UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
+ + + + + DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION FEDERAL AVIATION ADMINISTRATION 1

..-.; C> '$_:;..•**~-: ~-**  "- c-) In The Matter of: SKYDIVE MIDWEST, INC., Respondent,

v. FEDERAL AVIATION ADMINISTRATION, Agency. FAA NO. CP08GL0005 (Civil Penalty case) DMS FAA-2008-0778

Thursday, November 20, 2008 Chicago, Illinois
The above-entitled matter came on for hearing pursuant to notice at the hour of 9:30 o'clock a.m.
BEFORE: Richard C. Goodwin Administrative Law Judge

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(202)234-4433 COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISlANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005·3701 www.nealrgross.comAPPEARANCES: On Behalf of the Agency: MR. GLENN L. BROWN FAA Eegional Counsel 2300 East Devon Avenue Des Plaines, Illinois 60018-4696 (847) 294-7313 Fax: (847) 294-7498
On Behalf of the Respondent: MR. RICHARD E. STECK 19 South LaSalle Street Suite #602 Chicago, Illinois 60603 (312) 236-4200 Fax: (312) 896-5927

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1 P R 0 C E E D I N G S 2 ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: The 3 Federal Aviation Administration against 4 Skydive Midwest, Inc. 5 Counsel you'11 identify yourself 6 for the record please. 7 MR. BROWN: Glenn L. Brown Office 8 of Regional Counsel Federal Aviation 9 Administration Des Plaines, Illinois. 10 MR. STECK: Richard E. Steck for 11 the Respondent Chicago, Illinois. 12 ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: That's 13 Stack S-T-A-C-K? 14 MR. STECK: S-T-E-C-K. 15 ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: Are you 16 okay? 17 COURT REPORTER: Yes. 18 ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 19 Counsel. Ready to proceed or I was just on 20 the phone with my, Mr. Liebowitz, we're ready 21 to proceed or is there a settlement or? 22 MR. BROWN: There is a settlement.

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### 1 I have one allegation I need to withdraw from 2 the complaint. 3 ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 4 MR. BROWN: Respondent is going to 5 put some information on the record that we 6 have a settlement. 7 ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 8 

### MR. BROWN: All right. With regard 9 to that as to the complaint the administrator 10 is withdrawing the allegation that Skydive 11 Midwest is the owner of this aircraft and we 12 were accepting the other allegations. 13 I don't know with regard to the 14 settlement did you want to make any other 15 changes, Mr. Steck? 16 

### MR. STECK: The, there was some 17 confusion about various entities that were 18 involved in the flight operations here. 19 

### When I filed the answer to the 20 complaint I filed an admission that the 21 flights in question were operated by this 22 entity. I believe we should have denied that.

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### 1 ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 2 Well, if, but the allegation in the complaint 3 is that Skydive owned the aircraft? 4 MR. STECK: No, there are two, the 5 allegation that they owned it and that they, 6 yes is that they owned it is also an 7 allegation that they had a relationship with 8 Skydive Midwest aviation to provide aircraft 9 and pilot services which actually I think is 10 right, isn't it? 11 MR. BROWN: No. 12 MR. STECK: Okay. Well, for what, 13 whatever it's worth we have a settlement on 14 the case. I just wish to withdraw allegation 15 number two for the record and then we have a 16 settlement with regard to the other elements 17 subject to some information being on the 18 record. 19 

### ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 20 So, Mr. Steck, does your client object to the 21 withdrawal of allegation number two? 22 MR. STECK: No.

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(202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com6 1 ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: I didn't 2 think she would. All right. 3 Which leaves just allegation 4 number one? 5 MR. BROWN: Well, allegation, yeah 6 one and then three through the rest of them. 7 ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 8 And what else did you then want to put on the 9 record? 10 MR. STECK: Well, I want to, one 11 thing that I already put on the record was 12 that we should deny operational control. 13 ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: Right. 14 MR. STECK: But

-- 15 ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: But 16 you've

-- 17 MR. STECK:

-- secondly

-- 18 ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: Let me 19 ask you this. Just, and I understand where 20 you're trying to go. 21 If he withdraws allegation number 22 two does that moot the issue as to whether or
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1 not you should have denied it

-- 2 MR. STECK: No. 3 ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: 

### 4 denied that allegation? 5 MR. STECK: No. Well, we, we did 6 deny that one I believe. 7 ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 8 But, Mr. Brown, do you have any objection to 9 him changing his answer to deny the allegation 10 with respect
-- 11 MR. BROWN: It, I'm sorry. 12 ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: That's 13 okay. Do you have any objection to Respondent 14 changing the answer so that they deny the 15 allegation that

-- 16 MR. STECK: Number three. 17 ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: Number 18 three rather than admit to
-- 19 MR. BROWN: In light of the 20 settlement no, your Honor. 21 ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 22 So let the record reflect that the

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1 Respondent's answer has been changed so that 2 the substance of allegation number three is 3 reflected to be shown as denied. 

### 4 Is that? 5 MR. STECK: That's correct. 6 ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 7 Now having withdrawn allegation number two, 8 denied allegation number three

-- 9 MR. STECK: The other thing that we 10 wish to put on the record

-- 11 ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: Sure. 12 MR. STECK:

-- is that my client, 13 Skydive Midwest, Inc. is no longer in 14 business. They have sold the assets of the 15 company to another entity and are no longer 16 operating or not operating, look at any sort 17 of Skydive facility in any manner. 18 ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: Was it a 19 corporation? 20 MR. STECK: It's a corporation. It 21 has not been formally dissolved from my 22 understanding but they have ceased all

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### 1 operations and all the assets have been sold. 2 ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: Is that 3 your understanding, Mr. Brown?

-· 4 

### MR. BROWN: Yes, your Honor. 5 

### ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: So I'm 6 showing that Skydive Midwest is out of 7 business, no longer in business, has sold all 8 of its assets and has ceased operation even 9 though the legal entity as we lawyers 10 understand it being said but that's another 11 issue. 12 MR. STECK: That is correct. 13 

### ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 14 Next step. 15 MR. BROWN: And that with regard to 16 that the, we have agreed to settle the case 17 for $1000. 18 MR. STECK: That's correct. 19 

### ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: And 20 that's correct, Mr. Steck, that

-- 21 MR. STECK: That's correct. 22 ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: That the

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### 1 entity, now is the entity in question Skydive 2 Midwest that's the one who is going to pay the 3 

### $1000? 4 MR. STECK: Yes. 5 

### ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 6 So Skydive Midwest will pay a civil penalty of 7 

### a $1000? 8 MR. STECK: That's correct. 9 

### ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: Now 10 mechanically it doesn't make any difference to 11 me do you want me to issue an order on that or 12 do you two want to enter into, a settlement 13 agreement and then either you can withdraw 14 your answer or you can withdraw the complaint 15 and I'll just dismiss the case but I'll leave 16 that to you two
-- 17 MR. STECK: It doesn't matter
-- 18 MR. BROWN: Why don't we just do it 19 this way. You want the, you need the 30 days 20 to pay that or? 21 MR. STECK: Yeah. That's fine. 22 MR. BROWN: Okay. We'll take the

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1 

### order, your Honor, that would be our 2 preference. 3 

### ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 4 So you want the order to reflect that, I need 5 to put my glasses on and

-- I'm at that stage 6 in life I have to put my glasses on to find my 7 glasses. 8 

### MR. BROWN: Yes, I definitely 9 resemble that remark. 10 ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 11 What I'll try to do is a simple order 12 reflecting that the case has been settled and 13 the Respondent agrees to pay a civil penalty 14 fine in the amount of $1000 by, pick a date, 15 Mr. Steck. 16 

### MR. STECK: What's the date, the 17 20th? 18 MR. BROWN: The 20th. 19 MR. STECK: December 20th. 20 MR. BROWN: December 20th. 21 ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: December 22 20th. And send him the check. The reason I

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### 1 say that is I had a Respondent send me the 2 check made out to me. And it took your 3 counter part, it ended up four weeks to figure 4 out what to do with it. 5 

### MR. BROWN: I, I'm surprised they 6 figured it out that fast. 7 

### ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: Yeah, 8 well let me tell me I didn't want anything to 9 do with it. 10 So what I will ask you to do, Mr. 11 Steck, is send the check to Mr. Brown or 12 whoever he identifies. 13 Mr. Brown, when you get the check 14 15 

### MR. BROWN: How do we -- 16 

### ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN:

-- once 17 you get the check 18 

### MR. STECK: I can send him the 19 

### instructions for how to do it. It actually 20 

### goes to Oak City. You can actually put in 21 online with a credit card if he wants, send 22 you instructions.

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### 1 MR. BROWN: Okay. 2 

### ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: But why 3 don't I do this. Let me issue an order that 4 the case has been settled and that the 5 Respondent will pay $1000 on or before 6 December 20. 7 MR. STECK: Right. 8 

### ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: Once 9 you, Mr. Brown, know that the check has been 10 received let me know and I will dismiss the 11 case on the basis that it's been settled. 12 MR. BROWN: Fine, that's fine. 13 MR. STECK: That's good. 

### 14 ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: Gives 15 Mr. Liebowitz something to do. 16 MR. BROWN: Sure. 17 

### ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: And 18 again I understand the holidays are coming up. 19 If you run into a problem, Mr. Steck, call Mr. 20 Brown and if you two need to slip that date, 21 Mr. Brown just send me an order and I'll sign 22 it.
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### 1 MR. BROWN: I will do that. 2 ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: And two 3 things while I'm thinking about it, Mr. Brown, 4 unrelated to this case. 5 

### We discovered a glitch in the 6 

### system. Somebody, one of your counterparts 7 had filed a suit three years ago. · It just 8 showed up in our office a month ago. 9 If you send a case and you know 10 it's coming to us and you don't hear Judge 11 Bacon and I as you've probably discovered 12 when, when we get the case assigned to us we 13 pretty much generate a procedure or we both 14 tend to settle them quickly. 15 If after some reasonable length of 16 time you know a case has been forwarded to our 17 office and you haven't heard anything

-- 18 MR. BROWN: Sure. 19 

### ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: 20 please feel free to call Mr. Liebowitz or me 21 and we, what we'll do is we'll look down the 22 system.
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### 1 I don't know what the disconnect 2 was. 3 

### MR. BROWN: I've seen that happen 4 on several occasions where we've had cases and 5 actually just maybe that one. 6 What happens is they kind of get 7 lost in my process'but I'll, I'll, there's an 8 appeal, it's filed and we don't hear anything 9 more on it and the presumption is an 10 inappropriate presumption is that, you know, 11 it, that they withdrew it and didn't tell us 12 and, and paid it. 13 

### But there is a, there is a 14 monumental disconnect in a number of, of 15 situations where the docket doesn't follow up 16 and frankly we don't, you know, I just don't 17 get, and I will remind the staff

-- 18 

### ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, 19 please feel, and, and let your colleagues, I 20 saw, I saw Mr.

-- and told him but feel free 21 to call Mr. Liebowitz 22 MR. BROWN: Yes, sir.

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### 1 ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: 2 because Judge Bacon and I both feel very 3 strongly that the parties are entitled to due 4 process and we try and get them sent in, you 5 know, quickly and, and things happen. 6 

### And we've also had some problems 7 with DMS. They'll get stuff we don't get. We 8 get stuff they don't get. 9 When I discover it, you know, we, 10 we try to take care of it. These are systemic 11 problems to your government, Mr. Steck. 12 

### MR. BROWN: One other, one other 13 question, your Honor. 14 ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. 15 MR. BROWN: I, I got an order and I 16 believe it was from Judge Bacon that there is 17 an additional element now the DOT now has 18 their own docket in addition to the FAA docket 19 there's

-- 20 ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes, 21 

### MR. BROWN:

-- a DOT docket 22 ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN:

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### 1 well, actually it's always been that way. 2 You, the FAA has your, you have your own 3 docketing system
-- 4 MR. BROWN: Okay. 5 

### ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN:

-- it's 6 the, as an example, 2005 something 7 MR. BROWN: Yes. 8 

### ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: and 9 another number once it gets to DOT docketing. 10 MR. BROWN: Okay. 11 

### ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: It gets 12 assigned another number. That's where in this 13 case the, hold on a second, that's where the 14 FAA 2008 15 MR. BROWN: Okay. 16 

### ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN:

-- 0778 17 number came from. 18 MR. BROWN: All right. 19 ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: The CP 20 number seems to come from your office. Now 21 why we need three docketing numbers I don't 22 even want to go.
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### 1 MR. BROWN: Right. 2 ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: But I 3 

### agree with you. To me it's the height of 4 absurdity that you have a number in your 5 office, it gets another number at FAA docket 6 and a third number when it gets to my office. 7 Well, I'm not.in charge. 8 

### MR. BROWN: Okay. Well, true 9 neither am I. And with, well, it's not that 10 dramatically different. The NTSB although the 11 FAA would have a docket and then it keeps that 12 docket number until the initial decision. It 13 only picks up the third number if it's 14 appealed. 15 

### But yes I, that is a problem. I 

### 16 understand that there's, there was at some 17 point in time some effort to try and move it 18 but the docket wanted their own numbers rather 19 than using the, you know, the other numbering 20 system
-- 21 ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: I don't 22 have a problem with the number that comes up
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1 from your office. I don't know why my 2 department insists upon assigning a new 3 number. 4 MR. BROWN: Okay. But I will pass 5 that 6 along 7 ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: --when 8 I take over we'll get it all straightened out. 

### 9 MR. BROWN: Okay. 10 ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: I was 11 too busy running the last election. 12 MR. BROWN: I understand. 13 ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: And the 14 other thing is I don't know what you all can 15 file but I think once you go through your 16 pleadings make sure that there's no personal 17 information in anything that you file. 18 I've taken the position that any 19 personal information from either party should 20 not be filed. 21 The reason is, Mr. Steck, 22 everything that you file goes on the Internet.

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### 1 And if your Respondent has something, her home 2 address, her home phone number I've instructed 3 everybody to redact that. 4 I don't think in this day and age 5 any of that information especially true in the 6 FAA and inspectors but it's also true for 7 Respondents. 8 So I invite you any time you file 9 a pleading with me redact any personal 10 information including home phone numbers, home 11 addresses, any identifiable information. Have 12 people put their business address and post 13 office. 14 Hell to get hung up on this, that 15 stuff and I just think we ought to keep it out 16 of the record. 17 

### MR. BROWN: Let me ask you, you 18 know, along those lines how are we handling 19 our, I mean how does your docket handle the 20 situation where you have for example in a 21 civil penalty case you've got somebody who is 22 presenting ability to pay information and in

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### 1 many cases you've got some very detailed and 2 very personal information on that and that's

- 3 4 

### ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: I , I 5 seal it. 6 MR. BROWN: Oh, you seal it. 7 

### ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: I will

. 8 seal it. 9 MR. 

### BROWN: Oh, okay. That's fine. 10 ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: And, you 11 know, and again in Mr. Steck's case if they 12 did. I invite you take a look at, I did, I 13 forget how the case was captioned. I did one, 14 I didn't want anyone to get this excited about 15 

### it. 16 I 

### did a case called Alaska 17 Airlines et al versus Los Angeles World 18 Airports about a year and a half ago Docket 19 No. OST-2007-27331. It was, it was an airport 20 rape case involving Los Angeles Airport and 21 name and airline. 22 And there was a lot of things in

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1 

### that case everything from security issues to 2 financial stuff. We took testimony on, what 3 other airports airlines were looking at going 4 into

-- 5 

### MR. BROWN: Okay. 6 

### ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: And I 'm, 7 

### what would happen is I'd stop the hearing. 8 

### We're go off the record. Come back on the 9 

### record in a closed session, take testimony and 10 take evidence, close the record, go off the 11 

### record, come back on the record in an open 12 

### session. 13 

### And it had 11,000 pages of 14 exhibits, 3000 pages of testimony and there 15 are whole blocks of it that don't show up. I 16 mean that's an extreme example but if she 17 filed a financial statement and neither one of 18 you requested it be sealed I'd seal it, put it 19 in a manila envelop and what I did in the LAX 20 case is it could only be opened by counsel, by 21 

### representatives of counsel or by order of 22 myself or OGC or a court officer.

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### 1 MR. BROWN: Well, thank you. I 

### 2 will pass that along. 3 ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: Because 4 everybodyhas proprietary information. And my 5 position is that it didn't belong in the 6 public record. 7 MR. BROWN: Okay. 8 

### ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: And I 9 think Judge Bacon feels the same or he and I 10 have lunch together whenever I'm in D.C. which 11 I try to be as little as possible. 12 MR. BROWN: All right. Thank you. 13 

### ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 14 And you see in my pleadings if, Mr. Steck, the 15 reason I put in my orders that be careful 16 about what you mail us. It's usual that if, 17 if you mail something to my office it takes 18 three weeks to get there. 19 I don't know whose redoing the FAA 20 regs. I've encouraged them to modify the regs 21 to allow faxes and e-mails. 22 What happens is all the mail goes
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1 through the Brentwood processing center and 2 all mail to all federal agencies is irradiated 3 so that very expensive stationary that you 4 have, Mr. Steck, that has the nice, gets 5 fried. 6 And I can tell you that when I, 7 when I read your two page letter I have to 8 peel the first page off the second page. 9 And Judge Coco, who is now 10 deceased, told me that when they go from 11 orange to the next level 12 MR. STECK: Uh-huh and that's 13 ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: 

### 14 stuff just doesn't come. 15 And so we've started doing 16 everything by fax, by e-mail as long as the 17 parties agree I don't care. But it's, it's a 18 reflection of the state that we live in. It's 19 not going to get better. 20 And, you know, the problem, Mr. 21 Steck, is, is the FAA and DOT haven't gotten 22 to the point that I'm sure the civil courts
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1 that you practice in are. 2 My own court everything is done 3 electronically. 

### 4 MR. STECK: Cook County has such a 5 unique system that it's taking them forever 6 to, to get to that point. But the federal 7 courts have. 8 ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: Yeah the 

### 9 federal courts I think are a model and so my 10 practice in Maryland in some of the circuit 11 courts there have done a wonderful job. 12 And I'm trying to remember whether 13 it was Balder City or Balder County that has 14 done that. Other agencies have, this new 15 docketing system is an attempt to deal with 16 the problem is that the regulations which is 17 regulations.gov which is where you go to look 18 is set up for regulatory work. It's not set 

### 19 up for docket. 20 MR. STECK: Right. 21 ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: So. 22 Anyway I commend the two of you on settling

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- 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 26 the case_ You know that I have a reputation for lambasting people who call me at the last minute but Chicago is the exception- I love coming to Chicago_ MR. STECK: Okay. ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: But I understand too that, I've done litigation for 20 years and many times you don't settle the

case until, you know, the day of the case and, and my concern was that when I first started it was apparent to me people weren't picking up the files. I know now that they're going to, the files goes, Judge Bacon and I put the word out. And I commend the two of you for settling the case. After 20 years of practice I always felt that settlement was much better than a, than an opportunity to stand up and show off my skills. So anything else we have, Mr. Brown and Mr. Steck?

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### 1 MR. STECK: Nothing from, no. 2 ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. I 3 

### will try to get an order out. It may not go 4 out until Tuesday. I, I don't have a printer 5 with me. I'll put something together and I'll 6 fax it to your office so that you've got it. 7 

### And as I said if you need to 8 change it because of the holidays submit an 9 order. 10 The other thing, Mr. Brown, in the 11 future in any of my cases if you have an 12 accommodation or an agreement or a procedural 13 issue or a stipulation or anything else

-- 14 MR. BROWN: Right. 15 

### ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN:

-- send 16 me an order

-- 17 MR. BROWN: Draft order? 18 

### ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: I 

### 19 mean that's how I used to practice law, you 20 know, I started, I filed motions with an 21 order. I'm sure you see a lot of that, Mr. 22 Steck.

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### 1 It seems, there seems to be a fear 2 in the work that I do to submit an order and 3 I don't get upset with that. 4 MR. BROWN: 

### It is something that 5 and I, and I had a life before I started 6 working for the FAA in that world yes I did. 7 Everything, you didn't file an order, you 8 know, you had to file, you know, a motion. 9 

### But I, I think with regard to 10 there were in, you know, I practice in six or 11 seven forms as I'm sure you do and you have 12 some that are, you know, how, how are you so 13 presumptuous as to believe that I'm going to 14 grant that order, you know, why are you 15 sending me this motion, you know, this draft 16 order you smart aleck. 17 So as a result you kind of stop 18 

### doing it in all the forms. We do have some 19 judges now that are in some of the forms that 20 are requesting the draft orders. 21 Frankly though I've never seen one 22 of them use one of the draft orders. But, but

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1 no problem. We can, I'll pass that along as 2 well. 3 ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: Yeah, 

### 4 and to all of your colleagues and if I don't 5 like it I'll, you know, litigate it. I just, 6 I do not have this, I've been doing this for 7 probably not as long as Mr. Steck he looks 8 like he's got more lines than I do. 9 How many years have you been 10 practicing? 11 MR. STECK: This is 45. 12 ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: I'm 13 pushing close to, I'm about there. So I 

### 14 don't, I don't get hung up on this stuff. I 15 mean you got something you agree to and, and 16 don't put draft on it. 17 MR. BROWN: Right. 18 ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: I mean 19 send it to me and if I like I'm serious I'll 20 sign it. 21 MR. BROWN: Right. That's fine. I 22 will pass that along.

NEAL R. GROSS
(202) 234·4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005·3701 www.nea!rgross.com30
1 ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: Yeah, 2 okay. Gentlemen, thank you very much. 3 MR. BROWN: Thank you. 4 ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: Have a 5 good day and have a good holiday. 6 MR. BROWN: All right. Thank you 7 sir. 8 (Whereupon, the hearing was 9 concluded at 9:51 a.m.) 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22
NEAL R. GROSS
(202)234·4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com-- 

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24:15 3010:19 Neal R. GrossandCo.,Inc. 202-234-4433**""'~=""-•= ·-~**  

## ·--**~-'·'"**35 CERTIFICATE

This is to certify that the foregoing transcript in the matter of: Skydive Midwest, Inc. V. FAA

Before:

Date:

Place: Department of Transportation Federal Aviation Administration
November 20, 2008

Chicago, Illinois

represents the full and complete proceedings of the aforementioned matter, as reported and reduced to typewriting.

(202)234-4433 Ron LeGrand

NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com