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ASRAC COMMERCIAL UNITARY AIR CONDITIONERS WORKING GROUP

 MEETING

 JUNE 1, 2015

A P P E A R A N C E S

Ashley Armstrong

Ted Bantle

James Battaglia

Katie Coughlin

John Cymbalsky

Andrew deLaski

Paul Doppel

Chandara Gollapudi

Jill Hootman

Marshall Hunt

John Hurst

Chris Lau

Michael McCabe

Charlie McCrudden

Karen Meyers

Nick Mislak

Javier Ramirez

Greg Rosenquist

Harvey Sachs

Louis Starr

Eric Stas
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1 A P P E A R A N C E S (continued)

2 Rusty Tharp

3 Detlef Westphalen

4 Bob Whitwell

5 Dave Winningham

6 Xing Xu

7 Sami Zendah

8 Adam Darlington (via Webinar)

9 Armen Hower (via Webinar)

10 David Ransom (via Webinar)

11 Diane Jacobs (via Webinar)

12 Alcia Gallowish (via Webinar)

13 Eilen Connolly (via Webinar)

14 Jeff Worther (via Webinar)

15 Jim del Toro (via Webinar)

16 Linda Wilson (via Webinar)

17 Long Huang (via Webinar)

18 Mark Terzigni (via Webinar)

19 Michael Shows (via Webinar)

20 Michael Woodford (via Webinar)

21 Mike Ray (via Webinar)

22 Steven Maddox (via Webinar)

23

24

25 AUDIO TRANSCRIBED BY KYLIE S. SHEPHERD
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1 P R O C E E D I N G S

2 MR. BANTLE: Okay. Good morning, everybody.

3 Ted Bantle from FMCS. Thank you, everybody, for joining

4 us.

5 We are at quorum. We'll go through attendance

6 first, and then we can get right into the material here.

7 So again, to start us off, we'll do attendance from the

8 main table. We'll do the side tables, and then the back

9 of the room, and then Andrew can bring in -- list off the

10 individuals on the webinar.

11 So Ted Bantle with FMCS.

12 MR. RAMIREZ: Javier Ramirez with FMCS.

13 MR. deLASKI: Andrew deLaski, Appliance

14 Standard Awareness Project.

15 MR. McCRUDDEN: Charlie McCrudden, Air

16 Conditioning Contractors of America.

17 MR. MISLAK: Nick Mislak, AHRI.

18 MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel, Mitsubishi Electric.

19 MR. HURST: John Hurst with Lennox.

20 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp, Goodman.

21 MR. WINNINGHAM: Dave Winningham with Allied.

22 MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs, ACEEE.

23 MR. STARR: Louis Starr with NEEA.

24 MR. HUNT: Marshall Hunt, PG&E California IOUS.

25 MR. HILLBRAND: Alex Hillbrand, NRDC.
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1 MS. HOOTMAN: Jill Hootman, Trane.

2 MR. WHITWELL: Bob Whitwell, Carrier.

3 MR. ZENDAH: Sami Zendah, Emerson.

4 MR. STAS: Eric Stas, DOE General Counsel's

5 office.

6 MR. CYMBALSKY: John Cymbalsky, DOE.

7 MS. COUGHLIN: Katie Coughlin, Lawrence

8 Berkeley Lab.

9 MR. ROSENQUIST: Greg Rosenquist, LBNL.

10 MR. LAU: Christopher Lau, Navigant.

11 MR. BATTAGLIA: James Battaglia, Navigant.

12 MR. McCABE: Mike McCabe, consultant to Trane.

13 MR. XU: Xing Xu, Navigant.

14 MR. KROWKA: Alex Krowka, Energetics.

15 MALE SPEAKER: On the webinar, we have Adam

16 Darlington, Armen Hower, David Ransom, Diane Jacobs,

17 Alcia Gallowish, Eilen Connolly, Jeff Worther, Jim del

18 Toro, Linda Wilson, Long Huang, Mark Terzigni, Michael

19 Shows, Michael Woodford, Mike Ray, and Steven Maddox.

20 MR. BANTLE: Thank you. And for the working

21 group members that are on the webinar, we have un-muted

22 your phones, so you can participate whenever you feel is

23 necessary.

24 Okay. I will turn it over to John from DOE.

25 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay. Thank you, Ted. All
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1 right. Welcome, everyone, back to our little fun fest we

2 call the CWAF/CUAC negotiations. I think we're heading

3 down to the home stretch here. I think we're -- from my

4 point of view, we're closing in on the final sets of

5 numbers. I know there's been some questions raised over

6 the last few days about some of those spreadsheets and

7 such, so we're going to work through that.

8 Detlef Westphalen got stuck in Boston. His

9 flight was canceled due to the weather, but he's on the

10 o'clock flight and should be here maybe around

11 noontime. So what we're going to try to do is kind of

12 juggle the presentation a little bit to facilitate him

13 being here for some of the engineering issues that I

14 think it's important for him to be here to both answer

15 questions and to listen to the dialogue. So we're going

16 to do that.

17 In the meantime -- let me see -- let me take

18 you through a few introductory slides, kind of bring us

19 to where we are now, and then we'll turn it over to Greg

20 and the team to go through the furnaces portion fairly

21 quickly. I think at this point, we're pretty much got

22 that nailed down.

23 And then, again, we'll skip over some of the

24 engineering issues and go into some of the energy use

25 analysis and then circle back to the engineering later in
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1 the day.

2 Okay. With that, here's our schedule that

3 we've been working off of. You could see now we're at

4 June 1st. We will provide the analysis with the revised

5 shipments. I will say, we received the shipments just

6 this past Wednesday, so we -- we have not had a lot of

7 time to plow them through, but we did get them in the

8 models.

9 Not to steal Greg's thunder, but we do think

10 the levels themselves are problematic. They appear to be

11 a little bit out of line with a lot of the other data.

12 However, I think the main point of using these shipments

13 data were for the efficiency distribution, and not

14 necessarily the level, which I don't think makes as big a

15 difference as the efficiency breakdown. So Greg will

16 take us through that, Greg and Katie.

17 And other than that, I don't have much to say

18 at the outset. So I'll just turn it over to Greg to talk

19 a little bit about the furnaces, unless anyone else wants

20 to raise issues before we drive in at the outset.

21 MR. ROSENQUIST: Good morning, everyone. We're

22 going to start off, as we usually do, talking about

23 CWAFs.

24 You don't like that abbreviation or acronym?

25 (Laughter.)
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1 MS. HOOTMAN: I think of a hairdryer, and when

2 you're talking about gas furnaces, it would just be

3 singed.

4 (Laughter)

5 MR. ROSENQUIST: Okay. So we'll stick with

6 that image then, right?

7 MR. CYMBALSKY: But there's another meaning of

8 the word quaff which, you know, on a very hot summer day

9 in Washington after a long day of negotiating, we might

10 want to quaff a few IPAs.

11 MR. WHITWELL: Can we vote on that? Thumbs up?

12 (Laughter.)

13 MR. ROSENQUIST: So you know, based upon the

14 input we got from the last set of meetings, we did two

15 updates. We looked at the AHRI Directory that's being

16 used to come up with the distributions by model

17 availability, and apparently the count -- not apparently

18 -- the count for 81 percent AFUE was overestimated.

19 Apparently, there were models that were

20 repeated in the directory that should have been counted

21 as an independent unit. And so as a result, the market

22 share shifted dramatically to 80 percent, and so that's

23 what you see there. You see 76 percent of the market for

24 outdoor units at 80 percent, and 23 percent at 81.

25 It was reversed -- what you saw in our last
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1 meeting was those numbers essentially reversed. The

2 numbers for indoor and oil have not been affected.

3 The other change was updating the lifetime.

4 Again, if you remember, the analysis incorrectly

5 interpreted the lifetime information we had for

6 commercial unitary air conditioners and used -- I came up

7 with a 26-year average. It really should have been

8 closer to this value you see here, which is 22.6.

9 Using that short of life, of course, reduces

10 the amount of operating cost savings you have for the

11 unit. So these -- these are the results -- the updated

12 results, Life-cycle cost results.

13 You know, the -- the amount of consumers’

14 buildings with net costs for 82 percent is more or less

15 the same as what you saw last week. So a majority of

16 buildings or customers are incurring a net cost, although

17 the life-cycle cost savings is positive. 81 percent is

18 beneficial for an overwhelming amount of the customers

19 and buildings. Again, average life-cycle cost savings is

20 positive there as well. Oil furnaces have not changed

21 from what you saw last week, so those are the same

22 numbers.

23 And I'll move over to -- well, this was still

24 this trial standalone composition, this feeds into the

25 next slide which shows energy savings and NPV by these
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1 trial standard levels. And here are the savings.

2 Now, the savings more or less are the same as

3 what you saw last week, that is .6 to 7 quads in total

4 for both product classes, and that's due to the fact

5 that, you know, four -- Because you've shifted so much of

6 the market share down to 80 percent now, you're getting

7 more energy savings due to the 81 percent and higher

8 efficiency levels.

9 So you would have maybe thought that decreasing

10 the lifetime would have decreased your energy savings,

11 but again, the thing that offset that and drove it a

12 little bit higher is the fact that you have a lot of the

13 market share now at 80 percent. But, I would say more or

14 less, the type of numbers we've been seeing over the

15 weeks has -- hasn't changed dramatically.

16 Still in the -- sort of the -- the .1, .2 range

17 for TS level 1 and 2 and .5 to .7 range for TSLs 3 and 4

18 for full-fuel-cycle quads. And then the -- the large,

19 large amount of energy savings you get for TSL 5, which

20 is the condensing level.

21 So with that, I'll pause here to see if anyone

22 has any comments or questions.

23 MR. deLASKI: Greg, it's Andrew. I just -- I

24 have a question for the manufacturers in the room.

25 So does that adjustment to the models comport
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1 with your understanding of your own product offerings?

2 MR. WHITWELL: Bob Whitwell from Carrier.

3 Yeah, that, the 76-23 looks -- seems right to

4 me. Based on -- I looked at the AHRI Directory and came

5 up with some very similar numbers.

6 MR. deLASKI: Thanks.

7 MR. ROSENQUIST: So I'm going to move on then

8 if no one has any additional comments or questions.

9 So the next topic was supposed to be the

10 engineering analysis. You heard that Detlef has been

11 delayed. One of the primary things he was going to

12 discuss was the conversion curb installation issue and

13 where those occur at these different efficiency levels. I

14 would not do that justice in going over that material, so

15 I'll let him do that.

16 So I'm going to skip right over to the energy

17 use analysis. And when Detlef gets back, he'll -- I

18 think -- I think what we'll do is go over the energy use

19 analysis and the life-cycle cost analysis and hope by

20 that time Detlef returns so he can talk about the

21 conversion curb.

22 So energy use analysis updates. The only one

23 that -- that occurred for the energy use was to include

24 this conversion curb installation at all efficiency

25 levels.
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1 So what you had seen last week is that -- were

2 results based upon no conversion curbs installed up

3 through EL 2.5. And then at EL 3, $1,000 installation

4 cost was incurred for seven-and-a-half ton units, $1,750

5 for 15 tons, and $4,000 for 30 tons. Now what this

6 analysis includes is a fraction of the market at each

7 efficiency level incorporating a conversion curb.

8 So what that does is that it raises the

9 external static pressure by .2 inches, which also has the

10 effect of increasing the fan power as well. So all the

11 fan powers that you'll be seeing here in the next slide

12 are higher than what you had seen from last week,

13 specifically for ELs zero through 2.5.

14 And so this is the first one for

15 seven-and-a-half tons. I mean, again, I'm -- the

16 comparison point is still the NOPR here. So -- you know,

17 the baseline number of around 18,000. We have a dual

18 baseline if you all recall. It's gone up a little bit,

19 right? It hasn't gone up a tremendous amount, but it has

20 gone up.

21 And you -- you would see that occurring also

22 for all the efficiency levels up through 2.5. So this is

23 -- you know, it's not as reflected here in what you see

24 in terms of energy use, but you'll see how it affects

25 things in terms of cost later when I present the
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1 life-cycle cost results. These were -- again, these were

2 the numbers for seven-and-a-half tons. These are the

3 numbers for 15-tons.

4 MR. STARR: So this is Louis with NEEA.

5 How did it -- I was trying to -- I was flipping

6 back to the old slides from last week or whenever we were

7 here last just to see how these numbers changed. What

8 can you kind of just -- I know the NOPR, but I don't

9 really remember what last week's number was.

10 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yeah, I wish I had those.

11 MR. STARR: I mean, if you can just tell me in

12 general what the percentage change or --

13 MR. ROSENQUIST: Well, again, for ELs zero

14 through 2.5, it's on the order of, I believe 1 to 5

15 percent at the most. And you have to remember the

16 cooling side is also impacted because of the additional

17 heat load that has to be rejected by the system due to

18 the higher amount of energy going to the motor to drive

19 the fan. So both the fan and the cooling do go up.

20 MR. STARR: Yeah. I would guess -- I would say

21 -- what I was thinking it would be a little bit more

22 impact just because of the size of the pressure drop,

23 two-tenths, but I guess the fan energy is such a small

24 portion of it. Is that what you mean?

25 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yeah. Not to steal Detlef's
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1 thunder too much, but if I'm recalling correctly -- no,

2 I'm recalling correctly. Around 30 percent of the market

3 at the baseline level is getting a conversion curb, and

4 that, more or less, ramps up linearly through EL 3 until

5 around EL 3 where you get 70 percent.

6 So think of it maybe as going from 30 to 40 to

7 50 to 60, and then you hit 70. So the reason why it's

8 that level, I would say, is because it's only one-third

9 of the market that's being affected.

10 MR. STARR: Right. Okay.

11 MR. ROSENQUIST: Oh, you have the previous

12 ones?

13 Yeah, so for example, the total energy use at

14 the baseline for that first -- that first stage unit went

15 from 18,123 to 18,462.

16 MR. STARR: What page are you on in the old

17 slides?

18 MALE SPEAKER: 45 from the old slides.

19 (inaudible) some are up; some are down.

20 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yeah. Again, when you get to

21 EL 3 and further, you see a drop because not all of the

22 units are -- are getting a conversion curb.

23 Again, the last meeting's analysis had 100

24 percent of units at EL 3 and beyond getting a conversion

25 curb. Now it's on the order of 70 to 80 percent, and so
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1 that's why you'll see a drop in energy consumption for

2 those efficiency levels, relative to what you saw from

3 the previous meeting.

4 Here are the 15-ton numbers, and here are the

5 30 tons. Apologies for not replacing the last two

6 efficiency levels 4 and 5. Those IEER levels are 14.9

7 for EL 4, and, I believe, 15.6 for EL 5. Again,

8 apologies for not updating that.

9 MR. deLASKI: I'm sorry, what did you just fill

10 in?

11 MR. ROSENQUIST: The IEER values for ELs 4 and

12 5. So 15.5 for EL 4 should actually be 14.9 and 15.6 for

13 that to be determined.

14 MR. STARR: So this is Louis with NEEA.

15 I notice on the 15-ton, you did start to see a

16 substantial jump, right? Looking at the old number on

17 the base case, you're at 32, and on the base case, you're

18 at 39. So you're starting to see more of a jump there.

19 MR. deLASKI: Don't forget, there was a typo

20 last time.

21 MR. STARR: Oh, there was a typo. Oh, right.

22 MR. deLASKI: So that first row isn't correct.

23 MR. STARR: Oh, okay.

24 MR. ROSENQUIST: Thank you, Andrew.

25 (Laughter.)
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1 Yeah, again, I just want to repeat, all the

2 changes you're seeing now from last meeting are due to

3 this incorporation of the conversion curb for all

4 efficiency levels.

5 And again, for EL 3 and beyond, the energy use

6 numbers are going down because not all installations are

7 getting a conversion curb now. I know it's a lot of

8 numbers to mull over and digest, and I'm not going over

9 any additional inputs because we didn't make any -- any

10 other changes from last meeting.

11 So I don't know. I'll pause again. I mean,

12 you've all had a little opportunity to mull over the

13 numbers, but if you have any comments, questions, just

14 let me know.

15 I'll just plow ahead, then, in talking about

16 the life-cycle costs and payback period analysis. So

17 here, three -- there were three updates on this round. 

18 Again, talking about the conversion curbs.

19 Again, as I've said before, we're incorporating

20 conversion curbs at all efficiency levels now, and again,

21 roughly a third of units installed at the baseline level

22 are getting a conversion curb. And as I said before, it

23 more or less linearly increases to efficiency level 3,

24 where it's about 70 percent. So that cost that -- that

25 was reported last week of $1,000 for seven-and-a-half,
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1 $1,750 for 15, and $4,000 for 30, you could roughly --

2 roughly use those percentages I gave you to give you the

3 sort of weighted average installed cost for conversion

4 curbs that each efficiency level gets.

5 So in other words, if you have a $1,000

6 conversion curb for seven-and-a-half tons at the baseline

7 level, on a weighted average basis, because a third of

8 them are getting them, 30 percent -- 33 percent times

9 $1,000, that's $333 on a weighted average basis, that EL

10 0 gets for conversion curb.

11 The next big change was that we did receive the

12 data for AHRI, shipments data in addition to market share

13 data by efficiency level, as well as market share data

14 that specified the amount of shipments that are constant

15 air volume units, and staged air volume, variable air

16 volume units.

17 The efficiency distribution data are important

18 for determining, you know, what fractions of the market

19 are impacted by a particular increase in the efficiency

20 level. And the fraction of shipments at constant air

21 volume and staged air volume and variable air volume are

22 -- it's important because it dictates sort of the energy

23 consumption of that building.

24 So we were using -- I'll get into this a little

25 bit later -- but we were using CBECS 2003 to identify the
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1 fraction of buildings that were constant air volume or

2 variable air volume. Now we're actually using these data

3 to indicate that fraction. So I'll get into that a

4 little bit later here.

5 MR. deLASKI: Are you going to tell us the

6 differences?

7 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yes, yes. So as I said

8 earlier, the conversion curb was allocated to -- the

9 conversion curb cost was allocated to all efficiency

10 levels. Again, for the fraction of the market at each

11 efficiency level that needs to get a conversion curb

12 based upon the analysis, that will be presented by Detlef

13 later.

14 But here are the values. Here are the weighted

15 average values that you get for by efficiency level and

16 by equipment class. So as I said earlier, the baseline,

17 I said it was around $333; it's actually $308. And you

18 can see how that, more or less, linearly increases up to

19 efficiency level 3, and then starts -- seems to flatten

20 out a little bit as you increase efficiency.

21 So again, I want to -- I've been saying this

22 over and over, but I'll say it one more time: Last

23 meeting, we had $0 all the way up through 2.5, and $1,000

24 from 3 through 5. So now the life-cycle cost analysis is

25 now based upon these numbers.
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1 MR. HUNT: Greg, Marshall Hunt, PG&E. I

2 understand the shipment data are proprietary or protected

3 by -- it's protected by NDA, right?

4 MR. ROSENQUIST: Well, we didn't sign a

5 nondisclosure agreement, so I'll be presenting the

6 efficiency distributions --

7 MR. HUNT: Good.

8 MR. ROSENQUIST: -- in this package now. Maybe

9 this is -- (Laughter.) Probably too late to -- to

10 correct that, but --

11 MR. HUNT: Well, I'm pleased. I'm pleased if

12 it's available. It certainly is going to be aggregated

13 to the point where I don't think I could pick on anybody.

14 Oh, excellent. Thank you so much. Appreciate

15 that.

16 MR. WHITWELL: Sorry, I missed that. What was

17 the question?

18 MR. HUNT: I wanted access to the shipment

19 data, and I wasn't certain whether it was proprietary or

20 not. But it's aggregated like Nick's saying, so I'm very

21 pleased that we get that. Thank you.

22 MS. HOOTMAN: And it also doesn't show if

23 there's less than 1 or 2, less than 3.

24 MR. deLASKI: Less than 3?

25 MS. HOOTMAN: Doesn't show any of the data.
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1 MR. deLASKI: We're kind of jumping ahead to

2 the next topic, I think.

3 MR. HUNT: Thank you.

4 MR. STARR: So this is Louis Starr with NEEA.

5 So just from a bigger picture view, the curb

6 cost effect and the energy savings versus the curve cost.

7 It seems like the cost was more impactful in the life8 cycle than the energy savings part -- portion of it. In

9 other words, the effect of the energy savings is not that

10 -- doesn't seem to have much impact; however, the cost

11 does.

12 Does that intuitively kind of make sense to you

13 in kind of the overall kind of big picture analysis for

14 you? That the cost of the curb would be more impactful

15 than the energy cost?

16 MR. ROSENQUIST: Well, I think in all -- yeah

17 -- my answer's yes. (Laughter.) The numbers bear that

18 out, right?

19 MR. STARR: Yeah.

20 MR. ROSENQUIST: So, you know, you're talking

21 about hundreds of dollars here for -- for cost per unit,

22 as opposed to how -- what the conversion curb does to

23 raise external static pressure, and in turn, energy use

24 and what that translates to in terms of operating cost.

25 MR. STARR: Yeah. So we're talking 3- or $400
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1 -- or 3- or 400 BTUs, and the cost of a BTU is not that

2 much compared to the cost of the curbs.

3 So I guess it really comes down -- the cost of

4 energy is not that impactful, and it really gets

5 converted to dollars otherwise. So I guess intuitively

6 that's why the huge difference in actual real dollars

7 make a difference as opposed to the cost of energy which

8 is really cheap. That's why you don't see much of an

9 impact on life cycles because of that. Okay.

10 MR. ROSENQUIST: So this is the market share

11 data by efficiency level for each of the three equipment

12 classes. I guess some notes I'd like to point out that,

13 you know, if you recall, the engineering analysis was

14 conducted assuming that the baseline design, EL zero was

15 represented with a constant air volume unit.

16 The efficiency data indicated that there were

17 variable air volume units at the baseline level. So in

18 order to reconcile that discrepancy, this analysis

19 distributed that market share at the baseline level for

20 variable air volume units to efficiency level 1.

21 So in other words, there was 9.3 percent of the

22 market at the baseline level for seven-and-a-half tons

23 that was moved to efficiency level 1. 16.9 percent for

24 15 tons. And then 11.2 percent for 30 tons.

25 Again, the reason why is -- is due to the way
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1 the analysis was conducted. And, again, this is based

2 upon the assumption that only constant air volume units

3 were present -- are present at the baseline level.

4 So again, and we can -- we can talk about doing

5 something other than that. You know, I -- we could have

6 just kept the market share at the baseline level, but

7 we'd be -- we'd be representing that type of unit with a

8 constant air volume unit, which probably doesn't have the

9 same type of energy use when it comes to fan operation,

10 certainly, and also possibly compressor operation.

11 So again, this is a choice that we made. 

12 Again, I don't think it has a terrible impact on the

13 life-cycle cost results you'll see later, but I just

14 wanted to point that out.

15 MR. SACHS: Greg, this is Harvey. And I just

16 wanted to make sure that my assumption that the third

17 dash -- bullet VAC was just a transposition of CAV.

18 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yes.

19 MR. SACHS: Because I wasn't sure what that new

20 acronym meant.

21 MR. ROSENQUIST: I guess I was a little bit

22 dyslexic that day. I can't say the word.

23 (Laughter.)

24 MR. STARR: So this is Louis --

25 MR. ROSENQUIST: Late on Friday night.
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1 MR. STARR: So this is Louis with NEEA.

2 So -- so looking -- let's say this small CA use

3 AC. So the NOPR had 61 percent, so basically its

4 increased to 69.2. So for the next one, EL 1, we were at

5 39 percent. So now if you added 29.2 plus 23.3. Now, by

6 VAV, do you mean staged air volume or are you talking

7 about -- or the CAV building and VAV building, maybe help

8 me understand, is that a difference in the unit, or is

9 that the type of building? What's the distinction in the

10 last two columns?

11 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yeah, those -- those designate

12 what fraction of each efficiency level gets allocated to

13 that type of a building in the life-cycle cost analysis.

14 So perhaps I should have kept those slides on that showed

15 the mappings of equipment designs to building -- to

16 buildings.

17 But, again, when we're placing a piece of

18 equipment into a VAV building, it's mapped, according to

19 that efficiency distribution that you see in that last

20 column. So efficiency level 1 is a staged air volume

21 equipment design.

22 MR. STARR: Okay.

23 MR. ROSENQUIST: Right? But it is suitable for

24 going into a variable air volume building, and based upon

25 the efficiency distribution that we got from AHRI, we're
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1 saying that that efficiency level 1 unit gets put into

2 VAV buildings 23 percent of the time.

3 MR. STARR: So the VAV building, in determining

4 that's a VAV building --

5 MR. ROSENQUIST: So in our last set of

6 meetings, as a reminder, we used 2003 CBECS to get that

7 breakdown. That was roughly a third of buildings were VAV

8 buildings. Now, this is getting to the last set of bullet

9 points on this slide. The AHRI data also indicated what

10 fraction of shipments were variable air volume or staged

11 air volume units versus constant air volume.

12 And so only 6 percent of seven-and-a-half ton

13 shipments were variable air volume or staged air volume

14 units according to the data again. And so again, that's

15 not -- it's hard to reconcile with the data that we had

16 from CBECS which said that, again, a third of buildings

17 were variable air volume buildings.

18 So as a result, we went with this data from

19 AHRI. We just adjusted -- adjusted our weighting and our

20 Life-cycle cost analysis for the building sample used for

21 seven-and-a-half tons so that only 6 percent of the time

22 would you pick a variable air volume building, because of

23 the fact that the shipments data indicate that only 6

24 percent of those shipments are variable air volume or

25 staged air volume units.
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1 MR. STARR: Yeah, just --

2 MR. ROSENQUIST: Now, again, what I want to say

3 about the 2003 CBECS data: Yes, it's good data. But

4 when it comes to perhaps giving you certainty at that

5 level of granularity, it's -- you know, there's always a

6 question there, right?

7 So especially when it comes to the type of

8 equipment being specified by CBECS, again, it doesn't say

9 "air-cooled rooftop units," as a type of equipment. It

10 says "packaged units." So that could also be a factor as

11 to why those fractions are larger than what's being

12 indicated by the AHRI data.

13 MR. STARR: Well, something to think about. So

14 when you looked in your CBECS data and you found a true

15 -- really a VAV building, your ability to actually take a

16 staged air volume and stick it into a VAV system is

17 probably not really doable. But I -- just something to

18 think about.

19 I mean, you can't -- let's say you had

20 something -- a building with a VAV unit with staged -- or

21 not staged air, but you had VAV boxes downstream of it.

22 The ability to come in and drop a staged air volume in

23 that application wouldn't work with the system. You

24 would actually need to replace it with -- if you have an

25 existing VAV system, you'd need one that is not a staged
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1 air volume, but actually goes from 25 percent to 100

2 percent of the volume in order for the system to work

3 properly.

4 So I think I would suggest looking at -- see if

5 that -- I don't know if -- I just saw it right now, so I

6 don't really know if it's going to change your analysis,

7 but you really can't just replace a -- a system. If the

8 system is really a VAV system, you will not be able to

9 replace it with a staged air volume system. So something

10 to think about.

11 MR. ROSENQUIST: I mean, we can do another

12 sensitivity where we use the CBECS data as our driver for

13 the CAV and VAV buildings and just do this that way

14 again.

15 MR. STARR: You know, I don't know that that's

16 necessary. I -- since you've spent so much time with the

17 data, I would just think about what I've said and think

18 about whether it affects it. And if it doesn't, use your

19 best judgment on it.

20 MR. WHITWELL: Bob Whitwell from Carrier.

21 Louis, I think, based on the other analysis

22 that Greg has done, it's showed that the VAV units use

23 more energy than the SAV. So I think it would show more

24 energy usage if you were to do that analysis. So I mean

25 --
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1 MR. STARR: Yeah. In reality, I haven't even

2 thought about how that affects it, but just in terms of

3 it doesn't -- you know, just logically doesn't really

4 drive so well. But probably, I think it ultimately may

5 not effect the analysis, and that's what we really --

6 what we care about.

7 MR. deLASKI: Greg, I'm not quite sure I'm

8 understanding the numbers on the chart on the slides.

9 Maybe I missed something.

10 So if you look at line 1 there on that table,

11 EL 0, the IEER 11.4, 51 percent in the NOPR is the market

12 share. Is that changing?

13 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yeah, I mean, that's just a

14 comparison point, right? I provided the NOPR numbers so

15 --

16 MR. deLASKI: Okay. So the column -- column 2

17 -- the CAV and the VAV columns show us the new market

18 shares --

19 MR. ROSENQUIST: Correct.

20 MR. deLASKI: -- based on the AHRI data --

21 MR. ROSENQUIST: Correct.

22 MR. deLASKI: -- submitted to you.

23 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yes.

24 MR. deLASKI: And you just split it up between

25 those two columns?
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1 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yes.

2 MR. deLASKI: All right. Thank you.

3 MR. ROSENQUIST: You know, it's just -- things

4 to note in general is that, you know, it doesn't seem

5 like the NOPR was all that far off from at least the

6 efficiency distributions we're using for the constant air

7 volume buildings.

8 What is very different, I would say, is -- are

9 the distributions that we're now using for variable air

10 volume buildings. There's more market share at the

11 higher efficiency levels based upon the AHRI data.

12 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. I think the other thing

13 you see is, there are -- even on the CAV buildings, there

14 are more units at the higher EL levels today, right?

15 And the other interesting thing -- and I know

16 you don't see it here -- but once you get the -- once the

17 data is distributed, you'll see it that we have two sets

18 of data: One from 2011, and one from 2014. And --

19 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yeah, I'm sorry to interrupt

20 you, but this is only 2014.

21 MR. WHITWELL: Right, no, I understand. Right.

22 MR. ROSENQUIST: Okay.

23 MR. WHITWELL: But 2010 -- 2010 ASHRAE 90.1

24 required and California Title 24 required the staged air

25 volume in order to comply with those building codes.
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1 So if you look at 2011 versus 2014, the

2 percentage of units that have the staged air volume in

3 VAV has grown significantly, and that should continue to

4 be the trend as we go forward.

5 So -- so by the time we get to the point where

6 the next energy efficiency standard goes into effect,

7 this will -- there will even be a further shift to more

8 VAV or SAV volume, which is likely -- which will help to

9 reduce energy efficiency or energy usage from where --

10 from the baseline that we're showing here. So it's --

11 the market is moving, and it continues to move towards

12 staged air volume because of what's happening within

13 building codes.

14 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yeah, I mean, those numbers of

15 6 percent, 19.2 percent, and 34.6 percent for

16 seven-and-a-half, 15, and 30... again, those reflect

17 2014.

18 The 2011 numbers of, I believe I'm recalling

19 correctly, are zero percent, zero percent, and around, I

20 think, 17 or 15 percent for 30 tons in 2011.

21 So yeah, I mean, looking at that data, there's

22 definitely been a move to variable air volume units,

23 staged air volume, variable air volume units.

24 MR. WINNINGHAM: This is Dave with Allied.

25 So in your projection, though, you're using
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1 just 2014 raw numbers, not --

2 MR. ROSENQUIST: For the -- certainly for the

3 Life-cycle cost analysis. Now, we might as well discuss

4 that now for the shipments analysis.

5 Again, we -- you know, we do have a, what we

6 call a consumer choice model for efficiency. That's what

7 we used in the NOPR, and we had a very modest growth in

8 efficiency over time due to the limited -- due to the

9 very limited data that we had.

10 Now, because we got the data from AHRI on

11 Wednesday, we really didn't have an opportunity to

12 develop that portion of our shipments model, and so the

13 forecast efficiency is still relatively static over time.

14 And that affects, of course, what you see in terms of

15 national energy savings in that present value.

16 So one of the tasks that we'll have maybe after

17 this meeting is to try to do something to incorporate

18 that data, but I'll let Katie speak to that further.

19 MS. COUGHLIN: This is Katie, Lawrence Berkeley

20 Lab.

21 I just -- it's true that the efficiency, in

22 terms of the market share of the higher ELs, doesn't

23 change drastically in the current model because we don't

24 show a lot of -- consumers are cost-sensitive; however, I

25 just wanted to remind everybody that there is this energy
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1 -- there's a scaling factor for the energy use that

2 represents the change in the building stocks.

3 So that does account for kind of a general

4 higher penetration for variable air volume and various

5 other things.

6 MR. STARR: So this is Louis.

7 Just to make sure, on the VAV side, that's

8 basically the AHRI data based upon basically the

9 efficiency levels, the IEER levels? Is that how that's

10 distributed across there?

11 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yeah, they were actually

12 provided in bins, right?

13 MR. STARR: Bins. Oh, okay. So that's those

14 bins we talked about a long time ago. Okay. So that's

15 how they split up the shares of that --

16 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yeah, and that's another thing

17 I should note, actually. So the bins, for example, for

18 seven-and-a-half ton were 11.4 to 12.9. 12.9 -- actually

19 they were -- actually I should be a little bit more

20 detailed about that.

21 They were -- there were two sets of bins, one

22 for units with electric or no heat, and one for units

23 with other heat, which is generally gas heat. And for

24 rooftop air conditioning units, that's the -- that's

25 where most of the shipments are. They're in the --
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1 they're with the other heat category, which is presumably

2 gas, right.

3 And so that actual efficiency bin is, I

4 believe, rather than 11.4 to 12.9; it's, I believe, 11.2

5 to 12.7. So -- but, we're stuck with these IEER

6 efficiency levels just to maintain consistency with what

7 was done with the NOPR where the approach there was -- at

8 least from the engineering perspective -- was an electric

9 or no heat sort of unit.

10 But yes, so what we had to do when we got up to

11 an efficiency bin of -- there was an efficiency bin of

12 14.0 to 14.8, let's say. That bin we had to divide up

13 amongst two efficiency levels: 14.0 and 14.5. So we

14 just divided that in half.

15 MR. STARR: Wasn't -- so I think Dick Lord, and

16 I think Joanna, or maybe someone else discussed these

17 bins. And I -- so those -- so you're saying 12.9 to 11.4

18 is the first bin for --

19 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yes.

20 MR. STARR: -- 23.3?

21 I was thinking for some reason we went to the

22 midpoints between those numbers. But, no. Okay.

23 MR. ROSENQUIST: And, you know, because I --

24 because I took the perspective that anything in that bin

25 wouldn't meet the efficiency level. Like efficiency
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1 level 1, I assigned that full percentage, for example, to

2 the baseline level, right.

3 Because there's no -- there's no further

4 information to say how that product is distributed within

5 that bin. So it could very well be clustered at the low

6 end; it could be just a normal distribution; it could be

7 clustered at the high end. Who knows, right?

8 MR. STARR: Okay.

9 MR. ROSENQUIST: But, again, I took the

10 perspective that, you know, a unit in that bin cannot --

11 does not meet the efficiency -- the prior -- the

12 efficiency level above it. So I assigned it completely

13 to the lower efficiency level.

14 MR. STARR: So the 12.9 has -- there's 23

15 percent of the market that's somewhere between 11.41 and

16 12.9?

17 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yeah. The 29.2 percent, for

18 example --

19 MR. STARR: Okay.

20 MR. ROSENQUIST: -- it is in the bin of 12.9 to

21 14.0. But it's been --

22 MR. STARR: Oh, okay.

23 MR. ROSENQUIST: -- all assigned. All that's

24 been assigned to 12.9 in this analysis.

25 MR. STARR: Okay. Got it.
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1 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, so there's some

2 conservatism in there.

3 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yeah.

4 MR. WHITWELL: And Louis, I mean, we didn't go

5 to the midpoints because then I don't know what Greg

6 would have done with that. I mean, at least by going

7 with what was in the NOPR, he could -- he could assign it

8 somewhere.

9 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yeah, and you have to remember

10 the engineering, the energy use, is all based upon these

11 efficiency levels that you see here, right? The

12 engineering analysis, of course, drove its analysis to

13 these IEER levels.

14 And then the resulting details, you know, the

15 performance of that unit is very much dependent upon how

16 they drew up that design to meet that IEER level.

17 MS. HOOTMAN: So Greg, I just want to -- this

18 is Jill from Trane.

19 I just want to add that when you said about,

20 you know, the -- it's mostly gas in the gas heat in the

21 anything else. There's also, at 30 tons, product made

22 that has steam and hot water heat. So anything in that

23 20 through 63 tons --

24 MR. SHOWS: Hey, good morning, guys. Sorry I'm

25 late. I was in an interview. Happy Monday, gentlemen.
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1 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yeah, I'm sorry, would you mind

2 stating your name?

3 MS. HOOTMAN: Jill Hootman from Trane.

4 MR. CYMBALSKY: No, sorry. Online, the voice.

5 MR. ROSENQUIST: Michael Shows from -- from the

6 lab. You were probably talking to your staff it sounds

7 like, so you might want to mute your phone.

8 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay. Go ahead, Jill. Sorry.

9 MS. HOOTMAN: So anyway, there's a small

10 percentage. You're right, it's overwhelmingly gas, but I

11 just want to make sure people understand that there are

12 other options of heat -- steam and hot water -- in those

13 products.

14 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yeah, it's a good time to

15 bring up that for the -- I'll say it -- the CWAF

16 analysis. (Laughter.) That the data indicated on, like,

17 on average 80 percent of rooftop AC units were "other." 

18 In the "other" category, and then -- so that was used to

19 drive the amount of shipments, right, for that analysis

20 to come up with those national energy savings and MPV

21 numbers.

22 So -- I mean, to the extent that there's other

23 types of "other" in that category, then that -- we're

24 over-representing those shipments. So --

25 MS. HOOTMAN: Right, right. But, I mean, they
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1 have the same effect as far as fan, and fan distribution,

2 and stuff like that. So I don't think we need to call

3 them out. I just want to -- they're less than 1 -- maybe

4 in the 1 to 2 percent of those. So they're not -- it's

5 not huge. But those in the northeast really do want your

6 steam and hot water still.

7 MR. STARR: So I like talking about steam and

8 hot water. But one -- so the question on this -- so the

9 very large, so you're looking at 240,760, which is 20 to

10 63 tons or something. So pretty much when that -- when a

11 unit like that goes on a building, you are -- well, I

12 should ask this question.

13 I don't think you're in staged air volume, but

14 I think you are in the VAV system. What I'm surprised --

15 so VAV, basically, in other words, continues from VAV,

16 not staged air volume is at EL-3 and above. Is that

17 right? I should make -- I forgot the little chart with

18 the --

19 MR. ROSENQUIST: No, I'm trying to recall that.

20 MR. deLASKI: We should probably look at it.

21 MR. ROSENQUIST: I know that for 30 tons, it is

22 -- it's -- they are different equipment designs than for

23 seven-and-a-half and 15. I think when it's -- I think it

24 might be truly a --

25 MR. STARR: So there's some split --
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1 MR. ROSENQUIST: We should look --

2 MR. STARR: Yeah, we should.

3 MR. CYMBALSKY: -- during the break.

4 MR. STARR: Even without looking, just

5 intuitively, at some point you switch from staged air

6 volume to, you know, continuous VAV, and it happens at

7 some EL level. What is surprising is the level that that

8 switch is at. I mean, if you look at the percentage of

9 market of the VAV, it's not very much. And if you would

10 need, I would think, at least 2.5 and above, you're

11 definitely at a VAV system. And you're only seeing 19

12 plus 12, or you're at a third of the market of the

13 shipments, right? Because that's the shipments on the --

14 MS. HOOTMAN: So Louis, this is Jill from

15 Trane. What you have to understand is what happens here,

16 because you do have the 20 and 25 ton in here. There's a

17 big difference in 30 through 63 tons versus 20 and 25. 

18 20 and 25 overlaps with our light commercial product

19 lines. And so it has -- and it's a higher volume.

20 So it's really skewing things here if you were

21 to truly look at just 30 through 63, it would be way

22 higher, way higher VAV. So we're actually -- was kind of

23 surprised that they were as low as they were. We would

24 have thought they were higher.

25 MR. STARR: Yeah, I would have thought the
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1 same.

2 MS. HOOTMAN: And so that's really what's

3 happening because you have overlap of product lines that

4 are 20 and 25 tons that are light commercial that are

5 constant volume, and so those have such a high number.

6 That's what's skewing it and pulling it down.

7 MR. STARR: So you're basically having 20-ton

8 units that are probably going on large retail of some

9 sort. And so what it's saying is that we've got a bunch

10 of --

11 MS. HOOTMAN: Gymnasium (inaudible) whatever.

12 MR. STARR: Wouldn't -- don't those have to be

13 -- even a large 20-ton going on, you know, a large retail

14 space, doesn't that still have to be a VAV system, above

15 seven-and-a-half horsepower you need a --

16 MALE SPEAKER: Stage.

17 MR. STARR: -- stage. Can be staged? Okay.

18 MS. HOOTMAN: Can be staged. And you could

19 actually still use constant volume for one of the

20 features.

21 MR. STARR: Oh, okay. Yeah, I was thinking

22 that 90.1 was forcing you into a 50 percent -- at 50

23 percent flow, you have to do 30 percent of the power or

24 something. It basically forces you into getting you at a

25 staged air volume, but that must be -- they must still
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1 save it up for that.

2 MALE SPEAKER: (Inaudible.)

3 MR. STARR: Oh, so I get it. Got it.

4 MR. ROSENQUIST: Okay. I think -- I think I've

5 gone over this in enough detail. So now we will move on

6 to the results.

7 So is there any way I can just move it down?

8 There you go.

9 So the one thing for seven-and-a-half tons,

10 now, again, these -- these numbers, I guess, for

11 increased efficiency, our -- for three and

12 three-and-a-half, four and five, relative to the lower

13 efficiency levels are actually better. Because you --

14 your -- your -- you don't -- you're not -- you're

15 incurring a cost for the curb over them, right? But not

16 as great as you saw in the numbers from last -- from the

17 last meeting.

18 And again, in addition to that, since, again, a

19 large fraction of these units between 3 and efficiency

20 levels 3 and 5 are getting conversion curb, they are less

21 than what you saw last week.

22 And so they also -- their energy use is a

23 little bit different. So those two effects of, you know,

24 reducing an energy cost for operation of the unit and

25 reducing installed costs that make them relatively --
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1 look relatively better against the older -- against the

2 lower efficiency levels.

3 One thing that probably really screams out at

4 everybody if you look at that lower table is that the

5 average life-cycle costs savings for efficiency level 1

6 are negative. And this has to do almost entirely with

7 changing the fraction of constant air volume and variable

8 air volume buildings.

9 Again, and we had roughly one-third in the

10 prior set of results that were variable air volume

11 buildings; now we only have 6 percent. And if you look

12 at the characteristics of the baseline unit which has a

13 single-stage and a two-stage design at efficiency level

14 1, which has a constant air volume design and a staged

15 air volume/variable air volume design, the actual fan

16 energy consumption of the efficiency level 1 constant air

17 volume unit, which is now representing 94 percent of the

18 market for efficiency level 1, has higher energy

19 consumption than the baseline level.

20 And the -- also the condenser fan, actually, is

21 greater as well. Of course, the compressor power

22 decreases for efficiency level 1, that constant air

23 volume unit, relative to the baseline design.

24 But, again, since we've all seen throughout

25 these last set of -- these meetings is that there's an
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1 awful lot of fan energy use that's going on with these

2 units when they're put in these buildings. And that has

3 the effect of not entirely, of course -- it still reduces

4 energy use, it just doesn't reduce it all that much to

5 the point where you actually come up with negative LCC

6 savings for that level.

7 You know, this is -- I would say this is an

8 outcome of two things. One: That we have now virtually

9 all of the buildings being represented by constant air

10 volume buildings, 94 percent. And two: The type of

11 designs -- the type of design that was developed for the

12 baseline units and efficiency level 1.

13 MR. STARR: So 2, I mean, you're also in the EL

14 1. You're introducing additional costs to the curb and

15 more energy use. So you're --

16 MR. ROSENQUIST: Right.

17 MR. STARR: -- even though you're getting

18 slightly higher efficiency, you're losing it with

19 overcoming the curb. And then you're also adding $400 to

20 $500 on --

21 MR. ROSENQUIST: Right.

22 MR. STARR: -- because of that. So you're

23 actually moving backwards.

24 One thing I would also note, that we didn't do

25 the analysis, but it's something else to consider. A lot
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1 of times when you convert one unit to another, you're

2 actually changing it from Manufacturer A to B. So you

3 actually, a lot of times, incur even a higher pressure

4 drop.

5 So counter-intuitively, if you go from your --

6 if you've got this nice Carrier on the roof and you want

7 to switch over to another unit that doesn't have the

8 exact same footprint, then a lot of times you have this

9 conversion curb that even jumps you higher. And so a lot

10 of times it makes sense to stay with the same

11 manufacturer so you don't have a huge pressure drop

12 increase.

13 So a lot of owners look at the price, not

14 realizing they're actually going to incur a higher cost

15 by, you know, switching up to maybe a more-efficient

16 unit. But they lose it all because they have to do this

17 landscape to portrait curb and a whole bunch of other

18 things that are not so good.

19 MR. ROSENQUIST: I think, finally the last

20 thing I want to point out is, from the last set of

21 meetings, the maximum LCC savings point -- maximum

22 average LCC savings point was efficiency level 2.5, and

23 now its been moved to EL 3, if you disregard EL 5.

24 So that's, in some sense, the effect of these

25 -- these changes on the conversion curb and with the
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1 efficiency distributions and with a fraction of CAV and

2 VAV buildings, it's the resulting effect of -- again, if

3 you disregarded the EL 5, is that you're moving the

4 maximum LCC savings point from two-and-a-half to 3.

5 MR. STARR: I've got one last question. On

6 this chart on 43, what's the sum on each one of the

7 small, large, and very large? What's the proportion of

8 CAV and VAV for each one of the classes?

9 MR. ROSENQUIST: For each of the classes?

10 MR. STARR: Yeah. In other words, for the

11 seven-and-a-half ton, there's a certain portion of the

12 market that is the CAV, and a certain portion of the

13 market is VAV. And for each one of those, the small,

14 large, and very large, I was wondering what those numbers

15 are.

16 MR. ROSENQUIST: You see them right here on

17 this -- right here. Six percent, then it goes up to 19.2

18 percent, and then 34.6 percent.

19 MR. STARR: So 6 percent --

20 MR. ROSENQUIST: And, again, for the -- for the

21 analysis that you were presented with at the last

22 meeting, it was a third -- roughly a third across the

23 board.

24 MR. STARR: Okay.

25 MR. ROSENQUIST: So I'm going to move on to 15
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1 tons. I would say, in general, the move here to the

2 conversion curb revisions -- I mean, we had -- we had

3 fairly attractive results last time. Now they're, I

4 would say, a little bit more attractive in terms of --

5 economically attractive, I should say.

6 If I'm moving straight down to the average LCC

7 savings and the percent of consumers with that cost, the

8 average LCC savings have gone up, but percent of

9 consumers within that cost have gone down relative to

10 what you saw at the last meeting.

11 Again, you're at a point now where your maximum

12 LCC savings point is efficiency level 4, whereas before,

13 it was efficiency level 3 from the meetings from last

14 week.

15 MR. CYMBALSKY: So this is John from DOE. I'm

16 going to go back to our NOPR public meeting where we --

17 we looked at some, I guess I'll call it marketing

18 material for better -- lack of a better term from a

19 couple of the manufacturers that showed paybacks of their

20 -- most their -- the rooftop-challenge type units, and

21 they showed a payback of under three years.

22 So it looks like our 15-ton revised analysis

23 now fits with the data that the manufacturers actually

24 posted on their website. So I'm starting to feel more

25 comfortable with the numbers.
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1 MR. STARR: So this is Louis. One question: I

2 remember part of this from last week incorporating the --

3 something about this -- to incorporate the curb cost, you

4 weren't going to be able to really -- it was going to

5 effect your -- the way you were doing it -- I think Katie

6 was going to do it. You weren't going to be able to

7 accurately carry that through in the percent of net --

8 MR. ROSENQUIST: Thank you, Louis. Thank you.

9 Yeah, so the averages are correct, but the

10 percent of winners and losers, because of the way we had

11 to do the analysis, are not reflective of the analysis

12 where X percent of the market has to get a curb and X

13 percent doesn't. Because we're, again, conveying an

14 average cost, an average energy use impact, into the

15 life-cycle cost analysis. So thank you for that

16 reminder.

17 MR. STARR: But, I mean, in this case, the

18 percents are so low. It's not like we're talking about

19 30, 40, 50 percent, right? We're talking less than 10,

20 so it doesn't really matter.

21 MR. ROSENQUIST: And on now, 30 tons, unless

22 there was a question of 15?

23 Again, the -- the attractiveness of ELs 4 and 5

24 have gone -- gone significantly up relative to the

25 numbers you saw from last week. We actually didn't have
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1 -- I'm sorry. I apologize, we didn't even present ELs 4

2 and 5 last week. So we only went through EL 3.

3 MALE SPEAKER: It still holds, though.

4 MR. ROSENQUIST: Little bit of a brain lock

5 there. I guess I was just surprised to see how

6 attractive ELs 4 and 5 were, that's all. So I will pause

7 here because this is a good break point here to stop and,

8 I guess, take any comments or questions on these results.

9 Again, there's a lot to digest here. I would

10 just have to say, in general, that, you know,

11 seven-and-a-half tons were marginally -- well, not

12 marginally, they were impacted by this change, but just

13 not as significantly, I would say, as what you've seen

14 here in 15 and 30.

15 I wish Detlef were here so I could go over the

16 conversion curb stuff.

17 MR. SACHS: I wonder --

18 MALE SPEAKER: The flight arrives at 10:42?

19 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yeah, it arrives at 10:42.

20 MALE SPEAKER: We can take a little break and

21 -- well (inaudible).

22 MR. SACHS: That's -- that's what I was going

23 to suggest. There does seem to be a great deal to

24 digest, and we're at a transition point.

25 MR. ROSENQUIST: I mean, we -- I mean, if he's
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1 going to land at 10:40, though, he's probably not going

2 to get here until 1:00. Optimistically, quarter to

3 12:00.

4 MALE SPEAKER: Oh, quicker than that.

5 MR. ROSENQUIST: Quicker than that?

6 MR. CYMBALSKY: I authorized the use of Uber so

7 --

8 (Laughter.)

9 MR. ROSENQUIST: That assumes he knows how to

10 use it, though.

11 (Laughter.)

12 MR. BANTLE: Okay. I have 10:37 on my

13 computer. Let's take 15, 20 minutes, look through this

14 data, and we'll come back with questions for Greg. Thank

15 you.

16 So come back around 10:50? 10:50 we'll just

17 say to make it even? 11:00? Okay. We'll give it to

18 11:00 o'clock. Perfect. Thank you.

19 (Recess taken.)

20 MR. BANTLE: So it looks like we have almost

21 everyone back, so we will get started. We'll turn it --

22 any questions, comments on the information that was

23 presented by Greg. Any questions or comments?

24 MR. SACHS: Our reading now is from which

25 slides?
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1 MR. BANTLE: I think we're just looking for any

2 questions on Greg's stuff before we hand it over to

3 Navigant.

4 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp from Goodman. I'll

5 start. One of the things that I, as we look at the

6 analysis, specifically slides 44 to 46, SMACNA indicated

7 in the previous discussion that installed cost, per their

8 survey, was in the range of $2,500 per ton. The lower

9 range was about $2,000 per ton. And the numbers in these

10 don't comport with what SMACNA came up with.

11 So I think it would be good for us to consider

12 the differences and where those differences might lie at

13 least to find out where those -- because it's about half

14 --

15 MR. CYMBALSKY: So this is John from DOE. So

16 you're saying, just scale all the numbers, though not

17 necessarily between TSLs.

18 So I think, again, going back to my comment,

19 which I was referencing your company and another

20 company's payback periods for the rooftop challenge

21 units, and it seems like we got the payback period now.

22 We were multiples of what you guys purported on

23 your website. So the fact that the payback periods now

24 match the manufacturers versus the DOE analysis, I feel

25 like, at least the differential between the EL levels
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1 have come into line with what -- what you guys report in

2 your marketing materials. So I actually feel a lot

3 better about the numbers.

4 Now, if you're saying we should just make the

5 installed cost scale across all the ELs, I mean, that's

6 something -- it won't change the policy decision or the

7 negotiations. It just makes the numbers inflated across

8 the board.

9 MR. WHITWELL: And as far as the marketing

10 values that are put on public pages, you know, those

11 typically do -- that's like a best-case-type situation we

12 use in marketing. So it's -- wouldn't necessarily be the

13 average that you would see. Which, I guess, these simple

14 paybacks are expected to be an average value, correct?

15 But what we put in our marketing material is -- it's not

16 uncommon to take, you know, to use a high electricity

17 rate and a low -- and a high cooling hour area to -- and

18 that's what you -- so that wouldn’t necessarily be

19 representative of the average. So that's a pretty common

20 marketing process --

21 MR. CYMBALSKY: It's not all --

22 MR. WHITWELL: -- I can say that as an

23 engineer.

24 MR. HURST: So this is John Hurst from Lennox.

25 It's also not always representative of customer behavior
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1 in terms of what they buy. I mean, if you looked at the

2 volumes, yeah, I wish people bought on life cycle-cost,

3 but that's not always the case. It's not typically the

4 case.

5 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yeah, no. I would -- I'm not

6 -- I wasn't making a statement about what they buy.

7 However, we do -- we do notice now that with the new AHRI

8 data for the -- for the smaller units, we have over --

9 we're nearing 40 percent at EL 3 and above. And for the

10 15-ton units, we have 30 --

11 MR. WHITWELL: Where are you, John?

12 MR. CYMBALSKY: I'm on page 43 -- slide 43.

13 MR. WHITWELL: Thank you.

14 MR. CYMBALSKY: So again, the new data provided

15 by AHRI, which obviously we appreciate, points, you know,

16 to a substantial market at EL 3 or above for the

17 seven-and-a-half and 15-ton representative units, and

18 getting up to over, what, 16 percent for the 30-ton.

19 So yeah, so I think -- I mean, to me, all the

20 data changes, to me, point in the right direction in

21 terms of all the numbers we've seen; not just our own,

22 but all the numbers that are out there, public and

23 available, and now what's supplemented by the AHRI data.

24 So, you know, I mean -- I think the installed

25 cost, if we're just talking about scaling all of them
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1 again, the absolute values will change. But what's

2 important, I think, is the increments. And so if we're

3 just going to scale dollars per ton, it's going to scale

4 everywhere from what at least I could tell from what

5 you're saying. And I guess the values... What's the

6 value in terms of what we're going to negotiate on the

7 policy decision? But, points taken.

8 MALE SPEAKER: (Inaudible.)

9 MR. CYMBALSKY: No, I don't think --

10 MR. deLASKI: So what did Rusty -- because if

11 the cost is going to go up -- this is Andrew -- it goes

12 up, that dollar-per-ton is in the base case, too.

13 MR. CYMBALSKY: Right. So it will -- it won't

14 effect the payback. It will just -- it will just scale

15 all the numbers up by whatever that increment is. And I

16 guess what I'm saying is, the increment will stay the

17 same. It's just -- it will be different numbers. The

18 increment will stay the same, but you'll just inflate

19 every number.

20 MR. RAMIREZ: Mark, do you have something?

21 MR. TERZIGNI: No. Just to mention

22 (inaudible).

23 MR. WHITWELL: So Bob Whitwell from Carrier. 

24 So John, just a comment on the, you know, your comment

25 earlier about the payback. And, you know, when I look
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1 specifically at page 45 in the 15-ton and look at the

2 payback and the percent of consumers with net cost, it's

3 showing, you know, at those high levels, basically at --

4 everyone's saving money.

5 I just question -- I mean, something just

6 doesn't smell right in the analysis there, because if

7 that was the case, it would seem like we'd be selling --

8 the industry would be selling a lot more volume in those

9 higher efficiency levels than what we're actually seeing.

10 MR. CYMBALSKY: So this goes to John Hurst's

11 comment about people not buying on life-cycle cost. And

12 therefore, the reason this program exists is because the

13 markets are very first-cost sensitive, as opposed to

14 life- cycle cost sensitive.

15 So what you're seeing here is that over a long

16 life of the equipment... These things are long-lived,

17 right? 20-plus years we have here. We know building

18 owners don't -- they're not purchasing on 20 years. So

19 that's why you get the low market share. Even though,

20 over the life, if people were to evaluate it that way,

21 they would choose it. So that's why the program actually

22 is in existence is --

23 MR. WHITWELL: Well, yeah. And then -- I mean,

24 the other comment that we've made in the past meetings is

25 about the life.
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1 I mean, the 22-year life seems quite long. And

2 I guess we had some comments from SMACNA supporting that,

3 as well as what we see in the industry that the 17,

4 18-year life seems much more realistic to us.

5 MR. deLASKI: This is Andrew --

6 MR. WHITWELL: I don't know -- I don't know if

7 there's any new analysis on the volume analysis based on

8 that to support that, but --

9 MR. deLASKI: This is Andrew. And we've spent

10 some time on life in some of our earlier meetings. And I

11 just want to remind people, that's a distribution under

12 -- what was it? An "a-ha" moment for me was

13 understanding that there's a distribution underlying that

14 average life.

15 So when there was a time -- and Jill had raised

16 the point that, look, there's a lot of customers who, you

17 know, I don't know what your example was, but it was

18 changing the whole -- everything in 10 years or something

19 like that.

20 MS. HOOTMAN: Right.

21 MR. deLASKI: And Katie, I think, said incur

22 the distribution, said, "Yeah, that's in there." There's

23 10-year, they're all out of products that they're

24 replacing in 10 years. So again, it's an average. It's

25 not --
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1 MR. WHITWELL: No, I understand.

2 MR. deLASKI: -- it's not the whole market.

3 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, I understand that's an

4 average, but still -- I mean --

5 MS. HOOTMAN: You would say the weighting is

6 different.

7 MR. WHITWELL: -- so the average going from 18

8 to 22, that's -- you know, that's a significant shift in

9 the average from what our experience has been.

10 MR. STARR: So you know -- this is Louis with

11 NEEA. So we have our sixth power plan, and we're now

12 coming up with our seventh power plan. But in that, we

13 did a study of RTUs and their age of it. And we split it

14 up in 5, and 5 to 10 tons, and 10 tons. So this is of

15 our service area, which would be Washington, Oregon,

16 Idaho, and Montana. You know, we're looking at unit age

17 as years in the distributions. And so we have 14,000

18 that are zero to four; 26,000 are five to ten; 28,000 are

19 ten to nine; and 13,000 are over 20.

20 So I mean, I know our climate's a little milder

21 than most, perhaps, but there are a substantial amount of

22 equipment does -- you know, not to say -- I don't know.

23 I'm not so sure that 22 is that far off.

24 MR. WHITWELL: So what were those numbers

25 again?
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1 MR. STARR: Tell you what, I'll -- I'll ship

2 them out to the -- but they were 14, 26, 28, and 13. And

3 that's zero to four, five to ten, ten to nine, and

4 20-plus.

5 MR. deLASKI: 19.

6 MS. HOOTMAN: Ten to 19.

7 MR. STARR: Ten to 19, right. And that's in

8 our power plan, the sixth power plan, too. So you should

9 be able to grab it out of that.

10 MALE SPEAKER: (Inaudible.)

11 MR. STARR: Well, I mean, you're seeing 13,000

12 over 20-plus, right? So that's --

13 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah, but that's still --

14 MR. STARR: 10 to 15 percent of your market,

15 is... that share is a pretty large number.

16 MS. HOOTMAN: I don't know, doing it -- doing

17 it, it sounds like you're weighted more to the 17, and

18 agreed, you're in a very mild climate. You know, he

19 said, "Yes, the southeast would not look like that

20 profile at all."

21 MR. HUNT: Hi, this is Marshall Hunt, PG&E and

22 IOUs. This essentially is a split incentive problem.

23 Those who pay the money for the equipment are not those

24 that pay the utility bills. So I'm always concerned

25 about the customer point of view. And, again, the reason
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1 this is driven by the lowest cost is because I don't -- I

2 buy the equipment, and I don't pay the utility bill.

3 Thank you.

4 MS. HOOTMAN: Exactly, Marshall. This is Jill

5 from Trane. And along the lines, too, that John was

6 talking about, I think that, you know, theoretically or

7 what we know to be the practice of a very top-down

8 approach by the Department here is -- is sometimes very

9 suspect, really, when we know the consumer doesn't think

10 that way at all. They think very first cost, and at

11 most, look at one level above the bottom.

12 So when you look at, like, the seven-and-a-half

13 ton and you see that 48 percent at EL-1 of the customers

14 have a net cost increase, that's going to start to really

15 change the marketplace. And, in fact, cause retraction

16 in the marketplace, large retraction.

17 And then we go back to, you know, what we've

18 all been on public comments about. You know, the

19 retraction in the marketplace has not been looked at

20 correctly in my opinion in this analysis in the NOPR.

21 MR. WINNINGHAM: This is Dave with Allied. And

22 I think it's important to look at this energy analysis

23 kind of in total. Obviously, this is being driven by the

24 fan energy savings. And there -- I know there's been a

25 lot of work and input into this, but per the NOPR, the
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1 fan energy savings was kind of somewhat taken to task in

2 that it is outside of the current test procedure.

3 And as we have moved towards measures to align

4 it with what we think our building use is, we've

5 dramatically increased the fan power, and it is still

6 outside of the test procedure. The basis of the -- of

7 the DOE work is supposed to be based upon the energy use

8 per the test procedure. And obviously we're working well

9 outside of this.

10 And in looking at, particularly on the

11 seven-and-a-half ton, I'd also question the model -- the

12 models that were chosen. The -- for TSL-1 and TSL-2, the

13 fan energy power is significantly above the base, and

14 that's a key driver in the higher paybacks here. So I

15 think -- we don't see that in the other models, but on

16 the seven-and-a-half ton, that seems to be particularly

17 problematic.

18 MR. CYMBALSKY: This is John from DOE. I just

19 want to address your first point about the energy savings

20 not captured by the test procedure. In fact, that

21 happens in every rule.

22 For example, if you install LED lighting, you

23 have less cooling load, and those savings are picked up

24 in our models because those interaction effects are

25 actually very important, as they are in this rule.
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1 So I just wanted to correct that statement,

2 your first part of your statement.

3 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey, John. Just

4 clarification, you're referring to the LED lights in

5 commercial refrigeration equipment, not --

6 MR. CYMBALSKY: Well, I mean, just generally

7 speaking, that's -- that's -- that's what happens.

8 Also, with the furnace fan rule, if you use a

9 motor that gives off less heat, you have to use less heat

10 in the furnace. We capture all that in these rules, and

11 this is -- this is no different.

12 MR. WHITWELL: Well, there is -- there is a --

13 there is a difference here. And that is that the fan

14 energy savings that's in the analysis is assuming that

15 for those -- for that EL level that the fan is actually

16 operating as a staged air or VAV.

17 There's nothing -- I mean, you can build,

18 design a unit and meet the IEER level, and it's a

19 manufacturer’s design decision on whether they're going

20 to do it with a staged fan or not, right. So -- so

21 that's just -- I mean, the analysis, assuming the staged

22 fan . . . it's a best-case situation, but it may not be

23 what manufacturers end up doing in reality.

24 So -- and it, because it's not captured in the

25 test procedure, it's outside what's in the test
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1 procedure, manufacturers can hit an IEER level without

2 having to use a staged air fan. Now, they may not. They

3 may go with the staged air fan, or they may not, but it's

4 not part of the test procedure.

5 MR. CYMBALSKY: Well, my recollection is we

6 went over that, but -- I thought we walked through that

7 discussion that that would be the most likely way to do

8 it, but --

9 MR. WHITWELL: John, I'm not arguing that it

10 may be the way to do it [or] the way that most do it, but

11 since it's not part of the test procedure, it's just --

12 it's not guaranteed, right?

13 MR. WINNINGHAM: And this is Dave with Allied.

14 And, again, kind of looking at the data from the

15 seven-and-a-half ton, I think, kind of illustrates that

16 point. In that at the -- at TSL 1 and 2, there are

17 higher fan energy than the base.

18 And again, just as we're taking this analysis

19 into consideration here, realize that there's multiple

20 Variables, and there are design choices. And the models

21 that were selected, while valid, do have an impact here.

22 And there are various approaches that may or may not have

23 the same result.

24 MR. STARR: This is Louis Starr with NEEA. I

25 think with this test procedure and -- or rule making,
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1 with all of them, you know, one of the -- Northwest is

2 pretty concerned or interested in that the test procedure

3 accurately reflects the real energy use.

4 I think more, kind of what this analysis shows,

5 is that the IEER is not reflective of maybe what the

6 actual energy use is in the real case. And I think -- I

7 think my focus coming away from this is that we need to

8 adjust that, that -- the IEER metric in the test

9 procedure to really more accurately reflect energy use in

10 how equipment is actually used in the field.

11 MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel with Mitsubishi. So

12 the test procedure was set up based on a building layout.

13 And there's an -- the external static pressure was based

14 on a certain amount of duct work for an area. So it's

15 not like this has not been thought out for the test.

16 And so you look -- I mean, if you look at

17 installations, there are a lot of rooftop units that are,

18 you know, like in big box stores where there is hardly

19 any external static pressure. There's no duct work

20 attached to them. So I mean, there's a wide spectrum of

21 usage.

22 So the test procedure, there was a great deal

23 of detail done to lay that out as more of a simple office

24 building. And I know this because when we did the test

25 standard for the VRF units, we had to take into
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1 consideration refringent piping line links to use so that

2 we would have an equitable measurement for our systems.

3 So I think we just have to be cautious about

4 saying, you know, "Let's show what happens in the field."

5 Because, again, this is representative of a -- the test

6 procedure currently is representative of a simple field

7 layout.

8 MR. STARR: Well, I'm going to have to disagree

9 with that. I mean, so -- too bad Dick Lord's not here,

10 but all these PNNL models all had duct work. And

11 actually, they all had higher static pressures than they

12 were incurring in use in here.

13 While there are some units out there that

14 aren't connected up to duct work, I would say 95 percent

15 of them are connected up there. The .3 inch static

16 pressure is really just a reflection of getting the air

17 out of the unit. I mean, the filter, the coil, that's

18 what that static pressure represents. It doesn't really

19 represent the external --

20 MS. HOOTMAN: It's external. It's external.

21 MR. STARR: The whole static pressure on that's

22 .3 for the fan or is it greater?

23 MS. HOOTMAN: The test procedure is external

24 static pressure, external to the unit.

25 MR. DOPPEL: And, again, that's -- as I was
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1 saying, it's based on --

2 MS. HOOTMAN: And .3 is representative -- hang

3 on, Paul. Jill Hootman, Trane.

4 That .3 is representative of concentric supply

5 and return. I was there and helped write this test

6 procedure. What I'm saying is, if you go up and now put

7 it into 1 inch, you are now not -- not testing one of

8 those units.

9 And as a manufacturer, I can literally make a

10 product line that all I do is concentric supply and

11 return. So now it will not be able to be tested to a

12 test procedure if you go up to 1 inch of static, because

13 now this product line was only designed for -- literally

14 designed for concentric supply and return. And I will

15 disagree with you on how much big box retailers are.

16 I was in Home Depot this weekend. I was in

17 Lowe's this weekend, and I was in K-Mart this weekend.

18 And guess what? All of them are concentric supply and

19 returns. And not all my equipment. And guess what?

20 They're all at about .3. So --

21 MR. deLASKI: Just a -- didn't -- as a going-in

22 condition for this negotiation, the guidelines we were

23 set were that the test method was out of bounds. So --

24 right? So let's -- I don't think we need to debate, you

25 know, or it's not a debate that was given -- that we are
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1 charged with.

2 MR. RAMIREZ: All right. The question I have

3 for you all is, based on the discussion that you all had

4 and the questions that were raised, how does that impact

5 what Greg just provided to us?

6 MS. MEYERS: So this is Karen with Rheem. I

7 think it impacts it a lot. Just per Andrew's point, we

8 decided the test procedure was out of bounds. We're

9 calculating all the energy analysis outside of the test

10 procedure. So it affects everything.

11 MR. RAMIREZ: So what do we need to do, then?

12 MR. deLASKI: Yeah, I'll comment. This is

13 Andrew. So actually, I'm a little sort of disconcerted

14 by this sort of -- sort of list. You guys went out for a

15 caucus -- you guys went out for a caucus, and now you

16 came back with five or six issues assigned to different

17 spokespeople. And these are all issues we've discussed.

18 I mean, this is -- these aren't -- these aren't

19 new things. And we've been working through these issues

20 in meetings that we've had over the past several weeks.

21 The installed costs that Rusty raised, the lifetime

22 issues raised by Bob, the shipments issues that Jill's

23 raising, which we're going to hear more about, I think,

24 if we let the consultants do their presentation. You

25 called it retraction. I think you mean shipments.
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1 Implication is the decline in shipments. Field versus

2 test conditions. You know, are we actually going to talk

3 about what happened to -- to -- in the install as opposed

4 to what happened in the test? And the specific units

5 analyzed. And this is what we've been talking about for

6 the -- several meetings.

7 MR. HURST: This is John Hurst from Lennox --

8 MR. deLASKI: So the implication is that you

9 guys want to go back through all those things again? I

10 certainly hope not. I certainly hope -- I came to these

11 two meetings, today and tomorrow, with the hope that we

12 could fulfill our charge and begin to talk about, "Okay.

13 So what can we all agree to?"

14 And the analysis has evolved, as we all knew it

15 would evolve. There's been a lot of changes in response

16 to the input from this group. I think it's stronger now

17 than it was because of that input, and it provided the

18 basis for us to talk about what the parties can work with

19 in terms of levels and dates. And I would hope that we

20 would be able to move on to, you know, continue the

21 discussion on curbs.

22 So to answer your question, Javier, "Where does

23 that take us?" I hear the concerns, and you know, some

24 discomfort with the results. But they are what they are

25 at this point, and I would hope that we can let --
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1 continue the discussion of the curbs that I think Detlef

2 is prepared to do.

3 Move to the shipments, which is, I think, based

4 on the data that AHRI provided last Wednesday. And then,

5 I would hope that we could use it as a basis to begin

6 talking about levels as we -- how we would this meeting.

7 MR. RAMIREZ: Thank you. Now, so with that,

8 let me give enough information to go through the curb

9 information. How much time do you need for that?

10 MR. WESTPHALEN: I don't think I need a whole

11 lot of time to present it. There may be questions and --

12 MR. RAMIREZ: Well, so procedurally then, it's

13 quarter to 12:00. I'm sorry --

14 MR. HURST: I was just going to say that,

15 Andrew, you're right. You did a very good summation of

16 kind of where we are.

17 The other thing that was left out, though. . .

18 the one other piece is from DOE Counsel. We still have a

19 number of questions that we would like answered which

20 would be very helpful and very productive to move these

21 negotiations forward. So we're waiting on that as well,

22 and I think that would be extremely helpful if we could

23 maybe get those answers shortly.

24 MR. RAMIREZ: And queue the mic.

25 MR. STAS: This is Eric Stas, DOE General
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1 Counsel's office. Members of the Working Group have

2 raised certain concerns about how the Department might

3 react if presented with a consensus recommendation to

4 adopt regulations that included multiple metrics, use of

5 both a performance standard and a design standard,

6 phased-in standards, and alternative compliance dates.

7 While we would, of course, consider any consensus

8 Recommendation on its merits, and therefore, can't

9 predict how the Department would respond to a particular

10 recommendation, we think all of these approaches merit

11 continued discussion and encourage the Working Group to

12 negotiate a consensus recommendation.

13 As previously noted, DOEs has used similar

14 approaches in each of these areas when regulating

15 pursuant to its direct final rule authority. As you

16 know, for residential central air conditioners, we

17 adopted a dual metric, both SEER and EER. And for

18 dishwashers, we adopted a phased-in standard.

19 We encourage the Working Group to negotiate a

20 consensus recommendation, including one that may use any

21 or all of the concepts suggested in the questions. If

22 that occurs, and that recommendation is adopted by the

23 full ASRAC committee and presented to DOE, one option the

24 agency would consider is exercising its direct file rule

25 of authority, pursuant to 42 USC 6295(p)(4).
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1 MR. RAMIREZ: John, does that help?

2 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yes.

3 MR. RAMIREZ: All right. So then with --

4 MS. MEYERS: Could we --

5 MR. RAMIREZ: We'll take your initial answer.

6 MS. MEYERS: So this is Karen with Rheem. And

7 just, you know, to be clear, if we could get a copy of

8 that. Because I certainly want to -- to coalesce with

9 AHRI's general counsel and my company's general counsel

10 to consider how we might respond to what you have just

11 said.

12 MR. STAS: I'll check and see what we can

13 distribute.

14 MR. RAMIREZ: I think you'll end up being in

15 the --

16 MR. DOPPEL: It will be in the transcript.

17 MR. CYMBALSKY: It's on the transcript.

18 MS. MEYERS: Yeah, but the transcripts are

19 usually weeks behind. And we're trying -- we've got a

20 June 15th deadline. And we're all here trying to

21 negotiate, so we need to really understand what you said.

22 And I think, perhaps --

23 MR. CYMBALSKY: I'm going to talk to the court

24 reporter at the break and we're going -- we'll do our

25 best to clip out his statement if that will be helpful.
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1 MR. deLASKI: Eric, this is Andrew --

2 MS. MEYERS: Will that be available when?

3 MR. CYMBALSKY: I'll try to get it and e-mail

4 it to everybody as soon as possible.

5 MS. MEYERS: Thank you. Thank you, John.

6 MR. deLASKI: Why don't we take a second now to

7 try to get clarity?

8 MR. CYMBALSKY: Ah, the clarity on legal.

9 MR. deLASKI: And what I heard you say -- and

10 I'll just say what I heard, is that -- is that the four

11 questions that we posed are that, that we should consider

12 all those items as items that we are encouraged to

13 consider, to consider those four pathways. And I see you

14 nodding. And that the agency has the direct final rule

15 authority, and that that may be the tool that you use.

16 MR. CYMBALSKY: That's what we've done in the

17 past. So if we get a consensus recommendation, then we

18 would carefully consider it.

19 MR. deLASKI: So Charlie and I were sort of

20 chatting just offline here, and the question came up: So

21 what would the process look like, then?

22 So what I would hypothesize -- and correct me

23 if I'm wrong -- is that the process would look like, we

24 come to a consensus; we vote it out of this committee,

25 this working group. The process, then, is that that
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1 consensus is then presented to the parent committee,

2 ASRAC.

3 ASRAC has to approve that consensus. The

4 Department sits on ASRAC, as on its Working Group. And

5 then the Department is, under the terms of the Working

6 Group’s creation, is -- is obligated, or is -- what is

7 the term?

8 It's -- you've launched this process with the

9 purpose of coming up with a consensus. So if it's legal

10 and you have a pathway to do it, you're -- you've said

11 you'll adopt it.

12 Is that the right way to put it, John?

13 MR. CYMBALSKY: I think the subtlety here is

14 that Eric mentioned in his statement is the direct final

15 rule authority that he cited to. That might be important

16 here.

17 MR. deLASKI: Right, but --

18 MR. CYMBALSKY: I'm not saying that's yes or a

19 no. I'm just saying, you know, reading between the lines

20 of what he said --

21 MR. STAS: I mean, otherwise, I think your

22 process is very similar to any other negotiated rule

23 making where it has to go, just as you said, flow up

24 through the ASRAC committee. Otherwise, it's going to --

25 MR. deLASKI: It's the same exact process we're
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1 talking about whereas under the -- without the direct

2 final rule, what happened is that once we got the

3 consensus, you'd either issue a final rule or an SNOPR in

4 this case. In this case, you'd issue a direct final

5 rule. It's just a different --

6 MR. CYMBALSKY: I think the difference that I

7 see is part of the negotiated framework. Instead of a

8 consensus that has been done outside of DOE's walls and

9 participation, is that -- and the reason we have Eric

10 here is that if we start negotiating something illegal,

11 you know, and come up with that, I would hope that Eric

12 would say, you know, "Don't negotiate something illegal."

13 Right? "Because we don't like that." Right?

14 And I think what -- what I heard, and this is

15 the first I'm hearing the statement from Eric, is that we

16 have all these tools to consider, and we should consider

17 them. That's what I heard. And I'm negotiating just

18 like the rest of you, so --

19 MR. deLASKI: That's actually the best response

20 I could have hoped for. I mean, it's 4 for 4; 4 yeses is

21 the way I hear it. So -- and we, you know, I think that

22 gives us more latitude to be able to come up with good

23 results.

24 MR. RAMIREZ: All right. Then, just

25 procedurally, did we want to go into the curb
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1 information, or did you want to break for lunch and then

2 go into the curb information?

3 MALE SPEAKER: Curb it.

4 MR. RAMIREZ: Curb the curb? So how much --

5 wait a minute. Now, when you say, "curb it," you're

6 saying --

7 MR. CYMBALSKY: Do the curb.

8 (Laughter.) (Simultaneous speaking.)

9 MR. RAMIREZ: I caught it, too. That's why I

10 asked.

11 MR. WESTPHALEN: Okay. Detlef Westphalen with

12 Navigant. I'll be presenting what little we have on the

13 engineering analysis for this meeting. So just an

14 overview of what we prepared for the engineering analysis

15 for this meeting.

16 MR. CYMBALSKY: Slide 12.

17 MR. WESTPHALEN: Starting with some very modest

18 changes to performance correlations to some of the 30-ton

19 models.

20 Last meeting, we discussed an approach to

21 address the trend of curb -- use of the curb adapters

22 with efficiency levels, and we showed analysis for the

23 small and the large classes. This time we're presenting

24 essentially the same analysis applied to the very large

25 class.
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1 Then we have a few other points here. We

2 developed some thoughts on a definition for dual-duct,

3 and my understanding is that Carrier has prepared some

4 material there, as well. You know -- we can, you know,

5 do that after lunch if we want to.

6 We also, at the end of last meeting, promised

7 to send out information regarding the IEER differentials

8 associated with gas heat products and also the heat pump

9 products. So we sent that information out, and I just

10 have a one-slide summary on that in here.

11 And there was also a request -- you might have

12 seen my e-mail this morning -- to provide the component

13 wattage profile tables with the calculations in them so

14 that there can be some offline evaluation of the impact

15 on IEER of the indoor fan power changes. And so you have

16 that for the seven-and-a-half and 15, and we can talk

17 about that more later as well regarding what we do about

18 the 30-ton -- the very large class there. And finally,

19 no changes to the cost curves for this meeting.

20 So moving on to the curb adapter analysis.

21 Again, it's the identical approach that we took for the

22 small and the large classes. There were more nominal

23 capacities that we looked at to which we assigned the

24 shipments. And the chart at the bottom left there shows

25 the percentage shipments for the entire range of
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1 capacities throughout all of the classes, and the table

2 shows those numbers.

3 Otherwise, we applied the same approach

4 regarding distribution of shipments amongst the

5 manufacturers represented at each nominal capacity. For

6 the very large class, we added another manufacturer. That

7 manufacturer had a little bit more representation than

8 one of the manufacturers we had for the small and large

9 classes. So we have five manufacturers that we're

10 looking at here for these curves.

11 And so the method we chose in order to decide

12 at what efficiency level it would be required to use an

13 adapter curb is the same as we used for the previous

14 analysis. And I'm not going to go through all of this

15 again, but the charts show essentially at what level the

16 different manufacturers would likely be forced to move to

17 a different -- a larger size, and thereby require an

18 adapter curb.

19 And so we have the six, seven, or eight slides

20 here -- and I'm not going to dwell on each -- but,

21 essentially showing that the unit base area and the IEER

22 associated with the various unit base areas for the

23 different manufacturers. And then, the table on the top

24 right shows the efficiency level at which the curb

25 adapters would be used for each of those manufacturers.
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1 And so if you follow, for instance,

2 Manufacturer A, you see at a size of -- it's hard to see

3 with this scale here -- but something like 75 square foot

4 base area, having efficiency levels at about 10.6 and

5 about 11.7, then, when moving higher than that, would

6 jump to the larger size and require the curb adapter at

7 EL 2.

8 And as I said, I'm not going to go through each

9 of these slides and each of these manufacturers. You

10 could take a look at that at your leisure and comment on

11 whether we've selected the right IEER levels.

12 MR. WHITWELL: Detlef -- no, go ahead.

13 MS. MEYERS: I was just going to say, can you

14 walk me through this again? Because I'm -- so let's go

15 through Manufacturer A.

16 MR. WESTPHALEN: So Manufacturer A, you see --

17 is that the red button? Oh, the mouse here. Okay.

18 That's what you were saying. All right. There we go.

19 So Manufacturer A -- let me get that so I can

20 see it here -- has a unit here at about 10.6, and a unit

21 here at about 11.7. And then going above that, you know,

22 at EL 2, which is the, you know, the low level at which

23 we decide to consider size increase and use of adapter

24 curbs at that level, that manufacturer would have to

25 increase size, and those units would require a curb
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1 adapter.

2 Manufacturer B, you have a unit here, but at

3 10.05, and 10.9. These are all the same base areas,

4 12.1, then going up to 13.8, roughly. And so that

5 manufacturer would then require an increase in size,

6 going up to EL 4 here.

7 And the devil is in the details here. And so

8 you know, we spent some time deciding at which levels

9 each manufacturer would have to increase size. But, you

10 know, that's something that certainly is subject to

11 review by the committee.

12 MR. SACHS: Detlef, this is Harvey. As I

13 recall, you have discussed each manufacturer's data on

14 these charts with that manufacturer.

15 MR. WESTPHALEN: We have not specifically --

16 MR. SACHS: Uh-huh, okay. Thank you.

17 MR. WESTPHALEN: -- discussed. No.

18 MS. HOOTMAN: Some of us can gather what --

19 where we are on this, but it is the units that you've

20 used for the other part of the analysis, correct?

21 MALE SPEAKER: Well, it's more than that.

22 MR. WESTPHALEN: Yeah, you --

23 MS. HOOTMAN: This is just the catalog data?

24 You went out and looked and cataloged data?

25 MR. WESTPHALEN: These are the units that we
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1 also collected to develop the cost curves, for example.

2 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes, okay. Okay.

3 MR. deLASKI: Detlef, but this is the method

4 that you described in our meeting two weeks ago?

5 MR. WESTPHALEN: That's correct, yeah.

6 MR. deLASKI: And we discussed it that day. 

7 And my recollection was that -- I mean, we're going to

8 discuss this more today, of course. But my recollection

9 is you got a lot of nods on this last time around and

10 went around, and you implemented what you got nods on

11 last time around.

12 MR. WESTPHALEN: Well, yeah. We took exactly

13 the same approach because we felt there was consensus

14 that it was an appropriate approach.

15 So this is the 25-ton, 27-ton, a few more

16 models here.

17 MR. WHITWELL: So Detlef, just move back to the

18 25-ton. So I mean, I understand what you did here and

19 agree with the approach based on what information you

20 have, but just would throw out there that I'm looking at

21 Manufacturer D. And at first, I didn't understand why

22 you picked EL 5 for that one, and then I saw there's a

23 point up at the top, right, that point up there, that's

24 doing it?

25 MR. WESTPHALEN: Yeah, so that one is already
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1 at EL 4, so that you wouldn't require the adapter curb --

2 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah.

3 MR. WESTPHALEN: -- until you get to EL 5.

4 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, yeah. Okay.

5 MR. WESTPHALEN: So okay. 25, we have 27-ton,

6 and you notice that for this 27-ton nominal capacity, we

7 have fewer manufacturers represented. And for the cases

8 where there are fewer manufacturers represented, we just

9 split all of the shipments at that nominal capacity

10 between the two represented, for example.

11 So the Manufacturer A and D here would be more

12 strongly weighted than they would be for some of the

13 other capacities where there are more manufacturers

14 involved. 30-ton, 35, and you notice the base areas are

15 getting larger at the larger capacities.

16 40-ton, 45 we have -- we had just one

17 manufacturer represented. And for this -- the EL 2 for

18 that manufacturer is weighted 100 percent for those

19 shipments. 50-ton, 55, and then 60 was the top end of

20 the range that we looked at.

21 So using all these selections, we then added up

22 what percentage would be required to use an adapter curb

23 or would use an adapter curb at each of the candidate

24 efficiency levels.

25 And you remember, there was a baseline roughly
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1 31 percent that would be using adapter curbs at EL 0 and

2 EL 1, and that 20 percent of the installations would be

3 new construction and would not be using adapter curbs. So

4 the chart would -- the maximum level would be 80 percent,

5 and then you have a distribution from roughly 31 percent

6 up to the -- it's not quite 80 percent, because there is

7 one example where a manufacturer would be able to attain

8 the EL 5 with the baseline size.

9 So this is what we have for the very large

10 class. Now, we changed the numbers slightly for the

11 small and the large, and the maximum difference here is

12 .3 percent. And the reason we did this was that when we

13 initially implemented the analysis, we considered some of

14 those higher efficiency level products that might not

15 have -- that might already have been at the larger base

16 size.

17 And so we kind of incorrectly assumed that

18 those would not require -- well, I shouldn't say

19 incorrectly. We didn't have enough information to know

20 whether those might already be at the size that would be,

21 you know, at a larger size of -- I have a feeling that

22 didn't go, you know, go over quite clear.

23 Basically, the numbers that we're showing now

24 shift a little bit towards the lower efficiency levels

25 because we're assuming in the analysis now that there's
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1 nothing shipping out above EL 1. And it just simplifies

2 the analysis in the absence of information of exactly

3 what size we're talking about for some of the existing

4 products that might be out there that are -- that might

5 be at higher levels.

6 This chart shows the slightly modified numbers

7 for the large equipment. And these new values were used

8 in Greg's analysis. So that's what I have on the curbs.

9 MR. deLASKI: Detlef, one question for

10 clarification. This is Andrew. So in the last couple

11 slides there, you used the right-hand bar. Is that what

12 you're telling us?

13 MR. WESTPHALEN: Yeah, the revised, the blue

14 values --

15 MR. deLASKI: Yeah, there was no initial -- you

16 haven't done this before, right, so --

17 MR. WESTPHALEN: No, these are the small and

18 large that I presented last year -- oh, last year, last

19 meeting.

20 (Laughter.)

21 MR. deLASKI: Oh, okay. I got it. Thank you.

22 MR. WESTPHALEN: So if there are no questions

23 on that, the next topic is dual-ducts. And I don't know

24 if we want to hold on this and -- you know, I think, Bob,

25 since you worked on developing something for this, you
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1 know, we would, you know, like to give you the floor

2 first on describing it.

3 MR. WHITWELL: Sure. I mean, I have three

4 slides so it might not take very long. If you want to go

5 forward and do it, we can.

6 MR. RAMIREZ: Everyone good with that?

7 MR. WHITWELL: Okay.

8 MR. WESTPHALEN: Is that it on the computer

9 already?

10 MR. WHITWELL: I heard this morning it sounded

11 like it's there, right.

12 MALE SPEAKER: I think he has it at the bottom.

13 MR. WHITWELL: Is it the first -- up at the

14 top?

15 MALE SPEAKER: Double duct. Yeah, you can

16 click that one.

17 MR. WHITWELL: Oh, looks like what I called it.

18 MALE SPEAKER: It could be already opened down

19 here. It's two -- looks like two.

20 MR. WHITWELL: Yep. Okay. So this is Bob

21 Whitwell from Carrier. At the last meeting, I was asked

22 to put together a draft for a product class definition

23 for double-ducted equipment.

24 So this first slide is just kind of showing

25 what one configuration of a double duct did. I actually
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1 have two different configurations here: One is

2 horizontal, but we also can have vertical double-ducted

3 units.

4 So there is the horizontal version. Typically,

5 this would be installed in a ceiling plenum, for example.

6 And what's important here -- I'm going to walk up. No, I

7 can't do that because then --

8 MALE SPEAKER: Well, you can -- you can take --

9 MR. WHITWELL: -- you can't hear me.

10 So what's -- what's different about these units

11 is these would be ducted both on the indoor side, the

12 evaporator side, and the condenser side of an air

13 conditioning unit.

14 So this is the condenser section here. So the

15 air comes in here from outside, and then its got the coil

16 and the fan in here, and it's ducted out through the

17 other side. So they -- they typically would -- they

18 could operate, depending on the installation, they could

19 operate at zero external static all the way up to some

20 number that might be as high as 1 inch of external

21 static.

22 And in order to be able to do that, they have

23 -- typically, would have forward-curved centrifugal fans

24 in there to be able to deliver the higher static. And

25 they have higher horsepower motors in there, as well, to
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1 deliver the higher static.

2 Also, since they are designed typically to go

3 in a ceiling plenum, they are somewhat space-constrained.

4 Typically these are less than 36 inches in height. So go

5 any higher, it can't fit in the ceiling plenum. So it's

6 somewhat of a space-constrained product as well.

7 This is an example of a vertical configuration

8 double-ducted. Similar to what you saw in the previous

9 one, except the components are arranged vertically. So

10 you can see the condenser section is on the bottom, and

11 then up on top would be the evaporator section. And it

12 shows the air inlet and outlet there on the right-hand

13 side of the unit.

14 Again, these, you know, okay. Over here. So

15 these are also indoor applications, space-constrained in

16 that they need to be able to fit through doorways in

17 order to be taken into a building and carried into a

18 machine room or into the basement or wherever this is

19 installed. So again, typically 36 inches or less in

20 width.

21 So this is a draft of the double-duct air

22 conditioner and heat pump definition. So non-weatherized

23 indoor construction can be installed as a single package

24 or a split. So if I go back to this slide, these are --

25 can be designed or can be shipped based on customers
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1 requirements so that it's split right about here. So you

2 have one section that has the condenser and the

3 compressor, and then the other section has the evaporator

4 coil and the fan. Same thing with these, it can be split

5 in this area so that they -- they can be installed as

6 single piece or splits.

7 MR. SACHS: Bob?

8 MR. WHITWELL: Yes?

9 MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs, just a clarification.

10 Are these typically done in that modular fashion so they

11 can be shipped and assembled, or are they typically --

12 MR. WHITWELL: They're typically, either the

13 customer decides -- orders them as either a split or as a

14 single piece.

15 MR. SACHS: Well, let me try to refine my

16 question. Is there significant difference when you

17 manufacture that product? Are the two sections --

18 MR. WHITWELL: They're essentially the same.

19 They're essentially the same, right.

20 MR. SACHS: Thank you.

21 MR. WHITWELL: Okay. So as I mentioned, space22 constrained to fit in the ceiling plenums and through

23 interior doorways. The horizontally-configured products

24 must be less -- 36 inches or less in height. And the

25 vertically-configured products are limited to 36 inches
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1 in depth.

2 Cooling capacity range on these can be up to

3 240,000 BTU per hour for air-cooled condensers. In some

4 cases, these are supplied with water-cooled condensers. 

5 But for this definition, I'm just looking at air-cooled

6 condensers. And then the important thing here is that

7 air over both the evaporator and the condenser coils is

8 ducted to and from the unit with field-supplied duct

9 work.

10 I thought about adding an external static

11 requirement on the outdoor, but I didn't know if that was

12 getting into the test procedure as opposed to a product

13 class definition, so I left that off here. But, it would

14 be -- I think the minimum is typically around two-tenths

15 of an inch. I mean, actually, they can go down to zero,

16 but it -- based on what I looked at for the standard

17 motor or the base motor, it looks like it would have up

18 to about two-tenths external static capability. And then

19 after that, you get into higher horsepower motors.

20 So that's all I have. It is a small class.

21 There's -- I know we manufacture -- we offer both the

22 horizontal and the vertical configuration. There are

23 maybe three or four other manufacturers that I'm aware

24 of. I think Navigant actually had a list of

25 manufacturers for a horizontal configuration.
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1 MR. HUNT: Bob, this is Marshall Hunt, PG&E. 

2 So what test standards do you guys have to use for this

3 equipment?

4 MR. WHITWELL: Well, currently, it's tested per

5 either AHRI 340/360 or 210/240 depending on the size.

6 MR. HUNT: Thank you.

7 MR. WHITWELL: Yep. Andrew?

8 MR. deLASKI: This is Andrew. Can you give us

9 a better sense of the -- you think the capacity is up to

10 240,000 BTUs per hour. Can you give us a feel for the --

11 sort of where the meat of the market is? Is there --

12 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. I think, based on -- I

13 can't speak for the whole industry, I can speak for --

14 for my company. This -- currently we have two or three

15 sizes. This one goes up to 8-ton that we're currently

16 offering. We have offered larger in the past, but have

17 stopped offering those because of not being able to meet

18 efficiency standards.

19 This one currently goes up to 14-ton. Again,

20 this, we have offered up to 20-ton in the past, but we no

21 longer are, based on not being able to meet the latest

22 efficiency standard on this as well.

23 MR. deLASKI: And when you say not being able

24 to meet the standard, is there an engineering reason why

25 you weren't able to meet the standard? Or was that
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1 because the existing products that you had didn't meet

2 the standard and you chose not to reengineer it?

3 MR. WHITWELL: Well, it's some of both. It's

4 some of both. But remember, there is some space

5 constraint on these products. So you can make it bigger.

6 You can't make them wider, and you can't make them

7 taller. And you get into some fit-up issues as you make

8 these units -- make these units bigger.

9 This one, the vertical one, for example, so you

10 don't -- can't make it wider or you can't get it fitted

11 through doors. If these are already -- these can be up

12 to 90 inches tall. So they will fit through an 8-foot

13 tall door, but to make them bigger then you wouldn't --

14 it wouldn't fit. So I guess you could go in another

15 direction as well, but, you know, it just gets to be

16 quite large.

17 MR. deLASKI: And I'm not cutting you off, but

18 you said the vertical unit up to -- how many tons did you

19 say?

20 MR. WHITWELL: We have offered in the past, up

21 to 20. But today we're -- I believe we're limited to 14

22 or 15.

23 MR. deLASKI: I have a follow on, if you don't

24 mind. And I think in our earlier meeting when these

25 first came up, I think it came up one or a couple -- two
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1 to three meetings ago, maybe one of our first meetings.

2 MR. WHITWELL: In the first meeting, John

3 mentioned that it was something that he wanted this group

4 to talk about.

5 MR. deLASKI: And I think at the time, someone

6 said -- it may have been you, you know, these things are

7 pretty expensive compared to --

8 MR. WHITWELL: I don't know that I made that

9 comment.

10 MR. deLASKI: Okay.

11 MR. CYMBALSKY: This is John. I don't think

12 that was made, either. And I think from the discussion

13 we were going to tee up, we were -- we were really just

14 considering the horizontal units for this, not the

15 vertical.

16 MR. WHITWELL: There is some extra cost

17 associated with these, Andrew. Because typically

18 these... like an evaporator coil would be four or more

19 rows in order to fit it in -- within the space

20 constraint. So you're not -- it's not the optimal or

21 most efficient use of the material when you talk about

22 going to a deep versus a larger, less deep coil. So

23 there probably is some cost impact because of the design

24 and having to fit in that space.

25 Yes, I know. I think, John, you're right. The
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1 original discussion may have been prompted by some

2 manufacturers who provided comments on the horizontal.

3 But I thought if we're -- since we're talking about it,

4 just to make it known that there are vertical

5 configurations that could fit the same type of

6 definition.

7 MR. SACHS: Bob, this is Harvey. And clearly,

8 I'm less concerned about national energy savings if this

9 is a product class which cannot get as high efficiency as

10 the standard package units if it doesn't have much

11 potential for growth. So clearly, it's a non-weatherized

12 unit, so it's not frequently going to be used to replace

13 an RTU.

14 MR. WHITWELL: No.

15 MR. SACHS: It -- I'm sort of curious where it

16 is conventionally being applied. Because it seems to me

17 that it's a good way to bring the noise closer to the

18 users of the building.

19 MR. WHITWELL: Definitely, it does that.

20 MR. SACHS: So where -- what kind of buildings

21 or uses of buildings seem to be getting these? Just so I

22 can have a hunch about whether it's an application that's

23 likely to be inherently sales limited or one that might

24 grow as loophole.

25 MR. WHITWELL: Well, I mean, these -- I think
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1 in the horizontal one, a lot of them are retrofits. 

2 They're buildings where these things had been installed

3 in the past. The sales volume is relatively low on these

4 things; these are not big sellers. They can be installed

5 in a variety of applications. Could be in an office, for

6 example, that's within a -- perhaps within a larger

7 space, right? Where you have the unit and you don't want

8 to discharge the heat into that space, you need to duct

9 it away outside of the building.

10 I can come back. Harvey, let me come back and

11 give you some more examples of these types of

12 installations.

13 MS. HOOTMAN: Bob, I'll add just a couple that

14 I know of. The horizontals would be put over a corridor.

15 So sometimes like classrooms or schools and over

16 corridors, you know, where they -- especially older

17 schools. And so the noise issue is not necessarily

18 there, but they're being able to retrofit those.

19 And also, this vertical one is used sometimes

20 in like old warehouse buildings where they become flea

21 markets or, you know, converted into something like that. 

22 You know, where you didn't have roof structure to begin

23 with, you had a very light roof to --

24 MR. WHITWELL: Right. That's a good point.

25 Roof structure, if you don't have it for a rooftop.
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1 MR. SACHS: So this is Harvey. Again, clearly,

2 if -- if we're leaning toward a product class that would

3 allow a lower efficiency standard, those of us on the

4 advocate's side are principally concerned that it not be

5 something which has the potential for large growth in

6 sales volume paresthetizing the more-efficient RTUs. And

7 so I'm looking toward an understanding of that issue.

8 MR. deLASKI: Can you go back to your slide

9 where you had -- this is Andrew again -- where you had

10 your -- this one.

11 Right, so I think this is where you, you know,

12 would have to come up to a definition, turn this into a

13 definition that will give you comfort that people aren't

14 going to take this thing and put it on a roof --

15 MR. WHITWELL: So it's non-weatherized, indoor

16 construction. Right, so that was one of the key things

17 that I wanted to get in here because we don't want people

18 to apply this to rooftops, right?

19 The other thing, and I mentioned if we -- I

20 don't know if we can -- but if we could apply some

21 requirement for an external static pressure on the

22 condenser side, that could also possibly help there.

23 MR. SACHS: That's very appealing to me. You

24 said that the units on the market today are typically

25 centrifugal fans to support the SP, and I hate to get
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1 into a prescriptive requirement for centrifugals, but I

2 sure would like to see something that assures that lower

3 efficiency is justified by an inherent performance

4 feature.

5 MR. WHITWELL: And yeah, I saw -- I looked

6 ahead and Detlef, I saw that Navigant had some proposals

7 that included external static pressure, or at least you

8 were listed -- you listed some external static pressure,

9 right?

10 MR. WESTPHALEN: Yeah. This is Detlef. We did

11 some research to see, you know, what are the maximum

12 heights on these horizontal units and also the ranges of

13 external statics, and we had some other thoughts and

14 subtleties regarding the definition that, you know, may

15 be worth discussing.

16 MR. WHITWELL: Okay. Do you want to put yours

17 Up, and we'll kind of merge?

18 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yeah, that's great. And thank

19 you, Bob. I appreciate you actually tackling that.

20 And I think we can -- for those in the room,

21 slide 31 will -- let's just jump there.

22 MR. WESTPHALEN: Well, I think it might be

23 useful to start with 28.

24 MR. CYMBALSKY: So I think the first

25 distinction here is that when we initially thought about
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1 this -- "this," being DOE -- we were just considering the

2 horizontal units, not the verticals.

3 MR. WESTPHALEN: Yeah, and we -- why don't I go

4 up there? It would be easier.

5 MR. WHITWELL: And that -- I agree with that.

6 But like I said, as we were -- as I was looking at this

7 and working with some of the folks within the company, we

8 realized that we have -- there are vertical products that

9 really have similar -- very similar requirements or

10 characteristics.

11 MR. CYMBALSKY: And obviously we're open to

12 discussing those.

13 MR. WESTPHALEN: Right. We noticed that there

14 are horizontal, horizontal splittable, vertical, single

15 package, and vertical splittable. And so as John

16 mentioned, we focused on the horizontal, whether or not

17 splittable.

18 We thought about the single package vertical

19 and thought, "Well, don't we already have a single

20 package vertical unit class?" And, you know, if it's a

21 single package and not splittable, is that -- is the

22 product that you're thinking about any different from the

23 single package vertical unit class?

24 MR. WHITWELL: We -- technically, if we read

25 the definition, the vertical packaged air conditioner
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1 heat pump, yes, we could -- we do fit -- those vertical

2 units can fit in that definition as well, so --

3 MR. SACHS: I'm confused. This happens a

4 couple of times a session. This is Harvey.

5 My memory was that the SPVU as a product class

6 was small stuff you hang on the end of a portable

7 classroom.

8 MR. WHITWELL: And that's why we don't sell our

9 product as that. But if you read the product, the

10 definition of that product class, the vertical unit that

11 we offer could fit -- it could -- could meet that

12 definition.

13 MR. SACHS: But the -- and that's what I'm

14 trying to support. Because that SPVU is a separate

15 product class today, if I understand it correctly, as

16 essentially zero static on the condenser side because

17 it's just hung on the outside or the outside wall of a

18 small installation. They're also small units

19 capacity-wise, some of them serrated. Are we talking

20 about something different from that?

21 MR. WESTPHALEN: Well, the definition for SPVU

22 does allow for interior installation adjacent to the

23 exterior wall. And that's -- that's what this type of a

24 unit...

25 MALE SPEAKER: (Inaudible.)
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1 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, it could be zero static,

2 right. Harvey, you're right.

3 MR. WESTPHALEN: But, you know, our question

4 was: Okay. Well, how would a double-duct single package

5 vertical unit necessarily be any different from the

6 existing single package vertical unit class that we have?

7 MR. SACHS: What I'm hearing is that -- and

8 this is Harvey -- is that the difference is that it must

9 have a significant ESP to support the condenser side duct

10 work.

11 MR. WESTPHALEN: Okay. I mean --

12 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, I think that could be part

13 of the definition, absolutely.

14 MR. WESTPHALEN: Okay. So in our looking at

15 this issue, we separated out the single package vertical

16 units and, you know, maybe in the discussion, we can

17 bring them back in with some specific requirements. We

18 saw some of these horizontal units that seemed to be

19 clearly marketed for computer room applications. And

20 we're aware that they're a computer room unit -- computer

21 room air conditioners, so they have a separate class. So

22 we didn't consider those.

23 And so we still have left the vertical unit

24 with a split configuration, which, we didn't specifically

25 look at in what we were doing here, but certainly could
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1 be put back on the table if that is in the interest of

2 the committee. That's the last bullet there.

3 So then this chart shows some of the -- the

4 vertical dimension data for some of these horizontal

5 units. It shows five different brands there. And Bob

6 mentioned 36 inches, but what's on the market isn't any

7 higher than, like, 33 and a third.

8 And then we also looked at the external static

9 pressure ranges. These are the units that we found for

10 which we could get this information, and the standard

11 configurations all are capable of at least .2 static,

12 which is the same number Bob mentioned

13 MR. HUNT: Marshall Hunt, PG&E. Do we have

14 shipment data from AHRI on these? Could we get it?

15 MR. WESTPHALEN: Not that I'm aware of.

16 MR. HUNT: Back to -- how big is this elephant?

17 If we don't think it's going to grow and it's small now,

18 then it makes things a lot easier.

19 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, I think it would be

20 difficult to get AHRI data on this because I think, only

21 two AHRI members produce what’s up here, and we -- we

22 can't report that.

23 MR. HUNT: Thank you.

24 MR. SACHS: But what's really nice -- Harvey

25 again -- on slide 30, is looking at the last column:
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1 "Maximum outdoor static pressure." With the exception of

2 the two units from this little outfit from Syracuse, all

3 of these are at 1.0 or higher ESP. But this says we can

4 use a significant ESP as part of the product definition,

5 and that will avoid confusion with the smaller SPVUs of

6 the portable classroom type.

7 MR. WESTPHALEN: That's a possibility, yeah.

8 MR. SACHS: So thank you, Detlef.

9 MR. WESTPHALEN: Well, if somebody has one of

10 these units and says, "Okay,” I'm going to put my

11 standard configuration on it," and we define it based on

12 1-inch external. Then we're back to the question of:

13 What is it?

14 Or for example, if we said -- if we said it has

15 to be able to deliver 1-inch external on the outdoor air

16 side, then the Carrier unit is not one of these.

17 MR. SACHS: David just corrected me that I

18 really was looking at the maximum outdoor static pressure

19 instead of the outdoor static pressure which is one

20 column over.

21 MR. WHITWELL: Right.

22 MR. SACHS: But nonetheless, I think that

23 offers the potential for using, as a working hypothesis

24 that ought to be disproved, the potential for using an

25 ESP requirement as a differentiator.
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1 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, one thing that we need to

2 keep in mind, though, is if we do impose an external

3 static pressure requirement on this, the efficiencies

4 tested that way would be lower than where they are today,

5 right? So we would have to think about coming up with

6 some other level.

7 MR. SACHS: Point well-taken. I think that

8 would be part of the process of establishing a reason for

9 separate product classes. And I'm looking at the

10 parallel of the small-diameter, high-velocity residential

11 equipment where -- and that may or may not be an

12 appropriate analogy.

13 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yeah, I guess -- let's go to

14 the next slide, and hopefully, this could narrow what --

15 MR. WESTPHALEN: Yeah. I think -- one thing,

16 sorry to keep bugging you on this, but --

17 MR. CYMBALSKY: You're killing me.

18 MR. WESTPHALEN: But I think that this, you

19 know, bottom half of this page which introduced the

20 topic, you know, suggested approach. What are we trying

21 to do with this? I think, it’s probably worth talking

22 about a little bit.

23 First of all, you know, the suggested approach

24 involves developing a definition to clearly identify

25 these units so it's clear that, you know, you have one of
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1 these in front of you or maybe you do a little bit of

2 tests to figure out what its external static pressure is

3 on the outdoor side. You know, I know it's one of these,

4 and it's not one of those.

5 Then, if we can come up with such a definition,

6 the approach would be to exclude them from consideration

7 of the increased stringency levels that we're discussing

8 as part of this Working Group. And what that would mean

9 is that they would retain the existing EER standard

10 levels that, you know, that currently they're covered.

11 And at an appropriate time, modify the test

12 procedures to adopt, perhaps, IEER and to accurately

13 reflect the typical operation -- for instance, the ducted

14 condenser. And then, also in future, consider whether

15 there's any room for improvement.

16 So with that in mind, the only thing we're

17 trying to do at this point is, you know, the first

18 sub-bullet here, which is the definition. And so these

19 are some of the points that we put in our thinking.

20 First of all, it's air-cooled, commercial

21 packaged air conditioning and heating equipment, and

22 that, in itself, puts it in a certain category initially.

23 Then, we didn't include the weatherized. We could --

24 with the non-weatherized, we could consider adding that,

25 but what became a little bit unclear to me is, well, what
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1 does that mean, really? I mean, what are the specific

2 attributes that make it weatherized?

3 MR. WHITWELL: Well, I mean, when I use the

4 "non-weatherized" term, I'm talking about a unit that's

5 designed for only indoor installation.

6 MR. WESTPHALEN: But if I have this unit in

7 front of me on the floor, you know, and I say it's

8 weatherized and you say it's non-weatherized, you know,

9 how do we reconcile that?

10 MR. WHITWELL: Well, it would be part of the

11 manufacturers specifications, right?

12 MS. HOOTMAN: Right.

13 MR. WHITWELL: I mean, if it's weatherized,

14 you're qualifying it so that it can be out in the rain.

15 MS. HOOTMAN: Rain, salt, spray. You know, you

16 have a completely different look and your paint, your

17 galvanized metal, et cetera, if it's going out in the

18 weather than if it's going indoors. It doesn't have to

19 --

20 MR. deLASKI: This is Andrew. Sometimes in

21 definitions, we've used the term -- at least when we've

22 written them for legislation design, they're “marketed.”

23 Maybe there are industry standards that determine -- are

24 there industry standards that determine what's

25 weatherized?
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1 MR. THARP: UL1995 has the specific

2 requirements. If you qualify it for indoor use only, you

3 have to put that on the rating plate. If it's qualified

4 for outdoor use only, you have to put that on the rating

5 plate. So if you look at the product rating plate, it

6 will say "Outdoor Use Only. Indoor Use Only."

7 MR. deLASKI: Do you have to -- this is Andrew

8 again -- would that typically be something that is

9 manufactured for use outdoors? Is it going to be rated

10 -- or certified to that UL standard?

11 MR. THARP: Presently, that's -- you only have

12 two choices: UL1995 or UL60335 2-40.

13 MR. deLASKI: So we could potentially use one

14 of those standards.

15 MR. WESTPHALEN: Okay.

16 MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel. Just for

17 clarification of language, it wouldn't be certified to

18 UL1995, it would be evaluated by --

19 MS. HOOTMAN: Listed --

20 MR. DOPPEL: Yeah, it would be listed --

21 evaluated, and then listed.

22 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, but it could be UL -- it

23 could be listed by UL, ETL, CSA, et cetera. But it's

24 evaluated per the UL1995 test procedure standard.

25 MR. WESTPHALEN: And then that's required to be
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1 clearly marked on the nameplate so that there's no

2 question.

3 Okay. The first point here reflects one of

4 your points, Bob, maybe a single package or a split unit.

5 Item 2 here basically describes what I see is, all right,

6 you have to duct the air in and out of this thing. How

7 can we describe that in a way that a typical rooftop unit

8 could not apply? And --

9 MR. WHITWELL: Well --

10 MR. WESTPHALEN: And then, so basically saying,

11 has an outdoor section with an outdoor airflow path from

12 an inlet having provisions for duct connections on one

13 face so you couldn't have, you know, around-the-corner

14 kind of inlet the way you might have for a rooftop unit

15 through the unit to an outlet also having provisions for

16 duct connection on the same or another face of the unit.

17 MR. SACHS: I don't -- this is Harvey. I don't

18 mean to be nitpicking, but when you said "outdoor

19 section," the visualization is of something that is

20 outdoor, particularly with a split.

21 On the other hand, if you say it has a

22 condenser section, then it becomes a little bit awkward

23 in terms of the heat pump version.

24 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, I ran into the same issue.

25 So perhaps we could say condenser and then parentheses,
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1 operating as an air conditioner -- or in air conditioner

2 mode. Something like that.

3 MR. WESTPHALEN: Or parentheses: Outdoor coil.

4 MR. WHITWELL: Well, yeah, but then it comes

5 back to Harvey's concern is -- it's the outdoor air flows

6 across it, but it's still -- it's an indoor unit, right?

7 It's totally indoor.

8 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. And if you go back

9 to Bob's original definition of a non-weatherized unit,

10 that carries with it the meaning that this thing is

11 installed indoors, and the condensing in air conditioning

12 mode coil is connected on both ends to outdoor air. So I

13 -- that's one reason I like the non-weatherized if it's

14 tight enough language.

15 MR. WESTPHALEN: Okay. The third point here

16 brings in the external static pressure and using a .2,

17 which is a level that is advertised as being achievable

18 by all of the units we saw. And then we settled on a

19 maximum height of 34 inches based on the data that we

20 saw.

21 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. In my analysis, 34 was

22 the current height. I just didn't know if we needed to

23 limit it to the 34 or if we could give some extra leeway,

24 but I'd be fine with 34 on the horizontal configuration.

25 MR. SACHS: Again, this is Harvey, and I hate
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1 to sound like an ally of Bob's, but it seems to me that

2 this is easily generalized to include the verticals as

3 well. Just as for A and B, a maximum height of 34 inches

4 or maximum width of 34 inches.

5 And then you -- vertical, you know, paren,

6 vertical. And then you're covering both in some way.

7 Yeah, that's all it would take to make it both the

8 vertical and the horizontal types, I believe.

9 MR. WESTPHALEN: Yep. Well, do we want to have

10 somebody recraft that over lunch, and then --

11 MR. SACHS: I nominate Bob and Detlef.

12 (Laughter.)

13 MR. WHITWELL: Okay. I'm willing to work with

14 Detlef on it. So the only question I have -- and John,

15 this is probably for you.

16 So if we put in here that it has the external

17 static pressure of at least .2 inches, is that how, then,

18 it would be tested? Or would it -- would that be

19 something that we would work on and in the next step when

20 we -- we write a test procedure for it?

21 MR. CYMBALSKY: Someone's telling me yes. So

22 I'm going to say yes.

23 MR. WHITWELL: Yes to which?

24 MR. CYMBALSKY: The last part.

25 MR. WHITWELL: So for now, it could continue to
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1 be tested in a free blow situation. And then as we work

2 to move to an IEER --

3 MR. CYMBALSKY: With the update of the test

4 method, yeah. Being consistent with our test procedures,

5 not part of.

6 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, okay. Good.

7 MR. SACHS: Well, then I have a question --

8 it's Harvey. Are we also, then, including a prescriptive

9 requirement that it meet its maximum airflow with an ESP

10 of .2 inches, meaning, it's rated -- at the rated outdoor

11 airflow rate, it still can stand up to .2 inches of ESP?

12 MR. WESTPHALEN: Well, just speaking to why the

13 rated outdoor airflow rate is in there, the ESP, by

14 itself, doesn't necessarily tell the whole story.

15 MR. SACHS: I'm sorry. What I'm trying to

16 drive at, I've been clumsy in my wording, is I want item

17 3 to be part of the definition, but I am not asking that

18 that fan penalty be added to the EER rating now used.

19 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah --

20 MR. SACHS: That's what I'm trying to get at.

21 MR. WHITWELL: -- but it would have to deliver

22 the rated airflow at --

23 MR. SACHS: Right, right.

24 MR. WHITWELL: -- at two inches external

25 static.
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1 MR. SACHS: But that's not part of the EER

2 until we migrate to an IEER.

3 MR. WHITWELL: Right. Okay.

4 Yeah, so exactly the way Detlef has it written

5 up there. That's what you want, yep.

6 MR. WESTPHALEN: Well, thinking about it, I

7 wonder if Harvey has a point that if you're rating it in

8 free blow, you've got more rated airflow than it

9 necessarily will be able to move when it's operating

10 against .2.

11 MR. WHITWELL: But you have options -- motor

12 options that would allow it to run at least two inches of

13 static of the rated airflow, right?

14 I mean, there -- these -- I have to check to

15 see if it could do this, but I think the concept is good. 

16 We just would have to look and see if with the motor

17 options we could still meet the two-tenths of an inch

18 external static pressure with an optional motor and the

19 rated airflow.

20 Because, I think, Harvey, you're suggesting it

21 could be with an optional motor to get there?

22 MR. SACHS: I think you're giving me too much

23 credit. What I'm trying to do is to disturb the EER test

24 as little as possible as long as we're rating it on EER.

25 And I think I have to leave it to you and Detlef to
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1 figure out how to do that so we have a product which --

2 whose testing and certification costs don't overwhelm its

3 value.

4 MR. STARR: This is Louis with NEEA. I would

5 suggest that you maybe look at the fan curve to see how

6 that would effect the flow and things with the static

7 pressure to see --

8 MR. WHITWELL: We're not going to do that

9 today.

10 (Laughter.)

11 MR. WESTPHALEN: Okay. So I think we're done

12 with this. Bob and I will discuss over lunch.

13 Do we want to stop there at --

14 MR. RAMIREZ: Thanks, Detlef.

15 All right. So Detlef and Bob have been

16 voluntold to take another draft at the --

17 MR. WHITWELL: Sorry, sorry for interrupting.

18 But Detlef, can we do it maybe immediately after the

19 meeting today rather than at lunch?

20 MR. WESTPHALEN: Oh, sure. Sure.

21 MR. WHITWELL: I think maybe we have some other

22 things we need to talk about at lunch.

23 MR. WESTPHALEN: That's fine.

24 MR. WHITWELL: Okay. Thanks.

25 MR. RAMIREZ: All right. So then we'll just
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1 throw that onto the agenda for the morning, then?

2 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah.

3 MR. RAMIREZ: Then 2:00 o'clock? It's 1:30.

4 Well, it's -- I think it's 12:30? Oh, I see. Okay. 2:00

5 o'clock return. You all good with that?

6 MR. SACHS: 2:00 o'clock start would be better

7 than --

8 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. You got it. All right.

9 We'll start up at 2:00 o'clock. Thank you.

10 (Lunch recess was taken.)

11 MR. BANTLE: Okay. Looks like we have everyone

12 back in the room. It's a little after 2:00, but great

13 job getting back. Ted Bantle with FMCS.

14 Any comments or questions from -- on the

15 dual-ducts or anything else we discussed before lunch

16 before we pass it back to Detlef?

17 MS. MEYERS: Well, this is Karen with Rheem.

18 And I just wanted to put out there, A: Are we going to

19 be able to get a copy of that language?

20 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yeah. So this is John from

21 DOE. So when he's done today, he sends the transcript

22 off, and the court reporter's going to clip out the

23 language and e-mail it to me. Eric and I are going to

24 review it tonight to make sure that the language is going

25 to be exactly what's going to be in the final transcript
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1 that you'll see in days or weeks. And then we will

2 disseminate that tomorrow. That's the plan.

3 MS. MEYERS: Well --

4 MR. STAS: And one little correction. I had

5 one word misspoken. When I gave the example for the

6 phased-in standards, I said "dishwashers." I meant to

7 say "clothes washers." So it will say "dishwashers" in

8 there, but this is now in the transcript correcting it.

9 MS. MEYERS: Okay. Thank you.

10 So the industry has been caucusing for weeks on

11 a possible proposal that we could put to the group. We've

12 been waiting on, you know, some type of response to the

13 legal questions. So we need that really before we can,

14 you know, go forward. So thank you for trying to get

15 that out tonight.

16 But, you know, based upon some of the

17 information we've heard this morning which, you know,

18 from our point of view was a little disconcerting, we're

19 going to go back and take another look at what we were

20 thinking about putting out on the table.

21 We think we really need to go through this

22 next, the shipment analysis and the INPV and everything

23 like that and then get that language. And I think that

24 may cause us to make a few tweaks in what the proposal

25 was that the industry really wants to put out on the
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1 table.

2 So I just -- I mean, everyone's kind of

3 wondering about all of that. And so I just wanted to,

4 you know, give the entire working group kind of an update

5 on what the industry -- where the industry is at. So you

6 know, so hopefully if we can get that out tonight then,

7 you know, perhaps we can get you something out in the

8 morning.

9 But, you know, we are -- we are very anxious to

10 also get this since we're running out of daylight really

11 quickly on this issue to get something moving forward. So

12 that's where the industry's at.

13 MR. deLASKI: Karen, this is Andrew. Thank you

14 for that. And thank you -- I'm glad to hear you guys

15 have been working on developing a proposal.

16 So you know, I think for advancing the

17 conversations, we've all got to put some proposals on the

18 table. So the fact that you guys have some creative

19 thoughts -- at least what I presume will be some creative

20 thoughts given some of the ideas that have been proposed

21 to the Department -- as potential legal pathways.

22 I'm wondering, you know, we did designate this

23 meeting as a meeting in which we would get some -- start

24 talking about potential outcomes, potential positions and

25 levels. So I think, you know, getting to that tomorrow
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1 is essential.

2 I'm wondering -- I mean, what if -- I mean,

3 Eric's statement wasn't very long, and we certainly could

4 -- you guys are going to have a hard copy tomorrow. I

5 guess I'm asking, what's the barrier to being able to

6 present your proposal? What's the potential barrier?

7 I know you're not -- because you're suggesting

8 you may be able to put one out tomorrow, but you're not

9 so sure, so --

10 MS. MEYERS: But we really want to go through

11 the shipment analysis and the INPV, based upon what we

12 saw in the engineering analysis. And then, you know,

13 quite frankly, I want some other attorneys from our side

14 to take a look at the statement that Eric made and just

15 make sure that, you know, we're all in sync and we have a

16 clear understanding of what the Department has stated.

17 So it's a check -- it's a check and balance

18 thing. So that's just, you know, we just don't want to

19 put something out there and find out maybe we didn't

20 understand something quite as clearly as we thought we

21 did.

22 MR. deLASKI: Sure. Okay. Fair enough.

23 MR. RAMIREZ: So just procedurally, to see

24 about trying to use the time as most effectively as

25 possible, I think we're scheduled for 8:00 o'clock start
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1 tomorrow, correct?

2 Would you need a little bit more time in the

3 morning so that we could possibly have something, even if

4 we start a little bit later, but we start off with a --

5 an actual proposal?

6 MS. HOOTMAN: So I guess it depends on how late

7 or when we get the thing from legal and that we can talk

8 to our attorneys. I guess if, you know, I don't have it

9 in my inbox until 8:00 in the morning or 7:00 in the

10 morning, you know, it gets a little hard. So --

11 MR. deLASKI: I mean, I thought the statement

12 was really straightforward. So I'm kind of perplexed as

13 to what you're -- I understand your lawyers don't think

14 it's straightforward until they see it, right?

15 MS. HOOTMAN: That's exactly right, Andrew.

16 It's just getting it to them, you know.

17 MR. deLASKI: I understand. I'm just

18 wondering, like, Eric, if you read it slowly, can we just

19 type it out as you read it? It was only three or four

20 sentences.

21 MALE SPEAKER: We didn't know that it was going

22 to be a statement and that we were not going to be able

23 to copy it. And that's --

24 MR. STAS: If the group would like me to reread

25 the statement and slowly, I can do that.
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1 MR. deLASKI: I'm just trying to move things

2 along, so if it really is just a matter of getting things

3 into the lawyer's hands, just read it slowly and, I mean,

4 we can type it.

5 MR. DOPPEL: Can we record it as you read it?

6 MR. deLASKI: Oh, interesting question.

7 MALE SPEAKER: It's being recorded already.

8 MR. DOPPEL: Well, but I mean, so we can play

9 it back.

10 MR. deLASKI: You're supposed to ask for

11 forgiveness, not permission.

12 MR. STAS: Well, I don't really sound very good

13 on tape. So why don't I -- shall I read it again? Would

14 that help everyone?

15 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. Eric, really,

16 seriously slowly because I think a number of us will try

17 to write it down.

18 MR. CYMBALSKY: We're going to see if he's got

19 a good Smartphone.

20 MALE SPEAKER: You mean if I'm smart with my

21 good phone.

22 MR. CYMBALSKY: There are more smartphones than

23 smart people; I've made the statement before.

24 MR. STAS: Okay. Members of the Working Group

25 have raised certain questions about how the Department
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1 might react if presented with a consensus recommendation

2 to adopt regulations that might include multiple metrics,

3 use of both a performance standard and a design standard,

4 phased-in standards, and alternative compliance dates.

5 While we would, of course, consider any

6 consensus recommendation on its merits and, therefore,

7 can't predict how the Department would respond to a

8 particular recommendation, we think all of these

9 approaches merit continued discussion and encourage the

10 Working Group to negotiate a consensus recommendation. As

11 previously noted, DOE has used similar approaches in each

12 of these areas when regulating pursuant to its direct

13 final rule authority.

14 As you know, for residential central air

15 conditioners, we adopted a dual metric, both SEER and

16 EER, and for clothes washers, we adopted a phased-in

17 standard. We encourage the Working Group to negotiate a

18 consensus recommendation, including one that may use any

19 or all of the concepts suggested in the questions. If

20 that occurs and that recommendation is adopted by the

21 full ASRAC Committee and presented to DOE, one option the

22 agency would consider is exercising its direct final rule

23 authority, pursuant to 42 USC 6295(p)(4).

24 MR. deLASKI: Thanks, Eric. Hopefully that

25 will expedite legal review.
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1 MR. RAMIREZ: So with that in mind, what do you

2 all think as far as timing for tomorrow?

3 MS. MEYERS: Well, just -- I'll suggest we

4 start at 9:00.

5 MR. RAMIREZ: Everyone okay with that?

6 All right. I don't --

7 MR. SACHS: The other way to -- this is Harvey.

8 The other way to parse that would say: How quickly can

9 we finish up with the shipments analysis so you guys can

10 work on getting the transcript started so their guys can

11 look at the --

12 MR. CYMBALSKY: So I think what we just did

13 hopefully is in lieu of the longer process, right?

14 MR. SACHS: Everybody happy?

15 MR. CYMBALSKY: I think you hopefully got what

16 you needed from the seven-minute --

17 MR. SACHS: Well, I'm happy to sleep in and

18 come at 9:00.

19 MR. CYMBALSKY: As am I.

20 MR. RAMIREZ: All right. So then we'll start

21 tomorrow at 9:00 o'clock.

22 MR. CYMBALSKY: And it is not in this room. So

23 just, you know, 1E-245 is the room number. So basically

24 it's right below us, but on the first floor. So you

25 don't have to get in the elevator.
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1 MALE SPEAKER: 1E-245?

2 MR. CYMBALSKY: Right. It's just below us on

3 the first floor tomorrow. So 9:00 o'clock, not 8:00.

4 MR. deLASKI: So this is Andrew. Just raising

5 that, I think our stop time tomorrow is 3:00. And I know

6 that I, for one, have a flight, and these others have

7 flights, too. So that's a firm stop from my perspective.

8 And I don't know how much time we're going to need this

9 afternoon to go through the remaining material, and just

10 wondering a bit, is, is if -- do you need that caucus

11 time tomorrow morning or is time this afternoon

12 sufficient to potentially meet your caucus needs? Or do

13 you need time in the morning? In other words, you won't

14 be able to move that caucus time to this afternoon if --

15 MR. THARP: Andrew, Rusty Tharp from Goodman.

16 I'm looking to have some conversation with some internal

17 counsel and would need this afternoon to have that

18 discussion.

19 MR. deLASKI: And then get back with your

20 colleagues tomorrow?

21 MR. THARP: (Inaudible) caucus in the morning.

22 MR. deLASKI: Okay. Fair enough.

23 MR. BANTLE: Okay. I think we'll pass it back

24 to Detlef for your final slide, and then we can move on

25 to shipments.
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1 MR. WESTPHALEN: This might be quick. So last

2 time I started the discussion about the IEER

3 differentials between the no heat, electric heat units

4 which are the basis of the efficiency level values that

5 we used for the analysis and the products with gas heat

6 or the heat pumps. And we had done -- Navigant had done

7 some review of ratings, and we sent out some information

8 at the end of that week. So that was Friday a week ago.

9 And so I just wanted to summarize. The data

10 review averages are the last column in this table. And

11 the first two columns are the ASHRAE 90.1 before January

12 1st, 2016 -- as of January 1st, 2016. Since then, I

13 guess Jim del Toro of Carrier requested that we provide

14 the component wattage profile spreadsheets with the

15 calculated IEER values with the degradations and

16 interpolations, et cetera. And we provided that for the

17 seven-and-a-half and 15-ton this morning.

18 And there was potentially a question of what

19 would we do about the 30-ton analyses in order to provide

20 that for the working group. And I think the objective

21 there was to be able to -- on the fly -- look at

22 different levels of indoor fan power to see how that

23 might affect the IEER level to conjecture if there was an

24 additional amount of fan power associated with gas heat,

25 for instance. What kind of an IEER differential would
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1 that really entail?

2 So these numbers are here just for information,

3 but that issue about the 30-ton certainly is something

4 that I just want to be responsive to if there's a way we

5 can move forward with that or if that's something that is

6 still of interest in order to provide to the group.

7 MR. RAMIREZ: Detlef, I'm going to ask you to

8 repeat that because I think maybe some folks are probably

9 still finishing up some of the other stuff. So I wanted

10 to make sure that that offer didn't go unnoticed.

11 MR. WESTPHALEN: Okay. So the question is, you

12 know, this morning I provided the component wattage

13 profile spreadsheets with calculations embedded for

14 seven-and-a-half and 15 tons.

15 And for 30-ton, we're reluctant to release that

16 unless the manufacturers whose units are involved are

17 okay with releasing that to the group. And that's

18 something that, you know, we perhaps don't have to

19 resolve right here before we move on to the rest of the

20 material for today, but maybe we can table it and discuss

21 it offline and come back to it tomorrow.

22 MR. deLASKI: This is Andrew, Detlef. And I

23 may have lost the thread here, but -- I have lost the

24 thread. What are folks using the embedded wattage profile

25 for? Is it related to this, or are you doing it for a
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1 different question?

2 MR. WESTPHALEN: It's related because Jim at

3 Carrier wanted to use that to try to make conjectures

4 about, suppose I put in a gas furnace, and my indoor fan

5 uses X amount additional power, what does that do to my

6 IEER? And to have those example units on hand in order

7 to directly do those calculations.

8 MR. deLASKI: I guess, the question is for you

9 guys.

10 MR. WHITWELL: Right. So Andrew, what it was

11 is taking the unit designs that have been used in the

12 engineering analysis and look at, okay... If we have a

13 -- put a gas heat, you know, gas furnace in there, what

14 would we expect to see in terms of any change in the fan

15 power, right, for those various designs? And what that

16 impact would be on the overall efficiency of the

17 equipment to see if we can come up with some good way --

18 analytical way to say, "Is it two-tenths or is it more?"

19 There was a suggestion at the last meeting that

20 as we get up into the higher levels, maybe it needs to be

21 more than two-tenths. And so this would be an attempt to

22 take a look, analyze that, and do some engineering

23 analysis on it to determine what is the right number.

24 MR. deLASKI: So where we stand right now is

25 you have what you requested for the seven-and-a-half and
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1 15?

2 MR. WHITWELL: We have the 15 and the -- the

3 seven-and-a-half and the 15. So the question is on the

4 30-ton, whether we provide that.

5 Now, an alternative to that, Detlef, would be

6 if Jim were to do the analysis on the seven-and-a-half

7 and the 15 and then provide that to you, and then you

8 could take the 30-ton data and do a similar analysis, I

9 guess, is another way to do it.

10 MR. WESTPHALEN: Oh, yeah, yeah. If there's an

11 agreement of what the increased wattages would be or

12 increased, you know, pressure drop because --

13 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, I think this approach was

14 --

15 MR. WESTPHALEN: -- we can take that back to

16 the fan curves and redo the calculations.

17 MR. WHITWELL: That was the approach. So I

18 think the approach would be putting in what we think the

19 additional pressure drop would be for the furnace on the

20 30-ton. And then you can do that analysis, or even look

21 at it for a span of pressure drops, right?

22 MR. WESTPHALEN: Yeah. Yeah.

23 MR. WHITWELL: Right? A range.

24 MS. HOOTMAN: And I'm okay with releasing the

25 data on the 30 tons.
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1 MR. WHITWELL: So if we release the data, where

2 would it go?

3 MS. HOOTMAN: He's one of them, and so is he.

4 MR. WESTPHALEN: Well, we would release it to

5 the same e-mail group, you know.

6 MS. HOOTMAN: Like you did on the

7 seven-and-a-half and the 15?

8 MR. WHITWELL: So this -- this group.

9 MALE SPEAKER: Well, that's public record.

10 MS. HOOTMAN: But you already have the

11 seven-and-a-half and 15.

12 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, the seven and 15, it's out

13 -- its already been --

14 MS. HOOTMAN: That's what I'm saying. So I

15 don't -- you were asking whether you can release the

16 30-ton stuff, and I'm like, you already have the

17 seven-and-a-half and 15, so you might as well put the

18 30-ton in there.

19 MR. WESTPHALEN: You know, I have the

20 spreadsheet ready to send if everybody's okay with my

21 sending it to the group.

22 MR. WHITWELL: I'm okay.

23 MR. STARR: So this is Louis. I'm trying to

24 Understand, how does this affect the analysis? This is,

25 on the heat side, the fact the additional, as you
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1 mention, for efficiency heat exchange you would have more

2 pressure drop. Is that what you're getting at? Or does

3 this have to do with changing, what is it going to change

4 on the 30-ton analysis?

5 MR. WESTPHALEN: Well, if you have a unit that

6 has a gas furnace in it, there's more pressure drop on

7 the internal air side, so there's a little bit more fan

8 power. So -- and that -- that's -- that's why there are

9 these differentials in, say, the 90.1 standard.

10 MR. STARR: So I mean, but isn't that taken

11 care of in the thousand and 33 buildings? Is that -- the

12 energy use, or are you talking about in the equipment

13 modeling?

14 MR. WESTPHALEN: I'm talking about in terms of

15 what standard IEER would be.

16 MR. STARR: Okay. You're talking about the

17 equipment modeling side?

18 MR. WESTPHALEN: Yeah.

19 MR. STARR: Okay.

20 MR. SACHS: (Inaudible.) I know I did not ask

21 you (inaudible).

22 MR. WESTPHALEN: Yeah. Unfortunately, I didn't

23 bring the spreadsheets that I sent around the other

24 Friday. But we, you know, looked at the AHRI ratings of

25 IEER for the electric heat or no-heat units, and the
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1 corresponding gas heat units. And then, also, the

2 corresponding heat pumps, and then looked at the

3 differentials in IEER between those sets of pairs. And

4 in order to get an understanding of how much lower IEER

5 would you have for a gas heat unit, for instance, than

6 electric heat.

7 MR. SACHS: So this is Harvey again. And I

8 guess the question that comes up then, is: If I look at

9 the ASHRAE 90.1 as of 1/1/16 versus the data review,

10 there are some major differences.

11 MR. deLASKI: I think the point -- the

12 discussion we had last time -- this is Andrew -- Bob teed

13 it up last time. The case that you made, as I understood

14 it, is as the efficiency goes up -- as IEER goes up --

15 you may see this relationship change. Right?

16 MR. WHITWELL: Actually, it would speed up the

17 process.

18 MR. deLASKI: And that's what you're

19 Investigating, right? So we should see what the results

20 of that investigation turn up, and it may be -- it's a

21 different question than what's being asked here.

22 MR. WHITWELL: Bob Whitwell, Carrier. One of

23 the issues, the data review, those are ratings, right?

24 And ratings -- ratings are going to reflect different --

25 there's different things that go into the ratings, right?
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1 For example, the ASHRAE 90.1 and DOE standards

2 before that were two-tenths. So that's going to skew

3 what the ratings are going to be, right? So what we want

4 to do is look at -- do some analysis to determine what

5 the impact of the additional pressure drop would actually

6 be, predict what that actually would be, and then see

7 what the impact would be on real performance, as opposed

8 to looking at ratings.

9 MR. WESTPHALEN: So it sounds like the

10 manufacturers involved with those 30-ton analyses are

11 okay with my distributing that spreadsheet.

12 MR. WHITWELL: Well, I think we've got to get

13 all -- I think there's more than -- there's three

14 involved, right? I don't know if we have all three.

15 MR. WESTPHALEN: I think they're all here.

16 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah.

17 MALE SPEAKER: (Laughter.) What did you just

18 buy? (Simultaneous speaking.)

19 MS. HOOTMAN: So Rusty -- they want --

20 MR. THARP: Anything for you, Andrew.

21 MS. HOOTMAN: Rusty, they want to know if they

22 can release the 30-ton information which is basically the

23 three of us. Are you okay with it?

24 MR. WESTPHALEN: No, it's not Rusty.

25 MS. HOOTMAN: It is. It's his company.
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1 MR. WESTPHALEN: Well, it's his company, yeah.

2 MS. HOOTMAN: It's his company, and he's here

3 representing that part of the company.

4 MR. WESTPHALEN: Okay. He's -- he's -- yeah,

5 all right.

6 MR. CYMBALSKY: I'm glad you didn't disclose

7 who gave you the data.

8 MS. HOOTMAN: Well, it's pretty obvious.

9 MR. WESTPHALEN: No, wait a minute. I'm

10 confused here. No, it isn't Rusty's company.

11 MR. THARP: It's my sister's company.

12 MALE SPEAKER: If it was Rusty's company, he's

13 taking me to dinner, and I don't care what the rules are.

14 MR. WESTPHALEN: It was Lennox was the --

15 MS. HOOTMAN: Anyway, I'm okay. But --

16 MR. deLASKI: Even if you guys want to release

17 it today, you're going to do the analysis for the

18 seven-and-a-half and for the 15. You can do the analysis

19 that he's setting up.

20 MR. WESTPHALEN: We can do the analysis for the

21 30 if we don't have unanimous consensus that I should

22 release it.

23 MR. RAMIREZ: So was there any understanding of

24 this information not being divulged? Is it --

25 MR. WHITWELL: Yes, maybe a suggestion --
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1 MR. RAMIREZ: Can I make a suggestion then? 

2 Can we briefly just go off the record and see if we can't

3 clarify this? Because if there was a concern with

4 identifying parties or anything --

5 MR. WESTPHALEN: Well, we have an alternative

6 way of dealing with it if everybody's happy with that.

7 You know, if we're given the additional pressure drops,

8 then we could do the calculations on the additional fan

9 power the way we've been doing them for the rest of the

10 analyses like for the additional pressure drop.

11 MR. RAMIREZ: Does that work as an alternative?

12 MR. WHITWELL: I think that works. So Detlef,

13 I mean, I can send Jim an e-mail and ask him to put

14 together estimates for -- or a range of pressure drops we

15 should be looking at for the 30-ton furnace, right, at

16 least, you know, a starting point. And, you know, if

17 other manufacturers have some different data, then I

18 think it's a fairly easy thing to adjust once you set it

19 up, right?

20 MR. WESTPHALEN: Right, right. Yeah. So okay.

21 So maybe some time in the next couple days -- I don't

22 know if you want -- you would like that information to be

23 put in front of the rest of the group before I -- before

24 we start calculating.

25 MR. WHITWELL: I think you can go ahead and
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1 start calculating, right? I mean --

2 MR. WESTPHALEN: Well, we can start calculating

3 and then -- all right. I think that covers that topic.

4 MR. CYMBALSKY: So just -- I think we just --

5 if, Detlef, you could summarize exactly based on what's

6 going to happen here with this new data. What exactly

7 does the group expect to see different? IEER values

8 across the board?

9 MR. WESTPHALEN: Yeah, so I guess I will be

10 receiving, from Carrier, suggestions of the pressure

11 drops associated with the furnaces for the 30-ton units.

12 We will then recalculate the fan input powers for the

13 30-ton units that were analyzed based on, you know, maybe

14 it will be a scenario of a high or a low pressure drop.

15 But whatever that is, and that will then show the impact

16 on the IEER for that representative additional pressure

17 drop of the furnace.

18 So attempting to, essentially for these other

19 heat categories that we have listed here for the very

20 large, looking at the .2, .2, .18, trying to come up with

21 an alternative way of calculating that.

22 MR. CYMBALSKY: So it's just for the very large

23 units we're talking about?

24 MR. WESTPHALEN: That's right, and I think --

25 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay.
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1 MR. WESTPHALEN: -- the intent was that Jim del

2 Toro was going to do that calculation for the

3 seven-and-a-half and 15.

4 Okay. On to new issues.

5 MS. COUGHLIN: So since we've been through

6 these, I'll skip to shipments. So we received the data

7 from AHRI last Wednesday. We really didn't have a lot of

8 time to process it. And this is -- so the next three

9 slides show our old shipments graph with the new data,

10 these two red dots, and --

11 MR. RAMIREZ: I'm sorry, just one second. Is

12 everyone -- slide 49? Okay.

13 MS. COUGHLIN: Yeah, slide 49. So the model

14 has not been modified, the total shipments model has not

15 been modified because we were not really certain how to

16 interpret the -- the numbers that we have here.

17 I know that the numbers that have been

18 submitted don't cover the full market, but we don't have

19 the information needed to scale them to the full market,

20 so it didn't seem realistic to take those as actually

21 representative of total shipments in 2011 and 2014.

22 So we have the same sort of issue. This is the

23 seven-and-a-half, here's the 15, and here is the 30. And

24 the 2011 shipments for seven-and-a-half and 15, I think,

25 have no VAV. It's all -- okay.
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1 MR. ROSENQUIST: (Inaudible.) I just wanted to

2 say that the red dots, although they're on the CUAC

3 graph, also include heat pumps. So that was another

4 reason why we were concerned about trying to use that

5 data. We wanted to put this on the graph, though, just

6 to give an indication of how it compares relative to the

7 data that we're already using.

8 MS. COUGHLIN: Right. So you know, this is

9 essentially open for comment. As I said, we didn't end

10 up modeling the -- we didn't end up modifying our model

11 based on these numbers.

12 MR. WHITWELL: So Bob Whitwell from Carrier.

13 This is -- so the numbers there, the blue line that

14 represents units -- straight cooling units, heat pumps,

15 and units with gas heat or other heat or what is -- what

16 exactly is that?

17 MS. COUGHLIN: No, the blue line is --

18 MR. ROSENQUIST: It's all --

19 MS. COUGHLIN: Okay. This is all units, yes.

20 MR. WHITWELL: And then the red dots are what?

21 MS. COUGHLIN: So the red dots were the

22 shipments data that we received on Wednesday, the new

23 data for 2011 and 2014.

24 And again, I mean, we're trying -- the

25 intention of the graph is to represent the full market. 
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1 And we know that the red dots don't represent the full

2 market, but we don't actually know what fraction of the

3 market they do represent. So we just put this up for

4 informational purposes. That's our understanding,

5 anyway.

6 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yeah. And just more

7 information for you. So the data -- yeah, so the data

8 through 1999 was what was submitted by AHRI back for the

9 last time we did an analysis for a rule making back in

10 2004.

11 So we -- I would say the data up through 1999

12 is solid, right? From 2000 to 2009, that data is derived

13 from Census -- Census data. So that probably has some

14 uncertainty with it, which I was thinking, personally,

15 was probably on the range of 5, maybe 10 percent.

16 So again, that's why we were so -- you know,

17 surprised to see how low those numbers were because, you

18 know, we thought -- at least up through 1999, we knew we

19 had solid data, and then in the Census, we thought could

20 not be that far off.

21 Another thing to add, that -- I know this data

22 is supposed to represent seven of nine large

23 manufacturers. Again, you know, we do know the rough

24 market share of each manufacturer. So if you would

25 identify the manufacturers that were the seven or -- or
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1 maybe even more of the manufacturers -- well, yeah, the

2 manufacturers who are in the seven, I think we can

3 probably do some scaling. But I think that would

4 probably get into areas that you would be uncomfortable

5 with providing.

6 MR. deLASKI: The other question I – that

7 occurs to me is: Do we know that for each of the size

8 ranges, that all seven submitted data?

9 MR. MISLAK: Yeah. I mean, the data that was

10 submitted includes all the different categories that were

11 analyzed in the NOPR. But, I mean, keep in mind, too,

12 that there are categories where that weren't enough

13 manufacturers reporting data such that we could share

14 data. So there's areas where there could be some volume,

15 but due to confidentiality, we couldn't provide numbers.

16 MR. WHITWELL: So when you can't provide

17 numbers --

18 MR. MISLAK: Then that's --

19 MR. deLASKI: At zero, basically.

20 MR. MISLAK: Then the column receives an

21 Asterisk. It's ruled out so the manufacturer(s) remains

22 confidential.

23 MR. deLASKI: Do you guys see that? Did the

24 consultant see what was zeroed out?

25 MS. HOOTMAN: No.
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1 MR. deLASKI: So no one knows. I see.

2 MS. HOOTMAN: So that's what I'm saying, they

3 see what is zeroed out or what is asterisked because

4 there's manufacturers who have that, but not enough to

5 report because in a public record you would understand

6 what market share it is.

7 So no, we did not share anything that was

8 asterisked out from AHRI to LBNL. You can only know that

9 there is somebody there, but you don't know how much.

10 MR. WHITWELL: So it was asterisked if there

11 were less than three manufacturers that have volume

12 there. It was shown as an asterisk as opposed to a dash

13 or a zero.

14 MR. CYMBALSKY: So I mean --

15 MR. WHITWELL: So yes, they could tell where

16 there was volume, but there were not enough manufacturers

17 that we could report it.

18 MR. CYMBALSKY: Right. And it doesn't mean low

19 volume. It just means low number of reported

20 manufacturers. It could be a lot of volume?

21 MS. HOOTMAN: It could be a lot, or it could be

22 Less. You don't know exactly.

23 MR. CYMBALSKY: We don't know. So you really

24 can't infer anything from an asterisk other than --

25 MR. deLASKI: Right. And we don't know --
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1 MR. CYMBALSKY: -- there's less than three

2 manufacturers who submitted data.

3 MR. deLASKI: We don't know whether it was a

4 manufacturer that didn't participate or some

5 manufacturers chose not to fully fill out the form --

6 fill out the survey. In either case, you would have --

7 the triggering factor is less than three, right?

8 MS. HOOTMAN: Right, and so there could be only

9 two people having models there, and so they only have --

10 two manufacturers literally only have models there, and

11 two gave the data, but two can't be exposed.

12 MR. deLASKI: I guess where I'm driving at with

13 this is, if you -- if the manufacturers were to tell the

14 consultants that seven manufacturers -- who the seven

15 manufacturers are, it doesn't necessarily -- you don't

16 know that all seven filled it out completely. Or did

17 they? I mean, can we answer that question? We can't.

18 MR. CYMBALSKY: Well, I think -- let's peel

19 back. I think where --

20 MR. MISLAK: I mean, from our standpoint, we

21 received the data from all seven manufacturers, you know.

22 And we're assuming that all the manufacturers took the

23 time to fill the sheets out properly because, you know,

24 we had volume where they had volume reported. But, you

25 know, when it's sent to our department to aggregate it,
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1 they take the data, and then they process it to make sure

2 everybody that has less than three remains confidential.

3 So whether or not a cell was skipped, if that's

4 what you're asking, or if they filled it our properly, we

5 don't know. We have to leave that up to the

6 manufacturers reporting. Does that answer your question?

7 MR. deLASKI: It does, and the only check is

8 the manufacturers care, right? There's no check is my

9 point.

10 MR. MISLAK: Yeah, I mean, it's advantageous to

11 them to provide the correct data. So I mean --

12 MS. MEYERS: This is Karen with Rheem. I'll be

13 happy to answer for my company. We filled out the form

14 completely, so --

15 MR. WINNINGHAM: As we did. So you've got --

16 MS. MEYERS: Where we had applicable products,

17 we provided volume. So I don't -- you know -- I don't

18 know.

19 MR. CYMBALSKY: So this is John from DOE. So

20 in the beginning of the meeting, I guess I made a

21 statement that I said, I guess, what I thought was more

22 important use of this -- these data were, you know, the

23 market shares by efficiency. So the percentages, not

24 necessarily the volume -- total volume, in my mind,

25 right? Because that's -- again, at that point, you're
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1 just scaling national energy savings up and down.

2 You're still getting the right magnitude

3 between the ELs and TSLs, which I think is the more

4 important -- locking in the IEER, to me, is what's

5 important. Whether it says it's five quads, 10 quads, 15

6 quads. Those are --

7 FEMALE SPEAKER: 20 quads.

8 MR. CYMBALSKY: 20, you know, I guess we're up

9 to 20 now. You know, that's great, and I like the big

10 numbers, but I think the real important policy decision

11 that we're wrangling with is, you know, the TSL level.

12 So again, if these numbers are scaled up or

13 down, all of them get scaled up and down. Again, there

14 will be some -- the MIA takes the volumes, and that's

15 important there. But -- but, again, the manufacturers

16 here at the table, they know what the impact on their

17 company's going to be, I assume. So it's not that I'm

18 less concerned about that, but I -- when you go to

19 negotiate, you know that answer. I hope you're not

20 relying on our guys to tell you what's going to happen to

21 your company at certain TSL choices.

22 So while these data are, you know, they're two

23 red dots. But I think being able to get that efficiency

24 level data, I think was -- for the analysis, I think was

25 much more important than these two sort of total dots on
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1 the page, in my mind.

2 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. I think it goes

3 without saying that we all appreciate the work the

4 manufacturers and AHRI went to to provide the data for

5 purposes such as you suggest, John.

6 MALE SPEAKER: And, you know, the earlier

7 tables showed how much those percentages moved around. 

8 You know, we went from, I think, zero to 40 percent,

9 right, in one of the categories for EL 3 and above. I

10 think that's what I remember, right?

11 So that's -- I mean, that's huge. I mean,

12 that's a big impact on the analysis.

13 MS. COUGHLIN: Yes. And we're actually -- it's

14 not in the slides today, but we're still processing the

15 information regarding the efficiency distribution for the

16 projection in the shipments model. And yeah, so -- so

17 yeah. So again, so we did not make any modifications to

18 total shipments, and I'm -- I think it's probably fine

19 the way it is. And then, you know, we can potentially

20 worry about some of this as we go to the completion of

21 the analysis.

22 So I guess -- will we move on to the next? So

23 we did rerun the shipments model with the new LCC

24 results. That's the main thing. So we have the new

25 distribution of conversion curbs in the population and
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1 the new base-case efficiency distribution as well. And

2 the LCC results, because they affect the product cost and

3 product operating cost in the average, do affect the

4 shipments projections.

5 So these are the new shipments projections in

6 the -- again, this graph just shows the shipments drop.

7 And then, we have the table that you requested here. So

8 it provides for each of the product subclasses. So CUAC

9 and CUHP by EL, you have the shipments to the three

10 different channels that we defined. So there's the new

11 construction, the new shipments to existing buildings,

12 and the replacement shipments.

13 I think -- so essentially you can see the --

14 there is some elasticity in the new shipments to existing

15 buildings and in the replacement market due to this

16 repair/replace decision, and then the new construction is

17 inelastic. And then the bar graphs are reproduced here,

18 the same format that we had last time.

19 And then the final slide in the section just

20 gives us the, again, the percentage reductions and total

21 shipments for different product classes for the new LCC

22 data.

23 MR. WINNINGHAM: Question on this graph. Are

24 those drop in shipments individual or cumulative as they

25 -- as they go down?
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1 MS. COUGHLIN: Yeah, this is the drop in the

2 cumulative shipments over the whole analysis period. It

3 tends to be fairly -- you know, the way those graphs

4 work, it drops, and then it stays parallel. So it's

5 pretty close to the annual drop, as well.

6 MS. HOOTMAN: Okay. But maybe I'm not

7 understanding. Clarifying, so are you saying that if

8 somebody went from an EL 1 to an EL 2, it's four plus

9 seven?

10 MS. COUGHLIN: No.

11 MS. HOOTMAN: Okay.

12 MS. COUGHLIN: So everything is just related

13 back to the base case. So it's 7.6 percent relative to

14 the base case.

15 MS. HOOTMAN: To the base case. Okay. Thank

16 you.

17 MR. STARR: So this is Louis. I have a

18 question. On slide 57, what's the -- it says, "sum of

19 SR, SE and SN." What are those?

20 MS. COUGHLIN: Those are shipments to the

21 replacement market, shipments to existing buildings, and

22 shipments to new construction.

23 MR. STARR: Oh, okay.

24 MR. deLASKI: Okay. This is Andrew. Would you

25 mind going back to slide 49? I'm sorry. Not necessarily
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1 that one; the one that was revised shipments and

2 analysis. I meant to say 52.

3 MS. COUGHLIN: This one?

4 MR. deLASKI: Yeah. So I understand your

5 method here -- I think I understand it. I mean, we

6 talked about it last time. It's driven largely by the

7 elasticity of the demand. We talked about --

8 MS. COUGHLIN: That's right. So essentially,

9 there's a step change in the price of the model when the

10 standard comes in, right, which is why you get that sharp

11 drop. And then over time, that price essentially... that

12 price change remains constant, I think. We don't have a

13 price learning. And then there could be a slight

14 reduction in the elasticity. I don't know if that's

15 implemented in this model.

16 Okay. So essentially, that's why once you've

17 dropped, you just remain more or less parallel to the

18 base-case line. And then there's some small variation

19 because we do have, in addition to the install cost, we

20 have an -- a discounted operating cost in the utility

21 function that represents the sort of decision variable.

22 And the operating cost will change slightly due to the

23 change in electricity price over time. And something

24 happened to our screen.

25 MR. deLASKI: I think we had a discussion -- I
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1 think we had a discussion last time about the uncertainty

2 around this elasticity.

3 MS. COUGHLIN: Yes.

4 MR. deLASKI: And I looked back at this data,

5 and I think it's very helpful to have the historic data

6 shown there. The last standard took effect in 2010.

7 That's what the that parties negotiated, and that was

8 enacted in 2005 and took effect in 2011. And the one

9 before took effect in what year? In '92, it was enacted

10 and took effect in -- what was it? '96?

11 MS. HOOTMAN: '92, I agree, but I don't know if

12 that's -- (inaudible).

13 MR. deLASKI: In the '90s. And I guess what

14 I'm looking at here is, the historic record doesn't

15 suggest that you see that drop when it goes into effect. 

16 So we have two prior standards taking effect. One, in a

17 pretty recent past history, and it didn't show any drop. 

18 So I'm wondering how we square that historic experience

19 with these projections for the future.

20 MS. COUGHLIN: So -- well, I guess, you know --

21 MS. HOOTMAN: I'm seeing a drop, but maybe I'm

22 not seeing what you're seeing, Andrew. There -- I mean,

23 in 2010 I'm seeing a drop from, in this case, what? About

24 20,000 down to around 16,000.

25 MS. COUGHLIN: Right. Yeah, I mean, there is a
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1 change in the driver at the same time, the floor space

2 driver on the new construction. So we would need to

3 factor that out because we had the big crash in the

4 commercial building market. So yeah, I mean, you know --

5 MR. HURST: Would you factor out the increase,

6 also?

7 MS. COUGHLIN: What increase?

8 MR. HURST: There was an increase before the

9 crash. Would you factor that out?

10 MS. COUGHLIN: We didn't factor -- no, so what

11 I'm saying is we haven't factored -- so the driver goes

12 up and down, right? So there's a driver on the shipments

13 model which is tied to floor space, and that is not

14 smooth growth; that has sort of boom and bust cycles, so

15 you see these wiggles in the model due to that, and

16 that's part of what happened in the period from 2008 to

17 2010. It wasn't just the standard coming in.

18 So yeah -- I mean, I think -- you know, there

19 are different viewpoints on whether or not the market is

20 elastic, and it's very difficult to tell from the data,

21 so --

22 MR. deLASKI: So last time we talked about

23 doing a sensitivity. Were you able to implement that, or

24 not yet?

25 MS. COUGHLIN: Yeah, we're working on that.
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1 There's a -- the results are -- it actually -- let's see,

2 I don't want to get too technical. But it's difficult to

3 take the repairs out completely and retain the same

4 accounting conventions, so we have to do some

5 modifications to the spreadsheet to make sure that we

6 compare them correctly. And those are just taking longer

7 than, well, the three days that we had to do them. So

8 we're hoping we'll be done by tomorrow, but I'm not sure

9 that -- but it's not going to be a very large difference.

10 It's -- because the -- when you have no

11 elasticity, you get more energy savings. But the

12 difference is the portion of the market times the change

13 in the base-case projection of the energy use to the

14 standards case projection of the energy use, so it's

15 probably about half the percentage associated with the

16 shipments drop. That's my rough guess, but yeah.

17 MR. SACHS: Katie, turning to a slightly

18 different topic, that is the statement just now that for

19 the future these lines are running parallel. And you've

20 not included any learning curves. And it's in

21 conjunction with some other work that I was doing, I

22 noted that on last -- on the May 21st slide 62, it said,

23 "Producer Price Index, PPI, series for unitary air

24 conditioners except heat pumps expanding 1978 to 2013 was

25 analyzed for forecast future equipment prices. No
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1 discernible long-term decline in cost trend."

2 MS. COUGHLIN: Correct.

3 MR. SACHS: Which could justify the exclusion

4 of any kind of a learning curve?

5 MS. COUGHLIN: Yes -- no, I misspoke. It's not

6 that we didn't do it, it's that it doesn't have an

7 effect. So we always check to see --

8 MR. SACHS: You check. I commend you for that.

9 MS. COUGHLIN: -- to see if the trend is there.

10 MR. SACHS: The remaining intellectually

11 interesting question is: As we shift from EER, which I

12 perceive to be strongly dependent on the amount and

13 quality of the mechanical components to IEER, which has a

14 number of other influences that may not be quite as

15 material-intensive, I certainly would agree that if we

16 had continued on the EER trajectory, learning would have

17 -- well, it would have been expected to be that of mature

18 technology suite dominiums.

19 But I'm not sure that the strategies that will

20 be adopted for IEER-optimized equipment will not lead to

21 some declining prices. I think they will.

22 MR. deLASKI: This is Andrew again. And I want

23 to -- Jill, when I was looking at the map, just

24 responding to your comment, I was looking at the year

25 2010 and, you know, I see a drop in 2008 to 2009 that I
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1 assume was driven by the bottom falling out of the

2 economy.

3 And then in 2010, it looks to me like it's

4 pretty stable. So -- and I'm just reading off the graph,

5 so that's always dangerous.

6 MS. HOOTMAN: I mean, it was stable or flat.

7 MR. deLASKI: Yeah.

8 MS. HOOTMAN: In a very low point.

9 MR. deLASKI: After the economy had tanked and

10 then it was in recovery. So that's what I -- that's when

11 I was looking at the graph, that's what I see. So I

12 don't always see -- I'm having trouble sort of discerning

13 on the graph an effect of the standard in 2010 on

14 shipments.

15 Undoubtedly, there's a -- you know, the market

16 recovered as the economy recovered from the crash from

17 the economy going into the tank. But I don't see sort of

18 the standard putting a break on shipments. Just, you

19 know, it's a lot to untangle what happened to the market

20 at that point in time, lots of different factors going

21 on.

22 MS. MEYERS: So Andrew, this is Karen. Can you

23 repeat what you just said?

24 MR. deLASKI: I'm looking at -- the model here

25 is showing shipments dropping when the standard takes
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1 effect. And I'm looking for: What was the experience

2 when prior standards took effect in 1995 or thereabouts?

3 And I'm forgetting the exact year, and in the year 2010.

4 And I'm not seeing in the line, the impact in shipments

5 that were -- in that -- those two historic situations

6 that I'm seeing projected for the future.

7 And I'm acknowledging that, you know, there's

8 lots of things that may be impacting the market at any

9 given year, you know. It's hard to discern, hard to

10 tease out any one factor. But this one -- but this is a

11 pretty big factor the way -- what's being projected here. 

12 And I'm just struck that it seems to me that it likely

13 overestimates the impact on shipments.

14 MR. HURST: John Hurst from Lennox. You're

15 right, Andrew, it's --

16 MR. SACHS: 2010, 2011?

17 MS. COUGHLIN: No, it's '09, '10.

18 MR. SACHS: This is '09, '10, so we have

19 nothing in data.

20 MS. COUGHLIN: We have those red dots that we

21 were looking at.

22 MR. SACHS: Thank you.

23 MS. COUGHLIN: Yes.

24 MR. HURST: But also, if you look at '95, that

25 was, I believe on the back end of a recession coming out
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1 of '92, '93. So you know, if you can hold the economy

2 constant -- which you can't -- I mean, so we can debate

3 these numbers all day long. But my basic belief is when

4 you raise the price of something, demand goes down.

5 That's Chapter 1, but, you know, we can talk about the

6 effect of the economy all day. I don't think we'll ever

7 be able to tease that piece of it out of it.

8 MR. deLASKI: I agree with what you're saying,

9 and I agree with the basic notion that, you know, that

10 price did effect demand -- levels of demand.

11 What we discussed last time is that in the case

12 of this equipment, where the failure rate or the failure

13 mode is a compressor replacement which costs 80 percent

14 as much as the new product, it's a relatively unusual

15 situation --

16 MR. WINNINGHAM: And I will point out, again,

17 that that 80 percent was not reflected in the numbers.

18 MR. RAMIREZ: Instead of going too far into the

19 weeds here, because -- correct me if I'm wrong -- but are

20 these supposed to be causation or correlation? I don't

21 think that -- I think maybe what it's showing here is

22 more of a correlation.

23 MS. COUGHLIN: It's neither. It's economics.

24 So it's -- in the -- there's a sort of standard way in

25 economics of modeling price elasticity, which is the
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1 response. So again, the kind of textbook picture is if

2 demand is related to price, if the price goes up, demand

3 goes down. And so we are using a standard version of

4 that type of model that lowers the demand for a product

5 proportional to a price increase.

6 So it's -- it's not causal in the sense that

7 you -- you know, you really can't build up a model from

8 the ground up that necessarily shows this behavior. So

9 it would be a correlation analysis, but what people have

10 been pointing out is you would have to factor the

11 background effects of overall economic ups and downs, and

12 there's not generally enough data to do that reliably.

13 MR. CYMBALSKY: I mean, for this product, the

14 way the conversations been going is that -- as I recall

15 it, there's no substitute to the rooftop units, per se. I

16 think they're kind of locked into the rooftop. They're

17 not going to switch to chillers is what I heard, and

18 they're not going to go without.

19 So their only other thing to do is repair and

20 get the extra ten years or whatever it is. So I think

21 the question -- I mean, I struggled with this, too when I

22 first saw the numbers way back when that, based on the

23 fact that this product doesn't seem to have a substitute

24 in the market other than repair is, you know, 10 percent

25 or 11 percent, whatever that high number was, you know,
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1 was the right one.

2 MR. SACHS: John --

3 MR. CYMBALSKY: I don't think we do know that.

4 And as Katie said, I don't think the data presented here

5 give us the clarity now, you know, for the other products

6 that we do this kind of analysis on, there are some

7 substitutes. And there are -- people can do without, for

8 example, a dishwasher. They don't necessarily have to

9 have one. They can wash by hand. But a commercial

10 building can't go without air conditioning. I mean, it's

11 not going to happen.

12 MR. SACHS: But John, that makes -- this is

13 Harvey. And it makes a very important point illustrated

14 by the 2009, 2010 recession from which we've had a slow

15 recovery. Sales of RTUs dropped by less than the 20

16 percent fraction roughly that goes into new construction.

17 New construction dropped by much more than 20 percent.

18 That -- it's -- HVAC is dragged along in damped form to

19 the rise and fall of construction, and that would include

20 retrofits. And I notice that --

21 MR. CYMBALSKY: Well, there's vacancy rates. 

22 You can't overlook that.

23 MR. SACHS: The vacancy rates, right. As the

24 vacancy rates go up, the construction stops, and

25 consequently, you get a fall here. It may affect at the
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1 margin, the EL level that somebody chooses on a

2 replacement, but I think that standards can be readily

3 shown to be a much smaller driver of sales than changes

4 in the economics cycle for office space and other

5 applications.

6 MR. CYMBALSKY: I don't think anyone here would

7 disagree with that. I think -- the other thing I think

8 that was different with this recession, in my mind at

9 least, was that leading up to this, there was a lot of

10 office -- lot of commercial space spec -- built on spec

11 that they didn't actually sign any tenants to before they

12 built the buildings, and they overbuilt a lot relative to

13 recessions we saw in the '90s, for example.

14 And so you're right, there's these relatively

15 new buildings with high vacancy rates that they didn't

16 have to do new construction to make up for the swing back

17 up in the economic activity. So what I'm thinking is

18 they kind of backfilled with the overbuilding, so that's

19 why you didn't see the uptick as significant as maybe in

20 the past. Just a theory, but --

21 MS. HOOTMAN: So John, I think the other thing

22 that you described -- that they won't go without air

23 conditioning -- I think what also happens is, you know,

24 let's say you take an average franchise owner of a

25 McDonald's, or even if it's not quick-serve restaurants,
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1 even if you're talking about maybe an area that has, you

2 know, a bunch of dry-cleaners around an area. When they

3 have to make those decisions and the economic downturn

4 was happening, I think they shut branches. They went

5 without air conditioning. They shut branches. They shut

6 down, you know. They might have gone from 20 down to 11

7 in an area or something like that. So they did, you

8 know, technically go without air, and it became more of

9 that leasable space that then opened up.

10 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yeah, I mean, all this just

11 leads me to believe that, you know, I don't know what to

12 believe. But other than the fact that for better or for

13 worse, we have, you know, this trend line out there based

14 on the different ELs assumed as the standard, at least to

15 me, the direction of each one is correct.

16 I mean, other than that, you can move those

17 lines up and down. But, again, they'd all move relative

18 to each other. Like, I hate to keep coming back to this

19 point, but does it change the relative intervals between

20 the ELs and TSLs that we're going to negotiate around? I

21 don't know.

22 MALE SPEAKER: Any further thoughts on this

23 shipment information?

24 MS. MEYERS: So this is Karen with Rheem. I

25 know you're looking at this on an industry basis, but, I
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1 mean, did you look at companies that have smaller versus

2 larger market share? Because that's of concern to my

3 company. Because I can tell you, my trend line doesn't

4 look anything like this.

5 MS. COUGHLIN: Yeah, I think that that comes in

6 in the MIA, actually, to some extent. But we don't -- in

7 the shipments in NIA, we just treat the industry as an

8 industry. So any discussion of individual types of

9 company goes through the MIA.

10 So should we move to the NIA now? Okay. So

11 moving to slide 60, I have a few slides on just the

12 mechanics of the national impacts analysis. So this is

13 where we estimate the total national energy savings and

14 the consumer impacts over the full analysis period at

15 each of the efficiency levels. And so this is

16 essentially developed out of -- we do these -- we take

17 the shipments; we build up a time-dependent model of the

18 stock, and then we just do some multiplication to get the

19 energy savings. And in each year, we aggregate the cost

20 of the unit and the cost of the energy to run the unit.

21 So if you think about it, the shipments are an

22 input to a stock model, and then in each year, I have a

23 distribution of stock by vintage. And depending on the

24 vintage of the unit, the energy use changes. So there's

25 some variability in the energy cost, and then there's --
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1 in each year, there's also the cost of new shipments. So

2 these are sort of aggregated to give the total costs and

3 benefits to the purchasers of the equipment year by year.

4 And then we sum all that up and discount it, and that

5 gives us the NPV.

6 And we use OMB mandated discount rates in this

7 analysis, 3 percent and 7 percent. So I'm going to go

8 through those steps in more detail.

9 So again, the chevrons here show that the two

10 primary inputs to the national energy savings are the LCC

11 results. So we export the average unit cost and average

12 annual energy use at each efficiency level for each

13 product subclass. And then we take the shipments model,

14 which tell us how many of the models ship under each EL

15 for each product type. And then those come together in

16 the NIA model to determine the energy savings and the

17 dollar value of the consumer impacts, which we call the

18 NPV.

19 So the energy savings, you'll frequently hear

20 that called the NES, national energy savings, and then

21 the NPV is the dollar side of the equation. We use a

22 standard approach across all DOE rules to do a 30-year

23 period after the first year of the standard, and we

24 include in the accounting the energy savings associated

25 with everything that ships during the analysis period.
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1 So there's a sort of residual of, after 2048,

2 which is the final year of the analysis period for this

3 rule, the units that shipped that are still operating

4 after that period. Their energy savings are counted in

5 the total. An overall because when you do the repair,

6 you know, we either repair or replace a unit. So the

7 stock is essentially constant across efficiency levels,

8 but the distribution by vintage is what changes.

9 So the shipments analysis is used, as I was

10 saying, to create the picture of the stock model in the

11 base case. And then, because you have fewer shipments in

12 the standards case, the stock distribution changes.

13 So each year we have a -- a table of the total

14 stock as a function of vintage. And then we apply the

15 annual energy consumption per vintage and calculate the

16 energy use. The numbers that we report here, we do the

17 site-to-source conversion, so we convert from site

18 electricity to source quads. That's the fuel burned in

19 the electricity plants, and then we do the accumulated

20 totals across the analysis period.

21 So the primary inputs, which we'll go through

22 in more detail in the next slide, are listed here. We

23 have for the -- both the base case and the standards

24 case, we want the energy cost, maintenance and repair

25 cost, and equipment cost, and again, these are going to
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1 change as a function of efficiency level.

2 So the total installed costs are coming from

3 the LCC. Now, the LCC gives a full distribution of

4 results across all these different types of consumer, and

5 then what we put into the national impacts analysis is

6 just the weighted average from the LCC. So, it will be

7 the weighted average across all the different energy

8 prices by region and, of course, across all the different

9 discount rates across the LCC across all the different

10 curb conversion percentages, et cetera.

11 Repair and maintenance costs are also taken

12 from the LCC. So I think this is pretty much what we

13 discussed in the LCC section. I don't think there are

14 any significant changes here. We did do the different

15 time -- timeline for the non-compressor repairs and the

16 compressor repairs; this was requested last time.

17 Annual energy use, again, is coming from the

18 LCC average value. The base-case efficiencies have been

19 updated to reflect the most recent data submission. We

20 do have a base-case and standards-case projected

21 efficiency trend, which is almost flat given our current

22 estimates of consumer first-cost sensitivity. So

23 essentially, over time if the -- typically, energy prices

24 go up over time, so there's a slight increase in the

25 operating cost. And therefore, if consumers were
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1 sensitive to operating cost savings, they might be more

2 likely to buy more-efficient units in the future.

3 But what we find from the data that we have is

4 there is not much sensitivity to that outright in costs,

5 so our efficiency trend is pretty flat over time.

6 The energy prices come from the latest version

7 of the AEO, and we do -- again, the rest of this is

8 standard -- we do the full-fuel-cycle conversion. So

9 this includes sort of upstream energy consumption for the

10 electric sector, which adds just a couple percent to the

11 totals.

12 And as I said, the discount rates that are used

13 for the NPV in this calculation are 3 percent and 7

14 percent, which is an OMB requirement, and we are

15 discounting to the present year, just -- that's sort of a

16 unit conversion. So essentially, even though the

17 standard comes in in 2019, everything is discounted to

18 2015.

19 So this is something that may be a little more

20 relevant. So I think probably most of you have -- are

21 familiar with the process where we create TSLs out of

22 efficiency levels, ELs. So what we have done for this

23 stage of the work is just to take the TSLs as just

24 choosing the same EL across all different equipment

25 classes. But as you go through the process, you can -- I
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1 mean, it's basically possible to choose a different EL

2 level for different equipment classes, and then you're

3 going to get different aggregate results. So we have TSL

4 1 is just every equipment class gets EL 1, et cetera, et

5 cetera.

6 MR. CYMBALSKY: So this is John from DOE.

7 This, you know -- this table's really nice and

8 neat because there's no real difference, maybe a couple

9 here and there, where there's no 3.5s. But I don't want

10 to overlook the fact that these are potentially

11 negotiating positions, right? You could pick a different

12 EL for different equipment classes.

13 So maybe it's easier to go higher at the lower

14 levels, and not as easy on the higher levels. So you can

15 kind of Chinese menu this a little bit. So just keep

16 that in the back of your minds.

17 MS. COUGHLIN: Yeah, we're trying to set up a

18 tool so that if you want to change these numbers, we can

19 give a quick estimate of what the aggregate numbers would

20 be if you modified -- if you wanted to say, take two and

21 three, and combine them across different product classes. 

22 So with those values, this is what we get for the energy

23 savings.

24 MS. HOOTMAN: (Inaudible) commercial

25 (inaudible). Sorry, I wasn't -- Jill Hootman from Trane.
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1 Sorry.

2 MS. COUGHLIN: We can look into that. We did

3 not discuss that. We need sort of special output from

4 the NIA calculation to set that up, but we can look into

5 it and get back to you tomorrow.

6 MS. HOOTMAN: Okay.

7 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yeah, I was thinking those

8 numbers are a little more clear-cut in terms of costs and

9 benefits where you may not, you know, you don't have the

10 shrimp and lobster sauce and the pork lo mein to go back

11 and forth on. But it's all lo mein, apparently, for that

12 one.

13 MS. COUGHLIN: Okay. So this, we have here the

14 cumulative national energy savings across these strawman

15 TSLs for each of the equipment classes, and then at the

16 bottom, there is a total. So as you can see, the -- for

17 all equipment classes together, we're getting maximum

18 energy savings at max-tech. That's just normal.

19 And, I guess, we've been doing -- we've been

20 sitting in the corner doing our back-of-the-envelope

21 estimates, because, again, we did this in a hurry and

22 these spreadsheets can be a little complicated. We're

23 pretty confident that the numbers are pretty close to

24 what you would do if you just sat down and did a back of

25 the envelope looking at the shipments and various other
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1 things.

2 There may be some issues with TSLs 1 and 2

3 where these are somewhat overestimated, so again, these

4 are draft results, but definitely the order of magnitude

5 is correct. Did you want to -- oh, okay.

6 MR. ROSENQUIST: Just reiterating what

7 (inaudible) said.

8 MS. COUGHLIN: So we're continually updating,

9 so we'll keep you posted.

10 And then moving to the NPV. So this is the 3-

11 percent discount rate. So the energy savings just go up

12 as a function of the EL, but the NPV will go up and

13 potentially come back down as the balance between

14 purchase price increase and operating cost savings

15 changes. So here you can see, for example, the max NPV

16 at 3 percent is occurring in different places. It's EL 3

17 for small CUAC, moves up to EL 4 for the large and extra

18 large, and I believe it's at max-tech pretty much -- it's

19 max-tech for the small heat pump, EL 4 for large, and EL

20 5 for extra large.

21 And then when we go to a 7-percent discount

22 rate, the distribution or the relative value is about

23 where the maxima are and stay pretty much the same, but

24 the total values go down because they're discounting the

25 future operating cost savings more heavily.
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1 I think this is pretty much all we have to

2 present today.

3 MR. BANTLE: Okay. How about at this point we

4 take a brief break. I believe some people have a call,

5 and on this break, also take a look at this information.

6 See if you have any questions to bring back to the DOE

7 individuals.

8 MR. RAMIREZ: What time did you want to get

9 back together?

10 MR. deLASKI: Five, 10 minutes, I guess

11 (simultaneous speaking).

12 (Off-the-record conversation.)

13 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yeah, we've got the MIA left.

14 That's the wrap-up.

15 MS. HOOTMAN: Katie, one quick question. Go

16 back -- well, I guess the 3-percent discount rate one. So

17 you said on small package air conditioners, TSL 3. So I

18 can see that it goes from 26.7 to 28.3, and then it goes

19 back down. So I can almost see that, but then it goes

20 back up again. So why wouldn't you say 4 or 5?

21 MR. deLASKI: I was going to call Katie on

22 this, but I let it slide.

23 MS. COUGHLIN: I think I just misspoke. That's

24 all. Sorry.

25 MR. deLASKI: I heard the same thing.
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1 MS. COUGHLIN: No, you're right. You're right.

2 You're right.

3 MS. HOOTMAN: I was not following the logic

4 there, so --

5 MR. deLASKI: The accent for the small would be

6 TSL 5.

7 MS. COUGHLIN: TSL 5, yes.

8 MR. deLASKI: Right?

9 MS. COUGHLIN: Yes, yes.

10 MR. CYMBALSKY: But the statute does not

11 necessarily say max NPV; right?

12 MS. COUGHLIN: That's right.

13 MS. HOOTMAN: Oh, I understand. I just didn't

14 understand when she was pointing to that, and then I see

15 the numbers --

16 MR. CYMBALSKY: There's just a lot of numbers

17 and so --

18 MR. BANTLE: Okay. 3:24 right now. Let's try

19 to be back at 3:45 to restart. Thanks.

20 (Recess taken.)

21 MR. BANTLE: Before we move on, any questions

22 or comments on the last section? Okay.

23 MR. LAU: Hi folks, I'm Chris Lau, Navigant.

24 I'll be presenting the MIA results now. So these are

25 pretty standard slides. The purpose of the manufacture
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1 impact analysis is to assess the impact of potential

2 energy factors on the industry, including subgroups. We

3 also examine impacts on direct employment, manufacturing

4 capacity, cumulative burden.

5 For purposes of today, we're really focusing

6 strictly on the INPV impacts. We received shipments data

7 on Wednesday, and I think Greg cranked out new shipment

8 model results on Thursday, so we've been working on the

9 MIA since then. So I think this is a little more

10 detailed than we typically present in our NOPR

11 presentations. However, I want to focus on -- since we

12 had time -- get a little better understanding of how this

13 model works.

14 Let me start by going over some of the inputs.

15 A lot of our inputs come from a lot of the analyses that

16 we've already discussed today. For example, our current

17 future shipments come from the shipments analysis. Our

18 manufacturing production costs come from the engineering

19 analysis. Our financial metrics and markups come

20 upstream. They're from the MTA. Actually, they're from

21 SEC filings that go into the MTA. And our conversion

22 costs are some combination of manufacturer interviews and

23 the engineering analysis.

24 Now, for this rule and this analysis, our

25 conversion costs are strictly top-down. So they're
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1 completely based off of feedback from manufacturers, from

2 manufacturers in confidential interviews, and then we had

3 to scale that up to represent the industry. I know

4 there's some consternation about conversion costs. I

5 feel there's also a little confusion there, so I'll get

6 to that later in the slides.

7 Anyways, so with -- so what we thought was that

8 second column of beige boxes, if we go to the third

9 column, which are blue boxes again, what we do is we take

10 shipments, and we multiply it by the manufacturer

11 production costs and markups to get industry revenue. 

12 The MPCs themselves scale by shipments gives you COGS,

13 and so that basically gives you -- basically gives you

14 the beginnings of your annual income statements where

15 you're able to subtract off --

16 MR. SACHS: What's the COGS?

17 MR. LAU: Cost of Goods Sold.

18 MR. SACHS: Thank you.

19 MR. LAU: No problem.

20 We're able to estimate operating costs, using

21 some of our financial metrics, specifically SG&A as a

22 specific revenue, and R&D as a percentage of revenue. So

23 that gives us our annual income statement. We then add

24 back in depreciation, subtract off capital expenditures,

25 and subtract off changes of working capital to get us to
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1 an annual free cash flow.

2 We have a discount rate that we estimate for

3 the industry, again, based off SEC filings and industry

4 feedback. That gives us our discounted free cash flow,

5 which we sum up over the analysis period of 30 years to

6 get INPV. So it's a standard industry evaluation based

7 on discounted free cash flow.

8 So what's changed since the NOPR analysis?

9 Well, I'll be honest. We definitely have new MPCs based

10 off of the work Detlef and his team have done. We have

11 new shipments based off the team -- based off of Greg and

12 Katie's teams' work. We haven't changed the financial

13 metrics here; we haven't changed conversion costs; we

14 have not changed the markup scenarios. So this is

15 primarily a reflection of the changes we've already

16 discussed over the past several weeks. But, however, I

17 will walk through the financial metrics conversion costs

18 and markup scenarios now.

19 MR. HURST: I'm sorry. This is John Hurst with

20 Lennox. Can you repeat what you just said? You have not

21 adjusted --

22 MR. LAU: The financial metrics, the conversion

23 costs, or the markup choices, markup scenarios.

24 So our -- so the --

25 MR. HURST: So when you look at the GRIM
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1 results, would these numbers not change as a result of --

2 no change to financial metrics, conversion costs, and

3 markup scenarios? Is that --

4 MR. LAU: So the results are different because

5 the MPC (manufacturer production costs) and shipment

6 volumes have changed.

7 MR. HURST: Okay.

8 MR. LAU: Did I understand your question?

9 MS. MEYERS: So just one more clarifying

10 question. So if shipments -- you're saying the markup is

11 the same, regardless of what shipments do?

12 MR. LAU: No, no. The markup scenarios we

13 chose are the same; however, the markup values themselves

14 have changed.

15 MS. MEYERS: Markup values have changed.

16 MR. LAU: Right. We do two markup scenarios.

17 I'll get into it in a moment, but I'll touch upon it

18 right now. One is sort of a base-case preservation of

19 gross margin. So whatever markup manufacturers have

20 today, that we keep, and that number has not changed.

21 MR. HURST: On the declining shipments?

22 MR. LAU: Correct.

23 MR. HURST: How does that work? Just out of

24 curiosity.

25 MR. LAU: Actually, let me fast forward a
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1 little bit. So there are two markup scenarios. One is

2 preservation of gross margin, and one is preservation of

3 operating profit. And in the preservation gross margin

4 scenario, what we're basically saying is that

5 manufacturers use the same gross markup percentage before

6 and after the standard. So as MPCs increase,

7 manufacturers make more revenue. And this is just that

8 manufacturers are able to pass on the full cost of

9 compliance to their customers.

10 In the lower-bound scenario, manufacturers do

11 reduce their markups to the point where the industry has

12 the same per-unit operating profit before and after the

13 standard. What this means is the manufacturers’ capital

14 base increases as a result of the standard and the

15 investments required to meet the standard. However,

16 manufacturers cannot earn additional profit from those

17 investments.

18 So one case, your markup's the same. Other

19 case, your markup's coming down, such that you make the

20 same per-unit operating profit.

21 MR. HURST: This is John Hurst from Lennox. I

22 would just submit that neither one's realistic, but --

23 MR. LAU: Yeah, and we are willing to model

24 additional scenarios. These are, you know -- the

25 preservation margins are upper-bound; we've clear labeled
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1 it that. The preservation of operating profit, you make

2 a certain dollar profit per-unit today based upon

3 competitor forces and uniqueness of your offerings, and

4 the assumption is that you will continue to be able to

5 make that markup on a per-dollar basis.

6 In other rulemakings, we've modeled things such

7 as flat pricing. In other words, you cannot raise your

8 prices at all. However, that doesn't really make sense

9 in the standard in this rule because the MPCs increase so

10 much. No one's going to sell their product at a negative

11 margin.

12 MR. RAMIREZ: Chad, I'm sorry. Is there

13 information that would be helpful for them to use?

14 MALE SPEAKER: No.

15 MR. LAU: Here, we present the financial

16 metrics. We assumed -- again, these are based off of SEC

17 filings from public manufacturers of covered products.

18 Additionally, we took those numbers and asked

19 manufacturers for feedback in their interviews, and then

20 we would markup our way by feedback.

21 Here are the conversion cost figures we used.

22 Now, in written comments, there was some consternation

23 and confusion about the conversion costs for the

24 industry. I just want to be clear that, at least for the

25 NOPR notice and in the model here, at TSL 3, we assumed
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1 conversion costs of about $226 million for the industry,

2 which comes out to roughly $20.6 million per major

3 manufacturer.

4 I think there's some confusion because, in

5 addition to this conversion cost, we had added an

6 additional $12.7 million for the industry to cover CC&E.

7 And the reason for that was that, you know, these figures

8 are based off of market share feedback from industry in

9 interviews.

10 MS. MEYERS: And Chris, CC&E?

11 MR. LAU: Certification --

12 MS. MEYERS: Got it.

13 MR. LAU: Yes, Certification, Compliance, and

14 Enforcement.

15 In interviews, we really focused on the cost to

16 redesign products that did not meet the standard, and

17 that's the feedback we received. We did not really ask

18 manufacturers for the cost of re-rating products that met

19 the standard. And so we went back and looked at what it

20 cost to -- for the actual submission process to DOE. So

21 that $12.7 million does not include R&D product testing

22 in non-DOE certification. Those costs would be rolled

23 into the $226 million figure I had cited earlier.

24 MR. WHITWELL: So this is Bob Whitwell from

25 Carrier. So really, what happens when a standard change
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1 like this takes place is, you don't just redesign the

2 base-efficiency product, you have to -- manufacturers

3 have to redesign their entire product line, right?

4 Because when the base efficiency moves up, any tiering --

5 you need to redesign in order to keep the tiering

6 situation in place.

7 So it's really -- it's redesigning everything

8 that's impacted -- every -- every product line for that

9 particular product that's impacted.

10 MR. LAU: Yeah. And so for that process you

11 just described, we're essentially assuming $226 million,

12 which is roughly $20-ish million per manufacturer over

13 the compliance period.

14 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, which I think is small --

15 low based on our experience. Because you're looking at

16 something that's going from 6-ton up to 63-ton, multiple

17 product platforms. It's a huge, huge undertaking.

18 MR. HURST: Yeah, this is John Hurst from

19 Lennox --

20 MR. WHITWELL: And I think -- I think we

21 indicated that in the manufacturer impact interviews back

22 in 2014, '13, whenever they were.

23 MR. HURST: I was just going to say I concur in

24 that the margin structure collapses in the process as

25 well.
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1 MR. LAU: So I think this would be a -- so the

2 way -- in interviews, it's nice because we talk about the

3 specific pieces of equipment when it comes to capital

4 conversion costs, and we talk about the specific

5 man-hours related to a single platform. Like who, how

6 many, and how long, in terms of product conversion costs.

7 Obviously, that type of discussion is harder in

8 this forum. However, there's -- if you want to give a

9 little bit more specific feedback in terms of how to

10 scale these costs, you know, we're going to need to rerun

11 this model again to reflect the revisions in shipments

12 that Greg's still working on. So it would be an

13 opportune time to revise the conversion costs, also.

14 MS. HOOTMAN: Jill Hootman from Trane. And I

15 agree, we'll have to relook at those. I just want to

16 understand one thing on 74. So again, in this TSL 1,

17 like you have capital conversion of $15 million there.

18 That's $15 million over the base case?

19 MR. LAU: That's correct. So these are --

20 MS. HOOTMAN: They're not cumulative, 39 -- the

21 next one is 39 against the base case?

22 MR. LAU: That's correct.

23 MS. HOOTMAN: Okay. So as Bob was saying, when

24 we have multiple platforms and each one has to get

25 ratcheted up, there is some cumulation here that is
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1 really not really being accounted for.

2 MR. LAU: I think it is . . . it's just how

3 it's Presented, right?

4 MS. HOOTMAN: Well, no. You can triple,

5 quadruple, or times seven this, at least. So I think --

6 I agree with John and Bob. It's severely underestimated.

7 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp from Goodman. Like I

8 said, when we did our -- participated in the MIA, our

9 responses were only for minimum efficiency product. And

10 as to what is (inaudible) . . . and you're going to have

11 a new ASHRAE 90.1 values that are higher than the

12 industry minimum standard. So we were redesigning a

13 complete product line, everything. So the cost would be

14 much higher than what we reported.

15 Our total cost would be much higher than what

16 was reported at MIA. Because during the MIA (inaudible),

17 we were only interested in the specific values for the

18 base -- the minimum efficiency.

19 MR. deLASKI: Can you say that again? I just

20 had a follow-up to that.

21 MR. THARP: The information that we provided --

22 the questions as asked and what we provided were

23 specifically for the new minimum efficiency.

24 So if EL 3 were -- was selected, what we

25 provided was only our costs only associated with EL 3
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1 products. But in reality, at that point in time when EL

2 3 goes into effect, ASHRAE 90.1 might be EL 4, so we have

3 to go in and redesign all of our ASHRAE 90.1 products. 

4 And so those are additional costs that weren't provided

5 that are not -- I think are not necessarily accounted for

6 that the manufacturer has.

7 So what I'm saying is, this total of average

8 conversion cost per manufacturer does not include the --

9 all costs associated with the change in an energy

10 conservation standard, because the market changes

11 drastically whenever a new energy conservation standard

12 comes into play. Does that help?

13 MR. deLASKI: I think so. I think what you're

14 saying is, as I just say it back to you, that you're

15 redesigning -- individuals redesign the whole product

16 line, or Bob -- so you redesign -- whatever the standard

17 is, you're going to redesign the whole product line.

18 MS. HOOTMAN: Well, yeah. I mean, you have --

19 typically in these, we might have two or three platforms:

20 good, better, best. Some people call them those kind of

21 things, right? So if the good level is now going up to

22 something else, better and best have to go up. So you

23 have to redesign the other two in order to make the

24 differential that happens between the two of them.

25 At the same time, an ASHRAE standard might be
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1 coming in that we have to literally do (or maybe it's off

2 by one or two years) so that reinvestment has to happen,

3 as well as, yes, we are putting commercial warm air

4 furnaces and commercial unitary together, but you aren't

5 necessarily synching up the rest of the stuff that is

6 happening, all 22 rulemakings in this industry.

7 So you know, we have a substantial amount of

8 redesign, and it's -- I mean, some engineers sit back

9 there and think it's great, job security, but I don't

10 know if it's job security. We're going to exit things.

11 MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel. Plus, the

12 refrigerant change potential out there, too.

13 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah.

14 MR. DOPPEL: Just add that one little thing.

15 MS. HOOTMAN: Not potential, just when.

16 MR. WHITWELL: And in the absence of

17 regulation, what would be the normal time frame in which

18 you'd see that kind of redesign?

19 MS. HOOTMAN: Well, I mean ASHRAE is every

20 three years, you know. So we've -- we already have that

21 happening.

22 MR. WHITWELL: So every three years, ASHRAE has

23 the potential to be revised because it triggered this

24 kind of need for reinvestment?

25 MS. HOOTMAN: Right.
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1 MR. MISLAK: Well, and that kind of brings up a

2 question --

3 MS. HOOTMAN: And certainly other efficiencies,

4 consumption for energy efficiency push those as far as

5 incentive programs.

6 MR. MISLAK: So Andrew, that brings up a

7 question that that kind of breaks up the cycle of every

8 three years with ASHRAE, because we don't know what this

9 is going to be and what the impact is going to be between

10 the interaction, right, with ASHRAE. That's an unknown.

11 MR. WHITWELL: Thank you.

12 MR. STARR: So I have a question. So TSL 1 is

13 the 90.1-2013 levels. Is that right?

14 So in theory, if you were at TSL 1 for 2019,

15 that's where you're going to be if there was no

16 regulations in theory, right, or not?

17 Is that -- in other words, just say we -- or

18 yeah, that's 2016, but you wouldn't convert all of your

19 models until maybe 2019. Or would that --

20 MS. HOOTMAN: That's a choice.

21 MR. WHITWELL: Well, ASHRAE 90.1's effected.

22 The ASHRAE 90.1-2013 standards are effective January 1,

23 2016, for the States that have adopted that as a

24 standard.

25 MR. STARR: Right.
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1 MR. WHITWELL: So manufacturers are getting

2 ready for that right now.

3 MR. STARR: So they have some models, but

4 probably not all of them. So I think it was Dick Lord

5 that was maybe saying it takes another three years before

6 the whole market is really up to -- most the products are

7 up to the level because the codes don't adopt them for

8 another three years in a lot of places.

9 Or, I don't know. Is that -- would it be a

10 good assumption to assume by 2019, absent anything else,

11 you would be up to TSL 1, or that wouldn't be a good

12 assumption?

13 MR. WHITWELL: I can't speak for other

14 manufacturers, but for our company, we try to be ready at

15 the time it's effective -- ASHRAE 90.1.

16 MS. HOOTMAN: I would agree with Bob. You have

17 to either go all in or not. You just pretty much --

18 you're not going to go and go do a 10-ton and not do the

19 rest of them.

20 I mean, it just -- there's not economies of

21 scale. So you're going -- you're going to be ready for

22 1/1/2016 because that's what you think that a State Could

23 require, and if that State happens to be California,

24 Texas, or New York where the heavy populations are,

25 you're screwed if you're not there.
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1 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, and California Title 24 is

2 exactly the same as ASHRAE 90.1-2013, so they're already

3 there.

4 MR. STARR: So in theory, you're geared up for

5 TSL 1 January 1st of next year. And if you're doing a

6 little planning, you would know that 2016, which is

7 coming up, which would be effective in 2019, would

8 probably be a standard level higher than TSL 1.

9 So you may be geared a little bit already for

10 some of this manufacturer impact. It's just a question

11 of where it goes beyond that, right? I mean, you don't

12 know what the future's going to be. You don't know what

13 TSL level 2019's at.

14 MR. ZENDAH: But I think -- this is Sami Zendah

15 with Emerson -- that's State-by-State adoption, right,

16 versus the law. So that's an example.

17 MR. STARR: Well --

18 MS. HOOTMAN: True, Sami. True.

19 MR. STARR: But more my point is ... is that

20 some -- yeah, I guess you can't say across all the

21 manufacturers -- but certainly some of them are gearing

22 up most of their product lines for the year that the

23 ASHRAE standard becomes effective. But I think -- is

24 there a way -- another thought, too, is to understand

25 what those 2016 equipment efficiency levels, which might
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1 be coming out soon, is there any way to know what those

2 are? It comes from AHRI, right, essentially?

3 MR. WHITWELL: No. AHRI? No.

4 MS. HOOTMAN: No.

5 MR. STARR: Oh, okay.

6 MR. CYMBALSKY: This is John from DOE. Going

7 back to the good, better, best that we were discussing,

8 and the redesign and all the costs, I think I understand

9 what you're saying. But I -- I guess I struggle with the

10 fact that the NOPR actually picked a level that would

11 continue to offer the good, better, best strategy.

12 So I guess I'm curious -- and maybe it's not

13 for every manufacturer offering in those exact IEER

14 buckets, but my understanding is that the way the ELs

15 were structured, it would leave in place the good,

16 better, best.

17 So I'm struggling with what the -- the end

18 (coughing) cost is to redesign if, in fact, those models

19 already exist today. It's just scaling up production at

20 that point. Isn't it?

21 MR. WHITWELL: No, John because -- so EL -- the

22 NOPR came in somewhat above our better, right? Right

23 around our better; some are above; some are below, or

24 some are on. But the difference is, that if that becomes

25 the standard, that is going to be your volume product.
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1 MR. CYMBALSKY: Right. Well, I get that, but

2 it's already engineered, right?

3 MR. WHITWELL: So it's -- there -- we have a

4 product, but if it's your volume product, you're going to

5 -- you're going to want to make sure you're optimizing

6 your cost for it, right? I mean, we optimize our cost

7 for the volume product, and then we -- we use that --

8 that platform for our tiered up strategy, right?

9 So it's not necessarily going to be the same

10 product that we sell if -- let's say if EL 3, you know,

11 based on the NOPR, if that became the national minimum,

12 it wouldn't -- it would not be the same product that we

13 sell today. We would be looking to optimize the cost of

14 that at that new level, so it's going to be different

15 product.

16 MR. WINNINGHAM: And this is Dave at Allied.

17 The feature set between a base minimum efficiency and

18 kind of the step-up products is -- can be significantly

19 different. And your design approach towards that, I

20 don't think you could just take that product and say,

21 "Oh, I've got a product that meets that efficiency," and

22 succeed in the market.

23 MR. WHITWELL: You can do that, but --

24 MR. CYMBALSKY: Not for long.

25 MR. WHITWELL: -- it's not going to be a
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1 successful strategy.

2 MR. CYMBALSKY: I guess I was comparing it to

3 the last meeting with the residential furnaces where we

4 proposed '92, and then it left '95 and '97, like the

5 good, better, best strategy. I didn't hear any comment

6 on that being not appropriate, so maybe I made a little

7 bit of a leap of faith here, but okay.

8 MR. LAU: So that is actually a worthwhile

9 suggestion. You know, in other rule makings,

10 particularly for freezer products, we've often done a

11 good, better, best markup. And as the standard goes up,

12 it leaves less and less room for that good, better, best

13 differentiation, and we see a compression of markups. At

14 some point, you see a fallout of the best, because you

15 can't differentiate by efficiency.

16 So if we had feedback that good, better, best

17 would be appropriate here, and we get a little indication

18 of what the good, better, best levels are in the range of

19 markups there, we could also build that in. That would

20 be a non-trivial amount of work, but it could be done.

21 MS. MEYERS: So Chris, this is Karen. So where

22 do we start getting into cumulative regulatory burden on

23 all of this stuff?

24 MR. LAU: Sure. So I mean, this was -- the

25 intent here was to focus on INPV. It's not a NOPR
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1 presentation per se, so we're trying to present the

2 numbers that we thought people would find useful in their

3 negotiation.

4 MS. MEYERS: Well, maybe the question is better

5 directed to you, John. I mean, where does the Department

6 start bringing the cumulative regulatory burden,

7 specifically on this industry, into all these discussions

8 that we're having?

9 MR. CYMBALSKY: So it was in the NOPR already.

10 You can see the numbers there. We don't have it in the

11 presentation today, but as we finalize --

12 MS. MEYERS: What do you calculate as -- as --

13 I mean, how do you determine whether it's acceptable or

14 not for an industry? What is the criteria that the

15 Department looks at?

16 MR. CYMBALSKY: I don't think there's anything

17 written down for the levels.

18 MS. MEYERS: So it could be -- it could be two

19 Trillion, and it would be okay as long as you calculate

20 it, or it could be $1 million? It doesn't really matter

21 in the whole --

22 MR. CYMBALSKY: You know, I'm not going to --

23 MS. MEYERS: I mean, there's nowhere that's --

24 I mean, I think that's -- you know, I struggle with that,

25 but, you know, where is it defined as what's acceptable
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1 and what's not acceptable, and should it be defined?

2 MR. deLASKI: Karen, this is Andrew. I mean,

3 it's a good question, and it's one that sort of could, I

4 guess, be applied to any one of the seven factors in the

5 statute. I mean, the statute calls for the Secretary to

6 do the balance of seven factors in determining what's

7 technologically feasible and what's economically

8 justified. It's a balancing of those factors, and that's

9 what's been done for 30-odd years.

10 And you're looking, you know, is there ever a

11 hard, true, okay if you cross that threshold then you

12 don't do it, right?

13 MS. MEYERS: Well, I think it's a little --

14 yeah, I think --

15 MR. deLASKI: It also depends on --

16 MS. MEYERS: I think it's an important

17 question. Because I think that the spot we're at today is

18 very different than the place we've been in the last 30

19 years. The pace has certainly accelerated, and the

20 efficiency levels that we are getting to are requiring,

21 you know, are certainly having a significant increase on

22 the type of conversions costs that manufacturers are

23 going to incur to be able to achieve those levels.

24 So I mean -- I mean, if you ask me, you know, I

25 think we waste -- that balance is way, way off. But, you
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1 know, I think there needs to be -- you know, I just guess

2 -- you know, I want to understand. If the Department is

3 supposed to balance that, what are they considering as --

4 as, you know, what's an acceptable balance and what's a

5 not acceptable balance? So --

6 MR. deLASKI: So I think the very endeavor that

7 we're on right now, and in fact, I think the advocates in

8 part agreed to do this in part to try to work with you to

9 mitigate some of the burden that you specifically have

10 called out about the effective dates for furnaces and air

11 conditioners. And I know your list goes beyond that,

12 right?

13 MS. MEYERS: Yeah.

14 MR. deLASKI: So we're around this table in

15 part to address the concerns that you've raised. In

16 large part, that's why we're here, to try to come up with

17 -- to align the effective dates for these two products so

18 that we can help to reduce regulatory burden in that

19 matter, and that's why we're talking.

20 It's not the -- I know it's not the whole story

21 that you want to hear, but that's part of why we came to

22 this board.

23 MS. MEYERS: You know -- and, I mean, I'm

24 really just asking the question, I'm trying to determine,

25 you know ... we calculate regulatory burden, but then, I
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1 mean, it really is just a question. I mean, what do we

2 consider going, you know, that this cumulative amount is

3 -- way exceeds what it should, and what is acceptable?

4 And I really am -- this is a question I am asking because

5 it all ... you know, we start getting into the financial

6 impact of all of this. This is where we, as businesses,

7 have to make some really critical decisions. And that's

8 the part of the stuff that we're getting to is, you know,

9 what is -- this is -- these are real dollars.

10 MR. deLASKI: I understand. And from my

11 perspective, part of what this committee now is tasked

12 with doing is coming up with a joint recommendation

13 hopefully, where the minds around this table work to come

14 up with an approach that balances these factors in a way

15 that we can come up with a recommendation for the

16 Department.

17 MR. WHITWELL: But part of the issue is that

18 it's not just this, right? We've got this one. We've

19 got fans and blowers which could impact the same product. 

20 We don't know where that's going to go yet.

21 We got the -- the FDA is going to do something

22 with refrigerant sometime before we go through the next

23 -- EPA, sorry.

24 MS. HOOTMAN: Although the FDA --

25 MR. WHITWELL: FDA is probably going to do
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1 something, you know. There's -- it's not just this one,

2 Andrew. It's all of them, and, you know, I think Karen's

3 -- it's a good question. I don't know what the answer is

4 --

5 MS. HOOTMAN: And we're all -- and a lot of us

6 are all residential makers, and we're not -- we're not

7 immune to the other stuff that's going on with

8 residential, as well.

9 MR. deLASKI: And we also look to the benefits

10 out of the equation. So what's happening, in terms of

11 what's happening on the impact in energy consumption,

12 (inaudible).

13 MR. CYMBALSKY: And again, going back to

14 furnaces, the reason the Department proposed 92 and not

15 95 was cumulative regulatory burden. That was the reason

16 stated in the proposal for not choosing a higher level

17 that met the statutory thresholds.

18 So we do -- I mean, it is very important. Is

19 there a hard and fast number? I mean, you know,

20 certainly haven't stated it if there is one. But we do

21 parse the data and analysis in percentage terms, in

22 dollar terms, so that we can get a good readout on how

23 it's going to impact the regulated industry. It's

24 obviously very important. It's one of the factors. So

25 --
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1 MR. MISLAK: But the energy is never saved if

2 the product isn't sold because it's too expensive, and I

3 think that's what we're -- what we're looking at.

4 MR. CYMBALSKY: And that's why we have an 11

5 percent drop in shipments in some of these ELs.

6 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. And just because

7 we are making a record, at least on the issue of

8 cumulative regulatory burden as it extends out to other

9 agencies, I'm proud of our record as advocates in trying

10 to work with industry to document the benefits of

11 efficiency in terms of global warming by emphasizing

12 LCCP.

13 I'm proud of our efforts that we have been

14 making to coordinate on the residential side effective

15 dates for refrigerant change out with those standards.

16 It's a matter being discussed today.

17 So where we have limited influence, we're

18 trying to use that to try to minimize the regulatory

19 burden.

20 MR. LAU: Are we ready for the results? So the

21 two markup scenarios result in a -- the two markups

22 result in an upper-bound and lower-bound, or a high

23 scenario and low scenario. And so the first table, we

24 see the base-case INPV is about $1.4 trillion. I can see

25 how that -- those numbers are effected in the high and
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1 low case.

2 The second table shows the absolute dollar

3 amount, change IMPB. And where I tend to focus my

4 attention is that third table, which is the percentage

5 change in INPV as the standard increases.

6 MR. SACHS: Chris, I'm sorry. Did I hear

7 billion or trillion?

8 MR. LAU: Sorry. These are -- it's $1.3

9 Billion, and here's that same data in graphical format.

10 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. So again, I mean, you've

11 got to look at the cumulative impact, right? So this is

12 one rule, and then you've got the other rules that could

13 have similar-type negative impacts, right? So --

14 MR. LAU: Well, when we look at the other

15 rules, you're talking about other products, and you're

16 bringing additional revenue and additional profit. So

17 you're expanding your definition of the industry.

18 MR. WHITWELL: No, there are other things on

19 this product as well, right?

20 MS. HOOTMAN: They're all in the same product.

21 Commercial fans and blowers on the same product,

22 commercial warm air furnace, the same product. So it's

23 the same dollars. You better not be double and

24 triple-counting the same dollars.

25 MR. LAU: We're not. So for example in the
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1 warm air furnaces, the MPC confirms the components, and

2 there's no overlapping components there, right? That has

3 a separate markup and a separate pricing structure. To

4 be honest, that speaks to the challenge of cumulative

5 regulatory burden.

6 Do you deem each standard or each rule

7 cost-effective as you add on the different rules? Right,

8 you have the -- you're increasing the definition of the

9 industry, and as you're increasing -- expanding your

10 definition of the cost of the industry. And so if each

11 rule by itself is justified, then the cumulative impact

12 is justified.

13 MR. CYMBALSKY: I think for fans and blowers,

14 we would -- to the extent that it almost reminds me of

15 the furnace and the furnace fan rules, right, because

16 almost, I mean, one is a component of the other. I mean,

17 not exactly. But we'll -- we'll cross that bridge --

18 MS. HOOTMAN: And you have to redesign

19 refrigeration because of that. In this case, you will

20 have to redesign the refrigeration in order to meet the

21 fan, because now the fan will work differently and/or

22 metric or whatever.

23 MR. CYMBALSKY: Well, maybe.

24 MS. HOOTMAN: Maybe, not knowing yet where it's

25 going to go. So the refrigeration will likely change, as
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1 well.

2 MR. CYMBALSKY: So we can't change the outcome

3 of what's there. But my understanding of what's been --

4 what's been put out in the fans and blowers NODA is that

5 there wouldn't be any fans coming off the market

6 necessarily. But that's different. We'll deal with that

7 in that --

8 MALE SPEAKER: (Inaudible.)

9 MR. CYMBALSKY: Right. The approach that

10 they're taking, to me, is not necessarily going to have

11 the impact that was stated. But let's let that play out

12 a little more.

13 You know, we'll be in this -- we'll be

14 negotiating that Wednesday and Thursday for all the folks

15 who want to stick around.

16 MS. MEYERS: So Chris, walk me through this,

17 just this chart. So let's start where we have no new

18 standards case, and we go down to TSL 1. So if I want to

19 preserve my operating profit, and let's just say it's $1

20 million, you're saying that my company would then have to

21 do what?

22 MR. LAU: Well, first of all, let's -- you

23 know, I think -- let me recharacterize something Katie

24 said earlier. The MIA is an industry analysis, right? 

25 We're using average MPCs, average conversion costs, so I
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1 cannot speak to any specific company --

2 MS. MEYERS: Just say I'm the only company --

3 let's say the average company. So I'm the only company

4 --

5 MR. LAU: So we did an engineering analysis,

6 right? What did it take to get from baseline to EL 1?

7 You know, those are the assumptions that were made in

8 terms of what the product changes are.

9 And so the engineering analysis focuses on what

10 is the incremental cost, and the MIA scales that up to an

11 industry level based on shipments. And then we also

12 layer on the conversion costs, sort of the upfront costs.

13 MS. MEYERS: This is a (inaudible).

14 MR. LAU: So if -- if you believe what's

15 happened in -- if you generally agree with the

16 engineering analysis numbers, and you at least somewhat

17 believe the shipment numbers, right, what this is saying

18 is, if you don't change your pricing -- if you're able to

19 not change your price -- your markup at all, then there's

20 a 2.7 percent gain in terms of industry value, right? So

21 each sees 2.7 percent increase in discounted cash flow

22 over a 30-year period.

23 If drop your markup, and actually, I think I

24 have the backup slide that shows the assumed markup

25 values. Right, if you drop your markup such that you're
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1 making the same dollar amount per unit, then you'll --

2 then you'll have a drop -- an 8 percent of industry

3 value.

4 MR. STARR: And what if you can't make that?

5 MR. LAU: Then it will be lower.

6 MR. STARR: So there's a lower than low?

7 MR. LAU: Well, you have to -- I mean, so if

8 you could provide a different forecast of markups, we

9 could incorporate that into the model, you know. We are

10 certainly open to that, but in order to at least provide

11 bounds, we had to make certain assumptions.

12 MR. deLASKI: Chris, this is Andrew. One

13 question I have is, I think we heard earlier that 90.1,

14 2016 is sort of baked in already.

15 MR. LAU: Right. So I think the -- where Louis

16 was going with that was that conversion costs for TSL 1

17 should essentially be zero. Again, our conversion cost,

18 we strictly took what the manufacturers told us in

19 interviews, and we kind of sanity-checked those numbers,

20 and so we wanted to go with that.

21 Also, those interviews were several years ago,

22 so that also adds a little bit of a wrinkle here for the

23 -- actually, I guess I didn't say this earlier, we did

24 escalate those numbers for inflation. So I think if you

25 look at the numbers here, the conversion costs, they're
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1 just -- they may be like 3 percent higher than in the

2 NOPR.

3 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp with Goodman. I guess

4 a couple comments from our side. Again, just going back

5 to the conversion costs that we supplied were only for

6 the new base-case models or the minimum efficiency

7 products.

8 Also, based on the chart you just showed, we

9 don't think that we would be able to maintain those

10 markups at those various levels. I need to go back and

11 run those by others within my organization, but I think

12 that those are on the high side.

13 So once you get to TSL 2 or two-and-a-half,

14 they're going to drop much, much, much more than one

15 point each. So that's just my estimate. I need to

16 verify with others, but that would be our feedback.

17 MR. LAU: Just based on the short conversation

18 we've had, it sounds like something along a three-tier

19 markup and having the ability to show that compression of

20 markups would be valuable here. We didn't necessarily

21 get enough data to build that when we did our NOPR

22 interviews.

23 So if you folks want to have a short

24 conversation with me after this meeting, perhaps we can

25 start pulling together some of that data. Or
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1 alternatively, if you want to provide some sort of what

2 you think would be an appropriate markup for each

3 equipment class, that's also a possibility.

4 MR. STARR: So this is Louis with NEEA. I

5 mean, I guess from my perspective, I'm looking at this as

6 TSL 1 is January 2016. In theory, this regulation

7 wouldn't go until 2019, so you're three years ahead of

8 the game. If I just had to make a wild guess, I would

9 guess that the 2019 values that you would have to meet by

10 an ASHRAE 90.1-2016 would be a TSL 2.

11 So in my mind, without a DOE ever stepping in

12 the room, we would be at TSL 2 by 2019 already. I'm kind

13 of having some problems seeing past that, but if you guys

14 could help me understand that, that would be helpful.

15 MS. HOOTMAN: Go ahead.

16 MR. WINNINGHAM: Well, I think -- Louis, to a

17 certain -- this is Dave with Allied. I think to a

18 certain extent, what you say is probably true. But those

19 conversion costs are real, and the normal processes that

20 we had, in the past, been of the mindset that the -- the

21 levels that come out of 90.1 become the Federal standards

22 and had been gearing towards that process.

23 This NOPR really was somewhat of a surprise to

24 us in that we're talking about significantly higher

25 levels in a time frame, you know -- you know, much closer
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1 than --

2 MR. STARR: So it's more the unexpected that's

3 the problem. I guess I can see where your concern is,

4 because if you think ... Well, let's just say we agree on

5 level, but who knows what that is, but then ASHRAE comes

6 out, you know, based upon, they come out with another set

7 of levels that you would potentially have to meet. But

8 one might say that, I don't know that ASHRAE would

9 necessarily do that if they know that there's Federal

10 standards. I mean, I don't know. That's --

11 MR. WHITWELL: I think ASHRAE doesn't know what

12 to do right now.

13 MR. WINNINGHAM: Yeah. I think that's a key

14 point that right now, we have a serious issues within the

15 ASHRAE process as it relates to these type of products

16 and, are there some additional fallouts to other product

17 categories, building codes. If we significantly stray

18 from the process that has been working and it's part of

19 this process, well, yeah.

20 MR. ZENDAH: So Louis, another way -- Sami

21 Zendah of Emerson. I mean, I think maybe two weeks ago,

22 a slide was shown here where I think only three States

23 have adopted ASHRAE 90.1-2013.

24 If you think about it the other way, if every

25 State would adopt that by 1/1/16, can you imagine the
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1 savings that's associated with that? I just don't know

2 how that would compare to this. But, you know, you're

3 thinking 19. I'm thinking, if the State would allow -- I

4 mean, yeah, that's one way to look at it, too.

5 MR. STARR: Yeah, it's how much of your market

6 share is actually -- how much the market share by 2016 is

7 actually at TSL 1 is actually what you're getting at,

8 right?

9 I think with some companies, maybe Carrier, for

10 example, they may have most of their product line there,

11 but maybe other people do not have their product lines

12 there. So having an understanding of how many of these

13 products would really be at these certain TSL levels

14 would actually be helpful in where we end up on these,

15 perhaps.

16 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. And just as I

17 think about things, one of the fundamental differences --

18 substantive differences between 90.1 and this process,

19 the DOE rule, is that 90.1 includes a number of important

20 prescriptive features. And the question in this context

21 is that those are very important for energy savings. To

22 what extent are they helpful in product differentiation

23 given the high levels at the -- in this current DOE

24 process?

25 MS. HOOTMAN: I don't know that I understand
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1 the question.

2 MR. STARR: I think what he's asking is, are

3 there prescriptive measures that would actually get you

4 energy savings that are accounted for in 90.1 that you

5 could make part of the standards, I think is where he's

6 going with that.

7 MR. SACHS: Well, my question was actually more

8 open-ended than that, but it was aimed at what John has

9 referred to as "collapse of markups," or "the

10 co-modification," and to what extent the lack of the

11 prescriptive features in the DOE process allows or

12 provides a platform for building differentiation through

13 measures reflected in the base requirements in 90.1.

14 MR. STARR: I think like your three-stage

15 cooling over certain size, you're required to have

16 three-stage prescriptively by 90.1. You're supposed to

17 have three stages of cooling. That would be an example

18 of something and certain equipment size --

19 MR. SACHS: That's required.

20 MS. HOOTMAN: That's required.

21 MR. SACHS: To what extent are 90.1's

22 prescriptives taking away the opportunity to

23 differentiate those features?

24 MR. WHITWELL: I don't know how to measure it.

25 MS. MEYERS: That's why I'm struggling.
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1 MR. WHITWELL: It does take some of that away

2 -- Bob Whitwell from Carrier. It certainly would take

3 some of that away. I don't know how to quantify it. It

4 also would lead manufacturers to go down certain paths,

5 as opposed to innovating in other directions, right?

6 MR. SACHS: Thank you. It's -- so what I'm

7 taking away is that there's an awful lot of uncertainty

8 which would lead me to believe that manufacturers will --

9 are likely to head in divergent directions exploring

10 that.

11 MR. CYMBALSKY: Well, that's generally why the

12 performance path was preferred all along, right? I mean,

13 it gives each manufacturer a different potential path to

14 get to a level. And DOE doesn't tell you, "Do X, Y, and

15 Z." And yeah, innovation is, you know, it's a trademark

16 of this country, as far as I know, and I'm hoping it

17 continues.

18 But back to the ASHRAE thing. So I mean, the

19 statute's pretty clear about DOE's responsibility to

20 adopt or go higher that ASHRAE depending on the analysis,

21 and that's why we're here today, right? That's -- this

22 is what we're negotiating around is that ASHRAE did its

23 -- well, in this case, didn't do its thing. But the law

24 said that DOE should undertake the rule. So we're not

25 doing anything beyond what the statute, and thereby the
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1 law, told us to do.

2 And so that's why we're here today to -- well,

3 tomorrow –- to start hopefully negotiating around the

4 proposal. But as far as ASHRAE goes, I mean, moving

5 forward, I mean, the statute says what it says. It's --

6 you know, except for the AEMTCA amendments that came in

7 at the end of, what? 2013, you know, its been the same

8 way.

9 But, you know, this analysis clearly leads to a

10 higher proposal relative to what may have come out of

11 ASHRAE, but I don't see that process... Unless something

12 changes in the statute, that process is written down in

13 the law, so we're going to continue to do that, and, you

14 know, it's about the analysis. It's all about the

15 numbers. So if the numbers for other rules may have

16 clearly pointed to adopt ASHRAE and not go higher,but

17 again, it's a rule-by-rule basis. It's what the analysis

18 points to.

19 MR. LAU: So I had a few more closing comments

20 before I wrap up this MIA section.

21 You know, the written comments from the NOPR

22 kind of focus on three different areas that would affect

23 the calculations in the GRIM. Certainly, there were some

24 conversion costs. What I'll say with conversion costs is

25 that we tried hard to listen to what the industry said.
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1 We're actually pretty good, I think, at capital

2 conversion costs because we can tour your facilities, we

3 can estimate what design options are required, and we can

4 estimate the costs of new equipment, tooling, changes in

5 the facilities pretty well.

6 On the product conversion costs side, it's a

7 little bit more challenging in two ways, one: Your design

8 process is probably different than the design process we

9 use, which is, you know, that what we're focusing on is

10 how to design a minimally-compliant product.

11 Two: Often, the feedback on a product

12 conversion costs side is high level, and it doesn't give

13 us enough detail to do a validation. And three: Based

14 on what I heard today, if you do provide feedback on

15 conversion costs and product conversion costs in

16 particular, it would be helpful -- how do I phrase this?

17 When you redesign a product, I know your

18 product manager has a whole list of features that they're

19 itching to get into the product when it comes up for

20 redesign. But in some ways, we need to separate some of

21 those nice features from what is actually -- from the

22 changes that are specific to the DOE Energy Conservation

23 Standard, right? And I know that's very difficult to do,

24 but that would help us better understand the cost of the

25 standard.
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1 MR. WHITWELL: I understand why you would want

2 that, but it's not so straightforward.

3 MR. LAU: I said that with a straight face, but

4 I understand the challenges.

5 The other two issues that came up were the

6 alignment of effective dates between CWAFs and CUACs, I

7 think it is. (Simultaneous speaking.) CUAC, I -- I

8 think that's part -- those are issues that are open for

9 negotiation over the course of discussion.

10 And the final issue was one that focused on our

11 employment numbers which, it has been suggested, are not

12 quite reflective of the industry. I'll be honest --

13 we're still working on this. You know, typically, if our

14 MPCs are right and our labor percentages are right, these

15 numbers come out pretty well. In this case, they didn't.

16 But since MPCs are opportunity involved, we haven't had a

17 chance to quite dig into this one yet. So that's on our

18 to-do.

19 MR. WINNINGHAM: Chris, when will we have

20 something on that? Because this is something that I

21 think is -- is very critical to the analysis. Because

22 the total number that you have for employment here is

23 probably less than a few -- a couple of the manufacturers

24 that are sitting at the table.

25 MR. LAU: Right, right. I think the number
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1 that we had -- I don't know the exact number. I think it

2 was 1,000 to 2,000. I think that's fair --

3 MR. WINNINGHAM: 1,085.

4 MR. LAU: Yeah, I think that was fairly

5 understated. I guess the only thing I would say is, keep

6 in mind that that's direct employment, so it's people in

7 the production line that touch the product, right,

8 doesn't include --

9 MR. WINNINGHAM: But understand --

10 MR. LAU: Yes, I recognize it's still fairly

11 understated, and we're working to try to figure out how

12 to resolve that.

13 MALE SPEAKER: That's not fairly understated,

14 it's way off.

15 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah, and I know we're kind of

16 laughing about it, but in one plant alone -- and I have

17 five that work on this product – in one plant alone,

18 direct labor, 1,085, I have more than that. So I don't

19 understand. I can go times five, and then every other

20 manufacturer so -- you are not -- you're not just

21 somewhat off; you're hugely off.

22 MR. LAU: Right. And so part of that may be

23 the -- you know, it's an artificial differentiation in

24 your minds. But for the Department, commercial air

25 conditioners, commercial furnaces are different. So it's
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1 like, you have to subtract off the percentage of time

2 that those people spend building commercial warm air

3 furnaces.

4 MS. HOOTMAN: They go on the same line. I

5 don't know how you do that.

6 MR. HURST: Well you count one arm.

7 MR. LAU: Well, I mean your line does run,

8 yeah. I mean, I'm sure your operations people have some

9 -- could potentially put together some sort of estimate

10 of number of hours put together, furnace, and

11 installation time into the cabinet.

12 MS. HOOTMAN: Sure, and I would still place in

13 a guess that --

14 MR. LAU: We're understated. I recognize that.

15 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes.

16 MR. CYMBALSKY: So there was one more issue --

17 we've still got another. We need it for the transcript,

18 Detlef, to clarify what we were going to do with those

19 30-ton units, the heat pump conversions, because he

20 didn't pick it up on the recording, apparently. Could

21 have been me, but someone was laughing too loud in the

22 microphone to catch it. So just a quick recap for the

23 transcript.

24 MR. WESTPHALEN: Yeah, sure. This is for the

25 IEER differentials for the gas heat units. And so my
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1 understanding is that Jim of Carrier will conduct the

2 analysis for the seven-and-a-half and 15-ton units, maybe

3 with some help of others, and that he will provide some

4 input for us to conduct that analysis for the 30-ton

5 units, which we'll then present to the group.

6 MR. THARP: Along those lines, I'll just --

7 we've reviewed some of our information, and we have at

8 least one model where there's a 1.2 IEER delta between a

9 gas heat and electronic heat model. 1.2.

10 MR. WESTPHALEN: Okay.

11 MR. STARR: So I have a question. It will help

12 me understand the AHRI data that was provided to the

13 consultants. Was there information at a level enough to

14 understand the three bins: The seven-and-a-half, 15, and

15 30, to know the shipment-weighted analysis of how many

16 units at given IEER levels for those three bins? Or is

17 that information not -- is there any way to understand

18 that from the data that was provided or not?

19 MR. MISLAK: I mean, what we provided were

20 actual shipment numbers, not shipment-weighted numbers.

21 MR. STARR: So they know how much of 12.5 in

22 the seven-and-a-half-ton unit, they know how many units

23 are there?

24 MR. MISLAK: Yes. Yes.

25 MR. STARR: Okay.
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1 MR. deLASKI: And that what's on the record. 

2 Is that right? So we can get that submitted if we want

3 to look at that. Is that right?

4 MR. MISLAK: Sure.

5 MR. WINNINGHAM: This is Dave with Allied. The

6 only part that's missing is where there's asterisks in

7 certain columns where the information couldn't be

8 divulged.

9 MR. SACHS: The question of the -- this is

10 Harvey. The question of the asterisk, for those who

11 haven't been around that on the advocate's side, I

12 believe that's been standard practice since the industry

13 reporting was started. This is not unique to this

14 process. Pardon me?

15 MALE SPEAKER: We don't get to see it either.

16 MS. MEYERS: So for that asterisk number,

17 individual manufacturers don't see that number, either.

18 It's just standard practice. So Nick is the only one who

19 knows. Actually, he doesn't even know it. Shannon is

20 the only one who knows.

21 MR. STARR: Well, one of the reasons I ask

22 about that information, if you think about you're

23 redesigning your equipment and you understand what tier

24 levels you're at to get your good, better, and best, you

25 have to know where your volumes are, and so you switch
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1 that up. So if you understand where -- so what did we do

2 in our own stuff, he took the AHRI database, and we put

3 out all the models that were available. Well, that shows

4 you the models, but it doesn't show you how many pieces

5 of the equipment are actually our given IEER models,

6 which I think that would be helpful in understanding

7 where the market's at in terms of, is there a lot of

8 stuff really at the borderline, and then it shifts up

9 more? Or actually, maybe, if you could describe that,

10 that would be helpful in describing what the general

11 trends in the margin are in the market.

12 MR. WHITWELL: Well, actually, what Greg showed

13 this morning showed -- the data was in there.

14 MR. WINNINGHAM: This is Dave with Allied.

15 Eric, before we break here today, just had one question

16 regarding your kind of statement around multiple metrics.

17 It's my understanding that, you know, DOE cited 42 USC 63

18 11(8), that EPCA requires a DOE-established energy

19 conservation standards using a single metric for these

20 products. What has changed since that assessment in the

21 NOPR that --

22 MR. STAS: Eric Stas, DOE. I mean, I think

23 what I pointed you to in the statement is the -- is the

24 other times we used the multiple metric was under our

25 direct final rule authority of 6295(p)(4). So if the
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1 group follows a similar course, then we would be able to

2 follow a similar course.

3 MR. RAMIREZ: Anything else for today?

4 MR. deLASKI: I'll just add, in my experience,

5 Dave, when we negotiated previously the residential air

6 conditioner standards, including the EER for the

7 southwest region, the Department adopted that using that

8 using the DFR process. So I think it was a pretty

9 similar situation, if not identical.

10 MS. MEYERS: So I've got a question on that,

11 Andrew. The NAECA never specifically said that it should

12 be only one metric, and EPCA does. That's my

13 understanding. Maybe I'm wrong.

14 MR. deLASKI: Yeah, I don't --

15 MS. MEYERS: So NAECA never disallowed two --

16 MR. deLASKI: You're making me drudge through

17 some pretty ancient memories here. But I'm -- you know,

18 my understanding is what -- my understanding of what --

19 my read on what Eric has said to us today is that a DFR

20 gives a pretty broad latitude potentially, right?

21 MS. MEYERS: I understand that. I understand

22 that.

23 MR. deLASKI: And the parts of the difference

24 between those two situations, I'm not sure are necessary

25 for us. And we probably could do it, but I'm not sure
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1 it's necessary, and I hesitate to get into the

2 comparison.

3 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. Eric may grimace

4 when I say that, but my interpretation of the writing on

5 the wall was what is not prohibited might be permitted.

6 And if we all agree, they're in a hard spot for saying

7 no.

8 MR. RAMIREZ: All right. Let's just take care

9 of a few closing issues, then. Is there anyone for

10 public comment? And we're opening it up to those online

11 or in the back. Going once, going twice.

12 All right. Then for tomorrow, we're starting

13 at 9:00 o'clock. We're going to be in room 1E-245, and

14 we're starting at 9:00 o'clock to give some additional

15 time for a proposal to be put together and presented at

16 that time.

17 Is it -- are there other items on the agenda,

18 or is that going to take the remainder of the day in

19 reviewing and discussing that proposal?

20 MR. CYMBALSKY: Well, from my point of view, I

21 think this is where the fun starts, right?

22 I mean -- well, people will go to bed with

23 expectations, I'm sure. Depends on how many IPAs we

24 quaff before bed. No, but honestly -- so I expect there,

25 you know, there will be reaction and counter-reaction,
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1 and --

2 MR. RAMIREZ: So this will be the basis of our

3 discussion, then.

4 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yeah, I think so. Look, I

5 mean, the group was chartered to come in here to

6 negotiate in good faith, and that's -- that's what we

7 expect tomorrow to hear. So --

8 MR. RAMIREZ: Right. Great. And then just a

9 -- literally a housekeeping issue. Clean the house,

10 right, so if you could remove your trash with you, just

11 toss it out there on the way out, because we usually get

12 out of here pretty late, and I'm not sure how the

13 cleaning service works, but we were asked, if you could,

14 keep it clean. Make some more room for some more bottles

15 there tomorrow. That would be great.

16 All right. So anyone have any other comments?

17 All right. We'll see you at 9:00 o'clock. Thank you.

18 (End of audio.)

19

20

21

22

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1 CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER 

2 

3 I, Kylie S. Shepherd, Certified Shorthand 

4 Reporter, CERTIFY I was authorized to transcribe the 

5 proceedings, and the foregoing transcript is a true and 

6 accurate record. 

7 I FURTHER CERTIFY that I am not a relative, 

s employee, attorney, or counsel of any of the parties, nor 

9 am I a relative or employee of any of the parties' 

10 attorney or counsel connected with the action, nor am I 

11 financially interested in the action. 

12 Dated this 3rd day of June, 2015. 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

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20 

21 

22 

23 

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202-220-4158 

tr ) . )4:ie S. Shepherd 

Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 

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A

a-ha 52:12

abbreviation

6:24

ability 24:15

24:22 188:19

able 25:8 44:4

44:6 54:9

61:11 63:20

69:22 77:7

80:22,24

81:16 84:17

84:21,23,25

88:18 95:15

104:9 106:19

109:5,8

110:22

114:14

115:21

133:23

139:23 144:7

160:15,20

163:8 164:4

178:23

186:18 188:9

202:1

above 32:12

35:16 36:10

37:14 49:9

49:16 55:11

56:13 73:21

78:1 134:9

174:22,23

absence 78:2

170:16

absent 172:10

absolute 50:1

183:2

absolutely

93:13

AC 22:3 34:17

accelerated

178:19

accent 158:5

acceptable

177:13,25

178:1 179:4

179:5 180:3

access 18:18

according

22:18 23:14

account 30:3

accounted

168:1 169:5

192:4

accounting

140:4 150:24

accumulated

151:19

accurate 205:6

accurately

44:7 59:3,9

97:12

ACEEE 3:22

achievable

101:17

achieve

178:23

acknowledg...

143:7

acronym 6:24

21:20

across 30:10

42:22 48:5,7

101:6 125:8

150:22 151:7

151:20 152:4

152:7,8,9,9

153:24

154:21

155:14

173:20

action 205:10

205:11

activity 147:17

actual 20:6

31:3 39:15

59:6 110:5

165:20

199:20

actually 14:12

17:2,17

24:15,24

25:1 30:11

30:17,18,19

36:22 37:19

38:13 39:20

40:5,23 41:2

41:3,14

43:23 44:25

48:2 51:9,21

56:25 57:15

59:10 60:11

62:13 63:2

69:19 79:25

83:15,24

90:19 121:16

122:5,6

126:20 128:2

134:13 140:1

147:11 149:6

159:20

162:25

174:10 176:8

186:23

187:23 191:6

191:7,7,14

192:3,7

195:1,21

200:19 201:5

201:9,12

Adam 2:8 4:15

adapter 71:20

72:13,18

73:6,23 74:1

76:1,22,23

77:1,3

adapters

70:21 72:25

add 33:19

88:13 128:21

160:23

170:14 184:7

202:4

added 22:5

72:6 76:21

103:18 165:5

adding 40:19

83:10 97:24

addition 16:12

38:18 137:19

165:5

additional

10:8 12:16

15:9 40:14

115:24 117:5

118:19

119:25 122:5

124:7,8,10

125:16

163:16,24

165:6 169:4

183:16,16

190:16

203:14

Additionally

164:18

address 56:19

70:21 179:15

adds 153:10

187:22

adjacent 92:22

adjust 59:8

124:18

adjusted 23:19

23:19 161:21

adjustment

9:25

adopt 65:4

68:11 97:12

112:2 172:7

190:25

193:20

194:16

adopted 65:17

65:18,22

112:15,16,20

141:20

171:23

190:23 202:7

adoption

173:15

advancing

108:16

advantageous

132:10

advertised

101:17

advocate's

89:4 200:11

advocates

179:7 182:9

AEMTCA

194:6

AEO 153:7

affect 115:23

119:24 135:2

135:3 146:25

194:22

affected 8:2

13:9

affects 11:24

25:18 26:2

29:14 62:10

after 7:9 29:16

71:5 83:19

105:18

106:12 142:9

150:23 151:1

151:4 163:6

163:12

188:24

afternoon

114:9,11,14

114:17

AFUE 7:18

again 3:7 5:23

8:4,19 9:11

11:15 12:1
Meeting June 1, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

2

12:13 13:20

13:23 14:7

15:1,5,11,18

15:19,20

17:10,21

20:25 21:1,4

21:11,12

22:17 23:14

23:14,16

24:2,8 25:14

28:16 29:5

32:9 38:10

38:18,18

39:9,24 42:2

42:20 43:11

44:13,23

45:9 47:18

49:14 50:1

52:24 53:25

54:25 58:14

58:18 60:5

60:25 63:9

71:21 72:15

73:14 81:14

81:19 84:19

89:1,9 94:25

99:8 101:25

111:13 121:7

127:24

128:16,23

132:25

133:12,13,15

134:17 135:6

135:20

141:22

144:16 145:1

148:17 150:9

151:25

152:17 153:7

155:21 156:3

157:20 160:9

161:3 164:16

167:11,16

168:19

181:13

183:10

187:17 188:4

194:17

against 39:1,1

104:10

167:21

age 53:13,16

agencies

182:9

agency 65:24

67:14 112:22

agenda 106:1

203:17

aggregate

131:25

149:19 154:3

154:19

aggregated

18:12,20

150:2

ago 30:14 75:4

86:1 115:8

187:21

190:21

agree 63:13

75:19 91:5

138:11

141:15 144:8

144:9 167:15

168:6 172:16

186:15 190:4

203:6

agreed 54:18

179:8

agreement

18:5 118:11

Ah 67:8

ahead 15:15

19:1 34:8

73:12 90:6

124:25 189:7

189:15

AHRI 3:17 7:15

10:4 16:12

22:25 23:9

23:19 24:12

26:20 27:11

29:10 30:8

49:7,15,23

64:4 84:5

94:14,20,21

120:24 126:7

128:8 130:8

134:4 174:2

174:3 199:12

201:2

AHRI's 66:9

aimed 192:8

air 1:1 3:15 8:6

16:15,15,15

16:20,21,21

17:1,2 20:15

20:17,20

21:2,8 22:6

22:20,24

23:10,11,11

23:13,13,17

23:22,24,25

24:16,21,22

25:1,9 27:6,9

27:24 28:2

28:12,22,23

28:23 30:4

30:24 35:13

35:16 36:5

37:25 39:7,8

39:10,14,15

39:15,16,22

40:9 57:16

58:2,3 60:16

65:16 80:12

80:15 81:12

81:21 83:7

91:25 93:21

95:15 97:21

100:6 101:1

101:1,5,11

101:12

112:14 120:7

140:23

146:10

147:22 148:5

148:8 157:17

170:3 179:10

183:22 184:1

197:24 198:2

202:5

air-cooled

24:9 83:3,5

97:20

airflow 100:11

103:9,11,13

103:22 104:8

104:13,19

Alcia 2:12 4:17

Alex 3:25 4:14

align 56:3

179:17

alignment

196:6

all 4:25 10:24

11:10,18,22

13:21 15:1,3

15:6,12,20

17:9,23

19:16 27:2,5

32:23,23

33:10 39:24

40:4,9 41:16

45:6 47:16

48:5,21

49:19,21,22

49:25 50:15

52:23 54:20

55:10,18

57:10 59:1

60:10,10,11

61:10,18,19

61:20 62:2,3

62:3,9,17

63:9,13,14

65:10,21

66:3,20

67:12 69:16

69:24 72:1

72:14 73:18

74:3 76:9,21

80:19 83:20

94:11 95:2

96:23 97:20

100:5 101:18

102:7 105:15

105:25 106:5

106:8 108:3

108:17

109:15 112:8

112:19 113:2

113:6,20

122:13,14,15

123:5 125:3

126:25

127:18,19

129:8,10

131:16,21,22

133:13 134:3

144:3,6

148:10,17

150:4,22

152:4,7,8,9

153:24

155:11,17

157:1,24

164:8 169:3

169:9 170:6

171:18 172:4

172:17

173:20 174:8

176:23 177:7

180:5,6

181:2,5,6

183:20

185:14,22

186:19

193:12

194:14 201:3
Meeting June 1, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

3

203:6,8,12

204:16,17

Allied 3:21

28:24 55:21

58:13 175:16

189:17 200:5

201:14

allocated 17:8

17:9 22:12

allow 89:3

92:22 104:12

191:3

allows 192:11

ally 102:1

almost 39:6

46:20 152:21

157:19

184:14,16

alone 197:16

197:17

along 55:5

111:2 146:18

188:18

193:12 199:6

already 75:25

77:15,20

79:9,18

85:11 91:19

111:7 119:10

119:13,16

127:7 159:16

161:15

170:20 173:2

173:9 174:19

175:2 177:9

187:14

189:12

also 11:9,21

12:16 18:22

21:10 23:9

24:10 33:21

38:22 39:20

40:13,19,24

48:25 56:11

57:8 71:6,8

71:11 75:1

80:2 81:2,15

88:19 89:22

90:12 92:18

94:8 97:14

100:15 103:8

108:10 121:1

127:3 139:6

143:24

147:23 150:1

152:11 157:5

159:3 160:5

167:13

176:19

178:15 181:9

186:11

187:21,22

188:8 189:3

193:4

alternative

65:6 112:4

118:5 124:5

124:11

125:21

alternatively

189:1

although 8:16

127:2 180:24

always 24:5

48:25 49:3

54:24 141:7

142:5,12

am 103:17

113:19 180:4

180:4 205:7

205:9,10

amendments

194:6

America 3:16

amongst

31:13 72:4

amount 8:10

8:13,18 9:19

11:19 12:18

16:14 34:19

53:21 59:14

115:24 117:5

141:12 170:7

176:20 180:2

183:3 187:1

analogy 96:12

analyses

115:19

122:10

124:10

159:15

analysis 5:25

6:4 8:4 10:10

10:17,19,19

10:22 11:6

13:23 15:16

17:12,24

19:13 20:13

20:18 21:1

22:13 23:20

25:6,21,24

26:5 29:3,4

32:24 33:12

33:12 34:16

34:19 40:25

42:21 43:22

44:11,11,15

47:6,24 51:6

52:7,7 55:20

55:22 57:14

57:21 58:18

59:4 62:9

63:14 70:13

70:14,22,24

71:20 72:14

74:20 77:13

77:25 78:2,8

101:21

107:22

109:11,12

113:9 115:5

117:12,23

118:6,8,20

119:24 120:4

122:4 123:17

123:18,20

128:9 133:24

134:12,21

136:2 137:2

145:9 146:6

149:12,14

150:7,25

151:2,9,20

152:5 159:1

159:17,19,23

159:24 161:5

161:8 181:21

185:24 186:5

186:9,16

193:20 194:9

194:14,17

196:21 199:2

199:4,15

analytical

117:18

analyze 117:22

analyzed 63:5

125:13

129:11

140:25

ancient 202:17

and/or 184:21

Andrew 1:10

3:9,13 9:23

14:24 50:11

52:5,9 62:13

64:15 67:1

78:10 84:7,8

86:17 89:9

98:20 99:7

108:13

110:15 114:4

114:15

116:22

117:10

121:12

122:20

136:24

138:22

141:22

142:22

143:15 171:6

178:2 181:2

187:12

202:11

Andrew's 62:7

annual 136:5

150:12

151:15

152:17

160:14,23

161:1

another 7:7

25:11 30:16

41:1,7 47:19

72:6 85:14

100:16

105:16

107:19 118:9

127:3 128:21

172:5,8

173:24 190:6

190:20

198:17

answer 5:14

63:22 66:5

131:17 132:6

132:13

133:19 181:3

answer's

19:17

answered

64:19

answers 64:23

anxious 108:9

anybody 18:13

anyone 6:19

9:21 147:6

203:9 204:16

anything 31:24
Meeting June 1, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

4

33:21,22

106:15

122:20 124:4

130:7,24

149:4 172:10

177:16

193:25 202:3

anyway 34:9

123:15 128:5

Anyways

160:7

apologies 14:5

14:8

apologize 45:1

apparently

7:17,17,19

155:11

198:20

appealing

89:23

appear 6:10

Appliance

3:13

applicable

132:16

application

24:23 87:22

applications

81:15 88:5

93:19 147:5

applied 70:24

72:3 87:16

178:4

apply 89:18,20

100:8 151:14

appreciate

18:14 49:15

90:19 134:3

approach 31:7

55:8 70:20

71:21 72:3

75:13,14,19

96:20,23

97:6 118:13

118:17,18

150:22

175:19

180:14 185:9

approaches

58:22 65:10

65:14 112:9

112:11

appropriate

75:14 96:12

97:11 176:6

176:17 189:2

approve 68:3

area 48:17

53:15 59:14

72:21 73:4

82:5 148:1,2

148:7

areas 65:14

72:22 74:3

76:14 112:12

129:4,14

194:22

aren't 60:14

62:18,18

89:13 170:4

arguing 58:9

arm 198:6

Armen 2:9

4:16

Armstrong 1:5

around 5:10

11:17 13:2,5

17:17 28:19

46:16 75:9

75:10,11

83:14 120:23

134:7 138:2

138:24 148:2

148:20

174:23

179:14

180:13

185:15

193:22 194:3

200:11

201:16

around-the-...

100:13

arranged 81:9

arrives 45:18

45:19

artificial

197:23

Ashley 1:5

ASHRAE 27:23

115:11 121:9

122:1 168:11

169:2,3,25

170:19,22

171:8,10,21

171:22

172:15 173:2

173:23

189:10 190:5

190:8,11,15

190:23

193:18,20,22

194:4,11,16

ask 35:12

111:10 116:7

120:20

124:13

165:17

178:24

200:21

asked 70:10

79:21 121:21

164:18

168:22

204:13

asking 103:17

109:5 119:15

132:4 179:24

180:4 192:2

ASRAC 1:1

65:23 68:2,3

68:4,24

112:21

assembled

82:11

assess 159:1

assessment

201:20

assign 33:7

assigned 32:1

32:12,23,24

62:16 71:23

associated

71:8 72:22

86:17 115:24

125:11

140:15

150:24

168:25 169:9

191:1

assume

133:17 142:1

172:10

assumed

77:17 148:14

164:16,25

186:24

assumes 46:9

assuming

20:14 57:14

57:21 77:25

131:22

166:11

assumption

21:2,16

164:4 172:10

172:12

assumptions

186:7 187:11

assures 90:2

asterisk

129:21

130:12,24

200:10,16

asterisked

130:3,8,10

asterisks

200:6

attached 59:20

attain 77:7

attempt

117:21

attempting

125:18

attendance

3:5,7

attention

183:4

attorney 205:8

205:10

attorneys

109:13 110:8

attractive 43:3

43:4,5 45:6

attractiveness

44:23

attributes 98:2

audio 2:25

204:18

authority

65:15,25

67:15 68:15

112:13,23

201:25

authorized

46:6 205:4

availability

7:17

available

18:12 49:23

67:2 201:3

average 8:7,19

16:3,7,9

17:15 34:17

39:5 41:22

43:6,8 44:14

44:14 48:13

48:14,19

52:14,24

53:4,7,9
Meeting June 1, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

5

135:3 147:24

150:11,11

152:6,7,18

169:7 185:25

185:25 186:3

averages 44:9

115:10

avoid 95:5

aware 83:23

93:20 94:15

Awareness

3:14

away 59:7 88:9

192:22 193:1

193:3,7

awful 40:1

193:7

awkward

100:22

B

B 41:2 74:2

102:3

back 3:8 5:1

5:25 10:17

12:6 43:16

46:14,16,21

47:18 55:17

62:16 63:9

75:17 81:24

88:10,10

89:8 93:17

94:1,16

95:12 101:5

101:8 106:12

106:13,16

107:19 111:9

114:19,23

116:21

118:15 128:8

128:9 131:19

136:13,25

138:4 143:25

145:22

147:16

148:18

154:16 155:5

155:10,24

156:13 157:6

157:9,16,19

157:20

158:19

160:24

165:19

166:21

169:14 170:8

174:7 181:13

188:4,10

193:18

203:11

back-of-the-...

155:20

backfilled

147:18

background

145:11

backup 186:24

backwards

40:23

bad 60:9

baked 187:14

balance

109:17

156:13 178:6

178:25 179:3

179:4,5

balances

180:14

balancing

178:8

Bantle 1:6 3:2

3:3,11 4:20

46:12,20

47:1 106:11

106:13

114:23 157:3

158:18,21

bar 78:11

135:17

barrier 109:5,6

base 14:17,17

50:12 56:13

58:17 72:21

72:22 73:4

74:3 76:14

77:15 83:17

136:13,14,15

151:11,23

163:14 166:4

167:18,21

168:18

175:17

192:13

base-case

135:1 137:18

140:13

152:18,20

162:18

182:24 188:6

base-efficie...

166:2

based 7:13

10:4 11:2

17:12,25

21:1 22:24

25:21 26:20

27:11 30:8

33:10 52:7

56:7 59:12

59:13 61:1

62:3 64:3

75:19 81:25

83:16 84:12

84:21 95:11

101:19

107:16

109:11 125:5

125:13

127:11

145:22

148:13 160:1

161:3,6,9,11

161:11 164:2

164:16 165:8

166:15

175:11

186:11 188:8

188:17 190:6

195:13

baseline 11:17

11:18 13:3

13:14 15:21

16:6 17:16

20:14,17,19

20:22 21:3,6

28:10 32:2

39:12,19,23

40:12 76:25

77:8 186:6

basement

81:18

basic 144:3,9

basically 22:3

30:8,8 35:15

37:7,24 51:3

77:23 100:5

100:10

113:23

122:22

129:19 154:1

160:13,13

163:4

basis 16:7,9

56:6 63:18

64:5 115:4

148:25 164:5

194:17 204:2

Battaglia 1:7

4:11,11

bear 19:17

bed 203:22,24

before 6:20

15:19,22

43:12 47:2

78:16 106:15

106:16

107:13

111:23

115:11

116:19 122:2

124:23,23

138:9 139:8

147:11

158:21 163:5

163:12 172:5

180:22

194:20

201:15

203:24

begin 63:12

64:5 88:22

beginning

132:20

beginnings

160:14

behavior 48:25

145:8

behind 66:19

beige 160:8

being 5:13

7:15 13:9

24:8,11 40:9

55:23 66:14

84:17,21,23

87:16 88:18

91:1 101:17

103:4 109:5

111:7 121:21

123:24

133:23

143:11 168:1

176:6 182:16

belief 144:3

believe 12:14

14:7 28:18

31:4,4 85:21

102:8 143:25

148:11,12

156:18 157:4

186:14,17
Meeting June 1, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

6

193:8 200:12

below 113:24

114:2 174:23

beneficial 8:18

benefits 150:3

155:9 181:9

182:10

Berkeley 4:8

29:19

best 25:19

66:25 69:19

169:20,22

174:7,11,16

176:5,11,12

176:14,16,18

200:24

best-case

57:22

best-case-ty...

48:11

better 38:13

39:1 43:18

43:18 48:3

84:9 106:6

148:12

159:12

169:20,22

174:7,11,16

174:22,23

176:5,11,12

176:16,18

177:4 183:23

195:24

200:24

between 26:24

31:22 32:15

38:19 47:17

47:25 68:19

76:10 115:3

121:3 133:3

148:19

156:13

169:24 171:9

175:17

191:18 196:6

199:8 202:24

beyond 13:24

15:5 173:11

179:11

193:25

big 6:14 16:11

19:13 36:17

59:18 61:15

88:4 94:16

133:9 134:12

139:3 143:11

bigger 19:5

85:5,8,13

bill 55:2

billion 183:7,9

bills 54:24

bin 31:3,11,11

31:12,18,24

32:5,10,20

bins 30:12,13

30:14,17,21

31:17 199:14

199:16

bit 5:12 6:11

6:19 9:12

11:18 12:21

16:25 17:4

17:20 21:21

30:19 38:23

43:4 45:4

72:7 77:24

96:22 97:1

97:25 100:22

110:2,4

114:10 120:7

154:15 163:1

167:9 173:9

176:7 187:22

195:7

blow 103:1

104:8

blowers

180:19

183:21

184:13 185:4

blue 78:13

127:13,17

160:9

board 42:23

48:8 125:8

179:22

Bob 2:4 4:2

10:2 25:20

50:23 62:22

78:24 79:20

82:7 84:1

87:7 88:13

90:19 94:5

94:12 100:4

102:11

105:12,15

121:12,22

127:12

165:24

167:23 168:6

169:16

172:16 193:2

Bob's 101:9

102:1

boom 139:14

borderline

201:8

Boston 5:8

both 5:14 9:4

12:19 65:5

65:17 80:11

83:7,21 85:3

85:4 101:12

102:6,7

112:3,15

151:23

bottles 204:14

bottom 55:11

71:24 79:12

81:10 96:19

142:1 155:16

bought 49:2

bounds 61:23

62:8 187:11

box 59:18

61:15

boxes 24:21

160:8,9

brain 45:4

branches

148:4,5

brands 94:5

break 36:3

45:7,20

66:24 70:1

142:18 157:4

157:5 201:15

breakdown

6:15 23:7

breaks 171:7

bridge 184:17

brief 157:4

briefly 124:2

bring 3:9 5:18

34:15 87:17

93:17 120:23

157:6

bringing 177:6

183:16

brings 101:16

171:1,6

broad 202:20

BTU 20:1 83:3

BTUs 20:1

84:10

buckets

174:14

bugging 96:16

build 57:17

145:7 149:17

176:19

188:21

building 16:23

22:7,7,9,13

22:15,18,24

23:3,4,20,22

24:15,20

27:25 28:13

30:2 35:11

51:17 56:4

59:12,24

81:17 87:18

88:9 139:4

146:10

190:17

192:12 198:2

buildings 8:14

8:16,19 17:1

22:16 23:2,7

23:8,16,17

25:13 27:7

27:10,13

39:8,11 40:2

40:9,10 42:2

87:20,21

88:2,20

120:11

135:11,15

136:21

147:12,15

built 147:10,12

bullet 21:17

23:8 94:2

bunch 37:9

41:17 148:2

burden 159:4

176:22 177:6

179:9,18,25

181:15 182:8

182:19 184:5

burned 151:18

businesses

180:6

bust 139:14

button 73:17

buy 49:1,6

55:2 122:18

153:2

buying 51:11
Meeting June 1, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

7

C

C 1:4 2:1 3:1

CA 22:2

cabinet 198:11

calculate

151:15

177:12,19

179:25

calculated

115:15

calculating

62:9 124:24

125:1,2,21

calculation

126:2 153:13

155:4

calculations

71:13 116:13

117:7 118:16

124:8 194:23

California 3:24

27:24 172:23

173:1

call 5:2 29:6

35:2 43:17

150:17 157:4

157:21

169:20

called 62:25

79:17 150:20

179:10

calls 178:5

came 8:6 10:4

47:10 62:16

63:10 67:20

85:25,25

174:22

179:21 194:6

196:5

canceled 5:9

candidate

76:23

capability

83:18

capable 94:11

capacities

71:23 72:1

76:13,15

capacity 72:5

76:6,9 83:2

84:9 159:4

capacity-wise

92:19

capital 160:24

160:25

163:13 167:3

167:17 195:1

capture 57:10

captured

56:20 57:24

care 26:6

120:11

123:13 132:8

203:8

carefully 67:18

carried 81:17

Carrier 4:2

10:2 25:20

41:6 50:23

71:3 79:21

95:16 115:13

117:3 121:22

125:10

127:12

165:25 191:9

193:2 199:1

carries 101:10

carry 44:7

case 14:17,17

44:17 49:3,4

50:12 51:7

59:6 69:4,4

121:13 131:6

136:13,14,15

138:23

140:14

144:11

151:11,12,23

151:24

163:18,19

167:18,21

183:1 184:19

185:18

193:23

196:15

cases 76:7

83:4

cash 161:1,4,7

186:21

catalog 74:23

cataloged

74:24

catch 198:22

categories

125:19

129:10,12

134:9 190:17

category 31:1

34:18,23

97:22

caucus 62:15

62:15 114:10

114:12,14,21

caucusing

107:10

caught 70:9

causal 145:6

causation

144:20

cause 55:15

107:24

cautious 60:3

CAV 21:17

22:7 25:13

26:17 27:13

42:1,8,12

CBECS 16:25

23:6,16 24:3

24:8,14

25:12

CC&E 165:6

165:10

ceiling 80:5

81:3,5 82:22

cell 132:3

Census 128:13

128:13,19

central 65:16

112:14

centrifugal

80:23 89:25

centrifugals

90:1

certain 18:19

42:11,12

59:14 65:2

97:22 111:25

126:15

133:21 164:2

187:11

189:17,18

191:13

192:15,18

193:4 200:7

certainly 18:12

21:10 29:2

63:10,10

66:8 74:10

93:25 109:3

116:3 141:15

171:3 173:21

178:19,21

181:20

187:10 193:2

194:23

certainty 24:4

CERTIFICATE

205:1

certification

105:2 165:11

165:13,22

certified 99:10

99:17 205:3

CERTIFY

205:4,7

cetera 98:17

99:23 115:16

152:10 154:4

154:5

Chad 164:12

challenge

47:20 184:4

challenges

196:4

challenging

195:7

chance 196:17

Chandara 1:12

change 8:3

12:12 16:11

25:6 29:23

30:2 45:12

48:6 50:1

55:15 117:14

120:3 121:15

137:9,12,22

137:23 139:1

140:12

148:19 152:1

154:18 162:1

162:2 165:25

169:9 170:12

182:15 183:3

183:5 184:25

185:2 186:18

186:19

changed 8:20

9:15 12:7

77:10 161:8

161:12,13,14

162:6,14,15

162:20

201:20

changes 15:2

15:10 41:25

49:20 63:15

70:18 71:15

71:19 147:3

149:24 151:8
Meeting June 1, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

8

151:12

152:14

156:15

160:25

161:15

169:10 186:8

194:12 195:4

195:22

changing

26:12 39:7

41:2 52:18

120:3

channels

135:10

Chapter 144:5

characteristi...

39:12 91:10

charge 63:12

charged 62:1

Charlie 1:18

3:15 67:19

chart 26:8

35:17 42:6

71:24 77:4

78:6 94:3

185:17 188:8

chartered

204:5

charts 72:15

74:14

chatting 67:20

cheap 20:8

check 66:12

104:14

109:17,17

132:7,8

141:7,8

chevrons

150:9

chillers 145:17

Chinese

154:15

choice 21:11

29:6 171:20

choices 58:20

99:12 133:21

161:23

choose 51:21

154:1

chooses 147:1

choosing

153:24

181:16

chose 72:11

85:2 131:5

162:13

chosen 56:12

Chris 1:16

158:23

165:10

176:21 183:6

185:16

187:12

196:19

Christopher

4:10

circle 5:25

cited 68:15

165:23

201:17

clarification

57:4 78:10

82:9 99:17

clarify 124:3

198:18

clarifying

136:7 162:9

clarity 67:7,8

146:5

class 17:16

70:25 71:18

72:6 77:10

79:22 83:13

83:20 87:9

89:2 91:20

91:23 92:5

92:10,15

93:6,21

154:4 189:3

classes 9:4

20:12 42:8,9

70:23 71:22

72:1,9 96:9

135:21

153:25 154:2

154:12,21

155:15,17

classroom

92:7 95:6

classrooms

88:15

clean 204:9,14

cleaning

204:13

clear 66:7

77:22 96:25

109:16

163:25

164:24

193:19

clear-cut

155:8

clearly 87:7,11

89:1 93:19

96:24 100:1

109:20 194:9

194:16

click 79:16

climate 54:18

climate's

53:20

clip 66:25

106:22

close 136:5

155:23

closer 8:8

87:17 189:25

closing 5:4

194:19 203:9

clothes 107:7

112:16

clumsy 103:16

clustered 32:5

32:7

co-modificat...

192:10

coalesce 66:8

codes 27:25

28:13 172:7

190:17

COGS 160:12

160:16

coil 60:17

80:15 82:4

86:18,22

101:3,12

coils 83:7

collapse 192:9

collapses

166:24

colleagues

114:20

collected 75:1

column 22:20

26:16,16

94:25 95:20

115:10

129:20 160:8

160:9

columns 22:10

26:17,25

115:11 200:7

combination

159:22

combine

154:21

come 7:16

24:22 34:20

40:5 46:14

46:16 48:1

67:24 69:11

69:22 88:10

88:10 89:12

97:5 113:18

116:21

117:17

125:20

150:15 153:6

156:13

159:15,17,18

159:19

179:16

180:13,15

189:21 190:6

194:10

196:15 204:5

comes 20:3

21:9 24:4,7

80:15 101:4

121:8 137:10

149:5 153:17

165:2 167:3

169:12 174:2

190:5 195:19

comfort 89:13

comfortable

43:25

coming 53:12

59:7 68:9

96:5 139:17

143:25

148:18 152:2

152:17

163:19 170:1

173:7 174:1

180:12 185:5

commend

141:8

comment

47:18 50:24

50:24 51:11

51:24 62:12

73:10 86:9

127:9 141:24

176:5 203:10

comments

9:22 10:8

15:13 45:8

46:22,23

52:2 55:18
Meeting June 1, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

9

87:2 106:14

158:22

164:22 188:4

194:19,21

204:16

commercial

1:1 8:6 36:18

37:4 57:5

97:20 139:4

146:9 147:10

154:24 170:3

170:4 183:21

183:22

197:24,25

198:2

committee

65:23 67:24

68:1,24

74:11 94:2

112:21

180:11

common 48:19

companies

149:1 191:9

company

47:19 84:14

91:7 122:25

123:1,2,3,10

123:11,12

132:13

133:21 149:3

149:9 172:14

185:20 186:1

186:2,3,3

company's

47:20 66:9

133:17

compare

140:6 191:2

compared

20:2 86:7

compares

127:6

comparing

176:2

comparison

11:16 26:14

203:2

competitor

164:3

complete

168:13

completely

32:12 98:16

131:16

132:14 140:3

160:1

completion

134:20

compliance

65:6 112:4

163:9 165:13

166:13

complicated

155:22

comply 27:25

component

71:12 115:14

116:12

184:16

components

81:9 141:13

184:1,2

comport 9:25

47:10

composition

8:24

compression

176:13

188:19

compressor

21:10 39:21

82:3 144:13

152:16

computer

46:13 79:8

93:19,20,20

concentric

61:4,10,14

61:18

concept

104:15

concepts

65:21 112:19

concern 101:5

124:3 149:2

190:3

concerned

54:24 59:2

87:8 89:4

127:4 133:18

concerns

63:23 65:2

179:15

concur 166:23

condenser

39:20 80:12

80:14 81:10

82:2 83:7

89:22 92:16

93:9 97:14

100:22,25

condensers

83:3,4,6

condensing

9:20 101:11

condition

61:22

conditioner

81:22 91:25

101:1,1

202:6

conditioners

1:1 8:6 65:16

93:21 112:15

140:24

157:17

179:11

197:25

conditioning

3:16 30:24

80:13 97:21

101:11

146:10

147:23 148:5

conditions

63:2

conduct 199:1

199:4

conducted

20:14 21:1

confident

155:23

confidential

129:22 132:2

160:2

confidentiality

129:15

configuration

79:25 81:7

83:22,25

93:24 95:11

101:24

configuratio...

80:1 87:5

94:11

confirms

184:1

confused 92:3

123:10

confusion

95:5 160:5

164:23 165:4

conjecture

115:23

conjectures

117:3

conjunction

140:21

connected

60:14,15

101:12

205:10

connection

100:16

connections

100:12

Connolly 2:13

4:17

consensus

65:3,7,12,20

67:17,24

68:1,3,9 69:3

69:8 75:13

112:1,6,10

112:18

123:21

consequently

146:25

conservation

169:10,11

195:22

201:19

conservatism

33:2

consider

40:25 47:11

65:7,24

66:10 67:11

67:13,13,18

69:16,16

73:23 93:22

97:14,24

112:5,22

180:2

consideration

58:19 60:1

97:6

considered

77:13

considering

86:14 91:1

179:3

consistency

31:6

consistent

103:4

constant

16:14,20

17:1 20:15
Meeting June 1, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

10

21:2,8 23:11

27:6 37:5,19

39:7,14,16

39:22 40:9

137:12 144:2

151:7

consternation

160:4 164:22

constrained

82:22

constraint

85:5 86:20

construction

77:3 81:23

89:16 135:11

135:16

136:22 139:2

146:16,17,19

146:24

147:16

consultant

4:12 129:24

consultants

62:24 131:14

199:13

consumer

29:6 55:9

149:14

150:17 152:4

152:22

consumers

8:13 29:24

43:7,9 51:2

152:25

consumption

14:1 16:23

39:16,19

151:15 153:9

171:4 181:11

context 191:20

continually

156:8

continue 28:3

63:20 64:1

102:25 164:4

174:11

194:13

continued 2:1

65:11 112:9

141:16

continues

28:11 35:15

193:17

continuous

36:6

Contractors

3:16

conventiona...

87:16

conventions

140:4

conversation

114:16

157:12

188:17,24

conversations

108:17

145:14

conversion

10:12,21,24

11:2,7 13:3

13:22,24

15:3,7,18,20

15:22 16:3,6

16:10 17:8,9

17:11 19:22

38:20 41:9

41:25 43:2

45:16 134:25

151:17

152:10 153:8

153:16

159:21,25

160:4 161:13

161:17,22

162:2 164:21

164:23 165:1

165:5 167:4

167:6,13,17

169:8 185:25

186:12

187:16,17,25

188:5 189:19

194:24,24

195:2,6,12

195:15,15

conversions

178:22

198:19

convert 41:1

151:17

171:18

converted

20:5 88:21

conveying

44:13

cooling 12:16

12:19 48:17

56:23 83:2

127:14

192:15,17

coordinate

182:14

copy 66:7

106:19 109:4

110:23

corner 155:20

correct 14:22

18:10 26:19

26:21 44:9

48:14 57:1

67:22 74:20

75:5 110:1

132:11 141:2

144:19

148:15 156:5

162:22

167:19,22

corrected

95:17

correcting

107:8

correction

107:4

correctly 13:1

13:2 28:19

55:20 92:15

140:6

correlation

144:20,22

145:9

correlations

70:18

correspondi...

121:1,2

corridor 88:14

corridors

88:16

cost 8:10,12

8:16,17,19

10:19 11:4

11:25 12:1

15:24 16:3

17:9,24 19:6

19:6,7,10,14

19:15,21,24

20:1,2,3,7

21:13 22:13

23:20 29:3

38:15,24

41:14 43:7,9

44:3,14,15

47:7 48:5

49:25 50:11

51:2,11,14

55:1,10,14

71:19 75:1

86:16,23

135:2,3

137:19,20,22

141:1 149:19

149:20,25

150:1,11

151:24,25,25

152:25 153:1

156:14,25

160:17 163:8

164:21 165:5

165:15,18,20

168:13,15

169:8 174:18

175:6,6,13

184:10

186:10

187:17

195:24

cost-effective

184:7

cost-sensitive

29:24

costs 8:14

15:16 38:25

39:5 40:14

62:21 105:2

144:13 150:2

152:2,11

153:4 155:8

159:18,22,25

160:4,11,20

161:13,17,23

162:2,5

164:23 165:1

165:22 167:4

167:6,10,13

168:25 169:4

169:9 174:8

178:22

185:25

186:12,12

187:16,25

188:5 189:19

194:24,24

195:2,4,6,12

195:15,15

coughing

174:18

Coughlin 1:8

4:7,7 29:19

126:5,13

127:8,17,19
Meeting June 1, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

11

127:21

134:13 136:1

136:10,12,20

137:3,8

138:3,20,25

139:7,10,25

141:2,5,9

143:17,20,23

144:23 149:5

154:17 155:2

155:13 156:8

157:23 158:1

158:7,9,12

counsel 64:18

66:9,9

114:17 205:8

205:10

Counsel's 4:4

65:1

count 7:17,18

198:6

counted 7:20

151:4

counter-intu...

41:5

counter-rea...

203:25

country

193:16

couple 43:19

78:10 85:25

88:13 92:4

124:21

153:10 154:8

188:4 196:23

course 8:9

29:14 33:12

39:21 40:3

65:7 75:8

112:5 152:8

196:9 202:1

202:2

court 66:23

106:22

cover 126:18

165:6

covered 97:10

164:17

covering 102:6

covers 125:3

cranked 159:7

crash 139:3,9

142:16

create 151:10

153:21

creation 68:6

creative

108:18,19

credit 104:23

criteria 177:14

critical 180:7

196:21

cross 178:11

184:17

CSA 99:23

CUAC 127:2

135:8 156:17

196:7

CUACs 196:6

CUHP 135:9

cumulation

167:25

cumulative

135:24 136:2

155:14 159:4

167:20

176:22 177:6

180:2 181:15

182:8 183:11

184:4,11

curb 10:12,21

10:24 11:7

13:3,22,25

15:3,7,22

16:6,10 17:8

17:9,11 19:5

19:14,22

38:15,20

40:14,19

41:9,17,25

43:2 44:3,12

45:16 64:8

69:25 70:2,3

70:4,4,5,7,21

70:21 71:20

72:13,18,24

73:6,25 76:1

76:22,23

152:10

curbs 11:2

15:18,20

16:4 20:2

63:21 64:1

73:24 77:1,3

78:8 134:25

curiosity

162:24

curious 87:15

174:12

current 29:23

56:2 101:22

152:21

159:16

191:23

currently 60:6

84:4,14,15

84:19 97:10

curve 19:6

105:5 141:4

curves 71:19

72:10 75:1

118:16

140:20

customer

48:25 54:25

82:13

customers

8:16,18

52:16 55:13

81:25 163:9

cutting 85:17

CWAF 34:15

CWAF/CUAC

5:2

CWAFs 6:23

196:6

cycle 19:8

51:14 147:4

171:7

cycle-cost

49:2

cycles 20:9

139:14

Cymbalsky 1:9

4:6,6,25 7:7

34:1,4,8 36:3

43:15 46:6

47:15 48:21

49:5,12,14

50:9,13

51:10 56:18

57:6 58:5

66:2,17,23

67:3,8,16

68:13,18

69:6 70:7,16

86:11 90:18

90:24 91:11

96:13,17

102:21,24

103:3 106:20

111:18,22

113:12,15,19

113:22 114:2

123:6 125:4

125:22,25

130:14,18,23

131:1,18

132:19 133:8

145:13 146:3

146:21 147:6

148:10 154:6

155:7 157:13

158:10,16

174:6 175:1

175:24 176:2

177:9,16,22

181:13 182:4

184:13,23

185:2,9

193:11

198:16

203:20 204:4

D

D 3:1 75:21

76:11

damped

146:18

dangerous

142:5

Darlington 2:8

4:16

dash 21:17

130:12

data 6:11,13

16:12,12,13

16:13,17

17:2 18:2,19

18:25 20:11

20:16 23:9

23:14,15,18

23:23 24:3,3

24:12,14

25:12,17

26:20 27:11

27:17,18

28:21 29:9

29:10,18

30:8 34:16

43:23 46:14

49:8,14,20

49:23 58:14

64:4 74:13

74:23,24

94:4,14,20

101:19 115:9

118:8,25

119:1 121:9

121:23 123:7
Meeting June 1, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

12

124:17 125:6

126:6,9

127:5,7,22

127:23 128:7

128:7,11,12

128:13,19,21

129:8,9,13

129:14 131:2

131:11,21

132:1,11,22

133:22,24

134:4 135:22

138:4,5

139:20

143:19

145:12 146:4

152:19 153:3

159:6 181:21

183:9 188:21

188:25

199:12,18

201:13

database

201:2

Dated 205:12

dates 63:19

65:6 112:4

179:10,17

182:15 196:6

Dave 2:5 3:21

28:24 55:21

58:13 175:16

189:17 200:5

201:14 202:5

David 2:10

4:16 95:17

day 6:1 7:8,9

21:22 75:6

144:3,6

203:18

205:12

daylight

108:10

days 5:6 107:1

124:21 140:7

deadline 66:20

deal 45:23

59:22 185:6

dealing 124:6

debate 61:24

61:25 144:2

decide 72:11

73:23

decided 62:8

decides 82:13

deciding 74:8

decision 48:6

50:7 57:19

133:10

135:16

137:21

decisions

148:3 180:7

decline 63:1

141:1

declining

141:21

162:21

decreased

9:10

decreases

39:22

decreasing

9:9

deem 184:6

deep 86:22,22

define 95:11

defined 135:10

177:25 178:1

definitely

28:22 36:11

87:19 156:4

161:9

definition 71:2

79:22 81:22

83:5,13 87:6

89:12,13

90:14 91:25

92:2,10,12

92:21 93:13

95:4 96:24

97:5,18

101:9 103:17

183:17 184:8

184:10

definitions

98:21

degradations

115:15

del 2:15 4:17

115:13 126:1

deLaski 1:10

3:13,13 9:23

10:6 14:9,19

14:22 17:5

18:24 19:1

26:7,16,20

26:22,24

27:2 35:20

50:10 52:5,9

52:21 53:2

54:5 61:21

62:12 63:8

67:1,6,9,19

68:17,25

69:19 75:3,6

78:9,15,21

84:8,23

85:17,23

86:5,10 89:8

98:20 99:7

99:13 108:13

109:22

110:11,17

111:1,6,10

112:24 114:4

114:19,22

116:22 117:8

117:24

121:11,18

123:16 129:6

129:19,23

130:1,25

131:3,12

132:7 136:24

137:4,25

138:4,13

139:22

141:22 142:7

142:9,24

144:8 157:10

157:21,25

158:5,8

168:19

169:13 178:2

178:15 179:6

179:14

180:10 181:9

187:12 200:1

202:4,14,16

202:23

delayed 10:11

deliver 80:24

81:1 95:15

103:21

delta 199:8

demand 137:7

144:4,10,10

145:2,2,4

department

55:8 65:2,9

68:4,5

108:21

109:16

111:25 112:7

131:25 177:5

177:15 179:2

180:16

181:14

197:24 202:7

dependent

33:15 141:12

depending

80:18 84:5

149:23

193:20

depends 110:6

178:15

203:23

Depot 61:16

depreciation

160:24

depth 83:1

derived 128:12

describe 100:7

201:9

described

75:4 147:22

166:11

describes

100:5

describing

79:2 201:10

design 20:14

22:21 33:16

39:13,14,15

39:23 40:11

57:18,19

58:20 65:5

86:23 98:22

112:3 175:19

195:3,7,8,10

designate

22:11 108:22

designed

61:13,14

81:2,25 98:5

designs 22:15

35:22 40:11

117:11,15

detail 38:5

59:23 150:8

151:22

195:13

detailed 30:20

159:10

details 33:14

74:7

determine

98:23,24
Meeting June 1, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

13

117:23 122:4

150:16

177:13

179:24

determined

14:13

determining

16:18 23:3

178:6

Detlef 2:3 5:8

10:10,17,20

17:12 45:15

64:1 70:11

73:12 74:12

75:3,17 78:9

90:6,10 95:8

102:11,14

104:4,25

105:14,15,18

106:16

114:24 116:7

116:22 118:5

124:12 125:5

161:10

198:18

Detlef's 12:25

develop 29:12

75:1

developed

40:11 71:2

149:16

developing

78:25 96:24

108:15

devil 74:7

DFR 202:8,19

dialogue 5:15

Diane 2:11

4:16

Dick 31:15

60:9 172:4

dictates 16:22

difference

6:15 20:6,7

22:8 36:17

57:13 69:6

77:11 82:16

93:8 140:9

140:12 154:8

174:24

202:23

differences

17:6 47:12

47:12 121:10

191:17,18

different 10:13

27:8 35:22

38:23 50:17

53:6 57:11

62:16 69:5

72:16,17,23

80:1,10

91:22 92:20

93:5 94:5

98:16 115:22

117:1 121:21

121:24,25

124:17 125:7

129:10

135:10,21

139:19

140:18

142:20 147:8

148:14 152:4

152:7,8,9,14

153:24 154:1

154:2,3,11

154:12,21

156:16 162:4

175:14,19

178:18 184:7

185:6 187:8

193:13

194:22 195:8

197:25

differential

47:25 115:25

169:24

differentials

71:7 115:3

120:9 121:3

198:25

differentiate

176:15

192:23

differentiation

176:13

191:22

192:12

197:23

differentiator

95:25

differently

184:21

difficult 94:20

139:20 140:2

195:23

dig 196:17

digest 15:8

45:9,24

dimension

94:4

dinner 123:13

direct 65:15,24

67:14 68:14

69:1,4

112:12,22

159:3 197:6

197:18

201:25

directed 177:5

direction

49:20 85:15

148:15

directions

193:5,9

directly 117:7

directory 7:15

7:20 10:4

disagree 60:8

61:15 147:7

disallowed

202:15

discern 143:9

discernible

141:1

discerning

142:12

discharge

88:8

disclose 123:6

discomfort

63:24

disconcerted

62:13

disconcerting

107:18

discount

150:4,6

152:9 153:12

156:11,21

157:16 161:2

discounted

137:20

153:17 161:4

161:7 186:21

discounting

153:15

156:24

discrepancy

20:18

discuss 10:12

29:3 75:8

105:12

116:20 155:3

discussed

31:16 62:17

70:20 74:13

74:17 75:6

106:15

144:11

152:13

159:16

161:16

182:16

discussing

90:15 91:12

97:7 174:7

203:19

discussion

47:7 58:7

62:3 63:21

64:1 65:11

86:12 87:1

93:16 112:9

114:18 115:2

121:12

137:25 138:1

149:8 167:7

196:9 204:3

discussions

177:7

dishwasher

146:8

dishwashers

65:18 107:6

107:7

disproved

95:24

disregard

41:23

disregarded

42:3

disseminate

107:2

distinction

22:9 90:25

distribute

66:13

distributed

20:19 27:17

30:10 32:4

distributing

122:11

distribution

6:13 16:17

22:19,25

32:6 35:1

52:11,13,22

72:4 77:5
Meeting June 1, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

14

134:15,25

135:1 149:23

151:8,12

152:3 156:22

distributions

7:16 18:6

27:6,9 42:1

53:17

disturb 104:23

divergent

193:9

divide 31:12

divided 31:14

divulged

123:24 200:8

doable 24:17

document

182:10

DOE 4:4,6,24

43:15 47:15

47:24 56:7

56:18 64:18

64:25 65:23

91:1 106:21

112:11,21

122:1 132:19

150:22 154:6

157:6 165:20

174:6 189:11

191:19,23

192:11

193:14,24

195:22

201:17,22

DOE's 69:8

193:19

DOE-establi...

201:18

doing 21:4

44:5 54:16

54:16 57:23

75:24 93:25

116:25 124:9

139:23

140:21

155:19,20

173:5 180:12

193:25

dollar 150:17

150:21 164:2

181:22 183:2

187:1

dollar-per-ton

50:12

dollars 19:21

20:5,6 50:3

180:9 183:23

183:24

dominiums

141:18

door 85:13

doors 85:11

doorways

81:16 82:23

Doppel 1:11

3:18,18

59:11,11

60:25 66:16

99:16,16,20

111:5,8

170:11,11,14

dots 126:10

127:2,20,21

128:1 133:23

133:25

143:20

double 79:15

79:25 183:23

double-duct

81:21 93:4

double-duct...

79:23 80:2

81:8

downs 145:11

downstream

24:21

downturn

148:3

draft 79:22

81:21 105:16

156:4

dragged

146:18

dramatically

7:22 9:15

56:5

drastically

29:23 169:11

drew 33:16

drive 6:20

12:18 26:4

34:19 103:16

driven 55:1,23

137:6 142:1

driver 25:12

56:14 139:1

139:2,11,12

147:3

driving 131:12

drop 12:22

13:21 14:1

24:22 41:4

41:11 118:12

118:19 120:2

120:6 122:5

124:10

125:14,17

135:6,24

136:1,5

137:11

138:15,17,21

138:23

140:16

141:25 182:5

186:23,25

187:2 188:14

dropped

137:17

146:15,17

dropping

142:25

drops 118:21

124:7,14

125:11 136:4

drove 9:11

33:12

drudge 202:16

dry-cleaners

148:2

dual 11:17

65:17 112:15

dual-duct 71:2

dual-ducts

78:23 106:15

duct 59:14,19

60:10,14

79:15,25

83:8 88:8

93:9 100:6

100:12,16

ducted 80:11

80:16 83:8

97:13

due 5:9 9:4,7

12:17 15:2

20:25 29:8,8

129:15

135:15

137:22

139:15

during 36:3

150:25

168:16

dwell 72:20

dyslexic 21:22

E

E 1:4,4 2:1,1

3:1,1

e-mail 67:3

71:12 106:23

119:5 124:13

earlier 17:8,16

50:25 52:10

85:24 134:6

165:23

185:24

187:13,23

earn 163:16

easier 91:4

94:18 154:13

easily 102:2

easy 124:18

154:14

economic

145:11

147:17 148:3

economically

43:5 178:7

economics

144:23,25

147:4

economies

172:20

economy

142:2,9,16

142:17 144:1

144:6

EER 65:17

97:9 103:18

104:1,23,24

112:16

141:11,16

202:6

effect 11:10

19:6,9 26:5

28:6 35:1

40:3 41:24

42:2 44:5

50:14 105:6

138:6,8,9,10

138:15,16

141:7 142:13

143:1,2

144:6,10

169:2

effected

171:21

182:25

effective
Meeting June 1, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

15

171:22

172:15 173:7

173:23

179:10,17

182:14 196:6

effectively

109:24

effects 38:23

56:24 145:11

efficiencies

96:3 152:18

171:3

efficiency 6:13

6:15 9:8

10:13,24

11:7,22 14:2

14:6 15:4,20

15:23 16:4

16:13,17,19

17:9,11,15

17:19,20

18:6 20:11

20:16,20,23

22:12,19,20

22:25 23:1

27:6,11 28:6

28:9 29:6,8

29:13,21

30:9 31:3,6

31:11,11,13

31:25,25

32:11,12,13

33:11 38:11

38:13,19

39:2,5,13,16

39:18,22

40:12,18

41:22 42:1

43:12,13

51:9 70:22

72:12,24

73:4 76:24

77:14,24

84:18,22

87:9 89:3

90:3 115:4

117:16 120:1

121:14

132:23

133:23

134:15 135:1

149:15

150:12 151:7

152:1,21

153:5,22

166:4 168:9

168:18,23

171:4 173:25

175:17,21

176:15

178:20

182:11 188:6

efficient 86:21

efforts 182:13

eight 72:19

Eilen 2:13 4:17

either 69:3

82:12,13

84:5 86:12

131:6 151:6

172:17

200:15,17

EL 11:3,3 13:4

13:5,21,24

14:7,7,12

15:5 16:9

20:14 22:4

26:11 27:14

36:7 40:13

41:23,23

42:3 45:2

47:25 49:9

49:16 57:15

73:7,22 74:6

75:22 76:1,3

76:17 77:1,2

77:8 78:1

134:9 135:9

136:8,8

147:1 150:14

153:24 154:1

154:4,12

156:12,16,17

156:19,19

168:24,25

169:1,2

174:21

175:10 186:6

EL-1 55:13

EL-3 35:16

elastic 139:20

elasticity

135:14 137:7

137:14 138:2

140:11

144:25

electric 3:18

30:22 31:8

115:3 120:25

121:6 153:10

electricity

48:16 137:23

151:18,19

electronic

199:9

elephant 94:16

elevator

113:25

ELs 11:13

12:13 14:11

29:22 44:23

45:1,6 48:5

133:3 148:14

148:20

153:22

174:14 182:5

else 6:19

31:16 33:21

40:25 106:15

169:22

172:10 202:3

embedded

116:13,24

Emerson 4:3

173:15

190:21

emphasizing

182:11

employee

205:8,9

employment

159:3 196:11

196:22 197:6

enacted 138:8

138:9

encourage

65:11,19

112:9,17

encouraged

67:12

end 32:6,7

57:23 66:14

71:6 76:19

92:6 115:8

127:9,10

143:25

174:17

191:14 194:7

204:18

endeavor

179:6

ends 101:12

Energetics

4:14

energy 5:24

8:25 9:7,10

9:19 10:16

10:18,22,23

11:24 12:18

12:23 13:13

14:1 15:5

16:22 19:6,8

19:9,15,23

20:4,7 21:9

25:23,24

28:6,9,9

29:15,25

30:1 33:10

34:20 38:22

38:24 39:16

39:18 40:1,4

40:15 44:14

55:22,24

56:1,7,13,19

57:14 58:17

59:3,6,9 62:9

87:8 120:12

133:1 140:11

140:13,14

149:13,19,20

149:24,25

150:10,12,16

150:19,20,24

151:4,15,16

151:24 152:7

152:17,23

153:6,9

154:22

155:14,18

156:11 159:2

169:9,11

171:4 181:11

182:1 191:21

192:4 195:22

201:18

Enforcement

165:14

engineer 48:23

engineered

175:2

engineering

5:13,24,25

10:10 20:13

31:8 33:10

33:12 70:13

70:14 84:24

109:12

117:12,22

159:18,23

186:5,9,16
Meeting June 1, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

16

170:8

enough 38:5

64:8 77:19

101:14

109:22

114:22

129:12 130:4

130:16

145:12

188:21

195:13

199:13

entail 116:1

entire 71:25

108:4 166:3

entirely 39:6

40:3

envelope

155:25

EPA 180:23

EPCA 201:18

202:12

equation

150:21

181:10

equipment

17:16 20:11

22:15,18,21

24:8,9 35:22

51:16 53:22

54:23 55:2

57:5 59:10

61:19 78:7

79:23 84:3

96:11 97:21

117:17

120:12,17

140:25

141:20

144:12 150:3

151:25

153:24 154:2

154:4,12

155:15,17

167:3 173:25

189:3 192:18

195:4 200:23

201:5

equitable 60:2

Eric 1:25 4:4

64:25 67:1

68:14 69:9

69:11,15

106:23

109:14

110:18

111:15

112:24

201:15,22

202:19 203:3

Eric's 109:3

escalate

187:24

ESP 93:9 95:3

95:4,25

103:9,11,13

especially

24:7 88:16

essential

109:1

essentially 8:1

54:22 70:24

72:15,21

82:18,19

92:16 125:18

127:9 135:13

137:8,11,16

149:16 151:7

152:23

153:16

166:11 174:2

187:17

establishing

96:8

estimate

149:13

154:19

160:20 161:2

188:15 195:3

195:4 198:9

estimates

124:14

152:22

155:21

et 98:17 99:23

115:16

152:10 154:4

154:4

ETL 99:23

evaluate 51:20

evaluated

99:18,21,24

evaluation

71:14 161:6

evaporator

80:12 81:11

82:3 83:7

86:18

ever 144:6

178:10

189:11

every 50:19

56:21 154:4

166:8,8

170:19,22

171:7 174:13

190:24

197:19

everybody 3:2

3:3 29:25

39:4 67:4

113:14 132:2

everybody's

119:20 124:6

everyone 5:1

6:21 46:21

79:6 106:11

111:14 113:5

126:12

everyone's

51:4 108:2

everything

52:18 62:10

107:22

136:12

150:25

153:17 166:7

168:13

everywhere

50:4

evolve 63:15

evolved 63:14

exact 41:8

68:25 143:3

174:13 197:1

exactly 55:4

75:12 78:2

104:4 106:25

110:15 125:5

125:6 127:16

130:22 173:2

184:17

examine 159:3

example 13:13

30:17 32:1

32:18 52:17

56:22 75:1

76:10 77:7

80:5 81:7

85:9 88:6

95:14 107:5

117:6 122:1

146:8 147:13

156:15

159:16

173:16

183:25

191:10

192:17

examples

88:11

exceeds 180:3

excellent

18:14

except 81:9

140:24 194:6

exception 95:1

exchange

120:1

exclude 97:6

exclusion

141:3

exercising

65:24 112:22

exist 174:19

existence

51:22

existing 24:25

78:3 85:1

93:6 97:9

135:11,14

136:21

exists 51:12

exit 170:10

expanding

140:24

183:17 184:9

expect 117:14

125:7 203:24

204:7

expectations

203:23

expected

48:14 141:17

expedite

112:25

expenditures

160:24

expensive

86:7 182:2

experience

53:9 138:18

143:1 166:15

202:4

exploring

193:9

export 150:11

exposed

131:11

extends 182:8
Meeting June 1, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

17

149:6 184:14

189:18

191:22

192:10,21

exterior 92:23

external 11:9

19:23 59:13

59:19 60:19

60:20,20,23

60:24 80:19

80:20 83:10

83:18 89:21

90:7,8,13

94:8 95:12

95:15 96:2

97:2 101:16

102:16

103:24

104:18

extra 86:16

101:23

145:20

156:17,20

extremely

64:22

F

face 100:13,16

196:3

facilitate 5:12

facilities 195:2

195:5

fact 9:4,12

23:23 47:23

55:15 56:20

108:18

119:25

145:23

148:12

154:10

174:10,18

179:7

factor 24:10

30:1 131:7

139:3,5,9,10

143:10,11

145:10

factored

139:11

factors 142:20

159:2 178:4

178:6,8

180:14

181:24

failure 144:12

144:12

fair 109:22

114:22 197:2

fairly 5:20 43:3

124:18 136:3

197:4,10,13

faith 176:7

204:6

fall 146:19,25

falling 142:1

fallout 176:14

fallouts 190:16

familiar 153:21

fan 11:10,11

12:19,19,23

21:9 35:1,1

39:15,20

40:1 55:24

56:1,5,13

57:8,13,15

57:20,22

58:2,3,17

60:22 71:15

80:16 82:4

103:18 105:5

115:22,24

117:4,14

118:16 120:7

124:8 125:12

184:15,21,21

fans 80:23

89:25 180:19

183:21

184:13 185:4

185:5

far 27:5 35:1

48:9 53:23

113:2 128:20

144:18 171:4

193:16 194:4

fashion 82:10

fast 162:25

181:19

FDA 180:21,24

180:25

feasible 178:7

feature 90:4

175:17

features 37:20

191:20

192:11,23

195:18,21

Federal 189:21

190:9

feedback

160:1 161:4

164:19,20

165:8,17

167:9 176:16

188:16

195:11,14

feeds 8:24

feel 4:22 43:24

47:24 48:2

84:10 160:5

feeling 77:21

felt 75:13

FEMALE 133:7

fest 5:1

fewer 76:7,8

151:11

field 59:10

60:4,6 63:1

field-supplied

83:8

figure 97:2

105:1 165:23

197:11

figures 164:21

165:7

file 65:24

filings 159:21

161:3 164:17

fill 14:9 131:5

131:6,23

filled 131:16

132:4,13

filter 60:17

final 5:4 65:15

67:14 68:14

69:2,3,4

106:25

112:13,22

114:24

135:19 151:2

196:10

201:25

finalize 177:11

finally 41:19

71:18

financial

159:19

160:21

161:12,17,22

162:2 164:15

180:5

financially

205:11

find 47:13

109:19 153:3

177:2

fine 101:24

105:23

134:18

finish 113:9

finishing 116:9

firm 114:7

first 3:6 11:14

13:14,14

14:22 31:18

55:10 56:19

57:2 69:15

75:21 79:2

79:13,24

85:25 86:1,2

90:24 96:23

97:17,20

100:3 113:24

114:3 115:11

145:22

150:23

182:23

185:22

first-cost

51:13 152:22

fit 81:5,16

82:22 85:12

85:14 86:19

86:24 87:5

92:1,2,11

fit-up 85:7

fits 43:23

fitted 85:10

five 38:12

53:18 54:3

62:16 72:9

94:5 133:5

157:10

197:17,19

flat 142:6

152:21 153:5

164:7

flatten 17:19

flea 88:20

flight 5:9,10

45:18 114:6

flights 114:7

flipping 12:5

floor 79:1 98:7

113:24 114:3

139:1,13

flow 37:23

68:23 105:6

161:1,4,7

186:21
Meeting June 1, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

18

flows 101:5

fly 115:21

FMCS 3:3,11

3:12 106:13

focus 59:7

159:11

176:25 183:3

194:22

focused 91:16

165:15

196:10

focuses 186:9

focusing

159:5 195:9

folks 91:7

116:8,24

158:23

185:14

188:23

follow 73:1

85:23 202:2

follow-up

168:20

following

158:3

follows 202:1

foot 73:3

footprint 41:8

forced 72:16

forces 37:24

164:3

forcing 37:22

forecast 29:13

140:25 187:8

foregoing

205:5

forget 14:19

forgetting

143:3

forgiveness

111:11

forgot 35:17

form 131:5

132:13

146:18

format 135:18

183:9

forth 155:11

forum 167:8

forward 28:4

64:21 79:5

107:14

108:11 116:5

162:25 194:5

forward-cur...

80:23

found 24:14

94:9

four 9:5 38:12

53:18 54:3

67:10,13

83:23 86:18

110:19 136:8

fraction 11:6

16:20 17:1,3

17:10 22:12

23:10 38:19

39:7 42:1

128:2 146:16

fractions

16:18 24:11

frame 170:17

189:25

framework

69:7

franchise

147:24

frankly 109:13

free 103:1

104:8 161:1

161:4,7

freezer 176:10

frequently

87:12 150:19

Friday 21:25

115:8 120:24

front 97:1 98:7

124:23

fuel 151:18

fulfill 63:12

full 32:1 65:23

112:21

126:18,19

127:25 128:1

149:14 152:3

163:8

full-fuel-cycle

9:18 153:8

fully 131:5

fun 5:1 203:21

function

137:21

151:14 152:1

156:12

fundamental

191:17

furnace 57:8

57:10 117:4

117:13

118:19 120:6

124:15

125:17

183:22

184:15,15

198:10

furnaces 5:20

6:19 7:2 8:20

125:11 170:4

176:3 179:10

181:14 184:1

197:25 198:3

further 13:21

28:7 29:18

32:3 148:22

205:7

future 97:14

138:19

140:19,25

143:6 153:2

156:25

159:17

future's

173:12

G

G 3:1

gain 186:20

Gallowish

2:12 4:17

galvanized

98:17

game 189:8

gas 7:2 30:23

31:2 33:20

33:20 34:10

71:8 115:5

115:24 117:4

117:13,13

120:6 121:1

121:5 127:15

198:25 199:9

gather 74:18

gave 16:2

107:5 123:7

131:11

geared 173:4,9

gearing

173:21

189:22

general 4:4

12:12 27:4

30:3 43:1

45:10 64:25

66:9,9

201:10

generalized

102:2

generally

30:23 57:6

145:12

186:15

193:11

gentlemen

33:25

getting 9:6

13:3,22,24

15:7,22 16:8

23:8 37:24

38:20 40:17

49:18 60:16

76:15 83:12

87:21 106:13

108:25

110:16 111:2

113:10 120:2

133:2 155:17

172:1 176:22

178:20 180:5

180:8 191:7

give 16:2

46:17 64:8

79:1 84:8,10

88:11 89:13

101:23 108:4

127:6 146:5

150:2 154:19

167:8 195:12

203:14

given 61:25

108:20 124:7

143:9 152:21

191:23

199:16 201:5

gives 57:9

69:22 135:20

150:5 152:3

160:12,13,13

160:23 161:4

193:13

202:20

giving 24:4

104:22

glad 108:14

123:6

global 182:11

go 3:5 5:20,24

10:18 12:19

28:4 33:4

34:8 38:8

41:5 43:16
Meeting June 1, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

19

45:15 50:11

55:17 58:3

61:6,12 63:9

64:8 68:23

69:25 70:2

72:14 73:8

73:12,14,18

77:22,22

79:4 81:2,4

81:24 83:15

85:14 89:8

91:3 96:13

101:8 107:14

107:19,21

109:10 114:9

116:10 119:2

121:25 124:2

124:25

133:18

134:20

135:25

145:18

146:10,24

147:22 148:8

150:7 151:21

152:24

153:25

154:13

155:10

156:11,12,21

156:24

157:15

159:21 160:8

169:3,22

172:17,18,18

180:20,22

184:25

185:18

187:20

188:10 189:7

189:15 193:4

193:20

194:16

197:19 198:4

203:22

goes 25:1 28:6

35:11 42:17

50:11 51:10

84:15,19

121:14,14

134:2 138:15

139:11 144:4

145:2,3

146:16 149:9

157:18,18,19

169:2 173:11

176:11

179:11 194:4

going 5:7,11

5:15 6:22

10:7,11,14

10:16 12:18

13:6 15:6,8

17:5 18:12

22:24 25:6

33:6 37:8,13

40:1 41:14

42:25 43:16

44:4,4,6,6

45:22 46:1,1

47:18 50:3,3

50:6,11 53:7

55:14 57:19

60:8 62:23

63:2 64:14

66:23,24

68:24 72:14

72:20 73:8

73:13,21

74:4,6 75:7

80:6 86:13

86:22 87:12

89:14 94:17

95:10 98:17

98:18 99:9

102:22 105:8

106:18,22,23

106:24,25

107:19 109:4

110:21,22

111:18 114:8

116:7 120:3

121:24 122:2

122:3 123:17

125:6 126:2

133:17,20

136:25 140:9

142:17,20

144:18

145:14,17,18

146:11

148:20 150:7

151:25 154:3

157:21

159:14

164:10

166:16,23

167:10

168:10

169:17,21

170:10 171:9

171:9,15

172:18,21,21

173:12 174:6

174:25 175:4

175:5,9,14

175:25

177:22

178:23 180:2

180:20,21,25

181:7,13,23

184:25

185:10

187:16 188:4

188:14 192:6

194:13

198:18

203:11,11,13

203:18

going-in 61:21

Gollapudi 1:12

gone 11:18,19

11:20 38:5

43:8,9 44:24

44:24 148:6

good 3:2 6:21

18:7 24:3

33:24 34:14

41:18 45:7

47:11 64:15

69:22 79:6

87:17 88:24

103:6 104:15

106:5 111:12

111:19,21

117:17

169:20,21

172:10,11

174:7,11,15

176:5,11,12

176:16,18

178:3 181:3

181:22 195:1

200:24 204:6

Goodman 3:20

47:4 114:15

168:7 188:3

Goods 160:17

got 5:8,21 7:14

22:25 29:10

31:10 32:25

37:9 38:3

41:6 42:5

47:21 66:19

69:2 75:9,10

78:21 80:15

104:8 106:8

108:17

111:18

113:15

122:12

132:15

157:13

165:12

175:21

180:18,19,21

183:11,12

198:17

202:10

grab 54:9

granularity

24:5

graph 126:9

127:3,5,25

135:6,23

142:4,11,13

graphical

183:9

graphs 135:17

136:3

great 38:16

45:23 59:22

90:18 106:12

133:9 170:9

204:8,15

greater 39:21

60:22

Greg 1:22 4:9

5:19 6:15,16

6:18 9:23

18:1 21:15

25:22 26:7

33:5,17

46:14,23

62:5 159:7

161:11

201:12

Greg's 6:9

47:2 78:8

167:12

GRIM 161:25

194:23

grimace 203:3

gross 162:19

163:2,3,5

ground 145:8

group 1:1 4:21

63:16 65:1

65:11,19

67:25 68:4
Meeting June 1, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

20

86:3 97:8

107:11 108:4

110:24

111:24

112:10,17

115:20 116:6

116:17 119:5

119:8,21

124:23 125:7

199:5 202:1

204:5

Group’s 68:6

grow 87:24

94:17

grown 28:3

growth 29:7

87:11 89:5

139:14

guaranteed

58:12

guess 12:20

12:23 20:3,5

20:12 21:21

38:10 43:17

45:5,8 48:13

50:5,16 52:2

61:18,19

85:14 96:13

109:5 110:6

110:8 115:13

117:8 118:9

121:8 125:9

131:12

132:20,21

133:8 134:22

138:13,20

140:16

155:19

157:10,16

173:20 174:9

174:12 176:2

178:4 179:1

187:23 188:3

189:5,8,9

190:3 197:5

198:13

guidelines

61:22

guys 33:24

47:22 48:1

62:14,15

63:9 84:2

108:14,18

109:4 113:9

113:10 117:9

123:16

129:23

133:20

189:13

Gymnasium

37:11

H

hairdryer 7:1

half 31:14

47:13 96:19

140:15

hand 47:2

100:21 117:6

146:9

hands 111:3

hang 61:2 92:6

happen 125:6

133:20

146:11 170:2

happened

63:3,4 69:2

137:24

139:16

142:19

186:15

happening

28:12 37:3

148:4 170:6

170:21

181:10,11

happens 36:6

36:15 56:21

57:7 60:4

92:3 147:23

165:25

169:24

172:23

happy 33:25

113:14,17

124:6 132:13

hard 23:15

73:2 109:4

110:10 143:9

143:9 178:11

181:19

194:25 203:6

harder 167:7

hardly 59:18

Harvey 1:23

3:22 21:15

57:3 74:12

82:9 87:7

88:10 89:1

92:4 93:2,8

94:24 100:17

101:8,25

103:8 104:7

104:20

111:15 113:7

121:7 134:2

146:13 182:6

191:16

200:10 203:3

Harvey's 101:5

has 9:15,22

10:8,10 11:9

11:19 12:17

21:12 25:22

28:3 32:14

33:22 36:19

39:6,12,14

39:18 40:2

44:12 53:9

55:19 59:15

63:14 65:13

67:14 68:3

68:23 69:8

71:3 73:20

79:12 82:2,3

89:5 95:9,14

99:1 100:11

100:21

102:16 104:4

104:7 107:10

109:16

112:11 120:6

126:14,14

128:13 132:2

139:14

141:13 148:1

162:20

163:11

167:24 169:6

170:2,22

178:19 184:2

190:18 192:8

195:18

196:11

201:20

202:19

hasn't 9:15

11:19

hate 89:25

101:25

148:18

haven't 26:1

78:16 139:11

161:12,13

181:20

196:16

200:11

having 37:7

58:2 73:4

86:24 100:12

100:15 131:9

142:12 177:8

178:21

188:19

189:13

191:12

he'll 10:17

head 193:9

heading 5:2

hear 62:23

63:23 69:21

80:9 108:14

150:19 176:5

179:21 183:6

204:7

heard 10:10

67:9,10

69:14,17

79:10 107:17

145:17

157:25

187:13

195:14

hearing 69:15

93:7

heat 12:17

30:22,23,23

31:1,9 33:20

33:22 34:12

57:9,9 71:8,8

81:22 88:8

92:1 100:23

115:3,3,5,6

115:24

117:13

119:25 120:1

120:25 121:1

121:2,5,6

125:19 127:3

127:14,15,15

140:24

156:19

198:19,25

199:9,9

heating 97:21

heavily 156:25

heavy 172:24

height 81:4

82:24 101:19

101:22 102:3
Meeting June 1, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

21

heights 90:12

help 22:7 28:8

66:1 89:22

111:14

169:12

179:18

189:14

195:24 199:3

199:11

helped 61:5

helpful 64:20

64:22 66:25

138:5 164:13

189:14

191:14,22

195:16 201:6

201:10

here 3:6 5:3,10

5:13,14 8:8

9:1,21 11:11

11:16,23

12:7 14:4,4

15:17 17:4

17:14,14

19:21 27:16

28:10 33:11

36:15,16,20

42:16,17

43:1 45:7,7,9

45:14,15

46:2 51:15

51:17 55:8

56:14 57:13

58:19,21

60:9,12

66:20 67:20

68:13,16

69:10 71:1

71:10 72:10

72:20 73:3

73:17,20,20

73:21 74:2,6

74:7 75:16

75:18 76:11

77:11 79:19

80:1,6,14,15

80:16 81:14

82:1 83:6,13

89:17 90:25

93:25 94:21

97:18 100:3

100:5 101:15

102:16 116:2

116:19,23

121:21

122:15 123:2

123:10 125:6

125:19

126:16,23

133:16 135:7

135:17 137:5

138:14

142:24

143:11

144:19,21

146:4,25

147:6 150:9

151:16,22

152:14 154:9

155:13

156:15

161:13

164:15,21,25

167:25 176:7

176:17,25

179:16

187:22,25

188:20

190:22

193:21 194:2

196:22

201:15

202:17 204:5

204:12

here's 6:2

126:23 183:9

hesitate 203:1

Hey 33:24

Hi 54:21

158:23

high 32:7 37:5

48:16,17

51:3 80:20

87:9 125:14

145:25

147:15

182:22,25

188:12

191:23

195:12

high-velocity

96:10

higher 9:7,12

11:12 12:18

27:11,14

29:22 30:4

36:19,22,22

36:24 39:18

40:18 41:3,9

41:14 51:9

56:14 58:17

60:11 73:5

77:14 78:5

80:24,25

81:1,5 83:19

94:7 95:3

117:20

154:13,14

168:11,14,15

173:8 181:16

188:1 189:24

193:20

194:10

higher,but

194:16

Hillbrand 3:25

3:25

historic 138:5

138:14,18

143:5

history 138:17

hit 13:7 58:1

hold 78:24

144:1

holds 45:3

home 5:3

61:16

honest 161:9

184:4 196:12

honestly

203:24

Hootman 1:13

4:1,1 7:1

18:22,25

33:17 34:3,3

34:9,25

36:14 37:2

37:11,18

52:20 53:5

54:6,13,16

55:4 60:20

60:23 61:2,3

74:18,23

75:2 88:13

98:12,15

99:19 110:6

110:15

118:24 119:3

119:6,10,14

122:16,19,21

122:25 123:2

123:8,15

129:25 130:2

130:21 131:8

136:6,11,15

138:11,21

142:6,8

147:21

154:24,25

155:6 157:15

158:3,13

167:14,14,20

167:23 168:4

169:18

170:13,15,19

170:25 171:3

171:20

172:16

173:18 174:4

180:24 181:5

183:20

184:18,24

189:15

191:25

192:20

197:15 198:4

198:12,15

hope 10:19

63:10,10,11

63:19,25

64:5 69:11

133:19

hoped 69:20

hopefully

96:14 108:6

112:24

113:13,15

180:13 194:3

hoping 140:8

193:16

horizontal

80:2,4 83:22

83:25 86:14

87:2 88:1

90:12 91:2

91:14,14,16

93:18 94:4

101:24 102:8

horizontally-...

82:23

horizontals

88:14

horsepower

37:15 80:25

83:19

hot 7:8 33:22

34:12 35:6,8

hour 48:17

83:3 84:10

hours 198:10
Meeting June 1, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

22

house 204:9

housekeeping

204:9

Hower 2:9

4:16

however 6:12

19:10 29:24

49:7 159:11

161:16

162:13

163:15 164:8

167:8

Huang 2:17

4:18

huge 20:6 35:5

41:11 134:11

166:17,17

hugely 197:21

hunch 87:22

hundreds

19:21

hung 92:17

Hunt 1:14 3:24

3:24 18:1,1,7

18:11,18

19:3 54:21

54:21 84:1,1

84:6 94:13

94:13,16,23

hurry 155:21

Hurst 1:15

3:19,19

48:24,24

63:7,7 64:14

139:5,8

143:14,14,24

161:19,19,25

162:7,21,23

163:21,21

166:18,18,23

198:6

Hurst's 51:10

HVAC 146:18

hypothesis

95:23

hypothesize

67:22

I

I'd 20:12 56:11

101:24

I'll 6:18 8:23

9:21 10:15

15:11,15

16:24 17:3

17:22 18:5

29:18 34:15

43:17 47:4

54:1,1 62:12

66:12 67:3

67:10 70:12

88:13 113:3

126:6 132:12

158:24 160:5

161:9 162:17

162:17

194:24

196:12 199:6

202:4

Idaho 53:16

ideas 108:20

identical 71:21

202:9

identify 16:25

96:24 128:25

identifying

124:4

IEER 14:6,11

26:11 30:9

31:5 33:13

33:16 57:18

58:1 59:5,8

71:7,15

72:21 73:11

97:12 103:2

104:2 115:2

115:15,23,25

117:6 120:15

120:25 121:3

121:4,14

125:7,16

133:4 141:13

174:13

198:25 199:8

199:16 201:5

IEER-optimi...

141:20

illegal 69:10

69:12

illustrated

146:13

illustrates

58:15

image 7:6

imagine

190:25

immediately

105:18

immune 181:7

impact 12:22

19:10 20:9

21:12 44:14

58:21 62:4

71:14 86:23

117:16 122:5

122:7 125:15

133:16

134:12 143:4

143:13 159:1

159:1 166:21

171:9 173:10

180:6,19

181:11,23

183:11

184:11

185:11

impacted

12:16 16:19

45:12 166:8

166:9

impactful 19:7

19:14 20:4

impacting

143:8

impacts 62:7

149:12,14

150:17 152:5

159:3,6

183:13

IMPB 183:3

implement

139:23

implemented

75:10 77:13

137:15

implication

63:1,8

important 5:14

16:17,22

50:2 55:22

56:25 68:15

80:6 83:6

132:22 133:4

133:5,10,15

133:25

146:13

178:16

181:18,24

191:19,21

impose 96:2

improvement

97:15

inaudible

13:19 37:11

38:2 45:21

50:8,22

54:10 92:25

114:21

120:20,21

127:1 138:12

154:24,25

156:7 168:10

168:16

181:12 185:8

186:13

inbox 110:9

incentive

54:22 171:5

inch 60:15

61:7,12

80:20 83:15

104:17

inches 11:9

81:4,19

82:24,25

85:12 94:6

101:19 102:3

102:4,17

103:10,11,24

104:12

include 10:23

97:23 102:2

112:2 127:3

146:19

150:24

165:21 169:8

197:8

included 65:4

90:7 140:20

includes 11:6

129:10 153:9

191:19

including

65:20 103:8

112:18 159:2

202:6

income 160:14

160:23

incorporate

29:17 44:3

187:9

incorporating

11:7 15:19

44:2

incorporation

15:3

incorrectly 8:4

77:17,19

increase 16:19

17:20 41:12
Meeting June 1, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

23

55:14 73:23

73:25 74:5,9

139:5,7,8

145:5 152:24

156:14 163:6

164:9 178:21

186:21

increased 22:4

38:11 56:5

97:7 118:11

118:12

increases

15:23 17:18

163:14 183:5

increasing

11:10 184:8

184:9

increment

50:15,16,18

incremental

186:10

increments

50:2

incur 41:3,14

52:21 178:23

incurred 11:4

incurring 8:16

38:15 60:12

independent

7:21

Index 140:23

indicate 17:3

23:23

indicated

20:16 23:9

24:12 34:16

47:6 166:21

indication

127:6 176:17

individual

135:24 149:8

200:17

individuals

3:10 157:7

169:15

indoor 8:2

71:15 80:11

81:15,23

89:15 98:5

99:2,6 101:6

101:7 115:22

117:4

indoors 98:18

101:11

industry 51:8

52:3 84:13

98:23,24

107:10,25

108:5,5

148:25 149:7

149:8 159:2

160:3,11

161:3,3,6

163:11

164:24 165:1

165:6,8

168:12 170:6

177:7,14

181:23

182:10

183:17 184:9

184:10

185:24

186:11,20

187:2 194:25

196:12

200:12

industry's

108:12

inelastic

135:17

infer 130:24

inflate 50:18

inflated 48:7

inflation

187:24

influence

182:17

influences

141:14

information

8:5 32:4

46:22 64:8,9

70:1,2 71:7,9

75:19 77:19

78:2 94:10

107:17 115:7

116:2 122:22

123:24

124:22

126:19 128:7

134:15

148:23 157:5

164:13

168:21 199:7

199:13,17

200:7,22

informational

128:4

inherent 90:3

inherently

87:23

initial 66:5

78:15

initially 77:13

90:25 97:22

inlet 81:12

100:12,14

innovating

193:5

innovation

193:15

input 7:14

55:25 63:16

63:17 125:12

149:22 199:4

inputs 15:9

150:10

151:21

159:14,15

INPV 107:22

109:11 159:6

161:6 176:25

182:24 183:5

install 56:22

63:3 137:19

installation

10:12,24

11:3 80:18

92:18,22

98:5 198:11

installations

15:6 59:17

77:2 88:12

installed 11:2

15:21 16:3

38:25 47:7

48:5 49:24

62:21 80:5

81:19,23

82:5 88:2,4

101:11 152:2

instance 73:1

97:13 115:25

121:5

instead 69:7

95:19 144:18

intellectually

141:10

intent 126:1

176:25

intention

127:25

interaction

56:24 171:10

interest 94:1

116:6

interested

59:2 168:17

205:11

interesting

27:15 111:6

141:11

interior 82:23

92:22

internal 114:16

120:7

interpolations

115:16

interpret

126:16

interpretation

203:4

interpreted 8:5

interrupt 27:19

interrupting

105:17

intervals

148:19

interview

33:25

interviews

159:22 160:2

164:19 165:9

165:15

166:21 167:2

187:19,21

188:22

into 3:6 5:24

8:24 16:24

17:3 22:18

22:24 23:1

24:16 28:6

37:22,24

44:14 48:1

55:25 58:19

59:25 61:7

69:25 70:2

81:17,17,18

83:12,19

85:7 88:8,21

89:12 90:1

100:24 111:3

117:20

121:25 129:4

138:15

142:17

144:18

145:16

146:16 152:5
Meeting June 1, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

24

155:2,4

159:21

162:17

165:23 169:2

169:12

176:22 177:7

180:5 187:9

195:19

196:17

198:11 203:1

introduced

96:19

introducing

40:14

introductory

5:18

intuitively

19:12 20:5

36:5

Investigating

121:19

investigation

121:20

investments

163:15,17

involved 76:14

116:16

122:10,14

196:16

involves 96:24

IOUs 3:24

54:22

IPAs 7:10

203:23

isn't 14:22

94:6 120:10

123:10

174:20 182:2

issue 10:12

69:3,4 88:17

89:7 93:15

100:24

108:11 116:3

126:22

180:17 182:7

196:10

198:16 204:9

issues 5:13,24

6:20 62:16

62:17,19,22

62:22 85:7

121:23 126:4

156:2 190:14

196:5,8

203:9

it’s 96:21

itching 195:19

item 100:5

103:16

items 67:12,12

203:17

J

Jacobs 2:11

4:16

James 1:7

4:11

January

115:11,12

171:22 173:5

189:6

Javier 1:21

3:12 63:22

Jeff 2:14 4:17

Jill 1:13 4:1

33:18 34:3,8

36:14 52:15

55:4 61:3

141:23

154:25

167:14

Jill's 62:22

Jim 2:15 4:17

115:13 117:2

118:6 124:13

126:1 199:1

Joanna 31:16

job 106:13

170:9,10

John 1:9,15

3:19 4:6,24

43:15 47:15

48:24 49:11

50:24 51:10

55:5 56:18

57:3 58:9

63:7 66:1

67:5 68:12

86:2,11,25

91:15 102:14

106:20

132:19 134:5

143:14 146:2

146:12

147:21 154:6

161:19

163:21

166:18 168:6

174:6,21

177:5 192:8

joining 3:3

joint 180:12

judgment

25:19

juggle 5:12

jump 14:16,18

73:6 90:21

jumping 19:1

jumps 41:9

June 1:3 6:4

66:20 205:12

justice 10:14

justified 90:3

178:8 184:11

184:12

justify 141:3

K

K-Mart 61:17

Karen 1:19

62:6 66:6

106:17

108:13

132:12

142:22

148:24

176:21 178:2

Karen's 181:2

Katie 1:8 4:7

6:16 29:18

29:19 44:5

52:21 140:17

146:4 157:15

157:21

185:23

Katie's 161:12

keep 96:2,16

129:11

148:18

154:15 156:9

162:20 166:5

197:5 204:14

kept 21:6

22:14

key 56:14

89:16 190:13

killing 96:17

kind 5:11,18

12:8 19:1,12

19:13,13

30:3 36:22

55:23 56:1

58:14,15

59:4 64:16

77:17 79:24

87:20 90:17

100:14 108:2

108:4 110:12

115:25 141:4

145:1,16

146:6 147:18

154:15

169:20

170:18,24

171:1,7

175:18

187:19

189:12

194:22

197:15

201:16

knew 63:14

128:18

know 5:5 7:8

7:13 8:13 9:5

11:16,23

12:8 15:7,11

15:14 16:18

19:20 20:13

21:5 24:5

25:5,6,15,15

26:3 27:3,4

27:15 29:5

31:23 32:10

33:5,14,20

35:21 36:6

37:13 38:23

40:7 41:15

45:10 48:10

48:16 49:15

49:24 50:24

50:25 51:3

51:17 52:6,6

52:17,17

53:8,10,16

53:20,22,22

54:16,18

55:6,7,9,17

55:18,24

59:1,18,24

60:4 61:25

63:2,20,23

65:16 66:7

68:19 69:11

69:12,21

71:4,4 73:21

73:22 74:8

74:10 77:19

77:21,22

78:23,24
Meeting June 1, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

25

79:1,1 81:14

83:11,21

85:15 86:6,8

86:25 88:14

88:16,21,22

89:11,20

90:11,14

91:20 93:3

93:16 96:19

96:20,23,25

97:3,3,10,17

98:7,8,15

100:13

101:22 102:5

107:12,14,16

107:17 108:4

108:6,7,9,16

108:22,25

109:7,12,15

109:18 110:8

110:10,16,21

112:14

113:23 114:5

114:8 116:12

116:18

117:13

118:12 119:5

119:19

120:20,24

122:14,21

124:7,16,16

124:22

125:13

126:17 127:8

128:1,2,16

128:18,21,23

128:23 129:7

130:8,9,22

130:23,25

131:3,16,21

131:23,25

132:5,17,18

132:22 133:8

133:9,11,16

133:19,22

134:6,8,19

136:3 137:14

138:11,20

139:4,18

141:25

142:15,19

143:7,9

144:1,5,9

145:7,24,25

146:3,5

147:23 148:2

148:6,8,11

148:11,13,21

148:25 151:6

154:7 155:9

160:3 163:24

165:7 167:10

170:7,10,20

171:8 172:9

173:6,12,12

174:1 175:10

176:9 177:22

177:24,25

178:10,21,24

179:1,1,2,4

179:11,20,23

179:25 180:2

180:5,8,20

181:1,2,3,19

185:13,23

186:7 187:9

189:25,25

190:6,8,9,10

190:11 191:1

191:2,25

192:24 193:3

193:15,16

194:6,7,9,14

194:21 195:9

195:17,23

196:13 197:1

197:15,23

198:5 199:15

199:21,22

200:19,25

201:17

202:17

203:25

knowing

184:24

known 87:4

knows 32:7

46:9 130:1

190:5 200:19

200:20

Krowka 4:14

4:14

Kylie 2:25

205:3,17

L

lab 4:8 29:20

34:6

labeled 163:25

labor 196:14

197:18

lack 43:18

192:10

land 46:1

landscape

41:17

language

99:17 101:14

106:19,23,24

107:23

large 9:18,19

35:9 37:8,13

37:13 38:19

42:7,7,14,14

54:15 55:16

70:23,24

71:18,22

72:6,8 77:9

77:11 78:7

78:18 85:16

89:5 125:20

125:22

128:22 140:9

156:17,18,19

156:20

179:16

largely 137:6

larger 24:11

72:17 73:6

76:15,15

77:15,21

84:16 86:22

88:6 149:2

last 5:6 7:14

7:25 8:15,21

9:3 11:1,12

12:6,7,9

13:23 14:5

14:20 15:2

15:10,25

17:22 22:10

22:19 23:5,8

38:16,17,21

39:25 41:19

41:20 42:5

42:21 43:3

43:10,13

44:2,25 45:2

64:4 70:20

71:6 75:9,11

78:10,18,18

78:18 79:21

94:2,25

102:24 115:1

115:10

117:19

121:12,13

126:7 128:9

135:18 137:6

138:1,6

139:22

140:22

144:11

152:16

158:22 176:3

178:18

late 18:9 21:25

33:25 110:6

204:12

later 5:25

11:25 16:25

17:4,13

21:13 71:17

110:4 160:6

latest 84:21

153:6

latitude 69:22

202:20

Lau 1:16 4:10

4:10 158:23

158:23

160:17,19

161:22 162:4

162:8,12,16

162:22,25

163:23

164:15

165:11,13

166:10 167:1

167:19,22

168:2 176:8

176:24

182:20 183:8

183:14,25

185:22 186:5

186:14 187:5

187:7,15

188:17

194:19 196:3

196:25 197:4

197:10,22

198:7,14

laughing

197:16

198:21

Laughter 6:25

7:4,12 14:25

18:9 19:17

21:23 34:16

46:8,11 70:8
Meeting June 1, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

26

78:20 102:12

105:10

122:17

launched 68:8

law 173:16

193:23 194:1

194:13

Lawrence 4:7

29:19

lawyer's 111:3

lawyers

110:13

lay 59:23

layer 186:12

layout 59:12

60:7

LBNL 4:9

130:8

LCC 40:5

41:21,22

42:4 43:6,8

43:12 134:23

135:2,21

150:10 152:3

152:3,6,9,12

152:13,18

LCCP 182:12

lead 141:20

193:4,8

leading 147:9

leads 148:11

194:9

leaning 89:2

leap 176:7

learning

137:13

140:20 141:4

141:16

leasable 148:9

least 27:5 31:8

33:6 36:10

47:13,25

50:4 90:7

94:11 98:21

102:17

104:12

108:19

124:16

128:18 147:9

148:14

164:24 168:5

182:7 186:16

187:10 199:8

leave 104:25

132:5 174:15

leaves 176:12

LED 56:22

57:4

leeway 101:23

left 64:17

71:24 83:13

93:23 157:13

176:4

legal 67:8 68:9

107:13

108:21 110:7

112:25

legislation

98:22

leisure 73:10

Lennox 3:19

48:24 63:7

123:14

143:14

161:20

163:21

166:19

less 8:14 9:2

9:14 13:4

15:23 17:18

18:23,23,24

35:3 38:20

44:19 56:23

57:9,9 81:4

81:19 82:24

82:24 86:22

87:8 130:11

130:22 131:1

131:7 132:2

133:18

137:17

146:15

176:12,12

196:23

level 6:14 9:17

9:20 11:7

13:3,8 15:21

15:23 16:4,7

16:13,20

17:11,15,19

20:11,17,19

20:20,22,23

21:3,6 22:12

22:20 23:1

24:5 31:25

32:1,2,12,13

33:16 36:7,7

39:5,13,16

39:18,19,22

40:6,12

41:22 43:12

43:13 55:11

57:15,18

58:1 72:12

72:15,24

73:22,24

77:4,14 96:6

101:17 115:4

115:23

133:11,24

147:1 150:12

152:1 154:2

169:21 172:7

173:8,13

174:10

175:14

181:16

186:11 190:5

193:14

195:12

199:13

levels 6:10 9:1

9:8 10:13,25

11:22 14:2,6

14:6 15:4,20

17:10 27:11

27:14 30:9,9

31:6,13

33:11,13

38:13,20

39:2 47:25

51:3,9 63:19

64:6 70:22

73:4,11 74:8

76:24 77:24

78:5 97:7,10

108:25

115:22

117:20

144:10

149:15 151:7

153:22

154:14,14

171:13

173:25

176:18

177:17

178:20,23

188:10

189:21,25

190:7 191:13

191:23

199:16

200:24

lie 47:12

lieu 113:13

life 8:9 20:9

49:2 51:16

51:20,25

52:1,4,10,14

life- 19:7 51:14

life-cycle 8:12

8:17,19

10:19 12:1

15:16 17:24

21:13 22:13

23:20 29:3

39:5 44:15

51:11

lifetime 8:3,5

9:10 62:21

light 36:18

37:4 88:23

lighting 56:22

lights 57:4

like 6:24 18:20

19:7 20:12

27:5 31:25

34:7,16 35:2

35:7,11

43:22 44:18

46:20 47:21

47:25 48:11

51:7 52:19

54:17,19

55:12 59:15

59:18 64:19

67:21,23

69:13,18

73:3 79:1,11

79:17,19

83:17 86:18

88:15,20,21

90:2 91:6

94:7 101:2

101:13 102:1

106:11

107:23

110:18,24

119:6,16

122:9 124:10

124:22 133:9

142:3 148:7

148:18 149:4

166:1 167:5

167:17 168:7

176:4 188:1

188:18

192:14 198:1

likely 28:8
Meeting June 1, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

27

58:7 72:16

87:23 143:12

153:2 184:25

193:9

limit 101:23

limited 29:8,9

82:25 85:21

87:23 182:17

Linda 2:16

4:18

line 6:11 26:10

48:1 60:1

61:10,13

127:13,17

137:18 143:4

148:13 149:3

166:3,8

168:13

169:16,17

191:10 197:7

198:4,7

linearly 13:4

15:23 17:18

lines 36:19

37:3 55:5

68:19 140:19

148:17

173:22

191:11 199:6

links 60:1

list 3:9 62:14

83:24 179:11

195:18

listed 90:8,8

99:19,20,21

99:23 125:19

151:22

listen 5:15

194:25

literally 61:9

61:13 131:10

170:1 204:9

little 5:1,12

6:11,19 9:12

11:18 12:21

15:12 16:24

17:4,20

21:21 30:19

35:17 38:23

43:4 45:4,20

53:20 62:13

70:12 72:7

77:24 95:2

96:22 97:1

97:25 100:22

104:24

106:12 107:4

107:18 110:2

110:4,10

120:7 153:19

154:15 155:8

155:22 159:9

159:12 160:5

163:1 167:9

170:14 173:6

173:9 176:6

176:17

178:13

185:12

187:22 195:7

lo 155:10,11

load 12:17

56:23

lobster 155:10

lock 45:4

locked 145:16

locking 133:4

logic 158:3

logically 26:3

long 2:17 4:18

7:9 30:14

51:15 52:1

79:4 104:24

109:3 144:3

167:6 175:24

177:19

long-lived

51:16

long-term

141:1

longer 84:21

113:13 140:6

look 26:10

28:1 35:20

36:1,8,21

39:1,4,11

41:13 46:13

47:5 50:25

51:1 52:16

54:19 55:11

55:12,22

59:16,16

67:21,23

73:10 93:25

98:16 99:5

104:16 105:5

107:19

109:14

113:11

115:21

117:12,22

118:20 121:8

122:4 143:24

149:1,4

155:2,4

157:5 161:25

181:9 183:11

183:14

187:25 191:4

200:3 204:4

looked 7:15

10:4 24:14

43:17 49:1

55:19 71:23

74:24 76:20

83:16 90:5

94:8 120:24

121:2 138:4

165:19

looking 14:16

22:2 25:4

28:21 35:9

36:4 47:1

53:16 56:10

58:14 72:10

75:20 83:5

89:7 91:6

93:14 94:25

95:18 96:9

114:16 122:8

124:15

125:20

138:14

141:23,24

142:11,24

143:1,21

148:25

155:25

166:15

175:13

178:10 182:3

189:5

looks 10:3

43:22 46:20

79:17,19

83:17 106:11

142:3 177:15

loophole

87:24

Lord 31:15

172:4

Lord's 60:9

lose 41:16

losers 44:10

losing 40:18

lost 116:23,23

lot 6:6,11 9:12

15:7 29:24

40:1,25 41:3

41:8,9,13

45:9 48:2

51:8 52:16

55:25 59:17

62:7 63:15

64:11 75:9

88:1 94:18

126:7 130:20

130:21

142:19 147:9

147:10,12

158:16

159:15,15

172:8 181:5

193:7 201:7

lots 142:20

143:8

loud 198:21

Louis 1:24

3:23 12:4

14:14 19:4

21:24 22:1

25:21 30:6

33:4 36:14

44:1,8 53:10

58:24 105:4

119:23

136:17

187:15 189:4

189:16

190:20

low 32:5 36:23

44:18 48:17

51:19 73:22

88:3 125:14

128:17

130:18,19

142:8 166:15

182:23 183:1

187:6

Lowe's 61:17

lower 32:13

38:12 39:2,4

47:8 77:24

89:3 90:2

96:4 121:4

154:13 187:5

187:6

lower-bound

163:10

182:22
Meeting June 1, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

28

lowers 145:4

lowest 55:1

lunch 70:1

71:5 102:10

105:12,19,22

106:10,15

M

machine 81:18

Maddox 2:22

4:19

made 21:11

33:21 51:24

86:8,12

109:14

111:23

121:13

132:20 176:6

186:7

magnitude

133:2 156:4

main 3:8 6:12

134:24

maintain 31:6

188:9

maintenance

151:24

152:11

major 121:10

165:2

majority 8:15

makers 181:6

makes 6:14

41:10 48:7

94:18 146:12

146:13

making 49:6

58:25 68:23

128:9 182:7

182:14 187:1

202:16

makings 176:9

MALE 4:15

13:18 37:16

38:2 45:3,18

45:20 46:4

50:8 54:10

70:3 74:21

79:12,15,18

80:8 92:25

110:21 111:7

111:20 114:1

119:9 122:17

123:12 134:6

148:22

164:14 185:8

197:13

200:15

man-hours

167:5

manager

195:18

mandated

150:6

manufacture

82:17 83:21

158:25

manufactured

99:9

manufacturer

41:2,11 61:9

72:6,7 73:2

73:15,16,19

73:24 74:2,5

74:9,14

75:21 76:11

76:17,18

77:7 128:24

131:4 159:22

160:10 162:5

165:3 166:12

166:21 169:6

169:8 173:10

174:13

193:13

197:20

manufacture...

74:13

manufacture...

129:21

manufacture...

57:19

manufacture...

9:24 43:19

43:23 47:24

57:23 58:1

72:5,8,9,16

72:23,25

73:9 76:7,8

76:13 83:23

83:25 87:2

98:11 116:16

122:10

124:17

128:23,25

129:1,2,13

130:4,11,16

130:20 131:2

131:5,10,13

131:14,15,21

131:22 132:6

132:8 133:15

134:4 160:1

160:2 162:19

163:5,7,8,10

163:13,16

164:17,19

165:18 166:2

172:1,14

173:21

178:22

187:18 193:4

193:8 196:23

200:17

manufacturi...

159:3,18

many 85:18

150:14 167:6

191:12

199:15,22

201:4 203:23

map 141:23

mapped 22:18

mappings

22:15

margin 147:1

162:19 163:2

163:3 164:11

166:24

201:11

marginally

45:11,12

margins

163:25

Mark 2:18 4:18

50:20

marked 100:1

market 7:21,23

9:6,13 11:6

13:2,9 16:12

16:13,18

17:10 20:10

20:19,22

21:6 26:11

26:17 27:10

28:11 29:22

32:15 36:9

36:12 39:18

42:12,13

44:12 49:16

51:19 53:2

54:14 84:11

89:24 94:6

126:18,19

127:25 128:2

128:3,24

130:6 132:23

135:15

136:21 139:4

139:19

140:12

142:15,19

143:8 145:24

149:2 165:8

169:10 172:6

175:22 185:5

191:5,6

201:11

market's 201:7

marketed

93:19 98:22

marketing

43:17 48:2,9

48:12,15,20

marketplace

55:15,16,19

markets 51:13

88:21

markup 161:14

161:18,23,23

162:3,10,12

162:13,15,16

162:19 163:1

163:5 164:5

164:20

176:11

182:21 184:3

186:19,23,24

186:25

188:19 189:2

markup's

163:18,19

markups

159:19

160:11

163:11

176:13,19

182:21 187:8

188:10,20

192:9

Marshall 1:14

3:24 18:1

54:21 55:4

84:1 94:13

match 47:24

material 3:6

10:14 43:18

48:15 71:4

86:21 114:9

116:20
Meeting June 1, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

29

material-inte...

141:15

materials 48:2

matter 44:20

111:2 177:20

179:19

182:16

mature 141:17

max 156:15

158:11

max-tech

155:18

156:18,19

maxima

156:23

maximum

41:21,21

42:4 43:11

77:4,11

90:11 95:1

95:18 101:19

102:3,4

103:9 155:17

may 26:4

57:22 58:2,3

58:3,10,22

58:22 64:11

65:20 67:15

86:6 87:1

90:14 96:11

96:11 107:24

109:8 112:18

116:23

121:15,20

140:22

141:14 143:8

146:25

153:19 155:9

156:2 173:9

188:1 191:10

194:10,15

197:22 203:3

maybe 5:10

9:9 13:6 18:8

22:7 26:9

29:16 31:16

35:3 41:15

59:5 64:23

83:23 86:1

93:16 97:1

98:23 100:4

105:5,18,21

109:19 116:8

116:20

117:20

123:25

124:21

125:13

128:15 129:1

136:6 138:21

144:21

147:19 148:1

154:8,13

170:1 171:19

172:5 174:12

176:6 177:4

184:23,24

190:21 191:9

191:11 199:2

201:9 202:13

McCabe 1:17

4:12,12

McCrudden

1:18 3:15,15

McDonald's

147:25

mean 11:15

12:11,24

15:11 22:6

24:19 25:11

25:24 26:13

28:14,21

33:4,6 34:22

34:25 36:8

40:13 43:2

44:17 45:25

45:25 48:5

49:1,19,24

51:5,23 52:1

53:4,20

54:11 57:6

57:17,21

59:16,20

60:9,17

62:18,25

68:21 69:20

75:7,18 79:3

83:15 87:25

93:11 97:8

98:1,1,3,13

100:18

104:14 108:2

109:2,2

110:11 111:3

111:8,20

120:10

124:13 125:1

127:24 129:9

129:11

130:14,18

131:17,20

132:10,11

134:11,11

137:5 138:22

138:25 139:4

139:18 142:6

144:2 145:13

145:21

146:10

148:10,16

149:1 154:1

169:18 170:8

170:19

172:20

173:11 175:6

176:24 177:5

177:13,23,24

178:2,5,24

178:24

179:23 180:1

180:1 181:18

181:19

183:10

184:16,16

187:7 189:5

190:10,21

191:4 193:12

193:18 194:4

194:5 198:7

198:8 199:19

201:22

203:22 204:5

meaning 7:7

101:10

103:10

means 130:19

163:13

meant 21:20

107:6 137:2

meantime 5:17

measure

192:24

measurement

60:2

measures 56:3

192:3,13

meat 84:11

mechanical

141:13

mechanics

149:12

meet 31:25

32:11 33:16

57:18 84:17

84:21,24,25

85:1 92:11

103:9 104:17

114:12

163:15

165:16

184:20 189:9

190:7

meeting 1:2

8:1 14:3 15:2

15:10 17:23

29:17 38:17

42:22 43:10

43:16 64:6

70:13,15,20

71:6,19 75:4

78:19 79:21

85:24 86:2

105:19

108:23,23

117:19

132:20 176:3

188:24

meeting's

13:23

meetings 7:14

23:6 39:25

41:21 43:13

51:24 52:10

62:20 63:6

63:11 86:1,1

meets 175:21

mein 155:10

155:11

members 4:21

65:1 94:21

111:24

memories

202:17

memory 92:5

mention 50:21

120:1

mentioned

68:14 82:21

86:3 89:19

91:16 94:6

94:12

menu 154:15

merge 90:17

merit 65:10

112:9

merits 65:8

112:6

met 165:18

181:17

metal 98:17
Meeting June 1, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

30

method 61:23

72:11 75:3

103:4 137:5

metric 59:8

65:17 112:15

184:22

201:19,24

202:12

metrics 65:4

112:2 159:19

160:21

161:13,17,22

162:2 164:16

201:16

Meyers 1:19

62:6 66:4,6

66:18 67:2,5

73:13 106:17

107:3,9

109:10 113:3

132:12,16

142:22

148:24 162:9

162:15

165:10,12

176:21 177:4

177:12,18,23

178:13,16

179:13,23

185:16 186:2

186:13

192:25

200:16

202:10,15,21

MIA 133:14

149:6,9

157:13

158:24 159:9

168:8,16,16

185:24

186:10

194:20

mic 64:24

Michael 1:17

2:19,20 4:18

4:19 34:5

microphone

198:22

midpoints

31:22 33:5

might 7:9 29:3

34:7 35:24

47:12 65:2

66:10 68:15

71:11 77:14

77:15,20

78:4,4 79:4

80:20 87:23

90:22 100:14

112:1,2

115:1,23

119:17 148:6

153:1 169:2

169:19,25

173:25 190:8

203:5

migrate 104:2

Mike 2:21 4:12

4:19

mild 54:18

milder 53:20

million 165:1,2

165:6,21,23

166:11,12

167:17,18

177:20

185:20

mind 34:1

85:24 96:2

97:16 113:1

129:11

132:24 134:1

136:25 147:8

189:11 197:6

minds 154:16

180:13

197:24

mindset

189:20

minimally-c...

195:10

minimize

182:18

minimum

83:14 168:9

168:12,18,23

175:11,17

188:6

minute 70:5

123:9

minutes 46:13

157:10

Mislak 1:20

3:17,17

129:9,18,20

131:20

132:10 171:1

171:6 182:1

199:19,24

200:4

missed 18:16

26:9

missing 200:6

misspoke

141:5 157:23

misspoken

107:5

mitigate 179:9

Mitsubishi

3:18 59:11

mode 101:2,12

144:13

model 7:16

29:6,12,23

56:11 126:13

126:14

127:10

134:16,23

137:9,15

139:13,15

142:24 145:4

145:7 149:17

149:22

150:13,16

151:10 159:8

159:13

163:23

164:25

167:11 187:9

199:8,9

modeled 164:6

modeling

120:13,17

127:10

144:25

models 6:8

7:19 9:25

56:12,15,24

58:20 60:10

70:19 75:16

131:9,10

150:14

171:19 172:3

174:18 188:6

201:3,4,5

modest 29:7

70:17

modifications

134:17 140:5

modified 78:6

126:14,15

154:20

modify 97:11

modifying

127:10

modular 82:10

moment 52:12

162:17

Monday 33:25

money 51:4

54:23

Montana 53:16

more 8:14 9:2

9:7,13 12:21

13:4 14:18

15:23 17:18

17:22 19:7

19:14 25:23

25:23 27:10

27:14 28:7

30:19 40:15

43:4,24 51:8

52:4 54:17

59:4,9,23

62:23 69:22

71:17,22

72:7 74:21

75:8,15

76:11,13

86:18 88:11

104:8 110:2

111:22

117:18,21

120:1,6,7

122:13 128:6

129:1 132:21

133:3,25

137:17

140:11

144:22

146:17 148:8

150:8 151:22

153:1,19

155:8 156:25

159:9 162:9

163:7 167:9

173:19

185:12

188:14 190:2

192:7 194:19

195:7 197:18

198:16 201:9

204:14,14

more-efficient

41:15 89:6

153:2

morning 3:2

6:21 33:24

71:12 79:10

106:1 107:17
Meeting June 1, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

31

108:8 110:3

110:9,10

114:11,13,21

115:17

116:12

201:13

most 12:15

30:25 43:20

53:21 55:11

58:7,10

86:21 109:24

152:19

153:20 172:6

173:22

191:10

mostly 33:20

motor 12:18

57:9 83:17

83:17 104:11

104:16,18,21

motors 80:25

83:19

mouse 73:17

move 8:23

10:7 28:11

28:22 38:5,7

42:25 43:1

63:20 64:3

64:20 72:16

75:17 103:2

104:9 111:1

114:14,24

116:5,19

134:22

148:16,17

149:10

158:21

moved 20:23

41:23 56:3

134:7

moves 156:17

166:4

moving 28:11

40:23 42:3

43:6 71:20

73:5 108:11

149:11

156:10 194:4

MPC 162:5

184:1

MPCs 160:12

161:9 163:6

164:9 185:25

196:14,16

MPV 34:20

MTA 159:20,21

much 5:21

6:17 9:5 13:1

18:14 19:10

20:2,8 25:16

33:15 35:10

36:9 40:4

52:4 61:15

64:9 70:4

87:10 104:22

114:8 121:4

130:9 133:25

134:7 144:14

146:17 147:3

152:12 153:4

156:18,23

157:1 164:10

168:14,15

172:17

188:14,14,14

189:25 191:5

191:6 199:21

mull 15:8,12

multiple 58:19

65:4 112:2

166:16

167:24

201:16,24

multiples

47:22

multiplication

149:18

multiply

160:10

must 37:25,25

82:24 93:8

mute 34:7

N

N 1:4 2:1 3:1

NAECA 202:11

202:15

nailed 5:22

name 34:2

nameplate

100:1

narrow 96:14

national 29:15

34:20 87:8

133:1 149:12

149:13

150:10,20

152:5 155:14

175:11

Navigant 4:10

4:11,13 47:3

70:12 83:24

90:6 115:6

158:23

NDA 18:3

nearing 49:9

neat 154:8

necessarily

6:14 47:17

48:12,18

88:17 93:5

103:14 104:9

131:15

132:24

136:25 145:8

146:8 158:11

169:5 170:5

175:9 185:6

185:10

188:20 190:9

necessary

4:23 25:16

202:24 203:1

NEEA 3:23

12:4 14:14

19:4 22:1

53:11 58:24

105:4 189:4

need 24:24,25

35:2 36:10

37:15 59:7

61:24 62:11

64:9,10

66:21 81:16

88:8 96:1

105:22

107:13,21

110:2 114:8

114:10,13,17

139:2 155:3

166:5 167:10

170:24

188:10,15

195:20

198:17

needed 101:22

113:16

126:19

needs 17:11

114:12

117:20 179:1

negative 39:6

40:5 164:10

183:13

negotiate 50:6

65:12,19

66:21 69:12

112:10,17

133:19

148:20 204:6

negotiated

68:22 69:7

138:7 202:5

negotiating

7:9 69:10,17

154:11

185:14

193:22 194:3

negotiation

61:22 177:3

196:9

negotiations

5:2 48:7

64:21

neither 144:23

163:22

NES 150:20

net 8:14,16

44:7 51:2

55:14

never 182:1

202:11,15

new 21:19

26:17 49:7

49:14 52:7

62:19 77:3

78:7 125:6

126:4,9

127:22

134:23,24

135:1,5,10

135:11,14,16

135:21

136:22 139:2

144:14

146:16,17

147:15,16

150:1 159:7

161:9,11

168:11,23

169:11

172:24

175:14

185:17 188:6

195:4

next 8:25 10:9

11:11 16:11

19:2 22:4

28:6 78:23

96:14 102:19
Meeting June 1, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

32

107:22

124:21 126:8

134:22

151:22

167:21 173:5

180:22

NIA 149:7,10

150:16 155:4

nice 41:6

94:24 154:7

167:2 195:21

Nick 1:20 3:17

200:18

Nick's 18:20

night 21:25

nine 53:19

54:3 128:22

nitpicking

100:18

no-heat

120:25

NODA 185:4

nodding 67:14

nods 75:9,10

noise 87:17

88:17

nominal 71:22

72:5 76:6,9

nominate

102:11

non-compre...

152:15

non-DOE

165:22

non-trivial

176:20

non-weather...

81:22 87:11

89:15 97:24

98:4,8 101:9

101:13

nondisclosure

18:5

nonetheless

95:22

noontime 5:11

NOPR 11:16

12:8 22:3

26:11,14

27:5 29:7

31:7 33:7

43:16 55:20

55:25 129:11

159:10 161:8

164:25

174:10,22

175:11

176:25 177:9

188:2,21

189:23

194:21

201:21

nor 205:8,10

normal 32:6

155:18

170:17

189:19

northeast 35:5

Northwest

59:1

note 27:4

30:17 40:24

noted 65:13

112:11

140:22

notes 20:12

nothing 57:17

78:1 143:19

notice 14:15

49:7 76:6,14

146:20

164:25

noticed 91:13

notion 144:9

nowhere

177:23

NPV 8:25

150:5,18,21

153:13

156:10,12,15

158:11

NRDC 3:25

number 11:17

12:9 14:16

37:5 50:19

54:15 64:19

80:20 94:12

111:16

113:23

117:23

130:19

141:14

145:25

162:20

181:19

191:19

196:22,25

197:1 198:10

200:16,17

numbers 5:5

8:1,2,22 9:14

10:5 12:2,3,7

14:4 15:6,8

15:13 17:25

19:17 26:8

26:14 28:14

28:18 29:1

31:22 34:21

38:10,16

42:14 43:25

44:25 47:9

47:16 48:3,7

49:21,22

50:15,17

53:24 72:2

77:10,23

78:6 116:2

126:16,17

127:11,13

128:17

129:15,17

133:10,12

144:3,17

145:22

151:16

154:18,19

155:8,23

158:15,16

162:1 164:18

177:2,10

182:25

186:16,17

187:19,24,25

194:15,15

196:11,15

199:20,20

O

O 3:1

o'clock 5:10

46:18 106:3

106:5,6,9

109:25

113:21 114:3

203:13,14

204:17

objective

115:20

obligated 68:6

obvious 123:8

obviously

49:15 55:23

56:8 91:11

167:7 181:24

occur 10:13

occurred

10:23

occurring

11:21 156:16

occurs 65:22

112:20 129:7

off 3:7,9 6:3,22

27:5 53:23

57:9 83:13

85:17 106:22

110:4 124:2

128:20 142:4

160:1,15,24

160:25 161:3

161:10,11,11

164:16 165:8

170:1 178:25

185:5 197:14

197:21,21

198:1

Off-the-record

157:12

offer 83:21

92:11 116:10

174:11

offered 84:16

84:20 85:20

offering 84:16

84:17 174:13

offerings 10:1

164:3

offers 95:23

office 4:5

59:23 65:1

88:5 147:4

147:10

offline 67:20

71:14 116:21

offset 9:11

often 176:10

195:11

oh 13:11 14:21

14:21,23

18:14 30:13

32:22 37:21

38:3 46:4

73:17 78:18

78:21 79:17

105:20 106:4

111:6 118:10

136:23 156:5

158:13 174:5

175:21

oil 8:2,20

okay 3:2 4:24
Meeting June 1, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

33

4:25 6:2 7:5

13:10 14:23

20:9 22:22

26:16 27:22

30:13,14

31:22 32:8

32:19,22,25

34:8 37:17

37:21 38:4

42:24 46:12

46:17 63:12

70:11 73:17

74:16 75:2,2

76:4,5 78:21

79:7,20

81:14 82:21

86:10 90:16

93:4,11,14

95:10 99:15

100:3 101:15

102:13 103:6

104:3 105:11

105:24 106:4

106:8,11

107:9 109:22

111:24 113:5

114:22,23

116:11,17

117:12

118:24

119:20,22

120:16,19

122:11,23

123:4,15

124:20

125:25 126:4

126:12,25

127:19 136:6

136:11,15,23

136:24

137:16

149:10 155:6

155:13 156:5

157:3 158:18

158:22 162:7

167:23 174:5

176:7 177:19

178:11

199:10,25

old 12:6 13:16

13:18 14:16

88:20 126:9

older 39:1

88:16

OMB 150:6

153:14

once 27:16,16

69:2 124:18

137:16

188:13

203:11

one's 163:22

164:10

one-slide

71:10

one-third 13:8

39:9

ones 13:12

online 34:4

203:10

onto 106:1

open 91:11

127:9 187:10

196:8

open-ended

192:8

opened 79:18

148:9

opening

203:10

operate 80:18

80:19

operating 8:10

19:24 57:16

101:1 104:9

135:3 137:20

137:22 151:3

152:25 153:1

156:14,25

160:20 163:3

163:12,20

164:1 185:19

operation 21:9

21:10 38:24

97:13

operations

198:8

opinion 55:20

opportune

167:13

opportunity

15:12 29:11

192:22

196:16

opposed

19:22 20:7

51:13 63:3

83:12 122:7

130:12 193:5

optimal 86:20

Optimistically

46:2

optimize 175:6

175:13

optimizing

175:5

option 65:23

112:21

optional

104:18,21

options 34:12

104:11,12,17

195:3

order 12:14

13:25 20:18

25:2 27:25

72:11 80:22

81:17 86:19

115:19 116:6

117:6 121:4

156:4 166:5

169:23

184:20

187:10

orders 82:13

Oregon 53:15

organization

188:11

original 87:1

101:9

otherwise 20:5

68:21,24

72:3

ought 95:24

outcome 40:8

185:2

outcomes

108:24

outdoor 7:24

83:11 95:1

95:15,18,19

97:3 99:4,6

100:11,11,18

100:20 101:3

101:5,12

103:10,13

outdoors 99:9

outfit 95:2

outlet 81:12

100:15

output 155:3

outright 153:4

outset 6:18,20

outside 56:2,6

56:9 57:25

62:9 69:8

80:15 88:9

92:17,17

over 4:24 5:5

5:19,23 6:18

8:23 9:14

10:14,16,18

15:8,8,12

17:22,22

29:8,13 38:5

38:15 41:7

45:15 47:2

49:8,18

51:15,20

53:19 54:12

58:6 62:20

77:22 81:14

83:7 88:14

88:15 95:20

102:10

105:12 136:2

137:11,23

149:14

152:23,24

153:5 159:14

161:5,16

166:12

167:18

186:22

192:15 196:9

over-repres...

34:24

overall 19:13

117:16

145:11 151:5

overbuilding

147:18

overbuilt

147:12

overcoming

40:19

overestimated

7:18 156:3

overestimates

143:13

overlap 37:3

overlapping

184:2

overlaps 36:18

overlook

146:22

154:10

overview

70:14

overwhelm
Meeting June 1, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

34

105:2

overwhelming

8:18

overwhelmi...

34:10

own 10:1

49:21 201:2

owner 147:24

owners 41:13

51:18

P

P 1:4,4 2:1,1

3:1

pace 178:19

package 18:8

81:23 87:10

91:15,18,20

91:21,23

93:4,6,15

100:4 157:17

packaged

24:10 91:25

97:21

page 13:16

49:12 51:1

96:19 134:1

pages 48:10

paint 98:16

pairs 121:3

parallel 96:10

136:4 137:17

140:19

Pardon 200:14

paren 102:5

parent 68:1

parentheses

100:25 101:3

paresthetizing

89:6

parse 113:8

181:21

part 19:8 44:2

57:2 58:4,11

69:7 74:20

93:12 95:4

96:8 97:8

98:10 102:24

103:5,17

104:1 123:3

139:16 179:8

179:8,15,16

179:21 180:8

180:11,17

190:18 192:5

196:8 197:22

200:6

participate

4:22 131:4

participated

168:8

participation

69:9

particular

16:19 65:9

112:8 166:9

195:16

particularly

56:10,16

100:20

176:10

parties 63:18

124:4 138:7

205:8

parties' 205:9

parts 202:23

pass 106:16

114:23 163:8

past 6:6 51:24

62:20 67:17

84:16,20

85:20 88:3

138:17

147:20

161:16

189:13,20

path 100:11

193:12,13

paths 193:4

pathway 68:10

pathways

67:13 108:21

Paul 1:11 3:18

59:11 61:3

99:16 170:11

pause 9:21

15:11 45:6

pay 54:23,24

55:2

payback 15:16

43:21 47:20

47:21,23

50:14,25

51:2

paybacks

43:19 48:14

56:14

peel 131:18

penalty 103:18

penetration

30:4

people 34:11

49:2 51:11

51:20 52:11

89:13,17

111:23 131:9

145:9 146:7

157:4 169:20

177:2 191:11

197:6 198:2

198:8 203:22

per 19:21 47:7

47:8,9 50:3

55:25 56:8

62:7 83:3

84:4,10

99:24 145:15

151:15 165:2

166:12 169:8

177:1 187:1

per-dollar

164:5

per-unit

163:12,20

164:2

perceive

141:12

percent 7:18

7:22,23,24

7:24 8:14,17

9:6,7,13

12:15 13:2,5

13:24,25

15:24 16:8,8

20:21,23,24

22:3,5 23:2

23:12,21,24

25:1,2 26:11

28:15,15,15

28:19,19,20

32:15,17

34:17 35:4

37:22,23,23

39:11,17

40:10 42:17

42:18,18,19

43:7,8 44:7

44:10,12,13

44:19 49:9

49:18 51:2

54:14 55:13

60:14 76:18

77:1,2,4,5,6

77:12 128:15

134:8 136:13

144:13,17

145:24,25

146:16,17

150:7,7

153:10,13,14

156:11,16

182:5 186:20

186:21 187:2

188:1

percentage

12:12 28:2

32:1 34:10

36:8 71:25

76:22 135:20

140:15

160:22 163:5

181:21 183:4

198:1

percentages

16:2 132:23

134:7 152:10

196:14

percents

44:18

Perfect 46:18

performance

33:15 65:5

70:18 90:3

112:3 122:7

193:12

perhaps 22:14

24:4 53:21

66:22 88:6

97:12 100:25

108:7 116:18

188:24

191:15

period 15:16

47:21 136:2

139:16

149:14

150:23,25

151:2,4,20

161:5 166:13

186:22

periods 47:20

47:23

permission

111:11

permitted

203:5

perplexed

110:12

personally

128:14
Meeting June 1, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

35

31:8,24

32:10 114:7

180:11 189:5

PG&E 3:24

18:1 54:21

84:1 94:13

phased-in

65:6,18

107:6 112:4

112:16

phone 34:7

111:21

phones 4:22

phrase 195:16

pick 18:13

23:22 154:11

198:20

picked 56:23

75:22 174:10

picture 19:5

19:13 145:1

151:10

piece 22:17

64:18 82:6

82:14 144:7

pieces 167:3

201:4

piping 60:1

place 166:1,6

174:15

178:18

198:12

places 156:16

172:8

placing 22:17

plan 53:11,12

54:8,8 107:2

planning 173:6

plant 197:16

197:17

plants 151:19

plate 99:3,5,5

platform 167:5

175:8 192:12

platforms

166:17

167:24

169:19

play 111:8

169:12

185:11

pleased 18:11

18:11,21

plenum 80:5

81:3,5

plenums 82:22

plow 6:7 15:15

plus 22:5

36:12 136:8

170:11

PNNL 60:10

point 5:4,21

6:12 11:16

18:13 20:12

21:14 26:14

28:5 36:5

40:5 41:20

41:21,22

42:4 43:11

43:12 45:7

45:24 49:20

52:16 54:25

56:19 58:16

62:7 63:25

75:23,23

88:24 96:7

97:17 100:3

101:15 104:7

107:18

121:11

124:16 132:9

132:25 142:8

142:20

144:16

146:13

148:19 157:3

163:11 169:1

173:19

174:20

176:14

188:15

190:14

203:20

pointed

194:16

201:23

pointing

145:10

158:14

points 23:9

49:15 50:7

71:1 97:19

100:4 194:18

policy 48:6

50:7 133:10

population

134:25

populations

172:24

pork 155:10

portable 92:6

95:6

portion 5:20

12:24 19:8

29:12 42:11

42:12 140:12

portrait 41:17

posed 67:11

positions

108:24

154:11

positive 8:17

8:20

possibility

95:7 189:3

possible 67:4

104:24

107:11

109:25 154:1

possibly 21:10

89:22 110:3

posted 43:24

156:9

potential

87:11 89:5

95:23,24

108:21,24,24

109:6 159:1

170:12,15,23

193:13

potentially

99:13 114:12

115:18

134:19

154:10

156:13 190:7

198:9 202:20

power 11:10

37:23 39:21

53:11,12

54:8,8 56:5

56:13 71:15

115:22,24

117:5,15

120:8 124:9

powers 11:11

125:12

PPI 140:23

practice 55:7

200:12,18

predict 65:9

112:7 122:6

preferred

193:12

prepared 64:2

70:14 71:3

prescriptive

90:1 103:8

191:20 192:3

192:11

prescriptively

192:16

prescriptives

192:22

present 11:25

21:3,3 29:15

45:1 64:11

109:6 153:15

157:2 159:10

164:15 177:1

199:5

presentation

5:12 62:24

177:1,11

presentations

159:11

presented

17:12 42:21

46:23 65:3

65:23 68:1

78:18 112:1

112:21 146:4

168:3 203:15

presenting

18:5 70:12

70:23 158:24

Presently

99:11

preservation

162:18 163:2

163:2,3,25

164:1

preserve

185:19

pressure 11:9

12:22 19:23

41:3,11

59:13,19

60:16,18,21

60:24 89:21

90:7,8 94:9

95:1,18,19

96:3 97:2

101:16

102:17

104:18 105:7

118:12,19,21

120:2,6

122:5 124:7

124:10,14
Meeting June 1, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

36

125:10,14,16

pressures

60:11

presumably

31:1

presume

108:19

pretty 5:21

35:10 48:19

54:15 59:2

86:7 123:8

136:5 138:17

142:4 143:11

152:12 153:5

155:23,23

156:18,23

157:1 158:25

172:17

193:19 195:1

195:5 196:15

202:8,17,20

204:12

previous 13:11

14:3 47:7

72:13 81:8

previously

65:13 112:11

202:5

price 41:13

137:9,11,12

137:13,23

140:23 144:4

144:10,25

145:2,2,5

156:14

186:19

prices 140:25

141:21 152:8

152:23 153:6

164:8

pricing 164:7

184:3 186:18

primarily

161:15

primary 10:11

150:10

151:21

principally

89:4

prior 32:11

39:10 138:16

143:2

probably 18:9

21:8 24:17

26:4 34:6

35:20 37:8

39:3 46:1

86:23 96:21

102:15 116:8

128:13,15

129:3,4

134:18

140:15

153:20 172:4

173:8 180:25

189:18 195:8

196:23

202:25

problem 54:22

160:19 190:3

problematic

6:10 56:17

problems

189:13

procedurally

64:12 69:25

109:23

procedure

56:2,6,8,20

57:25 58:1,4

58:11,25

59:2,9,12,22

60:6,23 61:6

61:12 62:8

62:10 83:12

99:24 102:20

procedures

97:12 103:4

proceedings

205:5

process 48:20

67:21,23,25

68:8,22,25

96:8 113:13

121:17 126:8

132:1 153:21

153:25

165:20

166:10,24

189:22

190:15,18,19

191:18,24

192:11

194:11,12

195:8,8

200:14 202:8

processes

189:19

processing

134:14

produce 94:21

Producer

140:23

product 9:4

10:1 32:4

33:21 36:18

37:3 61:10

61:13 79:22

81:6 82:17

83:12 87:9

89:2 91:22

92:5,9,9,10

92:15 95:4

96:9 99:5

105:1 135:2

135:3,8,21

144:14 145:4

145:13,23

150:13,15

154:21

164:10

165:21 166:2

166:3,8,9,17

167:6 168:9

168:13

169:15,17

173:22

174:25 175:4

175:4,7,10

175:12,15,20

175:21

180:19 182:2

183:19,20,21

183:22 186:8

190:16

191:10,11,22

195:6,10,11

195:15,17,18

195:19 197:7

197:17

production

159:18

160:11 162:5

174:19 197:7

productive

64:20

products

34:13 52:23

71:8,9 77:14

78:4 82:23

82:25 85:1,5

91:8 115:5

132:16 146:5

164:17

165:16,18

169:1,3

172:6 175:18

176:10

179:17

183:15 188:7

190:15

191:13

201:20

profile 54:20

71:13 115:14

116:13,24

profit 163:3,12

163:16,20

164:1,2

183:16

185:19

program 51:12

51:21

programs

171:5

prohibited

203:5

Project 3:14

projected

143:6,11

152:20

projection

28:25 134:16

140:13,14

projections

135:4,5

138:19

promised 71:6

prompted 87:1

properly 25:3

131:23 132:4

proportion

42:7

proportional

145:5

proposal

107:11,24

108:15 109:6

110:5 181:16

194:4,10

203:15,19

proposals

90:6 108:17

proposed

108:20 176:4

181:14

proprietary

18:2,19

protected 18:2

18:3
Meeting June 1, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

37

proud 182:9

182:13

provide 6:4

71:12 115:13

115:19 116:6

118:4,7

129:15,16

132:11 134:4

187:8,10

189:1 195:14

199:3

provided

26:14 30:12

49:14 62:5

63:17 64:4

87:2 115:16

116:12

132:17

168:21,22,25

169:4 199:12

199:18,19

provides

135:8 192:12

providing

129:5

provisions

100:12,15

public 43:16

48:10 49:22

55:18 119:9

130:5 164:17

203:10

pulling 37:6

188:25

pump 71:8

81:22 92:1

100:23

156:19

198:19

pumps 115:6

121:2 127:3

127:14

140:24

purchase

156:14

purchasers

150:3

purchasing

51:18

purported

47:22

purpose 68:9

158:25

purposes

128:4 134:5

159:5

pursuant

65:15,25

112:12,23

push 171:4

put 23:1 40:2

48:10,15

61:6 68:12

79:22 88:14

89:14 90:16

94:1 95:10

97:19 99:3,4

102:16

106:18

107:11,25

108:17 109:8

109:19 117:4

117:13

119:17

124:13,23

127:5 128:3

152:5 185:4

198:9,10

201:2 203:15

puts 97:22

putting 107:20

118:18

142:18 170:3

Q

quadruple

168:5

quads 9:3,18

133:5,5,6,7

151:18

quaff 7:8,10

203:24

qualified 99:3

qualify 99:2

qualifying

98:14

quality 141:13

quantify 193:3

quarter 46:2

64:13

question 9:24

18:17 24:6

35:8,12 42:5

44:1,22 51:5

56:11 62:2

63:22 67:20

78:9 82:16

93:3 95:12

100:2 102:14

103:7 111:6

115:18

116:11 117:1

117:8 118:3

121:8,21

129:6 131:17

132:6 135:23

136:18

141:11

145:21

157:15 162:8

162:10 171:2

171:7,12

173:10 177:4

178:3,17

179:24 180:1

180:4 181:3

187:13

191:20 192:1

192:7 199:11

200:9,10

201:15

202:10

questions 5:5

5:15 9:22

10:8 15:13

45:8 46:14

46:22,23

47:2 62:4

64:11,19

65:21 67:11

78:22 106:14

107:13

111:25

112:19 157:6

158:21

168:22

queue 64:24

quick 115:1

154:19

157:15

198:22

quick-serve

147:25

quicker 46:4,5

quickly 5:21

108:11 113:8

quite 26:7 52:1

77:6,22

85:16 109:13

109:20

141:14

196:12,17

quorum 3:5

R

R 1:4 2:1 3:1

R&D 160:22

165:21

rain 98:14,15

raise 6:20

19:23 144:4

164:7

raised 5:5

52:15 62:4

62:21,22

65:2 111:25

179:15

raises 11:8

raising 62:23

114:4

Ramirez 1:21

3:12,12

50:20 62:2

62:11 64:7

64:12,24

66:1,3,5,14

69:24 70:4,9

79:6 105:14

105:25 106:3

106:8 109:23

113:1,5,20

116:7 123:23

124:1,11

126:11

144:18 157:8

164:12 202:3

203:8 204:2

204:8

ramps 13:4

ran 100:24

range 9:16,17

47:8,9 71:25

76:20 83:2

118:23

124:14

128:15

176:18

ranges 90:12

94:9 129:8

Ransom 2:10

4:16

ratcheted

167:25

rate 48:17

103:11,13

144:12

156:11,22

157:16 161:2

rated 99:9

103:10,10,13
Meeting June 1, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

38

103:22 104:8

104:13,19

rates 146:21

146:23,24

147:15 150:6

152:9 153:12

rather 31:4

105:19

rating 99:3,4,5

103:18 104:7

104:24

ratings 115:7

120:24

121:23,24,24

121:25 122:3

122:8

raw 29:1

Ray 2:21 4:19

re-rating

165:18

react 65:3

112:1

reaction

203:25

read 91:24

92:9 110:18

110:19 111:3

111:5,13

202:19

readily 147:2

reading 46:24

68:19 142:4

readout

181:22

ready 119:20

172:2,14,21

182:20

real 20:6 59:3

59:6 122:7

133:10 154:8

180:9 189:19

realistic 52:4

126:20

163:22

reality 26:1

57:23 169:1

realize 58:19

realized 91:8

realizing 41:14

really 8:7 12:9

20:3,4,8

24:15,17

25:6,7,8 26:3

26:5 29:11

35:5 36:20

37:2 39:3

44:4,20 55:9

55:14 59:9

60:16,18

66:21 86:13

91:9 94:24

95:18 98:1

107:13,21,25

108:10

109:10

110:12 111:2

111:12,15

116:1 126:7

126:15

130:23 145:7

154:7 159:5

164:8 165:15

165:17,25

166:7 168:1

168:1 172:6

177:20

179:24 180:1

180:4,7

189:23

191:13 201:8

reason 13:7

20:25 31:21

51:12 54:25

69:9 77:12

84:24 96:8

101:13 127:4

165:7 181:14

181:15

reasons

200:21

recalculate

125:12

recall 11:18

20:13 35:19

74:13 145:14

recalling 13:1

13:2 28:18

recap 198:22

receive 16:11

received 6:5

126:6 127:22

131:21 159:6

165:17

receives

129:20

receiving

125:10

recent 138:17

152:19

recess 46:19

106:10

158:20

recession

143:25

146:14 147:8

recessions

147:13

recharacterize

185:23

recognize

197:10

198:14

recollection

58:5 75:7,8

recommend...

65:3,8,10,12

65:20,22

67:17 112:1

112:6,8,10

112:18,20

180:12,15

reconcile

20:18 23:15

98:9

record 111:5

119:9 124:2

130:5 138:14

182:7,9

200:1 205:6

recorded

111:7

recording

198:20

recovered

142:16,16

recovery

142:10

146:15

recraft 102:10

red 73:17

126:10 127:2

127:20,21

128:1 133:23

143:20

redesign

165:16 166:1

166:3,5

169:3,15,16

169:17,23

170:8,18

174:8,18

184:18,20

195:17,20

redesigning

166:7 168:12

169:15

200:23

redo 118:16

reduce 28:9

40:4 163:11

179:18

reduces 8:9

40:3

reducing

38:24,25

reduction

137:14

reductions

135:20

reengineer

85:2

referencing

47:19

referred 192:9

referring 57:4

refine 82:15

reflect 28:16

59:9 97:13

121:24

152:19

167:11

reflected

11:23 144:17

192:13

reflection

60:16 161:15

reflective

44:11 59:5

196:12

reflects 59:3

100:3

refrigerant

170:12

180:22

182:15

refrigeration

57:5 184:19

184:20,25

refringent 60:1

regarding 71:7

71:17 72:4

90:14 134:15

201:16

regardless

162:11

region 152:8

202:7

regulated

181:23

regulating
Meeting June 1, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

39

65:14 112:12

regulation

170:17 189:6

regulations

65:4 112:2

171:16

regulatory

176:22 177:6

179:18,25

181:15 182:8

182:18 184:5

reinvestment

170:2,24

reiterating

156:6

rejected 12:17

related 116:25

117:2 136:12

145:2 167:5

relates 190:15

relationship

121:15

relative 14:2

38:12 39:23

43:9 44:24

127:6 136:13

147:12

148:17,19

156:22

194:10 205:7

205:9

relatively

29:13 38:25

39:1 88:3

144:14

147:14

release 116:15

119:1,4,15

122:22

123:16,22

releasing

116:17

118:24

relevant

153:20

reliably 145:12

relook 167:15

reluctant

116:15

relying 133:20

remain 137:17

remainder

203:18

remaining

114:9 141:10

remains

129:21 132:2

137:12

remember 8:4

12:9,15 33:9

44:2 76:25

85:4 134:10

remind 29:25

52:11

reminder 23:6

44:16

reminds

184:14

remove 204:10

repair 145:19

145:24 151:5

151:6,24

152:11

repair/replace

135:16

repairs 140:3

152:15,16

repeat 15:1

116:8 142:23

161:20

repeated 7:20

replace 24:24

25:7,9 87:12

151:6

replacement

135:12,15

136:21

144:13 147:2

replacing 14:5

52:24

report 48:1

94:22 130:5

130:17

151:16

reported 15:25

130:19

131:24

168:14,16

reporter 66:24

205:1,4

reporter's

106:22

reporting

129:13 132:6

200:13

represent

60:19 127:25

128:1,3,22

160:3

representati...

72:7

representative

48:19,25

49:17 60:5,6

61:2,4

125:16

126:21

represented

20:15 40:9

72:5 76:7,8

76:10,17

representing

21:7 39:17

123:3

represents

30:2 60:18

127:14

137:21

reproduced

135:17

request 71:11

requested

115:13

117:25 135:7

152:16

require 72:17

73:6,25 74:5

76:1 77:18

172:23

required 27:24

27:24 72:12

76:22 99:25

163:15

192:15,19,20

195:3

requirement

83:11 89:21

90:1 95:25

96:3 103:9

153:14

requirements

82:1 91:9

93:17 99:2

192:13

requires

201:18

requiring

178:20

reread 110:24

rerun 134:23

167:10

research 90:11

residential

65:16 96:10

112:14 176:3

181:6,8

182:14 202:5

residual 151:1

resolve 116:19

197:12

respond 65:9

66:10 112:7

responding

141:24

response

63:15 69:19

107:12 145:1

responses

168:9

responsibility

193:19

responsive

116:4

rest 69:18

116:19 124:9

124:23 153:7

170:5 172:19

restart 158:19

restaurants

147:25

result 7:21

23:18 58:23

162:1 163:14

182:21,22

resulting

33:14 42:2

results 8:11,12

8:12 11:2

12:1 21:13

38:6 39:10

43:3 45:8

63:24 69:23

121:19

134:24 135:2

140:1 150:11

152:4 154:3

156:4 158:24

159:8 162:1

162:4 182:20

retail 37:8,13

retailers 61:15

retain 97:9

140:3

retraction

55:15,16,19

62:25

retrofit 88:18

retrofits 88:1

146:20

return 61:5,11
Meeting June 1, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

40

returns 10:20

61:19

revenue

160:11,22,22

163:7 183:16

reversed 7:25

8:1

review 74:11

106:24

112:25 115:7

115:10 121:9

121:23

reviewed

199:7

reviewing

203:19

revise 167:13

revised 6:4

43:22 78:13

137:1 170:23

revisions 43:2

167:11

Rheem 62:6

66:6 106:17

132:12

148:24

right 3:6 5:1

7:6 10:3,16

11:19 13:10

14:16,21

18:3 19:18

22:23 24:6

25:5 26:14

27:2,14,21

27:21 30:12

31:2 32:2,7

33:11 34:10

34:19,25,25

35:17 36:13

38:15 40:16

40:21 42:16

42:17 44:19

49:20 50:13

51:6,17

52:20 54:7

54:12 57:20

58:12 61:24

62:2 64:15

66:3 68:12

68:17 69:13

69:13,24

72:24 73:11

73:18 75:23

78:16 79:11

82:1,19

86:25 88:7

88:24 89:11

89:16,18

90:9 91:13

93:2,2 95:21

96:5 98:11

98:12 100:5

101:6 103:23

103:23 104:3

104:13

105:15,25

106:8 110:14

110:15 113:6

113:13,20,24

114:2 116:19

117:10,15,23

117:24

118:21,23

121:15,19,23

121:25 122:3

122:14 123:5

124:15,19,20

124:20 125:1

125:3,24

127:8 128:12

130:18,25

131:7,8

132:8,25

133:2 134:9

134:10 137:8

137:10

138:25

139:12

143:15 146:1

146:23

147:14

154:11 158:1

158:1,2,8,11

158:12,18

162:16,18

166:3 168:3

169:21

170:25

171:10,13,16

171:25 172:2

173:11,15

174:2,22,22

175:1,2,6,8

178:12 179:7

179:12

180:18

183:11,13,19

184:2,7,15

185:9,24

186:6,17,20

186:25

187:15

190:12,14

191:8 193:5

193:12,21

195:23

196:14,14,25

196:25 197:7

197:22 200:2

200:3 202:20

203:8,12,21

204:8,10,16

204:17

right-hand

78:11 81:12

rise 146:19

rolled 165:22

roof 41:6

88:22,23,25

89:14

rooftop 24:9

30:24 34:17

47:20 59:17

88:25 100:7

100:14

145:15,16

rooftop-chal...

43:20

rooftops 89:18

room 3:9 9:24

81:18 90:20

93:19,20,21

97:15 106:12

113:22,23

176:12

189:12

203:13

204:14

Rosenquist

1:22 4:9,9

6:21 7:5,13

10:7 12:10

12:13,25

13:11,20

14:11,24

17:7 18:4,8

19:16,20

20:10 21:18

21:21,25

22:11,23

23:5 24:2

25:11 26:13

26:19,21,23

27:1,3,19,22

28:14 29:2

30:11,16

31:19,23

32:9,17,20

32:23 33:3,9

34:5,14

35:19,21

36:1 38:4

40:16,21

41:19 42:9

42:16,20,25

44:8,21 45:4

45:19,25

46:5,9 127:1

127:18 128:6

156:6

rough 128:23

140:16

roughly 15:21

16:1,2 23:7

39:9 42:22

74:4 76:25

77:5 146:16

165:2 166:12

round 15:17

row 14:22

rows 86:19

RTU 87:13

RTUs 53:13

89:6 146:15

rule 56:21,25

57:8 58:25

65:15,24

67:14 68:15

68:22 69:2,3

69:5 112:13

112:22 128:9

151:3 159:24

164:9 176:9

183:12 184:6

184:11

191:19

193:24

201:25

rule-by-rule

194:17

ruled 129:21

rulemakings

164:6 170:6

rules 57:10

123:13

150:22

183:12,15

184:7,15

194:15

run 104:12
Meeting June 1, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

41

149:20

188:11 198:7

running

108:10

140:19

Rusty 2:2 3:20

47:4 50:10

62:21 114:15

122:19,21,24

168:7 188:3

Rusty's 123:10

123:12

S

S 1:4 2:1,25

3:1 205:3,17

Sachs 1:23

3:22,22

21:15,19

45:17,22

46:24 57:3

74:12,16

82:7,9,9,15

82:20 87:7

87:15,20

89:1,23 92:3

92:13 93:7

94:24 95:8

95:17,22

96:7 100:17

101:8,25

102:11 103:7

103:15,20,23

104:1,22

106:6 111:15

113:7,14,17

120:20 121:7

134:2 140:17

141:3,8,10

143:16,18,22

146:2,12,23

160:16,18

182:6 183:6

191:16 192:7

192:19,21

193:6 200:9

203:3

sales 87:23

88:3 89:6

146:15 147:3

salt 98:15

same 8:15,21

9:2 21:9 35:1

37:1 41:8,10

50:17,18

58:23 68:25

70:24 72:3

72:13 74:3

75:13 82:4

82:18,19

87:5 94:12

100:16,24

119:5 126:22

135:18 139:1

140:3 153:24

156:23

157:25

162:11,13

163:5,12,18

163:20

169:25 173:2

175:9,12

180:19 183:9

183:20,21,22

183:23,24

187:1 194:7

198:4

Sami 2:7 4:3

173:14,18

190:20

sample 23:20

sanity-chec...

187:19

sat 155:24

sauce 155:10

SAV 25:23

28:8

save 38:1

saved 182:1

saving 51:4

savings 8:10

8:17,19,25

9:1,2,7,10,19

19:6,8,9

29:15 34:20

39:5 40:6

41:21,22

42:4 43:7,8

43:12 55:24

56:1,19,23

57:14 87:8

133:1 140:11

149:13,19

150:10,16,19

150:20,24

151:4 153:1

154:23

155:14,18

156:11,14,25

191:1,21

192:4

saw 7:25 8:15

8:21 9:3 14:2

25:5 38:16

38:21 43:10

44:25 75:22

81:8 90:5,6

93:18 101:18

101:20

109:12

145:22

147:13

say 6:5,17

9:13 12:20

13:8 17:22

21:22 22:2

24:2,8,19

27:8 31:12

32:4 34:15

40:7 43:1,4,5

45:10,13

46:17 48:22

53:5,22

60:14 64:14

67:9,10

69:12 70:5

73:13 77:18

84:23 85:19

98:7,8 99:6

100:21,25

102:22 107:7

107:7 113:8

117:18 120:9

127:2 128:11

137:2 147:24

154:20

157:20

158:11

166:23

168:19

169:14

171:17

173:20

175:10,20

185:19 186:2

186:3 187:23

189:18 190:4

190:8 194:24

197:5 203:4

saying 17:21

18:20 23:1

31:17 37:9

47:16 48:4

50:5,16 60:4

61:1,6 68:18

68:19 70:6

73:18 100:10

119:14 130:2

134:3 136:7

139:11 144:8

151:10

162:10 163:4

167:23 169:7

169:14 172:5

174:9 185:20

186:17 203:6

says 24:10

95:3,10

133:5 136:18

194:5,5

scale 47:16

48:5 50:3,3

50:14 73:3

126:19 160:3

160:12

167:10

172:21

scaled 133:12

133:13

scales 186:10

scaling 30:1

49:25 129:3

133:1 174:19

scenario

125:14 163:4

163:10

182:23,23

scenarios

161:14,18,23

162:3,12,16

163:1,24

182:21

schedule 6:2

scheduled

109:25

schools 88:15

88:17

screams 39:3

screen 137:24

screwed

172:25

se 136:19

145:15 177:1

SEC 159:21

161:3 164:16

second 67:6

126:11 160:8

183:2

Secretary

178:5
Meeting June 1, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

42

section 80:14

81:10,11

82:2,3

100:11,19,22

135:19

152:13

158:22

194:20

sections 82:17

sector 153:10

security 170:9

170:10

see 5:17 6:3

7:23,23 8:8

9:21 11:21

11:23,24

12:7 13:21

14:1,15,18

17:18 20:8

21:13 22:19

25:4 27:13

27:16,17

29:14 33:11

42:16 45:5

48:13 52:3

55:13 56:15

66:12 67:13

69:7 73:2,2

73:16,20

81:10 90:2

90:11 100:5

104:15,16

105:5,7

106:4 107:1

109:23

110:14

111:18

115:22

117:14,17

121:15,19

122:6 124:2

125:7 128:17

129:23,24

130:1,3

135:13

138:15

139:15 140:1

141:7,9,25

142:11,12,17

147:19

155:16

156:15 157:6

157:18,19

158:14

170:18

176:13,14

177:10

182:24,24

190:3 194:11

200:15,17

204:17

seeing 9:14

11:11 15:2

36:11 51:9

51:15 54:11

138:21,22,22

138:23 143:4

143:6 189:13

seen 11:1,12

39:24 45:13

49:21 71:12

SEER 65:17

112:15

sees 186:21

selected 58:21

73:11 168:24

selections

76:21

sell 92:8

164:10

175:10,13

sellers 88:4

selling 51:7,8

send 71:7

119:20

124:13

sending

119:21

sends 106:21

sense 19:12

41:10,24

84:9 145:6

164:8

sensitive

51:13,14

153:1

sensitivity

25:12 139:23

152:22 153:4

sent 71:9

115:7 120:23

131:25

sentences

110:20

separate 92:14

93:21 96:9

184:3,3

195:20

separated

93:15

series 140:23

serious 190:14

seriously

111:16

serrated 92:19

service 53:15

204:13

session 92:4

set 7:14 23:5,8

39:10,25

41:20 59:12

61:23 124:18

154:17 155:4

175:17 190:6

sets 5:4 27:17

30:21 121:3

setting 123:19

settled 101:18

seven 72:19

119:12

128:22,25

129:2,8

131:14,14,16

131:21 136:9

168:5 178:4

178:6

seven-and-a...

11:4,15 12:2

15:25 16:6

20:22 23:12

23:21 28:16

30:18 35:23

37:15 38:9

42:11 45:11

49:17 55:12

56:11,16

58:15 71:16

115:17

116:14

117:25 118:3

118:6 119:7

119:11,17

123:18 126:3

126:23,24

199:2,14

seven-and-a...

199:22

seven-minute

113:16

seventh 53:12

several 62:20

63:6 161:16

187:21

severely 168:6

SG&A 160:21

shall 111:13

Shannon

200:19

share 7:22 9:6

9:13 16:12

16:13 20:10

20:19 21:6

26:12 27:10

29:22 51:19

54:15 128:24

129:13 130:6

130:7 149:2

165:8 191:6

191:6

shares 26:18

30:15 132:23

sharp 137:10

sheets 131:23

Shepherd 2:25

205:3,17

shift 28:7 53:8

77:24 141:11

shifted 7:22

9:5

shifts 201:8

ship 54:1

150:14

shipment 18:2

18:18 94:14

107:22

109:11

148:23 159:7

162:5 186:17

199:20

shipment-w...

199:15,20

shipments 6:5

6:5,12 16:12

16:14,20

23:10,13,23

23:24 29:4

29:12 30:25

34:19,24

36:13,13

62:22,25

63:1 64:3

71:24,25

72:4 76:9,19

113:9 114:25

126:6,9,14

126:21,24

127:22

134:16,18,23

135:4,5,6,9

135:11,12,14
Meeting June 1, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

43

135:21,24

136:2,20,21

136:22 137:1

139:12

140:16

142:14,18,25

143:4,13

149:7,17,21

150:1,13

151:9,11

155:25 159:6

159:17,17

160:10,12

161:11

162:10,11,21

167:11 182:5

186:11

shipped 81:25

82:11 151:3

shipping 78:1

ships 150:25

short 8:9

188:17,23

Shorthand

205:3

shortly 64:23

should 5:10

7:20 8:7

14:12 22:14

28:3 30:17

30:19 35:12

35:17,20

36:1,2 43:5

48:4 54:8

67:11 69:16

121:19

123:21

124:15

149:10 178:1

180:3 187:17

193:24

202:11

shouldn't

77:18

show 18:22,25

25:23 26:17

29:24 60:4

72:15 125:15

126:9 138:17

150:9 188:19

201:4

showed 22:14

25:22 43:19

43:21 70:22

134:7 188:8

201:12,13

showing 28:10

51:3 72:21

77:23 79:24

142:25

144:21

shown 130:12

138:6 147:3

190:22

shows 2:19

4:19 8:25

33:24 34:5

59:4 71:24

72:2,24 78:6

81:12 94:3,5

135:6 145:8

183:2 186:24

201:3

shrimp 155:10

shut 148:4,5,5

side 3:8 12:16

30:7 80:11

80:12,12,17

81:13 89:4

89:22 92:16

93:9 95:16

97:3 109:13

119:25 120:7

120:17

150:21

182:14 188:4

188:12 195:6

195:12

200:11

sign 18:4

147:11

significant

53:8 82:16

93:9 95:4

147:19

152:14

178:21

significantly

28:3 44:24

45:13 56:13

175:18

189:24

190:17

similar 10:5

65:13 68:22

81:8 91:9,9

112:11 118:8

202:1,2,9

similar-type

183:13

simple 48:13

59:23 60:6

simplifies 78:1

simultaneous

70:8 122:18

157:11 196:7

since 25:16

38:18 39:24

58:11 78:25

81:2 87:3

108:10

115:12 126:5

159:9,11

161:8 196:16

200:12

201:20

singed 7:3

single 81:23

82:6,14

91:14,18,19

91:21,23

93:4,6,15

100:4 167:5

201:19

single-stage

39:13

sister's 123:11

sit 170:8

site 151:17

site-to-source

151:17

sits 68:4

sitting 155:20

196:24

situation

48:11 57:22

103:1 144:15

166:6 202:9

situations

143:5 202:24

six 42:17

62:16 72:19

sixth 53:11

54:8

size 12:22

72:17 73:2,6

73:23,25

74:5,9 77:8

77:16,20,21

78:3 84:5

129:7 192:15

192:18

sizes 84:15

skew 122:2

skewing 36:20

37:6

skip 5:23

10:16 126:6

skipped 132:3

sleep 113:17

slide 8:25

11:11 23:9

49:12 70:16

79:24 81:24

89:8 90:21

94:25 96:14

114:24

126:12,13

135:19

136:18,25

140:22

149:11

151:22

157:22

186:24

190:22

slides 5:18

12:6 13:17

13:18 22:14

26:8 46:25

47:6 72:19

73:9 78:11

79:4 126:9

134:14

149:11

158:25 160:6

slight 137:13

152:24

slightly 40:18

77:10 78:6

137:22

140:17

slow 146:14

slowly 110:18

110:25 111:3

111:16

SMACNA 47:6

47:10 52:2

small 12:23

22:2 34:9

42:7,13

70:23 71:22

72:8 77:11

78:17 83:20

92:6,18,18

94:17 137:18

156:17,19

157:17 158:5

166:14

small-diame...
Meeting June 1, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

44

96:10

smaller 49:8

95:5 147:3

149:1

smart 111:20

111:23

Smartphone

111:19

smartphones

111:22

smell 51:6

smooth

139:14

SN 136:19

SNOPR 69:3

sold 160:17

182:2

solid 128:12

128:19

some 5:5,6,13

5:23,24 10:5

13:19,19

20:12 31:21

33:1 35:25

36:5,7 37:8

41:24 43:17

52:2,10,10

60:13 63:23

70:17,18

71:2,3,14

74:8,18

76:12 77:13

78:3 80:19

83:3 85:3,4,4

85:7 86:16

86:23 87:1

88:11 89:20

90:6,8,11,13

91:7 92:19

93:17,18

94:3,4 96:6

97:19 101:23

102:6 105:21

107:12,16

108:17,18,19

108:20,23

109:13

114:16,16

115:7,7

116:8,9

117:17,22

121:10 122:4

124:17,21

128:13 129:3

129:14 131:4

133:14

134:20

135:14

137:18 140:4

140:21

141:21 146:6

149:6,18,25

156:2 157:4

159:14,22

160:4,21

164:22 165:4

167:25

169:20 170:8

172:3 173:10

173:20,21

174:23,23,24

176:14 179:9

180:7 182:5

188:25 189:1

189:13

190:16 191:9

193:1,3

194:23

195:20,20

198:8,9

199:3,3,7

202:17

203:14

204:14,14

somebody

95:9 102:10

130:9 136:8

147:1

someone

31:16 86:5

198:21

Someone's

102:21

something

21:5 24:13

24:17,20

25:9 26:9

29:17 35:10

37:24 40:25

44:3 48:6

50:20 51:5

52:18 69:10

69:12 73:3

74:10 78:25

86:3 88:21

89:5 90:2

92:20 99:8

100:19 101:2

102:19 108:7

108:11

109:19,20

110:3 116:3

116:5,18

137:23 144:4

148:7 153:19

166:16

169:22

180:21 181:1

185:23

188:18

192:18

194:11

196:20,20

sometime

180:22

sometimes

55:8 88:15

88:19 98:20

somewhat

56:1 81:3,6

156:3 174:22

186:16

189:23

197:21

somewhere

32:15 33:8

soon 67:4

174:1

sorry 14:9

18:16 27:19

33:24 34:1,4

34:8 45:1

64:13 96:16

103:15

105:17,17

126:11

136:25

154:25 155:1

157:24

161:19

164:12

180:23 183:6

183:8

sort 9:16 16:3

16:22 31:9

37:9 62:13

62:14,14

67:19 84:11

87:15 126:22

133:25

137:21

139:14

142:12,17

144:24 150:2

151:1 153:9

153:15 155:3

162:18 178:3

186:12

187:14 189:1

198:9

sound 102:1

111:12

sounded

79:10

sounds 34:6

54:17 122:9

188:18

source 151:18

southeast

54:19

southwest

202:7

SP 89:25

space 37:14

85:4 86:19

86:24 88:7,8

139:1,13

147:4,10

148:9

space- 82:21

space-const...

81:3,6,15

span 118:21

speak 29:18

84:13,13

172:13 186:1

SPEAKER

4:15 13:18

37:16 38:2

45:3,18,20

46:4 50:8

54:10 70:3

74:21 79:12

79:15,18

80:8 92:25

110:21 111:7

111:20 114:1

119:9 122:17

123:12 133:7

134:6 148:22

164:14 185:8

197:13

200:15

speaking 57:7

70:8 103:12

122:18

157:11 196:7

speaks 184:4

spec 147:10

147:10
Meeting June 1, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

45

specific 63:4

93:17 98:1

99:1 160:22

167:3,4,9

168:17 186:1

195:22

specifically

11:13 47:6

51:1 74:15

93:24 160:21

168:23 177:7

179:9 202:11

specifications

98:11

specified

16:14 24:8

spectrum

59:20

speed 121:16

spend 198:2

spent 25:16

52:9 74:8

split 26:24

30:15 35:25

53:13 54:22

76:9 81:24

82:1,4,13

93:24 100:4

100:20

splits 82:6

splittable

91:14,15,17

91:21

spokespeople

62:17

spot 178:17

203:6

spray 98:15

spreadsheet

119:20

122:11 140:5

spreadsheets

5:6 115:14

116:13

120:23

155:22

SPVU 92:5,14

92:21

SPVUs 95:5

square 73:3

138:18

SR 136:19

stable 142:4,6

staff 34:6

stage 13:14

37:16,17

153:23

staged 16:15

16:21 22:6

22:20 23:10

23:13,25

24:16,20,21

24:22,25

25:9 27:24

28:2,12,23

35:13,16

36:5 37:17

37:18,25

39:14 57:16

57:20,21

58:2,3

stages 192:17

stand 103:11

117:24

standalone

8:24

standard 3:14

9:1 28:6

59:25 65:5,5

65:18 83:16

84:22,24,25

85:2 87:10

89:3 94:10

95:11 97:9

99:10,24

112:3,3,17

120:9,15

137:10 138:6

139:17

142:13,18,25

144:24 145:3

148:14

150:22,23

153:8,17

158:25 161:6

163:6,13,14

163:15 164:9

165:16,19,25

168:12

169:10,11,16

169:25

171:24 173:8

173:23

174:25

176:11 183:5

184:6 195:23

195:25

200:12,18

standards

65:6 84:2,18

98:23,24

99:14 107:6

112:4 122:1

138:16

140:14 143:2

147:2 151:12

151:23

171:22

182:15

185:18

189:21

190:10 192:5

201:19 202:6

standards-c...

152:20

standpoint

131:20

Starr 1:24 3:23

3:23 12:4,11

12:20 13:10

13:16 14:14

14:21,23

19:4,4,19,25

21:24 22:1

22:22 23:3

24:1,13

25:15 26:1

30:6,13

31:15,20

32:8,14,19

32:22,25

35:7,25 36:2

36:4,25 37:7

37:12,17,21

38:3 40:13

40:17,22

42:5,10,19

42:24 44:1

44:17 53:10

54:1,7,11,14

58:24,24

60:8,21

105:4 119:23

120:10,16,19

136:17,23

171:12,25

172:3 173:4

173:17,19

174:5 187:4

187:6 189:4

190:2 191:5

192:2,14

199:11,21,25

200:21

start 3:7 6:22

14:15 47:5

55:14 69:10

90:23 106:6

106:9 108:23

109:25 110:4

110:4 113:4

113:20

124:24 125:1

125:2 159:14

176:22 177:6

180:5 185:17

188:25 194:3

started 46:21

113:10 115:2

200:13

starting 14:18

43:24 70:17

124:16

203:12,14

starts 17:19

203:21

Stas 1:25 4:4,4

64:25,25

66:12 68:21

107:4 110:24

111:12,24

201:22,22

State 172:22

172:23

190:25 191:3

State-by-State

173:15

stated 109:16

181:16,20

185:11

statement

49:6 57:1,2

66:25 68:14

69:15 109:3

109:14

110:11,22,25

111:23

132:21

140:18

160:23

201:16,23

statements

160:14

States 171:23

190:22

static 11:9

19:23 29:13

59:13,19

60:11,15,18

60:21,24
Meeting June 1, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

46

61:12 80:19

80:21,24

81:1 83:10

83:18 89:21

90:7,8 92:16

93:1 94:8,11

95:1,18,19

96:3 97:2

101:16

102:17

103:25

104:13,18

105:6

statics 90:13

stating 34:2

statute 158:10

178:5,5

193:25 194:5

194:12

statute's

193:19

statutory

181:17

stay 41:10

50:16,18

156:23

stays 136:4

steal 6:9 12:25

steam 33:22

34:12 35:6,7

step 102:19

137:9

step-up

175:18

stepping

189:11

steps 150:8

Steven 2:22

4:19

stick 7:5 24:16

185:15

still 8:23 9:16

11:16 29:13

35:6 37:14

37:19,25

40:3 45:3

53:4 54:13

56:5 64:18

93:23 101:6

103:11

104:17 116:6

116:9 133:2

134:14 151:3

167:12

196:13

197:10

198:12,17

stock 149:18

149:22,23

151:7,10,12

151:14

stocks 30:2

stop 45:7

105:13 114:5

114:7

stopped 84:17

stops 146:24

stores 59:18

story 103:14

179:20

straight 43:6

127:14 196:3

straightforw...

110:12,14

196:2

strategies

141:19

strategy

174:11 175:8

176:1,5

strawman

155:14

stray 190:17

stretch 5:3

strictly 159:6

159:25

187:18

stringency

97:7

stronger 63:16

strongly 76:12

141:12

struck 143:12

structure

88:22,25

166:24 184:3

structured

174:15

struggle 174:9

177:24

struggled

145:21

struggling

174:17

192:25

stuck 5:8 31:5

study 53:13

stuff 35:2

45:16 47:2

92:6 116:9

119:16 170:5

176:23 180:8

181:7 201:2

201:8

sub-bullet

97:18

subclass

150:13

subclasses

135:8

subgroups

159:2

subject 74:10

submission

152:19

165:20

submit 163:22

submitted

26:22 126:18

128:8 129:8

129:10 131:2

200:2

substantial

14:16 49:16

53:21 170:7

substantive

191:18

substitute

145:15,23

substitutes

146:7

subtleties

90:14

subtlety 68:13

subtract

160:15,24,25

198:1

succeed

175:22

successful

176:1

such 5:7 12:23

37:5 97:5

129:13 134:5

163:19 164:6

186:25

sufficient

114:12

suggest 25:4

45:23 105:5

113:3 134:5

138:15

suggested

65:21 96:20

96:23 112:19

196:11

suggesting

104:20 109:7

suggestion

117:19

123:25 124:1

176:9

suggestions

125:10

suitable 22:23

suite 141:18

sum 42:6

136:18 150:4

161:5

summarize

115:9 125:5

summary

71:10

summation

64:15

summer 7:8

supplemented

49:23

supplied 83:4

188:5

supply 61:4,10

61:14,18

support 52:8

89:25 92:14

93:9

supporting

52:2

suppose 117:4

supposed

10:9 56:7

111:10

128:22

144:20 179:3

192:16

sure 21:16,19

26:7 30:7

34:11 53:23

79:3 90:2

105:20,20

106:24 109:9

109:15,22

116:10 132:1

140:5,8

141:19 175:5

176:24 198:8

198:12,24

200:4 202:24

202:25

203:23

204:12
Meeting June 1, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

47

surprise

189:23

surprised

35:14 36:23

45:5 128:17

surprising

36:7

survey 47:8

131:6

suspect 55:9

swing 147:16

switch 36:5,8

41:7 145:17

200:25

switching

41:15

sync 109:15

synching

170:5

Syracuse 95:2

system 12:17

24:16,23,25

25:2,7,8,8,9

35:14 36:11

37:14

systems 60:2

T

table 3:8 26:10

39:4 72:1,23

94:1 107:20

108:1,18

115:10

116:20

133:16 135:7

151:13

179:14

180:13

182:23 183:2

183:4 196:24

table's 154:7

tables 3:8

71:13 134:7

tackling 90:19

take 5:17 6:16

24:15 45:8

45:20 46:13

48:16 59:25

63:23 66:5

67:6 73:10

79:4 80:8

89:14 102:7

105:16

107:19

109:14

117:22 118:8

118:15

126:20 132:1

140:3 147:24

149:16

150:13

153:23

154:20 157:4

157:5 160:9

175:20 186:6

193:1,2

203:8,18

taken 46:19

50:7 56:1

81:17 106:10

120:10

152:11

158:20

takes 133:14

142:25 166:1

172:5

taking 58:18

117:11

123:13

138:16 140:6

185:10

192:22 193:7

talk 6:18 10:20

21:4 63:2,12

63:18 66:23

71:16 86:4

86:21 105:22

110:7 144:5

167:2,4

talked 30:14

137:6,7

139:22

talking 6:22

7:2 15:15,18

19:20,25

22:6 34:6

35:7 44:18

44:19 49:25

55:6 63:5

64:6 69:1

78:3 87:3

92:19 96:21

98:4 108:24

120:12,14,16

125:23 148:1

179:19

183:15

189:24

tall 85:12,13

taller 85:7

tank 142:17

tanked 142:9

tape 111:13

task 56:1

tasked 180:11

tasks 29:16

team 5:20

161:10,11

teams' 161:12

tease 143:10

144:7

technical

140:2

technically

91:24 148:8

technologic...

178:7

technology

141:18

Ted 1:6 3:3,11

4:25 106:13

tee 86:13

teed 121:12

tell 12:11 17:5

50:4 54:1

103:14

130:15

131:13

133:20

139:20 149:3

150:14

193:14

telling 78:12

102:21

ten 53:18,19

54:3,3,6,7

145:20

tenants 147:11

tend 183:3

tends 136:3

term 43:18

68:7 98:4,21

terms 11:24,25

19:24 26:2

29:14,22

43:4 49:1,21

50:6 63:19

68:5 100:23

117:14

120:14 155:8

167:6,9

181:10,21,22

182:11 186:8

186:20 201:7

terrible 21:12

Terzigni 2:18

4:18 50:21

test 56:2,6,8

56:20 57:25

57:25 58:4

58:11,25

59:2,8,12,15

59:22,24

60:5,23 61:5

61:12,23

62:8,9 63:2,4

83:12 84:2

97:11 99:24

102:20 103:3

103:4 104:23

tested 61:11

84:4 96:4

102:18 103:1

testing 61:7

105:2 165:21

tests 97:2

Texas 172:24

textbook

145:1

than 6:17

11:12 18:23

18:23,24

19:8,15 21:5

24:11 25:23

31:4 35:3,22

38:21 39:19

44:19 46:4,5

51:9 53:21

58:17 60:11

63:17 72:7

73:5 74:21

76:12 81:4

94:7 96:4

98:18 104:8

105:19 106:7

111:22

117:21 121:5

121:21

122:13

130:11,24

131:1,7

132:2 133:25

140:7 145:24

146:15,17

147:3 148:12

148:16

159:10

168:11,14,15

173:8 178:18

187:6 188:1
Meeting June 1, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

48

188:14 190:1

192:8 195:8

196:23

197:18

thank 3:3 4:20

4:25 14:24

18:14,21

19:3 27:2

44:8,8,15

46:14,18

49:13 55:3

64:7 67:5,5

74:16 78:21

82:20 84:6

90:18 94:23

95:8 106:9

107:9,14

108:13,14

136:15

143:22

160:18

171:11 193:6

204:17

Thanks 10:6

105:14,24

112:24

158:19

Tharp 2:2 3:20

3:20 47:4,4

99:1,11

114:15,15,21

122:20

123:11 168:7

168:7,21

188:3,3

199:6

themselves

6:10 160:12

162:13

theoretically

55:6

theory 147:20

171:14,16

173:4 189:6

thereabouts

143:2

thereby 72:17

193:25

therefore

51:12 65:8

112:6 152:25

thing 9:11

27:12,15

30:16 38:9

39:3 40:24

41:20 64:17

82:4 83:6

89:14,19

96:1,15

97:16 100:6

101:10

109:18 110:7

124:18

128:21

134:24

145:19 147:7

147:21

157:25

167:16

170:14

193:18,23

197:5

things 10:11

11:25 27:3

30:5 36:20

40:8 41:18

47:5 51:16

62:19 63:9

86:6 88:2,4

89:16 94:18

105:6,22

111:1,2

121:25 143:8

156:1 164:6

169:21

170:10

183:18

191:17

think 5:2,3,14

5:21 6:9,12

6:14 7:1

10:18,18

13:6 18:13

19:2,16

21:12 24:13

24:18 25:4

25:10,17,17

25:21,23

26:4 27:12

28:20 31:15

31:16 35:2

35:13,14,23

35:23 36:10

38:4,4 41:19

44:5 47:1,11

47:18 49:19

49:24 50:2,9

52:21 55:6,9

55:10,22

56:4,15

58:15,25

59:4,6,7 60:3

61:24 62:7

62:23,25

63:16 64:1,3

64:10,22

65:10 66:14

66:22 68:13

68:21 69:6

69:14,21

78:24 79:12

83:14,24

84:9,12

85:24,25

86:5,11,12

86:25 87:25

89:11 90:20

90:22,24

93:12 94:17

94:19,20

95:22 96:5,7

96:15,18,21

104:15,20,22

104:25

105:11,21

106:4 107:21

107:23

108:16,25

109:25

110:13

111:16 112:8

113:2,12,15

114:5,23

115:20 116:8

118:13,18,18

121:11

122:12,13,15

124:12,18,25

125:3,4,24

126:24 129:2

129:3 131:18

131:19 133:3

133:10,23,24

133:24 134:2

134:8,10,18

135:13 137:5

137:12,25

138:1,5

139:18

141:21 144:6

144:21,21

145:16,20

146:3,4

147:2,6,7,7

147:21,23

148:4 149:5

149:21

152:12,13

153:20 157:1

157:23 159:7

159:9 165:4

166:14,20,20

167:1 168:2

168:5 169:5

169:13,13

170:9 172:4

172:22

173:14,23

174:8 175:20

177:16,24

178:13,14,16

178:17,25

179:1,6,7

181:2 182:3

184:13

185:23

186:23

187:13,15,24

188:9,11

189:2,16,17

190:4,11,13

190:21,22,24

191:9,17

192:2,5,14

195:1 196:7

196:8,21,25

197:1,2,4

200:22 201:6

201:22 202:8

203:21 204:4

thinking 12:21

31:21 37:21

91:22 97:19

104:6 107:20

128:14

147:17 155:7

191:3,3

third 15:21

16:7 21:16

23:7,16

36:12 42:22

42:22 94:7

101:15 160:8

183:4

thought 9:9

26:2 36:24

36:25 58:6

59:15 83:10

87:3 90:25

91:18,19
Meeting June 1, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

49

109:20

110:11

128:18,19

132:21 160:7

173:24 177:2

thoughts 71:2

90:13 108:19

108:20

148:22

thousand

120:11

thread 116:23

116:24

three 15:17,17

20:11 38:11

43:21 79:3

83:23 84:14

86:1 110:19

122:13,14,23

126:8 130:11

131:1,7

132:2 135:9

140:7 154:21

169:19

170:20,22

171:8 172:5

172:8 189:7

190:22

192:17

194:22

195:13

199:14,16

three-and-a-...

38:12

three-stage

192:14,16

three-tier

188:18

threshold

178:11

thresholds

181:17

throw 75:20

106:1

Thumbs 7:11

thunder 6:9

13:1

Thursday

159:8 185:14

tied 139:13

tier 200:23

tiered 175:8

tiering 166:4,5

tight 101:14

time 6:7 10:20

14:20 17:22

23:2,21

25:16 28:5

29:8,13

30:14 34:14

43:3 52:10

52:15 64:9

64:11 70:23

74:8 75:9,11

86:5 97:11

109:24 110:2

114:5,8,11

114:11,13,14

115:2 121:12

121:13

124:21 126:8

128:9 131:23

135:18 137:6

137:11,23

138:1 139:1

139:22

142:20

144:11

152:15,16,23

152:24 153:5

157:8 159:12

167:13 169:1

169:25

170:17

172:15

189:25 198:1

198:11

203:15,16

time-depend...

149:17

timeline

152:15

times 16:8

41:1,3,8,10

92:4 140:12

168:5 197:19

201:24

timing 113:2

Title 27:24

173:1

to-do 196:18

today 27:14

63:11 75:8

85:21 89:24

92:15 96:4

105:9,19

106:21

116:20

123:17

134:14 157:2

159:5,16

162:20 164:2

174:19

175:13

177:11

178:17

182:16

193:21 194:2

195:14

201:15 202:3

202:19

together 79:22

124:14

150:15

155:17 157:9

170:4 188:25

198:9,10

203:15

told 187:18

194:1

tomorrow

63:11 107:2

108:25 109:4

109:8 110:1

113:2,21

114:3,5,11

114:20

116:21 140:8

155:5 194:3

203:12 204:7

204:15

ton 11:4 23:12

30:18 36:16

42:11 47:8,9

50:3 55:13

56:11,16

58:15

tonight 106:24

107:15 108:6

tons 11:5,5,15

12:2 14:5

16:6 20:22

20:24,24

23:21 28:20

33:21,23

35:10,21

36:17 37:4

38:9 43:1

44:21 45:11

53:14,14

85:18 116:14

118:25

took 31:24

32:9 71:21

75:12 131:22

138:6,8,9,10

143:2 164:18

187:18 201:2

tool 67:15

154:18

tooling 195:4

tools 69:16

top 72:23

75:23 76:19

79:14 81:11

top-down 55:7

159:25

topic 10:9 19:2

78:23 96:20

125:3 140:18

Toro 2:15 4:18

115:13 126:2

toss 204:11

total 9:3 13:13

55:23 126:14

126:21

132:24

133:25

134:18

135:20

149:13 150:2

151:5,13

152:2 155:16

156:24

168:15 169:7

196:22

totally 101:7

totals 151:20

153:11

touch 162:17

197:7

tour 195:2

toward 89:2,7

towards 28:11

56:3 77:24

175:19

189:22

trademark

193:15

trajectory

141:16

Trane 4:1,12

33:18 34:3

36:15 55:5

61:3 154:25

167:14

transcribe

205:4

TRANSCRIB...

2:25
Meeting June 1, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

50

transcript

66:16,17

106:21,25

107:8 113:10

198:17,23

205:5

transcripts

66:18

transition

45:24

translates

19:24

transposition

21:17

trash 204:10

treat 149:7

tremendous

11:19

trend 28:4

70:21 141:1

141:9 148:13

149:3 152:21

153:5

trends 201:11

trial 8:24 9:1

tried 194:25

triggered

170:23

triggering

131:7

trillion 177:19

182:24 183:7

triple 168:4

triple-counti...

183:24

trouble 142:12

true 24:14

29:21 173:18

173:18

178:11

189:18 205:5

truly 35:24

36:21

try 5:11 29:17

67:3,7 82:15

111:16 117:3

158:18

172:14 179:8

179:16

182:18

197:11

trying 12:5

35:19 66:19

66:20 92:14

96:20 97:17

103:15,20

104:23

107:14

109:24 111:1

119:23

125:20 127:4

127:24

154:17 177:1

179:24 182:9

182:18

TS 9:17

TSL 9:19 58:16

133:11,21

154:3 157:17

158:6,7

164:25

167:16

171:12,14

172:11 173:5

173:8,13

185:18

187:16

188:13 189:6

189:10,12

191:7,13

TSL-1 56:12

TSL-2 56:12

TSLs 9:17

47:17 133:3

148:20

153:21,23

155:15 156:2

turn 4:24 5:19

6:18 19:23

46:21 89:12

121:20

turning 140:17

tweaks 107:24

twice 203:11

two 7:14 14:5

22:10 26:25

27:17 30:21

31:13 38:23

40:8,10

63:11 75:4

76:10 79:19

79:19 80:1

82:17 84:14

85:25 94:21

95:2 99:12

103:24

104:12

115:11

126:10 131:9

131:10,11,11

133:22,25

138:16 143:5

150:9 154:20

162:16 163:1

169:19,23,24

170:2 177:18

179:17

182:21,21

190:21 195:7

195:11 196:5

202:15,24

two-and-a-h...

42:4 188:13

two-stage

39:13

two-tenths

12:23 83:14

83:18 104:17

117:18,21

122:2

type 9:14 21:7

21:9 22:9,13

24:7,9 40:10

40:11 43:20

87:5 92:23

95:6 107:12

110:19 111:4

145:4 150:15

167:7 178:22

190:15

types 34:23

88:11 102:8

149:8 152:4

typical 97:13

100:7

typically 48:11

49:3 80:4,17

80:23 81:2,4

81:19 82:10

82:11,12

83:14 86:17

89:24 99:8

152:23

159:10

169:19

196:13

typo 14:19,21

U

Uber 46:6

Uh-huh 74:16

UL 99:10,22,23

UL1995 99:1

99:12,18,24

UL60335 99:12

ultimately 26:4

un-muted 4:21

unanimous

123:21

uncertainty

128:14 138:1

193:7

unclear 97:25

uncomforta...

129:4

uncommon

48:16

underestima...

168:6

underlying

52:13

understand

18:2 22:8

27:21 34:11

36:15 53:1,3

66:21 75:18

75:21 92:15

109:20

110:13,17

119:24 130:5

137:4,5

158:13,14

162:8 167:16

173:24 174:8

179:2 180:10

189:14

191:25

195:24 196:1

196:4 197:9

197:19

199:12,14,17

200:23 201:1

202:21,21

understandi...

10:1 26:8

52:13 71:3

89:7 109:16

121:4 123:23

128:4 136:7

159:12

174:14 185:3

191:12 199:1

201:6,17

202:13,18,18

understated

197:5,11,13

198:14

understood

121:13

undertake
Meeting June 1, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

51

193:24

undertaking

166:17

Undoubtedly

142:15

unexpected

190:2

Unfortunately

120:22

unique 200:13

uniqueness

164:3

unit 7:21 8:11

13:14 19:21

20:15 21:7,8

22:8 23:1

24:20 31:9

32:10 33:15

35:11 38:24

39:12,17,23

41:1,7,16

53:16 57:18

60:17,24

72:21,22

73:20,20

74:2 80:13

81:13 83:8

85:18 87:12

88:7 91:20

91:23 92:10

92:24 93:5,6

93:20,23

95:16 98:4,6

100:4,7,14

100:15,16

101:6,9

117:11 120:5

121:5 149:20

149:20,24

150:11 151:6

153:16 187:1

199:22

unitary 1:1 8:6

140:23 170:4

units 7:24 11:4

13:22,24

15:21 16:15

16:16 20:17

20:20 21:2

23:11,14,25

24:9,10

25:22 27:14

28:2,22,23

30:22,22,24

34:17 37:8

38:19 40:2

40:12 43:20

47:21 49:8

49:10,17

59:17,25

60:13 61:8

63:4 73:25

74:19,25

80:3,10 85:8

85:8 86:14

87:10 89:24

90:12 91:2

92:2,18

93:16,18

94:5,9 95:2

95:10 96:25

101:18 115:3

116:16 117:6

120:25 121:1

125:11,13,23

127:14,14,15

127:19

145:15 151:3

153:2 198:19

198:25 199:2

199:5,16,22

unknown

171:10

unless 6:19

44:21 116:16

194:11

unnoticed

116:10

untangle

142:19

unusual

144:14

update 103:3

108:4

updated 8:11

152:19

updates 7:15

10:22 15:17

updating 8:3

14:8 156:8

upfront 186:12

upon 7:13 11:2

17:12,25

21:2 22:24

27:11 30:8

33:10,15

56:7 107:16

109:11

162:17 164:2

190:6

upper-bound

163:25

182:22

ups 145:11

upstream

153:9 159:20

uptick 147:19

usage 25:24

28:9 59:21

USC 65:25

112:23

201:17

use 5:24 10:17

10:18,22,23

11:24 13:13

15:5 16:2

19:23 21:9

22:2 25:12

25:18,22

30:1 33:10

37:19 38:22

40:1,4,15

44:14 46:6

46:10 48:12

48:16 56:4,7

57:8,9 58:2

59:3,6,9 60:1

60:12 64:5

65:4,20

67:15 70:21

72:12 73:23

76:22,23

84:2 86:21

95:4 98:3

99:2,4,6,6,9

99:13 109:24

112:3,18

117:3 120:12

127:4 132:22

140:13,14

149:24 150:6

150:12,21

151:16

152:17 163:5

164:13 175:7

182:18 195:9

useful 90:23

177:2

users 87:18

uses 87:21

117:5

usually 6:22

66:19 204:11

utility 54:24

55:2 137:20

V

VAC 21:17

vacancy

146:21,23,24

147:15

valid 58:21

validation

195:13

valuable

188:20

value 8:8

29:15 48:14

50:6 105:3

150:17

152:18

156:22

186:20 187:3

values 14:11

17:14,15

48:10 50:1,5

78:7,14

115:4,15

125:7 154:22

156:24

162:13,15

168:11,17

186:25 189:9

variability

149:25

variable 16:15

16:21 17:2

20:17,20

22:24 23:10

23:13,17,22

23:24 27:9

28:22,23

30:4 39:7,10

137:21

Variables

58:20

variation

137:18

variety 88:5

various 30:4

58:22 72:22

117:15

155:25

188:10

VAV 22:6,7,18

23:2,3,4,7

24:15,16,20

24:21,25

25:8,13,22

26:17 28:3,8
Meeting June 1, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

52

35:15,15

36:6,9,11,22

37:14 42:2,8

42:13 57:16

126:25

verify 188:16

version 80:4

100:23 145:3

153:6

versus 19:6

23:11 28:1

36:17 47:24

63:1 86:22

121:9 149:1

173:16

vertical 80:2

81:7 83:22

85:9,18

86:15 87:4

88:19 91:8

91:14,15,18

91:20,23,25

92:1,10 93:5

93:6,15,23

94:4 102:5,6

102:8

vertically 81:9

vertically-co...

82:25

verticals 91:2

102:2

via 2:8,9,10,11

2:12,13,14

2:15,16,17

2:18,19,20

2:21,22

view 5:4 19:5

54:25 107:18

203:20

viewpoints

139:19

vintage 149:23

149:24 151:8

151:14,15

virtually 40:8

visualization

100:19

voice 34:4

volume 16:15

16:15,16,21

16:21,21

17:1,2 20:15

20:17,20

21:2,8 22:6

22:20,24

23:10,11,11

23:13,13,17

23:22,24,25

24:16,22

25:1,2,9 27:7

27:10,25

28:2,8,12,22

28:23,23

30:4 35:13

35:16 36:6

36:19 37:5

37:19,25

39:7,8,10,14

39:15,17,23

40:10 51:8

52:7 88:3

89:6 129:14

130:11,16,19

130:20

131:24,24

132:17,24,24

174:25 175:4

175:7

volume/vari...

39:15

volumes 49:2

133:14 162:6

200:25

voluntold

105:16

vote 7:11

67:24

VRF 59:25

W

wait 70:5

123:9

waiting 64:21

107:12

walk 73:14

80:6 161:17

185:16

walked 58:6

wall 92:17,23

203:5

walls 69:8

want 7:10 15:1

17:21 24:2

33:17,19

34:7,11 35:3

35:5 41:6,20

52:11 56:19

63:9 66:8

69:25 70:1

71:5 78:24

79:4 88:7

89:17 90:16

102:9 103:16

104:5 105:13

109:10,13,18

116:4 122:3

122:19,21

123:16

124:22 140:2

141:22

151:24 154:9

154:18 156:5

157:8 159:11

164:24 167:8

167:15 175:5

179:2,21

185:15,18

188:23 189:1

196:1 200:2

wanted 18:18

21:14,16

29:25 57:1

86:3 89:17

106:18 108:3

115:9 116:9

117:3 127:1

127:5 154:20

187:20

wants 6:19

107:25

warehouse

88:20

warm 170:3

183:22 184:1

198:2

warming

182:11

wash 146:9

washers 107:7

112:16

Washington

7:9 53:15

wasn't 18:19

21:19 31:15

49:6 109:3

139:17

154:25

waste 178:25

water 33:22

34:12 35:6,8

water-cooled

83:4

wattage 71:13

115:14

116:12,24

wattages

118:11

way 17:23

20:25 25:13

36:21,22

38:7 44:5,10

51:20 55:10

58:7,10,10

68:12 69:21

80:19 87:17

96:4 100:7

100:14 102:6

104:4 113:7

113:8 116:4

117:17,18

118:9 124:6

124:9 125:21

134:19 136:3

143:11

144:24

145:14,22

164:20 167:2

173:24 174:1

174:14

178:25,25

180:3,14

190:20,24

191:4 194:8

197:14

199:17

204:11

ways 195:7,20

we'd 21:7,7

51:7

we're 5:2,3,4,7

5:11,15,21

6:3,21 15:19

17:2 19:1,25

22:17,25

27:6,9 28:10

31:5 34:23

36:22 44:13

44:18,19

45:24 47:1

49:9,25 50:2

50:6 51:9

53:11,16

56:8 58:18

62:8,23

64:21 66:19

66:20,24

68:25 70:23

72:9 75:7

77:23,25

78:3 84:15
Meeting June 1, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

53

85:21,21

87:3,3 89:2

91:11 93:20

95:12 97:7

97:16 104:24

105:8,11

107:18

108:10

109:15,25

111:18 114:8

116:15 124:7

125:23 127:7

127:24

131:22 133:8

133:11

134:13,14

139:25 140:8

148:20

154:17

155:17,22

156:8 159:5

160:20 163:4

166:11

167:10

170:10 177:1

177:8 178:17

179:7,14,16

179:19 180:8

181:5,6,6

182:3,3,17

183:25

185:25

189:24

193:21,22,24

194:2,13

195:1,9

196:13

197:11,15

198:14

203:10,12,13

203:14

we've 6:3 9:14

37:9 39:24

49:21 51:24

52:9 55:17

56:4 62:17

62:19,20

63:5 66:19

67:16 73:11

98:21,21

107:11,17

108:17

122:12 124:9

126:5 146:14

155:19,19

157:13 159:8

159:16

161:15

163:25 164:6

170:20

176:10

178:18

180:18,18

188:18

198:17 199:7

weather 5:9

98:18

weatherized

97:23 98:2,8

98:13,25

webinar 2:8,9

2:10,11,12

2:13,14,15

2:16,17,18

2:19,20,21

2:22 3:10

4:15,21

website 43:24

47:23

Wednesday

6:6 29:11

64:4 126:7

127:22 159:7

185:14

weeds 144:19

week 8:15,21

9:3 11:1,12

12:6 15:25

38:21 43:14

44:2,25 45:2

115:8,8

week's 12:9

weekend

61:16,17,17

weeks 9:15

62:20 66:19

75:4 107:1

107:10

161:16

190:21

weighted 16:3

16:7,9 17:14

54:17 76:12

76:18 152:6

152:7

weighting

23:19 53:5

Welcome 5:1

well-taken

96:7

went 13:14

23:18 31:21

45:2 58:6

62:14,15

74:24 75:10

134:4,8

136:8 148:4

165:19

Westphalen

2:3 5:8 64:10

70:11,11,17

73:16 74:15

74:17,22,25

75:5,12,25

76:3,5 78:13

78:17,22

79:8 90:10

90:22 91:3

91:13 92:21

93:3,11,14

94:15 95:7,9

96:15,18

98:6 99:15

99:25 100:10

101:3,15

102:9 103:12

104:6 105:11

105:20,23

115:1 116:11

117:2 118:10

118:15,22

119:4,19

120:5,14,18

120:22 122:9

122:15,24

123:1,4,9,14

123:20 124:5

124:20 125:2

125:9,24

126:1 198:24

199:10

what’s 94:21

whenever 4:22

12:6 166:22

169:11

where 5:19

10:13 13:5

15:24 18:13

25:12 28:5,9

30:25 31:7

40:5 43:11

43:16 44:12

47:12,13

49:11 59:18

63:22 64:16

68:23 74:19

76:8,13 77:7

84:11 87:15

87:20 88:2,7

88:16,20,22

89:9,9,11

96:4,11

108:5,12

117:24 119:1

129:12,14

130:15

131:12,19,24

132:16

144:12

149:13

153:21 154:9

155:9 156:3

156:23

160:14

163:11

171:15

172:24

173:11 176:3

176:21 177:5

177:25 180:6

180:13,20

182:17 183:3

184:24

185:17

187:15 190:3

190:22

191:14 192:5

199:8 200:6

200:7,25

201:1,7

203:21

wherever

81:18

whether 18:19

25:18 57:19

73:11 77:20

87:22 91:16

97:14 118:4

119:15 131:3

132:3 133:5

139:19

177:13

Whitwell 2:4

4:2,2 7:11

10:2,2 18:16

25:20,20

27:12,21,23

33:1,4 48:9

48:22 49:11

49:13 50:23
Meeting June 1, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

54

50:23 51:23

52:6 53:1,3,7

53:24 57:12

58:9 73:12

75:17 76:2,4

79:3,7,10,13

79:17,20,21

80:9 82:8,12

82:18,21

84:4,7,12

85:3,20 86:2

86:8,16

87:14,19,25

88:24 89:15

90:5,16 91:5

91:24 92:8

93:1,12

94:19 95:21

96:1 98:3,10

98:13 99:22

100:9,24

101:4,21

102:13,23,25

103:6,19,21

103:24 104:3

104:11 105:8

105:17,21,24

106:2 117:10

118:2,13,17

118:23 119:1

119:8,12,22

121:16,22,22

122:12

123:25

124:12,25

127:12,12,20

129:16

130:10,15

165:24,24

166:14,20

170:16,22

171:11,21

172:1,13

173:1 174:3

174:21 175:3

175:23,25

180:17,25

183:10,18

190:11

192:24 193:1

193:2 196:1

201:12

whole 41:17

52:18 53:2

60:21 64:10

84:13 103:14

136:2 169:15

169:17 172:6

177:21

179:20

195:18

whose 105:2

116:16

wide 59:20

wider 85:6,10

width 81:20

102:4

wiggles

139:15

wild 189:8

willing 102:13

163:23

Wilson 2:16

4:18

winners 44:10

Winningham

2:5 3:21,21

28:24 55:21

58:13 132:15

135:23

144:16

175:16

189:16

190:13

196:19 197:3

197:9 200:5

201:14

wish 12:10

45:15 49:2

within 28:12

32:4 43:9

86:19 88:6,6

91:7 188:11

190:14

won't 48:6

50:13 114:13

147:22

wonder 45:17

104:7

wondering

42:14 108:3

108:22 109:2

110:18

114:10

138:18

Woodford

2:20 4:19

word 7:8 21:22

107:5

wording

103:16

words 16:5

19:9 20:21

35:15 42:10

114:13 164:7

171:17

work 5:7 24:23

25:2 55:25

56:7 59:14

59:19 60:10

60:14 63:18

83:9 93:10

102:13,19

103:1 113:10

124:11 134:3

136:4 140:21

153:23

161:10,12

162:23

176:20 179:8

180:13

182:10

184:21

197:17

worked 78:25

working 1:1

4:20 6:3 56:8

62:19 65:1

65:11,19

67:25 68:4,5

91:7 95:23

97:8 108:4

108:15

111:24

112:10,17

115:20

139:25 159:8

160:25

167:12

190:18

196:13

197:11

works 124:12

159:13

204:13

worry 134:20

worse 148:13

worth 90:15

96:21

Worther 2:14

4:17

worthwhile

176:8

wouldn’t 48:18

wrangling

133:11

wrap 194:20

wrap-up

157:14

wrinkle 187:22

write 61:5

102:20

111:17

writing 203:4

written 98:22

104:4 164:22

177:17

194:12,21

wrong 67:23

144:19

202:13

X

X 44:12,12

117:5 193:14

Xing 2:6 4:13

Xu 2:6 4:13,13

Y

Y 193:14

yeah 10:3

12:10,20,25

13:13,20

15:1 19:16

19:19,25

22:11 24:1

26:1,13

27:12,19

28:14,21

30:11,16

32:17 33:1,3

33:9 34:1,14

36:2,25

37:21 42:10

44:9 45:19

49:2,5,19

51:23 52:22

53:3 54:13

62:12 66:18

74:22 75:5

75:12,25

76:2,4,4

78:13,15

79:15 84:12

90:5,10,18

91:3 93:1,12

94:19 95:7

96:1,13,15

99:20,22

100:24 101:4
Meeting June 1, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

55

101:21 102:7

103:4,6,19

104:4 106:2

106:20

118:10,10,13

118:22,22

119:12

120:18,22

122:16 123:1

123:4 124:20

125:9 126:13

128:6,7

129:1,9

132:10

134:16,17

136:1 137:4

138:25 139:4

139:18,25

140:16 142:7

148:10 149:5

154:17 155:7

157:13

163:23

166:10,14,18

169:18

170:13

171:18 173:1

173:20

178:14

179:13

183:10

190:13,19

191:4,5

193:15 197:4

197:15 198:8

198:24

202:14 204:4

year 78:18,18

138:9 141:24

143:3,3,9

149:19,22

150:1,3,3,23

151:2,13

153:15 173:5

173:22

years 43:21

51:17,18

52:18,24

53:17 145:20

161:5 170:2

170:20,22

171:8 172:5

172:8 178:9

178:19

187:21 189:7

yep 79:20 84:7

102:9 104:5

yeses 69:20

yet 139:24

180:20

184:24

196:17

York 172:24

Z

Z 193:15

Zendah 2:7 4:3

4:3 173:14

173:14

190:20,21

zero 11:13

12:13 20:14

28:19,19

53:18 54:3

80:19 83:15

92:16 93:1

129:19

130:13 134:8

187:17

zeroed 129:24

130:3

0

0 16:10 17:23

26:11 77:1

09 143:17,18

1

1 1:3 9:16,17

12:14 18:23

20:20,23

22:4,20 23:1

26:10 32:1

35:3,4 39:5

39:14,16,18

39:22 40:12

40:14 58:16

61:7,12 77:2

78:1 80:20

136:8 144:5

154:4,4

156:2 167:16

171:12,14,22

172:11 173:5

173:8 177:20

185:18,19

186:6 187:16

189:6 191:7

1-inch 95:12

95:15

1,000 11:3

15:25 16:5,9

17:23 197:2

1,085 197:3,18

1,750 11:4

16:1

1.0 95:3

1.2 199:8,9

1.3 183:8

1.4 182:24

1/1/16 121:9

190:25

1/1/2016

172:22

1:00 46:2

1:30 106:3

10 44:19 52:18

52:24 53:14

53:14 54:14

128:15 133:5

143:17,18

145:24

157:10

10-ton 172:18

10-year 52:23

10.05 74:3

10.6 73:4,20

10.9 74:3

10:37 46:12

10:40 46:1

10:42 45:18,19

10:50 46:16,16

100 13:23 25:1

76:18

11 145:25

148:6 182:4

11(8) 201:18

11.2 20:24

31:4

11.4 26:11

30:18 31:4

31:17

11.41 32:15

11.7 73:5,21

11:00 46:17,18

12 36:12 70:16

12.1 74:4

12.5 199:21

12.7 31:5

165:6,21

12.9 30:18,18

31:4,17

32:14,16,20

32:24

12:00 46:3

64:13

12:30 106:4

13 54:2 166:22

13,000 53:19

54:11

13.8 74:4

14 54:2 85:21

14-ton 84:19

14,000 53:17

14.0 31:12,13

32:21

14.5 31:13

14.8 31:12

14.9 14:6,12

15 11:5 16:1

20:24 28:16

28:20 35:23

42:25 44:22

45:14 46:13

54:14 71:16

85:22 116:14

118:1,2,3,7

119:7,11,12

119:17

123:18 126:3

126:23,24

133:5 167:17

167:18

199:14

15-ton 14:4,15

43:22 49:10

49:17 51:1

115:17 199:2

15-tons 12:3

15.5 14:12

15.6 14:7,12

15th 66:20

16 49:18

16,000 138:24

16.9 20:23

17 28:20 52:3

54:17

18 53:7 125:20

18-year 52:4

18,000 11:17

18,123 13:15

18,462 13:15

19 36:11 54:5

54:6,7 191:3

19.2 28:15

42:17

1978 140:24

1995 143:2

1999 128:8,11

128:18
Meeting June 1, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

56

1E-245 113:23

114:1 203:13

1st 6:4 115:12

115:12 173:5

2

2 9:16,17 11:9

18:23 26:16

35:4 40:13

58:16 73:7

73:22 76:17

94:11 100:5

101:16

102:17

103:10,11

104:10

125:20,20

136:8 156:2

188:13

189:10,12

2-40 99:12

2,000 47:9

197:2

2,500 47:8

2.5 11:3,13,22

12:14 17:23

36:10 41:22

2.7 186:20,21

2:00 106:3,4,6

106:9,12

20 33:23 35:9

36:16,17,18

37:4 46:13

51:18 53:19

77:2 85:21

133:7,8,9

146:15,17

148:6

20-ish 166:12

20-plus 51:17

54:4,12

20-ton 37:7,13

84:20

20,000 138:24

20.6 165:2

2000 128:12

2003 16:25

23:6 24:3

2004 128:10

2005 138:8

2008 139:16

141:25

2009 128:12

141:25

146:14

2010 27:23,23

138:6,23

139:17

141:25 142:3

142:13 143:3

143:16

146:14

2011 27:18

28:1,18,20

126:21,24

127:23 138:8

143:16

2013 140:24

194:7

2014 27:18,20

28:1,17 29:1

126:21

127:23

166:22

2015 1:3

153:18

205:12

2016 115:12

115:12

171:18,23

173:6,25

187:14 189:6

191:6

2019 153:17

171:14,19

172:10 173:7

189:7,9,12

2019's 173:13

2048 151:1

210/240 84:5

21st 140:22

22 53:8,23

170:6

22-year 52:1

22.6 8:8

226 165:1,23

166:11

23 7:24 23:2

32:14

23.3 22:5

31:20

24 27:24 173:1

240,000 83:3

84:10

240,760 35:9

25 25:1 36:16

36:17,18

37:4 76:5

25-ton 75:15

75:18

26 54:2

26-year 8:7

26,000 53:18

26.7 157:18

27-ton 75:15

76:5,6

28 54:2 90:23

28,000 53:18

28.3 157:18

29.2 22:5

32:17

3

3 9:17 11:3

13:4,5,21,24

15:5,23

17:19,24

18:23,24

38:19,20

41:23 42:4

43:13 45:2

49:9,16

60:15,22

61:2,4,20

77:12 103:17

134:9 150:7

153:13

156:16,16

157:17

164:25

168:24,25

169:2 175:10

188:1

3- 19:25 20:1

156:10

3-percent

157:16

3.5s 154:9

3:00 114:5

3:24 158:18

3:45 158:19

30 11:5 13:2,6

14:5 16:1,8

20:24 28:16

28:20 33:21

35:21 36:17

36:21 37:23

44:19,21

45:14 49:10

94:25 118:25

123:21

126:23 161:5

178:18

199:15

30-odd 178:9

30-ton 49:18

70:18 71:18

76:14 115:19

116:3,15

118:4,8,20

119:16,18

120:4 122:10

122:22

124:15

125:11,13

198:19 199:4

30-year 150:22

186:22

308 17:17

31 77:1,5

90:21

32 14:17

33 16:8 94:7

120:11

333 16:9 17:17

34 101:19,21

101:23,24

102:3,4

34.6 28:15

42:18

340/360 84:5

35 76:14

36 81:4,19

82:24,25

94:6

39 14:18 22:5

167:20,21

3rd 205:12

4

4 9:17 14:6,7

14:11,12

43:12 44:23

45:1,6 69:20

69:20,20

74:6 76:1

156:17,19

157:20 169:2

4,000 11:5

16:1

40 13:6 44:19

49:9 134:8

40-ton 76:16

400 19:25 20:1

40:19

42 65:25

112:23

201:17

43 42:6 49:12

49:12
Meeting June 1, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

57

44 47:6

45 13:18 51:1

76:16

46 47:6

48 55:13

49 126:12,13

136:25

5

5 9:17,19

12:14 14:6,7

14:12 17:24

38:20 41:23

42:3 44:23

45:2,6 53:14

53:14 75:22

76:3 77:8

128:15

156:20

157:20 158:6

158:7

50 13:7 37:22

37:22 44:19

50-ton 76:19

500 40:20

51 26:11

52 137:2

55 76:19

57 136:18

6

6 9:3 23:12,21

23:23 28:15

39:11 42:19

6-ton 166:16

60 13:7 76:19

149:11

61 22:3

62 140:22

6295(p)(4)

65:25 112:23

201:25

63 33:23 35:10

36:17,21

201:17

63-ton 166:16

69.2 22:4

7

7 9:3,17 150:7

153:13

7-percent

156:21

7.6 136:13

7:00 110:9

70 13:5,7,25

15:24

74 167:16

75 73:3

76 7:23

76-23 10:3

8

8 187:2

8-foot 85:12

8-ton 84:15

8:00 109:25

110:9 114:3

80 7:22,24 9:6

9:13 13:25

34:17 77:4,6

144:13,17

81 7:18,24

8:17 9:7

82 8:14

9

9.3 20:21

9:00 113:4,18

113:21 114:3

203:13,14

204:17

90 85:12

90.1 27:23

37:22 115:11

120:9 121:9

122:1 168:11

169:2,3

172:15

187:13

189:21

191:18,19

192:4,13,16

90.1's 171:21

192:21

90.1-2013

171:13,22

173:2 190:23

90.1-2016

189:10

90s 138:13

147:13

92 138:9,11

144:1 176:4

181:14

93 144:1

94 39:17 40:10

95 60:14

143:24 176:4

181:15

96 138:10

97 176:4