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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 1 ASRAC COMMERCIAL UNITARY AIR CONDITIONERS WORKING GROUP MEETING JUNE 1, 2015 A P P E A R A N C E S Ashley Armstrong Ted Bantle James Battaglia Katie Coughlin John Cymbalsky Andrew deLaski Paul Doppel Chandara Gollapudi Jill Hootman Marshall Hunt John Hurst Chris Lau Michael McCabe Charlie McCrudden Karen Meyers Nick Mislak Javier Ramirez Greg Rosenquist Harvey Sachs Louis Starr Eric Stas

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 2 1 A P P E A R A N C E S (continued) 2 Rusty Tharp 3 Detlef Westphalen 4 Bob Whitwell 5 Dave Winningham 6 Xing Xu 7 Sami Zendah 8 Adam Darlington (via Webinar) 9 Armen Hower (via Webinar) 10 David Ransom (via Webinar) 11 Diane Jacobs (via Webinar) 12 Alcia Gallowish (via Webinar) 13 Eilen Connolly (via Webinar) 14 Jeff Worther (via Webinar) 15 Jim del Toro (via Webinar) 16 Linda Wilson (via Webinar) 17 Long Huang (via Webinar) 18 Mark Terzigni (via Webinar) 19 Michael Shows (via Webinar) 20 Michael Woodford (via Webinar) 21 Mike Ray (via Webinar) 22 Steven Maddox (via Webinar) 23 24 25 AUDIO TRANSCRIBED BY KYLIE S. SHEPHERD

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 3 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 MR. BANTLE: Okay. Good morning, everybody. 3 Ted Bantle from FMCS. Thank you, everybody, for joining 4 us. 5 We are at quorum. We'll go through attendance 6 first, and then we can get right into the material here. 7 So again, to start us off, we'll do attendance from the 8 main table. We'll do the side tables, and then the back 9 of the room, and then Andrew can bring in -- list off the 10 individuals on the webinar. 11 So Ted Bantle with FMCS. 12 MR. RAMIREZ: Javier Ramirez with FMCS. 13 MR. deLASKI: Andrew deLaski, Appliance 14 Standard Awareness Project. 15 MR. McCRUDDEN: Charlie McCrudden, Air 16 Conditioning Contractors of America. 17 MR. MISLAK: Nick Mislak, AHRI. 18 MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel, Mitsubishi Electric. 19 MR. HURST: John Hurst with Lennox. 20 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp, Goodman. 21 MR. WINNINGHAM: Dave Winningham with Allied. 22 MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs, ACEEE. 23 MR. STARR: Louis Starr with NEEA. 24 MR. HUNT: Marshall Hunt, PG&E California IOUS. 25 MR. HILLBRAND: Alex Hillbrand, NRDC.

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 4 1 MS. HOOTMAN: Jill Hootman, Trane. 2 MR. WHITWELL: Bob Whitwell, Carrier. 3 MR. ZENDAH: Sami Zendah, Emerson. 4 MR. STAS: Eric Stas, DOE General Counsel's 5 office. 6 MR. CYMBALSKY: John Cymbalsky, DOE. 7 MS. COUGHLIN: Katie Coughlin, Lawrence 8 Berkeley Lab. 9 MR. ROSENQUIST: Greg Rosenquist, LBNL. 10 MR. LAU: Christopher Lau, Navigant. 11 MR. BATTAGLIA: James Battaglia, Navigant. 12 MR. McCABE: Mike McCabe, consultant to Trane. 13 MR. XU: Xing Xu, Navigant. 14 MR. KROWKA: Alex Krowka, Energetics. 15 MALE SPEAKER: On the webinar, we have Adam 16 Darlington, Armen Hower, David Ransom, Diane Jacobs, 17 Alcia Gallowish, Eilen Connolly, Jeff Worther, Jim del 18 Toro, Linda Wilson, Long Huang, Mark Terzigni, Michael 19 Shows, Michael Woodford, Mike Ray, and Steven Maddox. 20 MR. BANTLE: Thank you. And for the working 21 group members that are on the webinar, we have un-muted 22 your phones, so you can participate whenever you feel is 23 necessary. 24 Okay. I will turn it over to John from DOE. 25 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay. Thank you, Ted. All

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 5 1 right. Welcome, everyone, back to our little fun fest we 2 call the CWAF/CUAC negotiations. I think we're heading 3 down to the home stretch here. I think we're -- from my 4 point of view, we're closing in on the final sets of 5 numbers. I know there's been some questions raised over 6 the last few days about some of those spreadsheets and 7 such, so we're going to work through that. 8 Detlef Westphalen got stuck in Boston. His 9 flight was canceled due to the weather, but he's on the 10 o'clock flight and should be here maybe around 11 noontime. So what we're going to try to do is kind of 12 juggle the presentation a little bit to facilitate him 13 being here for some of the engineering issues that I 14 think it's important for him to be here to both answer 15 questions and to listen to the dialogue. So we're going 16 to do that. 17 In the meantime -- let me see -- let me take 18 you through a few introductory slides, kind of bring us 19 to where we are now, and then we'll turn it over to Greg 20 and the team to go through the furnaces portion fairly 21 quickly. I think at this point, we're pretty much got 22 that nailed down. 23 And then, again, we'll skip over some of the 24 engineering issues and go into some of the energy use 25 analysis and then circle back to the engineering later in

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 6 1 the day. 2 Okay. With that, here's our schedule that 3 we've been working off of. You could see now we're at 4 June 1st. We will provide the analysis with the revised 5 shipments. I will say, we received the shipments just 6 this past Wednesday, so we -- we have not had a lot of 7 time to plow them through, but we did get them in the 8 models. 9 Not to steal Greg's thunder, but we do think 10 the levels themselves are problematic. They appear to be 11 a little bit out of line with a lot of the other data. 12 However, I think the main point of using these shipments 13 data were for the efficiency distribution, and not 14 necessarily the level, which I don't think makes as big a 15 difference as the efficiency breakdown. So Greg will 16 take us through that, Greg and Katie. 17 And other than that, I don't have much to say 18 at the outset. So I'll just turn it over to Greg to talk 19 a little bit about the furnaces, unless anyone else wants 20 to raise issues before we drive in at the outset. 21 MR. ROSENQUIST: Good morning, everyone. We're 22 going to start off, as we usually do, talking about 23 CWAFs. 24 You don't like that abbreviation or acronym? 25 (Laughter.)

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 7 1 MS. HOOTMAN: I think of a hairdryer, and when 2 you're talking about gas furnaces, it would just be 3 singed. 4 (Laughter) 5 MR. ROSENQUIST: Okay. So we'll stick with 6 that image then, right? 7 MR. CYMBALSKY: But there's another meaning of 8 the word quaff which, you know, on a very hot summer day 9 in Washington after a long day of negotiating, we might 10 want to quaff a few IPAs. 11 MR. WHITWELL: Can we vote on that? Thumbs up? 12 (Laughter.) 13 MR. ROSENQUIST: So you know, based upon the 14 input we got from the last set of meetings, we did two 15 updates. We looked at the AHRI Directory that's being 16 used to come up with the distributions by model 17 availability, and apparently the count -- not apparently 18 -- the count for 81 percent AFUE was overestimated. 19 Apparently, there were models that were 20 repeated in the directory that should have been counted 21 as an independent unit. And so as a result, the market 22 share shifted dramatically to 80 percent, and so that's 23 what you see there. You see 76 percent of the market for 24 outdoor units at 80 percent, and 23 percent at 81. 25 It was reversed -- what you saw in our last

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 8 1 meeting was those numbers essentially reversed. The 2 numbers for indoor and oil have not been affected. 3 The other change was updating the lifetime. 4 Again, if you remember, the analysis incorrectly 5 interpreted the lifetime information we had for 6 commercial unitary air conditioners and used -- I came up 7 with a 26-year average. It really should have been 8 closer to this value you see here, which is 22.6. 9 Using that short of life, of course, reduces 10 the amount of operating cost savings you have for the 11 unit. So these -- these are the results -- the updated 12 results, Life-cycle cost results. 13 You know, the -- the amount of consumers’ 14 buildings with net costs for 82 percent is more or less 15 the same as what you saw last week. So a majority of 16 buildings or customers are incurring a net cost, although 17 the life-cycle cost savings is positive. 81 percent is 18 beneficial for an overwhelming amount of the customers 19 and buildings. Again, average life-cycle cost savings is 20 positive there as well. Oil furnaces have not changed 21 from what you saw last week, so those are the same 22 numbers. 23 And I'll move over to -- well, this was still 24 this trial standalone composition, this feeds into the 25 next slide which shows energy savings and NPV by these

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 9 1 trial standard levels. And here are the savings. 2 Now, the savings more or less are the same as 3 what you saw last week, that is .6 to 7 quads in total 4 for both product classes, and that's due to the fact 5 that, you know, four -- Because you've shifted so much of 6 the market share down to 80 percent now, you're getting 7 more energy savings due to the 81 percent and higher 8 efficiency levels. 9 So you would have maybe thought that decreasing 10 the lifetime would have decreased your energy savings, 11 but again, the thing that offset that and drove it a 12 little bit higher is the fact that you have a lot of the 13 market share now at 80 percent. But, I would say more or 14 less, the type of numbers we've been seeing over the 15 weeks has -- hasn't changed dramatically. 16 Still in the -- sort of the -- the .1, .2 range 17 for TS level 1 and 2 and .5 to .7 range for TSLs 3 and 4 18 for full-fuel-cycle quads. And then the -- the large, 19 large amount of energy savings you get for TSL 5, which 20 is the condensing level. 21 So with that, I'll pause here to see if anyone 22 has any comments or questions. 23 MR. deLASKI: Greg, it's Andrew. I just -- I 24 have a question for the manufacturers in the room. 25 So does that adjustment to the models comport

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 10 1 with your understanding of your own product offerings? 2 MR. WHITWELL: Bob Whitwell from Carrier. 3 Yeah, that, the 76-23 looks -- seems right to 4 me. Based on -- I looked at the AHRI Directory and came 5 up with some very similar numbers. 6 MR. deLASKI: Thanks. 7 MR. ROSENQUIST: So I'm going to move on then 8 if no one has any additional comments or questions. 9 So the next topic was supposed to be the 10 engineering analysis. You heard that Detlef has been 11 delayed. One of the primary things he was going to 12 discuss was the conversion curb installation issue and 13 where those occur at these different efficiency levels. I 14 would not do that justice in going over that material, so 15 I'll let him do that. 16 So I'm going to skip right over to the energy 17 use analysis. And when Detlef gets back, he'll -- I 18 think -- I think what we'll do is go over the energy use 19 analysis and the life-cycle cost analysis and hope by 20 that time Detlef returns so he can talk about the 21 conversion curb. 22 So energy use analysis updates. The only one 23 that -- that occurred for the energy use was to include 24 this conversion curb installation at all efficiency 25 levels.

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 11 1 So what you had seen last week is that -- were 2 results based upon no conversion curbs installed up 3 through EL 2.5. And then at EL 3, $1,000 installation 4 cost was incurred for seven-and-a-half ton units, $1,750 5 for 15 tons, and $4,000 for 30 tons. Now what this 6 analysis includes is a fraction of the market at each 7 efficiency level incorporating a conversion curb. 8 So what that does is that it raises the 9 external static pressure by .2 inches, which also has the 10 effect of increasing the fan power as well. So all the 11 fan powers that you'll be seeing here in the next slide 12 are higher than what you had seen from last week, 13 specifically for ELs zero through 2.5. 14 And so this is the first one for 15 seven-and-a-half tons. I mean, again, I'm -- the 16 comparison point is still the NOPR here. So -- you know, 17 the baseline number of around 18,000. We have a dual 18 baseline if you all recall. It's gone up a little bit, 19 right? It hasn't gone up a tremendous amount, but it has 20 gone up. 21 And you -- you would see that occurring also 22 for all the efficiency levels up through 2.5. So this is 23 -- you know, it's not as reflected here in what you see 24 in terms of energy use, but you'll see how it affects 25 things in terms of cost later when I present the

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 12 1 life-cycle cost results. These were -- again, these were 2 the numbers for seven-and-a-half tons. These are the 3 numbers for 15-tons. 4 MR. STARR: So this is Louis with NEEA. 5 How did it -- I was trying to -- I was flipping 6 back to the old slides from last week or whenever we were 7 here last just to see how these numbers changed. What 8 can you kind of just -- I know the NOPR, but I don't 9 really remember what last week's number was. 10 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yeah, I wish I had those. 11 MR. STARR: I mean, if you can just tell me in 12 general what the percentage change or -- 13 MR. ROSENQUIST: Well, again, for ELs zero 14 through 2.5, it's on the order of, I believe 1 to 5 15 percent at the most. And you have to remember the 16 cooling side is also impacted because of the additional 17 heat load that has to be rejected by the system due to 18 the higher amount of energy going to the motor to drive 19 the fan. So both the fan and the cooling do go up. 20 MR. STARR: Yeah. I would guess -- I would say 21 -- what I was thinking it would be a little bit more 22 impact just because of the size of the pressure drop, 23 two-tenths, but I guess the fan energy is such a small 24 portion of it. Is that what you mean? 25 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yeah. Not to steal Detlef's

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 13 1 thunder too much, but if I'm recalling correctly -- no, 2 I'm recalling correctly. Around 30 percent of the market 3 at the baseline level is getting a conversion curb, and 4 that, more or less, ramps up linearly through EL 3 until 5 around EL 3 where you get 70 percent. 6 So think of it maybe as going from 30 to 40 to 7 50 to 60, and then you hit 70. So the reason why it's 8 that level, I would say, is because it's only one-third 9 of the market that's being affected. 10 MR. STARR: Right. Okay. 11 MR. ROSENQUIST: Oh, you have the previous 12 ones? 13 Yeah, so for example, the total energy use at 14 the baseline for that first -- that first stage unit went 15 from 18,123 to 18,462. 16 MR. STARR: What page are you on in the old 17 slides? 18 MALE SPEAKER: 45 from the old slides. 19 (inaudible) some are up; some are down. 20 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yeah. Again, when you get to 21 EL 3 and further, you see a drop because not all of the 22 units are -- are getting a conversion curb. 23 Again, the last meeting's analysis had 100 24 percent of units at EL 3 and beyond getting a conversion 25 curb. Now it's on the order of 70 to 80 percent, and so

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 14 1 that's why you'll see a drop in energy consumption for 2 those efficiency levels, relative to what you saw from 3 the previous meeting. 4 Here are the 15-ton numbers, and here are the 5 30 tons. Apologies for not replacing the last two 6 efficiency levels 4 and 5. Those IEER levels are 14.9 7 for EL 4, and, I believe, 15.6 for EL 5. Again, 8 apologies for not updating that. 9 MR. deLASKI: I'm sorry, what did you just fill 10 in? 11 MR. ROSENQUIST: The IEER values for ELs 4 and 12 5. So 15.5 for EL 4 should actually be 14.9 and 15.6 for 13 that to be determined. 14 MR. STARR: So this is Louis with NEEA. 15 I notice on the 15-ton, you did start to see a 16 substantial jump, right? Looking at the old number on 17 the base case, you're at 32, and on the base case, you're 18 at 39. So you're starting to see more of a jump there. 19 MR. deLASKI: Don't forget, there was a typo 20 last time. 21 MR. STARR: Oh, there was a typo. Oh, right. 22 MR. deLASKI: So that first row isn't correct. 23 MR. STARR: Oh, okay. 24 MR. ROSENQUIST: Thank you, Andrew. 25 (Laughter.)

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 15 1 Yeah, again, I just want to repeat, all the 2 changes you're seeing now from last meeting are due to 3 this incorporation of the conversion curb for all 4 efficiency levels. 5 And again, for EL 3 and beyond, the energy use 6 numbers are going down because not all installations are 7 getting a conversion curb now. I know it's a lot of 8 numbers to mull over and digest, and I'm not going over 9 any additional inputs because we didn't make any -- any 10 other changes from last meeting. 11 So I don't know. I'll pause again. I mean, 12 you've all had a little opportunity to mull over the 13 numbers, but if you have any comments, questions, just 14 let me know. 15 I'll just plow ahead, then, in talking about 16 the life-cycle costs and payback period analysis. So 17 here, three -- there were three updates on this round. 18 Again, talking about the conversion curbs. 19 Again, as I've said before, we're incorporating 20 conversion curbs at all efficiency levels now, and again, 21 roughly a third of units installed at the baseline level 22 are getting a conversion curb. And as I said before, it 23 more or less linearly increases to efficiency level 3, 24 where it's about 70 percent. So that cost that -- that 25 was reported last week of $1,000 for seven-and-a-half,

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 16 1 $1,750 for 15, and $4,000 for 30, you could roughly -- 2 roughly use those percentages I gave you to give you the 3 sort of weighted average installed cost for conversion 4 curbs that each efficiency level gets. 5 So in other words, if you have a $1,000 6 conversion curb for seven-and-a-half tons at the baseline 7 level, on a weighted average basis, because a third of 8 them are getting them, 30 percent -- 33 percent times 9 $1,000, that's $333 on a weighted average basis, that EL 10 0 gets for conversion curb. 11 The next big change was that we did receive the 12 data for AHRI, shipments data in addition to market share 13 data by efficiency level, as well as market share data 14 that specified the amount of shipments that are constant 15 air volume units, and staged air volume, variable air 16 volume units. 17 The efficiency distribution data are important 18 for determining, you know, what fractions of the market 19 are impacted by a particular increase in the efficiency 20 level. And the fraction of shipments at constant air 21 volume and staged air volume and variable air volume are 22 -- it's important because it dictates sort of the energy 23 consumption of that building. 24 So we were using -- I'll get into this a little 25 bit later -- but we were using CBECS 2003 to identify the

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 17 1 fraction of buildings that were constant air volume or 2 variable air volume. Now we're actually using these data 3 to indicate that fraction. So I'll get into that a 4 little bit later here. 5 MR. deLASKI: Are you going to tell us the 6 differences? 7 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yes, yes. So as I said 8 earlier, the conversion curb was allocated to -- the 9 conversion curb cost was allocated to all efficiency 10 levels. Again, for the fraction of the market at each 11 efficiency level that needs to get a conversion curb 12 based upon the analysis, that will be presented by Detlef 13 later. 14 But here are the values. Here are the weighted 15 average values that you get for by efficiency level and 16 by equipment class. So as I said earlier, the baseline, 17 I said it was around $333; it's actually $308. And you 18 can see how that, more or less, linearly increases up to 19 efficiency level 3, and then starts -- seems to flatten 20 out a little bit as you increase efficiency. 21 So again, I want to -- I've been saying this 22 over and over, but I'll say it one more time: Last 23 meeting, we had $0 all the way up through 2.5, and $1,000 24 from 3 through 5. So now the life-cycle cost analysis is 25 now based upon these numbers.

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 18 1 MR. HUNT: Greg, Marshall Hunt, PG&E. I 2 understand the shipment data are proprietary or protected 3 by -- it's protected by NDA, right? 4 MR. ROSENQUIST: Well, we didn't sign a 5 nondisclosure agreement, so I'll be presenting the 6 efficiency distributions -- 7 MR. HUNT: Good. 8 MR. ROSENQUIST: -- in this package now. Maybe 9 this is -- (Laughter.) Probably too late to -- to 10 correct that, but -- 11 MR. HUNT: Well, I'm pleased. I'm pleased if 12 it's available. It certainly is going to be aggregated 13 to the point where I don't think I could pick on anybody. 14 Oh, excellent. Thank you so much. Appreciate 15 that. 16 MR. WHITWELL: Sorry, I missed that. What was 17 the question? 18 MR. HUNT: I wanted access to the shipment 19 data, and I wasn't certain whether it was proprietary or 20 not. But it's aggregated like Nick's saying, so I'm very 21 pleased that we get that. Thank you. 22 MS. HOOTMAN: And it also doesn't show if 23 there's less than 1 or 2, less than 3. 24 MR. deLASKI: Less than 3? 25 MS. HOOTMAN: Doesn't show any of the data.

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 19 1 MR. deLASKI: We're kind of jumping ahead to 2 the next topic, I think. 3 MR. HUNT: Thank you. 4 MR. STARR: So this is Louis Starr with NEEA. 5 So just from a bigger picture view, the curb 6 cost effect and the energy savings versus the curve cost. 7 It seems like the cost was more impactful in the life8 cycle than the energy savings part -- portion of it. In 9 other words, the effect of the energy savings is not that 10 -- doesn't seem to have much impact; however, the cost 11 does. 12 Does that intuitively kind of make sense to you 13 in kind of the overall kind of big picture analysis for 14 you? That the cost of the curb would be more impactful 15 than the energy cost? 16 MR. ROSENQUIST: Well, I think in all -- yeah 17 -- my answer's yes. (Laughter.) The numbers bear that 18 out, right? 19 MR. STARR: Yeah. 20 MR. ROSENQUIST: So, you know, you're talking 21 about hundreds of dollars here for -- for cost per unit, 22 as opposed to how -- what the conversion curb does to 23 raise external static pressure, and in turn, energy use 24 and what that translates to in terms of operating cost. 25 MR. STARR: Yeah. So we're talking 3- or $400

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 20 1 -- or 3- or 400 BTUs, and the cost of a BTU is not that 2 much compared to the cost of the curbs. 3 So I guess it really comes down -- the cost of 4 energy is not that impactful, and it really gets 5 converted to dollars otherwise. So I guess intuitively 6 that's why the huge difference in actual real dollars 7 make a difference as opposed to the cost of energy which 8 is really cheap. That's why you don't see much of an 9 impact on life cycles because of that. Okay. 10 MR. ROSENQUIST: So this is the market share 11 data by efficiency level for each of the three equipment 12 classes. I guess some notes I'd like to point out that, 13 you know, if you recall, the engineering analysis was 14 conducted assuming that the baseline design, EL zero was 15 represented with a constant air volume unit. 16 The efficiency data indicated that there were 17 variable air volume units at the baseline level. So in 18 order to reconcile that discrepancy, this analysis 19 distributed that market share at the baseline level for 20 variable air volume units to efficiency level 1. 21 So in other words, there was 9.3 percent of the 22 market at the baseline level for seven-and-a-half tons 23 that was moved to efficiency level 1. 16.9 percent for 24 15 tons. And then 11.2 percent for 30 tons. 25 Again, the reason why is -- is due to the way

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 21 1 the analysis was conducted. And, again, this is based 2 upon the assumption that only constant air volume units 3 were present -- are present at the baseline level. 4 So again, and we can -- we can talk about doing 5 something other than that. You know, I -- we could have 6 just kept the market share at the baseline level, but 7 we'd be -- we'd be representing that type of unit with a 8 constant air volume unit, which probably doesn't have the 9 same type of energy use when it comes to fan operation, 10 certainly, and also possibly compressor operation. 11 So again, this is a choice that we made. 12 Again, I don't think it has a terrible impact on the 13 life-cycle cost results you'll see later, but I just 14 wanted to point that out. 15 MR. SACHS: Greg, this is Harvey. And I just 16 wanted to make sure that my assumption that the third 17 dash -- bullet VAC was just a transposition of CAV. 18 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yes. 19 MR. SACHS: Because I wasn't sure what that new 20 acronym meant. 21 MR. ROSENQUIST: I guess I was a little bit 22 dyslexic that day. I can't say the word. 23 (Laughter.) 24 MR. STARR: So this is Louis -- 25 MR. ROSENQUIST: Late on Friday night.

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 22 1 MR. STARR: So this is Louis with NEEA. 2 So -- so looking -- let's say this small CA use 3 AC. So the NOPR had 61 percent, so basically its 4 increased to 69.2. So for the next one, EL 1, we were at 5 39 percent. So now if you added 29.2 plus 23.3. Now, by 6 VAV, do you mean staged air volume or are you talking 7 about -- or the CAV building and VAV building, maybe help 8 me understand, is that a difference in the unit, or is 9 that the type of building? What's the distinction in the 10 last two columns? 11 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yeah, those -- those designate 12 what fraction of each efficiency level gets allocated to 13 that type of a building in the life-cycle cost analysis. 14 So perhaps I should have kept those slides on that showed 15 the mappings of equipment designs to building -- to 16 buildings. 17 But, again, when we're placing a piece of 18 equipment into a VAV building, it's mapped, according to 19 that efficiency distribution that you see in that last 20 column. So efficiency level 1 is a staged air volume 21 equipment design. 22 MR. STARR: Okay. 23 MR. ROSENQUIST: Right? But it is suitable for 24 going into a variable air volume building, and based upon 25 the efficiency distribution that we got from AHRI, we're

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 23 1 saying that that efficiency level 1 unit gets put into 2 VAV buildings 23 percent of the time. 3 MR. STARR: So the VAV building, in determining 4 that's a VAV building -- 5 MR. ROSENQUIST: So in our last set of 6 meetings, as a reminder, we used 2003 CBECS to get that 7 breakdown. That was roughly a third of buildings were VAV 8 buildings. Now, this is getting to the last set of bullet 9 points on this slide. The AHRI data also indicated what 10 fraction of shipments were variable air volume or staged 11 air volume units versus constant air volume. 12 And so only 6 percent of seven-and-a-half ton 13 shipments were variable air volume or staged air volume 14 units according to the data again. And so again, that's 15 not -- it's hard to reconcile with the data that we had 16 from CBECS which said that, again, a third of buildings 17 were variable air volume buildings. 18 So as a result, we went with this data from 19 AHRI. We just adjusted -- adjusted our weighting and our 20 Life-cycle cost analysis for the building sample used for 21 seven-and-a-half tons so that only 6 percent of the time 22 would you pick a variable air volume building, because of 23 the fact that the shipments data indicate that only 6 24 percent of those shipments are variable air volume or 25 staged air volume units.

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 24 1 MR. STARR: Yeah, just -- 2 MR. ROSENQUIST: Now, again, what I want to say 3 about the 2003 CBECS data: Yes, it's good data. But 4 when it comes to perhaps giving you certainty at that 5 level of granularity, it's -- you know, there's always a 6 question there, right? 7 So especially when it comes to the type of 8 equipment being specified by CBECS, again, it doesn't say 9 "air-cooled rooftop units," as a type of equipment. It 10 says "packaged units." So that could also be a factor as 11 to why those fractions are larger than what's being 12 indicated by the AHRI data. 13 MR. STARR: Well, something to think about. So 14 when you looked in your CBECS data and you found a true 15 -- really a VAV building, your ability to actually take a 16 staged air volume and stick it into a VAV system is 17 probably not really doable. But I -- just something to 18 think about. 19 I mean, you can't -- let's say you had 20 something -- a building with a VAV unit with staged -- or 21 not staged air, but you had VAV boxes downstream of it. 22 The ability to come in and drop a staged air volume in 23 that application wouldn't work with the system. You 24 would actually need to replace it with -- if you have an 25 existing VAV system, you'd need one that is not a staged

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 25 1 air volume, but actually goes from 25 percent to 100 2 percent of the volume in order for the system to work 3 properly. 4 So I think I would suggest looking at -- see if 5 that -- I don't know if -- I just saw it right now, so I 6 don't really know if it's going to change your analysis, 7 but you really can't just replace a -- a system. If the 8 system is really a VAV system, you will not be able to 9 replace it with a staged air volume system. So something 10 to think about. 11 MR. ROSENQUIST: I mean, we can do another 12 sensitivity where we use the CBECS data as our driver for 13 the CAV and VAV buildings and just do this that way 14 again. 15 MR. STARR: You know, I don't know that that's 16 necessary. I -- since you've spent so much time with the 17 data, I would just think about what I've said and think 18 about whether it affects it. And if it doesn't, use your 19 best judgment on it. 20 MR. WHITWELL: Bob Whitwell from Carrier. 21 Louis, I think, based on the other analysis 22 that Greg has done, it's showed that the VAV units use 23 more energy than the SAV. So I think it would show more 24 energy usage if you were to do that analysis. So I mean 25

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 26 1 MR. STARR: Yeah. In reality, I haven't even 2 thought about how that affects it, but just in terms of 3 it doesn't -- you know, just logically doesn't really 4 drive so well. But probably, I think it ultimately may 5 not effect the analysis, and that's what we really -- 6 what we care about. 7 MR. deLASKI: Greg, I'm not quite sure I'm 8 understanding the numbers on the chart on the slides. 9 Maybe I missed something. 10 So if you look at line 1 there on that table, 11 EL 0, the IEER 11.4, 51 percent in the NOPR is the market 12 share. Is that changing? 13 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yeah, I mean, that's just a 14 comparison point, right? I provided the NOPR numbers so 15

-- 16 MR. deLASKI: Okay. So the column -- column 2 17 -- the CAV and the VAV columns show us the new market 18 shares -- 19 MR. ROSENQUIST: Correct. 20 MR. deLASKI: -- based on the AHRI data -- 21 MR. ROSENQUIST: Correct. 22 MR. deLASKI: -- submitted to you. 23 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yes. 24 MR. deLASKI: And you just split it up between 25 those two columns?

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 27 1 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yes. 2 MR. deLASKI: All right. Thank you. 3 MR. ROSENQUIST: You know, it's just -- things 4 to note in general is that, you know, it doesn't seem 5 like the NOPR was all that far off from at least the 6 efficiency distributions we're using for the constant air 7 volume buildings. 8 What is very different, I would say, is -- are 9 the distributions that we're now using for variable air 10 volume buildings. There's more market share at the 11 higher efficiency levels based upon the AHRI data. 12 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. I think the other thing 13 you see is, there are -- even on the CAV buildings, there 14 are more units at the higher EL levels today, right? 15 And the other interesting thing -- and I know 16 you don't see it here -- but once you get the -- once the 17 data is distributed, you'll see it that we have two sets 18 of data: One from 2011, and one from 2014. And -- 19 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yeah, I'm sorry to interrupt 20 you, but this is only 2014. 21 MR. WHITWELL: Right, no, I understand. Right. 22 MR. ROSENQUIST: Okay. 23 MR. WHITWELL: But 2010 -- 2010 ASHRAE 90.1 24 required and California Title 24 required the staged air 25 volume in order to comply with those building codes.

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 28 1 So if you look at 2011 versus 2014, the 2 percentage of units that have the staged air volume in 3 VAV has grown significantly, and that should continue to 4 be the trend as we go forward. 5 So -- so by the time we get to the point where 6 the next energy efficiency standard goes into effect, 7 this will -- there will even be a further shift to more 8 VAV or SAV volume, which is likely -- which will help to 9 reduce energy efficiency or energy usage from where -- 10 from the baseline that we're showing here. So it's -- 11 the market is moving, and it continues to move towards 12 staged air volume because of what's happening within 13 building codes. 14 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yeah, I mean, those numbers of 15 6 percent, 19.2 percent, and 34.6 percent for 16 seven-and-a-half, 15, and 30... again, those reflect 17 2014. 18 The 2011 numbers of, I believe I'm recalling 19 correctly, are zero percent, zero percent, and around, I 20 think, 17 or 15 percent for 30 tons in 2011. 21 So yeah, I mean, looking at that data, there's 22 definitely been a move to variable air volume units, 23 staged air volume, variable air volume units. 24 MR. WINNINGHAM: This is Dave with Allied. 25 So in your projection, though, you're using

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 29 1 just 2014 raw numbers, not -- 2 MR. ROSENQUIST: For the -- certainly for the 3 Life-cycle cost analysis. Now, we might as well discuss 4 that now for the shipments analysis. 5 Again, we -- you know, we do have a, what we 6 call a consumer choice model for efficiency. That's what 7 we used in the NOPR, and we had a very modest growth in 8 efficiency over time due to the limited -- due to the 9 very limited data that we had. 10 Now, because we got the data from AHRI on 11 Wednesday, we really didn't have an opportunity to 12 develop that portion of our shipments model, and so the 13 forecast efficiency is still relatively static over time. 14 And that affects, of course, what you see in terms of 15 national energy savings in that present value. 16 So one of the tasks that we'll have maybe after 17 this meeting is to try to do something to incorporate 18 that data, but I'll let Katie speak to that further. 19 MS. COUGHLIN: This is Katie, Lawrence Berkeley 20 Lab. 21 I just -- it's true that the efficiency, in 22 terms of the market share of the higher ELs, doesn't 23 change drastically in the current model because we don't 24 show a lot of -- consumers are cost-sensitive; however, I 25 just wanted to remind everybody that there is this energy

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 30 1 -- there's a scaling factor for the energy use that 2 represents the change in the building stocks. 3 So that does account for kind of a general 4 higher penetration for variable air volume and various 5 other things. 6 MR. STARR: So this is Louis. 7 Just to make sure, on the VAV side, that's 8 basically the AHRI data based upon basically the 9 efficiency levels, the IEER levels? Is that how that's 10 distributed across there? 11 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yeah, they were actually 12 provided in bins, right? 13 MR. STARR: Bins. Oh, okay. So that's those 14 bins we talked about a long time ago. Okay. So that's 15 how they split up the shares of that -- 16 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yeah, and that's another thing 17 I should note, actually. So the bins, for example, for 18 seven-and-a-half ton were 11.4 to 12.9. 12.9 -- actually 19 they were -- actually I should be a little bit more 20 detailed about that. 21 They were -- there were two sets of bins, one 22 for units with electric or no heat, and one for units 23 with other heat, which is generally gas heat. And for 24 rooftop air conditioning units, that's the -- that's 25 where most of the shipments are. They're in the --

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 31 1 they're with the other heat category, which is presumably 2 gas, right. 3 And so that actual efficiency bin is, I 4 believe, rather than 11.4 to 12.9; it's, I believe, 11.2 5 to 12.7. So -- but, we're stuck with these IEER 6 efficiency levels just to maintain consistency with what 7 was done with the NOPR where the approach there was -- at 8 least from the engineering perspective -- was an electric 9 or no heat sort of unit. 10 But yes, so what we had to do when we got up to 11 an efficiency bin of -- there was an efficiency bin of 12 14.0 to 14.8, let's say. That bin we had to divide up 13 amongst two efficiency levels: 14.0 and 14.5. So we 14 just divided that in half. 15 MR. STARR: Wasn't -- so I think Dick Lord, and 16 I think Joanna, or maybe someone else discussed these 17 bins. And I -- so those -- so you're saying 12.9 to 11.4 18 is the first bin for -- 19 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yes. 20 MR. STARR: -- 23.3? 21 I was thinking for some reason we went to the 22 midpoints between those numbers. But, no. Okay. 23 MR. ROSENQUIST: And, you know, because I -- 24 because I took the perspective that anything in that bin 25 wouldn't meet the efficiency level. Like efficiency

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 32 1 level 1, I assigned that full percentage, for example, to 2 the baseline level, right. 3 Because there's no -- there's no further 4 information to say how that product is distributed within 5 that bin. So it could very well be clustered at the low 6 end; it could be just a normal distribution; it could be 7 clustered at the high end. Who knows, right? 8 MR. STARR: Okay. 9 MR. ROSENQUIST: But, again, I took the 10 perspective that, you know, a unit in that bin cannot -- 11 does not meet the efficiency -- the prior -- the 12 efficiency level above it. So I assigned it completely 13 to the lower efficiency level. 14 MR. STARR: So the 12.9 has -- there's 23 15 percent of the market that's somewhere between 11.41 and 16 12.9? 17 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yeah. The 29.2 percent, for 18 example -- 19 MR. STARR: Okay. 20 MR. ROSENQUIST: -- it is in the bin of 12.9 to 21 14.0. But it's been -- 22 MR. STARR: Oh, okay. 23 MR. ROSENQUIST: -- all assigned. All that's 24 been assigned to 12.9 in this analysis. 25 MR. STARR: Okay. Got it.

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 33 1 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, so there's some 2 conservatism in there. 3 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yeah. 4 MR. WHITWELL: And Louis, I mean, we didn't go 5 to the midpoints because then I don't know what Greg 6 would have done with that. I mean, at least by going 7 with what was in the NOPR, he could -- he could assign it 8 somewhere. 9 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yeah, and you have to remember 10 the engineering, the energy use, is all based upon these 11 efficiency levels that you see here, right? The 12 engineering analysis, of course, drove its analysis to 13 these IEER levels. 14 And then the resulting details, you know, the 15 performance of that unit is very much dependent upon how 16 they drew up that design to meet that IEER level. 17 MS. HOOTMAN: So Greg, I just want to -- this 18 is Jill from Trane. 19 I just want to add that when you said about, 20 you know, the -- it's mostly gas in the gas heat in the 21 anything else. There's also, at 30 tons, product made 22 that has steam and hot water heat. So anything in that 23 20 through 63 tons -- 24 MR. SHOWS: Hey, good morning, guys. Sorry I'm 25 late. I was in an interview. Happy Monday, gentlemen.

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 34 1 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yeah, I'm sorry, would you mind 2 stating your name? 3 MS. HOOTMAN: Jill Hootman from Trane. 4 MR. CYMBALSKY: No, sorry. Online, the voice. 5 MR. ROSENQUIST: Michael Shows from -- from the 6 lab. You were probably talking to your staff it sounds 7 like, so you might want to mute your phone. 8 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay. Go ahead, Jill. Sorry. 9 MS. HOOTMAN: So anyway, there's a small 10 percentage. You're right, it's overwhelmingly gas, but I 11 just want to make sure people understand that there are 12 other options of heat -- steam and hot water -- in those 13 products. 14 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yeah, it's a good time to 15 bring up that for the -- I'll say it -- the CWAF 16 analysis. (Laughter.) That the data indicated on, like, 17 on average 80 percent of rooftop AC units were "other." 18 In the "other" category, and then -- so that was used to 19 drive the amount of shipments, right, for that analysis 20 to come up with those national energy savings and MPV 21 numbers. 22 So -- I mean, to the extent that there's other 23 types of "other" in that category, then that -- we're 24 over-representing those shipments. So -- 25 MS. HOOTMAN: Right, right. But, I mean, they

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 35 1 have the same effect as far as fan, and fan distribution, 2 and stuff like that. So I don't think we need to call 3 them out. I just want to -- they're less than 1 -- maybe 4 in the 1 to 2 percent of those. So they're not -- it's 5 not huge. But those in the northeast really do want your 6 steam and hot water still. 7 MR. STARR: So I like talking about steam and 8 hot water. But one -- so the question on this -- so the 9 very large, so you're looking at 240,760, which is 20 to 10 63 tons or something. So pretty much when that -- when a 11 unit like that goes on a building, you are -- well, I 12 should ask this question. 13 I don't think you're in staged air volume, but 14 I think you are in the VAV system. What I'm surprised -- 15 so VAV, basically, in other words, continues from VAV, 16 not staged air volume is at EL-3 and above. Is that 17 right? I should make -- I forgot the little chart with 18 the -- 19 MR. ROSENQUIST: No, I'm trying to recall that. 20 MR. deLASKI: We should probably look at it. 21 MR. ROSENQUIST: I know that for 30 tons, it is 22 -- it's -- they are different equipment designs than for 23 seven-and-a-half and 15. I think when it's -- I think it 24 might be truly a -- 25 MR. STARR: So there's some split --

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 36 1 MR. ROSENQUIST: We should look -- 2 MR. STARR: Yeah, we should. 3 MR. CYMBALSKY: -- during the break. 4 MR. STARR: Even without looking, just 5 intuitively, at some point you switch from staged air 6 volume to, you know, continuous VAV, and it happens at 7 some EL level. What is surprising is the level that that 8 switch is at. I mean, if you look at the percentage of 9 market of the VAV, it's not very much. And if you would 10 need, I would think, at least 2.5 and above, you're 11 definitely at a VAV system. And you're only seeing 19 12 plus 12, or you're at a third of the market of the 13 shipments, right? Because that's the shipments on the -- 14 MS. HOOTMAN: So Louis, this is Jill from 15 Trane. What you have to understand is what happens here, 16 because you do have the 20 and 25 ton in here. There's a 17 big difference in 30 through 63 tons versus 20 and 25. 18 20 and 25 overlaps with our light commercial product 19 lines. And so it has -- and it's a higher volume. 20 So it's really skewing things here if you were 21 to truly look at just 30 through 63, it would be way 22 higher, way higher VAV. So we're actually -- was kind of 23 surprised that they were as low as they were. We would 24 have thought they were higher. 25 MR. STARR: Yeah, I would have thought the

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 37 1 same. 2 MS. HOOTMAN: And so that's really what's 3 happening because you have overlap of product lines that 4 are 20 and 25 tons that are light commercial that are 5 constant volume, and so those have such a high number. 6 That's what's skewing it and pulling it down. 7 MR. STARR: So you're basically having 20-ton 8 units that are probably going on large retail of some 9 sort. And so what it's saying is that we've got a bunch 10 of -- 11 MS. HOOTMAN: Gymnasium (inaudible) whatever. 12 MR. STARR: Wouldn't -- don't those have to be 13 -- even a large 20-ton going on, you know, a large retail 14 space, doesn't that still have to be a VAV system, above 15 seven-and-a-half horsepower you need a -- 16 MALE SPEAKER: Stage. 17 MR. STARR: -- stage. Can be staged? Okay. 18 MS. HOOTMAN: Can be staged. And you could 19 actually still use constant volume for one of the 20 features. 21 MR. STARR: Oh, okay. Yeah, I was thinking 22 that 90.1 was forcing you into a 50 percent -- at 50 23 percent flow, you have to do 30 percent of the power or 24 something. It basically forces you into getting you at a 25 staged air volume, but that must be -- they must still

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 38 1 save it up for that. 2 MALE SPEAKER: (Inaudible.) 3 MR. STARR: Oh, so I get it. Got it. 4 MR. ROSENQUIST: Okay. I think -- I think I've 5 gone over this in enough detail. So now we will move on 6 to the results. 7 So is there any way I can just move it down? 8 There you go. 9 So the one thing for seven-and-a-half tons, 10 now, again, these -- these numbers, I guess, for 11 increased efficiency, our -- for three and 12 three-and-a-half, four and five, relative to the lower 13 efficiency levels are actually better. Because you -- 14 your -- your -- you don't -- you're not -- you're 15 incurring a cost for the curb over them, right? But not 16 as great as you saw in the numbers from last -- from the 17 last meeting. 18 And again, in addition to that, since, again, a 19 large fraction of these units between 3 and efficiency 20 levels 3 and 5 are getting conversion curb, they are less 21 than what you saw last week. 22 And so they also -- their energy use is a 23 little bit different. So those two effects of, you know, 24 reducing an energy cost for operation of the unit and 25 reducing installed costs that make them relatively --

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 39 1 look relatively better against the older -- against the 2 lower efficiency levels. 3 One thing that probably really screams out at 4 everybody if you look at that lower table is that the 5 average life-cycle costs savings for efficiency level 1 6 are negative. And this has to do almost entirely with 7 changing the fraction of constant air volume and variable 8 air volume buildings. 9 Again, and we had roughly one-third in the 10 prior set of results that were variable air volume 11 buildings; now we only have 6 percent. And if you look 12 at the characteristics of the baseline unit which has a 13 single-stage and a two-stage design at efficiency level 14 1, which has a constant air volume design and a staged 15 air volume/variable air volume design, the actual fan 16 energy consumption of the efficiency level 1 constant air 17 volume unit, which is now representing 94 percent of the 18 market for efficiency level 1, has higher energy 19 consumption than the baseline level. 20 And the -- also the condenser fan, actually, is 21 greater as well. Of course, the compressor power 22 decreases for efficiency level 1, that constant air 23 volume unit, relative to the baseline design. 24 But, again, since we've all seen throughout 25 these last set of -- these meetings is that there's an

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 40 1 awful lot of fan energy use that's going on with these 2 units when they're put in these buildings. And that has 3 the effect of not entirely, of course -- it still reduces 4 energy use, it just doesn't reduce it all that much to 5 the point where you actually come up with negative LCC 6 savings for that level. 7 You know, this is -- I would say this is an 8 outcome of two things. One: That we have now virtually 9 all of the buildings being represented by constant air 10 volume buildings, 94 percent. And two: The type of 11 designs -- the type of design that was developed for the 12 baseline units and efficiency level 1. 13 MR. STARR: So 2, I mean, you're also in the EL 14 1. You're introducing additional costs to the curb and 15 more energy use. So you're -- 16 MR. ROSENQUIST: Right. 17 MR. STARR: -- even though you're getting 18 slightly higher efficiency, you're losing it with 19 overcoming the curb. And then you're also adding $400 to 20 $500 on -- 21 MR. ROSENQUIST: Right. 22 MR. STARR: -- because of that. So you're 23 actually moving backwards. 24 One thing I would also note, that we didn't do 25 the analysis, but it's something else to consider. A lot

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 41 1 of times when you convert one unit to another, you're 2 actually changing it from Manufacturer A to B. So you 3 actually, a lot of times, incur even a higher pressure 4 drop. 5 So counter-intuitively, if you go from your -- 6 if you've got this nice Carrier on the roof and you want 7 to switch over to another unit that doesn't have the 8 exact same footprint, then a lot of times you have this 9 conversion curb that even jumps you higher. And so a lot 10 of times it makes sense to stay with the same 11 manufacturer so you don't have a huge pressure drop 12 increase. 13 So a lot of owners look at the price, not 14 realizing they're actually going to incur a higher cost 15 by, you know, switching up to maybe a more-efficient 16 unit. But they lose it all because they have to do this 17 landscape to portrait curb and a whole bunch of other 18 things that are not so good. 19 MR. ROSENQUIST: I think, finally the last 20 thing I want to point out is, from the last set of 21 meetings, the maximum LCC savings point -- maximum 22 average LCC savings point was efficiency level 2.5, and 23 now its been moved to EL 3, if you disregard EL 5. 24 So that's, in some sense, the effect of these 25 -- these changes on the conversion curb and with the

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 42 1 efficiency distributions and with a fraction of CAV and 2 VAV buildings, it's the resulting effect of -- again, if 3 you disregarded the EL 5, is that you're moving the 4 maximum LCC savings point from two-and-a-half to 3. 5 MR. STARR: I've got one last question. On 6 this chart on 43, what's the sum on each one of the 7 small, large, and very large? What's the proportion of 8 CAV and VAV for each one of the classes? 9 MR. ROSENQUIST: For each of the classes? 10 MR. STARR: Yeah. In other words, for the 11 seven-and-a-half ton, there's a certain portion of the 12 market that is the CAV, and a certain portion of the 13 market is VAV. And for each one of those, the small, 14 large, and very large, I was wondering what those numbers 15 are. 16 MR. ROSENQUIST: You see them right here on 17 this -- right here. Six percent, then it goes up to 19.2 18 percent, and then 34.6 percent. 19 MR. STARR: So 6 percent -- 20 MR. ROSENQUIST: And, again, for the -- for the 21 analysis that you were presented with at the last 22 meeting, it was a third -- roughly a third across the 23 board. 24 MR. STARR: Okay. 25 MR. ROSENQUIST: So I'm going to move on to 15

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 43 1 tons. I would say, in general, the move here to the 2 conversion curb revisions -- I mean, we had -- we had 3 fairly attractive results last time. Now they're, I 4 would say, a little bit more attractive in terms of -- 5 economically attractive, I should say. 6 If I'm moving straight down to the average LCC 7 savings and the percent of consumers with that cost, the 8 average LCC savings have gone up, but percent of 9 consumers within that cost have gone down relative to 10 what you saw at the last meeting. 11 Again, you're at a point now where your maximum 12 LCC savings point is efficiency level 4, whereas before, 13 it was efficiency level 3 from the meetings from last 14 week. 15 MR. CYMBALSKY: So this is John from DOE. I'm 16 going to go back to our NOPR public meeting where we -- 17 we looked at some, I guess I'll call it marketing 18 material for better -- lack of a better term from a 19 couple of the manufacturers that showed paybacks of their 20 -- most their -- the rooftop-challenge type units, and 21 they showed a payback of under three years. 22 So it looks like our 15-ton revised analysis 23 now fits with the data that the manufacturers actually 24 posted on their website. So I'm starting to feel more 25 comfortable with the numbers.

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 44 1 MR. STARR: So this is Louis. One question: I 2 remember part of this from last week incorporating the -- 3 something about this -- to incorporate the curb cost, you 4 weren't going to be able to really -- it was going to 5 effect your -- the way you were doing it -- I think Katie 6 was going to do it. You weren't going to be able to 7 accurately carry that through in the percent of net -- 8 MR. ROSENQUIST: Thank you, Louis. Thank you. 9 Yeah, so the averages are correct, but the 10 percent of winners and losers, because of the way we had 11 to do the analysis, are not reflective of the analysis 12 where X percent of the market has to get a curb and X 13 percent doesn't. Because we're, again, conveying an 14 average cost, an average energy use impact, into the 15 life-cycle cost analysis. So thank you for that 16 reminder. 17 MR. STARR: But, I mean, in this case, the 18 percents are so low. It's not like we're talking about 19 30, 40, 50 percent, right? We're talking less than 10, 20 so it doesn't really matter. 21 MR. ROSENQUIST: And on now, 30 tons, unless 22 there was a question of 15? 23 Again, the -- the attractiveness of ELs 4 and 5 24 have gone -- gone significantly up relative to the 25 numbers you saw from last week. We actually didn't have

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 45 1 -- I'm sorry. I apologize, we didn't even present ELs 4 2 and 5 last week. So we only went through EL 3. 3 MALE SPEAKER: It still holds, though. 4 MR. ROSENQUIST: Little bit of a brain lock 5 there. I guess I was just surprised to see how 6 attractive ELs 4 and 5 were, that's all. So I will pause 7 here because this is a good break point here to stop and, 8 I guess, take any comments or questions on these results. 9 Again, there's a lot to digest here. I would 10 just have to say, in general, that, you know, 11 seven-and-a-half tons were marginally -- well, not 12 marginally, they were impacted by this change, but just 13 not as significantly, I would say, as what you've seen 14 here in 15 and 30. 15 I wish Detlef were here so I could go over the 16 conversion curb stuff. 17 MR. SACHS: I wonder -- 18 MALE SPEAKER: The flight arrives at 10:42? 19 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yeah, it arrives at 10:42. 20 MALE SPEAKER: We can take a little break and 21 -- well (inaudible). 22 MR. SACHS: That's -- that's what I was going 23 to suggest. There does seem to be a great deal to 24 digest, and we're at a transition point. 25 MR. ROSENQUIST: I mean, we -- I mean, if he's

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 46 1 going to land at 10:40, though, he's probably not going 2 to get here until 1:00. Optimistically, quarter to 3 12:00. 4 MALE SPEAKER: Oh, quicker than that. 5 MR. ROSENQUIST: Quicker than that? 6 MR. CYMBALSKY: I authorized the use of Uber so 7

-- 8 (Laughter.) 9 MR. ROSENQUIST: That assumes he knows how to 10 use it, though. 11 (Laughter.) 12 MR. BANTLE: Okay. I have 10:37 on my 13 computer. Let's take 15, 20 minutes, look through this 14 data, and we'll come back with questions for Greg. Thank 15 you. 16 So come back around 10:50? 10:50 we'll just 17 say to make it even? 11:00? Okay. We'll give it to 18 11:00 o'clock. Perfect. Thank you. 19 (Recess taken.) 20 MR. BANTLE: So it looks like we have almost 21 everyone back, so we will get started. We'll turn it -- 22 any questions, comments on the information that was 23 presented by Greg. Any questions or comments? 24 MR. SACHS: Our reading now is from which 25 slides?

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 47 1 MR. BANTLE: I think we're just looking for any 2 questions on Greg's stuff before we hand it over to 3 Navigant. 4 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp from Goodman. I'll 5 start. One of the things that I, as we look at the 6 analysis, specifically slides 44 to 46, SMACNA indicated 7 in the previous discussion that installed cost, per their 8 survey, was in the range of $2,500 per ton. The lower 9 range was about $2,000 per ton. And the numbers in these 10 don't comport with what SMACNA came up with. 11 So I think it would be good for us to consider 12 the differences and where those differences might lie at 13 least to find out where those -- because it's about half 14

-- 15 MR. CYMBALSKY: So this is John from DOE. So 16 you're saying, just scale all the numbers, though not 17 necessarily between TSLs. 18 So I think, again, going back to my comment, 19 which I was referencing your company and another 20 company's payback periods for the rooftop challenge 21 units, and it seems like we got the payback period now. 22 We were multiples of what you guys purported on 23 your website. So the fact that the payback periods now 24 match the manufacturers versus the DOE analysis, I feel 25 like, at least the differential between the EL levels

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 48 1 have come into line with what -- what you guys report in 2 your marketing materials. So I actually feel a lot 3 better about the numbers. 4 Now, if you're saying we should just make the 5 installed cost scale across all the ELs, I mean, that's 6 something -- it won't change the policy decision or the 7 negotiations. It just makes the numbers inflated across 8 the board. 9 MR. WHITWELL: And as far as the marketing 10 values that are put on public pages, you know, those 11 typically do -- that's like a best-case-type situation we 12 use in marketing. So it's -- wouldn't necessarily be the 13 average that you would see. Which, I guess, these simple 14 paybacks are expected to be an average value, correct? 15 But what we put in our marketing material is -- it's not 16 uncommon to take, you know, to use a high electricity 17 rate and a low -- and a high cooling hour area to -- and 18 that's what you -- so that wouldn’t necessarily be 19 representative of the average. So that's a pretty common 20 marketing process -- 21 MR. CYMBALSKY: It's not all -- 22 MR. WHITWELL: -- I can say that as an 23 engineer. 24 MR. HURST: So this is John Hurst from Lennox. 25 It's also not always representative of customer behavior

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 49 1 in terms of what they buy. I mean, if you looked at the 2 volumes, yeah, I wish people bought on life cycle-cost, 3 but that's not always the case. It's not typically the 4 case. 5 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yeah, no. I would -- I'm not 6 -- I wasn't making a statement about what they buy. 7 However, we do -- we do notice now that with the new AHRI 8 data for the -- for the smaller units, we have over -- 9 we're nearing 40 percent at EL 3 and above. And for the 10 15-ton units, we have 30 -- 11 MR. WHITWELL: Where are you, John? 12 MR. CYMBALSKY: I'm on page 43 -- slide 43. 13 MR. WHITWELL: Thank you. 14 MR. CYMBALSKY: So again, the new data provided 15 by AHRI, which obviously we appreciate, points, you know, 16 to a substantial market at EL 3 or above for the 17 seven-and-a-half and 15-ton representative units, and 18 getting up to over, what, 16 percent for the 30-ton. 19 So yeah, so I think -- I mean, to me, all the 20 data changes, to me, point in the right direction in 21 terms of all the numbers we've seen; not just our own, 22 but all the numbers that are out there, public and 23 available, and now what's supplemented by the AHRI data. 24 So, you know, I mean -- I think the installed 25 cost, if we're just talking about scaling all of them

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 50 1 again, the absolute values will change. But what's 2 important, I think, is the increments. And so if we're 3 just going to scale dollars per ton, it's going to scale 4 everywhere from what at least I could tell from what 5 you're saying. And I guess the values... What's the 6 value in terms of what we're going to negotiate on the 7 policy decision? But, points taken. 8 MALE SPEAKER: (Inaudible.) 9 MR. CYMBALSKY: No, I don't think -- 10 MR. deLASKI: So what did Rusty -- because if 11 the cost is going to go up -- this is Andrew -- it goes 12 up, that dollar-per-ton is in the base case, too. 13 MR. CYMBALSKY: Right. So it will -- it won't 14 effect the payback. It will just -- it will just scale 15 all the numbers up by whatever that increment is. And I 16 guess what I'm saying is, the increment will stay the 17 same. It's just -- it will be different numbers. The 18 increment will stay the same, but you'll just inflate 19 every number. 20 MR. RAMIREZ: Mark, do you have something? 21 MR. TERZIGNI: No. Just to mention 22 (inaudible). 23 MR. WHITWELL: So Bob Whitwell from Carrier. 24 So John, just a comment on the, you know, your comment 25 earlier about the payback. And, you know, when I look

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 51 1 specifically at page 45 in the 15-ton and look at the 2 payback and the percent of consumers with net cost, it's 3 showing, you know, at those high levels, basically at -- 4 everyone's saving money. 5 I just question -- I mean, something just 6 doesn't smell right in the analysis there, because if 7 that was the case, it would seem like we'd be selling -- 8 the industry would be selling a lot more volume in those 9 higher efficiency levels than what we're actually seeing. 10 MR. CYMBALSKY: So this goes to John Hurst's 11 comment about people not buying on life-cycle cost. And 12 therefore, the reason this program exists is because the 13 markets are very first-cost sensitive, as opposed to 14 life- cycle cost sensitive. 15 So what you're seeing here is that over a long 16 life of the equipment... These things are long-lived, 17 right? 20-plus years we have here. We know building 18 owners don't -- they're not purchasing on 20 years. So 19 that's why you get the low market share. Even though, 20 over the life, if people were to evaluate it that way, 21 they would choose it. So that's why the program actually 22 is in existence is -- 23 MR. WHITWELL: Well, yeah. And then -- I mean, 24 the other comment that we've made in the past meetings is 25 about the life.

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 52 1 I mean, the 22-year life seems quite long. And 2 I guess we had some comments from SMACNA supporting that, 3 as well as what we see in the industry that the 17, 4 18-year life seems much more realistic to us. 5 MR. deLASKI: This is Andrew -- 6 MR. WHITWELL: I don't know -- I don't know if 7 there's any new analysis on the volume analysis based on 8 that to support that, but -- 9 MR. deLASKI: This is Andrew. And we've spent 10 some time on life in some of our earlier meetings. And I 11 just want to remind people, that's a distribution under 12 -- what was it? An "a-ha" moment for me was 13 understanding that there's a distribution underlying that 14 average life. 15 So when there was a time -- and Jill had raised 16 the point that, look, there's a lot of customers who, you 17 know, I don't know what your example was, but it was 18 changing the whole -- everything in 10 years or something 19 like that. 20 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. 21 MR. deLASKI: And Katie, I think, said incur 22 the distribution, said, "Yeah, that's in there." There's 23 10-year, they're all out of products that they're 24 replacing in 10 years. So again, it's an average. It's 25 not --

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 53 1 MR. WHITWELL: No, I understand. 2 MR. deLASKI: -- it's not the whole market. 3 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, I understand that's an 4 average, but still -- I mean -- 5 MS. HOOTMAN: You would say the weighting is 6 different. 7 MR. WHITWELL: -- so the average going from 18 8 to 22, that's -- you know, that's a significant shift in 9 the average from what our experience has been. 10 MR. STARR: So you know -- this is Louis with 11 NEEA. So we have our sixth power plan, and we're now 12 coming up with our seventh power plan. But in that, we 13 did a study of RTUs and their age of it. And we split it 14 up in 5, and 5 to 10 tons, and 10 tons. So this is of 15 our service area, which would be Washington, Oregon, 16 Idaho, and Montana. You know, we're looking at unit age 17 as years in the distributions. And so we have 14,000 18 that are zero to four; 26,000 are five to ten; 28,000 are 19 ten to nine; and 13,000 are over 20. 20 So I mean, I know our climate's a little milder 21 than most, perhaps, but there are a substantial amount of 22 equipment does -- you know, not to say -- I don't know. 23 I'm not so sure that 22 is that far off. 24 MR. WHITWELL: So what were those numbers 25 again?

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 54 1 MR. STARR: Tell you what, I'll -- I'll ship 2 them out to the -- but they were 14, 26, 28, and 13. And 3 that's zero to four, five to ten, ten to nine, and 4 20-plus. 5 MR. deLASKI: 19. 6 MS. HOOTMAN: Ten to 19. 7 MR. STARR: Ten to 19, right. And that's in 8 our power plan, the sixth power plan, too. So you should 9 be able to grab it out of that. 10 MALE SPEAKER: (Inaudible.) 11 MR. STARR: Well, I mean, you're seeing 13,000 12 over 20-plus, right? So that's -- 13 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah, but that's still -- 14 MR. STARR: 10 to 15 percent of your market, 15 is... that share is a pretty large number. 16 MS. HOOTMAN: I don't know, doing it -- doing 17 it, it sounds like you're weighted more to the 17, and 18 agreed, you're in a very mild climate. You know, he 19 said, "Yes, the southeast would not look like that 20 profile at all." 21 MR. HUNT: Hi, this is Marshall Hunt, PG&E and 22 IOUs. This essentially is a split incentive problem. 23 Those who pay the money for the equipment are not those 24 that pay the utility bills. So I'm always concerned 25 about the customer point of view. And, again, the reason

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 55 1 this is driven by the lowest cost is because I don't -- I 2 buy the equipment, and I don't pay the utility bill. 3 Thank you. 4 MS. HOOTMAN: Exactly, Marshall. This is Jill 5 from Trane. And along the lines, too, that John was 6 talking about, I think that, you know, theoretically or 7 what we know to be the practice of a very top-down 8 approach by the Department here is -- is sometimes very 9 suspect, really, when we know the consumer doesn't think 10 that way at all. They think very first cost, and at 11 most, look at one level above the bottom. 12 So when you look at, like, the seven-and-a-half 13 ton and you see that 48 percent at EL-1 of the customers 14 have a net cost increase, that's going to start to really 15 change the marketplace. And, in fact, cause retraction 16 in the marketplace, large retraction. 17 And then we go back to, you know, what we've 18 all been on public comments about. You know, the 19 retraction in the marketplace has not been looked at 20 correctly in my opinion in this analysis in the NOPR. 21 MR. WINNINGHAM: This is Dave with Allied. And 22 I think it's important to look at this energy analysis 23 kind of in total. Obviously, this is being driven by the 24 fan energy savings. And there -- I know there's been a 25 lot of work and input into this, but per the NOPR, the

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 56 1 fan energy savings was kind of somewhat taken to task in 2 that it is outside of the current test procedure. 3 And as we have moved towards measures to align 4 it with what we think our building use is, we've 5 dramatically increased the fan power, and it is still 6 outside of the test procedure. The basis of the -- of 7 the DOE work is supposed to be based upon the energy use 8 per the test procedure. And obviously we're working well 9 outside of this. 10 And in looking at, particularly on the 11 seven-and-a-half ton, I'd also question the model -- the 12 models that were chosen. The -- for TSL-1 and TSL-2, the 13 fan energy power is significantly above the base, and 14 that's a key driver in the higher paybacks here. So I 15 think -- we don't see that in the other models, but on 16 the seven-and-a-half ton, that seems to be particularly 17 problematic. 18 MR. CYMBALSKY: This is John from DOE. I just 19 want to address your first point about the energy savings 20 not captured by the test procedure. In fact, that 21 happens in every rule. 22 For example, if you install LED lighting, you 23 have less cooling load, and those savings are picked up 24 in our models because those interaction effects are 25 actually very important, as they are in this rule.

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 57 1 So I just wanted to correct that statement, 2 your first part of your statement. 3 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey, John. Just 4 clarification, you're referring to the LED lights in 5 commercial refrigeration equipment, not -- 6 MR. CYMBALSKY: Well, I mean, just generally 7 speaking, that's -- that's -- that's what happens. 8 Also, with the furnace fan rule, if you use a 9 motor that gives off less heat, you have to use less heat 10 in the furnace. We capture all that in these rules, and 11 this is -- this is no different. 12 MR. WHITWELL: Well, there is -- there is a -- 13 there is a difference here. And that is that the fan 14 energy savings that's in the analysis is assuming that 15 for those -- for that EL level that the fan is actually 16 operating as a staged air or VAV. 17 There's nothing -- I mean, you can build, 18 design a unit and meet the IEER level, and it's a 19 manufacturer’s design decision on whether they're going 20 to do it with a staged fan or not, right. So -- so 21 that's just -- I mean, the analysis, assuming the staged 22 fan . . . it's a best-case situation, but it may not be 23 what manufacturers end up doing in reality. 24 So -- and it, because it's not captured in the 25 test procedure, it's outside what's in the test

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 58 1 procedure, manufacturers can hit an IEER level without 2 having to use a staged air fan. Now, they may not. They 3 may go with the staged air fan, or they may not, but it's 4 not part of the test procedure. 5 MR. CYMBALSKY: Well, my recollection is we 6 went over that, but -- I thought we walked through that 7 discussion that that would be the most likely way to do 8 it, but -- 9 MR. WHITWELL: John, I'm not arguing that it 10 may be the way to do it [or] the way that most do it, but 11 since it's not part of the test procedure, it's just -- 12 it's not guaranteed, right? 13 MR. WINNINGHAM: And this is Dave with Allied. 14 And, again, kind of looking at the data from the 15 seven-and-a-half ton, I think, kind of illustrates that 16 point. In that at the -- at TSL 1 and 2, there are 17 higher fan energy than the base. 18 And again, just as we're taking this analysis 19 into consideration here, realize that there's multiple 20 Variables, and there are design choices. And the models 21 that were selected, while valid, do have an impact here. 22 And there are various approaches that may or may not have 23 the same result. 24 MR. STARR: This is Louis Starr with NEEA. I 25 think with this test procedure and -- or rule making,

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 59 1 with all of them, you know, one of the -- Northwest is 2 pretty concerned or interested in that the test procedure 3 accurately reflects the real energy use. 4 I think more, kind of what this analysis shows, 5 is that the IEER is not reflective of maybe what the 6 actual energy use is in the real case. And I think -- I 7 think my focus coming away from this is that we need to 8 adjust that, that -- the IEER metric in the test 9 procedure to really more accurately reflect energy use in 10 how equipment is actually used in the field. 11 MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel with Mitsubishi. So 12 the test procedure was set up based on a building layout. 13 And there's an -- the external static pressure was based 14 on a certain amount of duct work for an area. So it's 15 not like this has not been thought out for the test. 16 And so you look -- I mean, if you look at 17 installations, there are a lot of rooftop units that are, 18 you know, like in big box stores where there is hardly 19 any external static pressure. There's no duct work 20 attached to them. So I mean, there's a wide spectrum of 21 usage. 22 So the test procedure, there was a great deal 23 of detail done to lay that out as more of a simple office 24 building. And I know this because when we did the test 25 standard for the VRF units, we had to take into

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 60 1 consideration refringent piping line links to use so that 2 we would have an equitable measurement for our systems. 3 So I think we just have to be cautious about 4 saying, you know, "Let's show what happens in the field." 5 Because, again, this is representative of a -- the test 6 procedure currently is representative of a simple field 7 layout. 8 MR. STARR: Well, I'm going to have to disagree 9 with that. I mean, so -- too bad Dick Lord's not here, 10 but all these PNNL models all had duct work. And 11 actually, they all had higher static pressures than they 12 were incurring in use in here. 13 While there are some units out there that 14 aren't connected up to duct work, I would say 95 percent 15 of them are connected up there. The .3 inch static 16 pressure is really just a reflection of getting the air 17 out of the unit. I mean, the filter, the coil, that's 18 what that static pressure represents. It doesn't really 19 represent the external -- 20 MS. HOOTMAN: It's external. It's external. 21 MR. STARR: The whole static pressure on that's 22 .3 for the fan or is it greater? 23 MS. HOOTMAN: The test procedure is external 24 static pressure, external to the unit. 25 MR. DOPPEL: And, again, that's -- as I was

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 61 1 saying, it's based on -- 2 MS. HOOTMAN: And .3 is representative -- hang 3 on, Paul. Jill Hootman, Trane. 4 That .3 is representative of concentric supply 5 and return. I was there and helped write this test 6 procedure. What I'm saying is, if you go up and now put 7 it into 1 inch, you are now not -- not testing one of 8 those units. 9 And as a manufacturer, I can literally make a 10 product line that all I do is concentric supply and 11 return. So now it will not be able to be tested to a 12 test procedure if you go up to 1 inch of static, because 13 now this product line was only designed for -- literally 14 designed for concentric supply and return. And I will 15 disagree with you on how much big box retailers are. 16 I was in Home Depot this weekend. I was in 17 Lowe's this weekend, and I was in K-Mart this weekend. 18 And guess what? All of them are concentric supply and 19 returns. And not all my equipment. And guess what? 20 They're all at about .3. So -- 21 MR. deLASKI: Just a -- didn't -- as a going-in 22 condition for this negotiation, the guidelines we were 23 set were that the test method was out of bounds. So -- 24 right? So let's -- I don't think we need to debate, you 25 know, or it's not a debate that was given -- that we are

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 62 1 charged with. 2 MR. RAMIREZ: All right. The question I have 3 for you all is, based on the discussion that you all had 4 and the questions that were raised, how does that impact 5 what Greg just provided to us? 6 MS. MEYERS: So this is Karen with Rheem. I 7 think it impacts it a lot. Just per Andrew's point, we 8 decided the test procedure was out of bounds. We're 9 calculating all the energy analysis outside of the test 10 procedure. So it affects everything. 11 MR. RAMIREZ: So what do we need to do, then? 12 MR. deLASKI: Yeah, I'll comment. This is 13 Andrew. So actually, I'm a little sort of disconcerted 14 by this sort of -- sort of list. You guys went out for a 15 caucus -- you guys went out for a caucus, and now you 16 came back with five or six issues assigned to different 17 spokespeople. And these are all issues we've discussed. 18 I mean, this is -- these aren't -- these aren't 19 new things. And we've been working through these issues 20 in meetings that we've had over the past several weeks. 21 The installed costs that Rusty raised, the lifetime 22 issues raised by Bob, the shipments issues that Jill's 23 raising, which we're going to hear more about, I think, 24 if we let the consultants do their presentation. You 25 called it retraction. I think you mean shipments.

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 63 1 Implication is the decline in shipments. Field versus 2 test conditions. You know, are we actually going to talk 3 about what happened to -- to -- in the install as opposed 4 to what happened in the test? And the specific units 5 analyzed. And this is what we've been talking about for 6 the -- several meetings. 7 MR. HURST: This is John Hurst from Lennox -- 8 MR. deLASKI: So the implication is that you 9 guys want to go back through all those things again? I 10 certainly hope not. I certainly hope -- I came to these 11 two meetings, today and tomorrow, with the hope that we 12 could fulfill our charge and begin to talk about, "Okay. 13 So what can we all agree to?" 14 And the analysis has evolved, as we all knew it 15 would evolve. There's been a lot of changes in response 16 to the input from this group. I think it's stronger now 17 than it was because of that input, and it provided the 18 basis for us to talk about what the parties can work with 19 in terms of levels and dates. And I would hope that we 20 would be able to move on to, you know, continue the 21 discussion on curbs. 22 So to answer your question, Javier, "Where does 23 that take us?" I hear the concerns, and you know, some 24 discomfort with the results. But they are what they are 25 at this point, and I would hope that we can let --

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 64 1 continue the discussion of the curbs that I think Detlef 2 is prepared to do. 3 Move to the shipments, which is, I think, based 4 on the data that AHRI provided last Wednesday. And then, 5 I would hope that we could use it as a basis to begin 6 talking about levels as we -- how we would this meeting. 7 MR. RAMIREZ: Thank you. Now, so with that, 8 let me give enough information to go through the curb 9 information. How much time do you need for that? 10 MR. WESTPHALEN: I don't think I need a whole 11 lot of time to present it. There may be questions and -- 12 MR. RAMIREZ: Well, so procedurally then, it's 13 quarter to 12:00. I'm sorry -- 14 MR. HURST: I was just going to say that, 15 Andrew, you're right. You did a very good summation of 16 kind of where we are. 17 The other thing that was left out, though. . . 18 the one other piece is from DOE Counsel. We still have a 19 number of questions that we would like answered which 20 would be very helpful and very productive to move these 21 negotiations forward. So we're waiting on that as well, 22 and I think that would be extremely helpful if we could 23 maybe get those answers shortly. 24 MR. RAMIREZ: And queue the mic. 25 MR. STAS: This is Eric Stas, DOE General

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 65 1 Counsel's office. Members of the Working Group have 2 raised certain concerns about how the Department might 3 react if presented with a consensus recommendation to 4 adopt regulations that included multiple metrics, use of 5 both a performance standard and a design standard, 6 phased-in standards, and alternative compliance dates. 7 While we would, of course, consider any consensus 8 Recommendation on its merits, and therefore, can't 9 predict how the Department would respond to a particular 10 recommendation, we think all of these approaches merit 11 continued discussion and encourage the Working Group to 12 negotiate a consensus recommendation. 13 As previously noted, DOEs has used similar 14 approaches in each of these areas when regulating 15 pursuant to its direct final rule authority. As you 16 know, for residential central air conditioners, we 17 adopted a dual metric, both SEER and EER. And for 18 dishwashers, we adopted a phased-in standard. 19 We encourage the Working Group to negotiate a 20 consensus recommendation, including one that may use any 21 or all of the concepts suggested in the questions. If 22 that occurs, and that recommendation is adopted by the 23 full ASRAC committee and presented to DOE, one option the 24 agency would consider is exercising its direct file rule 25 of authority, pursuant to 42 USC 6295(p)(4).

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 66 1 MR. RAMIREZ: John, does that help? 2 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yes. 3 MR. RAMIREZ: All right. So then with -- 4 MS. MEYERS: Could we -- 5 MR. RAMIREZ: We'll take your initial answer. 6 MS. MEYERS: So this is Karen with Rheem. And 7 just, you know, to be clear, if we could get a copy of 8 that. Because I certainly want to -- to coalesce with 9 AHRI's general counsel and my company's general counsel 10 to consider how we might respond to what you have just 11 said. 12 MR. STAS: I'll check and see what we can 13 distribute. 14 MR. RAMIREZ: I think you'll end up being in 15 the -- 16 MR. DOPPEL: It will be in the transcript. 17 MR. CYMBALSKY: It's on the transcript. 18 MS. MEYERS: Yeah, but the transcripts are 19 usually weeks behind. And we're trying -- we've got a 20 June 15th deadline. And we're all here trying to 21 negotiate, so we need to really understand what you said. 22 And I think, perhaps -- 23 MR. CYMBALSKY: I'm going to talk to the court 24 reporter at the break and we're going -- we'll do our 25 best to clip out his statement if that will be helpful.

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 67 1 MR. deLASKI: Eric, this is Andrew -- 2 MS. MEYERS: Will that be available when? 3 MR. CYMBALSKY: I'll try to get it and e-mail 4 it to everybody as soon as possible. 5 MS. MEYERS: Thank you. Thank you, John. 6 MR. deLASKI: Why don't we take a second now to 7 try to get clarity? 8 MR. CYMBALSKY: Ah, the clarity on legal. 9 MR. deLASKI: And what I heard you say -- and 10 I'll just say what I heard, is that -- is that the four 11 questions that we posed are that, that we should consider 12 all those items as items that we are encouraged to 13 consider, to consider those four pathways. And I see you 14 nodding. And that the agency has the direct final rule 15 authority, and that that may be the tool that you use. 16 MR. CYMBALSKY: That's what we've done in the 17 past. So if we get a consensus recommendation, then we 18 would carefully consider it. 19 MR. deLASKI: So Charlie and I were sort of 20 chatting just offline here, and the question came up: So 21 what would the process look like, then? 22 So what I would hypothesize -- and correct me 23 if I'm wrong -- is that the process would look like, we 24 come to a consensus; we vote it out of this committee, 25 this working group. The process, then, is that that

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 68 1 consensus is then presented to the parent committee, 2 ASRAC. 3 ASRAC has to approve that consensus. The 4 Department sits on ASRAC, as on its Working Group. And 5 then the Department is, under the terms of the Working 6 Group’s creation, is -- is obligated, or is -- what is 7 the term? 8 It's -- you've launched this process with the 9 purpose of coming up with a consensus. So if it's legal 10 and you have a pathway to do it, you're -- you've said 11 you'll adopt it. 12 Is that the right way to put it, John? 13 MR. CYMBALSKY: I think the subtlety here is 14 that Eric mentioned in his statement is the direct final 15 rule authority that he cited to. That might be important 16 here. 17 MR. deLASKI: Right, but -- 18 MR. CYMBALSKY: I'm not saying that's yes or a 19 no. I'm just saying, you know, reading between the lines 20 of what he said -- 21 MR. STAS: I mean, otherwise, I think your 22 process is very similar to any other negotiated rule 23 making where it has to go, just as you said, flow up 24 through the ASRAC committee. Otherwise, it's going to -- 25 MR. deLASKI: It's the same exact process we're

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 69 1 talking about whereas under the -- without the direct 2 final rule, what happened is that once we got the 3 consensus, you'd either issue a final rule or an SNOPR in 4 this case. In this case, you'd issue a direct final 5 rule. It's just a different -- 6 MR. CYMBALSKY: I think the difference that I 7 see is part of the negotiated framework. Instead of a 8 consensus that has been done outside of DOE's walls and 9 participation, is that -- and the reason we have Eric 10 here is that if we start negotiating something illegal, 11 you know, and come up with that, I would hope that Eric 12 would say, you know, "Don't negotiate something illegal." 13 Right? "Because we don't like that." Right? 14 And I think what -- what I heard, and this is 15 the first I'm hearing the statement from Eric, is that we 16 have all these tools to consider, and we should consider 17 them. That's what I heard. And I'm negotiating just 18 like the rest of you, so -- 19 MR. deLASKI: That's actually the best response 20 I could have hoped for. I mean, it's 4 for 4; 4 yeses is 21 the way I hear it. So -- and we, you know, I think that 22 gives us more latitude to be able to come up with good 23 results. 24 MR. RAMIREZ: All right. Then, just 25 procedurally, did we want to go into the curb

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 70 1 information, or did you want to break for lunch and then 2 go into the curb information? 3 MALE SPEAKER: Curb it. 4 MR. RAMIREZ: Curb the curb? So how much -- 5 wait a minute. Now, when you say, "curb it," you're 6 saying -- 7 MR. CYMBALSKY: Do the curb. 8 (Laughter.) (Simultaneous speaking.) 9 MR. RAMIREZ: I caught it, too. That's why I 10 asked. 11 MR. WESTPHALEN: Okay. Detlef Westphalen with 12 Navigant. I'll be presenting what little we have on the 13 engineering analysis for this meeting. So just an 14 overview of what we prepared for the engineering analysis 15 for this meeting. 16 MR. CYMBALSKY: Slide 12. 17 MR. WESTPHALEN: Starting with some very modest 18 changes to performance correlations to some of the 30-ton 19 models. 20 Last meeting, we discussed an approach to 21 address the trend of curb -- use of the curb adapters 22 with efficiency levels, and we showed analysis for the 23 small and the large classes. This time we're presenting 24 essentially the same analysis applied to the very large 25 class.

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 71 1 Then we have a few other points here. We 2 developed some thoughts on a definition for dual-duct, 3 and my understanding is that Carrier has prepared some 4 material there, as well. You know -- we can, you know, 5 do that after lunch if we want to. 6 We also, at the end of last meeting, promised 7 to send out information regarding the IEER differentials 8 associated with gas heat products and also the heat pump 9 products. So we sent that information out, and I just 10 have a one-slide summary on that in here. 11 And there was also a request -- you might have 12 seen my e-mail this morning -- to provide the component 13 wattage profile tables with the calculations in them so 14 that there can be some offline evaluation of the impact 15 on IEER of the indoor fan power changes. And so you have 16 that for the seven-and-a-half and 15, and we can talk 17 about that more later as well regarding what we do about 18 the 30-ton -- the very large class there. And finally, 19 no changes to the cost curves for this meeting. 20 So moving on to the curb adapter analysis. 21 Again, it's the identical approach that we took for the 22 small and the large classes. There were more nominal 23 capacities that we looked at to which we assigned the 24 shipments. And the chart at the bottom left there shows 25 the percentage shipments for the entire range of

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 72 1 capacities throughout all of the classes, and the table 2 shows those numbers. 3 Otherwise, we applied the same approach 4 regarding distribution of shipments amongst the 5 manufacturers represented at each nominal capacity. For 6 the very large class, we added another manufacturer. That 7 manufacturer had a little bit more representation than 8 one of the manufacturers we had for the small and large 9 classes. So we have five manufacturers that we're 10 looking at here for these curves. 11 And so the method we chose in order to decide 12 at what efficiency level it would be required to use an 13 adapter curb is the same as we used for the previous 14 analysis. And I'm not going to go through all of this 15 again, but the charts show essentially at what level the 16 different manufacturers would likely be forced to move to 17 a different -- a larger size, and thereby require an 18 adapter curb. 19 And so we have the six, seven, or eight slides 20 here -- and I'm not going to dwell on each -- but, 21 essentially showing that the unit base area and the IEER 22 associated with the various unit base areas for the 23 different manufacturers. And then, the table on the top 24 right shows the efficiency level at which the curb 25 adapters would be used for each of those manufacturers.

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 73 1 And so if you follow, for instance, 2 Manufacturer A, you see at a size of -- it's hard to see 3 with this scale here -- but something like 75 square foot 4 base area, having efficiency levels at about 10.6 and 5 about 11.7, then, when moving higher than that, would 6 jump to the larger size and require the curb adapter at 7 EL 2. 8 And as I said, I'm not going to go through each 9 of these slides and each of these manufacturers. You 10 could take a look at that at your leisure and comment on 11 whether we've selected the right IEER levels. 12 MR. WHITWELL: Detlef -- no, go ahead. 13 MS. MEYERS: I was just going to say, can you 14 walk me through this again? Because I'm -- so let's go 15 through Manufacturer A. 16 MR. WESTPHALEN: So Manufacturer A, you see -- 17 is that the red button? Oh, the mouse here. Okay. 18 That's what you were saying. All right. There we go. 19 So Manufacturer A -- let me get that so I can 20 see it here -- has a unit here at about 10.6, and a unit 21 here at about 11.7. And then going above that, you know, 22 at EL 2, which is the, you know, the low level at which 23 we decide to consider size increase and use of adapter 24 curbs at that level, that manufacturer would have to 25 increase size, and those units would require a curb

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 74 1 adapter. 2 Manufacturer B, you have a unit here, but at 3 10.05, and 10.9. These are all the same base areas, 4 12.1, then going up to 13.8, roughly. And so that 5 manufacturer would then require an increase in size, 6 going up to EL 4 here. 7 And the devil is in the details here. And so 8 you know, we spent some time deciding at which levels 9 each manufacturer would have to increase size. But, you 10 know, that's something that certainly is subject to 11 review by the committee. 12 MR. SACHS: Detlef, this is Harvey. As I 13 recall, you have discussed each manufacturer's data on 14 these charts with that manufacturer. 15 MR. WESTPHALEN: We have not specifically -- 16 MR. SACHS: Uh-huh, okay. Thank you. 17 MR. WESTPHALEN: -- discussed. No. 18 MS. HOOTMAN: Some of us can gather what -- 19 where we are on this, but it is the units that you've 20 used for the other part of the analysis, correct? 21 MALE SPEAKER: Well, it's more than that. 22 MR. WESTPHALEN: Yeah, you -- 23 MS. HOOTMAN: This is just the catalog data? 24 You went out and looked and cataloged data? 25 MR. WESTPHALEN: These are the units that we

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 75 1 also collected to develop the cost curves, for example. 2 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes, okay. Okay. 3 MR. deLASKI: Detlef, but this is the method 4 that you described in our meeting two weeks ago? 5 MR. WESTPHALEN: That's correct, yeah. 6 MR. deLASKI: And we discussed it that day. 7 And my recollection was that -- I mean, we're going to 8 discuss this more today, of course. But my recollection 9 is you got a lot of nods on this last time around and 10 went around, and you implemented what you got nods on 11 last time around. 12 MR. WESTPHALEN: Well, yeah. We took exactly 13 the same approach because we felt there was consensus 14 that it was an appropriate approach. 15 So this is the 25-ton, 27-ton, a few more 16 models here. 17 MR. WHITWELL: So Detlef, just move back to the 18 25-ton. So I mean, I understand what you did here and 19 agree with the approach based on what information you 20 have, but just would throw out there that I'm looking at 21 Manufacturer D. And at first, I didn't understand why 22 you picked EL 5 for that one, and then I saw there's a 23 point up at the top, right, that point up there, that's 24 doing it? 25 MR. WESTPHALEN: Yeah, so that one is already

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 76 1 at EL 4, so that you wouldn't require the adapter curb -- 2 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. 3 MR. WESTPHALEN: -- until you get to EL 5. 4 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, yeah. Okay. 5 MR. WESTPHALEN: So okay. 25, we have 27-ton, 6 and you notice that for this 27-ton nominal capacity, we 7 have fewer manufacturers represented. And for the cases 8 where there are fewer manufacturers represented, we just 9 split all of the shipments at that nominal capacity 10 between the two represented, for example. 11 So the Manufacturer A and D here would be more 12 strongly weighted than they would be for some of the 13 other capacities where there are more manufacturers 14 involved. 30-ton, 35, and you notice the base areas are 15 getting larger at the larger capacities. 16 40-ton, 45 we have -- we had just one 17 manufacturer represented. And for this -- the EL 2 for 18 that manufacturer is weighted 100 percent for those 19 shipments. 50-ton, 55, and then 60 was the top end of 20 the range that we looked at. 21 So using all these selections, we then added up 22 what percentage would be required to use an adapter curb 23 or would use an adapter curb at each of the candidate 24 efficiency levels. 25 And you remember, there was a baseline roughly

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 77 1 31 percent that would be using adapter curbs at EL 0 and 2 EL 1, and that 20 percent of the installations would be 3 new construction and would not be using adapter curbs. So 4 the chart would -- the maximum level would be 80 percent, 5 and then you have a distribution from roughly 31 percent 6 up to the -- it's not quite 80 percent, because there is 7 one example where a manufacturer would be able to attain 8 the EL 5 with the baseline size. 9 So this is what we have for the very large 10 class. Now, we changed the numbers slightly for the 11 small and the large, and the maximum difference here is 12 .3 percent. And the reason we did this was that when we 13 initially implemented the analysis, we considered some of 14 those higher efficiency level products that might not 15 have -- that might already have been at the larger base 16 size. 17 And so we kind of incorrectly assumed that 18 those would not require -- well, I shouldn't say 19 incorrectly. We didn't have enough information to know 20 whether those might already be at the size that would be, 21 you know, at a larger size of -- I have a feeling that 22 didn't go, you know, go over quite clear. 23 Basically, the numbers that we're showing now 24 shift a little bit towards the lower efficiency levels 25 because we're assuming in the analysis now that there's

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 78 1 nothing shipping out above EL 1. And it just simplifies 2 the analysis in the absence of information of exactly 3 what size we're talking about for some of the existing 4 products that might be out there that are -- that might 5 be at higher levels. 6 This chart shows the slightly modified numbers 7 for the large equipment. And these new values were used 8 in Greg's analysis. So that's what I have on the curbs. 9 MR. deLASKI: Detlef, one question for 10 clarification. This is Andrew. So in the last couple 11 slides there, you used the right-hand bar. Is that what 12 you're telling us? 13 MR. WESTPHALEN: Yeah, the revised, the blue 14 values -- 15 MR. deLASKI: Yeah, there was no initial -- you 16 haven't done this before, right, so -- 17 MR. WESTPHALEN: No, these are the small and 18 large that I presented last year -- oh, last year, last 19 meeting. 20 (Laughter.) 21 MR. deLASKI: Oh, okay. I got it. Thank you. 22 MR. WESTPHALEN: So if there are no questions 23 on that, the next topic is dual-ducts. And I don't know 24 if we want to hold on this and -- you know, I think, Bob, 25 since you worked on developing something for this, you

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 79 1 know, we would, you know, like to give you the floor 2 first on describing it. 3 MR. WHITWELL: Sure. I mean, I have three 4 slides so it might not take very long. If you want to go 5 forward and do it, we can. 6 MR. RAMIREZ: Everyone good with that? 7 MR. WHITWELL: Okay. 8 MR. WESTPHALEN: Is that it on the computer 9 already? 10 MR. WHITWELL: I heard this morning it sounded 11 like it's there, right. 12 MALE SPEAKER: I think he has it at the bottom. 13 MR. WHITWELL: Is it the first -- up at the 14 top? 15 MALE SPEAKER: Double duct. Yeah, you can 16 click that one. 17 MR. WHITWELL: Oh, looks like what I called it. 18 MALE SPEAKER: It could be already opened down 19 here. It's two -- looks like two. 20 MR. WHITWELL: Yep. Okay. So this is Bob 21 Whitwell from Carrier. At the last meeting, I was asked 22 to put together a draft for a product class definition 23 for double-ducted equipment. 24 So this first slide is just kind of showing 25 what one configuration of a double duct did. I actually

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 80 1 have two different configurations here: One is 2 horizontal, but we also can have vertical double-ducted 3 units. 4 So there is the horizontal version. Typically, 5 this would be installed in a ceiling plenum, for example. 6 And what's important here -- I'm going to walk up. No, I 7 can't do that because then -- 8 MALE SPEAKER: Well, you can -- you can take -- 9 MR. WHITWELL: -- you can't hear me. 10 So what's -- what's different about these units 11 is these would be ducted both on the indoor side, the 12 evaporator side, and the condenser side of an air 13 conditioning unit. 14 So this is the condenser section here. So the 15 air comes in here from outside, and then its got the coil 16 and the fan in here, and it's ducted out through the 17 other side. So they -- they typically would -- they 18 could operate, depending on the installation, they could 19 operate at zero external static all the way up to some 20 number that might be as high as 1 inch of external 21 static. 22 And in order to be able to do that, they have 23 -- typically, would have forward-curved centrifugal fans 24 in there to be able to deliver the higher static. And 25 they have higher horsepower motors in there, as well, to

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 81 1 deliver the higher static. 2 Also, since they are designed typically to go 3 in a ceiling plenum, they are somewhat space-constrained. 4 Typically these are less than 36 inches in height. So go 5 any higher, it can't fit in the ceiling plenum. So it's 6 somewhat of a space-constrained product as well. 7 This is an example of a vertical configuration 8 double-ducted. Similar to what you saw in the previous 9 one, except the components are arranged vertically. So 10 you can see the condenser section is on the bottom, and 11 then up on top would be the evaporator section. And it 12 shows the air inlet and outlet there on the right-hand 13 side of the unit. 14 Again, these, you know, okay. Over here. So 15 these are also indoor applications, space-constrained in 16 that they need to be able to fit through doorways in 17 order to be taken into a building and carried into a 18 machine room or into the basement or wherever this is 19 installed. So again, typically 36 inches or less in 20 width. 21 So this is a draft of the double-duct air 22 conditioner and heat pump definition. So non-weatherized 23 indoor construction can be installed as a single package 24 or a split. So if I go back to this slide, these are -- 25 can be designed or can be shipped based on customers

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 82 1 requirements so that it's split right about here. So you 2 have one section that has the condenser and the 3 compressor, and then the other section has the evaporator 4 coil and the fan. Same thing with these, it can be split 5 in this area so that they -- they can be installed as 6 single piece or splits. 7 MR. SACHS: Bob? 8 MR. WHITWELL: Yes? 9 MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs, just a clarification. 10 Are these typically done in that modular fashion so they 11 can be shipped and assembled, or are they typically -- 12 MR. WHITWELL: They're typically, either the 13 customer decides -- orders them as either a split or as a 14 single piece. 15 MR. SACHS: Well, let me try to refine my 16 question. Is there significant difference when you 17 manufacture that product? Are the two sections -- 18 MR. WHITWELL: They're essentially the same. 19 They're essentially the same, right. 20 MR. SACHS: Thank you. 21 MR. WHITWELL: Okay. So as I mentioned, space22 constrained to fit in the ceiling plenums and through 23 interior doorways. The horizontally-configured products 24 must be less -- 36 inches or less in height. And the 25 vertically-configured products are limited to 36 inches

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 83 1 in depth. 2 Cooling capacity range on these can be up to 3 240,000 BTU per hour for air-cooled condensers. In some 4 cases, these are supplied with water-cooled condensers. 5 But for this definition, I'm just looking at air-cooled 6 condensers. And then the important thing here is that 7 air over both the evaporator and the condenser coils is 8 ducted to and from the unit with field-supplied duct 9 work. 10 I thought about adding an external static 11 requirement on the outdoor, but I didn't know if that was 12 getting into the test procedure as opposed to a product 13 class definition, so I left that off here. But, it would 14 be -- I think the minimum is typically around two-tenths 15 of an inch. I mean, actually, they can go down to zero, 16 but it -- based on what I looked at for the standard 17 motor or the base motor, it looks like it would have up 18 to about two-tenths external static capability. And then 19 after that, you get into higher horsepower motors. 20 So that's all I have. It is a small class. 21 There's -- I know we manufacture -- we offer both the 22 horizontal and the vertical configuration. There are 23 maybe three or four other manufacturers that I'm aware 24 of. I think Navigant actually had a list of 25 manufacturers for a horizontal configuration.

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 84 1 MR. HUNT: Bob, this is Marshall Hunt, PG&E. 2 So what test standards do you guys have to use for this 3 equipment? 4 MR. WHITWELL: Well, currently, it's tested per 5 either AHRI 340/360 or 210/240 depending on the size. 6 MR. HUNT: Thank you. 7 MR. WHITWELL: Yep. Andrew? 8 MR. deLASKI: This is Andrew. Can you give us 9 a better sense of the -- you think the capacity is up to 10 240,000 BTUs per hour. Can you give us a feel for the -- 11 sort of where the meat of the market is? Is there -- 12 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. I think, based on -- I 13 can't speak for the whole industry, I can speak for -- 14 for my company. This -- currently we have two or three 15 sizes. This one goes up to 8-ton that we're currently 16 offering. We have offered larger in the past, but have 17 stopped offering those because of not being able to meet 18 efficiency standards. 19 This one currently goes up to 14-ton. Again, 20 this, we have offered up to 20-ton in the past, but we no 21 longer are, based on not being able to meet the latest 22 efficiency standard on this as well. 23 MR. deLASKI: And when you say not being able 24 to meet the standard, is there an engineering reason why 25 you weren't able to meet the standard? Or was that

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 85 1 because the existing products that you had didn't meet 2 the standard and you chose not to reengineer it? 3 MR. WHITWELL: Well, it's some of both. It's 4 some of both. But remember, there is some space 5 constraint on these products. So you can make it bigger. 6 You can't make them wider, and you can't make them 7 taller. And you get into some fit-up issues as you make 8 these units -- make these units bigger. 9 This one, the vertical one, for example, so you 10 don't -- can't make it wider or you can't get it fitted 11 through doors. If these are already -- these can be up 12 to 90 inches tall. So they will fit through an 8-foot 13 tall door, but to make them bigger then you wouldn't -- 14 it wouldn't fit. So I guess you could go in another 15 direction as well, but, you know, it just gets to be 16 quite large. 17 MR. deLASKI: And I'm not cutting you off, but 18 you said the vertical unit up to -- how many tons did you 19 say? 20 MR. WHITWELL: We have offered in the past, up 21 to 20. But today we're -- I believe we're limited to 14 22 or 15. 23 MR. deLASKI: I have a follow on, if you don't 24 mind. And I think in our earlier meeting when these 25 first came up, I think it came up one or a couple -- two

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 86 1 to three meetings ago, maybe one of our first meetings. 2 MR. WHITWELL: In the first meeting, John 3 mentioned that it was something that he wanted this group 4 to talk about. 5 MR. deLASKI: And I think at the time, someone 6 said -- it may have been you, you know, these things are 7 pretty expensive compared to -- 8 MR. WHITWELL: I don't know that I made that 9 comment. 10 MR. deLASKI: Okay. 11 MR. CYMBALSKY: This is John. I don't think 12 that was made, either. And I think from the discussion 13 we were going to tee up, we were -- we were really just 14 considering the horizontal units for this, not the 15 vertical. 16 MR. WHITWELL: There is some extra cost 17 associated with these, Andrew. Because typically 18 these... like an evaporator coil would be four or more 19 rows in order to fit it in -- within the space 20 constraint. So you're not -- it's not the optimal or 21 most efficient use of the material when you talk about 22 going to a deep versus a larger, less deep coil. So 23 there probably is some cost impact because of the design 24 and having to fit in that space. 25 Yes, I know. I think, John, you're right. The

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 87 1 original discussion may have been prompted by some 2 manufacturers who provided comments on the horizontal. 3 But I thought if we're -- since we're talking about it, 4 just to make it known that there are vertical 5 configurations that could fit the same type of 6 definition. 7 MR. SACHS: Bob, this is Harvey. And clearly, 8 I'm less concerned about national energy savings if this 9 is a product class which cannot get as high efficiency as 10 the standard package units if it doesn't have much 11 potential for growth. So clearly, it's a non-weatherized 12 unit, so it's not frequently going to be used to replace 13 an RTU. 14 MR. WHITWELL: No. 15 MR. SACHS: It -- I'm sort of curious where it 16 is conventionally being applied. Because it seems to me 17 that it's a good way to bring the noise closer to the 18 users of the building. 19 MR. WHITWELL: Definitely, it does that. 20 MR. SACHS: So where -- what kind of buildings 21 or uses of buildings seem to be getting these? Just so I 22 can have a hunch about whether it's an application that's 23 likely to be inherently sales limited or one that might 24 grow as loophole. 25 MR. WHITWELL: Well, I mean, these -- I think

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 88 1 in the horizontal one, a lot of them are retrofits. 2 They're buildings where these things had been installed 3 in the past. The sales volume is relatively low on these 4 things; these are not big sellers. They can be installed 5 in a variety of applications. Could be in an office, for 6 example, that's within a -- perhaps within a larger 7 space, right? Where you have the unit and you don't want 8 to discharge the heat into that space, you need to duct 9 it away outside of the building. 10 I can come back. Harvey, let me come back and 11 give you some more examples of these types of 12 installations. 13 MS. HOOTMAN: Bob, I'll add just a couple that 14 I know of. The horizontals would be put over a corridor. 15 So sometimes like classrooms or schools and over 16 corridors, you know, where they -- especially older 17 schools. And so the noise issue is not necessarily 18 there, but they're being able to retrofit those. 19 And also, this vertical one is used sometimes 20 in like old warehouse buildings where they become flea 21 markets or, you know, converted into something like that. 22 You know, where you didn't have roof structure to begin 23 with, you had a very light roof to -- 24 MR. WHITWELL: Right. That's a good point. 25 Roof structure, if you don't have it for a rooftop.

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 89 1 MR. SACHS: So this is Harvey. Again, clearly, 2 if -- if we're leaning toward a product class that would 3 allow a lower efficiency standard, those of us on the 4 advocate's side are principally concerned that it not be 5 something which has the potential for large growth in 6 sales volume paresthetizing the more-efficient RTUs. And 7 so I'm looking toward an understanding of that issue. 8 MR. deLASKI: Can you go back to your slide 9 where you had -- this is Andrew again -- where you had 10 your -- this one. 11 Right, so I think this is where you, you know, 12 would have to come up to a definition, turn this into a 13 definition that will give you comfort that people aren't 14 going to take this thing and put it on a roof -- 15 MR. WHITWELL: So it's non-weatherized, indoor 16 construction. Right, so that was one of the key things 17 that I wanted to get in here because we don't want people 18 to apply this to rooftops, right? 19 The other thing, and I mentioned if we -- I 20 don't know if we can -- but if we could apply some 21 requirement for an external static pressure on the 22 condenser side, that could also possibly help there. 23 MR. SACHS: That's very appealing to me. You 24 said that the units on the market today are typically 25 centrifugal fans to support the SP, and I hate to get

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 90 1 into a prescriptive requirement for centrifugals, but I 2 sure would like to see something that assures that lower 3 efficiency is justified by an inherent performance 4 feature. 5 MR. WHITWELL: And yeah, I saw -- I looked 6 ahead and Detlef, I saw that Navigant had some proposals 7 that included external static pressure, or at least you 8 were listed -- you listed some external static pressure, 9 right? 10 MR. WESTPHALEN: Yeah. This is Detlef. We did 11 some research to see, you know, what are the maximum 12 heights on these horizontal units and also the ranges of 13 external statics, and we had some other thoughts and 14 subtleties regarding the definition that, you know, may 15 be worth discussing. 16 MR. WHITWELL: Okay. Do you want to put yours 17 Up, and we'll kind of merge? 18 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yeah, that's great. And thank 19 you, Bob. I appreciate you actually tackling that. 20 And I think we can -- for those in the room, 21 slide 31 will -- let's just jump there. 22 MR. WESTPHALEN: Well, I think it might be 23 useful to start with 28. 24 MR. CYMBALSKY: So I think the first 25 distinction here is that when we initially thought about

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 91 1 this -- "this," being DOE -- we were just considering the 2 horizontal units, not the verticals. 3 MR. WESTPHALEN: Yeah, and we -- why don't I go 4 up there? It would be easier. 5 MR. WHITWELL: And that -- I agree with that. 6 But like I said, as we were -- as I was looking at this 7 and working with some of the folks within the company, we 8 realized that we have -- there are vertical products that 9 really have similar -- very similar requirements or 10 characteristics. 11 MR. CYMBALSKY: And obviously we're open to 12 discussing those. 13 MR. WESTPHALEN: Right. We noticed that there 14 are horizontal, horizontal splittable, vertical, single 15 package, and vertical splittable. And so as John 16 mentioned, we focused on the horizontal, whether or not 17 splittable. 18 We thought about the single package vertical 19 and thought, "Well, don't we already have a single 20 package vertical unit class?" And, you know, if it's a 21 single package and not splittable, is that -- is the 22 product that you're thinking about any different from the 23 single package vertical unit class? 24 MR. WHITWELL: We -- technically, if we read 25 the definition, the vertical packaged air conditioner

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 92 1 heat pump, yes, we could -- we do fit -- those vertical 2 units can fit in that definition as well, so -- 3 MR. SACHS: I'm confused. This happens a 4 couple of times a session. This is Harvey. 5 My memory was that the SPVU as a product class 6 was small stuff you hang on the end of a portable 7 classroom. 8 MR. WHITWELL: And that's why we don't sell our 9 product as that. But if you read the product, the 10 definition of that product class, the vertical unit that 11 we offer could fit -- it could -- could meet that 12 definition. 13 MR. SACHS: But the -- and that's what I'm 14 trying to support. Because that SPVU is a separate 15 product class today, if I understand it correctly, as 16 essentially zero static on the condenser side because 17 it's just hung on the outside or the outside wall of a 18 small installation. They're also small units 19 capacity-wise, some of them serrated. Are we talking 20 about something different from that? 21 MR. WESTPHALEN: Well, the definition for SPVU 22 does allow for interior installation adjacent to the 23 exterior wall. And that's -- that's what this type of a 24 unit... 25 MALE SPEAKER: (Inaudible.)

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 93 1 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, it could be zero static, 2 right. Harvey, you're right. 3 MR. WESTPHALEN: But, you know, our question 4 was: Okay. Well, how would a double-duct single package 5 vertical unit necessarily be any different from the 6 existing single package vertical unit class that we have? 7 MR. SACHS: What I'm hearing is that -- and 8 this is Harvey -- is that the difference is that it must 9 have a significant ESP to support the condenser side duct 10 work. 11 MR. WESTPHALEN: Okay. I mean -- 12 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, I think that could be part 13 of the definition, absolutely. 14 MR. WESTPHALEN: Okay. So in our looking at 15 this issue, we separated out the single package vertical 16 units and, you know, maybe in the discussion, we can 17 bring them back in with some specific requirements. We 18 saw some of these horizontal units that seemed to be 19 clearly marketed for computer room applications. And 20 we're aware that they're a computer room unit -- computer 21 room air conditioners, so they have a separate class. So 22 we didn't consider those. 23 And so we still have left the vertical unit 24 with a split configuration, which, we didn't specifically 25 look at in what we were doing here, but certainly could

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 94 1 be put back on the table if that is in the interest of 2 the committee. That's the last bullet there. 3 So then this chart shows some of the -- the 4 vertical dimension data for some of these horizontal 5 units. It shows five different brands there. And Bob 6 mentioned 36 inches, but what's on the market isn't any 7 higher than, like, 33 and a third. 8 And then we also looked at the external static 9 pressure ranges. These are the units that we found for 10 which we could get this information, and the standard 11 configurations all are capable of at least .2 static, 12 which is the same number Bob mentioned 13 MR. HUNT: Marshall Hunt, PG&E. Do we have 14 shipment data from AHRI on these? Could we get it? 15 MR. WESTPHALEN: Not that I'm aware of. 16 MR. HUNT: Back to -- how big is this elephant? 17 If we don't think it's going to grow and it's small now, 18 then it makes things a lot easier. 19 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, I think it would be 20 difficult to get AHRI data on this because I think, only 21 two AHRI members produce what’s up here, and we -- we 22 can't report that. 23 MR. HUNT: Thank you. 24 MR. SACHS: But what's really nice -- Harvey 25 again -- on slide 30, is looking at the last column:

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 95 1 "Maximum outdoor static pressure." With the exception of 2 the two units from this little outfit from Syracuse, all 3 of these are at 1.0 or higher ESP. But this says we can 4 use a significant ESP as part of the product definition, 5 and that will avoid confusion with the smaller SPVUs of 6 the portable classroom type. 7 MR. WESTPHALEN: That's a possibility, yeah. 8 MR. SACHS: So thank you, Detlef. 9 MR. WESTPHALEN: Well, if somebody has one of 10 these units and says, "Okay,” I'm going to put my 11 standard configuration on it," and we define it based on 12 1-inch external. Then we're back to the question of: 13 What is it? 14 Or for example, if we said -- if we said it has 15 to be able to deliver 1-inch external on the outdoor air 16 side, then the Carrier unit is not one of these. 17 MR. SACHS: David just corrected me that I 18 really was looking at the maximum outdoor static pressure 19 instead of the outdoor static pressure which is one 20 column over. 21 MR. WHITWELL: Right. 22 MR. SACHS: But nonetheless, I think that 23 offers the potential for using, as a working hypothesis 24 that ought to be disproved, the potential for using an 25 ESP requirement as a differentiator.

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 96 1 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, one thing that we need to 2 keep in mind, though, is if we do impose an external 3 static pressure requirement on this, the efficiencies 4 tested that way would be lower than where they are today, 5 right? So we would have to think about coming up with 6 some other level. 7 MR. SACHS: Point well-taken. I think that 8 would be part of the process of establishing a reason for 9 separate product classes. And I'm looking at the 10 parallel of the small-diameter, high-velocity residential 11 equipment where -- and that may or may not be an 12 appropriate analogy. 13 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yeah, I guess -- let's go to 14 the next slide, and hopefully, this could narrow what -- 15 MR. WESTPHALEN: Yeah. I think -- one thing, 16 sorry to keep bugging you on this, but -- 17 MR. CYMBALSKY: You're killing me. 18 MR. WESTPHALEN: But I think that this, you 19 know, bottom half of this page which introduced the 20 topic, you know, suggested approach. What are we trying 21 to do with this? I think, it’s probably worth talking 22 about a little bit. 23 First of all, you know, the suggested approach 24 involves developing a definition to clearly identify 25 these units so it's clear that, you know, you have one of

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 97 1 these in front of you or maybe you do a little bit of 2 tests to figure out what its external static pressure is 3 on the outdoor side. You know, I know it's one of these, 4 and it's not one of those. 5 Then, if we can come up with such a definition, 6 the approach would be to exclude them from consideration 7 of the increased stringency levels that we're discussing 8 as part of this Working Group. And what that would mean 9 is that they would retain the existing EER standard 10 levels that, you know, that currently they're covered. 11 And at an appropriate time, modify the test 12 procedures to adopt, perhaps, IEER and to accurately 13 reflect the typical operation -- for instance, the ducted 14 condenser. And then, also in future, consider whether 15 there's any room for improvement. 16 So with that in mind, the only thing we're 17 trying to do at this point is, you know, the first 18 sub-bullet here, which is the definition. And so these 19 are some of the points that we put in our thinking. 20 First of all, it's air-cooled, commercial 21 packaged air conditioning and heating equipment, and 22 that, in itself, puts it in a certain category initially. 23 Then, we didn't include the weatherized. We could -- 24 with the non-weatherized, we could consider adding that, 25 but what became a little bit unclear to me is, well, what

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 98 1 does that mean, really? I mean, what are the specific 2 attributes that make it weatherized? 3 MR. WHITWELL: Well, I mean, when I use the 4 "non-weatherized" term, I'm talking about a unit that's 5 designed for only indoor installation. 6 MR. WESTPHALEN: But if I have this unit in 7 front of me on the floor, you know, and I say it's 8 weatherized and you say it's non-weatherized, you know, 9 how do we reconcile that? 10 MR. WHITWELL: Well, it would be part of the 11 manufacturers specifications, right? 12 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. 13 MR. WHITWELL: I mean, if it's weatherized, 14 you're qualifying it so that it can be out in the rain. 15 MS. HOOTMAN: Rain, salt, spray. You know, you 16 have a completely different look and your paint, your 17 galvanized metal, et cetera, if it's going out in the 18 weather than if it's going indoors. It doesn't have to 19

-- 20 MR. deLASKI: This is Andrew. Sometimes in 21 definitions, we've used the term -- at least when we've 22 written them for legislation design, they're “marketed.” 23 Maybe there are industry standards that determine -- are 24 there industry standards that determine what's 25 weatherized?

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 99 1 MR. THARP: UL1995 has the specific 2 requirements. If you qualify it for indoor use only, you 3 have to put that on the rating plate. If it's qualified 4 for outdoor use only, you have to put that on the rating 5 plate. So if you look at the product rating plate, it 6 will say "Outdoor Use Only. Indoor Use Only." 7 MR. deLASKI: Do you have to -- this is Andrew 8 again -- would that typically be something that is 9 manufactured for use outdoors? Is it going to be rated 10 -- or certified to that UL standard? 11 MR. THARP: Presently, that's -- you only have 12 two choices: UL1995 or UL60335 2-40. 13 MR. deLASKI: So we could potentially use one 14 of those standards. 15 MR. WESTPHALEN: Okay. 16 MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel. Just for 17 clarification of language, it wouldn't be certified to 18 UL1995, it would be evaluated by -- 19 MS. HOOTMAN: Listed -- 20 MR. DOPPEL: Yeah, it would be listed -- 21 evaluated, and then listed. 22 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, but it could be UL -- it 23 could be listed by UL, ETL, CSA, et cetera. But it's 24 evaluated per the UL1995 test procedure standard. 25 MR. WESTPHALEN: And then that's required to be

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 100 1 clearly marked on the nameplate so that there's no 2 question. 3 Okay. The first point here reflects one of 4 your points, Bob, maybe a single package or a split unit. 5 Item 2 here basically describes what I see is, all right, 6 you have to duct the air in and out of this thing. How 7 can we describe that in a way that a typical rooftop unit 8 could not apply? And -- 9 MR. WHITWELL: Well -- 10 MR. WESTPHALEN: And then, so basically saying, 11 has an outdoor section with an outdoor airflow path from 12 an inlet having provisions for duct connections on one 13 face so you couldn't have, you know, around-the-corner 14 kind of inlet the way you might have for a rooftop unit 15 through the unit to an outlet also having provisions for 16 duct connection on the same or another face of the unit. 17 MR. SACHS: I don't -- this is Harvey. I don't 18 mean to be nitpicking, but when you said "outdoor 19 section," the visualization is of something that is 20 outdoor, particularly with a split. 21 On the other hand, if you say it has a 22 condenser section, then it becomes a little bit awkward 23 in terms of the heat pump version. 24 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, I ran into the same issue. 25 So perhaps we could say condenser and then parentheses,

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 101 1 operating as an air conditioner -- or in air conditioner 2 mode. Something like that. 3 MR. WESTPHALEN: Or parentheses: Outdoor coil. 4 MR. WHITWELL: Well, yeah, but then it comes 5 back to Harvey's concern is -- it's the outdoor air flows 6 across it, but it's still -- it's an indoor unit, right? 7 It's totally indoor. 8 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. And if you go back 9 to Bob's original definition of a non-weatherized unit, 10 that carries with it the meaning that this thing is 11 installed indoors, and the condensing in air conditioning 12 mode coil is connected on both ends to outdoor air. So I 13 -- that's one reason I like the non-weatherized if it's 14 tight enough language. 15 MR. WESTPHALEN: Okay. The third point here 16 brings in the external static pressure and using a .2, 17 which is a level that is advertised as being achievable 18 by all of the units we saw. And then we settled on a 19 maximum height of 34 inches based on the data that we 20 saw. 21 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. In my analysis, 34 was 22 the current height. I just didn't know if we needed to 23 limit it to the 34 or if we could give some extra leeway, 24 but I'd be fine with 34 on the horizontal configuration. 25 MR. SACHS: Again, this is Harvey, and I hate

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 102 1 to sound like an ally of Bob's, but it seems to me that 2 this is easily generalized to include the verticals as 3 well. Just as for A and B, a maximum height of 34 inches 4 or maximum width of 34 inches. 5 And then you -- vertical, you know, paren, 6 vertical. And then you're covering both in some way. 7 Yeah, that's all it would take to make it both the 8 vertical and the horizontal types, I believe. 9 MR. WESTPHALEN: Yep. Well, do we want to have 10 somebody recraft that over lunch, and then -- 11 MR. SACHS: I nominate Bob and Detlef. 12 (Laughter.) 13 MR. WHITWELL: Okay. I'm willing to work with 14 Detlef on it. So the only question I have -- and John, 15 this is probably for you. 16 So if we put in here that it has the external 17 static pressure of at least .2 inches, is that how, then, 18 it would be tested? Or would it -- would that be 19 something that we would work on and in the next step when 20 we -- we write a test procedure for it? 21 MR. CYMBALSKY: Someone's telling me yes. So 22 I'm going to say yes. 23 MR. WHITWELL: Yes to which? 24 MR. CYMBALSKY: The last part. 25 MR. WHITWELL: So for now, it could continue to

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 103 1 be tested in a free blow situation. And then as we work 2 to move to an IEER -- 3 MR. CYMBALSKY: With the update of the test 4 method, yeah. Being consistent with our test procedures, 5 not part of. 6 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, okay. Good. 7 MR. SACHS: Well, then I have a question -- 8 it's Harvey. Are we also, then, including a prescriptive 9 requirement that it meet its maximum airflow with an ESP 10 of .2 inches, meaning, it's rated -- at the rated outdoor 11 airflow rate, it still can stand up to .2 inches of ESP? 12 MR. WESTPHALEN: Well, just speaking to why the 13 rated outdoor airflow rate is in there, the ESP, by 14 itself, doesn't necessarily tell the whole story. 15 MR. SACHS: I'm sorry. What I'm trying to 16 drive at, I've been clumsy in my wording, is I want item 17 3 to be part of the definition, but I am not asking that 18 that fan penalty be added to the EER rating now used. 19 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah -- 20 MR. SACHS: That's what I'm trying to get at. 21 MR. WHITWELL: -- but it would have to deliver 22 the rated airflow at -- 23 MR. SACHS: Right, right. 24 MR. WHITWELL: -- at two inches external 25 static.

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 104 1 MR. SACHS: But that's not part of the EER 2 until we migrate to an IEER. 3 MR. WHITWELL: Right. Okay. 4 Yeah, so exactly the way Detlef has it written 5 up there. That's what you want, yep. 6 MR. WESTPHALEN: Well, thinking about it, I 7 wonder if Harvey has a point that if you're rating it in 8 free blow, you've got more rated airflow than it 9 necessarily will be able to move when it's operating 10 against .2. 11 MR. WHITWELL: But you have options -- motor 12 options that would allow it to run at least two inches of 13 static of the rated airflow, right? 14 I mean, there -- these -- I have to check to 15 see if it could do this, but I think the concept is good. 16 We just would have to look and see if with the motor 17 options we could still meet the two-tenths of an inch 18 external static pressure with an optional motor and the 19 rated airflow. 20 Because, I think, Harvey, you're suggesting it 21 could be with an optional motor to get there? 22 MR. SACHS: I think you're giving me too much 23 credit. What I'm trying to do is to disturb the EER test 24 as little as possible as long as we're rating it on EER. 25 And I think I have to leave it to you and Detlef to

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 105 1 figure out how to do that so we have a product which -- 2 whose testing and certification costs don't overwhelm its 3 value. 4 MR. STARR: This is Louis with NEEA. I would 5 suggest that you maybe look at the fan curve to see how 6 that would effect the flow and things with the static 7 pressure to see -- 8 MR. WHITWELL: We're not going to do that 9 today. 10 (Laughter.) 11 MR. WESTPHALEN: Okay. So I think we're done 12 with this. Bob and I will discuss over lunch. 13 Do we want to stop there at -- 14 MR. RAMIREZ: Thanks, Detlef. 15 All right. So Detlef and Bob have been 16 voluntold to take another draft at the -- 17 MR. WHITWELL: Sorry, sorry for interrupting. 18 But Detlef, can we do it maybe immediately after the 19 meeting today rather than at lunch? 20 MR. WESTPHALEN: Oh, sure. Sure. 21 MR. WHITWELL: I think maybe we have some other 22 things we need to talk about at lunch. 23 MR. WESTPHALEN: That's fine. 24 MR. WHITWELL: Okay. Thanks. 25 MR. RAMIREZ: All right. So then we'll just

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 106 1 throw that onto the agenda for the morning, then? 2 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. 3 MR. RAMIREZ: Then 2:00 o'clock? It's 1:30. 4 Well, it's -- I think it's 12:30? Oh, I see. Okay. 2:00 5 o'clock return. You all good with that? 6 MR. SACHS: 2:00 o'clock start would be better 7 than -- 8 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. You got it. All right. 9 We'll start up at 2:00 o'clock. Thank you. 10 (Lunch recess was taken.) 11 MR. BANTLE: Okay. Looks like we have everyone 12 back in the room. It's a little after 2:00, but great 13 job getting back. Ted Bantle with FMCS. 14 Any comments or questions from -- on the 15 dual-ducts or anything else we discussed before lunch 16 before we pass it back to Detlef? 17 MS. MEYERS: Well, this is Karen with Rheem. 18 And I just wanted to put out there, A: Are we going to 19 be able to get a copy of that language? 20 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yeah. So this is John from 21 DOE. So when he's done today, he sends the transcript 22 off, and the court reporter's going to clip out the 23 language and e-mail it to me. Eric and I are going to 24 review it tonight to make sure that the language is going 25 to be exactly what's going to be in the final transcript

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 107 1 that you'll see in days or weeks. And then we will 2 disseminate that tomorrow. That's the plan. 3 MS. MEYERS: Well -- 4 MR. STAS: And one little correction. I had 5 one word misspoken. When I gave the example for the 6 phased-in standards, I said "dishwashers." I meant to 7 say "clothes washers." So it will say "dishwashers" in 8 there, but this is now in the transcript correcting it. 9 MS. MEYERS: Okay. Thank you. 10 So the industry has been caucusing for weeks on 11 a possible proposal that we could put to the group. We've 12 been waiting on, you know, some type of response to the 13 legal questions. So we need that really before we can, 14 you know, go forward. So thank you for trying to get 15 that out tonight. 16 But, you know, based upon some of the 17 information we've heard this morning which, you know, 18 from our point of view was a little disconcerting, we're 19 going to go back and take another look at what we were 20 thinking about putting out on the table. 21 We think we really need to go through this 22 next, the shipment analysis and the INPV and everything 23 like that and then get that language. And I think that 24 may cause us to make a few tweaks in what the proposal 25 was that the industry really wants to put out on the

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 108 1 table. 2 So I just -- I mean, everyone's kind of 3 wondering about all of that. And so I just wanted to, 4 you know, give the entire working group kind of an update 5 on what the industry -- where the industry is at. So you 6 know, so hopefully if we can get that out tonight then, 7 you know, perhaps we can get you something out in the 8 morning. 9 But, you know, we are -- we are very anxious to 10 also get this since we're running out of daylight really 11 quickly on this issue to get something moving forward. So 12 that's where the industry's at. 13 MR. deLASKI: Karen, this is Andrew. Thank you 14 for that. And thank you -- I'm glad to hear you guys 15 have been working on developing a proposal. 16 So you know, I think for advancing the 17 conversations, we've all got to put some proposals on the 18 table. So the fact that you guys have some creative 19 thoughts -- at least what I presume will be some creative 20 thoughts given some of the ideas that have been proposed 21 to the Department -- as potential legal pathways. 22 I'm wondering, you know, we did designate this 23 meeting as a meeting in which we would get some -- start 24 talking about potential outcomes, potential positions and 25 levels. So I think, you know, getting to that tomorrow

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 109 1 is essential. 2 I'm wondering -- I mean, what if -- I mean, 3 Eric's statement wasn't very long, and we certainly could 4 -- you guys are going to have a hard copy tomorrow. I 5 guess I'm asking, what's the barrier to being able to 6 present your proposal? What's the potential barrier? 7 I know you're not -- because you're suggesting 8 you may be able to put one out tomorrow, but you're not 9 so sure, so -- 10 MS. MEYERS: But we really want to go through 11 the shipment analysis and the INPV, based upon what we 12 saw in the engineering analysis. And then, you know, 13 quite frankly, I want some other attorneys from our side 14 to take a look at the statement that Eric made and just 15 make sure that, you know, we're all in sync and we have a 16 clear understanding of what the Department has stated. 17 So it's a check -- it's a check and balance 18 thing. So that's just, you know, we just don't want to 19 put something out there and find out maybe we didn't 20 understand something quite as clearly as we thought we 21 did. 22 MR. deLASKI: Sure. Okay. Fair enough. 23 MR. RAMIREZ: So just procedurally, to see 24 about trying to use the time as most effectively as 25 possible, I think we're scheduled for 8:00 o'clock start

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 110 1 tomorrow, correct? 2 Would you need a little bit more time in the 3 morning so that we could possibly have something, even if 4 we start a little bit later, but we start off with a -- 5 an actual proposal? 6 MS. HOOTMAN: So I guess it depends on how late 7 or when we get the thing from legal and that we can talk 8 to our attorneys. I guess if, you know, I don't have it 9 in my inbox until 8:00 in the morning or 7:00 in the 10 morning, you know, it gets a little hard. So -- 11 MR. deLASKI: I mean, I thought the statement 12 was really straightforward. So I'm kind of perplexed as 13 to what you're -- I understand your lawyers don't think 14 it's straightforward until they see it, right? 15 MS. HOOTMAN: That's exactly right, Andrew. 16 It's just getting it to them, you know. 17 MR. deLASKI: I understand. I'm just 18 wondering, like, Eric, if you read it slowly, can we just 19 type it out as you read it? It was only three or four 20 sentences. 21 MALE SPEAKER: We didn't know that it was going 22 to be a statement and that we were not going to be able 23 to copy it. And that's -- 24 MR. STAS: If the group would like me to reread 25 the statement and slowly, I can do that.

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 111 1 MR. deLASKI: I'm just trying to move things 2 along, so if it really is just a matter of getting things 3 into the lawyer's hands, just read it slowly and, I mean, 4 we can type it. 5 MR. DOPPEL: Can we record it as you read it? 6 MR. deLASKI: Oh, interesting question. 7 MALE SPEAKER: It's being recorded already. 8 MR. DOPPEL: Well, but I mean, so we can play 9 it back. 10 MR. deLASKI: You're supposed to ask for 11 forgiveness, not permission. 12 MR. STAS: Well, I don't really sound very good 13 on tape. So why don't I -- shall I read it again? Would 14 that help everyone? 15 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. Eric, really, 16 seriously slowly because I think a number of us will try 17 to write it down. 18 MR. CYMBALSKY: We're going to see if he's got 19 a good Smartphone. 20 MALE SPEAKER: You mean if I'm smart with my 21 good phone. 22 MR. CYMBALSKY: There are more smartphones than 23 smart people; I've made the statement before. 24 MR. STAS: Okay. Members of the Working Group 25 have raised certain questions about how the Department

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 112 1 might react if presented with a consensus recommendation 2 to adopt regulations that might include multiple metrics, 3 use of both a performance standard and a design standard, 4 phased-in standards, and alternative compliance dates. 5 While we would, of course, consider any 6 consensus recommendation on its merits and, therefore, 7 can't predict how the Department would respond to a 8 particular recommendation, we think all of these 9 approaches merit continued discussion and encourage the 10 Working Group to negotiate a consensus recommendation. As 11 previously noted, DOE has used similar approaches in each 12 of these areas when regulating pursuant to its direct 13 final rule authority. 14 As you know, for residential central air 15 conditioners, we adopted a dual metric, both SEER and 16 EER, and for clothes washers, we adopted a phased-in 17 standard. We encourage the Working Group to negotiate a 18 consensus recommendation, including one that may use any 19 or all of the concepts suggested in the questions. If 20 that occurs and that recommendation is adopted by the 21 full ASRAC Committee and presented to DOE, one option the 22 agency would consider is exercising its direct final rule 23 authority, pursuant to 42 USC 6295(p)(4). 24 MR. deLASKI: Thanks, Eric. Hopefully that 25 will expedite legal review.

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 113 1 MR. RAMIREZ: So with that in mind, what do you 2 all think as far as timing for tomorrow? 3 MS. MEYERS: Well, just -- I'll suggest we 4 start at 9:00. 5 MR. RAMIREZ: Everyone okay with that? 6 All right. I don't -- 7 MR. SACHS: The other way to -- this is Harvey. 8 The other way to parse that would say: How quickly can 9 we finish up with the shipments analysis so you guys can 10 work on getting the transcript started so their guys can 11 look at the -- 12 MR. CYMBALSKY: So I think what we just did 13 hopefully is in lieu of the longer process, right? 14 MR. SACHS: Everybody happy? 15 MR. CYMBALSKY: I think you hopefully got what 16 you needed from the seven-minute -- 17 MR. SACHS: Well, I'm happy to sleep in and 18 come at 9:00. 19 MR. CYMBALSKY: As am I. 20 MR. RAMIREZ: All right. So then we'll start 21 tomorrow at 9:00 o'clock. 22 MR. CYMBALSKY: And it is not in this room. So 23 just, you know, 1E-245 is the room number. So basically 24 it's right below us, but on the first floor. So you 25 don't have to get in the elevator.

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 114 1 MALE SPEAKER: 1E-245? 2 MR. CYMBALSKY: Right. It's just below us on 3 the first floor tomorrow. So 9:00 o'clock, not 8:00. 4 MR. deLASKI: So this is Andrew. Just raising 5 that, I think our stop time tomorrow is 3:00. And I know 6 that I, for one, have a flight, and these others have 7 flights, too. So that's a firm stop from my perspective. 8 And I don't know how much time we're going to need this 9 afternoon to go through the remaining material, and just 10 wondering a bit, is, is if -- do you need that caucus 11 time tomorrow morning or is time this afternoon 12 sufficient to potentially meet your caucus needs? Or do 13 you need time in the morning? In other words, you won't 14 be able to move that caucus time to this afternoon if -- 15 MR. THARP: Andrew, Rusty Tharp from Goodman. 16 I'm looking to have some conversation with some internal 17 counsel and would need this afternoon to have that 18 discussion. 19 MR. deLASKI: And then get back with your 20 colleagues tomorrow? 21 MR. THARP: (Inaudible) caucus in the morning. 22 MR. deLASKI: Okay. Fair enough. 23 MR. BANTLE: Okay. I think we'll pass it back 24 to Detlef for your final slide, and then we can move on 25 to shipments.

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 115 1 MR. WESTPHALEN: This might be quick. So last 2 time I started the discussion about the IEER 3 differentials between the no heat, electric heat units 4 which are the basis of the efficiency level values that 5 we used for the analysis and the products with gas heat 6 or the heat pumps. And we had done -- Navigant had done 7 some review of ratings, and we sent out some information 8 at the end of that week. So that was Friday a week ago. 9 And so I just wanted to summarize. The data 10 review averages are the last column in this table. And 11 the first two columns are the ASHRAE 90.1 before January 12 1st, 2016 -- as of January 1st, 2016. Since then, I 13 guess Jim del Toro of Carrier requested that we provide 14 the component wattage profile spreadsheets with the 15 calculated IEER values with the degradations and 16 interpolations, et cetera. And we provided that for the 17 seven-and-a-half and 15-ton this morning. 18 And there was potentially a question of what 19 would we do about the 30-ton analyses in order to provide 20 that for the working group. And I think the objective 21 there was to be able to -- on the fly -- look at 22 different levels of indoor fan power to see how that 23 might affect the IEER level to conjecture if there was an 24 additional amount of fan power associated with gas heat, 25 for instance. What kind of an IEER differential would

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 116 1 that really entail? 2 So these numbers are here just for information, 3 but that issue about the 30-ton certainly is something 4 that I just want to be responsive to if there's a way we 5 can move forward with that or if that's something that is 6 still of interest in order to provide to the group. 7 MR. RAMIREZ: Detlef, I'm going to ask you to 8 repeat that because I think maybe some folks are probably 9 still finishing up some of the other stuff. So I wanted 10 to make sure that that offer didn't go unnoticed. 11 MR. WESTPHALEN: Okay. So the question is, you 12 know, this morning I provided the component wattage 13 profile spreadsheets with calculations embedded for 14 seven-and-a-half and 15 tons. 15 And for 30-ton, we're reluctant to release that 16 unless the manufacturers whose units are involved are 17 okay with releasing that to the group. And that's 18 something that, you know, we perhaps don't have to 19 resolve right here before we move on to the rest of the 20 material for today, but maybe we can table it and discuss 21 it offline and come back to it tomorrow. 22 MR. deLASKI: This is Andrew, Detlef. And I 23 may have lost the thread here, but -- I have lost the 24 thread. What are folks using the embedded wattage profile 25 for? Is it related to this, or are you doing it for a

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 117 1 different question? 2 MR. WESTPHALEN: It's related because Jim at 3 Carrier wanted to use that to try to make conjectures 4 about, suppose I put in a gas furnace, and my indoor fan 5 uses X amount additional power, what does that do to my 6 IEER? And to have those example units on hand in order 7 to directly do those calculations. 8 MR. deLASKI: I guess, the question is for you 9 guys. 10 MR. WHITWELL: Right. So Andrew, what it was 11 is taking the unit designs that have been used in the 12 engineering analysis and look at, okay... If we have a 13 -- put a gas heat, you know, gas furnace in there, what 14 would we expect to see in terms of any change in the fan 15 power, right, for those various designs? And what that 16 impact would be on the overall efficiency of the 17 equipment to see if we can come up with some good way -- 18 analytical way to say, "Is it two-tenths or is it more?" 19 There was a suggestion at the last meeting that 20 as we get up into the higher levels, maybe it needs to be 21 more than two-tenths. And so this would be an attempt to 22 take a look, analyze that, and do some engineering 23 analysis on it to determine what is the right number. 24 MR. deLASKI: So where we stand right now is 25 you have what you requested for the seven-and-a-half and

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 118 1 15? 2 MR. WHITWELL: We have the 15 and the -- the 3 seven-and-a-half and the 15. So the question is on the 4 30-ton, whether we provide that. 5 Now, an alternative to that, Detlef, would be 6 if Jim were to do the analysis on the seven-and-a-half 7 and the 15 and then provide that to you, and then you 8 could take the 30-ton data and do a similar analysis, I 9 guess, is another way to do it. 10 MR. WESTPHALEN: Oh, yeah, yeah. If there's an 11 agreement of what the increased wattages would be or 12 increased, you know, pressure drop because -- 13 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, I think this approach was 14

-- 15 MR. WESTPHALEN: -- we can take that back to 16 the fan curves and redo the calculations. 17 MR. WHITWELL: That was the approach. So I 18 think the approach would be putting in what we think the 19 additional pressure drop would be for the furnace on the 20 30-ton. And then you can do that analysis, or even look 21 at it for a span of pressure drops, right? 22 MR. WESTPHALEN: Yeah. Yeah. 23 MR. WHITWELL: Right? A range. 24 MS. HOOTMAN: And I'm okay with releasing the 25 data on the 30 tons.

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 119 1 MR. WHITWELL: So if we release the data, where 2 would it go? 3 MS. HOOTMAN: He's one of them, and so is he. 4 MR. WESTPHALEN: Well, we would release it to 5 the same e-mail group, you know. 6 MS. HOOTMAN: Like you did on the 7 seven-and-a-half and the 15? 8 MR. WHITWELL: So this -- this group. 9 MALE SPEAKER: Well, that's public record. 10 MS. HOOTMAN: But you already have the 11 seven-and-a-half and 15. 12 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, the seven and 15, it's out 13 -- its already been -- 14 MS. HOOTMAN: That's what I'm saying. So I 15 don't -- you were asking whether you can release the 16 30-ton stuff, and I'm like, you already have the 17 seven-and-a-half and 15, so you might as well put the 18 30-ton in there. 19 MR. WESTPHALEN: You know, I have the 20 spreadsheet ready to send if everybody's okay with my 21 sending it to the group. 22 MR. WHITWELL: I'm okay. 23 MR. STARR: So this is Louis. I'm trying to 24 Understand, how does this affect the analysis? This is, 25 on the heat side, the fact the additional, as you

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 120 1 mention, for efficiency heat exchange you would have more 2 pressure drop. Is that what you're getting at? Or does 3 this have to do with changing, what is it going to change 4 on the 30-ton analysis? 5 MR. WESTPHALEN: Well, if you have a unit that 6 has a gas furnace in it, there's more pressure drop on 7 the internal air side, so there's a little bit more fan 8 power. So -- and that -- that's -- that's why there are 9 these differentials in, say, the 90.1 standard. 10 MR. STARR: So I mean, but isn't that taken 11 care of in the thousand and 33 buildings? Is that -- the 12 energy use, or are you talking about in the equipment 13 modeling? 14 MR. WESTPHALEN: I'm talking about in terms of 15 what standard IEER would be. 16 MR. STARR: Okay. You're talking about the 17 equipment modeling side? 18 MR. WESTPHALEN: Yeah. 19 MR. STARR: Okay. 20 MR. SACHS: (Inaudible.) I know I did not ask 21 you (inaudible). 22 MR. WESTPHALEN: Yeah. Unfortunately, I didn't 23 bring the spreadsheets that I sent around the other 24 Friday. But we, you know, looked at the AHRI ratings of 25 IEER for the electric heat or no-heat units, and the

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 121 1 corresponding gas heat units. And then, also, the 2 corresponding heat pumps, and then looked at the 3 differentials in IEER between those sets of pairs. And 4 in order to get an understanding of how much lower IEER 5 would you have for a gas heat unit, for instance, than 6 electric heat. 7 MR. SACHS: So this is Harvey again. And I 8 guess the question that comes up then, is: If I look at 9 the ASHRAE 90.1 as of 1/1/16 versus the data review, 10 there are some major differences. 11 MR. deLASKI: I think the point -- the 12 discussion we had last time -- this is Andrew -- Bob teed 13 it up last time. The case that you made, as I understood 14 it, is as the efficiency goes up -- as IEER goes up -- 15 you may see this relationship change. Right? 16 MR. WHITWELL: Actually, it would speed up the 17 process. 18 MR. deLASKI: And that's what you're 19 Investigating, right? So we should see what the results 20 of that investigation turn up, and it may be -- it's a 21 different question than what's being asked here. 22 MR. WHITWELL: Bob Whitwell, Carrier. One of 23 the issues, the data review, those are ratings, right? 24 And ratings -- ratings are going to reflect different -- 25 there's different things that go into the ratings, right?

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 122 1 For example, the ASHRAE 90.1 and DOE standards 2 before that were two-tenths. So that's going to skew 3 what the ratings are going to be, right? So what we want 4 to do is look at -- do some analysis to determine what 5 the impact of the additional pressure drop would actually 6 be, predict what that actually would be, and then see 7 what the impact would be on real performance, as opposed 8 to looking at ratings. 9 MR. WESTPHALEN: So it sounds like the 10 manufacturers involved with those 30-ton analyses are 11 okay with my distributing that spreadsheet. 12 MR. WHITWELL: Well, I think we've got to get 13 all -- I think there's more than -- there's three 14 involved, right? I don't know if we have all three. 15 MR. WESTPHALEN: I think they're all here. 16 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. 17 MALE SPEAKER: (Laughter.) What did you just 18 buy? (Simultaneous speaking.) 19 MS. HOOTMAN: So Rusty -- they want -- 20 MR. THARP: Anything for you, Andrew. 21 MS. HOOTMAN: Rusty, they want to know if they 22 can release the 30-ton information which is basically the 23 three of us. Are you okay with it? 24 MR. WESTPHALEN: No, it's not Rusty. 25 MS. HOOTMAN: It is. It's his company.

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 123 1 MR. WESTPHALEN: Well, it's his company, yeah. 2 MS. HOOTMAN: It's his company, and he's here 3 representing that part of the company. 4 MR. WESTPHALEN: Okay. He's -- he's -- yeah, 5 all right. 6 MR. CYMBALSKY: I'm glad you didn't disclose 7 who gave you the data. 8 MS. HOOTMAN: Well, it's pretty obvious. 9 MR. WESTPHALEN: No, wait a minute. I'm 10 confused here. No, it isn't Rusty's company. 11 MR. THARP: It's my sister's company. 12 MALE SPEAKER: If it was Rusty's company, he's 13 taking me to dinner, and I don't care what the rules are. 14 MR. WESTPHALEN: It was Lennox was the -- 15 MS. HOOTMAN: Anyway, I'm okay. But -- 16 MR. deLASKI: Even if you guys want to release 17 it today, you're going to do the analysis for the 18 seven-and-a-half and for the 15. You can do the analysis 19 that he's setting up. 20 MR. WESTPHALEN: We can do the analysis for the 21 30 if we don't have unanimous consensus that I should 22 release it. 23 MR. RAMIREZ: So was there any understanding of 24 this information not being divulged? Is it -- 25 MR. WHITWELL: Yes, maybe a suggestion --

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 124 1 MR. RAMIREZ: Can I make a suggestion then? 2 Can we briefly just go off the record and see if we can't 3 clarify this? Because if there was a concern with 4 identifying parties or anything -- 5 MR. WESTPHALEN: Well, we have an alternative 6 way of dealing with it if everybody's happy with that. 7 You know, if we're given the additional pressure drops, 8 then we could do the calculations on the additional fan 9 power the way we've been doing them for the rest of the 10 analyses like for the additional pressure drop. 11 MR. RAMIREZ: Does that work as an alternative? 12 MR. WHITWELL: I think that works. So Detlef, 13 I mean, I can send Jim an e-mail and ask him to put 14 together estimates for -- or a range of pressure drops we 15 should be looking at for the 30-ton furnace, right, at 16 least, you know, a starting point. And, you know, if 17 other manufacturers have some different data, then I 18 think it's a fairly easy thing to adjust once you set it 19 up, right? 20 MR. WESTPHALEN: Right, right. Yeah. So okay. 21 So maybe some time in the next couple days -- I don't 22 know if you want -- you would like that information to be 23 put in front of the rest of the group before I -- before 24 we start calculating. 25 MR. WHITWELL: I think you can go ahead and

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 125 1 start calculating, right? I mean -- 2 MR. WESTPHALEN: Well, we can start calculating 3 and then -- all right. I think that covers that topic. 4 MR. CYMBALSKY: So just -- I think we just -- 5 if, Detlef, you could summarize exactly based on what's 6 going to happen here with this new data. What exactly 7 does the group expect to see different? IEER values 8 across the board? 9 MR. WESTPHALEN: Yeah, so I guess I will be 10 receiving, from Carrier, suggestions of the pressure 11 drops associated with the furnaces for the 30-ton units. 12 We will then recalculate the fan input powers for the 13 30-ton units that were analyzed based on, you know, maybe 14 it will be a scenario of a high or a low pressure drop. 15 But whatever that is, and that will then show the impact 16 on the IEER for that representative additional pressure 17 drop of the furnace. 18 So attempting to, essentially for these other 19 heat categories that we have listed here for the very 20 large, looking at the .2, .2, .18, trying to come up with 21 an alternative way of calculating that. 22 MR. CYMBALSKY: So it's just for the very large 23 units we're talking about? 24 MR. WESTPHALEN: That's right, and I think -- 25 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay.

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 126 1 MR. WESTPHALEN: -- the intent was that Jim del 2 Toro was going to do that calculation for the 3 seven-and-a-half and 15. 4 Okay. On to new issues. 5 MS. COUGHLIN: So since we've been through 6 these, I'll skip to shipments. So we received the data 7 from AHRI last Wednesday. We really didn't have a lot of 8 time to process it. And this is -- so the next three 9 slides show our old shipments graph with the new data, 10 these two red dots, and -- 11 MR. RAMIREZ: I'm sorry, just one second. Is 12 everyone -- slide 49? Okay. 13 MS. COUGHLIN: Yeah, slide 49. So the model 14 has not been modified, the total shipments model has not 15 been modified because we were not really certain how to 16 interpret the -- the numbers that we have here. 17 I know that the numbers that have been 18 submitted don't cover the full market, but we don't have 19 the information needed to scale them to the full market, 20 so it didn't seem realistic to take those as actually 21 representative of total shipments in 2011 and 2014. 22 So we have the same sort of issue. This is the 23 seven-and-a-half, here's the 15, and here is the 30. And 24 the 2011 shipments for seven-and-a-half and 15, I think, 25 have no VAV. It's all -- okay.

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 127 1 MR. ROSENQUIST: (Inaudible.) I just wanted to 2 say that the red dots, although they're on the CUAC 3 graph, also include heat pumps. So that was another 4 reason why we were concerned about trying to use that 5 data. We wanted to put this on the graph, though, just 6 to give an indication of how it compares relative to the 7 data that we're already using. 8 MS. COUGHLIN: Right. So you know, this is 9 essentially open for comment. As I said, we didn't end 10 up modeling the -- we didn't end up modifying our model 11 based on these numbers. 12 MR. WHITWELL: So Bob Whitwell from Carrier. 13 This is -- so the numbers there, the blue line that 14 represents units -- straight cooling units, heat pumps, 15 and units with gas heat or other heat or what is -- what 16 exactly is that? 17 MS. COUGHLIN: No, the blue line is -- 18 MR. ROSENQUIST: It's all -- 19 MS. COUGHLIN: Okay. This is all units, yes. 20 MR. WHITWELL: And then the red dots are what? 21 MS. COUGHLIN: So the red dots were the 22 shipments data that we received on Wednesday, the new 23 data for 2011 and 2014. 24 And again, I mean, we're trying -- the 25 intention of the graph is to represent the full market.

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 128 1 And we know that the red dots don't represent the full 2 market, but we don't actually know what fraction of the 3 market they do represent. So we just put this up for 4 informational purposes. That's our understanding, 5 anyway. 6 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yeah. And just more 7 information for you. So the data -- yeah, so the data 8 through 1999 was what was submitted by AHRI back for the 9 last time we did an analysis for a rule making back in 10 2004. 11 So we -- I would say the data up through 1999 12 is solid, right? From 2000 to 2009, that data is derived 13 from Census -- Census data. So that probably has some 14 uncertainty with it, which I was thinking, personally, 15 was probably on the range of 5, maybe 10 percent. 16 So again, that's why we were so -- you know, 17 surprised to see how low those numbers were because, you 18 know, we thought -- at least up through 1999, we knew we 19 had solid data, and then in the Census, we thought could 20 not be that far off. 21 Another thing to add, that -- I know this data 22 is supposed to represent seven of nine large 23 manufacturers. Again, you know, we do know the rough 24 market share of each manufacturer. So if you would 25 identify the manufacturers that were the seven or -- or

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 129 1 maybe even more of the manufacturers -- well, yeah, the 2 manufacturers who are in the seven, I think we can 3 probably do some scaling. But I think that would 4 probably get into areas that you would be uncomfortable 5 with providing. 6 MR. deLASKI: The other question I – that 7 occurs to me is: Do we know that for each of the size 8 ranges, that all seven submitted data? 9 MR. MISLAK: Yeah. I mean, the data that was 10 submitted includes all the different categories that were 11 analyzed in the NOPR. But, I mean, keep in mind, too, 12 that there are categories where that weren't enough 13 manufacturers reporting data such that we could share 14 data. So there's areas where there could be some volume, 15 but due to confidentiality, we couldn't provide numbers. 16 MR. WHITWELL: So when you can't provide 17 numbers -- 18 MR. MISLAK: Then that's -- 19 MR. deLASKI: At zero, basically. 20 MR. MISLAK: Then the column receives an 21 Asterisk. It's ruled out so the manufacturer(s) remains 22 confidential. 23 MR. deLASKI: Do you guys see that? Did the 24 consultant see what was zeroed out? 25 MS. HOOTMAN: No.

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 130 1 MR. deLASKI: So no one knows. I see. 2 MS. HOOTMAN: So that's what I'm saying, they 3 see what is zeroed out or what is asterisked because 4 there's manufacturers who have that, but not enough to 5 report because in a public record you would understand 6 what market share it is. 7 So no, we did not share anything that was 8 asterisked out from AHRI to LBNL. You can only know that 9 there is somebody there, but you don't know how much. 10 MR. WHITWELL: So it was asterisked if there 11 were less than three manufacturers that have volume 12 there. It was shown as an asterisk as opposed to a dash 13 or a zero. 14 MR. CYMBALSKY: So I mean -- 15 MR. WHITWELL: So yes, they could tell where 16 there was volume, but there were not enough manufacturers 17 that we could report it. 18 MR. CYMBALSKY: Right. And it doesn't mean low 19 volume. It just means low number of reported 20 manufacturers. It could be a lot of volume? 21 MS. HOOTMAN: It could be a lot, or it could be 22 Less. You don't know exactly. 23 MR. CYMBALSKY: We don't know. So you really 24 can't infer anything from an asterisk other than -- 25 MR. deLASKI: Right. And we don't know --

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 131 1 MR. CYMBALSKY: -- there's less than three 2 manufacturers who submitted data. 3 MR. deLASKI: We don't know whether it was a 4 manufacturer that didn't participate or some 5 manufacturers chose not to fully fill out the form -- 6 fill out the survey. In either case, you would have -- 7 the triggering factor is less than three, right? 8 MS. HOOTMAN: Right, and so there could be only 9 two people having models there, and so they only have -- 10 two manufacturers literally only have models there, and 11 two gave the data, but two can't be exposed. 12 MR. deLASKI: I guess where I'm driving at with 13 this is, if you -- if the manufacturers were to tell the 14 consultants that seven manufacturers -- who the seven 15 manufacturers are, it doesn't necessarily -- you don't 16 know that all seven filled it out completely. Or did 17 they? I mean, can we answer that question? We can't. 18 MR. CYMBALSKY: Well, I think -- let's peel 19 back. I think where -- 20 MR. MISLAK: I mean, from our standpoint, we 21 received the data from all seven manufacturers, you know. 22 And we're assuming that all the manufacturers took the 23 time to fill the sheets out properly because, you know, 24 we had volume where they had volume reported. But, you 25 know, when it's sent to our department to aggregate it,

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 132 1 they take the data, and then they process it to make sure 2 everybody that has less than three remains confidential. 3 So whether or not a cell was skipped, if that's 4 what you're asking, or if they filled it our properly, we 5 don't know. We have to leave that up to the 6 manufacturers reporting. Does that answer your question? 7 MR. deLASKI: It does, and the only check is 8 the manufacturers care, right? There's no check is my 9 point. 10 MR. MISLAK: Yeah, I mean, it's advantageous to 11 them to provide the correct data. So I mean -- 12 MS. MEYERS: This is Karen with Rheem. I'll be 13 happy to answer for my company. We filled out the form 14 completely, so -- 15 MR. WINNINGHAM: As we did. So you've got -- 16 MS. MEYERS: Where we had applicable products, 17 we provided volume. So I don't -- you know -- I don't 18 know. 19 MR. CYMBALSKY: So this is John from DOE. So 20 in the beginning of the meeting, I guess I made a 21 statement that I said, I guess, what I thought was more 22 important use of this -- these data were, you know, the 23 market shares by efficiency. So the percentages, not 24 necessarily the volume -- total volume, in my mind, 25 right? Because that's -- again, at that point, you're

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 133 1 just scaling national energy savings up and down. 2 You're still getting the right magnitude 3 between the ELs and TSLs, which I think is the more 4 important -- locking in the IEER, to me, is what's 5 important. Whether it says it's five quads, 10 quads, 15 6 quads. Those are -- 7 FEMALE SPEAKER: 20 quads. 8 MR. CYMBALSKY: 20, you know, I guess we're up 9 to 20 now. You know, that's great, and I like the big 10 numbers, but I think the real important policy decision 11 that we're wrangling with is, you know, the TSL level. 12 So again, if these numbers are scaled up or 13 down, all of them get scaled up and down. Again, there 14 will be some -- the MIA takes the volumes, and that's 15 important there. But -- but, again, the manufacturers 16 here at the table, they know what the impact on their 17 company's going to be, I assume. So it's not that I'm 18 less concerned about that, but I -- when you go to 19 negotiate, you know that answer. I hope you're not 20 relying on our guys to tell you what's going to happen to 21 your company at certain TSL choices. 22 So while these data are, you know, they're two 23 red dots. But I think being able to get that efficiency 24 level data, I think was -- for the analysis, I think was 25 much more important than these two sort of total dots on

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 134 1 the page, in my mind. 2 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. I think it goes 3 without saying that we all appreciate the work the 4 manufacturers and AHRI went to to provide the data for 5 purposes such as you suggest, John. 6 MALE SPEAKER: And, you know, the earlier 7 tables showed how much those percentages moved around. 8 You know, we went from, I think, zero to 40 percent, 9 right, in one of the categories for EL 3 and above. I 10 think that's what I remember, right? 11 So that's -- I mean, that's huge. I mean, 12 that's a big impact on the analysis. 13 MS. COUGHLIN: Yes. And we're actually -- it's 14 not in the slides today, but we're still processing the 15 information regarding the efficiency distribution for the 16 projection in the shipments model. And yeah, so -- so 17 yeah. So again, so we did not make any modifications to 18 total shipments, and I'm -- I think it's probably fine 19 the way it is. And then, you know, we can potentially 20 worry about some of this as we go to the completion of 21 the analysis. 22 So I guess -- will we move on to the next? So 23 we did rerun the shipments model with the new LCC 24 results. That's the main thing. So we have the new 25 distribution of conversion curbs in the population and

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 135 1 the new base-case efficiency distribution as well. And 2 the LCC results, because they affect the product cost and 3 product operating cost in the average, do affect the 4 shipments projections. 5 So these are the new shipments projections in 6 the -- again, this graph just shows the shipments drop. 7 And then, we have the table that you requested here. So 8 it provides for each of the product subclasses. So CUAC 9 and CUHP by EL, you have the shipments to the three 10 different channels that we defined. So there's the new 11 construction, the new shipments to existing buildings, 12 and the replacement shipments. 13 I think -- so essentially you can see the -- 14 there is some elasticity in the new shipments to existing 15 buildings and in the replacement market due to this 16 repair/replace decision, and then the new construction is 17 inelastic. And then the bar graphs are reproduced here, 18 the same format that we had last time. 19 And then the final slide in the section just 20 gives us the, again, the percentage reductions and total 21 shipments for different product classes for the new LCC 22 data. 23 MR. WINNINGHAM: Question on this graph. Are 24 those drop in shipments individual or cumulative as they 25 -- as they go down?

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 136 1 MS. COUGHLIN: Yeah, this is the drop in the 2 cumulative shipments over the whole analysis period. It 3 tends to be fairly -- you know, the way those graphs 4 work, it drops, and then it stays parallel. So it's 5 pretty close to the annual drop, as well. 6 MS. HOOTMAN: Okay. But maybe I'm not 7 understanding. Clarifying, so are you saying that if 8 somebody went from an EL 1 to an EL 2, it's four plus 9 seven? 10 MS. COUGHLIN: No. 11 MS. HOOTMAN: Okay. 12 MS. COUGHLIN: So everything is just related 13 back to the base case. So it's 7.6 percent relative to 14 the base case. 15 MS. HOOTMAN: To the base case. Okay. Thank 16 you. 17 MR. STARR: So this is Louis. I have a 18 question. On slide 57, what's the -- it says, "sum of 19 SR, SE and SN." What are those? 20 MS. COUGHLIN: Those are shipments to the 21 replacement market, shipments to existing buildings, and 22 shipments to new construction. 23 MR. STARR: Oh, okay. 24 MR. deLASKI: Okay. This is Andrew. Would you 25 mind going back to slide 49? I'm sorry. Not necessarily

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 137 1 that one; the one that was revised shipments and 2 analysis. I meant to say 52. 3 MS. COUGHLIN: This one? 4 MR. deLASKI: Yeah. So I understand your 5 method here -- I think I understand it. I mean, we 6 talked about it last time. It's driven largely by the 7 elasticity of the demand. We talked about -- 8 MS. COUGHLIN: That's right. So essentially, 9 there's a step change in the price of the model when the 10 standard comes in, right, which is why you get that sharp 11 drop. And then over time, that price essentially... that 12 price change remains constant, I think. We don't have a 13 price learning. And then there could be a slight 14 reduction in the elasticity. I don't know if that's 15 implemented in this model. 16 Okay. So essentially, that's why once you've 17 dropped, you just remain more or less parallel to the 18 base-case line. And then there's some small variation 19 because we do have, in addition to the install cost, we 20 have an -- a discounted operating cost in the utility 21 function that represents the sort of decision variable. 22 And the operating cost will change slightly due to the 23 change in electricity price over time. And something 24 happened to our screen. 25 MR. deLASKI: I think we had a discussion -- I

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 138 1 think we had a discussion last time about the uncertainty 2 around this elasticity. 3 MS. COUGHLIN: Yes. 4 MR. deLASKI: And I looked back at this data, 5 and I think it's very helpful to have the historic data 6 shown there. The last standard took effect in 2010. 7 That's what the that parties negotiated, and that was 8 enacted in 2005 and took effect in 2011. And the one 9 before took effect in what year? In '92, it was enacted 10 and took effect in -- what was it? '96? 11 MS. HOOTMAN: '92, I agree, but I don't know if 12 that's -- (inaudible). 13 MR. deLASKI: In the '90s. And I guess what 14 I'm looking at here is, the historic record doesn't 15 suggest that you see that drop when it goes into effect. 16 So we have two prior standards taking effect. One, in a 17 pretty recent past history, and it didn't show any drop. 18 So I'm wondering how we square that historic experience 19 with these projections for the future. 20 MS. COUGHLIN: So -- well, I guess, you know -- 21 MS. HOOTMAN: I'm seeing a drop, but maybe I'm 22 not seeing what you're seeing, Andrew. There -- I mean, 23 in 2010 I'm seeing a drop from, in this case, what? About 24 20,000 down to around 16,000. 25 MS. COUGHLIN: Right. Yeah, I mean, there is a

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 139 1 change in the driver at the same time, the floor space 2 driver on the new construction. So we would need to 3 factor that out because we had the big crash in the 4 commercial building market. So yeah, I mean, you know -- 5 MR. HURST: Would you factor out the increase, 6 also? 7 MS. COUGHLIN: What increase? 8 MR. HURST: There was an increase before the 9 crash. Would you factor that out? 10 MS. COUGHLIN: We didn't factor -- no, so what 11 I'm saying is we haven't factored -- so the driver goes 12 up and down, right? So there's a driver on the shipments 13 model which is tied to floor space, and that is not 14 smooth growth; that has sort of boom and bust cycles, so 15 you see these wiggles in the model due to that, and 16 that's part of what happened in the period from 2008 to 17 2010. It wasn't just the standard coming in. 18 So yeah -- I mean, I think -- you know, there 19 are different viewpoints on whether or not the market is 20 elastic, and it's very difficult to tell from the data, 21 so -- 22 MR. deLASKI: So last time we talked about 23 doing a sensitivity. Were you able to implement that, or 24 not yet? 25 MS. COUGHLIN: Yeah, we're working on that.

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 140 1 There's a -- the results are -- it actually -- let's see, 2 I don't want to get too technical. But it's difficult to 3 take the repairs out completely and retain the same 4 accounting conventions, so we have to do some 5 modifications to the spreadsheet to make sure that we 6 compare them correctly. And those are just taking longer 7 than, well, the three days that we had to do them. So 8 we're hoping we'll be done by tomorrow, but I'm not sure 9 that -- but it's not going to be a very large difference. 10 It's -- because the -- when you have no 11 elasticity, you get more energy savings. But the 12 difference is the portion of the market times the change 13 in the base-case projection of the energy use to the 14 standards case projection of the energy use, so it's 15 probably about half the percentage associated with the 16 shipments drop. That's my rough guess, but yeah. 17 MR. SACHS: Katie, turning to a slightly 18 different topic, that is the statement just now that for 19 the future these lines are running parallel. And you've 20 not included any learning curves. And it's in 21 conjunction with some other work that I was doing, I 22 noted that on last -- on the May 21st slide 62, it said, 23 "Producer Price Index, PPI, series for unitary air 24 conditioners except heat pumps expanding 1978 to 2013 was 25 analyzed for forecast future equipment prices. No

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 141 1 discernible long-term decline in cost trend." 2 MS. COUGHLIN: Correct. 3 MR. SACHS: Which could justify the exclusion 4 of any kind of a learning curve? 5 MS. COUGHLIN: Yes -- no, I misspoke. It's not 6 that we didn't do it, it's that it doesn't have an 7 effect. So we always check to see -- 8 MR. SACHS: You check. I commend you for that. 9 MS. COUGHLIN: -- to see if the trend is there. 10 MR. SACHS: The remaining intellectually 11 interesting question is: As we shift from EER, which I 12 perceive to be strongly dependent on the amount and 13 quality of the mechanical components to IEER, which has a 14 number of other influences that may not be quite as 15 material-intensive, I certainly would agree that if we 16 had continued on the EER trajectory, learning would have 17 -- well, it would have been expected to be that of mature 18 technology suite dominiums. 19 But I'm not sure that the strategies that will 20 be adopted for IEER-optimized equipment will not lead to 21 some declining prices. I think they will. 22 MR. deLASKI: This is Andrew again. And I want 23 to -- Jill, when I was looking at the map, just 24 responding to your comment, I was looking at the year 25 2010 and, you know, I see a drop in 2008 to 2009 that I

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 142 1 assume was driven by the bottom falling out of the 2 economy. 3 And then in 2010, it looks to me like it's 4 pretty stable. So -- and I'm just reading off the graph, 5 so that's always dangerous. 6 MS. HOOTMAN: I mean, it was stable or flat. 7 MR. deLASKI: Yeah. 8 MS. HOOTMAN: In a very low point. 9 MR. deLASKI: After the economy had tanked and 10 then it was in recovery. So that's what I -- that's when 11 I was looking at the graph, that's what I see. So I 12 don't always see -- I'm having trouble sort of discerning 13 on the graph an effect of the standard in 2010 on 14 shipments. 15 Undoubtedly, there's a -- you know, the market 16 recovered as the economy recovered from the crash from 17 the economy going into the tank. But I don't see sort of 18 the standard putting a break on shipments. Just, you 19 know, it's a lot to untangle what happened to the market 20 at that point in time, lots of different factors going 21 on. 22 MS. MEYERS: So Andrew, this is Karen. Can you 23 repeat what you just said? 24 MR. deLASKI: I'm looking at -- the model here 25 is showing shipments dropping when the standard takes

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 143 1 effect. And I'm looking for: What was the experience 2 when prior standards took effect in 1995 or thereabouts? 3 And I'm forgetting the exact year, and in the year 2010. 4 And I'm not seeing in the line, the impact in shipments 5 that were -- in that -- those two historic situations 6 that I'm seeing projected for the future. 7 And I'm acknowledging that, you know, there's 8 lots of things that may be impacting the market at any 9 given year, you know. It's hard to discern, hard to 10 tease out any one factor. But this one -- but this is a 11 pretty big factor the way -- what's being projected here. 12 And I'm just struck that it seems to me that it likely 13 overestimates the impact on shipments. 14 MR. HURST: John Hurst from Lennox. You're 15 right, Andrew, it's -- 16 MR. SACHS: 2010, 2011? 17 MS. COUGHLIN: No, it's '09, '10. 18 MR. SACHS: This is '09, '10, so we have 19 nothing in data. 20 MS. COUGHLIN: We have those red dots that we 21 were looking at. 22 MR. SACHS: Thank you. 23 MS. COUGHLIN: Yes. 24 MR. HURST: But also, if you look at '95, that 25 was, I believe on the back end of a recession coming out

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 144 1 of '92, '93. So you know, if you can hold the economy 2 constant -- which you can't -- I mean, so we can debate 3 these numbers all day long. But my basic belief is when 4 you raise the price of something, demand goes down. 5 That's Chapter 1, but, you know, we can talk about the 6 effect of the economy all day. I don't think we'll ever 7 be able to tease that piece of it out of it. 8 MR. deLASKI: I agree with what you're saying, 9 and I agree with the basic notion that, you know, that 10 price did effect demand -- levels of demand. 11 What we discussed last time is that in the case 12 of this equipment, where the failure rate or the failure 13 mode is a compressor replacement which costs 80 percent 14 as much as the new product, it's a relatively unusual 15 situation -- 16 MR. WINNINGHAM: And I will point out, again, 17 that that 80 percent was not reflected in the numbers. 18 MR. RAMIREZ: Instead of going too far into the 19 weeds here, because -- correct me if I'm wrong -- but are 20 these supposed to be causation or correlation? I don't 21 think that -- I think maybe what it's showing here is 22 more of a correlation. 23 MS. COUGHLIN: It's neither. It's economics. 24 So it's -- in the -- there's a sort of standard way in 25 economics of modeling price elasticity, which is the

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 145 1 response. So again, the kind of textbook picture is if 2 demand is related to price, if the price goes up, demand 3 goes down. And so we are using a standard version of 4 that type of model that lowers the demand for a product 5 proportional to a price increase. 6 So it's -- it's not causal in the sense that 7 you -- you know, you really can't build up a model from 8 the ground up that necessarily shows this behavior. So 9 it would be a correlation analysis, but what people have 10 been pointing out is you would have to factor the 11 background effects of overall economic ups and downs, and 12 there's not generally enough data to do that reliably. 13 MR. CYMBALSKY: I mean, for this product, the 14 way the conversations been going is that -- as I recall 15 it, there's no substitute to the rooftop units, per se. I 16 think they're kind of locked into the rooftop. They're 17 not going to switch to chillers is what I heard, and 18 they're not going to go without. 19 So their only other thing to do is repair and 20 get the extra ten years or whatever it is. So I think 21 the question -- I mean, I struggled with this, too when I 22 first saw the numbers way back when that, based on the 23 fact that this product doesn't seem to have a substitute 24 in the market other than repair is, you know, 10 percent 25 or 11 percent, whatever that high number was, you know,

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 146 1 was the right one. 2 MR. SACHS: John -- 3 MR. CYMBALSKY: I don't think we do know that. 4 And as Katie said, I don't think the data presented here 5 give us the clarity now, you know, for the other products 6 that we do this kind of analysis on, there are some 7 substitutes. And there are -- people can do without, for 8 example, a dishwasher. They don't necessarily have to 9 have one. They can wash by hand. But a commercial 10 building can't go without air conditioning. I mean, it's 11 not going to happen. 12 MR. SACHS: But John, that makes -- this is 13 Harvey. And it makes a very important point illustrated 14 by the 2009, 2010 recession from which we've had a slow 15 recovery. Sales of RTUs dropped by less than the 20 16 percent fraction roughly that goes into new construction. 17 New construction dropped by much more than 20 percent. 18 That -- it's -- HVAC is dragged along in damped form to 19 the rise and fall of construction, and that would include 20 retrofits. And I notice that -- 21 MR. CYMBALSKY: Well, there's vacancy rates. 22 You can't overlook that. 23 MR. SACHS: The vacancy rates, right. As the 24 vacancy rates go up, the construction stops, and 25 consequently, you get a fall here. It may affect at the

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 147 1 margin, the EL level that somebody chooses on a 2 replacement, but I think that standards can be readily 3 shown to be a much smaller driver of sales than changes 4 in the economics cycle for office space and other 5 applications. 6 MR. CYMBALSKY: I don't think anyone here would 7 disagree with that. I think -- the other thing I think 8 that was different with this recession, in my mind at 9 least, was that leading up to this, there was a lot of 10 office -- lot of commercial space spec -- built on spec 11 that they didn't actually sign any tenants to before they 12 built the buildings, and they overbuilt a lot relative to 13 recessions we saw in the '90s, for example. 14 And so you're right, there's these relatively 15 new buildings with high vacancy rates that they didn't 16 have to do new construction to make up for the swing back 17 up in the economic activity. So what I'm thinking is 18 they kind of backfilled with the overbuilding, so that's 19 why you didn't see the uptick as significant as maybe in 20 the past. Just a theory, but -- 21 MS. HOOTMAN: So John, I think the other thing 22 that you described -- that they won't go without air 23 conditioning -- I think what also happens is, you know, 24 let's say you take an average franchise owner of a 25 McDonald's, or even if it's not quick-serve restaurants,

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 148 1 even if you're talking about maybe an area that has, you 2 know, a bunch of dry-cleaners around an area. When they 3 have to make those decisions and the economic downturn 4 was happening, I think they shut branches. They went 5 without air conditioning. They shut branches. They shut 6 down, you know. They might have gone from 20 down to 11 7 in an area or something like that. So they did, you 8 know, technically go without air, and it became more of 9 that leasable space that then opened up. 10 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yeah, I mean, all this just 11 leads me to believe that, you know, I don't know what to 12 believe. But other than the fact that for better or for 13 worse, we have, you know, this trend line out there based 14 on the different ELs assumed as the standard, at least to 15 me, the direction of each one is correct. 16 I mean, other than that, you can move those 17 lines up and down. But, again, they'd all move relative 18 to each other. Like, I hate to keep coming back to this 19 point, but does it change the relative intervals between 20 the ELs and TSLs that we're going to negotiate around? I 21 don't know. 22 MALE SPEAKER: Any further thoughts on this 23 shipment information? 24 MS. MEYERS: So this is Karen with Rheem. I 25 know you're looking at this on an industry basis, but, I

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 149 1 mean, did you look at companies that have smaller versus 2 larger market share? Because that's of concern to my 3 company. Because I can tell you, my trend line doesn't 4 look anything like this. 5 MS. COUGHLIN: Yeah, I think that that comes in 6 in the MIA, actually, to some extent. But we don't -- in 7 the shipments in NIA, we just treat the industry as an 8 industry. So any discussion of individual types of 9 company goes through the MIA. 10 So should we move to the NIA now? Okay. So 11 moving to slide 60, I have a few slides on just the 12 mechanics of the national impacts analysis. So this is 13 where we estimate the total national energy savings and 14 the consumer impacts over the full analysis period at 15 each of the efficiency levels. And so this is 16 essentially developed out of -- we do these -- we take 17 the shipments; we build up a time-dependent model of the 18 stock, and then we just do some multiplication to get the 19 energy savings. And in each year, we aggregate the cost 20 of the unit and the cost of the energy to run the unit. 21 So if you think about it, the shipments are an 22 input to a stock model, and then in each year, I have a 23 distribution of stock by vintage. And depending on the 24 vintage of the unit, the energy use changes. So there's 25 some variability in the energy cost, and then there's --

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 150 1 in each year, there's also the cost of new shipments. So 2 these are sort of aggregated to give the total costs and 3 benefits to the purchasers of the equipment year by year. 4 And then we sum all that up and discount it, and that 5 gives us the NPV. 6 And we use OMB mandated discount rates in this 7 analysis, 3 percent and 7 percent. So I'm going to go 8 through those steps in more detail. 9 So again, the chevrons here show that the two 10 primary inputs to the national energy savings are the LCC 11 results. So we export the average unit cost and average 12 annual energy use at each efficiency level for each 13 product subclass. And then we take the shipments model, 14 which tell us how many of the models ship under each EL 15 for each product type. And then those come together in 16 the NIA model to determine the energy savings and the 17 dollar value of the consumer impacts, which we call the 18 NPV. 19 So the energy savings, you'll frequently hear 20 that called the NES, national energy savings, and then 21 the NPV is the dollar side of the equation. We use a 22 standard approach across all DOE rules to do a 30-year 23 period after the first year of the standard, and we 24 include in the accounting the energy savings associated 25 with everything that ships during the analysis period.

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 151 1 So there's a sort of residual of, after 2048, 2 which is the final year of the analysis period for this 3 rule, the units that shipped that are still operating 4 after that period. Their energy savings are counted in 5 the total. An overall because when you do the repair, 6 you know, we either repair or replace a unit. So the 7 stock is essentially constant across efficiency levels, 8 but the distribution by vintage is what changes. 9 So the shipments analysis is used, as I was 10 saying, to create the picture of the stock model in the 11 base case. And then, because you have fewer shipments in 12 the standards case, the stock distribution changes. 13 So each year we have a -- a table of the total 14 stock as a function of vintage. And then we apply the 15 annual energy consumption per vintage and calculate the 16 energy use. The numbers that we report here, we do the 17 site-to-source conversion, so we convert from site 18 electricity to source quads. That's the fuel burned in 19 the electricity plants, and then we do the accumulated 20 totals across the analysis period. 21 So the primary inputs, which we'll go through 22 in more detail in the next slide, are listed here. We 23 have for the -- both the base case and the standards 24 case, we want the energy cost, maintenance and repair 25 cost, and equipment cost, and again, these are going to

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 152 1 change as a function of efficiency level. 2 So the total installed costs are coming from 3 the LCC. Now, the LCC gives a full distribution of 4 results across all these different types of consumer, and 5 then what we put into the national impacts analysis is 6 just the weighted average from the LCC. So, it will be 7 the weighted average across all the different energy 8 prices by region and, of course, across all the different 9 discount rates across the LCC across all the different 10 curb conversion percentages, et cetera. 11 Repair and maintenance costs are also taken 12 from the LCC. So I think this is pretty much what we 13 discussed in the LCC section. I don't think there are 14 any significant changes here. We did do the different 15 time -- timeline for the non-compressor repairs and the 16 compressor repairs; this was requested last time. 17 Annual energy use, again, is coming from the 18 LCC average value. The base-case efficiencies have been 19 updated to reflect the most recent data submission. We 20 do have a base-case and standards-case projected 21 efficiency trend, which is almost flat given our current 22 estimates of consumer first-cost sensitivity. So 23 essentially, over time if the -- typically, energy prices 24 go up over time, so there's a slight increase in the 25 operating cost. And therefore, if consumers were

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 153 1 sensitive to operating cost savings, they might be more 2 likely to buy more-efficient units in the future. 3 But what we find from the data that we have is 4 there is not much sensitivity to that outright in costs, 5 so our efficiency trend is pretty flat over time. 6 The energy prices come from the latest version 7 of the AEO, and we do -- again, the rest of this is 8 standard -- we do the full-fuel-cycle conversion. So 9 this includes sort of upstream energy consumption for the 10 electric sector, which adds just a couple percent to the 11 totals. 12 And as I said, the discount rates that are used 13 for the NPV in this calculation are 3 percent and 7 14 percent, which is an OMB requirement, and we are 15 discounting to the present year, just -- that's sort of a 16 unit conversion. So essentially, even though the 17 standard comes in in 2019, everything is discounted to 18 2015. 19 So this is something that may be a little more 20 relevant. So I think probably most of you have -- are 21 familiar with the process where we create TSLs out of 22 efficiency levels, ELs. So what we have done for this 23 stage of the work is just to take the TSLs as just 24 choosing the same EL across all different equipment 25 classes. But as you go through the process, you can -- I

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 154 1 mean, it's basically possible to choose a different EL 2 level for different equipment classes, and then you're 3 going to get different aggregate results. So we have TSL 4 1 is just every equipment class gets EL 1, et cetera, et 5 cetera. 6 MR. CYMBALSKY: So this is John from DOE. 7 This, you know -- this table's really nice and 8 neat because there's no real difference, maybe a couple 9 here and there, where there's no 3.5s. But I don't want 10 to overlook the fact that these are potentially 11 negotiating positions, right? You could pick a different 12 EL for different equipment classes. 13 So maybe it's easier to go higher at the lower 14 levels, and not as easy on the higher levels. So you can 15 kind of Chinese menu this a little bit. So just keep 16 that in the back of your minds. 17 MS. COUGHLIN: Yeah, we're trying to set up a 18 tool so that if you want to change these numbers, we can 19 give a quick estimate of what the aggregate numbers would 20 be if you modified -- if you wanted to say, take two and 21 three, and combine them across different product classes. 22 So with those values, this is what we get for the energy 23 savings. 24 MS. HOOTMAN: (Inaudible) commercial 25 (inaudible). Sorry, I wasn't -- Jill Hootman from Trane.

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 155 1 Sorry. 2 MS. COUGHLIN: We can look into that. We did 3 not discuss that. We need sort of special output from 4 the NIA calculation to set that up, but we can look into 5 it and get back to you tomorrow. 6 MS. HOOTMAN: Okay. 7 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yeah, I was thinking those 8 numbers are a little more clear-cut in terms of costs and 9 benefits where you may not, you know, you don't have the 10 shrimp and lobster sauce and the pork lo mein to go back 11 and forth on. But it's all lo mein, apparently, for that 12 one. 13 MS. COUGHLIN: Okay. So this, we have here the 14 cumulative national energy savings across these strawman 15 TSLs for each of the equipment classes, and then at the 16 bottom, there is a total. So as you can see, the -- for 17 all equipment classes together, we're getting maximum 18 energy savings at max-tech. That's just normal. 19 And, I guess, we've been doing -- we've been 20 sitting in the corner doing our back-of-the-envelope 21 estimates, because, again, we did this in a hurry and 22 these spreadsheets can be a little complicated. We're 23 pretty confident that the numbers are pretty close to 24 what you would do if you just sat down and did a back of 25 the envelope looking at the shipments and various other

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 156 1 things. 2 There may be some issues with TSLs 1 and 2 3 where these are somewhat overestimated, so again, these 4 are draft results, but definitely the order of magnitude 5 is correct. Did you want to -- oh, okay. 6 MR. ROSENQUIST: Just reiterating what 7 (inaudible) said. 8 MS. COUGHLIN: So we're continually updating, 9 so we'll keep you posted. 10 And then moving to the NPV. So this is the 3- 11 percent discount rate. So the energy savings just go up 12 as a function of the EL, but the NPV will go up and 13 potentially come back down as the balance between 14 purchase price increase and operating cost savings 15 changes. So here you can see, for example, the max NPV 16 at 3 percent is occurring in different places. It's EL 3 17 for small CUAC, moves up to EL 4 for the large and extra 18 large, and I believe it's at max-tech pretty much -- it's 19 max-tech for the small heat pump, EL 4 for large, and EL 20 5 for extra large. 21 And then when we go to a 7-percent discount 22 rate, the distribution or the relative value is about 23 where the maxima are and stay pretty much the same, but 24 the total values go down because they're discounting the 25 future operating cost savings more heavily.

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 157 1 I think this is pretty much all we have to 2 present today. 3 MR. BANTLE: Okay. How about at this point we 4 take a brief break. I believe some people have a call, 5 and on this break, also take a look at this information. 6 See if you have any questions to bring back to the DOE 7 individuals. 8 MR. RAMIREZ: What time did you want to get 9 back together? 10 MR. deLASKI: Five, 10 minutes, I guess 11 (simultaneous speaking). 12 (Off-the-record conversation.) 13 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yeah, we've got the MIA left. 14 That's the wrap-up. 15 MS. HOOTMAN: Katie, one quick question. Go 16 back -- well, I guess the 3-percent discount rate one. So 17 you said on small package air conditioners, TSL 3. So I 18 can see that it goes from 26.7 to 28.3, and then it goes 19 back down. So I can almost see that, but then it goes 20 back up again. So why wouldn't you say 4 or 5? 21 MR. deLASKI: I was going to call Katie on 22 this, but I let it slide. 23 MS. COUGHLIN: I think I just misspoke. That's 24 all. Sorry. 25 MR. deLASKI: I heard the same thing.

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 158 1 MS. COUGHLIN: No, you're right. You're right. 2 You're right. 3 MS. HOOTMAN: I was not following the logic 4 there, so -- 5 MR. deLASKI: The accent for the small would be 6 TSL 5. 7 MS. COUGHLIN: TSL 5, yes. 8 MR. deLASKI: Right? 9 MS. COUGHLIN: Yes, yes. 10 MR. CYMBALSKY: But the statute does not 11 necessarily say max NPV; right? 12 MS. COUGHLIN: That's right. 13 MS. HOOTMAN: Oh, I understand. I just didn't 14 understand when she was pointing to that, and then I see 15 the numbers -- 16 MR. CYMBALSKY: There's just a lot of numbers 17 and so -- 18 MR. BANTLE: Okay. 3:24 right now. Let's try 19 to be back at 3:45 to restart. Thanks. 20 (Recess taken.) 21 MR. BANTLE: Before we move on, any questions 22 or comments on the last section? Okay. 23 MR. LAU: Hi folks, I'm Chris Lau, Navigant. 24 I'll be presenting the MIA results now. So these are 25 pretty standard slides. The purpose of the manufacture

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 159 1 impact analysis is to assess the impact of potential 2 energy factors on the industry, including subgroups. We 3 also examine impacts on direct employment, manufacturing 4 capacity, cumulative burden. 5 For purposes of today, we're really focusing 6 strictly on the INPV impacts. We received shipments data 7 on Wednesday, and I think Greg cranked out new shipment 8 model results on Thursday, so we've been working on the 9 MIA since then. So I think this is a little more 10 detailed than we typically present in our NOPR 11 presentations. However, I want to focus on -- since we 12 had time -- get a little better understanding of how this 13 model works. 14 Let me start by going over some of the inputs. 15 A lot of our inputs come from a lot of the analyses that 16 we've already discussed today. For example, our current 17 future shipments come from the shipments analysis. Our 18 manufacturing production costs come from the engineering 19 analysis. Our financial metrics and markups come 20 upstream. They're from the MTA. Actually, they're from 21 SEC filings that go into the MTA. And our conversion 22 costs are some combination of manufacturer interviews and 23 the engineering analysis. 24 Now, for this rule and this analysis, our 25 conversion costs are strictly top-down. So they're

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 160 1 completely based off of feedback from manufacturers, from 2 manufacturers in confidential interviews, and then we had 3 to scale that up to represent the industry. I know 4 there's some consternation about conversion costs. I 5 feel there's also a little confusion there, so I'll get 6 to that later in the slides. 7 Anyways, so with -- so what we thought was that 8 second column of beige boxes, if we go to the third 9 column, which are blue boxes again, what we do is we take 10 shipments, and we multiply it by the manufacturer 11 production costs and markups to get industry revenue. 12 The MPCs themselves scale by shipments gives you COGS, 13 and so that basically gives you -- basically gives you 14 the beginnings of your annual income statements where 15 you're able to subtract off -- 16 MR. SACHS: What's the COGS? 17 MR. LAU: Cost of Goods Sold. 18 MR. SACHS: Thank you. 19 MR. LAU: No problem. 20 We're able to estimate operating costs, using 21 some of our financial metrics, specifically SG&A as a 22 specific revenue, and R&D as a percentage of revenue. So 23 that gives us our annual income statement. We then add 24 back in depreciation, subtract off capital expenditures, 25 and subtract off changes of working capital to get us to

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 161 1 an annual free cash flow. 2 We have a discount rate that we estimate for 3 the industry, again, based off SEC filings and industry 4 feedback. That gives us our discounted free cash flow, 5 which we sum up over the analysis period of 30 years to 6 get INPV. So it's a standard industry evaluation based 7 on discounted free cash flow. 8 So what's changed since the NOPR analysis? 9 Well, I'll be honest. We definitely have new MPCs based 10 off of the work Detlef and his team have done. We have 11 new shipments based off the team -- based off of Greg and 12 Katie's teams' work. We haven't changed the financial 13 metrics here; we haven't changed conversion costs; we 14 have not changed the markup scenarios. So this is 15 primarily a reflection of the changes we've already 16 discussed over the past several weeks. But, however, I 17 will walk through the financial metrics conversion costs 18 and markup scenarios now. 19 MR. HURST: I'm sorry. This is John Hurst with 20 Lennox. Can you repeat what you just said? You have not 21 adjusted -- 22 MR. LAU: The financial metrics, the conversion 23 costs, or the markup choices, markup scenarios. 24 So our -- so the -- 25 MR. HURST: So when you look at the GRIM

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 162 1 results, would these numbers not change as a result of -- 2 no change to financial metrics, conversion costs, and 3 markup scenarios? Is that -- 4 MR. LAU: So the results are different because 5 the MPC (manufacturer production costs) and shipment 6 volumes have changed. 7 MR. HURST: Okay. 8 MR. LAU: Did I understand your question? 9 MS. MEYERS: So just one more clarifying 10 question. So if shipments -- you're saying the markup is 11 the same, regardless of what shipments do? 12 MR. LAU: No, no. The markup scenarios we 13 chose are the same; however, the markup values themselves 14 have changed. 15 MS. MEYERS: Markup values have changed. 16 MR. LAU: Right. We do two markup scenarios. 17 I'll get into it in a moment, but I'll touch upon it 18 right now. One is sort of a base-case preservation of 19 gross margin. So whatever markup manufacturers have 20 today, that we keep, and that number has not changed. 21 MR. HURST: On the declining shipments? 22 MR. LAU: Correct. 23 MR. HURST: How does that work? Just out of 24 curiosity. 25 MR. LAU: Actually, let me fast forward a

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 163 1 little bit. So there are two markup scenarios. One is 2 preservation of gross margin, and one is preservation of 3 operating profit. And in the preservation gross margin 4 scenario, what we're basically saying is that 5 manufacturers use the same gross markup percentage before 6 and after the standard. So as MPCs increase, 7 manufacturers make more revenue. And this is just that 8 manufacturers are able to pass on the full cost of 9 compliance to their customers. 10 In the lower-bound scenario, manufacturers do 11 reduce their markups to the point where the industry has 12 the same per-unit operating profit before and after the 13 standard. What this means is the manufacturers’ capital 14 base increases as a result of the standard and the 15 investments required to meet the standard. However, 16 manufacturers cannot earn additional profit from those 17 investments. 18 So one case, your markup's the same. Other 19 case, your markup's coming down, such that you make the 20 same per-unit operating profit. 21 MR. HURST: This is John Hurst from Lennox. I 22 would just submit that neither one's realistic, but -- 23 MR. LAU: Yeah, and we are willing to model 24 additional scenarios. These are, you know -- the 25 preservation margins are upper-bound; we've clear labeled

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 164 1 it that. The preservation of operating profit, you make 2 a certain dollar profit per-unit today based upon 3 competitor forces and uniqueness of your offerings, and 4 the assumption is that you will continue to be able to 5 make that markup on a per-dollar basis. 6 In other rulemakings, we've modeled things such 7 as flat pricing. In other words, you cannot raise your 8 prices at all. However, that doesn't really make sense 9 in the standard in this rule because the MPCs increase so 10 much. No one's going to sell their product at a negative 11 margin. 12 MR. RAMIREZ: Chad, I'm sorry. Is there 13 information that would be helpful for them to use? 14 MALE SPEAKER: No. 15 MR. LAU: Here, we present the financial 16 metrics. We assumed -- again, these are based off of SEC 17 filings from public manufacturers of covered products. 18 Additionally, we took those numbers and asked 19 manufacturers for feedback in their interviews, and then 20 we would markup our way by feedback. 21 Here are the conversion cost figures we used. 22 Now, in written comments, there was some consternation 23 and confusion about the conversion costs for the 24 industry. I just want to be clear that, at least for the 25 NOPR notice and in the model here, at TSL 3, we assumed

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 165 1 conversion costs of about $226 million for the industry, 2 which comes out to roughly $20.6 million per major 3 manufacturer. 4 I think there's some confusion because, in 5 addition to this conversion cost, we had added an 6 additional $12.7 million for the industry to cover CC&E. 7 And the reason for that was that, you know, these figures 8 are based off of market share feedback from industry in 9 interviews. 10 MS. MEYERS: And Chris, CC&E? 11 MR. LAU: Certification -- 12 MS. MEYERS: Got it. 13 MR. LAU: Yes, Certification, Compliance, and 14 Enforcement. 15 In interviews, we really focused on the cost to 16 redesign products that did not meet the standard, and 17 that's the feedback we received. We did not really ask 18 manufacturers for the cost of re-rating products that met 19 the standard. And so we went back and looked at what it 20 cost to -- for the actual submission process to DOE. So 21 that $12.7 million does not include R&D product testing 22 in non-DOE certification. Those costs would be rolled 23 into the $226 million figure I had cited earlier. 24 MR. WHITWELL: So this is Bob Whitwell from 25 Carrier. So really, what happens when a standard change

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 166 1 like this takes place is, you don't just redesign the 2 base-efficiency product, you have to -- manufacturers 3 have to redesign their entire product line, right? 4 Because when the base efficiency moves up, any tiering -- 5 you need to redesign in order to keep the tiering 6 situation in place. 7 So it's really -- it's redesigning everything 8 that's impacted -- every -- every product line for that 9 particular product that's impacted. 10 MR. LAU: Yeah. And so for that process you 11 just described, we're essentially assuming $226 million, 12 which is roughly $20-ish million per manufacturer over 13 the compliance period. 14 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, which I think is small -- 15 low based on our experience. Because you're looking at 16 something that's going from 6-ton up to 63-ton, multiple 17 product platforms. It's a huge, huge undertaking. 18 MR. HURST: Yeah, this is John Hurst from 19 Lennox -- 20 MR. WHITWELL: And I think -- I think we 21 indicated that in the manufacturer impact interviews back 22 in 2014, '13, whenever they were. 23 MR. HURST: I was just going to say I concur in 24 that the margin structure collapses in the process as 25 well.

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 167 1 MR. LAU: So I think this would be a -- so the 2 way -- in interviews, it's nice because we talk about the 3 specific pieces of equipment when it comes to capital 4 conversion costs, and we talk about the specific 5 man-hours related to a single platform. Like who, how 6 many, and how long, in terms of product conversion costs. 7 Obviously, that type of discussion is harder in 8 this forum. However, there's -- if you want to give a 9 little bit more specific feedback in terms of how to 10 scale these costs, you know, we're going to need to rerun 11 this model again to reflect the revisions in shipments 12 that Greg's still working on. So it would be an 13 opportune time to revise the conversion costs, also. 14 MS. HOOTMAN: Jill Hootman from Trane. And I 15 agree, we'll have to relook at those. I just want to 16 understand one thing on 74. So again, in this TSL 1, 17 like you have capital conversion of $15 million there. 18 That's $15 million over the base case? 19 MR. LAU: That's correct. So these are -- 20 MS. HOOTMAN: They're not cumulative, 39 -- the 21 next one is 39 against the base case? 22 MR. LAU: That's correct. 23 MS. HOOTMAN: Okay. So as Bob was saying, when 24 we have multiple platforms and each one has to get 25 ratcheted up, there is some cumulation here that is

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 168 1 really not really being accounted for. 2 MR. LAU: I think it is . . . it's just how 3 it's Presented, right? 4 MS. HOOTMAN: Well, no. You can triple, 5 quadruple, or times seven this, at least. So I think -- 6 I agree with John and Bob. It's severely underestimated. 7 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp from Goodman. Like I 8 said, when we did our -- participated in the MIA, our 9 responses were only for minimum efficiency product. And 10 as to what is (inaudible) . . . and you're going to have 11 a new ASHRAE 90.1 values that are higher than the 12 industry minimum standard. So we were redesigning a 13 complete product line, everything. So the cost would be 14 much higher than what we reported. 15 Our total cost would be much higher than what 16 was reported at MIA. Because during the MIA (inaudible), 17 we were only interested in the specific values for the 18 base -- the minimum efficiency. 19 MR. deLASKI: Can you say that again? I just 20 had a follow-up to that. 21 MR. THARP: The information that we provided -- 22 the questions as asked and what we provided were 23 specifically for the new minimum efficiency. 24 So if EL 3 were -- was selected, what we 25 provided was only our costs only associated with EL 3

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 169 1 products. But in reality, at that point in time when EL 2 3 goes into effect, ASHRAE 90.1 might be EL 4, so we have 3 to go in and redesign all of our ASHRAE 90.1 products. 4 And so those are additional costs that weren't provided 5 that are not -- I think are not necessarily accounted for 6 that the manufacturer has. 7 So what I'm saying is, this total of average 8 conversion cost per manufacturer does not include the -- 9 all costs associated with the change in an energy 10 conservation standard, because the market changes 11 drastically whenever a new energy conservation standard 12 comes into play. Does that help? 13 MR. deLASKI: I think so. I think what you're 14 saying is, as I just say it back to you, that you're 15 redesigning -- individuals redesign the whole product 16 line, or Bob -- so you redesign -- whatever the standard 17 is, you're going to redesign the whole product line. 18 MS. HOOTMAN: Well, yeah. I mean, you have -- 19 typically in these, we might have two or three platforms: 20 good, better, best. Some people call them those kind of 21 things, right? So if the good level is now going up to 22 something else, better and best have to go up. So you 23 have to redesign the other two in order to make the 24 differential that happens between the two of them. 25 At the same time, an ASHRAE standard might be

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 170 1 coming in that we have to literally do (or maybe it's off 2 by one or two years) so that reinvestment has to happen, 3 as well as, yes, we are putting commercial warm air 4 furnaces and commercial unitary together, but you aren't 5 necessarily synching up the rest of the stuff that is 6 happening, all 22 rulemakings in this industry. 7 So you know, we have a substantial amount of 8 redesign, and it's -- I mean, some engineers sit back 9 there and think it's great, job security, but I don't 10 know if it's job security. We're going to exit things. 11 MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel. Plus, the 12 refrigerant change potential out there, too. 13 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. 14 MR. DOPPEL: Just add that one little thing. 15 MS. HOOTMAN: Not potential, just when. 16 MR. WHITWELL: And in the absence of 17 regulation, what would be the normal time frame in which 18 you'd see that kind of redesign? 19 MS. HOOTMAN: Well, I mean ASHRAE is every 20 three years, you know. So we've -- we already have that 21 happening. 22 MR. WHITWELL: So every three years, ASHRAE has 23 the potential to be revised because it triggered this 24 kind of need for reinvestment? 25 MS. HOOTMAN: Right.

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 171 1 MR. MISLAK: Well, and that kind of brings up a 2 question -- 3 MS. HOOTMAN: And certainly other efficiencies, 4 consumption for energy efficiency push those as far as 5 incentive programs. 6 MR. MISLAK: So Andrew, that brings up a 7 question that that kind of breaks up the cycle of every 8 three years with ASHRAE, because we don't know what this 9 is going to be and what the impact is going to be between 10 the interaction, right, with ASHRAE. That's an unknown. 11 MR. WHITWELL: Thank you. 12 MR. STARR: So I have a question. So TSL 1 is 13 the 90.1-2013 levels. Is that right? 14 So in theory, if you were at TSL 1 for 2019, 15 that's where you're going to be if there was no 16 regulations in theory, right, or not? 17 Is that -- in other words, just say we -- or 18 yeah, that's 2016, but you wouldn't convert all of your 19 models until maybe 2019. Or would that -- 20 MS. HOOTMAN: That's a choice. 21 MR. WHITWELL: Well, ASHRAE 90.1's effected. 22 The ASHRAE 90.1-2013 standards are effective January 1, 23 2016, for the States that have adopted that as a 24 standard. 25 MR. STARR: Right.

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 172 1 MR. WHITWELL: So manufacturers are getting 2 ready for that right now. 3 MR. STARR: So they have some models, but 4 probably not all of them. So I think it was Dick Lord 5 that was maybe saying it takes another three years before 6 the whole market is really up to -- most the products are 7 up to the level because the codes don't adopt them for 8 another three years in a lot of places. 9 Or, I don't know. Is that -- would it be a 10 good assumption to assume by 2019, absent anything else, 11 you would be up to TSL 1, or that wouldn't be a good 12 assumption? 13 MR. WHITWELL: I can't speak for other 14 manufacturers, but for our company, we try to be ready at 15 the time it's effective -- ASHRAE 90.1. 16 MS. HOOTMAN: I would agree with Bob. You have 17 to either go all in or not. You just pretty much -- 18 you're not going to go and go do a 10-ton and not do the 19 rest of them. 20 I mean, it just -- there's not economies of 21 scale. So you're going -- you're going to be ready for 22 1/1/2016 because that's what you think that a State Could 23 require, and if that State happens to be California, 24 Texas, or New York where the heavy populations are, 25 you're screwed if you're not there.

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 173 1 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, and California Title 24 is 2 exactly the same as ASHRAE 90.1-2013, so they're already 3 there. 4 MR. STARR: So in theory, you're geared up for 5 TSL 1 January 1st of next year. And if you're doing a 6 little planning, you would know that 2016, which is 7 coming up, which would be effective in 2019, would 8 probably be a standard level higher than TSL 1. 9 So you may be geared a little bit already for 10 some of this manufacturer impact. It's just a question 11 of where it goes beyond that, right? I mean, you don't 12 know what the future's going to be. You don't know what 13 TSL level 2019's at. 14 MR. ZENDAH: But I think -- this is Sami Zendah 15 with Emerson -- that's State-by-State adoption, right, 16 versus the law. So that's an example. 17 MR. STARR: Well -- 18 MS. HOOTMAN: True, Sami. True. 19 MR. STARR: But more my point is ... is that 20 some -- yeah, I guess you can't say across all the 21 manufacturers -- but certainly some of them are gearing 22 up most of their product lines for the year that the 23 ASHRAE standard becomes effective. But I think -- is 24 there a way -- another thought, too, is to understand 25 what those 2016 equipment efficiency levels, which might

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 174 1 be coming out soon, is there any way to know what those 2 are? It comes from AHRI, right, essentially? 3 MR. WHITWELL: No. AHRI? No. 4 MS. HOOTMAN: No. 5 MR. STARR: Oh, okay. 6 MR. CYMBALSKY: This is John from DOE. Going 7 back to the good, better, best that we were discussing, 8 and the redesign and all the costs, I think I understand 9 what you're saying. But I -- I guess I struggle with the 10 fact that the NOPR actually picked a level that would 11 continue to offer the good, better, best strategy. 12 So I guess I'm curious -- and maybe it's not 13 for every manufacturer offering in those exact IEER 14 buckets, but my understanding is that the way the ELs 15 were structured, it would leave in place the good, 16 better, best. 17 So I'm struggling with what the -- the end 18 (coughing) cost is to redesign if, in fact, those models 19 already exist today. It's just scaling up production at 20 that point. Isn't it? 21 MR. WHITWELL: No, John because -- so EL -- the 22 NOPR came in somewhat above our better, right? Right 23 around our better; some are above; some are below, or 24 some are on. But the difference is, that if that becomes 25 the standard, that is going to be your volume product.

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 175 1 MR. CYMBALSKY: Right. Well, I get that, but 2 it's already engineered, right? 3 MR. WHITWELL: So it's -- there -- we have a 4 product, but if it's your volume product, you're going to 5 -- you're going to want to make sure you're optimizing 6 your cost for it, right? I mean, we optimize our cost 7 for the volume product, and then we -- we use that -- 8 that platform for our tiered up strategy, right? 9 So it's not necessarily going to be the same 10 product that we sell if -- let's say if EL 3, you know, 11 based on the NOPR, if that became the national minimum, 12 it wouldn't -- it would not be the same product that we 13 sell today. We would be looking to optimize the cost of 14 that at that new level, so it's going to be different 15 product. 16 MR. WINNINGHAM: And this is Dave at Allied. 17 The feature set between a base minimum efficiency and 18 kind of the step-up products is -- can be significantly 19 different. And your design approach towards that, I 20 don't think you could just take that product and say, 21 "Oh, I've got a product that meets that efficiency," and 22 succeed in the market. 23 MR. WHITWELL: You can do that, but -- 24 MR. CYMBALSKY: Not for long. 25 MR. WHITWELL: -- it's not going to be a

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 176 1 successful strategy. 2 MR. CYMBALSKY: I guess I was comparing it to 3 the last meeting with the residential furnaces where we 4 proposed '92, and then it left '95 and '97, like the 5 good, better, best strategy. I didn't hear any comment 6 on that being not appropriate, so maybe I made a little 7 bit of a leap of faith here, but okay. 8 MR. LAU: So that is actually a worthwhile 9 suggestion. You know, in other rule makings, 10 particularly for freezer products, we've often done a 11 good, better, best markup. And as the standard goes up, 12 it leaves less and less room for that good, better, best 13 differentiation, and we see a compression of markups. At 14 some point, you see a fallout of the best, because you 15 can't differentiate by efficiency. 16 So if we had feedback that good, better, best 17 would be appropriate here, and we get a little indication 18 of what the good, better, best levels are in the range of 19 markups there, we could also build that in. That would 20 be a non-trivial amount of work, but it could be done. 21 MS. MEYERS: So Chris, this is Karen. So where 22 do we start getting into cumulative regulatory burden on 23 all of this stuff? 24 MR. LAU: Sure. So I mean, this was -- the 25 intent here was to focus on INPV. It's not a NOPR

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 177 1 presentation per se, so we're trying to present the 2 numbers that we thought people would find useful in their 3 negotiation. 4 MS. MEYERS: Well, maybe the question is better 5 directed to you, John. I mean, where does the Department 6 start bringing the cumulative regulatory burden, 7 specifically on this industry, into all these discussions 8 that we're having? 9 MR. CYMBALSKY: So it was in the NOPR already. 10 You can see the numbers there. We don't have it in the 11 presentation today, but as we finalize -- 12 MS. MEYERS: What do you calculate as -- as -- 13 I mean, how do you determine whether it's acceptable or 14 not for an industry? What is the criteria that the 15 Department looks at? 16 MR. CYMBALSKY: I don't think there's anything 17 written down for the levels. 18 MS. MEYERS: So it could be -- it could be two 19 Trillion, and it would be okay as long as you calculate 20 it, or it could be $1 million? It doesn't really matter 21 in the whole -- 22 MR. CYMBALSKY: You know, I'm not going to -- 23 MS. MEYERS: I mean, there's nowhere that's -- 24 I mean, I think that's -- you know, I struggle with that, 25 but, you know, where is it defined as what's acceptable

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 178 1 and what's not acceptable, and should it be defined? 2 MR. deLASKI: Karen, this is Andrew. I mean, 3 it's a good question, and it's one that sort of could, I 4 guess, be applied to any one of the seven factors in the 5 statute. I mean, the statute calls for the Secretary to 6 do the balance of seven factors in determining what's 7 technologically feasible and what's economically 8 justified. It's a balancing of those factors, and that's 9 what's been done for 30-odd years. 10 And you're looking, you know, is there ever a 11 hard, true, okay if you cross that threshold then you 12 don't do it, right? 13 MS. MEYERS: Well, I think it's a little -- 14 yeah, I think -- 15 MR. deLASKI: It also depends on -- 16 MS. MEYERS: I think it's an important 17 question. Because I think that the spot we're at today is 18 very different than the place we've been in the last 30 19 years. The pace has certainly accelerated, and the 20 efficiency levels that we are getting to are requiring, 21 you know, are certainly having a significant increase on 22 the type of conversions costs that manufacturers are 23 going to incur to be able to achieve those levels. 24 So I mean -- I mean, if you ask me, you know, I 25 think we waste -- that balance is way, way off. But, you

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 179 1 know, I think there needs to be -- you know, I just guess 2 -- you know, I want to understand. If the Department is 3 supposed to balance that, what are they considering as -- 4 as, you know, what's an acceptable balance and what's a 5 not acceptable balance? So -- 6 MR. deLASKI: So I think the very endeavor that 7 we're on right now, and in fact, I think the advocates in 8 part agreed to do this in part to try to work with you to 9 mitigate some of the burden that you specifically have 10 called out about the effective dates for furnaces and air 11 conditioners. And I know your list goes beyond that, 12 right? 13 MS. MEYERS: Yeah. 14 MR. deLASKI: So we're around this table in 15 part to address the concerns that you've raised. In 16 large part, that's why we're here, to try to come up with 17 -- to align the effective dates for these two products so 18 that we can help to reduce regulatory burden in that 19 matter, and that's why we're talking. 20 It's not the -- I know it's not the whole story 21 that you want to hear, but that's part of why we came to 22 this board. 23 MS. MEYERS: You know -- and, I mean, I'm 24 really just asking the question, I'm trying to determine, 25 you know ... we calculate regulatory burden, but then, I

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 180 1 mean, it really is just a question. I mean, what do we 2 consider going, you know, that this cumulative amount is 3 -- way exceeds what it should, and what is acceptable? 4 And I really am -- this is a question I am asking because 5 it all ... you know, we start getting into the financial 6 impact of all of this. This is where we, as businesses, 7 have to make some really critical decisions. And that's 8 the part of the stuff that we're getting to is, you know, 9 what is -- this is -- these are real dollars. 10 MR. deLASKI: I understand. And from my 11 perspective, part of what this committee now is tasked 12 with doing is coming up with a joint recommendation 13 hopefully, where the minds around this table work to come 14 up with an approach that balances these factors in a way 15 that we can come up with a recommendation for the 16 Department. 17 MR. WHITWELL: But part of the issue is that 18 it's not just this, right? We've got this one. We've 19 got fans and blowers which could impact the same product. 20 We don't know where that's going to go yet. 21 We got the -- the FDA is going to do something 22 with refrigerant sometime before we go through the next 23 -- EPA, sorry. 24 MS. HOOTMAN: Although the FDA -- 25 MR. WHITWELL: FDA is probably going to do

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 181 1 something, you know. There's -- it's not just this one, 2 Andrew. It's all of them, and, you know, I think Karen's 3 -- it's a good question. I don't know what the answer is 4

-- 5 MS. HOOTMAN: And we're all -- and a lot of us 6 are all residential makers, and we're not -- we're not 7 immune to the other stuff that's going on with 8 residential, as well. 9 MR. deLASKI: And we also look to the benefits 10 out of the equation. So what's happening, in terms of 11 what's happening on the impact in energy consumption, 12 (inaudible). 13 MR. CYMBALSKY: And again, going back to 14 furnaces, the reason the Department proposed 92 and not 15 95 was cumulative regulatory burden. That was the reason 16 stated in the proposal for not choosing a higher level 17 that met the statutory thresholds. 18 So we do -- I mean, it is very important. Is 19 there a hard and fast number? I mean, you know, 20 certainly haven't stated it if there is one. But we do 21 parse the data and analysis in percentage terms, in 22 dollar terms, so that we can get a good readout on how 23 it's going to impact the regulated industry. It's 24 obviously very important. It's one of the factors. So 25

--

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 182 1 MR. MISLAK: But the energy is never saved if 2 the product isn't sold because it's too expensive, and I 3 think that's what we're -- what we're looking at. 4 MR. CYMBALSKY: And that's why we have an 11 5 percent drop in shipments in some of these ELs. 6 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. And just because 7 we are making a record, at least on the issue of 8 cumulative regulatory burden as it extends out to other 9 agencies, I'm proud of our record as advocates in trying 10 to work with industry to document the benefits of 11 efficiency in terms of global warming by emphasizing 12 LCCP. 13 I'm proud of our efforts that we have been 14 making to coordinate on the residential side effective 15 dates for refrigerant change out with those standards. 16 It's a matter being discussed today. 17 So where we have limited influence, we're 18 trying to use that to try to minimize the regulatory 19 burden. 20 MR. LAU: Are we ready for the results? So the 21 two markup scenarios result in a -- the two markups 22 result in an upper-bound and lower-bound, or a high 23 scenario and low scenario. And so the first table, we 24 see the base-case INPV is about $1.4 trillion. I can see 25 how that -- those numbers are effected in the high and

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 183 1 low case. 2 The second table shows the absolute dollar 3 amount, change IMPB. And where I tend to focus my 4 attention is that third table, which is the percentage 5 change in INPV as the standard increases. 6 MR. SACHS: Chris, I'm sorry. Did I hear 7 billion or trillion? 8 MR. LAU: Sorry. These are -- it's $1.3 9 Billion, and here's that same data in graphical format. 10 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. So again, I mean, you've 11 got to look at the cumulative impact, right? So this is 12 one rule, and then you've got the other rules that could 13 have similar-type negative impacts, right? So -- 14 MR. LAU: Well, when we look at the other 15 rules, you're talking about other products, and you're 16 bringing additional revenue and additional profit. So 17 you're expanding your definition of the industry. 18 MR. WHITWELL: No, there are other things on 19 this product as well, right? 20 MS. HOOTMAN: They're all in the same product. 21 Commercial fans and blowers on the same product, 22 commercial warm air furnace, the same product. So it's 23 the same dollars. You better not be double and 24 triple-counting the same dollars. 25 MR. LAU: We're not. So for example in the

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 184 1 warm air furnaces, the MPC confirms the components, and 2 there's no overlapping components there, right? That has 3 a separate markup and a separate pricing structure. To 4 be honest, that speaks to the challenge of cumulative 5 regulatory burden. 6 Do you deem each standard or each rule 7 cost-effective as you add on the different rules? Right, 8 you have the -- you're increasing the definition of the 9 industry, and as you're increasing -- expanding your 10 definition of the cost of the industry. And so if each 11 rule by itself is justified, then the cumulative impact 12 is justified. 13 MR. CYMBALSKY: I think for fans and blowers, 14 we would -- to the extent that it almost reminds me of 15 the furnace and the furnace fan rules, right, because 16 almost, I mean, one is a component of the other. I mean, 17 not exactly. But we'll -- we'll cross that bridge -- 18 MS. HOOTMAN: And you have to redesign 19 refrigeration because of that. In this case, you will 20 have to redesign the refrigeration in order to meet the 21 fan, because now the fan will work differently and/or 22 metric or whatever. 23 MR. CYMBALSKY: Well, maybe. 24 MS. HOOTMAN: Maybe, not knowing yet where it's 25 going to go. So the refrigeration will likely change, as

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 185 1 well. 2 MR. CYMBALSKY: So we can't change the outcome 3 of what's there. But my understanding of what's been -- 4 what's been put out in the fans and blowers NODA is that 5 there wouldn't be any fans coming off the market 6 necessarily. But that's different. We'll deal with that 7 in that -- 8 MALE SPEAKER: (Inaudible.) 9 MR. CYMBALSKY: Right. The approach that 10 they're taking, to me, is not necessarily going to have 11 the impact that was stated. But let's let that play out 12 a little more. 13 You know, we'll be in this -- we'll be 14 negotiating that Wednesday and Thursday for all the folks 15 who want to stick around. 16 MS. MEYERS: So Chris, walk me through this, 17 just this chart. So let's start where we have no new 18 standards case, and we go down to TSL 1. So if I want to 19 preserve my operating profit, and let's just say it's $1 20 million, you're saying that my company would then have to 21 do what? 22 MR. LAU: Well, first of all, let's -- you 23 know, I think -- let me recharacterize something Katie 24 said earlier. The MIA is an industry analysis, right? 25 We're using average MPCs, average conversion costs, so I

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 186 1 cannot speak to any specific company -- 2 MS. MEYERS: Just say I'm the only company -- 3 let's say the average company. So I'm the only company 4

-- 5 MR. LAU: So we did an engineering analysis, 6 right? What did it take to get from baseline to EL 1? 7 You know, those are the assumptions that were made in 8 terms of what the product changes are. 9 And so the engineering analysis focuses on what 10 is the incremental cost, and the MIA scales that up to an 11 industry level based on shipments. And then we also 12 layer on the conversion costs, sort of the upfront costs. 13 MS. MEYERS: This is a (inaudible). 14 MR. LAU: So if -- if you believe what's 15 happened in -- if you generally agree with the 16 engineering analysis numbers, and you at least somewhat 17 believe the shipment numbers, right, what this is saying 18 is, if you don't change your pricing -- if you're able to 19 not change your price -- your markup at all, then there's 20 a 2.7 percent gain in terms of industry value, right? So 21 each sees 2.7 percent increase in discounted cash flow 22 over a 30-year period. 23 If drop your markup, and actually, I think I 24 have the backup slide that shows the assumed markup 25 values. Right, if you drop your markup such that you're

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 187 1 making the same dollar amount per unit, then you'll -- 2 then you'll have a drop -- an 8 percent of industry 3 value. 4 MR. STARR: And what if you can't make that? 5 MR. LAU: Then it will be lower. 6 MR. STARR: So there's a lower than low? 7 MR. LAU: Well, you have to -- I mean, so if 8 you could provide a different forecast of markups, we 9 could incorporate that into the model, you know. We are 10 certainly open to that, but in order to at least provide 11 bounds, we had to make certain assumptions. 12 MR. deLASKI: Chris, this is Andrew. One 13 question I have is, I think we heard earlier that 90.1, 14 2016 is sort of baked in already. 15 MR. LAU: Right. So I think the -- where Louis 16 was going with that was that conversion costs for TSL 1 17 should essentially be zero. Again, our conversion cost, 18 we strictly took what the manufacturers told us in 19 interviews, and we kind of sanity-checked those numbers, 20 and so we wanted to go with that. 21 Also, those interviews were several years ago, 22 so that also adds a little bit of a wrinkle here for the 23 -- actually, I guess I didn't say this earlier, we did 24 escalate those numbers for inflation. So I think if you 25 look at the numbers here, the conversion costs, they're

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 188 1 just -- they may be like 3 percent higher than in the 2 NOPR. 3 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp with Goodman. I guess 4 a couple comments from our side. Again, just going back 5 to the conversion costs that we supplied were only for 6 the new base-case models or the minimum efficiency 7 products. 8 Also, based on the chart you just showed, we 9 don't think that we would be able to maintain those 10 markups at those various levels. I need to go back and 11 run those by others within my organization, but I think 12 that those are on the high side. 13 So once you get to TSL 2 or two-and-a-half, 14 they're going to drop much, much, much more than one 15 point each. So that's just my estimate. I need to 16 verify with others, but that would be our feedback. 17 MR. LAU: Just based on the short conversation 18 we've had, it sounds like something along a three-tier 19 markup and having the ability to show that compression of 20 markups would be valuable here. We didn't necessarily 21 get enough data to build that when we did our NOPR 22 interviews. 23 So if you folks want to have a short 24 conversation with me after this meeting, perhaps we can 25 start pulling together some of that data. Or

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 189 1 alternatively, if you want to provide some sort of what 2 you think would be an appropriate markup for each 3 equipment class, that's also a possibility. 4 MR. STARR: So this is Louis with NEEA. I 5 mean, I guess from my perspective, I'm looking at this as 6 TSL 1 is January 2016. In theory, this regulation 7 wouldn't go until 2019, so you're three years ahead of 8 the game. If I just had to make a wild guess, I would 9 guess that the 2019 values that you would have to meet by 10 an ASHRAE 90.1-2016 would be a TSL 2. 11 So in my mind, without a DOE ever stepping in 12 the room, we would be at TSL 2 by 2019 already. I'm kind 13 of having some problems seeing past that, but if you guys 14 could help me understand that, that would be helpful. 15 MS. HOOTMAN: Go ahead. 16 MR. WINNINGHAM: Well, I think -- Louis, to a 17 certain -- this is Dave with Allied. I think to a 18 certain extent, what you say is probably true. But those 19 conversion costs are real, and the normal processes that 20 we had, in the past, been of the mindset that the -- the 21 levels that come out of 90.1 become the Federal standards 22 and had been gearing towards that process. 23 This NOPR really was somewhat of a surprise to 24 us in that we're talking about significantly higher 25 levels in a time frame, you know -- you know, much closer

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 190 1 than -- 2 MR. STARR: So it's more the unexpected that's 3 the problem. I guess I can see where your concern is, 4 because if you think ... Well, let's just say we agree on 5 level, but who knows what that is, but then ASHRAE comes 6 out, you know, based upon, they come out with another set 7 of levels that you would potentially have to meet. But 8 one might say that, I don't know that ASHRAE would 9 necessarily do that if they know that there's Federal 10 standards. I mean, I don't know. That's -- 11 MR. WHITWELL: I think ASHRAE doesn't know what 12 to do right now. 13 MR. WINNINGHAM: Yeah. I think that's a key 14 point that right now, we have a serious issues within the 15 ASHRAE process as it relates to these type of products 16 and, are there some additional fallouts to other product 17 categories, building codes. If we significantly stray 18 from the process that has been working and it's part of 19 this process, well, yeah. 20 MR. ZENDAH: So Louis, another way -- Sami 21 Zendah of Emerson. I mean, I think maybe two weeks ago, 22 a slide was shown here where I think only three States 23 have adopted ASHRAE 90.1-2013. 24 If you think about it the other way, if every 25 State would adopt that by 1/1/16, can you imagine the

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 191 1 savings that's associated with that? I just don't know 2 how that would compare to this. But, you know, you're 3 thinking 19. I'm thinking, if the State would allow -- I 4 mean, yeah, that's one way to look at it, too. 5 MR. STARR: Yeah, it's how much of your market 6 share is actually -- how much the market share by 2016 is 7 actually at TSL 1 is actually what you're getting at, 8 right? 9 I think with some companies, maybe Carrier, for 10 example, they may have most of their product line there, 11 but maybe other people do not have their product lines 12 there. So having an understanding of how many of these 13 products would really be at these certain TSL levels 14 would actually be helpful in where we end up on these, 15 perhaps. 16 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. And just as I 17 think about things, one of the fundamental differences -- 18 substantive differences between 90.1 and this process, 19 the DOE rule, is that 90.1 includes a number of important 20 prescriptive features. And the question in this context 21 is that those are very important for energy savings. To 22 what extent are they helpful in product differentiation 23 given the high levels at the -- in this current DOE 24 process? 25 MS. HOOTMAN: I don't know that I understand

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 192 1 the question. 2 MR. STARR: I think what he's asking is, are 3 there prescriptive measures that would actually get you 4 energy savings that are accounted for in 90.1 that you 5 could make part of the standards, I think is where he's 6 going with that. 7 MR. SACHS: Well, my question was actually more 8 open-ended than that, but it was aimed at what John has 9 referred to as "collapse of markups," or "the 10 co-modification," and to what extent the lack of the 11 prescriptive features in the DOE process allows or 12 provides a platform for building differentiation through 13 measures reflected in the base requirements in 90.1. 14 MR. STARR: I think like your three-stage 15 cooling over certain size, you're required to have 16 three-stage prescriptively by 90.1. You're supposed to 17 have three stages of cooling. That would be an example 18 of something and certain equipment size -- 19 MR. SACHS: That's required. 20 MS. HOOTMAN: That's required. 21 MR. SACHS: To what extent are 90.1's 22 prescriptives taking away the opportunity to 23 differentiate those features? 24 MR. WHITWELL: I don't know how to measure it. 25 MS. MEYERS: That's why I'm struggling.

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 193 1 MR. WHITWELL: It does take some of that away 2 -- Bob Whitwell from Carrier. It certainly would take 3 some of that away. I don't know how to quantify it. It 4 also would lead manufacturers to go down certain paths, 5 as opposed to innovating in other directions, right? 6 MR. SACHS: Thank you. It's -- so what I'm 7 taking away is that there's an awful lot of uncertainty 8 which would lead me to believe that manufacturers will -- 9 are likely to head in divergent directions exploring 10 that. 11 MR. CYMBALSKY: Well, that's generally why the 12 performance path was preferred all along, right? I mean, 13 it gives each manufacturer a different potential path to 14 get to a level. And DOE doesn't tell you, "Do X, Y, and 15 Z." And yeah, innovation is, you know, it's a trademark 16 of this country, as far as I know, and I'm hoping it 17 continues. 18 But back to the ASHRAE thing. So I mean, the 19 statute's pretty clear about DOE's responsibility to 20 adopt or go higher that ASHRAE depending on the analysis, 21 and that's why we're here today, right? That's -- this 22 is what we're negotiating around is that ASHRAE did its 23 -- well, in this case, didn't do its thing. But the law 24 said that DOE should undertake the rule. So we're not 25 doing anything beyond what the statute, and thereby the

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 194 1 law, told us to do. 2 And so that's why we're here today to -- well, 3 tomorrow –- to start hopefully negotiating around the 4 proposal. But as far as ASHRAE goes, I mean, moving 5 forward, I mean, the statute says what it says. It's -- 6 you know, except for the AEMTCA amendments that came in 7 at the end of, what? 2013, you know, its been the same 8 way. 9 But, you know, this analysis clearly leads to a 10 higher proposal relative to what may have come out of 11 ASHRAE, but I don't see that process... Unless something 12 changes in the statute, that process is written down in 13 the law, so we're going to continue to do that, and, you 14 know, it's about the analysis. It's all about the 15 numbers. So if the numbers for other rules may have 16 clearly pointed to adopt ASHRAE and not go higher,but 17 again, it's a rule-by-rule basis. It's what the analysis 18 points to. 19 MR. LAU: So I had a few more closing comments 20 before I wrap up this MIA section. 21 You know, the written comments from the NOPR 22 kind of focus on three different areas that would affect 23 the calculations in the GRIM. Certainly, there were some 24 conversion costs. What I'll say with conversion costs is 25 that we tried hard to listen to what the industry said.

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 195 1 We're actually pretty good, I think, at capital 2 conversion costs because we can tour your facilities, we 3 can estimate what design options are required, and we can 4 estimate the costs of new equipment, tooling, changes in 5 the facilities pretty well. 6 On the product conversion costs side, it's a 7 little bit more challenging in two ways, one: Your design 8 process is probably different than the design process we 9 use, which is, you know, that what we're focusing on is 10 how to design a minimally-compliant product. 11 Two: Often, the feedback on a product 12 conversion costs side is high level, and it doesn't give 13 us enough detail to do a validation. And three: Based 14 on what I heard today, if you do provide feedback on 15 conversion costs and product conversion costs in 16 particular, it would be helpful -- how do I phrase this? 17 When you redesign a product, I know your 18 product manager has a whole list of features that they're 19 itching to get into the product when it comes up for 20 redesign. But in some ways, we need to separate some of 21 those nice features from what is actually -- from the 22 changes that are specific to the DOE Energy Conservation 23 Standard, right? And I know that's very difficult to do, 24 but that would help us better understand the cost of the 25 standard.

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 196 1 MR. WHITWELL: I understand why you would want 2 that, but it's not so straightforward. 3 MR. LAU: I said that with a straight face, but 4 I understand the challenges. 5 The other two issues that came up were the 6 alignment of effective dates between CWAFs and CUACs, I 7 think it is. (Simultaneous speaking.) CUAC, I -- I 8 think that's part -- those are issues that are open for 9 negotiation over the course of discussion. 10 And the final issue was one that focused on our 11 employment numbers which, it has been suggested, are not 12 quite reflective of the industry. I'll be honest -- 13 we're still working on this. You know, typically, if our 14 MPCs are right and our labor percentages are right, these 15 numbers come out pretty well. In this case, they didn't. 16 But since MPCs are opportunity involved, we haven't had a 17 chance to quite dig into this one yet. So that's on our 18 to-do. 19 MR. WINNINGHAM: Chris, when will we have 20 something on that? Because this is something that I 21 think is -- is very critical to the analysis. Because 22 the total number that you have for employment here is 23 probably less than a few -- a couple of the manufacturers 24 that are sitting at the table. 25 MR. LAU: Right, right. I think the number

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 197 1 that we had -- I don't know the exact number. I think it 2 was 1,000 to 2,000. I think that's fair -- 3 MR. WINNINGHAM: 1,085. 4 MR. LAU: Yeah, I think that was fairly 5 understated. I guess the only thing I would say is, keep 6 in mind that that's direct employment, so it's people in 7 the production line that touch the product, right, 8 doesn't include -- 9 MR. WINNINGHAM: But understand -- 10 MR. LAU: Yes, I recognize it's still fairly 11 understated, and we're working to try to figure out how 12 to resolve that. 13 MALE SPEAKER: That's not fairly understated, 14 it's way off. 15 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah, and I know we're kind of 16 laughing about it, but in one plant alone -- and I have 17 five that work on this product – in one plant alone, 18 direct labor, 1,085, I have more than that. So I don't 19 understand. I can go times five, and then every other 20 manufacturer so -- you are not -- you're not just 21 somewhat off; you're hugely off. 22 MR. LAU: Right. And so part of that may be 23 the -- you know, it's an artificial differentiation in 24 your minds. But for the Department, commercial air 25 conditioners, commercial furnaces are different. So it's

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 198 1 like, you have to subtract off the percentage of time 2 that those people spend building commercial warm air 3 furnaces. 4 MS. HOOTMAN: They go on the same line. I 5 don't know how you do that. 6 MR. HURST: Well you count one arm. 7 MR. LAU: Well, I mean your line does run, 8 yeah. I mean, I'm sure your operations people have some 9 -- could potentially put together some sort of estimate 10 of number of hours put together, furnace, and 11 installation time into the cabinet. 12 MS. HOOTMAN: Sure, and I would still place in 13 a guess that -- 14 MR. LAU: We're understated. I recognize that. 15 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. 16 MR. CYMBALSKY: So there was one more issue -- 17 we've still got another. We need it for the transcript, 18 Detlef, to clarify what we were going to do with those 19 30-ton units, the heat pump conversions, because he 20 didn't pick it up on the recording, apparently. Could 21 have been me, but someone was laughing too loud in the 22 microphone to catch it. So just a quick recap for the 23 transcript. 24 MR. WESTPHALEN: Yeah, sure. This is for the 25 IEER differentials for the gas heat units. And so my

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 199 1 understanding is that Jim of Carrier will conduct the 2 analysis for the seven-and-a-half and 15-ton units, maybe 3 with some help of others, and that he will provide some 4 input for us to conduct that analysis for the 30-ton 5 units, which we'll then present to the group. 6 MR. THARP: Along those lines, I'll just -- 7 we've reviewed some of our information, and we have at 8 least one model where there's a 1.2 IEER delta between a 9 gas heat and electronic heat model. 1.2. 10 MR. WESTPHALEN: Okay. 11 MR. STARR: So I have a question. It will help 12 me understand the AHRI data that was provided to the 13 consultants. Was there information at a level enough to 14 understand the three bins: The seven-and-a-half, 15, and 15 30, to know the shipment-weighted analysis of how many 16 units at given IEER levels for those three bins? Or is 17 that information not -- is there any way to understand 18 that from the data that was provided or not? 19 MR. MISLAK: I mean, what we provided were 20 actual shipment numbers, not shipment-weighted numbers. 21 MR. STARR: So they know how much of 12.5 in 22 the seven-and-a-half-ton unit, they know how many units 23 are there? 24 MR. MISLAK: Yes. Yes. 25 MR. STARR: Okay.

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 200 1 MR. deLASKI: And that what's on the record. 2 Is that right? So we can get that submitted if we want 3 to look at that. Is that right? 4 MR. MISLAK: Sure. 5 MR. WINNINGHAM: This is Dave with Allied. The 6 only part that's missing is where there's asterisks in 7 certain columns where the information couldn't be 8 divulged. 9 MR. SACHS: The question of the -- this is 10 Harvey. The question of the asterisk, for those who 11 haven't been around that on the advocate's side, I 12 believe that's been standard practice since the industry 13 reporting was started. This is not unique to this 14 process. Pardon me? 15 MALE SPEAKER: We don't get to see it either. 16 MS. MEYERS: So for that asterisk number, 17 individual manufacturers don't see that number, either. 18 It's just standard practice. So Nick is the only one who 19 knows. Actually, he doesn't even know it. Shannon is 20 the only one who knows. 21 MR. STARR: Well, one of the reasons I ask 22 about that information, if you think about you're 23 redesigning your equipment and you understand what tier 24 levels you're at to get your good, better, and best, you 25 have to know where your volumes are, and so you switch

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 201 1 that up. So if you understand where -- so what did we do 2 in our own stuff, he took the AHRI database, and we put 3 out all the models that were available. Well, that shows 4 you the models, but it doesn't show you how many pieces 5 of the equipment are actually our given IEER models, 6 which I think that would be helpful in understanding 7 where the market's at in terms of, is there a lot of 8 stuff really at the borderline, and then it shifts up 9 more? Or actually, maybe, if you could describe that, 10 that would be helpful in describing what the general 11 trends in the margin are in the market. 12 MR. WHITWELL: Well, actually, what Greg showed 13 this morning showed -- the data was in there. 14 MR. WINNINGHAM: This is Dave with Allied. 15 Eric, before we break here today, just had one question 16 regarding your kind of statement around multiple metrics. 17 It's my understanding that, you know, DOE cited 42 USC 63 18 11(8), that EPCA requires a DOE-established energy 19 conservation standards using a single metric for these 20 products. What has changed since that assessment in the 21 NOPR that -- 22 MR. STAS: Eric Stas, DOE. I mean, I think 23 what I pointed you to in the statement is the -- is the 24 other times we used the multiple metric was under our 25 direct final rule authority of 6295(p)(4). So if the

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 202 1 group follows a similar course, then we would be able to 2 follow a similar course. 3 MR. RAMIREZ: Anything else for today? 4 MR. deLASKI: I'll just add, in my experience, 5 Dave, when we negotiated previously the residential air 6 conditioner standards, including the EER for the 7 southwest region, the Department adopted that using that 8 using the DFR process. So I think it was a pretty 9 similar situation, if not identical. 10 MS. MEYERS: So I've got a question on that, 11 Andrew. The NAECA never specifically said that it should 12 be only one metric, and EPCA does. That's my 13 understanding. Maybe I'm wrong. 14 MR. deLASKI: Yeah, I don't -- 15 MS. MEYERS: So NAECA never disallowed two -- 16 MR. deLASKI: You're making me drudge through 17 some pretty ancient memories here. But I'm -- you know, 18 my understanding is what -- my understanding of what -- 19 my read on what Eric has said to us today is that a DFR 20 gives a pretty broad latitude potentially, right? 21 MS. MEYERS: I understand that. I understand 22 that. 23 MR. deLASKI: And the parts of the difference 24 between those two situations, I'm not sure are necessary 25 for us. And we probably could do it, but I'm not sure

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 203 1 it's necessary, and I hesitate to get into the 2 comparison. 3 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. Eric may grimace 4 when I say that, but my interpretation of the writing on 5 the wall was what is not prohibited might be permitted. 6 And if we all agree, they're in a hard spot for saying 7 no. 8 MR. RAMIREZ: All right. Let's just take care 9 of a few closing issues, then. Is there anyone for 10 public comment? And we're opening it up to those online 11 or in the back. Going once, going twice. 12 All right. Then for tomorrow, we're starting 13 at 9:00 o'clock. We're going to be in room 1E-245, and 14 we're starting at 9:00 o'clock to give some additional 15 time for a proposal to be put together and presented at 16 that time. 17 Is it -- are there other items on the agenda, 18 or is that going to take the remainder of the day in 19 reviewing and discussing that proposal? 20 MR. CYMBALSKY: Well, from my point of view, I 21 think this is where the fun starts, right? 22 I mean -- well, people will go to bed with 23 expectations, I'm sure. Depends on how many IPAs we 24 quaff before bed. No, but honestly -- so I expect there, 25 you know, there will be reaction and counter-reaction,

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 204 1 and -- 2 MR. RAMIREZ: So this will be the basis of our 3 discussion, then. 4 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yeah, I think so. Look, I 5 mean, the group was chartered to come in here to 6 negotiate in good faith, and that's -- that's what we 7 expect tomorrow to hear. So -- 8 MR. RAMIREZ: Right. Great. And then just a 9 -- literally a housekeeping issue. Clean the house, 10 right, so if you could remove your trash with you, just 11 toss it out there on the way out, because we usually get 12 out of here pretty late, and I'm not sure how the 13 cleaning service works, but we were asked, if you could, 14 keep it clean. Make some more room for some more bottles 15 there tomorrow. That would be great. 16 All right. So anyone have any other comments? 17 All right. We'll see you at 9:00 o'clock. Thank you. 18 (End of audio.) 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

### Meeting June 1, 2015 205 1 

### CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER 2 3 

### I, Kylie S. Shepherd, Certified Shorthand 4 

### Reporter, CERTIFY I was authorized to transcribe the 5 

### proceedings, and the foregoing transcript is a true and 6 

### accurate record. 7 

### I FURTHER CERTIFY that I am not a relative,

s 

### employee, attorney, or counsel of any of the parties, nor 9 

### am I a relative or employee of any of the parties' 10 

### attorney or counsel connected with the action, nor am I 11 

### financially interested in the action. 12 

### Dated this 3rd day of June, 2015. 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25



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)4:ie S. Shepherd

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## Inc. www.hendersonlegalservices.com

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 1 **A a-ha**  52:12 **abbreviation** 6:24 **ability** 24:15 24:22 188:19 **able** 25:8 44:4 44:6 54:9 61:11 63:20 69:22 77:7 80:22 ,24 81:16 84:17 84:21 ,23,25 88:18 95:15 104:9 106:19 109:5 ,8 110:22 114:14 115:21 133:23 139:23 144:7 160:15 ,20 163:8 164:4 178:23 186:18 188:9 202:1 **above** 32:12 35:16 36:10 37:14 49:9 49:16 55:11 56:13 73:21 78:1 134:9 174:22 ,23 **absence** 78:2 170:16 **absent** 172:10 **absolute** 50:1 183:2 **absolutely** 93:13 **AC** 22:3 34:17 **accelerated** 178:19 **accent** 158:5

**acceptable** 177:13,25 178:1 179:4 179:5 180:3 **access** 18:18 **according** 22:18 23:14 **account** 30:3 **accounted** 168:1 169:5 192:4 **accounting** 140:4 150:24 **accumulated** 151:19 **accurate** 205:6 **accurately** 44:7 59:3,9 97:12 **ACEEE** 3:22 **achievable** 101:17 **achieve** 178:23 **acknowledg ...**  143:7 **acronym** 6:24 21:20 **across** 30:10 42:22 48:5 ,7 101:6 125:8 150:22 151:7 151:20 152:4 152:7,8 ,9 ,9 153:24 154:21 155:14 173:20 **action** 205:10 205:11 **activity** 147:17 **actual** 20:6 31:3 39:15 59:6 110:5

165:20 199:20 **actually** 14:12 17:2 ,17 24:15 ,24 25:1 30:11 30:17,18 ,19 36:22 37:19 38:13 39:20 40:5 ,23 41:2 41:3,14 43:23 44:25 48:2 51:9 ,21 56:25 57:15 59:10 60:11 62:13 63:2 69:19 79:25 83:15 ,24 90:19 121:16 122:5 ,6 126:20 128:2 134:13 140:1 147:11 149:6 159:20 162:25 174:10 176:8 186:23 187:23 191:6 191:7,7,14 192:3,7 195:1 ,21 200:19 201:5 201:9 ,12 **Adam** 2:8 4:15 **adapter** 71:20 72:13,18 73:6,23 74:1 76:1 ,22 ,23 77:1 ,3 **adapters** 70:21 72:25 **add** 33:19 88:13 128:21 160:23

170:14 184:7 202:4 **added** 22:5 72:6 76:21 103:18 165:5 **adding** 40:19 83:10 97:24 **addition** 16:12 38:18 137:19 165:5 **additional** 10:8 12:16 15:9 40:14 115:24 117:5 118:19 119:25 122:5 124:7,8 ,10 125:16 163:16,24 165:6 169:4 183:16,16 190:16 203:14 **Additionally** 164:18 **address** 56:19 70:21 179:15 **adds** 153:10 187:22 **adjacent** 92:22 **adjust** 59:8 124:18 **adjusted** 23:19 23:19 161:21 **adjustment** 9:25 **adopt** 65:4 68:11 97:12 112:2 172:7 190:25 193:20 194:16 **adopted** 65:17 65:18 ,22

112:15 ,16,20 141:20 171:23 190:23 202:7 **adoption** 173:15 **advancing** 108:16 **advantageous** 132:10 **advertised** 101:17 **advocate's** 89:4 200:11 **advocates** 179:7 182:9 **AEMTCA** 194:6 **AEO** 153:7 **affect** 115:23 119:24 135:2 135:3 146:25 194:22 **affected** 8:2 13:9 **affects** 11:24 25:18 26:2 29:14 62:10 **after** 7:9 29:16 71:5 83:19 105:18 106:12 142:9 150:23 151:1 151:4 163:6 163:12 188:24 **afternoon** 114:9 ,11 ,14 114:17 **AFUE** 7:18 **again** 3:7 5:23 8:4,19 9:11 11:15 12:1

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Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 2 12:13 13:20 13:23 14:7 15:1 ,5 ,11 ,18 15:19 ,20 17:10,21 20:25 21:1 ,4 21:11 ,12 22:17 23:14 23:14,16 24:2 ,8 25:14 28:16 29:5 32:9 38:10 38:18 ,18 39:9 ,24 42:2 42:20 43:11 44:13,23 45:9 47:18 49:14 50:1 52:24 53:25 54:25 58:14 58:18 60:5 60:25 63:9 71:21 72:15 73:14 81:14 81:19 84:19 89:1 ,9 94:25 99:8 101:25 111:13 121:7 127:24 128:16,23 132:25 133:12 ,13,15 134:17 135:6 135:20 141:22 144:16 145:1 148:17 150:9 151:25 152:17 153:7 155:21 156:3 157:20 160:9 161:3 164:16 167:11 ,16 168:19 181:13

183:10 187:17 188:4 194:17 **against** 39:1 ,1 104:10 167:21 **age** 53:13,16 **agencies** 182:9 **agency** 65:24 67:14 112:22 **agenda** 106:1 203:17 **aggregate** 131:25 149:19 154:3 154:19 **aggregated** 18:12 ,20 150:2 **ago** 30:14 75:4 86:1 115:8 187:21 190:21 **agree** 63:13 75:19 91:5 138:11 141:15 144:8 144:9 167:15 168:6 172:16 186:15 190:4 203:6 **agreed** 54:18 179:8 **agreement** 18:5 118:11 **Ah** 67:8 **ahead** 15:15 19:1 34:8 73:12 90:6 124:25 189:7 189:15 **AHRI** 3:17 7:15 10:4 16:12

22:25 23:9 23:19 24:12 26:20 27:11 29:10 30:8 49:7,15 ,23 64:4 84:5 94:14,20,21 120:24 126:7 128:8 130:8 134:4 174:2 174:3 199:12 201:2 **AHRI's** 66:9 **aimed** 192:8 **air** 1:1 3:15 8:6 16:15 ,15 ,15 16:20,21 ,21 17:1 ,2 20:15 20:17,20 21:2 ,8 22:6 22:20,24 23:10,11 ,11 23:13,13,17 23:22 ,24,25 24:16,21 ,22 25:1 ,9 27:6,9 27:24 28:2 28:12 ,22 ,23 28:23 30:4 30:24 35:13 35:16 36:5 37:25 39:7,8 39:10,14,15 39:15 ,16,22 40:9 57:16 58:2 ,3 60:16 65:16 80:12 80:15 81:12 81:21 83:7 91:25 93:21 95:15 97:21 100:6 101:1 101:1 ,5 ,11 101:12

112:14 120:7 140:23 146:10 147:22 148:5 148:8 157:17 170:3 179:10 183:22 184:1 197:24 198:2 202:5 **air-cooled** 24:9 83:3,5 97:20 **airflow** 100:11 103:9 ,11 ,13 103:22 104:8 104:13,19 **Alcia** 2:12 4:17 **Alex** 3:25 4:14 **align** 56:3 179:17 **alignment** 196:6 **all** 4:25 10:24 11:10,18 ,22 13:21 15:1 ,3 15:6,12 ,20 17:9 ,23 19:16 27:2 ,5 32:23,23 33:10 39:24 40:4,9 41:16 45:6 47:16 48:5 ,21 49:19 ,21 ,22 49:25 50:15 52:23 54:20 55:10,18 57:10 59:1 60:10,10,11 61:10,18 ,19 61:20 62:2 ,3 62:3,9 ,17 63:9 ,13,14 65:10,21

66:3,20 67:12 69:16 69:24 72:1 72:14 73:18 74:3 76:9 ,21 80:19 83:20 94:11 95:2 96:23 97:20 100:5 101:18 102:7 105:15 105:25 106:5 106:8 108:3 108:17 109:15 112:8 112:19 113:2 113:6,20 122:13,14,15 123:5 125:3 126:25 127:18 ,19 129:8 ,10 131:16,21 ,22 133:13 134:3 144:3,6 148:10,17 150:4,22 152:4,7,8 ,9 153:24 155:11 ,17 157:1 ,24 164:8 169:3 169:9 170:6 171:18 172:4 172:17 173:20 174:8 176:23 177:7 180:5 ,6 181:2 ,5 ,6 183:20 185:14,22 186:19 193:12 194:14 201:3

## Meeting June 1, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 3 203:6,8 ,12 204:16,17 **Allied** 3:21 28:24 55:21 58:13 175:16 189:17 200:5 201:14 **allocated** 17:8 17:9 22:12 **allow** 89:3 92:22 104:12 191:3 **allows** 192:11 **ally** 102:1 **almost** 39:6 46:20 152:21 157:19 184:14,16 **alone** 197:16 197:17 **along** 55:5 111:2 146:18 188:18 193:12 199:6 **already** 75:25 77:15 ,20 79:9 ,18 85:11 91:19 111:7 119:10 119:13,16 127:7 159:16 161:15 170:20 173:2 173:9 174:19 175:2 177:9 187:14 189:12 **also** 11:9 ,21 12:16 18:22 21:10 23:9 24:10 33:21 38:22 39:20 40:13,19 ,24 48:25 56:11 57:8 71:6,8

71:11 75:1 80:2 81:2 ,15 88:19 89:22 90:12 92:18 94:8 97:14 100:15 103:8 108:10 121:1 127:3 139:6 143:24 147:23 150:1 152:11 157:5 159:3 160:5 167:13 176:19 178:15 181:9 186:11 187:21 ,22 188:8 189:3 193:4 **alternative** 65:6 112:4 118:5 124:5 124:11 125:21 **alternatively** 189:1 **although** 8:16 127:2 180:24 **always** 24:5 48:25 49:3 54:24 141:7 142:5 ,12 **am** 103:17 113:19 180:4 180:4 205:7 205:9 ,10 **amendments** 194:6 **America** 3:16 **amongst** 31:13 72:4 **amount** 8:10 8:13,18 9:19 11:19 12:18

16:14 34:19 53:21 59:14 115:24 117:5 141:12 170:7 176:20 180:2 183:3 187:1 **analogy** 96:12 **analyses** 115:19 122:10 124:10 159:15 **analysis** 5:25 6:4 8:4 10:10 10:17,19 ,19 10:22 11:6 13:23 15:16 17:12 ,24 19:13 20:13 20:18 21:1 22:13 23:20 25:6,21 ,24 26:5 29:3,4 32:24 33:12 33:12 34:16 34:19 40:25 42:21 43:22 44:11 ,11 ,15 47:6,24 51:6 52:7,7 55:20 55:22 57:14 57:21 58:18 59:4 62:9 63:14 70:13 70:14,22 ,24 71:20 72:14 74:20 77:13 77:25 78:2 ,8 101:21 107:22 109:11 ,12 113:9 115:5 117:12 ,23 118:6,8 ,20

119:24 120:4 122:4 123:17 123:18 ,20 128:9 133:24 134:12 ,21 136:2 137:2 145:9 146:6 149:12 ,14 150:7,25 151:2 ,9 ,20 152:5 159:1 159:17,19 ,23 159:24 161:5 161:8 181:21 185:24 186:5 186:9 ,16 193:20 194:9 194:14,17 196:21 199:2 199:4,15 **analytical** 117:18 **analyze** 117:22 **analyzed** 63:5 125:13 129:11 140:25 **ancient** 202:17 **and/or** 184:21 **Andrew** 1:10 3:9 ,13 9:23 14:24 50:11 52:5 ,9 62:13 64:15 67:1 78:10 84:7,8 86:17 89:9 98:20 99:7 108:13 110:15 114:4 114:15 116:22 117:10 121:12 122:20

136:24 138:22 141:22 142:22 143:15 171:6 178:2 181:2 187:12 202:11 **Andrew's** 62:7 **annual** 136:5 150:12 151:15 152:17 160:14,23 161:1 **another** 7:7 25:11 30:16 41:1 ,7 47:19 72:6 85:14 100:16 105:16 107:19 118:9 127:3 128:21 172:5 ,8 173:24 190:6 190:20 198:17 **answer** 5:14 63:22 66:5 131:17 132:6 132:13 133:19 181:3 **answer's** 19:17 **answered** 64:19 **answers** 64:23 **anxious** 108:9 **anybody** 18:13 **anyone** 6:19 9:21 147:6 203:9 204:16 **anything** 31:24

## Meeting June 1, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 4 33:21 ,22 106:15 122:20 124:4 130:7,24 149:4 172:10 177:16 193:25 202:3 **anyway** 34:9 123:15 128:5 **Anyways** 160:7 **apologies** 14:5 14:8 **apologize** 45:1 **apparently** 7:17,17,19 155:11 198:20 **appealing** 89:23 **appear** 6:10 **Appliance** 3:13 **applicable** 132:16 **application** 24:23 87:22 **applications** 81:15 88:5 93:19 147:5 **applied** 70:24 72:3 87:16 178:4 **apply** 89:18 ,20 100:8 151:14 **appreciate** 18:14 49:15 90:19 134:3 **approach** 31:7 55:8 70:20 71:21 72:3 75:13,14,19 96:20,23 97:6 118:13 118:17,18

150:22 175:19 180:14 185:9 **approaches** 58:22 65:10 65:14 112:9 112:11 **appropriate** 75:14 96:12 97:11 176:6 176:17 189:2 **approve** 68:3 **area** 48:17 53:15 59:14 72:21 73:4 82:5 148:1 ,2 148:7 **areas** 65:14 72:22 74:3 76:14 112:12 129:4,14 194:22 **aren't** 60:14 62:18 ,18 89:13 170:4 **arguing** 58:9 **arm** 198:6 **Armen** 2:9 4:16 **Armstrong** 1:5 **around** 5:10 11:17 13:2 ,5 17:17 28:19 46:16 75:9 75:10,11 83:14 120:23 134:7 138:2 138:24 148:2 148:20 174:23 179:14 180:13 185:15 193:22 194:3

200:11 201:16 **around-the- ...**  100:13 **arranged** 81:9 **arrives** 45:18 45:19 **artificial** 197:23 **Ashley** 1:5 **ASHRAE** 27:23 115:11 121:9 122:1 168:11 169:2 ,3,25 170:19 ,22 171:8 ,10,21 171:22 172:15 173:2 173:23 189:10 190:5 190:8 ,11 ,15 190:23 193:18 ,20,22 194:4,11 ,16 **ask** 35:12 111:10 116:7 120:20 124:13 165:17 178:24 200:21 **asked** 70:10 79:21 121:21 164:18 168:22 204:13 **asking** 103:17 109:5 119:15 132:4 179:24 180:4 192:2 **ASRAC** 1:1 65:23 68:2 ,3 68:4,24 112:21

**assembled** 82:11 **assess** 159:1 **assessment** 201:20 **assign** 33:7 **assigned** 32:1 32:12 ,23,24 62:16 71:23 **associated** 71:8 72:22 86:17 115:24 125:11 140:15 150:24 168:25 169:9 191:1 **assume** 133:17 142:1 172:10 **assumed** 77:17 148:14 164:16,25 186:24 **assumes** 46:9 **assuming** 20:14 57:14 57:21 77:25 131:22 166:11 **assumption** 21:2 ,16 164:4 172:10 172:12 **assumptions** 186:7 187:11 **assures** 90:2 **asterisk** 129:21 130:12 ,24 200:10,16 **asterisked** 130:3,8 ,10 **asterisks**

200:6 **attached** 59:20 **attain** 77:7 **attempt** 117:21 **attempting** 125:18 **attendance** 3:5 ,7 **attention** 183:4 **attorney** 205:8 205:10 **attorneys** 109:13 110:8 **attractive** 43:3 43:4,5 45:6 **attractiveness** 44:23 **attributes** 98:2 **audio** 2:25 204:18 **authority** 65:15 ,25 67:15 68:15 112:13,23 201:25 **authorized** 46:6 205:4 **availability** 7:17 **available** 18:12 49:23 67:2 201:3 **average** 8:7,19 16:3,7,9 17:15 34:17 39:5 41:22 43:6,8 44:14 44:14 48:13 48:14,19 52:14,24 53:4,7,9

## Meeting June 1, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 5 135:3 147:24 150:11 ,11 152:6,7,18 169:7 185:25 185:25 186:3 **averages** 44:9 115:10 **avoid** 95:5 **aware** 83:23 93:20 94:15 **Awareness** 3:14 **away** 59:7 88:9 192:22 193:1 193:3,7 **awful** 40:1 193:7 **awkward** 100:22 **B B**  41:2 74:2 102:3 **back** 3:8 5:1 5:25 10:17 12:6 43:16 46:14,16,21 47:18 55:17 62:16 63:9 75:17 81:24 88:10,10 89:8 93:17 94:1 ,16 95:12 101:5 101:8 106:12 106:13,16 107:19 111:9 114:19 ,23 116:21 118:15 128:8 128:9 131:19 136:13,25 138:4 143:25 145:22 147:16

148:18 154:16 155:5 155:10,24 156:13 157:6 157:9 ,16,19 157:20 158:19 160:24 165:19 166:21 169:14 170:8 174:7 181:13 188:4,10 193:18 203:11 **back-of-the- ...**  155:20 **backfilled** 147:18 **background** 145:11 **backup** 186:24 **backwards** 40:23 **bad** 60:9 **baked** 187:14 **balance** 109:17 156:13 178:6 178:25 179:3 179:4,5 **balances** 180:14 **balancing** 178:8 **Bantle** 1:6 3:2 3:3,11 4:20 46:12 ,20 47:1 106:11 106:13 114:23 157:3 158:18 ,21 **bar** 78:11 135:17

**barrier** 109:5 ,6 **base** 14:17,17 50:12 56:13 58:17 72:21 72:22 73:4 74:3 76:14 77:15 83:17 136:13,14,15 151:11 ,23 163:14 166:4 167:18 ,21 168:18 175:17 192:13 **base-case** 135:1 137:18 140:13 152:18 ,20 162:18 182:24 188:6 **base-efficie ...**  166:2 **based** 7:13 10:4 11:2 17:12 ,25 21:1 22:24 25:21 26:20 27:11 30:8 33:10 52:7 56:7 59:12 59:13 61:1 62:3 64:3 75:19 81:25 83:16 84:12 84:21 95:11 101:19 107:16 109:11 125:5 125:13 127:11 145:22 148:13 160:1 161:3,6,9 ,11 161:11 164:2

164:16 165:8 166:15 175:11 186:11 188:8 188:17 190:6 195:13 **baseline** 11:17 11:18 13:3 13:14 15:21 16:6 17:16 20:14,17,19 20:22 21:3,6 28:10 32:2 39:12 ,19 ,23 40:12 76:25 77:8 186:6 **basement** 81:18 **basic** 144:3,9 **basically** 22:3 30:8 ,8 35:15 37:7,24 51:3 77:23 100:5 100:10 113:23 122:22 129:19 154:1 160:13,13 163:4 **basis** 16:7,9 56:6 63:18 64:5 115:4 148:25 164:5 194:17 204:2 **Battaglia** 1:7 4:11 ,11 **bear** 19:17 **bed** 203:22 ,24 **before** 6:20 15:19 ,22 43:12 47:2 78:16 106:15 106:16 107:13

111:23 115:11 116:19 122:2 124:23,23 138:9 139:8 147:11 158:21 163:5 163:12 172:5 180:22 194:20 201:15 203:24 **begin** 63:12 64:5 88:22 **beginning** 132:20 **beginnings** 160:14 **behavior** 48:25 145:8 **behind** 66:19 **beige** 160:8 **being** 5:13 7:15 13:9 24:8 ,11 40:9 55:23 66:14 84:17,21 ,23 87:16 88:18 91:1 101:17 103:4 109:5 111:7 121:21 123:24 133:23 143:11 168:1 176:6 182:16 **belief** 144:3 **believe** 12:14 14:7 28:18 31:4,4 85:21 102:8 143:25 148:11 ,12 156:18 157:4 186:14,17

## Meeting June 1, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 6 193:8 200:12 **below** 113:24 114:2 174:23 **beneficial** 8:18 **benefits** 150:3 155:9 181:9 182:10 **Berkeley** 4:8 29:19 **best** 25:19 66:25 69:19 169:20,22 174:7,11 ,16 176:5 ,11 ,12 176:14,16,18 200:24 **best-case** 57:22 **best-case-ty ...**  48:11 **better** 38:13 39:1 43:18 43:18 48:3 84:9 106:6 148:12 159:12 169:20,22 174:7,11 ,16 174:22 ,23 176:5 ,11 ,12 176:16,18 177:4 183:23 195:24 200:24 **between** 26:24 31:22 32:15 38:19 47:17 47:25 68:19 76:10 115:3 121:3 133:3 148:19 156:13 169:24 171:9 175:17 191:18 196:6

199:8 202:24 **beyond** 13:24 15:5 173:11 179:11 193:25 **big** 6:14 16:11 19:13 36:17 59:18 61:15 88:4 94:16 133:9 134:12 139:3 143:11 **bigger** 19:5 85:5 ,8 ,13 **bill** 55:2 **billion** 183:7,9 **bills** 54:24 **bin** 31:3,11 ,11 31:12 ,18 ,24 32:5 ,10,20 **bins** 30:12 ,13 30:14,17,21 31:17 199:14 199:16 **bit** 5:12 6:11 6:19 9:12 11:18 12:21 16:25 17:4 17:20 21:21 30:19 38:23 43:4 45:4 72:7 77:24 96:22 97:1 97:25 100:22 110:2 ,4 114:10 120:7 154:15 163:1 167:9 173:9 176:7 187:22 195:7 **blow** 103:1 104:8 **blowers** 180:19 183:21

184:13 185:4 **blue** 78:13 127:13,17 160:9 **board** 42:23 48:8 125:8 179:22 **Bob** 2:4 4:2 10:2 25:20 50:23 62:22 78:24 79:20 82:7 84:1 87:7 88:13 90:19 94:5 94:12 100:4 102:11 105:12 ,15 121:12 ,22 127:12 165:24 167:23 168:6 169:16 172:16 193:2 **Bob's** 101:9 102:1 **boom** 139:14 **borderline** 201:8 **Boston** 5:8 **both** 5:14 9:4 12:19 65:5 65:17 80:11 83:7,21 85:3 85:4 101:12 102:6,7 112:3,15 151:23 **bottles** 204:14 **bottom** 55:11 71:24 79:12 81:10 96:19 142:1 155:16 **bought** 49:2 **bounds** 61:23

62:8 187:11 **box** 59:18 61:15 **boxes** 24:21 160:8 ,9 **brain** 45:4 **branches** 148:4,5 **brands** 94:5 **break** 36:3 45:7,20 66:24 70:1 142:18 157:4 157:5 201:15 **breakdown** 6:15 23:7 **breaks** 171:7 **bridge** 184:17 **brief** 157:4 **briefly** 124:2 **bring** 3:9 5:18 34:15 87:17 93:17 120:23 157:6 **bringing** 177:6 183:16 **brings** 101:16 171:1 ,6 **broad** 202:20 **BTU** 20:1 83:3 **BTUs** 20:1 84:10 **buckets** 174:14 **bugging** 96:16 **build** 57:17 145:7 149:17 176:19 188:21 **building** 16:23 22:7,7,9 ,13 22:15 ,18 ,24 23:3,4,20,22 24:15 ,20

27:25 28:13 30:2 35:11 51:17 56:4 59:12 ,24 81:17 87:18 88:9 139:4 146:10 190:17 192:12 198:2 **buildings** 8:14 8:16,19 17:1 22:16 23:2 ,7 23:8 ,16,17 25:13 27:7 27:10,13 39:8 ,11 40:2 40:9 ,10 42:2 87:20,21 88:2 ,20 120:11 135:11 ,15 136:21 147:12 ,15 **built** 147:10,12 **bullet** 21:17 23:8 94:2 **bunch** 37:9 41:17 148:2 **burden** 159:4 176:22 177:6 179:9 ,18 ,25 181:15 182:8 182:19 184:5 **burned** 151:18 **businesses** 180:6 **bust** 139:14 **button** 73:17 **buy** 49:1 ,6 55:2 122:18 153:2 **buying** 51:11

## Meeting June 1, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 7 **C C**  1:4 2:1 3:1 **CA** 22:2 **cabinet** 198:11 **calculate** 151:15 177:12 ,19 179:25 **calculated** 115:15 **calculating** 62:9 124:24 125:1 ,2 ,21 **calculation** 126:2 153:13 155:4 **calculations** 71:13 116:13 117:7 118:16 124:8 194:23 **California** 3:24 27:24 172:23 173:1 **call** 5:2 29:6 35:2 43:17 150:17 157:4 157:21 169:20 **called** 62:25 79:17 150:20 179:10 **calls** 178:5 **came** 8:6 10:4 47:10 62:16 63:10 67:20 85:25 ,25 174:22 179:21 194:6 196:5 **canceled** 5:9 **candidate** 76:23 **capability** 83:18

**capable** 94:11 **capacities** 71:23 72:1 76:13,15 **capacity** 72:5 76:6,9 83:2 84:9 159:4 **capacity-wise** 92:19 **capital** 160:24 160:25 163:13 167:3 167:17 195:1 **capture** 57:10 **captured** 56:20 57:24 **care** 26:6 120:11 123:13 132:8 203:8 **carefully** 67:18 **carried** 81:17 **Carrier** 4:2 10:2 25:20 41:6 50:23 71:3 79:21 95:16 115:13 117:3 121:22 125:10 127:12 165:25 191:9 193:2 199:1 **carries** 101:10 **carry** 44:7 **case** 14:17,17 44:17 49:3,4 50:12 51:7 59:6 69:4,4 121:13 131:6 136:13,14,15 138:23 140:14 144:11 151:11 ,12 ,23

151:24 163:18 ,19 167:18 ,21 183:1 184:19 185:18 193:23 196:15 **cases** 76:7 83:4 **cash** 161:1 ,4,7 186:21 **catalog** 74:23 **cataloged** 74:24 **catch** 198:22 **categories** 125:19 129:10,12 134:9 190:17 **category** 31:1 34:18 ,23 97:22 **caucus** 62:15 62:15 114:10 114:12 ,14,21 **caucusing** 107:10 **caught** 70:9 **causal** 145:6 **causation** 144:20 **cause** 55:15 107:24 **cautious** 60:3 **CAV** 21:17 22:7 25:13 26:17 27:13 42:1 ,8 ,12 **CBECS** 16:25 23:6,16 24:3 24:8 ,14 25:12 **CC&E** 165:6 165:10

**ceiling** 80:5 81:3,5 82:22 **cell** 132:3 **Census** 128:13 128:13,19 **central** 65:16 112:14 **centrifugal** 80:23 89:25 **centrifugals** 90:1 **certain** 18:19 42:11 ,12 59:14 65:2 97:22 111:25 126:15 133:21 164:2 187:11 189:17,18 191:13 192:15 ,18 193:4 200:7 **certainly** 18:12 21:10 29:2 63:10,10 66:8 74:10 93:25 109:3 116:3 141:15 171:3 173:21 178:19 ,21 181:20 187:10 193:2 194:23 **certainty** 24:4 **CERTIFICATE** 205:1 **certification** 105:2 165:11 165:13,22 **certified** 99:10 99:17 205:3 **CERTIFY** 205:4,7 **cetera** 98:17

99:23 115:16 152:10 154:4 154:5 **Chad** 164:12 **challenge** 47:20 184:4 **challenges** 196:4 **challenging** 195:7 **chance** 196:17 **Chandara** 1:12 **change** 8:3 12:12 16:11 25:6 29:23 30:2 45:12 48:6 50:1 55:15 117:14 120:3 121:15 137:9 ,12 ,22 137:23 139:1 140:12 148:19 152:1 154:18 162:1 162:2 165:25 169:9 170:12 182:15 183:3 183:5 184:25 185:2 186:18 186:19 **changed** 8:20 9:15 12:7 77:10 161:8 161:12 ,13,14 162:6,14,15 162:20 201:20 **changes** 15:2 15:10 41:25 49:20 63:15 70:18 71:15 71:19 147:3 149:24 151:8

## Meeting June 1, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 8 151:12 152:14 156:15 160:25 161:15 169:10 186:8 194:12 195:4 195:22 **changing** 26:12 39:7 41:2 52:18 120:3 **channels** 135:10 **Chapter** 144:5 **characteristi ...**  39:12 91:10 **charge** 63:12 **charged** 62:1 **Charlie** 1:18 3:15 67:19 **chart** 26:8 35:17 42:6 71:24 77:4 78:6 94:3 185:17 188:8 **chartered** 204:5 **charts** 72:15 74:14 **chatting** 67:20 **cheap** 20:8 **check** 66:12 104:14 109:17,17 132:7,8 141:7,8 **chevrons** 150:9 **chillers** 145:17 **Chinese** 154:15 **choice** 21:11 29:6 171:20 **choices** 58:20

99:12 133:21 161:23 **choose** 51:21 154:1 **chooses** 147:1 **choosing** 153:24 181:16 **chose** 72:11 85:2 131:5 162:13 **chosen** 56:12 **Chris** 1:16 158:23 165:10 176:21 183:6 185:16 187:12 196:19 **Christopher** 4:10 **circle** 5:25 **cited** 68:15 165:23 201:17 **clarification** 57:4 78:10 82:9 99:17 **clarify** 124:3 198:18 **clarifying** 136:7 162:9 **clarity** 67:7,8 146:5 **class** 17:16 70:25 71:18 72:6 77:10 79:22 83:13 83:20 87:9 89:2 91:20 91:23 92:5 92:10,15 93:6,21 154:4 189:3

**classes** 9:4 20:12 42:8 ,9 70:23 71:22 72:1 ,9 96:9 135:21 153:25 154:2 154:12 ,21 155:15 ,17 **classroom** 92:7 95:6 **classrooms** 88:15 **clean** 204:9 ,14 **cleaning** 204:13 **clear** 66:7 77:22 96:25 109:16 163:25 164:24 193:19 **clear-cut** 155:8 **clearly** 87:7,11 89:1 93:19 96:24 100:1 109:20 194:9 194:16 **click** 79:16 **climate** 54:18 **climate's** 53:20 **clip** 66:25 106:22 **close** 136:5 155:23 **closer** 8:8 87:17 189:25 **closing** 5:4 194:19 203:9 **clothes** 107:7 112:16 **clumsy** 103:16 **clustered** 32:5

32:7 **co-modificat ...**  192:10 **coalesce** 66:8 **codes** 27:25 28:13 172:7 190:17 **COGS** 160:12 160:16 **coil** 60:17 80:15 82:4 86:18 ,22 101:3,12 **coils** 83:7 **collapse** 192:9 **collapses** 166:24 **colleagues** 114:20 **collected** 75:1 **column** 22:20 26:16,16 94:25 95:20 115:10 129:20 160:8 160:9 **columns** 22:10 26:17,25 115:11 200:7 **combination** 159:22 **combine** 154:21 **come** 7:16 24:22 34:20 40:5 46:14 46:16 48:1 67:24 69:11 69:22 88:10 88:10 89:12 97:5 113:18 116:21 117:17 125:20

150:15 153:6 156:13 159:15 ,17,18 159:19 179:16 180:13,15 189:21 190:6 194:10 196:15 204:5 **comes** 20:3 21:9 24:4,7 80:15 101:4 121:8 137:10 149:5 153:17 165:2 167:3 169:12 174:2 190:5 195:19 **comfort** 89:13 **comfortable** 43:25 **coming** 53:12 59:7 68:9 96:5 139:17 143:25 148:18 152:2 152:17 163:19 170:1 173:7 174:1 180:12 185:5 **commend** 141:8 **comment** 47:18 50:24 50:24 51:11 51:24 62:12 73:10 86:9 127:9 141:24 176:5 203:10 **comments** 9:22 10:8 15:13 45:8 46:22 ,23 52:2 55:18

## Meeting June 1, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 9 87:2 106:14 158:22 164:22 188:4 194:19 ,21 204:16 **commercial** 1:1 8:6 36:18 37:4 57:5 97:20 139:4 146:9 147:10 154:24 170:3 170:4 183:21 183:22 197:24,25 198:2 **committee** 65:23 67:24 68:1 ,24 74:11 94:2 112:21 180:11 **common** 48:19 **companies** 149:1 191:9 **company** 47:19 84:14 91:7 122:25 123:1 ,2 ,3,10 123:11 ,12 132:13 133:21 149:3 149:9 172:14 185:20 186:1 186:2 ,3,3 **company's** 47:20 66:9 133:17 **compare** 140:6 191:2 **compared** 20:2 86:7 **compares** 127:6 **comparing** 176:2

**comparison** 11:16 26:14 203:2 **competitor** 164:3 **complete** 168:13 **completely** 32:12 98:16 131:16 132:14 140:3 160:1 **completion** 134:20 **compliance** 65:6 112:4 163:9 165:13 166:13 **complicated** 155:22 **comply** 27:25 **component** 71:12 115:14 116:12 184:16 **components** 81:9 141:13 184:1 ,2 **comport** 9:25 47:10 **composition** 8:24 **compression** 176:13 188:19 **compressor** 21:10 39:21 82:3 144:13 152:16 **computer** 46:13 79:8 93:19 ,20,20 **concentric** 61:4,10,14

61:18 **concept** 104:15 **concepts** 65:21 112:19 **concern** 101:5 124:3 149:2 190:3 **concerned** 54:24 59:2 87:8 89:4 127:4 133:18 **concerns** 63:23 65:2 179:15 **concur** 166:23 **condenser** 39:20 80:12 80:14 81:10 82:2 83:7 89:22 92:16 93:9 97:14 100:22 ,25 **condensers** 83:3,4,6 **condensing** 9:20 101:11 **condition** 61:22 **conditioner** 81:22 91:25 101:1 ,1 202:6 **conditioners** 1:1 8:6 65:16 93:21 112:15 140:24 157:17 179:11 197:25 **conditioning** 3:16 30:24 80:13 97:21 101:11

146:10 147:23 148:5 **conditions** 63:2 **conduct** 199:1 199:4 **conducted** 20:14 21:1 **confident** 155:23 **confidential** 129:22 132:2 160:2 **confidentiality** 129:15 **configuration** 79:25 81:7 83:22 ,25 93:24 95:11 101:24 **configuratio ...**  80:1 87:5 94:11 **confirms** 184:1 **confused** 92:3 123:10 **confusion** 95:5 160:5 164:23 165:4 **conjecture** 115:23 **conjectures** 117:3 **conjunction** 140:21 **connected** 60:14,15 101:12 205:10 **connection** 100:16 **connections** 100:12

**Connolly** 2:13 4:17 **consensus** 65:3,7,12 ,20 67:17,24 68:1 ,3,9 69:3 69:8 75:13 112:1 ,6,10 112:18 123:21 **consequently** 146:25 **conservation** 169:10,11 195:22 201:19 **conservatism** 33:2 **consider** 40:25 47:11 65:7,24 66:10 67:11 67:13,13,18 69:16,16 73:23 93:22 97:14,24 112:5 ,22 180:2 **consideration** 58:19 60:1 97:6 **considered** 77:13 **considering** 86:14 91:1 179:3 **consistency** 31:6 **consistent** 103:4 **constant** 16:14,20 17:1 20:15

## Meeting June 1, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 10 21:2 ,8 23:11 27:6 37:5 ,19 39:7,14,16 39:22 40:9 137:12 144:2 151:7 **consternation** 160:4 164:22 **constrained** 82:22 **constraint** 85:5 86:20 **construction** 77:3 81:23 89:16 135:11 135:16 136:22 139:2 146:16,17,19 146:24 147:16 **consultant** 4:12 129:24 **consultants** 62:24 131:14 199:13 **consumer** 29:6 55:9 149:14 150:17 152:4 152:22 **consumers** 8:13 29:24 43:7,9 51:2 152:25 **consumption** 14:1 16:23 39:16,19 151:15 153:9 171:4 181:11 **context** 191:20 **continually** 156:8 **continue** 28:3 63:20 64:1 102:25 164:4

174:11 194:13 **continued** 2:1 65:11 112:9 141:16 **continues** 28:11 35:15 193:17 **continuous** 36:6 **Contractors** 3:16 **conventiona ...**  87:16 **conventions** 140:4 **conversation** 114:16 157:12 188:17,24 **conversations** 108:17 145:14 **conversion** 10:12 ,21 ,24 11:2 ,7 13:3 13:22 ,24 15:3,7,18 ,20 15:22 16:3,6 16:10 17:8 ,9 17:11 19:22 38:20 41:9 41:25 43:2 45:16 134:25 151:17 152:10 153:8 153:16 159:21 ,25 160:4 161:13 161:17,22 162:2 164:21 164:23 165:1 165:5 167:4 167:6,13,17

169:8 185:25 186:12 187:16,17,25 188:5 189:19 194:24,24 195:2 ,6,12 195:15 ,15 **conversions** 178:22 198:19 **convert** 41:1 151:17 171:18 **converted** 20:5 88:21 **conveying** 44:13 **cooling** 12:16 12:19 48:17 56:23 83:2 127:14 192:15 ,17 **coordinate** 182:14 **copy** 66:7 106:19 109:4 110:23 **corner** 155:20 **correct** 14:22 18:10 26:19 26:21 44:9 48:14 57:1 67:22 74:20 75:5 110:1 132:11 141:2 144:19 148:15 156:5 162:22 167:19 ,22 **corrected** 95:17 **correcting** 107:8 **correction**

107:4 **correctly** 13:1 13:2 28:19 55:20 92:15 140:6 **correlation** 144:20,22 145:9 **correlations** 70:18 **correspondi ...**  121:1 ,2 **corridor** 88:14 **corridors** 88:16 **cost** 8:10,12 8:16,17,19 10:19 11:4 11:25 12:1 15:24 16:3 17:9 ,24 19:6 19:6,7,10,14 19:15 ,21 ,24 20:1 ,2 ,3,7 21:13 22:13 23:20 29:3 38:15 ,24 41:14 43:7,9 44:3,14,15 47:7 48:5 49:25 50:11 51:2 ,11 ,14 55:1 ,10,14 71:19 75:1 86:16,23 135:2 ,3 137:19 ,20,22 141:1 149:19 149:20,25 150:1 ,11 151:24,25 ,25 152:25 153:1 156:14,25 160:17 163:8

164:21 165:5 165:15 ,18 ,20 168:13,15 169:8 174:18 175:6,6,13 184:10 186:10 187:17 195:24 **cost-effective** 184:7 **cost-sensitive** 29:24 **costs** 8:14 15:16 38:25 39:5 40:14 62:21 105:2 144:13 150:2 152:2 ,11 153:4 155:8 159:18 ,22 ,25 160:4,11 ,20 161:13,17,23 162:2 ,5 164:23 165:1 165:22 167:4 167:6,10,13 168:25 169:4 169:9 174:8 178:22 185:25 186:12 ,12 187:16,25 188:5 189:19 194:24,24 195:2 ,4,6,12 195:15 ,15 **coughing** 174:18 **Coughlin** 1:8 4:7,7 29:19 126:5 ,13 127:8 ,17,19

## Meeting June 1, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 11 127:21 134:13 136:1 136:10,12 ,20 137:3,8 138:3,20,25 139:7,10,25 141:2 ,5 ,9 143:17,20,23 144:23 149:5 154:17 155:2 155:13 156:8 157:23 158:1 158:7,9 ,12 **counsel** 64:18 66:9 ,9 114:17 205:8 205:10 **Counsel's** 4:4 65:1 **count** 7:17,18 198:6 **counted** 7:20 151:4 **counter-intu ...**  41:5 **counter-rea ...**  203:25 **country** 193:16 **couple** 43:19 78:10 85:25 88:13 92:4 124:21 153:10 154:8 188:4 196:23 **course** 8:9 29:14 33:12 39:21 40:3 65:7 75:8 112:5 152:8 196:9 202:1 202:2 **court** 66:23 106:22 **cover** 126:18

165:6 **covered** 97:10 164:17 **covering** 102:6 **covers** 125:3 **cranked** 159:7 **crash** 139:3,9 142:16 **create** 151:10 153:21 **creation** 68:6 **creative** 108:18 ,19 **credit** 104:23 **criteria** 177:14 **critical** 180:7 196:21 **cross** 178:11 184:17 **CSA** 99:23 **CUAC** 127:2 135:8 156:17 196:7 **CUACs** 196:6 **CUHP** 135:9 **cumulation** 167:25 **cumulative** 135:24 136:2 155:14 159:4 167:20 176:22 177:6 180:2 181:15 182:8 183:11 184:4,11 **curb** 10:12 ,21 10:24 11:7 13:3,22 ,25 15:3,7,22 16:6,10 17:8 17:9 ,11 19:5 19:14,22 38:15 ,20 40:14,19

41:9 ,17,25 43:2 44:3,12 45:16 64:8 69:25 70:2 ,3 70:4,4,5 ,7,21 70:21 71:20 72:13,18 ,24 73:6,25 76:1 76:22 ,23 152:10 **curbs** 11:2 15:18 ,20 16:4 20:2 63:21 64:1 73:24 77:1 ,3 78:8 134:25 **curiosity** 162:24 **curious** 87:15 174:12 **current** 29:23 56:2 101:22 152:21 159:16 191:23 **currently** 60:6 84:4,14,15 84:19 97:10 **curve** 19:6 105:5 141:4 **curves** 71:19 72:10 75:1 118:16 140:20 **customer** 48:25 54:25 82:13 **customers** 8:16,18 52:16 55:13 81:25 163:9 **cutting** 85:17 **CWAF** 34:15 **CWAF/CUAC**

5:2 **CWAFs** 6:23 196:6 **cycle** 19:8 51:14 147:4 171:7 **cycle-cost** 49:2 **cycles** 20:9 139:14 **Cymbalsky** 1:9 4:6,6,25 7:7 34:1 ,4,8 36:3 43:15 46:6 47:15 48:21 49:5 ,12 ,14 50:9 ,13 51:10 56:18 57:6 58:5 66:2 ,17,23 67:3,8 ,16 68:13,18 69:6 70:7,16 86:11 90:18 90:24 91:11 96:13,17 102:21 ,24 103:3 106:20 111:18 ,22 113:12 ,15 ,19 113:22 114:2 123:6 125:4 125:22 ,25 130:14,18 ,23 131:1 ,18 132:19 133:8 145:13 146:3 146:21 147:6 148:10 154:6 155:7 157:13 158:10,16 174:6 175:1 175:24 176:2 177:9 ,16,22

181:13 182:4 184:13,23 185:2 ,9 193:11 198:16 203:20 204:4 **D D**  3:1 75:21 76:11 **damped** 146:18 **dangerous** 142:5 **Darlington** 2:8 4:16 **dash** 21:17 130:12 **data** 6:11 ,13 16:12 ,12 ,13 16:13,17 17:2 18:2 ,19 18:25 20:11 20:16 23:9 23:14,15 ,18 23:23 24:3,3 24:12 ,14 25:12 ,17 26:20 27:11 27:17,18 28:21 29:9 29:10,18 30:8 34:16 43:23 46:14 49:8 ,14,20 49:23 58:14 64:4 74:13 74:23,24 94:4,14,20 101:19 115:9 118:8 ,25 119:1 121:9 121:23 123:7

## Meeting June 1, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 12 124:17 125:6 126:6,9 127:5 ,7,22 127:23 128:7 128:7,11 ,12 128:13,19 ,21 129:8 ,9 ,13 129:14 131:2 131:11 ,21 132:1 ,11 ,22 133:22 ,24 134:4 135:22 138:4,5 139:20 143:19 145:12 146:4 152:19 153:3 159:6 181:21 183:9 188:21 188:25 199:12 ,18 201:13 **database** 201:2 **Dated** 205:12 **dates** 63:19 65:6 112:4 179:10,17 182:15 196:6 **Dave** 2:5 3:21 28:24 55:21 58:13 175:16 189:17 200:5 201:14 202:5 **David** 2:10 4:16 95:17 **day** 6:1 7:8 ,9 21:22 75:6 144:3,6 203:18 205:12 **daylight** 108:10 **days** 5:6 107:1 124:21 140:7

**deadline** 66:20 **deal** 45:23 59:22 185:6 **dealing** 124:6 **debate** 61:24 61:25 144:2 **decide** 72:11 73:23 **decided** 62:8 **decides** 82:13 **deciding** 74:8 **decision** 48:6 50:7 57:19 133:10 135:16 137:21 **decisions** 148:3 180:7 **decline** 63:1 141:1 **declining** 141:21 162:21 **decreased** 9:10 **decreases** 39:22 **decreasing** 9:9 **deem** 184:6 **deep** 86:22 ,22 **define** 95:11 **defined** 135:10 177:25 178:1 **definitely** 28:22 36:11 87:19 156:4 161:9 **definition** 71:2 79:22 81:22 83:5 ,13 87:6 89:12 ,13 90:14 91:25 92:2 ,10,12

92:21 93:13 95:4 96:24 97:5 ,18 101:9 103:17 183:17 184:8 184:10 **definitions** 98:21 **degradations** 115:15 **del** 2:15 4:17 115:13 126:1 **deLaski** 1:10 3:13,13 9:23 10:6 14:9 ,19 14:22 17:5 18:24 19:1 26:7,16,20 26:22 ,24 27:2 35:20 50:10 52:5 ,9 52:21 53:2 54:5 61:21 62:12 63:8 67:1 ,6,9 ,19 68:17,25 69:19 75:3,6 78:9 ,15 ,21 84:8 ,23 85:17,23 86:5 ,10 89:8 98:20 99:7 99:13 108:13 109:22 110:11 ,17 111:1 ,6,10 112:24 114:4 114:19 ,22 116:22 117:8 117:24 121:11 ,18 123:16 129:6 129:19 ,23 130:1 ,25

131:3,12 132:7 136:24 137:4,25 138:4,13 139:22 141:22 142:7 142:9 ,24 144:8 157:10 157:21 ,25 158:5 ,8 168:19 169:13 178:2 178:15 179:6 179:14 180:10 181:9 187:12 200:1 202:4,14,16 202:23 **delayed** 10:11 **deliver** 80:24 81:1 95:15 103:21 **delta** 199:8 **demand** 137:7 144:4,10,10 145:2 ,2 ,4 **department** 55:8 65:2 ,9 68:4,5 108:21 109:16 111:25 112:7 131:25 177:5 177:15 179:2 180:16 181:14 197:24 202:7 **dependent** 33:15 141:12 **depending** 80:18 84:5 149:23 193:20 **depends** 110:6

178:15 203:23 **Depot** 61:16 **depreciation** 160:24 **depth** 83:1 **derived** 128:12 **describe** 100:7 201:9 **described** 75:4 147:22 166:11 **describes** 100:5 **describing** 79:2 201:10 **design** 20:14 22:21 33:16 39:13,14,15 39:23 40:11 57:18 ,19 58:20 65:5 86:23 98:22 112:3 175:19 195:3,7,8 ,10 **designate** 22:11 108:22 **designed** 61:13,14 81:2 ,25 98:5 **designs** 22:15 35:22 40:11 117:11 ,15 **detail** 38:5 59:23 150:8 151:22 195:13 **detailed** 30:20 159:10 **details** 33:14 74:7 **determine** 98:23,24

## Meeting June 1, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 13 117:23 122:4 150:16 177:13 179:24 **determined** 14:13 **determining** 16:18 23:3 178:6 **Detlef** 2:3 5:8 10:10,17,20 17:12 45:15 64:1 70:11 73:12 74:12 75:3,17 78:9 90:6,10 95:8 102:11 ,14 104:4,25 105:14,15 ,18 106:16 114:24 116:7 116:22 118:5 124:12 125:5 161:10 198:18 **Detlef's** 12:25 **develop** 29:12 75:1 **developed** 40:11 71:2 149:16 **developing** 78:25 96:24 108:15 **devil** 74:7 **DFR** 202:8 ,19 **dialogue** 5:15 **Diane** 2:11 4:16 **Dick** 31:15 60:9 172:4 **dictates** 16:22 **difference** 6:15 20:6,7 22:8 36:17

57:13 69:6 77:11 82:16 93:8 140:9 140:12 154:8 174:24 202:23 **differences** 17:6 47:12 47:12 121:10 191:17,18 **different** 10:13 27:8 35:22 38:23 50:17 53:6 57:11 62:16 69:5 72:16,17,23 80:1 ,10 91:22 92:20 93:5 94:5 98:16 115:22 117:1 121:21 121:24,25 124:17 125:7 129:10 135:10,21 139:19 140:18 142:20 147:8 148:14 152:4 152:7,8 ,9 ,14 153:24 154:1 154:2 ,3,11 154:12 ,21 156:16 162:4 175:14,19 178:18 184:7 185:6 187:8 193:13 194:22 195:8 197:25 **differential** 47:25 115:25 169:24 **differentials**

71:7 115:3 120:9 121:3 198:25 **differentiate** 176:15 192:23 **differentiation** 176:13 191:22 192:12 197:23 **differentiator** 95:25 **differently** 184:21 **difficult** 94:20 139:20 140:2 195:23 **dig** 196:17 **digest** 15:8 45:9 ,24 **dimension** 94:4 **dinner** 123:13 **direct** 65:15 ,24 67:14 68:14 69:1 ,4 112:12 ,22 159:3 197:6 197:18 201:25 **directed** 177:5 **direction** 49:20 85:15 148:15 **directions** 193:5 ,9 **directly** 117:7 **directory** 7:15 7:20 10:4 **disagree** 60:8 61:15 147:7 **disallowed** 202:15

**discern** 143:9 **discernible** 141:1 **discerning** 142:12 **discharge** 88:8 **disclose** 123:6 **discomfort** 63:24 **disconcerted** 62:13 **disconcerting** 107:18 **discount** 150:4,6 152:9 153:12 156:11 ,21 157:16 161:2 **discounted** 137:20 153:17 161:4 161:7 186:21 **discounting** 153:15 156:24 **discrepancy** 20:18 **discuss** 10:12 29:3 75:8 105:12 116:20 155:3 **discussed** 31:16 62:17 70:20 74:13 74:17 75:6 106:15 144:11 152:13 159:16 161:16 182:16 **discussing** 90:15 91:12

97:7 174:7 203:19 **discussion** 47:7 58:7 62:3 63:21 64:1 65:11 86:12 87:1 93:16 112:9 114:18 115:2 121:12 137:25 138:1 149:8 167:7 196:9 204:3 **discussions** 177:7 **dishwasher** 146:8 **dishwashers** 65:18 107:6 107:7 **disproved** 95:24 **disregard** 41:23 **disregarded** 42:3 **disseminate** 107:2 **distinction** 22:9 90:25 **distribute** 66:13 **distributed** 20:19 27:17 30:10 32:4 **distributing** 122:11 **distribution** 6:13 16:17 22:19 ,25 32:6 35:1 52:11 ,13,22 72:4 77:5

## Meeting June 1, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 14 134:15 ,25 135:1 149:23 151:8 ,12 152:3 156:22 **distributions** 7:16 18:6 27:6,9 42:1 53:17 **disturb** 104:23 **divergent** 193:9 **divide** 31:12 **divided** 31:14 **divulged** 123:24 200:8 **doable** 24:17 **document** 182:10 **DOE** 4:4,6,24 43:15 47:15 47:24 56:7 56:18 64:18 64:25 65:23 91:1 106:21 112:11 ,21 122:1 132:19 150:22 154:6 157:6 165:20 174:6 189:11 191:19 ,23 192:11 193:14,24 195:22 201:17,22 **DOE's** 69:8 193:19 **DOE-establi ...**  201:18 **doing** 21:4 44:5 54:16 54:16 57:23 75:24 93:25 116:25 124:9 139:23 140:21

155:19 ,20 173:5 180:12 193:25 **dollar** 150:17 150:21 164:2 181:22 183:2 187:1 **dollar-per-ton** 50:12 **dollars** 19:21 20:5 ,6 50:3 180:9 183:23 183:24 **dominiums** 141:18 **door** 85:13 **doors** 85:11 **doorways** 81:16 82:23 **Doppel** 1:11 3:18 ,18 59:11 ,11 60:25 66:16 99:16,16,20 111:5 ,8 170:11 ,11 ,14 **dots** 126:10 127:2 ,20,21 128:1 133:23 133:25 143:20 **double** 79:15 79:25 183:23 **double-duct** 81:21 93:4 **double-duct ...**  79:23 80:2 81:8 **downs** 145:11 **downstream** 24:21 **downturn** 148:3 **draft** 79:22

81:21 105:16 156:4 **dragged** 146:18 **dramatically** 7:22 9:15 56:5 **drastically** 29:23 169:11 **drew** 33:16 **drive** 6:20 12:18 26:4 34:19 103:16 **driven** 55:1 ,23 137:6 142:1 **driver** 25:12 56:14 139:1 139:2 ,11 ,12 147:3 **driving** 131:12 **drop** 12:22 13:21 14:1 24:22 41:4 41:11 118:12 118:19 120:2 120:6 122:5 124:10 125:14,17 135:6,24 136:1 ,5 137:11 138:15 ,17,21 138:23 140:16 141:25 182:5 186:23,25 187:2 188:14 **dropped** 137:17 146:15 ,17 **dropping** 142:25 **drops** 118:21 124:7,14

125:11 136:4 **drove** 9:11 33:12 **drudge** 202:16 **dry-cleaners** 148:2 **dual** 11:17 65:17 112:15 **dual-duct** 71:2 **dual-ducts** 78:23 106:15 **duct** 59:14,19 60:10,14 79:15 ,25 83:8 88:8 93:9 100:6 100:12 ,16 **ducted** 80:11 80:16 83:8 97:13 **due** 5:9 9:4,7 12:17 15:2 20:25 29:8 ,8 129:15 135:15 137:22 139:15 **during** 36:3 150:25 168:16 **dwell** 72:20 **dyslexic** 21:22 **E E**  1:4,4 2:1 ,1 3:1 ,1 **e-mail** 67:3 71:12 106:23 119:5 124:13 **earlier** 17:8 ,16 50:25 52:10 85:24 134:6 165:23 185:24

187:13,23 **earn** 163:16 **easier** 91:4 94:18 154:13 **easily** 102:2 **easy** 124:18 154:14 **economic** 145:11 147:17 148:3 **economically** 43:5 178:7 **economics** 144:23,25 147:4 **economies** 172:20 **economy** 142:2 ,9 ,16 142:17 144:1 144:6 **EER** 65:17 97:9 103:18 104:1 ,23,24 112:16 141:11 ,16 202:6 **effect** 11:10 19:6,9 26:5 28:6 35:1 40:3 41:24 42:2 44:5 50:14 105:6 138:6,8 ,9 ,10 138:15 ,16 141:7 142:13 143:1 ,2 144:6,10 169:2 **effected** 171:21 182:25 **effective**

## Meeting June 1, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 15 171:22 172:15 173:7 173:23 179:10,17 182:14 196:6 **effectively** 109:24 **effects** 38:23 56:24 145:11 **efficiencies** 96:3 152:18 171:3 **efficiency** 6:13 6:15 9:8 10:13,24 11:7,22 14:2 14:6 15:4,20 15:23 16:4 16:13,17,19 17:9 ,11 ,15 17:19 ,20 18:6 20:11 20:16,20,23 22:12 ,19 ,20 22:25 23:1 27:6,11 28:6 28:9 29:6,8 29:13,21 30:9 31:3,6 31:11 ,11 ,13 31:25 ,25 32:11 ,12 ,13 33:11 38:11 38:13,19 39:2 ,5 ,13,16 39:18 ,22 40:12 ,18 41:22 42:1 43:12 ,13 51:9 70:22 72:12 ,24 73:4 76:24 77:14,24 84:18 ,22 87:9 89:3

90:3 115:4 117:16 120:1 121:14 132:23 133:23 134:15 135:1 149:15 150:12 151:7 152:1 ,21 153:5 ,22 166:4 168:9 168:18 ,23 171:4 173:25 175:17,21 176:15 178:20 182:11 188:6 **efficient** 86:21 **efforts** 182:13 **eight** 72:19 **Eilen** 2:13 4:17 **either** 69:3 82:12 ,13 84:5 86:12 131:6 151:6 172:17 200:15 ,17 **EL** 11:3,3 13:4 13:5 ,21 ,24 14:7,7,12 15:5 16:9 20:14 22:4 26:11 27:14 36:7 40:13 41:23,23 42:3 45:2 47:25 49:9 49:16 57:15 73:7,22 74:6 75:22 76:1 ,3 76:17 77:1 ,2 77:8 78:1 134:9 135:9 136:8 ,8

147:1 150:14 153:24 154:1 154:4,12 156:12 ,16,17 156:19 ,19 168:24,25 169:1 ,2 174:21 175:10 186:6 **EL-1** 55:13 **EL-3** 35:16 **elastic** 139:20 **elasticity** 135:14 137:7 137:14 138:2 140:11 144:25 **electric** 3:18 30:22 31:8 115:3 120:25 121:6 153:10 **electricity** 48:16 137:23 151:18 ,19 **electronic** 199:9 **elephant** 94:16 **elevator** 113:25 **ELs** 11:13 12:13 14:11 29:22 44:23 45:1 ,6 48:5 133:3 148:14 148:20 153:22 174:14 182:5 **else** 6:19 31:16 33:21 40:25 106:15 169:22 172:10 202:3 **embedded** 116:13,24

**Emerson** 4:3 173:15 190:21 **emphasizing** 182:11 **employee** 205:8 ,9 **employment** 159:3 196:11 196:22 197:6 **enacted** 138:8 138:9 **encourage** 65:11 ,19 112:9 ,17 **encouraged** 67:12 **end** 32:6,7 57:23 66:14 71:6 76:19 92:6 115:8 127:9 ,10 143:25 174:17 191:14 194:7 204:18 **endeavor** 179:6 **ends** 101:12 **Energetics** 4:14 **energy** 5:24 8:25 9:7,10 9:19 10:16 10:18 ,22 ,23 11:24 12:18 12:23 13:13 14:1 15:5 16:22 19:6,8 19:9 ,15 ,23 20:4,7 21:9 25:23,24 28:6,9 ,9 29:15 ,25

30:1 33:10 34:20 38:22 38:24 39:16 39:18 40:1 ,4 40:15 44:14 55:22 ,24 56:1 ,7,13,19 57:14 58:17 59:3,6,9 62:9 87:8 120:12 133:1 140:11 140:13,14 149:13,19 ,20 149:24,25 150:10,12 ,16 150:19 ,20,24 151:4,15 ,16 151:24 152:7 152:17,23 153:6,9 154:22 155:14,18 156:11 159:2 169:9 ,11 171:4 181:11 182:1 191:21 192:4 195:22 201:18 **Enforcement** 165:14 **engineer** 48:23 **engineered** 175:2 **engineering** 5:13,24,25 10:10 20:13 31:8 33:10 33:12 70:13 70:14 84:24 109:12 117:12 ,22 159:18 ,23 186:5 ,9 ,16

## Meeting June 1, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 16 170:8 **enough** 38:5 64:8 77:19 101:14 109:22 114:22 129:12 130:4 130:16 145:12 188:21 195:13 199:13 **entail** 116:1 **entire** 71:25 108:4 166:3 **entirely** 39:6 40:3 **envelope** 155:25 **EPA** 180:23 **EPCA** 201:18 202:12 **equation** 150:21 181:10 **equipment** 17:16 20:11 22:15 ,18 ,21 24:8 ,9 35:22 51:16 53:22 54:23 55:2 57:5 59:10 61:19 78:7 79:23 84:3 96:11 97:21 117:17 120:12 ,17 140:25 141:20 144:12 150:3 151:25 153:24 154:2 154:4,12 155:15 ,17 167:3 173:25

189:3 192:18 195:4 200:23 201:5 **equitable** 60:2 **Eric** 1:25 4:4 64:25 67:1 68:14 69:9 69:11 ,15 106:23 109:14 110:18 111:15 112:24 201:15 ,22 202:19 203:3 **Eric's** 109:3 **escalate** 187:24 **ESP** 93:9 95:3 95:4,25 103:9 ,11 ,13 **especially** 24:7 88:16 **essential** 109:1 **essentially** 8:1 54:22 70:24 72:15 ,21 82:18 ,19 92:16 125:18 127:9 135:13 137:8 ,11 ,16 149:16 151:7 152:23 153:16 166:11 174:2 187:17 **establishing** 96:8 **estimate** 149:13 154:19 160:20 161:2 188:15 195:3

195:4 198:9 **estimates** 124:14 152:22 155:21 **et** 98:17 99:23 115:16 152:10 154:4 154:4 **ETL** 99:23 **evaluate** 51:20 **evaluated** 99:18 ,21 ,24 **evaluation** 71:14 161:6 **evaporator** 80:12 81:11 82:3 83:7 86:18 **ever** 144:6 178:10 189:11 **every** 50:19 56:21 154:4 166:8 ,8 170:19 ,22 171:7 174:13 190:24 197:19 **everybody** 3:2 3:3 29:25 39:4 67:4 113:14 132:2 **everybody's** 119:20 124:6 **everyone** 5:1 6:21 46:21 79:6 106:11 111:14 113:5 126:12 **everyone's** 51:4 108:2 **everything** 52:18 62:10

107:22 136:12 150:25 153:17 166:7 168:13 **everywhere** 50:4 **evolve** 63:15 **evolved** 63:14 **exact** 41:8 68:25 143:3 174:13 197:1 **exactly** 55:4 75:12 78:2 104:4 106:25 110:15 125:5 125:6 127:16 130:22 173:2 184:17 **examine** 159:3 **example** 13:13 30:17 32:1 32:18 52:17 56:22 75:1 76:10 77:7 80:5 81:7 85:9 88:6 95:14 107:5 117:6 122:1 146:8 147:13 156:15 159:16 173:16 183:25 191:10 192:17 **examples** 88:11 **exceeds** 180:3 **excellent** 18:14 **except** 81:9 140:24 194:6 **exception** 95:1

**exchange** 120:1 **exclude** 97:6 **exclusion** 141:3 **exercising** 65:24 112:22 **exist** 174:19 **existence** 51:22 **existing** 24:25 78:3 85:1 93:6 97:9 135:11 ,14 136:21 **exists** 51:12 **exit** 170:10 **expanding** 140:24 183:17 184:9 **expect** 117:14 125:7 203:24 204:7 **expectations** 203:23 **expected** 48:14 141:17 **expedite** 112:25 **expenditures** 160:24 **expensive** 86:7 182:2 **experience** 53:9 138:18 143:1 166:15 202:4 **exploring** 193:9 **export** 150:11 **exposed** 131:11 **extends** 182:8

## Meeting June 1, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 17 149:6 184:14 189:18 191:22 192:10,21 **exterior** 92:23 **external** 11:9 19:23 59:13 59:19 60:19 60:20,20,23 60:24 80:19 80:20 83:10 83:18 89:21 90:7,8 ,13 94:8 95:12 95:15 96:2 97:2 101:16 102:16 103:24 104:18 **extra** 86:16 101:23 145:20 156:17,20 **extremely** 64:22 **F face**  100:13,16 196:3 **facilitate** 5:12 **facilities** 195:2 195:5 **fact** 9:4,12 23:23 47:23 55:15 56:20 108:18 119:25 145:23 148:12 154:10 174:10,18 179:7 **factor** 24:10 30:1 131:7 139:3,5 ,9 ,10

143:10,11 145:10 **factored** 139:11 **factors** 142:20 159:2 178:4 178:6,8 180:14 181:24 **failure** 144:12 144:12 **fair** 109:22 114:22 197:2 **fairly** 5:20 43:3 124:18 136:3 197:4,10,13 **faith** 176:7 204:6 **fall** 146:19 ,25 **falling** 142:1 **fallout** 176:14 **fallouts** 190:16 **familiar** 153:21 **fan** 11:10,11 12:19 ,19 ,23 21:9 35:1 ,1 39:15 ,20 40:1 55:24 56:1 ,5 ,13 57:8 ,13,15 57:20,22 58:2 ,3,17 60:22 71:15 80:16 82:4 103:18 105:5 115:22 ,24 117:4,14 118:16 120:7 124:8 125:12 184:15 ,21 ,21 **fans** 80:23 89:25 180:19 183:21 184:13 185:4

185:5 **far** 27:5 35:1 48:9 53:23 113:2 128:20 144:18 171:4 193:16 194:4 **fashion** 82:10 **fast** 162:25 181:19 **FDA** 180:21 ,24 180:25 **feasible** 178:7 **feature** 90:4 175:17 **features** 37:20 191:20 192:11 ,23 195:18 ,21 **Federal** 189:21 190:9 **feedback** 160:1 161:4 164:19 ,20 165:8 ,17 167:9 176:16 188:16 195:11 ,14 **feeds** 8:24 **feel** 4:22 43:24 47:24 48:2 84:10 160:5 **feeling** 77:21 **felt** 75:13 **FEMALE** 133:7 **fest** 5:1 **fewer** 76:7,8 151:11 **field** 59:10 60:4,6 63:1 **field-supplied** 83:8 **figure** 97:2 105:1 165:23 197:11

**figures** 164:21 165:7 **file** 65:24 **filings** 159:21 161:3 164:17 **fill** 14:9 131:5 131:6,23 **filled** 131:16 132:4,13 **filter** 60:17 **final** 5:4 65:15 67:14 68:14 69:2 ,3,4 106:25 112:13,22 114:24 135:19 151:2 196:10 201:25 **finalize** 177:11 **finally** 41:19 71:18 **financial** 159:19 160:21 161:12 ,17,22 162:2 164:15 180:5 **financially** 205:11 **find** 47:13 109:19 153:3 177:2 **fine** 101:24 105:23 134:18 **finish** 113:9 **finishing** 116:9 **firm** 114:7 **first** 3:6 11:14 13:14,14 14:22 31:18 55:10 56:19 57:2 69:15

75:21 79:2 79:13,24 85:25 86:1 ,2 90:24 96:23 97:17,20 100:3 113:24 114:3 115:11 145:22 150:23 182:23 185:22 **first-cost** 51:13 152:22 **fit** 81:5 ,16 82:22 85:12 85:14 86:19 86:24 87:5 92:1 ,2 ,11 **fit-up** 85:7 **fits** 43:23 **fitted** 85:10 **five** 38:12 53:18 54:3 62:16 72:9 94:5 133:5 157:10 197:17,19 **flat** 142:6 152:21 153:5 164:7 **flatten** 17:19 **flea** 88:20 **flight** 5:9 ,10 45:18 114:6 **flights** 114:7 **flipping** 12:5 **floor** 79:1 98:7 113:24 114:3 139:1 ,13 **flow** 37:23 68:23 105:6 161:1 ,4,7 186:21

## Meeting June 1, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 18 **flows** 101:5 **fly** 115:21 **FMCS** 3:3,11 3:12 106:13 **focus** 59:7 159:11 176:25 183:3 194:22 **focused** 91:16 165:15 196:10 **focuses** 186:9 **focusing** 159:5 195:9 **folks** 91:7 116:8 ,24 158:23 185:14 188:23 **follow** 73:1 85:23 202:2 **follow-up** 168:20 **following** 158:3 **follows** 202:1 **foot** 73:3 **footprint** 41:8 **forced** 72:16 **forces** 37:24 164:3 **forcing** 37:22 **forecast** 29:13 140:25 187:8 **foregoing** 205:5 **forget** 14:19 **forgetting** 143:3 **forgiveness** 111:11 **forgot** 35:17 **form** 131:5 132:13 146:18

**format** 135:18 183:9 **forth** 155:11 **forum** 167:8 **forward** 28:4 64:21 79:5 107:14 108:11 116:5 162:25 194:5 **forward-cur ...**  80:23 **found** 24:14 94:9 **four** 9:5 38:12 53:18 54:3 67:10,13 83:23 86:18 110:19 136:8 **fraction** 11:6 16:20 17:1 ,3 17:10 22:12 23:10 38:19 39:7 42:1 128:2 146:16 **fractions** 16:18 24:11 **frame** 170:17 189:25 **framework** 69:7 **franchise** 147:24 **frankly** 109:13 **free** 103:1 104:8 161:1 161:4,7 **freezer** 176:10 **frequently** 87:12 150:19 **Friday** 21:25 115:8 120:24 **front** 97:1 98:7 124:23 **fuel** 151:18

**fulfill** 63:12 **full** 32:1 65:23 112:21 126:18 ,19 127:25 128:1 149:14 152:3 163:8 **full-fuel-cycle** 9:18 153:8 **fully** 131:5 **fun** 5:1 203:21 **function** 137:21 151:14 152:1 156:12 **fundamental** 191:17 **furnace** 57:8 57:10 117:4 117:13 118:19 120:6 124:15 125:17 183:22 184:15 ,15 198:10 **furnaces** 5:20 6:19 7:2 8:20 125:11 170:4 176:3 179:10 181:14 184:1 197:25 198:3 **further** 13:21 28:7 29:18 32:3 148:22 205:7 **future** 97:14 138:19 140:19 ,25 143:6 153:2 156:25 159:17 **future's** 173:12 **G G**  3:1 **gain** 186:20 **Gallowish** 2:12 4:17 **galvanized** 98:17 **game** 189:8 **gas** 7:2 30:23 31:2 33:20 33:20 34:10 71:8 115:5 115:24 117:4 117:13,13 120:6 121:1 121:5 127:15 198:25 199:9 **gather** 74:18 **gave** 16:2 107:5 123:7 131:11 **geared** 173:4,9 **gearing** 173:21 189:22 **general** 4:4 12:12 27:4 30:3 43:1 45:10 64:25 66:9 ,9 201:10 **generalized** 102:2 **generally** 30:23 57:6 145:12 186:15 193:11 **gentlemen** 33:25 **getting** 9:6 13:3,22 ,24 15:7,22 16:8

23:8 37:24 38:20 40:17 49:18 60:16 76:15 83:12 87:21 106:13 108:25 110:16 111:2 113:10 120:2 133:2 155:17 172:1 176:22 178:20 180:5 180:8 191:7 **give** 16:2 46:17 64:8 79:1 84:8 ,10 88:11 89:13 101:23 108:4 127:6 146:5 150:2 154:19 167:8 195:12 203:14 **given** 61:25 108:20 124:7 143:9 152:21 191:23 199:16 201:5 **gives** 57:9 69:22 135:20 150:5 152:3 160:12 ,13,13 160:23 161:4 193:13 202:20 **giving** 24:4 104:22 **glad** 108:14 123:6 **global** 182:11 **go** 3:5 5:20,24 10:18 12:19 28:4 33:4 34:8 38:8 41:5 43:16

## Meeting June 1, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 19 45:15 50:11 55:17 58:3 61:6,12 63:9 64:8 68:23 69:25 70:2 72:14 73:8 73:12 ,14,18 77:22 ,22 79:4 81:2 ,4 81:24 83:15 85:14 89:8 91:3 96:13 101:8 107:14 107:19 ,21 109:10 114:9 116:10 119:2 121:25 124:2 124:25 133:18 134:20 135:25 145:18 146:10,24 147:22 148:8 150:7 151:21 152:24 153:25 154:13 155:10 156:11 ,12 ,21 156:24 157:15 159:21 160:8 169:3,22 172:17,18 ,18 180:20,22 184:25 185:18 187:20 188:10 189:7 189:15 193:4 193:20 194:16 197:19 198:4 203:22

**goes** 25:1 28:6 35:11 42:17 50:11 51:10 84:15 ,19 121:14,14 134:2 138:15 139:11 144:4 145:2 ,3 146:16 149:9 157:18 ,18 ,19 169:2 173:11 176:11 179:11 194:4 **going** 5:7,11 5:15 6:22 10:7,11 ,14 10:16 12:18 13:6 15:6,8 17:5 18:12 22:24 25:6 33:6 37:8 ,13 40:1 41:14 42:25 43:16 44:4,4,6,6 45:22 46:1 ,1 47:18 50:3,3 50:6,11 53:7 55:14 57:19 60:8 62:23 63:2 64:14 66:23,24 68:24 72:14 72:20 73:8 73:13,21 74:4,6 75:7 80:6 86:13 86:22 87:12 89:14 94:17 95:10 98:17 98:18 99:9 102:22 105:8 106:18 ,22 ,23 106:24,25 107:19 109:4

110:21 ,22 111:18 114:8 116:7 120:3 121:24 122:2 122:3 123:17 125:6 126:2 133:17,20 136:25 140:9 142:17,20 144:18 145:14,17,18 146:11 148:20 150:7 151:25 154:3 157:21 159:14 164:10 166:16,23 167:10 168:10 169:17,21 170:10 171:9 171:9 ,15 172:18 ,21 ,21 173:12 174:6 174:25 175:4 175:5 ,9 ,14 175:25 177:22 178:23 180:2 180:20,21 ,25 181:7,13,23 184:25 185:10 187:16 188:4 188:14 192:6 194:13 198:18 203:11 ,11 ,13 203:18 **going-in** 61:21 **Gollapudi** 1:12 **gone** 11:18 ,19 11:20 38:5

43:8 ,9 44:24 44:24 148:6 **good** 3:2 6:21 18:7 24:3 33:24 34:14 41:18 45:7 47:11 64:15 69:22 79:6 87:17 88:24 103:6 104:15 106:5 111:12 111:19 ,21 117:17 169:20,21 172:10,11 174:7,11 ,15 176:5 ,11 ,12 176:16,18 178:3 181:3 181:22 195:1 200:24 204:6 **Goodman** 3:20 47:4 114:15 168:7 188:3 **Goods** 160:17 **got** 5:8 ,21 7:14 22:25 29:10 31:10 32:25 37:9 38:3 41:6 42:5 47:21 66:19 69:2 75:9 ,10 78:21 80:15 104:8 106:8 108:17 111:18 113:15 122:12 132:15 157:13 165:12 175:21 180:18 ,19 ,21 183:11 ,12

198:17 202:10 **grab** 54:9 **granularity** 24:5 **graph** 126:9 127:3,5 ,25 135:6,23 142:4,11 ,13 **graphical** 183:9 **graphs** 135:17 136:3 **great** 38:16 45:23 59:22 90:18 106:12 133:9 170:9 204:8 ,15 **greater** 39:21 60:22 **Greg** 1:22 4:9 5:19 6:15 ,16 6:18 9:23 18:1 21:15 25:22 26:7 33:5 ,17 46:14,23 62:5 159:7 161:11 201:12 **Greg's** 6:9 47:2 78:8 167:12 **GRIM** 161:25 194:23 **grimace** 203:3 **gross** 162:19 163:2 ,3,5 **ground** 145:8 **group** 1:1 4:21 63:16 65:1 65:11 ,19 67:25 68:4

## Meeting June 1, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 20 86:3 97:8 107:11 108:4 110:24 111:24 112:10,17 115:20 116:6 116:17 119:5 119:8 ,21 124:23 125:7 199:5 202:1 204:5 **Group’s** 68:6 **grow** 87:24 94:17 **grown** 28:3 **growth** 29:7 87:11 89:5 139:14 **guaranteed** 58:12 **guess** 12:20 12:23 20:3,5 20:12 21:21 38:10 43:17 45:5 ,8 48:13 50:5 ,16 52:2 61:18 ,19 85:14 96:13 109:5 110:6 110:8 115:13 117:8 118:9 121:8 125:9 131:12 132:20,21 133:8 134:22 138:13,20 140:16 155:19 157:10,16 173:20 174:9 174:12 176:2 178:4 179:1 187:23 188:3 189:5 ,8 ,9 190:3 197:5

198:13 **guidelines** 61:22 **guys** 33:24 47:22 48:1 62:14,15 63:9 84:2 108:14,18 109:4 113:9 113:10 117:9 123:16 129:23 133:20 189:13 **Gymnasium** 37:11**H hairdryer**  7:1 **half** 31:14 47:13 96:19 140:15 **hand** 47:2 100:21 117:6 146:9 **hands** 111:3 **hang** 61:2 92:6 **happen** 125:6 133:20 146:11 170:2 **happened** 63:3,4 69:2 137:24 139:16 142:19 186:15 **happening** 28:12 37:3 148:4 170:6 170:21 181:10,11 **happens** 36:6 36:15 56:21 57:7 60:4

92:3 147:23 165:25 169:24 172:23 **happy** 33:25 113:14,17 124:6 132:13 **hard** 23:15 73:2 109:4 110:10 143:9 143:9 178:11 181:19 194:25 203:6 **harder** 167:7 **hardly** 59:18 **Harvey** 1:23 3:22 21:15 57:3 74:12 82:9 87:7 88:10 89:1 92:4 93:2 ,8 94:24 100:17 101:8 ,25 103:8 104:7 104:20 111:15 113:7 121:7 134:2 146:13 182:6 191:16 200:10 203:3 **Harvey's** 101:5 **has** 9:15 ,22 10:8 ,10 11:9 11:19 12:17 21:12 25:22 28:3 32:14 33:22 36:19 39:6,12 ,14 39:18 40:2 44:12 53:9 55:19 59:15 63:14 65:13 67:14 68:3 68:23 69:8

71:3 73:20 79:12 82:2 ,3 89:5 95:9 ,14 99:1 100:11 100:21 102:16 104:4 104:7 107:10 109:16 112:11 120:6 126:14,14 128:13 132:2 139:14 141:13 148:1 162:20 163:11 167:24 169:6 170:2 ,22 178:19 184:2 190:18 192:8 195:18 196:11 201:20 202:19 **hasn't** 9:15 11:19 **hate** 89:25 101:25 148:18 **haven't** 26:1 78:16 139:11 161:12 ,13 181:20 196:16 200:11 **having** 37:7 58:2 73:4 86:24 100:12 100:15 131:9 142:12 177:8 178:21 188:19 189:13 191:12 **he'll** 10:17

**head** 193:9 **heading** 5:2 **hear** 62:23 63:23 69:21 80:9 108:14 150:19 176:5 179:21 183:6 204:7 **heard** 10:10 67:9 ,10 69:14,17 79:10 107:17 145:17 157:25 187:13 195:14 **hearing** 69:15 93:7 **heat** 12:17 30:22 ,23,23 31:1 ,9 33:20 33:22 34:12 57:9 ,9 71:8 ,8 81:22 88:8 92:1 100:23 115:3,3,5 ,6 115:24 117:13 119:25 120:1 120:25 121:1 121:2 ,5 ,6 125:19 127:3 127:14,15 ,15 140:24 156:19 198:19 ,25 199:9 ,9 **heating** 97:21 **heavily** 156:25 **heavy** 172:24 **height** 81:4 82:24 101:19 101:22 102:3

## Meeting June 1, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 21 **heights** 90:12 **help** 22:7 28:8 66:1 89:22 111:14 169:12 179:18 189:14 195:24 199:3 199:11 **helped** 61:5 **helpful** 64:20 64:22 66:25 138:5 164:13 189:14 191:14,22 195:16 201:6 201:10 **here** 3:6 5:3,10 5:13,14 8:8 9:1 ,21 11:11 11:16,23 12:7 14:4,4 15:17 17:4 17:14,14 19:21 27:16 28:10 33:11 36:15 ,16,20 42:16,17 43:1 45:7,7,9 45:14,15 46:2 51:15 51:17 55:8 56:14 57:13 58:19 ,21 60:9 ,12 66:20 67:20 68:13,16 69:10 71:1 71:10 72:10 72:20 73:3 73:17,20,20 73:21 74:2 ,6 74:7 75:16 75:18 76:11 77:11 79:19

80:1 ,6,14,15 80:16 81:14 82:1 83:6,13 89:17 90:25 93:25 94:21 97:18 100:3 100:5 101:15 102:16 116:2 116:19 ,23 121:21 122:15 123:2 123:10 125:6 125:19 126:16,23 133:16 135:7 135:17 137:5 138:14 142:24 143:11 144:19 ,21 146:4,25 147:6 150:9 151:16,22 152:14 154:9 155:13 156:15 161:13 164:15 ,21 ,25 167:25 176:7 176:17,25 179:16 187:22 ,25 188:20 190:22 193:21 194:2 196:22 201:15 202:17 204:5 204:12 **here's** 6:2 126:23 183:9 **hesitate** 203:1 **Hey** 33:24 **Hi** 54:21

158:23 **high** 32:7 37:5 48:16,17 51:3 80:20 87:9 125:14 145:25 147:15 182:22 ,25 188:12 191:23 195:12 **high-velocity** 96:10 **higher** 9:7,12 11:12 12:18 27:11 ,14 29:22 30:4 36:19 ,22 ,22 36:24 39:18 40:18 41:3,9 41:14 51:9 56:14 58:17 60:11 73:5 77:14 78:5 80:24,25 81:1 ,5 83:19 94:7 95:3 117:20 154:13,14 168:11 ,14,15 173:8 181:16 188:1 189:24 193:20 194:10 **higher,but** 194:16 **Hillbrand** 3:25 3:25 **historic** 138:5 138:14,18 143:5 **history** 138:17 **hit** 13:7 58:1 **hold** 78:24

144:1 **holds** 45:3 **home** 5:3 61:16 **honest** 161:9 184:4 196:12 **honestly** 203:24 **Hootman** 1:13 4:1 ,1 7:1 18:22 ,25 33:17 34:3,3 34:9 ,25 36:14 37:2 37:11 ,18 52:20 53:5 54:6,13,16 55:4 60:20 60:23 61:2 ,3 74:18 ,23 75:2 88:13 98:12 ,15 99:19 110:6 110:15 118:24 119:3 119:6,10,14 122:16,19 ,21 122:25 123:2 123:8 ,15 129:25 130:2 130:21 131:8 136:6,11 ,15 138:11 ,21 142:6,8 147:21 154:24,25 155:6 157:15 158:3,13 167:14,14,20 167:23 168:4 169:18 170:13,15 ,19 170:25 171:3 171:20

172:16 173:18 174:4 180:24 181:5 183:20 184:18 ,24 189:15 191:25 192:20 197:15 198:4 198:12 ,15 **hope** 10:19 63:10,10,11 63:19 ,25 64:5 69:11 133:19 **hoped** 69:20 **hopefully** 96:14 108:6 112:24 113:13,15 180:13 194:3 **hoping** 140:8 193:16 **horizontal** 80:2 ,4 83:22 83:25 86:14 87:2 88:1 90:12 91:2 91:14,14,16 93:18 94:4 101:24 102:8 **horizontally- ...**  82:23 **horizontals** 88:14 **horsepower** 37:15 80:25 83:19 **hot** 7:8 33:22 34:12 35:6,8 **hour** 48:17 83:3 84:10 **hours** 198:10

## Meeting June 1, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 22 **house** 204:9 **housekeeping** 204:9 **Hower** 2:9 4:16 **however** 6:12 19:10 29:24 49:7 159:11 161:16 162:13 163:15 164:8 167:8 **Huang** 2:17 4:18 **huge** 20:6 35:5 41:11 134:11 166:17,17 **hugely** 197:21 **hunch** 87:22 **hundreds** 19:21 **hung** 92:17 **Hunt** 1:14 3:24 3:24 18:1 ,1 ,7 18:11 ,18 19:3 54:21 54:21 84:1 ,1 84:6 94:13 94:13,16,23 **hurry** 155:21 **Hurst** 1:15 3:19 ,19 48:24,24 63:7,7 64:14 139:5 ,8 143:14,14,24 161:19 ,19 ,25 162:7,21 ,23 163:21 ,21 166:18 ,18 ,23 198:6 **Hurst's** 51:10 **HVAC** 146:18 **hypothesis** 95:23

**hypothesize** 67:22 **I I'd**  20:12 56:11 101:24 **I'll** 6:18 8:23 9:21 10:15 15:11 ,15 16:24 17:3 17:22 18:5 29:18 34:15 43:17 47:4 54:1 ,1 62:12 66:12 67:3 67:10 70:12 88:13 113:3 126:6 132:12 158:24 160:5 161:9 162:17 162:17 194:24 196:12 199:6 202:4 **Idaho** 53:16 **ideas** 108:20 **identical** 71:21 202:9 **identify** 16:25 96:24 128:25 **identifying** 124:4 **IEER** 14:6,11 26:11 30:9 31:5 33:13 33:16 57:18 58:1 59:5 ,8 71:7,15 72:21 73:11 97:12 103:2 104:2 115:2 115:15 ,23,25 117:6 120:15 120:25 121:3

121:4,14 125:7,16 133:4 141:13 174:13 198:25 199:8 199:16 201:5 **IEER-optimi ...**  141:20 **illegal** 69:10 69:12 **illustrated** 146:13 **illustrates** 58:15 **image** 7:6 **imagine** 190:25 **immediately** 105:18 **immune** 181:7 **impact** 12:22 19:10 20:9 21:12 44:14 58:21 62:4 71:14 86:23 117:16 122:5 122:7 125:15 133:16 134:12 143:4 143:13 159:1 159:1 166:21 171:9 173:10 180:6,19 181:11 ,23 183:11 184:11 185:11 **impacted** 12:16 16:19 45:12 166:8 166:9 **impactful** 19:7 19:14 20:4 **impacting**

143:8 **impacts** 62:7 149:12 ,14 150:17 152:5 159:3,6 183:13 **IMPB** 183:3 **implement** 139:23 **implemented** 75:10 77:13 137:15 **implication** 63:1 ,8 **important** 5:14 16:17,22 50:2 55:22 56:25 68:15 80:6 83:6 132:22 133:4 133:5 ,10,15 133:25 146:13 178:16 181:18 ,24 191:19 ,21 **impose** 96:2 **improvement** 97:15 **inaudible** 13:19 37:11 38:2 45:21 50:8 ,22 54:10 92:25 114:21 120:20,21 127:1 138:12 154:24,25 156:7 168:10 168:16 181:12 185:8 186:13 **inbox** 110:9 **incentive**

54:22 171:5 **inch** 60:15 61:7,12 80:20 83:15 104:17 **inches** 11:9 81:4,19 82:24,25 85:12 94:6 101:19 102:3 102:4,17 103:10,11 ,24 104:12 **include** 10:23 97:23 102:2 112:2 127:3 146:19 150:24 165:21 169:8 197:8 **included** 65:4 90:7 140:20 **includes** 11:6 129:10 153:9 191:19 **including** 65:20 103:8 112:18 159:2 202:6 **income** 160:14 160:23 **incorporate** 29:17 44:3 187:9 **incorporating** 11:7 15:19 44:2 **incorporation** 15:3 **incorrectly** 8:4 77:17,19 **increase** 16:19 17:20 41:12

## Meeting June 1, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 23 55:14 73:23 73:25 74:5 ,9 139:5 ,7,8 145:5 152:24 156:14 163:6 164:9 178:21 186:21 **increased** 22:4 38:11 56:5 97:7 118:11 118:12 **increases** 15:23 17:18 163:14 183:5 **increasing** 11:10 184:8 184:9 **increment** 50:15 ,16,18 **incremental** 186:10 **increments** 50:2 **incur** 41:3,14 52:21 178:23 **incurred** 11:4 **incurring** 8:16 38:15 60:12 **independent** 7:21 **Index** 140:23 **indicate** 17:3 23:23 **indicated** 20:16 23:9 24:12 34:16 47:6 166:21 **indication** 127:6 176:17 **individual** 135:24 149:8 200:17 **individuals** 3:10 157:7 169:15

**indoor** 8:2 71:15 80:11 81:15 ,23 89:15 98:5 99:2 ,6 101:6 101:7 115:22 117:4 **indoors** 98:18 101:11 **industry** 51:8 52:3 84:13 98:23,24 107:10,25 108:5 ,5 148:25 149:7 149:8 159:2 160:3,11 161:3,3,6 163:11 164:24 165:1 165:6,8 168:12 170:6 177:7,14 181:23 182:10 183:17 184:9 184:10 185:24 186:11 ,20 187:2 194:25 196:12 200:12 **industry's** 108:12 **inelastic** 135:17 **infer** 130:24 **inflate** 50:18 **inflated** 48:7 **inflation** 187:24 **influence** 182:17 **influences**

141:14 **information** 8:5 32:4 46:22 64:8 ,9 70:1 ,2 71:7,9 75:19 77:19 78:2 94:10 107:17 115:7 116:2 122:22 123:24 124:22 126:19 128:7 134:15 148:23 157:5 164:13 168:21 199:7 199:13,17 200:7,22 **informational** 128:4 **inherent** 90:3 **inherently** 87:23 **initial** 66:5 78:15 **initially** 77:13 90:25 97:22 **inlet** 81:12 100:12 ,14 **innovating** 193:5 **innovation** 193:15 **input** 7:14 55:25 63:16 63:17 125:12 149:22 199:4 **inputs** 15:9 150:10 151:21 159:14,15 **INPV** 107:22 109:11 159:6 161:6 176:25

182:24 183:5 **install** 56:22 63:3 137:19 **installation** 10:12 ,24 11:3 80:18 92:18 ,22 98:5 198:11 **installations** 15:6 59:17 77:2 88:12 **installed** 11:2 15:21 16:3 38:25 47:7 48:5 49:24 62:21 80:5 81:19 ,23 82:5 88:2 ,4 101:11 152:2 **instance** 73:1 97:13 115:25 121:5 **instead** 69:7 95:19 144:18 **intellectually** 141:10 **intent** 126:1 176:25 **intention** 127:25 **interaction** 56:24 171:10 **interest** 94:1 116:6 **interested** 59:2 168:17 205:11 **interesting** 27:15 111:6 141:11 **interior** 82:23 92:22 **internal** 114:16 120:7

**interpolations** 115:16 **interpret** 126:16 **interpretation** 203:4 **interpreted** 8:5 **interrupt** 27:19 **interrupting** 105:17 **intervals** 148:19 **interview** 33:25 **interviews** 159:22 160:2 164:19 165:9 165:15 166:21 167:2 187:19 ,21 188:22 **into** 3:6 5:24 8:24 16:24 17:3 22:18 22:24 23:1 24:16 28:6 37:22 ,24 44:14 48:1 55:25 58:19 59:25 61:7 69:25 70:2 81:17,17,18 83:12 ,19 85:7 88:8 ,21 89:12 90:1 100:24 111:3 117:20 121:25 129:4 138:15 142:17 144:18 145:16 146:16 152:5

## Meeting June 1, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 24 155:2 ,4 159:21 162:17 165:23 169:2 169:12 176:22 177:7 180:5 187:9 195:19 196:17 198:11 203:1 **introduced** 96:19 **introducing** 40:14 **introductory** 5:18 **intuitively** 19:12 20:5 36:5 **Investigating** 121:19 **investigation** 121:20 **investments** 163:15 ,17 **involved** 76:14 116:16 122:10,14 196:16 **involves** 96:24 **IOUs** 3:24 54:22 **IPAs** 7:10 203:23 **isn't** 14:22 94:6 120:10 123:10 174:20 182:2 **issue** 10:12 69:3,4 88:17 89:7 93:15 100:24 108:11 116:3 126:22 180:17 182:7

196:10 198:16 204:9 **issues** 5:13,24 6:20 62:16 62:17,19 ,22 62:22 85:7 121:23 126:4 156:2 190:14 196:5 ,8 203:9 **it’s** 96:21 **itching** 195:19 **item** 100:5 103:16 **items** 67:12 ,12 203:17 **J Jacobs**  2:11 4:16 **James** 1:7 4:11 **January** 115:11 ,12 171:22 173:5 189:6 **Javier** 1:21 3:12 63:22 **Jeff** 2:14 4:17 **Jill** 1:13 4:1 33:18 34:3,8 36:14 52:15 55:4 61:3 141:23 154:25 167:14 **Jill's** 62:22 **Jim** 2:15 4:17 115:13 117:2 118:6 124:13 126:1 199:1 **Joanna** 31:16 **job** 106:13 170:9 ,10

**John** 1:9 ,15 3:19 4:6,24 43:15 47:15 48:24 49:11 50:24 51:10 55:5 56:18 57:3 58:9 63:7 66:1 67:5 68:12 86:2 ,11 ,25 91:15 102:14 106:20 132:19 134:5 143:14 146:2 146:12 147:21 154:6 161:19 163:21 166:18 168:6 174:6,21 177:5 192:8 **joining** 3:3 **joint** 180:12 **judgment** 25:19 **juggle** 5:12 **jump** 14:16,18 73:6 90:21 **jumping** 19:1 **jumps** 41:9 **June** 1:3 6:4 66:20 205:12 **justice** 10:14 **justified** 90:3 178:8 184:11 184:12 **justify** 141:3 **K K-Mart**  61:17 **Karen** 1:19 62:6 66:6 106:17 108:13

132:12 142:22 148:24 176:21 178:2 **Karen's** 181:2 **Katie** 1:8 4:7 6:16 29:18 29:19 44:5 52:21 140:17 146:4 157:15 157:21 185:23 **Katie's** 161:12 **keep** 96:2 ,16 129:11 148:18 154:15 156:9 162:20 166:5 197:5 204:14 **kept** 21:6 22:14 **key** 56:14 89:16 190:13 **killing** 96:17 **kind** 5:11 ,18 12:8 19:1 ,12 19:13,13 30:3 36:22 55:23 56:1 58:14,15 59:4 64:16 77:17 79:24 87:20 90:17 100:14 108:2 108:4 110:12 115:25 141:4 145:1 ,16 146:6 147:18 154:15 169:20 170:18 ,24 171:1 ,7 175:18 187:19

189:12 194:22 197:15 201:16 **knew** 63:14 128:18 **know** 5:5 7:8 7:13 8:13 9:5 11:16,23 12:8 15:7,11 15:14 16:18 19:20 20:13 21:5 24:5 25:5 ,6,15 ,15 26:3 27:3,4 27:15 29:5 31:23 32:10 33:5 ,14,20 35:21 36:6 37:13 38:23 40:7 41:15 45:10 48:10 48:16 49:15 49:24 50:24 50:25 51:3 51:17 52:6,6 52:17,17 53:8 ,10,16 53:20,22 ,22 54:16,18 55:6,7,9 ,17 55:18 ,24 59:1 ,18 ,24 60:4 61:25 63:2 ,20,23 65:16 66:7 68:19 69:11 69:12 ,21 71:4,4 73:21 73:22 74:8 74:10 77:19 77:21 ,22 78:23,24

## Meeting June 1, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 25 79:1 ,1 81:14 83:11 ,21 85:15 86:6,8 86:25 88:14 88:16,21 ,22 89:11 ,20 90:11 ,14 91:20 93:3 93:16 96:19 96:20,23,25 97:3,3,10,17 98:7,8 ,15 100:13 101:22 102:5 107:12 ,14,16 107:17 108:4 108:6,7,9 ,16 108:22 ,25 109:7,12 ,15 109:18 110:8 110:10,16,21 112:14 113:23 114:5 114:8 116:12 116:18 117:13 118:12 119:5 119:19 120:20,24 122:14,21 124:7,16,16 124:22 125:13 126:17 127:8 128:1 ,2 ,16 128:18 ,21 ,23 128:23 129:7 130:8 ,9 ,22 130:23,25 131:3,16,21 131:23,25 132:5 ,17,18 132:22 133:8 133:9 ,11 ,16 133:19 ,22

134:6,8 ,19 136:3 137:14 138:11 ,20 139:4,18 141:25 142:15 ,19 143:7,9 144:1 ,5 ,9 145:7,24,25 146:3,5 147:23 148:2 148:6,8 ,11 148:11 ,13,21 148:25 151:6 154:7 155:9 160:3 163:24 165:7 167:10 170:7,10,20 171:8 172:9 173:6,12 ,12 174:1 175:10 176:9 177:22 177:24,25 178:10,21 ,24 179:1 ,1 ,2 ,4 179:11 ,20,23 179:25 180:2 180:5 ,8 ,20 181:1 ,2 ,3,19 185:13,23 186:7 187:9 189:25 ,25 190:6,8 ,9 ,10 190:11 191:1 191:2 ,25 192:24 193:3 193:15 ,16 194:6,7,9 ,14 194:21 195:9 195:17,23 196:13 197:1 197:15 ,23 198:5 199:15 199:21 ,22

200:19 ,25 201:17 202:17 203:25 **knowing** 184:24 **known** 87:4 **knows** 32:7 46:9 130:1 190:5 200:19 200:20 **Krowka** 4:14 4:14 **Kylie** 2:25 205:3,17 **L lab**  4:8 29:20 34:6 **labeled** 163:25 **labor** 196:14 197:18 **lack** 43:18 192:10 **land** 46:1 **landscape** 41:17 **language** 99:17 101:14 106:19 ,23,24 107:23 **large** 9:18 ,19 35:9 37:8 ,13 37:13 38:19 42:7,7,14,14 54:15 55:16 70:23,24 71:18 ,22 72:6,8 77:9 77:11 78:7 78:18 85:16 89:5 125:20 125:22 128:22 140:9

156:17,18 ,19 156:20 179:16 **largely** 137:6 **larger** 24:11 72:17 73:6 76:15 ,15 77:15 ,21 84:16 86:22 88:6 149:2 **last** 5:6 7:14 7:25 8:15 ,21 9:3 11:1 ,12 12:6,7,9 13:23 14:5 14:20 15:2 15:10,25 17:22 22:10 22:19 23:5 ,8 38:16,17,21 39:25 41:19 41:20 42:5 42:21 43:3 43:10,13 44:2 ,25 45:2 64:4 70:20 71:6 75:9 ,11 78:10,18 ,18 78:18 79:21 94:2 ,25 102:24 115:1 115:10 117:19 121:12 ,13 126:7 128:9 135:18 137:6 138:1 ,6 139:22 140:22 144:11 152:16 158:22 176:3 178:18 **late** 18:9 21:25

33:25 110:6 204:12 **later** 5:25 11:25 16:25 17:4,13 21:13 71:17 110:4 160:6 **latest** 84:21 153:6 **latitude** 69:22 202:20 **Lau** 1:16 4:10 4:10 158:23 158:23 160:17,19 161:22 162:4 162:8 ,12 ,16 162:22 ,25 163:23 164:15 165:11 ,13 166:10 167:1 167:19 ,22 168:2 176:8 176:24 182:20 183:8 183:14,25 185:22 186:5 186:14 187:5 187:7,15 188:17 194:19 196:3 196:25 197:4 197:10,22 198:7,14 **laughing** 197:16 198:21 **Laughter** 6:25 7:4,12 14:25 18:9 19:17 21:23 34:16 46:8 ,11 70:8

## Meeting June 1, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 26 78:20 102:12 105:10 122:17 **launched** 68:8 **law** 173:16 193:23 194:1 194:13 **Lawrence** 4:7 29:19 **lawyer's** 111:3 **lawyers** 110:13 **lay** 59:23 **layer** 186:12 **layout** 59:12 60:7 **LBNL** 4:9 130:8 **LCC** 40:5 41:21 ,22 42:4 43:6,8 43:12 134:23 135:2 ,21 150:10 152:3 152:3,6,9 ,12 152:13,18 **LCCP** 182:12 **lead** 141:20 193:4,8 **leading** 147:9 **leads** 148:11 194:9 **leaning** 89:2 **leap** 176:7 **learning** 137:13 140:20 141:4 141:16 **leasable** 148:9 **least** 27:5 31:8 33:6 36:10 47:13,25 50:4 90:7 94:11 98:21 102:17

104:12 108:19 124:16 128:18 147:9 148:14 164:24 168:5 182:7 186:16 187:10 199:8 **leave** 104:25 132:5 174:15 **leaves** 176:12 **LED** 56:22 57:4 **leeway** 101:23 **left** 64:17 71:24 83:13 93:23 157:13 176:4 **legal** 67:8 68:9 107:13 108:21 110:7 112:25 **legislation** 98:22 **leisure** 73:10 **Lennox** 3:19 48:24 63:7 123:14 143:14 161:20 163:21 166:19 **less** 8:14 9:2 9:14 13:4 15:23 17:18 18:23,23,24 35:3 38:20 44:19 56:23 57:9 ,9 81:4 81:19 82:24 82:24 86:22 87:8 130:11 130:22 131:1 131:7 132:2

133:18 137:17 146:15 176:12 ,12 196:23 **level** 6:14 9:17 9:20 11:7 13:3,8 15:21 15:23 16:4,7 16:13,20 17:11 ,15 ,19 20:11 ,17,19 20:20,22 ,23 21:3,6 22:12 22:20 23:1 24:5 31:25 32:1 ,2 ,12 ,13 33:16 36:7,7 39:5 ,13,16 39:18 ,19 ,22 40:6,12 41:22 43:12 43:13 55:11 57:15 ,18 58:1 72:12 72:15 ,24 73:22 ,24 77:4,14 96:6 101:17 115:4 115:23 133:11 ,24 147:1 150:12 152:1 154:2 169:21 172:7 173:8 ,13 174:10 175:14 181:16 186:11 190:5 193:14 195:12 199:13 **levels** 6:10 9:1 9:8 10:13,25

11:22 14:2 ,6 14:6 15:4,20 17:10 27:11 27:14 30:9 ,9 31:6,13 33:11 ,13 38:13,20 39:2 47:25 51:3,9 63:19 64:6 70:22 73:4,11 74:8 76:24 77:24 78:5 97:7,10 108:25 115:22 117:20 144:10 149:15 151:7 153:22 154:14,14 171:13 173:25 176:18 177:17 178:20,23 188:10 189:21 ,25 190:7 191:13 191:23 199:16 200:24 **lie** 47:12 **lieu** 113:13 **life** 8:9 20:9 49:2 51:16 51:20,25 52:1 ,4,10,14 **life-** 19:7 51:14 **life-cycle** 8:12 8:17,19 10:19 12:1 15:16 17:24 21:13 22:13 23:20 29:3

39:5 44:15 51:11 **lifetime** 8:3,5 9:10 62:21 **light** 36:18 37:4 88:23 **lighting** 56:22 **lights** 57:4 **like** 6:24 18:20 19:7 20:12 27:5 31:25 34:7,16 35:2 35:7,11 43:22 44:18 46:20 47:21 47:25 48:11 51:7 52:19 54:17,19 55:12 59:15 59:18 64:19 67:21 ,23 69:13,18 73:3 79:1 ,11 79:17,19 83:17 86:18 88:15 ,20,21 90:2 91:6 94:7 101:2 101:13 102:1 106:11 107:23 110:18 ,24 119:6,16 122:9 124:10 124:22 133:9 142:3 148:7 148:18 149:4 166:1 167:5 167:17 168:7 176:4 188:1 188:18 192:14 198:1 **likely** 28:8

## Meeting June 1, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 27 58:7 72:16 87:23 143:12 153:2 184:25 193:9 **limit** 101:23 **limited** 29:8 ,9 82:25 85:21 87:23 182:17 **Linda** 2:16 4:18 **line** 6:11 26:10 48:1 60:1 61:10,13 127:13,17 137:18 143:4 148:13 149:3 166:3,8 168:13 169:16,17 191:10 197:7 198:4,7 **linearly** 13:4 15:23 17:18 **lines** 36:19 37:3 55:5 68:19 140:19 148:17 173:22 191:11 199:6 **links** 60:1 **list** 3:9 62:14 83:24 179:11 195:18 **listed** 90:8 ,8 99:19 ,20,21 99:23 125:19 151:22 **listen** 5:15 194:25 **literally** 61:9 61:13 131:10 170:1 204:9 **little** 5:1 ,12 6:11 ,19 9:12 11:18 12:21

15:12 16:24 17:4,20 21:21 30:19 35:17 38:23 43:4 45:4,20 53:20 62:13 70:12 72:7 77:24 95:2 96:22 97:1 97:25 100:22 104:24 106:12 107:4 107:18 110:2 110:4,10 120:7 153:19 154:15 155:8 155:22 159:9 159:12 160:5 163:1 167:9 170:14 173:6 173:9 176:6 176:17 178:13 185:12 187:22 195:7 **lo** 155:10,11 **load** 12:17 56:23 **lobster** 155:10 **lock** 45:4 **locked** 145:16 **locking** 133:4 **logic** 158:3 **logically** 26:3 **long** 2:17 4:18 7:9 30:14 51:15 52:1 79:4 104:24 109:3 144:3 167:6 175:24 177:19 **long-lived** 51:16 **long-term**

141:1 **longer** 84:21 113:13 140:6 **look** 26:10 28:1 35:20 36:1 ,8 ,21 39:1 ,4,11 41:13 46:13 47:5 50:25 51:1 52:16 54:19 55:11 55:12 ,22 59:16,16 67:21 ,23 73:10 93:25 98:16 99:5 104:16 105:5 107:19 109:14 113:11 115:21 117:12 ,22 118:20 121:8 122:4 143:24 149:1 ,4 155:2 ,4 157:5 161:25 181:9 183:11 183:14 187:25 191:4 200:3 204:4 **looked** 7:15 10:4 24:14 43:17 49:1 55:19 71:23 74:24 76:20 83:16 90:5 94:8 120:24 121:2 138:4 165:19 **looking** 14:16 22:2 25:4 28:21 35:9 36:4 47:1

53:16 56:10 58:14 72:10 75:20 83:5 89:7 91:6 93:14 94:25 95:18 96:9 114:16 122:8 124:15 125:20 138:14 141:23,24 142:11 ,24 143:1 ,21 148:25 155:25 166:15 175:13 178:10 182:3 189:5 **looks** 10:3 43:22 46:20 79:17,19 83:17 106:11 142:3 177:15 **loophole** 87:24 **Lord** 31:15 172:4 **Lord's** 60:9 **lose** 41:16 **losers** 44:10 **losing** 40:18 **lost** 116:23,23 **lot** 6:6,11 9:12 15:7 29:24 40:1 ,25 41:3 41:8 ,9 ,13 45:9 48:2 51:8 52:16 55:25 59:17 62:7 63:15 64:11 75:9 88:1 94:18 126:7 130:20

130:21 142:19 147:9 147:10,12 158:16 159:15 ,15 172:8 181:5 193:7 201:7 **lots** 142:20 143:8 **loud** 198:21 **Louis** 1:24 3:23 12:4 14:14 19:4 21:24 22:1 25:21 30:6 33:4 36:14 44:1 ,8 53:10 58:24 105:4 119:23 136:17 187:15 189:4 189:16 190:20 **low** 32:5 36:23 44:18 48:17 51:19 73:22 88:3 125:14 128:17 130:18 ,19 142:8 166:15 182:23 183:1 187:6 **Lowe's** 61:17 **lower** 32:13 38:12 39:2 ,4 47:8 77:24 89:3 90:2 96:4 121:4 154:13 187:5 187:6 **lower-bound** 163:10 182:22

## Meeting June 1, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 28 **lowers** 145:4 **lowest** 55:1 **lunch** 70:1 71:5 102:10 105:12 ,19 ,22 106:10,15 **M machine**  81:18 **Maddox** 2:22 4:19 **made** 21:11 33:21 51:24 86:8 ,12 109:14 111:23 121:13 132:20 176:6 186:7 **magnitude** 133:2 156:4 **main** 3:8 6:12 134:24 **maintain** 31:6 188:9 **maintenance** 151:24 152:11 **major** 121:10 165:2 **majority** 8:15 **makers** 181:6 **makes** 6:14 41:10 48:7 94:18 146:12 146:13 **making** 49:6 58:25 68:23 128:9 182:7 182:14 187:1 202:16 **makings** 176:9 **MALE** 4:15 13:18 37:16 38:2 45:3,18

45:20 46:4 50:8 54:10 70:3 74:21 79:12 ,15 ,18 80:8 92:25 110:21 111:7 111:20 114:1 119:9 122:17 123:12 134:6 148:22 164:14 185:8 197:13 200:15 **man-hours** 167:5 **manager** 195:18 **mandated** 150:6 **manufacture** 82:17 83:21 158:25 **manufactured** 99:9 **manufacturer** 41:2 ,11 61:9 72:6,7 73:2 73:15 ,16,19 73:24 74:2 ,5 74:9 ,14 75:21 76:11 76:17,18 77:7 128:24 131:4 159:22 160:10 162:5 165:3 166:12 166:21 169:6 169:8 173:10 174:13 193:13 197:20 **manufacture ...**  74:13 **manufacture ...** 

129:21 **manufacture ...**  57:19 **manufacture ...**  9:24 43:19 43:23 47:24 57:23 58:1 72:5 ,8 ,9 ,16 72:23,25 73:9 76:7,8 76:13 83:23 83:25 87:2 98:11 116:16 122:10 124:17 128:23,25 129:1 ,2 ,13 130:4,11 ,16 130:20 131:2 131:5 ,10,13 131:14,15 ,21 131:22 132:6 132:8 133:15 134:4 160:1 160:2 162:19 163:5 ,7,8 ,10 163:13,16 164:17,19 165:18 166:2 172:1 ,14 173:21 178:22 187:18 193:4 193:8 196:23 200:17 **manufacturi ...**  159:3,18 **many** 85:18 150:14 167:6 191:12 199:15 ,22 201:4 203:23 **map** 141:23 **mapped** 22:18

**mappings** 22:15 **margin** 147:1 162:19 163:2 163:3 164:11 166:24 201:11 **marginally** 45:11 ,12 **margins** 163:25 **Mark** 2:18 4:18 50:20 **marked** 100:1 **market** 7:21 ,23 9:6,13 11:6 13:2 ,9 16:12 16:13,18 17:10 20:10 20:19 ,22 21:6 26:11 26:17 27:10 28:11 29:22 32:15 36:9 36:12 39:18 42:12 ,13 44:12 49:16 51:19 53:2 54:14 84:11 89:24 94:6 126:18 ,19 127:25 128:2 128:3,24 130:6 132:23 135:15 136:21 139:4 139:19 140:12 142:15 ,19 143:8 145:24 149:2 165:8 169:10 172:6 175:22 185:5 191:5 ,6

201:11 **market's** 201:7 **marketed** 93:19 98:22 **marketing** 43:17 48:2 ,9 48:12 ,15 ,20 **marketplace** 55:15 ,16,19 **markets** 51:13 88:21 **markup** 161:14 161:18 ,23,23 162:3,10,12 162:13,15 ,16 162:19 163:1 163:5 164:5 164:20 176:11 182:21 184:3 186:19 ,23,24 186:25 188:19 189:2 **markup's** 163:18 ,19 **markups** 159:19 160:11 163:11 176:13,19 182:21 187:8 188:10,20 192:9 **Marshall** 1:14 3:24 18:1 54:21 55:4 84:1 94:13 **match** 47:24 **material** 3:6 10:14 43:18 48:15 71:4 86:21 114:9 116:20

## Meeting June 1, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 29 **material-inte ...**  141:15 **materials** 48:2 **matter** 44:20 111:2 177:20 179:19 182:16 **mature** 141:17 **max** 156:15 158:11 **max-tech** 155:18 156:18 ,19 **maxima** 156:23 **maximum** 41:21 ,21 42:4 43:11 77:4,11 90:11 95:1 95:18 101:19 102:3,4 103:9 155:17 **may** 26:4 57:22 58:2 ,3 58:3,10,22 58:22 64:11 65:20 67:15 86:6 87:1 90:14 96:11 96:11 107:24 109:8 112:18 116:23 121:15 ,20 140:22 141:14 143:8 146:25 153:19 155:9 156:2 173:9 188:1 191:10 194:10,15 197:22 203:3 **maybe** 5:10 9:9 13:6 18:8 22:7 26:9

29:16 31:16 35:3 41:15 59:5 64:23 83:23 86:1 93:16 97:1 98:23 100:4 105:5 ,18 ,21 109:19 116:8 116:20 117:20 123:25 124:21 125:13 128:15 129:1 136:6 138:21 144:21 147:19 148:1 154:8 ,13 170:1 171:19 172:5 174:12 176:6 177:4 184:23,24 190:21 191:9 191:11 199:2 201:9 202:13 **McCabe** 1:17 4:12 ,12 **McCrudden** 1:18 3:15 ,15 **McDonald's** 147:25 **mean** 11:15 12:11 ,24 15:11 22:6 24:19 25:11 25:24 26:13 28:14,21 33:4,6 34:22 34:25 36:8 40:13 43:2 44:17 45:25 45:25 48:5 49:1 ,19 ,24 51:5 ,23 52:1

53:4,20 54:11 57:6 57:17,21 59:16,20 60:9 ,17 62:18 ,25 68:21 69:20 75:7,18 79:3 83:15 87:25 93:11 97:8 98:1 ,1 ,3,13 100:18 104:14 108:2 109:2 ,2 110:11 111:3 111:8 ,20 120:10 124:13 125:1 127:24 129:9 129:11 130:14,18 131:17,20 132:10,11 134:11 ,11 137:5 138:22 138:25 139:4 139:18 142:6 144:2 145:13 145:21 146:10 148:10,16 149:1 154:1 169:18 170:8 170:19 172:20 173:11 175:6 176:24 177:5 177:13,23,24 178:2 ,5 ,24 178:24 179:23 180:1 180:1 181:18 181:19 183:10

184:16,16 187:7 189:5 190:10,21 191:4 193:12 193:18 194:4 194:5 198:7 198:8 199:19 201:22 203:22 204:5 **meaning** 7:7 101:10 103:10 **means** 130:19 163:13 **meant** 21:20 107:6 137:2 **meantime** 5:17 **measure** 192:24 **measurement** 60:2 **measures** 56:3 192:3,13 **meat** 84:11 **mechanical** 141:13 **mechanics** 149:12 **meet** 31:25 32:11 33:16 57:18 84:17 84:21 ,24,25 85:1 92:11 103:9 104:17 114:12 163:15 165:16 184:20 189:9 190:7 **meeting** 1:2 8:1 14:3 15:2 15:10 17:23 29:17 38:17 42:22 43:10

43:16 64:6 70:13,15 ,20 71:6,19 75:4 78:19 79:21 85:24 86:2 105:19 108:23,23 117:19 132:20 176:3 188:24 **meeting's** 13:23 **meetings** 7:14 23:6 39:25 41:21 43:13 51:24 52:10 62:20 63:6 63:11 86:1 ,1 **meets** 175:21 **mein** 155:10 155:11 **members** 4:21 65:1 94:21 111:24 **memories** 202:17 **memory** 92:5 **mention** 50:21 120:1 **mentioned** 68:14 82:21 86:3 89:19 91:16 94:6 94:12 **menu** 154:15 **merge** 90:17 **merit** 65:10 112:9 **merits** 65:8 112:6 **met** 165:18 181:17 **metal** 98:17

## Meeting June 1, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 30 **method** 61:23 72:11 75:3 103:4 137:5 **metric** 59:8 65:17 112:15 184:22 201:19 ,24 202:12 **metrics** 65:4 112:2 159:19 160:21 161:13,17,22 162:2 164:16 201:16 **Meyers** 1:19 62:6 66:4,6 66:18 67:2 ,5 73:13 106:17 107:3,9 109:10 113:3 132:12 ,16 142:22 148:24 162:9 162:15 165:10,12 176:21 177:4 177:12 ,18 ,23 178:13,16 179:13,23 185:16 186:2 186:13 192:25 200:16 202:10,15 ,21 **MIA** 133:14 149:6,9 157:13 158:24 159:9 168:8 ,16,16 185:24 186:10 194:20 **mic** 64:24 **Michael** 1:17 2:19 ,20 4:18

4:19 34:5 **microphone** 198:22 **midpoints** 31:22 33:5 **might** 7:9 29:3 34:7 35:24 47:12 65:2 66:10 68:15 71:11 77:14 77:15 ,20 78:4,4 79:4 80:20 87:23 90:22 100:14 112:1 ,2 115:1 ,23 119:17 148:6 153:1 169:2 169:19 ,25 173:25 190:8 203:5 **migrate** 104:2 **Mike** 2:21 4:12 4:19 **mild** 54:18 **milder** 53:20 **million** 165:1 ,2 165:6,21 ,23 166:11 ,12 167:17,18 177:20 185:20 **mind** 34:1 85:24 96:2 97:16 113:1 129:11 132:24 134:1 136:25 147:8 189:11 197:6 **minds** 154:16 180:13 197:24 **mindset** 189:20

**minimally-c ...**  195:10 **minimize** 182:18 **minimum** 83:14 168:9 168:12 ,18 ,23 175:11 ,17 188:6 **minute** 70:5 123:9 **minutes** 46:13 157:10 **Mislak** 1:20 3:17,17 129:9 ,18 ,20 131:20 132:10 171:1 171:6 182:1 199:19 ,24 200:4 **missed** 18:16 26:9 **missing** 200:6 **misspoke** 141:5 157:23 **misspoken** 107:5 **mitigate** 179:9 **Mitsubishi** 3:18 59:11 **mode** 101:2 ,12 144:13 **model** 7:16 29:6,12 ,23 56:11 126:13 126:14 127:10 134:16,23 137:9 ,15 139:13,15 142:24 145:4 145:7 149:17 149:22

150:13,16 151:10 159:8 159:13 163:23 164:25 167:11 187:9 199:8 ,9 **modeled** 164:6 **modeling** 120:13,17 127:10 144:25 **models** 6:8 7:19 9:25 56:12 ,15 ,24 58:20 60:10 70:19 75:16 131:9 ,10 150:14 171:19 172:3 174:18 188:6 201:3,4,5 **modest** 29:7 70:17 **modifications** 134:17 140:5 **modified** 78:6 126:14,15 154:20 **modify** 97:11 **modifying** 127:10 **modular** 82:10 **moment** 52:12 162:17 **Monday** 33:25 **money** 51:4 54:23 **Montana** 53:16 **more** 8:14 9:2 9:7,13 12:21 13:4 14:18 15:23 17:18 17:22 19:7

19:14 25:23 25:23 27:10 27:14 28:7 30:19 40:15 43:4,24 51:8 52:4 54:17 59:4,9 ,23 62:23 69:22 71:17,22 72:7 74:21 75:8 ,15 76:11 ,13 86:18 88:11 104:8 110:2 111:22 117:18 ,21 120:1 ,6,7 122:13 128:6 129:1 132:21 133:3,25 137:17 140:11 144:22 146:17 148:8 150:8 151:22 153:1 ,19 155:8 156:25 159:9 162:9 163:7 167:9 173:19 185:12 188:14 190:2 192:7 194:19 195:7 197:18 198:16 201:9 204:14,14 **more-efficient** 41:15 89:6 153:2 **morning** 3:2 6:21 33:24 71:12 79:10 106:1 107:17

## Meeting June 1, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 31 108:8 110:3 110:9 ,10 114:11 ,13,21 115:17 116:12 201:13 **most** 12:15 30:25 43:20 53:21 55:11 58:7,10 86:21 109:24 152:19 153:20 172:6 173:22 191:10 **mostly** 33:20 **motor** 12:18 57:9 83:17 83:17 104:11 104:16,18 ,21 **motors** 80:25 83:19 **mouse** 73:17 **move** 8:23 10:7 28:11 28:22 38:5 ,7 42:25 43:1 63:20 64:3 64:20 72:16 75:17 103:2 104:9 111:1 114:14,24 116:5 ,19 134:22 148:16,17 149:10 158:21 **moved** 20:23 41:23 56:3 134:7 **moves** 156:17 166:4 **moving** 28:11 40:23 42:3 43:6 71:20

73:5 108:11 149:11 156:10 194:4 **MPC** 162:5 184:1 **MPCs** 160:12 161:9 163:6 164:9 185:25 196:14,16 **MPV** 34:20 **MTA** 159:20,21 **much** 5:21 6:17 9:5 13:1 18:14 19:10 20:2 ,8 25:16 33:15 35:10 36:9 40:4 52:4 61:15 64:9 70:4 87:10 104:22 114:8 121:4 130:9 133:25 134:7 144:14 146:17 147:3 152:12 153:4 156:18 ,23 157:1 164:10 168:14,15 172:17 188:14,14,14 189:25 191:5 191:6 199:21 **mull** 15:8 ,12 **multiple** 58:19 65:4 112:2 166:16 167:24 201:16,24 **multiples** 47:22 **multiplication** 149:18 **multiply** 160:10

**must** 37:25 ,25 82:24 93:8 **mute** 34:7 **N N**  1:4 2:1 3:1 **NAECA** 202:11 202:15 **nailed** 5:22 **name** 34:2 **nameplate** 100:1 **narrow** 96:14 **national** 29:15 34:20 87:8 133:1 149:12 149:13 150:10,20 152:5 155:14 175:11 **Navigant** 4:10 4:11 ,13 47:3 70:12 83:24 90:6 115:6 158:23 **NDA** 18:3 **nearing** 49:9 **neat** 154:8 **necessarily** 6:14 47:17 48:12 ,18 88:17 93:5 103:14 104:9 131:15 132:24 136:25 145:8 146:8 158:11 169:5 170:5 175:9 185:6 185:10 188:20 190:9 **necessary** 4:23 25:16 202:24 203:1

**NEEA** 3:23 12:4 14:14 19:4 22:1 53:11 58:24 105:4 189:4 **need** 24:24,25 35:2 36:10 37:15 59:7 61:24 62:11 64:9 ,10 66:21 81:16 88:8 96:1 105:22 107:13,21 110:2 114:8 114:10,13,17 139:2 155:3 166:5 167:10 170:24 188:10,15 195:20 198:17 **needed** 101:22 113:16 126:19 **needs** 17:11 114:12 117:20 179:1 **negative** 39:6 40:5 164:10 183:13 **negotiate** 50:6 65:12 ,19 66:21 69:12 112:10,17 133:19 148:20 204:6 **negotiated** 68:22 69:7 138:7 202:5 **negotiating** 7:9 69:10,17 154:11 185:14

193:22 194:3 **negotiation** 61:22 177:3 196:9 **negotiations** 5:2 48:7 64:21 **neither** 144:23 163:22 **NES** 150:20 **net** 8:14,16 44:7 51:2 55:14 **never** 182:1 202:11 ,15 **new** 21:19 26:17 49:7 49:14 52:7 62:19 77:3 78:7 125:6 126:4,9 127:22 134:23,24 135:1 ,5 ,10 135:11 ,14,16 135:21 136:22 139:2 144:14 146:16,17 147:15 ,16 150:1 159:7 161:9 ,11 168:11 ,23 169:11 172:24 175:14 185:17 188:6 195:4 **next** 8:25 10:9 11:11 16:11 19:2 22:4 28:6 78:23 96:14 102:19

## Meeting June 1, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 32 107:22 124:21 126:8 134:22 151:22 167:21 173:5 180:22 **NIA** 149:7,10 150:16 155:4 **nice** 41:6 94:24 154:7 167:2 195:21 **Nick** 1:20 3:17 200:18 **Nick's** 18:20 **night** 21:25 **nine** 53:19 54:3 128:22 **nitpicking** 100:18 **no-heat** 120:25 **NODA** 185:4 **nodding** 67:14 **nods** 75:9 ,10 **noise** 87:17 88:17 **nominal** 71:22 72:5 76:6,9 **nominate** 102:11 **non-compre ...**  152:15 **non-DOE** 165:22 **non-trivial** 176:20 **non-weather ...**  81:22 87:11 89:15 97:24 98:4,8 101:9 101:13 **nondisclosure** 18:5 **nonetheless** 95:22

**noontime** 5:11 **NOPR** 11:16 12:8 22:3 26:11 ,14 27:5 29:7 31:7 33:7 43:16 55:20 55:25 129:11 159:10 161:8 164:25 174:10,22 175:11 176:25 177:9 188:2 ,21 189:23 194:21 201:21 **nor** 205:8 ,10 **normal** 32:6 155:18 170:17 189:19 **northeast** 35:5 **Northwest** 59:1 **note** 27:4 30:17 40:24 **noted** 65:13 112:11 140:22 **notes** 20:12 **nothing** 57:17 78:1 143:19 **notice** 14:15 49:7 76:6,14 146:20 164:25 **noticed** 91:13 **notion** 144:9 **nowhere** 177:23 **NPV** 8:25 150:5 ,18 ,21 153:13

156:10,12 ,15 158:11 **NRDC** 3:25 **number** 11:17 12:9 14:16 37:5 50:19 54:15 64:19 80:20 94:12 111:16 113:23 117:23 130:19 141:14 145:25 162:20 181:19 191:19 196:22 ,25 197:1 198:10 200:16,17 **numbers** 5:5 8:1 ,2 ,22 9:14 10:5 12:2 ,3,7 14:4 15:6,8 15:13 17:25 19:17 26:8 26:14 28:14 28:18 29:1 31:22 34:21 38:10,16 42:14 43:25 44:25 47:9 47:16 48:3,7 49:21 ,22 50:15 ,17 53:24 72:2 77:10,23 78:6 116:2 126:16,17 127:11 ,13 128:17 129:15 ,17 133:10,12 144:3,17

145:22 151:16 154:18 ,19 155:8 ,23 158:15 ,16 162:1 164:18 177:2 ,10 182:25 186:16,17 187:19 ,24,25 194:15 ,15 196:11 ,15 199:20,20 **O O**  3:1 **o'clock** 5:10 46:18 106:3 106:5 ,6,9 109:25 113:21 114:3 203:13,14 204:17 **objective** 115:20 **obligated** 68:6 **obvious** 123:8 **obviously** 49:15 55:23 56:8 91:11 167:7 181:24 **occur** 10:13 **occurred** 10:23 **occurring** 11:21 156:16 **occurs** 65:22 112:20 129:7 **off** 3:7,9 6:3,22 27:5 53:23 57:9 83:13 85:17 106:22 110:4 124:2 128:20 142:4

160:1 ,15 ,24 160:25 161:3 161:10,11 ,11 164:16 165:8 170:1 178:25 185:5 197:14 197:21 ,21 198:1 **Off-the-record** 157:12 **offer** 83:21 92:11 116:10 174:11 **offered** 84:16 84:20 85:20 **offering** 84:16 84:17 174:13 **offerings** 10:1 164:3 **offers** 95:23 **office** 4:5 59:23 65:1 88:5 147:4 147:10 **offline** 67:20 71:14 116:21 **offset** 9:11 **often** 176:10 195:11 **oh** 13:11 14:21 14:21 ,23 18:14 30:13 32:22 37:21 38:3 46:4 73:17 78:18 78:21 79:17 105:20 106:4 111:6 118:10 136:23 156:5 158:13 174:5 175:21 **oil** 8:2 ,20 **okay** 3:2 4:24

## Meeting June 1, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 33 4:25 6:2 7:5 13:10 14:23 20:9 22:22 26:16 27:22 30:13,14 31:22 32:8 32:19 ,22 ,25 34:8 37:17 37:21 38:4 42:24 46:12 46:17 63:12 70:11 73:17 74:16 75:2 ,2 76:4,5 78:21 79:7,20 81:14 82:21 86:10 90:16 93:4,11 ,14 95:10 99:15 100:3 101:15 102:13 103:6 104:3 105:11 105:24 106:4 106:8 ,11 107:9 109:22 111:24 113:5 114:22 ,23 116:11 ,17 117:12 118:24 119:20,22 120:16,19 122:11 ,23 123:4,15 124:20 125:25 126:4 126:12 ,25 127:19 136:6 136:11 ,15 ,23 136:24 137:16 149:10 155:6 155:13 156:5 157:3 158:18 158:22 162:7

167:23 174:5 176:7 177:19 178:11 199:10,25 **old** 12:6 13:16 13:18 14:16 88:20 126:9 **older** 39:1 88:16 **OMB** 150:6 153:14 **once** 27:16,16 69:2 124:18 137:16 188:13 203:11 **one's** 163:22 164:10 **one-slide** 71:10 **one-third** 13:8 39:9 **ones** 13:12 **online** 34:4 203:10 **onto** 106:1 **open** 91:11 127:9 187:10 196:8 **open-ended** 192:8 **opened** 79:18 148:9 **opening** 203:10 **operate** 80:18 80:19 **operating** 8:10 19:24 57:16 101:1 104:9 135:3 137:20 137:22 151:3 152:25 153:1 156:14,25

160:20 163:3 163:12 ,20 164:1 185:19 **operation** 21:9 21:10 38:24 97:13 **operations** 198:8 **opinion** 55:20 **opportune** 167:13 **opportunity** 15:12 29:11 192:22 196:16 **opposed** 19:22 20:7 51:13 63:3 83:12 122:7 130:12 193:5 **optimal** 86:20 **Optimistically** 46:2 **optimize** 175:6 175:13 **optimizing** 175:5 **option** 65:23 112:21 **optional** 104:18 ,21 **options** 34:12 104:11 ,12 ,17 195:3 **order** 12:14 13:25 20:18 25:2 27:25 72:11 80:22 81:17 86:19 115:19 116:6 117:6 121:4 156:4 166:5 169:23 184:20

187:10 **orders** 82:13 **Oregon** 53:15 **organization** 188:11 **original** 87:1 101:9 **otherwise** 20:5 68:21 ,24 72:3 **ought** 95:24 **outcome** 40:8 185:2 **outcomes** 108:24 **outdoor** 7:24 83:11 95:1 95:15 ,18 ,19 97:3 99:4,6 100:11 ,11 ,18 100:20 101:3 101:5 ,12 103:10,13 **outdoors** 99:9 **outfit** 95:2 **outlet** 81:12 100:15 **output** 155:3 **outright** 153:4 **outset** 6:18 ,20 **outside** 56:2 ,6 56:9 57:25 62:9 69:8 80:15 88:9 92:17,17 **over** 4:24 5:5 5:19 ,23 6:18 8:23 9:14 10:14,16,18 15:8 ,8 ,12 17:22 ,22 29:8 ,13 38:5 38:15 41:7 45:15 47:2

49:8 ,18 51:15 ,20 53:19 54:12 58:6 62:20 77:22 81:14 83:7 88:14 88:15 95:20 102:10 105:12 136:2 137:11 ,23 149:14 152:23,24 153:5 159:14 161:5 ,16 166:12 167:18 186:22 192:15 196:9 **over-repres ...**  34:24 **overall** 19:13 117:16 145:11 151:5 **overbuilding** 147:18 **overbuilt** 147:12 **overcoming** 40:19 **overestimated** 7:18 156:3 **overestimates** 143:13 **overlap** 37:3 **overlapping** 184:2 **overlaps** 36:18 **overlook** 146:22 154:10 **overview** 70:14 **overwhelm**

## Meeting June 1, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 34 105:2 **overwhelming** 8:18 **overwhelmi ...**  34:10 **own** 10:1 49:21 201:2 **owner** 147:24 **owners** 41:13 51:18 **P P**  1:4,4 2:1 ,1 3:1 **pace** 178:19 **package** 18:8 81:23 87:10 91:15 ,18 ,20 91:21 ,23 93:4,6,15 100:4 157:17 **packaged** 24:10 91:25 97:21 **page** 13:16 49:12 51:1 96:19 134:1 **pages** 48:10 **paint** 98:16 **pairs** 121:3 **parallel** 96:10 136:4 137:17 140:19 **Pardon** 200:14 **paren** 102:5 **parent** 68:1 **parentheses** 100:25 101:3 **paresthetizing** 89:6 **parse** 113:8 181:21 **part** 19:8 44:2 57:2 58:4,11 69:7 74:20

93:12 95:4 96:8 97:8 98:10 102:24 103:5 ,17 104:1 123:3 139:16 179:8 179:8 ,15 ,16 179:21 180:8 180:11 ,17 190:18 192:5 196:8 197:22 200:6 **participate** 4:22 131:4 **participated** 168:8 **participation** 69:9 **particular** 16:19 65:9 112:8 166:9 195:16 **particularly** 56:10,16 100:20 176:10 **parties** 63:18 124:4 138:7 205:8 **parties'** 205:9 **parts** 202:23 **pass** 106:16 114:23 163:8 **past** 6:6 51:24 62:20 67:17 84:16,20 85:20 88:3 138:17 147:20 161:16 189:13,20 **path** 100:11 193:12 ,13 **paths** 193:4

**pathway** 68:10 **pathways** 67:13 108:21 **Paul** 1:11 3:18 59:11 61:3 99:16 170:11 **pause** 9:21 15:11 45:6 **pay** 54:23,24 55:2 **payback** 15:16 43:21 47:20 47:21 ,23 50:14,25 51:2 **paybacks** 43:19 48:14 56:14 **peel** 131:18 **penalty** 103:18 **penetration** 30:4 **people** 34:11 49:2 51:11 51:20 52:11 89:13,17 111:23 131:9 145:9 146:7 157:4 169:20 177:2 191:11 197:6 198:2 198:8 203:22 **per** 19:21 47:7 47:8 ,9 50:3 55:25 56:8 62:7 83:3 84:4,10 99:24 145:15 151:15 165:2 166:12 169:8 177:1 187:1 **per-dollar** 164:5 **per-unit**

163:12 ,20 164:2 **perceive** 141:12 **percent** 7:18 7:22 ,23,24 7:24 8:14,17 9:6,7,13 12:15 13:2 ,5 13:24,25 15:24 16:8 ,8 20:21 ,23,24 22:3,5 23:2 23:12 ,21 ,24 25:1 ,2 26:11 28:15 ,15 ,15 28:19 ,19 ,20 32:15 ,17 34:17 35:4 37:22 ,23,23 39:11 ,17 40:10 42:17 42:18 ,18 ,19 43:7,8 44:7 44:10,12 ,13 44:19 49:9 49:18 51:2 54:14 55:13 60:14 76:18 77:1 ,2 ,4,5 ,6 77:12 128:15 134:8 136:13 144:13,17 145:24,25 146:16,17 150:7,7 153:10,13,14 156:11 ,16 182:5 186:20 186:21 187:2 188:1 **percentage** 12:12 28:2 32:1 34:10

36:8 71:25 76:22 135:20 140:15 160:22 163:5 181:21 183:4 198:1 **percentages** 16:2 132:23 134:7 152:10 196:14 **percents** 44:18 **Perfect** 46:18 **performance** 33:15 65:5 70:18 90:3 112:3 122:7 193:12 **perhaps** 22:14 24:4 53:21 66:22 88:6 97:12 100:25 108:7 116:18 188:24 191:15 **period** 15:16 47:21 136:2 139:16 149:14 150:23,25 151:2 ,4,20 161:5 166:13 186:22 **periods** 47:20 47:23 **permission** 111:11 **permitted** 203:5 **perplexed** 110:12 **personally** 128:14

## Meeting June 1, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 35 31:8 ,24 32:10 114:7 180:11 189:5 **PG&E** 3:24 18:1 54:21 84:1 94:13 **phased-in** 65:6,18 107:6 112:4 112:16 **phone** 34:7 111:21 **phones** 4:22 **phrase** 195:16 **pick** 18:13 23:22 154:11 198:20 **picked** 56:23 75:22 174:10 **picture** 19:5 19:13 145:1 151:10 **piece** 22:17 64:18 82:6 82:14 144:7 **pieces** 167:3 201:4 **piping** 60:1 **place** 166:1 ,6 174:15 178:18 198:12 **places** 156:16 172:8 **placing** 22:17 **plan** 53:11 ,12 54:8 ,8 107:2 **planning** 173:6 **plant** 197:16 197:17 **plants** 151:19 **plate** 99:3,5 ,5 **platform** 167:5 175:8 192:12 **platforms**

166:17 167:24 169:19 **play** 111:8 169:12 185:11 **pleased** 18:11 18:11 ,21 **plenum** 80:5 81:3,5 **plenums** 82:22 **plow** 6:7 15:15 **plus** 22:5 36:12 136:8 170:11 **PNNL** 60:10 **point** 5:4,21 6:12 11:16 18:13 20:12 21:14 26:14 28:5 36:5 40:5 41:20 41:21 ,22 42:4 43:11 43:12 45:7 45:24 49:20 52:16 54:25 56:19 58:16 62:7 63:25 75:23,23 88:24 96:7 97:17 100:3 101:15 104:7 107:18 121:11 124:16 132:9 132:25 142:8 142:20 144:16 146:13 148:19 157:3 163:11 169:1 173:19 174:20

176:14 188:15 190:14 203:20 **pointed** 194:16 201:23 **pointing** 145:10 158:14 **points** 23:9 49:15 50:7 71:1 97:19 100:4 194:18 **policy** 48:6 50:7 133:10 **population** 134:25 **populations** 172:24 **pork** 155:10 **portable** 92:6 95:6 **portion** 5:20 12:24 19:8 29:12 42:11 42:12 140:12 **portrait** 41:17 **posed** 67:11 **positions** 108:24 154:11 **positive** 8:17 8:20 **possibility** 95:7 189:3 **possible** 67:4 104:24 107:11 109:25 154:1 **possibly** 21:10 89:22 110:3 **posted** 43:24 156:9

**potential** 87:11 89:5 95:23,24 108:21 ,24,24 109:6 159:1 170:12 ,15 ,23 193:13 **potentially** 99:13 114:12 115:18 134:19 154:10 156:13 190:7 198:9 202:20 **power** 11:10 37:23 39:21 53:11 ,12 54:8 ,8 56:5 56:13 71:15 115:22 ,24 117:5 ,15 120:8 124:9 **powers** 11:11 125:12 **PPI** 140:23 **practice** 55:7 200:12 ,18 **predict** 65:9 112:7 122:6 **preferred** 193:12 **prepared** 64:2 70:14 71:3 **prescriptive** 90:1 103:8 191:20 192:3 192:11 **prescriptively** 192:16 **prescriptives** 192:22 **present** 11:25 21:3,3 29:15 45:1 64:11

109:6 153:15 157:2 159:10 164:15 177:1 199:5 **presentation** 5:12 62:24 177:1 ,11 **presentations** 159:11 **presented** 17:12 42:21 46:23 65:3 65:23 68:1 78:18 112:1 112:21 146:4 168:3 203:15 **presenting** 18:5 70:12 70:23 158:24 **Presently** 99:11 **preservation** 162:18 163:2 163:2 ,3,25 164:1 **preserve** 185:19 **pressure** 11:9 12:22 19:23 41:3,11 59:13,19 60:16,18 ,21 60:24 89:21 90:7,8 94:9 95:1 ,18 ,19 96:3 97:2 101:16 102:17 104:18 105:7 118:12 ,19 ,21 120:2 ,6 122:5 124:7 124:10,14

## Meeting June 1, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 36 125:10,14,16 **pressures** 60:11 **presumably** 31:1 **presume** 108:19 **pretty** 5:21 35:10 48:19 54:15 59:2 86:7 123:8 136:5 138:17 142:4 143:11 152:12 153:5 155:23,23 156:18 ,23 157:1 158:25 172:17 193:19 195:1 195:5 196:15 202:8 ,17,20 204:12 **previous** 13:11 14:3 47:7 72:13 81:8 **previously** 65:13 112:11 202:5 **price** 41:13 137:9 ,11 ,12 137:13,23 140:23 144:4 144:10,25 145:2 ,2 ,5 156:14 186:19 **prices** 140:25 141:21 152:8 152:23 153:6 164:8 **pricing** 164:7 184:3 186:18 **primarily** 161:15 **primary** 10:11

150:10 151:21 **principally** 89:4 **prior** 32:11 39:10 138:16 143:2 **probably** 18:9 21:8 24:17 26:4 34:6 35:20 37:8 39:3 46:1 86:23 96:21 102:15 116:8 128:13,15 129:3,4 134:18 140:15 153:20 172:4 173:8 180:25 189:18 195:8 196:23 202:25 **problem** 54:22 160:19 190:3 **problematic** 6:10 56:17 **problems** 189:13 **procedurally** 64:12 69:25 109:23 **procedure** 56:2 ,6,8 ,20 57:25 58:1 ,4 58:11 ,25 59:2 ,9 ,12 ,22 60:6,23 61:6 61:12 62:8 62:10 83:12 99:24 102:20 **procedures** 97:12 103:4 **proceedings**

205:5 **process** 48:20 67:21 ,23,25 68:8 ,22 ,25 96:8 113:13 121:17 126:8 132:1 153:21 153:25 165:20 166:10,24 189:22 190:15 ,18 ,19 191:18 ,24 192:11 194:11 ,12 195:8 ,8 200:14 202:8 **processes** 189:19 **processing** 134:14 **produce** 94:21 **Producer** 140:23 **product** 9:4 10:1 32:4 33:21 36:18 37:3 61:10 61:13 79:22 81:6 82:17 83:12 87:9 89:2 91:22 92:5 ,9 ,9 ,10 92:15 95:4 96:9 99:5 105:1 135:2 135:3,8 ,21 144:14 145:4 145:13,23 150:13,15 154:21 164:10 165:21 166:2 166:3,8 ,9 ,17

167:6 168:9 168:13 169:15 ,17 173:22 174:25 175:4 175:4,7,10 175:12 ,15 ,20 175:21 180:19 182:2 183:19 ,20,21 183:22 186:8 190:16 191:10,11 ,22 195:6,10,11 195:15 ,17,18 195:19 197:7 197:17 **production** 159:18 160:11 162:5 174:19 197:7 **productive** 64:20 **products** 34:13 52:23 71:8 ,9 77:14 78:4 82:23 82:25 85:1 ,5 91:8 115:5 132:16 146:5 164:17 165:16,18 169:1 ,3 172:6 175:18 176:10 179:17 183:15 188:7 190:15 191:13 201:20 **profile** 54:20 71:13 115:14 116:13,24 **profit** 163:3,12

163:16,20 164:1 ,2 183:16 185:19 **program** 51:12 51:21 **programs** 171:5 **prohibited** 203:5 **Project** 3:14 **projected** 143:6,11 152:20 **projection** 28:25 134:16 140:13,14 **projections** 135:4,5 138:19 **promised** 71:6 **prompted** 87:1 **properly** 25:3 131:23 132:4 **proportion** 42:7 **proportional** 145:5 **proposal** 107:11 ,24 108:15 109:6 110:5 181:16 194:4,10 203:15 ,19 **proposals** 90:6 108:17 **proposed** 108:20 176:4 181:14 **proprietary** 18:2 ,19 **protected** 18:2 18:3

## Meeting June 1, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 37 **proud** 182:9 182:13 **provide** 6:4 71:12 115:13 115:19 116:6 118:4,7 129:15 ,16 132:11 134:4 187:8 ,10 189:1 195:14 199:3 **provided** 26:14 30:12 49:14 62:5 63:17 64:4 87:2 115:16 116:12 132:17 168:21 ,22 ,25 169:4 199:12 199:18 ,19 **provides** 135:8 192:12 **providing** 129:5 **provisions** 100:12 ,15 **public** 43:16 48:10 49:22 55:18 119:9 130:5 164:17 203:10 **pulling** 37:6 188:25 **pump** 71:8 81:22 92:1 100:23 156:19 198:19 **pumps** 115:6 121:2 127:3 127:14 140:24 **purchase** 156:14

**purchasers** 150:3 **purchasing** 51:18 **purported** 47:22 **purpose** 68:9 158:25 **purposes** 128:4 134:5 159:5 **pursuant** 65:15 ,25 112:12 ,23 **push** 171:4 **put** 23:1 40:2 48:10,15 61:6 68:12 79:22 88:14 89:14 90:16 94:1 95:10 97:19 99:3,4 102:16 106:18 107:11 ,25 108:17 109:8 109:19 117:4 117:13 119:17 124:13,23 127:5 128:3 152:5 185:4 198:9 ,10 201:2 203:15 **puts** 97:22 **putting** 107:20 118:18 142:18 170:3 **Q quadruple**  168:5 **quads** 9:3,18 133:5 ,5 ,6,7

151:18 **quaff** 7:8 ,10 203:24 **qualified** 99:3 **qualify** 99:2 **qualifying** 98:14 **quality** 141:13 **quantify** 193:3 **quarter** 46:2 64:13 **question** 9:24 18:17 24:6 35:8 ,12 42:5 44:1 ,22 51:5 56:11 62:2 63:22 67:20 78:9 82:16 93:3 95:12 100:2 102:14 103:7 111:6 115:18 116:11 117:1 117:8 118:3 121:8 ,21 129:6 131:17 132:6 135:23 136:18 141:11 145:21 157:15 162:8 162:10 171:2 171:7,12 173:10 177:4 178:3,17 179:24 180:1 180:4 181:3 187:13 191:20 192:1 192:7 199:11 200:9 ,10 201:15 202:10 **questions** 5:5

5:15 9:22 10:8 15:13 45:8 46:14 46:22 ,23 47:2 62:4 64:11 ,19 65:21 67:11 78:22 106:14 107:13 111:25 112:19 157:6 158:21 168:22 **queue** 64:24 **quick** 115:1 154:19 157:15 198:22 **quick-serve** 147:25 **quicker** 46:4,5 **quickly** 5:21 108:11 113:8 **quite** 26:7 52:1 77:6,22 85:16 109:13 109:20 141:14 196:12 ,17 **quorum** 3:5 **R R**  1:4 2:1 3:1 **R&D** 160:22 165:21 **rain** 98:14,15 **raise** 6:20 19:23 144:4 164:7 **raised** 5:5 52:15 62:4 62:21 ,22 65:2 111:25 179:15

**raises** 11:8 **raising** 62:23 114:4 **Ramirez** 1:21 3:12 ,12 50:20 62:2 62:11 64:7 64:12 ,24 66:1 ,3,5 ,14 69:24 70:4,9 79:6 105:14 105:25 106:3 106:8 109:23 113:1 ,5 ,20 116:7 123:23 124:1 ,11 126:11 144:18 157:8 164:12 202:3 203:8 204:2 204:8 **ramps** 13:4 **ran** 100:24 **range** 9:16,17 47:8 ,9 71:25 76:20 83:2 118:23 124:14 128:15 176:18 **ranges** 90:12 94:9 129:8 **Ransom** 2:10 4:16 **ratcheted** 167:25 **rate** 48:17 103:11 ,13 144:12 156:11 ,22 157:16 161:2 **rated** 99:9 103:10,10,13

## Meeting June 1, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 38 103:22 104:8 104:13,19 **rates** 146:21 146:23,24 147:15 150:6 152:9 153:12 **rather** 31:4 105:19 **rating** 99:3,4,5 103:18 104:7 104:24 **ratings** 115:7 120:24 121:23,24,24 121:25 122:3 122:8 **raw** 29:1 **Ray** 2:21 4:19 **re-rating** 165:18 **react** 65:3 112:1 **reaction** 203:25 **read** 91:24 92:9 110:18 110:19 111:3 111:5 ,13 202:19 **readily** 147:2 **reading** 46:24 68:19 142:4 **readout** 181:22 **ready** 119:20 172:2 ,14,21 182:20 **real** 20:6 59:3 59:6 122:7 133:10 154:8 180:9 189:19 **realistic** 52:4 126:20 163:22 **reality** 26:1

57:23 169:1 **realize** 58:19 **realized** 91:8 **realizing** 41:14 **really** 8:7 12:9 20:3,4,8 24:15 ,17 25:6,7,8 26:3 26:5 29:11 35:5 36:20 37:2 39:3 44:4,20 55:9 55:14 59:9 60:16,18 66:21 86:13 91:9 94:24 95:18 98:1 107:13,21 ,25 108:10 109:10 110:12 111:2 111:12 ,15 116:1 126:7 126:15 130:23 145:7 154:7 159:5 164:8 165:15 165:17,25 166:7 168:1 168:1 172:6 177:20 179:24 180:1 180:4,7 189:23 191:13 201:8 **reason** 13:7 20:25 31:21 51:12 54:25 69:9 77:12 84:24 96:8 101:13 127:4 165:7 181:14 181:15 **reasons**

200:21 **recalculate** 125:12 **recall** 11:18 20:13 35:19 74:13 145:14 **recalling** 13:1 13:2 28:18 **recap** 198:22 **receive** 16:11 **received** 6:5 126:6 127:22 131:21 159:6 165:17 **receives** 129:20 **receiving** 125:10 **recent** 138:17 152:19 **recess** 46:19 106:10 158:20 **recession** 143:25 146:14 147:8 **recessions** 147:13 **recharacterize** 185:23 **recognize** 197:10 198:14 **recollection** 58:5 75:7,8 **recommend ...**  65:3,8 ,10,12 65:20,22 67:17 112:1 112:6,8 ,10 112:18 ,20 180:12 ,15 **reconcile** 20:18 23:15

98:9 **record** 111:5 119:9 124:2 130:5 138:14 182:7,9 200:1 205:6 **recorded** 111:7 **recording** 198:20 **recovered** 142:16,16 **recovery** 142:10 146:15 **recraft** 102:10 **red** 73:17 126:10 127:2 127:20,21 128:1 133:23 143:20 **redesign** 165:16 166:1 166:3,5 169:3,15 ,16 169:17,23 170:8 ,18 174:8 ,18 184:18 ,20 195:17,20 **redesigning** 166:7 168:12 169:15 200:23 **redo** 118:16 **reduce** 28:9 40:4 163:11 179:18 **reduces** 8:9 40:3 **reducing** 38:24,25 **reduction** 137:14

**reductions** 135:20 **reengineer** 85:2 **referencing** 47:19 **referred** 192:9 **referring** 57:4 **refine** 82:15 **reflect** 28:16 59:9 97:13 121:24 152:19 167:11 **reflected** 11:23 144:17 192:13 **reflection** 60:16 161:15 **reflective** 44:11 59:5 196:12 **reflects** 59:3 100:3 **refrigerant** 170:12 180:22 182:15 **refrigeration** 57:5 184:19 184:20,25 **refringent** 60:1 **regarding** 71:7 71:17 72:4 90:14 134:15 201:16 **regardless** 162:11 **region** 152:8 202:7 **regulated** 181:23 **regulating**

## Meeting June 1, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 39 65:14 112:12 **regulation** 170:17 189:6 **regulations** 65:4 112:2 171:16 **regulatory** 176:22 177:6 179:18 ,25 181:15 182:8 182:18 184:5 **reinvestment** 170:2 ,24 **reiterating** 156:6 **rejected** 12:17 **related** 116:25 117:2 136:12 145:2 167:5 **relates** 190:15 **relationship** 121:15 **relative** 14:2 38:12 39:23 43:9 44:24 127:6 136:13 147:12 148:17,19 156:22 194:10 205:7 205:9 **relatively** 29:13 38:25 39:1 88:3 144:14 147:14 **release** 116:15 119:1 ,4,15 122:22 123:16,22 **releasing** 116:17 118:24 **relevant** 153:20

**reliably** 145:12 **relook** 167:15 **reluctant** 116:15 **relying** 133:20 **remain** 137:17 **remainder** 203:18 **remaining** 114:9 141:10 **remains** 129:21 132:2 137:12 **remember** 8:4 12:9 ,15 33:9 44:2 76:25 85:4 134:10 **remind** 29:25 52:11 **reminder** 23:6 44:16 **reminds** 184:14 **remove** 204:10 **repair** 145:19 145:24 151:5 151:6,24 152:11 **repair/replace** 135:16 **repairs** 140:3 152:15 ,16 **repeat** 15:1 116:8 142:23 161:20 **repeated** 7:20 **replace** 24:24 25:7,9 87:12 151:6 **replacement** 135:12 ,15 136:21 144:13 147:2 **replacing** 14:5

52:24 **report** 48:1 94:22 130:5 130:17 151:16 **reported** 15:25 130:19 131:24 168:14,16 **reporter** 66:24 205:1 ,4 **reporter's** 106:22 **reporting** 129:13 132:6 200:13 **represent** 60:19 127:25 128:1 ,3,22 160:3 **representati ...**  72:7 **representative** 48:19 ,25 49:17 60:5 ,6 61:2 ,4 125:16 126:21 **represented** 20:15 40:9 72:5 76:7,8 76:10,17 **representing** 21:7 39:17 123:3 **represents** 30:2 60:18 127:14 137:21 **reproduced** 135:17 **request** 71:11 **requested** 115:13

117:25 135:7 152:16 **require** 72:17 73:6,25 74:5 76:1 77:18 172:23 **required** 27:24 27:24 72:12 76:22 99:25 163:15 192:15 ,19 ,20 195:3 **requirement** 83:11 89:21 90:1 95:25 96:3 103:9 153:14 **requirements** 82:1 91:9 93:17 99:2 192:13 **requires** 201:18 **requiring** 178:20 **reread** 110:24 **rerun** 134:23 167:10 **research** 90:11 **residential** 65:16 96:10 112:14 176:3 181:6,8 182:14 202:5 **residual** 151:1 **resolve** 116:19 197:12 **respond** 65:9 66:10 112:7 **responding** 141:24 **response** 63:15 69:19 107:12 145:1

**responses** 168:9 **responsibility** 193:19 **responsive** 116:4 **rest** 69:18 116:19 124:9 124:23 153:7 170:5 172:19 **restart** 158:19 **restaurants** 147:25 **result** 7:21 23:18 58:23 162:1 163:14 182:21 ,22 **resulting** 33:14 42:2 **results** 8:11 ,12 8:12 11:2 12:1 21:13 38:6 39:10 43:3 45:8 63:24 69:23 121:19 134:24 135:2 140:1 150:11 152:4 154:3 156:4 158:24 159:8 162:1 162:4 182:20 **retail** 37:8 ,13 **retailers** 61:15 **retain** 97:9 140:3 **retraction** 55:15 ,16,19 62:25 **retrofit** 88:18 **retrofits** 88:1 146:20 **return** 61:5 ,11

## Meeting June 1, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 40 **returns** 10:20 61:19 **revenue** 160:11 ,22 ,22 163:7 183:16 **reversed** 7:25 8:1 **review** 74:11 106:24 112:25 115:7 115:10 121:9 121:23 **reviewed** 199:7 **reviewing** 203:19 **revise** 167:13 **revised** 6:4 43:22 78:13 137:1 170:23 **revisions** 43:2 167:11 **Rheem** 62:6 66:6 106:17 132:12 148:24 **right** 3:6 5:1 7:6 10:3,16 11:19 13:10 14:16,21 18:3 19:18 22:23 24:6 25:5 26:14 27:2 ,14,21 27:21 30:12 31:2 32:2 ,7 33:11 34:10 34:19 ,25 ,25 35:17 36:13 38:15 40:16 40:21 42:16 42:17 44:19 49:20 50:13 51:6,17 52:20 54:7

54:12 57:20 58:12 61:24 62:2 64:15 66:3 68:12 68:17 69:13 69:13,24 72:24 73:11 73:18 75:23 78:16 79:11 82:1 ,19 86:25 88:7 88:24 89:11 89:16,18 90:9 91:13 93:2 ,2 95:21 96:5 98:11 98:12 100:5 101:6 103:23 103:23 104:3 104:13 105:15 ,25 106:8 110:14 110:15 113:6 113:13,20,24 114:2 116:19 117:10,15 ,23 117:24 118:21 ,23 121:15 ,19 ,23 121:25 122:3 122:14 123:5 124:15 ,19 ,20 124:20 125:1 125:3,24 127:8 128:12 130:18 ,25 131:7,8 132:8 ,25 133:2 134:9 134:10 137:8 137:10 138:25 139:12 143:15 146:1

146:23 147:14 154:11 158:1 158:1 ,2 ,8 ,11 158:12 ,18 162:16,18 166:3 168:3 169:21 170:25 171:10,13,16 171:25 172:2 173:11 ,15 174:2 ,22 ,22 175:1 ,2 ,6,8 178:12 179:7 179:12 180:18 183:11 ,13,19 184:2 ,7,15 185:9 ,24 186:6,17,20 186:25 187:15 190:12 ,14 191:8 193:5 193:12 ,21 195:23 196:14,14,25 196:25 197:7 197:22 200:2 200:3 202:20 203:8 ,12 ,21 204:8 ,10,16 204:17 **right-hand** 78:11 81:12 **rise** 146:19 **rolled** 165:22 **roof** 41:6 88:22 ,23,25 89:14 **rooftop** 24:9 30:24 34:17 47:20 59:17

88:25 100:7 100:14 145:15 ,16 **rooftop-chal ...**  43:20 **rooftops** 89:18 **room** 3:9 9:24 81:18 90:20 93:19 ,20,21 97:15 106:12 113:22 ,23 176:12 189:12 203:13 204:14 **Rosenquist** 1:22 4:9 ,9 6:21 7:5 ,13 10:7 12:10 12:13,25 13:11 ,20 14:11 ,24 17:7 18:4,8 19:16,20 20:10 21:18 21:21 ,25 22:11 ,23 23:5 24:2 25:11 26:13 26:19 ,21 ,23 27:1 ,3,19 ,22 28:14 29:2 30:11 ,16 31:19 ,23 32:9 ,17,20 32:23 33:3,9 34:5 ,14 35:19 ,21 36:1 38:4 40:16,21 41:19 42:9 42:16,20,25 44:8 ,21 45:4 45:19 ,25

46:5 ,9 127:1 127:18 128:6 156:6 **rough** 128:23 140:16 **roughly** 15:21 16:1 ,2 23:7 39:9 42:22 74:4 76:25 77:5 146:16 165:2 166:12 **round** 15:17 **row** 14:22 **rows** 86:19 **RTU** 87:13 **RTUs** 53:13 89:6 146:15 **rule** 56:21 ,25 57:8 58:25 65:15 ,24 67:14 68:15 68:22 69:2 ,3 69:5 112:13 112:22 128:9 151:3 159:24 164:9 176:9 183:12 184:6 184:11 191:19 193:24 201:25 **rule-by-rule** 194:17 **ruled** 129:21 **rulemakings** 164:6 170:6 **rules** 57:10 123:13 150:22 183:12 ,15 184:7,15 194:15 **run** 104:12

## Meeting June 1, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 41 149:20 188:11 198:7 **running** 108:10 140:19 **Rusty** 2:2 3:20 47:4 50:10 62:21 114:15 122:19 ,21 ,24 168:7 188:3 **Rusty's** 123:10 123:12 **S S**  1:4 2:1 ,25 3:1 205:3,17 **Sachs** 1:23 3:22 ,22 21:15 ,19 45:17,22 46:24 57:3 74:12 ,16 82:7,9 ,9 ,15 82:20 87:7 87:15 ,20 89:1 ,23 92:3 92:13 93:7 94:24 95:8 95:17,22 96:7 100:17 101:8 ,25 102:11 103:7 103:15 ,20,23 104:1 ,22 106:6 111:15 113:7,14,17 120:20 121:7 134:2 140:17 141:3,8 ,10 143:16,18 ,22 146:2 ,12 ,23 160:16,18 182:6 183:6 191:16 192:7 192:19 ,21

193:6 200:9 203:3 **sales** 87:23 88:3 89:6 146:15 147:3 **salt** 98:15 **same** 8:15 ,21 9:2 21:9 35:1 37:1 41:8 ,10 50:17,18 58:23 68:25 70:24 72:3 72:13 74:3 75:13 82:4 82:18 ,19 87:5 94:12 100:16,24 119:5 126:22 135:18 139:1 140:3 153:24 156:23 157:25 162:11 ,13 163:5 ,12 ,18 163:20 169:25 173:2 175:9 ,12 180:19 183:9 183:20,21 ,22 183:23,24 187:1 194:7 198:4 **Sami** 2:7 4:3 173:14,18 190:20 **sample** 23:20 **sanity-chec ...**  187:19 **sat** 155:24 **sauce** 155:10 **SAV** 25:23 28:8 **save** 38:1 **saved** 182:1

**saving** 51:4 **savings** 8:10 8:17,19 ,25 9:1 ,2 ,7,10,19 19:6,8 ,9 29:15 34:20 39:5 40:6 41:21 ,22 42:4 43:7,8 43:12 55:24 56:1 ,19 ,23 57:14 87:8 133:1 140:11 149:13,19 150:10,16,19 150:20,24 151:4 153:1 154:23 155:14,18 156:11 ,14,25 191:1 ,21 192:4 **saw** 7:25 8:15 8:21 9:3 14:2 25:5 38:16 38:21 43:10 44:25 75:22 81:8 90:5 ,6 93:18 101:18 101:20 109:12 145:22 147:13 **say** 6:5 ,17 9:13 12:20 13:8 17:22 21:22 22:2 24:2 ,8 ,19 27:8 31:12 32:4 34:15 40:7 43:1 ,4,5 45:10,13 46:17 48:22 53:5 ,22

60:14 64:14 67:9 ,10 69:12 70:5 73:13 77:18 84:23 85:19 98:7,8 99:6 100:21 ,25 102:22 107:7 107:7 113:8 117:18 120:9 127:2 128:11 137:2 147:24 154:20 157:20 158:11 166:23 168:19 169:14 171:17 173:20 175:10,20 185:19 186:2 186:3 187:23 189:18 190:4 190:8 194:24 197:5 203:4 **saying** 17:21 18:20 23:1 31:17 37:9 47:16 48:4 50:5 ,16 60:4 61:1 ,6 68:18 68:19 70:6 73:18 100:10 119:14 130:2 134:3 136:7 139:11 144:8 151:10 162:10 163:4 167:23 169:7 169:14 172:5 174:9 185:20 186:17 203:6 **says** 24:10

95:3,10 133:5 136:18 194:5 ,5 **scale** 47:16 48:5 50:3,3 50:14 73:3 126:19 160:3 160:12 167:10 172:21 **scaled** 133:12 133:13 **scales** 186:10 **scaling** 30:1 49:25 129:3 133:1 174:19 **scenario** 125:14 163:4 163:10 182:23,23 **scenarios** 161:14,18 ,23 162:3,12 ,16 163:1 ,24 182:21 **schedule** 6:2 **scheduled** 109:25 **schools** 88:15 88:17 **screams** 39:3 **screen** 137:24 **screwed** 172:25 **se** 136:19 145:15 177:1 **SEC** 159:21 161:3 164:16 **second** 67:6 126:11 160:8 183:2 **Secretary** 178:5

## Meeting June 1, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 42 **section** 80:14 81:10,11 82:2 ,3 100:11 ,19 ,22 135:19 152:13 158:22 194:20 **sections** 82:17 **sector** 153:10 **security** 170:9 170:10 **see** 5:17 6:3 7:23,23 8:8 9:21 11:21 11:23,24 12:7 13:21 14:1 ,15 ,18 17:18 20:8 21:13 22:19 25:4 27:13 27:16,17 29:14 33:11 42:16 45:5 48:13 52:3 55:13 56:15 66:12 67:13 69:7 73:2 ,2 73:16,20 81:10 90:2 90:11 100:5 104:15 ,16 105:5 ,7 106:4 107:1 109:23 110:14 111:18 115:22 117:14,17 121:15 ,19 122:6 124:2 125:7 128:17 129:23,24 130:1 ,3 135:13

138:15 139:15 140:1 141:7,9 ,25 142:11 ,12 ,17 147:19 155:16 156:15 157:6 157:18 ,19 158:14 170:18 176:13,14 177:10 182:24,24 190:3 194:11 200:15 ,17 204:17 **seeing** 9:14 11:11 15:2 36:11 51:9 51:15 54:11 138:21 ,22 ,22 138:23 143:4 143:6 189:13 **seen** 11:1 ,12 39:24 45:13 49:21 71:12 **SEER** 65:17 112:15 **sees** 186:21 **selected** 58:21 73:11 168:24 **selections** 76:21 **sell** 92:8 164:10 175:10,13 **sellers** 88:4 **selling** 51:7,8 **send** 71:7 119:20 124:13 **sending** 119:21 **sends** 106:21

**sense** 19:12 41:10,24 84:9 145:6 164:8 **sensitive** 51:13,14 153:1 **sensitivity** 25:12 139:23 152:22 153:4 **sent** 71:9 115:7 120:23 131:25 **sentences** 110:20 **separate** 92:14 93:21 96:9 184:3,3 195:20 **separated** 93:15 **series** 140:23 **serious** 190:14 **seriously** 111:16 **serrated** 92:19 **service** 53:15 204:13 **session** 92:4 **set** 7:14 23:5 ,8 39:10,25 41:20 59:12 61:23 124:18 154:17 155:4 175:17 190:6 **sets** 5:4 27:17 30:21 121:3 **setting** 123:19 **settled** 101:18 **seven** 72:19 119:12 128:22 ,25 129:2 ,8 131:14,14,16

131:21 136:9 168:5 178:4 178:6 **seven-and-a ...**  11:4,15 12:2 15:25 16:6 20:22 23:12 23:21 28:16 30:18 35:23 37:15 38:9 42:11 45:11 49:17 55:12 56:11 ,16 58:15 71:16 115:17 116:14 117:25 118:3 118:6 119:7 119:11 ,17 123:18 126:3 126:23,24 199:2 ,14 **seven-and-a ...**  199:22 **seven-minute** 113:16 **seventh** 53:12 **several** 62:20 63:6 161:16 187:21 **severely** 168:6 **SG&A** 160:21 **shall** 111:13 **Shannon** 200:19 **share** 7:22 9:6 9:13 16:12 16:13 20:10 20:19 21:6 26:12 27:10 29:22 51:19 54:15 128:24 129:13 130:6 130:7 149:2

165:8 191:6 191:6 **shares** 26:18 30:15 132:23 **sharp** 137:10 **sheets** 131:23 **Shepherd** 2:25 205:3,17 **shift** 28:7 53:8 77:24 141:11 **shifted** 7:22 9:5 **shifts** 201:8 **ship** 54:1 150:14 **shipment** 18:2 18:18 94:14 107:22 109:11 148:23 159:7 162:5 186:17 199:20 **shipment-w ...**  199:15 ,20 **shipments** 6:5 6:5 ,12 16:12 16:14,20 23:10,13,23 23:24 29:4 29:12 30:25 34:19 ,24 36:13,13 62:22 ,25 63:1 64:3 71:24,25 72:4 76:9 ,19 113:9 114:25 126:6,9 ,14 126:21 ,24 127:22 134:16,18 ,23 135:4,5 ,6,9 135:11 ,12 ,14

## Meeting June 1, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 43 135:21 ,24 136:2 ,20,21 136:22 137:1 139:12 140:16 142:14,18 ,25 143:4,13 149:7,17,21 150:1 ,13 151:9 ,11 155:25 159:6 159:17,17 160:10,12 161:11 162:10,11 ,21 167:11 182:5 186:11 **shipped** 81:25 82:11 151:3 **shipping** 78:1 **ships** 150:25 **short** 8:9 188:17,23 **Shorthand** 205:3 **shortly** 64:23 **should** 5:10 7:20 8:7 14:12 22:14 28:3 30:17 30:19 35:12 35:17,20 36:1 ,2 43:5 48:4 54:8 67:11 69:16 121:19 123:21 124:15 149:10 178:1 180:3 187:17 193:24 202:11 **shouldn't** 77:18 **show** 18:22 ,25

25:23 26:17 29:24 60:4 72:15 125:15 126:9 138:17 150:9 188:19 201:4 **showed** 22:14 25:22 43:19 43:21 70:22 134:7 188:8 201:12 ,13 **showing** 28:10 51:3 72:21 77:23 79:24 142:25 144:21 **shown** 130:12 138:6 147:3 190:22 **shows** 2:19 4:19 8:25 33:24 34:5 59:4 71:24 72:2 ,24 78:6 81:12 94:3,5 135:6 145:8 183:2 186:24 201:3 **shrimp** 155:10 **shut** 148:4,5 ,5 **side** 3:8 12:16 30:7 80:11 80:12 ,12 ,17 81:13 89:4 89:22 92:16 93:9 95:16 97:3 109:13 119:25 120:7 120:17 150:21 182:14 188:4 188:12 195:6 195:12 200:11

**sign** 18:4 147:11 **significant** 53:8 82:16 93:9 95:4 147:19 152:14 178:21 **significantly** 28:3 44:24 45:13 56:13 175:18 189:24 190:17 **similar** 10:5 65:13 68:22 81:8 91:9 ,9 112:11 118:8 202:1 ,2 ,9 **similar-type** 183:13 **simple** 48:13 59:23 60:6 **simplifies** 78:1 **simultaneous** 70:8 122:18 157:11 196:7 **since** 25:16 38:18 39:24 58:11 78:25 81:2 87:3 108:10 115:12 126:5 159:9 ,11 161:8 196:16 200:12 201:20 **singed** 7:3 **single** 81:23 82:6,14 91:14,18 ,19 91:21 ,23 93:4,6,15 100:4 167:5

201:19 **single-stage** 39:13 **sister's** 123:11 **sit** 170:8 **site** 151:17 **site-to-source** 151:17 **sits** 68:4 **sitting** 155:20 196:24 **situation** 48:11 57:22 103:1 144:15 166:6 202:9 **situations** 143:5 202:24 **six** 42:17 62:16 72:19 **sixth** 53:11 54:8 **size** 12:22 72:17 73:2 ,6 73:23,25 74:5 ,9 77:8 77:16,20,21 78:3 84:5 129:7 192:15 192:18 **sizes** 84:15 **skew** 122:2 **skewing** 36:20 37:6 **skip** 5:23 10:16 126:6 **skipped** 132:3 **sleep** 113:17 **slide** 8:25 11:11 23:9 49:12 70:16 79:24 81:24 89:8 90:21 94:25 96:14 114:24

126:12 ,13 135:19 136:18 ,25 140:22 149:11 151:22 157:22 186:24 190:22 **slides** 5:18 12:6 13:17 13:18 22:14 26:8 46:25 47:6 72:19 73:9 78:11 79:4 126:9 134:14 149:11 158:25 160:6 **slight** 137:13 152:24 **slightly** 40:18 77:10 78:6 137:22 140:17 **slow** 146:14 **slowly** 110:18 110:25 111:3 111:16 **SMACNA** 47:6 47:10 52:2 **small** 12:23 22:2 34:9 42:7,13 70:23 71:22 72:8 77:11 78:17 83:20 92:6,18 ,18 94:17 137:18 156:17,19 157:17 158:5 166:14 **small-diame ...** 

## Meeting June 1, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 44 96:10 **smaller** 49:8 95:5 147:3 149:1 **smart** 111:20 111:23 **Smartphone** 111:19 **smartphones** 111:22 **smell** 51:6 **smooth** 139:14 **SN** 136:19 **SNOPR** 69:3 **sold** 160:17 182:2 **solid** 128:12 128:19 **some** 5:5 ,6,13 5:23,24 10:5 13:19 ,19 20:12 31:21 33:1 35:25 36:5 ,7 37:8 41:24 43:17 52:2 ,10,10 60:13 63:23 70:17,18 71:2 ,3,14 74:8 ,18 76:12 77:13 78:3 80:19 83:3 85:3,4,4 85:7 86:16 86:23 87:1 88:11 89:20 90:6,8 ,11 ,13 91:7 92:19 93:17,18 94:3,4 96:6 97:19 101:23 102:6 105:21 107:12 ,16 108:17,18 ,19

108:20,23 109:13 114:16,16 115:7,7 116:8 ,9 117:17,22 121:10 122:4 124:17,21 128:13 129:3 129:14 131:4 133:14 134:20 135:14 137:18 140:4 140:21 141:21 146:6 149:6,18 ,25 156:2 157:4 159:14,22 160:4,21 164:22 165:4 167:25 169:20 170:8 172:3 173:10 173:20,21 174:23,23,24 176:14 179:9 180:7 182:5 188:25 189:1 189:13 190:16 191:9 193:1 ,3 194:23 195:20,20 198:8 ,9 199:3,3,7 202:17 203:14 204:14,14 **somebody** 95:9 102:10 130:9 136:8 147:1 **someone**

31:16 86:5 198:21 **Someone's** 102:21 **something** 21:5 24:13 24:17,20 25:9 26:9 29:17 35:10 37:24 40:25 44:3 48:6 50:20 51:5 52:18 69:10 69:12 73:3 74:10 78:25 86:3 88:21 89:5 90:2 92:20 99:8 100:19 101:2 102:19 108:7 108:11 109:19 ,20 110:3 116:3 116:5 ,18 137:23 144:4 148:7 153:19 166:16 169:22 180:21 181:1 185:23 188:18 192:18 194:11 196:20,20 **sometime** 180:22 **sometimes** 55:8 88:15 88:19 98:20 **somewhat** 56:1 81:3,6 156:3 174:22 186:16 189:23

197:21 **somewhere** 32:15 33:8 **soon** 67:4 174:1 **sorry** 14:9 18:16 27:19 33:24 34:1 ,4 34:8 45:1 64:13 96:16 103:15 105:17,17 126:11 136:25 154:25 155:1 157:24 161:19 164:12 180:23 183:6 183:8 **sort** 9:16 16:3 16:22 31:9 37:9 62:13 62:14,14 67:19 84:11 87:15 126:22 133:25 137:21 139:14 142:12 ,17 144:24 150:2 151:1 153:9 153:15 155:3 162:18 178:3 186:12 187:14 189:1 198:9 **sound** 102:1 111:12 **sounded** 79:10 **sounds** 34:6 54:17 122:9 188:18

**source** 151:18 **southeast** 54:19 **southwest** 202:7 **SP** 89:25 **space** 37:14 85:4 86:19 86:24 88:7,8 139:1 ,13 147:4,10 148:9 **space-** 82:21 **space-const ...**  81:3,6,15 **span** 118:21 **speak** 29:18 84:13,13 172:13 186:1 **SPEAKER** 4:15 13:18 37:16 38:2 45:3,18 ,20 46:4 50:8 54:10 70:3 74:21 79:12 79:15 ,18 80:8 92:25 110:21 111:7 111:20 114:1 119:9 122:17 123:12 133:7 134:6 148:22 164:14 185:8 197:13 200:15 **speaking** 57:7 70:8 103:12 122:18 157:11 196:7 **speaks** 184:4 **spec** 147:10 147:10

## Meeting June 1, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 45 **specific** 63:4 93:17 98:1 99:1 160:22 167:3,4,9 168:17 186:1 195:22 **specifically** 11:13 47:6 51:1 74:15 93:24 160:21 168:23 177:7 179:9 202:11 **specifications** 98:11 **specified** 16:14 24:8 **spectrum** 59:20 **speed** 121:16 **spend** 198:2 **spent** 25:16 52:9 74:8 **split** 26:24 30:15 35:25 53:13 54:22 76:9 81:24 82:1 ,4,13 93:24 100:4 100:20 **splits** 82:6 **splittable** 91:14,15 ,17 91:21 **spokespeople** 62:17 **spot** 178:17 203:6 **spray** 98:15 **spreadsheet** 119:20 122:11 140:5 **spreadsheets** 5:6 115:14 116:13 120:23

155:22 **SPVU** 92:5 ,14 92:21 **SPVUs** 95:5 **square** 73:3 138:18 **SR** 136:19 **stable** 142:4,6 **staff** 34:6 **stage** 13:14 37:16,17 153:23 **staged** 16:15 16:21 22:6 22:20 23:10 23:13,25 24:16,20,21 24:22 ,25 25:9 27:24 28:2 ,12 ,23 35:13,16 36:5 37:17 37:18 ,25 39:14 57:16 57:20,21 58:2 ,3 **stages** 192:17 **stand** 103:11 117:24 **standalone** 8:24 **standard** 3:14 9:1 28:6 59:25 65:5 ,5 65:18 83:16 84:22 ,24,25 85:2 87:10 89:3 94:10 95:11 97:9 99:10,24 112:3,3,17 120:9 ,15 137:10 138:6 139:17

142:13,18 ,25 144:24 145:3 148:14 150:22 ,23 153:8 ,17 158:25 161:6 163:6,13,14 163:15 164:9 165:16,19 ,25 168:12 169:10,11 ,16 169:25 171:24 173:8 173:23 174:25 176:11 183:5 184:6 195:23 195:25 200:12 ,18 **standards** 65:6 84:2 ,18 98:23,24 99:14 107:6 112:4 122:1 138:16 140:14 143:2 147:2 151:12 151:23 171:22 182:15 185:18 189:21 190:10 192:5 201:19 202:6 **standards-c ...**  152:20 **standpoint** 131:20 **Starr** 1:24 3:23 3:23 12:4,11 12:20 13:10 13:16 14:14 14:21 ,23 19:4,4,19 ,25

21:24 22:1 22:22 23:3 24:1 ,13 25:15 26:1 30:6,13 31:15 ,20 32:8 ,14,19 32:22 ,25 35:7,25 36:2 36:4,25 37:7 37:12 ,17,21 38:3 40:13 40:17,22 42:5 ,10,19 42:24 44:1 44:17 53:10 54:1 ,7,11 ,14 58:24,24 60:8 ,21 105:4 119:23 120:10,16,19 136:17,23 171:12 ,25 172:3 173:4 173:17,19 174:5 187:4 187:6 189:4 190:2 191:5 192:2 ,14 199:11 ,21 ,25 200:21 **start** 3:7 6:22 14:15 47:5 55:14 69:10 90:23 106:6 106:9 108:23 109:25 110:4 110:4 113:4 113:20 124:24 125:1 125:2 159:14 176:22 177:6 180:5 185:17 188:25 194:3

**started** 46:21 113:10 115:2 200:13 **starting** 14:18 43:24 70:17 124:16 203:12 ,14 **starts** 17:19 203:21 **Stas** 1:25 4:4,4 64:25 ,25 66:12 68:21 107:4 110:24 111:12 ,24 201:22 ,22 **State** 172:22 172:23 190:25 191:3 **State-by-State** 173:15 **stated** 109:16 181:16,20 185:11 **statement** 49:6 57:1 ,2 66:25 68:14 69:15 109:3 109:14 110:11 ,22 ,25 111:23 132:21 140:18 160:23 201:16,23 **statements** 160:14 **States** 171:23 190:22 **static** 11:9 19:23 29:13 59:13,19 60:11 ,15 ,18 60:21 ,24

## Meeting June 1, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 46 61:12 80:19 80:21 ,24 81:1 83:10 83:18 89:21 90:7,8 92:16 93:1 94:8 ,11 95:1 ,18 ,19 96:3 97:2 101:16 102:17 103:25 104:13,18 105:6 **statics** 90:13 **stating** 34:2 **statute** 158:10 178:5 ,5 193:25 194:5 194:12 **statute's** 193:19 **statutory** 181:17 **stay** 41:10 50:16,18 156:23 **stays** 136:4 **steal** 6:9 12:25 **steam** 33:22 34:12 35:6,7 **step** 102:19 137:9 **step-up** 175:18 **stepping** 189:11 **steps** 150:8 **Steven** 2:22 4:19 **stick** 7:5 24:16 185:15 **still** 8:23 9:16 11:16 29:13 35:6 37:14 37:19 ,25

40:3 45:3 53:4 54:13 56:5 64:18 93:23 101:6 103:11 104:17 116:6 116:9 133:2 134:14 151:3 167:12 196:13 197:10 198:12 ,17 **stock** 149:18 149:22 ,23 151:7,10,12 151:14 **stocks** 30:2 **stop** 45:7 105:13 114:5 114:7 **stopped** 84:17 **stops** 146:24 **stores** 59:18 **story** 103:14 179:20 **straight** 43:6 127:14 196:3 **straightforw ...**  110:12 ,14 196:2 **strategies** 141:19 **strategy** 174:11 175:8 176:1 ,5 **strawman** 155:14 **stray** 190:17 **stretch** 5:3 **strictly** 159:6 159:25 187:18 **stringency** 97:7

**stronger** 63:16 **strongly** 76:12 141:12 **struck** 143:12 **structure** 88:22 ,25 166:24 184:3 **structured** 174:15 **struggle** 174:9 177:24 **struggled** 145:21 **struggling** 174:17 192:25 **stuck** 5:8 31:5 **study** 53:13 **stuff** 35:2 45:16 47:2 92:6 116:9 119:16 170:5 176:23 180:8 181:7 201:2 201:8 **sub-bullet** 97:18 **subclass** 150:13 **subclasses** 135:8 **subgroups** 159:2 **subject** 74:10 **submission** 152:19 165:20 **submit** 163:22 **submitted** 26:22 126:18 128:8 129:8 129:10 131:2 200:2 **substantial**

14:16 49:16 53:21 170:7 **substantive** 191:18 **substitute** 145:15 ,23 **substitutes** 146:7 **subtleties** 90:14 **subtlety** 68:13 **subtract** 160:15 ,24,25 198:1 **succeed** 175:22 **successful** 176:1 **such** 5:7 12:23 37:5 97:5 129:13 134:5 163:19 164:6 186:25 **sufficient** 114:12 **suggest** 25:4 45:23 105:5 113:3 134:5 138:15 **suggested** 65:21 96:20 96:23 112:19 196:11 **suggesting** 104:20 109:7 **suggestion** 117:19 123:25 124:1 176:9 **suggestions** 125:10 **suitable** 22:23 **suite** 141:18 **sum** 42:6

136:18 150:4 161:5 **summarize** 115:9 125:5 **summary** 71:10 **summation** 64:15 **summer** 7:8 **supplemented** 49:23 **supplied** 83:4 188:5 **supply** 61:4,10 61:14,18 **support** 52:8 89:25 92:14 93:9 **supporting** 52:2 **suppose** 117:4 **supposed** 10:9 56:7 111:10 128:22 144:20 179:3 192:16 **sure** 21:16,19 26:7 30:7 34:11 53:23 79:3 90:2 105:20,20 106:24 109:9 109:15 ,22 116:10 132:1 140:5 ,8 141:19 175:5 176:24 198:8 198:12 ,24 200:4 202:24 202:25 203:23 204:12

## Meeting June 1, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 47 **surprise** 189:23 **surprised** 35:14 36:23 45:5 128:17 **surprising** 36:7 **survey** 47:8 131:6 **suspect** 55:9 **swing** 147:16 **switch** 36:5 ,8 41:7 145:17 200:25 **switching** 41:15 **sync** 109:15 **synching** 170:5 **Syracuse** 95:2 **system** 12:17 24:16,23,25 25:2 ,7,8 ,8 ,9 35:14 36:11 37:14 **systems** 60:2 **T table**  3:8 26:10 39:4 72:1 ,23 94:1 107:20 108:1 ,18 115:10 116:20 133:16 135:7 151:13 179:14 180:13 182:23 183:2 183:4 196:24 **table's** 154:7 **tables** 3:8 71:13 134:7 **tackling** 90:19 **take** 5:17 6:16

24:15 45:8 45:20 46:13 48:16 59:25 63:23 66:5 67:6 73:10 79:4 80:8 89:14 102:7 105:16 107:19 109:14 117:22 118:8 118:15 126:20 132:1 140:3 147:24 149:16 150:13 153:23 154:20 157:4 157:5 160:9 175:20 186:6 193:1 ,2 203:8 ,18 **taken** 46:19 50:7 56:1 81:17 106:10 120:10 152:11 158:20 **takes** 133:14 142:25 166:1 172:5 **taking** 58:18 117:11 123:13 138:16 140:6 185:10 192:22 193:7 **talk** 6:18 10:20 21:4 63:2 ,12 63:18 66:23 71:16 86:4 86:21 105:22 110:7 144:5 167:2 ,4

**talked** 30:14 137:6,7 139:22 **talking** 6:22 7:2 15:15 ,18 19:20,25 22:6 34:6 35:7 44:18 44:19 49:25 55:6 63:5 64:6 69:1 78:3 87:3 92:19 96:21 98:4 108:24 120:12 ,14,16 125:23 148:1 179:19 183:15 189:24 **tall** 85:12 ,13 **taller** 85:7 **tank** 142:17 **tanked** 142:9 **tape** 111:13 **task** 56:1 **tasked** 180:11 **tasks** 29:16 **team** 5:20 161:10,11 **teams'** 161:12 **tease** 143:10 144:7 **technical** 140:2 **technically** 91:24 148:8 **technologic ...**  178:7 **technology** 141:18 **Ted** 1:6 3:3,11 4:25 106:13 **tee** 86:13 **teed** 121:12

**tell** 12:11 17:5 50:4 54:1 103:14 130:15 131:13 133:20 139:20 149:3 150:14 193:14 **telling** 78:12 102:21 **ten** 53:18 ,19 54:3,3,6,7 145:20 **tenants** 147:11 **tend** 183:3 **tends** 136:3 **term** 43:18 68:7 98:4,21 **terms** 11:24,25 19:24 26:2 29:14,22 43:4 49:1 ,21 50:6 63:19 68:5 100:23 117:14 120:14 155:8 167:6,9 181:10,21 ,22 182:11 186:8 186:20 201:7 **terrible** 21:12 **Terzigni** 2:18 4:18 50:21 **test** 56:2 ,6,8 56:20 57:25 57:25 58:4 58:11 ,25 59:2 ,8 ,12 ,15 59:22 ,24 60:5 ,23 61:5 61:12 ,23 62:8 ,9 63:2 ,4 83:12 84:2

97:11 99:24 102:20 103:3 103:4 104:23 **tested** 61:11 84:4 96:4 102:18 103:1 **testing** 61:7 105:2 165:21 **tests** 97:2 **Texas** 172:24 **textbook** 145:1 **than** 6:17 11:12 18:23 18:23,24 19:8 ,15 21:5 24:11 25:23 31:4 35:3,22 38:21 39:19 44:19 46:4,5 51:9 53:21 58:17 60:11 63:17 72:7 73:5 74:21 76:12 81:4 94:7 96:4 98:18 104:8 105:19 106:7 111:22 117:21 121:5 121:21 122:13 130:11 ,24 131:1 ,7 132:2 133:25 140:7 145:24 146:15 ,17 147:3 148:12 148:16 159:10 168:11 ,14,15 173:8 178:18 187:6 188:1

## Meeting June 1, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 48 188:14 190:1 192:8 195:8 196:23 197:18 **thank** 3:3 4:20 4:25 14:24 18:14,21 19:3 27:2 44:8 ,8 ,15 46:14,18 49:13 55:3 64:7 67:5 ,5 74:16 78:21 82:20 84:6 90:18 94:23 95:8 106:9 107:9 ,14 108:13,14 136:15 143:22 160:18 171:11 193:6 204:17 **Thanks** 10:6 105:14,24 112:24 158:19 **Tharp** 2:2 3:20 3:20 47:4,4 99:1 ,11 114:15 ,15 ,21 122:20 123:11 168:7 168:7,21 188:3,3 199:6 **themselves** 6:10 160:12 162:13 **theoretically** 55:6 **theory** 147:20 171:14,16 173:4 189:6 **thereabouts**

143:2 **thereby** 72:17 193:25 **therefore** 51:12 65:8 112:6 152:25 **thing** 9:11 27:12 ,15 30:16 38:9 39:3 40:24 41:20 64:17 82:4 83:6 89:14,19 96:1 ,15 97:16 100:6 101:10 109:18 110:7 124:18 128:21 134:24 145:19 147:7 147:21 157:25 167:16 170:14 193:18 ,23 197:5 **things** 10:11 11:25 27:3 30:5 36:20 40:8 41:18 47:5 51:16 62:19 63:9 86:6 88:2 ,4 89:16 94:18 105:6,22 111:1 ,2 121:25 143:8 156:1 164:6 169:21 170:10 183:18 191:17 **think** 5:2 ,3,14

5:21 6:9 ,12 6:14 7:1 10:18 ,18 13:6 18:13 19:2 ,16 21:12 24:13 24:18 25:4 25:10,17,17 25:21 ,23 26:4 27:12 28:20 31:15 31:16 35:2 35:13,14,23 35:23 36:10 38:4,4 41:19 44:5 47:1 ,11 47:18 49:19 49:24 50:2 ,9 52:21 55:6,9 55:10,22 56:4,15 58:15 ,25 59:4,6,7 60:3 61:24 62:7 62:23,25 63:16 64:1 ,3 64:10,22 65:10 66:14 66:22 68:13 68:21 69:6 69:14,21 78:24 79:12 83:14,24 84:9 ,12 85:24,25 86:5 ,11 ,12 86:25 87:25 89:11 90:20 90:22 ,24 93:12 94:17 94:19 ,20 95:22 96:5 ,7 96:15 ,18 ,21 104:15 ,20,22

104:25 105:11 ,21 106:4 107:21 107:23 108:16,25 109:25 110:13 111:16 112:8 113:2 ,12 ,15 114:5 ,23 115:20 116:8 118:13,18 ,18 121:11 122:12 ,13,15 124:12 ,18 ,25 125:3,4,24 126:24 129:2 129:3 131:18 131:19 133:3 133:10,23,24 133:24 134:2 134:8 ,10,18 135:13 137:5 137:12 ,25 138:1 ,5 139:18 141:21 144:6 144:21 ,21 145:16,20 146:3,4 147:2 ,6,7,7 147:21 ,23 148:4 149:5 149:21 152:12 ,13 153:20 157:1 157:23 159:7 159:9 165:4 166:14,20,20 167:1 168:2 168:5 169:5 169:13,13 170:9 172:4 172:22

173:14,23 174:8 175:20 177:16,24 178:13,14,16 178:17,25 179:1 ,6,7 181:2 182:3 184:13 185:23 186:23 187:13,15 ,24 188:9 ,11 189:2 ,16,17 190:4,11 ,13 190:21 ,22 ,24 191:9 ,17 192:2 ,5 ,14 195:1 196:7 196:8 ,21 ,25 197:1 ,2 ,4 200:22 201:6 201:22 202:8 203:21 204:4 **thinking** 12:21 31:21 37:21 91:22 97:19 104:6 107:20 128:14 147:17 155:7 191:3,3 **third** 15:21 16:7 21:16 23:7,16 36:12 42:22 42:22 94:7 101:15 160:8 183:4 **thought** 9:9 26:2 36:24 36:25 58:6 59:15 83:10 87:3 90:25 91:18 ,19

## Meeting June 1, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 49 109:20 110:11 128:18 ,19 132:21 160:7 173:24 177:2 **thoughts** 71:2 90:13 108:19 108:20 148:22 **thousand** 120:11 **thread** 116:23 116:24 **three** 15:17,17 20:11 38:11 43:21 79:3 83:23 84:14 86:1 110:19 122:13,14,23 126:8 130:11 131:1 ,7 132:2 135:9 140:7 154:21 169:19 170:20,22 171:8 172:5 172:8 189:7 190:22 192:17 194:22 195:13 199:14,16 **three-and-a- ...**  38:12 **three-stage** 192:14,16 **three-tier** 188:18 **threshold** 178:11 **thresholds** 181:17 **throw** 75:20 106:1 **Thumbs** 7:11

**thunder** 6:9 13:1 **Thursday** 159:8 185:14 **tied** 139:13 **tier** 200:23 **tiered** 175:8 **tiering** 166:4,5 **tight** 101:14 **time** 6:7 10:20 14:20 17:22 23:2 ,21 25:16 28:5 29:8 ,13 30:14 34:14 43:3 52:10 52:15 64:9 64:11 70:23 74:8 75:9 ,11 86:5 97:11 109:24 110:2 114:5 ,8 ,11 114:11 ,13,14 115:2 121:12 121:13 124:21 126:8 128:9 131:23 135:18 137:6 137:11 ,23 138:1 139:1 139:22 142:20 144:11 152:15 ,16,23 152:24 153:5 157:8 159:12 167:13 169:1 169:25 170:17 172:15 189:25 198:1 198:11 203:15 ,16 **time-depend ...** 

149:17 **timeline** 152:15 **times** 16:8 41:1 ,3,8 ,10 92:4 140:12 168:5 197:19 201:24 **timing** 113:2 **Title** 27:24 173:1 **to-do** 196:18 **today** 27:14 63:11 75:8 85:21 89:24 92:15 96:4 105:9 ,19 106:21 116:20 123:17 134:14 157:2 159:5 ,16 162:20 164:2 174:19 175:13 177:11 178:17 182:16 193:21 194:2 195:14 201:15 202:3 202:19 **together** 79:22 124:14 150:15 155:17 157:9 170:4 188:25 198:9 ,10 203:15 **told** 187:18 194:1 **tomorrow** 63:11 107:2 108:25 109:4

109:8 110:1 113:2 ,21 114:3,5 ,11 114:20 116:21 140:8 155:5 194:3 203:12 204:7 204:15 **ton** 11:4 23:12 30:18 36:16 42:11 47:8 ,9 50:3 55:13 56:11 ,16 58:15 **tonight** 106:24 107:15 108:6 **tons** 11:5 ,5 ,15 12:2 14:5 16:6 20:22 20:24,24 23:21 28:20 33:21 ,23 35:10,21 36:17 37:4 38:9 43:1 44:21 45:11 53:14,14 85:18 116:14 118:25 **took** 31:24 32:9 71:21 75:12 131:22 138:6,8 ,9 ,10 143:2 164:18 187:18 201:2 **tool** 67:15 154:18 **tooling** 195:4 **tools** 69:16 **top** 72:23 75:23 76:19 79:14 81:11 **top-down** 55:7 159:25

**topic** 10:9 19:2 78:23 96:20 125:3 140:18 **Toro** 2:15 4:18 115:13 126:2 **toss** 204:11 **total** 9:3 13:13 55:23 126:14 126:21 132:24 133:25 134:18 135:20 149:13 150:2 151:5 ,13 152:2 155:16 156:24 168:15 169:7 196:22 **totally** 101:7 **totals** 151:20 153:11 **touch** 162:17 197:7 **tour** 195:2 **toward** 89:2 ,7 **towards** 28:11 56:3 77:24 175:19 189:22 **trademark** 193:15 **trajectory** 141:16 **Trane** 4:1 ,12 33:18 34:3 36:15 55:5 61:3 154:25 167:14 **transcribe** 205:4 **TRANSCRIB ...**  2:25

## Meeting June 1, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 50 **transcript** 66:16,17 106:21 ,25 107:8 113:10 198:17,23 205:5 **transcripts** 66:18 **transition** 45:24 **translates** 19:24 **transposition** 21:17 **trash** 204:10 **treat** 149:7 **tremendous** 11:19 **trend** 28:4 70:21 141:1 141:9 148:13 149:3 152:21 153:5 **trends** 201:11 **trial** 8:24 9:1 **tried** 194:25 **triggered** 170:23 **triggering** 131:7 **trillion** 177:19 182:24 183:7 **triple** 168:4 **triple-counti ...**  183:24 **trouble** 142:12 **true** 24:14 29:21 173:18 173:18 178:11 189:18 205:5 **truly** 35:24 36:21 **try** 5:11 29:17 67:3,7 82:15

111:16 117:3 158:18 172:14 179:8 179:16 182:18 197:11 **trying** 12:5 35:19 66:19 66:20 92:14 96:20 97:17 103:15 ,20 104:23 107:14 109:24 111:1 119:23 125:20 127:4 127:24 154:17 177:1 179:24 182:9 182:18 **TS** 9:17 **TSL** 9:19 58:16 133:11 ,21 154:3 157:17 158:6,7 164:25 167:16 171:12 ,14 172:11 173:5 173:8 ,13 185:18 187:16 188:13 189:6 189:10,12 191:7,13 **TSL-1** 56:12 **TSL-2** 56:12 **TSLs** 9:17 47:17 133:3 148:20 153:21 ,23 155:15 156:2 **turn** 4:24 5:19 6:18 19:23

46:21 89:12 121:20 **turning** 140:17 **tweaks** 107:24 **twice** 203:11 **two** 7:14 14:5 22:10 26:25 27:17 30:21 31:13 38:23 40:8 ,10 63:11 75:4 76:10 79:19 79:19 80:1 82:17 84:14 85:25 94:21 95:2 99:12 103:24 104:12 115:11 126:10 131:9 131:10,11 ,11 133:22 ,25 138:16 143:5 150:9 154:20 162:16 163:1 169:19 ,23,24 170:2 177:18 179:17 182:21 ,21 190:21 195:7 195:11 196:5 202:15 ,24 **two-and-a-h ...**  42:4 188:13 **two-stage** 39:13 **two-tenths** 12:23 83:14 83:18 104:17 117:18 ,21 122:2 **type** 9:14 21:7 21:9 22:9 ,13 24:7,9 40:10

40:11 43:20 87:5 92:23 95:6 107:12 110:19 111:4 145:4 150:15 167:7 178:22 190:15 **types** 34:23 88:11 102:8 149:8 152:4 **typical** 97:13 100:7 **typically** 48:11 49:3 80:4,17 80:23 81:2 ,4 81:19 82:10 82:11 ,12 83:14 86:17 89:24 99:8 152:23 159:10 169:19 196:13 **typo** 14:19 ,21 **U Uber**  46:6 **Uh-huh** 74:16 **UL** 99:10,22 ,23 **UL1995** 99:1 99:12 ,18 ,24 **UL60335** 99:12 **ultimately** 26:4 **un-muted** 4:21 **unanimous** 123:21 **uncertainty** 128:14 138:1 193:7 **unclear** 97:25 **uncomforta ...**  129:4 **uncommon** 48:16

**underestima ...**  168:6 **underlying** 52:13 **understand** 18:2 22:8 27:21 34:11 36:15 53:1 ,3 66:21 75:18 75:21 92:15 109:20 110:13,17 119:24 130:5 137:4,5 158:13,14 162:8 167:16 173:24 174:8 179:2 180:10 189:14 191:25 195:24 196:1 196:4 197:9 197:19 199:12 ,14,17 200:23 201:1 202:21 ,21 **understandi ...**  10:1 26:8 52:13 71:3 89:7 109:16 121:4 123:23 128:4 136:7 159:12 174:14 185:3 191:12 199:1 201:6,17 202:13,18 ,18 **understated** 197:5 ,11 ,13 198:14 **understood** 121:13 **undertake**

## Meeting June 1, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 51 193:24 **undertaking** 166:17 **Undoubtedly** 142:15 **unexpected** 190:2 **Unfortunately** 120:22 **unique** 200:13 **uniqueness** 164:3 **unit** 7:21 8:11 13:14 19:21 20:15 21:7,8 22:8 23:1 24:20 31:9 32:10 33:15 35:11 38:24 39:12 ,17,23 41:1 ,7,16 53:16 57:18 60:17,24 72:21 ,22 73:20,20 74:2 80:13 81:13 83:8 85:18 87:12 88:7 91:20 91:23 92:10 92:24 93:5 ,6 93:20,23 95:16 98:4,6 100:4,7,14 100:15 ,16 101:6,9 117:11 120:5 121:5 149:20 149:20,24 150:11 151:6 153:16 187:1 199:22 **unitary** 1:1 8:6 140:23 170:4 **units** 7:24 11:4

13:22 ,24 15:21 16:15 16:16 20:17 20:20 21:2 23:11 ,14,25 24:9 ,10 25:22 27:14 28:2 ,22 ,23 30:22 ,22 ,24 34:17 37:8 38:19 40:2 40:12 43:20 47:21 49:8 49:10,17 59:17,25 60:13 61:8 63:4 73:25 74:19 ,25 80:3,10 85:8 85:8 86:14 87:10 89:24 90:12 91:2 92:2 ,18 93:16,18 94:5 ,9 95:2 95:10 96:25 101:18 115:3 116:16 117:6 120:25 121:1 125:11 ,13,23 127:14,14,15 127:19 145:15 151:3 153:2 198:19 198:25 199:2 199:5 ,16,22 **unknown** 171:10 **unless** 6:19 44:21 116:16 194:11 **unnoticed** 116:10 **untangle**

142:19 **unusual** 144:14 **update** 103:3 108:4 **updated** 8:11 152:19 **updates** 7:15 10:22 15:17 **updating** 8:3 14:8 156:8 **upfront** 186:12 **upon** 7:13 11:2 17:12 ,25 21:2 22:24 27:11 30:8 33:10,15 56:7 107:16 109:11 162:17 164:2 190:6 **upper-bound** 163:25 182:22 **ups** 145:11 **upstream** 153:9 159:20 **uptick** 147:19 **usage** 25:24 28:9 59:21 **USC** 65:25 112:23 201:17 **use** 5:24 10:17 10:18 ,22 ,23 11:24 13:13 15:5 16:2 19:23 21:9 22:2 25:12 25:18 ,22 30:1 33:10 37:19 38:22 40:1 ,4,15 44:14 46:6

46:10 48:12 48:16 56:4,7 57:8 ,9 58:2 59:3,6,9 60:1 60:12 64:5 65:4,20 67:15 70:21 72:12 73:23 76:22 ,23 84:2 86:21 95:4 98:3 99:2 ,4,6,6,9 99:13 109:24 112:3,18 117:3 120:12 127:4 132:22 140:13,14 149:24 150:6 150:12 ,21 151:16 152:17 163:5 164:13 175:7 182:18 195:9 **useful** 90:23 177:2 **users** 87:18 **uses** 87:21 117:5 **usually** 6:22 66:19 204:11 **utility** 54:24 55:2 137:20 **V VAC**  21:17 **vacancy** 146:21 ,23,24 147:15 **valid** 58:21 **validation** 195:13 **valuable** 188:20 **value** 8:8

29:15 48:14 50:6 105:3 150:17 152:18 156:22 186:20 187:3 **values** 14:11 17:14,15 48:10 50:1 ,5 78:7,14 115:4,15 125:7 154:22 156:24 162:13,15 168:11 ,17 186:25 189:9 **variability** 149:25 **variable** 16:15 16:21 17:2 20:17,20 22:24 23:10 23:13,17,22 23:24 27:9 28:22 ,23 30:4 39:7,10 137:21 **Variables** 58:20 **variation** 137:18 **variety** 88:5 **various** 30:4 58:22 72:22 117:15 155:25 188:10 **VAV** 22:6,7,18 23:2 ,3,4,7 24:15 ,16,20 24:21 ,25 25:8 ,13,22 26:17 28:3,8

## Meeting June 1, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 52 35:15 ,15 36:6,9 ,11 ,22 37:14 42:2 ,8 42:13 57:16 126:25 **verify** 188:16 **version** 80:4 100:23 145:3 153:6 **versus** 19:6 23:11 28:1 36:17 47:24 63:1 86:22 121:9 149:1 173:16 **vertical** 80:2 81:7 83:22 85:9 ,18 86:15 87:4 88:19 91:8 91:14,15 ,18 91:20,23,25 92:1 ,10 93:5 93:6,15 ,23 94:4 102:5 ,6 102:8 **vertically** 81:9 **vertically-co ...**  82:25 **verticals** 91:2 102:2 **via** 2:8 ,9 ,10,11 2:12 ,13,14 2:15 ,16,17 2:18 ,19 ,20 2:21 ,22 **view** 5:4 19:5 54:25 107:18 203:20 **viewpoints** 139:19 **vintage** 149:23 149:24 151:8 151:14,15 **virtually** 40:8

**visualization** 100:19 **voice** 34:4 **volume** 16:15 16:15 ,16,21 16:21 ,21 17:1 ,2 20:15 20:17,20 21:2 ,8 22:6 22:20,24 23:10,11 ,11 23:13,13,17 23:22 ,24,25 24:16,22 25:1 ,2 ,9 27:7 27:10,25 28:2 ,8 ,12 ,22 28:23,23 30:4 35:13 35:16 36:6 36:19 37:5 37:19 ,25 39:7,8 ,10,14 39:15 ,17,23 40:10 51:8 52:7 88:3 89:6 129:14 130:11 ,16,19 130:20 131:24,24 132:17,24,24 174:25 175:4 175:7 **volume/vari ...**  39:15 **volumes** 49:2 133:14 162:6 200:25 **voluntold** 105:16 **vote** 7:11 67:24 **VRF** 59:25 **W**

**wait** 70:5 123:9 **waiting** 64:21 107:12 **walk** 73:14 80:6 161:17 185:16 **walked** 58:6 **wall** 92:17,23 203:5 **walls** 69:8 **want** 7:10 15:1 17:21 24:2 33:17,19 34:7,11 35:3 35:5 41:6,20 52:11 56:19 63:9 66:8 69:25 70:1 71:5 78:24 79:4 88:7 89:17 90:16 102:9 103:16 104:5 105:13 109:10,13,18 116:4 122:3 122:19 ,21 123:16 124:22 140:2 141:22 151:24 154:9 154:18 156:5 157:8 159:11 164:24 167:8 167:15 175:5 179:2 ,21 185:15 ,18 188:23 189:1 196:1 200:2 **wanted** 18:18 21:14,16 29:25 57:1 86:3 89:17

106:18 108:3 115:9 116:9 117:3 127:1 127:5 154:20 187:20 **wants** 6:19 107:25 **warehouse** 88:20 **warm** 170:3 183:22 184:1 198:2 **warming** 182:11 **wash** 146:9 **washers** 107:7 112:16 **Washington** 7:9 53:15 **wasn't** 18:19 21:19 31:15 49:6 109:3 139:17 154:25 **waste** 178:25 **water** 33:22 34:12 35:6,8 **water-cooled** 83:4 **wattage** 71:13 115:14 116:12 ,24 **wattages** 118:11 **way** 17:23 20:25 25:13 36:21 ,22 38:7 44:5 ,10 51:20 55:10 58:7,10,10 68:12 69:21 80:19 87:17 96:4 100:7 100:14 102:6

104:4 113:7 113:8 116:4 117:17,18 118:9 124:6 124:9 125:21 134:19 136:3 143:11 144:24 145:14,22 164:20 167:2 173:24 174:1 174:14 178:25 ,25 180:3,14 190:20,24 191:4 194:8 197:14 199:17 204:11 **ways** 195:7,20 **we'd** 21:7,7 51:7 **we're** 5:2 ,3,4,7 5:11 ,15 ,21 6:3,21 15:19 17:2 19:1 ,25 22:17,25 27:6,9 28:10 31:5 34:23 36:22 44:13 44:18 ,19 45:24 47:1 49:9 ,25 50:2 50:6 51:9 53:11 ,16 56:8 58:18 62:8 ,23 64:21 66:19 66:20,24 68:25 70:23 72:9 75:7 77:23,25 78:3 84:15

## Meeting June 1, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 53 85:21 ,21 87:3,3 89:2 91:11 93:20 95:12 97:7 97:16 104:24 105:8 ,11 107:18 108:10 109:15 ,25 111:18 114:8 116:15 124:7 125:23 127:7 127:24 131:22 133:8 133:11 134:13,14 139:25 140:8 148:20 154:17 155:17,22 156:8 159:5 160:20 163:4 166:11 167:10 170:10 177:1 177:8 178:17 179:7,14,16 179:19 180:8 181:5 ,6,6 182:3,3,17 183:25 185:25 189:24 193:21 ,22 ,24 194:2 ,13 195:1 ,9 196:13 197:11 ,15 198:14 203:10,12 ,13 203:14 **we've** 6:3 9:14 37:9 39:24 49:21 51:24 52:9 55:17

56:4 62:17 62:19 ,20 63:5 66:19 67:16 73:11 98:21 ,21 107:11 ,17 108:17 122:12 124:9 126:5 146:14 155:19 ,19 157:13 159:8 159:16 161:15 163:25 164:6 170:20 176:10 178:18 180:18 ,18 188:18 198:17 199:7 **weather** 5:9 98:18 **weatherized** 97:23 98:2 ,8 98:13,25 **webinar** 2:8 ,9 2:10,11 ,12 2:13,14,15 2:16,17,18 2:19 ,20,21 2:22 3:10 4:15 ,21 **website** 43:24 47:23 **Wednesday** 6:6 29:11 64:4 126:7 127:22 159:7 185:14 **weeds** 144:19 **week** 8:15 ,21 9:3 11:1 ,12 12:6 15:25 38:21 43:14

44:2 ,25 45:2 115:8 ,8 **week's** 12:9 **weekend** 61:16,17,17 **weeks** 9:15 62:20 66:19 75:4 107:1 107:10 161:16 190:21 **weighted** 16:3 16:7,9 17:14 54:17 76:12 76:18 152:6 152:7 **weighting** 23:19 53:5 **Welcome** 5:1 **well-taken** 96:7 **went** 13:14 23:18 31:21 45:2 58:6 62:14,15 74:24 75:10 134:4,8 136:8 148:4 165:19 **Westphalen** 2:3 5:8 64:10 70:11 ,11 ,17 73:16 74:15 74:17,22 ,25 75:5 ,12 ,25 76:3,5 78:13 78:17,22 79:8 90:10 90:22 91:3 91:13 92:21 93:3,11 ,14 94:15 95:7,9 96:15 ,18 98:6 99:15

99:25 100:10 101:3,15 102:9 103:12 104:6 105:11 105:20,23 115:1 116:11 117:2 118:10 118:15 ,22 119:4,19 120:5 ,14,18 120:22 122:9 122:15 ,24 123:1 ,4,9 ,14 123:20 124:5 124:20 125:2 125:9 ,24 126:1 198:24 199:10 **what’s** 94:21 **whenever** 4:22 12:6 166:22 169:11 **where** 5:19 10:13 13:5 15:24 18:13 25:12 28:5 ,9 30:25 31:7 40:5 43:11 43:16 44:12 47:12 ,13 49:11 59:18 63:22 64:16 68:23 74:19 76:8 ,13 77:7 84:11 87:15 87:20 88:2 ,7 88:16,20,22 89:9 ,9 ,11 96:4,11 108:5 ,12 117:24 119:1 129:12 ,14 130:15 131:12 ,19 ,24

132:16 144:12 149:13 153:21 154:9 155:9 156:3 156:23 160:14 163:11 171:15 172:24 173:11 176:3 176:21 177:5 177:25 180:6 180:13,20 182:17 183:3 184:24 185:17 187:15 190:3 190:22 191:14 192:5 199:8 200:6 200:7,25 201:1 ,7 203:21 **wherever** 81:18 **whether** 18:19 25:18 57:19 73:11 77:20 87:22 91:16 97:14 118:4 119:15 131:3 132:3 133:5 139:19 177:13 **Whitwell** 2:4 4:2 ,2 7:11 10:2 ,2 18:16 25:20,20 27:12 ,21 ,23 33:1 ,4 48:9 48:22 49:11 49:13 50:23

## Meeting June 1, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 54 50:23 51:23 52:6 53:1 ,3,7 53:24 57:12 58:9 73:12 75:17 76:2 ,4 79:3,7,10,13 79:17,20,21 80:9 82:8 ,12 82:18 ,21 84:4,7,12 85:3,20 86:2 86:8 ,16 87:14,19 ,25 88:24 89:15 90:5 ,16 91:5 91:24 92:8 93:1 ,12 94:19 95:21 96:1 98:3,10 98:13 99:22 100:9 ,24 101:4,21 102:13,23,25 103:6,19 ,21 103:24 104:3 104:11 105:8 105:17,21 ,24 106:2 117:10 118:2 ,13,17 118:23 119:1 119:8 ,12 ,22 121:16,22 ,22 122:12 123:25 124:12 ,25 127:12 ,12 ,20 129:16 130:10,15 165:24,24 166:14,20 170:16,22 171:11 ,21 172:1 ,13 173:1 174:3 174:21 175:3

175:23,25 180:17,25 183:10,18 190:11 192:24 193:1 193:2 196:1 201:12 **whole** 41:17 52:18 53:2 60:21 64:10 84:13 103:14 136:2 169:15 169:17 172:6 177:21 179:20 195:18 **whose** 105:2 116:16 **wide** 59:20 **wider** 85:6,10 **width** 81:20 102:4 **wiggles** 139:15 **wild** 189:8 **willing** 102:13 163:23 **Wilson** 2:16 4:18 **winners** 44:10 **Winningham** 2:5 3:21 ,21 28:24 55:21 58:13 132:15 135:23 144:16 175:16 189:16 190:13 196:19 197:3 197:9 200:5 201:14 **wish** 12:10 45:15 49:2

**within** 28:12 32:4 43:9 86:19 88:6,6 91:7 188:11 190:14 **won't** 48:6 50:13 114:13 147:22 **wonder** 45:17 104:7 **wondering** 42:14 108:3 108:22 109:2 110:18 114:10 138:18 **Woodford** 2:20 4:19 **word** 7:8 21:22 107:5 **wording** 103:16 **words** 16:5 19:9 20:21 35:15 42:10 114:13 164:7 171:17 **work** 5:7 24:23 25:2 55:25 56:7 59:14 59:19 60:10 60:14 63:18 83:9 93:10 102:13,19 103:1 113:10 124:11 134:3 136:4 140:21 153:23 161:10,12 162:23 176:20 179:8 180:13 182:10 184:21

197:17 **worked** 78:25 **working** 1:1 4:20 6:3 56:8 62:19 65:1 65:11 ,19 67:25 68:4,5 91:7 95:23 97:8 108:4 108:15 111:24 112:10,17 115:20 139:25 159:8 160:25 167:12 190:18 196:13 197:11 **works** 124:12 159:13 204:13 **worry** 134:20 **worse** 148:13 **worth** 90:15 96:21 **Worther** 2:14 4:17 **worthwhile** 176:8 **wouldn’t** 48:18 **wrangling** 133:11 **wrap** 194:20 **wrap-up** 157:14 **wrinkle** 187:22 **write** 61:5 102:20 111:17 **writing** 203:4 **written** 98:22 104:4 164:22 177:17

194:12 ,21 **wrong** 67:23 144:19 202:13 **X X**  44:12 ,12 117:5 193:14 **Xing** 2:6 4:13 **Xu** 2:6 4:13,13 **Y Y**  193:14 **yeah** 10:3 12:10,20,25 13:13,20 15:1 19:16 19:19 ,25 22:11 24:1 26:1 ,13 27:12 ,19 28:14,21 30:11 ,16 32:17 33:1 ,3 33:9 34:1 ,14 36:2 ,25 37:21 42:10 44:9 45:19 49:2 ,5 ,19 51:23 52:22 53:3 54:13 62:12 66:18 74:22 75:5 75:12 ,25 76:2 ,4,4 78:13,15 79:15 84:12 90:5 ,10,18 91:3 93:1 ,12 94:19 95:7 96:1 ,13,15 99:20,22 100:24 101:4

## Meeting June 1, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 55 101:21 102:7 103:4,6,19 104:4 106:2 106:20 118:10,10,13 118:22 ,22 119:12 120:18 ,22 122:16 123:1 123:4 124:20 125:9 126:13 128:6,7 129:1 ,9 132:10 134:16,17 136:1 137:4 138:25 139:4 139:18 ,25 140:16 142:7 148:10 149:5 154:17 155:7 157:13 163:23 166:10,14,18 169:18 170:13 171:18 173:1 173:20 178:14 179:13 183:10 190:13,19 191:4,5 193:15 197:4 197:15 198:8 198:24 202:14 204:4 **year** 78:18 ,18 138:9 141:24 143:3,3,9 149:19 ,22 150:1 ,3,3,23 151:2 ,13 153:15 173:5 173:22

**years** 43:21 51:17,18 52:18 ,24 53:17 145:20 161:5 170:2 170:20,22 171:8 172:5 172:8 178:9 178:19 187:21 189:7 **yep** 79:20 84:7 102:9 104:5 **yeses** 69:20 **yet** 139:24 180:20 184:24 196:17 **York** 172:24 **Z Z**  193:15 **Zendah** 2:7 4:3 4:3 173:14 173:14 190:20,21 **zero** 11:13 12:13 20:14 28:19 ,19 53:18 54:3 80:19 83:15 92:16 93:1 129:19 130:13 134:8 187:17 **zeroed** 129:24 130:3 **0 0**  16:10 17:23 26:11 77:1 **09** 143:17,18 **1 1**  1:3 9:16,17

12:14 18:23 20:20,23 22:4,20 23:1 26:10 32:1 35:3,4 39:5 39:14,16,18 39:22 40:12 40:14 58:16 61:7,12 77:2 78:1 80:20 136:8 144:5 154:4,4 156:2 167:16 171:12 ,14,22 172:11 173:5 173:8 177:20 185:18 ,19 186:6 187:16 189:6 191:7 **1-inch** 95:12 95:15 **1,000** 11:3 15:25 16:5 ,9 17:23 197:2 **1,085** 197:3,18 **1,750** 11:4 16:1 **1.0** 95:3 **1.2** 199:8 ,9 **1.3** 183:8 **1.4** 182:24 **1/1/16** 121:9 190:25 **1/1/2016** 172:22 **1:00** 46:2 **1:30** 106:3 **10** 44:19 52:18 52:24 53:14 53:14 54:14 128:15 133:5 143:17,18 145:24 157:10

**10-ton** 172:18 **10-year** 52:23 **10.05** 74:3 **10.6** 73:4,20 **10.9** 74:3 **10:37** 46:12 **10:40** 46:1 **10:42** 45:18 ,19 **10:50** 46:16,16 **100** 13:23 25:1 76:18 **11** 145:25 148:6 182:4 **11(8)** 201:18 **11.2** 20:24 31:4 **11.4** 26:11 30:18 31:4 31:17 **11.41** 32:15 **11.7** 73:5 ,21 **11:00** 46:17,18 **12** 36:12 70:16 **12.1** 74:4 **12.5** 199:21 **12.7** 31:5 165:6,21 **12.9** 30:18 ,18 31:4,17 32:14,16,20 32:24 **12:00** 46:3 64:13 **12:30** 106:4 **13** 54:2 166:22 **13,000** 53:19 54:11 **13.8** 74:4 **14** 54:2 85:21 **14-ton** 84:19 **14,000** 53:17 **14.0** 31:12 ,13 32:21 **14.5** 31:13

**14.8** 31:12 **14.9** 14:6,12 **15** 11:5 16:1 20:24 28:16 28:20 35:23 42:25 44:22 45:14 46:13 54:14 71:16 85:22 116:14 118:1 ,2 ,3,7 119:7,11 ,12 119:17 123:18 126:3 126:23,24 133:5 167:17 167:18 199:14 **15-ton** 14:4,15 43:22 49:10 49:17 51:1 115:17 199:2 **15-tons** 12:3 **15.5** 14:12 **15.6** 14:7,12 **15th** 66:20 **16** 49:18 **16,000** 138:24 **16.9** 20:23 **17** 28:20 52:3 54:17 **18** 53:7 125:20 **18-year** 52:4 **18,000** 11:17 **18,123** 13:15 **18,462** 13:15 **19** 36:11 54:5 54:6,7 191:3 **19.2** 28:15 42:17 **1978** 140:24 **1995** 143:2 **1999** 128:8 ,11 128:18

## Meeting June 1, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 56 **1E-245** 113:23 114:1 203:13 **1st** 6:4 115:12 115:12 173:5 **2 2**  9:16,17 11:9 18:23 26:16 35:4 40:13 58:16 73:7 73:22 76:17 94:11 100:5 101:16 102:17 103:10,11 104:10 125:20,20 136:8 156:2 188:13 189:10,12 **2-40** 99:12 **2,000** 47:9 197:2 **2,500** 47:8 **2.5** 11:3,13,22 12:14 17:23 36:10 41:22 **2.7** 186:20 ,21 **2:00** 106:3,4,6 106:9 ,12 **20** 33:23 35:9 36:16,17,18 37:4 46:13 51:18 53:19 77:2 85:21 133:7,8 ,9 146:15 ,17 148:6 **20-ish** 166:12 **20-plus** 51:17 54:4,12 **20-ton** 37:7,13 84:20 **20,000** 138:24 **20.6** 165:2

**2000** 128:12 **2003** 16:25 23:6 24:3 **2004** 128:10 **2005** 138:8 **2008** 139:16 141:25 **2009** 128:12 141:25 146:14 **2010** 27:23,23 138:6,23 139:17 141:25 142:3 142:13 143:3 143:16 146:14 **2011** 27:18 28:1 ,18 ,20 126:21 ,24 127:23 138:8 143:16 **2013** 140:24 194:7 **2014** 27:18 ,20 28:1 ,17 29:1 126:21 127:23 166:22 **2015** 1:3 153:18 205:12 **2016** 115:12 115:12 171:18 ,23 173:6,25 187:14 189:6 191:6 **2019** 153:17 171:14,19 172:10 173:7 189:7,9 ,12 **2019's** 173:13 **2048** 151:1

**210/240** 84:5 **21st** 140:22 **22** 53:8 ,23 170:6 **22-year** 52:1 **22.6** 8:8 **226** 165:1 ,23 166:11 **23** 7:24 23:2 32:14 **23.3** 22:5 31:20 **24** 27:24 173:1 **240,000** 83:3 84:10 **240,760** 35:9 **25** 25:1 36:16 36:17,18 37:4 76:5 **25-ton** 75:15 75:18 **26** 54:2 **26-year** 8:7 **26,000** 53:18 **26.7** 157:18 **27-ton** 75:15 76:5 ,6 **28** 54:2 90:23 **28,000** 53:18 **28.3** 157:18 **29.2** 22:5 32:17 **3 3**  9:17 11:3 13:4,5 ,21 ,24 15:5 ,23 17:19 ,24 18:23,24 38:19 ,20 41:23 42:4 43:13 45:2 49:9 ,16 60:15 ,22

61:2 ,4,20 77:12 103:17 134:9 150:7 153:13 156:16,16 157:17 164:25 168:24,25 169:2 175:10 188:1 **3-** 19:25 20:1 156:10 **3-percent** 157:16 **3.5s** 154:9 **3:00** 114:5 **3:24** 158:18 **3:45** 158:19 **30** 11:5 13:2 ,6 14:5 16:1 ,8 20:24 28:16 28:20 33:21 35:21 36:17 36:21 37:23 44:19 ,21 45:14 49:10 94:25 118:25 123:21 126:23 161:5 178:18 199:15 **30-odd** 178:9 **30-ton** 49:18 70:18 71:18 76:14 115:19 116:3,15 118:4,8 ,20 119:16,18 120:4 122:10 122:22 124:15 125:11 ,13 198:19 199:4 **30-year** 150:22

186:22 **308** 17:17 **31** 77:1 ,5 90:21 **32** 14:17 **33** 16:8 94:7 120:11 **333** 16:9 17:17 **34** 101:19 ,21 101:23,24 102:3,4 **34.6** 28:15 42:18 **340/360** 84:5 **35** 76:14 **36** 81:4,19 82:24,25 94:6 **39** 14:18 22:5 167:20,21 **3rd** 205:12 **4 4**  9:17 14:6,7 14:11 ,12 43:12 44:23 45:1 ,6 69:20 69:20,20 74:6 76:1 156:17,19 157:20 169:2 **4,000** 11:5 16:1 **40** 13:6 44:19 49:9 134:8 **40-ton** 76:16 **400** 19:25 20:1 40:19 **42** 65:25 112:23 201:17 **43** 42:6 49:12 49:12

## Meeting June 1, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 57 **44** 47:6 **45** 13:18 51:1 76:16 **46** 47:6 **48** 55:13 **49** 126:12 ,13 136:25 **5 5**  9:17,19 12:14 14:6,7 14:12 17:24 38:20 41:23 42:3 44:23 45:2 ,6 53:14 53:14 75:22 76:3 77:8 128:15 156:20 157:20 158:6 158:7 **50** 13:7 37:22 37:22 44:19 **50-ton** 76:19 **500** 40:20 **51** 26:11 **52** 137:2 **55** 76:19 **57** 136:18 **6 6**  9:3 23:12 ,21 23:23 28:15 39:11 42:19 **6-ton** 166:16 **60** 13:7 76:19 149:11 **61** 22:3 **62** 140:22 **6295(p)(4)** 65:25 112:23 201:25 **63** 33:23 35:10 36:17,21 201:17

**63-ton** 166:16 **69.2** 22:4 **7 7**  9:3,17 150:7 153:13 **7-percent** 156:21 **7.6** 136:13 **7:00** 110:9 **70** 13:5 ,7,25 15:24 **74** 167:16 **75** 73:3 **76** 7:23 **76-23** 10:3 **8 8**  187:2 **8-foot** 85:12 **8-ton** 84:15 **8:00** 109:25 110:9 114:3 **80** 7:22 ,24 9:6 9:13 13:25 34:17 77:4,6 144:13,17 **81** 7:18 ,24 8:17 9:7 **82** 8:14 **9 9.3**  20:21 **9:00** 113:4,18 113:21 114:3 203:13,14 204:17 **90** 85:12 **90.1** 27:23 37:22 115:11 120:9 121:9 122:1 168:11 169:2 ,3 172:15

187:13 189:21 191:18 ,19 192:4,13,16 **90.1's** 171:21 192:21 **90.1-2013** 171:13,22 173:2 190:23 **90.1-2016** 189:10 **90s** 138:13 147:13 **92** 138:9 ,11 144:1 176:4 181:14 **93** 144:1 **94** 39:17 40:10 **95** 60:14 143:24 176:4 181:15 **96** 138:10 **97** 176:4