BEFORE THE UNITED STATES 

U.S. DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION 

OFFICE OF HEARINGS 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 

263 

In the Matter of: 

M&R HELICOPTERS, LLC , 

FAA Docket No. CPlOSOOOll 

(Civil Penalty Action) 

FDMS NO. FAA-2010-1211 

X 

CO 

i-O 

X 

'G 

en 

' 

CO 

Friday, January 27th, 2012 

BEFORE: 

RICHARD C. GOODWIN 

U.S. Administrative Law Judge 

The above-entitled matter came on for 

Hearing at 9:00 a.m., pursuant to Notice, in 

the Fourth Floor Courtroom of the Holmes 

Building, 101 Larry Holmes Drive, Easton, 

Pennsylvania, when were present, on behalf of 

the parties: 

FEB 212012 

HEARIWG DOCKE 

(202) 234-4433 

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APPEARANCES: 

On Behalf of the Respondent: 

MICHAEL SELIG, MD, FACC, CFl-H 

Respondent's Representative 

2816 Orefield Road 

Allentown, PA 18104 

(610) 360-3953 

On Behalf of the Complainant: 

CHARLES RALLY, ESQ. 

Attorney, Enforcement Division 

AGC-3 00 

Office of the Chief Counsel 

Federal Aviation Administration 

800 Independence Ave., S.W. 

Washington, D.C. 20 5 91 

(202) 267-3357 

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I-N-D-E-X 

WITNESSES DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS 

AMY FRANKEL 267 315 322 

KIM BARNETTE 326 3 35 

Exhibit No 

R-9 

A-15 

A-16 

R-1 

R-2 

R'3 

R-5 

R-6 

R-7 

R-8 

Id'd 

267 

330 

333 

Re' d 

332 

335 

347 

347 

347 

348 

349 

350 

351 

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P-R-0-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 

9:03 a.m. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Any preliminary 

matters? 

MR. RALEY: No, Your Honor. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Ms. Frankel, do 

you want to return to the stand? 

Whereupon, 

AMY FRANKEL 

10 was recalled as a witness by Counsel for the 

11 Complainant and, having been previously duly 

12 sworn, assumed the witness stand, was examined 

13 and testified as follows: 

14 JUDGE GOODWIN: Dr. Selig? 

15 DR. SELIG: Am I on exhibit 8? 

16 JUDGE GOODWIN: Dr. Selig, what I 

17 have is Exhibit 8 is the CFR Section 135, so 

18 if this is a new exhibit, it would be exhibit 

19 9 . 

20 DR. SELIG: Did I already give you 

21 251 and -- that is a different one, I'm sorry, 

22 it is not . 

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1 {Whereupon, the above-referenced 

2 to document was marked as 

3 Respondent Exhibit No. R-9 for 

4 identification.) 

CROSS-EXAMINATION 

BY DR. SELIG: 

Q What I'm showing you --

JUDGE GOODWIN: Don'C forget, if 

9 you walk away from the microphone, she can't 

10 hear you. 

11 DR. SELIG: Does this mic work? 

12 JUDGE GOODWIN: No, I don't think 

13 so. 

14 BY DR. SELIG: 

15 Q What I'm showing you -- well, 

16 first of all, what does that look like, how 

17 would you identify that document? 

18 A I have no idea what this document 

19 is. 

2 0 Q Those are my operational 

21 specifications, which were developed in, 

22 basically, the year 2002. 

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And these were signed off, 

2 compliance statements. So what I would like, 

3 I would like you to state, on that document, 

4 where does it inform me what that, number one 

5 I'm to look at a certain website, to check out 

6 the rest of that document, present questions. 

7 I'd like you to tell me, like you 

8 to tell me if there was anything about 

9 moonlighting on that document, if there was 

10 anything about, that Mr. Baker needed to be on 

11 my specific drug test --

12 MR. RALEY: Objection, Your Honor. 

13 JUDGE GOODWIN: Let him finish the 

14 question. Go ahead, doctor. 

15 BY DR. SELIG: 

16 Q So that is a compliance statement 

17 that I was told to produce, and it was 

18 approved by the FAA. I'd like to know how am 

19 I supposed to know, if there is absolutely n o 

20 reference, to any other external document, how 

21 to be compliant in any matter? Can you see it 

22 there? 

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1 MR. RALEY: Objection, Your Honor, 

2 it is a compound question that he is 

3 developing. 

4 JUDGE GOODWIN: I understand. 

5 Overruled. If you can answer the question, do 

6 so. If you can't, state you can't answer the 

7 question. 

8 THE WITNESS: The document that 

9 I'm reading says that M£cR Helicopters will 

10 provide with the provisions of FAR Part 

11 135.253 in regard to employees who perform a 

12 function listed in appendix J to part 121 of 

13 this chapter, and set forth. 

14 So you asked me quite a few 

15 questions. But it states that you will comply 

16 with the drug and alcohol regulations. 

17 0 All right, and so when you read 

18 this document, it states that, basically, I 

19 will ensure that any contractor who performs 

20 maintenance on this aircraft is covered by an 

21 FAA approved drug testing program. 

22 So Mr. Baker was on a drug testing 

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9 

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program. So if you weren't an FAA supervisor, 

and understood these regulations very well, 

and you were just a lay person, like myself, 

and you were reading this, wouldn't it appear 

that M&R was in compliance with this 

statement, knowing that Mr. Baker was on Air 

Methods? 

MR. RALEY: Objection, Your Honor, 

calls for speculation, asking what a lay 

person would know with regard to --

JUDGE GOODWIN: To that extent I 

will sustain it . Rephrase your question, 

doctor. 

BY DR. SELIG: 

Q Does it, would it appear, from 

this statement, the fact that Mr. Baker was on 

a drug and alcohol program, would it be 

consistent with this part of 251? 

A At the time this document was 

drafted, yes. 

Q Okay, all right. Now, without 

knowing that there was ~- there is a second 

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1 part to this, I'm sorry. It is all basically 

2 the same issue, the same exact phrasing on 

3 255, so I just want to make that for the 

4 record, so these two are basically the same. 

5 JUDGE GOODWIN: Just ask a 

question, doctor. 

BY DR. SELIG: 

Q Okay, now, so from this document I 

would never know where to look for material 

10 changes in the drug and alcohol abatement 

11 program? 

12 Based on this document, there is 

13 no references to anywhere to look, to try to 

14 see if you can find, or any instruction that 

15 is, at all, how to look, find, any type of 

16 drug and alcohol amendments? 

17 A If the --

JUDGE GOODWIN: Is that a 

19 question, doctor? 

20 DR. SELIG: Yes. 

21 BY DR. SELIG: 

22 Q I'msaying, does this tell me 

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where to look for drug and alcohol amendments, 

yes or no? 

A Yes, in appendix J, part 121, it 

says Part J, appendix, part 121. 

0 Am I looking in a medical 

textbook, you know, I don't know where -- it 

doesn' t tell you where to look, it doesn' t 

tell you a website, does it? 

MR. RALEY: Objection, asked and 

answered. She has told him that the 

regulation is cited in the document that he 

has provided. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Sustained. 

BY DR. SELIG: 

Q Is there any, does it give me d.x\Y 

methods of compliance? Do you know what 

methods of compliance are, do you know what 

that term means? 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Dr. Sel ig, you 

asked her two questions. 

0 

BY DR. SELIG : 

Can you define methods of 

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1 compliance? 

2 A No. 

Q Define those? 

A No. 

5 Q Okay. Methods of compliance are, 

6 basically, a procedure in which an operator 

7 would have to follow, in order to follow, in 

order to be in accordance with the 

requlations. 

10 MR. RALEY: Objection, Your Honor, 

11 he is testifying. 

12 JUDGE GOODWIN: Could you --

13 BY DR. SELIG: 

14 Q Okay, so therefore, when we look 

15 at these other OpSpecs, this A449, do you know 

16 how those OpSpecs work, or who writes those? 

17 Are you aware of what goes into those 

18 particular OpSpecs? 

19 A I'm not an expert on OpSpecs. 

20 Q Well, I'm only looking at the 

2 1 A449 . 

22 A Isthata n exhibi t tha t would be 

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here? 

Q Yes, it is already - - it was Mr. 

Raley's exhibit, which I can show you, but it 

should be up there. 

But, I mean, basically this is a 

referral to, it is exactly the same 

information. For instance this is --

JUDGE GOODWIN: Doctor, remember, 

you have to be near a microphone, or she can't 

pick you up. 

DR. SELIG: Well, I can't --

JUDGE GOODWIN: So show her the 

exhibit. 

DR. SELIG: Okay. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: And then go back 

to your chair. 

BY DR. SELIG: 

Q So in case you didn't know, which 

I'm a little shocked that you don't know, but 

there were basically two documents that we 

carried. One is the compliance statement, and 

the other one are the OpSpecs, right? 

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A Uh hum. 

Q Now - -

JUDGE GOODWIN: The witness has to 

4 answer yes or no. When you -- in normal 

5 conversation all of us, typically, the problem 

6 is that when she transcribes she doesn't know 

7 what the sound means. 

8 THE WITNESS: I wasn't sure if 

9 that was, actually, a question. I apologize. 

10 Yes, I understand. 

11 BY DR. SELIG: 

12 Q I have to give background, because 

13 you don't seem to know --

14 JUDGE GOODWIN: Doctor, if you are 

15 trying to ask a hypothetical, then set up a 

16 hypothetical. 

17 BY DR. SELIG: 

18 Q Okay, Ms. Frankel, who is 

19 responsible for these OpSpecs, who writes 

20 these OpSpecs? 

21 A Flight standards. 

22 0 Okay, good, flight standards. 

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Now, if flight standards didn't fail to update 

these OpSpecs; which are kept in the aircraft, 

how am I to know of regulation change? 

A T don't understand the question. 

I'm sorry. 

Q Okay. An operator, basically this 

is our bible. So we have to follow these 

OpSpecs. So the question is, who updates 

these OpSpecs? 

A Flight standards. 

Q Okay, we are there. 

Q Now, if flight standards does not 

update these regulations, how is -- being that 

this is the only reference that the operators 

have, on a routine basis, reviewed on a 

routine basis, how is the operator to know a 

regulation change? 

A Dr. Selig, as a certificated 

operator, the operator is responsible to know 

and keep up to date with the regulation. 

Q All right, okay, we will go there. 

All right, now, all right. So you are saying 

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that the operator has to update themselves, 

right? 

A Wo. They have to educate 

4 themselves, and stay with the regulations. 

5 They have to update and stay with the 

6 regulation. The aviation industry is a highly 

7 regulated industry. 

And it is up to the operator to 

remain aware of the regulations. 

10 0 Okay. So you are saying that 

11 there is no instruction given, whatsoever? 

12 Surely the responsible, the operator, despite 

13 OpSpecs that say something different than what 

14 the regulations say? 

15 Is that what you are saying? It 

16 is completely the operator'S - -

17 A I did not say --

18 JUDGE GOODWIN: Doctor, Doctor, 

19 don't argue with her about what her -- you are 

2 0 arguing with the witness, you are not 

21 enquiring of the witness. 

2 2 Her statement is in the record. 

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and that is what the Court will consider. 

BY DR. SELIG: 

3 Q All right, now, in 2004 you stated 

4 that the regulation changed which, basically, 

5 put me in violation, correct? 

6 A The regulation changed in 2004. 

7 Q Okay. What is the grace period 

8 for becoming compliant with that regulation? 

9 A There are different grace periods 

10 for different regulation changes. 

11 Q Okay. Well, let's talk about this 

12 2004 one. Do you know what it was for that, 

13 was it five years? 

14 A One moment. 

15 (Witness reviews document.) 

16 THE WITNESS: The regulation 

17 change, that we are discussing, that happened 

18 in 2004, the Notice of Proposed Rulemaking was 

19 in 2002 . 

2 0 It was announced, in the Federal 

21 Register, on January 12th, 2004, and the 

22 amendments within this regulation became 

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effective on February 11th, 2004. 

BY DR. SELIG: 

Q Okay. So after February 11th what 

grace period did I have to become compliant 

with this regulation? How long did I have to 

become compliant with it? 

It doesn't say that, does it? 

A Not that I'm aware of. I haven't 

read this document. 

Q I understand, I understand. All 

right, now, so we don't know what the grace 

period is. Unless we have this pop up on our 

desktop, on a daily basis, we will never 

really know this has changed, if you are not 

looking for it, you are not going to find it, 

type of thing, right? 

That is a correct statement, if 

you are not looking for it, you are not going 

to find it? Yes or no. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: If you can answer 

it, answer it. If you can't, answer it and 

just say you can't answer it. 

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question. 

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IS 

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THE WITNESS: I can't answer that 

BY DR. SELIG 

Q So you are saying that you gave 

mail notification to me? 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Doctor, --

MR. RALEY: Objection. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: 

with the witness. 

you are arguing 

DR. SELIG: I'm asking a question. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: You asked a 

question, you got an answer. You are arguing 

with the witness about what she said. 

DR. SELIG: Okay. 

JUDGE GOODVilN: That is not 

helpful to the Court. 

DR. SELIG: Okay, Your Honor. 

BY DR. SELIG: 

Q All right, so you already stated 

that there was no notification process? 

MR. RALEY: Objection. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Sustained. 

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DR. SELIG: I'm not I hadn't 

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finished my question. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: You asked a 

question, he objected, I'm sustaining it. 

DR. SELIG: I only got to the 

first part of it, there was a second part to 

that question. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: No, your question 

was, there was no notice. 

DR. SELIG: Okay. 

JUDGE GOODWIN; If you want to 

restate something, you may do that. 

Q 

BY DR. SELIG: 

If there was no notice then at 

what time interval was I supposed to check 

whatever website it may be, what is the time 

1imit? 

MR. RALEY: Obj ect ion. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Overruled. If you 

know, you may answer. 

MR. RALEY; Your Honor, the 

wi tness - -

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JUDGE GOODWIN: The witness can 

2 say whether she knows or not. 

3 MR, RALEY: Well, the witness has 

never said that the was notification. He is 

5 characterizing, he is saying that she --

6 JUDGE GOODWIN: Your objection is 

7 overruled. 

MR. RALEY: Yes, sir. 

9 JUDGE GOODWIN: If you can answer, 

10 you may do so. 

11 THE WITNESS: There was a notice 

12 of proposed rulemaking, distributed in 2002. 

13 BY DR. SELIG: 

14 Q Thank you, okay. And that notice 

15 was mailed to me? How would that notice come, 

16 how was I to know about that notice, that it 

17 was on some remote website? 

18 A The Federal Register is where all 

19 of the notice of proposed rulemakings, and 

20 rulemakings, and final rules, are published. 

21 Q All right. If I didn't know that 

22 register existed, how would I know? 

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A Dr. Selig, the aviation industry 

is a highly regulated industry. And, as a 

certificate holder, it is your responsibility 

to comply with the regulation, and know where 

to go to make sure that you are following the 

regulation. 

Q Suppose I didn't have internet 

access, or I wasn't versed and skillful in 

accessing the web. And I didn't know there 

was a change. What would I do then? 

Does that mean -- what would I do 

then, what options are there for me? 

A You could contact the Federal 

Aviation Administration. 

Q But that would assume that I knew 

that a regulation changed, and I could find 

out, but I didn't even know that the 

regulation changed. 

A It is your responsibility, as a 

certificate holder, to know and stay abreast 

of what regulations are changing that affect 

you and your certificate. 

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1 Q Does it state that in an OpSpecs, 

2 in any -- that I'm required to check a 

3 website, or whatever basis, to make sure that 

I remain compliant? 

5 Does it say it? I'm just curious, 

6 I'm confused. Maybe it says it and I' m 

missing it. 

A One moment, please. 

(Witness reviews document.) 

10 THE WITNESS: The document you 

11 handed me, R-9, 135.253(a) M&R Helicopters 

12 will comply with provisions of FAR 135.253 in 

13 regard to employees who perform a function 

14 listed in appendix J to Part 121 as this 

15 chapter, as set forth below. 

16 JUDGE GOODWIN: Just for purposes 

17 of the record, that is actually R-9 for 

18 identification. It is a correction. 

19 BY DR. SELIG: 

20 Q I'm sorry, are we back to A449? 

21 JUDGE GOODWIN: Doctor, it is 

22 Respondent's 9 for identification, is the 

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document that she referred to, which is your 

document. 

BY DR. SELIG: 

0 Okay, all right, okay. I guess we 

are back to it doesn't state parameters on how 

to access that information, is that correct? 

MR. RALEY: Objection, asked and 

answered. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: I will allow a 

little more limited enquiry. But, doctor, we 

are covering ground that we have covered 

several times, 

Her testimony is, citing to the 

paragraph that she just referenced. So 

Respondent's 9, for identification, 

135.253(b), she has stated, repeatedly, that 

it was the certificate holder's obligation to 

comply with that. 

BY DR. SELIG; 

Q Ms. Frankel, if I understand 

correctly, I am supposed to check the 

regulation, I'm not sure exactly where that 

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1 is, but we will assume that I just check the 

2 regulation. 

3 And how often am I supposed to 

4 check that, what is the frequency, the 

5 recommended frequency for checking? 

6 A As a business holder that would be 

7 your decision. 

0 So it is just random? Random, 

9 whenever you feel like it, you can do it. 

10 A As a business holder that would be 

11 your decision. 

12 Q It was said that Vincent Roots had 

13 no requirement to inform M&R of the regulation 

14 change, despite being face to face, in the 

15 same offices, in 2004, after the regulation 

16 changed. 

17 Is that policy written someplace, 

18 or --

19 A I have no experience with the 

20 inspection that Mr. Roots gave to M&R. I do 

21 not know what was said in that conversation, 

22 I was not witness to that conversation, I do 

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1 not know Mr. Roots, I can' t reall y ansv/er tha t 

2 question . 

3 Q You would have to make it .that we 

4 - - when you are face to face with a 

5 Respondent, that would be the ideal time to do 

6 some training, which is one of the 

7 requirements, in these visits, in order for 

8 people to be updated. 

9 So wouldn' t that be the optimal 

10 time in order to work out letters of 

11 correction issues, and matters such as that? 

12 A I don't understand the question, 

13 and letters of correction, I'm not 

14 understanding. 

15 Q The question is, when that auditor 

16 went to my office, face to face, going over 

17 everything, isn't there a provision for 

18 training, and correction of errors? 

19 A Not that I'm aware of. 

2 0 Q Well, I mean, it is even in 

21 LaTonya Williams, she made recommendations for 

22 correction which, essentially, would require 

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1 some kind of training. 

2 So what my question is, since 

3 LaTonya Williams did that, how come Mr. Roots 

4 didn't do that in the form of updating me to 

5 the new regulations? 

6 MR. RALEY: Objection, 

7 speculation. 

8 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sustained, asked 

9 and answered. 

10 BY DR. SELIG: 

11 Q Why was it that Mr. Roots wasn't 

12 informed of the regulation change himself? 

13 A I do not know that Mr. Roots 

14 wasn't informed of the regulation change. 

15 Q Okay. Now, these regulations were 

16 changed for what reason? Why were the 

17 regulations changed? It says it multiple 

18 times in these documents. 

19 A To provide safety for the flying 

20 public. 

21 Q Well, what was the main reason? 

22 A To make sure that safety-sensitive 

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1 employees were always under a drug and alcohol 

2 program, and that the employer was able to 

3 have access to those test records, and to be 

4 able to conduct reasonable suspicion testing. 

5 Q Okay, I'm looking at this A-11 

6 which, by the way, should come with a bottle 

7 of Motrin, and a new pair of eyeglasses --

8 JUDGE GOODWIN: Doctor --

9 MR. RALEY: Objection. 

10 JUDGE GOODWIN: Those comments are 

11 not helpful to the Court. 

12 DR. SELIG: Okay. 

13 BY DR. SELIG: 

14 Q Now, it says, throughout these 

15 documents, that there are basically two 

16 reasons for all this re-write. And do you 

17 agree that it was for clarity, and convenient 

18 relocation of the regulations? 

19 A A-11? 

20 Q Yes, A-11 was 2000 -- actually it 

21 mentions just a rewrite on this. This was for 

22 clarity, the 2004 document? 

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1 A One moment, please. 

2 (Witness reviews document.) 

3 THE WITNESS: The summary on page 

4 1840, of the Federal Register, which is 

5 Exhibit A-11, as a result of a number of years 

6 of experience inspecting the aviation 

7 industry's anti-drug and alcohol misuse 

8 prevention program, the FAA is clarifying 

9 regulatory language, increasing consistency 

10 between the anti-drug and alcohol misuse 

11 prevention program regulations, where 

12 possible. 

13 BY DR. SELIG: 

14 Q Thank you. 

15 A And eliminating regulatory 

16 provisions that are no longer appropriate. 

17 Q Very good, okay. So this was 

18 rewritten because there were some issues with 

19 clarity, okay? So there was a definite reason 

20 for this, and it is the same reason that I'm 

21 saying that there was no clarity. 

2 2 Now, so these regulations 

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1 basically changed two times, for clarity. 

2 Now, could it be that the regulations were 

3 changed because the operators could not find 

4 the regulations, or they were difficult to 

5 understand? 

6 MR. RALEY: Objection, calls for 

7 speculation. 

8 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sustained. There 

9 is no basis, no foundation for the question. 

10 BY DR. SELIG: 

11 Q Ms. Frankel, why were these 

12 regulations relocated, what was the reason for 

13 that? 

14 MR. RALEY: Objection. 

15 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sustained. There 

16 is no - - there is no foundation for the 

17 question, doctor. 

18 BY DR. SELIG: 

19 Q Do you agree that the regulations 

20 were changed for clarity, so it would improve 

21 compliance and safety of the public? 

22 MR. RALEY: Objection, Your Honor. 

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JUDGE GOODWIN: Sustained. 

2 DR. SELIG: Essentially I just 

3 paraphrased it. It says it here, the proposed 

4 change is to improve safety and lessen 

5 administrative burdens. 

MR. RALEY: Objection, Your Honor. 

BY DR. SELIG: 

Q Now, when I read this A-11, does 

9 it state anywhere the methods of compliance? 

10 In this document, I'm just addressing this A11 11. 

12 A When you read it? I'm not 

13 understanding the question. 

14 Q This document, A-11, does it say 

15 anywhere how the methods of compliance, so 

16 this was basically what we were referring to, 

17 and how often I was supposed to check this, or 

18 -- I mean, how was I supposed to comply with 

,19 this? 

20 MR. RALEY: Objection, asked and 

21 answered. 

22 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sustained. 

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BY DR. SELIG: 

2 Q Now, I mentioned my Order 8900, 

3 which represented that the information 

4 management system was started in 2007. 

5 Now, Ms. Lozada stated that drug 

6 abatement information is at a different site, 

is that correct? 

A I'm sorry, I don't understand your 

9 question. 

10 0 The -- I'm sorry, yes, she was 

11 here yesterday, but okay. 

12 I presented Order 8900, which was 

13 the initiation of the flight standards 

14 information system. And the testimony 

15 yesterday was that this was a different 

16 website location of where the drug and 

17 abatement regulations are placed. 

18 Is that a true statement? 

19 MR. RALEY: Objection. 

20 JUDGE GOODWIN: Overruled. If you 

21 can answer. 

22 THE WITNESS: The flight -- if I'm 

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understanding your question correctly, the 

flight standards division is a separate 

3 division of where the drug abatement division 

4 goes in. 

5 So the flight standards, if flight 

6 standards has a website, it would not include 

drug abatement regulations, as would drug 

abatement regulations would not include flight 

9 standards regulations. 

10 BY DR. SELIG: 

11 Q Thank you, I was not clear about 

12 that. Soitis a different website. 

13 Now, when did the drug abatement 

14 information management system go into effect? 

15 A I don' t, I'm not aware of that 

16 information management system. 

17 Q Well, let'sjust say, when was 

18 your drug abatement regulations put on the 

19 website, in order for people to refer to? Was 

20 it around 2007 also? 

21 A I don't know exactly what year. 

22 The regulations have gone, for the FAA the 

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1 regulations have all gone to the website at 

2 the same time. 

3 Q So probably about 2007? 

4 A I don't know. 

5 Q Well, that is my problem. If the 

6 regulations, since you don't know when the 

7 regulations went in, you violated me for a 

8 regulation change in 2004, or other parts of 

9 the FAA websites became active 2007. 

10 So, automatically, it would be 

11 impossible for me to be compliant with those 

12 2 0 04 changes, is that correct? 

13 MR. RALEY: Objection, assuming 

14 facts not in evidence. 

15 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sustained. 

16 BY DR. SELIG: 

17 Q Based on what you just said, it 

18 appears that it may be that those 2004 

19 regulations were not available on a website 

20 for me to review. 

21 MR. RALEY: Objection, Your Honor. 

22 JUDGE GOODWIN: There is no 

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1 question pending. That is a statement, 

2 doctor. 

3 BY DR. SELIG: 

4 Q Do you agree to that statement? 

5 A The regulations have always been 

6 available to people who have certificates. 

7 I'm not sure about the website, but 

8 regulations and the FARs have always been 

9 available for certificate holders, to make 

10 sure that they can follow them. 

11 Q Well, the earlier discussion was 

12 that I was required to look at the websites, 

13 or to find the regulations, you know. Federal 

14 Registry. But now you are telling me that --

15 or it appears that you are not really sure 

16 when that information was going on the 

17 website? 

18 MR. RALEY: Objection, Your Honor. 

19 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sustained. 

20 BY DR. SELIG: 

21 Q Are you aware of how the methods 

2 2 of compliance, for instance, for your A449, 

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1 the OpSpecs, are you aware of the methods of 

2 compliance for that? 

3 A With the A449 paragraph? 

Q Yes . 

A Yes . 

6 Q And do you - - are you aware that 

7 those OpSpecs perhaps other than the A449, all 

8 of the other chapters of the OpSpecs are 

9 updated, rewritten, printed, and then 

10 physically replaced pages, which are 

11 substantively re-signed of f , and confirmed, by 

12 the operator, that he is aware of the recent 

13 changes? 

14 Are you aware of that is how the 

15 other OpSpecs, everything else in the OpSpecs 

16 operate? It is a very physical face to face 

17 process. Are you aware of that? 

18 MR. RALEY: Objection, assuming 

19 facts not in evidence. 

20 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sustained. It is 

21 not relevant doctor. This case is not about 

22 the OpSpecs. 

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DR. SELIG: But it is about 

noti fication. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, the Court 

will determine what the case is about. 

DR. SELIG: Yes, sir. Yes, Your 

Honor. 

BY DR. SELIG: 

Q If you were a lay person, and 

9 weren't a smart supervisor of these OpSpecs, 

10 and knew them well, and you knew about these 

11 other methods of compliance, with the printed 

12 pages, and things like that, wouldn't you - -

13 wouldn't it follow suit that you would think 

14 the other parts of the OpSpecs would follow 

15 the same procedure? 

16 MR. RALEY: Objection, Your Honor. 

17 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sustained. 

18 BY DR. SELIG: 

19 Q We mentioned the moonlighting 

20 provision. That it occurred some time in 

21 2009. That there was a definite mention to 

22 the moonlighting. 

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1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

But there was never, really, the 

phraseology of that was never really 

determined, it was not brought up, it sort of 

got sidetracked. 

Can you direct me to where that 

moonlighting provision was, that disallowed 

moonlighting of an A&P mechanic? 

A One moment, please. 

(Witness'reviews document.) 

THE WITNESS: On page 1843 of the 

Federal Register, Volume 69, number 7 --

BY DR. SELIG: 

Q I'm sorry, which exhibit? 

A This is exhibit A-11. 

Q A-11. 

A Which is the Federal Register 

Volume 69, number 7, page 1843. The first 

complete paragraph, in the first column reads: 

We propose to change the 

definition of employer, to close a loophole 

that was sometimes referred to as 

moonlighting. Under the moonlighting 

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1 loophole, when an employee was covered under 

2 an employer's drug testing program, employer 

3 A, another employer, employer B, could have 

4 used that employee to perform safety-sensitive 

5 functions, even when the work was unrelated to 

6 the employee's work with employer A. 

7 In many cases, however, employer A 

8 was unaware of the employee's activities for 

9 employer B. One problem arising from this was 

10 that if employer A terminated the employee, 

11 employer B might not know that the employer 

12 was no longer covered by employer A's drug 

13 testing program. 

14 Q Okay, thank you. There was 

15 testimony, yesterday, that this moonlighting 

16 change happened prior to 2004. It looks like 

17 it is in 2004? 

18 MR. RALEY: Objection. 

19 JUDGE GOODWIN: There is no 

20 question pending. 

21 BY DR. SELIG: 

2 2 Q Do you believ e tha t th e maximum 

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4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

7 0 

sanctions are proper, based on purely the 

operator having a certificate, perhaps 

mistakenly not listed as inactive, never 

conducting flights, either before, during, or 

after the violation period? 

The operations inspector was 

notified of the suspension, wrote the letter 

that suspended operations, but failed to 

register the certificate inactive, perhaps due 

to medical leave. 

These are the underlying 

conditions that I just want to see if you 

would follow suit with, and if you agree that 

maximum sanctions maybe should not be 

determined because of all of these mitigating 

factors? 

DR. SELIG: If I may finish? 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Doctor, that is a 

compound question. 

MR. RALEY: 11 i s compound. 

DR. SELIG: Well, I'm setting the 

premise. 

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BY DR. SELIG: 

2 Q Basically the question is, do you 

3 believe maximum sanctions should be rendered? 

4 And then I'm giving the underlying --

5 JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, ask that 

6 question. 

7 DR. SELIG: I'm trying to set the 

premise, to put it in perspective. Your Honor? 

If I may do that for the Court? 

10 JUDGE GOODWIN: Go ahead. , 

11 BY DR. SELIG: 

12 Q So that the -- we are back to the 

13 --do you believe that the maximum sanctions 

14 should be issued, despite a lot of mitigating 

15 factors, which include the issues I have just 

16 mentioned, the operation inspector rendered 

17 the operation inactive, and instructed the 

18 operator not to fly any operations. 

19 The company was in moratorium, as 

20 well as under part 119.69 due to human 

21. factors. The OpSpecs were incomplete, and 

22 never updated. The signed-off, agreed-to 

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1 OpSpecs were prior to the 2004 changes. 

2 The company was restructured, 

3 changing names, making the OpSpecs invalid, 

4 the operation had no pilot. There was never 

5 any mention, by any FAA officer, of document 

6 or listings, concerning a drug program 

7 website. 

8 There was never notification of 

9 the 2004 regulation change. There was never 

10 notification about moonlighting exclusions 

11 prior to 2004 . 

12 It was not reasonable --so based 

13 on all those mitigating circumstances, and I 

14 agree the situation is complex. But the point 

15 being is no flights were flown. 

16 Do you believe maximum sanctions 

17 are warranted? 

18 MR. RALEY: Objection, Your Honor, 

19 assuming facts not in evidence. 

20 JUDGE GOODWIN: Overruled, if you 

21 can answer. If you can answer the question. 

22 THE WITNESS: I believe the 

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1 Operator should follow the regulations, and 

2 the section guidance, in 21.53(b) should be 

3 followed as ordered. 

BY DR. SELIG: 

5 Q Now, this A-13, is the legal 

6 interpretation, do you believe that this is a 

7 reasonable comment, even though it does not 

pertain to a company where a certificate may 

be inactive, was in suspension, had 

10 restructured, had no valid OpSpecs, had no 

11 pilot, did not flights, during and after the 

12 violation period? 

13 Do you think that you can apply 

14 this interpretation to my case scenario? 

15 A I don't know where you are -- can 

16 you tell me where you are reading? On A-13, 

17 are you reading on A-13? 

18 Q Yes, basically it is the second 

19 page, and it talks about whether the aircraft 

20 is flown is not relevant. It is the last 

21 paragraph, it is just a short little brief 

22 answer, that someone asked. 

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1 A Yes, I know where you are - - I 

2 don't remember the question. 

3 Q The question is, do you think that 

4 this interpretation should apply to the case 

5 of MSTR Helicopters? 

6 A Yes. 

7 Q Even though there was no active 

certificate, it was in suspension, and all the 

9 other parameters that complicate this matter, 

10 the OpSpecs were invalid, no notification 

11 process. 

12 Do you still think that should 

13 apply? There is no pilot? 

14 A The violation would occur if 

15 substantive maintenance is performed, and 

16 whether the aircraft is flown is not relevant. 

17 I'm agreeing with that statement. 

18 Q Okay. Now, I presented two case 

19 law precedents for this matter. Do you 

20 believe -- do you know of any case law that 

21 follows? This is just something - - someone 

22 writing to this assistant for regulations. 

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9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

Do you know of any case law that 

supports that statement? 

MR. RALEY: Objection. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Sustained. 

BY DR. SELIG: 

Q Now, you submitted A-12, or A-12 

was submitted, which I objected to, because 

this is a - -

JUDGE GOODWIN: Doctor, ask a 

question. 

BY DR. SELIG: 

Q Could you please tell me how, 

explain to me how this 2009 document pertains 

to a violation in 2008? How does this 

document pertain to a 2008 violation? 

A The Federal -- A-12, the Federal 

Register Volume 74, number 92, just talks 

about how we put our appendices into its own 

part. And I guess I don't understand the 

quest ion. 

Q Okay, so the purpose of this 

document, that you presented the Court, even 

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1 though it doesn't apply to my particular case, 

2 was just to show that all these regulations 

3 were relocated, is that correct? 

4 A They were combined and moved into 

5 their own part. 

5 Q Right, combined, shifted around, 

7 okay. So it looks as if the Agency really 

8 went to a lot of effort to try to organize 

9 these, so it would be easy for people to find, 

10 basically. Is that a fair assumption? 

11 A No. They combined the regulation, 

12 they were in appendices, two separate 

13 appendices, they wanted to move it to its own 

14 part, and make it one single part. 

15 Q To simplify them? 

16 A To combine and make it into- its 

17 own part. 

IS 0 Okay, good. Would it be a fair 

19 statement to say that MScR really got caught up 

20 in the cross-fire of regulation changes, and 

21 changes in the notification process, because 

22 there were some flaws somewhere a long time --

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wouldn't that be a fair statement? 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

A No. 

Q Okay. And, again, I guess you are 

saying that A-12, also just required that an 

operator, randomly going on a website, somehow 

and digging this out, through hundreds of 

pages of regulations, that there is really no 

direction, or assistance, to try to help the 

operator to find this? 

Because you would just have to go 

searching for it . Is that pretty much how 

this works? 

A A certificate holder IS 

responsible for staying updated with the 

regulations - -

Q 

A 

I understand. 

that his certificate falls 

under. 

Q I understand. Ms. Floraponto, and 

Ms. Williams, they work in your department? 

A No. Ms. Williams works for the --

JUDGE GOODWIN: There is no 

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9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

0 0 

question pending. 

THE WITNESS: Okay, sorry, you are 

right. Sorry. 

Q 

BY DR. SELIG: 

Now, document 120.lAl, which is in 

the document library, specifically says that 

legal enforcement action include circumstances 

where serious safety issues are involved, or 

there is a pattern of non-compliance, that 

indicates an inability or an unwillingness to 

comply with regulatory requirements. 

Now, can you cite, to me, what --

how is that phrasing involves serious safety 

issues, how by not flying the aircraft, after 

Mr. Baker did the maintenance, how did I 

involve serious safety issue? 

A A 13 5 certificate holder must 

maintain their aircraft to 135 specifications, 

which includes any maintenance, or preventive 

maintenance, that is done on the aircraft, 

must stay to 135 standards. 

Q Okay. 

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1 A That mechanic must be under either 

2 the company's drug and alcohol program, or 

3 their own drug and alcohol program. 

4 Q Thank you, got it. So you are 

5 saying, speculative -- I'm using Mr. Raley's 

6 work, speculatively, potentially, there was a 

7 safety issue, correct? It is speculative? 

8 It speculatively could have been a 

9 serious safety issue. 

10 A There could have been a safety 

11 issue. 

12 Q Speculative statement? 

13 A There could have been a safety 

14 issue, a catastrophic safety issue. 

15 Q Now, this statement does not enter 

16 any speculation, it says involved, and he put 

17 serious in there, serious safety issues, 

18 involved serious safety issues. 

19 They are not leaving room for 

20 speculation. 

21 A I'm not familiar with the 

22 document. Do I have that up here, s o I can 

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read it? 

Q Well, I have the website which --

3 okay, it is Federal Aviation 

4 Administrat ion.comdoclibrary/media/ - -

JUDGE GOODWIN: Doctor, if she 

doesn't have an exhibit in front of her, she 

can't describe it. 

DR. SELIG: Well, I can show her 

what the phrasing is. 

10 JUDGE GOODWIN: Are you marking 

11 that for identification. 

12 DR. SELIG: I don't have a copy of 

13 this. I can give one copy. 

14 JUDGE GOODWIN: Ask the question 

15 and we will go from there. 

16 DR. SELIG r Okay. Well, can I 

17 cite the reference? 

18 JUDGE GOODWIN: You can ask a 

19 question. The Court is not here to - -

20 DR. SELIG: Okay. 

21 BY DR. SELIG: 

2 2 Q So that phrasing is really the 

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9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

2-1 

22 

parameters to initiate violation. So I guess 

do you believe that phrasing, involves serious 

safety issue, applies to case where we didn't 

have an accident or an incident? 

MR. RALEY: Objection, Your Honor. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Sustained. I'm 

not interested in what the witness believes. 

DR. SELIG: Okay. 

BY DR. SELIG: 

Q Was there an unwillingness to 

comply with regulations? 

A Yes . 

Q There was unwillingness? 

A Well, I feel that by stating that 

there wasn't really a violation, that there is 

an unwillingness to accept, by the operator, 

that a violation occurred. 

Q Well, that is not what was said. 

But I think the point being is that - -

JUDGE GOODWIN: Doctor, ask a 

question, and stop arguing the witness. 

BY DR. SELIG: 

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0 As soon as M&R found out about 

this regulation, didn't they immediately 

correct it? 

A I believe so. 

5 Q Yes, okay. So there was no 

6 unwillingness, okay, all right. You just 

7 changed your stance, okay. 

S MR. RALEY: Objection, Your Honor. 

9 JUDGE GOODWIN: The comments, 

10 doctor, are not helpful. 

11 DR. SELIG: Yes, Your Honor. 

12 BY DR. SELIG: 

13 Q So it is your premise that -- back 

14 to the initiation of this certificate issue. 

15 Excuse me, let me rephrase that. 

16 If there was an inactive 

17 certificate, if that certificate was properly 

18 made inactive, would the violation still be in 

19 place? 

20 A If the violation -- if the 

21 certificate was made inactive by flight 

stand.ards, ther e would be no violation, 

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3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

because there would not have been an 

inspection. 

Q Okay. Well, could it be that the 

FAA officer, not officer -- okay, well, that 

is a -- so even though I told Ms. Williams 

that I was inactive, had no pilot, changed the 

name, she pursued the -- she pursued the 

investigation, anyway. 

MR. RALEY: Objection, Your Honor. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Is that a 

question, doctor? 

Q 

BY DR. SELIG 

So that if I stated to Ms. 

Williams that I was inactive, shouldn't she 

not have had me audited? 

A The certificate was active. 

Q I guess that is where we go back. 

Does a certificate depend on OpSpecs being 

current and accurate? 

A I'm not a flight standards expert. 

Q Well, that is a problem, we don't 

have an information basis that is accurate. 

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1 JUDGE GOODWIN: Doctor, you are 

2 arguing the case. That is the Court's area. 

3 DR. SELIG: Yes, Your Honor. I 

4 have no questions, no more questions. 

5 JUDGE GOODWIN: Any redirect? 

6 MR. RALEY: Yes, Your Honor. 

7 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 

8 BY MR. RALEY: 

9 Q I'd like to direct your attention 

10 to Exhibit A-1, which has been admitted into 

11 evidence. 

12 Could you please read the first 

13 paragraph, underneath the box, in the center 

14 of the first page? 

15 A The certificate holder shall 

16 conduct these kinds of operations, in 

17 accordance with the specific authorizations, 

18 limitations, and procedures, in these 

19 operations specification, and all appropriate 

20 parts of the CFR. 

21 Q Would Part 121 appendices I and J, 

22 be an appropriate part of the CFR? 

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A Yes . 

Q I would like to direct your 

attention to exhibit A-2. 

A Yes. 

5 Q Under section A, can you please 

5 read that? 

A Yes. The certificate holder, who 

operates under Title 14, Code of Federal 

9 Regulations, Part 135, certifies that it will 

10 comply with the requirements for 14CFR Part 

11 121, appendices I and J, and 49 CFR Part 40, 

12 for its anti-drug and alcohol misuse 

13 prevention program. 

14 Q Does this provision notify the 

15 operator of where they can locate these 

16 regulations? 

17 A Yes. 

18 Q What regulations? 

19 A These. 

20 Q I'd like to direct your attention 

21 to A-11. What date was the Notice of Proposed 

22 -- what year, let's go with the year, what 

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1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

year was the Notice of Proposed Rulemaking 

begun? 

A One moment, please. 

(Witness reviews document.) 

BY MR. RALEY: 

Q I direct your attention to page 

A Thank you. 

DR. SELIG: I'm sorry, this is AMR. RALEY: Yes. 

1841 . 

11? 

THE WITNESS: On page 1841, of 

Exhibit A-11, Federal Register, Volume 69, 

Number 7, the first paragraph reads: 

On February 28th, 2002, the FAA 

publi shed a Notice of Proposed Rulemaking, 

notice 02-04. 

BY MR. RALEY: 

Q Thank you. What date was this 

rule published in the Federal Register? 

A This rule was published on Monday, 

January 12th, 2004. 

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1 Q What date did this rule become 

2 effective? 

3 A This became effective February 

4 11th, 2004. 

5 Q What year did these violations 

6 occur, that are alleged here, in this hearing 

7 today? 

8 A In 2008. 

9 Q I'd like to direct your attention 

10 to page 1840 of A-11. 

11 A Yes, sir. 

12 Q At the bottom of the first column, 

13 the heading, Availability of Rulemaking 

14 documents. Can you please read what it says 

15 in that section? 

16 A Yes. Availability of Rulemaking 

17 Documents. You can get an electronic copy, 

18 using the internet by one, searching the 

19 Department of Transportation's electronic 

2 0 docket management system webpage. And it 

21 gives the webpage. 

2 2 Number 2, visiting the office of 

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1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

2 2 

rulemaking's webpage, and it gives the email, 

or the webpage, excuse me. 

Number 3, accessing the Government 

Printing Office's webpage, and it cites the 

webpage. You can also get a copy by 

submitting a request to the Federal Aviation 

Administration, office of Rulemaking, ARM-1 

800 Independence Avenue, SW, Washington, D.C. 

20591, or by calling area code 202-267-9680. 

Make sure to identify the 

amendment number, or docket number of this 

rulemaking. 

Q Thank you. I'd like to direct 

your attention to A-12. On page 22649 of A-12 

A Yes? 

Q -- the center column -~ 

A Yes . 

Q -- for further information contact 

-- would you please read that? 

A Yes. For further information 

contact Raphael Ramos, Office of Aerospace 

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1 Medicine, Drug Abatement Division, at 800 

2 Federal Aviation Administration, 80 0 

3 Independence Avenue, SW, Washington, D.C. 

4 20591, telephone .number 202-267-8442, 

5 facsimil e 202-267-5200 , emai l 

6 drugabatement@faa.gov. 

7 Q Thank you. 

MR. RALEY: One moment, Your 

9 Honor. 

10 (Pause.) 

11 BY MR. RALEY: 

12 0 Just to be clear, Ms. Frankel, 

13 where are these rules, and in what document, 

14 what set of documents, what volume, are these 

15 rules located in? 

16 A These rules are available in CFR, 

17 1 just want to make sure I say it right. 14 

18 CFR Part 120 currently. 

19 Q But the - - I'm sorry, I wasn' t 

20 very clear here. The rulemaking, where is the 

21 rulemaking published? 

22 A The rulemaking is published in the 

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1 Federal Register. 

2 MR. RALEY: Thank you, no further 

3 questions. Your Honor. 

4 JUDGE GOODWIN: Are you finished 

with this witness? 

MR. RALEY: Yes. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Ms. Frankel, you 

may step down and I'm going to instruct you 

9 not to discuss your testimony with anybody 

10 prior to the conclusion of the hearing. 

11 DR. SELIG: If it may please the 

12 Court? 

13 JUDGE GOODWIN: What? 

14 DR. SELIG: If I may just have a 

15 brief rebuttal? 

16 JUDGE GOODWIN: We haven't - -

17 rebuttal what? 

18 DR. SELIG: Well, I mean, I just 

19 have some -- based on what he has just entered 

20 into evidence, I have some questions. 

21 JUDGE GOODWIN: Ms. Frankel, 

22 return to the seat . You may ask questions 

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1 only based on the questions asked by Mr. 

2 Raley. 

3 DR. SELIG: Okay. 

4 RECROSS-EXAMINATION 

5 BY DR. SELIG: 

6 Q Back to A-11, 1040, and you read a 

7 very nice section about the availability of 

8 rulemaking documents. 

9 This would have been a very 

10 helpful if one knew about this document, 

11 wouldn't you agree it is, more or less, like 

12 the cart before the horse type case scenario? 

13 " That if you didn't know that this 

14 document existed, and with no reference in the 

15 OpSpecs or compliance statement, and perhaps 

16 you weren't internet, you weren't a skilled 

17 internet browser, you wouldn't know about 

18 this? 

19 MR. RALEY: Objection , Your Honor. 

20 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sustained . I t i s 

21 beyon d th e scope . 

22 BY DR. SELIG: 

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1 Q This availability of rulemaking 

2 documents, does this appear in the compliance 

3 statement, or the OpSpecs? 

4 A I'm sorry, can you tell me what 

5 page you are reading from? 

6 Q It is what you just read, it is 

7 the Nay 11th --

A I read a few things. 

9 Q 1840. 

10 A Okay. 

11 Q It is, basically, available in 

12 rulemaking documents. 

13 A Okay. 

14 Q Now, if that was in the OpSpecs, 

15 and the compliance statement, this probably 

16 would have never been an issue, right? 

17 MR . RALEY: Objection, 

18 speculation. 

19 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sustained, it is 

20 beyond the scope. 

21 DR. SELIG: No further questions, 

22 Your Honor. 

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1 JUDGE GOODWIN: Ms. Frankel, you 

2 may step down. 

Now, we took witnesses out of 

4 order, to give Dr. Selig an opportunity to 

5 prepare for cross. You were excused here 

6 yesterday, so that the Court's review of the 

7 posture of the case is that the FAA 

effectively rested yesterday, subject to Dr. 

9 Selig's opportunity to cross-examine Ms. 

10 Frankel. 

11 Dr. Selig, do you have any 

12 witnesses, any further --

13 .DR . SELIG: I just have a closing 

14 statement. 

15 JUDGE GOODWIN: But there is no 

16 further evidence, or testimony, is that 

17 correct? 

18 DR. SELIG: Correct. 

19 JUDGE GOODWIN: Do you have any 

20 rebuttal? 

21 MR. RALEY: I do, Your Honor. We 

22 recall Kim Barnette for rebuttal. 

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1 JUDGE GOODWIN: It is 10:07, 

2 according to - - you do the same thing I do. 

3 Dr. Selig just reflexively turned to the back 

4 of the courtroom, which I know exactly where 

5 you are coming from. 

6 We are going to take a 15 

7 minute break, we will come back on the record 

8 at 10:20. 10:25, I'm sorry. So we are off the 

9 record. 

10 {Whereupon, the above-entitled 

11 matter went off the record at 

12 10:07a.m. and went back on the 

13 record at 10:28 a.m.) 

14 JUDGE GOODWIN: On the record. 

15 MR. RALEY: Your Honor, I would 

16 like t o call Mr. Kim Barnette, for rebuttal 

17 purposes. 

18 Whereupon, 

19 KIM BARNETTE 

20 was called as a witness by Counsel for the 

21 Complainant and, having been duly sworn, 

2 2 assumed the witness stand, was examined and 

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1 testified as follows: 

2 JUDGE GOODWIN: Please be seated, 

3 state your full name for the record, and spell 

4 your first'and last name. 

5 THE WITNESS: My name is Kim 

6 Barnette , K-I-M, B-A-R-N-E-T-T-E . 

7 DIRECT EXAMINATION 

BY MR. RALEY: 

9 Q Mr. Barnette, are you currently 

10 employed? 

11 A Yes, sir, I am. 

12 Q With whom are you currently 

13 employed? 

14 A With the Federal Aviation 

15 Administration. 

16 Q And what is your j ob at the 

17 Federal Aviation Administration? 

18 A I'm an air worthiness safety 

19 inspector for general aviation, and AMS 300, 

20 and all • writing policies, procedures, 

21 regulations for aircraft maintenance. 

2 2 Q How long have you been in that 

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1 position? 

2 A I have been in that position since 

3 September of ' 01 . 

4 Q Prior to September of '01 what was 

5 your job? 

6 A Prior to September of '01, I was 

7 an aviation safety inspector, airworthiness, 

8 Eastern Field Offices. I was in Brandise from 

9 September of 1990 to 1994. 

10 In June or July of 1994 I moved to 

11 Baltimore and served there, and I was an 

12 airworthiness inspector and principal 

13 inspector for maintenance. 

14 Q Mr. Barnette, what federal 

15 regulations cover commuter and on-demand 

16 operations? 

17 A Part 135. 

18 Q What federal regulations cover 

19 maintenance performed on aircraft that are 

20 listed on part 135 OpSpecs? 

21 A Part 135 and parts 43. 

22 Q Isal l maintenance performed on 

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1 aircraft listed on part 135 OpSpecs, required 

2 to be done under the regulations in part 135? 

3 A Yes, sir. 

4 0 Does that include adherence to the 

5 drug and alcohol regulations formerly 

6 contained in Part 121 appendices I and J? 

7 A Yes, it does. 

8 Q What can a holder of a part 119 

9 certificate, with operations specifications, 

10 authorizing a part 135 operations, do if they 

11 do not want to adhere to the regulations 

12 contained in part 135, and part 121 appendices 

13 I and J? 

14 A Maintenance of a regular 

15 certificate. 

16 Q As the holder of part 135 

17 operations specs, would Respondent be required 

18 to perform all maintenance in accordance with 

19 Part 135? 

20 A Yes. 

21 Q Does tha t include adherence t o 

22 Part 120 appendice s I and J ? 

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1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

A Yes . 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

0 Would the maintenance performed, 

on an aircraft, listed on Respondent's part 

135 operation specifications, be required to 

be performed by a mechanic that was under a 

testing program, as delineated in part 121 

appendices I and J? 

A Yes . 

Q Under part 119, is a part 119 

certificate holder required to comply with 

their operation specifications.? 

A Yes, they are. 

Q Even if they are not conducting 

part 13 5 operations? 

A Yes . 

Q If Respondent is only conducting 

part 91 operations, does it still have to 

comply with the drug and alcohol regulations, 

contained in part 121, appendices I and J? 

A Yes. 

Q Does Respondent have to maintain 

its aircraft, listed on his operation 

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9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

specifications, in accordance with Part 135? 

A Could you repeat, please? 

Q Does Respondent, in this case, 

have to maintain the aircraft that is listed 

in its operation specifications, that 

authorise part 135 operations, in accordance 

with Part 135? 

A Yes. 

Q What, if any, documents did you 

review in this matter? 

A I reviewed the vital information 

contained in the FAA data base for who the 

operator was, and I reviewed the PTRS, the 

program record tracking subsystem records, for 

surveillance and inspections of the operator 

for the past ten years. 

Q I would like to show you what is 

being marked as Complainant's Exhibit A-15. 

{Whereupon, the above-referenced 

to document was marked as 

Complainant Exhibit No. A-15 for 

identification.) 

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1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

BY MR. RALEY: 

Q Mr. Barnette, do you recognize 

this document? 

A Yes, I do. 

Q What is this document? 

A This document is a printing of the 

VIS data contained in the vital information 

system. And all for 135 operator certificate 

number is Mike, Romeo, 3, alpha, 020 Kilo, for 

a 135 operator, operating a Bell 206 

helicopter. 

The records show me that they are 

in process of a name change. 

Q Would a name change, change the 

certificate number? 

A No, it will not. 

Q What is the date that this 

certificate was last validated? 

A Last validation for this 

certificate was 6-10 of 2011. 

Q Is this document contained, or 

maintained in the normal course of business at 

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9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

the Federal Aviation Administration? 

A Yes, it is. 

Q Did you produce this document? 

A Yes, I printed the document. 

MR. RALEY: At this time I would 

move to have exhibit A-15 entered into 

evidence. 

obj ection? 

Honor. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Dr. Sel ig, any 

DR. SELIG: No objections. Your 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Agency 15, for 

identification, is received into evidence as 

Agency 15. 

(The document referred to, having 

been previously marked for 

identification as Complainant 

Exhibit No. A-15 was admitted in 

evidence.) 

BY MR. RALEY: 

Q I would like to, now, show you 

what has been marked as Complainant's Exhibit 

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9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

A-16 . 

(Whereupon, the above-referenced 

to document was marked as 

Complainant Exhibit No. A-16 for 

identification.) 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Sixteen? 

MR. RALEY: Sixteen, one, six. 

Yes, Your Honor. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay, I thought 

you said 15. 

BY MR. RALEY: 

Q Mr. Barnette, do you recogni2:e 

this document? 

A Yes, this is a record of the 

surveillance activities performed now for a 

135 operator, designator Mike, Romeo, 3, 

Alpha, between March of 2004 through November 

of 2010. 

Q And, to be clear, is this the 

report for Respondent in this case? 

A Yes. 

Q How many inspections , o r 

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1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

2.2 

surveillance inspections have occurred during 

this date range? 

A 122 . 

0 When was the last inspection? 

A The last inspection was 11-29-

2011 . 

MR. RALEY: One moment. 

(Pause.) 

BY MR. RALEY: 

Q Does the Federal Aviation 

Administration conduct surveillance 

inspections for compliance with Part 119 

certificate regulations of entities that have 

-- that no longer have OpSpecs? 

A No, it did not. 

Q So if an entity has current 

operations, that triggers the current 

operation specifications, that triggers these 

surveillance inspections? 

A Yes, it does. 

MR. RALEY: Tha t i s al l I have . 

Your Honor. 

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1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

one moment. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 

MR. RALEY: I'm sorry. Your Honor, 

(Pause.) 

MR. RALEY: At this time I would 

like to move Complainant' s Exhibit A-16 be 

moved into evidence. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Any objection? 

DR. SELIG: No, Your Honor. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Agency 16, for 

identification, is received into evidence as 

Agency 16. 

Q 

2012 

(The document referred to, having 

been previously marked for 

identification as Complainant 

Exhibit No. A-16 was admitted in 

evidence.) 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Any cross? 

CROSS-EXAMINATION 

BY DR. SELIG: 

A-15 is a list of -- dated 1-18-

that Mr. Raley indicated the 

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1 certificate was active. 

2 What procedure would be utilized 

3 in order to make this, lists this as a 

4 suspended operation? Are you aware of the 

5 procedure that would be required? 

6 A If to move the operator into 

7 inactive requires either a legal enforcement 

8 action, with a court order, or the operator 

9 himself voluntarily surrenders his 

10 cert ificate. 

11 Q Suppose you just wanted to 

12 temporarily, under 119.6-9, human factors, 

13 that just because a single pilot operator 

14 can't perform the operations, can't perform 

15 the flights, rather than surrendering the 

16 certificate, just putting it in suspension, 

17 just temporary, a temporary measure. Is there 

18 a temporary measure? 

19 A There are no temporary measures in 

20 our system. 

21 Q I see. And if you were going to 

2 2 apply to make a certificate -- if you were 

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1 going to surrender a certificate, through some 

2 formal process, what do you need to do for 

3 that? 

4 A There is a form process for that. 

5 Q Okay. Now, this A-16, I'm not 

6 familiar with it. Could you please explain? 

7 These are inspections on the aircraft? 

8 A These are inspections on the 

9 operations, some being inspections for the 

10 aircraft, some of them are for recordkeeping 

11 with the operations, some of them are flight 

12 checks. 

13 Q I see. 

14 A And this is the total, this looks 

15 at the entire operation, it looks at 

16 personnel, operator, and the equipment. 

17 Q Okay, I see. Now, these 

18 inspections, how - - are these performed by 

19 various techniques? For instance, was my 

20 aircraft -- my aircraft inspected during that 

21 time, when it is at the airport from 2 0 04, 

22 let's say? 

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A There are records in here where 

2 the aircraft has been inspected. Some of them 

3 were routine inspections, right up to -- there 

4 are a couple of records in here that were 

5 actually -- where the aircraft was inspected 

6 while it was in the shop for maintenance. 

7 Q Okay. And so there would not be 

8 any indication, on these records, that there 

9 was no pilot, and there were no flights? 

10 A No. 

11 Q Okay. Now, I just want to 

12 understand something. So my operation, my 

13 maintenance inspector, can you tell me if he 

14 had absolutely no obligation, while inspecting 

15 these aircraft, to question the people 

16 performing services on this aircraft? 

17 MR. RALEY: Objection, Your Honor, 

18 vague. The question - -

19 JUDGE GOODWIN: Answer the 

20 question if you can answer it. If you can't, 

21 say so. 

22 THE WITNESS: Would you repeat the 

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question, please, sir? 

2 BY DR. SELIG: 

3 Q Does -- for instance, you 

4 mentioned how the aircraft is inspected in 

5 maintenance, and on the ramp, etcetera. And 

6 these probably were done by my maintenance 

7 inspector. 

Did he have any obligation, or 

9 responsibility, to question who was working on 

10 the aircraft? 

11 A Did--ital l depends on the type 

12 of inspection the inspector was performing. 

13 There are numerous inspections. If he is just 

14 doing an - - what is known as ramp inspection, 

15 he is just looking at the aircraft itself. 

16 There are other records, and I 

17 will come in and see strictly for records 

18 reviews, they would not. If they are looking 

19 for the records in here for programs, yes, 

2 0 they are going to ask who is performing the 

21 task. 

22 Q Okay . Now, my logboo k was 

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9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

reviewed every two months, because we are so 

convenient, it is right across from the 

Allentown FSDO, right across the street. 

Now, at any point in time would it 

occur to this maintenance inspector, to 

consider whether or not this individual who 

was performing service on the aircraft, was on 

a drug and alcohol program or which one he was 

on? 

A That is not the purview in all the 

flight standards for an airworthiness 

inspector. 

Q I see. Now, is it standard - - I 

do remember back when Mr. Baker did start 

performing maintenance, and the only 

requirement that was requested of Mr. Henenger 

was an A&P license and evidence of a drug 

program 

Is that a standard practice by the 

inspector, by the maintenance inspector? 

MR. RALEY: Objection, assuming 

facts not in evidence. 

(202} 234-4433 

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341 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Sustained. 

THE WITNESS: I don't know --

JUDGE GOODWIN: It has been 

sustained. 

5 THE WITNESS: Okay. 

6 DR. SELIG: Can I rephrase that 

7 statement, Your Honor? That question? 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Try. 

BY DR. SELIG: 

10 Q Does a maintenance inspector ever 

11 request certain drug information, or 

12 credential information, to be in the record? 

13 A They will ask, and all, if there 

14 is an approved program. 

15 Q That is the extent of it? 

16 A That is the extent of it. 

17 Q I see. Would there ever be a time 

18 when a maintenance inspector would question or 

19 make someone aware, either the operations 

20 inspection person, or some other personnel, at 

21 the FSDO to enquire about this kind of thing? 

22 MR. RALEY: Objection, Your Honor, 

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9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

asked and answered. He already addressed --

JUDGE GOODWIN: He can answer the 

quest ion, overruled. 

THE WITNESS: The drug enforcement 

is not a flight standards issue. 

BY DR. SELIG: 

Q If does not fly an aircraft, after 

a certain service was done, is that --do you 

look at that as what is referred to as a 

serious safety issue? 

In other words, service was done -

JUDGE GOODWIN: Doctor, you have 

asked a question, now allow the witness to 

answer it. 

THE WITNESS: Without knowing 

precisely what services were performed no, I 

would not, I would not offer an opinion. 

BY DR. SELIG: 

Q Well, let's say the mechanic did a 

rotor balance, tracking balance. And at that 

point in time he was not on my specific drug 

(202) 234-4433 

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343 

1 and alcohol program, but he was on another 

2 company's drug and alcohol program. 

3 So that track and balance was 

4 performed. However, the aircraft was never 

5 flown part 135, during that time where that 

6 track and balance was repeated, when he was on 

7 my speci f ic drug and alcohol program. 

8 The question being, would that be 

9 considered a serious safety issue? 

10 MR. RALEY: Objection, Your Honor, 

11 it has been asked and answered and it is 

12 outside the scope of the testimony of the 

13 witness, here. 

14 JUDGE GOODWIN: I will allow the 

15 question, if he can answer it. 

16 THE WITNESS: The balance 

17 tracking, the blades and all of the 

18 helicopter, is safety critical, not 

19 necessarily, you know, but you are getting 

20 into qualifications of personnel, and I'm not 

21 sure of exactly what you are looking for. 

2 2 Or other than, like I said, for 

(202) 234-4433 

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COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

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344 

1 safety critical for an individual, regardless 

2 of who they are. 

3 BY DR. SELIG: 

4 Q Well, I'm just going by the 

5 violation of serious safety issues involved. 

6 That is phrasing that your maintenance 

7 protocol, for issuing of a violation. 

8 My question is, so that has to be 

9 a serious safety issue. Now, my question is, 

10 do you believe that if a track and balance was 

11 done, but was repeated -- I'm sorry, it was 

12 done with Mr. Baker not being on my specific 

13 drug and alcohol program, the aircraft was not 

14 flown, at all, during that time. 

15 And then he repeated it, at 

16 another point in time, when he was on proper 

17 drug and alcohol program. Is that -- would 

18 you consider that a serious safety issue 

19 involved? 

20 MR. RALEY: Objection, Your Honor, 

21 assuming facts not in evidence. 

22 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sustained. That 

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345 

is the Court's -- that enters the area of the 

Court's decision. 

3 DR. SELIG: Yes, sir. I have no 

4 further questions. 

5 JUDGE GOODWIN: Any redirect? 

6 MR. RALEY: No, Your Honor. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Sir, you can step 

down, and I ask that you not discuss your 

9 testimony prior to the conclusion of this 

10 hearing. 

11 Any other matters of evidence or 

12 testimony? 

13 MR. RALEY: Your Honor, just a 

14 little bit of cleanup. I would note that 

15 Respondent' s exhibits have not been moved into 

16 evidence. 

17 JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, that is up 

18 to the Respondent. 

19 DR. SELIG: I have R-1 is the 

20 Order 8100. 

21 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. 

DR. SELIG: Should I giv e you 

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346 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

these? 

JUDGE GOODWIN: I already have a 

set of these. I have a set of these, yes. 

DR. SELIG: Okay, then I motion to 

enter these into evidence. 

JUDGE GOODV^IN: Counsel, do you 

have any objection? 

MR. RALEY: Several, Your Honor. 

We can start with R-3 . I object to this 

receipt of an anti-drug program policy 

received as not relevant. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Objection 

overruled. 

MR. RALEY: R-4, Your Honor, I 

object to this document as not relevant, dates 

of employment period, and dates of the 

violations. And I believe that - -

JUDGE GOODWIN: What was the date 

of the violation? 

MR. RALEY: In 2008. I believe 

Dr. Selig hasn't claimed, at any time, that 

Mr. Baker was under ERA, the drug program at 

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347 

the time of the violations, so this has no 

bearing. 

3 JUDGE GOODWIN: Respondent's 1, 

4 for identification, is received into evidence 

5 as Respondent's 1. 

6 (The document referred to, having 

7 been previously marked for 

identification as Respondent 

9 Exhibit R-1 was admitted in 

10 evidence.) 

11 JUDGE GOODWIN: Respondent's 2, 

12 for identification, is received into evidence 

13 as Respondent's 2. 

14 (The document referred to, having 

15 been previously marked for 

16 identification as Respondent 

17 Exhibit R-2 was admitted in 

18 evidence.) 

19 JUDGE GOODWIN: Respondent's 3, 

20 for identification, is received into evidence 

21 as Respondent's 3. 

22 (The document referred to, having 

NEAL R. GROSS 

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348 

been previously marked for 

identification as Respondent 

3 Exhibit No. R-3 was admitted in 

4 evidence.) 

5 JUDGE GOODWIN: The objection as 

6 to Respondent's 4 is sustained. The exhibit 

7 is outside the scope of the premise of the 

case, so the objection is sustained. 

9 Any others, counsel? 

10 MR. RALEY: R-7, Your Honor. 

11 JUDGE GOODWIN: Respondent's 5 for 

12 identification is received into evidence as 

13 Respondent' s 5 . 

14 (The document referred to, having 

15 been previously marked for 

16 identification as Respondent 

17 Exhibit No. R- 5 was admitted in 

18 evidence.) 

19 DR. SELIG: If I may please 

2 0 comment? 

21 JUDGE GOODWIN: No. Respondent's 

22 6, for identification, is received into 

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9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

0.0 

evidence as Respondent's 6. 

(The document referred to, having 

been previously marked for 

identification as Respondent 

Exhibit No. R-6 was admitted in 

evidence.) 

JUDGE GOODWIN: What is your 

objection to Respondent's 7? 

MR. RALEY: Respondent's 7, Your 

Honor, is not relevant. I mean, request for 

a name change, with the Pennsylvania 

Department of State, has no bearing on the 

certificate status of Respondent's operation. 

DR. SEhlG: May I rebutt. Your 

Honor? 

JUDGE GOODWIN r No. Your 

objection is noted. I'm going to allow it, but 

it is going to go to weight. 

MR. RALEY: Yes, Your Honor. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: The objection is 

overruled. There was testimony, or there was 

argument -- I will be frank about this, Dr. 

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350 

Selig, I'm not sure what relevance, if any, it 

has. But I will allow its admission. 

3 

4 

S 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

DR. SELIG: If I may please the 

Court? 

JUDGE GOODWIN: No. So 

Respondent's 7 is admitted over objection. 

(The document referred to, having 

been previously marked for 

identification as Respondent 

Exhibit No. 7 was admitted in 

evidence.) 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Respondent's 6 was 

admitted into evidence. Do you have any 

obj ection to 7, which is the CFR? 

MR. RALEY: Seven is the change of 

name . 

JUDGE GOODWIN: You are right. 

What I meant was, do you have any objection to 

Respondent's 8, which is -- I don't know what 

it is, but it appears to capture the CFR. 

Any objection to 8 or 9? 

MR. RALEY: Nine, Your Honor. 

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351 

Respondent's 9 has not been properly 

authenticated. This document does not contain 

3 a date, it doesn' f contain any sort of 

4 heading, indicating what it is, or where this 

5 comes from, not even what type of document 

this is. It is just two photocopied pages. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Respondent's 8, 

8 for identification, is received into evidence 

9 as Respondent's 8. 

10 {The document referred to, having 

11 been previously marked for 

12 identification as Respondent 

13 Exhibit No. 8 was admitted in 

14 evidence.) 

15 JUDGE GOODWIN: Respondent's 9, 

1 6 th e objection is sustained as no 

17 authentication, no foundation. Any other 

18 matters before the Court? 

19 MR. RALEY: No, Your Honor. 

2 0 JUDGE GOODWIN: What we are going 

21 to do with respect to closing argument, is as 

22 I indicated at the beginning of the trial. 

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1 when the transcript is - - when you receive the 

2 transcript, Mr. Raley, 1 want you to notify 

3 Dr. Selig that you have the transcript. 

4 And at that point see if the two 

5 of you can agree on the parameters of a 

6 briefing schedule. The Court's suggestion 

7 would be that some time on or about two weeks 

S after both parties havE the transcript, the 

9 Agency's brief would be due. 

10 Two weeks thereafter, the 

11 Respondent's brief would be due. And then the 

12 FAA, pursuant to rules, will be allowed a 

13 rebuttal brief, which will be due one week 

14 after the Respondent's brief. 

15 If you can agree on the parameters 

16 of that, let me know. If not the Court will 

17 issue an order setting forth. 

18 Ifeither one of you run into 

19 scheduling conflicts, if you will communicate 

2 0 with each other, if you could reach an 

21 agreement, Mr. Raley, I would ask you to 

22 prepare the order and send it to the Court for 

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1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

a signature. 

If you can't agree, you are to 

communicate with Mr. Libowitz. You can do it 

informally, in writing by email, ccc to the 

other party. And the Court will -- the Court, 

at that point, will look at the request for 

postponement, and decide whether it will be 

necessary to receive further comment and/or 

just go with the amended briefing schedu*le. 

MR. RALEY: Yes, Your Honor. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Any other matters 

before the Court? 

MR. RALEY: No, Your Honor. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: We are off the 

record, that concludes the hearing. 

(Whereupon, at 10:59 a.m., the 

above-entitled matter was concluded.) 

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Nea l R. Gros s & Co. , Inc . 

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position 327:1,2 

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witnesses 265:2 

324:3,12 

words 342:11 

work 267:11 

273:16 287:10 

300:5,6 308:20 

310:6 

working 339:9 

works 308:12,21 

worthiness 326:18 

wouldn't 270:4 

287:9 298:12.13 

308:1 322:11.17 

writes 273; 16 

275:19 

writing 305:22 

326:20 353:4 

written 286:17 

wrote 301:7 

X 

X 263:5,9 

Y 

year 267:22 294:21 

316:22.22 317:1 

318:5 

years278:13 290:5 

" 330:16 

yesterday 293:1 1 

293:15"300:15 

324:6.8 

0 

01 327:3.4.6 

02-04 317:17 

020 331:9 

1 

1 

I 347:3,5 

1-18 335:21 

10:07 325 

10:20 325 

10:25 325 

10:28 325 

10:59 353 

1,12 

s 

8 

13 

16 

101263:20 

1040 322:6 

11 292:11 317:10 

11th 279:1,3318:4 

323:7 

11-29 334:5 

119 328:8 329:9.9 

334:12 

119.6-9 336:12 

119.69 302:20 

I2th 278:21 317:22 ; 

120320:18 328:22 j 

120.lAl 309:5 

121269:12 272:3.4 ! 

284:14 31^:21 

316:11 328:6.12 

329:6.19 i 

122 334:3 1 

135266:17 309:17 

309:18.21 316:9 

327:17,20.21 i 

328:1,2.10.12,16 i 

328:19 329:4,14 

330:1,6-7 331:8 

331:10 333:16 

343:5 

135.253 269:11 

284:12 

135.253(a) 284:11 

135.253(b) 285:16 

14316:8 320:17 

14CFR 316:10 

15325:6 332:12.14 

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 

202-234-4433 
Page 365 

333:10 

16335:10,12 

18104 264:7 

1840 290:4318:10 

323:9 

1841 317:7,12 

1843 299:10.17 

1990 327:9 

1994 327:9,10 

2318:22 347:11.13 

2000 289:20 

2002 267:22 278:19 

282:12317:15 

2004 278:3,6,12.18 

278:21 279:1 

286:15 289:22 

295:8.12.18 

300:16.17 303:1,9 

303:11 317:22 

318:4 333:17 

337:21 

2007 293:4 294:20 

295:3,9 

2008 306:14,15 

318:8 346:20 

2009 298:21 306:13 

2010333:18 

2011 331:20 334:6 

2012 263:11 335:22 

202 264:21 

202-267-5200 

320:5 

202-267-8442 

320:4 

202-267-9680 

319:9 

20591264:20 319:9 

320:4 

206 331:10 

21.53(b) 304:2 

22649319:14 

251 266:21 270:18 

255271:3 

267 265:4,11 

267-3357 264:21 

27th 263; 11 

28th 3 17:15 

2816264:6 

3 319:3 331:9 

333:16 347:19.2 

300 326:19 

315 265:4 

322 265:4 

326 265:6 

330 265:12 

332 265:12 

333 265:14 

335 265:6,14 

347265:15,16,17 

348 265:18 

349 265:19 

350 265:20 

351 265:22 

360-3953 264:8 

4 348:6 

40316 

43 327 

49316 

21 

5 

5348:11,13 

6 348:22 349: 

350:12 

6-10331:20 

610 264:8 

69 299:11,17 

317:13 

7299:11,17317:14 

349:8,9 350:6,10 

350:14 

74 306:17 

8 

8266:15,17350:19 

350:21 351:7,9,13 

800 264:18 319:8 

320:1,2 

8100.345:20 

8900 293:2,12 

9 266:19 284:22 

285:15 350:21 

351:1,15 

9:00 263:18 

9:03 266:2 

91 329:17 

92 306:17 

Neal R. Gross & Co. 

202-234-4433 

Inc 
366 

CERTIFICAT E 

This is to certify that the foregoing transcript 

In the matter of: M£.R Helicopters 

Before: US DOT 

Date: 01-27-12 

Place: Easton, PA 

was duly recorded and accurately transcribed under 

my direction; further, that said transcript is a 

true and accurate record of the proceedings. 

Court Reporter 

• 

(202) 2344433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE..N.W. 

WASHINGTON. D.C 20005-3701 www nealrgross com