1

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### U.S. Department of Energy 1

2

3

4

5 

### Manufactured Housing Working Group 6

7

8

9 

### 1:02 to 5:15 p.m. 10 

### Tuesday, September 9, 2014 11

12 

### 1000 Independence Avenue, S.W. 13 

### Washington, D.C. 20585 14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

222

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### APPEARANCES 1 

### Mediators: 2


### EILEEN HOFFMAN 3


### JAVIER RAMIREZ 4



### TED BANTLE 5


### DAVID HUANG 6 

### In Attendance: 7


### MARK WEISS - MHAR 8 

### ROBIN ROY - Natural Resources Defense Council 9 

### KEITH DENNIS - National Rural Electric 10 

### Cooperative Association 11 

### MATTHEW WALKER - Navigant 12 

### JOHN CASKEY - National Electrical Manufacturer's 13 

### Association 14 

### LOWELL UNGAR - American Council for an Energy 15 

### Efficient Economy 16


### JOE HAGERMAN - DOE 17 

### BERT KESSLER - Palm Harbor Homes 18 

### EMANUEL LEVY - Systems Building Research Alliance 19 

### MIKE LUBLINER - Washington State University 20 

### Extension Energy Program 21

223

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### APPEARANCES CONT'D: 1 

### RICHARD POTTS - Virginia Department of Housing & 2 

### Community Development 3


### EMANUAL SANTANA - CAVCO 4 

### DAVID TOMPOS - NTA, Inc. 5 

### MICHAEL WADE - Cavalier Home Builders 6 

### ROB LUTER - Lippert 7 

### SCOTT DRAKE - East Kentucky Power Cooperative 8 

### ED BARBOUR - Navigant 9


### LOIS STARKEY - MHI 10


### PAM PONTILLO - DOE 11 

### RICK MENLIN - Department of Housing Urban 12 

### Development 13 

### STACY EPPERSON - Next Step Network 14 

### ISHBEL DICKENS - National Manufactured Home 15 

### Owners Association 16


### RICK PETERSON 17



### AMY BARNARD 18


### ROBER LUCAS 19

20

21

224

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### P R O C E E D I N G S 1 

### MS. HOFFMAN: I'm Eileen Barckus Hoffman 2 

### and I'm here from Federal Mediation and 3 

### Conciliation Service as is my colleague. 4 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: Javier Ramirez. 5 

### MS. HOFFMAN: And? 6 

### MR. BANTLE: Ted Bantle. 7 

### MS. HOFFMAN: And we're calling this 8 

### meeting to order. Appreciate a few minutes. 9 

### We've got a few folks joining us and we know 10 

### there's quite a few online as well. 11 

### Before we get started we've got an 12 

### incredibly packed two days. But let's hear who 13 

### his here. Let's start with you, Mark. 14 

### MR. WEISS: Mark Weiss, MHAR. 15 

### MR. ROY: Robin Roy, Natural Resources 16 

### Defense Council. 17 

### MR. DENNIS: Keith Dennis, National Rural 18 

### Electric Cooperative Association. 19 

### MR. WALKER: Matthew Walker, Navigant. 20 

### UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Office of General 21 

### Counsel, DOE. 225

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### MR. CASKEY: John Caskey, National 1 

### Electrical Manufacturer's Association. 2 

### MR. UNGER: Lowell Unger, American Council 3 

### for Energy-Efficient Economy. 4 

### MR. HAGERMAN: Joe Hagerman, DOE. 5 

### MS. HOFFMAN: All right. Thank you. Now 6 

### we know there are quite a few folks online so 7 

### that we would want to know who they are. 8 

### (microphone disturbance.) 9 

### MS. HOFFMAN: Oh, excuse me one second. 10 

### Did you get some disturbance? 11 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: You know what? Before we 12 

### start by giving names, why don't we -- the folks 13 

### that are online, can you make sure that you mute 14 

### your computers and just use the phone? And then 15 

### let's have Ted go down the list. 16 

### (Microphone feedback.) 17 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: Yeah, let's have Ted go 18 

### down the list and then he'll name the folks that 19 

### are here. Yeah, let's have Ted go down the list 20 

### and then he'll name the folks that are here. 21 

### Yeah, and then once he says your name make sure 226

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### you confirm that you're online. 1 

### MR. BANTLE: Okay. This is Ted Bantle 2 

### from FMCS. If you could confirm you're on the 3 

### line? 4 

### Ishbel Dickens? 5 

### (Microphone feedback.) 6 

### MR. BANTLE: Ishbel? Okay. Mark Ezzo. 7 

### Okay. It appears that everyone is muted. 8 

### We'll start over. 9 

### (Pause.) 10


### MR. BANTLE: Just one moment. 11 

### (Technical difficulties.) 12 

### MR. BANTLE: Okay. It appears that we're 13 

### getting a little feedback from Peter Schneider's 14 

### phone and Robert Peterson or Paterson's phone. 15 

### If you could mute your phone or mute your 16 

### computer that would be greatly appreciated. 17 

### (Microphone feedback.) 18 

### MR. BANTLE: Are we good? I think we're 19 

### good now. 20 

### (Microphone feedback.) 21 

### MR. BANTLE: Yeah. Robert Peterson, it 227

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### appears we're getting a little feedback from your 1 

### phone. 2 

### So we will get started. Is Ishbel 3 

### Dickens on the phone? 4 

### (No audible response.) 5 

### MR. BANTLE: Okay. Mark Ezzo. 6 

### MR. EZZO: I'm here. 7 

### MR. BANTLE: Okay. Richard Hanger? 8 

### MR. HANGER: I am here this morning. 9 

### Good morning. 10 

### MR. BANTLE: Burt Kessler? 11 

### MR. KESSLER: I'm here. 12 

### MR. BANTLE: Emanuel Levy? Emanuel Levy? 13 

### UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: He's not present. 14 

### MR. BANTLE: Okay. Mike Lubliner? 15 

### (No audible response.) 16 

### MR. BANTLE: Okay. Richard Potts. 17 

### MR. POTTS: I'm here. 18 

### MR. BANTLE: Manuel Santana? 19 

### MR. SANTANA: I'm here. 20 

### MR. BANTLE: David Tompos. David Tompos? 21 

### MR. TOMPOS: I'm here. 228

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### MR. BANTLE: Thank you. And Michael 1 

### Wade? 2 

### MR. WADE: Yes. Good morning. 3 

### MR. BANTLE: Is there anyone -- are there 4 

### any working group members on the line that I did 5 

### not call? 6 

### MR. LUTER: Yes, Rob Luter with Lippert. 7 

### MR. BANTLE: Thank you, Rob. 8 

### MR. DRAKE: And Scott Drake, Kentucky. 9 

### MR. BANTLE: Thank you, Scott. It also 10 

### appears that there might be an issue involving 11 

### feedback with Michael Wade's phone. If you could 12 

### mute your computer speakers, or your phone, vice13 

### versa. That would be greatly appreciated. Thank 14


### you. 15 

### MS. HOFFMAN: Okay. Good morning, again. 16 

### Good morning again, Eileen Hoffman. This is a 17 

### meeting of the Manufactured Housing ASRAC Working 18 

### Group. 19 

### As I said, we have a very very full 20 

### agenda. We would like to start, though, with any 21 

### opening remarks from our working group members 229

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### before we move in to some presentations. So why 1 

### don't we turn around and, Lowell, any comments 2 

### before we get started? 3


### MR. UNGER: None. 4 

### MS. HOFFMAN: Okay. John. John Caskey. 5 

### MR. CASKEY: Sure. I always have 6


### comments. 7 

### This is John Caskey from National 8 

### Electrical Manufacturer's Association, and I'm 9 

### the ASRAC representative on the working group. 10 

### And a couple different points. One is that I 11 

### wanted to thank everybody for doing all the work 12 

### that they've done to date, including the Navigant 13 

### and PN&L and DOE staff and all the people sitting 14 

### around the table and on the phone that, you know, 15 

### I've tried to keep up with all the emails and the 16 

### reports and it's just a huge volume of 17 

### information to try and make sense of it all. 18 

### Hopefully we'll do a better job of getting those 19 

### reports, you know, sort of updated today and then 20 

### we'll make sure that everybody is on the same 21 

### page. But just wanted to thank everybody for all 2210

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### the work that they've done so far. 1 

### And sort of going back to the first 2 

### session, you know, my takeaway from the first 3 

### session, from what I understood was our goal as 4 

### an organization, or really you guys as an 5 

### organization, is the goal is to improve overall 6 

### energy efficiency of the manufactured housing 7 

### sector while maintaining its affordability. 8 

### So when I look at what we're doing I keep 9 

### on coming back to that, where we're looking at 10 

### the cost effectiveness of the energy efficiency 11 

### improvements. But then we also, at the end of 12 

### the day, want to look at the affordability. So 13 

### for me the process to really get there, I mean, 14 

### and we've been going through is looking at some 15 

### of the basic assumptions and where are the 16 

### opportunities for energy efficiency in the 17 

### manufactured housing segment. And then having 18 

### the consultants do an analysis on those things to 19 

### come up with the incremental costs for those 20 

### improvements and the savings, and from there you 21 

### can derive the life cycle costs for those 2211

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### particular improvements. 1 

### But as we go through that and even as we 2 

### identify improvements that maybe look cost 3 

### effective from a life cycle cost perspective, 4 

### really need to circle back and look at the people 5 

### that are buying these facilities to make sure 6 

### that they are affordable from their perspective. 7 

### So I don't know what that means at this point, 8 

### but certainly that's something that we need to 9 

### focus back on before we conclude everything. 10 

### The other thing just deals with the 11 

### negotiated rulemaking process overall, having 12 

### been involved with other negotiated rulemaking 13 

### processes, for me personally I think there is 14 

### just a huge amount of value in what you're doing 15 

### by going through all the analysis, by looking at 16 

### the data, by doing different scenarios and 17 

### different runs, and then looking at the date 18 

### after that to see if that data is in the right 19 

### ballpark. And I think that that is hugely 20 

### valuable from my perspective compared to the 21 

### earlier days when DOE would do some -- hire 2212

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### somebody to do some analysis and it seemed like 1 

### as an interested party we sort of lost the 2 

### connection with the analysis. We got what the 3 

### numbers were but didn't really know how they were 4 

### derived, and we didn't know how sort of valuable 5 

### they were and how sort of whether they were 6 

### validated or not. 7 

### So, I think by being involved with this 8 

### process, this negotiated rulemaking process, you 9 

### really have the opportunity to sort of validate 10 

### those numbers and make sure they're in the right 11 

### ballpark. So that in itself is really a 12 

### significant value from my perspective. 13 

### And then the final thing is really that, 14 

### you know, when you look at the schedule we're 15 

### sort of running out of time. So we really need 16 

### to, over the next few days, focus on the things 17 

### that sort of we can control and maybe get away 18 

### from the things we can't control; identify those 19 

### things that we can reach or you as a group can 20 

### reach consensus on. I personally view I'm sort 21 

### of like an innocent bystander; an interested 2213

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### observer but it's really up to you as a member, 1 

### sitting around a table, to come to some consensus 2 

### on, you know, those things that you think you can 3 

### move forward to and try and get them wrapped up 4 

### so that we can go through the rest of the process 5 

### with Department of Energy to get them adopted. 6 

### So that's my speech for the day. 7 

### MS. HOFFMAN: Thank you, John. Thank 8 

### you, John. Any other comments? Keith? 9 

### (No audible response.) 10 

### MS. HOFFMAN: Okay. Robin? Stacy? 11 

### Welcome. Mark? 12 

### MR. WEISS: Thank you. Mark Weiss. Two 13 

### things. First of all I want to thank John for 14 

### his comments regarding the importance of 15 

### affordability, and also say something with regard 16 

### to time. 17 

### I think John is right. There is a 18 

### tremendous amount of information that's been put 19 

### on the table that's been presented, and I think 20 

### we are going to need sufficient time to work 21 

### through that in a proper manner. 2214

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Mark. 1 

### MR. WEISS: From our perspective it's 2 

### more important to get it right than to do it 3 

### quickly. And considering the amount of time 4 

### that's already lapsed since the passage of the 5 

### ISIS statute, I think the onus on us is to take 6 

### the time necessary to do this properly. Thank 7


### you. 8 

### MS. HOFFMAN: Any comments from our 9 

### members on the line? 10 

### MR. LUTER: This is Rob with Lippert. 11 

### I'd just like to echo Mark's feelings that we 12 

### need to get this right the first time. 13 

### MS. DICKENS: Hi, Ellen (sic). This is 14 

### Ishbel. I just wanted to let you know that I 15 

### think everything is working and I'm online and 16 

### listening and hopefully you're hearing me as 17 

### well. 18 

### MS. HOFFMAN: Yes, we are. Thank you. 19 

### If there aren't any other comments at the 20 

### moment -- oh. 21 

### (Discussion about technical 2215

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### difficulties.) 1 

### MR. BANTLE: Hi. This is Ted Bantle from 2 

### FMCS. Just one more note. We have three 3 

### individuals we're getting some feedback issues 4 

### for. Or from. Emanuel Levy, Michael Wade, and 5 

### Peter Schneider. And okay, our recommendation is 6 

### that you just mute your phone when you're not 7 

### speaking. Thank you very much. 8 

### MS. HOFFMAN: Okay. Now, let's get 9 

### started. First on our agenda is DOE Navigant 10 

### will be making quite a presentation. So, 11 

### Matthew. 12 

### And I think it will be available to 13 

### everyone online as well. 14 

### MR. WALKER: All right. Good morning, 15 

### everyone. My name is Matthew Walker from 16 

### Navigant and today I'm just going to go through a 17 

### little bit of information about the LCC Model, 18 

### brief recap from last time when we presented on 19 

### the process, and to give a little more detail on 20 

### the calculations that are used in that analysis 21 

### for those who are interested. And then we can 2216

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### also look at the spreadsheet a little bit, and 1 

### also some of the costs inputs, the straw man in2 

### cost inputs and we'll get into those in a minute. 3 

### So this slide is very familiar. It's 4 

### from last time. I mean, just a reminder, the LCC 5 

### has a balance of first costs and energy cost 6 

### savings, and we're looking for that balance point 7 

### where that investment and the more expensive home 8 

### that's more efficient is offset by the energy 9 

### cost savings. 10 

### The status of the model right now is that 11 

### the structure and calculations are in place, 12 

### we've also included some straw man inputs. And I 13 

### really just stress the straw man nature of that. 14 

### I'll get into it more later, but it's you know, a 15 

### rough estimate based on public available data. 16 

### But we'll get into more of that later. 17 

### And again, another slide from last time. 18 

### Just a reminder on some of the financial 19 

### parameters that are very important to an LCC 20 

### analysis. I know we have a financial subgroup, a 21 

### working subgroup putting together some 2217

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### information on some of these values and that's 1 

### really critical here. The LCC as it was sent out 2 

### yesterday, has initial placeholder values for 3 

### each of these parameters. But ultimately the 4 

### working group will need to agree upon the 5 

### specific values that are selected for the 6 

### analysis. 7 

### So then back to first costs. First cost 8 

### here really just associated with the housing -- 9 

### Sure thing. 10 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: It's Javier. I just have 11 

### a question. Could you go back one slide? 12 

### MR. WALKER: Absolutely. 13 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: You had said that the 14 

### working group was going to determine what these 15 

### components are. But in the analysis that you 16 

### forwarded you gave certain recommendations or you 17 

### plugged in values. 18 

### MR. WALKER: That's correct. 19 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: And are you going to go 20 

### over those to show how you came up with those 21 

### values, like where they came from? 2218

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### MR. WALKER: I think we referred more 1 

### just to discuss what's included in the 2 

### spreadsheet. 3 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. 4 

### MR. WALKER: I think reviewing the 5 

### specific source of each of those is not -- 6 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: Well, no. I don't mean 7 

### the source, but -- 8 

### MR. WALKER: -- as critical. 9 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: -- like -- not the source, 10 

### just the number. 11 

### MR. WALKE: Yeah. 12 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: Okay. Okay. 13 

### MR. BARBOUR: And this is Ed Barbour with 14 

### Navigant. I'll just add, the numbers are in 15 

### there to make sure the model works. 16 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: Uh-huh. 17 

### MR. BARBOUR: And they're placeholders 18 

### based on publicly available data. They're not 19 

### necessarily -- actually on almost all of them, 20 

### none of them have come directly from the working 21 

### group yet. 2219

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: Okay. 1 

### MR. BARBOUR: And so today we're looking 2 

### for a lot of input from the working group on 3 

### those inputs. Not just the financial parameters, 4 

### but also the costs. 5 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: Okay. 6 

### MR. BARBOUR: So we can make it work. 7 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: Excellent. Thank you. 8 

### MR. WALKER: All right. So back to the 9 

### first cost slides. These are these costs 10 

### associated with the housing purchase. In the 11 

### diagram on the left hand side you have the down 12 

### payment and financing fees that happen right in 13 

### the beginning. So those are happening in the 14 

### present day. Down payment is a portion of the 15 

### overall cost of the more expensive home, relating 16 

### to those more efficient measures. 17 

### The initial payment that you're making is 18 

### then added to the mortgage payments and property 19 

### taxes that occur on an annual or a monthly basis 20 

### throughout the life of the loan, or throughout 21 

### the period of analysis that's selected for the 2220

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### LCC. 1 

### And then of course those yearly or 2 

### monthly payments are discounted to the present 3 

### year so that when we're adding the two dollar 4 

### values together they're on the same basis. And 5 

### so the summation of all those monetary 6 

### expenditures results in the total first cost or 7 

### the total housing cost. 8 

### So then operating expenses is the other 9 

### half of the LCC. These are calculated also on an 10 

### annual basis, discounted to their value in the 11 

### present year. The basic process here is that the 12 

### energy plus analysis that PNNL puts together, 13 

### outputs and energy use index, which is an annual 14 

### energy use per square foot, and they provide that 15 

### for each of the codes that's being analyzed, and 16 

### each of the zones that are being analyzed. 17 

### So then those basic energy use numbers 18 

### are converted to dollars by multiplying by the 19 

### fuel cost estimates and things from places like 20 

### the Energy Information Agency. 21 

### Mark, do you have a question? 2221

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### MR. WEISS: Yeah. Mark Weiss, MHERR. If 1 

### you can, how does this type of analytical model 2 

### compare with the methodology that's used by the 3 

### Census Bureau and the American Housing Survey 4 

### with relation to operating costs, including 5 

### energy. Is there any similarity? Is it 6 

### consistent? Can you just expound on that a 7 

### little bit if you can? 8 

### MR. WALKER: Mark, I guess I'm not really 9 

### familiar with the specific numbers that you're 10 

### referring to. 11 

### MR. BARBOUR: Yeah. This is Ed Barbour 12 

### at Navigant. We can look into that. 13 

### MR. WALKER: Yeah. 14 

### MR. BARBOUR: We haven't compared that. 15 

### I mean, typically we compare it with the Energy 16 

### Information Administration's Residential Energy 17 

### Consumption Survey, and that does have a little 18 

### bit of AHS type of data. EIA looks at it, but we 19 

### haven't done that direct comparison. We can do 20 

### that for you and try to get back to you. 21 

### MR. WEISS: Okay. I mean, it's just for 2222

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### quite some time now I've been looking at the AHS 1 

### data and I'm just interested in how your approach 2 

### compares with what they do. 3 

### MR. BARBOUR: Yeah. And Ed again. I'll 4 

### just add that I mean, what we've done here from a 5 

### methodology standpoint is to follow the way we do 6 

### -- or the way the Appliance Standards Program at 7 

### DOE does LCC analysis, which is typically UCOE. 8 

### MR. WEISS: No, I understand that. It's 9 

### just, you know, given the amount of data over the 10 

### number of years that AHS has, just if we do a 11 

### comparison, I just want to compare apples to 12 

### apples. 13 

### MR. WALKER: Okay. Great. So, after the 14 

### energy costs value is calculated for a single 15 

### year we also apply an energy price escalation 16 

### factor to account for the expected rise in energy 17 

### costs over the period of analysis. So, then all 18 

### those years of energy cost savings are then 19 

### discounted back to the present year and that 20 

### becomes your total energy costs savings, or total 21 

### operating expense value. 2223

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### Another factor that could be included 1 

### here is the maintenance cost. The maintenance 2 

### cost would be something -- for some reason when 3 

### you apply one of these more energy efficient 4 

### measures you have to do some incremental 5 

### additional work to keep that item operating 6 

### properly. I think currently that hasn't really 7 

### been identified, but I did just want to continue 8 

### to remind everyone that we do have the 9 

### opportunity to include those costs if we think 10 

### that that's necessary. 11 

### So I will move on to residual value, 12 

### unless there's any other questions. 13 

### Okay. So residual value is the term 14 

### usually used on an LCC analysis for any value of 15 

### the item that you have purchased, the more 16 

### efficient item that you have purchased that still 17 

### has some worth at the end of the period of 18 

### analysis. So this is the same concept as was 19 

### being talked about last time with the resale 20 

### value of the more efficient home. 21 

### So a residual value is something that we 2224

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### have built into the LCC model. We have the 1 

### ability to turn it on and off, depending on how 2 

### the group wants to use it. And currently we've 3 

### used a simple and kind of standard approach to 4 

### this concept, which is that the price of that 5 

### energy efficiency measure, the EEM, is 6 

### depreciated using a straight line method over the 7 

### life of that product. So it's a 30 year 8 

### depreciation, which means that if you're at year 9 

### 15, perhaps we've decided to only analyze a 15 10 

### year period, at the end of that 15 year period 11 

### half the value of the EEM is still in play and 12 

### that would be credited back to the customer, or 13 

### credited back to the end user. And so that's 14 

### that kind of, I guess, is a positive thing for 15 

### developing a cost effective LLC. 16 

### But as we get back to the spreadsheet I 17 

### can show more directly what the impact of that 18 

### residual value is. Were there any questions here 19 

### before we keep going? 20 

### MR. DENNIS: If there's a measure within 21 

### the house that's less than the analysis period is 2225

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### it like reset? Say a product lasts 10 years and 1 

### we're doing 30 years, do you do three cycles for 2 

### that product? Or how does that -- or do you just 3 

### depreciate it over 30 years, even though it's a 4 

### 10 year product? 5 

### MR. WALKER: So, what you're bringing up 6 

### is something that would need to be done if we 7 

### have an EEM, some piece of insulation, something 8 

### that does only have a 10 year life. 9 

### MR. DENNIS: Okay. 10 

### MR. WALKER: But currently I think the 30 11 

### year assumption is pretty safe for a lot of the 12 

### insulation. But depending on what we end up 13 

### agreeing upon for the particular measures that 14 

### are going to be proposed by the group, we might 15 

### need to do what you're talking about. 16 

### MR. DENNIS: Okay. Thanks. 17 

### MR. WALKER: Yeah. 18 

### MS. HOFFMAN: That was Keith Dennis. 19 

### MR. WALKER: All right. I'll keep going. 20 

### So this slide talks about what's in the LCC 21 

### spreadsheet that was sent around yesterday. It 2226

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### includes -- I'm counting right here. It includes 1 

### five efficiency levels, so that's the 2006, 2009, 2 

### 2012, and 2015 ICC, as well as Energy Star. Each 3 

### of those codes is compared to a basic HUD code 4 

### compliant manufactured house. 5 

### The energy data that's associated with 6 

### each of these codes or efficiency levels, again, 7 

### comes from the energy plus output that's been 8 

### distributed a few weeks ago, and that includes 9 

### separate energy use figures for a customer that 10 

### has electric resistance heat, or heat pump, 11 

### natural gas, or propane systems. And each of 12 

### those is analyzed separately through the LCC, but 13 

### they can be rolled up into a weighted average at 14 

### the end. 15 

### MR. LUTER: Question. 16


### MR. WALKER: Sure. 17 

### MR. LUTER: Rob with Lippert. Which 18 

### Energy Star program did you use for this 19 

### analysis? 20 

### MR. HAGERMAN: This is Joe Hagerman, DOE. 21 

### We worked with Emanuel Levy to get the Energy 2227

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### Star for manufactured home requirements. And 1 

### that's what's been modeled by PNNL. 2 

### MR. LUTER: Thank you. 3 

### MR. WALKER: Okay. So that's the energy 4 

### side of things, and just again, the straw man EEM 5 

### costs that are currently populated in the LCC 6 

### model are estimates. They're based on publicly 7 

### available data. They're not necessarily 8 

### manufactured housing specific, but we do expect 9 

### that they would be certainly within an order of 10 

### magnitude and provide a nice place for a 11 

### discussion for today. 12 

### But again, each of those values will have 13 

### to be agreed upon by the working group, and 14 

### that's something that Emanuel Levy has been 15 

### working on to collect more specific cost data 16 

### from industry. 17 

### I think that probably covers the 18 

### scenarios and data that's included in the LCC. 19 

### Mark? 20 

### MR. WEISS: Mark Weiss. Could you 21 

### identify some of the public sources, referring 2228

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### to? 1 

### MR. WALKER: Sure. There are several. 2 

### There was a PNNL study on the cost effectiveness 3 

### of the 2012 ICC. There is -- go ahead. 4 

### MR. HAGERMAN: This is Joe Hagerman, DOE. 5 

### I believe that document that you're talking about 6 

### is what's known as the determinations. Is that 7 

### right? Or part of the determination? 8 

### MR. BARBOUR: Yeah. This is Ed Barbour 9 

### with Navigant. 10 

### So a lot of the cost data came from 11 

### whatever we could find publicly available. So it 12 

### included the PNNL IECC 2012 TST as part of the 13 

### determination of rulemaking. It included reports 14 

### that fed into that, include I think it was 15 

### Faithful and Gould, which was a report 16 

### commissioned by PNNL to look at the costs 17 

### associated with the 2012 standard. 18 

### We also used comments received in the 19 

### previous round of the rulemaking to start this, 20 

### including Tom Eckman's, as well as other from 21 

### certain manufacturers. We also tried to use data 2229

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### from other residential sectors like the EPA 1 

### Energy Star program in terms of air sealing. And 2 

### we can go through them in detail as we walk 3 

### through them. 4 

### But, you know, I'll caveat that in terms 5 

### of the data. A lot of it is based on general 6 

### residential or standard residential construction, 7 

### not manufactured housing. We had to be able to 8 

### put in a cost data into the model in order to see 9 

### if it works. So what we've done is tried to 10 

### match those requirements for manufactured housing 11 

### with the costs associated in standard stick-build 12 

### residential. So that's what you'll see, a lot of 13 

### the costs were associated with that. Some may be 14 

### tailored to manufactured housing, and we can talk 15 

### a little bit about that. But they are not costs 16 

### that we received necessarily directly from 17 

### manufacturers. At least not in this go around. 18 

### So just to note. 19 

### MR. CASKEY: Yeah, John Caskey at NEMA. 20 

### And unfortunately my question that sort of keeps 21 

### on hanging with me goes back to the first cost. 2230

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### And how is -- can you refresh my memory on how 1 

### land is treated? In manufacture housing sector 2 

### is it still just the same similarity as 3 

### traditional single-family where the cost of the 4 

### land is embedded into the mortgage itself, or any 5 

### of these properties -- or any of these homes put 6 

### on leased space and you have like a monthly lease 7


### cost? 8 

### MS. STARKEY: Lois Starkey, MHI. Sorry I 9 

### was late. We estimate that about 70 to 80 10 

### percent, let's say, I think it was in last year's 11 

### census it was 75 percent of all manufactured 12 

### homes that are sold are placed on real property. 13 

### If you average that over a 10 year period we 14 

### would estimate it's about two thirds. It 15 

### fluctuates from year to year, but it looks like 16 

### the trend is going up. Manufactured homes, that 17 

### amount, 75 we say is going on personal property. 18 

### I mean, on real property. 19 

### However you can't say that 75 percent are 20 

### financed as traditional real estate. And we 21 

### don't have a good handle. We are trying to get a 2231

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### better handle on what percentage of that 75 1 

### percent say is financed as real property because 2 

### some homes that are put on real property that 3 

### might be somebody's farm, or they don't want to 4 

### encumber the property, so they'll finance it as a 5 

### chattel mortgage. So it's really hard to tell 6 

### how, in terms of how the land is treated, but you 7 

### can -- and I think the home builders have done 8 

### some -- they did a modeling study to break out 9 

### how much the land would cost. And I think you 10 

### can get -- that data could be obtained. 11 

### Obviously it varies by market. 12 

### So, but when we talk about the cost of 13 

### manufactured housing we generally break it out so 14 

### that you know it's construction cost, new 15 

### construction cost, it's without the land, and 16 

### then you add in the land. 17 

### MR. CASKEY: Okay. So sort of -- thank 18 

### you very much for that information. That's very 19 

### helpful. 20 

### So, do you think those sort of 21 

### assumptions are reflected in the analysis that 2232

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### you've worked on so far? 1 

### MR. WALKER: Yeah. I would say part of 2 

### that. So the element of that that's included is 3 

### the proportion of customers that follows the 4 

### traditional real estate loans versus the chattel 5 

### loans. 6 

### I think something that I should probably 7 

### point out is that capturing the land value is not 8 

### a key component of the LCC because the more 9 

### efficient home doesn't require a different piece 10 

### of land. It can go on the same place so that 11 

### that doesn't represent an incremental cost going 12 

### from one code to the next. But the types of 13 

### financing is definitely included. Okay. 14 

### So this fuel and equipment type 15 

### distribution, this was a topic that was discussed 16 

### a bit at the last meeting. It is another 17 

### important element of the LCC in that it gives us 18 

### the ability to, like I was saying, aggregate or 19 

### average the LCC results corresponding to a 20 

### customer that has one of the four different types 21 

### of heating systems that we've analyzed. 2233

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: I'm sorry. Let's, if we 1 

### can, let's just do like a five minute function 2 

### break here so that way we're not distracted by 3 

### anything. Just so that we could clean this up 4 

### real fast. All right? Just for those of you at 5 

### home, we had a little spill that we just need to 6 

### clean up real quick. 7 

### So we'll just take five minutes, so that 8


### way -- 9 

### MS. HOFFMAN: It wasn't an oil spill. 10 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: -- you get our full 11 

### attention. 12 

### MS. HOFFMAN: Just a coffee spill. 13 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: Yeah. 14 

### MS. HOFFMAN: But when we come back we'll 15 

### ask the public members to introduce themselves 16 

### when we come back. 17 

### (Off the record from 9:46 a.m. until 9:49 18 

### a.m.) 19 

### MS. HOFFMAN: Okay. Let's get our seats 20 

### and start again. Thank you. 21 

### We have a question first on the 2234

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### presentation from Michael Wade. And do you want 1 

### to read it out, Matthew, and -- 2 

### MR. WALKER: Sure. Yeah, we have a 3 

### question from Michael Wade, and I think it will 4 

### apply better once we get into the spreadsheet 5 

### overview. 6 

### MS. HOFFMAN: When we get to the 7 

### spreadsheet. Okay. 8 

### MR. WALKER: But I have it up here next 9 

### to my computer so we won't forget it. 10 

### MS. HOFFMAN: Okay. Great. 11 

### MR. WALKER: Okay. So I think we're 12 

### ready to get back into this. We were on -- yes? 13 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: I thought we were going to 14 

### have the folks in the public introduce 15 

### themselves. 16 

### MS. HOFFMAN: Oh, yes. Right. Yeah, we 17 

### have a number of people from the public, both 18 

### online and also in our audience here. If you 19 

### would just introduce yourself, starting with the 20 

### people here in the room? 21 

### MS. PONTILLO: Good morning. This is Pam 2235

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### Pontillo and I'm from the Office of Department of 1 

### Energy, Office of Conflict Prevention Resolution. 2 

### MR. HUANG: Good morning. My name is 3 

### David Huang. I'm a mediator from the Federal 4 

### Mediation Conciliation Service. 5 

### MS. HOFFMAN: Thank you. And now who is 6 

### -- yes? Yes, sir. 7 

### MR. MENLIN: I am Rick Menlin. I am with 8 

### the Department of Housing Urban Development. 9 

### MS. HOFFMAN: Thank you. Who is on the 10 

### line that is from the public? 11 

### UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: We don't have them 12 

### (inaudible). 13 

### MS. HOFFMAN: Oh, okay. So maybe we can 14 

### just read their names? We're going to read your 15



### names. 16 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: Yeah, we have two. Right 17 

### now we have Robert Peterson and Amy Barnard 18 

### (phonetic). 19 

### UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Uh-huh. 20 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: Okay. 21 

### UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: And Robert Lucas. 2236

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: And Robert Lucas. 1 

### MS. HOFFMAN: Okay. All right. Thank 2


### you. 3 

### MR. WEISS: What I was reaching for so 4 

### recklessly a few moments ago was the GAO report 5 

### that came out in July 2014. That indicates 6 

### that -- 7 

### MS. HOFFMAN: That's Mark Weiss speaking. 8 

### MR. WEISS: Thank you. Mark Weiss. 9 

### According to the Manufactured Homes Survey, in 10 

### 2013 70.2 percent of manufactured homes were 11 

### placed on leased or owned land outside of a 12 

### community. 13 

### MR. WALKER: All right. So this is 14 

### Matthew Walker again from Navigant. We're on the 15 

### fuel and equipment type distribution slide. And 16 

### I was just reviewing that this is important 17 

### because this allows the LCC to aggregate 18 

### different runs for customers that are using 19 

### different heating systems if we want to look at a 20 

### single number that represents an entire zone. 21 

### The source of data that's used for the 2237

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### numbers that are currently populating the LCC 1 

### which are again, numbers that need to be agreed 2 

### upon by the working group, are based on the 3 

### Census Bureau 2011 American Housing Survey. I 4 

### give the table below at the bottom of the slide, 5 

### that corresponds to that data, you can see that 6 

### they provide information specific to different 7 

### regions as well as rolling that up into a 8 

### national average. 9 

### And just looking at the numbers, that you 10 

### can kind of see that the electric furnace or the 11 

### resistance is pretty popular, at near 50 percent; 12 

### natural gas, 21; heat pump 17; oil is hardly 13 

### used; and then propane at 12 percent on the 14 

### national average. And of course it varies once 15 

### you look in particular regions. 16 

### There are other sources available and 17 

### they generally support the HSS estimates, but 18 

### they -- you know, they are focused on perhaps 19 

### different sectors or different types of people. 20 

### Any questions here? 21 

### (No audible response.) 2238

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### MR. WALKER: Great. 1 

### MR. SANTANA: This is Manny with CAPCO. 2 

### MR. WALKER: Yes, Manny. 3 

### MR. SANTANA: On that (indiscernible)is 4 

### that just the fuel per percentage of the entire 5 

### population, or just manufactured homes? 6 

### MR. WALKER: Yeah, this is just 7 

### manufactured homes. So it's the portion of 8 

### manufactured home customers or end-users that are 9 

### using each of these heating types. 10 

### MR. LEVY: Matthew, Emanuel Levy. Can 11 

### you hear me? 12


### MR. WALKER: Yes. 13 

### MR. LEVY: First of all I want to say 14 

### that what you've done here with your spreadsheets 15 

### is terrific. It makes it very easy to look at 16 

### parametrics, and particularly identify quickly 17 

### what the important variables are. 18 

### And I imagine, I haven't looked at this 19 

### exhaustively, but I would imagine this data is 20 

### pretty important to the results. And my 21 

### suspicion is that the percentage distributions 2239

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### are actually a little bit different than this for 1 

### new construction. That this -- the AHS data is 2 

### historic data, or it's for all houses in place. 3 

### And more current construction, I think, has a 4 

### different profile of equipment selection. 5 

### MR. BARBOUR: So this is Ed Barbour with 6 

### Navigant. Just a little bit of clarifying. 7 

### So this is actually an analysis that PNNL 8 

### did as part of their first runs in order to 9 

### create the different packages and do the energy 10 

### plus runs. This comes from the micro-data for 11 

### the American Housing Survey, and it looks at only 12 

### manufactured housing that had been put in place 13 

### from 1990 to 2011, to serve as a proxy for new 14 

### construction. 15 

### We've received a number of comments that 16 

### this is probably not quite the today's 17 

### distribution in terms of fuel types. We did get 18 

### data from Michael Lubliner for the Pacific 19 

### Northwest. But right now, from a national 20 

### standpoint in terms of what we had access to, 21 

### this was the best source. And so that's -- and 2240

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### Emanuel, you were right. It does have an impact 1 

### when you look at one number across the nation. 2 

### But we wanted to present this in order to get 3 

### feedback as to whether or not this is the type of 4 

### distribution this working group wants to do. 5 

### Anyway. 6 

### MR. LEVY: Right. And I think that 7 

### that's the right approach. 8 

### I think it might be worthwhile to talk 9 

### with some of the manufacturers of equipment 10 

### because there are only a handful and they would 11 

### know what they sell. I suspect you'll find a 12 

### much higher percentage of natural gas being sold. 13 

### And heat pump is an aftermarket item. 14 

### We have some anecdotal information about 15 

### that because all the Energy Star homes must be -- 16 

### must have a heat pump. And that would be at 17 

### least 15 percent right there. 18 

### So I think we can help you a little bit, 19 

### get better data. But this certainly is one of 20 

### those areas where the data is pretty -- the 21 

### results are pretty sensitive to this assumption. 2241

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### MR. WALKER: Yeah. Agreed. Thanks 1 

### Emanuel. We also got another question from Mike 2 

### Lubliner. He asks, which states are represented 3 

### by the west. That's the west region that's here 4 

### on this table. We'll have to get back to you, 5 

### Michael and we can make a list. But thanks for 6 

### the question. 7 

### MR. LEVY: Manny again from CAVCO. You 8 

### know, I recognize that when you add up the total, 9 

### say for the south, you don't add up to 100. 10 

### What's the -- I guess, what's the tolerance? 11 

### MR. WALKER: Yeah, Manny, the reason that 12 

### the numbers don't always add up to 100 is because 13 

### there are some other sort of fringe fuel types. 14 

### MR. LEVY: Okay. 15 

### MR. WALKER: And so if I was to take 16 

### these numbers into our own analysis we account 17 

### for the sort of missing small percentage so that 18 

### it adds up to 100. 19 

### MR. LEVY: Okay. 20 

### MR. WALKER: But that's a good point. 21 

### Okay. So I'm going to move on to the 2242

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### slide that talks about how to use the LCC model. 1 

### And we will also look at the spreadsheet itself, 2 

### but this just gives a general overview. 3 

### There are toggles on that inputs and 4 

### summary tab that change the scenario viewable in 5 

### the calculations throughout the spreadsheet. So 6 

### that's where you have the opportunity to select 7 

### the 2006 IECC, or maybe the Energy Star 8 

### efficiency levels. You also have the option to 9 

### run the analysis for a single section versus a 10 

### double section home. 11 

### There's then a button on the results tab 12 

### that would tabulate just the LCC savings number, 13 

### which is that final summary value, for every 14 

### scenario. And that gives you a one-stop-shop to 15 

### compare all the zones at all the different codes 16 

### for just the LCC savings value. 17 

### And again, the LCC savings value is the 18 

### summation of the first costs and those energy 19 

### costs. So a positive LCC savings number means 20 

### that the customer might be gaining value and a 21 

### negative number is when the first costs outweigh 2243

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### the energy savings. 1 

### Also on the inputs and summary tab you 2 

### can alter the financial inputs. So that's just a 3 

### quick spot you can put in, you know, a 10 percent 4 

### interest rate on your loan versus a 7 percent. 5 

### And all the other values update instantly and you 6 

### can see the impact of that particular assumption. 7 

### And then I mention on the residual value 8 

### slide that we have that calculation included to 9 

### be able to account for a resale value. There's 10 

### also a toggle to turn that calculation on and off 11 

### so we can see what the impact of including that 12 

### resale value is. 13 

### And then we have a table here at the 14 

### bottom of the slide that just gives an example of 15 

### the LCC results. You kind of have four 16 

### categories of values. They get rolled up 17 

### together. You have the incremental home cost. 18 

### So that's the summation of your down payment, 19 

### initial loan fees, as well as all of the monthly 20 

### mortgage payments and annual property tax 21 

### payments. All rolled up into one number. That's 2244

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### compared against the energy cost savings number 1 

### which is again the energy savings that happens in 2 

### every year rolled up into a single number. 3 

### So the reason the incremental home cost 4 

### is negative is because in that case the customer 5 

### is spending more money, so it's kind of a -- it's 6 

### more money out of their pocket compared to the 7 

### energy cost savings where money is actually going 8 

### into their pocket. 9 

### So you add together the numbers of the 10 

### incremental home costs, the energy cost savings, 11 

### and the residual, and you get the total LCC 12 

### savings. And this is the type of summary table 13 

### that's provided in some of the other areas of the 14 

### spreadsheet. 15 

### So I guess, Joe, I guess we have a choice 16 

### here. We can look at the cost overview, or we 17 

### could go to the spreadsheet. 18 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: Before you do, can you go 19 

### -- yeah, this is Javier. 20 

### Can you go back to the fuel piece there? 21 

### And this is something that the work group is 2245

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### going to have to determine as far as what's the 1 

### fuel distribution? Or do we just use what's 2 

### provided here as, I guess as the starting point? 3 

### MR. WALKER: I think your first option is 4 

### what we want to do. And Emanuel was talking 5 

### about some of the possible changes to these 6 

### numbers and how important it was. 7 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: Okay. 8 

### MR. WALKER: So this is kind of a best 9 

### estimate that we came up with for publicly 10 

### available national data. 11 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: Okay. And Emanuel, is 12 

### that something that you're working on then? 13 

### MR. LEVY: Can you hear me? 14 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: Yeah. 15 

### MR. LEVY: Can you hear me? 16 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: Yeah. 17 

### MR. LEVY: We're not currently working on 18 

### this. It would be an easy matter for us to do a 19 

### little bit of digging here. Particularly as I 20 

### mentioned earlier with some of the equipment 21 

### manufacturers, because there are only a handful 2246

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### of them. 1 

### MS. STARKEY: This is (inaudible). 2 

### MR. WALKER: The mic is not on. 3 

### MS. STARKEY: Lois Starkey from MMHI. 4 

### Yes, I think I can get with Emanuel and we can 5 

### get that information. We've got members who are 6 

### providing these -- not all of them. But as 7 

### Emanuel said, there's only a handful so I think 8 

### we can -- we'll certainly try our best to get 9 

### what we can get. 10 

### MR. HAGERMAN: And this is Joe Hagerman. 11 

### Mark, is that something also you could probably 12 

### get from your members as well? 13 

### MR. WEISS: I'll see what I can do. 14 

### MR. HAGERMAN: Okay. Great. 15 

### Spreadsheet. 16 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: So then, just to be clear 17 

### then, so Lois, Manny, and Mark will try to -- I'm 18 

### sorry, Emanuel will try to gather the fuel data; 19 

### the fuel numbers. Is that accurate? 20 

### MR. LEVY: Yes, we'll do that. 21 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: Okay. How long would that 2247

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### take, you think? 1 

### MR. LEVY: Lois, do you want to go on 2 

### record? 3 

### MS. STARKEY: Yeah. I don't know that I 4 

### can get it tomorrow, but you know -- 5 

### MS. HOFFMAN: In the next seven days? 6 

### MS. STARKEY: Oh, definitely. Yeah. I 7 

### can get it before the next meeting. 8 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: Okay. And then forward 9 

### that to Joe -- 10 

### MS. STARKEY: Yeah. 11 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: -- and then if you could 12 

### forward it on to Navigant to -- 13


### MS. STARKEY: Sure. 14 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: Great. Thanks. 15 

### MR. WALKER: Okay. Well, I think the how 16 

### to use the model slide segues nicely into the 17 

### overview of the spreadsheet. So I think we'll go 18 

### that direction if everyone is ready. 19 

### UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: You should ask if 20 

### there are any comments, questions on the phone. 21 

### MR. WALKER: Are there any other 2248

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### questions on the phone, though, before I move to 1 

### the spreadsheet? 2 

### (No audible response.) 3 

### MR. WALKER: Okay. Javier, can you make 4 

### sure I'm getting -- is this viewable on this 5 

### webinar? 6 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: Yeah. 7 

### (Setting up the PowerPoint presentation.) 8 

### MR. WALKER: Okay. So there's a lot of 9 

### detail on this spreadsheet and I'll try to keep 10 

### the overview rather short, but feel free to stop 11 

### me and send me down any specific questions along 12 

### the way as you see fit. 13 

### I think I'll just start off with a 14 

### question from Michael Wade. I may not be able to 15 

### answer it on the fly, but we'll see. 16 

### He asks, in the inputs and summary tab 17 

### why does the cost of the name located in column J 18 

### not stay constant when the analysis period 19 

### changes? 20 

### I think he's referring to what I'm trying 21 

### to highlight here in my Quickview LLC Summary. 2249

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### That's the incremental home cost. The reason 1 

### that does not stay constant is because as the 2 

### analysis period changes the number of months of 3 

### mortgage payment that's captured in the 4 

### incremental home cost changes, and you might 5 

### wonder, well, what happens to the rest of that 6 

### money? Well, it can be captured in the residual 7 

### value if we turn that on. And that's something 8 

### we can talk about, but Michael, hopefully that 9 

### answers your question, at least for now. 10 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: If I remember correctly, 11 

### also what you're saying though, is that if we do 12 

### get into that, I think it may have been Robin, if 13 

### I'm not mistaken, that was saying that if we get 14 

### into something like that model then that residual 15 

### formula becomes fairly complicated. Is that 16


### accurate? 17 

### MR. WALKER: That's right. I mean, it 18 

### could be complicated. I was presenting earlier 19 

### that we've currently implemented a simpler 20 

### strategy where it's a simple linear depreciation. 21 

### But there are other factors that you could take 2250

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### into play, such as the ability for a customer to 1 

### resell, you know, an R30 ceiling, versus an R38 2 

### ceiling. I think is that -- 3 

### MR. ROY: This is Robin. It can be 4 

### complicated, I supposed. 5 

### MR. WALKER: Okay. 6 

### MR. ROY: And I did raise my concern 7 

### about such a complication. On the other hand 8 

### there is great interest in thinking of what the 9 

### first buyer's perspective would be if it was 10 

### again a first buyer. 11 

### And to that end there was some 12 

### information that was brought forward. The NATA 13 

### Guide, which gave some valuation direction, which 14 

### is fairly specific for Energy Star, for an 15 

### example, which I think you can extrapolate from 16 

### in lieu of better information. So that's 17 

### actually pretty nice. 18 

### I think I've circulated that NATA Guide 19 

### that Emanuel Levy was kind enough to provide. I 20 

### think others will provide additional information, 21 

### but as a starting point, and if there's nothing 2251

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### else, it's not that complicated. 1 

### MS. EPPERSON: This is Stacy. And Robin, 2 

### so you know, at the last minute we held back the 3 

### NATA data because it was dated 2011 and we're 4 

### just getting an update on it, so they don't have 5 

### it just yet. Okay. 6 

### MR. UNGER: This is Lowell Unger. Can I 7 

### check from what you said? Do I understand that 8 

### if you're analyzing a period which is shorter 9 

### than the mortgage, or the loan period, or one of 10 

### the loan periods, that you're including in the 11 

### cost the down payment. I don't know if you have 12 

### any homes which have no loans, and then loan 13 

### payments only through the end of the period that 14 

### you're analyzing. Is that -- 15 

### MR. WALKER: That's right. And I think 16 

### we'll think about this one a little more off line 17 

### too. That's a good question. 18 

### MS. HOFFMAN: Before we get going, 19 

### continue, we have a point of information from 20 

### Michael Lubliner for the committee looking at 21 

### fuel type. He says he would caution on using any 2252

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### higher gas percentage unless it's propane. He 1 

### would caution on using aftermarket heat pumps 2 

### data not installed at a plant. So, for the 3 

### Committee to entertain. Thank you. 4 

### MR. WALKER: Okay. So let me just try to 5 

### go through kind of a how-to tutorial to use this 6 

### model. I'll try to kind of follow the handouts 7 

### that you also may have picked up if you're here 8 

### in the room. But the screen works too. 9 

### So the first page on the handout and the 10 

### screen, the tab that I have on the screen right 11 

### now, is the inputs and summary tab, and this is 12 

### where you can toggle some of those scenarios that 13 

### I'm talking about. So here there's a drop-down 14 

### box where you can select one of the different IEC 15 

### codes, or Energy Star. Right now we have 2015. 16 

### You can select either a single or double 17 

### section home. Right now I have a single section 18 

### home. 19 

### The economic growth case affects the way 20 

### the energy costs escalate over the 30 years. The 21 

### reference is kind of the standard scenario, so 2253

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### we'll just leave it there. 1 

### And then we move down into another 2 

### section, which I've called financial inputs. And 3 

### here's where you see lots of the numbers that 4 

### correspond to the parameters that we had on one 5 

### of the second slides I presented earlier. 6 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: I'm sorry. Let me slow 7 

### you down just a -- 8


### MR. WALKER: Sure. 9 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: Let me slow you down for 10 

### just a minute. 11 

### All right. I wanted to slow you down 12 

### just because I was pretty impressed with what you 13 

### just did there with the economic growth thing. I 14 

### didn't know Excel could do that so I learned 15 

### something else today. That's my second learning 16 

### for today. 17 

### But does everyone else understand that? 18 

### So when you have -- if you have this spreadsheet 19 

### here, that you could play around with that? Can 20 

### you show how to do that again? 21 

### MR. WALKER: So, I think a better example 2254

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### is looking at the efficiency level. Is that one 1 

### also interesting? 2 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: Okay. Yes. Yeah. 3 

### MR. WALKER: So, if I'm wanting to know 4 

### the LCC savings associated with a particular code 5 

### or a particular efficiency level, I can click 6 

### here and the cell will be seven. It gives me a 7 

### lot of options. The custom levels aren't valid 8 

### right now, but they are sort placeholders for any 9 

### future runs we want to do, and I could select the 10 

### 2009 IECC and you can see that all the numbers on 11 

### the green table updated. 12 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: Okay. 13 

### MR. WALKER: I'm just going to put it 14 

### back to 2015 because I think that's a nice one to 15 

### look at -- 16 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: Okay. 17 

### MR. WALKER: -- right now, but they all 18 

### are functional. 19 

### MR. LUTER: Question, please? 20 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: Yeah. 21 

### MR. LUTER: Okay. Rob with Lippert. 2255

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### What is the baseline for savings? You indicate 1 

### that incremental home costs in that indicate 2 

### savings, but versus what? Baseline HUD or -- 3 

### MR. WALKER: You're correct. Baseline 4 

### HUD is the reference point for all of the 5 

### incremental cost assumptions, as well as the 6 

### energy use. So baseline HUD represents the cost 7 

### and energy use reference point. 8 

### MR. LUTER: Okay. Thank you. 9 

### MR. LEVY: Matthew. It's Emanuel Levy. 10 

### Can you hear me? 11 

### MR. WALKER: Yes, I can. 12 

### MR. LEVY: Can you scroll one column to 13 

### the right so we can see the last column in the 14 

### table. 15 

### MR. WALKER: Oh. 16 

### MR. LEVY: Yep. So, am I correct in 17 

### interpreting what's happening here is that when 18 

### you compare HUD against, in this case, IECC 2015, 19 

### for single section home, for example in a 20 

### location like Baltimore, the cumulative cost of 21 

### doing that is 1934, and the cumulative savings is 2256

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### 5440, for a net total savings of 3506? 1 

### MR. WALKER: That's correct. 2 

### MR. LEVY: So whenever you have a 3 

### positive in the LCC savings column, what it 4 

### suggests is that more efficiency, even more than 5 

### 2015, is cost effective? 6 

### MR. WALKER: That is correct. And I do 7 

### just want to put in another plug for the caveat 8 

### of the fact that the (indiscernible) right now is 9 

### straw man. And so we shouldn't get too concerned 10 

### about the particular results right now. But that 11 

### is a correct interpretation of what we have on 12 

### the screen right now. 13 

### MR. LEVY: Okay. And the simple pay back 14 

### is a very useful piece of information because 15 

### what it's suggesting is that the specific set of 16 

### assumptions you've made result in a simple 17 

### payback of 11.4, but given that set of 18 

### assumptions you can probably go even farther than 19 

### that and still be cost effective. 20 

### MR. WALKER: Yeah, I mean, it's a 21 

### possibility. If another energy efficiency 2257

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### measure that was higher performing than IECC 2015 1 

### existed and it also was at a cost effective price 2 

### point, it's a possibility. 3 

### MR. LEVY: Well certainly in the southern 4 

### zones there will be efficiency measures which are 5 

### available to get beyond the levels that you've 6 

### shown there. 7 

### MR. WALKER: Okay. 8 

### MR. SANTANA: This is Manny with CAVCO. 9 

### Now the home costs, are those mostly based on 10 

### material costs? So when you said baseline HUD, 11 

### you know, the incremental home costs, or this is 12 

### how much more it's going to cost a baseline HUD. 13 

### So what are you using for say Zone 1A in Miami? 14 

### What are you using insulation level? 15 

### MR. WALKER: You said insulation? 16 

### MR. SANTANA: Yeah. 17 

### MR. WALKER: Well, I can't show that very 18 

### easily with the spreadsheet I have up right now, 19 

### but we can look at PNNL's Energy Plus output, 20 

### which provided the particular R values associated 21 

### with the 2015 code for Zone 1A, for either the 2258

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### wall or ceiling, or whichever component you're 1 

### interested in. And that would be the type of 2 

### insulation that was assumed when we applied a 3 

### cost value. 4 

### MR. SANTANA: Okay. 5 

### MR. WALKER: I just don't have a good 6 

### visual for that right now. 7 

### MR. SANTANA: Okay. But when you say 8 

### that this is how the 2015 IECC compares is it 9 

### 2015 prescriptive path? You know, so the 10 

### insulation, those that are given in the chart, 11 

### the IECC? 12 

### MR. BARBOUR: Yeah. This is Ed Barbour 13 

### with Navigant. It's the 2015 IECC PNNL runs. 14 

### And in some cases they've made assumptions in 15 

### terms of where you can get to in terms of 16 

### insulation levels and different components. 17 

### So what is shown in here directly match 18 

### what PNNL did from the Energy Plus runs in order 19 

### to come up with the energy savings associated 20 

### with the different IECCs as well as the HUD code, 21 

### which is the baseline. 2259

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### Matthew is going to go through individual 1 

### component costs that were assumed, or at least 2 

### placed in here. And again, it is a straw man, to 3 

### try to get feed back from the working group on 4 

### where we are, as well as to start to solicit, you 5 

### know, some real costs and real data from the 6 

### Manufactured Housing Group. So. 7 

### MR. SANTANA: Okay. Okay. You know, now 8 

### how were things like say whole house tightness, 9 

### you know, how was the incremental cost of that 10 

### assumed or figured? 11 

### MR. WALKER: Manny, we do have some 12 

### slides that we're going to get to after I run 13 

### through the spreadsheet that will have the 14 

### particular ceiling or tightness levels, and the 15 

### cost associated with those. I think it might be 16 

### easier to handle your question then if you don't 17 

### mind waiting. 18 

### MR. SANTANA: Yeah, that's fine. 19 

### MR. WALKER: Okay. Great. 20 

### MR. SANTANA: Thanks. 21 

### MR. LUTER: Question, please? 2260

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### MR. WALKER: Go ahead. 1 

### MR. LUTER: Rob with Lippert. Just a 2 

### point of clarification. Incremental home cost in 3 

### this slide is manufactured cost, correct? 4 

### MR. WALKER: Well, that's actually -- I 5 

### want to be sure I know what you're saying. It's 6 

### the price that the customer experiences when they 7 

### go to purchase the more efficient home, as the 8 

### retail price. 9 

### MR. LUTER: Okay. So it's the street 10 

### price or retail price. Okay. 11 

### MR. WALKER: Correct. And that's 12 

### certainly where we want to be once we have agreed 13 

### upon those costs. If you find these numbers not 14 

### to be representative of the retail, that's where 15 

### we want to go later on. 16 

### MR. LUTER: Understood. 17 

### MR. WALKER: Yeah. 18 

### MR. LUTER: I agree that retail is what 19 

### you need to look at but I'm not sure how we got 20 

### there on this analysis. 21 

### MR. WALKER: Right. 2261

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### MR. LUTER: And I’m hoping to find out. 1 

### MR. KESSLER: This is Bert at Palm 2 

### Harbor. I've got the spreadsheet up on the 3 

### screen that was sent yesterday. 4 

### MR. WALKER: Okay. 5 

### MR. KESSLER: And I don't have column N. 6 

### MR. WALKER: Yeah, I was afraid someone 7 

### might ask that. 8 

### MR. KESSLER: The simple payback. 9 

### MR. WALKER: When I made the printouts, 10 

### for the people that are in the room, I thought 11 

### that the simple payback should be brought to a 12 

### higher level view, so that it didn't have to be 13 

### found at a lower level of the spreadsheet. So we 14 

### can provide the updated version to you. But the 15 

### simple payback numbers are on a different tab and 16 

### I'll show you where those are. But I thought 17 

### that they were a nice one to have here on the 18 

### summary table. It seems like Emanuel enjoyed 19 

### looking at them too. 20 

### MR. HAGERMAN: Joe Hagerman. Is that 21 

### something that we could circulate at break or 2262

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### something? 1 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: It looks like it's trying 2 

### to do it right now, so -- 3 

### MR. HAGERMAN: Okay. Great. 4 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: -- you all should get it 5 

### here in just a minute soon as -- it just went 6 

### through so you could check your e-mail in just a 7 

### few seconds. 8 

### MR. HAGERMAN: Is there any other changes 9 

### in that new version that you sent out; that's 10 

### being sent out right now that you want to tell 11 

### everybody about? So there's no surprises. 12 

### MR. WALKER: No, this is the substantive 13 

### change. I think you might find that column J -- 14 

### or cell J5 used to be called Home Cost, and I 15 

### added the word "incremental" to emphasize that 16 

### point. But no, no other surprises. 17 

### Okay. So yeah, thanks for working with 18



### us. 19 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: Lowell, you had a 20 

### question? 21 

### MR. WALKER: It's a living model. 2263

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### MR. UNGER: Silly random question. When 1 

### I look at this you have about a dozen regions or 2 

### so, and I think for equipment types, and you sum 3 

### over the equipment types. But I don't have a 4 

### sense how to look at the regions. Do you have 5 

### any information on how many manufactured homes 6 

### there are in each of these regions? 7 

### MR. WALKER: I think we do. I almost 8 

### think we've distributed a map in one of the 9 

### earlier meetings. I think that's something we 10 

### could get back to you on. 11 

### MR. UNGER: Yeah. Because I wasn't 12 

### expecting an immediate answer, but -- 13 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: Yeah, we -- 14 

### MR. UNGER: -- I would be interested in 15 

### that so I could kind of look. 16 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: Yeah. 17 

### MR. BARBOUR: This is Ed Barbour with 18 

### Navigant. Yeah, we can submit that and actually 19 

### that's another piece of information we should 20 

### look for the working group to look at. And 21 

### that's the distribution by climate zones in terms 2264

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### of stars and percentage of homes. Total number. 1 

### Well, actually, that's how it weights. So if, 2 

### you know, for example if -- and we've assumed, 3 

### you know, the majority of the placements are in 4 

### the south and the southwest, and they have the 5 

### larger percentage of the total that comes in, as 6 

### well as we've done the fuel costs, the weighting 7 

### costs by the different regions that we showed 8 

### earlier. We've mapped that and that's actually 9 

### what you're seeing there, until we get to the 10 

### national number. But we see the fuel costs are 11 

### what weights everything from Miami, Houston, 12 

### Phoenix, those areas. 13 

### So we can show how we map that. 14 

### MR. WALKER: Yeah. And you make a good 15 

### point because we have not rolled up those 12 16 

### zones into a single number, which is what Lowell 17 

### was asking about. 18 

### MR. UNGER: At least have some 19 

### information toward that. 20 

### MR. WALKER: Yeah. 21 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: Ed, did you say that you 2265

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### needed something from the working group on that? 1 

### MR. BARBOUR: It's the same answer I'm 2 

### going to say with every piece of data that's in 3 

### here. We need inputs from the working group. 4 

### And I've heard some statements in some of the 5 

### questions that they're eager to see what's behind 6 

### the numbers. We can share that, but those, I 7 

### hope, are not the final inputs for the EEM that 8 

### end up influencing or informing, not influencing, 9 

### informing the working group's decision. 10 

### The numbers that are in there are 11 

### placeholders to make sure the model works. 12 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: Okay. 13 

### MR. BARBOUR: So I want to emphasize 14 

### that. It's based on data that is publicly 15 

### available that we could have and that we put in, 16 

### so they're hopefully representative and not an 17 

### order of magnitude off. Who knows, maybe they 18 

### are. But they're data that we've collected, put 19 

### in, make sure the model works. Hopefully we're 20 

### in the ballpark so that it gets, you know, the 21 

### model -- because if it's not then the model may 2266

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### not work as well either. 1 

### But we just want to make sure that that's 2 

### what it is. 3 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: Okay. 4 

### MR. BARBOUR: So everything that you see 5 

### in the tool, we're always open and actually we 6 

### would like feedback from the working group in 7 

### terms of how the LCC -- we want to make sure that 8 

### they get the analysis that they need to inform 9 

### their decisions. That's the key point. 10 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: And if I'm not mistaken, 11 

### Lois, that's what you and Emanuel are putting 12 

### together some of those numbers? 13


### MS. STARKEY: For? 14 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: Some of the numbers that 15 

### we need; specific numbers that we need in order 16 

### to plug into the spreadsheet. 17 

### MS. STARKEY: Well, we're going to get 18 

### the breakdown of fuel use, and I mean, we're 19 

### working on all the numbers. I mean, Emanuel -- 20 

### yeah, I know Emanuel is working -- 21 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: Okay. 2267

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### MS. STARKEY: -- and our manufacturers 1 

### are working very hard to get those costs. And I 2 

### also can provide a breakdown that HUD and MHI 3 

### have done over the years of what your breakdown - 4 

### - you can see what the regional shipments are by 5


### state. 6 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: Okay. 7 

### MS. STARKEY: If it would help. Was 8 

### there anything else? 9 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: Well, that's the question 10 

### I was going to ask. I guess it goes to Ed and 11 

### Matthew. Are there other information other than 12 

### what Lois and Emanuel are putting together here 13 

### that you would need from the working group; the 14 

### working group could help to get data to plug in 15 

### here? Other than what they're working on? 16 

### MR. BARBOUR: And this is Ed Barbour, 17 

### Navigant. 18 

### Not really, but we're getting ready to go 19 

### through the difficult details behind some of the 20 

### EEM costs, at least in terms of the insulation 21 

### levels and the fenestration levels and the air 2268

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### tightness that we would want to get feedback 1 

### from. 2 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: Okay. 3 

### MR. BARBOUR: So as we walk through, I 4 

### imagine that we're going to elicit responses from 5 

### a number of manufacturers in saying, oh that's 6 

### way too low or that's way too high. Or maybe 7 

### not. But you know, so we'll see that here. 8 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: So the group just needs to 9 

### look for anomalies. 10 

### MR. BARBOUR: Well just, you know, help 11 

### us correct the data or help us have better data 12 

### in that particular format. 13 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: Okay. I'm sorry. Someone 14 

### on the phone? 15 

### MR. LUBLINER: Yeah, this is Mike 16 

### Lubliner. I just want to clarify that the data 17 

### that's used now, would you characterize this as 18 

### the best data DOE has available to it, and point 19 

### out that DOE has asked for this data since the 20 

### ANOPR and has used the data that it received from 21 

### the ANOPR, as well as other sources. 2269

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### The question for Ed or Joe. 1 

### MR. BARBOUR: Yeah, this is Ed Barbour. 2 

### MR. LUBLINER: Is the data -- 3 

### MR. BARBOUR: I would not characterize 4 

### this as the best available data to DOE. This is 5 

### not a result of a comprehensive cost study that 6 

### DOE funded at Navigant. It is based on publicly 7 

### available data that we could compile in less than 8 

### a month. That's the way I would characterize it. 9 

### MR. LUBLINER: Thank you. 10 

### MR. BARBOUR: From all sources; all 11 

### residential sources. So again, I hope we're in 12 

### the ballpark. I hope we're not off on order of 13 

### magnitude. But it is not based on a funded cost 14 

### study as we might do in other compliance 15 

### standards regulations. It's meant to be a 16 

### starting point for discussions for the working 17


### group. 18 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: Okay. So then when we get 19 

### into those cost items, then we'll see exactly how 20 

### those look then. Okay. 21 

### MR. HAGERMAN: I mean, this is Joe 2270

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### Hagerman with DOE. I think all the working group 1 

### members want to get these costs right. Right? 2 

### Because it drives the output, so. 3 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: Right. 4 

### MR. HAGERMAN: You know, the ask is 5 

### always out there, give us better cost data. You 6 

### know, absent better cost data we're stuck using, 7 

### you know, Navigant's best guesses -- 8 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: Okay. 9 

### MR. HAGERMAN: -- from those publicly 10 

### available data sources. So. 11 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: Okay. So they're clear 12 

### that NCI is a default unless we hear other. 13 

### Okay? 14 

### MS. DICKENS: This is Ishbel. May I ask 15 

### a simple question? 16 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: Yeah. 17 

### MS. DICKENS: So, I was looking at this 18 

### spreadsheet and I appreciate that the numbers 19 

### we're using are just what you have and that's 20 

### great. So, is it true to say that if you're 21 

### buying a home in San Francisco it would take you 2271

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### -- the longest is six years, to make the least 1 

### overall savings, where as if you were in 2 

### Fairbanks it would take you the least number of 3 

### years to make the maximum number of savings? 4 

### MR. WALKER: Ishbel, I'll say part of 5 

### your question got a little bit garbled as it came 6 

### through. But I can just say what a payback 7 

### period is and I think that will help you. 8 

### A simple payback just says how long does 9 

### it take for me to recoup my initial investment 10 

### without any fancy financial discountings or 11 

### anything like that. So it's just, I spent $100 12 

### on a house, I get $50 a year energy savings, so 13 

### that takes two years to pay back. It's that 14 

### simple. I shouldn't say it's that simple, but 15 

### that's the way that particular parameter is 16 

### calculated. 17 

### So when you gave the San Francisco 18 

### example, yes, in 11.4 years the San Francisco 19 

### customer would recoup their initial investment. 20 

### That's the best way to interpret that. Does that 21 

### help you? 2272

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### MS. DICKENS: Yeah, although it seems as 1 

### if living in Fairbanks you're going to recoup 2 

### your initial investment much quicker and make a 3 

### greater overall total savings. Is that right? 4 

### MR. WALKER: Well, I mean, I can just -- 5 

### I can talk through generally how that happens. 6 

### So in Fairbanks your energy cost just naturally 7 

### is enormous because you're very cold and you're 8 

### always running your heater. So if you make any 9 

### small change to the efficiency of that Fairbanks 10 

### person's home, the savings are magnified because 11 

### they're running their systems much more. 12 

### So that's why, if you can see what I'm 13 

### highlighting on the screen, that person is saving 14 

### $16,000 in energy in Fairbanks as opposed to only 15 

### $3,000 in San Francisco, while they have kind of 16 

### similar incremental home costs because the EEMs 17 

### associated with the code in those zones is fairly 18 

### similar. 19 

### Yes, it's a similar property. The person 20 

### who has the most expensive home to operate is 21 

### able to yield or glean the most savings. 2273

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### MS. DICKENS: Right. Okay. Good. Thank 1 

### you. That's helpful. 2 

### MR. WALKER: Okay. 3 

### MS. DICKENS: Thank you, Matthew. 4 

### MR. LEVY: Matthew, it's Emanuel Levy. I 5 

### have two interrelated questions. One is actually 6 

### a point followed up by Ishbel's comment. 7 

### If you kept adding more and more beyond 8 

### 2015, conservation measures to the home in 9 

### Fairbanks, until the LCC savings came down to 10 

### zero, which potentially is what we're looking at 11 

### as the target here, right? That's the bottom of 12 

### the curve. 13 

### MR. WALKER: I mean, I guess that's a 14 

### possibility. 15 

### MR. LEVY: Just theoretically. All the 16 

### simple paybacks, in that case, if all the LCC 17 

### savings got down to zero, all the simple paybacks 18 

### would get to some level, right? Like 13 years or 19 

### 14 years, based upon the numbers you have here. 20 

### MR. WALKER: Uh-huh. 21 

### MR. LEVY: So the simple payback is just 2274

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### kind of an artifact. It just tells you how many 1 

### years your LLC analysis is equivalent to in terms 2 

### of simple payback. 3 

### MR. WALKER: That's right. 4 

### MR. UNGER: Can I interrupt? I think 5 

### what he's saying is not quite correct. The LCC 6 

### savings here is compared to HUD code. It's not - 7 

### - I mean, if you get to zero you will have the 8 

### same overall financial impact as the HUD code. 9 

### You will not have the leased life cycle cost. 10 

### MR. WALKER: That's right. 11 

### MR. UNGER: So I mean, you would have to 12 

### maximize, you would have to adjust the parameters 13 

### until you maximize the LCC savings in order to 14 

### hit the low point on the curve, if that's the 15 

### objective. 16 

### MR. LEVY: Yeah, I mean, actually this 17 

### brings me to the second point. I don’t agree 18 

### with that because it's not really being compared 19 

### with -- 20 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: Emanuel. 21 

### MR. LEVY: Yes, sorry. 2275

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: Before you get too deep 1 

### into that let me ask the nonengineers, are you 2 

### following this? 3 

### MS. STARKEY: (Shakes head no.) 4 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: Okay. All right. Yeah, 5 

### and you can hide behind me on this one, right? 6 

### Yeah, I wasn't quite following that 7 

### either and I want to make sure that -- because it 8 

### seems like that is one of the lynch pins here 9 

### that we're trying to figure out, and I want to 10 

### make sure that everyone understands this. Is 11 

### there a way that that could be explained in 12 

### layman's terms? 13 

### Does anyone want to give that a shot, the 14 

### life cycle cost curve? 15 

### MR. LEVY: Yeah it's (inaudible). 16 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: Okay. So can you pull up 17 

### that slide? 18 

### All right. Now, if we could -- Matthew, 19 

### I'm going to call on you here to use the pointer 20 

### here. Now, as you're discussing this, move the 21 

### pointer along the line as low -- and Emanuel, 2276

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### while we're talking here. 1 

### So Emanuel, you said that if the goal is 2 

### to get zero, where is that at on this curve? 3 

### MR. LEVY: The red dot, right. 4


### MR. WALKER: No. 5 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: Okay. So there's some 6 

### disagreement here. 7 

### MR. UNGER: So first of all, if you're 8 

### trying to compare this curve to the spreadsheet, 9 

### the spreadsheet has LCC savings. This curve is 10 

### in terms of LCC, life cycle cost. So, you would 11 

### have to flip the vertical axis. What is positive 12 

### in the spreadsheet is negative on this chart. 13 

### Now, the other piece is that the 14 

### spreadsheet is comparing the life cycle cost to 15 

### the HUD code. The baseline is the HUD code. So 16 

### zero on the spreadsheet would be at the yellow 17


### square. 18 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: The dotted line. 19 

### MR. UNGER: Where the dotted line is 20 

### would be where zero is on the spreadsheet, as the 21 

### spreadsheet is currently constructed. And as you 2277

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### go down the curve toward the red dot, the life 1 

### cycle cost savings on the spreadsheet will 2 

### increase, and you would get a higher and higher 3 

### number and eventually if you went past the red 4 

### dot, I don't know whether it does in terms of the 5 

### scenarios that are available in the spreadsheet, 6 

### then you would eventually start returning and you 7 

### would start getting lower life cycle cost savings 8 

### compared to the HUD code. So the number on the 9 

### spreadsheet would then start getting lower again. 10 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: And you start moving 11 

### towards the dotted line again. 12 

### MR. UNGER: Right. Right. And 13 

### eventually you would again hit zero, at which 14 

### point the life cycle cost is the same as if you 15 

### had the home at the HUD code. 16 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: Emanuel. 17 

### MR. LEVY: Yeah, all of you agree that 18 

### the red dot is a point at which the savings 19 

### exactly equals the cost. 20 

### MR. UNGER: Not if you're comparing it to 21 

### HUD code. 2278

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### MR. LEVY: Well, okay. This is what -- 1 

### MR. SANTANA: Manny with CAVCO. 2 

### MR. LEVY: Sorry. 3 

### MR. SANTANA: When you say zero, do you 4 

### mean that's a zero incremental cost? Well, it's 5 

### the same cost as the (indiscernible)for the HUD 6 

### code, for the HUD baseline? 7 

### MR. WALKER: Yes, that is correct. 8 

### MR. SANTANA: So zero means zero added 9 

### cost to the consumer, right? 10 

### MR. WALKER: That's right. 11 

### MR. SANTANA: Okay. 12 

### MR. WALKER: And that's zero added cost 13 

### over the whole life of operating the product. So 14 

### on the yellow square, if you make a HUD code home 15 

### and then you make another HUD code home, and you 16 

### compare the total operating costs of the two 17 

### homes, and subtract the two, you get a zero. 18 

### Then if you go way down the curve, surf back up 19 

### to the dotted line, there's another point where 20 

### you've spent a ton of money making a really 21 

### efficient home, and the energy cost savings 2279

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### associated with that more efficient home exactly 1 

### offset the energy cost savings. And so that's 2 

### another equivalent home from a life cycle cost 3 

### basis. Even though that customer with the zero 4 

### on the far right-hand side of the plot has had to 5 

### spend more money up front. 6 

### So they're equivalent on a life cycle 7 

### cost basis, they're not equivalent on a first 8 

### cost basis. 9 

### UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Where would the 10 

### curve intersect on that? 11 

### MR. SANTANA: I think, you know, the way 12 

### that I understood this is that once you get to 13 

### the right of the red dot, you get diminishing 14 

### returns because, you know, so the zero on the 15 

### other side, that isn't a zero. It's a whole lot 16 

### more expensive. You just -- 17 

### MR. LEVY: You actually -- Manny, you're 18 

### getting negative returns. 19 

### MR. SANTANA: Right. That was my 20 

### understanding of the curve. So it isn't a zero 21 

### on the right side of the curve. You know, it's 2280

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### going to be a lot more expensive, but you get 1 

### less energy savings. So you get less bang for 2 

### your buck, essentially, when you get past the red 3 

### dot. 4 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: The negative returns are 5 

### the -- 6 

### MR. LUBLINER: This is Mike Lubliner. 7 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: Go ahead, Mike. 8 

### MR. LUBLINER: Yeah. I'm totally 9 

### confused here. You know, I thought this was 10 

### pretty clear that the optimum point from an 11 

### energy and a life cycle cost is where that dotted 12 

### line meets on the right of the curve. 13 

### Diminishing or not, Manny, it's still to 14 

### the consumer, more cost effective to buy the home 15 

### as it moves to the right. 16 

### And the other point I wanted to make has 17 

### to do with the misrepresentation of payback as a 18 

### useful absolute assessment tool for cost 19 

### effectiveness. Payback is a great tool for 20 

### comparing, as Ishbel pointed out, you know, one 21 

### city to another and relative savings. But 2281

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### payback does not consider the things that are 1 

### shown here in the life cycle cost because if a 2 

### payback is two years and the measure lasts 30 3 

### years, the payback doesn't consider the energy 4 

### savings for the next 28 years. Nor does it 5 

### consider if the person sells the home after two 6 

### years in Fairbanks, the money that they get back 7 

### out of their initial investment. 8 

### So I would caution us not to use or 9 

### discuss payback other than for relative 10 

### comparisons like climate. Climate, for example, 11 

### you know, it cuts both ways. 12 

### The Fairbanks example might show that 13 

### foam sheeting on the walls is cost effective, 14 

### which clearly it wouldn't maybe not be in San 15 

### Francisco. So it's useful for looking at 16 

### relative comparisons. But really we need to 17 

### fundamentally understand this life cycle cost, 18 

### all of us here, and agree that optimum point is 19 

### where that curve reintersects that dotted line. 20 

### MR. WALKER: Yeah. I'd like to try to 21 

### clarify one more time on this plot. I think we 2282

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### have to be careful with optimal because that gets 1 

### into a judgment call as to what is best on the 2 

### plot. But we can at least agree upon the facts 3 

### of what the plot represents. 4 

### So let me just try one more time and I 5 

### feel like there's still differing views. And it 6 

### would be nice like Michael Lubliner was saying, 7 

### it would be nice for us all to come to the same 8 

### consensus here. 9 

### So, if you start at the yellow dot, 10 

### that's a HUD code home. If you buy another HUD 11 

### code home you don't save any money; you're at the 12 

### same place. So that's a zero. It means you've 13 

### saved zero money. 14 

### As you move down the curve to the green 15 

### dot you've spent more to buy a more expensive 16 

### home but there's energy savings and those energy 17 

### savings are large, so they make the overall cost 18 

### of ownership of that home less than the yellow. 19 

### And so because the overall cost of ownership is 20 

### less than the yellow, there are positive savings 21 

### because you might have a $100 HUD code home minus 2283

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### a $90 green home to get $10 of savings. But then 1 

### you can push that even further. You can get to 2 

### the red dot where you might have a $100 HUD code 3 

### home but only an $80 red home. 4 

### And so that's your maximum LCC savings. 5 

### You've saved the most money relative to the 6 

### yellow HUD code home. 7 

### But then as you continue to move to the 8 

### right you can increase your energy savings, 9 

### because that's what's happening as you move to 10 

### the right. So you go to the blue home. You've 11 

### increased your energy savings, but you're not 12 

### saving as much money as the red home. And 13 

### actually the blue home and the green home have 14 

### the same overall cost of ownership except the 15 

### difference is that the blue home cost more up 16 

### front. 17 

### The same thing happens as you look at any 18 

### vertical -- or sorry, horizontal line on the 19 

### plot. So if we take the dotted line, the yellow 20 

### square and my zero over here, which I'm drawing 21 

### again, both have the same overall cost of 2284

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### ownership. So this point here represents the 1 

### most energy savings you can have without making 2 

### the overall cost of ownership of the home greater 3 

### than the HUD code home. So there's no money 4 

### saved there, but there's a lot of energy saved. 5 

### But then you can push it even further and 6 

### buy which is called the space age manufactured 7 

### home. It's so expensive that the energy savings 8 

### never offset the first cost, and that's why it 9 

### falls above the dotted line, and so that's a 10 

### negative savings which means loss of money. 11 

### So I think that's the facts of how to 12 

### interpret this plot. Now there's discussion as 13 

### to where on the curve we want to end up as a 14 

### group, but I think that's the accurate 15 

### description of what this means. 16 

### MR. SANTANA: Well, this is Manny with 17 

### CAVCO, and I think I understand what you're 18 

### saying. So the difference between the dotted 19 

### line where it intersects the curve on the right20 

### hand side and the yellow point, the difference 21 

### between those two is just a matter of time? 2285

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### MR. WEISS: No, that -- 1 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: Time and cost. 2 

### MR. WEISS: Yeah. 3 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: Time and cost of the 4 

### initial energy efficiency measures. 5 

### MR. WEISS: In other words, the space -- 6 

### MR. SANTANA: So those two points are 7 

### back at zero, so it's just over time, you know, 8 

### you spent more money but you save on energy so 9 

### those two -- so you know, another thing that I'd 10 

### like to point out is that this curve is 11 

### idealized. You know, the line from the red dot 12 

### to the point where it intersects the curve, might 13 

### be a very steep line, right? 14 

### MR. WALKER: It's a possibility. This 15 

### curve is just an illustration. It doesn't 16 

### represent -- 17 

### MR. SANTANA: Right. 18 

### MR. WALKER: -- the expectation for 19 

### manufactured housing. It could be very 20 

### different. 21 

### MR. LEVY: This is Emanuel. Could I 2286

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### interject a point here? 1


### MR. WALKER: Sure. 2 

### MR. LEVY: If you were to plot the points 3 

### on your table, the table we were just looking at, 4 

### the green point would have a positive value. 5


### MR. WALKER: Correct. 6 

### MR. LEVY: The red points would be zero. 7 

### MR. WALKER: That's not -- 8 

### MR. LEVY: The blue would have a negative 9 

### point. 10 

### MR. WALKER: That isn't correct, Emanuel. 11 

### I don't mean to be so -- 12 

### MR. LEVY: I mean, so what -- 13 

### MR. WALKER: -- abrupt, but it really 14 

### isn't. 15 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: The zero -- 16 

### MR. LEVY: I mean, if you moved from the 17 

### dot -- if this was really a series of dots, this 18 

### curve, the dot that was right before the -- and 19 

### each one of those dots represented a level of 20 

### efficiency, the dot that was right before the red 21 

### curve, to go from that dot to the red point would 2287

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### be almost zero. 1 

### MR. WALKER: You're talking about where 2 

### my arrow is? 3 

### MR. LEVY: It would still be positive. 4


### Yes. 5 

### MR. WALKER: Okay. 6 

### MR. LEVY: If there was a dot there, and 7 

### we're trying to construct this curve as part of 8 

### this exercise we're going through. If there was 9 

### a dot on the curve right there, the difference 10 

### between that dot and the red dot, and moving to 11 

### the red dot another level of efficiency, would 12 

### generate slightly positive results. 13 

### The next dot after that red dot, the next 14 

### level of efficiency, would be slightly negative. 15 

### Would you agree with that? 16 

### MR. WALKER: I feel like what you're 17 

### describing is the change in LCC savings. You're 18 

### talking about the slope of the curve. And I 19 

### would agree with that. But, if we're talking 20 

### about simply the value of red dot LCC minus -- 21 

### or, sorry. Yellow square LCC minus red dot LCC, 2288

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### that's not a zero. Would you agree with that? 1 

### MR. LEVY: Yeah. No, I’m sorry. I was 2 

### talking about incremental change. 3 

### MR. WALKER: Right. So incremental 4 

### change, we're totally with you, and that's kind 5 

### of a calculus thing that we get all excited about 6 

### where that's the optimal point where the slope 7 

### gets a zero. 8 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: All right. 9 

### MR. LEVY: Right. 10 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: So, to go back to layman, 11 

### though, we're using an anchor. We're using a 12 

### starting point and that starting point is the HUD 13 

### code and we're measuring everything off of that, 14 

### not the incremental moves. Or can we, I guess? 15 

### Can we do that? 16 

### MR. LEVY: Well, I think that's the 17 

### difference between what we should be doing and 18 

### what has been done so far. I think what has been 19 

### done so far is very helpful, but I would like to 20 

### make a pitch for the fact that this really should 21 

### be an incremental analysis. And I'm not sure how 2289

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### to use the tool right now to accomplish that. 1 

### MR. LUBLINER: This is Mike Lubliner. I 2 

### again would respectfully disagree with what Matt 3 

### was proposing. 4 

### I understand that the cost of ownership 5 

### over the life of the home is what we've been 6 

### targeted by Congress to look at, which means it 7 

### isn't the calculus and the increments, it's the 8 

### overall package to the consumer. And I'm a 9 

### little concerned that we're really going sideways 10 

### here with suggesting that we're not going to be 11 

### looking at the full cost of ownership over the 12 

### life of the home. It bothers me that we're 13 

### dealing with the calculus of what the optimum 14 

### point. 15 

### If we were designing a voluntary program 16 

### with incentives we might be looking at maximizing 17 

### that optimum. But we're not here. We're trying 18 

### to get what's cost effective to the consumer over 19 

### the life of the home, and it doesn't matter what 20 

### happens down in the calculus. It matters what 21 

### happens at the horizontal intersection. Thank 2290

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### you. 1 

### MS. STARKEY: This is Louis from MHI. I 2 

### would like to hear what Emanuel's rationale is 3 

### for taking the optimal incremental approach. 4 

### MR. LEVY: Yeah, I'm glad to say that. 5 

### And Mike, just to clarify, I'm not disagreeing 6 

### that we're doing a life cycle cost analysis and 7 

### that's what we want to be doing. I am agreeing 8 

### with that. I'm just saying that the way you go 9 

### about doing that to make sure you make the best 10 

### investment for the homeowner is to determine all 11 

### those features that from a life cycle cost 12 

### standpoint are cost effective. 13 

### And the way you do that is you would 14 

### create a curve like what we're looking at on the 15 

### screen, which consists of a series of dots. And 16 

### each dot consists of an incremental improvement 17 

### in efficiency. And instead of looking at jumps 18 

### from HUD code to IECC 2015, it's much better from 19 

### the life cycle cost perspective for the consumer 20 

### to look at incremental level jumps in efficiency 21 

### until they reach a point where the next jump, 2291

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### going from R13 to R19, for example, yields a 1 

### negative result for the consumer, whatever that 2 

### number is. 3 

### And if you just simply look at big jumps 4 

### like going from HUD to IECC 2015, you are 5 

### assuming that you're adding a whole bunch of 6 

### features into the home, some of which will be 7 

### cost effective, and some of which are not cost 8 

### effective, but you don't really get to see that 9 

### until you look at the measures individually. 10 

### MS. HOFFMAN: Lois -- 11 

### MR. LUBLINER: Mike Lubliner. Yeah. 12 

### MS. HOFFMAN: Hold on. Did that answer 13 

### your question? 14


### MS. STARKEY: Yes. 15 

### MR. LUBLINER: I agree that it may be 16 

### interesting to look at the increment of each 17 

### measure, but that's not what we're concerned 18 

### about. We're concerned about a package of 19 

### measures that overall are the lowest life cycle 20 

### cost package to the consumer when compared to the 21 

### status quo which is the HUD 1994 energy code. 2292

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### MR. LEVY: And, Michael, I'm suggesting 1 

### to you that what I just laid out is the way to 2 

### get there. 3 

### MR. LUBLINER: I guess we disagree. I'm 4


### sorry. 5 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: And maybe I'm over 6 

### simplifying this, but I think that the scope of 7 

### this committee was to look at the 2015 IECC as a 8 

### starting point. And John, maybe you could chime 9 

### in here as far as if we don't reach agreement, 10 

### what happens? And I don't mean to -- 11 

### MR. CASKEY: You have to remember -- 12 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: I'm like a bullet. 13 

### MR. CASKEY: -- I work for NEMA. I don't 14 

### work for, you know, DOE. DOE is obligated to do 15 

### the best job that they can on energy efficiency 16 

### improvements in this sector. And, you know, it's 17 

### up to them to decide what they're going to do if 18 

### this group doesn't reach consensus. 19 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: Yeah, and I was thinking 20 

### more of like the -- as the ASRAC member, that 21 

### this thing being assigned to a working group, if 2293

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### the working group cannot come up with a 1



### consensus -- 2 

### MR. CASKEY: Then it basically is passed 3 

### back to DOE for them to do it on their own. 4 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: And we're using 2015 IECC 5 

### as that starting point. This is what we're 6 

### looking at. And what doesn't work in the 2015 7 

### IECC, what can, and whatever doesn't work, what 8 

### recommendations or modifications can this 9 

### committee agree on by consensus? Is that an 10 

### accurate summary of what we're doing? 11 

### MR. ROY: This is Robin. Can I throw in 12 

### -- we're bogged down uselessly here. If we had 13 

### some numbers that we were talking about I think 14 

### it would clarify it for so many. Talking in the 15 

### abstract with curves is really cool for folks 16 

### that get the curves. I get the curves, and I 17 

### understand why it's difficult for folks to get 18 

### curves. I don't get a lot of things in English, 19 

### but I do get numbers and that's fine. 20 

### We should move on, have some real 21 

### numbers, and I will say something else. I mean, 2294

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### with respect to what our objective is, typically 1 

### NRDC would be working towards the maximum amount 2 

### of energy savings that is achievable without 3 

### leaving consumes worse off. So no savings in 4 

### dollars for consumers, but not worse off. That's 5 

### what we normally work towards. 6 

### You know, that's a good place for the 7 

### environment. It's not a bad place for consumers. 8 

### This is different from appliance standards. This 9 

### is housing, and this is even more important, this 10 

### is affordable housing that is targeted to the 11 

### less advantaged members of our society. So in 12 

### this case we actually can see some really 13 

### fantastic opportunity to achieve a bunch of 14 

### energy savings and also increase affordability 15 

### for this group. 16 

### So we wouldn't be driving for squeezing 17 

### every ounce of cost effective energy savings out. 18 

### We're looking for an interesting balance. But 19 

### that's a bit of an aside. We're really bogged 20 

### down because we're not talking about numbers. 21 

### We're talking abstract. I think Emanuel and Lubi 2295

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### are talking past each other. I'm sure they are. 1 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: Yeah, that's kind of how I 2 

### was looking at it as well, that it just looks 3 

### like we're going to have the figures in there and 4 

### how you interpret those, whether it be 5 

### incremental or based off of the HUD, the numbers 6 

### are still going to be what the numbers are. 7 

### You're going to be looking at them from your own 8 

### perspective though. 9 

### MS. HOFFMAN: It might be good to take a 10 

### kind of a process check of where we are. And I 11 

### want to ask, actually, Matthew, are you almost 12 

### finished with your presentation, or is there 13


### more? 14 

### MR. HAGERMAN: Well, I think -- this is 15 

### Joe Hagerman, DOE. I think it would be good for 16 

### us to take a break. 17 

### MS. HOFFMAN: Take a break, yeah. 18 

### MR. HAGERMAN: And then when we come back 19 

### Matthew can go through the cost. 20 

### MS. HOFFMAN: Right. 21 

### MR. HAGERMAN: So we can get off of this 2296

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### abstract chart, as Robin says, and into the real 1 

### meat of the numbers. 2 

### MS. HOFFMAN: Uh-huh. Right. So why 3 

### don't we take a 10 minute break? Thank you. You 4 

### on the line also. 5 

### MR. LEVY: Eileen. Eileen. 6 

### MS. HOFFMAN: Yes. Yes? Someone asked 7



### me -- 8 

### MR. LEVY: Can I just make one comment -- 9 

### MS. HOFFMAN: Who is it? 10 

### MR. LEVY: -- before we break? 11 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: Go ahead, Emanuel. 12 

### MS. HOFFMAN: Emanuel. Yes. 13 

### MR. LEVY: Yeah. I also believe what 14 

### Robin said is correct that Mike and I are talking 15 

### past each other and we could probably get this 16 

### sorted out easily. 17 

### But I just want to make one maybe more 18 

### visible analogy here that may help to suggest 19 

### what the difference is and why it may impact what 20 

### Matthew does with the spreadsheet. 21 

### If you only look at going from HUD code 2297

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### up to some very high level like IECC 2015, you 1 

### have a whole package of measures that are 2 

### included in that change. And let's just say for 3 

### argument's sake that one of the changes is a 4 

### change of insulation level from the walls of 5 

### going from R11 to R19. In that change alone, if 6 

### you only looked at that change alone, it would be 7 

### very positive. It would have real positive 8 

### benefits, inexpensive to do, it saves a lot of 9 

### energy, so that the number you saw on Matthew's 10 

### table would be very positive. 11 

### But also in that package of measures is 12 

### going from let's say bubble glass up to low-e 13 

### argon very high performance window, which if you 14 

### looked at that measure individually would have 15 

### negative value. I'm just saying this 16 

### hypothetically. 17 

### So you have two measures. And let's just 18 

### say your change is only those two measures. The 19 

### change of going from the insulation levels, from 20 

### 11 to 19, is so positive that when combined with 21 

### the window change the package of the two things 2298

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### together look like their positive. But what it's 1 

### hiding is the fact that that window change is not 2 

### cost effective. And my only point is, we want to 3 

### make sure that we don't have hidden in the 4 

### packages, measures that are not cost effective. 5 

### And they're just being carried along by virtue of 6 

### the fact that there are other things in the 7 

### package measures that are very beneficial. 8 

### And the incremental approach that we're 9 

### talking about would help you distinguish those 10 

### measures that are good value, and those that have 11 

### negative value. And my main point is that in 12 

### going back to Matthew's analysis, he's only 13 

### looking at packages, where I think what you need 14 

### to do is you have to look increments. 15 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: Okay. 16 

### MS. HOFFMAN: Thank you. Well put. Do 17 

### you have one more comment or should we take a -- 18 

### let's take a break, actually. We'll get your 19 

### comment afterwards. Ten minutes, okay? 20 

### MR. HAGERMAN: Okay. So we'll be back at 21 

### 11:05 Eastern? 2299

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### MS. HOFFMAN: Yeah. 11:05. 1 

### (Recess from 10:54 a.m. until 11:05 a.m.) 2 

### MS. HOFFMAN: We're back to Matthew. And 3 

### I think you had a question also, from -- would 4


### you -- 5 

### MR. WALKER: That's right. We have two 6 

### technical questions about the spreadsheet that 7 

### I'll -- this is Matthew Walker -- that I'll 8 

### answer, or at least acknowledge, and then we'll 9 

### move on to the PowerPoint. 10 

### So we have one from David Tompos. He 11 

### asks, "If you press the populate summary tables 12 

### button on the results tab why does it change the 13 

### tables even if no inputs are changed?" 14 

### And, David, the table shouldn't change so 15 

### you may have to -- I don't know. I may have to 16 

### link up with you separately to see what's going 17 

### on, but when you press this button, populate 18 

### summary tables it appears as though a bunch of 19 

### stuff is happening but if you haven't changed any 20 

### inputs the numbers stay the same. If that 21 

### doesn't help just ping me later and I can 22100

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### probably help. 1 

### And we also have one from Michael Wade. 2 

### I think I may have to get back to him on -- get 3 

### back on this one. But it says, "When you change 4 

### the duration of the loan on the spreadsheet the 5 

### simple payback in years does not change. How can 6 

### this be accurate?" 7 

### I think I just need to investigate this 8 

### question and we'll respond later. But thanks for 9 

### the question. 10 

### UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: (Inaudible) the 11 

### formula thing. 12 

### MR. EZZO: Hey, Matthew, it's Mark Ezzo 13 

### at Clayton Homes. Can I ask a question about the 14 

### spreadsheet? 15 

### MR. UNGER: Actually, can I just check on 16 

### the last question? This is Lowell Unger. 17


### MR. EZZO: Sure. 18 

### MR. UNGER: You said when you change the 19 

### loan -- 20 

### MR. WALKER: It says, when you change the 21 

### duration of the loan the simple -- 22101

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### MR. UNGER: The loan doesn't factor into 1 

### a simple payback. Simple payback is no 2 

### financing, if I understand. 3 

### MR. WALKER: That may be the answer. 4 

### MR. UNGER: Okay. 5 

### MR. WALKER: I just wanted to double6 

### check in case there is something amiss. But what 7 

### you're saying sounds probable. 8 

### MR. UNGER: Thank you. 9 

### MR. WALKER: Okay. Mark? 10 

### MR. EZZO: Yeah. I was playing with the 11 

### spreadsheet on the finance rate to the consumer 12 

### and the part I don't understand is when I'm 13 

### increasing the loan rate to the consumer my 14 

### incremental home cost is going down. It's going 15 

### the opposite direction of what I think it would 16 

### go. So under your financial inputs there, when 17 

### you increase those rates the cost of the home is 18 

### going down. 19 

### MR. WALKER: I'm seeing the opposite when 20 

### I tested it here, so let me just put it back to 21 

### where it was. It was at .09. So, let's just 22102

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### take Memphis at 973 for its incremental home 1 

### cost, Memphis 937. I change the chattel loan 2 

### interest rate from .09 to let's give them 25 3 

### percent. And then Memphis -- we're showing here, 4 

### 1497 for the incremental cost, which is a -- 5 

### MR. EZZO: Yeah. What I was doing is go 6 

### up there above where it says discount rate 7 

### nominal, chattel and real estate. 8 

### MR. WALKER: Okay. 9 

### MR. EZZO: Those are the ones I was 10 

### changing. So when I was increasing the chattel 11 

### or real estate -- 12 

### MR. WALKER: Okay. 13 

### MR. EZZO: -- numbers there the 14 

### incremental home cost was going down. 15 

### MR. WALKER: Right. So, Mark, those are 16 

### separate and that's why there are two spots for 17 

### input here on the sheet. So the loan parameter 18 

### is what the consumer will pay to the bank. So 19 

### I've put down here 25 percent. 20


### MR. EZZO: I see. 21 

### MR. WALKER: The discount rate is, for a 22103

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### lack of a better word, it's how we bring -- well, 1 

### it's just how we bring those future payments back 2 

### to the present year. And that may not be the 3 

### same as the interest rate. The discount rate is 4 

### based on that particular customer's opportunity 5 

### costs and the default setting I had here was that 6 

### I made them the same, but they don't have to be 7 

### the same. 8 

### MR. EZZO: Okay. 9 

### MR. WALKER: Yep. So it does make sense 10 

### that with a larger discount rate those fees or 11 

### costs that are happening, become diminished, or 12 

### decrease. So that is going in the correct 13 

### direction. 14 

### Thanks for the question, though. I'll 15 

### move on to the PowerPoint now. I might need a 16 

### little help removing the pencil tool. Oh, I 17 

### think it happened, actually. 18 

### Okay. So we're resuming the slides and 19 

### the second half reviews the straw man EEM costs. 20 

### I'll say some of these caveats again, the straw 21 

### man EEM costs are generally based on publicly 22104

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### available data. Ed talked a little bit earlier 1 

### about some of those specific sources that we 2 

### used. They're rough estimates, and again, 3 

### they're not based on a full cost analysis. So 4 

### it's not the best that can be done without 5 

### additional data. It's what could be done with a 6 

### short timeframe using public data. 7 

### And so the following slides, we would 8 

### just summarize those EEM costs by each component. 9 

### And I think Joe has a note to make. 10 

### MR. HAGERMAN: I have a note to make that 11 

### these slides are not part of the printouts. We 12 

### made these last night to explain the costs. So 13 

### we'll circulate this. Maybe even right now if we 14



### can. 15 

### MR. WALKER: Okay. Did someone have a 16 

### question? 17 

### MR. LUBLINER: Yeah. This is Mike 18 

### Lubliner. I wanted to ask a general question 19 

### about cost in terms of what the group is feeling. 20 

### My feeling is, is that the industry has buying 21 

### potential that many in the site build industry 22105

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### don't have. So, isn't it reasonable to assume 1 

### that the energy efficiency measure cost for this 2 

### industry will be no less than what a site builder 3 

### could build for a consumer? And I don't 4 

### necessarily want to suggest that we jump into 5 

### that discussion now, but I think we need to be 6 

### thinking about that discussion in the context of 7 

### what the cost of (indiscernible)is when it's 8 

### codified, and when the buying power available to 9 

### the industry is utilized (indiscernible). Thank 10


### you. 11 

### MR. WALKER: Okay. So I'll move on to 12 

### the first of the specific slide. So each slide 13 

### is going to look like this. It has a table of 14 

### incremental costs. The component under 15 

### discussion right here is wall insulation. You 16 

### can see the different levels of insulation down 17 

### the left hand side of the table, and then the 18 

### double wide and single wide cost. 19 

### So those numbers, such as $700 for R21 in 20 

### a singlewide home is the rough straw man estimate 21 

### of the incremental retail cost to go from an R11 22106

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### wall to a R21 wall. So that already accounts for 1 

### the size of the home. It's that final number. 2 

### And what we wanted to do here with these 3 

### tables is, again, recognize that this is a straw 4 

### man starting point, and here's some feedback as 5 

### to specific numbers, way too high, way too low, 6 

### all sorts of things. This is feedback time. 7 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: I'm sorry, Rick. As a 8 

### public viewer I would just ask that -- if someone 9 

### was to call on you to give some input, I would 10 

### ask for that. Okay? Thanks. 11 

### Okay. All right. Thank you. 12 

### MR. CASKEY: This is John Caskey with 13 

### NEMA. Maybe I'll sort of relay what he's sort of 14 

### thinking. You know, in general I would have 15 

### thought from my naïve perspective that, okay, 16 

### you've got the basic cost for building the home, 17 

### and then these are just the incremental costs of 18 

### adding the additional insulation. So to me it 19 

### seems like if I had to throw out a number I would 20 

### have guessed, if a single wide is 50, that a 21 

### doublewide -- and I thought we were using some 22107

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### other term instead of singlewide and doublewide, 1 

### but -- 2 

### MR. WALKER: You're right. Single 3 

### section, double section. 4 

### MR. CASKEY: A single section and a 5 

### double section. So apologize for that. 6 

### MR. WALKER: Yeah. 7 

### MR. CASKEY: But I thought if a single 8 

### section was 50 that maybe a double section 9 

### because it has to be more quantity of insulation 10 

### that it might have been $75 or something like 11 

### that, would have been my wild guess. Or the same 12 

### is true if it was $500 for a single section for 13 

### the R19 that maybe doing it in a doublewide would 14 

### be another 30, 40, 50 percent more than that. So 15 

### why are we not seeing that, or am I out of touch 16 

### with the manufacturing part of this industry? 17 

### MR. WALKER: Well, let's see. I don't 18 

### know if I can give you a specific answer. But 19 

### these estimates are based on the estimated square 20 

### footage of the two. Ed? 21 

### MR. BARBOUR: Yeah. So this is Ed 22108

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### Barbour at Navigant. 1 

### So, when we calculated it based on the 2 

### models that PNNL used, the wall area is actually 3 

### very very similar from a double and a single in 4 

### terms of exterior wall areas. Twelve hundred and 5 

### sixty square feet for a double section and 1,200 6 

### square feet for a single section. So when you -- 7 

### and we assumed, at least in this when we were 8 

### doing this for the first step to R13 that the 9 

### studs stayed the same. It's just a different 10 

### level of insulation, therefore the price is just 11 

### associated with the going from R11 to R13 from an 12 

### insulation standpoint. 13 

### We looked up some insulation costs from 14 

### different home improvement providers like Home 15 

### Depot and other places, but that's how we did it. 16 

### MR. WEISS: Mark Weiss, MAHRR. I guess I 17 

### hear you with respect to walls, but that says 18 

### floors. So -- 19 

### MR. WALKER: That should be wall. 20 

### MR. WEISS: Okay. So you're doubling it 21 

### with a -- per se. I'm not an engineer, but I can 22109

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### figure that out. 1 

### MR. TOMPOS: This is Dave Tompos. I had 2 

### the same point that Mark did, but I'm also 3 

### curious. You know, I've already brought up the 4 

### point that R19 is just about the maximum that we 5 

### can put into a floor cavity outside of the 6 

### outriggers. Is this taking into account that 7 

### we're going from a two by six to a two by eight, 8 

### which is about twice the cost? 9 

### MR. WALKER: Dave, I just wanted to 10 

### clarify, we had a little bit of a discrepancy 11 

### here with the labeling. This slide is the wall 12 

### insulation and not the floor, but we will get to 13 

### floor either next or on the third slide. 14 

### MR. TOMPOS: Okay. Well, I'll ask the 15 

### same question. 16 

### MR. WALKER: Yeah. 17 

### MR. TOMPOS: Well, I guess because we 18 

### have the same situation from going from a two by 19 

### four to a two by six. 20 

### MR. WALKER: That's right. 21 

### MR. TOMPOS: Now, we don't have as big a 22110

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### jump in price, but it's probably, if I had to 1 

### guess based on prices online you're talking about 2 

### a dollar extra per framing member. 3 

### MR. WALKER: So do you find that overall, 4 

### going from a two by four to two by six becomes 5 

### more expensive, taking into account the 16 on 6 

### center to 24 on center change based on the higher 7 

### structural integrity of the thicker beams? 8 

### MR. TOMPOS: Well, I don't think 9 

### everybody is doing a two by -- or 24 on center. 10 

### MR. WALKER: Okay. 11 

### MR. HAGERMAN: So this is Joe Hagerman, 12 

### DOE. I think, you know, this illustrates why we 13 

### need some feedback on these costs and these moves 14 

### between the different energy efficiency measures, 15 

### right? So I mean, so for you know, to David, we 16 

### understand the concern. So what should this 17 

### number be then, right? Ultimately we've got to 18 

### have a number here. 19 

### MR. LUBLINER: This is Mike Lubliner. I 20 

### want to clarify that too. So the cost we're 21 

### seeing here for wall insulation, going from R11 22111

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### to R21, don't reflect an assumption of any 1 

### additional cost of the framing of two by four to 2 

### two by six, given the existing framing approach 3 

### the industry uses. 4 

### MR. BARBOUR: This is Ed Barbour with 5 

### Navigant. No, it does assume. So when we go 6 

### from R13 to R19 we assumed, or at least the 7 

### report that we used as a basis for this, the PNNL 8 

### IECC TSD, you're going from a two by four to a 9 

### two by six. 10 

### The difference between -- the different 11 

### assumption that we made in our straw man is that 12 

### we did not move it out to the 24 inches on 13 

### center. We did actually add some framing costs, 14 

### and honestly it was just a ballpark number that 15 

### we could put in there. The cost difference 16 

### between -- 17 

### MR. LUBLINER: Thank you, sir. 18 

### MR. BARBOUR: -- R19 and R21 is reflected 19 

### in terms of the insulation and that's based on 20 

### information that Tom Eckman provided as a 21 

### response to comments or earlier in the 22112

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### rulemaking. 1 

### The other comment I'll make is that for 2 

### the R20 levels, which we've seen in a number of 3 

### the runs, for the costing we assumed that most 4 

### manufacturers would just go to an R21 insulation 5 

### and not necessarily change the framing and 6 

### wouldn't necessarily go to some complex 7 

### configuration with foam and insulation. That's 8 

### our assumption. 9 

### But yeah, we're looking for feedback on 10 

### these numbers and to see how accurate they are. 11 

### MR. EZZO: It's Mark Ezzo at Clayton 12 

### Homes. I'll give you my feedback from our 13 

### standpoint. Obviously we do two by four and two 14 

### by six walls. Like you said we go from four inch 15 

### wall to the six inch wall once you get beyond our 16 

### 13 insulation. 17 

### We don't space two by six wall studs at 18 

### 24 on center when we go to two by six. We keep 19 

### them at 16 on center, and we don't use any R20 R 20 

### value in any wall assembly. We go 11, 13, 19, 21 

### then 21. Thank you. 22113

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### MR. TOMPOS: This is Dave Tompos. I'm 1 

### going to ask Mark Ezzo, or any manufacturer, do 2 

### those numbers look like they represent the cost 3 

### to the consumer or the manufacturer's cost? 4 

### MR. EZZO: The jump from 11 to 13 looks 5 

### low to me. The jump to 19 and 21 looks a little 6 

### more accurate to me if we're considering cost to 7 

### consumer. But I think 11 to 13 might be a little 8 

### light. 9 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: What would you put there? 10 

### MR. EZZO: I mean, to me I think the 11 

### material cost to the home builder going from 11 12 

### to 13 is about 50. So whatever factor you're 13 

### using to get to the end consumer, I think that 14 

### may have been missed on the 11 to 13 bump. 15 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: Okay. Thanks. 16 

### MR. EZZO: Uh-huh. 17 

### MR. LEVY: This is Emanuel. Just to 18 

### clarify. Everybody is expecting the cost data 19 

### from us, and we do plan to provide that certainly 20 

### by the end of this week, numbers that we've 21 

### collected from about 10 different manufacturers. 22114

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### So hopefully we will have some better data for 1 

### you by the end of the week. 2 

### MS. HOFFMAN: Thank you. Mark, you 3 

### had -- 4 

### MR. WEISS: Yes, since the question was 5 

### raised, what is the factor you're using for going 6 

### from wholesale to retail? 7 

### MR. BARBOUR: This is Ed Barbour at 8 

### Navigant. So the costs that we collected, or the 9 

### reports that we reviewed, honestly because we 10 

### didn't collect costs, already had made that 11 

### assumption in terms of the retail pricing. So, 12 

### for this one, since we were collecting insulation 13 

### costs from Menards, Lowes, Home Depots, those 14 

### types of outlets, you know, that's a retail price 15 

### already. We assume that the manufacturer was 16 

### getting something better. Again, it's a rough 17 

### straw man but it was about the best we could do 18 

### for this level. 19 

### MR. WEISS: Okay. So the answer is, we 20 

### don't know the markups included, basically? 21 

### MR. BARBOUR: Right. Ed again. Yeah, we 22115

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### did not apply a markup to any of the -- we didn't 1 

### create a cost to the consumer markup. 2 

### MR. WEISS: You gathered retail costs. 3 

### MR. BARBOUR: We just got the costs that 4 

### we could, you know, that were retail costs. 5 

### MR. LUBLINER: This is Mike Lubliner. On 6 

### the last meeting I had made a suggestion that 7 

### perhaps DOE or its contractor engage NIMA on 8 

### insulation wholesale costs to get a sense of what 9 

### the costs of some of the materials are that the 10 

### manufacturer isn't typically purchasing in large 11 

### quantities now. Things like possibly R13, R15, 12 

### R21 or special orders. And I want to make sure 13 

### that the costs that we're using are indicative of 14 

### what we believe the cost of these materials to be 15 

### if they were getting the kind of buying power 16 

### associated with a code change. 17 

### So I guess the question is, other than 18 

### the work that Emanuel is providing on cost from 19 

### the industry, is DOE's contractor able to also 20 

### work backwards from wholesale costs? And that 21 

### will hopefully get at what Mark's question was, 22116

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### which is, what are the overall markups from crude 1 

### materials to consumer costs. So just your 2 

### thoughts on that, Joe, or if you see that's a 3 

### direction we're going to be going or not? 4 

### MR. HAGERMAN: Yes, this is Joe Hagerman 5 

### at DOE. I think that, you know, we'll take -- 6 

### we'll explore all, you know, directions that we 7 

### think are possible to get us the most accurate 8 

### retail costs here. But we'd really, you know, 9 

### prefer if the manufactures could supply the cost 10 

### information, so then we don't get into arguments 11 

### of what those factors are to go from wholesale to 12 

### retail. That's the honest answer. 13 

### MR. LUBLINER: Then I would encourage, 14 

### Joe, I would encourage Emanuel to engage NIMA to 15 

### try to -- or the manufacturers to engage their 16 

### suppliers to try to get a better sense of, 17 

### particularly the high density products in the 18 

### walls, what they're going to cost in a more of a 19 

### steady state market realm. I know that's a 20 

### difficult what-if, but I think it's important to 21 

### consider in the analysis so that we don't miss 22117

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### that buying opportunity to use a higher density 1 

### wall insulation. Thank you. 2 

### MR. WALKER: Okay, great. I've moved on 3 

### to the next slide which covers the ceiling straw 4 

### man costs. There's only one level here to look 5 

### at. Does anyone have any feedback? 6 

### (No audible response.) 7 

### MR. WALKER: I guess here you do see a 8 

### different ratio between the single and double 9 

### section, since it's the area rather than the 10 

### perimeter. 11 

### MR. HAGERMAN: This is Joe Hagerman, DOE. 12 

### Mark, as you gave us kind of a thoughtful, you 13 

### know, kind of gut check here on the last numbers, 14 

### you know, could we ask you to give us a gut check 15 

### on these numbers as well? 16 

### MR. EZZO: Yeah, Joe, those don't look 17 

### too awkward to me. I mean, I can't tell you, you 18 

### know, anything precise, but it doesn't look like 19 

### it's off too far. 20 

### MR. HAGERMAN: And then this is Joe 21 

### Hagerman again, DOE. David Tompos, you had a 22118

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### shipping issue that you brought up multiple 1 

### times. Does that factor in here again? You can 2 

### say it's comparable but -- 3 

### MR. TOMPOS: I don't think we're going to 4 

### have a problem with R38. I haven't had a chance 5 

### yet to check that on any type of cathedral 6 

### configuration. 7 

### MR. KESSLER: This is Bert, Palm Harbor. 8 

### Question about the R value 30 that's listed. Was 9 

### that used on the HUD base unit? 10 

### MR. WALKER: Yeah, I believe so. 11 

### MR. KESSLER: Well, I think the actual 12 

### would be more like R21. 13 

### MR. WALKER: Can you clarify what you 14 

### mean by actual, or are you saying the code says 15 

### 21 rather than 30, or is this some sort of 16 

### standard practice? 17 

### MR. KESSLER: What I'm saying is that for 18 

### current HUD Thermal Zone 1, if you take it down 19 

### close to the UL max you can probably get away 20 

### with an R21. 21 

### MR. WALKER: Okay. Does anyone else have 22119

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### similar experience; any of the other 1 

### manufacturers? 2 

### MR. EZZO: Yeah, it's Mark Ezzo. I would 3 

### agree with that. But here we're comparing -- 4 

### we're not comparing HUD base to IECC, we're 5 

### comparing two R values, right? 6 

### MR. WALKER: That's right. 7 

### MR. EZZO: And you're not showing all the 8 

### variables that are being compared, you're just 9 

### showing one. You're showing 30 to 38. 10 

### MR. WALKER: That's right because the 11 

### codes and efficiency levels that have been 12 

### analyzed thus far utilized 30 and 38. 13 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: Do we need to add a third? 14 

### MR. HAGERMAN: So this is Joe Hagerman 15 

### with -- 16 

### MR. KESSLER: I'm going to repeat my 17 

### question. 18 

### MR. HAGERMAN: Right. Go ahead, Bert. 19 

### MR. KESSLER: I'm going to repeat my 20 

### question. This was Bert. For the base HUD unit 21 

### that's being compared, if we use an R30 in the 22120

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### ceiling? 1 

### MR. WALKER: Yes, that is currently 2 

### what's being done. 3 

### MR. KESSLER: Okay. And then like for 4 

### the walls you used R11 as the base and then 5 

### analyzed the 13, 19, 20, and 21 upgrades? 6 

### MR. WALKER: Yeah, that's usually a 7 

### pretty safe way to interpret the table. We just 8 

### have to keep in mind that the different HUD zones 9 

### may have had a different starting point, so, 10 

### every zone may not have used the R11 as the base, 11 

### but I think generally you're correct. 12 

### MR. TOMPOS: Dave Tompos. And I'll ask 13 

### manufacturers again because I was -- I'm pretty 14 

### sure, without verifying this, that some 15 

### manufactures are using an R19 in the ceiling. So 16 

### I don't think -- I don't know where R30 came in 17 

### as the base. 18 

### MR. HAGERMAN: So this is Joe Hagerman, 19 

### DOE. In our previous analysis with the Energy 20 

### Plus runs, where we went from the component U 21 

### values to the UO values, that's where we used R30 22121

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### as the HUD base ceiling insulation. That's where 1 

### that came from with given the framing factors and 2 

### everything, that the PNNL assumptions and that 3 

### modeling document that I sent out, all those 4 

### inputs were in there. So that's, you know, what 5 

### Matthew is showing here is the R30 as a carryover 6 

### of those assumptions. 7 

### Now if we want to go back and change it 8 

### we can. We have no problem with that, but you 9 

### might want to look at the framing factors and 10 

### everything. 11 

### MR. TOMPOS: Well, I need to get some 12 

### feedback from the manufacturer. Help me out 13 

### here. Don't we have Zone 1 houses with R1911 and 14 

### 11? 15 

### MR. EZZO: This is Mark Ezzo. Yeah, we 16 

### do, but I think to Joe's point, if you look back 17 

### on those tables where they ran the HUD code 18 

### analysis for Zone 1, they used wall, roof, and 19 

### floor insulation and a window to come up with a 20 

### total of UO that meets current HUD code, right. 21 

### So they ran their calc with an R13 wall, an R30 22122

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### roof, and an R13 floor, and a window of 1.07, 1 

### which I think is just like a single glaze 2 

### aluminum window. 3 

### So that was the tradeoff. I mean, if you 4 

### go to a better R value in the ceiling -- or 5 

### excuse me, worse R value in the ceiling, like an 6 

### R19, like you're suggesting, Dave, to get that 7 

### same, you know compliance check for Thermal Zone 8 

### 1 current HUD code, that window is going to have 9 

### to get a lot better. 10 

### MR. WALKER: That's a really good point, 11 

### Mark because -- 12 

### MR. EZZO: If you understand. 13 

### MR. WALKER: -- if we change one 14 

### component we have to consider the overall system 15 

### impact on that UO compliance. 16 

### MR. EZZO: So I think what you're going 17 

### to see is the delta between the 30 and the 38 is 18 

### some number, like we're looking at. But then the 19 

### delta from the window of 1.07 to whatever it 20 

### needs to be, that's going to be a big number. 21 

### MR. HAGERMAN: Joe Hagerman from DOE. 22123

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### That's absolutely correct. So I mean, the one 1 

### way to think about this is we can go component by 2 

### component like Matthew is doing, but you have to 3 

### kind of weigh the total package cost at the very 4 

### end to see if you feel like that's kind of 5 

### representative of taking your kind of existing 6 

### HUD code based to whatever level it is we've 7 

### selected here. 8 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: So, do we keep this at 30 9 

### and 38? Yeah? 10 

### (General nodding of heads in 11 

### affirmative.) 12 

### MR. LUBLINER: This is Mike Lubliner. 13 

### What I was hearing from Mark is that the 14 

### manufacturers at least in Zone 1 have two 15 

### different approaches. One uses a better window. 16 

### If they use a better window they're down to R19 17 

### in the ceiling, better than a single pane 18 

### aluminum. And if they use a better window like - 19 

### - I don't know what is it, a double pane aluminum 20 

### or double pane vinyl, that they can get back down 21 

### to the R19. Excuse me, I misspoke. 22124

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### But that's the tradeoff. Is that 1 

### correct, Mark? And should we be looking at 2 

### both -- 3 

### MR. EZZO: Yeah, that's the -- 4 

### MR. LUBLINER: -- those cases? 5 

### MR. EZZO: That's exactly right, Mike. 6 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: Okay. 7 

### MR. EZZO: And the reality is, there's a 8 

### whole lot of ways to skin that cat for, you know, 9 

### for any thermal zone. There's a lot of different 10 

### tradeoffs you can use. I mean, most people 11 

### aren't starting off with R13 in a wall, for 12 

### instance. So, there's just a lot of different -- 13 

### I mean, look at all the different components 14 

### you've got. You've got wall R value, ceiling R 15 

### value, floor R value, and the type of window 16 

### you're using. Of course how much glass in the 17 

### home. There's a ton of variables involved, and a 18 

### whole lot of different ways to arrive at that, 19 

### you know, compliant overall U number. 20 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: Okay. All right. Thank 21


### you. 22125

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### MR. WEISS: Mark, just this -- this is 1 

### Mark Weiss, just to clarify. That's because of 2 

### the performance nature of the HUD code, correct? 3 

### MR. EZZO: Yeah, that's right. 4 

### MR. WEISS: Okay. Which allows you to 5 

### provide the maximum affordability for the 6 

### consumer, correct? 7 

### MR. EZZO: That's right, yeah. It's not 8 

### prescriptive. It's not telling us, you know, you 9 

### have to have certain R values in cavities. You 10 

### can be flexible with the way you run it as long 11 

### as your overall U value comes out. 12 

### MR. WEISS: Right. And that applies to 13 

### all the various energy zones, correct? 14 

### MR. EZZO: Right. I think there is 15 

### something in there about Thermal Zones 2 and 3 16 

### have to use insulating glass. But other than 17 

### that there's a lot of flexibility. 18 

### MR. WEISS: Great. Thank you. 19 

### MR. WALKER: Well, great. I'll move on 20 

### to the next component. This is the floor 21 

### insulation. Few different levels here. We'd 22126

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### love to hear some of the feedback that we got on 1 

### the other components. 2 

### MR. WEISS: Well, to come back to the 3 

### point we were discussing before, why isn't it 4 

### double? Why isn't double section double of 5 

### single section, if you're doubling the floor 6 

### space. Maybe you're not. 7 

### MR. WALKER: Right. Yeah, I think it's, 8 

### what you said there at the end, the double 9 

### section tends to not be as long as a single 10 

### section. So even though it's about twice as wide 11 

### it's not the same length. 12 

### MR. BARBOUR: So this is Ed Barbour at 13 

### Navigant. The floor area of that was included in 14 

### PNNL's models. For double section it's 1,568 15 

### square feet, for single section it's 924 square 16 

### feet. So not quite double. 17 

### MS. HOFFMAN: Any comments? Okay. Let's 18 

### go on, please. 19 

### MR. WALKER: Okay. So now I move to a 20 

### different type of component. This is windows. 21 

### The top table has SHGC and the bottom has U 22127

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### factor. Anyone want to lead off with one or the 1 

### other? 2 

### MR. KESSLER: This is Bert. The code, 3 

### HUD code, does not require a solar heat gain 4 

### coefficient. 5 

### MR. WALKER: Okay. Yes, I think that 6 

### makes sense, and so the incrementals that you see 7 

### here are basically coming from a no requirement 8 

### or a standard window to a window that has better 9 

### SHGC, sorry. Go ahead, Ed. 10 

### MR. BARBOUR: This is Ed Barbour with 11 

### Navigant. So, the IECC codes do require SHGC. 12 

### So, windows, even coming up with straw man can be 13 

### difficult as anybody that's dealt with windows 14 

### knows that when you're dealing with multiple 15 

### attributes it's hard to separate costs out. We 16 

### were able to find a report done in 20 -- I'm 17 

### going to get the date wrong, but it's Faithful 18 

### and Gould, it was done in support of the IECC 19 

### determination at PNNL. I was able to break out 20 

### costs by both SHGC and U value, give me sort of 21 

### representative. 22128

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### They're not necessarily additive. 1 

### Actually, they are not additive. So you couldn't 2 

### go and add up the two and expect to be the same 3 

### cost because of the way products are. This is a 4 

### product area that -- to help serve the working 5 

### group we would, you know, love to have better 6 

### data in terms of the windows that you're 7 

### installing, that you're using, as well as the 8 

### performance levels, since it is sort of a 9 

### multiattribute type product. 10 

### But this is what we used for the straw 11 

### man to try to make it work and, like I said, look 12 

### for feedback. 13 

### MR. CASKEY: I'm not sure if you touched 14 

### on this before but at certain times manufacturers 15 

### were sort of hesitant to give real data. But in 16 

### the past and working with DOE they've been able 17 

### to provide that data confidentially to DOE and 18 

### it's not become part of the official record, so 19 

### it's never exposed to the public. So I don't 20 

### know if that's something that would help us in 21 

### this particular case, just to make sure that all 22129

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### the manufacturers -- can you correct me what the 1 

### legal aspect of that is? 2 

### MR. HAGERMAN: This is Joe Hagerman, DOE. 3 

### Yeah, we've made that request to all the 4 

### manufacturers, and Navigant can execute those 5 

### confidentiality agreements and collect that data 6 

### and just report up the aggregate to DOE. That's 7 

### how it's done in the past. 8 

### We made that offer, I think. Emanuel is 9 

### collecting that data for the manufacturers and 10 

### acting as that conduit. But ultimately we've got 11 

### to populate these tables or we're kind of at, you 12 

### know, a standstill. Or we'll just use the data 13 

### that Navigant gets us and we'll just move on off 14 

### the cost topic all together. 15 

### MS. STARKEY: Yes. I'll just speak for 16 

### Emanuel. I've been jumping on Emanuel. This is 17 

### Lois from MHI. But I think we -- the end of the 18 

### week will be the late -- you know, if we could do 19 

### it earlier we will but we are, you know, working 20 

### really hard to get that data. It's not as easy 21 

### as you might imagine. And there is reluctance, 22130

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### and there has been, for a variety of reasons that 1 

### they don't want to deal directly with DOE. But 2 

### we are -- you know, we do have about 10 3 

### manufacturers that have stepped up. Again, but 4 

### we're going to have to go back to them in order 5 

### to have the data real because we gave them a 6 

### chart, gave them all the little cells to fill in 7 

### and they sent it back, you know, you know, some 8 

### of the cells not filled in and so we're having -- 9 

### you know, it's a lot of person hours and time 10 

### getting it, so we'll try to get it as fast. 11 

### We're not dragging our feet. I can assure you. 12 

### MS. HOFFMAN: Thank you, Lois. 13 

### MR. LUBLINER: This is Mike Lubliner. I 14 

### had a question regarding that effort. I've been 15 

### talking with people within the industry for quite 16 

### a few years about how they price their products 17 

### and I understand it is confidential and I respect 18 

### that. 19 

### I want to make sure that, as I said 20 

### before, when we are collecting cost data from 21 

### manufacturers or from insulation suppliers, 22131

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### manufacturers, that we're really clear that these 1 

### are costs that we expect would be steady state 2 

### costs that would be expected in a volume 3 

### procurement associated with a code change, and 4 

### not an option pricing when that code change -- 5 

### you know, that status quo option pricing. 6 

### My understanding is that markups the 7 

### manufacturer uses on special orders are almost 8 

### twice in some cases, what they price something if 9 

### it's part of the code. And so I want to make 10 

### sure that we're not misrepresenting the costs as 11 

### costs that are a special order and not mainstream 12 

### costs given a code change. Thank you. 13 

### MS. STARKEY: And this is Lois from MHI. 14 

### I assure you, Michael, that we will be using 15 

### numbers that we use as a matter of standard 16 

### practice when they build and sell a home to a 17 

### retailer. 18 

### Now what a retailer does after the home 19 

### is sold to the retailer and then the retailer 20 

### sells it to the homeowner is another matter all 21 

### together. But we will be providing you numbers 22132

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### that we -- that the manufacturers provide to 1 

### their customers, their direct customers who are 2 

### the retailers. 3 

### MR. EZZO: Lois this is -- 4 

### MR. LUBLINER: and is that as a special 5 

### order, or -- 6 

### MR. EZZO: Lois, this is Mark Ezzo. I 7 

### think there may be some confusion here. The 8 

### material costs that we're providing, those 9 

### manufacturers are providing is our cost that we 10 

### buy from Owens Corning or Johns Manville, or 11 

### Kernow Windows. It's our cost. It's not 12 

### necessarily what we're charging the retailer. 13 

### Okay? 14 

### MS. STARKEY: Well, let me just correct 15 

### that. I think what -- Emanuel, help me if I'm 16 

### wrong. But I think what we'll end up doing is 17 

### doing a standard markup cost above that material 18 

### cost. I think that's what we're planning to do. 19 

### MR. EZZO: So you're going to be 20 

### providing a cost -- 21


### MS. STARKEY: Yes. 22133

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### MR. EZZO: -- that is not the 1 

### manufacturer's material cost -- 2


### MS. STARKEY: Correct. 3 

### MR. EZZO: -- you're going to be giving a 4 

### cost that's factored up to either the retailer or 5 

### the consumer? 6 

### MS. STARKEY: That's correct. 7 

### MR. EZZO: Okay. 8 

### MS. STARKEY: And we can't really do it 9 

### to the consumer, but I don't think it's a fair 10 

### statement to say we can do that to the consumer 11 

### at this point, but we can certainly do it to the 12 

### retailer because the -- you can make a standard 13 

### average, I think, from what a retailer, but 14 

### sometimes depending on the market, a retailer may 15 

### mark up an option, you know, 30 percent or 50 16 

### percent. That's really hard to know. But we'll 17 

### have a retail markup that is used in a standard 18 

### retail analysis. 19 

### MR. EZZO: I guess to Mike Lubliner's 20 

### question, though, Mike, the number us 21 

### manufacturers are giving are not going to be 22134

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### factored. We're going to give what we pay for 1 

### R11 and R19 and a dual glaze low-e window and 2 

### those kind of things. 3 

### MR. LUBLINER: At current pricing? 4 

### MR. EZZO: At current pricing, yeah. 5 

### MR. LUBLINER: So if those -- 6 

### MR. EZZO: We're not going separate out 7 

### and say, well, R21 is an option material so we're 8 

### going to give a, you know, accelerated price or 9 

### an increased price. We're going to give you what 10 

### we pay for it. 11 

### MR. LUBLINER: Very good. Thanks, Mark. 12 

### Thanks, Lois. 13 

### MR. ROY: And, Mark, this is Robin. 14 

### Question. Do you have any insight as to whether 15 

### if you are buying in greater volume as you would 16 

### if it's under a standard, if you're buying 17 

### greater volume whether that would change the 18 

### pricing you're getting from the manufacturers? 19 

### MR. EZZO: Yeah, Robin. It's hard to 20 

### say. I mean, we would have to go back to our 21 

### suppliers and say, you know, give us an estimate 22135

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### as to what R21 would be, for example, if in stead 1 

### of buying this many pounds a year we're buying 2 

### that many pounds a year. And we haven't done 3 

### that. 4 

### MR. SANTANA: This is Manny -- 5 

### MS. HOFFMAN: Comment for people on the 6 

### phone? Just excuse me a second. Eileen Hoffman. 7 

### MR. SANTANA: Yeah, this is -- 8 

### MS. HOFFMAN: If you're on the phone, 9 

### please give your name first because this is being 10 

### a written record. So, and we'd also like to know 11 

### who you are. Thank you. 12 

### MR. LEVY: This is Emanuel. 13 

### MR. SANTANA: This is -- 14 

### MR. LEVY: Robin, I wanted to take 15 

### another shot at your question. I can give you 16 

### some anecdotal information right now about the 17 

### data we've collected. For any one data point, 18 

### any one insulation level, there might be a plus 19 

### or minus 20 or 30 percent difference in cost 20 

### among manufacturers, simply because you're 21 

### comparing small companies with large companies. 22136

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### It may also be more expensive for one 1 

### manufacturer to buy one insulation material in 2 

### one market because it's a-typical. So we're 3 

### trying to take that all into account and have a 4 

### blended average rate for all the cases. Won't be 5 

### perfect, but it will be as close as we can get. 6 

### MR. LUBLINER: This is Mike Lubliner. 7 

### Thanks, Emanuel. 8 

### Getting back to Mark's explanation, I 9 

### think if it's possible, and I don't know that 10 

### it's possible, but if it is possible, as you're 11 

### engaging these suppliers of insulation. If you 12 

### could get to the question that Robert tried to 13 

### articulate based on my comment, you know, in 14 

### other words, R21, R13, R15 I think are the big 15 

### ones. What do you expect if this was mainstream 16 

### code that the insulation manufacturers could 17 

### total up for the volumes expected? You know, 18 

### what do we expect, and if it's a small percentage 19 

### we don't have to worry about it, but it would be 20 

### interesting to get that because I think that 21 

### we'll be able to take advantage of the buying 22137

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### power of the industry pooling its resources 1 

### between small and large manufacturers if we 2 

### engage the suppliers and the insulation 3 

### manufacturers with that discussion. 4 

### And that's kind of why I suggested that 5 

### perhaps DOE want to do that independent of this 6 

### effort, or in conjunction with this effort. 7 

### Thank you. 8 

### MS. HOFFMAN: Eileen Hoffman. I think we 9 

### have what, one more slide, or two more slides? 10 

### Okay. And then we'll make a few remarks and 11 

### break for lunch. But let's hear that. Thank 12


### you. 13 

### MR. UNGER: Sorry, just one more -- 14 

### UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: How are the 15 

### windows applied, if I might? 16 

### MR. UNGER: Sorry. I had one brief 17 

### comment on windows. Lowell Unger. I believe 18 

### there is also Energy Star studies on price 19 

### differential that would be another source of 20 

### information, and I don't think Eric Lacey is at 21 

### this meeting, but I think he was also hoping to 22138

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### seek from the window manufacturers, some 1 

### information. So you can check with him. 2 

### MS. HOFFMAN: Okay. I think he's going 3 

### to be here tomorrow. 4 

### MR. LUTER: This is Rob Luter. I have a 5


### comment. 6 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: Yeah, go ahead, Rob. 7 

### MR. LUTER: As a window manufacturer I'd 8 

### like to say that there are construction 9 

### attributes that are going to benefit both U value 10 

### and solar heat gain at the same time. So the 11 

### earlier comment that you can't necessarily 12 

### separate them is very accurate. 13 

### The other observation I'll have, and I'll 14 

### defer final judgment until Emanuel runs all the 15 

### numbers, but I see these figures as being 16 

### understated, for what I'll call street prices. 17 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: Do you have some numbers 18 

### that you could plug in? 19 

### MR. LUTER: Those have already been 20 

### furnished to Emanuel for his analysis. 21 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: Okay. 22139

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### MR. LUTER: And he'll be furnishing 1 

### those, I guess by the end of the week. 2 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: Perfect. Thanks. 3 

### MR. WALKER: Okay. I'll move on to the 4 

### envelope leakage slide. Same story here. We 5 

### have three different levels of leakage with 6 

### prices for double and single section homes. 7 

### Any initial feedback that we can hear 8 

### today in advance of the cost data later in the 9 

### week? 10 

### MR. LEVY: Matthew, actually, we don't 11 

### have the final list of cost information to 12 

### provide. But if you have associated with each of 13 

### these levels to see the construction differences, 14 

### we can certainly go back and get that 15 

### information. 16 

### Hang on. 17 

### MR. WALKER: Okay. 18 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: Yeah, if you could that 19 

### would be great. Thanks, Emanuel. Mark? 20 

### MR. LUBLINER: This is Mike Lubliner. On 21 

### the envelope leakage step I think it's important 22140

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### that it depends on kind of where you're starting 1 

### and where you're going. For example, it may be 2 

### that going from a single pane window in Zone 1 to 3 

### a double prime vinyl is going to get you a 4 

### significant amount of envelope reduction without 5 

### spending any money associated with envelope 6 

### leakage. That cost has been appropriated to the 7 

### better window. 8 

### So as Rob was pointing out, it's hard to 9 

### separate out solar heat gain coefficient from U 10 

### value. 11 

### To some extent, at least with the leakier 12 

### base case homes, the window leakage is 13 

### contributing significantly to this envelope 14 

### leakage, and it has a different cost than say 15 

### caulking and sealing or other things that require 16 

### additional material or labor. Thank you. 17 

### MR. LUTER: This is Rob Luter. Actually 18 

### all HUD certified windows have the same leakage 19 

### maximums, whether they're the least expensive 20 

### aluminum single glazed, or the most expensive 21 

### vinyl dual glazed. 22141

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### MR. LUBLINER: So if we builder tested 1 

### both those homes they'd come in at the same 2 

### number? 3 

### MR. LUTER: Yes, sir. With respect to 4 

### the window leakage. 5 

### MR. LUBLINER: But the respect to the air 6 

### change of the house at 50 pascals. You blower 7 

### door the same identical house, one has got a 8 

### single pane aluminum window, the other has got 9 

### the double pane vinyl window, and you're 10 

### saying -- am I hearing what you're saying Rob, is 11 

### that we're going to get the same air change 50 12 

### pascal blower door test? 13 

### MR. LUTER: I'm saying that I'm a 1701, 14 

### which is the standard for windows used in 15 

### manufactured housing; limits air leakage to 16 

### windows -- or excuse me, for windows to .3 cfm 17 

### per square foot, regardless of materials used or 18 

### design. 19 

### MR. LUBLINER: I totally understand. 20 

### This is Mike Lubliner again. Just to follow up. 21 

### Maybe Emanuel you can -- you have built a lot of 22142

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### Energy Star homes where you've changed from a 1 

### single pane aluminum, I'm assuming, to a double 2 

### pane vinyl. Are you seeing any difference in air 3 

### change rate from the thousands of homes that have 4 

### been built with that change? Because we do when 5 

### we test better windows. We see tighter homes. 6 

### MR. LEVY: Yeah, two thoughts about that, 7 

### Michael. It's an interesting point you're 8 

### bringing up. One is we test the Energy Star 9 

### homes, but we don't have a big database of non10 

### Energy Star homes to compare those with. We have 11 

### our targets for Energy Star and it's hard to, as 12 

### you would know, to do an effective comparison 13 

### against something that's not being built. 14 

### MR. LUBLINER: So the savings is -- 15 

### that's not there, the savings isn't there, then? 16 

### MR. LEVY: No, I'm not saying that. 17 

### Just, we haven't measured it. We haven't looked 18 

### at it. 19 

### MR. LUBLINER: Okay. You haven't 20 

### measured it. Thanks. 21 

### MR. LEVY: And also it's hard, when you 22143

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### do a blower door test, to distinguish between 1 

### what the leakage part that's attributable to the 2 

### windows versus everything else in the building. 3 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: Thank you. Oh, sorry, 4 

### Mark. 5 

### MR. WEISS: Yeah. This is Mark Weiss. 6 

### Does the model reflect testing costs, or is that 7 

### just materials? 8 

### MR. WALKER: I think we would 9 

### characterize this as materials. 10 

### MR. WEISS: Materials only. 11 

### MR. WALKER: Yeah. 12 

### MR. WEISS: Is testing caught somewhere 13 

### else in the model? 14 

### MR. WALKER: So I guess you're referring 15 

### specific -- well, I don't know. I see what your 16 

### question is. I guess testing cost is not 17 

### specifically addressed in the LCC model at this 18 

### point. Is that something that you'd like to see 19 

### included? 20 

### MR. BARBOUR: No, this is Ed Barbour with 21 

### Navigant. No, we haven't included the cost in 22144

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### this analysis of testing equipment and/or, you 1 

### know, the labor. So it's just the labor and the 2 

### materials in order to seal the product. 3 

### MR. WEISS: Yep. Thank you. 4 

### MR. WALKER: Okay. I'll do the final 5 

### slide here, duct leakage. 6 

### MR. LUBLINER: This is Mike Lubliner. I 7 

### had a question about assumptions here, and a 8 

### question for the industry to ponder. 9 

### Our experience in moving from foil tapes 10 

### to sealed ducts in the Northwest to Mastic, was 11 

### that the tapes and the Mastic had about the same 12 

### labor and incremental costs; they were 13 

### comparable. And the way that we're getting 14 

### tighter ducts in general is by going to Mastic 15 

### and testing. 16 

### Now as Mark said, question about testing 17 

### aside, if we leave the cost of the testing of the 18 

### ducts to confirm that they're tight out of the 19 

### equation, what are these 292.30, or what do these 20 

### numbers represent? Is this some incremental cost 21 

### of Mastic over tape and incremental labor 22145

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### associated with applying the Mastic? I need to 1 

### better understand that. 2 

### I would suggest that from our experience, 3 

### there is no incremental cost because the labor 4 

### and the materials are roughly the same whether 5 

### you use Mastic or tape. I may be wrong and I'd 6 

### look to the manufacturers outside our region to 7 

### provide me some guidance. Thank you. 8 

### MS. HOFFMAN: Any comments? 9 

### MR. LUBLINER: Hearing on comments. 10 

### MS. HOFFMAN: Okay. 11 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: Yeah. 12 

### MR. LUBLINER: You mean I'm right? 13 

### MS. HOFFMAN: I think we're getting close 14 

### to lunch, also. 15 

### MR. ROY: Hang on. Robin here. We have 16 

### one thing that's on these slides that's not 17 

### shown. It's the subsequent slide with 18 

### incremental costs for heat pump water heaters and 19 

### more efficient heating equipment, water and 20 

### space. It's interesting too. While it's not 21 

### clearly something we're going to set a standard 22146

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### on, it's something that we clearly need to 1 

### understand better and it's something that's still 2 

### within our consideration. 3 

### MR. DENNIS: And I have maybe a more 4 

### basic question. Do homes -- are we having any 5 

### consideration for say, Energy Star ready or heat 6 

### pump ready house? Like, I know it's not 7 

### necessarily an efficiency measure, but I know 8 

### part of the problems that we have with retrofits 9 

### is that the way the homes are built it's hard to 10 

### put some of these more efficient appliances in, 11 

### and I don't know if that's something that's even 12 

### touched upon, upon what we're doing. If there's 13 

### design considerations for if somebody wants to 14 

### upgrade to a different product. 15 

### So, my kind of not understanding of 16 

### exactly how industry works, so I was just 17 

### throwing that out there as a question. 18 

### UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: That's probably 19 

### not for you. 20 

### MR. WALKER: Yeah, it's not for me. 21 

### MR. DENNIS: No, that's Keith Dennis. 22147

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### MR. WALKER: That's a decision the 1 

### working group could come to as to the types of 2 

### standards and regulations that you're interested 3 

### in. 4 

### MR. HAGERMAN: So Joe Hagerman, DOE. I 5 

### think we can easily add Robin's slide on the cost 6 

### difference between the equipment, you know, 7 

### configurations. But I'm not sure how we would 8 

### address, you know, this idea that the product be 9 

### ready for a higher type of equipment. I'm not 10 

### sure how we would get to that. 11 

### MR. WALKER: Okay. 12 

### MR. HAGERMAN: But we'd welcome a 13 

### recommendation or some how to -- it's not like we 14 

### don't want to think about it. We just don't know 15 

### how to necessarily think about it, so. 16 

### MR. ROY: This is Robin. Actually, maybe 17 

### it's a good question for some of the 18 

### manufacturers who make a fair number of Energy 19 

### Star homes that end up with heat pumps in them. 20 

### Maybe they have a sense of what they do or don’t 21 

### do differently to make their products more ready 22148

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### to accept them. 1 

### MR. EZZO: This is Mark Ezzo at Clayton. 2 

### I don't know that we do anything different. I 3 

### mean, the house leaves with a furnace and a 4 

### blower, air handler, and if on site it gets a 5 

### heat pump I don't know that we do a whole lot 6 

### different at the plant side. 7 

### MR. DENNIS: So just practically 8 

### speaking, if a utility wanted to incentivize a 9 

### different type of heating product that was more 10 

### efficient it would mean switching out something 11 

### that was already shipped with a new product and 12 

### disposing of the old furnace and blower? Is that 13 

### how it works now? I don't know. 14 

### MR. LUBLINER: This is Mike Lubliner. My 15 

### understanding is Mark is correct that basically 16 

### what heat pump ready means -- 17 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: Michael, for some reason 18 

### you faded out there. 19 

### (Lubliner was accidentally disconnected.) 20 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: All right. Well, if we 21 

### need to continue that discussion after lunch we 22149

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### could do so. I think this was the last slide. 1 

### But we do want to make you aware of one change on 2 

### the agenda when we come back. Instead of getting 3 

### into the committee reports Robin has agreed to 4 

### move his discussion from the second day to the 5 

### first day on affordability, and so we're going to 6 

### have that discussion after lunch. 7 

### MS. HOFFMAN: Yeah. And then after that 8 

### we'll have subcommittee reports, and of course 9 

### also think about during lunch any additional data 10 

### that you can provide for this working group. 11 

### Thank you. 12 

### So let's see, what time is now? 13 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: It's noon. 14 

### MS. HOFFMAN: Noon. Please come back at 15 

### 1:00. Thank you. 16 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: Okay. Great. Thank you, 17 

### Matthew. 18 

### (Lunch break from 11:59 a.m. until 1:04 19 

### p.m.) 20 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: Okay. Let's go ahead and 21 

### get started. Since I modified the schedule 22150

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### slightly and we put Robin up here for his 1 

### affordability concept discussion, and so I 2 

### modified the agenda to incorporate that, so 3 

### Robin, whenever you're ready come on up and if 4 

### you could lead us through? 5 

### MR. ROY: Well, I think you all know that 6 

### I've been very interested in this topic of 7 

### affordability and how we're going to deal with 8 

### this issue as it comes forward. We'll see some 9 

### numbers and we'll have some reasonable costs that 10 

### we're trying to understand how to balance with 11 

### out -- the cost effectiveness and the 12 

### affordability. 13 

### What that's led me to over a while is the 14 

### need to come up with something that allows us to 15 

### carve out a group of manufactured homes for whom 16 

### entry costs or initial costs, that first term of 17 

### ownership are particularly limiting and 18 

### challenging, and come up with something which is 19 

### cost effective for them. 20 

### So in that case, what seemed to make 21 

### sense to me is to suggest that we use two product 22151

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### types that allow us to balance affordability 1 

### issues and efficiency objectives that we're all 2 

### working towards. The nature of the act, it 3 

### directs DOE to come up with a standard that has 4 

### cost effectiveness defined in a way that's 5 

### different from what's typically done for 6 

### appliance standards. They talk about life cycle 7 

### cost and they talk about purchase price. These 8 

### are both, they're interesting, they're different. 9 

### I think there's actually a wise bit of guidance 10 

### that they came up with to cause some more 11 

### reflection on DOE's part and now on our part 12 

### about how you balance different time horizons, 13 

### different perspectives, recognizing that 14 

### manufactured housing has a particular important 15 

### role in the nation's affordable housing policy. 16 

### In any case, so I'm suggesting that we 17 

### come up with a product definition that has -- or 18 

### a term sheet that has four parts. The first two 19 

### are a set of technical requirements for a product 20 

### type, for lack of a better name. I'll call it 21 

### FO, for Full Options. Technical requirements for 22152

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### a product type which we'll call LO, limited 1 

### options which has lower first cost and lower 2 

### efficiency as a result, but is more -- but you 3 

### know, by virtue of its lower first cost is going 4 

### to be something which those more constrained 5 

### households can get into, and now we get to some 6 

### other interesting parts. 7 

### I think while it may be a little bit 8 

### outside the direct ASRAC charter for us, we also 9 

### need to think, quite specifically if we take such 10 

### an approach as this, about working with DOE or 11 

### having DOE work with EPA towards updated Energy 12 

### Star criteria based on what we learn through this 13 

### process. And again, if we take this to this two 14 

### product type approach, we also need to be clear 15 

### that the federal government, DOE working with 16 

### HUD, I think in this case, and comes up with 17 

### energy labeling for these two different product 18 

### types, that really helps consumers with their 19 

### decision making and their understanding the 20 

### difference between these product types. 21 

### Anyway. So what I'm suggesting is two 22153

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### different product types, LO and FO. And just as 1 

### a side note, when DOE is setting appliance 2 

### efficiency standards they typically use the word 3 

### product class. It's the term of art, it's the 4 

### parlance at DOE. I think it's based on a variety 5 

### of feedback I got as I discussed this with many 6 

### of you over the last -- well, last day and a 7 

### half. It's nice to use something like the word 8 

### type as opposed to the word class, even though 9 

### that is what DOE normally uses. So that's 10 

### something. I don't know, Joe, how much freedom 11 

### you guys have in using different words, but I'd 12 

### suggest that. 13 

### Okay. Let's talk about these four parts 14 

### of the term sheet. First, the product type FO. 15 

### You may recall in one of our meetings either two 16 

### or four weeks ago, we were looking at the 17 

### different definitions that we would be 18 

### considering, the different, the financial and 19 

### life cycle cost assumptions that we'd be looking 20 

### towards and we came up with three groups. We had 21 

### a worst case, a best case, and a weighted average 22154

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### case. And those were reflected in some way 1 

### different time horizons of buyers, reflecting 2 

### different discount rates and financing ability. 3 

### Do you guys all recall that? Do you 4 

### recall that? It's part of that term sheet 5 

### framework document and it's one of the bits which 6 

### has a consensus tick next to it, that we're going 7 

### to have these three different perspectives that 8 

### we were looking at when we were doing cost 9 

### effectiveness assessment. If you don't remember 10 

### it, let me know and I'll send through again that 11 

### term sheet framework document and it will refresh 12


### your memory. 13 

### In any case, my -- pardon? 14 

### UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Go ahead. 15 

### MR. ROY: I didn't hear that. I think 16 

### it's useful to actually refer back to that and 17 

### think about how those different perspectives 18 

### actually should show up in a proper DOE standard. 19 

### So, in any case, for the full options 20 

### product type, I'm suggesting the efficiency level 21 

### should be based on maximizing the cost 22155

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### effectiveness to all owners over a home's life. 1 

### So that's -- it's the 30 year, whatever year 2 

### life, of that home which will have many different 3 

### -- there are several different owners in it. 4 

### The cost effectiveness assumptions would 5 

### be based on that weighted average cost case that 6 

### -- weighted average case that we have from that 7 

### term sheet, framework document. They physical 8 

### characteristics, what manufactured home is going 9 

### to have to comply with this FO technical 10 

### requirement? I'm suggesting it's all the 11 

### manufactured homes that are not type LO. So 12 

### we'll get to that type LO in a moment. 13 

### The compliance paths would be the full 14 

### range of prescriptive UA, U -- all the options 15 

### that are in IECC now. I'm not sure about the 16 

### HERS rating because there's some question about 17 

### that. But in any case it's basically suggesting 18 

### we delegate that to a separate discussion. 19 

### But we are looking at a broad sort of 20 

### compliance paths. We have physical 21 

### characteristics that are defined by exception. 22156

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### In any case, so now on to part which is 1 

### really most interesting, how does that differ -- 2 

### the full options product type differ from the 3 

### limited options product type? Well, it differs 4 

### in certain very important ways. First, the 5 

### efficiency level we'd be looking at for this LO 6 

### product type would be based on maximizing the 7 

### cost effectiveness to the first owner. 8 

### Now you might recall that that was pretty 9 

### much what defined the worst case in the term 10 

### sheet framework document from a couple of weeks 11 

### ago. If you don't recall that, take a look back. 12 

### And all the details associated with that would go 13 

### into the analysis that Navigant and DOE are doing 14 

### here. 15 

### I should also so, you know, one thing, we 16 

### had this nice discussion this morning about that 17 

### curve, and where on the curve we want to be. 18 

### Where the -- there's something that's also 19 

### interesting. That curve is not the same curve 20 

### depending on what cost of financing you're 21 

### assuming, right? It's a different curve if 22157

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### you're talking a chattel loan or a weighted 1 

### average consumer cost of financing. Those are 2 

### different curves. 3 

### So I think in this product type you end 4 

### up with different curve and you're choosing a 5 

### different point on it. What you'd be choosing 6 

### here is the cost minimizing point from a curve 7 

### that has characteristics of the more financially 8 

### constrained buyer that's out there. 9 

### The physical characteristics -- what is 10 

### interesting to me is to see if you can define a 11 

### set of attributes for a typical entry level or 12 

### basic home, a limited options home that overlays 13 

### reasonably well with these financing constrained 14 

### folks. And one of the thoughts that came out 15 

### was, well, maybe the window floor area ratio is a 16 

### pretty good indicator. Windows are a nice 17 

### amenity. They tend to be reasonably expensive 18 

### and drive up cost for a home. They also have 19 

### some particular bearing on the energy 20 

### performance. So windows are kind of nice in 21 

### three ways, kind of a trifecta there. 22158

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### So we can figure out and look into the 1 

### manufacturers for this, can we figure out sort of 2 

### an egress requirements based window, floor area 3 

### ratio that defines a generally low cost -- low 4 

### first cost home? That might be a good product 5 

### definition. 6 

### I throw that out. The reason I have a 7 

### little question mark here is I suggest a 8 

### window/wall area ratio of less than 11 percent. 9 

### Not sure that's the right number. I'm not sure 10 

### that window/wall area ratio, whether that should 11 

### be a function of whether it's a single or a 12 

### double section. But if we can carve out a good 13 

### definition of a product type that is aimed 14 

### towards lower first cost, that would be very 15 

### useful. 16 

### My first suggestion is of less than 11 17 

### percent window/wall area ratio. Sorry, window 18 

### floor area ratio. Got the wrong number there. 19 

### The compliance path I can imagine we'd 20 

### have a different set of options for the 21 

### compliance path; maybe not using the full suite 22159

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### of options that are laid out in the IECC. Maybe 1 

### you use them all. Maybe you restrict it to UA. 2 

### Maybe you restrict it to prescriptive. Maybe you 3 

### have all three. But it's an area for discussion. 4 

### It doesn't have to be the same suite of 5 

### compliance path options. 6 

### And finally I suggested that it would 7 

### seem reasonable for this limited options product 8 

### type to limit the total amount of production 9 

### that's out there. the objective being for that, 10 

### that we want to make sure that we get the 11 

### economies of scale in the full options production 12 

### that allow higher efficiency units to not be 13 

### disadvantaged, just because they have been -- 14 

### because they are relatively rare. The 15 

### manufacturers won't be buying in such volume for 16 

### them. 17 

### Not sure how important that is, but I can 18 

### imagine that that's important. I've suggested a 19 

### 30 percent as a starting point limit and can't 20 

### see how DOE would apply such a thing other than 21 

### on a per manufacturer basis. But again, up for 22160

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### consideration. 1 

### Right. So the notes really basically say 2 

### much of the same. One thing which I should also 3 

### draw to your attention is there is a process that 4 

### DOE, through the Office of Hearings and Appeals, 5 

### once a standard has been adopted for a 6 

### manufacturer to seek an exception or an 7 

### exemption. There's nothing in this definition 8 

### which would get in the way of a manufacturer 9 

### seeking such an exception or exemption to make a 10 

### different efficiency level of a product. So that 11 

### is a different avenue that I suppose the 12 

### manufacturers may be aware of, but given that you 13 

### haven't been regulated by DOE, you may not be 14 

### familiar with. And it's an important one to 15 

### note. And if you have a manufacturer that's 16 

### going to be particular disadvantaged by the 17 

### standards which come out, even under this more -- 18 

### even under this approach which allows a 19 

### considerably lower efficiency level to come 20 

### through, there is an approach for remedy. And 21 

### DOE does regularly rule in favor of manufacturers 22161

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### and allow them to build something differently. 1 

### Okay. Now on to the last bits of this. 2 

### So two types of two types, full options, limited 3 

### options, and then updating Energy Star. There's 4 

### no question that as we go through this process we 5 

### are going to find there are thermal opportunities 6 

### that go beyond what we see in Energy Star. It 7 

### would be quite surprising if Energy Star was 8 

### taking full advantage of all the cost effective 9 

### energy efficiency that's out there. Maybe it is, 10 

### maybe it's not. But what would be great would be 11 

### for Department of Energy to undertake as part of 12 

### this exercise, on a specified timeline, to work 13 

### with EPA to come out with a new definition of 14 

### Energy Star. 15 

### I think that's particularly important 16 

### because as we were discussing earlier, I mean, we 17 

### will fund -- and I should also say that updated 18 

### Energy Star, that might be based on the best case 19 

### under that term sheet document, with more 20 

### reflecting a societal discount rate. 21 

### This would be something which utilities 22162

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### or other efficiency providers could avail 1 

### themselves up in defining their own programs. 2 

### Lots of utilities have energy efficiency 3 

### programs. They're looking for something to hinge 4 

### those off. They often reference Energy Star. It 5 

### would be useful to have a specific Energy Star 6 

### criteria upgrading, updating. And we're going to 7 

### learn something through this process. 8 

### Now, I'm presupposing what the numbers 9 

### will show, but I assume that there will be 10 

### something that's different. 11 

### It's not really clearly part of our 12 

### charter, but we're going to learn something 13 

### that's really relevant, so we should bring it in. 14 

### And the fourth piece of this proposal is 15 

### to have a clear energy label that allows 16 

### consumers to actually easily acquire information 17 

### about what the implications of the purchase 18 

### decisions are. And I'd propose that should be a 19 

### permanently affixed energy label. It would 20 

### actually fit quite well with HUD's current 21 

### requirement to have a permanently affixed tag of 22163

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### some sort. So DOE, again, would have to work 1 

### very closely with HUD to figure out what's a way 2 

### to get that permanently affixed labeling done. 3 

### You know, this is a HUD activity, generally. 4 

### But what's interesting is there is energy 5 

### information on the current HUD label, I believe. 6 

### But it's not the kind that's really straight 7 

### forward for a buyer to make use of. It doesn't 8 

### put -- well, here's an example of what might be 9 

### more easy for a buyer to understand. This is an 10 

### energy guide label that's typical of, you know, 11 

### an FTC label. It shows what the dollars are for 12 

### models coming out this year. It puts this 13 

### particular model right there in front of you, so 14 

### you can see what the energy use is, what the 15 

### dollar spent is for the types of fuel. Something 16 

### along these lines which makes it easier for a 17 

### consumer to see what type of spend they might be 18 

### having if they're making a decision to go with an 19 

### LO as opposed to an FO. Just useful, not just 20 

### for that first buyer but for resale buyers as 21 

### well. 22164

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### I think that it's actually incumbent on 1 

### us if we take a two-product type approach to also 2 

### take a labeling -- to suggest that labeling is 3 

### important, and permanent labeling, to make it 4 

### clear why there are these options and what the 5 

### trading off is. 6 

### So, that's about it for my proposal, four 7 

### parts. I think if we don't address this issue of 8 

### affordability we're going to have some serious 9 

### challenges. I suspect that what DOE will do, it 10 

### will throw its hands up in the air, say we don't 11 

### know how to tradeoff between higher first costs, 12 

### and they're going to come and say, we're talking 13 

### three, $4,000, $5,000 per section, they're not 14 

### going to know how to address that. It is a 15 

### fundamentally challenging issue. We've been 16 

### talking around that issue a lot here. We want to 17 

### carve out a group that is particularly attune to 18 

### the least advantaged of our nation's households 19 

### on their path to homeownership, while still 20 

### getting as much energy efficiency that's cost 21 

### effective out, and while also leaving a great 22165

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### door for utilities and other supplementary energy 1 

### efficiency supporters to tag on and fill up the 2 

### remaining bit of energy efficiency. 3 

### That is my thought. We can send out this 4 

### all on one page to you. Have you sent that? 5 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: Just did. 6 

### MR. ROY: Excellent. So you guys should 7 

### all have a copy of this thing. You should 8 

### probably reflect on it for a little bit. I 9 

### suspect it doesn't really change what analysis we 10 

### should be doing, except in one degree, we 11 

### shouldn't have quite as many discussions and 12 

### debates about where we are on a curve. This 13 

### would allow us to be working towards two 14 

### different curves and two different points on two 15 

### curves, consistent with our earlier view that we 16 

### should be looking at three different perspectives 17 

### that allow us to move ahead of those, get some 18 

### real numbers, give us some comfort that we are 19 

### working on a path that's going to try to have 20 

### allowance for these different perspectives. 21 

### So it should encourage us to give DOE a 22166

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### better path forward. But we have lots of 1 

### questions that need to be considered, like what's 2 

### the right product type definitions. Is it 3 

### window/floor area ratio? What are the right 4 

### compliance paths? What fraction of production 5 

### limits should there be? There are a number of 6 

### details. You know, anyway. I'll throw it out to 7


### you. 8 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: Initial comments or 9 

### questions? 10 

### MS. STARKEY: Well, I'll start off by 11 

### first thanking you, Robin, for really 12 

### thoughtfully -- 13 

### MS. HOFFMAN: That's Lois speaking. 14 

### MS. STARKEY: Oh, I'm sorry. For 15 

### thoughtfully putting together a proposal that 16 

### addresses, you know, the lowest income of home 17 

### buyers. And you know, I think it has some merit 18 

### for, you know, to think about as we have been -- 19 

### as our membership has been addressing this issue 20 

### informally and looking at updates to the 94 21 

### standard. We did actually consider the idea of a 22167

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### small home because when we looked at the IECC we 1 

### realized that the smaller homes going on the 2 

### Northeast would have trouble meeting the new 3 

### energy code. So we did look at this concept of 4 

### two different standards, if you will, or 5 

### something different for -- you know, it's two 6 

### different standards, basically. 7 

### And we ultimately rejected it. I don't 8 

### really think that we rejected it firmly, but we, 9 

### you know, we took another path as we moved 10 

### forward with our effort. And that was because 11 

### mainly we liked to have as much uniformity in the 12 

### process. And in the real world when you're out 13 

### there in the -- when people are actually out 14 

### there building the homes in the factory it's a 15 

### lot. You know, they've got a, you know, a sheet 16 

### that goes along with every home and they now have 17 

### Energy Star, they have whatever, you know, home 18 

### design it is. But then they're going to yet have 19 

### another standard, and then they have the modular 20 

### home and it's just -- it's awkward in the real 21 

### world to actually make that work. 22168

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### So, but that doesn't mean that we can't, 1 

### you know, relook at it. You know, I think we 2 

### need to, you know, take a serious look at it 3 

### because it certainly addresses an issue that 4 

### we're concerned about. 5 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: Thank you, Louis. Mark? 6 

### MR. WEISS: Mark Weiss. Thank you. 7 

### First, Robin, thanks for putting that together. 8 

### Appreciate it. Appreciate the thought that went 9 

### into it and I think you've raised -- you've 10 

### addressed a number of important issues. 11 

### I can see some areas in this where small 12 

### manufacturers could have some problems, 13 

### particularly with respect to the production 14 

### limit. I mean, once you get down to smaller 15 

### manufacturers, you have some manufacturers that 16 

### cater almost exclusively to an upper end market, 17 

### and then you have some manufacturers that deal 18 

### almost exclusively with a, you know, entry level 19 

### type market. So that would be something we'd 20 

### have to think about and also there are 21 

### implications related to a label where there's 22169

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### some history that we need to think about as well. 1 

### But a good thought and something we should 2 

### consider; think about. 3 

### MR. HAGERMAN: This is Joe Hagerman, DOE. 4 

### So, this is pretty consistent with how we might 5 

### think about regulating other products like 6 

### refrigerators where you have side by side doors, 7 

### or you know, top mount freezers and bottom mount 8 

### freezers. So I think there is some, you know, 9 

### consistency there if we can define the physical 10 

### attributes that differ. Right? Like you've 11 

### started to here in the window to wall ratios, for 12 

### example. 13 

### I don't like to -- even to Mark's point, 14 

### I'm not sure that we have the ability to limit 15 

### people's productions of, you know, side by side 16 

### refrigerators versus top mount refrigerators. 17 

### Right. So I mean, we'd have to understand that a 18 

### little bit more. So I'd take, you know, Mark's 19 

### point I think is something we'd have to think 20 

### about. 21 

### But, you know, I'm encouraged and 22170

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### whatever we can do to encourage this group to 1 

### come up with a consensus to help us understand, 2 

### you know, what's the best option for the public 3 

### here is what we need to be trying to support. So 4 

### if this group wants to come up with these two 5 

### different product classes, or types, I'm sorry, 6 

### then you know, let's explore that possibility. 7 

### Right? I mean, the affordability -- these 8 

### concepts of affordability, we have to struggle or 9 

### we have to come to terms with how we balance the 10 

### three things here, the 2015 IECC, the LCC, and 11 

### then the affordability issue. So those are our 12 

### three legs of the stool that we have to kind of 13 

### sit on, so. 14 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: Folks at home or offsite, 15 

### any questions or thoughts or comments? 16 

### MS. DICKENS: This is Ishbel. So, I 17 

### talked with Robin and Safety about this kind of 18 

### idea and I like it a lot. I was just curious 19 

### about something that Emanuel -- I think it was 20 

### Emanuel said this morning, about just improving 21 

### the wall insulation to be a minimally -- could be 22171

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### minimally costly but extremely effective in terms 1 

### of energy savings. And so could we look at those 2 

### kind of basic things as ones that we'd include to 3 

### lower our limited option bubble, because if we 4 

### can get a lot of value for a buck that way 5 

### without it being a huge impact on the cost of the 6 

### home, but a huge benefit to the consumer, that's 7 

### an approach that I think is very worthwhile. 8 

### I'm just curious what the manufacturers 9 

### would think of that. 10 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: Any manufacturers want to 11 

### chime in? 12 

### MR. LUBLINER: Hearing on manufacturers 13 

### chime in, this is Mike Lubliner. I want to thank 14 

### Robin for trying to untie this Gordian knot of 15 

### separating life cycle cost with the affordability 16 

### issues that Mark Weiss has continued to 17 

### articulate. 18 

### I guess I too want to get to consensus, 19 

### and I need to get a handle on just how many of 20 

### these 50,000 or 60,000 homes a year are really 21 

### going to fall into this product type LO based on 22172

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### the fact that they're entry level homes and 1 

### affordability. And so until we start to get some 2 

### feedback, not just in generalization but actual 3 

### percentage of the industry by climate zone or by 4 

### house type, or ideally by both, it's really hard 5 

### for me to compromise or come to consensus because 6 

### I don't know exactly what I'm compromising in 7 

### terms of magnitude the impact on the overall 8 

### fleet average of the country. 9 

### MR. ROY: Mike, this is Robin. 10 

### MR. LUBLINER: So I'd like to 11 

### (inaudible). 12 

### MR. ROY: I really, I agree with that. I 13 

### want the numbers to speak and inform all this. 14 

### I'm presupposing that we're going to see a fairly 15 

### wide split between what looks like it would be 16 

### cost effective from all owners perspective; 17 

### what's the difference between that over the life 18 

### of a home and what a first buyer chattel driven, 19 

### or not even able to get chattel, a buyer might be 20 

### looking at. And I think those are probably both 21 

### different from what somebody is looking at a 22173

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### utilities cost of funding might be able to do, 1 

### for example through an Energy Star program. 2 

### I suspect we'll see thousands of dollars 3 

### per floor difference across that spectrum. But 4 

### that may not be the case. I too, like you, look 5 

### forward to working through some of the actual 6 

### numbers. Otherwise it's an exercise in abstract. 7 

### MR. LUBLINER: I mean, can we -- this is 8 

### Mike Lubliner again, follow up. Can we get a 9 

### sense from the manufacturers as to this kind of 10 

### affordability group, the group that is going to 11 

### be better off with the less efficient home 12 

### because they can't buy the more efficient home, 13 

### are we talking about five percent of the market, 14 

### 50 percent of the market? Just some sort of a 15 

### sense of what we're talking about here would be 16 

### really useful to get feedback on before I could 17 

### embrace this as a good consensus approach. 18 

### MS. HOFFMAN: Okay, Lowell, you have a 19


### comment? 20 

### MR. UNGER: No, I didn't. Not of my 21 

### question, so if there are answers to that 22174

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### question. 1 

### MS. HOFFMAN: Okay. Lois. 2 

### MS. STARKEY: Would it be helpful if we 3 

### provided some annual household income of 4 

### manufactured home buyers, and I mean, that will 5 

### at least give you an idea? I've got something 6 

### from foremost here, you could put it -- if you 7 

### wanted to put it on the other side. 8 

### MR. LUBLINER: It would be helpful. We 9 

### would like to get your opinion on -- 10 

### MS. STARKEY: That will give me a 11 

### breakdown of what the percentage is of -- 12 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: Can you e-mail that to me? 13 

### MS. STARKEY: Percentages. I don't -- 14 

### not easily. I'm sorry. 15 

### MR. LUBLINER: So, Lois, does that 16 

### include the cash purchases as well, people that 17 

### buy these homes for cash, or people that buy the 18 

### chattel mortgages because they don't want to tie 19 

### up their land, not because they can't afford a 20 

### conventional mortgage? 21 

### MS. STARKEY: I can't answer that right 22175

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### now. And I think this data comes from the -- 1 

### MR. LUBLINER: Well, those are the kind 2 

### of issues -- 3 

### MS. STARKEY: -- Census Bureau, so I 4 

### think the answer is probably no, we can't. 5 

### MR. LUBLINER: Yeah. This is Mike 6 

### Lubliner again. Just to follow up. It seems to 7 

### me that you, industry, has the data. So it will 8 

### be going to the Census Bureau would be a recourse 9 

### because we're not able to get your data 10 

### specifically on when you loan, what percentage 11 

### time do you have to loan? What percentage of the 12 

### people buy cash? Or when you offer a chattel 13 

### mortgage, what percentage of those people are 14 

### purchasing that chattel mortgage because they 15 

### don't want to tie up their land as opposed to 16 

### they can't afford a conventional mortgage? Those 17 

### are critical issues and I don't want -- I think 18 

### it's useful to have some survey data, national 19 

### survey data, but what I'm looking for is 20 

### information from the manufacturers who have the 21 

### best information available. And I haven't gotten 22176

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### any specifics yet on those particular questions. 1 

### And I'd like to come to consensus. I 2 

### really would, but I need to hear that stuff. 3 

### Thank you. 4 

### MS. STARKEY: Well, we don't really. 5 

### It's hard. We don’t really. We rely on census 6 

### data for a lot of that information, for income 7 

### information. I mean, we know where homes go, but 8 

### we don’t really know, you know, how -- we know 9 

### where they go but we don't know exactly what 10 

### incomes they have. I mean, that's hard to get. 11 

### Again, lenders we've been -- data is a problem, I 12 

### must say. But we don't have that data, you know, 13 

### in a precise way. So we rely on census data. 14 

### MR. LUBLINER: Thanks, Lois. Mike 15 

### Lubliner. One last follow up and then I'll be 16 

### quiet. This is important; really critically 17 

### important. 18 

### I would suggest that you survey your 19 

### retailers to get that information. That's what 20 

### we're doing in the Northwest to manufactured 21 

### housing retailers. We're going out to the 22177

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### retailers and asking them, what percentage of the 1 

### people are buying cash, what percentage are 2 

### buying chattel, and of those buying chattel what 3 

### percentage of them are buying chattel because of 4 

### affordability, or separately for other issues 5 

### like I mentioned, they don't want to tie their 6 

### land up. That would be a constructive, very good 7 

### exercise, and I think that at least half your 8 

### industry, a good chunk of your industry is 9 

### vertically integrated. In other words, they have 10 

### lenders that they work very closely with that I 11 

### would think you could have that information at 12 

### hand. But maybe I'm naive on that. 13 

### MR. WEISS: Mark Weiss. Mike, going back 14 

### to your original question. If you look at the 15 

### NAHB study, that posits that a $1,000 price 16 

### increase excludes, what, 347 some thousand 17 

### prospective buyers from the market. That's what, 18 

### four times the size of the current annual 19 

### manufactured housing market. If you take $1,000 20 

### down to $100 assuming a linear type regression, 21 

### you're excluding what, 35,000. Virtually half 22178

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### the market just on $100,000. So that's a pretty 1 

### substantial impact and I think we need to go 2 

### through that analysis and see how that relates to 3 

### our situation. 4 

### MR. LUBLINER: Yeah, I agree, Mark. This 5 

### is Mike Lubliner. Follow up on that. I totally 6 

### agree with that. And I think we should use 7 

### correct price elasticity values. But I believe 8 

### the NHB data is for site build housing, not 9 

### manufactured. I believe the Meeks and the 10 

### Marshall work that was submitted would be more 11 

### appropriate for those price elasticities and I 12 

### would encourage us to discuss this in the context 13 

### of that. 14 

### But separate from that I do believe that 15 

### the industry could survey their retailers and 16 

### their lenders to get at least a ballpark sense of 17 

### the questions that I've asked. Thank you. I'm 18 

### going to stop on this one. 19 

### MR. WEISS: Yeah, just brief follow up on 20 

### the NAHB survey. My understanding of that is, is 21 

### that their figures were specific to manufactured 22179

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### housing. They did both single section and double 1 

### section. 2 

### MS. STARKEY: Yes, that's correct. And 3 

### they used, it's a standard economic analysis. 4 

### This is Lois at MHI. 5 

### So they actually -- that is a, you 6 

### know -- I think there's -- people can argue about 7 

### the validity of the whole study and the use of 8 

### the price elasticity of demand analysis, but they 9 

### did use HUD code shipment data to do that study. 10 

### MR. LUBLINER: So I'm hearing you're more 11 

### comfortable with the NAHB data than your own MHI 12 

### Meeks data. 13 

### MS. STARKEY: I think it's different. I 14 

### think we can make -- we'll try to get what you 15 

### want but I think you're going to come up with the 16 

### same kind of data you're getting from Census and 17 

### Foremost, and others. 18 

### MR. LUBLINER: Thank you, Lois. 19 

### MR. EZZO: Hey, Mike this is Mark Ezzo at 20 

### Clayton. And this is just a real simplistic 21 

### review or view of this thing from someone who 22180

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### doesn't have all the data. But just in thinking 1 

### of terms of what our plants build around the 2 

### country, I mean, typically we talk about it in 3 

### terms of it's either low-end, which is entry 4 

### level, you know it's pretty close to minimum HUD 5 

### code. There's the medium level, which is a 6 

### little bit step above that. And then there's a 7 

### higher end. 8 

### So of those three chunks, you know, I 9 

### can't tell you what percent we operate at each 10 

### one of those, but I would say the biggest 11 

### percentage is the lower end. And then secondly 12 

### would be the middle of the market with, I think, 13 

### the highest end product being the lowest. And 14 

### looking at the pie chart we're looking at here on 15 

### our screen, that looks fairly indicative of what 16 

### I understand our plants are doing today; where if 17 

### you look at the, you know, the 99.999 or less and 18 

### then the 10 to 20 and 20 to 30, and that 19 

### represent, gosh what, a big chunk of the market, 20 

### that sounds about right to me with the rest of 21 

### the numbers reflecting middle and higher end. 22181

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### I don't know if that does you any good, 1 

### but I can't -- I don't have (indiscernible). 2 

### MR. LUBLINER: Thanks, Mark. 3 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: Robin, could you talk a 4 

### little bit more about that Energy Star piece that 5 

### I think was your number three? 6 

### MR. ROY: Right. Well, Energy Star is 7 

### clearly now within the jurisdiction, even, of the 8 

### Department of Energy. I think that's an EPA set 9 

### standard. However, it is something of great 10 

### bearing on manufactured housing and manufactured 11 

### housing energy efficiency; energy efficiency 12


### programs. 13 

### I suspect many, most, if maybe all -- 14 

### maybe not, of the utility programs that try to 15 

### encourage higher efficiency manufactured housing 16 

### and new construction as opposed to retrofits, 17 

### reference Energy Star. I'm not sure that's the 18 

### case, but I would expect that it's the case. So 19 

### it's something which clearly it's of great 20 

### importance in a practical way to folks that want 21 

### to run good efficiency programs for new 22182

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### manufactured housing. So we should be mindful of 1 

### that. 2 

### We will have information that is relevant 3 

### to Energy Star. We shouldn't ignore it. We 4 

### should move that forward. I suspect what makes 5 

### sense for Energy Star is a very different level 6 

### of cost effectiveness than what makes sense for a 7 

### buyer, taking a mortgage or a chattel loan 8 

### because it's typically run by a government or a 9 

### utility program with a very different cost of 10 

### funds, very different mid and long-term 11 

### objective. I mean, they're talking about buying 12 

### energy efficiency, or buying new power plant, new 13 

### contract. Not something, you know, on the supply 14 

### side. 15 

### To put some parody there is useful. And 16 

### for us to provide that information to that Energy 17 

### Star process, and you know, sometimes the Energy 18 

### Star process and updating is not as fast as one 19 

### would hope it would be; as technology moves 20 

### along, as market conditions change. Here is 21 

### something which I would expect information is 22183

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### coming quickly through this process and markets 1 

### will also change with higher volumes of purchases 2 

### at higher end, higher efficiency that may change 3 

### some of the cost and cost effectiveness. 4 

### So that's why I want to tie it in and DOE 5 

### does have a lot of opportunity to work with other 6 

### agencies and the Federal Government. So I'd 7 

### implore them to find a way to bring this 8 

### information to bear. 9 

### MS. HOFFMAN: Thank you, by the way. I 10 

### think it's a fascinating idea, and one really to 11 

### think about and consider for this group, whether 12 

### it's today or next week. But I think it's an 13 

### intriguing approach to look at, and -- 14 

### MR. ROY: This is Robin. I have to 15


### say -- 16 

### MS. HOFFMAN: Yeah. 17 

### MR. ROY: -- when you say that it reminds 18 

### me of when one of my children, I won't say which, 19 

### was born, people said, "what a fascinating 20 

### looking child." 21 

### MS. HOFFMAN: I hadn't used that word 22184

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### now. But I think it's very -- it's worth really 1 

### great consideration. And I'm just asking the 2 

### group as to what do we want to do with it at this 3 

### point. We've got enough on our program to deal 4 

### with as well, but do we want to look at some of 5 

### the aspects of it? What I've been hearing is a 6 

### need for more data, you know, what is the 7 

### percentage of low income people who are buying 8 

### manufactured housing. How big or large is the 9 

### sector that would be the, for want of a better 10 

### word, the LOs as opposed to the FOs in this 11 

### instance. But can that be achieved? Can we get 12 

### that data? I would ask -- 13 

### MR. ROY: And this is Robin. I think 14 

### that's an interesting set of data we could choose 15 

### to pursue and it will help inform a decision at 16 

### some point. But we don't need to resolve that -- 17 

### MS. HOFFMAN: Uh-huh. 18 

### MR. ROY: -- before structuring some of 19 

### our thinking -- 20 

### MS. HOFFMAN: Uh-huh. 21 

### MR. ROY: -- along these lines. In fact 22185

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### we need to be going along these lines and doing 1 

### our analysis anyway. I'm suggesting a sensible 2 

### way to structure smart thinking. At the end when 3 

### we say, oh wow, in fact that conjectured that 4 

### there is a pretty big range of dollars per 5 

### section, we need some solution, we will have done 6 

### the work and we'll then say, well, to how many 7 

### people does this really apply. We don't have to 8 

### hold this in abeyance until that is resolved. 9 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: Lowell? 10 

### MR. UNGER: Thanks. I would also like to 11 

### thank Robin for a creative attempt to address 12 

### real concerns. I mean, my preference would 13 

### certainly be a single standard. We think all 14 

### people deserve to live in efficient homes. And 15 

### we'd be concerned about the precedent in terms 16 

### of, you know, in general for standards and other 17 

### things, that it works -- the system will in 18 

### general work better if there is a single standard 19 

### than to try to segment the market too much and 20 

### create many different standards. 21 

### That said, if this is a way of addressing 22186

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### the concerns, I certainly think it's something we 1 

### should consider. We'd be very interested in this 2 

### question of how -- what would the market share 3 

### be, because obviously among other things it 4 

### relates to what are the energy losses that will 5 

### happen because we have this product type that's 6 

### less efficient. 7 

### One other point of information that may 8 

### be useful on that is if we're going to use the 9 

### window to wall or window to floor, you alternated 10 

### which one you're talking about, but if we're 11 

### going to use a window ratio it might be useful to 12 

### know what the market looks like in terms of 13 

### different window ratios. Obviously that could 14 

### change but at least that would be a starting 15 

### point as to where it is now. 16 

### A couple other specific comments, one is 17 

### I recognize Joe's concern about putting caps on 18 

### production. Another approach to that might be, 19 

### which has been used elsewhere, to put an overall 20 

### threshold that if more than a certain portion of 21 

### the homes are in the limited option category, 22187

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### that that would automatically trigger a review of 1 

### the standard to look whether the standard is 2 

### appropriate or its done something, which was not 3 

### what was intended and needs to be changed. So 4 

### that might be another way of addressing that 5 

### issue. 6 

### I think we would be very concerned about 7 

### basing any standard on worst case assumptions. 8 

### You know, they should be based on the best 9 

### assumptions we can find. That said, if there are 10 

### different -- if we believe different people are 11 

### going to be purchasing these homes then it might 12 

### make sense to base it on the, you know, financing 13 

### or other characteristics on who is purchasing 14 

### those homes rather than some other fictional, you 15 

### know, market. So I'm able to get that data. I 16 

### don't think I would call it worst case. 17 

### MR. ROY: That's just what we called it 18 

### (inaudible). 19 

### MR. UNGER: And in that sense also, of 20 

### course, that might then shift who is buying the 21 

### other full option, in which case that should be 22188

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### then rereflected (sic) and the assumptions made 1 

### for the full option. 2 

### One other thing I'll just note is I 3 

### believe that IECC includes a requirement for 4 

### energy label. I don't believe that label does 5 

### include the energy cost, which as Robin pointed 6 

### out, might be a very useful thing. But the label 7 

### in question, at least, I think may come into play 8 

### just because that would be an IECC requirement 9 

### under normal circumstances, and you know, and 10 

### perhaps for manufactured homes, the exact kind of 11 

### label would make some -- would be different than 12 

### it is under IECC. Thanks. 13 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: That gave some additional 14 

### structure of some of the things to consider if we 15 

### are to go down this path. And if I understand 16 

### the group correctly there is some value in 17 

### heading down here, at least for now, and then we 18 

### decide later on whether we actually do it or not. 19 

### What other information and who is going to gather 20 

### it, do we need in order to move forward? 21 

### Even just what Lowell had mentioned, the 22189

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### different window ratios, if there was a 1 

### percentage of sales. I don't know if there's any 2 

### information that we could gather on that piece. 3 

### If there is a percentage of sales and then that 4 

### would trigger a review on the reasons. 5 

### Based on income levels, if we were to do 6 

### something like that we would have to know the 7 

### legality of that and then we also have the data 8 

### on that already. That was just supplied by Lois. 9 

### At least ballpark data on that. And then the 10 

### energy labeling. 11 

### But what other items do we need in order 12 

### to move forward? 13 

### MR. DENNIS: This is Keith Dennis. I 14 

### think that before we go down this road, or I 15 

### think one of the first questions to answer would 16 

### be, how do we just make sure that the upper -- 17 

### the full option is not just a voluntary standard? 18 

### And I think that there is an attempt here for a 19 

### production limit. And it sounds like there's 20 

### going to be people opposed to that for reasons 21 

### like 100 percent of one manufacturer might be low 22190

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### end, and it might be worth making sure that there 1 

### is a practical way to differentiate the products 2 

### in the legal way so that it's just not a low 3 

### efficiency and a high efficiency. One ends up 4 

### being kind of a voluntary -- maybe something like 5 

### what Lowell said, where there's a relook, if 6 

### there's a certain market share that's 7 

### inappropriate. 8 

### Window to wall area ratio, I think that 9 

### that's interesting because it seems like it says 10 

### if somebody wants, you know, more windows, 11 

### they're more likely to be able to afford the full 12 

### option. But at the same time you say if you 13 

### can't afford, you know -- if you're in a low14 

### income then you can only have a certain amount of 15 

### windows. Might be a little bit awkward. But in 16 

### general it's an interesting concept. And again, 17 

### I think the tradeoff without the data is, could 18 

### we get a higher lower standard through 19 

### negotiation and have, you know, push everyone up 20 

### a little bit and still have people voluntarily 21 

### going higher, or are we getting a better bang for 22191

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### our buck with allowing some kind of what seems 1 

### like an exception for lower when it's an 2 

### affordability issue, and then kind of have a 3 

### standard be higher. 4 

### So, the mechanism of what we're trying to 5 

### do here is important and I just think it's 6 

### important that that kind of -- we can spend the 7 

### time on it but it might be important to kind of 8 

### get that nailed down, how that really works 9 

### before we make two standards and assume at the 10 

### end we cal all agree on -- I think what's going 11 

### to probably be the contentious piece of it, which 12 

### is how is the lower one limited and how is the 13 

### top one not just a voluntary -- become not just a 14 

### de facto voluntary standard? 15 

### MR. ROY: Well, my thinking was that the 16 

### window -- and it should be floor, not wall. I 17 

### apologize. The window floor ratio, need to think 18 

### more from the manufacturer do they think that 19 

### would work. But I suspect that would not be a 20 

### bad product type definition, or something to base 21 

### product type definition on, because it relates 22192

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### pretty clearly to amenity as well as to cost. 1 

### Right? Folks aren't going in that direction for 2 

### lower windows, except to save money. People like 3 

### more windows. I think it's generally the case. 4 

### May not be 100 percent, but my understanding is 5 

### that that's generally the case. 6 

### So it seems to be this fortunate 7 

### confluence. It relates to cost, it relates to 8 

### amenity, and actually interestingly enough, 9 

### windows relate to energy. It's the part where a 10 

### lot of energy flows if you have a lot of windows. 11 

### But maybe we can't find the -- 12 

### MR. LUBLINER: This is Mike Lubliner. 13 

### MR. ROY: -- decent one, and we do have a 14 

### minimum window size for egress purposes. I 15 

### suspect most of the homes sold are not at that 16 

### minimum size, but a fair number are, and I 17 

### suspect there may be a few more at that minimum 18 

### size if such an approach is taken. 19 

### Again, I don't think it would take that 20 

### much more analysis to proceed along this path 21 

### then we're already having to do. We've already 22193

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### undertaken to do. This is just a framework for 1 

### thinking how we might use it. 2 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: Michael. 3 

### MR. LUBLINER: Yes. So in terms of the 4 

### window area, my experience with the Northwest 5 

### factory production, you know, up to 20 6 

### manufacturers building up here, 10 to 20, over 7 

### the years -- and again, we're building as 8 

### everybody has noted, the upper, middle to higher 9 

### end product. Only less than 10 percent of our 10 

### homes are single section homes in the region. 11 

### But the average is less than 11 percent window to 12 

### floor area. So I'm comfortable coming up with a 13 

### metric for that, but I don't think that 11 14 

### percent would be the right number. 15 

### And I guess my question would be, is does 16 

### the manufactured housing industry from their 17 

### (indiscernible) approved plan, track percent 18 

### blazing as a function of floor area, and could 19 

### that information be shared in a way that would 20 

### help inform this discussion on affordability. 21 

### MR. SANTANA: Manny with CAVCO. I can 22194

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### only speak for our plant, but we don't track 1 

### anything on the basis of percentage of window 2



### area. 3 

### MR. WEISS: Mark Weiss, MHAR. Just to 4 

### bring some perspective to this based on specific 5 

### numbers. If you go to the American Housing 6 

### Survey 2011, they do have a calculation of the 7 

### purchase price in 10, $20,000 increments. In any 8 

### event, increments starting at less than $10,000 9 

### all the way up to $300,000 or more, comparing 10 

### both site build homes and manufactured homes. 11 

### And if you look at that the median purchase price 12 

### for a manufactured home is $30,000. And the vast 13 

### bulk of the demand -- actually, the single 14 

### highest number on the entire chart on the 15 

### manufactured side is for a purchase price less 16 

### than $10,000. So that's what you're dealing 17 

### with. 18 

### You know, the vast bulk of the demand is 19 

### at the lower end of the market. 20 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: And that's new 21 

### construction? 22195

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### MR. WEISS: New construction. 1 

### MR. LUBLINER: Do we know the glazing 2 

### area, Mark? Mike Lubliner. Of those homes, the 3 

### affordable homes? 4 

### MR. WEISS: I don't know if that type of 5 

### information is in the AHS. I certainly don't 6 

### have it. I don't think it is. 7 

### MR. LUBLINER: That's the kind of 8 

### specifics that it will be useful to move this 9 

### discussion along. Thank you. 10 

### MS. STARKEY: This is Lois. Rick here is 11 

### reminding me that the HUD code requires a minimum 12 

### eight percent window glaze area. 13 

### MR. ROY: Window floor area? 14 

### MS. STARKEY: Window floor, excuse me. 15 

### MR. LUBLINER: We typically see entry 16 

### level homes less than 10 percent. 17 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: That would be consistent 18 

### with the HUD minimum. 19 

### UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Who was that? Who 20 

### was that? 21 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: I think that was -- 22196

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### Michael, was that you? 1 

### UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: I think it was 2 

### Lubliner. 3 

### MR. LUBLINER: Yes, it was. I'm sorry. 4 

### MR. LEVY: This is Emanuel. First of 5 

### all, this is a very good conversation and I want 6 

### to acknowledge again, Robin, for keeping the pot 7 

### stirred and bringing up some interesting ideas 8 

### over what could have been very dismissive issues. 9 

### And this is an interesting and creative way to 10 

### approach it. I think that we're talking to two 11 

### different possible ways to bifurcate the 12 

### standard. One is to set a set of physical 13 

### constraints on what the home looks like, and the 14 

### other is to perhaps qualify the buyer for that 15 

### lower end home. Maybe on FICO score or something 16 

### like that. 17 

### So, I mean, this is obviously something 18 

### that engenders a lot of considerations and needs 19 

### a lot more thought than perhaps we can put into 20 

### this conversation. And maybe there should be a 21 

### committee as Javier suggested earlier. But I 22197

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### would strongly suggest that we think about how 1 

### the customer qualifies for this and what the 2 

### physical constraints would be on the home that 3 

### that buyer qualifies for. And importantly, what 4 

### the implication is in terms of demonstrating 5 

### compliance. How would this actually work in the 6 

### market place and what kind of constraints would 7 

### this pose for manufacturers demonstrating 8 

### compliance for those homes? 9 

### MR. WEISS: Mark Weiss. I hear what 10 

### you're saying and I would really start -- hate to 11 

### start getting into a situation where we're 12 

### essentially profiling buyers or discriminating 13 

### against certain buyers and effectively telling 14 

### people what they can buy and how much they can 15 

### spend. It just smacks too much of discrimination 16 

### I think, to work. 17 

### MS. HOFFMAN: But there is an idea about 18 

### flushing this out a little more, having perhaps a 19 

### dedicated group to work with Robin a little 20 

### further. I think is there an interest in doing 21 

### that, and can we -- excuse me. I've said 22198

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### fascinating. I didn't, but I thought it. Okay. 1 

### But I think we want to flush it out and Lois, I 2 

### saw you nodding. Are you -- 3 

### MS. STARKEY: I think that's sort of the 4 

### question now. 5 

### MS. HOFFMAN: Uh-huh. 6 

### MS. STARKEY: I think definitely we 7 

### should get a committee together. 8 

### MS. HOFFMAN: Yeah. So I'm nominating 9 

### Robin on it, and Stacy. 10


### MS. EPPERSON: Yes. 11 

### MS. HOFFMAN: Lois. Anyone else? Mark? 12 

### Anyone at home here? 13 

### MR. HAGERMAN: So is that just the 14 

### finance committee? Joe Hagerman again. Finance 15 

### committee? 16 

### MS. HOFFMAN: Is it? 17 

### MR. HAGERMAN: It's the same -- 18 

### MS. HOFFMAN: Well, is there anyone else 19 

### who hasn't stepped up to the plate, as it were? 20 

### Oh, Lowell. 21 

### MR. UNGER: I can join it as well. 22199

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### MS. HOFFMAN: Okay. Lowell. 1 

### MR. UNGER: Either. 2 

### MS. HOFFMAN: Okay. Good. Good. Thank 3 

### you. Now -- 4 

### UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: They just want 5 

### efficiency voice on it so I'm glad to hear it. 6 

### MS. HOFFMAN: Yeah. Thank you. 7 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: Well, you know what? Let 8 

### me get the names of the folks because on the 9 

### finance Stacy is the lead on that one, which if 10 

### we were -- what we would call the affordability 11 

### subcommittee, that would be Robin as the lead. 12 

### But on the finance subcommittee we had Stacy, 13 

### Robin, Mark Ezzo, Ishbel, and Lois. So this 14 

### group does sound like it's going to be a 15 

### little -- 16 

### MS. HOFFMAN: Mark Weiss. 17 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: I'm sorry, Mark Weiss. 18 

### MS. HOFFMAN: Okay. So, but for this 19 

### committee it would be Robin as the Chair and 20 

### Stacy, Lois, Lowell, and Mark. And any other -- 21 

### anyone else who would like to -- 22200

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### MS. STARKEY: I just -- 1 

### MS. DICKENS: This is Ishbel. I'd be a 2 

### part of it. 3 

### UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: I didn't hear 4 

### that. So Ishbel. I didn't hear what she said. 5 

### MS. HOFFMAN: Oh, Ishbel, you want to be 6 

### on this committee? 7 

### MS. DICKENS: Yeah, I would. Thank you. 8 

### MS. HOFFMAN: Okay. Yes. I'm sorry, 9 

### Lois, you -- okay. So we -- 10 

### MR. ROY: (Inaudible.) 11 

### UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: No, that does not 12 

### deserve a mic. 13 

### MS. HOFFMAN: Oh, it doesn't deserve a 14 

### mic, but Robin is going to have refreshments for 15 

### that committee. 16 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: This evening. 17 

### MS. HOFFMAN: Right. And not now; this 18 

### evening. 19 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: You know what? Let me hit 20 

### on that one just a little bit more because I want 21 

### to try and see if I could really exploit this 22201

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### group, right? In the sense of, if you're going 1 

### to be working as a subcommittee, there were a few 2 

### questions that were raised on things that would 3 

### be beneficial in order for the group to hear and 4 

### review. But what about also giving it some 5 

### structure in the sense of, if we were to go down 6 

### this road can this group also put together a 7 

### straw man of what that would look like, with the 8 

### LO and the -- what was the other one? FO. Is 9 

### that something that the subcommittee would be 10 

### willing to undertake? 11 

### The reason I say that is it seems like 12 

### there is far more benefit and the ability to 13 

### really dig in if we are looking at actual numbers 14 

### versus concepts. I don't want us to spin our 15 

### wheels with concepts. 16 

### MS. HOFFMAN: I'm seeing a few -- Eileen 17 

### Hoffman. I'm seeing a few nods from the people 18 

### who volunteered for the committee. Can we assume 19 

### that's a yes? 20 

### MR. ROY: I'm not saying no. 21 

### MS. HOFFMAN: Oh, okay. Good. Well, 22202

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### it's not a no, so we'll go with that. Okay. Did 1 

### you -- and after the meeting we'll go over the 2 

### questions too. 3 

### Now I think we might want to move to the 4 

### next part of the program, which is some of the 5 

### reports of the various committees, so Stacy 6 

### Epperson on finance. 7 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: Could I suggest a one 8 

### function break before we -- 9


### MS. HOFFMAN: Sure. 10 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: -- roll into that? Okay. 11 

### Thank you. 12 

### (Recess from 2:02 p.m. until 2:15 p.m.) 13 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: Okay. You want to start 14 

### pulling it back together? 15 

### Okay. So, let's go ahead and start off 16 

### with Stacy, with the finance. 17 

### MS. EPPERSON: Okay. Thank you. Stacy 18 

### Epperson of the finance subcommittee. First of 19 

### all, thanks to MHI for helping pull so much of 20 

### the data by talking to the lenders. 21 

### Today we're going to be presenting loan 22203

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### data for both chattel or personal property loans 1 

### sometimes called home only loans, versus real 2 

### property or mortgages. So we'll start with the 3 

### chattel. 4 

### You can see that the interest rate range 5 

### on this is today, 6.3 to 9.5 percent, with a loan 6 

### term that ranges somewhere between 12 and 20 7 

### years, down payment between 12 and 18 percent, 8 

### points and fees, one to two percent, no private 9 

### mortgage insurance on these type of loans. We're 10 

### not -- you're not going to have property tax, 11 

### generally, with these because you're not securing 12 

### the land you may have. Not on land, but on the 13 

### home you may have tax. Sales tax, you will have 14 

### that in most states too. And we are referencing 15 

### a chart that takes you to another spreadsheet of 16 

### tax rates across the country provided by the tax 17 

### foundation. 18 

### So, I think it's important to note that 19 

### the 2013 numbers source U.S. Census that 78 20 

### percent of homes are financed with chattel 21 

### personal property. 22204

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### So let me just pause here. Any questions 1 

### on chattel, or additions from the committee? 2 

### MS. STARKEY: Yes, Stacy, when you sent 3 

### the chart around on sales tax I did a little 4 

### checking and maybe I can get some more details, 5 

### but every state, almost every state, has some 6 

### state statute that takes that sales tax and does 7 

### something with it with respect to their home. So 8 

### it may not be the sales tax as this chart shows, 9 

### but at least this provides a base. But then most 10 

### ever state has something usually less, as I 11 

### understand it, than the sales tax. 12 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: You mean like a credit or 13


### some sort? 14 

### MS. STARKEY: Yeah, like a percentage of 15 

### the invoice or some something that isn't exactly 16 

### what the sales tax on personal property is. 17 

### MS. EPPERSON: Thank you, Lois. 18 

### MR. LEVY: Stacy, Emanuel. That's a 19 

### pretty big range in terms of interest rate. Can 20 

### you suggest what the range is about? 21 

### MS. EPPERSON: Yes. So typically what we 22205

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### fund in this type of finance is risk base lending 1 

### based on credit score can affect that rate, and 2 

### it would be my opinion that's really what's 3 

### driving this here. But I'll defer to see, Lois, 4 

### anything else you want to add? Or Mark? 5 

### MS. STARKEY: Yes. I think so and I 6 

### think it's probably credit score and then just 7 

### what the other market rates are. You know, what 8 

### the market in general is doing and how that and 9 

### the interest rates just like on real property, 10 

### that changes based on treasury rates, et cetera, 11 

### et cetera. So there are other factors that the 12 

### lenders use to set that rate as well. 13 

### MS. EPPERSON: Yeah, they're cost of 14 

### funds, absolutely. 15 

### MS. STARKEY: Yeah, cost of funds. 16 

### That's a good -- that's what I meant to say. 17 

### MR. WEISS: Do we know over what time 18 

### period these figures are for? Last year, last 19 

### two years, that sort of -- 20 

### MS. STARKEY: I think they were this 21 

### year. I would say 2013, 2014; within the last 22206

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### year. 1 

### MR. UNGER: This is Lowell. I just note 2 

### not that, you haven't gotten to the real property 3 

### but the interest rate range is much wider on 4 

### chattel and for real property. So, okay. So 5 

### it's not -- it must be some other factor going on 6 

### than regular mortgages. 7 

### MR. WEISS: Well, sure, because you're 8 

### not relying on the land as well as security for 9 

### the loan so it's much more risk based. 10 

### MS. EPPERSON: Uh-huh. It's risk base 11 

### lending. Yes, absolutely. Okay. Okay. Then I 12 

### think that's my cue to move to real property 13 

### mortgage where the interest rate range, you can 14 

### see it's a much more narrow range here of, you 15 

### know -- I'll let you look at these numbers. 16 

### Basically 3.9 to 4.3. You typically have a 17 

### longer loan term option. Here we have 15 to 30 18 

### years. Down payment requirements, 10 to 20 19 

### percent for a more conventional type finance. 20 

### But 3.5 percent for FHA which would be -- of 21 

### course carries that government guarantee. 22207

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### Points and fees, again, same, 1.1 to 2 1 

### percent. Private mortgage insurance, you are 2 

### going to have that with conventional, you know, 3 

### .5 to one percent. And then for less than a 90 4 

### loan to value you're going to also have 120 to 5 

### 125 basis points, and then we've provided 6 

### information, of course, on taxes. So let me 7 

### pause here and see if there are questions. 8 

### MR. UNGER: Lowell again. Any idea how 9 

### many homes are bought without a loan? 10 

### MS. EPPERSON: We don't have that data 11 

### yet. 12 

### MR. WEISS: Without a loan at all? 13 

### MR. UNGER: Yeah. 14 

### MS. EPPERSON: Yeah. Straight cash. 15 

### Case buyers. 16 

### MR. SANTANA: This is Manny -- 17 

### UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: How about an 18 

### estimate? 19 

### MR. SANTANA: Do you have any idea of 20 

### what percentage is in the 12 year average and 21 

### which one is in the 20 year, or which one is in 22208

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### the -- you know, how much is in the 30? Or is it 1 

### just pretty much even? 2 

### MS. EPPERSON: No, that's a range that 3 

### the lenders gave us. I think it depends on, you 4 

### know, the individual lender. We're not talking 5 

### about -- if we wanted to just go when we do our 6 

### assumptions with an FHA mortgage then, you know, 7 

### we could go with that. I don't think it makes 8 

### much difference in terms of -- I think we'd have 9 

### to do either an average or have a couple of 10 

### different scenarios for different long terms, 11 

### which is not hard to do. 12 

### But they'll be all over the board. It 13 

### depends on what the individual home buyer wants 14 

### to do or can do, just like in the conventional 15 

### market. You can do a seven year loan or a 10 16 

### year loan, or a -- you know, it's what makes 17 

### sense for the lender and what makes sense for the 18 

### homeowner, and what, you know which is 19 

### financially feasible. 20 

### MR. LUBLINER: Lois, Mike Lubliner. I'm 21 

### just wondering, is it possible to survey your 22209

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### major retailers around the country to get an idea 1 

### on the percentage that pay cash? That's a pretty 2 

### high percentage in certain areas but a very low 3 

### percentage in other. But I'm just wondering if 4 

### we don't have that variable it's hard for us to 5 

### figure out how that plays into the overall 6 

### equation. We are focusing significantly on 7 

### trying to get the affordability numbers, and I'm 8 

### just wondering, how many people just go out and 9 

### buy cash -- pay cash for these. And they may not 10 

### be impacted by some of the affordability issues. 11 

### So I would encourage whoever could, on 12 

### the committee or DOE, to try to investigate 13 

### further the cash procurement and see whether it's 14 

### an issue. If it's not I'd be happy to shut up on 15 

### it. 16 

### MS. STARKEY: We can look at -- the 17 

### annual housing survey digs down into some finance 18 

### issues and we can take a look at that. So if 19 

### you're sitting at your computer and you want to 20 

### get into the AHS and get into that financial data 21 

### right now. But otherwise we can get into that. 22210

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### We can also -- I'll shoot an e-mail to my 1 

### colleague who deals with the lenders on a daily 2 

### basis and see what we can do. We'll be glad to 3 

### try our best. 4 

### MR. LUBLINER: Thank you, Lois. 5 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: Mark? 6 

### MR. WEISS: Mark. Mark Weiss. Just one 7 

### brief comment. 8 

### Just because you're paying cash doesn't 9 

### necessarily mean that affordability is not an 10 

### issue. It might be more of an issue because you 11 

### might not have a lot of cash. 12 

### MR. EZZO: As does -- 13 

### MR. LUBLINER: Mark, that's right. As 14 

### does chattel doesn't necessarily mean that 15 

### affordability is an issue as well. 16 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: And that was Emanuel? 17 

### MS. EPPERSON: I think it was Mike 18 

### Lubliner. 19 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: Oh. 20 

### MS. EPPERSON: Okay. 21 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: Any other questions? 22211

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### MS. EPPERSON: Okay. I think that 1 

### concludes our report, unless you have additional 2 

### questions of us. We'll investigate the cash as 3 

### best that we can. 4 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: Okay. Was there anything 5 

### on the other documents that you needed to review, 6 

### or was that somewhat rolled in there? 7 

### MS. EPPERSON: It was rolled in there. 8 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: Okay. 9 

### MS. EPPERSON: You have two more 10 

### documents. One dealing with tax rates from the 11 

### tax foundation. One side's property tax for 12 

### those in the room. The other side, you know, 13 

### your sales tax. The last document is just 14 

### straight from the Census giving us the history 15 

### from 2007 to 2013. You can look at the bottom of 16 

### the chart in terms of new manufactured homes 17 

### placed. It's going to give you those located in 18 

### communities on private property, and then again 19 

### how they're titled. 20 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: All right. Then if that's 21 

### it then let's -- David, you want to give us a 22212

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### quick update on where you're at? I understand 1 

### that you need additional information, but could 2 

### you just give us a brief update? 3 

### MR. TOMPOS: You hear me? 4 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: Yeah. 5 

### MR. TOMPOS: All right. Dave Tompos. 6 

### Right now I do need some more time. A lot of 7 

### these issues depend on some of the cost 8 

### information as well as where we're going to end 9 

### up on UO values. I do have a document that was 10 

### given to me by Lois that I can send to the 11 

### committee that gives you some information on 12 

### shipping limitations. And I can use those -- I'm 13 

### trying to figure out, or asking the question of 14 

### the committee, what they're going to find useful. 15 

### Right now I'm working on a cross-section 16 

### that would show that small house, and then I'm 17 

### going to try to calculate a maximum U value that 18 

### we can get in the rough cavity without going over 19 

### that 13 foot six limit. 20 

### And what the committee has to understand 21 

### is a lot of these production or size limitations, 22213

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### other than the height that I'm seeing in some 1 

### areas, and you would see that based on this 2 

### report, these aren't hard limits. Everything can 3 

### be overcome by paying more money. 4 

### One of the things that I identified is, 5 

### you know, if we get over that 13 foot six inch 6 

### width, in some states we have to use an 7 

### additional escort. I don't have any way of 8 

### coming up with a price for that additional 9 

### escort. Is there a way that -- or anybody on the 10 

### call that can get that information? 11 

### Other than that I need about a week to 12 

### get some of these -- the small house and the 13 

### calculations done. I do have my guys working on 14 

### that right now. 15 

### MR. EZZO: Dave, this is Mark Ezzo. Just 16 

### let me know and I can try and get you information 17


### on escort costs. 18 

### MR. TOMPOS: Yeah, if you could provide 19 

### that it would be great, Mark. And I'll send this 20 

### document on some of the transportation limits out 21 

### to the committee. Or out to Javier. 22214

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### I think some of the things that were 1 

### being brought up by the costing information, some 2 

### of the information that I brought up are probably 3 

### going to be revealed in that information as far 4 

### as, you know, I brought up several times going to 5 

### two by eight floor framing. I think a lot of 6 

### that information is going to get put into the 7 

### costing information, so it should get addressed 8 

### when that information becomes available. 9 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: Okay. Any questions or 10


### comments? 11


### MR. LUBLINER: Dave? 12 

### MR. TOMPOS: Yeah. 13 

### MR. LUBLINER: This is Mike Lubliner. As 14 

### I work on the trial standards that our 15 

### subcommittee is working on it would be useful to 16 

### have a sense of, let's start with the ceiling 17 

### insulation. When you have this low truss 18 

### limitation that you speak of because of height 19 

### restrictions, it would be interesting to have an 20 

### idea of how much of that loose fill ceiling 21 

### insulation is being displaced if we went to a 22215

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### compression, it is as is proposal that we 1 

### discussed on our committee and with the group? 2 

### Likewise, I'm wondering in terms of the 3 

### width of the home, if you could elaborate on what 4 

### the implications there. Is it just two by six to 5 

### two by four, or are we talking about other things 6 

### that might impact the width restriction? You 7 

### could handle each of those and we can go offline 8 

### and talk about those separately if they're too 9 

### technical. Thank you. 10 

### MR. TOMPOS: I can address the width 11 

### restriction. It's not necessarily a restriction. 12 

### I mean, we can get around all of these things by, 13 

### like I said, paying for another escort. Or if 14 

### energy efficiency is more important to the 15 

### homeowner than square footage, you know, we can 16 

### use two by sixes instead of two by fours and make 17 

### a smaller house for the homeowner. 18 

### None of these are really hard limits 19 

### other than from this article or study that I'll 20 

### send out. There is a height limit in some 21 

### portions of Connecticut and I think in one of our 22216

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### last meetings the gentleman from Vermont 1 

### mentioned that they also have a 13 foot six inch 2 

### height limitation. However, he could help me if 3 

### he -- he mentioned that there are manufacturers 4 

### putting in R60 in roof cavity. I don't know how 5 

### to do that and maybe if the gentleman from 6 

### Vermont could share that information that would 7 

### solve all our problems. 8 

### MR. LUBLINER: Dave, it's Mike Lubliner 9 

### again. I'd just like to focus on my two 10 

### questions. Will we be able to get some -- how 11 

### many bags of insulation are we losing if we go 12 

### with the tapering in the ceiling. That's my 13 

### specific question. 14 

### The second one has to do with the width 15 

### of the home when you go from two by four to two 16 

### by six. We've seen that happen as a transform of 17 

### the industry out here. Twenty years ago, two 18 

### ways it was done. One way is they counter19 

### labored the two by six so they're the same floor 20 

### plan, and they didn't lose any square footage. 21 

### But then they did add a little bit more on the 22217

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### width to the home. And that's what I'm trying to 1 

### get a better understanding on is, is the adding 2 

### of a -- if you counter-labor the wall out, if 3 

### that's a possibility, is that the issue you're 4 

### talking about? I'm trying again to understand 5 

### what are we doing that's restricting the width 6 

### with the measures that we're looking at here? 7 

### MR. TOMPOS: I don't think we're 8 

### restricting the width. I'm just saying that 9 

### there's an additional cost associated with an 10 

### additional escort in some states of the country. 11 

### MR. LUBLINER: So why would we need the 12 

### escort if we're not restricting the width. 13 

### MR. TOMPOS: There's state laws that say 14 

### if you are over 13 foot six inches in width you 15 

### have to have two escorts instead of one. 16 

### MR. LUBLINER: Okay. This is Mike 17 

### Lubliner and I don't want to go cycling with you 18 

### here. So I fully understand that. I can give 19 

### you the cost of what Washington State estimates 20 

### for an extra. 21 

### What I'm wondering is, is when does that 22218

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### actually happen? What causes that to happen? Is 1 

### that that you are counter-laboring or you're 2 

### building the home wider? And how much wider are 3 

### we talking about in that we're going from a two 4 

### by four to a two by six? Is that the only width 5 

### issues we're talking about here? 6 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: Lois, did you want to add 7 

### something? 8 

### MS. STARKEY: (Shakes her head no.) 9 

### MR. TOMPOS: I only caught a small part 10 

### about that, and that was -- this is Dave Tompos. 11 

### I have a terrible echo and can't understand what 12 

### you're saying, Mike. 13 

### All I'm trying to do is make sure that we 14 

### accounted for some of the issues if we do have to 15 

### increase the width of the home. 16 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: All right. Let me say -- 17 

### MR. TOMPOS: There's ways around it and 18 

### ways to do it. 19 

### MS. STARKEY: I will say something. 20 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: Michael, let me suggest 21 

### that you talk to David and see if you two can't 22219

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### figure out where the disconnect is and do that 1 

### offline, and if there's anything that comes out 2 

### that -- 3 

### MR. LUBLINER: Yes. Thank you. 4 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: -- that you think would 5 

### benefit the full group then we could bring it 6 

### back at the next meeting. Is that all right, 7 

### Michael? 8 

### MR. LUBLINER: That's fine. 9 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: Okay. Thanks. And that's 10 

### more for clarity because Dave is having a hard 11 

### time hearing you. Lois? 12 

### MS. STARKEY: Yeah, the only -- I think 13 

### that this is an issue of we try to get as much 14 

### interior space that's usable by the consumer, the 15 

### homeowner, that takes into consideration the 16 

### particularly stringent restrictions that we have 17 

### from state highway departments, in particularly 18 

### the Northeast. So I think this is the issue; one 19 

### of the issues. We really try to maximum the 20 

### interior space as much as possible. 21 

### MR. LUBLINER: Thank you, Lois. So to 22220

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### clarify, we're talking about this additional 1 

### width. Is it only going from the two by six to 2 

### the two by four to the two by six? Or are there 3 

### other factors that I don't understand? 4 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: Yes, and that's the 5 

### discussion that you could have with David 6 

### offline. Okay. 7 

### MR. LUBLINER: Yes, or perhaps some of 8 

### the other manufacturers could provide some input. 9 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: Any other manufacturer 10 

### want to jump in or -- 11 

### MR. EZZO: It's Mark at Clayton. I don't 12 

### know that there's anything that we're talking 13 

### about that increases the width other than a six 14 

### inch wall. 15 

### MR. LUBLINER: Thank you very much, Mark. 16 

### I don't know that we'll need to have that call 17 

### with Dave. 18 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: Okay. David is receptive 19 

### of you would give him a call if need be. 20 

### Okay. Lois, did you have something else 21 

### or -- okay. All right. Michael, did you want to 22221

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### add anything as far as your trial standard 1 

### levels? 2 

### MR. LUBLINER: Yeah, I'll just give an 3 

### update. We haven't had any subcommittee 4 

### meetings. We're kind of -- I'm hoping that we're 5 

### going to get some cost data so we can take these 6 

### straw man, take the simple stupid path that I 7 

### proposed, and cost it out. And then possibly use 8 

### the spreadsheet that's been shared to evaluate 9 

### it. 10 

### I wasn't certainly trying to -- and I 11 

### think we made some inquiries to try to coordinate 12 

### a go-to meeting using DOE support staff here to 13 

### coordinate with the committee. And I did send 14 

### out a first cut to those people on the committee 15 

### of kind of a (indiscernible) of energy efficiency 16 

### measures that may go well beyond where we're 17 

### going with this rulemaking, but could be part of 18 

### an Energy Star program or what. And the purpose 19 

### there is to just make sure that everything, all 20 

### the measures that we think might be applicable 21 

### for an analysis, get vetted through the 22222

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### committee. I'm not proposing that all the things 1 

### that we pour dumped, these would be e-pump water 2 

### heaters, energy efficient appliances, lighting, 3 

### other things that I've noted on other calls, that 4 

### they're going to make it into this analysis. 5 

### But we wanted to come up with a list that 6 

### was inclusive and then we would go ahead with the 7 

### committee members and decide, put them into three 8 

### categories. One, they don't meet the left test. 9 

### In other words they're not technically feasible 10 

### to construct. They may be expensive, but that's 11 

### not the key. The key is that they're not 12 

### technically feasible. 13 

### The second one is, you know, they're good 14 

### candidates for beyond like Energy Star programs 15 

### that voluntary in nature. 16 

### And the third would be, yes, these are 17 

### measures that should be looked at by the PNNL 18 

### analysis. 19 

### So I'm hoping that we'll be able to 20 

### convene a group rather shortly and work on that 21 

### and have some information for the next meeting. 22223

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### Thank you. 1 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: Okay. Any questions for 2 

### Michael? 3 

### MR. UNGER: This is Lowell. I have one 4 

### question. I don't think it's for Michael but it 5 

### is related. 6 

### If I understood PNNL, in one set of their 7 

### runs did four scenarios that were related to 8 

### Michael's straw men, I just wanted to confirm 9 

### that and also check how they're doing that in 10 

### particular in this question of the insulation and 11 

### the roof where Michael had up to R49 but tapering 12 

### down, and the PNNL run said it was R49 insulation 13 

### in the roof. But I'm not sure -- it wasn't clear 14 

### to me whether PNNL had tapered it following what 15 

### Michael was talking about, or they were modeling 16 

### something else. So I'm just trying to get 17 

### whether in fact those runs are the same as the -- 18 

### MR. HAGERMAN: Consistent. So this is 19 

### Joe Hagerman, DOE. We circulated a document, I 20 

### think right after last week's meeting, on what 21 

### PNNL did to build those models. And so all the 22224

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### assumptions and the description of how they 1 

### tapered that insulation are all on that document. 2 

### So I would first go back to that document. 3 

### After circulating that document nobody, 4 

### you know, flagged anything. But you know, please 5 

### look it over and see if we need to have a further 6 

### discussion on it. So. They're sure they're from 7 

### last week's meeting. 8 

### MR. LUBLINER: Joe, Mike Lubliner. 9 

### MR. HAGERMAN: Two weeks ago. 10 

### MR. LUBLINER: Thanks, Joe. Mike 11 

### Lubliner. I don't know that they did the R49 12 

### case. I think they did the R38 case. And I 13 

### don't know that they assumed that the tapering 14 

### insulation that would have went in where the 15 

### tapering is for R38, with that insulation, that 16 

### bag count, did that get moved into the taller 17 

### area? Or was that just not even included? 18 

### So there are some details there that I 19 

### think if we're going to get into this trial case 20 

### proposal we'll need to look at more depth and 21 

### hopefully all the information on that is there. 22225

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### But I don't believe 49 -- that because of the 1 

### issue of how much you can really get in there was 2 

### evaluated in the report you shared, we can look 3 

### at that. 4 

### MR. HAGERMAN: Yeah. Why don't you just 5 

### MR. LUBLINER: It may not be a big issue. 6 

### MR. HAGERMAN: Yeah. This is Joe 7 

### Hagerman, DOE. Why don't you relook at that 8 

### report? They did do -- Package One had R49 in 9 

### it. And Package Two as well. But why don't you 10 

### look over that report and then get back to me if 11 

### you have questions. I'll get them to explain it. 12 

### MR. LUBLINER: Thank you. 13 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: No other questions for 14 

### Michael? 15 

### MR. LUBLINER: Lowell, I did not mean to 16 

### cut you off. 17 

### MR. UNGER: No, I was done. Thanks. 18 

### MR. RAMIZREZ: All right. Then if there 19 

### are no other questions for Michael then we're 20 

### going to jump into the 2015 IECC scope with 21 

### Manny. And let me ask the group, do you want 22226

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### Manny -- I think that one might be a little bit 1 

### longer discussion. Do you want to take a one 2 

### function before we roll into Manny's report? I 3 

### see a couple heads bobbing. 4 

### So let's do 10 minutes. Let's come back 5 

### and then we'll start off with Manny. 6 

### (Recess from 2:40 p.m. until 2:49 p.m.) 7 

### MR. RAMIREZ: Manny? 8


### MR. SANTANA: Yes. 9 

### MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. Sorry about the 10 

### hurry up and wait. But during -– during the 11 

### break, I’m thinking that this section might take 12 

### a little bit of time. 13 

### And there are a couple of other factors 14 

### as well that I believe Eric was working with you 15 

### pretty close on this piece. And he -– Eric is 16 

### going to actually be with us tomorrow. 17 

### And we just found out as well that the 18 

### 2015 IECC books came in today. They are at the 19 

### office right now and we could bring those 20


### tomorrow. 21 

### Let me ask the group here, who has copies 22227

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### of the 2015 codes? Did anyone bring them? 1 

### Okay. So having the books may be 2 

### beneficial. I believe that ten copies were 3 

### ordered so we might have enough for everyone 4 

### here. And if not, we may have to do some 5 

### sharing. But at least we could follow along on 6 

### that as well. 7 

### So what I’m suggesting is that we save 8 

### that for tomorrow, for Manny’s report. Is 9 

### everyone okay with that? 10 

### MS. HOFFMAN: Manny, are you okay with 11 

### that? 12 

### MR. SANTANA: It’s okay with me. This is 13 

### Manny here and I think that having the IECC in 14 

### order to see what we’re -– you know, because 15 

### we’re taking sections directly out of the IECC. 16 

### So you’re going to want to be familiar with the 17


### content. 18 

### You know, so I think that part is 19 

### critical. And if we could have the code book in 20 

### people’s hands tomorrow, that would be the way to 21


### go. 22228

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. Okay, so let’s do 1 

### that. And then one thing that -– and maybe this 2 

### is a bit selfish, but I think that it’s actually 3 

### going to be beneficial for everyone, is that as a 4 

### facilitator, one of the things that makes me 5 

### nervous is that when we start throwing out a 6 

### bunch of things that folks are going to do, and 7 

### it sounds like there -– it seems like there is a 8 

### lot out there right now, and I think there might 9 

### be some benefit if we could review –- let’s call 10 

### it the road map, right, to a fact sheet -- what 11 

### do we need to do, who is going to do it and by 12 

### when? Somewhat of a summary of what we –- of 13 

### what’s out there. 14 

### Okay. Is everyone okay with that? 15 

### All right. So as far as just getting to 16 

### a terms sheet –- let me just jot down a couple of 17 

### notes here. 18 

### MR. HAGERMAN: This is Joe Hagerman, DOE. 19 

### It strikes me that this group as a whole is going 20 

### to have to make a lot of decisions in the next 21 

### coming meetings, right? 22229

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### And that’s all based on a lot of the 1 

### information that we have been discussing today. 2 

### And it’s still out withstanding -- or 3 

### outstanding. 4 

### I think what you’re hopefully trying to 5 

### do here is record –- start to record some of 6 

### those decisions that us as a group need to make, 7 

### right? 8 

### MR. RAMIREZ: Right. 9 

### MR. HAGERMAN: And then hopefully start 10 

### recording when we’re going to get that 11 

### information so we can start making those 12 

### decisions, right? 13 

### Just it worries me, and I think it 14 

### worries John too that -- you know, that we’re 15 

### kind of kicking the can down the street a little 16 

### bit. Rightfully so because we need the data, got 17 

### it. 18 

### But at some point in time we have to say, 19 

### okay, we have enough. And, you know, this is a 20 

### working group, it's composed of professionals 21 

### that need to use their professional judgment, 22230

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### right, as experts in this space to guide that 1 

### term sheet. 2 

### MR. RAMIREZ: One of the things that we 3 

### constantly look for is paralysis by over 4 

### analysis, right? And so at what point do we need 5 

### to pull the trigger? 6 

### And one of them is -– and we just talked 7 

### about this this morning, is the affordability 8 

### piece that Robin talked about. And that’s the 9 

### two paths. And we just formed that subcommittee. 10 

### So why don’t we put the affordability 11 

### subcommittee. 12 

### And basically, just in a nutshell, we're 13 

### talking about two compliance paths. And 14 

### hopefully that committee can work on a term sheet 15 

### that would include both of those paths, right? 16 

### Okay. Paths being the terminology that 17 

### we’re using for something else. and that’s 18 

### something else that’s on my list here, right? 19 

### Okay. So product types, yeah. And then 20 

### assign to –- Robin, we’re just going to put your 21 

### name down there as the lead for that committee. 22231

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### Our next meeting is the 22 nd

### and the 23 rd



### . 1 

### So is that something that you could have by the 2 

### 22 nd

### ? 3


### MR. ROY: Yes. 4 

### MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. And if -– if you get 5 

### anything done sooner and you could send it to Joe 6 

### so that we could have any analysis run that need 7 

### to be run. Then we will get on that as soon as 8 

### possible. 9 

### MR. HAGERMAN: Yeah, everybody gets bonus 10 

### credit if you get me the stuff early. 11 

### MR. RAMIREZ: Is there anything 12 

### additional that you need in order to move on 13 

### that? 14 

### MR. ROY: It’s Robin. No, I will be 15 

### calling a few folks and seeing what kind of 16 

### information we have as well as putting the 17 

### subcommittee together. 18 

### MR. RAMIREZ: Okay, all right. 19 

### And then –- 20 

### MR. LUBLINER: This is Mike Lubliner. 21 

### MR. RAMIREZ: Yeah, Michael. 22232

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### MR. LUBLINER: I don't know if Rick 1 

### Mendlen is still in the room from HUD but I 2 

### was -- as I have commented on this one before, I 3 

### think that getting a good distribution of percent 4 

### glazing as a function to floor area would be a 5 

### useful thing to help inform this proposal or 6 

### discussion. 7 

### So I’m just wondering if there is a way 8 

### that we can quickly get some of that data so that 9 

### we’re not exempting homes that shouldn’t be 10 

### exempted from the full path, or vice versa. 11 

### And Robin, do you believe that that 12 

### information is going to be important for -- as a 13 

### prerequisite, and how do you plan to get it? 14 

### MR. ROY: This is Robin. I don’t think 15 

### it’s a prerequisite but I think that information 16 

### would be useful. 17 

### Rick, as a member of the public, would 18 

### you care to comment on the possible availability 19 

### of such information through HUD or its 20


### contractors? 21 

### MR. RAMIREZ: Thank you, Robin. 22233

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### Rick? 1 

### MR. MENDLEN: Robin, we have all of the 2 

### floor plans that are approved that are currently 3 

### in use. And so telling you, you know, by region, 4 

### by location, we don’t have it that way. They 5 

### just get model approvals. 6 

### And they can do upgrades and, you know, 7 

### as long as they meet the minimums in their 8 

### packages -- if you want a sampling, we can try to 9 

### do something for you. But I need to know what 10 

### the ground -– what the criteria would be. 11 

### MR. RAMIREZ: You’re talking about 12 

### sampling of different floor plans? 13 

### MR. MENDLEN: Yeah. I mean -- but I 14 

### think you’re going to find that -- you heard Mark 15 

### Ezzo said -- he’s on the line -- that he’s going 16 

### to give you the best data possible because he’s 17 

### got –- they represent the largest manufacturer in 18 

### the business right now. So they ought to have a 19 

### fairly good cross-section of available window 20 

### sizes that are being used. 21 

### And I think you’re going to find that 22234

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### it’s somewhere between eight to ten percent as an 1


### average. 2 

### MR. ROY: And as a member -– thank you, 3 

### that’s very helpful. 4 

### And as a member of this subcommittee, 5 

### Mark Weiss, I will no doubt be asking you whether 6 

### you think some of your –- the members that you 7 

### represent have dissimilar attributes that we 8 

### should be particularly cognizant of. 9 

### MR. LUBLINER: Thank you, Rick. This is 10 

### Mike Lubliner and I appreciate your input. 11 

### MR. RAMIREZ: All right. So then Mark 12 

### Ezzo and Mark Weiss will provide some information 13 

### on glazing area? 14 

### MS. HOFFMAN: Mark Ezzo, can you do that? 15 

### MR. EZZO: Yeah, I’m fine with that. 16 

### MS. HOFFMAN: Good. Thanks. You’re an 17 

### honorary member of Robin’s committee. 18 

### MR. EZZO: Glad to be included. Thanks, 19 

### Robin. 20 

### MR. RAMIREZ: All right. Term sheet will 21 

### also have -- 22235

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### MR. LUBLINER: I’m sorry, it’s Mike 1 

### Lubliner again. I’m wondering if Mark Weiss is 2 

### going to be able to provide the other 3 

### manufacturers' glazing to make sure that we’re 4 

### not biasing this towards the Clayton brands. 5 

### MR. RAMIREZ: Yeah, Mark has acknowledged 6 

### that, that he would work on that and see what he 7 

### could get. 8 

### MR. LUBLINER: Thank you, Mark. 9 

### MR. RAMIREZ: All right. Kind of going 10 

### back to the beginning here, and the scope and 11 

### definition of what this working group is doing 12 

### for the term sheet, that would be the title or in 13 

### the beginning of the term sheet. 14 

### A draft of that –- where does that come 15 

### from? Joe, is that something that you guys put 16 

### together or where does that come from? I’m 17 

### assuming that there’s going to be like a scope 18 

### of -- 19 

### MS. HOFFMAN: I think there’s a template 20 

### for this, for the term sheet explaining the 21 

### committee and the scope. 22236

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### MR. HAGERMAN: I’m sorry, I’m with you 1 

### now. So Joe Hagerman, DOE. Navigant has taken 2 

### all of the term sheets the previous working 3 

### groups have compiled and reduced those to, you 4 

### know, an outline that -- you know, they are 5 

### acting as, you know, administrative staff for us 6 

### here to help, you know, compile this for the 7 

### group so that nobody necessarily has to write 8 

### anything. 9 

### So what they have done is tried to 10 

### extract that a little bit. And that’s what we 11 

### were going to share at, you know, 4:30 or 3:30 12


### tomorrow. 13 

### MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. 14 

### MR. HAGERMAN: But it contains stuff 15 

### like, you know, we need to come up with 16 

### definitions. Especially if you’re going to start 17 

### talking about a new product, you know, type. 18 

### It’s going to have to have these performance, you 19 

### know, U-value routes versus prescriptive routes 20 

### versus, you know, performance routes. So it’s 21 

### going to contain those such things. 22237

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### MR. RAMIREZ: So Navigant by tomorrow? 1 

### MR. HAGERMAN: Yeah. 2 

### MR. RAMIREZ: Early on we talked about 3 

### climate zones. Are we using the 2015 IECC or are 4 

### we using the 3 HUD climate zones? 5 

### The question I have for you all is that 6 

### something that you could decide today? If not, 7 

### what do you need in order to make this decision? 8 

### MR. ROY: This is Robin. My thinking is 9 

### that it’s best to let the numbers inform whether 10 

### there is some benefit in it. And then it can go 11 

### back with the manufacturers and see if they have 12 

### some disproportionate costs. 13 

### I assume that the analysis that the DOE 14 

### is doing, it’s not adding much to their burden to 15 

### separate it. So I would hold it off, not really 16 

### to defer it, because you’ll have information 17 

### that’s meaningful later. 18 

### MR. HAGERMAN: This is Joe Hagerman, DOE. 19 

### Is that one of the last decisions that you think 20 

### we have to make? 21 

### Okay. It’s one of the first questions we 22238

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### had and it’s the last decision that we are going 1 

### to make. All right, got it. 2 

### MS. HOFFMAN: But Navigant is using both, 3 

### right? 4 

### MR. HAGERMAN: They are doing all eight 5 

### climate zones and then they map it to the three 6 

### climate zones. So when you see the data, you see 7 

### it both ways. 8 

### MR. ROY: It’s not quite the last because 9 

### I would like to know very much the manufacturers, 10 

### whether there are undue burdens and costs or 11 

### costs savings. So some time for them to reflect 12 

### upon it would be very useful. 13 

### MR. RAMIREZ: So as far as assigned to, 14 

### it sounds like PN&L and Navigant will be 15 

### providing data all along. 16 

### Lois, do you have something? 17 

### MS. STARKEY: Yeah, I agree with Robin. 18 

### But I also wanted to address the issue of kicking 19 

### the can down the road. Because I think once we 20 

### get this cost -– we get you this cost data at the 21 

### end of the week, I think that things will fall 22239

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### into place fairly quickly because we really have 1 

### had a lot of discussion. 2 

### And any of you manufacturers, my members 3 

### or Emanuel on the phone, jump in if you don’t 4 

### agree with me. But I think, you know, once we 5 

### get the numbers, I think the next meeting we have 6 

### will be very productive and we may even be able 7 

### to do some work before that. 8 

### MR. RAMIREZ: Great. And so what I’m 9 

### understanding is that once we plug in the real 10 

### numbers, it will bring some clarity to where we 11 

### can even actually get consensus on some items. 12 

### MR. HAGERMAN: Joe Hagerman, DOE. I have 13 

### one question about the costs. And maybe Emanuel 14 

### can answer this but -– so I believe he is pulling 15 

### together costs for individual components, right? 16 

### Like how much more are R9 insulation costs versus 17 

### R13 insulation. Is that correct, Emmanuel? 18 

### MR. LEVY: That’s right. What we will 19 

### have is similar to what the laboratory did. We 20 

### will have a description of the whole component 21 

### design that includes each individual level of 22240

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### insulation, R13 and R19 and so on, and all of the 1 

### other components to make up that composite 2 

### construction and the U-value that corresponds to 3 

### that. 4 

### MR. HAGERMAN: All right. 5 

### MR. LEVY: And the costs -– and the 6 

### average cost for that. and it was requested a 7 

### high and a low. 8 

### MR. HAGERMAN: So do you feel like -– 9 

### MR. LEVY: That’s what our plan is. 10 

### MR. HAGERMAN: So do you feel like the 11 

### way you are going to present that information is 12 

### consistent with how Matthew is pulling together 13 

### the LCC, that he can just plug and, you know, 14 

### copy and paste your numbers into his LCC, or is 15 

### there going to be another -- you know, another 16 

### necessity for him or Navigant to aggregate those 17 

### costs up? 18 

### MR. LEVY: Well, actually -– 19 

### MR. HAGERMAN: What I want to try to do 20 

### is avoid, you know, having to have another, you 21 

### know, discussion or working group on costs just 22241

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### because the costs weren’t aggregated up and he’s 1 

### having to translate things. I don’t necessarily 2 

### want him to have to translate anything. 3 

### MR. LEVY: You know, I’m sure there will 4 

### have to be some discussion about this, but I 5 

### think what Matthew needs -- and, Matthew, tell me 6 

### if this is correct or not -- is costs for all of 7 

### the specific levels of R value that you have 8 

### modeled that are in the matrix. 9 

### So the -– so for all of the combinations 10 

### of different measures for all of the levels of 11 

### IECC and HUD code, you need to have what the R 12 

### values and the costs are for each of the 13 

### components to make up all of those packages. 14 

### MR. WALKER: And this is Matthew Walker 15 

### from Navigant. That is correct, that is just 16 

### what we need. 17 

### MR. LEVY: And we will probably be 18 

### providing more discreet data than that. We will 19 

### have some intermediate levels as well. But you 20 

### can pick and choose what information you will 21 

### need. 22242

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### MR. HAGERMAN: So this is Joe Hagerman 1 

### again, just real quick. So not to belabor the 2 

### point, but there is that one category of the air 3 

### exchanges for the unit. Are you going to be able 4 

### to cost out the different levels of air 5 

### exchanges? 6 

### A Well, I think so. We have to see 7 

### what’s in the package. I think that’s what we 8 

### talked about earlier, that Matthew had put 9 

### together a list of the items that are in that 10 

### package. And then we will go back to the 11 

### manufacturers and ask them for costs associated 12 

### with that. Am I thinking about that correctly? 13 

### MR. HAGERMAN: I think that’s correct. 14 

### This is Joe Hagerman, I think that’s correct. 15 

### I’m going to go back –- I’m going to work 16 

### with Matthew and PN&L so we can describe in very 17 

### kind of explicit terms –- discreet terms what it 18 

### is and those different packages of air exchanges. 19 

### MR. LEVY: Yeah. I mean, my logic of 20 

### associating those particular measures with a 21 

### particular level of air infiltration is something 22243

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### that may need to be discussed but –- 1


### MR. HAGERMAN: Sure. 2 

### MR. LEVY: -- we can certainly cost out 3 

### the measures. 4 

### MR. HAGERMAN: Sure. And then Mike 5 

### Lubliner, do you have a question? 6 

### MR. LUBLINER: Yeah, along these lines, 7 

### the –- if we are going to be looking at the costs 8 

### of the envelope leakage, it would be important I 9 

### think to separate out the labor and materials 10 

### costs from the testing. 11 

### Make sure we can separate that out so 12 

### that we can look at both of those and seek 13 

### cost better solutions. 14 

### The other thing I was going to point out 15 

### is I would recommend the same thing for the 16 

### duct –- the assumed costs for tidying up the duct 17 

### work, we should do the same thing. 18 

### I think I got cut off when I was trying 19 

### to make the point that our experience has been 20 

### that the cost of mastic and labor for tighter 21 

### ducts are about the same. But I would like to 22244

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### get some confirmation from real people in the 1 

### industry doing this. 2 

### So those would be the two that I think -– 3 

### make sure that we clarify that we are going to 4 

### get both of those from the industry and we are 5 

### going to break out the implications of the 6 

### testing from the actual materials and labor. 7 

### Joe, that was my one point. And I have 8 

### one other point. And that is March 24th

### , 2010, 9 

### Tom Eckman in Northwest Power Planning Council 10 

### provided cost data from the Pacific Northwest 11 

### based on many years of working with –- in 12 

### partnership with the manufactured housing 13 

### industry and the utilities. 14 

### This is research that’s been done. And I 15 

### just want to make sure that the cost data that 16 

### was provided in the (unintelligible) -- this was 17 

### the response to your request back in 2010 to 18 

### provide cost data, and we did. 19 

### And I just want to be clear as to what 20 

### extent was that cost data used. And I would 21 

### encourage some discussion if that cost data comes 22245

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### way in off from efforts going on. 1 

### So perhaps, Emmanuel, if you haven’t seen 2 

### that, or if your costs committee hasn’t seen 3 

### that, it would be appropriate to share it. This 4 

### is all public record. And I think that we 5 

### probably could help to evaluate areas where there 6 

### may be questions. 7 

### And I would love to volunteer to work on 8 

### that if we do run into issues on costs and make 9 

### sure that we’re all talking apples and apples. 10 

### What we have seen in the past is that 11 

### costs, incremental costs really get driven by the 12 

### assumption of the base case that we have 13 

### discussed here today. 14 

### So not only do we want to make sure that 15 

### we have good cost data and we’re clear on how 16 

### that cost data gets marked up to the consumer, 17 

### but we need to have these other factors in 18


### concern too. 19 

### Thank you. Sorry for the ramble. 20 

### MR. RAMIREZ: Michael, you said you have 21 

### that report? 22246

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### MR. LUBLINER: It should be in public 1 

### record. 2 

### MR. RAMIREZ: All right. So we will 3 

### forward that to the group then. 4 

### Okay. The other thing that I have on 5 

### here is the paths that we are going to be 6 

### following, right? 7 

### We had talked about the possibility of 8 

### having three different paths, the performance, 9 

### prescriptive and the UO. Is that the road that 10 

### we are going down or are we looking at just one 11 

### path? Lois? 12 

### MS. STARKEY: Speaking on behalf of the 13 

### manufacturers, we definitely want the performance 14 

### path. If we have –- we can certainly have a 15 

### prescriptive path but that’s how we do -– that’s 16 

### how we build our homes. And they are built very 17 

### efficiently because of that. 18 

### MR. RAMIREZ: So is that all we need is 19 

### one path of performance? 20 

### MS. HOFFMAN: What I heard, maybe I 21 

### should just clarify, was that there seemed to be 22247

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### a passive recognition of a variety of paths to 1 

### get there, both prescriptive and performance and 2 

### maybe one other, is that correct? Yeah, the UO 3 

### and -– 4


### MR. WEISS: Yes. 5


### MS. HOFFMAN: Yes. 6 

### MR. WEISS: Yeah. Mark Weiss, I mean, 7 

### under the HUD code absolutely performance has 8 

### always been the way to go. And it’s the way it’s 9 

### set up. And it’s a result of the affordability. 10 

### But I think what we discussed -- and Lois 11 

### wasn’t here for the last meeting, but what we 12 

### discussed was getting cost information. 13


### MS. STARKEY: Sure. 14 

### MR. WEISS: Data for all paths and -– 15 

### MS. STARKEY: Right. 16 

### MR. WEISS: -- then look at them, so -- 17 

### MS. STARKEY: Right. But it appeared 18 

### that we wanted to pursue or at least look at all 19 

### three roads to heaven here. And getting the data 20 

### as well. Okay. 21 

### MR. HAGERMAN: Joe Hagerman -- 22248

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### MR. LUBLINER: Mike Lubliner again, I 1 

### want to clarify –- 2 

### MR. RAMIREZ: Michael –- 3 

### MR. LUBLINER: -- (unintelligible) 4 

### proposal – 5 

### MR. RAMIREZ: I’m sorry, go ahead, 6 

### Michael. 7 

### MR. LUBLINER: Yes, my question was we 8 

### had a keep it simple proposal which was 9 

### prescriptive in nature and just kind of a trial 10 

### balloon. Is there any effort to make sure that 11 

### the costs that we have can be used to estimate 12 

### what the incremental costs of those packages 13 

### might be? 14 

### And is somebody working on that or is 15 

### that something that our committee needs to work 16


### on? 17 

### It seems like there needs to be some 18 

### liaison on that one between the cost people and 19 

### to the extent that we are going to use that 20 

### simplified path in rule making. 21 

### MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. Is –- nothing is 22249

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### being done on that, right, as of yet? 1 

### MR. HAGERMAN: This is Joe Hagerman, DOE. 2 

### Michael, I’m sorry, I don’t follow you. So could 3 

### you re-ask the question? 4 

### MR. LUBLINER: Yeah, I’m sorry, Joe. 5 

### What I was hoping is that we might be 6 

### able to get -– using the cost data we’re 7 

### collecting, that Emanuel is collecting, that we 8 

### make sure that we have sufficient data to cost 9 

### out the –- those KISS paths that were received 10 

### rather favorably by many of the industry folks in 11 

### correspondence with me. 12 

### MR. HAGERMAN: Absolutely. So we are 13 

### going to have to make sure that those packages 14 

### are reflected in the LCC, if they’re not already. 15 

### MR. LUBLINER: Thank you. 16 

### MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. So I guess I’m still 17 

### not certain. I’m hearing that there’s a 18 

### possibility of exploring two of the three paths. 19 

### Are we saying to keep that open still to possibly 20 

### explore all three or has it been narrowed down to 21 

### performance and prescriptive? 22250

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### MR. ROY: This is Robin. I think keep it 1 

### open. I don’t think the analyses differ that DOE 2 

### does. It doesn’t really require any change in 3 

### what DOE and Navigant do, so we don’t need to 4 

### make an arbitrary decision. 5 

### We clearly have an interest in the 6 

### prescriptive and which type of performance, is it 7 

### a UA or UO. We don’t have to decide that. We 8 

### might find that they both have benefits. 9 

### MS. HOFFMAN: So we’re holding this in 10 

### abeyance? We are going to keep going. 11 

### MR. RAMIREZ: Based on the data. 12 

### MS. HOFFMAN: Yeah. 13 

### MR. ROY: There’s just no reason to 14 

### limit. 15 

### MS. HOFFMAN: Right. 16 

### MR. HAGERMAN: Joe Hagerman, DOE. The 17 

### only third path was that rated path. And we 18 

### didn’t hear really any strong reaction whether to 19 

### include that or not. So that is an entirely 20 

### different path in terms of how it’s formulated. 21 

### MR. ROY: You mean the HERS related one? 22251

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### I thought what we had heard – this is Robin. We 1 

### had heard about that was the HERS method did not 2 

### seem particularly suited to small homes, smaller 3 

### typical homes. So that was not likely to be 4 

### sensible for manufactured housing. 5 

### MR. UNGAR: This is Lowell, one question 6 

### on that. I know that you did some analysis 7 

### trying to map the UO to the others. Are -- for 8 

### all of the runs, like for the Straw Man, are 9 

### there also calculations of UO and UA values? And 10 

### I assume that would be -– or is that a trivial 11 

### thing to do? 12 

### And just in terms of if we’re dealing 13 

### with these three paths. If it’s easy, would it 14 

### be useful to have –- for all of these various 15 

### runs and also for the different window of ratios, 16 

### to have what’s the associated UO and UA values so 17 

### we know what we’re dealing with and if we’re 18 

### going to try to look at all three of them. 19 

### MR. RAMIREZ: So by me seeing Ed jot that 20 

### down, I’m assuming that that’s something that 21 

### Navigant is going to work on, or is that PN&L? 22252

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### MR. BARBOUR: This is Ed Barbour, 1 

### Navigant Consultant. We will work with PN&L. And 2 

### they have already –- I believe they have already 3 

### done the UO calculations for all of the different 4 

### runs. And so it’s fairly straightforward. The UA 5 

### is pretty straightforward as well to do. 6 

### MR. LUBLINER: This is Mike Lubliner. It 7 

### seems like the REScheck, given that we get the 8 

### right U values and the assumptions for 9 

### compression and tapering and things like that in 10 

### there, which are based on PN&L’s U value 11 

### documentation for HUD, you know, that we are 12 

### probably in a pretty good position to look at 13 

### REScheck and just take the view A that comes out 14 

### of that and divide by the surface area, add the 15 

### crossover duct to UA implication and have a UO 16 

### value. Very simple modifications to make the 17 

### REScheck to allow it to be used for both, UO or 18


### UA. 19 

### MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. Then we have Manny’s 20 

### report which we are going to be doing tomorrow, 21 

### which is the 2015 IECC, which are excluded, which 22253

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### are included and which need discussion. So 1 

### that’s going to happen tomorrow. 2 

### What else, what else do we need to put on 3 

### this list that we need in order to get to a final 4 

### term sheet? 5 

### MR. HAGERMAN: Joe Hagerman, DOE. So 6 

### just to be clear, every time I send you any 7 

### materials I always put a careful note at the top 8 

### that says, you know, there are other factors in 9 

### the 2015 IECC that you need to consider, right? 10 

### And so I think that’s what Manny’s group is going 11 

### to go over tomorrow. 12 

### But just to stress, you know, that code 13 

### includes other factors other than just 14 

### prescriptions or prescribing the envelope and the 15 

### performance. There may be some requirement for 16 

### ventilation or pipe wrap or, you know, whatever 17 

### those items are. 18 

### But I think that the group needs to at 19 

### least discuss them and see if they are applicable 20 

### to manufactured housing. 21 

### MR. RAMIREZ: Manny, is that part of what 22254

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### we are going to be walking through with your 1 

### subcommittee to at which –- which of these 2015 2 

### IECC pieces we need to consider? 3 

### MR. SANTANA: Well, this is Manny with 4 

### Cavco. You know, the IECC, it gives you three 5 

### ways, three general ways, right, which allows you 6 

### to say you're IECC compliant, or it gives you 7 

### three ways to comply, you know. 8 

### And regardless of which way you use, 9 

### there are certain sections –- I think there’s 10 

### twenty-five in total that are called mandatory 11 

### that you have to comply with regardless of –- 12 

### now, ventilation, say whole house ventilation, 13 

### isn’t one of them. But there are some things -- 14 

### duct sealing, that is one of them. And, you 15 

### know, insulation of mechanical piping, that’s one 16 

### of them, you know. 17 

### So what we’re going to do is, we’re -- 18 

### we're eating an elephant, right? So we’re taking 19 

### it one bite at a time. So we started off with 20 

### just a section that are mandated, and which of 21 

### those sections we can include and which of those 22255

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### sections we could exclude, and without any other 1 

### kind of discussion. 2 

### And we were going to present those, the 3 

### easy stuff first. And then as time permitted or 4 

### as time went on, we were going to start to 5 

### discuss some of the other ones and see if there 6 

### is any way we can come to any recommendations for 7 

### the group as a whole. 8 

### And if we finished the mandatory 9 

### provisions, we were going to jump into the rest 10 

### of the code. You know, so that might include 11 

### climate zones, it might include, you know, their 12 

### prescriptive path. But it all depends on how 13 

### fast we work and how fast we can come to a 14



### consensus. 15 

### But initially it was just to look for the 16 

### mandatory sections and try to provide a 17 

### recommendation on those. 18 

### MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. So then it sounds 19 

### like we may gradually expand what your committee 20 

### is doing just to continue going through all of 21 

### the 2015, but we will start off with what you 22256

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### have tomorrow. 1 

### MR. ROY: This is Robin. And there is 2 

### one other thing that I think we need to have a 3 

### coherent discussion, even if we don’t regulate 4 

### it, on the treatment of NAECA covered products, 5 

### water heaters and space heating. 6 

### We need to address that explicitly, why 7 

### we are not covering it, if we don’t. Then we need 8 

### to have recommendations for it if we do. 9 

### MR. RAMIREZ: Is that something that will 10 

### be flushed out when we are reviewing the 2015 11 

### codes or is that something specific that we need 12 

### to add on here? 13 

### MR. ROY: Largely preempted in the IECC 14 

### coverage of these NAECA covered products. So, 15 

### no, it won’t be flushed out there. 16 

### MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. 17 

### MR. ROY: It will be flushed out, not 18 

### fleshed out. 19 

### MR. RAMIREZ: Depending. 20 

### MR. HAGERMAN: Joe Hagerman with DOE. I 21 

### think you added a few more things to that list. 22257

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### And that is labeling, that this group needs to 1 

### have some recommendation to ASRAC or Energy Star. 2 

### Is that already up there? 3 

### MR. ROY: I consider that up there under 4 

### the affordability piece. 5 

### MR. HAGERMAN: Okay. 6 

### MR. ROY: I know it’s not really but it 7 

### will show up again there. 8 

### MR. HAGERMAN: We also previously heard 9 

### that this group might want to make some 10 

### recommendations to –- even though it’s currently 11 

### outside the scope of the committee, thoughts on 12 

### enforcement and compliance or enforcement. 13 

### MR. ROY: I would think that would be 14 

### completely sensible but I thought you really 15 

### wanted to avoid that? 16 

### MR. HAGERMAN: Well, we do. It’s not the 17 

### scope of this committee yet. But you could 18 

### recommend that this committee extends itself to 19 

### think about those issues. 20 

### MS. HOFFMAN: If we can get this part 21 

### resolved, I think we can move ahead to the 22258

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### compliance and enforcement. But we have to get 1 

### through this first. 2 

### MR. RAMIREZ: We’ll stir up this pond 3 

### first and then we’ll go stir up that pond next, 4 

### okay. 5 

### MR. LEVY: Hey, Javier? 6 

### MR. RAMIREZ: Yeah. 7 

### MR. LEVY: Emmanuel, just to –- I know 8 

### you need to get your list longer. There are a 9 

### couple of items in which we will be talking about 10 

### tomorrow which will probably overlap with what 11 

### Manny’s committee is also doing on the whole 12 

### house and duct leakage levels and solar heat gain 13 

### coefficient, but let’s not lose track of the 14 

### discussion on climate zones. 15 

### I don't know if we have put that to bed 16 

### and said we are going to stay with the existing 17 

### three, I thought that was still on the table, 18 

### because that certainly is a -– 19 

### MR. RAMIREZ: Yeah, it is. 20 

### MR. LEVY: -- issue. 21 

### MR. RAMIREZ: I think it’s under –- can 22259

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### you go to the scope template –- definitions and 1 

### the term sheet in the notes section there. Oh, 2 

### I’m sorry, climate zones is separate. 3 

### Yeah, we have not –- we didn’t finalize 4 

### any decision on that. The group was going to 5 

### look at some additional data as we go along and 6 

### then hopefully it will kind of make it clear of 7 

### which path we need to follow. But that's not a 8 

### decision that's been made yet. 9 

### MR. LUBLINER: I have a question, Mike 10 

### Lubliner here, on climate zones. 11 

### MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. 12 

### MR. LUBLINER: It seems that –- it seems 13 

### that we’re talking about two options right now. 14 

### One would be to use the IECC climate zones or use 15 

### the three HUD climate zones, which I personally 16 

### am in favor of the three HUD climate zones. 17 

### If there are some other proposal that’s 18 

### going to try to come up with a hybrid of those, 19 

### which I have heard some rumblings about, but 20 

### nothing formally discussed, I’d like to know 21 

### about that and put that on the table. 22260

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### But I’m just wondering, you know, can we 1 

### get some sort of a sense from the group now based 2 

### on what we’ve heard so far about how the group is 3 

### leaning towards the two existing climate zone 4 

### proposals, which is the IECC or the HUD climate 5 

### zone, or is that not appropriate for discussion 6 

### yet? 7 

### MR. RAMIREZ: Well, we heard from you 8 

### that you’re leaning towards the three HUD, 9 

### correct? So does anyone else want to chime in? 10 

### MR. ROY: This is Robin. And I’m leaning 11 

### towards letting the numbers speak and then seeing 12 

### whether the manufacturers have reasons as to why 13 

### we should overrule that. 14 

### MR. LEVY: I second that. 15 

### MR. ROY: On appliances =– 16 

### MR. RAMIREZ: Who seconded that on the 17 

### phone? 18 

### MR. LEVY: Emmanuel. 19 

### MS. HOFFMAN: Come on, Manny. We have to 20 

### have you identify yourself. 21 

### MR. ROY: The appliances, is that the 22261

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### space and water heating equipment? I would say 1 

### that’s space and water heating equipment as 2 

### opposed to appliances. Appliances, people might 3 

### misread that as -– 4 

### MR. HAGERMAN: You have already 5 

### established that it’s everything that ships from 6 

### the factory installed. 7 

### MR. ROY: Yeah, I really –- yes. But I 8 

### would like to draw out the space and water 9 

### heating from appliances -– equipment from 10 

### appliances. I think it’s worth doing. 11 

### MR. HAGERMAN: It’s all equipment shipped 12 

### from the factory installed. 13 

### MR. SCHNEIDER: This is Peter Schneider 14 

### (unintelligible). I may have missed it, but were 15 

### there discussions with regards to roof pitch and 16 

### has that been evaluated to determine, you know, 17 

### height down the road with, you know, 18 

### (unintelligible) value over the exterior wall as 19 

### we had discussed two weeks ago? 20 

### We were going to evaluate the limitations 21 

### on roof pitch. And I just wanted to mention that 22262

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### in case I missed it. 1 

### MR. RAMIREZ: Yeah, we gave you a few 2 

### assignments. 3 

### MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah. 4 

### MR. RAMIREZ: Actually, David did have a 5 

### request from you. David Tompos wanted to know 6 

### how you get the higher U value in the ceiling 7 

### with the limited height restriction of 13.6. 8 

### MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, we’re at –- yeah. 9 

### MR. RAMIREZ: So if you could -- if you 10 

### could do me a favor though, if you could call 11 

### David and let him know how you all do that, I 12 

### would appreciate that. 13 

### MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay. 14 

### MR. RAMIREZ: Is that something you could 15 

### do for us? 16


### MR. SCHNEIDER: Sure. 17 

### MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. 18 

### MR. LUBLINER: Peter, Mike Lubliner. 19


### MR. SCHNEIDER: Yes. 20 

### MR. LUBLINER: I had a -– I just wanted 21 

### to -– I did ask David if he could give us some 22263

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### estimate of how much of blown insulation is 1 

### displaced when you have a conventional full heel 2 

### truss versus what is typical out there so that we 3 

### can start to decide, you know, how much -- how 4 

### many bags of insulation are moved or are 5 

### displaced, and what the implication is for U 6 

### value in coming up with an approach that allows 7 

### the home to be shipped under current 8 

### restrictions. 9 

### So I’m hoping that that group, that they 10 

### will be able to provide some of that information 11 

### as well. I think that really –- 12 

### MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah, that’s great. 13 

### MR. LUBLINER: -- gets at the discussion 14 

### that you have. The issue of the R60 is a 15 

### separate issue. 16 

### MR. RAMIREZ: What else do we need in 17 

### order to get to this term sheet? 18 

### MS. HOFFMAN: Emanuel, I see you’re on 19 

### the program for tomorrow. Are you going to have 20 

### data to present tomorrow? 21 

### MR. LEVY: What we’re talking about 22264

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### tomorrow are these white papers that I sent you. 1 

### MS. HOFFMAN: Oh, okay. Okay. So you 2 

### will be discussing that. Fine, thank you. 3 

### MR. LEVY: Right. 4 

### MR. RAMIREZ: Yeah. So if we get all of 5 

### this stuff right here we could put our term sheet 6 

### together, correct? 7 

### MR. HAGERMAN: If you think what’s up 8 

### there right now is the actual performance levels 9 

### that you’re trying to meet, right? 10 

### MR. RAMIREZ: Well, isn’t that –- that’s 11 

### part of what -- the 2015 that we're going to have 12 

### to walk through. 13 

### MR. HAGERMAN: That’s right. 14 

### MR. RAMIREZ: And it sounds like there's 15 

### going to be a number of walk-throughs on that. 16 

### MR. HAGERMAN: I just want to make it 17 

### more explicit that you’re going to have to be 18 

### picking levels. 19 

### MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. 20 

### MR. HAGERMAN: It’s not just the act of 21 

### saying are we going to have three paths, it’s 22265

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### we're going to have three paths or two paths or 1 

### one path, and then we're going to pick the levels 2 

### of the paths. 3 

### MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. 4 

### MR. HAGERMAN: For each of them, right, 5 

### just to make crystal clear. 6 

### MR. RAMIREZ: I’ll put for all paths. If 7 

### it’s one, it’s one. If it’s two, it’s two. If 8 

### it’s three, it’s three. 9 

### MR. LEVY: Javier, Emanuel, I just wanted 10 

### to mention again that what Robin talked about 11 

### earlier, the bifurcated standard, a decision to 12 

### go in that direction is rather important in terms 13 

### of the amount of work you’re talking about, or 14 

### potentially important. So I would think that 15 

### that probably has to be on the critical path. 16 

### MR. RAMIREZ: So in the notes section 17 

### there of the one that Ted just highlighted, we 18 

### need to put for all product types. I think 19 

### that’s what you’re -– is that what you were 20 

### getting at when –- at the end there? 21 

### MR. LEVY: Yeah. 22266

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### MR. SCHNEIDER: This is Peter. Just under 1 

### other discussion, I overheard the discussions 2 

### about U values and solar heat gain coefficients. 3 

### And I apologize if I missed it, but window type 4 

### and HUD not allowing encasements and awnings and 5 

### that those certainly should be allowable window 6 

### types, compression (unintelligible) and 7 

### beneficial from an air leakage standpoint, 8 

### overall performance. So I wanted to make sure 9 

### that that was included in our discussion. 10 

### MR. RAMIREZ: Is that something that 11 

### we're going to hit when we’re going through the 12 

### different 2015 pieces? 13 

### MR. HAGERMAN: Joe Hagerman, DOE. 14


### MR. SCHNEIDER: Yes. 15 

### MR. HAGERMAN: Joe Hagerman, DOE. I 16 

### think Emanuel Levy has a white paper in a Straw 17 

### Man on solar heat gain coefficients -- 18 

### MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. 19 

### MR. HAGERMAN: -- that he's going to 20 

### discuss tomorrow. Is that correct, Emanuel? So 21 

### we will have the discussion. 22267

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### MR. LUBLINER: This is Mike Lubliner. I 1 

### think that we're making progress with the solar 2 

### heat gain. One question that I have, and this 3 

### jumps back -– are we going to be able to get cost 4 

### data for the analysis that would allow us to 5 

### compare solar heat gain coefficient of a single 6 

### low-heat coating with the more expensive products 7 

### that gets you a better heat gain coefficient? 8 

### That's something that (unintelligible). 9 

### It may be useful to try to get what the 10 

### incremental costs for those two different 11 

### (unintelligible) coatings that achieve different 12 

### solar heat gain coefficents so that we can focus 13 

### our discussion on which is the appropriate one in 14 

### which climate zone. 15 

### Is that cost data we're going to break 16 

### down, Emanuel, do you know? 17 

### MR. LUBLINER: Just to answer your -– 18 

### Mike, just to answer your question, yes, we will 19 

### have cost data for the different window and 20 

### different solar heat gain coefficents. 21 

### The question I think we'll have to 22268

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### grapple with tomorrow is whether the decision 1 

### about solar heat gain coefficient is 2 

### predicated -– will be predicated on cost, cost 3 

### benefit or other considerations. 4 

### MR. HAGERMAN: Thank you. 5 

### MR. LUBLINER: That will be part of the 6 

### discussion tomorrow. 7 

### MR. LUTER: This is Robert Luter, if I 8 

### could comment. 9 

### MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. 10 

### MR. LUTER: This wasn’t quite as timely 11 

### as I intended. I was muted and didn’t realize 12 

### it. 13 

### With regards to casement awning and 14 

### compression seal windows, historically those have 15 

### not been permissible in a HUD application based 16 

### on egress considerations, having to crank them 17 

### open as opposed to simply throwing a couple of 18 

### latches and opening the sash. 19 

### Now, I don't know if that’s a good thing 20 

### or bad thing, but it’s a thing. If those were to 21 

### be considered going forward, it would be quite a 22269

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### paradigm shift. Thank you. 1 

### MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. 2 

### MR. SANTANA: This is Manny with Cavco. 3 

### MR. RAMIREZ: Yeah. 4 

### MR. SANTANA: You know, I’d like to get 5 

### something cleared up. You know, when we talk 6 

### about a term sheet, you know, does that 7 

### necessarily mean that it’s a completed energy 8 

### code, or are these just suggestions as far as we 9 

### can take them that we are going to provide to 10


### DOE. 11 

### You know, I'll give you an example, 12 

### instead of -- instead of determining what the 13 

### exact solar heat gain coefficient level has to 14 

### be, and in what areas it has to apply, if we 15 

### can’t come to any kind of consensus can we just 16 

### all agree to say, you know, solar heat gain 17 

### coefficients need to be included and considered? 18 

### You know, if we can’t determine what type 19 

### of U value it is that we need to end up with can 20 

### the term sheet item just say consider both 21 

### prescriptive and the UO based performance path? 22270

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### Or, you know, do we have to have 1 

### everything down and have all of the words figured 2 

### out, or can the term sheet just be a loose 3 

### conglomeration of concepts and suggestions? 4 

### MR. HAGERMAN: So -- Joe Hagerman, DOE. 5 

### So not to give you a non-answer, but I think the 6 

### correct answer is we would like that term sheet 7 

### to be as complete as this group can possibly make 8 

### it given the time constraints. 9 

### Now, notwithstanding if there's some 10 

### factor like solar heat gain coefficient that you 11 

### think the department needs to consider, but 12 

### there’s not enough time to consider it, or there 13 

### is more analysis that needs to be done, then we 14 

### can go back to -– you can make the recommendation 15 

### to extend the duration of this work group, or you 16 

### could just say we don’t need to extend it, DOE 17 

### just needs to decide or put that out for public 18


### comment. 19 

### Does that make sense? 20 

### MR. SANTANA: Yeah, that makes sense. 21 

### You know, and the reason why I bring it up is, 22271

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### you know, in line with what Javier has called 1 

### paralysis (unintelligible) analysis -- you know, 2 

### we’re asking for a whole bunch of surveys and a 3 

### whole bunch of, you know, analyses to be done 4 

### and, you know, numbers to be crunched. And 5 

### rightfully so, I think. 6 

### But, you know, without -- without having 7 

### something finalized, I think we can agree on 8 

### broad subjects, and then if we can whittle them 9 

### down and -- or, you know, get them, you know, 10 

### sharpened, that’s good. But if not, at least we 11 

### have the broad concepts of what it is that we 12 

### think we need. 13 

### MR. HAGERMAN: This is Joe Hagerman. 14 

### Absolutely. So, I mean, you are all here because 15 

### you’re professional experts in this. So, you 16 

### know, I don’t think the group needs to do so much 17 

### analysis that we get paralyzed, but that we can 18 

### take enough of this first analysis and then make 19 

### our professional judgments to write the best 20 

### standard. And get a very, very good standard 21 

### through this discussion. 22272

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### So that is -- that is the meat of a 1 

### negotiated rule making, right? You’re here, 2 

### you’re experts, you discuss it from your vantage 3 

### points, so -– 4 

### MR. RAMIREZ: I'll have one comment on 5 

### that, but let’s get Mark first. 6 

### MR. WEISS: Well, my comment was 7 

### (unintelligible). 8 

### MR. RAMIREZ: I guess you have to keep in 9 

### mind too is, if we don’t reach agreement, what’s 10 

### the default? 11 

### And that’s – that’s the one concern that 12 

### I would have for the group, right? 13 

### So -- and look, I'll just put it out 14 

### there, I kind of get in trouble sometimes for 15 

### being the bull in the china shop, as small as I 16 

### am, but it’s -– we know what the default is. 17 

### And more likely than not, you’re going to 18 

### get something that’s very close to the 2015 IECC 19 

### if you all can’t agree on some other number, 20 

### right? So just keep that in mind as we’re 21 

### working. 22273

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### Mark? 1 

### MR. WEISS: Thanks. Mark Weiss, MAHR. 2 

### Two things, first on affordability. I just want 3 

### to be clear that issues relating to affordability 4 

### go beyond what Robin has discussed today. The 5 

### way I look at it, what Robin outlined today is 6 

### it’s an approach to affordability. But there are 7 

### issues, potentially significant issues, like 8 

### extremely important issues that go beyond what he 9 

### has outlined. And I just want to make sure that 10 

### we're clear on that. 11 

### The other thing in terms of a possible 12 

### addition is, based on the statute, is input from 13 

### HUD. You know, I think we need input from HUD, 14 

### and I've said this before, at a meaningful stage 15 

### in the proceedings. And I think the sooner we 16 

### get that input, the better it’s going to be for 17 

### everybody concerned. 18 

### I know DOE, OGC has a view of that. But I 19 

### think that as part of this process we can at 20 

### least begin to get some of that input. 21 

### MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. What else, what else 22274

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### do we need to put on here? 1 

### MR. UNGAR: This is Lowell. I hesitate to 2 

### raise this, but it seems to me on the actual 3 

### performance levels, I've heard two very different 4 

### approaches for how people want to get there. And 5 

### I don't know whether -– I don't know how we deal 6 

### with that, I guess, as to whether we pursue both 7 

### of them and see whether they end up in the same 8 

### place or a different place, or whether we try to 9 

### figure out a path forward. 10 

### But it seems to me there is one path of 11 

### trying to find a minimum life cycle cost and 12 

### incremental savings until we get there, and 13 

### another approach of start from 2015 IECC and 14 

### modify that package until there's something that 15


### we agree on. 16 

### And I haven’t heard any agreement on 17 

### either –- you know, both of them seem workable 18 

### approaches potentially. But I assume I haven’t 19 

### heard agreement as to which one or how we use 20 

### both of them if we’re going to use them. 21 

### MR. RAMIREZ: Yeah, and that’s a scary 22275

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### conversation, you know. And the reason I say 1 

### that is that I’m afraid of getting tied down in a 2 

### process where we might be able to look at some of 3 

### the numbers. And I think that once we get some of 4 

### the costing data, I think that might help bring 5 

### some focus. 6 

### If we come to a point where we end up 7 

### getting log jammed, then we may have to –- we, 8 

### meaning the facilitators, may have to strong arm 9 

### you a little it and say, you know what, this is 10 

### the way we're going to do it. 11 

### You know, as far as a process goes. You 12 

### all are still controlling the content, but we may 13 

### have to exert a little bit more control as far as 14 

### possibly we might say, you know what, we're using 15 

### the 2015 and we're going to base it off of this. 16 

### But let’s just see how things go first 17 

### and see if we can make sufficient progress once 18 

### we get the actual numbers. Does that sound all 19 

### right? 20 

### MS. HOFFMAN: Yeah. Also there’s -– 21 

### Eileen Hoffman. There's legitimate backing for 22276

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### either of those approaches that you mentioned. 1 

### MR. RAMIREZ: Yeah. 2 

### MS. HOFFMAN: So we can wrestle with it. 3 

### MR. HAGERMAN: I hate -- this is Joe 4 

### Hagerman. I hate to say this, especially knowing 5 

### that it’s going on the record, but the meeting 6 

### that you missed, Robin said it’s like 7 

### pornography, we'll know it when we see it, right? 8 

### And I think that -– 9 

### MS. HOFFMAN: Robin does not remember 10 

### saying that. 11 

### MR. ROY: I would like to have the record 12 

### reviewed, please. 13 

### MS. STARKEY: Lois from MHI. Yes, I 14 

### would like to -– could we agree that we put it in 15 

### the parking lot, that whole issue? 16 

### I mean, you said that we're going to, you 17 

### know, leave it at -– but I'd just kind of like to 18 

### have it clear that –- I think I'd like to have 19 

### some discussions with my members, you know, 20 

### tonight maybe about how much, you know, they -- 21 

### what they think about it. Because I think 22277

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### they've been thinking along the lines of what 1 

### they do. And that’s a performance way of doing 2 

### things. And that means incremental costs 3 

### approach. 4 

### MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. 5 

### MS. STARKEY: So I think if we could 6 

### just, you know, put it in the parking lot for -– 7 

### and I think, as you say, as things -– as we move 8 

### forward I think that'll come clear, but -– 9 

### MR. RAMIREZ: So the approach for 10 

### analyzing the data? 11 

### MS. STARKEY: Yeah. 12 

### MR. RAMIREZ: Yeah. And again, if we get 13 

### bogged down, if we get bogged down on -- if at 14 

### some point we just get stuck, and then that’s 15 

### when we'll just have to come in and pull that 16 

### trigger. 17 

### Okay. So what else do we need to put up 18 

### here? And I’m saying what else –- I’m not saying 19 

### like, oh, my gosh, you guys missed something, 20 

### right? 21 

### But what I’m saying is, is there anything 22278

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### that we need to absolutely have on here in order 1 

### to get to this term sheet, or is this -– is this 2 

### the road map? 3 

### MR. LUBLINER: This is Mike Lubliner. 4 

### I’m wondering whether or not we need to be 5 

### looking beyond what the factory does. And as we 6 

### make these changes, what are the implications, if 7 

### any, for the installation manual or the retailer 8 

### that’s setting up the home? 9 

### And I don't know if that needs to be in 10 

### the parking lot but, you know, what we find in 11 

### the manufactured housing industry is there's a 12 

### chain of responsibility all the way to the 13 

### homeowner, who also has some responsibility for 14 

### operating their home. 15 

### And quite often the manufacturer can 16 

### build a great unit, nice tight duct work, good 17 

### envelope, commission ventilation, HVAC system, 18 

### and then the retailer is required to do things to 19 

### make sure that is successful, and -- using a 20 

### setup code for that, either a minimum HUD 21 

### mandated or state mandated code in accordance 22279

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### with the manufacturer’s installation manual. 1 

### And I’m just wondering, do folks feel 2 

### like that’s beyond the scope. And if so, let’s 3 

### state it, or should it be part of some discussion 4 

### either here or as we get into future discussions 5 

### or work groups that may get into enforcement? 6 

### MR. RAMIREZ: You’re saying to have an 7 

### owner’s manual, is that what you’re saying? 8 

### MS. HOFFMAN: I think he’s saying the 9 

### chain of responsibility after the manufactured 10 

### house leaves the -– leaves the factory, what 11 

### happens to it and what kind of care, et cetera. 12 

### It seems to me, just a thought, we could 13 

### put it in the parking lot and we can deal with 14 

### it -- we've got to deal with other things first. 15 

### But that would be my suggestion. 16 

### MR. HAGERMAN: This is Joe Hagerman. I 17 

### think it’s clearly beyond the current scope. And 18 

### that’s why I come back to that. If you want to 19 

### ask for permission to, you know, extend this 20 

### working group to -– to, you know, explore other 21 

### items, then make that recommendation to ASRAC. 22280

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### But they need to approve that before we continue. 1 

### I mean, we need to be focused on the 2 

### standard. That’s plenty -- plenty to do in our 3 

### remaining, you know, two meetings. 4 

### MR. LUBLINER: I would agree. I think at 5 

### a minimum in the parking lot, possibly could be 6 

### spun off if there is an initiative to go beyond 7 

### what happens in the factory. Because as I said, 8 

### one of the weak links in the chain, if it breaks, 9 

### we lose everything we've done in the code, or a 10 

### good chunk of the energy savings we're trying to 11 

### get. 12 

### I think you're absolutely right, Joe, we 13 

### need to prioritize the mission at hand. I just 14 

### didn’t want folks to forget about the importance 15 

### of good clarity and -– and installation practices 16 

### per the manufacturer's installation manual and 17 

### state or federal law. 18 

### MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. I put on there chain 19 

### of responsibility in the parking lot. 20 

### MR. LUBLINER: Thank you. 21 

### MR. RAMIREZ: All right. And then as 22281

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### long as we hit these points here, then we have 1 

### our term sheet. Correct? 2 

### All right. Then as far as tomorrow goes, 3 

### we're going to start off with Manny’s report on 4 

### 2015 IECC. And then we'll go into Emanuel’s Straw 5 

### Man’s – or Straw Boys, as he has prepared. 6 

### Are there any additional LCC runs that 7 

### you would like for Navigant to run? 8 

### Are there any different variables that 9 

### you would want to put in there to take a look at? 10 

### Because as we saw, the spreadsheet is fairly 11 

### dynamic. And it looks like we can get some pretty 12 

### quick turnarounds if you all wanted to look at 13 

### something different. 14 

### MR. ROY: I haven’t looked enough, but do 15 

### you have different window -– window area 16 

### definitions in the spreadsheet now? That would 17 

### be really very interesting. 18 

### MR. WALKER: From the LCC’s perspective, 19 

### the answer is no because it pulls in the energy 20 

### data developed by PN&L and the energy plus model. 21 

### And so the way to analyze what you’re talking 22282

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### about is to first get the energy data, attach 1 

### cost data to it. 2 

### MR. HAGERMAN: Well, we do have energy 3 

### data -– 4 

### MR. WALKER: That’s true. 5 

### MR. HAGERMAN: -- for the different, you 6 

### know, window to floor ratios, or window to wall 7 

### ratios, I forget the metric they used. So you 8 

### could pull from that data. You'd have to come up 9 

### with some costs, but you have the square foot 10 

### costs of windows. 11 

### MR. ROY: That’s in one of our documents 12 

### somewhere? 13 

### MR. HAGERMAN: That’s in -– yeah, we 14 

### circulated that. 15 

### MR. ROY: Okay, great. 16 

### MR. HAGERMAN: There’s a lot -- there's a 17 

### lot out there. And so there’s also -– I hate to 18 

### put Matthew on the spot here, but we also have 19 

### those other simulation runs, like the Kiss-Lubey 20 

### proposal, right? Do you remember that one? 21 

### That’s not currently in the LCC. 22283

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### I mean, I don't know if Matthew -– if you 1 

### have enough time to populate the LCC tonight with 2 

### that data and run some costs –- you know, make up 3 

### some cost number –- not make up, sorry -- take a 4 

### good guess at what the cost numbers would be for 5 

### those -– for those measures. We could at least 6 

### see that being populated with the window stuff as 7 

### well. 8 

### MR. WALKER: And this is Matthew. I'll 9 

### certainly take a look. I do remember from 10 

### looking at the energy models that the –- 11 

### MR. HAGERMAN: It’s pretty close. 12 

### MR. WALKER: -- Kiss-Lubey run is very, 13 

### very similar to some of the other codes, as 14 

### opposed to the larger incremental difference 15 

### between the different IECC’s. But we'll take a 16 

### look and see what we can do. 17 

### MR. HAGERMAN: I think it’s pretty 18 

### similar with the window ratios too, if I remember 19 

### correctly. There wasn’t a huge spread on the 20 

### annual energy consumption. 21 

### Do you remember, we went -- we modeled 22284

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### ten percent, twelve percent, and I think fourteen 1 

### percent. You can pull up those spreadsheets. 2 

### MR. RAMIREZ: All right. So if Matthew 3 

### is able -– Matthew, you don’t have anything else 4 

### to do tonight, right? 5 

### You would rather not do anything else, 6 

### right? 7 

### MS. HOFFMAN: He’s not on Robin’s 8 

### committee so –- 9 

### MR. RAMIREZ: All right. So if Matthew 10 

### is able to get that done by tomorrow then we 11 

### would look at any additional LCC runs. Navigant 12 

### will also have the term sheet, and so we'll take 13 

### a look at that, as well as any definitions. And 14 

### then the public comments and the next steps. 15 

### Okay. So then -- 16 

### MR. LEVY: Javier, I just want to -- I'm 17 

### sorry, it’s Emanuel. I just want to interject 18 

### one question for Matthew. 19 

### Matthew, could you share with us the 20 

### input assumptions you made with the runs, things 21 

### like orientation, internal loads, set points, 22285

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### those kinds of things? 1 

### MR. WALKER: I can –- I think I’m 2 

### understanding your question. It sounds like a lot 3 

### of those inputs would be described in PN&L’s 4 

### energy modeling assumptions document. 5 

### MR. HAGERMAN: So this is Joe Hagerman, 6


### DOE. 7 

### MR. LEVY: Do we have that? 8 

### MR. HAGERMAN: You have -– we circulated 9 

### the modeling document, I think maybe two days 10 

### after the last meeting. 11 

### MR. LEVY: Okay. Sorry. 12 

### MR. HAGERMAN: Maybe it was a Saturday or 13 

### Sunday, or maybe a Monday, something like that, 14 

### right after the meeting. And I’m pretty sure 15 

### that in that document it includes the set points. 16 

### I believe they used -– they specified the 17 

### Building America set points. And they give you a 18 

### reference to where those set points are located. 19 

### MR. LEVY: Okay. Thanks. 20 

### MR. RAMIREZ: All right. 21 

### MR. UNGAR: Yeah, to be kind to Matthew’s 22286

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### evening, it -- I’m sorry, this is Lowell. It 1 

### seems to me that for a lot of these -- I mean, 2 

### people seem to want the cost to populate the 3 

### actual cost data. And until then, doing –- I 4 

### mean, I think it will be very useful once we have 5 

### that. And until then it may not be so useful to 6 

### look at a lot of runs, you know, unless people 7 

### are willing to accept the Straw Man numbers that 8 

### are in there now, in which case we should by all 9 

### means look at it. 10 

### MR. RAMIREZ: That will be up for review 11 

### then, right? Not get bogged down on -– 12 

### MR. UNGAR: Yeah. I think to get those 13 

### and for people to review, you know, I say -– I 14 

### think there were some question about what the 15 

### assumptions were for the -– for Lubey’s Straw 16


### Man. 17 

### So to get those assumptions right and 18 

### make sure we are looking -– we agree on what the 19 

### data is, then it will be more useful to examine 20 

### it. 21 

### MR. RAMIREZ: All right. So you owe him a 22287

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### beer tonight so -– 1 

### MR. WALKER: Yeah. Thank you, Lowell. 2 

### MR. UNGAR: You’re welcome. 3 

### MR. HAGERMAN: So as Ed was pulling up 4 

### the additional runs of the Kiss-Lubey proposal, 5 

### they're not –- they are three KBTU’s per square 6 

### foot difference, right? I mean, it’s –- 7 

### MR. RAMIREZ: Yeah. So I think it’s more 8 

### important for -– 9 

### MR. HAGERMAN: It’s not huge. 10 

### MR. RAMIREZ: -- Lubey in particular to 11 

### look at the exact assumptions and make sure it is 12 

### in fact modeling his proposals. And then -– and 13 

### then have the right cost data. And then let’s 14 

### look at it. 15 

### MR. HAGERMAN: And Lubey is not shy, so 16 

### we've not heard any complaints thus far. 17 

### MR. RAMIREZ: Well, I did hear -– I think 18 

### he had to have -- I heard that he did have 19 

### concerns about it. 20 

### MR. HAGERMAN: Okay. 21 

### MR. RAMIREZ: But that may -- that may 22288

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### require discussion. But I think that needs to 1 

### happen soon so that we can trust that the 2 

### modeling is what we think it is. 3 

### MR. LUBLINER: This is Lubey, I think 4 

### we're pretty close –- I think we're pretty close. 5 

### The only question remaining was -– had to do with 6 

### the displacement of insulation from the tapering. 7 

### And the issue of whether or not the compression 8 

### of the floor insulation -- so that we’re not 9 

### forcing the manufacturer to go to a two by eight 10 

### floor. Those were the big remaining issues for 11



### me. 12 

### And Joe is right, I think it’s going to 13 

### come in pretty close to what has been analyzed on 14 

### other scenarios that we've seen. 15 

### I just want to make sure that the cost 16 

### assumptions are commiserate with this package. 17 

### And that the technical issues associated with 18 

### compression and height restrictions that have 19 

### been articulated are adequately addressed in the 20 

### U values. 21 

### And I think we're getting there. The 22289

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### only remaining questions are the ones that I left 1 

### for Dave regarding the compression issues. And I 2 

### think, from what I've seen, that PN&L has 3 

### accounted for those. And so I think we're pretty 4 

### close. 5 

### MR. RAMIREZ: All right. 6 

### MR. LUBLINER: I just need to know if -– 7 

### if it’s been accounted for. In other words, that 8 

### the tapering of insulation has been addressed in 9 

### the U values, because there's less insulation now 10 

### because of the tapering, that we're not paying 11 

### for that insulation in the cost side of things. 12 

### MR. HAGERMAN: Right, Michael. And this 13 

### is Joe Hagerman. Maybe the easiest way to 14 

### resolve this is I just have a phone call with 15 

### Mike Lubliner and the PN&L team to quickly answer 16 

### those questions. 17 

### MR. LUBLINER: That would be great. 18 

### Fantastic, Joe. Thank you very much. I will 19 

### take off. 20 

### MR. RAMIREZ: But to Lowell’s point then, 21 

### just to make sure that we're clear, I struck out 22290

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### the review of new LCC runs and additional 1 

### analysis for tomorrow because we need -– the team 2 

### is saying that we want some actual costs data, 3 

### some real cost data in order to have a serious 4 

### look at that. 5 

### Everyone on the same page there? 6 

### All right. Yeah, so that would be the -– 7 

### so there is the agenda for tomorrow. The times 8 

### obviously will vary a bit here because, you know, 9 

### we got through quite a bit today. 10 

### MR. HAGERMAN: And I don’t think you need 11 

### to go through the term sheet/structure 12 

### definitions of Navigant because your mine map 13 

### that you just put up there really covers that. 14 

### MS. HOFFMAN: I think you still think 15 

### sending out -– 16 

### MR. HAGERMAN: He is going to circulate 17 

### the document. I mean, it’s just an outline, it 18 

### doesn’t have any meat to it. It’s basically that 19 

### mine map up there. 20 

### MR. RAMIREZ: What about definitions, is 21 

### there anything under definitions? 22291

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### MR. HAGERMAN: It just says definitions. 1 

### MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. We need to make sure 2 

### we get them, right? 3 

### Okay. All right. Okay. Then anything 4 

### from public comment? 5 

### Do you have anything else? 6 

### MS. HOFFMAN: I think we can formally 7 

### adjourn for tonight -– for today. And we'll be 8 

### back here tomorrow at 9:00 a.m. I’m looking 9 

### forward to seeing you all. 10 

### And let me just ask folks on the line, it 11 

### sounded like the communication problems were -– 12 

### many of them were resolved. It was better -- 13 

### better reception. Are they all muted? 14 

### MR. HAGERMAN: I think we keep on having 15 

### a problem with Michael Wade -- 16 

### MS. HOFFMAN: Oh, okay. 17 

### MR. HAGERMAN: -- in Alabama, so – 18 

### MS. HOFFMAN: Okay. 19 

### MR. LUTER: This is Rob Luter. It’s been 20 

### much, much better, much less echo. There's still 21 

### been some episodes. 22292

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### MS. HOFFMAN: Thank you, Rob. 1 

### MR. LUBLINER: Ditto from Lubey. 2 

### MS. HOFFMAN: Yeah, we’ve heard you 3 

### Lubey, great, good. 4 

### MR. LUTER: Interestingly enough, you 5 

### know, Mike Lubliner on my end has been echoing 6 

### quite a bit. He isn’t right now, but earlier it 7 

### was pretty bad. 8 

### MS. DICKENS: This is Ishbel from 9 

### (unintelligible). I think this afternoon after 10 

### lunch, whatever people did over lunch has really 11 

### made a difference. There's been no echo at all 12 

### this afternoon. There certainly was this 13 

### morning. 14 

### And even this morning when some of the 15 

### participants in the room were talking, there was 16 

### one part where I couldn’t make out what Lois 17 

### Starkey was saying. And also I think Mark Weiss 18 

### who immediately followed her. And it was very 19 

### muffled and staticky. But it seemed much, much 20 

### better in the afternoon. 21 

### MS. HOFFMAN: We'll see what they ate for 22293

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### lunch. 1 

### MR. RAMIREZ: Yeah, I think everyone was 2 

### sleeping after lunch. All right. 3 

### MS. HOFFMAN: Well, thank you. And so we 4 

### will see you all tomorrow at 9:00 a.m. 5 

### Thank you. 6 

### (Proceedings adjourned at 4:01 p.m.) 7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22294

1 

### CERTIFICATE OF NOTARY PUBLIC

2 

### I, Brian Knieser, Notary Public in and

3 

### for the District of Columbia, the officer before

4 

### whom the foregoing testimony was taken, do hereby



### s certify that the testimony which appears in the

6 

### foregoing transcript was taken by me and

7 

### thereafter reduced to typewriting under my



### s direction; that said testimony is a true record

9 

### of the testimony given; that I am neither counsel

10 

### for, related to, nor employed by any of the

11 

### parties to the action in which this testimony is

12 

### taken; and, further, that I am not a relative or

13 

### employee of any of the parties hereto, nor

14 

### financially or otherwise interested in the

15 

### outcome of the action.

16

17

18 

### BRIAN KNIESER

19 

### Notary Public in and for

21 

### Commission Expires: The District of

### Colum~J,a'.'~~··~iZ~ ' ,-r.
... ... uf'

. 

## ,.,.,._ 

## ..·· ··.. 

# ,,-

.. ff

· >:>'/**oiA,~1- ·** •. \ 

### : :**~** 

### . ·.**~»** • { [I/· 031\4/2019 E

# * : l'

. •

. OLENDER REPORTING, INC.**",~··**•. t>UB\..\(,**./~/\** 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20

. . 

## 6-¥,··

..........**·· ~.l**  Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore:

### 410-752-337~··. " C'" Of

### tC~,,•••' Toll Free: 888-445-3376 ,.,,...,•• 

### 03.14.2019 20