## Meeting June 10, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 1 ASRAC COMMERCIAL UNITARY AIR CONDITIONERS WORKING GROUP MEETING JUNE 10, 2015 A P P E A R A N C E S Karim Amrane, Ph.D. Mary Anderson James Battaglia David Branson - via webinar John Cymbalsky Andrew deLaski Jim del Toro - via webinar Chris Granda Jill C. Hootman Long Huang - via webinar Marshall Hunt Diane Jakobs - via webinar Michael Kito Steven Maddox - via webinar Michael J. McCabe Sam McClive - via webinar Charles McCrudden Karen Meyers Nicholas Mislak Raquel Neto Javier Ramirez

## Meeting June 10, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 2 1 Mike Rivest 2 Greg Rosenquist 3 Harvey Sachs, Ph.D. 4 Amy Shepherd 5 Michael Shows - via webinar 6 Louis Starr 7 Rusty Tharp 8 Meg Waltner - via webinar 9 Detlef Westphalen 10 Robert J. Whitwell 11 Linda Wilson - via webinar 12 Dave Winningham 13 Sami Zendah 14 15 16 17 18 19 AUDIO TRANSCRIBED BY KYLIE S. SHEPHERD 20 21 22 23 24 25

## Meeting June 10, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 3 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 MR. RAMIREZ: All right. Is everyone just about 3 ready to go? All right. Let's go ahead and get started. 4 And we're going to get started with introductions, just 5 for the record. 6 Javier Ramirez with Federal Mediation 7 MR. HERMOSILLO: Isael Hermosillo with FMCS. 8 MR. WHITWELL: Bob Whitwell with Carrier. 9 MS. HOOTMAN: Jill Hootman, Trane. 10 MR. MISLAK: Nick Mislak, AHRI. 11 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp with Goodman. 12 MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs, ACEEE. 13 MS. MEYERS: Karen Meyers, Rheem. 14 MR. WINNINGHAM: Dave Winningham, Allied Air. 15 MR. STARR: Louis Starr, Northwest Energy 16 Efficiency Alliance. 17 MR. HUNT: Marshall Hunt, PG&E and California 18 IOUs. 19 MS. ANDERSON: Mary Anderson, PG&E, California 20 IOUs. 21 MR. deLASKI: Andrew deLaski, Appliance 22 Standards Awareness Project. 23 MR. McCRUDDEN: Charlie McCrudden, Air 24 Conditioning Contractors of America. 25 MR. ZENDAH: Sami Zendah with Emerson.

## Meeting June 10, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 4 1 MR. KITO: Michael Kito, DOE. 2 MR. CYMBALSKY: John Cymbalsky, DOE. 3 MR. ROSENQUIST: Greg Rosenquist, LBNL. 4 MR. LAU: Chris Lau, Navigant. 5 MR. RIVEST: Mike Rivest, Navigant. 6 MS. NETO: Raquel Neto, Navigant. 7 MR. BATTAGLIA: James Battaglia, Navigant. 8 MR. AMRANE: Karim Amrane, AHRI. 9 MR. McCABE: Michael McCabe, consultant to 10 Trane. 11 MS. SHEPHERD: Amy Shepherd, AHRI. 12 MR. GRANDA: Chris Granda, ESAP. 13 MR. RAMIREZ: I'm sorry -- Detlef, you want 14 to -- for the record? 15 MR. WESTPHALEN: Detlef Westphalen. 16 MR. RAMIREZ: And then online we have Diane 17 Jakobs -- 18 MR. WESTPHALEN: Detlef, Navigant. 19 MR. RAMIREZ: Sorry. Online we have Diane 20 Jakobs, Jim del Toro, Linda Wilson, Long Huang, Meg 21 Waltner, Sam McClive, Steven Maddox, and Dave Branson. 22 All right. So let's get rolling into this. 23 I'll open up the floor for the industry group to share 24 with us what they've been working on. 25 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp with Goodman. So let me

## Meeting June 10, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 5 1 get back over here to my notes. First, we want to thank 2 everyone for waiting. I know we said we were going to 3 start at 9:30, and it's an hour late. 4 We've done an awful lot of talking, we did 5 gather early and have been discussing further the 6 information provided for, I would say, about three hours 7 this morning as well as some time last night. 8 I want to thank Navigant for the work that they 9 did in providing us some information on some of the 10 options. We want to, again, as everyone's aware, note 11 that this, regardless of the outcome, this will -- I 12 think it's our understanding it will be the second 13 largest reported estimated savings in DOE history. So 14 I've got -- this is the biggest? 15 (Off-the-record conversation.) 16 MR. RAMIREZ: Bob just had a few grimaces on his 17 face, but it's off-the-record banter. Okay. 18 MR. THARP: Okay. So actually I have 12 points. 19 Number 1, it's the second large -- first -- it is the 20 largest in history. 21 Number 2 is that part of that is the ventilation 22 energy. And so we think that, just the fact that we're 23 including in ventilation energy is a give from the 24 industry standpoint as we discuss these options. Reading 25 from the statute 42 U.S.C. 6311, definition 3, the term

## Meeting June 10, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 6 1 "energy efficiency" means the ratio of the useful output 2 of services from an article of industrial equipment to 3 the energy use by such article determined in accordance 4 with test procedures under Section 6314 of this title. 5 So we believe that it's a pretty significant 6 give to, at this point, be including ventilation energy 7 in the analysis in total. 8 Item point number 3 is the energy model that's 9 being used is the blast model. We feel it's an 10 antiquated software that's not available today. Our 11 preference would be to use other software that is used in 12 other understanding Pro Energy Plus is what DOE is using 13 and other programs internal to DOE, maybe not EERE. 14 There's not much transparency -- not as much transparency 15 as we'd like to see in that modeling. 16 Point number 4, there's the economizer 17 operation, economizer failures is another area where 18 industry feels that we're giving in this inclusion. 19 Number 5, the product life. We don't 20 necessarily agree with the changes that were made to the 21 product life, but we're going with it. That's a give on 22 our portion. 23 Number 6, the external static pressures where 24 we've jacked everything up to the higher values across 25 the board. Whereas we feel that as high as a third of

## Meeting June 10, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 7 1 the models are actually installed in big box style store 2 operation where the actual operating could even be less 3 than the test external static. 4 Number 7, we think that we're giving in the 5 shipments forecast. If you look at the shipment history 6 in the last decade and a half, it's relatively flat. And 7 be it the shipments forecast is projected to increase 8 over the next 30 years, we don't think that that's 9 necessarily accurate. 10 The base economic models that are given as far 11 as the retaining operating profit, operating margins, we 12 don't think that those are realistic as to what happens 13 in the world today, that's number 8. 14 Number 9, the employment levels, even after the 15 adjustments that were made, are still measurably off by a 16 factor of 2 to 3 still. So that would -- leads to much 17 greater impact than what would be estimated. 18 Number 10, our operating margins were 19 single-digit operating margins in this industry, and 20 we're taking it down to even significantly lower levels. 21 And when you're -- when you're talking of going from a 22 9 percent operating margin to a 7.1 percent operating 23 margin, that's -- which was our, you know, so our 24 proposal was basically cutting our operating margins by 25 almost 20 percent.

## Meeting June 10, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 8 1 Number 11, the product -- and this is something 2 that was discussed last night, verified with Navigant -- 3 that the product cost estimates that are given for each 4 specific level are based on the base case shipments. And 5 the reality is, as shipment volumes decrease, component 6 parts, raw materials, are going to increase. 7 So if we chose a level where, if today's base 8 case volume is 100,000 units per year, everything we're 9 buying is based on 100,000 units per year. What's costed 10 in the event that the shipments go down 75 percent or by 11 25 percent is that we're still buying 100,000 units per 12 year. But in reality, we're going to be buying 75,000 13 units a year, and so all the parts are going to cost more 14 for that level. And that metric is -- that delta is 15 going to get larger as the EL level goes up. That is not 16 taken into account in the current analysis. 17 There's been a lot of contraction in our 18 industry. One of the things we want to point out is just 19 that recently GE has gotten out of the business of white 20 goods. So here's a major company, major company that's 21 getting out of an industry because it's, you know, who 22 knows the exact reason why, but it's probably a 23 significant portion of it. 24 How do I just -- myself, I've worked for six 25 different companies, but three of those other companies

## Meeting June 10, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 9 1 bought the other three. So in reality, I've only worked 2 for three companies. But that happens, you know, so 3 companies buy each other. My company was actually bought 4 by -- so I work for Goodman, which was purchased by 5 Daikin a couple of years ago. So this contraction is -- 6 is real. 7 So that said, in responding to the advocates 8 last counter-offer, on the furnaces, we agree to the -- 9 the 81 percent. I guess we think that's not necessarily 10 a give. It is -- 81 percent is really what the numbers 11 say where it should go. And that 81 percent would be 12 going into effect with the air conditioning time frame. 13 On -- we agree to the EER where AHRI commits to 14 continue its process of verifying the values that are 15 submitted to AHRI by its members. 16 Third point, on the test method, we agree that 17 there should be a -- some time frames set on the test 18 method revision to include modifying the IEER for 19 ventilation energy. We agree that starting by January 20 1st of 2016 is good. We do think that with the total 21 process, everything else going on, that January 1st of 22 2019 instead of 2018 would be a target completion date. 23 Along with that on the test method, Sub-point A 24 is that we think that these products that we're 25 discussing now, the CUACs and CWAFs, should be not

## Meeting June 10, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 10 1 included in the commercial industrial fans and blowers. 2 Sub-point B on test method is that we would add 3 in that we will work with -- we will try to push -- once 4 that test method is complete, we will try to work with 5 ASHRAE and everybody at this table to get that metric 6 included in ASHRAE 90.1. 7 On the phase 1, we have pretty much agreed that 8 that goes into ASHRAE 90.1 values in 2018 that there's no 9 change there. So then as we get to the big kahuna here 10 on the phase 2, we'd like to point out that, you know, 11 our initial offer was 12.2, and while the advocates 12 position is as stated is that the 16.3 of EL-3 was sort 13 of the target, for all of the reasons we discussed 14 mentioned a minute ago, we really don't think that that's 15 the best target to be basing things off of. But note 16 that the advocates came down 0.9 quads, and our counter 17 is coming up, I believe it's 1.3 quads. 18 So we propose to keep the values to go in effect 19 in 2024, that the small equipment would be at 2.5, which 20 is the same as our prior offer, and we would move the 21 large up to 3.0. We will move the very large up from 2 22 to 2.5, and that gives -- with 2024 implementation -- 23 that gives 13.5 quads of savings based on the information 24 that Greg has provided. 25 So as we talked -- so we've done an awful lot of

## Meeting June 10, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 11 1 talking. In reality, there is not full consensus, 2 there's not unanimity, and I have to reword that word, 3 unanimity within the industry. But there are 4 manufacturers willing to live with that. 5 So I guess at this point, turn to my members to 6 add in anything -- anything that I might have missed or 7 any additional comments from industry before we take any 8 questions. 9 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, thanks, Rusty. This is Bob 10 Whitwell from Carrier. So just adding to what Rusty 11 said, there -- we see that the analysis, although we've 12 worked over the last month or so to improve it, there are 13 still lots of concerns that we have with the analysis. 14 And in the end, the -- the quads, there's -- they're 15 not -- it's not precise. There's some directional -- we 16 can take it as a directional value or indicator of 17 direction. 18 There's huge savings as you pointed out, 13.5 19 quads is -- is a huge number. I don't know if it's 20 number 1 or number 2, but anyway, it's a huge number. So 21 just wanted to add that that, you know, we're not looking 22 at precise precision as we look at this analysis and the 23 quad savings. So just keep that in mind, you know, as 24 you think about our proposal. 25 MR. deLASKI: Just one clarifying question,

## Meeting June 10, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 12 1 Rusty. When you say the -- I just can't follow your 2 math -- the advocates, I don't understand your claim the 3 advocates came down .9 quads. 4 MR. THARP: Okay. Well, that came from the 5 offer yesterday was 15.4 quads; is that correct? And the 6 TSL-3 from the sheet yesterday is 16.3. 7 MR. deLASKI: Yeah, we were at 19.6. Our last 8 offer was TSL-4, so I had a little different math than 9 you. 10 MR. THARP: So that .9 wasn't from the prior 11 offer, that was actually from the TSL-3. So that's the 12 delta there. So thank you for clarifying that, I 13 apologize for that statement. 14 MR. deLASKI: Just to restate that, our offer 15 yesterday, compared to where our initial offer was, is a 16 reduction in savings of 2.4 quads in the analysis, 17 subject to the uncertainty that Bob rightly points out. 18 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. And it's really a 19 tangential issue, and I very much appreciate your 20 bringing up all the sources of uncertainty. 21 It's my understanding from the press that 22 General Electric's decision is one of two strategic 23 moves; one to reduce its exposure on the finance side 24 where you've been a very major player, and the other is 25 to move entirely out of consumer goods into industrial

## Meeting June 10, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 13 1 goods to return to its original -- an original focus on 2 industrial goods. And that industry is vastly more 3 consolidated than -- than your industry. 4 So I think recognizing the consolidation that 5 has happened in this one, I -- I still just want to 6 clarify that I don't think GE suffered a -- a lack of 7 arrogance -- self-confidence that it could compete in 8 this industry that it no longer fitted the new CEO's 9 strategic direction. 10 MR. deLASKI: And of course, we probably 11 shouldn't talk too much about GE since it seems a little 12 bit far out of field. But Electrolux, who's purchasing 13 the company, is no shrinking violet. 14 So I suggest that we need -- we should caucus, 15 unless there's other clarifying questions or -- 16 MR. CYMBALSKY: I had one, this is John from 17 DOE. You mentioned the fans and blowers in -- as a 18 sub-bullet to the test procedure action. I guess I 19 wasn't clear exactly how your words lined up with the 20 test procedure for the follow-on work here. 21 MS. HOOTMAN: So if we're going to change the 22 test procedure such that we're including something for 23 fan and fan energy, we don't feel it needs to be 24 double-regulated, nor double-counted, nor regulated under 25 commercial fans and blowers. It would be a system metric

## Meeting June 10, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 14 1 that would include fans. And so therefore, it should not 2 be covered under -- 3 MR. CYMBALSKY: So your -- 4 MS. HOOTMAN: -- commercial fans and blowers. 5 MR. CYMBALSKY: Your request is per action in a 6 different docket if I'm understanding that; is that 7 correct? 8 MS. HOOTMAN: That's correct. 9 MR. CYMBALSKY: And in a docket that would 10 conclude prior to this thing even kicking off? 11 MS. HOOTMAN: Possibly. Not a working group, 12 but the docket would, yes. 13 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yeah, so I -- 14 MS. HOOTMAN: But some of the very same people 15 are in that one. 16 MR. CYMBALSKY: No, I get that. But I don't 17 think anyone at this table's prepared to agree to that. 18 I'm just going to state that up front. 19 MS. HOOTMAN: Well -- well, we're not -- we 20 would be -- 21 MR. CYMBALSKY: It's a different -- 22 MS. HOOTMAN: We would be very hesitant in 23 opening up that test metric and including that fan energy 24 if it looks like it's going to get also regulated -- 25 MR. CYMBALSKY: So I don't --

## Meeting June 10, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 15 1 MS. HOOTMAN: -- under commercial fans and 2 blowers. 3 MR. CYMBALSKY: We don't want to double-count 4 anything. Let's -- I want to be clear about that. 5 MS. HOOTMAN: But if I'm going to pull that fan 6 out and I've got to test it in a separate metric -- 7 MR. CYMBALSKY: Right. 8 MS. HOOTMAN: -- I have way more increased test 9 burden, and I design my units completely differently now. 10 So I don't know that I'm at the table any longer for 11 changing the test metric. 12 MR. WINNINGHAM: And this is Dave at Allied Air. 13 To that point, John, then we need to go back and really 14 take a look at, we're taking many of the things we've 15 done here, as far as including ventilation air, including 16 increasing the static pressure out of this energy 17 savings. 18 MR. CYMBALSKY: No, so I think -- so I think 19 we've -- we're doing stuff here that's going to impact 20 the other docket. I guess that's the point I'm trying to 21 make. 22 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey -- 23 MR. deLASKI: From a process point of view, I 24 mean, what I -- the problem is that we don't have -- this 25 committee doesn't have portfolio.

## Meeting June 10, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 16 1 MR. WINNINGHAM: No, but there are -- 2 MR. deLASKI: Now, there's overlapping 3 membership. 4 MR. WINNINGHAM: -- overlapping membership, 5 right. 6 MR. deLASKI: There are many people that are in 7 that working group that are not in this working group. 8 So I -- you know, we'll caucus, you know. But I'm not 9 going to -- 10 MS. HOOTMAN: I think if this -- if these 11 members went to that section, went to that group and also 12 supported it, it would be a done deal. 13 MR. SACHS: Okay. This is Harvey. I'm 14 interrupting, I do that once in a while. 15 It seems to me that this can be resolved through 16 contingency language, which basically, in the term sheet 17 says these organizations and those they represent believe 18 that this is a good idea and commit to working toward 19 that end if that eventuates in the fans reg/neg, then 20 this is released to go forward on the -- on the test 21 measure. 22 So it has a contingency that allows us not to 23 feel either committed to the IEER revision under all 24 circumstances or otherwise get locked in. So that would 25 be my suggestion is just trying to -- if that would be

## Meeting June 10, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 17 1 acceptable as a way of resolving this thing. 2 MR. deLASKI: So I think our groups should talk 3 before we go any further. What I don't know -- and maybe 4 this is a question -- so you've introduced the feature 5 that we all knew going into this that there was this 6 overlap between these two discussions, these two working 7 groups, and you've now explicitly tied them. So here we 8 are. 9 So I don't know whether the department, which is 10 at this table, could even accept such a recommendation. 11 And I don't know -- so I think that was John -- what I'm 12 hearing underneath of John's remark. So whether ASRAC, 13 the parent committee, we're going outside of our -- we 14 would be going outside of our assigned portfolio. 15 So is there a mechanism to do that? I don't 16 even know. But let us talk and then we'll -- we'll get 17 back. 18 MR. RAMIREZ: Andrew, just for the folks online, 19 about ballpark, how much time do you think you need? 20 MS. MEYERS: So -- but before we end, you know, 21 the last working group that I participated in was 22 enforcement of regional standards, and our whole terms 23 sheet was contingent upon the test procedure guidance 24 being released by DOE that would clarify how you rated a 25 product.

## Meeting June 10, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 18 1 So I don't know why you think we can't tie this 2 contingency, as Harvey said, to our terms sheet. We've 3 done it in the past. I think we did it even an AEDMs, 4 although I can't remember the specific issue. But we 5 have done this. We have tied a term sheet based upon a 6 contingency. These things are moving at very close to 7 the same pace, so I -- I think that we can definitely put 8 a contingency on the terms sheet. 9 MR. deLASKI: Half an hour. 10 MR. RAMIREZ: Thank you, Andrew. So we'll be 11 back at quarter after. 12 (Recess taken.) 13 MR. RAMIREZ: All right. This is mainly for the 14 folks online, but also you all as well. But they -- it 15 looks like they're going to try to get a proposal and 16 they want to have it to you all before lunch. 17 The timing on that, I'm not exactly certain, but 18 maybe about another 15 minutes. So hang out, as soon as 19 they give it to us, then we'll have a working lunch. 20 Then we can break then. Okay? Thank you. 21 (Recess taken.) 22 MR. RAMIREZ: All right. Let's go ahead and get 23 started back up here. And I understand that the advocate 24 group is ready now to present a proposal. And Andrew, we 25 were told that you were out there polishing it up so that

## Meeting June 10, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 19 1 you could do as good a job as Rusty did in presenting 2 his, so let's -- 3 MR. deLASKI: Three hours. 4 MR. RAMIREZ: All right. So Andrew, whenever 5 you're ready. 6 MR. deLASKI: Okay. So thank you, and thank you 7 to the industry caucus for your counter-proposal this 8 morning. And I appreciate that, you know, it's a 9 difficult process for you to improve your offer. 10 And Rusty, I'm not going to try to go back 11 through your list of, what did you have, 11? You were 12 counting them off -- 13 MR. THARP: 12. 14 MR. deLASKI: A dozen, not a bakers dozen, but a 15 dozen. You know, and I think we're at the point where 16 we're accepting the analysis with all of its warts as a 17 basis for negotiation. And, you know, if we don't get 18 the consensus, we'll continue to slug it out over that 19 and DOE will make their decision. 20 I'm pretty confident that the analysis will 21 support a standard at least as strong as the NOPR in 22 2019, and maybe better. So that's kind of where I'm 23 personally at, what I -- you know, tea leaves, as I've 24 said, there's lots of different factors out there. 25 There's threats of litigation, there's threats of going

## Meeting June 10, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 20 1 to the hill, you know, be that as it may, that's not what 2 we're here to negotiate. 3 So we think the analysis is a reasonable, we 4 think it's done as DOE analyses are typically done in 5 terms of taking into account the actual field energy 6 consumption as opposed to consumption under the test 7 method and has been the case for 30-odd years. I 8 shouldn't say for 30-odd years. I should say for as long 9 as I've been doing it, since I don't know the experience 10 before then as closely, which is 15. 11 So I think the analysis is a good basis for this 12 discussion, and I think we all accept it as a basis, 13 imperfect as it may be for this discussion, this 14 negotiation. 15 You know, we came into this discussion -- into 16 this negotiation, you know, as I described yesterday, 17 looking for ways to get to win-wins. Right, outcomes 18 that are better for industry, we do share costs, but yet 19 still deliver, you know, the benefit that we would expect 20 from the NOPR. 21 And, you know, it's a better way to get to the 22 public policy objectives of energy savings and the 23 national economic benefits, the energy system benefits, 24 the CO2 reductions and other environmental benefits that 25 come with the standards if we all can get around a table

## Meeting June 10, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 21 1 and, you know, shoot for that target, but do it in a way 2 that is going to be less burdensome from industry than if 3 DOE did it on their own, right, that's why we've been 4 working at. 5 So that continues to be our framing for this in 6 how we approach this task. So let me -- so we'll respond 7 to your -- to the point starting in the same order as you 8 presented them. 9 On furnaces, I think we've got a consensus 10 tentative to the overall package, and, you know, the 11 thing that you all outlined for us from our very early 12 meetings was a desire to align effective dates. And 13 we've heard energy has a lot of testing burden on 14 furnaces, it's a tough-to-test product, and a tough to, 15 you know, so I think the additional time on that product 16 is something that I -- I believe that you value and that 17 we believe has been an important development in this 18 negotiation to align those -- that date with the late -- 19 with the phase 2 on air conditioners. 20 On EER, I think we have consensus there. 21 There's been some wordsmithing Marshall shared around 22 some text there. I think we're at the point of trying to 23 get down to the words down to what will be the specific 24 phrasing in a terms sheet. But you all have seen that, 25 Marshall shared -- I think it went around.

## Meeting June 10, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 22 1 MR. CYMBALSKY: I'm sorry, this is John. For 2 some reason, I'm not on his e-mail list. So I haven't -- 3 I actually didn't get that. 4 MR. deLASKI: You don't know a lot, then. 5 MR. CYMBALSKY: But I did -- I did take what 6 Marshall wrote and rewrote it in DOE acceptable words. 7 MR. deLASKI: So we hope that you'll consider 8 that language and that would be our proposed proposal on 9 how to tackle that. 10 MR. WINNINGHAM: Don't want to interrupt here. 11 We have some questions around that, but we can talk about 12 that following. 13 MR. deLASKI: Okay. On the test method, we do 14 want to see this test method completed in a timely way. 15 We think it's important that it get done sooner rather 16 than later as I expressed yesterday. 17 However, we also want it done right, so we can 18 accept your notion of doing -- having that -- so the 19 framing would be that DOE shall initiate a rule-making by 20 next January and shall complete it, issue a final rule by 21 January 1st, 2019. So we're accepting your proposal for 22 a year more time for that. 23 Let me skip over fans and blowers for a moment. 24 With respect to -- we had a clarifying -- a question for 25 you to clarify, which is, you said as your item 3B, at

## Meeting June 10, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 23 1 least the way I number it, test method B, that you would 2 work to get the metric into 90.1. So I guess we wanted a 3 little more clarification for you, what you had in mind 4 there and what your objective was. 5 MR. THARP: You want that now? 6 MR. deLASKI: Yeah. 7 MR. THARP: So the idea would be to -- whatever 8 procedure, whether it's a combined metric or a separate 9 metric, whatever comes out of that -- although most of 10 the industry is in line with a single metric for 11 mechanical cooling and ventilation energy. 12 So whatever that would be, maybe we come out 13 with IEER Sub-B or something of that nature. Whatever 14 that metric would be, we would try to get that into 15 ASHRAE 90.1 so that there would be some requirements in 16 90.1 for especially for new buildings, so that that would 17 be semi-regulated for the building code aspects sooner 18 rather than later. 19 Because, as what we discussed was that the 20 intent long term would be for this revised IEER, IEER 21 Sub-B would be what would be discussed at the next 22 rule-making for CUACs. But we would try to get that 23 implemented sooner via ASHRAE 90.1. 24 MR. WHITWELL: Like we did for IEER? Okay. 25 MR. deLASKI: Well, that -- it raised the

## Meeting June 10, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 24 1 question for us, you know, introducing the ASHRAE topic. 2 And Marshall, do you want to follow up with your -- your 3 question? 4 MR. HUNT: Yeah, this is Marshall Hunt, PG&E. 5 So for being able to do any kind of simulations and for 6 building code, EER is very, very helpful. 7 Right now, ASHRAE does have an EER/IEER pair, as 8 was clarified, so I don't know what's going to happen in 9 the future. But I don't want to tie our hands that we 10 might -- I would -- until convinced otherwise, I would 11 want EER and IEER, whether it's A, Sub-A or Sub-B. 12 MS. HOOTMAN: We would still leave EER in there. 13 MR. HUNT: Thank you. 14 MS. HOOTMAN: EER would always be in there in 15 ASHRAE. This would be just redefining IEER just like we 16 went from IPOV to IEER. And that before that was ever 17 defined by the government, this -- you know, that would 18 go to IEER Sub-B, it would be accepted by building codes, 19 it would have early adoption, essentially on the new 20 construction site before DOE would likely come in with a 21 regulation beyond what we're negotiating here. 22 MR. HUNT: Thank you. 23 MS. HOOTMAN: So what it's saying is that 24 there's a transition period and you would have some 25 priming of the pump, shall we say.

## Meeting June 10, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 25 1 MR. HUNT: Well, that priming of the pump is 2 what we call code-readiness, and we've put millions of 3 dollars into the upstream rebate programs and really want 4 to keep doing that. We get strong support from public 5 utilities commissions, so thank you. 6 MR. deLASKI: Okay. 7 MR. THARP: Does that mean you accept 3B? Or -- 8 MR. deLASKI: Yeah, I think, you know, subject 9 to wordsmithing, you know, to make sure we address 10 Marshall's concern. 11 With respect to sort of the overall three, the 12 test methods, we have on timing and I think another 13 question here was scope. So when we've expressed this, 14 the scope was to address -- to better address fan energy 15 consumption. But then I also have other topics. So if 16 other -- if other parties bring other -- I guess I don't 17 want to close -- I don't want to limit the scope of this. 18 If other good topics should be addressed in this 19 time frame, then they should be addressed. You don't 20 want to do it sequentially again. You've got a 21 three-year rule-making. I would not -- I would not want 22 to see it limited to just fin energy, because, you know, 23 if there's other things that should be addressed in the 24 same time frame, then you would want to do it then as 25 well.

## Meeting June 10, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 26 1 So I don't know whether your proposal meant to 2 say the scope is fan energy and fan energy only or 3 whether that was -- because when you said it, you said to 4 address fan energy. So the question was: Did you mean 5 that to be exclusive, to prohibit addressing anything 6 else, or is the scope -- 7 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp with Goodman. I think 8 the intent was ventilation energy. 9 MR. deLASKI: Yeah. 10 MR. THARP: And there's -- so there's -- it's 11 basically the non-mechanical cooling energy that the RTU, 12 as shipped without accessories, consumes. 13 MR. deLASKI: You know, I don't know -- I 14 mean -- go ahead, Louis. You want to comment? 15 MR. STARR: So this is Louis with NEEA. I mean, 16 in general, I guess sort of what I thought about when DOE 17 looks at the test procedure, they'll probably look at 18 every aspect of the test procedure anyway. 19 So in other words, they would look to see, is 20 the static pressure an adequate number, is the 21 ventilation mode really captured. And so probably they 22 would look at all of that anyway. And I personally think 23 there might be some other elements that might need to be 24 added, and I don't even know what they are. 25 But it's just kind of going back and thinking

## Meeting June 10, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 27 1 about maybe more elements needed to be added into that -- 2 that test metric to really get a better idea of the real 3 performance of the equipment. And so more it's just -- 4 we'd prefer to leave that broad in terms of getting 5 specifics of what might or might be incorrect about the 6 test procedure. 7 So I don't know. I mean, I would fear that, you 8 know, just from a real practical standpoint that if you 9 just limited it to one thing, you might end up with a 10 metric that's not really good; right? Just from a pure 11 engineering point, I would worry about that. 12 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp with Goodman again. So 13 this is -- the details we're talking about now are really 14 more outside what we discussed as an industry. 15 So I'm speaking it now for myself and my company 16 as opposed to everybody else, but I think we would be 17 onboard with not -- not a narrow scope. So keeping it 18 open, to me, as I think about that sort of lends to the 19 AHRI system steering committee, some of the work that it 20 is doing to encompass the entire building as an envelope 21 in considering the system and the system effects. And so 22 I think that -- I think we're -- I think we're in -- 23 MR. deLASKI: Yeah, our notion on three years 24 is, you know, trying -- is to allow time to address, you 25 know, that's going to be the people working on the test

## Meeting June 10, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 28 1 method. And I don't want to sort of tie their hands 2 because of some discussion we had here today, right, that 3 ultimately would be -- that we could regret. 4 MS. HOOTMAN: Well, good point, Andrew, that, 5 yeah, it's more than the minds here and all of the things 6 that go into it. So yeah, I don't really want to say yes 7 or no or what's in scope or out of scope. 8 But I do have a huge concern, and it would mean 9 that the testing -- that there is no new testing 10 required. If we have to go back and retest all of our 11 models to some new metric, you can take that numbers that 12 they have and quadruple them. 13 MR. deLASKI: So you mean no new testing to 14 comply with the new -- with the current regulatory 15 environment, you know, the tests that would be 16 required -- 17 MS. HOOTMAN: Or new test value then has some 18 numbers or some methodology in it that has some 19 requirements and it might very well be static pressure. 20 If I have to take all these models back into a 21 test room, you can quadruple or 5 times those numbers, 22 and industry takes about six years to get that done. 23 MR. deLASKI: Right. And you would have to do 24 that when, for -- we're talking about doing -- that would 25 have to happen for the next iteration. Meaning, not this

## Meeting June 10, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 29 1 standard, the one that's going to happen sometime well 2 after 2025. 3 MR. WHITWELL: But it would have to start before 4 that, Andrew, so we would have an idea. 5 MR. deLASKI: So I understand -- 6 MS. HOOTMAN: What that idea is. 7 MR. deLASKI: But this test revision is going to 8 kick that -- is going to -- 9 MS. HOOTMAN: We would have to do it as soon as 10 you define it because then we would know, be able to tell 11 you whether we can do new models. All of our simulation 12 models have to get redone, all our ADEMs have to get 13 redone. So what's in scope and what's out of scope, I 14 really worry about anything that would start to add to 15 more test -- to a different test. 16 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, I mean, I think about it -- 17 MS. HOOTMAN: All those tests. 18 MR. WHITWELL: -- the IEER metric is already 19 adding more testing, right -- 20 MS. HOOTMAN: It did. 21 MR. WHITWELL: -- because you have four points 22 that you have to test at, as opposed to the one for the 23 EER. So we're already adding some more to that. 24 So the hope would be that we can, within that, 25 take the measure -- take data that will help us to get

## Meeting June 10, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 30 1 the -- quantify the ventilation energy; right? 2 So, you know, we just have to be careful about 3 adding additional burden by expanding -- depends, right, 4 by expanding the test procedure changes too far. 5 MR. deLASKI: And that requires of course this 6 test method proceeding will be conducted like any other 7 DOE test method proceeding. They're going to have to, 8 you know, the parties -- the people involved are going to 9 make those points and weigh these things back and forth. 10 I don't want to -- I don't think we're going to 11 predetermine these things right now. I just want to make 12 sure that we're casting the scope that's sufficiently 13 broad. 14 MR. SACHS: That is Harvey -- 15 MS. HOOTMAN: I'm just saying, I can't sign up 16 for anything that would start to get those -- 17 MR. deLASKI: And I don't want to take it off 18 the table, so I don't think we're kind of like signing up 19 for anything other than the DOE initiated rule-making. 20 So again, the term sheet -- what I would suggest is the 21 term sheet would say something along the lines that DOE 22 shall initiate a rule-making by January 1st, 2016, it 23 shall refine a rule by January 1st, 2019 to address 24 ventilation energy consumption and, you know, other 25 topics.

## Meeting June 10, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 31 1 MS. HOOTMAN: Okay. 2 MR. SACHS: I'd like to just sort of add to it. 3 The lessons learned a couple years ago in the 4 certification reg/neg that we certainly would hope that 5 we can use what we've learned to build on the basic model 6 concepts and allow more qualifications and certifications 7 through simulations rather than dragging all this steel 8 into the lab. 9 MS. HOOTMAN: So I agree, Harvey, but there are 10 constructs of going that I can see that would mean I have 11 to redo my simulation models. So if I have to go back 12 and retest to redo my simulation models, it even then 13 starts to get very hairy. 14 MR. SACHS: Jill, I hear you. And I think what 15 Andrew and -- if I could put words around what Andrew's 16 saying, we're talking ventilation and leaving the rest of 17 the wording a bit nebulous right now. 18 MS. HOOTMAN: And I agree with his wording. 19 MR. deLASKI: Okay. So that's -- 20 MR. SACHS: But I haven't forgotten the number 21 crunching. 22 MR. deLASKI: So I hope we have a verging 23 consensus on that point. 24 MS. MEYERS: So Andrew, a question. So when 25 this new method of tests, et cetera, is finalized, are

## Meeting June 10, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 32 1 you -- is it going to be a new metric or a revised metric 2 and that will be the only metric that is regulated, or 3 are you looking at two metrics? 4 MR. deLASKI: No. Okay. There's two different 5 questions. Let me answer your question -- I'm not sure 6 what the question is, so let me -- if your question is -- 7 let me just tell you how I envision it, and maybe see if 8 that will answer your question. 9 MS. MEYERS: Okay. 10 MR. deLASKI: So that there would be a 11 revised -- so a revised metric would be developed, IEER 12 Sub-B, or maybe it's something different. Rusty 13 intimated that maybe we come up with something that, you 14 know, is something different. 15 But that, then, it would be -- so it would go 16 into the Code of Federal Regulations as, you know, a test 17 method as the other one still exists in the CFR. So you 18 test to the current one for the standards that we're 19 negotiating now. So it's IEER Sub-B would be my -- my 20 expectation. 21 MS. HOOTMAN: And then, I think as we discussed 22 yesterday that the two test metrics can be out there with 23 some overlap or something -- 24 MR. deLASKI: Yeah. 25 MS. HOOTMAN: -- is what was in clothes dryers

## Meeting June 10, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 33 1 or whatever it was? 2 MR. deLASKI: Right. 3 MS. HOOTMAN: And so the second one would have 4 some overlap, and you would choose which one you are 5 testing to. Is that what you are saying? Or at some 6 time the other one kicks in? 7 MR. deLASKI: At some point at some time, the 8 other one kicks in. The mechanics of saying you choose 9 which one you test to, I'm not familiar with. 10 MS. HOOTMAN: Okay. 11 MR. deLASKI: Okay. So that seems to me to be a 12 different -- I don't know the answer to that. Because 13 the standard is the standard; right? So -- 14 MS. HOOTMAN: Right, but if you have a phase 15 overtiming, I guess I'm thinking of a phrase overtiming 16 you have all these products that you've gone along and 17 they're tested to this one. And then now, this phase 18 over is happening and it's usually by a manufacturer 19 date. 20 So you know, you have stuff literally in 21 inventory that is out there that will literally be by an 22 old test metric plus maybe new test metric. Is that what 23 happened in -- is it clothes dryers? I can't -- 24 MR. CYMBALSKY: So this is John from DOE. So my 25 recollection is, how we did it was for stuff that was

## Meeting June 10, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 34 1 already tested, it was to the old one. If you were 2 introducing new models -- this might not be specific to 3 the clothes dryer one -- you had to use the new test 4 procedure at that point. Right, for clothes dryers, the 5 new one wasn't required, you could use it, but it wasn't 6 required until the compliance date of the new test 7 procedure -- the new standard. 8 MR. deLASKI: Voluntarily, you could voluntarily 9 use it? 10 MR. CYMBALSKY: Right, but if you were 11 introducing new models and you said, "I don't want to 12 retest it again in another" -- so the better option would 13 be to use the new test procedure because you're 14 introducing new models. 15 MS. MEYERS: Okay. So that's helpful, but I'm 16 still just a little bit off. So the step 2 that we're 17 negotiating as an IEER level, but we would finalize a new 18 test procedure with some new metric in 2019. 19 So I'm trying to figure out, its got this new 20 metric, but we have a negotiated standard on a step 2 21 with an IEER. So how do we get from Point A to Point B 22 in those five -- 23 MR. deLASKI: Not until much later. 24 MALE SPEAKER: Beyond those -- 25 MALE SPEAKER: Beyond that.

## Meeting June 10, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 35 1 MS. MEYERS: So even though it's -- so even 2 though you finalize this test procedure in, say, 2019, 3 you're not required to -- 4 MR. CYMBALSKY: Until the next set of standards. 5 That's the way we've done it in the past. 6 MS. MEYERS: So it would be post the step 2. 7 Thank you. 8 MR. deLASKI: We heard you that you wanted a 9 test method done first. 10 MR. HUNT: This is Marshall Hunt, PG&E. Rusty, 11 I have a clarifying question. You said "accessories," so 12 what kind of things are accessories? And for me, the 13 elephant in the room is the economizer. 14 MR. THARP: Yes. 15 MR. RAMIREZ: Rusty, is your mic on? 16 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp, Goodman. I guess that 17 would be -- I guess that would be something that the -- I 18 think the group would have to address as they come -- 19 come with it. 20 MR. deLASKI: Do we have to address it now or 21 can we leave it open or can we live with that? 22 Because -- big deal for me. 23 MR. THARP: As part of the commercial 24 certification, I mean, we've -- the agreement from the 25 commercial certification was that several of the

## Meeting June 10, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 36 1 components would not be included in the testing as long 2 as the product was available without the accessory; 3 correct? 4 So what would need to be addressed is how you 5 account for the energy consumption of any accessory 6 items. And that's where really where I tend -- it tends 7 to go back to the AHRI steering committee and other 8 things of that nature where they're working on how to 9 account for those types of things. 10 MR. HUNT: Thank you. 11 MR. deLASKI: Let me keep going here. So on the 12 fans, this is a really difficult topic. We don't -- 13 we're -- we're -- we're a little perturbed -- I say a lot 14 perturbed now to see to try to link these two 15 negotiations since we're not -- we don't have everybody 16 from that negotiation here in this room. I don't think 17 so, Bob. 18 MR. WHITWELL: Sorry, I misunderstood what you 19 said. 20 MR. deLASKI: And even -- even within our -- 21 even -- there are additional parties, entities that 22 aren't here. And the individuals aren't the same. Okay? 23 Whether it be from my organization or several of the 24 others, we don't have them sort of here. But I think the 25 more important issue is that we don't have a lot of the

## Meeting June 10, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 37 1 entities who are part of that negotiation. 2 We hear your point, though. Okay? And you've 3 been making it repeatedly. We understand the arguments, 4 we make our counter-arguments, but we don't need to 5 revisit them today. 6 I don't know the mechanics of how we would 7 handle this. Harvey floated an idea. Those of us in the 8 advocates caucus are prepared to, what we think is a huge 9 concession on this point, and making this concession in 10 the interest of getting an agreement on air conditioners. 11 It's a -- it's a -- it's a desire to make this 12 docket, which is, you know, we think we're very close to 13 getting to an agreement. We want to make it happen. 14 Okay? 15 So to make it happen, we're willing to make 16 this -- what we think is a major concession and one that 17 I think goes a long way to addressing the regulatory 18 burden that you have continued to describe and to 19 emphasize. 20 So the concept, and it's -- we would need some 21 time to work together for it to work out the mechanics of 22 it, and I'm not convinced that we can, but here's the 23 conceptually. 24 The advocates who are here, part of our caucus, 25 can agree to an approach that would say that fans which

## Meeting June 10, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 38 1 have their energy efficiency covered or represented in 2 the IEER metric would not be required to comply with the 3 fan regulation. We could live with that kind of outcome, 4 those of us who are here, right. 5 So I can't speak for the fan reg, for that 6 working group, but I can speak for the five of us who are 7 in this part of -- who are sitting here with you today. 8 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. And there's been 9 some sort of quiet questioning, and so I think it may be 10 worth just emphasizing that we are with you in concept 11 that if a fan is just -- "just," in parenthesis -- a 12 component of a regulated -- a product regulated in this 13 rule-making, then it should not have to be separately 14 certified. Obviously, there's a lot of detail and nuance 15 if -- 16 MR. deLASKI: I don't want to do -- 17 MR. SACHS: We don't want to get into. 18 MR. deLASKI: And there's a group working on 19 that, neither Harvey nor I are part of that group. Louis 20 is, you know, so we have -- Meg is, but I don't want to 21 negotiate the terms of that. 22 But I gave you a principle and how that 23 principle is applied, I think, I would look one: Can 24 that working group live with it? And two: How they 25 would apply it.

## Meeting June 10, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 39 1 And I, for one, and we as a caucus, are 2 extremely concerned about -- there's two issues here. 3 One is that there are millions of fans that go into -- 4 this is a lot of fans in the stock, right, so it's a lot 5 of efficiency. That's why you care about it in part, 6 because there's a lot of fans. And we care about it 7 because there's a lot of energy consumption. We are 8 optimistic that this test method is a way to address it. 9 And -- but the -- what I also don't want to end 10 up with, and again, it's not something to negotiate 11 today, but is a fan rule doesn't work for the other fans 12 because we end up with a loophole that a truck can go 13 through, right. So you know, how do we -- and I think 14 you guys were supposed to come back with a proposal to 15 the fan working group -- I wasn't there -- on how you 16 would do that, how you would define these fans in a way 17 that was loophole-proof, but I guess that's work to be 18 done. Okay? 19 So continuing along, phase 1, we have consensus 20 on that. Phase 2, so where we started out this week was 21 with a proposal that would save 17.1 quads, that was the 22 advocates proposal. This was outlined in the slides that 23 DOE presented yesterday. 24 We're at a proposal that would save -- I'm 25 sorry, I'm looking at the slide 11, I was quoting the net

## Meeting June 10, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 40 1 present value at 7 percent. The quads were 18.2 quads 2 from our proposal, slide 11 from yesterday. And the 3 industry proposal was worth, once you corrected for the 4 fact that it was EL-2.0 for the small, was worth 12.1 5 quads. And that -- we reframed it yesterday, so let's 6 shoot for a target that's at least as good as the NOPR, 7 and that number was 16.3. 8 So I think you hopefully had that target in mind 9 when you were meeting yesterday. We came back with a 10 counter-proposal yesterday that under the DOE analysis 11 would save 15.4 quads by reducing our proposal to 3.5 -- 12 EL-3.5 across the board. And we argued, and I think, you 13 know, were persuaded, that that proposal was worth 14 considerably more than 15.4 quads. 15 My argument is that it's closer to -- that that 16 gave us -- we were pretty confident that that level at 17 EL-3.5 would yield savings close to the NOPR level 18 because there's a bump in IEER from 3 to 3.5. Okay? The 19 analysis shows increased energy consumption, you know, 20 going from EL-3 to EL-3.5 for the small units. But, yet, 21 we think that's a flaw in the analysis that yields to a 22 big underestimation of the savings at 3.5. We just don't 23 think that you're going to go up an IEER point and also 24 see energy consumption go up on a population of 25 equipment.

## Meeting June 10, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 41 1 So our proposal yesterday of 15.4 quads, 3.5 TSL 2 across the board, which is 3.0 for the very large, 3 although in the DOE math it represent -- DOE analysis 4 it's 15.4, we believe it's actually closer to -- gives 5 us -- at least getting in the neighborhood of the NOPR 6 value of 16.3. 7 Your proposal this morning increased the savings 8 up to 13.5 quads. We're prepared to make some movement 9 on the ELs and the TSLs. But we're not prepared to see 10 the savings in this docket go to a level that are -- that 11 is as far below the NOPR levels -- NOPR savings as your 12 proposal does. So the difference now, so the NOPR's at 13 16.3, your proposal is at 13.5. 14 We would -- so our -- we're willing to move on 15 both the -- come to the years in a minute. But what 16 we're willing to do is to drop the level for the small 17 equipment from 3.5 to 3.0. Okay? We've heard you that 18 your proposal for the smaller equipment has been lower 19 across the board in your proposals, it was lower this 20 morning than for the other equipment. So we hear you 21 that there's -- what I'm hearing from those proposals is 22 a desire to push less on the small equipment than on the 23 other categories. 24 So we're willing to drop our -- drop to 3.0 on 25 the small equipment from our prior proposal of 3.5. And

## Meeting June 10, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 42 1 again, that's directly because we're interpreting your 2 proposals which have been lower for the small equipment 3 than for the large and very large to mean that you'd 4 rather push on the large and very large more relative to 5 the small. We're hearing that, but yet, you know, 6 dropping a full TSL from 3.5 to 2.5 takes too big a bite 7 out of the energy savings. These things -- this is a 8 large volume unit. So our proposal is to stick at 3.0 9 for the small -- or to drop, rather, from 3.5 to 3.0. 10 And then for the large, we would propose that 11 those stay. We're going to keep our proposal at the same 12 level with 3.5. And the very large are already at 3.0, 13 and we're proposing to leave those at 3.0. 14 The math on that -- and then on the years we 15 propose to split the difference. Okay? We heard 2024, 16 we heard 2022, let's call it 2023. We've had the 17 consultants run some scenarios yesterday, it looks like 18 each year of delay costs about .4 quads pretty much in 19 any one of these levels, right, because it's worth about 20 .4 quads. 21 And the thing about that .4 quads is that that's 22 a relatively firm .4. Because a lot of these savings are 23 pretty far out in the future, whereas the ones that are 24 closer in in time have a greater expected value in our 25 world in our view of the way the world works, then things

## Meeting June 10, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 43 1 that are happening out in the future, right, you get a 2 greater sense that those are things that wouldn't happen 3 anyway. 4 So that's a valuable .4 quads. And we're 5 willing to give a year to split the difference on that, 6 and it costs .4 quads. So when we have the consultants 7 run those numbers, run that scenario -- 8 MS. HOOTMAN: Very large was? 9 MR. deLASKI: 3. The savings are -- work out to 10 about -- let me get my notes. Unfortunately, I've got 11 two pads going for some reason. 12 Work out to about 15.4 quads. So the anomaly 13 here, back to the analysis anomaly, is that our savings 14 number is about -- is the same as what the DOE analysis 15 showed the savings numbers were yesterday from our 16 proposal, even though we've dropped the IEER levels for 17 the small equipment, right. And that's just that funny 18 anomaly in the analysis. 19 MR. HUNT: And given a year. 20 MR. deLASKI: And given a year. 21 But so to us, that 15.4 is a number -- is a 22 number that represents a true cut from the NOPR. Whereas 23 I was suggesting, our view of the world is that our 24 proposal yesterday was giving us parity with the NOPR. 25 We're now looking at a proposal that's almost a quad cut

## Meeting June 10, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 44 1 from what DOE had proposed in the proposed levels. 2 So in our view, that's a significant -- it's 3 significant movement. A lot of our group are 4 uncomfortable with a proposal that is less than what 5 was -- than a level of savings that's less than what you 6 would get in the NOPR. 7 And when we look at the -- sort of the overall 8 picture here, we're looking at a standard that's going to 9 happen five years later -- sorry, four years later than 10 what would happen under the DOE proposal. And to make up 11 that time -- and in essence, sort of the basic trade here 12 in terms of time versus stringency, is you lose -- to go 13 four years later, we have to go up somewhere to make 14 up -- to begin to make up those savings. 15 So we're saying the place to go up, compared to 16 the NOPR, is in the large equipment. And that helps to 17 make up the difference; it doesn't cover it, but it helps 18 to make up the difference between what the NOPR level 19 would yield and our proposal. 20 So it's the combination of that -- getting very 21 large to 3.5, and then the earlier ASHRAE levels, you 22 know, erode the losses, so to say. But we are willing to 23 take something of a loss compared to the proposed -- the 24 proposed rule. But you know, a quad is a quad; it's a 25 large number.

## Meeting June 10, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 45 1 So we think in exchange for the kind of 2 flexibility that we built in here with more time, 3 aligning effective dates, agreeing the levels on 4 furnaces, taking fans out of the fan docket, taking a cut 5 on the -- on the energy savings, that that's a pretty 6 good package. That's a lot in this for all parties. But 7 it is less energy savings than what would have happened 8 in the NOPR. And I will say that all parties in our 9 group are not completely comfortable with this. 10 So I'm happy to take any clarifying questions. 11 MR. AMRANE: Andrew, this is Karim with AHRI. 12 You've focused on quads, but did you look -- did you run 13 the impact on industry, the IMPV at those levels and how 14 they are compared -- 15 MR. deLASKI: I'm not sure if you were here 16 yesterday, Karim, but we had quite a lengthy discussion 17 in the morning where the consultants prepared their 18 information showing that they don't really have a GRIM 19 right now that models the two-tier, right. So there's a 20 lot of benefit in -- so what we're doing -- I don't own 21 the GRIM, Karim, you know that. 22 So you know -- so the answer is that we're 23 trying -- what we're doing is, we're trying to come up 24 with an approach that addresses what you've been telling 25 us all along about trying to align effective dates, give

## Meeting June 10, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 46 1 us more time. And, you know, the fact of the matter is, 2 these guys understand -- the analysis that matters is 3 what they're running inside their companies, and that's 4 for the contested docket in my view, right. The analysis 5 that matters is what these individual manufacturers note, 6 and that's confidential to them, of course. So I don't 7 think arguing over the GRIM output -- and I think we can 8 argue over it, but I don't think that's a good use of our 9 time. 10 MR. AMRANE: Yes, but that -- 11 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp with Goodman. I'll 12 say -- Mike, correct me if I'm wrong -- but there were 13 some -- that was part of the analysis that Navigant did 14 last night was two-step stuff. 15 And compared -- from what we asked them to run 16 to what you, you know -- so the max scenario they ran for 17 us compared to what yours, and I'm going to suggest -- 18 you know, Mike can speak up -- but I'm going to suggest 19 that it's probably in the range of a negative 30 percent 20 IMPV. So they could -- 21 MR. deLASKI: So I didn't really want to get 22 into this debate, but okay. Let's do it. 23 MR. THARP: But it needs to be something in 24 serious consideration because it's a 30 percent reduction 25 in industry. And that -- that's the -- you know, I'm

## Meeting June 10, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 47 1 speaking for Karen and my friend John back there, but 2 it's for all of us. 3 You know, my company, I -- you know, for the 4 company that I'm representing, Daikin America and 5 Goodman. Goodman only plays in the small stuff, and 6 we're a small player; Karen's a small player. 7 And so it is -- it's a significant issue for me, 8 even though I'm part of a larger company, for my division 9 of the company, it's significant. So I -- I don't want 10 to leave it off the table. 11 MR. deLASKI: No, I know. That's not off the -- 12 MR. RAMIREZ: Let me jump in. Andrew, just 13 because the -- its been clear, and I think its been made 14 clear by both sides that more so on industry that this is 15 something that's obviously going to be weighed and 16 industry is looking at this very closely. 17 The question that I have for you all though is 18 that we have about two hours and ten minutes, is that 19 what we want to use our time on or do we want to see if 20 we could finalize a deal? 21 You all are going to look at that data, I have 22 no doubt that you're going to do that, and that's going 23 to impact how you respond to this. So the question is: 24 Do you want to use that time to give a response or do you 25 want to have this discussion?

## Meeting June 10, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 48 1 MR. THARP: I guess the question would be, Mike, 2 how soon can you run some numbers for what they've 3 proposed? 4 MR. RIVEST: We have them right now. 5 MR. THARP: You have them right now? 6 MR. RIVEST: I mean, I can give them to you -- 7 MR. RAMIREZ: I'm sorry. Michael, could you get 8 a mic for us? Thanks. 9 MR. RIVEST: I'll provide the numbers to Rusty. 10 MR. deLASKI: And I wouldn't be surprised if 11 they're not going to be terribly different, right. You 12 know, so I think we kind of know the numbers and that 13 that particular DOE analysis kicks out. And it's a -- 14 you know -- you know, you all probably heard me give you 15 this -- I hesitate to get into this because I don't think 16 it's a constructive use of our time. 17 MR. RAMIREZ: Well, that's why I asked the 18 question if you want time to have this dialogue or you 19 want to take the time to respond. 20 MS. MEYERS: So why did you make that statement? 21 I'm trying to understand why -- 22 MR. deLASKI: Here's my point, okay. I'll try 23 to make it simply and not sort of -- because I don't want 24 to -- the issue that drives the manufacturer impact is -- 25 is shipments; right? And the issue that drives reclining

## Meeting June 10, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 49 1 shipments is the increase in price. 2 So part of the reason that we're -- we're 3 agreeing to an approach that gives you more flexibility 4 to comply, more time, aligns effective dates, aligns time 5 with the refrigerant phase-out, is because that will 6 reduce your costs to comply. Okay? 7 Once you -- once a standard is set, there is a 8 lot of talent, a lot of smarts, a lot of capital, a lot 9 of effort put into, "How do I comply with the standard at 10 the lowest possible cost?" Right, because you've got to, 11 right, because you know your competitor is. 12 So a few years ago -- we've been bothered for 13 many years that, you know, DOE comes up with these 14 analyses, they predict these cost impacts, and then we 15 observe in the market that the cost impacts don't arise 16 at the same level that DOE predicts. 17 You asked for the speech, so I'm giving it. 18 MS. MEYERS: I'm just getting ready to reply. 19 MR. deLASKI: And -- and what we found was that 20 the average observed price increase was 5 to 10 percent 21 of that predicted by the DOE analysis. And one of the 22 products of that was this equipment from the 2005 rule 23 that took effect in 2010, the DOE's analysis. 24 So DOE's analysis underestimated the price 25 impact by a wide margin. DOE overestimated the price

## Meeting June 10, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 50 1 impact by a very wide margin in that docket. 2 MS. MEYERS: Right, and you're saying that's 5 3 to 10 percent? That wide margin? 4 MS. HOOTMAN: 95 percent overestimated or 90 to 5 95 percent. 6 MR. THARP: 5 percent of -- 7 MR. RAMIREZ: Yeah, I'm sorry -- 8 MR. deLASKI: So the focus on my point here is 9 that the impact on shipments is only what is predicted if 10 the prices attain at the levels predicted. But there's 11 lots of drivers to get those -- to get to a better price. 12 Now, I can't tell you for sure, right, and I 13 know it's your job to be conservative to expect -- 14 because your bosses expect you, "Tell me the worst that 15 can happen," right, to be conservative. But once the 16 regulation is in place, incentives change. Now it's, 17 "I've got to comply with the regulation, and I've got to 18 do it in a way that's" -- and that's why I think the 19 effect we observed in ten dockets that looked at that we 20 had data that the costs didn't attain that were 21 predicted. 22 So that's why I -- I do not discount that there 23 are -- I believe there are impacts on manufacturers that 24 are costs for the shareholders, but what I don't believe 25 is that they are as severe as what are predicted by

## Meeting June 10, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 51 1 DOE's -- by the scenario that you're pointing to. And 2 DOE does run two scenarios, but I don't believe it's the 3 scenario, it's the shipments that I do not believe will 4 decline at the rate that are predicted, and those 5 shipment impacts are what drive it. 6 So we, again, it's not your job. I expect your 7 job is to be as -- is to expect the worst, but I don't 8 think it's going to be as bad as you're predicting. 9 MS. MEYERS: So this is Karen with Rheem and I 10 just want to respond to a couple of those points. 11 So my numbers would be very different from you, 12 and I have the -- the insight into seeing what has 13 happened to our average pricing and what has happened to 14 our margins as standards have changed. So I would 15 disagree with that, and you know, you can cherry pick 16 pricing all over the place and come up with some 17 analysis. 18 But I would also agree that, perhaps, in some of 19 the DOE analysis -- especially the 2005 to 2010 -- it 20 could have been overestimated. But the reason that that 21 happened is thousands of manufacturing jobs moved south 22 of the border, and that is an impact to American jobs. 23 And it is an impact to this industry that has been 24 caused, and I will say the number 1 factor is due to 25 federal minimum efficiency standards.

## Meeting June 10, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 52 1 So sometimes maybe that it's not -- you're not 2 seeing that because we're moving a lot of jobs, we're 3 closing facilities to manufacture elsewhere so that we 4 can keep our product affordable, which I think we've far 5 surpassed that already for the American consumer. So 6 you've got to do something; right? 7 So shipments are flat, efficiencies are up, 8 common, basic -- as it was drilled into me by 9 thermodynamics, you know, more copper, more aluminum, 10 more whatever, it's going to increase your cost. 11 So there's -- you know, there's several things 12 that we try and do to keep our, you know, profits and 13 shareholders. But, you know, there's only so much you 14 can do. There's only so much you can squeeze. 15 But, you know, you make that comment, but you 16 forget about what that does to contraction in the 17 industry and to jobs. And I don't think that's something 18 that a federal agency should discount when they are 19 setting regulations. Maybe it's not part of, you know, 20 what they're supposed to look at, but it is a fact of 21 what happens. 22 MR. deLASKI: So I'm still hopeful that we can 23 reach an agreement. I don't -- you know, I don't know 24 that it's great use of our time to continue this debate; 25 we have a different view on it.

## Meeting June 10, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 53 1 And my view is that on the jobs question, I 2 think, you know, it just takes one manufacturer to make 3 the decision that they're going to move production to a 4 low-wage country to put pressure on the others to do the 5 same. And that happens with or without a regulation; 6 right? And the regulation may create the moment where 7 you have to invest, and therefore, the moment arises 8 because the regulations then have to invest and now I 9 have to choose where do I invest, but someone's going to 10 make that decision at a point where they recapitalize the 11 new plant whether there's a regulation or not. It 12 effects the timing, no doubt. 13 MS. MEYERS: So to your point, we have a 14 different viewpoint on this issue. And I will agree to 15 drop this issue with you, but you keep, you know, you 16 said your part, I said my part. We need to stop or I'm 17 going to come back. So decide what you want, Andrew, 18 because I can -- I can -- 19 MR. RAMIREZ: Let me see if I ask -- how much 20 time does industry need in order to respond? And keeping 21 in mind there's probably some grumbling tummies in here. 22 And that's fine, so how much time would industry like? 23 30? All right. So let's be back at 1:30. 24 So we'll be back at 1:30. So if anyone could 25 squeeze in a quick bite, squeeze in a quick bite and

## Meeting June 10, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 54 1 we'll be back at 1:30. 2 (Recess taken.) 3 MR. RAMIREZ: All right. Let's go ahead and get 4 started back up. Sami had to catch a flight, so he -- he 5 was going to try to call in; correct? Let's -- 2, 4, 6, 6 8, 10. Yeah, we're good. Okay. 7 So whenever you're ready, I give the floor over 8 to the industry group. 9 MR. THARP: Okay. So for the industry response, 10 as the normal, we truly appreciate everyone working 11 together and trying to come to a consensus. And we 12 appreciate the offer that the advocates have as far as 13 coming closer together in what we're looking for. 14 I guess one of the -- one initial point I would 15 like to make is, I know that the -- Andrew, you've 16 mentioned several times that you've trying to -- you 17 know, the advocates are comparing to the NOPR levels of 18 TSL-3 and the quad savings there. From an industry -- 19 and so your last offer is, you know, less than that 20 savings. 21 I guess from an industry standpoint, what the 22 normal process is is ASHRAE 90.1 values, which would be 23 4.9 quad savings. And so the last offer that we came is, 24 you know, almost triple what we normally would expect as 25 far as ASHRAE 90.1 values going into place. So I'm

## Meeting June 10, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 55 1 trying to sort of think what all of our conversation was 2 here. 3 So for the EER, I think we do -- we generally 4 agree with, again, that it will continue to be regulated 5 by -- or verified by ASHRAE -- AHRI, sorry. We do not -- 6 we want to -- the wordsmithing to be that members will 7 continue to submit EER values to AHRI, and AHRI will 8 verify those values. So that's -- that's where we want 9 to go. We don't want to submit unregulated information 10 to Department of Energy. So -- but we're still fully 11 onboard with the EER values are being verified. 12 So in reality, in practice, there's no 13 difference than what we're doing today on EER as 14 reporting through the AHRI system. And -- and just, you 15 know, the AHRI certification program, we check product -- 16 so within five years, 100 percent of product is verified 17 at the values submitted. 18 So to next step, I think to keep it simple, is 19 our response is coming to -- trying to think, is it -- 20 coming approximately halfway between the difference in 21 quads. And we're going to move the small to 3 from our 22 last response. The large will be 3, and the very large 23 will be 2.5 in 2023. And I believe that gets us to -- 24 I'm trying to find my numbers here -- that's 14.8 quads; 25 is that right?

## Meeting June 10, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 56 1 MR. WHITWELL: 14.3. 2 MR. THARP: 14.3 quads, thank you. So the 3 numbers are 3, 3, 2.5. 4 MR. WHITWELL: And 2021? 5 MR. THARP: And 2023. 6 MR. SACHS: So the 2.5 is the very large. 7 MR. THARP: Correct. And is that correct, Greg, 8 14.3? Yes, 14.3. Thank you. 9 MR. deLASKI: So I think we should caucus. And 10 then we'll go get lunch. That seems fair. 11 MR. THARP: Are you hungry now, Karen? 12 MR. deLASKI: We'll caucus, you guys sit here 13 and starve. 14 MR. HUNT: Marshall Hunt, PG&E. One quick thing 15 I would -- we do need to see the wordsmithing, although 16 we may not need to settle that today, EER. 17 MR. deLASKI: We'll talk about it per caucus. 18 MR. RAMIREZ: So how much time? I guess the 19 question is: How much time do you need to eat? 20 MR. deLASKI: Let's take a half an hour -- 21 (Off-the-record conversation.) 22 MR. RAMIREZ: Be back in a half-hour. 23 (Recess taken.) 24 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. So Andrew, I'm going to let 25 you go through what you have, and then I want to talk

## Meeting June 10, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 57 1 about timing after that so -- because we're crunching the 2 time here, go ahead and hit the ground running. 3 MR. deLASKI: So we're about out of time for 4 today as I understand it. We appreciate your offer and, 5 you know, I think this has been a good process. In the 6 interest of time, I'll dispense with some of the 7 preamble, I guess, you've all heard it before. 8 On the EER point, so you know, this strikes me 9 as something that we can and should work out the details 10 there. I don't think we should try to wordsmith it here 11 today. Okay? I know that DOE's got a strong interest in 12 this topic and we do, too, you do, too. And just -- 13 there's complications here that are probably outside the 14 scope of probably where we started at least in the 15 negotiations that need to be sort of tackled by people 16 who are more familiar with them than I am. 17 And so I think it's a very important point to 18 us, Marshall's emphasized it throughout this negotiation 19 about the EER values being available. But we need to, I 20 would say, take some time to get that right. 21 I'm really happy to see that we have consensus 22 with respect to the small equipment. Okay? So we've 23 come to a point where we've got a consensus on a 24 category, so that's a big step forward for all of us. 25 The way we see it is that we're at a proposal

## Meeting June 10, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 58 1 that would achieve 15.4 quads of savings under the 2 analysis, and you're at a proposal that would save 14.3. 3 We are -- you know, compared to the NOPR, our proposal is 4 1.5 quads below what we would save with the proposed -- 5 with if the NOPR were adopted as a final rule. 6 We have made huge concession on fans, we have 7 done everything we can to get one redesign phase, we have 8 gone to a 2023 compliance date. We will make one last 9 step on quads, and this is the last step. Our group will 10 not take any further cuts beyond what I'm going to 11 describe for you right now. 12 It's in our proposal that we split the 13 difference from where we stand. Let's split the 14 difference in quads. You tell us the best way to get 15 there. And the way to get there, I mean, the options 16 are -- we've narrowed them. Because we've got consensus 17 on the small, so that leaves it to the large and the very 18 large. 19 So on the large, we're at 3.5 and you're at 3. 20 If we were to bump that up to 3.5, you get to 14.8, 14.9 21 quads, split the difference. If you do it on the very 22 large -- on the very large, you're at -- we're at 3 and 23 you're at 2.5. We come to 3, that covers the difference. 24 So what we're saying is that we're willing to 25 take a difference of 1.5 quads below what would be

## Meeting June 10, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 59 1 accomplished through the NOPR, and there are two 2 different ways to get there. But you guys know better 3 than us which way is least painful. 4 We've come a long way; our group can't go less 5 than that. In essence, what we're saying is what 6 we're -- what we're bargaining for here, in essence, is 7 certainty, that we get certainty, but we take -- but 8 there's less energy savings that would have been 9 accomplished if we didn't -- if we went through all the 10 challenge of a rule-making. 11 But at some point you're saying, well, how much, 12 you know -- I work on a lot of dockets that are worth 1.5 13 quads, the whole docket, soup to nuts, three plus years 14 of work. And it's a big difference. 15 So I hope that -- I would -- so we're -- we're 16 putting forth two options, either of which would get to 17 the same quad result. 18 MR. THARP: Rusty with Goodman. Would you be -- 19 if we had an option besides those two that you specified, 20 would you be willing to listen to that? 21 MS. MEYERS: That got us halfway? 22 MR. THARP: That got us halfway. 23 MR. deLASKI: Well, this is halfway. 24 MR. THARP: Well, if we had something different 25 than you. So still halfway.

## Meeting June 10, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 60 1 MR. deLASKI: Yeah, I understand. So you're 2 suggesting -- so yes, just leave it at that. Yes, I 3 mean, there's no -- I think -- we aren't -- if there's 4 another way to get there, I mean, in our group we talked 5 about some ideas, but we didn't put them forward because 6 some of them were locked down we didn't want to come back 7 to for example, TSL-1 -- I'm sorry, phase 1. 8 MR. THARP: Could you reread your numbers for 9 me, please, for the options? 10 MR. deLASKI: So small we have consensus at 3.0; 11 right? 12 MR. THARP: Yes. 13 MR. deLASKI: For the large, you're at 3 and 14 we're at 3.5. For the very large, you're at 2.5 and 15 we're at 3. 16 We're saying, taking your position for one, 17 taking our position for the other, you have a blend -- 18 takes 1, to -- you know, I think 1 could go to 2.75 and 19 3.25; right? So one doesn't -- not locked into the IEER 20 values if that's -- you don't -- 21 MR. SACHS: Andrew, let me see if presenting it 22 row-wise instead of column-wise speaks to the geeks 23 easier. 24 (Laughter.) 25 MR. RAMIREZ: What?

## Meeting June 10, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 61 1 MR. SACHS: So the proposal for a large, very 2 large -- small, large, and very large. 3 MR. RAMIREZ: I think he said "us geeks," sorry. 4 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. Is 3, 3, 3. Or 3, 5 3.5, 2.5 were that small, large, very large. 6 MS. MEYERS: What was the second one? 7 MR. SACHS: I'll do it slowly. 3 -- 8 MALE SPEAKER: Can you say that more slowly? 9 MR. SACHS: 3, 3, 3, or 3, 3.5, 2.5. 10 MR. THARP: And what were your quads for each 11 one of those? 12 MR. SACHS: They're essentially identical at 13 14.8 and 14.9. 14 MR. deLASKI: One, 14.8 and one, 14.9. 15 MR. THARP: So can you give us five minutes? 16 MR. SACHS: Sure. 17 MR. deLASKI: Is that okay, team? 18 MR. SACHS: And your question was: Is there an 19 option 3 -- 20 MR. THARP: Yeah. 21 MR. SACHS: -- at the same hit, and I -- I 22 don't -- we're open. 23 MR. THARP: Okay. We'll be back in five. 24 MR. RAMIREZ: All right. Thank you. 25 (Recess taken.)

## Meeting June 10, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 62 1 MR. RAMIREZ: Well, that was -- you guys were 2 solid on the five minutes. Nice job. 3 MR. THARP: Do we have more time? 4 MR. RAMIREZ: No, no, no, you don't. All right. 5 So what are you thinking? 6 MR. THARP: Okay. So actually, one thing I just 7 remembered, somebody asked me since this is all court 8 reporter if it's -- if you're on record, is everything I 9 say on the record. I said yes. So they told me that I 10 need to say "Go Cowboys." So I'm planning -- already 11 planning my trip to San Francisco for February of 2016. 12 Okay. 13 FEMALE SPEAKER: Against the Bills. 14 MR. RAMIREZ: Now you're out of time. All 15 right. Let's hear -- 16 (Laughter.) 17 MR. THARP: All right. So we would like to 18 propose our option 3, which is taking the IEER delta 19 across the board from a 0.3 back to 0.2. By our back of 20 the envelope calculations, that's half a quad. 21 Based on discussion with Greg, it's a .4 quads. 22 So that gets us to 14.7, if you take Greg's number. And 23 we are also be willing to go to a .7 delta across the 24 board for heat pumps instead of a .7, .8, 1.0. And 25 ballpark, we're guessing that's the -- at least a tenth

## Meeting June 10, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 63 1 of a quad, which gives us to the 14.8 range. 2 MR. deLASKI: Say that again, slower. 3 MR. THARP: Zero -- 4 MR. deLASKI: We're talking about the -- go 5 ahead. 6 MR. THARP: So it's keeping our offer of 3, 3, 7 2.5, changing the IEER delta for gas heat from 0.3 to 8 0.2, and changing the IEER delta for heat pumps from 9 .7/.8/1.0 to .7 across the board. 10 MR. deLASKI: So Greg calculates that to be 11 worth -- 12 MR. THARP: Greg calculated the gas heat delta 13 to be .4, and we didn't discuss the calculations on the 14 heat pump IEER. But it's roughly -- I guess my 15 approximation, as an engineer, is it's about the same. 16 As course there's less volumes on heat pumps, so just my 17 back calculations is that's at least a tenth, if not 18 two-tenths. 19 And Greg, I just -- off the cuff, your thoughts 20 are I'm correct? 21 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yeah, I mean, since we were 22 close on, you know, the other heatings calculation 23 similar matter, then I would assume I would get the same 24 sort of result. 25 MR. deLASKI: But your math, Rusty, is that

## Meeting June 10, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 64 1 takes your offer to 14.7 quads? 2 MR. THARP: Total 14.8, 14.8 or 14.9. 3 MR. SACHS: I'd like to ask for a few minutes. 4 MR. RAMIREZ: All right. The clock has started. 5 (Recess taken.) 6 MR. RAMIREZ: All right. Let's get started. 7 MR. THARP: So before you get started, I need to 8 make a correction to what I said earlier -- a 9 clarification, rather, a clarification. It's Dallas 10 Cowboys, not Oklahoma State Cowboys. 11 MR. RAMIREZ: Now that the record is straight, 12 Andrew? 13 MR. deLASKI: So we have an agreement with a 14 contingency. Okay? So we have agreement with a 15 contingency, and our contingency is that we want Greg -- 16 we want the analyst to run the numbers. When we said 17 14.8, 14.9 was our bottom line, we'll go with 14.8, but 18 we meant that. 19 So we want to see the numbers run by the 20 analyst, if they hold up, then we're good to go. If they 21 don't, then, you know, you're going to have to nip and 22 tuck somewhere else, Rusty. Because we -- that's as far 23 as we're going to go. 24 And I know we're in the error factors, Bob, but 25 the error factor has been on a lower number every time.

## Meeting June 10, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 65 1 So we -- we -- we'd like to see the numbers. 2 MR. THARP: Can you give us one minute? 3 MR. RAMIREZ: Sure, stretch the legs. A quick, 4 one-minute break. 5 (Recess taken.) 6 MR. THARP: Okay. So question to Greg, who's 7 going to win the Big 10 next year? 8 MR. RAMIREZ: Go Blue. 9 MR. THARP: Okay. So through the contractors, 10 how long will it take for you to crunch the numbers on 11 this last one? And not of the contractors, to Greg and 12 his crew, how long will it take you to crunch the numbers 13 to verify our last proposal? 14 MR. ROSENQUIST: I was just telling Javier that, 15 you know, I'm flying back tonight. I'll get this done 16 tomorrow, send it out to John, you know, that's my best 17 confirmation, right, or, you know, a set of numbers. 18 Whatever that means. 19 MR. RIVEST: We were thinking minutes. 20 MR. ROSENQUIST: Oh, you're thinking minutes? 21 MS. HOOTMAN: We just want to know. 22 MR. THARP: We just want to know about how long 23 will it take you to run those numbers. 24 MR. deLASKI: We've got Monday, right? 25 MR. THARP: We'll have the answer tomorrow,

## Meeting June 10, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 66 1 right. 2 MR. WHITWELL: We don't want to be spending 3 Monday -- 4 MR. RAMIREZ: Well, that would then go to 5 what -- assuming that the numbers hold up, who's going to 6 take a shot at drafting this term sheet? 7 MR. deLASKI: Well, on the other hand, Rusty, if 8 you got another couple tenths of a quad in your back 9 pocket -- 10 MR. THARP: We don't. 11 MR. deLASKI: -- lay it out there, buddy. 12 MR. RAMIREZ: All right. Rusty, where are you 13 stashing the quads? 14 MR. THARP: So I think at this point industry 15 will go ahead and ask you guys to run the numbers and 16 then we'll go from there. 17 MR. RAMIREZ: All right. So let me -- 18 MS. HOOTMAN: Let's have a conference call on 19 Friday. 20 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey, and I'm 21 misunderstanding something. We have made a commitment of 22 accepting contingent. Am I hearing the same thing or -- 23 okay. Thank you. 24 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. And then, thank you, 25 Harvey. That's where I was going.

## Meeting June 10, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 67 1 MR. THARP: The industry accepts the offers of 2 contingency, and we'll wait to see also what the numbers 3 come out. 4 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, I mean, they may -- this is 5 Bob Whitwell. So the issue is, we don't have nothing 6 more, either. 7 So the question is: What are we going to do on 8 Monday; right? Are we going to be finalizing the terms 9 sheet or are we -- are -- do we still -- are we still 10 arguing about a tenth of a quad? 11 MR. THARP: So then is it acceptable -- so I 12 have high confidence that the numbers are going to be at 13 least a tenth, if not more, on these quads. 14 So to the point you made, Javier, are we going 15 to -- who's going to develop the term sheet? Because I 16 think it would be a great idea to have the term sheet out 17 Sunday night at the latest so we all have a little bit of 18 time to review it before we have a teleconference, 19 because we don't need to be sitting on a teleconference, 20 you know, shuffling wordsmithing stuff. 21 MR. RAMIREZ: Right. So and that's a question 22 for the group. Who's going to -- and -- 23 MS. MEYERS: So Javier, I don't mean to be flip 24 here, but this is about my fourth working group, and the 25 moderator always develops the terms sheet. So I thought

## Meeting June 10, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 68 1 that was you. 2 MR. RAMIREZ: You know what, we normally had 3 not, but I could talk to -- I'll talk to John and we'll 4 work that out. We'll work it out. 5 MS. MEYERS: Okay. I mean, I just was 6 surprised -- 7 MR. RAMIREZ: We'll work it out. 8 MS. MEYERS: Right. Okay. 9 MR. RAMIREZ: So as far as I'm understanding, 10 then -- and you know what, maybe let's do a tentative 11 vote on it, right, that assuming that everything works 12 out, then we're going to finalize the language and we'll 13 formalize the vote then. But let's see a show of thumbs 14 just to make sure that everyone's on -- in principal is 15 okay with what we're discussing. 16 MR. deLASKI: Before we do that, I think it's 17 worth highlighting a couple of points that we have left 18 that need some work and we might want to designate a 19 couple of working groups on those topics. 20 And one of them was the EER reporting because, 21 again, that struck me as needing some work. 22 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. So that's Marshall and who? 23 MS. HOOTMAN: Karim or Nick, whatever, AHRI. 24 MR. deLASKI: I don't think I have time the next 25 three days. I --

## Meeting June 10, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 69 1 MR. RAMIREZ: So Nick and Marshall will work on 2 the EER language? 3 MR. deLASKI: Yeah, and I -- I think DOE has an 4 interest in this. And so I think DOE probably would -- 5 John's not here, but I think there's an interest in this 6 from the agency. 7 MR. RAMIREZ: So John's volunteered? He's 8 volun-told? 9 MR. deLASKI: Yeah. 10 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. 11 MR. deLASKI: What else? I felt like there was 12 something else out there that we probably need to spend a 13 little time on here. 14 MR. THARP: The test procedure wording. 15 MR. deLASKI: The test procedure wording 16 (simultaneous talking) oh, and the fan and blower piece. 17 MR. RAMIREZ: So test procedure? 18 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah, you mean the part that you 19 read -- 20 MR. deLASKI: Well, yeah, so that's fine for us. 21 I'm just not sure how it works in a terms sheet. Because 22 again, the problem is that we're binding these -- the 23 terms sheet is something that the agent -- I need to 24 under -- I don't understand. Again, back to what I said, 25 preface that with how what we as stakeholders agree to

## Meeting June 10, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 70 1 effects how the working group. Right, so I just have a 2 mechanics issue. 3 MS. HOOTMAN: But your other statement that you 4 raised (inaudible). 5 MR. deLASKI: Yeah, so I think that's a question 6 back to the agency, which is, I think a question for the 7 agency. So maybe that's -- I don't know if John -- is 8 John listening in? Do we know? 9 MR. RAMIREZ: Yeah, I thought he was, but I 10 don't think he has -- 11 MR. deLASKI: So Javier, I guess I'd ask you to 12 bring that back to John as a question how to handle what 13 we've agreed to -- tentatively agreed to conceptually as 14 a mechanical matter. 15 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. 16 MR. deLASKI: Maybe it's not purely mechanical 17 is what I'm concerned about. 18 The fans, the EER, and what was the third thing 19 you said, Karen? Was the -- 20 MR. THARP: The test procedure. 21 MR. deLASKI: Oh, the test procedure? Language 22 of the test procedure. 23 MR. RAMIREZ: I'm sorry, that's the EER; 24 correct? 25 MR. deLASKI: No, it's different.

## Meeting June 10, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 71 1 MR. RAMIREZ: So what's the test procedure? 2 MR. deLASKI: I think we had that. We had it, 3 we agreed to that. 4 MR. WHITWELL: We agreed to the test procedure, 5 so just the question is the -- (inaudible). 6 MR. deLASKI: Right. Yeah, so I think what we'd 7 want to see -- 8 MS. HOOTMAN: Say our names I guess. 9 FEMALE SPEAKER: If you're going to speak, have 10 your microphone on (inaudible). 11 MR. deLASKI: So what I would look for -- what I 12 would hope, Javier, is that we can have a terms sheet 13 drafted for review by, you know, COB Thursday think that 14 we have to leave some things to -- you know, because 15 we're trying -- we're meeting on Monday? 16 MR. RAMIREZ: So the numbers to make sure that 17 this is a deal will be tomorrow. 18 Marshall and Nick, can you get us the language 19 by the end of tomorrow as well? (Inaudible.) 20 MALE SPEAKER: Yes. 21 MR. RAMIREZ: By the end of tomorrow, can you 22 and Nick work out the language for the EER? 23 MR. deLASKI: And you need to consult with the 24 agency. 25 MR. HUNT: Yes. And we've got to get Cymbalsky

## Meeting June 10, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 72 1 involved somehow. Trying to catch a plane right now. 2 MR. RAMIREZ: All right. Yeah, so let me take 3 that tentative vote. Let me see a show of thumbs that 4 assuming that we work out the language that everyone's 5 onboard. 6 All right. And there's one person, Steven? I 7 don't think she's on or Michael -- Michael Shows, is his 8 mic on? Michael, you okay with it? 9 All right. So I'm not hearing a thumbs down. 10 Okay. He said yes? Okay. All right. 11 Any other logistics, then? 12 MS. MEYERS: Monday at 9:00 a.m.? 13 MR. RAMIREZ: 9:00 a.m. and we will e-mail out 14 the link and the call-in number. Okay. 15 So congratulations, a bit rush, a bit 16 anti-climactic, but we'll -- congratulations. And we do 17 need one last piece of business to offer public comment. 18 MR. deLASKI: By the way, Nick voted thumbs up. 19 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay. Thank you. 20 MS. MEYERS: Hi, it's Karen. So Cymbalsky, 21 where's the champagne, Cymbalsky? 22 MR. RAMIREZ: Michael? 23 MR. McCABE: This is Michael McCabe. On the 24 test procedures, it wasn't clear -- you had the January 25 '19, '16 date to January '19, 2016, 2019. It wasn't

## Meeting June 10, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 73 1 clear what you expected by January of 2016. Because 2 there's no way the department can publish a proposed rule 3 by that date just to make -- that you'll start working on 4 it and have the final rule published by three years after 5 that. 6 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes. Okay. Thank you. 7 Any other public comment? Are the mics opened 8 up, Alex? 9 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. And just, thank you 10 to everybody. Thank you for DOE for authorizing the 11 consultants work in advance to get this thing started. 12 Thank you to you guys for doing your job, and to all of 13 my colleagues on both sides -- all sides of this table. 14 MR. RAMIREZ: Thank you, Harvey. 15 Are the mics open? Okay. So no public 16 comments, then? Congratulations, and I'll hear you all 17 on Monday. 18 (End of audio.) 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

### Meeting June 10, 2015 74 1 CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER 2 3 I, Kylie S. Shepherd, Certified Shorthand 4 Reporter, CERTIFY I was authorized to transcribe the 5 proceedings, and the foregoing transcript is a true and 6 accurate record. 7 I FURTHER CERTIFY that I am not a relative, 8 employee, attorney, or counsel of any of the parties, nor 9 am I a relative or employee of any of the parties' 10 attorney or counsel connected with the action, nor am I 11 financially interested in the action. 12 Dated this 12th day of June, 2015. 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25



### 202-220-4158 Kylie S. Shepherd



### Henderson Legal Services, Inc. www.hendersonlegalservices.com

## Meeting June 10, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 1 A a.m 72:12,13 able 24:5

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64:20 Anderson 1:6

3:19,19 Andrew 1:10

## Meeting June 10, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 2 3:21 17:18 18:10,24 19:4 28:4 29:4 31:15 31:24 45:11 47:12 53:17 54:15 56:24 60:21 64:12 Andrew's

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49:12 bottom 64:17 bought9:1,3 box7:1 Branson 1:8

## Meeting June 10, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 3 4:21 break 18:20

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38:2 49:4,6,9 50:17 component

## Meeting June 10, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 4 8:5 38:12 components

36:1 concept 37:20

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3:21,21 11:25 12:7

## Meeting June 10, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 5 15:23 16:2,6 17:2 18:9 19:3,6,14 22:4,7,13 23:6,25 25:6 25:8 26:9,13 27:23 28:13 28:23 29:5,7 30:5,17 31:19,22 32:4,10,24 33:2,7,11 34:8,23 35:8 35:20 36:11 36:20 38:16 38:18 43:9 43:20 45:15 46:21 47:11 48:10,22 49:19 50:8 52:22 56:9 56:12,17,20 57:3 59:23 60:1,10,13 61:14,17 63:2,4,10,25 64:13 65:24 66:7,11 68:16,24 69:3,9,11,15 69:20 70:5 70:11,16,21 70:25 71:2,6 71:11,23 72:18 delay42:18 deliver20:19 delta 8:14

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59:16 67:6 EL 8:15 EL-2.0 40:4 EL-3 10:12

40:20 EL-3.5 40:12

## Meeting June 10, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 6 40:17,20 Electric's

12:22 Electrolux

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51:24 64:25 factors 19:24

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57:16 fan 13:23,23 14:23 15:5 25:14 26:2,2 26:4 38:3,5 38:11 39:11 39:15 45:4 69:16 fans 10:1 13:17,25 14:1,4 15:1 16:19 22:23 36:12 37:25 39:3,4,6,11 39:16 45:4 58:6 70:18 far7:10 13:12 15:15 30:4 41:11 42:23 52:4 54:12 54:25 64:22 68:9 fear27:7 feature 17:4 February

62:11 federal 3:6

32:16 51:25 52:18 feel 6:9,25 13:23 16:23 feels 6:18 felt69:11 FEMALE62:13

71:9 field 13:12 20:5 figure 34:19 fin 25:22 final 22:20

58:5 73:4 finalize 34:17

35:2 47:20 68:12 finalized 31:25 finalizing 67:8 finance 12:23 financially

74:11 find 55:24 fine53:22

69:20 firm 42:22 first5:1,19

35:9 fitted 13:8 five34:22 38:6

44:9 55:16 61:15,23 62:2 flat7:6 52:7 flaw40:21 flexibility45:2

49:3 flight54:4 flip 67:23 floated 37:7 floor4:23 54:7 flying 65:15 FMCS 3:7 focus 13:1

50:8 focused 45:12 folks 17:18 18:14 follow 12:1

24:2 follow-on 13:20 following

## Meeting June 10, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 7 22:12 forecast 7:5,7 foregoing 74:5 forget52:16 forgotten

31:20 formalize

68:13 forth 30:9

59:16 forward 16:20

57:24 60:5 found 49:19 four29:21

44:9,13 fourth 67:24 frame 9:12

25:19,24 frames 9:17 framing 21:5

22:19 Francisco

62:11 Friday66:19 friend 47:1 front 14:18 full 11:1 42:6 fully55:10 funny43:17 furnaces 9:8

21:9,14 45:4 further5:5 17:3 58:10 74:7 future24:9

42:23 43:1 G G 3:1 gas 63:7,12 gather5:5 gave38:22

40:16 GE 8:19 13:6 13:11 geeks 60:22

61:3 general 12:22

26:16 generally55:3 getting 8:21

27:4 37:10 37:13 41:5 44:20 49:18 give5:23 6:6

6:21 9:10 18:19 43:5 45:25 47:24 48:6,14 54:7 61:15 65:2 given 7:10 8:3

43:19,20 gives 10:22,23

41:4 49:3 63:1 giving 6:18 7:4

43:24 49:17 go 3:3,3 8:10

9:11 10:18 15:13 16:20 17:3 18:22 19:10 24:18 26:14 28:6 28:10 31:11 32:15 36:7 39:3,12 40:23,24 41:10 44:12 44:13,15 54:3 55:9 56:10,25 57:2 59:4 60:18 62:10 62:23 63:4 64:17,20,23 65:8 66:4,15 66:16 goes 8:15 10:8 37:17 going 3:4 5:2

6:21 7:21 8:6 8:12,13,15 9:12,21 13:21 14:18 14:24 15:5 15:19 16:9 17:5,13,14 18:15 19:10 19:25 21:2 24:8 26:25 27:25 29:1,7 29:8 30:7,8 30:10 31:10 32:1 36:11 40:20,23 42:11 43:11 44:8 46:17 46:18 47:15 47:21,22,22 48:11 51:8 52:10 53:3,9 53:17 54:5 54:25 55:21 56:24 58:10 64:21,23 65:7 66:5,25 67:7,8,12,14 67:15,22 68:12 71:9 gone33:16

58:8 good 9:20

16:18 19:1 20:11 25:18 27:10 28:4 40:6 45:6 46:8 54:6 57:5 64:20 Goodman 3:11

4:25 9:4 26:7 27:12 35:16 46:11 47:5,5 59:18 goods 8:20

12:25 13:1,2 got5:14 15:6

21:9 25:20 34:19 43:10 49:10 50:17 50:17 52:6 57:11,23 58:16 59:21 59:22 65:24 66:8 71:25 gotten 8:19 government

24:17 Granda 1:12

4:12,12 great52:24

67:16 greater7:17

42:24 43:2 Greg 2:2 4:3

10:24 56:7 62:21 63:10 63:12,19 64:15 65:6 65:11 Greg's 62:22 GRIM 45:18,21

46:7 grimaces 5:16 ground 57:2 group 1:1 4:23

14:11 16:7,7 16:11 17:21 18:24 35:18 38:6,18,19 38:24 39:15 44:3 45:9 54:8 58:9 59:4 60:4 67:22,24 70:1 groups 17:2,7 68:19 grumbling

53:21 guess 9:9 11:5

13:18 15:20 23:2 25:16 26:16 33:15 35:16,17 39:17 48:1 54:14,21 56:18 57:7 63:14 70:11 71:8 guessing

62:25 guidance

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70:12 hands 24:9

28:1 hang 18:18 happen 24:8

28:25 29:1 37:13,15 43:2 44:9,10 50:15 happened

13:5 33:23

## Meeting June 10, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 8 45:7 51:13 51:13,21 happening

33:18 43:1 happens 7:12

9:2 52:21 53:5 happy45:10

57:21 Harvey2:3

3:12 12:18 15:22 16:13 18:2 30:14 31:9 37:7 38:8,19 61:4 66:20,25 73:9,14 has 8:19 10:24

13:5 16:22 20:7 21:13 21:17 28:17 28:18 41:18 51:12,13,23 57:5 64:4,25 69:3 70:10 haven't22:2

31:20 having 22:18 hear31:14

37:2 41:20 62:15 73:16 heard 21:13

35:8 41:17 42:15,16 48:14 57:7 hearing 17:12

41:21 42:5 66:22 72:9 heat 62:24

63:7,8,12,14 63:16 heatings 63:22 help 29:25 helpful 24:6 34:15 helps 44:16,17 here 5:1 10:9

13:20 15:15 15:19 17:7 18:23 20:2 22:10 24:21 25:13 28:2,5 36:11,16,22 36:24 37:24 38:4,7 39:2 43:13 44:8 44:11 45:2 45:15 50:8 53:21 55:2 55:24 56:12 57:2,10,13 59:6 67:24 69:5,13 here's 8:20

37:22 48:22 Hermosillo 3:7

3:7 hesitant 14:22 hesitate 48:15 Hi 72:20 high 6:25

67:12 higher6:24 highlighting

68:17 hill 20:1 history5:13,20

7:5 hit57:2 61:21 hold 64:20

66:5 Hootman 1:13

3:9,9 13:21 14:4,8,11,14 14:19,22 15:1,5,8 16:10 24:12 24:14,23 28:4,17 29:6 29:9,17,20 30:15 31:1,9 31:18 32:21 32:25 33:3 33:10,14 43:8 50:4 65:21 66:18 68:23 69:18 70:3 71:8 hope22:7

29:24 31:4 31:22 59:15 71:12 hopeful 52:22 hopefully40:8 hour5:3 18:9

56:20 hours 5:6 19:3

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22:17 Huang 1:14

4:20 huge 11:18,19

11:20 28:8 37:8 58:6 hungry56:11 Hunt 1:15 3:17

3:17 24:4,4 24:13,22 25:1 35:10 35:10 36:10 43:19 56:14 56:14 71:25 I I'd 31:2 64:3

70:11 I'll 4:23 46:11

48:9,22 57:6 61:7 65:15 68:3 73:16 idea 16:18 23:7 27:2 29:4,6 37:7 67:16 ideas 60:5 identical 61:12 IEER 9:18

16:23 23:13 23:20,20,24 24:11,15,16 24:18 29:18 32:11,19 34:17,21 38:2 40:18 40:23 43:16 60:19 62:18 63:7,8,14 impact 7:17

15:19 45:13 47:23 48:24 49:25 50:1,9 51:22,23 impacts 49:14

49:15 50:23 51:5 imperfect

20:13 implementat...

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21:17 22:15 36:25 57:17 improve 11:12

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5:6,9 10:23 45:18 55:9 initial 10:11

12:15 54:14 initiate22:19

30:22 initiated 30:19

## Meeting June 10, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 9 inside 46:3 insight51:12 installed 7:1 instead 9:22

60:22 62:24 intent23:20

26:8 interest 37:10

57:6,11 69:4 69:5 interested

74:11 internal 6:13 interpreting

42:1 interrupt22:10 interrupting

16:14 intimated

32:13 into4:22 8:16

9:12 10:8 12:25 17:5 20:5,15,15 23:2,14 25:3 27:1 28:6,20 31:8 32:16 38:17 39:3 46:22 48:15 49:9 51:12 52:8 54:25 60:19 introduced

17:4 introducing

24:1 34:2,11 34:14 introductions

3:4 inventory

33:21 invest53:7,8,9 involved 30:8

72:1 IOUs 3:18,20 IPOV24:16 Isael 3:7 issue 12:19

18:4 22:20 36:25 47:7 48:24,25 53:14,15 67:5 70:2 issues 39:2 item 6:8 22:25 items 36:6 iteration 28:25 J J 1:19 2:10 jacked 6:24 Jakobs 1:16

4:17,20 James 1:7 4:7 January9:19

9:21 22:20 22:21 30:22 30:23 72:24 72:25 73:1 Javier 1:25 3:6

65:14 67:14 67:23 70:11 71:12 Jill 1:13 3:9

31:14 Jim 1:11 4:20 job 19:1 50:13

51:6,7 62:2 73:12 jobs 51:21,22

52:2,17 53:1 John 1:9 4:2

13:16 15:13 17:11 22:1 33:24 47:1 65:16 68:3 70:7,8,12 John's 17:12 69:5,7 jump47:12 June 1:3 74:12 K kahuna 10:9 Karen 1:22

3:13 47:1 51:9 56:11 70:19 72:20 Karen's 47:6 Karim 1:5 4:8

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48:13 kind 19:22

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8:21 9:2 10:10 11:19 11:21,23 15:10 16:8,8 17:3,9,11,16 17:20 18:1 19:8,15,17 19:23 20:1,9 20:15,16,19 20:21 21:1 21:10,15 22:4 24:1,8 24:17 25:8,9 25:22 26:1 26:13,13,24 27:7,8,24,25 28:15 29:10 30:2,8,24 32:14,16 33:12,20 37:6,12 38:20 39:13 40:13,19 42:5 44:22 44:24 45:21 45:22 46:1 46:16,18,25 47:3,3,11 48:12,12,14 48:14 49:11 49:13 50:13 51:15 52:9 52:11,12,13 52:15,19,23 52:23 53:2 53:15 54:15 54:17,19,24 55:15 57:5,8 57:11 58:3 59:2,12 60:18 63:22 64:21,24 65:15,16,17 65:21,22 67:20 68:2 68:10 70:7,8 71:13,14 knows 8:22 Kylie2:19 74:3

74:17 L lab 31:8 lack 13:6 language 16:16 22:8 68:12 69:2 70:21 71:18 71:22 72:4 large 5:19

10:21,21 41:2 42:3,3,4 42:4,8,10,12 43:8 44:16 44:21,25 55:22,22 56:6 58:17 58:18,19,22 58:22 60:13 60:14 61:1,2 61:2,2,5,5 larger 8:15

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23:18 34:23 44:9,9,13 latest 67:17 Lau 4:4,4 Laughter

60:24 62:16 lay66:11 LBNL4:3 leads 7:16 learned 31:3,5 least 19:21

23:1 40:6 41:5 57:14 59:3 62:25 63:17 67:13 leave24:12

## Meeting June 10, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 10 27:4 35:21 42:13 47:10 60:2 71:14 leaves 19:23

58:17 leaving 31:16 left68:17 legs 65:3 lends 27:18 lengthy45:16 less 7:2 21:2

41:22 44:4,5 45:7 54:19 59:4,8 63:16 lessons 31:3 level 8:4,7,14

8:15 34:17 40:16,17 41:10,16 42:12 44:5 44:18 49:16 levels 7:14,20

41:11 42:19 43:16 44:1 44:21 45:3 45:13 50:10 54:17 life 6:19,21 like 6:15 10:10

14:24 18:15 23:24 24:15 30:6,18 31:2 42:17 53:22 54:15 62:17 64:3 65:1 69:11 likely24:20 limit25:17 limited 25:22

27:9 Linda2:11

4:20 line23:10

64:17 lined 13:19 lines 30:21 link36:14

72:14 list 19:11 22:2 listen 59:20 listening 70:8 literally33:20

33:21 litigation

19:25 little 12:8

13:11 23:3 34:16 36:13 67:17 69:13 live 11:4 35:21

38:3,24 locked 16:24

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20:8 23:20 36:1 37:17 59:4 65:10 65:12,22 longer 13:8

15:10 look7:5 11:22

15:14 26:17 26:19,22 38:23 44:7 45:12 47:21 52:20 71:11 looked 50:19 looking 11:21

20:17 32:3 39:25 43:25 44:8 47:16 54:13 looks 14:24

18:15 26:17 42:17 loophole

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3:17 21:21 21:25 22:6 24:2,4 35:10 56:14 68:22 69:1 71:18 Marshall's

25:10 57:18 Mary 1:6 3:19 materials 8:6 math 12:2,8

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38:9 53:6 56:16 67:4 maybe6:13

17:3 18:18 19:22 23:12 27:1 32:7,12 32:13 33:22 52:1,19 68:10 70:7 70:16 McCabe 1:19 4:9,9 72:23 72:23 McClive 1:20

4:21 McCrudden

1:21 3:23,23 mean 15:24

25:7 26:4,14 26:15 27:7 28:8,13 29:16 31:10 35:24 42:3 48:6 58:15 60:3,4 63:21 67:4,23 68:5 69:18 Meaning 28:25 means 6:1

65:18 meant26:1

64:18 measurably

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29:25 mechanical

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33:8 37:6,21 70:2 mechanism

17:15 Mediation 3:6 meeting 1:2

40:9 71:15 meetings

21:12 Meg 2:8 4:20

38:20 members 9:15

11:5 16:11 55:6

## Meeting June 10, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 11 membership

16:3,4 mentioned

10:14 13:17 54:16 method 9:16

9:18,23 10:2 10:4 20:7 22:13,14 23:1 28:1 30:6,7 31:25 32:17 35:9 39:8 methodology

28:18 methods

25:12 metric 8:14

10:5 13:25 14:23 15:6 15:11 23:2,8 23:9,10,14 27:2,10 28:11 29:18 32:1,1,2,11 33:22,22 34:18,20 38:2 metrics 32:3

32:22 Meyers 1:22

3:13,13 17:20 31:24 32:9 34:15 35:1,6 48:20 49:18 50:2 51:9 53:13 59:21 61:6 67:23 68:5,8 72:12,20 mic 35:15 48:8

72:8 Michael 1:17

1:19 2:5 4:1 4:9 48:7 72:7 72:7,8,22,23 microphone

71:10 mics 73:7,15 might 11:6

24:10 26:23 26:23 27:5,5 27:9 28:19 34:2 68:18 Mike2:1 4:5

46:12,18 48:1 millions 25:2

39:3 mind 11:23

23:3 40:8 53:21 minds 28:5 minimum

51:25 minute 10:14

41:15 65:2 minutes 18:18

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36:18 mode26:21 model 6:8,9

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9:18 moment22:23

53:6,7 Monday65:24

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15:8 22:22 23:3 27:1,3 27:14 28:5 29:15,19,23 31:6 36:25 40:14 42:4 45:2 46:1 47:14 49:3,4 52:9,9,10 57:16 61:8 62:3 67:6,13 morning 5:7

19:8 41:7,20 45:17 most23:9 move 10:20,21

12:25 41:14 53:3 55:21 moved 51:21 movement

41:8 44:3 moves 12:23 moving 18:6

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7:16 10:7 12:19 13:11 17:19 34:23 42:18 52:13 52:14 53:19 53:22 56:18 56:19 59:11 N N 1:4 3:1 names 71:8 narrow27:17 narrowed

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36:8 Navigant4:4,5

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15:13 17:19 26:23 36:4 37:4,20 53:16,20 56:15,16,19 57:15,19 62:10 64:7 67:19 68:18 69:12,23 71:23 72:17 needed 27:1 needing 68:21 needs 13:23

46:23 negative46:19 negotiate20:2

38:21 39:10 negotiated

34:20 negotiating

24:21 32:19 34:17 negotiation

19:17 20:14 20:16 21:18 36:16 37:1 57:18 negotiations

36:15 57:15 neighborhood

41:5 neither38:19 net39:25 Neto 1:24 4:6

4:6 new 13:8

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23:21 28:25 35:4 55:18 65:7 68:24 Nice 62:2 Nicholas 1:23 Nick3:10

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26:11 NOPR 19:21

20:20 40:6 40:17 41:5 41:11,11 43:22,24 44:6,16,18 45:8 54:17 58:3,5 59:1 NOPR's 41:12 nor 13:24,24

## Meeting June 10, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 12 38:19 74:8 74:10 normal 54:10

54:22 normally54:24

68:2 Northwest

3:15 note5:10

10:15 46:5 notes 5:1

43:10 nothing 67:5 notion 22:18

27:23 nuance 38:14 number5:19

5:21 6:8,16 6:19,23 7:4 7:13,14,18 8:1 11:19,20 11:20,20 23:1 26:20 31:20 40:7 43:14,21,22 44:25 51:24 62:22 64:25 72:14 numbers 9:10

28:11,18,21 43:7,15 48:2 48:9,12 51:11 55:24 56:3 60:8 64:16,19 65:1,10,12 65:17,23 66:5,15 67:2 67:12 71:16 nuts 59:13 O O 3:1 objective23:4 objectives 20:22 observe49:15 observed

49:20 50:19 obviously

38:14 47:15 off7:15 10:15

14:10 19:12 30:17 34:16 47:10,11 63:19 off-the-record

5:15,17 56:21 offer 10:11,20

12:5,8,11,14 12:15 19:9 54:12,19,23 57:4 63:6 64:1 72:17 offers 67:1 oh 65:20 69:16

70:21 okay5:17,18

12:4 16:13 18:20 19:6 22:13 23:24 25:6 31:1,19 32:4,9 33:10 33:11 34:15 36:22 37:2 37:14 39:18 40:18 41:17 42:15 46:22 48:22 49:6 54:6,9 56:24 57:11,22 61:17,23 62:6,12 64:14 65:6,9 66:23,24 68:5,8,15,22 69:10 70:15 72:8,10,10 72:14,19 73:6,15 Oklahoma

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36:23 organizations

16:17 original 13:1,1 otherwise 16:24 24:10 outcome5:11

38:3 outcomes

20:17 outlined 21:11

39:22 output6:1

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11:12 19:18 22:23 33:18 46:7,8 51:16 54:7 overall 21:10

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49:25 50:4 51:20 overlap 17:6

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45:20 P P 1:4,4 3:1 pace 18:7 package 21:10

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38:11 parity43:24 part5:21 35:23 37:1,24 38:7 38:19 39:5 46:13 47:8 49:2 52:19 53:16,16 69:18 participated

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19:23 26:22 persuaded

40:13 perturbed

36:13,14 PG&E 3:17,19

24:4 35:10 56:14 Ph.D 1:5 2:3

## Meeting June 10, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 13 phase 10:7,10

21:19 33:14 33:17 39:19 39:20 58:7 60:7 phase-out

49:5 phrase 33:15 phrasing

21:24 pick51:15 picture44:8 piece 69:16

72:17 place 44:15

50:16 51:16 54:25 plane 72:1 planning

62:10,11 plant53:11 player 12:24

47:6,6 plays47:5 please 60:9 plus 6:12

33:22 59:13 pocket 66:9 point6:6,8,16

8:18 9:16 10:10 11:5 15:13,20,23 19:15 21:7 21:22 27:11 28:4 31:23 33:7 34:4,21 34:21 37:2,9 40:23 48:22 50:8 53:10 53:13 54:14 57:8,17,23 59:11 66:14 67:14 pointed 11:18 pointing 51:1 points 5:18

12:17 29:21 30:9 51:10 68:17 policy20:22 polishing

18:25 population

40:24 portfolio 15:25

17:14 portion 6:22

8:23 position 10:12

60:16,17 possible 49:10 Possibly 14:11 post35:6 practical 27:8 practice 55:12 preamble 57:7 precise 11:15

11:22 precision

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30:11 predict49:14 predicted

49:21 50:9 50:10,21,25 51:4 predicting

51:8 predicts 49:16 preface 69:25 prefer27:4 preference

6:11 prepared

14:17 37:8 41:8,9 45:17 present 18:24 40:1 presented

21:8 39:23 presenting

19:1 60:21 press 12:21 pressure

15:16 26:20 28:19 53:4 pressures

6:23 pretty6:5 10:7

19:20 40:16 42:18,23 45:5 price49:1,20

49:24,25 50:11 prices 50:10 pricing 51:13

51:16 priming 24:25

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68:14 principle

38:22,23 prior 10:20

12:10 14:10 41:25 Pro 6:12 probably8:22

13:10 26:17 26:21 46:19 48:14 53:21 57:13,14 69:4,12 problem 15:24

69:22 procedure

13:18,20,22 17:23 23:8 26:17,18 27:6 30:4 34:4,7,13,18 35:2 69:14 69:15,17 70:20,21,22 71:1,4 procedures

6:4 72:24 proceeding

30:6,7 proceedings

74:5 process 9:14

9:21 15:23 19:9 54:22 57:5 product6:19

6:21 8:1,3 17:25 21:14 21:15 36:2 38:12 52:4 55:15,16 production

53:3 products 9:24

33:16 49:22 profit7:11 profits 52:12 program 55:15 programs 6:13

25:3 prohibit26:5 Project3:22 projected 7:7 proposal 7:24

11:24 18:15 18:24 22:8 22:21 26:1 39:14,21,22 39:24 40:2,3 40:11,13 41:1,7,12,13 41:18,25 42:8,11 43:16,24,25 44:4,10,19 57:25 58:2,3 58:12 61:1 65:13 proposals

41:19,21 42:2 propose 10:18

42:10,15 62:18 proposed 22:8

44:1,1,23,24 48:3 58:4 73:2 proposing

42:13 provide48:9 provided 5:6

10:24 providing 5:9 public 20:22

25:4 72:17 73:7,15 publish 73:2 published

73:4 pull 15:5 pump24:25

25:1 63:14 pumps 62:24

63:8,16 purchased 9:4 purchasing

13:12 pure27:10 purely70:16 push 10:3

41:22 42:4 put 18:7 25:2

31:15 49:9 53:4 60:5 putting 59:16 Q

## Meeting June 10, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 14 quad 11:23

43:25 44:24 44:24 54:18 54:23 59:17 62:20 63:1 66:8 67:10 quadruple

28:12,21 quads 10:16

10:17,23 11:14,19 12:3,5,16 39:21 40:1,1 40:5,11,14 41:1,8 42:18 42:20,21 43:4,6,12 45:12 55:21 55:24 56:2 58:1,4,9,14 58:21,25 59:13 61:10 62:21 64:1 66:13 67:13 qualifications

31:6 quantify30:1 quarter 18:11 question

11:25 17:4 22:24 24:1,3 25:13 26:4 31:24 32:5,6 32:6,8 35:11 47:17,23 48:1,18 53:1 56:19 61:18 65:6 67:7,21 70:5,6,12 71:5 questioning

38:9 questions

11:8 13:15 22:11 32:5 45:10 quick53:25,25

56:14 65:3 quiet38:9 quite45:16 quoting 39:25 R R 1:4 3:1 raised 23:25

70:4 Ramirez 1:25

3:2,6 4:13,16 4:19 5:16 17:18 18:10 18:13,22 19:4 35:15 47:12 48:7 48:17 50:7 53:19 54:3 56:18,22,24 60:25 61:3 61:24 62:1,4 62:14 64:4,6 64:11 65:3,8 66:4,12,17 66:24 67:21 68:2,7,9,22 69:1,7,10,17 70:9,15,23 71:1,16,21 72:2,13,22 73:6,14 ran 46:16 range46:19

63:1 Raquel 1:24

4:6 rate 51:4 rated 17:24 rather22:15

23:18 31:7 42:4,9 64:9 ratio 6:1 raw 8:6 reach 52:23 read 69:19 Reading 5:24 ready3:3

18:24 19:5 49:18 54:7 real 9:6 27:2,8 realistic 7:12 reality8:5,12

9:1 11:1 55:12 really9:10

10:14 12:18 15:13 25:3 26:21 27:2 27:10,13 28:6 29:14 36:6,12 45:18 46:21 57:21 reason 8:22

22:2 43:11 49:2 51:20 reasonable

20:3 reasons 10:13 rebate25:3 recapitalize

53:10 recently8:19 Recess 18:12

18:21 54:2 56:23 61:25 64:5 65:5 reclining

48:25 recognizing

13:4 recollection

33:25 recommend...

17:10 record 3:5 4:14 62:8,9 64:11 74:6 redefining

24:15 redesign 58:7 redo 31:11,12 redone29:12

29:13 reduce 12:23

49:6 reducing

40:11 reduction

12:16 46:24 reductions

20:24 refine 30:23 reframed 40:5 refrigerant

49:5 reg 38:5 reg/neg 16:19

31:4 regardless

5:11 regional 17:22 regret28:3 regulated

13:24 14:24 32:2 38:12 38:12 55:4 regulation

24:21 38:3 50:16,17 53:5,6,11 regulations

32:16 52:19 53:8 regulatory

28:14 37:17 relative42:4

74:7,9 relatively7:6 42:22 released 16:20

17:24 remark 17:12 remember

18:4 remembered

62:7 repeatedly

37:3 reply49:18 reported 5:13 reporter62:8

74:1,4 reporting

55:14 68:20 represent

16:17 41:3 represented

38:1 representing

47:4 represents

43:22 request 14:5 required 28:10

28:16 34:5,6 35:3 38:2 requirements

23:15 28:19 requires 30:5 reread 60:8 resolved 16:15 resolving 17:1 respect 22:24

25:11 57:22 respond 21:6

47:23 48:19 51:10 53:20 responding

9:7 response

47:24 54:9 55:19,22

## Meeting June 10, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 15 rest 31:16 restate 12:14 result 59:17

63:24 retaining 7:11 retest28:10

31:12 34:12 return 13:1 review 67:18

71:13 revised 23:20

32:1,11,11 revision 9:18

16:23 29:7 revisit37:5 reword 11:2 rewrote 22:6 Rheem 3:13

51:9 right3:2,3

4:22 15:7 16:5 18:13 18:22 19:4 20:17 21:3 22:17 24:7 27:10 28:2 28:23 29:19 30:1,3,11 31:17 33:2 33:13,14 34:4,10 38:4 39:4,13 42:19 43:1 43:17 45:19 45:19 46:4 48:4,5,11,25 49:10,11 50:2,12,15 52:6 53:6,23 54:3 55:25 57:20 58:11 60:11,19 61:24 62:4 62:15,17 64:4,6 65:17 65:24 66:1 66:12,17 67:8,21 68:8 68:11 70:1 71:6 72:1,2,6 72:9,10 rightly 12:17 Rivest2:1 4:5

4:5 48:4,6,9 65:19 Robert2:10 rolling 4:22 room 28:21

35:13 36:16 Rosenquist

2:2 4:3,3 63:21 65:14 65:20 roughly63:14 row-wise

60:22 RTU 26:11 rule22:20

30:23 39:11 44:24 49:22 58:5 73:2,4 rule-making

22:19 23:22 25:21 30:19 30:22 38:13 59:10 run 42:17 43:7

43:7 45:12 46:15 48:2 51:2 64:16 64:19 65:23 66:15 running 46:3

57:2 rush 72:15 Rusty2:7 3:11

4:25 11:9,10 12:1 19:1,10 26:7 27:12 32:12 35:10 35:15,16 46:11 48:9 59:18 63:25 64:22 66:7 66:12 S S 1:4 2:19 3:1

74:3,17 Sachs 2:3 3:12

3:12 12:18 15:22 16:13 30:14 31:2 31:14,20 38:8,17 56:6 60:21 61:1,4 61:7,9,12,16 61:18,21 64:3 66:20 73:9 Sam 1:20 4:21 same 10:20

14:14 18:7 21:7 25:24 36:22 42:11 43:14 49:16 53:5 59:17 61:21 63:15 63:23 66:22 Sami 2:13 3:25

54:4 San 62:11 save39:21,24

40:11 58:2,4 savings 5:13

10:23 11:18 11:23 12:16 15:17 20:22 40:17,22 41:7,10,11 42:7,22 43:9 43:13,15 44:5,14 45:5 45:7 54:18 54:20,23 58:1 59:8 say5:6 9:11

12:1 20:8,8 24:25 26:2 28:6 30:21 35:2 36:13 37:25 44:22 45:8 46:12 51:24 57:20 61:8 62:9,10 63:2 71:8 saying 24:23

30:15 31:16 33:5,8 44:15 50:2 58:24 59:5,11 60:16 says 16:17 scenario 43:7

46:16 51:1,3 scenarios

42:17 51:2 scope 25:13

25:14,17 26:2,6 27:17 28:7,7 29:13 29:13 30:12 57:14 second 5:12

5:19 33:3 61:6 section 6:4

16:11 see 6:15 11:11

22:14 25:22 26:19 31:10 32:7 36:14 40:24 41:9 47:19 53:19 56:15 57:21 57:25 60:21 64:19 65:1 67:2 68:13 71:7 72:3 seeing 51:12

52:2 seen 21:24 self-confide...

13:7 semi-regulat...

23:17 send 65:16 sense 43:2 separate 15:6

23:8 separately

38:13 sequentially

25:20 serious 46:24 services 6:2 set 9:17 35:4

49:7 65:17 setting 52:19 settle 56:16 several 35:25

36:23 52:11 54:16 severe50:25 shall 22:19,20

24:25 30:22 30:23 share 4:23

20:18 shared 21:21

21:25 shareholders

50:24 52:13 she's 72:7 sheet 12:6

16:16 17:23 18:2,5,8 21:24 30:20 30:21 66:6 67:9,15,16

## Meeting June 10, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 16 67:25 69:21 69:23 71:12 Shepherd 2:4

2:19 4:11,11 74:3,17 shipment 7:5

8:5 51:5 shipments 7:5

7:7 8:4,10 48:25 49:1 50:9 51:3 52:7 shipped 26:12 shoot21:1

40:6 Shorthand

74:3 shot66:6 should 9:11,17

9:25 13:14 14:1 17:2 20:8 25:18 25:19,23 38:13 52:18 56:9 57:9,10 shouldn't

13:11 20:8 show 68:13

72:3 showed 43:15 showing 45:18 shows 2:5

40:19 72:7 shrinking

13:13 shuffling

67:20 side 12:23 sides 47:14

73:13,13 sign 30:15 significant 6:5

8:23 44:2,3 47:7,9 significantly 7:20 signing 30:18 similar 63:23 simple 55:18 simply48:23 simulation

29:11 31:11 31:12 simulations

24:5 31:7 simultaneous

69:16 since 13:11

20:9 36:15 62:7 63:21 single 23:10 single-digit

7:19 sit56:12 site24:20 sitting 38:7

67:19 six 8:24 28:22 skip 22:23 slide 39:25

40:2 slides 39:22 slower 63:2 slowly61:7,8 slug 19:18 small 10:19

40:4,20 41:16,22,25 42:2,5,9 43:17 47:5,6 47:6 55:21 57:22 58:17 60:10 61:2,5 smaller41:18 smarts 49:8 software 6:10

6:11 solid 62:2 some 5:7,9,9 9:17 11:15 14:14 21:21 21:22 22:2 22:11 23:15 24:24 26:23 27:19 28:2 28:11,17,18 28:18 29:23 32:23 33:4,5 33:7,7 34:18 37:20 38:9 41:8 42:17 43:11 46:13 48:2 51:16 51:18 53:21 57:6,20 59:11 60:5,6 68:18,21 71:14 somebody

62:7 somehow 72:1 someone's

53:9 something 8:1

13:22 21:16 23:13 30:21 32:12,13,14 32:23 35:17 39:10 44:23 46:23 47:15 52:6,17 57:9 59:24 66:21 69:12,23 sometime 29:1 sometimes

52:1 somewhere

44:13 64:22 soon 18:18

29:9 48:2 sooner22:15

23:17,23 sorry4:13,19 22:1 36:18 39:25 44:9 48:7 50:7 55:5 60:7 61:3 70:23 sort 10:12

25:11 26:16 27:18 28:1 31:2 36:24 38:9 44:7,11 48:23 55:1 57:15 63:24 soup 59:13 sources 12:20 south 51:21 speak38:5,6

46:18 71:9 SPEAKER

34:24,25 61:8 62:13 71:9,20 speaking

27:15 47:1 speaks 60:22 specific 8:4

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59:19 speech 49:17 spend 69:12 spending 66:2 split42:15

43:5 58:12 58:13,21 squeeze 52:14

53:25,25 stakeholders

69:25 stand 58:13 standard

19:21 29:1 33:13,13 34:7,20 44:8 49:7,9 standards

3:22 17:22 20:25 32:18 35:4 51:14 51:25 standpoint

5:24 27:8 54:21 Starr2:6 3:15

3:15 26:15 start5:3 29:3

29:14 30:16 73:3 started 3:3,4

18:23 39:20 54:4 57:14 64:4,6,7 73:11 starting 9:19

21:7 starts 31:13 starve56:13 stashing 66:13 state 14:18

64:10 stated 10:12 statement

12:13 48:20 70:3 static 6:23 7:3

15:16 26:20 28:19 statute5:25 stay42:11 steel 31:7 steering 27:19

36:7 step 34:16,20

35:6 55:18 57:24 58:9,9 Steven 1:18

## Meeting June 10, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 17 4:21 72:6 stick42:8 still 7:15,16

8:11 11:13 13:5 20:19 24:12 32:17 34:16 52:22 55:10 59:25 67:9,9 stock39:4 stop 53:16 store 7:1 straight 64:11 strategic

12:22 13:9 stretch 65:3 strikes 57:8 stringency

44:12 strong 19:21

25:4 57:11 struck68:21 stuff 15:19

33:20,25 46:14 47:5 67:20 style7:1 Sub-A24:11 Sub-B 23:13

23:21 24:11 24:18 32:12 32:19 sub-bullet

13:18 Sub-point9:23

10:2 subject 12:17

25:8 submit55:7,9 submitted

9:15 55:17 such 6:3 13:22

17:10 suffered 13:6 sufficiently 30:12 suggest 13:14

30:20 46:17 46:18 suggesting

43:23 60:2 suggestion

16:25 Sunday67:17 support 19:21

25:4 supported

16:12 supposed

39:14 52:20 sure25:9

30:12 32:5 45:15 50:12 61:16 65:3 68:14 69:21 71:16 surpassed

52:5 surprised

48:10 68:6 system 13:25

20:23 27:19 27:21,21 55:14 T table 10:5 15:10 17:10 20:25 30:18 47:10 73:13 table's 14:17 tackle 22:9 tackled 57:15 take 11:7,16 15:14 22:5 28:11,20 29:25,25 30:17 44:23 45:10 48:19 56:20 57:20 58:10,25 59:7 62:22 65:10,12,23 66:6 72:2 taken 8:16 18:12,21 54:2 56:23 61:25 64:5 65:5 takes 28:22

42:6 53:2 60:18 64:1 taking 7:20 15:14 20:5 45:4,4 60:16 60:17 62:18 talent49:8 talk 13:11 17:2 17:16 22:11 56:17,25 68:3,3 talked 10:25

60:4 talking 5:4

7:21 11:1 27:13 28:24 31:16 63:4 69:16 tangential 12:19 target 9:22 10:13,15 21:1 40:6,8 task21:6 tea 19:23 team 61:17 teleconferen...

67:18,19 tell 29:10 32:7

50:12,14 58:14 telling 45:24 65:14 ten 47:18

50:19 tend 36:6 tends 36:6 tentative21:10

68:10 72:3 tentatively

70:13 tenth 62:25

63:17 67:10 67:13 tenths 66:8 term 5:25 16:16 18:5 23:20 30:20 30:21 66:6 67:15,16 terms 17:22 18:2,8 20:5 21:24 27:4 38:21 44:12 67:8,25 69:21,23 71:12 terribly48:11 test 6:4 7:3

9:16,17,23 10:2,4 13:18 13:20,22 14:23 15:6,8 15:11 16:20 17:23 20:6 22:13,14 23:1 25:12 26:17,18 27:2,6,25 28:17,21 29:7,15,15 29:22 30:4,6 30:7 32:16 32:18,22 33:9,22,22 34:3,6,13,18 35:2,9 39:8 69:14,15,17 70:20,21,22 71:1,4 72:24 tested 33:17

34:1 testing 21:13

28:9,9,13 29:19 33:5 36:1 tests 28:15

29:17 31:25 text21:22 than 7:3,17 12:8 13:3,3 21:2 22:16 23:18 28:5 30:19 31:7 40:14 41:20 41:22 42:3 44:4,5,5,9 45:7 54:19 55:13 57:16 59:3,5,25 thank5:1,8 12:12 18:10 18:20 19:6,6 24:13,22 25:5 35:7 36:10 56:2,8 61:24 66:23 66:24 72:19 73:6,9,10,12 73:14 thanks 11:9

48:8 Tharp2:7 3:11

3:11 4:25,25 5:18 12:4,10 19:13 23:5,7 25:7 26:7,7 26:10 27:12 27:12 35:14 35:16,16,23

## Meeting June 10, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 18 46:11,11,23 48:1,5 50:6 54:9 56:2,5,7 56:11 59:18 59:22,24 60:8,12 61:10,15,20 61:23 62:3,6 62:17 63:3,6 63:12 64:2,7 65:2,6,9,22 65:25 66:10 66:14 67:1 67:11 69:14 70:20 therefore 14:1

53:7 thermodyna...

52:9 thing 14:10 17:1 21:11 27:9 42:21 56:14 62:6 66:22 70:18 73:11 things 8:18 10:15 15:14 18:6 25:23 28:5 30:9,11 35:12 36:8,9 42:7,25 43:2 52:11 71:14 think5:12,22

7:4,8,12 9:9 9:20,24 10:14 11:24 13:4,6 14:17 15:18,18 16:10 17:2 17:11,19 18:1,3,7 19:15 20:3,4 20:11,12 21:9,15,20 21:22,25 22:15 25:8 25:12 26:7 26:22 27:16 27:18,22,22 27:22 29:16 30:10,18 31:14 32:21 35:18 36:16 36:24 37:8 37:12,16,17 38:9,23 39:13 40:8 40:12,21,23 45:1 46:7,7,8 47:13 48:12 48:15 50:18 51:8 52:4,17 53:2 55:1,3 55:18,19 56:9 57:5,10 57:17 60:3 60:18 61:3 66:14 67:16 68:16,24 69:3,4,5 70:5 70:6,10 71:2 71:6,13 72:7 thinking 26:25

33:15 62:5 65:19,20 third 6:25 9:16

70:18 thought26:16

67:25 70:9 thoughts

63:19 thousands

51:21 threats 19:25 19:25 three 5:6 8:25

9:1,2 19:3 25:11 27:23 59:13 68:25 73:4 three-year

25:21 thumbs 68:13

72:3,9,18 Thursday

71:13 tie 18:1 24:9

28:1 tied 17:7 18:5 time 5:7 9:12

9:17 17:19 21:15 22:22 25:19,24 27:24 33:6,7 37:21 42:24 44:11,12 45:2 46:1,9 47:19,24 48:16,18,19 49:4,4 52:24 53:20,22 56:18,19 57:2,3,6,20 62:3,14 64:25 67:18 68:24 69:13 timely22:14 times 28:21

54:16 timing 18:17

25:12 53:12 57:1 title 6:4 today6:10

7:13 28:2 37:5 38:7 39:11 55:13 56:16 57:4 57:11 today's8:7 together37:21

54:11,13 told 18:25 62:9 tomorrow

65:16,25 71:17,19,21 tonight65:15 took49:23 topic24:1

36:12 57:12 topics 25:15

25:18 30:25 68:19 Toro 1:11 4:20 total 6:7 9:20

64:2 tough 21:14 tough-to-test

21:14 toward 16:18 trade44:11 Trane 3:9 4:10 transcribe

74:4 TRANSCRIB...

2:19 transcript 74:5 transition

24:24 transparency

6:14,14 trip 62:11 triple 54:24 truck39:12 true43:22 74:5 truly54:10 try 10:3,4 18:15 19:10 23:14,22 36:14 48:22 52:12 54:5 57:10 trying 15:20 16:25 21:22 27:24 34:19 45:23,23,25 48:21 54:11 54:16 55:1 55:19,24 71:15 72:1 TSL41:1 42:6 TSL-1 60:7 TSL-3 12:6,11

54:18 TSL-4 12:8 TSLs 41:9 tuck64:22 tummies 53:21 turn 11:5 two 12:22 17:6 17:6 32:3,4 32:22 36:14 38:24 39:2 43:11 47:18 51:2 59:1,16 59:19 two-step 46:14 two-tenths

63:18 two-tier45:19 types36:9 typically20:4 U U.S.C 5:25 ultimately28:3 unanimity 11:2

11:3 uncertainty

12:17,20 uncomforta...

44:4 underestima...

49:24 underestima...

40:22 underneath

17:12 understand

12:2 18:23

## Meeting June 10, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 19 29:5 37:3 46:2 48:21 57:4 60:1 69:24 understandi...

5:12 6:12 12:21 14:6 68:9 Unfortunately

43:10 unit42:8 UNITARY 1:1 units 8:8,9,11

8:13 15:9 40:20 unless 13:15 unregulated

55:9 upon 17:23

18:5 upstream 25:3 use 6:3,11

31:5 34:3,5,9 34:13 46:8 47:19,24 48:16 52:24 useful 6:1 usually33:18 utilities 25:5 V valuable43:4 value 11:16

21:16 28:17 40:1 41:6 42:24 values 6:24

9:14 10:8,18 54:22,25 55:7,8,11,17 57:19 60:20 vastly 13:2 ventilation

5:21,23 6:6 9:19 15:15 23:11 26:8 26:21 30:1 30:24 31:16 verging 31:22 verified 8:2

55:5,11,16 verify55:8

65:13 verifying9:14 versus44:12 via 1:8,11,14 1:16,18,20 2:5,8,11 23:23 view 15:23

42:25 43:23 44:2 46:4 52:25 53:1 viewpoint

53:14 violet 13:13 volume8:8

42:8 volumes 8:5

63:16 volun-told

69:8 voluntarily

34:8,8 volunteered

69:7 vote68:11,13

72:3 voted 72:18 W wait 67:2 waiting 5:2 Waltner2:8

4:21 want 4:13 5:1

5:8,10 8:18 13:5 15:3,4 18:16 22:10 22:14,17 23:5 24:2,9 24:11 25:3 25:17,17,20 25:21,24 26:14 28:1,6 30:10,11,17 34:11 37:13 38:16,17,20 39:9 46:21 47:9,19,19 47:24,25 48:18,19,23 51:10 53:17 55:6,8,9 56:25 60:6 64:15,16,19 65:21,22 66:2 68:18 71:7 wanted 11:21

23:2 35:8 warts 19:16 wasn't 12:10 13:19 34:5,5 39:15 72:24 72:25 way 15:8 17:1

20:21 21:1 22:14 23:1 35:5 37:17 39:8,16 42:25 50:18 57:25 58:14 58:15 59:3,4 60:4 72:18 73:2 ways 20:17

59:2 we'd 6:15 10:10 27:4 65:1 71:6 we're 3:4 5:22 6:18,21 7:4 7:20 8:8,11 8:12 9:24 11:21 13:21 13:22 14:19 15:14,19 17:13 19:15 19:16 20:2 21:22 22:21 24:21 27:13 27:22,22 28:24 29:23 30:10,12,18 31:16 32:18 34:16 36:13 36:13,13,15 37:12,15 39:24 41:8,9 41:14,16,24 42:1,5,11,13 43:4,25 44:8 44:15 45:20 45:22,23,23 47:6 49:2,2 52:2,2 54:6 54:13 55:10 55:13,21 57:1,3,25 58:19,22,24 58:24 59:5,6 59:6,15,15 60:14,15,16 61:22 62:25 63:4 64:20 64:23,24 68:12,15 69:22 71:15 71:15 we've 5:4 6:24 10:25 11:11 15:14,19 18:2 21:3,9 21:13 25:2 25:13 31:5 35:5,24 41:17 42:16 43:16 49:12 52:4 57:22 57:23 58:16 58:16 59:4 65:24 70:13 71:25 webinar 1:8,11 1:14,16,18 1:20 2:5,8,11 week39:20 weigh 30:9 weighed 47:15 went 16:11,11

21:25 24:16 59:9 Westphalen

2:9 4:15,15 4:18 whenever 19:4

54:7 where 6:17,23

7:2 8:7 9:11 9:13 12:15 12:24 19:15 19:22 36:6,6 36:8 39:20 45:17 53:6,9 53:10 55:8 57:14,23 58:13 66:12 66:25 where's 72:21 whether 17:9 17:12 23:8 24:11 26:1,3 29:11 36:23 53:11 white 8:19 Whitwell 2:10

3:8,8 11:9,10 23:24 29:3 29:16,18,21

## Meeting June 10, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 20 36:18 56:1,4 66:2 67:4,5 71:4 who's 13:12

65:6 66:5 67:15,22 whole 17:22

59:13 wide 49:25

50:1,3 willing 11:4

37:15 41:14 41:16,24 43:5 44:22 58:24 59:20 62:23 Wilson 2:11

4:20 win 65:7 win-wins

20:17 Winningham

2:12 3:14,14 15:12 16:1,4 22:10 within 11:3

29:24 36:20 55:16 word 11:2 wording 31:17

31:18 69:14 69:15 words 13:19

21:23 22:6 26:19 31:15 wordsmith

57:10 wordsmithing

21:21 25:9 55:6 56:15 67:20 work5:8 9:4 10:3,4 13:20 23:2 27:19 37:21,21 39:11,17 43:9,12 57:9 59:12,14 68:4,4,7,18 68:21 69:1 71:22 72:4 73:11 worked 8:24

9:1 11:12 working 1:1

4:24 14:11 16:7,7,18 17:6,21 18:19 21:4 27:25 36:8 38:6,18,24 39:15 54:10 67:24 68:19 70:1 73:3 works 42:25

68:11 69:21 world 7:13

42:25,25 43:23 worry27:11

29:14 worst 50:14

51:7 worth 38:10

40:3,4,13 42:19 59:12 63:11 68:17 wrong 46:12 wrote 22:6 X Y yeah 11:9 12:7 14:13 23:6 24:4 25:8 26:9 27:23 28:5,6 29:16 32:24 50:7 54:6 60:1 61:20 63:21 67:4 69:3,9 69:18,20 70:5,9 71:6 72:2 year8:8,9,12

8:13 22:22 42:18 43:5 43:19,20 65:7 years7:8 9:5

20:7,8 27:23 28:22 31:3 41:15 42:14 44:9,9,13 49:12,13 55:16 59:13 73:4 yesterday 12:5 12:6,15 20:16 22:16 32:22 39:23 40:2,5,9,10 41:1 42:17 43:15,24 45:16 yet20:18

40:20 42:5 yield 40:17

44:19 yields40:21 Z Zendah 2:13

3:25,25 Zero 63:3 0 0.2 62:19 63:8 0.3 62:19 63:7 0.9 10:16 1 1 5:19 10:7 11:20 39:19 51:24 60:7 60:18,18 1.0 62:24 1.3 10:17 1.5 58:4,25

59:12 1:30 53:23,24

54:1 10 1:3 7:18

49:20 50:3 54:6 65:7 100 55:16 100,000 8:8,9

8:11 11 8:1 19:11

39:25 40:2 12 5:18 19:13 12.1 40:4 12.2 10:11 12th 74:12 13.5 10:23

11:18 41:8 41:13 14.3 56:1,2,8,8

58:2 14.7 62:22

64:1 14.8 55:24

58:20 61:13 61:14 63:1 64:2,2,17,17 14.9 58:20

61:13,14 64:2,17 15 18:18 20:10 15.4 12:5

40:11,14 41:1,4 43:12 43:21 58:1 16 72:25 16.3 10:12

12:6 40:7 41:6,13 17.1 39:21 18.2 40:1 19 72:25,25 19.6 12:7 1st 9:20,21

22:21 30:22 30:23 2 2 5:21 7:16

10:10,21 11:20 21:19 34:16,20 35:6 39:20 54:5 2.4 12:16 2.5 10:19,22

42:6 55:23 56:3,6 58:23 60:14 61:5,9 63:7 2.75 60:18 20 7:25 2005 49:22

51:19 2010 49:23

51:19 2015 1:3 74:12 2016 9:20

30:22 62:11 72:25 73:1 2018 9:22 10:8 2019 9:22

19:22 22:21 30:23 34:18 35:2 72:25 2021 56:4 2022 42:16 2023 42:16

55:23 56:5 58:8 2024 10:19,22

42:15 2025 29:2

## Meeting June 10, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 21 25 8:113 3 5:25 6:8 7:16

40:18 43:9 55:21,22 56:3,3 58:19 58:22,23 60:13,15 61:4,4,4,4,7 61:9,9,9,9,19 62:18 63:6,6 3.0 10:21 41:2

41:17,24 42:8,9,12,13 60:10 3.25 60:19 3.5 40:11,18

40:22 41:1 41:17,25 42:6,9,12 44:21 58:19 58:20 60:14 61:5,9 30 7:8 46:19

46:24 53:23 30-odd 20:7,8 3B 22:25 25:7 4 4 6:16 42:18

42:20,21,22 43:4,6 54:5 62:21 63:13 4.9 54:23 42 5:25 5 5 6:19 28:21

49:20 50:2,6 6 6 6:23 54:5 6311 5:25 6314 6:4 7 7 7:4 40:1

62:23,24 63:9 7.1 7:22 7/.8/1.0 63:9 75 8:10 75,000 8:12 8 8 7:13 54:6

62:24 81 9:9,10,11 9 9 7:14,22 12:3

12:10 9:00 72:12,13 9:30 5:3 90 50:4 90.1 10:6,8

23:2,15,16 23:23 54:22 54:25 95 50:4,5