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U.S. DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION 

OFFICE OF HEARINGS 

LITIGATION SCHEDULING CONFERENCE 

IN THE MATTER OF: 

FEDERAL AVIATION 

ADMINISTRATION, 

—iOO^ 

"D 

FAA No. 

CP10EA0004 

COMPLAINANT, 

V. FDMS NO. 

FAA-2011-0290 

EMPIRE FLIGHT ACADEMY, 

RESPONDENT 

Wednesday, 

March 14, 2012 

Via Teleconference 

The above-entitled matter came on 

for hearing, pursuant to notice, at 10:30 a.m. 

BEFORE: 

THE HONORABLE J.E. SULLIVAN, 

ADMINISTRATIVE LAW JUDGE 

APR - 5 2012 

HEARING DOCKET 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W. 

WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
APPEARANCES: 

On Behalf of the Complainant: 

ZACHARY M. BERMAN, ESQ. 

of: Office of the Regional Counsel, 

AEA-7 

Eastern Region 

Federal Aviation Administration 

1 Aviation Plaza, Room 561 

Jamaica, NY 11434 

(718) 553-3258 

On Behalf of the Respondent: 

GREGORY S. WINTON, ESQ 

of: The Aviation Law Firm 

One Research Court 

Suite 450 

Rockville, MD 20850 

{301} 294-8550 

ALSO PRESENT: 

John Zaremba 

Priya Krishna 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
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P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: 

(10:35 a.m.) 

We' re on the 

record in the matter of Empire Flight Academy. 

This is Docket No. FAA-2011-0290. Today is 

Wednesday, March 14, 2012, and the parties 

have convened for an expedited telephone 

conference prior to the hearing that's 

currently set at the end of this month. 

Present on behalf of the FAA is 

the attorney of record, Zachary M. Berman. 

Present on behalf of the respondent, Empire 

Flight Academy, is its attorney, Gregory S. 

Winton, who has filed a notice of withdrawal 

of appearance. It's in the court's file . 

Also present on behalf of Empire 

Flight Academy is John Zaremba. And, Mr. 

Zaremba, could you identify what relationship 

you have with the company? 

MR. ZAREMBA: I'm one of the 

owners. 

JUDGE SULLIVAN; Okay . Thank you 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
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Also present at the Office of 

Hearings is Priya Krishna, an attorney intern 

who is observing this proceedings this 

morning. 

Good morning, everyone. 

MR. ZAREMBA: Good morning. 

MR. BERMAN: Good morning. 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: I called an 

expedited conference. Thank you so much for 

being available on short notice. I just 

returned from a travel and found the notice of 

withdrawal of appearance signed by Mr. Winton 

that was filed with this office on Friday, 

March 9, 2012, and we need to chat about that 

a little bit. 

Mr. Winton, it was a concern to me 

for several reasons, first and foremost 

because as I read the FAA regulations, any 

motion to withdraw is done by motion practice 

and is subject to review by the administrative 

court. 

In addition , i t appeared tha t 

(202) 234-4433 

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COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

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there was no certificate of service on your 

client, nor was there any indication of who 

would be taking over the case, particularly 

given the fact that the hearing is set, well, 

less than two weeks from today's date. 

I'm so delighted that you have Mr. 

Zaremba on the phone with you, hence some of 

those matters can be taken up and addressed 

today. 

So, let me talk with you first, 

Mr. Winton, in terms of your withdrawal 

notice. I take it that Mr. Zaremba or someone 

else from Empire Flight Academy was served 

notice of this notice of withdrawal at the 

'same time it was served upon this court and 

Mr. Berman? 

MR. WINTON: Correct, and you are 

correct in that I did not put that on the 

certificate of service, but I' ve been in 

direct with Mr. Zaremba throughout, so he does 

have a copy of that notice of withdrawal. 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Is it your 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W. 

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understanding that Mr. Zaremba is going to be 

acting as the representative of the company 

from here on out, or is there an attorney in 

the wings that you've been working with in 

terms of providing documentation and other 

matters so that that new representative can be 

prepared to go to trial at the end of this 

month? 

MR. WINTON: My understanding is 

that there will be no other counsel 

representing Empire Airways -- I'm sorry, 

Empire Flight Academy. And the issue really 

comes down to a financial issue, and that's 

why Mr. Zaremba had instructed me not to do 

any additional work on this matter other than 

trying to settle the case, which we've been 

trying to do for the last probably eight 

weeks, Mr. Berman and myself. 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: In terms of the 

case preparation for trial, as you know, the 

court has recently been served by the FAA 

attorney with the witnesses and exhibit list 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W. 

WASHINGTON. DC. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
1 that was filed with this office on March 5, 

2 2012. 

3 The litigation order that was 

4 issued quite some time ago basically gave some 

5 due dates to both parties to do that, and I 

6 have not received any materials from you or 

7 your client. Can you identify what compliance 

8 you've had so far with that litigation 

9 procedural order in terms of exhibit list and 

10 all of the exhibits that you're planning to 

11 file or that they are planning to file? 

12 MR. WINTON: That's correct. 

13 There has not been any submission by Empire 

14 Flight Academy through myself or otherwise. 

15 I had been asked by Mr. Zaremba, the 

16 representative from the company, not to spend 

17 any time or resources, especially legal fees, 

18 on litigating the case for defense, because we 

19 were putting all of our efforts toward 

20 settlement. 

21 The financial disclosure had been 

22 provided to the agency through the Department 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
1 of Justice financial disclosure form. A 

2 profit and loss statement had been provided to 

3 the agency, per request by Mr. Berman. And 

4 the last thing he was waiting for were the tax 

5 returns. I put him in direct contact with the 

6 CPA that has been retained on behalf of the 

7 Flight Academy, and those conversations have 

8 been taking place without my input between Mr. 

9 Berman and the accountant. 

10 Mr. Zaremba asked me to do nothing 

11 further with regard to litigation because, 

12 again, that would cost more money that the 

13 company just doesn't have to pay. 

14 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Is your client 

15 aware that the status of the case as of now is 

16 that client is not in compliance with the 

17 litigation scheduling order and potentially 

18 could be prevented from raising any defense 

19 for failure to comply with the litigation 

20 procedural order? 

21 MR. WINTON: I explained to him, 

22 and we certainly can ask him this, that work 

(202) 234-4433 

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COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
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needed to be done if we were going to go to 

trial, and he told me that he did not intend 

to go to trial, because that was just not --

it was not in the budget. 

Again, keep in mind, this case was 

originally brought against Empire Airways, 

another company in which he has an ownership 

interest. It was eventually withdrawn. We 

did receive attorneys' fees -- some attorneys' 

fees. And then the case was brought against 

the Flight Academy. 

He feels, again, that it is not 

the responsibility of his company, but he 

spent well over $10,000 or tens of thousands 

of dollars to defend these matters over the 

last two years, and there's just no more money 

left. 

So, he is aware that no defense 

has been put together for the hearing, and I 

don't know if either he or anybody from the 

company even intends to show up if a hearing 

does take place. 

(202) 234-4433 

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COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
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JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Let me 

then turn to Mr. Berman. Mr. Berman, do you 

have any objection to what is a motion to 

withdraw by Mr. Winton? 

MR. BERMAN: No, I'd just like to 

-- but I would like to correct something that 

Mr. Winton said. He indicated that there were 

discussions about settlement and I asked for 

information to prove their claim of inability 

to pay, and one of the things I requested was 

recent tax returns. 

And Mr. Winton gave me the phone 

number of his accountant, of Empire Flight 

Academy's accountant, and I contacted this 

accountant and he promised me he would provide 

tax returns, but he didn't. And then I 

contacted Mr. Winton to tell him that, and he 

said he'd take care of it, and I haven't heard 

back on the tax returns. 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. 

MR. BERMAN: But I have no 

objection to the withdrawal of counsel. 

{202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON. D C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
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JUDGE SULLIVAN: Thank you. 

What I' m going to do then, is 

this. I'm going to turn to Mr. Zaremba while 

Mr. Winton is on the telephone. Let me ask 

you if you have any objection to your 

attorney's motion to withdraw? 

MR. ZAREMBA: No, I don't. I 

don't have any money to pay him, so I don't 

want him to work for free. I mean, he can if 

he' d like, but I don' t think he' s going to 

work for free. 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: And as 

understand it from what Mr. Winton has said, 

you are going to be the person that is the 

point person or the representative for the 

company if he is allowed to withdraw. 

MR. ZAREMBA: That's correct. 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: Can you identify 

for us what your mailing address is and what 

your phone number is that you would like to 

utilize as the address and phone number of 

record? 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

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MR. ZAREMBA: The address and 

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phone number of record is Route 109, Hangar 3, 

Republic Airport, Farmingdale, New York 11735 , 

and the phone number is 631-777-2514. 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: And because I 

need to write all of this down while you're 

talking --

MR. ZAREMBA: Okay. 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: -- I'm going to 

ask you to repeat that and say it just a 

little bit siower. You lost me after Route 

109. 

MR. ZAREMBA: Okay. It's Empire 

Airways, Route 109, Hangar 3, Republic 

Airport, Farmingdale, New York 11735. 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: Could you spell 

the name of the city for me, please? 

MR. ZAREMBA: F-A-R-M-I-N-G-D-A-LE. 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: So I have Route 

109, Hangar No. 3, Republic Airport, and it's 

Farmingdale, F-A-R-M-I-N-G-A-L-E? 

(202) 234-4433 

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COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W. 

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E. 

MR. ZAREMBA: D-A-L-E. 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: I'm sorry, sir? 

MR. ZAREMBA: F-A-R-M-I-N-G-D-A-LJUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. 

MR. ZAREMBA: The word "farm" and 

the ending "ing" and then the word "dale." 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: Got it. Thank 

you. And the ZIP code's 11735? 

MR. ZAREMBA: That's correct. 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: Phone number 631-

777-2514? 

MR. ZAREMBA: That is correct. 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: And, Mr. Zaremba, 

are you a lawyer or are you acting as a 

layperson? 

MR. ZAREMBA: Layperson. 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: Do you have any 

request from Mr. Winton before he' s allowed to 

withdraw for any documents that he may have in 

his possession that you would need to continue 

representation of your company ? 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

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MR. ZAREMBA: I have no idea what 

documents he has. 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: Well, let me 

suggest some. There are various orders that 

this court has issued in this cas e since it 

was assigned to the Office of Hearings. There 

are various other documents that both Mr. 

Winton and Mr. Berman have filed. One would 

consider that to comprise the basics of the 

court file. 

Typically, if an attorney 

withdraws the attorney would pass on the 

documents that have been obtained and kept in 

the course of litigation. So have you 

received from Mr. Winton his copy of the 

litigation file? 

MR. ZAREMBA: No, I have not. 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: Mr. Winton, why 

don't I turn, then to you? I know that you 

have said that you have expended most of your 

effort in trying to address settlement 

matters, but you ideally will have a type of 

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COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

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litigation file which contains the orders 

issued by the court, motions that have been 

filed and so forth since this court took 

jurisdiction of the dispute. 

Is there any particular reason why 

you would not be able to transfer that 

material to Mr. Zaremba as he takes over the 

case from you? 

MR. WINTON: No, there's no reason 

at all. I can certainly do that. 

But, Judge, if I may, I think the 

most valuable use of everybody's time 

including the court, obviously, would be, 

toward a resolution of this case, Mr. Berman, 

on behalf of the agency, has never indicated 

lack of willingness, should I say, to try to 

resolve the case. It's just really a matter 

of all of us relying upon a third-party CPA 

who is just now getting all the tax records 

together. 

Mr. Berman is right . I did tell 

him I would look into it. I was promised the 

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tax records last week. I still haven't 

received them. Mr. Zaremba may be able to 

answer that. 

But I think, Your Honor, if you 

were to grant a continuance I really do 

believe that all the parties will work toward 

a resolution and there will be no reason for 

you to travel to New York and spend the money 

and time to litigate the case. 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. I 

understand that, but one of the things that 

I'm required to do when an attorney moves to 

withdraw is to ensure that all of the matters 

in terms of service on the client, 

substitution of the representative, notice to 

all parties of what that representative's 

address and phone number might be, the 

exchange of documentation for litigation if 

settlement is not successful, takes -- is 

taken care of so that when I authorize your 

withdrawal you can leave and not need to ever 

come back . 

{202) 234-4433 

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COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

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MR. WINTON: Right. 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: So, I'm just 

trying to take care of those basic things now 

so that those are completed and resolved 

before we j ump into the next course of 

business, which could be a motion by your 

substitute, essentially, for continuance, a 

discussion of whether or not there are grounds 

to do that and whether or not there' s any 

resources available through this office to 

assist the parties with settlement. 

As you know, traditionally, at 

least in my practice, I do not participate as 

a settlement conference judge in the cases in 

which I've been assigned as the trial court, 

because I think there's an inherent conflict. 

I don't think that the parties can freely 

discuss settlement if in fact I'm going to be 

hearing evidence if settlement fails. 

Because we have some resource 

deprivation here in this office, I don' t 

currently have a full-time attorney assisting 

(202) 234-4433 

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COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

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me who could potentially have a Chinese Wall 

built for the purposes of acting as a 

settlement conference facilitator. I do have 

Ms. Krishna, who is serving as a volunteer 

intern, but her services are limited because 

of that. 

So, let me get back to the 

question of just the transference of case 

file. Mr. Winton, when do you think you can 

transfer your file over to Mr. Zaremba? 

MR. WINTON: It will be Fed Ex'd 

out of my office this evening to the address 

that he just gave you on the record. 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Is there 

anything else that you can think of that you 

can do as the attorney moving to withdraw to 

facilitate both the ease of Mr. Zaremba' s 

transference into the representation role --

MR. WINTON: Yes. I would be more 

than happy on a pro bono basis. Judge, to act 

as an ABR facilitator working with Ms . Krishna 

from your office. I think between the two of 

(202) 234-4433 

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COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W. 

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us we can get these parties together and 

resolve the case at no cost to the agency. 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: I think there 

would be an inherent conflict for you, Mr. 

Winton, to serve as a facilitator in a 

settlement proceeding over which you were an 

advocate for one of the parties. But thank 

you very much for your offer. 

You are welcome, of course, to 

continue to consult and advise your client, 

soon to be former client, in any capacity that 

the two of you privately want to arrange. 

MR. WINTON: Right. 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: Mr. Zaremba, let 

me turn next to you. It sounds like Mr. 

Winton will be Fed Exing the file to.you so 

that you should have it by tomorrow. Is there 

anything else that you can think of that you 

might need from him as the departing 

representative in terms of taking care of this 

case? 

MR. ZAREMBA: No, I don ' t thin k 

(202) 234-4433 

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there's anything else I would need. 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Mr. 

Zaremba, have you talked to Mr. Winton before 

the beginning of this conference about all of 

the different litigation deadlines that have 

been set by this court for the purpose of 

litigation in the event that settlement fails? 

MR. ZAREMBA: Not entirely, no, I 

have not. 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. 

MR. ZAREMBA: I know that there's 

a trial set. I don't know exactly what the 

date is, and I don' t know what the 

requirements are on that, or the prerequirements to that. 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. 

Mr. Berman, let me turn to you. 

You've indicated that you don't object to Mr. 

Winton being allowed to withdraw. There has 

been a motion raised by Mr. Winton on behalf 

of his client for a possible continuance. 

What would be the ramifications to you if such 

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a motion was made by Mr. Zaremba? 

MR. BERMAN: I wouldn't oppose it, 

partly because I myself have a personal 

conflict, theoretically, that week. I have --

assigned to this training course and 

theoretically going to have somebody else in 

the office handle this case. But it' d be 

preferable if, since I've been handling it the 

whole time, that I handle it, so I wouldn't --

for that reason alone I wouldn't object to a 

continuance. 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: Mr. Berman, 

having heard the colloquy of the court with 

both Mr. Winton and Mr. Zaremba, do you have 

any other questions or concerns about Mr. 

Winton's request to withdraw? 

MR. BERMAN: No. 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Mr . 

Winton, thank you very much for your presence 

today. I will grant your motion to withdraw. 

You are hereby no longer of counsel for Empire 

Flight Academy. 

(202) 234-4433 

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COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

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And, sir, you're welcome to hang 

up the phone if you like and depart from these 

proceedings, or if you would like to stay on 

the line as an observer you may do so. Do you 

have a preference? 

MR. WINTON; I'll Stay on the line 

if you don't mind. Thank you, Judge. 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: You're welcome. 

Mr. Zaremba, let' s turn to you. 

You are now the official representative of 

Empire Flight Academy. Let's start with what 

you don't quite know. 

On November 22, this court issued 

an order setting litigation dates and 

procedures. This was based on a telephone 

conference that had occurred the day before, 

on November 21, 2011. 

At that time your attorney and Mr. 

Berman appeared by telephone and talked about 

all the different litigation dates and 

deadlines that they were going to comply with 

in order to be ready for a trial or a hearing. 

{202) 234-4433 

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COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE . N W. 

WASHINGTON. DC. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
23 

1 In this particular order that was 

2 issued on November 22, 2011, the trial dates 

3 or the hearing dates were set for March 27, 

4 2012 through March 29, 2012, in the New York 

5 City area. That essentially is 13 days from 

6 today, beginning on Tuesday, March 27, 2012 

7 and ending on Thursday, March 29, 2012. 

8 The hearing location itself was 

9 set as a court order on December 15, 2011, at 

10 the Long Island Courthouse in Central Islip, 

11 New York. 

12 According to the litigation order 

13 that was issued on November 22, 2011, both you 

14 and Mr. Berman - - and when I say you I' m 

15 talking about your client. Empire Flight 

16 Academy -- were supposed to have served each 

17 other no later than March 2, 2012, with the 

18 names and addresses of every witness you 

19 intended to call for the hearing, a short 

20 statement of the testimony that you wanted to 

21 obtain from the witnesses, and a copy of all 

22 the documentary exhibits that you intended to 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
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offer and that were premarked according to 

this order. 

Mr. Berman has done that. He has 

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court. And, as I mentioned earlier in this 

conference, you client has not done that, 

which means that you're in a perilous position 

to go to hearing at the end of this month and 

think that you're going to be successful. 

I've heard from Mr. Winton that he 

thinks it might be a good idea to have a 

continuance of this case. I've heard from Mr. 

Berman that he would not oppose such a motion 

if you chose to make it. Would you like to 

postpone the case? 

MR. ZAREMBA: Yes, I would. 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. How much 

time do you think you're going to need to 

finish working out the settlement negotiations 

that Mr. Winton has started on your company's 

behalf? 

From what I hear from Mr. Berman 

(202) 234^433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
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he's still waiting to get some tax materials 

from your accountant, and really that's your 

responsibility to give to him, not his 

responsibility to hunt up for you. Any 

thoughts about how long that would take? 

MR. ZAREMBA: I was on the phone 

with the accountant yesterday. He told me he 

has two years done and he was going to contact 

Mr. Berman directly, and I don't think that 

that's happened. 

It's possible at this point that I 

may have to employ another accountant, because 

this one has been doing it now for three 

months and it isn't done yet. He is a CPA. 

He has been the accountant for my companies 

for over 20 years, and what the issue is here 

I can't tell you. I really don't know. 

However, I' ve been told that two 

years are done, 2009 and '10, and he's only 

working on '11. Mr. Berman says he wants all 

three years. If the two years are in fact 

done I can probably get those to him within a 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W. 

WASHJNGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.neakgross. com 
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day or two. 

Beyond that I can't tell you when 

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accountant. I'll probably have to hire 

someone else, and now it's tax time, so it'll 

probably take me a while. 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. 

MR. ZAREMBA: If you'd like. Your 

Honor, I can give you the accountant's name 

and you can contact him yourself --

JUDGE SULLIVAN: No, no. 

MR. ZAREMBA: - - to verify what 

I'm telling you. 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: No, no. I will 

leave that to you to do. But thank you for 

the offer. 

What I'm going to suggest is this. 

I'm going to ask you, Mr. Zaremba, and you, 

Mr, Berman, to have a private phone conference 

between now and, say, in the next 10 days or 

so. 

I will grant the motion t o 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
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continue, and I'm going to ask the two of you 

to talk privately about a new litigation 

procedural order, and essentially, Mr. 

Zaremba, this is called a CR 26 planning 

conference, where you meet privately with the 

opposing side and talk about all the different 

due dates and deadlines for litigation. 

What you want to do when you get 

the file from Mr. Winton tomorrow is take a 

look at the order setting litigation dates and 

procedures that was mailed out to everybody on 

November 22, 2011. 

That's going to tell you the 

different litigation dates and hearing dates 

that your attorney had originally talked about 

with Mr. Berman and then confirmed and 

discussed with the court last year, and those 

are the kinds of dates that I'm going to be 

setting up again for you and Mr. Berman in the 

event that settlement is not successful. 

In the meantime, I'm going to ask 

the parties to take a look at their calendars. 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W. 

WASHINGTON. DC. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
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and I'm going to set up a new telephone 

conference so that we can come back on the 

phone after the two of you have talked 

privately and reschedule the hearing dates, 

the evidentiary exchange due dates and the 

other deadlines that we are essentially 

postponing today. 

In addition, we can also then talk 

about at the next conference whether or not 

there are any resource s available in this 

office to assist the parties in terms of a 

settlement. Right now it doesn't look 

promising, but I' m going to check with a 

couple different people here and see if 

there's anyone available that might be able to 

assist you. 

So, Mr. Berman, turning to you 

first:, and I'm going to pull up my calendar as 

I speak to you, how much time do you think 

you're going to need between now and a second 

telephone conference to confer privately with 

Mr. Zaremba about new litigation dates and 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W. 

WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
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deadlines? 

MR. BERMAN: Well, I'd also like 

to have time to -- I was hoping that with more 

time with it and we see the tax returns maybe 

we could work out a settlement. So I'd ask 

till like the latter part of April. 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: No, no, I'm 

sorry, I didn't make myself clear. I'm going 

to reset the hearing date, and then the two of 

you can engage in settlement negotiations 

while you prepare for trial at the same time. 

So, I'm asking you how much time 

you're going to need to talk to Mr. Zaremba 

privately about new litigation dates before we 

have a second telephone conference? I thought 

maybe in the next two weeks you'd be able to 

have a private discussion. 

MR. BERMAN: Yes, we could do --

yes. Well, I'11 be going out of town March 

26, so I'd like to try to do it by next week, 

March -- the Thursday of the --or Thursday is 

the 22"^ 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W. 

WASHINGTON. D.C 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
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JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Mr . 

Zaremba, do you' have time available next 

Thursday, the 22"^^, to have a second telephone 

coj^if erence? 

MR. ZAREMBA: That'll be fine. 

Your Honor. 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Mr. 

Berman, do you have any blackout time on the 

2 2"^^ that would not work for you? 

MR. BERMAN: I' m free the entire 

day. 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Why don't 

we plan for 1:30 in the afternoon? And this 

will be for one hour, Eastern time, and this 

will be for a second essentially litigation --

MR. ZAREMBA: You're going in and 

out. Your Honor. 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: I'm SO sorry. 

MR. ZAREMBA: I think you said 

1:'30 on the 22"^ for one hour. 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: I did, and I'll 

repeat that. It would be Thursday, March 22, 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W. 

WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
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2012, 1:30 to 2:30 in the afternoon Eastern 

time, and what we' 11 be doing is we' 11 be 

setting up new litigation dates and 

procedures. 

And prior to Thursday, March 22, 

2012, I expect Mr. Berman and Mr. Zaremba to 

talk privately with each other by telephone to 

discuss what they think would be an ideal 

period of time between today's date and 

whatever date in the future you're looking at 

to try and get all the materials for 

settlement, if settlement is going to be 

possible, and then to look at your calendars 

and say, "If settlement fails, when do I want 

to finish my discovery? When do I want to 

submit my witness list and proposed exhibits 

to go to trial? When do I want to show up at 

Islip, New York, for the hearing itself?", and 

so forth, so that when we reconvene together 

with the court reporter next Thursday, March 

22, 2012, you will have addressed most of 

those privately with each other. 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N W. 

WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 www. nea Irgross. com 
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to you? 

Honor. 

Mr. Berman, does that make sense 

MR. BERMAN: Yes. 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: And Mr. Zaremba? 

MR. ZAREMBA: That's fine, Your 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: Mr. Zaremba, do 

you need any assistance from this court to set 

up a telephone conference with Mr. Berman, or 

have you had some good success privately 

making phone calls and connecting with each 

other? 

MR. ZAREMBA: I can get in touch 

with Mr. Berman. That won't be a problem. 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. 'Then what 

I will do, respectfully, is, again, I will 

cancel the March --

[interruption to telephone 

conference connection] 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: Yes, let's see if 

I have everybody on the line. Is the court 

reporter there? 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W. 

WASHJNGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross. com 
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COURT REPORTER: Yes, I'm still 

here . 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: And Mr. Berman? 

MR. BERMAN: Yes. 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: Mr. Zaremba? 

MR. ZAREMBA: Yes. 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: Mr. Winton? I 

think I lost Mr. Winton. 

MR. ZAREMBA: I think so, too. 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: Yes. Since Mr. 

Winton has bee n grante d a withdrawal, I'm 

going to proceed without him, since I'm just 

finishing up. I will simply cancel the March 

27, 2012, March 28, 2012 and March 29, 2012 

hearing dates. 

I will confirm that the parties 

are going to reconvene next Thursday, March 

22, 2012, by telephone, at 1:30 p.m. Eastern 

time for additional proceedings, and during 

that time we will be resetting the litigation 

dates. In the meantime, I'll look forward to 

talking to you in a week. 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
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Mr. Berman, starting with you, is 

there anything else that we need to address 

for your client today? 

MR. BERMAN: No. 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: Mr. Zaremba, 

turning to you, is there anything else that we 

need to address for your client today? 

MR. ZAREMBA: No. The only thing 

I would like to tell Mr. Berman is that I'll 

be in touch with him by Friday via telephone, 

I just want to give the accountant another day 

or two to get the stuff together, see if we 

can get that done before we speak. 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. And, Mr. 

Zaremba, just so that you know, the proper 

protocol is to answer the court's question 

first and then to ask the court if you may 

address the opposing side. There's lots of 

different --

MR. ZAREMBA: Thank you, Your 

Honor. 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: You're very 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W. 

WASHINGTON. DC. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
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welcome. 

So, Mr. Zaremba, again, is there 

anything else that I can assist you on behalf 

of your client today? 

MR. ZAREMBA: No, there is not. 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. And it 

appears that you've given a message to Mr. 

Berman. Mr. Berman, did you hear that? 

MR. BERMAN: Yes, I did, but I 

note that I will not be in on Friday. Monday 

would be a better day. 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. 

MR. ZAREMBA: That's fine. 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: The sides 

communicated with each other without the 

court's permission, but I'll grant that. Mr. 

Berman, in the future, if you have a message 

to give to the opposing party you want to ask 

the court for permission first before you 

speak to the other party. Does that --do you 

understand? 

MR. BERMAN: Yes. 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
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MR. ZAREMBA: I think we might've 

lost - - oh, okay, he's there. 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: I'm sorry? 

MR. ZAREMBA: I thought we had 

lost Mr. Berman. There was another noise on 

the phone. 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: No, Mr. Berman is 

present. 

So it appears that our business is 

complete. I'm going to thank you all very 

much for your presence today. With that, we 

can go off the record, and I wish you all a 

good day. 

{Whereupon, at 11:09 a.m., the 

foregoing matter was adjourned.) 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
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Nea l R. Gross & Co. 

202-234-443 3 

I n c . 
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Nea l R. Gross & Co. 

202-234-443 3 

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Neal R. Gross ^ Co. , 

202-234-4433 

Inc . 
Page 41 

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Nea l R. Gross & Co. , Inc . 

202-234-443 3 
42 

CERT I FICAT E 

This is to certify that the foregoing transcript 

In the matter of: Empire Flight Academy 

Before: US DOT 

Date: 03-14-12 

Place: teleconference 

was duly recorded and accurately transcribed under 

my direction; further, that said transcript is a 

true and accurate record of the proceedings. 

Court Reporter 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202)234-4433 WASHINGTON. D.C 20005-3701 www realr^foss com