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 COMMERCIAL/INDUSTRIAL PUMPS

 WORKING GROUP

 FEB 0714-1-EE-2J

 Wednesday, June 18, 2014

 Department of Energy

 1000 Independence Avenue SW

 Forrestal Building

 Washington, DC 20585
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1 A P P E A R A N C E S

2 DOUG BROOKMAN, Meeting Facilitator, Public

Solutions, Inc.

3

LUCAS ADIN, U.S. Department of Energy

4

ASHLEY ARMSTRONG, U.S. Department of Energy

5

JEFFREY ALASCIO, ABB, Inc.

6

ROBERT BARBOUR, TACO, Inc.

7

ROBERT BOTELER, Nidec Motor Corporation

8

GREG CASE, Pump Design, Development and

9 Diagnostics

10 TOM ECKMAN, Northwest Power and Conservation

Council

11

GARY FERNSTROM, California Investor-Owned

12 Utilities

13 MARK HANDZEL, Xylem, Inc.

14 ALBERT HUBER, Patterson Pump Company

15 JOANNA MAUER, Appliance Standards Awareness

Project

16

DOUGLAS POTTS, American Water

17

JAY SIVIGNY, Flowserve Corporation

18

LOUIS STARR, Northwest Energy Efficiency

19 Alliance

20 GREG TOWSLEY, Grundfos

21 MEG WALTNER, Natural Resources Defense

Council

22

DANIEL WEINTRAUB, Navigant Consulting, Inc.
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1 A P P E A R A N C E S (Continued)

2 SARAH WIDDER, Navigant Consulting, Inc.

3 ALISON WILLIAMS, Lawrence Berkeley National

Laboratory

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1 P R O C E E D I N G S

2 MR. BROOKMAN: -- individuals have not

3 had a chance to join us yet. But we hope they'll

4 join us shortly here. Good morning, everyone.

5 This is U.S. Department of Energy's Commercial and

6 Industrial Pumps Negotiated Rulemaking Working

7 Group. We're okay, right?

8 Today is June 18th, 2014. This is the

9 second day of the seventh meeting and we made

10 tremendous progress yesterday, I'm pleased to

11 report.

12 So I'm hoping that that will continue

13 today and I'm rather -- actually quite certain it

14 will. Let's start by just doing introductions

15 around the room. I think everyone's pretty used

16 to these systems by now.

17 MS. SIVIGNY: Jay Sivigny, Flowserve

18 Corporation.

19 MR. BARBOUR: Bob Barbour, TACO.

20 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson.

21 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel, Xylem.

22 MR. CASE: Greg Case, Hydraulic
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1 Institute.

2 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg Towsley, Grundfos.

3 MR. BOTELER: Rob Boteler, Nidec.

4 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary Fernstrom,

5 representing the California Investor-owned

6 Utilities, PG&E, SCE, SDG&E and SoCal Gas.

7 MR. ECKMAN: Tom Eckman, Northwest Power

8 and Conservation Council.

9 MR. STARR: Louis Starr, NEEA.

10 MR. POTTS: Doug Potts, American Water.

11 MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer, Appliance

12 Standards Awareness Project.

13 MR. ADIN: Lucas Adin, U.S. Department

14 of Energy.

15 MR. WEINTRAUB: Dan Weintraub, Navigant.

16 MR. ALASCIO: Jeff Alascio, ABB.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thanks to all of

18 you. And Sarah, who is at the podium, needs no

19 introduction. She'll be presenting here shortly.

20 Let me welcome Doug Potts, who was online

21 yesterday. For those of you who have sat through

22 online presentations all day long, that's
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1 something of a slog.

2 So thanks for doing that and nice to

3 have you available for a vote, a very important

4 vote yesterday where we established the standard

5 level that's going to go in the term sheet. So

6 that really, a big breakthrough for the working

7 group.

8 Does anybody wish to say anything here

9 at the outset before we get into the content? The

10 content today, we're going to start with test

11 procedure and Sarah has a slide deck and that she

12 assures me is the logical progression that then

13 leads us to metric -- the metric. And so, we'll

14 see if that's true.

15 MS. WIDDER: Ye of little faith.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Comments here at the

17 outset? I see Lucas is poised.

18 MR. ADIN: You've recognized my poised

19 work. Thanks, Doug. I just wanted to lead off

20 with a couple of things.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: A new father and poised

22 at the same time, I must say.
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1 MR. ADIN: So just to kind of set things

2 up from our perspective, we wanted to make sure

3 that we understood what we were trying to cover

4 today or really today and tomorrow, the remainder

5 of the meeting. The one main item that we have,

6 material item we have yet to produce is the term

7 sheet.

8 So we're going to come up with kind of a

9 draft, just a listing of all of the things that we

10 voted on as a group for everyone to review, to

11 look at the language we discussed yesterday to

12 make sure it's -- it accurately captures the

13 intent of the working group with each item that we

14 voted on so that we can vote out a final term

15 sheet as the final product of this group and

16 ideally that'll be before we finish tomorrow.

17 So we'll try and have a draft sometime

18 today that we can send out to everyone so you can

19 provide us with whatever feedback you have on the

20 language. If we need to tweak it today or

21 tomorrow, we can do that and get ready to vote

22 out.
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1 The material for today, we just wanted

2 to do another overview of the test procedure and

3 the metric, make sure that we've captured

4 accurately whatever input this group has for DOE.

5 This isn't material that the group needs to vote

6 on necessarily. But we wanted to make sure that

7 we have as good as an idea as possible about what

8 this group believes is the best approach on these

9 things so that when DOE writes up a proposal for a

10 proposed test procedure rule, it will as nearly as

11 possible reflect all the input that we've received

12 from you all.

13 So procedurally the way that would work

14 is DOE will publish this proposal and obviously

15 you'll get another opportunity to provide your

16 feedback and written comments and we'll have a

17 public meeting for the test procedure for that

18 proposal and you'll have another opportunity to

19 make whatever comments you want on that.

20 So to the extent it doesn't capture

21 whatever it is that you wanted to express here or

22 there are other things you wanted to think of
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1 between now and when we publish that proposal,

2 you'll have an opportunity to give us that

3 feedback. So but, you know, like I said, I think

4 we just want to make sure that we've gotten as

5 good an idea as we can in advance about what we

6 want to propose.

7 So I think that's about it. There are a

8 few things that we've been discussing all along

9 that it seems like the group is mostly in

10 agreement with but a few other things, you know,

11 that we'd like to make sure we've nailed down.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: I wanted to confirm one

13 or two things here at the outset. Yesterday, as

14 we began this three-day meeting, a few individuals

15 mentioned to me that they'd like, if at all

16 possible, to conclude the work of this working

17 group in the span of this three-day meeting. And

18 of course, those days in July are there in the

19 event we need them. I think we always thought of

20 them as being backup dates.

21 So I'm thinking following that -- those

22 ideas, that suggestion from those individuals
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1 yesterday, that we should try and conclude the

2 work of this working group, if at all possible, in

3 the span of these three days, unless other folks

4 have different ideas. Louis?

5 MR. STARR: Actually, what Lucas was

6 saying, I thought the ground rules was that you

7 can comment in the NOPR if -- you don't really

8 want to just open up the same comments that we had

9 in negotiation.

10 So I think the idea is that if you

11 didn't have -- if you had a negative one that you

12 could comment, put it in the NOPR but otherwise

13 you're sort of going along with what we're working

14 towards in this group. So that's --

15 MR. BROOKMAN: My interpretation, and

16 I'll rely on Lucas and others, maybe the general

17 counsel, to amplify this. The scope of this

18 working group didn't include test procedure.

19 MR. ADIN: That's right. The NOPR I was

20 referring to is for the test procedure, not the

21 standards.

22 MR. STARR: So not this, the standard
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1 levels.

2 MR. ADIN: That's right, correct.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: So every individual in

4 this room, in addition to the input that we're

5 going to provide today and perhaps tomorrow, every

6 individual in this room would be free to comment

7 however he or she would want to on the notice of

8 proposed rulemaking for the test procedure.

9 MR. STARR: Okay.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary Fernstrom?

11 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. So one of

12 the things we agreed would go in the term sheet

13 was a follow-on activity dealing with circulators

14 and pool pumps. And I'm wondering whether it

15 might not be possible or desirable to use some

16 part of the July meeting to address those topics.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: I think it's certainly

18 worth considering and I myself am entirely

19 agnostic on this question. I'm reflecting back

20 what I heard from members saying that they'd like

21 to conclude the work at this meeting. So, but

22 it's something we could -- this working group
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1 could discuss.

2 MR. FERNSTROM: So those two things

3 aren't mutually exclusive. But I don't know how

4 DOE views the follow-on activity and what

5 requirements it may or may not have.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. And Lucas, do we

7 know anything at this point about a follow-on

8 activity?

9 MR. ADIN: Well, my understanding all

10 along, and I mean, I can certainly get

11 clarification on this if we need it, but was that

12 that follow-on activity would be treated as a

13 separate proceeding from this one. So those July

14 meetings are part of this activity and I mean,

15 certainly we could get together and discuss

16 things. But it wouldn't be something where we

17 could vote or actually have a material output. It

18 would just be a discussion, an informative

19 discussion.

20 MR. FERNSTROM: So, so thank you. In

21 view of that, the question would be whether or not

22 we think it might be productive to have an
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1 informal start to that activity that might get us

2 reasonably well down the road. So when the formal

3 charter comes along, we'll be closer to

4 resolution.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you for

6 that. I personally made a big note about those

7 elements that were included -- that would be

8 included in the term sheet. So we'll make sure

9 they're in there.

10 And then, I'd like to though suggest

11 that we park a time slot to continue this

12 discussion a little bit later on today and then

13 meantime other members in this group can discuss

14 among themselves or within their caucuses how they

15 might like to approach that.

16 So maybe when we return from lunch,

17 we'll take up the issue about where we think we

18 are, where that fits with the July meeting dates

19 and then the pool pump business as well, okay,

20 when we return from lunch. So if there's nothing

21 else there at the outset, Tom Eckman, please.

22 MR. ECKMAN: Yeah, I think it might be
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1 helpful to have John around to give us ideas about

2 -- I don't know what the work impact and

3 scheduling and all of those things. But what we're

4 looking for is a timeframe for the circular

5 discussions.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

7 MR. ECKMAN: Whether, if it's productive

8 to do that or Lucas can get some information on

9 how that would be -- where the department -- you

10 know, how receptive the department is to

11 immediately taking up something when, you know, we

12 know their workload, so.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: And that of course would

14 be John Cymbalsky.

15 MR. ECKMAN: Yeah.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas Adin?

17 MR. ADIN: Right. I can try and get

18 some input on that before the end of today, if I

19 can.

20 MR. ECKMAN: Great.

21 MR. ADIN: Certainly by the end of

22 tomorrow. Of course, it may be hard for John to
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1 project that.

2 MR. ECKMAN: Yeah.

3 MR. ADIN: But we'll do the best we can.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thanks. I welcome

5 any additional comments here at the outset before

6 we go to Sarah for presentation on test

7 procedures. And let me also welcome Meg Waltner,

8 who wasn't here at the -- as we first started.

9 Okay, Sarah?

10 MS. WIDDER: Okay, thank you. So as

11 Doug mentioned, today we're going to talk a lot

12 about test procedure and then the format of the

13 presentation is going to be hopefully procedurally

14 accurate.

15 So it really describes how one would go

16 about testing a pump, translating that tested data

17 into inputs that would be fed into algorithms or

18 equations that we've discussed previously and then

19 how you would arrive at a PEI or whatever metric

20 that we've been discussing. So it's going to be

21 sort of from pump to metric that would be

22 certified to DOE for that given pump model.
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1 So first, I know we've received a lot of

2 questions about the calculator. I just wanted to

3 address the calculator quickly. These are the

4 changes that have been made to the version 12 from

5 version 11. There's a list of these sent out and

6 requesting feedback from other members. We

7 received a few additional comments, but not many.

8 So mostly there's a few editorial

9 changes, not very important, reflecting the

10 nomenclature we agreed upon. Most of the more

11 substantive changes are addressing how the

12 calculator deals with motors. So we did update

13 the minimally compliant motor efficiency. I'll

14 note that they're the same efficiencies. So

15 really that was done already.

16 But we did add a line for 250 horsepower

17 motors since really what the new motor rulemaking

18 did was expand the scope of motors. So the

19 efficiency for motors greater than 200 horsepower

20 that might be paired with a very large pump that's

21 within our scope is now consistent. We updated

22 the C-values. We added a minimum efficiency table
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1 for submersible motors.

2 The C-values were updated in two ways,

3 one based on the aggregated HI and DOE data which

4 was discussed yesterday, how it affected energy

5 savings. That data was -- and how that affected

6 energy savings. A number of pumps that fell out

7 was used to revise the C-value levels, as was

8 discussed yesterday. That might continue to be

9 revised and tweaked. This group really only cares

10 about PEI 25 at this point.

11 But we also limited the PEI levels that

12 are in the calculator, at least right now, to 10,

13 15, 20, 25, 30, 35, 40. And it could be further

14 limited to just PEI 25. You know, there's no

15 reason we couldn't reduce the complexity of it. We

16 added tabs to enter wire-to-water input data.

17 So if you had a pump and a motor

18 together, you could enter the input power to the

19 motor or the input power to the drive as opposed

20 to the pump shaft input power which is what the

21 calculator's designed to take now. And then, we

22 slightly revised the motor loss curve equations,
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1 to be consistent with some new data that was

2 provided by NEMA that we'll discuss today.

3 I just wanted to throw this up there to

4 make sure this was everything everyone -- the

5 updates everyone was expecting to see, to accept

6 any other recommendations at this time so we can

7 limit the number of versions. I would really like

8 this version 12 to be the last calculator we ever

9 make, so --

10 MR. HANDZEL: We're all in on that.

11 MS. WIDDER: Okay, great. So just is

12 there anything else that seems to be missing from

13 here?

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber?

15 MS. WIDDER: Yeah.

16 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson. Sarah,

17 if there are no other changes suggested, when will

18 this be ready?

19 MS. WIDDER: All of this is ready now.

20 But I wanted to wait because I foresaw sending it

21 and then having a discussion today that led me to

22 want to change something and then having more
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1 versions.

2 So I wanted to wait until the end of

3 today when we had an in-depth test procedure

4 discussion and we were able to review this. But

5 if there are no other substantive changes, it's

6 done today.

7 MR. HUBER: Thank you.

8 MS. WIDDER: Yes.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Jay?

10 MR. SIVIGNY: Hi, Sarah.

11 MS. WIDDER: Hi.

12 MR. SIVIGNY: Jay Sivigny, Flowserve.

13 Just wanted to confirm that the C-values that

14 you're going to be using in version 12 will

15 reflect a true PER 25.

16 MS. WIDDER: To the best of our ability.

17 MR. SIVIGNY: To the -- understanding

18 the complexities, okay. Thank you.

19 MS. WIDDER: Okay, and Alison and Dan

20 have an update.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's find a microphone.

22 MS. WIDDER: Have a revision to that.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: You're creating anxiety

2 here, by the way.

3 MS. WIDDER: Yeah, I think -- so I'm

4 going to try and say what I think you're going to

5 say and then you can -- or you just go.

6 MS. WILLIAMS: Well, so we have to

7 update -- the only way we can update the C-values

8 to get exactly 25 percent cutoff is to iterate

9 using the calculator. And so, I don't know that

10 Dan and I can promise that that will be done

11 today. But we will do it as soon as we can.

12 MS. WIDDER: But I think that the other

13 thing -- so it will be closer to 25 than the

14 values we were using -- those preliminary C-values

15 we were using that were resulting in significant

16 differences than 25 percent cutoff, correct?

17 MS. WILLIAMS: I don't --

18 MS. WIDDER: Okay, never mind.

19 MS. WILLIAMS: I don't know.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Dan Weintraub?

21 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yeah, the other -- Dan

22 Weintraub, Navigant. The other thing that is --
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1 there's going to be discussion on motor losses and

2 nailing all that down and all those things have to

3 be nailed down and locked in before we can iterate

4 to get you the value that we're going to lock in.

5 So we want to -- we're going to be very

6 close with these C-values and I think we can give

7 you the new C-values once the calculator is set

8 and we've locked in how we're going to do

9 everything.

10 MS. WIDDER: Yeah, I guess when I said

11 to the best of our ability, these C-values are the

12 most recent that we have. They're what was

13 presented yesterday in terms of energy use

14 analysis and they're very close to 25 percent.

15 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yeah, very close, and

16 we'll lock it in once everything's set.

17 MS. WIDDER: Yeah, but they're not 25.0,

18 like was discussed yesterday.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Jeff, please use the

20 microphone right there. Yeah.

21 MR. ALASCIO: Jeff Alascio, from ABB. I

22 guess the question I have with these calculators,
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1 I mean, are they made available to anyone? How do

2 we get a copy of it?

3 MS. WIDDER: We've been sending them out

4 to the working group. One thing I actually --

5 that question makes a good point. So thank you

6 for that. One thing I wanted to emphasize about

7 this calculator is that this isn't like a formal

8 DOE template or tool of any sort.

9 This was just -- I designed this to be

10 helpful to the manufacturers in the working group

11 in terms of understanding how this metric affected

12 their given pump models. And so, combining data

13 they already had and had already provided to us so

14 they could play with it and sort of get a feel for

15 what this metric meant for them.

16 It is in no way, like, you know, the

17 template will look different. You could come up

18 with your own calculator. It was just meant to be

19 a helpful tool. To the extent that -- I mean, we

20 could put it in the docket.

21 MR. ADIN: It will be in the docket.

22 MS. WIDDER: Yeah.
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1 MR. ADIN: I mean, everything that we

2 present at these meetings is public information.

3 So it'll go in the public docket if this one's not

4 -- if the previous ones aren't in there, I'll make

5 sure they're put in there.

6 MR. ALASCIO: (Off mic) -- the

7 calculator in the public docket.

8 MR. ADIN: Okay. We'll make sure that

9 we're in there.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Use a mic.

11 MR. ALASCIO: It does impact -- (off

12 mic).

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah, so Jeff says he

14 hasn't seen it in the public docket. So and then

15 Lucas, that was Lucas speaking. He replied that

16 we'll make sure it's in there. Okay.

17 MS. WIDDER: Yeah.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Back to Sarah.

19 MS. WIDDER: We'll discuss later on how

20 it may or may not affect drives. Right now,

21 there's probably minimal impact on drives. But

22 okay --
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: But you made a really

2 important point there. I'm really glad you made

3 that point.

4 MS. WIDDER: Yeah.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Because this isn't like

6 an endorsed product by DOE or anything like that.

7 MS. WIDDER: No, not by any stretch.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, okay.

9 MS. WIDDER: Okay, so moving on then to

10 the actual pumps test procedure, so we're starting

11 with a pump -- a bare pump in a test stand and

12 that would be the default starting place for

13 testing a pump. And we anticipate testing in

14 accordance with HI 40.6, which is now publicly

15 available.

16 As specified in the procedure, you would

17 sweep the pump through seven points that are

18 specified, 40, 60, 75, 90, 100, 110 and 120

19 percent of the expected BEP of the pump.

20 And so, the way pumps are designed

21 hydraulically, they typically have a BEP in mind

22 that they're designed towards that may or may not
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1 be the official tested BEP but they have this

2 nominal BEP that's associated with the pump

3 design.

4 And so, that's how those initial flow

5 rates would be specified. The head, torque,

6 speed, and flow rate would be captured at each of

7 these points using specific data acquisition

8 methods so that everyone is collecting data in the

9 same format with the same tolerances, same

10 accuracy. There's specification of the water that

11 can be used and how pressure is measured.

12 There's a lot of details in this test

13 procedure that ensure the accuracy and

14 repeatability of the collected data.

15 That data can be used to calculate the

16 efficiency at each of the flow points, each of

17 those seven flow points. And then the BEP, the

18 actual tested BEP of the pump is determined by

19 finding the maximum of a best fit curve of

20 efficiency versus flow rate.

21 And the test procedure also specifies,

22 or the HI 40.6 test procedure also specifies a
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1 specific method for determining that regression

2 line so that it's not left up to the tester.

3 So with -- this is a sample table of the

4 data that you would get. You can see the

5 efficiency in the last green column there is a

6 calculation of the previous data and then you've

7 found the maximum.

8 This blue column is the efficiency based

9 on the best fit line and if we were to show the

10 data and the line, you know, sometimes it's a

11 little bit below or above, just like any

12 regression line.

13 And there's -- but that's -- the BEP is

14 determined and after that, the efficiency is not

15 an important metric for our test procedure moving

16 forward. We're really going to focus on that

17 yellow column, the shaft input power, moving

18 forward. And this is really the test procedure.

19 This is it, 40.6 capturing data of flow rate,

20 torque, head, and speed at each point.

21 We could get into a lot of the details

22 about how those measurements are taken. But I
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1 don't think that's appropriate here. 40.6 is

2 available and that will be what we reference to

3 the extent possible. Yeah?

4 MR. BROOKMAN: So just pause there. So

5 conceptually, I thought that was clear. Based on

6 40.6, those are the elements that get measured.

7 All right, questions and comments on any or all of

8 this? Greg Case, you're on top of this, right?

9 MS. WIDDER: Yeah.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

11 MS. WIDDER: Okay, great. All right, so

12 this is a sample curve that comes out of 40.6. The

13 top graph is the pump power input -- pump shaft

14 power input with respect to flow rate. And the

15 bottom curve is head and efficiency. The curved

16 line that's curvy, sloping up, is efficiency and

17 that corresponds with the right- hand axis.

18 And the pump head is this -- is the line

19 that's sloping down and corresponds to the left20 hand axis.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: This one?

22 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. So there's BEP
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1 that's been determined on our curve based on the

2 methods specified in 40.6. We then determine a

3 BEP flow rate, a hundred percent of BEP flow rate

4 and then use that to specify the 25, 50, 75

5 percent and 110 percent of BEP flow rates that

6 will be used in subsequent calculations.

7 So we're all clear on that. Okay, so

8 after determining BEP flow rate, now this is just

9 all -- we've reached the part of the test

10 procedure that we do not collect more data.

11 This is all manipulation of data after

12 this point. After determining BEP flow rate, the

13 part load power is determined and this is

14 something -- this is something we've been thinking

15 about and discussing and we'll welcome feedback

16 on.

17 You'll notice that the tested data is

18 not exactly at, for example, 75 percent of BEP

19 flow rate. Okay, I'll stay back here. But and

20 similar for 110 percent. So we're not -- the

21 tested data point is not exactly at the flow rate

22 that we would like to rate that given pump. So we
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1 need a method to translate the measured shaft

2 horsepower to the rated flow rate that we're

3 interested in.

4 The method -- by reviewing pump --

5 available pump data, we've seen that in most cases

6 pump shaft input power has a linear trend with

7 flow rate. And so, we've used a linear regression

8 here to determine the flow rate at 75 and 110

9 percent of BEP flow.

10 And I will note that we're only using it

11 in that range. So we're not using the linear

12 regression to determine flow rate at very low flow

13 rates or very high flow rates. And so, if we can

14 agree that it's linear within this small range,

15 then a linear regression might be the best and

16 most consistent method.

17 Another -- other ways we could do it is

18 we could linearly interpolate between the points.

19 That would accommodate some amount of curve that

20 might be available. There's some pumps that will

21 drop off above BEP. So the 110 percent flow rate

22 may not follow the line and may actually decrease
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1 below BEP. And a linear interpolation might

2 capture that a little bit better.

3 This last method is what's done in the

4 EU for circulators at least but also for pumps.

5 You have to hit the data -- you have to hit the

6 data point exactly, which would require you to

7 sweep the pump curve and either be really close to

8 the BEP the first time or re-sweep and calculate

9 and capture data at these specific points.

10 That's a slightly more burdensome

11 approach. And so, that's why we decided to go

12 with the linear regression. But I would welcome

13 comments on how to determine -- how best to

14 determine most accurately the pump shaft input

15 power at these specific flow points that we're

16 interested in for a given pump, now or in the

17 future. Don't have to accept comments now.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Meg Waltner?

19 MS. WIDDER: Yeah.

20 MS. WALTNER: So Meg Waltner. I just

21 want to make sure I'm understanding this

22 correctly. So it seems like this method you've
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1 proposed sort of wouldn't capture the actual curve

2 of the pump curve. So it would encourage

3 designing for peak efficiency at BEP only because

4 you're just calculating the other points or am I

5 missing something?

6 MS. WIDDER: So you're using the data

7 that was collected. So in this graph on the left,

8 those red and blue data points are all measured

9 data.

10 MS. WALTNER: For that specific pump.

11 MS. WIDDER: For that specific pump.

12 MS. WALTNER: I see.

13 MS. WIDDER: But you're regressing it

14 because you might have 58 percent of BEP flow and

15 80 percent of BEP flow but you don't have 75

16 percent of BEP flow.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: So you need the line.

18 MS. WIDDER: Yeah, so you need the line

19 in order to calculate the shaft input power, like

20 here, say.

21 MS. WALTNER: Okay, all right, okay, I -

22 -
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1 MS. WIDDER: And so, it's do we linearly

2 interpolate these, do we make the line and just

3 plug in a number to get the value here or some

4 other method --

5 MS. WALTNER: Yeah.

6 MS. WIDDER: That's what we're talking

7 about.

8 MS. WALTNER: Okay, I've got it now.

9 MS. WIDDER: Yeah.

10 MS. WALTNER: Sorry. I missed --

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis Starr?

12 MR. STARR: Louis Starr, with NEEA.

13 Sounds like you should also maybe put a limit on

14 how much you could do that because you could

15 interpolate from a point that's very far away.

16 MS. WIDDER: Right. So that's the

17 benefit of doing a linear regression as opposed to

18 an interpolation. You're capturing the trend

19 better and you're less biased by perhaps erroneous

20 data points, which is why we chose the regression.

21 But then, the con is that may not be an

22 erroneous data point. There may actually be some
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1 curve to the shape of the power versus flow

2 relationship, slight curve.

3 So like in this example, you can see

4 that power -- it's very linear until about a

5 hundred percent of BEP flow and that flattens out.

6 That is not atypical.

7 And so, we're reflecting a little bit

8 higher. If we're doing a linear regression

9 method, we would be reflecting a little bit higher

10 pump shaft input power at those high flow rates,

11 higher flow rates, than the pump actually

12 demonstrates. Yeah?

13 MR. STARR: Does 40.6 not have

14 something, not part of the test procedure or

15 doesn't handle this or --

16 MR. BROOKMAN: That was Louis Starr.

17 Greg Case, use the microphone.

18 MR. CASE: We don't have a regression

19 technique built in --

20 MALE: Can't hear.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Microphone, please. Thank

22 you.
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1 MR. CASE: Greg Case, HI. We don't have

2 a regression technique built into that standard.

3 MS. WIDDER: So and HI 40.6 is really

4 designed to determine pump efficiency. That's the

5 more important metric in the pump industry. And

6 so, it does have a regression technique for the

7 flow -- efficiency versus flow curve that we'll be

8 relying on to determine BEP.

9 And so, I think it's reasonable that

10 40.6 doesn't have this regression. It's just the

11 fact that we are more interested in energy than

12 efficiency in the way we've constructed our metric

13 that we also need a way of regressing the power.

14 So just consider that. for the

15 subsequent slides, the data has been used -- has

16 been based on a tested pump that we had tested and

17 then we used a linear regression, this linear

18 regression that's shown here, to determine the

19 pump input power at the specific flow rates we

20 were interested in. So that's what's been done

21 here. But we could do something else. Yeah?

22 MR. CASE: Greg Case, HI. Louis, just
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1 to clarify a little bit, during our -- we have a

2 weekly meeting with a bunch of the engineers from

3 different pump companies. And this is exactly how

4 we -- you know, we discussed many techniques to do

5 this. This is exactly what the group came up with

6 and said, you know, Sarah, that sounds like a

7 great idea, yeah.

8 MR. HANDZEL: That are based on that

9 input.

10 MS. WIDDER: Okay. Great. So this is

11 the same pump curve and now we're capturing a

12 little bit more data. You can see the blue

13 triangles now are the bare pump brake horsepower

14 that we're interested in moving forward --

15 carrying forward into the metric calculation.

16 Those blue points are the manipulated

17 data that is based on the blue linear regression.

18 You can see it's a little bit higher than the

19 tested line at that -- those flow rates higher

20 than BEP. But it's really a very minor impact.

21 This is not -- it's like in the single

22 percent, less than a percent based on most of the
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1 pump curves that we've looked at, which is not all

2 of them obviously. But we did try to gather as

3 much pump data as we could to come up with a

4 reasonable method.

5 This green triangle at 120 percent of

6 BEP flow is an extension of the linear regression

7 that we used to determine the pump shaft input

8 power at the specific flow rates in the metric.

9 However, that one's used for sizing the motor

10 only.

11 So we want to have a consistent approach

12 for sizing motors for bare pumps and for the

13 standard, the minimally compliant pump that would

14 be on the denominator of our index. And so, we've

15 sized that pump based on the input power at 120

16 percent of BEP flow and that flow, or that

17 horsepower rating is determined using that same

18 line.

19 And then, these blue -- the blue circles

20 on the head curve, I've noted that we use that

21 data to determine hydraulic output power. So

22 that's still relevant data for us. But really the
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1 power curve -- the top graph with the blue

2 triangles and the green square -- are the most

3 important data for calculating our metric for a

4 given pump.

5 That hydraulic output power, those blue

6 dots, is used for matching the minimally compliant

7 pump to your pump. It's essentially used to make

8 sure that the minimally compliant pump and your

9 pump are exactly the same size, have exactly the

10 same hydraulic characteristics and are only

11 different based on pump efficiency essentially.

12 And then, you know, they use a minimally

13 compliant motor to the extent that your pump may

14 not. But that's how that data is used. It's used

15 to describe the minimally compliant pump that

16 you're going to be compared to.

17 Okay, so there's a couple options that

18 we can consider for testing based on the

19 configuration in which a bare pump is sold. This

20 is a summary slide. So I'm going to spend a

21 little bit of time here and then we're going to go

22 through examples of each of these cases.
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1 So across the top of the chart, you see

2 three different pump configurations that we've

3 been considering -- bare pump, bare pump plus

4 motor and bare pump plus motor and controls.

5 And then along the rows are the options

6 that can be applied to that situation. So for a

7 test -- and the three options that we're talking

8 about are testing a bare pump and then just taking

9 the data as we've been describing and manipulating

10 it to come up with a PEI rating.

11 The next option that we can consider is

12 testing the pump with a manufacturer motor as

13 opposed to the default motor that we would assume

14 based on a minimally compliant motor. And then

15 the third option is testing a pump with a motor

16 and controls in a full wire-to-water test. And

17 you can see how the options are played out in the

18 upper sort of triangle.

19 If you have a -- if you are just testing

20 the bare pump and then doing calculations, that's

21 applicable regardless of how the pump is sold. You

22 can just test the pump, the bare pump, and
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1 multiply it or combine it with a DOE minimally

2 compliant motor and the default motor loss curves

3 and get a PEI.

4 All you ever had to do was test the pump

5 on a stand. Similarly, if you are selling the

6 pump paired with a motor, you could apply the same

7 procedure but instead of using a minimally

8 compliant motor, you could use the tested full

9 load efficiency of that motor that may be higher

10 than the DOE minimally -- the DOE minimum. But

11 the motor loss curve that you applied would be the

12 same potentially in this case.

13 The third option that if you were to

14 sell your pump with a motor and controls, you

15 could still only test the pump. It's in a pump

16 stand and then apply calculations using either

17 default or manufacturer motor information, the

18 default motor loss curves and a default system

19 curve that reflects a benefit of controls with no

20 additional testing.

21 So that is sort of the least burdensome

22 approach. But to -- yes?
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1 MR. HUBER: Sarah, Al Huber. When this -

2 - when this rule is published, will it -- you're

3 describing that now.

4 MS. WIDDER: Yeah.

5 MR. HUBER: Will that description be in

6 part of the rule?

7 MS. WIDDER: It --

8 MR. HUBER: In other words, you're

9 describing how you would actually do it. Is that

10 going to be part of the rule, I mean, as you've

11 described?

12 MS. WIDDER: Yeah, ad nauseam.

13 MR. ADIN: Right.

14 MR. HUBER: Thank you. All right, so --

15 MS. WIDDER: It is going to be hundreds

16 of pages describing that.

17 MR. ADIN: Well --

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas Adin --

19 MS. WIDDER: Sorry.

20 MR. ADIN: Hopefully not hundreds, but -

21 -

22 MS. WIDDER: Yeah.
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1 MR. ADIN: Because I have to write some

2 of it too, but --

3 MS. WIDDER: Right.

4 MR. ADIN: The way these -- I don't know

5 how many of these proposed rules you've seen.

6 MR. HUBER: I haven't.

7 MR. ADIN: Not many, but they're really

8 two -- there few sections but the main sections of

9 importance are what we call the regulatory text

10 which is actually the test procedure itself.

11 That's what goes in the regulations. And

12 then, everything comes before that which is called

13 the preamble. And the preamble explains what we

14 are doing.

15 So it's basically a narrative

16 description of everything and how this is supposed

17 to work and all that.

18 MR. HUBER: Okay.

19 MR. ADIN: So we will explain it, like

20 Sarah said, in extensive detail.

21 MR. HUBER: Okay, thank you.

22 MR. ADIN: Yeah.
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1 MS. WIDDER: And we're also going to

2 have some more detailed discussion of those

3 methods in subsequent slides today.

4 Okay, so if -- now, the second option

5 that's presented, testing a pump with a

6 manufacturer motor is obviously not available if

7 you're just selling the pump as a bare bump

8 because there is no manufacturer motor.

9 But if you are selling a pump, a bare

10 pump combined with a motor or a bare pump combined

11 with a motor and controls, you could test the pump

12 and motor in a wire-to-water test on the test

13 stand and then just use that input power to the

14 motor to calculate the PEI or if you had a bare

15 pump plus a motor and controls, use that bare --

16 that input power to the motor and then apply a

17 system curve to that data without additional

18 testing of the controls to come up with a PEI for

19 the case sold with controls.

20 So that's a testing -- wire-to-water

21 testing case for pump and motor. And if you

22 wanted to reflect, say, the performance of
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1 controls that may differ from the system curve we

2 describe, you could also put the pump, the motor

3 and the controls in the test stand and determine,

4 based on testing, the performance of that product

5 and then just input the power at 25, 50, 75 and

6 100 percent of BEP flow, weighted average over

7 your standard and that would be the PEI for that

8 product.

9 And so, that would be almost purely

10 testing. So those are the options, so the

11 universe of options for the different pump

12 configurations. And now we're going to talk

13 through some of them in a little more detail, sort

14 of walk through how those calculations work. Yeah?

15 Unless there are comments?

16 MR. BOTELER: It's Rob Boteler with

17 Nidec. A question on the assumed losses with the

18 motor and running on a VFD.

19 MS. WIDDER: Yeah.

20 MR. BOTELER: Okay, so we have -- NEMA

21 gave you average losses for 100, 75, 50 and 25 on

22 sine wave.
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1 MS. WIDDER: Right.

2 MR. BOTELER: But when we run on a

3 variable frequency drive, depending upon the

4 waveform, depending upon the switching frequency,

5 the motor can lose an additional band to two bands

6 of efficiency.

7 MS. WIDDER: Right.

8 MR. BOTELER: Is that going to be

9 reflected in the partial load assumption?

10 MS. WIDDER: Yeah, so I'm going to

11 answer your question with two parts. The first

12 more direct answer to your question is yes.

13 To the extent that we have data

14 available to reflect the representative

15 performance of motors or efficiency of motors when

16 controlled by a drive, we will try to reflect that

17 in the calculation, either as part of the system

18 curve or as a different motor loss curve that

19 would be applied for a controlled system. Those

20 details are not in the slide deck right now but

21 those are two options.

22 But we will try to describe the accurate
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1 performance of motors and drives combined as a

2 system to the extent we can for these cases where

3 we're just calculating what we would anticipate

4 the energy use of a controlled system to be.

5 Now, the second part of my question is -

6 - or the second part of my answer that I encourage

7 you all to think about when we're developing those

8 curves is as we've all sort of discussed over

9 time, the impact of applying a drive to a pump --

10 a bare pump -- far outweighs any change in motor

11 efficiency or drive efficiency.

12 And so, we do want to be accurate and

13 make sure that our -- that the tested performance,

14 this wire-to-water tested performance, will be at

15 least as good as and in most cases better than our

16 assumed calculations.

17 But aside from that, we do want to be

18 representative of the performance but not get

19 overly complicated just, you know, keeping in mind

20 the magnitude of the impact of the efficiency

21 versus the impact on power. Yeah?

22 MR. FERNSTROM: So Sarah, this is Gary.
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1 Along the lines of the tradeoff between simplicity

2 and complication, are you going to try and take

3 into account the motor design which might be the

4 number of poles, whether it's synchronous or

5 switch reluctance or are you just going to

6 consider motors generically?

7 MS. WIDDER: In terms of the controlled

8 or uncontrolled performance or both?

9 MS. FERNSTROM: In terms of their --

10 thank you. Thank you, Rob. In terms of their

11 efficiency, both controlled and uncontrolled.

12 MS. WIDDER: Okay. So in terms of --

13 and I guess the answer is -- I just wanted to

14 clarify. Thank you for that. But we certainly

15 can.

16 We've considered a lot of different

17 motor loss curves for different poles, different

18 enclosed versus unenclosed and we could

19 potentially consider different motor loss curves

20 for different advanced motor technology.

21 All of that could be part of the test

22 procedure and would just be essentially a table of
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1 coefficients, as you'll see later, different

2 coefficients for the loss curve that you would

3 apply based on the type of motor that you were

4 paired with.

5 We've looked at a lot of data for the

6 uncontrolled case. We could similarly try to

7 collect data for how motor efficiency changes in

8 the controlled case as a function of different

9 motor designs.

10 I will admit that that data is less

11 available. And so, it would be more difficult to

12 describe the family of curves. So we'd need a lot

13 more input from industry on those. However, I

14 still will -- you know, we still have the tradeoff

15 between complexity and accuracy. And so, I'd

16 really encourage us to think about whether all of

17 those curves are needed or which curves are

18 needed. Greg?

19 MR. CASE: I wonder if somehow we're --

20 maybe I'm missing something. But the loss data

21 that you're picking up here is supposed to be for

22 the minimally compliant case.
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1 MS. WIDDER: Mm-hmm.

2 MR. CASE: So we really don't need the

3 switch reluctance. Those are all going to be

4 things that we test and to get better PER values

5 or PEI values. And that's how we would pick up

6 those improved performances, by actually running

7 tests on those. I don't know that we need to have

8 that built into this model. I'm kind of missing

9 where that's going to help us.

10 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary again.

11 Okay, thank you, Greg. I was trying to get at the

12 tradeoff between complexity in the analytic

13 approach versus the testing burden. And really,

14 it's up to industry. We'd like to see some

15 refinement or discrimination in the performance.

16 And that can be had two ways, either

17 through further refinement of the analytical

18 approach at the cost of complexity there or

19 testing burden. I don't care which. But our

20 objective would be to want to have more precision

21 in understanding performance.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas Adin?
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1 MR. ADIN: Yeah, just to clarify, what

2 Greg described was actually the original proposal

3 that DOE had come out with. We have a default

4 loss curve based on the minimally compliant motor

5 and then you do a test if you have something

6 different. And so --

7 MS. WIDDER: I don't think we have a

8 proposal yet.

9 MR. ADIN: Well, not a proposal. I'm

10 sorry. That was not quite the right way to put

11 it. But that's what we had originally discussed.

12 We hadn't talked about other options. So but, as

13 Sarah indicated, there are other ways we could do

14 it. We just don't have enough information to

15 consider those other types of motors.

16 So if, you know, the group believes it's

17 important for us to do that, we need to collect

18 more information. We just don't really have a

19 concrete way to do that yet.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis? Louis Starr?

21 MR. STARR: So I thought Sarah's -- one

22 of her earlier on things had some other options,
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1 like two-speed motors and some other options that

2 were kind of technology. In general, I kind of

3 agree with what Greg Case was saying.

4 But the only thing is if there's

5 substantial differences in the efficiency -- in

6 other words, we were talking about 1 percent, then

7 probably not interested.

8 But if it gets to be whether it's a

9 substantial option out there in which it is really

10 a better selection, if people are just going

11 through using a calculated one, you're not going

12 really be able to give them credit for maybe using

13 something -- you know, a particular motor that

14 costs a little bit more unless they go and test

15 it.

16 So I understand that if you start to get

17 something that it could start to cut the other

18 way. But I think you want some level of -- some

19 level of refinement in those selections of

20 technologies that give you certain levels that

21 make sense.

22 MR. ADIN: And I don't think we
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1 necessarily disagree. I think just at this point

2 we don't have enough information to say this is

3 definitely the way that that could work.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you, Lucas.

5 MR. ADIN: -- for those other types of

6 motors. It's easy for minimally compliant DOE

7 motors, but the other types it might be more

8 complicated.

9 MR. STARR: Right.

10 MS. WIDDER: Right.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: So that was Lucas. Al

12 Huber?

13 MR. HUBER: I think -- I think Greg is

14 correct. What we need to do, we're trying to set

15 the minimum.

16 MS. WIDDER: Mm-hmm.

17 MR. HUBER: And I mean, we're assuming

18 the market -- the market is going to drive it to a

19 higher -- to a higher level. So these other motor

20 technologies will be offered by manufacturers, as

21 in lieu of the minimum. And therefore, it'll get

22 into the marketplace.
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1 I think if you get too complex and try

2 to add too many different styles of motors and

3 you're trying to pick winners and losers and it's

4 just -- it's going to be a problem. So what I

5 think we ought to do is use the induction motor as

6 a minimally compliant.

7 And in the case of controlled, we

8 probably need to sit down because there's not real

9 accurate information available, sit down and come

10 up with a discount or a percentage that is going -

11 - the efficiency is going to drop from 100, 75, 50

12 and 25 and we ought to be able to get some

13 reasonable information from our motor people so

14 that you can put it in a table and that's what

15 everybody uses and that we know that a tested --

16 as you've said many, many times -- a tested

17 configuration will always be better.

18 And I think that's what we ought to do.

19 Anything other than that it's going to get so

20 complex and so burdensome we're not going to be

21 able to handle it.

22 MS. WIDDER: Mm-hmm.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Rob Boteler?

2 MR. BOTELER: Yeah, Rob Boteler, Nidec.

3 Speaking on behalf of NEMA, we don't have any

4 standards for advanced technologies right now. And

5 our technical subcommittee is working on those

6 standards because we recognize, as Al says, that,

7 you know, that's the wave of the future coming.

8 But if you reached out today to try and

9 build the curve, it wouldn't be something that

10 would be a NEMA specification. It'd be something

11 you'd have to get from each individual

12 manufacturer.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary Fernstrom?

14 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. Okay,

15 fine. If industry is happy with the two

16 alternatives, a relatively low calculated standard

17 efficiency and testing as the alternative, that's

18 fine.

19 MS. WIDDER: Good.

20 MR. FERNSTROM: I just wanted to raise

21 the option of a little more sophistication in the

22 calculated version.
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1 MS. WIDDER: And I will say I think it

2 achieves your objective almost a little bit better

3 because it allows for not only differentiation

4 among motor types but differentiation within that

5 motor type, so different ECMs that may perform

6 better or worse can be differentiated if you're

7 doing a wire-to-water test whereas if we specified

8 a curve for an ECM versus an induction or, you

9 know, then you're just -- you get what you get.

10 And so, it locks you in a little bit. Okay.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis? Well --

12 MR. ECKMAN: I think two things. Doing

13 it that way avoids the potential of selecting the

14 wrong defaults for all those others that we end up

15 with a test result that's worse than the

16 calculator, which is not a good outcome.

17 MS. WIDDER: Right.

18 MR. ECKMAN: So I think that avoids that

19 problem. It does raise another problem though. If

20 a distributor decides that they want to modify any

21 of the pieces beyond the minimally compliant, then

22 they're in the test game. So I just want to
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1 acknowledge that they're in the test game. So if

2 they --

3 MS. WIDDER: For motors.

4 MR. ECKMAN: If they want to change a

5 motor or a control, right, we have a default --

6 MS. WIDDER: We have a default control

7 curve. So they could take the -- I mean, it

8 depends a lot on how that scenario would play out.

9 But if they were to take, let's say, a bare pump

10 and a motor from a manufacturer and apply a

11 control to it, they could apply the default --

12 MR. ECKMAN: The default control.

13 MS. WIDDER: -- control curve and

14 receive credit for that.

15 MR. ECKMAN: But if they change the

16 motor out, they'd have --

17 MS. WIDDER: But if they change the

18 motor, they could -- they could get credit for the

19 change in full load efficiency because there's

20 calculations for that.

21 MR. ECKMAN: Right, but if they change

22 the motor type out from an induction motor --
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1 MS. WIDDER: Right, that would not be

2 reflected in the current approach.

3 MR. ADIN: Unless they do the full pump

4 test.

5 MS. WIDDER: Unless they test. That

6 would be their option.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Al Huber?

8 MR. HUBER: And I may be incorrect about

9 this but it's my understanding once they start

10 doing that, they become a manufacturer at that

11 point. So therefore, they are subject to the same

12 requirements that we are.

13 MS. WIDDER: Mm-hmm.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: I recall from yesterday

15 that DOE general counsel was not wanting to

16 comment on this yet because they know you wanted

17 an answer and they wanted to think it through I

18 think. So Louis Starr?

19 MR. STARR: So you know, the obvious

20 technology that comes to my mind, and it doesn't

21 make as much sense in the three phase but it's

22 Rob's motors. It's ECM in a single phase makes a
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1 lot of sense, as we discovered in circulators,

2 right?

3 That's the only difference in there was

4 that it had a better motor in it and that was for

5 single phase which saw some pretty good savings.

6 The range that we're in now, I don't know, we're

7 probably more into the three phase.

8 But that's what I'm getting at is those

9 things where there's a clear cut technology. A

10 variable speed drive is obviously better than

11 using a damper -- I'm sorry, using a valve.

12 MS. WIDDER: Mm-hmm.

13 MR. STARR: So it -- it's those things

14 where I think there's a clear substantial

15 difference. If we're talking about 5 or 8 percent

16 gain in efficiency, then I think we need to have

17 something there and that will take care of the

18 calculator, you know, not -- I guess the main

19 thing is if everybody's going to test, then that's

20 great.

21 But if everybody's not going to test,

22 then they'll go to the minimum. But if there's a
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1 minimum out there that -- or there's another

2 option out there that makes sense and they want to

3 upgrade, we want to make it easier for that to be

4 there is what I'm thinking.

5 MS. WIDDER: Okay. So I've noted that.

6 We will revisit more information about motor

7 curves. So this might come up again. But now,

8 we're going to walk through some of the examples,

9 starting at the top of this chart and essentially

10 walking across the top row from left to right and

11 then getting into wire-to-water testing and how

12 that might look.

13 Pretty high level, but just walk through

14 where these pieces of information come from and

15 what the equations look like.

16 So for a bare pump, you would test the

17 pump in accordance with HI 40.6, multiply or

18 combine that tested performance data that's

19 represented about the pump with standard motor

20 efficiency data and a default part load curve

21 that's provided within the pump test procedure and

22 then the standardized controls performance is
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1 really just one. So that can be disregarded in

2 this case.

3 It's just meant to, you know, have the

4 same visual for every case. The Pi values, or the

5 pump input values, that are inserted into the

6 equation would be the linearly fit shaft input

7 power, as we discussed previously, at each load

8 point, the load points being 75, 100 and 110 of

9 BEP flow race which we've agreed upon and then

10 equally weighting those pump -- those points.

11 The standardized motor performance, as

12 we've discussed, would be an enclosed motor that

13 is minimally compliant with DOE's motor

14 regulations.

15 For general purpose motors, subtype one

16 and, well, actually this is reflective of -- this

17 particular slide has not been updated to the new

18 motor standards because there's not subtype one

19 and subtype two anymore. Now they're just, you

20 know, whatever name class you are. But yes?

21 MR. FERNSTROM: Sarah, this is Gary. I

22 thought a previous slide you showed, showed a
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1 percentage of best efficiency point lower than 75.

2 MS. WIDDER: That's correct. But that's

3 only for the variable load or controlled

4 application.

5 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay. I understand.

6 Thank you.

7 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. I could have color8 coded those differently maybe. But yes. Yeah,

9 that'll come later. But for a bare pump,

10 uncontrolled, this is all the data we need. The

11 horsepower, as we discussed, will be the next

12 horsepower above brake horsepower at 120 percent

13 of BEP flow.

14 So essentially calculate what your 120

15 percent of BEP flow shaft horsepower is, round up.

16 That's the horsepower bin for motor size that you

17 would be in and the efficiency associated with

18 that motor size. And the poles would be based on

19 the speed at which the pump is being rated.

20 Standardized control performance, the efficiency

21 is 100 percent. It's just one in this case.

22 So here's what the equation looks like
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1 for determining our PER which goes on the top of

2 the PEI equation, the PER pump which is ratioed

3 over the minimally compliant pump.

4 We have the weighted average of the pump

5 shaft input power, which is what the P represents

6 with the blue triangle over it. That's back from

7 -- or the pump curve that we observed previously.

8 And then the L is the motor losses. So

9 we are combining or accounting for motor losses

10 using this L factor that's also in horsepower

11 that's reflective of the drop in efficiency of the

12 motor at part loading at the different load

13 points.

14 And then just plugging in that

15 information, there -- those are the tested data.

16 And then, here's a little bit more information

17 about how these motor loss curves were generated.

18 We've discussed this previously and so

19 I'm going to sort of gloss over it. But if you

20 have specific questions or comments, please bring

21 them up. Based on looking at motor data,

22 initially we were using motor challenge data.
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1 We've been provided with some updated

2 information from NEMA that's more reflective of

3 motors in the market and this size class of motors

4 that we're considering.

5 They would be paired with pumps and

6 based on that data, a cubic relationship is still

7 a good way to describe the motor loss curve. I've

8 got some examples of curves that we can look at

9 later. But we found a cubic to still be

10 appropriate.

11 And essentially, you calculate that

12 specific fractional loss by taking the full load

13 loss times the fraction of load.

14 So if, you know, you were at 100 percent

15 of motor load, you would need to scale that to,

16 you know, what's your pump load and what is that

17 really in terms of percentage load on your motor.

18 Seventy-five percent of BEP flow really might be

19 something like 55 or 60 percent of motor load

20 times your -- times your, sorry, full load rated

21 losses and then plugged into this polynomial.

22 The A, B, C and D are how we described
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1 this equation and what would vary if we want to

2 have a lot of different kinds of curves. And

3 that's noted on the bottom here.

4 A different cubic polynomial, so these

5 different coefficients, could be assumed based on

6 motor type, number of poles, enclosed versus open,

7 a lot of different factors. We could have, you

8 know, tables upon tables of coefficients.

9 But we -- right now what's in these

10 slides and what we've been considering is just

11 differentiating based on number of poles and open

12 versus enclosed and then really just focusing on

13 that minimally compliant induction motor that's

14 covered by DOE.

15 And so that's the data that was provided

16 by NEMA. So that's what's reflected in the motor

17 loss curve data we have right now. That's what we

18 were considering before. But as we discussed, we

19 could consider other options.

20 This is an example of one of the curves.

21 This is actually comparing the yellow and green

22 icons, squares and diamonds, are the curves that
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1 we showed at the last meeting based on the motor

2 challenge data and -- or no, I'm sorry. Excuse

3 me.

4 The blue diamond is the old curve based

5 on the motor challenge data and the yellow and

6 green squares are representative of the data that

7 NEMA provided us. The maximum values is really

8 the average.

9 So that's -- I should revise that. But

10 so the green triangles, or the green diamonds in

11 the middle there is the average of manufacturer

12 efficiency for this ODP at 3,600 rpm.

13 So that describes how the losses changed

14 at fractional loading for all the pumps from one

15 to 200 horsepower. Now, NEMA also broke out those

16 efficiencies by horsepower. And that might be

17 another variable we want to consider. Actually,

18 I'll show you guys a chart so you can see the

19 impact of that. This is really slow. Maybe I

20 won't. Here we go.

21 So this is the data that was provided,

22 motor losses by horsepower. And the thing that you
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1 can see that there is a trend, decreases in

2 efficiency obviously with motor size but also

3 changes in the shape of the curve with motor size.

4 Now, you know, having different

5 coefficients based on horsepower bin would

6 certainly add to the complexity of how we apply

7 this default loss curve. But that's data thanks

8 to NEMA that we have now and so disaggregation

9 that we can do.

10 I would -- I would note that this -- the

11 impact on the rated PEI of the pump with these

12 changes, if we assume, say the one horsepower

13 curve versus the 100 horsepower curve is extremely

14 minimal just because the losses are -- the motor

15 losses are so small compared to the power rating

16 or the energy use of the pump that the changes in

17 efficiency -- the changes in the motor loss curve

18 -- the motor loss curve shape and how that

19 extrapolates, or is calculated into the actual

20 motor losses and then combined with the pump

21 horsepower is just -- it has a minimal impact on

22 even the pump PER much less the PEI.
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1 It's like a 1 percent or less, probably

2 much less than 1 percent. So but that data is

3 available. So that's something we'll accept input

4 on now or later.

5 In terms of the curves that we used in

6 these examples, we just took the average

7 efficiency, converted it to losses that was

8 provided by NEMA and then we applied this

9 conservative value is applying a conservative

10 factor that we discussed last time and essentially

11 scales with fraction of load. So you have more

12 conservative values as you go down the loading.

13 NEMA has also suggested that we just use the

14 minimum NEMA bands.

15 So we go -- it's more like a bias then

16 as opposed to a scaling factor and just go, you

17 know, two NEMA bands down to describe a true

18 minimum. That's another option that we could

19 consider. But in general, the motor loss curve

20 will take this shape.

21 Unless we receive other data or input,

22 we'll base it on the data that was provided by
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1 NEMA and then make it conservative, or make it

2 reflective of a worst case motor, representative

3 of a worst case motor.

4 One issue here is that not all motors

5 are covered that might be paired with pumps within

6 our scope are covered by DOE's motor regulations.

7 MR. STARR: I had a question.

8 MS. WIDDER: Yeah, sorry.

9 MR. STARR: So Louis Starr with NEEA. I

10 notice in the chart of many motors you had on the

11 previous one where you had multiple ones, it looks

12 like really the problem is in the smaller

13 horsepower.

14 MS. WIDDER: Yeah.

15 MR. STARR: Particularly less than three

16 horsepower. Is there thought of maybe -- because

17 really the performance of the large ones don't

18 really drop of very much as you go down. But they

19 do in the smaller ones.

20 So if the market share of installed

21 motors and pumps are more kind of where that

22 number is and sort of the median of that -- kind
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1 of using that number to see -- or if nothing else,

2 doing a weighted average of what kind of --

3 MS. WIDDER: Right.

4 MR. STARR: -- the bins of pumps you

5 know --

6 MS. WIDDER: Right.

7 MR. STARR: You know, those one to three

8 and then something like that because, you know --

9 MS. WIDDER: So shipment weighted as

10 opposed to straight weighted.

11 MR. STARR: Yeah, I mean, to me, I look

12 there and I see the green ones, one horsepower, is

13 that that very bottom one?

14 MS. WIDDER: Yeah, that's one

15 horsepower.

16 MR. STARR: So it's quite a bit and it

17 sounds like you did a sensitivity analysis. I

18 wasn't quite sure. In other words, see how it

19 makes a difference to the curves.

20 MS. WIDDER: Yeah, so we found the

21 equation for each of these horsepower bins

22 separately --
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1 MR. STARR: Right.

2 MS. WIDDER: -- and plugged in the

3 highest and the lowest.

4 MR. STARR: And then that's your bounds

5 that you had on the other chart.

6 MS. WIDDER: And that's your bounds --

7 well, that's actually not presented on the other

8 chart.

9 MR. STARR: Okay.

10 MS. WIDDER: I apologize. That was just

11 me talking.

12 MR. STARR: Okay.

13 MS. WIDDER: I didn't make graphs of

14 everything. But that was certainly this worst

15 case small horsepower pump is within the

16 conservative range that's reflected on the other

17 part, on the other chart.

18 MR. STARR: Okay.

19 MS. WIDDER: It wasn't used to generate

20 it but it's within the range.

21 MR. STARR: When you kicked out your PER

22 number, how much difference did it matter if you
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1 used the one as opposed to the 100 horsepower

2 motor? Did it make a lot of difference or was it

3 like half a percent or something?

4 MS. WIDDER: Like a half a percent or

5 less.

6 MR. STARR: Okay, all right, so maybe.

7 All right.

8 MS. WIDDER: Yeah, if you think about

9 how it affects the actual motor losses, so you

10 take those coefficients, which may change some and

11 you multiply it by the fractional loading of the

12 motor and so even if you change dramatically,

13 you're multiplying by a power number that then is

14 added to a much larger power number that's not

15 affected by this at all. And so, the incremental

16 difference is just very small.

17 MR. STARR: I think it probably doesn't

18 matter but just for the purposes of doing

19 something, some kind of weighted thing probably

20 makes better sense.

21 MS. WIDDER: Yeah.

22 MR. STARR: I bet if Steve Rosenstock
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1 was here --

2 (Laughter.)

3 MS. WIDDER: Yes.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: He's on the phone.

5 MS. WIDDER: So this is something that

6 even following up on this meeting I'm just sort of

7 presenting some things that we're considering to

8 think -- continuing to think about as we develop

9 the proposal.

10 If we don't receive input now, we will

11 propose probably something similar to what's being

12 discussed here and then we can accept comments at

13 that time too. So this is not the only

14 opportunity you'll have to see this.

15 And we may further refine some of this

16 as well, do some more sensitive analysis. I just

17 received this data on Friday, or Thursday or

18 something, so very recently.

19 So going back up, there we are. Okay,

20 so we have a motor loss curve. In this case, we

21 have an ODP 3,600 rpm depicted here. And we've

22 applied those coefficients to our motor losses.
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1 One issue that we need to resolve,

2 especially in the case of bare pump motor -- bare

3 shaft motors is what the minimally compliant motor

4 that the standard is based upon will be, what is

5 the representative -- what's representative of the

6 worst case motor for those motors that are not

7 covered by DOE.

8 So this is applicable for submersible

9 pumps that might be paired with submersible

10 motors. We discussed this at the last webinar and

11 didn't really come up with any other pump types

12 that -- or motor types that we might want to come

13 up with a table for. Continue to welcome comment

14 on that.

15 But in the absence of any, we did come

16 up with a submersible pump efficiency table that

17 will be in the version 12 of the calculator. We

18 showed some preliminary data at the last webinar

19 that I think we received feedback from the group

20 was along the lines of reasonable. It was

21 slightly lower than what is the case for NEMA --

22 the NEMA motors that are covered. And this was
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1 the method we used to develop those efficiency

2 values.

3 We surveyed industry literature to find

4 all of the motor efficiencies in the same

5 horsepower bands that are applied to the induction

6 motors and then selected the lowest efficiency

7 available in each horsepower bin and we could also

8 apply a scaling factor to ensure that it is in

9 fact a minimum because although we tried to be

10 comprehensive in our search, we may have missed

11 some. Yeah?

12 MR. BOTELER: This is Rob Boteler with

13 Nidec. The new motor rule that goes into effect

14 in June of 2016, it pretty much covers I think all

15 of the motors that would be used on pumps because

16 it has been expanded to include partial motors. So

17 if partial motors are included, polyphase only,

18 but you're right. It doesn't cover submersible

19 motors whatsoever.

20 MS. WIDDER: Okay.

21 MR. BOTELER: But I think -- I don't

22 think there's anything else that wouldn't be
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1 covered in the induction motor polyphase category.

2 MS. WIDDER: Thank you for that. That's

3 very helpful. Okay, so this is just carrying out

4 all that method that we discussed.

5 Just to remind everyone what we're

6 doing, full load rated losses times the part load

7 factor that's determined using the cubic

8 polynomial. We add that to the pump shaft input

9 power to determine the input power to the pump and

10 motor in this theoretical construct and we come up

11 with a fractional input power at each of those

12 load points that's on the very right-hand side of

13 this chart. Okay, then we plug that into our PER

14 equation and take a weighted average of the three

15 load points for the uncontrolled case, this

16 constant load case.

17 I need to update that motor efficiency.

18 But so -- or no, it's the same motor efficiency. I

19 apologize. So the PER CL in this case is based on

20 a motor efficiency of 92.6 percent from the DOE

21 motor regulations and then we come up with a PER

22 constant load for this pump of 49.71. And it was
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1 a 60 horsepower pump, just for context.

2 And then calculate the PEI constant load

3 as a ratio of the PER constant load for that pump,

4 that 49.71 number, over the maximum PER that would

5 be allowed for a pump with the same -- to serve

6 the same hydraulic load. I won't say the same

7 hydraulic characteristics because it's a minimally

8 compliant, minimally -- minimum efficiency pump.

9 But they serve the same hydraulic load. And okay,

10 yeah, there we go. So now moving on to bare pump

11 and --

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg Towsley?

13 MS. WIDDER: Yes, go ahead.

14 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg Towsley, Grundfos.

15 Joanna just walked out. But can you go back one

16 slide?

17 MS. WIDDER: Yes.

18 MR. TOWSLEY: Maybe another can confirm.

19 So the three horsepower shown up there, 43, 53,

20 51, 25, those are based on our test calculations

21 or test procedures pulled there. My question to

22 Joanna would be are those the kind of data that
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1 you're talking about reporting into the database.

2 MR. ECKMAN Yes.

3 MR. TOWSLEY: Okay. That's -- I just

4 wanted to ask that clarifying question.

5 MS. WIDDER: Yeah.

6 MR. HUBER: (Off mic.)

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber?

8 MR. HUBER: The denominator, PER max,

9 that is the minimally compliant pump. So why are

10 we calling it max? Shouldn't it be minimum?

11 MS. WIDDER: It's confusing. It's a

12 maximum value.

13 MR. HUBER: It certainly is confusing.

14 MS. WIDDER: So we described it as max

15 because PER min is -- I mean, PER min is

16 associated with minimally compliant. But it's

17 actually a maximum value. So it's the highest

18 energy use that the pump could use. I mean, we

19 could use it -- call it PER standard. How's that?

20 MR. HUBER: That would be better.

21 MS. WIDDER: Okay, I'll change that.

22 I'll change it on this slide. It probably will
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1 come up again.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg Towsley?

3 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg Towsley, Grundfos.

4 And this is kind of a rewind, just wanted to share

5 an observation. Sarah was on such a roll, I

6 didn't want to stop her.

7 Going back to Louis' comment or question

8 and the comment about the curve -- efficiency

9 curves of the different motors and particularly

10 how it drops off more on one to three horsepower,

11 based on the calculation on the way this works and

12 how the calculator chooses the next greater motor,

13 it drops off the least amount within 75 to 100

14 percent of load.

15 And so, if you pick a -- if your pump

16 horsepower is 2.1, the calculator's going to

17 choose a three horsepower motor and 2.1 is about

18 70 percent. So the way the motor sizing works in

19 the calculator, you won't see much below 75

20 percent on the drop-off on the correction factor.

21 So I don't think that we need to spend much time

22 really looking at changing the bins or that --
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1 MS. WIDDER: Okay.

2 MR. TOWSLEY: I don't think it will

3 change much on there.

4 MS. WIDDER: Yeah, thank you.

5 MR. STARR: So it's more the sensitivity

6 analysis about 75 percent on the motor curves is

7 what you're saying.

8 MS. WIDDER: Right.

9 MR. STARR: Okay, well yeah.

10 MS. WIDDER: Yeah.

11 MR. STARR: So maybe it won't make as

12 much difference.

13 MS. WIDDER: Yeah.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: (Off mic.)

15 MS. WIDDER: Sure, yeah.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Is this a good spot?

17 MS. WIDDER: Let's do -- yeah, I think

18 this is a great stop. Let's stop with the bare

19 pump case, which we got through. And I think the

20 rest of these slides will go much quicker because

21 a lot of it is exactly the same with like one

22 minor little difference.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: That was -- that was a

2 good presentation. I thought that was well done.

3 And let's take a break right now. It's 10:25 and

4 let's resume at 10:40. Please remember to wear

5 your badge. You know where the restrooms are and

6 the coffee shop is and we'll resume at 10:40.

7 And for those of you that are joining us

8 online, welcome. I hope this is working for you,

9 that you're able to hear everything comfortably.

10 (WHEREUPON, a recess was taken.)

11 MR. BROOKMAN: And we're returning to

12 Sarah Widder.

13 MS. WIDDER: Okay. Thank you, Doug.

14 Resuming where we left off, we had just summarized

15 and then reviewed in detail how one would go about

16 calculating a PEI for a pump sold as a bare pump

17 with default motor and controls performance. Now,

18 we're going to take that one step further and

19 discuss how -- the method -- the calculation

20 method that was still in that top line of the

21 chart that one could use to test a bare pump and

22 motor.
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1 So here's two options. These are just

2 different ways of presenting the same information

3 that was in the table we reviewed earlier. You

4 could test the motor and pump together as a

5 system. That's the A option here that's a wire6 to-water test.

7 Again, you can sort of ignore the

8 controls performance in this case. Or type B,

9 where we're still using a calculation approach and

10 just tested pump data, just tested data with the

11 pump in accordance with 40.6 and then tested motor

12 data but they would not need to be tested

13 together.

14 So that's -- we're going to talk about

15 the B approach for now. We'll talk about A when

16 we talk about wire-to-water testing later on.

17 Determining the PEI for bare pump sold with a

18 motor is extremely similar to calculating the PEI

19 for a bare pump sold alone. The only thing that's

20 different is that the losses, the L factors here,

21 is calculated where the rated losses is the full

22 load losses of the motor that's sold with that
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1 pump.

2 And so, instead of looking up the

3 minimally efficient motor, you could assume the

4 efficiency. You would take the full load

5 efficiency of that motor that was tested in

6 accordance with the DOE test procedure and use

7 that plugged into this equation, converting

8 efficiency to losses and then applying the default

9 loss curve. And that's how these L numbers would

10 come. The only thing that's changed in that whole

11 description is the motor efficiency that's

12 assumed.

13 Instead of a table, it's now the tested

14 full load motor efficiency. Pretty much

15 everything else is exactly the same. That's our

16 tested data from HI 40.6. This is the same table

17 that we saw before. For this 60 horsepower motor,

18 we've assumed that the motor efficiency is 95

19 percent and that for a 60 horsepower motor has

20 full load loss of 3.16 horsepower.

21 Other values, the same tested data, same

22 pump in this case, comes out to a PER of 49.03
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1 which is slightly lower than I think it was 49.71

2 in the bare pump case. That's off the top of my

3 head but it's slightly lower than the bare pump

4 case. So we're reflecting the improved

5 performance of the motor, albeit minor.

6 And then back to your comment, Louis, is

7 a 2 percent change, or 1.5 percent change in motor

8 efficiency only affects the PER by 0.05, you know,

9 the change in the efficiency of the motor shape of

10 the curve is really, really, like, in the noise.

11 And then, we would calculate the PEI as a ratio of

12 the controlled PER that we were showing here over

13 the standard PER. It still says max here but

14 really we mean standard.

15 So this is another slide that we had

16 used before in the last time we discussed motor

17 losses. And so, I just wanted to review all of

18 what we discussed previously. There are a few

19 other -- or there is actually about one other

20 option for accounting for motor losses when the

21 pump is sold with a motor.

22 So previously, we just had to assume
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1 default loss curves because we were assuming a

2 motor. When you have a motor that's paired with a

3 pump, you can test that motor. And so, in

4 addition to using the full load tested efficiency,

5 there is an option of using full tested efficiency

6 at part loading of the motor as opposed to the

7 default loss curve if the pump is sold with a

8 motor.

9 So you could get that data from your

10 motor manufacturer. We discussed yesterday, and

11 Dan provided -- Dan Delaney who was here at that

12 time provided a lot of input about what test

13 procedures might be appropriate for those cases

14 and also mentioned that AEDMs could potentially be

15 considered.

16 That's an alternative energy

17 determination method that is an algorithm for

18 determining efficiency. DOE has very specific

19 requirements for that. It's allowed for full load

20 efficiency of motors today. There is no DOE test

21 procedure at this time for part load testing --

22 testing of part load efficiency for motors or
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1 related AEDMs.

2 And so, that would be a new proposal.

3 That would be a new thing that would be

4 incorporated into the pumps test procedure is this

5 test procedure for part load, determining motor

6 efficiency at part load if that data were

7 important for calculating the efficiency of pumps.

8 We discussed earlier in that table of

9 options, the primary options for determining the

10 PEI of a pump sold with a motor as you test the

11 pump and then you use the full load, the certified

12 full load efficiency of that motor which is --

13 there is a DOE test procedure for that.

14 That's not incrementally burdensome. You

15 apply the default motor loss curve which we've

16 discussed that that has really minimal impact on

17 the PEI and then you can use a calculation

18 approach or you do a full wire-to-water test if

19 you're interested in capturing the performance of

20 better or different motors.

21 So this using measured part load

22 efficiencies is sort of a hybrid of those two. You
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1 would be imposing additional burden potentially on

2 motor manufacturers to supply you with that data

3 and also making the pumps test procedure

4 potentially more complicated because now you have

5 a whole motor test procedure as part of the pumps

6 test procedure.

7 So however we did receive comments in

8 the last discussion about how that data is

9 available and already collected as part of the DOE

10 test procedure, although it's not reported. So

11 that's -- this is just a review sort of what we

12 discussed last time. I don't think DOE has a

13 proposal.

14 I think it's really up -- we request

15 feedback from both pump and motor manufacturers as

16 to whether this more burdensome part load

17 efficiency data option is attractive or beneficial

18 or if it's -- if this medium, this middle approach

19 which is what we've discussed pretty much to date,

20 is sufficient with the wire-to-water test as an

21 option for capturing better motor performance.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: I have a question.
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1 MS. WIDDER: Yeah.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: When you array options

3 for a test procedure like this, I should probably

4 know this but I don't, do you offer a primary

5 option plus alternatives? Do you offer one

6 method? Do you -- how does that typically shake

7 out?

8 MS. WIDDER: I think Lucas would like to

9 respond to that.

10 MR. ADIN: So, well, I'll just make sure

11 that I understand your question correctly first.

12 MS. WIDDER: Okay.

13 MR. ADIN: You're asking about a way

14 that a test procedure is proposed in the actual

15 notice of proposed rulemaking, how options are

16 described?

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, or -- yes.

18 MR. ADIN: So the proposed test

19 procedure is the option that DOE is officially

20 proposing. To the extent there are other options

21 we could consider, those would be described in the

22 preamble.
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1 But if DOE were to receive feedback that

2 one of those options would be preferable to what

3 DOE actually proposed, we would have to do a

4 supplemental notice of proposed rulemaking to

5 propose that other option.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: I see.

7 MR. ADIN: So we can't propose multiple

8 -- make multiple official proposals. There's

9 really just one with other possibilities described

10 in the preamble and then if we wanted to do

11 something else, we'd have to amend the original

12 proposal.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, so that's helpful.

14 That's useful. And then my follow-on, I guess

15 does -- do test procedures say is it that there is

16 more than one possible method to provide the

17 answer or does it say this is how you do it and

18 you always say this one test procedure, period?

19 MR. ADIN: So there are other cases in

20 which the prescribed DOE test method has multiple

21 ways of calculating or measuring a particular

22 value for a given product.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: That's what I wanted to

2 know.

3 MR. ADIN: Yes.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you. I

5 probably should know that. Al?

6 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson. Our

7 consensus here is that as long -- we don't have

8 any problem using the default loss curves as long

9 as they're the same ones that are used to

10 calculate the minimum standard. We have no

11 problem.

12 MS. WIDDER: All right. Thank you.

13 That's very helpful.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: That's for that input.

15 That's helpful.

16 MS. WIDDER: Okay. Great.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: I just wondered if there

18 are any other inputs? Nothing additional from the

19 other caucus? Okay.

20 MS. WIDDER: Okay. So the -- that's the

21 end of discussing testing, rating, determining the

22 PEI of a bare pump sold with a motor. It was very
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1 similar to rating a bare pump except for the

2 change in motor efficiency, especially because we

3 didn't receive feedback -- thank you for that --

4 that it's not necessary to determine tested part

5 load efficiencies. I think that makes all our

6 lives easier.

7 So now moving on to the option of a --

8 or the configuration of a bare pump sold with a

9 motor and controls and how that varies. This will

10 be a little bit different than the case of a bare

11 pump or a bare pump with motors.

12 So we have two options again that are

13 similar to the bare pump or bare pump plus motor

14 case. The first one is a calculation-based option

15 where we have just tested the pump in a test

16 stand. We have manufacturer or default motor

17 efficiency. Either of those can be used. Really

18 it's probably manufacturer because it's difficult

19 to put a drive on a pump without a motor.

20 But from a regulatory perspective, we

21 don't really -- yeah. You could -- you know what,

22 we're not wanting to limit to anyone's
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1 distribution options as part of this.

2 And the default controls performance in

3 this case would be a described system curve that

4 would be used to determine how pump shaft input

5 power and then subsequent input power to the pump

6 system dropped off with respect to flow rate based

7 on this described system curve that we'll provide

8 a visual of.

9 And then option B is to instead of

10 calculating those input powers to the pump system

11 at those flow rates, you would just go and test

12 them in a wire-to-water method, input power to the

13 controls. So we're going to talk about the

14 calculation method here and then we'll talk about

15 the testing method when we get to the wire-to16 water testing portion of this slide deck.

17 So here is the weighted average

18 equation. In this case, the main difference is

19 that we have different flow points, 25, 50, 75 and

20 100 percent of BEP flow as opposed to the three

21 75, 100 and 110 percent for the uncontrolled case.

22 And that is -- was determined by this group to be
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1 more representative of the performance you might

2 see in a controlled system.

3 Still equal weighting. The one point in

4 the pump performance category that I'd like to

5 emphasize is that the 100 percent of BEP flow rate

6 for this case when you're calculating the

7 performance is the only tested point. That is the

8 only data you need, that the pump shaft input

9 power at 100 percent of BEP flow is then

10 extrapolated using this system curve to the

11 different flow points down the curve.

12 So that best efficiency point on this

13 flow versus head curve, the blue curve is the

14 regular pump curve that you would follow with no

15 speed reduction and then the green curve is -- it

16 says original VFD load profile but it's

17 essentially the affinity laws, you know, a squared

18 equation of head with respect to flow.

19 And then we received some feedback from

20 manufacturers -- this has been discussed before --

21 that we should assume a static head component of

22 the system curve. Was that --
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1 MR. HUBER: Twenty percent.

2 MS. WIDDER: Yeah, 20 percent of head at

3 BEP flow. So we changed the equation a little bit

4 to accommodate that. But essentially that BEP

5 flow point is the only tested point that comes

6 from 40.6.

7 And then you plug in the head at BEP and

8 flow at BEP and then that Q is the percentage of

9 BEP flow that you're looking for, 25 percent of

10 BEP flow that is also calculated. And then you

11 get the head at that place and then you can

12 calculate the power or you can do some

13 manipulations to this equation to give you power

14 if this is the output.

15 But essentially, that's BEP flow -- 100

16 percent of BEP flow is the only tested point. And

17 then we have assumed this system curve to

18 calculate the rest of our head or power -- shaft

19 input power values that would go into the

20 equation.

21 In terms of motor performance, the L

22 rated, the rated full load losses is that of the
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1 motor paired with the pump, so the motor

2 efficiency that is paired with that pump -- bare

3 pump -- is what would be used. The same default

4 loss curve or there was some discussion about

5 potentially different loss curves for the

6 controlled system. That might be appropriate, but

7 default loss curves that would be described in the

8 test procedure.

9 And then the controlled performance, it

10 does not need -- is captured by that calculation

11 of the reduced power -- shaft input power,

12 assuming the system curve.

13 So there's really no other -- it's

14 already captured in the way we calculated pump

15 shaft input power. We don't need to do anything

16 else except for account for drive efficiency so

17 that we can ensure that if you were to do the

18 wire-to-water test, you would get a better value.

19 In this case, we've assumed a static

20 drive efficiency of 96 percent. We of course

21 welcome data and input on that, if there should be

22 a curve associated with it, if it should be more
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1 conservative, all of this. Yes, Al?

2 MR. HUBER: You have to have a curve

3 with this.

4 MS. WIDDER: Okay.

5 MR. HUBER: And you're going to have to

6 be -- you need to be conservative --

7 MS. WIDDER: Mm-hmm.

8 MR. HUBER: -- because there's not a lot

9 of tested data. But we know that it does not

10 remain at 96.

11 MS. WIDDER: Okay.

12 MR. HUBER: And we know that it could go

13 as low as 50, 60 down at 25. So that's a huge --

14 it could be a huge delta.

15 MS. WIDDER: Okay.

16 MR. HUBER: And you can't -- if you

17 don't, we'll never have anything to pass --

18 MS. WIDDER: Right, and that --

19 MR. HUBER: -- if we're testing it and

20 that's not what we're after here.

21 MS. WIDDER: No, that's not what any of

22 us want.
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1 MR. HUBER: So I -- you know, there is

2 some data. We sent you some data.

3 MS. WIDDER: Yes.

4 MR. HUBER: And you know, you might want

5 to share it with this group so that these other

6 folks could see it.

7 MS. WIDDER: Okay.

8 MR. HUBER: But it's got to be very,

9 very conservative so that we make sure that when

10 we test, we get something better. I mean, that's

11 what we're all after anyway, so.

12 MS. WIDDER: Yeah.

13 MR. HUBER: The other thing that I would

14 -- I would like to point out is that you need to -

15 - you need to develop a loss curve for motors used

16 with controls. As Bob was saying, one of the

17 problems that we have is, is that we know the

18 efficiency drops off because of a change in the

19 sine wave and the frequency and so forth.

20 So that also needs to be developed and

21 put in here. Otherwise you're going to end up

22 with two controls -- motor loss curves, one for
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1 controlled, one for variable.

2 MS. WIDDER: Right.

3 MR. HUBER: And you're going to have to

4 have it. Otherwise, again, we're going to be --

5 we're going to be penalizing the pump and when we

6 test the whole combination it's not going to work

7 out.

8 MS. WIDDER: Right. Okay, so that's one

9 thing. So thank you very much for that input. I

10 have not had time to look -- I have looked at the

11 data you sent but I haven't translated it all the

12 way to curves yet, although I'm working on that,

13 and will be able to share it soon.

14 So one question that I would have -- and

15 this is part of the reason I didn't send out the

16 calculator, is that there's not a different motor

17 loss curves or efficiency -- drive efficiency

18 curves incorporated into version 12 of the

19 calculator at this time. Would you want to wait

20 for that or not? Okay.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber.

22 MR. HUBER: Our suggestion is that you
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1 make it a separate calculator.

2 MS. WIDDER: Okay.

3 MR. HUBER: So you have one calculator

4 for constant load and one calculator for variable

5 load.

6 MS. WIDDER: Okay.

7 MR. HUBER: Then you can go ahead and

8 issue the one for controlled.

9 MS. WIDDER: Okay, that's a good

10 suggestion.

11 MR. HUBER: I mean, the constant load

12 and then we would have that and then develop the

13 other one.

14 MS. WIDDER: Okay.

15 MR. HUBER: And then we'd be glad to

16 help you with it or comment on it or whatever.

17 MS. WIDDER: Yeah.

18 MR. HUBER: But I think that's what we

19 need to do in this case.

20 MS. WIDDER: Okay.

21 MR. HUBER: They are two separate

22 things. Let's keep them separated. I think it'll
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1 be clearer for the -- for the users and for the

2 industry to understand.

3 MS. WIDDER: Okay, great.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Rob Boteler?

5 MR. BOTELER: Yeah, Rob Boteler with

6 Nidec. Yeah, we would agree. Nidec motor

7 manufacturers have been discussing this with some

8 of the drive manufacturers.

9 And we'd agree with what Al said, that

10 the losses are considerably -- the efficiency is

11 considerably less than the 96, maybe not into the

12 50s but certainly into the 80s on the lower

13 horsepower machines and slightly higher on the

14 higher horsepower.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, Louis Starr?

16 MR. STARR: So eventually this -- it

17 sounds like they're going to do part load of the

18 controlled one here at full load but then also

19 maybe the other points. And I guess we're

20 assuming 25, 50 and 75. Is that kind of the

21 thought, Sarah, of what the other drive points we

22 might be sticking in to develop a load loss --
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1 MS. WIDDER: Oh, a loss curve.

2 MR. STARR: Yeah, for --

3 MS. WIDDER: Yes. It probably would

4 take a general format similar to the motor losses

5 where you would have a full load efficiency and

6 then some sort of --

7 MR. STARR: Cubic equation.

8 MS. WIDDER: Yeah, cubic or other type

9 of, you know, equation that described how that

10 efficiency changed with load, with decreased load.

11 MR. STARR: Right.

12 MS. WIDDER: And maybe it's linear in

13 this case.

14 MR. STARR: Right.

15 MS. WIDDER: You know, maybe you're --

16 maybe it's -- there's an exponential.

17 MR. STARR: Right. So the other part of

18 that is that it would be handy to have that

19 information.

20 When people test that, we'd want to know

21 the test points that -- the results of the rest

22 points that those 25, 50, 75 and 100, the same
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1 kind of input information that goes in calculating

2 the PER or PEI in this case. Or would you just --

3 you would just -- in a tested case, I assume --

4 how would that work?

5 MS. WIDDER: So in a tested, what's been

6 discussed here, although we could -- I mean,

7 there's other options. What's been discussed here

8 is similar to -- for the calculation case, we

9 would just test the pump and then you have the

10 tested motor, full load efficiency and a loss

11 curve. The tested drive -- well, actually no.

12 MR. STARR: No.

13 MS. WIDDER: We don't have a test for

14 drives. We would assume a drive efficiency and a

15 loss curve and that would be the calculation

16 option. And then if someone wanted to test, it

17 would be a full wire-to-water test.

18 MR. STARR: Okay, and --

19 MS. WIDDER: Pump to drive.

20 MR. STARR: And that would be at the 25,

21 50, 75?

22 MS. WIDDER: yes, it would be at the
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1 same load points. You would have the same output

2 which is the input power to the pump system at the

3 flow points.

4 MR. STARR: Yeah, okay.

5 MS. WIDDER: Yeah.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber?

7 MR. HUBER: So there's no confusion, the

8 100, 75, 50 and 25 are percentages of BEP.

9 MS. WIDDER: Mm-hmm.

10 MR. HUBER: So the drive speed may not

11 be 25. It may not be 50. It may not -- it's

12 going to be something else and it really doesn't

13 in this case matter. But I mean, you --

14 MR. STARR: Have that difference.

15 MR. HUBER: You have that difference. So

16 you know, we've got to develop some kind of curve.

17 The industry -- the controlled industry, since

18 they're selling variable speed, you would think

19 that they would've already done this. But they

20 have not.

21 (Laughter.)

22 I think it was nice for them to say it's all 98
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1 percent and we're great. But it's just not that

2 way. So you know, that's something we have to

3 have. But we do definitely need this loss curve

4 and I don't know -- and it needs to be

5 conservative again and we'll need the motor loss

6 curve too.

7 MS. WIDDER: Mm-hmm.

8 MR. HUBER: And they have that. So you

9 just need separate ones and I think we'll be fine.

10 MS. WIDDER: Okay.

11 MR. HUBER: But we want to make sure

12 that we don't penalize those people who are trying

13 to test.

14 MR. ALASCIO: I understand the motor

15 loss curve -- (off mic).

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Jeff? Jeff, would you

17 say that for the microphone please?

18 MR. ALASCIO: I believe that the motor

19 loss curves that were provided by NEMA were based

20 on sine wave power at different loads, not on

21 inverter power at different loads and they would

22 in fact be different.
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1 MR. HUBER: Al Huber. Yeah, they do --

2 they definitely will be different. And we need

3 those, so.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you. Louis

5 Starr?

6 MR. STARR: Just one thing to consider.

7 You know, once the pump guys get busy and start

8 testing all this stuff, you're going to start to

9 see --

10 MR. CASE: We already do see.

11 (Laughter.)

12 MR. STARR: Well --

13 MR. CASE: And it's not a good thing.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you, Greg Case. Go

15 ahead, Louis.

16 MR. STARR: I was just going to say when

17 you're doing all that stuff, you're going to start

18 to see combinations of motors and VFDs and

19 performance. And so, the market will -- you know,

20 maybe the people that make motors and VFDs will

21 be, you know -- they may not --

22 MR. CASE: (Off mic.)
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1 MR. STARR: Yeah, so it'll encourage,

2 you know, information that helps you make things

3 more efficient.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, great. I'm

5 returning to Sarah.

6 MS. WIDDER: Okay. So if captured, I

7 think that it's everyone's intent here and the

8 suggestion from Al that the drive efficiency will

9 determine something conservative based on any data

10 -- the data we've already received from HI and

11 NEMA as well as any other feedback we get. And

12 then, we'll come up with based on the same data an

13 assumed part load curve for drives.

14 And separate, Al, it should capture that

15 here, motors and unique part load loss curves. And

16 so we'll also have separate motor loss curves for

17 the controlled case. And you know, I don't have

18 those specifics to share with you today but

19 thankfully we don't need to decide on anything

20 today. But that intent is clear. So thank you.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Rob Boteler?

22 MR. BOTELER: Yeah, I think one thing we
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1 do need to -- we need to be careful here that

2 we're kind of oversimplifying because when we get

3 to the point of the drive working with the motor,

4 if we have no test standard today that's in effect

5 and if we do have a test standard then we're going

6 to have to decide what drive and the effects of

7 waveforms and the effects of switching frequencies

8 and all of those things come into play. So there

9 isn't -- it isn't an easy answer.

10 MS. WIDDER: Yeah.

11 MR. BOTELER: I mean, it can be very

12 difficult and DOE or the pump manufacturers will

13 have to describe what drive, what motor and give

14 us a lot more detail before we could give you

15 really accurate results.

16 MS. WIDDER: Right.

17 MR. BOTELER: Typical we can do. But it

18 depends on what the level of accuracy needs to be.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber?

20 MR. HUBER: For the minimum condition, I

21 mean, I think the pump manufacturers' suggestion

22 for that -- for simplicity -- that you just give
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1 us the typical and then we'll discount it somewhat

2 and know that we can always beat it. And that's

3 what we're after, Rob.

4 We're not after -- we're not after

5 accurate -- we're going to be after you and these

6 control people as an industry to tell us

7 accurately what you do so we can decide whose

8 motor and whose control we want to use.

9 MR. BOTELER: Right.

10 MS. WIDDER: Right. But --

11 MR. HUBER: So, but I think for the sake

12 of this --

13 MR. BOTELER: For this exercise, it'll

14 be typical data.

15 MR. HUBER: Yeah.

16 MS. WIDDER: Right. For this exercise,

17 it'll be typically data and then appropriate

18 discounting, as Al noted, scaling, normalizing,

19 representative of worst case, however you want to

20 describe it.

21 Yeah, so and I -- so one of the reasons

22 we assumed a static efficiency was because the
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1 data is so, A, difficult to find and, B, it's not

2 clear that there's as consistent of a trend or as

3 -- yeah, as consistent of a trend as we saw with

4 the motor losses. In some cases it'll go up and

5 in some cases down, in some cases a lot more down.

6 And so, it might be difficult to

7 describe a representative change in efficiency

8 with decreased loading. So we had assumed a

9 static which we could, you know, assume a very

10 conservative static efficiency. But we'll look at

11 the data and we will do the best that we can to

12 come up with something typical and conservative

13 which I think is clearly what's the intent of the

14 group.

15 Okay. So we already looked at the

16 assumed load curve that -- or system curve that

17 would be applied by the pump to determine the

18 shaft input power at the different flow points.

19 This is just an example calculation for one of the

20 flow points. So this is now taking that head

21 equation and then converting it to power.

22 And so, you're calculating -- you're
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1 using BEP, the power at BEP to determine the power

2 at 75 percent of BEP flow by plugging in the BEP

3 flow and head values and then the flow rate that

4 you're looking for, which is 75 percent of BEP

5 flow or 705 gallons per minute in this case. And

6 you can see the dramatic reduction in the table on

7 the left.

8 It's applied to all of the rating

9 points, same equation, same way and dramatic

10 reduction in power. So this is another thing that

11 I will just reflecting on the values in the table

12 note about the drive efficiency and motor

13 efficiency and trading off again -- we do want to

14 make sure it's conservative I think or

15 representative of worst case such that the testing

16 will do better.

17 I think that is a very important

18 objective. But the extent to which it is

19 technically accurate, like -- or and

20 representative of the actual performance of the

21 motor and the drive traded off with the complexity

22 of what types of equations might need to be
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1 described to characterize that should just be

2 considered when you think about how that will play

3 out with respect to these dramatic decreases in

4 power.

5 So the efficiency of the drive will

6 affect these numbers but we're dropping off a lot.

7 And so, the impact on the power is going to be

8 much more dramatic. And so, it's not that we

9 don't want the calculation to be conservative and

10 worse than testing. We definitely want that.

11 So assuming we achieve that, that's not

12 up for debate, you know, the one thing -- we'll

13 work with the data we have and all of the

14 manufacturers to come up with something we're all

15 comfortable with. But just thinking about, you

16 know, efficiency and loss curves versus a static

17 number, you know, maybe a conservative static

18 number might be easier to apply and not -- because

19 the impact is so minor with respect to the larger

20 impact of the power -- Al, you look like you want

21 to comment on something.

22 MR. HUBER: Yeah, I think -- again,
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1 we've discussed this amongst ourselves. It's a

2 fairly broad range.

3 MS. WIDDER: Mm-hmm.

4 MR. HUBER: And one static constant I

5 don't think is going to get it.

6 MS. WIDDER: Okay.

7 MR. HUBER: I think we want to see a

8 curve.

9 MS. WIDDER: You want to see a curve.

10 MR. HUBER: We want to see a curve.

11 MS. WIDDER: All right. You're the one

12 that has to use the curve, so that's fine with me.

13 MR. HUBER: And what it will show -- so

14 what it would show is those horsepower will

15 actually go up at the lower levels.

16 MS. WIDDER: Yeah, mm-hmm.

17 MR. HUBER: And then when we test it,

18 they'll be below that.

19 MS. WIDDER: Yeah.

20 MR. HUBER: So but it's still going to

21 show dramatic. Even if we're conservative, it's

22 still going to show dramatic changes and that's
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1 what we want I think as a whole group.

2 MS. WIDDER: Right.

3 MR. HUBER: But we just don't want to

4 box ourselves in the corner where we can't --

5 MS. WIDDER: Mm-hmm, you can't test.

6 Right.

7 MR. HUBER: We can't achieve it. That

8 one static would have to be something way low.

9 MS. WIDDER: Right, and it might not be

10 representative.

11 MR. HUBER: And it's probably not going

12 to be representative. You've got to come up with

13 a curve.

14 MS. WIDDER: Okay, we've got to do a

15 curve. Great. Thank you.

16 MR. ADIN: So just to emphasize the

17 point, which we made here and there, but the

18 conservative part is completely understood. But

19 I'm going to -- obviously we want it to be as

20 reasonably representative as possible of the

21 minimally compliant system.

22 So it's like we do with the motor.
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1 That's easy. We can just say the minimally

2 compliant is the DOE standard. We don't have that

3 in this case.

4 But we can say, well, we're going to at

5 least try to get as good an idea as we can about

6 what the minimally compliant system would be based

7 on the worst case drive and that should serve

8 these purposes, as far as I can tell. If you

9 think otherwise, we'd like to know that, but --

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber?

11 MR. HUBER: The only issue we have is

12 that that minimally compliant system is not known.

13 MS. WIDDER: Right.

14 MR. HUBER: And so we would rather err

15 on the side of being conservative than your

16 writing a rule and then we end up where we can't

17 meet it in a tested form.

18 MR. ADIN: That's --

19 MR. HUBER: And you know, that I don't

20 think serves anybody's purpose.

21 MR. ADIN: That's completely understood.

22 Maybe to try and articulate that a little more
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1 clearly, I understood that we don't know exactly

2 what that is. But we at least want to have a good

3 enough idea of what representative means in this

4 case. So it's based on something. You know,

5 we're not just picking a number out of the air. I

6 think we're all on the same page on that.

7 MS. WIDDER: Yeah.

8 MR. ADIN: Yeah. Okay.

9 MS. WIDDER: Okay, great. So applying

10 this method, those calculated values and equally

11 weighting them, we determine a PER -- a variable

12 load PER for controlled system in this case of

13 23.33 for the same pump, much lower than the 49

14 numbers we were seeing before. That's the intent.

15 Good, we've accomplished our goal.

16 And so, when we calculated this, this

17 just states how we calculated this number. It

18 will change, as Al has mentioned, based on

19 assuming a different minimum drive efficiency and

20 a different controlled motor loss curve and drive

21 loss curve. So it will change but it will not

22 change the fact that it's a much lower number than
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1 the variable load number. Yeah?

2 MR. ALASCIO: Jeff Alascio with ABB. I

3 guess just as a thought process, if you use 96

4 today and you came up with 23.33, if you just made

5 that just for fun 30 percent, how much would that

6 PER change?

7 MS. WIDDER: I will have to get back to

8 you on that.

9 (Laughter.)

10 MR. ALASCIO: The point I'm trying to

11 make is, is if you go to the extremes --

12 MS. WIDDER: Right.

13 MR. ALASCIO: And it doesn't change the

14 PER, does it really matter?

15 MS. WIDDER: Right. So that's -- and

16 that's the point I was trying to make. So it will

17 not -- it will not make this maybe 25 or 27 or,

18 you know, it will -- it will still be dramatically

19 lower than the 49 and that's the exact point I was

20 trying to make. If we do a curve versus a static

21 that's really conservative, you know, it -- what's

22 that?
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1 MR. ECKMAN: The problem is comparing it

2 with a tested result that doesn't have that in it,

3 that static effect. So that's --

4 MR. ALASCIO: That's what we're worried

5 about.

6 MR. ECKMAN: That's what you're worried

7 about and that's what we're worried about.

8 MS. WIDDER: Right.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, so that was --

10 thank you, Tom Eckman. Okay.

11 MS. WIDDER: Right. The static would

12 still need to be conservative but yeah, so but so

13 to his point, it would have to be like 30 percent

14 or something to make sure it's conservative and

15 that's not representative, as we've discussed. But

16 I do note the point that, you know, regardless of

17 what we do here we're going to capture the

18 benefits of a drive. But we want to be

19 representative and conservative.

20 Okay, and then we just ratio it to

21 determine the PEI. In this case, as we get PEIs

22 much farther from one, like 0.5-ish, you all have
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1 seen in the calculator, as opposed to near one. So

2 this was the PERs, just a summary of the PERs that

3 we observed in the previous calculations. You can

4 see we accounted for the more efficient motor and

5 we accounted dramatically for the effect of

6 controlling the system and putting it on a drive.

7 Okay, so now we're going to talk about

8 the wire-to-water test methods a little bit. This

9 is referred to as a string test in HI 14.6. It's

10 discussed a little bit. It's not in the current

11 draft of HI 40.6 although it's extremely -- most

12 of the methods are described. The pump part of

13 the methods are described. The only change that's

14 necessary for a wire-to-water test is specifying

15 the electrical measurement equipment and then

16 everything else in the test is pretty much exactly

17 the same.

18 But in this case, we would be measuring

19 the input power to the motor or the system at the

20 specific load points and using those directly. We

21 don't have to do any calculation of losses. That's

22 done for us. I didn't have -- this is just
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1 calculating -- this is showing or demonstrating

2 using some data that we had that we do want in

3 fact to be conservative with the calculated value

4 such that the calculated value results in a higher

5 PER than the tested PER slightly.

6 But you know, we'll just have to look at

7 more data to make sure that this is true for all

8 cases and specifically for the drive cases. One

9 thing that I didn't have a slide on but I do want

10 -- do want to note is the specification of the

11 electrical measurement equipment that would be

12 upstream of the pump and the drive is something we

13 would like input on.

14 We've based it on available industry

15 standards. So what's used to measure motor --

16 input power to the motor in IEEE 112(b) and then

17 there's a CSA standard for measuring drive

18 efficiency, also an AHRI standard that's under

19 development for measuring drive efficiency and

20 we've used those standards to reference what

21 electrical measurement equipment might be

22 required.
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1 In the case of a motor, it's mostly just

2 two watt meters since we're on a polyphase system,

3 two watt meter method. And then for a drive, in

4 most cases that's the same equipment can be used.

5 But it needs to be able to capture real power in

6 harmonics instead of just volts and amps, so yeah,

7 little bit more complicated.

8 That will be specified in more detail in

9 the NOPR and, you know, I mentioned the standards

10 that we're looking at to determine the appropriate

11 electrical measurement equipment. But we of

12 course welcome more specific feedback from NEMA as

13 well as the pump manufacturers that might need to

14 implement -- to have that electrical measurement

15 equipment to measure the input power accurately.

16 Okay. So moving on to the wire-to-water

17 test for a bare pump motor and controls, oh, this

18 is a little bit of specifics on -- this is what's

19 in AHRI 1210, just to provide you all with a

20 little bit of information about what's in that

21 standard.

22 They specify that the input power should
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1 be measured using instruments capable of measuring

2 current voltage and real power and then as

3 designated by this IEC standard and having

4 accuracy of plus or minus 0.2 percent of full

5 scale at the supply source frequency. So we are

6 considering referencing similar instruments in for

7 the wire-to-water test. But other than that, it

8 would reference 40.6 in terms of a method of test

9 or a protocol.

10 So you can see the request there. Are

11 there any other inputs or changes necessary to the

12 40.6 procedure besides the electrical measurement

13 instruments and where they might be located in the

14 test setup that would be needed to measure a pump

15 system in a wire-to-water manner? Yes, Greg?

16 Gary?

17 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. So

18 speaking from the perspective of the electric

19 utilities, customers pay for reactive power.

20 MS. WIDDER: Mm-hmm.

21 MR. FERNSTROM: And I think in

22 evaluating the economics of a large system, you
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1 would want to know the power factor such that you

2 could consider that in terms of evaluating the

3 utility cost savings versus the initial

4 investment.

5 MS. WIDDER: Okay. I'm going to

6 consider that recommendation. Thank you.

7 MR. FERNSTROM: So Louis suggested you

8 might just put a capacitor in to correct the power

9 factor. But where you're dealing with nonlinear

10 waveforms in electronic switching, capacitors

11 don't always work to correct it.

12 MS. WIDDER: Mm-hmm.

13 MR. FERNSTROM: Anyway, this is a

14 significant cost issue and I think it's important

15 that you all consider it.

16 MS. WIDDER: Yes.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you, Gary.

18 MS. WIDDER: Just noting that. Okay, so

19 I encourage -- this is, as Gary mentioned, not

20 technically difficult in terms of the test method

21 but getting the instruments correct is an issue

22 that we'd really like some input from
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1 manufacturers on. And so we'll hopefully welcome

2 any input later or as part of the proposal.

3 Okay, so this is just a summary slide

4 that discusses the pros and cons of the

5 calculation versus testing methods as they've been

6 presented. The calculation method, which we've

7 been treating as a default, is repeatable and less

8 burdensome but it doesn't differentiate the

9 different controls' performance and we have to

10 make assumptions about how those systems perform

11 at different loadings.

12 Because of that, the physical test

13 method could be available as an option that's

14 accurate -- more accurate and representative of

15 the performance of different types of motor

16 controls either within the type or different,

17 like, types of motors like ECMs versus induction

18 motors. It is obviously more burdensome.

19 I can delete this thing. I'm going to

20 say drive data -- drive test data is not

21 available. But I think we are all on -- we're all

22 generally it seems like in agreement that the
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1 calculation method would be available as a default

2 for all pumps and then testing would be available

3 to demonstrate the superior performance or

4 improved performance of different types of motors

5 and controls in a wire-to-water testing method as

6 an option in the test procedure.

7 One question with regard to how these

8 calculation and physical testing methods are

9 implemented is whether or not that default option

10 -- the default calculation and then the optional

11 testing method should be available for all pumps

12 or if physical testing is more appropriate only

13 for some classes of pumps, like submersible pumps

14 that are always sold with a motor. And there's

15 also a question about -- well, I'll leave that

16 question first and see if we have any input on

17 that. Yeah?

18 MR. POTTS: Yeah, Sarah, Doug Potts from

19 American Water. I just have a question about that

20 where you say differentiating with equipment at

21 full load and part load.

22 MS. WIDDER: Mm-hmm.
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1 MR. POTTS: And maybe I'm just confusing

2 things here. But I thought the only test point

3 for variable speed was at the full speed, at the

4 100 percent of the -- 100 percent speed. So what

5 do you mean there by part load?

6 MS. WIDDER: So I guess what I mean for

7 the wire-to-water test, you would be testing the

8 full system at each load point.

9 MR. POTTS: Okay.

10 MS. WIDDER: So you're differentiating

11 the performance of a given motor, for example, an

12 ECM motor both -- you're capturing both the

13 improved efficiency at full load as well as the

14 improved efficiency at part load that may be

15 better than the default loss curve or the change

16 in efficiency we've assumed.

17 MR. POTTS: So, well maybe I'm just

18 confused because what were you referring to in

19 that previous slide when you said that it's only

20 at -- for variable speed you're only testing at

21 your full speed and then you're calculating the

22 rest?
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1 MS. WIDDER: So that's for the pump

2 only, the input power to the pump.

3 MR. POTTS: Okay.

4 MS. WIDDER: And then, so there's the

5 calculation method and then an optional testing

6 method.

7 MR. POTTS: Okay.

8 MS. WIDDER: With the calculation

9 method, you test the pump per HI 40.6, determine

10 the BEP power, determine the shaft input power to

11 the pump at different flow rates using the assumed

12 system curve, find the full load motor efficiency

13 of the motor that's paired with the pump, take

14 that efficiency, apply the motor loss curve,

15 combine them together. Then you have drive

16 efficiency and a drive efficiency curve, add that

17 on and then that is your PEI.

18 So that's the calculation method, lots

19 of calculations. Then there's the wire-to-water

20 testing method where you just put the full pump

21 motor and drive on the test stand, measure the

22 electrical input power to the drive, measure the
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1 output -- hydraulic output of the pump at the

2 specific flow rates, 25, 50, 75, 100 percent of

3 BEP flow, and then you have -- you input that data

4 as opposed to the calculations. And so, in that

5 way you're capturing the actual performance of

6 that system --

7 MR. POTTS: Right.

8 MS. WIDDER: -- that might be better

9 than the loss curves we've assumed or the

10 efficiency we've assumed for the drive in

11 particular.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary Fernstrom?

13 MR. POTTS: Yeah, what --

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Doug, keep going. Doug?

15 MR. POTTS: Do you mind if I just --

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah.

17 MR. POTTS: -- follow up? How -- when

18 you're performing that test for the variable speed

19 and we're saying that we want to use a curve where

20 we're at zero flow we have a 20 percent static

21 head component --

22 MS. WIDDER: Mm-hmm.
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1 MR. POTTS: How do you control that in a

2 testing situation?

3 MS. WIDDER: You just have to.

4 MR. POTTS: This is designed --

5 MS. WIDDER: No.

6 MR. POTTS: You initially have to have a

7 test stand where at static head it's set at 20

8 percent of your -- at full head?

9 MS. WIDDER: No, because you can adjust.

10 So typically test stands are set up that they have

11 a throttling valve. So to determine the pump

12 curve, you're changing flow rate in the system

13 along the pump curve. And so, your head is

14 changing with respect to flow and then you also

15 have a drive on the front now that can reduce your

16 speed.

17 And so, you have two variables that you

18 sort of have to change simultaneously using a

19 little bit -- I mean, there's going to be a little

20 bit of hunting and pecking involved here because

21 they're not related to each other.

22 MR. POTTS: Right.
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1 MS. WIDDER: This is -- but this is

2 possible to do. We've had a test lab do it for us

3 here and it's also what's implemented for the

4 circulator test procedure in the EU. They specify

5 actually a linear system curve. And so, you're

6 reducing speed and throttling the system at the

7 same time to achieve points on this fabricated

8 system curve.

9 MR. POTTS: Following that curve, okay.

10 MS. WIDDER: Does that make sense?

11 MR. POTTS: Yeah, I think so.

12 MS. WIDDER: Okay.

13 MR. POTTS: Yeah. Thanks.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary?

15 MR. FERNSTROM: Sarah, this is Gary. So

16 one more electrical minutia issue. You referred

17 to the two watt meter method.

18 MS. WIDDER: Yeah.

19 MR. FERNSTROM: And using that

20 methodology, you measure two phases and infer

21 what's going on with the third.

22 MS. WIDDER: Yep.
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1 MR. FERNSTROM: That works well when you

2 have phase balance.

3 MS. WIDDER: Mm-hmm.

4 MR. FERNSTROM: But I can anticipate

5 this test being done in some plants where this

6 equipment is plugged into the wall in effect and

7 the factory may not have very good phase balance.

8 So I think it's important that we specify a three

9 phase wattmeter.

10 MS. WIDDER: Okay. Thank you for that.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Joanna Mauer?

12 MS. MAUER: So I think we may have

13 talked about this before but I can't remember what

14 the answer was. Are submersible pumps always

15 filled with the motor or generally filled with the

16 motor but not always?

17 MR. HANDZEL: Well, they have to have --

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Mark, your microphone

19 please.

20 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel, from Xylem.

21 They obviously have to have a motor to drive them.

22 Some of the larger sizes, which is what's covered
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1 here, we sell the pump only and our distributors

2 may pair up a motor with it at their side just

3 because, again, multiple horsepower could go on

4 the same pump end. So other times, we sell the

5 pump with the motor. So it's a combination, okay?

6 MS. MAUER: And for those of you that do

7 sell these submersible pumps, would you have

8 concerns with being required to test with the

9 motor when you are selling the pump with the

10 motor?

11 MR. HANDZEL: Well, certainly we -- Mark

12 Handzel, from Xylem, again. We performance test

13 to qualify the pump design. So we have

14 performance data already, you know, that we're

15 using to make the selections of which pump we're

16 using.

17 MS. MAUER: For the bare pump?

18 MR. HANDZEL: Mm-hmm. Well, the bare

19 pump with the motor.

20 MS. MAUER: Bare pump with the motor.

21 MR. HANDZEL: Yeah.

22 MS. MAUER: Because I think the -- I
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1 think Sarah's posing a question of whether for

2 certain pump types it may be appropriate to

3 require testing with the motor and to not have the

4 option of using a default.

5 MR. HANDZEL: Right. So but it's a --

6 and just understand too it's a certified motor so

7 that we know, you know, we've measured all the

8 performance data of that motor so we know, you

9 know, exactly what the motor input horsepower is

10 required and everything to drive the pump.

11 MS. MAUER: So I guess my question is so

12 if you're -- for submersible pumps, when you're

13 selling the pump with the motor, would you have

14 concerns with being required to test the pump and

15 motor as a combination as opposed to having the

16 option of using default values for the motor and

17 applying those default values to the bare pump

18 tested data?

19 MR. HANDZEL: I guess I'm struggling

20 with where I'm required to do it. What are you --

21 MS. WIDDER: Right, so what Joanna is

22 referring to is this question below the table, the
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1 first question here. Something we considered was

2 for some pumps that are more typically sold with

3 motors and not sold as bare pumps as often, you

4 could -- you still would use a certified

5 submersible motor and it would be, you know,

6 following the sampling plan.

7 But for those products, you wouldn't

8 test the bare pump and take the bare pump data

9 times the motor losses because we expect that the

10 -- they're always -- they're almost always going

11 to be sold in a pump plus motor configuration. But

12 if that's not worth limiting for any of the

13 equipment classes, then the answer to this

14 question is no. It's really just a question.

15 MS. WILLIAMS: So this is Alison. One

16 thing I wanted to add is I think one of the

17 reasons we asked about this was I'm not sure if

18 the compliant -- or the certified motor was -- is

19 that still in 40.6 as an option?

20 MS. WIDDER: Yeah.

21 MS. WILLIAMS: So I think that's why we

22 had put this in before was because we weren't sure
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1 certified motors were going to be an option for

2 getting bare pump performance.

3 MS. WIDDER: Mm-hmm, right.

4 MS. WILLIAMS: So if it is an option,

5 this is probably less relevant.

6 MS. WIDDER: Right.

7 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah.

8 MS. WIDDER: It's still a question.

9 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah.

10 MS. WIDDER: Yeah?

11 MS. MAUER: This is Joanna. What is --

12 what's a certified motor?

13 MS. WIDDER: A certified motor is a

14 motor that's -- it's essentially been like

15 calibrated and so instead of measuring --

16 MS. MAUER: I see.

17 MS. WIDDER: -- speed and --

18 MR. HANDZEL: Yeah, it's a calibrated

19 motor. It's a better word. It's calibrated.

20 MS. WIDDER: Yeah, a calibrated motor.

21 MS. MAUER: Oh, okay.

22 MS. WIDDER: And so instead of measuring
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1 speed and torque directly, you can measure input

2 power to the motor and because you've calibrated

3 that motor you know what's on the other side

4 because you've specified it very precisely.

5 MS. MAUER: Okay, so not -- it's

6 something that's not the motor that's sold with

7 the --

8 MS. WIDDER: No.

9 MS. MAUER: It's kind of a value that

10 all -- that's consistent across.

11 MS. WIDDER: Mm-hmm.

12 MS. MAUER: Okay.

13 MR. HUBER: It's part of the testing.

14 MS. WIDDER: Yeah, it's like a piece of

15 equipment that can be used to determine pump shaft

16 input power.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber?

18 MR. HUBER: The industry uses calibrated

19 motors in the case of any direct couple pump,

20 whether it be an inline pump or submersible or a

21 closed-coupling end-suction. You would still --

22 you would use a calibrated, what we call a
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1 calibrated motor. That's a motor that the

2 manufacturer has certified, tested, calibrated and

3 made sure that at these load points this is what

4 it gets so that we can determine that pump

5 efficiency from that.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

7 MS. WALTNER: Question, so Mark, when

8 you were talking --

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Meg Waltner.

10 MS. WALTNER: Sorry. When you were

11 speaking earlier about testing of submersible

12 pumps, were you talking about testing them with a

13 calibrated motor? So that's not necessarily the

14 sort of -- or the motor that they're sold with.

15 MR. HANDZEL: Correct, so --

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Mark Handzel.

17 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel, from Xylem.

18 So when we're creating performance data to publish

19 to customers for making selections, we create that

20 data using calibrated motors, per what Al just

21 described. Okay, but that is definitely, you

22 know, not what we'll be supplying, you know, when
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1 we sell the product to a customer.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay? Okay.

3 MS. WIDDER: Okay. So the second

4 question on here that I think I've just raised for

5 consideration is if there's changes or

6 specifications that need to be made for pumps sold

7 with motors that have dramatically different

8 sizing than is assumed for the standard case based

9 on 120 percent of load.

10 So if you have a bare pump or you're

11 calculating the PER standard, you're assuming that

12 you're sizing the motor based on rounding up 120

13 percent of shaft input power.

14 Now, the pump that would be sold with

15 the motor that we're testing is based on full

16 impeller and the question to the manufacturers is,

17 is there significant variability expected in that

18 tested model at full impeller from this 120

19 percent sizing criteria that would dramatically

20 affect the PEI for some pumps.

21 And if so, is there, you know, specific

22 changes that we would need to make so if you're,
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1 you know, plus -- if you're more than 25 percent

2 away from the assumed size, you also make -- you

3 know, you also do that to the standard case. Or

4 there could be caveats that we can do to make this

5 more complicated.

6 And the question for manufacturers that

7 we really don't have the answer to is do you

8 anticipate a wide variety of motor sizes being --

9 or a wide -- a lot of variability in the

10 difference between the pump input power at 120

11 percent and the motor size.

12 So that -- we're tying the motor size to

13 the shaft input power at 120 percent of BEP. But

14 if there's -- there are cases where for a full

15 impeller pump you might oversize it a lot more or

16 a lot less or something else, we might just want

17 to consider the implications of that. Yes, Al?

18 MR. HUBER: Normally, I say normally

19 because it's not always done, but normally you do

20 it for non-overloading power.

21 MS. WIDDER: Right.

22 MR. HUBER: SO it's throughout the
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1 curve.

2 MS. WIDDER: Mm-hmm.

3 MR. HUBER: But I don't know, the 120

4 percent seems to be reasonable with our group.

5 MS. WIDDER: Okay.

6 MR. HUBER: We don't have a problem with

7 that.

8 MS. WIDDER: Great.

9 MR. HUBER: Going back to your thing

10 with submersibles, I assume the problem with

11 submersibles is they're not regulated so you've

12 got no -- you've got no data.

13 MS. WIDDER: Mm-hmm.

14 MR. HUBER: I'm sure that submersible

15 manufacturers would like to be able to calculate

16 it just like they're calculating the rest of it or

17 else their testing burden is going to get high.

18 MS. WIDDER: Right.

19 MR. HUBER: Am I correct? Do you agree

20 with that, Greg?

21 MS. WIDDER: So I appreciate that input.

22 Yeah.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg Towsley?

2 MR. TOWSLEY: No, I agree with what Al

3 said. And I think it goes back again to the

4 formula and the 120 percent.

5 MS. WIDDER: Mm-hmm.

6 MR. TOWSLEY: And I think as you look at

7 where you choose BEP and what that is and 120

8 percent and even if for some reason -- and I just

9 tried to run some numbers -- even if you did jump

10 up the additional motor size, I still think you're

11 going to be within that flatter part of that

12 variation on efficiency.

13 MS. WIDDER: Mm-hmm.

14 MR. TOWSLEY: It may go down further

15 below 75 percent. But I can only think that can

16 happen on much larger motors where the

17 efficiency's already much higher.

18 MS. WIDDER: Right.

19 MR. TOWSLEY: And less -- less of a --

20 so I don't -- I don't think it's a problem.

21 MS. WIDDER: Okay. Good. That was --

22 that was my assumption. But you -- the
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1 manufacturers obviously know a lot more about the

2 universe of pumps. And these are really more

3 getting into the weeds questions where I think

4 we've done a good job and we're all on the same

5 page in terms of a general test procedure for

6 pumps.

7 And right now, we're trying to sort of

8 like clean up these exceptions, like these weird

9 cases that we don't know what to do with. And so,

10 I'm just trying to keep an eye out for those. When

11 we issue the new calculator, put in your pump and

12 motor data. And you know, if any questions or

13 comments arise as a result of that, that's what

14 we'll be looking for.

15 MR. BOOKMAN: Jay Sivigny?

16 MR. SIVIGNY: Jay Sivigny, Flowserve.

17 Sarah, quick question. I just want to confirm

18 that you were going to put in a separate motor

19 table for submersibles.

20 MS. WIDDER: Yes.

21 MR. SIVIGNY: Okay.

22 MS. WIDDER: Correct.
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1 MR. SIVIGNY: Okay.

2 MR. HANDZEL: And can you share that

3 with the manufacturers just so that -- because I

4 think one thing Greg -- Mark Handzel, from Xylem.

5 Just we need to dig into our monitor data little

6 bit further since, like, Grundfos and Xylem make

7 those motors.

8 MS. WIDDER: Yeah.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: So Mark asked could you

10 make sure that you provide that.

11 MS. WIDDER: Yes.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

13 MS. WIDDER: Yes, that will -- it'll be

14 in the calculator. Yeah, it'll be in the

15 calculator that it will be sent, the constant load

16 one that's sent out today, so. Okay, so now we

17 are at the review of applying the test data to the

18 metric. We've already had significant discussion

19 of the metric. So this will just be really a

20 review of the equations. This is --

21 MR. BROOKMAN: I think it's time to go

22 to lunch.
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1 MS. WIDDER: Okay, let's go to lunch.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah, yeah. Good job

3 presenting.

4 (Applause.)

5 (WHEREUPON, a recess was taken.)

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Let me welcome Charlie

7 Cappellino. Glad you could join us.

8 MR. CAPPELLINO: Thank you, Doug.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: This morning we spent the

10 bulk of the morning talking about test procedure.

11 Sarah did a lot of presentation. Many of the

12 slides, much of the content was familiar and then

13 some of it was new. So we did a lot of

14 clarification on what was there and how it would

15 be applied and the like.

16 I promised that when we returned from

17 lunch that we would return to Gary's questions

18 about circulator pumps and whether we should use

19 the July meeting, that being one issue, as an

20 opportunity for this working group to advance on

21 the issue of circulators and other, I guess,

22 dedicated pool pumps; those were the two. And so
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1 I thought I would open that up now.

2 Have you heard anything from anyone

3 about a DOE follow-on effort or anything such as

4 that?

5 Lucas Adin?

6 MR. ADIN: I'm waiting for some feedback

7 on that but I think it's safe to say we wouldn't

8 be able to provide immediate analytical support.

9 That's --

10 MR. BROOKMAN: As like in immediate

11 being?

12 MR. ADIN: Not in July.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Not in July. Okay. So

14 if we were to meet in July then the analytic team

15 would be bound up tight doing --

16 MR. ADIN: Other things.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Other things.

18 (Laughter.)

19 MR. ADIN: Including work in support of

20 this rule.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah.

22 MR. ADIN: Yeah, unfortunately their
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1 work doesn't stop after today.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah, so. Okay. Okay.

3 (Laughter.)

4 MR. ADIN: No comment.

5 (Laughter.)

6 MR. BROOKMAN: So I would just note that

7 when we established the scope for the rule making

8 my memory is and it is reflected in a meeting

9 summary that Alison and I have prepared which you

10 all should be receiving -- have you sent it yet?

11 MS. WILLIAMS: I have --

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Backing up a step. We

13 have prepared a short document. It is about two

14 pages which is a record of all the votes that were

15 taken and all the results that are listed. And we

16 are sending that as soon as Jack gets it out to

17 you now so you can look at it this evening or

18 tomorrow morning and then we can go through it

19 tomorrow. The reason I am retracing this is

20 because in determining the scope one of the things

21 you all agreed to in that Joint Proposal was that

22 we would cue circulators and dedicated pool pumps
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1 for some subsequent action by DOE and hopefully

2 soon and there was an ambitious follow-on date

3 given the capacity of DOE to deliver.

4 And so that is why Gary this morning

5 raised the issue of well maybe there is something

6 we could do with circulators. So Gary it looks

7 like you are ready to speak.

8 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. I just

9 wanted to make the, excuse me, observation

10 reflecting on the work of this group that DOE

11 wasn't really quite ready to supply immediate

12 analytical work for us when we started either

13 because we have sort of been doing analysis on the

14 fly as we've gone along. So I think there is some

15 benefit that can come from a discussion and work

16 on circulators even before the analytical team is

17 prepared to fully participate.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: And how would you see the

19 thrust of that conversation? Do you have the

20 shape in your mind?

21 MR. FERNSTROM: Well the shape in my

22 mind goes back to the presentation that we made on
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1 the relative efficiency of PM ECM motor powered

2 circulators versus induction motor powered

3 circulators and the need to sort of settle in on

4 what a test procedure might look like because

5 there are a lot of different views on how that

6 might be done.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Uh-huh. So it seems to

8 me there are a whole array of options here. We

9 have these dates established or I should say we

10 have then at least penciled on our calendars. I

11 am not going to -- Greg Towsley you go next.

12 MR. TOWLSEY: Give you time to think.

13 Greg Towsley.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: No, I knew what I didn't

15 want to say.

16 MR. TOWSLEY: Question for Gary. From

17 the testing that you did on circulators is it

18 possible to take some of the information you

19 gathered and the methodology you tested them and

20 then put them into the metric that we are looking

21 at now? The reason I am asking is Hydraulic

22 Institute Summer Meeting is next week and we have
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1 a circulator committee meeting and one of the

2 topics is test methods as well as potential

3 directions on the metric and communications. And

4 Steve Thompson co-chairs that along with Mark. And

5 some feedback could be interesting for us for that

6 meeting.

7 MR. FERNSTROM: Well we can certainly

8 share what we did such that you can discuss it at

9 your meeting. What we did was more broad based to

10 broadly characterize the performance of this

11 equipment such that the results we got could be

12 translated into what you would find if you used

13 different specific test procedures. I don't know

14 that I could say how well the tests we ran

15 correlate with what this group is doing. I do

16 know that the testing we did was what we normally

17 think of conventional pump testing where we

18 characterized the head and flow or hydraulic power

19 as a function of electrical power input.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber?

21 MR. HUBER: First of all we don't really

22 think testing is going to be a problem. And we
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1 really think that probably an adaption of 40.6

2 will probably suit without any problem.

3 MR. FERNSTROM: Well I am fine --

4 MR. HUBER: One of the things that we

5 wanted -- that Tom and I discussed previously is

6 that if the NGOs would come up with a proposal of

7 scope and levels and what they're thinking, what

8 they want accomplished and how to do that and

9 present it to us then we will have our HI

10 committee review it and then get back with you.

11 But what we think is that we can kind of short

12 circuit this process in a way. And we have a

13 meeting in October and then another meeting in

14 February. We think maybe it is possible to have

15 an agreement basically between HI and the NGOs

16 probably March sometime and then we could come to

17 DOE and you'd only have to take a short amount of

18 time to get this done.

19 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. So I

20 can't speak for the others but my objective has

21 always been simple and that is to come up with

22 some sort of a regulation that would get us PM ECM
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1 motor performance levels and the circulator pumps

2 at some point in the future that would be

3 consistent with the industry's need to redesign

4 and recover costs and so on.

5 MR. HUBER: Yeah, I think that is what

6 we are talking about too. So that is what I think

7 might suit better; you'd take up less analytical

8 time by DOE; take up less meeting time here; and

9 then we would have a general agreement basically

10 before we ever sat down in here and just basically

11 convey it to these guys. And one of the things

12 that we did discuss is that we'd set the standard

13 so that it would move the market into the but not

14 so high as to make it onerous for those guys who

15 are going to have to try to get in there. So that

16 is what we are thinking Gary. And Tom and I

17 discussed this before lunch so --

18 MR. FERNSTROM: So I think we are in

19 agreement in principle. The question is do we

20 need to reconvene in July. Would that provide any

21 benefit toward this goal? I don't know the

22 answer. I simply raised the question.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: So I am looking at that

2 side of the table there. Tom go ahead.

3 MR. ECKMAN: Yeah, I think if we can

4 characterize the proposal that we would make clean

5 enough so you guys have enough of a framework to

6 talk about so that you know what our end game is.

7 I think Gary has laid it out. We would like to

8 get an end game that has PM ECM motors as the

9 baseline product basically. And whatever that cut

10 off would have to be in terms of pump efficiency,

11 however the metric would be designed is how we

12 would have to finesse it given the current score

13 sheet, metric we've got. That is --

14 MR. HUBER: It is basically a wire to

15 water test?

16 MR. ECKMAN: Yes. So it is wire to

17 water.

18 MR. HUBER: It is basically not a pump

19 efficiency.

20 MR. ECKMAN: Right. It is a system --

21 MR. HUBER: It is basically a unit

22 efficiency.
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1 MR. ECKMAN: Right. So it's --

2 MR. HUBER: For lack of a better term.

3 MR. ECKMAN: Yeah so I think that

4 probably in general terms is where we want to go.

5 I don't know whether we need to spend three days

6 talking about it.

7 MR. HUBER: No I don't really think we

8 need to either. I think if you just put it to us

9 in writing and get it clarified so that your

10 entire group agrees what you are going to do, what

11 you want to see happen and get it to us. We will

12 take it up in the October meeting, get back to

13 you. Maybe we've got questions or maybe we've got

14 a counterproposal or something. And we can finish

15 it up in our February meeting. And then arrange

16 some date after that with Lucas --

17 MR. ECKMAN: Send something to DOE.

18 MR. HUBER: Send something to DOE and

19 they can decide what they want to do. Call a

20 meeting or whatever they want.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: It also --

22 MR. ECKMAN: We haven't talked about it
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1 as a caucus specifically about what the deal would

2 be but the broad terms are pretty much -- we

3 talked about that before in terms of --

4 MR. BROOKMAN: As a supplement. I would

5 just -- am recalling that one of the reasons that

6 circulators seemed to be difficult for this

7 working group to take up was because of lack of

8 data among other things. So maybe there could

9 also be that the manufacturers could do a data

10 call like they did through HI and get some

11 additional data because ultimately I think the

12 energy efficiency advocacy is going to want to see

13 some --

14 MR. HANDZEL: I mean, Doug, Mark Handzel

15 from Xylem, the HI circulator committee has

16 gathered a lot of data.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

18 MR. HANDZEL: Okay. So and I think we

19 actually shared much of that with the DOE and the

20 consultants as part of the vote to exclude it from

21 this rulemaking.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Ah-ha.
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1 MR. HANDZEL: So there is a lot of data

2 that exists.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Good. Good.

4 MR. HUBER: So the only difficulty and

5 it is not a difficulty but this is relatively new

6 technology and it is just being developed by the

7 pump people. The motor people are still working

8 on it. There are horsepower limitations right now

9 and other limitations. But I think if you guys

10 would give us the scope and give us what it is you

11 want to see it look like and then we will have our

12 committee work on it. I think we can get back to

13 you. So you have our confirmation as HI that

14 we'll undertake it and at the latest back to you

15 after October meeting and then the latest after

16 the February meeting hopefully we can get together

17 here or wherever. Maybe we won't have to get

18 together. I don't know.

19 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel. So Doug I

20 think what you were thinking of was that much of

21 what we said about circulators is that many of the

22 manufacturers or almost all of us make our own
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1 motors and they are non NEMA design motors.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah.

3 MR. HANDZEL: You know so that was kind

4 of the data -- the data wasn't quite there was

5 because of the non-NEMA design motors.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Good, that is good

7 clarification. And I would simply note as someone

8 who has observed this process a lot that DOE would

9 regardless of what you all negotiate have to

10 fulfill its responsibilities and they are many. So

11 at some point -- at midpoints, at certain key

12 junctures we ought to make sure that Lucas or

13 somebody is aware of what is going on so that he

14 is not surprised; so the Department of Energy is

15 not surprised about what emerges.

16 MR. HUBER: Certainly I think when they

17 send us a proposal they ought to copy DOE. And

18 then when we send back our response we'll copy DOE

19 and they can stay in the loop until we get closer

20 where we get it down and however the DOE wants to

21 handle it after that we certainly are willing to

22 participate.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Louis?

2 MR. STARR: Yeah. Actually I was just

3 going to say I think previously there wasn't a

4 test metric really for the circulators was part of

5 the problem and I think it got developed a little

6 bit more with 40.6 and so maybe now that that can

7 be used --

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah.

9 MR. STARR: -- maybe as a basis for it.

10 So that is probably with time it improved.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Meg.

12 MS. WALTNER: Meg Waltner. I was going

13 to point out something along those lines and ask a

14 question to DOE and the consultants whether it

15 would make sense to work on the test method for

16 circulators as part of the main test method

17 rulemaking if there are a lot of similarities in

18 how you would test.

19 MR. HANDZEL: Go ahead Al.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Al.

21 MR. HUBER: I don't think it would be

22 any different.
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1 MR. HANDZEL: So you --

2 MS. WALTNER: It will be the same test

3 method you are saying?

4 MS. WIDDER: It would be the wire to

5 water test --

6 MR. HANDZEL: On the pump side.

7 MR HUBER: The wire to water test method

8 it will be very very close.

9 MS. WALTNER: So we wouldn't need to do

10 a separate test method rulemaking for circulators?

11 MR. HUBER: No.

12 MS. WALTNER: That is sort of already --

13 MS. WIDDER: The only thing that would

14 be -- I mean I wouldn't go that far. I think it

15 makes sense to focus on the test procedure for the

16 scope of pumps that we have been discussing so far

17 right now. I think I agree -- or we agree with

18 the pump manufacturers that minimal, if any,

19 changes would be necessary. But I mean we haven't

20 really done a full analysis. Things that you

21 might want to consider are are the test points

22 appropriate for circulators. I know in the EU
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1 they have many more and they have a different

2 system curve that they apply. So we do want to do

3 a little bit of thinking about it. I think in

4 general the method of test that is described in

5 40.6 is appropriate but there might be some tweaks

6 that might make sense because we are sort of on a

7 fast track for the test procedure that we just

8 talked about to consider that very soon but not

9 immediately today.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas.

11 MR. ADIN: I think Sarah captured

12 basically what I was going to say. We could do it

13 now but there are reasons to wait until later to

14 address the details specific to circulators.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Gary Fernstrom?

16 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay. This is Gary. It

17 sounds like the consensus is we can proceed

18 informally on circulators. We have a pretty good

19 understanding of the common goal and we can have a

20 productive discussion. That leaves pool pumps. I

21 don't think we really even have the pool pump

22 industry at the table here. There is an existing
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1 test procedure and methodology that Energy Star

2 uses. I don't know whether that would want to be

3 adopted by DOE. Certainly alternatives would need

4 to be considered. So I think we need to think

5 about how we might want to proceed with pool pumps

6 because we are not as far along as we are with

7 circulators.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Bob?

9 MR. BARBOUR: Bob Barbour with TACO. I

10 still think we need to keep in mind that there is

11 a difference between a European delta P approach

12 and a domestic delta T approach that has been used

13 with circulators. There are definitely U.S.

14 manufacturers who do supply a delta P

15 approach style of circulator. We are certainly, I

16 can speak for TACO's prospective, that we

17 definitely recognize the need for energy

18 improvement or efficiency improvement when it

19 comes to circulators. And we have some things on

20 the table that will help us better align ourselves

21 I think with the ultimate goal of this group. I

22 don't think we necessarily have enough information
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1 yet as a group as far as operating characteristics

2 or the associated costs that will be applied to

3 the industry to convert to ECM circulators in

4 order to as Tom indicated make it necessarily a

5 baseline. I certainly could see where there would

6 be an opportunity where they may be a higher level

7 of energy efficiency recognized with some ECM

8 style circulators. But I am not so sure that we

9 would necessarily want as a group to just

10 eliminate all other circulators besides ECM.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: What else might we say

12 about pool pumps at this point? I think we have a

13 good solution pathway forward on circulators as

14 they are -- Charlie Cappellino -- Gary, go ahead,

15 Gary Fernstrom.

16 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. I just

17 wanted to respond to Bob. I think there are two

18 parts to the circulator question. One is the

19 circulator pump independent of the type of control

20 that is used whether it is pressure based or

21 temperature based. I think Bob has a good point

22 that the U.S. market is different than the
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1 European market. And certainly there are control

2 system related savings that can be had from these

3 products.

4 We are really interested in developing a

5 standard that goes to the pump and motor kind of

6 irrespective of the control system that is being

7 used and would hope that we can develop a

8 methodology that values the savings emanating from

9 the control system. So we might rate that and use

10 that as a basis of potential rebates or voluntary

11 incentive programs. So the hope would be we can

12 move to PM ECM motors as a standard but leave the

13 benefit of the control systems for voluntary

14 programs having developed a test procedure that

15 properly values the savings associated with them.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Charlie

17 Cappellino?

18 MR. CAPPELLINO: Charlie Cappellino,

19 ITT. So as we transition to discussions around

20 pool pumps and such I know somebody mentioned that

21 we need to get some other parties involved. So I

22 didn't know if you wanted to talk about the timing
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1 of that.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Well I just think, we're

3 on this subject and I felt compelled to raise it

4 again. It was an important part of the accepted

5 joint proposal. So if there is a way for us to

6 address it at least some pathway then I thought we

7 should try and do it. I didn't know are the pool

8 pump manufacturers, are they members of HI?

9 MR. HUBER: Some are.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Some are. Al Huber says,

11 yes, some are. Okay. Gary Fernstrom.

12 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. So I've

13 tried to raise this issue through my contacts with

14 the pool industry which is mainly the Association

15 of Pool and Spa Professionals which has as part of

16 its constituency all of the small swimming pool

17 pump manufacturers and I believe the primary

18 swimming pool pump motor manufacturers as well.

19 And frankly I haven't got a lot of traction from

20 them because they don't see anything official

21 happening. So it seems to me that some

22 announcement or initiation from DOE would be a
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1 good way to get the attention and involvement of

2 that industry. And I don't know what DOE can or

3 can't do in that regard. But that is sort of a

4 fundamental difference between pursuing those

5 products and the circulator products.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: And that is a useful bit

7 of information I mean one that I don't think any

8 of us had. Al Huber? I thought you had a -- no,

9 you have no comment here? Tom Eckman?

10 MR. ECKMAN: Yeah. Taking on the pool

11 pump issue I wonder and this is another question

12 for DOE is would a notice of determination of

13 coverage or something like that initiate that

14 because it is not in this scope and it is a pump

15 but it is a different kind of pump than we've talk

16 about here. So would DOE need to do something

17 like that?

18 MR. ADIN: As far as I am aware we would

19 not need to do that.

20 MR. ECKMAN: Okay.

21 MR. ADIN: Because pump is such a broad

22 term in EPCA. I mean it is apparently --
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: And you all have defined

2 it very broadly as well.

3 MR. ADIN: Well regardless of what this

4 group defines the word pump is in EPCA so it is

5 very broad --

6 MR. ECKMAN: Right.

7 MR. ADIN: -- and it is inclusive of all

8 these other things that --

9 MR. ECKMAN: So it is in coverage now.

10 It is basically sending out a notice that you

11 might undertake a rulemaking along those lines.

12 MR. ADIN: Right.

13 MR. ECKMAN: So that might get the

14 attention.

15 MR. ADIN: Yeah and there are different

16 ways we could probably think about doing that

17 whether it is this group makes a recommendation, a

18 concrete recommendation to the ASRAC for a follow19 on proceeding and the ASRAC agrees to that DOE can

20 make some kind of announcement about that.

21 MR. ECKMAN: Say something.

22 MR. ADIN: Right. So we can think about
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1 the best way to make that publicly known in a more

2 visible way. But --

3 MR. ECKMAN: So it may be a separate

4 line item in the term sheet; circulators being one

5 line item and a process; and pool pumps being a

6 different line item and a process for that because

7 it seems to me we have more people in the room on

8 circulators already to talk to than we do on the

9 pool pumps. And so we've already had engagement

10 on that with HI on the circulators and with nobody

11 on pool pumps.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Let me just note that the

13 summary that Jack is sending you about the

14 agreements does not include anything that we just

15 covered in the last half an hour because we just

16 discussed it. Right. So the purpose of sending

17 this out is so that tomorrow we can look at it and

18 make clarifications and all that other kind of

19 stuff. So we will have to keep our eye on the

20 ball and make it so that -- did someone else --

21 did I see a hand? No.

22 Do you want to -- I was unclear whether
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1 this group wants to actually approve the term

2 sheet or whether you wish to approve all of the

3 content that goes into the term sheet? Lucas

4 Adin?

5 MR. ADIN: I was just going to point out

6 to the extent I am aware it really doesn't make

7 much material difference which way it is done. I

8 think it is important for the group to look at all

9 the items that are in there and make sure the

10 language is reflective of the intent.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: All of the content.

12 MR. ADIN: That's the operational

13 content of the term sheet. The rest of it is

14 perambulatory language.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

16 MR. ADIN: And explaining what it is for

17 but these are the things that the group is

18 recommending --

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah.

20 MR. ADIN: -- to ASRAC, so --

21 MR. BROOKMAN: I am not splitting hairs

22 here, maybe not, Meg?
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1 MS. WALTNER: Could you clarify the

2 difference between those two options? Are you

3 saying voting on each item in the term sheet

4 versus voting on the whole term sheet? Or what, I

5 didn't understand the difference.

6 MR. ADIN: No I think we were just

7 clarifying whether everyone is comfortable with

8 just looking at the items that we are going to

9 list in there as recommendations as opposed to

10 waiting for us to actually format it into a term

11 sheet and have everyone approve it in that way. I

12 don't think it makes any difference personally.

13 But if everyone wants to see the final term sheet

14 before they are willing to agree to what it says

15 then we can do that but --

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Wait until you see the

17 summary which I think is an accurate and fair

18 representation of all the work we have done here

19 including strong statements about intent.

20 MS. WALTNER: So are you saying the

21 language we have been sent is the language that is

22 going to be formatted into the final term sheet
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1 but with maybe some preamble or are you saying

2 this language is going to be translated into a

3 term sheet that is based on the intent of this

4 language but the specifics might change?

5 MR. ADIN: I am saying the only

6 difference between what we just sent you and what

7 would be in the term sheet is preamble language.

8 And we would just list it in terms of like

9 recommendation one, recommendation two, structure

10 it a little more but the words would be what this

11 group put forth, yeah.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Additional comments here?

13 MR. HUBER: From our side I don't think

14 we have a problem if this is what you are going to

15 have except for a preamble I can't see an issue

16 here.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Then that was

18 good. That was useful.

19 I guess we are ready then to return to

20 the test procedure presentation, Sarah Widder?

21 MR. HUBER: Excuse me as a point of

22 clarification we don't vote on the test procedure
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1 but we vote on the metric? We don't vote on the

2 metric either?

3 MS. WIDDER: We could.

4 MR. ADIN: I suppose you could -- yeah

5 you could vote to make a recommendation on the

6 metric since the standards as expressed in terms

7 of the metric.

8 MR. HUBER: But we cannot on the test

9 procedures; is that correct?

10 MR. ADIN: No, we view the test

11 procedures being outside the scope of negotiation.

12 MR. HUBER: DOE --

13 MS. WIDDER: Correct me if I am wrong. I

14 think the working group can decide to vote on

15 anything they would like but the scope that ASRAC

16 will consider is only the scope that was

17 authorized. I mean it is nuance.

18 MR. ADIN: In a sense that is true. I

19 suppose the --

20 MS. WIDDER: Right.

21 MR. ADIN: -- this group could vote on

22 anything.
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1 MR. HUBER: So we could recommend --

2 MR. ADIN: Completely unrelated items.

3 (Laughter.)

4 MR. HUBER: We could recommend or we

5 could propose to recommend to ASRAC to adopt the

6 40.6 as part of the test procedure or the basis of

7 the test procedure be 40.6?

8 MR. ADIN: I am not necessarily aware of

9 any specific reason you couldn't do that but --

10 MR. HUBER: Well --

11 MR. ADIN: -- I don't know what the

12 limitation would mean.

13 MR. HUBER: I know from our side we

14 would like to.

15 MR. ADIN: Okay.

16 MS. WIDDER: So my understanding and

17 this is just trying to recollect what Betsy said

18 when we had this discussion with the lawyer here

19 and so I don't want to speak out of turn but I

20 think it was that any of those type of

21 recommendations that the working group wanted,

22 voted or just elected to include in the preamble
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1 or as some other part of the term sheet, I don't

2 know if it would go on the term sheet or a

3 separate document, but wanted to be forwarded to

4 ASRAC could be as recommendations but they are not

5 under the same -- this working group is sort of

6 authorized by ASRAC to make recommendations in the

7 form of a term sheet regarding standards. And

8 then there is understanding that ASRAC will take

9 those into consideration with a certain amount of

10 weight that they are recommendations from this

11 group that is formally recognized.

12 The other recommendations about the test

13 procedure are just recommendations.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Or other matters.

15 MS. WIDDER: What?

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Or other matters.

17 MS. WIDDER: Or other matters --

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.

19 MS. WIDDER: -- that aren't formally

20 part of the ASRAC scope are welcome to be included

21 but aren't part of the formal consideration or

22 authorized scope. That was my understanding.
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1 MR. ADIN: I don't personally remember

2 exactly --

3 MS. WIDDER: Okay.

4 MR. ADIN: -- what Betsy said about that

5 but that sounds consistent with the way I

6 understood it. So yeah I didn't necessarily mean

7 to say you can't vote on things like that. It is

8 just a question of whether the ASRAC is committed

9 to consider those things.

10 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson. HI has

11 put a great deal of work effort into that product

12 as you are aware along with your consultants so we

13 would like to see that voted on by this group and

14 recommend its adoption as the primary test.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: I was wondering if the

16 energy efficiency caucus members are familiar

17 enough with the test that they would wish to act

18 on such a thing at this point. Joanna?

19 MS. MAUER: I am not sure I have a

20 problem with that. I am also not sure it adds a

21 lot of value. I think you can be pretty confident

22 that DOE is going to use 40.6 as a basis. Well I
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1 can't speak for DOE obviously but if they find

2 that there needs to be some kind of tweaks I think

3 they are going to propose those tweaks regardless

4 of whether we vote on something related to 40.6 or

5 not.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: And then there will be

7 the normal comment period --

8 MS. MAUER: Right.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: -- that follows that

10 notice of proposed rulemaking.

11 MS. MAUER: So I mean I certainly

12 understand why you would like some certainty

13 regarding the test procedure but I think we can be

14 pretty confident that what they will propose will

15 be very similar.

16 MR. HUBER: Since we are confident then

17 I don't see why we can't vote for it.

18 (Laughter.)

19 MR. BROOKMAN: I didn't --

20 MR. HUBER: We took up a whole meeting

21 reviewing it. You know we brought in our expert.

22 We made the effort to review it. We did all that
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1 work. You know I think we'd like to recommend it

2 to ASRAC as part of the work product of this

3 group.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary Fernstrom?

5 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. So Al,

6 speaking for my constituency, I don't have any

7 difficulty supporting your recommendation for a

8 test procedure.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: I will leave it to the

10 other major caucus to decide whether they've

11 considered it enough, whether they are comfortable

12 with it, all that sort of thing. That is a

13 discussion further down the road; not at this

14 moment it seems.

15 MR. ECKMAN: Yeah I think we could have

16 a reasonably short deliberate discussion about

17 that in caucus and --

18 MR. BROOKMAN: We can take it up

19 tomorrow even.

20 MR. ECKMAN: Sure.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

22 MR. ECKMAN: We can figure this out.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: And by the way since we

2 are all here before people start heading to

3 anything else I was thinking we would start at

4 8:00 a.m. tomorrow and leave no later than 3:00,

5 maybe even we get done earlier than that but that

6 was the general plan when we set this up. Okay.

7 MR. HUBER: Are we going to review

8 anything tomorrow on the term sheet? Or what is

9 the agenda for tomorrow; do you know?

10 MR. ADIN: We don't necessarily have to.

11 I mean if the group decides it is comfortable with

12 the content of what we sent you.

13 MR. HUBER: Will you have it ready

14 tomorrow?

15 MR. ADIN: We could probably -- well the

16 --

17 MS. WILLIAMS: We could do it today if -

18 -

19 MR. ADIN: Right. We could format what

20 we send you into a term sheet today.

21 MR. HUBER: Okay. Then we can review it

22 tomorrow --
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1 MR. ADIN: And send it out.

2 MR. HUBER: --and vote on it.

3 MR. ADIN: Sure.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So are we ready to

5 proceed now? I think so. Okay. So, Sarah, thank

6 you.

7 MS. WIDDER: Yes. So, there is not a

8 lot else to talk about regarding the test

9 procedure. I have somes slide we've all seen

10 several times before just reminding us of the

11 architecture or the structure of the metric and

12 particularly the minimally compliant pump; how

13 that is set. So that should just be review and

14 was going to then feed into the review of other

15 items that have been agreed upon by the working

16 group. Unless there are specific questions or

17 other things outside of this general metric

18 construction that the working group wanted to

19 discuss today, that was what I was thinking of

20 doing.

21 MR. HANDZEL: Sarah?

22 MS. WIDDER: Yeah.
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1 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel. So a couple

2 of things we did kind of dance around on yesterday

3 were sample size.

4 MS. WIDEER: Uh-huh.

5 MR. HANDZEL: And also just the

6 structure of the database.

7 MS. WIDDER: Yeah.

8 MR. HANDZEL: So just those are two

9 things that I think we still kind of had on our

10 minds.

11 MS. WIDDER: Sure.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: That's on my list.

13 MS. WIDDER: Those are good suggestions.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.

15 MS. WIDDER: So we can definitely bring

16 that up.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. My list is close

18 on the test procedure; get as much clarity as

19 possible. Close on the metric; get any additional

20 input thoughts on the metric. I am still unclear

21 whether it is beneficial to vote on the metric or

22 not. And then also the issue of the data points
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1 that Joanna had raised and Greg had raised earlier

2 today; some discussion on that; seeing where that

3 might go to provide some sort of guidance,

4 recommendation to DOE. I think that would be

5 helpful to DOE. And then there is the summary of

6 the agreements report for review whether we get to

7 that today or tomorrow. And that is my list.

8 So let's proceed.

9 MS. WIDDER: Okay. So this will just be

10 a review of the metric and then as Doug mentioned

11 the working group could decide to vote on it or

12 not.

13 So this is the general nomenclature that

14 we had agreed to previously was that the pump

15 energy rating for a controlled or variable load

16 would describe the weighted average electrical

17 input power to the pump including a motor or drive

18 if present over a specified load profile. And the

19 weights were to be 110% or the load points were to

20 be 110%, 100% and 75% of the best efficiency point

21 flow at nominal speed for uncontrolled pumps for

22 the constant load profile; and then 25, 50, 75,
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1 100% of BEP flow for the controlled or variable

2 load PER. And then the weights were to be equally

3 weighted among those three or four points. And

4 the then pump energy index would be actually the

5 standard that is set. So the pump -- yes.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber.

7 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson. Do you

8 intend for there to be two PEI's; one constant

9 load and one variable load? Or are you trying to

10 combine the two into one?

11 MS. WIDDER: Yeah that was confusing

12 before. We are intending to have two. So let me

13 clarify that right now.

14 MR. HUBER: That is okay. Thank you.

15 MS. WIDDER: Yep.

16 MR. HUBER: Can you change that max to

17 standard?

18 MS. WIDDER: Yep. I am doing that right

19 now also.

20 (Laughter.)

21 MS. WIDDER: Oops. Oops. Yeah that is

22 what you want. There we go. Okay. And then this
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1 would be -- while you all are just watching me

2 edit this but okay. So there are the two;

3 constant load and variable load; different

4 equations for the constant load and variable load

5 applications. And in subsequent presentation of

6 slides or maybe the NOPR or as we discussed the

7 calculators, we will just separate them

8 completely. So I thought that was a good

9 suggestion and we will do that moving forward.

10 So for the constant load case which is

11 the uncontrolled pump we mentioned that the load

12 points of 75, 100 and 110 percent in equal

13 weighting. We discussed earlier that the motor

14 performance would be that of the minimally

15 compliant motor or the motor that is sold with

16 that pump. And we discussed the nuances of that

17 earlier. This is just a reminder of what that

18 equation looks like with the weighted average

19 input power on top and then the bottom here; there

20 is that pump hydraulic output power that we

21 discussed earlier on the pump curve which is used

22 to describe the minimally compliant pump on the
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1 denominator also equally weighted at the same load

2 points. This all should be familiar. The same

3 losses are applied in both cases and I will change

4 the max to standards, PER max.

5 For the variable load case we have four

6 load points: 25, 50, 75, 100. Other than that the

7 equation looks very similar. And then the one

8 thing that is worth noting is that this

9 denominator is an uncontrolled case. And we are

10 all familiar with that. That is why we get such a

11 dramatic decrease in the PEI for a controlled

12 pump. And I am going to change this to will

13 account for drive efficiency because we discussed

14 at length earlier today how we are going to

15 account for drive efficiency with a minimum drive

16 efficiency assumed and an efficiency curve of some

17 sort. And we'll do that.

18 This is how we determine the minimally

19 compliant pump. We essentially determine the pump

20 efficiency based on this equation that is the same

21 equation use in the EU. When we publish the NOPR

22 we will translate this to English units. That
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1 hasn't been super high on my priority list, so I

2 haven't done that yet. But I will in version 12

3 of the calculator.

4 And then we have the efficiency of that

5 minimally compliant pump plugged into the PER

6 standard equally weighted and we would scale the

7 hydraulic power by that pump efficiency and then

8 also translate the pump efficiency that describes

9 the pump -- this equation describes the pump

10 efficiency at BEP and then we scale that pump

11 efficiency or translate that pump efficiency to

12 110% and 75% of BEP flow by multiplying it by

13 these .985 and .95 factors. And that is

14 consistent with what is done in the EU as well to

15 set the MEI. So that is the minimally compliant

16 pump.

17 That is really all that I had to present

18 about the metric.

19 As you all saw by this slide I had some

20 other things about labeling but we can really

21 address that at a later time.

22 If we wanted to talk about --
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: If we address labeling at

2 a later time; when would that be?

3 MS. WIDDER: Whenever in the NOPR.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber?

5 MR. HUBER: Al Huber. Do you have that

6 information available?

7 MS. WIDDER: I mean I can show you the

8 slides that I have now.

9 MR. HUBER: Well that might be helpful

10 for us.

11 MS. WIDDER: Okay. Sure.

12 MR. HUBER: Because we haven't seen it.

13 MS. WIDDER: So this is something that

14 we had discussed at one point in time. I don't

15 know that we have any real specific proposals

16 regarding labeling. This is a summary of some

17 discussions that I had heard at earlier working

18 group meetings. And it is something for the

19 working group to continue to consider.

20 Lucas wants to jump in.

21 MR. ADIN: Well I just want to -- Sarah

22 is right we don't have any specific proposals. We
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1 talked about some different things in this group

2 and it is safe to say that DOE still needs to

3 think about it a little bit. But we are

4 interested in what you all think. And we want to

5 know as much as we can learn about what you think

6 is most valuable to have on a label or what

7 content it should have.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Mark Handzel.

9 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel from Xylem. I

10 mean Lucas I think obviously we're pretty much

11 rookies at this too. So I mean I guess if you

12 could share with us what you do on other products.

13 You know that is the thing we want to understand

14 what the DOE's expectations are. We certainly all

15 put labels on our products but they've never had

16 any sort of certification on them before or any

17 sort of labeling that was government mandated. So

18 --

19 MR. ADIN: Right.

20 MR. HANDZEL: -- it is new to us

21 completely.

22 MR. ADIN: Well just to be clear we
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1 don't actually have to require a label on the

2 product. There are only a few products where we

3 do. Motors is one of them. The motor nameplate

4 is required to have the efficiency on it. But you

5 don't necessarily have to require that now. Some

6 consumer products, mostly large appliances or

7 "white goods," have the yellow label that is

8 regulated by the federal trade commission and that

9 is a separate statute of authority.

10 MR. HANDZEL: Maybe I could just tell

11 you what we typically put on our labels is

12 obviously our company's name.

13 MR. ADIN: Uh-huh.

14 MR. HANDZEL: What the product was rated

15 to do. If the customer told us a flow and head we

16 put that on the nameplate. And we put serial

17 number information so they can come back and trace

18 it back to us for help to identify parts.

19 MR. ADIN: Right.

20 MR. HANDZEL: So it is all really just

21 identifying us as the manufacturer.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Does the serial number
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1 have the model number embedded?

2 MR. HANDZEL: Well some of us do, some

3 of us it doesn't. It is not embedded in my number

4 but I have the information on the nameplate as

5 well.

6 MR. ADIN: So with respect to energy

7 efficiency information I mean understand that

8 based upon the certification system that DOE uses

9 now assuming we do the same thing for pumps and I

10 can't think of any reason why we would do it

11 differently, all that information would be in

12 DOE's database. So someone could look up that

13 model based on what is on the nameplate and figure

14 out what its rating is. So --

15 MR. HUBER: So you are not going to

16 require us to put that on the label?

17 MR. ADIN: Not by default, no.

18 MR. HUBER: That is not what you think?

19 MR. ADIN: I mean if this group decided

20 absolutely it has to be on the nameplate or the

21 label then we could consider that but --

22 MR. HANDZEL: So like for example
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1 between Al and I he puts efficiency on his

2 nameplate; I don't. So I mean we could do it but

3 I mean again we are rating the product not each

4 individual version that we sell so I mean again we

5 need to make sure --

6 MR. ADIN: Well let me clarify one point

7 about that. To the extent energy efficiency or

8 energy consumption information is put on the label

9 or nameplate once we've established a test method

10 it has to be consistent with what comes out of

11 that required DOE test method. So that is a

12 statutory requirement. We don't really have a

13 choice about that. I mean you at least have to

14 have an energy rating that is consistent with what

15 the test procedure shows.

16 MR. HUBER: So what you are telling us

17 is if we have been putting efficiency on there

18 then we either have got to stop doing it or we've

19 got to put the PEI --

20 MR. HANDZEL: You have to put --

21 MR. ADIN: You at least have to have the

22 PEI on there. And if you have other measures of
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1 energy efficiency or use they have to --

2 MR. HUBER: Well I am glad we started

3 through this because we didn't understand that and

4 I think probably we will need to caucus sometime

5 and talk about it. Maybe we can bring it back

6 tomorrow as to whether we think it ought to or

7 ought not to be.

8 MR. ADIN: Uh-huh. Okay.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary Fernstrom?

10 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. Well if

11 we want to have any sort of voluntary program to

12 reward products that exceed the minimum

13 requirements we need to have the energy efficiency

14 marked in a recognizable and permanent way on the

15 product. So I'd just like to say is as you think

16 about whether you want to do this or not it is

17 important to us to have that information

18 permanently marked on the product.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

20 MS. WIDDER: And just to follow up on

21 Gary's thing. I think that is a really important

22 point Gary. One of the things that is considered
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1 and actually has been a reason that labeling has

2 not been pursued for other commercial equipment is

3 that there is obviously burden associated with

4 labeling products, the material cost of the label

5 and all these things. But we have to weigh that

6 against the benefit and how consumers typically

7 acquire energy use or efficiency information about

8 that product. So like for commercial equipment --

9 other commercial equipment there has been

10 determinations that typically specifiers look in

11 the catalogue or the product literature and they

12 don't really select the unit off the shelf. And

13 so permanently identifying the efficiency

14 information on the unit is less valuable in those

15 cases. And so that is just something that we

16 consider.

17 MR. ECKMAN: Except that like many

18 people that hand out money we do measurement

19 verification that --

20 MS. WIDDER: Uh-huh.

21 MR. ECKMAN: -- what we bought is

22 actually what was delivered. So --
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1 MS. WIDDER: Right.

2 MR. ECKMAN: -- the M&V activity relies

3 on that label --

4 MS. WIDDER: Uh-huh.

5 MR. ECKMAN -- or some crosswalk between

6 what is on the label and a certified dataset that

7 says that was indeed the product --

8 MS. WIDDER: Uh-huh.

9 MR. ECKMAN: -- and we paid for an

10 efficient product that was actually installed.

11 MS. WIDDER: Yeah.

12 MR. ECKMAN: Because there are many

13 times when we have paid for things that were

14 installed and that isn't good.

15 MS. WIDDER: Uh-huh.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Rob Boteler?

17 MR. BOTELER: Rob Boteler. I would

18 agree with you that a lot of products, motors

19 included, get purchased and installed and nobody

20 ever looks at it. But at the same time there is a

21 verification step there that when it is necessary

22 we have the nominal efficiency on the nameplate
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1 and it does help us with our utility programs.

2 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. And so that is

3 definitely a benefit that is also considered not

4 only the specification but the verification.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis.

6 MR. STARR: And so the other thing about

7 it is the PEI can actually -- some of these things

8 are actually more proscriptive requirements so you

9 could have a PEI such that you really have to have

10 a VFD in order to get a rebate and so just by

11 having the PEI with a number on there it indicates

12 that it is a package and that it is all together

13 and it is all in there and so you can easily check

14 to see that it is there. So the specification

15 will say package equipment with a PEI less than

16 45. And so you just look and see that it is on

17 there when you are out either the engineer or the

18 person doing the rebate program.

19 MS. WIDDER: Uh-huh.

20 MR. STARR: So I mean I think maybe the

21 label just could be something with the PEI with

22 the number on there and it would be nice that if
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1 it had some way of going back to the DOE database

2 that you could get more information which the

3 model number should do that I would think.

4 MS. WIDDER: Right.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Mark Handzel.

6 MR. HANDZEL: I think good discussion.

7 I agree with Al, we'd like to talk about it

8 further.

9 MS. WIDDER: Uh-huh.

10 MR. HANDZEL: Yes because I think we

11 have to -- obviously we are coming up with a PEI

12 by model number, we may be selling pumps with

13 trimmed impellers so it has to be framed up as

14 whether it is a nominal PEI or what it is because

15 it may not be exactly what the impeller trim

16 reflects as a PEI or I mean these are things we

17 all just have to think through.

18 MS. WIDDER: Right. So with regard to

19 the impeller trim thing it would be nominal in

20 that case because we are certifying equipment at

21 full impeller only.

22 MR. HANDZEL: Exactly. So yes, so we
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1 just need to come up with the terminology and

2 agree that that is the way we are going to phrase

3 it.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

5 MS. WIDDER: Yeah.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: How many slides do you

7 have on labeling?

8 MR. STARR: One last question.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.

10 MR. STARR: The more I think about it it

11 actually needs to be done by the serial number

12 because the model number is not indicative of how

13 it is sold. In other words you could have a pump

14 that has a certain model number but if you sold it

15 with a motor too it would still have the same

16 model number but you are given pump model XYZ, it

17 doesn't change if you sell it with a motor

18 necessarily. So the serial number would be more

19 indicative of that particular motor and how it was

20 sold.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Bob Barbour?

22 MR. BARBOUR: Bob Barbour with TACO.
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1 Many manufacturers don't even supply a serial

2 number on their pumps. We don't.

3 MR. HUBER: We do.

4 MR. HANDZEL: We don't supply it on

5 circulators. But we supply it on everything else.

6 MR. BARBOUR: We don't though.

7 MR. HANDZEL: Not even on your bigger

8 pumps?

9 MR. BARBOUR: No.

10 MR. HANDZEL: Well, guess you are going

11 to have to change, Bob.

12 (Laughter.)

13 MR. HUBER: Now you see why we've got to

14 caucus.

15 MS. WIDDER: Right.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: So how many slides do we

17 have on labeling?

18 MS. WIDDER: Very few other especially

19 substantive slides. The other slides review a

20 little bit what we wanted to accomplish with the

21 metric. I'll just go through them quickly.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Because we've already
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1 demonstrated that the brief review is useful. So

2 let's go through them briefly.

3 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. And I think I at

4 least definitely recognize that this is something

5 we won't reach consensus on today. And we will

6 still need feedback on and so I am glad we brought

7 it up. I am glad it is something worth

8 considering. But it doesn't need to go in the

9 term sheet necessarily; the labeling provisions.

10 Although we could talk more about it tomorrow or

11 whenever.

12 MR. HANDZEL: And Sarah I am sorry to

13 interrupt, Mark Handzel, but I mean our preference

14 is that we would like these things in the term

15 sheet just because we want to make it vividly

16 clear to DOE that this is what we can easily --

17 MS. WIDDER: Okay.

18 MR. HANDZEL: -- comply with.

19 MS. WIDDER: Okay.

20 MR. HANDZEL: And --

21 MR. HUBER: And it is what we want.

22 MR. HANDZEL: Yeah it is what we want
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1 because obviously changes that get done over the

2 next six months after we stop working are going to

3 be of key concern to us because they are going to

4 differ -- yeah.

5 MS. WIDDER: Yeah.

6 MR. HUBER: We want it in there.

7 MS. WIDDER: Okay. So let's put on the

8 agenda for tomorrow revisiting labeling.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

10 MS. WIDDER: Okay.

11 MR. HUBER: I think we've got -- excuse

12 me, Al Huber, Patterson. We are going to revisit

13 tomorrow the test standard. We are going to

14 revisit tomorrow the metric. I mean it is part of

15 what we are recommending also.

16 MS. WIDDER: Uh-huh.

17 MR. HUBER: And vote on it unless

18 somebody wants to do it today. And labeling.

19 MS. WIDDER: Uh-huh.

20 MR. HUBER: Is there anything else?

21 MR. BROOKMAN: There is the data point

22 discussion that Joanna raised; Greg was talking
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1 about earlier this morning.

2 MS. WIDDER: Oh, certification reports,

3 what is in the certification --

4 MR. HUBER: -- a product data sheet that

5 you wanted.

6 MS. WIDDER: -- database.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Definition of what?

8 UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Definition --

9 MR. ECKMAN: That is really what is

10 going in the database though, that is the question

11 what is the database going to look like.

12 MS. WIDDER: Right.

13 MR. ECKMAN: Date point as well.

14 MR. HUBER: Yeah, that is something

15 we've got to --

16 MS. WIDDER: What does the data

17 describe?

18 MR. HUBER: And we --

19 MR. BROOKMAN: So you have more slides?

20 MS. WIDDER: Yeah, I have a few more

21 slides on the labeling things. I don't have a lot

22 of slides on the sort of certification report
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1 elements. But we could make slides about that. I

2 could take notes if we want to discuss that next.

3 With regards to labeling the rest of the

4 slides as I mentioned weren't really that

5 substantive so just to talk through this slide.

6 This was a summary of what I heard us discuss a

7 few meetings ago which was that maybe it would be

8 desirable to have the PEI constant load and

9 variable load on nominal on each pump regardless

10 of the configuration in which it is sold. So that

11 consumers or utility programs could observe what

12 the drive -- Al you are giving me funny faces.

13 This is not a proposal. This is just a summary of

14 the discussion I heard. So any changes are

15 welcomed. And the standard in this case is

16 probably less negotiable. This would -- a pump

17 that was sold with a motor and control would --

18 the standard it would use would be the variable

19 load but what is in the label or what is

20 meaningful in terms of putting on a label; the

21 last time we discussed it, it sounded like putting

22 both on a pump to reflect if you were to give this
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1 pump to a distributor and they were to put a

2 control on later it would reflect at least the

3 minimum of what that control system -- what type

4 of performance you could expect from the

5 controlled system. That was the conversation I

6 heard. So that is just what is captured here.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: I heard that conversation

8 also.

9 MS. WIDDER: Okay. Great. I am not

10 making it up.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber.

12 MR. HUBER: One of the things that we

13 are concerned about is we don't know how it is

14 going to be handled after it leaves us.

15 MS. WIDDER: Right.

16 MR. HUBER: Okay. So we -- it is our

17 preference right now unless I get guidance from

18 anybody else, I'm looking at -- that when we ship

19 a bare pump or we ship a pump with a motor we put

20 on that -- if we are required to put on the label

21 --

22 MS. WIDDER: Uh-huh.
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1 MR. HUBER: -- which we haven't

2 determined yet.

3 MS. WIDDER: Nope.

4 MR. HUBER: We would only want to put on

5 PEI CL.

6 MS. WIDDER: Okay.

7 MR. HANDZEL: Nominal PEI

8 MR. HUBER: If we -- the nominal PEI CL

9 and if we are going to ship it with a control we

10 want to put on the PEI VL. I guess it would be

11 nominal also.

12 MS. WIDDER: Uh-huh. Yep. Same as

13 standard. Okay.

14 MR. HUBER: Yeah because I think it --

15 we don't know how it is going to be utilized after

16 it leaves us.

17 MS. WIDDER: Uh-huh.

18 MR. HUBER: I mean it is not that we

19 disagree and try to get people to use control

20 systems but we have to be concerned. We put it

21 on there and somebody puts another drive on there

22 that may not be what we tested and it may operate
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1 differently and somebody is going to come back to

2 us yeah, but you said this is what it was.

3 MS. WIDDER: Uh-huh.

4 MR. HUBER: In other words if I get a

5 motor and a control that is not compatible for

6 some reason or it doesn't perform the same as

7 somebody else's control that I tested then I've

8 got an issue. Okay. We don't want to open

9 ourselves up for an issue here. Does that make

10 sense?

11 MS. WIDDER: Okay. I hear that and I'm

12 recoding it.

13 Okay. So --

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's finish the slides

15 and then at that point we will be ready for our

16 break and you can put your heads together briefly

17 at that point.

18 Keep going.

19 MS. WIDDER: Okay. So the other slides

20 that I had related to label were just when I was

21 thinking about what we might want to put on the

22 label. It seemed relevant to me to recall what we
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1 wanted to achieve with the metric. So this is a

2 slide that we've seen before. There were five

3 elements that we determined as a group that might

4 be beneficial characteristics to have as a metric

5 that it is objectively measureable; and represents

6 the performance of the equipment; that it

7 differentiates performance among pump models and

8 configuration;, communicates information about the

9 pump performance to the consumer, although maybe

10 not all the information; and it can compared the

11 efficiency of a given pump model to a minimum

12 standard. So the reason I thought that was

13 important is particularly number four it seems

14 like might be best accomplished by the label as

15 opposed to the standard metric as we've described

16 it.

17 So I tried to capture that in a little

18 table here. So there are the five metric goals on

19 the left. So we want both the standard and the

20 label to be objectively measureable obviously. And

21 then I just describe some of the characteristics

22 of the standard and the label with regard to the
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1 goals of the metric. I think the key one this is

2 what I was trying to describe earlier that I heard

3 the conversation around but certainly there is

4 reason as the pump manufacturers have said you

5 don't have control over essentially what drive it

6 is paired with and so perhaps you just want to

7 have the label representative of the standard

8 performance. So that is really all the slides I

9 have here.

10 I had a couple of potential impact

11 slides that I just really made up because I wanted

12 to get this group thinking about how this label

13 would impact the market and what would be

14 important information to communicate in what

15 format. And if a physical label is the best

16 format or if product literature is more

17 appropriate.

18 So like I said at the beginning I don't

19 think that these are to be interpreted as

20 proposals. These are just sort of opportunities

21 to start discussing. Please do not think of these

22 as set in stone.
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1 Yes. Doug. Okay. Great.

2 So that is really all I had on metric.

3 The next thing that we could do Doug

4 unless you have an idea is we could either review

5 the items on the term sheet, we could review

6 metric and vote on it, or we could discuss the

7 certification database. I think those were all on

8 the list. Or we could take a break first.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: I think we should take a

10 break first. We are just about due for a break.

11 But I thought I heard from one member of the

12 manufacturers' caucus that you would like to take

13 a vote on the metric. I thought I -- did I hear

14 that? I think I did.

15 MR. HANDZEL: We want to make a

16 recommendation in the term sheet that it be --

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. Right.

18 So and I didn't know whether -- I mean

19 we've spent a lot of time on the metric and it

20 seems like we've arrived at something that is as I

21 review folks around the room they seem pretty

22 comfortable with what is there. So let's take a
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1 break now. Let's take a 15 minute break. It is

2 now -- it is only quarter after so that means we

3 will return at 2:30 and we'll consider the metric

4 and decide what to do with it.

5 (WHEREUPON, a recess was taken.)

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Here we go.

7 Before I forget -- oh, I'll tell you later.

8 So we had a very productive discussion

9 before we went to break, and I know that at least

10 one of the caucuses put their heads together. I

11 hope that was productive as well.

12 I think where we left it was that we

13 were going to return to the test method that, I

14 heard prior to leaving for the break, that at

15 least one caucus really wanted to make sure that

16 some of the test method stuff, particularly 40.6,

17 that that came out as a recommendation from the

18 Working Group.

19 Sarah, during the break, has diligently

20 made small edits to a few of the slides. And so

21 that's where we're going to start, to review that

22 as content that may be the basis for a vote by the
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1 Working Group.

2 And I don't know whether your caucus

3 have had a chance to -- okay, the Energy

4 Efficiency Advocates' caucus has also had a chance

5 to talk about this.

6 So let's proceed. Sarah.

7 MS. WIDDER: Okay. So the slide that I

8 made -- well, I made two, but this is the first

9 one. And it is basically just a summary of what I

10 thought that I heard we may be -- or the group may

11 be wishing to make recommendations about at this

12 point, or at least feel comfortable making

13 recommendations about at this point.

14 The first thing is that the bare pump

15 test procedure should be based on HI 40.6. Or

16 maybe to revise that, actually now that I'm saying

17 it out loud, is that the pump -- just pump test

18 procedure should be based on HI 40.6.

19 And then the other two bullets here deal

20 with the metric. The pump energy rating -- this

21 is basically just cut and paste from the metric

22 slide that we saw earlier -- pump energy rating is
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1 equally weighted average electrical input power to

2 pump measured or calculated at the driver input or

3 when present controls input over a specified load

4 profile. There's the equation. We've described

5 what each of those terms mean.

6 And then the pump energy index, PEI CL

7 and VL for uncontrolled and controlled loads

8 respectively would be the PER CL and VL for a

9 given pump model over the PER CL for a minimally

10 compliant pump PER standard. Yeah.

11 MR. HUBER: We would like to change the

12 word "base" to "in accordance with."

13 MR. BROOKMAN: It strikes me that that's

14 a kind of a discrete element, and that, if we're

15 going to vote, we should vote on that.

16 MS. WIDDER: Just --

17 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Just on that

18 wording change?

19 MR. BROOKMAN: No, on the -- on what is

20 now --

21 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: The bullet.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: On the bullet.
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1 (Off the record)

2 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: You want to vote

3 on each bullet point?

4 MR. BROOKMAN: I think that -- yes,

5 because I'm not sure -- I --

6 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: I don't care.

7 MS. WIDDER: We can -- all as a whole

8 40.6 in metric separately.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's do them separately.

10 MS. WIDDER: Okay.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. Joanna.

12 MS. MAUER: I personally would be more

13 comfortable voting on the original language that

14 Sarah had on the screen, but.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas Adin.

16 MR. ADIN: I don't know that we have

17 strong views on it. But I mean, understand --

18 like I think it was pointed out earlier, this will

19 still need to go through a separate rule making

20 process for the test procedure.

21 So it's possible there are things that

22 DOE could propose that they're not necessarily
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1 inconsistent with HI 40.6, might be in addition to

2 or something of that nature, so.

3 MR. HUBER: We don't disagree with that.

4 MR. ADIN: Okay.

5 MR. HUBER: We understand you may do

6 that, but this is what we would like to recommend

7 to the -- if we're going to make our

8 recommendations, we're recommending that it be in

9 accordance with 40.6. I mean, that's what --

10 that's what we spent all this time working on. So

11 --

12 MR. ADIN: Okay.

13 MR. HUBER: -- I don't see any problem

14 with that. We're making a recommendation. We

15 realize you can change it. But if you change it,

16 then we have -- we have the opportunity to object

17 to that.

18 MR. ADIN: That's true. It will go

19 through the rule making process. There will be a

20 public comment period.

21 MR. HUBER: We understand that, too.

22 MR. ADIN: Right.
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1 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: That's kind of

2 what we're aligning for.

3 MR. HUBER: They have -- they have the

4 same -- same privilege.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: I wonder about that --

6 this may be even, since the test procedure is not

7 a part of this delegated scope for this Working

8 Group, this is a recommendation -- I wonder if the

9 ground rules would apply, the ground rules we set

10 for ourselves, if they would apply in the case of

11 a recommendation which is out of scope.

12 MR. HUBER: That's the way we decided to

13 operate. So I assume that they would also apply.

14 I mean, I know I'm not, you know.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. Okay. I'm --

16 regardless, yeah. Tom Eckman.

17 MR. ECKMAN: Yeah. Just I think the

18 issue is -- you know, we agree you are being

19 substantial -- substantially consistent with 40.6.

20 I don't think there's any heartburn on our side

21 about what we're really intending there.

22 It's a question of whether there's -- if
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1 they find something, they have to change later,

2 that that is a tweak, whatever that is, but

3 doesn't -- I mean, we think substantially is

4 compliant with 40.6, we're in agreement with that.

5 MR. HUBER: That's why we would like to

6 put "in accordance with."

7 MR. ECKMAN: "In accordance with," yeah.

8 MR. HUBER: Because I think -- I mean,

9 that's what we understand, that's what we would

10 like to see, and --

11 (Off the record)

12 MR. HUBER: -- since they have the right

13 to do whatever they please.

14 MR. ECKMAN: Right, whatever doesn't

15 matter.

16 MR. HUBER: All we're doing is making a

17 recommendation anyway. So it's our

18 recommendation, at least from -- from this caucus,

19 is that it be in accordance with 40.6.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Meg Waltner. No.

21 Okay. Lucas, you want to.

22 MR. ADIN: I was just going to say
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1 because, you know, like we've said, this is going

2 to go through the rule making process. I don't

3 think this language is a problem for our purposes.

4 (Off the record)

5 MR. ADIN: To the extent I'm aware.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis Starr.

7 MR. STARR: I guess maybe, Sarah, is

8 pretty much everything up there in accordance with

9 40.6?

10 MS. WIDDER: Everything up there --

11 MR. STARR: Well --

12 (Off the record)

13 MR. STARR: -- not only the first

14 bullet, but then it basically implies everything

15 else. Right?

16 MS. WIDDER: Well, so 40.6 is only a

17 pump method of test. It describes how the pump is

18 put on a stand, what the measurement equipment is,

19 what the load points are, how BEP is determined,

20 and how pump shaft input power and efficiency are

21 determined.

22 And that's really the end of it. That's
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1 the extent of it.

2 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: You feel like

3 it's in accordance with 40.6, what we just

4 covered?

5 MS. WIDDER: Yes.

6 MR. ECKMAN: Well, for example, and Gary

7 raised the issue of, you know, testing all three

8 phases.

9 MS. WIDDER: And that's not in 40.6. So

10 that would be in addition to.

11 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: The pump test.

12 MR. ECKMAN: Yeah.

13 MS. WIDDER: Right. Which is why I had

14 bare pump test --

15 MR. ECKMAN: Okay.

16 MS. WIDDER: -- initially because it

17 really is just a test for a bare pump. And then

18 anything else would be in addition to that.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: It seems like -- I'm

20 looking over here this side of the room -- that

21 most folks seem to be comfortable with this

22 current wording.
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1 MS. WIDDER: How about, what if we add

2 to clear up, "Pump test procedures should be in

3 accordance with HI 40.6 for determining bare pump

4 performance." Do we feel comfortable with that?

5 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: That's fine.

6 MS. WIDDER: Okay. Because then it's

7 more clear that the whole test procedure is not in

8 accordance with something that has a limited

9 scope.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. Okay.

11 MS. WIDDER: Okay.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: You okay. Yeah.

13 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Yeah.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Then I'm going to

15 ask for a vote of the committee. How many do we

16 have -- 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13,

17 14 -- 14 members.

18 Okay. So you see the proposal there,

19 the proposed recommendation from the Working Group

20 to ASRAC up there, and it reads -- Sarah just read

21 it -- "Pump test procedures should be in

22 accordance with HI 40.6 for determining the bare
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1 pump performance." This would go, if we approve

2 it, into the term sheet.

3 All those in favor of accepting this as

4 a recommendation to ASRAC, please signify by

5 raising your hands. As I cast my eyes around the

6 room, every single -- one person has not voted

7 "yes." So that is 13 "yes" votes and one --

8 MS. MAUER: I'd like to abstain.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: And one "abstention."

10 Thank you very much. That's another

11 consensus of the Working Group.

12 (Off the record)

13 MS. WIDDER: Okay. The next thing that

14 we want to vote on --

15 (Off the record)

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve -- Steve Rosenstock

17 sent a message again to me this morning saying he

18 couldn't make it, and he wanted his vote to be

19 counted as an "abstention."

20 MS. WIDDER: So that's two

21 "abstentions."

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Two.
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1 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: So we don't have

2 any members on the webinar?

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, no one on the

4 webinar. Yeah.

5 MS. WIDDER: Okay.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: So that's two

7 "abstentions."

8 MS. WIDDER: Okay. So the next elements

9 that I captured that we wanted to make a

10 recommendation about were a summary of the metric

11 nomenclature and general architecture.

12 So the -- the PER that describes the

13 pump performance for a -- for a constant load or

14 variable load, constant load for the uncontrolled

15 case and variable load for the controlled case.

16 The PER would be the equally weighted

17 average input power to the pump measured or

18 calculated. I already read this, so I'm not going

19 to re-read it.

20 And I also think that -- and we could

21 include this actually on this slide if desired --

22 but we could capture also in the term sheet that
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1 this in general captures the description of the

2 metric, but probably we also mean this to

3 incorporate the previous slides which have the

4 full equations as well as how the PER standard is

5 determined. Of course, that's included in this

6 summary here.

7 And then the pump energy index would be

8 the PER constant load or variable load for a

9 uncontrolled or controlled pump respectively over

10 the PER standard which is the PER constant load

11 for a minimally compliant pump serving the same

12 hydraulic load.

13 MR. ECKMAN: Do you want to add that?

14 MS. WIDDER: Sure.

15 MR. ECKMAN: Doing the same (inaudible)

16 so we're clear.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: I'd like to make a small

18 -- small correction to what I said earlier because

19 Lucas just asked me. And in fact, that it would

20 be 13 "yes" votes, two "abstentions," and one

21 "absent." That would account for the entire

22 committee. So sorry for the correction.
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1 Yes, please.

2 MS. WIDDER: Yeah.

3 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Before you vote,

4 I got a question.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah.

6 MR. ALASCIO: So it's Jeff Alascio from

7 ABB.

8 What if you can't get the data for 25,

9 50, 75, and 100 at BEP for your controls?

10 MS. WIDDER: There shouldn't be any data

11 requirements for determining the PEI variable load

12 for the PER variable load in the calculation --

13 actually, in general. There shouldn't be any data

14 requirements.

15 So for the calculation method, you would

16 apply 40.6 to determine the BEP pump input power,

17 shaft input power, and apply the controlled motor

18 losses which, you know, we're going to work on

19 exactly what those coefficients are, but the motor

20 efficiency and the controlled motor losses, and

21 then apply the system curve to determine how that

22 power is reduced at reduced speed.
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1 And then also we'll incorporate the

2 drive efficiency, an assumed drive efficiency and

3 a default efficiency curve for that controlled

4 performance.

5 So there'll just be one sort of benefit

6 that's assigned to all controls in the

7 calculation. All controlled pumps in the

8 calculation case. And then there's the wire to

9 water test as the alternative option at the same

10 load points where it's measured.

11 And so you don't really need any data

12 except for you need measurement equipment in that

13 case.

14 MR. ALASCIO: So how do you -- how do

15 you get your curve?

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Jeff asked: How do you

17 get your curve?

18 MS. WIDDER: The drive efficiency curve?

19 MR. ALASCIO: Correct.

20 MS. WIDDER: Well, that's something that

21 we're still going to have to work on. We're going

22 to reach out to drive manufacturers and NEMA and
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1 as many individuals that have data as we can find

2 to try to describe a curve that's as descriptive

3 of the worst performing drives that are available

4 so that we can ensure that it's conservative as

5 we've discussed and potentially even apply some

6 sort of bias or factor that would provide us an

7 additional level of safety that -- that it's a

8 conservative estimate.

9 However, I will -- I will point out that

10 we're not really necessarily voting on that in

11 this proposal. This proposal is just describing

12 that we would like to describe the performance of

13 a controlled pump as the input power to the drive

14 equally weighted at 25, 50, 75, and 100 percent of

15 BEP flow over the standard.

16 We're not voting today or making

17 recommendations, at least right here, in terms of

18 how that input power to the drive is determined.

19 Although, we did discuss that previously, we're

20 not voting on it right now.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Doug Potts.

22 MR. POTTS: Doug Potts. Yeah, Sarah, I
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1 just have a question. For clarification on the

2 last paragraph, minimally compliant pump --

3 MR. BROOKMAN: I'm sorry.

4 MR. POTTS: -- minimally compliant pump

5 PER standard. That's basically a pump that would

6 meet the PER 25. Is that kind of the same thing,

7 since that's what we decide on, is that -- is that

8 what we're saying?

9 MS. WIDDER: Did you want to answer?

10 MR. ADIN: Right. It's the PER

11 calculated for the minimally compliant pump based

12 on pump efficiency with the minimally compliant --

13 minimally DOE compliant motor for a pump with a

14 motor.

15 MS. WIDDER: And so it would meet the

16 PER 25.

17 MR. ADIN: Right.

18 MR. POTTS: Yeah. All right.

19 MS. WIDDER: Just barely.

20 MR. POTTS: So like if we had set it at

21 PER 40, then PER standard would be a pump that

22 meets PER 40, for example.
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1 MS. WIDDER: Yeah.

2 MR. POTTS: Yeah, okay. Thanks.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: All right. Louis, you

4 had a question? No. No. Okay.

5 Yes, Charlie Cappelino.

6 MR. CAPPELINO: Charlie Cappelino, ITT.

7 Maybe you said this earlier, Sarah, but up here

8 where you have "PER CL slash VL."

9 MS. WIDDER: Do you want to make those

10 separate?

11 MR. CAPPELINO: Yeah, I know that raised

12 a question in the last meeting. People were

13 confused over the CL slash VL.

14 MS. WIDDER: Yeah, and I separated it

15 below. So I'll separate it above here.

16 MR. CAPPELINO: Just for clarification -

17 -

18 MS. WIDDER: Yep.

19 MR. CAPPELINO: -- down the road.

20 MS. WIDDER: I thought about that. I

21 didn't separate it above because actually the

22 equation's identical but it does provide clarity
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1 that they're separate quantities and not a ratio

2 or anything. Yeah.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis Starr.

4 MR. STARR: Yeah, so actually, I did

5 have a question. It's about kind of a follow-up

6 to the drive question he had.

7 So the pump guys do have software that

8 they use themselves to estimate those losses. And

9 so I got the impression earlier they were going to

10 go back and chitchat amongst themselves and kind

11 of come back with some numbers for Sarah. Is that

12 kind of where --

13 MS. WIDDER: To describe the drive

14 efficiency curves?

15 MR. STARR: Well, that and motors

16 together I think.

17 (Off the record)

18 MR. HANDZEL: So this is Mark Handzel

19 from Xylem.

20 So we use partial load data on the motor

21 efficiency not on the drive. The drive, we use

22 the nominal full load efficiency because that's
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1 all that's really available. Okay.

2 MS. WIDDER: Yeah, partial load --

3 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: And again --

4 MS. WIDDER: -- drive efficiency data is

5 difficult.

6 MR. HANDZEL: Well, I was just going to

7 say -- and again, it's a rough estimated cost on

8 what you're going to save on electricity. Cost is

9 all we're trying to provide. So it's a general

10 estimate. It's not, you know --

11 MR. STARR: No point (inaudible).

12 MR. HANDZEL: Right. Right. It's not,

13 you know, anything that's a specific rating for a

14 product. It's just a way to give a customer an

15 estimate if they want one.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg Case.

17 MR. CASE: Greg Case, Hydraulic

18 Institute. And, Louis, we did provide some data

19 to Sarah. There is not a lot out there. I've

20 gotten one manufacturer to provide me data.

21 I've gotten several studies from

22 different universities basically that have done
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1 this work, but there does not seem to -- and

2 everything I provided, I just now confirmed with

3 Sarah, it's for the shape of the curve. It

4 definitely doesn't have specific targeted data

5 points, so.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Al Huber.

7 MR. HUBER: I believe, if I'm not

8 mistaken, there is some information on the DOE

9 website.

10 MR. CASE: Right. I talked to Sarah

11 about that earlier. She --

12 MR. HUBER: And it does describe some

13 efficiencies of partial load. So --

14 MS. WIDDER: It does. And I think that

15 --

16 MR. HUBER: -- they do have information.

17 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. I think we have as

18 much as we're going to try and find everything we

19 can.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: I lost track. Have you -

21 -

22 MS. WIDDER: So I think let's -- I think
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1 that's an all-important discussion regarding how

2 we come up with the input power to the drive in

3 the case of a controlled system.

4 But let's return to the general desire

5 to describe the energy use of controlled and

6 uncontrolled pumps using the PER and PEI

7 nomenclature and equations that were described on

8 this slide and in previous slides.

9 And I think --

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah, you think --

11 MS. WIDDER: -- I think we're ready --

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah.

13 MS. WIDDER: Yeah.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: -- to vote on the second

15 bullet.

16 MS. WIDDER: Oh, I think we can do them

17 both together.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Because they --

19 MS. WIDDER: PER and PEI.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: -- they're linked.

21 MS. WIDDER: They go together.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: They're linked, yeah.
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1 Are we ready to do this? Yes. So the

2 recommendation that the Working Group would offer

3 to ASRAC as a part of its term sheet is what you

4 see up there on the screen -- the pump energy

5 rating, the PER CL and VL, and pump energy index,

6 PEI CL and VL as listed.

7 All those in favor of accepting these

8 recommendations and sending them to ASRAC, please

9 signify by raising your hands.

10 So scanning around the room, everybody

11 here present agrees with that as a recommendation.

12 And I'm going to count Steve Rosenstock as being

13 an abstention and Howard Richardson or his

14 delegate as being absent.

15 Okay. So we should pause now and

16 applaud.

17 (Applause)

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Well done. I hate to see

19 this group stop. We're getting really good at

20 this stuff. We really are. We are really doing -

21 - getting really good at this.

22 MR. FERNSTROM: Doug, this is Gary. Did
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1 Steve actually abstain or is he just not here?

2 MR. BROOKMAN: He's not here and he sent

3 a message that wherein he asked that his vote be

4 counted as an abstention. And maybe though, since

5 he's absent, he should be counted as "absent."

6 Maybe that's splitting hairs since we don't need

7 the vote.

8 MR. FERNSTROM: Well, if he sent the

9 note, I think our ground rules stipulated that

10 people could vote even if they're not here as long

11 as they're committee members. So I think his vote

12 ought to be counted the way he voted.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: I didn't remember that

14 specific, but that's how I count it. Okay.

15 Okay. So that -- those -- that -- those

16 three recommendations will be a part of the term

17 sheet.

18 And what else should -- you want to take

19 a peek at the draft term sheet at this point?

20 MR. HUBER: Do we want to go back to

21 labeling? We did -- we did caucus on that issue.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Well, okay, let's go back
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1 to labeling. Sure.

2 MR. HUBER: What we -- in our caucus

3 what we, since most of us label anyway -- I mean,

4 that's what we do. We're talking about nameplate.

5 Our thought is that we put the nominal PEI CL or

6 VL on the label, on our nameplate label.

7 And that's what they're doing in Europe,

8 by the way, they're doing an MEI. So we're sure

9 that our marketing people, if they've got one

10 that's better than 25, they're gonna want to put

11 it on there.

12 And so we -- we're -- but one of the

13 things we want to look at or one of the things

14 that we -- if we don't manufacture it then -- or

15 provide it, then we'll not label it.

16 In other words, if we're ownership in a

17 bare pump, we'll put a PEI CL. If we're shipping

18 a bare pump and a motor, we'll put a PEI CL. If

19 we're shipping the whole unit, we'll put a PEI VL.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Uh-huh.

21 MR. HUBER: They show both. I don't

22 know.
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1 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: You show both?

2 MR. HUBER: Yeah, we would show both at

3 that point.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Because you couldn't tell

5 whether that would arrive intact or be in the

6 field intact or?

7 MR. HUBER: Well, we don't know. We

8 don't -- we really have no control over -- we

9 really have no control over what somebody puts on

10 it. So if -- if we're not putting it on it, we're

11 saying we probably don't want to label it. I

12 mean, legally we don't want to be responsible for

13 it.

14 For instance, somebody's gonna want --

15 somebody may run into a situation where -- and Jay

16 brought this up -- that the spec requires it has

17 to be a PEI 50 and we label it a VL of something

18 less than that and then the distributor goes out

19 and finds a control and he does it and it's

20 actually 50, then he's either got to change the

21 nameplate or he's got to do something anyway.

22 Something's got to happen, something's got to
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1 change.

2 So we just don't want to be responsible.

3 We don't want to label it 50 because that's what

4 the guy says he's gonna do and then he gets it out

5 in the field and it doesn't meet that, then it's

6 coming back to us because we're the ones that

7 labeled it.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah.

9 MR. HUBER: So that's -- that's one of

10 our concerns.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah, Meg Waltner.

12 MS. WALTNER: Question -- I have a

13 question, Al. What other information is currently

14 on the nameplate label?

15 MR. HUBER: It varies by manufacturer.

16 We put speed, we put model number, we put -- we

17 put impeller diameter, we put -- we put

18 efficiency, a design, whatever -- the head and

19 flow. So there's a lot of information on a

20 nameplate.

21 This would just be added to it and it

22 would say, in this case, like they did at -- in
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1 Europe they put "MEI" and then give the number.

2 Because we're sure our marketing people are not

3 going to just put "MEI 25." If they got a 50,

4 they're going to put it. They're going to want it

5 on there.

6 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: The PL you mean

7 or PEI?

8 MR. HUBER: I mean, a PEI CL. They're

9 going to want it on there for marketing purposes.

10 But we really don't think we want to put it on

11 there. You know, we're not -- we're not sure but

12 we really think legally we better be careful about

13 labeling something that we're not providing.

14 MS. WALTNER: Right. And I guess my

15 question for my utility friends is, you know, what

16 else would be useful on the label besides PEI. And

17 it sounds like maybe some of these things are

18 already often included, but.

19 (Off the record)

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Tom Eckman.

21 MR. ECKMAN: I think the most important

22 thing is a way to get back to the -- what the
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1 listing with the other data we're looking at so

2 there's a crosswalk --

3 MR. HUBER: Yeah.

4 MR. ECKMAN: -- whether it's the model

5 number or serial number, something that takes us

6 back --

7 MR. HUBER: Yeah. Well, ours will have

8 a serial number. All but one manufacturer here

9 has -- doesn't have his serial number on theirs

10 but the rest of us do.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Bob Barbour.

12 MR. BARBOUR: Bob Barbour with Taco. And

13 this is directed more to Lucas.

14 Lucas, when someone is actually put into

15 the data base, is each model given a -- like a

16 listing number that could be then put onto the

17 label that would tie back to all the information?

18 MR. ADIN: Well, the -- so the way that

19 we do it for pretty much every other product, I

20 can't think of a -- an exception is that they're

21 listed by model number. So the way to find a

22 particular --
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1 MR. BARBOUR: But there's no listing

2 number.

3 (Off the record)

4 MR. ADIN: A basic model. Right. Thank

5 you. But they're listed by basic model and

6 individual model number.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: And individual. So

8 they'd have basic models and then they'd have an

9 extension or some way to qualify that it's a part

10 of that basic model, but it's a distinctive

11 individual --

12 (Off the record)

13 MR. ADIN: The rating has -- is actually

14 described yesterday. The rating has to be

15 assigned on the basis of basic model number.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.

17 MR. ADIN: Where all the individual

18 model numbers that are the same basic model would

19 just have the same rating.

20 MR. HANDZEL: So that'll be the same

21 number -- Mark Handzel -- that'll be the same

22 number that we would put on our nameplate.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: That was Mark Handzel.

2 MR. ADIN: Yes. That's right.

3 (Off the record)

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Bob, keep going.

5 MR. BARBOUR: This is Bob Barbour again

6 from Taco. So I want to make sure I understand

7 this. The basic model would be the -- say one and

8 a half, two by one and a half by seven pump with a

9 --

10 MR. HUBER: Yeah.

11 MR. BARBOUR: -- full wheel at BEP and

12 that would be certified as being -- meeting the

13 appropriate PEI point or PEI CL.

14 If we then had customers that wanted to

15 trim and use different drives underneath smaller -

16 - so smaller impellers --

17 MR. HANDZEL: But that's why we're using

18 --

19 MR. BARBOUR: -- and different drives.

20 MR. HANDZEL: -- a nominal number, Bob.

21 MR. BARBOUR: Then that would all still

22 qualify under that one basic model --
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1 MR. HUBER: That is correct.

2 MR. BARBOUR: -- certification?

3 MR. HUBER: That is correct.

4 MR. BARBOUR: That's how we're --

5 MR. HANDZEL: Because we're certified

6 based on full load impeller. That's why we're

7 calling it "nominal" even though --

8 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Variation --

9 MR. HANDZEL: -- a trim version that

10 we're supplying, but we're showing the PEI nominal

11 CL on the nameplate.

12 MR. ADIN: Yeah, right, changes made to

13 the product that are different from the -- or the

14 configuration under which it's required to be

15 rated wouldn't be. Right?

16 So if you trim the impeller subsequent

17 to the rating of the product based on full

18 impeller, that's not -- right. That's different.

19 MR. HUBER: Yeah, it's --

20 MR. BROOKMAN: And I -- I didn't -- I

21 did not follow that. Yeah, so will you say it

22 again.
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1 MR. ADIN: So we agreed previously that

2 the basis of the rating and the standard is on

3 testing of the pump at full impeller.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Right.

5 MR. ADIN: So if someone were to trim

6 the impeller --

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Uh-huh.

8 MR. ADIN: -- for a particular

9 application, that does not invalidate the rating

10 of that particular basic model of pump.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. That was very

12 clear. Charlie.

13 MR. CAPPELINO: Charlie Cappelino, ITT.

14 So maybe another way to basically describe this is

15 you need enough information in the data base to be

16 able to tie back to the certification testing.

17 Right?

18 MR. ADIN: That's right.

19 MR. CAPPELINO: So it's got to be a walk

20 back. So --

21 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Basic model.

22 MR. CAPPELINO: -- so not only the size
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1 information that you talked about, Bob, but

2 whatever product designation you have for that

3 family of sizes as well.

4 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Whatever you call

5 it.

6 MR. CAPPELINO: Whatever you call that

7 product.

8 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Models.

9 MR. CAPPELINO: Whatever it is you use

10 to identify it. That's -- I mean, for every other

11 product, it's a model number, so.

12 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Right. Right.

13 (Off the record)

14 MR. FERNSTROM: This -- this is Gary. I

15 have a question though. In Bob's example, he said

16 "different drive." And I don't know whether a

17 product with a different drive would be part of

18 the same basic product class or not.

19 MS. WIDDER: So the issue here is beyond

20 drives. I think he may have said "drives." And

21 correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm really talking

22 about motors. I think he's talking about motor
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1 sizing.

2 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Motor or drive

3 could be smaller.

4 MS. WIDDER: Well, so could be different

5 sizes. Right. So if you trim the impeller

6 significantly, you can get away with a smaller

7 motor and maybe a smaller drive.

8 And it wouldn't be appropriate to rate

9 the full trim impeller pump with those smaller

10 motors and drives. It's just not -- it didn't

11 make sense. And so --

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's be careful about

13 the lexicon here. Because when you said "product

14 class," you meant basic model.

15 MR. FERNSTROM: That's what I meant.

16 MS. WIDDER: Yeah.

17 MR. ADIN: Right. And so to be a little

18 clearer about that, because we're talking about

19 pumps with drives as being different from pumps

20 without a drive, it wouldn't be the same basic

21 model.

22 It just depends on where that drive is
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1 attached to that particular -- is that -- was that

2 answering your question or?

3 MS. WIDDER: No, I think it was more you

4 do get -- it's a different size drive that could

5 be put on a pump with an impeller trim, same pump,

6 same wet end.

7 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay.

8 MS. WIDDER: But it's a trimmed

9 impeller. And so it can receive a smaller motor

10 and a smaller drive.

11 (Off the record)

12 MS. WIDDER: Not necessarily a different

13 drive, but a smaller.

14 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay. So, Sarah, let me

15 -- this is Gary again.

16 MS. WIDDER: Yeah.

17 MR. FERNSTROM: Let me ask a follow-up

18 question.

19 MS. WIDDER: Sure.

20 MR. FERNSTROM: I think we're talking in

21 the context of products that would be certified

22 through the analytical process here. If a product
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1 is actually tested, would the full size impeller

2 and motor and drive sold with that be tested and

3 then maybe a product of the same basic model but

4 of smaller size not be tested and still be

5 certified? I'm wondering how that would work.

6 MS. WIDDER: So I think -- I'm going to

7 describe something and let me know if it answers

8 your question.

9 So to Lucas's point, so if I were to

10 sell a pump with a motor and a drive at full

11 impeller as well as lower -- as several impeller

12 trims and I paired it with similar but smaller

13 motors and drives, all of that equipment would be

14 under the same basic model.

15 MR. FERNSTROM: Right.

16 MS. WIDDER: If, let's say, I offer this

17 pump -- and this is going to be a weird scenario

18 so you guys are going to look at me funny -- but

19 let's say I look at -- I offer this pump with a

20 motor and a drive, like a VFD and then an ECM

21 motor, and I offer the motor and drive all the way

22 up to what is full impeller trim and then I offer
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1 the ECM only to 75 percent of full.

2 Because it's a ECM, 75 percent of

3 impeller trim becomes full impeller trim because

4 it's a different basic model. It's a different

5 motor. And so if I didn't offer it all the way up

6 to what is the same as full impeller trim on that

7 same wet end, it's -- it's whatever's the largest

8 impeller trim that is offered with that

9 configuration of products.

10 Does that answer your question, sort of?

11 DOUG BROOKMAN: It does. I see Al has a

12 follow-up question, Gary.

13 MS. WIDDER: Yeah.

14 MR. HUBER: Give me just a moment to

15 clarify this. So the question that I'm trying to

16 answer for myself is when we get this performance

17 rating, will it be indicative of the performance

18 of the product being sold?

19 And I think the answer's maybe no. It

20 would be indicative of that product model group

21 basic model but not necessarily the exact product

22 being sold.
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1 MR. ADIN: With respect to the way that

2 basic models are rated, I mean, typically what a

3 manufacturer would do is, if they're going to

4 group basic models that way, they'd base it on the

5 least efficient rating within that basic model

6 group.

7 So every other individual model should

8 be at least as good as what that rating says so

9 that if tested and it didn't pass --

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber.

11 MR. HUBER: That's not --

12 MS. WIDDER: Yeah.

13 MR. HUBER: -- what we're doing here.

14 We're rating it in -- I can tell you no. If you

15 rate it at full diameter impeller, that is the

16 best efficiency you're going to get.

17 MS. WIDDER: Right.

18 MR. HUBER: And that's the rating --

19 MR. ADIN: Right.

20 MR. HUBER: -- for the pump. So every

21 time you trim it, it changes.

22 MR. ADIN: I'm not talking about
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1 variations in impeller trim.

2 MR. HUBER: Well, yeah, but that's what

3 she's talking about. That's the problem. If I

4 trim it, then I can use a smaller -- smaller motor

5 or a smaller drive.

6 She's saying, and I agreed with what she

7 said the first time, which is, it'll be -- the

8 certification under PER VL will be done at full

9 diameter, full horsepower, full VFD.

10 MS. WIDDER: Uh-huh.

11 MR. HUBER: We do not agree that if I

12 change motors that it's a different model or if I

13 change motor types, like go to an ECM, it's now a

14 different model. Because I mean, we're going to

15 get --

16 MR. BROOKMAN: 'Cause you want the basic

17 model to correspond to the --

18 MR. HUBER: The pump model.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: -- the pump.

20 MS. WIDDER: So --

21 (Off the record)

22 MR. HUBER: If you don't, we're going to
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1 get real complicated real fast, and we're going to

2 -- we're going to burden the industry with a bunch

3 of additional information.

4 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah, so this is Alison.

5 I think that technically since you voted to limit

6 the scope to full impellers, technically trimmed

7 impellers don't actually --

8 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Aren't covered.

9 MS. WILLIAMS: -- receive a rating. So

10 we can -- as part of the labeling requirement,

11 right, require that nominal full impeller trim

12 reading on the label but they're not actually

13 subject to standards.

14 Does that --

15 MS. HUBER: No, that doesn't make sense.

16 Not subject to standards doesn't make any sense.

17 MS. WILLIAMS: Right.

18 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: I think that --

19 MR. HUBER: What makes sense is -- and I

20 agree with you, it is a nominal rating.

21 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah.

22 MR. HUBER: At full diameter, that's
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1 what's going to be on the label and nothing else.

2 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay. So this is Gary

3 again. Let me ask one more follow-up question. I

4 want to make sure that when our measurement and

5 evaluation field audit team goes out to see what's

6 installed they can tell from the label that what's

7 there is what we thought was there.

8 But secondly, I want to make sure it

9 works the way we thought it did. So we're going

10 to have nominal information to base our rebates

11 on, how much might the actual product installed

12 vary from the efficiency performance of the

13 nominal product.

14 MR. HUBER: It -- Gary, it depends on

15 the trim range of the pump. And it can be

16 extreme. I mean, we're talking about going from -

17 - from, say, 90 to in the 60s efficiency wise.

18 Depends on how far away from the cut water, how

19 far from -- I mean, how far from the -- from the

20 design that you get.

21 And we -- and we very rarely sell -- and

22 we went through this before -- we very rarely sell
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1 full diameter. We do sometimes but it is not

2 often.

3 So most of the -- most of the product

4 that you see out there is not gonna to be at full

5 diameter. So that's why -- that's why he kept

6 telling you we want it to say "nominal" 'cause

7 that's what it is. It is for that family.

8 Now, what are you getting from that?

9 Well, you're getting -- if it -- if the full

10 diameter meets it and is improved and is better,

11 so is the trim range. It all improves literally.

12 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay. Thank you.

13 MR. HUBER: But I can't -- you don't

14 understand. We can trim impellers to 1/16 of an

15 inch --

16 MR. FERNSTROM: Yeah.

17 MR. HUBER: -- each increment. And

18 sometimes we trim 2 or 3 inches.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: When you trim --

20 MR. HUBER: So you can -- you can think

21 -- if you think about the number of ratings you'd

22 have to have within one model, it would be
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1 astronomical.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: So that basic model when

3 you trim the impeller, the efficiency of that

4 pump, the inherent efficiency with the other --

5 the other modifications is going to be --

6 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: The best

7 efficiency for that trimmed impeller could be less

8 than the best efficiency with the full run.

9 MR. HUBER: It more -- more than likely

10 will be. I mean, it depends on how much you have

11 to trim. But it -- more than likely it will drop.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

13 MR. HUBER: And it drops like this.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Charlie Cappelino.

15 MR. CAPPELINO: Charlie Cappelino, ITT.

16 So from -- Gary, from a rebate standpoint, I

17 presume you're mostly considering applications

18 where you have applied a variable speed drive.

19 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. Yes, that

20 would be correct.

21 MR. CAPPELINO: So, Al, when you're

22 selling a pump with a variable speed drive, the
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1 probability of having a max diameter impeller in

2 there to begin with is probably pretty high.

3 Right?

4 MR. HUBER: Not necessarily. No, they

5 will give us a design point and it could be -- it

6 could be -- and we do it every day, and a lot of

7 times, no, the answer's no. The answer is

8 absolutely no.

9 MR. FERNSTROM: But this --

10 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel. I'll answer

11 differently and say that the industry is changing,

12 Charlie. And we are seeing more specifications

13 for pumps with drives with full runner impellers.

14 Okay.

15 So we are starting to see it. So it's

16 not -- it's not 100 percent like I think Al may

17 have implied but, you know, it's not -- it's not

18 the majority by any means at this point. But it

19 is --

20 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Not even close.

21 MR. HANDZEL: Yeah, not even close. But

22 people are starting to recognize, you know, go
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1 with the full runner, so you get the best

2 efficiency and use a drive to slow it down to

3 match what you need.

4 MR. FERNSTROM: So this is -- this is

5 Gary again. I'm trying to get to the answer I

6 want to hear. And I thought Al was close to it.

7 Might we expect the improvement to flow

8 through the range of trimmed impeller products?

9 MR. HUBER: There's no question about

10 it, Gary.

11 MR. HANDZEL: As we redesign products,

12 of course you get a corresponding increase in

13 efficiency across all trims. Okay. So it's --

14 it's just that the -- you may trim yourself out of

15 what we call the "best efficiency point." And

16 that's where you're going to see, you know, the

17 concern.

18 MR. FERNSTROM: So if -- one more

19 question -- if I order a pump and I want the

20 impeller trimmed, maybe significantly, such that I

21 see a reduction in efficiency, would I have a

22 choice of selecting a different pump that may be -
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1 -

2 MR. HANDZEL: Of course.

3 MR. FERNSTROM: -- originally but

4 presumably the specifying engineer would pick the

5 best --

6 MR. HANDZEL: Efficiency pump.

7 MR. FERNSTROM: -- efficiency pump. And

8 it's probably more expensive and less desirable to

9 get an oversized pump and trim it than it is to

10 get one that's more properly sized to begin with.

11 MR. HANDZEL: So, Gary -- Mark Handzel

12 from Xylem -- we all have -- most of us have

13 selection programs or some of us use industry

14 standard selection programs. Those programs

15 typically select the most efficient pump and list

16 that as the number one selection.

17 So we try to encourage, you know, the

18 people to go with those. But we may be selecting

19 a trimmed impeller pump, okay, just because that's

20 the most efficient pump.

21 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay.

22 MR. HANDZEL: So, you know, we don't --
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1 we don't try to force anybody to full runners, you

2 know. We suggest they go with the most efficient

3 pump.

4 MR. FERNSTROM: Thank you.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Doug Potts.

6 MR. POTTS: And, Gary, just another

7 comment to add to that.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Doug Potts.

9 MR. POTTS: That's okay. Doug Potts.

10 Just another comment to add to that is that, yeah,

11 as you trim an impeller, it becomes less efficient

12 but it's also using less horsepower, so.

13 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Even more

14 desirable as well.

15 MR. POTTS: Overall your energy usage is

16 most likely going to be less as you trim the

17 impeller.

18 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay. This is Gary.

19 Thank you all.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. Louis.

21 MR. STARR: So one question I have is a

22 lot of times there's no way to know that
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1 impeller's trimmed or not, right, or unless you

2 take and look at the operating point and look on

3 the pump curve and --

4 MR. HANDZEL: So when -- this is Mark

5 Handzel from Xylem -- when you're using most

6 software, the way they mostly operate is that, you

7 know, you can see right away, we show you like a

8 graphic image of the curve and you can tell where

9 it falls in the band of flow.

10 Okay. So you can -- we make it very --

11 most of us make it very visible. But it --

12 MR. STARR: Be nice --

13 MR. HANDZEL: -- doesn't flag that it's

14 full runner but you can see it graphically.

15 MR. STARR: Be nice if on the pump case

16 you knew somehow whether the impeller was trimmed.

17 I mean, that's because when you go out there --

18 not -- I mean, it'd be great if you could see

19 through the pump case, that'd be even better.

20 (Off the record)

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber.

22 MR. HUBER: If you, Louis, if you -- if
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1 you look at -- if you look at the model and you

2 look at the -- most people's curves show you what

3 full diameter is.

4 And I know we do. I don't know if

5 everybody else does. We put the diameter of the

6 impeller that's actually in there. So if you --

7 if you looked at it and you looked at the curve,

8 you could tell it was trimmed.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: On the label?

10 MR. HUBER: On the label, yeah.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Each basic model,

12 it would be there on the label.

13 MR. HUBER: No.

14 (Off the record)

15 MR. HUBER: No, no, no, no.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

17 MS. WIDDER: Individual models.

18 MR. HUBER: Only what was to ship.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Greg Towsley.

20 MR. TOWSLEY: I agree with that last

21 point. A lot of times the nameplates have what

22 the actual diameter trim impeller is.
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1 Something to add, to EE NGOs (ph), when

2 you start talking about trimmed impellers, you're

3 talking about a constant speed pump.

4 There's a few -- there's a few engineers

5 that will trim impellers and require VFDs. That's

6 questionable why -- sometimes why that's done,

7 depending on what the application is.

8 But yeah, but when you take a look at

9 the PEI that we're talking about -- again, this is

10 my opinion -- but if you were to see a constant

11 speed pump with a PEI CL, I'm 90 percent sure that

12 it probably has a trimmed impeller in it, that it

13 didn't go out as standard if it's constant speed

14 because they're trying to hit a specific head and

15 flow point.

16 But at the same time, if I were to see a

17 pump, and you're looking at ways to incentivize,

18 if I saw a pump that had a PEI of a VL which is

19 going to be considerably lower, again I'm 90

20 percent confident that it'll have a full diameter

21 impeller or very near full diameter impeller.

22 Any --
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1 MS. MAUER: This is --

2 MR. TOWSLEY: -- comments from the

3 other?

4 MS. MAUER: This is Joanna. I was just

5 going to say it sounds different than what Al and

6 Mark --

7 MR. HUBER: Well, it --

8 MS. MAUER: -- were saying.

9 MR. HUBER: -- it depends on -- it

10 certainly depends on whether you're shipping it

11 constant load or variable load. There is a shift

12 in the marketplace now where some customers are

13 asking for full diameter impellers.

14 But it is -- at this point it is

15 dependent on which market it is and which type of

16 pump it is and so forth. It has not been adopted

17 fully and we're not seeing it. Right now it's a

18 small percentage at this point but it's growing.

19 People are understanding they don't have to trim.

20 They can take full diameter and slow it down.

21 Did that answer your question?

22 MS. MAUER: Yeah. Thank you.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Are there other things to

2 be said with respect to labeling? I notice that

3 Sarah has a slide up here. Do you think you've

4 captured what -- the foregoing conversation?

5 MS. WIDDER: So what I've heard as being

6 attractive potentially to be on the label, the

7 same as standard refers to the PL -- PEI CL -- oh,

8 go ahead.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Hang on just a second. I

10 want to make sure I've got everybody's attention

11 while you're summarizing what we might be adding

12 as a recommendation. Now proceed.

13 MS. WIDDER: Okay. So what I heard in

14 terms of -- well, I'll just first summarize the

15 whole impeller trim thing which I think we got

16 resolved as all impeller trims would be certified

17 as at full runner impeller and that certification

18 would hold for any impeller trim sold, you know,

19 for that pump model, for that pump basic model.

20 The label for that pump model would

21 include, for each individual model would include

22 the PEI CL or VL as appropriate for that basic
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1 model under which the pump is certified, the model

2 number so you could trace it back to the other

3 data that's in the data base easily.

4 And I noted this last maybe up for

5 debate, but I heard I think Louis mention that

6 maybe it would be helpful to have the impeller

7 diameter and that be common on some pump labels

8 already.

9 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: It's on -- it's

10 on the --

11 (Off the record)

12 MS. WIDDER: So impeller diameter,

13 that's a no never mind, but we could include it

14 any ways because that's helpful for the utility

15 folks to help them understand what that product

16 they're trying to verify actually is.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber. No.

18 MS. WIDDER: Okay.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: So that summary --

20 MS. WIDDER: I think Meg has an

21 addition.

22 MS. WALTNER: Just to --
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Please, Meg.

2 MS. WALTNER: -- clarify. That's the

3 actual impeller diameter.

4 MS. WIDDER: Yes, for each unit.

5 MS. WALTNER: So if it's a trimmed

6 impeller, that's the actual -- okay.

7 MR. WIDDER: Uh-huh.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Do you wish to vote on

9 this and just send this as a recommendation on how

10 labeling should be?

11 Mark Handzel.

12 MR. HANDZEL: I guess I'm just trying to

13 understand. Why do we have options A and B? What

14 are you trying to accomplish?

15 MS. WIDDER: Nothing. I can delete --

16 MS. HANDZEL: Okay. Because --

17 MS. WIDDER: -- A.

18 MR. HANDZEL: -- because --

19 MS. WIDDER: Let me delete A and just

20 add -- say "label." We don't need this.

21 MR. HANDZEL: Okay. And the only thing

22 I'd --
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1 MS. WIDDER: How's that?

2 MR. HANDZEL: -- just say is, obviously

3 we've been talking about this being a nominal

4 value. So I just -- would just ask today we add

5 "nominal."

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Hang on.

7 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. You know what I'll

8 do --

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Sarah.

10 MS. WIDDER: Yes.

11 (Off the record)

12 MS. WIDDER: Go ahead. I can multi13 task. I'm listening.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber.

15 MR. HUBER: When you said both

16 controlled and uncontrolled performance captured

17 on the label, it's -- that's not what we proposed.

18 What we proposed is if we sell it as a bare pump

19 or as --

20 MS. WIDDER: Oh, sorry.

21 MR. HUBER: -- a bare pump and motor.

22 MS. WIDDER: Yeah, sorry. I didn't mean
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1 that.

2 MR. HUBER: You didn't mean that. Okay.

3 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: You corrected the

4 chart but not the verbiage.

5 MS. WIDDER: Right, I didn't --

6 MR. HUBER: All right.

7 MS. WIDDER: -- address the -- I didn't

8 address the up -- the top part.

9 MR. HUBER: Okay. Okay. Is that --

10 there you go. I think that's consistent.

11 MR. POTTS: I have a comment when you're

12 done.

13 MS. WIDDER: Yep, go ahead.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Have you got it all the

15 way you want it?

16 MS. WIDDER: I think so.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Please, Doug

18 Potts.

19 MR. POTTS: Doug Potts. So I understand

20 that we use the PER CL and PER VL. That's -- I

21 understand why we have to use the full diameter.

22 But there is a little bit of a risk that
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1 we could confuse the marketplace by giving the PER

2 that's the nominal for the full impeller, but

3 we're also saying what the actual impeller is for

4 that particular model.

5 Some people could misconstrue that as

6 thinking, oh, that's the PER for the actual pump

7 that I'm purchasing.

8 Is there some way that we can add a note

9 on that label to make it clear that it's --

10 (Off the record)

11 MR. POTTS: -- truly a nominal --

12 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Nominal over and

13 over and over again.

14 MR. POTTS: Yeah.

15 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: That we -- we

16 will label it as nominal. So really the label

17 needs -- it should be PEI CL nominal, NOM --

18 (Off the record)

19 MR. HUBER: Let me ask Greg Towsley a

20 question because I think he is more familiar than

21 the rest of us.

22 In Europe they're labeling it an MEI,
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1 but they're also doing what we're talking about.

2 Right? They're only doing it at full diameter,

3 but they're not putting the word "nominal" on

4 there, are they?

5 MR. CASE: No, they're not. Greg

6 Towsley, Grundfos. No, it's exactly for the full

7 diameter as tested per the regulation.

8 I think the clarification, at least for

9 us on the communication piece, is in all of our

10 I&Os that are shipped out with the pumps there's

11 more detail about the nameplate label and what's

12 in it and what's designated in it.

13 And that may be the place to be able to

14 give more communication about what that means and

15 any -- I don't want to say "disclaimers," but any

16 better communication on it. But usually the IOMs

17 would have that in there so -- that ship with the

18 pump.

19 MS. WILLIAMS: This is Alison. I just

20 looked up the EU requirements. So there is just

21 the one MEI. But they also have a labeling

22 requirement that says "hydraulic pump efficiency
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1 with trimmed impeller actual value or

2 alternatively the indication blank," which Euro

3 Pump I guess interpreted as you have to have that

4 clause on the pump. You can either provide the

5 value or you cannot provide the value.

6 I don't really understand the merit of

7 that (inaudible) but I just wanted to be clear

8 that that's what they're apparently doing in the

9 EU.

10 And the other thing I wanted to add is

11 that since PEI is the metric, which is really just

12 a ratio, it's maybe not -- and similarly the MEI

13 is just sort of like a value. Right? They don't

14 really indicate the energy use of the pump. They

15 just sort of indicate it's relative performance.

16 So perhaps it's not as misleading as it

17 would be were it an actual energy use value.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Louis.

19 MR. STARR: I just have one other

20 question. You know, a lot of times the engineer

21 puts in its design point you get out there and

22 then there actually is more -- less pressure drop.
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1 So do you ever go back and re-trim the

2 impeller again or is it just one-stop or do they

3 just put the valve and crank it down so that you

4 get the pressure drop you need and?

5 MR. HUBER: They either cycle it off --

6 on and off more often or they crank it down, but

7 they normally don't ask us to come back and trim

8 it. We have but it is extremely rare.

9 MR. HANDZEL: And Mark Handzel from

10 Xylem. Greg --

11 MR. HUBER: They should but they don't.

12 MR. HANDZEL: -- 90.1 says they're

13 supposed to, doesn't it, go back and trim after

14 it's done commissioning?

15 (Off the record)

16 MR. HANDZEL: Actually 90.1 for

17 buildings, you know, HVAC applications does

18 specify that they're supposed to come back and

19 trim. But like Al said, it doesn't happen. It's

20 too costly.

21 (Off the record)

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Do you think the
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1 words up there on the screen are an accurate

2 reflection of where we have landed here?

3 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel from Xylem.

4 So the thing that kind of relates to this is also

5 what's -- what's in the data base.

6 So, Sarah, I don't think we're

7 collecting the full runner impeller diameter in

8 the data base, are we, right now?

9 MS. WIDDER: We haven't talked about

10 what we're going to collect at all yet.

11 MR. HANDZEL: I know. But I mean, if

12 we're going to -- but we're --

13 MS. WIDDER: This is a preliminary list

14 that --

15 MR. HANDZEL: Right.

16 MS. WIDDER: -- I started over lunch.

17 That could be added to. Full impeller diameter

18 could be on there.

19 MR. HANDZEL: I don't know if it needs -

20 -

21 MS. WIDDER: I don't think it is

22 necessarily relevant.
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1 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Well, no, I don't

2 want to either. But I guess.

3 (Off the record)

4 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Yeah, it did.

5 That's right. That's -- you know, my concern is

6 that full size impeller diameter describes the

7 basic model because that's what we're basing the

8 data on.

9 So I'm not trying to add anything to it,

10 but I almost think we need to have it in there.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: The "impeller as shipped"

12 would be on there.

13 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: The "impeller as

14 shipped" will be on the nameplate.

15 MS. WIDDER: On the label.

16 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: On the nameplate.

17 MS. WIDDER: Not the basic model.

18 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Yeah, but you got

19 the modeling crosswalk back to the -- to the full

20 lab. I mean, it's -- but we really need it in

21 there for their purposes.

22 (Off the record)
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1 MR. HANDZEL: Okay. So I think that's

2 why it's got to be in there. So -- this is Mark.

3 I think we have a consensus that it

4 needs to be in there, the full impeller diameter.

5 Because otherwise, there's no reference to know

6 what the PEI is based on in terms of --

7 (Off the record)

8 MR. HANDZEL: Right. So it does define

9 the basic model, so it needs to be in there.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Oh, and this is the --

11 MR. HANDZEL: Right.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: -- just to be clear for

13 the record, this is -- this slide reads, "Data to

14 be included in the certification report." So

15 that's in addition to that.

16 So with this, Sarah, I'm okay with now

17 going back to the nameplate.

18 MS. WIDDER: Okay.

19 MR. HANDZEL: And I think we're good to

20 -- I just want to make sure we --

21 MS. WIDDER: Yep.

22 MR. HANDZEL: -- we're cross-
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1 referencing.

2 MS. WIDDER: Yep. Yep.

3 MR. HANDZEL: Thank you.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Would you like to make

5 this listing a recommendation from the Working

6 Group to ASRAC?

7 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Yes.

8 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Yes, we would.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Okay. So then you

10 want to just read it.

11 MS. WIDDER: Sure. Okay. So the top

12 words are not really that relevant. I guess we

13 could say -- let's say this, now it's more

14 relevant, "Pumps are to be labeled based on the

15 configuration in which they are sold." So the

16 uncontrolled pumps would receive a PER CL -- or

17 change this to PEI -- apologize -- and the

18 controlled pumps would receive a PEI VL as noted

19 in the table.

20 So the applicable nominal standard --

21 I'll add the word "nominal" -- because I think you

22 guys --
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1 MR. HUBER: Well, no, I thought what

2 Alison said was that it's really not -- because

3 this is already an index, you don't need to. Isn't

4 that what you said, Alison?

5 (Off the record)

6 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah, right. Because - I

7 don't know if you need it or not. I was just

8 pointing out but perhaps it wasn't --

9 MS. WIDDER: Yeah.

10 MS. WILLIAMS: -- as confusing.

11 MR. HANDZEL: So I'm okay with not

12 including it.

13 MS. WIDDER: Okay. Great.

14 MR. HANDZEL: As long as none of my

15 fellow guys object to it.

16 MR. ADIN: And I --

17 MS. WIDDER: I would prefer that because

18 clearer terms are going to --

19 MR. ADIN: I just want to -- yeah, and I

20 want to be clear about something, too. This is

21 Lucas.

22 I mean, the way we've been talking about
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1 all this all along is that there really is only,

2 for our purposes, one PEI which is at full

3 impeller. That's what the standard is based on,

4 that's what the test procedure measure is.

5 So if you put "nominal," it might imply

6 that there's something else, so --

7 MR. HANDZEL: No, I --

8 MR. ADIN: -- really there's, you know.

9 MR. HANDZEL: Right. I'm okay with --

10 MR. ADIN: Unless we identify -- sorry,

11 identify something else, then that's --

12 MR. HANDZEL: But like I said, I think

13 it'll be up to all of us to educate and -- because

14 we're going to start putting a name and people are

15 going to say, What the heck is that.

16 MR. ADIN: Right.

17 MR. HANDZEL: Okay. Because it's just

18 something new. We haven't changed our nameplates

19 in 40 years, so.

20 MR. ADIN: Sure.

21 MR. HANDZEL: But it's fine. Leave it

22 off.
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1 MS. WIDDER: Right. Okay.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

3 MS. WIDDER: Great. So that would be

4 reflected on the --

5 MR. HANDZEL: Oh, Lucas, DOE has a

6 marketing campaign to help us advertise this.

7 Right? There goes my taxes. Don't raise any

8 taxes, please.

9 MR. ADIN: A certification database.

10 MS. WIDDER: Right. So the standard for

11 -- the applicable standard for each basic model

12 would be on the nameplate, the model number -- and

13 in that case, that refers to the individual model

14 number, to the extent there are multiple

15 individual models that are certified under the

16 same basic model -- and the impeller diameter for

17 each unit, each individual pump, that is sold.

18 (Off the record)

19 MS. WIDDER: Yep. I'll add commas, too.

20 We'll be grammatically correct.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Why is the comma after

22 the CL and the VL?
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1 MS. WIDDER: Because it's PEI CL, comma,

2 model number, comma.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Oh.

4 MS. WIDDER: And (inaudible).

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

6 MS. WIDDER: Okay.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis.

8 MR. STARR: So does it -- do you need to

9 make it distinguished whether it's a tested value

10 or a calculated value somehow or does it -- you

11 would know that or?

12 MS. WIDDER: I think that would

13 potentially be more appropriate for the

14 certification database.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: So this is good. We're

16 gaining ground on this I think.

17 And go back to the previous slide. Are

18 we ready to say this is the recommendation from

19 the Working Group? Yes? Okay. Lucas.

20 MR. ADIN: I just want to be clear on

21 what the recommendation is. We're saying this is

22 the content that would be required to be on a pump
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1 nameplate for any type of pump that's covered

2 under this regulation?

3 MR. BROOKMAN: That's what I thought.

4 MR. ADIN: Okay.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah.

6 MR. ADIN: Thank you.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Required. This is --

8 MS. WIDDER: Oh, I'm going to clarify

9 that --

10 MR. BROOKMAN: This is the --

11 MS. WIDDER: -- in this.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: -- the recommendation

13 from the Working Group for a required label.

14 MS. WIDDER: I'm going to do this. Does

15 that capture it, Lucas?

16 MR. ADIN: I think so.

17 MS. WIDDER: Do you want to add anything

18 else?

19 MR. BROOKMAN: So the new slide reads,

20 "Metric applicability, colon, standard versus

21 label." First bullet, "Pumps are labeled based on

22 the configuration in which they are sold." Sub-
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1 bullet, "Uncontrolled pumps are, arrow, constant

2 load pump energy rating PEI," subscript "CL," sub3 bullet two, "Controlled pumps are, arrow, variable

4 load pump energy rating PEI," subscript, "VL" --

5 MS. WIDDER: I'm going to switch on you.

6 I'm -- I apologize. Rating is index.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Right.

8 I should have caught that.

9 MS. WIDDER: That's okay. I should

10 have, too.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: The second complete

12 bullet is: "The following information should be

13 required to be included on a pump nameplate." And

14 that is the graphic which we'll print off and make

15 available.

16 Okay. So are we ready to do this? You

17 want to caucus?

18 (Off the record)

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Let's just take a

20 few minutes.

21 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: The discussion is

22 whether we ought to have on the label where this
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1 PEI is calculated, the PEI that's --

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Al. That's okay.

3 MR. HUBER: Sorry.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: No, just talk about it.

5 When would you -- you want to do it now or do you

6 want to --

7 (Off the record)

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Let's take a --

9 let's take a five-minute break and see when we get

10 back here.

11 (WHEREUPON, a recess was taken.)

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Let's resume.

13 Al Huber.

14 MR. HUBER: We resolved our issue. We're

15 fine with that.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: You're fine with

17 what's there.

18 MR. HUBER: Although one, one, -- one

19 manufacturer pointed out we needed to redo the

20 Manufacturer Impact because of all this labeling

21 now that we got to do.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So then I
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1 think we're ready, if everybody's comfortable.

2 We're missing one or two persons, but -- one

3 person, I guess, only. We'll catch him up when he

4 returns. To see if this group is ready now to take

5 a vote to make this slide content a recommendation

6 from the Working Group to ASRAC. So all those in

7 favor? Louis?

8 MR. STARR: Just one last thing. You

9 know, that PEI CL is going to be pretty hard to

10 get a subscript on a label. The numbers are

11 already pretty small, but if you feel confident

12 that you're going to be able to get --

13 MR. BROOKMAN: So maybe it shouldn't

14 be a sub -- shouldn't be a subscript?

15 MR. STARR: Well, maybe. I don't know.

16 Just something -- It's more the pump guys. They

17 didn't even buy --

18 MR. BROOKMAN: When --

19 MS. WIDDER: Underscore.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: For --

21 MR. ADIN: So for implementation

22 purposes. I mean this would have to be addressed
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1 through rulemaking too. So we would take comments

2 on all this. I mean this is more of a

3 certification and compliance related thing that

4 eventually we will address separately. So do we -

5 - well, I don't have to go that far, but you're

6 sure?

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Jay?

8 MR. SIVIGNY: Jay Sivigny, Flowserve.

9 Just we're doing some really great work on these

10 votes on detailed slides that you're doing on the

11 fly. Can we get these e-mailed tonight for just

12 reference --

13 MS. WIDDER: Yeah.

14 MR. SIVIGNY: -- purposes? We don't

15 have to have them printed, but I would like

16 records of what we voted on because a lot of it

17 was in the spreadsheet --

18 MR. ADIN: Yes.

19 MR. SIVIGNY: In the PowerPoints. Okay.

20 MS. WIDDER: Yes. Label requirements.

21 How's that? How about just label requirements?

22 Oh, yes. Recommendations. That's, that's more
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1 accurate.

2 MS. WILLIAMS: I'm also updating the

3 thing we sent out earlier to include all this

4 stuff. So we can send that updated sheet out as

5 well.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Oh, good. Thank you,

7 Alison. So then I've just confirmed that we're

8 about ready to see if the Working Group wishes to

9 send this forward as a recommendation that would

10 be included in the term sheet. All those in favor

11 of taking this content, which will be sent, and

12 inserting it in the term sheet, please signify by

13 raising your hand and voting aye. Casting my

14 eyes, one member has not voted. Thirteen. We

15 have 13 yeses. And Lucas Adin?

16 MR. ADIN: Abstain.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: And one abstention.

18 Thirteen yeses and one abstention. And actually

19 two abstentions 'cause Steve Rosenstock is an

20 abstention, and one absent, if you're going to be

21 careful. So then you're making a notation?

22 MS. WIDDER: I did.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Oh, thank you.

2 Let's go to the data slide. Why don't you just

3 walk us through what you've got there?

4 MS. WIDDER: Sure. So this is a

5 preliminary list of --

6 MR. BROOKMAN: And this, of course,

7 is in response -- pardon me for interrupting you.

8 MS. WIDDER: Yeah, no.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: This is in response

10 to the discussion we began yesterday. Joanna

11 raised this. Greg raised it again this morning.

12 Actually I want to address these issues briefly.

13 And she said DOE has some flexibility, but they

14 don't quite know what they're going to do. That's

15 a, kind of a -- anyway. So continue. Actually it

16 just basically said we've done it a bunch of

17 different ways and we'd appreciate a

18 recommendation, I think, is what she said.

19 MR. ADIN: I think what -- right.

20 So we have templates for all these other products.

21 We would use a template for these, presumably. I

22 don't know of any reason why we wouldn't. I think
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1 the question is about which specific data items we

2 would actually be collecting. At a minimum it has

3 to be the rating that is used to determine

4 compliance with the standard.

5 So to the extent there are other things

6 that we want to collect data on, I think what

7 Ashley was indicting is that we're interested in

8 your input and we're happy to consider whatever

9 other information you think is, is needed.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: That's a better way

11 of saying it. Okay. So then, Sarah, walk us

12 through this.

13 MS. WIDDER: Sure. I think this is the

14 correct bifurcation, but let me know if not. I've

15 now separated into necessary elements, as Lucas

16 noted, that would, are more non-negotiable in

17 terms of, of reporting to DOE, and then some

18 additional elements that might be desirable. The

19 necessary elements are the individual model

20 numbers certified under a given basic model. The

21 PEI CL or VL as applicable. So the standard

22 level. The BEP flow rate and head, which would
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1 describe the hydraulic situation that that pump is

2 being rated for. The speed, the rated speed,

3 'cause that will be -- the standard will be a

4 function of speed. And then whether the value is

5 calculated or tested. Those seem like the minimum

6 necessary inputs. I haven't given this a

7 considerable amount of thought, but I think those

8 are the minimum necessary elements to determine

9 compliance of a unit.

10 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel from Xylem.

11 Don't even -- the value, you mean PEI CL or PEI

12 VL. So it's replace value with those, right?

13 Isn't that what you're --

14 MS. WIDDER: Value?

15 MR. HANDZEL: The last bullet, whether

16 the value is calculated or tested.

17 MS. WIDDER: Oh, whether the -- oh,

18 yeah. Okay. Got it.

19 MR. HANDZEL: The value you're referring

20 to is PEI CL or P---

21 MS. WIDDER: Yes, yes. Okay. Yep, yep,

22 I got you.
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1 MR. HANDZEL: We got it, but --

2 MS. WIDDER: Yes. We do, but we're

3 trying to be clear for those that are not in this

4 room.

5 MR. HANDZEL: There you go. Sorry I

6 wasn't --

7 MS. WIDDER: Yep. No, no. Understood.

8 And then additional elements that might be

9 necessary, or might be desirable, could be the

10 input energy to the pump at each load point i.

11 That would be the Pin in our equations, our

12 previous equations. These are just sort of ideas.

13 Full impeller diameter. I listed here pump

14 efficiency at each load point i. You could also

15 do pump efficiency in general. That's just --

16 It's something that is available in general about

17 pumps. I don't know if there's other things that

18 you would like to add to this list. Yes, Louis.

19 Or remove from the list.

20 MR. STARR: So for things that are

21 tested, you know, to the test point. So like

22 we're, if it has a -- whether it has controls or
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1 motors, all those points that calculate, whether

2 it's PEI CL or VL. So you'd want your load points

3 at 25, 50, 75, 100 percent for your -- I guess it

4 would -- I'm not sure exactly. But anyway, the

5 points that come out, that resulted that are then

6 used in the calculated -- are used to come up with

7 a number. Or was that 40.6?

8 MS. WIDDER: Right. So, so that's -- I

9 tried -- I tried to capture that in this bullet

10 here, the input energy to the pump at each load

11 point i, which would be the 25, 50, 75, 100, or

12 75, 100, and 110 as applicable.

13 The one question that I think you

14 brought up is whether or not it's more helpful to

15 have the input energy to the pump including, for

16 example, pump, the pump shaft input power, plus

17 losses at each of those points, or just the bare

18 shaft input power as measured per 40.6, and then

19 the loses are the separate calculation?

20 I -- I would recommend, Sarah Widder

21 personally, that it be the input power to the pump

22 system because if it's a tested value and, versus
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1 a calculated value, then it's -- it's not an

2 apples-to-apples comparison, but it'll make it

3 more confusing if you have shaft input power for a

4 calculation, but test, you know -- I think I would

5 recommend that it's input power to the pump as, as

6 certified.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Rob Boteler.

8 MR. BOTELER: Yeah, I just have one, one

9 comment. I have my motor hat on now, pump

10 buddies. But Bullet No. 1, if you -- if you have

11 the individual model numbers are derivatives of

12 your basic model and you have to input those into

13 this database? And that's not how I read it.

14 MS. WIDDER: So DOE will require that we

15 know -- so if you have a, a number of model, you

16 know, product -- oh, sorry.

17 MR. ADIN: Sarah, let me actually

18 clarify that.

19 MS. WIDDER: Yeah.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas --

21 MR. ADIN: Thanks, Doug. It's safer to

22 say that we don't know exactly how we're going to
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1 do it for these products yet. For almost every

2 other product that DOE regulates, we require

3 reporting a basic model number and individual

4 model number with a few exceptions, depending on

5 the particular implications associated with

6 certifying them. So it's safer to say that we

7 really -- like Ashley was pointing out yesterday,

8 these are details of the certification and

9 compliance process that we still have yet to think

10 more about and figure out.

11 I mean we're willing, obviously, to take

12 input from you all. But I don't know that we can

13 say for certain this is exactly what we would

14 definitely require. I mean I think without

15 question we can say we'd require reporting of the

16 rating that's required to determine if compliance

17 with the standard. That's obvious. But some of

18 these other things we might still have to think

19 about a little bit.

20 MR. HANDZEL: So just to clarify, Lucas.

21 Mark Handzel from Xylem. So for -- for the pump

22 industry, are individual model numbers, are our
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1 basic model numbers?

2 MR. ADIN: That's -- Okay.

3 MR. HANDZEL: So I mean I don't --

4 that's why you're confusing us saying what are you

5 saying, because they're one in the same for us.

6 MR. ADIN: If they're the same, that

7 makes it simpler for your purposes. It's hard to

8 tell.

9 MS. WIDDER: Then you only list one

10 number.

11 MR. ADIN: Yeah.

12 MR. BARBOUR: Bob Barbour from TACO.

13 Sarah, when we spoke earlier, you had indicated

14 that the full impeller trim pump would be

15 considered the basic model number. Are you now

16 telling us that the individual model numbers that

17 you refer to here are trimmed wheels underneath

18 that?

19 MR. ADIN: Let her answer the question.

20 MS. WIDDER: I think -- I think that's

21 something that we would have to consider, but my

22 general understanding is no.
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1 MR. BARBOUR: Then what do you mean by

2 individual model number?

3 MS. WIDDER: I'll give an example

4 for a different piece of equipment that might

5 help. Ashley tried to address this yesterday I

6 think a little bit with like different colors of

7 things or in the case of like refrigeration,

8 commercial refrigeration, sometimes manufacturers

9 will offer a number of different lighting packages

10 and then certify them all under the same basic

11 model, which has the most lighting, but if they

12 sold it with less lighting, that would -- those

13 would be different individual model numbers. So

14 they would have different types of lights that are

15 available. Or something like that.

16 MR. ADIN: Can I make a suggestion?

17 MS. WIDDER: Yeah.

18 MR. ADIN: Since DOE, like we talked

19 about, is going to address all of this through a

20 separate rulemaking process, we'll have to make a

21 specific concrete proposal on how this will work.

22 So at that point you'll have something you can
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1 comment on and give us very distinct feedback on

2 whether it's going to work. I mean I think, at

3 least from my point of view, it's premature to say

4 this is definitely what we want or this is what

5 will work for us because we still have some

6 thinking to do about it, at least, you know, for

7 DOE's side.

8 MS. WIDDER: I think the one thing I

9 will say just real quickly, I deleted the whole

10 individual model number, basic model thing. I

11 think we do want to capture in some way a

12 crosswalk between the nameplate, the information

13 that was on the nameplate that we recommended,

14 which was model number, and this database. So

15 whatever we call that, I think that wants to be

16 there. Model number. Okay. We'll just list that

17 for now in terms of the Working Group

18 recommendation.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Mark's not ready. Go

20 ahead, Charlie.

21 MR. CAPPELLINO: Charlie Cappellino. How

22 about equipment class? It may be important to be
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1 able --

2 MR. HANDZEL: Yeah, that's exactly where

3 I was, was headed.

4 MR. CAPPELLINO: Correlate back to --

5 MR. ADIN: So to that point -- this

6 is Lucas. Sorry. I might be able to -- I'm

7 sorry, Mark. I didn't mean to -- but there's

8 certain basic things that we require on any

9 certification report. And again, I don't -- I

10 can't think of any particular reason why it would

11 be different here. We'll address it through the

12 rulemaking, but things like manufacturer name,

13 equipment class, basic information about the

14 manufacturer and the product being certified. So

15 it's kind of a standard menu of items that would

16 be included here as well.

17 MR. HANDZEL: Obviously we -- Mark

18 Handzel from Xylem. We've supposed tremendous

19 amounts of data on our -- we describe what

20 equipment class it is, which is end-suction frame21 mount, end-suction closed-coupled, which, you

22 know. Then we have our models, okay?
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1 So I agree that's a good addition that

2 Charlie just suggested. Manufacturer's name, we

3 all -- in that database we all put our

4 manufacturer's name. You know, so I think we're,

5 we're pretty close on necessary elements. The

6 only thing I would suggest is I think full

7 impeller diameter needs to be as part of necessary

8 elements, not an additional element.

9 MS. WIDDER: Okay.

10 MR. HANDZEL: Because we said that

11 that is a descriptive, you know, feature of, you

12 know, that PEI value. So I would just suggest

13 that could, add it.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

15 MR. HANDZEL: I'm good.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg Towsley.

17 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg Towsley, Grundfos.

18 Also on the speed, I think you used the term

19 earlier rated speed.

20 MR. MAUER: This is Joanna. I think the

21 speed actually would be covered in the equipment

22 class I don't know that it --
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1 MS. WIDDER: Equipment class is like

2 end-suction closed-coupled, end-suction frame3 mounted, inline, and then the speeds --

4 MR. ADIN: Well, there are --

5 MS. WILLIAMS: Technically since a

6 little different standards, there will be

7 different equipment class. Yeah.

8 MR. HUBER: That's right.

9 MS. WIDDER: Right, with the nominal

10 - - although, we may want, as Greg noted, the

11 speed at which the equipment is tested, which

12 would be the rated speed versus the nominal speed.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg.

14 MS. WIDDER: And so this would be

15 the, the rated or tested speed.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg.

17 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg Towsley, Grundfos. I

18 think in the calculator or somewhere within the

19 calculations of the metric we've talked about, you

20 have to put in the speed that you're testing at in

21 there.

22 MS. WIDDER: Right. And correct to
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1 -- and correct to the nominal, yep.

2 MR. TOWSLEY: Right.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas a while back

4 now suggested that maybe what approach would be --

5 however much you want to do with this listing that

6 Sarah has provided, that specifically, you have

7 another opportunity -- go ahead.

8 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel from

9 Xylem. So this is another recommendation that I

10 think the Working Group would like to make to

11 ASRAC and DOE that they can -- we recommend these

12 things be included in the certification report

13 database.

14 MS. WIDDER: And in particular, I

15 would maybe focus more on the additional elements.

16 Like Lucas mentioned, there's like a menu of, of

17 things that DOE will need to just know information

18 about the pump so that they can determine

19 compliance. And so I would just focus on the

20 things that seem maybe a little but more

21 unnecessary, but beneficial, that we wouldn't do

22 otherwise.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas.

2 MR. ADIN: I --

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Meg, Meg Waltner.

4 MS. WALTNER: Yeah. So I just -- sort

5 of on the way it's presented with the necessary

6 and additional elements, I wouldn't want it to

7 seem that this Working Group's recommendation or

8 that the additional elements were somehow less

9 important to be included from other elements. So

10 maybe we could just say data to be included and

11 have the list and what we're recommending.

12 MS. WIDDER: Yep. Okay.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Louis.

14 MR. STARR: The other thing is, is I

15 notice you put it on the calculator. You have the

16 input energy, pump speed at each load point. Could

17 the same thing be for the calculated one so that

18 you know how they actually calculated their PEI,

19 or is that going to be evident? In other words,

20 load, lots, numbers to use them for the -- the

21 numbers are actually inputting into the

22 calculation.
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1 MS. WIDDER: Into the calculator.

2 MR. STARR: Right.

3 MS. WIDDER: Okay. So in addition

4 to the input energy to the pump, for calculate --

5 for the calculated value, the shaft horsepower at

6 each load point?

7 MR. STARR: I'm just trying to do -- if

8 you have a tested one, you're getting the tested

9 data that goes in to figure it out.

10 MS. WIDDER: Right.

11 MS. STARR: So on the calculated one,

12 I'd just like the numbers, too, to know --

13 MS. WIDDER: Right. So it would the

14 same. So what I was trying to say before, but not

15 doing a very good job, was I think it would be

16 most straightforward and clear for everyone using

17 the data if we have the same data available for

18 tested versus calculated. And so it just means

19 that the same data would be available, but for the

20 calculated case, it would be tested, shaft input

21 power plus motor loss at that point. Yeah. Okay.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Joanna.
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1 MS. MAUER: Just a question for other

2 folks. Having pressure at the different load

3 points useful? Well, flow and head at BEP. So I

4 guess my question is, is it useful to have at each

5 load point so you can calculate flow, right?

6 MS. WIDDER: Right.

7 MS. MAUER: And you calculate flow at

8 those points, is it helpful to have --

9 MS. WILLIAMS: You can calculate the

10 head too with the assumed system curve, right?

11 MS. WIDDER: But not for a constant

12 load.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber.

14 MS. WIDDER: Like you can get the

15 pump curve. You could calculate it for the system

16 curve, the variable load. I mean honestly if you

17 need that level of detail, you might as well get a

18 pump curve probably. But --

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis, please.

20 MR. STARR: Wouldn't DOE first need the

21 pump curve to verify the different formats, or not

22 really?
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1 MS. WIDDER: I think, you know, it's

2 not clear what DOE will do in terms of

3 enforcement, but the DOE test procedure requires

4 each pump be tested per 40.6 to determine the

5 curve. So that might be an appropriate place to

6 start.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: So I would note that

8 we keep making contributions and enhancements to

9 this list. Mark Handzel.

10 MR. HANDZEL: From a -- going back

11 to some of the things I brought up yesterday. We

12 talked about just trying to keep this list more to

13 a minimum so it's not an onerous task for the

14 manufacturers to keep it up to date. But I would

15 -- I would just suggest the last two bullets be

16 deleted. You know, they're, they're not needed.

17 They're part of the calculation that gets us to

18 PEI values, but I don't see a reason why we have

19 to put them in the database.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: So those two are

21 input energy to the pump at each load point and

22 pump efficiency at each load point.
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1 MR. HANDZEL: And all that -- you

2 know, the pump efficiency at each load point,

3 again, that's performance curve data. It's

4 available on the performance curve. You know, so

5 why is it needed? And the input energy, I don't -

6 - I don't know why any -- you know, what would

7 anybody do with the input energy if we were

8 required to put it on, in the database? It's

9 again part of the calculation, but what's somebody

10 going to do with it?

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis Starr.

12 MR. STARR: So other points that are

13 different operating points. So what's assumed in

14 the calculator. So custom utility programs.

15 MR. HANDZEL: Yeah, but we're not

16 asking any -- I mean no one's going to go to this

17 database to come up with our performance data.

18 They're going to go look at our curve. I mean so

19 -- and I think your, your metric for your rebate

20 purposes is going to be based on the PEI value,

21 you know, with gold, silver, platinum levels type

22 thing. So again, don't, don't overburden us if
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1 possible.

2 MR. STARR: Well, that's one way of

3 doing it, but the custom programs would be more

4 detailed. In other words, less customer, less the

5 rebates. You know, they just assume very

6 conservative numbers.

7 And so the other part, though, just to

8 kind of understand the operation of the equipment

9 in general and where there might be opportunities

10 to design utility programs too. So having that

11 information kind of gets you a lot of information

12 about -- and keep in mind, there's more than one

13 utility. There's 4,000. So each one of them does

14 it a little differently.

15 And so the information that they have is

16 how they design their utility programs. But the

17 other part is to understand how they're coming up

18 with those values. Those were the same values

19 that DOE will need to know in order to calculate

20 compliance. They'll have to know those, that

21 information. I mean that's what you're all going

22 back and doing right now in theory. Well, except
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1 it's calculated.

2 MR. HANDZEL: So Mark Handzel from

3 Xylem. I thought this was more of what's in the

4 database. This wasn't meant to be a calculator,

5 these -- you know, as Sarah said, the calculator

6 was just there for our convenience, to make it

7 easy for us to, to come up with these values, not

8 to, you know -- I guess that's where I'm

9 struggling. You know, Louis, how are you -- how

10 is, you know, an energy utility going to use our

11 25 or our 75 percent load efficiency? I just

12 don't see them doing it.

13 MR. STARR: Well, if their load most of

14 the time runs at 25 and 50 percent instead of, you

15 know, an equally weighted average time, that,

16 that's how you would have a custom program. So

17 you could actually use some of the input

18 information on how, how the -- especially on our

19 real water to wire test, you could actually get

20 some, dial in some actual energy savings based on

21 some real, real world information that would be

22 helpful, and you could stick that into a
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1 calculator that would be a DEM calculator. I

2 mean, but those --

3 MR. HANDZEL: I mean you could come

4 up with 10,000 scenarios, but I just got to

5 question if someone's really going to do that. I

6 just, you know, why burden us to put all that

7 stuff in when the chances of it being used are

8 very minimal?

9 MR. STARR: Well, maybe Tom can talk

10 about it, but they at the power council has a VFD

11 calculator for giving rebates on VFDs. And you

12 put in your load profile and so the part of your

13 bins of hours that you have and then how much

14 power you're using at those bins. And that's what

15 that information would provide. So it has a lot

16 of opportunity. To me, it's an opportunity for

17 everybody. It's an opportunity for us to give you

18 a rebate and also an opportunity for you to get a

19 rebate.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Meg Waltner.

21 MS. WALTNER: Question to Louis and Tom.

22 Do you guys need this data to be certified by, to
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1 DOE in order to use it in your programs? For

2 instance, so Mark, I hear you saying this data is

3 in our curves. Why can't you just look there? But

4 is what you guys really need, data that's

5 certified to DOE and that's what, you know, the

6 PUCs will --

7 MR. ECKMAN: Well, it depends on how

8 picky the regulators are. In California I suspect

9 they're picky enough to say, yeah, we'd really

10 trust it if it had been certified to DOE rather

11 than just informally sent to us via e-mail or

12 something so.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: That was Tom Eckman.

14 MR. ECKMAN: But that's an important

15 aspect. But I think, as Louis points out, to the

16 extent that the data that's available there can be

17 used to compute savings or estimate savings, then

18 it's useful to have in a public domain for us to

19 take advantage of 'cause we can download the

20 dataset and use that as it gets updated, use that

21 to determine the magnitude of the savings, which

22 turn into the magnitude of the money.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary Fernstrom.

2 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. A decade

3 ago we used manufacturer specifications. These

4 days, increasingly the PUC is wanting us to use

5 creditable data that has been reported. I'm not -

6 - I'm sorry. I'm not suggesting that manufacturer

7 data is not creditable.

8 MR. ECKMAN: Al said the marketing guys

9 are going to get ahold of this. So we got to be

10 careful.

11 MR. FERNSTROM: Data that has been

12 reported to some government entity for which the

13 reporter is responsible for its correctness.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. What do you want

15 to do with this list? You want to modify it? You

16 want to leave it intact? Louis, Louis Starr.

17 MR. STARR: You know, if you think about

18 this, the other aspect of it is, is for other pump

19 guys and other manufacturers, don't you want to

20 know what you're competition's saying that the

21 performance is to see whether you think those

22 numbers are realistic? And if a pump manufacturer
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1 out there is not actually testing anything, he's

2 doing it all calculated, wouldn't you want to know

3 how he's coming up with these numbers? Because

4 it's not usually DOE goes out and chases after

5 them that they're going to catch them. There's no

6 forum. So this is a way for you to actually see

7 if you really trust your other people that are

8 maybe not aboveboard.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Joanna.

10 MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer. So I just

11 wanted to -- it's that bullet point, input energy

12 to the pump at each load point that I've kind of

13 been referring to this whole time in terms of

14 additional information that I think would be

15 useful to utility programs. And I defer to Tom

16 and Gary, but I think from what I've heard from

17 them, it would be useful to utilities to know

18 power. You know, not just the PEI, but what the

19 power consumption is at different load points that

20 are, you know, that you will be measuring and will

21 be part of the PEI calculation.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber.
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1 MR. HUBER: Well, I don't really think

2 you need both. You got pump efficiency at each

3 load. Then you've got input power at each load.

4 So I don't think you need both. I mean you

5 certainly don't need both.

6 MS. WIDDER: This is just a preliminary

7 list.

8 MR. HUBER: So --

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Sarah, which one would be

10 most descriptive?

11 MS. WIDDER: I think input energy to the

12 pump at each load point would be more appropriate.

13 It would be easier to use in terms of calculating

14 energy use and savings, and it's more directly

15 related to the PEI.

16 MR. FERNSTROM: This -- this is Gary. So

17 Sarah, wouldn't the term of art, be input power,

18 energy as a function of time?

19 MS. WIDDER: Okay. Yes.

20 MR. FERNSTROM: Thank you. It really

21 frustrates me that the Department of Energy gets

22 these two things mixed up all the time.
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1 MS. WIDDER: I will remind you that I

2 made this list over lunch, Gary.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Mark Handzel.

4 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel from Xylem.

5 So I think, you know, that's a great compromise. I

6 think we can be okay with it. But I want to come

7 back to, you know, Sarah, you, you I think made

8 the comment that -- well, you were kind of

9 ambivalent about impeller trims. And I just again

10 want to be clear that from our perspective, we're

11 not dealing with trims. We're doing model numbers

12 with full impeller diameters and that's all we're

13 going to put in the database.

14 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. I didn't mean to

15 indicate that I was ambivalent about that. The

16 certification will be based on the full runner

17 impeller, and that diameter as we've noted here

18 would be reported along with all the other

19 relevant certification information.

20 MR. HANDZEL: All right. Thank you.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Did you capture the last

22 endorsement that -- which is input power to the
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1 pump at each load point, which -- did you hear

2 her? She thought that would be most, the most

3 descriptive. I have several individuals over here

4 nodding their heads in agreement. Charlie

5 Cappellino.

6 MR. CAPPELLINO: So I believe we have

7 some multistage product that's being regulated? So

8 is --

9 MS. WIDDER: If you had a multistage

10 motor. Oh, multistage pump, yes.

11 MR. CAPPELLINO: Multistage pump.

12 MS. WIDDER: Yeah.

13 MR. CAPPELLINO: So is the number

14 stages, is that to be defined here or is that to

15 be defined in the test procedure itself, numbers?

16 MS. WIDDER: Yep. That's --

17 MR. ADIN: Normally if there's a

18 particular data element that's only applicable to

19 one type of product, then that's how you would

20 specify it. And, right. That's how we do it for

21 other products, if you're going to do it that way.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you, Lucas.
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1 MS. WILLIAMS: This is -- I'm not no --

2 I mean I think we had previously discussed that

3 for testing and rating there would just be a

4 single, like a three or nine stage configuration

5 that was used. I think we -- yeah. We never --

6 I'm just looking through the summary and it's not

7 actually specified in anything that you guys have

8 voted on. So I don't know if you want to -- I

9 don't see it. So I just wanted to note that in

10 case you wanted to make a recommendation, but it's

11 not necessary. We can --

12 MS. WIDDER: Well, and the other thing

13 given that, is since the certification would be

14 based on a fixed number of stages, it may be

15 duplicative to also report it in the certification

16 database. Well, it certainly will be defined in

17 the test procedure.

18 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah, I mean there is an

19 exception I think in the EU; whereas if you didn't

20 offer a model with that number of stages, you had

21 to report with the next fewer or something. So

22 maybe it is still relevant in the case that we
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1 need to make some sort of clause like that. I'm

2 not sure.

3 MS. WIDDER: Oh, yeah. Mm-hm.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Where are we with this

5 list? I thought we -- Mark, you, it looks like

6 you're doing a consultation.

7 MR. HANDZEL: Well, Greg and I are just

8 talking about, as the two primary guys here who

9 make those two products that we're talking about.

10 And so instead of saying number of stages, you

11 know, we'd like to specify the stages, but we --

12 it's going to have to be here and somewhere else

13 too because we kind of missed that in the, in the

14 votes that we did yesterday where we, you know,

15 basically set the PER value. We should have set

16 it for that number of stages for these two

17 products as well. So we may need to do some

18 amending of what we voted on yesterday.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: So do you know where that

20 -- so that's in the PEI -- go ahead, Greg.

21 MR. TOWSLEY: Yeah, Greg Towsley,

22 Grundfos. Yeah, I don't know that we could have
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1 done anything before. Now is the time. Since we

2 have the metric approved and agreed upon, now is

3 the time, I think. Anyway, but it has to be

4 separate from the labeling discussion we have. So

5 I think what Sarah's doing here is the right

6 thing. But, but -- yeah. But the label still has

7 number of stages on there.

8 MS. WIDDER: Yes.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: I'm going to make a note

10 about that and then see if we can come to closure.

11 Okay.

12 MS. WIDDER: Is it the same number of

13 stages? What are we --

14 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah, that's my

15 understanding. I can look it up real quick if you

16 want.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Someone -- so we've --

18 while Alison's looking this up, someone explain

19 for the record what we're doing with, with this

20 stage stuff. I didn't follow that. Mark Handzel.

21 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel from Xylem.

22 So these particular pumps are made with -- you can
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1 add impellers to them so that one impeller's

2 pumping into another one. So they're staged

3 pumps.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Oh.

5 MR. HANDZEL: Okay? So they're, they're

6 a variation of all the other pumps that are single

7 stage pumps. So we basically followed the EU

8 process where they specified a number of stages

9 for reporting data and doing the analysis, okay?

10 So that's all we're wanting to do, is clarify in

11 our recommendation that we're, you know, going

12 forward, that's the same thing we want to do with

13 the, the way the rule is structured and the way

14 the data, database is structured.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

16 MR. HANDZEL: Okay? So we -- so the

17 number of stages for those two models is fixed.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: And in the PER, PEI --

19 MR. HANDZEL: We've reported based on

20 the fixed number of stages, regardless of the

21 number of stages that are purchased by a customer.

22 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah. So I think he
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1 has it right. It would be part of the

2 certification test procedure more. So when you're

3 rating those pumps, the model you're rating would

4 be --

5 MS. WIDDER: Right. And will you read

6 me the caveat words?

7 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah, so. And also to

8 confirm is, as you have it, three stage for RSV

9 and nine stages for submersible, the caveat the EU

10 uses is if this number of stages is not offered

11 within a specific product range, the next higher

12 number of stages is to be chosen for testing.

13 MR. HANDZEL: And what were the stage

14 counts? Was it three --

15 MS. WILLIAMS: It's three and nine.

16 MR. HANDZEL: Three and nine?

17 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah.

18 MR. HANDZEL: Okay.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary Fernstrom.

20 MR. FERNSTROM: So this -- this is Gary.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary, but before, let's

22 let Al follow on.
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1 MR. HUBER: I wanted to ask you, and I

2 didn't participate in that part because we don't

3 make that pump, but did we -- what did you ask for

4 when we reported it back?

5 MS. WILLIAMS: We asked for these.

6 MR. HUBER: Three and nine.

7 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah.

8 MR. HUBER: Well, then that's what we

9 want to do.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary, please.

11 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay. So this is Gary.

12 This begs the same kind of question I had about

13 impeller trimming. What energy efficiency

14 performance consequence does adding or removing

15 stages from these fixed values have?

16 MR. HANDZEL: So every stage you add

17 adds additional horsepower requirement, okay,

18 because it's another impeller, you know, needing

19 energy to push water.

20 MR. FERNSTROM: And vice versa.

21 MR. HANDZEL: And vice versa, right.

22 MR. FERNSTROM: How does that
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1 affect the efficiency? In other words, I'm going

2 to get some efficiency number based on three and

3 nine stages, but --

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg Case.

5 MR. CASE: Okay. So with these, these

6 pumps, there's some fixed losses in the inlet and

7 in the column. So generally the efficiency goes

8 up. If you had one stage, your efficiency might

9 be lower. If you got up to three stages, the

10 efficiency would level off and stabilize for

11 multiple stages after that. And it could be, you

12 know, for some vertical turbine submersibles, they

13 could be multiple stages before you got to that

14 efficiency level.

15 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay. Thank you, Greg.

16 You didn't cover this in the class that I took

17 from you.

18 MR. HANDZEL: And Gary -- Mark Handzel

19 from Xylem. You know, it's a generalization that

20 most of our customers don't worry about. Okay? As

21 long as they know that they have the right size

22 motor to cover all the impellers they're going to
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1 put on that shaft, they're good.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Interesting. Okay. Read

3 what you've got there, Sarah.

4 MS. WIDDER: Certification for RSV and

5 VTS pumps shall be based on testing with

6 the following number of stages: RSV - 3 stages,

7 VTS - 9 stages, unless a model is not available

8 with that specific number of stages in the given

9 scope, in which case the model will be tested and

10 certified with the next higher number of stages.

11 Which is consistent --

12 MR. BROOKMAN: New language?

13 MS. WIDDER: Yes. Well, pretty close.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah.

15 MS. WIDDER: Paraphrased a bit.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Doug Potts.

17 MR. POTTS: Doug Potts. I know we

18 talked about this before. It was just a couple

19 months ago. So I'm trying to remember. Is there

20 a possibility of a loophole here where if you're

21 selling a pump with two stages, that you could

22 sell to, you know, the two stages that have not
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1 been certified, or is it -- or are we stating

2 somewhere that this pump model, we tested it at

3 three stages, it's certified at three stages, so

4 the bowls that we're selling, whether it's two,

5 four, five stages, are also from that certified

6 model?

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Mark Handzel.

8 MR. POTTS: Does that need to be

9 clarified?

10 MR. HANDZEL: Because we're going to

11 have to report a model. The bowls will be

12 specific to that model. Yeah. So it's, it's -- I

13 don't think there's a loophole. Okay?

14 MR. HUBER: Al Huber. It's the same

15 concept as trimming, basically.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Do you wish to --

17 this is a subordinate slide. The previous slide,

18 did we vote on that?

19 MS. WIDDER: No, but they're unrelated.

20 So let's stay here for a moment.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Do you think that

22 we've covered this conceptually?
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1 MS. WIDDER: I think so. I think we

2 should vote on it if there's a consensus.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So the question

4 is, do you wish to send -- this is a

5 recommendation -- to ASRAC from the Working Group?

6 I see nods generally. Okay. So let's take an

7 actual vote. All those in favor of accepting the

8 language which Sarah just read, please signify by

9 raising your hands. So as I look around the room,

10 every single member has voted yes. And that means

11 that that's 14 yeses, and one abstention, and one

12 absent. Let's just go by stages.

13 MS. WIDDER: Okay. So now we can return

14 to the certification.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah.

16 MS. WIDDER: Reports and database. And

17 we will request the number of stages because of

18 that, except for pumps that don't, aren't offered

19 in a three or nine stage configuration.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Mark Handzel.

21 MR. HANDZEL: So -- Mark Handzel from

22 Xylem. So Sarah, do we want to -- instead of
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1 saying number of stages, do we want to state the

2 same thing we did on the previous one, what those

3 number of stages are for the VTS and the RSV? I

4 mean --

5 MS. WIDDER: In the certification

6 report?

7 MR. HANDZEL: Well, in the database and

8 in the certification report. Yeah, I think so.

9 Yeah, we don't want to make it -- right. We don't

10 want them to think it's an option. It has to

11 still follow the logic we just defined in the

12 previous slide.

13 MS. WIDDER: Okay. All right. I will

14 include that, that note here. Like this. How's

15 the best way to capture this? How about like

16 this?

17 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg Towsley, Grundfos.

18 Number of stages tested?

19 MS. WIDDER: Well, does that number of

20 stages tested, does that really resolve the issue

21 that Mark was bringing up about they'll still be

22 interpretation of flexibility? I mean I don't
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1 know. Manufacturers are filling this out. So --

2 MS. WILLIAMS: I mean the requirements

3 here -- the database is not really requirements.

4 It's just --

5 MS. WIDDER: No, there's a full test

6 procedure.

7 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah, like the number of

8 stages will be specific elsewhere and this is just

9 you reporting. So presumably if there were

10 verification, DOE would check to see if you

11 reported the appropriate number of stages.

12 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel from Xylem.

13 So we just went through this whole discussion of

14 why all the advocates wanted input power on there.

15 So if someone's going to be looking at this thing

16 trying to use it for data, they got to know that.

17 That's my only point, right? So I would think

18 that side of the table would want it on there. So

19 --

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas.

21 MS. WILLIAMS: I wasn't suggesting

22 taking out stating what number it is. I was just
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1 questioning whether we needed the supplemental in

2 text.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg Case.

4 MR. TOWSLEY: I believe you do need it

5 because you're going to get head values that may

6 not make any sense at all. And if you don't know

7 what number of stages they reported and they

8 report some different number of stages, you're

9 going to get some really strange numbers. We did

10 that when we were, when we were trying to go

11 through this data. We got all kinds of strange

12 numbers reported.

13 MS. WILLIAMS: So I absolutely agree you

14 should have the number of stages. Sorry. I was

15 just wondering whether that sub-bullet was needed.

16 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. Everyone, we're just

17 questioning. I think everyone agrees that we

18 should have numbers of stages tested and it will

19 be three or nine in most cases. And the question

20 is, do we need this additional clarification to

21 remind folks that it's three or nine in most

22 cases? Or will that -- is it sufficient to have
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1 that information in the test procedure? Okay.

2 Great.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: So I heard one mumble

4 test procedure. That is to say, that would be

5 sufficient. Are we all comfortable with that? I'm

6 seeing a lot of heads saying yes. Yes, Greg? Tom

7 says list the number of stages that are tested.

8 MR. CASE: I would -- I would agree with

9 that, that --

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

11 MR. CASE: There's going to be -- there

12 was a lot of confusion on this every time we did a

13 survey. I mean it, we got numbers that made no

14 sense until we found out how many stages were

15 actually tested.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Okay. Okay. So

17 then I thought we were about to close on this. Are

18 you ready? I thought the top items in the list

19 were largely not controversial and we've gone

20 through them, many of which are required by DOE.

21 They're the standard form of things.

22 And then this last one here, input power
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1 to the pump at each load point, I thought that was

2 a descriptor that the group had arrived at

3 thinking was sensible and kind of hit a middle

4 point. That's what -- that's my interpretation.

5 This side of the room seemed like they were

6 comfortable with that. So I'm wondering if we're

7 now comfortable --

8 MR. HANDZEL: Still not include it, but

9 yeah, if people feel strongly. We have it. We

10 can put it in if they want it.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. I thought -- I

12 thought they made their case for why they wanted

13 to have it and how it would be useful to utility

14 programs. So are we ready to -- ready to call the

15 question on this one? Yes? Okay. All those --

16 MR. HANDZEL: I'm sorry. But shouldn't

17 we -- so do we want to change the heading on this

18 one again, Sarah, just to say that, you know,

19 yeah, this is a recommendation again?

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. Thank you, Mark.

21 And these its -- since we've met --

22 since we've edited them significantly, are, this
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1 slide is recommended data to be included in the

2 certification report/database and they include the

3 following bullets: Manufacturer name; model

4 number(s); equipment class PEI, subscript CL, PEI

5 VL, as applicable; BEP flow rate and head rated

6 speed; number of stages tested, full impeller

7 diameter; whether the PEI CL or PEI VL is

8 calculated or tested; and finally, input power to

9 the pump at each load point. Okay.

10 All those in favor of accepting this as

11 a recommendation from the Working Group to ASRAC,

12 please signify by raising your hand. So as I look

13 around the room, every single member -- we have

14 one person who did not vote for --

15 MR. ADIN: Abstain.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas Adin abstains. So

17 that's 13 yeses, 2 abstentions, and 1 absent.

18 Okay. What else? Alison, you've, you've been

19 making changes to the term sheet as we've been

20 going along here?

21 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. It's all in there.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: It's all in there?
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1 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: So I'm -- I think the

3 term sheets -- go ahead, Meg. The term sheet is

4 substantive and while we've gone over all this

5 ground in considerable detail, over the span of

6 now six plus meetings, I want to make sure we're

7 fresh when we take it up. I don't want tired eyes

8 and droopiness affecting our ability to seriously

9 consider what you're going to recommend. So I'm

10 going to suggest we don't do that now. It's 4,

11 almost 4:40. And, but maybe there's something

12 else we can do. Meg Waltner?

13 MS. WALTNER: Yes. There is one thing

14 on the term sheet that I thought would be useful

15 to go over today.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Mm-hm.

17 MS. WALTNER: And that was the sort of

18 schedule and language around the follow-on

19 rulemakings for circulators and pool pumps.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Uh-huh.

21 MS. WALTNER: The language is a little

22 unclear in the way it's written in the term sheet
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1 currently, and I think not necessarily consistent

2 with the conversations we had earlier.

3 Specifically we say that we want a second

4 negotiation with the term sheet by the end of this

5 year and it sounds like we've discussed having

6 sort of a private sidebar negotiation with a

7 different anticipated --

8 MR. BROOKMAN: And let me note what --

9 the version you have there was before we had that

10 conversation.

11 MS. WILLIAMS: It was strictly off the

12 slides from the original vote.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Correct.

14 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah. You guys can

15 certainly modify it and we'll document it.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: So do you understand the

17 sequence here?

18 MS. WALTNER: I do, and my question -- I

19 mean have you modified that?

20 MS. WILLIAMS: No, no, no.

21 MS. WALTNER: Yeah.

22 Ms. MAUER: So I'm just suggesting that
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1 we have a conversation about that today.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: And I've written down

3 some words here, by the way, to accomplish that

4 objection, but Mark, go ahead.

5 MR. HANDZEL: So this group really

6 isn't empowered to speak on behalf of all the

7 circulator manufacturers. So I mean I think we

8 really, you know, we were anticipating having a

9 discussion on this at the Hydraulic Institute

10 Circulator Committee meeting next week.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah.

12 MR. HANDZEL: You know, so I would

13 suggest that we still stick with the verbiage that

14 we agreed upon when we decided to take pool pumps

15 and circulators off of the scope of what we were

16 trying to do here. And just, you know, we outline

17 some other provisions, but I, I'm not comfortable

18 saying the industry fully agrees with them because

19 I'm not representing all the circulator

20 manufacturers. So that's --

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Well, I was thinking

22 that -- I'm not attached to this -- that we could
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1 simply say in discussion a proposed process was

2 put forward. And, because that, then, right? And

3 also the intent. The intent of the members

4 present. Yeah. So, and it would be something

5 like that the -- well, it'd be something like the

6 proposed process was the manufacturers' caucus

7 requested that the energy efficiency advocates'

8 caucus send a proposal, and then the manufacturers

9 caucus and their members, and the circular

10 committee, perhaps, would consider that in their

11 October HI meeting.

12 And then they would respond and maybe

13 there would be a little back and forth or

14 something between those two caucuses, and then

15 with the intention that the HI group would in

16 their February meeting continue to consider that

17 proposal and see where they end up. And, and as

18 necessary or useful, they'd be consulting with DOE

19 or maybe the analysts to make sure they're on

20 track. And that's the guts of the proposal.

21 MR. HANDZEL: The way you described

22 that, that's fine. I just want to make sure that
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1 we weren't committing to go ahead with the process

2 until we had all these exchanges and we made sure

3 that our side was good and your side was good. So

4 I mean it's just we're not committing to do it.

5 We're saying we're going to work together and try

6 to work it out. Right. And we owe you an answer

7 then. And yeah.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Maybe that's

9 all we need, that right there. Meg Waltner.

10 MS. WALTNER: Right. So I agree with

11 all that, but I think part of what we agreed on

12 previously was that we were recommending a follow13 on rulemaking on these products, and I think that

14 we specifically want to say, and it says this, but

15 we're saying a negotiated rulemaking currently in

16 the term sheet. I think we just want to say we

17 recommend that DOE undertake follow-on rulemakings

18 for circulators and pool pumps.

19 And in terms of dates to put to those,

20 my personal recommendation would be a proposal for

21 a NOPR on circulators by July 2015 and initiating

22 a rulemaking for pool pumps by the end of this
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1 year, which could mean an RFI. It could mean a

2 TSD. The form is uncertain.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: That last element I

4 believe is consistent with Tom's -- there could be

5 several mechanisms that indicated that DOE intends

6 to pursue this in some form.

7 MR. HUBER: I think what I had heard

8 earlier was essentially providing a public

9 notification that DOE had an intent to commence

10 rulemaking on those and an RFI may very well be an

11 appropriate way to do that. It just depends on

12 what we think we need to get started.

13 MR. ECKMAN: Yeah.

14 MR. ADIN: A Request for

15 Information.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: So Meg just put a

17 specific proposal on the table. Which, the date

18 for the circulator pumps NOPR was what?

19 MS. WALTNER: July 2015.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: July 2015 for a NOPR

21 for circulator pumps.

22 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel. So
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1 Lucas, I thought you pretty much told us when we

2 did the delay and when we agreed on what we were

3 doing with circulators and pool pumps, that you

4 could not commit to anything until you had

5 guidance from your superiors on, that we were

6 going to pursue, you know, a NOPR. So, so I mean,

7 are you okay with our proposal?

8 MR. ADIN: So, I mean what would

9 probably make us feel more comfortable is I don't

10 necessarily have a problem putting a date in there

11 as long as we acknowledge that it's subject to

12 availability of DOE resources. So at the moment,

13 you know, I don't have a reason to say we

14 definitely couldn't do it, but I want to

15 acknowledge that, you know, we do have resource

16 constraints. So --

17 MR. BROOKMAN: And you're not in a

18 position to --

19 MR. ADIN: We'll do our best. I'm

20 sorry?

21 MR. BROOKMAN: You're not in a

22 position to comment either way.
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1 MR. ADIN: Not at the moment, but,

2 you know, taking into consideration what the group

3 here is recommending, and we can go back to -- I

4 can go back to my side and say, look, this is what

5 the group really wants to do. Let's see what we

6 can do and we'll do our best. I think that's

7 really what we'd be willing to commit to.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah.

9 MS. WILLIAMS: This is Alison. The only

10 thing I wanted to clarify is what's in the term

11 sheet now from the previous vote. Is that it

12 would be an ASRAC-approved negotiation? And it

13 sounds like maybe that is no longer the proposal.

14 So I just wanted to clarify --

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Good point.

16 MS. WILLIAMS: -- what the actual

17 proposal is.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: That's a good point.

19 It's 'cause Meg's suggesting a NOPR by --

20 MS. WALTNER: Right. So I think from

21 the discussion earlier, it sounded like on

22 circulators we don't need an ASRAC, or at least at
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1 this point our thinking is we don't need an ASRAC

2 rulemaking.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: That's also logical

4 if, as was described, that little process back and

5 forth --

6 MR. HANDZEL: If it works.

7 MR. HUBER: If it works and it might not

8 work. So that's, you know. We're assuming it's

9 going to, but we don't know that. So I don't want

10 to base a recommendation with a timetable on

11 something we don't know. We've not seen a

12 proposal from you yet, so we don't know what it

13 says. I mean you could ask for the moon. We

14 don't know.

15 MS. WIDDER: Well, I'll note that

16 the current approval, or the current proposal

17 that's approved right now has a timeline. I mean

18 it says ASRAC negotiation by the end of the year.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Right.

20 MS. WIDDER: And so the group could

21 vote to do any number of things, but I'm with Meg

22 that it seems as though that's not the preferred
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1 path, at least as an initial attempt.

2 MS. WALTNER: And we could always -- we

3 have private discussions and decide we want to

4 come back to a negotiated process, we could always

5 later recommend an ASRAC process. But I think,

6 you know, it doesn't sound like that's what we're

7 recommending currently.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Let me just --

9 MR. HUBER: If we don't need it, we

10 don't need it, but we don't know.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: And I would -- I

12 would add as your mediator that if there are

13 proposals going back and forth, then we might set

14 a world's record for a negotiated rulemaking.

15 Alison, you want to comment?

16 MS. WILLIAMS: I will just comment that,

17 I mean just in terms of timeline, I think if it's

18 not an ASRAC-approved negotiation and we really

19 know specifically what would happen statutorily,

20 but we would not be providing analytical support

21 throughout your discussions back and forth, right,

22 because it wouldn't be an authorized. So I just
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1 wanted to make that clear in terms of timeline,

2 so.

3 MR. ADIN: Yes, I agree with Alison.

4 Thank you for clarifying.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas Adin. Now

6 Joanna.

7 MS. MAUER: So in the past DOE has

8 perhaps more informally provided analytical

9 support to private negotiations. And I know that

10 we would have to perhaps specifically request that

11 for, but it seems like kind of an intermediate

12 option where it's not, certainly not a, not formal

13 like in this process, but something to aid private

14 negotiations.

15 MR. ADIN: So I've never been

16 involved in that personally. So I can't speak to

17 that, but it's something I'm happy to look into.

18 MS. WILLIAMS: And I'll just add. I

19 think sometimes we do post spreadsheets to support

20 people talking. But I mean, the time -- I don't

21 know that the timelines of those are ever

22 guaranteed. They're just sort of like if we
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1 happen to be working on them, we can post them for

2 your use. But I mean, again, we could still

3 check, but that's the only thing I'm aware of that

4 we've done previously.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: So I'd like to propose as

6 we're getting near the end of the day that we

7 defer on this decision, not try to decide this

8 right now, 'cause I think everybody's a little

9 tired.

10 MR. HANDZEL: Yeah, Mark Handzel from - -

11 I think it would be good for us to let us talk

12 about it, but I mean obviously our -- we know we

13 made the agreement. We're good for the agreement.

14 We want to work on it, but we're just concerned

15 about being locked in on dates and NOPRs and those

16 kind of things. So I think, you know, how can we

17 define this better?

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah.

19 MR. HANDZEL: And let's, let's think

20 about that in the morning.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah, so let's think about

22 it. Let's sleep on it. And then tomorrow we'll
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334

1 take it up. Gary, please.

2 MR. FERNSTROM: Well, this is Gary. One

3 last thought. We talked about private negotiation

4 with the idea of expediting the whole thing. If

5 DOE analytical support is a factor in how quickly

6 we can move, you know, maybe we're going to need

7 to take an organizational forum that includes DOE

8 analytical supports so we have that as we go

9 along.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. That's a good

11 point. Okay. We covered a lot of ground today.

12 I'm wondering if there's anything else we should

13 try and cover in the remaining ten minutes because

14 -- Bob Barbour, questions?

15 MR. BARBOUR: Bob Barbour from TACO. You

16 said you were going to talk about sampling sizes?

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Oh.

18 MR. BARBOUR: You never got into that.

19 MS. WILLIAMS: I think we should hold,

20 further the discussion 'til tomorrow, if at all.

21 MS. WIDDER: Yeah, I would prefer

22 not to get into that at this point.
Capital Reporting Company

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335

1 MR. BARBOUR: Make sure --

2 MS. WIDDER: At this -- today is ten - -

3 yeah, okay.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. I said that -- it's

5 on my list for tomorrow, sampling size. Okay. 8

6 a.m., tomorrow, here in this room. We had a real

7 good day and I really appreciate -- I really

8 appreciate all of you doing a really nice job of

9 staying present with some very complicated

10 material, and being good-humored and open to the

11 back and forth and the continual review and

12 openness to other ideas in the room. It's been

13 huge for the success of this working group and

14 you've been very, very successful. And we're

15 coming down the home stretch here. So I hope you

16 have a lovely evening. We'll see you here at 8

17 a.m. and we'll conclude this tomorrow.

18 (WHEREUPON, the meeting was

19 adjourned.)

20

21

22
Capital Reporting Company 

Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-18-2014 

1 CERTIFICATE OF COURT REPORTER 

2 

3 I, CHAZ BENNETT, the reporter before whom the 

4 foregoing hearing was taken, do hereby certify 

5 that the witness whose testimony appears in the 

6 foregoing deposition was duly sworn by me; that 

7 the testimony of said witness was recorded by me 

8 and thereafter reduced to typewriting under my 

9 direction; that said deposition is a true record 

10 of the testimony given by said witness; that I am 

11 neither counsel for, related to, nor employed by 

12 any of the parties to the action in which this 

13 deposition was taken; and, further, that I am not 

14 a relative or employee of any counselor attorney 

15 employed by the parties hereto, nor financially or 

16 otherwise interested in the outcome of this 

17 action. 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

CHAZ BENNETT 

(866) 448 - DEPO 

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 

336 
Capital Reporting Company 

Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-18-2014 

1 CERTIFICATE OF TRANSCRIPTION 

2 

3 I, BENJAMIN GRAHAM, hereby certify that I am not 

4 the Court Reporter who reported the following 

5 proceeding and that I have typed the transcript of 

6 this proceeding using the Court Reporter's notes 

7 and recordings. The foregoing/attached transcript 

8 is a true, correct, and complete transcription of 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

2 2 

said 

Date 

proceeding. 

(866) 448 - DEPO 

www.CapitaIReportingCompany.com © 2012 

3 3 7 
Capital Reporting Company 

Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-18-2014 

1 CERTIFICATE OF TRANSCRIPTION 

2 

3 I, CHERYL LaSELLE, hereby certify that I am not 

4 the Court Reporter who reported the following 

5 proceeding and that I have typed the transcript of 

6 this proceeding using the Court Reporter's notes 

7 and recordings. The foregoing/attached transcript 

8 lS a true, correct, and complete transcription of 

9 said proceeding. 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

Date 

(866) 448 - DEPO 

www.CapitaIReportingCompany.com © 2012 

338 
Capital Reporting Company 

Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-18-2014 

1 CERTIFICATE OF TRANSCRIPTION 

2 

3 I, Penny Knight, hereby certify that I am not the 

4 Court Reporter who reported the following 

5 proceeding and that I have typed the transcript of 

6 this proceeding using the Court Reporter's notes 

7 and recordings. The foregoing/attached transcript 

8 is a true, correct, and complete transcription of 

9 said proceeding. 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

Date 

(866) 448 - DEPO 

www.CapitaIReportingCompany.com © 2012 

339 
Capital Reporting Company 

Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-18-2014 

1 CERTIFICATE OF TRANSCRIPTION 

2 

3 I, Janet Rice, hereby certify that I am not the 

4 Court Reporter who reported the following 

5 proceeding and that I have typed the transcript of 

6 this proceeding using the Court Reporter's notes 

7 and recordings. The foregoing/attached transcript 

8 is a true, correct, and complete transcription of 

9 said proceeding. 

1 0 

11 

12 

13 

1 4 

1 5 

16 

17 

18 

1 9 

20 

21 

22 

Date ~ET RI CE 

ranscriptionist 

(866) 448 - DEPO 

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340 
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237:6 244:18

251:7

axis 27:17,20

aye 277:13

B

Backing 143:12

backup 9:20

badge 79:5

balance 128:2,7

ball 163:20

band 44:5 251:9

bands 44:5

66:14,17 73:5

Barbour 2:6 4:19

157:9 191:21,22

192:6,9

231:11,12 232:1

233:5,11,19,21

234:2,4 285:12

286:1

334:14,15,18

335:1

bare 24:11 35:13

36:12 37:19

38:3,4,8,20,22

42:7,9,10,14,15

45:10 55:9 58:16

60:9 72:2 75:10

78:18 79:16,21

80:17,19 82:2,3

88:22

89:1,8,10,11,13

93:2 118:17

129:17,18,20

130:17 131:3,8

132:2 135:10

197:19 204:14

211:14,17

212:3,22

227:17,18

258:18,21

282:17

barely 219:19

base 66:22 205:12

231:15 235:15

241:4 244:10

256:3 264:5,8

330:10

based 17:3 26:8

27:5 28:1 34:16

35:8,17,22 36:15

37:11,18 38:14

43:4 47:3 49:4

60:18 61:21 62:6

63:5,11 64:1,4

65:5 72:4 74:19

75:20 77:11 90:6

102:19 104:9,12

112:6 113:4,18

117:14

135:8,12,15

146:9 158:20,21

166:3 179:20

184:8,13

204:15,18

219:11 234:6,17

266:6 267:14

269:3 272:21

296:20 298:20

304:16 306:14

309:19 312:2

313:5

baseline 149:9

158:5

basic

232:4,5,8,10,15,

18 233:7,22

235:10,21

236:18

237:14,20

239:3,14

240:4,21

241:2,4,5 242:16

246:2 252:11

255:19,22

265:7,17 266:9

270:11,16

279:20 283:12

284:3 285:1,15

286:10 287:10

288:8,13

basically 41:15

147:15 148:9,10

149:9,14,18,21

156:12 162:10

204:9,21 210:14

219:5 222:22

235:14 278:16

307:15 309:7

314:15

basing 265:7

basis 154:9 159:10

168:6 170:22

203:22 232:15

235:2

beat 106:2

become 56:10

becomes 240:3

250:11

begin 247:2

249:10

beginning 201:18

begs 311:12

behalf 53:3 324:6

believe 102:18

160:17 223:7

305:6 318:4

327:4

believes 8:8 49:16

beneficial 85:17

175:21 200:4

291:21

benefit 32:17

39:19 144:15

148:21 159:13

187:6 189:3

217:5

benefits 115:18

BENJAMIN

337:3,15

BENNETT

336:3,20

BEP 24:19,21

25:1,2,17,18

26:13 27:22

28:3,5,8,12,18

29:9,21 30:1,8

31:3,14,15,16

33:5 34:8 35:20

36:6,16 43:6

59:9 60:13,15

62:18 90:20

91:5,9

92:3,4,7,8,9,10,1

5,16 101:8

108:1,2,4 124:10

125:3 136:13

138:7 177:1

180:10,12

210:19 216:9,16

218:15 233:11
Capital Reporting Company

Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-18-2014

Page 7

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012

279:22 294:3

321:5

Berkeley 3:3

besides 119:12

158:10 230:16

best 8:8 15:3 19:16

21:11 25:19 26:9

29:15 30:13 60:1

91:12 107:11

163:1 176:20

200:14 201:15

241:16 246:6,8

248:1,15 249:5

316:15 328:19

329:6

bet 70:22

Betsy 168:17

170:4

better 30:2 32:19

45:15 48:4 50:10

52:17 54:2,6

57:4,10 70:20

76:20 84:20

85:21 93:18

95:10 108:16

123:15 125:8

132:19 148:7

150:2 157:20

227:10 230:12

245:10 251:19

261:16 279:10

333:17

beyond 54:21

236:19

bias 66:15 218:6

biased 32:19

bifurcation 279:14

bigger 192:7

bin 60:16 65:5

73:7

bins 68:4,21 77:22

299:13,14

bit 13:12 26:11

30:2 33:7,9

35:1,12,18 37:21

50:14 54:2,10

61:16 68:16

89:10 92:3

116:8,10

118:7,18,20

126:19,20 140:6

154:6 156:3

161:6 182:3

192:20 259:22

284:19 286:6

313:15

blank 262:2

blue 26:8 31:8

35:12,16,17

36:19 37:1,5

61:6 64:4 91:13

Bob 4:19 95:16

157:8,9

158:17,21

191:21,22

192:11

231:11,12

233:4,5,20 236:1

285:12

334:14,15

Bob's 236:15

BOOKMAN

139:15

Boteler 2:7 5:3

43:16,20 44:2,8

53:1,2 73:12,21

98:4,5 104:21,22

105:11,17

106:9,13

188:16,17

283:7,8

bottom 27:15 63:3

68:13 178:19

bought 187:21

bound 142:15

bounds 69:4,6

bowls 314:4,11

box 111:4

brake 35:13 60:12

break 79:3 199:16

202:8,10

203:1,9,14,19

274:9

breakthrough 6:6

brief 193:1

briefly 193:2

199:16 278:12

bring 61:20

175:15 186:5

bringing 316:21

broad 110:2 146:9

151:2 161:21

162:5

broadly 146:10

162:2

broke 64:15

BROOKMAN 2:2

4:2 5:17 6:16,21

9:12 10:15

11:3,10,17 12:6

13:5 14:6,13,16

15:4 18:14

19:9,21 20:1,20

21:19

23:10,13,18

24:1,5,8

27:4,10,21 30:18

31:17 32:11

33:16,21 40:18

48:22 49:20

51:4,11 53:1,13

54:11 56:7,14

71:4 75:12 76:7

77:2 78:14,16

79:1,11 85:22

86:2,17 87:6,13

88:1,4,14,17

96:21 98:4,15

101:6 102:16

103:4,14

104:4,21 105:19

112:10 115:9

120:17

125:12,14,16

127:14

128:11,18

133:17

134:6,9,16 135:2

138:1

140:9,12,21

141:2,6,9

142:10,13,17,21

143:2,6,12

144:18 145:7,14

146:20 149:1

150:21

151:4,17,22

152:3 153:2,6

154:1,8,11,20

156:10,15 157:8

158:11 159:16

160:2,10 161:6

162:1 163:12

164:11,15,19,21

165:16

166:12,17

169:14,16,18

170:15

171:6,9,19

172:4,9,18,21

173:1 174:4

175:12,14,17

177:6 181:1,4

182:8 183:22

186:9,19 188:16

189:5 190:5
Capital Reporting Company

Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-18-2014

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191:4,6,9,21

192:16,22

194:9,21

195:7,19

197:7,11 199:14

202:9,17 203:6

205:13,19,22

206:4,9,11,15

208:5,15 209:20

210:6 211:19

212:10,12,14

213:9,16,22

214:3,6 215:17

216:5 217:16

218:21 219:3

220:3 221:3

222:16 223:6,20

224:10,12,14,18,

20,22 225:18

226:2,13,22

227:20 228:4

229:8,11 230:20

231:11 232:7,16

233:1,4 234:20

235:4,7,11

237:12 240:11

241:10

242:16,19

245:19

246:2,12,14

250:5,8,20

251:21

252:9,11,16,19

255:1,9

256:17,19

257:1,8

258:6,9,14

259:14,17

262:18 263:22

265:11

266:10,12

267:4,9 270:2,21

271:3,5,7,15

272:3,5,7,10,12,

19 273:7,11,19

274:2,4,8,12,16,

22 275:13,18,20

276:7 277:6,17

278:1,6,9 279:10

283:7,20 287:19

289:14,16

290:13,16 291:3

292:1,3,13

293:22

294:13,19

295:7,20 296:11

299:20 300:13

301:1,14

302:9,22 303:9

304:3,21 305:22

307:4,19

308:9,17

309:4,15,18

310:19,21

311:10 312:4

313:2,12,14,16

314:7,16,21

315:3,15,20

317:20 318:3

319:3,10,16

320:11,20

321:16,22

322:2,16,20

323:8,13,16

324:2,11,21

326:8

327:3,16,20

328:17,21

329:8,15,18

330:3,19

331:8,11 332:5

333:5,18,21

334:10,17 335:4

brought 171:21

193:6 228:16

282:14 295:11

buddies 283:10

build 53:9

Building 1:17

buildings 263:17

built 33:19 34:2

48:8

bulk 141:10

bullet 205:21,22

206:3 210:14

224:15 272:21

273:1,3,12

280:15 282:9

283:10 302:11

bullets 204:19

295:15 321:3

bump 42:7

bunch 35:2 243:2

278:16

burden 48:13,19

85:1 137:17

187:3 243:2

299:6

burdensome 30:10

39:21 52:20

84:14 85:16

121:8,18

business 13:19

busy 103:7

buy 275:17

C

calculate 25:15

30:8 31:19 42:14

60:14 62:11 75:2

82:11 88:10

92:12,18 137:15

282:1 293:4

294:5,7,9,15

297:19

calculated 50:11

53:16,22 65:19

80:21 92:10

93:14

113:10,16,17

117:3,4 205:2

214:18 219:11

271:10 274:1

280:5,16 282:6

283:1 292:17,18

293:5,11,18,20

298:1 302:2

321:8

calculating 31:4

37:3 45:3 79:16

80:18 84:7 87:21

90:10 91:6 100:1

107:22 117:1

123:21 135:11

137:16 303:13

calculation 26:6

35:15 44:17

77:11 79:19 80:9

84:17 90:14

93:10 100:8,15

107:19 109:9

116:21 121:5,6

122:1,8,10

124:5,8,18

216:12,15

217:7,8 282:19

283:4 292:22

295:17 296:9

302:21

calculation-based

89:14

calculations 28:6

38:20 39:16

43:14 45:16

55:20 75:20

116:3 124:19

125:4 290:19

calculator

16:2,3,12 17:12

18:8 20:9 21:7

22:7,18 23:7
Capital Reporting Company

Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-18-2014

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54:16 57:18

72:17 77:12,19

96:16,19

97:1,3,4 116:1

139:11

140:14,15 180:3

290:18 292:15

293:1 296:14

298:4,5 299:1,11

calculators 21:22

178:7

calculator's 17:21

77:16

calendars 145:10

calibrated

132:15,18,19,20

133:2,18,22

134:1,2,13,20

California 2:11

5:5 300:8

campaign 270:6

capable 119:1

capacitor 120:8

capacitors 120:10

capacity 144:3

Cappelino

220:5,6,11,16,19

235:13,19,22

236:6,9

246:14,15,21

Cappellino

141:7,8 158:14

159:17,18

287:21 288:4

305:5,6,11,13

capture 8:20

30:2,9 31:1

104:14 115:17

118:5 200:17

214:22 272:15

282:9 287:11

304:21 316:15

captured 8:3 25:6

93:10,14 104:6

156:11 197:6

214:9 255:4

258:16

captures 7:12

215:1

capturing 26:19

32:18 35:11

84:19 85:21

123:12 125:5

care 48:19 57:17

206:6

careful 105:1

230:12 237:12

277:21 301:10

cares 17:9

carrying 35:15

74:3

case 2:8 4:22 27:8

33:17,18 34:1,22

39:12 42:19,21

47:6,8,19,22

48:2 50:3 52:7

59:2,4 60:21

67:2,3 69:15

71:20 72:2,6,21

74:15,16,19

78:19 80:8 81:22

82:2,4 89:10,14

90:3,18,21 91:6

93:19 97:19

99:13 100:2,3,8

101:13

103:10,13,14,22

104:17 106:19

108:5,15 112:3,7

113:4,12 115:21

116:18 118:1

133:19 135:8

136:3 178:10

179:5,9 190:20

196:15 208:10

214:15 217:8,13

222:16,17

223:10 224:3

229:22

251:15,19 261:5

270:13 286:7

293:20

306:10,22

312:4,5 313:9

318:3 319:8,11

320:12

cases 29:5 37:22

45:2,15 83:13

87:19 107:4,5

117:8 118:4

136:14 139:9

179:3 187:15

318:19,22

cast 213:5

Casting 277:13

catalogue 187:11

catch 275:3 302:5

category 74:1 91:4

caucus 88:19

151:1 170:16

172:10,17 186:4

192:14 202:12

203:15 204:2,4

209:18 226:21

227:2 273:17

325:6,8,9

caucuses 13:14

203:10 325:14

caught 273:8

cause 242:16

245:6 277:19

280:3 300:19

329:19 333:8

caveat 310:6,9

caveats 136:4

certain 4:13 50:20

130:2 153:11

169:9 191:14

284:13 288:8

certainly 11:17

12:10,15 14:21

46:14 65:6 69:14

76:13 98:12

129:11 146:7

153:16,21

157:3,15 158:5

159:1 171:11

182:14 201:3

254:10 303:5

306:16 323:15

332:12

certainty 171:12

CERTIFICATE

336:1 337:1

338:1 339:1

340:1

certification

182:16 184:8

195:2,3,22 202:7

234:2 235:16

242:8 255:17

266:14 270:9

271:14 276:3

284:8 288:9

291:12

304:16,19

306:13,15 310:2

313:4 315:14

316:5,8 321:2

certified 15:22

84:11 130:6

131:4,18

132:1,12,13

134:2 188:6

233:12 234:5
Capital Reporting Company

Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-18-2014

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238:21 239:5

255:16 256:1

270:15 279:20

283:6 288:14

299:22 300:5,10

313:10 314:1,3,5

certify 286:10

336:4 337:3

338:3 339:3

340:3

certifying 190:20

284:6

challenge 61:22

64:2,5

chance 4:3 204:3,4

chances 299:7

change 18:22

45:10

55:4,15,17,19,21

70:10,12

76:21,22 78:3

82:7,9 89:2

95:18 107:7

113:18,21,22

114:6,13 116:13

123:15 126:18

166:4 177:16

179:3,12 191:17

192:11

205:11,18

207:15 209:1

228:20 229:1

242:12,13

267:17 320:17

changed 64:13

81:10 92:3 99:10

269:18

changes 16:4,9,11

18:17 19:5 47:7

65:3,12,16,17

110:22 119:11

135:5,22 155:19

194:1 196:14

234:12 241:21

321:19

changing 77:22

126:12,14

247:11

characteristics

37:10 75:7 158:1

200:4,21

characterize 109:1

146:10 149:4

characterized

146:18

Charlie 141:6

158:14

159:16,18

220:5,6

235:12,13

246:14,15

247:12

287:20,21 289:2

305:4

chart 38:1 58:9

64:18 67:10

69:5,8,17 74:13

79:21 259:4

charter 13:3

chases 302:4

CHAZ 336:3,20

check 189:13

317:10 333:3

CHERYL

338:3,14

chitchat 221:10

choice 185:13

248:22

choose 77:17

138:7

chooses 77:12

chose 32:20

chosen 310:12

circles 36:19

circuit 147:12

circular 14:4

325:9

circulator 127:4

141:18 146:1

148:1 151:15

157:15

158:18,19 161:5

324:7,10,19

327:18,21

circulators 11:13

30:4 57:1 141:21

143:22 144:6,16

145:2,3,17 151:6

152:21 154:4,16

155:10,22

156:14,18

157:7,13,19

158:3,8,10,13

163:4,8,10 192:5

322:19 324:15

326:18,21 328:3

329:22

CL 74:19 198:5,8

205:6,8,9

220:8,13 225:5,6

227:5,17,18

230:8 233:13

234:11 253:11

255:7,22 259:20

260:17 267:16

270:22 271:1

273:2 275:9

279:21

280:11,20 282:2

321:4,7

clarification 12:11

141:14 153:7

166:22 219:1

220:16 261:8

318:20

clarifications

163:18

clarified 150:9

314:9

clarify 35:1 46:14

49:1 165:1

177:13 185:6

240:15 257:2

272:8 283:18

284:20 309:10

329:10,14

clarifying 76:4

165:7 332:4

clarity 175:18

220:22

class 59:20 62:3

236:18 237:14

287:22

288:13,20

289:22 290:1,7

312:16 321:4

classes 122:13

131:13

clause 262:4 307:1

clean 139:8 149:4

clear 27:5 28:7

57:9,14 104:20

107:2 182:22

193:16 212:2,7

215:16 235:12

260:9 262:7

266:12 268:20

271:20 281:3

293:16 295:2

304:10 332:1

clearer 98:1

237:18 268:18

clearly 107:13
Capital Reporting Company

Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-18-2014

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113:1

close 21:6,14,15

30:7 155:8

175:17,19

247:20,21 248:6

289:5 313:13

319:17

closed-coupled

288:21 290:2

closed-coupling

133:21

closer 13:3 20:13

153:19

closure 308:10

co-chairs 146:4

coded 60:8

coefficients 47:1,2

63:5,8 65:5

70:10 71:22

216:19

coffee 79:6

collect 28:10 47:7

49:17 264:10

279:6

collected 25:14

31:7 85:9

collecting 25:8

264:7 279:2

colon 272:20

color 60:7

colors 286:6

column 26:5,8,17

312:7

combination 96:6

129:5 130:15

combinations

103:18

combine 39:1

58:18 124:15

177:10

combined 42:10

45:1 65:20

combining 22:12

61:9

comes 13:3 27:12

41:12 56:20

81:22 92:5

157:19 185:10

comfortable

109:15 165:7

172:11 173:11

202:22 204:12

206:13 211:21

212:4 275:1

319:5 320:6,7

324:17 328:9

comfortably 79:9

coming 53:7

190:11 229:6

297:17 302:3

335:15

comma 270:21

271:1,2

commas 270:19

commence 327:9

comment 10:7,12

11:6 56:16 72:13

77:7,8 82:6

97:16 109:21

143:4 161:9

171:7 207:20

250:7,10 259:11

283:9 287:1

304:8 328:22

331:15,16

comments 6:16

8:16,19 10:8

15:5 16:7 27:7

30:13,17 43:15

61:20 71:12 85:7

139:13 166:12

254:2 276:1

commercial 4:5

187:2,8,9 286:8

COMMERCIAL/

INDUSTRIAL

1:4

commission 183:8

commissioning

263:14

commit 328:4

329:7

committed 170:8

committee 146:1

147:10 151:15

152:12 212:15

215:22 226:11

324:10 325:10

committing

326:1,4

common 156:19

256:7

communicate

201:14

communicates

200:8

communication

261:9,14,16

communications

146:3

companies 35:3

Company 2:14

company's 183:12

compared 37:16

65:15 200:10

comparing 63:21

115:1

comparison 283:2

compatible 199:5

compelled 160:3

competition's

301:20

complete 273:11

337:8 338:8

339:8 340:8

completely 111:18

112:21 168:2

178:8 182:21

complex 52:1,20

complexities 19:18

complexity 17:15

47:15 48:12,18

65:6 108:21

compliance 276:3

279:4 280:9

284:9,16 291:19

297:20

compliant 16:13

36:13

37:6,8,13,15

38:14 39:2,8

47:22 49:4 51:6

52:6 54:21 59:13

61:3 63:13 72:3

75:8 76:9,16

111:21

112:2,6,12

131:18 174:12

178:15,22

179:19 180:5,15

205:10 209:4

215:11

219:2,4,11,12,13

complicated 45:19

51:8 85:4 118:7

136:5 243:1

335:9
Capital Reporting Company

Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-18-2014

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complication 46:2

comply 193:18

component 91:21

125:21

comprehensive

73:10

compromise 304:5

compute 300:17

con 32:21

concept 314:15

conceptually 27:5

314:22

concern 194:3

248:17 265:5

concerned 197:13

198:20 333:14

concerns 129:8

130:14 229:10

conclude 9:16 10:1

11:21 335:17

concrete 49:19

162:18 286:21

condition 105:20

confident 170:21

171:14,16

253:20 275:11

configuration

37:19 52:17 89:8

131:11 196:10

200:8 234:14

240:9 267:15

272:22 306:4

315:19

configurations

38:2 43:12

confirm 9:12

19:13 75:18

139:17 310:8

confirmation

152:13

confirmed 223:2

277:7

confuse 260:1

confused 123:18

220:13

confusing

76:11,13 123:1

177:11 268:10

283:3 285:4

confusion 101:7

319:12

cons 121:4

consensus 88:7

156:17 193:5

213:11 266:3

315:2

consequence

311:14

Conservation 2:10

5:8

conservative

66:9,12 67:1

69:16 94:1,6

95:9 102:5 104:9

107:10,12

108:14 109:9,17

110:21 111:18

112:15 114:21

115:12,14,19

117:3 218:4,8

297:6

consider 34:14

37:18 38:11

46:6,19 49:15

63:19 64:17

66:19 86:21

103:6 120:2,6,15

136:17 155:21

156:8 167:16

170:9 181:19

184:21 187:16

203:3 279:8

285:21 322:9

325:10,16

considerable

280:7 322:5

considerably

98:10,11 253:19

consideration

135:5 169:9,21

329:2

considered 46:16

83:15 109:2

131:1 157:4

172:11 186:22

189:3 285:15

considering 11:18

38:3 62:4

63:10,18 71:7

119:6 193:8

246:17

consistent 16:21

18:1 29:16 36:11

107:2,3 133:10

148:3 170:5

180:14

185:10,14

208:19 259:10

313:11 323:1

327:4

constant 74:16,22

75:2,3 97:4,11

110:4 140:15

176:22 177:8

178:3,4,10 196:8

214:13,14

215:8,10

253:3,10,13

254:11 273:1

294:11

constituency

160:16 172:6

constraints 328:16

construct 74:10

constructed 34:12

construction

174:18

consultants

151:20 154:14

170:12

consultation 307:6

consulting 2:22

3:2 325:18

consumer 183:6

200:9

consumers 187:6

196:11

consumption

185:8 302:19

contacts 160:13

content 6:9,10

141:12

164:3,11,13

173:12 182:7

203:22 271:22

275:5 277:11

context 75:1

238:21

continual 335:11

continue 4:12

13:11 17:8 72:13

181:19 278:15

325:16

Continued 3:1

continuing 71:8

contributions

295:8

control

55:5,6,11,12,13
Capital Reporting Company

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126:1 158:19

159:1,6,9,13

196:17 197:2,3

198:9,19 199:5,7

201:5 228:8,9,19

controlled

44:16,19 45:4

46:7,11 47:8

52:7 60:3 82:12

91:2 93:6,9 96:1

97:8 98:18

101:17 104:17

113:12,20

176:15 177:1

179:11 197:5

205:7 214:15

215:9 216:17,20

217:3,7 218:13

224:3,5 258:16

267:18 273:3

controlling 116:6

controls 38:4,16

39:14,19

42:11,15,18,19

43:1,3 58:22

79:17 80:8 89:9

90:2,13 95:16,22

118:17 121:9,16

122:5 205:3

216:9 217:6

281:22

controversial

319:19

convenience 298:6

conventional

146:17

conversation

144:19 197:5,7

201:3 255:4

323:10 324:1

conversations

323:2

convert 158:3

converted 66:7

converting 81:7

107:21

convey 148:11

copy 22:2

153:17,18

corner 111:4

Corporation

2:7,17 4:18

correct 11:2 20:16

51:14 60:2

120:8,11,21

134:15 137:19

139:22 167:9,13

217:19 234:1,3

236:21 246:20

270:20 279:14

290:22 291:1

323:13 337:8

338:8 339:8

340:8

corrected 259:3

correction 77:20

215:18,22

correctly 30:22

86:11

correctness 301:13

correlate 146:15

288:4

correspond 242:17

corresponding

248:12

corresponds

27:17,19

cost 48:18

120:3,14 187:4

222:7,8

costly 263:20

costs 50:14 148:4

158:2

council 2:10,21

5:8 299:10

counsel 10:17

56:15 336:11,14

count 225:12

226:14

counted 213:19

226:4,5,12

counterproposal

150:14

counts 310:14

couple 6:20 37:17

133:19 175:1

201:10 313:18

course 9:18

14:13,22 93:20

118:12 215:5

248:12 249:2

278:6

Court 336:1

337:4,6 338:4,6

339:4,6 340:4,6

cover 7:3 73:18

312:16,22

334:13

coverage 161:13

162:9

covered 63:14

67:5,6 72:7,22

74:1 128:22

163:15 211:4

243:8 272:1

289:21 314:22

334:11

covers 73:14

crank 263:3,6

create 134:19

creating 20:1

134:18

credit 50:12

55:14,18

creditable 301:5,7

criteria 135:19

cross 266:22

crosswalk 188:5

231:2 265:19

287:12

CSA 117:17

cubic 62:6,9 63:4

74:7 99:7,8

cue 143:22

current 56:2

116:10 119:2

149:12 211:22

330:16

currently 229:13

323:1 326:15

331:7

curve 17:22 25:19

27:12,15 28:1

29:19 30:7

31:1,2 33:1,2

34:7 35:11 36:20

37:1 39:11,19

42:17 43:1 44:18

47:2 49:4 53:9

54:8 55:7,13

58:20 61:7 62:7

63:17 64:4

65:3,7,13,17,18

66:19 71:20 77:8

81:9 82:10 83:7

84:15 90:3,7

91:10,11,13,14,1

5,22 92:17
Capital Reporting Company

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95:15 99:1

100:11,15

101:16

102:3,6,15

104:13 107:16

110:8,9,10,12

111:13,15

113:20,21

114:20 123:15

124:12,14,16

125:19

126:12,13

127:5,8,9 137:1

156:2 178:21

179:16 216:21

217:3,15,17,18

218:2 223:3

251:3,8 252:7

294:10,15,16,18,

21 295:5

296:3,4,18

curved 27:15

curves 36:1

39:2,18 45:8

46:17,19

47:12,17 58:7

61:17 62:8

63:2,20,22 66:5

68:19 77:9 78:6

83:1 88:8 93:5,7

95:22

96:12,17,18

102:19

104:15,16

109:16 125:9

221:14 252:2

300:3

curvy 27:16

custom 296:14

297:3 298:16

customer 135:1

183:15 222:14

297:4 309:21

customers 119:19

134:19 233:14

254:12 312:20

cut 50:17 57:9

149:9 204:21

244:18

cutoff 20:8,16

C-value 17:7

C-values 16:22

17:2 19:13

20:7,14

21:6,7,11

cycle 263:5

Cymbalsky 14:14

D

damper 57:11

Dan 5:15 19:19

20:10,20,21

83:11

dance 175:2

DANIEL 2:22

data 15:16

17:3,5,16 18:1

22:12

25:7,8,14,15

26:4,6,10,19

28:10,11,17,21

29:5 30:5,6,9

31:6,8,9

32:20,22 34:15

35:12,17

36:3,21,22

37:3,14 38:9

42:17 44:13

47:5,7,10,20

58:18,20 60:10

61:15,21,22 62:6

63:15,17

64:2,5,6,21 65:7

66:2,21,22 71:17

72:18 75:22

80:10,12

81:16,21 83:9

84:6 85:2,8,17

91:8 93:21 94:9

95:2 96:11

104:9,10,12

106:14,17

107:1,11 109:13

117:2,7 121:20

125:3 129:14

130:8,18 131:8

134:18,20

137:12 139:12

140:5,17

151:8,9,11,16

152:1 153:4

175:22 194:21

195:4,16

216:8,10,13

217:11 218:1

221:20

222:4,18,20

223:4 231:1,15

235:15 256:3

264:5,8 265:8

266:13 278:2

279:1,6 288:19

292:10

293:9,17,19

296:3,17 299:22

300:2,4,16

301:5,7,11

305:18 309:9,14

317:16 318:11

321:1

database 76:1

175:6 184:12

190:1

195:6,10,11

202:7 270:9

271:14 283:13

287:14 289:3

291:13 295:19

296:8,17 298:4

304:13 306:16

309:14 315:16

316:7 317:3

dataset 188:6

300:20

date 85:19 144:2

150:16 195:13

295:14 327:17

328:10 337:15

338:14 339:13

340:13

dates 9:20 13:18

145:9 326:19

333:15

day 4:9 5:22 247:6

333:6 335:7

days 9:18 10:3

150:5 301:4

DC 1:17

deal 151:1 170:11

204:19

dealing 11:13

120:9 304:11

deals 16:12

debate 109:12

256:5

decade 301:2

decide 104:19

105:6 106:7

150:19 167:14

172:10 176:11

203:4 219:7

331:3 333:7

decided 30:11

184:19 208:12

324:14

decides 54:20
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decision 333:7

deck 6:11 44:20

90:16

decrease 29:22

179:11

decreased 99:10

107:8

decreases 65:1

109:3

dedicated 141:22

143:22

default 24:12

38:13 39:2,17,18

49:3

55:5,6,11,12

58:20 65:7 79:17

81:8 83:1,7

84:15 88:8 89:16

90:2 93:3,7

121:7 122:1,9,10

123:15

130:4,16,17

184:17 217:3

defaults 54:14

Defense 2:21

defer 302:15 333:7

define 266:8

333:17

defined 162:1

305:14,15

306:16 316:11

defines 162:4

definitely 51:3

102:3 103:2

109:10 134:21

157:13,17

175:15 189:3

193:4 223:4

284:14 287:4

328:14

Definition 195:7,8

Delaney 83:11

delay 328:2

delegate 225:14

delegated 208:7

delete 121:19

257:15,19

deleted 287:9

295:16

deliberate 172:16

deliver 144:3

delivered 187:22

delta 94:14

157:11,12,14

DEM 299:1

demonstrate 122:3

demonstrated

193:1

demonstrates

33:12

demonstrating

117:1

denominator

36:14 76:8

179:1,9

department 1:16

2:3,4 4:5 5:13

14:9,10 153:14

303:21

dependent 254:15

depending 44:3,4

253:7 284:4

depends 55:8

105:18 237:22

244:14,18

246:10 254:9,10

300:7 327:11

depicted 71:21

deposition

336:6,9,13

derivatives 283:11

describe 37:15

43:2 44:22 47:12

62:7 66:17

105:13 106:20

107:7 176:16

178:22 195:17

200:21 201:2

218:2,12 221:13

223:12 224:5

235:14 239:7

280:1 288:19

described 40:11

49:2 62:22 76:14

86:16,21 87:9

90:3,7 93:7 99:9

109:1 116:12,13

134:21 156:4

200:15 205:4

224:7 232:14

325:21 330:4

describes 15:15

64:13 180:8,9

210:17 214:12

265:6

describing 38:9

40:3,9,16 218:11

description 40:5

41:16 81:11

215:1

descriptive 218:2

289:11 303:10

305:3

descriptor 320:2

design 2:8 25:3

46:3 129:13

153:1,5 229:18

244:20 247:5

262:21

297:10,16

designated 119:3

261:12

designation 236:2

designed 17:21

22:9 24:20,22

34:4 126:4

149:11

designing 31:3

designs 47:9

desirable 11:15

196:8 249:8

250:14 279:18

281:9

desire 224:4

desired 214:21

detail 41:20 43:13

79:15 105:14

118:8 261:11

294:17 322:5

detailed 42:2

276:10 297:4

details 25:12 26:21

44:20 156:14

284:8

determination

83:17 161:12

determinations

187:10

determine 28:2

29:8,12 30:13,14

34:4,8,18

36:7,21 43:3

74:9 89:4 90:4

104:9 107:17

108:1 113:11

115:21 118:10

124:9,10 126:11
Capital Reporting Company

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179:18,19

216:16,21 279:3

280:8 284:16

291:18 295:4

300:21

determined 25:18

26:14 28:1,13

36:17 74:7 90:22

198:2 200:3

210:19,21 215:5

218:18

determining 26:1

28:8,12 61:1

80:17 83:18

84:5,9 88:21

143:20 212:3,22

216:11

develop 71:8 73:1

95:15 97:12

98:22 101:16

159:7

developed 95:20

152:6 154:5

159:14

developing 45:7

159:4

development 2:8

117:19

Diagnostics 2:9

dial 298:20

diameter 229:17

241:15 242:9

243:22

245:1,5,10 247:1

252:3,5,22

253:20,21

254:13,20

256:7,12 257:3

259:21 261:2,7

264:7,17 265:6

266:4 270:16

281:13 289:7

304:17 321:7

diameters 304:12

diamond 64:4

diamonds 63:22

64:10

differ 43:1 194:4

difference 57:3,15

68:19 69:22

70:2,16 78:12,22

90:18 101:14,15

136:10 157:11

161:4 164:7

165:2,5,12 166:6

differences 20:16

50:5

different 10:4

22:17 35:3 37:11

38:2 43:11 44:18

46:16,17,19,20

47:1,8 49:6 52:2

54:5 61:12

63:2,4,5,7 65:4

77:9 80:2,20

84:20 89:10

90:19 91:11 93:5

96:16

102:20,21,22

103:2 107:18

113:19,20

121:9,11,15,16

122:4 124:11

135:7 145:5

146:13 154:22

156:1 158:22

161:15 162:15

163:6 178:3

182:1 222:22

233:15,19

234:13,18

236:16,17

237:4,19

238:4,12 240:4

242:12,14

248:22 254:5

278:17

286:4,6,9,13,14

288:11 290:6,7

294:2,21 296:13

302:19 318:8

323:7

differentiate 121:8

differentiated

54:6

differentiates

200:7

differentiating

63:11 122:20

123:10

differentiation

54:3,4

differently 60:8

184:11 199:1

247:11 297:14

difficult 47:11

89:18 105:12

107:1,6 120:20

151:6 222:5

difficulty 152:4,5

172:7

dig 140:5

diligently 203:19

direct 44:12

133:19

directed 231:13

direction 336:9

directions 146:3

directly 116:20

133:1 303:14

disaggregation

65:8

disagree 51:1

198:19 207:3

disclaimers 261:15

discount 52:10

106:1

discounting

106:18

discovered 57:1

discrete 205:14

discrimination

48:15

discuss 12:1,15

13:13 18:2 23:19

79:19 146:8

148:12 174:19

196:2,6 202:6

218:19

discussed 7:11

15:18 17:4,8

21:18 35:4 45:8

49:11 59:7,12

60:11 61:18

63:18 66:10

71:12 72:10 74:4

82:16,18 83:10

84:8,16 85:12,19

91:20 100:6,7

110:1 115:15

116:10 147:5

148:17 163:16

178:6,13,16,21

179:13 181:14

196:21 218:5

306:2 323:5

discusses 121:4

discussing 9:8

15:20 28:15

88:21 98:7

155:16 201:21

discussion

12:18,19 13:12
Capital Reporting Company

Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-18-2014

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42:2 85:8 93:4

140:18 144:15

156:20 168:18

172:13,16 176:2

190:6 194:22

196:14 203:8

224:1 273:21

278:10 308:4

317:13 324:9

325:1 329:21

334:20

discussions 14:5

159:19 181:17

331:3,21

disregarded 59:1

distinct 287:1

distinctive 232:10

distinguished

271:9

distribution 90:1

distributor 54:20

197:1 228:18

distributors 129:1

docket 22:20,21

23:3,7,14

document 143:13

169:3 323:15

DOE 8:4,9,14 12:4

15:22 17:3 22:8

24:6 39:1,10

49:3 51:6 56:15

63:14 72:7 74:20

81:6 83:18,20

84:13 85:9,12

86:19 87:1,3,20

105:12 112:2

142:3 144:1,3,10

147:17 148:8

150:17,18

151:19

153:8,17,18,20

154:14 157:3

160:22

161:2,12,16

162:19 167:12

170:22 171:1

176:4,5 182:2

184:8 185:11

190:1 193:16

206:22 219:13

223:8 270:5

278:13 279:17

283:14 284:2

286:18

291:11,17

294:20 295:2,3

297:19

300:1,5,10 302:4

317:10 319:20

325:18 326:17

327:5,9 328:12

332:7 334:5,7

DOE's 59:13 67:6

182:14 184:12

287:7

domain 300:18

domestic 157:12

done 16:15 19:6

20:10 30:3 34:20

79:2 101:19

116:22 128:5

136:19 139:4

145:6 147:18

155:20 164:7

165:18 173:5

180:2,14 191:11

194:1 222:22

225:18 242:8

253:6 259:12

263:14 278:16

308:1 333:4

dots 37:6

Doug 2:2 5:10,20

6:19 15:11 79:13

122:18 125:14

141:8 151:14

152:19 176:10

202:1,3

218:21,22

225:22 240:11

250:5,8,9

259:17,19

283:21

313:16,17

DOUGLAS 2:16

download 300:19

draft 7:9,17

116:11 226:19

dramatic 108:6,9

109:3,8

110:21,22

179:11

dramatically

70:12 114:18

116:5 135:7,19

drive 17:19

44:3,16 45:9,11

51:18 57:10

89:19 93:16,20

96:17 98:8,21

100:11,14,19

101:10 104:8

105:3,6,13

108:12,21 109:5

112:7 113:19,20

115:18 116:6

117:8,12,17,19

118:3 121:20

124:15,16,21,22

125:10 126:15

128:21 130:10

176:17

179:13,15

196:12 198:21

201:5

217:2,18,22

218:13,18

221:6,13,21

222:4 224:2

236:16,17

237:2,7,20,22

238:4,10,13

239:2,10,20,21

242:5 246:18,22

248:2

driver 205:2

drives 23:20,21

45:1 100:14

104:13 218:3

233:15,19

236:20

237:10,19

239:13 247:13

droopiness 322:8

drop 29:21 52:11

61:11 67:18

246:11 262:22

263:4

drop-off 77:20

dropped 90:6

dropping 109:6

drops 77:10,13

95:18 246:13

due 202:10

duly 336:6

duplicative 306:15

during 35:1

203:19

E

earlier 49:22 80:3

84:8 134:11

173:5 176:1

178:13,17,21

179:14 181:17

195:1 201:2
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215:18 220:7

221:9 223:11

277:3 285:13

289:19 323:2

327:8 329:21

easier 58:3 89:6

109:18 303:13

easily 189:13

193:16 256:3

easy 51:6 105:9

112:1 298:7

Eckman 2:10 5:7

13:21,22

14:7,15,20 15:2

54:12,18

55:4,12,15,21

76:2 115:1,6,10

149:3,16,20

150:1,3,17,22

161:9,10,20

162:6,9,13,21

163:3

172:15,20,22

187:17,21

188:2,5,9,12

195:9,13

208:16,17

209:7,14

211:6,12,15

215:13,15

230:20,21 231:4

300:7,13,14

301:8 327:13

ECM 54:8 56:22

123:12 145:1

147:22 149:8

158:3,7,10

159:12 239:20

240:1,2 242:13

ECMs 54:5 121:17

economics 119:22

edit 178:2

edited 320:22

editorial 16:8

edits 203:20

educate 269:13

EE 253:1

effect 73:13 105:4

115:3 116:5

128:6

effects 105:6,7

efficiencies 16:14

64:16 73:4 84:22

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long 5:22 88:7,8

226:10 268:14

312:21 328:11

longer 329:13

loop 153:19

loophole 313:20

314:13

lose 44:5

losers 52:3

loses 282:19

loss 17:22

39:2,11,18 44:18

46:17,19 47:2,20

49:4 61:17

62:7,12,13 63:17

65:7,17,18 66:19

71:20 81:9,20

83:1,7 84:15

88:8 93:4,5,7

95:15,22 96:17

98:22 99:1

100:10,15

102:3,5,15,19

104:15,16

109:16

113:20,21

123:15 124:14

125:9 293:21

losses 21:1

43:17,21 61:8,9

62:21 64:13,22

65:14,15,20 66:7

70:9 71:22 74:6

80:20,21,22 81:8

82:17,20 92:22

98:10 99:4 107:4

116:21 131:9

179:3 216:18,20

221:8 282:17

312:6

lost 223:20

lot 15:11 16:1

25:12 26:21

46:16 47:5,12

55:8 57:1 63:2,7

70:2 78:21 83:12

94:8 105:14

107:5 109:6

136:9,15,16

139:1 141:11,13

145:5 151:16

152:1 153:8

154:17 160:19

170:21 174:8

188:18 195:21

202:19 222:19

229:19 247:6

250:22 252:21

262:20 276:16

297:11 299:15

319:6,12 334:11

lots 124:18 292:20

loud 204:17

Louis 2:18 5:9

10:4 32:11,12

33:16 34:22

49:20 54:11

56:18 67:9 77:7

82:6 98:15

103:4,15 120:7

154:1 189:5

210:6 220:3

221:3 222:18

250:20 251:22

256:5 262:18

271:7 275:7

281:18 292:13

294:19 296:11

298:9 299:21

300:15 301:16

lovely 335:16

low 29:12 53:16

94:13 111:8

lower 60:1 72:21
Capital Reporting Company

Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-18-2014

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82:1,3 98:12

110:15

113:13,22

114:19 239:11

253:19 312:9

lowest 69:3 73:6

Lucas 2:3 5:13

6:17 10:5,16

12:6 14:8,16

23:15 40:18

48:22 51:4,11

86:8 142:5

150:16 153:12

156:10 164:3

181:20 182:10

206:15 209:21

215:19

231:13,14

268:21 270:5

271:19 272:15

277:15 279:15

283:20 284:20

288:6 291:3,16

292:1 305:22

317:20 321:16

328:1 332:5

Lucas's 239:9

lunch 13:16,20

140:22 141:1,17

148:17 264:16

304:2

M

M&V 188:2

machines 98:13

magnitude 45:20

300:21,22

main 7:5 41:8

57:18 90:18

154:16

mainly 160:14

major 172:10

majority 247:18

MALE 33:20

mandated 182:17

manipulated

35:16

manipulating 38:9

manipulation

28:11

manipulations

92:13

manner 119:15

manufacture

227:14

manufacturer

38:12 39:17

42:6,8 53:12

55:10 56:10

64:11 83:10

89:16,18 134:2

183:21 222:20

229:15 231:8

241:3 274:19,20

288:12,14

301:3,6,22 321:3

manufacturers

22:10 51:20

85:2,15 91:20

98:7,8 105:12,21

109:14 118:13

121:1 135:16

136:6 137:15

139:1 140:3

151:9 152:22

155:18 157:14

160:8,17,18

192:1 201:4

202:12 217:22

286:8 295:14

301:19 324:7,20

325:6,8

manufacturer's

289:4

Manufacturers

317:1

Manufacturer's

289:2

March 147:16

Mark 2:13 4:21

128:18,20

129:11

134:7,16,17

140:4,9 146:4

151:14 152:19

175:1 182:8,9

190:5 193:13

221:18 232:21

233:1 247:10

249:11 251:4

254:6 257:11

263:9 264:3

266:2 280:10

284:21 288:7,17

291:8 295:9

298:2 300:2

304:3,4 307:5

308:20,21

312:18 314:7

315:20,21

316:21 317:12

320:20 324:4

327:22 333:10

marked 186:14,18

market 51:18 62:3

67:20 103:19

148:13 158:22

159:1 201:13

254:15

marketing 227:9

230:2,9 270:6

301:8

marketplace 51:22

254:12 260:1

Mark's 287:19

match 248:3

matching 37:6

material 7:6 8:1,5

12:17 164:7

187:4 335:10

matter 69:22

70:18 101:13

114:14 209:15

matters

169:14,16,17

Mauer 2:15 5:11

128:11,12

129:6,17,20,22

130:11

132:11,16,21

133:5,9,12

170:19 171:8,11

206:12 213:8

254:1,4,8,22

289:20 294:1,7

302:10 323:22

332:7

max 76:8,10,14

82:13 177:16

179:4 247:1

maximum 25:19

26:7 64:7 75:4

76:12,17

may 12:5 14:22

23:20 24:22

29:22 32:21,22

37:13 39:9 43:1

54:5 56:8 70:10

71:15 73:10

101:10,11

103:21 123:14

128:7,12 129:2

130:2 138:14

158:6 163:3
Capital Reporting Company

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190:12,15

198:22 203:22

204:10 207:5

208:6 228:15

236:20 247:16

248:14,22

249:18 261:13

287:22 290:10

306:14 307:17

318:5 327:10

maybe 10:16

13:16 32:13

47:20 50:12 60:8

64:19 67:16 70:6

75:18 78:11

98:11,19

99:12,15,16

103:20 109:17

112:22 114:17

123:1,17 144:5

147:14 150:13

151:8 152:17

154:6,9 164:22

166:1 173:5

178:6 183:10

186:5 189:20

196:7 200:9

204:16 210:7

220:7 226:4,6

230:17 235:14

237:7 239:3

240:19 248:20

256:4,6 262:12

275:13,15

291:4,15,20

292:10 299:9

302:8 306:22

322:11

325:12,19 326:8

329:13 334:6

mean 12:10,14

22:1,19 23:1

40:10 51:17 55:7

68:11 76:15,18

82:14 95:10

97:11 100:6

101:13

105:11,21

123:5,6 126:19

151:14

155:14,19

161:7,22 167:17

168:12 170:6

171:11 173:11

181:7 182:10,11

184:7,19

185:2,3,4,13

189:20 190:16

193:13 194:14

198:18 202:18

205:5 206:17

207:9 208:14

209:3,8 215:2

227:3 228:12

230:6,8 236:10

241:2 242:14

244:16,19

246:10

251:17,18

258:22 259:2

264:11 265:20

268:22 275:22

276:2 280:11

284:11,14 285:3

286:1 287:2

288:7 294:16

296:16,18

297:21 299:2,3

303:4 304:14

306:2,18

316:4,22 317:2

319:13 323:19

324:7 326:4

327:1 328:6,8

330:13,17

331:17 332:20

333:2,12

meaningful

196:20

means 113:3 203:2

247:18 261:14

293:18 315:10

meant 22:15,18

59:3 237:14,15

298:4

meantime 13:13

measure 117:15

118:15 119:14

124:21,22

127:20 133:1

269:4

measureable

200:5,20

measured 25:11

27:6 29:1 31:8

84:21 119:1

130:7 205:2

214:17 217:10

282:18

measurement

116:15

117:11,21

118:11,14

119:12 187:18

210:18 217:12

244:4

measurements

26:22

measures 185:22

measuring 87:21

116:18

117:17,19 119:1

132:15,22

302:20

mechanisms 327:5

median 67:22

mediator 331:12

medium 85:18

meet 112:17

142:14 219:6,15

229:5

meeting 2:2 4:9

7:5 8:17 9:14,17

11:16,21 13:18

35:2 64:1 71:6

141:19 143:8

145:22 146:1,6,9

147:13 148:8

150:12,15,20

152:15,16

171:20 220:12

233:12 324:10

325:11,16

335:18

meetings 12:14

23:2 181:18

196:7 322:6

meets 219:22

245:10

Meg 2:21 15:7

30:18,20 134:9

154:11,12

164:22 209:20

229:11 256:20

257:1 292:3

299:20 322:3,12

326:9 327:16

330:21

Meg's 329:19

MEI 180:15 227:8

230:1,3 260:22

261:21 262:12

member 202:11

277:14 315:10

321:13

members 11:20

13:13 16:6 160:8

170:16 212:17

214:2 226:11
Capital Reporting Company

Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-18-2014

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325:3,9

memory 143:8

mention 256:5

mentioned 9:15

15:11 83:14

113:18 118:9

120:19 159:20

176:10 178:11

196:4 291:16

menu 288:15

291:16

merit 262:6

message 213:17

226:3

met 320:21

meter 118:3

127:17

meters 118:2

method 26:1

29:1,4,16

30:3,22 32:4

33:9 36:4 73:1

74:4 79:19,20

83:17 86:6

87:16,20

90:12,14,15

113:10 118:3

119:8 120:20

121:6,13

122:1,5,11

124:5,6,9,18,20

127:17

154:15,16

155:3,7,10 156:4

185:9,11

203:13,16

210:17 216:15

methodology

127:20 145:19

157:1 159:8

methods 25:8 28:2

42:3 116:8,12,13

121:5 122:8

146:2

metric 6:13 8:3

15:19,21

22:11,15 26:15

34:5,12 35:15

36:8 37:3

140:18,19

145:20 146:3

149:11,13 154:4

167:1,2,6,7

174:11,17

175:19,20,21

176:10 180:18

192:21 194:14

200:1,4,15,18

201:1

202:2,6,13,19

203:3 204:20,21

206:8 214:10

215:2 262:11

272:20 290:19

296:19 308:2

mic 23:6,10,12

76:6 78:14

102:15 103:22

microphone 19:21

21:20 33:17,21

102:17 128:18

middle 64:11

85:18 320:3

midpoints 153:11

min 76:15

mind 20:18 24:21

45:19 56:20

125:15

144:20,22

157:10 256:13

297:12

minds 175:10

minimal 23:21

65:14,21 84:16

155:18 299:8

minimally 16:13

36:13

37:6,8,12,15

38:14 39:1,7,10

47:22 49:4 51:6

52:6 54:21 59:13

61:3 63:13 72:3

75:7,8 76:9,16

81:3 111:21

112:1,6,12

174:12

178:14,22

179:18 180:5,15

205:9 215:11

219:2,4,11,12,13

minimum 16:22

39:10 51:15,21

57:22 58:1

66:14,18 73:9

75:8 76:10 88:10

105:20 113:19

179:15 186:12

197:3 200:11

279:2 280:5,8

295:13

minor 35:20 78:22

82:5 109:19

minus 119:4

minute 108:5

203:1

minutes 273:20

334:13

minutia 127:16

misconstrue 260:5

misleading 262:16

missed 32:10

73:10 307:13

missing 18:12 31:5

47:20 48:8 275:2

mistaken 223:8

mixed 303:22

Mm-hm 307:3

322:16

mm-hmm 48:1

51:16 52:22

56:13 57:12 94:7

101:9 102:7

110:3,16 111:5

119:20 120:12

122:22 125:22

128:3 129:18

132:3 133:11

137:2,13

138:5,13

model 15:22 48:8

135:18 184:1,13

190:3,12

191:12,14,16

200:11 205:9

229:16

231:4,15,21

232:4,5,6,10,15,

18 233:7,22

235:10,21

236:11

237:14,21

239:3,14

240:4,20,21

241:5,7

242:12,14,17,18

245:22 246:2

252:1,11

255:19,20,21

256:1 260:4

265:7,17 266:9

270:11,12,13,16

271:2 279:19,20

283:11,12,15

284:3,4,22

285:1,15,16

286:2,11,13
Capital Reporting Company

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287:10,14,16

304:11 306:20

310:3 313:7,9

314:2,6,11,12

321:3

modeling 265:19

models 22:12

200:7 232:8

236:8 241:2,4

252:17 270:15

288:22 309:17

modifications

246:5

modified 323:19

modify 54:20

301:15 323:15

moment 172:14

240:14 314:20

328:12 329:1

money 187:18

300:22

monitor 140:5

months 194:2

313:19

moon 330:13

morning 4:4

141:9,10 143:18

144:4 195:1

213:17 278:11

333:20

mostly 9:9 16:8

118:1 183:6

246:17 251:6

motor 2:7

16:13,17

17:17,19,22 21:1

36:9 37:13

38:4,12,13,14,15

39:2,6,8,9,11,14,

17,18

42:6,8,10,11,12,

14,15,16,21

43:2,18 44:5,18

45:10

46:3,17,19,20

47:3,7,9 49:4

50:13 51:19

52:5,13 54:4,5

55:5,10,16,18,22

57:4 58:6,19

59:11,12,13,18

60:16,18

61:8,9,12,17,21,

22 62:7,15,17,19

63:6,13,16

64:1,5,22

65:2,3,14,17,18,

20 66:19

67:2,3,6

70:2,9,12

71:20,22

72:2,3,6,12

73:4,13

74:1,10,17,18,20

,21 77:12,17,18

78:6 79:17,22

80:4,11,18,22

81:3,5,11,14,17,

18,19

82:5,7,9,16,20,2

1 83:2,3,6,8,10

84:5,10,12,15

85:2,5,15,21

88:22

89:2,9,13,16,19

92:21 93:1 95:22

96:16 98:6 99:4

100:10

102:5,14,18

104:16 105:3,13

106:8 107:4

108:12,21

111:22 113:20

116:4,19

117:15,16

118:1,17 121:15

122:14

123:11,12

124:12,13,14,21

128:15,16,21

129:2,5,9,10,19,

20

130:3,6,8,9,13,1

5,16

131:5,9,11,18

132:12,13,14,19,

20 133:2,3,6

134:1,13,14

135:12,15

136:8,11,12

138:10

139:12,18

145:1,2 148:1

152:7 159:5

160:18 176:17

178:13,15 183:3

191:15,17,19

196:17 197:19

199:5

216:17,19,20

219:13,14

221:20 227:18

236:22 237:2,7

238:9

239:2,10,20,21

240:5 242:4,13

258:21 283:9

293:21 305:10

312:22

motors

16:12,17,18,19

17:1 36:12 44:15

45:1 46:6 49:15

50:1 51:6,7 52:2

55:3 56:22 59:15

62:3 67:4,10,21

72:3,6,10,22

73:6,15,16,17,19

77:9 83:20,22

84:20 89:11

95:15 103:18,20

104:15

121:17,18 122:4

131:3 132:1

133:19 134:20

135:7 138:16

140:7 149:8

153:1,5 159:12

183:3 188:18

221:15 236:22

237:10 239:13

242:12 282:1

mount 288:21

mounted 290:3

move 148:13

159:12 334:6

moving 24:9

26:15,17 35:14

75:10 89:7

118:16 178:9

multi 258:12

multiple 67:11

87:7,8,20 129:3

270:14

312:11,13

multiply 39:1

58:17 70:11

multiplying 70:13

180:12

multistage

305:7,9,10,11

mumble 319:3

mutually 12:3

myself 11:18

240:16

N

nailed 9:11 21:3
Capital Reporting Company

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nailing 21:2

nameplate

183:3,16

184:4,13,20

185:2,9 188:22

227:4,6 228:21

229:14,20

232:22 234:11

261:11

265:14,16

266:17 270:12

272:1 273:13

287:12,13

nameplates 252:21

269:18

narrative 41:15

National 3:3

Natural 2:21

nature 207:2

nauseam 40:12

Navigant 2:22 3:2

5:15 20:22

nearly 8:10

necessarily 8:6

51:1 134:13

157:22 158:4,9

168:8 170:6

173:10 183:5

191:18 193:9

206:22 218:10

238:12 240:21

247:4 264:22

323:1 328:10

necessary 89:4

116:14 119:11

155:19 188:21

279:15,19

280:6,8 281:9

289:5,7 292:5

306:11 325:18

NEEA 5:9 32:12

67:9

negative 10:11

negotiable 196:16

negotiate 153:9

negotiated 4:6

326:15 331:4,14

negotiation 10:9

167:11 323:4,6

329:12 330:18

331:18 334:3

negotiations

332:9,14

neither 336:11

NEMA 18:2 43:20

53:3,10 62:2

63:16 64:7,15

65:8

66:8,13,14,17

67:1 72:21,22

102:19 104:11

118:12 153:1

217:22

NGOs 147:6,15

253:1

nice 6:2 101:22

189:22

251:12,15 335:8

Nidec 2:7 5:3

43:17 53:2 73:13

98:6

nine 306:4

310:9,15,16

311:6 312:3

315:19

318:19,21

nobody 163:10

188:19

nodding 305:4

nods 315:6

noise 82:10

NOM 260:17

nomenclature

16:10 176:13

214:11 224:7

nominal 25:2

176:21 188:22

190:14,19 196:9

198:7,8,11

221:22 227:5

233:20 234:7,10

243:11,20

244:10,13 245:6

258:3,5

260:2,11,12,16,1

7 261:3

267:20,21 269:5

290:9,12 291:1

non 153:1

none 268:14

nonlinear 120:9

non-negotiable

279:16

non-NEMA 153:5

non-overloading

136:20

Nope 198:3

NOPR 10:7,12,19

118:9 178:6

179:21 181:3

326:21

327:18,20 328:6

329:19

NOPRs 333:15

nor 336:11,15

normal 171:7

normalizing

106:18

normally

136:18,19

146:16 263:7

305:17

Northwest 2:10,18

5:7

notation 277:21

note 13:6 16:14

29:10 65:10

108:12 115:16

117:10 143:6

153:7 163:12

226:9 260:8

295:7 306:9

308:9 316:14

323:8 330:15

noted 36:20 58:5

63:3 106:18

256:4 267:18

279:16 290:10

304:17

notes 196:2 337:6

338:6 339:6

340:6

nothing 13:20 68:1

88:18 244:1

257:15

notice 11:7 28:17

67:10 86:15 87:4

161:12 162:10

171:10 255:2

292:15

notification 327:9

noting 120:18

179:8

nuance 167:17

nuances 178:16

number(s 321:4

O
Capital Reporting Company

Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-18-2014

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object 207:16

268:15

objection 324:4

objective 48:20

54:2 108:18

147:20

objectively

200:5,20

observation 77:5

144:9

obvious 56:19

284:17

obviously 8:14

36:2 42:6 57:10

65:2 111:19

121:18 128:21

139:1 171:1

182:10 183:12

187:3 190:11

194:1 200:20

258:2 284:11

288:17 333:12

October 147:13

150:12 152:15

325:11

ODP 64:12 71:21

offer 86:4,5 225:2

239:16,19,21,22

240:5 286:9

306:20

offered 51:20

240:8 310:10

315:18

official 25:1 87:8

160:20

officially 86:19

oh 99:1 118:17

132:21 195:2

203:7 224:16

255:7 258:20

260:6 266:10

270:5 271:3

272:8 276:22

277:6 278:1

280:17 283:16

305:10 307:3

309:4 334:17

okay 4:7 5:17 11:9

13:5,19 14:6

15:4,9,10 18:11

19:18,19 20:18

23:8,16,22

24:8,9 27:10,11

28:7,19 31:21

32:8 35:10 37:17

41:18,21 42:4

43:20 46:12

48:11 53:14

54:10 56:7 58:5

60:5 69:9,12,18

70:6 71:19 73:20

74:3,13 75:9

76:3,21 78:1,9

79:13 86:12

87:13

88:4,16,19,20

94:4,11,15 95:7

96:8,20

97:2,6,9,14,20

98:3,15 100:18

101:4 102:10

103:4 104:4,6

107:15 110:6

111:14 113:8,9

115:9,10,20

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square 37:2

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317:18 327:17

tables 63:8

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26:15,18 28:9

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306:17 310:2

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25:1,18 28:17,21

34:16 35:19 39:8

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81:5,13,16,21

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theoretical 74:10

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tired 322:7 333:9

today 4:8,13 6:10

7:4,18,20 8:1

11:5 13:12 14:18

15:11 18:2,21

19:3,6 20:11

42:3 53:8 83:20

104:18,20 105:4

114:4 140:16

143:1 156:9

173:17,20

174:19 176:2,7

179:14 193:5

194:18 218:16

258:4 322:15

324:1 334:11

335:2

tolerances 25:9

Tom 2:10 5:7

13:21 115:10

147:5 148:16

149:2 158:4

161:9 208:16

230:20 299:9,21

300:13 302:15

319:6

tomorrow

7:4,16,21 11:5

14:22 143:18,19

163:17 172:19

173:4,8,9,14,22

176:7 186:6

193:10

194:8,13,14

333:22 334:20

335:5,6,17

Tom's 327:4

tonight 276:11

tool 22:8,19

top 27:8,13 37:1

38:1 58:9,10

61:1 79:20 82:2

178:19 259:8

267:11 319:18

topics 11:16 146:2

torque 25:5 26:20

133:1

toward 148:21

towards 10:14

24:22

to-water 80:6

TOWLSEY

145:12

Towsley 2:20 5:2

75:12,14,18 76:3

77:2,3 78:2

138:1,2,6,14,19

145:11,13,16

252:19,20 254:2

260:19 261:6

289:16,17

290:17 291:2

307:21 316:17

318:4

trace 183:17 256:2

track 156:7 223:20

325:20

traction 160:19

trade 183:8

traded 108:21

tradeoff 46:1
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trading 108:13

transcript 337:5,7

338:5,7 339:5,7

340:5,7

transcription

337:1,8 338:1,8

339:1,8 340:1,8

Transcriptionist

337:15 338:14

339:13 340:13

transition 159:19

translate 29:1

179:22 180:8,11

translated 96:11

146:12 166:2

translating 15:16

treated 12:12

treating 121:7

tremendous 4:10

288:18

trend 29:6 32:18

65:1 107:2,3

triangle 36:5

38:18 61:6

triangles 35:13

37:2 64:10

tried 73:9 138:9

160:13 200:17

282:9 286:5

trim 190:15,19

233:15 234:9,16

235:5 237:5,9

238:5 239:22

240:3,6,8 241:21

242:1,4 243:11

244:15

245:11,14,18,19

246:3,11 248:14

249:9 250:11,16

252:22 253:5

254:19

255:15,18

263:7,13,19

285:14

trimmed 190:13

238:8 243:6

246:7 248:8,20

249:19 251:1,16

252:8 253:2,12

257:5 262:1

285:17

trimming 311:13

314:15

trims 239:12

248:13 255:16

304:9,11

true 6:14 19:15

66:17 117:7

167:18 207:18

336:9 337:8

338:8 339:8

340:8

truly 260:11

trust 300:10 302:7

try 7:17 10:1 14:17

20:4 36:2

44:16,22 46:2

47:6 52:1 53:8

112:5,22 148:15

160:7 198:19

218:2 223:18

249:17 250:1

326:5 333:7

334:13

trying 7:3 48:11

51:14 52:3

102:12

114:10,16,20

139:7,10 168:17

177:9 201:2

222:9 240:15

248:5 253:14

256:16

257:12,14 265:9

281:3 293:7,14

295:12 313:19

317:16 318:10

324:16

TSD 327:2

turbine 312:12

turn 168:19

300:22

tweak 7:20 209:2

tweaked 17:9

tweaks 156:5

171:2,3

Twenty 92:1

two-speed 50:1

tying 136:12

type 47:3 54:5

55:22 63:6 80:8

99:8 121:16

158:19 168:20

197:3 254:15

272:1 296:21

305:19

typed 337:5 338:5

339:5 340:5

types 49:15 51:5,7

54:4 72:11,12

108:22

121:15,17 122:4

130:2 242:13

286:14

typewriting 336:8

typical 105:17

106:1,14 107:12

typically 24:21

86:6 106:17

126:10 131:2

183:11 187:6,10

241:2 249:15

U

U.S 2:3,4 4:5 5:13

157:13 158:22

Uh-huh 145:7

175:4 183:13

186:8 187:20

188:4,8,15

189:19 190:9

194:16,19

197:22

198:12,17 199:3

227:20 235:7

242:10 257:7

322:20

ultimate 157:21

ultimately 151:11

uncertain 327:2

unclear 163:22

175:20 322:22

uncontrolled

46:8,11 47:6

60:10 74:15

90:21 176:21

178:11 179:9

205:7 214:14

215:9 224:6

258:16 267:16

273:1

underneath

233:15 285:17

Underscore

275:19

understand 50:16

60:5 86:11 98:2

102:14 130:6

165:5 171:12

182:13 184:7
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207:5,21 209:9

233:6 245:14

256:15 257:13

259:19,21 262:6

297:8,17 323:16

understanding

12:9 19:17 22:11

30:21 48:21 56:9

156:19 168:16

169:8,22 254:19

285:22 308:15

understood 7:3

111:18 112:21

113:1 170:6

281:7

undertake 152:14

162:11 326:17

unenclosed 46:18

unfortunately

142:22

UNIDENTIFIED

195:8 205:17,21

206:2,6 208:1

211:2,11

212:5,13 214:1

216:3 222:3

228:1 230:6

234:8 235:21

236:4,8,12 237:2

243:8,18 246:6

247:20 250:13

256:9 259:3

260:12,15

265:1,4,13,16,18

267:7,8 273:21

unique 104:15

unit 149:21

187:12,14

227:19 257:4

270:17 280:9

units 179:22

universe 43:11

139:2

universities

222:22

unless 10:3 43:15

50:14 56:3,5

66:21 174:16

194:17 197:17

202:4 251:1

269:10 313:7

unnecessary

291:21

unrelated 168:2

314:19

update 16:12

19:20 20:7 74:17

updated 16:21

17:2 59:17 62:1

277:4 300:20

updates 18:5

updating 277:2

upgrade 58:3

upon 16:10 44:3,4

59:9 63:8 72:4

174:15 184:8

308:2 324:14

upper 38:18

upstream 117:12

usage 250:15

useful 87:14 161:6

166:18 193:1

230:16 294:3,4

300:18

302:15,17

320:13 322:14

325:18

users 98:1

usually 261:16

302:4

utilities 2:12 5:6

119:19 302:17

utility 120:3 189:1

196:11 230:15

256:14 296:14

297:10,13,16

298:10 302:15

320:13

utilized 198:15

V

valuable 182:6

187:14

value 21:4 32:3

66:9 76:12,17

87:22 93:18

117:3,4 133:9

170:21 258:4

262:1,5,13,17

271:9,10

280:4,11,12,14,1

6,19 282:22

283:1 289:12

293:5 296:20

307:15

values 20:14

48:4,5 59:4,5

64:7 66:12 73:2

81:21 92:19

108:3,11 113:10

130:16,17

159:8,15 295:18

297:18 298:7

311:15 318:5

valve 57:11 126:11

263:3

variability 135:17

136:9

variable 44:3

57:10 60:3 64:17

96:1 97:4 101:18

113:11 114:1

123:3,20 125:18

176:15 177:1,9

178:3,4 179:5

196:9,18

214:14,15 215:8

216:11,12

246:18,22

254:11 273:3

294:16

variables 126:17

variation 138:12

234:8 309:6

variations 242:1

varies 89:9 229:15

variety 136:8

vary 63:1 244:12

verbiage 259:4

324:13

verification

187:19 188:21

189:4 317:10

verify 256:16

294:21

versa 311:20,21

version 16:4,5

18:8 19:14 53:22

72:17 96:18

180:2 185:4

234:9 323:9

versions 18:7 19:1

versus 25:20 33:1

34:7 45:21 46:18

48:13 54:8

63:6,12 65:13

91:13 109:16

114:20 120:3

121:5,17 145:2

165:4 272:20

282:22 290:12
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vertical 312:12

VFD 43:18 91:16

189:10 239:20

242:9 299:10

VFDs 103:18,20

253:5 299:11

via 300:11

vice 311:20,21

view 12:21 167:10

287:3

views 12:4 145:5

206:17

visible 163:2

251:11

visual 59:4 90:8

vividly 193:15

VL 198:10 205:7,8

220:8,13 225:5,6

227:6,19 228:17

242:8 253:18

255:22 259:20

267:18 270:22

273:4 279:21

280:12 282:2

321:5,7

voltage 119:2

volts 118:6

voluntary

159:10,13

186:11

vote 6:3,4 7:14,21

8:5 12:17 151:20

166:22

167:1,5,14,21

170:7 171:4,17

174:2 175:21

176:11 194:17

202:6,13 203:22

205:15 206:2

212:15

213:14,18 216:3

224:14

226:3,7,10,11

257:8 275:5

314:18 315:2,7

321:14 323:12

329:11 330:21

voted 7:10,14

168:22 170:13

213:6 226:12

243:5 276:16

277:14 306:8

307:18 315:10

votes 143:14 213:7

215:20 276:10

307:14

voting 165:3,4

206:13

218:10,16,20

277:13

VTS 313:5,7 316:3

W

wait 18:20 19:2

96:19 156:13

165:16

waiting 142:6

165:10

walk 43:14

58:8,13 235:19

278:3 279:11

walked 75:15

walking 58:10

wall 128:6

Waltner 2:21 15:7

30:18,20

31:10,12,21

32:5,8,10

134:7,9,10

154:12

155:2,9,12

165:1,20 209:20

229:11,12

230:14 256:22

257:2,5 292:3,4

299:20,21

322:12,13,17,21

323:18,21

326:9,10 327:19

329:20 331:2

Washington 1:17

wasn't 15:8 68:18

69:19 144:11

153:4 154:3

268:8 281:6

298:4 317:21

watching 178:1

water 2:16 5:10

25:10 90:16

122:19

149:15,17

155:5,7 217:9

244:18 298:19

311:19

watt 118:2,3

127:17

wattmeter 128:9

wave 43:22 53:7

95:19 102:20

waveform 44:4

waveforms 105:7

120:10

ways 17:2 29:17

48:16 49:13 80:2

87:21 162:16

253:17 256:14

278:17

wear 79:4

webinar 72:10,18

214:2,4

website 223:9

we'd 9:11 47:12

48:14 87:11

97:15 98:9 99:20

112:9 120:22

148:12 172:1

190:7 278:17

284:15 300:9

307:11 329:7

Wednesday 1:12

weeds 139:3

week 145:22

324:10

weekly 35:2

weigh 187:5

weight 169:10

weighted 43:6

61:4 68:2,9,10

70:19 74:14

90:17 176:16

177:3 178:18

179:1 180:6

205:1 214:16

218:14 298:15

weighting 59:10

91:3 113:11

178:13

weights 176:19

177:2

Weintraub 2:22

5:15 20:20,21,22

21:15

weird 139:8

239:17

welcome 5:20

15:4,7 28:15

30:12 72:13 79:8

93:21 118:12

121:1 141:6
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welcomed 196:15

we'll 6:13 7:17

8:16 13:3,8,17

15:3 18:2 21:16

23:8,16,19 28:15

34:7 66:3,22

79:6 80:15

90:7,14 94:17

102:5,9

104:12,16 106:1

107:10 109:12

117:6 121:1

134:22 139:14

152:14 153:18

179:17 203:3

217:1

227:15,17,18,19

270:20 273:14

275:3 286:20

287:16 288:11

323:15 328:19

329:6 333:22

335:16,17

we're 4:7 6:10 7:8

10:13 11:4 14:3

15:11 18:10

21:4,5,8 23:9

24:10 26:16

28:7,20

29:2,10,11 30:15

32:6 33:7,8

35:11,14 37:21

38:7 42:1 43:12

45:3,7 47:19

51:14,17 52:20

57:6,15 58:8

62:4 71:7 74:5

79:11,18 80:9,14

82:4 89:22 90:13

94:19,20 95:11

96:4,5 98:19

102:1 105:2,5

106:3,4,5

109:6,14 110:21

112:4 113:5,6

115:4,7,17 116:7

118:2,10 121:21

125:19,20

129:14,15

134:18 135:15

136:12 139:4,7

160:2 182:10

203:21 205:14

207:7,8,14

208:2,21

209:4,16 215:16

216:18 217:21

218:10,16,19

219:8 222:9

223:18 224:11

225:19

227:4,8,12,16,17

,19 228:10 229:6

230:2,11,13

231:1 233:17

234:4,5,6,10

237:18 238:20

241:13,14

242:14,22

243:1,2 244:9,16

253:9 254:17

260:3 261:1

264:6,10,12

265:7 266:19,22

269:14

271:15,21

274:14 275:1,2

276:9 277:7

279:7,8 281:2,22

283:22 284:11

289:4,5 292:11

296:15

304:10,11,12

307:9 308:19

309:10,11

314:4,10 318:16

320:6 322:6

326:4,5,15 330:8

331:6

333:6,13,14

334:6 335:14

wet 238:6 240:7

we've 8:3,11

9:4,8,11

15:18,20 16:1

21:8 22:3

28:9,14 29:5,7

34:12 36:1,14

38:2,9 45:8

46:16 47:5

59:9,12 61:18

62:1 63:10 71:21

81:18 84:15

85:19 93:19

101:16 104:10

110:1 111:14

113:15 115:15

117:14,20 121:6

123:16 125:9,10

127:2 130:7

139:4 140:18

144:14 149:13

150:13 161:15

163:9 174:9

185:9,18

192:13,22

194:11 195:15

200:2,15

202:19,20 205:4

210:1 218:5

258:3 268:22

278:16 288:18

290:19 304:17

308:17 309:19

314:22 319:19

320:21,22

321:19 322:4

323:5 330:11

333:4

whatever 7:19

8:4,19,21 15:19

59:20 97:16

149:9 150:20

209:2,13,14

229:18

236:2,4,6,9

279:8 287:15

whatever's 240:7

whatsoever 73:19

wheel 233:11

wheels 285:17

whenever 181:3

193:11

whereas 54:7

306:19

wherein 226:3

WHEREUPON

79:10 141:5

203:5 274:11

335:18

wherever 152:17

whether 11:14

12:21 14:7 46:4

47:16 50:8 85:16

122:9 130:1

133:20 141:18

150:5 154:14

157:2 158:20

162:17 163:22

164:2 165:7

170:8 171:4

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175:21 176:6

186:6,16 190:14

202:18 204:2

208:22 228:5

231:4 236:16

251:16 254:10

271:9 273:22

280:4,15,17

281:22 282:1,14

287:2 301:21

314:4 318:1,15
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white 183:7

whole 81:10 85:5

96:6 111:1 145:8

165:4 171:20

206:7 212:7

227:19 255:15

287:9 302:13

317:13 334:4

whom 336:3

whose 106:7,8

336:5

Widder 3:2 6:15

15:10

18:11,15,19

19:8,11,16,19,22

20:3,12,18

21:10,17 22:3,22

23:17,19

24:4,7,9

27:9,11,22 30:19

31:6,11,13,18

32:1,6,9,16 34:3

35:10

40:4,7,12,15,19,

22 41:3 42:1

43:19 44:1,7,10

46:7,12 48:1

49:7 51:10,16

52:22 53:19

54:1,17

55:3,6,13,17

56:1,5,13 57:12

58:5 60:2,7

67:8,14

68:3,6,9,14,20

69:2,6,10,13,19

70:4,8,21 71:3,5

73:20 74:2

75:13,17

76:5,11,14,21

78:1,4,8,10,13,1

5,17 79:12,13

86:1,8,12

88:12,16,20 92:2

94:4,7,11,15,18,

21 95:3,7,12

96:2,8

97:2,6,9,14,17,2

0 98:3

99:1,3,8,12,15

100:5,13,19,22

101:5,9 102:7,10

104:6 105:10,16

106:10,16

110:3,6,9,11,16,

19 111:2,5,9,14

112:13 113:7,9

114:7,12,15

115:8,11 119:20

120:5,12,16,18

122:22 123:6,10

124:1,4,8

125:8,22

126:3,5,9

127:1,10,12,18,2

2 128:3,10

130:21 131:20

132:3,6,8,10,13,

17,20,22

133:8,11,14

135:3 136:21

137:2,5,8,13,18,

21

138:5,13,18,21

139:20,22

140:8,11,13

141:1 155:4,13

166:20

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168:16

169:15,17,19

170:3 174:7,22

175:7,11,13,15

176:9

177:11,15,18,21

181:3,7,11,13

186:20 187:20

188:1,4,8,11,15

189:2,19

190:4,9,18 191:5

192:15,18

193:3,17,19

194:5,7,10,16,19

195:2,6,12,16,20

197:9,15,22

198:3,6,12,17

199:3,11,19

204:7 205:16

206:7,10

210:10,16

211:5,9,13,16

212:1,6,11

213:13,20

214:5,8 215:14

216:2,10

217:18,20

219:9,15,19

220:1,9,14,18,20

221:13 222:2,4

223:14,17,22

224:11,13,16,19,

21 236:19

237:4,16

238:3,8,12,16,19

239:6,16 240:13

241:12,17

242:10,20

252:17 255:5,13

256:12,18,20

257:4,7,15,17,19

258:1,7,10,12,20

,22

259:5,7,13,16

264:9,13,16,21

265:15,17

266:18,21

267:2,11

268:9,13,17

270:1,3,10,19

271:1,4,6,12

272:8,11,14,17

273:5,9 275:19

276:13,20

277:22 278:4,8

279:13

280:14,17,21

281:2,7 282:8,20

283:14,19

285:9,20

286:3,17 287:8

289:9

290:1,9,14,22

291:14 292:12

293:1,3,10,13

294:6,11,14

295:1

303:6,11,19

304:1,14

305:9,12,16

306:12 307:3

308:8,12 310:5

313:4,13,15

314:19

315:1,13,16

316:5,13,19

317:5 318:16

330:15,20

334:21 335:2

wide 136:8,9

WIDEER 175:4

WILLIAMS 3:3

20:6,17,19

131:15,21

132:4,7,9 143:11

173:17

243:4,9,17,21

261:19 268:6,10

277:2 290:5

294:9 306:1,18

308:14 309:22

310:7,15,17

311:5,7

317:2,7,21

318:13 321:21

322:1

323:11,14,20
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332:18 334:19

willing 153:21

165:14 284:11

329:7

winners 52:3

wire 80:5

149:14,16

155:4,7 217:8

298:19

wire-to 90:15

wire-to-water

17:16 38:16

42:12,20 45:14

54:7 58:11 80:16

84:18 85:20

90:12 93:18

100:17 116:8,14

118:16 119:7,15

122:5 123:7

124:19

wise 244:17

wish 6:8 164:2

170:17 257:8

314:16 315:4

wishes 277:8

wishing 204:11

witness 336:5,7,10

wonder 47:19

161:11 208:5,8

wondered 88:17

wondering 11:14

170:15 239:5

318:15 320:6

334:12

wording 205:18

211:22

work 6:19 8:13

9:16 10:2 11:21

14:2 41:17 43:14

51:3 96:6 100:4

109:13 120:11

142:19 143:1

144:10,12,15

152:12 154:15

165:18 170:11

172:1,2 216:18

217:21 223:1

239:5 276:9

286:21 287:2,5

326:5,6 330:8

333:14

working 1:5 4:6

6:6 7:13 9:16

10:2,13,18 11:22

22:4,10 53:5

79:8 96:12 105:3

141:20 151:7

152:7 167:14

168:21 169:5

174:15,18

176:11

181:17,19 194:2

203:18 204:1

207:10 208:7

212:19 213:11

225:2 267:5

271:19 272:13

275:6 277:8

287:17 291:10

292:7 315:5

321:11 333:1

335:13

workload 14:12

works 77:11,18

128:1 244:9

330:6,7

world 298:21

world's 331:14

worried 115:4,6,7

worry 312:20

worse 54:6,15

109:10

worst 67:2,3 69:14

72:6 106:19

108:15 112:7

218:3

worth 11:18

131:12 179:8

193:7

would've 101:19

write 41:1

writes 8:9

writing 112:16

150:9

written 8:16

322:22 324:2

wrong 54:14

167:13 236:21

X

Xylem 2:13 4:21

128:20 129:12

134:17 140:4,6

151:15 182:9

221:19 249:12

251:5 263:10

264:3 280:10

284:21 288:18

291:9 298:3

304:4 308:21

312:19 315:22

317:12

XYZ 191:16

Y

Ye 6:15

yellow 26:17 63:21

64:5 183:7

yep 127:22

177:15,18

198:12 220:18

259:13 266:21

267:2 270:19

280:21 281:7

291:1 292:12

305:16

yeses 277:15,18

315:11 321:17

yesterday 4:10

5:21 6:4 7:11

9:13 10:1 17:4,8

21:13,18 56:14

83:10 175:2

232:14 278:10

284:7 286:5

295:11

307:14,18

yet 4:3 7:6 49:8,19

56:16 96:12

143:10 158:1

180:2 198:2

264:10 284:1,9

330:12

you'll 8:15,18 9:2

28:17 47:1 71:14

286:22

yourself 248:14

you've 6:18 26:6

30:22 40:10 41:5

52:16 111:12

133:2,4

137:11,12 255:3

278:3 303:3

313:3 321:18

335:14

Z

zero 125:20