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 U.S. DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY

 + + + + +

 PUBLIC MEETING ON THE NOTICE OF

 PROPOSED RULEMAKING FOR TEST PROCEDURES

 FOR RESIDENTIAL FURNACES AND BOILERS

 + + + + +

 TUESDAY,

 AUGUST 18, 2009

 + + + + +

 The Public Meeting convened at

9:00 a.m. in Room 8E-089 of the U.S.

Department of Energy, 1000 Independence

Avenue, S.W., Washington, D.C., Doug Brookman,

Facilitator, presiding.

PRESENT:

DOUG BROOKMAN, Facilitator, Public Solutions,

 Inc.

KARIM AMRANE, Ph.D., Air-Conditioning, Heating

 & Refrigeration Institute (AHRI)

ERIC S. ANDERSEN, Pacific Northwest National

 Laboratory (PNNL)

ASHLEY ARMSTRONG, Navigant Consulting

BELINDA CARR, Energetics, Inc.

ADAM DARLINGTON, Navigant Consulting

LANCE DeLAURA, Southern California Gas Company

 (SoCALGAS), Sempra Energy Utilities

BRENDA EDWARDS, Department of Energy (DOE)

GARY FERNSTROM, Pacific Gas & Electric (PG&E)

CYRIL E. FOWBLE, IV, Lennox International

KYLE E. GILLEY, Lennox International

WILLIAM M. HEALY, Ph.D., United State

 Department of Commerce, National

 Institute of Standards and Technology

 (NIST)

MOHAMMED KHAN, Department of Energy (DOE)

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ALEX LEKOV, Lawrence Berkeley National

 Laboratory (LBNL)

ROGER D. MARRAN, Energy Kinetics, Inc.

KAREN B. MEYERS, Rheem Heating & Cooling

JIM RANFONE, American Gas Association

KRISTEN RAYMOND, Department of Justice

HARVEY SACHS, Ph.D., American Council for an

 Energy-Efficient Economy (ACEEE)

FRANK STANONIK, Air-Conditioning, Heating, and

 Refrigeration Institute (AHRI)

ERIC STAS, Department of Energy (DOE)

JOHN MICHAEL TALBOTT, P.E., Talbott Consulting

JAMES T. VERSHAW, Trane Residential Systems

JENNIFER WILLIAMSON, Pacific Northwest

 National Laboratory (PNNL)

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 TABLE OF CONTENTS

AGENDA ITEM PAGE

Welcome . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .4

Opening Remarks, Introduction and

 Agenda Review . . . . . . . . . . . . . .6

Rulemaking Overview . . . . . . . . . . . . . .9

Brief Opening Remarks from

 Interested Parties. . . . . . . . . . . 11

Rulemaking Steps, Rulemaking History, and

 Discussion of Proposed Amendments . . . 20

Adjourn

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1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S

2 9:04 a.m.

3 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Good

4 morning, everybody. Welcome. This is the

5 U.S. Department of Energy's Public Meeting on

6 the Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Test

7 Procedures for Residential Furnaces and

8 Boilers. My name is Doug Brookman from Public

9 Solutions in Baltimore. Nice to see you. I

10 don't see too many new faces, a few. This is

11 your opportunity to comment on the proposed

12 test procedure and we look forward to hearing

13 from you as the day proceeds.

14 It's our tradition to give

15 everyone a chance to introduce him or herself. 

16 So we'll do this and we'll be testing the

17 microphones as we do. Please, name and

18 organizational affiliation.

19 MR. MARRAN: Roger Marran with

20 Energy Kinetics. 

21 MS. MEYERS: Karen Meyers, Rheem

22 Manufacturing.

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1 MS. RAYMOND: Kristen Raymond,

2 Department of Justice.

3 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary Fernstrom,

4 Pacific Gas and Electric Company.

5 MR. DeLAURA: Lance DeLaura, Sempka

6 Energy Utilities. 

7 DR. AMRANE: Karim Amrane, Air8 Conditioning Heating and Refrigeration

9 Institute.

10 DR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs, American

11 Council for an Energy-Efficient Economy.

12 MR. VERSHAW: Jim VerShaw with

13 Trane.

14 MR. GILLEY: Kyle Gilley, Lennox.

15 MR. FOWBLE: Cyril Fowble with

16 Lennox.

17 MR. STAS: Eric Stas, DOE General

18 Counsel's Office.

19 MR. KHAN: Mohammed Khan, DOE.

20 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: John?

21 MR. TALBOTT: John Talbott,

22 Consulting for NIST.

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1 DR. HEALY: Bill Healy from NIST.

2 MR. DARLINGTON: Adam Darlington,

3 Navigant Consulting.

4 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Did that

5 work?

6 MR. DARLINGTON: Adam Darlington,

7 Navigant Consulting.

8 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: That worked.

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: Ashley Armstrong,

10 Navigant Consulting.

11 MR. LEKOV: Alek Lekov, Lawrence

12 Berkeley National Laboratory.

13 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you.

14 MS. WILLIAMSON: Jennifer

15 Williamson, Pacific Northwest National

16 Laboratory. 

17 MR. ANDERSON: Eric Anderson,

18 Pacific Northwest National Laboratory.

19 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thanks. 

20 Thanks to all of you. Maybe there will be

21 some others joining us as we go on here. I'm

22 going to do a brief review of the agenda and

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1 then we're going to launch right square into

2 the material. I think all of you received, as

3 you registered, a copy of the PowerPoint

4 slides that will be the focus of both

5 presentation and discussion for the day, also

6 a copy of the Federal Register Notice and a

7 statement, I see, from Energy Kinetics. 

8 Following -- well, to the agenda

9 review, immediately following this agenda

10 review we're going to have a brief rulemaking

11 overview and following that overview, there's

12 an opportunity for any of you that wish to do

13 so to make brief summary remarks about your

14 concerns and issues that you wish to raise. 

15 Following that, we will proceed

16 with a presentation on Rulemaking Steps,

17 Rulemaking History and Discussion of Proposed

18 Amendments. We'll take a break mid-morning,

19 probably 10:30 or 10:45ish and then a more

20 detailed presentation, discussion, Q&A, based

21 on the proposed amendments. We'll see how

22 this proceeds. If we need to keep going

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1 passed lunch, we'll take lunch at noon and

2 then following lunch, there's additional

3 opportunity for other issues to be raised and

4 also for individuals to make final remarks. 

5 So that's the plan for the day. I

6 will see -- our intention is to do this

7 officially and still provide everybody a

8 chance to say everything they wish to say. 

9 Okay? So then I'd just ask for your

10 consideration. Please try and keep your

11 remarks focused. Say your name each time for

12 the record. I'm going to be cuing people by

13 name as best I can. Please say your name each

14 time you speak for the record. Get the

15 microphone close to you so we pick this up. 

16 This meeting will be fully recorded. There

17 will be a transcript of the entire meeting

18 available and it will be posted on the

19 Building Technologies website. And so thanks

20 for your consideration. Please turn your cell

21 phones on silent mode and if you can keep your

22 remarks as targeted and focused as possible,

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1 that will help. Okay. 

2 So then Mohammed.

3 MR. KHAN: Good morning, everyone. 

4 Welcome and thank you for participating in

5 today's public meeting on the U.S. Department

6 of Energy's Notice of Proposed Rulemaking on

7 Test Procedures for Residential Furnaces and

8 Boilers. My name is Mohammed Khan and I'm the

9 DOE's Project Manager for this Rulemaking

10 activity. I'll be providing a brief overview

11 of this Rulemaking effort which is in response

12 to the Energy Independence and Security Act of

13 2007 requiring DOE to establish test

14 procedures for measuring the energy

15 consumption of furnaces and boilers during the

16 standby mode and off-mode, off-operations. 

17 Following me will be Mr. John

18 Talbot of Talbot Consulting, Incorporated, and

19 he will be providing details on proposed test

20 procedure amendments. 

21 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary Fernstrom,

22 PG&E. Could you speak a little closer to the

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1 microphone, please? 

2 MR. KHAN: Is that better?

3 MR. FERNSTROM: Yes.

4 MR. KHAN: There are several

5 purposes of today's meeting. First, we want

6 to present the Department's proposed test

7 procedure amendments and explain the

8 methodology, specifically how DOE applied the

9 requirements of the EISA Act in the context of

10 residential furnaces and boilers. 

11 Second, we want to have a two-way

12 discussion. We want to convey the key points

13 and concepts associated with this rulemaking

14 as well as hear and listen to your thoughts

15 and potential concerns. And lastly, we want

16 to describe what are the next steps and what

17 you should anticipate from the Department.

18 I can't overemphasize the

19 importance of your participation today and

20 whatever written comments you might provide

21 us. You're all encouraged to ask questions and

22 add to today's exchange. Additionally,

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1 everyone is invited to submit written comments

2 and please let me remind you that the comment

3 period closes on the 13th of October. Before

4 we proceed, at this juncture we want to

5 provide an opportunity for interested parties

6 to provide their opening remarks.

7 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: As I

8 understand it, one person has requested to

9 speak and we want to provide an opportunity

10 for others that wish to chime in as well. 

11 Roger, do you wish to make brief remarks?

12 MR. MARRAN: Yes, thank you Doug. 

13 Roger Marran with Energy Kinetics. At the

14 back of your handout there's a copy of my

15 written remarks. All right, several points;

16 I think the first thing is I was taking

17 advantage of the statement that said in

18 today's NOPRs, it's tentatively concluded that

19 standby mode and off-mode fossil fuel energy

20 consumption is accounted for and I think that

21 speaks to further direction than I am looking

22 at here.

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1 So the first item is that we

2 believe the current minimum efficiency

3 standard AFUE causes severe restraint for

4 trade and efficiency progress in the

5 residential boiler market. The rating

6 procedure for boilers doesn't properly reflect

7 the real performance efficiency in boilers

8 supplying each of American homes. It's based

9 on the incorrect concept of hydronic heating

10 systems installed operations. 

11 Item two says, "We have been

12 advised in the past meetings that there's

13 almost universal agreement among those

14 required to use the rating standard that the

15 AFUE rating for boilers really needs to be

16 fixed". The current AFUE rating for boilers

17 inhibited the market from advancing

18 significant energy efficient improvements in

19 hydronic home heating systems by consistently

20 overrating the seasonal efficiency of boilers

21 and ignoring the domestic hot water function

22 also.

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1 Item three, the Department of

2 Energy has not introduced an effective rating

3 for combination heat and hot water systems

4 which also offer significant potential for

5 energy conservation improvements. Item four,

6 is in the AFUE test procedure. While

7 indicating a very specific test procedure, the

8 test points reflects a rating essentially

9 equal to steady state combustion efficiency. 

10 A well-run test can actually have a resultant

11 AFUE which is higher than the steady state

12 combustion efficiency. This is supported with

13 several points.

14 The first one, Item 4.1, the

15 procedure doesn't take into account that most

16 boilers are high thermal mass devices. That's

17 changing more so in recent years but still the

18 majority of the sales and as installed,

19 maintain a temperature for much of the heating

20 season. Item 4.2, by maintaining temperature,

21 the subject to standby loss is not accounted

22 for in the test. 

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1 Item three, the test temperatures

2 of 120 and 140 aren't representative of the

3 typical hydronic heating system. Item 4.4,

4 the boilers experience jacket losses both when

5 running and also in standby which occurs for

6 the mass majority of heating season hours. 

7 So, steady state jacket losses can range from

8 two to six percent are not accounted for. 

9 Item 4.5 the Department of Energy has

10 stipulated in the standard it seems that these

11 losses contribute to heating the home even

12 though in most instances, they are not located

13 within the heated space, so jacket losses do,

14 in fact, count as efficiency losses.

15 If we go to Item 4.6 on the

16 following page, the standard doesn't account

17 for energy saving controls and operation that

18 reduce standby losses and increase annual

19 efficiency. So in the current rating system,

20 a lower performing boiler can actually receive

21 a higher rating than a better performing

22 boiler as these factors aren't accounted for. 

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1 So if we move to Item five, for

2 furnaces due to concerns having to relieve

3 pressure from the California Energy

4 Commission, this is going back several years,

5 it was agreed that because of installation

6 location, jacket losses are now deducted from

7 the ratings for furnaces. The standard for

8 furnaces and boilers should be the same. 

9 Item 5.1, the current standard, by

10 not including jacket losses, encourages

11 manufacturers to minimally insulate the

12 boilers. The lack of insulation can actually

13 contribute to higher AFUE rating because it

14 reduces the steady state flue gas temperature. 

15 Item 5.2, in the ASHRAE 124 standard to

16 develop a combined heat and hot water

17 appliance, the application for AFUE for the

18 heating season creates a conflict. The hot

19 water portion of the test, the jacket losses

20 are considered a loss, whereas for the heating

21 portion of the test it considers losses a

22 gain. 

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1 To combine the two tests,

2 obviously, creates an engineering

3 incompatibility. So Item 6, the input/output

4 rating procedure, similar to that envisioned

5 in the forward thinking ASHRAE 155, commercial

6 boiler standard, could provide a definition of

7 jacket loss and improved seasonal energy

8 efficiency analysis. Supporting that are two

9 items. At time of the development of the

10 current AFUE procedure, adequate

11 instrumentation was not economically available

12 for an input/output test. It's my belief that

13 this conclusion was developed only for

14 furnaces.

15 Today, the input/output test can

16 be far more accurate and run on a current

17 procedure -- than the current procedure and

18 should improve accuracy of comparative ratings

19 data. So current water heater test procedures

20 actually do involve essentially input/output

21 test measurements.

22 So Item 6.2 support that is also,

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1 we'd encourage improved insulation of boilers

2 which would represent a significant

3 contribution to energy conservation for all. 

4 And finally, on Item 7, the AFUE's prescribed

5 for boilers and furnaces, although a separate

6 metric should be used to develop -- should be

7 developed to provide better information for

8 consumers due to the energy delivered to

9 conditioned space. There's some inherent

10 differences between the two. 

11 So in Item 7.1 to support that,

12 energy efficiency and renewable energy in the

13 National Renewable Energy Lab report indicates

14 very high efficiency in boiler and hydronic

15 distribution systems and very high

16 distribution losses in conventional ducted

17 distribution systems typically used with

18 furnaces. As such the distribution efficiency

19 can have an overarching impact on the amount

20 of energy that's delivered to conditioned

21 space and the overall energy consumed to heat

22 residences with barium boilers and furnaces as

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1 separate appliances.

2 Item 7.2 says the combination of

3 the appliance efficiency and the respective

4 distribution efficiency would provide a better

5 comparative indicator of annual efficiency and

6 more transparency to consumers. So in

7 summary, between different studies that have

8 been done and reports that are out there, if

9 we take a look at the delivered efficiency

10 really should be incorporated into these --

11 into the test standards to get a better

12 direction for actual efficiency of the

13 appliances.

14 So in a nutshell, we've got some

15 real good opportunities, very good

16 opportunities here to improve overall

17 delivered efficiency to homes and reduce fuel

18 consumption and we really should have a

19 standard that supports the actual performances

20 of the equipment in real life applications in

21 real homes. 

22 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay.

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1 MR. MARRAN: Thank you.

2 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

3 And as Roger noted, this -- his listing of

4 specific issues and concerns are there in the

5 record for everybody to see today. Okay, any

6 additional thoughts, ideas, summary remarks

7 here at the outset before we launch into the

8 content. Harvey Sachs.

9 DR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs, ACEEE. 

10 I'd like to thank Roger for his thought

11 provoking observations on the AFUE test, even

12 if it's on the periphery of our work today,

13 and note that it underscores a much larger

14 issue of the need for updating of our rating

15 methods and standards across the board. I

16 realize the pressures that DOE is under with

17 the Consent Decree but we at ACEEE would hope

18 that we can find mechanisms to work together

19 on rating methods and standards that are a

20 little bit more innovation friendly and

21 reflect a little bit better what we understand

22 today about performance of technologies in the

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1 field, information that just was not available

2 to the developers of these tests a quarter

3 century ago. 

4 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, thank

5 you. Thanks, Harvey.

6 Additional comments here at the

7 outset before we launch into a rather detailed

8 explanation of this test procedure? Okay,

9 proceed, Mohammed.

10 MR. KHAN: This one outlines the

11 steps for the Furnace and Boiler Rulemaking. 

12 It's the Department's goal to be as

13 transparent as possible in its rulemaking

14 efforts and for this particular rulemaking

15 there are three major stages of public

16 interaction. On July 27th DOE published a

17 NOPR in the Federal Register. Today we're

18 conducting the public meeting and following

19 the 75-day comment period, and after DOE has

20 analyzed all received written comments, we

21 will publish the final rule. 

22 Regulatory history, I'd like to

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1 summarize some of the key regulatory points

2 relevant to furnace and boilers. First, on

3 May 12th, 1997 DOE published its current

4 applicable test procedure which includes the

5 AFUE energy factor and heating seasonal

6 efficiency metrics. It's codified at 10 CFR

7 Part 430, Subpart B, Appendix N. Second, as

8 a result of the most recent amendments were

9 applicable energy conservation standards. The

10 current standards were published on November

11 19th, 2007. Please note that this standard is

12 AFUE based and does not specify standby and

13 off-mode electrical energy conservation

14 standards. 

15 These final points regard EISA. 

16 The current rulemaking response to the EISA

17 2007 which directs DOE to incorporate a method

18 for measuring standby mode and off-mode energy

19 consumption into its test procedures. EISA

20 also directs DOE to integrate if technically

21 feasible, the standby and off-mode energy

22 consumption into the regulated metric or other

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1 energy descriptor. 

2 Finally, DOE must consider the

3 most current versions of the International

4 Electric Technical Commission Standards, 62301

5 and 62087 which provide accepted methods of

6 measurement of standby power and energy

7 consumption of electrically powered

8 appliances. I just want to point out that

9 62087 was not applicable because of the

10 products it covers. 

11 Now, this slide presents some key

12 points and summarizes the first four major

13 discussion items in our NOPR. First, the

14 Department's approach involved concerning the

15 EISA definitions for standby and off-mode

16 operation and clarifying them in the context

17 of how residential furnaces and boilers

18 actually function. We've equated the EISA

19 definitions for active mode, standby mode and

20 off-mode to the terminology in the test

21 procedure for on-cycle, off-cycle and off-mode

22 respectively. 

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1 Second, the DOE has determined

2 that the current test procedure already

3 satisfies the EISA requirement for standby

4 mode and off-mode energy consumption as it

5 relates to fossil fuel. AFUE is a current

6 metric and it captures fossil fuel over an

7 entire full year cycle. To satisfy EISA

8 requirement, however, DOE believes it must

9 develop test methods for electrical power

10 consumption and this applies to both fossil

11 fuel and electric furnaces and boilers. 

12 Okay, before John comes up and

13 provides additional details, I want to make

14 some other points very clear. AFUE is the

15 current regulatory metric. This rulemaking

16 does not propose to alter AFUE in any way and

17 does not impact a manufacturer's ability to

18 demonstrate compliance with current standards. 

19 Also, the current energy conservation

20 standards do not stipulate standby and off21 mode. However, standards promulgated after

22 July 1st, 2010 shall incorporate requirements

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1 for both standby and off-mode. John?

2 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes, please. 

3 Frank Stanonik.

4 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik,

5 AHRI. Mohammad, I have a question before you

6 leave. Your second bullet there clearly

7 indicates that DOE felt they had to address

8 the question of fossil fuel standby mode and

9 off-mode energy consumption. If you look at

10 the Energy Independence Security Act 2007, and

11 in particular note that it referenced an IEC

12 standard, I think the -- I'm fairly certain

13 the legislative history would indicate that

14 they were looking at standby and off-mode

15 electrical energy consumption. So I'm a

16 little curious why DOE felt that they had to

17 answer this question relative to fossil fuel

18 because I don't think that was the intent of

19 the Energy Independence Security Act of 2007?

20 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Were you a

21 part of that negotiation, Frank?

22 MR. STANONIK: We were, yes.

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1 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, just

2 wanting to get a little more information

3 there. 

4 MR. KHAN: Okay, I'm going to

5 respond to that and then I'll let general

6 counsel add, if need be, as well. The way we

7 interpreted it, Energy was -- I don't think it

8 spelled out or segregated electrical versus

9 any kind of fossil fuel. So we interpreted

10 that as meaning all forms of energy that any

11 particular covered appliance would end up

12 using. What we were pointing out here is that

13 AFUE already incorporates standby and off-mode

14 for the fossil fuel part of it only but it's

15 the electrical portions that we are proposing

16 here today for measuring in a test procedure.

17 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Go ahead,

18 Frank.

19 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik. And

20 by the way, I agree with the conclusion. I'm

21 just concerned about the possibility that this

22 sets some precedent that this whole question

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1 of standby mode and off-mode somehow needs to

2 look at something other than the electrical

3 energy consumption, which I believe again, was

4 the intent of that change in the law. 

5 MR. STAS: Eric Stas, DOE. I mean,

6 unfortunately EISA has written on it quite

7 broadly. It just says standby mode and off8 mode energy consumption. So if that

9 distinction is there, it didn't make it into

10 the statute. 

11 MR. STANONIK: But it specifically

12 in fact, says -- it references, as you can

13 see, using the IEC standard, whatever the

14 number is which is a standard for measuring

15 electrical energy. So, I mean, well, it's --

16 again, I'd just note that there's some concern

17 about that precedent but we think it really

18 was specific electrical energy. Perhaps

19 there's a way to research that. I don't know.

20 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you,

21 Frank. Gary Fernstrom.

22 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary Fernstrom,

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1 PG&E. PG&E agrees with DOE's interpretation

2 and believes it's important that we consider

3 standby energy use for both gas and electric

4 where those measures are applicable. Clearly

5 in this case, the gas fuel is accounted for in

6 AFUE but there might be a case with standing

7 pilot lights where it might not be. And I

8 think it's important that standby energy use

9 be considered holistically. 

10 MR. STAS: I'll just add one thing,

11 Eric Stas, DOE. I mean, DOE did consider the

12 relevant IEC provisions but the statute

13 doesn't say we're limited just to that. 

14 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. Yes,

15 please, Roger.

16 MR. MARRAN: Yes, Roger Marran from

17 Energy Kinetics. Our opinion is that the

18 standby or the idle losses that are associated

19 with the off-cycle period are not accounted

20 for accurately relative to real world

21 applications. So although it does exist in

22 the standard, it doesn't properly reflect the

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1 real consumption for residential boilers.

2 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. Okay. 

3 So any additional comments on this stream

4 here? No? Okay.

5 MR. KHAN: Thank you.

6 MR. TALBOTT: Okay, my name is John

7 Talbott and I'm a consultant for NIST, helping

8 out on the EISA test procedure amendments. 

9 And I used to work at DOE and I was here when

10 the original test procedures were developed.

11 I'm going to get into the details

12 of what the proposal outlines to satisfy the

13 EISA requirements. The first thing that had

14 to be done is that measurement provisions had

15 to be added to the test procedures and in this

16 case we utilized the international standard to

17 obtain the measurement of the actual power in

18 standby and off-mode. 

19 And we titled them P sub SB for

20 Power in the Standby Mode and P sub Off, the

21 Power in the Off-mode. The second thing that

22 had to be done, we had to add an equation for

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1 the annual standby mode and off-mode energy,

2 energy use and I'll show you that equation. 

3 So that incorporates an actual measure of the

4 standby and off-mode energy consumption. 

5 And then thirdly, we had to

6 integrate that into the overall test

7 procedure. We integrated it into the annual

8 standby -- the annual energy use equations and

9 then also without specific amendment,

10 incorporates itself into an energy efficiency

11 quotient. So we think we satisfied everything

12 that EISA has asked us to do. This slide more

13 or less sums it all up on one slide. We had

14 to make some assumptions along the way and

15 we'll discuss this more in detail but the

16 active mode as defined in EISA can be

17 approximated by a test procedure term which is

18 called burner operating hours. Burner

19 operating hours are generally the on period of

20 the furnace of boiler.

21 The non-heating season can be

22 estimated as the duration of 4600 hours. That

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1 number is in the existing test procedures. It

2 was used for the pilot light accounting that's

3 in the test procedure for fossil fuel, so we

4 said let's use that and we'll have the same

5 accounting across fossil fuel and electricity. 

6 So there's a separate equation that's added to

7 the procedures by today's amendments and it

8 quantifies the annual standby and off-mode

9 electrical energy use and we call it E sub SO,

10 the electrical energy in the standby and off11 mode.

12 And as you can see, it's the sum

13 of two terms and it's the wattage measurements

14 that were mentioned before times their

15 duration across a portion of the year, and if

16 you add it all together, you'll get 8,760

17 hours for the year. So this is the annual

18 accounting of the energy use. So it's not

19 wattage, it's watt hours. And then for the

20 next part of the integration, we incorporate

21 that into the already existing annual

22 accounting of electricity and some of the test

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1 procedure jockeys out here know all these

2 terms but that's all the existing equation is

3 the energy of auxiliary electric, E sub AE,

4 which previously was the first part of this

5 equation, the burner operating hours times the

6 active mode electricity measurements of the

7 blower, the power burner and the electro --

8 the intermittent ignition device.

9 We're keeping those equations just

10 as they are. That's the active mode

11 accounting and we're adding the newly

12 developed standby and off-mode electrical

13 energy consumption. And that's it. Now, the

14 implication there is since E sub AE is used in

15 annual operating costs, the operating cost is

16 going to change. Also, since E sub AE is used

17 in an energy efficiency quotient of energy

18 factor, that quotient is going to change. But

19 remember, energy factor is not the regulating

20 metric. AFUE is and AFUE doesn't change

21 because AFUE does not use an E sub A. We're

22 going to emphasize that again.

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1 Okay, so the next discussion item

2 in the preamble is the discussion about

3 standards and there's much more detail there,

4 but --

5 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Let's pause.

6 MR. TALBOTT: Okay, all right.

7 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, let's

8 pause and see if there are any questions at

9 this point. I've seen more complicated

10 equations. See if there are any questions at

11 this point and then we'll take them. Frank.

12 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik,

13 AHRI. John, the standby mode is defined as

14 essentially the furnace -- well, it's starting

15 the heating season and you don't have anything

16 let's say electrically operating, okay, to

17 include the blower on the furnace as an

18 example. But on a furnace, the typical cycle

19 you have some delay in the blower, right? 

20 MR. TALBOTT: Yes.

21 MR. STANONIK: So when the burner

22 goes off, you're still going to have blower

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1 operating. So the fact that using burner

2 operating hours, is that any significant --

3 are we introducing any significant error

4 there?

5 MR. TALBOTT: That's one of the

6 technical points that we're going to get to

7 and discuss in more detail.

8 MR. STANONIK: Okay, okay.

9 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, Gary.

10 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary Fernstrom,

11 PG&E. So as long as Frank asked that

12 excellent question which was on my mind as

13 well, the furnace normally drives the

14 thermostat and how may or may not the

15 thermostat load be considered?

16 MR. TALBOTT: I'm not sure I get

17 the distinction.

18 MR. FERNSTROM: Well, there's some

19 load placed on the furnace by the thermostat. 

20 There thermostat varies because people use

21 different thermostats than that normally

22 supplied by the manufacturer. So the question

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1 is, in standby mode, how may or may not the

2 electrical load of the thermostat be

3 considered?

4 MR. TALBOTT: Okay, I think there's

5 two points in there. You're asking about the

6 electrical energy to run the thermostat to be

7 accounted for in here. We also are going to

8 get to that in later discussions. It's an

9 important point, but then you're also talking

10 about maybe there's some operational stuff

11 that we might be missing. You have to

12 remember that the AFUE test procedure is a

13 more laboratory based. It doesn't even do a

14 complete cycle. It infers the efficiency from

15 limited testing data and so we're not really -

16 - AFUE doesn't get into the complications of

17 different cycling rates or thermostat

18 controls.

19 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay, I was simply

20 asking about the straightforward electrical.

21 MR. TALBOTT: Just the electrical

22 consumption. We'll get to that.

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1 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, yes. 

2 Jim, right?

3 MR. RANFONE: Jim Ranfone, American

4 Gas Association. Good morning. John, just a

5 question. You said that this new factor is

6 not going to impact the standard level but the

7 E sub SO is going to increase the electrical

8 consumption measurement, correct?

9 MR. TALBOTT: Yes.

10 MR. RANFONE: So that the operating

11 costs will also be changed.

12 MR. TALBOTT: Yes, yes.

13 MR. RANFONE: And will that also

14 impact the emissions numbers when you come up

15 with your final calculations because you will

16 be considering more electrical consumption

17 totally?

18 MR. TALBOTT: Yes, yes.

19 MR. RANFONE: Okay, thanks.

20 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, let's 

21 proceed.

22 MR. TALBOTT: Thank you. Again,

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1 the preamble discussion at this point starts

2 to talk about the -- what -- the relationship

3 with standards. And of course, there are the

4 three major points that EISA outlines for

5 standards for this standby and off-mode issue

6 and first off is that it cannot be included in

7 or determined in compliance through current

8 standards. And since AFUE is not changing and

9 AFUE is the current basis of the current

10 standard, then we're safe there.

11 However, after July 1st, 2010, any

12 final standard shall incorporate standby mode

13 and off-mode energy use into a single amended

14 or new standard. And then it also adds that

15 if it's determined and feasible rather than an

16 incorporated metric, you could use a separate

17 standard. So what we're outlining here is the

18 proposed amendments for us. They don't change

19 AFUE so we're okay on the first point. And

20 that these extra measures that are added and

21 the incorporation into the test procedure will

22 allow DOE to address standby mode and off-mode

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1 in subsequent standards either by an

2 incorporated metric or a separate standard.

3 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Gary

4 Fernstrom.

5 MR. FERNSTROM: So I'm confused

6 about that. If the standby is included in an

7 incorporated metric, would not that be AFUE or

8 are there presently two different metrics that

9 are used?

10 MR. TALBOTT: There's another

11 metric in the test procedure that's not used

12 for standards regulations and it's called

13 energy factor and that would include this

14 extra energy consumption. There could be a

15 possibility that the format of the proposed

16 standard could incorporate an adjustment to

17 the efficiency quotient to account for this. 

18 We're saying that the amendments as proposed

19 today can accommodate that and your comments

20 on what would be the best format would be

21 welcomed.

22 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik.

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1 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Frank,

2 pardon me, let's let Mohammed follow on.

3 MR. KHAN: Mohammed Khan, DOE. I

4 just want to point out that the Department is

5 in its beginning stages of reconsidering the

6 current standards and as we've already

7 indicated, too, after July 1st, 2010, the

8 standby and off-mode needs to be accounted

9 for. So particularly during that period, you

10 know, we invite folks to provide comment on

11 the best ways or approaches to implement a

12 particular descriptor or change to AFUE that

13 would accommodate all of that.

14 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Frank.

15 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik from

16 AHRI and I guess, it is the time to ask the

17 question. As Mohammed just mentioned, I think

18 most of us are aware that the furnace

19 rulemaking has been, in one way or another,

20 remanded back to DOE and I just wonder if at

21 this time DOE has a projected schedule as to

22 when the -- this work would be done. Would it

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1 be before or after July 1, 2010?

2 MR. KHAN: It's going to be after. 

3 So it's going to have to include that to get

4 passed it. That's the answer you're looking

5 for, yes. 

6 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay.

7 MR. STANONIK: Well, not what I was

8 looking for.

9 (Laughter.)

10 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, so

11 additional thoughts before we proceed?

12 MR. TALBOTT: Well, this is where

13 Doug broke at that point appropriately because

14 we were sort of saying, you know, just think

15 through it and the concepts have been

16 presented here. The technical details I'm

17 going to get into next. But the concept is

18 we're adding measurement provisions. We're

19 providing an equation for annual accounting. 

20 We're integrating it into the existing energy

21 use and efficiency descriptors and you already

22 heard that the next standard is probably going

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1 to be after July 1, 2010, so it's got to have

2 something in there about standby and off-mode. 

3 And if you're ready, I think we can go, we'll

4 go to the technical details. It's time for

5 some people to nap. 

6 All right, the first issue is the

7 burner operating hours approximation. We are

8 proposing that burner operating hours, a test

9 procedure measure, can by used to approximate

10 the active mode duration. Some of the points

11 that Frank made are realized that some of the

12 electrical auxiliaries can run differently

13 than the burner itself. However, the burner

14 itself has electrical components and they may

15 be exactly burner operating hours for their

16 run time. And then the ignition device is

17 something less than that. 

18 Typically, the circulating air

19 blower runs longer than the burner does on an

20 average year. There's delay time for the

21 circulating blower to come on and then there

22 is overrun time. You add them up and the Y

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1 factors are the test procedure adjustment for

2 that and they are typically greater than one. 

3 Igniters are way below one. The burner is

4 probably close to one. Taking that all

5 together, without getting into unduly

6 complicated systems of trying to measure all

7 these standby losses separately, why not pick

8 the test procedure value of burner operating

9 hours and let that be the active mode? And

10 then the prorating of the year becomes the

11 remainder.

12 So it's 8,760 hours in a year

13 minus burner operating hours is the duration

14 of standby and off-mode. 

15 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes, Gary.

16 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary Fernstrom,

17 PG&E. I have a comment on that. On the

18 surface, that seems both simple and

19 reasonable. However, the fan energy use is

20 much, much greater than the other auxiliaries

21 you pointed out. So it would make sense to me

22 to try and make some estimate of the fan run

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1 time which is greater than the burn run time,

2 and have a single factor to adjust for that. 

3 MR. TALBOTT: Well, that's similar

4 to what is done. Burner operating hours are

5 adjusted because of these run time

6 differences. So the Y factors that are in the

7 test procedure represents an accurate

8 accounting of those differences for active

9 mode and that's the big issue. Remember the

10 active mode electricity consumption of a

11 fossil fuel furnace is on the order of 100

12 hours. Now, this added standby loss, the

13 previously unaccounted for, is something an

14 order of magnitude smaller. And so is it

15 really worth it to go through the extra ordeal

16 of defining these various differences?

17 Remember some furnaces don't have

18 the interrupted ignition. There are some

19 furnaces that the circulating blower is wired

20 to the burner. All those differences would

21 have to be calculated separately in the test

22 procedure to make that slight little

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1 accounting difference. We haven't discussed

2 in detail where we mentioned where it said

3 about an order of magnitude difference between

4 the duration of the sum of the standby period

5 and off period compared to active mode. 

6 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Frank

7 Stanonik.

8 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik,

9 AHRI. First of all, addressing Gary a little

10 bit, we're talking about the standby so, in

11 theory, when nothing is running and so the

12 question to you, John, and this is perhaps at

13 this point, while certainly your learned

14 opinion but by using burner operating hours,

15 isn't it, I'll say, more likely that we're

16 slightly over-estimating the standby?

17 MR. TALBOTT: Yes.

18 MR. STANONIK: We're saying standby

19 starts when the burner stops, but, in fact,

20 the blower is still going.

21 MR. TALBOTT: Yes.

22 MR. STANONIK: Okay, but we've said

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1 we're not -- and you know, the blower energy

2 gets counted for. That's been always

3 measured.

4 MR. TALBOTT: Yes.

5 MR. STANONIK: So we're saying that

6 when a burner turns off, that's when we're

7 going to start counting standby. It's a

8 slight overestimation of standby period.

9 MR. TALBOTT: That's right. It

10 will be slight overestimated and the magnitude

11 of it is that using a simplified assumption

12 that there's 800 burner operating hours, then

13 the remainder is 7,900 hours and maybe it's

14 only 7,800.

15 MR. STANONIK: This is obviously

16 new to most of us but for this point, we

17 certainly haven't prepared any serious concern

18 that this is significant.

19 MR. TALBOTT: It's a simplification

20 but it's up front and I think it's -- we're

21 just saying it's a justified simplification

22 considering the alternative which would be

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1 multiple measurements associated with the

2 different standby of the blower compared to

3 the burner. It could get very messy quickly.

4 MR. FERNSTROM: So okay, I

5 understand. I was confusing in my question

6 active mode and standby mode. Thank you both.

7 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, thank

8 you, Gary. Harvey Sachs?

9 DR. SACHS: John, I very much

10 appreciate the effort to keep the thing

11 understandable and to keep the measurement

12 requirements as simple as possible. I'm very

13 much in sympathy with lumping all of the

14 electrical elements that are operating at the

15 same time. I have no interest in

16 understanding the blower versus the draft

17 inducer or the control board. At the same

18 time, I worry about some potential for gaming

19 if we're not a little bit careful and

20 particularly things I might worry about and do

21 not yet understand would be things like the

22 ceramic igniters that stay on during the

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1 entire burner cycle, I'm not sure if we're

2 capturing those and those can well be 400

3 watts.

4 MR. TALBOTT: I believe that's in

5 the active mode accounting that's in the

6 existing test procedures. 

7 DR. SACHS: Okay.

8 MR. TALBOTT: It goes a Y factor

9 and it's got the PE Sub IG.

10 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Let's see,

11 you wish to comment on this? No? Okay. 

12 Sorry, John.

13 MR. TALBOTT: Okay. 

14 DR. SACHS: The question is really

15 a hypothetical but what -- at some point as

16 the electronics proliferate, we might not need

17 a trace of electricity used through a complete

18 cycle. Yet, I'm not making this as a formal

19 comment. I'm just not sure that I really have

20 a good insight into what's happening without

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1 burner operating powers is really burning very

2 small. 

3 MR. TALBOTT: Well, no, we're not

4 missing anything that you're mentioning there

5 about the active mode accounting. We're

6 catching it all and that's in the existing

7 test procedure. What we're only focusing on

8 here by making this assumption is how long is

9 the off and standby period? Is it -- out of

10 the 8,760 hours a year, how much is it and

11 this says it's 7,900. And if it should be

12 7,880 because the blower runs a little longer

13 --

14 DR. SACHS: That's very helpful,

15 John. 

16 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay,

17 additional thoughts on this? Okay. 

18 MR. TALBOTT: All right, then

19 there's one complication with this assumption

20 (Laughter). It doesn't work for electric

21 furnaces. Electric furnaces don't have a

22 burner operating test procedures. So we

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1 included equations within the amendments today

2 that allow them to get something like burner

3 operating hours, it's "on hours," and I can

4 just -- this is such an informed group, I can

5 just show you what that equation is. 

6 And it's a -- for electric

7 furnaces and boilers, it has a burner

8 operating calculation which is essentially the

9 old heating load, the old famous 2,080 heating

10 load hours times the regular adjustments and

11 the oversizing, divided by the capacity of the

12 unit in BTUs. And that's an approximation of

13 the on time for electric furnace. And that's

14 what you use to do the accounting in the

15 electric furnace provisions.

16 Okay. The next little technical

17 detail is how are we going to use this

18 international standard, and our reading of it

19 is pretty straightforward. It's only a four20 page standard and we feel that the furnace

21 blower industry is sophisticated enough to

22 handle it. However, we had to make a couple

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1 clarifications and the first one is that for

2 most furnaces and boilers, the standby mode

3 and off-mode, even though the statute asks to

4 make a distinction, sometimes there just isn't

5 a distinction. It's when everything is off,

6 it's the same reading whether it's heating

7 season or non-heating season. And so we say,

8 well, look you don't have to measure it twice. 

9 Just measure it once and you're done.

10 The other clarification we made is

11 that we want to make it clear that what we're

12 trying to capture here and what EISA is

13 intending us to capture is all the possible

14 electrical standby loss in the -- onboard the

15 appliance and not to measure something

16 internal into the appliance that wouldn't

17 capture transformers and control circuits that

18 might not be obvious. So we're saying

19 directly in the provision itself that you have

20 to measure the total standby and off-mode. 

21 And then another clarification we

22 had to do is that the accuracy requirements

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1 spelled out in the International Standard are

2 to be used for this measure and not the

3 accuracy requirements that are in the ASHRAE

4 standard. So just to clarify on that, the

5 ASHRAE standard specifies that electricity be

6 measured with an error no greater than one

7 percent. That's fine for the active mode, the

8 high wattage measurements that are going on in

9 furnace testing and but when we get down to

10 this low wattage measurement, we're deferring

11 to the International Standard for their

12 guidance on how to specify the accuracy and

13 the precision. 

14 And so there are differences there

15 and generally, it's a more precise requirement

16 in the International Standard because it's low

17 wattage and we defer to their judgment on when

18 the wattage is so low that you have to really

19 take some different precision steps. So

20 other than those three clarifications, we

21 think the standard, the International Standard

22 is fine and I think we think the furnace

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1 industry can handle it. But if there are

2 problems, we defer to the experts out there

3 testing furnaces, if they want to send in some

4 clarifying -- further need for clarification

5 or some real problems with that standard, we

6 would welcome them in the comment period.

7 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes, please,

8 Cyril.

9 MR. FOWBLE: Cyril Fowble with

10 Lennox International. The only comment I

11 would have to that is that there is a tighter

12 temperature room ambient condition in the IEC

13 standard than there is in the Furnace Test

14 Procedure Standard. So that's something we

15 need to consider especially now it's five

16 degrees CF.3 in the first Furnace Test

17 Procedure, five numbers, I think. It's closer

18 to 20 so that may be something we need to

19 consider. 

20 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: I couldn't

21 tell from your comment what you were advising

22 the Department to do about that.

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1 MR. FOWBLE: Oh, sorry, I'm

2 requesting the Department to look into the

3 general condition and the temperature, the

4 ambient temperature requirements of IEC 63.01

5 versus what's the actuary Federal Register

6 requirement for instance.

7 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: And would

8 you recommend what they do?

9 MR. FOWBLE: My guidance would have

10 them be the same, if you can make them the

11 same, preferably wider for such a procedure

12 standard. 

13 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. 

14 MR. TALBOTT: Okay, so you were

15 involved in the testing of the furnace.

16 MR. FOWBLE: Yes, yes. 

17 MR. TALBOTT: Yes, and used the

18 ambient conditions in the ASHRAE standard.

19 MR. FOWBLE: Correct, for this.

20 MR. TALBOTT: Okay, and do you

21 think there is any problem with the accuracy

22 of executing the International Standard at

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1 those conditions?

2 MR. FOWBLE: None that I'm aware

3 of.

4 MR. TALBOTT: Thank you.

5 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Well, thank

6 you. Okay, so that exchange was John and then

7 Cyril back and forth a few times for the

8 record. Other comments? Frank, did you have

9 a comment on this?

10 MR. STANONIK: Yes, I did, just a -

11 - Frank Stanonik, AHRI. I have a question for

12 John. And, again, I just -- I guess I want to

13 take advantage of the opportunity to make sure

14 I'm understanding what I think I understand. 

15 The IEC talks about this -- your uncertainty

16 shall be no more than two percent at the 95

17 percent confidence level. Doesn't that imply

18 you're going to have to take multiple

19 measurements of this?

20 MR. TALBOTT: Yes.

21 MR. STANONIK: Okay.

22 MR. TALBOTT: And there's an

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1 appendix in the standard that describes that. 

2 And that's what they feel is appropriate for

3 these low measurements that, take a few

4 measurements and then exercise the statistical

5 techniques, framework.

6 MR. STANONIK: So for all the other

7 measurements for this Furnace Test Procedures,

8 you take a measurement with our precise

9 instruments. And so for this one where we

10 might be measuring maybe a watt or something

11 like that, you're going to take several of

12 them. There seems to be some -- I'll say

13 illogic there but maybe not.

14 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Harvey

15 Sachs.

16 DR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs, ACEEE. 

17 There's relatively little measurement of

18 standby and off-mode energy in the field. The

19 most recent work I'm aware of is by Scott Figg

20 a few years ago and he reported, as I recall,

21 a median for about 30 furnaces in the field of

22 something like eight watts standby and for

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1 those furnaces with permanent magnet motors

2 with feedback, the air handler was an

3 additional four watts, so an average of about

4 12. So when you run those numbers out over

5 8,760 hours, we are talking about an amount of

6 electricity that's in the same order of

7 magnitude as the air handler itself. 

8 So the magnitudes are not trivial

9 to what Congress has asked the Department to

10 do. The question though is, that I didn't

11 hear an explicit answer, maybe I'm just too

12 dense, to Gary's question, that unlike a water

13 heater, the controller for a furnace is

14 typically remoted to a living space, we call

15 it a thermostat, and that's not always under -

16 - the selection of thermostat is not always

17 under the control of the OEM that provides the

18 furnace.

19 The amount of electricity that

20 thermostat draws should be small but depending

21 on the power supply for that 24 volt or

22 whatever it's using, I just -- I don't hear a

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1 specification for how we're including or

2 excluding that thermostat.

3 MR. TALBOTT: Thank you. That was

4 an oversight. We didn't get to that issue in

5 that much detail but the part of the

6 discussion where we said we want the

7 measurement of all the electrical energy,

8 standby and off-mode present, of the

9 appliance, remember this is a program directed

10 at the manufactured covered product.

11 DR. SACHS: I understand that.

12 MR. TALBOTT: Now, that issue that

13 you've raised that the thermostat control

14 energy, may not even be present in the testing

15 lab. They could do the switches by manual

16 control to get through the test procedure. 

17 And there is nothing that the manufacturer can

18 do to improve the amount of energy that that

19 thermostat cycle is consuming. So the only --

20 if we went to capture that and the

21 manufacturers aren't capturing it with this

22 measurement procedure, we would have to add it

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1 in on a representative basis which wouldn't

2 distinguish anything between -- from one

3 manufacturer to the other. 

4 So if we want to put in a default

5 value for the thermostat control energy of a

6 furnace, we could do that, just to improve the

7 accounting. The only thing that EISA is

8 asking for here is what have you not accounted

9 for that is going to be present in that

10 manufactured device.

11 DR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs, ACEEE. I

12 appreciate that but let me sketch out a

13 scenario that's based on a very, very

14 superficial knowledge and I'm hoping that some

15 of the manufacturers and other experts here

16 can help me but one way I can support that

17 thermostat is with an old style 24-volt Bell

18 transformer and that will give me 24 volt AC

19 and some rather significant core losses, 24 by

20 seven in that transformer. 

21 Alternatively, I could move to a

22 solid state device that synthesizes the 24

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1 volt or whatever other form I want for my

2 transformer and greatly reduce those losses. 

3 We see that in various power supplies today. 

4 Because of the national energy use impact, not

5 the individual consumer, we certainly would

6 like at ACEEE to see manufacturers having some

7 small incentive to have the most efficient

8 power supplies possible. I don't know exactly

9 how to do that but I'm not sure it's something

10 we'd just want to sweep away as

11 inconsequential. 

12 MR. TALBOTT: I'd like to hear the

13 manufacturer's experience on how the unit is

14 tested and whether they can capture the design

15 difference in that energy consumption through

16 these test procedures.

17 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Frank

18 Stanonik.

19 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, AHRI

20 and John, I'm not going to talk about the

21 experience but more -- I think the more

22 relevant issue is this is not part of the

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1 furnace or boiler design. The thermostat is

2 not in the manufacturer's control. It's not

3 part of his design. It is -- recognize, it's

4 part of -- a necessary part of the system, but

5 it's never been something that was in the

6 manufacturer's ability to control. And I

7 think you've captured it properly. If you

8 wanted to somehow account for thermostat

9 energy consumption, you'd probably have to

10 come up with just an assumed fixed value which

11 really doesn't make any difference here. 

12 And by the way, I'm not

13 disagreeing with Harvey that, perhaps, there

14 is some need for perhaps a -- I mean, if we're

15 going to look at standby losses or standby

16 energy consumption, perhaps there should be a

17 standby energy consumption criteria for wall

18 thermostats, but I would object to imposing

19 that burden on the furnace and boiler

20 industry.

21 DR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs, again. I

22 very much appreciate that and you may have

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1 helped me, Frank, in a way that you wouldn't

2 have wanted to or imagined. If -- let me

3 agree but disagree that the thermostat is an

4 essential component even though the

5 manufacturer does not select it much in the

6 way the air handler is an essential component

7 of the air conditioning system even though the

8 air handler is not directly controlled by the

9 manufacturer in most cases and we run into

10 that problem on the air conditioner side. 

11 The point that I'm trying to make

12 is not so much the thermostat's electricity

13 consumption because today there is -- there

14 are marketing reasons why I want to minimize

15 that just to minimize the battery backup on

16 these crazy programmable things. What I'm

17 worried about is the inherent losses depending

18 on the power supply, for the thermostat that

19 is an integral part of the furnace. But I

20 think that may be captured --

21 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Let's let

22 this gentleman -- Jim. Jim, say it again. We

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1 didn't hear you.

2 MR. VERSHAW: Jim VerShaw with

3 Trane.

4 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you.

5 (Off-mic comment.)

6 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Jim, you

7 need to get closer to the microphone. Sorry. 

8 Thanks very much.

9 MR. VERSHAW: I think that's -- the

10 power supply is usually in the furnace so you

11 know, we don't have any control over what

12 thermostat goes on there. So you can use --

13 and in the testing process and you asked about

14 that, we usually use manual switches because

15 you're measuring times and whatnot. You don't

16 have a thermostat involved and it just doesn't

17 work out in the testing process. 

18 So it would make sense to me for

19 this measurement of standby loss that we would

20 be measuring just the power that the furnace

21 is using and the thermostat's got a big color

22 screen on it. That's going to take a little

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1 more power but we can't control that and

2 that's not -- shouldn't be part of the furnace

3 standard. But the transformer doesn't get

4 changed out if you change thermostats, so

5 whatever that's sitting there drawing when

6 there's nothing happening is there. 

7 DR. SACHS: Thank you very much. 

8 That's what I was hoping. Thank you. 

9 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you.

10 Gary, do you have a comment or a question?

11 MR. FERNSTROM: Well, regardless --

12 yes, thank you. Regardless how small the

13 thermostat load is, the furnace won't operate

14 without it and I agree, it's beyond the

15 manufacturer's control but I think some

16 assumption ought to be made about it and

17 included because that's part of the real world

18 performance of these things, and that's really

19 what I want to know out of the tests and the

20 standards and the performance information

21 that's published.

22 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, thank

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1 you.

2 DR. AMRANE: Karim Amrane, AHRI. 

3 Before you go, John, I guess I understand from

4 your comment that DOE has not tested furnaces

5 based on the test procedures you're proposing. 

6 MR. TALBOTT: Well, we've got the

7 data from other sources like ACEEE to get the

8 magnitude and Lawrence Berkeley Labs have done

9 some measurements as well. 

10 DR. AMRANE: But whether they're

11 used now, they are --

12 MR. TALBOTT: I don't think there's

13 reports directly using the international

14 standard, you're right.

15 DR. AMRANE: Okay, so are you

16 planning to go to testing?

17 MR. TALBOTT: That's up to DOE.

18 DR. AMRANE: So basically DOE is

19 counting on manufacturers trying test

20 procedures and then that issue is come back to

21 DOE within 75 days?

22 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Mohammed.

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1 MR. KHAN: Mohammed Khan, DOE. 

2 Currently, the Department has no plans for

3 doing any kind of exploratory testing to, I

4 guess, validate, if you will, the

5 appropriateness of the proposed amendments

6 today. But of course, as always, any data,

7 any kind of additional information through the

8 comment submittal process that you would be

9 able to provide is helpful and is needed.

10 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, so

11 then we're moving to the next slide. Yes,

12 Mohammed, you're going to set this one up?

13 MR. KHAN: Actually, no, I thought

14 you were going to do that. 

15 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: So then you

16 can see, this is the final substantive slide. 

17 And you can see the two bulleted points there. 

18 Other than the mentioned clarifications the

19 IEC Standard 62301 is adopted without

20 modification. DOE believes IEC 62301

21 procedure is appropriate for measuring the low

22 wattage that would be encountered when testing

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1 furnaces and boilers and reviewing the IEC

2 provisions.

3 DOE sees no conflicts or

4 difficulties for the F&B industry when testing

5 their products and specifically the Department

6 would seek comment on those two points, the

7 adequacy and appropriateness of IEC Standard

8 62301 in general and whether there's a need to

9 modify the part from the provisions by IEC

10 62301 with regard to residential furnaces and

11 boilers.

12 Okay, this is your chance to make

13 more specific comments related to those IEC

14 standard -- that IEC standard. Harvey Sachs.

15 DR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs, ACEEE. 

16 I guess my only remaining question is an

17 information item. It wasn't clear to me in my

18 reading of the proposed rule because I don't

19 think it's covered, what manufacturers will

20 actually report to DOE and consumers with

21 respect to standby and off-mode electricity

22 released? Will it simply be folded into the

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1 global metrics or will it be separately

2 reported?

3 MR. KHAN: Mohammed Khan, DOE. I

4 guess with any regulatory descriptors, as of

5 right now we have a AFUE. Manufacturers are

6 going to be required to comply with that and

7 then also report that. As to your question

8 about whether it be combined or lumped in with

9 AFUE or be a separate, that's something that,

10 you know, we're still going to be working on

11 as we go through the rulemaking process. But

12 just to be clear, whatever the regulatory or

13 whatever regulation for the standby or off14 mode in addition to the active mode which is

15 now AFUE, will need to be complied with and

16 also reported.

17 DR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs again. 

18 I'm a little confused. Are you saying that

19 manufacturers will report the P sub SB and P

20 sub O to you?

21 MR. KHAN: I'm sorry, those

22 particular values, no, but you know, if for

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1 example, we have a certain value that would be

2 the regulatory value for standby or off-mode

3 is those values that would be reported.

4 DR. SACHS: That would be the time

5 and motion over the year.

6 MR. KHAN: Correct.

7 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Additional

8 comments?

9 No? Go ahead. 

10 MR. STANONIK: If I could go off on

11 something -- Frank Stanonik, AHRI. Mohammed,

12 you indicated that DOE at least at this stage,

13 didn't have any intent to do some of its own

14 testing using 60 -- IEC 62301. And yet, we

15 have determined that when the next -- or not

16 when -- when the final rulemaking of the

17 furnace requirements comes out some time in

18 the second half of 2010, that it will include

19 some -- address in some way the standby

20 consumption. 

21 I see a disconnect there. How

22 will DOE be able to get some idea of what

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1 would be an appropriate standard for standby

2 consumption unless you run some of your own

3 tests to see what is representative of

4 equipment?

5 MR. KHAN: Mohammed Khan, DOE. 

6 Frank, that's actually a very valid point. I

7 guess I really can't answer that with definity

8 for this point but in some manner they

9 probably will investigate that and incorporate

10 in its analysis process as it normally does to

11 come up with a level of a standard which would

12 be deemed appropriate.

13 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Lance?

14 MR. DeLAURA: Lance DeLaura, with

15 the Sempra Energy Utilities. This is not a

16 comment but more of a question. I've heard a

17 lot of clarifying questions and discussion but

18 I guess my question is from the lack of

19 additional discussion is it workable from the

20 customer's perspective? I'm interested for

21 the end use customer. Is any of this

22 rulemaking going to impact our customers

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1 adversely?

2 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: I note that

3 Lance is looking at the manufacturers in the

4 room at this moment. Yes, Cyril.

5 MR. FOWBLE: Cyril Fowble from

6 Lennox International. You know, from our

7 analysis, we fail to see any effects at all. 

8 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, thank

9 you. 

10 MR. VERSHAW: Jim VerShaw with

11 Trane. This is a measurement procedure,

12 right, it has nothing to do with what gets

13 reported, so we'll have to wait and see what

14 comes out in the revised standards and see how

15 that's going to effect customers and

16 everything else. Jim VerShaw again with

17 Trane; one more comment.

18 In reading through this before the

19 meeting, it wasn't clear and it was talked

20 about with the thermostat thing, but I would

21 recommend that the standard be made very

22 explicit on the setup procedure for the

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1 measurement of the standby power. I mean, you

2 look through the international standard and

3 you got A through F of different types and you

4 looking through there and they're talking

5 about breadmakers and radar ranges and the

6 like. And I'm going, I don't see a furnace in

7 here, and if you know how furnaces are

8 installed around the country, sometimes there

9 is a power switch next door, that's Type B. 

10 Other ones have a thermostat, that's Type C. 

11 A thermostat is not in the

12 appliance. So, I mean, I think you need to

13 take a look at that international standard and

14 look at what you're going to finally publish

15 and make sure it's very explicit how everybody

16 needs to test this so that there's no way that

17 somebody can test it differently than somebody

18 else. So it's always done the same way and

19 that seems to be the most gray area that I saw

20 going through there.

21 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Excellent. 

22 I couldn't tell from your comment, is the

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1 international standard as written, is it

2 explicit and specific enough?

3 MR. VERSHAW: No. 

4 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: No, right,

5 okay. And so would you then be able to say

6 that such things that should be listed

7 enumerated?

8 MR. VERSHAW: The standard that DOE

9 publishes ought to be explicit on how to turn

10 the furnace on and off for the power mode and

11 be explicit about the thermostat requirements,

12 whether there is -- either you do it without

13 thermostat or whatever you decide to do. I

14 would recommend you would not have a

15 thermostat on the thing. Just measure the

16 power that the furnace has on standby.

17 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, that's

18 a helpful comment. Thank you. Yes, Mohammed.

19 MR. KHAN: Mohammed Khan, DOE. I

20 appreciate that very much and those kinds of

21 comments specifically are welcome in the

22 written comments. So, please submit those

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1 kind of comments.

2 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes, and I

3 think just to be more specific, the Department

4 would really enjoy as specific as you can be

5 on these points because they rely on your

6 experience. Gary.

7 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary Fernstrom from

8 PG&E. I would agree that it makes sense to do

9 the test without any thermostat connected

10 because it seems like that's the way they're

11 going anyway. However, I think some factor

12 might want to be considered to account for

13 what that energy use might be. And I'd like

14 to make a comment going back to Lance's

15 question about how the outcome of this

16 proceeding may or may not adversely effect

17 customers.

18 I think to the contrary, there is

19 a way where customers can be favorably

20 effected and that would be if the standby

21 power in furnaces could be reduced with say

22 electronic power supplies as opposed to

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1 magnetic transformers as Harvey suggested. 

2 That would reduce annual electric standby use

3 and if that could be properly measured, and

4 then incorporated into the standard, that

5 would be a good thing and something that would

6 benefit customers.

7 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, thank

8 you. Harvey Sachs.

9 DR. SACHS: This is Harvey Sachs,

10 ACEEE. Mohammed, I think that Jim VerShaw has

11 raised a very important point. I have mumbled

12 a little bit to Karim Amrane, who is sitting

13 next to me and we, outside AHRI, are certainly

14 willing to work with the manufacturers on a

15 quick effort to establish the conditions of

16 test, as Jim is suggesting if that would be

17 helpful. We think everybody has a common

18 interest in having that set of rules clear and

19 consistent so we now have a game plan.

20 MR. KHAN: Mohammed Khan, DOE. 

21 Harvey, any such activity like that, that

22 would result in very meaningful and useful

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1 information as always, will be very

2 appreciated. Thank you.

3 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Frank

4 Stanonik.

5 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik,

6 AHRI. Just a different point and I just want

7 to, I guess, confirm something. The

8 definition of the seasonal off-switch, it just

9 says a switch and I guess I just want to

10 confirm that DOE recognizes that might be

11 either a manual or an automatically operated

12 switch? That was a question, not very well,

13 but --

14 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: John, can

15 you take that one?

16 MR. TALBOTT: Okay, I just put the

17 actual provision that's in the test procedure

18 up there. This is what you're talking about

19 now. There may be some clarification or

20 expansion. I would love to see the --

21 recommend something right here, right now and

22 we could mark it up. But we're under the

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1 impression that again, we don't know but are

2 there designs that are clearly marked to say

3 that the summertime use of a furnace not

4 connected to an air conditioner, could be

5 truly off, disconnected from the power source

6 and that's what that's about. And if you have

7 a design feature that exactly does that, and

8 this is a precedent that is already

9 established in all test procedures. 

10 The manual control, gas manual

11 heater, we specify that if there's a switch

12 that says, "OFF" and it's right there, we're

13 not going to measure that off season loss. 

14 And there's a couple other test procedures

15 across a whole suite of test procedures that

16 makes that determination. Similar to that, if

17 you've got a clear enough indication to the

18 user that you can turn this thing truly off,

19 don't measure the -- don't account for the

20 off-mode, standby loss.

21 MR. KHAN: Mohammed Khan, DOE. 

22 Frank, I just want to get to your point about

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1 the definition and whether DOE has any

2 concerns for the distinction of it being a

3 manual switch or an automatic switch. The

4 definition as proposed in 2.9 says, "When

5 activated". It does not make any distinction

6 about how that activation is done. So whether

7 it be manual or automatic, I don't think it

8 matters.

9 MR. STANONIK: Okay, well, thanks

10 Mohammed. That's how I was reading it. I was

11 just kind of looking to make sure that's what

12 the intent was.

13 MR. KHAN: Yes, that's it.

14 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Harvey?

15 DR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs, ACEEE. I

16 understand what this says. I'm trying to map

17 it into my experience and if, for example,

18 there were a hard switch on the furnace that

19 turns it off, I can actually do at my house,

20 that also means I'm turning off the power

21 supply to the thermostat. And if I think of

22 that as a seasonal switch, it's saying, you

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1 can turn it off and come October, you will

2 need to reprogram that thermostat. The day of

3 the round funny one is almost over. That's

4 another story, Jim. 

5 But let me say for the record that

6 my wife and I have had four programmable

7 thermostats in the last 30 years and were able

8 to program the first one. It had little

9 buttons you stuck around the perimeter. My

10 wife has a graduate degree in controls

11 engineering. (Laughter).

12 But leaving that point aside, it's

13 just not clear to me operationally what it

14 means to have a seasonal switch in 2009 and

15 beyond given the level of support the

16 thermostat requires 365 days a year.

17 MR. TALBOTT: But you do encourage

18 its existence if it can be worked out and this

19 provision is encouraging it.

20 DR. SACHS: Okay.

21 MR. TALBOTT: And if it needs to be

22 clarified, that's what we'd be interested in

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1 hearing.

2 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Frank

3 Stanonik.

4 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik,

5 AHRI. To Harvey's question and I suggest

6 maybe it's a little easier if you think of a

7 boiler, and particularly since regulations are

8 in place that not too far off boilers will be

9 provided with what is shorthandily called an

10 outdoor temperature reset, and let's just

11 imagine that somebody is clever enough to

12 incorporate into the outdoor temperature reset

13 something that says, "Oh, if I see a

14 temperature above 60 degrees for X number of

15 days or hours, I'm assuming it's no longer

16 winter", and deactivates the boiler, that

17 would be a seasonal switch. 

18 DR. SACHS: Of course, I'm --

19 Harvey Sachs again. I'm living in Roger

20 Marran's world in which all boilers are

21 integrated with a water heater.

22 MR. STANONIK: Well, they're not

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1 all. 

2 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Mohammed?

3 MR. KHAN: Mohammed Khan, DOE. 

4 Frank, I just want to make a point about the

5 automatic temperature reset control device

6 that you were talking about regarding the

7 boilers. In our definition, when we were

8 talking about the switch, we were talking

9 about a switch that would be integral to the

10 appliance, something that's shipped with it,

11 it's manufactured that way, it was built that

12 way, shipped that way, installed that way. I

13 just want to be clear that I don't think at

14 this point the Department would be recognizing

15 an automatic temperature reset device on a

16 boiler as part of that definition unless it is

17 an integral component of the boiler, meaning

18 that it's going to be supplied with it,

19 installed with it, and that the boiler won't

20 function unless that particular device is

21 connected to it.

22 I actually want to make that

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1 clear.

2 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik,

3 AHRI. I think you just described what is the

4 impending regulation. It will come with it. 

5 The boiler won't operate unless it's installed

6 and I expect the manufacturers will be

7 providing it because otherwise it's an unknown

8 that they, in fact, will now need to control

9 DR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs, ACEEE. 

10 It was, as I recall, a feature that was a

11 consensus among many parties, including the

12 manufacturers and everybody loved it except

13 OGC but that's a political statement.

14 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: The first

15 one of the day. Okay, moving back to the

16 technical content. Roger Marran, yes.

17 MR. MARRAN: Thanks, Doug. Roger

18 Marran with Energy Kinetics, just a follow on

19 statement. One of the things I think that

20 goes back to my opening remarks on this is

21 we're moving forward to have energy saving

22 controls on residential boilers. These energy

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1 saving controls can have an overarching impact

2 on the real delivered energy efficiency the

3 conditioned space and hot water. These

4 controls, in themselves, do have an energy

5 consumption with them, electrically. So we're

6 now in a position where there's going to be a

7 mandate to put better controls on boilers to

8 help improve the real delivered efficiency but

9 because AFUE specifically excepts the use of

10 controls in the test standard, so they don't

11 have any impact on the standard, that you'd

12 get a better efficiency in efficiency control,

13 but you'll get a lower efficiency in this test

14 because now you're going to have an electrical

15 consumption that's associated with it. 

16 So it really is imperative that we

17 have a better test standard that's going to

18 reflect the impact of higher efficiency

19 controls to be able to not only distinguish

20 between the controls, but why it's so

21 important to have these controls on the

22 equipment to get better performance moving

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1 forward.

2 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, John

3 Talbott?

4 MR. TALBOTT: That's a bigger point

5 than I was going to make. Just to clarify this

6 provision that we are including and that

7 business about the off-switch and seasonal

8 differences, it's a difference we're looking

9 for there. If there is an expected difference

10 between the off-mode that there's something

11 done between the heating season and the non12 heating season. It could be a lower wattage

13 in that, for instance, the manufacturers

14 decide, "I'm going to shut down with this

15 switch only the components that are associated

16 with the heating and I'm going to leave the

17 thermostat hot", or something like that. That

18 would be an off-mode wattage that is

19 considerably less than the standby wattage and

20 then those differences would be reflected in

21 the annual accounting.

22 So it's not just an on and off

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1 issue. It's an expected difference between

2 standby mode and off-mode. 

3 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, thanks

4 for that clarification. Okay, so then I would

5 refer you again to Slide 15. Any additional

6 and perhaps final comments in IEC Standard

7 62301 and these last items that people have

8 been raising? Then now is an opportunity for

9 anybody that wishes to do so to make a closing

10 remark, summary comments, any additional

11 issues that people wish to raise at this time? 

12 Yes, Jim.

13 MR. RANFONE: Jim Ranfone, AGA,

14 just a question of scope. I realize you're

15 going to be requiring this on electric

16 furnaces now. Would that also apply to an air

17 handler that has a heating element to it, for

18 example, a heat pump? Are they considered

19 electric furnaces? Was that within the scope

20 of this rulemaking? I guess that's a DOE

21 question.

22 MR. KHAN: I can try. Mohammed

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1 Khan, DOE. Heat pumps are not part of this

2 rulemaking, it's fossil fuel furnaces and

3 electric furnaces.

4 MR. RANFONE: But the electric, Jim

5 Ranfone again. The electric segment of a heat

6 pump which would be an air handler with an

7 electrical, you know, element in it, is that

8 considered an electric furnace by DOE and

9 would that be considered -- included in this

10 rulemaking as another measurement that has to

11 be taken for that product line, for the air

12 handler?

13 MR. KHAN: Yes, Mohammed Khan, DOE. 

14 The intention here is not to separate or pull

15 out any portions of any particular product. 

16 And since the heat pump, I believe is covered

17 under the AC line of products, it would be

18 looked at there.

19 MR. RANFONE: Again, Jim Ranfone. 

20 I'm not sure I understand. So is the air

21 handler that has an electric element to it,

22 considered an electric furnace and included in

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1 the current DOE test procedure? I guess

2 that's really the basic question because it

3 operates as an electric furnace.

4 MR. KHAN: Yes.

5 MR. RANFONE: It's got a blower,

6 it's got heating elements.

7 MR. KHAN: Okay, well, basically,

8 I'm going to have to say no at this point.

9 MR. RANFONE: Okay.

10 MR. KHAN: It will not be covered.

11 MR. RANFONE: Is there a reason for

12 that because it's not part of this test

13 procedure or --

14 MR. KHAN: Well, as I was trying to

15 explain, because that is a -- I guess a sub16 component or component of the heat pump, which

17 is covered under the AC rule, it will not be

18 covered here.

19 MR. RANFONE: Okay. The second

20 question -- oh, I'm sorry, go ahead.

21 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: That's it. 

22 Eric Stas.

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1 MR. STAS: Eric Stas, DOE. Let me

2 just add that the standby provisions apply to

3 all of our covered products so just because

4 you're not covered under the furnace and

5 boiler test procedure in pursuing standards,

6 you'll probably be caught in the AC heat pump

7 section, so it's not -- I don't think it's a

8 free pass.

9 MR. RANFONE: For water heaters or

10 any other product then. 

11 MR. STAS: Standby is going to

12 apply to everything after July 1st, 2010. 

13 MR. RANFONE: Okay, thank you. The

14 second question is, a few years ago the

15 Department proposed an energy factor for

16 electrical consumption of fossil furnaces, oil

17 and gas to measure electrical consumption. I

18 think we used to call it SUF factor but they

19 weren't applying it to electric furnaces at

20 that time. They took that electrical

21 consumption back to source. I don't see that

22 as part of this rulemaking. I think the

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1 argument back then was that DOE did not have

2 the authority to measure electrical

3 consumption back to source. Is that still the

4 case today or could this rulemaking be

5 included to add that separate energy factor

6 which wouldn't be part of a minimum efficiency

7 program to include source electrical

8 consumption?

9 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: John

10 Talbott.

11 MR. TALBOTT: As you know, there is

12 an energy factor in the existing test

13 procedure and that applies to electric

14 furnaces. But and these amendments would

15 change that quotient but for electric

16 furnaces, it's assigned 100 percent efficiency

17 and AFUE equals energy factor. And that's

18 unfortunate because it probably shouldn't but

19 that was simplifying an assumption that was

20 made early in the test procedure development

21 and the ASHRAE standard 103 does incorporate

22 a different energy factor for electric

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1 furnaces, but that's not on DOE's list, I

2 don't believe, to address within this topic.

3 MR. RANFONE: This is Jim Ranfone,

4 AGA, I think with some of the recent studies

5 like the National Academy of Science came out

6 and basically said that, you know, energy use

7 should be measured at the source. And I was

8 asking DOE to consider that. I think perhaps

9 that may be something that should be

10 considered at least as part of this rulemaking

11 to put it on the table and see where we go

12 from there, because if we're all interested

13 in, you know, reducing energy consumption,

14 then it should be done totally not just on the

15 site. Thank you.

16 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: So that sort

17 of comment would be very helpful in your

18 written comments, Jim. 

19 MR. RANFONE: Okay, thank you.

20 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you,

21 yes, Gary.

22 MR. FERNSTROM: PG&E has advocated

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1 for that over many rulemakings.

2 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you

3 for that voice of support. Any -- then, now

4 is the opportunity for people to make

5 additional comments, raise additional issues,

6 ask additional questions. I think we're now -

7 - have now completed the presentation material

8 and the material that the Department wanted to

9 cover. Okay, yes. 

10 MR. KHAN: Thank you. As Doug

11 already mentioned at the onset, this was --

12 the whole thing was captured via transcript

13 which will be available in the next upcoming

14 weeks. Again, I want to remind you about the

15 importance of the written comments. There

16 were a lot of good points made today and the

17 Department would definitely appreciate a

18 follow-up as a written form, and this

19 information here is just to remind you once

20 again how to submit that. 

21 And again, I want to point out and

22 remind you please, that the cutoff date for

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1 receiving those comments are October 13, 2009

2 and when you do submit that, please include

3 the pertinent information. And again, thank

4 you very much and it looks like one other

5 question.

6 MR. STANONIK: Yes, in the mail

7 address, the note for ASHRAE Standard Cooling

8 equipment, I assume that's a typo?

9 MR. KHAN: Why did you have to

10 point that out, Frank? 

11 MR. STANONIK: Because if I send my

12 comments in, they get lost. (Laughter)

13 MR. KHAN: I will make sure that

14 gets fixed and -- yes, thank you. 

15 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: And the

16 evaluation form is a part of your packet.

17 Please take 30 seconds and fill out the

18 evaluation form. Thanks to all.

19 (Whereupon, at 10:35 a.m. the

20 above-entitled matter concluded.) 

21

22

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input/output 16:3

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instances 14:12

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instrumentation

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measure 29:3 40:9

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39:18 45:11 50:10

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61:19 69:11 70:1

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measurements

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measuring 9:14

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mechanisms 19:18

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meetings 12:12

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methodology 10:8

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talk 36:2 58:20

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technologies 8:19

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today's 9:5 10:5,22

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totally 35:17 88:14

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transcript 8:17

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transformer 57:18

57:20 58:2 62:3

transformers 49:17

73:1

transparency 18:6

transparent 20:13

trivial 55:8

truly 75:5,18

try 8:10 41:22

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twice 49:8

two 12:11 14:8 16:1

16:8 17:10 30:13

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64:17 65:6

two-way 10:11

Type 70:9,10

types 70:3

typical 14:3 32:18

typically 17:17

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unaccounted 42:13

uncertainty 53:15

underscores 19:13

understand 11:8

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76:16 84:20

understandable

45:11

understanding

45:16 53:14

unduly 41:5

unfortunate 87:18

unfortunately 26:6

unit 48:12 58:13

United 1:22

universal 12:13

unknown 80:7

upcoming 89:13

updating 19:14

use 12:14 27:3,8

29:2,8 30:4,9,18

31:21 33:20 36:13

36:16 39:21 41:19

48:14,17 58:4

61:12,14 68:21

72:13 73:2 75:3

81:9 88:6

useful 73:22

user 75:18

usually 61:10,14

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68:15

utilized 28:16

U.S 1:1,10 4:5 9:5

V

valid 68:6

validate 64:4

value 41:8 57:5

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values 66:22 67:3

varies 33:20

various 42:16 58:3

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69:10,10,16 71:3

71:8 73:10

versions 22:3

versus 25:8 45:16

52:5

voice 89:3

volt 55:21 57:18

58:1

W

EERE-2008-BT-TP-0020 COMMENT 07
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 103

wait 69:13

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world 27:20 62:17

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year 23:7 30:15,17

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years 13:17 15:4

54:20 77:7 86:14

1

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1st 23:22 36:11

38:7 86:12

10 21:6

10:30 7:19

10:35 90:19

10:45ish 7:19

100 42:11 87:16

1000 1:10

103 87:21

11 3:17

12 55:4

12th 21:3

120 14:2

124 15:15

13 90:1

13th 11:3

140 14:2

15 83:5

155 16:5

18 1:7

19th 21:11

1997 21:3

2

2,080 48:9

2.9 76:4

20 3:20 51:18

2007 9:13 21:11,17

24:10,19

2009 1:7 77:14 90:1

2010 23:22 36:11

38:7 39:1 40:1

67:18 86:12

24 55:21 57:18,19

57:22

24-volt 57:17

27th 20:16

3

30 54:21 77:7 90:17

365 77:16

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4.2 13:20

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400 46:2

430 21:7

4600 29:22

5

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6 3:11 16:3

6.2 16:22

60 67:14 78:14

62087 22:5,9

62301 22:4 64:19

64:20 65:8,10

67:14 83:7

63.01 52:4

7

7 17:4

7,800 44:14

7,880 47:12

7,900 44:13 47:11

7.1 17:11

7.2 18:2

75 63:21

75-day 20:19

8

8E-089 1:10

8,760 30:16 41:12

47:10 55:5

800 44:12

9

9 3:13

9:00 1:10

9:04 4:2

95 53:16

EERE-2008-BT-TP-0020 COMMENT 07
EERE-2008-BT-TP-0020 COMMENT 07