UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 

+ + + + + 

DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION 

FEDERAL AVIATION ADMINISTRATION 

1 

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'$_:;..• ~-: ~- "- c-) 

In The Matter of: 

SKYDIVE MIDWEST, INC., 

Respondent, 

v. 

FEDERAL AVIATION 

ADMINISTRATION, 

Agency. 

FAA NO. CP08GL0005 

(Civil Penalty case) 

DMS FAA-2008-0778 

Thursday, 

November 20, 2008 

Chicago, Illinois 

The above-entitled matter came on for 

hearing pursuant to notice at the hour of 9:30 

o'clock a.m. 

BEFORE: Richard C. Goodwin 

Administrative Law Judge 

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APPEARANCES: 

On Behalf of the Agency: 

MR. GLENN L. BROWN 

FAA Eegional Counsel 

2300 East Devon Avenue 

Des Plaines, Illinois 60018-4696 

(847) 294-7313 Fax: (847) 294-7498 

On Behalf of the Respondent: 

MR. RICHARD E. STECK 

19 South LaSalle Street 

Suite #602 

Chicago, Illinois 60603 

(312) 236-4200 Fax: (312) 896-5927 

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1 P R 0 C E E D I N G S 

2 ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: The 

3 Federal Aviation Administration against 

4 Skydive Midwest, Inc. 

5 Counsel you' 11 identify yourself 

6 for the record please. 

7 MR. BROWN: Glenn L. Brown Office 

8 of Regional Counsel Federal Aviation 

9 Administration Des Plaines, Illinois. 

10 MR. STECK: Richard E. Steck for 

11 the Respondent Chicago, Illinois. 

12 ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: That' s 

13 Stack S-T-A-C-K? 

14 MR. STECK: S-T-E-C-K. 

15 ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: Are you 

16 okay? 

17 COURT REPORTER: Yes. 

18 ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 

19 Counsel. Ready to proceed or I was just on 

20 the phone with my, Mr. Liebowitz, we're ready 

21 to proceed or is there a settlement or? 

22 MR. BROWN: There is a settlement. 

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1 I have one allegation I need to withdraw from 

2 the complaint. 

3 ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 

4 MR. BROWN: Respondent is going to 

5 put some information on the record that we 

6 have a settlement. 

7 ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 

8 MR. BROWN: All right. With regard 

9 to that as to the complaint the administrator 

10 is withdrawing the allegation that Skydive 

11 Midwest is the owner of this aircraft and we 

12 were accepting the other allegations. 

13 I don't know with regard to the 

14 settlement did you want to make any other 

15 changes, Mr. Steck? 

16 MR. STECK: The, there was some 

17 confusion about various entities that were 

18 involved in the flight operations here. 

19 When I filed the answer to the 

20 complaint I filed an admission that the 

21 flights in question were operated by this 

22 entity. I believe we should have denied that. 

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1 ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 

2 Well, if, but the allegation in the complaint 

3 is that Skydive owned the aircraft? 

4 MR. STECK: No, there are two, the 

5 allegation that they owned it and that they, 

6 yes is that they owned it is also an 

7 allegation that they had a relationship with 

8 Skydive Midwest aviation to provide aircraft 

9 and pilot services which actually I think is 

10 right, isn't it? 

11 MR. BROWN: No. 

12 MR. STECK: Okay. Well, for what, 

13 whatever it's worth we have a settlement on 

14 the case. I just wish to withdraw allegation 

15 number two for the record and then we have a 

16 settlement with regard to the other elements 

17 subject to some information being on the 

18 record. 

19 ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 

20 So, Mr. Steck, does your client object to the 

21 withdrawal of allegation number two? 

22 MR. STECK: No. 

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1 ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: I didn't 

2 think she would. All right. 

3 Which leaves just allegation 

4 number one? 

5 MR. BROWN: Well, allegation, yeah 

6 one and then three through the rest of them. 

7 ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 

8 And what else did you then want to put on the 

9 record? 

10 MR. STECK: Well, I want to, one 

11 thing that I already put on the record was 

12 that we should deny operational control. 

13 ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: Right. 

14 MR. STECK: But --

15 ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: But 

16 you've --

17 MR. STECK: -- secondly --

18 ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: Let me 

19 ask you this. Just, and I understand where 

20 you're trying to go. 

21 If he withdraws allegation number 

22 two does that moot the issue as to whether or 

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1 not you should have denied it --

2 MR. STECK: No. 

3 ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: 

4 denied that allegation? 

5 MR. STECK: No. Well, we, we did 

6 deny that one I believe. 

7 ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 

8 But, Mr. Brown, do you have any objection to 

9 him changing his answer to deny the allegation 

10 with respect --

11 MR. BROWN: It, I'm sorry. 

12 ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: That's 

13 okay. Do you have any objection to Respondent 

14 changing the answer so that they deny the 

15 allegation that --

16 MR. STECK: Number three. 

17 ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: Number 

18 three rather than admit to --

19 MR. BROWN: In light of the 

20 settlement no, your Honor. 

21 ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 

22 So let the record reflect that the 

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1 Respondent's answer has been changed so that 

2 the substance of allegation number three is 

3 reflected to be shown as denied. 

4 Is that? 

5 MR. STECK: That's correct. 

6 ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 

7 Now having withdrawn allegation number two, 

8 denied allegation number three --

9 MR. STECK: The other thing that we 

10 wish to put on the record --

11 ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: Sure. 

12 MR. STECK: -- is that my client, 

13 Skydive Midwest, Inc. is no longer in 

14 business. They have sold the assets of the 

15 company to another entity and are no longer 

16 operating or not operating, look at any sort 

17 of Skydive facility in any manner. 

18 ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: Was it a 

19 corporation? 

20 MR. STECK: It's a corporation. It 

21 has not been formally dissolved from my 

22 understanding but they have ceased all 

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1 operations and all the assets have been sold. 

2 ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: Is that 

3 your understanding, Mr. Brown? 

-· 

4 MR. BROWN: Yes, your Honor. 

5 ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: So I'm 

6 showing that Skydive Midwest is out of 

7 business, no longer in business, has sold all 

8 of its assets and has ceased operation even 

9 though the legal entity as we lawyers 

10 understand it being said but that's another 

11 issue. 

12 MR. STECK: That is correct. 

13 ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 

14 Next step. 

15 MR. BROWN: And that with regard to 

16 that the, we have agreed to settle the case 

17 for $1000. 

18 MR. STECK: That's correct. 

19 ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: And 

20 that's correct, Mr. Steck, that --

21 MR. STECK: That's correct. 

22 ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: That the 

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1 entity, now is the entity in question Skydive 

2 Midwest that's the one who is going to pay the 

3 $1000? 

4 MR. STECK: Yes. 

5 ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 

6 So Skydive Midwest will pay a civil penalty of 

7 a $1000? 

8 MR. STECK: That's correct. 

9 ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: Now 

10 mechanically it doesn't make any difference to 

11 me do you want me to issue an order on that or 

12 do you two want to enter into, a settlement 

13 agreement and then either you can withdraw 

14 your answer or you can withdraw the complaint 

15 and I'll just dismiss the case but I'll leave 

16 that to you two --

17 MR. STECK: It doesn't matter --

18 MR. BROWN: Why don't we just do it 

19 this way. You want the, you need the 30 days 

20 to pay that or? 

21 MR. STECK: Yeah. That's fine. 

22 MR. BROWN: Okay. We'll take the 

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1 order, your Honor, that would be our 

2 preference. 

3 ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 

4 So you want the order to reflect that, I need 

5 to put my glasses on and -- I'm at that stage 

6 in life I have to put my glasses on to find my 

7 glasses. 

8 MR. BROWN: Yes, I definitely 

9 resemble that remark. 

10 ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 

11 What I'll try to do is a simple order 

12 reflecting that the case has been settled and 

13 the Respondent agrees to pay a civil penalty 

14 fine in the amount of $1000 by, pick a date, 

15 Mr. Steck. 

16 MR. STECK: What's the date, the 

17 20th? 

18 MR. BROWN: The 20th. 

19 MR. STECK: December 20th. 

20 MR. BROWN: December 20th. 

21 ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: December 

22 20th. And send him the check. The reason I 

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1 say that is I had a Respondent send me the 

2 check made out to me. And it took your 

3 counter part, it ended up four weeks to figure 

4 out what to do with it. 

5 MR. BROWN: I, I'm surprised they 

6 figured it out that fast. 

7 ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: Yeah, 

8 well let me tell me I didn't want anything to 

9 do with it. 

10 So what I will ask you to do, Mr. 

11 Steck, is send the check to Mr. Brown or 

12 whoever he identifies. 

13 Mr. Brown, when you get the check 

14 

15 MR. BROWN: How do we --

16 ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: -- once 

17 you get the check 

18 MR. STECK: I can send him the 

19 instructions for how to do it. It actually 

20 goes to Oak City. You can actually put in 

21 online with a credit card if he wants, send 

22 you instructions. 

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1 MR. BROWN: Okay. 

2 ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: But why 

3 don't I do this. Let me issue an order that 

4 the case has been settled and that the 

5 Respondent will pay $1000 on or before 

6 December 20. 

7 MR. STECK: Right. 

8 ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: Once 

9 you, Mr. Brown, know that the check has been 

10 received let me know and I will dismiss the 

11 case on the basis that it's been settled. 

12 MR. BROWN: Fine, that's fine. 

13 MR. STECK: That's good. 

14 ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: Gives 

15 Mr. Liebowitz something to do. 

16 MR. BROWN: Sure. 

17 ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: And 

18 again I understand the holidays are coming up. 

19 If you run into a problem, Mr. Steck, call Mr. 

20 Brown and if you two need to slip that date, 

21 Mr. Brown just send me an order and I'll sign 

22 it. 

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1 MR. BROWN: I will do that. 

2 ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: And two 

3 things while I'm thinking about it, Mr. Brown, 

4 unrelated to this case. 

5 We discovered a glitch in the 

6 system. Somebody, one of your counterparts 

7 had filed a suit three years ago. · It just 

8 showed up in our office a month ago. 

9 If you send a case and you know 

10 it' s coming to us and you don' t hear Judge 

11 Bacon and I as you've probably discovered 

12 when, when we get the case assigned to us we 

13 pretty much generate a procedure or we both 

14 tend to settle them quickly. 

15 If after some reasonable length of 

16 time you know a case has been forwarded to our 

17 office and you haven't heard anything --

18 MR. BROWN: Sure. 

19 ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: 

20 please feel free to call Mr. Liebowitz or me 

21 and we, what we'll do is we'll look down the 

22 system. 

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1 I don't know what the disconnect 

2 was. 

3 MR. BROWN: I've seen that happen 

4 on several occasions where we've had cases and 

5 actually just maybe that one. 

6 What happens is they kind of get 

7 lost in my process'but I'll, I'll, there's an 

8 appeal, it's filed and we don't hear anything 

9 more on it and the presumption is an 

10 inappropriate presumption is that, you know, 

11 it, that they withdrew it and didn't tell us 

12 and, and paid it. 

13 But there is a, there is a 

14 monumental disconnect in a number of, of 

15 situations where the docket doesn't follow up 

16 and frankly we don't, you know, I just don't 

17 get, and I will remind the staff --

18 ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, 

19 please feel, and, and let your colleagues, I 

20 saw, I saw Mr. -- and told him but feel free 

21 to call Mr. Liebowitz 

22 MR. BROWN: Yes, sir. 

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1 ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: 

2 because Judge Bacon and I both feel very 

3 strongly that the parties are entitled to due 

4 process and we try and get them sent in, you 

5 know, quickly and, and things happen. 

6 And we've also had some problems 

7 with DMS. They'll get stuff we don't get. We 

8 get stuff they don't get. 

9 When I discover it, you know, we, 

10 we try to take care of it. These are systemic 

11 problems to your government, Mr. Steck. 

12 MR. BROWN: One other, one other 

13 question, your Honor. 

14 ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. 

15 MR. BROWN: I, I got an order and I 

16 believe it was from Judge Bacon that there is 

17 an additional element now the DOT now has 

18 their own docket in addition to the FAA docket 

19 there's --

20 ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes, 

21 MR. BROWN: -- a DOT docket 

22 ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: 

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1 well, actually it's always been that way. 

2 You, the FAA has your, you have your own 

3 docketing system --

4 MR. BROWN: Okay. 

5 ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: -- it's 

6 the, as an example, 2005 something 

7 MR. BROWN: Yes. 

8 ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: and 

9 another number once it gets to DOT docketing. 

10 MR. BROWN: Okay. 

11 ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: It gets 

12 assigned another number. That's where in this 

13 case the, hold on a second, that's where the 

14 FAA 2008 

15 MR. BROWN: Okay. 

16 ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: -- 0778 

17 number came from. 

18 MR. BROWN: All right. 

19 ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: The CP 

20 number seems to come from your office. Now 

21 why we need three docketing numbers I don't 

22 even want to go. 

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1 MR. BROWN: Right. 

2 ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: But I 

3 agree with you. To me it's the height of 

4 absurdity that you have a number in your 

5 office, it gets another number at FAA docket 

6 and a third number when it gets to my office. 

7 Well, I'm not.in charge. 

8 MR. BROWN: Okay. Well, true 

9 neither am I. And with, well, it's not that 

10 dramatically different. The NTSB although the 

11 FAA would have a docket and then it keeps that 

12 docket number until the initial decision. It 

13 only picks up the third number if it's 

14 appealed. 

15 But yes I, that is a problem. I 

16 understand that there's, there was at some 

17 point in time some effort to try and move it 

18 but the docket wanted their own numbers rather 

19 than using the, you know, the other numbering 

20 system --

21 ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: I don't 

22 have a problem with the number that comes up 

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1 from your office. I don't know why my 

2 department insists upon assigning a new 

3 number. 

4 MR. BROWN: Okay. But I will pass 

5 that 

6 along 

7 ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: --when 

8 I take over we'll get it all straightened out. 

9 MR. BROWN: Okay. 

10 ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: I was 

11 too busy running the last election. 

12 MR. BROWN: I understand. 

13 ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: And the 

14 other thing is I don't know what you all can 

15 file but I think once you go through your 

16 pleadings make sure that there's no personal 

17 information in anything that you file. 

18 I've taken the position that any 

19 personal information from either party should 

20 not be filed. 

21 The reason is, Mr. Steck, 

22 everything that you file goes on the Internet. 

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1 And if your Respondent has something, her home 

2 address, her home phone number I've instructed 

3 everybody to redact that. 

4 I don't think in this day and age 

5 any of that information especially true in the 

6 FAA and inspectors but it's also true for 

7 Respondents. 

8 So I invite you any time you file 

9 a pleading with me redact any personal 

10 information including home phone numbers, home 

11 addresses, any identifiable information. Have 

12 people put their business address and post 

13 office. 

14 Hell to get hung up on this, that 

15 stuff and I just think we ought to keep it out 

16 of the record. 

17 MR. BROWN: Let me ask you, you 

18 know, along those lines how are we handling 

19 our, I mean how does your docket handle the 

20 situation where you have for example in a 

21 civil penalty case you've got somebody who is 

22 presenting ability to pay information and in 

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1 many cases you've got some very detailed and 

2 very personal information on that and that's -

3 

4 ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: I , I 

5 seal it. 

6 MR. BROWN: Oh, you seal it. 

7 ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: I will . 

8 seal it. 

9 MR. BROWN: Oh, okay. That's fine. 

10 ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: And, you 

11 know, and again in Mr. Steck's case if they 

12 did. I invite you take a look at, I did, I 

13 forget how the case was captioned. I did one, 

14 I didn't want anyone to get this excited about 

15 it. 

16 I did a case called Alaska 

17 Airlines et al versus Los Angeles World 

18 Airports about a year and a half ago Docket 

19 No. OST-2007-27331. It was, it was an airport 

20 rape case involving Los Angeles Airport and 

21 name and airline. 

22 And there was a lot of things in 

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1 that case everything from security issues to 

2 financial stuff. We took testimony on, what 

3 other airports airlines were looking at going 

4 into --

5 MR. BROWN: Okay. 

6 ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: And I 'm, 

7 what would happen is I'd stop the hearing. 

8 We're go off the record. Come back on the 

9 record in a closed session, take testimony and 

10 take evidence, close the record, go off the 

11 record, come back on the record in an open 

12 session. 

13 And it had 11,000 pages of 

14 exhibits, 3000 pages of testimony and there 

15 are whole blocks of it that don't show up. I 

16 mean that's an extreme example but if she 

17 filed a financial statement and neither one of 

18 you requested it be sealed I'd seal it, put it 

19 in a manila envelop and what I did in the LAX 

20 case is it could only be opened by counsel, by 

21 representatives of counsel or by order of 

22 myself or OGC or a court officer. 

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1 MR. BROWN: Well, thank you. I 

2 will pass that along. 

3 ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: Because 

4 everybody has proprietary information. And my 

5 position is that it didn't belong in the 

6 public record. 

7 MR. BROWN: Okay. 

8 ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: And I 

9 think Judge Bacon feels the same or he and I 

10 have lunch together whenever I'm in D.C. which 

11 I try to be as little as possible. 

12 MR. BROWN: All right. Thank you. 

13 ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 

14 And you see in my pleadings if, Mr. Steck, the 

15 reason I put in my orders that be careful 

16 about what you mail us. It's usual that if, 

17 if you mail something to my office it takes 

18 three weeks to get there. 

19 I don't know whose redoing the FAA 

20 regs. I've encouraged them to modify the regs 

21 to allow faxes and e-mails. 

22 What happens is all the mail goes 

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1 through the Brentwood processing center and 

2 all mail to all federal agencies is irradiated 

3 so that very expensive stationary that you 

4 have, Mr. Steck, that has the nice, gets 

5 fried. 

6 And I can tell you that when I, 

7 when I read your two page letter I have to 

8 peel the first page off the second page. 

9 And Judge Coco, who is now 

10 deceased, told me that when they go from 

11 orange to the next level 

12 MR. STECK: Uh-huh and that's 

13 ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: 

14 stuff just doesn't come. 

15 And so we've started doing 

16 everything by fax, by e-mail as long as the 

17 parties agree I don't care. But it's, it's a 

18 reflection of the state that we live in. It's 

19 not going to get better. 

20 And, you know, the problem, Mr. 

21 Steck, is, is the FAA and DOT haven't gotten 

22 to the point that I'm sure the civil courts 

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1 that you practice in are. 

2 My own court everything is done 

3 electronically. 

4 MR. STECK: Cook County has such a 

5 unique system that it's taking them forever 

6 to, to get to that point. But the federal 

7 courts have. 

8 ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: Yeah the 

9 federal courts I think are a model and so my 

10 practice in Maryland in some of the circuit 

11 courts there have done a wonderful job. 

12 And I'm trying to remember whether 

13 it was Balder City or Balder County that has 

14 done that. Other agencies have, this new 

15 docketing system is an attempt to deal with 

16 the problem is that the regulations which is 

17 regulations.gov which is where you go to look 

18 is set up for regulatory work. It's not set 

19 up for docket. 

20 MR. STECK: Right. 

21 ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: So. 

22 Anyway I commend the two of you on settling 

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the case_ You know that I have a reputation 

for lambasting people who call me at the last 

minute but Chicago is the exception- I love 

coming to Chicago_ 

MR. STECK: Okay. 

ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: But I 

understand too that, I've done litigation for 

20 years and many times you don't settle the 

case until, you know, the day of the case and, 

and my concern was that when I first started 

it was apparent to me people weren't picking 

up the files. 

I know now that they're going to, 

the files goes, Judge Bacon and I put the word 

out. 

And I commend the two of you for 

settling the case. After 20 years of practice 

I always felt that settlement was much better 

than a, than an opportunity to stand up and 

show off my skills. 

So anything else we have, Mr. 

Brown and Mr. Steck? 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
27 

1 MR. STECK: Nothing from, no. 

2 ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. I 

3 will try to get an order out. It may not go 

4 out until Tuesday. I, I don't have a printer 

5 with me. I'll put something together and I'll 

6 fax it to your office so that you've got it. 

7 And as I said if you need to 

8 change it because of the holidays submit an 

9 order. 

10 The other thing, Mr. Brown, in the 

11 future in any of my cases if you have an 

12 accommodation or an agreement or a procedural 

13 issue or a stipulation or anything else --

14 MR. BROWN: Right. 

15 ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: -- send 

16 me an order --

17 MR. BROWN: Draft order? 

18 ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: I 

19 mean that's how I used to practice law, you 

20 know, I started, I filed motions with an 

21 order. I'm sure you see a lot of that, Mr. 

22 Steck. 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISlAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
28 

1 It seems, there seems to be a fear 

2 in the work that I do to submit an order and 

3 I don't get upset with that. 

4 MR. BROWN: It is something that 

5 and I, and I had a life before I started 

6 working for the FAA in that world yes I did. 

7 Everything, you didn't file an order, you 

8 know, you had to file, you know, a motion. 

9 But I, I think with regard to 

10 there were in, you know, I practice in six or 

11 seven forms as I'm sure you do and you have 

12 some that are, you know, how, how are you so 

13 presumptuous as to believe that I'm going to 

14 grant that order, you know, why are you 

15 sending me this motion, you know, this draft 

16 order you smart aleck. 

17 So as a result you kind of stop 

18 doing it in all the forms. We do have some 

19 judges now that are in some of the forms that 

20 are requesting the draft orders. 

21 Frankly though I've never seen one 

22 of them use one of the draft orders. But, but 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005·3701 www.nealrgross.com 
29 

1 no problem. We can, I'll pass that along as 

2 well. 

3 ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: Yeah, 

4 and to all of your colleagues and if I don't 

5 like it I'll, you know, litigate it. I just, 

6 I do not have this, I've been doing this for 

7 probably not as long as Mr. Steck he looks 

8 like he's got more lines than I do. 

9 How many years have you been 

10 practicing? 

11 MR. STECK: This is 45. 

12 ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: I'm 

13 pushing close to, I'm about there. So I 

14 don't, I don't get hung up on this stuff. I 

15 mean you got something you agree to and, and 

16 don't put draft on it. 

17 MR. BROWN: Right. 

18 ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: I mean 

19 send it to me and if I like I'm serious I'll 

20 sign it. 

21 MR. BROWN: Right. That's fine. I 

22 will pass that along. 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234·4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005·3701 www.nea!rgross.com 
30 

1 ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: Yeah, 

2 okay. Gentlemen, thank you very much. 

3 MR. BROWN: Thank you. 

4 ADMIN. LAW JUDGE GOODWIN: Have a 

5 good day and have a good holiday. 

6 MR. BROWN: All right. Thank you 

7 sir. 

8 (Whereupon, the hearing was 

9 concluded at 9:51 a.m.) 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234·4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
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Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc_ 

202-234-4433 

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202-234-4433 

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202-234·4433 

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10:11,12,1911:4 201:15 13:6 26:8,17 12:8 17:22 21:14 20th 11:17,18,19,20 wanted 18:18 11:22 

wants 12:21 200517:6 

way 10:1917:1 20081:15 17:14 weeks 12:3 23:18 23002:10 weren't26:11 236-4200 2:22 we'lll0:22 14:21,21 294-7313 2:12 19:8 294-7498 2:12 we're 3:20 22:8 

we've 15:4 16:6 3 

24:15 3010:19 

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

202-234-4433 

""'~=""-•= ·-~ ·-- ~-'·'" 
35 

CERTIFICATE 

This is to certify that the foregoing transcript 

in the matter of: Skydive Midwest, Inc. V. FAA 

Before: 

Date: 

Place: 

Department of Transportation 

Federal Aviation Administration 

November 20, 2008 

Chicago, Illinois 

represents the full and complete proceedings of the 

aforementioned matter, as reported and reduced to 

typewriting. 

(202) 234-4433 

Ron LeGrand 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com