1 Note: The output shown below is from the Communication Access Realtime Translation (CART) system used in the meeting and is unedited, with two exceptions: the spelling of “Mr. Altrom” was corrected to ”Mr. Altom”, and “ADAG” was corrected to “ADAAG”. The CART system was used to provide an accommodation to persons with hearing loss and persons who are deaf, and was streamed in real-time and available to the public on the internet during the meeting.

1 2 3 4 5 x--------------------------------------------x 6 : RAIL VEHICLES ACCESS ADVISORY COMMITTEE : 7 : MEETING #1 : 8 : WEDNESDAY, NOVEMBER 13, 2013 : 9 X--------------------------------------------X 10 11 12 MEETING #1 13 DAY 1 14 15 16 17 18 19 U.S. Access Board 20 1331 F Street, NW, 21 8th Floor 22 Washington, DC 20004 23 24 Reporter: Sandra Gartrell 252

1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 2 (10:14 a.m.) 3 MR. BEATTY: Okay. Time for us to start. 4 Before I turn it over to the Board's 5 liaison, advisory committee Chris Hart, 6 something about the microphone. When you speak 7 you have to use the microphone. There is a 8 little button at the bottom. When you push 9 green, it is working. When it is red, it is 10 not working. So it is important you speak into 11 the microphone. So I will turn it over to 12 Chris. 13 MR. HART: Good morning, everybody. It is 14 very exciting that we are all here today. My 15 name is Chris Hart. I am a public member of 16 the Access Board and I will be serving as your 17 liaison for this committee. 18 My role as liaison, I will be providing 19 technical advice when necessary and will 20 liaison with the Access Board on our 21 discussions here. 22 As you know, the Access Board has changed 23 its guidelines over 20 years ago. And those 24 guidelines were published with a promise of 25 periodic updates on things that might need to3

1 be altered. 2 So here we are, 24 years later, almost, 3 and we are on the update on the rail vehicles 4 guidelines. 5 So it is really exciting for the Board. 6 The Board, as you know, has worked on material 7 vehicle guidelines and those are in process and 8 we are moving on to rail. 9 So with that, I would like to introduce my 10 friend and colleague Billy Altom. Billy and I 11 are on the steering committee and work closely 12 with many of you in this room. And we are in 13 good hands with Billy and I cannot speak of his 14 football team, but I can speak to Billy as a 15 good guitar player and Chair. So welcome, 16 Billy. 17 CHAIR ALTOM: Thank you. 18 MR. HART: And I will turn it over to you 19 and we should do introductions of everyone in 20 the room. 21 CHAIR ALTOM: Thank you, Chris. I 22 appreciate that, very much. 23 Looking at the agenda, we are looking at 24 welcomes this morning. Again, welcome, I 25 appreciate everyone being here. I'm thrilled4

1 to be here, honored that I was asked to serve 2 in the role. Kind of a new role for me. 3 I have been a transportation advocate for 4 many years now as executive director for 5 Association of Programs for Rural Independent 6 Living or APRIL. Any good disability 7 organization will have an acronym and we like 8 to go by APRIL. 9 But what I want to say is, as Chris 10 mentioned, it has been a long time. So we are 11 thrilled to be here to look at some of these 12 issues that should have been rectified a long 13 time ago, but hopefully we can find some common 14 ground and we can overcome some of the barriers 15 that prevent some of my brothers and sisters 16 with the fun things that come along with rail 17 travel. I have had the experience of riding 18 the train myself. It is a great experience. I 19 highly recommend it. Some access may be a 20 hinderance, but other than that, it is a good 21 process. I look forward to thinking of how 22 things are viewed. 23 So what we will do, we will start off to 24 my left and start off with Andre and if each 25 person will take a few moments to introduce5

1 yourself and where you are from and who you 2 represent. 3 MR. GAGNE: Yes, good morning. My name is 4 Andre Gagne. I work for Bombardier 5 Transportation, designer of rail cars. And I 6 have been working there for more than 20 years 7 now. I used to be an engineer in designing 8 interiors of rail cars, doing rail cars, 9 passenger seating and whatnot. Now what I do, 10 I'm a senior engineer and I guide young 11 engineers in doing the same. And I am very 12 proud to be part of this committee. Thank you, 13 very much. 14 MR. XUE: Good morning. I'm Jackson Xue. 15 I am a rail engineer with PB, have been with 16 them approximately seven years or so. The past 17 few years I have been focused on rail vehicles. 18 Parsons Brinckerhoff is a consultant 19 engineering firm. We provide services 20 worldwide. The division I'm part of, the 21 transit and rail divisions, we support various 22 transportation projects throughout the country 23 and throughout the world. And one of the main 24 projects we have been focused on for the past 25 several years has been the California High6

1 Speed Rail Program. So we are very excited to 2 be part of this committee and certainly thank 3 you for having us. 4 MR. WEISMAN: Hi. My name is Jim Weisman. 5 I'm from United Spinal Association. You might 6 have known us in another iteration when our 7 name was Eastern Paralyzed Veterans Association 8 some years ago. We have been transportation 9 advocates -- I'm a lawyer. We have been 10 transportation advocates for years, disability 11 advocates. And I was involved in making New 12 York City Transit accessible and SEPTA via 13 litigation, unfortunately, and in framing ADA. 14 In fact, some of the sections we were talking 15 about today -- and I didn't understand what we 16 were talking about then and maybe you can 17 explain it to me now. 18 (Chorus of Laughter) 19 MR. WEISMAN: I look forward to working 20 with you. I worked with some of you before and 21 I look forward to this. 22 MS. LYONS: Good morning. Crystal Lyons 23 representing the Southwest Transit Association. 24 It is an association of transit agencies and 25 business members that are in the eight states7

1 of Texas, Oklahoma, Arizona, Louisiana, 2 Arkansas, New Mexico, Colorado and Kansas. 3 There are many rail products; light rail, 4 commuter rail and street car and there is talk 5 of all three expanding in those states so it is 6 a very important area. 7 The members includes some of the 8 manufacturers of rail cars, along with the 9 transit agencies and a lot of business members, 10 consultants and some consultants, like myself, 11 that specialize in accessible transportation. 12 So that is why I'm here. 13 MS. LINTZ: Hi. I'm Janice Schacter 14 Lintz. I am a mother of a now 19-year-old 15 daughter who has a hearing loss. I got into 16 this world because of the crumbling services 17 given to people with hearing loss. I figured 18 it was easier to change the world than change 19 me. 20 The Hearing Access was the first program 21 to bring induction loops to the New York City 22 Transit and we brought it over from England. 23 We worked with the Hearing Loss Association to 24 brings induction loops to Amtrak. We pilot 25 tested on two buses in the New York City area.8

1 We are hoping to bring this type of access to 2 the full spectrum of hearing loss to the entire 3 country and we look forward to working together 4 with you. 5 MR. CARLSON: My name is Robert Carlson. 6 I work with the Community Transportation 7 Association of America. I'm working with 8 accessible and community transportation all 9 around the country, particularly in small 10 communities and tribal areas, as well as 11 advocating and working with the more urban type 12 systems. 13 I have been a 20-year commuter on rail 14 services of one sort of another. I have seen a 15 lot of changes and a few improvements. 16 MR. SAUCIER: Well, good morning. My name 17 is Stanton Saucier. I am representing the 18 Ricon Corporation, wholly subsidiary of the 19 Wabtec Corporation. I started off in 20 engineering and am in now marketing and product 21 planning. But basically I have spent my entire 22 career designing wheelchair lifting systems for 23 a myriad of vehicles, from private use vans 24 right on up to rail systems. 25 I have worked on the Metra program and9

1 several projects across the country and I'm 2 very proud to be part of this process and look 3 forward to working with you all. Thank you, 4 very much. 5 MR. CORAN: I'm Josh Coran. I work for 6 Talgo, Inc., which is also a wholly-owned 7 subsidiary of, in this case, a Spanish high 8 speed train manufacturer. I have been in the 9 railroad business before I got out of school. 10 I guess my first railroad paycheck was 1967 and 11 I have been working for rail builders. I was 12 involved in the first Superliner build, which 13 was prior to ADA and was the first cars built 14 with accessible accommodations. Talgo is 15 especially repeatedly the most friendly design 16 to people who are enabled by mobility aids, and 17 I look forward to working with this committee 18 to make more equipment that friendly. 19 MR. HOLBROOK: John Holbrook representing 20 Alstom Transportation out of Hornell, New York. 21 I have been with them 22 years -- 35 years in 22 the industry -- and my job there is everything 23 to do with the interior of a car. And as long 24 as I have been there, I have been responsible 25 for ADA compliance.10

1 MS. MARTIN: I'm Linda Martin. I'm an 2 attorney at the Federal Railroad Administration 3 and I'm here as the committee's ex-officio 4 federal member. 5 MR. BRIERS: Ken Briers. I'm a member of 6 the Board of Directors of the National 7 Association of Railroad Passengers, which is a 8 citizens advocacy group for expanded passenger 9 rail. I'm retired from Parsons Transportation 10 Group, the other Parsons. And before that I 11 worked for Amtrak and its predecessor as a 12 locomotive engineer and a conductor. 13 MR. PHILLIPS: Hello. My name is Andrew 14 Philips. I'm with the National Association of 15 the Deaf. We are involved with wheelchairs 16 from time to time and I'm excited to be working 17 with all of you. 18 MR. SLAUGHTER: I'm Blair Slaughter. 19 Don't believe the card. Officially I'm Joseph 20 and know one knows who that is except the IRS 21 and Amtrak and my teachers from grade school. 22 As I said, I'm from Amtrak. My background 23 is in industrial design. I started with Amtrak 24 in 1989, ahead of the ADA being finished up, 25 and I have been involved with accessibility11

1 issues with Amtrak ever since. I am glad to 2 see everyone here today. I think everyone has 3 a lot of things that they are very passionate 4 about, Amtrak included, and it is key that we 5 understand that accessibility is a very fluid 6 thing. It is not a point in time. It is not, 7 you know, ink on paper. So I look forward to 8 working with everyone and moving us forward. 9 MR. MICHEL: I'm Jonathan Michael and I 10 represent RailPlan International. I have been 11 involved with the rail industry for two and a 12 half years working with Blair Slaughter on the 13 new fuel liner LDSL program and the ADA realm 14 and looking forward to working with all of you. 15 MS. GOLDEN: I'm Marilyn Golden with the 16 Disability Rights Education and Defense Fund or 17 DREDF. We are a national law and policy center 18 for disability and civil rights. I had the 19 pleasure of serving on the Access Board for 20 several terms with Jim and have worked with 21 many of you. I'm very pleased to be involved 22 with this effort and working with everyone. 23 Hoping we can come to lots of consensus. 24 MR. VONASHEK: Good morning. Justin 25 Vonashek, director of Metra NE Regional12

1 Commuter Railroad in Chicago. We provide about 2 82 million trips per year and we appreciate 3 this opportunity and we are glad to be here. 4 Thank you. 5 MR. PEREZ: My name is Clifton Perez. I'm 6 representing the National Council on 7 Independent Living. I have been working on 8 transportation issues for many years and 9 looking forward to learn more. Very excited to 10 be in this group. Thank you, very much. 11 MS. PACHECO: I'm the not too technical 12 savvy person, I guess, at the table. My name 13 is Terry Pacheco and I am representing the 14 American Council of the Blind. I'm from the 15 greater D.C. area. I live in Maryland but I'm 16 originally from Boston. 17 I spent my life riding on rail. Right now 18 I average, between my husband, who is totally 19 blind, my son, who has got a cognitive 20 disability, and myself use Amtrak, for 21 instance, at least 75 times a year. 22 MR. CAPOZZI: It will come back. Keep 23 talking. 24 MS. PACHECO: And -- 25 <<<: Maybe you can swap it out.13

1 MS. PACHECO: Maybe it is my voice. 2 And I am pleased to be representing all of 3 the blind and low vision population in the 4 country. 5 MR. HUNTER: My name is Stanton Hunter. 6 I'm the chief of the office of rail equipment 7 for the California Department of 8 Transportation, division of rail, in 9 Sacramento. We own 102 passenger cars and 17 10 locomotives we use on Amtrak trains throughout 11 the State of California in northern and 12 Southern California. And I have been part of 13 the division of rail equipment program for 23 14 years. I now oversee all the related respected 15 functions, including computer modification, 16 accessibility, retrofits and acquisition of new 17 equipment. I'm also a part of the next 18 generation equipment committee where we are 19 currently procuring a third generation of 20 bilevel rail equipment. And I'm very pleased 21 to be here to represent the State of 22 California. 23 MR. CANNON: Hi. My name is Dennis 24 Cannon. I'm representing the National 25 Disability Rights Network, which is the14

1 national voice for protection and advocacy and 2 client assistance program, which are mandated 3 by federal law in all the states. 4 Originally started out to protect people 5 in institutions. It has now been expanded to 6 cover a lot of things, including trying to help 7 people get -- secure their rights and 8 responsibilities throughout the United States. 9 In a previous life I used to be a member 10 of the staff of the Access Board and at that 11 point I wrote the guidelines that are 12 presently -- they are not just rail vehicles, 13 by the way, they are fixed guideways. We also 14 talk about people movers, some of which have 15 rubber tires. 16 In addition to writing the guidelines 17 themselves, I wrote or edited nine technical 18 assistance manuals covering the various modes 19 of transportation and provided a lot of 20 technical assistance on telephone and on 21 conferences and so forth on how to understand 22 the guidelines. So I'm quite familiar with the 23 kinds of things that have caused concern and 24 confusion from the industry. 25 They were written originally following the15

1 kind of a format that was part of ADAAG, which 2 is a design to be a building code. So some of 3 the ways in which are not very convenient for 4 the engineering folks who don't follow building 5 code guidelines and formats. 6 So we have rewritten it in doing the bus 7 and van sections, which I hope everybody is 8 familiar with, because there is a chapter left 9 in that set of regulations specifically to 10 cover the kinds of things that we are going to 11 discuss here. 12 MS. BUNALES: Mr. Chairman, if I may, this 13 is Rosemary, U.S. Access Board, and I'm stage 14 left for anyone who cannot see. I do have Uwe 15 Rutenberg and Jordana Maisel on the phone and 16 your lines are open. And I also have listening 17 David Knight from DOJ and Glenn Millis from 18 Washington Metro and that is all I see. But 19 their lines are open. So if you wanted them to 20 say a few words. 21 CHAIR ALTOM: That would be great. If you 22 would like to introduce yourselves. 23 MR. RUTENBERG: Good morning. My name is 24 Uwe Rutenberg. I'm in Montreal, Canada. I've 25 been a private consultant. I work for 20 years16

1 to make all modes of transportation accessible 2 for elderly people and those with disabilities. 3 I recently designed the intercity trains in 4 Carda (ph) to make them accessible for coaches 5 and sleepers and we have done a project for the 6 FRA recently to draft the functional 7 requirements for accessible high speed and 8 intercity passenger rail single little cars 9 with the PRIIA. 10 And I'm looking forward to continue to 11 updating the ADA regulations with all of you. 12 Looking forward to working with you. 13 CHAIR ALTOM: Welcome. Thank you. 14 Next. 15 MS. MAISEL: Hi. My name is Jordana 16 Maisel. I'm also representing Ed Steinfeld, 17 who will be on the call later this afternoon 18 and tomorrow. So we are here from the IDeA 19 Center at the University of Buffalo. Ed is an 20 architect and gerontologist and director of the 21 center and I'm an urban planner and industrial 22 engineer and we are home to the Rehabilitation 23 Engineering Research Center on Accessible 24 Public Transportation. 25 We have done many human factors studies17

1 related to public buses for the past five years 2 and we were just extended for another five 3 years where we will continue to focus on 4 boarding and disembarking and design of buses. 5 MS. BUNALES: Mr. Chairman, back to you. 6 CHAIR ALTOM: We did have one gentlemen 7 just join us. Would you like to introduce 8 yourself, please. 9 MR. KOLIG: Good morning. My name is Eric 10 Kolig, with MARC train surface, the chief 11 officer and Maryland transit representative 12 today. Very happy to be here. 13 We are procuring 55 bilevel cars from 14 Bombardier and there are a number of overhauls 15 and new car procurement on the ARV and Metro 16 subway lines so very happy to be here and 17 participate. 18 CHAIR ALTOM: Staff volunteer for the 19 audience? 20 MS. BRUNSON: Good morning. I'm Melanie 21 Brunson and I am from Northern Virginia. I am 22 the executive director of the American Council 23 for the Blind and I'm the alternate 24 representative of that organization. Terry 25 Pacheco, who introduced herself earlier, is our18

1 representative. Thank you. 2 MR. SHIOTANI: Ken Shiotani from the 3 National Disability Rights Network. I'm the 4 alternate and we did a report on Amtrak 5 Stations, which, I think, people may have seen. 6 I can send electronic copies. I don't have any 7 hard copies with me, if folks are interested. 8 National Disability Rights Network is the 9 protection and advocacy -- member organization 10 of the protection and advocacy programs. We 11 have protection and advocacy entities in every 12 state and every territory and we work on behalf 13 of people with disabilities in all realms from 14 deinstitutionalization to community 15 integration. 16 MR. TALBOT: Gary Talbot. I was a past 17 Board member for a couple of terms and 18 currently at Amtrak and an alternate to Amtrak. 19 MR. WETHERELL: Yes, good morning. Mike 20 Wetherell and I'm the vice president and chief 21 mechanical officer for New York City Transit. 22 I'm also representing the MTA. 23 We are petitioning for membership of this 24 group. My group is responsible for specifying, 25 maintaining, procuring over 6,000 rail cars.19

1 We would like to join the group to help give a 2 little insight to the group for some of the 3 changes we want to make for improvements and 4 also to gain insight for our future 5 procurements. I will be giving a presentation 6 later on. 7 MR. HOFF: Good morning. My name is Ed 8 Hoff, director of ADA compliance at New Jersey 9 Transit. I will also present later on for your 10 consideration on this committee. I'm very 11 excited about this opportunity and I will talk 12 to you in a minute. Thank you. 13 MR. JOSEPH: Charles Joseph, representing 14 the American Public Transportation Association. 15 I too will be speaking later on in support of 16 an application to be on the committee. 17 MR. GRETHER: My name is Paul Grether, 18 Southwest Authority Regional Transit Authority, 19 Cincinnati Metro, Street Car Subcommittee. 20 I'm here today -- a lot of our member 21 projects with modern street car projects in 22 particular have run into a lot of issues 23 creating regulatory barriers with accessibility 24 with new modern 100 percent or partially low 25 floor vehicles. So we are here to hopefully20

1 advocate for some updates to the subpart D, the 2 light rail portion of the rail vehicle 3 accessibility standards. 4 MR. GIBSON: Good morning. My name is 5 Calvin Gibson. I'm the civil rights director 6 of the Federal Railroad Administration, and I'm 7 Linda's alternate. 8 MS. SHURLAND: Good morning. My name is 9 Melissa Shurland. I'm with the Federal 10 Railroad Administration, Office of R&D. And I 11 work with the PRIIA group in getting enhanced 12 accessibility from the next generation of 13 passenger rail cars. 14 MS. MILTON: Hi. I'm Naomi Milton with 15 the U.S. Department of Justice. I'm an 16 attorney there. There are also a few people 17 from my office who are listening in on the 18 phone. 19 MR. FODOR: Good morning. I'm Thomas 20 Fodor with the U.S. Department of Justice, 21 Disability Rights Section. 22 MR. GOLDSTEIN: Good morning. Sid 23 Goldstein, editor of Transit Access Report. 24 MS. HAMLIN: Hello, I'm Lise Hamlin. I'm 25 director of public policy at Hearing Loss21

1 Association of America and I will be also among 2 the people petitioning this group to join you. 3 MR. HOLMAN: Good morning. My name is 4 Pierre Holman, a principle planner with the 5 City of Alexandria and also staff liaison at 6 WMATA and I'm part of the early career program 7 within the City of Alexandria. We are 8 exploring street cars so I am kind of here to 9 learn. 10 MS. MARINA: Good morning. My name is 11 Frances MARINA representing Chicago. 12 MR. SINGH: My name is Gurmil Singh and I 13 am with Siemens Transportation Systems, 14 Sacramento. And have been with them since 1999 15 and am here to also apply with the application 16 for the committee. 17 MS. FAIRHALL: Good morning. I'm Lisa 18 Fairhall, the deputy general counsel, and I 19 will be your FACA attorney for supporting you 20 during this Federal Advisory Committee Act. 21 Thanks. 22 MS. NOE: I'm Aromke Noe. And I'm a staff 23 person at the Access Board and I will explain 24 to you about the regulatory impact analysis. 25 MS. ANDERSON: Good morning. I'm Lisa22

1 Anderson, transportation engineer with the 2 Access Board, and eventually I will be the lead 3 staff for this rule as we move forward. I'm 4 happy to see everybody here and I'm sure we can 5 work together and get a good rule going. 6 MR. WINDLEY: Scott Windley, staff member 7 with the Board. And I will be assisting 8 Melissa with the efforts and with Paul on this 9 rulemaking. 10 MS. MAZZ: Marsha Mazz in the Office of 11 Technical and Information Services and Paul and 12 Scott and Melissa are on my staff. And our 13 office develops rulemakings and provides 14 technical assistance and training on our 15 various guidelines and standards and I will be 16 talking with you later. 17 MS. BUNALES: Good morning. Rose Marie 18 Bunales, U.S. Access Board. I'm the executive 19 secretary. I serve the director, Office of the 20 General Counsel but for this committee I am the 21 clerk managing most of the staff in the room. 22 If you need anything, just let me know. 23 MR. BEATTY: I'm Paul Beatty. I'm the 24 designated federal officer. 25 MR. CAPOZZI: Okay. Good morning. My23

1 name is David Capozzi. I'm the executive 2 director of the U.S. Access Board. Thank you 3 all for volunteering to participate. You don't 4 know what you are getting into, but we 5 appreciate your efforts so far and what is to 6 come. Some of you know what is to come, some 7 of you have participated before and some have 8 worked in different capacities. Some of you 9 know a little bit about the Access Board and 10 some of you probably don't. 11 Let me give you a quick thumbnail sketch 12 of who the Board is, what we do and a little 13 bit about our programs and activities. 14 I have been with the Board for a little 15 over 20 years. Before that I was with the 16 Paralyzed Veterans of America. I was the 17 national advocacy director, worked a lot with 18 Jim Weisman in one of our chapters at the time. 19 And then I was with the National Easter Seals 20 Society and was one of the early directors of 21 Project Action. 22 So the Access Board is a small independent 23 federal agency. By that I mean we are not part 24 of a larger federal agency. We get our 25 appropriations from Congress, like the larger24

1 agencies. It is just that ours is very small. 2 Our budget last year was 7 million-dollars and 3 shrinking due to sequestration. That is why 4 you don't have coffee. 5 We have a small staff also. We have staff 6 of 29. We are a fairly flat organization. We 7 are run by a Board of Directors, if you will. 8 So we have a staff of 29 and a board of 25. 9 Thirteen of the 25 are public members who are 10 appointed by the President for a term of years, 11 four years and then they can be reappointed for 12 another four years. So Chris is a public 13 member, Jim Weisman used to be a public member, 14 Marilyn Golden used to be public member, Gary 15 Talbot used to be a public member of the Board. 16 So it is good to see some familiar faces and 17 some history reflected on this committee as 18 well. 19 The other 12 members of the Board are 20 federal agency representatives. So the 21 Department of Transportation is a Board member, 22 Department of Justice is a Board member. Other 23 agencies like that. 24 We meet every other month in this room and 25 then once a year we meet out of town. This25

1 year we will be meeting in New York City in 2 May. 3 We have four principle program areas. The 4 one that consumes most of our time and the one 5 that is going to consume your time is 6 guidelines and standards development. And we 7 develop guidelines and standards under virtuous 8 laws, like Post Offices or federal transit 9 facilities as well that receive federal funds. 10 We write accessibility guidelines under 11 the Americans with Disabilities Act for 12 buildings and facilities. So for transit 13 stations, buildings, restaurants, theaters, 14 every type of facility you can think of, except 15 for private homes and churches, and all types 16 of vehicles. 17 We don't write requirements for airlines 18 because they are covered under another act and 19 not vehicles. 20 And then we write accessibility 21 requirements for some other laws for technology 22 under the Telecommunications Act. We write the 23 Section 508 standards for electronic and 24 information technology that the government buys 25 under the Rehab Act. And then we write26

1 standards for medical diagnostic equipment 2 under the Patient Protection and Affordable 3 Care Act. 4 We provide free training and technical 5 assistance. We have a small and shrinking 6 research program and we enforce the 7 Architectural Barriers Act. So if someone has 8 a complaint about a federal facility, they can 9 file a complaint with us. We would investigate 10 and if we have jurisdiction, fix the problem 11 with the federal agency. 12 So over the years since the ADA was 13 enacted, we have done a tremendous amount of 14 rulemaking. We wrote the original 15 Accessibility Guidelines in 1991. We 16 supplemented those immediately thereafter with 17 requirements for transportation vehicles and 18 transportation facilities, and then added 19 supplements for state and local government 20 facilities like courthouses and judicial 21 facilities. And then we added provisions for 22 children environments, play areas, recreation 23 facilities. So you can see we regulate a lot 24 of things. 25 And we just recently issued final27

1 requirements for the great outdoors, 2 campgrounds, picnic areas, beach access routes 3 for federal facilities, trails and the National 4 Park Service and Forest Service properties. 5 We also have a lot of rulemaking currently 6 underway. We have eight different rules that 7 are in various stages or planned to be stages 8 of rulemaking. 9 One is on passenger vessels. We are in 10 the process of working on a final rule. The 11 comment period for our proposed rule is still 12 open. Another is public rights-of-way and 13 shared use paths, streets and sidewalks, 14 detectable warnings, hiker and biker trails, 15 that was a proposed rule. We are working on a 16 final rule for that. 17 Transportation, we bifurcated that. That 18 is about to be a final rule and the second part 19 is the part you are working on the rail 20 vehicles. 21 We were revisiting and updating and 22 revising our requirements for electronic and 23 information technology. We are beginning the 24 process of developing requirements for 25 self-service transaction machines, like those28

1 that you would see at a hotel when you check in 2 or at a grocery store when you check out, to 3 make those accessible to people with vision 4 impairments or people with physical 5 disabilities in terms of reach range. 6 We are about to issue final rules for 7 emergency transportable housing like those used 8 after Hurricane Katrina, and final rules for 9 medical diagnostic and working on classroom 10 acoustics. 11 Those are the rules we are currently 12 working on with the staff of 29 that we have. 13 I want to give you a little overview about 14 rulemaking because it is an area that you need 15 to be familiar with and it is an area that some 16 people are not so familiar with. 17 The process is relatively simple, but I 18 also want to talk about our authority. 19 So under the ADA -- and that is really all 20 I will talk about. Our authority deals with 21 new construction and alterations. So existing 22 facilities are covered by other agencies, not 23 by us. 24 Under the ADA and under the Architectural 25 Barriers Act, our rulemaking goes through a29

1 two-step process. We write guidelines. They 2 are not enforceable until they are adopted by 3 an enforcing agency. In this case under the 4 ADA, it is the Department of Justice and the 5 Department of Transportation. So we write 6 guidelines and they are not enforceable until 7 they are adopted by a standard setting agency. 8 Our authority also extends only to the 9 fixed items in a building or in a vehicle. So 10 chattel, tables that are not fixed, chairs that 11 are not fixed, the window shades in the room, 12 you know, things like that, interpreters, 13 service animals, those things that would fall 14 out of a building, if I you were able to turn 15 it upside down and shake it, we don't cover 16 those. That is not within our authority. 17 Other agencies have authority over 18 non-fixed and freestanding equipment. In fact, 19 the Department of Justice back in 2010 issued 20 an advance notice of proposed rulemaking on 21 equipment. So they have kind of staked that 22 out. 23 So the process of doing rulemaking 24 involves two steps; a proposed rule and then a 25 final rule.30

1 So you publish a proposed rule on the 2 Federal Register, which is like the nation's 3 digest of federal regulations, it is online, 4 and then provide the public with a comment 5 period. Sixty days is the minimum. And you 6 analyze the comments and publish it in the 7 Federal Register as a final rule. 8 Part of the process also that Aromke will 9 talk about is the development of regulatory 10 assessments or cost benefit analysis. That is 11 required at both stages, the proposed rule 12 stage and final rule stage. 13 And at both stages, the proposed rule 14 stage and the final rule stage, we submit our 15 rulemaking to an agency called the Office of 16 Management and Budget. It is an arm of the 17 White House. And they review all federal 18 regulations for consistency with administration 19 policy. So it is not just us that has to go 20 through the process. 21 And then they get up to 90 days to review 22 the proposed rule and review the final rule and 23 then eventually the rule gets published. That 24 is the minimum that agencies are required to go 25 through.31

1 We often enhance the rulemaking process 2 for a couple of reasons; one, to collect 3 information. 4 If we don't have enough information to 5 proceed with a proposed rule, we want to 6 collect that information and we can do that 7 through a variety of ways. And also to build 8 support. So some of our enhancements are to 9 build support for the rulemaking so that it 10 sees greater compliance, greater voluntary 11 compliance. 12 One of the ways that we add to the 13 rulemaking process is sometimes we will do 14 information meetings. So not a public hearing, 15 but a more informal discussion about a specific 16 topic. We will have lengthy comment periods. 17 The mandated minimum is 60 days. We will often 18 exceed that. In fact, our passenger vessel 19 rulemaking is out for about a seven-month 20 comment period. So we have lengthy comment 21 periods. 22 We will also do public hearings. We 23 typically do at least one in Washington during 24 a Board meeting and then, budget permitted, at 25 least another one outside of Washington,32

1 sometimes in conjunction with a large trade 2 association event so that we can get a good 3 group of people with knowledge about a topic. 4 And so we will do public hearings during the 5 comment period as well so that we can hear 6 directly from people instead of just through 7 writing. 8 And then one of the other enhancements is 9 advisory committees, like this one. So we 10 often form advisory committees to give the 11 Board advice on what the proposed rule should 12 contain. 13 In one case we have actually done an 14 advisory committee to give us advice on a final 15 rule. But typically advisory committees are 16 used by federal agencies to develop 17 recommendations, to help the agency prepare for 18 a proposed rule. And that is what this 19 advisory committee will do. 20 We have used advisory committees 21 extensively since I have been here beginning in 22 1992. Since then this will be our 14th 23 advisory committee and we have involved almost 24 350 committees in those advisory committees. 25 And they run the gamut.33

1 This was a picture of our largest advisory 2 committee that gave us advice on updating our 3 electronic and information technology 4 requirements. It was a 41-member organization 5 with representation from other countries as 6 well. Canada, Japan, Australia and the 7 European Commission were also on that 8 committee. 9 So we make good use of advisory committees 10 and we really try to listen to your 11 recommendations. To the extent that they are 12 consensus recommendation, it is very hard for 13 the Board to ignore your recommendations. So 14 strive for consensus is one of the messages I 15 can give you. 16 Just a little bit about the roles. Chris 17 Hart is a public Board member, as I said 18 before. His role is really as a liaison, to 19 listen and take information back to the Board 20 and report to them on the progress that you're 21 making and also to share any concerns that the 22 Board may have with you so you don't go too far 23 afield in an area or you don't miss an area as 24 well. 25 And then Paul's duties are more than just34

1 paper pushing. His duties are to really 2 develop the agenda in conjunction with Billy, 3 to make sure he attends all the meetings and 4 subcommittee meetings, if you form 5 subcommittees. He keeps records. We are using 6 the CART system to both provide accommodation 7 to people in the room but it also helps us with 8 our recordkeeping as well. 9 He takes care of making logistical 10 arrangements and there are many. And so those 11 details get taken care of by Paul and Rose. He 12 develops Federal Register Notices for meeting 13 announcements and then he supports the Chair 14 during the meeting. So you will see him 15 whispering in Billy's ear. It is not really to 16 direct but make sure we keep Billy out of 17 trouble and adhere to the federal 18 acquisition -- or the Federal Advisory 19 Committee Act requirements. 20 So, again, thank you in advance for the 21 work you are about to embark on. It is a great 22 process. As I said, this is our 14th advisory 23 committee. I was involved with three others 24 before this and had the pleasure of chairing 25 one for the Department of Transportation that35

1 wrote the original ADA regulations for DOT. So 2 I can commensurate with you but I think you 3 will find it a valuable process and we look 4 forward to your work. So thank you. 5 CHAIR ALTOM: Thank you, very much. Did I 6 miss anyone in the room who didn't get an 7 opportunity to introduce themselves? I don't 8 see anybody behind the pole. Okay. 9 MS. BUNALES: That is a negative and I 10 don't see anyone new on the lines either, 11 Mr. Chairman. 12 CHAIR ALTOM: Thank you. 13 Tell you where we are quickly on our 14 agenda. What we wanted to do this morning is 15 first off get to know who is in the room. 16 Because I think it is important that we 17 establish a relationship with each other and 18 kind of become friends and see if we can find 19 common purpose here. 20 We have gone around and introduced each 21 other and listened a little bit about our 22 purpose. What I would like to do next is allow 23 Rose to talk about something near and dear, 24 where is the restrooms and lunches and those 25 issues and other administrative matters.36

1 MS. BUNALES: I am here. I'm the one with 2 the referee shirt on today. Don't ask me why I 3 wore this today. 4 For people that are blind and visually 5 impaired, this is stage left on the side of the 6 room. Can you hear me? And I will be seated 7 behind Paul Beatty and Billy, the chairman. 8 First before I get into what I'm supposed 9 to talk about, Matthew French is assigned to IT 10 in the room. He is not here. We have WiFi and 11 the codes are placed in various places on 12 placards. If you need to get on WiFi, let Matt 13 know. And we have assistive listening. And if 14 you need a receiver, let us know and if it does 15 not work, tell us sooner. 16 We do have teleconferencing right now. 17 Again, I have the web component up on my 18 screen. I do see who is on the phone. So the 19 members you must have -- that are 20 participating, if we skip over something and 21 you need to say something, just jump in, state 22 your name and, you know, respond to questions 23 or give comments and that sort of thing. 24 Everybody else will be muted full time 25 until public comment period. So that is the37

1 teleconferences. 2 And then evacuation, lunchroom, lunch, 3 coffee. 4 How to evacuate the room and the building. 5 First things first. We have two exits from the 6 room. The first one will actually take you out 7 to the elevator lobby and out to the 8 stairwells. The second one is directly behind 9 me and it actually goes out to the men's room 10 corridor. So what you want to do is take -- 11 those who can take the stairs will take one of 12 two stairwells. The ladies room will take you 13 out to the rear of the building, to the G 14 Street alley. 15 When you exit the alley you turn left and 16 you head over to the TD Bank. When you exit 17 the men's room side of the stairwells, the 18 stairwells take you out to the building lobby. 19 You will exit the building and turn right and, 20 again, head toward the corner where the TD Bank 21 is located. 22 Actually the window side of the building 23 now is when you walk outside. That is F 24 Street. And if there was nothing in front of 25 you, you would be staring at the Smithsonian38

1 Castle and the Washington Monument. To the 2 right is the White House and the Treasury 3 Building and to the left is the Verizon Center 4 and Capitol Building. 5 So what you want to do is to find the TD 6 Bank. Our rally point, if we have to evacuate, 7 is to go to the White House to the end of the 8 corner and wait for further instructions at the 9 TD Bank. 10 Men's room are pass the elevators and 11 hairpin right. And ladies' room is pass the 12 elevators and hairpin right. The exit 13 stairways are right angle left and right angle 14 right, just pass the elevators. If I'm going 15 too fast let me know. 16 There are plenty of places to get food, 17 plenty of places to get coffee. 18 Same thing with Metro and parking. Metro 19 is to the left and plenty of parking anywhere 20 you need to go. Sorry I said it wrong. But 21 there is also plenty of parking also. 22 Administrative stuff. I do keep 23 everybody's email and your addresses and 24 everything like that current. If anything 25 changes, you need to let me know. If you39

1 change a member or alternate, you need to let 2 me know. 3 Also when you come in every day you need 4 to sign the visitor log. That is for 5 everybody. 6 Outside of that, is there anything that 7 people need me to explain again, or if you have 8 any other burning questions? 9 As far as the teleconferencing goes, yes, 10 we have people on the teleconference so in 11 order for them to hear you, you need to use the 12 microphones. 13 And everybody when you take the mic, state 14 your name before you go into your questions or 15 your comments. 16 Mr. Chairman. 17 CHAIR ALTOM: Perfect, thank you, very 18 much. One of the things too we were emailed 19 before we all got here kind of a bullet pointed 20 agenda that we looked at during our welcome. 21 There were eight points on that particular for 22 today. We look at overview of the committee 23 charter, we look at our Federal Advisory 24 Committee Act overview, a review and approval 25 of protocols, potential new membership. You40

1 have heard many of them talk in the audience of 2 prepared remarks. We also establish our future 3 meeting dates and starting to review the 4 current rail guidelines and establish our 5 committee priorities. And then at the end we 6 will have an opportunity again for public 7 input. Excuse me if I'm a little hoarse today. 8 I am still battling a cold I have not been able 9 to shake yet. Bear with me. 10 We would like to go over the overview of 11 the committee charter and purpose and 12 rulemaking process and I'm thrilled to have 13 Marsha and Aromke help me with this. 14 MS. MAZZ: Bear with me. I am going to 15 ask Rose to advance the slides because I use 16 screen magnification and if I zoom up you will 17 get sick. The first slide it says "Committee 18 Purpose." I am really not going to go into 19 great detail on the charter. You all have a 20 copy of it, I presume, and you can refer to it 21 later. 22 The main purpose of the committee is to 23 advise the Access Board on updates and 24 guidelines. And this is truly an advising 25 role, although, as David said, because you are41

1 a consensus body and to the extent you reach 2 consensus, the Access Board finds it very 3 difficult to overlook that advice. 4 Although you are not writing the 5 regulation, certainly you are in the role of 6 contributing to it in an incredibly meaningful 7 way. 8 Next slide. 9 David has already talked a little bit 10 about why we use advisory committees. And I 11 think we are one of the few federal agencies 12 that uses advisory committees pretty much as a 13 routine matter. We find it combines the best 14 elements of consensus development, consensus 15 standard development and rulemaking and the 16 federal practice in that consensus bodies 17 typically works on procedures where everybody 18 can play, everybody can contribute. It is very 19 open, as is this process here. It is open, it 20 is open to the public. Anybody can listen in 21 and anybody can review your records. 22 And during public comment, anybody who is 23 a member of the public can contribute their 24 thoughts to the directions you are going in. 25 And it also has the advantage of the42

1 federal process where we publish a Notice of 2 Proposed Rulemaking and then once again, 3 anybody can comment on that proposed rule and 4 we are bound to take their comments seriously. 5 So that combination, I think, really 6 strengthens our process. 7 In all honesty it allows the Board to 8 access expertise that is not readily available 9 to us. As David said, we have 29 staff members 10 and we don't have every possible expertise on 11 staff and never could with that size of an 12 agency. 13 So we are tapping in here to a lot of 14 expertise about the needs of people with 15 disabilities and engineering factors and 16 industrial design factors and other factors 17 that will contribute to good decisions about 18 the rule. 19 And David also mentioned that this process 20 develops support for the rule and we really 21 hope that each of you will be a proponent for 22 this rulemaking as we go through from your 23 committee report to our proposed rule and to 24 our final rule. Although we know that not 25 everybody will agree with every jot and tittle43

1 in it. By and large we hope that you will 2 advocate for this rule to go forward. 3 One of the things I want to address that 4 is under our jurisdiction -- next slide. And 5 by the way, there are no pictures on my slides. 6 So I'm not describing any. 7 One of the things that I want to address 8 is sort of what we can address. And David 9 alluded to this earlier with respect to the 10 things that fall out when you turn the building 11 upside down is really not within our purview. 12 We are looking at the physical elements of the 13 vehicle that uses a fixed guideway system. 14 And by and large, that is rail, although, 15 as Dennis noted earlier, some fixed guideway 16 systems are rubber tire, although we tend 17 in-house to refer as the rail rule and the 18 rubber tire rule as being the other rule. But 19 we do know that there is a little bit of 20 overlap there. 21 And, again, we address new and 22 remanufactured transportation vehicles, new and 23 altered transportation vehicles. And this next 24 part is important to the extent required by 25 regulations issued by DOT and, of course, DOJ44

1 as well. 2 And this is beginning to sort of show you 3 where there is a dividing line in terms of our 4 responsibility and Justice's and 5 Transportation's. We will write the technical 6 standard. 7 Next slide. 8 And we will write the technical 9 requirements for the vehicle. For example, the 10 size, the location of various elements within 11 the vehicle. The configuration of the vehicle 12 for accessibility and we will make decisions 13 about references, various voluntary consensus 14 standards that may be out there or maybe even 15 federal standards that are out there and 16 available for reference. 17 We will address some elements of scoping. 18 And scoping in our documents is usually the 19 number of required -- elements required to be 20 accessible, usually in comparison to the number 21 of elements not required to be accessible. In 22 other words, something like one in six, one in 23 10 or one on each train. 24 Some of these scoping requirements are 25 already established in the law and we are not45

1 free to change those. 2 Other types of scoping triggering events 3 are in the federal -- in other agencies 4 regulations and is strictly their purview. We 5 don't get, for example, to say when you get to 6 comply, what the effective date is for 7 compliance for new vehicles or this new 8 standard. That is something that is the 9 responsibility of the enforcing authority. 10 Next slide. 11 A few things that we cannot address. We 12 cannot address policies, practices, procedures 13 or modifications to policies, practices or 14 procedures. Again, although these are required 15 to be nondiscriminatory and you are required to 16 modify policies, practices and procedures to 17 avoid discrimination, that is not the Access 18 Board's responsibility. 19 If you think of us as more on the end of 20 the architecture and the engineering and DOT 21 and DOJ as the enforcers and the attorneys, I 22 think that sort of helps to understand where 23 the line gets drawn between our authority and 24 theirs. 25 We wont be addressing furniture and46

1 equipment. That is not part of the vehicle. 2 So that also would include things that might 3 be -- elements that might be given only to 4 people with disabilities, auxillary aids for 5 example, a handheld magnifier to read the menu. 6 Other types of auxillary aids that may be 7 required by the ADA but are not subject to our 8 rulemaking; or services, such as interpreting 9 services and whether or not to permit certain 10 types of service animals, for example. These 11 are all outside our purview and not part of our 12 rulemaking. 13 If Paul doesn't send up a red flag when 14 you get into those area, there are a bunch of 15 us here who will. I suspect he will be the 16 first to set off those flags. 17 Understand this is not -- when we do say, 18 you know, "Gee whiz, that is not within our 19 scope," it really is because it is not within 20 our scope, not within our authority, not 21 because there is any resistance on the Access 22 Board part to address these issues. We would 23 like to address them, but we can't. 24 Out of this committee's scope our 25 issues -- on the next slide -- to buses and47

1 vans, mostly rubber tires. And with respect to 2 the bus rule, you know we have a Notice of 3 Proposed Rulemaking. You also know that 4 Notices of Proposed Rulemaking are our first 5 draft and we are going to publish a final rule 6 in the near future and it may or may not 7 resemble that first draft. 8 The Board does make changes as it goes 9 along in terms of the rules. 10 So I would urge you to think in terms of 11 what accessibility is minimally needed on rail 12 vehicles, or vehicles within your purview and 13 not hang yourself up too much on what is in 14 that proposed rule for other types of vehicles 15 for two reasons: One, they are different. 16 And, secondly, what is publicly available may 17 not survive the rulemaking and may change. 18 And one of the things that we are 19 considering at this point is whether this rail 20 rule would be an entirely separate document, 21 rather than a chapter of the larger document. 22 And we may very well do that. So please don't 23 be too hamstrung by what is in the proposed 24 rule. 25 Next slide.48

1 One of the things that I would like to 2 cover is what we would like to see in a final 3 report. 4 Obviously we want to see recommendations 5 for revision of any of our current 6 requirements. And I suggest that as you look 7 at the current requirements you ask yourself, 8 "Does it need to change? Do we need to remove 9 it or delete it or should we retain it pretty 10 much as is?" 11 Don't get hung up on the format, please. 12 Access Board staff develop rules all the time. 13 We can develop the format. We will put in your 14 metric equivalents, we will put in your 15 "shalls" and all of that. 16 What we are looking for from you, really, 17 is, you know, we want to pick your brains and 18 we want the meat of your recommendations. 19 Next slide. 20 The next thing we would like to see from 21 you are recommendations to address gaps in the 22 current requirements. First look at the 23 current requirement or second, however order 24 you want to do it in, and ask yourself if they 25 need to change or need to be revised or if they49

1 should be retained. 2 Secondly, look at where there may be gaps. 3 I'm suggesting you want to address, obviously, 4 mobility access and communication access and 5 any other areas relating to features for people 6 with disabilities that may not currently be 7 served by the rules. 8 So if there are people with disabilities 9 who face barriers that are currently, you know, 10 underserved or not served at all, we want to 11 know about that and we want your 12 recommendations. 13 Next slide. 14 Again, what we would like to see when you 15 develop your recommendations is a discussion of 16 why the particular change is needed. You 17 recommend the change and tell us why the change 18 is needed. Share with us relevant data or 19 other information that you consider as you 20 deliberate what should be in your committee 21 report. 22 It is useful always to let us know a 23 description of who benefits from this change; 24 you know, what types of barriers are you 25 meaning to overcome, who is the target audience50

1 for this particular change. 2 And it may not be individuals with 3 disabilities. It may be industry. Industry 4 may have a particular regulatory -- see a 5 particular regulatory barrier that you all 6 agree needs to be removed and to the extent 7 that, you know, the intent here is to remove 8 that regulatory barrier, let us know that. 9 And where possible cost considerations. 10 And Aromke will talk more about the regulatory 11 impact on cost considerations. 12 Next slide. 13 I want to say that the Access Board's job 14 is to essentially write minimum guidelines, to 15 develop the minimum appropriate standard to 16 ensure nondiscrimination on the basis of 17 disability. We are, every single one of us, 18 always tempted to do beyond the minimum, you 19 know, the ideal, what really, really solves all 20 the problems. 21 And, again, think about what is minimally 22 necessary to solve the problems for the 23 majority of the people that you are concerned 24 with. 25 We will probably never get to the ideal.51

1 But you may have some recommendations where you 2 want to say to the public, "You know, when you 3 can, go beyond and here is how we recommend you 4 go beyond," where you have those 5 recommendations and you want to identify them 6 as something more. Good practice, best 7 practice. Please do that and let us know what 8 those are and those can be included in your 9 committee report. 10 The next thing is always a hard thing to 11 say to committees. But we do have existing ADA 12 standards. They have various dimensions in 13 them for wheelchair space, for reach ranges, 14 for what constitutes a protruding object, all 15 of those things. 16 We would encourage you to build on the 17 2010 ADA standards or the DOT 2000 and Linda 18 correct me if I'm wrong. Six? 19 <<<: Four. 20 MS. MAZZ: 2006 standards which is 21 essentially the same technical criteria. If 22 you feel it is necessary to depart from that 23 anthropometry or dimensions, feel free, go 24 ahead, but please give us the reasons. Because 25 when we depart from the existing bedrock52

1 building block standards, we create an 2 inconsistency in our guidelines that makes them 3 vulnerable for attack, quite bluntly. So we 4 need to have a good reason to go forward. 5 An example for that is in our publics 6 rights-of-way proposed rule. We had proposed a 7 wider route, a wider circulation path for 8 persons with disabilities in the exterior 9 environment. And we have done that because of 10 a number of factors, including crowding on 11 sidewalks, including the desire, at least when 12 you are outdoors, to have a person who may use 13 a mobility device travel next to someone as a 14 companion walking together down the streets 15 rather than walking like ducks one behind the 16 other down the street. 17 Also in certain climates you might be 18 wearing a lot more clothing outside than you 19 would inside. 20 So we had a reason for a wider route in 21 our proposed rule for public rights-of-way. 22 And it was not just arbitrary. Please try to 23 avoid being arbitrary in selecting your 24 recommended dimensions. 25 Next slide.53

1 So the format. I use the word "plain 2 English" here very advisedly because I don't 3 always get "plain English." If you can simply 4 articulate what it is you want to get at, what 5 the problem, how you want to solve it in your 6 committee report. Please don't try to write a 7 regulation. Just let us know what your 8 recommendation is. Make it clear and the 9 Access Board staff and the Board itself will 10 then massage those words into a format that 11 will work for our rules. 12 Again, supplementary materials, such as 13 illustration or best practices or advisory, my 14 recommendation to you is to not spend too much 15 time on that. Do develop those where time 16 permits, though, and share them with us. 17 And last slide. 18 Thank you. We really do value the 19 expertise around this table. You are all 20 handpicked by our chair and we are really, 21 really proud to have you here and consider 22 Melissa and myself and Lisa and Aromke and 23 others as resources available to you. All of 24 our phone numbers, everybody here at the Access 25 Board, all of our staff are on the website so54

1 feel free to pick up the phone and give us a 2 call if you have any issues. 3 Of course Paul is your first point of 4 contact. And if you can't reach Paul and you 5 have something you need to discuss that you 6 can't iron out, we are all here. And we do 7 work as a team. So thank you. 8 CHAIR ALTOM: Awesome. Thank you, Marsha. 9 Aromke is up next for us. 10 MS. NOE: Good morning. My name is Aromke 11 Noe. I work at General Counsel's Office and I 12 am here to explain you a little bit about the 13 regulatory impact analysis. 14 So far David Capozzi and Marsha touched on 15 the sort of rulemaking process and talked a 16 little bit about cost and benefit. So I'm 17 hoping to just articulate a little bit more so 18 you have some sense of what we are talking 19 about here. 20 Rose Marie, can you put that -- 21 MS. BUNALES: This one? 22 MS. NOE: Yeah. I just put this one here 23 not to expect everybody to read -- I can't read 24 all those things, too small letters -- what 25 rulemaking process looks like.55

1 The rulemaking is how we make the 2 guidelines, but this process is governed by 3 law, which called the Administration of 4 Procedure Act, APA. So it is not a process we 5 just made up. It is a process governed by 6 laws. And, as David explained, all other 7 federal agencies go through this kind of 8 process. 9 Basically this process explained earlier, 10 we develop a proposed rule and publish in the 11 Federal Register and give the public comments. 12 We review it. We change or we not change. And 13 the final rule. For a chunk but in between 14 is -- in between there are two processes which 15 are OMB review process, which was established 16 by the Executive Order 12A66. It is called the 17 Regulatory Planning and Review. It was issued 18 by President Clinton in 1993. 19 The purpose of that Executive Order was to 20 enhance coordination with respect to new and 21 old regulations and have it more accessible and 22 open to public. So invite a lot of public 23 input in the rulemaking, federal rulemaking 24 process. 25 But along with that, there is an OMB56

1 review process. So once agency develop the 2 rules, they need to go to OMB to show OMB why 3 we develop the new rules and why we need to 4 change the current rules and how much that cost 5 and who benefits. So it is OMB's job to look 6 at those things and review it and this is when 7 we get -- once we approve, we get the publish 8 in Federal Register. You can see in the 9 website, directinfo.gov, that explains the 10 regulatory process. 11 Currently we are in Step 1 and 2. You 12 guys trying to deliberate what the kind of 13 policies we should come up with. So once you 14 develop recommendations then, as Marsha said, 15 the people here will write a language, look 16 like regulation language, come up with the 17 rules. 18 And then we will go to OMB for review 19 before we publish. But at that time what we 20 need is an impact analysis, which is looking at 21 the impact of regulations, impact of the rules 22 we come up with, both cost and benefits. And 23 so as you talk about type of recommendations 24 you are thinking about, I would like you to ask 25 you to think about what are the costs of the57

1 things that we are proposed to change. 2 Sometimes it can be straightforward, but 3 many times it is not straightforward and 4 usually the straightforward the cost would be 5 like, you know, unit cost like the microphones, 6 you know, the unit cost of the microphones for 7 the room and you multiply by how many we need 8 and that is the cost. A lot of the times it is 9 not that straightforward. 10 Sometimes the fact some are depending on 11 the situation, some microphones -- all of them, 12 so you don't want to change all at once, for 13 example. 14 But we do not expect you to know all the 15 cost. But if you do know the cost, then please 16 consider to discuss in your report. And also 17 sometimes if you don't know the cost but you 18 think you know where we can find that kind of 19 cost, then let us know, what are the sources, 20 where the data source out there or if you think 21 it would be good for us to talk to some 22 manufacturers or some other people or you think 23 have a recommendation to pursue that cost where 24 we should look, then please tell us. That 25 would be helpful for us. When we go to OMB58

1 without that piece, the impact analysis piece, 2 we cannot go to OMB. 3 The process is long and each process needs 4 to be complete. 5 When we put the packages together without 6 the cost and benefit, it won't be complete. So 7 that means we need to finish it. 8 Sometimes we won't know cost, so "Access 9 Board, you go ahead and find it." We can find 10 it, but it will take us a while to do it. If 11 we want the process to go timely and have the 12 rules you want to see sooner, we need to have 13 that type of information. 14 Also, as Marsha talked about, in terms of 15 benefit, to make sure they are full benefits 16 and how they benefit and tries to articulate 17 it. If you have anecdotal stories or something 18 that describe very concretely, will be very 19 useful. It will help somebody -- sort of 20 general assertions. So the extent that is 21 possible, if you can think about the cost of 22 your proposals and benefits of your proposal 23 will be useful. 24 MS. BUNALES: Mr. Chairman, if I may, I 25 have a question from the CART chat room. And59

1 the question was, "How do people following CART 2 see the presentations on the screen?" And the 3 answer is we do not have the capability at this 4 point, unfortunately. 5 So we hope to have that resolved at some 6 point. But at the moment, no, we don't -- if 7 you are sitting on CART, you cannot see the 8 presentations. 9 MS. NOE: For this particular map, I put 10 up the visual aid is available at REGINFO.gov. 11 If anyone want to see the detail, they can do 12 that. 13 MR. BEATTY: All the presentations will be 14 put on the advisory committee website so you 15 can eventually take a look at those. They 16 should be up within a week. 17 CHAIR ALTOM: That is it? 18 MS. NOE: That is it. 19 CHAIR ALTOM: Thank you, very much. A 20 couple of quick things before we move on. 21 We had another member come in. Ross, 22 would you like to take a moment and say hello 23 and introduce yourself and please use the mic. 24 We give you a test right off the bat. 25 MR. CAPON: I'm Ross Capon and I'm60

1 president of the National Association of 2 Railroad Passengers. 3 CHAIR ALTOM: Thank you, very much. 4 Another housekeeping piece. This room is 5 small. We have mics everywhere. We pick up a 6 lot of stuff and thus far we are pretty good. 7 Make sure to put your cellphones on silence, if 8 you have not done so already. If you need to 9 take a call, I believe there are small 10 conference rooms right behind me. And also 11 avoid discussions in the middle of the hallway 12 because it is kind of a congested area too. So 13 if we can move here in the back to have 14 conversations, that would be much appreciated. 15 Next on our agenda, which is up here on 16 the board, we have our Federal Advisory 17 Committee Act overview and have Lisa Fairhall 18 who will present that to us. Thank you. 19 MS. FAIRHALL: Good morning. How many of 20 you around the table have participated as 21 members on federal advisory committees in the 22 past? Can I see a show of hands? We have a 23 pretty good number of folks who have been 24 through this already and that is great because 25 I know we will all rely on you with your61

1 familiarity of the process to help this run 2 smoothly. 3 I will give a little overview. It will be 4 a recap for those who have already been through 5 the process and hopefully some new information 6 for those of you who are new to the process. 7 What is the Federal Advisory Committee 8 Act? FACA, as we like to call it, is the 9 statute that govern the statute and 10 organization of committees established by 11 federal agencies to obtain advice from 12 nonfederal individuals or entities. 13 The act was designed to fulfill two basic 14 purposes; to enhance public accountability of 15 advisory committees and it does this by 16 controlling the undue influence of special 17 interest by balancing committee membership, and 18 by ensuring that public access to committee 19 deliberations is maximized. 20 The second purpose behind the Federal 21 Advisory Committee Act was to reduce wasteful 22 expenditure on advisory committees and it does 23 it by laying out guidelines for overall 24 management of committee activities and manage 25 controls.62

1 At any given time there are over 700 2 federal advisory committees in operation in the 3 federal government with thousands of members 4 issuing tens of thousands of recommendations on 5 federal policy on grants and almost any issue 6 that you can imagine. 7 Federal Advisory Committees are absolutely 8 critical to bringing public input into forming 9 public policy decisions. You are truly 10 participating in your federal government when 11 you spend your time with us. And for that, as 12 folks have said, you are absolutely critical to 13 our process. And almost every federal agency 14 uses Federal Advisory Committees at some point 15 to help them improve the work they do for 16 citizens. 17 An advisory committee is any board, 18 committee, commission, conference, panel, task 19 force or other similar group that is 20 established by statute or established or 21 utilized by the President or agency official 22 for the purpose of obtaining advice or 23 recommendations and has at least one member who 24 is not a federal guy. And clearly here we have 25 a large representation of the public. You are63

1 nonfederal members. 2 So if a group has been established or 3 utilized by the federal government, has a 4 nonfederal member, even one, and provides 5 advice and recommendations to a federal 6 official, you are probably an advisory 7 committees and you are probably governed by the 8 Federal Advisory Committee Act. 9 In creating the membership of an advisory 10 committee, the agency has to make sure that the 11 membership is balanced relevant to the issue, 12 the committee will address and no registered 13 lobbyist may participate. 14 We are going to go over the guidelines 15 governing how the committee will conduct its 16 business a little later today when you take up 17 the protocols and operating procedures. I 18 think that is probably the next item on the 19 agenda. I wanted to give you a nutshell 20 overview. 21 Advisory committee members are required to 22 be open and announced to the public 15 days in 23 advance with very limited exception. Members 24 of the public may write public statements and 25 address the committees if agency guidelines64

1 permit. We have left time for public comment 2 this afternoon. 3 The agency approves the agenda for each 4 advisory committee meeting and authorizes the 5 committee to meet and it is our designated 6 federal officer, Paul Beatty, who will be 7 performing that function for us. 8 The DFO must attend all the meetings of 9 the committee and subcommittees. The DFO is 10 responsible for preparing minutes of each 11 meeting and making them available to the 12 public. 13 Advisory committees have no operational 14 authority. You exist solely to make 15 recommendations to the host federal agency. 16 And, as Marsha outlined earlier, that is what 17 your task will be through your consensus and 18 your reports. 19 Now you are all members. Each member is 20 appointed by and shares at the pleasure of the 21 Access Board. The appointment is personal to 22 the member and is not transferable. 23 As I mentioned earlier, the membership of 24 committees and subcommittees must be balanced 25 in terms of the point of view represented and65

1 the functions to be performed by the committee. 2 And as members you have responsibilities. 3 The short list is you are responsible to attend 4 and actively participate in all meetings, 5 either in person or teleconference, come to 6 meetings prepared and follow the agreed 7 operating procedures and keep the purpose of 8 the committee in mind, be aware of your role. 9 You are serving as representative members and 10 you must reflect the perspective of your 11 stakeholder group. 12 Predecisional nonpublic information of the 13 work of the committee cannot be released to the 14 public. If you have a question whether you can 15 share particular information relating to the 16 committee's work, please consult Paul or me or 17 other members of the Access Board staff. 18 As representatives, you are not federal 19 employees and therefore you are not subject to 20 the federal ethics laws. But often questions 21 come up about what you can do or can't do or 22 you can say or can't say. Please don't 23 hesitate to call me or Paul if you have any 24 questions. And since many of you have already 25 been through this, I think that is where I will66

1 stop, unless anybody has any questions. 2 CHAIR ALTOM: Thank you, very much. We 3 have our agenda up on the wall and I will read 4 it quickly again for those who may not be able 5 to read that. 6 We have gone through our welcome, our 7 overview of committee, our Federal Advisory 8 Committee Act, number 3. Number 4, review and 9 approval of protocol, potential new membership, 10 establish future meetings date, review of 11 current rail guidelines and public comment 12 periods. And for tomorrow from 9:00 to 3:00 we 13 will be doing committee work, administration, 14 new business, public comment period and we will 15 be adjourning. 16 The note at the very end is what I wanted 17 to address, "Lunch on your own at a time each 18 day favorable to committee work." We started 19 at 10:00 and it is a quarter to 12:00 now. 20 Entertain comments from the group. We can take 21 a break now for 10 or 15 minutes and come back 22 and work another hour and go to lunch. Or we 23 can do lunch now and come back and knock out 24 the afternoon from 1:00 to 5:00. Anybody have 25 preferences on how we would proceed? I have67

1 one. Ross, yeah? 2 MR. CAPON: Work another half hour or so 3 and then take lunch. 4 CHAIR ALTOM: Go to 12:30. Does anybody 5 need a break now or do we just keep hammering 6 on through? Feel free to go. 7 MS. BUNALES: Mr. Chairman, the CART says 8 she needs a break. 9 CHAIR ALTOM: Perfect. Let's take until 10 12:00. It is about 12 minutes and split the 11 middle of that. We will take a short 12-minute 12 break and give our CART services a break and we 13 will be back at 12:00 straight up. 14 (Whereupon, a recess was taken 15 from 11:48 a.m. to 12:03 pm 16 CHAIR ALTOM: If we could reconvene, I 17 would appreciate it. Just as a reminder, we 18 will work for another half hour and take our 19 lunch break at 12:30. 20 Thank you, all. What we have next on our 21 agenda is to look at the review and approval of 22 protocols and we are fortunate to have Rose who 23 will go over it with us today. And I will turn 24 it over to Rose. 25 MS. BUNALES: Okay. Before I go on, I68

1 just wanted to recognize on listening on the 2 phone is Frank Maldari, MTA Long Island. 3 CHAIR ALTOM: Welcome, Frank. 4 And what we will do here today with Rose 5 when we go through these, we just put them up 6 on the screen at the side and also emailed to 7 everyone in advance. We will look at our 8 mission, our interest represented on the 9 committee. And as we go through each of these 10 we can ask the group are these acceptable as a 11 group or do we need to have any revisions. 12 Having said that, Rose. 13 MS. BUNALES: Okay. Number one, Mission. 14 "The advisory committee will make 15 recommendations to the Access Board on revising 16 and updating the portion of the Americans with 17 Disabilities Act Accessibility Guidelines for 18 Transportation Vehicles that addresses 19 passenger vehicles that use fixed guideway 20 systems (e.g., rapid rail, light rail, commuter 21 rail, and intercity rail). The Board's 22 guidelines are codified at 36 CFR part 1192. 23 The guidelines contain minimum scoping and 24 technical criteria to ensure that 25 transportation vehicles are accessible to and69

1 usable by individuals with disabilities. The 2 guidelines apply to the acquisition of new, 3 used, and remanufactured transportation 4 vehicles, and the remanufacture of existing 5 transportation vehicles to the extent required 6 by regulations issued by the Department of 7 Transportation. The guidelines for 8 transportation vehicles using fixed guideway 9 systems have not been revised since established 10 in 1991, 56 FR 45530. The guidelines for 11 transportation vehicles that address buses, 12 over-the-road buses, and vans have been the 13 subject of another rulemaking project of the 14 Access Board, 75 FR 43748, July 26, 2010, and 15 these types of vehicles are not included in the 16 scope of this advisory committee work." 17 Any comment? 18 CHAIR ALTOM: Everybody clear? Perfect. 19 We will keep going. 20 MS. BUNALES: "Number 2: Interests 21 Represented on Committee. The committee is 22 comprised of organizations appointed by the 23 Chair of the Access Board to represent the 24 interests of groups affected by the revised and 25 updated guidelines, including manufacturers of70

1 transportation vehicles that use fixed guideway 2 systems, transportation providers that operate 3 fixed guideway systems, individuals with 4 disabilities, and other interested parties. 5 The Federal Railroad Administration has been 6 appointed as an ex-officio member of the 7 committee." 8 CHAIR ALTOM: Any comment or discussion on 9 point number 2? All in agreement? Three. 10 MS. BUNALES: "Number 3: Committee 11 Members and Alternate Members. Each 12 organization appointed to the committee will 13 designate a member and an alternate member to 14 represent the organization on the committee 15 subject to approval by the Chair of the Access 16 Board." Discussion? 17 "Number 4: Additional Committee Members. 18 Additional committee members may be added to 19 represent a stakeholder group which is not 20 adequately represented and/or to achieve 21 balance of points of view among committee 22 membership. Additional committee members may 23 only be added during the first meeting of the 24 committee. Chairperson of the Access Board may 25 consider adding additional members 1) that71

1 receive the vote of three quarters of the 2 advisory committee membership, or 2) for 3 committee balance. Additional committee 4 members added through this process shall begin 5 service upon appointment by the Chairperson of 6 the Access Board." 7 Comment? 8 <<<: I have a question and, that is, does 9 the second sentence, "may only be added during 10 the first meeting of the committee," does that 11 modify the entire paragraph or is the intent of 12 the last two sentences like a new separate 13 paragraph? 14 MR. BEATTY: It applies to the whole 15 paragraph. This is the one shot. 16 <<<: So whatever means the one shot? 17 MR. BEATTY: Today is the day for those 18 who have come to us. 19 And another comment I was going to make, 20 one of the criteria that Lisa mentioned, all 21 members have to be certified they are not a 22 federally registered lobbyist, which everyone 23 here at the table by various means have sent 24 me. 25 Because some people submitted nominations72

1 many months ago and it is possible to have 2 become a federally registered lobbyist, 3 committee members there is a form you need to 4 fill out. The form is basically for the 5 committee members certification of not being a 6 federally registered lobbyist. It quotes from 7 the President's memorandum and it says, "I 8 certify I'm not a federally registered lobbyist 9 and agree not to become a federally registered 10 lobbyist while I serve." And it asks you to 11 put in the name you represent. 12 If you become a federally registered 13 lobbyist, you are free to do that, just that 14 you have to resign your membership. The 15 organization cannot just automatically give 16 somebody a stop, unless of course your 17 alternate jumps up. 18 If you take on that duty, federally 19 registered lobbyist, your organization has to 20 appoint somebody new. If it is not the 21 alternate, we have to go through the process of 22 getting our Chair of the Access Board's 23 approval. 24 For a paper chain, make sure if your 25 alternate is in the room, make sure they filled73

1 this out. For those I have not given you a 2 blank copy to fill out, I will come to you or 3 come to me. 4 Later when we talk about subcommittees, I 5 have another spiel to give, but I will wait 6 until we give that part of the protocol. As 7 soon as you fill it out, give it to me or to 8 Rose. 9 CHAIR ALTOM: Additional comments on 10 Number 4? 11 MR. HUNTER: I noticed the text of this 12 section is different than the operating 13 procedures that were sent out by email sometime 14 in the last couple of months in preparation of 15 this meeting. At least the version I have does 16 not have point number 2 that says, "For 17 committee balance." 18 I'm just wondering what it was that 19 generated the revision to the proposed 20 procedures. 21 CHAIR ALTOM: The one you got was for the 22 October meeting and obviously in reviewing it, 23 we said whoops. In order to form the committee 24 there are stakeholder groups and, secondly, we 25 have to assure there is proper balance and we74

1 have to let the committee know those are the 2 two criteria. 3 You have seven individuals that will look 4 for membership. If they get appointed, the 5 Board has to make the analysis "is this 6 proper." If only one is added, we have to make 7 sure there is proper balance. We have to make 8 sure one group does not have 1/3 of the 9 committee. If this were an advisory committee 10 and they were all made up of manufacturers, 11 from the public's perspective, that would not 12 be a proper balance. 13 MR. HUNTER: And that makes sense. That 14 is to a large degree what I assumed. I guess 15 what I assume, since additional members may 16 only be added at this meeting today or 17 tomorrow, how would the committee deal with an 18 imbalance if one is created if we only have 19 today or tomorrow to have new members? 20 MR. BEATTY: This is the way we plan. We 21 have a vote this afternoon -- mic is coming and 22 going. We plan to have a vote this afternoon 23 on the seven. Right now the protocol, which 24 you can change -- I mean this is your operating 25 procedure. Some things you cannot change, like75

1 the mission, sorry, that is done. But many 2 other parts of the protocol you can change. So 3 right now the draft protocol says 3/4 committee 4 vote to become -- first stage of becoming a 5 member. And then we present it to our Chair of 6 the Board for approval. 7 Now, we don't know what the outcome of the 8 vote is going to be. We don't know if all 9 seven are going to be appointed or none or 10 three. So we need to first see what the result 11 is and then discuss the outcome. And that 12 would be occurring after the meeting was 13 staffed. 14 So it may be tomorrow we would tell you 15 the outcome or it may mean there is another 16 vote. We are not really sure. Because we need 17 to know who crosses the 3/4 line. Our goal is 18 proper balance. 19 Yes, Marsha? 20 MS. MAZZ: Just one thing in response to 21 what I think was the intent of the question. 22 There will be ways for people who are not on 23 this committee to participate should this 24 committee develop subcommittees. So all is not 25 lost if someone is not appointed because if76

1 this group does break into subcommittees, we 2 generally welcome anyone to participate in a 3 subcommittee. 4 MR. BEATTY: Remember, you have to agree 5 to these protocols. We put it in here as a 6 draft. This is your one place. 7 Now, think of it from the Board's 8 perspective here. We say we are going to be 9 meeting sometimes and if somebody new shows up 10 that has not been involved in the process, you 11 know, our Chair would be hesitant to have them 12 join. Not impossible. 13 We advertised this. We received all the 14 organizations here, submitted their nominations 15 in the time period and we made our selections 16 based on the nominations received and we 17 started the process. 18 We are very concerned at some point 19 Meeting 3 some new organization comes out of 20 the blue and wants to join and they don't have, 21 shall we say, the discussion background that 22 some of the deliberations went through. 23 This protocol is up to you. So we are 24 putting in there this meeting today is one that 25 somebody can submit nominations.77

1 If you want to change it, that is up to 2 the committee. 3 MR. HUNTER: I have been part of a number 4 of committees that have developed standards, 5 many of which have been ultimately incorporated 6 into rulemaking. So consistency and the makeup 7 of the committee throughout the process is very 8 important. It has also been important to allow 9 the committee to change and evolve to reflect 10 the true makeup of the committee to support the 11 mission. 12 Maybe one thing to consider is future 13 committees may be considered for future 14 membership if deemed appropriate by the 15 Chairperson, or something of that effect. 16 Since it's the Chair that has the role of 17 approving the appointment of the new members, 18 perhaps it gives us a little bit of flexibility 19 if we do end up with an imbalance or if we do 20 find we have a little bit of shift in need as 21 we work forward in the standard development. 22 If the chairperson decides that bringing 23 someone in is appropriate and beneficial to the 24 committee, this would give them some 25 flexibility to do so. Just my thought.78

1 MR. BEATTY: Well, it's the committee's 2 decision. It is not the Access Board protocol; 3 it is your procedures for operations. 4 So, Dennis? I'm sorry. 5 MR. CANNON: I just want to reiterate 6 something that Marsha said and that is in my 7 experience, both being a DFO for some of these 8 committees and participating on them. That not 9 being a member of the actual committee itself 10 is not a block to participating. And sometimes 11 when subcommittees are created which people, 12 who are not on the committee, can join. 13 I have done, sometimes, the majority of 14 the work. So it is not necessary for you to be 15 on the committee to have your voice heard and 16 to have good input. 17 CHAIR ALTOM: Thank you. 18 Justin? 19 MR. VONASHEK: What is the current 20 committee balance right now? Do we know that? 21 Is it leaning one way or the other? 22 MR. BEATTY: We think it is balanced, that 23 one group has no more than roughly a third. So 24 adding new people depending on who is 25 added --we want to evaluate and let you know79

1 what we consider. 2 MR. HART: I just want to reiterate, the 3 Access Board does extensive outreach to a 4 variety of groups. I have personally 5 outreached to some of you in this room. I was 6 personally surprised that a couple of 7 organizations did not put their names in. That 8 was surprising from my perspective. So balance 9 is key and I will go with what the committee 10 decides. Please know that we do extensive 11 outreach. 12 I know my role. We publicize our needs 13 and we let our members know on the steering 14 committee. 15 CHAIR ALTOM: Thank you, Chris. 16 Any other comment on Point Number 4? 17 MS. BUNALES: So what are we doing with 18 Mr. -- is it Hunter? to add additional -- 19 CHAIR ALTOM: We have not decided yet. 20 Stan, are you making that kind of in a 21 form of a motion, that we add the additional 22 language there that may be considered at a 23 later date? 24 MR. HUNTER: Yes, Mr. Chairman. I think 25 there should -- I think I would like to make a80

1 motion that the language be revised to say that 2 the Chairperson has the ability to bring 3 forward additional members for consideration by 4 the group for membership of the advisory 5 committee if deemed necessary for balance. I 6 would like to propose that as a motion to give 7 us a little bit of flexibility to adjust the 8 makeup of this group after this meeting today 9 and tomorrow. 10 CHAIR ALTOM: Thank you, very much. 11 Do we have a motion? Do we have a second? 12 MR. SAUCIER: I certainly second that. 13 CHAIR ALTOM: Stan and Stan. 14 MR. SAUCIER: There are probably only two 15 of us in the country and we are in the same 16 room. 17 (Chorus of Laughter) 18 CHAIR ALTOM: We have a motion and a 19 second. Any further discussion? 20 We are looking at a semantic issue. Would 21 it be "applicants" or "members"? 22 MS. GOLDEN: I'm moving around as usual. 23 I don't get the motion. Either the Chair 24 appoints them and then they are a member, in 25 which case I don't know about the language of81

1 consideration by the committee, or the Chair 2 has the ability to forward additional 3 applicants for consideration by the committee 4 and the committee can appoint them. 5 It seems like if today -- I would hope 6 this whole voting thing is tomorrow. But 7 anyway, if at this meeting to add a member 8 requires a vote, a high vote, right, a super, 9 super majority I don't know why future 10 additions would also require the same. The 11 language would be, "The Chair has the ability 12 to bring forth an applicant for consideration 13 to become a member." If I'm mixed up, let me 14 know. 15 MR. HUNTER: I think, Marilyn, you are 16 correct. That was my intention. The 17 Chairperson would be able to bring forward 18 applicants that would then be considered for 19 appointment to the group, by the group under 20 the same 3/4 of the advisory committee 21 membership. Gives us the flexibility to do 22 that beyond meeting today or tomorrow. 23 MR. BEATTY: By "chairperson" you are 24 referring to the chairperson of the Board or 25 the chairperson of the advisory committee?82

1 Ideally, I think we would like the process 2 or at least the Chair of our Board would like, 3 if the committee feels an applicant warrants 4 inclusion, that the Chair of the Board would 5 like to make the decision on whether they 6 should join, keeping in mind our 7 responsibilities under the FACA act. 8 So maybe as a point of discussion, is that 9 the Chair of the committee can bring an 10 applicant -- somebody comes to the Chair and 11 says, "I think I should join." The Chair 12 thinks about it, meaning Billy, he thinks, 13 "Okay, there is a good argument here." He 14 presents the person to the full committee and 15 the full committee makes a vote. And assuming 16 you cross whatever line you want to make, 3/4, 17 then that person, the staff would bring the 18 name to the Board Chair for ultimate approval. 19 MR. HUNTER: So the Board Chair would make 20 the determination whether the additional 21 applicant would be appointed to the committee? 22 MR. BEATTY: Just like we did for this 23 committee. Staff made recommendations to our 24 Board Chair. There is going to be seven people 25 voted on. All seven may get 3/4 of the vote.83

1 And then we have to go through our Board Chair. 2 Because under FACA, I believe it's the head of 3 the agency that appoints somebody, not the 4 committee members or Billy. 5 So I guess it is more the process and -- 6 sounds like people want to be able to provide 7 new members to the committee. Is that a sense 8 that is correct? Okay. Marsha? 9 MS. MAZZ: It is the Board's 10 responsibility to maintain balance in 11 compliance with the Federal Advisory Committee 12 Act. So ultimately I think the responsibility 13 for appointment lies with the Board. 14 But the Chair would, obviously, seriously 15 consider any recommendations this group would 16 make and would make every effort to accommodate 17 them. 18 MR. BEATTY: But I'm assuming our Chair 19 would want to let this group make the decision 20 first -- 21 MS. MAZZ: But the decision is a decision 22 to recommend to the Board Chair, not the 23 decision to appoint. 24 MR. BEATTY: Correct. So sounds like 25 people want to be able to add new members.84

1 So the question is, how is a 2 recommendation brought before this committee 3 that makes a decision and sends the 4 recommendation they desire on to the Access 5 Board's Chair? 6 MR. CAPOZZI: And how often. 7 MR. BEATTY: And how often as opposed to 8 just once, as shown here. 9 MR. WEISMAN: I think that, you know, this 10 new member issue is a matter of balance. So it 11 would be a matter of the Chair determining the 12 balance needs to be creating or reestablished 13 and that somebody that they may already know or 14 that any member of the committee would be able 15 to suggest might meet that criteria. And, of 16 course, I think the committee Chair would need 17 to make the determination this person actually 18 meets this criteria and then present it to the 19 vote. 20 CHAIR ALTOM: To the committee and then 21 back to the Chair of the Access Board? 22 MR. WEISMAN: Right. How many times have 23 we actually sat down and agreed to have a vote 24 on something. It could take months to do that, 25 if we don't do that in a process when we know85

1 there are people missing or -- not missing or, 2 you know, resigned or unable to continue with 3 the committee, and needs to be reestablished. 4 At that point a message would need to go out to 5 say we were considering new members of this 6 particular category in order to rebalance the 7 representation and whatever procedure you use 8 from that point forward. 9 MR. BEATTY: I was going to say to speed 10 us up and also because we are getting near 11 lunch, I got a sense here that the committee 12 wants some methodology to include new members. 13 So how about staff of the Access Board work on 14 paragraph 4 and bring it back to you so we can 15 move on from there. 16 MR. HUNTER: I think that is acceptable. 17 Thank you, Paul. 18 CHAIR ALTOM: Are you agreeable to rescind 19 my motion? 20 MR. HUNTER: I'm agreeable to rescind my 21 motion pending rewriting of Section 4 by Access 22 Board staff. 23 CHAIR ALTOM: We will have this brought to 24 us later as the staff will work on that. We 25 move to Number 5, Committee Member86

1 Responsibility. 2 MS. BUNALES: "Number 5: Committee member 3 responsibilities. Committee members will 4 attend committee meetings, participate fully 5 and openly in discussions, exchange information 6 to the fullest extent possible, consider 7 alternatives, and make a good faith effort to 8 reach consensus on recommendations for the 9 revision and updated of the guidelines. When 10 alternate members attend committee meetings, 11 they have the same responsibilities as 12 committee members." 13 CHAIR ALTOM: Delete the "need." 14 MS. BUNALES: Who wrote this thing? 15 (Chorus of Laughter) 16 MR. BEATTY: I did. 17 CHAIR ALTOM: Any comment or questions of 18 Number 5? Hearing none. 19 MS. BUNALES: "Number 6: Attendance at 20 meetings. Committee members should attend 21 committee meetings in person. If committee 22 members cannot attend committee meetings in 23 person, they may attend by teleconference. 24 Alternate members are encouraged to attend 25 committee meetings. If an alternate member87

1 does not attend committee meetings, the 2 committee member should brief the alternate 3 member on the committee discussions. If an 4 organization is not represented by a committee 5 member or an alternate member at two 6 consecutive committee meetings, the Chair of 7 the Access Board may remove the organization 8 and its members from the committee." 9 CHAIR ALTOM: Straightforward. Comments? 10 Carry on. 11 MS. BUNALES: "Technical advisors: 12 Committee members may be accompanied by 13 technical advisors. Technical advisors may 14 participate in committee discussions. If the 15 discussion becomes unwieldy, any committee 16 member may request that technical advisors be 17 allowed to speak only if permitted by the Chair 18 of the committee." 19 CHAIR ALTOM: Marilyn, is your hand up or 20 you're thinking with your hand? Okay. 21 MS. BUNALES: "Number 8: Designated 22 Federal Official, DFO. In accordance with 41 23 CFR 102-3.120, the DFO must, for both the full 24 committee and subcommittees, approve the call 25 of the meetings, approve the agenda, and attend88

1 the meetings." 2 CHAIR ALTOM: That is CFR. So we are 3 good. Moving on. 4 MS. BUNALES: "Number 9: Committee Chair. 5 The Chair of the committee will consult with 6 the DFO regarding meeting agendas, will chair 7 committee meetings as directed by Board chair, 8 and (per 41 CFR 102-3.165) will certify the 9 accuracy of the minutes of committee meetings 10 within 90 calendar days of the meeting." 11 CHAIR ALTOM: Awesome. 12 MR. CAPOZZI: Just add before Board Chair. 13 CHAIR ALTOM: Question, Dennis? 14 MR. CANNON: I have a question. Are you 15 referring to -- I'm assuming you are going to 16 use the CART. Are we talking about real 17 minutes versus meeting summaries? I mean, they 18 are different. We usually in the past have 19 done minute -- I mean, meeting summaries, which 20 explain the points, as opposed to all the 21 motions made by John and seconded by... how 22 detailed? 23 MR. BEATTY: You will see them when you 24 see the draft to look at. 25 MS. MAZZ: Dennis, it will be a summary.89

1 CHAIR ALTOM: Any other comments or 2 questions? 3 MS. BUNALES: Committee Meetings, Number 4 10. "Committee meetings will be conducted in 5 accordance with Federal Advisory Committee 6 Management Regulations at 41 CFR Part 102-3, 7 Subpart D. Committee meetings are expected to 8 be held in the Access Board Conference Room. 9 Notice of committee meetings will be published 10 in the Federal Register at least 15 calendar 11 days prior to each meeting. Committee meetings 12 will be open to the public. During each day of 13 committee meetings, there will be time for 14 public comment. Persons attending committee 15 meetings are requested to refrain from using 16 perfume, cologne, and other fragrances for the 17 comfort of other participants." 18 CHAIR ALTOM: All in agreement? 19 MS. BUNALES: "Number 11: Meeting 20 Agendas. The DFO will prepare agendas for 21 committee meetings in consultation with the 22 Chair of the committee. A summary of the 23 agenda topics to be discussed at each committee 24 meeting will be included in the Federal 25 Register notice announcing the meeting."90

1 CHAIR ALTOM: Keep going. 2 MS. BUNALES: "Number 12: Agenda 3 Materials. Committee members should submit 4 agenda materials in MS Word format to the DFO 5 at least five business days before committee 6 meetings. Agenda materials will be posted on 7 the committee web page in advance of the 8 meeting. Agenda materials will be provided in 9 accessible formats for committee members and 10 alternate members who request such formats. 11 Committee members who handout written materials 12 at committee meetings shall provide a 13 sufficient number of copies for committee 14 members, including accessible formats for 15 committee members and alternate members who 16 request such formats. 17 "Number 13: Quorum. A quorum of two 18 thirds of the committee membership is required 19 to make recommendations on behalf of the full 20 committee. If a committee member is absent and 21 an alternate member is present at a meeting, 22 the alternate member is counted for purposes of 23 establishing a quorum. In the absence of a 24 quorum, the committee may meet for the purpose 25 of discussion, but may not make recommendations91

1 on behalf of the full committee. 2 "Number 14: Minutes. The DFO will 3 prepare minutes of committee meetings. The 4 committee will review the minutes at its next 5 meeting and the Chair of the committee will 6 certify the accuracy of the minutes. Where the 7 next meeting is more than 90 days, the approval 8 of the minutes will be conducted by email. An 9 email will be sent to committee members (and 10 alternates) who attended the meeting. 'A 11 number of' business days will be allowed for 12 review and comment. Committee members must 13 respond supporting the minutes or noting 14 corrections. Once a majority of committee 15 members approve the minutes, the minutes will 16 be considered approved by the committee. 17 Approved minutes of committee meetings will be 18 posted on the committee web page." 19 And there is a blank before "business 20 days." 21 MR. BEATTY: This was all because having 22 Billy certify minutes within 90 days. Of 23 course a lot of this was written back when we 24 were going to be in October. So in those 25 circumstances -- and we have not yet planned92

1 out the next three meetings. If we don't have 2 more than 90 days between meetings, that is not 3 a problem. If we have more than 90 days, the 4 question is: How much time is a reasonable 5 amount of time for committee members to receive 6 the draft minutes, make any comments and 7 respond back and move toward approving them via 8 the email process? 9 So that is why we have terms of number of 10 days. Are we talking about two weeks? Five 11 days? And essentially what is good for 12 committee members juggling other 13 responsibilities. 14 And we talked about minute summary. 15 Obviously we would like as much detail in the 16 minutes because going through the transcript is 17 time typical for two days. 18 So everybody is thinking of lunch, I can 19 see that. So five days. 20 <<<: Five business days seems reasonable. 21 MR. HUNTER: Ten business days. Five days 22 that is one week. How about 10 business days? 23 MR. BEATTY: Ten business days? No? 24 (Simultaneous Discussion) 25 MR. BEATTY: We have some people like93

1 five, some people like 10. 2 <<<: Seven. 3 (Chorus of Laughter) 4 MR. BEATTY: Seven business days? 5 MR. SLAUGHTER: I think the concern I 6 sense from Stanton is one of my own. For those 7 of us involved in programs with our companies 8 that send us away for five days at a time, five 9 business days can be difficult. If you can 10 extend seven business days, 10 would be ideal, 11 but that is my opinion. 12 <<<: I support 10 days. 13 <<<: Seven. 14 CHAIR ALTOM: I think by consensus I think 15 we have 10. Everybody is nodding in agreement. 16 Ten days, perfect. Thank you. 17 MS. BUNALES: Number 14 now does say "10 18 business days will be allowed for review and 19 comment." 20 "Number 15: Subcommittees. The committee 21 may establish subcommittees to discuss matters 22 within the scope of the committee's mission 23 subject to approval by the DFO. Subcommittees 24 will report their recommendations to the full 25 committee for discussion. Persons who are not94

1 committee members or alternate members may 2 participate as subcommittee members. 3 Subcommittee members will be appointed by the 4 Chair of the full committee in consultation 5 with the DFO. Subcommittees will be chaired by 6 a full committee member selected by the 7 subcommittee. Subcommittees may meet between 8 full committee meetings or at full committee 9 meetings. Subcommittee chairs will submit 10 subcommittee meeting schedules and agendas to 11 the DFO for approval, if meetings are scheduled 12 in advance of full committee meetings or 13 outside the dates of the full committee 14 meetings. Notice of subcommittee meetings will 15 be published in advance of meetings on the 16 committee web page when subcommittees meet 17 between full committee meetings, and in the 18 Federal Register when subcommittees are 19 scheduled to meet during the dates of the full 20 committee meetings. If a subcommittee meets by 21 teleconference, the teleconference number will 22 be posted on the committee web page in advance 23 of the meeting and the teleconference will be 24 open to the public. The same procedures that 25 apply to committee agenda materials will apply95

1 to subcommittee agenda materials. The DFO or 2 alternate DFO must (per 41 CFR 102-3.120) be 3 present at subcommittee meetings." 4 MR. BEATTY: This doesn't apply to 5 committee members and alternates. Members of 6 the public who are not federal employees, if 7 you plan to participate -- Billy has said we 8 will be running an open meeting. So if you 9 plan to participate either at the full 10 committee or in the subcommittees, which the 11 protocols allow pretty much open participation, 12 there is a form back there you need to sign 13 basically saying I'm not a federally registered 14 lobbyist. You need to give that to me or Rose. 15 So if you are out there in the audience and 16 plan to participate, that is for you. 17 MR. CANNON: I have a question. It says, 18 "The DFO or alternate DFO shall participate in 19 the subcommittee meetings." I don't know who 20 the alternate is. But at any rate, that 21 implies you can only have a couple of 22 subcommittees. 23 MR. BEATTY: Obviously there is a limit to 24 how many subcommittees conceptually the Access 25 Board can support. Right now I have been96

1 designated by the Chair of the Board to be the 2 DFO. 3 However, if we have two subcommittees 4 conceptually or three running at the same time, 5 depending on how you want to address the issue, 6 the Chair of the Access Board can appoint 7 other, say, alternate DFO. It would be one or 8 the other, if we break into subcommittees that 9 are meeting at the same time. 10 CHAIR ALTOM: Any other questions? 11 Concerns regarding alternate DFOs? Explanation 12 the director can appoint additional if 13 necessary. So thank you. We will move on. 14 MS. BUNALES: "Number 16: Caucuses. 15 Groups of committee members may caucus in 16 private to discuss their positions. Positions 17 discussed during caucuses are confidential and 18 may not be disclosed outside the caucus unless 19 authorized by the caucus members. Breaks 20 during committee meetings for caucuses should 21 be held to a minimum. Caucuses are not 22 required to be open to the public." 23 CHAIR ALTOM: Anybody have any comments or 24 concerns? Hearing none. 25 MS. BUNALES: "Number 17: Final Committee97

1 Report. The committee will prepare a final 2 report containing its recommendations. The 3 recommendations should be based on a consensus 4 of the committee to the extent possible. 5 Committee members should ensure that the 6 organizations they represent agree with the 7 recommendations in the final committee report. 8 If an organization does not agree with any of 9 the recommendations in the final committee 10 report, the organization may submit a minority 11 report stating its position on the matter. 12 Ex-officio members are not required to agree 13 with the recommendations in the final committee 14 report or submit a minority report. The Access 15 Board will consider all recommendations in the 16 final report and any minority reports when 17 developing the proposed rule for the 18 guidelines. " 19 CHAIR ALTOM: Okay. Looks good. 20 MS. BUNALES: Number -- 21 CHAIR ALTOM: One second. My apologies. 22 I missed Dennis. 23 MR. CANNON: This is really a linguistic 24 question. It is worded that if an organization 25 does not agree with any of the recommendations,98

1 it can file a minority report and that implies 2 that they don't agree -- they disagree with the 3 entire report. 4 So it should be something like with one or 5 more recommendations they can file minority 6 reports because an organization may think the 7 whole report is great, except for some small 8 part. You don't want to imply they have to 9 disagree with the report before they can file a 10 minority report. 11 CHAIR ALTOM: Awesome. Did everyone hear 12 that? 13 Just to recap what Dennis was saying, if 14 an organization has just one piece of the 15 report that they don't agree with, they can 16 file a written minority report on that, as 17 opposed to the whole paper. 18 Is everyone in agreement with 19 recommendations and the changing of just slight 20 wording there? 21 MS. BUNALES: You have to repeat it. 22 MR. CAPOZZI: Get rid of the S. 23 CHAIR ALTOM: One or more. 24 MR. CAPOZZI: We will do it during lunch 25 time.99

1 CHAIR ALTOM: Everyone in agreement with 2 that recommendation to change the word? I'm 3 seeing consensus. Awesome. Thank you. 4 Everyone is in agreement or ready to go to 5 lunch right now. 6 MS. BUNALES: "Number 18: Committee Web 7 page. The Access Board will maintain a web 8 page on the committee's activities. Committee 9 meeting notices, agendas, agenda materials, 10 minutes, draft recommendations and reports, and 11 the final committee report and any minority 12 reports will be posted on the web page. In 13 general, anything submitted to the full 14 committee will be posted. Subcommittee meeting 15 notices and agendas will also be posted, and 16 when directed by the subcommittee chair, agenda 17 materials." 18 CHAIR ALTOM: We all look in agreement. 19 MS. BUNALES: "Number 19: Media 20 announcements. Committee members may not make 21 announcement to or hold discussions with the 22 media unless authorized by the DFO." 23 Number 20, last one: "Discontinue if 24 Unproductive. The Access Board may discontinue 25 committee meetings at any time if the committee100

1 meetings are unproductive." 2 <<<: I disagree with that. We just keep 3 going. 4 (Chorus of Laughter) 5 MR. HUNTER: Wouldn't be the first time. 6 MR. HART: And just to be clear, you 7 cannot bribe me into it, or technically we are 8 bribeable with lunch. 9 (Chorus of Laughter) 10 CHAIR ALTOM: Awesome. Thank you, very 11 much. And thank you, Rose. 12 MR. CANNON: I have a question. This is 13 related both to the committee web page and the 14 earlier thing about additional materials or I 15 forget what the wording is or things added to 16 the -- materials added to the agenda. 17 Can any member, for example, submit 18 something that he or she wants to have 19 discussed by the committee? 20 MR. BEATTY: You have to give it to me 21 within five days -- 22 MR. CANNON: Same process. It is not like 23 it is restricted to only the Chair or anybody 24 who wants -- 25 MR. BEATTY: Right. Point out, to some101

1 degree, it is up to the Chair for the agenda. 2 If you want to make a presentation on something 3 the Chair would decide whether it fits in the 4 agenda. 5 MR. CANNON: I have a short list of things 6 I would like fixed that I would like to show 7 him. 8 MR. CAPOZZI: Short? 9 CHAIR ALTOM: Thank you, very much. We 10 are almost at the top of the hour, so having 11 been gracious enough to indulge me, went 12 further than I anticipated. As a reward I will 13 give you an extra five minutes for lunch. We 14 will take a recess for lunch and meet back here 15 at 2:00 and we will pick up looking at 16 potential new memberships and time for those 17 folks to give us their presentations. So back 18 at 2:00. 19 (Whereupon, at 12:55 p.m. to 2:12 p.m. the 20 Committee adjourned for the luncheon 21 recess.) 22 CHAIR ALTOM: Thank you all for coming 23 back. I know a lot of times when folks go to 24 lunch, it is easy not to come back so I am glad 25 you all did.102

1 While some of us went to lunch, some of 2 us -- not me, but Paul, sitting beside me, and 3 Rose, went back over the protocols. I will 4 turn it back to Paul. 5 MR. BEATTY: I'm going to point out what 6 we agreed to. 7 Number 17, we added if the organization 8 does not agree with one or more of the 9 recommendations. That was recommended by 10 Dennis Cannon. 11 And go to Number 14, minutes. Every place 12 in the document it says "minutes" we will add 13 the words "summary." Obviously there were 14 typos identifiable like those. 15 In Number 14 we added "within 10 business 16 days" to look at the draft email contained in 17 the summary minutes and reply. 18 And then if we go to Number 4, this is how 19 you add new members. If members got -- 20 additional committee members is still the 21 topic. Additional committee members may be 22 added to represent a stakeholder group that is 23 not accurately represented and to achieve 24 balance point of view among committee 25 membership. Upon approval, 3/4 of membership,103

1 additional members may be recommended to the 2 Access Board Chairperson for membership. 3 Committee members added through the process 4 should begin service upon appointment. 5 Right now the protocol is anybody can 6 join. Of course it is subject to starting 7 point of 3/4 of this committee here. If at 8 some point in the future people are just coming 9 out of the weeds and there is too much time 10 being sucked up by the committee evaluating 11 that, the committee is always free in the 12 future to change the protocol. So if there has 13 to be a further restriction or something added, 14 there can be. 15 We think this addresses your concern. The 16 next meeting someone can petition to join and 17 we would go through the same process the seven 18 individuals are doing today, and recommendation 19 to Access Board Chair and the Chair does the 20 final approval. 21 Is everybody happy with this? At this 22 point I guess I will turn it back to our Chair. 23 And staff would like a voice vote or formal 24 approval that it is in the record, the protocol 25 as amended is the accepted protocol for the104

1 committee at this point. 2 CHAIR ALTOM: So looking around the room, 3 do we accept these? Do we need a formal motion 4 or accept by consensus? I see heads nodding. 5 Looks good. We will adopt the two consensus. 6 Thank you, Paul, Rose, for working through 7 lunch. 8 Next on the agenda are potential new 9 membership. There are seven organizations that 10 each have a few moments to speak to us. I 11 would like each one to come up here and have 12 five minutes or so to talk. I have a list of 13 order, the American Public Transportation 14 Association will kick us off followed by the 15 Hearing Loss Association of America and then 16 New Jersey Transit, New York City Transit, 17 Q'Straint, Siemens and Washington Metropolitan 18 Transit Authority. 19 After they have their opportunities to 20 speak, we have a ballot we will be passing 21 around that you can vote a yea or nay on. We 22 will collect the ballots and tally. We will 23 take a break after we do the voting and come 24 back and give you the results. 25 Dennis, first off.105

1 MR. CANNON: Since there is only a short 2 time to give a presentation, the issue is 3 really the interest that they are representing. 4 I would like to make sure they address right 5 upfront how their interest is not represented 6 currently on the committee. 7 CHAIR ALTOM: Perfect. I like it. For 8 those who didn't hear that, we would like you 9 to say how your involvement on the committee 10 would add to it and not represented at the 11 moment. 12 MS. BUNALES: Mr. Chairman, I want you to 13 know I do have committee member Uwe Rutenberg 14 on the line and Ed Steinfeld on the line and 15 both lines are not muted and David Knight, 16 Department of Justice. Glenn Millis, WMATA, 17 and Marshall Lucier Q'Straint and Frank 18 Maldari, Long Island Transit. 19 CHAIR ALTOM: Off the bat, start with the 20 American Public Transportation Association. 21 MR. JOSEPH: Good afternoon, ladies and 22 gentlemen and Mr. Chairman. I appreciate the 23 opportunity to be here and to petition the 24 committee for a position on the Access Board. 25 My name is Charles Joseph, senior program106

1 manager for the American Public Transportation 2 Association. 3 APTA is a nonprofit international 4 association of more than 1,500 public and 5 private member organizations, engaged in the 6 areas of bus, paratransit, light rail, 7 streetcars, commuter rail, subways, waterborne 8 services and intercity and high-speed passenger 9 rail. This includes: transit systems; 10 planning, design, construction and finance 11 firms; product and service providers; academic 12 institutions; transit associations and state 13 departments of transportation. APTA members 14 serve the public interest by providing safe, 15 efficient and economical transit services and 16 products. More than 90 percent of persons using 17 public transportation in the United States and 18 Canada are served by APTA members. 19 APTA's mission is to strengthen and 20 improve public transportation. APTA serves and 21 leads its diverse membership through standards 22 development, safety advocacy, innovation and 23 information sharing. 24 APTA Standards and Recommended Practices 25 have become an important program activity for107

1 the public transportation industry. APTA, 2 through its policy and planning committees is 3 responsible for developing and promulgating 4 standards and recommended practices and has 5 played a major role in creating active working 6 structures within the organization focused on 7 the development of standards. Hundreds of 8 industry volunteers serving on numerous working 9 committees and have developed hundreds of 10 standards for bus, rail transit and commuter 11 rail operations, maintenance, procurement and 12 Intelligent Transportation Systems (ITS). These 13 consensus-based standards are leading to safer 14 and more accessible systems, improved 15 performance and lower costs. The program is 16 continuing to expand into many new areas of 17 critical importance to the industry. APTA is 18 very active as an industry representative with 19 the Rail Safety Advisory Committee, and served 20 on the Access Board's Public Rights-of-Way 21 Access Advisory Committee from 1999 - 2000. 22 Our members believe that the current 23 regulatory process for a 'Finding of Equivalent 24 Facilitation' appears to be showing an uneven 25 application across projects. Revision of the108

1 regulation is needed to take new technology 2 into account, to provide a clear statement of 3 the ideal level of required accessibility 4 defined by the Access Board and to provide a 5 clear process for addressing appropriate 6 variances. Such clarifications are critical to 7 the future success of low-floor modern 8 streetcar and light-rail vehicle technology. 9 As an example, streetcar vehicle 10 technology has evolved substantially since the 11 adoption of the ADA regulations in 1991. The 12 development of low-floor light rail and 13 streetcar vehicle technology represents a 14 paradigm shift in transit accessibility that 15 has dramatically improved accessibility for 16 individuals with varying disabilities. 17 One of our committees that is very 18 interested in the work of this advisory 19 committee is the Streetcar Subcommittee. They 20 are composed of experts in operation, design 21 and planning of streetcar systems and who have 22 been instrumental in developing streetcar 23 systems around the country, and has published 24 guideline documents, reports and technical 25 papers and are supportive of efforts of this109

1 Advisory Committee to provide the best possible 2 methods to address ADA needs. APTA offers its 3 expert resources to the Access Board as it 4 considers the critically needed modifications 5 to Subpart D, incorporating improved 6 accessibility offered by low-floor vehicle 7 technology. 8 APTA has already made significant strides 9 to guide the development of streetcar systems 10 that help avoid poor design practices, improve 11 access and streamline system procurement, as 12 demonstrated in the 2013 published document, 13 "Modern Streetcar Vehicle Guideline". 14 APTA encourages the Advisory Committee to 15 partner with subject matter experts of the APTA 16 Streetcar Subcommittee to address the most 17 effective means of updating the ADA 18 accessibility regulations. 19 Representing our members, we believe APTA 20 can provide and play an important role on this 21 committee and look forward to working with you. 22 Thank you. 23 CHAIR ALTOM: Thank you. 24 I think I will make a judgment call here. 25 Anybody have any questions they would like to110

1 ask of Mr. Joseph? Dennis. 2 MR. CANNON: I have a hearing problem so I 3 don't always catch it. I didn't catch at the 4 beginning, what is your background. 5 MR. JOSEPH: I'm the senior program 6 manager for APTA. Overall the rail programs 7 where we develop standards and recommended 8 practices for the industry. 9 MR. CANNON: So you are a technical 10 person? 11 MR. JOSEPH: Technical and operations 12 person. 13 CHAIR ALTOM: Anything else? 14 Yes, Marilyn? 15 MS. GOLDEN: Could you clarify, again, 16 what your problem is with the equivalent 17 facilitation provision? 18 MR. JOSEPH: I would like to call on Paul 19 Grether who can talk more specifically on that. 20 MS. GOLDEN: It is something that was in 21 his presentation. 22 MR. CANNON: I caught that too and I 23 forgot. The equivalent facilitation that is 24 not mentioned going on is a provision in all of 25 our regulations. Basically it says you can do111

1 something different than the standard if it 2 provides equivalent facilitation. 3 The Board does not decide equivalent 4 facilitation; Department of Transportation 5 does. And you have a set regulation process by 6 which you have to go through DOT to get that. 7 So we don't -- the Board does not address 8 how you make that decision. That is up to the 9 Department of Transportation. 10 MR. GRETHER: Is it all right? Thank you. 11 My name is Paul Grether, with Southwest Ohio 12 Regional Transit Authority and I'm the 13 chair-elect of the APTA Street Car 14 Subcommittee. 15 The issue at least in the street car world 16 we're having is not necessarily with the 17 feeling of equivalent facilitation. But 18 because of vehicle technology and accessibility 19 technology for street cars evolving so much 20 since the regulations were written, 21 particularly with the advent of low floor 22 vehicle, it is forcing us in the industry to 23 apply the finding of equivalent facilitation 24 process in areas where we are actually -- if we 25 followed the rules as they are written, we are112

1 actually reducing accessibility. And that is 2 our struggle and that is why we are very, very 3 interested in this effort. 4 CHAIR ALTOM: Thank you, Mr. Charles 5 Joseph. 6 Next on our list is the Hearing Loss 7 Association of America. And up next will be 8 New Jersey Transit. 9 MS. HAMLIN: Good afternoon. Thank you 10 for hearing me this afternoon. I'm going to 11 talk to -- my name is Lise Hamlin. I'm the 12 director of public policy at Hearing Loss 13 Association of America and I'm going to address 14 both questions. 15 First a little bit about the organization 16 and then why I would like you to have me here 17 and our organization represented. 18 Hearing Loss Association of America is a 19 national membership organization, which is 20 supported by an office in Bethesda, Maryland, 21 14 state organizations and chapters around the 22 country. 23 We have been operational for 35 years now 24 and we provide assistance and resources for 25 people with hearing loss and their families,113

1 professionals to learn how to adjust to hearing 2 loss. 3 HLAA is working to raise public awareness 4 for the need for treatment and regular 5 screening throughout life. 6 We have had an impact on communication 7 access, public policy research, public 8 awareness and service delivery related to 9 hearing loss. HLAA works with other consumer 10 organizations and consortium and groups and 11 with policymakers to ensure greater 12 communication access at the national, state and 13 local level. 14 We provide timely and reliable information 15 about hearing loss through our website, our 16 magazine, online news and hearing loss support 17 specialists program, message boards, chat rooms 18 and so forth. 19 Basically we have a lot of interaction 20 between our constituents. We have an outreach 21 of 30,000 people that we can reach and who 22 often call us and contact us through email. 23 We have worked with transportation with 24 Amtrak. We have worked directly to loop 25 stations. Penn Station in New York and D.C.114

1 station has some loops in it. We have also 2 worked with them regarding their roll-out or 3 their passenger information display system that 4 features automatic updates of Amtrak network 5 and equivalent on the stream platforms with the 6 integration of life information as well as 7 prerecorded information. 8 We also served on a number of boards. 9 Currently I serve on the Transportation 10 Disability Coalition; the Access Board 11 Passenger Vessel Emergency Alarms on the 12 telecommunications electronic communications 13 also on the Access Board; and on the ADAAG 14 Review Advisory Committee. 15 We also work with other agencies as well 16 as other access boards and on the Federal 17 Communication Committee, on their consumer 18 advisory, and others that deal with the 19 Twenty-First Century Communications and Video 20 Accessibility Act of 2010. We also work with 21 other coalitions. So we are constantly in 22 touch with other folks working on issues 23 related to hearing loss. 24 National Disability Leadership Alliance, 25 National Hearing Alliance and Consumer Action115

1 Network and consumer organizations for 2 accessible technology as well. 3 So why should I be here? Why should HLAA 4 be represented? I remember one of the 5 important things to understand, we are seeing 6 numbers now like 48 million, which is basically 7 20 percent of the population, have some kind of 8 hearing loss. We feel that no one organization 9 can have the depth of experience to represent 10 48 million people. We reach out to a lot of 11 people. We get calls every day. 12 We know that rail transport is not 13 consumer friendly if you have any kind of 14 hearing loss. We feel we can provide input, we 15 have our experience, we have our background. 16 We have been working with professionals and 17 adults with hearing loss, older adults. It is 18 a different perspective when you see a child 19 with hearing loss approach access than you do 20 with someone who is a senior who has aged into 21 their hearing loss. 22 All of these factors are important. One 23 of the things we can add is outreach. We have 24 constant feedback and information. Not just 25 Lise Hamlin speaking to you. We can reach out116

1 to our members and reach out directly on a 2 question or we can just tell you what we have 3 been hearing from our members. 4 So basically what I'm offering is our time 5 and experience and willingness to work with you 6 and we would be happy to be here to share that 7 with you. 8 CHAIR ALTOM: Awesome. Thank you. 9 Any comments or questions? 10 MR. CANNON: Most of the issues, as far as 11 I know, involve communication of passenger 12 information, "next stop" and "buy your -- cash 13 in your Amtrak card and get a new Visa." If in 14 solving that problem or addressing that, if we 15 were to ensure that those systems were 16 available to people who were totally deaf, 17 would that meet the concerns of your members 18 and if not, why not? 19 MS. HAMLIN: It would. Having visual 20 display systems is usually important and very 21 helpful, but often those systems can only take 22 canned messages. 23 Actually the ones we saw in Amtrak, you 24 can change, but now you have to have somebody 25 who is capable of doing it.117

1 And the other thing that happens is when 2 we are talking about emergencies, for example, 3 or even what happened -- I don't know how many 4 people took Metro this morning. That didn't 5 work out very well. I had no idea what was 6 going on. I knew they were announcing every 7 single stop what was happening, but because of 8 my hearing loss I couldn't capture it. 9 Now, if there was a system -- this is the 10 kind of thing we would look into is whether it 11 would be feasible to put in, for example, a 12 loop system, where I can turn on my telecoil 13 and be directly connected to it. Would it be 14 feasible to also have a board to also signal to 15 my Smart Phone and I could get that kind of 16 signal or I could hear what was going on 17 through my Smart Phone? 18 There are huge new technologies that are 19 available that, yes, would benefit the segment 20 of population with hearing loss in a different 21 way than it would benefit people who are deaf. 22 Although again the visual systems are really 23 important and absolutely would be something 24 that I would want as well. But that is why it 25 is a slightly different perspective. We could118

1 bring that to the table and the Board could say 2 yea or nay on it. But it could be something we 3 could bring to the table. 4 CHAIR ALTOM: Awesome. Thank you. 5 Marilyn, did you have -- 6 MS. GOLDEN: Yeah, I just had a question, 7 not necessarily for Lise. 8 Like HLAA like (inaudible) are both great 9 organizations and represent people who 10 interests sometimes diverge a little bit. Some 11 of the things work for both but some don't. 12 I had a question about the process. 13 Because seven is a lot. Are we discussing each 14 nomination? Will there be any opportunity for 15 that? Because, if so, it will be hard to go 16 through and go back and remember what the 17 issues were with the first person. To me if we 18 discuss each one -- I guess my comment or 19 question is discussion. I didn't do that 20 with -- for example, there was -- I asked a 21 question, APTA -- I had a response and it 22 didn't make sense to me. 23 <<<: You make a decision among us? 24 MS. GOLDEN: Yes. Even of the responder. 25 I don't know if we are going to go back. If we119

1 have a discussion, should it be after each 2 conversation? 3 CHAIR ALTOM: What is the group's choice? 4 We can continue with what we have now, which is 5 discuss, each one talks, we ask them questions. 6 What do you guys think? 7 Jim. 8 MR. WEISMAN: I'm going to disagree with 9 Marilyn slightly. I think we should have 10 everybody speak and then have the group discuss 11 the nomination -- the applicants and the 12 balance. 13 MS. GOLDEN: That's fine. 14 CHAIR ALTOM: At the moment the goal is 15 each person speaks, we ask questions, they 16 respond. We have ballots we can pass out to 17 all of us. We can have one more big 18 discussion, if you want, before the ballots 19 come out. Perfect. That is how we will roll. 20 MS. LINTZ: I just wanted to respond to 21 what Dennis said. The whole reason why you 22 need the induction loops, which Lise had 23 mentioned, if the sound is important for 24 passengers then it should be important for all 25 passengers. That is why visual alerts alone120

1 would not be. Because if that is sufficient 2 for everybody, we should just shut this down. 3 We will get to this further. I just didn't 4 want to leave that hanging like that. 5 CHAIR ALTOM: Any other questions for 6 Janice -- I mean, for Lise? 7 Thank you. 8 Next we have New Jersey Transit and on 9 deck will be New York City Transit. 10 MR. HOFF: I'm Ed Hoff from New Jersey 11 Transit. I'm the director of ADA compliance at 12 New Jersey Transit. And Paul asked me to 13 remind the group that New Jersey Transit did 14 submit an application on time; however, the 15 Board did not have the opportunity to review 16 that. Paul is saying he messed up. I'm not 17 going to say that. But thank you, Paul, and 18 thank you for actually including it on the 19 agenda as well. I appreciate that. 20 New Jersey Transit covers an area of about 21 5,300 square miles. It's the nation's third 22 largest provider of public transportation in 23 the country. The largest provider of public 24 transportation statewide and in the country. 25 It operates of course in New Jersey and New121

1 York but reaches in Philadelphia. The agency 2 operates a fleet of 2,027 buses, 711 trains and 3 45 light rail vehicles. On 236 bus routes and 4 11 rail lines statewide, NJ Transit provides 5 New Jersey nearly 223 million passenger trips 6 every year. 7 Of course I didn't mention our IDA 8 paratransit system I'm proud of as well. It is 9 also obviously has a statewide reach and 10 provides at least a million rides a year. It 11 is called Access Link. 12 I'm in my 19th year at New Jersey Transit 13 and although my responsibilities have changed 14 over the years, I have always provided the 15 corporation with sound judgment and advice in 16 providing accessible transportation. I 17 provided invaluable input, specifically for the 18 purposes of today's meeting, in design of light 19 rail vehicles that operate, and we have two 20 different types that operate on the systems. 21 One is diesel powered vehicle that 22 operates on the river line between Camden and 23 Trenton. The other one is the -- that was 24 manufactured by I-Trans (ph). The other 25 vehicle operates on our Hutsinberg (ph) and122

1 light rail system and a newer light rail system 2 made with a consortium by a company called 3 Chikanshrio (ph). 4 And I provide input on multi rail cars 5 where I consulted or provided input up in St. 6 Bruno, Quebec. 7 New Jersey Transit sits at the forefront 8 as far as transit providers go, public transit 9 providers go in not only meeting the 10 regulations and providing accessible 11 transportation but going beyond that. 12 Also in the last five or 10 years I have 13 been involved with researchers from the 14 University of Pittsburgh and RESNA in looking 15 at ways we can integrate our bridge plate 16 system, our gap bridging mechanism into our 17 existing commuter rail cars making those 18 systems simpler. That is just one portion of 19 the things that we look to do at New Jersey 20 Transit that certainly goes beyond. And 21 hopefully these regulations will address some 22 of those things we are looking to do in making 23 all our systems more accessible to people with 24 disabilities. 25 CHAIR ALTOM: Awesome. Thank you.123

1 Questions or comments for Ed? 2 MR. CANNON: I should have asked this of 3 the others but I forgot. If New Jersey Transit 4 were selected or recommended, who would be the 5 representative? Would that be you? 6 MR. HOFF: That would be me? 7 MR. HART: Knowing that we have a 8 colleague from New York here as well, is there 9 anything that New Jersey or New York that is 10 different that you bring? Say, New York or 11 Metra or -- Dennis raised this before. It 12 would be helpful for the whole committee to be 13 very clear on this. 14 MR. HOFF: I'm not sure. This question I 15 was -- I was thinking of this question when I 16 think Dennis or somebody else mentioned it for 17 the seven of us to understand where the holes 18 are in the stakeholders and try to fill those 19 holes. 20 Truthfully I don't know the stakeholders 21 that well to know where those holes are. I 22 don't know how to answer the question. I know 23 about New Jersey Transit and I know New Jersey 24 Transit quite a bit about its accessibility 25 across everything that we provide, between124

1 facility, training, operations, the whole 2 gamut. 3 What I don't know is I don't know that New 4 York City Transit as well. Certainly enough to 5 speak to that. So I don't really know how we 6 are different. 7 MR. CARLSON: However, there are huge 8 differences between people from New York and 9 people from New Jersey, I want to establish 10 that. 11 (Chorus of Laughter) 12 MR. HOFF: When I order a cup of coffee 13 here, people think I from New York. 14 MR. HART: And we are not going to talk 15 about baseball. 16 (Chorus of Laughter) 17 MR. SLAUGHTER: I would just like to say, 18 it is good to have our neighbors from -- and 19 co-users of track from New Jersey here. I 20 think it is important in looking at 21 organizations like Jersey Transit and the New 22 York authorities and APTA as well as the other 23 authorities represented here. 24 What will happen, and I'm looking at the 25 folks from the other railroads, these are the125

1 folks that we are going to be dealing with at 2 APTA, which is the industry representatives. 3 And what comes out of APTA on the heavy rail 4 side where we have experienced it has been 5 really, really good and it gives organizations, 6 like Amtrak and New Jersey Transit and the 7 other railroads and the industry manufacturers 8 and things, an opportunity to come together and 9 take what comes out of the regulatory side and 10 put it into a shared condition that we can all 11 share within the industry and have opportunity 12 to put something back out to the traveling 13 public that is coherent and better. So that is 14 my two cents worth. 15 CHAIR ALTOM: Excellent. Thank you. Any 16 other? 17 MR. KOLIG: New Jersey Transit and New 18 York MTA bring a much larger system and 19 handling much larger number of people and 20 throughput is larger. Their ability to handle 21 the regulations that we would put into effect 22 here as a higher volume capacity would be very 23 valuable to have. 24 CHAIR ALTOM: Next we have New York City 25 Transit and next we will have Q'Straint so.126

1 MR. WETHERELL: My name is Mike Wetherell 2 at New York City Transit and I'm here to 3 petition on behalf of the New York MTA. First 4 off we have a presentation upon the screen. 5 There are no photos to describe. 6 First off, who are we? The MTA is 7 comprised of six operating agencies and 8 operates subway, base and commuter rail 9 services as well as seven vehicular bridges and 10 two tunnels. The MTA is the largest transit 11 agency in the country. MTA serves a population 12 of 15.1 million people in a 5,000 square mile 13 area, including New York City, Long Island, 14 Southeastern New York State and Connecticut. 15 MTA subways buses and railroads provide 16 2.62 billion trips each year. We carry one in 17 three of the nation's mass transit users and 18 2/3 of the nation's rail riders. MTA rail 19 network covers over 2,000 track miles with over 20 730 rail and subway stations and almost 9,000 21 subway and rail cars. 22 The operating budget for 2013 is 23 13.2 billion-dollars. 24 First off our subway system. New York 25 City Transit operates over 21 interconnected127

1 subway routes -- excuse me. That is the next 2 slide, please. New York City operates over 28 3 interconnected subway rights, provides 4 4.5 million passenger trips per day, ranking 5 seventh in the world subway systems. New York 6 City Transit provides accessible stations and 7 crossover platforms in all five boroughs of New 8 York City for a total of 468 subway systems. 9 If you add 10 more station we equal the rest of 10 the countries total number of subway systems. 11 The New York City Transit currently 12 operates 6,282 subway cars. Since the year 13 2000, New York City Transit has purchased 3,494 14 new subway cars with present orders of 426 new 15 and 380 converted communications based train 16 control cars. We will purchase up to 1,000 new 17 rail cars in the next five year capital 18 program. 19 Turning to our commuter rail systems -- 20 and my alternate, Frank Maldari, is a member of 21 the Long Island Railroad Engineering 22 Department. 23 Long Island Railroad and Metro North with 24 the two largest and busiest commuter railroads 25 in the United States. Combined ridership of128

1 220 million passengers. Since 1990 Metro North 2 and Long Island Railroad has purchased 1,670 3 passenger vehicles and 479 cars presently in 4 production. The TW railroads have plans to 5 purchase up to 500 rail cars in the next 6 capital program. 7 So why include us? The extent of rail car 8 procurement activity at New York MTA is 9 unparalleled in United States. We are a major 10 stakeholders. MTA resources can assist in the 11 Board's understanding of past and present 12 practice in rail car accessibility. If you 13 look at New York Transit alone based on a 14 40-year vehicle life we need to order 200 cars 15 per year forever. 16 MTA can provide feasibility information 17 for retrofit and new car designs. We cover the 18 gambit. We have cars built 40 years ago, 19 almost 50 years ago up to cars that are 20 presently in production. 21 MTA will likely be the largest application 22 of Access Board initiatives in the future. 23 Thank you for your consideration. 24 CHAIR ALTOM: Questions or comments? 25 MR. CANNON: If MTA were selected would129

1 you be the representative? 2 MR. WETHERELL: Yes, I would. 3 MR. CANNON: And can I ask your 4 background? 5 MR. WETHERELL: Yes, and thank you. I'm a 6 mechanical engineer by trade. I have 26 years 7 in the rail industry. I have worked for a 8 major rail car manufacturer. I worked for 9 component suppliers. I have also been 10 assistant chief mechanical officer in a 11 commuter railroad, Long Island Railroad, and 12 I'm presently the chief mechanical officer. 13 So my responsibility is that 6,283 cars 14 and 14 shops, two overhaul shops and our 15 department is about 4,000 people. 16 As I said, we feel that we can contribute. 17 We have a large engineering department. We can 18 do feasibility studies. We do rail car 19 purchases all the time and I want to make my 20 staff and myself available. 21 I also served on the APTA Passenger Rail 22 Equipment and Safety Task Force as chairman. 23 CHAIR ALTOM: Awesome. Thank you. Any 24 other questions? Down at the end. 25 MR. PHILLIPS: I was curious, what has130

1 your agency done to make the rail cars more 2 accessible to people with disabilities 3 historically? 4 MR. WETHERELL: Well, I mean, one of the 5 things that -- well, we have done several 6 things. We have a very old system. We have 7 modified several stations to make sure we meet 8 ADA accessibility as far as the rail car 9 accessibility. 10 As far as rail car design, we absolutely 11 comply. We have put in what we think are the 12 most modern communications systems available. 13 We also, as far as door warning and the -- I 14 mean, as far as accessibility requirements we 15 have met them, but we are also looking at other 16 things. 17 Obviously we have had fold-up seats, we 18 have had wheelchair spaces. We also are 19 looking at right now for our next rail car 20 order the possibility of having open gangway or 21 articulations where there is free passage 22 through rail cars without obstruction. 23 We have a two-year program going on right 24 now to look at what the needs are of the 25 passengers, all passengers and to develop the131

1 next generation of cars that will be with us 2 for the next 40 years. Not only are we looking 3 on the cars we are presently building to 4 comply, but we are looking for opportunities in 5 our coming rail car orders to be even greater 6 accessibility. 7 CHAIR ALTOM: Terry, do you still have a 8 question? 9 MS. PACHECO: I had basically the same 10 question. 11 CHAIR ALTOM: Thank you. 12 <<<: I feel I'm the person responding 13 sometimes to the questions as well. But New 14 York City Transit has done some positive things 15 and MTA and I wish we could do better. And the 16 positive part they have put in visual alerts to 17 station stops on -- I would say all of the new 18 cars for the rail and they have added induction 19 loops to their call boxes and subway 20 information booths. 21 Their buses, they are adding visual alerts 22 on their new buses, their new bus system, but 23 they are not adding induction loops. We are 24 hoping to change that. So those are some of 25 the things -- and for wheelchair access, there132

1 have been improvements inside the subway cars 2 to let people know which subway cars have 3 wheelchair access and which don't so people can 4 preplan. On the negative side not all stations 5 have wheelchair access, which is problematic. 6 Is that a fair -- 7 MR. WETHERELL: That is correct. We have 8 key stations and a lot of it has to do with the 9 age of our system. We are making modifications 10 and upgrading and all of our new stations where 11 we are actually expanding our system. Second 12 Avenue subway will be accessible. This is 13 something we do deal with on a day-to-day 14 basis. 15 We have an old system and we have cars 16 running on a system that was designed for 17 60-foot cars. We have 75-foot cars. We 18 struggle but we comply. Basically it is making 19 an old system comply with the new regulations 20 as best we can. And on our new equipment, 21 making sure we comply 100 percent and look for 22 opportunities to do additional things. 23 Do you have a follow up, Janice? 24 MS. LINTZ: I wanted to add I, from the 25 hearing loss community, think it would be133

1 invaluable to add the New York Transit MTA. 2 Because, realistically, I think if we are going 3 to move forward in getting these things done, 4 the transit is going to be the leader around 5 the country because of the number. And I think 6 we need to get buy-in from them to get this 7 done and realistic information about what can 8 be done. 9 And I have worked so with Michael -- 10 Thomas Prendergast, who is head of the MTA 11 directly and three predecessors. I think it is 12 a very proactive feeling at the MTA and I think 13 it would be helpful to us to move this forward 14 in a productive way of getting the information 15 and accurate information and convincing the MTA 16 of why they need to do more in terms of 17 wheelchair access and induction loops within 18 rail cars. 19 CHAIR ALTOM: Jim. 20 MR. WEISMAN: I believe they should be on 21 the committee. I have been fighting with MTA 22 since I got my law degree. It is really true. 23 On behalf of disabled people, we only have 88 24 stations out of 468 accessible now. We will 25 have a little more than 100 by 2020. But this134

1 is the industry leader. And they buy the most 2 equipment and they -- Cliff Perez and I were 3 talking right before lunch about something 4 Lyndon Johnson once said. 5 MR. PEREZ: You are going to bring that 6 up? 7 MR. WEISMAN: I have to. "Better to have 8 them in the tent pissing out than outside the 9 tent pissing in." Between New Jersey Transit 10 and MTA, you are moving most of the people who 11 ride every day in the country and we want their 12 buy-in. We want them on the committee. We 13 want them saying, "This is a good idea, not a 14 bad idea." 15 Sorry, Marsha. He was the president of 16 the United States I was quoting, by the way. 17 (Chorus of Laughter) 18 MR. WEISMAN: But if you get buy-in on 19 transit on this, the industry will make what we 20 need and do what we want and we will not be 21 fighting with transit. They will be our ally 22 and we will be moving it together. 23 To show you where MTA is coming from, 40 24 years after they fought us on accessible 25 transit, they are now figuring out they should135

1 not have been cheap on accessible stations 2 because paratransit is killing them. Five 3 hundred million a year and we are working with 4 the law department to come up with a plan to 5 apply for the 20 percent rule -- if you don't 6 know. If you renovate a non-key station you 7 have to spend 20 percent on accessibility. But 8 20 percent doesn't buy elevators because they 9 are so expensive. We are trying to create a 10 fund we can pick extra stations. 11 In New York City they go in borough by 12 train and stay in their borough. It creates a 13 huge burden in paratransit system to go into 14 boroughs. MTA, the next generation of 15 leadership is dealing with the problem that 16 their predecessors created for them and they 17 are trying to be creative in coming up with 18 ways to do this. All this involves federal 19 regulations which are generally, they have to 20 be generally applicable to the United States 21 but it is very difficult to make a perfect fit 22 when you are moving, how many, 8 million people 23 a day. 24 <<<: Eight million between the buses and 25 the subway. The subway is 5.4.136

1 I think the big operators should probably 2 be on the committee because we need their 3 support. 4 <<<: There are a lot of big operators so 5 I don't know what the cut off is. To me I go 6 back to Dennis' principle. I realize there may 7 be particular reasons particular entities 8 should be on the committee. Although I 9 primarily ask what rep is not represented. 10 I am much less familiar with the specifics 11 of New York because I'm not from the area and I 12 don't work with your system very much. 13 Going from your statement about 14 compliance, I have a two-part question. One 15 part is for all your various kinds of trains, 16 all your various rail stations, are all cars 17 accessible, the first question? In most 18 transit instances we have to say no. 19 The second question is, do you do any 20 remanufacturing of cars and, if so, have you 21 done that in compliance with the ADA rail car 22 remanufacturing requirements, which get ignored 23 a lot? 24 MR. WETHERELL: The MTA is comprised not 25 only subway, we also have commuter. All of our137

1 cars are designed to be accessible. Is every 2 location at every station 100 percent 3 accessible? I don't know the answer to that 4 question. But I can look into it for you. But 5 all of our cars are designed to interface with 6 the stations to be accessible. All of our 7 newer cars do have warning lights and bells and 8 the communication systems are both audible and 9 also visual. 10 But the older cars, a lot of them, were 11 built in the 70s. So we didn't -- we can't say 12 that all of them are 100 percent, what you 13 would call, accessible. I know on the commuter 14 rail, most of the fleet has gone through a 15 transition. 16 The commuter rail has something we don't 17 and that is they have bathrooms and all the 18 bathrooms are accessible and there are -- you 19 know, the rules as far as a commuter train is a 20 little different than subway car. 21 But, yes, as far as the 100 percent 22 compliance -- I think Frank could probably help 23 me out. I think by the time they replace the 24 M-3s are going to have 100 percent accessible 25 rail cars. Frank, are you on the phone?138

1 MS. GOLDEN: Do you remanufacturer cars? 2 MR. WETHERELL: We don't. We used to have 3 a program that we send them out to a car 4 builder to overhaul them. We have gone to what 5 we call an SMS program which is we take systems 6 periodically, whether it be on a four-year, 7 five-year, 17-year cycle and we replace the 8 systems in-house. We don't do any structural 9 work to the vehicles. 10 MS. GOLDEN: Replace the systems in-house 11 meaning? 12 MR. WETHERELL: We will take the trucks 13 off, we will put new wheels and axles. We will 14 take the braking system and refurbish them. We 15 will take every system on the car apart and 16 redo it. 17 MS. GOLDEN: So it is a lot of rehabbing 18 to extend the vehicle's life? 19 MR. WETHERELL: That is exactly what it 20 is. 21 MS. GOLDEN: Right. And the ADA 22 requirement is making it accessible -- Dennis 23 will remember -- 24 MR. WETHERELL: Excuse me. One of the key 25 things you said is extend the life. The life139

1 of our cars is 40 years. Having a seven- or 2 four-year cycle on a battery or a brake system 3 or the trucks does not extend the life. What 4 it does is -- we've gone to a reliability-based 5 system where when we do these periodic 6 change-out of components we are looking for 7 reliability. We are looking to take the system 8 and renew it before it breaks down. We are not 9 extending the life. 10 MS. BUNALES: Did you still need 11 Mr. Maldari's line open? 12 <<<: I think that is a rhetorical 13 question. I think I'm right about that. 14 CHAIR ALTOM: Terry and Cliff. 15 MS. PACHECO: Can I just ask. I'm 16 wondering of the equipment and stations that 17 you have made accessible, can you tell us what 18 you have done as far as accessibility for 19 people with vision loss? Not that I have 20 anything against the deaf or wheelchairs but we 21 tend to be an area people don't think a lot 22 about. I'm wondering what you have done as far 23 as accessibility for people with those types of 24 disabilities. 25 MR. WETHERELL: Do you mean compliance?140

1 MS. PACHECO: I mean, compliance or under 2 best practices. I'm talking things like 3 audible signage, like putting your signage 4 where people can see it, tactical warning 5 strips, those kind of things. 6 <<<: And also between car barriers? 7 MS. PACHECO: Exactly. 8 MR. WETHERELL: Our specification for new 9 cars, we have audible alarms when the doors are 10 going to be shutting. We are between car 11 barriers. We will take a car out of service if 12 even a chain is not hooked up or any kind of 13 barrier problems we have. We have strict 14 compliance rules where we have the car designed 15 to comply with ADA and if we have a system that 16 is not operating, such as a door chime is not 17 working, that train will be taken out of 18 service. 19 So we take our operations seriously 20 because we do move so many people and so many 21 people with special needs that we can't afford 22 not to do that. So we strictly comply with the 23 ADA. 24 MR. PEREZ: My question is very similar to 25 Terry's, but more specific regarding just plain141

1 sound. 2 I don't know if any of you recall or 3 ridden on the subway but let me give you an 4 idea of how it sounds when you get to the 5 station: (Intentionally inaudible) "Watch out 6 for the closing doors." If you are going to be 7 on the committee, this could help so we can 8 have clarity what freaking station I'm at or 9 going to, I would be voting for you. I don't 10 know you can respond to the fact after all the 11 years that is the only thing you can understand 12 when you ride the subway. 13 MR. WETHERELL: Point well taken. If you 14 ride any of the 3400 cars that we have bought 15 in the last 12 years you will see that we have 16 an automatic announcement system that not only 17 does it tell you what the next station is, it 18 gives the announcements and matches the audio 19 with the visual. Some of the older systems, 20 you get somebody who puts their face too close 21 to a microphone or doesn't talk properly into 22 it, you can have issues. 23 What we have been doing for the last -- 24 more than half the fleet we automated that. 25 And we have done regular updates to the ADS142

1 system. 2 Major part of my day-to-day 3 responsibilities to make sure the systems are 4 accurate and any changes to any lines are 5 updated. Those systems will tell you where you 6 are going, where the line goes to, it will tell 7 you what the next station is and it will also 8 tell you what time it is and goes into "see 9 something/say something." 10 We have done a tremendous amount of 11 improvement to the very problem that you were 12 talking about. 13 But we have also on the older lines worked 14 with our conductors to ensure that they are 15 trained as to how to properly talk into those 16 microphones. 17 Again, you may run into a situation where 18 you have problems with audibility. Most of the 19 time it is not a equipment related problem. 20 MR. HUNTER: Mr. Chairman, I want to ask a 21 comment about a lot of what is said. I think 22 the presence of New York MTA at the table and 23 the fact they are willingly coming to this 24 group and asking to be part of this group and 25 that has generated quite a bit of question and143

1 answer, quite a bit of communication, a lot of 2 comments, I think it is a testament to how 3 important -- how it is major players in the 4 transit industry, such as New York City 5 Transit, the New York City MTA, the New York 6 City Transit and APTA will play in the success 7 of this program. 8 If this program really wants to have a 9 profound impact on transit accessibility and 10 improvements in transit accessibility in this 11 country in the near future, it is going to be 12 critical that those parties are here at the 13 table, willingly having dialogue, agreeing to 14 the terms of the proposed regulatory language 15 because they are the ones who will be 16 responsible for implementing it both through 17 capital projects like retrofits and 18 modifications. 19 Marilyn brought up the question of 20 modifications. A lot of what the industry has 21 been struggling with and a lot of what this 22 committee is being brought forward to discuss 23 is a lot of weakness in current ADA. I 24 understand a lot of that can be made easier for 25 the transit agencies to accomplish.144

1 We all want to accomplish the same thing, 2 but there are ways it can be done in a much 3 more efficient manner and I really think that 4 we have before us an opportunity to bring some 5 people into this group right now who will 6 really have a very profound, positive impact on 7 the success of this group. And I think that 8 that is something that we should all be aware 9 of. Thank you. 10 CHAIR ALTOM: Thank you. 11 We have talked about this for quite a bit. 12 You have been on the hot seat a lot. Is there 13 any question outside of what we have already 14 talked about you would like to ask? Janice? 15 We will try to get through this quickly. 16 MS. LINTZ: I just wanted to respond to 17 Terry. I don't mean to speak for the MTA but 18 because I worked for the MTA there is a part 19 that I -- I feel like I'm representing them. 20 There are visual alert strips on the 21 platform for people with visual impairments and 22 I believe where you buy your Metro card it has 23 also been a tactile -- it is raised tactile so 24 you can figure out what to purchase. 25 Also the only other thing I wanted to say,145

1 because I feel like having now spoken so much 2 that my silence will be perceived about -- 3 Hearing Loss Association admission will be 4 perceived as I'm not welcoming them. I don't 5 want my silence to be perceived that way, 6 especially if additional industry being added, 7 having another voice at the table representing 8 people with hearing loss should be welcomed. I 9 didn't want my silence to be like I was going 10 to push them away. 11 CHAIR ALTOM: Quickly. 12 MR. HART: I want to clarify. When we are 13 speaking about service life, typically a car 14 has a service life of 25 to 38 years and in 15 some cases a transit agency had to prolong or 16 extend the life of those cars. And that may 17 involve mechanical work, it may involve 18 structural work because of rust. 19 So 40-year-old cars -- regulation put in 20 place 25 years ago. 21 I wanted to just note while I appreciate 22 my colleagues from New Jersey and New York 23 talking about progress -- a couple of my 24 colleagues highlight -- Boston is the fifth 25 largest transit agency and we will be providing146

1 250 new cars in the next four years. We are 2 the oldest transit agency. 3 And Boston, unlike our brothers south, has 4 actually done some -- has 78 of our 84 subway 5 overhead stations are accessible. And I 6 highlight that because I don't want to get the 7 misconception that there is not a lot of work 8 to be done in older systems. Boston was lucky; 9 it had proactive managers. 10 As Jim Weisman correctly highlighted, the 11 real issue for older systems and how they 12 achieve access is not strictly about cars. 13 CHAIR ALTOM: Thank you. 14 Marilyn, quickly, quickly, quickly. 15 MS. GOLDEN: I was going to say, I didn't 16 realize the full scale of the problem but we 17 have it in living color sort of amongst us, 18 which is a car gets extensively rehabbed but if 19 it is not defined -- 20 It flashes green and then red. I think it 21 needs a battery, maybe. Is there another mic? 22 If transit agencies are doing a lot of 23 work on old cars but they don't exactly define 24 it as extending the vehicle's life, it will 25 last just as long, then the rehab is not147

1 required to make it accessible. The ADA intent 2 is clear. When you are doing a lot of work on 3 a vehicle, it has to be made accessible. If 4 feasible, and feasibility is defined very 5 broadly. 6 So I don't know. It is disheartening to 7 hear that people are using a semantic argument 8 that gets around the letters of the ADA. And 9 that is one of many reasons I have to 10 disagree -- is it Stanton, the gentleman from 11 CalTrans? 12 MR. HUNTER: Stan Hunter. 13 MS. GOLDEN: I appreciate that you feel 14 this way. I wish I did. But I don't think I 15 feel that we all want the same thing, actually. 16 I wasn't going to start talking about it but 17 since you said that. 18 It could be conceivable that some of the 19 changes some people want in the ADA regulation 20 could actually result in more access. I guess 21 it is possible. Most of us who are ADA 22 advocates for most of our professional life, 23 you know, the first thing we are going to hear 24 when you want federal law change is that it is 25 going to be weaker so money won't have to be148

1 spent. I don't think we can say we all want 2 the same thing. If that were true, I don't 3 think we would need the committee. 4 I'm eager to work together. I don't want 5 to alienate everybody, which I've probably 6 already done. But those of us who are 7 advocates have spent a lot of time trying to 8 make accessibility happen, often to no avail. 9 I will be happy to sing Kumbaya when we all 10 agree. If you want full access for people with 11 disabilities, then we all want the same thing. 12 MR. HOFF: I need to answer because, first 13 of all, I invite you to come to New York and 14 get an understanding of what we are talking 15 about when we are talking about maintenance. 16 As far as extending the life of a car, we 17 in our specification, require a car builder to 18 build a stainless steel car that will last for 19 40 years. It is a requirement, design issue. 20 As far as accessibility, accessibility for our 21 cars match up with the station's platforms. 22 And as far as wheelchair accessibility, we have 23 that. 24 If you are talking about modernizing 25 communications systems on 3,000 cars, it would149

1 have to be a program where you have to take the 2 cars out of service. I think you have the 3 misconception that we take the cars out of 4 service and do major work. We take them out of 5 service every few weeks, every seven to 14 6 years to take the trucks off, renew the axle, 7 take the systems off and put refurbished 8 systems back on. It is not major work. I 9 think it is very difficult in this room to 10 describe that. 11 If you like, we can have you in New York 12 and I will take you into our overhaul shops and 13 I will show you exactly what we are doing and 14 we can get a better understanding. 15 I think that would also help the members 16 of the community to understand exactly what 17 work is being done on the cars and where we do 18 have opportunities. I think there is one thing 19 we can contribute, that we can bring that 20 understanding. 21 MS. GOLDEN: Thank you. 22 CHAIR ALTOM: We have to get back on 23 track. That may be an issue that we put on our 24 issues topic we talk about later. Thank you, 25 Michael. I really appreciate it.150

1 We have Q'Straint on the phone. 2 MR. LUCIER: Thank you. Can everyone hear 3 me okay? I would like to thank you guys for 4 the opportunity and consideration for Q'Straint 5 inclusion to the Rail Vehicles Access Advisory 6 Membership. I think we bring a unique voice 7 for the wheelchair passenger once on the 8 vehicle. 9 People talk about accessibility and that 10 is all well and good to get the rider on the 11 vehicle. Then what? Q'Straint is the 12 worldwide leader on wheelchair security. We 13 have been on the forefront of the wheelchair 14 scene and testing for more than 30 years. 15 Somebody referenced working with the 16 University of Pittsburgh. We do a lot of 17 studies and work with them directly. During 18 that time we worked closely with the ADA 19 community to assist in compliance and 20 innovations. Locally owned and operated we 21 work nationally to more than 60 countries. And 22 we hope to bring our expertise to the Board. 23 There is a component that is missing on 24 U.S. Access Board for rail. Where 25 accessibility and rail is an accomplished151

1 milestone need to discuss wheelchair safety 2 during transportation. Quietly Q'Straint 3 should be included. More accessible doesn't 4 necessarily mean safe transportation. And I 5 think that is something we can bring to the 6 committee as far as our innovative design, our 7 unique perspectives on securing wheelchairs 8 while they are in motion. We are in transit 9 and paratransit vehicles throughout the country 10 and rail is the new frontier for us to help 11 with this as more and more people are riding 12 the rail system. 13 I feel it is something we can learn as a 14 part of this committee to figure out what 15 demands are out there, what potential we could 16 be doing to assist in helping for a safer 17 wheelchair ride or transportation. Thank you 18 for your consideration. I know Dennis is going 19 the ask a question. 20 CHAIR ALTOM: I was going to say you Knew 21 it was coming. 22 MR. LUCIER: I worked very closely with 23 OEM developing and engineering our product into 24 their vehicles. I also was -- my alternate 25 members who would also be -- he is truly a152

1 engineer. I am only an engineer because I play 2 one on TV. I work very closely with the 3 engineering teams and mostly the designers and 4 OEMs. I work closely with our engineering 5 team. We are a very small company, very 6 tightknit company. Being the owner of the 7 company, I'm involved with research and 8 development on a regular basis. 9 We been -- like I said, the company itself 10 has been working with wheelchair securements 11 nationally and internationally for the last 30 12 years. 13 MR. CANNON: It is not exactly a statement 14 but more of a statement. Many years ago 15 including when we first started with Rehab Act 16 requirements it was determined a lot of 17 research by CalTrans and FRA due to the 18 G-forces because a train does not stop like a 19 bus, that securement is not required on any 20 rail system. 21 Aside from that particular issue, there is 22 a practical one, which is it is different to 23 say when you have a bus driver on a bus and you 24 are in the bus, that there is somebody 25 available that can fasten the securement versus153

1 a conductor on a train who may or may not be in 2 your vicinity to either lock you in or unlock 3 you at the time you need to get off or move 4 around or go to the restroom or anything else. 5 From a practical standpoint and G-force 6 standpoint it is always a consideration that 7 wheelchair constraints are not required in any 8 rail system. 9 MR. GIRARDEN: I can understand that and I 10 agree wholeheartedly. It is a very difficult 11 and arduous task to accommodate that. But the 12 G-forces do cause wheelchairs to move, tip over 13 and therefore not meeting the ADA law, which is 14 it is not supposed to move in any direction two 15 inches. In reality you have a way where you 16 have wheelchair riders who are on a vehicle 17 that may not necessary tip over but that chair 18 sliding into a (inaudible) can cause 19 (inaudible) on to another rider. 20 I think it is something that may have to 21 be reconsidered. Simultaneously we are 22 developing products that do not require driver 23 or conductor interaction and that is something 24 I want to make the Board aware of. And that is 25 some of the products we would be willing to154

1 bring to the committee to talk about. 2 CHAIR ALTOM: Blair, you have your hand 3 up. 4 MR. SLAUGHTER: Since the inception of the 5 ADA in 1990 there have been changes in the 6 federal requirement and recommendations from 7 the NTSB as far as securing various things and 8 even prior to 1990 how we manage things that 9 are brought into the train by passengers, 10 whether it be baggage or whatever, or things we 11 bring in, appliances or things that have to be 12 restrained. 13 It has been a concern, I know, for folks 14 at Amtrak, especially not so much in normal 15 train motion because of the accelerations and 16 decelerations and normal train motion and 17 almost not seen by wheelchairs, but in more 18 severe incidents it poses a threat to the 19 person in the wheelchair and others around 20 them. 21 And I fought for many years to the 22 gentleman's point from Q'Straint, that a smart 23 way forward would be a system that was 24 universal that allowed the person in the 25 wheelchair to have their full independence and155

1 yet the security and safety of being restrained 2 like anyone else or anything else in the 3 vehicle. 4 So that is a point I would like to make 5 and I think that there were some efforts early 6 on when the ADA was being crafted that was put 7 back by, I believe, one of the wheelchair 8 companies that is no longer around because they 9 just didn't want to deal with it. 10 I think there is some room to look at 11 those things, especially as we go forward for 12 the overall safety of everyone in the train. 13 CHAIR ALTOM: Any other? Chris? 14 MR. HART: Just for a technical 15 standpoint, with high speed rail, no one is 16 doing chair security in high speed rail. 17 That said, for cars that are -- street 18 cars, particularly PCC, had head-on collision, 19 street cars, there is possibly a G-force case 20 to be made. 21 But I just want the committee to be aware 22 of it. In high speed rail in Europe and in 23 Japan, nobody is doing securement. 24 CHAIR ALTOM: Thank you, Chris. 25 <<<: I might add to the previous speakers156

1 our research has shown that there has been 2 increasing tendency also of people using 3 scooters who come on board public 4 transportation vehicles, that also includes 5 trains, many of these persons who are using the 6 scooter actually requested on their own will 7 change or transfer to a regular seat, in case 8 the scooter still has to be secured in a way 9 that is safe for other passengers in these 10 environments. 11 So there might be an area for securement 12 systems to apply to this as well on trains. 13 Thank you. 14 CHAIR ALTOM: Not seeing any other hands, 15 thank you, very much, folks at Q'Straint. 16 Next on the agenda is Siemens followed by 17 the Washington Metropolitan Transit Authority. 18 MR. SINGH: Good afternoon. I'm here to 19 represent Siemens Transportation System in 20 Sacramento. We are the leaders in North 21 America. And I have been a systems engineer 22 since 2005. And I have provided automatic 23 ramps for City of Calgary, Denver has many 24 ramps, Oakland has automatic ramps. Salt Lake 25 City has automatic ramps, and San Diego has157

1 automatic ramps and bridge plates. 2 And I'm in a unique position. I take the 3 request for proposal last year from big 4 authorities, small authorities which are citing 5 the committees are CFRs regulation to be 6 complying with the ramps and I make sure 7 working with the OEMs, our OEMs whenever you 8 get a compliant ramp. 9 The only exception that we have was on the 10 two-inch barriers on the ramp that we applied 11 for Portland. I assisted them, Salt Lake City, 12 assisted them; San Diego, I assisted them. 13 Based on these assistance for Portland 5, 14 my ramp is as wide as the door opening. If the 15 door opens 1220-millimeters my ramp is 16 1220-meters wide. 17 My challenge is I get goose bumps when I 18 talk about when I went to an ADA outreach down 19 in San Diego. I met many different people. 20 There is a whole range of moment challenging 21 events in the ADA community. There was one guy 22 he looked normal, but he was an amputee from 23 some war. I didn't ask him what war. But 24 total amputee. He had two prosthetic legs. 25 Young kid, 21 years old. Only thing he could158

1 do is move his face. He was the fastest kid on 2 the block. I was uniquely qualified to assist 3 the committee when we get the proposals and how 4 to deal with it in a technical compliant manner 5 and also cost effective, which is very 6 important to us. 7 If we propose a car that is 8 10 million-dollars, no one would buy it. 9 Cities can't afford it. So we have to come 10 with a design that are ADA compliant and also 11 very cost effective. We have done that. I 12 have personally spent almost a year in Europe 13 with two different OEMs designing these ramps 14 with them. 15 And, secondly, my change point when I was 16 doing the outreach program I was partly in the 17 outreach in San Diego. 18 And the third thing I was talking to 19 Janice here, I believe, about the visual 20 impaired. I can tell from personal experience 21 I am the only person in the room who got lost 22 international traveling on a train. 23 I was in Belgium, they changed the 24 platforms on me. I didn't understand anything. 25 Went and sat on the train. Went to sleep, the159

1 next thing the conductor comes in and looks at 2 me with a guy that doesn't speak English. He 3 says, "Sir, can I see your ticket." Looks at 4 my ticket. And he said, "Where are you going?" 5 I was going from Brussels to Agrium but took 6 the wrong train because I couldn't understand 7 the announcements. I was in Paris. I have a 8 distinction of gets lost internationally on a 9 train. 10 So to me also I think when I was -- to me 11 when I thought about the ADA community was 12 mobility, seriously. I always thought -- I 13 never thought about that people could be 14 visual. I understand the visual, but people 15 who can't hear, I only got (inaudible) talking 16 to a few folks here and that is very important. 17 I'm selected with a committee, or not 18 selected to the committee, that is besides the 19 point. But I will take this note very strongly 20 and also talk to my superiors that we have to 21 do something about people who cannot hear. Put 22 bigger screens. In Siemens vehicle we have 23 bigger monitor, destination signs. But not for 24 all the announcements. We will try to make it 25 within cost effective means. And I think this160

1 is very unique. 2 I'm probably the only person in the room 3 with a system engineers for ramps and 4 (inaudible) specifically and who deal with 5 compliance issues. One phone call, if someone 6 felt the ramp was unsafe and the system came to 7 a screeching halt. So I'm going to ask 8 everybody to please vote for me so I'm selected 9 in the committee. I would want to be part of 10 this movement and bring it forward and I will 11 be as much help as you want. 12 CHAIR ALTOM: Thank you. 13 And questions? First is Dennis. 14 MR. CANNON: I enjoy all your TV ads, by 15 the way. 16 MR. SINGH: I'm not on TV. My company is. 17 MR. CANNON: Exactly what do you actually 18 build, rail cars or do you do the systems 19 within them? 20 MR. SINGH: No. We are complete rail car 21 builders. We are leaders in light rail 22 manufacturers in the U.S.A., Siemens Light Rail 23 Systems Division. And we have retrofitted a 24 few cars in the past. And we are going into 25 Metros, single level, double level Metros in161

1 the future, perhaps high speed system also. 2 MR. CANNON: We have representatives from 3 Bombardier and Talgo and what do you bring that 4 is different from what they are going to bring? 5 MR. SINGH: I think, first of all, if we 6 have Bombardier and Alstom, I will not be in a 7 supermajority. A minority, first of all, make 8 it clear. Second thing, I am uniquely 9 qualified I work in the engineering office and 10 when there is a problem I also work on the 11 trains. 12 I work people ramp system, is a system 13 that is not mechanical. Majority we want 14 certain people going on especially -- I was 15 joking with someone. I said, "I got a Ph.D. in 16 braille because I had to get molds made twice." 17 My molds got made in Europe and they have a 18 small cylinder on top of that is a small dome. 19 In U.S.A. Type 2 they are asking for only dome. 20 I got the dome made. And then I had all the 21 words in upper case because I put (inaudible). 22 I never knew that. Finally I spent on each 23 push button, we spent $12,000 on new modes. 24 Learning experience. I learned when I started 25 going to outreaches.162

1 And today I met few folks here who are 2 visually and audio hearing issues and that is 3 another thing they are also part of the ADA. I 4 was not strongly aware of that issue before. 5 I'm uniquely qualified. I can go back and work 6 with the OEMs and work on the RFPs. 7 I was talking to somebody if you want 8 something done, it has to be put on the RFPs. 9 We in the car business pay much more attention 10 to that. 11 MR. CANNON: You are the representative? 12 MR. SINGH: Yes, I am the representative. 13 MR. HART: From a technical standpoint, 14 Siemens is in vehicle production -- I don't 15 want to slight Talgo, but Talgo, to my 16 knowledge, does not do light rail in any volume 17 compared -- I am wondering if you are able to 18 speak to some of the Siemens available overseas 19 and not currently available here, or very 20 accessible street cars has huge features that 21 we don't see in the U.S. market. 22 Ultimately, I think, knowing the Access 23 Board, they are going to be interested in 24 hearing from all the manufacturers about what 25 is available not just in the U.S. but overseas163

1 and what can be brought to the U.S. market that 2 is not currently here. 3 MR. SINGH: I have a really close 4 communication with our -- we call them Center 5 of Competence, the COC in Europe. And I tell 6 you that U.S.A., ADA requirements are much more 7 strict than European requirements. We will in 8 future produce 100 percent low floor vehicle 9 also. If the vehicle is not in level, say, 10 14-inch platform and, say, the vehicle 11 threshold is 14-inches, if it is 18-inch 12 because of legacy platform, that vehicle would 13 get a ramp and that ramp would be 100 percent 14 ADA compliant. I can assure you of that. I 15 have done it and I provided six ramps that are 16 ADA compliant. And there is no playing with 17 the ADA issue, I'm telling you. 18 I'm a very strong advocate and luckily our 19 leadership at Siemens support me 100 percent 20 and they want these vehicles to be ADA 21 compliant. 22 We have a platform at 70 for Houston, 23 Minneapolis and Charlotte, Hampton roads. It 24 is an active suspension vehicle. So the 25 vehicle matches the platform height. Platforms164

1 are 14-inches, 70 percent, so we have a special 2 area for the ADA people. 3 And, yes, there is no requirement for 4 restraining the seats at this time. It is a 5 good thing to have and if the gentleman is 6 listening, I might suggest that for the brakes 7 and the ramp itself -- because when I was doing 8 the outreach in San Diego, I talked to one of 9 the gentlemen, he said, "Okay, if someone put 10 as restraint on my seat, how am I going to undo 11 that?" Because there is not just one type of 12 ADA. 13 A kid moving the thing with his head, 14 cannot put the restraint on his head. Light 15 rail is different market. Metros are slightly 16 different and high speed. Would be slightly 17 different. We are working on a train 125-miles 18 an hour vehicle and they will get a pressure 19 sealed door system. 20 Now, the issue is how do we integrate cap 21 filler, a bridge plate or step on that. 22 If I'm on the team, I will also try to 23 propose some operational suggestions to the 24 committee, how the doors and ramps need to 25 interact. Because for the high speed trains,165

1 the doors is a pressure sealed system, 2 otherwise the ears would pop. To integrate a 3 step that is also comparative can be done. 4 There is some things we discuss on the 5 committee. Hopefully they can also be codified 6 and hopefully another them is I bring because I 7 deal with so many cities with the ADA issue, 8 every city have their own requirements, which 9 is not hard to meet. Just a software change. 10 But it will be very good to have a 11 standardized response, beepers, push button 12 lettering, annunciation, fold-up seat, not 13 fold-up seats, all those things. I personally 14 feel I bring a very unique perspective. 15 CHAIR ALTOM: Thank you. 16 MR. SLAUGHTER: To speak of the breadth of 17 ability in Siemens, right, now Amtrak is 18 procuring new locomotives from Siemens. On the 19 other end of the spectrum from accessibility 20 standpoint, we have a power slided door for 21 accessing our bedroom in the new sloping cars. 22 The controller for that is Siemens controller 23 and software. So corporately there is a lot of 24 ability there that should not go unnoticed. 25 CHAIR ALTOM: Awesome. Thank you.166

1 MR. SINGH: I'm currently working on a car 2 vestibule doors. The issue do we put push 3 button or all that. I propose the vestibule 4 doors have a sensor on the top, totally 5 touchless system. Somebody with the visual 6 mobility, they don't have to press any button, 7 the door open itself, and stay open for some 8 time and close back. There are many things 9 that can be done. Control is an important 10 thing but a simple thing to do. And hopefully 11 we can move further on. 12 CHAIR ALTOM: Next up. We need to role 13 because I have to get my break here. 14 MR. PHILLIPS: I just want to let you know 15 unfortunately I have to go. I have a prior 16 commitment. I just want to voice support for 17 HLAA's membership and to make a point about 18 that Marilyn made about needing to maintain a 19 balance on the committee. I know all -- the 20 new applicants are wonderful, but I think it is 21 important to maintain that balance. 22 CHAIR ALTOM: Paul will get with you and 23 we will get your votes before you get out of 24 here. 25 Last but certainly not least, Washington167

1 Metropolitan Area Transit. 2 MS. BUNALES: Operator, would you unmute 3 Glenn Millis WMATA. 4 OPERATOR: Glenn's line is open. 5 MS. BUNALES: Whenever you are ready, 6 Mr. Millis. 7 MR. CAPOZZI: He is on the Red Line. 8 (Chorus of Laughter) 9 <<<: It keeps jamming. 10 MS. BUNALES: I can barely hear you as it 11 is. Can you go to handset, please. 12 Operator, would it be better if we 13 disconnect WMATA and have you dial right back 14 using the number on the list? 15 OPERATOR: Are you asking me to dial out 16 to Glenn? Glenn, are you on the phone? I can 17 certainly try to dial back out to him, if you 18 would like. 19 MS. BUNALES: Okay. 20 I take it there is no WMATA in the 21 audience. 22 CHAIR ALTOM: Any other groups in the 23 audience that wish to join that was not on our 24 list? 25 MS. BUNALES: Glenn is disconnected and we168

1 are going to try to get him back. There is 2 activity on the call here. Hopefully the line 3 is better. I do see Glenn Millis back in the 4 room. 5 MR. MICHEL: I just had a suggestion while 6 we're waiting. It would be good in the 7 interest of time if we were able to establish 8 which type of representation we have here at 9 the table and where they fall and what 10 categories they fall into so we can better 11 establish what we're missing and what may need 12 to be addressed as far as voting in the new 13 committee members and whatnot. 14 MS. BUNALES: I do not have WMATA. I do 15 not know why. 16 MR. BEATTY: We can do that. In our 17 balance plan for the advisory committee, we had 18 essentially four categories. People that are 19 providers that operate rail vehicles, 20 suppliers, essentially manufacturers, 21 organizations and others. 22 So when the applications came in, we broke 23 them into the categories. There are 23 members 24 currently on the committee. Soon as I find my 25 table.169

1 MS. LINTZ: Why is Washington, D.C., not 2 here? Because they are in Washington. Not to 3 be like demanding -- 4 MR. BEATTY: Except for New Jersey 5 Transit, we had a nomination period and the 6 opportunity -- 7 MS. LINTZ: No, no. 8 MR. PEREZ: Why aren't they physically 9 hear? 10 MS. LINTZ: Did they not know how to take 11 the Red Line to Metro Center? I'm being honest 12 in the question. I think that is important. 13 We want people here as stakeholders who 14 are committed to this process and -- I 15 understand they were not initially in the 16 thing. I would not be asking those questions. 17 I would just want to know if people can come 18 here -- if this is important to people, we want 19 the people who are committed and we want people 20 who are going to show up. And if you can't 21 come from Washington, D.C., to come to this 22 meeting, it is concerning and I think it is 23 fair to ask. Why are you and your alternate 24 not here? 25 MR. BEATTY: I don't have the answer.170

1 When you get them on the line you can ask. 2 In terms of Jonathan's question, we 3 currently have 234 organizations. Just to read 4 off (reading). 5 <<<: Do you have a number for each of the 6 general categories? 7 MR. BEATTY: For manufacturers we have 8 four, for disability organizations we have 9 eight, for providers we have four and for other 10 we have seven. So four manufacturers are 11 represented by 17 percent. Eight disability 12 organizations represent 34 percent, roughly 35, 13 four providers represent 34 percent and the 14 other falls into about 30 percent. And FRA is 15 a member, but they are not classified and they 16 are not included in that number of 23. 17 MR. HUNTER: Can you go slowly go through 18 your list of what of the 23 members fall into. 19 MR. BEATTY: I can do that. Alstom, 20 manufacturer. American Council for the Blind, 21 disability. Independent Living, disability. 22 Bombardier Transportation, manufacturer. 23 California Department of Transportation 24 Division of Rail, provider. Environmental 25 Access, other. Community Transportation171

1 Association of America, other. Disability 2 Defense Fund, disability. Hearing Access 3 Program, disability. International Center for 4 Accessibility Transportation, other. Maryland 5 Transit Administration, provider. West and 6 Northeast Community Rail Transit, provider. 7 National Association of the Deaf, disability. 8 International Council of Independent Living, 9 disability. National Disability Rights 10 Network, disability. National Railroad 11 Passenger Corporation, otherwise known as 12 Amtrak, provider. Parson Brinckerhoff, other. 13 RailPlan International, manufacturer. Ricon 14 Corporation, other. Southwest Transit 15 Association, other. Talgo, manufacturers. 16 United Spinal Association, disability. 17 CHAIR ALTOM: Dennis, you had a question? 18 MR. CANNON: I have a question in terms of 19 the kinds of things we are going to try to 20 write regulations for. We heard discussion 21 that the provisions for light rail, for 22 example, in the reg really covers street cars? 23 Street cars are kind of a new and different 24 thing. 25 Of the people who are operators, I'm172

1 interested in how many operate heavy rail, 2 rapid rail. Can I see a show of hands? One -- 3 (Simultaneous Discussion) 4 MR. HART: Clarify. Everything rail? 5 MR. CANNON: Subway systems. So there are 6 several, right? Three? Four. Commuter rail 7 we have quite a few? Inner-city is only 8 Amtrak? Oh, you're right, you guys. And 9 manufacturers because I'm interested in whether 10 we are going to have -- whether we need -- if 11 we need to write a separate section for street 12 cars, we need to know what the differences are 13 between that and a light rail. 14 So of the manufacturers, how many build 15 light rail cars? One? Two. And heavy rail, 16 I'm assuming, and probably commuter? Okay. So 17 we have got people who can speak to things like 18 the need for standards that might be different 19 for light rail already on the committee. Okay. 20 That helps. 21 CHAIR ALTOM: Were we ever able to get 22 Mr. Millis? 23 MR. CAPOZZI: We have him on the phone 24 now. 25 MS. MARTIN: Linda Martin, FRA. I had a173

1 question because the gentleman from Siemens 2 brought up the gap-filler question quite a bit. 3 It is one of the biggest challenges we have for 4 inner-city rail, has to do with the gaps and 5 the gaps that are created. So I'm just 6 wondering if the other manufacturers here have 7 similar solutions and whether only Siemens 8 could bring that sort of knowledge to the 9 table. 10 MR. GAGNE: I believe the gentleman from 11 Siemens was talking about gap feeders -- we 12 have some solutions as well for light rail. 13 For heavy rail, I don't remember seeing one, 14 except for something that is portable for not 15 electric or automatic. 16 MR. CORAN: We have a gap filler in Europe 17 that is on the general system. What we will 18 call intercity commuter rail in this country. 19 CHAIR ALTOM: Where are we -- 20 MS. BUNALES: Operator is dialing the 21 number now. 22 CHAIR ALTOM: We need to take a break in a 23 moment. We do have a couple of gentlemen. My 24 CART is ready. She told me she works for two 25 hours and hits me on the back of the head. It174

1 has been two hours. 2 MR. GRETHER: Paul Grether with the APTA 3 street car subcommittees. The issue of gap 4 fillers, the subcommittees has prepared a white 5 paper and has done research on light rail and 6 street cars using bridge plates and all those 7 technologies. That is a real hot button for us 8 because the current regulations predated a lot 9 of that technology and there are some real 10 accessibility barriers we identified there that 11 we would like to share with the group. 12 MR. SAUCIER: First, for the record, Ricon 13 does have a bridge plate device fitable in many 14 different systems, light and heavy rail. 15 As far as the question, the gentleman at 16 the microphone mentioned a white paper. I 17 would be interested to take a look at it. If 18 he could get with me afterwards and tell me 19 where I could find it. 20 MS. BUNALES: I have a note from the 21 operator, that no dice. Voice mail message on 22 the cellphone number. 23 MS. MAZZ: We left voice mails on two 24 different phone numbers. 25 MS. BUNALES: Am I altering the ballot175

1 again? 2 CHAIR ALTOM: What is our pleasure? 3 MR. CAPOZZI: I would address the rest of 4 them. 5 CHAIR ALTOM: I know on our ballot that we 6 have they are listed. Vote how you would like, 7 is what my suggestion would be. They have had 8 ample time to be here. 9 So I suggest that we hand out our -- if we 10 are ready for those. If we let folks have 11 their ballots -- 12 MS. GOLDEN: I thought you said we were 13 going to go through all the presentations and 14 if we had any discussions we will have that. 15 CHAIR ALTOM: We will do that too but I 16 want the ballots. I want everyone to have the 17 lists out. We can have our discussions. We 18 can hand the ballots out and we can take a few 19 minutes of a break too so folks can see a man 20 about a dog, as we like to say in the south. 21 Say 15 after we are back. 22 (Whereupon, a recess was taken 23 from 4:07 p.m. to 4:17 p.m.) 24 CHAIR ALTOM: As we come back, we passed 25 around the ballots and you should have a ballot176

1 in front of you. 2 Any more discussion anyone would like to 3 have? I know Marilyn had mentioned we would 4 have discussion again. I would like to honor 5 that. Anybody have any last discussion they 6 would like to talk about any of our potential 7 applicants here? 8 MS. GOLDEN: I was going to say the thing 9 about -- we talked about New Jersey and the 10 lost and finding of their application. I don't 11 know, that just seems compelling more to me. I 12 think they would be on if that didn't happen. 13 I appreciate the Board being honest with that. 14 Paper mistake anyone can make. And there is a 15 fairness argument somewhere in there. 16 CHAIR ALTOM: Any other comments or 17 questions? 18 MR. MICHEL: I just think it is very 19 important for us to be voting for the most 20 positive outcome. I don't think anybody who 21 has presented for inclusion in this committee 22 has given us any reason why they are coming to 23 the committee for anything but a positive 24 outcome. And I know we are concerned about 25 balance. And given the numbers that Paul gave177

1 us earlier, I don't think that would be in 2 jeopardy. So that is just RailPlan's position. 3 And I think it's a good thing that they 4 presented. 5 MR. HOLBROOK: Just by the numbers that 6 were given here, even with two or three more 7 service providers added and an additional car 8 builder, we still don't come to the numbers of 9 advocacy groups and others. I don't see a -- I 10 see it creating a better balance. 11 MR. HUNTER: I concur as well. I think 12 looking at the makeup, even with the inclusion 13 with the people today, we still have a very 14 good balance, people that are representing some 15 of the best and brightest minds in the industry 16 coming from the angles that are important, 17 which is the disability community. So we know 18 what the needs are from the supplier industry 19 so we know what the abilities are, and from the 20 transit providers who implement these for many 21 years to come operationally and as far as 22 equipment. 23 I was favorably impressed with all 24 participants, except WMATA. I think Janice 25 brought up a very good point. Siemens had178

1 somebody fly from Sacramento to come here -- a 2 painful journey I'm very familiar with -- 3 (Chorus of Laughter) 4 MR. HUNTER: -- just in order to make 5 their appeal. They want to participate and 6 contribute. And I think it is surprising that 7 I walked from Metro Center here in about five 8 minutes in the freezing bitter cold that I'm 9 not used to and that WMATA didn't come. And I 10 think Janice made a good point. We need people 11 who will show up and contribute. 12 I think the six we talked to all made some 13 pretty good arguments. Anyway, that is my 14 personal take on it. 15 CHAIR ALTOM: Thank you. 16 Dennis? 17 MR. CANNON: Yeah. Points taken, but -- 18 well, let me put it this way. One of the 19 things that we don't really need is American 20 Public Transit Association. That may sound 21 weird because it is a train organization. 22 On the other hand, if we put APTA on the 23 Board, we should probably get rid of all the 24 other operators. That does seem to me 25 overkill. APTA has all the good folks, we179

1 already determined, who are riding the systems 2 of the various types and the manufacturers who 3 make the cars and the various types are already 4 here. Having APTA would be nice to say "APTA 5 endorses it," but I don't see that they are 6 adding anything. 7 I would also like to say that I think 8 notwithstanding the comment from the gentleman 9 from Amtrak about Q'Straint, first of all, 10 there is no such thing as a universal tie-down. 11 There are none yet to be developed that are 12 automatic, except the ones from Portland, which 13 require a substantial modification in the 14 wheelchair before you can use it. 15 I think we are in -- look at the number of 16 different chairs in the room. My chair won't 17 work in Q'Straint except I made modifications 18 to it. The idea it might be nice having 19 something secured in the train, I don't think 20 is practical. Let's face it, in a crash 21 situation all bets are off; no securement 22 system will hold a wheelchair in place. That 23 is true of buses too. Bus goes and crash -- 24 The Q'Straint person said the Chair is not 25 supposed to move two inches in any direction.180

1 That is a portion of the securement 2 specification itself. So that doesn't apply 3 when there is no securement required. 4 MR. WEISMAN: I just wanted to mention the 5 restraint systems too. While I realize that 6 moving trains and wheelchairs not being secured 7 has always been an issue, I always think that 8 if we change the standards to require 9 restraints, it would be a way to keep people 10 off -- or it would end up keeping people off 11 trains and not getting them on. 12 When I started doing this work, that was 13 always the issue, "You are going to get hurt." 14 But people were willing to take the risk, or 15 whatever you want to call it, because they 16 wanted to travel. 17 It used to be, "You shouldn't go upstairs 18 in the building because if there is a fire and 19 the elevator is out of service, you are stuck 20 up there. So we will do the right thing for 21 you and keep you out of the building." And we 22 have come a long way since then. 23 But I always have a fear the safety issue 24 is a double-edged sword. It would be great if 25 it was universal; it would be great if it was181

1 easy. 2 The fellow from Q'Straint may have 3 business development in it. I might be wrong. 4 Obviously there is business to develop here. 5 We don't require it now. Maybe we will end up 6 requiring that after we have our discussion and 7 Q'Straint can develop the business. I don't 8 know we want business development. I am 9 probably being mean and probably makes the 10 world safe for democracy too. 11 You know, I just feel a little awkward 12 about that, having restraint as a component. 13 If we decide it is a component, then they get 14 involved, I guess, where we are going with it. 15 CHAIR ALTOM: Stan and Robert. 16 MR. HUNTER: I would just like to 17 respectfully disagree with Dennis on APTA. I 18 worked with APTA for many years on standard 19 development. They have developed and proved 20 hundred of standards and rail things like 21 emergency preparedness, signage, lighting, 22 structural, inspection, maintenance and I can't 23 even name all of the topics because there are 24 so many. And they do it through a consensus 25 process, representing large transit operators182

1 to the small ones who could never be 2 represented because they don't have the staff, 3 small agencies, Houston, Phoenix. 4 There are a number of small agencies that 5 APTA would be able to represent via liaison of 6 this group and the dozens and dozens of rail 7 systems operators throughout the country. 8 And I think it would also lend a degree of 9 credibility to us that we are bringing in a 10 companion standards organization that 11 represents exactly what we are doing. We are 12 doing standard development for transit 13 vehicles. And who would be better on our group 14 than the American Public Transportation 15 Association. 16 CHAIR ALTOM: I have Robert and Blair and 17 Marilyn and John and Ross. 18 MR. CARLSON: I would like to point out 19 here in D.C. a lot of rail cars, most, if not 20 all, have a wheelchair securement in the corner 21 in an alcove by the door. In 19 years of 22 riding, I have never used or seen anyone use 23 one to the point you don't want to be stuck in 24 the corner with a crowd around you when you 25 want to get off.183

1 The other point, more times than not I 2 have been someone else's securement -- 3 (Chorus of Laughter) 4 MR. CARLSON: -- trying to keep them from 5 falling over. With a much lower center of 6 gravity, I have never had that concern. It is 7 still an issue of where to sit and how to be 8 most efficient in sitting in a car and I have 9 noticed a number of people who have adopted 10 good seating positions that minimize the impact 11 on other passengers. 12 But, again, it is not something that you 13 can teach. It is not something that you can 14 codify in any way. But the idea, maybe it can 15 be addressed in some way, but I don't know that 16 it is yet ready for a requirement. 17 CHAIR ALTOM: Blair. 18 MR. SLAUGHTER: I have two things I want 19 to address. One is the issue of APTA. In 1990 20 APTA existed primarily as a group that 21 represented suppliers to the industry. And it 22 was not even taken seriously by a lot of people 23 at the railroads. 24 Now APTA has since picked up what was long 25 the responsibility of the American Association184

1 of Railroads and other things that had been -- 2 that did not have a home, as the rail mass 3 transit industry in this country dwindled 4 almost to nothing. 5 And what has come out of APTA, I think, 6 has been, to Stanton's point, invaluable to the 7 industry and to the public. And I think that 8 they would be a vital member and they certainly 9 will be going forward. 10 APTA has taken a lot of very complex 11 documents from the federal side and added -- 12 made them understandable for agencies that 13 maybe don't have the depth of technical 14 knowledge who are shoestring operations and 15 even larger organizations, like New York City 16 and Amtrak can always lean back on those things 17 and go, "What does APTA say?" 18 If we have a question on how to do 19 something, I find myself in the APTA 20 recommended practices, first to make sure I 21 don't miss something my industry has already 22 labored over and I don't recreate something and 23 I learned from the beginning where they already 24 sorted things out. 25 So that is my spiel for APTA.185

1 On the issue of restraints, my point is 2 that -- and it may not need be that we need 3 someone from the manufacturer involved, but I 4 think we do need to have a discussion and start 5 now. 6 If you look at the lineage of 7 accessibility to mass transit back in the 60s 8 when the regs started being crafted, you have 9 to start. 10 As someone who went to work for the 11 railroad not because it was a job -- I picked 12 up everything I was doing and moved from the 13 north to the south, which was unheard of. You 14 can appreciate that, Billy. It was because I 15 felt like I could do something worthwhile for 16 people. It was a good thing to do. You don't 17 get rich at the railroad, that's for sure. 18 But we have to start. And if you -- I 19 always use the example going back to the very 20 earliest days of ADA and wheelchair restraints. 21 Amtrak had wheelchair restraints, as a 22 wheelchair was defined 20 some odd years ago. 23 It was a single clamp that clamped the wheel. 24 Now, if you had someone secured in a 25 wheelchair and put them in a high G accident,186

1 what you had left was a wheel clamped to the 2 wall. So to your point, that is valid. 3 But I think if we start somewhere -- and 4 it shouldn't be something that we look at and 5 say, "Okay, it is going to be an onerous thing 6 for everyone who has a wheelchair to go back 7 and retrofit everything." Let's start so we 8 can look forward to a point in time where 9 everyone can travel more safely and with 10 complete independence. 11 I think the heart and soul of the ADA, as 12 I remember working with Dennis Cannon years 13 ago, was individual independence, that you 14 didn't need someone always to tie your 15 wheelchair down or make sure you could get to 16 the restroom and those kinds of things. So I 17 think in the spirit of that we have to keep 18 that in mind. 19 Every time Amtrak has a situation, an 20 accident, a derailment, and I will use the one 21 that occurred in Nevada where the truck drove 22 through the side of our train, I see the train 23 sitting in the desert with the smoke pouring 24 out of it, the thing I'm most concerned about, 25 "Did I do my job? Are the things that I did,187

1 preserving life or taking life?" 2 And I promise you, when you read about 3 your coworkers and your passengers, they are no 4 longer -- they are not anymores. They are 5 people who don't go home because of someone's 6 actions or inactions or carelessness. 7 We have been very fortunate. I don't know 8 of a single incident where we can say there was 9 a major injury, even, from someone's whole 10 chair but I don't want it to ever be. 11 I would say let's consider starting so we 12 can avoid it ever occurring. We can do it in a 13 process as drawn out as it needs to be. I 14 don't want to throw that off the table. I 15 think we can consider those kinds of things 16 without threatening anyone's independence. 17 Thank you. 18 CHAIR ALTOM: Marilyn, John, Ross. 19 MS. GOLDEN: I want to also speak to the 20 application of APTA. It is true that they do a 21 lot of private voluntary standards work and I 22 think they may have been a boon for the 23 industry. I question seriously whether they 24 have been a boon to the disability community. 25 APTA started disability standards and I188

1 was active on it and got other advocates 2 involved. And they did a good job of bending 3 over backwards to have disability 4 participation, which was a nice gesture for 5 APTA and they have that. And then when the 6 disability groups had the temerity to not have 7 the consensus with the standards on the 8 industry groups, somehow all the activity 9 stopped and there was never an explanation. 10 So we have not heard anything from them 11 for years for groups we were on. 12 You know, I don't want to hold old gripes 13 against organizations when things are not 14 problematic anymore, but some of these events 15 are quite recent. I have not seen a lot of 16 interest out of APTA for supporting 17 accessibility. So I don't think they are 18 appropriate here. 19 I think Dennis is hearing if providers are 20 fungible, put them on and take everyone off. I 21 don't think that makes sense either because 22 different providers have different needs. And 23 I'm sorry they won't get my vote today. 24 The thing about Q'Straint, Bob said a lot, 25 I'm filled with terror when I think about --189

1 someone is always around in a bus. But the 2 idea of being secured in a train and you can't 3 get yourself off, I don't even want to think 4 about it. 5 And the idea of rail as a marketing 6 opportunity is of great concern. 7 CHAIR ALTOM: Thank you. 8 MR. HOLBROOK: Blair covered most of what 9 I wanted to say. In regards to APTA, a lot of 10 good regulations. Seem as though they revise 11 them a lot. Wasn't aware of the last one and I 12 pulled one up and it was a totally new format. 13 I think there is overlap with things with 14 emergency lighting, signage, things that are 15 put on paper. And believe me when the specs 16 come out, the consultants and the authorities 17 to fill it up with as much APTA compliance they 18 can get. 19 I think from the standpoint of -- I think 20 there is some cross-work there we would benefit 21 from and maybe get things incorporated in their 22 next revision. 23 MR. CAPON: On APTA I would draw the 24 analogy with Railway Advisory Committee where 25 the railroads and individual railroads are190

1 represented and I don't think there is a 2 redundancy, so I'm voting for APTA. 3 MS. LYONS: Maybe I should abstain and I 4 am not going to. I am on the APTA Executive 5 Committee. They are meeting today. May be why 6 WMATA is not available today. Keep an open 7 mind why they are not here today. There are 8 reasons people are not here today and maybe 9 tomorrow. 10 I don't know if anyone knows about 11 Quantum. I know no one has talked about it. 12 It is a bar that comes down, a product they are 13 working on now. And it could be something. 14 Use an open mind. You may not be stuck. You 15 may be able to get it away from you or 16 whatever, you know. 17 I think we should keep an open mind. I'm 18 not advocating restraints or procurement, but I 19 think we should keep an open mind and hear 20 what's out there. I do agree we don't need a 21 product development person on the committee. I 22 don't think that is the what this committee 23 should be about. 24 Back to APTA. I think with all the talk 25 about APTA, if APTA were to be welcomed to the191

1 table, I think there is a mandate for APTA to 2 do some work and I think that hopefully with 3 relatively new leadership that message will be 4 received. Whether they are allowed at the 5 table or not, obviously I will go back and 6 share some things that have been said today. 7 I don't think shutting them out is a way 8 to get things done. I think whether they are 9 at the table or not, I think dialogue with APTA 10 would be really helpful. They are going to 11 comment on the regs anyway. 12 So I just think -- but I would also, if 13 they are not at the table -- I hope it is not 14 just one person. I hope APTA will make sure 15 the guys and gals are on the standards 16 committee know when the meetings are so they 17 can listen in or people in the industry can 18 keep up with what is going on, rather than 19 waiting to hear about it at the last minute. 20 I don't think that is a healthy thing 21 either. There may be healthier ways to do it. 22 I ask people to keep an open mind on all 23 the things that is really bothering people. We 24 should probably listen to what other people 25 have to say.192

1 CHAIR ALTOM: Justin. 2 MR. VONASHEK: I just wanted to echo what 3 Stan said about APTA. I think it is extremely 4 important to allow them at the table and there 5 is a lot of value in what they bring. And Paul 6 spoke about street cars. And we don't have 7 street cars represented here. And I think that 8 is extremely important for street cars. I 9 think we should reconsider, some of us, and 10 allow them at the table sauce. 11 CHAIR ALTOM: Say your name please. 12 MR. SAUCIER: The other Stanton. 13 I just want to reiterate what the other 14 Stanton said earlier about APTA, sure -- they 15 have a representative role and represent 16 suppliers and operators, but they have a broad 17 depth of experience with rulemaking and that 18 sort of thinking. 19 With regard to Q'Straint, I'm not willing 20 to condemn them as marketers. The other side 21 of the coin that I think is important, the 22 woman on the right brought up Quantum, a new 23 product that Q'Straint is working on and is 24 representative of something new and different. 25 And new and different is a good thing when we193

1 are talking about looking forward after what 2 might be new rules. 3 That said, Q'Straint has taken the time to 4 petition the committee and they are not the 5 only restraint manufacturer in the world. I 6 don't know if there is anyone else out there 7 that is trying to. It is a progressive move 8 for them. I think on that basis we owe them a 9 consideration. Thank you. 10 MS. GOLDEN: I forgot to mention this 11 before when I was discussing APTA. The other 12 thing I noticed in their standards programs is 13 when they do an overview, because they are new 14 to the standards program, maybe it is different 15 now, but one of the arguments for it is sort of 16 escapes or avoids government regulation. That 17 is one of the four biggest goals of the private 18 standard setting program. 19 So those of us who have gotten our rights 20 solely through government requirements, find 21 ourselves resistant to that idea and it is just 22 an attitude I wish they didn't have and I don't 23 think belongs in the group. 24 CHAIR ALTOM: Stan 1. 25 MR. HUNTER: I would like to offer a194

1 counterpoint to that. I have been part of 2 several committees of APTA that have worked 3 hand in hand with the FRA to address the need 4 that either the FRA has identified or the 5 National Transportation Safety Board has 6 identified. And APTA and the railroads and the 7 suppliers and Volpe has all worked 8 collaboratively to develop standards, knowing 9 the standards would then be incorporated into 10 regulation through reference. And we have done 11 it for emergency lighting and signage, side 12 door, structural integrity and crash worthiness 13 of vehicles, all of which have been 14 incorporated in rulemaking. 15 And APTA has been in the leader position 16 for bringing industry, properties the supplier, 17 government, research altogether to a product 18 that at the end 0 the day does the best job to 19 satisfy as many needs of all the constituents 20 as possible in order to come up with a doable 21 result. 22 So I respectfully disagree. 23 CHAIR ALTOM: We have one last comment. 24 MR. HART: I wanted to be clear that I'm 25 going to take all of this commentary back to195

1 the Board and let all the Board members know 2 the discussion has occurred. For those of you 3 who I know is aware of the history of 4 disability rights in transit, it might be 5 worthwhile to actually take a read, To Ride the 6 Public Buses. I think that would be 7 educational in terms of how certain things like 8 restraints are viewed. It is good to have a 9 discussion and it is very worthwhile to have 10 that discussion. 11 I think the Board was very clear that they 12 wanted this committee to be broadly 13 representative of industry, of folks with 14 disabilities and of provider services. I would 15 just ask that you keep that in mind because it 16 is going to be a challenge to maintain balance, 17 depending on how many folks. 18 With that I would suggest that we vote. 19 CHAIR ALTOM: Good idea. That is what I 20 suggest to. You have your ballots in front of 21 you. Many have filled them out. Those who 22 have not, hold them up in the air. I see 23 Marsha will grab them from you. 24 MS. MAZZ: Only because I can't read them. 25 CHAIR ALTOM: If you notice up on the196

1 Board, we have our agenda and today we have 2 gotten through almost everything. There are 3 two points we did not make it to and one of 4 those is establishing future meeting dates and 5 the other is the review of current rail 6 guidelines and established comment priorities. 7 We will do the public comment priority before 8 we leave -- committee priorities, excuse me. 9 So what I would like to propose -- and I 10 already see people's heads nodding and I have 11 not said anything -- that we move those two 12 tomorrow's agenda. Because if you look at 13 tomorrow's agenda, you see committee work. I 14 think review of current rail guidelines is 15 committee work. I think that is a perfect fit. 16 Put that in there. 17 Would you like to look at potential 18 meeting dates -- you want to do that tomorrow? 19 Excellent. That leaves me with one final thing 20 that I would like to do is first off see if 21 there are any final comments from here. I 22 would like to get public comment from folks who 23 braved it out for us today, if they have 24 anything they would like to add. 25 MR. HUNTER: One housekeeping idea for197

1 tomorrow is some folks -- I know I'm speaking 2 for myself. I'm going to be leaving early 3 afternoon. I have to get out to Dulles to 4 catch a flight to go back home. So if we can 5 do things before lunch, such as setting meeting 6 dates and whatever kind of essential for the 7 committee, so we can prioritize tomorrow so if 8 some of us have to leave early we can do so 9 without disrupting the organization. 10 CHAIR ALTOM: That would be my goal. 11 MR. MICHEL: I won't be able to be here 12 tomorrow but I will be calling in and will be 13 on the phone. My presence will be here, just 14 not sitting in the seat. 15 CHAIR ALTOM: Crystal, will you be able to 16 participate by phone tomorrow? 17 MS. LYONS: It would be nice when the 18 meeting date, the time setting would be. I can 19 break away, but, no, not the whole day. 20 CHAIR ALTOM: I think that is the most 21 important thing. 22 MS. LYONS: I thought we were going to do 23 it today, which is the reason to be here. And 24 I was quiet most of the day so we could get 25 through and get priorities done, but that198

1 didn't work. 2 CHAIR ALTOM: Do we have everybody's 3 ballot? We have them all, Marsha. Thank you. 4 Now, we have an opportunity to hear from 5 the public. Anybody in the audience that has 6 any burning desire to speak and address the 7 group today? 8 Yes, sir. 9 <<<: When will you decide the meeting 10 vote -- will you decide the meeting dates while 11 we are waiting for the vote? 12 CHAIR ALTOM: We have 10 minutes that we 13 could establish the meeting dates. We can try. 14 That may be easier said than done. Bear with 15 us one moment, please. 16 We are fixing to pull up a calendar behind 17 us on the screen and I will read it for those 18 who might not be able to read the screen. 19 Part of our task will be we have three 20 more meetings prior to October 1 of 2014. They 21 discovered new documents for Area 51. Reading 22 the news. For the believers, I'm an ancient 23 alien kind of guy. 24 MR. HUNTER: The minor baseball team in 25 Las Vegas is the Area 51s.199

1 CHAIR ALTOM: We are looking at the Access 2 Board's website. 3 (Simultaneous Discussion) 4 CHAIR ALTOM: As we are looking at our 5 calendars, if you have your January 2014 6 calendar available, what does the 6th and 7th, 7 which is a Monday and Tuesday -- 6, 7 or 8th 8 January 2014? 9 <<<: Will the next meeting be one day or 10 two days? 11 CHAIR ALTOM: Two days. 12 MR. HUNTER: If you can avoid it on a 13 Monday, because it will take me all day to get 14 back here. 15 CHAIR ALTOM: So what does 7th and 8th 16 look like to the group? Everybody seems to be 17 nodding in agreement. 18 MR. WEISMAN: Wait, wait. 19 CHAIR ALTOM: Look at Jim Weisman. 20 MR. WEISMAN: I don't know how to work 21 this thing. I need a 14 year old. 22 MS. LYONS: TRB is right after that. Can 23 we be real close to that so I don't have to go 24 home and come back? 25 CHAIR ALTOM: Would you prefer 9th?200

1 MR. CAPOZZI: Our concern is the 2 Continuing Resolution for the government ends 3 on January 15 and there is no predicting what 4 Congress is going to do so we may not have 5 money to meet after January 15. 6 MS. LYONS: I just meant a day or two 7 later than the 7th or 8th. I am not the only 8 one. Several people are going to be going to 9 TRB. 10 MR. CAPOZZI: We can't do it the 13, 14 11 and 15th because that is when the Board meets. 12 MS. LYONS: I meant instead of Tuesday and 13 Wednesday, Wednesday and Thursday or Thursday 14 and Friday. I don't know why you don't want to 15 do the Monday. 16 <<<: What week is TRB? 17 MS. LYONS: The workshop starts on Sunday. 18 MR. CAPOZZI: We can do Thursday and 19 Friday. We can move the webinar to the 10th 20 floor. 21 CHAIR ALTOM: So 9 and 10. How does that 22 look for folks? A bad one for a few. 23 MR. VONASHEK: I think it is okay for 24 everybody. 25 MR. CAPOZZI: That was good.201

1 CHAIR ALTOM: I thought it was thumbs 2 down. 3 So we will say the 9th and 10th, looks 4 like. 5 <<<: What time? 6 MR. CAPOZZI: Same bat time, same bat 7 channel. 8 CHAIR ALTOM: So January 9:00 from 10:00 9 to 5:00 and January 10 from 9:00 to 3:00, right 10 here in this very room. 11 MR. CAPOZZI: Try April. 12 CHAIR ALTOM: Our next meeting then, if we 13 look at April. Passover begins at sundown on 14 the 14th. You like Thursday, Fridays? 15 MS. LINTZ: Just saying that that is Good 16 Friday. 17 CHAIR ALTOM: The week before. To me 18 every Friday is good. 19 MS. LINTZ: I didn't want to have any 20 religious issues since I'm bringing up 21 passover. 22 CHAIR ALTOM: So what does 10th and 11th 23 look like for folks of April? 24 MR. HART: Sold. 25 CHAIR ALTOM: April 10 and 11.202

1 We just need one more. See if we can 2 hammer out one more. July is packed with the 3 National Council for Independent Living, I have 4 ADA celebration and a couple of different 5 stabbing things. 6 Do you want to look at the end of June? 7 Stick with our August. We are generally 8 meeting toward the first two weekends. 9 MS. LINTZ: How about the first week after 10 Labor Day? 11 CHAIR ALTOM: That is fine with me. 12 MS. LINTZ: Before the October. How about 13 the 11th and 12th? 14 CHAIR ALTOM: Janice, what is your 15 suggestions? 16 MS. LINTZ: I was thinking the 11th and 17 12th. 18 Does that sound cool to everybody, 19 September 11, September 12 of 2014? 20 Thank you, all very much. You knocked 21 another thing off my agenda. That is sweet. 22 So remember tomorrow morning we will come back 23 here. We will convene back in the room at 9:00 24 a.m. We will pick up with our -- we will 25 announce our new members and then we will start203

1 right off with our review of current rail 2 guidelines and start to work, get our hands 3 dirty, figure out what our issues are, which 4 direction we go. 5 So any other comments or questions for the 6 day? Hearing none, I will adjourn us until 7 9:00 a.m. in the morning. Thank you all very 8 much. I appreciate it. 9 (Whereupon, at 5:03 p.m. the meeting 10 was adjourned.) 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25