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 U.S. DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY

 APPLIANCE STANDARDS AND RULEMAKING

 FEDERAL ADVISORY COMMITTEE

 MANUFACTURED HOUSING WORKING GROUP

 December 1, 2014

 3:04 PM - 4:30 PM

 Department of Energy

 Office of Hearings and Appeals

 950 L'Enfant Plaza SW

 Washington, DC 20585

Reported by: Natasha Thomas

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1 A P P E A R A N C E S

2 JOHN CYMBALSKY

3 DOUG RAWALD

4 KELLEY KLINE

5 JEREMIAH FREEEMAN

6 ANDREW DELASKI

7 JOHN CASKEY

8 THOMAS ECKMAN

9 ASHLEY ARMSTRONG

10 KENT PETERSON

11 ALEX KROWKA

12

13

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17

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22
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1 TABLE OF CONTENTS

2 AGENDA ITEM/SPEAKER: PAGE

3 Recognize Contributions of Members with

 Terms Ending, Update on ASRAC

4 Membership Package 5

5 Regional standards Enforcement Negotiated

 Rulemaking Discussion and Vote on

6 Working Group Term Sheet 6

7 Manufactured Housing Negotiated Rulemaking

 Discussion and Vote on Working Group

8 Term Sheet 46

9 Discussion of Next Steps and Possible New

 Working Groups, Vote on Forming New

10 Working Groups (if applicable) 57

11 Open Discussion to Public 76

 (No questions posed)

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22
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1 P R O C E E D I N G S

2 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay, everyone, this is

3 John Cymbalsky at DOE. Looks like we have a

4 pretty good turnout on the phone so we're going to

5 get started here. So first of all, let me thank

6 everyone for dialing in.

7 We have established a quorum so anything

8 we do today will meet the needs of our charter of

9 ASRAC in terms of voting.

10 I also want to thank members of the

11 public who may have dialed into the webinar for

12 joining us. We welcome you and we'll give you a

13 chance towards the end of the meeting to have any

14 comments you might have.

15 If you could mute your phones while

16 you're not speaking that will be helpful on our

17 end, getting a little feedback. Thank you, seems

18 to have improved.

19 Okay. So in front of you here today,

20 you'll see the agenda we've sketched out for

21 today. Personally, I don't think we'll need all

22 the time but we'll see how it goes. We've
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1 budgeted two hours for today's meeting. I'd like

2 to first start off by thanking a few of our

3 members who will be leaving ASRAC. Today is

4 actually their last day so for those who have

5 joined in and it is your last day, I want to thank

6 you personally for participating and those three

7 members are Tim Cassidy, Steve Cousins, and Kent

8 Peterson. All three of you, the Department

9 personally appreciates your help in being on

10 ASRAC. I hope you found this a worthwhile

11 endeavor and I know the Department thanks all

12 three of you for taking the time out of your busy

13 schedules to be a part of this group. I think

14 we've really moved forward on lots of different

15 subjects and again, thanks for your contributions.

16 I'd also want to say that we're still in

17 the midst of moving our membership package so, you

18 know, we'll have three people leaving. Of course,

19 we'll have to add some more people to the group

20 and so we have put out a Federal Register notice a

21 few months ago soliciting new nominations and

22 we've moved the package forward here in the
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1 building to get signed by the Secretary. So he

2 reviews these packages and he's in the midst of

3 doing that. We're hoping within a month or so to

4 get those new members on board but we will

5 continue to update the group on the progress

6 there.

7 And unless anyone else has anything they

8 want to say at the outset, we're going to get

9 right into the content here. So if anyone else

10 from ASRAC has anything they want to raise here at

11 the beginning, feel free.

12 (No response.)

13 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay, I think we'll move

14 along. So one of the working groups -- you can

15 see the second agenda item here was regarding

16 Regional Standards Enforcement and so we had a

17 working group that met many times over the summer

18 to hammer out a deal here. I'm going to turn it

19 over to Doug Rawald, who was the DOE lead on this,

20 and he will walk you through a little PowerPoint

21 here on what the group came up with and then we'll

22 take a vote and have questions/answers after that.
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1 MR. RAWALD: Okay. This is Doug and the

2 theme that we heard very early on in discussing

3 the enforcement part of dealing with the regional

4 standards for central air conditioning was that

5 everyone agreed they want something simple,

6 understandable and yet able to have an actual

7 effect in ensuring that we get the energy savings

8 that we all agreed we wanted to get here by having

9 regional standards in the first place. So we

10 focused ourselves on a couple of different areas.

11 If we can get to the next slide because I can't

12 get this to

13 UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, try it now.

14 MR. RAWALD: Okay. So we broke it up

15 into some just very different ideas. First, we

16 went through some basic concepts. We talked about

17 how to keep the public aware. We thought about

18 different training tools we want to implement, how

19 people report violations, what we would require

20 folks to do as far as retaining records, what the

21 Department would do if they found that something

22 had gone wrong, different labeling ideas and then
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1 also how manufacturer would be held liable for

2 this.

3 Let's talk first about the basics. The

4 linchpin of our whole entire process was on the

5 idea of how we would interpret the 14 SEER or the

6 EER for the SW Region, what that really meant.

7 And so what the group agreed was the least

8 efficient rating combination for a specified model

9 of condensing unit must be 14 in the SE and SW

10 Regions. So what that means is that any

11 condensing unit that was being sold in the South

12 must not have a certified combination from its

13 manufacturer below 14. That really helps simplify

14 the process of trying to figure, okay, what would

15 be compliant and not simply by looking at the

16 unit.

17 Now we also carried that concept forward

18 to the EER, so least efficient rating combination

19 for a specified model of condensing unit must meet

20 the minimum EER requirement in the Southwest as

21 well, so same concept just to EER that you have

22 for the SEER.
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1 So as I explain, any condensing unit

2 model that has a certified combination that's

3 below the regional standard cannot be installed in

4 the region, so that's the baseline. And a

5 condensing unit model certified below a regional

6 standard by the manufacturer of that condensing

7 unit cannot be installed in a region to regional

8 standards even with an indoor coil from an ICM or

9 an air handler combination that may have a

10 certified rating meeting the applicable regional

11 standards. In other words, just because, you

12 know, a manufacturer of a condensing unit has a

13 combination out there certified by an ICM with an

14 indoor coil that brings it above 14, that

15 condensing unit still can't be used in the South

16 or the South -- Southeast or Southwest. So that

17 was the basic linchpin of the while entire unit

18 was that we all agreed to the specs for one -- one

19 party abstaining to it.

20 From there, we also discussed different

21 definitions that were important to us on concepts

22 that were not previously defined by the
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1 Department. So we looked at the different parties

2 that were undefined. First was the contractor and

3 so we defined it be a person other than an

4 manufacturer or distributor who sells to or

5 installs for an end user a central air conditioner

6 subject to regional standards. So we had the

7 chain then basically of the market being the

8 manufacturers, distributors, and then the

9 contractor as they defined here.

10 Now a particular type of contractor, we

11 defined the dealer and that was important because

12 the statute refers to dealers. But essentially,

13 we defined a dealer to be a type of contractor

14 generally with a relationship with one or more

15 specific manufacturers. So a dealer, for all

16 intents and purposes, would be a contractor.

17 It was also important for us to kind of

18 just agree to what would be actually installation

19 of a unit. This is important because the whole

20 idea of regional standards are premised around

21 installation. So installation we agreed would be

22 the connection of the refrigerant lines and/or
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1 electrical systems to make the central air

2 conditioner operational. Once again, we sought

3 for definitions that would be broad enough to

4 cover everyone we wanted to cover and also be

5 simple and understandable to the folks that would

6 be covered by these different terms.

7 We also wanted to make sure that we

8 described in the preamble that internet sales

9 would be captured underneath different definitions

10 depending on what was going on. So an internet

11 seller selling to a contractor would meet the

12 definition of distributor and an internet seller

13 selling to an end user would meet the definition

14 of a contractor, and so we're going to have to

15 spell that out in any rule is what the government

16 -- is what the group asked that we do.

17 Now the group asked a lot about public

18 awareness and so DOE agreed to establish a webpage

19 with information on regional standards and to

20 allow folks to link that from their own websites

21 so consumers and other folks in the marketing

22 chain could get information about what's going on
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1 in the regional standards.

2 We also developed a consumer information

3 tri-fold and are putting together a one-page item

4 for distributors to also put on their calendars

5 that could be given out. So the consumer

6 information tri-fold would be used by contractors

7 when they go into a house to explain to a customer

8 why they have to get a certain level performing

9 item and help them explain it's the law. And so

10 we thought that would be very helpful to them, so

11 we developed an idea here. We floated it with the

12 group. They approved it and that's currently

13 working its way through DOE approval process now.

14 We also are going to accepting

15 complaints through email so we're going to put a

16 link to the ability to send that email on our

17 regional standards webpage.

18 Talked a little bit about training and

19 everyone in the industry pretty much came to the

20 table and said, hey, we're willing to participate

21 in training, so manufacturers, distributors,

22 contractors will all conduct their own training
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1 and DOE, once we have a rule in effect, will do a

2 webinar explaining what that rule is and how it

3 applies for folks to -- who are being regulated to

4 understand really what their obligations are.

5 Now a big issue was how does the

6 Department become aware of possible violations of

7 the regional standards, and we all agreed the most

8 important aspect would be to accept recorded

9 violations, most like from either a servicing

10 contractor going into a home or a home inspector

11 going into a home or a knowledgeable consumer

12 looking at a unit and how would they report that

13 thing. And so DOE will accept complaints through

14 their Enforcement inbox, where we currently accept

15 complaints for all enforcement issues. And we'll

16 all set up a voicemail box for complaints to be

17 called in from those that don't want to use email

18 or don't have the ability to do so. Just like we

19 do in every other enforcement case, we're going to

20 give the complainant confidentiality to the

21 maximum that we can and we will look into all

22 credible complaints. So anything that actually
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1 has any ability for us to follow up on, we will

2 follow-up on to at least look into further.

3 We were asked to consider the

4 possibility of doing proactive investigations and

5 so what the workgroup agreed to was the following

6 language would be "If funding is available, DOE

7 will consider conducting a survey of homes in any

8 region to determine if a noncompliant unit has

9 been installed." So that's something that, you

10 know, obviously due to funding limitations, we

11 can't guarantee anymore than that, but this is

12 what the group agreed to at least put forward as

13 some language to include in the preamble of a

14 possible rule.

15 Now when DOE initially offered this

16 premise in 2011, the idea of regional standards

17 enforcement, we discussed a lot of reporting

18 requirements. That seemed to be the most

19 burdensome issue was what would folks be required

20 to report. So in an effort to reduce the burden

21 on people who are compliant but still allow them

22 to be records kept so we could possibly
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1 investigate cases wholesomely, we agreed in the

2 group to have a pretty robust record retention

3 requirement depending on who you are. So

4 contractors/dealers being the last person in the

5 chain before a consumer would have to keep records

6 for any installation they do in the Southeast or

7 the Southwest only. So in installations in the

8 regions where they have a standard higher than the

9 national standard, they would have to keep the

10 records. And it would depend on what they install

11 for the records they keep. For any split system,

12 they'd have to keep the outdoor condensing unit

13 manufacturer model and serial number; and for the

14 indoor coil air handler, the manufacturer and

15 model number, so not the serial number. This

16 would not include replacement coils such as

17 uncased coils. For single-package air

18 conditioners, they'd have to keep the manufacturer

19 model and serial number. Now we heard from a lot

20 of contractors or from the contracting lobby

21 groups that these are things that some contractors

22 keep already through receipts or other things, so
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1 there shouldn't a whole lot of extra added paper

2 burden to this. They also need to keep the

3 location of the installation, the date of the

4 installation, and a party from whom they bought

5 the parts they installed from so basically, if

6 they bought it from a distributor, who that was

7 they bought it. So they need to keep track of

8 their receipts.

9 Distributors have a different

10 requirement in that for split-systems, they need

11 to keep the outdoor condensing unit manufacturer

12 model and serial but nothing for the indoor units

13 at all. The single- package, they need to keep

14 the manufacturer model and serial number and then

15 for all units, they need to keep the date it was

16 bought from the manufacturer, who they bought it

17 was, the date it was sold and who they sold it to

18 and if they delivered it, who the delivery address

19 would be. Now when talking to distributors, it

20 seemed there was going to be some more difficulty

21 in implementing this in their current systems, so

22 we agreed to implementation date of November 30th
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1 of 2015.

2 For manufacturers, they're going to have

3 to keep records, which they by and large already

4 do, of split-system outdoor condensing units,

5 model and serial number, indoor coil or air

6 handlers, model numbers and then single-package

7 air conditioners, model and serial number as well

8 as when it was manufactured, when it was sold, and

9 who they sold it to.

10 Now, depending on who you are in the

11 chain, you have different requirements for how

12 long you keep the records, so contractors should

13 keep them for 48 months or 4 years; the

14 distributors for 54 months or 4-1/2 years; and

15 manufacturers for 5 years. Now they don't have to

16 keep actives, so if you have electronic records,

17 they can be archived as long as they're readily

18 retrievable when asked for by the Department. So

19 they requirement is that if the Department asks

20 you for a record, you have 30 days to give them to

21 us. And if you can't do it within 30 days, you

22 give us what you've got and you explain in writing
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1 why you can't get the rest and when you're going

2 to get to us and then we may approve a request for

3 an extension.

4 We're trying not to create a requirement

5 which create uniforms or to have a searchable

6 electronic database. I mean if you are keeping

7 all your records by paper and that's what you do,

8 you can keep doing that as long as you're able to

9 get through them and find what you need to find

10 when we ask for it.

11 So, a big issue became well, when can

12 the Department actually ask us for records because

13 records requests can be pretty disruptive to our

14 regular business. What we agreed was that for DOE

15 to ask for records, we have to first have a

16 reasonable believe that there's actually something

17 going on and we have an ongoing investigation

18 happening. So to look at that whether we have

19 reasonable belief, the Department will look at

20 things like whether we have an address for an

21 attempted install or an actual installation of a

22 noncompliant unit or that we have some identifying
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1 information for equipment; you know, whether we

2 have a model and serial number showing it's in the

3 wrong place or we have a picture or a copy of an

4 Energy Guide label, things that actually show that

5 there's something going on here, whether there's

6 actually been repeat complaints with the same

7 party so we know they have a history of being a

8 bad actor, and whether the person who's reporting

9 a violation we have a good history of, they

10 reported things in the past that have been

11 substantiated. These are the kinds of things that

12 would inform the Department, a sign they have a

13 reasonable belief to ask for someone's records in

14 the first place.

15 So once we are investigating something,

16 what will we find? So the question came back to

17 what would make a violation, what would be a

18 violation for the regional standards. And so that

19 depends also on what the -- what your role is in

20 the chain. If you're a distributor and you

21 knowingly sell a product to a contractor or dealer

22 knowing that they're going to go ahead and install
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1 that product in violation of the regional

2 standard, that's a violation. Also, if you're a

3 distributor and you know someone is actually

4 routinely violating the standard and you sell that

5 person the project, that's also a violation.

6 From a contractor point of view, it

7 would be a violation to knowingly install

8 something that you know doesn't meet the regional

9 standards in a region where the standard applies.

10 So, to boil this down, a complete system that's

11 installed that is not certified as a complete

12 system meeting applicable standard, that would be

13 in violation. So you must install systems that

14 are certified when you install a system. Now a

15 system that has been discontinued, you can install

16 it as long as it wasn't discontinued because it

17 was not compliant. If a system was found to be

18 noncompliant by AHRI or by the Department at some

19 point and so it was discontinued, that cannot be

20 installed in the region. That would be a

21 noncompliant installation.

22 Also, if you're simply replacing the
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1 outdoor unit and it's not certified as meeting the

2 minimal 14 standard or the EER standard, that's

3 not compliant. You have to make sure that when

4 you're replacing the outdoor unit that it is with

5 a unit that meets that 14 or that EER standard.

6 And any outdoor unit that has a certified

7 combination less the standard, as we discussed

8 before, can't be used in a replacement context.

9 So what does DOE do when they

10 investigate according to what the group agreed to?

11 An investigation may include discussion with the

12 end user, requests for retained records by any of

13 the parties in the chain, and discussions with the

14 alleged violators. If no violation was found, the

15 Department will issue what we call a case closed

16 letter which is between us and the party simply

17 saying we investigated this matter and we've

18 closed it, there's nothing to go on.

19 If we noncompliant installation in once

20 residence and the party remediates that one

21 violation, say it was a mistake and they

22 mistakenly installed something not compliant and
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1 they fix it before we finish the case, then we'll

2 issue a case closed letter, once again not make a

3 public issue of it. But if we find someone has

4 made a violation and they don't fix that one off

5 violation, we will issue a public notice so folks

6 know that that person has actually violated the

7 regional standards.

8 However, we, once again, want to stress

9 the fact that there's remediation throughout this

10 process. So what does remediation mean? The group

11 agreed there's only one think that could fix what

12 was done wrong, that's to replace a unit that

13 doesn't meet the standards. So if you install or

14 sell a unit that's below the standard, you've got

15 to go ahead and replace that and it has to be at

16 the expense of the party that's in violation. So

17 that was to curb folks from making a warranty

18 claim or in some way trying to pass the buck on

19 mistakes or improper installations. So the party

20 who has made the improper installation has to pay

21 for it and take care of it themselves.

22 Now in order for us to verify the
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1 remediation has been done properly, the Department

2 has to be given the serial number by the installer

3 and then they have to go back and track with the

4 manufacturer and distributors to make sure no

5 warranty claim was made or any of those sort of

6 (inaudible) claims they have there with the

7 distributors. If it's clear, then the Department

8 will issue a notice of remediation and the parties

9 will act as if nothing ever happened as far as a

10 violation.

11 Now if we found someone to be a routine

12 violator, as we'll discuss later, they have to

13 contact my office, the Office of Enforcement, and

14 a person will be listed in the notice letting them

15 know who that person who will, and talk to us

16 about who they can contact to get the product.

17 We'll then contact that distributor and

18 manufacturer and authorize sale for the purpose of

19 the remediation within three business days of

20 talking to the contractor. Once the remediation

21 is complete, they have to give documentations to

22 us -- the Department so we know what they did and
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1 then we'll follow-up with the routine violator

2 within 30 days to make sure they actually followed

3 through with installing the remediation unit.

4 So what is a routine violator? This is

5 an important concept because the statute has said

6 to us that it's a prohibited act for manufacturers

7 to sell to folks who are routine violators. So we

8 talked a lot about in the working group about who

9 is a routine violator. So to determine whether a

10 violator, someone who made a violation is actually

11 a routine violator, DOE will consider a number of

12 factors including the number of violations, the

13 length of time over which they committed the

14 violations, the ratio of compliant and

15 noncompliant installations or sales, the

16 percentage of employees who are committing a

17 violation, the evidence of their effort and intent

18 to commit the violation, evidence of any training

19 or education they have on the regional standards,

20 and any subsequent remedial acts they took to cure

21 violations.

22 If DOE finds that someone is a routine
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1 violator, we'll issue a public notice of finding

2 of routine violation and we'll post it on our

3 website and we'll also blast it to anyone who has

4 signed up for receiving those kind of emails.

5 The group also agreed that in

6 determining a routine violation, DOE shall

7 consider with the routine violation was limited to

8 a specific location. This is important for

9 companies that have multiple locations and it may

10 only be one location that's actually violating

11 where the other ones are compliant. If DOE, in

12 its discretion, finds a routine violation was

13 limited, DOE will in the public notice of routine

14 violation state that the prohibition on sales is

15 limited to that location.

16 Now there's also a right to appeal

17 administratively for the party that's found to be

18 a routine violator. The person who has been found

19 to be a routine violator will have 30 days to file

20 their appeal and then the DOE's Office of Hearing

21 Appeals will receive those appeals

22 administratively and have 45 days to decide
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1 whether or not they accept the finding -- whether

2 they decide to grant or deny the appeal.

3 If someone remediates after being found

4 to be a routine violator, we can then remove them

5 from a routine violator list within 30 days of

6 them completing all remediations. We'll issue

7 such a notice saying, hey, the person's fixed

8 their problem, they're no longer a routine

9 violator.

10 Now labeling was a very important issue

11 and this is important because it provides the

12 public an easy way of deciding if something's not

13 compliant when it's installed. We currently have

14 the Energy Guide label for FTC. That label, the

15 group agreed, is not going to meet our needs given

16 our current enforcement structure. So the group

17 was has gone -- was going to go back and ask or

18 recommend that we ask FTC to initiate a rulemaking

19 to have a simplified label that will meet our

20 needs and be more understandable for the public.

21 Manufacturers also voluntarily agreed to

22 add a label to their outdoor units that will be
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1 ruggedized and near the current nameplate so that

2 it would actually tell you if a unit cannot be

3 installed in an area. And they agreed to the

4 language of install prohibited in Southwest or

5 Southeast or Southeast and Southwest or to the

6 Southwest depending what the unit's standards are.

7 And so that will be very helpful, we think, from

8 all sides in helping to detect noncompliant

9 installations very easily and effectively.

10 DOE is going to talk with us in the

11 preamble for a rule and AHRI is going to make a

12 precondition of their certification program that

13 you actually install this label on your units in

14 the Southeast and the Southwest if they're

15 noncompliant in those regions. And this is all

16 going to be implemented by manufacturers by March

17 1st of 2015.

18 Finally, we discussed well, what could

19 we -- what could the manufacturer be held

20 financially liable for? So if DOE issues a notice

21 of finding of routine violation, manufacturers can

22 be fined for selling product to a routine
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1 violator. Given the fact that it would be very

2 difficult to turn off things immediately, DOE is

3 going to give the manufacturer a grace period of

4 three business days, date of a notice to turn off

5 sales to the routine violator. Any sales after

6 that can be subject to a $200.00 fine. Understand

7 that if the manufacturer takes longer because of

8 certain reasons, DOE will consider that in looking

9 at our possible enforcement of a fine if the

10 manufacturer has made a good faith effort to kind

11 of turn off those sales.

12 Now the part of this found to be a

13 routine violator ahs three business days to file

14 what's called a notice of intent to appeal. The

15 person that notice is to be filed, they say, "hey,

16 still sell for me company, I'm appealing my

17 violation," if they file that notice, then the

18 manufacturer can keep selling to that person

19 during the time that appeal is being filed and

20 being heard.

21 If we still find that person to have

22 been guilty, if the appeal is denied, then the
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1 manufacturer is liable for any sales to the

2 routine violator of product that was below the

3 regional standard. So thins above the regional

4 standard would be okay, but things that are below

5 the regional standard would be -- the manufacturer

6 would be held liable for selling.

7 There was a lot of dispute in the group

8 about what the term "product" really means here.

9 And the group agreed to some preamble language

10 because we couldn't actually come to a consensus

11 on what we meant here. The Department has a

12 particular idea that a product in a statute means

13 the product as defined which is everything within

14 430.32(c) and dealing with central air

15 conditioning and heat pumps. The group agreed to

16 the following language because the rest of the

17 group was not able to come to come to an

18 agreement. The working group had significant

19 discussions on the scope of the term "product" as

20 it relates to statutorily defined prohibited act.

21 The Department explained that it interpreted the

22 term "product" to include all classes of central
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1 air conditioners and heat pumps found within 10

2 CFR 430.32(c). Ultimately, the working group

3 could not come to a consensus on whether the scope

4 of any prohibition on sales could be limited to

5 split system central air conditioners and single

6 package systems instead of this broad

7 interpretation. See the public meeting transcript

8 for October 24th, 2014.

9 Now if a product is determined

10 noncompliant -- so this is a separate idea -- as

11 folks may be familiar, the Department routinely

12 tests products and follows up with them with

13 asking the manufacturer to provide additional

14 product if we think something may be noncompliant.

15 So in the case where we tested a product rated at

16 14, thought it may be below 13 -- or be a 13.5 for

17 example, further testing determined that it was

18 actually a 13.5, what will we do? Well, if the

19 outdoor unit is the reason why it fails, then the

20 outdoor unit is responsible for it and the outdoor

21 unit manufacturer is responsible for all sales of

22 the unit unless they can show some of them were
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1 actually in the region that was in the North. And

2 so the manufacturer bears the brunt of showing us

3 that some of those units were not sold in the

4 south.

5 If the reason why the unit fails is

6 because the indoor unit, when it's an ICM

7 involved, then the indoor coil manufacturer is

8 responsible for all the ICM indoor coils that are

9 sold out there in the South and they'll have to

10 show us which ones were not sold in the South.

11 There was some discussion adding

12 additional prohibitive acts allowing the

13 Department to charge monies to distributors or

14 contractors in addition to manufacturers.

15 Ultimately, we couldn't come to a consensus as a

16 group to adding a prohibitive act and so the group

17 agreed to add the following language to the

18 preamble of any rule. "The workgroup had

19 significant discussion on whether to include

20 additional prohibitive acts and ultimately could

21 not come to a consensus on whether to include

22 additional prohibitive acts. See the transcript
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1 where we discussed that." There was one objection

2 to that -- The only objection to any part of this

3 -- from PACC and they have filed that objection

4 with us explaining why they object and we'll

5 include that within any rule.

6 So finally, everyone agreed to the

7 report as put together from ASRAC but all

8 nongovernmental participants initially approve

9 this report contingent upon the issuance of file

10 guidance on two documents the Department issued

11 early on in the process. These dealt with how to

12 rate and test (inaudible) air conditioning in

13 order to determine actually what the rated value

14 would be. So at the end of the day, everyone

15 agreed to unanimously vote on approval of this

16 report and put to you, to ASRAC for approval to

17 then put together a final rule from the

18 Department.

19 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay. So, thanks, Doug.

20 So that's the presentation for the working group

21 on regional enforcement. At this time, if anyone

22 from ASRAC has any questions for Doug, now is a
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1 pretty good time to ask.

2 (No questions voiced.)

3 Okay. So otherwise, we'll put this up for a vote.

4 What I'm going to do is ask members of ASRAC who

5 would like to vote against accepting the term

6 sheet. I heard some feedback on the microphone.

7 I didn't know if anyone was trying to speak there.

8 MS. KLINE: This is actually Kelley

9 Kline. I did have a few questions I'd like to ask.

10 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay. Getting a little

11 feedback but why don't you go for it.

12 MR. RAWALD: Can we bring the slides

13 back up, Jeremiah.

14 MR. FREEMAN: Sure.

15 MR. RAWALD: It would be easier if you

16 tell us what slide you want to refer to and then

17 that'll help us guide our discussion. Kelley?

18 MR. CYMBALSKY: All right, Kelley, go

19 for it.

20 MS. KLINE: I'm sorry, I'm having

21 trouble with the feedback here. I was not clear

22 on I guess it was slide 33 or 34. I think there
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1 was a lack of consensus about the scope of the

2 product (inaudible).

3 MR. RAWALD: Right.

4 MS. KLINE: What does that mean

5 (inaudible)? What's the (inaudible) of the working

6 group recommendation in --

7 MR. RAWALD: Right. So this is

8 significant because the statute gives us a

9 prohibitive act and the prohibitive act says that

10 manufacturers can be fined for selling product to

11 those folks who are routine violators. So the

12 question became what does that work product mean.

13 And the Department, consistent with our regulatory

14 structure, has interpreted that term to mean the

15 product being central air conditioner or the heat

16 pumps; that's the product that we think it means.

17 The -- some of the working group members

18 wanted to have a more narrow interpretation of

19 that term so they asked to do that. Now the

20 Department had their own legal interpretation of

21 this term so we're sticking with that. But the

22 working group wanted to put in the preamble the
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1 fact that we had this discussion and that folks

2 had different opinions on it and allow the

3 different parties to then comment in the course of

4 any rulemaking about how they felt the word

5 "product" should be defined more narrowly or at

6 least the Department should use their

7 prosecutorial discretion, which they could do, to

8 narrowly construe the term "product" in enforcing

9 these regulations for sales of product by

10 manufacturers to those parties found to actually

11 be routine violators. So in any rule that comes

12 out based upon -- that currently will be decided,

13 the group understands that the Department's going

14 to take this broad scope of the term "product" or

15 the one we feel is consistent with our current

16 regulatory structure but they're going to allow

17 folks to provide comments that ask us to do this

18 more narrowing of the term.

19 MS. KLINE: Okay. Thank you.

20 MR. RAWALD: Sure.

21 MS. KLINE: I (inaudible) what

22 discussion (inaudible) manufacturers (inaudible) -
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1 -

2 COURT REPORTER: I don't understand her.

3 MS. KLINE: That seems exceptionally

4 short given that they may not have any line of

5 sight (inaudible) routine violator.

6 MR. RAWALD: Okay. So we only heard

7 part of that.

8 MR. FREEMAN: Kelley, can we try to

9 maybe ask you to try to turn down your speakers?

10 Maybe that could be the cause of feedback or if

11 you're -- are you dialed in by the phone and

12 connected through the speakers as well?

13 MS. KLINE: Yes, I am.

14 MR. RAWALD: That's better. Well, no.

15 MR. FREEMAN: If you're dialed in on the

16 phone, can you go to your webinar tool and switch

17 it to telephone?

18 UNIDENTIFIED MALE Okay. Maybe we can

19 try now?

20 MR. KROWKA: Now she's muted herself.

21 She has to enter her pin again.

22 MR. RAWALD: Kelley, you need to enter
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1 your pin again apparently.

2 MR. CYMBALSKY: So while we're waiting

3 for Kelley, does anyone else have a question?

4 Alternatively, you can email them quickly to me or

5 Ashley or Jeremiah. Any luck, Kelley? Prefer to

6 answer your questions before we vote on it, so

7 MR. FREEMAN: Kelley, how's that?

8 MS. KLINE: Can you hear me now?

9 MR. RAWALD: Much better.

10 MR. CYMBALSKY: Perfect. All right.

11 MS. KLINE: Okay. Thank you. Sorry

12 about that.

13 MR. CYMBALSKY: That's okay, go ahead.

14 MS. KLINE: My question was just whether

15 there had been any discussion about the three-day

16 time period for a position of no fees on

17 manufacturers --

18 MR. RAWALD: Oh, yes.

19 MS. KLINE: -- given that it's -- yeah,

20 that seems exceptionally short to me given that

21 the repeat violator status would be for a third

22 party that manufacturers may not have line of
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1 sight to.

2 MR. RAWALD: Right. So let's be clear

3 though. So manufacturers can only be held liable

4 for sales to the next person in the chain. So if

5 a manufacturer sells exclusively to a distributor

6 and the distributor sells to a contractor,

7 manufacturers aren't going to be held liable for

8 sales of the distributor to that contractor. So

9 manufacturers have to turn off sales to the next

10 person in the chain that they're dealing with or

11 that are found to be a routine violator. So if a

12 distributor was found to be a routine violator and

13 the manufacturer sold them, they have to turn it

14 off.

15 Now three days is quick but that was

16 negotiated. So the Department's position was zero

17 and the manufacturers asked for more. And the

18 reason why we got that three days is because that

19 seemed like the minimal number of days by which a

20 manufacturer could reasonable turn everything off

21 and yet hopefully avoid a surge in sales. What we

22 didn't want to have happen was someone who was
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1 found to be a routine violator saying well, I'm

2 going to bulk up for the whole season before I get

3 turned off and so they buy within that 7- day

4 window or 8 -- or 10-day window everything they

5 need for the next 6 months. And so the Department

6 doesn't want that.

7 Now we understand that some folks may

8 not be able to technologically turn off all the

9 sales and so if we're bringing an action against

10 the company and they respond and say "Well, hey

11 Doug" -- for example, they're talking to me --

12 "Doug, we tried our best and we managed to sell --

13 we sold, unfortunately, 10 items on the fourth

14 day," we may cut them a break. We have discretion

15 to give them -- I mean according to our penalty

16 guidance to consider the efforts they were taking

17 to turn off sales. But we wanted to have the hard

18 and fast rule only that three day grace period

19 understanding that we may, in our discretion

20 depending on the facts and circumstances, go ahead

21 and consider and mitigate those -- the fine we

22 actually assess.
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1 MS. KLINE: What would the notice

2 mechanism be there --

3 MR. RAWALD: So notice --

4 MS. KLINE: -- for manufacturers?

5 MR. RAWALD: Right. So manufacturers

6 are going to have to sign up for this email blast,

7 right, so -- and that's just like they get the

8 current information we have now on rulemaking

9 activity, they'll receive an email saying "this

10 person was posted as a routine violator." The

11 Department will also post it on our public webpage

12 the day that someone -- the notice goes out so

13 that we have it out there so people can have (sic)

14 about it. So that's -- we're trying the maximum

15 possible to keep people informed of what's going

16 on out there. Anything else, Kelley?

17 MS. KLINE: Were there manufacturers on

18 the working group that had input into the three

19 days and had agreed to that piece of it?

20 MR. RAWALD: Yes. There were seven

21 manufacturers in the group. They were -- they

22 talked about the law. They conferenced about this
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1 a lot plus they also had the AHRI as an industry

2 group there as well. So they were very involved

3 in the discussion, so I would say that the

4 manufacturers understood the consequences. When I

5 explained the -- I mean, you know, listen, this is

6 a negotiated outcome so it's not what everyone

7 wants but it's not what the Department would like

8 in an ideal world either, so I think this is the

9 best compromise we can come up at the time given

10 all the inputs we had.

11 MS. KLINE: Okay, thank you.

12 MR. RAWALD: Uh-huh.

13 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay, anymore questions

14 from the ASRAC committee?

15 MR. CASKEY: John, this is John Caskey

16 and I just -- since you're taking a quasi vote, I

17 just wanted to make sure you knew that Andrew

18 deLaski was also, you know, working through my

19 computer.

20 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yep, we got -- we double

21 counted for the first time in DOE history.

22 MR. CASKEY: (Inaudible.)
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1 (Laughter.)

2 UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, come on.

3 MR. ANDREW: John, this is Andrew. Just

4 to chime in here, I want to thank Doug for his

5 work. I know this is a challenging discussion at

6 times for those who are part of the working group.

7 And I don't know who else on the phone here was

8 participating in this working group but I know it

9 was a diverse working group from who was selected,

10 who we selected for it and I just want to thank

11 everybody who put in a lot of long hours over some

12 very quickly-scheduled meetings in August13 September to get to this consensus, so thanks to

14 everybody who worked hard on this.

15 MR. RAWALD: Thanks.

16 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yeah. I would echo that

17 as well. This is John. I think definitely a lot

18 of people put in some long hours for this one.

19 Anybody else with questions or comments?

20 (Whereupon, no further questions

21 posed.)

22 MR. CYMBALSKY: So at this time, if
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1 there are any ASRAC members who wish to vote

2 against accepting the term sheet, please speak

3 now.

4 (Whereupon, no opposition voiced.)

5 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay, hearing none,

6 we'll say that this motion has passed and that

7 ASRAC has accepted the term sheet developed by the

8 Regional Standards and Enforcement Working Group.

9 And DOE likes to thank everyone who participated

10 on that working group for the positive outcome.

11 We all appreciate it here.

12 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay. We're going to

13 move -- switch gears and release Doug back to his

14 normal day job here. All right. So I'm going to

15 turn it over to John Caskey to sort of introduce a

16 little bit of the Manufactured Housing Working

17 Group and what they were up to over the summer.

18 Joe Hagerman, who is the DOE rep, actually has

19 fallen ill today so I'm going to try to pinch hit

20 for him best I can on presenting this but why

21 don't I turn it over to John for a few

22 introductory remarks as he was the ASRAC rep on
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1 this group.

2 MR. CASKEY: Thanks, John. This working

3 group was, I guess, authorized in July and then

4 between July and, I guess, October had six

5 meetings. And again, it was also, from my

6 perspective, a fairly diverse group of people

7 representing what I thought to be all the major

8 interests in the manufactured housing area. They

9 went through an awful lot of details. In this

10 particular case, we started with the foundation

11 related to the 2015 International Energy

12 Conservation Code, so basically we were looking at

13 that and looking where that was applicable to the

14 manufactured housing section. Then we also had a

15 lot of talk about the HUD standards relative to

16 housing and how they played into this.

17 So the group went through an awful lot

18 of information. They got a lot of analysis we've

19 done to support all this information. There was a

20 lot of discussion about the climate zone maps and

21 how you properly account for that. I think there

22 was a lot of good healthy discussion. It was a
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1 little slow getting started and then we started

2 making some pretty good progress. And I say "we"

3 but it's really the other members on the working

4 group. I was somewhat of an innocent bystander I

5 would say but was able to attend at least part of

6 most of the meetings and I think the group did a

7 good job.

8 They -- our original deadline was

9 October 1 and felt that we were sort of running a

10 little bit behind schedule making good progress so

11 I came to the ASHRAE group to ask for an extension

12 to November 1 and then we had an additional face13 to-face meeting in Denver that worked out very

14 fruitfully over the course of a couple days. So

15 again, I commend the group for sticking with it

16 and going through all this exercise to try and

17 come up with the best recommendations possible,

18 and I think there was pretty much -- very good

19 consensus around everything that was proposed or

20 discussed. I think there was some hold back --

21 and I don't know if the HUD person might be on the

22 phone -- but a little bit of hold back on why you
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1 would need to do this water heaters en they felt

2 that, you know, HUD regulations already had some

3 of this information covered but the, I guess, rest

4 of the working group felt that it was important to

5 move forward with these proposals.

6 So I think that's pretty much it. I

7 complement the group. It worked hard to put this

8 together and I think all the recommendations are

9 well thought and deserve ASRAC's, hopefully,

10 approval.

11 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay. Thanks, John. So

12 this is John at DOE again and yeah, I -- so I

13 attended a few of these meetings myself and, you

14 know, I think John highlighted a lot of the big

15 issues that faced the group. I think one in

16 particular that I remember hearing over and over

17 at some of the meetings was the issue of

18 affordability just because this product tends to

19 play out in a lower income space than maybe we're

20 used to in the appliance standards world, you

21 know, universally. But -- so I thought that was

22 something that was tackled rather well in the
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1 discussions as we went through it.

2 So anyway, this slide here just talks

3 about the charter. John already mentioned that we

4 extended by a month to get to a good solution.

5 The term sheet here, basically the cumulative

6 national energy savings we think is about three7 quarters of a quad for a 30- year period of

8 shipments. So that's kind of how we do things in

9 the appliance standards world in terms of

10 measuring the impact. The assumption was that

11 about 60,000 are shipped annually and operated for

12 30 years and again, we will refine all these

13 numbers as we develop a NOPR going forward. The

14 term sheet essentially realizes about a 20-30

15 percent reduction from today's annual energy

16 consumption for manufactured housing.

17 So again, as John mentioned, to echo it,

18 we hope that ASRAC accepts the term sheet that

19 will through here. So the first big thing and,

20 you know, what John already mentioned in there was

21 working off of the 2015 IECC for residential

22 buildings as it relates to manufactured housing.
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1 So the group went through section-by-section and

2 pulled out the areas that they thought were

3 appropriate to change but here you can see the

4 vote outcome. Out of all the members, we had one

5 no vote and two abstentions so Appendix A the Term

6 Sheet, it contains a line-by-line review of the

7 2015 IECC and makes modifications.

8 Another big issue was the climate zones

9 and I know we spent probably a couple -- a few

10 meetings discussing this but the recommendation,

11 the working group recommends that the energy

12 efficiency standards be based on the four climate

13 zones depicted below. DOE will determine a few of

14 the states when it develops the NOPR so that being

15 Alaska, Hawaii and the territories. And then the

16 working group further recommended the naming

17 conventions, 1A, 1B, 2 and 3. So you can see the

18 map below, we had -- on the first vote, we had one

19 yes and one -- I mean one "no" and one abstention

20 on October 23rd. And then the next day, we came

21 back to rename them and we had two abstentions.

22 So, the thermal envelope pathways to
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1 compliance, this was an important part. We -- the

2 working group recommends allowing both the

3 prescriptive and a performance path option to

4 ensure the energy efficiency going forward. Both

5 thermal envelope compliance pathways would also

6 include additional mandatory requirements. So

7 here we had no "no" votes and two abstentions and

8 that vote was taken early October.

9 And so here is the prescriptive path

10 option. I am not going to, obviously, read through

11 all the numbers in the table, but you can see what

12 the prescriptive would path would be by the

13 climate zone and you can see to the far right,

14 we're still working out some of the details of the

15 glazing fenestration, so the solar heat gain co16 efficient. For this one, we had one "no" vote and

17 one abstention.

18 Next, it's the prescriptive path option

19 following the footnotes for the prescriptive path,

20 we saw below -- again, I'm not going to read

21 through these but here the vote was one "no" and

22 two abstentions. Again, these are all relative to
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1 the table up here.

2 Again, for the prescriptive path option,

3 some U-value alternatives for ceiling, walls and

4 floors seen below. Like the others, we had one

5 "no" and one abstention.

6 Performance path option, the working

7 group recommends that the U-values in Table 6.1,

8 the solar heat gain co-efficient requirement shall

9 be met in addition to the U-value and area

10 weighted average solar heat gain co-efficient

11 South satisfy the glaze fenestration, solar heat

12 gain co-efficient requirements of 5.1.

13 So shorthand, we recommended the

14 Battelle method on the bottom. Again, you can see

15 the U-values for the performance path. Again,

16 here, as with many of the others, on the top, you

17 see one "no" vote, two abstentions, and then on

18 the bottom, one "no," one abstention.

19 So for envelope sealing, so here -- so

20 provide the tightness of five air changes per hour

21 when depressurized to 50 Pascals. The working

22 group recommends that all manufactured homes would
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1 be required to ensure that those four items are

2 met. And we also add the consideration that DOE

3 should conduct testing after the compliance date

4 to assess this -- the effectiveness of the visual

5 requirements. The working group did not recommend

6 direct testing of envelope sealing and here, the

7 vote was a little bit different, 15 "yes," 2 "no,"

8 and then 5 abstentions.

9 And then here's items 5, 6, and 7 for

10 the sealing, again, just adding to what you saw up

11 here. I'm not going to read through every detail

12 here. Same vote.

13 Okay, duct sealing and hot water pipe

14 insulation, the working group recommended duct

15 leakage not be greater than 4 cubic feet per

16 minute per 100 square feet of floor area at a 25

17 Pascal test pressure. And then here we had a vote

18 of 19 "yes," no "nos," 3 abstentions. And that

19 all hot water pipes outside condition space be

20 required to be insulated at least R-3. And the

21 vote there, no "no" votes and five abstentions.

22 So, there are some nonbinding working
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1 group recommendations and I only bring this up --

2 it's not part of, obviously, what's being put

3 forth to ASRAC here today but there were some

4 other recommendations that were made outside the

5 scope of the working group and just thought it was

6 important that we bring these to the attention for

7 future work potentially. So the working group

8 recommended that in the future, DOE charter -- or

9 not DOE but ASRAC charter a new working group to

10 develop recommendations regarding certification

11 testing and enforcement. DOE would support this

12 activity should we bring it forward to ASRAC in

13 the future but at this time, I think we're going

14 to focus on developing the NOPR and maybe bring

15 this back up at a later date.

16 The second item was that the working

17 group recommended that DOE modify the REScheck

18 software application to specifically address

19 manufactured housing. The working group reserved

20 that both inputs and calculation assumptions would

21 require modification to account for the factory

22 construction of manufactured homes. The modified
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1 application would also provide recommendations for

2 equipment sizing. So for this, DOE supports it --

3 the premise based on funding levels so this is

4 something we'll keep our eye on here.

5 And then the working group also

6 recommended DOE consider development of a duct

7 sizing tool potentially based on the Air

8 Conditioning Contractors of America, ACCA manual

9 D. And DOE does not take a position here.

10 We also -- the working group had three

11 recommendations involving building thermal

12 envelope ceiling. This basically asked us to

13 conduct some testing on the air changes, also

14 conduct analysis to assess potential moisture

15 concerns and consider approaches to address the

16 scenario in which exterior surface wall cannot be

17 sealed. So those are the three other things that

18 DOE did not take a position on.

19 And then there were some issues

20 regarding labeling and education. You can see

21 below. And we think we could work with the

22 appropriate folks on the labeling. The group also
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1 recommended DOE work outside of its normal area of

2 regulation to support grants and subsidies,

3 etcetera to increase the efficiency for

4 manufactured housing. Again, more education

5 programs and the working group recommends DOE

6 consider certain revisions to the HUD regulations

7 at subpart F of the CFR. DOE should discuss these

8 recommendations with HUD to address duplications

9 and inconsistencies between the current HUD and

10 DOE's eventual code. And so again, going forward,

11 we will take into consideration all of these

12 recommendations.

13 And then here I'll just throw up the

14 members of the working group but essentially,

15 that's it in a nutshell of what we did. I think

16 the group worked very hard. I think they tackled

17 some pretty big issues that have existed and

18 persisted in this industry, and I commend everyone

19 who participated for really coming together here

20 and coming up with the term sheet.

21 So at this point, I will open it up to

22 ASRAC committee members for questions.
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1 (Whereupon, no questions posed.)

2 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay.

3 MR. DELASKI: John, its Andrew. I don't

4 have any questions. I just would again thank the

5 working group, thanks to John for being the ASRAC

6 rep and to Joe for leading the effort for the DOE

7 and to the other 20-odd members of the committee

8 for what is a very detailed recommendation as when

9 compared to some of others that have come before

10 us, and it's -- clearly, a lot of work went into

11 resolving a lot of difficult or detailed issues.

12 And I guess we're all aware the Department's --

13 how far behind its legal deadline on this one, so

14 it's great that this group was able to come

15 together to help DOE come up with a proposal to

16 fulfill its statutory obligation.

17 MR. CYMBALSKY: Thanks. I would echo

18 that I think. This is very detailed and, you

19 know, DOE saw this is an opportunity for this

20 vehicle to be negotiated, you know, ASRAC being

21 the vehicle to move this rule forward.

22 Okay. So if no one else has any
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1 questions from ASRAC, again, I'll pose the

2 question the same way. Are there any members of

3 ASRAC who would like to vote against accepting the

4 term sheet?

5 (Whereupon, no opposition voiced.)

6 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay. Hearing and

7 seeing none, ASRAC has voted "yes" to accepting

8 the Term Sheet of the Manufactured Housing Working

9 Group. Thanks to everyone for participating on

10 this working group. Again, I think this was

11 another example of a lot of hard work over the

12 course of the summer. I know it's hard to get

13 everyone together but I do -- the Department in

14 particular -- me in particular and the Department

15 appreciate all the hard work here in getting this

16 done.

17 Look for a NOPR on the bookshelf soon, I

18 hope, so thanks. So at this point, we'll switch

19 gears from what we've done to what we -- take a

20 more forward looking look at potential working

21 group formation. So before I do this little Deck

22 I have up here, I think, you know, Joe's not here.
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1 I'm going to try to slog through this best I can

2 but I'd first give the opportunity to any other

3 ASRAC members, if they have any ideas for

4 formations of working groups, it will give my

5 voice a little bit of a break. If anyone else has

6 any ideas for working groups, we'll open it up to

7 you all.

8 MR. DELASKI: John, its Andrew deLaski.

9 I don't have any specific recommendations at this

10 time or proposals for new working groups but it

11 strikes me that it's been quite a while since the

12 ASRAC committee had an in-person meeting and that

13 I think we had an initial when the ASRAC was

14 formed and now with some changes in membership, it

15 strikes me that it would be useful perhaps early

16 in the new year to -- for the ASRAC committee to

17 have an in-person meeting and to use that as an

18 opportunity to flesh out some of the ideas that we

19 floated at some of our earlier meetings but

20 perhaps haven't had the opportunity to fully

21 develop yet.

22 You know, for example, I think John, at
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1 one point, we had raised the notion of working on

2 approaches that would facilitate systems

3 approaches and there were some other ideas that I

4 think were floated Bureau never fully -- never got

5 to the point where -- haven't gotten to the point

6 yet where they sent a charter for a working group

7 and I think that in terms of our charter, as the

8 parent committee, that we should take on this task

9 a little bit more in earnest of developing ideas

10 that would help to guide the department in the

11 program and that we could do that probably more

12 effectively by actually meeting and having an in13 person meeting sometime early in the new year.

14 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yeah. Actually, I think

15 that's a great idea. I think once we get the new

16 members on board is probably a great time to do

17 that. Unfortunately, I can't predict exactly when

18 that package will be signed off on but assuming it

19 gets down this month, I think towards the middle

20 or end of January is probably a reasonable time to

21 have that. Might leak into February but I think

22 that's a good idea.
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1 Did anyone else on the -- does anyone

2 else on the committee think that's a good idea, to

3 try to flesh out some of those ideas?

4 MR. CASKEY: This is John Caskey. I

5 think it's a great idea. I think would be helpful

6 that -- it seemed like at one point, we did a

7 little bit more brainstorming and hopefully

8 somebody kept those notes, so it would be good to

9 distribute that again prior to a face-to-face

10 meeting.

11 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yeah.

12 MR. ECKMAN: This is Tom Eckman. I

13 agree. I think it's a really good idea to friend

14 with the new group, reform and take a look back at

15 potential avenues for moving the standards process

16 forward, so

17 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay. So I mean I'll

18 put that on DOE to make sure that that happens.

19 We really wanted to have this as an in-person

20 meeting and it was evident it was going to be very

21 difficult in a room so once the holidays are clear

22 and we move to the new year, hopefully that won't
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1 be such an issue. So we will make the next

2 meeting an in-person meeting and we will have the

3 new membership on board by then.

4 Any other ideas of working groups anyone

5 wants to float out there? I mean I've been -- you

6 know, I've been having my pulse on a few of the

7 different rulemakings we have going on and I think

8 there are a couple out there that may be looming,

9 a couple, a few but I don't think we're just quite

10 ready there so I won't bring it up. But I think

11 with a little nudging in the new year and some

12 work by DOE of putting out some analysis, maybe

13 we'll get -- you know, get a couple more products

14 into the fold here. That's at least my hope.

15 Okay. So if there's nothing else, I

16 will give the DOE pitch for the creation of a

17 working group. And so this is a little bit -- a

18 little different than what -- you know, it's not

19 an appliance standards per se but a lot of what's

20 attracting attention these days is, you know,

21 connected equipment and, you know, how it relates

22 to standards, how it relates to potential energy
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1 savings and other benefits that typically aren't

2 captured by appliance standards but something

3 that, you know, if done the right way and thought

4 about correctly could provide a good platform for

5 energy savings going forward.

6 So Joe put together this Deck and he

7 sort of champions this effort and so I'm going to

8 do my best to speak for him but I'm obviously an

9 expert in this area whatsoever. But anyway, as we

10 see on the slide here, you know, "What is

11 characterization?" It's the measurement or

12 evaluation of the physical or informational

13 responses that connected equipment can provide.

14 And we can go through some examples here. You

15 know, you can do the physical characterizations

16 and you could do informational and there are lots

17 of different ways, you know, to measure the impact

18 here. But, you know, characterization is a

19 voluntary process. It is not annual efficiency

20 testing or a labeling or a rating program such as

21 Energy Star or test procedure development.

22 Why is it important? So correctly
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1 characterizing connected equipment, doing it

2 objectively, engagement of connecting equipment

3 will enable the integration of intermittent

4 renewable resources at scale, enhance grid

5 reliability while unlocking potential new value

6 streams for homebuilders, homeowners, and

7 operators.

8 Examples of the benefits of proper

9 characterization include helping to establish a

10 scalable market for connected equipment, deliver

11 grid services, informed population analyses of

12 scales effects for utilities to rely on this

13 equipment to deliver services, to protect consumer

14 value, to protect manufacturers -- an example of

15 that is the violation of warranties -- and promote

16 innovation by developing a level playing field for

17 evaluating what services can be delivered through

18 this equipment.

19 So to date we've had a bunch of public

20 meetings on this subject and we've also issued a

21 framework for characterizing connected equipment

22 that you see in the Federal Register. You know,
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1 what we found through these public meetings is

2 that there's a general support for DOE to act as a

3 convener or industry and stakeholders to develop

4 characterization protocols through an open

5 transparent voluntary consensus process. So these

6 are really the main reasons why we think this is

7 something we could form a working group around.

8 So what's the ask? DOE's ask of ASRAC

9 is to form a working group as a vehicle for

10 engaging industry in an open voluntary consensus

11 process to develop characterization protocols.

12 The real idea here is to try to, you know, sort of

13 herd the cats and get everyone moving in a unified

14 direction. We think there is overwhelming support

15 by both industry and industry encouraged DOE to

16 employ a consensus and discussing and develop this

17 area of concentration since it is an emerging

18 area. What we think a charter could look like and

19 achieve consensus on is first, create a

20 prioritized list of equipment for which DOE should

21 consider developing characterization protocols,

22 then complete characterization protocols for two
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1 highest priority equipment types on the

2 prioritized list, create a position paper on the

3 industry's and utility's need for connected

4 equipment which includes a discussion of important

5 sensitivities as identified by industry during the

6 DOE public meeting and comment process. We're

7 hoping to convene over the first 10 or so months

8 of 2015 and propose that DOE seek nominations by

9 the -- for working group members shall be provided

10 to ASRAC no later than December 31st. That should

11 say 2014 I do believe since we want to get started

12 sooner than later. And being ambitious, as we

13 always are, we were hoping that the first meeting

14 can be co-located at the ASHRAE winter meeting in

15 Chicago in late January.

16 So, unless -- I don't think we need to

17 go into the backup slides but that's what we're

18 throwing out there. And I think this slide in

19 particular is the most important so at this point,

20 I'll open up to any questions that the committee

21 may have. Anybody think this is a good idea, bad

22 idea, comfort level?
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1 MR. ECKMAN: John, this Tom Eckman.

2 Speaking from a utility planning perspective, it

3 would be great to have standardized protocols for

4 characterization that industry endorsed, so I

5 think moving forward in this area, whether it's

6 ASRAC or not, is a necessary ingredient of

7 improving grid reliability, reducing costs, and a

8 variety of other things besides taking advantage

9 of what we might be able to do with appliance

10 efficiency as part of that.

11 MR. CYMBALSKY: Thanks, Tom. Anybody

12 else, any reactions? I could see all the people

13 who participated out in Denver in April. I think

14 we've got a good list of people interested in

15 this. I think it's a good way -- you know, could

16 be a good way of moving this process forward,

17 particularly in a setting that there could be a

18 lot of good open back and forth discussion.

19 MR. DELASKI: This is Andrew, John. I

20 also -- I think it's a good idea. I did

21 participate in one on the meetings that DOE held,

22 the one at NREL back in the spring and it struck
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1 me as being a constructive conversation but one

2 that, you know, could benefit from a bit more

3 focus on. I -- one question in terms of how you

4 would scope the working group, I think we've

5 typically -- I think the charter is no more than

6 25 people; is that right?

7 MR. CYMBALSKY: That's right.

8 MR. DELASKI: You know, and this is a

9 topic they could touch on, the interest of a lot

10 of various stakeholders. And I think in your

11 slides you suggested that maybe there would be --

12 the intent would be to focus on one or two

13 products, and it strikes me that that might --

14 which products? What would come first, the

15 working group or the products to focus on?

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, I think our --

17 this is Ashley. I think originally, the idea was

18 that the working group would come first and

19 develop a list and rank the products for which the

20 concentration would be. Now I think we could do

21 that differently. ASRAC could also have a

22 discussion and rank the products and then limit
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1 the working group's actions to the first couple of

2 products that ASRAC feels important just to

3 minimize, I guess, the scope a little bit.

4 MR. DELASKI: Yeah. My thought is that

5 clearly, you need products experts --

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah.

7 MR. DELASKI: -- on the products on

8 which you're going to focus, so

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, I mean I think

10 what you're hearing from DOE is that we need input

11 into the list because we're hearing from a variety

12 of different stakeholders that this is important

13 and obviously, we want to, you know, move down the

14 path of investigating it but we can't investigate

15 all products at once. So I think the ask is which

16 products are the most important or most right for

17 looking into this issue. And maybe ASRAC can

18 answer that question. I don't know.

19 MR. CASKEY: Yeah. So this is John

20 Caskey. So I think pursuing this makes some sense

21 to me. I'm still having a little bit of a hard

22 time figuring out exactly what the scope is. If
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1 the scope is really to try and characterize the

2 connected equipment, then, you know, if there's

3 some sort of protocol or something like that, that

4 makes some sense not to manage the the scope. You

5 start talking about services, I don't know if

6 we're talking about, you know, frequency and

7 voltage stability and things like that. And

8 certainly, that gets into a pretty complicated

9 area pretty quickly and the scope could be pretty

10 comprehensive and we might never make any

11 progress.

12 So, you know, I'm a big believer that

13 the narrower the scope, the greater the likelihood

14 is of coming to some consensus or some conclusion.

15 So for me, I would just need to understand the

16 theory a little bit more and understand exactly

17 what is a reasonable scope that's manageable to

18 bite off and still, you know, create some

19 progress.

20 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yeah, so John, so the

21 first three bullets here that you see on your

22 screen, in the middle section, I mean do you find
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1 these three sub bullets under the working group

2 charter too broad a scope? I feel like the first

3 two seem pretty straightforward and then the third

4 is, you know, just committing to a position paper,

5 not necessarily anything more than that.

6 MR. CASKEY: So that sounds possible or

7 meaningful as long as it doesn't get into the

8 services very much and it just gets into the

9 equipment itself.

10 MR. CYMBALSKY: Right. Yeah, I think

11 we -- they'd have to -- yeah, I mean I think if we

12 sort of have a charter that reads something like

13 this, that -- I see where you're going with your

14 comment and I'm thinking that the working group

15 could probably know quickly whether or not they're

16 going to far afield of where they can get

17 consensus on but

18 MR. CASKEY: Yeah. Then depending on

19 the distribution of participants and the diversity

20 of participants, I mean you can't always have, you

21 know, I make product A so I'm going to lobby to

22 get my product A on the list and some other
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1 manufacturer is going to lobby for their product

2 and somebody else is going to lobby for their

3 product. So if you have a lot of, you know, just

4 manufacturers, it seems like it might be hard to

5 get away from that self-serving -- I hate to say

6 that the manufacturer is sort of representative --

7 but to get away from the self- serving thing

8 about, you know, me wanting to get my product on

9 the list, it may be an uphill battle trying to get

10 those top two highest priority pieces of

11 equipment.

12 MR. DELASKI: But that -- this is Andrew

13 again -- that suggests that as its proposed, that

14 that process may be one that's best dealt with

15 through a working group as opposed to someone

16 dictating it. You know, the working group would

17 have to sort through what are the criteria that

18 you use the products to prioritize. That be one

19 of the tasks that would have to be completed under

20 item two, criteria for prioritization and out of

21 that would fall what equipment type.

22 MR. PETERSON: Andrew, that's a good
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1 suggestion. This is Kent. One consideration

2 might be that you want to have the first working

3 group either work on residential type appliances

4 and products versus commercial or nonresidential

5 if you want to narrow the scope a little bit and

6 focus in on certain products. They are very

7 different.

8 MR. CASKEY: This is John Caskey. So I

9 could certainly support the proposal that we see

10 in front of us here and I think that would be

11 beneficial. Another way to do it, I think that

12 Andrew had sort of touched on it is if we have our

13 face-to-face ASRAC meeting in, you know, say late

14 January or early February, if we could have

15 brainstorming session to go through what the

16 possibilities are and then identify, you know, a

17 couple of the high priority areas and then sort of

18 pass that on as the charter for the working group,

19 that's another way to do it. And I personally

20 don't see that, you know, one way is clearer in my

21 mind than the other, so I could really support

22 either direction. I sound like a politician.
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1 MR. CYMBALSKY: Well, you're in the

2 right town for that.

3 (Laughter.)

4 MS. KLINE: Yes. This is Kelley Kline.

5 Just to build on that and what Andrew said

6 earlier, I think that may be a good approach

7 because I struggle a little bit with the second

8 step in terms of just the working group makeup and

9 having the right people on the committee depending

10 on the product focus at the top -- of the top two.

11 And if we don't know that at the stage where the

12 committee is being formed, I just wonder if we're

13 going to have some trouble finding the right mix.

14 MR. DELASKI: So this is Andrew again.

15 I guess I put that back. I guess maybe this is a

16 question that we would need Joe for but the slide

17 deck said that there was industry support for

18 creating this working group and, you know, I don't

19 know which industry or where is that overwhelming

20 support, right. So I saw the company logo had

21 popped up earlier and there's a suggestion that

22 the meeting be held in concert with the ASHRAE
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1 meeting, so that tells us that, you know, DOE's

2 already done a lot of work through these meetings

3 thus far and you seem to have a sense of who --

4 maybe you already have -- maybe you already know,

5 right, and if you do, then, you know, maybe that

6 would -- you should tell us and if that's the

7 case, then that would -- that might help you to

8 narrow down the scope without the benefit, without

9 needing ASRAC to spend more time on it.

10 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yeah, that's a good

11 point. Unfortunately, I can't speak for Joe and I

12 -- I'm easily ready to say I don't know when I

13 don't know something and I don't know.

14 You know, I do know we've met with a

15 bunch of industries and specific companies on this

16 issue and, you know, looking at these logos,

17 they're the ones that I've -- that I'm familiar

18 with so, you know, I'm happy to take home a little

19 homework and not rush this along if we don't have

20 to. You know, I've heard --

21 MR. DELASKI: That seems wise to me. I

22 think we want to get the right people in working
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1 group.

2 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yeah -- no, I agree.

3 You know, I think if our group, if the ASRAC group

4 in January comes up with the two products, I think

5 that definitely gets rid of some, you know, what

6 John Caskey described early on in a process of a

7 working group. And then from a self-serving point

8 of view, it gives us some fresh blood to put on

9 the working group come January.

10 MR. DELASKI: So this is Andrew again.

11 I also would ask, you know, perhaps for DOE to

12 prepare it with some guidance or your thoughts on

13 what are -- you know, maybe some work done through

14 over the past 12 months, you know, what are the

15 kind of criteria that you'd be recommending that

16 we use to, you know, help select products would

17 get focus. That would help us.

18 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay.

19 MR. DELASKI: You know, I mean certain

20 products just fall out. You know, when I was at

21 the meeting that I attended back in Denver, there

22 was a preponderance of HVAC manufacturers and
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1 suppliers in the HVAC industry in attendance and,

2 you know, maybe that's the focus but I guess I

3 need to hear a little bit more about that.

4 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yep, that's a fair ask.

5 MR. DELASKI: Then John Caskey made

6 another good point here -- a lot of water heater

7 manufacturers as well and I know at least the

8 public material to date, the Department has said

9 it would not want to consider water heaters as

10 part of this process. And the question is that

11 does that still hold or is there a possibility to

12 address water heaters?

13 MR. CYMBALSKY: So what this slide just

14 shows is people who attended the meeting. It

15 doesn't -- don't read into anything more than

16 that.

17 MR. DELASKI: Okay.

18 MR. CYMBALSKY: We certainly don't want

19 to talk about water heaters at the present moment

20 given the open rulemaking there.

21 Okay. So I think we have some homework

22 and I appreciate those comments. I think they are
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1 actually very helpful. So what we'll take back is

2 to develop this set of criteria to help the ASRAC

3 committee to decide in its next meeting if we want

4 to go forward, here, part of the charter would be

5 to list the products that the working group should

6 consider. Did I characterize that correctly?

7 MR. DELASKI: That seems right to me.

8 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay, so running a

9 little bit ahead of schedule. Unless anyone has

10 anything further, it's going to be time to open it

11 up to the public. Anyone else from ASRAC?

12 (No response.)

13 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay. So, you know, I

14 just want to say this could be a record for DOE.

15 We had over 1,000 people on the webinar. Did I

16 read the number right?

17 MR. KROWKA: Fifty-eight.

18 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay. Or I was over by

19 940. I guess we more than double counted that

20 time, John. All right. So we're going to open it

21 up. I don't know how this is going to work with

22 the -- are we going to raise hands? How are we --
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Just raise hands.

2 MR. CYMBALSKY: We're going to raise

3 hands?

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah.

5 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay. So we'll -- you

6 raise your hand and we will unmute you, so anyone

7 from the public, now is your chance. Please raise

8 your hand and we will unmute you.

9 (Whereupon, no questions from the

10 public posed.)

11 Okay. I do not see anyone raising their hands so

12 we're going to conclude the meeting at this point.

13 Thank you, everyone for participating. Thanks for

14 voting on the term sheets. Like I said, in the

15 next few weeks, we hope to get the new membership

16 firmed up. And again, thanks to the three members

17 who have served over the past couple of years --

18 couple-few years. We really do appreciate it. We

19 will let everyone know when the next meeting will

20 be sometime in the new year.

21 UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thanks, John.

22 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay, thank you.
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78

1 UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thanks.

2 UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thanks, John, and

3 good work to the working -- good job working

4 groups.

5 Whereupon, at 4:30 p.m., the meeting was

6 adjourned.)

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22
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79

1 CERTIFICATE OF NOTARY PUBLIC

2 I, NATASHA THOMAS, the officer before whom the

3 foregoing hearing was taken, do hereby certify

4 that the testimony appearing in the foregoing

5 hearing was taken by me in audio recording and

6 thereafter reduced to typewriting under my

7 supervision; that said transcription is a true

8 record of the proceedings; that I am neither

9 counsel for, related to, nor employed by any of

10 the parties to the action in which this deposition

11 was taken; and, further, that I am not a relative

12 or employee of any counsel or attorney employed by

13 the parties hereto, nor financially or otherwise

14 interested in the outcome of this action.

15

16

17

18

 _________________________________

19 NATASHA THOMAS

 Notary Public in and for the

20 STATE OF MARYLAND

21

22
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80

1 CERTIFICATE OF TRANSCRIPTION

2

3

4 I, LUCY T. TURNBULL, hereby certify that

5 I am not the Court Reporter who reported the

6 following proceeding and that I have typed the

7 transcript of this proceeding using the Court

8 Reporter's notes and recordings.

9 The foregoing/attached transcript is a

10 true, correct, and complete transcription of said

11 proceeding.

12

13

14

15 December 4, 2014 _________________________

Date LUCY T. TURNBULL, CET-743

16 Transcriptionist

17

18

19

20

21

22
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$

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ago 5:21

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backup 64:17
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bad 19:8 64:21

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38:2 59:21
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engagement 62:2

engaging 63:10

enhance 62:4
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ensure 49:4 51:1

ensuring 7:7

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foregoing/

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yet 7:6 38:21 57:21

58:6

you'll 4:20

you've 17:22 22:14

Z

zero 38:16

zone 44:20 49:13

zones 48:8,13