FEDERAL AVIATION ADMINISTRATION

 Small Airplane Directorate

 Part 23 Reorganization

 Notice of Proposed Rulemaking

 May 4, 2016

 8:08 a.m. 

 Public Hearing

 Georgia International Convention Center

 Atlanta, Georgia

 REGENCY-BRENTANO, INC. 

 Certified Court Reporting 

 Suite 140 

 13 Corporate Square 

 Atlanta, Georgia 30329

 (404) 321-3333
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1 Attendees:

2 Bill Schinstock

 Lowell Foster

3 Pat Mullen

 Jeff Pretz

4 Jim Brady

 John Vanhoudt

5 Mark James

 Mike Reyer

6 Paul Pellicano

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
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1 (Wednesday, May 4, 2016 8:08 a.m.)

2 MR. BILL SCHINSTOCK: Welcome to

3 the second day of the public meeting on the

4 part 23 Notice of Proposed Rulemaking. I

5 you could find your seats, we will get

6 started. There are a few new faces in the

7 crowd, so I am going to read some of what I

8 read yesterday just to give them an idea of

9 the ground rules.

10 The purpose of this meeting is to

11 solicit comments and additional information

12 from the public on the FAA part 23 Notice of

13 Proposed Rulemaking.

14 I would like to introduce some of

15 the FAA people that are here on the panel

16 with me. Lowell Foster is the primary

17 engineer on this project. He is in the

18 Small Airplane Directorate. In fact,

19 everybody on the panel is from the Small

20 Airplane Directorate.

21 Pat Mullen, who is the acting

22 manager for the Small Airplane Directorate

23 right now.

24 Next to him is Mark James, a

25 structures specialist. And then Jim Brady,
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1 a systems specialist.

2 John Vanhoudt joins us today, he is

3 a propulsion specialist. Paul Pellicano,

4 icing specialist; and Mike Reyer, our

5 structures and loads specialist.

6 We have a few more people in the

7 audience from the FAA and I am going to give

8 them a chance to introduce themselves in a

9 moment, but I am also going to give

10 everybody in the audience a chance to

11 introduce yourselves, so be prepared for

12 that. We are going to pass the mic around

13 just so everybody knows who is here.

14 I would like to acknowledge one FAA

15 employee, Lirio Liu, she is the director of

16 the Office of Rulemaking for the FAA and we

17 are very pleased to have Lirio here to help

18 us with this process and get this rule

19 through. It is an indication of the

20 priority the FAA is putting this rule, so

21 thank you very much, Lirio, for coming.

22 So at this time let's pass the mic

23 around.

24 MR. RICH ADLER: I am Rich Adler

25 and I am with the FAA here from DC and
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1 representing AIR-111 which is the

2 certification procedures branch.

3 MR. DAVE FAIRBACK: Good morning.

4 I am Dave Fairback with the FAA. I recently

5 joined the Small Airplane Directorate

6 standard staff for mechanical systems.

7 MR. JEFF PRETZ: My name is Jeff

8 Pretz. I am with the Small Airplane

9 Directorate, standards staff propulsion

10 specialist.

11 MR. DAVID ARMSTRONG: David

12 Armstrong. I am here representing Garmin

13 International.

14 MS. RALEN GAO: Ralen Gao, FAA

15 Office of Rulemaking?

16 MS. AMY LUBRANO: Amy Lubrano with

17 The Regulatory Group. We support the FAA

18 Office of Rulemaking.

19 MR. STEVE THOMPSON: Good morning.

20 Steve Thompson, I work in the Small Airplane

21 Directorate standards offices.

22 MR. ANDY SAVINI: I am Andy Savini.

23 I am here representing Textron Aviation.

24 MR. GEORGE THURSTON: George

25 Thurston representing the FAA. I am the
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1 economist representing the policy office.

2 MR. JEFF WILLIAMS: I am Jeff

3 Williams from Astronautics Corporation.

4 MR. BRADY NEWMAN: Brady Newman

5 from Astronautics Corporation.

6 MR. STEVE ROSENFELD: I am Steve

7 Rosenfeld, and I represent the National Air

8 Traffic Controllers Association union

9 representing the certification employees for

10 the FAA.

11 MS. CATHY GAGNE: Cathy Gagne,

12 NTSB.

13 MR. BILL BRODEGARD: Bill

14 Brodegard, Aspen Avionics.

15 MR. NICK BOGNER: Nick Bogner,

16 BendixKing.

17 MR. BEN MORROW: Ben Morrow

18 BendixKing.

19 MS. KERRI HINTON: Kerri Hinton,

20 Kestrel Aero Aviation.

21 MS. KATIE PATRICK: Katie Patrick,

22 FAA. I am an attorney in the Regulations

23 Division.

24 MR. BRYAN LONG: Bryan Long, FAA

25 electrical systems.
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1 MR. WELDON WAINRIGHT: Weldon

2 Wainright, Powerplant consultant and the

3 DER.

4 MS. LIRIO LIU: Good morning.

5 Lirio Liu, Office of Rulemaking.

6 I did want to just add that I

7 appreciate everyone's participation and I

8 just want to make a point that with the FAA

9 in our rulemaking program, this is one of

10 the priorities that we are working on. I am

11 happy to be here and really wanted to have

12 the public meeting so that we can get the

13 comments so that we can try and analyze the

14 comments as quickly as possible to expedite

15 the rule. And we know that it is something

16 that the industry is looking forward, I

17 think, also within our organization and so

18 that is really where we are putting our

19 focus right now, so thank you for being

20 here.

21 MR. GEORGE UHRIN: George Uhrin,

22 Aviation Services.

23 MR. JUSTIN BARKOWSKI: Justin

24 Barkowski, AOPA.

25 MR. CARLOS AYALA: Carlos Ayala,
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1 Honda Aircraft.

2 MR. GREG BOWLES: Greg Bowles with

3 GAMA.

4 MR. STEVE JOSEPH: Steve Joseph,

5 Genesys Aerosystems.

6 MR. MITCH HUFFMAN: Mitch Huffman,

7 FAA Atlanta ACO, electrical system.

8 MR. RIC PERI: Ric Peri, Aircraft

9 Electronics Association.

10 MR. RANDY GRIFFITH: Randy

11 Griffith, Mooney.

12 MR. SAUL MAROOF: Saul Maroof,

13 Aircraft Certification Service, Washington,

14 DC.

15 MS. PRISCILLA STEWARD: Priscilla

16 Steward, FAA Production Certification

17 branch, Washington, DC.

18 MR. ANSEL JAMES: Good morning my

19 name is Ansel James and I am an engineer

20 with the Propulsion Branch of the Atlanta

21 Airfield.

22 MS. CINDY LORENZEN: Cindy

23 Lorenzen, and I am a program manager here at

24 the Atlanta ACO.

25 MS. LIZ CORY: Liz Cory, office of
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1 communications with the FAA.

2 MS. JENNIFER KILEO: Jennifer

3 Kileo, FAA Small Airplane Directorate,

4 communications commercial list.

5 MR. DAVID KESSLER: David Kessler,

6 directorate counsel, FAA.

7 MR. BILL SCHINSTOCK: Thank you, I

8 don't think we missed anybody, have we?

9 Okay, that is it.

10 We are here to facilitate

11 discussions and to provide clarifying

12 information so that we may develop as a

13 complete and useful record of these

14 proceedings as possible. Any comments

15 questions or statements made by the panel

16 members during the course this meeting

17 should not be taken as expressing a final

18 FAA position. That final position will be

19 represented in the final rule and preamble

20 to that rule. We will consider comments

21 made here by the public before making a

22 final decision on the issuance of the final

23 rule. Those comments will be dispositioned

24 in the final rule.

25 The proceedings are being
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1 transcribed by a Court Reporter. A verbatim

2 transcript of this meeting will be available

3 after May 15th, 2016. The information on

4 how to get that will be at the -- on the

5 docket, but we will publish a copy of the

6 full transcript in the public docket.

7 People wishing to make a comment or

8 ask a question should be recognized by the

9 panel and we would ask you to step up to the

10 microphone and please speak loudly. We have

11 on the phone a group of foreign authorities

12 that are listening to this -- these

13 proceedings so they could hear the comments

14 as well and it is hard for them to pick it

15 up, so, please, when you approach the mic,

16 please speak slowly and clearly and loudly.

17 We would appreciate that.

18 As I said, the proceedings are

19 being transcribed and will be placed on the

20 docket. The number -- the docket number for

21 this project is FAA-2015-1621. That is

22 FAA-2015-1621. And if you have not

23 registered yet outside, we would ask to you

24 please sign your name and your affiliation

25 and your (e)-mail address so we can send out
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1 information if we need to relative to this

2 meeting.

3 At this time I will open the floor

4 to see if everybody has any comments or

5 questions about the proceedings yesterday

6 before we proceed on today.

7 So at this point if anybody has a

8 question, please let me know. If not, we

9 will move on to Subpart (f), electrical

10 systems, and Jim Brady will present that

11 section. Thank you.

12 MR. JIM BRADY: Good morning. I am

13 Jim Brady and will be covering Subpart (f),

14 electrical systems. Can everyone hear me

15 because I know that we had trouble with the

16 mic yesterday so -- okay.

17 Subpart (f), when we reviewed the

18 original or the current rules, we believed

19 that the prescriptive language in those

20 rules were not necessarily relevant to the

21 change in technology that we are currently

22 seeing. The rules were written based on the

23 technology available at the time the rule

24 was written. And although appropriate for

25 legacy technology, it may not be adequate or
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1 efficient for new technologies to be

2 introduced. We want to facilitate the

3 introduction of new safety-enhancing systems

4 into the system. We consolidated the

5 language to maintain the safety requirements

6 for the traditional designs and attempted to

7 allow flexibility for new technologies over

8 time. As an example, in the 1300 rules, we

9 took 37 rules and consolidated them down to

10 eight. The 1300 rule should be -- or was

11 intended to be at an aircraft level, broken

12 down into two basic parts: The first for

13 required equipment as dictated by the

14 operating rules, and the second for

15 non-required equipment that is

16 safety-enhancing. It contains portions of

17 16 current rules can be found in the

18 language embedded in this one rule.

19 MR. DAVID ARMSTRONG: David

20 Armstrong from Garmin. The comment we have

21 is on part (b) and it's clearly outside the

22 contents in this rule for the operation of a

23 system and not affecting anything else but

24 we think the failure part ought to be left

25 to the rule that replaces 1309. We don't
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1 think that the "or failure" should be part

2 of this regulation.

3 MR. JIM BRADY: Thank you for that

4 comment. And, again, if we can add that to

5 the written comments, we would appreciate

6 that as well.

7 The new proposed 1305 is more at

8 the equipment level. You know, this is the

9 exact same words where, you know, "must

10 perform its intended function" so things do

11 still have to work. That was one of the

12 questions that was brought up in an earlier

13 comment when we were writing the rules.

14 And, again, there is about 16 rules that

15 were collapsed into that one. Questions.

16 MR. GREG BOWLES: Greg Bowles from

17 GAMA. Thanks for the opportunity to ask a

18 question here, Jim. So 1305 would apply to

19 all equipment as it's written per 1300

20 before. There is a difference in the way

21 that required and non-required equipment is

22 treated -- required and non-required systems

23 are treated. We would prefer that this

24 section applied to required equipment so

25 that non-required equipment could be more of
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1 a market-driven issue as it's unnecessary

2 for safety. And we would assure that it, in

3 operation, was not unsafe through 1300. And

4 as David mentioned a second ago, we assured

5 that through failure it was safe through

6 1315, but its function would not be

7 regulated as long as it's safe.

8 MR. JIM BRADY: Thank you.

9 David, did you have another?

10 MR. DAVID ARMSTRONG: The other

11 remaining item that we have is the item (c),

12 the word presentation, we would suggest that

13 it has to be provided on an indicator or

14 display whereas in the past things that are

15 inherent like buffet may have been

16 acceptable. The word presentation could be

17 interpreted to include that.

18 MR. JIM BRADY: Thank you. Any

19 additional comments or questions?

20 1310, flight navigation and

21 powerplant instruments has been collapsed

22 into this rule. It came from eight

23 different previous rules. You know, we

24 do -- the FAA believes that standardization

25 is important but the standardization that we
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1 previously had, based on traditional

2 designs, created barriers or perceived

3 barriers for new technologies and potential

4 new ways of displaying needed information,

5 so this should allow more flexibility.

6 Any questions?

7 MR. STEVE JOSEPH: Steve Joseph

8 with Genesys Aerosystems. In item (a)(1) it

9 includes trends now, and trends were

10 previously only covered in guidance

11 material. You can see that it's talking

12 about "as needed." Well, that is very

13 subjective. We are concerned that having

14 trends included in the regulation rather

15 than in guidance material will lead to a lot

16 more trends being required than are truly

17 needed.

18 The other comment is in regard to

19 subparagraph -- subitem (b), and this also

20 was previously covered only in guidance

21 material. We feel it's a bit prescriptive

22 and being as a regulation now could stifle

23 future innovation and alternate ways of, you

24 know, taking care of this particular item.

25 MR. JIM BRADY: Thank you. And,
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1 again, it would be helpful if you would also

2 capture that in written comments.

3 1315, this is the old 1309. And

4 again, it has been pared down to what we

5 believe is the essential safety intent. The

6 first part would require an engineering

7 safety analysis and the second part

8 maintains an inverse relationship between

9 the probability of failures and those

10 consequences.

11 Any comments?

12 MR. GREG BOWLES: Greg Bowles with

13 GAMA again. So two comments on this

14 section: The first comment is that 23.1315,

15 formerly mostly 1309, it's really important

16 that we coordinate very well this rule with

17 the ASA. The ASA has indicated through

18 their MPA a difference of approach in

19 including a correspondence table which also

20 included a second table that spoke to the

21 likelihood versus the failure level.

22 So if that is captured in guidance

23 or if that is captured in the rule is an

24 issue of debate. However, what is most

25 important is that we have the same path
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1 between the key authorities so that is a

2 very important issue.

3 The second point is that this rule

4 would be better served if it included a

5 provision that would allow for evaluation of

6 the level of risk of significantly

7 safety-enhancing equipment. So if there

8 were potentially a part (c) that the FAA

9 could allow changes to this rule based on

10 significantly safety-enhancing equipment.

11 MR. LOWELL FOSTER: I guess a

12 clarifying question, you said the risk of

13 safety-enhancing, but you talked about the

14 benefits. Could you elaborate on that a

15 little bit?

16 MR. GREG BOWLES: Sure. For

17 example, the FAA put out a policy of angle

18 of attack recently, and angle of attack

19 could have a failure mode which might

20 mislead a pilot during the landing. It

21 might have the wrong speed. That could be a

22 major hazard potentially. If -- there is

23 still a certified stall warning to back up

24 which would prevent the catastrophic issue.

25 Typically that AOA would not be
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1 allowed to be installed without going

2 through software and analysis of that

3 device, but because we suffer so many loss

4 of control accidents, we know that the

5 installation of that device would save a lot

6 of lives, so the FAA has written a policy

7 that has seen through, we will save X number

8 of lives for every installation and the

9 failure is unlikely even without the

10 substantiations that will allow it, so this

11 kind of mentality, allowing substantially

12 safety-enhancing technology into the

13 aircraft without the added cost of going

14 through some of the typical software and

15 electronic hardware evaluation, is

16 beneficial, we would like to make sure this

17 rule has the ability to do that.

18 MR. JIM BRADY: If I understand it

19 correctly, what you are saying is this --

20 your interpretation of this current rule,

21 it's two dimensional with failure versus

22 consequence. You would like to see a three

23 dimensional failure, consequence and risk?

24 MR. GREG BOWLES: Yes. And I think

25 that third dimension needs to be based on
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1 the FAA's determination of how substantial

2 the safety benefit is for that equipment.

3 So maybe the third dimension is only

4 exercised for substantial safety-benefitting

5 equipment.

6 MR. JIM BRADY: Thank you.

7 MR. DAVID ARMSTRONG: David

8 Armstrong, Garmin. I would like to echo

9 what Greg said. Additionally, I would like

10 to ask the consideration of the following:

11 Usually under 1309 we have addressed failure

12 conditions, and it's not clear why we

13 suddenly switched in (a) to addressing

14 failures, which is not the same thing as a

15 failure condition. Was there an intended

16 difference there that we should take?

17 MR. JIM BRADY: We will have to go

18 back to the foundation of that and study it

19 and take your comment and make sure of the

20 words we want to use for the specific

21 meaning.

22 MR. DAVID ARMSTRONG: Okay. Thank

23 you.

24 MR. JIM BRADY: Any additional

25 comments or questions? 1320 is the proposed
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1 version of the current 1306 dealing with

2 lightning.

3 MR. NICK BOGNER: Yes, I have a

4 question. Nick from BendixKing.

5 On Section (a)(1) and (a)(2) it

6 discusses the continues -- function

7 continues to perform during and after the

8 exposure and then in (a)(2) it talks about

9 recovering. Can you describe and clarify a

10 little bit what the intent is with respect

11 to what it means to continue to perform?

12 Kind of what is the -- I have some theories

13 of my own, but is there a degraded mode? Is

14 there some other level of perform once that

15 is normal?

16 MR. JIM BRADY: The intent in the

17 rule -- let me find the exact -- as stated

18 in (a)(1), the intent is that the airplane

19 system level, that that information

20 provided, must be available so the pilot can

21 use it in a timely manner so when it

22 continues to perform it can't, you know, be

23 lost --

24 MR. NICK BOGNER: Okay. So then on

25 (2) --
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1 MR. JIM BRADY: -- at the airplane

2 level.

3 MR. NICK BOGNER: At the airplane

4 level. And then when you discuss the

5 automatically recovering aspect of that, is

6 that recovering from what?

7 I guess it depends on what (a)(1)

8 allows as far as it maybe not at the system

9 level or if there is some subcategory. Does

10 that make sense? Does that question make

11 sense?

12 MR. JIM BRADY: Your question -- I

13 understand the foundation of your question

14 and I think that we will have to provide

15 additional guidance on that at a later date.

16 MR. NICK BOGNER: Because I can

17 imagine accuracy might be different or some

18 kind of degraded mode so what I took off of

19 is (a)(2), and I wanted to understand, if

20 there is some -- you know, some recovery

21 mode from what would be really helpful. And

22 the standards can cover a lot of that, but

23 just the fundamental of what the intent is

24 would be great.

25 MR. JIM BRADY: So you need better
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1 clarification on these two points?

2 MR. NICK BOGNER: The difference in

3 (1) and (2) and what number (2) would be

4 recovering from if there is some level of

5 degraded mode or something, that is being

6 recovered from, that would be acceptable by

7 (a)(1).

8 MR. JIM BRADY: Okay. And just to

9 restate what you are asking: On 1320 you

10 believe there is more clarification needed

11 on some of the details embedded in this

12 rule.

13 MR. NICK BOGNER: Correct. And I

14 will submit a couple better worded comments

15 formally.

16 MR. JIM BRADY: Thank you.

17 MR. GREG BOWLES: Jim, a slightly

18 higher level question -- Greg Bowles from

19 GAMA -- on 23.1320. It currently applies to

20 airplanes approved for IFR operations.

21 In light of some of the

22 interpretations that the FAA has taken

23 recently in some installations, perhaps IFR

24 operations is not the right discriminator

25 for aircraft that are likely to be exposed
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1 to lightning for this kind of system. And

2 perhaps the FAA could select a different

3 type of discriminator such as scale or size

4 or risk of the aircraft.

5 MR. JIM BRADY: And I believe a

6 similar comment was made on another rule

7 yesterday --

8 MR. GREG BOWLES: Correct, yes.

9 MR. JIM BRADY: -- so we will take

10 that comment and, you know, try to figure

11 out if there is a better term or which

12 direction we want to take. Thank you.

13 MR. DAVID ARMSTRONG: David

14 Armstrong for Garmin. We believe that the

15 wording in (a)(1) and (a)(2) is actually a

16 means of compliance. The rule should be

17 stepped back to a higher level, what the

18 rule should be worried about is

19 preventing -- that certain failure

20 conditions don't occur under the exposure to

21 lightning, whether it be hazardous,

22 catastrophic or major. If the system is not

23 essential and has minor consequences, there

24 is absolutely no reason why it should not

25 need to -- we realize the way that (a) is
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1 worded that it's -- the -- it says that it

2 should provide safe flight and landing, but

3 we have had the issues in the past with the

4 ACO and the interpretation of that.

5 Secondly, the system level

6 function, we have had issues with the

7 definition of what is the system. For

8 example, the system level function of a

9 private altitude indicator and a standby

10 analysis indicator, we would argue that they

11 are all the same function and that only one

12 of them needs to recover. Whereas we have

13 had interpretations in the past where the

14 ACO has said that they are both independent

15 systems and that they both must recover.

16 Thank you.

17 MR. JIM BRADY: Thank you. Any

18 additional comments?

19 1325 --

20 MR. PAT MULLEN: Again, Pat Mullen

21 from the Small Airplane Directorate.

22 Jim, on 1320 I am not really a

23 systems person so I notice that there has

24 been a lot of comments on (a)(1) and (a)(2).

25 Can you perhaps step through an example of a
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1 particular system on what your expectation

2 is? That would probably help me and the

3 rest of the folks in the audience who really

4 do not have a systems background. We would

5 like a scenario or something or a particular

6 reason of what --

7 MR. JIM BRADY: One of the proposed

8 changes in this rule and some of the words

9 that we used were addressing it to the

10 systems level. It is difficult at times to

11 draw a box around what is a system and what

12 is not. Do you have multiple systems? Do

13 you have one system?

14 The intent was to look at what is

15 the total way you get a prescribed piece of

16 information, let's say, attitude. And so

17 the system to provide attitude could be the

18 partial panel and the attitude indicator and

19 a standby indicator. All three of those are

20 the system that provide attitude. And as a

21 critical function, when exposed to

22 lightning, you still needed to have the

23 function of attitude, which means you could

24 degrade that system, hence, lose the standby

25 or the primary but not the total ability at
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1 the aircraft level to see or have -- not

2 have the information for attitude.

3 Is that -- that was the intent and

4 the question to the public is, does that

5 come across adequately? And as some

6 comments here today indicate, we need to

7 evaluate that and we would appreciate

8 additional written comments.

9 Ric?

10 MR. RIC PERI: Ric Peri with

11 Aircraft Electronics Association. I

12 appreciate the explanation. My area of

13 concern is that, as we know under Part 26,

14 the aircraft wiring is now a system, and the

15 confusion could be pretty dramatic when this

16 generation that rewrote the rule has retired

17 and we rely on the next generation to be

18 able to interpret it. So clarity here is

19 going to be exceptionally critical.

20 MR. JIM BRADY: Thank you. Any

21 additional comments?

22 MR. NICK BOGNER: Your example

23 really helped my question, so thank you.

24 MR. JIM BRADY: Thank you. Moving

25 on to the proposed 1325, which is a rewrite
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1 of the current 1308.

2 And I will let you read it instead

3 of reading it myself and ask for any

4 comments or questions.

5 This is very similar to 1320 and I

6 would assume some of the previous comments

7 would apply here if anybody would like to

8 verify that.

9 MR. DAVID ARMSTRONG: David

10 Armstrong with Garmin. Yes, absolutely the

11 comments that we provided against the

12 lightning rule would for the most part apply

13 here. We believe that the rule at the

14 moment proposes a means of compliance and

15 should be changed to address the prevention

16 of failure conditions as opposed to exactly

17 how you prevent that failure condition.

18 Thank you.

19 MR. JIM BRADY: Any additional

20 comments?

21 MR. GREG BOWLES: So to start with,

22 Jim -- Greg from GAMA -- we would also make

23 the same comments about the discriminator

24 for IFR, again, for evaluation.

25 The second question has to do with
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1 the new technology coming along of electric

2 propulsion, hybrid and electric propulsion.

3 Those aircraft have been shown to have

4 unique fields that may need special

5 attention, so it may be something to

6 consider as we rewrite this rule.

7 MR. JIM BRADY: Thank you.

8 MR. BERNIE NEWMAN: Bernie Newman,

9 Astronautics. While this rule is very

10 similar to the previous one, the previous

11 one applied it to IFR equipment. This one

12 here starts by (a)(1) and (a)(2) are

13 apparently applicable to VFR or IFR, only

14 the (b) is IFR. Was that intentional?

15 MR. JIM BRADY: That was

16 intentional based on the risk of the two

17 environmental phenomena. Any additional

18 comments?

19 1330. This took five current rules

20 and collapsed it into the one, and it's the

21 system power generation, storage, and

22 distribution. Any comments on that?

23 MR. GREG BOWLES: Jim, Greg Bowles

24 from GAMA. 23.1330 (c)(1) and (c)(2) --

25 (c)(1) specifically would require 30 minutes
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1 of power for the critical systems from

2 maximum altitude of 25,000 feet or less, so

3 basically any aircraft would have to have 30

4 minutes of backup power. There are

5 conceivably electric aircraft coming along

6 that would not fly higher than 10,000 feet.

7 Some may fly far lower. They would never be

8 able to run without propulsion for anywhere

9 near 30 minutes.

10 To allow those aircraft to get some

11 footing and still operate safely in the

12 environment over the next couple of years

13 until longer run times are possible, it

14 would be preferable to have a more

15 performance-based (c)(1) for those aircraft.

16 (C)(2), performance-based would be

17 preferable, however between 25,000 and up

18 higher, it's conceivable you could run in

19 traditional aircraft longer.

20 MR. JIM BRADY: So your comment, to

21 just clarify, is specifically at the

22 prescriptive 30 minutes?

23 MR. GREG BOWLES: Yeah, I think the

24 concern, exactly -- the concern is that

25 there are many aircraft that would not be
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1 able to glide from -- so electric aircraft,

2 for example, once it loses electric power,

3 would no longer be making thrusts so it

4 would be gliding, so it would not be capable

5 of flight for 30 minutes after the loss of

6 power; and, therefore, carrying an

7 additional 30 minutes of certification of

8 power that could not be used in typical

9 circumstances would be unnecessary.

10 MR. JIM BRADY: I understand. What

11 you're basically saying with potential new

12 technologies the 30 minutes may be longer

13 than --

14 MR. GREG BOWLES: The aircraft can

15 fly.

16 MR. JIM BRADY: -- the aircraft

17 could ever conceivably stay in the air after

18 certain failure mode?

19 MR. GREG BOWLES: Correct. Yes.

20 And so in those cases, just for the utility

21 of the aircraft, it would be nice not to

22 have to store unusable energy at that level.

23 MR. JIM BRADY: Thank you. I think

24 that we have a question here.

25 MR. PAT MULLEN: So, Greg, let me
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1 just -- so (c)(1) and (c)(2) are actually --

2 they are part of Amendment 62 when we

3 updated part 23 to account for jets. And in

4 this particular language, Jim and I had a

5 lot of conversations several years ago

6 during that rule because we struggled making

7 it performance-based. And so we just

8 picked -- you know, we just picked this and

9 that so I guess my comment, Greg, is if you

10 could offer suggestive performance-based

11 language in your comments, that would

12 probably -- because this is one that we kind

13 of struggled with going all the way back to

14 amendment (d)(2)?

15 MR. GREG BOWLES: Yes, I appreciate

16 that. And just to elaborate, my comments on

17 (c)(1) in the context of a traditional

18 powerplant, that would continue to run after

19 a power failure would make sense and will

20 probably continue to fly for a period of

21 time to make a safe landing.

22 But in aircraft coming along that

23 are purely electric, you are taking energy

24 up with you so once that energy is depleted,

25 the aircraft no longer flies and it becomes
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1 a glider. So once we reach a point where

2 the aircraft is no longer producing thrust,

3 having 30 minutes of critical systems is not

4 necessary because you will probably -- if

5 these aircraft were at 5,000 feet or

6 10,000-foot ceilings -- would probably be in

7 the air for ten minutes at the most.

8 MR. NICK BOGNER: So I was going to

9 comment on the same point and to touch on

10 what Greg said because, while he cited a

11 great example of this, I want to make a

12 philosophical comment, which was, we can

13 cite those examples, but if we had the

14 safety intent clearly stated a

15 requirement -- a standard, another content

16 for the airplanes of the future could vary

17 directly, you know -- and the FAA could very

18 explicitly accept or not accept certain

19 standards to apply to different types of

20 aircraft for appropriate use.

21 So it's the safety intent and,

22 hopefully, the language we can craft would

23 be something to the extent like other safety

24 intent drivers where you would -- you know,

25 adequate energy to power the system for, you
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1 know, appropriate amount of time -- and we

2 can find the words but that's -- there is

3 other places, you know, the prescriptive

4 piece again.

5 So instead of using a good example

6 about something like this, we should focus

7 on getting the language such that any

8 example, even that we can't think about,

9 could transcend time, but we can transcend

10 time with the language and accomplish the

11 same -- the same safety tests because there

12 is going to be an opportunity to accept the

13 standard of varying types in the future. So

14 I just want to make that top level

15 philosophical point because I think that

16 that is vital to getting all those parts

17 right.

18 MR. JIM BRADY: Thank you very

19 much. And as I stated when I started, you

20 know, that was our intent to try to remove

21 as much prescriptive design-based,

22 technology-based out of the rule as we

23 could. And we would welcome additional

24 proposed language in these areas.

25 MR. RANDY GRIFFITH: Randy
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1 Griffith, Mooney. I do know before the

2 60-minute requirement was put in, and ASA

3 has done it also, and you also might want

4 look at some past -- and also some issues

5 facing the FAA where they have actually

6 allowed demonstration if that time

7 requirement is necessary. So maybe put a

8 codicil in and we'll provide it as comments

9 that, unless you demonstrate otherwise,

10 something to that effect. But I know EASA

11 and -- and this is a position that the FAA

12 would allow that and that was mainly geared

13 around before the 60-minute requirement was

14 put in, and should a 60-minute requirement

15 be put in for certain aircraft, so...

16 MR. JIM BRADY: Thank you, I was

17 writing down a note on what you said.

18 Ric?

19 MR. RIC PERI: Ric Peri with AEA.

20 A couple of things: One is that it's pretty

21 clear that 1330 is about the traditional

22 aircraft electrical system. Clearly Greg's

23 point is that while we worked real hard

24 to -- and I say "we" because I was part of

25 the ARC -- worked real hard to address the
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1 ability to modernize new technology and

2 everything else, we spent 10 years on this.

3 Clearly we have a whole new propulsion

4 system that may not be adequately addressed.

5 Clearly this should be excluding propulsion

6 systems. Okay. This is about the

7 aircraft-based system, not the propulsion

8 system.

9 I don't know that we really

10 modernized the regulation to address that

11 technology. The other place that that seems

12 was in yesterday when we were talking at the

13 very beginning at the level of aircraft.

14 Where does UAS fit into this? Is it the

15 level 1 at O-1 passengers or, I mean, how

16 does that fit into it? But the reality is

17 that the vast majority of remotely piloted

18 vehicles or unmanned would be within part 23

19 and I am not sure that the regulation really

20 addresses that, so I would encourage the

21 agency to make sure that we are not ten

22 years behind the time as we move forward

23 here.

24 The other thing is that with (c)(1)

25 and (2) -- and I appreciate the logic that
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1 we have talked about. The maximum altitude

2 is a bit of a challenge because we have a

3 service ceiling and then we have a cruise

4 ceiling. And the intent here is really

5 talking about a cruise ceiling, not about a

6 service ceiling because it's about getting

7 down, right? And the service ceiling has

8 caused problems elsewhere, particularly in

9 the EASA and with Europe, where aircraft

10 that typically, you know, cruise well below

11 that are still being held to the 25,000-foot

12 mark kind of thing. So take a look at that

13 maximum altitude and actually have it

14 defined what it is you are talking about.

15 Is it the maximum cruise altitude or is it

16 literally the service ceiling?

17 MR. JIM BRADY: Thank you for that

18 comment.

19 Any additional questions or

20 comments?

21 The proposed 1335 covers external

22 and cockpit lighting. There were 11 former

23 rules or current rules that were collapsed

24 into this one.

25 Greg?
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1 MR. GREG BOWLES: Yeah, Jim, Greg

2 Bowles from GAMA. Comment on 23.1335(e),

3 first a general comment to 1335. I

4 appreciate that a lot of language and a lot

5 of detail has been well-consolidated in this

6 rule. We would recommend the removal of

7 1335(e), which is not an aircraft safety of

8 flight issue but is a maritime issue. In

9 the US this is something regulated by the

10 Coast Guard. It is a boat at rest in a

11 harbor. It is no longer an aircraft and,

12 therefore, it would be required in the US by

13 the Coast Guard to have an anchor light and

14 that is something that would be well under

15 the purview of the Coast Guard and not

16 something that the FAA needs to regulate.

17 It's not necessarily problematic, but it's

18 just unnecessary.

19 MR. JIM BRADY: Thank you. Any

20 additional comments?

21 1400. This was intended to capture

22 the safety intent of 1411 -- or the current

23 1411 and 1415 on safety equipment and

24 ditching equipment.

25 Any comments on this?
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1 1405; I am going to have Paul

2 Pellicano address this one.

3 MR. PAUL PELLICANO: Good morning.

4 Paul Pellicano. 1405 replaces 1419, flight

5 in icing conditions. It's only required for

6 airplanes that are seeking certification for

7 flight in icing. The paragraph (a)(1)

8 basically if you take the existing 1419

9 requirements and it's really consolidated

10 into one performance-based sentence and that

11 is that first sentence there. If you

12 remember yesterday, we talked about taking

13 the performance requirements that are

14 currently in 1419(a) and putting them into

15 Subpart (b). We are -- the current 1419(b)

16 we removed because, if you look at the

17 current 1419(b) it just lists means of

18 compliance. That is all it does. So it's

19 more appropriate for a means of compliance.

20 The current paragraph (c) requires

21 a means of detection for critical icing

22 regions. We decided that that was in

23 compliance too. And there is an example

24 where new technology is basically requiring

25 us to look at things differently. So, for
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1 example, on part 23 where we are looking

2 at -- in fact, today we are certifying

3 airplanes with primary ice detectors in

4 which the pilot is not even required to look

5 out the window to determine if he is

6 creating ice, that is how robust these

7 systems are.

8 But if you remember, he is still

9 required to look -- we are still required,

10 based on 230, to determine if he is outside

11 of the Appendix C conditions. And right now

12 there is no technology for that. We are

13 still relying on visual cues but that is

14 covered under 230, what we talked about

15 yesterday.

16 Also, too, the current icing

17 requirements for windshields in 775,

18 airspeed, and static pressure systems in

19 1323 and 1325 are now -- would be -- we

20 envision them being included in the means of

21 compliance for (a)(1).

22 And as far as the requirements for

23 the icing conditions for which the applicant

24 is seeking certification, so that would be

25 Appendix C and would also include, if an
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1 applicant is seeking to fly in large fog

2 conditions, which we talked about yesterday,

3 which we really are talking about freezing

4 drizzle and freezing rain, the applicant

5 would have to show that the airplane can fly

6 in those conditions only if the RCT can fly

7 in those conditions.

8 We also envision the means of

9 compliance to cover ice crystals for high

10 performance airplanes. So high performance,

11 by definition, would be airplanes over 250

12 knots, but we also envision that it would

13 also be high altitude. And I don't know if

14 you guys are familiar with having -- we are

15 having mostly on the transport side, but

16 flying in convective -- around convective

17 weather in the maritime environment where a

18 pilot does not see anything on his radar but

19 he is flying in ice crystals and these ice

20 crystals are causing some issues with pitot

21 probes. And when we get to the Subpart (d)

22 we will talk about what they are doing to

23 engines.

24 And, of course, (a)(2) is -- the

25 target of (a)(2) and the intent of (a)(2) is
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1 to cover certain modifications on existing

2 airplanes. And the requirement there is

3 when the autopilot is engaged that the

4 system provide lower speed of warning. And

5 the target there is older airplanes in which

6 stall warnings -- the airplane had a stall

7 warning system, but buffet was used as a

8 means of stall warning in icing conditions.

9 Paragraph (b) specifies that those

10 two are addressed in Appendix C. We had

11 some internal comments, what "demonstrate"

12 means. Demonstrate does not necessarily

13 apply to flight tests. It could be

14 analysis.

15 Let's see, and I think that that is

16 it.

17 Any comments or questions? Okay.

18 Thank you very much.

19 MR. DAVID ARMSTRONG: I have one.

20 David Armstrong from Garmin. The

21 clarification you made at the end is

22 important because the way that we have

23 always had the rules enforced to us that had

24 the word demonstration, the ACO almost

25 always insisted that that meant that you had
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1 to perform it on an airplane.

2 MR. PAUL PELLICANO: Yes. Yes.

3 And you probably know, we are doing that now

4 in some current airplanes through an issue

5 paper and we have a means for compliance

6 that does not necessarily involve flight

7 testing.

8 MR. DAVID ARMSTRONG: Okay. Thank

9 you.

10 MR. JIM BRADY: 1410 is on

11 pressurized systems, and it collapsed the

12 former or the current 1435, 1437 and 1438

13 into this one rule. Greg?

14 MR. GREG BOWLES: 23.1410 discusses

15 the term "burst" and "element" and those are

16 terms well used and well understood in the

17 industry. I don't believe they are defined

18 in the regulations. We do define

19 ultimate -- ultimate strength and limit

20 strength or ultimate load, limit load, but I

21 don't think we discuss burst and what was

22 the other term I used? Ultimate and burst.

23 Okay. Thank you.

24 MR. DAVID ARMSTRONG: David

25 Armstrong with Garmin. Our comment is we
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1 believe this rule is -- really does not

2 follow the whole intent of going to the

3 safety objective rule. It's very

4 prescriptive and really contains a means of

5 compliance where we think that it should be

6 simplified to what is the safety intent

7 behind the values that are chosen here.

8 MR. JIM BRADY: Thank you.

9 Any additional comments?

10 1457, the CVR rule is coming across

11 as is. Part of the reason is that this rule

12 is so intertwined with so many other parts

13 of the regulations that it was extremely

14 difficult to decouple it.

15 Any comments on this rule?

16 MR. NICK BOGNER: A general

17 comment, I started writing notes and then I

18 just stopped writing because there were so

19 many. So the prescriptive nature of it is

20 just completely missing, so I feel like we

21 are almost there with many of these

22 different sections and then this one goes

23 off the rails with respect to prescriptive

24 solution and specification.

25 You know, one of the ways that is
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1 bad is that it also seems very binary, so if

2 voice recording is required, then you got to

3 do it all this way, so it just has that

4 general statement at the top. And that,

5 again, feels wrong because there will be

6 different types of different levels, I would

7 say, of voice recording and then there will

8 also be different ways of voice recording.

9 Why do we need an orange or yellow box

10 somewhere? And the voice recorders of the

11 future might look very different and we

12 would be actually sacrificing integrity and

13 quality and recovery of that because we have

14 those other constraints that would, A, make

15 it more expensive and, (b), make it less

16 technology efficient and reliable because,

17 again, you can imagine all kinds of methods

18 that would be even better than this and it

19 would prevent us from using those methods,

20 so very, very prescriptive. And it seems --

21 you know, even channels and probes,

22 discussions like that, just seems very wrong

23 for that.

24 So, again, let's state the safety

25 intent, what are we trying to accomplish?
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1 And, again, this is a beautiful area where a

2 standard can say -- can pin down all the

3 aspects of that for different types of

4 intents and different types of applications

5 and technology, so there is two parts of it.

6 One is that the technology used is really

7 implied throughout this whole thing. And

8 the other is the types of recording, what

9 would you record? You know, we don't

10 necessarily want that in today's regulation.

11 It would be much better suited in the

12 standard so long as we have the safety

13 intent. And then the third would be there

14 is going to be different levels of that.

15 And I don't know if we want to try to

16 capture levels and, you know, it's a binary

17 thing, that the voice recording looks like

18 this or you don't have it.

19 It just does not feel like it's

20 solving our problem there. And the same

21 this is going to be true for the next

22 section but that is my general comment. So

23 a lot of words missing. And in fact, this

24 would be one of the longer sections in the

25 whole thing, so that should tell us
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1 something too. So really what is the safety

2 intent and how can we facilitate really,

3 really well implemented voice recorders of

4 the future?

5 MR. JIM BRADY: Thank you.

6 MR. GREG BOWLES: Greg Bowles with

7 GAMA. So our comment to the voice recorder,

8 and the flight data recorder section up

9 next, in taking into account the ICAO

10 requirements through Annex 6, or operational

11 requirements for flight recorders, it would

12 be appropriate for the FAA to have higher

13 level language here and reference standards

14 such as ED-155 or ED-112 which are standards

15 acceptable to ICAO that do detail this

16 material already and those are world

17 acceptance standards.

18 With respect to calling out the

19 numbering of this section 23.1457, which

20 does not fit well with the rest of the

21 structure that the FAA has created,

22 understanding that this rule is tied in

23 pretty extensively to operational rules to

24 the FAA's structure, as those operational

25 rules are evolved over time it would be
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1 appropriate to renumber this rule at some

2 time through a future rulemaking at a

3 minimum, if this can't be changed to match

4 now.

5 MR. JIM BRADY: Thank you.

6 Additional comments?

7 The next rule is 1459, the FDR. I

8 would assume the comments as stated

9 previously are very similar. Any additional

10 comments specifically on this rule.

11 And that covers Subpart F. And I

12 think -- do you want to call it, Ric?

13 Are there any comments or concerns

14 or statements on Subpart F? Thank you.

15 MR. LOWELL FOSTER: So before we

16 backtrack to (e), I think that what we will

17 do process-wise is I would like to revisit

18 23.5 and then we will take a break and then

19 come back and finish with Subpart (e). But

20 if you give me just a second, I want to set

21 up 23.5.

22 So I would like to revisit 23.5

23 because in discussions last night, we

24 realized that we are not necessarily

25 clear -- at least I did not feel like we
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1 were clear on the comments we got or at

2 least the focus.

3 There were -- there were two

4 comments, one towards simple and one towards

5 VFR. And as you know from reading the

6 preamble, when we did this, the idea was to

7 create simple to allow a little bit of

8 flexibility in propulsion. It's very

9 narrow, and we had some internal concerns

10 about doing it, and so in the AC -- or in

11 the NPRM, we actually asked the public for

12 their thoughts on the appropriateness of

13 simple. And so because we are asking that

14 question, we want to make sure we are clear

15 on that, so if you don't mind, those of you

16 who had comments yesterday, I would ask you,

17 maybe, to target them again so we can be

18 clear, is the focus on the simple category

19 or on the VFR or both?

20 MR. GREG BOWLES: Greg Bowles with

21 GAMA.

22 So 23.5(d) simple, the definition

23 of simple aircraft, I believe the term

24 simple appears twice in the code after this

25 point. One occurrence is the reference use
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1 made, it's aircraft that are type --

2 propulsion systems that are inherently type

3 certified except for simple -- and I can't

4 remember what the other one is. Does anyone

5 remember? Is it only one other occurrence?

6 It might only be one other occurrence.

7 So our comment is that we believe

8 that as the FAA has described in the past,

9 part 23 addresses a large range of aircraft.

10 Below part 23 we have the LSA system that is

11 in the FAA system and we also have the

12 primary category. And so those are simpler

13 types of aircraft for all intents, and part

14 23 is a beginning from those aircraft, at

15 that end we would tie in what we would call

16 a simple part 23 aircraft, but then a

17 slightly less simple type aircraft would

18 evolve and would require, under that

19 spectrum -- would be a relatively

20 high-performing flex aircraft within part

21 23.

22 We do not believe that it's

23 appropriate to define each of those aircraft

24 types. In fact, we believe that it's

25 impossible. We don't think that you can
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1 call out a framework of characteristics that

2 define them. For example, an aircraft could

3 still be simple if it had a 61 knot stall

4 speed but then had all these other

5 characteristics. It could be simple if it

6 was a Level 2 airplane with these

7 characteristics.

8 So these defining characteristics

9 are not a, quote, unquote, simple airplane.

10 It would be more appropriate to keep the

11 intent that simple design solutions are

12 treated with simple methods of compliance.

13 As performance gets more complex, we need to

14 do more and more things and I think the code

15 in general is written in that way. The one

16 exception is the idea of type certifying

17 propulsion, I believe. There might be one

18 other that I am forgetting, but is there --

19 do you --

20 MR. LOWELL FOSTER: That is the one

21 that I remember.

22 MR. GREG BOWLES: Engine and

23 propeller.

24 (Unidentified speaker. Inaudible

25 comment.)
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1 MR. GREG BOWLES: You are right.

2 So engineer propeller, I think, is the

3 unique simple aircraft categorization.

4 So in a minute I think that we will

5 talk propulsion and we will have a specific

6 comment to that portion of the rule. But to

7 maybe allude to what my comment is going to

8 be in that area, the definition of simple

9 will not be needed for what I think the

10 correction would be appropriate in the

11 propulsion section. So it would be better

12 to have a pure part 23 without breaking out

13 sets of characteristics and calling it a

14 type of aircraft and just have a range of

15 aircraft in part 23 that have design

16 characteristics that drive certain

17 requirements based on the characteristics

18 that are chosen and not grouping one

19 particular set and linking it directly to

20 something else.

21 We think if the FAA, if it needs

22 to, can still get there without this

23 definition. And we prefer that the FAA has

24 the flexibility in the future so that we can

25 do more than just what is called out here
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1 without having to go through that.

2 MR. LOWELL FOSTER: Okay. Thank

3 you. The -- as we stated in the preamble,

4 we had the concern that it might be somewhat

5 redundant and so these comments are very

6 helpful for us.

7 MR. DAVID ARMSTRONG: David

8 Armstrong from Garmin. I just want to echo

9 what Greg said. We believe that the simple

10 definition in the regulation is unnecessary.

11 It's nothing that we could not do in

12 establishing a case-by-case basis and it may

13 actually be prohibitive in the future.

14 MR. LOWELL FOSTER: Thank you.

15 MR. JIM BRADY: Lowell, before you

16 leave the -- can you page up one. So from

17 page 4 to page 3? Since we are on the

18 subject of having the discussion about, you

19 know, classes of airplanes and our risk

20 management, I just want to revisit

21 subparagraph (b), 23.5(b). This is one of

22 the more important rules in part -- in the

23 proposed part 23 and I just want to make

24 sure that you, as the public, have an

25 opportunity to -- if we are off target, we
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1 would like to know right now. If these

2 aren't the four appropriate levels of risk

3 to replace the current weight separations

4 and propulsion operations, that we would

5 really like to hear your feedback on that.

6 MR. GREG BOWLES: The comments on

7 23.5(b), the determination of risk is

8 inherently governmental function. And so

9 with respect to what the FAA has put forth

10 as far as a determination of risk, we are

11 supportive of that. Our concern would be

12 based on the clarity and understanding of

13 what those categories are. I think previous

14 iterations prior to NPRM, prior to the

15 rulemaking in the beginning were more

16 confusing in this concept and this version

17 is much more clear, so we would support the

18 FAA's direction.

19 MR. LOWELL FOSTER: Thank you. I

20 appreciate it.

21 MR. DAVID ARMSTRONG: David

22 Armstrong from Garmin. My only comment is

23 that the preamble should clarify what

24 exactly is meant by passengers. We just see

25 an opportunity down the line for it to be
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1 confused, does it or does it not include the

2 pilot? Does it include somebody sitting in

3 the right seat of a single pilot airplane?

4 What exactly is the passenger?

5 MR. LOWELL FOSTER: Thank you. I

6 think that that is a valid comment. I

7 appreciate that and hope that you will

8 follow up with a written comment to the

9 docket. Thanks, David.

10 MR. WELDON WAINRIGHT: This is

11 Weldon Wainright, Powerplant DER. It looks

12 like on the Caravan airplane it could be

13 Level 1, 2 or 3. You got up to, like, nine

14 passengers for that airplane, so when you

15 come back to simple airplane, plus the

16 airspeed limitations down to 250 calibrated

17 airspeed, there is an airplane that fits

18 into multiple categories on there. So by

19 simple you could have airplane one, two and

20 three and when you come back to this just

21 level one as far as the simple plane, that

22 is the example that I can think of where you

23 could have multiple new airplanes fit those

24 categories.

25 MR. LOWELL FOSTER: Thank you. We
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1 appreciate that.

2 MR. RIC PERI: I think history

3 plays a role here and I, actually -- I mean,

4 I, fundamentally, like this and I know that

5 we have a couple of airplanes out there

6 where we have some challenges. MU-2 comes

7 to mind and I want to know how this fits

8 into that as you evaluate things. But one

9 of the areas that we have run into

10 challenges with in particular is the Part

11 135 maintenance program where the

12 regulation -- you talk about airplanes

13 certificated with number of passengers and

14 to move it in and out of approved

15 maintenance programs. And the ability to

16 retrofit what was traditionally

17 137-passenger aircraft into cargo

18 configuration and now all of a sudden you

19 drop to a lower level.

20 So what I would encourage is is to

21 make sure that the language here is talking

22 about originally certificated or originally

23 type certificated because it's based on the

24 complexity of the aircraft, not necessarily

25 the use of the aircraft.
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1 So as the gentleman said, you take

2 a Caravan and reconfigure it for straight

3 cargo, it does not change the aircraft even

4 though it now has seating for one passenger.

5 So just make sure those are addressed going

6 forward.

7 MR. LOWELL FOSTER: So what I hear

8 is we need to a elaborate on all this in the

9 preamble of the final rule and make it clear

10 on the intent.

11 Okay. I appreciate everyone's

12 comments. Anyone else?

13 All right. Why don't we regroup at

14 9:30 and we will start with Subpart (e).

15 Thank you.

16 (Recess.)

17 MR. JIM BRADY: Thank you. One

18 thing I would like to bring up before we get

19 started on the powerplant presentation by

20 John Vanhoudt is we have had some concerns

21 within the rulemaking team and comments now

22 from the public regarding the -- a confusion

23 factor between the new and the old rules.

24 One of the things we are considering is

25 renumbering the rules starting at 2000. So,
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1 for instance, we would have 23.2000 would be

2 the current proposed 23.1 and we would just

3 step up by fives from that. That is one

4 thing that we are considering, and I would

5 like to ask you to provide any concerns or

6 comments you would have on that and we will

7 take that into consideration.

8 We have not made a determination,

9 obviously, but we would like to get your

10 feedback on that if we can.

11 MR. GREG BOWLES: So Greg Bowles

12 from GAMA, a comment on the numbering.

13 So from our perspective the thing

14 that is most important with the numbering of

15 the future amendment of part 23, because so

16 many rules are being consolidated into

17 individual rules, so a five to one

18 compression or so, it would be very

19 confusing if a new numbered rule matched an

20 old numbered rule when having discussions

21 because the nature of that rule would be

22 drastically different from one amendment to

23 the next.

24 To properly deal with that issue we

25 would look toward a new numbering system
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1 similar to what was proposed in the NPRM or

2 the description that you just gave of the

3 23.2000 beginning would potentially make a

4 nice clear departure so it is very clear

5 what people are talking about. So the big

6 issues that we think need to be addressed

7 are making sure we don't overlap, making

8 sure an old number rule does not share a new

9 numbered rule with different meaning and

10 international harmonization, so we would

11 like the rule numbering system to match

12 similarly so EASA uses CS23XXX numbering

13 system, we would like them to match whatever

14 agreement you can come to.

15 MR. JIM BRADY: Okay. Thank you.

16 Any other comments pro or con? I

17 will give you an opportunity later but think

18 about that and you can provide written

19 comments on that as well. We would

20 appreciate it. Thank you.

21 John?

22 MR. JOHN VANHOUDT: All right.

23 Good morning. I am John Vanhoudt, and I am

24 going to be presenting Subpart (e). Just so

25 you know, I don't know if you talked about
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1 it at all yesterday, but Jeff Pretz is over

2 there and he is actually going to be taking

3 over these rules. I was an intermediate, I

4 guess. But unfortunately for Jeff, he did

5 not show up in time to be part of the

6 rulemaking that we were doing before he came

7 up, so -- but he is going to get to take

8 over the mess. So if you need something,

9 you can talk to Jeff or I for comments, and

10 also Paul will be coming in the middle of

11 this for the icing. There is one icing rule

12 that he would be stepping up for.

13 Okay. So, in general, in general,

14 okay, in general, what you have probably

15 already seen is that the rules for Subpart

16 (e) we combined internally the rules because

17 there are so many that basically are the

18 same thing that we combined them; that was

19 the basis for the reduction and also Part 33

20 and 35, we saw a lot of overlap there when

21 we were reviewing, so we were able to reduce

22 the rules down to ten. I think that there

23 is ten.

24 And the only other comment, overall

25 comment, I would make is that we pulled out
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1 and created, I would say, I guess, 910, I

2 think it is, that talks about system or

3 safety assessments that we found peppered

4 throughout all the rules. We pulled them

5 out and made one general proposed regulation

6 for how you do a safety assessment. So I am

7 just going to put the rule up. I think that

8 you have read them all, and open them up for

9 comments.

10 The very first one being 900 where

11 we try to identify, in general, what a

12 powerplant was because as you all know,

13 powerplant -- we were trying to capture not

14 only today's power plants but future power

15 plants and so this is our first attempt to

16 do so.

17 So I see that Greg is already

18 ready. You only get two comments, so use

19 them wisely.

20 MR. GREG BOWLES: Thanks, John.

21 Greg Bowles from GAMA with a comment to

22 23.900(c). So currently the FAA has

23 indicated that except for simple airplanes

24 each power unit must be type certificated.

25 Today products such as engines,
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1 propellers and aircraft receive type

2 certification. When we have a propeller or

3 an engine, it's then integrated into the

4 type certification of the airplane. For a

5 number of reasons this proposal would allow

6 a simple airplane to do that job of type

7 certificating the engine as part of the

8 airplane so I would assume that it would

9 mean all the issues of that power unit were

10 taking care of through the Part 21 process

11 of the FAA at the time of airframe

12 certification and the production aspect

13 would be controlled by the airframe type

14 certificate holder. That makes a lot of

15 sense for simple engines or simple power

16 plants. The discriminator of simple

17 airplanes, I think, is the issue.

18 So the reason it makes sense to do

19 that is based on our opinion on the

20 simplicity of the power source. So if we

21 are talking a simple propulsion unit or an

22 electrical propulsion unit, those would

23 require a lot less rigor regarding that

24 additional certification process than, for

25 example, a turbine engine, so that
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1 discriminator would be more appropriate.

2 So, based on the complexity of the

3 propulsion type, the FAA should allow one to

4 type certify the propulsion source with the

5 airplane and should not be based on the

6 simple airplane. I understand the Genesys

7 of this was from what EASA has done with the

8 VLA category, but it makes a lot of sense

9 especially facing forward as we look at

10 electric power sources.

11 Electric motors is a relative -- it

12 is a relatively simple component, actually

13 the most difficult aspect of electrical

14 propulsion will already be airplane based.

15 They include the battery systems, the

16 control systems, the charging systems, those

17 are very complicated bits, but they are

18 already airplane based. So it would make a

19 lot of sense to allow simple units like the

20 multi-electric motor to also be certified

21 regardless of the complexity of the airplane

22 on which it is being put.

23 So our comment -- will be written

24 as well -- would be that 23.900(c) should

25 allow the FAA to determine, based on the
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1 complexity of the power source, whether or

2 not it should be independently type

3 certificated or type certificated with the

4 airplane.

5 MR. DAVID ARMSTRONG: David

6 Armstrong from Garmin. Our comment is with

7 respect to 900(b) and the question of what

8 exactly is a likely hazard. We have had

9 probably, we have had all different

10 discriminators in the past. We are not sure

11 what exactly a likely hazard means.

12 MR. JOHN VANHOUDT: So on that

13 particular one I would just say I don't know

14 how much -- I think that this occurred

15 throughout the rulemaking process, the

16 proposed rulemaking process. I know that we

17 struggled with that ourselves quite a bit

18 and I think that we are going to end up just

19 making a common statement across the board

20 for all of us. So if that appears somewhere

21 else, and I don't know if it does, likely, I

22 am sure that the comment will be

23 standardized for all.

24 MR. BILL BRODEGARD: Okay. Just

25 for clarification, this is the -- for (a) it
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1 says: Provides auxiliary power to the

2 airplane. Does that mean auxiliary power to

3 the bus or is it auxiliary power to any

4 portion of the airplane, for example, a

5 battery, you know, powering a peculiar

6 device or something like that? And then for

7 (c), is the aircraft power unit, is that

8 defined somewhere or does the aircraft power

9 unit refer to the items in (a).

10 MR. JOHN VANHOUDT: So two

11 questions there, I think. So the first one

12 auxiliary power is not particular to

13 electric bus, it's auxiliary powered. It

14 could be because your future propulsion unit

15 might be there, so we are trying to be very

16 generic in the wording, but in this area

17 it's particular to auxiliary power to the

18 aircraft, not the power bus.

19 MR. BILL BRODEGARD: Right. So an

20 individual battery, for example, that would

21 power one particular article, would fall --

22 this rule would fall into that it seems a

23 little bit -- okay. I can now make a

24 comment on that one.

25 MR. JOHN VANHOUDT: Okay. And then
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1 what was your second one again?

2 MR. BILL BRODEGARD: It says

3 aircraft power unit.

4 MR. JOHN VANHOUDT: Yes, I believe

5 we did define that if not in the definition

6 section then in the preamble, I believe.

7 MR. BILL BRODEGARD: All right.

8 Thank you.

9 MR. NICK BOGNER: I would like to

10 express my support for the definition of

11 terms like "likely." I think you're right

12 on in that if we define what is likely or

13 probable or some sort of general statement

14 that would explicitly map to deferral to

15 standards, so there is a concept that says

16 that you need to evaluate the chance of or

17 probability of in various forms that is

18 unified throughout all of our sections here

19 would be very helpful in that when you see

20 that word that means very specific thing and

21 it means different things for, say,

22 different aircraft.

23 So if we unify on that, that would

24 help the ambiguity because I like the

25 generic term, we like to see that so that
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1 you can, then, apply it to the appropriate

2 level in other standards or just standards

3 in general in other uses. So that would be

4 a very helpful thing because you do need a

5 somewhat less defined term that would get us

6 there that has that specific meaning and

7 would map to other definitions and different

8 definitions for different aircraft. But

9 there is a concept there that is really

10 important and we don't want to over define

11 that, but have a keyword there.

12 MR. JOHN VANHOUDT: Okay.

13 MR. RANDY GRIFFITH: Randy Griffith

14 with Mooney. And my comment rides along

15 with the earlier comment made. When I look

16 at (a) and (c) auxiliary power, I would

17 normally interpret that as like an APU

18 installation which Subpart A is normally

19 applied to. But then when I read (c),

20 depending on what your definition of

21 aircraft power unit is, it's APUs and TSOs,

22 depending on the category of airplane,

23 somebody can interpret that and say other

24 than APU it now must receive an engine TC,

25 and so I would be very careful -- I would
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1 actually rather than -- I get concerned with

2 definitions and preambles and stuff, because

3 over time, even preamble language says going

4 up to follow the preamble, do you follow the

5 preamble, I would actually write into the

6 regulation what exactly you mean by aircraft

7 power unit.

8 MR. JOHN VANHOUDT: Okay. Good

9 comment. And we did struggle with things

10 like that because we are talking about --

11 especially in powerplant, there is -- I

12 think that there is a broader range of what

13 is today and what is coming so it is a

14 little bit harder, and I know that the

15 language can get confusing, so, yes.

16 MR. RANDY GRIFFITH: And, again,

17 depending on somebody's background, how they

18 interpret it -- and like I said, when I

19 first read that, making the same comment,

20 what do you mean by power unit. But I would

21 think that a lot of things like that, and

22 passenger, see if we can get it into part

23 one, I mean, that is really what regulatory

24 definitions are supposed to be, so...

25 MR. JOHN VANHOUDT: Any other on
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1 900?

2 So 905 is the complement to 900 in

3 its basic form and that is what it's

4 supposed to be. Any comments on that one?

5 MR. GREG BOWLES: Greg Bowles from

6 GAMA. I would make the same comment that I

7 made to 23.900(c) towards 23.905(a) that the

8 FAA should be able to able to allow the type

9 certification of propeller or the fan based

10 on the complexity of that device on the

11 airplane, rather than based on some, quote,

12 unquote, simple airplane.

13 MR. JOHN VANHOUDT: Yeah, one

14 comment I would make, I believe -- and I

15 don't know for sure, but I believe that Part

16 33 is looking at possibly rewriting the

17 rules. I don't know. I don't know if that

18 is true or not, but the only reason I bring

19 that up is because in concert with what they

20 may be doing to catch up with technology,

21 these rules are trying to match what they

22 might be coming up with at some point, so...

23 MR. RIC PERI: Ric Peri with AEA,

24 kind of in support with what Greg is saying

25 here, though I appreciate what 33 is doing
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1 and I appreciate the rewrite of the same

2 certification criteria for powerplant and

3 for propellers, but I don't know what the

4 value-added is by limiting it only to type

5 certificated products. You know, we have

6 got kind of a new generation and a

7 forward-looking generation, if you will.

8 And the reality is that we may end up with

9 powerplant or propeller standards out there

10 and now all of a sudden we are limited and

11 we can't use the other production tools that

12 the agency has under 21.9. We are limited

13 to the type certificate. And while it may

14 have made sense in the '30s and '40s because

15 that was kind of the control, just because

16 we happen to have that does not mean we

17 should limit ourselves only to that option.

18 MR. JOHN VANHOUDT: Yeah, and we --

19 this is the perfect area to comment on

20 because we did struggle with how to apply

21 this so we thought that we will get our best

22 foot forward and then let you guys comment

23 on it. So comments on those particular two

24 would be of interest to us.

25 Okay. Any more comments on 905?
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1 910. This is my favorite because I

2 am a systems guy by nature. But 910 is

3 the -- the intent was to qualify a safety

4 assessment in power plants because, as Dave

5 can tell you, it's typically applied to

6 systems, but if you looked at the rules, the

7 current rules, the current regs, you can see

8 that it's peppered throughout the whole

9 thing. So we combined a general overall to

10 apply this to powerplant installations.

11 Any comments on 910? Not even from

12 Dave? Okay. Great. It must have made

13 perfect sense then.

14 Okay. 915 was the -- or an attempt

15 at combining various rules. And without

16 going too much into it, there is not a lot

17 left there to leave at high level. Any

18 comments on this particular one?

19 MR. GREG BOWLES: Greg Bowles from

20 GAMA, to comment on 23.915(b), in context of

21 new propulsion sources that may be

22 unmanageable by the pilot such as

23 distributed lift or distributed thrust

24 systems which would need automation make as

25 part of the control having a means for the
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1 pilot to deactivate the activation would be

2 problematic. So we would recommend finding

3 a better way to address the needs of systems

4 where you would want to do that so you are

5 able to do that without making it a

6 regulatory requirement that the pilot can

7 put the aircraft into an unsafe condition.

8 MR. JOHN VANHOUDT: Okay. Good

9 comment. Thank you.

10 Okay. Any other comments on this

11 one?

12 Okay. 920. We did a good job on

13 reducing this particular one, we thought.

14 And I think that it's very high level

15 performance-based. Any comments on 920?

16 Okay. 925. Again, just a

17 combination of multiple rules, very spread

18 out through the old regs into a high level

19 rule.

20 MR. GREG BOWLES: John, Greg Bowles

21 from GAMA. Comment on 23.925(a), when

22 looking at the language it was apparent that

23 there was not actually a requirement for

24 powerplant operation during normal

25 operations, so potentially 23.925(a) should
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1 address normal flight and negative

2 acceleration.

3 MR. JOHN VANHOUDT: Okay. Do you

4 want clarification on the emergency part?

5 MR. PAT MULLEN: Greg, I did not

6 quite understand your comment again.

7 MR. GREG BOWLES: Sorry, actually I

8 guess, based on the full reading of that

9 sentence, maybe it does not integrate well.

10 So the comment is actually that there is not

11 a requirement that the powerplant needs to

12 function properly in -- not in deceleration

13 mode but in normal flight mode. So we think

14 that the regulation that would say the

15 powerplant must operate during normal and

16 emergency operation within the airplane

17 operating limitations might be an

18 appropriate rule.

19 And then a follow-up rule saying

20 the powerplant must operate at any negative

21 acceleration that may occur or may be a more

22 accepted term, I don't know. If the word

23 negative is -- maybe it was hashed out very

24 well. So anyway, it's clear from the intent

25 here that the FAA is looking to make sure
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1 that during deceleration things are safe and

2 they work, but we have not found a rule that

3 says during normal propulsion use the same

4 is required.

5 MR. WELDON WAINWRIGHT: This is

6 Weldon Wainwright. I have a question on the

7 (c) portion of 23.925 where we are talking

8 about an independent power source. Right

9 now, of course, you restart, you got the

10 battery on board the airplane. Is this

11 requiring, like, an additional battery to

12 what we have had, you know, normal

13 operations on the airplane? This is back

14 into where -- it's like part of your

15 restarting like you say in flight shutdowns

16 on there, so am I reading that right? Do we

17 need to have a secondary battery or --

18 MR. JOHN VANHOUDT: Well, we are

19 certainly trying not to be prescriptive to a

20 second battery to say -- I mean, your

21 powerplant might be a battery in driving

22 your powerplant, so all that is intended is

23 is that if you lose your primary source of

24 propulsion you will have to have a backup.

25 MR. WELDON WAINRIGHT: So kind of
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1 driving it into the world of turboprops and

2 stuff where you can have kind like

3 windmilling, you know, types of assisted

4 starts on there. And so if it's to the

5 point where you would have to have a

6 separate battery on there, sometimes that

7 can be a real problem because there just

8 isn't a space and the airplane had like a

9 second battery in the airplane to do that,

10 so just a question there.

11 MR. JOHN VANHOUDT: Okay. Thank

12 you.

13 MR. DAVID ARMSTRONG: David

14 Armstrong from Garmin, just kind of

15 following up from his comment. He used the

16 word independent. Independent from what?

17 The electrical system? The engine? What

18 exactly is meant there? We can see that

19 being an area of confusion later.

20 MR. JOHN VANHOUDT: Okay. I think

21 that we -- yes, we got the point. I think

22 that we have enough to take that comment

23 back and look at it again.

24 Any more questions on 925 or

25 comments? Before I move on I want to
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1 capture one more note on this.

2 Okay. 930. There was a lot of

3 discussion on this particular one, so

4 knowing that you probably read it before you

5 got here, I will just leave it open for

6 comments now.

7 MR. GREG BOWLES: Greg Bowles from

8 GAMA. A comment in general to 23.930 and

9 some of the follow-up on language

10 discussions. So in the context of new types

11 of aircraft in addition to old types of, or

12 current types of aircraft, GAMA might like

13 to see the term fuel used where we are

14 talking about a flammable fluid that is

15 caused for generating energy for combustion

16 and the term energy used where we are using

17 a more generic type of energy. And so in

18 the context of fuel system, it would be

19 preferable to see some discussion about

20 energy transmission as well as fuel

21 transmission or just the higher level of

22 energy transmission if you don't want to go

23 forward separating the two.

24 MR. JOHN VANHOUDT: Okay. Thank

25 you.
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1 MR. WELDON WAINRIGHT: This is

2 Weldon Wainright. On number 4 on there

3 (a)(4): Provide a means to remove fuel from

4 the airplane. I am assuming that is just a

5 normal drain system and that we are not

6 requiring like a fuel jettison system on

7 there. Just a question.

8 MR. JOHN VANHOUDT: I really don't

9 know. I don't think that we were talking

10 about fuel jettison systems in particular.

11 But in particular that was working

12 well or we were trying to incorporate some

13 of the intent of the old rule there still

14 and leave room for the new technologies, so

15 wording that was a little difficult. But we

16 are not trying to go above and beyond what

17 is already currently required.

18 Any other comments on 930?

19 Okay. 935, another example of

20 combining multiple regs that were in the

21 current rules to something more overarching,

22 I guess.

23 Any comments here?

24 Okay. Here is where I turn it over

25 to Paul.
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1 MR. PAUL PELLICANO: This rule --

2 the intent of this rule is to -- when we

3 address engine induction icing or any

4 aircraft ice secretion that can potentially

5 be ingested into the engine and cause a

6 hazard is to do exactly what we are doing

7 today with the one exception is that, if an

8 airplane now we are providing the option to

9 seek flight into freezing drizzle and

10 freezing rain, part (a) would ask the

11 applicant or request the applicant to

12 address induction system icing protection

13 both from induction icing and also from a

14 shed hazard from the airplane. And part (b)

15 would also require that that engine be type

16 certificated to the latest Part 33

17 amendment, which was just the last amendment

18 in Part 33 that added large droplet

19 conditions requirements.

20 Now, it's very -- the rule now is

21 very high level. We took out all

22 prescriptives. And the way that we look at

23 that is part (a) addresses induction system

24 and airplane ice conditions that cause

25 shedding.
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1 Part (b) addresses the engine where

2 the engine type certificate is -- engine

3 certification basis is adequate, for

4 example, for ice shedding. And it also

5 addresses propeller ice secretion. So

6 (a) -- like we did today, (a) is required

7 regardless of whether you were seeking

8 flight in icing and (c) would only be

9 required for ice conditions for which

10 certification is requested.

11 There was a comment before about --

12 well, the word foreseeable, there was a

13 comment before about maybe that definition

14 should be in the rule. Right now the

15 preamble has examples and we envision that

16 also being defined in means of compliance.

17 The issue here is we -- you know,

18 we are covering various types of power

19 plants so, for example, foreseeable for

20 reciprocating engines would be any at

21 atmospheric conditions that would cause

22 carburetor failure.

23 So all those prescriptive

24 requirements that were in 1093(a), we

25 envision them all being moved to compliance
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1 and we would also now -- foreseeable would

2 be -- for a turbine engine would be ice

3 conditions for which the airplane is

4 certified. And we also now -- in this

5 compliance we would address ice crystals the

6 way that we are doing today.

7 I mentioned before we were having

8 issues with airplanes at very high altitude,

9 we are talking 40,000 feet and certainly

10 navigating thunderstorms and other hazardous

11 environments causing pitot probe issues and

12 it's also been causing on a fairly large

13 airplane engine core icing and causing

14 rollback.

15 On our part 23 jets it has been

16 blocking the inlet total temperature probes.

17 And how we are handling that currently is

18 through design, and we need compliance issue

19 papers and are handling that the same way,

20 so that is the intent.

21 And any comments or questions?

22 Okay. Thank you.

23 All right. Almost there. Okay.

24 Actually, I believe that this is the last

25 one. It is.
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1 So 1000 for the powerplant fire

2 protection. Again, an example of combining

3 previous rules into one. For the most part,

4 the powerplant combined within itself, I

5 just wanted to make that earlier comment.

6 Some of the others went outside and brought

7 in other rules that made sense. But for

8 this one in particular, in general, we

9 combined it within the rule. So we had a

10 lot of difficulty combining it any lower

11 than this.

12 Any comments on that particular

13 one?

14 MR. GREG BOWLES: Greg Bowles from

15 GAMA. The comment on 23.1000(a). So

16 certain technologies will not have -- so,

17 for example, electric propulsion, the motor

18 itself would probably be classified as the

19 powerplant. That is not the component of

20 concern with respect to fire. In that type

21 of system the battery would be, and so in

22 that type of system it would be appropriate

23 to put the battery in a designated fire

24 zone, but the motor itself, depending on the

25 design, would not necessarily be an item
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1 flammability concern. So, in general, the

2 section could be written in a higher, more

3 performance-based manner and we will submit

4 comments to that respect.

5 MR. JOHN VANHOUDT: Okay. Any

6 other comments?

7 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Well, on the

8 Level 3 and Level 4, this is on the (d)

9 section on 23.1000. We are talking Level

10 3/Level 4 where it's outside the pilot's

11 view. I think that you might want to go

12 down maybe to a Level 2. I am thinking like

13 maybe a Cirrus jet or something like that,

14 you got a real small single-engine jet so it

15 probably would apply to that one also.

16 MR. JOHN VANHOUDT: Okay. Thank

17 you.

18 MR. STEVE ROSENFELD: Steve

19 Rosenfeld for NATCA. Just to clarify the

20 question on 23.1000(b) where you are getting

21 into fireproof shield, I am assuming that

22 that is more or less taking the place of a

23 call for a firewall withstanding the 2000

24 degree heat limit made of steel. Am I

25 correct on that?
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1 MR. JOHN VANHOUDT: In general, we

2 are trying to keep the intent of the old

3 rule without putting prescriptive to the

4 values, so how do I answer that any

5 different than that? I don't think that I

6 can answer particularly to the temperature

7 limits.

8 MR. STEVE ROSENFELD: So specific

9 firewall, that is being shifted over to the

10 prescriptive standards.

11 MR. JOHN VANHOUDT: Method and

12 compliance standard, yes.

13 MR. STEVE ROSENFELD: Okay.

14 MR. JOHN VANHOUDT: That is it,

15 yeah.

16 MR. WELDON WAINRIGHT: Along with

17 Steve's question there, we have been

18 involved with fire blankets on the airplane;

19 that is where you have the wreck where it's

20 the adjacent structure. And there is

21 part -- it used to be Part 23.865 on there.

22 So, again, that would kind of be a take on

23 that, too. So if you have like a firewall

24 and then you have some kind of protection on

25 that to protect your structure in addition
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1 to that, so that maybe needs to be worded

2 into that regulation also. Thank you.

3 MR. JOHN VANHOUDT: Okay. Any

4 other comments? Okay. That was easy.

5 MR. BILL SCHINSTOCK: All right.

6 Thank you. That concludes the presentation

7 of each of the specific sections. I would

8 like to take the opportunity now to offer

9 you the opportunity, as the public, to

10 provide any other comments you may have at

11 this time.

12 MR. WELDON WAINRIGHT: This is

13 Weldon Wainright. One general comment on

14 the -- in the powerplant section on the

15 instrumentation for the engines, that is now

16 moved to 23, I think, the 10 reg and stuff

17 where it's rolled in all together with

18 flight instruments, powerplant instruments

19 and they are all together.

20 For years we have suffered with the

21 same thing where you got the powerplant

22 regs, like, all over the place. You have

23 the 1305, 1337, 1549 that covered what you

24 have to have in the airplane, plus like gage

25 markings, range markings and things like
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1 that. So it would be nice at some point in

2 time to corral those all together and I

3 think strip them out of the 23.10 and maybe

4 put them back over into the powerplant

5 section. Just a suggestion. Thank you.

6 MR. BILL SCHINSTOCK: Thank you.

7 MR. GREG BOWLES: I would say that

8 because the pilot is the end interface for

9 all of that information, one of the issues

10 of having, as you described, the inputs to

11 the pilot coming from all different

12 regulations has been the federated and

13 non-federated differences in the cockpits.

14 So because the pilot needs to process the

15 information, having the requirement for how

16 information is displayed to the pilot in one

17 place, but what information needs to be

18 given to that display or to that portrayal

19 of information coming from which part.

20 So powerplant should specify what

21 information needs to be given to the pilot,

22 the flight should specify what information,

23 so on and so forth. And that information

24 should all be provided to the pilot through

25 one clear rule so that it's a nice fair way
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1 for the pilot to interface with that. We

2 believe that that is the right way for that

3 to occur. Thank you.

4 MR. BILL SCHINSTOCK: Thank you.

5 MR. STEVE JOSEPH: Steve Joseph

6 with Genesys Aerosystems. Our comments on

7 part 23, Appendix A, we feel that this is

8 unnecessary and is not really consistent

9 with the approach taken to the new rules.

10 There is -- you know, this information is

11 already captured in an ASTM document

12 F3117-2015, so we just feel that appendix is

13 unnecessary.

14 MR. BILL SCHINSTOCK: Okay. And

15 Appendix A is the ICA's Instructions For

16 Continued Airworthiness. Thank you.

17 Any other comments? So seeing no

18 other comments, I would like to offer if

19 somebody has a closing comment or a closing

20 presentation, that we would entertain those

21 now.

22 MR. RIC PERI: This is Ric Peri

23 with AEA. Kudos for the actions that have

24 taken place both from the agency's

25 perspective. Headquarters and rulemaking
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1 perspective, I know that it has been a big

2 push for you, and also the industry who has

3 stepped up to this. The changes that are

4 taking place today in this rulemaking, most

5 of us will not see the results of it. It's

6 going to change some of the way those that

7 are in the tail end of their careers will

8 have to do things. The comfort level that

9 we have had for the last 30 years will be

10 challenged. I encourage the agency, the

11 employees, as well as the industry to

12 recognize the personal challenges that this

13 change is going to make and look at the next

14 generation and the following generations and

15 where this rule goes into the future, so

16 thank you.

17 MR. BILL SCHINSTOCK: Thank you,

18 Ric. You make some very good points.

19 MR. GREG BOWLES: Greg Bowles from

20 GAMA. So in closing I wanted to just

21 reemphasize the importance of the global

22 harmonization and making sure that some of

23 the rules that are not quite at the

24 objective level rule are worked in that

25 direction, and GAMA will submit global
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1 comments before the 14th of this month to

2 address those in more details.

3 I wanted to pass on one example of

4 how we think this future rulemaking project

5 will be extremely beneficial. So before the

6 rules are even on the books yet, we have

7 been working as a global community towards

8 developing what could be means of compliance

9 towards these rules that the FAA has been

10 drafting and other regulators have been

11 drafting.

12 We had a discussion about low fuel

13 quantity sensing in one of these groups in

14 the beginning of January. Over the last

15 year, the FAA has a group called the --

16 well, it's a part of their safety team, but

17 they participate in the GA Joint Steering

18 Committee, which analyzes accidents and so

19 we all are aware of the accident Pareto

20 chart that the FAA often looks at for our

21 category of aircraft which indicates a loss

22 of control as the leading cause of fatal

23 accidents and the one thing that we are all

24 working hard to prevent.

25 The third cause of fatal accidents
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1 on that chart historically has been systems

2 and component powerplant failure. Down the

3 chart to the seventh has been fuel

4 mismanagement. That is an accident where

5 the pilot is flying an aircraft and he flies

6 until he runs out of fuel and then can't

7 make an emergency landing so a true pilot

8 error accident.

9 When the FAA and NTSB reviewed

10 those accidents in the last year, they

11 realized that many of the accidents under

12 systems and component powerplant had been

13 miscoded and they were actually running out

14 of gas, running-out-of-fuel accidents versus

15 a problem with the powerplant.

16 As a result, the FAA on the 6th of

17 January, we put out a new chart that

18 indicated the third or fourth fatal cause of

19 accidents in this category of aircraft is

20 fuel exhaustion, running out of fuel in a

21 perfectly good airplane. On the very day

22 that happened, the standards group was

23 meeting and was able to vote into place a

24 new standard that would require low fuel

25 sensing on all future type certified
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1 aircraft and that decision was based on what

2 was felt to be the benefit and the perceived

3 cost of putting those kinds of systems in

4 new type certificated aircraft in the

5 future. And so as a result, this seemed to

6 be a really interesting confluence where the

7 data for safety comes out, the industry is

8 able to react. And I hope that that is a

9 sign of things to come under this new

10 rulemaking.

11 MR. BILL SCHINSTOCK: Thank you.

12 Anything else?

13 MR. PAT MULLEN: So before, I

14 guess, we close out this meeting I thought

15 that it would be appropriate to talk a

16 little bit about changed management of this

17 rule and to let you know some of the

18 activities the agency's taking on. For as

19 many staff as we have supporting the

20 development of the Notice of Proposed

21 Rulemaking and then ultimately the final

22 rule, there is another dedicated staff of

23 employees who are working to develop the

24 training, not only for FAA employees, but

25 also for our ODAs, our unit members, our
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1 DERs.

2 So I just wanted to make sure the

3 public and industry understood that we know

4 there is -- there is effort that has to be

5 put forward in moving this rule forward

6 after it's issued, making sure everyone is

7 up to speed on it and understands what all

8 the rules are. And that speaks for both our

9 own staff within the agency and your staff

10 within the industry.

11 We don't have anything additional

12 to say about changed management, but I have

13 my changed management specialist at the very

14 back of the room if anyone has any questions

15 about that.

16 MR. BILL SCHINSTOCK: So I guess I

17 would like to say that this rule is a -- is

18 a result of about a ten-year effort with

19 great participation and collaboration with

20 industry. And we would like to thank

21 industry for this collaborative effort on

22 the ARC and the preceding cert process

23 evaluation.

24 This rule addresses the part 23

25 aspects of those recommendations on how to
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1 improve general aviation. It is not the

2 total effort that is being accomplished to

3 improve general aviation, but it is a big

4 step in the part 23 rule changes, so I just

5 wanted to at least point out that the ARC

6 has many other recommendations that the FAA

7 is considering, but at this point what we

8 are addressing are the part 23 changes.

9 Thank you. And thank you for your

10 participation here. Your comments and

11 feedback will help us refine our final rule

12 where it's appropriate and provide the

13 clarification where it's needed. And I do

14 appreciate -- and I think the team -- I

15 speak for the team when I say that we all

16 appreciate the feedback that you have given

17 us today to help us come up with a better

18 product. Thank you.

19 That concludes the meeting.

20 (Meeting concluded at 10:27 a.m.)

21

22

23

24

25
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1 CERTIFICATE

2 COUNTY OF FULTON

3 STATE OF GEORGIA

4 I, Susan DeCarlo, Notary Public and

5 Certified Court Reporter, do hereby certify that

6 I reported in machine shorthand foregoing

7 proceedings on May 4, 2016, that the foregoing

8 pages, numbered from 1 to 91 inclusive, were

9 prepared under my personal supervision and

10 constitutes a true and correct record of the

11 proceedings.

12 This the 23rd of May 2016.

13

 ____________________________

14 Susan DeCarlo, Notary Public

 and Certified Court Reporter

15 Commission Expires 10-12-2016

 Certificate number 2125

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
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A

ability 18:17 25:25

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absolutely 23:24

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acceleration 72:2

72:21

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33:12

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acceptance 46:17

accepted 72:22

accident 87:19 88:4

88:8

accidents 18:4

87:18,23,25 88:10

88:11,14,19

accomplish 33:10

44:25

accomplished 91:2

account 31:3 46:9

accuracy 21:17

acknowledge 4:14

ACO 8:7,24 24:4,14

41:24

acting 3:21

actions 85:23

activation 71:1

activities 89:18

add 7:6 13:4

added 18:13 77:18

addition 75:11

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24:18 26:8,21

27:19 28:17 30:7

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address 10:25

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ADMINISTRAT...

1:1

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Aerosystems 8:5

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affiliation 10:24

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agency's 85:24

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air 6:7 30:17 32:7

aircraft 8:1,8,13

12:11 18:13 22:25

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28:3 29:3,5,10,15

29:19,25 30:1,14

30:16,21 31:22,25

32:2,5,20 34:15

34:22 35:13 36:9

37:7,11 48:23

49:1,9,13,14,16

49:17,20,23 50:2

51:3,14,15 55:17

55:24,25 56:3

61:1 64:7,8,18

65:3,22 66:8,21

67:6 71:7 75:11

75:12 77:4 87:21

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aircraft-based 35:7

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85:16

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allow 12:7 15:5

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66:19 70:5

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12:19,20 14:10

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asked 48:11

asking 22:9 48:13

aspect 21:5 61:12

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aspects 45:3 90:25

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assessment 60:6

70:4

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26:11

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81:21

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28:9

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attack 17:18,18

attempt 60:15

70:14

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25:18,20,23 26:2

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25:3

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64:12,13,17 66:16

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based 11:22 15:1

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22:2,13 26:22

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challenged 86:10

challenges 55:6,10

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change 11:21 56:3

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changes 17:9 25:8

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characteristics 50:1

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51:17

charging 62:16

chart 87:20 88:1,3

88:17

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circumstances 30:9

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cite 32:13

cited 32:10

clarification 22:1

22:10 41:21 63:25

72:4 91:13

clarify 20:9 29:21

53:23 81:19

clarifying 9:11

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clarity 26:18 53:12

classes 52:19

classified 80:18

clear 19:12 34:21

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closing 85:19,19

86:20

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cockpit 36:22

cockpits 84:13

code 48:24 50:14

codicil 34:8

collaboration 90:19

collaborative 90:21

collapsed 13:15

14:21 28:20 36:23

42:11

combination 71:17

combined 59:16,18

70:9 80:4,9

combining 70:15

76:20 80:2,10

combustion 75:15

come 26:5 47:19

54:15,20 58:14

89:9 91:17

comes 55:6 89:7

comfort 86:8

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59:10 67:13 68:22

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15:18 16:14 19:19

23:6,10 29:20

31:9 32:9,12

36:18 37:2,3

42:25 43:17 45:22

46:7 49:7 50:25

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54:8 57:12 59:24

59:25 60:21 62:23

63:6,22 64:24

66:14,15 67:9,19

68:6,14 69:19,22

70:20 71:9,21

72:6,10 74:15,22

75:8 78:11,13

80:5,15 83:13

85:19

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9:23 10:13 11:4

13:5 14:19 16:2

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docket 10:5,6,20,20

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inherently 49:2

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installation 18:5,8

66:18

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instance 57:1

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instrumentation

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instruments 14:21

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integrity 44:12

intended 12:11

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intermediate 59:3

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intertwined 43:12

introduce 3:14 4:8

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26:20,24 27:19,22

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30:10,16,23 31:4

33:18 34:16 36:17

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21:18 23:1 31:12

36:12 68:24 69:6

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kinds 44:17 89:3

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35:9 36:10 40:13

42:3 43:25 44:21

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machine 92:6

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markings 83:25,25

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match 47:3 58:11

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meeting 3:3,10 7:12

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29:9,22 30:5,7,12

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mismanagement

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missed 9:8

missing 43:20 45:23

Mitch 8:6,6

mode 17:19 20:13

21:18,21 22:5

30:18 72:13,13
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REGENCY-BRENTANO, INC.

modernize 35:1

modernized 35:10

modifications 41:1

moment 4:9 27:14

month 87:1

Mooney 8:11 34:1

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morning 5:3,19 7:4

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name 5:7 8:19

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page 52:16,17,17

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point 7:8 11:7 17:3

32:1,9 33:15

34:23 48:25 68:22

74:5,21 84:1 91:5

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points 22:1 86:18
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May 4, 2016

REGENCY-BRENTANO, INC.

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portion 51:6 64:4

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portions 12:16

portrayal 84:18

position 9:18,18

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regulators 87:10
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relatively 49:19

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reliable 44:16

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seats 3:5

second 3:3 12:14

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shutdowns 73:15

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sign 10:24 89:9

significantly 17:6

17:10

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49:16,17 50:3,5,9

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52:9 54:15,19,21

60:23 61:6,15,15

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space 74:8

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76:6 77:12,23

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transcend 33:9,9

transcribed 10:1,19

transcript 10:2,6
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transmission 75:20

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transport 40:15

treated 13:22,23

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trends 15:9,9,14,16

trouble 11:15

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turn 76:24

twice 48:24

two 12:12 16:13

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1330 28:19 34:21

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