### FEDERAL AVIATION ADMINISTRATION **Small Airplane Directorate**

**Part 23 Reorganization Notice of Proposed Rulemaking** 

**May 4, 2016**
**8:08 a.m.**

**Public Hearing Georgia International Convention Center**  **Atlanta, Georgia**

**REGENCY-BRENTANO, INC. Certified Court Reporting**  **Suite 140 13 Corporate Square**  **Atlanta, Georgia 30329 (404) 321-3333** Page 2 May 4, 2016

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### 1 Attendees: **2 Bill Schinstock Lowell Foster**  **3 Pat Mullen Jeff Pretz**  **4 Jim Brady John Vanhoudt**  **5 Mark James Mike Reyer**  **6 Paul Pellicano**
**7 8**  **9 10**  **11 12**  **13 14**  **15 16**  **17 18**  **19 20**  **21 22**  **23 24**  **25**Page 3 May 4, 2016

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### 1 (Wednesday, May 4, 2016 8:08 a.m.) **2 MR. BILL SCHINSTOCK: Welcome to 3 the second day of the public meeting on the**  **4 part 23 Notice of Proposed Rulemaking. I 5 you could find your seats, we will get**  **6 started. There are a few new faces in the 7 crowd, so I am going to read some of what I**  **8 read yesterday just to give them an idea of 9 the ground rules.**  **10 The purpose of this meeting is to 11 solicit comments and additional information**  **12 from the public on the FAA part 23 Notice of 13 Proposed Rulemaking.**  **14 I would like to introduce some of 15 the FAA people that are here on the panel**  **16 with me. Lowell Foster is the primary 17 engineer on this project. He is in the**  **18 Small Airplane Directorate. In fact, 19 everybody on the panel is from the Small**  **20 Airplane Directorate. 21 Pat Mullen, who is the acting**  **22 manager for the Small Airplane Directorate 23 right now.**  **24 Next to him is Mark James, a 25 structures specialist. And then Jim Brady,** Page 4 May 4, 2016

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### 1 a systems specialist. **2 John Vanhoudt joins us today, he is 3 a propulsion specialist. Paul Pellicano,**  **4 icing specialist; and Mike Reyer, our 5 structures and loads specialist.**  **6 We have a few more people in the 7 audience from the FAA and I am going to give**  **8 them a chance to introduce themselves in a 9 moment, but I am also going to give**  **10 everybody in the audience a chance to 11 introduce yourselves, so be prepared for**  **12 that. We are going to pass the mic around 13 just so everybody knows who is here.**  **14 I would like to acknowledge one FAA 15 employee, Lirio Liu, she is the director of**  **16 the Office of Rulemaking for the FAA and we 17 are very pleased to have Lirio here to help**  **18 us with this process and get this rule 19 through. It is an indication of the**  **20 priority the FAA is putting this rule, so 21 thank you very much, Lirio, for coming.**  **22 So at this time let's pass the mic 23 around.**  **24 MR. RICH ADLER: I am Rich Adler 25 and I am with the FAA here from DC and** Page 5 May 4, 2016

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### 1 representing AIR-111 which is the **2 certification procedures branch. 3 MR. DAVE FAIRBACK: Good morning.**  **4 I am Dave Fairback with the FAA. I recently 5 joined the Small Airplane Directorate**  **6 standard staff for mechanical systems. 7 MR. JEFF PRETZ: My name is Jeff**  **8 Pretz. I am with the Small Airplane 9 Directorate, standards staff propulsion**  **10 specialist. 11 MR. DAVID ARMSTRONG: David**  **12 Armstrong. I am here representing Garmin 13 International.**  **14 MS. RALEN GAO: Ralen Gao, FAA 15 Office of Rulemaking?**  **16 MS. AMY LUBRANO: Amy Lubrano with 17 The Regulatory Group. We support the FAA**  **18 Office of Rulemaking. 19 MR. STEVE THOMPSON: Good morning.**  **20 Steve Thompson, I work in the Small Airplane 21 Directorate standards offices.**  **22 MR. ANDY SAVINI: I am Andy Savini. 23 I am here representing Textron Aviation.**  **24 MR. GEORGE THURSTON: George 25 Thurston representing the FAA. I am the** Page 6 May 4, 2016

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### 1 economist representing the policy office. **2 MR. JEFF WILLIAMS: I am Jeff 3 Williams from Astronautics Corporation.**  **4 MR. BRADY NEWMAN: Brady Newman 5 from Astronautics Corporation.**  **6 MR. STEVE ROSENFELD: I am Steve 7 Rosenfeld, and I represent the National Air**  **8 Traffic Controllers Association union 9 representing the certification employees for**  **10 the FAA. 11 MS. CATHY GAGNE: Cathy Gagne,**  **12 NTSB. 13 MR. BILL BRODEGARD: Bill**  **14 Brodegard, Aspen Avionics. 15 MR. NICK BOGNER: Nick Bogner,**  **16 BendixKing. 17 MR. BEN MORROW: Ben Morrow**  **18 BendixKing. 19 MS. KERRI HINTON: Kerri Hinton,**  **20 Kestrel Aero Aviation. 21 MS. KATIE PATRICK: Katie Patrick,**  **22 FAA. I am an attorney in the Regulations 23 Division.**  **24 MR. BRYAN LONG: Bryan Long, FAA 25 electrical systems.** Page 7 May 4, 2016

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### 1 MR. WELDON WAINRIGHT: Weldon **2 Wainright, Powerplant consultant and the 3 DER.**  **4 MS. LIRIO LIU: Good morning. 5 Lirio Liu, Office of Rulemaking.**  **6 I did want to just add that I 7 appreciate everyone's participation and I**  **8 just want to make a point that with the FAA 9 in our rulemaking program, this is one of**  **10 the priorities that we are working on. I am 11 happy to be here and really wanted to have**  **12 the public meeting so that we can get the 13 comments so that we can try and analyze the**  **14 comments as quickly as possible to expedite 15 the rule. And we know that it is something**  **16 that the industry is looking forward, I 17 think, also within our organization and so**  **18 that is really where we are putting our 19 focus right now, so thank you for being**  **20 here. 21 MR. GEORGE UHRIN: George Uhrin,**  **22 Aviation Services. 23 MR. JUSTIN BARKOWSKI: Justin**  **24 Barkowski, AOPA. 25 MR. CARLOS AYALA: Carlos Ayala,** Page 8 May 4, 2016

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### 1 Honda Aircraft. **2 MR. GREG BOWLES: Greg Bowles with 3 GAMA.**  **4 MR. STEVE JOSEPH: Steve Joseph, 5 Genesys Aerosystems.**  **6 MR. MITCH HUFFMAN: Mitch Huffman, 7 FAA Atlanta ACO, electrical system.**  **8 MR. RIC PERI: Ric Peri, Aircraft 9 Electronics Association.**  **10 MR. RANDY GRIFFITH: Randy 11 Griffith, Mooney.**  **12 MR. SAUL MAROOF: Saul Maroof, 13 Aircraft Certification Service, Washington,**  **14 DC. 15 MS. PRISCILLA STEWARD: Priscilla**  **16 Steward, FAA Production Certification 17 branch, Washington, DC.**  **18 MR. ANSEL JAMES: Good morning my 19 name is Ansel James and I am an engineer**  **20 with the Propulsion Branch of the Atlanta 21 Airfield.**  **22 MS. CINDY LORENZEN: Cindy 23 Lorenzen, and I am a program manager here at**  **24 the Atlanta ACO. 25 MS. LIZ CORY: Liz Cory, office of** Page 9 May 4, 2016

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### 1 communications with the FAA. **2 MS. JENNIFER KILEO: Jennifer 3 Kileo, FAA Small Airplane Directorate,**  **4 communications commercial list. 5 MR. DAVID KESSLER: David Kessler,**  **6 directorate counsel, FAA. 7 MR. BILL SCHINSTOCK: Thank you, I**  **8 don't think we missed anybody, have we? 9 Okay, that is it.**  **10 We are here to facilitate 11 discussions and to provide clarifying**  **12 information so that we may develop as a 13 complete and useful record of these**  **14 proceedings as possible. Any comments 15 questions or statements made by the panel**  **16 members during the course this meeting 17 should not be taken as expressing a final**  **18 FAA position. That final position will be 19 represented in the final rule and preamble**  **20 to that rule. We will consider comments 21 made here by the public before making a**  **22 final decision on the issuance of the final 23 rule. Those comments will be dispositioned**  **24 in the final rule. 25 The proceedings are being** Page 10 May 4, 2016

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### 1 transcribed by a Court Reporter. A verbatim **2 transcript of this meeting will be available 3 after May 15th, 2016. The information on**  **4 how to get that will be at the -- on the 5 docket, but we will publish a copy of the**  **6 full transcript in the public docket. 7 People wishing to make a comment or**  **8 ask a question should be recognized by the 9 panel and we would ask you to step up to the**  **10 microphone and please speak loudly. We have 11 on the phone a group of foreign authorities**  **12 that are listening to this -- these 13 proceedings so they could hear the comments**  **14 as well and it is hard for them to pick it 15 up, so, please, when you approach the mic,**  **16 please speak slowly and clearly and loudly. 17 We would appreciate that.**  **18 As I said, the proceedings are 19 being transcribed and will be placed on the**  **20 docket. The number -- the docket number for 21 this project is FAA-2015-1621. That is**  **22 FAA-2015-1621. And if you have not 23 registered yet outside, we would ask to you**  **24 please sign your name and your affiliation 25 and your (e)-mail address so we can send out** Page 11 May 4, 2016

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### 1 information if we need to relative to this **2 meeting. 3 At this time I will open the floor**  **4 to see if everybody has any comments or 5 questions about the proceedings yesterday**  **6 before we proceed on today. 7 So at this point if anybody has a**  **8 question, please let me know. If not, we 9 will move on to Subpart (f), electrical**  **10 systems, and Jim Brady will present that 11 section. Thank you.**  **12 MR. JIM BRADY: Good morning. I am 13 Jim Brady and will be covering Subpart (f),**  **14 electrical systems. Can everyone hear me 15 because I know that we had trouble with the**  **16 mic yesterday so -- okay. 17 Subpart (f), when we reviewed the**  **18 original or the current rules, we believed 19 that the prescriptive language in those**  **20 rules were not necessarily relevant to the 21 change in technology that we are currently**  **22 seeing. The rules were written based on the 23 technology available at the time the rule**  **24 was written. And although appropriate for 25 legacy technology, it may not be adequate or** Page 12 May 4, 2016

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### 1 efficient for new technologies to be **2 introduced. We want to facilitate the 3 introduction of new safety-enhancing systems**  **4 into the system. We consolidated the 5 language to maintain the safety requirements**  **6 for the traditional designs and attempted to 7 allow flexibility for new technologies over**  **8 time. As an example, in the 1300 rules, we 9 took 37 rules and consolidated them down to**  **10 eight. The 1300 rule should be -- or was 11 intended to be at an aircraft level, broken**  **12 down into two basic parts: The first for 13 required equipment as dictated by the**  **14 operating rules, and the second for 15 non-required equipment that is**  **16 safety-enhancing. It contains portions of 17 16 current rules can be found in the**  **18 language embedded in this one rule. 19 MR. DAVID ARMSTRONG: David**  **20 Armstrong from Garmin. The comment we have 21 is on part (b) and it's clearly outside the**  **22 contents in this rule for the operation of a 23 system and not affecting anything else but**  **24 we think the failure part ought to be left 25 to the rule that replaces 1309. We don't** Page 13 May 4, 2016

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### 1 think that the "or failure" should be part **2 of this regulation. 3 MR. JIM BRADY: Thank you for that**  **4 comment. And, again, if we can add that to 5 the written comments, we would appreciate**  **6 that as well. 7 The new proposed 1305 is more at**  **8 the equipment level. You know, this is the 9 exact same words where, you know, "must**  **10 perform its intended function" so things do 11 still have to work. That was one of the**  **12 questions that was brought up in an earlier 13 comment when we were writing the rules.**  **14 And, again, there is about 16 rules that 15 were collapsed into that one. Questions.**  **16 MR. GREG BOWLES: Greg Bowles from 17 GAMA. Thanks for the opportunity to ask a**  **18 question here, Jim. So 1305 would apply to 19 all equipment as it's written per 1300**  **20 before. There is a difference in the way 21 that required and non-required equipment is**  **22 treated -- required and non-required systems 23 are treated. We would prefer that this**  **24 section applied to required equipment so 25 that non-required equipment could be more of** Page 14 May 4, 2016

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### 1 a market-driven issue as it's unnecessary **2 for safety. And we would assure that it, in 3 operation, was not unsafe through 1300. And**  **4 as David mentioned a second ago, we assured 5 that through failure it was safe through**  **6 1315, but its function would not be 7 regulated as long as it's safe.**  **8 MR. JIM BRADY: Thank you. 9 David, did you have another?**  **10 MR. DAVID ARMSTRONG: The other 11 remaining item that we have is the item (c),**  **12 the word presentation, we would suggest that 13 it has to be provided on an indicator or**  **14 display whereas in the past things that are 15 inherent like buffet may have been**  **16 acceptable. The word presentation could be 17 interpreted to include that.**  **18 MR. JIM BRADY: Thank you. Any 19 additional comments or questions?**  **20 1310, flight navigation and 21 powerplant instruments has been collapsed**  **22 into this rule. It came from eight 23 different previous rules. You know, we**  **24 do -- the FAA believes that standardization 25 is important but the standardization that we** Page 15 May 4, 2016

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### 1 previously had, based on traditional **2 designs, created barriers or perceived 3 barriers for new technologies and potential**  **4 new ways of displaying needed information, 5 so this should allow more flexibility.**  **6 Any questions? 7 MR. STEVE JOSEPH: Steve Joseph**  **8 with Genesys Aerosystems. In item (a)(1) it 9 includes trends now, and trends were**  **10 previously only covered in guidance 11 material. You can see that it's talking**  **12 about "as needed." Well, that is very 13 subjective. We are concerned that having**  **14 trends included in the regulation rather 15 than in guidance material will lead to a lot**  **16 more trends being required than are truly 17 needed.**  **18 The other comment is in regard to 19 subparagraph -- subitem (b), and this also**  **20 was previously covered only in guidance 21 material. We feel it's a bit prescriptive**  **22 and being as a regulation now could stifle 23 future innovation and alternate ways of, you**  **24 know, taking care of this particular item. 25 MR. JIM BRADY: Thank you. And,** Page 16 May 4, 2016

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### 1 again, it would be helpful if you would also **2 capture that in written comments. 3 1315, this is the old 1309. And**  **4 again, it has been pared down to what we 5 believe is the essential safety intent. The**  **6 first part would require an engineering 7 safety analysis and the second part**  **8 maintains an inverse relationship between 9 the probability of failures and those**  **10 consequences. 11 Any comments?**  **12 MR. GREG BOWLES: Greg Bowles with 13 GAMA again. So two comments on this**  **14 section: The first comment is that 23.1315, 15 formerly mostly 1309, it's really important**  **16 that we coordinate very well this rule with 17 the ASA. The ASA has indicated through**  **18 their MPA a difference of approach in 19 including a correspondence table which also**  **20 included a second table that spoke to the 21 likelihood versus the failure level.**  **22 So if that is captured in guidance 23 or if that is captured in the rule is an**  **24 issue of debate. However, what is most 25 important is that we have the same path** Page 17 May 4, 2016

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### 1 between the key authorities so that is a **2 very important issue. 3 The second point is that this rule**  **4 would be better served if it included a 5 provision that would allow for evaluation of**  **6 the level of risk of significantly 7 safety-enhancing equipment. So if there**  **8 were potentially a part (c) that the FAA 9 could allow changes to this rule based on**  **10 significantly safety-enhancing equipment. 11 MR. LOWELL FOSTER: I guess a**  **12 clarifying question, you said the risk of 13 safety-enhancing, but you talked about the**  **14 benefits. Could you elaborate on that a 15 little bit?**  **16 MR. GREG BOWLES: Sure. For 17 example, the FAA put out a policy of angle**  **18 of attack recently, and angle of attack 19 could have a failure mode which might**  **20 mislead a pilot during the landing. It 21 might have the wrong speed. That could be a**  **22 major hazard potentially. If -- there is 23 still a certified stall warning to back up**  **24 which would prevent the catastrophic issue. 25 Typically that AOA would not be** Page 18 May 4, 2016

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### 1 allowed to be installed without going **2 through software and analysis of that 3 device, but because we suffer so many loss**  **4 of control accidents, we know that the 5 installation of that device would save a lot**  **6 of lives, so the FAA has written a policy 7 that has seen through, we will save X number**  **8 of lives for every installation and the 9 failure is unlikely even without the**  **10 substantiations that will allow it, so this 11 kind of mentality, allowing substantially**  **12 safety-enhancing technology into the 13 aircraft without the added cost of going**  **14 through some of the typical software and 15 electronic hardware evaluation, is**  **16 beneficial, we would like to make sure this 17 rule has the ability to do that.**  **18 MR. JIM BRADY: If I understand it 19 correctly, what you are saying is this --**  **20 your interpretation of this current rule, 21 it's two dimensional with failure versus**  **22 consequence. You would like to see a three 23 dimensional failure, consequence and risk?**  **24 MR. GREG BOWLES: Yes. And I think 25 that third dimension needs to be based on** Page 19 May 4, 2016

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### 1 the FAA's determination of how substantial **2 the safety benefit is for that equipment. 3 So maybe the third dimension is only**  **4 exercised for substantial safety-benefitting 5 equipment.**  **6 MR. JIM BRADY: Thank you. 7 MR. DAVID ARMSTRONG: David**  **8 Armstrong, Garmin. I would like to echo 9 what Greg said. Additionally, I would like**  **10 to ask the consideration of the following: 11 Usually under 1309 we have addressed failure**  **12 conditions, and it's not clear why we 13 suddenly switched in (a) to addressing**  **14 failures, which is not the same thing as a 15 failure condition. Was there an intended**  **16 difference there that we should take? 17 MR. JIM BRADY: We will have to go**  **18 back to the foundation of that and study it 19 and take your comment and make sure of the**  **20 words we want to use for the specific 21 meaning.**  **22 MR. DAVID ARMSTRONG: Okay. Thank 23 you.**  **24 MR. JIM BRADY: Any additional 25 comments or questions? 1320 is the proposed** Page 20 May 4, 2016

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### 1 version of the current 1306 dealing with **2 lightning. 3 MR. NICK BOGNER: Yes, I have a**  **4 question. Nick from BendixKing. 5 On Section (a)(1) and (a)(2) it**  **6 discusses the continues -- function 7 continues to perform during and after the**  **8 exposure and then in (a)(2) it talks about 9 recovering. Can you describe and clarify a**  **10 little bit what the intent is with respect 11 to what it means to continue to perform?**  **12 Kind of what is the -- I have some theories 13 of my own, but is there a degraded mode? Is**  **14 there some other level of perform once that 15 is normal?**  **16 MR. JIM BRADY: The intent in the 17 rule -- let me find the exact -- as stated**  **18 in (a)(1), the intent is that the airplane 19 system level, that that information**  **20 provided, must be available so the pilot can 21 use it in a timely manner so when it**  **22 continues to perform it can't, you know, be 23 lost --**  **24 MR. NICK BOGNER: Okay. So then on 25 (2) --** Page 21 May 4, 2016

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### 1 MR. JIM BRADY: -- at the airplane **2 level. 3 MR. NICK BOGNER: At the airplane**  **4 level. And then when you discuss the 5 automatically recovering aspect of that, is**  **6 that recovering from what? 7 I guess it depends on what (a)(1)**  **8 allows as far as it maybe not at the system 9 level or if there is some subcategory. Does**  **10 that make sense? Does that question make 11 sense?**  **12 MR. JIM BRADY: Your question -- I 13 understand the foundation of your question**  **14 and I think that we will have to provide 15 additional guidance on that at a later date.**  **16 MR. NICK BOGNER: Because I can 17 imagine accuracy might be different or some**  **18 kind of degraded mode so what I took off of 19 is (a)(2), and I wanted to understand, if**  **20 there is some -- you know, some recovery 21 mode from what would be really helpful. And**  **22 the standards can cover a lot of that, but 23 just the fundamental of what the intent is**  **24 would be great. 25 MR. JIM BRADY: So you need better** Page 22 May 4, 2016

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### 1 clarification on these two points? **2 MR. NICK BOGNER: The difference in 3 (1) and (2) and what number (2) would be**  **4 recovering from if there is some level of 5 degraded mode or something, that is being**  **6 recovered from, that would be acceptable by 7 (a)(1).**  **8 MR. JIM BRADY: Okay. And just to 9 restate what you are asking: On 1320 you**  **10 believe there is more clarification needed 11 on some of the details embedded in this**  **12 rule. 13 MR. NICK BOGNER: Correct. And I**  **14 will submit a couple better worded comments 15 formally.**  **16 MR. JIM BRADY: Thank you. 17 MR. GREG BOWLES: Jim, a slightly**  **18 higher level question -- Greg Bowles from 19 GAMA -- on 23.1320. It currently applies to**  **20 airplanes approved for IFR operations. 21 In light of some of the**  **22 interpretations that the FAA has taken 23 recently in some installations, perhaps IFR**  **24 operations is not the right discriminator 25 for aircraft that are likely to be exposed** Page 23 May 4, 2016

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### 1 to lightning for this kind of system. And **2 perhaps the FAA could select a different 3 type of discriminator such as scale or size**  **4 or risk of the aircraft. 5 MR. JIM BRADY: And I believe a**  **6 similar comment was made on another rule 7 yesterday --**  **8 MR. GREG BOWLES: Correct, yes. 9 MR. JIM BRADY: -- so we will take**  **10 that comment and, you know, try to figure 11 out if there is a better term or which**  **12 direction we want to take. Thank you. 13 MR. DAVID ARMSTRONG: David**  **14 Armstrong for Garmin. We believe that the 15 wording in (a)(1) and (a)(2) is actually a**  **16 means of compliance. The rule should be 17 stepped back to a higher level, what the**  **18 rule should be worried about is 19 preventing -- that certain failure**  **20 conditions don't occur under the exposure to 21 lightning, whether it be hazardous,**  **22 catastrophic or major. If the system is not 23 essential and has minor consequences, there**  **24 is absolutely no reason why it should not 25 need to -- we realize the way that (a) is** Page 24 May 4, 2016

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### 1 worded that it's -- the -- it says that it **2 should provide safe flight and landing, but 3 we have had the issues in the past with the**  **4 ACO and the interpretation of that. 5 Secondly, the system level**  **6 function, we have had issues with the 7 definition of what is the system. For**  **8 example, the system level function of a 9 private altitude indicator and a standby**  **10 analysis indicator, we would argue that they 11 are all the same function and that only one**  **12 of them needs to recover. Whereas we have 13 had interpretations in the past where the**  **14 ACO has said that they are both independent 15 systems and that they both must recover.**  **16 Thank you. 17 MR. JIM BRADY: Thank you. Any**  **18 additional comments? 19 1325 --**  **20 MR. PAT MULLEN: Again, Pat Mullen 21 from the Small Airplane Directorate.**  **22 Jim, on 1320 I am not really a 23 systems person so I notice that there has**  **24 been a lot of comments on (a)(1) and (a)(2). 25 Can you perhaps step through an example of a** Page 25 May 4, 2016

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### 1 particular system on what your expectation **2 is? That would probably help me and the 3 rest of the folks in the audience who really**  **4 do not have a systems background. We would 5 like a scenario or something or a particular**  **6 reason of what -- 7 MR. JIM BRADY: One of the proposed**  **8 changes in this rule and some of the words 9 that we used were addressing it to the**  **10 systems level. It is difficult at times to 11 draw a box around what is a system and what**  **12 is not. Do you have multiple systems? Do 13 you have one system?**  **14 The intent was to look at what is 15 the total way you get a prescribed piece of**  **16 information, let's say, attitude. And so 17 the system to provide attitude could be the**  **18 partial panel and the attitude indicator and 19 a standby indicator. All three of those are**  **20 the system that provide attitude. And as a 21 critical function, when exposed to**  **22 lightning, you still needed to have the 23 function of attitude, which means you could**  **24 degrade that system, hence, lose the standby 25 or the primary but not the total ability at** Page 26 May 4, 2016

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### 1 the aircraft level to see or have -- not **2 have the information for attitude. 3 Is that -- that was the intent and**  **4 the question to the public is, does that 5 come across adequately? And as some**  **6 comments here today indicate, we need to 7 evaluate that and we would appreciate**  **8 additional written comments. 9 Ric?**  **10 MR. RIC PERI: Ric Peri with 11 Aircraft Electronics Association. I**  **12 appreciate the explanation. My area of 13 concern is that, as we know under Part 26,**  **14 the aircraft wiring is now a system, and the 15 confusion could be pretty dramatic when this**  **16 generation that rewrote the rule has retired 17 and we rely on the next generation to be**  **18 able to interpret it. So clarity here is 19 going to be exceptionally critical.**  **20 MR. JIM BRADY: Thank you. Any 21 additional comments?**  **22 MR. NICK BOGNER: Your example 23 really helped my question, so thank you.**  **24 MR. JIM BRADY: Thank you. Moving 25 on to the proposed 1325, which is a rewrite** Page 27 May 4, 2016

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### 1 of the current 1308. **2 And I will let you read it instead 3 of reading it myself and ask for any**  **4 comments or questions. 5 This is very similar to 1320 and I**  **6 would assume some of the previous comments 7 would apply here if anybody would like to**  **8 verify that. 9 MR. DAVID ARMSTRONG: David**  **10 Armstrong with Garmin. Yes, absolutely the 11 comments that we provided against the**  **12 lightning rule would for the most part apply 13 here. We believe that the rule at the**  **14 moment proposes a means of compliance and 15 should be changed to address the prevention**  **16 of failure conditions as opposed to exactly 17 how you prevent that failure condition.**  **18 Thank you. 19 MR. JIM BRADY: Any additional**  **20 comments? 21 MR. GREG BOWLES: So to start with,**  **22 Jim -- Greg from GAMA -- we would also make 23 the same comments about the discriminator**  **24 for IFR, again, for evaluation. 25 The second question has to do with** Page 28 May 4, 2016

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### 1 the new technology coming along of electric **2 propulsion, hybrid and electric propulsion. 3 Those aircraft have been shown to have**  **4 unique fields that may need special 5 attention, so it may be something to**  **6 consider as we rewrite this rule. 7 MR. JIM BRADY: Thank you.**  **8 MR. BERNIE NEWMAN: Bernie Newman, 9 Astronautics. While this rule is very**  **10 similar to the previous one, the previous 11 one applied it to IFR equipment. This one**  **12 here starts by (a)(1) and (a)(2) are 13 apparently applicable to VFR or IFR, only**  **14 the (b) is IFR. Was that intentional? 15 MR. JIM BRADY: That was**  **16 intentional based on the risk of the two 17 environmental phenomena. Any additional**  **18 comments? 19 1330. This took five current rules**  **20 and collapsed it into the one, and it's the 21 system power generation, storage, and**  **22 distribution. Any comments on that? 23 MR. GREG BOWLES: Jim, Greg Bowles**  **24 from GAMA. 23.1330 (c)(1) and (c)(2) -- 25 (c)(1) specifically would require 30 minutes** Page 29 May 4, 2016

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### 1 of power for the critical systems from **2 maximum altitude of 25,000 feet or less, so 3 basically any aircraft would have to have 30**  **4 minutes of backup power. There are 5 conceivably electric aircraft coming along**  **6 that would not fly higher than 10,000 feet. 7 Some may fly far lower. They would never be**  **8 able to run without propulsion for anywhere 9 near 30 minutes.**  **10 To allow those aircraft to get some 11 footing and still operate safely in the**  **12 environment over the next couple of years 13 until longer run times are possible, it**  **14 would be preferable to have a more 15 performance-based (c)(1) for those aircraft.**  **16 (C)(2), performance-based would be 17 preferable, however between 25,000 and up**  **18 higher, it's conceivable you could run in 19 traditional aircraft longer.**  **20 MR. JIM BRADY: So your comment, to 21 just clarify, is specifically at the**  **22 prescriptive 30 minutes? 23 MR. GREG BOWLES: Yeah, I think the**  **24 concern, exactly -- the concern is that 25 there are many aircraft that would not be** Page 30 May 4, 2016

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### 1 able to glide from -- so electric aircraft, **2 for example, once it loses electric power, 3 would no longer be making thrusts so it**  **4 would be gliding, so it would not be capable 5 of flight for 30 minutes after the loss of**  **6 power; and, therefore, carrying an 7 additional 30 minutes of certification of**  **8 power that could not be used in typical 9 circumstances would be unnecessary.**  **10 MR. JIM BRADY: I understand. What 11 you're basically saying with potential new**  **12 technologies the 30 minutes may be longer 13 than --**  **14 MR. GREG BOWLES: The aircraft can 15 fly.**  **16 MR. JIM BRADY: -- the aircraft 17 could ever conceivably stay in the air after**  **18 certain failure mode? 19 MR. GREG BOWLES: Correct. Yes.**  **20 And so in those cases, just for the utility 21 of the aircraft, it would be nice not to**  **22 have to store unusable energy at that level. 23 MR. JIM BRADY: Thank you. I think**  **24 that we have a question here. 25 MR. PAT MULLEN: So, Greg, let me** Page 31 May 4, 2016

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### 1 just -- so (c)(1) and (c)(2) are actually -- **2 they are part of Amendment 62 when we 3 updated part 23 to account for jets. And in**  **4 this particular language, Jim and I had a 5 lot of conversations several years ago**  **6 during that rule because we struggled making 7 it performance-based. And so we just**  **8 picked -- you know, we just picked this and 9 that so I guess my comment, Greg, is if you**  **10 could offer suggestive performance-based 11 language in your comments, that would**  **12 probably -- because this is one that we kind 13 of struggled with going all the way back to**  **14 amendment (d)(2)? 15 MR. GREG BOWLES: Yes, I appreciate**  **16 that. And just to elaborate, my comments on 17 (c)(1) in the context of a traditional**  **18 powerplant, that would continue to run after 19 a power failure would make sense and will**  **20 probably continue to fly for a period of 21 time to make a safe landing.**  **22 But in aircraft coming along that 23 are purely electric, you are taking energy**  **24 up with you so once that energy is depleted, 25 the aircraft no longer flies and it becomes** Page 32 May 4, 2016

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### 1 a glider. So once we reach a point where **2 the aircraft is no longer producing thrust, 3 having 30 minutes of critical systems is not**  **4 necessary because you will probably -- if 5 these aircraft were at 5,000 feet or**  **6 10,000-foot ceilings -- would probably be in 7 the air for ten minutes at the most.**  **8 MR. NICK BOGNER: So I was going to 9 comment on the same point and to touch on**  **10 what Greg said because, while he cited a 11 great example of this, I want to make a**  **12 philosophical comment, which was, we can 13 cite those examples, but if we had the**  **14 safety intent clearly stated a 15 requirement -- a standard, another content**  **16 for the airplanes of the future could vary 17 directly, you know -- and the FAA could very**  **18 explicitly accept or not accept certain 19 standards to apply to different types of**  **20 aircraft for appropriate use. 21 So it's the safety intent and,**  **22 hopefully, the language we can craft would 23 be something to the extent like other safety**  **24 intent drivers where you would -- you know, 25 adequate energy to power the system for, you** Page 33 May 4, 2016

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### 1 know, appropriate amount of time -- and we **2 can find the words but that's -- there is 3 other places, you know, the prescriptive**  **4 piece again. 5 So instead of using a good example**  **6 about something like this, we should focus 7 on getting the language such that any**  **8 example, even that we can't think about, 9 could transcend time, but we can transcend**  **10 time with the language and accomplish the 11 same -- the same safety tests because there**  **12 is going to be an opportunity to accept the 13 standard of varying types in the future. So**  **14 I just want to make that top level 15 philosophical point because I think that**  **16 that is vital to getting all those parts 17 right.**  **18 MR. JIM BRADY: Thank you very 19 much. And as I stated when I started, you**  **20 know, that was our intent to try to remove 21 as much prescriptive design-based,**  **22 technology-based out of the rule as we 23 could. And we would welcome additional**  **24 proposed language in these areas. 25 MR. RANDY GRIFFITH: Randy** Page 34 May 4, 2016

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### 1 Griffith, Mooney. I do know before the **2 60-minute requirement was put in, and ASA 3 has done it also, and you also might want**  **4 look at some past -- and also some issues 5 facing the FAA where they have actually**  **6 allowed demonstration if that time 7 requirement is necessary. So maybe put a**  **8 codicil in and we'll provide it as comments 9 that, unless you demonstrate otherwise,**  **10 something to that effect. But I know EASA 11 and -- and this is a position that the FAA**  **12 would allow that and that was mainly geared 13 around before the 60-minute requirement was**  **14 put in, and should a 60-minute requirement 15 be put in for certain aircraft, so...**  **16 MR. JIM BRADY: Thank you, I was 17 writing down a note on what you said.**  **18 Ric? 19 MR. RIC PERI: Ric Peri with AEA.**  **20 A couple of things: One is that it's pretty 21 clear that 1330 is about the traditional**  **22 aircraft electrical system. Clearly Greg's 23 point is that while we worked real hard**  **24 to -- and I say "we" because I was part of 25 the ARC -- worked real hard to address the** Page 35 May 4, 2016

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### 1 ability to modernize new technology and **2 everything else, we spent 10 years on this. 3 Clearly we have a whole new propulsion**  **4 system that may not be adequately addressed. 5 Clearly this should be excluding propulsion**  **6 systems. Okay. This is about the 7 aircraft-based system, not the propulsion**  **8 system. 9 I don't know that we really**  **10 modernized the regulation to address that 11 technology. The other place that that seems**  **12 was in yesterday when we were talking at the 13 very beginning at the level of aircraft.**  **14 Where does UAS fit into this? Is it the 15 level 1 at O-1 passengers or, I mean, how**  **16 does that fit into it? But the reality is 17 that the vast majority of remotely piloted**  **18 vehicles or unmanned would be within part 23 19 and I am not sure that the regulation really**  **20 addresses that, so I would encourage the 21 agency to make sure that we are not ten**  **22 years behind the time as we move forward 23 here.**  **24 The other thing is that with (c)(1) 25 and (2) -- and I appreciate the logic that** Page 36 May 4, 2016

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### 1 we have talked about. The maximum altitude **2 is a bit of a challenge because we have a 3 service ceiling and then we have a cruise**  **4 ceiling. And the intent here is really 5 talking about a cruise ceiling, not about a**  **6 service ceiling because it's about getting 7 down, right? And the service ceiling has**  **8 caused problems elsewhere, particularly in 9 the EASA and with Europe, where aircraft**  **10 that typically, you know, cruise well below 11 that are still being held to the 25,000-foot**  **12 mark kind of thing. So take a look at that 13 maximum altitude and actually have it**  **14 defined what it is you are talking about. 15 Is it the maximum cruise altitude or is it**  **16 literally the service ceiling? 17 MR. JIM BRADY: Thank you for that**  **18 comment. 19 Any additional questions or**  **20 comments? 21 The proposed 1335 covers external**  **22 and cockpit lighting. There were 11 former 23 rules or current rules that were collapsed**  **24 into this one. 25 Greg?** Page 37 May 4, 2016

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### 1 MR. GREG BOWLES: Yeah, Jim, Greg **2 Bowles from GAMA. Comment on 23.1335(e), 3 first a general comment to 1335. I**  **4 appreciate that a lot of language and a lot 5 of detail has been well-consolidated in this**  **6 rule. We would recommend the removal of 7 1335(e), which is not an aircraft safety of**  **8 flight issue but is a maritime issue. In 9 the US this is something regulated by the**  **10 Coast Guard. It is a boat at rest in a 11 harbor. It is no longer an aircraft and,**  **12 therefore, it would be required in the US by 13 the Coast Guard to have an anchor light and**  **14 that is something that would be well under 15 the purview of the Coast Guard and not**  **16 something that the FAA needs to regulate. 17 It's not necessarily problematic, but it's**  **18 just unnecessary. 19 MR. JIM BRADY: Thank you. Any**  **20 additional comments? 21 1400. This was intended to capture**  **22 the safety intent of 1411 -- or the current 23 1411 and 1415 on safety equipment and**  **24 ditching equipment. 25 Any comments on this?** Page 38 May 4, 2016

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### 1 1405; I am going to have Paul **2 Pellicano address this one. 3 MR. PAUL PELLICANO: Good morning.**  **4 Paul Pellicano. 1405 replaces 1419, flight 5 in icing conditions. It's only required for**  **6 airplanes that are seeking certification for 7 flight in icing. The paragraph (a)(1)**  **8 basically if you take the existing 1419 9 requirements and it's really consolidated**  **10 into one performance-based sentence and that 11 is that first sentence there. If you**  **12 remember yesterday, we talked about taking 13 the performance requirements that are**  **14 currently in 1419(a) and putting them into 15 Subpart (b). We are -- the current 1419(b)**  **16 we removed because, if you look at the 17 current 1419(b) it just lists means of**  **18 compliance. That is all it does. So it's 19 more appropriate for a means of compliance.**  **20 The current paragraph (c) requires 21 a means of detection for critical icing**  **22 regions. We decided that that was in 23 compliance too. And there is an example**  **24 where new technology is basically requiring 25 us to look at things differently. So, for** Page 39 May 4, 2016

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### 1 example, on part 23 where we are looking **2 at -- in fact, today we are certifying 3 airplanes with primary ice detectors in**  **4 which the pilot is not even required to look 5 out the window to determine if he is**  **6 creating ice, that is how robust these 7 systems are.**  **8 But if you remember, he is still 9 required to look -- we are still required,**  **10 based on 230, to determine if he is outside 11 of the Appendix C conditions. And right now**  **12 there is no technology for that. We are 13 still relying on visual cues but that is**  **14 covered under 230, what we talked about 15 yesterday.**  **16 Also, too, the current icing 17 requirements for windshields in 775,**  **18 airspeed, and static pressure systems in 19 1323 and 1325 are now -- would be -- we**  **20 envision them being included in the means of 21 compliance for (a)(1).**  **22 And as far as the requirements for 23 the icing conditions for which the applicant**  **24 is seeking certification, so that would be 25 Appendix C and would also include, if an** Page 40 May 4, 2016

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### 1 applicant is seeking to fly in large fog **2 conditions, which we talked about yesterday, 3 which we really are talking about freezing**  **4 drizzle and freezing rain, the applicant 5 would have to show that the airplane can fly**  **6 in those conditions only if the RCT can fly 7 in those conditions.**  **8 We also envision the means of 9 compliance to cover ice crystals for high**  **10 performance airplanes. So high performance, 11 by definition, would be airplanes over 250**  **12 knots, but we also envision that it would 13 also be high altitude. And I don't know if**  **14 you guys are familiar with having -- we are 15 having mostly on the transport side, but**  **16 flying in convective -- around convective 17 weather in the maritime environment where a**  **18 pilot does not see anything on his radar but 19 he is flying in ice crystals and these ice**  **20 crystals are causing some issues with pitot 21 probes. And when we get to the Subpart (d)**  **22 we will talk about what they are doing to 23 engines.**  **24 And, of course, (a)(2) is -- the 25 target of (a)(2) and the intent of (a)(2) is** Page 41 May 4, 2016

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### 1 to cover certain modifications on existing **2 airplanes. And the requirement there is 3 when the autopilot is engaged that the**  **4 system provide lower speed of warning. And 5 the target there is older airplanes in which**  **6 stall warnings -- the airplane had a stall 7 warning system, but buffet was used as a**  **8 means of stall warning in icing conditions. 9 Paragraph (b) specifies that those**  **10 two are addressed in Appendix C. We had 11 some internal comments, what "demonstrate"**  **12 means. Demonstrate does not necessarily 13 apply to flight tests. It could be**  **14 analysis. 15 Let's see, and I think that that is**  **16 it. 17 Any comments or questions? Okay.**  **18 Thank you very much. 19 MR. DAVID ARMSTRONG: I have one.**  **20 David Armstrong from Garmin. The 21 clarification you made at the end is**  **22 important because the way that we have 23 always had the rules enforced to us that had**  **24 the word demonstration, the ACO almost 25 always insisted that that meant that you had** Page 42 May 4, 2016

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### 1 to perform it on an airplane. **2 MR. PAUL PELLICANO: Yes. Yes. 3 And you probably know, we are doing that now**  **4 in some current airplanes through an issue 5 paper and we have a means for compliance**  **6 that does not necessarily involve flight 7 testing.**  **8 MR. DAVID ARMSTRONG: Okay. Thank 9 you.**  **10 MR. JIM BRADY: 1410 is on 11 pressurized systems, and it collapsed the**  **12 former or the current 1435, 1437 and 1438 13 into this one rule. Greg?**  **14 MR. GREG BOWLES: 23.1410 discusses 15 the term "burst" and "element" and those are**  **16 terms well used and well understood in the 17 industry. I don't believe they are defined**  **18 in the regulations. We do define 19 ultimate -- ultimate strength and limit**  **20 strength or ultimate load, limit load, but I 21 don't think we discuss burst and what was**  **22 the other term I used? Ultimate and burst. 23 Okay. Thank you.**  **24 MR. DAVID ARMSTRONG: David 25 Armstrong with Garmin. Our comment is we** Page 43 May 4, 2016

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### 1 believe this rule is -- really does not **2 follow the whole intent of going to the 3 safety objective rule. It's very**  **4 prescriptive and really contains a means of 5 compliance where we think that it should be**  **6 simplified to what is the safety intent 7 behind the values that are chosen here.**  **8 MR. JIM BRADY: Thank you. 9 Any additional comments?**  **10 1457, the CVR rule is coming across 11 as is. Part of the reason is that this rule**  **12 is so intertwined with so many other parts 13 of the regulations that it was extremely**  **14 difficult to decouple it. 15 Any comments on this rule?**  **16 MR. NICK BOGNER: A general 17 comment, I started writing notes and then I**  **18 just stopped writing because there were so 19 many. So the prescriptive nature of it is**  **20 just completely missing, so I feel like we 21 are almost there with many of these**  **22 different sections and then this one goes 23 off the rails with respect to prescriptive**  **24 solution and specification. 25 You know, one of the ways that is** Page 44 May 4, 2016

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### 1 bad is that it also seems very binary, so if **2 voice recording is required, then you got to 3 do it all this way, so it just has that**  **4 general statement at the top. And that, 5 again, feels wrong because there will be**  **6 different types of different levels, I would 7 say, of voice recording and then there will**  **8 also be different ways of voice recording. 9 Why do we need an orange or yellow box**  **10 somewhere? And the voice recorders of the 11 future might look very different and we**  **12 would be actually sacrificing integrity and 13 quality and recovery of that because we have**  **14 those other constraints that would, A, make 15 it more expensive and, (b), make it less**  **16 technology efficient and reliable because, 17 again, you can imagine all kinds of methods**  **18 that would be even better than this and it 19 would prevent us from using those methods,**  **20 so very, very prescriptive. And it seems -- 21 you know, even channels and probes,**  **22 discussions like that, just seems very wrong 23 for that.**  **24 So, again, let's state the safety 25 intent, what are we trying to accomplish?** Page 45 May 4, 2016

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### 1 And, again, this is a beautiful area where a **2 standard can say -- can pin down all the 3 aspects of that for different types of**  **4 intents and different types of applications 5 and technology, so there is two parts of it.**  **6 One is that the technology used is really 7 implied throughout this whole thing. And**  **8 the other is the types of recording, what 9 would you record? You know, we don't**  **10 necessarily want that in today's regulation. 11 It would be much better suited in the**  **12 standard so long as we have the safety 13 intent. And then the third would be there**  **14 is going to be different levels of that. 15 And I don't know if we want to try to**  **16 capture levels and, you know, it's a binary 17 thing, that the voice recording looks like**  **18 this or you don't have it. 19 It just does not feel like it's**  **20 solving our problem there. And the same 21 this is going to be true for the next**  **22 section but that is my general comment. So 23 a lot of words missing. And in fact, this**  **24 would be one of the longer sections in the 25 whole thing, so that should tell us** Page 46 May 4, 2016

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### 1 something too. So really what is the safety **2 intent and how can we facilitate really, 3 really well implemented voice recorders of**  **4 the future? 5 MR. JIM BRADY: Thank you.**  **6 MR. GREG BOWLES: Greg Bowles with 7 GAMA. So our comment to the voice recorder,**  **8 and the flight data recorder section up 9 next, in taking into account the ICAO**  **10 requirements through Annex 6, or operational 11 requirements for flight recorders, it would**  **12 be appropriate for the FAA to have higher 13 level language here and reference standards**  **14 such as ED-155 or ED-112 which are standards 15 acceptable to ICAO that do detail this**  **16 material already and those are world 17 acceptance standards.**  **18 With respect to calling out the 19 numbering of this section 23.1457, which**  **20 does not fit well with the rest of the 21 structure that the FAA has created,**  **22 understanding that this rule is tied in 23 pretty extensively to operational rules to**  **24 the FAA's structure, as those operational 25 rules are evolved over time it would be** Page 47 May 4, 2016

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### 1 appropriate to renumber this rule at some **2 time through a future rulemaking at a 3 minimum, if this can't be changed to match**  **4 now. 5 MR. JIM BRADY: Thank you.**  **6 Additional comments? 7 The next rule is 1459, the FDR. I**  **8 would assume the comments as stated 9 previously are very similar. Any additional**  **10 comments specifically on this rule. 11 And that covers Subpart F. And I**  **12 think -- do you want to call it, Ric? 13 Are there any comments or concerns**  **14 or statements on Subpart F? Thank you. 15 MR. LOWELL FOSTER: So before we**  **16 backtrack to (e), I think that what we will 17 do process-wise is I would like to revisit**  **18 23.5 and then we will take a break and then 19 come back and finish with Subpart (e). But**  **20 if you give me just a second, I want to set 21 up 23.5.**  **22 So I would like to revisit 23.5 23 because in discussions last night, we**  **24 realized that we are not necessarily 25 clear -- at least I did not feel like we** Page 48 May 4, 2016

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### 1 were clear on the comments we got or at **2 least the focus. 3 There were -- there were two**  **4 comments, one towards simple and one towards 5 VFR. And as you know from reading the**  **6 preamble, when we did this, the idea was to 7 create simple to allow a little bit of**  **8 flexibility in propulsion. It's very 9 narrow, and we had some internal concerns**  **10 about doing it, and so in the AC -- or in 11 the NPRM, we actually asked the public for**  **12 their thoughts on the appropriateness of 13 simple. And so because we are asking that**  **14 question, we want to make sure we are clear 15 on that, so if you don't mind, those of you**  **16 who had comments yesterday, I would ask you, 17 maybe, to target them again so we can be**  **18 clear, is the focus on the simple category 19 or on the VFR or both?**  **20 MR. GREG BOWLES: Greg Bowles with 21 GAMA.**  **22 So 23.5(d) simple, the definition 23 of simple aircraft, I believe the term**  **24 simple appears twice in the code after this 25 point. One occurrence is the reference use** Page 49 May 4, 2016

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### 1 made, it's aircraft that are type -- **2 propulsion systems that are inherently type 3 certified except for simple -- and I can't**  **4 remember what the other one is. Does anyone 5 remember? Is it only one other occurrence?**  **6 It might only be one other occurrence. 7 So our comment is that we believe**  **8 that as the FAA has described in the past, 9 part 23 addresses a large range of aircraft.**  **10 Below part 23 we have the LSA system that is 11 in the FAA system and we also have the**  **12 primary category. And so those are simpler 13 types of aircraft for all intents, and part**  **14 23 is a beginning from those aircraft, at 15 that end we would tie in what we would call**  **16 a simple part 23 aircraft, but then a 17 slightly less simple type aircraft would**  **18 evolve and would require, under that 19 spectrum -- would be a relatively**  **20 high-performing flex aircraft within part 21 23.**  **22 We do not believe that it's 23 appropriate to define each of those aircraft**  **24 types. In fact, we believe that it's 25 impossible. We don't think that you can** Page 50 May 4, 2016

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### 1 call out a framework of characteristics that **2 define them. For example, an aircraft could 3 still be simple if it had a 61 knot stall**  **4 speed but then had all these other 5 characteristics. It could be simple if it**  **6 was a Level 2 airplane with these 7 characteristics.**  **8 So these defining characteristics 9 are not a, quote, unquote, simple airplane.**  **10 It would be more appropriate to keep the 11 intent that simple design solutions are**  **12 treated with simple methods of compliance. 13 As performance gets more complex, we need to**  **14 do more and more things and I think the code 15 in general is written in that way. The one**  **16 exception is the idea of type certifying 17 propulsion, I believe. There might be one**  **18 other that I am forgetting, but is there -- 19 do you --**  **20 MR. LOWELL FOSTER: That is the one 21 that I remember.**  **22 MR. GREG BOWLES: Engine and 23 propeller.**  **24 (Unidentified speaker. Inaudible 25 comment.)** Page 51 May 4, 2016

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### 1 MR. GREG BOWLES: You are right. **2 So engineer propeller, I think, is the 3 unique simple aircraft categorization.**  **4 So in a minute I think that we will 5 talk propulsion and we will have a specific**  **6 comment to that portion of the rule. But to 7 maybe allude to what my comment is going to**  **8 be in that area, the definition of simple 9 will not be needed for what I think the**  **10 correction would be appropriate in the 11 propulsion section. So it would be better**  **12 to have a pure part 23 without breaking out 13 sets of characteristics and calling it a**  **14 type of aircraft and just have a range of 15 aircraft in part 23 that have design**  **16 characteristics that drive certain 17 requirements based on the characteristics**  **18 that are chosen and not grouping one 19 particular set and linking it directly to**  **20 something else. 21 We think if the FAA, if it needs**  **22 to, can still get there without this 23 definition. And we prefer that the FAA has**  **24 the flexibility in the future so that we can 25 do more than just what is called out here** Page 52 May 4, 2016

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### 1 without having to go through that. **2 MR. LOWELL FOSTER: Okay. Thank 3 you. The -- as we stated in the preamble,**  **4 we had the concern that it might be somewhat 5 redundant and so these comments are very**  **6 helpful for us. 7 MR. DAVID ARMSTRONG: David**  **8 Armstrong from Garmin. I just want to echo 9 what Greg said. We believe that the simple**  **10 definition in the regulation is unnecessary. 11 It's nothing that we could not do in**  **12 establishing a case-by-case basis and it may 13 actually be prohibitive in the future.**  **14 MR. LOWELL FOSTER: Thank you. 15 MR. JIM BRADY: Lowell, before you**  **16 leave the -- can you page up one. So from 17 page 4 to page 3? Since we are on the**  **18 subject of having the discussion about, you 19 know, classes of airplanes and our risk**  **20 management, I just want to revisit 21 subparagraph (b), 23.5(b). This is one of**  **22 the more important rules in part -- in the 23 proposed part 23 and I just want to make**  **24 sure that you, as the public, have an 25 opportunity to -- if we are off target, we** Page 53 May 4, 2016

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### 1 would like to know right now. If these **2 aren't the four appropriate levels of risk 3 to replace the current weight separations**  **4 and propulsion operations, that we would 5 really like to hear your feedback on that.**  **6 MR. GREG BOWLES: The comments on 7 23.5(b), the determination of risk is**  **8 inherently governmental function. And so 9 with respect to what the FAA has put forth**  **10 as far as a determination of risk, we are 11 supportive of that. Our concern would be**  **12 based on the clarity and understanding of 13 what those categories are. I think previous**  **14 iterations prior to NPRM, prior to the 15 rulemaking in the beginning were more**  **16 confusing in this concept and this version 17 is much more clear, so we would support the**  **18 FAA's direction. 19 MR. LOWELL FOSTER: Thank you. I**  **20 appreciate it. 21 MR. DAVID ARMSTRONG: David**  **22 Armstrong from Garmin. My only comment is 23 that the preamble should clarify what**  **24 exactly is meant by passengers. We just see 25 an opportunity down the line for it to be** Page 54 May 4, 2016

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### 1 confused, does it or does it not include the **2 pilot? Does it include somebody sitting in 3 the right seat of a single pilot airplane?**  **4 What exactly is the passenger? 5 MR. LOWELL FOSTER: Thank you. I**  **6 think that that is a valid comment. I 7 appreciate that and hope that you will**  **8 follow up with a written comment to the 9 docket. Thanks, David.**  **10 MR. WELDON WAINRIGHT: This is 11 Weldon Wainright, Powerplant DER. It looks**  **12 like on the Caravan airplane it could be 13 Level 1, 2 or 3. You got up to, like, nine**  **14 passengers for that airplane, so when you 15 come back to simple airplane, plus the**  **16 airspeed limitations down to 250 calibrated 17 airspeed, there is an airplane that fits**  **18 into multiple categories on there. So by 19 simple you could have airplane one, two and**  **20 three and when you come back to this just 21 level one as far as the simple plane, that**  **22 is the example that I can think of where you 23 could have multiple new airplanes fit those**  **24 categories. 25 MR. LOWELL FOSTER: Thank you. We** Page 55 May 4, 2016

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### 1 appreciate that. **2 MR. RIC PERI: I think history 3 plays a role here and I, actually -- I mean,**  **4 I, fundamentally, like this and I know that 5 we have a couple of airplanes out there**  **6 where we have some challenges. MU-2 comes 7 to mind and I want to know how this fits**  **8 into that as you evaluate things. But one 9 of the areas that we have run into**  **10 challenges with in particular is the Part 11 135 maintenance program where the**  **12 regulation -- you talk about airplanes 13 certificated with number of passengers and**  **14 to move it in and out of approved 15 maintenance programs. And the ability to**  **16 retrofit what was traditionally 17 137-passenger aircraft into cargo**  **18 configuration and now all of a sudden you 19 drop to a lower level.**  **20 So what I would encourage is is to 21 make sure that the language here is talking**  **22 about originally certificated or originally 23 type certificated because it's based on the**  **24 complexity of the aircraft, not necessarily 25 the use of the aircraft.** Page 56 May 4, 2016

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### 1 So as the gentleman said, you take **2 a Caravan and reconfigure it for straight 3 cargo, it does not change the aircraft even**  **4 though it now has seating for one passenger. 5 So just make sure those are addressed going**  **6 forward. 7 MR. LOWELL FOSTER: So what I hear**  **8 is we need to a elaborate on all this in the 9 preamble of the final rule and make it clear**  **10 on the intent. 11 Okay. I appreciate everyone's**  **12 comments. Anyone else? 13 All right. Why don't we regroup at**  **14 9:30 and we will start with Subpart (e). 15 Thank you.**  **16 (Recess.) 17 MR. JIM BRADY: Thank you. One**  **18 thing I would like to bring up before we get 19 started on the powerplant presentation by**  **20 John Vanhoudt is we have had some concerns 21 within the rulemaking team and comments now**  **22 from the public regarding the -- a confusion 23 factor between the new and the old rules.**  **24 One of the things we are considering is 25 renumbering the rules starting at 2000. So,** Page 57 May 4, 2016

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### 1 for instance, we would have 23.2000 would be **2 the current proposed 23.1 and we would just 3 step up by fives from that. That is one**  **4 thing that we are considering, and I would 5 like to ask you to provide any concerns or**  **6 comments you would have on that and we will 7 take that into consideration.**  **8 We have not made a determination, 9 obviously, but we would like to get your**  **10 feedback on that if we can. 11 MR. GREG BOWLES: So Greg Bowles**  **12 from GAMA, a comment on the numbering. 13 So from our perspective the thing**  **14 that is most important with the numbering of 15 the future amendment of part 23, because so**  **16 many rules are being consolidated into 17 individual rules, so a five to one**  **18 compression or so, it would be very 19 confusing if a new numbered rule matched an**  **20 old numbered rule when having discussions 21 because the nature of that rule would be**  **22 drastically different from one amendment to 23 the next.**  **24 To properly deal with that issue we 25 would look toward a new numbering system** Page 58 May 4, 2016

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### 1 similar to what was proposed in the NPRM or **2 the description that you just gave of the 3 23.2000 beginning would potentially make a**  **4 nice clear departure so it is very clear 5 what people are talking about. So the big**  **6 issues that we think need to be addressed 7 are making sure we don't overlap, making**  **8 sure an old number rule does not share a new 9 numbered rule with different meaning and**  **10 international harmonization, so we would 11 like the rule numbering system to match**  **12 similarly so EASA uses CS23XXX numbering 13 system, we would like them to match whatever**  **14 agreement you can come to. 15 MR. JIM BRADY: Okay. Thank you.**  **16 Any other comments pro or con? I 17 will give you an opportunity later but think**  **18 about that and you can provide written 19 comments on that as well. We would**  **20 appreciate it. Thank you. 21 John?**  **22 MR. JOHN VANHOUDT: All right. 23 Good morning. I am John Vanhoudt, and I am**  **24 going to be presenting Subpart (e). Just so 25 you know, I don't know if you talked about** Page 59 May 4, 2016

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### 1 it at all yesterday, but Jeff Pretz is over **2 there and he is actually going to be taking 3 over these rules. I was an intermediate, I**  **4 guess. But unfortunately for Jeff, he did 5 not show up in time to be part of the**  **6 rulemaking that we were doing before he came 7 up, so -- but he is going to get to take**  **8 over the mess. So if you need something, 9 you can talk to Jeff or I for comments, and**  **10 also Paul will be coming in the middle of 11 this for the icing. There is one icing rule**  **12 that he would be stepping up for. 13 Okay. So, in general, in general,**  **14 okay, in general, what you have probably 15 already seen is that the rules for Subpart**  **16 (e) we combined internally the rules because 17 there are so many that basically are the**  **18 same thing that we combined them; that was 19 the basis for the reduction and also Part 33**  **20 and 35, we saw a lot of overlap there when 21 we were reviewing, so we were able to reduce**  **22 the rules down to ten. I think that there 23 is ten.**  **24 And the only other comment, overall 25 comment, I would make is that we pulled out** Page 60 May 4, 2016

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### 1 and created, I would say, I guess, 910, I **2 think it is, that talks about system or 3 safety assessments that we found peppered**  **4 throughout all the rules. We pulled them 5 out and made one general proposed regulation**  **6 for how you do a safety assessment. So I am 7 just going to put the rule up. I think that**  **8 you have read them all, and open them up for 9 comments.**  **10 The very first one being 900 where 11 we try to identify, in general, what a**  **12 powerplant was because as you all know, 13 powerplant -- we were trying to capture not**  **14 only today's power plants but future power 15 plants and so this is our first attempt to**  **16 do so. 17 So I see that Greg is already**  **18 ready. You only get two comments, so use 19 them wisely.**  **20 MR. GREG BOWLES: Thanks, John. 21 Greg Bowles from GAMA with a comment to**  **22 23.900(c). So currently the FAA has 23 indicated that except for simple airplanes**  **24 each power unit must be type certificated. 25 Today products such as engines,** Page 61 May 4, 2016

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### 1 propellers and aircraft receive type **2 certification. When we have a propeller or 3 an engine, it's then integrated into the**  **4 type certification of the airplane. For a 5 number of reasons this proposal would allow**  **6 a simple airplane to do that job of type 7 certificating the engine as part of the**  **8 airplane so I would assume that it would 9 mean all the issues of that power unit were**  **10 taking care of through the Part 21 process 11 of the FAA at the time of airframe**  **12 certification and the production aspect 13 would be controlled by the airframe type**  **14 certificate holder. That makes a lot of 15 sense for simple engines or simple power**  **16 plants. The discriminator of simple 17 airplanes, I think, is the issue.**  **18 So the reason it makes sense to do 19 that is based on our opinion on the**  **20 simplicity of the power source. So if we 21 are talking a simple propulsion unit or an**  **22 electrical propulsion unit, those would 23 require a lot less rigor regarding that**  **24 additional certification process than, for 25 example, a turbine engine, so that** Page 62 May 4, 2016

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### 1 discriminator would be more appropriate. **2 So, based on the complexity of the 3 propulsion type, the FAA should allow one to**  **4 type certify the propulsion source with the 5 airplane and should not be based on the**  **6 simple airplane. I understand the Genesys 7 of this was from what EASA has done with the**  **8 VLA category, but it makes a lot of sense 9 especially facing forward as we look at**  **10 electric power sources. 11 Electric motors is a relative -- it**  **12 is a relatively simple component, actually 13 the most difficult aspect of electrical**  **14 propulsion will already be airplane based. 15 They include the battery systems, the**  **16 control systems, the charging systems, those 17 are very complicated bits, but they are**  **18 already airplane based. So it would make a 19 lot of sense to allow simple units like the**  **20 multi-electric motor to also be certified 21 regardless of the complexity of the airplane**  **22 on which it is being put. 23 So our comment -- will be written**  **24 as well -- would be that 23.900(c) should 25 allow the FAA to determine, based on the** Page 63 May 4, 2016

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### 1 complexity of the power source, whether or **2 not it should be independently type 3 certificated or type certificated with the**  **4 airplane. 5 MR. DAVID ARMSTRONG: David**  **6 Armstrong from Garmin. Our comment is with 7 respect to 900(b) and the question of what**  **8 exactly is a likely hazard. We have had 9 probably, we have had all different**  **10 discriminators in the past. We are not sure 11 what exactly a likely hazard means.**  **12 MR. JOHN VANHOUDT: So on that 13 particular one I would just say I don't know**  **14 how much -- I think that this occurred 15 throughout the rulemaking process, the**  **16 proposed rulemaking process. I know that we 17 struggled with that ourselves quite a bit**  **18 and I think that we are going to end up just 19 making a common statement across the board**  **20 for all of us. So if that appears somewhere 21 else, and I don't know if it does, likely, I**  **22 am sure that the comment will be 23 standardized for all.**  **24 MR. BILL BRODEGARD: Okay. Just 25 for clarification, this is the -- for (a) it** Page 64 May 4, 2016

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### 1 says: Provides auxiliary power to the **2 airplane. Does that mean auxiliary power to 3 the bus or is it auxiliary power to any**  **4 portion of the airplane, for example, a 5 battery, you know, powering a peculiar**  **6 device or something like that? And then for 7 (c), is the aircraft power unit, is that**  **8 defined somewhere or does the aircraft power 9 unit refer to the items in (a).**  **10 MR. JOHN VANHOUDT: So two 11 questions there, I think. So the first one**  **12 auxiliary power is not particular to 13 electric bus, it's auxiliary powered. It**  **14 could be because your future propulsion unit 15 might be there, so we are trying to be very**  **16 generic in the wording, but in this area 17 it's particular to auxiliary power to the**  **18 aircraft, not the power bus. 19 MR. BILL BRODEGARD: Right. So an**  **20 individual battery, for example, that would 21 power one particular article, would fall --**  **22 this rule would fall into that it seems a 23 little bit -- okay. I can now make a**  **24 comment on that one. 25 MR. JOHN VANHOUDT: Okay. And then** Page 65 May 4, 2016

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### 1 what was your second one again? **2 MR. BILL BRODEGARD: It says 3 aircraft power unit.**  **4 MR. JOHN VANHOUDT: Yes, I believe 5 we did define that if not in the definition**  **6 section then in the preamble, I believe. 7 MR. BILL BRODEGARD: All right.**  **8 Thank you. 9 MR. NICK BOGNER: I would like to**  **10 express my support for the definition of 11 terms like "likely." I think you're right**  **12 on in that if we define what is likely or 13 probable or some sort of general statement**  **14 that would explicitly map to deferral to 15 standards, so there is a concept that says**  **16 that you need to evaluate the chance of or 17 probability of in various forms that is**  **18 unified throughout all of our sections here 19 would be very helpful in that when you see**  **20 that word that means very specific thing and 21 it means different things for, say,**  **22 different aircraft. 23 So if we unify on that, that would**  **24 help the ambiguity because I like the 25 generic term, we like to see that so that** Page 66 May 4, 2016

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### 1 you can, then, apply it to the appropriate **2 level in other standards or just standards 3 in general in other uses. So that would be**  **4 a very helpful thing because you do need a 5 somewhat less defined term that would get us**  **6 there that has that specific meaning and 7 would map to other definitions and different**  **8 definitions for different aircraft. But 9 there is a concept there that is really**  **10 important and we don't want to over define 11 that, but have a keyword there.**  **12 MR. JOHN VANHOUDT: Okay. 13 MR. RANDY GRIFFITH: Randy Griffith**  **14 with Mooney. And my comment rides along 15 with the earlier comment made. When I look**  **16 at (a) and (c) auxiliary power, I would 17 normally interpret that as like an APU**  **18 installation which Subpart A is normally 19 applied to. But then when I read (c),**  **20 depending on what your definition of 21 aircraft power unit is, it's APUs and TSOs,**  **22 depending on the category of airplane, 23 somebody can interpret that and say other**  **24 than APU it now must receive an engine TC, 25 and so I would be very careful -- I would** Page 67 May 4, 2016

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### 1 actually rather than -- I get concerned with **2 definitions and preambles and stuff, because 3 over time, even preamble language says going**  **4 up to follow the preamble, do you follow the 5 preamble, I would actually write into the**  **6 regulation what exactly you mean by aircraft 7 power unit.**  **8 MR. JOHN VANHOUDT: Okay. Good 9 comment. And we did struggle with things**  **10 like that because we are talking about -- 11 especially in powerplant, there is -- I**  **12 think that there is a broader range of what 13 is today and what is coming so it is a**  **14 little bit harder, and I know that the 15 language can get confusing, so, yes.**  **16 MR. RANDY GRIFFITH: And, again, 17 depending on somebody's background, how they**  **18 interpret it -- and like I said, when I 19 first read that, making the same comment,**  **20 what do you mean by power unit. But I would 21 think that a lot of things like that, and**  **22 passenger, see if we can get it into part 23 one, I mean, that is really what regulatory**  **24 definitions are supposed to be, so... 25 MR. JOHN VANHOUDT: Any other on** Page 68 May 4, 2016

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### 1 900? **2 So 905 is the complement to 900 in 3 its basic form and that is what it's**  **4 supposed to be. Any comments on that one? 5 MR. GREG BOWLES: Greg Bowles from**  **6 GAMA. I would make the same comment that I 7 made to 23.900(c) towards 23.905(a) that the**  **8 FAA should be able to able to allow the type 9 certification of propeller or the fan based**  **10 on the complexity of that device on the 11 airplane, rather than based on some, quote,**  **12 unquote, simple airplane. 13 MR. JOHN VANHOUDT: Yeah, one**  **14 comment I would make, I believe -- and I 15 don't know for sure, but I believe that Part**  **16 33 is looking at possibly rewriting the 17 rules. I don't know. I don't know if that**  **18 is true or not, but the only reason I bring 19 that up is because in concert with what they**  **20 may be doing to catch up with technology, 21 these rules are trying to match what they**  **22 might be coming up with at some point, so... 23 MR. RIC PERI: Ric Peri with AEA,**  **24 kind of in support with what Greg is saying 25 here, though I appreciate what 33 is doing** Page 69 May 4, 2016

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### 1 and I appreciate the rewrite of the same **2 certification criteria for powerplant and 3 for propellers, but I don't know what the**  **4 value-added is by limiting it only to type 5 certificated products. You know, we have**  **6 got kind of a new generation and a 7 forward-looking generation, if you will.**  **8 And the reality is that we may end up with 9 powerplant or propeller standards out there**  **10 and now all of a sudden we are limited and 11 we can't use the other production tools that**  **12 the agency has under 21.9. We are limited 13 to the type certificate. And while it may**  **14 have made sense in the '30s and '40s because 15 that was kind of the control, just because**  **16 we happen to have that does not mean we 17 should limit ourselves only to that option.**  **18 MR. JOHN VANHOUDT: Yeah, and we -- 19 this is the perfect area to comment on**  **20 because we did struggle with how to apply 21 this so we thought that we will get our best**  **22 foot forward and then let you guys comment 23 on it. So comments on those particular two**  **24 would be of interest to us. 25 Okay. Any more comments on 905?** Page 70 May 4, 2016

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### 1 910. This is my favorite because I **2 am a systems guy by nature. But 910 is 3 the -- the intent was to qualify a safety**  **4 assessment in power plants because, as Dave 5 can tell you, it's typically applied to**  **6 systems, but if you looked at the rules, the 7 current rules, the current regs, you can see**  **8 that it's peppered throughout the whole 9 thing. So we combined a general overall to**  **10 apply this to powerplant installations. 11 Any comments on 910? Not even from**  **12 Dave? Okay. Great. It must have made 13 perfect sense then.**  **14 Okay. 915 was the -- or an attempt 15 at combining various rules. And without**  **16 going too much into it, there is not a lot 17 left there to leave at high level. Any**  **18 comments on this particular one? 19 MR. GREG BOWLES: Greg Bowles from**  **20 GAMA, to comment on 23.915(b), in context of 21 new propulsion sources that may be**  **22 unmanageable by the pilot such as 23 distributed lift or distributed thrust**  **24 systems which would need automation make as 25 part of the control having a means for the** Page 71 May 4, 2016

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### 1 pilot to deactivate the activation would be **2 problematic. So we would recommend finding 3 a better way to address the needs of systems**  **4 where you would want to do that so you are 5 able to do that without making it a**  **6 regulatory requirement that the pilot can 7 put the aircraft into an unsafe condition.**  **8 MR. JOHN VANHOUDT: Okay. Good 9 comment. Thank you.**  **10 Okay. Any other comments on this 11 one?**  **12 Okay. 920. We did a good job on 13 reducing this particular one, we thought.**  **14 And I think that it's very high level 15 performance-based. Any comments on 920?**  **16 Okay. 925. Again, just a 17 combination of multiple rules, very spread**  **18 out through the old regs into a high level 19 rule.**  **20 MR. GREG BOWLES: John, Greg Bowles 21 from GAMA. Comment on 23.925(a), when**  **22 looking at the language it was apparent that 23 there was not actually a requirement for**  **24 powerplant operation during normal 25 operations, so potentially 23.925(a) should** Page 72 May 4, 2016

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### 1 address normal flight and negative **2 acceleration. 3 MR. JOHN VANHOUDT: Okay. Do you**  **4 want clarification on the emergency part? 5 MR. PAT MULLEN: Greg, I did not**  **6 quite understand your comment again. 7 MR. GREG BOWLES: Sorry, actually I**  **8 guess, based on the full reading of that 9 sentence, maybe it does not integrate well.**  **10 So the comment is actually that there is not 11 a requirement that the powerplant needs to**  **12 function properly in -- not in deceleration 13 mode but in normal flight mode. So we think**  **14 that the regulation that would say the 15 powerplant must operate during normal and**  **16 emergency operation within the airplane 17 operating limitations might be an**  **18 appropriate rule. 19 And then a follow-up rule saying**  **20 the powerplant must operate at any negative 21 acceleration that may occur or may be a more**  **22 accepted term, I don't know. If the word 23 negative is -- maybe it was hashed out very**  **24 well. So anyway, it's clear from the intent 25 here that the FAA is looking to make sure** Page 73 May 4, 2016

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### 1 that during deceleration things are safe and **2 they work, but we have not found a rule that 3 says during normal propulsion use the same**  **4 is required. 5 MR. WELDON WAINWRIGHT: This is**  **6 Weldon Wainwright. I have a question on the 7 (c) portion of 23.925 where we are talking**  **8 about an independent power source. Right 9 now, of course, you restart, you got the**  **10 battery on board the airplane. Is this 11 requiring, like, an additional battery to**  **12 what we have had, you know, normal 13 operations on the airplane? This is back**  **14 into where -- it's like part of your 15 restarting like you say in flight shutdowns**  **16 on there, so am I reading that right? Do we 17 need to have a secondary battery or --**  **18 MR. JOHN VANHOUDT: Well, we are 19 certainly trying not to be prescriptive to a**  **20 second battery to say -- I mean, your 21 powerplant might be a battery in driving**  **22 your powerplant, so all that is intended is 23 is that if you lose your primary source of**  **24 propulsion you will have to have a backup. 25 MR. WELDON WAINRIGHT: So kind of** Page 74 May 4, 2016

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### 1 driving it into the world of turboprops and **2 stuff where you can have kind like 3 windmilling, you know, types of assisted**  **4 starts on there. And so if it's to the 5 point where you would have to have a**  **6 separate battery on there, sometimes that 7 can be a real problem because there just**  **8 isn't a space and the airplane had like a 9 second battery in the airplane to do that,**  **10 so just a question there. 11 MR. JOHN VANHOUDT: Okay. Thank**  **12 you. 13 MR. DAVID ARMSTRONG: David**  **14 Armstrong from Garmin, just kind of 15 following up from his comment. He used the**  **16 word independent. Independent from what? 17 The electrical system? The engine? What**  **18 exactly is meant there? We can see that 19 being an area of confusion later.**  **20 MR. JOHN VANHOUDT: Okay. I think 21 that we -- yes, we got the point. I think**  **22 that we have enough to take that comment 23 back and look at it again.**  **24 Any more questions on 925 or 25 comments? Before I move on I want to** Page 75 May 4, 2016

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### 1 capture one more note on this. **2 Okay. 930. There was a lot of 3 discussion on this particular one, so**  **4 knowing that you probably read it before you 5 got here, I will just leave it open for**  **6 comments now. 7 MR. GREG BOWLES: Greg Bowles from**  **8 GAMA. A comment in general to 23.930 and 9 some of the follow-up on language**  **10 discussions. So in the context of new types 11 of aircraft in addition to old types of, or**  **12 current types of aircraft, GAMA might like 13 to see the term fuel used where we are**  **14 talking about a flammable fluid that is 15 caused for generating energy for combustion**  **16 and the term energy used where we are using 17 a more generic type of energy. And so in**  **18 the context of fuel system, it would be 19 preferable to see some discussion about**  **20 energy transmission as well as fuel 21 transmission or just the higher level of**  **22 energy transmission if you don't want to go 23 forward separating the two.**  **24 MR. JOHN VANHOUDT: Okay. Thank 25 you.** Page 76 May 4, 2016

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### 1 MR. WELDON WAINRIGHT: This is **2 Weldon Wainright. On number 4 on there 3 (a)(4): Provide a means to remove fuel from**  **4 the airplane. I am assuming that is just a 5 normal drain system and that we are not**  **6 requiring like a fuel jettison system on 7 there. Just a question.**  **8 MR. JOHN VANHOUDT: I really don't 9 know. I don't think that we were talking**  **10 about fuel jettison systems in particular. 11 But in particular that was working**  **12 well or we were trying to incorporate some 13 of the intent of the old rule there still**  **14 and leave room for the new technologies, so 15 wording that was a little difficult. But we**  **16 are not trying to go above and beyond what 17 is already currently required.**  **18 Any other comments on 930? 19 Okay. 935, another example of**  **20 combining multiple regs that were in the 21 current rules to something more overarching,**  **22 I guess. 23 Any comments here?**  **24 Okay. Here is where I turn it over 25 to Paul.** Page 77 May 4, 2016

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### 1 MR. PAUL PELLICANO: This rule -- **2 the intent of this rule is to -- when we 3 address engine induction icing or any**  **4 aircraft ice secretion that can potentially 5 be ingested into the engine and cause a**  **6 hazard is to do exactly what we are doing 7 today with the one exception is that, if an**  **8 airplane now we are providing the option to 9 seek flight into freezing drizzle and**  **10 freezing rain, part (a) would ask the 11 applicant or request the applicant to**  **12 address induction system icing protection 13 both from induction icing and also from a**  **14 shed hazard from the airplane. And part (b) 15 would also require that that engine be type**  **16 certificated to the latest Part 33 17 amendment, which was just the last amendment**  **18 in Part 33 that added large droplet 19 conditions requirements.**  **20 Now, it's very -- the rule now is 21 very high level. We took out all**  **22 prescriptives. And the way that we look at 23 that is part (a) addresses induction system**  **24 and airplane ice conditions that cause 25 shedding.** Page 78 May 4, 2016

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### 1 Part (b) addresses the engine where **2 the engine type certificate is -- engine 3 certification basis is adequate, for**  **4 example, for ice shedding. And it also 5 addresses propeller ice secretion. So**  **6 (a) -- like we did today, (a) is required 7 regardless of whether you were seeking**  **8 flight in icing and (c) would only be 9 required for ice conditions for which**  **10 certification is requested. 11 There was a comment before about --**  **12 well, the word foreseeable, there was a 13 comment before about maybe that definition**  **14 should be in the rule. Right now the 15 preamble has examples and we envision that**  **16 also being defined in means of compliance. 17 The issue here is we -- you know,**  **18 we are covering various types of power 19 plants so, for example, foreseeable for**  **20 reciprocating engines would be any at 21 atmospheric conditions that would cause**  **22 carburetor failure. 23 So all those prescriptive**  **24 requirements that were in 1093(a), we 25 envision them all being moved to compliance** Page 79 May 4, 2016

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### 1 and we would also now -- foreseeable would **2 be -- for a turbine engine would be ice 3 conditions for which the airplane is**  **4 certified. And we also now -- in this 5 compliance we would address ice crystals the**  **6 way that we are doing today. 7 I mentioned before we were having**  **8 issues with airplanes at very high altitude, 9 we are talking 40,000 feet and certainly**  **10 navigating thunderstorms and other hazardous 11 environments causing pitot probe issues and**  **12 it's also been causing on a fairly large 13 airplane engine core icing and causing**  **14 rollback. 15 On our part 23 jets it has been**  **16 blocking the inlet total temperature probes. 17 And how we are handling that currently is**  **18 through design, and we need compliance issue 19 papers and are handling that the same way,**  **20 so that is the intent. 21 And any comments or questions?**  **22 Okay. Thank you. 23 All right. Almost there. Okay.**  **24 Actually, I believe that this is the last 25 one. It is.** Page 80 May 4, 2016

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### 1 So 1000 for the powerplant fire **2 protection. Again, an example of combining 3 previous rules into one. For the most part,**  **4 the powerplant combined within itself, I 5 just wanted to make that earlier comment.**  **6 Some of the others went outside and brought 7 in other rules that made sense. But for**  **8 this one in particular, in general, we 9 combined it within the rule. So we had a**  **10 lot of difficulty combining it any lower 11 than this.**  **12 Any comments on that particular 13 one?**  **14 MR. GREG BOWLES: Greg Bowles from 15 GAMA. The comment on 23.1000(a). So**  **16 certain technologies will not have -- so, 17 for example, electric propulsion, the motor**  **18 itself would probably be classified as the 19 powerplant. That is not the component of**  **20 concern with respect to fire. In that type 21 of system the battery would be, and so in**  **22 that type of system it would be appropriate 23 to put the battery in a designated fire**  **24 zone, but the motor itself, depending on the 25 design, would not necessarily be an item** Page 81 May 4, 2016

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### 1 flammability concern. So, in general, the **2 section could be written in a higher, more 3 performance-based manner and we will submit**  **4 comments to that respect. 5 MR. JOHN VANHOUDT: Okay. Any**  **6 other comments? 7 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Well, on the**  **8 Level 3 and Level 4, this is on the (d) 9 section on 23.1000. We are talking Level**  **10 3/Level 4 where it's outside the pilot's 11 view. I think that you might want to go**  **12 down maybe to a Level 2. I am thinking like 13 maybe a Cirrus jet or something like that,**  **14 you got a real small single-engine jet so it 15 probably would apply to that one also.**  **16 MR. JOHN VANHOUDT: Okay. Thank 17 you.**  **18 MR. STEVE ROSENFELD: Steve 19 Rosenfeld for NATCA. Just to clarify the**  **20 question on 23.1000(b) where you are getting 21 into fireproof shield, I am assuming that**  **22 that is more or less taking the place of a 23 call for a firewall withstanding the 2000**  **24 degree heat limit made of steel. Am I 25 correct on that?** Page 82 May 4, 2016

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### 1 MR. JOHN VANHOUDT: In general, we **2 are trying to keep the intent of the old 3 rule without putting prescriptive to the**  **4 values, so how do I answer that any 5 different than that? I don't think that I**  **6 can answer particularly to the temperature 7 limits.**  **8 MR. STEVE ROSENFELD: So specific 9 firewall, that is being shifted over to the**  **10 prescriptive standards. 11 MR. JOHN VANHOUDT: Method and**  **12 compliance standard, yes. 13 MR. STEVE ROSENFELD: Okay.**  **14 MR. JOHN VANHOUDT: That is it, 15 yeah.**  **16 MR. WELDON WAINRIGHT: Along with 17 Steve's question there, we have been**  **18 involved with fire blankets on the airplane; 19 that is where you have the wreck where it's**  **20 the adjacent structure. And there is 21 part -- it used to be Part 23.865 on there.**  **22 So, again, that would kind of be a take on 23 that, too. So if you have like a firewall**  **24 and then you have some kind of protection on 25 that to protect your structure in addition** Page 83 May 4, 2016

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### 1 to that, so that maybe needs to be worded **2 into that regulation also. Thank you. 3 MR. JOHN VANHOUDT: Okay. Any**  **4 other comments? Okay. That was easy. 5 MR. BILL SCHINSTOCK: All right.**  **6 Thank you. That concludes the presentation 7 of each of the specific sections. I would**  **8 like to take the opportunity now to offer 9 you the opportunity, as the public, to**  **10 provide any other comments you may have at 11 this time.**  **12 MR. WELDON WAINRIGHT: This is 13 Weldon Wainright. One general comment on**  **14 the -- in the powerplant section on the 15 instrumentation for the engines, that is now**  **16 moved to 23, I think, the 10 reg and stuff 17 where it's rolled in all together with**  **18 flight instruments, powerplant instruments 19 and they are all together.**  **20 For years we have suffered with the 21 same thing where you got the powerplant**  **22 regs, like, all over the place. You have 23 the 1305, 1337, 1549 that covered what you**  **24 have to have in the airplane, plus like gage 25 markings, range markings and things like** Page 84 May 4, 2016

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### 1 that. So it would be nice at some point in **2 time to corral those all together and I 3 think strip them out of the 23.10 and maybe**  **4 put them back over into the powerplant 5 section. Just a suggestion. Thank you.**  **6 MR. BILL SCHINSTOCK: Thank you. 7 MR. GREG BOWLES: I would say that**  **8 because the pilot is the end interface for 9 all of that information, one of the issues**  **10 of having, as you described, the inputs to 11 the pilot coming from all different**  **12 regulations has been the federated and 13 non-federated differences in the cockpits.**  **14 So because the pilot needs to process the 15 information, having the requirement for how**  **16 information is displayed to the pilot in one 17 place, but what information needs to be**  **18 given to that display or to that portrayal 19 of information coming from which part.**  **20 So powerplant should specify what 21 information needs to be given to the pilot,**  **22 the flight should specify what information, 23 so on and so forth. And that information**  **24 should all be provided to the pilot through 25 one clear rule so that it's a nice fair way** Page 85 May 4, 2016

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### 1 for the pilot to interface with that. We **2 believe that that is the right way for that 3 to occur. Thank you.**  **4 MR. BILL SCHINSTOCK: Thank you. 5 MR. STEVE JOSEPH: Steve Joseph**  **6 with Genesys Aerosystems. Our comments on 7 part 23, Appendix A, we feel that this is**  **8 unnecessary and is not really consistent 9 with the approach taken to the new rules.**  **10 There is -- you know, this information is 11 already captured in an ASTM document**  **12 F3117-2015, so we just feel that appendix is 13 unnecessary.**  **14 MR. BILL SCHINSTOCK: Okay. And 15 Appendix A is the ICA's Instructions For**  **16 Continued Airworthiness. Thank you. 17 Any other comments? So seeing no**  **18 other comments, I would like to offer if 19 somebody has a closing comment or a closing**  **20 presentation, that we would entertain those 21 now.**  **22 MR. RIC PERI: This is Ric Peri 23 with AEA. Kudos for the actions that have**  **24 taken place both from the agency's 25 perspective. Headquarters and rulemaking** Page 86 May 4, 2016

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### 1 perspective, I know that it has been a big **2 push for you, and also the industry who has 3 stepped up to this. The changes that are**  **4 taking place today in this rulemaking, most 5 of us will not see the results of it. It's**  **6 going to change some of the way those that 7 are in the tail end of their careers will**  **8 have to do things. The comfort level that 9 we have had for the last 30 years will be**  **10 challenged. I encourage the agency, the 11 employees, as well as the industry to**  **12 recognize the personal challenges that this 13 change is going to make and look at the next**  **14 generation and the following generations and 15 where this rule goes into the future, so**  **16 thank you. 17 MR. BILL SCHINSTOCK: Thank you,**  **18 Ric. You make some very good points. 19 MR. GREG BOWLES: Greg Bowles from**  **20 GAMA. So in closing I wanted to just 21 reemphasize the importance of the global**  **22 harmonization and making sure that some of 23 the rules that are not quite at the**  **24 objective level rule are worked in that 25 direction, and GAMA will submit global** Page 87 May 4, 2016

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### 1 comments before the 14th of this month to **2 address those in more details. 3 I wanted to pass on one example of**  **4 how we think this future rulemaking project 5 will be extremely beneficial. So before the**  **6 rules are even on the books yet, we have 7 been working as a global community towards**  **8 developing what could be means of compliance 9 towards these rules that the FAA has been**  **10 drafting and other regulators have been 11 drafting.**  **12 We had a discussion about low fuel 13 quantity sensing in one of these groups in**  **14 the beginning of January. Over the last 15 year, the FAA has a group called the --**  **16 well, it's a part of their safety team, but 17 they participate in the GA Joint Steering**  **18 Committee, which analyzes accidents and so 19 we all are aware of the accident Pareto**  **20 chart that the FAA often looks at for our 21 category of aircraft which indicates a loss**  **22 of control as the leading cause of fatal 23 accidents and the one thing that we are all**  **24 working hard to prevent. 25 The third cause of fatal accidents** Page 88 May 4, 2016

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### 1 on that chart historically has been systems **2 and component powerplant failure. Down the 3 chart to the seventh has been fuel**  **4 mismanagement. That is an accident where 5 the pilot is flying an aircraft and he flies**  **6 until he runs out of fuel and then can't 7 make an emergency landing so a true pilot**  **8 error accident. 9 When the FAA and NTSB reviewed**  **10 those accidents in the last year, they 11 realized that many of the accidents under**  **12 systems and component powerplant had been 13 miscoded and they were actually running out**  **14 of gas, running-out-of-fuel accidents versus 15 a problem with the powerplant.**  **16 As a result, the FAA on the 6th of 17 January, we put out a new chart that**  **18 indicated the third or fourth fatal cause of 19 accidents in this category of aircraft is**  **20 fuel exhaustion, running out of fuel in a 21 perfectly good airplane. On the very day**  **22 that happened, the standards group was 23 meeting and was able to vote into place a**  **24 new standard that would require low fuel 25 sensing on all future type certified** Page 89 May 4, 2016

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### 1 aircraft and that decision was based on what **2 was felt to be the benefit and the perceived 3 cost of putting those kinds of systems in**  **4 new type certificated aircraft in the 5 future. And so as a result, this seemed to**  **6 be a really interesting confluence where the 7 data for safety comes out, the industry is**  **8 able to react. And I hope that that is a 9 sign of things to come under this new**  **10 rulemaking. 11 MR. BILL SCHINSTOCK: Thank you.**  **12 Anything else? 13 MR. PAT MULLEN: So before, I**  **14 guess, we close out this meeting I thought 15 that it would be appropriate to talk a**  **16 little bit about changed management of this 17 rule and to let you know some of the**  **18 activities the agency's taking on. For as 19 many staff as we have supporting the**  **20 development of the Notice of Proposed 21 Rulemaking and then ultimately the final**  **22 rule, there is another dedicated staff of 23 employees who are working to develop the**  **24 training, not only for FAA employees, but 25 also for our ODAs, our unit members, our** Page 90 May 4, 2016

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### 1 DERs. **2 So I just wanted to make sure the 3 public and industry understood that we know**  **4 there is -- there is effort that has to be 5 put forward in moving this rule forward**  **6 after it's issued, making sure everyone is 7 up to speed on it and understands what all**  **8 the rules are. And that speaks for both our 9 own staff within the agency and your staff**  **10 within the industry. 11 We don't have anything additional**  **12 to say about changed management, but I have 13 my changed management specialist at the very**  **14 back of the room if anyone has any questions 15 about that.**  **16 MR. BILL SCHINSTOCK: So I guess I 17 would like to say that this rule is a -- is**  **18 a result of about a ten-year effort with 19 great participation and collaboration with**  **20 industry. And we would like to thank 21 industry for this collaborative effort on**  **22 the ARC and the preceding cert process 23 evaluation.**  **24 This rule addresses the part 23 25 aspects of those recommendations on how to** Page 91 May 4, 2016

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### 1 improve general aviation. It is not the **2 total effort that is being accomplished to 3 improve general aviation, but it is a big**  **4 step in the part 23 rule changes, so I just 5 wanted to at least point out that the ARC**  **6 has many other recommendations that the FAA 7 is considering, but at this point what we**  **8 are addressing are the part 23 changes. 9 Thank you. And thank you for your**  **10 participation here. Your comments and 11 feedback will help us refine our final rule**  **12 where it's appropriate and provide the 13 clarification where it's needed. And I do**  **14 appreciate -- and I think the team -- I 15 speak for the team when I say that we all**  **16 appreciate the feedback that you have given 17 us today to help us come up with a better**  **18 product. Thank you. 19 That concludes the meeting.**  **20 (Meeting concluded at 10:27 a.m.)**
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### 1 CERTIFICATE **2 COUNTY OF FULTON 3 STATE OF GEORGIA**  **4 I, Susan DeCarlo, Notary Public and 5 Certified Court Reporter, do hereby certify that**  **6 I reported in machine shorthand foregoing 7 proceedings on May 4, 2016, that the foregoing**  **8 pages, numbered from 1 to 91 inclusive, were 9 prepared under my personal supervision and**  **10 constitutes a true and correct record of the 11 proceedings.**  **12 This the 23rd of May 2016. 13** 

**____________________________ 14 Susan DeCarlo, Notary Public**  **and Certified Court Reporter 15 Commission Expires 10-12-2016**  **Certificate number 2125 16**  **17 18**  **19 20**  **21 22**  **23 24**  **25**Page 1 May 4, 2016

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