### Capital Reporting Company

Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-18-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 1

COMMERCIAL/INDUSTRIAL PUMPS WORKING GROUP

FEB 0714-1-EE-2J

Wednesday, June 18, 2014

Department of Energy 1000 Independence Avenue SW Forrestal Building Washington, DC 20585

### Capital Reporting Company

Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-18-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 2 1 A P P E A R A N C E S 2 DOUG BROOKMAN, Meeting Facilitator, Public Solutions, Inc. 3 LUCAS ADIN, U.S. Department of Energy 4 ASHLEY ARMSTRONG, U.S. Department of Energy 5 JEFFREY ALASCIO, ABB, Inc. 6 ROBERT BARBOUR, TACO, Inc. 7 ROBERT BOTELER, Nidec Motor Corporation 8 GREG CASE, Pump Design, Development and 9 Diagnostics 10 TOM ECKMAN, Northwest Power and Conservation Council 11 GARY FERNSTROM, California Investor-Owned 12 Utilities 13 MARK HANDZEL, Xylem, Inc. 14 ALBERT HUBER, Patterson Pump Company 15 JOANNA MAUER, Appliance Standards Awareness Project 16 DOUGLAS POTTS, American Water 17 JAY SIVIGNY, Flowserve Corporation 18 LOUIS STARR, Northwest Energy Efficiency 19 Alliance 20 GREG TOWSLEY, Grundfos 21 MEG WALTNER, Natural Resources Defense Council 22 DANIEL WEINTRAUB, Navigant Consulting, Inc.

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Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-18-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 3 1 A P P E A R A N C E S (Continued) 2 SARAH WIDDER, Navigant Consulting, Inc. 3 ALISON WILLIAMS, Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22

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Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-18-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 4 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 MR. BROOKMAN: -- individuals have not 3 had a chance to join us yet. But we hope they'll 4 join us shortly here. Good morning, everyone. 5 This is U.S. Department of Energy's Commercial and 6 Industrial Pumps Negotiated Rulemaking Working 7 Group. We're okay, right? 8 Today is June 18th, 2014. This is the 9 second day of the seventh meeting and we made 10 tremendous progress yesterday, I'm pleased to 11 report. 12 So I'm hoping that that will continue 13 today and I'm rather -- actually quite certain it 14 will. Let's start by just doing introductions 15 around the room. I think everyone's pretty used 16 to these systems by now. 17 MS. SIVIGNY: Jay Sivigny, Flowserve 18 Corporation. 19 MR. BARBOUR: Bob Barbour, TACO. 20 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson. 21 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel, Xylem. 22 MR. CASE: Greg Case, Hydraulic

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Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-18-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 5 1 Institute. 2 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg Towsley, Grundfos. 3 MR. BOTELER: Rob Boteler, Nidec. 4 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary Fernstrom, 5 representing the California Investor-owned 6 Utilities, PG&E, SCE, SDG&E and SoCal Gas. 7 MR. ECKMAN: Tom Eckman, Northwest Power 8 and Conservation Council. 9 MR. STARR: Louis Starr, NEEA. 10 MR. POTTS: Doug Potts, American Water. 11 MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer, Appliance 12 Standards Awareness Project. 13 MR. ADIN: Lucas Adin, U.S. Department 14 of Energy. 15 MR. WEINTRAUB: Dan Weintraub, Navigant. 16 MR. ALASCIO: Jeff Alascio, ABB. 17 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thanks to all of 18 you. And Sarah, who is at the podium, needs no 19 introduction. She'll be presenting here shortly. 20 Let me welcome Doug Potts, who was online 21 yesterday. For those of you who have sat through 22 online presentations all day long, that's

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Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-18-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 6 1 something of a slog. 2 So thanks for doing that and nice to 3 have you available for a vote, a very important 4 vote yesterday where we established the standard 5 level that's going to go in the term sheet. So 6 that really, a big breakthrough for the working 7 group. 8 Does anybody wish to say anything here 9 at the outset before we get into the content? The 10 content today, we're going to start with test 11 procedure and Sarah has a slide deck and that she 12 assures me is the logical progression that then 13 leads us to metric -- the metric. And so, we'll 14 see if that's true. 15 MS. WIDDER: Ye of little faith. 16 MR. BROOKMAN: Comments here at the 17 outset? I see Lucas is poised. 18 MR. ADIN: You've recognized my poised 19 work. Thanks, Doug. I just wanted to lead off 20 with a couple of things. 21 MR. BROOKMAN: A new father and poised 22 at the same time, I must say.

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Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-18-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 7 1 MR. ADIN: So just to kind of set things 2 up from our perspective, we wanted to make sure 3 that we understood what we were trying to cover 4 today or really today and tomorrow, the remainder 5 of the meeting. The one main item that we have, 6 material item we have yet to produce is the term 7 sheet. 8 So we're going to come up with kind of a 9 draft, just a listing of all of the things that we 10 voted on as a group for everyone to review, to 11 look at the language we discussed yesterday to 12 make sure it's -- it accurately captures the 13 intent of the working group with each item that we 14 voted on so that we can vote out a final term 15 sheet as the final product of this group and 16 ideally that'll be before we finish tomorrow. 17 So we'll try and have a draft sometime 18 today that we can send out to everyone so you can 19 provide us with whatever feedback you have on the 20 language. If we need to tweak it today or 21 tomorrow, we can do that and get ready to vote 22 out.

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Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-18-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 8 1 The material for today, we just wanted 2 to do another overview of the test procedure and 3 the metric, make sure that we've captured 4 accurately whatever input this group has for DOE. 5 This isn't material that the group needs to vote 6 on necessarily. But we wanted to make sure that 7 we have as good as an idea as possible about what 8 this group believes is the best approach on these 9 things so that when DOE writes up a proposal for a 10 proposed test procedure rule, it will as nearly as 11 possible reflect all the input that we've received 12 from you all. 13 So procedurally the way that would work 14 is DOE will publish this proposal and obviously 15 you'll get another opportunity to provide your 16 feedback and written comments and we'll have a 17 public meeting for the test procedure for that 18 proposal and you'll have another opportunity to 19 make whatever comments you want on that. 20 So to the extent it doesn't capture 21 whatever it is that you wanted to express here or 22 there are other things you wanted to think of

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Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-18-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 9 1 between now and when we publish that proposal, 2 you'll have an opportunity to give us that 3 feedback. So but, you know, like I said, I think 4 we just want to make sure that we've gotten as 5 good an idea as we can in advance about what we 6 want to propose. 7 So I think that's about it. There are a 8 few things that we've been discussing all along 9 that it seems like the group is mostly in 10 agreement with but a few other things, you know, 11 that we'd like to make sure we've nailed down. 12 MR. BROOKMAN: I wanted to confirm one 13 or two things here at the outset. Yesterday, as 14 we began this three-day meeting, a few individuals 15 mentioned to me that they'd like, if at all 16 possible, to conclude the work of this working 17 group in the span of this three-day meeting. And 18 of course, those days in July are there in the 19 event we need them. I think we always thought of 20 them as being backup dates. 21 So I'm thinking following that -- those 22 ideas, that suggestion from those individuals

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Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-18-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 10 1 yesterday, that we should try and conclude the 2 work of this working group, if at all possible, in 3 the span of these three days, unless other folks 4 have different ideas. Louis? 5 MR. STARR: Actually, what Lucas was 6 saying, I thought the ground rules was that you 7 can comment in the NOPR if -- you don't really 8 want to just open up the same comments that we had 9 in negotiation. 10 So I think the idea is that if you 11 didn't have -- if you had a negative one that you 12 could comment, put it in the NOPR but otherwise 13 you're sort of going along with what we're working 14 towards in this group. So that's -- 15 MR. BROOKMAN: My interpretation, and 16 I'll rely on Lucas and others, maybe the general 17 counsel, to amplify this. The scope of this 18 working group didn't include test procedure. 19 MR. ADIN: That's right. The NOPR I was 20 referring to is for the test procedure, not the 21 standards. 22 MR. STARR: So not this, the standard

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Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-18-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 11 1 levels. 2 MR. ADIN: That's right, correct. 3 MR. BROOKMAN: So every individual in 4 this room, in addition to the input that we're 5 going to provide today and perhaps tomorrow, every 6 individual in this room would be free to comment 7 however he or she would want to on the notice of 8 proposed rulemaking for the test procedure. 9 MR. STARR: Okay. 10 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary Fernstrom? 11 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. So one of 12 the things we agreed would go in the term sheet 13 was a follow-on activity dealing with circulators 14 and pool pumps. And I'm wondering whether it 15 might not be possible or desirable to use some 16 part of the July meeting to address those topics. 17 MR. BROOKMAN: I think it's certainly 18 worth considering and I myself am entirely 19 agnostic on this question. I'm reflecting back 20 what I heard from members saying that they'd like 21 to conclude the work at this meeting. So, but 22 it's something we could -- this working group

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Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-18-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 12 1 could discuss. 2 MR. FERNSTROM: So those two things 3 aren't mutually exclusive. But I don't know how 4 DOE views the follow-on activity and what 5 requirements it may or may not have. 6 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. And Lucas, do we 7 know anything at this point about a follow-on 8 activity? 9 MR. ADIN: Well, my understanding all 10 along, and I mean, I can certainly get 11 clarification on this if we need it, but was that 12 that follow-on activity would be treated as a 13 separate proceeding from this one. So those July 14 meetings are part of this activity and I mean, 15 certainly we could get together and discuss 16 things. But it wouldn't be something where we 17 could vote or actually have a material output. It 18 would just be a discussion, an informative 19 discussion. 20 MR. FERNSTROM: So, so thank you. In 21 view of that, the question would be whether or not 22 we think it might be productive to have an

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Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-18-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 13 1 informal start to that activity that might get us 2 reasonably well down the road. So when the formal 3 charter comes along, we'll be closer to 4 resolution. 5 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you for 6 that. I personally made a big note about those 7 elements that were included -- that would be 8 included in the term sheet. So we'll make sure 9 they're in there. 10 And then, I'd like to though suggest 11 that we park a time slot to continue this 12 discussion a little bit later on today and then 13 meantime other members in this group can discuss 14 among themselves or within their caucuses how they 15 might like to approach that. 16 So maybe when we return from lunch, 17 we'll take up the issue about where we think we 18 are, where that fits with the July meeting dates 19 and then the pool pump business as well, okay, 20 when we return from lunch. So if there's nothing 21 else there at the outset, Tom Eckman, please. 22 MR. ECKMAN: Yeah, I think it might be

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Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-18-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 14 1 helpful to have John around to give us ideas about 2 -- I don't know what the work impact and 3 scheduling and all of those things. But what we're 4 looking for is a timeframe for the circular 5 discussions. 6 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 7 MR. ECKMAN: Whether, if it's productive 8 to do that or Lucas can get some information on 9 how that would be -- where the department -- you 10 know, how receptive the department is to 11 immediately taking up something when, you know, we 12 know their workload, so. 13 MR. BROOKMAN: And that of course would 14 be John Cymbalsky. 15 MR. ECKMAN: Yeah. 16 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas Adin? 17 MR. ADIN: Right. I can try and get 18 some input on that before the end of today, if I 19 can. 20 MR. ECKMAN: Great. 21 MR. ADIN: Certainly by the end of 22 tomorrow. Of course, it may be hard for John to

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Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-18-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 15 1 project that. 2 MR. ECKMAN: Yeah. 3 MR. ADIN: But we'll do the best we can. 4 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thanks. I welcome 5 any additional comments here at the outset before 6 we go to Sarah for presentation on test 7 procedures. And let me also welcome Meg Waltner, 8 who wasn't here at the -- as we first started. 9 Okay, Sarah? 10 MS. WIDDER: Okay, thank you. So as 11 Doug mentioned, today we're going to talk a lot 12 about test procedure and then the format of the 13 presentation is going to be hopefully procedurally 14 accurate. 15 So it really describes how one would go 16 about testing a pump, translating that tested data 17 into inputs that would be fed into algorithms or 18 equations that we've discussed previously and then 19 how you would arrive at a PEI or whatever metric 20 that we've been discussing. So it's going to be 21 sort of from pump to metric that would be 22 certified to DOE for that given pump model.

### Capital Reporting Company

Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-18-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 16 1 So first, I know we've received a lot of 2 questions about the calculator. I just wanted to 3 address the calculator quickly. These are the 4 changes that have been made to the version 12 from 5 version 11. There's a list of these sent out and 6 requesting feedback from other members. We 7 received a few additional comments, but not many. 8 So mostly there's a few editorial 9 changes, not very important, reflecting the 10 nomenclature we agreed upon. Most of the more 11 substantive changes are addressing how the 12 calculator deals with motors. So we did update 13 the minimally compliant motor efficiency. I'll 14 note that they're the same efficiencies. So 15 really that was done already. 16 But we did add a line for 250 horsepower 17 motors since really what the new motor rulemaking 18 did was expand the scope of motors. So the 19 efficiency for motors greater than 200 horsepower 20 that might be paired with a very large pump that's 21 within our scope is now consistent. We updated 22 the C-values. We added a minimum efficiency table

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Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-18-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 17 1 for submersible motors. 2 The C-values were updated in two ways, 3 one based on the aggregated HI and DOE data which 4 was discussed yesterday, how it affected energy 5 savings. That data was -- and how that affected 6 energy savings. A number of pumps that fell out 7 was used to revise the C-value levels, as was 8 discussed yesterday. That might continue to be 9 revised and tweaked. This group really only cares 10 about PEI 25 at this point. 11 But we also limited the PEI levels that 12 are in the calculator, at least right now, to 10, 13 15, 20, 25, 30, 35, 40. And it could be further 14 limited to just PEI 25. You know, there's no 15 reason we couldn't reduce the complexity of it. We 16 added tabs to enter wire-to-water input data. 17 So if you had a pump and a motor 18 together, you could enter the input power to the 19 motor or the input power to the drive as opposed 20 to the pump shaft input power which is what the 21 calculator's designed to take now. And then, we 22 slightly revised the motor loss curve equations,

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Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-18-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 18 1 to be consistent with some new data that was 2 provided by NEMA that we'll discuss today. 3 I just wanted to throw this up there to 4 make sure this was everything everyone -- the 5 updates everyone was expecting to see, to accept 6 any other recommendations at this time so we can 7 limit the number of versions. I would really like 8 this version 12 to be the last calculator we ever 9 make, so -- 10 MR. HANDZEL: We're all in on that. 11 MS. WIDDER: Okay, great. So just is 12 there anything else that seems to be missing from 13 here? 14 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber? 15 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. 16 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson. Sarah, 17 if there are no other changes suggested, when will 18 this be ready? 19 MS. WIDDER: All of this is ready now. 20 But I wanted to wait because I foresaw sending it 21 and then having a discussion today that led me to 22 want to change something and then having more

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Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-18-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 19 1 versions. 2 So I wanted to wait until the end of 3 today when we had an in-depth test procedure 4 discussion and we were able to review this. But 5 if there are no other substantive changes, it's 6 done today. 7 MR. HUBER: Thank you. 8 MS. WIDDER: Yes. 9 MR. BROOKMAN: Jay? 10 MR. SIVIGNY: Hi, Sarah. 11 MS. WIDDER: Hi. 12 MR. SIVIGNY: Jay Sivigny, Flowserve. 13 Just wanted to confirm that the C-values that 14 you're going to be using in version 12 will 15 reflect a true PER 25. 16 MS. WIDDER: To the best of our ability. 17 MR. SIVIGNY: To the -- understanding 18 the complexities, okay. Thank you. 19 MS. WIDDER: Okay, and Alison and Dan 20 have an update. 21 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's find a microphone. 22 MS. WIDDER: Have a revision to that.

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Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-18-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 20 1 MR. BROOKMAN: You're creating anxiety 2 here, by the way. 3 MS. WIDDER: Yeah, I think -- so I'm 4 going to try and say what I think you're going to 5 say and then you can -- or you just go. 6 MS. WILLIAMS: Well, so we have to 7 update -- the only way we can update the C-values 8 to get exactly 25 percent cutoff is to iterate 9 using the calculator. And so, I don't know that 10 Dan and I can promise that that will be done 11 today. But we will do it as soon as we can. 12 MS. WIDDER: But I think that the other 13 thing -- so it will be closer to 25 than the 14 values we were using -- those preliminary C-values 15 we were using that were resulting in significant 16 differences than 25 percent cutoff, correct? 17 MS. WILLIAMS: I don't -- 18 MS. WIDDER: Okay, never mind. 19 MS. WILLIAMS: I don't know. 20 MR. BROOKMAN: Dan Weintraub? 21 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yeah, the other -- Dan 22 Weintraub, Navigant. The other thing that is --

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Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-18-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 21 1 there's going to be discussion on motor losses and 2 nailing all that down and all those things have to 3 be nailed down and locked in before we can iterate 4 to get you the value that we're going to lock in. 5 So we want to -- we're going to be very 6 close with these C-values and I think we can give 7 you the new C-values once the calculator is set 8 and we've locked in how we're going to do 9 everything. 10 MS. WIDDER: Yeah, I guess when I said 11 to the best of our ability, these C-values are the 12 most recent that we have. They're what was 13 presented yesterday in terms of energy use 14 analysis and they're very close to 25 percent. 15 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yeah, very close, and 16 we'll lock it in once everything's set. 17 MS. WIDDER: Yeah, but they're not 25.0, 18 like was discussed yesterday. 19 MR. BROOKMAN: Jeff, please use the 20 microphone right there. Yeah. 21 MR. ALASCIO: Jeff Alascio, from ABB. I 22 guess the question I have with these calculators,

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Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-18-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 22 1 I mean, are they made available to anyone? How do 2 we get a copy of it? 3 MS. WIDDER: We've been sending them out 4 to the working group. One thing I actually -- 5 that question makes a good point. So thank you 6 for that. One thing I wanted to emphasize about 7 this calculator is that this isn't like a formal 8 DOE template or tool of any sort. 9 This was just -- I designed this to be 10 helpful to the manufacturers in the working group 11 in terms of understanding how this metric affected 12 their given pump models. And so, combining data 13 they already had and had already provided to us so 14 they could play with it and sort of get a feel for 15 what this metric meant for them. 16 It is in no way, like, you know, the 17 template will look different. You could come up 18 with your own calculator. It was just meant to be 19 a helpful tool. To the extent that -- I mean, we 20 could put it in the docket. 21 MR. ADIN: It will be in the docket. 22 MS. WIDDER: Yeah.

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Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-18-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 23 1 MR. ADIN: I mean, everything that we 2 present at these meetings is public information. 3 So it'll go in the public docket if this one's not 4 -- if the previous ones aren't in there, I'll make 5 sure they're put in there. 6 MR. ALASCIO: (Off mic) -- the 7 calculator in the public docket. 8 MR. ADIN: Okay. We'll make sure that 9 we're in there. 10 MR. BROOKMAN: Use a mic. 11 MR. ALASCIO: It does impact -- (off 12 mic). 13 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah, so Jeff says he 14 hasn't seen it in the public docket. So and then 15 Lucas, that was Lucas speaking. He replied that 16 we'll make sure it's in there. Okay. 17 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. 18 MR. BROOKMAN: Back to Sarah. 19 MS. WIDDER: We'll discuss later on how 20 it may or may not affect drives. Right now, 21 there's probably minimal impact on drives. But 22 okay --

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Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-18-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 24 1 MR. BROOKMAN: But you made a really 2 important point there. I'm really glad you made 3 that point. 4 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. 5 MR. BROOKMAN: Because this isn't like 6 an endorsed product by DOE or anything like that. 7 MS. WIDDER: No, not by any stretch. 8 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, okay. 9 MS. WIDDER: Okay, so moving on then to 10 the actual pumps test procedure, so we're starting 11 with a pump -- a bare pump in a test stand and 12 that would be the default starting place for 13 testing a pump. And we anticipate testing in 14 accordance with HI 40.6, which is now publicly 15 available. 16 As specified in the procedure, you would 17 sweep the pump through seven points that are 18 specified, 40, 60, 75, 90, 100, 110 and 120 19 percent of the expected BEP of the pump. 20 And so, the way pumps are designed 21 hydraulically, they typically have a BEP in mind 22 that they're designed towards that may or may not

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Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-18-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 25 1 be the official tested BEP but they have this 2 nominal BEP that's associated with the pump 3 design. 4 And so, that's how those initial flow 5 rates would be specified. The head, torque, 6 speed, and flow rate would be captured at each of 7 these points using specific data acquisition 8 methods so that everyone is collecting data in the 9 same format with the same tolerances, same 10 accuracy. There's specification of the water that 11 can be used and how pressure is measured. 12 There's a lot of details in this test 13 procedure that ensure the accuracy and 14 repeatability of the collected data. 15 That data can be used to calculate the 16 efficiency at each of the flow points, each of 17 those seven flow points. And then the BEP, the 18 actual tested BEP of the pump is determined by 19 finding the maximum of a best fit curve of 20 efficiency versus flow rate. 21 And the test procedure also specifies, 22 or the HI 40.6 test procedure also specifies a

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Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-18-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 26 1 specific method for determining that regression 2 line so that it's not left up to the tester. 3 So with -- this is a sample table of the 4 data that you would get. You can see the 5 efficiency in the last green column there is a 6 calculation of the previous data and then you've 7 found the maximum. 8 This blue column is the efficiency based 9 on the best fit line and if we were to show the 10 data and the line, you know, sometimes it's a 11 little bit below or above, just like any 12 regression line. 13 And there's -- but that's -- the BEP is 14 determined and after that, the efficiency is not 15 an important metric for our test procedure moving 16 forward. We're really going to focus on that 17 yellow column, the shaft input power, moving 18 forward. And this is really the test procedure. 19 This is it, 40.6 capturing data of flow rate, 20 torque, head, and speed at each point. 21 We could get into a lot of the details 22 about how those measurements are taken. But I

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Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-18-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 27 1 don't think that's appropriate here. 40.6 is 2 available and that will be what we reference to 3 the extent possible. Yeah? 4 MR. BROOKMAN: So just pause there. So 5 conceptually, I thought that was clear. Based on 6 40.6, those are the elements that get measured. 7 All right, questions and comments on any or all of 8 this? Greg Case, you're on top of this, right? 9 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. 10 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 11 MS. WIDDER: Okay, great. All right, so 12 this is a sample curve that comes out of 40.6. The 13 top graph is the pump power input -- pump shaft 14 power input with respect to flow rate. And the 15 bottom curve is head and efficiency. The curved 16 line that's curvy, sloping up, is efficiency and 17 that corresponds with the right- hand axis. 18 And the pump head is this -- is the line 19 that's sloping down and corresponds to the left20 hand axis. 21 MR. BROOKMAN: This one? 22 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. So there's BEP

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Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-18-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 28 1 that's been determined on our curve based on the 2 methods specified in 40.6. We then determine a 3 BEP flow rate, a hundred percent of BEP flow rate 4 and then use that to specify the 25, 50, 75 5 percent and 110 percent of BEP flow rates that 6 will be used in subsequent calculations. 7 So we're all clear on that. Okay, so 8 after determining BEP flow rate, now this is just 9 all -- we've reached the part of the test 10 procedure that we do not collect more data. 11 This is all manipulation of data after 12 this point. After determining BEP flow rate, the 13 part load power is determined and this is 14 something -- this is something we've been thinking 15 about and discussing and we'll welcome feedback 16 on. 17 You'll notice that the tested data is 18 not exactly at, for example, 75 percent of BEP 19 flow rate. Okay, I'll stay back here. But and 20 similar for 110 percent. So we're not -- the 21 tested data point is not exactly at the flow rate 22 that we would like to rate that given pump. So we

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Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-18-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 29 1 need a method to translate the measured shaft 2 horsepower to the rated flow rate that we're 3 interested in. 4 The method -- by reviewing pump -- 5 available pump data, we've seen that in most cases 6 pump shaft input power has a linear trend with 7 flow rate. And so, we've used a linear regression 8 here to determine the flow rate at 75 and 110 9 percent of BEP flow. 10 And I will note that we're only using it 11 in that range. So we're not using the linear 12 regression to determine flow rate at very low flow 13 rates or very high flow rates. And so, if we can 14 agree that it's linear within this small range, 15 then a linear regression might be the best and 16 most consistent method. 17 Another -- other ways we could do it is 18 we could linearly interpolate between the points. 19 That would accommodate some amount of curve that 20 might be available. There's some pumps that will 21 drop off above BEP. So the 110 percent flow rate 22 may not follow the line and may actually decrease

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Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-18-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 30 1 below BEP. And a linear interpolation might 2 capture that a little bit better. 3 This last method is what's done in the 4 EU for circulators at least but also for pumps. 5 You have to hit the data -- you have to hit the 6 data point exactly, which would require you to 7 sweep the pump curve and either be really close to 8 the BEP the first time or re-sweep and calculate 9 and capture data at these specific points. 10 That's a slightly more burdensome 11 approach. And so, that's why we decided to go 12 with the linear regression. But I would welcome 13 comments on how to determine -- how best to 14 determine most accurately the pump shaft input 15 power at these specific flow points that we're 16 interested in for a given pump, now or in the 17 future. Don't have to accept comments now. 18 MR. BROOKMAN: Meg Waltner? 19 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. 20 MS. WALTNER: So Meg Waltner. I just 21 want to make sure I'm understanding this 22 correctly. So it seems like this method you've

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Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-18-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 31 1 proposed sort of wouldn't capture the actual curve 2 of the pump curve. So it would encourage 3 designing for peak efficiency at BEP only because 4 you're just calculating the other points or am I 5 missing something? 6 MS. WIDDER: So you're using the data 7 that was collected. So in this graph on the left, 8 those red and blue data points are all measured 9 data. 10 MS. WALTNER: For that specific pump. 11 MS. WIDDER: For that specific pump. 12 MS. WALTNER: I see. 13 MS. WIDDER: But you're regressing it 14 because you might have 58 percent of BEP flow and 15 80 percent of BEP flow but you don't have 75 16 percent of BEP flow. 17 MR. BROOKMAN: So you need the line. 18 MS. WIDDER: Yeah, so you need the line 19 in order to calculate the shaft input power, like 20 here, say. 21 MS. WALTNER: Okay, all right, okay, I - 22 -

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Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-18-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 32 1 MS. WIDDER: And so, it's do we linearly 2 interpolate these, do we make the line and just 3 plug in a number to get the value here or some 4 other method -- 5 MS. WALTNER: Yeah. 6 MS. WIDDER: That's what we're talking 7 about. 8 MS. WALTNER: Okay, I've got it now. 9 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. 10 MS. WALTNER: Sorry. I missed -- 11 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis Starr? 12 MR. STARR: Louis Starr, with NEEA. 13 Sounds like you should also maybe put a limit on 14 how much you could do that because you could 15 interpolate from a point that's very far away. 16 MS. WIDDER: Right. So that's the 17 benefit of doing a linear regression as opposed to 18 an interpolation. You're capturing the trend 19 better and you're less biased by perhaps erroneous 20 data points, which is why we chose the regression. 21 But then, the con is that may not be an 22 erroneous data point. There may actually be some

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 33 1 curve to the shape of the power versus flow 2 relationship, slight curve. 3 So like in this example, you can see 4 that power -- it's very linear until about a 5 hundred percent of BEP flow and that flattens out. 6 That is not atypical. 7 And so, we're reflecting a little bit 8 higher. If we're doing a linear regression 9 method, we would be reflecting a little bit higher 10 pump shaft input power at those high flow rates, 11 higher flow rates, than the pump actually 12 demonstrates. Yeah? 13 MR. STARR: Does 40.6 not have 14 something, not part of the test procedure or 15 doesn't handle this or -- 16 MR. BROOKMAN: That was Louis Starr. 17 Greg Case, use the microphone. 18 MR. CASE: We don't have a regression 19 technique built in -- 20 MALE: Can't hear. 21 MR. BROOKMAN: Microphone, please. Thank 22 you.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 34 1 MR. CASE: Greg Case, HI. We don't have 2 a regression technique built into that standard. 3 MS. WIDDER: So and HI 40.6 is really 4 designed to determine pump efficiency. That's the 5 more important metric in the pump industry. And 6 so, it does have a regression technique for the 7 flow -- efficiency versus flow curve that we'll be 8 relying on to determine BEP. 9 And so, I think it's reasonable that 10 40.6 doesn't have this regression. It's just the 11 fact that we are more interested in energy than 12 efficiency in the way we've constructed our metric 13 that we also need a way of regressing the power. 14 So just consider that. for the 15 subsequent slides, the data has been used -- has 16 been based on a tested pump that we had tested and 17 then we used a linear regression, this linear 18 regression that's shown here, to determine the 19 pump input power at the specific flow rates we 20 were interested in. So that's what's been done 21 here. But we could do something else. Yeah? 22 MR. CASE: Greg Case, HI. Louis, just

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 35 1 to clarify a little bit, during our -- we have a 2 weekly meeting with a bunch of the engineers from 3 different pump companies. And this is exactly how 4 we -- you know, we discussed many techniques to do 5 this. This is exactly what the group came up with 6 and said, you know, Sarah, that sounds like a 7 great idea, yeah. 8 MR. HANDZEL: That are based on that 9 input. 10 MS. WIDDER: Okay. Great. So this is 11 the same pump curve and now we're capturing a 12 little bit more data. You can see the blue 13 triangles now are the bare pump brake horsepower 14 that we're interested in moving forward -- 15 carrying forward into the metric calculation. 16 Those blue points are the manipulated 17 data that is based on the blue linear regression. 18 You can see it's a little bit higher than the 19 tested line at that -- those flow rates higher 20 than BEP. But it's really a very minor impact. 21 This is not -- it's like in the single 22 percent, less than a percent based on most of the

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 36 1 pump curves that we've looked at, which is not all 2 of them obviously. But we did try to gather as 3 much pump data as we could to come up with a 4 reasonable method. 5 This green triangle at 120 percent of 6 BEP flow is an extension of the linear regression 7 that we used to determine the pump shaft input 8 power at the specific flow rates in the metric. 9 However, that one's used for sizing the motor 10 only. 11 So we want to have a consistent approach 12 for sizing motors for bare pumps and for the 13 standard, the minimally compliant pump that would 14 be on the denominator of our index. And so, we've 15 sized that pump based on the input power at 120 16 percent of BEP flow and that flow, or that 17 horsepower rating is determined using that same 18 line. 19 And then, these blue -- the blue circles 20 on the head curve, I've noted that we use that 21 data to determine hydraulic output power. So 22 that's still relevant data for us. But really the

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 37 1 power curve -- the top graph with the blue 2 triangles and the green square -- are the most 3 important data for calculating our metric for a 4 given pump. 5 That hydraulic output power, those blue 6 dots, is used for matching the minimally compliant 7 pump to your pump. It's essentially used to make 8 sure that the minimally compliant pump and your 9 pump are exactly the same size, have exactly the 10 same hydraulic characteristics and are only 11 different based on pump efficiency essentially. 12 And then, you know, they use a minimally 13 compliant motor to the extent that your pump may 14 not. But that's how that data is used. It's used 15 to describe the minimally compliant pump that 16 you're going to be compared to. 17 Okay, so there's a couple options that 18 we can consider for testing based on the 19 configuration in which a bare pump is sold. This 20 is a summary slide. So I'm going to spend a 21 little bit of time here and then we're going to go 22 through examples of each of these cases.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 38 1 So across the top of the chart, you see 2 three different pump configurations that we've 3 been considering -- bare pump, bare pump plus 4 motor and bare pump plus motor and controls. 5 And then along the rows are the options 6 that can be applied to that situation. So for a 7 test -- and the three options that we're talking 8 about are testing a bare pump and then just taking 9 the data as we've been describing and manipulating 10 it to come up with a PEI rating. 11 The next option that we can consider is 12 testing the pump with a manufacturer motor as 13 opposed to the default motor that we would assume 14 based on a minimally compliant motor. And then 15 the third option is testing a pump with a motor 16 and controls in a full wire-to-water test. And 17 you can see how the options are played out in the 18 upper sort of triangle. 19 If you have a -- if you are just testing 20 the bare pump and then doing calculations, that's 21 applicable regardless of how the pump is sold. You 22 can just test the pump, the bare pump, and

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 39 1 multiply it or combine it with a DOE minimally 2 compliant motor and the default motor loss curves 3 and get a PEI. 4 All you ever had to do was test the pump 5 on a stand. Similarly, if you are selling the 6 pump paired with a motor, you could apply the same 7 procedure but instead of using a minimally 8 compliant motor, you could use the tested full 9 load efficiency of that motor that may be higher 10 than the DOE minimally -- the DOE minimum. But 11 the motor loss curve that you applied would be the 12 same potentially in this case. 13 The third option that if you were to 14 sell your pump with a motor and controls, you 15 could still only test the pump. It's in a pump 16 stand and then apply calculations using either 17 default or manufacturer motor information, the 18 default motor loss curves and a default system 19 curve that reflects a benefit of controls with no 20 additional testing. 21 So that is sort of the least burdensome 22 approach. But to -- yes?

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 40 1 MR. HUBER: Sarah, Al Huber. When this - 2 - when this rule is published, will it -- you're 3 describing that now. 4 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. 5 MR. HUBER: Will that description be in 6 part of the rule? 7 MS. WIDDER: It -- 8 MR. HUBER: In other words, you're 9 describing how you would actually do it. Is that 10 going to be part of the rule, I mean, as you've 11 described? 12 MS. WIDDER: Yeah, ad nauseam. 13 MR. ADIN: Right. 14 MR. HUBER: Thank you. All right, so -- 15 MS. WIDDER: It is going to be hundreds 16 of pages describing that. 17 MR. ADIN: Well -- 18 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas Adin -- 19 MS. WIDDER: Sorry. 20 MR. ADIN: Hopefully not hundreds, but - 21 - 22 MS. WIDDER: Yeah.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 41 1 MR. ADIN: Because I have to write some 2 of it too, but -- 3 MS. WIDDER: Right. 4 MR. ADIN: The way these -- I don't know 5 how many of these proposed rules you've seen. 6 MR. HUBER: I haven't. 7 MR. ADIN: Not many, but they're really 8 two -- there few sections but the main sections of 9 importance are what we call the regulatory text 10 which is actually the test procedure itself. 11 That's what goes in the regulations. And 12 then, everything comes before that which is called 13 the preamble. And the preamble explains what we 14 are doing. 15 So it's basically a narrative 16 description of everything and how this is supposed 17 to work and all that. 18 MR. HUBER: Okay. 19 MR. ADIN: So we will explain it, like 20 Sarah said, in extensive detail. 21 MR. HUBER: Okay, thank you. 22 MR. ADIN: Yeah.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 42 1 MS. WIDDER: And we're also going to 2 have some more detailed discussion of those 3 methods in subsequent slides today. 4 Okay, so if -- now, the second option 5 that's presented, testing a pump with a 6 manufacturer motor is obviously not available if 7 you're just selling the pump as a bare bump 8 because there is no manufacturer motor. 9 But if you are selling a pump, a bare 10 pump combined with a motor or a bare pump combined 11 with a motor and controls, you could test the pump 12 and motor in a wire-to-water test on the test 13 stand and then just use that input power to the 14 motor to calculate the PEI or if you had a bare 15 pump plus a motor and controls, use that bare -- 16 that input power to the motor and then apply a 17 system curve to that data without additional 18 testing of the controls to come up with a PEI for 19 the case sold with controls. 20 So that's a testing -- wire-to-water 21 testing case for pump and motor. And if you 22 wanted to reflect, say, the performance of

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Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-18-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 43 1 controls that may differ from the system curve we 2 describe, you could also put the pump, the motor 3 and the controls in the test stand and determine, 4 based on testing, the performance of that product 5 and then just input the power at 25, 50, 75 and 6 100 percent of BEP flow, weighted average over 7 your standard and that would be the PEI for that 8 product. 9 And so, that would be almost purely 10 testing. So those are the options, so the 11 universe of options for the different pump 12 configurations. And now we're going to talk 13 through some of them in a little more detail, sort 14 of walk through how those calculations work. Yeah? 15 Unless there are comments? 16 MR. BOTELER: It's Rob Boteler with 17 Nidec. A question on the assumed losses with the 18 motor and running on a VFD. 19 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. 20 MR. BOTELER: Okay, so we have -- NEMA 21 gave you average losses for 100, 75, 50 and 25 on 22 sine wave.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 44 1 MS. WIDDER: Right. 2 MR. BOTELER: But when we run on a 3 variable frequency drive, depending upon the 4 waveform, depending upon the switching frequency, 5 the motor can lose an additional band to two bands 6 of efficiency. 7 MS. WIDDER: Right. 8 MR. BOTELER: Is that going to be 9 reflected in the partial load assumption? 10 MS. WIDDER: Yeah, so I'm going to 11 answer your question with two parts. The first 12 more direct answer to your question is yes. 13 To the extent that we have data 14 available to reflect the representative 15 performance of motors or efficiency of motors when 16 controlled by a drive, we will try to reflect that 17 in the calculation, either as part of the system 18 curve or as a different motor loss curve that 19 would be applied for a controlled system. Those 20 details are not in the slide deck right now but 21 those are two options. 22 But we will try to describe the accurate

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 45 1 performance of motors and drives combined as a 2 system to the extent we can for these cases where 3 we're just calculating what we would anticipate 4 the energy use of a controlled system to be. 5 Now, the second part of my question is - 6 - or the second part of my answer that I encourage 7 you all to think about when we're developing those 8 curves is as we've all sort of discussed over 9 time, the impact of applying a drive to a pump -- 10 a bare pump -- far outweighs any change in motor 11 efficiency or drive efficiency. 12 And so, we do want to be accurate and 13 make sure that our -- that the tested performance, 14 this wire-to-water tested performance, will be at 15 least as good as and in most cases better than our 16 assumed calculations. 17 But aside from that, we do want to be 18 representative of the performance but not get 19 overly complicated just, you know, keeping in mind 20 the magnitude of the impact of the efficiency 21 versus the impact on power. Yeah? 22 MR. FERNSTROM: So Sarah, this is Gary.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 46 1 Along the lines of the tradeoff between simplicity 2 and complication, are you going to try and take 3 into account the motor design which might be the 4 number of poles, whether it's synchronous or 5 switch reluctance or are you just going to 6 consider motors generically? 7 MS. WIDDER: In terms of the controlled 8 or uncontrolled performance or both? 9 MS. FERNSTROM: In terms of their -- 10 thank you. Thank you, Rob. In terms of their 11 efficiency, both controlled and uncontrolled. 12 MS. WIDDER: Okay. So in terms of -- 13 and I guess the answer is -- I just wanted to 14 clarify. Thank you for that. But we certainly 15 can. 16 We've considered a lot of different 17 motor loss curves for different poles, different 18 enclosed versus unenclosed and we could 19 potentially consider different motor loss curves 20 for different advanced motor technology. 21 All of that could be part of the test 22 procedure and would just be essentially a table of

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 47 1 coefficients, as you'll see later, different 2 coefficients for the loss curve that you would 3 apply based on the type of motor that you were 4 paired with. 5 We've looked at a lot of data for the 6 uncontrolled case. We could similarly try to 7 collect data for how motor efficiency changes in 8 the controlled case as a function of different 9 motor designs. 10 I will admit that that data is less 11 available. And so, it would be more difficult to 12 describe the family of curves. So we'd need a lot 13 more input from industry on those. However, I 14 still will -- you know, we still have the tradeoff 15 between complexity and accuracy. And so, I'd 16 really encourage us to think about whether all of 17 those curves are needed or which curves are 18 needed. Greg? 19 MR. CASE: I wonder if somehow we're -- 20 maybe I'm missing something. But the loss data 21 that you're picking up here is supposed to be for 22 the minimally compliant case.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 48 1 MS. WIDDER: Mm-hmm. 2 MR. CASE: So we really don't need the 3 switch reluctance. Those are all going to be 4 things that we test and to get better PER values 5 or PEI values. And that's how we would pick up 6 those improved performances, by actually running 7 tests on those. I don't know that we need to have 8 that built into this model. I'm kind of missing 9 where that's going to help us. 10 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary again. 11 Okay, thank you, Greg. I was trying to get at the 12 tradeoff between complexity in the analytic 13 approach versus the testing burden. And really, 14 it's up to industry. We'd like to see some 15 refinement or discrimination in the performance. 16 And that can be had two ways, either 17 through further refinement of the analytical 18 approach at the cost of complexity there or 19 testing burden. I don't care which. But our 20 objective would be to want to have more precision 21 in understanding performance. 22 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas Adin?

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 49 1 MR. ADIN: Yeah, just to clarify, what 2 Greg described was actually the original proposal 3 that DOE had come out with. We have a default 4 loss curve based on the minimally compliant motor 5 and then you do a test if you have something 6 different. And so -- 7 MS. WIDDER: I don't think we have a 8 proposal yet. 9 MR. ADIN: Well, not a proposal. I'm 10 sorry. That was not quite the right way to put 11 it. But that's what we had originally discussed. 12 We hadn't talked about other options. So but, as 13 Sarah indicated, there are other ways we could do 14 it. We just don't have enough information to 15 consider those other types of motors. 16 So if, you know, the group believes it's 17 important for us to do that, we need to collect 18 more information. We just don't really have a 19 concrete way to do that yet. 20 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis? Louis Starr? 21 MR. STARR: So I thought Sarah's -- one 22 of her earlier on things had some other options,

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 50 1 like two-speed motors and some other options that 2 were kind of technology. In general, I kind of 3 agree with what Greg Case was saying. 4 But the only thing is if there's 5 substantial differences in the efficiency -- in 6 other words, we were talking about 1 percent, then 7 probably not interested. 8 But if it gets to be whether it's a 9 substantial option out there in which it is really 10 a better selection, if people are just going 11 through using a calculated one, you're not going 12 really be able to give them credit for maybe using 13 something -- you know, a particular motor that 14 costs a little bit more unless they go and test 15 it. 16 So I understand that if you start to get 17 something that it could start to cut the other 18 way. But I think you want some level of -- some 19 level of refinement in those selections of 20 technologies that give you certain levels that 21 make sense. 22 MR. ADIN: And I don't think we

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 51 1 necessarily disagree. I think just at this point 2 we don't have enough information to say this is 3 definitely the way that that could work. 4 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you, Lucas. 5 MR. ADIN: -- for those other types of 6 motors. It's easy for minimally compliant DOE 7 motors, but the other types it might be more 8 complicated. 9 MR. STARR: Right. 10 MS. WIDDER: Right. 11 MR. BROOKMAN: So that was Lucas. Al 12 Huber? 13 MR. HUBER: I think -- I think Greg is 14 correct. What we need to do, we're trying to set 15 the minimum. 16 MS. WIDDER: Mm-hmm. 17 MR. HUBER: And I mean, we're assuming 18 the market -- the market is going to drive it to a 19 higher -- to a higher level. So these other motor 20 technologies will be offered by manufacturers, as 21 in lieu of the minimum. And therefore, it'll get 22 into the marketplace.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 52 1 I think if you get too complex and try 2 to add too many different styles of motors and 3 you're trying to pick winners and losers and it's 4 just -- it's going to be a problem. So what I 5 think we ought to do is use the induction motor as 6 a minimally compliant. 7 And in the case of controlled, we 8 probably need to sit down because there's not real 9 accurate information available, sit down and come 10 up with a discount or a percentage that is going - 11 - the efficiency is going to drop from 100, 75, 50 12 and 25 and we ought to be able to get some 13 reasonable information from our motor people so 14 that you can put it in a table and that's what 15 everybody uses and that we know that a tested -- 16 as you've said many, many times -- a tested 17 configuration will always be better. 18 And I think that's what we ought to do. 19 Anything other than that it's going to get so 20 complex and so burdensome we're not going to be 21 able to handle it. 22 MS. WIDDER: Mm-hmm.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 53 1 MR. BROOKMAN: Rob Boteler? 2 MR. BOTELER: Yeah, Rob Boteler, Nidec. 3 Speaking on behalf of NEMA, we don't have any 4 standards for advanced technologies right now. And 5 our technical subcommittee is working on those 6 standards because we recognize, as Al says, that, 7 you know, that's the wave of the future coming. 8 But if you reached out today to try and 9 build the curve, it wouldn't be something that 10 would be a NEMA specification. It'd be something 11 you'd have to get from each individual 12 manufacturer. 13 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary Fernstrom? 14 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. Okay, 15 fine. If industry is happy with the two 16 alternatives, a relatively low calculated standard 17 efficiency and testing as the alternative, that's 18 fine. 19 MS. WIDDER: Good. 20 MR. FERNSTROM: I just wanted to raise 21 the option of a little more sophistication in the 22 calculated version.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 54 1 MS. WIDDER: And I will say I think it 2 achieves your objective almost a little bit better 3 because it allows for not only differentiation 4 among motor types but differentiation within that 5 motor type, so different ECMs that may perform 6 better or worse can be differentiated if you're 7 doing a wire-to-water test whereas if we specified 8 a curve for an ECM versus an induction or, you 9 know, then you're just -- you get what you get. 10 And so, it locks you in a little bit. Okay. 11 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis? Well -- 12 MR. ECKMAN: I think two things. Doing 13 it that way avoids the potential of selecting the 14 wrong defaults for all those others that we end up 15 with a test result that's worse than the 16 calculator, which is not a good outcome. 17 MS. WIDDER: Right. 18 MR. ECKMAN: So I think that avoids that 19 problem. It does raise another problem though. If 20 a distributor decides that they want to modify any 21 of the pieces beyond the minimally compliant, then 22 they're in the test game. So I just want to

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 55 1 acknowledge that they're in the test game. So if 2 they -- 3 MS. WIDDER: For motors. 4 MR. ECKMAN: If they want to change a 5 motor or a control, right, we have a default -- 6 MS. WIDDER: We have a default control 7 curve. So they could take the -- I mean, it 8 depends a lot on how that scenario would play out. 9 But if they were to take, let's say, a bare pump 10 and a motor from a manufacturer and apply a 11 control to it, they could apply the default -- 12 MR. ECKMAN: The default control. 13 MS. WIDDER: -- control curve and 14 receive credit for that. 15 MR. ECKMAN: But if they change the 16 motor out, they'd have -- 17 MS. WIDDER: But if they change the 18 motor, they could -- they could get credit for the 19 change in full load efficiency because there's 20 calculations for that. 21 MR. ECKMAN: Right, but if they change 22 the motor type out from an induction motor --

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 56 1 MS. WIDDER: Right, that would not be 2 reflected in the current approach. 3 MR. ADIN: Unless they do the full pump 4 test. 5 MS. WIDDER: Unless they test. That 6 would be their option. 7 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Al Huber? 8 MR. HUBER: And I may be incorrect about 9 this but it's my understanding once they start 10 doing that, they become a manufacturer at that 11 point. So therefore, they are subject to the same 12 requirements that we are. 13 MS. WIDDER: Mm-hmm. 14 MR. BROOKMAN: I recall from yesterday 15 that DOE general counsel was not wanting to 16 comment on this yet because they know you wanted 17 an answer and they wanted to think it through I 18 think. So Louis Starr? 19 MR. STARR: So you know, the obvious 20 technology that comes to my mind, and it doesn't 21 make as much sense in the three phase but it's 22 Rob's motors. It's ECM in a single phase makes a

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Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-18-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 57 1 lot of sense, as we discovered in circulators, 2 right? 3 That's the only difference in there was 4 that it had a better motor in it and that was for 5 single phase which saw some pretty good savings. 6 The range that we're in now, I don't know, we're 7 probably more into the three phase. 8 But that's what I'm getting at is those 9 things where there's a clear cut technology. A 10 variable speed drive is obviously better than 11 using a damper -- I'm sorry, using a valve. 12 MS. WIDDER: Mm-hmm. 13 MR. STARR: So it -- it's those things 14 where I think there's a clear substantial 15 difference. If we're talking about 5 or 8 percent 16 gain in efficiency, then I think we need to have 17 something there and that will take care of the 18 calculator, you know, not -- I guess the main 19 thing is if everybody's going to test, then that's 20 great. 21 But if everybody's not going to test, 22 then they'll go to the minimum. But if there's a

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Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-18-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 58 1 minimum out there that -- or there's another 2 option out there that makes sense and they want to 3 upgrade, we want to make it easier for that to be 4 there is what I'm thinking. 5 MS. WIDDER: Okay. So I've noted that. 6 We will revisit more information about motor 7 curves. So this might come up again. But now, 8 we're going to walk through some of the examples, 9 starting at the top of this chart and essentially 10 walking across the top row from left to right and 11 then getting into wire-to-water testing and how 12 that might look. 13 Pretty high level, but just walk through 14 where these pieces of information come from and 15 what the equations look like. 16 So for a bare pump, you would test the 17 pump in accordance with HI 40.6, multiply or 18 combine that tested performance data that's 19 represented about the pump with standard motor 20 efficiency data and a default part load curve 21 that's provided within the pump test procedure and 22 then the standardized controls performance is

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 59 1 really just one. So that can be disregarded in 2 this case. 3 It's just meant to, you know, have the 4 same visual for every case. The Pi values, or the 5 pump input values, that are inserted into the 6 equation would be the linearly fit shaft input 7 power, as we discussed previously, at each load 8 point, the load points being 75, 100 and 110 of 9 BEP flow race which we've agreed upon and then 10 equally weighting those pump -- those points. 11 The standardized motor performance, as 12 we've discussed, would be an enclosed motor that 13 is minimally compliant with DOE's motor 14 regulations. 15 For general purpose motors, subtype one 16 and, well, actually this is reflective of -- this 17 particular slide has not been updated to the new 18 motor standards because there's not subtype one 19 and subtype two anymore. Now they're just, you 20 know, whatever name class you are. But yes? 21 MR. FERNSTROM: Sarah, this is Gary. I 22 thought a previous slide you showed, showed a

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 60 1 percentage of best efficiency point lower than 75. 2 MS. WIDDER: That's correct. But that's 3 only for the variable load or controlled 4 application. 5 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay. I understand. 6 Thank you. 7 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. I could have color8 coded those differently maybe. But yes. Yeah, 9 that'll come later. But for a bare pump, 10 uncontrolled, this is all the data we need. The 11 horsepower, as we discussed, will be the next 12 horsepower above brake horsepower at 120 percent 13 of BEP flow. 14 So essentially calculate what your 120 15 percent of BEP flow shaft horsepower is, round up. 16 That's the horsepower bin for motor size that you 17 would be in and the efficiency associated with 18 that motor size. And the poles would be based on 19 the speed at which the pump is being rated. 20 Standardized control performance, the efficiency 21 is 100 percent. It's just one in this case. 22 So here's what the equation looks like

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 61 1 for determining our PER which goes on the top of 2 the PEI equation, the PER pump which is ratioed 3 over the minimally compliant pump. 4 We have the weighted average of the pump 5 shaft input power, which is what the P represents 6 with the blue triangle over it. That's back from 7 -- or the pump curve that we observed previously. 8 And then the L is the motor losses. So 9 we are combining or accounting for motor losses 10 using this L factor that's also in horsepower 11 that's reflective of the drop in efficiency of the 12 motor at part loading at the different load 13 points. 14 And then just plugging in that 15 information, there -- those are the tested data. 16 And then, here's a little bit more information 17 about how these motor loss curves were generated. 18 We've discussed this previously and so 19 I'm going to sort of gloss over it. But if you 20 have specific questions or comments, please bring 21 them up. Based on looking at motor data, 22 initially we were using motor challenge data.

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Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-18-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 62 1 We've been provided with some updated 2 information from NEMA that's more reflective of 3 motors in the market and this size class of motors 4 that we're considering. 5 They would be paired with pumps and 6 based on that data, a cubic relationship is still 7 a good way to describe the motor loss curve. I've 8 got some examples of curves that we can look at 9 later. But we found a cubic to still be 10 appropriate. 11 And essentially, you calculate that 12 specific fractional loss by taking the full load 13 loss times the fraction of load. 14 So if, you know, you were at 100 percent 15 of motor load, you would need to scale that to, 16 you know, what's your pump load and what is that 17 really in terms of percentage load on your motor. 18 Seventy-five percent of BEP flow really might be 19 something like 55 or 60 percent of motor load 20 times your -- times your, sorry, full load rated 21 losses and then plugged into this polynomial. 22 The A, B, C and D are how we described

### Capital Reporting Company

Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-18-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 63 1 this equation and what would vary if we want to 2 have a lot of different kinds of curves. And 3 that's noted on the bottom here. 4 A different cubic polynomial, so these 5 different coefficients, could be assumed based on 6 motor type, number of poles, enclosed versus open, 7 a lot of different factors. We could have, you 8 know, tables upon tables of coefficients. 9 But we -- right now what's in these 10 slides and what we've been considering is just 11 differentiating based on number of poles and open 12 versus enclosed and then really just focusing on 13 that minimally compliant induction motor that's 14 covered by DOE. 15 And so that's the data that was provided 16 by NEMA. So that's what's reflected in the motor 17 loss curve data we have right now. That's what we 18 were considering before. But as we discussed, we 19 could consider other options. 20 This is an example of one of the curves. 21 This is actually comparing the yellow and green 22 icons, squares and diamonds, are the curves that

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Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-18-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 64 1 we showed at the last meeting based on the motor 2 challenge data and -- or no, I'm sorry. Excuse 3 me. 4 The blue diamond is the old curve based 5 on the motor challenge data and the yellow and 6 green squares are representative of the data that 7 NEMA provided us. The maximum values is really 8 the average. 9 So that's -- I should revise that. But 10 so the green triangles, or the green diamonds in 11 the middle there is the average of manufacturer 12 efficiency for this ODP at 3,600 rpm. 13 So that describes how the losses changed 14 at fractional loading for all the pumps from one 15 to 200 horsepower. Now, NEMA also broke out those 16 efficiencies by horsepower. And that might be 17 another variable we want to consider. Actually, 18 I'll show you guys a chart so you can see the 19 impact of that. This is really slow. Maybe I 20 won't. Here we go. 21 So this is the data that was provided, 22 motor losses by horsepower. And the thing that you

### Capital Reporting Company

Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-18-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 65 1 can see that there is a trend, decreases in 2 efficiency obviously with motor size but also 3 changes in the shape of the curve with motor size. 4 Now, you know, having different 5 coefficients based on horsepower bin would 6 certainly add to the complexity of how we apply 7 this default loss curve. But that's data thanks 8 to NEMA that we have now and so disaggregation 9 that we can do. 10 I would -- I would note that this -- the 11 impact on the rated PEI of the pump with these 12 changes, if we assume, say the one horsepower 13 curve versus the 100 horsepower curve is extremely 14 minimal just because the losses are -- the motor 15 losses are so small compared to the power rating 16 or the energy use of the pump that the changes in 17 efficiency -- the changes in the motor loss curve 18 -- the motor loss curve shape and how that 19 extrapolates, or is calculated into the actual 20 motor losses and then combined with the pump 21 horsepower is just -- it has a minimal impact on 22 even the pump PER much less the PEI.

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Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-18-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 66 1 It's like a 1 percent or less, probably 2 much less than 1 percent. So but that data is 3 available. So that's something we'll accept input 4 on now or later. 5 In terms of the curves that we used in 6 these examples, we just took the average 7 efficiency, converted it to losses that was 8 provided by NEMA and then we applied this 9 conservative value is applying a conservative 10 factor that we discussed last time and essentially 11 scales with fraction of load. So you have more 12 conservative values as you go down the loading. 13 NEMA has also suggested that we just use the 14 minimum NEMA bands. 15 So we go -- it's more like a bias then 16 as opposed to a scaling factor and just go, you 17 know, two NEMA bands down to describe a true 18 minimum. That's another option that we could 19 consider. But in general, the motor loss curve 20 will take this shape. 21 Unless we receive other data or input, 22 we'll base it on the data that was provided by

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Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-18-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 67 1 NEMA and then make it conservative, or make it 2 reflective of a worst case motor, representative 3 of a worst case motor. 4 One issue here is that not all motors 5 are covered that might be paired with pumps within 6 our scope are covered by DOE's motor regulations. 7 MR. STARR: I had a question. 8 MS. WIDDER: Yeah, sorry. 9 MR. STARR: So Louis Starr with NEEA. I 10 notice in the chart of many motors you had on the 11 previous one where you had multiple ones, it looks 12 like really the problem is in the smaller 13 horsepower. 14 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. 15 MR. STARR: Particularly less than three 16 horsepower. Is there thought of maybe -- because 17 really the performance of the large ones don't 18 really drop of very much as you go down. But they 19 do in the smaller ones. 20 So if the market share of installed 21 motors and pumps are more kind of where that 22 number is and sort of the median of that -- kind

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Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-18-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 68 1 of using that number to see -- or if nothing else, 2 doing a weighted average of what kind of -- 3 MS. WIDDER: Right. 4 MR. STARR: -- the bins of pumps you 5 know -- 6 MS. WIDDER: Right. 7 MR. STARR: You know, those one to three 8 and then something like that because, you know -- 9 MS. WIDDER: So shipment weighted as 10 opposed to straight weighted. 11 MR. STARR: Yeah, I mean, to me, I look 12 there and I see the green ones, one horsepower, is 13 that that very bottom one? 14 MS. WIDDER: Yeah, that's one 15 horsepower. 16 MR. STARR: So it's quite a bit and it 17 sounds like you did a sensitivity analysis. I 18 wasn't quite sure. In other words, see how it 19 makes a difference to the curves. 20 MS. WIDDER: Yeah, so we found the 21 equation for each of these horsepower bins 22 separately --

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Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-18-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 69 1 MR. STARR: Right. 2 MS. WIDDER: -- and plugged in the 3 highest and the lowest. 4 MR. STARR: And then that's your bounds 5 that you had on the other chart. 6 MS. WIDDER: And that's your bounds -- 7 well, that's actually not presented on the other 8 chart. 9 MR. STARR: Okay. 10 MS. WIDDER: I apologize. That was just 11 me talking. 12 MR. STARR: Okay. 13 MS. WIDDER: I didn't make graphs of 14 everything. But that was certainly this worst 15 case small horsepower pump is within the 16 conservative range that's reflected on the other 17 part, on the other chart. 18 MR. STARR: Okay. 19 MS. WIDDER: It wasn't used to generate 20 it but it's within the range. 21 MR. STARR: When you kicked out your PER 22 number, how much difference did it matter if you

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Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-18-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 70 1 used the one as opposed to the 100 horsepower 2 motor? Did it make a lot of difference or was it 3 like half a percent or something? 4 MS. WIDDER: Like a half a percent or 5 less. 6 MR. STARR: Okay, all right, so maybe. 7 All right. 8 MS. WIDDER: Yeah, if you think about 9 how it affects the actual motor losses, so you 10 take those coefficients, which may change some and 11 you multiply it by the fractional loading of the 12 motor and so even if you change dramatically, 13 you're multiplying by a power number that then is 14 added to a much larger power number that's not 15 affected by this at all. And so, the incremental 16 difference is just very small. 17 MR. STARR: I think it probably doesn't 18 matter but just for the purposes of doing 19 something, some kind of weighted thing probably 20 makes better sense. 21 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. 22 MR. STARR: I bet if Steve Rosenstock

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Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-18-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 71 1 was here -- 2 (Laughter.) 3 MS. WIDDER: Yes. 4 MR. BROOKMAN: He's on the phone. 5 MS. WIDDER: So this is something that 6 even following up on this meeting I'm just sort of 7 presenting some things that we're considering to 8 think -- continuing to think about as we develop 9 the proposal. 10 If we don't receive input now, we will 11 propose probably something similar to what's being 12 discussed here and then we can accept comments at 13 that time too. So this is not the only 14 opportunity you'll have to see this. 15 And we may further refine some of this 16 as well, do some more sensitive analysis. I just 17 received this data on Friday, or Thursday or 18 something, so very recently. 19 So going back up, there we are. Okay, 20 so we have a motor loss curve. In this case, we 21 have an ODP 3,600 rpm depicted here. And we've 22 applied those coefficients to our motor losses.

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Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-18-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 72 1 One issue that we need to resolve, 2 especially in the case of bare pump motor -- bare 3 shaft motors is what the minimally compliant motor 4 that the standard is based upon will be, what is 5 the representative -- what's representative of the 6 worst case motor for those motors that are not 7 covered by DOE. 8 So this is applicable for submersible 9 pumps that might be paired with submersible 10 motors. We discussed this at the last webinar and 11 didn't really come up with any other pump types 12 that -- or motor types that we might want to come 13 up with a table for. Continue to welcome comment 14 on that. 15 But in the absence of any, we did come 16 up with a submersible pump efficiency table that 17 will be in the version 12 of the calculator. We 18 showed some preliminary data at the last webinar 19 that I think we received feedback from the group 20 was along the lines of reasonable. It was 21 slightly lower than what is the case for NEMA -- 22 the NEMA motors that are covered. And this was

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Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-18-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 73 1 the method we used to develop those efficiency 2 values. 3 We surveyed industry literature to find 4 all of the motor efficiencies in the same 5 horsepower bands that are applied to the induction 6 motors and then selected the lowest efficiency 7 available in each horsepower bin and we could also 8 apply a scaling factor to ensure that it is in 9 fact a minimum because although we tried to be 10 comprehensive in our search, we may have missed 11 some. Yeah? 12 MR. BOTELER: This is Rob Boteler with 13 Nidec. The new motor rule that goes into effect 14 in June of 2016, it pretty much covers I think all 15 of the motors that would be used on pumps because 16 it has been expanded to include partial motors. So 17 if partial motors are included, polyphase only, 18 but you're right. It doesn't cover submersible 19 motors whatsoever. 20 MS. WIDDER: Okay. 21 MR. BOTELER: But I think -- I don't 22 think there's anything else that wouldn't be

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Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-18-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 74 1 covered in the induction motor polyphase category. 2 MS. WIDDER: Thank you for that. That's 3 very helpful. Okay, so this is just carrying out 4 all that method that we discussed. 5 Just to remind everyone what we're 6 doing, full load rated losses times the part load 7 factor that's determined using the cubic 8 polynomial. We add that to the pump shaft input 9 power to determine the input power to the pump and 10 motor in this theoretical construct and we come up 11 with a fractional input power at each of those 12 load points that's on the very right-hand side of 13 this chart. Okay, then we plug that into our PER 14 equation and take a weighted average of the three 15 load points for the uncontrolled case, this 16 constant load case. 17 I need to update that motor efficiency. 18 But so -- or no, it's the same motor efficiency. I 19 apologize. So the PER CL in this case is based on 20 a motor efficiency of 92.6 percent from the DOE 21 motor regulations and then we come up with a PER 22 constant load for this pump of 49.71. And it was

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Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-18-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 75 1 a 60 horsepower pump, just for context. 2 And then calculate the PEI constant load 3 as a ratio of the PER constant load for that pump, 4 that 49.71 number, over the maximum PER that would 5 be allowed for a pump with the same -- to serve 6 the same hydraulic load. I won't say the same 7 hydraulic characteristics because it's a minimally 8 compliant, minimally -- minimum efficiency pump. 9 But they serve the same hydraulic load. And okay, 10 yeah, there we go. So now moving on to bare pump 11 and -- 12 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg Towsley? 13 MS. WIDDER: Yes, go ahead. 14 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg Towsley, Grundfos. 15 Joanna just walked out. But can you go back one 16 slide? 17 MS. WIDDER: Yes. 18 MR. TOWSLEY: Maybe another can confirm. 19 So the three horsepower shown up there, 43, 53, 20 51, 25, those are based on our test calculations 21 or test procedures pulled there. My question to 22 Joanna would be are those the kind of data that

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Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-18-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 76 1 you're talking about reporting into the database. 2 MR. ECKMAN Yes. 3 MR. TOWSLEY: Okay. That's -- I just 4 wanted to ask that clarifying question. 5 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. 6 MR. HUBER: (Off mic.) 7 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber? 8 MR. HUBER: The denominator, PER max, 9 that is the minimally compliant pump. So why are 10 we calling it max? Shouldn't it be minimum? 11 MS. WIDDER: It's confusing. It's a 12 maximum value. 13 MR. HUBER: It certainly is confusing. 14 MS. WIDDER: So we described it as max 15 because PER min is -- I mean, PER min is 16 associated with minimally compliant. But it's 17 actually a maximum value. So it's the highest 18 energy use that the pump could use. I mean, we 19 could use it -- call it PER standard. How's that? 20 MR. HUBER: That would be better. 21 MS. WIDDER: Okay, I'll change that. 22 I'll change it on this slide. It probably will

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Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-18-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 77 1 come up again. 2 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg Towsley? 3 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg Towsley, Grundfos. 4 And this is kind of a rewind, just wanted to share 5 an observation. Sarah was on such a roll, I 6 didn't want to stop her. 7 Going back to Louis' comment or question 8 and the comment about the curve -- efficiency 9 curves of the different motors and particularly 10 how it drops off more on one to three horsepower, 11 based on the calculation on the way this works and 12 how the calculator chooses the next greater motor, 13 it drops off the least amount within 75 to 100 14 percent of load. 15 And so, if you pick a -- if your pump 16 horsepower is 2.1, the calculator's going to 17 choose a three horsepower motor and 2.1 is about 18 70 percent. So the way the motor sizing works in 19 the calculator, you won't see much below 75 20 percent on the drop-off on the correction factor. 21 So I don't think that we need to spend much time 22 really looking at changing the bins or that --

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Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-18-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 78 1 MS. WIDDER: Okay. 2 MR. TOWSLEY: I don't think it will 3 change much on there. 4 MS. WIDDER: Yeah, thank you. 5 MR. STARR: So it's more the sensitivity 6 analysis about 75 percent on the motor curves is 7 what you're saying. 8 MS. WIDDER: Right. 9 MR. STARR: Okay, well yeah. 10 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. 11 MR. STARR: So maybe it won't make as 12 much difference. 13 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. 14 MR. BROOKMAN: (Off mic.) 15 MS. WIDDER: Sure, yeah. 16 MR. BROOKMAN: Is this a good spot? 17 MS. WIDDER: Let's do -- yeah, I think 18 this is a great stop. Let's stop with the bare 19 pump case, which we got through. And I think the 20 rest of these slides will go much quicker because 21 a lot of it is exactly the same with like one 22 minor little difference.

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Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-18-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 79 1 MR. BROOKMAN: That was -- that was a 2 good presentation. I thought that was well done. 3 And let's take a break right now. It's 10:25 and 4 let's resume at 10:40. Please remember to wear 5 your badge. You know where the restrooms are and 6 the coffee shop is and we'll resume at 10:40. 7 And for those of you that are joining us 8 online, welcome. I hope this is working for you, 9 that you're able to hear everything comfortably. 10 (WHEREUPON, a recess was taken.) 11 MR. BROOKMAN: And we're returning to 12 Sarah Widder. 13 MS. WIDDER: Okay. Thank you, Doug. 14 Resuming where we left off, we had just summarized 15 and then reviewed in detail how one would go about 16 calculating a PEI for a pump sold as a bare pump 17 with default motor and controls performance. Now, 18 we're going to take that one step further and 19 discuss how -- the method -- the calculation 20 method that was still in that top line of the 21 chart that one could use to test a bare pump and 22 motor.

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Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-18-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 80 1 So here's two options. These are just 2 different ways of presenting the same information 3 that was in the table we reviewed earlier. You 4 could test the motor and pump together as a 5 system. That's the A option here that's a wire6 to-water test. 7 Again, you can sort of ignore the 8 controls performance in this case. Or type B, 9 where we're still using a calculation approach and 10 just tested pump data, just tested data with the 11 pump in accordance with 40.6 and then tested motor 12 data but they would not need to be tested 13 together. 14 So that's -- we're going to talk about 15 the B approach for now. We'll talk about A when 16 we talk about wire-to-water testing later on. 17 Determining the PEI for bare pump sold with a 18 motor is extremely similar to calculating the PEI 19 for a bare pump sold alone. The only thing that's 20 different is that the losses, the L factors here, 21 is calculated where the rated losses is the full 22 load losses of the motor that's sold with that

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Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-18-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 81 1 pump. 2 And so, instead of looking up the 3 minimally efficient motor, you could assume the 4 efficiency. You would take the full load 5 efficiency of that motor that was tested in 6 accordance with the DOE test procedure and use 7 that plugged into this equation, converting 8 efficiency to losses and then applying the default 9 loss curve. And that's how these L numbers would 10 come. The only thing that's changed in that whole 11 description is the motor efficiency that's 12 assumed. 13 Instead of a table, it's now the tested 14 full load motor efficiency. Pretty much 15 everything else is exactly the same. That's our 16 tested data from HI 40.6. This is the same table 17 that we saw before. For this 60 horsepower motor, 18 we've assumed that the motor efficiency is 95 19 percent and that for a 60 horsepower motor has 20 full load loss of 3.16 horsepower. 21 Other values, the same tested data, same 22 pump in this case, comes out to a PER of 49.03

### Capital Reporting Company

Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-18-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 82 1 which is slightly lower than I think it was 49.71 2 in the bare pump case. That's off the top of my 3 head but it's slightly lower than the bare pump 4 case. So we're reflecting the improved 5 performance of the motor, albeit minor. 6 And then back to your comment, Louis, is 7 a 2 percent change, or 1.5 percent change in motor 8 efficiency only affects the PER by 0.05, you know, 9 the change in the efficiency of the motor shape of 10 the curve is really, really, like, in the noise. 11 And then, we would calculate the PEI as a ratio of 12 the controlled PER that we were showing here over 13 the standard PER. It still says max here but 14 really we mean standard. 15 So this is another slide that we had 16 used before in the last time we discussed motor 17 losses. And so, I just wanted to review all of 18 what we discussed previously. There are a few 19 other -- or there is actually about one other 20 option for accounting for motor losses when the 21 pump is sold with a motor. 22 So previously, we just had to assume

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Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-18-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 83 1 default loss curves because we were assuming a 2 motor. When you have a motor that's paired with a 3 pump, you can test that motor. And so, in 4 addition to using the full load tested efficiency, 5 there is an option of using full tested efficiency 6 at part loading of the motor as opposed to the 7 default loss curve if the pump is sold with a 8 motor. 9 So you could get that data from your 10 motor manufacturer. We discussed yesterday, and 11 Dan provided -- Dan Delaney who was here at that 12 time provided a lot of input about what test 13 procedures might be appropriate for those cases 14 and also mentioned that AEDMs could potentially be 15 considered. 16 That's an alternative energy 17 determination method that is an algorithm for 18 determining efficiency. DOE has very specific 19 requirements for that. It's allowed for full load 20 efficiency of motors today. There is no DOE test 21 procedure at this time for part load testing -- 22 testing of part load efficiency for motors or

### Capital Reporting Company

Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-18-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 84 1 related AEDMs. 2 And so, that would be a new proposal. 3 That would be a new thing that would be 4 incorporated into the pumps test procedure is this 5 test procedure for part load, determining motor 6 efficiency at part load if that data were 7 important for calculating the efficiency of pumps. 8 We discussed earlier in that table of 9 options, the primary options for determining the 10 PEI of a pump sold with a motor as you test the 11 pump and then you use the full load, the certified 12 full load efficiency of that motor which is -- 13 there is a DOE test procedure for that. 14 That's not incrementally burdensome. You 15 apply the default motor loss curve which we've 16 discussed that that has really minimal impact on 17 the PEI and then you can use a calculation 18 approach or you do a full wire-to-water test if 19 you're interested in capturing the performance of 20 better or different motors. 21 So this using measured part load 22 efficiencies is sort of a hybrid of those two. You

### Capital Reporting Company

Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-18-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 85 1 would be imposing additional burden potentially on 2 motor manufacturers to supply you with that data 3 and also making the pumps test procedure 4 potentially more complicated because now you have 5 a whole motor test procedure as part of the pumps 6 test procedure. 7 So however we did receive comments in 8 the last discussion about how that data is 9 available and already collected as part of the DOE 10 test procedure, although it's not reported. So 11 that's -- this is just a review sort of what we 12 discussed last time. I don't think DOE has a 13 proposal. 14 I think it's really up -- we request 15 feedback from both pump and motor manufacturers as 16 to whether this more burdensome part load 17 efficiency data option is attractive or beneficial 18 or if it's -- if this medium, this middle approach 19 which is what we've discussed pretty much to date, 20 is sufficient with the wire-to-water test as an 21 option for capturing better motor performance. 22 MR. BROOKMAN: I have a question.

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Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-18-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 86 1 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. 2 MR. BROOKMAN: When you array options 3 for a test procedure like this, I should probably 4 know this but I don't, do you offer a primary 5 option plus alternatives? Do you offer one 6 method? Do you -- how does that typically shake 7 out? 8 MS. WIDDER: I think Lucas would like to 9 respond to that. 10 MR. ADIN: So, well, I'll just make sure 11 that I understand your question correctly first. 12 MS. WIDDER: Okay. 13 MR. ADIN: You're asking about a way 14 that a test procedure is proposed in the actual 15 notice of proposed rulemaking, how options are 16 described? 17 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, or -- yes. 18 MR. ADIN: So the proposed test 19 procedure is the option that DOE is officially 20 proposing. To the extent there are other options 21 we could consider, those would be described in the 22 preamble.

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Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-18-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 87 1 But if DOE were to receive feedback that 2 one of those options would be preferable to what 3 DOE actually proposed, we would have to do a 4 supplemental notice of proposed rulemaking to 5 propose that other option. 6 MR. BROOKMAN: I see. 7 MR. ADIN: So we can't propose multiple 8 -- make multiple official proposals. There's 9 really just one with other possibilities described 10 in the preamble and then if we wanted to do 11 something else, we'd have to amend the original 12 proposal. 13 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, so that's helpful. 14 That's useful. And then my follow-on, I guess 15 does -- do test procedures say is it that there is 16 more than one possible method to provide the 17 answer or does it say this is how you do it and 18 you always say this one test procedure, period? 19 MR. ADIN: So there are other cases in 20 which the prescribed DOE test method has multiple 21 ways of calculating or measuring a particular 22 value for a given product.

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Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-18-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 88 1 MR. BROOKMAN: That's what I wanted to 2 know. 3 MR. ADIN: Yes. 4 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you. I 5 probably should know that. Al? 6 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson. Our 7 consensus here is that as long -- we don't have 8 any problem using the default loss curves as long 9 as they're the same ones that are used to 10 calculate the minimum standard. We have no 11 problem. 12 MS. WIDDER: All right. Thank you. 13 That's very helpful. 14 MR. BROOKMAN: That's for that input. 15 That's helpful. 16 MS. WIDDER: Okay. Great. 17 MR. BROOKMAN: I just wondered if there 18 are any other inputs? Nothing additional from the 19 other caucus? Okay. 20 MS. WIDDER: Okay. So the -- that's the 21 end of discussing testing, rating, determining the 22 PEI of a bare pump sold with a motor. It was very

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Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-18-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 89 1 similar to rating a bare pump except for the 2 change in motor efficiency, especially because we 3 didn't receive feedback -- thank you for that -- 4 that it's not necessary to determine tested part 5 load efficiencies. I think that makes all our 6 lives easier. 7 So now moving on to the option of a -- 8 or the configuration of a bare pump sold with a 9 motor and controls and how that varies. This will 10 be a little bit different than the case of a bare 11 pump or a bare pump with motors. 12 So we have two options again that are 13 similar to the bare pump or bare pump plus motor 14 case. The first one is a calculation-based option 15 where we have just tested the pump in a test 16 stand. We have manufacturer or default motor 17 efficiency. Either of those can be used. Really 18 it's probably manufacturer because it's difficult 19 to put a drive on a pump without a motor. 20 But from a regulatory perspective, we 21 don't really -- yeah. You could -- you know what, 22 we're not wanting to limit to anyone's

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Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-18-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 90 1 distribution options as part of this. 2 And the default controls performance in 3 this case would be a described system curve that 4 would be used to determine how pump shaft input 5 power and then subsequent input power to the pump 6 system dropped off with respect to flow rate based 7 on this described system curve that we'll provide 8 a visual of. 9 And then option B is to instead of 10 calculating those input powers to the pump system 11 at those flow rates, you would just go and test 12 them in a wire-to-water method, input power to the 13 controls. So we're going to talk about the 14 calculation method here and then we'll talk about 15 the testing method when we get to the wire-to16 water testing portion of this slide deck. 17 So here is the weighted average 18 equation. In this case, the main difference is 19 that we have different flow points, 25, 50, 75 and 20 100 percent of BEP flow as opposed to the three 21 75, 100 and 110 percent for the uncontrolled case. 22 And that is -- was determined by this group to be

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Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-18-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 91 1 more representative of the performance you might 2 see in a controlled system. 3 Still equal weighting. The one point in 4 the pump performance category that I'd like to 5 emphasize is that the 100 percent of BEP flow rate 6 for this case when you're calculating the 7 performance is the only tested point. That is the 8 only data you need, that the pump shaft input 9 power at 100 percent of BEP flow is then 10 extrapolated using this system curve to the 11 different flow points down the curve. 12 So that best efficiency point on this 13 flow versus head curve, the blue curve is the 14 regular pump curve that you would follow with no 15 speed reduction and then the green curve is -- it 16 says original VFD load profile but it's 17 essentially the affinity laws, you know, a squared 18 equation of head with respect to flow. 19 And then we received some feedback from 20 manufacturers -- this has been discussed before -- 21 that we should assume a static head component of 22 the system curve. Was that --

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 92 1 MR. HUBER: Twenty percent. 2 MS. WIDDER: Yeah, 20 percent of head at 3 BEP flow. So we changed the equation a little bit 4 to accommodate that. But essentially that BEP 5 flow point is the only tested point that comes 6 from 40.6. 7 And then you plug in the head at BEP and 8 flow at BEP and then that Q is the percentage of 9 BEP flow that you're looking for, 25 percent of 10 BEP flow that is also calculated. And then you 11 get the head at that place and then you can 12 calculate the power or you can do some 13 manipulations to this equation to give you power 14 if this is the output. 15 But essentially, that's BEP flow -- 100 16 percent of BEP flow is the only tested point. And 17 then we have assumed this system curve to 18 calculate the rest of our head or power -- shaft 19 input power values that would go into the 20 equation. 21 In terms of motor performance, the L 22 rated, the rated full load losses is that of the

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 93 1 motor paired with the pump, so the motor 2 efficiency that is paired with that pump -- bare 3 pump -- is what would be used. The same default 4 loss curve or there was some discussion about 5 potentially different loss curves for the 6 controlled system. That might be appropriate, but 7 default loss curves that would be described in the 8 test procedure. 9 And then the controlled performance, it 10 does not need -- is captured by that calculation 11 of the reduced power -- shaft input power, 12 assuming the system curve. 13 So there's really no other -- it's 14 already captured in the way we calculated pump 15 shaft input power. We don't need to do anything 16 else except for account for drive efficiency so 17 that we can ensure that if you were to do the 18 wire-to-water test, you would get a better value. 19 In this case, we've assumed a static 20 drive efficiency of 96 percent. We of course 21 welcome data and input on that, if there should be 22 a curve associated with it, if it should be more

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 94 1 conservative, all of this. Yes, Al? 2 MR. HUBER: You have to have a curve 3 with this. 4 MS. WIDDER: Okay. 5 MR. HUBER: And you're going to have to 6 be -- you need to be conservative -- 7 MS. WIDDER: Mm-hmm. 8 MR. HUBER: -- because there's not a lot 9 of tested data. But we know that it does not 10 remain at 96. 11 MS. WIDDER: Okay. 12 MR. HUBER: And we know that it could go 13 as low as 50, 60 down at 25. So that's a huge -- 14 it could be a huge delta. 15 MS. WIDDER: Okay. 16 MR. HUBER: And you can't -- if you 17 don't, we'll never have anything to pass -- 18 MS. WIDDER: Right, and that -- 19 MR. HUBER: -- if we're testing it and 20 that's not what we're after here. 21 MS. WIDDER: No, that's not what any of 22 us want.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 95 1 MR. HUBER: So I -- you know, there is 2 some data. We sent you some data. 3 MS. WIDDER: Yes. 4 MR. HUBER: And you know, you might want 5 to share it with this group so that these other 6 folks could see it. 7 MS. WIDDER: Okay. 8 MR. HUBER: But it's got to be very, 9 very conservative so that we make sure that when 10 we test, we get something better. I mean, that's 11 what we're all after anyway, so. 12 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. 13 MR. HUBER: The other thing that I would 14 -- I would like to point out is that you need to - 15 - you need to develop a loss curve for motors used 16 with controls. As Bob was saying, one of the 17 problems that we have is, is that we know the 18 efficiency drops off because of a change in the 19 sine wave and the frequency and so forth. 20 So that also needs to be developed and 21 put in here. Otherwise you're going to end up 22 with two controls -- motor loss curves, one for

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 96 1 controlled, one for variable. 2 MS. WIDDER: Right. 3 MR. HUBER: And you're going to have to 4 have it. Otherwise, again, we're going to be -- 5 we're going to be penalizing the pump and when we 6 test the whole combination it's not going to work 7 out. 8 MS. WIDDER: Right. Okay, so that's one 9 thing. So thank you very much for that input. I 10 have not had time to look -- I have looked at the 11 data you sent but I haven't translated it all the 12 way to curves yet, although I'm working on that, 13 and will be able to share it soon. 14 So one question that I would have -- and 15 this is part of the reason I didn't send out the 16 calculator, is that there's not a different motor 17 loss curves or efficiency -- drive efficiency 18 curves incorporated into version 12 of the 19 calculator at this time. Would you want to wait 20 for that or not? Okay. 21 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber. 22 MR. HUBER: Our suggestion is that you

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 97 1 make it a separate calculator. 2 MS. WIDDER: Okay. 3 MR. HUBER: So you have one calculator 4 for constant load and one calculator for variable 5 load. 6 MS. WIDDER: Okay. 7 MR. HUBER: Then you can go ahead and 8 issue the one for controlled. 9 MS. WIDDER: Okay, that's a good 10 suggestion. 11 MR. HUBER: I mean, the constant load 12 and then we would have that and then develop the 13 other one. 14 MS. WIDDER: Okay. 15 MR. HUBER: And then we'd be glad to 16 help you with it or comment on it or whatever. 17 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. 18 MR. HUBER: But I think that's what we 19 need to do in this case. 20 MS. WIDDER: Okay. 21 MR. HUBER: They are two separate 22 things. Let's keep them separated. I think it'll

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 98 1 be clearer for the -- for the users and for the 2 industry to understand. 3 MS. WIDDER: Okay, great. 4 MR. BROOKMAN: Rob Boteler? 5 MR. BOTELER: Yeah, Rob Boteler with 6 Nidec. Yeah, we would agree. Nidec motor 7 manufacturers have been discussing this with some 8 of the drive manufacturers. 9 And we'd agree with what Al said, that 10 the losses are considerably -- the efficiency is 11 considerably less than the 96, maybe not into the 12 50s but certainly into the 80s on the lower 13 horsepower machines and slightly higher on the 14 higher horsepower. 15 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, Louis Starr? 16 MR. STARR: So eventually this -- it 17 sounds like they're going to do part load of the 18 controlled one here at full load but then also 19 maybe the other points. And I guess we're 20 assuming 25, 50 and 75. Is that kind of the 21 thought, Sarah, of what the other drive points we 22 might be sticking in to develop a load loss --

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 99 1 MS. WIDDER: Oh, a loss curve. 2 MR. STARR: Yeah, for -- 3 MS. WIDDER: Yes. It probably would 4 take a general format similar to the motor losses 5 where you would have a full load efficiency and 6 then some sort of -- 7 MR. STARR: Cubic equation. 8 MS. WIDDER: Yeah, cubic or other type 9 of, you know, equation that described how that 10 efficiency changed with load, with decreased load. 11 MR. STARR: Right. 12 MS. WIDDER: And maybe it's linear in 13 this case. 14 MR. STARR: Right. 15 MS. WIDDER: You know, maybe you're -- 16 maybe it's -- there's an exponential. 17 MR. STARR: Right. So the other part of 18 that is that it would be handy to have that 19 information. 20 When people test that, we'd want to know 21 the test points that -- the results of the rest 22 points that those 25, 50, 75 and 100, the same

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 100 1 kind of input information that goes in calculating 2 the PER or PEI in this case. Or would you just -- 3 you would just -- in a tested case, I assume -- 4 how would that work? 5 MS. WIDDER: So in a tested, what's been 6 discussed here, although we could -- I mean, 7 there's other options. What's been discussed here 8 is similar to -- for the calculation case, we 9 would just test the pump and then you have the 10 tested motor, full load efficiency and a loss 11 curve. The tested drive -- well, actually no. 12 MR. STARR: No. 13 MS. WIDDER: We don't have a test for 14 drives. We would assume a drive efficiency and a 15 loss curve and that would be the calculation 16 option. And then if someone wanted to test, it 17 would be a full wire-to-water test. 18 MR. STARR: Okay, and -- 19 MS. WIDDER: Pump to drive. 20 MR. STARR: And that would be at the 25, 21 50, 75? 22 MS. WIDDER: yes, it would be at the

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 101 1 same load points. You would have the same output 2 which is the input power to the pump system at the 3 flow points. 4 MR. STARR: Yeah, okay. 5 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. 6 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber? 7 MR. HUBER: So there's no confusion, the 8 100, 75, 50 and 25 are percentages of BEP. 9 MS. WIDDER: Mm-hmm. 10 MR. HUBER: So the drive speed may not 11 be 25. It may not be 50. It may not -- it's 12 going to be something else and it really doesn't 13 in this case matter. But I mean, you -- 14 MR. STARR: Have that difference. 15 MR. HUBER: You have that difference. So 16 you know, we've got to develop some kind of curve. 17 The industry -- the controlled industry, since 18 they're selling variable speed, you would think 19 that they would've already done this. But they 20 have not. 21 (Laughter.) 22 I think it was nice for them to say it's all 98

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 102 1 percent and we're great. But it's just not that 2 way. So you know, that's something we have to 3 have. But we do definitely need this loss curve 4 and I don't know -- and it needs to be 5 conservative again and we'll need the motor loss 6 curve too. 7 MS. WIDDER: Mm-hmm. 8 MR. HUBER: And they have that. So you 9 just need separate ones and I think we'll be fine. 10 MS. WIDDER: Okay. 11 MR. HUBER: But we want to make sure 12 that we don't penalize those people who are trying 13 to test. 14 MR. ALASCIO: I understand the motor 15 loss curve -- (off mic). 16 MR. BROOKMAN: Jeff? Jeff, would you 17 say that for the microphone please? 18 MR. ALASCIO: I believe that the motor 19 loss curves that were provided by NEMA were based 20 on sine wave power at different loads, not on 21 inverter power at different loads and they would 22 in fact be different.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 103 1 MR. HUBER: Al Huber. Yeah, they do -- 2 they definitely will be different. And we need 3 those, so. 4 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you. Louis 5 Starr? 6 MR. STARR: Just one thing to consider. 7 You know, once the pump guys get busy and start 8 testing all this stuff, you're going to start to 9 see -- 10 MR. CASE: We already do see. 11 (Laughter.) 12 MR. STARR: Well -- 13 MR. CASE: And it's not a good thing. 14 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you, Greg Case. Go 15 ahead, Louis. 16 MR. STARR: I was just going to say when 17 you're doing all that stuff, you're going to start 18 to see combinations of motors and VFDs and 19 performance. And so, the market will -- you know, 20 maybe the people that make motors and VFDs will 21 be, you know -- they may not -- 22 MR. CASE: (Off mic.)

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 104 1 MR. STARR: Yeah, so it'll encourage, 2 you know, information that helps you make things 3 more efficient. 4 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, great. I'm 5 returning to Sarah. 6 MS. WIDDER: Okay. So if captured, I 7 think that it's everyone's intent here and the 8 suggestion from Al that the drive efficiency will 9 determine something conservative based on any data 10 -- the data we've already received from HI and 11 NEMA as well as any other feedback we get. And 12 then, we'll come up with based on the same data an 13 assumed part load curve for drives. 14 And separate, Al, it should capture that 15 here, motors and unique part load loss curves. And 16 so we'll also have separate motor loss curves for 17 the controlled case. And you know, I don't have 18 those specifics to share with you today but 19 thankfully we don't need to decide on anything 20 today. But that intent is clear. So thank you. 21 MR. BROOKMAN: Rob Boteler? 22 MR. BOTELER: Yeah, I think one thing we

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 105 1 do need to -- we need to be careful here that 2 we're kind of oversimplifying because when we get 3 to the point of the drive working with the motor, 4 if we have no test standard today that's in effect 5 and if we do have a test standard then we're going 6 to have to decide what drive and the effects of 7 waveforms and the effects of switching frequencies 8 and all of those things come into play. So there 9 isn't -- it isn't an easy answer. 10 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. 11 MR. BOTELER: I mean, it can be very 12 difficult and DOE or the pump manufacturers will 13 have to describe what drive, what motor and give 14 us a lot more detail before we could give you 15 really accurate results. 16 MS. WIDDER: Right. 17 MR. BOTELER: Typical we can do. But it 18 depends on what the level of accuracy needs to be. 19 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber? 20 MR. HUBER: For the minimum condition, I 21 mean, I think the pump manufacturers' suggestion 22 for that -- for simplicity -- that you just give

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 106 1 us the typical and then we'll discount it somewhat 2 and know that we can always beat it. And that's 3 what we're after, Rob. 4 We're not after -- we're not after 5 accurate -- we're going to be after you and these 6 control people as an industry to tell us 7 accurately what you do so we can decide whose 8 motor and whose control we want to use. 9 MR. BOTELER: Right. 10 MS. WIDDER: Right. But -- 11 MR. HUBER: So, but I think for the sake 12 of this -- 13 MR. BOTELER: For this exercise, it'll 14 be typical data. 15 MR. HUBER: Yeah. 16 MS. WIDDER: Right. For this exercise, 17 it'll be typically data and then appropriate 18 discounting, as Al noted, scaling, normalizing, 19 representative of worst case, however you want to 20 describe it. 21 Yeah, so and I -- so one of the reasons 22 we assumed a static efficiency was because the

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 107 1 data is so, A, difficult to find and, B, it's not 2 clear that there's as consistent of a trend or as 3 -- yeah, as consistent of a trend as we saw with 4 the motor losses. In some cases it'll go up and 5 in some cases down, in some cases a lot more down. 6 And so, it might be difficult to 7 describe a representative change in efficiency 8 with decreased loading. So we had assumed a 9 static which we could, you know, assume a very 10 conservative static efficiency. But we'll look at 11 the data and we will do the best that we can to 12 come up with something typical and conservative 13 which I think is clearly what's the intent of the 14 group. 15 Okay. So we already looked at the 16 assumed load curve that -- or system curve that 17 would be applied by the pump to determine the 18 shaft input power at the different flow points. 19 This is just an example calculation for one of the 20 flow points. So this is now taking that head 21 equation and then converting it to power. 22 And so, you're calculating -- you're

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 108 1 using BEP, the power at BEP to determine the power 2 at 75 percent of BEP flow by plugging in the BEP 3 flow and head values and then the flow rate that 4 you're looking for, which is 75 percent of BEP 5 flow or 705 gallons per minute in this case. And 6 you can see the dramatic reduction in the table on 7 the left. 8 It's applied to all of the rating 9 points, same equation, same way and dramatic 10 reduction in power. So this is another thing that 11 I will just reflecting on the values in the table 12 note about the drive efficiency and motor 13 efficiency and trading off again -- we do want to 14 make sure it's conservative I think or 15 representative of worst case such that the testing 16 will do better. 17 I think that is a very important 18 objective. But the extent to which it is 19 technically accurate, like -- or and 20 representative of the actual performance of the 21 motor and the drive traded off with the complexity 22 of what types of equations might need to be

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 109 1 described to characterize that should just be 2 considered when you think about how that will play 3 out with respect to these dramatic decreases in 4 power. 5 So the efficiency of the drive will 6 affect these numbers but we're dropping off a lot. 7 And so, the impact on the power is going to be 8 much more dramatic. And so, it's not that we 9 don't want the calculation to be conservative and 10 worse than testing. We definitely want that. 11 So assuming we achieve that, that's not 12 up for debate, you know, the one thing -- we'll 13 work with the data we have and all of the 14 manufacturers to come up with something we're all 15 comfortable with. But just thinking about, you 16 know, efficiency and loss curves versus a static 17 number, you know, maybe a conservative static 18 number might be easier to apply and not -- because 19 the impact is so minor with respect to the larger 20 impact of the power -- Al, you look like you want 21 to comment on something. 22 MR. HUBER: Yeah, I think -- again,

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 110 1 we've discussed this amongst ourselves. It's a 2 fairly broad range. 3 MS. WIDDER: Mm-hmm. 4 MR. HUBER: And one static constant I 5 don't think is going to get it. 6 MS. WIDDER: Okay. 7 MR. HUBER: I think we want to see a 8 curve. 9 MS. WIDDER: You want to see a curve. 10 MR. HUBER: We want to see a curve. 11 MS. WIDDER: All right. You're the one 12 that has to use the curve, so that's fine with me. 13 MR. HUBER: And what it will show -- so 14 what it would show is those horsepower will 15 actually go up at the lower levels. 16 MS. WIDDER: Yeah, mm-hmm. 17 MR. HUBER: And then when we test it, 18 they'll be below that. 19 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. 20 MR. HUBER: So but it's still going to 21 show dramatic. Even if we're conservative, it's 22 still going to show dramatic changes and that's

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 111 1 what we want I think as a whole group. 2 MS. WIDDER: Right. 3 MR. HUBER: But we just don't want to 4 box ourselves in the corner where we can't -- 5 MS. WIDDER: Mm-hmm, you can't test. 6 Right. 7 MR. HUBER: We can't achieve it. That 8 one static would have to be something way low. 9 MS. WIDDER: Right, and it might not be 10 representative. 11 MR. HUBER: And it's probably not going 12 to be representative. You've got to come up with 13 a curve. 14 MS. WIDDER: Okay, we've got to do a 15 curve. Great. Thank you. 16 MR. ADIN: So just to emphasize the 17 point, which we made here and there, but the 18 conservative part is completely understood. But 19 I'm going to -- obviously we want it to be as 20 reasonably representative as possible of the 21 minimally compliant system. 22 So it's like we do with the motor.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 112 1 That's easy. We can just say the minimally 2 compliant is the DOE standard. We don't have that 3 in this case. 4 But we can say, well, we're going to at 5 least try to get as good an idea as we can about 6 what the minimally compliant system would be based 7 on the worst case drive and that should serve 8 these purposes, as far as I can tell. If you 9 think otherwise, we'd like to know that, but -- 10 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber? 11 MR. HUBER: The only issue we have is 12 that that minimally compliant system is not known. 13 MS. WIDDER: Right. 14 MR. HUBER: And so we would rather err 15 on the side of being conservative than your 16 writing a rule and then we end up where we can't 17 meet it in a tested form. 18 MR. ADIN: That's -- 19 MR. HUBER: And you know, that I don't 20 think serves anybody's purpose. 21 MR. ADIN: That's completely understood. 22 Maybe to try and articulate that a little more

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 113 1 clearly, I understood that we don't know exactly 2 what that is. But we at least want to have a good 3 enough idea of what representative means in this 4 case. So it's based on something. You know, 5 we're not just picking a number out of the air. I 6 think we're all on the same page on that. 7 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. 8 MR. ADIN: Yeah. Okay. 9 MS. WIDDER: Okay, great. So applying 10 this method, those calculated values and equally 11 weighting them, we determine a PER -- a variable 12 load PER for controlled system in this case of 13 23.33 for the same pump, much lower than the 49 14 numbers we were seeing before. That's the intent. 15 Good, we've accomplished our goal. 16 And so, when we calculated this, this 17 just states how we calculated this number. It 18 will change, as Al has mentioned, based on 19 assuming a different minimum drive efficiency and 20 a different controlled motor loss curve and drive 21 loss curve. So it will change but it will not 22 change the fact that it's a much lower number than

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 114 1 the variable load number. Yeah? 2 MR. ALASCIO: Jeff Alascio with ABB. I 3 guess just as a thought process, if you use 96 4 today and you came up with 23.33, if you just made 5 that just for fun 30 percent, how much would that 6 PER change? 7 MS. WIDDER: I will have to get back to 8 you on that. 9 (Laughter.) 10 MR. ALASCIO: The point I'm trying to 11 make is, is if you go to the extremes -- 12 MS. WIDDER: Right. 13 MR. ALASCIO: And it doesn't change the 14 PER, does it really matter? 15 MS. WIDDER: Right. So that's -- and 16 that's the point I was trying to make. So it will 17 not -- it will not make this maybe 25 or 27 or, 18 you know, it will -- it will still be dramatically 19 lower than the 49 and that's the exact point I was 20 trying to make. If we do a curve versus a static 21 that's really conservative, you know, it -- what's 22 that?

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 115 1 MR. ECKMAN: The problem is comparing it 2 with a tested result that doesn't have that in it, 3 that static effect. So that's -- 4 MR. ALASCIO: That's what we're worried 5 about. 6 MR. ECKMAN: That's what you're worried 7 about and that's what we're worried about. 8 MS. WIDDER: Right. 9 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, so that was -- 10 thank you, Tom Eckman. Okay. 11 MS. WIDDER: Right. The static would 12 still need to be conservative but yeah, so but so 13 to his point, it would have to be like 30 percent 14 or something to make sure it's conservative and 15 that's not representative, as we've discussed. But 16 I do note the point that, you know, regardless of 17 what we do here we're going to capture the 18 benefits of a drive. But we want to be 19 representative and conservative. 20 Okay, and then we just ratio it to 21 determine the PEI. In this case, as we get PEIs 22 much farther from one, like 0.5-ish, you all have

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 116 1 seen in the calculator, as opposed to near one. So 2 this was the PERs, just a summary of the PERs that 3 we observed in the previous calculations. You can 4 see we accounted for the more efficient motor and 5 we accounted dramatically for the effect of 6 controlling the system and putting it on a drive. 7 Okay, so now we're going to talk about 8 the wire-to-water test methods a little bit. This 9 is referred to as a string test in HI 14.6. It's 10 discussed a little bit. It's not in the current 11 draft of HI 40.6 although it's extremely -- most 12 of the methods are described. The pump part of 13 the methods are described. The only change that's 14 necessary for a wire-to-water test is specifying 15 the electrical measurement equipment and then 16 everything else in the test is pretty much exactly 17 the same. 18 But in this case, we would be measuring 19 the input power to the motor or the system at the 20 specific load points and using those directly. We 21 don't have to do any calculation of losses. That's 22 done for us. I didn't have -- this is just

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 117 1 calculating -- this is showing or demonstrating 2 using some data that we had that we do want in 3 fact to be conservative with the calculated value 4 such that the calculated value results in a higher 5 PER than the tested PER slightly. 6 But you know, we'll just have to look at 7 more data to make sure that this is true for all 8 cases and specifically for the drive cases. One 9 thing that I didn't have a slide on but I do want 10 -- do want to note is the specification of the 11 electrical measurement equipment that would be 12 upstream of the pump and the drive is something we 13 would like input on. 14 We've based it on available industry 15 standards. So what's used to measure motor -- 16 input power to the motor in IEEE 112(b) and then 17 there's a CSA standard for measuring drive 18 efficiency, also an AHRI standard that's under 19 development for measuring drive efficiency and 20 we've used those standards to reference what 21 electrical measurement equipment might be 22 required.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 118 1 In the case of a motor, it's mostly just 2 two watt meters since we're on a polyphase system, 3 two watt meter method. And then for a drive, in 4 most cases that's the same equipment can be used. 5 But it needs to be able to capture real power in 6 harmonics instead of just volts and amps, so yeah, 7 little bit more complicated. 8 That will be specified in more detail in 9 the NOPR and, you know, I mentioned the standards 10 that we're looking at to determine the appropriate 11 electrical measurement equipment. But we of 12 course welcome more specific feedback from NEMA as 13 well as the pump manufacturers that might need to 14 implement -- to have that electrical measurement 15 equipment to measure the input power accurately. 16 Okay. So moving on to the wire-to-water 17 test for a bare pump motor and controls, oh, this 18 is a little bit of specifics on -- this is what's 19 in AHRI 1210, just to provide you all with a 20 little bit of information about what's in that 21 standard. 22 They specify that the input power should

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 119 1 be measured using instruments capable of measuring 2 current voltage and real power and then as 3 designated by this IEC standard and having 4 accuracy of plus or minus 0.2 percent of full 5 scale at the supply source frequency. So we are 6 considering referencing similar instruments in for 7 the wire-to-water test. But other than that, it 8 would reference 40.6 in terms of a method of test 9 or a protocol. 10 So you can see the request there. Are 11 there any other inputs or changes necessary to the 12 40.6 procedure besides the electrical measurement 13 instruments and where they might be located in the 14 test setup that would be needed to measure a pump 15 system in a wire-to-water manner? Yes, Greg? 16 Gary? 17 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. So 18 speaking from the perspective of the electric 19 utilities, customers pay for reactive power. 20 MS. WIDDER: Mm-hmm. 21 MR. FERNSTROM: And I think in 22 evaluating the economics of a large system, you

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 120 1 would want to know the power factor such that you 2 could consider that in terms of evaluating the 3 utility cost savings versus the initial 4 investment. 5 MS. WIDDER: Okay. I'm going to 6 consider that recommendation. Thank you. 7 MR. FERNSTROM: So Louis suggested you 8 might just put a capacitor in to correct the power 9 factor. But where you're dealing with nonlinear 10 waveforms in electronic switching, capacitors 11 don't always work to correct it. 12 MS. WIDDER: Mm-hmm. 13 MR. FERNSTROM: Anyway, this is a 14 significant cost issue and I think it's important 15 that you all consider it. 16 MS. WIDDER: Yes. 17 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you, Gary. 18 MS. WIDDER: Just noting that. Okay, so 19 I encourage -- this is, as Gary mentioned, not 20 technically difficult in terms of the test method 21 but getting the instruments correct is an issue 22 that we'd really like some input from

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 121 1 manufacturers on. And so we'll hopefully welcome 2 any input later or as part of the proposal. 3 Okay, so this is just a summary slide 4 that discusses the pros and cons of the 5 calculation versus testing methods as they've been 6 presented. The calculation method, which we've 7 been treating as a default, is repeatable and less 8 burdensome but it doesn't differentiate the 9 different controls' performance and we have to 10 make assumptions about how those systems perform 11 at different loadings. 12 Because of that, the physical test 13 method could be available as an option that's 14 accurate -- more accurate and representative of 15 the performance of different types of motor 16 controls either within the type or different, 17 like, types of motors like ECMs versus induction 18 motors. It is obviously more burdensome. 19 I can delete this thing. I'm going to 20 say drive data -- drive test data is not 21 available. But I think we are all on -- we're all 22 generally it seems like in agreement that the

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 122 1 calculation method would be available as a default 2 for all pumps and then testing would be available 3 to demonstrate the superior performance or 4 improved performance of different types of motors 5 and controls in a wire-to-water testing method as 6 an option in the test procedure. 7 One question with regard to how these 8 calculation and physical testing methods are 9 implemented is whether or not that default option 10 -- the default calculation and then the optional 11 testing method should be available for all pumps 12 or if physical testing is more appropriate only 13 for some classes of pumps, like submersible pumps 14 that are always sold with a motor. And there's 15 also a question about -- well, I'll leave that 16 question first and see if we have any input on 17 that. Yeah? 18 MR. POTTS: Yeah, Sarah, Doug Potts from 19 American Water. I just have a question about that 20 where you say differentiating with equipment at 21 full load and part load. 22 MS. WIDDER: Mm-hmm.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 123 1 MR. POTTS: And maybe I'm just confusing 2 things here. But I thought the only test point 3 for variable speed was at the full speed, at the 4 100 percent of the -- 100 percent speed. So what 5 do you mean there by part load? 6 MS. WIDDER: So I guess what I mean for 7 the wire-to-water test, you would be testing the 8 full system at each load point. 9 MR. POTTS: Okay. 10 MS. WIDDER: So you're differentiating 11 the performance of a given motor, for example, an 12 ECM motor both -- you're capturing both the 13 improved efficiency at full load as well as the 14 improved efficiency at part load that may be 15 better than the default loss curve or the change 16 in efficiency we've assumed. 17 MR. POTTS: So, well maybe I'm just 18 confused because what were you referring to in 19 that previous slide when you said that it's only 20 at -- for variable speed you're only testing at 21 your full speed and then you're calculating the 22 rest?

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 124 1 MS. WIDDER: So that's for the pump 2 only, the input power to the pump. 3 MR. POTTS: Okay. 4 MS. WIDDER: And then, so there's the 5 calculation method and then an optional testing 6 method. 7 MR. POTTS: Okay. 8 MS. WIDDER: With the calculation 9 method, you test the pump per HI 40.6, determine 10 the BEP power, determine the shaft input power to 11 the pump at different flow rates using the assumed 12 system curve, find the full load motor efficiency 13 of the motor that's paired with the pump, take 14 that efficiency, apply the motor loss curve, 15 combine them together. Then you have drive 16 efficiency and a drive efficiency curve, add that 17 on and then that is your PEI. 18 So that's the calculation method, lots 19 of calculations. Then there's the wire-to-water 20 testing method where you just put the full pump 21 motor and drive on the test stand, measure the 22 electrical input power to the drive, measure the

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 125 1 output -- hydraulic output of the pump at the 2 specific flow rates, 25, 50, 75, 100 percent of 3 BEP flow, and then you have -- you input that data 4 as opposed to the calculations. And so, in that 5 way you're capturing the actual performance of 6 that system -- 7 MR. POTTS: Right. 8 MS. WIDDER: -- that might be better 9 than the loss curves we've assumed or the 10 efficiency we've assumed for the drive in 11 particular. 12 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary Fernstrom? 13 MR. POTTS: Yeah, what -- 14 MR. BROOKMAN: Doug, keep going. Doug? 15 MR. POTTS: Do you mind if I just -- 16 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. 17 MR. POTTS: -- follow up? How -- when 18 you're performing that test for the variable speed 19 and we're saying that we want to use a curve where 20 we're at zero flow we have a 20 percent static 21 head component -- 22 MS. WIDDER: Mm-hmm.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 126 1 MR. POTTS: How do you control that in a 2 testing situation? 3 MS. WIDDER: You just have to. 4 MR. POTTS: This is designed -- 5 MS. WIDDER: No. 6 MR. POTTS: You initially have to have a 7 test stand where at static head it's set at 20 8 percent of your -- at full head? 9 MS. WIDDER: No, because you can adjust. 10 So typically test stands are set up that they have 11 a throttling valve. So to determine the pump 12 curve, you're changing flow rate in the system 13 along the pump curve. And so, your head is 14 changing with respect to flow and then you also 15 have a drive on the front now that can reduce your 16 speed. 17 And so, you have two variables that you 18 sort of have to change simultaneously using a 19 little bit -- I mean, there's going to be a little 20 bit of hunting and pecking involved here because 21 they're not related to each other. 22 MR. POTTS: Right.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 127 1 MS. WIDDER: This is -- but this is 2 possible to do. We've had a test lab do it for us 3 here and it's also what's implemented for the 4 circulator test procedure in the EU. They specify 5 actually a linear system curve. And so, you're 6 reducing speed and throttling the system at the 7 same time to achieve points on this fabricated 8 system curve. 9 MR. POTTS: Following that curve, okay. 10 MS. WIDDER: Does that make sense? 11 MR. POTTS: Yeah, I think so. 12 MS. WIDDER: Okay. 13 MR. POTTS: Yeah. Thanks. 14 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary? 15 MR. FERNSTROM: Sarah, this is Gary. So 16 one more electrical minutia issue. You referred 17 to the two watt meter method. 18 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. 19 MR. FERNSTROM: And using that 20 methodology, you measure two phases and infer 21 what's going on with the third. 22 MS. WIDDER: Yep.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 128 1 MR. FERNSTROM: That works well when you 2 have phase balance. 3 MS. WIDDER: Mm-hmm. 4 MR. FERNSTROM: But I can anticipate 5 this test being done in some plants where this 6 equipment is plugged into the wall in effect and 7 the factory may not have very good phase balance. 8 So I think it's important that we specify a three 9 phase wattmeter. 10 MS. WIDDER: Okay. Thank you for that. 11 MR. BROOKMAN: Joanna Mauer? 12 MS. MAUER: So I think we may have 13 talked about this before but I can't remember what 14 the answer was. Are submersible pumps always 15 filled with the motor or generally filled with the 16 motor but not always? 17 MR. HANDZEL: Well, they have to have -- 18 MR. BROOKMAN: Mark, your microphone 19 please. 20 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel, from Xylem. 21 They obviously have to have a motor to drive them. 22 Some of the larger sizes, which is what's covered

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 129 1 here, we sell the pump only and our distributors 2 may pair up a motor with it at their side just 3 because, again, multiple horsepower could go on 4 the same pump end. So other times, we sell the 5 pump with the motor. So it's a combination, okay? 6 MS. MAUER: And for those of you that do 7 sell these submersible pumps, would you have 8 concerns with being required to test with the 9 motor when you are selling the pump with the 10 motor? 11 MR. HANDZEL: Well, certainly we -- Mark 12 Handzel, from Xylem, again. We performance test 13 to qualify the pump design. So we have 14 performance data already, you know, that we're 15 using to make the selections of which pump we're 16 using. 17 MS. MAUER: For the bare pump? 18 MR. HANDZEL: Mm-hmm. Well, the bare 19 pump with the motor. 20 MS. MAUER: Bare pump with the motor. 21 MR. HANDZEL: Yeah. 22 MS. MAUER: Because I think the -- I

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 130 1 think Sarah's posing a question of whether for 2 certain pump types it may be appropriate to 3 require testing with the motor and to not have the 4 option of using a default. 5 MR. HANDZEL: Right. So but it's a -- 6 and just understand too it's a certified motor so 7 that we know, you know, we've measured all the 8 performance data of that motor so we know, you 9 know, exactly what the motor input horsepower is 10 required and everything to drive the pump. 11 MS. MAUER: So I guess my question is so 12 if you're -- for submersible pumps, when you're 13 selling the pump with the motor, would you have 14 concerns with being required to test the pump and 15 motor as a combination as opposed to having the 16 option of using default values for the motor and 17 applying those default values to the bare pump 18 tested data? 19 MR. HANDZEL: I guess I'm struggling 20 with where I'm required to do it. What are you -- 21 MS. WIDDER: Right, so what Joanna is 22 referring to is this question below the table, the

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 131 1 first question here. Something we considered was 2 for some pumps that are more typically sold with 3 motors and not sold as bare pumps as often, you 4 could -- you still would use a certified 5 submersible motor and it would be, you know, 6 following the sampling plan. 7 But for those products, you wouldn't 8 test the bare pump and take the bare pump data 9 times the motor losses because we expect that the 10 -- they're always -- they're almost always going 11 to be sold in a pump plus motor configuration. But 12 if that's not worth limiting for any of the 13 equipment classes, then the answer to this 14 question is no. It's really just a question. 15 MS. WILLIAMS: So this is Alison. One 16 thing I wanted to add is I think one of the 17 reasons we asked about this was I'm not sure if 18 the compliant -- or the certified motor was -- is 19 that still in 40.6 as an option? 20 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. 21 MS. WILLIAMS: So I think that's why we 22 had put this in before was because we weren't sure

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 132 1 certified motors were going to be an option for 2 getting bare pump performance. 3 MS. WIDDER: Mm-hmm, right. 4 MS. WILLIAMS: So if it is an option, 5 this is probably less relevant. 6 MS. WIDDER: Right. 7 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah. 8 MS. WIDDER: It's still a question. 9 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah. 10 MS. WIDDER: Yeah? 11 MS. MAUER: This is Joanna. What is -- 12 what's a certified motor? 13 MS. WIDDER: A certified motor is a 14 motor that's -- it's essentially been like 15 calibrated and so instead of measuring -- 16 MS. MAUER: I see. 17 MS. WIDDER: -- speed and -- 18 MR. HANDZEL: Yeah, it's a calibrated 19 motor. It's a better word. It's calibrated. 20 MS. WIDDER: Yeah, a calibrated motor. 21 MS. MAUER: Oh, okay. 22 MS. WIDDER: And so instead of measuring

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 133 1 speed and torque directly, you can measure input 2 power to the motor and because you've calibrated 3 that motor you know what's on the other side 4 because you've specified it very precisely. 5 MS. MAUER: Okay, so not -- it's 6 something that's not the motor that's sold with 7 the -- 8 MS. WIDDER: No. 9 MS. MAUER: It's kind of a value that 10 all -- that's consistent across. 11 MS. WIDDER: Mm-hmm. 12 MS. MAUER: Okay. 13 MR. HUBER: It's part of the testing. 14 MS. WIDDER: Yeah, it's like a piece of 15 equipment that can be used to determine pump shaft 16 input power. 17 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber? 18 MR. HUBER: The industry uses calibrated 19 motors in the case of any direct couple pump, 20 whether it be an inline pump or submersible or a 21 closed-coupling end-suction. You would still -- 22 you would use a calibrated, what we call a

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 134 1 calibrated motor. That's a motor that the 2 manufacturer has certified, tested, calibrated and 3 made sure that at these load points this is what 4 it gets so that we can determine that pump 5 efficiency from that. 6 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 7 MS. WALTNER: Question, so Mark, when 8 you were talking -- 9 MR. BROOKMAN: Meg Waltner. 10 MS. WALTNER: Sorry. When you were 11 speaking earlier about testing of submersible 12 pumps, were you talking about testing them with a 13 calibrated motor? So that's not necessarily the 14 sort of -- or the motor that they're sold with. 15 MR. HANDZEL: Correct, so -- 16 MR. BROOKMAN: Mark Handzel. 17 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel, from Xylem. 18 So when we're creating performance data to publish 19 to customers for making selections, we create that 20 data using calibrated motors, per what Al just 21 described. Okay, but that is definitely, you 22 know, not what we'll be supplying, you know, when

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 135 1 we sell the product to a customer. 2 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay? Okay. 3 MS. WIDDER: Okay. So the second 4 question on here that I think I've just raised for 5 consideration is if there's changes or 6 specifications that need to be made for pumps sold 7 with motors that have dramatically different 8 sizing than is assumed for the standard case based 9 on 120 percent of load. 10 So if you have a bare pump or you're 11 calculating the PER standard, you're assuming that 12 you're sizing the motor based on rounding up 120 13 percent of shaft input power. 14 Now, the pump that would be sold with 15 the motor that we're testing is based on full 16 impeller and the question to the manufacturers is, 17 is there significant variability expected in that 18 tested model at full impeller from this 120 19 percent sizing criteria that would dramatically 20 affect the PEI for some pumps. 21 And if so, is there, you know, specific 22 changes that we would need to make so if you're,

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 136 1 you know, plus -- if you're more than 25 percent 2 away from the assumed size, you also make -- you 3 know, you also do that to the standard case. Or 4 there could be caveats that we can do to make this 5 more complicated. 6 And the question for manufacturers that 7 we really don't have the answer to is do you 8 anticipate a wide variety of motor sizes being -- 9 or a wide -- a lot of variability in the 10 difference between the pump input power at 120 11 percent and the motor size. 12 So that -- we're tying the motor size to 13 the shaft input power at 120 percent of BEP. But 14 if there's -- there are cases where for a full 15 impeller pump you might oversize it a lot more or 16 a lot less or something else, we might just want 17 to consider the implications of that. Yes, Al? 18 MR. HUBER: Normally, I say normally 19 because it's not always done, but normally you do 20 it for non-overloading power. 21 MS. WIDDER: Right. 22 MR. HUBER: SO it's throughout the

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 137 1 curve. 2 MS. WIDDER: Mm-hmm. 3 MR. HUBER: But I don't know, the 120 4 percent seems to be reasonable with our group. 5 MS. WIDDER: Okay. 6 MR. HUBER: We don't have a problem with 7 that. 8 MS. WIDDER: Great. 9 MR. HUBER: Going back to your thing 10 with submersibles, I assume the problem with 11 submersibles is they're not regulated so you've 12 got no -- you've got no data. 13 MS. WIDDER: Mm-hmm. 14 MR. HUBER: I'm sure that submersible 15 manufacturers would like to be able to calculate 16 it just like they're calculating the rest of it or 17 else their testing burden is going to get high. 18 MS. WIDDER: Right. 19 MR. HUBER: Am I correct? Do you agree 20 with that, Greg? 21 MS. WIDDER: So I appreciate that input. 22 Yeah.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 138 1 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg Towsley? 2 MR. TOWSLEY: No, I agree with what Al 3 said. And I think it goes back again to the 4 formula and the 120 percent. 5 MS. WIDDER: Mm-hmm. 6 MR. TOWSLEY: And I think as you look at 7 where you choose BEP and what that is and 120 8 percent and even if for some reason -- and I just 9 tried to run some numbers -- even if you did jump 10 up the additional motor size, I still think you're 11 going to be within that flatter part of that 12 variation on efficiency. 13 MS. WIDDER: Mm-hmm. 14 MR. TOWSLEY: It may go down further 15 below 75 percent. But I can only think that can 16 happen on much larger motors where the 17 efficiency's already much higher. 18 MS. WIDDER: Right. 19 MR. TOWSLEY: And less -- less of a -- 20 so I don't -- I don't think it's a problem. 21 MS. WIDDER: Okay. Good. That was -- 22 that was my assumption. But you -- the

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 139 1 manufacturers obviously know a lot more about the 2 universe of pumps. And these are really more 3 getting into the weeds questions where I think 4 we've done a good job and we're all on the same 5 page in terms of a general test procedure for 6 pumps. 7 And right now, we're trying to sort of 8 like clean up these exceptions, like these weird 9 cases that we don't know what to do with. And so, 10 I'm just trying to keep an eye out for those. When 11 we issue the new calculator, put in your pump and 12 motor data. And you know, if any questions or 13 comments arise as a result of that, that's what 14 we'll be looking for. 15 MR. BOOKMAN: Jay Sivigny? 16 MR. SIVIGNY: Jay Sivigny, Flowserve. 17 Sarah, quick question. I just want to confirm 18 that you were going to put in a separate motor 19 table for submersibles. 20 MS. WIDDER: Yes. 21 MR. SIVIGNY: Okay. 22 MS. WIDDER: Correct.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 140 1 MR. SIVIGNY: Okay. 2 MR. HANDZEL: And can you share that 3 with the manufacturers just so that -- because I 4 think one thing Greg -- Mark Handzel, from Xylem. 5 Just we need to dig into our monitor data little 6 bit further since, like, Grundfos and Xylem make 7 those motors. 8 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. 9 MR. BROOKMAN: So Mark asked could you 10 make sure that you provide that. 11 MS. WIDDER: Yes. 12 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 13 MS. WIDDER: Yes, that will -- it'll be 14 in the calculator. Yeah, it'll be in the 15 calculator that it will be sent, the constant load 16 one that's sent out today, so. Okay, so now we 17 are at the review of applying the test data to the 18 metric. We've already had significant discussion 19 of the metric. So this will just be really a 20 review of the equations. This is -- 21 MR. BROOKMAN: I think it's time to go 22 to lunch.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 141 1 MS. WIDDER: Okay, let's go to lunch. 2 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah, yeah. Good job 3 presenting. 4 (Applause.) 5 (WHEREUPON, a recess was taken.) 6 MR. BROOKMAN: Let me welcome Charlie 7 Cappellino. Glad you could join us. 8 MR. CAPPELLINO: Thank you, Doug. 9 MR. BROOKMAN: This morning we spent the 10 bulk of the morning talking about test procedure. 11 Sarah did a lot of presentation. Many of the 12 slides, much of the content was familiar and then 13 some of it was new. So we did a lot of 14 clarification on what was there and how it would 15 be applied and the like. 16 I promised that when we returned from 17 lunch that we would return to Gary's questions 18 about circulator pumps and whether we should use 19 the July meeting, that being one issue, as an 20 opportunity for this working group to advance on 21 the issue of circulators and other, I guess, 22 dedicated pool pumps; those were the two. And so

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 142 1 I thought I would open that up now. 2 Have you heard anything from anyone 3 about a DOE follow-on effort or anything such as 4 that? 5 Lucas Adin? 6 MR. ADIN: I'm waiting for some feedback 7 on that but I think it's safe to say we wouldn't 8 be able to provide immediate analytical support. 9 That's -- 10 MR. BROOKMAN: As like in immediate 11 being? 12 MR. ADIN: Not in July. 13 MR. BROOKMAN: Not in July. Okay. So 14 if we were to meet in July then the analytic team 15 would be bound up tight doing -- 16 MR. ADIN: Other things. 17 MR. BROOKMAN: Other things. 18 (Laughter.) 19 MR. ADIN: Including work in support of 20 this rule. 21 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. 22 MR. ADIN: Yeah, unfortunately their

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 143 1 work doesn't stop after today. 2 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah, so. Okay. Okay. 3 (Laughter.) 4 MR. ADIN: No comment. 5 (Laughter.) 6 MR. BROOKMAN: So I would just note that 7 when we established the scope for the rule making 8 my memory is and it is reflected in a meeting 9 summary that Alison and I have prepared which you 10 all should be receiving -- have you sent it yet? 11 MS. WILLIAMS: I have -- 12 MR. BROOKMAN: Backing up a step. We 13 have prepared a short document. It is about two 14 pages which is a record of all the votes that were 15 taken and all the results that are listed. And we 16 are sending that as soon as Jack gets it out to 17 you now so you can look at it this evening or 18 tomorrow morning and then we can go through it 19 tomorrow. The reason I am retracing this is 20 because in determining the scope one of the things 21 you all agreed to in that Joint Proposal was that 22 we would cue circulators and dedicated pool pumps

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 144 1 for some subsequent action by DOE and hopefully 2 soon and there was an ambitious follow-on date 3 given the capacity of DOE to deliver. 4 And so that is why Gary this morning 5 raised the issue of well maybe there is something 6 we could do with circulators. So Gary it looks 7 like you are ready to speak. 8 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. I just 9 wanted to make the, excuse me, observation 10 reflecting on the work of this group that DOE 11 wasn't really quite ready to supply immediate 12 analytical work for us when we started either 13 because we have sort of been doing analysis on the 14 fly as we've gone along. So I think there is some 15 benefit that can come from a discussion and work 16 on circulators even before the analytical team is 17 prepared to fully participate. 18 MR. BROOKMAN: And how would you see the 19 thrust of that conversation? Do you have the 20 shape in your mind? 21 MR. FERNSTROM: Well the shape in my 22 mind goes back to the presentation that we made on

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 145 1 the relative efficiency of PM ECM motor powered 2 circulators versus induction motor powered 3 circulators and the need to sort of settle in on 4 what a test procedure might look like because 5 there are a lot of different views on how that 6 might be done. 7 MR. BROOKMAN: Uh-huh. So it seems to 8 me there are a whole array of options here. We 9 have these dates established or I should say we 10 have then at least penciled on our calendars. I 11 am not going to -- Greg Towsley you go next. 12 MR. TOWLSEY: Give you time to think. 13 Greg Towsley. 14 MR. BROOKMAN: No, I knew what I didn't 15 want to say. 16 MR. TOWSLEY: Question for Gary. From 17 the testing that you did on circulators is it 18 possible to take some of the information you 19 gathered and the methodology you tested them and 20 then put them into the metric that we are looking 21 at now? The reason I am asking is Hydraulic 22 Institute Summer Meeting is next week and we have

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 146 1 a circulator committee meeting and one of the 2 topics is test methods as well as potential 3 directions on the metric and communications. And 4 Steve Thompson co-chairs that along with Mark. And 5 some feedback could be interesting for us for that 6 meeting. 7 MR. FERNSTROM: Well we can certainly 8 share what we did such that you can discuss it at 9 your meeting. What we did was more broad based to 10 broadly characterize the performance of this 11 equipment such that the results we got could be 12 translated into what you would find if you used 13 different specific test procedures. I don't know 14 that I could say how well the tests we ran 15 correlate with what this group is doing. I do 16 know that the testing we did was what we normally 17 think of conventional pump testing where we 18 characterized the head and flow or hydraulic power 19 as a function of electrical power input. 20 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber? 21 MR. HUBER: First of all we don't really 22 think testing is going to be a problem. And we

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 147 1 really think that probably an adaption of 40.6 2 will probably suit without any problem. 3 MR. FERNSTROM: Well I am fine -- 4 MR. HUBER: One of the things that we 5 wanted -- that Tom and I discussed previously is 6 that if the NGOs would come up with a proposal of 7 scope and levels and what they're thinking, what 8 they want accomplished and how to do that and 9 present it to us then we will have our HI 10 committee review it and then get back with you. 11 But what we think is that we can kind of short 12 circuit this process in a way. And we have a 13 meeting in October and then another meeting in 14 February. We think maybe it is possible to have 15 an agreement basically between HI and the NGOs 16 probably March sometime and then we could come to 17 DOE and you'd only have to take a short amount of 18 time to get this done. 19 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. So I 20 can't speak for the others but my objective has 21 always been simple and that is to come up with 22 some sort of a regulation that would get us PM ECM

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 148 1 motor performance levels and the circulator pumps 2 at some point in the future that would be 3 consistent with the industry's need to redesign 4 and recover costs and so on. 5 MR. HUBER: Yeah, I think that is what 6 we are talking about too. So that is what I think 7 might suit better; you'd take up less analytical 8 time by DOE; take up less meeting time here; and 9 then we would have a general agreement basically 10 before we ever sat down in here and just basically 11 convey it to these guys. And one of the things 12 that we did discuss is that we'd set the standard 13 so that it would move the market into the but not 14 so high as to make it onerous for those guys who 15 are going to have to try to get in there. So that 16 is what we are thinking Gary. And Tom and I 17 discussed this before lunch so -- 18 MR. FERNSTROM: So I think we are in 19 agreement in principle. The question is do we 20 need to reconvene in July. Would that provide any 21 benefit toward this goal? I don't know the 22 answer. I simply raised the question.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 149 1 MR. BROOKMAN: So I am looking at that 2 side of the table there. Tom go ahead. 3 MR. ECKMAN: Yeah, I think if we can 4 characterize the proposal that we would make clean 5 enough so you guys have enough of a framework to 6 talk about so that you know what our end game is. 7 I think Gary has laid it out. We would like to 8 get an end game that has PM ECM motors as the 9 baseline product basically. And whatever that cut 10 off would have to be in terms of pump efficiency, 11 however the metric would be designed is how we 12 would have to finesse it given the current score 13 sheet, metric we've got. That is -- 14 MR. HUBER: It is basically a wire to 15 water test? 16 MR. ECKMAN: Yes. So it is wire to 17 water. 18 MR. HUBER: It is basically not a pump 19 efficiency. 20 MR. ECKMAN: Right. It is a system -- 21 MR. HUBER: It is basically a unit 22 efficiency.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 150 1 MR. ECKMAN: Right. So it's -- 2 MR. HUBER: For lack of a better term. 3 MR. ECKMAN: Yeah so I think that 4 probably in general terms is where we want to go. 5 I don't know whether we need to spend three days 6 talking about it. 7 MR. HUBER: No I don't really think we 8 need to either. I think if you just put it to us 9 in writing and get it clarified so that your 10 entire group agrees what you are going to do, what 11 you want to see happen and get it to us. We will 12 take it up in the October meeting, get back to 13 you. Maybe we've got questions or maybe we've got 14 a counterproposal or something. And we can finish 15 it up in our February meeting. And then arrange 16 some date after that with Lucas -- 17 MR. ECKMAN: Send something to DOE. 18 MR. HUBER: Send something to DOE and 19 they can decide what they want to do. Call a 20 meeting or whatever they want. 21 MR. BROOKMAN: It also -- 22 MR. ECKMAN: We haven't talked about it

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 151 1 as a caucus specifically about what the deal would 2 be but the broad terms are pretty much -- we 3 talked about that before in terms of -- 4 MR. BROOKMAN: As a supplement. I would 5 just -- am recalling that one of the reasons that 6 circulators seemed to be difficult for this 7 working group to take up was because of lack of 8 data among other things. So maybe there could 9 also be that the manufacturers could do a data 10 call like they did through HI and get some 11 additional data because ultimately I think the 12 energy efficiency advocacy is going to want to see 13 some -- 14 MR. HANDZEL: I mean, Doug, Mark Handzel 15 from Xylem, the HI circulator committee has 16 gathered a lot of data. 17 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 18 MR. HANDZEL: Okay. So and I think we 19 actually shared much of that with the DOE and the 20 consultants as part of the vote to exclude it from 21 this rulemaking. 22 MR. BROOKMAN: Ah-ha.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 152 1 MR. HANDZEL: So there is a lot of data 2 that exists. 3 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Good. Good. 4 MR. HUBER: So the only difficulty and 5 it is not a difficulty but this is relatively new 6 technology and it is just being developed by the 7 pump people. The motor people are still working 8 on it. There are horsepower limitations right now 9 and other limitations. But I think if you guys 10 would give us the scope and give us what it is you 11 want to see it look like and then we will have our 12 committee work on it. I think we can get back to 13 you. So you have our confirmation as HI that 14 we'll undertake it and at the latest back to you 15 after October meeting and then the latest after 16 the February meeting hopefully we can get together 17 here or wherever. Maybe we won't have to get 18 together. I don't know. 19 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel. So Doug I 20 think what you were thinking of was that much of 21 what we said about circulators is that many of the 22 manufacturers or almost all of us make our own

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 153 1 motors and they are non NEMA design motors. 2 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. 3 MR. HANDZEL: You know so that was kind 4 of the data -- the data wasn't quite there was 5 because of the non-NEMA design motors. 6 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Good, that is good 7 clarification. And I would simply note as someone 8 who has observed this process a lot that DOE would 9 regardless of what you all negotiate have to 10 fulfill its responsibilities and they are many. So 11 at some point -- at midpoints, at certain key 12 junctures we ought to make sure that Lucas or 13 somebody is aware of what is going on so that he 14 is not surprised; so the Department of Energy is 15 not surprised about what emerges. 16 MR. HUBER: Certainly I think when they 17 send us a proposal they ought to copy DOE. And 18 then when we send back our response we'll copy DOE 19 and they can stay in the loop until we get closer 20 where we get it down and however the DOE wants to 21 handle it after that we certainly are willing to 22 participate.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 154 1 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Louis? 2 MR. STARR: Yeah. Actually I was just 3 going to say I think previously there wasn't a 4 test metric really for the circulators was part of 5 the problem and I think it got developed a little 6 bit more with 40.6 and so maybe now that that can 7 be used -- 8 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. 9 MR. STARR: -- maybe as a basis for it. 10 So that is probably with time it improved. 11 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Meg. 12 MS. WALTNER: Meg Waltner. I was going 13 to point out something along those lines and ask a 14 question to DOE and the consultants whether it 15 would make sense to work on the test method for 16 circulators as part of the main test method 17 rulemaking if there are a lot of similarities in 18 how you would test. 19 MR. HANDZEL: Go ahead Al. 20 MR. BROOKMAN: Al. 21 MR. HUBER: I don't think it would be 22 any different.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 155 1 MR. HANDZEL: So you -- 2 MS. WALTNER: It will be the same test 3 method you are saying? 4 MS. WIDDER: It would be the wire to 5 water test -- 6 MR. HANDZEL: On the pump side. 7 MR HUBER: The wire to water test method 8 it will be very very close. 9 MS. WALTNER: So we wouldn't need to do 10 a separate test method rulemaking for circulators? 11 MR. HUBER: No. 12 MS. WALTNER: That is sort of already -- 13 MS. WIDDER: The only thing that would 14 be -- I mean I wouldn't go that far. I think it 15 makes sense to focus on the test procedure for the 16 scope of pumps that we have been discussing so far 17 right now. I think I agree -- or we agree with 18 the pump manufacturers that minimal, if any, 19 changes would be necessary. But I mean we haven't 20 really done a full analysis. Things that you 21 might want to consider are are the test points 22 appropriate for circulators. I know in the EU

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 156 1 they have many more and they have a different 2 system curve that they apply. So we do want to do 3 a little bit of thinking about it. I think in 4 general the method of test that is described in 5 40.6 is appropriate but there might be some tweaks 6 that might make sense because we are sort of on a 7 fast track for the test procedure that we just 8 talked about to consider that very soon but not 9 immediately today. 10 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas. 11 MR. ADIN: I think Sarah captured 12 basically what I was going to say. We could do it 13 now but there are reasons to wait until later to 14 address the details specific to circulators. 15 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Gary Fernstrom? 16 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay. This is Gary. It 17 sounds like the consensus is we can proceed 18 informally on circulators. We have a pretty good 19 understanding of the common goal and we can have a 20 productive discussion. That leaves pool pumps. I 21 don't think we really even have the pool pump 22 industry at the table here. There is an existing

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 157 1 test procedure and methodology that Energy Star 2 uses. I don't know whether that would want to be 3 adopted by DOE. Certainly alternatives would need 4 to be considered. So I think we need to think 5 about how we might want to proceed with pool pumps 6 because we are not as far along as we are with 7 circulators. 8 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Bob? 9 MR. BARBOUR: Bob Barbour with TACO. I 10 still think we need to keep in mind that there is 11 a difference between a European delta P approach 12 and a domestic delta T approach that has been used 13 with circulators. There are definitely U.S. 14 manufacturers who do supply a delta P 15 approach style of circulator. We are certainly, I 16 can speak for TACO's prospective, that we 17 definitely recognize the need for energy 18 improvement or efficiency improvement when it 19 comes to circulators. And we have some things on 20 the table that will help us better align ourselves 21 I think with the ultimate goal of this group. I 22 don't think we necessarily have enough information

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 158 1 yet as a group as far as operating characteristics 2 or the associated costs that will be applied to 3 the industry to convert to ECM circulators in 4 order to as Tom indicated make it necessarily a 5 baseline. I certainly could see where there would 6 be an opportunity where they may be a higher level 7 of energy efficiency recognized with some ECM 8 style circulators. But I am not so sure that we 9 would necessarily want as a group to just 10 eliminate all other circulators besides ECM. 11 MR. BROOKMAN: What else might we say 12 about pool pumps at this point? I think we have a 13 good solution pathway forward on circulators as 14 they are -- Charlie Cappellino -- Gary, go ahead, 15 Gary Fernstrom. 16 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. I just 17 wanted to respond to Bob. I think there are two 18 parts to the circulator question. One is the 19 circulator pump independent of the type of control 20 that is used whether it is pressure based or 21 temperature based. I think Bob has a good point 22 that the U.S. market is different than the

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 159 1 European market. And certainly there are control 2 system related savings that can be had from these 3 products. 4 We are really interested in developing a 5 standard that goes to the pump and motor kind of 6 irrespective of the control system that is being 7 used and would hope that we can develop a 8 methodology that values the savings emanating from 9 the control system. So we might rate that and use 10 that as a basis of potential rebates or voluntary 11 incentive programs. So the hope would be we can 12 move to PM ECM motors as a standard but leave the 13 benefit of the control systems for voluntary 14 programs having developed a test procedure that 15 properly values the savings associated with them. 16 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Charlie 17 Cappellino? 18 MR. CAPPELLINO: Charlie Cappellino, 19 ITT. So as we transition to discussions around 20 pool pumps and such I know somebody mentioned that 21 we need to get some other parties involved. So I 22 didn't know if you wanted to talk about the timing

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 160 1 of that. 2 MR. BROOKMAN: Well I just think, we're 3 on this subject and I felt compelled to raise it 4 again. It was an important part of the accepted 5 joint proposal. So if there is a way for us to 6 address it at least some pathway then I thought we 7 should try and do it. I didn't know are the pool 8 pump manufacturers, are they members of HI? 9 MR. HUBER: Some are. 10 MR. BROOKMAN: Some are. Al Huber says, 11 yes, some are. Okay. Gary Fernstrom. 12 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. So I've 13 tried to raise this issue through my contacts with 14 the pool industry which is mainly the Association 15 of Pool and Spa Professionals which has as part of 16 its constituency all of the small swimming pool 17 pump manufacturers and I believe the primary 18 swimming pool pump motor manufacturers as well. 19 And frankly I haven't got a lot of traction from 20 them because they don't see anything official 21 happening. So it seems to me that some 22 announcement or initiation from DOE would be a

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 161 1 good way to get the attention and involvement of 2 that industry. And I don't know what DOE can or 3 can't do in that regard. But that is sort of a 4 fundamental difference between pursuing those 5 products and the circulator products. 6 MR. BROOKMAN: And that is a useful bit 7 of information I mean one that I don't think any 8 of us had. Al Huber? I thought you had a -- no, 9 you have no comment here? Tom Eckman? 10 MR. ECKMAN: Yeah. Taking on the pool 11 pump issue I wonder and this is another question 12 for DOE is would a notice of determination of 13 coverage or something like that initiate that 14 because it is not in this scope and it is a pump 15 but it is a different kind of pump than we've talk 16 about here. So would DOE need to do something 17 like that? 18 MR. ADIN: As far as I am aware we would 19 not need to do that. 20 MR. ECKMAN: Okay. 21 MR. ADIN: Because pump is such a broad 22 term in EPCA. I mean it is apparently --

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 162 1 MR. BROOKMAN: And you all have defined 2 it very broadly as well. 3 MR. ADIN: Well regardless of what this 4 group defines the word pump is in EPCA so it is 5 very broad -- 6 MR. ECKMAN: Right. 7 MR. ADIN: -- and it is inclusive of all 8 these other things that -- 9 MR. ECKMAN: So it is in coverage now. 10 It is basically sending out a notice that you 11 might undertake a rulemaking along those lines. 12 MR. ADIN: Right. 13 MR. ECKMAN: So that might get the 14 attention. 15 MR. ADIN: Yeah and there are different 16 ways we could probably think about doing that 17 whether it is this group makes a recommendation, a 18 concrete recommendation to the ASRAC for a follow19 on proceeding and the ASRAC agrees to that DOE can 20 make some kind of announcement about that. 21 MR. ECKMAN: Say something. 22 MR. ADIN: Right. So we can think about

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 163 1 the best way to make that publicly known in a more 2 visible way. But -- 3 MR. ECKMAN: So it may be a separate 4 line item in the term sheet; circulators being one 5 line item and a process; and pool pumps being a 6 different line item and a process for that because 7 it seems to me we have more people in the room on 8 circulators already to talk to than we do on the 9 pool pumps. And so we've already had engagement 10 on that with HI on the circulators and with nobody 11 on pool pumps. 12 MR. BROOKMAN: Let me just note that the 13 summary that Jack is sending you about the 14 agreements does not include anything that we just 15 covered in the last half an hour because we just 16 discussed it. Right. So the purpose of sending 17 this out is so that tomorrow we can look at it and 18 make clarifications and all that other kind of 19 stuff. So we will have to keep our eye on the 20 ball and make it so that -- did someone else -- 21 did I see a hand? No. 22 Do you want to -- I was unclear whether

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 164 1 this group wants to actually approve the term 2 sheet or whether you wish to approve all of the 3 content that goes into the term sheet? Lucas 4 Adin? 5 MR. ADIN: I was just going to point out 6 to the extent I am aware it really doesn't make 7 much material difference which way it is done. I 8 think it is important for the group to look at all 9 the items that are in there and make sure the 10 language is reflective of the intent. 11 MR. BROOKMAN: All of the content. 12 MR. ADIN: That's the operational 13 content of the term sheet. The rest of it is 14 perambulatory language. 15 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 16 MR. ADIN: And explaining what it is for 17 but these are the things that the group is 18 recommending -- 19 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. 20 MR. ADIN: -- to ASRAC, so -- 21 MR. BROOKMAN: I am not splitting hairs 22 here, maybe not, Meg?

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 165 1 MS. WALTNER: Could you clarify the 2 difference between those two options? Are you 3 saying voting on each item in the term sheet 4 versus voting on the whole term sheet? Or what, I 5 didn't understand the difference. 6 MR. ADIN: No I think we were just 7 clarifying whether everyone is comfortable with 8 just looking at the items that we are going to 9 list in there as recommendations as opposed to 10 waiting for us to actually format it into a term 11 sheet and have everyone approve it in that way. I 12 don't think it makes any difference personally. 13 But if everyone wants to see the final term sheet 14 before they are willing to agree to what it says 15 then we can do that but -- 16 MR. BROOKMAN: Wait until you see the 17 summary which I think is an accurate and fair 18 representation of all the work we have done here 19 including strong statements about intent. 20 MS. WALTNER: So are you saying the 21 language we have been sent is the language that is 22 going to be formatted into the final term sheet

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 166 1 but with maybe some preamble or are you saying 2 this language is going to be translated into a 3 term sheet that is based on the intent of this 4 language but the specifics might change? 5 MR. ADIN: I am saying the only 6 difference between what we just sent you and what 7 would be in the term sheet is preamble language. 8 And we would just list it in terms of like 9 recommendation one, recommendation two, structure 10 it a little more but the words would be what this 11 group put forth, yeah. 12 MR. BROOKMAN: Additional comments here? 13 MR. HUBER: From our side I don't think 14 we have a problem if this is what you are going to 15 have except for a preamble I can't see an issue 16 here. 17 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Then that was 18 good. That was useful. 19 I guess we are ready then to return to 20 the test procedure presentation, Sarah Widder? 21 MR. HUBER: Excuse me as a point of 22 clarification we don't vote on the test procedure

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 167 1 but we vote on the metric? We don't vote on the 2 metric either? 3 MS. WIDDER: We could. 4 MR. ADIN: I suppose you could -- yeah 5 you could vote to make a recommendation on the 6 metric since the standards as expressed in terms 7 of the metric. 8 MR. HUBER: But we cannot on the test 9 procedures; is that correct? 10 MR. ADIN: No, we view the test 11 procedures being outside the scope of negotiation. 12 MR. HUBER: DOE -- 13 MS. WIDDER: Correct me if I am wrong. I 14 think the working group can decide to vote on 15 anything they would like but the scope that ASRAC 16 will consider is only the scope that was 17 authorized. I mean it is nuance. 18 MR. ADIN: In a sense that is true. I 19 suppose the -- 20 MS. WIDDER: Right. 21 MR. ADIN: -- this group could vote on 22 anything.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 168 1 MR. HUBER: So we could recommend -- 2 MR. ADIN: Completely unrelated items. 3 (Laughter.) 4 MR. HUBER: We could recommend or we 5 could propose to recommend to ASRAC to adopt the 6 40.6 as part of the test procedure or the basis of 7 the test procedure be 40.6? 8 MR. ADIN: I am not necessarily aware of 9 any specific reason you couldn't do that but -- 10 MR. HUBER: Well -- 11 MR. ADIN: -- I don't know what the 12 limitation would mean. 13 MR. HUBER: I know from our side we 14 would like to. 15 MR. ADIN: Okay. 16 MS. WIDDER: So my understanding and 17 this is just trying to recollect what Betsy said 18 when we had this discussion with the lawyer here 19 and so I don't want to speak out of turn but I 20 think it was that any of those type of 21 recommendations that the working group wanted, 22 voted or just elected to include in the preamble

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 169 1 or as some other part of the term sheet, I don't 2 know if it would go on the term sheet or a 3 separate document, but wanted to be forwarded to 4 ASRAC could be as recommendations but they are not 5 under the same -- this working group is sort of 6 authorized by ASRAC to make recommendations in the 7 form of a term sheet regarding standards. And 8 then there is understanding that ASRAC will take 9 those into consideration with a certain amount of 10 weight that they are recommendations from this 11 group that is formally recognized. 12 The other recommendations about the test 13 procedure are just recommendations. 14 MR. BROOKMAN: Or other matters. 15 MS. WIDDER: What? 16 MR. BROOKMAN: Or other matters. 17 MS. WIDDER: Or other matters -- 18 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. 19 MS. WIDDER: -- that aren't formally 20 part of the ASRAC scope are welcome to be included 21 but aren't part of the formal consideration or 22 authorized scope. That was my understanding.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 170 1 MR. ADIN: I don't personally remember 2 exactly -- 3 MS. WIDDER: Okay. 4 MR. ADIN: -- what Betsy said about that 5 but that sounds consistent with the way I 6 understood it. So yeah I didn't necessarily mean 7 to say you can't vote on things like that. It is 8 just a question of whether the ASRAC is committed 9 to consider those things. 10 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson. HI has 11 put a great deal of work effort into that product 12 as you are aware along with your consultants so we 13 would like to see that voted on by this group and 14 recommend its adoption as the primary test. 15 MR. BROOKMAN: I was wondering if the 16 energy efficiency caucus members are familiar 17 enough with the test that they would wish to act 18 on such a thing at this point. Joanna? 19 MS. MAUER: I am not sure I have a 20 problem with that. I am also not sure it adds a 21 lot of value. I think you can be pretty confident 22 that DOE is going to use 40.6 as a basis. Well I

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 171 1 can't speak for DOE obviously but if they find 2 that there needs to be some kind of tweaks I think 3 they are going to propose those tweaks regardless 4 of whether we vote on something related to 40.6 or 5 not. 6 MR. BROOKMAN: And then there will be 7 the normal comment period -- 8 MS. MAUER: Right. 9 MR. BROOKMAN: -- that follows that 10 notice of proposed rulemaking. 11 MS. MAUER: So I mean I certainly 12 understand why you would like some certainty 13 regarding the test procedure but I think we can be 14 pretty confident that what they will propose will 15 be very similar. 16 MR. HUBER: Since we are confident then 17 I don't see why we can't vote for it. 18 (Laughter.) 19 MR. BROOKMAN: I didn't -- 20 MR. HUBER: We took up a whole meeting 21 reviewing it. You know we brought in our expert. 22 We made the effort to review it. We did all that

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 172 1 work. You know I think we'd like to recommend it 2 to ASRAC as part of the work product of this 3 group. 4 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary Fernstrom? 5 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. So Al, 6 speaking for my constituency, I don't have any 7 difficulty supporting your recommendation for a 8 test procedure. 9 MR. BROOKMAN: I will leave it to the 10 other major caucus to decide whether they've 11 considered it enough, whether they are comfortable 12 with it, all that sort of thing. That is a 13 discussion further down the road; not at this 14 moment it seems. 15 MR. ECKMAN: Yeah I think we could have 16 a reasonably short deliberate discussion about 17 that in caucus and -- 18 MR. BROOKMAN: We can take it up 19 tomorrow even. 20 MR. ECKMAN: Sure. 21 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 22 MR. ECKMAN: We can figure this out.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 173 1 MR. BROOKMAN: And by the way since we 2 are all here before people start heading to 3 anything else I was thinking we would start at 4 8:00 a.m. tomorrow and leave no later than 3:00, 5 maybe even we get done earlier than that but that 6 was the general plan when we set this up. Okay. 7 MR. HUBER: Are we going to review 8 anything tomorrow on the term sheet? Or what is 9 the agenda for tomorrow; do you know? 10 MR. ADIN: We don't necessarily have to. 11 I mean if the group decides it is comfortable with 12 the content of what we sent you. 13 MR. HUBER: Will you have it ready 14 tomorrow? 15 MR. ADIN: We could probably -- well the 16

-- 17 MS. WILLIAMS: We could do it today if - 18 - 19 MR. ADIN: Right. We could format what 20 we send you into a term sheet today. 21 MR. HUBER: Okay. Then we can review it 22 tomorrow --

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 174 1 MR. ADIN: And send it out. 2 MR. HUBER: --and vote on it. 3 MR. ADIN: Sure. 4 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So are we ready to 5 proceed now? I think so. Okay. So, Sarah, thank 6 you. 7 MS. WIDDER: Yes. So, there is not a 8 lot else to talk about regarding the test 9 procedure. I have somes slide we've all seen 10 several times before just reminding us of the 11 architecture or the structure of the metric and 12 particularly the minimally compliant pump; how 13 that is set. So that should just be review and 14 was going to then feed into the review of other 15 items that have been agreed upon by the working 16 group. Unless there are specific questions or 17 other things outside of this general metric 18 construction that the working group wanted to 19 discuss today, that was what I was thinking of 20 doing. 21 MR. HANDZEL: Sarah? 22 MS. WIDDER: Yeah.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 175 1 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel. So a couple 2 of things we did kind of dance around on yesterday 3 were sample size. 4 MS. WIDEER: Uh-huh. 5 MR. HANDZEL: And also just the 6 structure of the database. 7 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. 8 MR. HANDZEL: So just those are two 9 things that I think we still kind of had on our 10 minds. 11 MS. WIDDER: Sure. 12 MR. BROOKMAN: That's on my list. 13 MS. WIDDER: Those are good suggestions. 14 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. 15 MS. WIDDER: So we can definitely bring 16 that up. 17 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. My list is close 18 on the test procedure; get as much clarity as 19 possible. Close on the metric; get any additional 20 input thoughts on the metric. I am still unclear 21 whether it is beneficial to vote on the metric or 22 not. And then also the issue of the data points

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 176 1 that Joanna had raised and Greg had raised earlier 2 today; some discussion on that; seeing where that 3 might go to provide some sort of guidance, 4 recommendation to DOE. I think that would be 5 helpful to DOE. And then there is the summary of 6 the agreements report for review whether we get to 7 that today or tomorrow. And that is my list. 8 So let's proceed. 9 MS. WIDDER: Okay. So this will just be 10 a review of the metric and then as Doug mentioned 11 the working group could decide to vote on it or 12 not. 13 So this is the general nomenclature that 14 we had agreed to previously was that the pump 15 energy rating for a controlled or variable load 16 would describe the weighted average electrical 17 input power to the pump including a motor or drive 18 if present over a specified load profile. And the 19 weights were to be 110% or the load points were to 20 be 110%, 100% and 75% of the best efficiency point 21 flow at nominal speed for uncontrolled pumps for 22 the constant load profile; and then 25, 50, 75,

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 177 1 100% of BEP flow for the controlled or variable 2 load PER. And then the weights were to be equally 3 weighted among those three or four points. And 4 the then pump energy index would be actually the 5 standard that is set. So the pump -- yes. 6 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber. 7 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson. Do you 8 intend for there to be two PEI's; one constant 9 load and one variable load? Or are you trying to 10 combine the two into one? 11 MS. WIDDER: Yeah that was confusing 12 before. We are intending to have two. So let me 13 clarify that right now. 14 MR. HUBER: That is okay. Thank you. 15 MS. WIDDER: Yep. 16 MR. HUBER: Can you change that max to 17 standard? 18 MS. WIDDER: Yep. I am doing that right 19 now also. 20 (Laughter.) 21 MS. WIDDER: Oops. Oops. Yeah that is 22 what you want. There we go. Okay. And then this

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 178 1 would be -- while you all are just watching me 2 edit this but okay. So there are the two; 3 constant load and variable load; different 4 equations for the constant load and variable load 5 applications. And in subsequent presentation of 6 slides or maybe the NOPR or as we discussed the 7 calculators, we will just separate them 8 completely. So I thought that was a good 9 suggestion and we will do that moving forward. 10 So for the constant load case which is 11 the uncontrolled pump we mentioned that the load 12 points of 75, 100 and 110 percent in equal 13 weighting. We discussed earlier that the motor 14 performance would be that of the minimally 15 compliant motor or the motor that is sold with 16 that pump. And we discussed the nuances of that 17 earlier. This is just a reminder of what that 18 equation looks like with the weighted average 19 input power on top and then the bottom here; there 20 is that pump hydraulic output power that we 21 discussed earlier on the pump curve which is used 22 to describe the minimally compliant pump on the

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 179 1 denominator also equally weighted at the same load 2 points. This all should be familiar. The same 3 losses are applied in both cases and I will change 4 the max to standards, PER max. 5 For the variable load case we have four 6 load points: 25, 50, 75, 100. Other than that the 7 equation looks very similar. And then the one 8 thing that is worth noting is that this 9 denominator is an uncontrolled case. And we are 10 all familiar with that. That is why we get such a 11 dramatic decrease in the PEI for a controlled 12 pump. And I am going to change this to will 13 account for drive efficiency because we discussed 14 at length earlier today how we are going to 15 account for drive efficiency with a minimum drive 16 efficiency assumed and an efficiency curve of some 17 sort. And we'll do that. 18 This is how we determine the minimally 19 compliant pump. We essentially determine the pump 20 efficiency based on this equation that is the same 21 equation use in the EU. When we publish the NOPR 22 we will translate this to English units. That

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 180 1 hasn't been super high on my priority list, so I 2 haven't done that yet. But I will in version 12 3 of the calculator. 4 And then we have the efficiency of that 5 minimally compliant pump plugged into the PER 6 standard equally weighted and we would scale the 7 hydraulic power by that pump efficiency and then 8 also translate the pump efficiency that describes 9 the pump -- this equation describes the pump 10 efficiency at BEP and then we scale that pump 11 efficiency or translate that pump efficiency to 12 110% and 75% of BEP flow by multiplying it by 13 these .985 and .95 factors. And that is 14 consistent with what is done in the EU as well to 15 set the MEI. So that is the minimally compliant 16 pump. 17 That is really all that I had to present 18 about the metric. 19 As you all saw by this slide I had some 20 other things about labeling but we can really 21 address that at a later time. 22 If we wanted to talk about --

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 181 1 MR. BROOKMAN: If we address labeling at 2 a later time; when would that be? 3 MS. WIDDER: Whenever in the NOPR. 4 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber? 5 MR. HUBER: Al Huber. Do you have that 6 information available? 7 MS. WIDDER: I mean I can show you the 8 slides that I have now. 9 MR. HUBER: Well that might be helpful 10 for us. 11 MS. WIDDER: Okay. Sure. 12 MR. HUBER: Because we haven't seen it. 13 MS. WIDDER: So this is something that 14 we had discussed at one point in time. I don't 15 know that we have any real specific proposals 16 regarding labeling. This is a summary of some 17 discussions that I had heard at earlier working 18 group meetings. And it is something for the 19 working group to continue to consider. 20 Lucas wants to jump in. 21 MR. ADIN: Well I just want to -- Sarah 22 is right we don't have any specific proposals. We

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 182 1 talked about some different things in this group 2 and it is safe to say that DOE still needs to 3 think about it a little bit. But we are 4 interested in what you all think. And we want to 5 know as much as we can learn about what you think 6 is most valuable to have on a label or what 7 content it should have. 8 MR. BROOKMAN: Mark Handzel. 9 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel from Xylem. I 10 mean Lucas I think obviously we're pretty much 11 rookies at this too. So I mean I guess if you 12 could share with us what you do on other products. 13 You know that is the thing we want to understand 14 what the DOE's expectations are. We certainly all 15 put labels on our products but they've never had 16 any sort of certification on them before or any 17 sort of labeling that was government mandated. So 18

-- 19 MR. ADIN: Right. 20 MR. HANDZEL: -- it is new to us 21 completely. 22 MR. ADIN: Well just to be clear we

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 183 1 don't actually have to require a label on the 2 product. There are only a few products where we 3 do. Motors is one of them. The motor nameplate 4 is required to have the efficiency on it. But you 5 don't necessarily have to require that now. Some 6 consumer products, mostly large appliances or 7 "white goods," have the yellow label that is 8 regulated by the federal trade commission and that 9 is a separate statute of authority. 10 MR. HANDZEL: Maybe I could just tell 11 you what we typically put on our labels is 12 obviously our company's name. 13 MR. ADIN: Uh-huh. 14 MR. HANDZEL: What the product was rated 15 to do. If the customer told us a flow and head we 16 put that on the nameplate. And we put serial 17 number information so they can come back and trace 18 it back to us for help to identify parts. 19 MR. ADIN: Right. 20 MR. HANDZEL: So it is all really just 21 identifying us as the manufacturer. 22 MR. BROOKMAN: Does the serial number

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 184 1 have the model number embedded? 2 MR. HANDZEL: Well some of us do, some 3 of us it doesn't. It is not embedded in my number 4 but I have the information on the nameplate as 5 well. 6 MR. ADIN: So with respect to energy 7 efficiency information I mean understand that 8 based upon the certification system that DOE uses 9 now assuming we do the same thing for pumps and I 10 can't think of any reason why we would do it 11 differently, all that information would be in 12 DOE's database. So someone could look up that 13 model based on what is on the nameplate and figure 14 out what its rating is. So -- 15 MR. HUBER: So you are not going to 16 require us to put that on the label? 17 MR. ADIN: Not by default, no. 18 MR. HUBER: That is not what you think? 19 MR. ADIN: I mean if this group decided 20 absolutely it has to be on the nameplate or the 21 label then we could consider that but -- 22 MR. HANDZEL: So like for example

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 185 1 between Al and I he puts efficiency on his 2 nameplate; I don't. So I mean we could do it but 3 I mean again we are rating the product not each 4 individual version that we sell so I mean again we 5 need to make sure -- 6 MR. ADIN: Well let me clarify one point 7 about that. To the extent energy efficiency or 8 energy consumption information is put on the label 9 or nameplate once we've established a test method 10 it has to be consistent with what comes out of 11 that required DOE test method. So that is a 12 statutory requirement. We don't really have a 13 choice about that. I mean you at least have to 14 have an energy rating that is consistent with what 15 the test procedure shows. 16 MR. HUBER: So what you are telling us 17 is if we have been putting efficiency on there 18 then we either have got to stop doing it or we've 19 got to put the PEI -- 20 MR. HANDZEL: You have to put -- 21 MR. ADIN: You at least have to have the 22 PEI on there. And if you have other measures of

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 186 1 energy efficiency or use they have to -- 2 MR. HUBER: Well I am glad we started 3 through this because we didn't understand that and 4 I think probably we will need to caucus sometime 5 and talk about it. Maybe we can bring it back 6 tomorrow as to whether we think it ought to or 7 ought not to be. 8 MR. ADIN: Uh-huh. Okay. 9 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary Fernstrom? 10 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. Well if 11 we want to have any sort of voluntary program to 12 reward products that exceed the minimum 13 requirements we need to have the energy efficiency 14 marked in a recognizable and permanent way on the 15 product. So I'd just like to say is as you think 16 about whether you want to do this or not it is 17 important to us to have that information 18 permanently marked on the product. 19 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 20 MS. WIDDER: And just to follow up on 21 Gary's thing. I think that is a really important 22 point Gary. One of the things that is considered

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 187 1 and actually has been a reason that labeling has 2 not been pursued for other commercial equipment is 3 that there is obviously burden associated with 4 labeling products, the material cost of the label 5 and all these things. But we have to weigh that 6 against the benefit and how consumers typically 7 acquire energy use or efficiency information about 8 that product. So like for commercial equipment -- 9 other commercial equipment there has been 10 determinations that typically specifiers look in 11 the catalogue or the product literature and they 12 don't really select the unit off the shelf. And 13 so permanently identifying the efficiency 14 information on the unit is less valuable in those 15 cases. And so that is just something that we 16 consider. 17 MR. ECKMAN: Except that like many 18 people that hand out money we do measurement 19 verification that -- 20 MS. WIDDER: Uh-huh. 21 MR. ECKMAN: -- what we bought is 22 actually what was delivered. So --

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 188 1 MS. WIDDER: Right. 2 MR. ECKMAN: -- the M&V activity relies 3 on that label -- 4 MS. WIDDER: Uh-huh. 5 MR. ECKMAN -- or some crosswalk between 6 what is on the label and a certified dataset that 7 says that was indeed the product -- 8 MS. WIDDER: Uh-huh. 9 MR. ECKMAN: -- and we paid for an 10 efficient product that was actually installed. 11 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. 12 MR. ECKMAN: Because there are many 13 times when we have paid for things that were 14 installed and that isn't good. 15 MS. WIDDER: Uh-huh. 16 MR. BROOKMAN: Rob Boteler? 17 MR. BOTELER: Rob Boteler. I would 18 agree with you that a lot of products, motors 19 included, get purchased and installed and nobody 20 ever looks at it. But at the same time there is a 21 verification step there that when it is necessary 22 we have the nominal efficiency on the nameplate

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 189 1 and it does help us with our utility programs. 2 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. And so that is 3 definitely a benefit that is also considered not 4 only the specification but the verification. 5 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis. 6 MR. STARR: And so the other thing about 7 it is the PEI can actually -- some of these things 8 are actually more proscriptive requirements so you 9 could have a PEI such that you really have to have 10 a VFD in order to get a rebate and so just by 11 having the PEI with a number on there it indicates 12 that it is a package and that it is all together 13 and it is all in there and so you can easily check 14 to see that it is there. So the specification 15 will say package equipment with a PEI less than 16 45. And so you just look and see that it is on 17 there when you are out either the engineer or the 18 person doing the rebate program. 19 MS. WIDDER: Uh-huh. 20 MR. STARR: So I mean I think maybe the 21 label just could be something with the PEI with 22 the number on there and it would be nice that if

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 190 1 it had some way of going back to the DOE database 2 that you could get more information which the 3 model number should do that I would think. 4 MS. WIDDER: Right. 5 MR. BROOKMAN: Mark Handzel. 6 MR. HANDZEL: I think good discussion. 7 I agree with Al, we'd like to talk about it 8 further. 9 MS. WIDDER: Uh-huh. 10 MR. HANDZEL: Yes because I think we 11 have to -- obviously we are coming up with a PEI 12 by model number, we may be selling pumps with 13 trimmed impellers so it has to be framed up as 14 whether it is a nominal PEI or what it is because 15 it may not be exactly what the impeller trim 16 reflects as a PEI or I mean these are things we 17 all just have to think through. 18 MS. WIDDER: Right. So with regard to 19 the impeller trim thing it would be nominal in 20 that case because we are certifying equipment at 21 full impeller only. 22 MR. HANDZEL: Exactly. So yes, so we

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 191 1 just need to come up with the terminology and 2 agree that that is the way we are going to phrase 3 it. 4 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 5 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. 6 MR. BROOKMAN: How many slides do you 7 have on labeling? 8 MR. STARR: One last question. 9 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. 10 MR. STARR: The more I think about it it 11 actually needs to be done by the serial number 12 because the model number is not indicative of how 13 it is sold. In other words you could have a pump 14 that has a certain model number but if you sold it 15 with a motor too it would still have the same 16 model number but you are given pump model XYZ, it 17 doesn't change if you sell it with a motor 18 necessarily. So the serial number would be more 19 indicative of that particular motor and how it was 20 sold. 21 MR. BROOKMAN: Bob Barbour? 22 MR. BARBOUR: Bob Barbour with TACO.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 192 1 Many manufacturers don't even supply a serial 2 number on their pumps. We don't. 3 MR. HUBER: We do. 4 MR. HANDZEL: We don't supply it on 5 circulators. But we supply it on everything else. 6 MR. BARBOUR: We don't though. 7 MR. HANDZEL: Not even on your bigger 8 pumps? 9 MR. BARBOUR: No. 10 MR. HANDZEL: Well, guess you are going 11 to have to change, Bob. 12 (Laughter.) 13 MR. HUBER: Now you see why we've got to 14 caucus. 15 MS. WIDDER: Right. 16 MR. BROOKMAN: So how many slides do we 17 have on labeling? 18 MS. WIDDER: Very few other especially 19 substantive slides. The other slides review a 20 little bit what we wanted to accomplish with the 21 metric. I'll just go through them quickly. 22 MR. BROOKMAN: Because we've already

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 193 1 demonstrated that the brief review is useful. So 2 let's go through them briefly. 3 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. And I think I at 4 least definitely recognize that this is something 5 we won't reach consensus on today. And we will 6 still need feedback on and so I am glad we brought 7 it up. I am glad it is something worth 8 considering. But it doesn't need to go in the 9 term sheet necessarily; the labeling provisions. 10 Although we could talk more about it tomorrow or 11 whenever. 12 MR. HANDZEL: And Sarah I am sorry to 13 interrupt, Mark Handzel, but I mean our preference 14 is that we would like these things in the term 15 sheet just because we want to make it vividly 16 clear to DOE that this is what we can easily -- 17 MS. WIDDER: Okay. 18 MR. HANDZEL: -- comply with. 19 MS. WIDDER: Okay. 20 MR. HANDZEL: And -- 21 MR. HUBER: And it is what we want. 22 MR. HANDZEL: Yeah it is what we want

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 194 1 because obviously changes that get done over the 2 next six months after we stop working are going to 3 be of key concern to us because they are going to 4 differ -- yeah. 5 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. 6 MR. HUBER: We want it in there. 7 MS. WIDDER: Okay. So let's put on the 8 agenda for tomorrow revisiting labeling. 9 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 10 MS. WIDDER: Okay. 11 MR. HUBER: I think we've got -- excuse 12 me, Al Huber, Patterson. We are going to revisit 13 tomorrow the test standard. We are going to 14 revisit tomorrow the metric. I mean it is part of 15 what we are recommending also. 16 MS. WIDDER: Uh-huh. 17 MR. HUBER: And vote on it unless 18 somebody wants to do it today. And labeling. 19 MS. WIDDER: Uh-huh. 20 MR. HUBER: Is there anything else? 21 MR. BROOKMAN: There is the data point 22 discussion that Joanna raised; Greg was talking

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 195 1 about earlier this morning. 2 MS. WIDDER: Oh, certification reports, 3 what is in the certification -- 4 MR. HUBER: -- a product data sheet that 5 you wanted. 6 MS. WIDDER: -- database. 7 MR. BROOKMAN: Definition of what? 8 UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Definition -- 9 MR. ECKMAN: That is really what is 10 going in the database though, that is the question 11 what is the database going to look like. 12 MS. WIDDER: Right. 13 MR. ECKMAN: Date point as well. 14 MR. HUBER: Yeah, that is something 15 we've got to -- 16 MS. WIDDER: What does the data 17 describe? 18 MR. HUBER: And we -- 19 MR. BROOKMAN: So you have more slides? 20 MS. WIDDER: Yeah, I have a few more 21 slides on the labeling things. I don't have a lot 22 of slides on the sort of certification report

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 196 1 elements. But we could make slides about that. I 2 could take notes if we want to discuss that next. 3 With regards to labeling the rest of the 4 slides as I mentioned weren't really that 5 substantive so just to talk through this slide. 6 This was a summary of what I heard us discuss a 7 few meetings ago which was that maybe it would be 8 desirable to have the PEI constant load and 9 variable load on nominal on each pump regardless 10 of the configuration in which it is sold. So that 11 consumers or utility programs could observe what 12 the drive -- Al you are giving me funny faces. 13 This is not a proposal. This is just a summary of 14 the discussion I heard. So any changes are 15 welcomed. And the standard in this case is 16 probably less negotiable. This would -- a pump 17 that was sold with a motor and control would -- 18 the standard it would use would be the variable 19 load but what is in the label or what is 20 meaningful in terms of putting on a label; the 21 last time we discussed it, it sounded like putting 22 both on a pump to reflect if you were to give this

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 197 1 pump to a distributor and they were to put a 2 control on later it would reflect at least the 3 minimum of what that control system -- what type 4 of performance you could expect from the 5 controlled system. That was the conversation I 6 heard. So that is just what is captured here. 7 MR. BROOKMAN: I heard that conversation 8 also. 9 MS. WIDDER: Okay. Great. I am not 10 making it up. 11 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber. 12 MR. HUBER: One of the things that we 13 are concerned about is we don't know how it is 14 going to be handled after it leaves us. 15 MS. WIDDER: Right. 16 MR. HUBER: Okay. So we -- it is our 17 preference right now unless I get guidance from 18 anybody else, I'm looking at -- that when we ship 19 a bare pump or we ship a pump with a motor we put 20 on that -- if we are required to put on the label 21

-- 22 MS. WIDDER: Uh-huh.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 198 1 MR. HUBER: -- which we haven't 2 determined yet. 3 MS. WIDDER: Nope. 4 MR. HUBER: We would only want to put on 5 PEI CL. 6 MS. WIDDER: Okay. 7 MR. HANDZEL: Nominal PEI 8 MR. HUBER: If we -- the nominal PEI CL 9 and if we are going to ship it with a control we 10 want to put on the PEI VL. I guess it would be 11 nominal also. 12 MS. WIDDER: Uh-huh. Yep. Same as 13 standard. Okay. 14 MR. HUBER: Yeah because I think it -- 15 we don't know how it is going to be utilized after 16 it leaves us. 17 MS. WIDDER: Uh-huh. 18 MR. HUBER: I mean it is not that we 19 disagree and try to get people to use control 20 systems but we have to be concerned. We put it 21 on there and somebody puts another drive on there 22 that may not be what we tested and it may operate

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 199 1 differently and somebody is going to come back to 2 us yeah, but you said this is what it was. 3 MS. WIDDER: Uh-huh. 4 MR. HUBER: In other words if I get a 5 motor and a control that is not compatible for 6 some reason or it doesn't perform the same as 7 somebody else's control that I tested then I've 8 got an issue. Okay. We don't want to open 9 ourselves up for an issue here. Does that make 10 sense? 11 MS. WIDDER: Okay. I hear that and I'm 12 recoding it. 13 Okay. So -- 14 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's finish the slides 15 and then at that point we will be ready for our 16 break and you can put your heads together briefly 17 at that point. 18 Keep going. 19 MS. WIDDER: Okay. So the other slides 20 that I had related to label were just when I was 21 thinking about what we might want to put on the 22 label. It seemed relevant to me to recall what we

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 200 1 wanted to achieve with the metric. So this is a 2 slide that we've seen before. There were five 3 elements that we determined as a group that might 4 be beneficial characteristics to have as a metric 5 that it is objectively measureable; and represents 6 the performance of the equipment; that it 7 differentiates performance among pump models and 8 configuration;, communicates information about the 9 pump performance to the consumer, although maybe 10 not all the information; and it can compared the 11 efficiency of a given pump model to a minimum 12 standard. So the reason I thought that was 13 important is particularly number four it seems 14 like might be best accomplished by the label as 15 opposed to the standard metric as we've described 16 it. 17 So I tried to capture that in a little 18 table here. So there are the five metric goals on 19 the left. So we want both the standard and the 20 label to be objectively measureable obviously. And 21 then I just describe some of the characteristics 22 of the standard and the label with regard to the

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 201 1 goals of the metric. I think the key one this is 2 what I was trying to describe earlier that I heard 3 the conversation around but certainly there is 4 reason as the pump manufacturers have said you 5 don't have control over essentially what drive it 6 is paired with and so perhaps you just want to 7 have the label representative of the standard 8 performance. So that is really all the slides I 9 have here. 10 I had a couple of potential impact 11 slides that I just really made up because I wanted 12 to get this group thinking about how this label 13 would impact the market and what would be 14 important information to communicate in what 15 format. And if a physical label is the best 16 format or if product literature is more 17 appropriate. 18 So like I said at the beginning I don't 19 think that these are to be interpreted as 20 proposals. These are just sort of opportunities 21 to start discussing. Please do not think of these 22 as set in stone.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 202 1 Yes. Doug. Okay. Great. 2 So that is really all I had on metric. 3 The next thing that we could do Doug 4 unless you have an idea is we could either review 5 the items on the term sheet, we could review 6 metric and vote on it, or we could discuss the 7 certification database. I think those were all on 8 the list. Or we could take a break first. 9 MR. BROOKMAN: I think we should take a 10 break first. We are just about due for a break. 11 But I thought I heard from one member of the 12 manufacturers' caucus that you would like to take 13 a vote on the metric. I thought I -- did I hear 14 that? I think I did. 15 MR. HANDZEL: We want to make a 16 recommendation in the term sheet that it be -- 17 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. Right. 18 So and I didn't know whether -- I mean 19 we've spent a lot of time on the metric and it 20 seems like we've arrived at something that is as I 21 review folks around the room they seem pretty 22 comfortable with what is there. So let's take a

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 203 1 break now. Let's take a 15 minute break. It is 2 now -- it is only quarter after so that means we 3 will return at 2:30 and we'll consider the metric 4 and decide what to do with it. 5 (WHEREUPON, a recess was taken.) 6 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Here we go. 7 Before I forget -- oh, I'll tell you later. 8 So we had a very productive discussion 9 before we went to break, and I know that at least 10 one of the caucuses put their heads together. I 11 hope that was productive as well. 12 I think where we left it was that we 13 were going to return to the test method that, I 14 heard prior to leaving for the break, that at 15 least one caucus really wanted to make sure that 16 some of the test method stuff, particularly 40.6, 17 that that came out as a recommendation from the 18 Working Group. 19 Sarah, during the break, has diligently 20 made small edits to a few of the slides. And so 21 that's where we're going to start, to review that 22 as content that may be the basis for a vote by the

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 204 1 Working Group. 2 And I don't know whether your caucus 3 have had a chance to -- okay, the Energy 4 Efficiency Advocates' caucus has also had a chance 5 to talk about this. 6 So let's proceed. Sarah. 7 MS. WIDDER: Okay. So the slide that I 8 made -- well, I made two, but this is the first 9 one. And it is basically just a summary of what I 10 thought that I heard we may be -- or the group may 11 be wishing to make recommendations about at this 12 point, or at least feel comfortable making 13 recommendations about at this point. 14 The first thing is that the bare pump 15 test procedure should be based on HI 40.6. Or 16 maybe to revise that, actually now that I'm saying 17 it out loud, is that the pump -- just pump test 18 procedure should be based on HI 40.6. 19 And then the other two bullets here deal 20 with the metric. The pump energy rating -- this 21 is basically just cut and paste from the metric 22 slide that we saw earlier -- pump energy rating is

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 205 1 equally weighted average electrical input power to 2 pump measured or calculated at the driver input or 3 when present controls input over a specified load 4 profile. There's the equation. We've described 5 what each of those terms mean. 6 And then the pump energy index, PEI CL 7 and VL for uncontrolled and controlled loads 8 respectively would be the PER CL and VL for a 9 given pump model over the PER CL for a minimally 10 compliant pump PER standard. Yeah. 11 MR. HUBER: We would like to change the 12 word "base" to "in accordance with." 13 MR. BROOKMAN: It strikes me that that's 14 a kind of a discrete element, and that, if we're 15 going to vote, we should vote on that. 16 MS. WIDDER: Just -- 17 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Just on that 18 wording change? 19 MR. BROOKMAN: No, on the -- on what is 20 now -- 21 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: The bullet. 22 MR. BROOKMAN: On the bullet.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 206 1 (Off the record) 2 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: You want to vote 3 on each bullet point? 4 MR. BROOKMAN: I think that -- yes, 5 because I'm not sure -- I -- 6 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: I don't care. 7 MS. WIDDER: We can -- all as a whole 8 40.6 in metric separately. 9 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's do them separately. 10 MS. WIDDER: Okay. 11 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. Joanna. 12 MS. MAUER: I personally would be more 13 comfortable voting on the original language that 14 Sarah had on the screen, but. 15 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas Adin. 16 MR. ADIN: I don't know that we have 17 strong views on it. But I mean, understand -- 18 like I think it was pointed out earlier, this will 19 still need to go through a separate rule making 20 process for the test procedure. 21 So it's possible there are things that 22 DOE could propose that they're not necessarily

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 207 1 inconsistent with HI 40.6, might be in addition to 2 or something of that nature, so. 3 MR. HUBER: We don't disagree with that. 4 MR. ADIN: Okay. 5 MR. HUBER: We understand you may do 6 that, but this is what we would like to recommend 7 to the -- if we're going to make our 8 recommendations, we're recommending that it be in 9 accordance with 40.6. I mean, that's what -- 10 that's what we spent all this time working on. So 11

-- 12 MR. ADIN: Okay. 13 MR. HUBER: -- I don't see any problem 14 with that. We're making a recommendation. We 15 realize you can change it. But if you change it, 16 then we have -- we have the opportunity to object 17 to that. 18 MR. ADIN: That's true. It will go 19 through the rule making process. There will be a 20 public comment period. 21 MR. HUBER: We understand that, too. 22 MR. ADIN: Right.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 208 1 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: That's kind of 2 what we're aligning for. 3 MR. HUBER: They have -- they have the 4 same -- same privilege. 5 MR. BROOKMAN: I wonder about that -- 6 this may be even, since the test procedure is not 7 a part of this delegated scope for this Working 8 Group, this is a recommendation -- I wonder if the 9 ground rules would apply, the ground rules we set 10 for ourselves, if they would apply in the case of 11 a recommendation which is out of scope. 12 MR. HUBER: That's the way we decided to 13 operate. So I assume that they would also apply. 14 I mean, I know I'm not, you know. 15 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. Okay. I'm -- 16 regardless, yeah. Tom Eckman. 17 MR. ECKMAN: Yeah. Just I think the 18 issue is -- you know, we agree you are being 19 substantial -- substantially consistent with 40.6. 20 I don't think there's any heartburn on our side 21 about what we're really intending there. 22 It's a question of whether there's -- if

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 209 1 they find something, they have to change later, 2 that that is a tweak, whatever that is, but 3 doesn't -- I mean, we think substantially is 4 compliant with 40.6, we're in agreement with that. 5 MR. HUBER: That's why we would like to 6 put "in accordance with." 7 MR. ECKMAN: "In accordance with," yeah. 8 MR. HUBER: Because I think -- I mean, 9 that's what we understand, that's what we would 10 like to see, and -- 11 (Off the record) 12 MR. HUBER: -- since they have the right 13 to do whatever they please. 14 MR. ECKMAN: Right, whatever doesn't 15 matter. 16 MR. HUBER: All we're doing is making a 17 recommendation anyway. So it's our 18 recommendation, at least from -- from this caucus, 19 is that it be in accordance with 40.6. 20 MR. BROOKMAN: Meg Waltner. No. 21 Okay. Lucas, you want to. 22 MR. ADIN: I was just going to say

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 210 1 because, you know, like we've said, this is going 2 to go through the rule making process. I don't 3 think this language is a problem for our purposes. 4 (Off the record) 5 MR. ADIN: To the extent I'm aware. 6 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis Starr. 7 MR. STARR: I guess maybe, Sarah, is 8 pretty much everything up there in accordance with 9 40.6? 10 MS. WIDDER: Everything up there -- 11 MR. STARR: Well -- 12 (Off the record) 13 MR. STARR: -- not only the first 14 bullet, but then it basically implies everything 15 else. Right? 16 MS. WIDDER: Well, so 40.6 is only a 17 pump method of test. It describes how the pump is 18 put on a stand, what the measurement equipment is, 19 what the load points are, how BEP is determined, 20 and how pump shaft input power and efficiency are 21 determined. 22 And that's really the end of it. That's

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 211 1 the extent of it. 2 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: You feel like 3 it's in accordance with 40.6, what we just 4 covered? 5 MS. WIDDER: Yes. 6 MR. ECKMAN: Well, for example, and Gary 7 raised the issue of, you know, testing all three 8 phases. 9 MS. WIDDER: And that's not in 40.6. So 10 that would be in addition to. 11 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: The pump test. 12 MR. ECKMAN: Yeah. 13 MS. WIDDER: Right. Which is why I had 14 bare pump test -- 15 MR. ECKMAN: Okay. 16 MS. WIDDER: -- initially because it 17 really is just a test for a bare pump. And then 18 anything else would be in addition to that. 19 MR. BROOKMAN: It seems like -- I'm 20 looking over here this side of the room -- that 21 most folks seem to be comfortable with this 22 current wording.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 212 1 MS. WIDDER: How about, what if we add 2 to clear up, "Pump test procedures should be in 3 accordance with HI 40.6 for determining bare pump 4 performance." Do we feel comfortable with that? 5 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: That's fine. 6 MS. WIDDER: Okay. Because then it's 7 more clear that the whole test procedure is not in 8 accordance with something that has a limited 9 scope. 10 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. Okay. 11 MS. WIDDER: Okay. 12 MR. BROOKMAN: You okay. Yeah. 13 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Yeah. 14 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Then I'm going to 15 ask for a vote of the committee. How many do we 16 have -- 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 17 14 -- 14 members. 18 Okay. So you see the proposal there, 19 the proposed recommendation from the Working Group 20 to ASRAC up there, and it reads -- Sarah just read 21 it -- "Pump test procedures should be in 22 accordance with HI 40.6 for determining the bare

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 213 1 pump performance." This would go, if we approve 2 it, into the term sheet. 3 All those in favor of accepting this as 4 a recommendation to ASRAC, please signify by 5 raising your hands. As I cast my eyes around the 6 room, every single -- one person has not voted 7 "yes." So that is 13 "yes" votes and one -- 8 MS. MAUER: I'd like to abstain. 9 MR. BROOKMAN: And one "abstention." 10 Thank you very much. That's another 11 consensus of the Working Group. 12 (Off the record) 13 MS. WIDDER: Okay. The next thing that 14 we want to vote on -- 15 (Off the record) 16 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve -- Steve Rosenstock 17 sent a message again to me this morning saying he 18 couldn't make it, and he wanted his vote to be 19 counted as an "abstention." 20 MS. WIDDER: So that's two 21 "abstentions." 22 MR. BROOKMAN: Two.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 214 1 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: So we don't have 2 any members on the webinar? 3 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, no one on the 4 webinar. Yeah. 5 MS. WIDDER: Okay. 6 MR. BROOKMAN: So that's two 7 "abstentions." 8 MS. WIDDER: Okay. So the next elements 9 that I captured that we wanted to make a 10 recommendation about were a summary of the metric 11 nomenclature and general architecture. 12 So the -- the PER that describes the 13 pump performance for a -- for a constant load or 14 variable load, constant load for the uncontrolled 15 case and variable load for the controlled case. 16 The PER would be the equally weighted 17 average input power to the pump measured or 18 calculated. I already read this, so I'm not going 19 to re-read it. 20 And I also think that -- and we could 21 include this actually on this slide if desired -- 22 but we could capture also in the term sheet that

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 215 1 this in general captures the description of the 2 metric, but probably we also mean this to 3 incorporate the previous slides which have the 4 full equations as well as how the PER standard is 5 determined. Of course, that's included in this 6 summary here. 7 And then the pump energy index would be 8 the PER constant load or variable load for a 9 uncontrolled or controlled pump respectively over 10 the PER standard which is the PER constant load 11 for a minimally compliant pump serving the same 12 hydraulic load. 13 MR. ECKMAN: Do you want to add that? 14 MS. WIDDER: Sure. 15 MR. ECKMAN: Doing the same (inaudible) 16 so we're clear. 17 MR. BROOKMAN: I'd like to make a small 18 -- small correction to what I said earlier because 19 Lucas just asked me. And in fact, that it would 20 be 13 "yes" votes, two "abstentions," and one 21 "absent." That would account for the entire 22 committee. So sorry for the correction.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 216 1 Yes, please. 2 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. 3 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Before you vote, 4 I got a question. 5 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. 6 MR. ALASCIO: So it's Jeff Alascio from 7 ABB. 8 What if you can't get the data for 25, 9 50, 75, and 100 at BEP for your controls? 10 MS. WIDDER: There shouldn't be any data 11 requirements for determining the PEI variable load 12 for the PER variable load in the calculation -- 13 actually, in general. There shouldn't be any data 14 requirements. 15 So for the calculation method, you would 16 apply 40.6 to determine the BEP pump input power, 17 shaft input power, and apply the controlled motor 18 losses which, you know, we're going to work on 19 exactly what those coefficients are, but the motor 20 efficiency and the controlled motor losses, and 21 then apply the system curve to determine how that 22 power is reduced at reduced speed.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 217 1 And then also we'll incorporate the 2 drive efficiency, an assumed drive efficiency and 3 a default efficiency curve for that controlled 4 performance. 5 So there'll just be one sort of benefit 6 that's assigned to all controls in the 7 calculation. All controlled pumps in the 8 calculation case. And then there's the wire to 9 water test as the alternative option at the same 10 load points where it's measured. 11 And so you don't really need any data 12 except for you need measurement equipment in that 13 case. 14 MR. ALASCIO: So how do you -- how do 15 you get your curve? 16 MR. BROOKMAN: Jeff asked: How do you 17 get your curve? 18 MS. WIDDER: The drive efficiency curve? 19 MR. ALASCIO: Correct. 20 MS. WIDDER: Well, that's something that 21 we're still going to have to work on. We're going 22 to reach out to drive manufacturers and NEMA and

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 218 1 as many individuals that have data as we can find 2 to try to describe a curve that's as descriptive 3 of the worst performing drives that are available 4 so that we can ensure that it's conservative as 5 we've discussed and potentially even apply some 6 sort of bias or factor that would provide us an 7 additional level of safety that -- that it's a 8 conservative estimate. 9 However, I will -- I will point out that 10 we're not really necessarily voting on that in 11 this proposal. This proposal is just describing 12 that we would like to describe the performance of 13 a controlled pump as the input power to the drive 14 equally weighted at 25, 50, 75, and 100 percent of 15 BEP flow over the standard. 16 We're not voting today or making 17 recommendations, at least right here, in terms of 18 how that input power to the drive is determined. 19 Although, we did discuss that previously, we're 20 not voting on it right now. 21 MR. BROOKMAN: Doug Potts. 22 MR. POTTS: Doug Potts. Yeah, Sarah, I

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 219 1 just have a question. For clarification on the 2 last paragraph, minimally compliant pump -- 3 MR. BROOKMAN: I'm sorry. 4 MR. POTTS: -- minimally compliant pump 5 PER standard. That's basically a pump that would 6 meet the PER 25. Is that kind of the same thing, 7 since that's what we decide on, is that -- is that 8 what we're saying? 9 MS. WIDDER: Did you want to answer? 10 MR. ADIN: Right. It's the PER 11 calculated for the minimally compliant pump based 12 on pump efficiency with the minimally compliant -- 13 minimally DOE compliant motor for a pump with a 14 motor. 15 MS. WIDDER: And so it would meet the 16 PER 25. 17 MR. ADIN: Right. 18 MR. POTTS: Yeah. All right. 19 MS. WIDDER: Just barely. 20 MR. POTTS: So like if we had set it at 21 PER 40, then PER standard would be a pump that 22 meets PER 40, for example.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 220 1 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. 2 MR. POTTS: Yeah, okay. Thanks. 3 MR. BROOKMAN: All right. Louis, you 4 had a question? No. No. Okay. 5 Yes, Charlie Cappelino. 6 MR. CAPPELINO: Charlie Cappelino, ITT. 7 Maybe you said this earlier, Sarah, but up here 8 where you have "PER CL slash VL." 9 MS. WIDDER: Do you want to make those 10 separate? 11 MR. CAPPELINO: Yeah, I know that raised 12 a question in the last meeting. People were 13 confused over the CL slash VL. 14 MS. WIDDER: Yeah, and I separated it 15 below. So I'll separate it above here. 16 MR. CAPPELINO: Just for clarification - 17 - 18 MS. WIDDER: Yep. 19 MR. CAPPELINO: -- down the road. 20 MS. WIDDER: I thought about that. I 21 didn't separate it above because actually the 22 equation's identical but it does provide clarity

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 221 1 that they're separate quantities and not a ratio 2 or anything. Yeah. 3 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis Starr. 4 MR. STARR: Yeah, so actually, I did 5 have a question. It's about kind of a follow-up 6 to the drive question he had. 7 So the pump guys do have software that 8 they use themselves to estimate those losses. And 9 so I got the impression earlier they were going to 10 go back and chitchat amongst themselves and kind 11 of come back with some numbers for Sarah. Is that 12 kind of where -- 13 MS. WIDDER: To describe the drive 14 efficiency curves? 15 MR. STARR: Well, that and motors 16 together I think. 17 (Off the record) 18 MR. HANDZEL: So this is Mark Handzel 19 from Xylem. 20 So we use partial load data on the motor 21 efficiency not on the drive. The drive, we use 22 the nominal full load efficiency because that's

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 222 1 all that's really available. Okay. 2 MS. WIDDER: Yeah, partial load -- 3 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: And again -- 4 MS. WIDDER: -- drive efficiency data is 5 difficult. 6 MR. HANDZEL: Well, I was just going to 7 say -- and again, it's a rough estimated cost on 8 what you're going to save on electricity. Cost is 9 all we're trying to provide. So it's a general 10 estimate. It's not, you know -- 11 MR. STARR: No point (inaudible). 12 MR. HANDZEL: Right. Right. It's not, 13 you know, anything that's a specific rating for a 14 product. It's just a way to give a customer an 15 estimate if they want one. 16 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg Case. 17 MR. CASE: Greg Case, Hydraulic 18 Institute. And, Louis, we did provide some data 19 to Sarah. There is not a lot out there. I've 20 gotten one manufacturer to provide me data. 21 I've gotten several studies from 22 different universities basically that have done

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 223 1 this work, but there does not seem to -- and 2 everything I provided, I just now confirmed with 3 Sarah, it's for the shape of the curve. It 4 definitely doesn't have specific targeted data 5 points, so. 6 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Al Huber. 7 MR. HUBER: I believe, if I'm not 8 mistaken, there is some information on the DOE 9 website. 10 MR. CASE: Right. I talked to Sarah 11 about that earlier. She -- 12 MR. HUBER: And it does describe some 13 efficiencies of partial load. So -- 14 MS. WIDDER: It does. And I think that 15

-- 16 MR. HUBER: -- they do have information. 17 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. I think we have as 18 much as we're going to try and find everything we 19 can. 20 MR. BROOKMAN: I lost track. Have you - 21 - 22 MS. WIDDER: So I think let's -- I think

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 224 1 that's an all-important discussion regarding how 2 we come up with the input power to the drive in 3 the case of a controlled system. 4 But let's return to the general desire 5 to describe the energy use of controlled and 6 uncontrolled pumps using the PER and PEI 7 nomenclature and equations that were described on 8 this slide and in previous slides. 9 And I think -- 10 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah, you think -- 11 MS. WIDDER: -- I think we're ready -- 12 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. 13 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. 14 MR. BROOKMAN: -- to vote on the second 15 bullet. 16 MS. WIDDER: Oh, I think we can do them 17 both together. 18 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Because they -- 19 MS. WIDDER: PER and PEI. 20 MR. BROOKMAN: -- they're linked. 21 MS. WIDDER: They go together. 22 MR. BROOKMAN: They're linked, yeah.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 225 1 Are we ready to do this? Yes. So the 2 recommendation that the Working Group would offer 3 to ASRAC as a part of its term sheet is what you 4 see up there on the screen -- the pump energy 5 rating, the PER CL and VL, and pump energy index, 6 PEI CL and VL as listed. 7 All those in favor of accepting these 8 recommendations and sending them to ASRAC, please 9 signify by raising your hands. 10 So scanning around the room, everybody 11 here present agrees with that as a recommendation. 12 And I'm going to count Steve Rosenstock as being 13 an abstention and Howard Richardson or his 14 delegate as being absent. 15 Okay. So we should pause now and 16 applaud. 17 (Applause) 18 MR. BROOKMAN: Well done. I hate to see 19 this group stop. We're getting really good at 20 this stuff. We really are. We are really doing - 21 - getting really good at this. 22 MR. FERNSTROM: Doug, this is Gary. Did

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 226 1 Steve actually abstain or is he just not here? 2 MR. BROOKMAN: He's not here and he sent 3 a message that wherein he asked that his vote be 4 counted as an abstention. And maybe though, since 5 he's absent, he should be counted as "absent." 6 Maybe that's splitting hairs since we don't need 7 the vote. 8 MR. FERNSTROM: Well, if he sent the 9 note, I think our ground rules stipulated that 10 people could vote even if they're not here as long 11 as they're committee members. So I think his vote 12 ought to be counted the way he voted. 13 MR. BROOKMAN: I didn't remember that 14 specific, but that's how I count it. Okay. 15 Okay. So that -- those -- that -- those 16 three recommendations will be a part of the term 17 sheet. 18 And what else should -- you want to take 19 a peek at the draft term sheet at this point? 20 MR. HUBER: Do we want to go back to 21 labeling? We did -- we did caucus on that issue. 22 MR. BROOKMAN: Well, okay, let's go back

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 227 1 to labeling. Sure. 2 MR. HUBER: What we -- in our caucus 3 what we, since most of us label anyway -- I mean, 4 that's what we do. We're talking about nameplate. 5 Our thought is that we put the nominal PEI CL or 6 VL on the label, on our nameplate label. 7 And that's what they're doing in Europe, 8 by the way, they're doing an MEI. So we're sure 9 that our marketing people, if they've got one 10 that's better than 25, they're gonna want to put 11 it on there. 12 And so we -- we're -- but one of the 13 things we want to look at or one of the things 14 that we -- if we don't manufacture it then -- or 15 provide it, then we'll not label it. 16 In other words, if we're ownership in a 17 bare pump, we'll put a PEI CL. If we're shipping 18 a bare pump and a motor, we'll put a PEI CL. If 19 we're shipping the whole unit, we'll put a PEI VL. 20 MR. BROOKMAN: Uh-huh. 21 MR. HUBER: They show both. I don't 22 know.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 228 1 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: You show both? 2 MR. HUBER: Yeah, we would show both at 3 that point. 4 MR. BROOKMAN: Because you couldn't tell 5 whether that would arrive intact or be in the 6 field intact or? 7 MR. HUBER: Well, we don't know. We 8 don't -- we really have no control over -- we 9 really have no control over what somebody puts on 10 it. So if -- if we're not putting it on it, we're 11 saying we probably don't want to label it. I 12 mean, legally we don't want to be responsible for 13 it. 14 For instance, somebody's gonna want -- 15 somebody may run into a situation where -- and Jay 16 brought this up -- that the spec requires it has 17 to be a PEI 50 and we label it a VL of something 18 less than that and then the distributor goes out 19 and finds a control and he does it and it's 20 actually 50, then he's either got to change the 21 nameplate or he's got to do something anyway. 22 Something's got to happen, something's got to

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 229 1 change. 2 So we just don't want to be responsible. 3 We don't want to label it 50 because that's what 4 the guy says he's gonna do and then he gets it out 5 in the field and it doesn't meet that, then it's 6 coming back to us because we're the ones that 7 labeled it. 8 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. 9 MR. HUBER: So that's -- that's one of 10 our concerns. 11 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah, Meg Waltner. 12 MS. WALTNER: Question -- I have a 13 question, Al. What other information is currently 14 on the nameplate label? 15 MR. HUBER: It varies by manufacturer. 16 We put speed, we put model number, we put -- we 17 put impeller diameter, we put -- we put 18 efficiency, a design, whatever -- the head and 19 flow. So there's a lot of information on a 20 nameplate. 21 This would just be added to it and it 22 would say, in this case, like they did at -- in

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 230 1 Europe they put "MEI" and then give the number. 2 Because we're sure our marketing people are not 3 going to just put "MEI 25." If they got a 50, 4 they're going to put it. They're going to want it 5 on there. 6 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: The PL you mean 7 or PEI? 8 MR. HUBER: I mean, a PEI CL. They're 9 going to want it on there for marketing purposes. 10 But we really don't think we want to put it on 11 there. You know, we're not -- we're not sure but 12 we really think legally we better be careful about 13 labeling something that we're not providing. 14 MS. WALTNER: Right. And I guess my 15 question for my utility friends is, you know, what 16 else would be useful on the label besides PEI. And 17 it sounds like maybe some of these things are 18 already often included, but. 19 (Off the record) 20 MR. BROOKMAN: Tom Eckman. 21 MR. ECKMAN: I think the most important 22 thing is a way to get back to the -- what the

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 231 1 listing with the other data we're looking at so 2 there's a crosswalk -- 3 MR. HUBER: Yeah. 4 MR. ECKMAN: -- whether it's the model 5 number or serial number, something that takes us 6 back -- 7 MR. HUBER: Yeah. Well, ours will have 8 a serial number. All but one manufacturer here 9 has -- doesn't have his serial number on theirs 10 but the rest of us do. 11 MR. BROOKMAN: Bob Barbour. 12 MR. BARBOUR: Bob Barbour with Taco. And 13 this is directed more to Lucas. 14 Lucas, when someone is actually put into 15 the data base, is each model given a -- like a 16 listing number that could be then put onto the 17 label that would tie back to all the information? 18 MR. ADIN: Well, the -- so the way that 19 we do it for pretty much every other product, I 20 can't think of a -- an exception is that they're 21 listed by model number. So the way to find a 22 particular --

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 232 1 MR. BARBOUR: But there's no listing 2 number. 3 (Off the record) 4 MR. ADIN: A basic model. Right. Thank 5 you. But they're listed by basic model and 6 individual model number. 7 MR. BROOKMAN: And individual. So 8 they'd have basic models and then they'd have an 9 extension or some way to qualify that it's a part 10 of that basic model, but it's a distinctive 11 individual -- 12 (Off the record) 13 MR. ADIN: The rating has -- is actually 14 described yesterday. The rating has to be 15 assigned on the basis of basic model number. 16 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. 17 MR. ADIN: Where all the individual 18 model numbers that are the same basic model would 19 just have the same rating. 20 MR. HANDZEL: So that'll be the same 21 number -- Mark Handzel -- that'll be the same 22 number that we would put on our nameplate.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 233 1 MR. BROOKMAN: That was Mark Handzel. 2 MR. ADIN: Yes. That's right. 3 (Off the record) 4 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Bob, keep going. 5 MR. BARBOUR: This is Bob Barbour again 6 from Taco. So I want to make sure I understand 7 this. The basic model would be the -- say one and 8 a half, two by one and a half by seven pump with a 9

-- 10 MR. HUBER: Yeah. 11 MR. BARBOUR: -- full wheel at BEP and 12 that would be certified as being -- meeting the 13 appropriate PEI point or PEI CL. 14 If we then had customers that wanted to 15 trim and use different drives underneath smaller - 16 - so smaller impellers -- 17 MR. HANDZEL: But that's why we're using 18

-- 19 MR. BARBOUR: -- and different drives. 20 MR. HANDZEL: -- a nominal number, Bob. 21 MR. BARBOUR: Then that would all still 22 qualify under that one basic model --

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 234 1 MR. HUBER: That is correct. 2 MR. BARBOUR: -- certification? 3 MR. HUBER: That is correct. 4 MR. BARBOUR: That's how we're -- 5 MR. HANDZEL: Because we're certified 6 based on full load impeller. That's why we're 7 calling it "nominal" even though -- 8 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Variation -- 9 MR. HANDZEL: -- a trim version that 10 we're supplying, but we're showing the PEI nominal 11 CL on the nameplate. 12 MR. ADIN: Yeah, right, changes made to 13 the product that are different from the -- or the 14 configuration under which it's required to be 15 rated wouldn't be. Right? 16 So if you trim the impeller subsequent 17 to the rating of the product based on full 18 impeller, that's not -- right. That's different. 19 MR. HUBER: Yeah, it's -- 20 MR. BROOKMAN: And I -- I didn't -- I 21 did not follow that. Yeah, so will you say it 22 again.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 235 1 MR. ADIN: So we agreed previously that 2 the basis of the rating and the standard is on 3 testing of the pump at full impeller. 4 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. 5 MR. ADIN: So if someone were to trim 6 the impeller -- 7 MR. BROOKMAN: Uh-huh. 8 MR. ADIN: -- for a particular 9 application, that does not invalidate the rating 10 of that particular basic model of pump. 11 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. That was very 12 clear. Charlie. 13 MR. CAPPELINO: Charlie Cappelino, ITT. 14 So maybe another way to basically describe this is 15 you need enough information in the data base to be 16 able to tie back to the certification testing. 17 Right? 18 MR. ADIN: That's right. 19 MR. CAPPELINO: So it's got to be a walk 20 back. So -- 21 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Basic model. 22 MR. CAPPELINO: -- so not only the size

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 236 1 information that you talked about, Bob, but 2 whatever product designation you have for that 3 family of sizes as well. 4 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Whatever you call 5 it. 6 MR. CAPPELINO: Whatever you call that 7 product. 8 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Models. 9 MR. CAPPELINO: Whatever it is you use 10 to identify it. That's -- I mean, for every other 11 product, it's a model number, so. 12 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Right. Right. 13 (Off the record) 14 MR. FERNSTROM: This -- this is Gary. I 15 have a question though. In Bob's example, he said 16 "different drive." And I don't know whether a 17 product with a different drive would be part of 18 the same basic product class or not. 19 MS. WIDDER: So the issue here is beyond 20 drives. I think he may have said "drives." And 21 correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm really talking 22 about motors. I think he's talking about motor

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 237 1 sizing. 2 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Motor or drive 3 could be smaller. 4 MS. WIDDER: Well, so could be different 5 sizes. Right. So if you trim the impeller 6 significantly, you can get away with a smaller 7 motor and maybe a smaller drive. 8 And it wouldn't be appropriate to rate 9 the full trim impeller pump with those smaller 10 motors and drives. It's just not -- it didn't 11 make sense. And so -- 12 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's be careful about 13 the lexicon here. Because when you said "product 14 class," you meant basic model. 15 MR. FERNSTROM: That's what I meant. 16 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. 17 MR. ADIN: Right. And so to be a little 18 clearer about that, because we're talking about 19 pumps with drives as being different from pumps 20 without a drive, it wouldn't be the same basic 21 model. 22 It just depends on where that drive is

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 238 1 attached to that particular -- is that -- was that 2 answering your question or? 3 MS. WIDDER: No, I think it was more you 4 do get -- it's a different size drive that could 5 be put on a pump with an impeller trim, same pump, 6 same wet end. 7 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay. 8 MS. WIDDER: But it's a trimmed 9 impeller. And so it can receive a smaller motor 10 and a smaller drive. 11 (Off the record) 12 MS. WIDDER: Not necessarily a different 13 drive, but a smaller. 14 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay. So, Sarah, let me 15 -- this is Gary again. 16 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. 17 MR. FERNSTROM: Let me ask a follow-up 18 question. 19 MS. WIDDER: Sure. 20 MR. FERNSTROM: I think we're talking in 21 the context of products that would be certified 22 through the analytical process here. If a product

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 239 1 is actually tested, would the full size impeller 2 and motor and drive sold with that be tested and 3 then maybe a product of the same basic model but 4 of smaller size not be tested and still be 5 certified? I'm wondering how that would work. 6 MS. WIDDER: So I think -- I'm going to 7 describe something and let me know if it answers 8 your question. 9 So to Lucas's point, so if I were to 10 sell a pump with a motor and a drive at full 11 impeller as well as lower -- as several impeller 12 trims and I paired it with similar but smaller 13 motors and drives, all of that equipment would be 14 under the same basic model. 15 MR. FERNSTROM: Right. 16 MS. WIDDER: If, let's say, I offer this 17 pump -- and this is going to be a weird scenario 18 so you guys are going to look at me funny -- but 19 let's say I look at -- I offer this pump with a 20 motor and a drive, like a VFD and then an ECM 21 motor, and I offer the motor and drive all the way 22 up to what is full impeller trim and then I offer

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 240 1 the ECM only to 75 percent of full. 2 Because it's a ECM, 75 percent of 3 impeller trim becomes full impeller trim because 4 it's a different basic model. It's a different 5 motor. And so if I didn't offer it all the way up 6 to what is the same as full impeller trim on that 7 same wet end, it's -- it's whatever's the largest 8 impeller trim that is offered with that 9 configuration of products. 10 Does that answer your question, sort of? 11 DOUG BROOKMAN: It does. I see Al has a 12 follow-up question, Gary. 13 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. 14 MR. HUBER: Give me just a moment to 15 clarify this. So the question that I'm trying to 16 answer for myself is when we get this performance 17 rating, will it be indicative of the performance 18 of the product being sold? 19 And I think the answer's maybe no. It 20 would be indicative of that product model group 21 basic model but not necessarily the exact product 22 being sold.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 241 1 MR. ADIN: With respect to the way that 2 basic models are rated, I mean, typically what a 3 manufacturer would do is, if they're going to 4 group basic models that way, they'd base it on the 5 least efficient rating within that basic model 6 group. 7 So every other individual model should 8 be at least as good as what that rating says so 9 that if tested and it didn't pass -- 10 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber. 11 MR. HUBER: That's not -- 12 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. 13 MR. HUBER: -- what we're doing here. 14 We're rating it in -- I can tell you no. If you 15 rate it at full diameter impeller, that is the 16 best efficiency you're going to get. 17 MS. WIDDER: Right. 18 MR. HUBER: And that's the rating -- 19 MR. ADIN: Right. 20 MR. HUBER: -- for the pump. So every 21 time you trim it, it changes. 22 MR. ADIN: I'm not talking about

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 242 1 variations in impeller trim. 2 MR. HUBER: Well, yeah, but that's what 3 she's talking about. That's the problem. If I 4 trim it, then I can use a smaller -- smaller motor 5 or a smaller drive. 6 She's saying, and I agreed with what she 7 said the first time, which is, it'll be -- the 8 certification under PER VL will be done at full 9 diameter, full horsepower, full VFD. 10 MS. WIDDER: Uh-huh. 11 MR. HUBER: We do not agree that if I 12 change motors that it's a different model or if I 13 change motor types, like go to an ECM, it's now a 14 different model. Because I mean, we're going to 15 get -- 16 MR. BROOKMAN: 'Cause you want the basic 17 model to correspond to the -- 18 MR. HUBER: The pump model. 19 MR. BROOKMAN: -- the pump. 20 MS. WIDDER: So -- 21 (Off the record) 22 MR. HUBER: If you don't, we're going to

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 243 1 get real complicated real fast, and we're going to 2 -- we're going to burden the industry with a bunch 3 of additional information. 4 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah, so this is Alison. 5 I think that technically since you voted to limit 6 the scope to full impellers, technically trimmed 7 impellers don't actually -- 8 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Aren't covered. 9 MS. WILLIAMS: -- receive a rating. So 10 we can -- as part of the labeling requirement, 11 right, require that nominal full impeller trim 12 reading on the label but they're not actually 13 subject to standards. 14 Does that -- 15 MS. HUBER: No, that doesn't make sense. 16 Not subject to standards doesn't make any sense. 17 MS. WILLIAMS: Right. 18 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: I think that -- 19 MR. HUBER: What makes sense is -- and I 20 agree with you, it is a nominal rating. 21 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah. 22 MR. HUBER: At full diameter, that's

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 244 1 what's going to be on the label and nothing else. 2 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay. So this is Gary 3 again. Let me ask one more follow-up question. I 4 want to make sure that when our measurement and 5 evaluation field audit team goes out to see what's 6 installed they can tell from the label that what's 7 there is what we thought was there. 8 But secondly, I want to make sure it 9 works the way we thought it did. So we're going 10 to have nominal information to base our rebates 11 on, how much might the actual product installed 12 vary from the efficiency performance of the 13 nominal product. 14 MR. HUBER: It -- Gary, it depends on 15 the trim range of the pump. And it can be 16 extreme. I mean, we're talking about going from - 17 - from, say, 90 to in the 60s efficiency wise. 18 Depends on how far away from the cut water, how 19 far from -- I mean, how far from the -- from the 20 design that you get. 21 And we -- and we very rarely sell -- and 22 we went through this before -- we very rarely sell

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 245 1 full diameter. We do sometimes but it is not 2 often. 3 So most of the -- most of the product 4 that you see out there is not gonna to be at full 5 diameter. So that's why -- that's why he kept 6 telling you we want it to say "nominal" 'cause 7 that's what it is. It is for that family. 8 Now, what are you getting from that? 9 Well, you're getting -- if it -- if the full 10 diameter meets it and is improved and is better, 11 so is the trim range. It all improves literally. 12 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay. Thank you. 13 MR. HUBER: But I can't -- you don't 14 understand. We can trim impellers to 1/16 of an 15 inch -- 16 MR. FERNSTROM: Yeah. 17 MR. HUBER: -- each increment. And 18 sometimes we trim 2 or 3 inches. 19 MR. BROOKMAN: When you trim -- 20 MR. HUBER: So you can -- you can think 21 -- if you think about the number of ratings you'd 22 have to have within one model, it would be

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 246 1 astronomical. 2 MR. BROOKMAN: So that basic model when 3 you trim the impeller, the efficiency of that 4 pump, the inherent efficiency with the other -- 5 the other modifications is going to be -- 6 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: The best 7 efficiency for that trimmed impeller could be less 8 than the best efficiency with the full run. 9 MR. HUBER: It more -- more than likely 10 will be. I mean, it depends on how much you have 11 to trim. But it -- more than likely it will drop. 12 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 13 MR. HUBER: And it drops like this. 14 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Charlie Cappelino. 15 MR. CAPPELINO: Charlie Cappelino, ITT. 16 So from -- Gary, from a rebate standpoint, I 17 presume you're mostly considering applications 18 where you have applied a variable speed drive. 19 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. Yes, that 20 would be correct. 21 MR. CAPPELINO: So, Al, when you're 22 selling a pump with a variable speed drive, the

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 247 1 probability of having a max diameter impeller in 2 there to begin with is probably pretty high. 3 Right? 4 MR. HUBER: Not necessarily. No, they 5 will give us a design point and it could be -- it 6 could be -- and we do it every day, and a lot of 7 times, no, the answer's no. The answer is 8 absolutely no. 9 MR. FERNSTROM: But this -- 10 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel. I'll answer 11 differently and say that the industry is changing, 12 Charlie. And we are seeing more specifications 13 for pumps with drives with full runner impellers. 14 Okay. 15 So we are starting to see it. So it's 16 not -- it's not 100 percent like I think Al may 17 have implied but, you know, it's not -- it's not 18 the majority by any means at this point. But it 19 is -- 20 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Not even close. 21 MR. HANDZEL: Yeah, not even close. But 22 people are starting to recognize, you know, go

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 248 1 with the full runner, so you get the best 2 efficiency and use a drive to slow it down to 3 match what you need. 4 MR. FERNSTROM: So this is -- this is 5 Gary again. I'm trying to get to the answer I 6 want to hear. And I thought Al was close to it. 7 Might we expect the improvement to flow 8 through the range of trimmed impeller products? 9 MR. HUBER: There's no question about 10 it, Gary. 11 MR. HANDZEL: As we redesign products, 12 of course you get a corresponding increase in 13 efficiency across all trims. Okay. So it's -- 14 it's just that the -- you may trim yourself out of 15 what we call the "best efficiency point." And 16 that's where you're going to see, you know, the 17 concern. 18 MR. FERNSTROM: So if -- one more 19 question -- if I order a pump and I want the 20 impeller trimmed, maybe significantly, such that I 21 see a reduction in efficiency, would I have a 22 choice of selecting a different pump that may be -

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 249 1 - 2 MR. HANDZEL: Of course. 3 MR. FERNSTROM: -- originally but 4 presumably the specifying engineer would pick the 5 best -- 6 MR. HANDZEL: Efficiency pump. 7 MR. FERNSTROM: -- efficiency pump. And 8 it's probably more expensive and less desirable to 9 get an oversized pump and trim it than it is to 10 get one that's more properly sized to begin with. 11 MR. HANDZEL: So, Gary -- Mark Handzel 12 from Xylem -- we all have -- most of us have 13 selection programs or some of us use industry 14 standard selection programs. Those programs 15 typically select the most efficient pump and list 16 that as the number one selection. 17 So we try to encourage, you know, the 18 people to go with those. But we may be selecting 19 a trimmed impeller pump, okay, just because that's 20 the most efficient pump. 21 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay. 22 MR. HANDZEL: So, you know, we don't --

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 250 1 we don't try to force anybody to full runners, you 2 know. We suggest they go with the most efficient 3 pump. 4 MR. FERNSTROM: Thank you. 5 MR. BROOKMAN: Doug Potts. 6 MR. POTTS: And, Gary, just another 7 comment to add to that. 8 MR. BROOKMAN: Doug Potts. 9 MR. POTTS: That's okay. Doug Potts. 10 Just another comment to add to that is that, yeah, 11 as you trim an impeller, it becomes less efficient 12 but it's also using less horsepower, so. 13 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Even more 14 desirable as well. 15 MR. POTTS: Overall your energy usage is 16 most likely going to be less as you trim the 17 impeller. 18 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay. This is Gary. 19 Thank you all. 20 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. Louis. 21 MR. STARR: So one question I have is a 22 lot of times there's no way to know that

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 251 1 impeller's trimmed or not, right, or unless you 2 take and look at the operating point and look on 3 the pump curve and -- 4 MR. HANDZEL: So when -- this is Mark 5 Handzel from Xylem -- when you're using most 6 software, the way they mostly operate is that, you 7 know, you can see right away, we show you like a 8 graphic image of the curve and you can tell where 9 it falls in the band of flow. 10 Okay. So you can -- we make it very -- 11 most of us make it very visible. But it -- 12 MR. STARR: Be nice -- 13 MR. HANDZEL: -- doesn't flag that it's 14 full runner but you can see it graphically. 15 MR. STARR: Be nice if on the pump case 16 you knew somehow whether the impeller was trimmed. 17 I mean, that's because when you go out there -- 18 not -- I mean, it'd be great if you could see 19 through the pump case, that'd be even better. 20 (Off the record) 21 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber. 22 MR. HUBER: If you, Louis, if you -- if

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 252 1 you look at -- if you look at the model and you 2 look at the -- most people's curves show you what 3 full diameter is. 4 And I know we do. I don't know if 5 everybody else does. We put the diameter of the 6 impeller that's actually in there. So if you -- 7 if you looked at it and you looked at the curve, 8 you could tell it was trimmed. 9 MR. BROOKMAN: On the label? 10 MR. HUBER: On the label, yeah. 11 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Each basic model, 12 it would be there on the label. 13 MR. HUBER: No. 14 (Off the record) 15 MR. HUBER: No, no, no, no. 16 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 17 MS. WIDDER: Individual models. 18 MR. HUBER: Only what was to ship. 19 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Greg Towsley. 20 MR. TOWSLEY: I agree with that last 21 point. A lot of times the nameplates have what 22 the actual diameter trim impeller is.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 253 1 Something to add, to EE NGOs (ph), when 2 you start talking about trimmed impellers, you're 3 talking about a constant speed pump. 4 There's a few -- there's a few engineers 5 that will trim impellers and require VFDs. That's 6 questionable why -- sometimes why that's done, 7 depending on what the application is. 8 But yeah, but when you take a look at 9 the PEI that we're talking about -- again, this is 10 my opinion -- but if you were to see a constant 11 speed pump with a PEI CL, I'm 90 percent sure that 12 it probably has a trimmed impeller in it, that it 13 didn't go out as standard if it's constant speed 14 because they're trying to hit a specific head and 15 flow point. 16 But at the same time, if I were to see a 17 pump, and you're looking at ways to incentivize, 18 if I saw a pump that had a PEI of a VL which is 19 going to be considerably lower, again I'm 90 20 percent confident that it'll have a full diameter 21 impeller or very near full diameter impeller. 22 Any --

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 254 1 MS. MAUER: This is -- 2 MR. TOWSLEY: -- comments from the 3 other? 4 MS. MAUER: This is Joanna. I was just 5 going to say it sounds different than what Al and 6 Mark -- 7 MR. HUBER: Well, it -- 8 MS. MAUER: -- were saying. 9 MR. HUBER: -- it depends on -- it 10 certainly depends on whether you're shipping it 11 constant load or variable load. There is a shift 12 in the marketplace now where some customers are 13 asking for full diameter impellers. 14 But it is -- at this point it is 15 dependent on which market it is and which type of 16 pump it is and so forth. It has not been adopted 17 fully and we're not seeing it. Right now it's a 18 small percentage at this point but it's growing. 19 People are understanding they don't have to trim. 20 They can take full diameter and slow it down. 21 Did that answer your question? 22 MS. MAUER: Yeah. Thank you.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 255 1 MR. BROOKMAN: Are there other things to 2 be said with respect to labeling? I notice that 3 Sarah has a slide up here. Do you think you've 4 captured what -- the foregoing conversation? 5 MS. WIDDER: So what I've heard as being 6 attractive potentially to be on the label, the 7 same as standard refers to the PL -- PEI CL -- oh, 8 go ahead. 9 MR. BROOKMAN: Hang on just a second. I 10 want to make sure I've got everybody's attention 11 while you're summarizing what we might be adding 12 as a recommendation. Now proceed. 13 MS. WIDDER: Okay. So what I heard in 14 terms of -- well, I'll just first summarize the 15 whole impeller trim thing which I think we got 16 resolved as all impeller trims would be certified 17 as at full runner impeller and that certification 18 would hold for any impeller trim sold, you know, 19 for that pump model, for that pump basic model. 20 The label for that pump model would 21 include, for each individual model would include 22 the PEI CL or VL as appropriate for that basic

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 256 1 model under which the pump is certified, the model 2 number so you could trace it back to the other 3 data that's in the data base easily. 4 And I noted this last maybe up for 5 debate, but I heard I think Louis mention that 6 maybe it would be helpful to have the impeller 7 diameter and that be common on some pump labels 8 already. 9 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: It's on -- it's 10 on the -- 11 (Off the record) 12 MS. WIDDER: So impeller diameter, 13 that's a no never mind, but we could include it 14 any ways because that's helpful for the utility 15 folks to help them understand what that product 16 they're trying to verify actually is. 17 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber. No. 18 MS. WIDDER: Okay. 19 MR. BROOKMAN: So that summary -- 20 MS. WIDDER: I think Meg has an 21 addition. 22 MS. WALTNER: Just to --

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 257 1 MR. BROOKMAN: Please, Meg. 2 MS. WALTNER: -- clarify. That's the 3 actual impeller diameter. 4 MS. WIDDER: Yes, for each unit. 5 MS. WALTNER: So if it's a trimmed 6 impeller, that's the actual -- okay. 7 MR. WIDDER: Uh-huh. 8 MR. BROOKMAN: Do you wish to vote on 9 this and just send this as a recommendation on how 10 labeling should be? 11 Mark Handzel. 12 MR. HANDZEL: I guess I'm just trying to 13 understand. Why do we have options A and B? What 14 are you trying to accomplish? 15 MS. WIDDER: Nothing. I can delete -- 16 MS. HANDZEL: Okay. Because -- 17 MS. WIDDER: -- A. 18 MR. HANDZEL: -- because -- 19 MS. WIDDER: Let me delete A and just 20 add -- say "label." We don't need this. 21 MR. HANDZEL: Okay. And the only thing 22 I'd --

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 258 1 MS. WIDDER: How's that? 2 MR. HANDZEL: -- just say is, obviously 3 we've been talking about this being a nominal 4 value. So I just -- would just ask today we add 5 "nominal." 6 MR. BROOKMAN: Hang on. 7 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. You know what I'll 8 do -- 9 MR. BROOKMAN: Sarah. 10 MS. WIDDER: Yes. 11 (Off the record) 12 MS. WIDDER: Go ahead. I can multi13 task. I'm listening. 14 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber. 15 MR. HUBER: When you said both 16 controlled and uncontrolled performance captured 17 on the label, it's -- that's not what we proposed. 18 What we proposed is if we sell it as a bare pump 19 or as -- 20 MS. WIDDER: Oh, sorry. 21 MR. HUBER: -- a bare pump and motor. 22 MS. WIDDER: Yeah, sorry. I didn't mean

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 259 1 that. 2 MR. HUBER: You didn't mean that. Okay. 3 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: You corrected the 4 chart but not the verbiage. 5 MS. WIDDER: Right, I didn't -- 6 MR. HUBER: All right. 7 MS. WIDDER: -- address the -- I didn't 8 address the up -- the top part. 9 MR. HUBER: Okay. Okay. Is that -- 10 there you go. I think that's consistent. 11 MR. POTTS: I have a comment when you're 12 done. 13 MS. WIDDER: Yep, go ahead. 14 MR. BROOKMAN: Have you got it all the 15 way you want it? 16 MS. WIDDER: I think so. 17 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Please, Doug 18 Potts. 19 MR. POTTS: Doug Potts. So I understand 20 that we use the PER CL and PER VL. That's -- I 21 understand why we have to use the full diameter. 22 But there is a little bit of a risk that

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 260 1 we could confuse the marketplace by giving the PER 2 that's the nominal for the full impeller, but 3 we're also saying what the actual impeller is for 4 that particular model. 5 Some people could misconstrue that as 6 thinking, oh, that's the PER for the actual pump 7 that I'm purchasing. 8 Is there some way that we can add a note 9 on that label to make it clear that it's -- 10 (Off the record) 11 MR. POTTS: -- truly a nominal -- 12 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Nominal over and 13 over and over again. 14 MR. POTTS: Yeah. 15 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: That we -- we 16 will label it as nominal. So really the label 17 needs -- it should be PEI CL nominal, NOM -- 18 (Off the record) 19 MR. HUBER: Let me ask Greg Towsley a 20 question because I think he is more familiar than 21 the rest of us. 22 In Europe they're labeling it an MEI,

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 261 1 but they're also doing what we're talking about. 2 Right? They're only doing it at full diameter, 3 but they're not putting the word "nominal" on 4 there, are they? 5 MR. CASE: No, they're not. Greg 6 Towsley, Grundfos. No, it's exactly for the full 7 diameter as tested per the regulation. 8 I think the clarification, at least for 9 us on the communication piece, is in all of our 10 I&Os that are shipped out with the pumps there's 11 more detail about the nameplate label and what's 12 in it and what's designated in it. 13 And that may be the place to be able to 14 give more communication about what that means and 15 any -- I don't want to say "disclaimers," but any 16 better communication on it. But usually the IOMs 17 would have that in there so -- that ship with the 18 pump. 19 MS. WILLIAMS: This is Alison. I just 20 looked up the EU requirements. So there is just 21 the one MEI. But they also have a labeling 22 requirement that says "hydraulic pump efficiency

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 262 1 with trimmed impeller actual value or 2 alternatively the indication blank," which Euro 3 Pump I guess interpreted as you have to have that 4 clause on the pump. You can either provide the 5 value or you cannot provide the value. 6 I don't really understand the merit of 7 that (inaudible) but I just wanted to be clear 8 that that's what they're apparently doing in the 9 EU. 10 And the other thing I wanted to add is 11 that since PEI is the metric, which is really just 12 a ratio, it's maybe not -- and similarly the MEI 13 is just sort of like a value. Right? They don't 14 really indicate the energy use of the pump. They 15 just sort of indicate it's relative performance. 16 So perhaps it's not as misleading as it 17 would be were it an actual energy use value. 18 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Louis. 19 MR. STARR: I just have one other 20 question. You know, a lot of times the engineer 21 puts in its design point you get out there and 22 then there actually is more -- less pressure drop.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 263 1 So do you ever go back and re-trim the 2 impeller again or is it just one-stop or do they 3 just put the valve and crank it down so that you 4 get the pressure drop you need and? 5 MR. HUBER: They either cycle it off -- 6 on and off more often or they crank it down, but 7 they normally don't ask us to come back and trim 8 it. We have but it is extremely rare. 9 MR. HANDZEL: And Mark Handzel from 10 Xylem. Greg -- 11 MR. HUBER: They should but they don't. 12 MR. HANDZEL: -- 90.1 says they're 13 supposed to, doesn't it, go back and trim after 14 it's done commissioning? 15 (Off the record) 16 MR. HANDZEL: Actually 90.1 for 17 buildings, you know, HVAC applications does 18 specify that they're supposed to come back and 19 trim. But like Al said, it doesn't happen. It's 20 too costly. 21 (Off the record) 22 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Do you think the

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 264 1 words up there on the screen are an accurate 2 reflection of where we have landed here? 3 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel from Xylem. 4 So the thing that kind of relates to this is also 5 what's -- what's in the data base. 6 So, Sarah, I don't think we're 7 collecting the full runner impeller diameter in 8 the data base, are we, right now? 9 MS. WIDDER: We haven't talked about 10 what we're going to collect at all yet. 11 MR. HANDZEL: I know. But I mean, if 12 we're going to -- but we're -- 13 MS. WIDDER: This is a preliminary list 14 that -- 15 MR. HANDZEL: Right. 16 MS. WIDDER: -- I started over lunch. 17 That could be added to. Full impeller diameter 18 could be on there. 19 MR. HANDZEL: I don't know if it needs - 20 - 21 MS. WIDDER: I don't think it is 22 necessarily relevant.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 265 1 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Well, no, I don't 2 want to either. But I guess. 3 (Off the record) 4 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Yeah, it did. 5 That's right. That's -- you know, my concern is 6 that full size impeller diameter describes the 7 basic model because that's what we're basing the 8 data on. 9 So I'm not trying to add anything to it, 10 but I almost think we need to have it in there. 11 MR. BROOKMAN: The "impeller as shipped" 12 would be on there. 13 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: The "impeller as 14 shipped" will be on the nameplate. 15 MS. WIDDER: On the label. 16 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: On the nameplate. 17 MS. WIDDER: Not the basic model. 18 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Yeah, but you got 19 the modeling crosswalk back to the -- to the full 20 lab. I mean, it's -- but we really need it in 21 there for their purposes. 22 (Off the record)

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 266 1 MR. HANDZEL: Okay. So I think that's 2 why it's got to be in there. So -- this is Mark. 3 I think we have a consensus that it 4 needs to be in there, the full impeller diameter. 5 Because otherwise, there's no reference to know 6 what the PEI is based on in terms of -- 7 (Off the record) 8 MR. HANDZEL: Right. So it does define 9 the basic model, so it needs to be in there. 10 MR. BROOKMAN: Oh, and this is the -- 11 MR. HANDZEL: Right. 12 MR. BROOKMAN: -- just to be clear for 13 the record, this is -- this slide reads, "Data to 14 be included in the certification report." So 15 that's in addition to that. 16 So with this, Sarah, I'm okay with now 17 going back to the nameplate. 18 MS. WIDDER: Okay. 19 MR. HANDZEL: And I think we're good to 20 -- I just want to make sure we -- 21 MS. WIDDER: Yep. 22 MR. HANDZEL: -- we're cross-

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 267 1 referencing. 2 MS. WIDDER: Yep. Yep. 3 MR. HANDZEL: Thank you. 4 MR. BROOKMAN: Would you like to make 5 this listing a recommendation from the Working 6 Group to ASRAC? 7 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Yes. 8 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Yes, we would. 9 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Okay. So then you 10 want to just read it. 11 MS. WIDDER: Sure. Okay. So the top 12 words are not really that relevant. I guess we 13 could say -- let's say this, now it's more 14 relevant, "Pumps are to be labeled based on the 15 configuration in which they are sold." So the 16 uncontrolled pumps would receive a PER CL -- or 17 change this to PEI -- apologize -- and the 18 controlled pumps would receive a PEI VL as noted 19 in the table. 20 So the applicable nominal standard -- 21 I'll add the word "nominal" -- because I think you 22 guys --

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 268 1 MR. HUBER: Well, no, I thought what 2 Alison said was that it's really not -- because 3 this is already an index, you don't need to. Isn't 4 that what you said, Alison? 5 (Off the record) 6 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah, right. Because - I 7 don't know if you need it or not. I was just 8 pointing out but perhaps it wasn't -- 9 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. 10 MS. WILLIAMS: -- as confusing. 11 MR. HANDZEL: So I'm okay with not 12 including it. 13 MS. WIDDER: Okay. Great. 14 MR. HANDZEL: As long as none of my 15 fellow guys object to it. 16 MR. ADIN: And I -- 17 MS. WIDDER: I would prefer that because 18 clearer terms are going to -- 19 MR. ADIN: I just want to -- yeah, and I 20 want to be clear about something, too. This is 21 Lucas. 22 I mean, the way we've been talking about

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 269 1 all this all along is that there really is only, 2 for our purposes, one PEI which is at full 3 impeller. That's what the standard is based on, 4 that's what the test procedure measure is. 5 So if you put "nominal," it might imply 6 that there's something else, so -- 7 MR. HANDZEL: No, I -- 8 MR. ADIN: -- really there's, you know. 9 MR. HANDZEL: Right. I'm okay with -- 10 MR. ADIN: Unless we identify -- sorry, 11 identify something else, then that's -- 12 MR. HANDZEL: But like I said, I think 13 it'll be up to all of us to educate and -- because 14 we're going to start putting a name and people are 15 going to say, What the heck is that. 16 MR. ADIN: Right. 17 MR. HANDZEL: Okay. Because it's just 18 something new. We haven't changed our nameplates 19 in 40 years, so. 20 MR. ADIN: Sure. 21 MR. HANDZEL: But it's fine. Leave it 22 off.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 270 1 MS. WIDDER: Right. Okay. 2 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 3 MS. WIDDER: Great. So that would be 4 reflected on the -- 5 MR. HANDZEL: Oh, Lucas, DOE has a 6 marketing campaign to help us advertise this. 7 Right? There goes my taxes. Don't raise any 8 taxes, please. 9 MR. ADIN: A certification database. 10 MS. WIDDER: Right. So the standard for 11 -- the applicable standard for each basic model 12 would be on the nameplate, the model number -- and 13 in that case, that refers to the individual model 14 number, to the extent there are multiple 15 individual models that are certified under the 16 same basic model -- and the impeller diameter for 17 each unit, each individual pump, that is sold. 18 (Off the record) 19 MS. WIDDER: Yep. I'll add commas, too. 20 We'll be grammatically correct. 21 MR. BROOKMAN: Why is the comma after 22 the CL and the VL?

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 271 1 MS. WIDDER: Because it's PEI CL, comma, 2 model number, comma. 3 MR. BROOKMAN: Oh. 4 MS. WIDDER: And (inaudible). 5 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 6 MS. WIDDER: Okay. 7 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis. 8 MR. STARR: So does it -- do you need to 9 make it distinguished whether it's a tested value 10 or a calculated value somehow or does it -- you 11 would know that or? 12 MS. WIDDER: I think that would 13 potentially be more appropriate for the 14 certification database. 15 MR. BROOKMAN: So this is good. We're 16 gaining ground on this I think. 17 And go back to the previous slide. Are 18 we ready to say this is the recommendation from 19 the Working Group? Yes? Okay. Lucas. 20 MR. ADIN: I just want to be clear on 21 what the recommendation is. We're saying this is 22 the content that would be required to be on a pump

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 272 1 nameplate for any type of pump that's covered 2 under this regulation? 3 MR. BROOKMAN: That's what I thought. 4 MR. ADIN: Okay. 5 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. 6 MR. ADIN: Thank you. 7 MR. BROOKMAN: Required. This is -- 8 MS. WIDDER: Oh, I'm going to clarify 9 that -- 10 MR. BROOKMAN: This is the -- 11 MS. WIDDER: -- in this. 12 MR. BROOKMAN: -- the recommendation 13 from the Working Group for a required label. 14 MS. WIDDER: I'm going to do this. Does 15 that capture it, Lucas? 16 MR. ADIN: I think so. 17 MS. WIDDER: Do you want to add anything 18 else? 19 MR. BROOKMAN: So the new slide reads, 20 "Metric applicability, colon, standard versus 21 label." First bullet, "Pumps are labeled based on 22 the configuration in which they are sold." Sub-

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 273 1 bullet, "Uncontrolled pumps are, arrow, constant 2 load pump energy rating PEI," subscript "CL," sub3 bullet two, "Controlled pumps are, arrow, variable 4 load pump energy rating PEI," subscript, "VL" -- 5 MS. WIDDER: I'm going to switch on you. 6 I'm -- I apologize. Rating is index. 7 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Right. 8 I should have caught that. 9 MS. WIDDER: That's okay. I should 10 have, too. 11 MR. BROOKMAN: The second complete 12 bullet is: "The following information should be 13 required to be included on a pump nameplate." And 14 that is the graphic which we'll print off and make 15 available. 16 Okay. So are we ready to do this? You 17 want to caucus? 18 (Off the record) 19 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Let's just take a 20 few minutes. 21 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: The discussion is 22 whether we ought to have on the label where this

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 274 1 PEI is calculated, the PEI that's -- 2 MR. BROOKMAN: Al. That's okay. 3 MR. HUBER: Sorry. 4 MR. BROOKMAN: No, just talk about it. 5 When would you -- you want to do it now or do you 6 want to -- 7 (Off the record) 8 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Let's take a -- 9 let's take a five-minute break and see when we get 10 back here. 11 (WHEREUPON, a recess was taken.) 12 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Let's resume. 13 Al Huber. 14 MR. HUBER: We resolved our issue. We're 15 fine with that. 16 MR. BROOKMAN: You're fine with 17 what's there. 18 MR. HUBER: Although one, one, -- one 19 manufacturer pointed out we needed to redo the 20 Manufacturer Impact because of all this labeling 21 now that we got to do. 22 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So then I

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 275 1 think we're ready, if everybody's comfortable. 2 We're missing one or two persons, but -- one 3 person, I guess, only. We'll catch him up when he 4 returns. To see if this group is ready now to take 5 a vote to make this slide content a recommendation 6 from the Working Group to ASRAC. So all those in 7 favor? Louis? 8 MR. STARR: Just one last thing. You 9 know, that PEI CL is going to be pretty hard to 10 get a subscript on a label. The numbers are 11 already pretty small, but if you feel confident 12 that you're going to be able to get -- 13 MR. BROOKMAN: So maybe it shouldn't 14 be a sub -- shouldn't be a subscript? 15 MR. STARR: Well, maybe. I don't know. 16 Just something -- It's more the pump guys. They 17 didn't even buy -- 18 MR. BROOKMAN: When -- 19 MS. WIDDER: Underscore. 20 MR. BROOKMAN: For -- 21 MR. ADIN: So for implementation 22 purposes. I mean this would have to be addressed

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 276 1 through rulemaking too. So we would take comments 2 on all this. I mean this is more of a 3 certification and compliance related thing that 4 eventually we will address separately. So do we - 5 - well, I don't have to go that far, but you're 6 sure? 7 MR. BROOKMAN: Jay? 8 MR. SIVIGNY: Jay Sivigny, Flowserve. 9 Just we're doing some really great work on these 10 votes on detailed slides that you're doing on the 11 fly. Can we get these e-mailed tonight for just 12 reference -- 13 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. 14 MR. SIVIGNY: -- purposes? We don't 15 have to have them printed, but I would like 16 records of what we voted on because a lot of it 17 was in the spreadsheet -- 18 MR. ADIN: Yes. 19 MR. SIVIGNY: In the PowerPoints. Okay. 20 MS. WIDDER: Yes. Label requirements. 21 How's that? How about just label requirements? 22 Oh, yes. Recommendations. That's, that's more

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 277 1 accurate. 2 MS. WILLIAMS: I'm also updating the 3 thing we sent out earlier to include all this 4 stuff. So we can send that updated sheet out as 5 well. 6 MR. BROOKMAN: Oh, good. Thank you, 7 Alison. So then I've just confirmed that we're 8 about ready to see if the Working Group wishes to 9 send this forward as a recommendation that would 10 be included in the term sheet. All those in favor 11 of taking this content, which will be sent, and 12 inserting it in the term sheet, please signify by 13 raising your hand and voting aye. Casting my 14 eyes, one member has not voted. Thirteen. We 15 have 13 yeses. And Lucas Adin? 16 MR. ADIN: Abstain. 17 MR. BROOKMAN: And one abstention. 18 Thirteen yeses and one abstention. And actually 19 two abstentions 'cause Steve Rosenstock is an 20 abstention, and one absent, if you're going to be 21 careful. So then you're making a notation? 22 MS. WIDDER: I did.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 278 1 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Oh, thank you. 2 Let's go to the data slide. Why don't you just 3 walk us through what you've got there? 4 MS. WIDDER: Sure. So this is a 5 preliminary list of -- 6 MR. BROOKMAN: And this, of course, 7 is in response -- pardon me for interrupting you. 8 MS. WIDDER: Yeah, no. 9 MR. BROOKMAN: This is in response 10 to the discussion we began yesterday. Joanna 11 raised this. Greg raised it again this morning. 12 Actually I want to address these issues briefly. 13 And she said DOE has some flexibility, but they 14 don't quite know what they're going to do. That's 15 a, kind of a -- anyway. So continue. Actually it 16 just basically said we've done it a bunch of 17 different ways and we'd appreciate a 18 recommendation, I think, is what she said. 19 MR. ADIN: I think what -- right. 20 So we have templates for all these other products. 21 We would use a template for these, presumably. I 22 don't know of any reason why we wouldn't. I think

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 279 1 the question is about which specific data items we 2 would actually be collecting. At a minimum it has 3 to be the rating that is used to determine 4 compliance with the standard. 5 So to the extent there are other things 6 that we want to collect data on, I think what 7 Ashley was indicting is that we're interested in 8 your input and we're happy to consider whatever 9 other information you think is, is needed. 10 MR. BROOKMAN: That's a better way 11 of saying it. Okay. So then, Sarah, walk us 12 through this. 13 MS. WIDDER: Sure. I think this is the 14 correct bifurcation, but let me know if not. I've 15 now separated into necessary elements, as Lucas 16 noted, that would, are more non-negotiable in 17 terms of, of reporting to DOE, and then some 18 additional elements that might be desirable. The 19 necessary elements are the individual model 20 numbers certified under a given basic model. The 21 PEI CL or VL as applicable. So the standard 22 level. The BEP flow rate and head, which would

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 280 1 describe the hydraulic situation that that pump is 2 being rated for. The speed, the rated speed, 3 'cause that will be -- the standard will be a 4 function of speed. And then whether the value is 5 calculated or tested. Those seem like the minimum 6 necessary inputs. I haven't given this a 7 considerable amount of thought, but I think those 8 are the minimum necessary elements to determine 9 compliance of a unit. 10 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel from Xylem. 11 Don't even -- the value, you mean PEI CL or PEI 12 VL. So it's replace value with those, right? 13 Isn't that what you're -- 14 MS. WIDDER: Value? 15 MR. HANDZEL: The last bullet, whether 16 the value is calculated or tested. 17 MS. WIDDER: Oh, whether the -- oh, 18 yeah. Okay. Got it. 19 MR. HANDZEL: The value you're referring 20 to is PEI CL or P--- 21 MS. WIDDER: Yes, yes. Okay. Yep, yep, 22 I got you.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 281 1 MR. HANDZEL: We got it, but -- 2 MS. WIDDER: Yes. We do, but we're 3 trying to be clear for those that are not in this 4 room. 5 MR. HANDZEL: There you go. Sorry I 6 wasn't -- 7 MS. WIDDER: Yep. No, no. Understood. 8 And then additional elements that might be 9 necessary, or might be desirable, could be the 10 input energy to the pump at each load point i. 11 That would be the Pin in our equations, our 12 previous equations. These are just sort of ideas. 13 Full impeller diameter. I listed here pump 14 efficiency at each load point i. You could also 15 do pump efficiency in general. That's just -- 16 It's something that is available in general about 17 pumps. I don't know if there's other things that 18 you would like to add to this list. Yes, Louis. 19 Or remove from the list. 20 MR. STARR: So for things that are 21 tested, you know, to the test point. So like 22 we're, if it has a -- whether it has controls or

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 282 1 motors, all those points that calculate, whether 2 it's PEI CL or VL. So you'd want your load points 3 at 25, 50, 75, 100 percent for your -- I guess it 4 would -- I'm not sure exactly. But anyway, the 5 points that come out, that resulted that are then 6 used in the calculated -- are used to come up with 7 a number. Or was that 40.6? 8 MS. WIDDER: Right. So, so that's -- I 9 tried -- I tried to capture that in this bullet 10 here, the input energy to the pump at each load 11 point i, which would be the 25, 50, 75, 100, or 12 75, 100, and 110 as applicable. 13 The one question that I think you 14 brought up is whether or not it's more helpful to 15 have the input energy to the pump including, for 16 example, pump, the pump shaft input power, plus 17 losses at each of those points, or just the bare 18 shaft input power as measured per 40.6, and then 19 the loses are the separate calculation? 20 I -- I would recommend, Sarah Widder 21 personally, that it be the input power to the pump 22 system because if it's a tested value and, versus

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 283 1 a calculated value, then it's -- it's not an 2 apples-to-apples comparison, but it'll make it 3 more confusing if you have shaft input power for a 4 calculation, but test, you know -- I think I would 5 recommend that it's input power to the pump as, as 6 certified. 7 MR. BROOKMAN: Rob Boteler. 8 MR. BOTELER: Yeah, I just have one, one 9 comment. I have my motor hat on now, pump 10 buddies. But Bullet No. 1, if you -- if you have 11 the individual model numbers are derivatives of 12 your basic model and you have to input those into 13 this database? And that's not how I read it. 14 MS. WIDDER: So DOE will require that we 15 know -- so if you have a, a number of model, you 16 know, product -- oh, sorry. 17 MR. ADIN: Sarah, let me actually 18 clarify that. 19 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. 20 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas -- 21 MR. ADIN: Thanks, Doug. It's safer to 22 say that we don't know exactly how we're going to

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 284 1 do it for these products yet. For almost every 2 other product that DOE regulates, we require 3 reporting a basic model number and individual 4 model number with a few exceptions, depending on 5 the particular implications associated with 6 certifying them. So it's safer to say that we 7 really -- like Ashley was pointing out yesterday, 8 these are details of the certification and 9 compliance process that we still have yet to think 10 more about and figure out. 11 I mean we're willing, obviously, to take 12 input from you all. But I don't know that we can 13 say for certain this is exactly what we would 14 definitely require. I mean I think without 15 question we can say we'd require reporting of the 16 rating that's required to determine if compliance 17 with the standard. That's obvious. But some of 18 these other things we might still have to think 19 about a little bit. 20 MR. HANDZEL: So just to clarify, Lucas. 21 Mark Handzel from Xylem. So for -- for the pump 22 industry, are individual model numbers, are our

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 285 1 basic model numbers? 2 MR. ADIN: That's -- Okay. 3 MR. HANDZEL: So I mean I don't -- 4 that's why you're confusing us saying what are you 5 saying, because they're one in the same for us. 6 MR. ADIN: If they're the same, that 7 makes it simpler for your purposes. It's hard to 8 tell. 9 MS. WIDDER: Then you only list one 10 number. 11 MR. ADIN: Yeah. 12 MR. BARBOUR: Bob Barbour from TACO. 13 Sarah, when we spoke earlier, you had indicated 14 that the full impeller trim pump would be 15 considered the basic model number. Are you now 16 telling us that the individual model numbers that 17 you refer to here are trimmed wheels underneath 18 that? 19 MR. ADIN: Let her answer the question. 20 MS. WIDDER: I think -- I think that's 21 something that we would have to consider, but my 22 general understanding is no.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 286 1 MR. BARBOUR: Then what do you mean by 2 individual model number? 3 MS. WIDDER: I'll give an example 4 for a different piece of equipment that might 5 help. Ashley tried to address this yesterday I 6 think a little bit with like different colors of 7 things or in the case of like refrigeration, 8 commercial refrigeration, sometimes manufacturers 9 will offer a number of different lighting packages 10 and then certify them all under the same basic 11 model, which has the most lighting, but if they 12 sold it with less lighting, that would -- those 13 would be different individual model numbers. So 14 they would have different types of lights that are 15 available. Or something like that. 16 MR. ADIN: Can I make a suggestion? 17 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. 18 MR. ADIN: Since DOE, like we talked 19 about, is going to address all of this through a 20 separate rulemaking process, we'll have to make a 21 specific concrete proposal on how this will work. 22 So at that point you'll have something you can

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 287 1 comment on and give us very distinct feedback on 2 whether it's going to work. I mean I think, at 3 least from my point of view, it's premature to say 4 this is definitely what we want or this is what 5 will work for us because we still have some 6 thinking to do about it, at least, you know, for 7 DOE's side. 8 MS. WIDDER: I think the one thing I 9 will say just real quickly, I deleted the whole 10 individual model number, basic model thing. I 11 think we do want to capture in some way a 12 crosswalk between the nameplate, the information 13 that was on the nameplate that we recommended, 14 which was model number, and this database. So 15 whatever we call that, I think that wants to be 16 there. Model number. Okay. We'll just list that 17 for now in terms of the Working Group 18 recommendation. 19 MR. BROOKMAN: Mark's not ready. Go 20 ahead, Charlie. 21 MR. CAPPELLINO: Charlie Cappellino. How 22 about equipment class? It may be important to be

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 288 1 able -- 2 MR. HANDZEL: Yeah, that's exactly where 3 I was, was headed. 4 MR. CAPPELLINO: Correlate back to -- 5 MR. ADIN: So to that point -- this 6 is Lucas. Sorry. I might be able to -- I'm 7 sorry, Mark. I didn't mean to -- but there's 8 certain basic things that we require on any 9 certification report. And again, I don't -- I 10 can't think of any particular reason why it would 11 be different here. We'll address it through the 12 rulemaking, but things like manufacturer name, 13 equipment class, basic information about the 14 manufacturer and the product being certified. So 15 it's kind of a standard menu of items that would 16 be included here as well. 17 MR. HANDZEL: Obviously we -- Mark 18 Handzel from Xylem. We've supposed tremendous 19 amounts of data on our -- we describe what 20 equipment class it is, which is end-suction frame21 mount, end-suction closed-coupled, which, you 22 know. Then we have our models, okay?

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 289 1 So I agree that's a good addition that 2 Charlie just suggested. Manufacturer's name, we 3 all -- in that database we all put our 4 manufacturer's name. You know, so I think we're, 5 we're pretty close on necessary elements. The 6 only thing I would suggest is I think full 7 impeller diameter needs to be as part of necessary 8 elements, not an additional element. 9 MS. WIDDER: Okay. 10 MR. HANDZEL: Because we said that 11 that is a descriptive, you know, feature of, you 12 know, that PEI value. So I would just suggest 13 that could, add it. 14 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 15 MR. HANDZEL: I'm good. 16 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg Towsley. 17 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg Towsley, Grundfos. 18 Also on the speed, I think you used the term 19 earlier rated speed. 20 MR. MAUER: This is Joanna. I think the 21 speed actually would be covered in the equipment 22 class I don't know that it --

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 290 1 MS. WIDDER: Equipment class is like 2 end-suction closed-coupled, end-suction frame3 mounted, inline, and then the speeds -- 4 MR. ADIN: Well, there are -- 5 MS. WILLIAMS: Technically since a 6 little different standards, there will be 7 different equipment class. Yeah. 8 MR. HUBER: That's right. 9 MS. WIDDER: Right, with the nominal 10 - - although, we may want, as Greg noted, the 11 speed at which the equipment is tested, which 12 would be the rated speed versus the nominal speed. 13 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg. 14 MS. WIDDER: And so this would be 15 the, the rated or tested speed. 16 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg. 17 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg Towsley, Grundfos. I 18 think in the calculator or somewhere within the 19 calculations of the metric we've talked about, you 20 have to put in the speed that you're testing at in 21 there. 22 MS. WIDDER: Right. And correct to

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 291 1 -- and correct to the nominal, yep. 2 MR. TOWSLEY: Right. 3 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas a while back 4 now suggested that maybe what approach would be -- 5 however much you want to do with this listing that 6 Sarah has provided, that specifically, you have 7 another opportunity -- go ahead. 8 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel from 9 Xylem. So this is another recommendation that I 10 think the Working Group would like to make to 11 ASRAC and DOE that they can -- we recommend these 12 things be included in the certification report 13 database. 14 MS. WIDDER: And in particular, I 15 would maybe focus more on the additional elements. 16 Like Lucas mentioned, there's like a menu of, of 17 things that DOE will need to just know information 18 about the pump so that they can determine 19 compliance. And so I would just focus on the 20 things that seem maybe a little but more 21 unnecessary, but beneficial, that we wouldn't do 22 otherwise.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 292 1 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas. 2 MR. ADIN: I -- 3 MR. BROOKMAN: Meg, Meg Waltner. 4 MS. WALTNER: Yeah. So I just -- sort 5 of on the way it's presented with the necessary 6 and additional elements, I wouldn't want it to 7 seem that this Working Group's recommendation or 8 that the additional elements were somehow less 9 important to be included from other elements. So 10 maybe we could just say data to be included and 11 have the list and what we're recommending. 12 MS. WIDDER: Yep. Okay. 13 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Louis. 14 MR. STARR: The other thing is, is I 15 notice you put it on the calculator. You have the 16 input energy, pump speed at each load point. Could 17 the same thing be for the calculated one so that 18 you know how they actually calculated their PEI, 19 or is that going to be evident? In other words, 20 load, lots, numbers to use them for the -- the 21 numbers are actually inputting into the 22 calculation.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 293 1 MS. WIDDER: Into the calculator. 2 MR. STARR: Right. 3 MS. WIDDER: Okay. So in addition 4 to the input energy to the pump, for calculate -- 5 for the calculated value, the shaft horsepower at 6 each load point? 7 MR. STARR: I'm just trying to do -- if 8 you have a tested one, you're getting the tested 9 data that goes in to figure it out. 10 MS. WIDDER: Right. 11 MS. STARR: So on the calculated one, 12 I'd just like the numbers, too, to know -- 13 MS. WIDDER: Right. So it would the 14 same. So what I was trying to say before, but not 15 doing a very good job, was I think it would be 16 most straightforward and clear for everyone using 17 the data if we have the same data available for 18 tested versus calculated. And so it just means 19 that the same data would be available, but for the 20 calculated case, it would be tested, shaft input 21 power plus motor loss at that point. Yeah. Okay. 22 MR. BROOKMAN: Joanna.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 294 1 MS. MAUER: Just a question for other 2 folks. Having pressure at the different load 3 points useful? Well, flow and head at BEP. So I 4 guess my question is, is it useful to have at each 5 load point so you can calculate flow, right? 6 MS. WIDDER: Right. 7 MS. MAUER: And you calculate flow at 8 those points, is it helpful to have -- 9 MS. WILLIAMS: You can calculate the 10 head too with the assumed system curve, right? 11 MS. WIDDER: But not for a constant 12 load. 13 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber. 14 MS. WIDDER: Like you can get the 15 pump curve. You could calculate it for the system 16 curve, the variable load. I mean honestly if you 17 need that level of detail, you might as well get a 18 pump curve probably. But -- 19 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis, please. 20 MR. STARR: Wouldn't DOE first need the 21 pump curve to verify the different formats, or not 22 really?

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 295 1 MS. WIDDER: I think, you know, it's 2 not clear what DOE will do in terms of 3 enforcement, but the DOE test procedure requires 4 each pump be tested per 40.6 to determine the 5 curve. So that might be an appropriate place to 6 start. 7 MR. BROOKMAN: So I would note that 8 we keep making contributions and enhancements to 9 this list. Mark Handzel. 10 MR. HANDZEL: From a -- going back 11 to some of the things I brought up yesterday. We 12 talked about just trying to keep this list more to 13 a minimum so it's not an onerous task for the 14 manufacturers to keep it up to date. But I would 15 -- I would just suggest the last two bullets be 16 deleted. You know, they're, they're not needed. 17 They're part of the calculation that gets us to 18 PEI values, but I don't see a reason why we have 19 to put them in the database. 20 MR. BROOKMAN: So those two are 21 input energy to the pump at each load point and 22 pump efficiency at each load point.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 296 1 MR. HANDZEL: And all that -- you 2 know, the pump efficiency at each load point, 3 again, that's performance curve data. It's 4 available on the performance curve. You know, so 5 why is it needed? And the input energy, I don't - 6 - I don't know why any -- you know, what would 7 anybody do with the input energy if we were 8 required to put it on, in the database? It's 9 again part of the calculation, but what's somebody 10 going to do with it? 11 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis Starr. 12 MR. STARR: So other points that are 13 different operating points. So what's assumed in 14 the calculator. So custom utility programs. 15 MR. HANDZEL: Yeah, but we're not 16 asking any -- I mean no one's going to go to this 17 database to come up with our performance data. 18 They're going to go look at our curve. I mean so 19 -- and I think your, your metric for your rebate 20 purposes is going to be based on the PEI value, 21 you know, with gold, silver, platinum levels type 22 thing. So again, don't, don't overburden us if

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 297 1 possible. 2 MR. STARR: Well, that's one way of 3 doing it, but the custom programs would be more 4 detailed. In other words, less customer, less the 5 rebates. You know, they just assume very 6 conservative numbers. 7 And so the other part, though, just to 8 kind of understand the operation of the equipment 9 in general and where there might be opportunities 10 to design utility programs too. So having that 11 information kind of gets you a lot of information 12 about -- and keep in mind, there's more than one 13 utility. There's 4,000. So each one of them does 14 it a little differently. 15 And so the information that they have is 16 how they design their utility programs. But the 17 other part is to understand how they're coming up 18 with those values. Those were the same values 19 that DOE will need to know in order to calculate 20 compliance. They'll have to know those, that 21 information. I mean that's what you're all going 22 back and doing right now in theory. Well, except

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 298 1 it's calculated. 2 MR. HANDZEL: So Mark Handzel from 3 Xylem. I thought this was more of what's in the 4 database. This wasn't meant to be a calculator, 5 these -- you know, as Sarah said, the calculator 6 was just there for our convenience, to make it 7 easy for us to, to come up with these values, not 8 to, you know -- I guess that's where I'm 9 struggling. You know, Louis, how are you -- how 10 is, you know, an energy utility going to use our 11 25 or our 75 percent load efficiency? I just 12 don't see them doing it. 13 MR. STARR: Well, if their load most of 14 the time runs at 25 and 50 percent instead of, you 15 know, an equally weighted average time, that, 16 that's how you would have a custom program. So 17 you could actually use some of the input 18 information on how, how the -- especially on our 19 real water to wire test, you could actually get 20 some, dial in some actual energy savings based on 21 some real, real world information that would be 22 helpful, and you could stick that into a

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 299 1 calculator that would be a DEM calculator. I 2 mean, but those -- 3 MR. HANDZEL: I mean you could come 4 up with 10,000 scenarios, but I just got to 5 question if someone's really going to do that. I 6 just, you know, why burden us to put all that 7 stuff in when the chances of it being used are 8 very minimal? 9 MR. STARR: Well, maybe Tom can talk 10 about it, but they at the power council has a VFD 11 calculator for giving rebates on VFDs. And you 12 put in your load profile and so the part of your 13 bins of hours that you have and then how much 14 power you're using at those bins. And that's what 15 that information would provide. So it has a lot 16 of opportunity. To me, it's an opportunity for 17 everybody. It's an opportunity for us to give you 18 a rebate and also an opportunity for you to get a 19 rebate. 20 MR. BROOKMAN: Meg Waltner. 21 MS. WALTNER: Question to Louis and Tom. 22 Do you guys need this data to be certified by, to

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 300 1 DOE in order to use it in your programs? For 2 instance, so Mark, I hear you saying this data is 3 in our curves. Why can't you just look there? But 4 is what you guys really need, data that's 5 certified to DOE and that's what, you know, the 6 PUCs will -- 7 MR. ECKMAN: Well, it depends on how 8 picky the regulators are. In California I suspect 9 they're picky enough to say, yeah, we'd really 10 trust it if it had been certified to DOE rather 11 than just informally sent to us via e-mail or 12 something so. 13 MR. BROOKMAN: That was Tom Eckman. 14 MR. ECKMAN: But that's an important 15 aspect. But I think, as Louis points out, to the 16 extent that the data that's available there can be 17 used to compute savings or estimate savings, then 18 it's useful to have in a public domain for us to 19 take advantage of 'cause we can download the 20 dataset and use that as it gets updated, use that 21 to determine the magnitude of the savings, which 22 turn into the magnitude of the money.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 301 1 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary Fernstrom. 2 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. A decade 3 ago we used manufacturer specifications. These 4 days, increasingly the PUC is wanting us to use 5 creditable data that has been reported. I'm not - 6 - I'm sorry. I'm not suggesting that manufacturer 7 data is not creditable. 8 MR. ECKMAN: Al said the marketing guys 9 are going to get ahold of this. So we got to be 10 careful. 11 MR. FERNSTROM: Data that has been 12 reported to some government entity for which the 13 reporter is responsible for its correctness. 14 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. What do you want 15 to do with this list? You want to modify it? You 16 want to leave it intact? Louis, Louis Starr. 17 MR. STARR: You know, if you think about 18 this, the other aspect of it is, is for other pump 19 guys and other manufacturers, don't you want to 20 know what you're competition's saying that the 21 performance is to see whether you think those 22 numbers are realistic? And if a pump manufacturer

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 302 1 out there is not actually testing anything, he's 2 doing it all calculated, wouldn't you want to know 3 how he's coming up with these numbers? Because 4 it's not usually DOE goes out and chases after 5 them that they're going to catch them. There's no 6 forum. So this is a way for you to actually see 7 if you really trust your other people that are 8 maybe not aboveboard. 9 MR. BROOKMAN: Joanna. 10 MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer. So I just 11 wanted to -- it's that bullet point, input energy 12 to the pump at each load point that I've kind of 13 been referring to this whole time in terms of 14 additional information that I think would be 15 useful to utility programs. And I defer to Tom 16 and Gary, but I think from what I've heard from 17 them, it would be useful to utilities to know 18 power. You know, not just the PEI, but what the 19 power consumption is at different load points that 20 are, you know, that you will be measuring and will 21 be part of the PEI calculation. 22 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 303 1 MR. HUBER: Well, I don't really think 2 you need both. You got pump efficiency at each 3 load. Then you've got input power at each load. 4 So I don't think you need both. I mean you 5 certainly don't need both. 6 MS. WIDDER: This is just a preliminary 7 list. 8 MR. HUBER: So -- 9 MR. BROOKMAN: Sarah, which one would be 10 most descriptive? 11 MS. WIDDER: I think input energy to the 12 pump at each load point would be more appropriate. 13 It would be easier to use in terms of calculating 14 energy use and savings, and it's more directly 15 related to the PEI. 16 MR. FERNSTROM: This -- this is Gary. So 17 Sarah, wouldn't the term of art, be input power, 18 energy as a function of time? 19 MS. WIDDER: Okay. Yes. 20 MR. FERNSTROM: Thank you. It really 21 frustrates me that the Department of Energy gets 22 these two things mixed up all the time.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 304 1 MS. WIDDER: I will remind you that I 2 made this list over lunch, Gary. 3 MR. BROOKMAN: Mark Handzel. 4 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel from Xylem. 5 So I think, you know, that's a great compromise. I 6 think we can be okay with it. But I want to come 7 back to, you know, Sarah, you, you I think made 8 the comment that -- well, you were kind of 9 ambivalent about impeller trims. And I just again 10 want to be clear that from our perspective, we're 11 not dealing with trims. We're doing model numbers 12 with full impeller diameters and that's all we're 13 going to put in the database. 14 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. I didn't mean to 15 indicate that I was ambivalent about that. The 16 certification will be based on the full runner 17 impeller, and that diameter as we've noted here 18 would be reported along with all the other 19 relevant certification information. 20 MR. HANDZEL: All right. Thank you. 21 MR. BROOKMAN: Did you capture the last 22 endorsement that -- which is input power to the

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 305 1 pump at each load point, which -- did you hear 2 her? She thought that would be most, the most 3 descriptive. I have several individuals over here 4 nodding their heads in agreement. Charlie 5 Cappellino. 6 MR. CAPPELLINO: So I believe we have 7 some multistage product that's being regulated? So 8 is -- 9 MS. WIDDER: If you had a multistage 10 motor. Oh, multistage pump, yes. 11 MR. CAPPELLINO: Multistage pump. 12 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. 13 MR. CAPPELLINO: So is the number 14 stages, is that to be defined here or is that to 15 be defined in the test procedure itself, numbers? 16 MS. WIDDER: Yep. That's -- 17 MR. ADIN: Normally if there's a 18 particular data element that's only applicable to 19 one type of product, then that's how you would 20 specify it. And, right. That's how we do it for 21 other products, if you're going to do it that way. 22 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you, Lucas.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 306 1 MS. WILLIAMS: This is -- I'm not no -- 2 I mean I think we had previously discussed that 3 for testing and rating there would just be a 4 single, like a three or nine stage configuration 5 that was used. I think we -- yeah. We never -- 6 I'm just looking through the summary and it's not 7 actually specified in anything that you guys have 8 voted on. So I don't know if you want to -- I 9 don't see it. So I just wanted to note that in 10 case you wanted to make a recommendation, but it's 11 not necessary. We can -- 12 MS. WIDDER: Well, and the other thing 13 given that, is since the certification would be 14 based on a fixed number of stages, it may be 15 duplicative to also report it in the certification 16 database. Well, it certainly will be defined in 17 the test procedure. 18 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah, I mean there is an 19 exception I think in the EU; whereas if you didn't 20 offer a model with that number of stages, you had 21 to report with the next fewer or something. So 22 maybe it is still relevant in the case that we

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 307 1 need to make some sort of clause like that. I'm 2 not sure. 3 MS. WIDDER: Oh, yeah. Mm-hm. 4 MR. BROOKMAN: Where are we with this 5 list? I thought we -- Mark, you, it looks like 6 you're doing a consultation. 7 MR. HANDZEL: Well, Greg and I are just 8 talking about, as the two primary guys here who 9 make those two products that we're talking about. 10 And so instead of saying number of stages, you 11 know, we'd like to specify the stages, but we -- 12 it's going to have to be here and somewhere else 13 too because we kind of missed that in the, in the 14 votes that we did yesterday where we, you know, 15 basically set the PER value. We should have set 16 it for that number of stages for these two 17 products as well. So we may need to do some 18 amending of what we voted on yesterday. 19 MR. BROOKMAN: So do you know where that 20 -- so that's in the PEI -- go ahead, Greg. 21 MR. TOWSLEY: Yeah, Greg Towsley, 22 Grundfos. Yeah, I don't know that we could have

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 308 1 done anything before. Now is the time. Since we 2 have the metric approved and agreed upon, now is 3 the time, I think. Anyway, but it has to be 4 separate from the labeling discussion we have. So 5 I think what Sarah's doing here is the right 6 thing. But, but -- yeah. But the label still has 7 number of stages on there. 8 MS. WIDDER: Yes. 9 MR. BROOKMAN: I'm going to make a note 10 about that and then see if we can come to closure. 11 Okay. 12 MS. WIDDER: Is it the same number of 13 stages? What are we -- 14 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah, that's my 15 understanding. I can look it up real quick if you 16 want. 17 MR. BROOKMAN: Someone -- so we've -- 18 while Alison's looking this up, someone explain 19 for the record what we're doing with, with this 20 stage stuff. I didn't follow that. Mark Handzel. 21 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel from Xylem. 22 So these particular pumps are made with -- you can

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 309 1 add impellers to them so that one impeller's 2 pumping into another one. So they're staged 3 pumps. 4 MR. BROOKMAN: Oh. 5 MR. HANDZEL: Okay? So they're, they're 6 a variation of all the other pumps that are single 7 stage pumps. So we basically followed the EU 8 process where they specified a number of stages 9 for reporting data and doing the analysis, okay? 10 So that's all we're wanting to do, is clarify in 11 our recommendation that we're, you know, going 12 forward, that's the same thing we want to do with 13 the, the way the rule is structured and the way 14 the data, database is structured. 15 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 16 MR. HANDZEL: Okay? So we -- so the 17 number of stages for those two models is fixed. 18 MR. BROOKMAN: And in the PER, PEI -- 19 MR. HANDZEL: We've reported based on 20 the fixed number of stages, regardless of the 21 number of stages that are purchased by a customer. 22 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah. So I think he

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 310 1 has it right. It would be part of the 2 certification test procedure more. So when you're 3 rating those pumps, the model you're rating would 4 be -- 5 MS. WIDDER: Right. And will you read 6 me the caveat words? 7 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah, so. And also to 8 confirm is, as you have it, three stage for RSV 9 and nine stages for submersible, the caveat the EU 10 uses is if this number of stages is not offered 11 within a specific product range, the next higher 12 number of stages is to be chosen for testing. 13 MR. HANDZEL: And what were the stage 14 counts? Was it three -- 15 MS. WILLIAMS: It's three and nine. 16 MR. HANDZEL: Three and nine? 17 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah. 18 MR. HANDZEL: Okay. 19 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary Fernstrom. 20 MR. FERNSTROM: So this -- this is Gary. 21 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary, but before, let's 22 let Al follow on.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 311 1 MR. HUBER: I wanted to ask you, and I 2 didn't participate in that part because we don't 3 make that pump, but did we -- what did you ask for 4 when we reported it back? 5 MS. WILLIAMS: We asked for these. 6 MR. HUBER: Three and nine. 7 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah. 8 MR. HUBER: Well, then that's what we 9 want to do. 10 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary, please. 11 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay. So this is Gary. 12 This begs the same kind of question I had about 13 impeller trimming. What energy efficiency 14 performance consequence does adding or removing 15 stages from these fixed values have? 16 MR. HANDZEL: So every stage you add 17 adds additional horsepower requirement, okay, 18 because it's another impeller, you know, needing 19 energy to push water. 20 MR. FERNSTROM: And vice versa. 21 MR. HANDZEL: And vice versa, right. 22 MR. FERNSTROM: How does that

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 312 1 affect the efficiency? In other words, I'm going 2 to get some efficiency number based on three and 3 nine stages, but -- 4 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg Case. 5 MR. CASE: Okay. So with these, these 6 pumps, there's some fixed losses in the inlet and 7 in the column. So generally the efficiency goes 8 up. If you had one stage, your efficiency might 9 be lower. If you got up to three stages, the 10 efficiency would level off and stabilize for 11 multiple stages after that. And it could be, you 12 know, for some vertical turbine submersibles, they 13 could be multiple stages before you got to that 14 efficiency level. 15 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay. Thank you, Greg. 16 You didn't cover this in the class that I took 17 from you. 18 MR. HANDZEL: And Gary -- Mark Handzel 19 from Xylem. You know, it's a generalization that 20 most of our customers don't worry about. Okay? As 21 long as they know that they have the right size 22 motor to cover all the impellers they're going to

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 313 1 put on that shaft, they're good. 2 MR. BROOKMAN: Interesting. Okay. Read 3 what you've got there, Sarah. 4 MS. WIDDER: Certification for RSV and 5 VTS pumps shall be based on testing with 6 the following number of stages: RSV - 3 stages, 7 VTS - 9 stages, unless a model is not available 8 with that specific number of stages in the given 9 scope, in which case the model will be tested and 10 certified with the next higher number of stages. 11 Which is consistent -- 12 MR. BROOKMAN: New language? 13 MS. WIDDER: Yes. Well, pretty close. 14 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. 15 MS. WIDDER: Paraphrased a bit. 16 MR. BROOKMAN: Doug Potts. 17 MR. POTTS: Doug Potts. I know we 18 talked about this before. It was just a couple 19 months ago. So I'm trying to remember. Is there 20 a possibility of a loophole here where if you're 21 selling a pump with two stages, that you could 22 sell to, you know, the two stages that have not

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 314 1 been certified, or is it -- or are we stating 2 somewhere that this pump model, we tested it at 3 three stages, it's certified at three stages, so 4 the bowls that we're selling, whether it's two, 5 four, five stages, are also from that certified 6 model? 7 MR. BROOKMAN: Mark Handzel. 8 MR. POTTS: Does that need to be 9 clarified? 10 MR. HANDZEL: Because we're going to 11 have to report a model. The bowls will be 12 specific to that model. Yeah. So it's, it's -- I 13 don't think there's a loophole. Okay? 14 MR. HUBER: Al Huber. It's the same 15 concept as trimming, basically. 16 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Do you wish to -- 17 this is a subordinate slide. The previous slide, 18 did we vote on that? 19 MS. WIDDER: No, but they're unrelated. 20 So let's stay here for a moment. 21 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Do you think that 22 we've covered this conceptually?

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 315 1 MS. WIDDER: I think so. I think we 2 should vote on it if there's a consensus. 3 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So the question 4 is, do you wish to send -- this is a 5 recommendation -- to ASRAC from the Working Group? 6 I see nods generally. Okay. So let's take an 7 actual vote. All those in favor of accepting the 8 language which Sarah just read, please signify by 9 raising your hands. So as I look around the room, 10 every single member has voted yes. And that means 11 that that's 14 yeses, and one abstention, and one 12 absent. Let's just go by stages. 13 MS. WIDDER: Okay. So now we can return 14 to the certification. 15 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. 16 MS. WIDDER: Reports and database. And 17 we will request the number of stages because of 18 that, except for pumps that don't, aren't offered 19 in a three or nine stage configuration. 20 MR. BROOKMAN: Mark Handzel. 21 MR. HANDZEL: So -- Mark Handzel from 22 Xylem. So Sarah, do we want to -- instead of

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 316 1 saying number of stages, do we want to state the 2 same thing we did on the previous one, what those 3 number of stages are for the VTS and the RSV? I 4 mean -- 5 MS. WIDDER: In the certification 6 report? 7 MR. HANDZEL: Well, in the database and 8 in the certification report. Yeah, I think so. 9 Yeah, we don't want to make it -- right. We don't 10 want them to think it's an option. It has to 11 still follow the logic we just defined in the 12 previous slide. 13 MS. WIDDER: Okay. All right. I will 14 include that, that note here. Like this. How's 15 the best way to capture this? How about like 16 this? 17 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg Towsley, Grundfos. 18 Number of stages tested? 19 MS. WIDDER: Well, does that number of 20 stages tested, does that really resolve the issue 21 that Mark was bringing up about they'll still be 22 interpretation of flexibility? I mean I don't

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 317 1 know. Manufacturers are filling this out. So -- 2 MS. WILLIAMS: I mean the requirements 3 here -- the database is not really requirements. 4 It's just -- 5 MS. WIDDER: No, there's a full test 6 procedure. 7 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah, like the number of 8 stages will be specific elsewhere and this is just 9 you reporting. So presumably if there were 10 verification, DOE would check to see if you 11 reported the appropriate number of stages. 12 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel from Xylem. 13 So we just went through this whole discussion of 14 why all the advocates wanted input power on there. 15 So if someone's going to be looking at this thing 16 trying to use it for data, they got to know that. 17 That's my only point, right? So I would think 18 that side of the table would want it on there. So 19

-- 20 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas. 21 MS. WILLIAMS: I wasn't suggesting 22 taking out stating what number it is. I was just

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 318 1 questioning whether we needed the supplemental in 2 text. 3 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg Case. 4 MR. TOWSLEY: I believe you do need it 5 because you're going to get head values that may 6 not make any sense at all. And if you don't know 7 what number of stages they reported and they 8 report some different number of stages, you're 9 going to get some really strange numbers. We did 10 that when we were, when we were trying to go 11 through this data. We got all kinds of strange 12 numbers reported. 13 MS. WILLIAMS: So I absolutely agree you 14 should have the number of stages. Sorry. I was 15 just wondering whether that sub-bullet was needed. 16 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. Everyone, we're just 17 questioning. I think everyone agrees that we 18 should have numbers of stages tested and it will 19 be three or nine in most cases. And the question 20 is, do we need this additional clarification to 21 remind folks that it's three or nine in most 22 cases? Or will that -- is it sufficient to have

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 319 1 that information in the test procedure? Okay. 2 Great. 3 MR. BROOKMAN: So I heard one mumble 4 test procedure. That is to say, that would be 5 sufficient. Are we all comfortable with that? I'm 6 seeing a lot of heads saying yes. Yes, Greg? Tom 7 says list the number of stages that are tested. 8 MR. CASE: I would -- I would agree with 9 that, that -- 10 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 11 MR. CASE: There's going to be -- there 12 was a lot of confusion on this every time we did a 13 survey. I mean it, we got numbers that made no 14 sense until we found out how many stages were 15 actually tested. 16 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Okay. Okay. So 17 then I thought we were about to close on this. Are 18 you ready? I thought the top items in the list 19 were largely not controversial and we've gone 20 through them, many of which are required by DOE. 21 They're the standard form of things. 22 And then this last one here, input power

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 320 1 to the pump at each load point, I thought that was 2 a descriptor that the group had arrived at 3 thinking was sensible and kind of hit a middle 4 point. That's what -- that's my interpretation. 5 This side of the room seemed like they were 6 comfortable with that. So I'm wondering if we're 7 now comfortable -- 8 MR. HANDZEL: Still not include it, but 9 yeah, if people feel strongly. We have it. We 10 can put it in if they want it. 11 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. I thought -- I 12 thought they made their case for why they wanted 13 to have it and how it would be useful to utility 14 programs. So are we ready to -- ready to call the 15 question on this one? Yes? Okay. All those -- 16 MR. HANDZEL: I'm sorry. But shouldn't 17 we -- so do we want to change the heading on this 18 one again, Sarah, just to say that, you know, 19 yeah, this is a recommendation again? 20 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. Thank you, Mark. 21 And these its -- since we've met -- 22 since we've edited them significantly, are, this

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 321 1 slide is recommended data to be included in the 2 certification report/database and they include the 3 following bullets: Manufacturer name; model 4 number(s); equipment class PEI, subscript CL, PEI 5 VL, as applicable; BEP flow rate and head rated 6 speed; number of stages tested, full impeller 7 diameter; whether the PEI CL or PEI VL is 8 calculated or tested; and finally, input power to 9 the pump at each load point. Okay. 10 All those in favor of accepting this as 11 a recommendation from the Working Group to ASRAC, 12 please signify by raising your hand. So as I look 13 around the room, every single member -- we have 14 one person who did not vote for -- 15 MR. ADIN: Abstain. 16 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas Adin abstains. So 17 that's 13 yeses, 2 abstentions, and 1 absent. 18 Okay. What else? Alison, you've, you've been 19 making changes to the term sheet as we've been 20 going along here? 21 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. It's all in there. 22 MR. BROOKMAN: It's all in there?

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 322 1 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. 2 MR. BROOKMAN: So I'm -- I think the 3 term sheets -- go ahead, Meg. The term sheet is 4 substantive and while we've gone over all this 5 ground in considerable detail, over the span of 6 now six plus meetings, I want to make sure we're 7 fresh when we take it up. I don't want tired eyes 8 and droopiness affecting our ability to seriously 9 consider what you're going to recommend. So I'm 10 going to suggest we don't do that now. It's 4, 11 almost 4:40. And, but maybe there's something 12 else we can do. Meg Waltner? 13 MS. WALTNER: Yes. There is one thing 14 on the term sheet that I thought would be useful 15 to go over today. 16 MR. BROOKMAN: Mm-hm. 17 MS. WALTNER: And that was the sort of 18 schedule and language around the follow-on 19 rulemakings for circulators and pool pumps. 20 MR. BROOKMAN: Uh-huh. 21 MS. WALTNER: The language is a little 22 unclear in the way it's written in the term sheet

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 323 1 currently, and I think not necessarily consistent 2 with the conversations we had earlier. 3 Specifically we say that we want a second 4 negotiation with the term sheet by the end of this 5 year and it sounds like we've discussed having 6 sort of a private sidebar negotiation with a 7 different anticipated -- 8 MR. BROOKMAN: And let me note what -- 9 the version you have there was before we had that 10 conversation. 11 MS. WILLIAMS: It was strictly off the 12 slides from the original vote. 13 MR. BROOKMAN: Correct. 14 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah. You guys can 15 certainly modify it and we'll document it. 16 MR. BROOKMAN: So do you understand the 17 sequence here? 18 MS. WALTNER: I do, and my question -- I 19 mean have you modified that? 20 MS. WILLIAMS: No, no, no. 21 MS. WALTNER: Yeah. 22 Ms. MAUER: So I'm just suggesting that

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 324 1 we have a conversation about that today. 2 MR. BROOKMAN: And I've written down 3 some words here, by the way, to accomplish that 4 objection, but Mark, go ahead. 5 MR. HANDZEL: So this group really 6 isn't empowered to speak on behalf of all the 7 circulator manufacturers. So I mean I think we 8 really, you know, we were anticipating having a 9 discussion on this at the Hydraulic Institute 10 Circulator Committee meeting next week. 11 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. 12 MR. HANDZEL: You know, so I would 13 suggest that we still stick with the verbiage that 14 we agreed upon when we decided to take pool pumps 15 and circulators off of the scope of what we were 16 trying to do here. And just, you know, we outline 17 some other provisions, but I, I'm not comfortable 18 saying the industry fully agrees with them because 19 I'm not representing all the circulator 20 manufacturers. So that's -- 21 MR. BROOKMAN: Well, I was thinking 22 that -- I'm not attached to this -- that we could

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 325 1 simply say in discussion a proposed process was 2 put forward. And, because that, then, right? And 3 also the intent. The intent of the members 4 present. Yeah. So, and it would be something 5 like that the -- well, it'd be something like the 6 proposed process was the manufacturers' caucus 7 requested that the energy efficiency advocates' 8 caucus send a proposal, and then the manufacturers 9 caucus and their members, and the circular 10 committee, perhaps, would consider that in their 11 October HI meeting. 12 And then they would respond and maybe 13 there would be a little back and forth or 14 something between those two caucuses, and then 15 with the intention that the HI group would in 16 their February meeting continue to consider that 17 proposal and see where they end up. And, and as 18 necessary or useful, they'd be consulting with DOE 19 or maybe the analysts to make sure they're on 20 track. And that's the guts of the proposal. 21 MR. HANDZEL: The way you described 22 that, that's fine. I just want to make sure that

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 326 1 we weren't committing to go ahead with the process 2 until we had all these exchanges and we made sure 3 that our side was good and your side was good. So 4 I mean it's just we're not committing to do it. 5 We're saying we're going to work together and try 6 to work it out. Right. And we owe you an answer 7 then. And yeah. 8 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Maybe that's 9 all we need, that right there. Meg Waltner. 10 MS. WALTNER: Right. So I agree with 11 all that, but I think part of what we agreed on 12 previously was that we were recommending a follow13 on rulemaking on these products, and I think that 14 we specifically want to say, and it says this, but 15 we're saying a negotiated rulemaking currently in 16 the term sheet. I think we just want to say we 17 recommend that DOE undertake follow-on rulemakings 18 for circulators and pool pumps. 19 And in terms of dates to put to those, 20 my personal recommendation would be a proposal for 21 a NOPR on circulators by July 2015 and initiating 22 a rulemaking for pool pumps by the end of this

### Capital Reporting Company

Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-18-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 327 1 year, which could mean an RFI. It could mean a 2 TSD. The form is uncertain. 3 MR. BROOKMAN: That last element I 4 believe is consistent with Tom's -- there could be 5 several mechanisms that indicated that DOE intends 6 to pursue this in some form. 7 MR. HUBER: I think what I had heard 8 earlier was essentially providing a public 9 notification that DOE had an intent to commence 10 rulemaking on those and an RFI may very well be an 11 appropriate way to do that. It just depends on 12 what we think we need to get started. 13 MR. ECKMAN: Yeah. 14 MR. ADIN: A Request for 15 Information. 16 MR. BROOKMAN: So Meg just put a 17 specific proposal on the table. Which, the date 18 for the circulator pumps NOPR was what? 19 MS. WALTNER: July 2015. 20 MR. BROOKMAN: July 2015 for a NOPR 21 for circulator pumps. 22 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel. So

### Capital Reporting Company

Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-18-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 328 1 Lucas, I thought you pretty much told us when we 2 did the delay and when we agreed on what we were 3 doing with circulators and pool pumps, that you 4 could not commit to anything until you had 5 guidance from your superiors on, that we were 6 going to pursue, you know, a NOPR. So, so I mean, 7 are you okay with our proposal? 8 MR. ADIN: So, I mean what would 9 probably make us feel more comfortable is I don't 10 necessarily have a problem putting a date in there 11 as long as we acknowledge that it's subject to 12 availability of DOE resources. So at the moment, 13 you know, I don't have a reason to say we 14 definitely couldn't do it, but I want to 15 acknowledge that, you know, we do have resource 16 constraints. So -- 17 MR. BROOKMAN: And you're not in a 18 position to -- 19 MR. ADIN: We'll do our best. I'm 20 sorry? 21 MR. BROOKMAN: You're not in a 22 position to comment either way.

### Capital Reporting Company

Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-18-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 329 1 MR. ADIN: Not at the moment, but, 2 you know, taking into consideration what the group 3 here is recommending, and we can go back to -- I 4 can go back to my side and say, look, this is what 5 the group really wants to do. Let's see what we 6 can do and we'll do our best. I think that's 7 really what we'd be willing to commit to. 8 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. 9 MS. WILLIAMS: This is Alison. The only 10 thing I wanted to clarify is what's in the term 11 sheet now from the previous vote. Is that it 12 would be an ASRAC-approved negotiation? And it 13 sounds like maybe that is no longer the proposal. 14 So I just wanted to clarify -- 15 MR. BROOKMAN: Good point. 16 MS. WILLIAMS: -- what the actual 17 proposal is. 18 MR. BROOKMAN: That's a good point. 19 It's 'cause Meg's suggesting a NOPR by -- 20 MS. WALTNER: Right. So I think from 21 the discussion earlier, it sounded like on 22 circulators we don't need an ASRAC, or at least at

### Capital Reporting Company

Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-18-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 330 1 this point our thinking is we don't need an ASRAC 2 rulemaking. 3 MR. BROOKMAN: That's also logical 4 if, as was described, that little process back and 5 forth -- 6 MR. HANDZEL: If it works. 7 MR. HUBER: If it works and it might not 8 work. So that's, you know. We're assuming it's 9 going to, but we don't know that. So I don't want 10 to base a recommendation with a timetable on 11 something we don't know. We've not seen a 12 proposal from you yet, so we don't know what it 13 says. I mean you could ask for the moon. We 14 don't know. 15 MS. WIDDER: Well, I'll note that 16 the current approval, or the current proposal 17 that's approved right now has a timeline. I mean 18 it says ASRAC negotiation by the end of the year. 19 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. 20 MS. WIDDER: And so the group could 21 vote to do any number of things, but I'm with Meg 22 that it seems as though that's not the preferred

### Capital Reporting Company

Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-18-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 331 1 path, at least as an initial attempt. 2 MS. WALTNER: And we could always -- we 3 have private discussions and decide we want to 4 come back to a negotiated process, we could always 5 later recommend an ASRAC process. But I think, 6 you know, it doesn't sound like that's what we're 7 recommending currently. 8 MR. BROOKMAN: Let me just -- 9 MR. HUBER: If we don't need it, we 10 don't need it, but we don't know. 11 MR. BROOKMAN: And I would -- I 12 would add as your mediator that if there are 13 proposals going back and forth, then we might set 14 a world's record for a negotiated rulemaking. 15 Alison, you want to comment? 16 MS. WILLIAMS: I will just comment that, 17 I mean just in terms of timeline, I think if it's 18 not an ASRAC-approved negotiation and we really 19 know specifically what would happen statutorily, 20 but we would not be providing analytical support 21 throughout your discussions back and forth, right, 22 because it wouldn't be an authorized. So I just

### Capital Reporting Company

Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-18-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 332 1 wanted to make that clear in terms of timeline, 2 so. 3 MR. ADIN: Yes, I agree with Alison. 4 Thank you for clarifying. 5 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas Adin. Now 6 Joanna. 7 MS. MAUER: So in the past DOE has 8 perhaps more informally provided analytical 9 support to private negotiations. And I know that 10 we would have to perhaps specifically request that 11 for, but it seems like kind of an intermediate 12 option where it's not, certainly not a, not formal 13 like in this process, but something to aid private 14 negotiations. 15 MR. ADIN: So I've never been 16 involved in that personally. So I can't speak to 17 that, but it's something I'm happy to look into. 18 MS. WILLIAMS: And I'll just add. I 19 think sometimes we do post spreadsheets to support 20 people talking. But I mean, the time -- I don't 21 know that the timelines of those are ever 22 guaranteed. They're just sort of like if we

### Capital Reporting Company

Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-18-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 333 1 happen to be working on them, we can post them for 2 your use. But I mean, again, we could still 3 check, but that's the only thing I'm aware of that 4 we've done previously. 5 MR. BROOKMAN: So I'd like to propose as 6 we're getting near the end of the day that we 7 defer on this decision, not try to decide this 8 right now, 'cause I think everybody's a little 9 tired. 10 MR. HANDZEL: Yeah, Mark Handzel from - - 11 I think it would be good for us to let us talk 12 about it, but I mean obviously our -- we know we 13 made the agreement. We're good for the agreement. 14 We want to work on it, but we're just concerned 15 about being locked in on dates and NOPRs and those 16 kind of things. So I think, you know, how can we 17 define this better? 18 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. 19 MR. HANDZEL: And let's, let's think 20 about that in the morning. 21 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah, so let's think about 22 it. Let's sleep on it. And then tomorrow we'll

### Capital Reporting Company

Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-18-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 334 1 take it up. Gary, please. 2 MR. FERNSTROM: Well, this is Gary. One 3 last thought. We talked about private negotiation 4 with the idea of expediting the whole thing. If 5 DOE analytical support is a factor in how quickly 6 we can move, you know, maybe we're going to need 7 to take an organizational forum that includes DOE 8 analytical supports so we have that as we go 9 along. 10 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. That's a good 11 point. Okay. We covered a lot of ground today. 12 I'm wondering if there's anything else we should 13 try and cover in the remaining ten minutes because 14 -- Bob Barbour, questions? 15 MR. BARBOUR: Bob Barbour from TACO. You 16 said you were going to talk about sampling sizes? 17 MR. BROOKMAN: Oh. 18 MR. BARBOUR: You never got into that. 19 MS. WILLIAMS: I think we should hold, 20 further the discussion 'til tomorrow, if at all. 21 MS. WIDDER: Yeah, I would prefer 22 not to get into that at this point.

### Capital Reporting Company

Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-18-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 335 1 MR. BARBOUR: Make sure -- 2 MS. WIDDER: At this -- today is ten - - 3 yeah, okay. 4 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. I said that -- it's 5 on my list for tomorrow, sampling size. Okay. 8 6 a.m., tomorrow, here in this room. We had a real 7 good day and I really appreciate -- I really 8 appreciate all of you doing a really nice job of 9 staying present with some very complicated 10 material, and being good-humored and open to the 11 back and forth and the continual review and 12 openness to other ideas in the room. It's been 13 huge for the success of this working group and 14 you've been very, very successful. And we're 15 coming down the home stretch here. So I hope you 16 have a lovely evening. We'll see you here at 8 17 a.m. and we'll conclude this tomorrow. 18 (WHEREUPON, the meeting was 19 adjourned.) 20 21 22

### Capital Reporting Company Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-18-2014

1 CERTIFICATE OF COURT REPORTER 2 3 I, CHAZ BENNETT, the reporter before whom the 4 foregoing hearing was taken, do hereby certify 5 that the witness whose testimony appears in the 6 foregoing deposition was duly sworn by me; that 7 the testimony of said witness was recorded by me 8 and thereafter reduced to typewriting under my 9 direction; that said deposition is a true record 10 of the testimony given by said witness; that I am 11 neither counsel for, related to, nor employed by 12 any of the parties to the action in which this 13 deposition was taken; and, further, that I am not 14 a relative or employee of any counselor attorney 15 employed by the parties hereto, nor financially or 16 otherwise interested in the outcome of this 17 action. 18 19 20 21 22 CHAZ BENNETT

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 336

### Capital Reporting Company Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-18-2014

1 CERTIFICATE OF TRANSCRIPTION 2 3 I, BENJAMIN GRAHAM, hereby certify that I am not 4 the Court Reporter who reported the following 5 proceeding and that I have typed the transcript of 6 this proceeding using the Court Reporter's notes 7 and recordings. The foregoing/attached transcript 8 is a true, correct, and complete transcription of 9 10 11 1 2 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 2 2 said

Date proceeding.



### (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitaIReportingCompany.com © 2012 3 3 7

### Capital Reporting Company Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-18-2014

1 CERTIFICATE OF TRANSCRIPTION 2 3 I, CHERYL LaSELLE, hereby certify that I am not 4 the Court Reporter who reported the following 5 proceeding and that I have typed the transcript of 6 this proceeding using the Court Reporter's notes 7 and recordings. The foregoing/attached transcript 8 lS a true, correct, and complete transcription of 9 said proceeding. 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Date

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitaIReportingCompany.com © 2012 338

### Capital Reporting Company Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-18-2014

1 CERTIFICATE OF TRANSCRIPTION

2 3 I, Penny Knight, hereby certify that I am not the 4 Court Reporter who reported the following 5 proceeding and that I have typed the transcript of 6 this proceeding using the Court Reporter's notes 7 and recordings. The foregoing/attached transcript 8 is a true, correct, and complete transcription of 9 said proceeding. 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Date

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitaIReportingCompany.com © 2012 339

### Capital Report i ng Company Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-18-2014

1 CERTIFICATE OF TRANSCRIPTION 2 3 I, Janet Rice, hereby certify that I am not the 4 Court Reporter who reported the following 5 proceeding and that I have typed the transcript of 6 this proceeding using the Court Reporter's notes 7 and recordings. The foregoing/attached transcript 8 is a true, correct, and complete transcription of 9 said proceeding. 1 0 11 1 2 13 1 4 1 5 16 17 18 1 9 20 21 22 Date**~ET** RI CE ranscriptionist

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 0 0.05 82:8 0.2 119:4 0.5-ish 115:22 0714-1-EE-2J

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207:1,9 208:19 209:4,19 210:9,16 211:3,9 212:3,22 216:16 282:7,18 295:4 43 75:19 45 189:16 49 113:13 114:19 49.03 81:22 49.71 74:22 75:4 82:1 5 5 57:15 212:16 50 28:4 43:5,21 52:11 90:19 94:13 98:20 99:22 100:21 101:8,11 125:2 176:22 179:6 216:9 218:14 228:17,20 229:3 230:3 282:3,11 298:14 50s 98:12 51 75:20 53 75:19 55 62:19 58 31:14 6 6 212:16 60 24:18 62:19 75:1 81:17,19 94:13 60s 244:17 7

### Capital Reporting Company

Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-18-2014 Page 2

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 7 212:16 70 77:18 705 108:5 75 24:18 28:4,18 29:8 31:15 43:5,21 52:11 59:8 60:1 77:13,19 78:6 90:19,21 98:20 99:22 100:21 101:8 108:2,4 125:2 138:15 176:22 178:12 179:6 216:9 218:14 240:1,2 282:3,11,12 298:11 75% 176:20 180:12 8 8 57:15 212:16 335:5,16 8:00 173:4 80 31:15 80s 98:12 9 9 212:16 313:7 90 24:18 244:17 253:11,19 90.1 263:12,16 92.6 74:20 95 81:18 180:13 96 93:20 94:10 98:11 114:3 98 101:22 985 180:13 A a.m173:4 335:6,17 ABB 2:5 5:16 21:21 114:2 216:7 ability19:16 21:11 322:8 able 19:4 50:12 52:12,21 79:9 96:13 118:5 137:15 142:8 235:16 261:13 275:12 288:1,6 aboveboard302:8 absence72:15 absent215:21 225:14 226:5 277:20 315:12 321:17 absolutely184:20 247:8 318:13 abstain 213:8 226:1 277:16 321:15 abstains 321:16 abstention 213:9,19 225:13 226:4 277:17,18,20 315:11 abstentions 213:21 214:7 215:20 277:19 321:17 accept 18:5 30:17 66:3 71:12 accepted160:4 accepting213:3 225:7 315:7 321:10 accommodate 29:19 92:4 accomplish 192:20 257:14 324:3 accomplished 113:15 147:8 200:14 accordance24:14 58:17 80:11 81:6 205:12 207:9 209:6,7,19 210:8 211:3 212:3,8,22 account46:3 93:16 179:13,15 215:21 accounted116:4,5 accounting61:9 82:20 accuracy 25:10,13 47:15 105:18 119:4 accurate15:14 44:22 45:12 52:9 105:15 106:5 108:19 121:14 165:17 264:1 277:1 accurately

7:12 8:4 30:14 106:7 118:15 achieve109:11 111:7 127:7 200:1 achieves 54:2 acknowledge 55:1 328:11,15 acquire187:7 acquisition 25:7

across 38:1 58:10 133:10 248:13 act170:17 action 144:1 336:12,17 activity 11:13 12:4,8,12,14 13:1 188:2 actual24:10 25:18 31:1 65:19 70:9 86:14 108:20 125:5 244:11 252:22 257:3,6 260:3,6 262:1,17 298:20 315:7 329:16 actually4:13 10:5 12:17 22:4 29:22 32:22 33:11 40:9 41:10 48:6 49:2 59:16 63:21 64:17 69:7 76:17 82:19 87:3 100:11 110:15 127:5 151:19 154:2 164:1 165:10 177:4 183:1 187:1,22 188:10 189:7,8 191:11 204:16 214:21 216:13 220:21 221:4 226:1 228:20 231:14 232:13 239:1 243:7,12 252:6 256:16 262:22 263:16 277:18 278:12,15 279:2 283:17 289:21 292:18,21 298:17,19

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 302:1,6 306:7 319:15 ad 40:12 adaption 147:1 add 16:16 52:2 65:6 74:8 124:16 131:16 212:1 215:13 250:7,10 253:1 257:20 258:4 260:8 262:10 265:9 267:21 270:19 272:17 281:18 289:13 309:1 311:16 331:12 332:18 added 16:22 17:16 70:14 229:21 264:17 adding 255:11 311:14 addition 11:4 83:4 207:1 211:10,18 256:21 266:15 289:1 293:3 additional15:5 16:7 39:20 42:17 44:5 85:1 88:18 138:10 151:11 166:12 175:19 218:7 243:3 279:18 281:8 289:8 291:15 292:6,8 302:14 311:17 318:20 address 11:16 16:3 156:14 160:6 180:21 181:1 259:7,8 276:4 278:12 286:5,19 288:11 addressed275:22

addressing 16:11 adds 170:20 311:17 Adin 2:3 5:13 6:18 7:1 10:19 11:2 12:9 14:16,17,21 15:3 22:21 23:1,8 40:13,17,18,20 41:1,4,7,19,22 48:22 49:1,9 50:22 51:5 56:3 86:10,13,18 87:7,19 88:3 111:16 112:18,21 113:8 142:5,6,12,16,19 ,22 143:4 156:11 161:18,21 162:3,7,12,15,22 164:4,5,12,16,20 165:6 166:5 167:4,10,18,21 168:2,8,11,15 170:1,4 173:10,15,19 174:1,3 181:21 182:19,22 183:13,19 184:6,17,19 185:6,21 186:8 206:15,16 207:4,12,18,22 209:22 210:5 219:10,17 231:18 232:4,13,17 233:2 234:12 235:1,5,8,18 237:17 241:1,19,22 268:16,19 269:8,10,16,20 270:9 271:20

272:4,6,16 275:21 276:18 277:15,16 278:19 283:17,21 285:2,6,11,19 286:16,18 288:5 290:4 292:2 305:17 321:15,16 327:14 328:8,19 329:1 332:3,5,15 adjourned 335:19 adjust126:9 admit 47:10 adopt168:5 adopted 157:3 254:16 adoption 170:14 advance9:5 141:20 advanced 46:20 53:4 advantage300:19 advertise270:6 advocacy 151:12 advocates 204:4 317:14 325:7 AEDMs 83:14 84:1 affect23:20 109:6 135:20 312:1 affected 17:4,5 22:11 70:15 affecting 322:8 affects 70:9 82:8 affinity 91:17 against187:6

agenda173:9 194:8 aggregated 17:3 agnostic11:19 ago 196:7 301:3 313:19 agreed11:12 16:10 59:9 143:21 174:15 176:14 235:1 242:6 308:2 324:14 326:11 328:2 agreement9:10 121:22 147:15 148:9,19 209:4 305:4 333:13 agreements 163:14 176:6 ahead 75:13 97:7 103:15 149:2 154:19 158:14 255:8 258:12 259:13 287:20 291:7 307:20 322:3 324:4 326:1 Ah-ha151:22 ahold 301:9 AHRI117:18 118:19 aid 332:13 air113:5 Al4:20 18:14,16 40:1 51:11 53:6 56:7 76:7 88:5,6 94:1 96:21 98:9 101:6 103:1 104:8,14 105:19

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 106:18 109:20 112:10 113:18 133:17 134:20 136:17 138:2 146:20 154:19,20 160:10 161:8 170:10 172:5 177:6,7 181:4,5 185:1 190:7 194:12 196:12 197:11 223:6 229:13 240:11 241:10 246:21 247:16 248:6 251:21 254:5 256:17 258:14 263:19 274:2,13 294:13 301:8 302:22 310:22 314:14 Alascio 2:5 5:16 21:21 23:6,11 102:14,18 114:2,10,13 115:4 216:6 217:14,19 albeit82:5 ALBERT 2:14 algorithm83:17 algorithms15:17 align 157:20 aligning 208:2 Alison 3:3 19:19 131:15 143:9 243:4 261:19 268:2,4 277:7 321:18 329:9 331:15 332:3 Alison's 308:18 Alliance 2:19 all-important 224:1 allowed 75:5 83:19 allows 54:3 alone 80:19 already16:15 22:13 85:9 93:14 101:19 103:10 104:10 107:15 129:14 138:17 140:18 155:12 163:8,9 192:22 214:18 230:18 256:8 268:3 275:11 alternative53:17 83:16 217:9 alternatively 262:2 alternatives 53:16 86:5 157:3 am11:18 31:4 137:19 143:19 145:11,21 147:3 149:1 151:5 158:8 161:18 164:6,21 166:5 167:13 168:8 170:19,20 175:20 177:18 179:12 186:2 193:6,7,12 197:9 336:10,13 337:3 338:3 339:3 340:3 ambitious 144:2 ambivalent 304:9,15 amend 87:11 amending 307:18 American 2:16 5:10 122:19 among13:14 54:4 151:8 177:3 200:7 amongst 110:1 221:10 amount 29:19 77:13 147:17 169:9 280:7 amounts 288:19 amplify10:17 amps 118:6 analysis 21:14 68:17 71:16 78:6 144:13 155:20 309:9 analysts 325:19 analytic48:12 142:14 analytical48:17 142:8 144:12,16 148:7 238:22 331:20 332:8 334:5,8 announcement 160:22 162:20 answer44:11,12 45:6 46:13 56:17 87:17 105:9 128:14 131:13 136:7 148:22 219:9 240:10,16 247:7,10 248:5 254:21 285:19 326:6 answering 238:2 answers 239:7 answer's 240:19 247:7

anticipate24:13 45:3 128:4 136:8 anticipated323:7 anticipating 324:8 anxiety20:1 anybody6:8 197:18 250:1 296:7 anybody's 112:20 anymore59:19 anyone 22:1 142:2 anyone's 89:22 anything 6:8 12:7 18:12 24:6 52:19 73:22 93:15 94:17 104:19 142:2,3 160:20 163:14 167:15,22 173:3,8 194:20 211:18 221:2 222:13 265:9 272:17 302:1 306:7 308:1 328:4 334:12 anyway95:11 120:13 209:17 227:3 228:21 278:15 282:4 308:3 apologize69:10 74:19 267:17 273:6 apparently161:22 262:8 appears 336:5 applaud 225:16 Applause 141:4

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 225:17 apples-to-apples 283:2 Appliance 2:15 5:11 appliances 183:6 applicability 272:20 applicable 38:21 72:8 267:20 270:11 279:21 282:12 305:18 321:5 application 60:4 235:9 253:7 applications 178:5 246:17 263:17 applied 38:6 39:11 44:19 66:8 71:22 73:5 107:17 108:8 141:15 158:2 179:3 246:18 apply39:6,16 42:16 47:3 55:10,11 65:6 73:8 84:15 109:18 124:14 156:2 208:9,10,13 216:16,17,21 218:5 applying 45:9 66:9 81:8 113:9 130:17 140:17 appreciate137:21 278:17 335:7,8 approach 8:8 13:15 30:11 36:11 39:22 48:13,18 56:2 80:9,15 84:18 85:18 157:11,12,15 291:4 appropriate27:1 62:10 83:13 93:6 106:17 118:10 122:12 130:2 155:22 156:5 201:17 233:13 237:8 255:22 271:13 295:5 303:12 317:11 327:11 approval330:16 approve164:1,2 165:11 213:1 approved 308:2 330:17 architecture 174:11 214:11 aren't12:3 23:4 169:19,21 243:8 315:18 arise139:13 ARMSTRONG 2:4 arrange150:15 array 86:2 145:8 arrive15:19 228:5 arrived202:20 320:2 arrow273:1,3 art303:17 articulate112:22 Ashley2:4 279:7 284:7 286:5 aside 45:17

aspect300:15 301:18 ASRAC 162:18,19 164:20 167:15 168:5 169:4,6,8,20 170:8 172:2 212:20 213:4 225:3,8 267:6 275:6 291:11 315:5 321:11 329:22 330:1,18 331:5 ASRAC-approved 329:12 331:18 assigned 217:6 232:15 associated25:2 60:17 76:16 93:22 158:2 159:15 187:3 284:5 Association 160:14 assume38:13 65:12 81:3 82:22 91:21 100:3,14 107:9 137:10 208:13 297:5 assumed43:17 45:16 63:5 81:12,18 92:17 93:19 104:13 106:22 107:8,16 123:16 124:11 125:9,10 135:8 136:2 179:16 217:2 294:10 296:13 assuming51:17 83:1 93:12 98:20 109:11 113:19 135:11 184:9 330:8 assumption 44:9 138:22 assumptions 121:10 assures 6:12 astronomical 246:1 attached238:1 324:22 attempt331:1 attention 161:1 162:14 255:10 attorney 336:14 attractive 85:17 255:6 atypical33:6 audit244:5 authority183:9 authorized167:17 169:6,22 331:22 availability328:12 available 6:3 22:1 24:15 27:2 29:5,20 42:6 44:14 47:11 52:9 66:3 73:7 85:9 117:14 121:13,21 122:1,2,11 181:6 218:3 222:1 273:15 281:16 286:15 293:17,19 296:4 300:16 313:7 Avenue1:16 average43:6,21

### Capital Reporting Company

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 61:4 64:8,11 66:6 68:2 74:14 90:17 176:16 178:18 205:1 214:17 298:15 avoids 54:13,18 aware 153:13 161:18 164:6 168:8 170:12 210:5 333:3 Awareness 2:15 5:12 away32:15 136:2 237:6 244:18 251:7 axis 27:17,20 aye277:13 B Backing 143:12 backup 9:20 badge 79:5 balance 128:2,7 ball163:20 band 44:5 251:9 bands 44:5 66:14,17 73:5 Barbour2:6 4:19 157:9 191:21,22 192:6,9 231:11,12 232:1 233:5,11,19,21 234:2,4 285:12 286:1 334:14,15,18 335:1 bare24:11 35:13 36:12 37:19 38:3,4,8,20,22 42:7,9,10,14,15 45:10 55:9 58:16 60:9 72:2 75:10 78:18 79:16,21 80:17,19 82:2,3 88:22 89:1,8,10,11,13 93:2 118:17 129:17,18,20 130:17 131:3,8 132:2 135:10 197:19 204:14 211:14,17 212:3,22 227:17,18 258:18,21 282:17 barely219:19 base 66:22 205:12 231:15 235:15 241:4 244:10 256:3 264:5,8 330:10 based 17:3 26:8 27:5 28:1 34:16 35:8,17,22 36:15 37:11,18 38:14 43:4 47:3 49:4 60:18 61:21 62:6 63:5,11 64:1,4 65:5 72:4 74:19 75:20 77:11 90:6 102:19 104:9,12 112:6 113:4,18 117:14 135:8,12,15 146:9 158:20,21 166:3 179:20 184:8,13 204:15,18 219:11 234:6,17 266:6 267:14 269:3 272:21 296:20 298:20 304:16 306:14

309:19 312:2 313:5 baseline 149:9 158:5 basic 232:4,5,8,10,15, 18 233:7,22 235:10,21 236:18 237:14,20 239:3,14 240:4,21 241:2,4,5 242:16 246:2 252:11 255:19,22 265:7,17 266:9 270:11,16 279:20 283:12 284:3 285:1,15 286:10 287:10 288:8,13 basically41:15 147:15 148:9,10 149:9,14,18,21 156:12 162:10 204:9,21 210:14 219:5 222:22 235:14 278:16 307:15 309:7 314:15 basing 265:7 basis 154:9 159:10 168:6 170:22 203:22 232:15 235:2 beat106:2 become 56:10 becomes 240:3 250:11 begin 247:2 249:10

beginning 201:18 begs 311:12 behalf 53:3 324:6 believe102:18 160:17 223:7 305:6 318:4 327:4 believes 8:8 49:16 beneficial85:17 175:21 200:4 291:21 benefit32:17 39:19 144:15 148:21 159:13 187:6 189:3 217:5 benefits 115:18 BENJAMIN 337:3,15 BENNETT 336:3,20 BEP 24:19,21 25:1,2,17,18 26:13 27:22 28:3,5,8,12,18 29:9,21 30:1,8 31:3,14,15,16 33:5 34:8 35:20 36:6,16 43:6 59:9 60:13,15 62:18 90:20 91:5,9 92:3,4,7,8,9,10,1 5,16 101:8 108:1,2,4 124:10 125:3 136:13 138:7 177:1 180:10,12 210:19 216:9,16 218:15 233:11

### Capital Reporting Company

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 279:22 294:3 321:5 Berkeley3:3 besides 119:12 158:10 230:16 best8:8 15:3 19:16 21:11 25:19 26:9 29:15 30:13 60:1 91:12 107:11 163:1 176:20 200:14 201:15 241:16 246:6,8 248:1,15 249:5 316:15 328:19 329:6 bet70:22 Betsy168:17 170:4 better 30:2 32:19 45:15 48:4 50:10 52:17 54:2,6 57:4,10 70:20 76:20 84:20 85:21 93:18 95:10 108:16 123:15 125:8 132:19 148:7 150:2 157:20 227:10 230:12 245:10 251:19 261:16 279:10 333:17 beyond 54:21 236:19 bias 66:15 218:6 biased 32:19 bifurcation 279:14 bigger192:7 bin 60:16 65:5 73:7 bins 68:4,21 77:22 299:13,14 bit13:12 26:11 30:2 33:7,9 35:1,12,18 37:21 50:14 54:2,10 61:16 68:16 89:10 92:3 116:8,10 118:7,18,20 126:19,20 140:6 154:6 156:3 161:6 182:3 192:20 259:22 284:19 286:6 313:15 blank262:2 blue 26:8 31:8 35:12,16,17 36:19 37:1,5 61:6 64:4 91:13 Bob 4:19 95:16 157:8,9 158:17,21 191:21,22 192:11 231:11,12 233:4,5,20 236:1 285:12 334:14,15 Bob's 236:15 BOOKMAN 139:15 Boteler2:7 5:3 43:16,20 44:2,8 53:1,2 73:12,21 98:4,5 104:21,22 105:11,17 106:9,13 188:16,17 283:7,8 bottom27:15 63:3 68:13 178:19

bought187:21 bound 142:15 bounds 69:4,6 bowls 314:4,11 box111:4 brake 35:13 60:12 break 79:3 199:16 202:8,10 203:1,9,14,19 274:9 breakthrough 6:6 brief 193:1 briefly193:2 199:16 278:12 bring 61:20 175:15 186:5 bringing 316:21 broad 110:2 146:9 151:2 161:21 162:5 broadly146:10 162:2 broke 64:15 BROOKMAN2:2 4:2 5:17 6:16,21 9:12 10:15 11:3,10,17 12:6 13:5 14:6,13,16 15:4 18:14 19:9,21 20:1,20 21:19 23:10,13,18 24:1,5,8 27:4,10,21 30:18 31:17 32:11 33:16,21 40:18 48:22 49:20 51:4,11 53:1,13 54:11 56:7,14

71:4 75:12 76:7 77:2 78:14,16 79:1,11 85:22 86:2,17 87:6,13 88:1,4,14,17 96:21 98:4,15 101:6 102:16 103:4,14 104:4,21 105:19 112:10 115:9 120:17 125:12,14,16 127:14 128:11,18 133:17 134:6,9,16 135:2 138:1 140:9,12,21 141:2,6,9 142:10,13,17,21 143:2,6,12 144:18 145:7,14 146:20 149:1 150:21 151:4,17,22 152:3 153:2,6 154:1,8,11,20 156:10,15 157:8 158:11 159:16 160:2,10 161:6 162:1 163:12 164:11,15,19,21 165:16 166:12,17 169:14,16,18 170:15 171:6,9,19 172:4,9,18,21 173:1 174:4 175:12,14,17 177:6 181:1,4 182:8 183:22 186:9,19 188:16 189:5 190:5

### Capital Reporting Company

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 191:4,6,9,21 192:16,22 194:9,21 195:7,19 197:7,11 199:14 202:9,17 203:6 205:13,19,22 206:4,9,11,15 208:5,15 209:20 210:6 211:19 212:10,12,14 213:9,16,22 214:3,6 215:17 216:5 217:16 218:21 219:3 220:3 221:3 222:16 223:6,20 224:10,12,14,18, 20,22 225:18 226:2,13,22 227:20 228:4 229:8,11 230:20 231:11 232:7,16 233:1,4 234:20 235:4,7,11 237:12 240:11 241:10 242:16,19 245:19 246:2,12,14 250:5,8,20 251:21 252:9,11,16,19 255:1,9 256:17,19 257:1,8 258:6,9,14 259:14,17 262:18 263:22 265:11 266:10,12 267:4,9 270:2,21 271:3,5,7,15 272:3,5,7,10,12, 19 273:7,11,19 274:2,4,8,12,16, 22 275:13,18,20 276:7 277:6,17 278:1,6,9 279:10 283:7,20 287:19 289:14,16 290:13,16 291:3 292:1,3,13 293:22 294:13,19 295:7,20 296:11 299:20 300:13 301:1,14 302:9,22 303:9 304:3,21 305:22 307:4,19 308:9,17 309:4,15,18 310:19,21 311:10 312:4 313:2,12,14,16 314:7,16,21 315:3,15,20 317:20 318:3 319:3,10,16 320:11,20 321:16,22 322:2,16,20 323:8,13,16 324:2,11,21 326:8 327:3,16,20 328:17,21 329:8,15,18 330:3,19 331:8,11 332:5 333:5,18,21 334:10,17 335:4 brought171:21 193:6 228:16 282:14 295:11 buddies 283:10 build 53:9 Building 1:17

buildings 263:17 built33:19 34:2 48:8 bulk141:10 bullet205:21,22 206:3 210:14 224:15 272:21 273:1,3,12 280:15 282:9 283:10 302:11 bullets 204:19 295:15 321:3 bump 42:7 bunch 35:2 243:2 278:16 burden 48:13,19 85:1 137:17 187:3 243:2 299:6 burdensome30:10 39:21 52:20 84:14 85:16 121:8,18 business 13:19 busy103:7 buy275:17 C calculate25:15 30:8 31:19 42:14 60:14 62:11 75:2 82:11 88:10 92:12,18 137:15 282:1 293:4 294:5,7,9,15 297:19 calculated50:11 53:16,22 65:19 80:21 92:10 93:14 113:10,16,17 117:3,4 205:2 214:18 219:11 271:10 274:1 280:5,16 282:6 283:1 292:17,18 293:5,11,18,20 298:1 302:2 321:8 calculating31:4 37:3 45:3 79:16 80:18 84:7 87:21 90:10 91:6 100:1 107:22 117:1 123:21 135:11 137:16 303:13 calculation 26:6 35:15 44:17 77:11 79:19 80:9 84:17 90:14 93:10 100:8,15 107:19 109:9 116:21 121:5,6 122:1,8,10 124:5,8,18 216:12,15 217:7,8 282:19 283:4 292:22 295:17 296:9 302:21 calculation-based 89:14 calculations 28:6 38:20 39:16 43:14 45:16 55:20 75:20 116:3 124:19 125:4 290:19 calculator 16:2,3,12 17:12 18:8 20:9 21:7 22:7,18 23:7

### Capital Reporting Company

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 54:16 57:18 72:17 77:12,19 96:16,19 97:1,3,4 116:1 139:11 140:14,15 180:3 290:18 292:15 293:1 296:14 298:4,5 299:1,11 calculators 21:22 178:7 calculator's 17:21 77:16 calendars 145:10 calibrated 132:15,18,19,20 133:2,18,22 134:1,2,13,20 California 2:11 5:5 300:8 campaign 270:6 capable 119:1 capacitor120:8 capacitors 120:10 capacity 144:3 Cappelino 220:5,6,11,16,19 235:13,19,22 236:6,9 246:14,15,21 Cappellino 141:7,8 158:14 159:17,18 287:21 288:4 305:5,6,11,13 capture8:20 30:2,9 31:1 104:14 115:17 118:5 200:17 214:22 272:15 282:9 287:11 304:21 316:15 captured8:3 25:6 93:10,14 104:6 156:11 197:6 214:9 255:4 258:16 captures 7:12 215:1 capturing26:19 32:18 35:11 84:19 85:21 123:12 125:5 care48:19 57:17 206:6 careful105:1 230:12 237:12 277:21 301:10 cares 17:9 carrying35:15 74:3 case2:8 4:22 27:8 33:17,18 34:1,22 39:12 42:19,21 47:6,8,19,22 48:2 50:3 52:7 59:2,4 60:21 67:2,3 69:15 71:20 72:2,6,21 74:15,16,19 78:19 80:8 81:22 82:2,4 89:10,14 90:3,18,21 91:6 93:19 97:19 99:13 100:2,3,8 101:13 103:10,13,14,22 104:17 106:19 108:5,15 112:3,7 113:4,12 115:21 116:18 118:1 133:19 135:8 136:3 178:10

179:5,9 190:20 196:15 208:10 214:15 217:8,13 222:16,17 223:10 224:3 229:22 251:15,19 261:5 270:13 286:7 293:20 306:10,22 312:4,5 313:9 318:3 319:8,11 320:12 cases 29:5 37:22 45:2,15 83:13 87:19 107:4,5 117:8 118:4 136:14 139:9 179:3 187:15 318:19,22 cast213:5 Casting277:13 catalogue187:11 catch275:3 302:5 category 74:1 91:4 caucus 88:19 151:1 170:16 172:10,17 186:4 192:14 202:12 203:15 204:2,4 209:18 226:21 227:2 273:17 325:6,8,9 caucuses 13:14 203:10 325:14 caught273:8 cause242:16 245:6 277:19 280:3 300:19 329:19 333:8 caveat 310:6,9 caveats 136:4 certain4:13 50:20 130:2 153:11 169:9 191:14 284:13 288:8 certainly 11:17 12:10,15 14:21 46:14 65:6 69:14 76:13 98:12 129:11 146:7 153:16,21 157:3,15 158:5 159:1 171:11 182:14 201:3 254:10 303:5 306:16 323:15 332:12 certainty 171:12 CERTIFICATE 336:1 337:1 338:1 339:1 340:1 certification 182:16 184:8 195:2,3,22 202:7 234:2 235:16 242:8 255:17 266:14 270:9 271:14 276:3 284:8 288:9 291:12 304:16,19 306:13,15 310:2 313:4 315:14 316:5,8 321:2 certified15:22 84:11 130:6 131:4,18 132:1,12,13 134:2 188:6 233:12 234:5

### Capital Reporting Company

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 238:21 239:5 255:16 256:1 270:15 279:20 283:6 288:14 299:22 300:5,10 313:10 314:1,3,5 certify286:10 336:4 337:3 338:3 339:3 340:3 certifying190:20 284:6 challenge 61:22 64:2,5 chance4:3 204:3,4 chances 299:7 change18:22 45:10 55:4,15,17,19,21 70:10,12 76:21,22 78:3 82:7,9 89:2 95:18 107:7 113:18,21,22 114:6,13 116:13 123:15 126:18 166:4 177:16 179:3,12 191:17 192:11 205:11,18 207:15 209:1 228:20 229:1 242:12,13 267:17 320:17 changed 64:13 81:10 92:3 99:10 269:18 changes 16:4,9,11 18:17 19:5 47:7 65:3,12,16,17 110:22 119:11 135:5,22 155:19 194:1 196:14 234:12 241:21 321:19 changing 77:22 126:12,14 247:11 characteristics 37:10 75:7 158:1 200:4,21 characterize109:1 146:10 149:4 characterized 146:18 Charlie141:6 158:14 159:16,18 220:5,6 235:12,13 246:14,15 247:12 287:20,21 289:2 305:4 chart38:1 58:9 64:18 67:10 69:5,8,17 74:13 79:21 259:4 charter 13:3 chases 302:4 CHAZ336:3,20 check 189:13 317:10 333:3 CHERYL 338:3,14 chitchat221:10 choice185:13 248:22 choose77:17 138:7 chooses 77:12 chose32:20

chosen 310:12 circles 36:19 circuit147:12 circular14:4 325:9 circulator127:4 141:18 146:1 148:1 151:15 157:15 158:18,19 161:5 324:7,10,19 327:18,21 circulators 11:13 30:4 57:1 141:21 143:22 144:6,16 145:2,3,17 151:6 152:21 154:4,16 155:10,22 156:14,18 157:7,13,19 158:3,8,10,13 163:4,8,10 192:5 322:19 324:15 326:18,21 328:3 329:22 CL 74:19 198:5,8 205:6,8,9 220:8,13 225:5,6 227:5,17,18 230:8 233:13 234:11 253:11 255:7,22 259:20 260:17 267:16 270:22 271:1 273:2 275:9 279:21 280:11,20 282:2 321:4,7 clarification 12:11 141:14 153:7 166:22 219:1 220:16 261:8

318:20 clarifications 163:18 clarified 150:9 314:9 clarify35:1 46:14 49:1 165:1 177:13 185:6 240:15 257:2 272:8 283:18 284:20 309:10 329:10,14 clarifying 76:4 165:7 332:4 clarity175:18 220:22 class 59:20 62:3 236:18 237:14 287:22 288:13,20 289:22 290:1,7 312:16 321:4 classes 122:13 131:13 clause 262:4 307:1 clean 139:8 149:4 clear27:5 28:7 57:9,14 104:20 107:2 182:22 193:16 212:2,7 215:16 235:12 260:9 262:7 266:12 268:20 271:20 281:3 293:16 295:2 304:10 332:1 clearer 98:1 237:18 268:18 clearly107:13

### Capital Reporting Company

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 113:1 close21:6,14,15 30:7 155:8 175:17,19 247:20,21 248:6 289:5 313:13 319:17 closed-coupled 288:21 290:2 closed-coupling 133:21 closer13:3 20:13 153:19 closure308:10 co-chairs 146:4 coded60:8 coefficients 47:1,2 63:5,8 65:5 70:10 71:22 216:19 coffee 79:6 collect 28:10 47:7 49:17 264:10 279:6 collected25:14 31:7 85:9 collecting25:8 264:7 279:2 colon 272:20 color60:7 colors 286:6 column26:5,8,17 312:7 combination 96:6 129:5 130:15 combinations 103:18 combine 39:1 58:18 124:15 177:10 combined 42:10 45:1 65:20 combining 22:12 61:9 comes 13:3 27:12 41:12 56:20 81:22 92:5 157:19 185:10 comfortable 109:15 165:7 172:11 173:11 202:22 204:12 206:13 211:21 212:4 275:1 319:5 320:6,7 324:17 328:9 comfortably79:9 coming 53:7 190:11 229:6 297:17 302:3 335:15 comma270:21 271:1,2 commas 270:19 commence327:9 comment 10:7,12 11:6 56:16 72:13 77:7,8 82:6 97:16 109:21 143:4 161:9 171:7 207:20 250:7,10 259:11 283:9 287:1 304:8 328:22 331:15,16 comments6:16 8:16,19 10:8 15:5 16:7 27:7 30:13,17 43:15 61:20 71:12 85:7 139:13 166:12 254:2 276:1 commercial4:5 187:2,8,9 286:8 COMMERCIAL/ INDUSTRIAL 1:4 commission 183:8 commissioning 263:14 commit 328:4 329:7 committed 170:8 committee146:1 147:10 151:15 152:12 212:15 215:22 226:11 324:10 325:10 committing 326:1,4 common156:19 256:7 communicate 201:14 communicates 200:8 communication 261:9,14,16 communications 146:3 companies 35:3 Company2:14 company's 183:12 compared 37:16 65:15 200:10 comparing 63:21 115:1 comparison 283:2

compatible 199:5 compelled 160:3 competition's 301:20 complete273:11 337:8 338:8 339:8 340:8 completely111:18 112:21 168:2 178:8 182:21 complex52:1,20 complexities 19:18 complexity17:15 47:15 48:12,18 65:6 108:21 compliance 276:3 279:4 280:9 284:9,16 291:19 297:20 compliant16:13 36:13 37:6,8,13,15 38:14 39:2,8 47:22 49:4 51:6 52:6 54:21 59:13 61:3 63:13 72:3 75:8 76:9,16 111:21 112:2,6,12 131:18 174:12 178:15,22 179:19 180:5,15 205:10 209:4 215:11 219:2,4,11,12,13 complicated 45:19 51:8 85:4 118:7 136:5 243:1 335:9

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 complication 46:2 comply193:18 component91:21 125:21 comprehensive 73:10 compromise304:5 compute 300:17 con 32:21 concept 314:15 conceptually27:5 314:22 concern194:3 248:17 265:5 concerned197:13 198:20 333:14 concerns 129:8 130:14 229:10 conclude 9:16 10:1 11:21 335:17 concrete49:19 162:18 286:21 condition 105:20 confident170:21 171:14,16 253:20 275:11 configuration 37:19 52:17 89:8 131:11 196:10 200:8 234:14 240:9 267:15 272:22 306:4 315:19 configurations 38:2 43:12 confirm9:12 19:13 75:18 139:17 310:8 confirmation 152:13 confirmed223:2 277:7 confuse 260:1 confused 123:18 220:13 confusing 76:11,13 123:1 177:11 268:10 283:3 285:4 confusion 101:7 319:12 cons 121:4 consensus 88:7 156:17 193:5 213:11 266:3 315:2 consequence 311:14 Conservation2:10 5:8 conservative 66:9,12 67:1 69:16 94:1,6 95:9 102:5 104:9 107:10,12 108:14 109:9,17 110:21 111:18 112:15 114:21 115:12,14,19 117:3 218:4,8 297:6 consider34:14 37:18 38:11 46:6,19 49:15 63:19 64:17 66:19 86:21 103:6 120:2,6,15 136:17 155:21 156:8 167:16 170:9 181:19

184:21 187:16 203:3 279:8 285:21 322:9 325:10,16 considerable 280:7 322:5 considerably 98:10,11 253:19 consideration 135:5 169:9,21 329:2 considered46:16 83:15 109:2 131:1 157:4 172:11 186:22 189:3 285:15 considering11:18 38:3 62:4 63:10,18 71:7 119:6 193:8 246:17 consistent16:21 18:1 29:16 36:11 107:2,3 133:10 148:3 170:5 180:14 185:10,14 208:19 259:10 313:11 323:1 327:4 constant74:16,22 75:2,3 97:4,11 110:4 140:15 176:22 177:8 178:3,4,10 196:8 214:13,14 215:8,10 253:3,10,13 254:11 273:1 294:11 constituency 160:16 172:6

constraints 328:16 construct 74:10 constructed34:12 construction 174:18 consultants 151:20 154:14 170:12 consultation 307:6 consulting 2:22 3:2 325:18 consumer

183:6 200:9 consumers 187:6 196:11 consumption 185:8 302:19 contacts 160:13 content 6:9,10 141:12 164:3,11,13 173:12 182:7 203:22 271:22 275:5 277:11 context 75:1 238:21 continual335:11 continue 4:12 13:11 17:8 72:13 181:19 278:15 325:16 Continued 3:1 continuing 71:8 contributions 295:8 control 55:5,6,11,12,13

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costly263:20 costs 50:14 148:4 158:2 council2:10,21 5:8 299:10 counsel10:17 56:15 336:11,14 count225:12 226:14 counted213:19 226:4,5,12 counterproposal 150:14 counts 310:14 couple 6:20 37:17 133:19 175:1 201:10 313:18 course9:18 14:13,22 93:20 118:12 215:5 248:12 249:2 278:6 Court336:1 337:4,6 338:4,6 339:4,6 340:4,6 cover7:3 73:18 312:16,22 334:13 coverage161:13 162:9 covered63:14 67:5,6 72:7,22 74:1 128:22 163:15 211:4 243:8 272:1 289:21 314:22 334:11 covers 73:14 crank 263:3,6 create134:19 creating20:1 134:18 credit50:12 55:14,18 creditable301:5,7 criteria135:19 cross 266:22 crosswalk

188:5 231:2 265:19 287:12 CSA117:17 cubic 62:6,9 63:4 74:7 99:7,8 cue143:22 current 56:2 116:10 119:2 149:12 211:22 330:16 currently 229:13 323:1 326:15 331:7 curve17:22 25:19 27:12,15 28:1 29:19 30:7 31:1,2 33:1,2 34:7 35:11 36:20 37:1 39:11,19 42:17 43:1 44:18 47:2 49:4 53:9 54:8 55:7,13 58:20 61:7 62:7 63:17 64:4 65:3,7,13,17,18 66:19 71:20 77:8 81:9 82:10 83:7 84:15 90:3,7 91:10,11,13,14,1 5,22 92:17

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 93:4,12,22 94:2 95:15 99:1 100:11,15 101:16 102:3,6,15 104:13 107:16 110:8,9,10,12 111:13,15 113:20,21 114:20 123:15 124:12,14,16 125:19 126:12,13 127:5,8,9 137:1 156:2 178:21 179:16 216:21 217:3,15,17,18 218:2 223:3 251:3,8 252:7 294:10,15,16,18, 21 295:5 296:3,4,18 curved27:15 curves 36:1 39:2,18 45:8 46:17,19 47:12,17 58:7 61:17 62:8 63:2,20,22 66:5 68:19 77:9 78:6 83:1 88:8 93:5,7 95:22 96:12,17,18 102:19 104:15,16 109:16 125:9 221:14 252:2 300:3 curvy27:16 custom296:14 297:3 298:16 customer135:1 183:15 222:14 297:4 309:21

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### Capital Reporting Company

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### Capital Reporting Company

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### Capital Reporting Company

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### Capital Reporting Company

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### Capital Reporting Company

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### Capital Reporting Company

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### Capital Reporting Company

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### Capital Reporting Company

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### Capital Reporting Company

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 190:11,14,16 196:8 198:5,7,8,10 205:6 216:11 224:6,19 225:6 227:5,17,18,19 228:17 230:7,8,16 233:13 234:10 253:9,11,18 255:7,22 260:17 262:11 266:6 267:17,18 269:2 271:1 273:2,4 274:1 275:9 279:21 280:11,20 282:2 289:12 292:18 295:18 296:20 302:18,21 303:15 307:20 309:18 321:4,7 PEIs 115:21 PEI's 177:8 penalize 102:12 penalizing 96:5 penciled 145:10 Penny 339:3,13 people 50:10 52:13 99:20 102:12 103:20 106:6 152:7 163:7 173:2 187:18 198:19 220:12 226:10 227:9 230:2 247:22 249:18 254:19 260:5 269:14 302:7 320:9 332:20 people's 252:2 per19:15 48:4 61:1,2 65:22 69:21 74:13,19,21 75:3,4 76:8,15,19 81:22 82:8,12,13 100:2 108:5 113:11,12 114:6,14 117:5 124:9 134:20 135:11 177:2 179:4 180:5 205:8,9,10 214:12,16 215:4,8,10 216:12 219:5,6,10,16,21 ,22 220:8 224:6,19 225:5 242:8 259:20 260:1,6 261:7 267:16 282:18 295:4 307:15 309:18 perambulatory 164:14 percent 20:8,16 21:14 24:19 28:3,5,18,20 29:9,21 31:14,15,16 33:5 35:22 36:5,16 43:6 50:6 57:15 60:12,15,21 62:14,18,19 66:1,2 70:3,4 74:20 77:14,18,20 78:6 81:19 82:7 90:20,21 91:5,9 92:1,2,9,16 93:20 102:1 108:2,4 114:5 115:13 119:4 123:4 125:2,20 126:8

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### Capital Reporting Company

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 107:18,21 108:1,10 109:4,7,20 116:19 117:16 118:5,15,22 119:2,19 120:1,8 124:2,10,22 133:2,16 135:13 136:10,13,20 146:18,19 176:17 178:19,20 180:7 205:1 210:20 214:17 216:16,17,22 218:13,18 224:2 282:16,18,21 283:3,5 293:21 299:10,14 302:18,19 303:3,17 304:22 317:14 319:22 321:8 powered 145:1,2 PowerPoints 276:19 powers 90:10 preamble 41:13 86:22 87:10 166:1,7,15 168:22 precisely133:4 precision 48:20 prefer268:17 334:21 preferable87:2 preference193:13 197:17 preferred330:22 preliminary

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### Capital Reporting Company

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### Capital Reporting Company

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### Capital Reporting Company

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### Capital Reporting Company

Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-18-2014 Page 60

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