. Is that an accurate description? 7 MR. HUBER: That is correct. We do 8 supply motors that we do not manufacture. 9 MS. WALTNER: Right, and that aren't 10 necessarily attached to the pump when you're 11 supplying them. 12 MR. HUBER: Well, sometimes they are, 13 sometimes they're what we call remote coupled, but 14 they have a coupling between them, but they're on 15 a common base plate, so it depends on what you 16 mean by "attached." 17 MS. WALTNER: Okay. Well, I guess, so - 18

- 19 MR. BROOKMAN: Pardon me for 20 interrupting, Al. Most of what you ship is on a 21 common base plate, that is -- 22 MR. HUBER: Yeah.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 139 1 MR. BROOKMAN: -- this thing you ship, 2 these parts are well understood whether they're 3 connected up or whether they need to be wired 4 onsite or added the control mechanism. 5 MR. HUBER: Yeah, it's fairly 6 understood, but I think you need to be clear 7 because there are close coupled, which are 8 basically the motor shaft becomes the pump shaft. 9 MS. WALTNER: Okay. And so I think -- 10 MR. HUBER: There is that type. And 11 then there are various types, and all those are 12 shown in the Lot 11. The variations of those are 13 shown, if you go back to that slide and look at 14 it. But one of the things that you've got to do 15 is you've got to break horsepowers down, and I 16 know that or I honestly believe -- and I think 17 some of these other guys can tell you better than 18 I can -- is that when Navigant asked us 19 specifically -- let's go back to circulators 20 because that's been a topic of discussion, they 21 did not ask us to break it down by horsepower. So 22 therefore some of the things are sold and

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DOE- Commercial-Industrial Pumps Working Group 12-19-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 140 1 circulators go up to 1, 2, and 3 horsepower, which 2 are already being covered by Lot 11, by the way. 3 So the only thing is, those that are below that 4 are not being covered at this -- that's what we 5 suggested, at this point. So any analysis that 6 doesn't show horsepower and have it accurately 7 segregated is not going to be worthwhile. 8 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Meg, keep going. 9 MS. WALTNER: Yeah. So I completely 10 agree with your point there, Al, and what we're 11 asking for here to be clear is data and horsepower 12 bands and I think at this point, to whatever 13 granularity you have about how those pumps are 14 sold, we would like that data by pump type and 15 horsepower band. Then also by pump type and 16 horsepower band, we would like to see the unit 17 shipment data, the connected load, and whatever 18 you have in terms of an energy use estimate and/or 19 duty cycle estimate, which are related obviously. 20 So total energy use estimate for that pump type 21 and horsepower band. 22 MR. ADIN: Okay. I think that's all

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 141 1 pretty clear. The one item I wasn't clear on was 2 connected load. What did you mean by that? 3 MS. WALTNER: So the total kilowatt. 4 MR. ADIN: Oh, okay. 5 MS. WALTNER: Kilowatts installed by 6 pump type and horsepower band, so not the energy 7 use estimate that's projected based on whatever 8 your load profile is. 9 MR. ADIN: Okay. 10 MR. BROOKMAN: Go ahead, Steve. 11 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock. I 12 said this before, but, again, percentage of market 13 that's being of pumps, again, manufacturers might 14 not be able to do this since they're selling bare 15 pumps, number or percentage of pumps served driven 16 by gas or diesel engines or steam turbines, and 17 then again an estimate of overall capacity of 18 those drivers and possibly at least beginning 19 estimated annual energy use in BTUS or trillion 20 BTUs or whatever the fossil fuel metric is going 21 to be, again, just so -- and then hopefully, as a 22 comparison to see what percentage -- within

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 142 1 whatever scope of -- obviously, to get back to the 2 scope, within the scope of the products being 3 analyzed, because obviously, especially the 4 horsepower limit, will make a difference in terms 5 of the percentages and the energy usage. Thank 6 you. 7 MR. BROOKMAN: Other thoughts on data 8 and analysis needs? 9 Yes, Joanna. 10 MS. MAUER: This is getting a little 11 farther ahead, but as I said yesterday, I think 12 before we can actually start talking about 13 standard levels, it would be very useful to have 14 preliminary LCC and NIA results from DOE. 15 MR. ADIN: And I can elaborate on that 16 one a little bit based on what I've learned from 17 the team. Most of the data that we have that's 18 gone that far is limited to the Lot 11 and really 19 just the bare pump type stuff. So we might have 20 enough to provide at least some very preliminary 21 LCC and possibly even NIA numbers, well, hopefully 22 by the next meeting. That's a possibility. But

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 143 1 to the extent we can do that, we will. I'll put 2 it that way. 3 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. And when you say 4 supply by the next meeting, I hope that means, I 5 hope that means, that it will be supplied in 6 advance of the next meeting, it will be supplied 3 7 days, 5 days in advance, you know, at least plain 8 meeting for folks at a minimum. 9 MR. ADIN: I think -- so I'll just state 10 generally that when it comes to distribution of 11 data to the Working Group, it's not necessarily at 12 the meeting, we'll distribute it as early as we're 13 comfortable that the data is ready. So, yeah, 14 electronically in a SharePoint site or whatever it 15 is that we're using as a means of distribution. 16 MR. BROOKMAN: And just to be clear on 17 this -- Jeremiah, maybe this is you -- when data 18 becomes available, when analysis is ready for 19 distribution, will there be an e-mail blast that 20 says this stuff is now available on the 21 SharePoint? 22 MR. FREEMAN: Yeah.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 144 1 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Okay. 2 Joanna, yes. 3 MS. MAUER: If I could just ask a 4 clarifying question. So in the framework 5 document, DOE laid out a kind of preliminary 6 coverage proposal that was similar to Lot 11 but 7 included some additional pump types that are not 8 included in Lot 11. For example, the double 9 suction is one that we encouraged DOE to look at. 10 Do you have data or analysis for the same 11 horsepower range, but these other pump types that 12 are not included in Lot 11? 13 MR. ADIN: I can't tell you for sure. 14 That's honestly something that Alison would 15 probably have to answer, and unfortunately she's 16 not here, but I will check on that and get back to 17 you as soon as we can. I mean, certainly to the 18 extent that we have sufficient data to provide 19 that kind of analysis early on, we will, but we 20 may not have it. 21 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve. 22 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock. I'm

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 145 1 sorry to repeat myself from earlier, but again 2 percentage of pumps within the scope, whatever the 3 scope is, that are sold with integrated controls. 4 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Yeah. Other data 5 and analysis needs? 6 Al, do you have a question? 7 MR. HUBER: No, I was trying to 8 understand what he was saying. 9 MR. ROSENSTOCK: From the OEMs, from the 10 manufacturers, how many -- whatever the scope of - 11

- 12 MR. HANDZEL: Define "integrated," 13 though, Steve. 14 MR. ROSENSTOCK: What? 15 MR. HANDZEL: Define "integrated." 16 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Looking like that. I'm 17 sorry. It's in the package, that it's not a third 18 party putting the controls -- 19 MR. HANDZEL: It's a third party 20 variable speed drive or one that's built into a 21 motor by the pump manufacturer. That's what I was 22 trying to get a clarification.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 146 1 MR. ROSENSTOCK: That's shipped by the 2 manufacturer. Either way. 3 MR. HUBER: Well, I can say this, and I 4 think my memory serves correctly, that they did 5 ask for all those pumps that were in their 6 framework document from us. We provided that. 7 They also asked us, How many were sold bare pump? 8 How many were sold with motors? How many are sold 9 with something else? And how many are sold with 10 VSDs? Okay? 11 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: I got it. 12 MR. HUBER: So we gave them that. Now, 13 what they've done with it I cannot tell you. 14 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Hopefully they've 15 done something good with it. 16 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Aggregated result would 17 be helpful. 18 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. Okay. Okay. Do 19 you think we've covered it? 20 MR. ADIN: I think. I'll just make a 21 general statement and maybe this is already 22 implied by what I said earlier. So we will do our

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 147 1 best to supply all the data that everyone has just 2 described here, but we will also try to figure out 3 as early as possible what our constraints are, 4 like which data we just don't have. Some of it we 5 may have and we can put together aggregated data, 6 and that's fine, but we'll try and let everyone 7 here know what we're missing as early as possible 8 so we can collect it and make sure we try and have 9 some final products by next time. 10 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis. 11 MR. STARR: So I think we talked about 12 some of the technical questions, but the one was 13 in terms of modifying the test procedure to 14 account for motor efficiency. The other thing, I 15 think we need to maybe look in on the technical 16 side, and whoever is doing that other information, 17 is the thing when we talk about these circulators, 18 we're talking about single-phase and the 19 difference between PSC and ECM motors, and we're 20 thinking about just testing at 100 percent and 21 just establishing if there is going to be a 22 difference in the energy use of those two cases,

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 148 1 and that would be kind of what Gary is talking 2 about. So before we go any further, we just 3 establish that there is less energy usage between 4 those two cases. 5 MR. BROOKMAN: ECM and? 6 MR. STARR: PSC. 7 MR. BROOKMAN: PC. 8 MR. STARR: PSC. And just run them at 9 100 percent and see if there is a difference. And 10 it has to be single-phase power. 11 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Gary? 12 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary, California 13 IOUs. Let me elaborate on that. My experience 14 has been when you go from a pump powered by a 15 single- phase induction motor to a pump powered by 16 a permanent magnet ECM motor, run at the same 17 speed, run at full-load speed regardless of not 18 varying the speed, which you might have the 19 capability to do, the PM-ECM motor is 20 categorically better than the single-phase 21 induction motor. 22 So there are two opportunities here.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 149 1 One is to go at the same speed, like I just 2 alluded to, or vary the speed and gain the really 3 significant advantage of the affinity law of 4 benefits. We may not be in a place yet where we 5 can deal with what the load is in order to assess 6 the affinity law of benefits, but we can certainly 7 assess the full- speed, full-load benefits. So I 8 would like to see that done for fractional 9 horsepower motors, pumps, circulators, and for 10 single-phase products into the 1-, 2-, 3- 11 horsepower range. 12 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Louis. 13 MR. STARR: What that does is 14 essentially we know the unit is sold. You can 15 establish to some extent what the energy saved 16 would be associated with that. There are a few 17 assumptions that then would have to be made. But 18 anyway, it establishes what the opportunity for 19 federal or energy savings throughout the U.S. So 20 that's what we're getting at with that 21 information. 22 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Chuck.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 150 1 MR. POWERS: Without going too far with 2 this, in the European arena, they spent a lot of 3 time looking at all that, what Louis just brought 4 up. Okay? 5 MR. BROOKMAN: Speak louder, Chuck. 6 MR. POWERS: They've studied all that. 7 There has been reports on it. It's all published. 8 You can get access to it. And what they ended up 9 resolving was if the pump could be improved by X, 10 which was a very, very small amount. The 11 permanent magnet and the VFD far exceeded whatever 12 levels they wanted to try to achieve, so they 13 looked at it and said, "We're wasting our time," 14 because if you want to focus just on the pump, we 15 can get a little percent out of it, whatever, but 16 the permanent magnet is a combination with the VFD 17 drive because you have to run both, far exceed the 18 values they were looking for because that's the 19 way the market was leading. So why waste time on 20 that product because we're going to be there? 21 Now, you can get data again, they have a 22 lot of data that's there, and you can regurgitate

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 151 1 it. Now, granted, it's a bigger market, a lot of 2 different things, but I sometimes wonder, why add 3 it to the test standard if it's not going to add 4 value? 5 MR. FERNSTROM: Well -- this is Gary -- 6 I want to waste time on it because in my mind the 7 pump "is" the pump and the motor, it's not just a 8 pump. I agree with you, the opportunity of the 9 pump head alone is probably minimal, but looking 10 at the way we've defined this, I think, in the 11 single-phase, 1- , 2-, 3-horsepower product that 12 you sell as an integral product, the pump "is" the 13 pump and the motor. So if we can make an 14 improvement in the motor, we've made an 15 improvement in the pump. 16 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Louis. 17 MR. STARR: And actually Steve 18 Rosenstock can speak to this. 90.1, ASHRAE 90.1, 19 in 2013, the most recent standard, has basically 20 made fractional horsepower fan motors, they have 21 to be ECM motors. So I think ASHRAE determined 22 that there are some energy savings.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 152 1 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock. I 2 actually again for fan motors, they have to -- 3 well, depending -- for many applications of the 4 fan motors, anything above a 1/4-horsepower has to 5 have some sort of variable -- that would have to 6 be an ECM motor, it just has to have some sort of 7 control on the speed to save energy. I don't 8 believe they -- there might be one application 9 where they said ECM motors, but for a lot of other 10 fan applications, you have to go to Chapter 6. 11 I'm sorry. They have to have a drive above a 12 certain horsepower, and for one of the 13 applications, it's above 1/4, another application 14 it's 5-horsepower, but you look in there and 15 pretty much almost all fans are going to have to 16 have drive controls on them. Again, that's just 17 fans. 18 MR. STARR: Anyway, I think there are 19 some opportunities to certainly look at it. 20 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Mark? 21 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel, from Xylem. 22 Just again another one of those gray areas that

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 153 1 we're kind of getting into, but the motors that 2 you're describing are not necessarily widely 3 available for centrifugal pump usage. Okay? 4 MR. ROSENSTOCK: That's why I said fans. 5 So that's why I said fans. 6 MR. HANDZEL: So I hear what you're 7 saying, Louis. I hear what you're saying, Steve. 8 But certainly we're all making some or getting 9 some somewhere, but I can tell you that in U.S. 10 North American motor manufacturers, they are not 11 readily available for pump applications. 12 MR. STARR: Well, I was just saying all 13 three of these -- I mean, everybody -- I don't 14 know about Armstrong, but Xylem, you have an eco 15 cert that has this thing? Grundfos definitely has 16 one. 17 MR. HANDZEL: Yes, that's correct. 18 That's a motor that we manufacture. So, yes. 19 MR. STARR: So it's products that are 20 available on the market. 21 MR. HUBER: So, now, that's a misnomer, 22 and I'll tell you why. He's manufacturing his own

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 154 1 motor. Grundfos is manufacturing their own motor. 2 These other guys are manufacturing their own 3 motors. That's why they're available to them. But 4 if you go out -- and I've tried, I've gone out in 5 the marketplace to the major motor manufacturers, 6 and I cannot get what I need, they're not 7 available. So if I want to get in that market, 8 now I have to manufacture motors. 9 MR. BROOKMAN: What were you looking for 10 that you couldn't get? 11 MR. HUBER: An ECM motor. So the only 12 way I could get into that market was if I 13 manufactured my own motor. Now I have to go to a 14 motor -- 15 MR. BROOKMAN: Because there is so much 16 demand for ECM, you can't -- or they're not 17 meeting the spec that you want or -- 18 MR. HUBER: Some of both, some of both, 19 and they're just not there. U.S. has got one, and 20 we looked at it, and so have some of the other 21 guys, but it's so noisy, nobody can use it. 22 MR. BROOKMAN: Go ahead.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 155 1 MR. ADIN: Can I raise just one more 2 issue related to this topic generally? And we've 3 talked a lot about potential energy savings and 4 availability of the motors and feasibility of 5 converting from PSC to ECM, but the element I 6 haven't heard anyone mention yet is cost. So is 7 that something that we could -- 8 MR. HANDZEL: We're not even into that 9 area yet, so -- 10 MR. ADIN: Yeah. Okay. 11 MR. HANDZEL: But that will be part of 12 the life-cycle analysis, Lucas, because, I mean, 13 clearly there is a substantial cost factor 14 involved in ECM motors. 15 MR. ADIN: Right. And that's why I 16 raised it. I mean, if we're going to talk about 17 this next time and talk about this in terms of 18 coverage and feasibility and all that, we need 19 something to put on the table and talk about. 20 MR. BROOKMAN: Go ahead, Bob. You're 21 next. 22 MR. BARBOUR: Bob Barbour, from TACO.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 156 1 As a rough estimate from TACO, I would say it's 2 like twice the cost of the pump. That's probably 3 a little maybe on the low side, but depending on 4 the pump jacks you look at, and I'm only talking 5 right now about the really small 1/25-horsepower 6 type pumps, I'm not talking about the 1/2-horse, 7 the 3/4- horse, how those motor costs are going to 8 impact, if you can get them. There is a big "if" 9 there, I just -- 10 MR. BROOKMAN: To convert between a 11 standard motor pump and an ECM motor pump. 12 MR. BARBOUR: Yeah, ECM. 13 MR. BROOKMAN: Joanna. 14 MS. MAUER: So cost is certainly an 15 important issue. I think, as Mark said, that 16 would be something that would be captured in the 17 LCC analysis, and I think something that we would 18 expect that DOE would analyze as part of the 19 engineering analysis for this rulemaking? 20 MR. ADIN: We would, but I don't think 21 we have much of that yet for the kinds of products 22 that we're talking about right now.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 157 1 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel. There is no 2 -- Navigant didn't ask for any information from us 3 about that, so there is no readily available data 4 source that is going to be produced unless they 5 have some other outside method to get that. 6 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary. 7 MR. FERNSTROM: So I know we can't talk 8 about cost in this group, but going down to my 9 local plumbing supply to buy a circulator, I'm 10 looking at maybe 150 bucks, and if I want to get a 11 better one, it might cost me three or four hundred 12 dollars. So that's twice the cost right on, but 13 these things don't cost a lot. So if you look at 14 that incremental cost relative to the value of the 15 energy savings, which is what I hope we'll do in 16 this proceeding, we may find that the energy17 saving value exceeds that incremental cost and 18 it's worth paying the extra money for it. 19 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Yes, Bob. 20 MR. BARBOUR: This is Bob Barbour again. 21 I think we need to see the life-cycle analysis to 22 show us that because I don't think we can sit here

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 158 1 and -- I mean, I'm not sure where that benchmark 2 is going to be drawn as far as how many years. I 3 know we have an idea ourselves what we think it 4 might be, but I would like to see the actual 5 analysis, the load profile that's used for that 6 analysis, et cetera, that has to go into that 7 because it's not as simple as looking at a full8 speed pump running for 5,000 hours. 9 MR. FERNSTROM: So I totally agree, 10 that's what I would like to see, too, and as a 11 consensus, I hope we can agree to pursue looking 12 at that rather than summarily dismiss it as 13 something that we're not going to even consider. 14 MR. BARBOUR: Okay. We don't disagree 15 with that. You know, one of the things, though, 16 that I said yesterday was I really felt that 17 circulators, and I'm talking the real 1/25- 18 horsepower, the small stuff, really needed to be 19 under a separate rulemaking because we didn't have 20 a test standard in place for this. I don't 21 believe we have a good picture of the load profile 22 in the U.S.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 159 1 market with the control mechanisms that 2 are used today in the U.S. market in order to be 3 able to justify making that move at this point to 4 generating a rule for that. However, we are 5 certainly, as a company -- and I think I can speak 6 for virtually anyone else that's in the 7 circulator, the real fractional or small 8 fractional horsepower circulators, we're all 9 moving toward ECM. There is absolutely no doubt 10 in my mind that every one of us is doing that. 11 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay. So all I wanted 12 is to come to agreement that we collectively 13 believe we ought to take a look at it. 14 MR. BROOKMAN: I think that seems like a 15 reasonable thing. Right? 16 Lucas, do you want to follow on? 17 MR. ADIN: Well, I mean, I don't have 18 anything to add to that. We agree that it's 19 something we should look at, and we have some 20 data, pieces of data, that we would like to 21 collect that will help us discuss this in more 22 detail hopefully in the next meeting.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 160 1 And so I was going to kind of run down 2 the list of things we talked about -- 3 MR. BROOKMAN: I think we're almost 4 there. 5 Steve. Yeah. 6 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Again, I'll agree with 7 Gary, and I think, again, especially for the 8 people who haven't seen some of the DOE's analysis 9 with other rules, typically, again, once they 10 decide on some sort of metric, efficiency metric, 11 they decide, okay, here is the baseline that's out 12 there in the marketplace right now, level 1, 2, 3, 13 4, 5 max tech, typically Level 1, let's just say 14 they don't choose a technology, they describe what 15 technology could be used, but Level 1 is supposed 16 to represent, let's say, a 5-percent improvement 17 over the baseline, Level 2 is a 10-percent. 18 Again, it's more -- maybe it's semantics, but it's 19 a way of saying you decide what technology you 20 want to use to meet that level, we're not going to 21 say you have to use Technology X or Technology Y, 22 they might give an example, but it's your

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 161 1 decision, your design, in terms of meeting that 2 efficiency improvement. So, again, I know we're 3 talking a lot about ECMs, but there are other 4 technologies out there, you shouldn't be limited 5 by any rulemaking. 6 MR. ADIN: Right. And that's part of 7 this. What Steve is referring to is what we 8 categorically tend to refer to as the engineering 9 analysis component of the standards rulemaking, 10 and so we look at -- once we've decided which 11 products we're covering, we look at all the 12 different technological options that are available 13 for improving the efficiency of that product, and 14 we do a screening analysis and decide which ones 15 are actually feasible and which ones are just way 16 too expensive, which ones would require materials 17 that just aren't available on the market, which 18 ones actually have been demonstrated to work, 19 there has to be a working prototype at the very 20 least to be able to use it, so things like that. 21 And then once we've screened in, 22 screened out, we have a bunch of screened in

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 162 1 technologies, we come up with suites of 2 technological options we put together and come up 3 with the different percentage energy savings 4 resulting from those combinations, as Steve just 5 described. So just to provide a little bit more 6 background for those in the room who haven't 7 really seen how we do this in detail, but -- 8 MR. BROOKMAN: Do you want to -- you 9 said you've kind of made a list? 10 MR. ADIN: So, yeah, I have a list. 11 I've been trying to kind of keep notes as I've 12 gone, but please correct me if I've missed 13 anything. 14 So we have -- and it seems like we have 15 some broad categories of things that we're 16 collecting data on, so I'll kind of go through in 17 that manner. So we have a need for shipment data 18 generally across the types of pumps that we're 19 looking at, and I think we're talking about 20 shipment data -- well, this is inclusive of 21 circulators, fractional horsepower pumps and 22 smaller ones, but broken out by horsepower, pump

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 163 1 type or configuration, connected load, and the 2 configuration in which they're shipped, so motor, 3 or with controls, or whatever it is. So I think 4 that kind of covers the broad shipments aspect, 5 but please let me know if there are other 6 dimensions to that. 7 MR. BROOKMAN: Tom. 8 MR. ECKMAN: In that characteristics 9 data -- and I don't know, given the maturity of 10 the test procedure right now, this is an open 11 question because I just don't know -- even if it's 12 a company level, for the bare pump right now, not 13 for the integrated one, is there an existing 14 rating system, performance rating system, that 15 you've established, and was that data collected to 16 develop what the typical pump efficiency is by 17 horsepower or XYZ product type? Or was that just 18

-- 19 MR. BROOKMAN: Al. 20 MR. HUBER: No. What we did was collect 21 the efficiency for the Lot 11 pumps. We did a 22 survey. We provided that information and that

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 164 1 data to Navigant, they have it. We have shown it 2 to some of the NGOs, not the raw data, but we've 3 shown some of the results -- 4 MR. ECKMAN: The aggregate data. 5 MR. HUBER: The aggregate. And we 6 developed a minimum efficiency index. We were 7 basically mimicking what they did in Europe. So 8 we gathered the data, and we think it's accurate. 9 It's not off sales data, it's off test data, so 10 that it's not some salesman's idea of how 11 efficient his pump is. 12 MR. ECKMAN: Yes. 13 (Laughter.) 14 MR. HUBER: And this was all handled by 15 an independent third party, and we certainly have 16 the data, and we've given that to Navigant, and 17 they have it. But that's all, just Lot 11. 18 That's all. We have not done any other surveys, 19 and there are no efficiency standards, and at this 20 point in time there are no categories. 21 MR. ECKMAN: Right, existing. But is 22 the performance levels that you're reporting there

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 165 1 consistent with the draft testing standard or not? 2 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Absolutely, 3 yes. 4 MR. HUBER: Yes, they are. And I want 5 to say that we've done this, we took the Hydraulic 6 Institute test standard and basically modified it 7 with the help of I guess Navigant has been party 8 to the discussion and part of the Pacific 9 Northwest, so that it would be useable for this 10 type of -- it's been modified -- 11 MR. ECKMAN: Efficiency metric. 12 MR. HUBER: Right. And the Committee is 13 almost completed, and that's why they're telling 14 you that they think we can get you a copy probably 15 in January. 16 MR. ECKMAN: Okay. 17 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis? 18 MR. STARR: This is just a question. 19 Did Navigant work on looking at load profiles at 20 all based upon industry type or did that become 21 too much of a -- it would be just interesting to 22 know if they came up with anything on that.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 166 1 MR. ADIN: I'm told that's something 2 that Alison, at LBNL, is working on, so -- sorry. 3 Just one moment, I'll answer that in just a 4 second. 5 MS. WIDDER: This is Sarah, from PNNL. 6 We were working on this project with LBNL, and 7 we're collecting field data. I will agree with a 8 lot of the manufacturers, that it is very diverse, 9 and sometimes pumps can -- a specific equipment 10 class or type of pump could go into a variety of 11 applications, which makes developing 12 representative load profiles difficult, but we are 13 trying to collect field data from specific 14 industries that might be most represented by the 15 scope of pumps that were initially proposed for 16 consideration. So some of that data would be 17 available, and we might be able to at least start 18 discussing some representative options maybe at 19 the next meeting. 20 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. 21 Tom? 22 MR. ECKMAN: Just following up on what I

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 167 1 was asking for, again, given that you provided the 2 performance of those pumps to get that information 3 into the dataset so that we see what the typical 4 performance is or what the range of performance is 5 in those pump categories. 6 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Al? 7 MR. HUBER: This is Al. I want to make 8 sure you understand it was all rated at best 9 efficiency point. 10 MR. ECKMAN: Sure. Sure. 11 MR. HUBER: And one thing that 12 complicates some of this is that we trim 13 impellers, so you've got to be real careful. So 14 you've got to say what we did was we rated it all 15 at full diameter and all at best efficiency point 16 because it just gets exponential. 17 MR. ECKMAN: If you look at all the 18 cuts. 19 MR. HUBER: If you look at all the 20 trims. 21 MR. ECKMAN: Right. 22 MR. HUBER: I mean, this is exponential,

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 168 1 and nobody has got time to get that data. 2 MR. ECKMAN: Right. 3 MR. POWERS: And the trims aren't purely 4 linear. Trims are not purely linear; right? As 5 you know when you go down; right? We all know 6 that; right? And some are closer, but based on 7 the specific speed, they can vary a lot; right? 8 MR. ADIN: Can I ask just one very 9 general question about impeller trimming? 10 MR. HUBER: Sure. 11 MR. ADIN: Just to give a rough idea, if 12 you have one, the percentage of pumps that are 13 shipped with the impeller trimmed? 14 MR. HUBER: Oh, it's probably fairly 15 high. 16 MR. ADIN: Yeah. 17 MR. HUBER: The pump in the box usually 18 goes out with what we call -- we call them pump in 19 a box. Okay? I mean, this is the stuff they set 20 on a shelf somewhere, he's talking about, only at 21 one impeller diameter, but the vast majority of 22 what all of us manufacture are trimmed.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 169 1 MR. ADIN: Yeah. Okay. 2 MR. HANDZEL: And that's because -- 3 excuse me -- one particular model could have five 4 different horsepower motors on it based on what 5 they trim the impeller to. 6 MR. HUBER: Exactly. 7 MR. HANDZEL: So that's the variety that 8 we were talking that this stuff -- it's engineered 9 to order -- 10 MR. ADIN: Application. 11 MR. HANDZEL: -- for a specific 12 application. 13 MR. POWERS: It also varies, Lucas, when 14 you look at the system that they want to operate 15 at. If they have a four-pump system, one-pump 16 system, where is that pump going to run out to? 17 How is it going to impact that? So sometimes when 18 they do trimming, they do work, they will 19 sacrifice BEP because they need to have the trim 20 back on the curves, they're going to run at, let's 21 say, 75 percent or 50 percent on the curve a lot 22 more time- wise, so they'll want to -- you know,

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 170 1 it's up to the customers. 2 MR. ADIN: Sure. 3 MR. POWERS: Every one of these things 4 are dealt with, and there are a lot of 5 considerations on trim, the NPSH, you're going to 6 modify, you're going to do some tricks to it to 7 help -- you know, there are a ton of things that 8 get done on these things. 9 MR. ADIN: Yeah, and, I mean, that might 10 have a finer point that we don't need to deal with 11 at this stage. 12 MR. HUBER: I wouldn't. 13 MR. ADIN: Right. 14 MR. HUBER: I wouldn't do it at any 15 stage. 16 (Laughter.) 17 MR. HUBER: You had better stay at full 18 diameter at BEP; otherwise, it just gets too 19 voluminous and you'll never get your -- 20 MR. ADIN: Well, I'll step away from the 21 Pandora's Box that I just -- 22 MR. POWERS: I want to know what kind of

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 171 1 Oracle computer system you have to analyze the 2 data. 3 (Laughter.) 4 MR. POWERS: These mega things this big 5 that have a lot of data, you'll have hundreds of 6 them in this room and you still won't keep up. 7 MR. ADIN: Right. I understand the 8 number of variables on these things could expand 9 significantly, so I'll -- 10 MR. POWERS: Yeah. That's not a pump in 11 a box again like saying there are different -- 12 MR. ADIN: Right. Understood. 13 Understood. 14 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary Fernstrom, from 15 California IOUs. I have a question if you guys -- 16 I'm going to be ordering a 5- to 15-horsepower 17 water circulation pump to circulate heating and 18 cooling water in a building. Is that likely to be 19 a pump in a box or is that likely to be a trimmed 20 impeller -- 21 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel, from Xylem. 22 Most of the pump in a box categories probably go

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 172 1 up to like 2-horsepower, so if you get above 2- 2 horsepower, it's going to be constructed to order. 3 So it depends. Some of us may go to 3-horsepower, 4 but really that's about the breaking point, Gary. 5 After that, everything is pretty much specified on 6 an order basis. 7 MR. FERNSTROM: Thank you. 8 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas? 9 MR. ADIN: So unless there are any other 10 comments on that point, I was going to return to 11 going down the list to make sure we're -- 12 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah, keep going. 13 MR. ADIN: Yeah, so the next category of 14 discussion or category of data items that we're 15 going to try and provide were the items that Steve 16 had brought up with respect to pumps driven by 17 electrical or non-electrical drivers, so gas, 18 diesel, steam. So we'll try and get a percentage. 19 Now, you meant percentage of shipments, of 20 products shipped with those kinds of drivers? 21 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Really products in the 22 field because obviously for larger ones, it's

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 173 1 really more of a field survey than a manufacturer 2 survey, I would say. It could be both, but then 3 again that spills over into, what percentage of 4 pump energy are you really talking about? 5 MR. BROOKMAN: We've got some 6 manufacturer comment here. Either one of you 7 guys. 8 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel, from Xylem. 9 Just to comment, that was a question on the 10 Navigant survey. They did ask us, so we did 11 provide that information. 12 MR. HUBER: Well, out in the field 13 you'll not be able to get that -- 14 MR. POWERS: That's what I was trying to 15 clarify. We're not going to get field data. If 16 it's shipments, we can get you that. The 17 installed basis we would call it, it's different - 18

- 19 MR. ADIN: Right. Yeah. That may be 20 the case. I don't necessarily expect we would be 21 able to get it from you guys. There might be some 22 other source --

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 174 1 MR. POWERS: But you might be able to go 2 to state legislation. There are places, you know, 3 if they -- 4 MR. ADIN: Right. You go to the turbine 5 manufacturers and ask them how many they sold and 6 to what applications, but again a lot of times 7 they don't know the applications either, so -- 8 MR. POWERS: Right, okay. 9 MR. ADIN: Well, we'll see what we can 10 find, I'll put it that way. And then, of course, 11 coupled to that was what's the energy use of that 12 installed base. Okay. 13 All right. And then the next item was - 14 - oh, I'm sorry. Yeah. 15 MR. ECKMAN: Irrigation use, you can get 16 that out of the farm and ranch irrigation survey 17 (inaudible). 18 MR. BROOKMAN: Sarah has a comment. 19 Sarah? 20 MS. WIDDER: I think the irrigation data 21 is actually one that is probably the most -- and 22 commercial buildings maybe, and most easy to come

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 175 1 across. There is a large number of -- I just want 2 to make sure that the advocates and everyone in 3 the room is on the same page here. There is not a 4 lot of data on field application for other 5 industrial sectors, and so that's going to be a 6 difficulty that we're just going to all have to 7 work through and we can sort of make some 8 assumptions and come together to develop load 9 profiles or something else. But I just want to 10 make sure we are all on the same page about what 11 we'll be provided. We can definitely look into 12 irrigation more and commercial buildings, and we 13 were trying to develop something for also the pulp 14 and paper industry, but aside from that, it's 15 going to be some slim pickings in terms of public 16 data. 17 MR. ADIN: Okay. So the next general 18 category of items on which we're looking to get 19 some more data is the PSC versus ECM motors 20 question. So the potential for energy savings, 21 from what I heard to be a presumed complete shift 22 from one to the other, and then maybe some data on

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 176 1 availability of ECM motors. I don't know really 2 what form that would take, but how available they 3 are. I mean, we've heard a little bit about that 4 anecdotally, but I don't know if there is a way to 5 characterize how available motors are, if -- so 6 obviously there are two categories. There is one 7 category in which the pump manufacturers are 8 incorporating their own assembled motor into the 9 pump, and then there is the purchasing a separate 10 motor. So those are two different issues, but -- 11 MR. FERNSTROM: I think it also breaks 12 out by size. So there is a question about PM-ECM 13 motor availability in the 1/25-horsepower range 14 versus the 1-, 2-, 3-horsepower single-phase. 15 MR. HUBER: This is Al. I will tell you 16 this, that the majority of them are not 17 manufactured here in the United States, the vast 18 majority. 19 MR. ADIN: Okay. And then the other 20 component of that is cost data, whatever cost data 21 we can get for the conversion from one to the 22 other, and understanding that that will vary

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 177 1 depending on the size of the pump, but we'll see 2 what we can get. 3 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary again, 4 California IOUs. With regard to the cost data for 5 the small products, the 1/25-horsepower, some of 6 these manufacturers already offer a PM-ECM motor 7 and an indication of the cost difference would 8 simply be the difference between that and the 9 standard product. 10 MR. BROOKMAN: Now, Mark. 11 MR. HANDZEL: Lucas, I just wanted to 12 understand. Some of this data is not going to be 13 available in the Navigant survey and other places, 14 so what are you going to do to try to put it 15 together? Do you have a plan or -- 16 MR. ADIN: Well, we'll have to look at 17 what we have, and if we don't have it, we're just 18 going to have to ask for it. So we'll have to try 19 and come up with an appropriate way to limit the 20 questions so that we're getting what we need for 21 the purposes of discussion next time. 22 MR. HANDZEL: Yeah, but do you use

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 178 1 Navigant to collect it? Is that what -- 2 MR. ADIN: Yeah. I mean, we would 3 aggregate it -- 4 MR. HANDZEL: Okay. So it would be 5 covered by the same NDAs -- 6 MR. ADIN: Correct. Correct. It would 7 be covered by NDAs, we would aggregate the data. 8 It would be for the purposes of the characterizing 9 this shift generally. Yeah. 10 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary. 11 MR. FERNSTROM: So I just should say 12 that the California Investor-Owned Utilities are 13 going to be working to help you. We're purchasing 14 probably 15 to 20 of these small circulator pumps. 15 We're going to have the price because we'll buy 16 them from a local plumbing supply, and if we're 17 also going to have the performance, a question in 18 hand is, what test procedure do we use? Because 19 you've pointed out there isn't a commonly agreed 20 to one. And we're talking to some of the 21 manufacturers about how they think that test ought 22 to be completed, but within a few months, probably

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 179 1 by May anyway, we'll have the results to share 2 with the group. 3 MR. BROOKMAN: Al. 4 MR. HUBER: Just a point. If you 5 institute a test procedure for that product, the 6 current price of that product will go up. So if 7 you try to use the current price, that's not a 8 necessary predictor of the future price. 9 MR. FERNSTROM: Well -- 10 MR. HUBER: Because they don't test 11 these products now period. 12 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay. So Gary again. I 13 would like to make the observation that if there 14 is some regulation affecting these pumps, the 15 price will probably go down because it's been our 16 experience that when efficiency gets regulated, it 17 gets commoditized usually resulting in a lower 18 incremental cost. 19 MR. BROOKMAN: Al. 20 MR. HUBER: The only one that I can 21 speak to are motors, and they've done nothing but 22 go up every time a new regulation comes out,

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 180 1 somewhere between 7 and 9 percent every time. 2 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck. 3 MR. POWERS: Yeah. We manufacture 4 vertical permanent magnet motors mostly in the 5 European and Asia arena, and finding out in the 6 marketplace they're more than two times because 7 you do have to have the VFD mechanism to drive 8 with them. And the impact comes down to, can you 9 go into these wells that are in the ground, 6- 10 inch, 8-inch, 10-inch, whatever? What we find is 11 you cannot drill wells anymore in essence around 12 the world. Nobody is going to give you a permit 13 to drill another well. It's getting very 14 restrictive on how many additional wells. So 15 because of that, people have to either get forced 16 hydraulics or get more flow out of these units. 17 Where the permanent magnet comes into play in the 18 submersible technology arena, because of the fact 19 that you can go up in horsepower -- right? -- not 20 necessarily in efficiency, but to a certain degree 21 that's really what it's coming to, but for the 22 same diameter, so you can add more stages, get

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 181 1 more head, more flow, et cetera. That's what's 2 happened. But the costs are incredible. Okay? 3 They're more than two times. There is a 4 tremendous amount. So when you say you think it's 5 going to be regulated and all that, my experience, 6 like Al was saying, in the motor industry, I have 7 not seen it in years. 8 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay. Well, I was just 9 -- for the application and use side, I don't 10 disagree with you. I was just trying to point out 11 there are different perspectives on the effect of 12 regulation, when things are going to get more 13 expensive because they're regulated, they'll have 14 to be tested. And another is some commodity 15 products actually become less expensive. 16 MR. BROOKMAN: Do you have more that was 17 on your list? 18 MR. ADIN: So the only other one that I 19 had listed here was that we try and gather 20 whatever data we can, representative load profiles 21 in the field. But that was it. Are there any 22 other general categories or information that the

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 182 1 folks in this room are interested in seeing for 2 next time? 3 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary, California IOUs. 4 I think that's an excellent summary. If we 5 collectively have that information, we can look at 6 the potential savings and costs and industry 7 impacts and come to a good decision. 8 MR. ADIN: Great. So that being said, I 9 think there were some legal items that we wanted 10 to address a little bit more concisely, so I'm 11 going to turn it over to our representatives from 12 General Counsel. 13 MS. KOHL: Thanks, Lucas. This is Betsy 14 Kohl, from DOE GC. So one of the issues we've 15 been talking about is the performance versus the 16 design requirement, and the way we are reading the 17 statute is that we could set a design requirement, 18 but it's an either/or. So we could either set a 19 standard for problems that was a design 20 requirement or we could set a standard that was a 21 minimum level of energy efficiency, and how you 22 get there is up to you. So that's something to

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 183 1 think about, but that's the legal structure there. 2 And as far as the issue that Steve was 3 raising, if we were to do the minimum -- 4 MR. BROOKMAN: May I interrupt? 5 MS. KOHL: Yes. 6 MR. BROOKMAN: Pardon me for 7 interrupting. So if this Committee -- if I 8 understand you, you're saying you've got both 9 options, and this Committee, if it sends you a 10 recommendation that employs one of those options, 11 that would be fine from DOE's perspective. 12 MS. KOHL: Yes. Yeah. 13 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 14 MS. KOHL: If we were to go down the 15 pathway of a minimum energy efficiency level, the 16 different metrics for different product classes is 17 still something that we need to look at, and 18 you've given us some potential examples that we 19 would have to go and check out, but the basic 20 issue of efficiency level or design requirement is 21 where we are on that one. 22 As far as the compliance date, Lucas was

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 184 1 correct, our reading of the statute is that it 2 would be 5 years, that's our current analysis, 3 that it would be 5 years from when we publish the 4 final standard. 5 Is there anything else we need to say 6 here? Yes, on that issue. No. 7 The other issue is the preemption issue. 8 So unless there is a specific statutory directive 9 for a particular product, the general rules of 10 preemption before a federal standard becomes 11 effective are that a state standard would not 12 permitted, that's our reading of it. So we've got 13 a covered product here and we're working on a 14 standard and there is a statutory prescription 15 before our standard becomes effective for state 16 action. 17 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. A 18 question on that last point. What you're saying 19 is states are preempted while DOE is actively 20 considering something. 21 MS. KOHL: Mm-hmm. 22 MR. FERNSTROM: If it decides not to

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 185 1 develop a regulation, then the states are not 2 preempted; right? No? Yes? 3 MR. COHEN: No, that's not correct. 4 Pumps are a covered product under the statute, and 5 as a result, there is preemption in place right 6 now. 7 MR. FERNSTROM: Whether DOE has a 8 regulation or not? 9 MR. COHEN: That's correct. 10 MR. FERNSTROM: So we've had this debate 11 with attorneys from the California Energy 12 Commission before, and I'm not an attorney and 13 don't profess to be one, but what you're telling 14 me is that a nonstandard standard constitutes 15 preemption. 16 MR. COHEN: If it is determined there 17 are different types of -- now we're going into the 18 nicety of the statute, I'm happy to have this 19 conversation with the folks in California, who we 20 do talk to on a fairly regular basis. The way the 21 statute is set up, there are covered products and 22 then there is the ability for the Department to

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 186 1 add coverage. When there is a covered product 2 under the statute, there are two different 3 provisions for preemption: one before a federal 4 standard applies and one after a federal standard 5 applies. Very clearly in the statute, when you 6 have a covered product, federal preemption applies 7 even before a federal standard is in place. 8 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay. So let me be even 9 more specific. This is very helpful. 10 Particularly with regard to circulators, do we 11 know whether that is a covered product or not? 12 MR. COHEN: Pumps are the covered 13 product, so any form of pump is a covered product. 14 MR. FERNSTROM: So a circulator, as a 15 form of pump, would be. Okay. Thank you. 16 MR. BROOKMAN: Meg? 17 MS. WALTNER: Drilling down on that, 18 would a residential circulator -- that doesn't 19 matter? 20 MR. COHEN: That doesn't matter. The 21 statute is set up as either there are residential 22 products and commercial products, the different

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 187 1 product categories within the overall covered 2 product, which in this case is pumps, either falls 3 into one or the other, it's either residential or 4 commercial as a whole. So once you have a 5 commercial product, which pumps are, they all are 6 regardless of even if they are used in a 7 residential setting. 8 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary again. Let me 9 follow up with a question on that. So one of the 10 arguments we've had in this discussion is these 11 circulators may be primarily a residential product 12 and therefore they can't be entertained under the 13 commercial/industrial pump regulation. However, 14 they're still preempted. If California wanted -- 15 that isn't -- 16 MR. COHEN: So the 17 commercial/residential distinction almost doesn't 18 matter here because the preemption provisions in - 19 - again, this is just the niceties of the statute 20 -- the preemption provision actually is in the 21 residential portion of the statute, but on the 22 commercial side, it refers back to the residential

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 188 1 side. So it's the same preemption provision 2 either way. 3 MR. FERNSTROM: Well, I was led to 4 believe that one of the reasons that DOE may not 5 be able to regulate circulator pumps is because 6 they're either residential or primarily 7 residential. That's not an issue? 8 MR. COHEN: Not from a legal 9 perspective, no. 10 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay. Thank you. 11 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas, do you want to -- 12 MR. ADIN: Just a question. Was that 13 based on something that DOE has said previously or 14 is that -- 15 MR. FERNSTROM: I don't know that we've 16 -- we haven't had this discussion with DOE. Among 17 us, HI, and the advocates, and for that matter, 18 California, we have debated whether or not the 19 primary application of these products is 20 residential or commercial, and whether that made a 21 difference, and we were of the belief that if it 22 was deemed that the products were primarily

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 189 1 residential, then they would not be a candidate 2 for this commercial/industrial pump rulemaking 3 process. 4 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve. 5 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Two thoughts. And so I 6 just want to say I know there have been certain 7 laws where, for example, I think it was especially 8 lighting, that in the statute states like 9 California law, that they made a standard before 10 DOE decided, that was allowed. And I believe it 11 was also that way for commercial refrigeration, 12 that if states did their own standard before a DOE 13 standard was published, that they were allowed to 14 be effective, is -- 15 MR. COHEN: That's correct. So there is 16 a general rule of preemption and then there are 17 exclusions in the statute from that general rule 18 of preemption. 19 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Now, the second 20 question I had, I know it's not related, it's just 21 kind of interesting. California last year or the 22 year before set standards for television sets. As

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 190 1 I recall, televisions have been covered -- weren't 2 they -- 3 MR. COHEN: TVs, televisions, are one of 4 the exclusions specifically in the preemption 5 provision. 6 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. I just recall 7 that they were in the 1970 statute. Okay. Thank 8 you. 9 (Laughter.) 10 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Joanna, did you 11 have something? 12 MS. MAUER: Just about the question that 13 Lucas raised. My recollection is there was some 14 discussion in the framework document that DOE was 15 planning to focus exclusively on 16 commercial/industrial products, but maybe that was 17 not from a legal perspective. 18 MR. ADIN: Right. So let me clarify. 19 When we used the word "residential," it was more 20 to say that the types of pumps, based on their 21 characteristics and configuration, are those 22 commonly used in residential applications, but we

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 191 1 would exclude them on the basis of their physical 2 characteristics. It's not where they're used 3 primarily or the market because that is, from a 4 legal perspective, irrelevant. They're commercial 5 and covered under the commercial part of the 6 statute, so to the extent we did exclude things 7 like that from coverage, it would just be based on 8 the class of products from a physical 9 characteristics standpoint. 10 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay. Gary again. So 11 one more question about this. In the pump 12 business, a lot of pumps are pumps, they can be 13 used in different applications, including 14 residential or commercial. So it's kind of hard 15 to distinguish necessarily from the product 16 characteristics where it's going to wind up, 17 whether it's going to be in the residential market 18 or the commercial market. Would the pump 19 manufacturers agree with me or are there some 20 pumps that you know are not going to find their 21 way into business? 22 MR. BROOKMAN: Mark.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 192 1 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel, from Xylem. 2 Certainly we don't think any large horsepower 3 pumps are going to end up in a residence. 4 (Laughter.) 5 MR. FERNSTROM: I know. 6 MR. HANDZEL: But on the flipside, I 7 mean, Gary, I think we've had so many discussions 8 over the last 2 years. I think initially when we 9 saw things in writing, we did come out and say, 10 hey, most circulators go into residential 11 applications, so they should be excluded, and DOE 12 came back and said, no, that's not the case. So 13 we pulled back on that and said, okay, that's 14 fine. 15 So we continue to say that we strongly 16 believe that a significant majority of circulators 17 go into residential applications, but we don't 18 have hard facts and numbers. As I mentioned 19 yesterday, we sell through distribution. They 20 could sell to a contractor who puts it into a 21 residence, they could sell to a contractor who 22 puts it in a school.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 193 1 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay. And in a way it's 2 kind of irrelevant except for the load and hours 3 of operation and all of that that we might -- 4 okay. Thank you. 5 MR. BROOKMAN: Bob, did you have 6 something? 7 MR. BARBOUR: Yes. Bob Barbour. Just 8 one question, Mark. When you use the term 9 "circulator," you're defining up to 3-horsepower? 10 MR. HANDZEL: Yes. 11 MR. BARBOUR: So some of when if you ask 12 Mark how many 1/25-horsepower circulators are 13 going into commercial buildings in comparison to 14 the 1-, 2-, 3-horsepower, those are entirely 15 different -- 16 MR. HANDZEL: Yeah. 17 MR. BROOKMAN: And so I think this part 18 of the talking past one another yesterday and 19 today was this distinction, that the really small 20 ones, 1/25- horsepower and the 1-2-3s, you know -- 21 MR. HANDZEL: 1/2, 3/4, 1-horse, yeah. 22 If our original thought process from the framework

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 194 1 document or from the framework meeting process was 2 1- to 200-horsepower, that range as opposed to the 3 fractionals. 4 MR. FERNSTROM: So the way it breaks 5 down for us is the 1/25-horsepower in California, 6 primarily residential, but when you start hitting 7 the 1/12 and up, by majority, those go into 8 commercial applications, that's probably not true 9 nationally because residential circulators are 10 probably bigger on the East Coast, but -- 11 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. 12 MR. FERNSTROM: I understand. This is 13 kind of a moot issue. 14 MR. BARBOUR: There has always been a 15 crossover there. 16 MR. FERNSTROM: Go ahead. 17 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So are we ready to 18 move on now? Have we covered the data of the data 19 analysis needs sufficiently? I think we have. 20 Is there anybody who just wants to stand 21 up? Just stand up and stretch. We're going to 22 work for another 15, 20 minutes, half an hour.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 195 1 Then we're going to take lunch. Let's just get a 2 little -- just don't go anywhere, what -- 3 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: 30 seconds. 4 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. We're just going 5 to do this every now and then. Freshen up our 6 limbs. 7 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Get the 8 blood moving. 9 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. So while you're 10 doing that, let me queue up what's next. So I 11 think it's well understood that we need to have 12 some preliminary sense of the scope and also the 13 test procedures that would be used to accommodate 14 that scope to think about the full duration, the 15 full timetable, for the negotiation. So I'm 16 hoping this next item here, the second from the 17 bottom, "Test Procedure Pathway to Understanding," 18 that we can embark upon that next. Lucas had some 19 ideas about this. He has spoken with General 20 Counsel and others, and he also stated something 21 this morning that was important, which was -- and 22 maybe you can restate this better than I can --

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 196 1 which was essentially we need to get the task done 2 however much time it takes. 3 (Laughter.) 4 MR. BROOKMAN: That's not quite what you 5 said. 6 MR. ADIN: Well, yeah. I'll state that 7 a little bit more clearly. I think really what I 8 was trying to communicate is that the scope 9 shouldn't necessarily be limited by the timeframe 10 that we've discussed generally. 11 MR. BROOKMAN: As, for example, in the 12 ground rules discussion. 13 MR. ADIN: Right. 14 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 15 MR. ADIN: We shouldn't be limiting 16 scope purely on the basis of time, when we think 17 we have time to consider them. I mean, if we 18 think that things should be within the scope and 19 it will take more time to analyze and to produce a 20 good rule that will achieve energy savings that we 21 want to pursue and we need more time to do it, 22 then we'll look at getting more time, but I think

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 197 1 that was just a general point I wanted to make. 2 It's not that the scope is limited by time, you 3 know. I think we want to think of the constraints 4 that way. 5 So it's fine to have -- the timeframe 6 what we looked at yesterday I think is, frankly 7 from DOE's perspective, pretty ambitious given 8 some of the things we've been talking about. So 9 it's worth thinking about moving it a little bit 10 farther out, not much, maybe a month or two, but 11 at the very least just to give us a little bit 12 more of a cushion, something we feel more 13 comfortable with. So I'm not suggesting a 14 particular day, we can talk about that. 15 But the other big piece of this is the 16 test procedure, that's the next item that's up 17 there on the list. And so we've heard from Greg 18 about what we might be able to see in January, and 19 that might give us something concrete to discuss, 20 which is very helpful. We had been under the 21 impression we wouldn't see something until quite a 22 bit farther out, probably till the end of the

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 198 1 spring, and so we were concerned about timeline 2 from that perspective. 3 But just to put this all in context, 4 what actually has to happen with the test 5 procedure, I don't think we discussed this in 6 detail yesterday, but the test procedure that DOE 7 would ultimately adopt would have to be also done 8 through a rule. So it isn't just kind of rolled 9 into this rulemaking. We actually have to publish 10 a proposed rule that includes whatever proposed 11 test we're going to use and then finalize that 12 through a rulemaking as well. So that has to 13 happen within the timeframe of this standards 14 rulemaking. So that's just another piece that has 15 to happen, and that will take some time. I mean, 16 it will happen in parallel with this, obviously, 17 but it's something that I thought was important 18 for the group to know. 19 MS. WALTNER: I have a question about 20 that process. Would you envision the test 21 procedure NOPR coming out during our negotiations 22 versus us making a recommendation as a negotiating

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 199 1 committee about the test procedure? 2 MR. ADIN: So that's a good question 3 actually. I mean, timeline-wise, yes, the NOPR 4 would come out during the period of the 5 negotiations of this Working Group. But with 6 respect to the ability of the Working Group to 7 inform the NOPR, that's actually to some extent 8 more of a legal question. I might defer -- 9 MR. COHEN: Even the timing is going to 10 be sort of interesting, too, I would think. It 11 depends on if we get -- I don't know what stage 12 this document is going to be in, in January when 13 we see it. It's out for a vote and won't be 14 approved. We've heard the timeline is sort of May15 ish for a final document for us to really consider 16 that document in any formal way, at least to get 17 done. So it may push that timing out, too. 18 We often do, though, consider -- in 19 fact, we almost always will consider industry 20 documents in our test procedures. In fact, if you 21 look at our test procedures, we often incorporate 22 by reference industry test procedures, so it's

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 200 1 certainly part of the consideration. 2 MS. KOHL: Deliberations are probably 3 the biggest -- I mean, if these deliberations, I 4 mean, they're public, what we're doing here, so 5 feeding that into the test procedure rulemaking I 6 don't think would be an issue. 7 MR. BROOKMAN: Great. 8 Gary. 9 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary, at California 10 IOUs. I have one more important preemption 11 question for you folks. California and several 12 other states following in its footsteps has 13 developed residential swimming pool pump 14 regulations, and they basically require for pumps 15 over 1 total horsepower that they be two-speed, 16 multi-speed, or variable speed such that the 17 benefits of the affinity law and energy savings 18 can be realized through that variable speed 19 technology. Is that preempted? 20 MR. COHEN: To some of the details of 21 what that product is, we have to look into it. It 22 might be. I'm not sure.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 201 1 MR. FERNSTROM: Well, I would ask you to 2 look into it because it's not just California. 3 The regulation went into effect in 2006 and has 4 been in effect ever since. It's been replicated 5 in Florida and several other states that don't 6 come to mind right now. So during the break I can 7 give you the reference to that. Thanks. 8 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. So test 9 procedure pathway and understanding how these 10 pieces might fit together. 11 Gary? 12 MR. FERNSTROM: Maybe just one other 13 quick point for the legal folks. If it turns out 14 those existing regulations would be preempted, I 15 would ask that they be explicitly excluded from 16 this regulation such as to not disrupt what the 17 states have already done. 18 MR. COHEN: Just to be clear on that 19 point, this is a different product than one that 20 we would be adding coverage where we would be 21 defining what the scope of the product is. If 22 Congress has set up a covered product, we don't

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 202 1 have the ability to say it's not a covered 2 product. 3 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay. Thank you. 4 MS. WALTNER: To be clear, pumps aren't 5 defined in the statute; right? They're just 6 listed. So isn't it -- I mean, I guess I'm a bit 7 uneasy and maybe this is an issue to drill down on 8 not right now, but how you can have a covered 9 product for a product that's not defined as to 10 what it is, or if you have some authority to 11 define that product. 12 MR. COHEN: Yeah. So that could cut 13 both ways. Right? That could cut the -- since 14 it's pumps is the word, pump of any form -- right? 15 -- could be the other way of looking at it -- 16 right? -- because Congress didn't choose to limit 17 -- I mean, this is an issue we can talk about, but 18

-- 19 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve, go ahead. 20 MR. ROSENSTOCK: I was going to ask, and 21 maybe ask a question in a different way. If in 22 our recommendations we add -- let's say we

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 203 1 recommend a definition and we specifically say in 2 the definition this recommendation or this 3 rulemaking specifically excludes swimming pool 4 pumps, and therefore it would not be an 5 effectively covered product, then the states can 6 do what they could do because you have 7 specifically excluded that product from coverage 8 under your definition. Is that -- 9 MR. COHEN: Right. So I said we're 10 going to look into that question separately. 11 MR. ROSENSTOCK: I'm just going to say, 12 isn't there precedent with other products where 13 you've said you're -- like you're excluding 100- 14 watt R20 lamps. There is another rulemaking that 15 said specifically we're covering incandescent 16 reflector lamps, but we have decided we are making 17 a decision that we are not covering 100-watt R20 18 lamps because it's a niche product, et cetera. 19 You specifically say, "We are not covering this 20 product." 21 MR. COHEN: Yeah, so that's a different 22 issue. This statute has lots of little twists and

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 204 1 turns to it, but that's a different issue because 2 there is a specific authority in the law for us to 3 exclude from incandescent reflector lamps certain 4 kinds, so -- 5 MR. ROSENSTOCK: And the other question 6 I had, the converse of that is if you decide not 7 to exclude pool pumps, what happens with all these 8 states that have set standards? 9 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary, from California. 10 Just one more quick caveat. It might be possible 11 to interpret the regulation as a design regulation 12 because it specifies a design rather than an 13 energy efficiency performance level. I don't know 14 whether that matters, but I just -- okay. Thank 15 you. 16 MR. COHEN: Yeah. For preemption 17 purposes, no. 18 MR. BROOKMAN: So I'm interested in us 19 trying to knit together here some logic, some 20 thought process, these elements that we're going 21 to try to create a pathway or an expectation 22 surrounding the duration of the negotiation, and

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 205 1 I'm wanting additional thoughts based on what 2 Lucas had said already because ultimately we're 3 wanting today to emerge from here with ground 4 rules that we're going to adopt, we hope, and the 5 one significant portion that we haven't addressed, 6 thanks to our efforts yesterday and to Jeremiah's 7 red-lined corrected version, is the dates 8 associated with the termination date for this 9 Committee and term sheet date to ASRAC. 10 I had a question, and it's really 11 fundamental, and I guess I should know this, but, 12 Greg, the test procedure that your committee is 13 working on that you think that you'll be able to 14 offer a draft version in January, did it emerge 15 out of whole cloth? Was it based on previous test 16 procedures? Is it analogous to something that 17 came before? I'm wondering if there is something 18 -- if there is an analysis that's possible based 19 on some test procedure earlier iteration so that 20 the analysis can begin. 21 MR. CASE: Greg Case, Hydraulic 22 Institute. It is generally based on an existing

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 206 1 standard, but there are many changes in scaling 2 down of the choices that we have for the testing 3 for this particular standard. 4 MR. BROOKMAN: How much different would 5 you say it is? Is it radically different where 6 there would be an order of magnitude -- I'm 7 looking for some way for the folks that want an 8 analysis and data to get their teeth into 9 something that might be a trend line indicative of 10 something. 11 MR. ADIN: So, Doug, I'll just point out 12 that the main reason I had asked that question 13 earlier was based on the presumption that we 14 wouldn't see the 40.6 procedure until much later 15 in the process. 16 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 17 MR. ADIN: So now that we know that 18 we'll be able to see a draft as early as sometime 19 in January, I think that largely resolves the 20 question of what we're going to use in the interim 21 period from our perspective. 22 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So do you have any

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 207 1 thoughts about the dates, any additional thoughts? 2 You talked about it a little bit already. 3 MR. ADIN: Well, I mean, if I were to 4 characterize generally, I would say we should try 5 and give ourselves as much time as possible within 6 the constraints that we had discussed at the 7 beginning. So if we're going to try and shoot for 8 a proposed rule by the end of the year, and the 9 notice needs to be basically by the end of 10 September, then what's the latest that we can 11 provide something, a term sheet, to the ASRAC and 12 give them enough time to consider it? 13 So I think really that's more what we're 14 working with. I think we want to try and give 15 ourselves as much time as we can. 16 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Do we have 17 additional thoughts on this? 18 Tom? 19 MR. ECKMAN: From historical experience, 20 until we see the life-cycle cost analysis results 21 and have the chance to have probably multiple 22 iterations of those because people will assert

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 208 1 that the costs used were wrong both up and down, 2 so we'll have to debate about how sensitive they 3 are to particular factors used in the analysis and 4 how much loading was on the particular pump and 5 what the duty cycle was and whether we got that 6 right or not. I mean, that takes a while, and at 7 least it will be a couple months' worth of 8 circling and sniffing that issue for sure. And 9 that's where the rubber meets the road in terms of 10 finding consensus about what the ultimate levels 11 are that might go into the term sheet. 12 MR. BROOKMAN: And when do you think 13 that -- 14 MR. ECKMAN: That's a question for the 15 staff, as when would we have that capability to do 16 across all the product levels. 17 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas? 18 MR. ADIN: I think it's a little early 19 to say for sure. I mean, hopefully -- well, and 20 maybe this is getting into the more specific 21 timeline issues, but maybe that's something that 22 we can try and identify more concretely by the end

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 209 1 of the next meeting once we've all had a chance to 2 see a preliminary test procedure, we'll have some 3 data that will help us refine our idea of scope, 4 we'll at least have some preliminary LCC numbers. 5 We'll have some more concrete things that we can 6 use as a basis for having a discussion like that. 7 And that's why I was saying at least in terms of 8 timeline, maybe the best place to start is just as 9 far out as we can go within the constraints that 10 we were originally envisioning. We would still 11 like to keep it as our goal to have a proposed 12 rule out by the end of 2014, so within that 13 constraint, let's see what's reasonable, and 14 understanding that there are some variables, but - 15

- 16 MR. ECKMAN: It just seems to me that in 17 order to be finished with a term sheet in 18 September, the discussion of the life-cycle costs 19 and resolution of the levels has got to happen not 20 later probably than June/July timeframe. And 21 that's targeting that level because that will give 22 us at least a couple meetings to talk about those

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 210 1 and maybe need more, but we'll see. And if we get 2 any later than that, then September looks more 3 problematic to me because we'll need time to come 4 to agreement on what -- given the life-cycle cost 5 information and that, national impacts information 6 on the manufacturers, you weigh those two and it 7 takes a while to come -- that's where the rubber 8 meets the road. 9 MR. BROOKMAN: Bob. 10 MR. BARBOUR: Bob Barbour, with TACO. 11 One of the questions that I have in the back of my 12 mind, I'm hearing people talking about life-cycle 13 cost analysis, et cetera, but what energy standard 14 or where is the MEI going to be drawn or what are 15 you looking for in the way of an efficiency 16 improvement? Because that is going to have a lot 17 of feedback, I would think, from the manufacturing 18 group as far as feasibility, cost, et cetera, 19 depending on where that bar is set. And today I 20 don't think any of us in this room honestly know 21 what you're looking for. 22 MR. ADIN: So to help provide at least

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 211 1 part of a response to that, it kind of gets back 2 to our normal process, which is that we use the 3 best data that we have available to come up with 4 some candidate standard levels, so we'll come up 5 with five or six different levels at different 6 ranges of improvement -- 5 percent, 10 percent, 15 7 percent, whatever it is -- and then do the 8 analysis on each of those. So what do the life9 cycle costs look like? What do the energy savings 10 look like? All that. So it would be a range, 11 kind of a menu, of options, and that's where those 12 LCCs become really important because we're 13 evaluating each of those grades on those kinds of 14 factors. 15 MR. BARBOUR: Bob Barbour again. How 16 does that relate to our feedback as far as 17 resource availability to accomplish some of those 18 different levels? 19 MR. ECKMAN: My experience is that when 20 we see the candidate standard levels that are 21 being considered, you guys will have a pretty good 22 idea, okay, if I've got to move to this technology

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 212 1 or that level of efficiency, that's where we need 2 your feedback about, okay, that's going to mean 3 redesign of X lines by Y time, and that's the 4 loading I've got. Until we see what those levels 5 are, it's pretty hard for you guys to even get any 6 idea what that means, implications, but that's 7 sort of what -- you know, if we can even see what 8 some of those candidate standard levels are, you 9 guys can go back home and say, "All right, what's 10 this going to mean to me to get this product at 11 that level versus that level?" That's part of the 12 tradeoff that we go through in these negotiations, 13 is, well, this looks really economic for 14 consumers, but for you guys, the ROI on that is 15 really bad. 16 (Laughter.) 17 MR. POWERS: Chuck, at Flowserve. I 18 think it's important getting back to the draft 19 ground rules, we need to know the scope before we 20 pick that date. We've got to -- I mean, this is 21 just crazy. I mean, is it going to be Lot 11? Is 22 it going broader than that? Because whether it's

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 213 1 August or like I think he was saying September, so 2 maybe August is the date, or whether it's June, we 3 obviously want to get something done sooner. In 4 my opinion, maybe we should pick what we feel 5 today is a realistic date for a Lot 11, it's well 6 defined, there is a lot of stuff done by European, 7 a lot of data been started, so we have something, 8 and maybe try to move -- you know, we know it's 9 aggressive, but maybe try to move it up so that 10 maybe we have a little more time to look at 11 something later if we go there. But I don't know 12 if we can pick a date unless we know what that 13 scope is going to be. Right? 14 And the other thing that it does -- and 15 I'm glad you brought it up -- is the impact 16 because if we impact a lot of smaller 17 manufacturers and they close shop and then they 18 put a local ad in the paper saying, "Oh, guess 19 what? DOE's regulation just let go 200 people and 20 they don't have jobs now because of this." 21 MR. BROOKMAN: We're aware of those. 22 (Laughter.)

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 214 1 MR. POWERS: And that happens, you know, 2 and it's happening in Europe already. Right? But 3 that's part of it. Right? We just have to make 4 sure we understand. Right? Or even if we don't 5 close shop on the small guys, so the bigger guys 6 might say, "We're going to go offshore because the 7 technology and the time and the cost," and then 8 you have that impact. So it's all balanced, to 9 your point. 10 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: That's part 11 of the package. 12 MR. POWERS: We've got to make sure we 13 do this right or else we could have a significant 14 impact. Right? But I think the scope so we can 15 get to it. Right? 16 MR. BROOKMAN: Doug and then to Al. 17 MR. POTTS: Doug Potts, American Water. 18 This is kind of building on what Chuck was saying 19 and is something I was going to suggest that would 20 be sort of a phased approach. Instead of trying 21 to decide today if we're going to include 22 circulator pumps or not in the scope, and that's

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 215 1 obviously a debate -- let's make it practical, 2 such as Lot 11, and set our dates based upon that, 3 and if that goes really well and time allows us to 4 add additional scope within that same timeframe, 5 that's one path. 6 Another option is we get things done 7 within the prescribed schedule within that first 8 stage, then we move on to the next stage and there 9 is a new timeframe for the second. And so that's 10 a little bit different than whether it's included 11 in this regulation or not. I mean, that's another 12 way of approaching it, but another approach would 13 be having a staged approach and just now set the 14 timeframe based upon the initial approach and then 15 later timeframes as we see how things unfold. 16 MR. BROOKMAN: Or as maybe a friendly 17 amendment, that maybe we presume that Lot 11 is 18 the centerpiece of the scope for right now, and we 19 time for that and the test procedure release, and 20 then in the meantime, in the next month or so, 21 we're going to get more data, more analysis, to 22 continue to evaluate the circulator issue, and

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 216 1 then see how that fits into the timeframe that we 2 were considering. So that's a different kind of 3 approach. 4 Steve, go ahead. 5 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock. 6 Again, I'm going off the framework document in 7 terms of what DOE wrote down as parameters for 8 potential energy conservation standards, and I'm 9 thinking that what they wrote -- again, this is 10 back in February -- in terms of it said 11 stakeholder coverage parameter proposal, and was 12 that the manufacturer stakeholders that's showing 13 up on this slide? I'm just wondering. 14 It says, "Parameters for Potential 15 Energy Conservation Standards." This was in the 16 framework slides from February, and I'm just 17 wondering if that is -- is this Lot 11? I'm just 18 kind of wondering if this is -- 19 MR. BROOKMAN: Sarah. 20 MS. WIDDER: I think I know what slide 21 you're referring to, and the stakeholder proposal 22 did refer to a proposal from the manufacturers and

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 217 1 HI regarding scope and is consistent with Lot 11 2 in the European Union. The products for 3 consideration from the DOE in the framework 4 expanded upon that very slightly. 5 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. Again, it might 6 be helpful, especially for us non-pump experts, 7 maybe to write down -- 8 MR. BROOKMAN: Sure. 9 MR. ROSENSTOCK: -- just what's in Lot 10 11, what did DOE write, and then maybe, what do 11 the advocates want to add? Or maybe another way 12 is to say that everybody agrees that Lot 11 pumps 13 should be covered. 14 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. Sarah, when DOE, 15 in the framework document, it listed several 16 specific pump types. Most of those were in Lot 11 17 and then there were some additional pump types 18 that were included? 19 MS. WIDDER: Correct. Actually, the 20 framework public meeting slides are up there. I 21 can't remember. Do you know what slide number it 22 is, Steve?

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 218 1 MR. ROSENSTOCK: That's what I'm trying 2 to -- 3 MS. WIDDER: That might be helpful to 4 frame this discussion. 5 MR. ROSENSTOCK: There it is. 6 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: That's just 7 the range proposal. There is still a chart that 8 has pictures. 9 MS. WIDDER: Yeah, go back a little bit. 10 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: How do I get 11 to the pictures yet? Table 1.2. 12 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas? 13 MR. ADIN: So just to kind of reframe 14 the conversation a little bit with respect to the 15 dates issue, I think it's useful for everyone to 16 keep in mind that the ground rules do have a 17 couple of general provisions for us to extend the 18 deadline if necessary. We can ask ASRAC to do 19 that. We can make a recommendation, whatever it 20 is. And we can change our own ground rules, I 21 mean, it has a provision in there for that. So 22 it's not that we put a date in there and say, hey,

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 219 1 it's unchangeable and it's a drop-dead date and 2 everything will fall apart if we don't get there. 3 So understanding that scope really has a very 4 large potential impact on the feasibility of the 5 dates that we're going to choose, it seems, since 6 we really just kind of at this point need to move 7 forward, we need to establish some ground rules so 8 that next time we can really get into substance, 9 it might be worthwhile putting in a couple of 10 dates with the understanding that there is a 11 provision that we can change them if necessary, 12 and then the first issue of substance that we'll 13 discuss at the next meeting with all the 14 additional data points that hopefully we're going 15 to gather in that interim period is scope, have a 16 way to move forward. 17 MR. BROOKMAN: Can we make a statement 18 of presumption surrounding maybe, for lack of a 19 better term, a minimum scope or something like 20 that, or a presumed scope, and then as just a 21 placeholder while we're gathering more 22 information?

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 220 1 MR. ADIN: Well, I think from DOE's 2 perspective, we have it up there. At the bare 3 minimum, it's Lot 11. 4 MR. BROOKMAN: Which is quite similar to 5 Lot 11. 6 MR. ADIN: Similar. Yeah, there are a 7 couple of additional items in there, much of the 8 double suction and -- 9 MR. BROOKMAN: Lot 11 is described in 10 the last column. 11 MR. ADIN: Right. 12 MR. BROOKMAN: So double suction and 13 axially split are not covered as is vertical 14 turbine and axial propeller mixed. 15 MR. ADIN: I can't read it. 16 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: That's okay. 17 MR. BROOKMAN: So you're suggesting we 18 create some sort of our best guess dates here, 19 there may be placeholder dates, and then as we 20 zero in on scope, and at the next meeting 21 especially -- well, I guess on an ongoing basis, 22 keep considering how the dates are going to pan

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 221 1 out. 2 MR. ADIN: That's right. So, I mean, we 3 do have a couple of dates we could suggest. 4 MR. BROOKMAN: Why don't you suggest a 5 few? 6 MR. ADIN: So the dates that we're 7 thinking of, again just as a basis for discussion, 8 the first date being the date of which 9 negotiations would terminate, being September 1st, 10 and then the second date, the date being that on 11 which we would submit our term sheet to ASRAC, 12 being July 15th, again with the understanding that 13 these could be adjusted if we deem necessary. 14 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Okay. And then 15 I've tried probably beyond my -- I've been trying 16 to find some way to characterize simply the scope 17 here. Would you like to take a shot at that? 18 MR. ADIN: So I think from our 19 perspective, it's -- well, there are actually kind 20 of two parts to that question. 21 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. 22 MR. ADIN: You have the classes of pumps

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 222 1 themselves, which is that list that we just showed 2 up, the Lot 11 plus those few other types that DOE 3 was considering, but you still have the question 4 of whether it's bare pump or pumps with motor and 5 all that. 6 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. 7 MR. ADIN: So that's another scope 8 question that we haven't resolved yet. 9 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. 10 MR. ADIN: And there are circulators. 11 So those things we will still need to resolve at 12 the next meeting. I don't think we're going to 13 really get there today concretely. 14 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. Do you want to 15 contribute, Sarah? 16 MS. WIDDER: I think the one thing that 17 I would say -- and this has to do with the scope 18 schedule conflict that has come up a few times -- 19 is that I think the second part of the scope that 20 Lucas presented, whether it's bare pumps or pumps 21 with motors or especially pumps with motors plus 22 controls, I think everyone knows has the larger

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 223 1 implication on schedule. 2 And so, Doug, I like your suggestion 3 that if we perhaps pick something that we can all 4 agree on and we could maybe come up with some 5 dates associated with a minimum scope and then 6 discuss schedule alterations as the scope was 7 decided in later meetings? 8 MR. BROOKMAN: I'm just suggesting this 9 because in what I've heard that's available to 10 work on, it seems as though there is this -- the 11 work that HI has done, the test procedure that's 12 underway, addresses largely Lot 11, and so it kind 13 of forms for me this presumption that this 14 Committee would consider that and try and take 15 that up. And then there are the other issues for 16 which we're wanting additional data analysis that 17 might be included as well, but at sort of a 18 minimum entering into this and following DOE's 19 analysis and the framework, that that forms kind 20 of a sensible starting point. 21 MR. POWERS: So if I can -- 22 MR. BROOKMAN: I'm just sticking it out

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 224 1 there. Right? 2 MR. POWERS: Chuck Powers, Flowserve. 3 I'm trying to understand what you're saying, and I 4 think I'm agreeing with it, is that we've got to 5 get something done. Douglas earlier mentioned Lot 6 11 -- right? -- he represents a lot. Right? 7 Let's start there. Let's pick the dates that 8 Lucas mentioned, which I believe up on the thing 9 here would be September 1st we'll terminate, and 10 July 15th was the second date. 11 MR. BROOKMAN: The term sheet. 12 MR. POWERS: The term sheet. Okay? 13 Let's say Lot 11, which was not that chart on 14 there, you actually missed a couple items on Lot 15 11 was on there; right? 16 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. 17 MR. POWERS: Let's go by Lot 11, and 18 there was a document that was published by 19 (inaudible) too, but even better than that, there 20 was the one published by -- it's in this pack in 21 here -- sorry, sorry, sorry -- the Department of 22 Energy on May 17th, which clearly defined by

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 225 1 pictures even so people could better understand 2 them what that Lot 11 was. Right? And we've got 3 a document already. There's a date. You don't 4 have to get confusing on the items, I hope, and 5 let's get on with it. Right? 6 And then to be fair, if there is 7 substance, data, you know, in the next meeting, 8 the recommendation, my recommendation, let's go 9 forward with Lot 11, these dates, and, by the way, 10 include the test as part of this deal, which 11 wasn't in it originally, let's have that done if 12 Greg feels he can support that. Right? And then 13 at the next meeting, if the data and other 14 information comes out that Gary and others feel, 15 maybe we look at maybe adding something else if it 16 supports that. 17 MR. BROOKMAN: Well, yeah, but it seems 18 as though we would love to have all the 19 information we need at this point to know what to 20 do with circulators, but in the roundabout 21 conversations we've had, we've revealed we don't 22 have the information we need to do anything with

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 226 1 that. So, however, hopefully by the January 2 meeting, we'll have a lot more information to 3 figure out what to do with circulators. Right? 4 I'm looking over the data, folks. Yes. So it 5 seems like we've got one proposal on the table to 6 deal with Lot 11, and I would just like to 7 clarify, as a starting point for scope, DOE, in 8 its framework document, listed four or five 9 additional types -- 10 Can you put that slide back up there, 11 Jeremiah? This one. 12 So you see them here in the middle, this 13 is double suction, axially split multistage, 14 vertical turbine, and axial propeller mixed. So 15 those all seem -- the logic here from the 16 Department of Energy is you start with kind of a 17 broad view, you do kind of preliminary analysis, 18 and it starts to narrow the scope. Do you know 19 what I'm saying? 20 MR. POWERS: Okay, but, Doug -- this is 21 Chuck again from Flowserve -- again, for pump 22 manufacturers, for the industry, and even the

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 227 1 little guys understand it, those words are 2 dangerous. Those words up there can be 3 misconstrued. Right? Believe me, go my way. When 4 everybody looks at Hydraulic Institute, you're 5 talking OHOs, you're talking OH7s. These are term 6 that's well defined in the industry rather than 7 words. Do you follow what I'm saying? In other 8 words, it's well defined in -- 9 MR. BROOKMAN: Why is it dangerous? 10 MR. POWERS: Well, because people can 11 look at the word "axially split," but the 12 definitions have been defined in the Hydraulic 13 Institute standards and the EU standard, you use 14 those codes that define -- 15 MR. BROOKMAN: I guess I'm 16 misinterpreting because I thought that they were, 17 in listing these additional things, that they were 18 expanding beyond Lot 11 or beyond the HI proposal. 19 That's what I thought they were doing. 20 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel, from Xylem. 21 They are expanding it, but what we're saying is 22 that the industry recognizes these HI-defined

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 228 1 codes, so it's dangerous for us to go off of the 2 descriptions and not look at the families and 3 codes that the industry relies on. 4 MR. POWERS: For example, just to be 5 fair, the word "partials" up there, all of a 6 sudden -- 7 MR. HANDZEL: What does that mean? 8 MR. POWERS: -- what does that mean? 9 Right? Whereas if you say -- and I'm not trying 10 to spin this or anything, just say here are the 11 codes that have been defined. And by the way, if 12 we go to get other data in the EU, they've got a 13 lot of data, they all refer to these types of 14 codes. 15 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Greg. 16 MR. CASE: Our issue with the expansion 17 comes back again to data needed to be able to 18 evaluate those, and I don't know that we provided 19 any of that data with our interview, so we would 20 have to go out and resurvey to get that data. I 21 may be wrong on that, but I'm looking over to 22 Sarah. Do we know? This slide which lists some

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 229 1 additional pump types that are characterized as 2 not covered, did the manufacturer submit data for 3 that stuff? 4 MS. WIDDER: Well, Dan will address 5 that. Okay, I just wanted to say with regards to 6 using the codes referenced by Chuck, that comment 7 was also submitted to the framework document, and 8 DOE has a crosswalk that they have developed. 9 This is just a slide from the framework document, 10 so it's obviously not been updated. But that's a 11 good comment, and in the future, we can either 12 continue to use these terms but reference specific 13 HI codes, use only HI codes, and that will depend 14 on how we wish to define equipment classes. 15 MR. BROOKMAN: So the crosswalk ought to 16 eliminate the danger, so to speak. 17 MS. WIDDER: Correct. 18 MR. BROOKMAN: That ought to create 19 clarity surrounding what we're talking about. 20 Lucas? 21 MR. ADIN: It will help for our purposes 22 certainly, but going broader than that, for the

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 230 1 purposes of regulatory coverage, obviously we 2 define these terms or whatever terms we're using 3 to establish product classes and scope of coverage 4 and all that, those will be part of the 5 regulations, so we would actually put definitions 6 that make -- 7 MR. HANDZEL: We have all those -- 8 MR. ADIN: Right. And so that would be 9 part of this, so there wouldn't be these questions 10 about -- for that part of it anyway. 11 MR. BROOKMAN: But, Dan, on the question 12 of data, Chuck says for these -- the items listed 13 that are additional, did Navigant collect data on 14 those items? 15 MR. WEINTRAUB: So for those items, 16 Navigant went out and did request data that was 17 part of the interview package. To the extent that 18 we receive data, that can be aggregated and is 19 useful to the analysis. We don't have enough to 20 perform any analyses really beyond the Lot 11 21 scope right now, it just was not provided to us. 22 So if we look to understand how we can expand

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 231 1 scope, we're going to need to get back into 2 collecting more data. 3 MR. POWERS: And, Doug -- Chuck, again 4 from Flowserve -- 5 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. 6 MR. POWERS: -- I think, again, just so 7 we're clear and we know what we're trying to do, 8 where we can communicate, because an EC or an 9 engineering house or customer, even I'm sure 10 Douglas in here and the guys in California, when 11 they write specs or specify stuff, they'll refer 12 to these codes. You know, they'll use the other 13 words, but most of them will refer to these 14 definitions that everybody worldwide tries to 15 recognize. Right? But just for clarification, 16 there are eight in Lot 11. 17 If you just look at that list up there, 18 I count five: one, two, three, four, five. So 19 there are eight different significant codes here, 20 and then you have five up on the board that are 21 saying either partial or covered. So I'm just 22 trying to sort of stick to the Lot 11.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 232 1 MR. BROOKMAN: Regardless of the 2 nomenclature we pick or how the crosswalk gets 3 that done, we need to be clear one way or the 4 other. Right? That's understood. 5 Sarah? 6 MS. WIDDER: I think that that comment 7 is heard, and the reason there are five there is 8 sometimes two of the OH nomenclature classes are 9 incorporated into one, as referenced in this 10 table, but that crosswalk exists, and we can also 11 discuss as part of these regulations whether the 12 equipment classes the Department uses to establish 13 coverage should be identical to those definitions 14 HI already has or group them up, which is sort of 15 what this table represents, and why additional 16 terms were suggested. But that can all be 17 addressed, and I think that, back to Lucas's 18 point, whatever definitions in equipment classes 19 the Department or this group comes up with, they 20 will be clear and concise, and so we'll avoid any 21 danger. 22 MR. BROOKMAN: But just to be clear, the

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 233 1 information that the Department presented in the 2 framework document, that did include some pumps 3 that are different, an expansion, a small 4 expansion perhaps, on Lot 11. 5 MS. WIDDER: Correct. 6 MR. POWERS: Chuck Powers. We keep 7 using this word, "a partial small expansion." It 8 is not. 9 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 10 MR. POWERS: It is significant. 11 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Good. Okay. So 12 we're going to break for lunch very soon. We're 13 taking a shot at a rather preliminary definition 14 of scope and also in the last conversation we have 15 suggested some possible dates that we would fill 16 in for ground rules, noting that as we're going 17 along that we may need to revise those dates, 18 particularly as we zero in more completely on the 19 scope and look at the test procedure and the 20 implications of the test procedure and all of 21 that. So I'm going to restate where I think we 22 are.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 234 1 Chuck's proposal is that we -- there is 2 a sort of scope, there is a presumption 3 surrounding scope that at a minimum it's -- I 4 guess I'm going to interpret. It's Lot 11. He 5 says it's Lot 11, but I'm going to say, for the 6 purposes of being inclusive for all the 7 negotiators, we presume that Lot 11 is the minimum 8 scope, and the test procedure that becomes 9 available in January for us to look at that allows 10 us to start doing some analysis and figure out 11 what the implications are to get to the sort of 12 data that Tom is referring to so that we can start 13 making these difficult decisions in the perhaps 14 June/July timeframe, and though beginning in 15 January, prior to our next January meeting when 16 this data becomes available surrounding other 17 classes outside of Lot 11, like circulator pumps, 18 that we have an active discussion in January 19 surrounding how to approach these other then Lot 20 11 issues. So I think that's my sense of what 21 I've heard about -- I'm trying to construct what I 22 think might work.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 235 1 Go ahead. 2 MR. POTTS: Just a question or point of 3 clarification is, should we assume that this first 4 phase of Lot 11 is pumps only? Because I think 5 when we get into variable speed drive, it seems 6 like that is mostly addressing the circulator type 7 pumps, and so that would be a separate category. 8 Or if we're talking about larger water system type 9 pumps or we're talking about variable speed 10 drives, that's a whole multiple levels of 11 complexity. So I guess we should clarify that, if 12 that's included or not. 13 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary. 14 MR. FERNSTROM: Well, I would add one 15 other category, and I think it was Al or one of 16 the HI folks refer to these products as box pumps. 17 So I'm interested in the integral pump motor 18 products, 1-, 2-horsepower, that may be sold 19 without any sort of variable speed drive or 20 control associated with them. 21 MR. BROOKMAN: Al? 22 MR. HUBER: Under the scope that we have

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 236 1 now, Gary, including the definitions of horsepower 2 range and clean water, 1 is already included, 1 3 through 200 is already included. So we don't need 4 to worry about that, it's already there. 5 MR. FERNSTROM: Well, I know, but I 6 think the suggestion was to take maybe some of 7 these things that may or may not already be there 8 and think about them in a different way. And what 9 I want to do is think about the 1-, 2-horsepower 10 boxed products in terms of wire-to-water 11 performance, expanding the test procedure to try 12 to get to a point where we might be able to define 13 their performance in terms of water power out and 14 electrical power in at some load points. 15 MR. BROOKMAN: Al. 16 MR. HUBER: This is Al again. The 17 problem with that is, is that if you're going to 18 cover 1 through 200-horsepower by whatever 19 rulemaking that we have, you're going to have to - 20 - and not all of them are sold the way you have 21 described. I mean, we, as a company, sell a lot 22 of 1-, 2-, 3-horsepower pumps which are not -- a

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 237 1 lot of them are not even variable speed because 2 that's what the industry has. If we're not going 3 to do that, if you're going to try to segment, 4 you're going to have part of that in this and part 5 of it in another. Are you going to now raise this 6 up to 5-horsepower or 4-horsepower? I mean, where 7 are you going to make this cutoff? 8 MR. FERNSTROM: Well, I look to you to 9 help inform that, but I think maybe we ought to go 10 to lunch. 11 MR. HUBER: I agree. 12 (Laughter.) 13 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's go to lunch. And 14 so let me just clarify my intention for the group, 15 I'm hoping that we now have the rudiments of a 16 proposal surrounding scope and that when we return 17 from lunch, we can do additional clarification, 18 ask questions, get additional comments. I'm 19 certainly trying to figure out some way to 20 accommodate what the overt and well-spoken needs 21 of the energy efficiency advocacy community are 22 considering circulators to understand that piece

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DOE- Commercial-Industrial Pumps Working Group 12-19-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 238 1 of it. At the same time, it seems as though there 2 is this opportunity to get clear on what is 3 available now for us to get started with. So I 4 myself, even having presented the proposal, I'm 5 completely agnostic, but I do want us, as a group, 6 to sort and sift through this. 7 And I'll take one more comment before we 8 go to lunch. 9 MR. HANDZEL: Just one last thing for us 10 to think about lunch, I would just suggest that we 11 quit calling it "Lot 11" and we clearly define the 12 images of what the pumps look like so that 13 everybody can see exactly what we're talking about 14 because even Lot 11, I think people have different 15 conceptions in their mind what's in that. So we 16 need to either get Al's chart that he has in front 17 of him here or one of HI's letters that was sent 18 to DOE or something clearly to show what we are 19 suggesting be in scope. 20 MR. BROOKMAN: Can we make a copy of 21 your chart, Al? Okay. We'll see if we can get 22 that done over lunch.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 239 1 MR. HUBER: I probably have a better 2 copy. 3 MR. BROOKMAN: A better copy would be 4 good. Whoever has got it. Do you all have a copy 5 of -- which chart is it, Al? Go show that group, 6 Sarah's group over there. Let's make sure and get 7 copies of this over lunch. 8 MR. POWERS: There is also they mailed 9 May 17th. 10 MR. BROOKMAN: The HI presentation? 11 MR. POWERS: The HI presentation to DOE 12 is dated May 17th, and it had the details of it 13 there, too. 14 MR. BROOKMAN: So we have worked hard 15 this morning. I'm tired already. It's 12:15. 16 Let's take an hour for lunch. You know where to 17 find it, I believe, all of you. Do think about 18 this, about how we can commit to making progress 19 and also leave our minds open for what might be 20 coming as additional data and analysis looking 21 ahead. We'll resume at 1:15. 22 (Lunch break.)

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 240 1 MR. BROOKMAN: So in the remaining hour2 and-a-half, really, that we have, I have to 3 accomplish a couple of things. The first is that 4 I want to have brief discussion on the proposal 5 that's on the table to see if we can arrive at a 6 preliminary sense of scope noting that looking at 7 that, we may need to reconsider how you might 8 state that. 9 The second thing is that we want to 10 establish -- we want to do a brief review of the 11 ground rules and take additional comments on those 12 and then baring now major problems of 13 difficulties, adopt these. 14 And then finally, having gone through 15 the other items in this list, want to look ahead 16 to the schedule and see if we can't zero on some 17 additional dates, say, for the next -- I think we 18 had a pretty good preliminary date for January -- 19 probably for the next 3-4 months after that. And 20 I've got an extended calendar as well. Okay? So 21 that's what I'm hoping to do. 22 And the first item on the agenda is to

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 241 1 take additional comments or thoughts on the 2 proposed, and I guess we'd characterize it as 3 probably our best thinking on a preliminary scope 4 of work. Additional thoughts based on that? I've 5 tried to render it in a way that I thought would 6 be satisfactory to most everyone at the table. 7 I'm not sure I succeeded. 8 MR. POWERS: Doug, one of the 9 suggestions, whatever we end up deciding on the 10 scope, maybe being U.S.-based and U.S. is as smart 11 as anybody in the world, we come up with our own 12 definition of what that group wants to be. I'd 13 even try to stay away from the word "lot." Call 14 it something totally different. This is U.S.A. 15 This is DOE. This is all of us in this room -- 16 the suggestion that maybe we call it -- so that 17 the message gets out there there's Lot 11 or 18 whatever, Lot 28, 29, and then there is this other 19 one which is the U.S. version and whatever is 20 recommended it's named. That way it's 21 distinctive. 22 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. That works for me.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 242 1 And then your distinct -- your proposal, in fact, 2 is distinctive, isn't it? Isn't the HI proposal - 3 - it is distinctive, yeah, customized to suit the 4 American market. 5 MR. POWERS: I mean even HI code or 6 something, whatever. Just call it, you know, 7 whatever Lucas feels -- 8 MR. BROOKMAN: I think that sounds 9 sensible to me. We can worry about that later. 10 Other -- I'm particularly wanting to 11 hear anybody who would dissent over the -- who's 12 offended by the existing proposal. Joanna, I'm 13 glad you -- 14 MS. MAUER: So I'm not offended by the 15 existing proposal. So just looking at what HI is 16 proposed and how that differs from what the 17 categories of pumps that DOE outlined in the 18 framework document, I think from our perspective, 19 we'd like to have data to be able to make an 20 informed decision about whether it makes sense to 21 include or exclude certain pump types and then 22 just a specific comment about double-suction

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 243 1 pumps. 2 I think our understanding is that 3 they're much more commonly used in the U.S. than 4 the EU, so it's possible that there is very good 5 reason to exclude them in the EU, but that doesn't 6 necessarily mean that it makes sense to exclude 7 them in the U.S. 8 if they're used differently here. So 9 we'd very much like to see data just to be able to 10

-- 11 MR. POWERS: Well, question: What do 12 you mean by double-suction? What's the definition 13 of double-suction to you? There are all types of 14 double-suction so. When you make comment that 15 those are used mainly in the U.S., I don't totally 16 agree with that just from what we see. But in 17 your definition of double-suction, which kind of 18 double- section? 19 MS. MAUER: So I'm referring to double20 section as defined in the framework document. 21 MR. BROOKMAN: Do you have a page 22 number?

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DOE- Commercial-Industrial Pumps Working Group 12-19-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 244 1 MS. MAUER: This was page 5, single2 stage, axial split. 3 MR. POWERS: Okay. Single-stage, axial 4 split? Okay. Horizontally split, right? I mean 5 not horizontally split, just axial split? 6 MR. HUBER: Axially split. 7 MR. POWERS: We're not trying to put you 8 in a corner. We're actually -- because there is a 9 significant difference. 10 MR. FERMAN: Joanna would like me to 11 comment on this. What we're talking about -- 12 MR. BROOKMAN: Your name is? 13 MR. FERMAN: Randy Ferman. 14 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 15 MR. FERMAN: The double-suction, single16 stage, horizontal axial split-type pump. It has 17 come up in the past that perhaps most of the pumps 18 of that type manufactured are used for fire 19 suppression, but we also know that they are used 20 in water distribution, water treatment and various 21 other commercial and municipal industrial 22 services. So it's just a question of, you know, we

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 245 1 really don't have data on how many of them are out 2 there and whether this is a significant energy 3 opportunity. 4 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So Joanna, I want 5 to return to where you started with your comment 6 about wanting to see the data. Everybody wants to 7 see the data. I think we're all aligned on that, 8 right. And so is it going to -- noting that we're 9 going to direct the analysts to work on the data, 10 figure out what to do with all the categories of 11 data consistent with what Lucas was saying earlier 12 and make that available, hopefully before the next 13 meeting in January, if that is the case, are you 14 willing to accept the preliminary scope as we 15 articulated it? 16 MR. ADIN: Let me just make a point 17 first, Doug, and just very briefly in response. 18 We do have some data on the pumps that you're 19 talking about, so certainly to the extent we can, 20 we'll make that available. It won't provide much 21 in the way of the downstream analysis because 22 we're missing a lot of things like shipments and

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DOE- Commercial-Industrial Pumps Working Group 12-19-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 246 1 that kind of stuff. But to the extent we're able 2 to gather any additional data in the time before 3 the next meeting, we will make that available. So 4 that's one thing. 5 The other thing is just in the very 6 general sense, I think we need to keep in mind 7 that this is -- what we're contemplating right now 8 is the bare minimum scope. There are other things 9 that are technically still on the table that we 10 still have yet to talk about, and I think for 11 those of us that really care about them being 12 included, it's a matter of proving ourselves, you 13 know, they shouldn't be. So there are still, you 14 know, things that we're looking at. This is just 15 the absolute bare minimum of what we do definitely 16 intend to cover and then understanding that it may 17 go broader. 18 MR. BROOKMAN: And it's consistent with 19 what we know to be the progression of a test 20 procedure, right? 21 MR. ADIN: Generally speaking, yes. 22 MR. BROOKMAN: And creates a plausible

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DOE- Commercial-Industrial Pumps Working Group 12-19-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 247 1 starting point for us to establish a minimum. 2 Tom. 3 MR. ECKMAN: My presumption is that 4 these are bare shaft pump only discussions. 5 MR. HUBER: (Inaudible.) 6 MR. BROOKMAN: Al, turn your mic on. 7 MR. HUBER: Someone's changed the chart 8 again back to the -- there it is. Yeah, that's 9 it. 10 MR. ADIN: But to answer your question 11 more directly, Tom, for the purposes of 12 consideration of minimum scope, yes. 13 MR. ECKMAN: That's why I was clarifying 14 bare shaft pump. 15 MR. ADIN: Right. 16 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve. 17 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI, 18 again. I hadn't seen this. This is the entire 19 chart? That's not a second page? This is the 20 full 21

-- 22 MR. HUBER: Yes, it is.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 248 1 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. I just wanted to 2 know just for clarification, just in case it's -- 3 throwing a lot of terminology out here and that 4 helps. Thank you. 5 MR. POWERS: And earlier, when I was 6 talking about the eight categories, that's what I 7 referred to the HI eight, right, and AS. European 8 has different but I think it was brought up by 9 Joanna earlier. In Europe, right, there are still 10 a lot of 50-60 cycle applications all over the 11 place, whether it's the chemical industry, water 12 industry, whatever, so they'll refer to HI 13 categories a lot in the course of the year for 14 some of their own. But the HIs have been around a 15 little bit longer to some Europeans and that's why 16 they still refer to some of 17

-- 18 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve. 19 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Thank you. That's very 20 helpful and, again, Steve Rosenstock, EEI. It 21 might be an HI letter. If it is, please forgive 22 me. I haven't had a chance to see it. Is there a

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 249 1 -- I see the descriptions. I'm just wondering is 2 there another note field that talks about typical 3 applications typical uses, again, just to -- again 4 it would just kind of -- no. Okay. Just -- 5 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary. 6 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary Fernstrom from 7 California IOUs. Did these categories include the 8 type of pump where the motor provides the shaft 9 for the pump and impeller? 10 MR. HUBER: Yes, it is. The (inaudible) 11

- 12 - 13 MR. BROOKMAN: Al, get to your 14 microphone, please? 15 MR. HUBER: It's an OH7. 16 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay, got it. Thank 17 you very much. 18 MR. HUBER: And also OH5. 19 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. Thank you. 20 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie. 21 MR. CAPPELLINO: As far as the question 22 around the application and such, we probably

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 250 1 should have some discussion on horsepower range, 2 temperature range. That's another piece of the 3 discussion that I think helps us from a scope 4 definition standpoint. So I think before we -- 5 MR. BROOKMAN: So in the earlier -- go 6 ahead, Chuck. 7 MR. POWERS: I think also to help 8 everybody, the pump guys probably know this, but 9 there was a report written that you guys should 10 get access to and yourself, okay, that was done by 11 Hydraulic Institute to Department of Energy. And 12 in there, it didn't just show the OH numbers, it 13 showed the pictures. So to your question, Gary it 14 would show here's a foot-mounted pump with the 15 motor connected, a back side; we call that close16 coupled. And it says it up there, but what's nice 17 is it also shows the European code, the HI code. 18 You know, the pictures are worth a thousand words. 19 So you get away from ambiguities and people 20 guessing and wondering and what does it mean, and 21 the double- suction that you mentioned, just to 22 help.

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DOE- Commercial-Industrial Pumps Working Group 12-19-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 251 1 MR. BROOKMAN: I want to clarify the 2 source. So chuck, this is from HI to DOE? 3 MR. POWERS: This was HI to DOE. I 4 brought all these documents with me -- 5 MR. BROOKMAN: And is it a part of the - 6

- 7 MR. POWERS: -- but this was dated May 8 2nd of 2013. 9 MR. DOE: Subject to response. 10 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So I'm wondering 11 if that's a part of the -- it's in the record? 12 MS. KOHL: I'm sure it is. 13 MR. BROOKMAN: It's in the docket. 14 MS. WIDDER: This is the HI written 15 comments that we're looking at right now. 16 MR. BROOKMAN: At any rate, the document 17 you're referring to is in the docket? It's in the 18 DOE docket. 19 MR. POWERS: Right and what she's 20 referring to is on page 3, is that chart too. 21 That's on -- again, my only purpose here is to 22 help educate or whatever. There's a lot of good

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 252 1 stuff that's been put out and it may just clear 2 through that. You know, not your fault, just -- 3 because believe me, there's plenty of documents 4 out there. 5 MS. WALTNER: And to clarify, this is 6 your response to the framework document, your full 7 comment letter? 8 MR. POWERS: Yeah. 9 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Gary. 10 MR. FERNSTROM: So this is Gary again. 11 Looking at your picture, close-coupled means that 12 at least in some cases, there isn't any coupling 13 at all; the motor shaft just goes right through 14 it. Thank you very much. 15 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So Charlie, what I 16 recall -- I'm just going to push it out there - - 17 was 1 to 200 horsepower, and I don't recall what 18 was said about a temperature range. 19 MR. HUBER: Temperature range was minus 20 10 degrees Celsius -- 21 MS. DOE: Grab the mic, please. 22 MR. BROOKMAN: Al.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 253 1 MR. HUBER: -- plus 120 degrees Celsius; 2 minus 10 degrees Celsius to 120 degrees Celsius. 3 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 4 MR. CAPPELLINO: This is Charlie. I 5 think the distinction there is products design for 6 that application range, so a pump that's designed 7 for a high temperature application would be not 8 (inaudible.) 9 MR. BROOKMAN: Does that create a 10 conflict with that list up there? 11 MR. CAPPELLINO: Yeah, this one's right 12 there, right? 13 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Joanna. 14 MS. MAUER: So I just wanted to clarify. 15 Some of those parameters apply to end-suction 16 pumps, not to the last, not to the multi-stage 17 submersible? Is that correct? 18 MR. HUBER: No. 19 MR. BROOKMAN: Al, use the microphone. 20 MR. HUBER: That's not correct. 21 MS. MAUER: So those parameters -- 22 MR. HUBER: Do you want me to -- I'll

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DOE- Commercial-Industrial Pumps Working Group 12-19-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 254 1 read you all the -- the whole list so that you can 2 see. It's only clean water, 26 GPM and greater to 3 a maximum of 459 feet which would encompass that 4 last category that you see there. Horsepower 5 range 1 to 200, design temperatures negative 10 6 degrees Celsius to plus 120 degrees Celsius. 7 MS. MAUER: Thank you. So my 8 understanding that the EU standards Lot 11 have 9 different parameters for like the submersible 10 pumps, for example, compared to the end suction? 11 I'm just trying to understand whether -- what 12 you're proposing is consistent or something 13 different than. 14 MR. HUBER: I think it's consistent. We 15 believe it to be consistent. 16 MS. MAUER: Okay, because -- so in the 17 EU, I believe they have -- they define end suction 18 water pump where they talk about up to 150 19 kilowatts, for example, but I'm not sure that 20 that's included in their definitions of vertical 21 multi-stage, submersible multi-stage. 22 MR. HUBER: Do you see that outlined

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 255 1 somewhere else? I mean do you see those? Do you 2 see horsepower is related only to those pumps? 3 MS. MAUER: I believe I see it only for 4 end-suction water pump. 5 MR. HUBER: As far as I know, to the 6 best of my knowledge, what I just read you is 7 equivalent to all of their Lot 11. 8 MS. MAUER: Okay. And I don't have a 9 specific proposal or difference of opinion. I 10 think just maybe we can just go back and clarify 11 whether it's similar or something different than 12 what's -- 13 MR. HUBER: I think it's correct because 14 when we did our minimum efficiency index, we had 15 to equal what theirs were and I would suspect that 16 it's equal. Some of these other folks around the 17 table maybe can tell me something different. 18 MR. POWERS: Theirs shows up to 200 kW. 19 MS. MAUER: End-suction up to 150 kW. 20 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Yeah, that's 200 21 horsepower. 22 MR. HUBER: That's 200 horsepower.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 256 1 MR. ROSENSTOCK: 150 kW is 200 2 horsepower. 3 MS. MAUER: Right, for -- at least what 4 I'm looking at it says in the definition for end5 suction water pump, up to 150. 6 MR. HUBER: I don't know. I'm telling 7 you that I believe it covers the entire group. 8 MS. MAUER: Okay. 9 MR. BROOKMAN: (Inaudible) Al, she's 10 looking right at the legislation, where she's 11 puling it out. That's -- she's pulling specific 12 things in the definitions of each pump where it 13 gives a range, but it talks about the whole 14 regulatory you've -- the full range. It's more 15 specific by pump in the definitions. 16 MR. HUBER: The full range for all is 17 what I gave you. Those are the limits for the 18 full range. 19 MS. MAUER: Okay. So, now, my 20 understanding was that -- I had assumed that you 21 were referring to end-suction pumps and so we 22 haven't talked about, kind of among the advocates,

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 257 1 whether we think those parameters make sense for 2 the other types of pumps. So maybe we can just go 3 back 4

-- 5 MR. HUBER: I'm really surprised at 6 that. 7 MS. MAUER: So I'm not -- I've -- 8 MR. HUBER: Shocked. 9 MS. MAUER: So I've seen you many times 10 refer to those parameters, and then when I went to 11 the EU regulations and I saw that those seemed to 12 apply only apply to end-suction in the EU 13 standards. So I assume that you were also 14 referring to -- 15 MR. HUBER: I think what Greg said is 16 the overarching legislation shows those parameters 17 that I just listed for the entire product range 18 including end-suction. 19 MS. MAUER: Okay. We should just take a 20 look. 21 MR. HANDZEL: Can I take one crack at it 22 before --

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 258 1 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Mark, please. 2 MR. HANDZEL: So, Joanna, what we did, 3 instead of putting it in there for each of the 4 pump categories, we condensed it all into one 5 overarching cover -- like most of us don't make 6 end-suction pumps that go over 125 horsepower, for 7 example, or something like that. But we just put 8 an overall horsepower range in there, 1 to 200, 9 because that included to map what the EU standard 10 did. Okay? So it would almost be like if you 11 took that definition and put it up there next to 12 each one of these classifications of pumps but 13 many of them don't, you know, they don't cover 14 that whole range. 15 MR. HUBER: They may not cover the range 16 but they're within that range. That's what we're 17 saying. 18 MR. HANDZEL: Right. 19 MR. BROOKMAN: so these are useful 20 clarifying questions. Do we have additional 21 questions or comments, because I'm about to see -- 22 go ahead, Steve.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 259 1 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI. 2 I'm just -- and again, I hate to, you know -- on 3 the greater than 200 horsepower, there might -- 4 well, on a larger side, there might be more 5 variety of drivers. I don't know what the DOE 6 data is going to find in terms of some of the 7 really large ones in terms of -- they're not all 8 going to be in horsepower. There's going to be 9 some that are rated to BTUs, so equivalent BTUs, I 10 guess, would be okay for the non-electric drivers. 11 At the small end, it spills over. 12 Unfortunately, the 1.0 horsepower does spill over 13 into the circulator pump discussion. I'll just 14 stop there, you know, that there is that 15 possibility there too because that straddles the 16 middle of the circulator pump range just as -- 17 again, just something for everybody to consider -- 18 I'm not saying one way or the other -- but that 19 1.0 horsepower could have an interesting impact 20 depending on what's decided on the circulator 21 pumps. 22 MR. BROOKMAN: Gotcha. Mark.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 260 1 MR. HANDZEL: Steve, the only thing I 2 have to say is again, the problem is is there's 3 all these criteria that we described in the -- 4 they're all inter-related, so when you're talking 5 clean water, you're not going to see many other 6 drivers besides motors. Okay? So I guess that's 7 why you can't pick on just one of the criteria and 8 use that as a judging criteria for the overarching 9 thing. So -- 10 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock. I 11 didn't mean to judge. I'm just trying to -- 12 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 13 MR. ROSENSTOCK: -- just the possible -- 14 just thinking about the possible implications 15 depending on the final decision to terms of, you 16 know, what's going to happen in a few -- that's -- 17 I wasn't trying to judge. I was just trying to 18 think as this, then this. 19 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Chuck. 20 MR. POWERS: And you probably have it, 21 Joanna, but you can get a copy -- this is Chuck 22 from Flowserve -- the actual commission which was

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 261 1 dated 25th of June. They scatter around several 2 sections, right, but one section on the back which 3 is Article 1 talked about scope, and it definitely 4 says minus 10 to 120 specifically, which is 5 exactly the message here. 6 If you look down on -- it's Article 1, 7 paragraph 2a, and it gets into some pump types. 8 Then if you keep going to your point, the end9 suction, which is in Article 2, gets in -- they 10 also go -- it's 16-bar. They limit bars to 11 pressure rating of the casing, right. 12 MS. MAUER: Right. 13 MR. POWERS: And that's, by the way, 14 25.4 on the -- to get the PSI. They specifically 15 list the maximum horsepower, the 150 kW. Then 16 what they try to do is be a little more specific. 17 And as you go down, you can read each one of 18 these, you go down to the bottom, submersibles, 19 they specifically say - - they get into the 20 centimeters and all that, but even in Europe, they 21 go by inches in the casings. They say 4 and 6- 22 inch, which is right up there on 4 and 6-inch. So

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 262 1 I think -- you know, again, I'm not trying to -- I 2 think what Al and the team had done before was try 3 to just get it into one document and try to, you 4 know, flesh it a little bit to make it a little 5 clearer. 6 MS. MAUER: So just to clarify. So the 7 EU standards don't specify up to 150 kW for the 8 multi- stage but the HI proposal was to apply that 9 150 kW upper limit to the other pump types. 10 MR. HANDZEL: And they may not be made 11 because it's a broad range of horsepower. 12 MS. MAUER: That's fine. 13 MR. HANDZEL: Okay. 14 MR. BROOKMAN: So I'm about to see if 15 this proposal on scope, if it's going to be 16 agreeable to the working group. With your 17 permission, I'm about to do that, okay? 18 We've established that under your ground 19 rules, which have not been fully formally adopted, 20 that we can have two dissenting votes and still 21 obtain a consensus. And I want to be careful how 22 a characterize this. Steve, you have a question?

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 263 1 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Go ahead. I'll wait 2 for your characterization. 3 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. I want to be 4 careful of how this is characterized because I 5 think this is how I've done it previously and how 6 I just did it the last time. This is what I would 7 call the preliminary and minimum scope. This is 8 what we presume at a minimum will get done. It's 9 consistent with the test procedure work that's 10 underway, we hope, and will inform -- create a 11 pathway for analysis and also ongoing review of 12 other product types looking ahead. Okay? So 13 that's what I think this is. 14 So are we ready to see whether we agree 15 that this should be the preliminary and minimum 16 scope? All those in favor of accepting -- yes? 17 MR. FERNSTROM: A question. 18 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Gary. 19 MR. FERNSTROM: Thank you. Gary 20 Fernstrom, California IOUs. So does this proposed 21 preliminary minimum scope include the small 22 horsepower circulators?

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 264 1 MR. BROOKMAN: The preliminary minimum 2 scope that I'm referring to is that. 3 MR. FERNSTROM: All right. Well, I'd 4 just like to express the opinion before we vote 5 that I'm representing my client's not going to be 6 happy unless we agree to analyze circulators. 7 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. 8 MR. FERNSTROM: And it looks to me like 9 that is not part of this preliminary minimum 10 scope. 11 MR. BROOKMAN: I should have expanded my 12 statement. I think I elaborated more before that 13 that being the preliminary minimum scope that 14 other types of pumps will be subject to analysis 15 and review looking ahead, preferably, presumably 16 at our meeting in January including the circulator 17 pumps. 18 MR. FERNSTROM: All right. If that's a 19 condition of our agreement -- 20 MR. BROOKMAN: I think we got to look at 21 it. Everybody wants -- all you folks want to look 22 at it. There's no denying five or six individuals

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 265 1 want to look at a data source, that opportunity. 2 We got to do it. 3 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay. So I'm just a 4 little perplexed with the language -- 5 MR. BROOKMAN: Do you wish to offer new 6 language? 7 MR. FERNSTROM: Why don't we say this is 8 the preliminary minimum scope with the 9 understanding that we're going to be looking at 10 circulators? 11 MR. BROOKMAN: That' sounds good to me. 12 Yes, Steve. 13 MR. ROSENSTOCK: I'd like to expand. 14 That would be understanding circulators and other 15 pumping technologies as the working group sees 16 fit. 17 MR. BROOKMAN: That sounds better yet. 18 MR. FERNSTROM: Yes, yes. 19 MR. BROOKMAN: And I think that was what 20 I hoped to accomplish by this scoping description. 21 MR. ADIN: and my understanding is that 22 it's still also on the table whether we're going

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 266 1 to consider an efficiency metric for the pump plus 2 motor system, because this is just bare pumps, so 3

-- 4 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. 5 MR. ADIN: -- another element that we 6 still have yet to -- 7 MR. BROOKMAN: Resolve. 8 9 10 MR. ADIN: -- resolve. 11 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. 12 MR. ADIN: Right. 13 MR. BROOKMAN: And that's consistent 14 with the discussion we had for half the day 15 yesterday. Yes. 16 MR. ADIN: If you don't mind, if I can 17 ask one more question just to get a sense from the 18 group. Is it the sense of the group that we're 19 not interested in pursuing efficiency metrics and 20 evaluations of efficiency all the way out to a 21 variable-speed drive, because I've heard varying 22 views on that over the last two days and I don't

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 267 1 know -- I mean understood that this is all still 2 open. We could consider it. It's just what are 3 we going to talk about at the next meeting? Do we 4 need to gather data to form a more concrete 5 opinion on that issue? 6 MR. BROOKMAN: Well, let's hear from Al 7 first and then Steve. 8 MR. HUBER: I think on behalf of the 9 manufacturers, we originally proposed that. We 10 didn't have one in the middle called motors and 11 pumps because we didn't -- originally -- because 12 we didn't see any need for that since motors are 13 already -- 14 MR. BROOKMAN: These -- first of all, 15 you originally proposed what? 16 MR. HUBER: We proposed rating the bare 17 pump on efficiency and we proposed what we called 18 extended product which included the VFD. So we 19 are definitely on board with that. We think it's 20 -- it can return the highest energy savings 21 possible, much more than doing anything with the 22 pumps themselves, so yes, we're on board. We are

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 268 1 on board with that. I really appreciate you 2 raising that question. That's really critical. 3 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve, then coming back 4 to Doug. 5 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Well, I thought it was 6 kind of a separate question. I thought it was 7 just -- you were just kind of concentrating on a 8 minimum scope of a starting point for what we all 9 agreed would definitely be covered under this 10 negotiation and before your thing about what -- 11 you know, and just the bare pump category and this 12 is the -- you know, this is what we're definitely 13 going to cover in terms of the drive. 14 I think part of the other aspects are 15 getting the data back to say what's happening in 16 the marketplace with what's being sold out there. 17 MR. BROOKMAN: This is our fundamental 18 presumption here that we're going to establish 19 now, hopefully, the bare minimum that we're going 20 to take up and consider. And then we're going to 21 use the best data we can get; we're going to dig, 22 dig, dig to get it; we going to do proper analysis

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 269 1 and then we're going to consider the other issues 2 that we've discussed for the last day-and-a-half, 3 okay, including the three categories that Lucas 4 just laid out. 5 MR. ADIN: Right. So this is bare 6 minimum contingent upon decisions we may make 7 based on other data that we -- 8 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Now to Doug. 9 MR. POTTS: Yeah, Doug Potts, American 10 Water. Just a comment with regard to the use of 11 variable-speed drives, and this is probably beyond 12 the scope of today's discussion. We have plenty 13 of time for this in the future, but from our 14 perspective as the water industry, there are 15 applications where using VFDs will give us great 16 energy savings due to affinity laws. A lot of 17 (inaudible) where it actually does not give us -- 18 in fact, we think the ideal water system -- 19 because we have the benefit of elevated storage 20 tanks in our system, we think the ideal in terms 21 of efficiency is constant-speed pump, no VFD, and 22 you use the storage to respond to the fluctuation

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 270 1 and demand. So we actually try to educate folks 2 in our company to not just slap on VFDs. 3 I mean people like it because of the 4 operational flexibility, but there is an 5 efficiency loss, as I'm sure most of you know, 6 with the use of a VFD, maybe 2 to 3 percent at 7 full speed. So I just want to caution against 8 that. That's something 9

-- 10 MR. BROOKMAN: This seems like an 11 extended discussion -- 12 MR. POTTS: Right. 13 MR. BROOKMAN: -- and one we will have 14 fully over the span of months, fortunately. 15 Steve. 16 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve. And again, 17 getting back to Lucas, I think what this vote 18 means is in that bare -- going forward, we all 19 agree that under that bare pump diagram, that we 20 all agreed that under that bare pump diagram, that 21 bare pump efficiency area, that we agree that 22 these pumps all will be -- we're going to try to

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 271 1 figure out efficiency values for these. We're 2 agreed that this is the minimum, that we're 3 definitely going to do this going forward, that 4 this is just a first step, but we've all agree 5 that all of these, even if, you know, some 6 manufacturers might have qualms about one of these 7 pumps, well, too bad; we've all agreed that we're 8 going to go forward under the bare pump category 9 with these pump types under these code names; that 10 we are going to do our best to set an efficiency 11 value for this equipment under that bare pump type 12 of -- 13 MR. BROOKMAN: If we do nothing else, we 14 will create a term sheet for bare pumps that 15 addresses these. 16 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Yes. 17 MR. ADIN: I think that's right unless 18 anyone else has a dissenting view on that. It's 19 just what -- 20 MR. BROOKMAN: We haven't agreed but 21 that's my restatement of it. And then, in 22 addition, because several other issues have been

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 272 1 raised, moving from pumps to pumps and motors to 2 the whole system context and also the other 3 categories of pumps that are not included here 4 that have already been discussed, like circulators 5 and other things conceivably, we're going to do a 6 data dive. We're going to deep analysis. We're 7 going to do everything we know how to do to figure 8 out whether we should expand beyond this bare 9 minimum scope. Okay? 10 MR. FERNSTROM: Can I? So, Gary, 11 California IOUs. Is that statement explicit 12 enough in the record that that's, in effect, the 13 motion we're voting on and we don't need to write 14 it down? 15 MR. BROOKMAN: Well, I don't know. I 16 was curious about that myself. Do you wish for me 17 or someone to write it down or review -- I've 18 restated it. It will be in the transcript as 19 recorded. 20 MR. FERNSTROM: Well, it's a little 21 squirrely. On the other hand, you covered all the 22 points, so if we go back to the record, it's there

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 273 1 that -- 2 MR. BROOKMAN: I think we're going to -- 3 and I think in January, we're going to start to 4 revisit this. 5 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay. I'm happy. 6 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay? So -- and I'm 7 trying to balance between full explication and 8 moving us rapidly ahead here. So I'm going to 9 call the question -- Lucas. 10 MR. ADIN: Let me just offer a 11 suggestion. Well, it was actually offered by our 12 counsel, but that we'll go back to the record 13 after this meeting and just make sure we have a 14 clear, concise description of the scope, that 15 we'll put it out on the SharePoint or whatever, 16 make sure everybody has a copy. To the extent 17 anybody disagrees or thinks we've misconstrued 18 something, we'll deal with it at the next meeting. 19 MR. BROOKMAN: So the one thought that I 20 had -- I just want to be clear about this. We're 21 specifying by this vote that this is a bare 22 minimum and leaving the door open for additional

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 274 1 pumps to be considered. 2 MR. ROSENSTOCK: As you said, 3 preliminary minimum, yes. 4 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah, and our voting 5 rules say if there -- if we accept this, then 6 they're accepted. Our voting rules say three 7 dissents and we don't accept the new proposal. So 8 I could easily imagine we have more than three 9 industry folks that have an investment in this 10 that we could get three dissenting votes that 11 could block further consideration. I don't want 12 that to happen. 13 MR. POWERS: I have a question here 14 then. 15 MR. BROOKMAN: You understand my logic 16 here, right? I'm just going to the nuts and bolts 17 here. Go ahead. 18 MR. POWERS: I have a question. There 19 is high risk for that. I'm going to tell you why. 20 I hear what you're saying Steve. We shut down a 21 whole bunch of pump companies because of something 22 today - - just let me finish, okay -- that we

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 275 1 don't think through thoroughly and get all the 2 final data, we made a big mistake. 3 Number two -- let me finish -- number 4 two, we have a definition of a product type but in 5 the rules, Al listed off some flows, some 6 horsepower to make sure that's part of it, 7 whatever that is. 8 And then the third thing is that we're 9 not being clear on, there are products, I think, 10 already agreed upon, and maybe you all haven't 11 yet, maybe you want to, that are not going to be 12 considered even though they're so-called water 13 pumps, such as - - if I'm wrong, correct me -- 14 fire pumps, other things. 15 Let's make sure that's all -- so there's 16 three dynamics there. One is the basic product 17 type. Next is the limitations that -- and she 18 brought up a good point -- whatever that wants to 19 be. And the third thing is, you know, the 20 products within that water industry that we feel 21 that aren't appropriate, because if we don't 22 define that -- and I'll tell you, I do want to see

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 276 1 it in writing. 2 Because of the questions that this 3 group, the past two days has been bringing up, 4 we'll spend the next two days talking about what 5 we talked about last time. I'm not going to go 6 through that and you will get a rejection on my 7 vote, okay. And we won't get anywhere. Let's be 8 down to earth on this. 9 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So that was useful 10 because you tell us about -- 11 MR. POWERS: No sense killing it today. 12 MR. BROOKMAN: -- other elements of a 13 potential exceptions and complications. Steve. 14 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Hi. Steve Rosenstock. 15 Yeah, again, thank you for that. I think that we, 16 you know, we -- and I think -- I'm speaking for 17 myself -- I think other people -- we don't want to 18 have negative impacts on U.S. manufacturers. We 19 don't want to have negative impacts, whether 20 they're large or small. Ideally, is we're 21 agreeing to the scope before anyone's done a 22 manufacturer impact analysis because obviously,

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 277 1 the impact is really going to depend on what the 2 test procedure's going to be, and then what the 3 level of efficiency is going to be, and then how 4 much of a redesign that all manufacturers are 5 going to have to do and how much investment you're 6 going to have to make to meet the standards. 7 This is just saying -- this is just 8 defining that, again, for both large -- you know, 9 this is all in the Hydraulic Institute -- for the 10 large and small manufacturers, you've agreed to go 11 down this course for the pumps that are laid out 12 on the slide that, you know, once the ball starts 13 rolling, you know, the impact is -- there's going 14 to be the impact analysis, the economic analysis. 15 There is a possibility of possible negative 16 impacts on certain manufacturers. That's with any 17 rulemaking. That's with any standard. We want to 18 minimize that. We hope there's none but we want 19 to minimize it as much as possible. At least I 20 know a lot of people do. 21 But again, once this ball is rolling, 22 eventually there's going to be an efficiency

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 278 1 standard, and eventually there are going to be 2 some impacts on manufacturers, especially in terms 3 of test procedure, investments and -- 4 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 5 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. 6 MR. BROOKMAN: I want to press on here 7 and pardon me. So I raised a concern a moment 8 ago. I want to know what to do about this. It 9 seems to me as I interpret this, as I evaluate 10 this, adopting this bare preliminary minimum 11 scope, even giving the expansion that Chuck 12 provided and the caution, I want to make certain 13 that my promise, our promise to the efficiency 14 advocates that we'll consider other data and allow 15 other pumps to be included in this conversation 16 and included in the scope of this rulemaking, that 17 it doesn't get nixed by our decision-making rules. 18 It could easily be the case that we come 19 up with some additional pump types. There's good 20 analysis to support that. There are energy 21 efficiency gains that are there. And whether a 22 proposal is made that it be included in the scope,

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 279 1 we move beyond the preliminary minimum scope and 2 we include blah-blah-blah-blah-blah-blah, and then 3 all of a sudden, on every occasion, there's more 4 than three votes to nix it, what do we do about 5 that? Maybe you can help us with this, Betsy. 6 MS. KOHL: I don't quite understand 7 (inaudible). 8 MR. BROOKMAN: Well, the ground rules 9 for the negotiated rulemaking -- for this 10 committee, which we haven't fully endorsed yet but 11 our definition for consensus is that three 12 individuals voting no block a consensus. That is 13 an agreement and that applies to the preliminary 14 agreements, the minor agreements and presumably 15 the ultimate agreement so that if we adopt this as 16 a preliminary and minimum scope and then other 17 folks come forward with additional proposals, then 18 three individuals in this room could block that 19 from being effectuated. Gary. 20 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary Fernstrom, 21 California IOUs. Well, that's the game. You 22 know, if we can't reach agreement on what we're

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 280 1 going to look at for various reasons, we might 2 just as well pack up and go home anyway. 3 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Well, okay. So 4 then I'm raising this caution. You understand 5 why, right? 6 MR. HUBER: Well, I think everyone's 7 aware of that. 8 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah, okay. 9 MR. HUBER: That's always a possibility 10 and, you know, I'm not as worried as he is about 11 this, because this is a preliminary vote on a 12 preliminary scope and I have a right to change my 13 vote next time we vote on something, so I'm not 14 real worried about it. 15 MR. BROOKMAN: So lets' do this then. 16 I'm going to call the question. All those in 17 favor of accepting this bare preliminary minimum 18 scope -- 19 MR. DOE: We're missing (inaudible). 20 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Well, when he 21 comes back, we'll ambush him. 22 MR. DOE: (Inaudible) we'll consider

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 281 1 that an absence. 2 MR. BROOKMAN: All those in -- 3 MR. HUBER: You want to include the 4 descriptions that we all went over, the 5 temperature and the horsepower and all that. 6 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 7 (Crosstalk) 8 MR. BROOKMAN: So I'm asking for a vote 9 on the following: The Hydraulic Institute chart, 10 which is no longer up there -- the pump types, 11 that would include the pump products defined as 12 following: Clean water only, only standard pumps 13 of non- engineered or non-specialized design, only 14 clean water including gray water, 26 GPM and 15 greater up to a maximum of 459 feet TDH, that is a 16 maximum 459 feet TDH, horsepower range 1 to 200, 17 pumps designed to operate in a temperature range 18 from minus 10 C. 19 to plus 120 C. Note: 295 -- 20 MR. HUBER: No. Forget that. Don't 21 read that. 22 MR. HANDZEL: That's a clarification of

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 282 1 (inaudible). Don't confuse it. 2 MR. BROOKMAN: With all the discussion 3 we've had so far, I'm calling the question. All 4 those in favor of accepting this as our 5 preliminary minimum bare scope, please signify by 6 raising your hand. And we have three votes in 7 dissent. So we do not have a consensus 8 surrounding the scope? 9 MR. DOE: Ask if any votes are being 10 abstained. 11 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Do we have any 12 abstentions? We have one two abstentions. Okay 13 so we now have -- raise your hands again in favor. 14 Eleven in favor. We have one no vote and -- 15 MR. FERNSTROM: (Inaudible) change the 16 vote. I want to find out what these other people 17 are thinking. Can I have an opportunity -- 18 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, you can. You can 19 talk for a few minutes. 20 MR. FERNSTROM: Why don't you give us 21 some time to -- 22 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, just -- yeah, or

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 283 1 you can do it -- you can either do it in caucus or 2 you can do it -- 3 MS. MAUER: Can I just ask a question. 4 What are we gaining from having this vote today? 5 MR. STARR: Yeah, that's what I'm 6 unclear about. 7 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 8 MR. STARR: (Inaudible) we're just going 9 to come back and consider the information next 10 week. 11 MR. BROOKMAN: I think -- right. It -- 12 MR. STARR: Are we setting up a game so 13 that we can approve some of the scope and not 14 others, because what did I gain out of that? I'm 15 confused? What value does that have to me when 16 I've requested information and I have gotten it? 17 Then I going to vote on scope that we probably do 18 agree on, but some of the scope that we don't 19 agree on, I mean, doesn't -- you know, I'm trying 20 to understand why I'm going to be -- why does it 21 makes sense to me. 22 MR. ECKMAN: Yes. Doug says that this

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 284 1 puts us in jeopardy of not incrementing the scope. 2 And so, you know, why we have full faith that we 3 can have that discussion, we have no assurance 4 that it wouldn't be nixed. So we're at a 5 disadvantage here with not having that information 6 yet in front of us to determine what the magnitude 7 is. We may fully agree with you in the end. 8 MR. STARR: And plus this is statutory 9 stuff required by the Department of Energy to do 10 anyway, so it's -- even if we did, as a group, 11 decide not to do it, it becomes kind of question 12 of whether you're carrying out your -- the 13 requirement 14

-- 15 MR. ECKMAN: Yeah don't -- don't take 16 this to not -- that we're not in agreement that we 17 sought to do this. It's just formalizing it in 18 the form of a vote before we actually have the 19 information to decide whether other products ought 20 to be analyzed through the process. 21 MR. BROOKMAN: Go ahead, Gary. 22 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary Fernstrom,

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 285 1 California IOUs. Well, my understanding was 2 different. My understanding was at a minimum, 3 we're going to agree to look at these things and 4 they include not only the stuff up there but some 5 other things we've discussed, like circulators. 6 And it doesn't preclude us from looking at stuff 7 outside of this but at a minimum, we can have 8 assurance, as we move forward, we look at least 9 this. 10 MR. STARR: But you'll be voting on the 11 scope each time and so you'll be trying to expand 12 the scope but you won't -- you'll have three 13 people that are not interested in expanding the 14 scope. That's where the problem lies. 15 MR. FERNSTROM: Yes, but at some point 16 we've got to agree on what the scope is. We can't 17 fail to agree on it and leave it open-ended. 18 MR. STARR: How about when we have the 19 data next time or by the time -- I mean we're not 20 going to change our mind on this stuff. We 21 already agree. So I don't see why not the first 22 time we get here, the next --

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 286 1 MR. FERNSTROM: So what products, for 2 example, are there that we might want to include 3 in the scope that we don't have the data on that 4 aren't explicitly recognized here as products that 5 we're going to get the data on? 6 MR. STARR: You can get the data on it. 7 It doesn't mean it's going to get approved 8 regardless of what that data is. 9 MR. FERNSTROM: But my question was what 10 products? 11 MR. BROOKMAN: Go ahead, Tom. And then 12 I'm coming back to Al. 13 MR. ECKMAN: If we were to vote that we 14 would exclude products after we found out the data 15 rather than include products, then I'd be more 16 comfortable, so. 17 MR. BROOKMAN: The way I tried to state 18 this was bare minimum plus other issues to be 19 considered, right, other pump types to be 20 considered. 21 MR. ECKMAN: Mine is jurisprudence 22 oriented, innocent until proven guilty so include

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 287 1 it until proven not worth doing. Go ahead, Al. 2 MR. HUBER: I want to address something 3 Louis said that -- I think we're getting into an 4 attitude that it's us against you and we're not. 5 I want you to understand that. And you heard out 6 of one of the largest manufacturers of circulators 7 that they're not against the regulation of 8 circulators. Okay? So I'd appreciate it if you 9 guys would quit doing that, because we're not over 10 here trying to block -- you're assuming that we're 11 going to stand up and block everything you want to 12 do, and we're not going to do that. That's not 13 why we're here. We're here in good faith now. So 14 I would appreciate it if you would assume that 15 until we prove you wrong. 16 MR. STARR: Well, in that case then, I 17 don't see why we can't vote -- wait until we have 18 the information next week. What's the difference 19 if we decide on the scope right now or the first 20 five minutes when we have our next meeting? I 21 mean -- 22 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas, you want to --

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 288 1 MR. STARR: -- I don't get the 2 difference. 3 MR. ADIN: I don't know that it matters 4 that much personally. And to be perfectly honest 5 with you, I didn't have it in mind at the 6 beginning of this that we would vote on scope 7 today. I think we got to this bare minimum and 8 that seemed reasonable. But, really, the only 9 reason that the subject came up was to see how 10 comfortable we were with dates, because where we 11 ultimately need to approve today is this. So 12 that's really the end point of today, and so from 13 my standpoint, I'm perfectly comfortable waiting 14 on -- 15 MR. BROOKMAN: So maybe what we could do 16 - - maybe we could just note, as the record would 17 note in complete detail, that most everyone in the 18 room is comfortable thinking about this last 19 proposal, this group of pumps and these 20 characteristics as being bare minimums even though 21 we might not chose to accept that today, vote on 22 it as our scope, but there's a presumption going

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 289 1 forward that those listed there would be sort of a 2 bare minimum product for which this negotiating 3 committee would produce, what do you call them -- 4 term sheet -- thank you -- for and then maybe we 5 simply wait until the next time we meet and take a 6 look at the data that's coming in in the interim. 7 Lucas. 8 MR. ADIN: Yeah, and I mean Tom's point 9 is a really good one. Like I understand his 10 viewpoint completely and thinking about it that 11 way. I mean, you know, if the members as a whole 12 are comfortable waiting and I think, you know, 13 probably because of that viewpoint, which to some 14 extent I do hold myself, waiting on voting on 15 scope specifically -- 16 MR. BROOKMAN: So Tom's proposal is 17 essentially we're not going to act on this today, 18 is essentially the default or rule of thumb is all 19 potential pumps are in and excluding them would 20 take a consensus vote? Okay. We'll deal with 21 that later. 22 But let me say this. We made good

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 290 1 progress today. We gained a lot of round on a 2 potential scope, a bare minimum scope, which is 3 not to be scoffed -- 4 MR. ECKMAN: For the record, I don't 5 feel in opposition. I mean I don't -- I think 6 we're all in good faith here as far as I'm 7 concerned. Just from a process standpoint, my 8 view is that we exclude them when we have 9 information to exclude them rather than include 10 them. I understand where you guys come. The 11 information is already in your heads. You know 12 that solid stuff. I'm good with that. That's not 13 my issue. I want to know whether there's other 14 solid stuff out there. 15 MR. POWERS: The other thing is we got 16 to be context as if we had this broad a grouping, 17 whatever it ends up being, can we get it done by 18 August, which we agreed on. So now all of a 19 sudden, we have a variable here that could impact 20 those dates. 21 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. Yeah. 22 MR. POWERS: You know, be careful. You

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 291 1 know, whatever it ends up being, it could become 2 an anomaly and that becomes a problem. 3 MR. BROOKMAN: I'm with you. So we walk 4 into this with our eyes wide open surrounding 5 these realities. 6 Now, I'm very eager to press on with the 7 next subject. Maybe Joanna and Steve, you could 8 both agree -- 9 MS. MAUER: I was just going to clarify. 10 I got a little nervous when we started -- you were 11 listing the parameters just because I'm a little 12 bit confused about whether, you know -- do they 13 apply to all the categories and I just want to 14 have a better understanding before we're voting on 15 those specifics. 16 MR. BROOKMAN: So maybe by the time we 17 meet in January, it'll be possible to have 18 something akin to a written proposal that will be 19 more descriptive and everybody will have a chance 20 to think about it or each caucus could bring a 21 written proposal and we see if we can arrive at a 22 more complete understanding of potential scope.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 292 1 Here's what I want to do. Steve, finish 2 us off in this segment. 3 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Well, I was just going 4 to say, you know, again, talking globally here, in 5 the framework document, it said, "DOE is 6 considering excluding self-priming pumps and pumps 7 designed for firefighting applications." Has DOE 8 looked at it anymore and is there any other -- I'm 9 just saying, you know, if we're starting that 10 everything's in until we excluded, it seemed like 11 DOE -- you know, fire -- in the rulemaking on 12 motors, DOE did not set any new standards for fire 13 pump motors because it was not economically 14 justified. You know, it was like 10,000-year 15 paybacks or something like that, so it didn't set 16 new standards for fire pump motors. 17 So I don't know if DOE has any more 18 information about self-priming pumps or I'll say 19 fire pumps, for lack of better words, in terms of 20 should those products -- should we consider 21 excluding those products as well. 22 MR. ADIN: Generally speaking, I don't

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 293 1 think we have enough information right now to make 2 a determination like that. 3 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Thank you. 4 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So here's what I'd 5 like to do next. I'd like to adopt these ground 6 rules noting that -- also, I'd like to take one 7 scan through for those of you that wanted to, as 8 you, Steve, did, take a look at the redline 9 version and see if we're comfortable with the 10 dates, noting that they may be preliminary, noting 11 they may need to be reconsidered, that Lucas 12 floated this morning. 13 And then I'd like to accept these ground 14 rules, adopt these ground rules as ones that will 15 guide the work of this working group. Can you go 16 to the redline version, please? He's got it up 17 there. So we just start at the top. 18 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Doug, if you scroll 19 down, it is redlined. 20 MR. BROOKMAN: There we go. Okay. So 21 the first one is parties to negotiation: working 22 group consists of those individuals whom the U.S.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 294 1 Department of Energy has appointed. That's pretty 2 straightforward. 3 The second one is in (e), additional 4 organizational interests may join the working 5 group after negotiations have begun with the 6 concurrence of the working group and given ASRAC 7 and DOE approval. That's consistent with the 8 discussion we had surrounding the authorities that 9 exist. 10 Attendance: Each working group member 11 agrees to make a good faith effort to attend in 12 person every session of the negotiating group. If 13 attendance in person is not feasible, attendance - 14 - that's a more clearer -- it's just a 15 clarification. 16 Quorum: This emerged in discussion. 17 Before any voting may occur, the working group 18 must establish a quorum of at least two-thirds of 19 the original or approved working group members 20 including remote attendance. So that's a new 21 provision and we were even willing to effectuate 22 it this last truncated vote. So we know it's

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 295 1 operational. Okay. 2 MR. POTTS: Just a question about that. 3 I don't think it will be a problem but just in 4 case there's a question in the future, by our 5 count yesterday, 11 out of 17 was two-thirds. So 6 we are rounding down? Do we need to clarify that 7 in this document so there's no question later on? 8 I mean I think we agreed to take the number 11 out 9 but rounding down to the nearest whole number, you 10 know, something like, just so there's no debate in 11 the future? 12 MR. BROOKMAN: We need a 13 parliamentarian, I think, or somebody. I don't 14 know myself. I don't. Any additional thoughts on 15 this subject? 16 MS. WALTNER: I think it would make 17 sense to add a statement like that, rounding down 18 to the nearest whole person just to be clear, 19 because I would interpret two-thirds of 17 as 12 20 personally. 21 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. We can do that. 22 MS. WALTNER: And maybe the size of the

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 296 1 -- you know, if we have members drop out of the 2 group, then it just clarifies. 3 MR. ROSENSTOCK: This is Steven 4 Rosenstock. Why don't you just say rounding off 5 to the nearest whole person just in case the size 6 changes and it's, you know, 11.66 instead of 7 11.33, you round up to 12. 8 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 9 MR. ROSENSTOCK: You know, round off to 10 the nearest whole number, not person. 11 MS. WALTNER: By the rules of rounding. 12 MR. ROSENSTOCK: By the rules of 13 rounding as done by Isaac Newton and Descartes and 14 whoever else the other famous mathematicians out 15 there. 16 MR. DOE: Where do we go then? 17 MR. BROOKMAN: We'll let the -- 18 MR. ROSENSTOCK: And Pythagoris, excuse 19 me. 20 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. We're going to 21 move on now to consensus. (b), which is now the 22 consensus clause; we had considerable discussion

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 297 1 on this; that is the working group will operate by 2 consensus which for these purposes means no more 3 than two negative votes. And we've already 4 clarified in the proceeding clause that a quorum 5 requires a certain number of members being present 6 and voting. So everybody seems comfortable with 7 that today. 8 Subgroups: We just clarified -- 9 MR. FERNSTROM: Doug? 10 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. 11 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. Could we 12 go back to consensus? I just want to make sure I 13 understand that, because we were talking about 14 three negative votes yesterday blocking consensus, 15 and that's consistent with what this says right? 16 MR. BROOKMAN: I think it is. 17 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay. 18 MR. BROOKMAN: That was my reading of 19 it. Everybody can read it themselves. No more 20 than two negative votes, so three negative votes. 21 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay. Thank you very 22 much.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 298 1 MR. HANDZEL: So two (inaudible) -- 2 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Looking at Betsy. 3 MR. HANDZEL: (Inaudible) -- 4 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, moving on. We've 5 inserted the number 15: As needed, DOE will 6 provide appropriate support for the working group 7 subgroups which may include -- I think that's a 8 useful clarification. Subgroups are not 9 authorized to make decisions for the working 10 group. We had good discussion on this and we 11 decided that was sufficient and that if subgroups 12 need direction or guidance, that it will be 13 provided by the working group. 14 Subgroup meetings will be held between 15 the full sessions. All working group members will 16 be notified of all subgroup meetings. I think 17 that's good. 18 And then deadlines: These are the 19 deadlines, the dates that that we, looking at 20 other events and deadlines for DOE's submission to 21 OMB, practical we hope, and we'll see how they fit 22 with the scope as it emerges beginning next

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 299 1 meeting. So the term sheet to ASRAC, hopefully by 2 July 15, which allows time for our back-and-forth 3 for termination of the group by September 1. 4 Comments on that? Everybody's okay with 5 that? 6 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. We're okay with 7 that. Okay. And then that is term sheet. 8 MS. WALTNER: That was the language 9 specific to transformers. 10 MR. ADIN: That doesn't apply to this 11 rule. 12 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, right. Right. 13 Okay. Good. Thank you. 14 No negative comments: Each party, 15 except individuals that have previously voted 16 negatively on a final agreement, that's consistent 17 with the conversation we had. If you voted 18 negatively, you're not bound by that provision. 19 And then finally, no challenge except -- 20 right -- except individuals -- same clause. 21 And if you want to get rid of me, you 22 may recommend my dismissal and you can do that

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 300 1 beginning today. 2 (Laughter) 3 MR. BROOKMAN: That's just a 4 clarification. Meeting summaries: In the absence 5 of consensus, parties shall not be bound by 6 positions taken or accepted during these 7 negotiations. 8 And bottom, in red, both the meeting 9 summary and transcript will be made available to 10 the public and included in the rulemaking docket. 11 That's consistent with current practice and best 12 practice as well. That's it. Thank you, 13 Jeremiah. 14 So then are final comments before we try 15 to accept these ground rules? Okay. Then I'm 16 going to call the question. All those in favor of 17 accepting these ground rules, the ground rules 18 which will guide and bind participants in this 19 working group, raise your hands and say, aye. 20 (Whereupon, chorus of ayes.) 21 MR. BROOKMAN: I'm casting my eyes 22 around the room and I would note that we have all

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 301 1 members present and everyone has signified by 2 saying aye. Thanks to all of you. That's our 3 second agreement. Thank you. 4 (Whereupon, a vote was held and the 5 working group ground rules were 6 accepted.) 7 (Applause) 8 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Well, I'm pleased 9 about that and I'm really pleased about the 10 foregoing conversation for a variety of reasons. 11 One, zeroed in on some scoping stuff that was very 12 meaningful, meaningful to a couple of different 13 caucuses here. 14 And also, I was especially pleased that 15 individuals didn't feel like they needed to go 16 along to get along -- that's not a useful thing to 17 do in a negotiation like this -- that they spoke 18 up when it was necessary to speak up. And I think 19 we obtained clarity and also some explication 20 surrounding good faith which I think are very 21 useful to do. Okay. So I thank you for that, that 22 bit of disclosure.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 302 1 Now, what else do we need to do? Oh, 2 scheduling. Let me hand this out. I made a Xerox 3 copy. This is six months beginning in July, just 4 so you've got it, because I don't think anybody's 5 -- because yesterday I gave you a copy which is 6 January through June. Did we hear back from 7 Brenda? 8 (Crosstalk) 9 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Doug, this is Steve. 10 We're supposed to be done by July 15th, so I'm not 11 sure why we need the -- 12 MR. BROOKMAN: I'm just handing it out. 13 We may wish to just, you know, pencil a few dates 14 on the calendar. 15 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. 16 MR. BROOKMAN: I'm not sure where this 17 discussion is going to go, Steve. I'm not going 18 delimit it here at the front end. 19 Okay, so yesterday I think we pretty 20 much zeroed in on mid-week, two days, especially 21 in January, here in the Forrestal Building, and we 22 zeroed in on January 28 and 29. I hope that

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 303 1 you've now had a chance to check your calendars 2 and that's going to be a workable date looking 3 ahead. Not? No? Tom? Is that -- does that week 4 work for you or are you -- 5 MR. ECKMAN: (Inaudible). Yeah, 6 probably. The next week works. 7 MR. BROOKMAN: The first week of 8 February? See, I'm thinking about the analysis 9 that needs to get done. No? And -- 10 MR. ECKMAN: (Inaudible) 11 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. Thank you. Yeah. 12 And Jeremiah, fortunately, is clever enough to 13 remind me about alternates, that if you can't 14 attend, and we're all so busy -- especially these 15 first few months, I expect we're going to have a 16 few conflicts. Tom, could you listen in on the 17 phone or have an alternate? 18 MR. ECKMAN: Yeah, probably. 19 MR. BROOKMAN: Probably. Because it 20 seemed like most everyone was available 28, 29, 21 and we know we can get this room in January 28 and 22 29.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 304 1 MR. ECKMAN: I can do 30, 31. 2 MR. BROOKMAN: You could do 30, 31. 3 MR. ECKMAN: (Inaudible). 4 MS. WALTNER: For what it's worth, 30, 5 31's better for me, too. 6 MR. BROOKMAN: I didn't hear you, Meg. 7 MS. WALTNER: Oh. I just said 30 and 31 8 of January would be better for me. 9 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Well, let's get a 10 show of hands. How many -- if we're considering 11 28, 29 and then 30, 31, let's get a show of hands 12 which two days consecutively work better for how 13 many people. So if it's better for you to do 28, 14 29, raise your hands. Really? So it's better for 15 virtually everyone to do 30, 31? Okay, we're 16 changing the date. And I need to find -- we got 17 the 30th in this room and we'll probably find 18 another room here in DOE to do the 31st, so please 19 mark that on your calendar. That is now an 20 established date. 21 So then how does the final week in 22 February look to everyone? That would be 24

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 305 1 through 28 and presumably we're looking again -- 2 we're trying for mid-week, 25, 26, 27; how do 3 those dates look? February 25 -- no, Meg? 4 MS. WALTNER: I have a conflict on the 5 25th and 26th. 6 MR. POWERS: I have a conflict 7 (inaudible). 8 MR. BROOKMAN: How does the 27th and 9 28th of February look? 10 MS. DOE: (Inaudible). 11 MR. BROOKMAN: She does? Is it a hard 12 conflict? 13 MS. DOE: (Inaudible). 14 MR. BROOKMAN: You don't know. 15 MR. POWERS: I have a conflict on the 16 27th and 28th. 17 MR. BROOKMAN: 27th, 28th. You want to 18 try for the first week of March? Or we can shift 19 it one week forward, try -- would it be too early 20 if we went one, two -- it would only be two weeks 21 as interim if we tried the week of the 17th of 22 February. No.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 306 1 How many of you would need to find an 2 alternate if we held it on the final week of 3 February? 4 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Which days? 5 MR. BROOKMAN: Pardon me. If we did 25, 6 26 or 27, 28, I'm not sure how to parse these. If 7 we did February 25, 26, how many of you would not 8 be able to attend? Three. Okay, that's 9 unfortunate. That' a start. 10 If we did 26, 27, how many of you would 11 not be able to attend? Three. 12 How many -- 13 MR. ROSENSTOCK: (Off mic) just be a 14 half. 15 MR. BROOKMAN: And if we did 27, 28 of 16 February, how many of you would not be able to 17 attend? Just one and then one of our principal 18 analysts which we need to figure out some way to 19 accommodate that. So with regret, I think we're 20 going to schedule. 21 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Did you explore when 22 the (off mic) --

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 307 1 MR. BROOKMAN: I didn't explore Monday 2 because that requires people to travel on Sunday 3 and that's -- 4 MS. KOHL: Same thing with (off mic) -- 5 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah, well -- but I think 6 most people are going to get out of here on Friday 7 afternoon in time to get home. 8 MS. WALTNER: I'm just -- is the first 9 week of March -- do people feel like that's 10 pushing things too long or were there other 11 conflicts, because February is a short month. HI 12 has their week-long meeting, feel like that's 13 going to feel pretty compressed but -- 14 MR. BROOKMAN: What is it again? 15 MS. KOHL: Whether the first week -- if 16 we should look to the first week of March. 17 MR. BROOKMAN: I would definitely 18 consider first week of March. How does that work 19 for folks? First week of March? Okay, so yes, 20 first week of March? Okay. So then should we try 21 for mid-week, say Tuesday, Wednesday, the 4th, 22 5th? Yes? Going once. Yes. March 4th, 5th.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 308 1 Okay. So that takes that away. Good work, Meg. 2 Thank you. 3 So now we have established January 30, 4 31 and March 4, 5. Now, a -- 5 MR. HANDZEL: Doug, I was just going to 6 say the only problem now is you just pushed us 7 into April, first week, which is a spring break 8 week, so you just -- so I would say that we have 9 to be careful now that we didn't just hurt 10 ourselves in April, so just to make that point. 11 MR. BROOKMAN: So it might even be that 12 with -- if we meet early in March, that we could - 13 - is it, I guess, all of April is spring break or? 14 (Off mic discussion) 15 MR. POWERS: If you're that early in 16 March, could we then continue on towards the end 17 of March? 18 MR. BROOKMAN: That's what I was 19 thinking. We had already considered maybe if we 20 stuck with the original schedule i-- 21 MR. ROSENSTOCK: 25th and 26th? 22 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 309 1 MR. HANDZEL: But that's like two weeks 2 between the meeting, so it's really -- 3 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Three weeks. 4 MR. HANDZEL: -- tight -- 5 MR. BROOKMAN: That is pretty tight. 6 There's no doubt. 7 MR. POWERS: But to maintain the 8 schedule of September -- I mean July -- 9 MR. BROOKMAN: But also -- 10 FEMALE SPEAKER: (Off mic.) 11 MR. BROOKMAN: I like the potential for 12 us to just keep, you know -- 13 MR. HANDZEL: We (inaudible) the 26th, 14 27th. 15 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah? 16 MR. POWERS: Two times in the March of 17 Ides, that probably get -- 18 MR. BROOKMAN: 26, 27 has been floated. 19 How about that? March 26th, 27, yes? Yes, yes? 20 Okay. We're doing it, March 26th, 27. And let me 21 note it's conceivable as we get a little further 22 out that we might entertain a meeting at one of

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 310 1 your other locations, but I'm not sure DOE has 2 budget to do such a thing so we'll have to see if 3 that's possible. 4 MR. POWERS: And also, Doug, just for 5 view, I'd also like to recommend if it's possible, 6 if we're two days and people want to stay over a 7 third, one of our larger manufacturing plants is 8 45 minutes north of here that has almost all those 9 products, you know, that maybe just for a two-hour 10 tour, ask your questions, look at them, see them, 11 touch them, see the site again. I'm not trying to 12 take away from these guys. They got better plants 13 than even ours that I'm aware of, that I've been 14 to but if may be beneficial if -- and all my 15 compadres from competition, no problem. I mean we 16 could just, you know, just see a plant. 17 MR. BROOKMAN: So in January, we can 18 explore. I think that a lot of folks would 19 appreciate a site visit. 20 MR. POWERS: This is a plant of 400 21 people and $107 million in revenue. It's a large 22 plant and it fabricates, welds machines. You

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 311 1 know, there's a 120 machine tools. It would show 2 you a lot, you know, for what it's worth. 3 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So we've 4 established -- I'm going to be repetitive. 5 MR. POWERS: Now it doesn't have to be 6 the January meeting. Whatever you all feel 7 comfortable with. 8 MR. FERNSTROM: I was going to say as 9 we're planning this out, maybe we ought to select 10 a day for this opportunity. 11 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Well, so just to 12 confirm, we have January 30-31 now inked on the 13 books, March 4-5 are inked on the books. We've 14 now selected March 26-27 as the follow-on meeting 15 to maintain the momentum. Would you like to do 16 this on the following Friday or the preceding 17 Tuesday? What would be most convenient for you? 18 MR. POWERS: Well, to be safe, the bad 19 weather is January-February. No sense fighting 20 the snow or not knowing whether it will or not, 21 but if you want to do it at the second meeting 22 actually, which is our third meeting, maybe the

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 312 1 March 3rd or the March 6th might be better weather 2 wise. 3 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 4 (Inaudible) 5 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. This would be a 6 plant tour, a site visit. 7 MR. POWERS: March -- it's right on the 8 fringe of it, the tail end, yeah, but you just 9 don't know. It could be either one. Whatever you 10 all think. I mean here's my point. I'm open to 11 all three. I'm just saying, you know, would we be 12 far enough along to be -- the purpose would be to 13 see equipment and see what's going on and see the 14 kinds, not what we're doing specifically but see 15 the stuff. Would that be beneficial? 16 MR. ADIN: I suspect that would be 17 beneficial at any time, personally, but I'm not 18 sure it matters. I don't know if other people -- 19 MR. BROOKMAN: So would it be more 20 convenient -- I'm thinking that if you're going to 21 do it on the following -- contiguous to the 4th, 22 5th, that the 6th might be better because then

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 313 1 those folks flying in from the West Coast, they 2 could do a half-day or three-quarters of a day on 3 Thursday and get out of here and go home. 4 MR. POWERS: And all I recommend, the 5 BWI Airport is 45 minutes from there, so if you're 6 flying out, maybe you want to flying out of there 7 instead of going way down to Dulles. The city is 8 called Taneytown, Maryland. It's about 9 miles 9 south of Gettysburg. It's right near the fringe 10 of the Maryland-Pennsylvania border, but 11 literally, I'd say an hour from here -- 12 MR. BROOKMAN: There are direct flights 13 on Southwest out of Oakland. 14 MR. POWERS: Out of BWI? 15 MR. BROOKMAN: To BWI. 16 MR. POWERS: BWI is a huge Southwest 17 Airline hub -- 18 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So -- 19 MR. HANDZEL: Doug, excuse me one 20 second? 21 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. 22 MR. HANDZEL: I'm just going to point

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 314 1 out again the Chicago opportunity -- 2 MR. BROOKMAN: Oh, yeah. 3 MR. HANDZEL: -- to do all the things 4 that he's talking about plus circulators. 5 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 6 MR. HANDZEL: So, you know, I mean, 7 Lucas, could we assign Lucas to look at -- can we 8 have a -- you know, just because it's going to 9 short the trip for the West Coast people, so I 10 don't want to derail -- 11 MR. BROOKMAN: No, no. I think it's a 12 great idea. 13 MR. HANDZEL: I just don't want to 14 dismiss it either. 15 MR. BROOKMAN: I think it's a great 16 idea, maybe do both -- 17 MR. HANDZEL: Yeah. 18 MR. BROOKMAN: Maybe have a later one. 19 The only thing is the DOE says their ability to -- 20 MR. HANDZEL: Well, no, that's why I'm 21 saying just -- somebody from DOE has to come back 22 and say --

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 315 1 MR. BROOKMAN: So here's the main thing. 2 I just want to make sure you've got, in ink, on 3 your calendars March 4-5, and March 26-27, 4 location to be determined. And then maybe we look 5 at a site visit on March 6th. And then we'll see, 6 Mark, how -- 7 MR. HANDZEL: That's fine. 8 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah, because -- no, I 9 think everybody would like to see that. 10 MR. POWERS: I'm perfectly happy doing 11 Chicago. I don't want to -- even if we want to go 12 down South or somewhere. 13 MR. ECKMAN: Or go to Georgia. The 14 weather's better -- 15 MR. FERNSTROM: So this is Gary. I'd 16 just like to observe about the circulator thing. 17 We keep seeming to go around and around about it. 18 MR. ADIN: I can't believe we made it 19 this long without that joke coming out. 20 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, and thanks. 21 Looking to April now. April 20th is Easter and if 22 we did the week after Easter, that would be short

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 316 1 on -- maybe we should try for the final week of 2 April into the first week of May if those dates -- 3 MR. DOE: No. 4 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah, it would be 28, 29, 5 30, May 1, 2. It would be like 29, 30 would be 6 the preferred dates. 7 MR. DOE: I can't. 8 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes? 9 MR. DOE: No. 10 MR. BROOKMAN: I see a few thumbs up. 11 MR. DOE: No. 12 (Off mic) 13 MR. BROOKMAN: ACEEE? 14 MR. DOE: There are some ICC hearings 15 that week as well. 16 MR. BROOKMAN: You're bad? Does it work 17 later in the week? Later in the week is also bad? 18 MR. DOE: Yeah. 19 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Shall we look at 20 the week -- 21 MR. DOE: Doug, I was going to say why 22 not like -- I know it's -- why not like the 23rd,

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 317 1 24th or 24th -- 2 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. That's what I was 3 about to suggest. Look at the week immediately 4 following Easter, 23-24, or 22-23 of April. 5 MR. DOE: (Off mic) 6 MR. BROOKMAN: You can? 7 MR. DOE: No. 8 MR. BROOKMAN: You're stuck that week? 9 MR. DOE: (Off mic) 10 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. If we're meeting, 11 as we have scheduled now in ink on your calendar, 12 March 26-27, I think we could go perhaps to the 13 first week of May, which is May 5 through 9. How 14 does that look for folks? If we say May 6-7, say? 15 No? 16 (Off mic) 17 MS. WALTNER: I'm on vacation the first 18 two weeks of May and half of the week of April, so 19 I'm going to make things difficult here. I might 20 just have to find an alternative. 21 MR. BROOKMAN: Once again, we may -- 22 we're going to get to the point where you may need

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 318 1 to send an alternate. How many can't make it May 2 6-7? Four, that's a lot. How many can't make it 3 April 29-30? Two. April 29-30 is looking 4 promising. 5 MR. POTTS: Is May 7 being considered? 6 MR. DOE: What happened to 23-24? 7 MR. BROOKMAN: Two were missing for 8 April 29-30. May 7 and 8, how many would be 9 missing? We know Meg's missing. Just two? 10 MS. WALTNER: Sorry, what date? 11 MR. BROOKMAN: May 7 and 8. Okay. So 12 there are more of us in there. So I'm going to 13 suggest check your calendar one more time. April 14 29-30 which gives us a full month after our March 15 26-27 date. Okay. 16 MR. DOE: Can I propose April 30 to May 17 1st, Wednesday-Thursday instead or was there a 18 conflict? 19 MR. BROOKMAN: How does April 30-May 1 20 work? How many have a conflict there? Two. And 21 we had three. Does it make any difference whether 22 it's 29-30 or 30 and May 1st?

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 319 1 MR. HUBER: So I can be here the 29th 2 and 30th. I would just have to be a few hours 3 late because of some child care issues with my 4 wife's work schedule, things like that. 5 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 6 MR. HUBER: If that's acceptable to the 7 group, I could do that. 8 MR. BROOKMAN: I think we're going to 9 have to accept that sort of thing as we go along. 10 Okay. So now take another look at your calendars. 11 April 29-30 is the suggested date and I'm about to 12 confirm it. Okay. April 29-30. You all are 13 doing really well. We're almost there. 14 So looking at May, that would be -- 15 MR. DOE: (Inaudible) 26th of 16 (inaudible). 17 MR. BROOKMAN: The 26th or 27th or 28th, 18 in there? I would have a preference that we do 19 this at least mid-week to late-week if that's 20 possible, like 28-29? No? Earlier in the week is 21 better or - - yeah? Like -- 22 MR. DOE: Which (inaudible) are you on?

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 320 1 MR. BROOKMAN: I'm looking May 26 2 through 3 30 -- 4 MR. HUBER: I'm out anything from the 5 19th through the 30th. 6 MR. BROOKMAN: 19th through the 30th, 7 okay. How many cannot -- let's just choose a few 8 dates. May 27 and 28, how many cannot make that? 9 Four. 10 MR. ADIN: I have actually kind of an 11 unusual potential issue in May. 12 MR. BROOKMAN: do you wish to reveal -- 13 tell the -- for the record. 14 MR. ADIN: So my wife is due to give 15 birth on May 20th, so -- 16 (Applause) 17 MR. ADIN: Thank you. Thank you. 18 MR. ROSENSTOCK: 28th or 27th? 19 MR. BROOKMAN: And this is your first 20 child. 21 MR. ADIN: I'm not going to suggest that 22 during this context. Yeah, but our first one, so

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 321 1

-- 2 MR. BROOKMAN: And so it'll probably be 3 a little bit late. Just kidding. 4 MR. ADIN: But I'll be out for a couple 5 of weeks. I just don't know when it will be. 6 MS. KOHL: (Inaudible) a week early. 7 MR. BROOKMAN: A week early. 8 (Off mic) 9 MR. BROOKMAN: Betsy -- you're so 10 precocious, Betsy. 11 What should we do about May? Should we 12 move to the first week in June, because we're 13 meeting April 29-30 which is really the first week 14 of May as well. 15 MR. ADIN: So since my issue is 16 variable, don't decide on that basis. If I can't 17 be here because of that, John will be most likely. 18 MR. BROOKMAN: I'm thinking we're going 19 to be down to the brass tacks. 20 MR. POWERS: What concerns me is if we 21 skip May and we go to June and we're supposed to 22 put this in in July, we're going to be down to the

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 322 1 wire and then we'll be -- 2 MR. BROOKMAN: Al, you can't be here 19 3 through 31 or something, right? 4 MR. HUBER: I won't be able to get on a 5 plane. I'll probably (inaudible). 6 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. What's better for 7 you collectively, the third week of May or the 8 fourth week of May, like the 20th through 23rd or 9 27th through 30? I'm going to start with the 10 third week first. How many is it better to do the 11 third week? Not. 12 MR. ROSENSTOCK: You talking May 3rd 13 versus fourth week? 14 MS. KOHL: May 19th week versus May 15 26th. 16 MR. ECKMAN: You talking just feasible 17 or preferred over the fourth week? 18 MR. BROOKMAN: Right exactly. That's 19 what I'm talking, third week preferred over the 20 fourth week. How many would prefer the third week 21 over the fourth week? Just two. So the rest of 22 you, show of hands, prefer the fourth week? By a

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 323 1 slim margin. No matter. Okay. We're going to the 2 fourth week, May 27-28. How many are going to 3 miss that? Two there. 4 How many are going to miss 28 and 29? 5 Just one. 6 How many are going to miss 29 and 30? 7 One. 8 So it seems like 28-29 is our best 9 candidate. I'm sorry, Robert. 10 MR. DOE: Okay. 11 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, 28-29 of May, those 12 are the new dates. 13 Now June -- this is going better than it 14 ever does, by the way. We're doing really, really 15 well here. 16 MR. HANDZEL: I've got another HI 17 meeting in June. 18 MR. BROOKMAN: When would that be? 19 MR. HANDZEL: (Inaudible) -- third week 20 of June. 21 MR. BROOKMAN: Does it benefit us -- 22 well, you're going to have plenty of product from

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 324 1 us for you to consider if that's necessary. Do 2 you want to try the last full week of June which 3 would be June 23 through 28? Try -- 4 MR. HANDZEL: The 28th, I have technical 5 meetings that week, starts on the 24th. 6 MR. BROOKMAN: The HI meeting? 7 MR. HANDZEL: The Hydraulic Institute's, 8 the 25th through the 27th. There's an ASRAC 9 meeting that morning. (Inaudible). 10 MR. BROOKMAN: I was wondering -- it 11 would blow an entire week for the industry 12 members, the HI members. Could we try on this one 13 occasion meeting on the Monday-Tuesday and then 14 you proceed to the HI meeting on Wednesday, 15 Thursday and Friday? 16 MR. POWERS: Where is it? 17 MR. CASE: The meeting starts on the 18 25th. I'll have meetings on the 24th -- 19 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So let's go then 20 to -- this is the reason I printed off this 21 supplemental page which begins July. 22 MR. DOE: What -- after the week of --

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 325 1 15th of June? 2 MR. BROOKMAN: The week of what? 3 MR. DOE: 16th (off mic) -- short 4 duration, attending two meetings but we did it 5 before, so -- 6 MR. BROOKMAN: You want to try June 16, 7 that week? I mean it would really -- let's try 8 that, shall we? How many are going to be 9 unavailable during that week of June 16 through 10 20? It's looking promising. Okay, so let's -- you 11 want to try -- let's try for the 17-18. How many 12 people can't make it June 17-18? Tom, you can't. 13 Okay. Anybody else? 14 MR. DOE: Steve, when did you say ASRAC 15 was? 16 MR. ROSENSTOCK: June 18-19 or -- 17 (Crosstalk/off mic) 18 MR. BROOKMAN: Tom, you've got ACEEE or 19 something? 20 MR. ECKMAN: No, I've got other 21 (inaudible) -- 22 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Does 18-29 work

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 326 1 better for you? 2 MR. ECKMAN: Yeah, 18-19 or 19-20. 3 MR. BROOKMAN: Shall we say 18-19, June 4 18-19? Okay. June 18-19. Well, that's pretty 5 impressive that we've been able to do that. Okay. 6 So, do you think we should schedule -- we should 7 probably schedule one date in July and hope we 8 don't need it, right? So this calendar, the 9 supplemental calendar, the one that's not pretty, 10 is laid out the same way. If we meet June 18-19 - 11

- 12 MR. ROSENSTOCK: July 15th? 13 MR. BROOKMAN: July 16-17? 14 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Our last day. 15 MR. BROOKMAN: July 16-17? 16 MR. ROSENSTOCK: 15th, that's our 17 deadline. 18 (Crosstalk/off mic) 19 MR. BROOKMAN: Can't be there? Well, 20 what are you saying, Betsy? 21 MS. KOHL: (Off mic) the 15th of (off 22 mic).

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 327 1 MR. BROOKMAN: It is. 2 MS. KOHL: So it would be the (off mic) 3

-- 4 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. So let's try for 5 the week prior. How does July 8 and 9 look? 6 (Crosstalk/off mic) 7 MR. BROOKMAN: Not good? 8 (Off mic) 9 MR. BROOKMAN: We could move the end 10 date and try and move -- you want to try July 22- 11 23 hoping that we don't need it or hoping that 12 ASRAC has looked at our work product and they say 13 this looks great, but what about this, what about 14 this, what about this? 15 MR. DOE: How about the 23rd-24th? 16 MR. BROOKMAN: 23rd-24th, yes? July 23- 17 24 as our final meeting, maybe not necessary and 18 also a celebration at that point? 19 MS. DOE: (Inaudible) -- 20 (Off record discussion) 21 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. I'm going to 22 restate what we've got. Please make sure you've

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 328 1 got these dates accordingly. January 30 and 31 2 here in the Forrestal Building; March 4th and 5th, 3 probably here and maybe with a site visit to 4 Taneytown in Maryland on the 6th; March 26, 27, 5 location to be determined, the default being the 6 Forrestal Building and it's probably where we're 7 going to be because all the capabilities are here; 8 April 29-30, here or wherever we determine. If we 9 decide it's possible to go to Chicago, take Mark 10 up on his offer or someone else, then we'll 11 entertain that beginning perhaps at the January 12 meeting. The other dates are May 28-29, June 18- 13 19, and finally, July 23-24. Okay? We did really 14 good with this. This is good. 15 So I guess that's all the business that 16 I thought we needed to conclude in this session. 17 I want to provide an opportunity for anybody that 18 wishes to to make brief concluding remarks, for 19 example, evaluating how we did, thoughts about 20 what you would think about looking ahead. 21 Charlie. 22 MR. CAPPELLINO: Charlie Cappellino,

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 329 1 ITT. I was just wondering if we could get an 2 example of what will end up being the deliverable, 3 which is the term sheet. I've never seen one, so 4 either a blank form or example from previous 5 rulemaking so we could see what our work product 6 would look like, help us understand where we need 7 to go. 8 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas. 9 MR. ADIN: Yes. I think the term sheet 10 from the transformers rule is in the public 11 docket, but we could direct the group to that. 12 I'm pretty sure it's in there. 13 MR. DOE: (off mic). 14 MR. ADIN: Oh, that's right. 15 MS. DOE: Off mic. 16 MR. ADIN: So no, not for that one. 17 MR. ECKMAN: There is one category. 18 Yeah, you could see that. 19 MR. ADIN: Okay. 20 MR. ECKMAN: (Off mic) 21 MR. ADIN: So enough that it would 22 provide an example of what it looks like, so,

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 330 1 right. 2 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. That's 3 a good idea. It's a very good idea. Other 4 closing remarks here. Mark. 5 MR. HANDZEL: So we have obviously 6 contact information from all the -- a lot of the 7 attendees. Doug, you're not on here. Lucas, 8 you're not on here. So if somehow we could get 9 your contact information just so we know where to 10 find you guys. 11 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. 12 MR. HANDZEL: I'd just like to comment 13 that I think, you know, whatever pre-work we can 14 do in advance of getting in this room -- you know, 15 obviously, we've requested a lot of data, but I 16 think, you know, we spent a lot of time fumbling 17 around scope these past two days, and we probably 18 could have done a little bit more preparation, had 19 some slides that we could throw up or we weren't 20 trying to pull through old meeting data -- so as 21 much as we could try to do that ahead of time, I 22 think it's going to help us be more productive the

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 331 1 next time. 2 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. that's 3 helpful and it's also been suggested to me that we 4 try to make these meetings definitely more 5 structured, so having those kind of visuals that 6 would guide the discussion I think will help with 7 that. Steve Rosenstock. 8 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI, 9 again. Thanks to DOE and Doug and Jeremiah for 10 all of the legwork that you've done. 11 During the transformers rulemaking, I 12 know that EEI hosted one of the meetings at our 13 facility to talk about -- and, you know, basically 14 we had the AV folks come in and basically checked 15 our system to make sure everything was compatible 16 with their system. Jeremiah, I think you were 17 involved with that one, weren't you? Yeah. So if 18 there's one of the members of the working group or 19 someone else in the audience who would like to 20 host it and, you know, in another city to make it 21 easier for other people to travel, I'm hoping that 22 Jeremiah or someone at DOE could at least email

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 332 1 and say here's what we need in terms of AV and 2 technical for webinar support, can you provide it. 3 And that way, we'd know that the facility would be 4 adaptable to DOE's needs. 5 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve, if we're in a 6 pinch, can you offer a host -- be a host for us? 7 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Well, it's still in DC. 8 It really doesn't help the people from out of town 9 but I'd have to -- 10 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah, but sometimes we 11 can't even get the meeting rooms here. 12 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Right. I'd have to 13 check. Our meeting rooms are very -- I have to 14 check the days. I would say maybe. I have to 15 check the dates with our meeting folks. 16 MR. ADIN: Let me offer -- we're going 17 to take that as an ask on our side to look at the 18 feasibility of doing one of these meetings outside 19 DOE and we'll get back to the group on what -- 20 MR. ROSENSTOCK: This is Steve 21 Rosenstock. You have done it but in the city, it's 22 just a matter of -- I'm hoping you might be able

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 333 1 to do it out of town. 2 MR. ADIN: Understood and we'll look at 3 the feasibility of doing that. 4 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Other -- yes, Meg. 5 MS. WALTNER: Just a quick add-on to 6 Mark's points. I very much agree in terms of 7 having as much as we can beforehand would be 8 useful and specifically, I think circulating some 9 sort of an agenda in advance of the next meeting 10 that folks could comment on and prepare based on 11 that agenda, and having a more structured agenda I 12 think would be helpful. 13 MR. BROOKMAN: I will take the 14 initiative to create an agenda for the next time. 15 I'll consult with Lucas and Betsy and we'll make 16 sure an agenda is sent in advance. 17 MS. WALTNER: And then secondly, I just 18 wanted to thank everyone for their time and effort 19 so far in this process. You know, I think we're 20 really excited about the potential here and 21 looking forward to the next 5, 6, 7 months of 22 working together. So I just wanted to thank

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 334 1 everyone. 2 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Yes, Mark, a 3 follow-on, then to Gary. 4 MR. HANDZEL: Sorry. Just a quick kind 5 of another question. So occasionally, like I 6 mentioned, there's an article that defines the 7 Lots and things like that, so if we run across 8 information that we might be helpful to the group, 9 can we feel free to share or do we need to send it 10 to Lucas for distribution? How do you want to 11 handle that kind of stuff? 12 MR. ADIN: That's a good question. I'm 13 glad you asked that because that's something we 14 discussed at lunch, and I meant to address and it 15 slipped my mind. But the general answer is yes. 16 To the extent that any member of the group has 17 something they believe will be useful to the group 18 as a whole, we want to be able to share that. I 19 will add that to my list of to dos coming out of 20 the meeting and let the entire group know the best 21 mechanism for doing that, how we're going to share 22 information. I think the SharePoint site is one

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 335 1 of them. Email could be another. We'll figure 2 out the best way to do that so that everyone gets 3 this information. 4 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary. 5 MR. FERNSTROM: So this is Gary. I'd 6 just like to say I think this has been, at least 7 from my perspective, a really tough negotiation. 8 I pushed hard for some things and I really 9 appreciate everybody's cooperative spirit and 10 effort to come to a common understanding of each 11 other's positions. Thank you, all. 12 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Other 13 comments here as we -- yes, Chuck. 14 MR. POWERS: I would recommend also, 15 Lucas, if possible, the schedule, right, instead 16 of just having rough dates and stuff if you could 17 -- I don't know if you guys are used to using 18 Microsoft Schedule or something a little more 19 detail where there's overlap, there's assignments, 20 there's things so that we have the end date and it 21 really lays it out and defines, because the 22 Microsoft Schedules say how long it's going to

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 336 1 take. Now we may not have that between now and 2 next meeting, but the next meeting we start 3 detailing it, what's involved in getting some of 4 these things done and the timeframe. It will help 5 us plot. If we add other products, if we do other 6 stuff, it'll lay that out for us and then it'll 7 say, Wow, we're going to have a problem meeting in 8 July because of this, so what do we have to 9 squeeze here and move here and -- just for what 10 it's worth. I don't know -- 11 MR. ADIN: Essentially, a project 12 management kind of -- 13 MR. POWERS: Right, a project management 14 tool of some sort. Now Microsoft Schedule is one 15 of the ones that I'm familiar with because we use 16 it a lot but there's other ones. 17 MR. ADIN: We can look at what tool we 18 could use. 19 MR. DOE: Microsoft Project? 20 MR. POWERS: Yeah, Microsoft Project. 21 The other thing is, as a group, that concerns me - 22 - I think it's great, but first of all, I was very

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 337 1 pleased. This is the first one I've officially 2 attended with the rest. I really do think it's 3 great, the different views and the different 4 perspectives that everybody's brought up. It is 5 very important. 6 Another thing we have to keep in 7 context, there are other manufacturers out there 8 that, you know, we have to be aware of that we 9 don't mess up. So decisions we may feel 10 comfortable with, I'd even have to be careful as a 11 manufacturer, and we're a big guy, too, that we 12 don't -- you know, it's our objective as an HI 13 member that we don't -- you know, we look at that. 14 So we get into these evaluations; what is it going 15 to do some of these other guys, the costs 16 involved, because we've got to be careful because, 17 you know, I'll have to go to sleep at night and 18 say, "Man, I just closed four plants down because 19 of this." And I think we all have the same kind 20 of concerns and we have to be careful. 21 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 22 MR. ADIN: So one point of information

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 338 1 that I don't think we really got into in detail at 2 all -- I'm not sure if we even mentioned it -- but 3 to the extent any of the regulations will affect 4 small businesses directly, there is a specialized 5 analysis that we have to do to evaluate the direct 6 impacts on those, and it's subject to review by 7 the Small Business Administration, and there's a 8 whole other set of things that we need to look at 9 purely on that basis. So I just wanted to make 10 sure it's understood that, in fact, by law and as 11 a matter of procedure, we will have to look at 12 those things in detail. 13 MR. POWERS: And as a second spin to 14 that, some of the bigger guys -- or we have to be 15 careful of some of the manufacturers offshore will 16 look at this opportunity, because they'll say, 17 Okay, now I can -- if I met their standard, where 18 are we going to go to get our costs down? We're 19 going to go offshore. They're already offshore. 20 They can easily jump their costs and come and we 21 have to be careful how does that blend with the 22 Buy American Act and how does that mess this up,

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 339 1 because if you put the confines in text, you may 2 have to get in point that the only guys that can 3 do this stuff might be offshore. I'm going 4 farfetched but there could be those impacts if 5 we're not careful. 6 MR. BROOKMAN: Al, do you wish to 7 comment? No? Okay. Final comments before I turn 8 it back -- so I'll turn it back to Lucas to make - 9 - our host and Betsy, concluding remarks. 10 MR. ADIN: I don't think I really have 11 anything specific to add, just to thank everyone 12 for their participation. I understand it took us 13 a while to get to this ultimate product and 14 understanding that these are extremely complex 15 issues, and it was a little messy coming into it 16 yesterday. I accept some amount of responsibility 17 for that. I don't think we were completely 18 prepared to dive in quite so early, but I think we 19 righted the ship a little bit by the end of the 20 day today and that's a good thing, and it's 21 instructive for our future meetings. It occurred 22 to me that an agenda will be useful, all those

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 340 1 things are things that we intend to do in advance 2 of the next meeting, so your concerns are well 3 taken. I think that's all I have. 4 MR. BROOKMAN: So safe travels to 5 everyone. I look forward to seeing you on January 6 30-31 here and thanks to everyone that joined us 7 via the web. Safe travels. 8 (Whereupon, the meeting was adjourned 9 at approximately 3:02 p.m.) 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22

### Capital Reporting Company DOE- Commercial-Industrial Pumps Working Group 12-19-2013

1 CERTIFICATE OF TRANSCRIBER 2 I, LUCY TURNBULL, do hereby certify that 3 this transcript was prepared from audio to the 4 best of my ability. 5 I am neither counsel for, nor party to this 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 action nor action. am I interested in the outcome of this



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### 2014 341

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 342 1 CERTIFICATE OF TRANSCRIBER 2 I, DEBORAH ARBOGAST, do hereby certify that 3 this transcript was prepared from audio to the 4 best of my ability. 5 I am neither counsel for, nor party to this 6 action nor am I interested in the outcome of this 7 action. 8 9 10 11 12 __________________________ DEBORAH ARBOGAST 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 343 1 CCERTIFICATE OF COURT REPORTER 2 I, NATALIA THOMAS, the Court Reporter before 3 whom the foregoing proceeding was taken, do hereby 4 certify that the proceeding was recorded by me; 5 that the proceeding was thereafter reduced to 6 typewriting under my direction; that said 7 transcript is a true and accurate record of the 8 proceeding; that I am neither related to nor 9 employed by any of the parties to this proceeding; 10 and, further, that I have no financial interest in 11 this proceeding. 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 ___________________________ NATALIA THOMAS 19 Digital Court Reporter 20 21 22

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 $ $107 310:21 0 014 63:6 1 1 36:13 140:1 149:10 151:11 160:12,13,15 176:14 193:14 194:2 200:15 235:18 236:2,9,18,22 252:17 254:5 258:8 261:3,6 281:16 299:3 316:5 318:19 1.0 259:12,19 1.2 218:11 1.7 62:18 63:12 73:9 1.8 63:12 1/12 194:7 1/2 193:21 1/25 158:17 193:20 1/25-horsepower 156:5 176:13 177:5 193:12 194:5 1/25th 62:5 1/2-horse 156:6 1/4 152:13 1/4-horsepower 152:4 1:15 239:21 10 114:5 211:6 252:20 253:2 254:5 261:4 281:18

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11,000 39:16 11.33 296:7 11.66 296:6 12 295:19 296:7 12:15 239:15 120 253:1,2 254:6 261:4 281:19 311:1 1-2-3s 193:20 125 108:11,16 258:6 15 178:14 194:22 211:6 298:5 299:2 150 157:10 254:18 255:19 256:1,5 261:15 262:7,9 15-horsepower 171:16 15-minute133:21 15th 221:12 224:10 302:10 325:1 326:12,16,21 16 325:6,9 16-17 326:13,15 16-bar261:10 16th 325:3 17 295:5,19 17-18 325:11,12 17th 224:22 239:9,12 305:21 18 328:12 18-19 325:16 326:2,3,4,10 18-29 325:22

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### Capital Reporting Company

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 336:3 Gettysburg313:9 given 3:20 23:22 30:21 35:7 69:13,16 131:15 163:9 164:16 167:1 183:18 197:7 210:4 294:6 gives 52:1 256:13 318:14 giving 278:11 glad 14:14 213:15 242:13 334:13 glancing 4:13 global70:5 globalization 58:16 globally 292:4 goal4:3 6:6 209:11 goals 3:18 4:2 5:12,14 127:22 gone 93:19 124:18 142:18 154:4 162:12 240:14 gotcha97:11 259:22 gotten 39:9 283:16 GPM254:2 281:14 Grab 252:21 grades 211:13 Grainger99:8 107:19 108:6 111:17 112:6,8 granted 77:20 151:1 granularity 140:13 grasp 49:11 gray152:22 281:14 great56:15 65:10 75:5 98:4 124:6 135:22 182:8 200:7 269:15 314:12,15 327:13 336:22 337:3 greater36:6 254:2 259:3 281:15 Greg2:6,17 12:11,14 58:13,14 59:16 62:14,16 63:7 64:8,21 65:5 74:10 77:3,4 89:9,15,16 91:9 92:19 95:7 97:13 104:19 105:10 109:3,7,12 116:9 197:17 205:12,21 225:12 228:15 257:15 Greg's 60:4 103:11 105:16 ground 3:8,10,11 4:3 14:21 133:11,18 134:12 180:9 196:12 205:3 212:19 218:16,20 219:7 233:16 240:11 262:18 279:8 293:5,13,14 300:15,17 301:5 group 1:7 10:3 16:15 24:13,16 34:20 88:11 89:20 91:5 94:20 95:3,6,7 122:7 124:11 143:11 157:8 179:2 198:18 199:5,6 210:18 232:14,19 237:14 238:5 239:5,6 241:12 256:7 262:16 265:15 266:18 276:3 284:10 288:19 293:15,22 294:5,6,10,12,17 ,19 296:2 297:1 298:6,10,13,15 299:3 300:19 301:5 319:7 329:11 331:18 332:19 334:8,16,17,20 336:21 grouping 25:20 26:3,16 290:16 Grundfos 2:17 12:11 58:14 132:8,12 153:15 154:1 guess 34:19 38:5 40:5 45:6 52:8 59:1 68:15 77:11 101:11 120:3 126:12 138:17 165:7 202:6 205:11 213:18 220:18,21 227:15 234:4 235:11 241:2 259:10 260:6 308:13 328:15 guessing 250:20

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 84:1,3,8,11 104:18 105:2,9,16,21 106:1,14,21 108:2 127:12 128:7,11,16 145:12,15,19 152:21 153:6,17 155:8,11 157:1 169:2,7,11 171:21 173:8 177:11,22 178:4 192:1,6 193:10,16,21 227:20 228:7 230:7 238:9 257:21 258:2,18 260:1 262:10,13 281:22 298:1,3 308:5 309:1,4,13 313:19,22 314:3,6,13,17,20 315:7 323:16,19 324:4,7 330:5,12 334:4 happen 76:6 120:1 198:4,13,15,16 209:19 260:16 274:12 happened 181:2 318:6 happens 22:2 204:7 214:1 happy 125:16 185:18 264:6 273:5 315:10 hard 77:10 99:9 191:14 192:18 212:5 239:14 305:11 335:8 harmonization 58:17 hash 53:22

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 ignore 26:7 I'll18:5 22:14 25:2,17 32:11 33:8 50:14 52:14 55:19 59:13 71:6 80:10 89:3 102:21 132:21 135:13 143:1,9 146:20 153:22 160:6 162:16 166:3 170:20 171:9 174:10 196:6 206:11 238:7 253:22 259:13 263:1 275:22 292:18 321:4 322:5 324:18 333:15 337:17 339:8 illustrative 52:9 I'm5:12,14 7:11 9:16 10:1 11:11,13 14:2,14 17:4 18:6 20:16 21:7 22:22 32:5,10,21 34:10 35:12 38:6 39:20 42:1 43:16 44:10,19 46:6 48:13 54:7 55:16 58:4,5 59:15 63:8,10,21 67:4 70:21 71:7 72:12 73:1 74:1 80:1 83:12 90:7 93:8 96:5 98:16,18 99:3,11,14 102:7 103:4,15 104:4,14 111:11 112:5 115:2,5,10 117:2 121:13 122:1 123:9 125:21 127:10 130:13 132:20 133:5,13 134:10 135:14 136:2,18 144:22 145:16 152:11 156:4,6 157:9 158:1,17 166:1 171:16 174:14 182:10 185:12,18 195:15 197:13 200:22 202:6 203:11 204:18 205:1,17 206:6 210:12 213:15 216:6,8,13,16,17 218:1 223:8,22 224:3,4 226:4,19 227:7,15 228:9,21 231:9,21 233:21 234:4,5,21 235:17 237:15,18 238:4 239:15 240:21 241:7 242:10,12,14 243:19 249:1 251:10,12 252:16 254:11,19 256:4,6 257:5,7 258:21 259:2,18 260:11 262:1,14,17 264:2,5 265:3 270:5 273:5,6,8 274:16,19 275:13 276:5,16 280:4,10,13,16 281:8 282:3 283:5,14,19,20 286:12 288:13 290:6,12 291:3,6,11 292:8 300:15,21 301:8,9 302:10,12,16,17 303:8 306:6 307:8 310:1,11,13 311:4 312:10,11,17,20 313:22 314:20 315:10 317:17,19 318:12 319:11 320:1,4,21 321:18 322:9,19 323:9 327:21 329:12 331:21 332:22 334:12 336:15 338:2 339:3 images 238:12 imagine94:9 274:8 immediately43:17 317:3 immense 73:6 impact119:6 156:8 169:17 180:8 213:15,16 214:8,14 219:4 259:19 276:22 277:1,13,14 290:19 impacts 182:7 210:5 276:18,19 277:16 278:2 338:6 339:4 impediments 124:16 impeller107:12 168:9,13,21 169:5 171:20 249:9 impellers 107:3,11 167:13

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### Capital Reporting Company

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### Capital Reporting Company

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### Capital Reporting Company

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 paragraph 261:7 parallel198:16 parameter

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positions 300:6 335:11 possibility142:22 259:15 277:15 280:9 possible3:20 4:20 16:21 73:6 100:16 126:8 136:17 147:3,7 204:10 205:18 207:5 233:15 243:4 260:13,14 267:21 277:15,19 291:17 310:3,5 319:20 328:9 335:15 possibly80:5 141:18 142:21 potential34:12 42:10 90:22 112:14,22 113:3,15 155:3 175:20 182:6 183:18 216:8,14 219:4 276:13 289:19 290:2 291:22 309:11 320:11 333:20 potentially 16:12 113:9 Potts2:14 11:11,12 27:13,17 28:3 214:17 235:2 269:9 270:12 295:2 318:5 power 2:8 12:6 28:1 55:6,10,14,20 79:21 80:13

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 83:13 92:17 93:5,6,12,13 94:22 97:16,22 99:9,10,20 106:5,18 108:15 118:11 148:10 236:13,14 powered 148:14,15 Powers 2:15 11:17 17:1,11,17 18:10,13 25:13 38:19 39:5 44:10 46:12,16 75:18 76:17 102:18 104:11 109:15,16,20 110:4,9 111:21,22 112:4,8 150:1,6 168:3 169:13 170:3,22 171:4,10 173:14 174:1,8 180:3 212:17 214:1,12 223:21 224:2,12,17 226:20 227:10 228:4,8 231:3,6 233:6,10 239:8,11 241:8 242:5 243:11 244:3,7 248:5 250:7 251:3,7,19 252:8 255:18 260:20 261:13 274:13,18 276:11 290:15,22 305:6,15 308:15 309:7,16 310:4,20 311:5,18 312:7 313:4,14,16 315:10 321:20 324:16 335:14 336:13,20 338:13 practical215:1 298:21 practice30:18 300:11,12 precedent203:12 preceding 311:16 preclude 30:3 285:6 precocious 321:10 predictor179:8 preempted184:19 185:2 187:14 200:19 201:14 preemption 184:7,10 185:5,15 186:3,6 187:18,20 188:1 189:16,18 190:4 200:10 204:16 prefer322:20,22 preferably264:15 preference 319:18 preferred 316:6 322:17,19 preliminary 4:16,21 7:2,8 8:9 9:8 15:16,21 50:14,16 53:10 77:16 78:10 142:14,20 144:5 195:12 209:2,4 226:17 233:13 240:6,18 241:3 245:14 263:7,15,21 264:1,9,13 265:8 274:3 278:10 279:1,13,16 280:11,12,17 282:5 293:10 premium59:21 preparation 104:21 330:18 prepare 77:10 333:10 prepared 15:13 63:21 77:9 118:22 339:18 341:3 342:3 prescribed 215:7 prescription 184:14 present62:1 117:9 297:5 301:1 presentation 239:10,11 presented 44:2 222:20 233:1 238:4 press 278:6 291:6 pressure 48:13,17 261:11 presumably124:7 264:15 279:14 305:1 presume36:5 91:13 215:17 234:7 263:8 presumed175:21 219:20 presumption 206:13 219:18 223:13 234:2 247:3 268:18 288:22 pretty11:7 19:1

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 90:13 116:21 132:13 144:15 151:9 156:2 165:14 168:14 171:22 174:21 178:14,22 179:15 194:8,10 197:22 200:2 207:21 209:20 221:15 239:1 240:19 241:3 249:22 250:8 260:20 269:11 283:17 289:13 303:6,18,19 304:17 309:17 321:2 322:5 326:7 328:3,6 330:17 problem 36:17 41:8 42:20 105:6 236:17 260:2 285:14 291:2 295:3 308:6 310:15 336:7 problematic210:3 problems 182:19 240:12 procedural10:1 90:18 procedure 4:22 5:4 8:20 9:4 87:7 88:1,10,19 92:10 101:2 106:4 119:12 120:5,8,13,15 126:10 130:6 147:13 163:10 178:18 179:5 195:17 197:16 198:5,6,21 199:1 200:5 201:9 205:12,19 206:14 209:2 215:19 223:11 233:19,20 234:8 236:11 246:20 263:9 278:3 338:11 procedures 9:16 195:13 199:20,21,22 205:16 procedure's 277:2 proceed5:9 9:2 87:11 88:3 95:4 128:1 324:14 proceeding 10:21 64:2 157:16 297:4 343:3,4,5,8,9,11 proceedings 134:3 proceeds 77:2 process 9:12 12:13 32:12 35:22 68:12,19 77:8 136:13 189:3 193:22 194:1 198:20 204:20 206:15 211:2 284:20 290:7 333:19 processes 9:17 process-related 48:12 produce 57:15 66:14,19 196:19 289:3 produced 157:4 producing52:22 product27:3 30:7,22 31:1 33:21 36:13 37:12 38:9 39:4,13 40:7 42:6 43:1,11 44:3 47:5 48:1 51:20 63:9 64:5,6,12,14,15 67:9 69:12 70:11 71:4 74:15,16 76:8,13 80:2 81:17,22 82:6,13,18 90:2 93:20 98:17 100:15,17 106:16 107:7 108:10,19 110:1 118:12 119:5 122:10 125:4 137:5,8 150:20 151:11,12 161:13 163:17 177:9 179:5,6 183:16 184:9,13 185:4 186:1,6,11,13 187:1,2,5,11 191:15 200:21 201:19,21,22 202:2,9,11 203:5,7,18,20 208:16 212:10 230:3 257:17 263:12 267:18 275:4,16 289:2 323:22 327:12 329:5 339:13 productive 3:9 6:2 134:7 330:22 products 9:7 20:9 21:13 25:15 26:16 31:18 33:20 34:3 42:11,16,22 43:2,5 46:10 62:7 69:17 71:18 73:9 78:12 80:15 81:14,15,16,18 82:21 86:21 88:17 91:22 92:3 99:6 102:14 107:7 109:13 111:12 114:20 142:2 147:9 149:10 153:19 156:21 161:11 172:20,21 177:5 179:11 181:15 185:21 186:22 188:19,22 190:16 191:8 203:12 217:2 235:16,18 236:10 253:5 275:9,20 281:11 284:19 286:1,4,10,14,15 292:20,21 310:9 336:5 product's 33:20 profess 185:13 profile 72:16,22 84:1,4,7,19,21 85:11 87:9 122:8 129:9 141:8 158:5,21 profiles 86:4 87:21 165:19 166:12 175:9 181:20 progress 47:10 134:8,14 239:18 290:1 progression 6:19 246:19 project2:13 12:9 166:6 336:11,13,19,20 projected141:7

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 292:13,16 pump-in-a 107:1 pumping 28:19 43:13 45:22 46:5 265:15 pumps 7:17 8:12 18:7,8 19:10 21:14,15 22:13,18 23:11 25:10,20 26:2 27:1,2,19,21 28:5,16 30:2 33:3,4,14 35:1,4 36:16 37:17 38:16 40:2 41:1,14 42:22 46:4 54:18,19 56:18 57:3,8 62:3 63:15,16,17 64:4,17 67:20 68:17 70:6 77:9 91:5 94:14 101:14 104:22 106:6 114:7,12,13 118:4,5 120:20 137:3,7,17 140:13 141:13,15 145:2 146:5 149:9 156:6 162:18,21 163:21 166:9,15 167:2 168:12 172:16 178:14 179:14 187:2,5 188:5 190:20 191:12,20 192:3 200:14 202:4,14 203:4 204:7 214:22 217:12 221:22 222:4,20,21 233:2 234:17 235:4,7,9,16 236:22 238:12 242:17 243:1 244:17 245:18 253:16 254:10 255:2 256:21 257:2 258:6,12 259:21 264:14,17 266:2 267:11,22 270:22 271:7,14 272:1,3 274:1 275:13,14 277:11 278:15 281:12,17 288:19 289:19 292:6,18,19 pump's 111:2 Pumps 1:6 185:4 186:12 purchased 104:9 purchasing 101:14,15 176:9 178:13 purely168:3,4 196:16 338:9 purpose 49:19 50:1 57:19 58:1 96:15 251:21 312:12 purposes 15:13 16:15 19:10 27:22 30:2 78:8 84:15 88:16 116:8 177:21 178:8 204:17 229:21 230:1 234:6 247:11 297:2 pursue 158:11 196:21 pursuing266:19 push 68:15 199:17 252:16 pushed 87:19 308:6 335:8 pushing307:10 puts 192:20,22 284:1 putting 99:16,19 106:10 129:5 145:18 219:9 258:3 Pythagoris 296:18 Q qualms 271:6 quantity 17:5,8,14,19 18:11,12 23:1 25:1,8 46:17 question 10:19 16:22 17:1 19:14 20:22 21:1,2,17 30:14 34:19 36:15,22 37:4,11 41:13 42:15 43:10,16 56:20 64:2 68:5 80:9,16,22 81:5 87:7,20 88:11 91:9 93:14 101:12 113:5 114:14 116:7,13 123:3,10,20 125:3,10 134:21 144:4 145:6 163:11 165:18 168:9 171:15 173:9 175:20 176:12 178:17 184:18 187:9 188:12 189:20 190:12 191:11 193:8 198:19

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 quorum 294:16,18 297:4 R R20 203:14,17 radically206:5 raise 10:8 102:11 155:1 237:5 282:13 300:19 304:14 raised 3:14 155:16 190:13 272:1 278:7 raising 75:16 183:3 268:2 280:4 282:6 ran 85:4 ranch 174:16 Randy2:9 13:11 244:13 range 41:18 114:5 144:11 149:11 167:4 176:13 194:2 211:10 218:7 236:2 250:1,2 252:18,19 253:6 254:5 256:13,14,16,18 257:17 258:8,14,15,16 259:16 262:11 281:16,17 ranges 42:7 211:6 rapidly 130:22 273:8 rare27:6 rate34:4 251:16 rated43:11 81:16 167:8,14 259:9 rather128:6 136:5 158:12 204:12 227:6 233:13 286:15 290:9 rating43:14 54:11 64:18 87:1,3 101:13 163:14 261:11 267:16 ratio 86:16 rationale 19:20 20:1,5,19 raw164:2 reach 66:21 279:22 readily153:11 157:3 reading 21:9 182:16 184:1,12 297:18 ready72:3 75:2 143:13,18 194:17 263:14 real75:14 158:17 159:7 167:13 280:14 realistic 213:5 realistically95:15 realities 291:5 reality30:13 43:17 realized 200:18 really8:20 14:10,13 16:14 20:2 25:4 29:10 32:6 34:22 35:6 39:9,10 50:1 51:8,11 59:16 64:13 70:11,17,22 72:21 74:19 82:19 84:15,20 87:22 97:2 100:20 101:4 116:17,19 117:20 123:1 129:11 133:17,18,19 142:18 149:2 156:5 158:16,18 162:7 172:4,21 173:1,4 176:1 180:21 193:19 196:7 199:15 205:10 207:13 211:12 212:13,15 215:3 219:3,6,8 222:13 230:20 240:2 245:1 246:11 257:5 259:7 268:1,2 277:1 288:8,12 289:9 301:9 304:14 309:2 319:13 321:13 323:14 325:7 328:13 332:8 333:20 335:7,8,21 337:2 338:1 339:10 reason 20:8,12,13,14 24:12 56:1 119:20 129:10 130:14 206:12 232:7 243:5 288:9 324:20 reasonable 4:9 31:15 50:2 159:15 209:13 288:8 reasoning 31:15 reasons 188:4 280:1 301:10

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 112:3 115:16,18 122:14 127:8 128:13 129:1 131:3 132:18 133:4,15 251:11 272:12,22 273:12 288:16 290:4 320:13 327:20 343:7 recorded272:19 343:4 red300:8 redesign 75:11 212:3 277:4 redline 293:8,16 redlined 293:19 red-lined 205:7 reduced 343:5 reestablished 24:4 refer118:16 161:8 216:22 228:13 231:11,13 235:16 248:12,16 257:10 reference199:22 201:7 229:12 referenced 229:6 232:9 referred248:7 referring161:7 216:21 234:12 243:19 251:17,20 256:21 257:14 264:2 refers 187:22 refine 209:3 reflect84:5 100:21 reflector203:16 204:3 refocus 6:9 reframe218:13 refrigeration 189:11 refrigerator 111:13,14 Regal-Beloit2:11 13:17 regard177:4 186:10 269:10 regarding 116:13 130:5 217:1 regardless 41:22 55:19 65:9,15 95:3 101:18,19 102:2 118:2 148:17 187:6 232:1 286:8 regards 229:5 Register69:19 regret 306:19 regular185:20 regulate 56:19 58:10,19 59:8 188:5 regulated 41:14,21 47:21 59:1 60:2 62:4,9,12 67:14 119:21 179:16 181:5,13 regulates 56:10 regulating 47:19 58:9 59:5 70:10 regulation 57:9 120:1 131:4 179:14,22 181:12 185:1,8 187:13 201:3,16

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statement

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### Capital Reporting Company

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### Capital Reporting Company

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