### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 1 UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY + + + + + ENERGY EFFICIENCY AND RENEWABLE ENERGY BUILDING TECHNOLOGY PROGRAM

+ + + + +

NOTICE OF PROPOSED RULEMAKING PUBLIC MEETING FOR ALTERNATIVE EFFICIENCY DETERMINATION METHODS

+ + + + +

TUESDAY JUNE 5, 2012 + + + + + The Public Meeting convened, in

Room 8E-089, Department of Energy, Forrestal

Building, 1000 Independence Avenue SW,

Washington, D.C., at 9:00 a.m., Ashley

Armstrong, Department of Energy, Building

Technology Program, presiding.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 2 PRESENT ASHLEY ARMSTRONG, DOE, EERE, BTP, Facilitator KARIM AMRANE, PhD, Air-Conditioning, Heating, and Refrigeration Institute LAURA BARHYDT, DOE, Office of the General Counsel ALEX BOESENBERG, National Electrical Manufacturers Association DEBRA BRUNK, Navigant Consulting DAVID CASE, DOE, Office of General Counsel ADAM CHRISTENSEN, PhD, Appliance Standards Awareness Project ROGER H. DAUGHERTY, PhD, Baldor Electric PAUL L. DOPPEL, Mitsubishi Electric MARK FLY, AAON, Inc. MIKE GARST, Lennox International HELMUTH GLATT, Nidec Motor Corporation CHARLES HON, True Manufacturing Company JILL HOOTMAN, Trane JEFF KLEISS, Lochinvar, LLC REBECCA LEGETT, Navigant Consulting HARMON S. LEWIS, American Panel DICK LORD, Carrier Corporation KAREN B. MEYERS, Rheem Manufacturing Company MASSOUD NESHAN, Southern Store Fixtures, Inc DOUG RAWALD, DOE, Office of General Counsel CARL ROBERTS, Zero Zone Inc. HARVEY SACHS, PhD, American Council for an Energy-Efficient Economy FRANK STANONIK, Air-Conditioning, Heating, and Refrigeration Institute MIKE STRAUB, Heatcraft Refrigeration Products COREY TUCKER, Navigant Consulting JAMES VerSHAW, Ingersoll Rand ROBERT WILKINS, Danfoss

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 3 C-O-N-T-E-N-T-S Call to Order 5 Ashley Armstrong Department of Energy Introductions 6 Opening Remarks, Agenda Review 10 Ashley Armstrong Department of Energy Karim Amrane 11 AHRI

Harmon Lewis 12 American Panel Massoud Neshan 13 Southern Store Fixtures

Mark Fly 14 AAON Alex Boesenberg 15 NEMA

Mike Garst 16 Lennox International Dick Lord 16 Carrier

Harvey Sachs 17 ACEEE Carl Roberts 18 Zero Zone

Paul Doppel 18 Mitsubishi Craig Messmer 19 Unico

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 4 C-O-N-T-E-N-T-S (CONTINUED) Opening Remarks (Continued) Roger Daugherty 20 Baldor Electric Rulemaking Overview 23, 28, 51 and Definitions and Scope of Coverage Ashley Armstrong Department of Energy Questions and Comments 24, 29, 52 Substantiation Requirements 79, 101 Ashley Armstrong Department of Energy Questions and Comments 79, 103 Number of Testing Rounds 165 Ashley Armstrong Department of Energy Questions and Comments

DOE Validation 181, 183, 229 Ashley Armstrong 233, 236 Department of Energy Questions and Comments 182, 184, 231 233, 236

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 5 1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S

2 9:01 a.m. 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Good morning, 4 everyone. 5 My name is Ashley Armstrong, and I 6 would like to welcome you to our public 7 meeting to discuss the proposed rule on 8 alternative efficiency determination methods. 9 I would like to welcome everyone 10 that came in person on such short notice, as 11 well as all those attending by webinar on the 12 phone. 13 We are going to try something new 14 this time to open up the webinar line, so that 15 they can communicate with the people in the 16 room as well. So, for those of you on the 17 line, if you want to talk, please just raise 18 your hand. There is a way you can do it from 19 the webinar and then wait to be called on, and 20 we will unmute your line and you can speak 21 freely to the rest of us in the room. So, you 22 can participate in the meeting itself.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 6 1 Before we start, we are going to 2 go around the room and do introductions. 3 Please say your full name as well as your 4 company affiliation for the record. I ask 5 that each time you speak you do that as well, 6 and speak clearly into the microphone. 7 So, with that -- 8 MS. BARHYDT: I am Laura Barhydt. 9 I am with the U.S. Department of Energy, 10 Office of General Counsel. 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Ashley Armstrong, 12 Department of Energy. 13 MR. GARST: Mike Garst, Lennox 14 International. 15 MR. AMRANE: Karim Amrane, Air 16 Conditioning, Heating, and Refrigeration 17 Institute. 18 MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs, American 19 Council for an Energy Efficient Economy. 20 MR. VerSHAW: Jim VerShaw, 21 Ingersoll Rand, Trane Residential. 22 MS. HOOTMAN: Jill Hootman, Trane,

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 7 1 Ingersoll Rand. 2 MR. LEWIS: Harmon Lewis, American

3 Panel. 4 MR. WILKINS: Robert Wilkins,

5 Danfoss. 6 MR. FLY: Mark Fly, AAON 7 Incorporated. 8 MR. BOESENBERG: Alex Boesenberg, 9 National Electrical Manufacturers Association. 10 MR. GLATT: Helmuth Glatt, Nidec 11 Motor Corporation. 12 MR. ROBERTS: Carl Roberts, Zero

13 Zone. 14 MR. HON: Charlie Hon, True 15 Manufacturing. 16 MR. LORD: Dick Lord, Carrier. 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: And so, I also ask 18 the people in the back if you can make your 19 way to the sides, where there are microphones, 20 and introduce yourself with your name as well 21 and your company affiliation for the record, 22 please.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 8 1 MR. NESHAN: I am Massoud Neshan, 2 Southern Store Fixtures. 3 MR. ROY: Aniruddh Roy, AHRI. 4 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik,

5 AHRI. 6 MR. STRAUB: Mike Straub, 7 Heatcraft Refrigeration.

8 MR. CHRISTENSEN: Adam 9 Christensen, Appliance Standards Awareness 10 Project. 11 MR. DAUGHERTY: Roger Daugherty, 12 Baldor Electric, member of the ABB Group. 13 MR. RANSOM: David Ransom, 14 McDermott, Will and Emergy for Goodman. 15 MR. HOLT: John Holt, National 16 Rural Electric Cooperative Association. 17 MS. REAMER: Laura Reamer with 18 Regal-Beloit Corporation.19 MR. NOE: Gary Noe with Regal20 Beloit. 21 MS. LEGETT: Rebecca Legett, 22 Navigant Consulting.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 9 1 MR. HOYT: Bill Hoyt, National 2 Electrical Manufacturers Association. 3 MS. BRUNK: Debra Brunk, Navigant 4 Consulting. 5 MS. TUCKER: Corey Tucker, 6 Navigant Consulting. 7 MR. CASE: David Case, DOE, Office

8 of General Counsel. 9 MR. RAWALD: Doug Rawald, 10 Department of Energy, General Counsel. 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: All right. So, 12 the purpose of this public meeting is to 13 really gather feedback on the Department's 14 proposal, understand where there may be 15 issues, questions, or concerns. So, we really 16 encourage participation. 17 With that, we have a brief 18 presentation, but feel free to chime in 19 whenever you would like. 20 As you can tell, I am the 21 moderator for today as well as the presenter. 22 So, I am going to present from here, just to

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 10 1 make life easier, a little bit. 2 So, if you need to hold sidebar 3 conversations, please go outside. Bathrooms 4 are to the left. Coffee shop, all the way at

5 the bottom. 6 Just let us know when you want to 7 speak. Some of the ground rules: if you are 8 not speaking, I ask that you put your 9 microphone off because, that way, it minimizes 10 the feedback that we get from the microphones 11 all around the room and the webinar. 12 Here is a brief agenda review 13 before I open up. This is just what we plan 14 to talk about today. 15 Okay. So, the purpose of today's 16 meeting, as I said, is to really present the 17 notice, some of the key items in the proposal 18 as they relate to AEDMs, to provide a forum 19 for public discussion, encourage you guys to 20 submit all kinds of data as well as comments 21 on the Notice of Proposed Rulemaking, to help 22 better inform the Department's final rule, and

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 11 1 just to allow a forum for discussion. 2 So, at this time, I am going to go

3 ahead and welcome and turn the floor over to 4 opening remarks. Please say your name and 5 your company affiliation for the record, and 6 we will go around the room, as well as I will 7 open up the webinar lines if anybody wants to 8 make comments at the outset of the meeting. 9 Anybody? Sure, go ahead, Karim. 10 MR. AMRANE: My name is Karim 11 Amrane with the AHRI. Of course, we would 12 like to thank DOE for issuing this proposed 13 rule. It is well overdue. It is very 14 important for the manufacturers for air 15 conditioning, heating, water heating 16 equipment, refrigeration equipment as well. 17 I would like to raise an issue 18 that has not been addressed in the NOPR and 19 which has to do with the effective date by 20 which manufacturers of commercial equipment 21 will have to comply with the certification 22 requirements to the Department of Energy.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 12 1 As you all know, that date has 2 been set as January 1st, 2013. Honestly, even 3 if this is completed tomorrow, there is no way 4 that the manufacturers can comply with this 5 effective date. Many manufacturers don't have 6 AEDMs. We don't know yet what the 7 requirements of the AEDM would be. Of course, 8 we have the NOPR in front of us, but still 9 that rule has to be finalized. So, there is 10 no way in four months or six months that 11 manufacturers are going to be ready by January 12 1st, 2013. 13 So, AHRI would like to officially 14 request that the effective date of compliance 15 with certification reports to DOE be postponed 16 by at least 18 months from the date this AEDM 17 rulemaking is finalized. 18 Thank you.

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: Sure. 20 MR. LEWIS: Harmon Lewis with 21 American Panel. 22 I would like to second that

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 13 1 motion. 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Thank you. 3 Anybody else want to make opening 4 remarks at this time before we go into the 5 presentation? Sure. 6 MR. NESHAN: This is Massoud 7 Neshan with Southern Store Fixtures. 8 And thank you for setting up this 9 meeting. 10 We manufacture commercial 11 refrigerated equipment. We have been waiting 12 for over a year for a definition or 13 clarification from DOE to tell us what is the 14 definition of a basic model, since everything 15 is based on a basic model, and we have still 16 yet to hear a response from DOE. We are 17 talking about methodology to put into place; 18 whereas, we do not know what is the definition 19 of basic model. And that is extremely 20 critical for us for the purpose of testing or 21 modeling these basic models. 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. Thank you.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 14 1 Anybody else? Please feel free. 2 MR. FLY: Yes, Mark Fly with AAON. 3 Just following up on that, the 4 basic model definition is very important, 5 especially with my company, but I think to 6 everybody in this room. For example, our 7 complete model string has about 100 8 characters, and each one of those characters 9 has 25 options underneath it. So, the 10 combinations and permutations of all these 11 options can create thousands or millions or 12 trillions of different models, depending on 13 how you wanted to define a basic model. So, 14 we need some clear definition on what that is. 15 Many of these options will only 16 minorly affect the energy. It may be a 17 different kind of filter, which might affect 18 some of the fan energy in a minor way. Or it 19 might have an economizer or it might have a 20 heat recovery device that isn't really covered 21 in the testing standard, but will impose a 22 static pressure drop on the fan and cause an

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 15 1 energy increase. 2 So, if we are going to define a 3 basic model by any change in energy 4 consumption, that is going to generate so many 5 basic models that none of us can deal with it.

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Sure. 7 MR. BOESENBERG: Alex Boesenberg,

8 NEMA. 9 Like everybody else, I want to 10 thank the Department for having this meeting 11 today and for the draft. I am looking forward 12 to see how the webinar audio goes. Thank you 13 for trying that. We have had trouble in the 14 past and appreciate the efforts that DOE has 15 made, then, to repair that. 16 As to the short notice, we will 17 thank you in advance for giving us at least 30 18 days next time, not just to afford time in 19 schedules, but because of the expense of 20 airfare and hotels. Some people could not be 21 here today due to a 250 percent difference in 22 the price of a ticket bought on short notice.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 16 1 Thank you. 2 MR. GARST: And just to add to the 3 basic model issue, there is also product 4 class, and I think we need some clarification 5 on what a product class is. 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Anyone else before 7 we move to the presentation itself? Sure. 8 MR. LORD: Yes, Dick Lord with 9 Carrier. 10 One of the things that we have 11 kind of hinted at, but really haven't 12 addressed is there are products that really 13 aren't designed to run at standard rating 14 conditions. I will give you a good example. 15 You can put an energy recovery wheel on a 16 rooftop and actually save significant energy, 17 but when you rate it at the standard rating 18 point, it is actually going to show a little 19 lower efficiency, which really aren't 20 addressed by a lot of these procedures. So, 21 we have got to figure out how to do those and

22 how to handle them.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 17 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Go ahead. 2 MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs, ACEEE. 3 The new concern I would express is 4 how the information we are using for this will 5 play with other programs that will yield much 6 more information on performance for use by 7 designers, modelers, and others, such as the 8 recently-announced AHRI initiative for release 9 of supplemental information across product

10 classes. 11 And it would seem very worthwhile 12 for us to all be thinking about how the AEDM 13 and programs like this evolve together rather 14 than leading to duplicative effort without 15 giving any additional help to anyone who needs 16 to use the information. 17 Thank you. 18 One additional note. Harvey 19 Sachs. I am not saying AHRI is right.

20 Thanks. 21 Laughter.) 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Does anybody else

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 18 1 wish to make opening remarks at this time?

2 Sure. 3 MR. ROBERTS: Carl Roberts, Zero

4 Zone. 5 We do appreciate this move. It is 6 a big step in the right direction. I just 7 wanted to mention or keep in mind that the 95 8 percent confidence interval one-tailed T-value 9 wasn't taken into account at the time the 10 standard energy levels were set. So, what 11 this is doing is raising the bar. 12 Thank you. 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Anyone else? Last

14 call. Sure. 15 MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel with 16 Mitsubishi. 17 I also want to support Karim's 18 suggestion that we have 18 months before 19 implementation effective date. 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Thank you. 21 All right. Moving along, so what 22 are AEDMs? They are basically computer

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 19 1 simulations, mathematical tools, modeling, 2 engineering simulations that are used to 3 predict the performance of non-tested basic

4 models. Use of AEDMs allows manufacturers to 5 rate and certify their performance of their 6 equipment without actual testing, once the 7 simulated energy use or efficiency results are 8 derived, as well as we believe it may reduce 9 testing burden because there is only a subset 10 of the whole model offering that would have to

11 be tested. 12 So, Craig Messmer also would like 13 to say something at this point. 14 MR. MESSMER: Good morning, 15 everybody. Sorry I couldn't be there. Thank 16 you, Ashley. 17 This is Craig Messmer with Unico. 18 We are classified as an ICM, and 19 we noticed that the ARM has seemingly been 20 deleted from the regulations. We don't really 21 have a problem with that. We are wondering 22 why the ARMs for specific products, especially

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 20 1 ICMs has been removed. We thought the AEDMs 2 were primarily for other products than 3 commercial. So, anyway, that is more of a 4 question, but very much of a concern. 5 Thank you. 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. Thank you. 7 We will get to answering, I think, 8 some of those in a little bit. But, as they 9 come up, if you have additional questions, 10 Craig, just let us know. 11 So, just to set the stage with 12 some background -- go ahead. 13 MR. DAUGHERTY: Roger Daugherty, 14 Baldor Electric. 15 Back on your definition of AEDM, I 16 also notice that inside the NOPR you stated 17 that you referred to an AEDM since it could be 18 used to simulate testing under DOE test 19 conditions. Is that some other type of AEDM 20 other than that which you have defined that 21 can also be used? And what is the intent of 22 that meaning? That is on page 32041 in The

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 21 1 Federal Register publication. 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. So, I am 3 not quite sure exactly what you are referring 4 to. I have 41 open here, and I am happy to 5 take this conversation a bit offline. 6 But the definition generally in 7 the back, in the actual regulatory text just 8 is a general definition and describes any type 9 of calculation or algorithm, engineering 10 algorithm, that predicts the efficiency as 11 measured by the descriptor in DOE's 12 regulation. So, it doesn't specifically talk 13 about, at least in the regulatory text, it 14 doesn't specifically talk about test procedure 15 conditions. 16 That being said, if you had an 17 AEDM that would simulate use over a wide 18 variety of conditions, I mean, it doesn't 19 preclude that, if that is what you are asking. 20 MR. DAUGHERTY: Roger Daugherty. 21 I guess what I am trying to get at 22 is I understand what my AEDM and its method of

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 22 1 calculating losses in electric motors, in 2 small electric motors, to determine 3 efficiency. But I was trying to figure out 4 why DOE seems to be relating it to the way 5 that motor would be tested; whereas, that 6 doesn't take into account that I am using an 7 IEEE 112 test method to determine losses. It 8 is totally different. So, I was just trying 9 to get clarification on what you mean by this, 10 or if it is not intended to be stated the way 11 it is in the NOPR. 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: This is Ashley

13 from DOE. 14 And other manufacturers in the 15 room may speak up as they wish. It is meant 16 to predict the efficiency that you would also 17 get from testing. That being said, if you 18 implement an engineering equation or an 19 algorithm, obviously, that may be different 20 than the actual testing. However, it is meant 21 to get results that are comparable to those 22 that you would get under the actual DOE test

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 23 1 method.

2 Does that make sense? Does that 3 help? Okay. Thank you. 4 Okay. So, just to set the stage 5 with some background, currently, DOE's 6 regulations permit the use of the AEDMs for 7 commercial HVAC equipment, commercial water 8 heating equipment, distribution transformers, 9 as well as electric motors. In addition, as 10 noted earlier in the presentation, 11 manufacturers of central air conditioners and 12 heat pumps are allowed to use ARMs to rate 13 their equipment currently. 14 So, DOE issued a Request for 15 Information a while back, a little over a year 16 ago, about other types of equipment that may 17 be similar that could benefit from the use of 18 AEDM regulations as well as what procedural 19 changes the Department could consider for 20 their AEDM regulations, including tolerances. 21 We sought comment on a variety of 22 issues. Some of those topics are, then,

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 24 1 addressed in this proposed rule. 2 All right. The proposal. So, 3 just on its face, naming conventions, DOE is 4 proposing to marry the terms "ARM" and "AEDM" 5 and just use one single naming convention 6 across the board for simulation methods. We 7 are proposing to use the term AEDM. So, 8 therefore, to Craig's point earlier, we are 9 proposing to get rid of the term "ARM," 10 although we are proposing to allow the use of 11 simulation methods still for central air 12 conditioners and heat pumps, just to clarify 13 that. Okay? 14 MR. AMRANE: I guess I have a 15 question. Are you now requiring the old ARM 16 to be consistent with the requirements that we 17 have in this proposed rule?

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. 19 MR. AMRANE: Okay. So, 20 manufacturers that have ARMs today don't have 21 to revalidate their ARMs based on this 22 proposed rule?

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 25 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Upon the 2 compliance date of the new provisions, the 3 ARMs in use to date would have to meet the 4 provisions as they are written here. 5 MR. AMRANE: Okay. Then, we have 6 a problem as well because those residential 7 central ACs have to comply today with the DOE 8 requirements. And today they are not using 9 exactly what is proposed in this rule. So, 10 are you going to provide any time for those 11 manufacturers to have time to comply with the

12 new one?

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Sure. DOE would 14 consider a compliance date. It would be very 15 helpful if we could hear what a necessary 16 timeframe might be and why. 17 MR. AMRANE: Well, the time 18 necessary to revalidate, to develop a new

19 AEDM. 20 (Laughter.) 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: This is Ashley. 22 So, I think we understand why. It

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 26 1 is a matter of what that magnitude should be,

2 the number. 3 MS. MEYERS: Ashley, this is Karen 4 with Rheem. 5 So, just so I understand, we have 6 now expanded the scope of this rule to include 7 all residential air conditioning and heat pump 8 systems? Is that what we were saying here?

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct.

10 MS. MEYERS: Wow.

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes? 12 MR. LORD: Just to kind of 13 reconfirm what I think you told Karim, 14 basically, we have an ARM that is all 15 qualified today. We are going to have to get 16 all new units, retest all those units -- 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Go ahead, finish. 18 (Laughter.) 19 MR. LORD: That's enough. You are 20 getting my drift. 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. So, the 22 answer is possibly. So, it depends on what

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 27 1 your ARM is based on. If you have an ARM 2 today that meets the criteria as written -- 3 so, you have tested a unit from each product 4 class. You have tested no less than five 5 basic models, one of the lowest capacity, one 6 of a capacity in the highest 25 percent, if 7 you have basically done that and you have 8 tested ones that are compliant with the 9 current standards and current test procedures, 10 then you are good to go, I mean assuming that 11 these get adopted and the tolerances as well, 12 assuming these get adopted as final as they 13 are proposed. 14 But that being said, if not, and 15 you need to make minor tweaks, then you are 16 going to need to make minor tweaks. It might 17 require more than minor tweaks. 18 And to Karim's point, if it does 19 require major changes, we are interested in 20 knowing what a reasonable compliance date 21 should be for the Department to consider. 22 MR. LORD: So, maybe to just

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 28 1 restate it, say we had three units that were 2 already tested that we could use.

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Uh-huh. 4 MR. LORD: And we just show that 5 data, maybe add two more units? 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. So, that is 7 a great segue to this next slide. 8 DOE is proposing no preapproval.

9 You don't even have to show that data. You 10 just maintain the records. And, yes, if you 11 had three, you would just test two more, 12 assuming that that is the minimum set of 13 criteria that need to be met. But, yes, you 14 would be fine. 15 So, DOE is not proposing to add a 16 preapproval process for AEDMs. This is 17 currently, for those that have AEDMs, this is 18 currently how the regulations go for AEDMs 19 now. For ARMs, it is a change. We would not 20 require any kind of notification to the 21 Department. You would just, when you certify 22 your products, you would have to state that

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 29 1 you used an AEDM to rate those untested 2 combinations. 3 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik with

4 AHRI. 5 Ashley, residential AC 6 manufacturers have used ARMs for 10, 15, 20 7 years. Is there anything procedurally that 8 prohibits DOE from essentially grandfathering 9 those methods and just saying that, without 10 meeting the letter of whatever the AEDM 11 criteria come out to be -- there is a long 12 history of testing and compliance. Can't they 13 just be grandfathered? 14 MS. BARHYDT: This is Laura 15 Barhydt at DOE. 16 This isn't exactly in answer to 17 your question, but I will say that we are 18 concerned that some of the ARMs currently in 19 use were granted, were approved a very long 20 time ago. And we are concerned about the 21 validity of the test data that they are based

22 on.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 30 1 And so, part of the idea here is 2 to get everybody onto a level footing where 3 the ratings are all being based on a similar 4 methodology to make sure that everyone's 5 ratings are in accordance with the current 6 standards and test procedure. 7 MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs, ACEEE. 8 I am not asking this judgmentally, 9 but my inference from this slide No. 12 is 10 that the AEDM is fundamentally a simulation of 11 equipment performance, and the Department will 12 treat this as a black box for which the 13 manufacturer confirms or asserts compliance 14 with test data. But the underlying algorithms 15 will not be seen by the DOE, the public, 16 competitors, or anyone else. 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, that is 18 correct. That is the proposal as written. 19 MR. SACHS: Thank you, I think. 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, that being 21 said, I will say that part of the proposal is 22 that records be maintained and, upon request

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 31 1 from the Department, all of that information 2 would be made available to the Department, if 3 we had a reason to request such information. 4 MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs again. 5 My concern, Ashley, is that this 6 works fine with long-established, legitimate 7 manufacturers, but I think that in some other 8 industries we have seen this kind of thing 9 used as a loophole generator to do, shall we 10 say, a shady batch of code, and when finally 11 challenged, just drop the certification of the 12 non-complying models, climb into a hole, or go 13 bankrupt. 14 So, my concern is whether this 15 will actually lead to a level playing field 16 among all the manufacturers without imposing 17 even greater burdens to entry than we have 18 now. I don't know the answer, but I think it 19 is a question that does matter. 20 MR. GLATT: Helmuth Glatt, Nidec 21 Motor Corporation. 22 We are kind of on the opposite

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 32 1 side of that. We love our AEDM, and we don't 2 want to share the source code of it with 3 anybody. So, treating it as a black box needs 4 to be highly emphasized at this point. 5 So, by underlying records, that 6 definition is basically correlation between 7 test data and the AEDM output? 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, I would say 9 we are going to get to part of that. But, 10 yes, I mean, it is any test data used to 11 substantiate your AEDM, any subsequent 12 verification that you may do just on your own, 13 anything that supports how you came about with 14 your AEDM. All those records you would 15 maintain. And then, if we ever got into a 16 situation, I think, where we needed to discuss 17 those records with you, we could talk about 18 more details as to what exactly the Department 19 wanted to see and stuff like that. 20 But I would maintain it all in 21 terms of what you have rated with your AEDM, 22 what you used to substantiate your AEDM, all

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 33 1 the testing underlying that, et cetera. 2 MR. VerSHAW: Jim VerShaw, 3 Ingersoll Rand. 4 Two questions. The first one is, 5 when looking at residential ARMs, today we 6 have to have testing on the basic model with 7 the highest sales volume combination. When 8 you go to an AEDM under the definition, do we 9 no longer have to do that testing? We just 10 simulate everything? 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, simulate 12 everything is not quite right. You do have to 13 do some testing. There is a different subset 14 of testing that has to be done. It is not 15 necessarily the highest sales volume 16 combination for each basic model.

17 MR. VerSHAW: You had to do so 18 much testing to substantiate the AEDM. Once 19 that is substantiated, then, are you 20 eliminating the requirement to have the 21 highest sales volume test combinations tested?

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 34 1 MR. VerSHAW: Okay. 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Are you advocating 3 that we retain it? 4 MR. VerSHAW: No, I am just trying 5 to get clarification. I haven't thought it 6 all the way through yet. 7 The second question is, with this 8 setup where you don't prequalify/preapprove 9 simulation methods, and now I see you 10 eliminate the need for a lot of testing 11 ongoing, are you planning on setting up a much 12 more robust or aggressive enforcement plan to 13 do a lot of testing by DOE outside of maybe 14 other industry groups? Or is that driving 15 that? Or if you did preapproval, would that 16 reduce the need to do that ongoing testing by 17 DOE? And maybe I am looking at spending and 18 cost and duplicate programs and everything. 19 It raises some questions in that area. 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't think 21 there is any specific intention to increase 22 testing or decrease testing in terms of

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 35 1 verification and enforcement one way or the 2 other that is driving these proposals. 3 I think the majority of the 4 comments that we got in response to the RFI 5 kind of pushed for the balance between getting 6 approval quicker for ARMs and AEDMs generally 7 versus, you know, manufacturers assuming the 8 responsibility to make sure their AEDMs and 9 ARMs are in accordance with our regulations 10 and maintaining that data and DOE getting it 11 upon request. 12 I mean, as you can tell, we are 13 expanding -- it is on the next slide -- but we 14 are expanding the scope of ARMs and AEDMs 15 quite a bit here. So, to say that we were 16 going to, then, preapprove all of them would 17 be quite an increase, not only in DOE 18 reviewing them, but the information that 19 manufacturers would have to submit. 20 So, we were more concerned, I 21 think, with the comments that were worried 22 about the delay in getting an approved

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 36 1 simulation. We have also proposed more 2 reoccurring means by which testing has to 3 occur. If the models used to substantiate 4 aren't tested with the new test procedures 5 each time they are amended or don't meet new 6 standards, they also have to be 7 resubstantiated. So, those types of things. 8 MR. VerSHAW: All right. 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. So, we had 10 a question come in on the line. It said, 11 "What would the basic model definition be for 12 mixed systems and ICMs?" This is for Craig

13 Messmer. 14 So, I mean, I think for the 15 context for the AEDMs, and I realize that the 16 basic model definition and the testing and the 17 certification is a little mixed, but I don't 18 think the basic model definition changes with 19 respect to the AEDM itself. It is just the 20 AEDM allows for a wider applicability of 21 simulating the results of each combination 22 that may be a basic model rather than actually

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 37 1 testing it. 2 MR. FLY: Yes, Ashley, kind of 3 related to the point, and I think this is an 4 error -- I hope it is an error -- but in The 5 Federal Register, on 32055, toward the bottom 6 of the last column, it would be 429.7(C)(2), 7 you stated that the "test of at least one unit 8 of each basic model to which the AEDM is 9 applied in accordance with the applicable 10 provisions". I am hoping that it was supposed 11 to have been one unit of each class, not each 12 basic model, because that kind of infers that 13 we are going to have to test every basic model 14 to validate our AEDM, which would kind of 15 negate the whole idea of an AEDM. 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: You're correct, it 17 is product class. Sorry. Thank you. That is 18 a good one. 19 MR. LORD: Ashley, along with 20 that, it would be good to put a definition 21 someplace on what a product class is. 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, that is one

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 38 1 of the issues for which we sought additional 2 comment. We will get to that, as to what type 3 of information or what direction you all may 4 need as to what exactly a product class is as 5 it may relate, since you are testing one basic 6 model from each product class with certain 7 characteristics, correct. 8 MR. AMRANE: If I may, Karim

9 Amrane. 10 I guess there are certain 11 products, like commercial refrigeration, where 12 you have maybe over 20 product classes today. 13 So, you are going to be asking manufacturers 14 of commercial refrigeration to test for all 15 those product classes? I mean, I think that 16 you need to maybe look at product-by-product 17 category and see in this particular case, and 18 see what the burden is going to be. 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, as drafted, 20 that is the intention, that the manufacturers 21 of commercial refrigeration equipment, even if 22 they have upwards of 30 equipment classes,

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 39 1 would have to test one from each. 2 That being said, if there is a 3 way, if there are models that may be similar 4 or if there is a way to pare those down, or if 5 you have specific ideas of how that could be 6 different, or maybe that is reasonable because 7 it is only 30 models versus 300, or something, 8 I don't know, you know, please feel free to 9 speak freely. There are different rating 10 conditions or different configurations. So, I 11 encourage you to please speak up to that. 12 MR. NESHAN: Massoud Neshan, 13 Southern Store Fixtures. 14 In a way, you have already defined 15 those classes in the different energy level 16 that is allowed for each category or each of 17 equipment. I don't know why you want to go 18 beyond that, since you have defined it. You19 have been working on that for the past five20 six years, to define those classes, and now 21 you are talking about additional ones? And 22 now, also, not only you have defined these

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 40 1 classes, but one thing you haven't defined is 2 the basic model. It still is an issue with 3 not defining basic model. 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. One second. 5 Just to your point, the equipment classes are 6 going to be the same as the ones that are 7 defined by the standards. So, for commercial 8 refrigeration, the ones that are common that 9 you know about, that are in the standard 10 rulemaking -- there are 30-some of them, I 11 believe -- those are the same ones we are 12 talking about here. It is less obvious for 13 some of the other products that we are talking 14 about here, specifically for the ASHRAE table 15 that make things a little more complicated as 16 to what an equipment class actually is. 17 But let me go over here just for 18 commercial refrigeration, and then I am going 19 to go back there. 20 MR. HON: Charlie Hon, True 21 Manufacturing. 22 Unfortunately, the classifications

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 41 1 have secondary nuances built into them to make 2 them totally different, and you will end up 3 with well in excess of 100 models in some of 4 our manufacturing facilities. So, that is 5 really a large amount of testing that we have 6 already taken most of it and it is done. So, 7 now we are redefining it again way late in the 8 game, because these models should have been 9 tested a year ago to meet the standard which 10 was in effect. 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, can I ask you 12 a question? Do you advocate retaining the 13 requirements to test each equipment class, 14 test at least one basic model from each 15 equipment class? 16 MR. HON: We should have already 17 done that years ago. 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, your point of 19 view would be that manufacturers should 20 already have that data? They could just use 21 that data, then, for the AEDM?

22 MR. HON: Yes.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 42 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: But it is not an 2 increase in testing burden? 3 MR. HON: It is not an increase in 4 testing burden, but it gives an advantage to 5 those who haven't done their homework and are 6 not up-to-date. Since we have no reporting 7 requirements, they are still not reported;

8 those who have cheated on the standard are 9 going to get a payback on their lack of

10 effort. 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. Thank you. 12 MR. KLEISS: Jeff Kleiss, 13 Lochinvar and A.O. Smith. 14 The term "product class" may be 15 something that is well-known, I guess, within 16 the ARMs, but as boilers and water heaters, I 17 am not familiar with that term. Could you 18 please define or characterize what that means 19 or represents? 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, I don't think 21 we have a specific definition, and perhaps 22 that is something we need to consider. If you

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 43 1 look in the standards tables, there are 2 specific different energy conservation 3 standards for different product losses. So, I 4 will give you an example. 5 For water heaters, it is electric 6 storage versus gas storage versus oil storage 7 versus electric instantaneous versus gas 8 instantaneous. So, those are the five product

9 classes for water heaters. 10 MR. KLEISS: Okay. 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, they are 12 pretty aggregate levels. Usually, they are 13 either defined by capacity-related features or 14 fuel types or any other attributes that affect 15 the energy performance. We usually define 16 them through our standards rulemaking 17 processes. 18 So, if you look in our standards 19 tables, that speaks to our product classes, 20 but I hear the need and we kind of foresaw the 21 need to, yes. Okay.

22 Sure.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 44 1 MR. FLY: I just want to clarify 2 that just a little bit. So, are you saying 3 that a product class is any group of equipment 4 for which a minimum federal standard exists, a 5 unique minimum federal standard exists?

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. 7 MS. HOOTMAN: Jill Hootman, Trane. 8 So, to further that explanation, 9 the ASHRAE table would be for commercial HVAC 10 below 65,000 btu's, 65 to 135, air-cooled, 11 obviously --

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct. 13 MS. HOOTMAN: One thirty-five to 14 240, 240 to 63 tons.

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct.

16 MS. HOOTMAN: Is that correct? 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: That is correct. 18 And then, depending on the type of heating -- 19 MS. HOOTMAN: Right.

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- the .2 21 difference. 22 MS. HOOTMAN: Right.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 45 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: And then, ACs and 2 heat pumps are different. 3 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. And then,

4 the water-cooled --5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Air-cooled, water6 cooled, evap, yes. 7 MS. HOOTMAN: And then, 65,000 and 8 below, single-phase and three-phase? 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct, because 10 one is residential; one is in commercial. 11 MS. HOOTMAN: Okay. 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, ma'am.

13 MS. HOOTMAN: Thanks. 14 MR. DAUGHERTY: Roger Daugherty, 15 Baldor Electric. 16 You are getting me a little bit 17 confused here between basic models, product 18 classes, and now you are using a term called 19 "equipment classes". We have been using basic 20 models for electric motors since the final 21 rule was published in 1999. It has been very 22 workable. It has been a very good definition

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 46 1 of basic model, and it has been used to 2 substantiate our AEDMs with a well-defined 3 process of doing so in Part 431. 4 However, if you switch over to 5 product classes, then during the rulemaking 6 process for small electric motors recently, 7 for the eight power ratings of those motors, 8 you came up with 72 product classes. 9 Then, during the present 10 rulemaking that is going on right now with 11 respect to electric motors, then you broke 12 those and you said that there were basically 13 four product classes, and then you introduced 14 something called 10 representative product

15 classes. 16 However, if you went back to the 17 same type of definition that you used in the 18 small electric motor rulemaking, that comes to 19 roughly 24,014 product classes for electric 20 motors. The test time to do that exceeds 185 21 years of testing to cover those product

22 classes.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 47 1 So, our problem with electric 2 motors and small electric motors there has 3 never been a clear definition of what a 4 product class is. If you look at electric 5 motors, all the electric motors are polyphase 6 squirrel-cage induction motors. No 7 difference, whether it is a 1 horsepower or 8 500 horsepower, whatever; they are all basic, 9 you might say they are basically the same. 10 They are just a different size. 11 If that was a product class, you 12 would be telling me I test one motor from 1 to 13 500 horsepower out of that product class. Our 14 present requirement is to test five different 15 designs because of the definition of basic 16 model. And that is why I say basic model for 17 electric motors and small electric motors is a 18 very workable definition, and we would not 19 like to see a change from that over the 20 product classes. 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. 22 MR. LORD: Yes, just to follow up,

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 48 1 you kind of quickly said on rooftops and 2 packaged units that the two-tenths for other 3 heat would be another product class? 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Confirmed, yes. 5 It is a different level, right? 6 MR. LORD: But it is very 7 mathematically-predictable. 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, that could be

9 a comment. 10 MR. LORD: Yes, we can provide a 11 comment. We will. 12 (Laughter.) 13 MR. KLEISS: Jeff Kleiss with 14 Lochinvar and A.O. Smith again. 15 This goes back to the scope of 16 coverage.

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Uh-huh. 18 MR. KLEISS: Currently, 19 residential air conditioning, heat pump units 20 are covered by AEDMs and ARMs. Has it been 21 considered adding those to residential water 22 heaters, residential boilers? If not, is

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 49 1 there a reason why not? 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. So, I am 3 going to table that for just one second. 4 MR. KLEISS: Okay. 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: And I will go

6 back. 7 So, any other comments before we 8 move on to scope of applicability on 9 preapproval? Just whether the Department 10 should or shouldn't review and preapprove 11 AEDMs before they are allowed use. Is there 12 general support for preapproval? Is there 13 general support for no preapproval? 14 MR. GARST: I would say -- Mike 15 Garst with Lennox -- I think we would support 16 no preapproval. The only concern we would 17 have is if someone new comes in the market, 18 that DOE has some way to at least do some 19 assessment testing, so that they don't get in 20 the market a long time, if they have got a 21 problem. 22 MR. LORD: Yes, Dick Lord,

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 50 1 Carrier. 2 Yes, we support no preapproval, 3 and you stated it somewhat in the document, is 4 define exactly what has to be documented. So, 5 it is very clear to a newcomer what he has to

6 do. 7 MR. ROBERTS: Carl Roberts, Zero

8 Zone. 9 Eliminating preapproval is a good 10 and necessary proposal to make compliance 11 practical. 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Anyone else? 13 MR. AMRANE: Karim Amrane, AHRI. 14 I think we would support that as

15 well. And I am not even sure the DOE has the 16 capabilities of approving all the AEDMs. 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: You have so little 18 faith in me. 19 (Laughter.) 20 MR. VerSHAW: Ingersoll Rand can 21 support no preapproval. 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. Thank you.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 51 1 Okay. Back to the topic of 2 applicability, so we have proposed it to 3 expand the use of AEDMs to other types. This 4 includes commercial refrigeration equipment, 5 automatic icemakers, small electric motors, 6 beverage vending machines, walk-in cooler and 7 freezer ( refrigeration systems only), and 8 then, continue the use for commercial HVAC and 9 water heating equipment, distribution 10 transformers, electric motors, including small 11 electric motors, as well as CACs, central air 12 conditioners and heat pumps. 13 So, to answer your question in the 14 back about did we consider expanding to other 15 types of residential equipment, you know, when 16 we issued the RFI and received comments, the 17 Department mainly got comments about the need18 for AEDMs to rate custom-built, low-volume19 type equipment. And I guess from the 20 Department's perspective, and we would like to 21 hear comments on that, as to how residential 22 water heaters and residential maybe boilers

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 52 1 fall into that custom-built, made-to-order 2 type of classification or characterization, if 3 we should consider, and why we should 4 consider. 5 You guys are already testing and 6 rating and certifying your equipment now. So, 7 I ask what you do now to get the ratings. Do 8 you test currently all those? 9 So, I will open the floor at this 10 point. 11 MR. AMRANE: Karim Amrane, AHRI. 12 We did submit comments to DOE 13 asking, did you expand the AEDM coverage to 14 other residential products? Yes, 15 manufacturers today do test. But, again, we 16 are talking about reducing the burden of 17 testing. So, an AEDM would be helpful to

18 those manufacturers as well. 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: Can you turn your 20 microphone on? 21 MR. STANONIK: Yes, I got it.

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Thanks.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 53 1 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik,

2 AHRI. 3 Ashley, one specific point that 4 actually has kind of gotten lost here in the 5 NOPR is that, in the case of residential 6 boilers, one subclass of products has 7 something akin to an AEDM and the other 8 doesn't. And specifically, the rule has 9 always allowed cast-iron sectionals to do 10 something like an AEDM. 11 And we would certainly suggest 12 that, at least in the case of residential 13 boilers, make it equal for all boilers and 14 allow them all to have that option. In the 15 case of boilers, you are dealing with a market 16 that on an annual basis is probably in the 17 200,000s. Maybe in a good year it was 18 300,000, but a large number of models. 19 We can talk water heaters; it is 20 totally different. You are talking about a 21 market of 9-10 million units. In the case of 22 boilers, you don't have that magnitude of

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 54 1 sales. And yet, you have a 2 disproportionately-large number of models. 3 And so, while they may not be made to order, 4 they certainly don't have anywhere near, let's 5 say, the number of sales per specific model. 6 And so, it is kind of a unique situation for 7 residential boilers. 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Go ahead, Harvey. 9 MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs, ACEEE. 10 Ashley, the concern with the 11 contrast between real production-line products 12 and things with a large degree of 13 customization is an important one. I am glad 14 to see it reflected. 15 On the other hand, if an AEDM's 16 underlying algorithm is robust and sound, then 17 even for things which we think of as large 18 production volumes, the opportunity to use it 19 reduces the burden of innovation. It makes it 20 more likely that a manufacturer might respond 21 to a potential market, for example, for a very 22 small central air conditioner for a very well-

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 55 1 insulated house. 2 And here, we have that balance 3 between not knowing how the AEDM will 4 extrapolate versus wanting to encourage that 5 kind of innovation. I think it is a pretty 6 serious question, but we should not 7 automatically exclude new products from 8 classes that we typically think of as being 9 large-scale production. 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, this is 11 definitely something we have sought comment 12 on, including the proposed scope of 13 applicability. So, if there is a wider net 14 that needs to be considered, we welcome 15 comments on that. I think the majority of the 16 comments that we have received so far have 17 surrounded the idea of the low-volume custom 18 order. That being said, we are open. 19 And Frank, to your point about 20 boilers, I mean, there is no change for the 21 existing test procedure linear interpolation 22 for the certain types of boilers, obviously.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 56 1 That is inherent within the test procedure, 2 and that is the same as we have in certain 3 types of -- other types of commercial 4 applications also have inherent extrapolation 5 or estimation-type methods. Those still 6 remain intact, even with this rule. 7 Okay. So, we have a bunch of 8 questions here. One question is, what is the 9 difference between an equipment class and a 10 product class? And I apologize. That is 11 probably myself mixing up the terms. 12 We use covered product for 13 residential products, covered equipment for 14 commercial products, product class for 15 residential, equipment class for commercial. 16 The terms are synonymous in their meanings. 17 One is just the residential market, and one is 18 just the commercial market. It is just a DOE 19 terminology thing. So, I apologize for 20 causing confusion there. 21 Okay. So, this one is just a 22 comment, not a question.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 57 1 "Under the current mixed/matched 2 AC/heat pump split system ARM rating rules for 3 ICMs, the ICM using an ARM must simulate its 4 rating based on the matched system's highest 5 sales volume tested combination rating. For 6 each matched system, basic model may under 7 your proposal no longer need to be tested. It 8 is wise to be doing a computer simulation on 9 someone else's computer simulation" -- I am 10 not sure exactly what the last one is, but 11 that is what it says. 12 So, Mr. Craig has a question 13 regarding, "Why are AEDMs not available for14 walk-in cooler enclosures?" If you mean walk15 in coolers, the whole box, our test method 16 recently promulgated for walk-in coolers and 17 freezers is a test method based on components. 18 There is a different test for the panel. 19 There is a different test for the 20 refrigeration system. There is a different

21 test for the doors. 22 So, what we have tried to do here

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 58 1 is allow the simulation, and we explained why 2 we didn't allow it for other components in the 3 actual NOPR, but allow the simulation for the 4 refrigeration system, which we feel was the 5 most necessary. 6 Any other comments or questions on 7 applicability at this point? Please. 8 MR. DAUGHERTY: Roger Daugherty, 9 Baldor Electric. 10 With regard to the small electric 11 motors, the AEDM was actually added to Part 12 431 by the final rule of July 7th, 2009. That 13 final rule added the sampling procedure to 14 select your basic models, to substantiate the 15 AEDM, and how you compare it against test data 16 to substantiate the AEDM. 17 One problem is that this NOPR

18 deletes that AEDM from Part 431 and does not 19 add any information to Part 429 covering small 20 electric motors. So, now we are left with we 21 had an AEDM, now it has gone away. Yet, in 22 429.70, you do apply requirements for the AEDM

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 59 1 on tolerances and average tolerances, but you 2 will find there is no section that describes 3 how to substantiate the AEDM for small 4 electric motors, since you have eliminated it

5 from Part 431. 6 I might also note that I assume it 7 is an oversight, but throughout the NOPR you 8 refer to the commercial equipment and other 9 type of equipment. Small electric motors and 10 electric motors are classified as industrial 11 equipment, which is part of the title of Part 12 431. So, I am assuming your references to 13 commercial may also be referring to industrial 14 equipment. 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: That is correct. 16 MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel with 17 Mitsubishi Electric. 18 VRF systems aren't specifically 19 mentioned here. Should they be included? 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. So, I 21 believe -- and cross-check my math here -- but 22 in the ASHRAE rule, DOE added VRFs as a type

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 60 1 of commercial air conditioning and heating 2 equipment, and AEDMs apply to all commercial 3 air conditioning and heating equipment. 4 MR. DOPPEL: Okay. Thank you.

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Just make sure 6 that the reg text -- we will check it as well, 7 but make sure that that is in. That was the 8 intention, though. 9 MR. STRAUB: Mike Straub, 10 Heatcraft Refrigeration. 11 We appreciate the ability to 12 utilize AEDMs on the refrigeration systems for 13 walk-in coolers and freezers. The issue that 14 we have is the definition of product classes. 15 You stated that the product classes would be 16 defined when the performance standards are 17 revealed, but that was supposed to be January 18 of this year. That hasn't been done. Is it a 19 matter of manufacturers submitting information 20 to you on what we believe product classes 21 should be? Or do we have to wait? Because we 22 would like to be doing our testing to develop

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 61 1 AEDMs now. 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, first of all, 3 we would welcome information that suggests 4 what product classes should be. That being 5 said, the rulemaking is also ongoing 6 considering standards for them. I am sure the 7 preliminary analysis at least speaks to some 8 of that. So, I would cross-check with that. 9 But, yes, you are right, the final 10 product class or equipment class wouldn't come 11 out until amended standards. And so, we could 12 deal with that here. 13 Yes, thank you for pointing that

14 out. 15 Okay. So, we have talked about 16 most of this, but the idea, the premise that 17 the Department had was that we believe that 18 manufacturers should have the ability to come 19 up with a single AEDM or multiple AEDMs at 20 their discretion for use across a wide range 21 of their product offering. It could be one 22 simulation for all the products. It could be

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 62 1 multiple ones. Really, our proposal is just 2 that. It is left to your discretion. 3 So, we have gotten a lot of 4 comments already on what are product classes 5 and equipment classes in terms of that. We 6 noted that we would be interested in knowing 7 if you needed additional clarification on

8 that. 9 But we wondered what you guys 10 thought about the use of a single AEDM or 11 multiple AEDMs or leaving it at your 12 discretion to use a single AEDM across a wide 13 range of product classes in your entire 14 product offering, if you so choose to and they 15 met the substantiation requirement. 16 So, I open the floor for that 17 proposal. 18 MR. LORD: Dick Lord with Carrier. 19 We favor that. I mean, you can 20 leave it to our discretion whether we want to 21 do it for a small product or a large product 22 class. So, we support that.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 63 1 MR. FLY: Mark Fly with AAON. 2 I, too, support that. The basic 3 components that are going into all these 4 products are the same are similar, and we have 5 product models developed for each component. 6 And so, the AEDM is a balance of all the 7 components that we have put together. So, it

8 seems reasonable that we can do that. 9 Now are you going to discuss at 10 some point the tolerances on the AEDM? 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, that is next, 12 and I might seek a break before that for my 13 own benefit. 14 (Laughter.) 15 Does anyone else want to -- sure. 16 Sorry, Harvey. 17 MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs, ACEEE. 18 To turn back to your example of 19 product classes, which might be electric 20 resistance water heaters, gas water heaters, 21 tank and tankless, and all the other 22 permutations that we have now as product

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 64 1 classes, you can certainly take Dick Lord's 2 approach and have different modules and call 3 that a single AEDM. Or you can be using 4 different models for product class. And the 5 question is, does or should DOE have an 6 interest in which way a manufacturer chooses 7 to do his AEDMs? 8 I might be a manufacturer who only 9 does super-insulated tank water heaters. Do I 10 need to have a broadly-applicable AEDM? 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, this is 12 Ashley. 13 Okay. So, what we tried to do was 14 allow the manufacturer the discretion to have15 the broadly-applicable AEDM or have the not16 broadly-applicable AEDM. In other words, it 17 doesn't require broad applicability. 18 If they are only going to use it 19 for a single product class, then it only has 20 to be tested with that product class, although 21 the minimum number of models is five. So, it 22 would be five models, period.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 65 1 But I get where you are going with 2 this, but it doesn't have to have like this 3 wide-range applicability if it didn't need to. 4 MR. ROBERTS: This is Carl at Zero

5 Zone. 6 Based on working with this over 7 the past couple of years, the reality is that 8 we have to use AEDMs in order to rate untested 9 basic models for compliance to be practical. 10 In all reality, we end up testing several 11 models from each product class or equipment

12 class. 13 And it is necessary to use more 14 than one AEDM, even within a particular 15 equipment class. That is how it works out so 16 far. And even then, it is going to be 17 difficult for small manufacturers to comply. 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: I am going to ask 19 a followup. Can you explain why that is? And 20 do you have a suggestion to help? I mean, 21 what would you change? 22 MR. ROBERTS: That is a good

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 66 1 question. To answer the question why, testing 2 is very complex. And for a small manufacturer 3 or a startup, it would represent a very large 4 part of what they are doing. It might exceed 5 the effort put into manufacturing. 6 I am not sure what the answer is, 7 you know, how do you solve that problem. I 8 guess one possibility is that you give very 9 small manufacturers a pass or some permutation 10 of that. That is all I can think of. 11 MR. NESHAN: Massoud Neshan, 12 Southern Store Fixtures. 13 I would like to add to what was 14 just stated. We are a small manufacturer of 15 commercial refrigeration equipment, and we 16 manufacture highly-customized and unique and 17 different display cases on a daily basis. 18 In our standard catalog, we have 19 over 500 basic models. And then, on a daily 20 basis, we design new equipment. And we might 21 only sell one case of that unique design in a 22 given year, but the effort that goes into

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 67 1 testing that or developing AEDM is the same as

2 when we manufacture a thousand of the same 3 model. So, it is a very back-breaking process 4 and costly process that kind of prohibits 5 innovation and providing what the customers 6 require. 7 What is the solution? It is very 8 simple. And I know we have discussed this in 9 the past, but the answer has been no. But you 10 have to set a limit on, if you sell two pieces 11 of equipment a year, does it need to be going 12 through the same process? That is the 13 question. Or should it be a limit of 10 or 20 14 or 50? I don't know what the answer is. 15 But there has to be a solution, so 16 that it would allow us, as a small 17 manufacturer, to design, manufacture, and sell 18 the piece of equipment that we need to do. 19 Under current test conditions, we 20 have to test at least two units before we can 21 enter that unit into commerce. Well, picture 22 this: we manufacture one. We sell one. But

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 68 1 we have to manufacture two to test. It just

2 doesn't make sense. 3 I mean, we waste more energy 4 manufacturing the second unit than we would 5 ever save in the entire life of that unit that 6 was sold into the marketplace. It just

7 doesn't make sense. 8 Maybe we have to look at what some 9 Europeans and other countries have 10 established. They have established, for 11 example, Australia and New Zealand, if you 12 import less than 50 units per year, they are 13 exempt from their requirements, which is 14 practical. 15 Thank you. 16 MR. WILKINS: Robert Wilkins,

17 Danfoss. 18 Just an observation that this has 19 to do with materiality. Materiality from the 20 manufacturer's point of view, but also 21 materiality from the customer and from the 22 market-at-large point of view.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 69 1 You might be able to deal with 2 some of these kinds of issues by a materiality 3 provision that puts a cutoff, that sets some 4 limits or thresholds. Just an idea. 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Thank you. 6 Sure, Karim, go ahead. 7 MR. AMRANE: Karim Amrane, AHRI. 8 I guess I have a question for DOE. 9 Does DOE have the authority to, for example, 10 put the limit on a minimum, a production limit 11 or something like that? Or does it need some 12 legislation? 13 MS. BARHYDT: Can I respond to

14 that after the break?

15 MR. AMRANE: Sure. 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. 17 MR. DAUGHERTY: Roger Daugherty, 18 Baldor Electric. 19 I think it is becoming obvious 20 that over the many years that we have been 21 working on the various final rules and NOPRs 22 for electric motors and small electric motors,

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 70 1 that those are being lumped over and looked at 2 like some of these other products. Once we 3 get into electric motors, as I said, just at a 4 single mechanical configuration, you are 5 looking at 24,000 basic models covered by the 6 present standards in Part 431. Add on those 7 for the small electric motors. 8 So, if you were to define the 9 product classes the way you did for small 10 electric motors, this idea of testing one 11 basic model from each product class just is 12 inconceivable for electric motors and small 13 electric motors. That is why I encourage you 14 to reconsider what is in presently Part 431 15 for electric motors and small electric motors 16 as to how to properly select at least five 17 basic models that cover the ratings that are 18 covered by the standards and make 19 substantiation of AEDM from that. 20 And it may be necessary that in 21 Part 429 that you bring that information over 22 for electric motors and small electric motors

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 71 1 and not do the substantiation on product 2 classes and things like you are doing it for 3 other equipment. 4 Thank you. 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Thank you. 6 MR. DOPPEL: Ashley?

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes? 8 MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel with 9 Mitsubishi Electric. 10 In The Federal Register on page 11 32056, and this is under paragraph 5, 12 "Additional Test Units," "Each AEDM must be 13 supported by test data obtained from physical

14 tests of current models." 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. 16 MR. DOPPEL: That is kind of an 17 implication that every time you change your 18 model lineup you have to change your AEDM. Is 19 that the intent there? 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: That is not how -- 21 well, perhaps we need to clarify. 22 But this is Ashley from DOE.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 72 1 If one of the models you use to 2 substantiate your AEDM is discontinued, you 3 need to replace it with an active model. That 4 is what it means. In other words, if a new 5 standard goes into effect and three of the 6 five units you use to substantiate your AEDM 7 will no longer meet the standard and are 8 either (a) redesigned and rerated or (b) 9 discontinued, then you need to go through and 10 make sure, resubstantiate your AEDM. 11 That does not necessarily imply 12 that you need to change your AEDM, but if you 13 rerun it and the results are no longer valid 14 for the simulation, you would need to retest 15 those models with actual testing, compare it 16 to the simulation. And for each model beyond 17 the 5 percent, if the mean is not within the 3 18 percent, then you would need to do something 19 at that point, whatever it may be. Okay? 20 There is like a more reoccurring thing rather

21 than a never.

22 Yes?

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 73 1 MR. SACHS: Do you want to get 2 into the substantiation part now or do you 3 want to wait? 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: No. No, let's

5 take a break. 6 (Laughter.) 7 MR. VerSHAW: I have got a 8 question, though, first. 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: Oh, sure. 10 MR. VerSHAW: You know, I think if 11 you look at each type of product you are 12 trying to cover -- oh, Jim VerShaw with 13 Ingersoll Rand -- you know, we do air 14 conditioning and heat pumps and heating. For 15 air conditioning on the residential side, it 16 is the same engine that does the simulations, 17 whether it is a heat pump or an air 18 conditioner. And we are relatively, you know, 19 one and a half to five tons, it is fairly 20 straightforward. 21 If you get into the bigger 22 equipment, and I don't see any difference

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 74 1 between a 15-ton and a 25-ton in terms of how 2 you would simulate that. It still has got a 3 compressor. It has got two coils and it has 4 got a couple of fans. 5 So, why you need to go into those 6 air conditioners and have one from each one, 7 it might be better to know which of those 8 models are the ones that are pushing the 9 design the hardest, which one is most compact 10 or most open or that type of thing. Whether 11 or not it is gas heat or electric heat may not 12 be an issue. 13 I think we need to have an open 14 mind by product family as to how you would go 15 about doing that. I think that we may be 16 asking for more tests upfront than are really 17 necessary. Or maybe it is too easy to pass it 18 in some cases, you know, if you want to 19 cherry-pick some of those. 20 We will be making comments on 21 that, but -- 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, I mean, at

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 75 1 this point, the Department is open. It was 2 very clear when we wrote the notice 3 -- hopefully, it is clear to you as well -- 4 that we would consider alternatives. So, 5 suggestions are welcome both ways. 6 So, at this point, we are going to 7 take about a 15-minute break. We are going to 8 come back to talk about substantiation 9 requirements.

10 Please come back at about 10:30 or

11 so. 12 (Whereupon, the foregoing matter

13 went off the record at 10:13 a.m. and went 14 back on the record at 10:34 a.m.) 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. Getting 16 back, before we get into substantiation 17 requirements, we have two questions on the 18 phone. 19 So, the first one I am going to go 20 to is Robert Barry. 21 MR. BARRY: Yes, hi. This is 22 Robert Barry with Unico.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 76 1 This is a question pertaining to 2 ICMs. Before the break, we talked about the 3 conditions under which a manufacturer would 4 have to resubstantiate their own AEDM. I was 5 just wondering, going back a step, what is the 6 responsibility of ICM manufacturers to 7 resubstantiate their AEDM if one of the 8 manufacturers with whom they pair has to 9 resubstantiate their AEDM? And what is the 10 responsibility of an ICM for modeling results, 11 tolerances, for the overall mixed system, 12 especially in light of the black-box nature of 13 each manufacturer's simulation methods and 14 algorithms? And would DOE consider providing 15 data or standard AEDMs for the various classes 16 that ICMs could use in lieu of manufacturer 17 data for the purposes of ratings and 18 substantiation from systems? 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. So, I am 20 going to go one-by-one because that was a lot 21 of questions. 22 MR. BERRY: Yes, sure.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 77 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. So, I am 2 going to start with the last one first. Right 3 now, this proposal doesn't contemplate like a 4 DOE kind of an overall AEDM. That is the 5 first thing. Right now, it just allows 6 manufacturers at their discretion. So, at 7 this point, we have not considered anything 8 like that. 9 As far as ICMs go, and if a 10 condensing unit specifically is discontinued 11 that you built your AEDM off of for the ICM, 12 even though you are not the manufacturer of 13 the condensing unit, you know, it doesn't 14 specifically separate requirements between an 15 OEM and an ICM, and maybe that is something 16 the Department should consider. Right now, it

17 seems to read the same. 18 So, if a model was discontinued, 19 like a condensing unit was discontinued for 20 what you used to substantiate your AEDM, it 21 seems -- this is just the way I read it -- 22 that you would need to replace that unit by a

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 78 1 new condensing unit, test it in the same way 2 an OEM would. And to the extent you have 3 certain suggestions that we should consider 4 specific to ICMs, we would welcome those. 5 Okay. So, the next question is 6 from Ron Shebik. 7 Okay. Ron? 8 MR. SHEBIK: Yes, hi, Ashley. Can 9 you hear me? 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: I can hear you. 11 Just make sure you talk pretty closely to the 12 phone. 13 MR. SHEBIK: Okay. Hey, Ashley, I 14 would just make a comment that, in general, I 15 agree with the discussion on page 16, but I 16 think maybe a useful exercise, since there 17 seems to be some confusion amongst the people 18 in this meeting, a useful exercise may be to 19 look at product classifications, basic model 20 groups, and equipment classification, and 21 maybe discuss how they all relate to each

22 other.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 79 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Sure. Thank you.

2 MR. SHEBIK: Thanks. 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. So, if we 4 don't have any other general questions before 5 we move into substantiation requirements, we 6 are going to do just that. 7 So, the AEDM tolerances, 8 currently, the Department, for those products 9 for which we have simulations where we have 10 two tolerances -- well, we have three -- one 11 is 1 percent and one is 5 percent and one is 12 10 percent, and they vary by product type. 13 So, in this rulemaking, DOE has 14 individual tolerances for most of the 15 equipment, commercial HVAC, refrigeration-type 16 equipment, residential CACs and CHBs at 5 17 percent. So, each individual unit tested must 18 be within 5 percent of the AEDM simulation

19 results.

20 Yes? 21 MR. VerSHAW: I just find it 22 interesting -- Jim VerShaw, Ingersoll Rand --

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 80 1 that motors have a 10 percent tolerance and 2 HVAC, which takes -- what? -- 95 percent or 99 3 percent of this energy comes from three 4 motors, maybe four, and we are only doing 5 5 percent, along with scroll and piston 6 machining and prop fans and blower wheels, and 7 all the other things that you get variations 8 in, along with an extreme amount of lab 9 variation. 10 MR. WILKINS: Robert Wilkins,

11 Danfoss. 12 I was just going to comment on the 13 lab variation inherent in unitary air 14 conditioning compared to motors. 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: Can you speak to 16 what you think the magnitude of each of those 17 is? 18 MR. VerSHAW: This is Jim Vershaw. 19 Through work at Ingersoll Rand 20 and, also, with AHRI, we have been digging 21 into this lab issue. There is a lot to it. 22 If you look at repeatability, a major third-

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 81 1 party lab does round robins with a single 2 unit, and they think they are doing well if 3 they are plus or minus 2 percent from the test 4 from facility-to-facility. 5 Now, if you have a unit that 6 essentially has a performance of one, but you 7 test it in one room and you get .98 and you 8 test it another room and you get 1.02, the DOE 9 rules won't allow us to rate it at the mean. 10 It is too far apart. And that is just 11 repeatability from room to room. 12 Now in terms of variability, 13 instrumentation for measuring volts and all 14 these things has been improved over the years. 15 However, the subsystems that they are used on 16 haven't. In fact, work that has been done by 17 the AHRI subcommittee has found that there are 18 inadequacies in the ASHRAE standards for 19 psychrometers, for mixers, for damper boxes. 20 And there is really five things. 21 So, measuring wet bulb, which is 22 key to the air conditioning, is not done very

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 82 1 well. Measuring airflow is not done very 2 well. In fact, we have found substantial 3 error, depending on which nozzles you were 4 using. Mixer boxes aren't defined well 5 enough. The sample trees in which you try to 6 sample the air going into the heat exchangers 7 are not well-defined. 8 And so, there are about five 9 things, and each one of those five things has 10 a variation of about 1.5 to 3 percent effect 11 on testing. Now does that add up to 15 12 percent? No, but 5 percent is really a 13 stretch on those things. 14 Now let's put on top of that you 15 have got the 10 percent motor variation. And 16 compressors tend not to come out of the box at 17 mature performance. Most compressors, 18 especially scroll manufacturers, will supply a 19 compressor to us that is somewhere between 95 20 and 97 percent of its rated performance, which 21 after about 75 hours of run time is probably 22 pushing, then, closer to 99 to 100 percent.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 83 1 So, lots of issues in here as far 2 as what can happen. We have been dealing with 3 the 5 percent tolerance for quite a bit of 4 time through the AHRI program. Of course, we 5 conservatively rate equipment and the like. 6 And so, I think that some of these numbers 7 like 3 percent is difficult. 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, just to 9 clarify, are we okay with the 5 percent, but 10 you are advocating a 5 percent for motors? 11 MR. AMRANE: Karim Amrane. 12 I guess I think what we need here, 13 we need to revisit all those tolerances and 14 those percentages. I mean, why 5 percent? 15 Why 10 percent? On what basis is DOE picking 16 10 percent for motors and 5 percent for air 17 conditioners? I think those things have to be 18 revisited. They have been there for many, 19 many years, but I think it is about time to 20 review them. 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: We will go to the

22 back one second.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 84 1 MR. DAUGHERTY: Roger Daugherty, 2 Baldor Electric. 3 I think I can clarify some of the 4 confusion here. But, first, what I think is a 5 rather simple question to DOE. When a final 6 rule is published and makes changes to one of 7 the parts, when are those changes effective? 8 I ask because, in preparing comments on this 9 NOPR, there is a final rule May 4th of this 10 month that made changes to things that are 11 being changed by this NOPR. 12 So, I would like to know whether 13 or not that final rule is in place and the 14 comments go against that final rule or if the 15 final rule, then, replaces over this NOPR, 16 which means the change is made through this 17 NOPR, get replaced by that final rule. 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, these are 19 proposed. These would overwrite the final 20 rule changes. 21 MR. DAUGHERTY: Okay. 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, the comments

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 85 1 go to this docket. 2 MR. DAUGHERTY: Okay. Now, to try 3 to clarify what is here -- and I found it very 4 interesting that, under the present procedure 5 for electric motors and small electric motors, 6 for substantiating the AEDM, the tolerance 7 that is applied of 10 percent is to total 8 losses, not to efficiency. Yet, in preparing 9 this NOPR, DOE has changed that to be a 10 tolerance on efficiency. 11 Was that the actual intent of DOE 12 to change the tolerance for electric motors 13 and small electric motors to be based on 14 efficiency rather than total losses? And I 15 only point that out because that is a 16 substantial difference between the tolerance 17 on efficiency values. 18 MR. HON: Charlie Hon, True 19 Manufacturing. 20 I am sitting here looking at21 commercial refrigeration equipment, self22 contained materials. I can tell you for a

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 86 1 fact that I can take the standard procedure, 2 the test procedure available to us today, 3 within the scope of the range of electrical 4 current, ambient temperatures within the room, 5 and the temperature inside the cabinet, and 6 keep them all in the specification, and come 7 up with about 8 percent variation unit-to-unit 8 on the same unit. 9 MR. VerSHAW: Yes, this is Jim 10 Vershaw again. 11 There has been some work done, the 12 ISO group, a working group on looking at 13 efficiencies, again, for HVAC-type equipment 14 where you do an entropy balance. They are 15 pushing for a 10 percent uncertainty because 16 they found it was close to 7 percent for air 17 conditioning in that work, which kind of 18 supports the issues that I brought up earlier. 19 MR. ROBERTS: This is Carl from

20 Zero Zone. 21 With regard to CRE, there is a 22 number of things that affect this percentage.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 87 1 There is a surprising amount of variability 2 in the manufacturing of things like the glass 3 doors. In fact, our tolerance from our glass 4 door vendors for the heat on the glass doors, 5 plus or minus 10 percent. There are a number 6 of things that are hard to measure, short of 7 having a million-dollar lab, such as mass 8 flow. There are things that are hard to 9 regulate, such as voltage and humidity.10 For a reasonably-equipped third11 party test facility, I think the 5 percent and 12 3 percent is too tight. I think 10 percent 13 and 5 percent might be more like it. 14 MR. FLY: You know, having mostly 15 air conditioning guys having been testing with 16 ARI for a number of years, and comparing it 17 with one lab, which does chamber-to-chamber 18 tests that are in the 2 percent range, we have 19 all calibrated our ratings, basically, to the 20 results of that lab. That is the meter stick 21 today. 22 My big concern is, if we start

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 88 1 going out to other labs and we are just using 2 some ISO standard that basically says I have 3 got smart people running the place, and that 4 my equipment has been calibrated, we all know 5 who are sitting in this room that there is a 6 whole lot more to getting repeatable results

7 than that. 8 I would strongly encourage, when 9 you are looking at these tolerances, that you 10 look at tolerances only on one side, 11 whichever, so that we can conservatively rate 12 equipment and even conservatively calibrate 13 our AEDM, so that we are sure to not only

14 account for our lab tolerances and our 15 manufacturing tolerances, even if they happen 16 to be beyond what we see up here. 17 So, the ability to be able to not 18 do plus or minus when we are looking at the 19 AEDM qualifications, to fall along the same 20 lines as you have done with the testing and 21 the confidence levels, so that you only go to 22 the negative side, would be very helpful.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 89 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. So, before I 2 keep going, I am just going to answer that. 3 Throughout 429 in the individual product 4 sections, you will notice that we restructured 5 a bit. Perhaps you haven't had a chance to 6 fully read through this. 7 But what it does is the first 8 part, it sets forth any representative value 9 from testing. And then, the second part, it 10 sets out any representative value from an 11 AEDM. What it allows is either to use 12 something more conservative than the AEDM 13 value all the way up to the AEDM value. So, I 14 believe that is what you are asking for, and 15 that is in the proposal for each product. 16 MR. FLY: Yes, but within the 3 17 percent average of the mean is plus or minus.

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: I understand. 19 MR. FLY: Which means I have got 20 to have test data that falls within that 3 21 percent and I have to be at the center of it. 22 I may want to conservatively rate or

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 90 1 calibrate my AEDM to be lower than that, so 2 that I can ensure that I can account for any

3 lab-to-lab.

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: You would rather 5 just go to the negative range? Okay. 6 Keep going around. 7 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes, I was going to 8 say I agree just on the negative range -- 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay.

10 MS. HOOTMAN: -- and let the 11 upside potential be there. 12 MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs, ACEEE. 13 We have no objection on policy 14 grounds for manufacturers who wish to mislead 15 the public by selling products that are more 16 efficient than their ratings would indicate. 17 (Laughter.) 18 We support the negative.

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: Sure. Sure. 20 Thank you.

21 Go ahead. 22 MR. GARST: Mike Garst at Lennox.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 91 1 Just support the negative only. 2 It is really especially important for the ICMs 3 because they have got very limited information 4 from the high-side manufacturers, and they 5 have to be conservative.

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Sure. 7 MR. LORD: I have a little bit 8 different take on what you are asking here. 9 The way I understood it, I test five units and 10 they have to be within 5 percent and the 11 average has to be 3 percent. Now that proves 12 my AEDM. 13 Now I can add an additional 2 14 percent, 5 percent, whatever I want, to my 15 AEDM when I publish my ratings. So, I am 16 conservative, right? 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: That is correct.

18 MR. LORD: Yes. 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: That is exactly

20 correct. 21 MR. LORD: So, this just validates 22 your test --

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 92 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: This is validating 2 your rating. Your rating, then, I mean, you 3 can then use your AEDMs, once they are 4 substantiated, to get the certified ratings 5 for everything else and those can be 6 conservative all the way down to the standard.

7 MR. LORD: Yes. 8 MR. FLY: So, what point is the 3 9 percent? 10 MR. LORD: So, basically, you have 11 five tests. And I can keep going. I will 12 answer it. I won't do that. 13 (Laughter.) 14 You have five tests. In those 15 five tests, none can be more than 5 percent 16 off, plus or minus 5 percent, and the average 17 has to be plus or minus 3 percent. That 18 substantiates your AEDM. 19 Now, when you publish, you can say 20 we don't feel confident; we are going to add 21 another 2 percent safety factor. And that is 22 what she is saying is okay.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 93 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: That is correct. 2 I mean, his explanation is right.

3 Go ahead. Go ahead. Yes. 4 MR. WILKINS: Robert Wilkins,

5 Danfoss. 6 I would like to reiterate a point 7 Karim Amrane made about maybe stepping back 8 and taking a fresh look or a deeper look at 9 some of this. And some of the dimensions that 10 I would like to comment on are you have a wide 11 range of equipment listed up there. Some12 equipment is self-contained. It is factory13 charged. It is factory-sealed. It is very 14 controllable by the manufacturer.15 Some of that equipment is field16 connected and even field-charged or at least 17 field-topoff. And in the lab, there are some 18 restrictions as to how much tweaking of the 19 refrigerant charge is appropriate. And even 20 if the manufacturer specifies that certain 21 amount of adjustment is in order, it may not 22 be done in the lab.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 94 1 And so, there is a wide range of 2 variability attributable to the type of the 3 equipment that might be considered here as 4 well, self-contained versus field-connected 5 and field-charged, for example. 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. Go ahead. 7 MR. LORD: Yes, maybe to add, and 8 I was going to bring it up later, but this is 9 probably a good point. When you get into 10 commercial equipment, it is a very complex 11 piece of equipment. Most have microprocessors 12 on it. 13 I know on our equipment, and I 14 think a lot of the competitors also do the 15 same thing, we require factory commissioning. 16 You know, they have to set it up because the 17 average guy is not trained to set up that 18 piece of equipment. 19 So, I know you have allowed that 20 on VRF systems. We need to also consider that 21 on large commercial equipment. 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 95 1 MR. WILKINS: My one rule would be 2 anytime factory commissioning is required in 3 the field, it should be considered in the 4 laboratory as well. 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. 6 MR. VerSHAW: Jim VerShaw, 7 Ingersoll Rand. 8 For the testing, these tests, Test 9 X-1 on, are those manufacturers' tests or are 10 they third-party tests? 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: No, there is no --12 this is Ashley from DOE -- there is no third13 party testing requirements. They are

14 manufacturer tests. 15 MR. VerSHAW: Oh, I guess it is 16 manufacturer setup then. 17 (Laughter.) 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct. I think 19 he was referring to verification and 20 enforcement potentially.

21 Sure. Please. 22 MR. DAUGHERTY: Roger Daugherty,

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 96 1 Baldor Electric. 2 With regard to this plus or minus 3 3 percent, throughout the discussion in the 4 NOPR, in the actual title of Figure C-1, it 5 says, "except for electric motors and small 6 electric motors," but that exception is not in 7 the text, in the actual 429.75(i). 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. 9 MR. DAUGHERTY: Oh, I guess it is 10 four, under "Average Tolerances". 11 And maybe give a little bit more 12 information. I realize, again, there is this 13 thing of electric motors and small electric 14 motors, and they are treated very differently 15 than many of these other products. 16 In EPAct in 1992, they were the 17 only equipment that was actually required to 18 have to be tested in an accredited test 19 facility. And so, in the 1990s, between NEMA 20 in conjunction with NIST/NAVLAP, so that they 21 could create an accreditation program, we 22 conducted round-robin testing to determine

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 97 1 what the tolerance was as a factor of testing, 2 both during the round robin, so we could see 3 between test facilities, and also see just for 4 testing motors within a facility. 5 And as a result of that, we 6 actually conducted a second round of round 7 robin after modifying the IEEE 112 test

8 standard and created the NAVLAP Handbook 9 150-10 for the accreditation program. 10 So, there is a very great deal of 11 background that goes into the various levels 12 of tolerances that are in the test 13 requirements for testing a sample of five of a 14 basic model within Part 431, as well as the 15 comparison to AEDM. So, while I would suggest 16 for electric motors and small electric motors 17 that you reconsider what is in Part 431 and 18 the use of the word "tolerance" against total 19 losses, but also that tightening that up would 20 be extremely difficult. And you need to go 21 back into the history that really supports all 22 of that information.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 98 1 Thank you. 2 MR. FLY: In looking for some of 3 this information on your website -- 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: State your name. 5 State your name. 6 MR. FLY: Oh, Mark Fly with AAON. 7 In looking at some of the 8 information on your website, it looked DOE had 9 been running a round-robin test. Is any of 10 this information that you have got here based 11 on any -- I haven't seen any results of that 12 -- of any round-robin lab-to-lab test data on 13 HVAC equipment? 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, the round 15 robin we have run so far is mostly for 16 residential household appliances, not 17 necessarily for this type of equipment yet. 18 And most of these were informed either by -- 19 we have existing sampling procedures which 20 have test tolerances for actual testing, as 21 well as comments we received in response to

22 the RFI from manufacturers.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 99 1 Karen? 2 MS. MEYERS: Yes, this is Karen 3 Meyers with Rheem Manufacturing. 4 My question was similar. I was 5 just curious, you know, what was the analysis 6 that DOE used to come up with this 5 percent, 7 10 percent, and 3 percent? How do we know? I 8 mean, where do those numbers come from? Are 9 they just -- 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: It is the same 11 thing I just said. 12 MS. MEYERS: Yes. So, I mean, I 13 think it would be, if we are going to set a 14 rule on how we should do this, there should be 15 some type of statistical analysis to find out, 16 are these, in fact, the right percentages? I 17 mean, I don't know; maybe they are. But it 18 seems like there should be some type of 19 analysis, then, to substantiate these 20 percentages. 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. We have a 22 couple of questions from the phone.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 100 1 Steve Ruffing, you should be

2 unmuted. 3 MR. RUFFING: Okay. I wanted to 4 expand on a previous comment that Roger 5 Daugherty made about whether the electric 6 motor and small electric motor tolerance is 7 based on efficiency or total losses. 8 What is presently codified in 10 9 CFR Part 431 is a tolerance based on total 10 losses. So, for instance, if you had a 11 nominal full-load efficiency of 91.7 percent, 12 if you took 10 percent greater losses than 13 that, you would actually end up with an 14 efficiency of 90.9 percent. And if you took 15 10 percent lower losses than that, you would 16 end up with an efficiency of 92.4 percent. 17 So, the tolerance on the 18 efficiency is presently codified. It is, 19 actually, in this particular case plus or 20 minus 1 percent. But what is being proposed 21 here in the NOPR is to change the tolerance to 22 plus or minus 10 percent on the efficiency,

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 101 1 not the total losses. 2 So, going back to this example of 3 a nominal efficiency of 91.7 percent, that 4 would widen the tolerance range to 90.9 5 percent to 101 percent. And that is a 6 substantial change, as Roger pointed out. 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. Thank you. 8 So, we have another question from 9 the phone from Kunal Kapoor. Oh, maybe it was 10 just a question. 11 Five percent, is that plus or 12 minus 5? And the answer is yes, the way it is 13 written right now. 14 Okay. Any other comments on 15 tolerances specifically? 16 (No response.) 17 Okay. Now we are going to talk 18 about selecting units for substantiation. 19 Test a minimum of five basic models, including 20 at least one from each product class. So, if 21 you have less than five product classes, you 22 still have to test five. If you have more

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 102 1 than five product classes for which you want 2 to apply an AEDM, you must test more than 3 five. 4 Distribution transformers is 5 different, and it is retained at the same 6 requirement it is today. Test the smallest 7 and largest capacity basic models from the 8 product class of the highest field volume. 9 That largest capacity is within the 25 percent 10 of the largest capacity. Test the model with 11 the highest sales volume the previous year or 12 the basic model which is expected to have the 13 highest volume sales. 14 And then, obviously, the test data 15 -- this is something new -- the test data 16 underlying the substantiation must be current. 17 So, it must meet the existing federal energy 18 conservation standards and be tested with the 19 applicable test procedure. So, if there is a 20 test procedure change or if there is a 21 standard change and those models weren't 22 tested in accordance with whatever the new

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 103 1 regulations are, they would need to be

2 retested. 3 So, at this point, I will open the 4 floor to questions and comments on those. 5 Sure, Frank. 6 MR. STANONIK: I am Frank Stanonik 7 with AHRI. 8 I certainly appreciate the idea to 9 try to keep this simple. But if someone -- 10 and you can't rule it out -- but if someone 11 chose to have an AEDM that only applied to 12 five basic models, this would say, yes, that 13 company has to test each one of those five 14 basic models. And yet, if I had an AEDM that 15 applied to 50 basic models, I still only have 16 to test five. 17 Without having a specific proposal 18 at this time, it seems like it might make some 19 sense to say that if you -- again, this might 20 be a rare circumstance -- but if you had an 21 AEDM that was only applicable to five or six 22 models, then you should maybe only test three

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 104 1 of them, or something like that. In other 2 words, maybe a little subcategory that, if 3 there is that rare case where an AEDM is 4 actually not very expansive, let's say, then 5 you don't necessarily have to test all the 6 models, because at that point you are kind of 7 undermining why have an AEDM. If I have to 8 test all my models, I will just test all my 9 models. It is a fine point, but I think it is 10 something that makes some sense. 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. Thank you.

12 Sure. 13 MR. LORD: In the selection of the 14 models, you said meet the requirements. Is it 15 okay for units to exceed the requirements?

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Of course. 17 MR. LORD: So, like we use Energy

18 Star so we can cover --

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: Of course. 20 MR. LORD: Okay. Good. 21 MR. DAUGHERTY: Roger Daugherty, 22 Baldor Electric.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 105 1 A couple of items. With respect 2 to testing 25 units for distribution 3 transformers, I think you will find that that 4 is also true for electric motors and small 5 electric motors. The actual rules for 6 distribution transformers were actually 7 created from the establishment of those for 8 electric motors. 9 The last item about, if standards, 10 test standards, or so, were to change -- for 11 example, the IEEE 112 Working Group is 12 presently meeting to modify that test 13 standard. In the present final rule, the 14 recent final rule on test standards, DOE 15 adopted the 2004 version; whereas, presently, 16 we were testing under the much earlier version 17 that existed. 18 Most of those changes are 19 numerical calculations. There are no changes 20 in the actual test procedure itself. They are 21 just trying to fine-tune how you determine 22 some of the individual losses in the

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 106 1 calculation. 2 So, at what extent does a change 3 in a test standard require going back and 4 repeating all the testing to substantiate an

5 AEDM? 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, I mean, I 7 think your point is a good one. At this 8 point, it does not clarify which way it goes. 9 I mean, for all intents and purposes, if the 10 exact test is the same, the calculations are 11 different such that the numbers would be 12 different, it could be one plausible situation 13 or outcome could be one where you don't 14 necessarily retest because the test data is 15 the same. You rerun all the calculations, 16 though, feed that into your AEDM to make sure 17 the substantiation requirements are still met, 18 and then go from there. But that is not 19 something right now that is specific in the

20 rule.

21 MR. DAUGHERTY: Would that be made 22 specific in a final rule?

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 107 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: It could be, yes.

2 It could be. 3 MR. DAUGHERTY: Thank you. 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Sure. Thank you. 5 Sure. Jill? 6 MS. HOOTMAN: Jill Hootman, Trane. 7 Okay. So, we said before the8 product classes for commercial HVAC, air9 cooled, were those ASHRAE classes. If I am 10 reading it correctly, I have to do the 11 smallest and largest basic models from that 12 product class. That is 15 tests, if I add 13 that up. 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Fifteen. So, I 15 don't have the numbers, but you have to do it 16 from just the product class with the highest 17 sales volume. So, highest and lowest is just

18 one -- 19 MS. HOOTMAN: So, it is the five 20 plus the two? 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Plus one, right? 22 So, one of those will be the five, and the

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 108 1 other one. So, that is six. But, obviously, 2 there is more product classes than five. 3 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, there will be 5 more, but I can't imagine it is more than 20 6 or 30, off the top of my head. I could count 7 them, though, at break, if you wanted to go 8 through that. 9 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. Okay. Let's

10 do that. 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. Sure.

12 Please. 13 MR. KLEISS: Okay. This goes back 14 to, I guess, the product classes and how those 15 apply to these. If I am understanding 16 correctly, validating an AEDM, that we have to 17 validate an AEDM for each different product 18 class that we are involved in. Is that

19 correct? 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: That is correct. 21 MR. KLEISS: Okay. So -- 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: But you don't have

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 109 1 to -- okay, keep going, first of all. 2 MR. KLEISS: Okay. In the case 3 of, say, commercial boilers, commercial 4 boilers are classified by The Federal Register 5 in large and small.

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct.

7 MR. KLEISS: Now we could have one 8 product family, I will say, that uses the same 9 kind of construction that bridges the gap 10 between small and commercial. And the small 11 boilers, they would be measuring thermal 12 efficiency and large boilers they would 13 measure combustion efficiency. So, a 14 different test methodology there. 15 Now setting up those boilers could 16 take a couple of days to a couple of weeks in

17 order for us to be able to do those tests. It 18 is to our advantage, when we are setting up 19 those small commercial boilers, that we would 20 test both commercial and thermal efficiency. 21 And when we set up a large boiler, we would 22 test both thermal and commercial efficiency.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 110 1 Now, since the efficiencies are 2 not covered by the ruling, can we use those 3 efficiencies measured outside of the product 4 class to still determine our AEDM for the 5 product? By definition, we can't use data 6 that falls outside of the product class -- 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Oh, no, no, no. 8 MR. KLEISS: -- based on what you 9 said earlier. 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. 11 MR. KLEISS: You are getting where 12 I am going with the question? 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: I understand your 14 question -- 15 MR. KLEISS: Okay. 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- if that is what 17 you are asking. I think I do at least. Let's 18 try the answer and see if it works. 19 MR. KLEISS: Okay. 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, this is Ashley

21 from DOE. 22 At your discretion, you can use

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 111 1 any additional information you may want to 2 substantiate your AEDM. If that is different 3 metrics, if that is other units, like if you 4 wanted to test 50 instead of 20, you could 5 always do more. However, you can't switch out 6 a non-regulating metric for a regulating 7 metric. But if you did combustion, in your 8 example, if you did combustion and thermal, 9 and for the one -- I don't know off the top of 10 my head, but if it is small, it is combustion, 11 then you would use combustion. You could also 12 use thermal if you wanted to tweak something

13 there. 14 And then, for the larger ones, if 15 you wanted to use thermal but you also used 16 the combustion data point to shrink your 17 simulation for whatever, you could do that, 18 but you couldn't swap it as one of the ones.

19 Does that make sense? 20 MR. KLEISS: Right, right. We 21 wouldn't use a different test methodology --

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 112 1 MR. KLEISS: -- in order to 2 generate a data point, but we would want to 3 use a boiler that is outside of the range of 4 coverage in order to generate a data point to 5 validate that AEDM? 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think the answer 7 is yes. Perhaps we can look at what exactly 8 you are talking about. You know, there is no 9 problem with doing more, let's put it that 10 way. 11 MR. KLEISS: Okay. 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: It is just this is 13 the minimum set of requirements. As Frank 14 alluded to, we tried to keep them simple, 15 maybe too simple; I don't know. But we tried 16 to keep them simple. 17 MR. KLEISS: Yes, and this is not 18 a matter of trying, just saying we want to do 19 extra testing --

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: But -- 21 MR. KLEISS: -- but, rather -- 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Understanding.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 113 1 MR. KLEISS: -- we are bridging 2 some gaps, and we are wanting to make sure 3 that we can do the appropriate testing, but 4 without setting up more units than what we

5 have to.

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Sure. Sure. 7 Okay. Mark? 8 MR. FLY: Mark Fly with AAON. 9 On several of the HVAC products, 10 DOE has listed, basically grouped everything 11 up to 63 tons on products that traditionally 12 have not been under any kind of listing 13 program at near that high a rate. So, like 14 for water-source heat pumps, air-source heat 15 pumps, and some of these products, there are 16 not labs in existence that can test a 63-ton 17 air-source heat pump, independent or most 18 manufacturers. There may be some 19 manufacturers, but they don't really want to 20 test my equipment, and I don't really want

21 them to. 22 I think, on the upside, that is a

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 114 1 problem, that we do have a discontinuity 2 between the traditional AHRI rating standards 3 and the limits and what DOE has listed. 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. I am not 5 100 percent sure I understand you. So, 6 perhaps you and I can look at this table at 7 the break, so I do understand it, because I 8 think it is important. 9 Sure. Jill?

10 MS. HOOTMAN: What was the 11 methodology in picking the smallest and 12 largest of the basic model from a product 13 class? I guess I am asking that methodology 14 because usually in a lot of cases when you are 15 substantiating AEDMs and outliers that might 16 be causing conditions different, it is not 17 always the smallest and largest. It could very 18 well be a design issue within a product class 19 that you are then looking at. For instance, 20 it could be something like the cabinet size 21 and how much is being fit in that particular 22 cabinet size. And that might not fall in that

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 115 1 smallest and largest. So, if you are trying 2 to find what is defining the outliers of an 3 AEDM, smallest and largest isn't always it. 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. This is 5 Ashley. 6 I think we were trying to, for the 7 most part, bound the range. So, at this 8 point, if we open up the AEDM applicability 9 across the board -- you can use one AEDM for 10 everything, whether it is a 6-ton or a 69-ton 11 unit, I mean whatever it is. The idea here 12 would be getting a test point somewhere toward 13 the lower end of the range and somewhere 14 toward the higher end of the range to make 15 sure. And that is just one test. 16 If there is a different way to do 17 it or maybe a better way to do it, we are open 18 to it, but that is the idea. And this doesn't 19 show it on the -- it is 25 percent of the 20 largest basic model or the largest capacity, 21 because we do realize that the largest 22 capacity could be quite challenging, may not

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 116 1 even be built on a regular basis. 2 So, like I said, though, we are 3 open here. We were just trying to get some 4 sense of bounding, a range there, because of 5 opening up the scope to the wide range of 6 applicability there. 7 MR. NESHAN: Massoud Neshan, 8 Southern Store Fixtures. 9 The use of AEDM, at least for CRE, 10 was discussed about last year when we started 11 talking about how to reduce the burden of 12 testing on the basic model definition that 13 exists. My question is now for us, as a small 14 manufacturer, how this AEDM is going to help 15 us when I am designing one case, manufacturing 16 one case, selling one case. How is all this 17 process going to reduce that burden of 18 testing, question No. 1? 19 Specifically, you haven't even 20 defined the basic model yet again. I keep on 21 coming back to this because the foundation of 22 this thing is not settled yet and you are

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 117 1 talking about what we should be doing on the

2 10th floor. 3 So, what is AEDM? How is it going 4 to reduce the burden of testing on our kind of 5 equipment? 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. So, I don't 7 know off the top of my head all the product 8 lines and offerings. So, I am going to give 9 an example that is just theoretical here in

10 nature. 11 But say, as a commercial 12 refrigeration equipment manufacturer you 13 manufacture 100 different models, just 100 14 different models. Those span 20 different 15 equipment classes as defined by the standards. 16 So, they are either like semi-vertical, 17 vertical; they are opened or closed. They are 18 self-contained or remote. There's 20 there, 19 right? 20 So, of those 100, you need to test

21 20. Those 20 need to meet these 22 characteristics. Actually, it would be 21.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 118 1 The 21 need to meet these characteristics, and 2 the 79 others you could use the AEDM and not 3 test those. That is my example of how it 4 would work for your company. 5 I don't know if that example is a 6 good representation of your company, but that 7 is how it would work in theory. Okay? 8 MR. FLY: Mark Fly with AAON. 9 So, I am just trying to get my 10 head around this. Do you have to test the 11 largest and smallest in each class? Or you 12 just have to test one in each class and the 13 smallest and largest across a product line?

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: You have to test 15 one in each class and the highest and lowest 16 in the class with the highest sales volume. 17 MR. FLY: Okay. 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: I realize that 19 there is some confusion generally because 20 there are multiple classes that can span the 21 range, right? So, I get that part. That will 22 be something we need to clarify.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 119 1 MR. ROBERTS: This is Carl from

2 Zero Zone. 3 Just a quick comment on the last 4 item on slide 20 here, "The test data used for 5 substantiation must meet the applicable DOE 6 test procedure." We are constantly rewriting 7 the procedure. It is a moving target because 8 the equipment itself is a moving target. 9 It might make more sense to say 10 that the test data used for substantiation 11 must meet the applicable DOE testing procedure 12 or properly adjust to the applicable DOE 13 testing procedure. In other words, to adjust 14 the test data within the AEDM to represent the 15 current test procedure. 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: This is the first 17 time I have ever heard that our regulatory 18 program is a fast-moving target. 19 (Laughter.) 20 But I thank you for that, that 21 compliment. 22 I do want to point out that, when

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 120 1 we talk about it here, I realize that a lot of 2 your test procedures, due to either the great 3 work done by AHRI committees or ASHRAE 4 committees or IEC committees, whatever it may 5 be, it is constantly under revision or they 6 are thinking about changing things. 7 What we are talking about here is 8 the actual version in the DOE regs, which in 9 some cases is a moving target, but is a much 10 slower moving target than the ASHRAE 11 standards. You know, it is when DOE actually 12 issues a new final rule, we adopt it with a 13 compliance date of a new test procedure. That 14 is when whatever is in our regulations, if it 15 is different, if it causes changes in ratings, 16 if it is a different test procedure, those

17 base models would need to be retested. 18 So, that is what I meant there. 19 That doesn't mean we shouldn't consider other 20 things, and we are open to them. As you can 21 see, we are open to a lot of changes here, but 22 that is what the intention was there.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 121 1 Hang on one second. Let me get to 2 a couple of people on the phone because they 3 have been patiently waiting for a while. 4 So, Tom Petrosino, I apologize if 5 I am saying anyone's name wrong.

6 You should be on.

7 MR. PETROSINO: Yes. 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Hi.

9 MR. PETROSINO: Hello. 10 My question relates to the 11 highest-volume requirement for AEDM basic 12 model testing. If we did a test in 2009 using 13 the highest-volume basic model that year or 14 expected for that year, and this year it is no 15 longer the highest-volume basic model, but 16 still a valid basic model, do we have to 17 retest to replace that unit with today's 18 highest volume? 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, I would say 20 that we didn't specifically articulate one way 21 or the other. So, do you have a suggestion, 22 or does anyone else in the room have a

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 122 1 suggestion, as to whether it should be at the 2 time of substantiation, whatever the highest 3 sales volume is, or if that highest sales 4 volume changes over time, whether that should 5 also be lumped into the substantiation 6 package? 7 MR. PETROSINO: My suggestion is 8 that you not get into that kind of requirement 9 because it is a constantly-changing picture. 10 Would you have to monitor this daily, monthly, 11 yearly? I think as long as you did the AEDM 12 at a time and followed and it was applicable, 13 and you didn't subsequently discontinue that 14 model, and you have no other reason to repeat 15 an AEDM, then I think it should stay. 16 MS. BARHYDT: This is Laura 17 Barhydt with DOE. 18 In terms of the highest sales 19 volume, since it is tied to the product class 20 and not to a particular basic model, would 21 that reduce the need to test something new? 22 Does the highest sales volume product class

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 123 1 actually change that frequently? 2 MR. PETROSINO: The highest -- I 3 am not sure I understand that question. Are 4 you saying that, for a given product class, 5 you want the highest-volume product class unit

6 tested? I'm unclear. 7 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So, this is 8 different from the current CAC ARM provisions. 9 What this is proposing is that, if you have 10 models in multiple product classes, you look 11 at where your highest sales volume is. Is it 12 in the first product class, the second product 13 class, the third product class? Whichever one 14 has the highest sales volume, you select the 15 smallest and largest capacity basic models 16 from that product class. 17 And so, if your highest sales 18 volume remains in that product class, then 19 that is not something that is changing from 20 year to year, would be my guess. But 21 certainly that is something we would like more 22 information on.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 124 1 MR. PETROSINO: Actually, this is 2 related to distribution transformers. So, 3 that particular requirement would not apply. 4 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's correct. 6 MR. WILKINS: Question. Robert 7 Wilkins, Danfoss. 8 Could you apply some tolerance 9 there on these kinds of things, maybe a little 10 clause that says highest volume within the 11 past three years or "X" years? So that you 12 are not constantly having to shift from one, 13 and, oh, my God, that shifted back to the 14 other, and now I've got to redo it again. 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: Sure. Or, I mean, 16 one of the reasons we migrated, I think, to 17 the highest sales volume product class, 18 because we didn't think it was as much of a 19 moving target as highest sales volume model. 20 But that being said, sure, there is always 21 ways for improvement. 22 MR. KLEISS: There is a potential

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 125 1 pit there in terms of the boilers. I would 2 say that the highest sales volume boilers -- 3 well, no, I'm sorry. I'm thinking of 4 residential. This only applies to commercial. 5 (Laughter.) 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: We're okay? Okay. 7 Thank you. 8 Frank? And then, we will go 9 across. Or either one. 10 MR. LORD: I think you are right. 11 Take, for example, we do an AEDM on packaged 12 rooftops. It goes 65 to 760,000, less than 13 65, or say it goes 65 to 760,000; 65 to 135 is 14 always going to be the highest sales line. It 15 is never going to change, not in that 16 category, yes. 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. Thank you.

18 Frank? 19 MR. STANONIK: Yes, I would 20 suggest that we should look at this as kind of 21 analogous to certification versus 22 verification, certification of a model versus

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 126 1 verification of your production. 2 The AEDM has to be substantiated 3 as a valid tool. Okay? Whenever you do that, 4 it only makes sense that you want to have that 5 justification based on, let's just call it 6 your most popular models. You want to have 7 the closest correlation to the things you sell 8 the most of. Okay? 9 But once you have got that 10 substantiation, once you have determined, 11 okay, I have a good tool and it meets the 12 requirements of, let's say, acceptable 13 predictability, or whatever, it is a valid 14 tool until something changes relative to 15 either test procedures or the minimums, or 16 whatever, or you totally redo your product 17 line or something. 18 But I don't think there is 19 inherently a requirement here for, let's say, 20 continued substantiation. Verification of 21 your AEDM will occur as you go forward and 22 models are tested under whatever program, you

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 127 1 know, randomly-selected models, or whatever. 2 And that will either show that your AEDM was 3 proper or not. 4 But substantiation, I think we 5 should consider as a one-time thing until 6 circumstances change. As a one-time thing, it 7 should be based on, again, those things that 8 you sell most of. 9 MR. FLY: Mark Fly with AAON. 10 I think one of the concerns here, 11 especially in the substantiation, is not that 12 we think that we are going to have a big 13 tolerance on our AEDM, because if you put the 14 same numbers in, you get the same numbers out 15 every time. 16 But the test data, if we have a 17 large tolerance like we talked about 18 previously in the test data that falls 19 outside, say, that 5 percent range, that is 20 going to make it very hard to validate that 21 AEDM or get that AEDM to tune within the 22 average of these five or ten or twenty tests

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 128 1 that we have got. 2 So, the tolerance on the AEDM is 3 really driven by the tolerance on the test 4 more than anything else, assuming that we can 5 all model our equipment and get it close to 6 the reality, once we have the test data to do 7 it with. 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right, and the 9 tolerance on the test I think is already 10 established in our regs, right? I mean, that 11 is the 95 percent confidence limit thing, and 12 that is established. 13 MR. FLY: But what's behind that, 14 and is that really the right number?

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: I understand. I 16 mean, I get that part, but that is 17 established. 18 So, let me jump to one on the 19 phone. Can you unmute Ron? 20 So, Ron, you should be unmuted

21 now. 22 MR. SHEBIK: Hi, Ashley. I am

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 129 1 sorry, I wanted to go back to your scenario. 2 You ran with 100 different models and how that 3 compares to what is outlined on page 20. 4 I may have misunderstood or may 5 have missed something, but you said there was 6 100 different models. And of those 100 7 different models, they are represented by 20 8 different equipment classifications. 9 Based on that, you came up with 10 you test 21 cases. But when you look at page 11 20, it says you are testing a minimum of five 12 basic models, including at least one from each 13 product class. So, I just want to make sure I 14 understand. How are you equating the 20 15 different equipment classifications to your 16 basic models? Are you saying there's four 17 product classes?

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: No. 19 MR. SHEBIK: Or are you saying the 20 classification is equal to a basic model? 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. So, what I 22 said was the 100 models span 20 equipment

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 130 1 classes. The first requirement on there means 2 you need to test at least one from each 3 equipment class, which would get you 20 that 4 you would have to test, because there's 20 5 different equipment classes for those 100

6 models. 7 And then, No. 3, test the smallest 8 and the 25 percent of the largest capacity, 9 which would get you two units from one 10 equipment class. So, that would add one more. 11 So, you would test 21 of those 100, and then 12 you could rate with 79, with the rest. 13 MR. SHEBIK: Okay. So, the 14 equipment classification is equivalent to a 15 product classification? 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Product class, 17 correct. Equipment class and product class 18 are synonymous. One is commercial; one is 19 residential. Sorry. Yes. 20 MR. SHEBIK: Okay. That is my 21 confusion. Okay. Thank you. 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Thank you.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 131 1 MR. DAUGHERTY: Roger Daugherty, 2 Baldor Electric. 3 I don't know if it might help if 4 you sort of consider what has been going on 5 with electric motors. Since 1999, we have 6 been using this concept of the AEDM. It has 7 the rule of trying to select at least one of 8 the basic models from the highest volume of

9 motor. 10 When you realize that once you 11 have substantiated the AEDM, the manufacturer 12 is using that AEDM not only to design motors 13 that are in compliance with the efficiency 14 standard level, but also with those motors 15 that have to comply by being higher than that

16 level. 17 So, when the next final rule came 18 out more recently that raised those levels for 19 electric motors, that same AEDM is applicable. 20 There has been no change in the technology. 21 There is no change in how you calculate the 22 losses. The only change is in how much

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 132 1 material you put in to meet the new efficiency

2 standards. 3 But that motor that you may be 4 designing is the same one that you designed in 5 1999 for that same efficiency level. So, the 6 fact that the standards changed really had no 7 effect on the AEDM or its model. And so, 8 consideration should really be given that, 9 unless there is a real change in technology or 10 the test standard, and not necessarily the 11 efficiency standards, that you should not have 12 to resubstantiate the AEDM just for changes in

13 the standards. 14 But, again, I encourage you. This 15 has been in place. It has been working very 16 well since 1999. Look at the way that has 17 been working. That might help you towards 18 some of these other products. 19 MS. BARHYDT: This is Laura 20 Barhydt at DOE. 21 One point I want to clarify is 22 that let's say you had tested five models that

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 133 1 were all below the change in standards. Then, 2 when the standard changed, you would end up 3 with an AEDM that had no test data that 4 actually showed a motor that met the new 5 standard. If you had three motors that were

6 below the new standard and two that were above 7 the new standard, but that had been tested 8 back before the new standards came into 9 effect, you would effectively have two tests 10 that could continue to be used to substantiate 11 the AEDM. You would just have to test three 12 new motors to replace those three that didn't

13 meet the standard. 14 So, this proposal -- and this 15 would apply to all the different product types 16 -- the idea is that, if you have some of your 17 tests underlying your AEDM that were well 18 above the standard, and the standard changes, 19 those wouldn't necessarily be kicked out. You 20 could continue to use those. It is just that 21 anything that didn't meet the standard could 22 not continue to be used to substantiate that

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 134 1 AEDM.

2 Does that make sense? 3 MR. DAUGHERTY: But Roger 4 Daugherty, if I could follow up on that, 5 though. But when you substantiate the AEDM, 6 you substantiated it, and, technically, 7 usually, there are some motors that are tested 8 that use a higher efficiency because at that 9 time those might have been the ones that had 10 the highest volume of sale. 11 But the AEDM is a set of 12 calculations and simulations that determine 13 how losses are calculated. As I said, that 14 technology doesn't change just because you 15 change the efficiency level. It only changes 16 the components that you put in and the size of 17 those components. 18 So, if that AEDM was substantiated 19 by testing to those motors that had efficiency 20 standards of 1992 that were in EPAct, and it 21 worked for the motors that have premium 22 efficiency levels, which are those that were

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 135 1 put in EISA in 2007, and it has been working 2 since 1999, then why does it not continue to 3 work just because you change the standards? 4 There has been no change in technology, no 5 change in the test standard, no change in 6 anything. 7 So, if the manufacturer has been 8 in total compliance with those premium 9 efficiency motors using that AEDM, why would 10 there be an issue now that, just because you 11 change the standards and eliminated the 12 production or distribution of motors of the 13 lower efficiency levels below the premium 14 levels, that that raises any issue at all with 15 respect to the AEDM? 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. Harvey. 17 MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs, ACEEE. 18 I have found this dialog just now 19 between Laura and Roger to be very 20 instructive. I would like to try to translate 21 into terms that some of the rest of us may 22 think about.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 136 1 In particular, what I am hearing 2 from Roger, as I am looking at polyphase 3 induction motors as one large class, and I am 4 saying that my simulation model for those will 5 extrapolate well, that is, behave well, beyond 6 the calibration dataset, which may not have 7 included motors of as high efficiency as we 8 are now selling. 9 And I am hearing DOE implicitly 10 not ready to accept, and perhaps not 11 understanding, as I don't, the limits of what 12 that smooth extrapolation might look like. 13 For example, again, in the motors class, it is 14 not clear to me that this simulation for 15 polyphase induction motors would work well on 16 some other class of motors, that it would be 17 applicable, just as I earlier asked whether an 18 AEDM applicable to an electric resistance tank 19 water heater would necessarily be applicable 20 to a condensing-gas tankless. 21 So, I think that is where our 22 misunderstanding is at this point. I hope

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 137 1 that is a helpful observation. 2 MR. VerSHAW: Jim VerShaw, 3 Ingersoll Rand. 4 You know, when you think about -- 5 and I will bring it back to air conditioning, 6 what I know best. So, you have got the 7 compressor and a couple of coils and some 8 airflow, and whether it makes 13 SEER or 22 9 SEER, it is the same basic engine. So, if the 10 standard currently is a 13, if it goes to 14,

11 and because we had to do a lot of 13s because 12 they are the highest sales volume, we were 13 using that rating to do, that AEDM or ARM to 14 do all those other ones. And it fundamentally 15 doesn't change the physics. Now, if I put in 16 a microchannel heat exchanger or if I put in 17 some other new technology, that is another 18 whole thing. 19 But the point, I think, at least 20 from our aspect, if you are not changing 21 technology, I am not sure why a change in 22 standards or a model that drops out of

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 138 1 production is going to disqualify the AEDM. 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: But, Harvey, can I 3 actually chime in on that one real quick? 4 That's fine. You can go next. 5 I guess from the Department's 6 perspective, we based it off standards, 7 understanding that technology changes may be

8 needed to meet those standards. We don't 9 actually know when a technology change will 10 occur. We know when the efficiency level is 11 going to change. 12 We don't necessarily know when the 13 technology is going to change. And that 14 technology change may be different timing-wise 15 for different manufacturers. So, we don't 16 know, like in your example, when a 17 manufacturer is going to employ, say, 18 microchannels to meet a given standard level 19 or make that migration or a different type of

20 motors. 21 And so, what we were trying to do 22 here is just make sure that the AEDM is

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 139 1 current, that we don't have a situation for 2 which the AEDM was substantiated in 1950 and 3 hasn't been touched since. 4 And maybe that is okay that it 5 hasn't been touched since or maybe it isn't. 6 But that is for comment. 7 Harvey, do you want to go back 8 since I kind of cut you off? 9 MR. VerSHAW: Well, first, 1950 10 wasn't that long ago. 11 (Laughter.) 12 It depends on your perspective. 13 MR. WILKINS: Robert Wilkins,

14 Danfoss. 15 I think I understand your concern 16 about extrapolation of performance outside of 17 a certain range. I think the people have 18 commented that maybe there is really not much 19 difference between a 13 SEER unit and a 14 20 SEER unit. And so, why prohibit 21 extrapolation? 22 But if you are going from 13 SEER

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 140 1 to 18 SEER, then you are deploying other 2 technologies. You may have microchannel heat 3 exchangers. You may have variable-speed 4 compressors. 5 But maybe the answer is not to 6 prohibit extrapolation, but put some bounds on 7 it. So that maybe a bound of "X" percent 8 improvement in efficiency would force the 9 elimination of the extrapolation or a change 10 in basic technology in the unit. Just add a 11 little flexibility to it maybe is the point.

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Sure. Go ahead. 13 MR. LORD: Yes, Dick Lord with 14 Carrier. 15 What may be confusing a lot of 16 people is that there are a lot of ways to 17 approach an AEDM. Some of us think it is a 18 full physics-based model with all the heat 19 transfer coefficients. Somebody might take a 20 simplistic approach and just say, "I've got a 21 bunch of ratings. I am going to put factors 22 up and down as I add features." And then, I

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 141 1 could see you would want to substantiate it 2 because your base has changed. 3 So, a lot of depends on how you do 4 your AEDM. You guys are not going to know 5 that. So, you kind of in a way have to do 6 what you are doing really. 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. Thank you. 8 Go ahead. And then, I am going to 9 go to the phone. 10 MR. DAUGHERTY: Roger Daugherty, 11 Baldor Electric. 12 I would just like to answer that 13 the idea of extrapolation doesn't apply to the 14 electric motors and small electric motors, at 15 least as far as I know the AEDMs are. If you 16 want more efficiency and you put in more 17 material, if you put in six inches of core 18 instead of five, you determine the losses in 19 that six inches of core instead of the five. 20 You account for the change in 21 copper wire that you had to put in. You 22 account for the changes in the aluminum that

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 142 1 you had to put in the rotor. You are 2 calculating five different losses in that 3 machine and adding them up, and they are all 4 very well-defined calculations and physics 5 involved. There is no extrapolation that goes

6 on. 7 Maybe part of the problem here is 8 that we have not gotten to it yet, but the 9 other part in Part 431 for electric motors and 10 small electric motors is the revalidation that 11 is done. And maybe that is where, by 12 continuing to validate the AEDM over time, 13 rather than go back and say, because the 14 standard changed, now you suddenly have to go 15 back and retest a certain number of models, 16 and right now it is annual for electric 17 motors. But this continual revalidation of 18 the AEDM would take care of the issue of the 19 AEDM being up-to-date when there are changes 20 in standards, efficiency standards, and 21 changes in test standards. 22 Thank you.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 143 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. So, before 2 I follow up on that idea, I am going to go to 3 the phone for two things. 4 One, Kunal Kapoor. 5 Can you please unmute that line? 6 Okay. You should be good. 7 MR. KAPOOR: Yes. Hi. Ron Shebik 8 already asked the same question I wanted to 9 ask. So, no more questions at this time. 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: Oh, okay. Thank 11 you. 12 Aaron Meyers? 13 MR. MEYERS: Thanks for taking my 14 question. 15 My question is really related to 16 timing as it relates to the highest-volume 17 production basic model, or whatever, being 18 tested, coupled with a change in the 19 efficiency standard. 20 So, just to give you an example on 21 this from the distribution transformer world, 22 under normal operating conditions, the highest

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 144 1 basic model for our company -- it may or may 2 not be this, but it is a very popular one -- 3 would be 25 kVA, single-phase, with a primary 4 voltage of 7200 volts, secondary of 122/40, 95 5 kV BIL. And the efficiency level would be the 6 absolute minimum required by the DOE, so

7 98.91. 8 Now, if the efficiency level 9 changes in 2016 -- say it goes up to 99 -- our 10 most popular basic model from the last 12 11 months will be a non-compliant basic model. 12 So, my question is, do we substantiate with 13 the highest-volume basic model from the 14 previous year, which would be non-compliant? 15 I don't think that is an option, from what I 16 am hearing. 17 Or the second option would be, do 18 we take that basic configuration, so 25 kVA, 19 7200 volts, 122/40, 95 kVA or kV BIL, and say, 20 okay, do I test that configuration with the 21 new efficiency level? Because when we migrate 22 to 2016, that will most likely be the highest

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 145 1 volume. Or do I look at what the highest 2 volume was of a product that met the new 3 standard, but in late 2015, so that I can 4 continue using an AEDM once the new standard 5 goes into effect? 6 And that could be just based on 7 random luck, some customer who is buying a 8 higher-efficiency unit than what is required 9 by the standard 2015. And then, it would drop 10 off the face of the earth in terms of 11 production volume once the new standard goes 12 into effect. So, there is really a lot of 13 uncertainty there. 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. Thanks,

15 Aaron.

16 MR. MEYERS: I know that was a 17 mouthful. I don't know how you want to answer 18 it, if you have clarifying questions. 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: I am going to try 20 to answer it. We are going to see. 21 So, that is one of the reasons why 22 we put "or the basic model which is expected

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 1461 to have the highest sales volume for newly2 introduced basic models." And maybe it needs 3 to be expanded not only for newly, but 4 continuation of existing. That is something 5 we could do. But it would be your estimation 6 of what you think the highest sales volume 7 would be over the next year from when those 8 standards come into effect, so that you could 9 continue with your AEDM. It would not be the 10 non-compliant model. 11 MR. DAUGHERTY: Roger Daugherty, 12 Baldor Electric. 13 Maybe what is being overlooked is 14 you have a very important paragraph in a 15 conclusion of this section that you didn't put 16 on your slide. And that is down on page 17 32056, under 429.75, and follow all the stuff, 18 but it is the bottom of the left column. 19 "In any instance where it is not 20 possible for a manufacturer to select basic 21 models for testing in accordance with all of 22 these criteria, the criteria shall be given

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 147 1 priority in the order in which they were 2 listed. Within the limits imposed by the 3 criteria, basic models shall be selected 4 randomly." 5 So, if you read that, that may 6 overcome some of the obstacles that are being 7 imposed here, trying to follow every one of 8 these items exactly. 9 MR. KLEISS: Jeff Kleiss with A.O. 10 Smith and Lochinvar. 11 When you were going through the 12 example, you know, your theoretical example 13 with the coolers, I feel like I don't 14 understand what I thought I understood about 15 the process. 16 So, for our example with the 17 boilers, dealing with commercial products, 18 there are two different product classes, if I 19 understand correctly. There would be the 20 large and the small. 21 So, based on that, and say I have 22 eight different families of models, are we

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 148 1 required to run only five tests, so that we 2 would do two to substantiate our AEDM on the 3 highest-volume product family, and then that 4 AEDM could be applied to both different 5 product classes and the eight different model 6 groups? 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. So, not 8 quite, but almost. 9 MR. KLEISS: Okay. 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, I am not sure 11 I agree with the premise that there is only -- 12 well, currently, there may be only two product 13 classes for boilers. We should look at the 14 product classes for commercial boilers. Hot 15 water/steam, that impacts it as well. So, I 16 am not sure I agree with you that that is the 17 premise. 18 But if I did and it was two, your 19 example, the number is six; it is not five. 20 And it is six because the highest sales volume 21 and the lowest has to be from the same. Well, 22 I guess it could be five. It could be five.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 149 1 I'm sorry. It could be five; you're right. 2 So, you've got it. But I think your premise 3 of two is not right. 4 MR. KLEISS: Okay. 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: And I can show you 6 that in the regs. 7 MR. KLEISS: Okay.

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. 9 MR. KLEISS: But, just to be 10 clear, we don't even have to provide test data 11 from every family of models -- 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: No. Once you have 13 five, you can go. 14 MR. KLEISS: Okay. Thank you. 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: Unless, I mean, 16 are you proposing something, that the 17 Department consider something different? 18 (Laughter.) 19 MR. KLEISS: No. No, it is just 20 -- thank you. 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, you support 22 this as written, kind of?

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 150 1 MR. KLEISS: Yes, I do. 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. Thank you.

3 Frank? 4 MR. STANONIK: Well, I don't want 5 to lose sight of this. But that puts a 6 significant responsibility on the manufacturer 7 to have a very robust AEDM. In your example, 8 that would be able to encompass those eight 9 model families. Okay? I mean, so it is not a 10 trivial thing. 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: I will say, just 12 as a follow-on, that with the rest of those 13 model families, it is your responsibility to 14 make sure those tolerances are kept. If you 15 happen to do checking or whatever, if anyone 16 else did checking, the 5 percent would need to 17 come in. But the substantiation requirements 18 for that example would be five. 19 Let's go here, and then we will go 20 to Karim. 21 MR. HON: Okay. I have some very 22 serious negative comments about this project

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 151 1 so far because a lot of the products that are 2 on the market today are already regulated and 3 standardized, and the testing should have 4 already been completed for hundreds of models, 5 not just a few.

6 That means that several of us who 7 have what we would consider base models in the 8 hundreds have already expended huge amounts of 9 capital to develop information bases. And 10 this is opening a can of worms that will be 11 unbelievable because the next question I have 12 for you is, how are we going to have, shall we 13 say, protest of someone else's product? 14 Because the minute you start this 15 modeling that you are doing here, you are 16 going to open the can of worms that I don't 17 know that the government can control, that we 18 can come in and show that our competition is 19 not within 5 percent or some target number of 20 theirs. 21 And then, we are going to have 22 this context started that no one will ever

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 152 1 stop on what is accurately rated, because 2 their models aren't any good. There are some 3 very unusual models in our industry that are 4 very difficult to model. If I test one of 5 those and come up with some idea of how it 6 fits with all the other models, it may consume 7 twice as much energy per unit as one, and then 8 the next one which may be a little different, 9 even though it fits in the same, quote, 10 "category," it may have twice as much glass 11 surface area on it, which means it is far less 12 efficient. 13 But in the models, if you are only 14 testing one unit, how do you know how that is? 15 Your physics has to have a basis on science 16 and tests. This is so broad and so 17 encompassing when you have such vast product 18 differences. 19 If you are a motor manufacturer, 20 the motor manufacturer controls the components 21 much more tightly than those of us who buy 22 componentry and assemble the equipment. We do

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 153 1 not have control of the compressor. We can 2 specify compressors. We do not necessarily 3 have control, complete control, of the way the 4 coils are built. We do not have complete 5 control of several other components in the 6 system, some of the controls sometimes. And 7 any of these variables can suddenly blow up in 8 our face. That is the nature of it. And so, 9 we have constant, ongoing testing. 10 But this system could be relying 11 on 10-year data, but all these variables may 12 have changed. Without a consistent program of 13 verification, without a consistent program set 14 up so that protests can be built into it, we 15 are just opening the door to do whatever 16 anybody wants to do. 17 MR. AMRANE: I have a different 18 question, related but different, though. And 19 I am sorry if this question was addressed

20 before; I was out of the room for a half an

21 hour or so. 22 I think, as I read the NOPR, it

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 154 1 says that you have to test a minimum of five 2 models, five different basic models to 3 substantiate AEDM. But let's say we have a 4 small manufacturer, and that small 5 manufacturer has only two basic models. 6 It was already addressed? I'm 7 sorry. Oh, we think alike? Okay. 8 (Laughter.) 9 So, I don't want to repeat the 10 question then. 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: That is good for 12 interoffice dynamics. 13 MR. AMRANE: But I think we need 14 to revisit that because it doesn't make a lot 15 of sense to ask a manufacturer with two basic 16 models to test five units of the same two 17 basic models. 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, I guess I 19 am going to turn the question around. This 20 does not indicate that the Department is not 21 open to providing something like that. 22 But if you only had two basic

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 155 1 models, is it really worth the resources to 2 come up with a simulation as compared to just 3 testing it? I mean, are those provisions 4 actually necessary? 5 I guess my preconceived notion 6 would be it would be just easier to test them. 7 But if there are just really two, and that is 8 all you are going to offer -- I mean, this is 9 really, you know -- 10 MR. STANONIK: Absolutely. What 11 resonated with me is more -- well, let's use 12 as an example Jeff's boilers, okay? Let's say 13 you have a boiler company that has been making 14 traditionally atmospherically-vented products. 15 Okay? 16 And at some point, they are 17 developing a line of condensing boilers. 18 Okay? And so, initially, this first offering 19 is going to be five basic models with 20 condensing boilers. 21 In that kind of a circumstance 22 where the company is, let's say, evolving its

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 156 1 product line, that would possibly require a 2 new AEDM. Okay? And in that kind of 3 situation, to me, it would make sense to say, 4 wait a minute, I shouldn't necessarily have to 5 test all five to create, to substantiate the 6 AEDM for this, in my case, this new technology 7 that I am now making part of my product line. 8 So, that is kind of more the 9 situation I was thinking about. Again, 10 granted, it is going to be somewhat unusual 11 because, obviously, you succeed in business by 12 offering more models, I think, you know, 13 having more flexibility for what your

14 customers want. 15 But I think it is something we 16 will try to work up a proposal that will fit.

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. I am 18 actually going to ask some questions in the 19 room. For those of you that may use 20 simulations now to rate the equipment, either 21 for residential settings or for commercial 22 settings, do you have like one, what I would

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 157 1 call, AEDM and multiple different modules, 2 either technology or whatever? Is it really 3 one AEDM or do you have like a lot of 4 different ones? And maybe it is variable 5 depending on industry or by manufacturer 6 choice. But I kind of want to know what you

7 do now. 8 MR. LORD: I think we have tools 9 -- this is Dick Lord of Carrier -- we have 10 tools for designing equipment that can predict 11 performance over a broad range from full load 12 to part load. 13 What we are talking about is 14 probably a different tool that we use for an 15 AEDM that is tailored to just the specific 16 ratings that are being certified. So, it is 17 not going to be one and the same. 18 We were discussing this the other 19 day. We may have one AEDM; we may have 20 multiple AEDMs, depending on how broad we want 21 to do it and how many units we are going to

22 test.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 158 1 I mean, we like the flexibility of 2 the way you have outlined it. It gives us the 3 prerogative on how to do it. 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. 5 MR. VerSHAW: Jim VerShaw, 6 Ingersoll Rand. 7 For residential products, we have 8 a design tool that predicts performance, and 9 it is a 2x2 heavy-duty calculation method that 10 we have adapted with other -- I didn't write 11 it; you know, I am still in Fortran. So, it 12 has got other subroutines on there that will 13 bring in the highest sales test, the sales 14 volume combination, make the adjustments so 15 that the curves go through that point, so we 16 follow the ARM requirements. 17 And then, we also build in some 18 adjustments for issues we find lab-to-lab. 19 So, it brings it down a little bit, depending 20 upon what it is. 21 So, it is fundamentally the same 22 tool we use for design, but it has got other

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 159 1 things added onto it, so we can use it to put 2 ratings out. 3 MR. KLEISS: Jeff Kleiss with 4 Lochinvar. 5 This could apply to multiple 6 different boiler manufacturers, but, 7 typically, we would test bookends for each 8 different product family and then do linear 9 interpolation between the two, possibly 10 testing an intermediate size; either that or 11 else test each individual model within a 12 product family.

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Sure.

14 MR. ROBERTS: Carl from Zero Zone. 15 In our case, in commercial 16 refrigeration equipment, certain terms within 17 the AEDM change with some of the design 18 choices. So, the answer to the question would 19 be we have several different AEDMs. 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. I just have 21 one other question. I mean, it sounds 22 generally like maybe the majority of you may

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 160 1 not have all the testing that would meet this 2 criteria done already, but you may be a good 3 way down that pathway. Is that a fair 4 characterization? I mean, I don't think we 5 were writing requirements necessarily that 6 would make you start from ground zero. 7 MR. VerSHAW: Well, I guess I came 8 in thinking we had to have third-party testing 9 for this because that is the way the ARMS is. 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: No third-party 11 testing.

12 MR. VerSHAW: But we have a lot 13 more testing that we are comfortable with. 14 Our biggest issue is going to come in the next 15 section, where we are doing verification 16 testing and the lab-to-lab issues and all 17 that. That is where, actually, we have more 18 trouble than anything else. 19 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes, I would agree 20 on the commercial side we have this. 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. 22 MR. LORD: This is Dick Lord,

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 161 1 Carrier. 2 The same thing for us. One 3 question I had for you, though. If you have a 4 product that has two metrics, I assume you 5 will still only have to use one unit to get 6 the two metrics? Say, for example, a heat 7 pump that has got a cooling and a heating --

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct. 9 MR. LORD: Okay. 10 MR. KLEISS: I will say, within 11 the boiler industry, often there are data 12 points that are available to substantiate 13 things. The problem is having the appropriate14 documentation to say that we have properly15 calibrated instruments that generated that 16 data. That kind of support is often not going

17 to be there. 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. Thank you. 19 MR. AMRANE: Karim Amrane, AHRI. 20 Well, that is a product like, for 21 example, walk-ins, which we don't have yet --

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Sure.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 162 1 MR. AMRANE: -- conservation

2 standards. 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. 4 MR. AMRANE: So, there is not much

5 data out there. 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. 7 MR. AMRANE: So, don't assume that 8 everybody is on the same level playing field. 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: Definitely. 10 Definitely. No.

11 Yes?

12 MR. ROBERTS: Carl from Zero Zone. 13 I think it is fair to say that 14 this proposal is written in such a way that we 15 are partway there. 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Part? Part, we 17 will take it. We will take something. 18 MS. HOOTMAN: Ashley?

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: Sure. 20 MS. HOOTMAN: Jill Hootman from

21 Trane. 22 One thing that I did remember, you

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 163 1 know, yes, we have tools, and our AEDM is fit 2 around both air-cooled and water-cooled and 3 water-source heat pumps. I would say that 4 most of the other water-source heat pumps 5 manufacturers are probably not at the same 6 point. 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. Thank you. 8 Okay. So, any other last-minute 9 comments on selecting units? 10 (No response.) 11 So, I will, since someone brought 12 it up, I will go ahead and open the floor. 13 Do you guys want to break for 14 lunch or do you want to keep going? It is

15 noon now. 16 Well, one, two, three, four, five, 17 six, seven more, eight more slides. Now, that 18 being said, probably at least an hour, if I 19 had to guess. Two? Really? Okay, maybe two 20 hours. Two hours maybe. 21 Lunch? All right, we will break 22 for lunch. We will be back here at one

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 164 1 o'clock. So, an hour. Is that okay? 2 The cafeteria is downstairs. 3 There is a Subway all the way down. And then, 4 if you need to go to the cafeteria, you have 5 to go to the first floor, down, and around, is 6 the best way I can explain. 7 (Whereupon, the foregoing matter 8 went off the record for lunch at 12:01 p.m. 9 and went back on the record at 1:07 p.m.)

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### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 166 1 A-F-T-E-R-N-O-O-N S-E-S-S-I-O-N 2 1:07 p.m. 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. Welcome 4 back. I hope everyone had a pretty good lunch 5 here at the DOE cafeteria or Subway. 6 We are going to move right into 7 the number of testing rounds. So, current 8 regulations -- and this was something brought 9 up earlier for motors, which require one round 10 for substantiation and, then, subsequent 11 rounds or even on a regular basis, multiple 12 rounds of what we would call the verification 13 testing over time against your AEDM. 14 And the Department proposed to get 15 rid of the second round of testing for what 16 you would call subsequent verification of the 17 AEDM and the NOPR, and add in requirements 18 which would, for all intents and purposes, 19 require that the models underlying the 20 substantiation be current. So, recognizing 21 that that, in and of itself, would require 22 some probably testing over time.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 167 1 So, what I am going to do is open 2 the floor to the idea of not doing subsequent 3 rounds of verification or even an annual basis 4 of verification testing for your AEDM on a 5 subset of models. And instead, leaving those 6 requirements that we talked about before we 7 took a break on the books or weighting those

8 two. 9 So, I will open it up at this 10 point. Anybody? Do we agree with the 11 proposal?

12 PARTICIPANT: We do. 13 (Laughter.) 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. 15 MR. GARST: Yes, Mike with Lennox. 16 We agree. No second rounds

17 needed. 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: And so, you would 19 be more in favor of requirements which apply 20 to the models required for substantiation, 21 keeping those current, rather than requiring 22 periodic review and verification of an AEDM?

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 168 1 I imagine there might be some 2 differences of opinion, depending on product 3 type. And maybe not.

4 Sure. 5 MR. HON: In a dynamic market, I 6 don't know how you can possibly expect a 7 simple computer model to maintain itself 8 without some verification, with all the 9 engineering changes that are going on in some 10 markets. In our market, I know that is a 11 fact. There are so many new compressors 12 coming out, so many new fan motors coming out, 13 so many new coils coming out, and iterations 14 of all that, if you don't verify them, I don't 15 know how you are going to defend your 16 position. 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. So, that 18 was Charlie from True. 19 MR. HON: Charlie Hon.

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: And I have a 21 question, actually, a follow-up question to 22 that, or to anyone else who wants to speak to

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 169 1 this. So, if we do do some type of periodic 2 review or verification, there are two ways we 3 could look at this. One is that we keep the 4 tolerances intact. And obviously, the 5 tolerances stay, and we leave it to the 6 manufacturers' discretion how many units they 7 may want to test and check over time. That is 8 one way. That is the way it has been done 9 here. There is no formal requirements, 10 acknowledging that manufacturers will probably 11 do some type of audits to make sure their AEDM 12 is valid over time. 13 Or we could do a more formalized 14 proposal where the Department actually has 15 certain set of requirements that apply on an 16 annual basis for subsequent verification and 17 for new models that may come out or changes 18 that will be made over time. And maybe annual 19 is not the right number. Maybe three years is 20 the right number, maybe five years, whatever 21 it may be. 22 But I am asking for different

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 170 1 opinions and pros and cons and ideas for what 2 maybe the Department should consider with 3 respect to those. 4 Sure, go ahead, Frank. 5 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik,

6 AHRI. 7 I am fully aware this is not part 8 of this rulemaking, but the question you raise 9 leads right to that point, that if there is 10 recognition of VICPs it changes your question 11 a lot because, in fact, if a company is 12 participating in a VICP, there inherently will 13 be, I will call it, continuous validation of 14 whatever AEDM they used because the ratings of 15 a particular model will either be verified or

16 not. 17 And so, it is difficult to answer 18 your question right now because, according to 19 DOE's current schedule, VICP is another 20 rulemaking, right? 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, it is. It is 22 another currently ongoing rulemaking. And as

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 171 1 we learned this morning, speed of light here. 2 But I do have a question for you. 3 That is great for those who participate in 4 what we would call a voluntary industry 5 program right now. And perhaps when we go 6 down the pathway of looking at those more 7 specifically in our regulations, that is one 8 thing. 9 Do you think that that requirement 10 should be applicable to a manufacturer across 11 the board? In other words, either the VICP 12 does it or a certain percentage of models 13 should be verified, period? 14 MR. STANONIK: Going out a little 15 bit on a limb here, I think the answer is, 16 yes, in the same way that if a manufacturer -- 17 forget the current subject, okay. But if I am 18 manufacturing something, and I am interested 19 in just putting out a product that meets my 20 design, I have my own internal QC, right? It 21 is hard to imagine the modern-day manufacturer 22 doesn't have some level of QC that checks

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 172 1 their production. 2 So, I would say, just taking that 3 basic concept, I could see where it would 4 apply to efficiency ratings and, then, the

5 AEDM. 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: This is Ashley

7 from DOE. 8 Just a follow-on, as Mr. Daugherty 9 explained earlier, for motors we have 10 something more formal where there is like this 11 periodic verification that is required. I 12 guess, are you advocating that that actually 13 is a requirement? Or should it be left to the 14 risk and discretion of the manufacturer? 15 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik,

16 AHRI. 17 I think, because, again, we are 18 talking about a huge variety of products, I 19 think in terms of DOE's regulation, it should 20 be left to the manufacturer to determine what 21 is the proper level of checking, whatever we 22 are going to call that. Motors may be a

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 173 1 unique situation, which I am not very familiar 2 with. 3 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes, yes. Jill 4 Hootman, Trane. 5 I would agree with what you said. 6 I think it is the risk of the manufacturer. 7 They have to determine -- I mean, obviously, 8 federal penalties are onerous. So, I mean, 9 you are going to determine some way to 10 continually upgrade and continually maintain 11 an AEDM in order to hold that risk inside, 12 internal to your company. 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. Thank you. 14 Sure, Charlie? 15 MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon, 16 True Manufacturing. 17 We basically worked on a 18 statistical maneuver here to reduce testing. 19 You are taking it from -- for us, it would be, 20 giving a basic idea, we would be going from 21 700 basic models, which would fit into 20 22 different categories, and right now we are

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 174 1 required to do two per. So, over 1400 tests 2 which have pretty much been completed; now go 3 back and we could come up with 20 tests, 4 highest volume, 21 samples. From 1400 to 21 5 is a huge reduction in validity. And now not 6 certify those? Not have an ongoing basis for

7 that? I don't understand that at all. I am 8 just totally befuddled by this whole thing. 9 I can understand it used on 10 certain applications and a need for certain 11 applications, but how can you possibly turn, 12 unless we have arduous and very strict 13 enforcement, so that there is constant testing 14 of product -- without that, we have 15 competitors who cheat every day; we know that. 16 They are thick. They are blatant. And the 17 Department is well aware of some of them 18 through the Energy Star programs and through 19 just basic testing, in California problems 20 that have developed. 21 So, they know that our industry is 22 dirty. And yet, now we are going to have,

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 175 1 well, industry will monitor itself. That is 2 tough to believe because right now we are not. 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. Paul? 4 MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel with 5 Mitsubishi. 6 I think that there probably might 7 need to be a requirement for manufacturers, 8 even though they are coming up with their own 9 AEDM, if the Department is thinking that 10 verification is needed, then the VICP should 11 be given the highest degree of authority or 12 support to be that verification body. 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. Thank you.

14 Sure. Go ahead. 15 MR. DAUGHERTY: Roger Daugherty, 16 Baldor Electric. 17 I guess I would just like to give 18 a good plug for what is going on in the motor 19 business. We have gone to the trouble of 20 creating a laboratory accreditation program 21 for testing. And so, all samples that are 22 tested for certification have to be done in an

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 176 1 accredited test facility or one that is 2 recognized as participation in a third-party 3 independent certification program. 4 And so, we feel that we have got 5 very good control over the testing that is 6 done, the results that come out of the 7 testing, and the tolerances that went into 8 certification. The results of that testing 9 are used to support the AEDM. 10 And again, I feel that I know we 11 are in a very different situation, that we are12 talking about a product that is very well13 defined by the physics of the product. We are 14 not putting together a lot of different 15 combinations of parts that alter the 16 efficiency and characteristics. So, we are in 17 a very certain situation. 18 But I would not like to see 19 something go into the final rule that alters 20 away from the way we are today. It is 21 working. We have confidence in it. 22 Through NEMA, they have now

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 177 1 created a verification program that 2 manufacturers can participate in as an 3 independent party. We have a CSA and a UL 4 recognized third-party certification program 5 that we can participate in to cover the 6 certification of products and verifications of

7 the AEDMs. 8 So, I would just caution that, as 9 I have expressed today, there are concerns 10 that you are trying to do one-size-fits-all 11 type of language in Part 429. Some of those 12 parts don't seem to really fit and apply to 13 electric motors and small electric motors. I 14 would like however you can consider carrying 15 forward what is in Part 431, as you move it to

16 Part 429. 17 Thank you. 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Karim? 19 MR. AMRANE: Karim Amrane, AHRI. 20 I guess I would like to respond to 21 Charlie's statement about industry being dirty 22 and industry policing itself. I mean, I am

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 178 1 not sure which product you are talking about, 2 but industry has been policing itself for more 3 than 50 years. We have certification programs 4 in place that are very strong certification 5 programs. Maybe you are referring to your own 6 product; I don't know. But that is the 7 general statement here. Let's be clear about 8 this. 9 MR. NESHAN: This is Massoud

10 Neshan. 11 And I would like, kind of in 12 support of what Karim said, I strongly 13 disagree with the language that was used, and 14 maybe it is inappropriate to talk about it 15 here. But this industry is not dirty, and I 16 personally am offended by its being said that 17 this industry is dirty. This is uncalled for. 18 MR. HON: I did not say which -- I 19 said quite clearly, if you gentlemen remember 20 -- this is Charlie Hon again -- there have 21 been several incidents in California which we 22 know have happened. They are documented.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 179 1 They are in the court records. We have had 2 companies reprimanded, companies fined. 3 That's dirty. 4 If you are not on the other end of 5 that, and maybe you are not, but we still have 6 these players in the field. The players in 7 this room know what they are doing because 8 they are not the ones who are going to be 9 violating the laws, but there are others who 10 do. The players who violate the laws don't 11 come to these meetings. 12 MR. KLEISS: I would just support 13 the comment that was made of cautioning you 14 against the one-size-fits-all kind of a ruling 15 here, and the comment about having, say, 16 compressors or components that can contribute 17 significantly to the efficiency changing over 18 time. That just does not apply to all types 19 of products now. So, please bear that in mind 20 when you are making the rules. 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Sure. Thank you. 22 MR. ROBERTS: This is Carl from

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 180 1 Zero Zone. 2 I think it is safe to say that the 3 manufacturers who are in this room, if you 4 give them the responsibility for making the 5 AEDM work, they have the ability to do that. 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Oh, go ahead. 7 MR. GARST: Mike Garst, Lennox.

8 I want to make sure that we are 9 clear here because you are using the word 10 "verification" and we have substantiation and 11 validation and assessment testing. Is 12 verification the assessment testing or 13 something else? 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: No. So, we are 15 not talking about assessment testing yet. 16 This would just be a second round of testing. 17 I'm sorry. This is Ashley from

18 DOE. 19 We are not talking about 20 assessment testing yet. This is just 21 currently in the regulations for AEDMs there 22 are two rounds of what you would call

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 181 1 substantiation and subsequent manufacturer 2 verification before a full use of an AEDM can

3 occur. 4 And for motors, there is a 5 periodic verification. And this is all 6 manufacturer-initiated. So, it has nothing to 7 do with any DOE-initiated subsequent testing. 8 So, we had proposed to get rid of 9 that second round. And it sounds like from 10 what I am hearing that the majority supports 11 that with the exception of one for HVAC and 12 CRE, and motors seem to be working the way 13 they are. 14 Not to say what the Department may 15 do. And we encourage you -- I guess, you 16 know, when you write written comments, maybe 17 there is some middle ground here and maybe 18 there is something -- I don't know what it 19 would be -- but maybe there are ideas. You 20 have ideas. I strongly encourage you to submit 21 them. I mean, if you don't want verification 22 or if you do but you want it limited or you

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 182 1 have other ideas, I strongly encourage you to 2 bring them to the table because we are open at 3 this point. Okay? 4 Okay. So, we kind of talked about 5 this earlier in terms of AEDM validation and 6 what we proposed. We didn't propose any 7 specific frequency that the AEDM must be 8 updated. 9 There was just a requirement that, 10 No. 1, DOE reserves the right to request 11 documentation underlying the AEDM at any point 12 in time. You must retain documentation 13 describing the AEDMs, supporting the test data 14 and anything that goes into it; obviously, the 15 AEDM itself. If you do any subsequent 16 verification or auditing yourself, it would be 17 a good idea to maintain that as well, and 18 anything else you think to support your AEDM 19 kind of substantiation and use package, as I 20 would say it. 21 And so, with that, the only 22 frequency we had in there was regarding the

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 183 1 test procedures and standards being current, 2 as we spoke to earlier. 3 So, I think we talked about this, 4 but does anyone else have any comments on 5 frequency-type things or any other proposals 6 the Department should consider about frequency 7 of updating or maintaining or testing? 8 (No response.) 9 No? Okay. 10 Oh, please. 11 MR. LORD: Yes, this is Dick Lord 12 with Carrier. 13 At the bottom of page 32046, in 14 the left-hand column, it says, "DOE intends to 15 address this topic further in upcoming 16 certification compliance/enforcement 17 rulemaking."

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Uh-huh. 19 MR. LORD: That is talking about 20 the documentation. Is there going to be 21 another -- okay.

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 184 1 MR. LORD: Which is great. The 2 more you can document it, the better. 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. 4 Okay. I am guessing this is where

5 we have comments. 6 Assessment testing. So, from the 7 March certification and enforcement 8 rulemaking, DOE made it clear that we may 9 conduct assessment testing at any time to 10 evaluate compliance with our standards. The 11 test results from one unit are compared to 12 both the standard and the rating for the 13 product. I realize for commercial equipment 14 -- well, see, you guys have certified ratings 15 or AHRI rating out there, and that is what we 16 would use in our comparisons for now. 17 So, I will keep going for now. 18 So, potential outcomes of an assessment test 19 result. So, failure to meet ratings. In 20 other words, if we test a single unit and the 21 results of that give rise to a potential where 22 the rating, something looks like it is off, we

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 185 1 propose that manufacturers must resubstantiate 2 their AEDM within 30 days using the test data 3 obtained from DOE-initiated testing. In other 4 words, we would give you that testing. If you 5 had a substantiation -- say you had just the 6 minimum of five; you would add it as a sixth 7 unit, resubstantiate your AEDM for any new 8 ratings that come out that were less 9 efficient, you would then recertify those 10 ratings. 11 We wouldn't necessarily require 12 any new testing. It is just that we would 13 say, hey, here are the results from our tests; 14 incorporate it in. 15 MR. AMRANE: Karim Amrane. 16 Just a question. What did you 17 mean by something is off? If you are not 18 within the 5 percent, is what you mean? 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: There is no 5 20 percent in DOE's reg, Karim. 21 MR. AMRANE: No, no, no, no. 22 Let's say that you are rating your product

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 186 1 with an AEDM. Okay? Now DOE does a test. 2 What will be the basis for DOE to say this is 3 a valid test or this is not a valid test? We

4 need to know that. 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. So, you are 6 asking, if we went back and we had 7 certification data that says, yes, this rating 8 came from an AEDM, you're right, we would look 9 at the 5 percent. You're correct. I'm sorry. 10 I thought you meant --

11 MR. AMRANE: No. 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Never mind. 13 So, the 5 percent tolerance, yes. 14 MR. AMRANE: Fine.

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. 16 MR. VerSHAW: Okay. So, I guess 17 we go back to the earlier slide, the 10 CFR 18 429.70(c) -- this is Jim VerShaw from 19 Ingersoll Rand -- 429.70(c) says that, if you 20 test something that is bigger than 5 percent 21 of the AEDM or 5 percent of your rating -- 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Five percent of

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 187 1 your rating from the AEDM. 2 MR. VerSHAW: Now, you know, that 3 could be derated from what the AEDM would give 4 you. 5 And the other issue is a single 6 test? What about some kind of defect in that 7 particular sample or what about a test that 8 was not set up correctly, which happens a lot? 9 Or not charged correctly? Or I don't know. 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. So, just 11 some caution here. You know, if we had a test 12 result back that, say, it looks like the 13 certified rating is this and it looks like our 14 test result is 8 percent off or so, the first 15 thing I think we would do is just contact the 16 manufacturer and have a dialog, about the test 17 data, about the AEDM. And before anything was 18 required to happen, we would have that 19 discussion and to see where things -- 20 MR. VerSHAW: Of course, you know, 21 the way it was written, the way we read it 22 coming into today, it didn't include that

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 188 1 step.

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: We're not that -- 3 (Laughter.) 4 MR. VerSHAW: Well, if it is not 5 written down, it is not done that way. This 6 is the government here, right? 7 (Laughter.) 8 MS. BARHYDT: Go ahead, Frank. 9 MR. STANONIK: But I guess I want 10 to try to make sure we have the same 11 understanding. What is on this slide says, if 12 DOE determines that the model fails to meet 13 its certified rating, okay? Getting to that 14 point involves several steps and is most 15 definitely a process, possibly starting with 16 testing one unit, but potentially testing some

17 more. 18 But for DOE to get to the point 19 that they can say, okay, we believe your model 20 is not rated properly is, to me, that is a 21 defined decision, and if that is what you are 22 meaning here, then everything else makes sense

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 189 1 because, in fact, you have gone through your 2 procedures and you have done the tests that 3 say, wait a minute, this product is not rated 4 correctly, and it is done. The decision is

5 done. 6 And if you are at that point, 7 then, in fact, the things you have under there 8 I say would be appropriate and correct. But 9 some of the discussion I was hearing was, 10 okay, you pulled in one unit, and let's just 11 say you weren't happy with the results of the 12 one unit, okay? That is not the same as DOE 13 has determined the model's rating is 14 incorrect. That the start of the process. 15 This is the end of the process, right? 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: That is correct -- 17 MR. STANONIK: Okay.

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- for the most 19 part. There is one caveat. 20 MR. STANONIK: Oh, okay. 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: This repercussion 22 is, once DOE has made a definitive

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 190 1 determination -- and, obviously, there would 2 be some discussions at the outset. What you 3 said is multiple tests. That is not the 4 proposal right now. 5 As it stands right now, we could 6 have one test, but we would go through a 7 process of which that test data could be 8 scrutinized. Plenty of discussions could be

9 had. We would also look at other test data 10 that the manufacturer might have, a variety of 11 different things before a definitive 12 determination is made. But once it is made, 13 this is the repercussion, that is, as 14 proposed.

15 Sure. 16 MR. LORD: So, some unit does 17 fail, and we all agree it has failed. So, I 18 have five units. Going through the math, 19 let's say, of those five units, I had one that 20 was a plus 5 percent, this one is coming in at 21 minus 6 percent. So, I have got to take this 22 sixth unit and add it in. Do I throw that

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 191 1 plus 5 percent unit out because it is too 2 good? The math doesn't kind of work, you 3 know, because it has got to be within plus or 4 minus 5 percent. So, I had five units before, 5 one of which was at a plus 5 percent, a very 6 good unit. 7 So, now we are saying, well, you 8 have got to derate your AEDM because you have 9 got a unit that is at minus 6. That is going 10 to throw that plus unit out of the mix then. 11 MS. BARHYDT: Well, the plus 5 12 wouldn't be the very good unit. The plus 13 5/minus 5 is how close did your model come to 14 your test result. So, I am just questioning 15 your wording a little bit there because it 16 sounded like that was a high-performance unit, 17 and that is not what the AEDM is supposed to

18 be. 19 MR. LORD: No, no. It is just a 20 range of the units I have, just to give an 21 example. It means that I can't meet that plus 22 or minus 5 percent then. So, I will have to

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 192 1 throw one of the other units out. 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, I don't know 3 if that is the case. So, for example, if you 4 have one unit that fails, a determination is 5 made that it failed the certified rating, and 6 that unit happens to be 6 percent off, like 7 you said, it may mean that your simulation is 8 just off for that specific design or that 9 product. It doesn't necessarily mean that the 10 ratings for all the other ones would change. 11 MR. LORD: Yes. No, we had that 12 discussion internally. It was not that we may 13 have forgotten to put in a factor for coil 14 coolings or something. 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct. Exactly. 16 MR. LORD: You know, that fixes 17 that problem. 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: But if you go back 19 and it does result in other changes, you are 20 going to need to have a substantiation package 21 that then meets the criteria. So, if that 22 change results in other models falling out,

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 193 1 you would have to then -- 2 MR. LORD: Do it.

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. Correct. 4 MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel, 5 Mitsubishi. 6 All the discussion has been 7 centered around like one unit, the whole unit. 8 And especially like if you have a heat pump, 9 you can have multiple metrics for each. So, 10 if there is just one of the metrics that does 11 not meet the requirements, does that require 12 resubstantiation of all the others as well or 13 just that one? 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, regardless of 15 one metric or two, if one unit fails, it 16 requires resubstantiation of the AEDM with 17 that unit. Now, that being said, if you rerun 18 your simulation and your ratings don't change 19 for anything else in that, then it is not a 20 big deal, right? Nothing else has changed. 21 Just that unit has been incorporated in. You 22 fix that unit. You fix that rating. Done

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 194 1 deal. 2 Now, if you include it in and 50 3 percent of your ratings change to be lower 4 because you forgot a loss or something that is 5 applicable to like half your product line, 6 then you need to recertify all those ratings 7 that would result in less efficient and more 8 consumptive products.

9 Does that make sense? 10 MR. LEWIS: Okay. To come back to 11 one thing that Jim said, when you get to this 12 stage, you are notifying the manufacturer that 13 there is an issue. And when you do the 14 testing that Jim has mentioned here, at the 15 prior meeting we talked that the manufacturer 16 will be notified. We would be able to go to 17 that lab and not supervise, but review that 18 testing? Was that not true? Because, then, 19 how do we know that the test was operated 20 properly? I mean, you are talking about our 21 livelihood. You know, innocent until proven 22 guilty. We need to be able to watch what is

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 195 1 going on to just say, "Wait, you just missed a 2 step." I mean human error.

3 MR. DOPPEL: And the 4 resubstantiation, that is a tremendous amount

5 of work. 6 Paul Doppel, Mitsubishi. 7 MR. LORD: And what you really 8 need to probably think about is some appeal 9 process. Like, for example, a unit may fail 10 in a laboratory. We take it back to our 11 laboratory and say we didn't confirm that. 12 You know, right now, with the ITS and AHRI 13 program, there is a way to work through that. 14 Because labs do make mistakes. 15 Instrumentation goes off in a lab. 16 MR. VerSHAW: Jim VerShaw here 17 again. 18 Remember, earlier a round-robin 19 test at a third-party lab will get you a 4 20 percent swing. So, you could take that unit 21 that came in at 6 percent below or 7 percent 22 below, put it in another room, test it the

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 196 1 next day, and be 2 percent low or 3 percent 2 low. And if you hadn't done the first-day 3 test, you wouldn't be talking to us. And we 4 didn't do anything different. 5 MR. FLY: Well, and remember, that 6 is in the same lab, too, being calibrated7 against each other. So, lab-to-lab, facility8 to-facility, it may be higher than that. I 9 don't think anybody in this room knows for 10 sure that plus or minus 5 percent, or has any 11 data that says plus or minus 5 percent is the 12 right number. So, if the number is plus or 13 minus 10 percent, proven through some big 14 study with round-robin tests, you know, I can 15 selectively go through and find the 5 percent 16 that will meet and validate my AEDM, but the 17 first time you test one outside of my window 18 of tests, then I could invalidate my AEDM and 19 I am back to ground zero again. 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Let me switch to 21 the phone because we have a couple of people 22 who have been waiting patiently.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 197 1 Jeff Bauman, do you want to speak?

2 MR. BAUMAN: Yes. Am I there? 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, you're good. 4 MR. BAUMAN: Okay. I just had, 5 going back on the verification, it is a little 6 late getting back to it, but -- from 7 Continental Refrigerator, Jeff Bauman, 8 hopefully one of the people who is not 9 considered dirty in this industry. I think it 10 is a good industry, reliable, but yet there 11 have to be checks and balances in place to 12 make sure that people who might not try to do 13 things the right way are not able to do that. 14 One of the things that has been 15 discussed and proposed to EPA, and possibly to 16 DOE, as far as Energy Star, and I would like 17 to put it out there for consideration on this 18 side, too, is using component verification 19 instead of actual retesting on a regular basis 20 to verify the proper components and, 21 basically, the products that are being built 22 are what the manufacturer has claimed in their

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 198 1 original studies with their energy 2 consumption, or whatnot. 3 I know some of the issues that 4 happened in California were with the 5 manufacturer basically claiming or saying that 6 the product that was made, that was tested and 7 failed was not actually the same product it8 was supposed to be, and it was kind of a back9 and-forth there. But it certainly seemed to 10 be a component issue there. 11 And I think that if there is a set 12 of criteria that says, okay, these are the 13 components that make up that unit, and groups 14 such as UL inspector or an NSF-type inspector 15 on a regular basis is doing a blind factory 16 audit, that they be able to cover and check 17 those things and have a more accurate and more 18 comprehensive evaluation.

19 Thanks. 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Thank you. 21 So, one more from the phone before 22 we turn it back over to the floor here.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 199 1 Craig? 2 MR. MESSMER: Yes, hi, Ashley. 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Hi. 4 MR. MESSMER: This is Craig 5 Messmer from Unico. 6 On your slide, you say, "It fails 7 to meet its certified rating." Are you 8 talking about the rating or the minimum 9 efficiencies? Because what is DOE trying to 10 achieve here? What is their interest level? 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, on slide 26, 12 we actually talk about the rating. When we 13 get to slide 28, we will be talking about 14 standards. Okay? 15 Anyone? Oh, go ahead. 16 MR. HON: There was a question 17 posed about validity. We have done some 18 validity testing, taken the same unit in the 19 same test room the next day, and started the 20 test again, changed the legitimate conditions 21 within the parameters of the test standard 22 from high to low on the range of internal and

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 200 1 external temperatures, and found a 7 percent 2 difference in the same piece of equipment, all 3 within legal limits of the test standard. 4 It is 38 plus or minus 2. We 5 would run one warm voltages. We would crank 6 the opposite direction and go high to low 7 voltages. And by changing two parameters of 8 the test standard, which there are more than 9 that, we changed the outcome by 7 percent. 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: Thank you.

11 Sure. 12 MR. DAUGHERTY: Roger Daugherty, 13 Baldor Electric. 14 To follow up on the issue of where 15 a piece of equipment may get tested, again, 16 going back in the history of electric motors 17 and conducting round-robin testing, in a NEMA 18 standard the value of efficiency of any 19 particular unit out of the basic model, out of 20 a population, could have total losses 21 approximately 20 percent higher than that of 22 the NEMA nominal efficiency value.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 201 1 Based on the round-robin testing 2 and the variation that was observed in it by 3 testing in different laboratories, then when 4 we were working with DOE to establish the 5 tolerance requirements for the sample testing 6 of five units of a basic model -- I am not 7 talking about this 10 percent thing that deals 8 with the AEDM. But the issue here under 9 meeting certified rating is that testing of 10 that sample of five. 11 And while the round-robin testing 12 and everything supported that 20 percent 13 variation, when the rule was written into Part 14 431, DOE discounted the variation between 15 laboratories and only accepted the variation 16 of testing performed in the same laboratory, 17 because the manufacturer most typically will 18 do all of his testing of that particular size 19 unit in the same facility rather than shipping 20 them around. Okay? 21 So, the tolerances that are based 22 upon certification of the efficiency rating

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 202 1 for an electric motor of a sample of five is 2 based upon testing only being performed in a 3 common facility by that manufacturer. So, 4 yes, he does have the possibility that, if 5 that unit or the five were tested by someone 6 else in some other facility, that he could be 7 outside of the allowable variation. 8 And so, DOE could make a finding 9 and question that rating, that certified 10 rating, while the manufacturer's test would 11 have supported that rating. Okay? 12 So, yes, variation between test 13 facilities is very important. And so, some of 14 that process needs to be included when you are 15 going to into enforcement. 16 The other concern we have with 17 enforcement is that we have one set of 18 criteria for approval of a sample when the 19 manufacturer is certifying the product. And 20 that is based upon percent of total losses 21 over the average of the sample. 22 In enforcement, the rule is

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 203 1 written around a lower control limit of the 95 2 percentile of the T-distribution, a totally 3 different concept. So, when a motor is 4 examined to determine if it meets its 5 certified rating under enforcement, it is a 6 different rule that is applied than is applied 7 when the manufacturer actually certifies the 8 product. 9 And then, we have the rule against 10 the AEDM that he may have actually used to 11 certify that particular one that is now being

12 tested under enforcement. 13 But we do realize that within the 14 enforcement procedure there are the processes 15 of the consultation with DOE to try to resolve 16 any differences that were observed before it 17 gets into a finding that you actually are in 18 non-compliance. 19 MR. GLATT: Helmuth Glatt, Nidec 20 Corporation. 21 I just want to expand on what 22 Roger has been saying. It is possible, under

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 204 1 I think Part 431, that we already have the 2 rule in place, that of that sample of five 3 motors, the average of those shall be within 5 4 percent of the NEMA nominal efficiency. But 5 one unit could possibly be as low as 15 6 percent below. 7 So, in that case, if you happened 8 to pick that particular unit for this testing, 9 you will have us requalify the entire AEDM. 10 So, while we are okay for compliance, we would 11 still be okay for compliance, but yet the 12 AEDM, which already showed that the product 13 was in compliance, would be out of compliance. 14 So, it is confusing. 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, I do just want 16 to make one thing clear. And maybe this is 17 something just generally I am not sure that 18 everyone recognizes. 19 If we talk about testing and we 20 take away the AEDM for a second, if the 21 Department were to pull a unit for tests and 22 you had certified your rating using testing,

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 205 1 too, running the sampling statistics and 2 coming up with their certified rating, then 3 sending that to the Department, if we were to 4 subsequently test one in a lab and we got a 5 number that was, you know, different than your 6 certified rating -- let's say it is 8 percent 7 off, just for lack of a better -- we would do 8 the same thing. This exercise would be the 9 same regardless of whether you did testing or 10 whether you used an AEDM. 11 We would come to you. We would 12 say, "Here's the testing that we got. Let's 13 see your test data." We would go through that 14 same process. 15 So, from the Department's 16 perspective, we didn't understand why, just 17 because you are coming up with a simulation, 18 or coming up with a number with a simulation, 19 why that process should necessarily be 20 different. And maybe it should; maybe it

21 shouldn't. 22 So, I just want to make clear that

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 206 1 this is the same process that we use if you 2 had tested. I don't know if that changes 3 anyone's opinion of things. Or perhaps it 4 changes our opinion of where we did the other 5 thing. 6 MR. VerSHAW: Well, Jim VerShaw

7 here. 8 So, the steps that the Department 9 would take on getting a test that was 8 10 percent low, where is that written down? And 11 if you two folks aren't here next year, God 12 forbid, would the next folks follow the same 13 rules and processes that you were just 14 discussing? 15 MS. BARHYDT: The processes are 16 all in Part 429, Subpart C. 17 MR. VerSHAW: Well, I thought in 18 there it said, if you get a unit that falls 19 below the -- and we are not talking about 18 20 -- below 13, you immediately test more units. 21 It didn't say anywhere in there that you are 22 going to talk to the manufacturer.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 207 1 MS. BARHYDT: Well, what it says 2 is that, if the Department has reason to 3 believe that the product is non-compliant, 4 that is not necessarily that it is half a 5 percent below the standard. So, first of all, 6 there is not an absolute cutoff there. So, if 7 the Department has reason to believe DOE will, 8 DOE may -- and even that is not a will; it is 9 a may -- proceed with enforcement testing. 10 In order to proceed with 11 enforcement testing, we have to contact the 12 manufacturer. That is in the regulations. It 13 doesn't lay out a specific we will talk to you 14 for "X" amount of days and all kinds of things 15 like that. 16 MR. VerSHAW: Well, I know that.

17 MS. BARHYDT: But we have to

18 contact the manufacturer because the 19 manufacturer has to provide the units for 20 enforcement testing. 21 MR. VerSHAW: I thought you just 22 asked us for units and be done with it.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 208 1 (Laughter.)

2 MS. BARHYDT: No. 3 MR. VerSHAW: That is the way it 4 was written. I'm sorry. 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: And one thing to 6 make just one distinction here is what we are 7 talking about here is the ratings. I realize 8 it could be very different. I mean, something 9 could be rated at -- I don't know; I am just 10 going to make up a number -- 15 EER, and in 11 that case there is no question about the EER 12 standard. At that point, it is just a ratings 13 thing. It has nothing to do with compliance 14 with standards or enforcement testing. So, 15 there is a nuance there that is different. 16 MR. VerSHAW: Well, yes, but 17 -- Jim VerShaw again -- but -- 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: But we would still 19 talk to you.

20 MR. VerSHAW: Pardon me? 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: We would still 22 talk to you.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 209 1 MR. VerSHAW: I know, but the 2 ramifications of missing a rating and having 3 to redo an AEDM and changing other ratings is 4 pretty big, regardless of whether it is at 13

5 or 18. 6 And if you think about it, if I 7 had to -- luckily, I don't do anything over 5 8 tons, but if I had to do the stuff that Jill 9 has to do, I am not sure I could get all those 10 units built and tested in 30 days. 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, step back.

12 MR. VerSHAW: Yes. 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Why would you need 14 to build and test? There is no testing 15 requirement here at all. All it says -- see 16 at the bottom; there is no new testing. 17 So, all we are saying is take our 18 test point -- 19 MR. VerSHAW: Okay. 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- and plug it in. 21 MR. VerSHAW: So, you take your 22 test point and plug it in, and, all of sudden,

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 210 1 it doesn't meet the 3 percent anymore. 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Then, you would 3 have to have another unit, maybe a seventh. 4 But not like all of them. I mean, I guess 5 that is what I am trying to understand. 6 MR. VerSHAW: Well, we are, too. 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Where is the 8 balance there? I mean, at some point, we 9 require, once a determination has been made 10 for testing purposes as it relates to the 11 certified rating, if you were testing and came 12 up with a rating, we require a rerate if we go 13 through that process and make a determination. 14 Why should this be any different? 15 MR. VerSHAW: Well, go ahead. 16 MR. AMRANE: Karim Amrane. 17 I guess it is a good question. 18 Then, I would ask you, then, at least for the 19 AEDM, it seems to be clear to me that you test 20 the unit. You compare the rating with the 21 AEDM. If you are not within 5 percent, you 22 might trigger additional testing, right?

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 211 1 But if you had tested a unit, 2 instead of using an AEDM, there is not such a 3 thing written in the regulation today. It is 4 very vague. It is up to DOE to decide what is 5 good, what is not good enough, I guess. It 6 doesn't say that if you are within 5 percent, 7 it is okay; we will not do additional testing. 8 It doesn't say anything like that. 9 So, let's be consistent then. 10 Let's put the 5 percent in that part of the 11 regulation as well, so at least it is 12 consistent. 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Thank you, Karim. 14 MR. FLY: You know, a lot of this 15 could go away if we would only require one 16 side, you know, downside tolerance on this. 17 The plus or minus is the thing that is really 18 -- this is Mark Fly with AAON -- that really

19 concerns me about the whole AEDM and the 20 testing part. 21 Because if we discover that the 22 lab-to-lab tolerance, or whatever we decide

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 212 1 tolerances, are much bigger than 5 percent, we 2 can knock our AEDM down 5 percent and cover 3 everything that we need to cover. But the 4 plus or minus, you know, my concern is not the 5 computer program; it will give the same number 6 with the same input every time. My concern is 7 the testing that you have to support the 8 computer program with. 9 MR. LORD: Well, I was going to 10 maybe try to answer at least the way I was 11 interpreting it. When you do your AEDM, you 12 use the plus or minus 5 percent. If you 13 conservatively rate and the testing comes in 14 better than 5 percent, she is not going to say 15 anything to us. She will send us a gold star. 16 (Laughter.) 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, I mean, that 18 is exactly right. I mean, if you have rated 19 conservatively, regardless, we are happy. 20 That is great. The consumer is going to get 21 that or better, right? 22 It is when you get to the negative

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 213 1 8 percent or the negative 7 percent that we 2 are going to come knocking at your door and 3 say, "Hey, we need to have a really friendly 4 discussion." 5 MR. FLY: But at that point, you 6 are going to get into the middle of our 7 business about how we put the AEDM together, 8 because at that point you are asking for all 9 this documentation on our AEDM. 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: We will be asking 11 for stuff, some stuff, correct.

12 Sure. 13 MR. LORD: We may want to talk 14 more about the 30 days. Because even if you 15 didn't have to test another unit, we might 16 say, well, we question that data. We want to 17 put it in our laboratory. We want to run

18 tests. 19 MS. BARHYDT: This is after the 20 final finding -- 21 MR. LORD: After the final 22 finding.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 214 1 MS. BARHYDT: -- after everything, 2 all the discussions are done. 3 MR. LORD: That is about three 4 years. We've got lots of time. 5 (Laughter.)

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: It can be. 7 MS. BARHYDT: In all honesty, it 8 can and does take more than 30 days. This is 9 30 days after the final determination. 10 MR. DOPPEL: Does it specifically 11 say that in there? I don't remember seeing 12 it, 30 after final determination.

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: It does. It does. 14 MR. DAUGHERTY: Roger Daugherty, 15 Baldor Electric. 16 If I could back up to one 17 statement that you made, you were saying that 18 the manufacturer would not necessarily be 19 required to do additional testing due to this 20 particular unit not meeting certified rating, 21 but that they were to take DOE-supplied test 22 data from a separate laboratory and

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 215 1 incorporate that into their AEDM, which has 2 been based around their testing in their 3 facility, and does not necessarily accommodate 4 results obtained in a different test facility.

5 And I don't know that 6 manufacturers would really want to do that, 7 to, for lack of a better word, contaminate 8 their AEDM by using data from an unidentified 9 and uncontrolled facility against all their

10 other data. 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. Well, so 12 that is the proposal. The unidentified 13 uncontrollable would always be a third-party 14 lab, like a third-party lab you guys would use 15 for certification. So, it may be a mix. You 16 would know what lab it is from. We would turn 17 over our test data, and you would see 18 everything. 19 You may still have the same 20 opinion about whether it should be used or 21 not, but just to clarify, those are some of 22 the things that would happen.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 216 1 MR. DAUGHERTY: Roger Daugherty. 2 Yes, I guess I would say I don't 3 have such a problem in the motor industry. 4 But from what I have been hearing about the 5 other industries and the way testing is done 6 in laboratories, I guess I was raising an 7 issue for them and not necessarily for the 8 motor industry. 9 MR. LEWIS: I'm confused. If you 10 are going to tell us after the test where it 11 was tested, why couldn't you tell us before 12 the test, put a gag on us, and let us just 13 watch the test? Then, we don't have the 14 variation worries. I mean, what am I missing? 15 MS. BARHYDT: So, we have actually 16 been actively doing enforcement testing. And 17 I can tell you from experience that having 18 people watch a test does not at all impact the 19 challenges to the test. It does not seem to 20 raise the level of comfort with the test. 21 Honestly, it doesn't change anything. 22 So, from the Department's

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 217 1 perspective, we are confident that the test is 2 being done in accordance with the DOE test 3 procedures. That is not to say that every 4 last tweak that the manufacturer may have 5 instructed the lab when they had it 6 certification tested was done, but we are 7 confident that the test is being done in 8 accordance with the DOE test procedure.

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: Once we make that 10 finding. 11 MS. BARHYDT: Yes, and that is the 12 other thing, is that if the test is done and 13 we give it to the manufacturer, and the 14 manufacturer finds something wrong with it, we 15 redo the test. This isn't a "well, too bad, 16 it's all over, a done deal; you're just stuck 17 with it." I mean, it is an actual dialog. It 18 is in our interest as well as yours to make 19 sure that all of our decisions are based on 20 valid test data. 21 MR. LORD: Dick Lord with Carrier. 22 One of the things that can help a

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 218 1 lot of times is you can allow the manufacturer 2 to be there to commission the unit to make 3 sure it is running properly, then ask them to 4 leave the room during the test. Because a lot 5 of this big commercial equipment is extremely 6 complex, and the average person cannot set it 7 up right. 8 MS. BARHYDT: This is Laura 9 Barhydt, DOE. 10 A real quick follow-up question. 11 Are these pieces of equipment that you require 12 the setup for your own representatives to be 13 present for setup or are these things that 14 third parties may set up as well? 15 MR. LORD: Yes, this is kind of 16 like the statement we had earlier -- 17 MS. BARHYDT: That is why I was 18 asking. 19 MR. LORD: -- that we put in our 20 literature, factory commissioning required. 21 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 22 MR. LORD: And we actually charge

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 219 1 the customer for it. 2 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 3 MR. GARST: Mike Garst with

4 Lennox. 5 I just want to make sure we 6 understand on this. On the plus side, we 7 talked earlier on substantiation, that we 8 wouldn't be concerned about the plus. I think 9 you were going to agree to do that. 10 But on the assessment it says that 11 it has to be within that. So, as long as you 12 agree on the substantiation, then we are good. 13 I just want to make sure. 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: We agree and we 15 can clarify that. We have no problem, rate 16 conservatively all you may want. 17 Anybody else? Anybody else have 18 any comments? 19 (No response.) 20 Okay. So, we had a question from 21 the phone, but I am not sure I can answer it 22 off the top of my head.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 220 1 "But, as an example, if DOE 2 minimums required an energy consumption that 3 is 11 kilowatts per day, if the AEDM indicates 4 that the CRE consumes 9 kilowatts a day, but 5 the published rating by the manufacturer is 10 6 kilowatts a day, what are the implications?" 7 So, we compare the 9 to the 10, 8 right. I think we are good to go. So, the 9 rating is 10. The test data is -- so you are 10 good on the standard because it is 9 to 11, 11 right? So, conservatively rated. You are 12 good and you are conservatively rated. It is 13 fine. 14 Okay. Yes? 15 MR. HON: Would you notify the 16 manufacturer that the rating was higher? 17 Because that may question his validation of 18 his system, if he is that far off on the other 19 direction, that he didn't down-rate the 20 product, but, actually, his model said it 21 would be that way. He may need to know that 22 to consider his modeling to be different.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 221 1 MS. BARHYDT: In the hypothetical,

2 there was no actual test data.

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: The AEDM and -- 4 MS. BARHYDT: Oh, okay. I thought

5 that was the standard. 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, they just 7 said as a simulation and that is certified. 8 So, there was no test data. 9 MS. BARHYDT: Yes, in the 10 hypothetical there wasn't any test data. 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Generally, I guess 12 it is a question, even if we don't have a 13 ratings issue or a compliance issue, is there 14 general interest to know what the results of 15 any testing the Department does is? 16 MR. HON: Charlie Hon. 17 That is the reason I asked the 18 question, because if it is showing much 19 better, then our models may be wrong. We may 20 need to change our modeling technique. 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. So, I 22 think, generally, the Department is working

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 222 1 toward making available its test data from 2 those things that it has tested that are not 3 subject to ongoing enforcement cases. So, 4 there are plans in the works to make all the 5 test data, whether it is being done for Energy 6 Star assessment, et cetera, available.

7 Yes? 8 MS. MEYERS: So, Ashley, this is 9 Karen Meyers with Rheem. 10 When you say "make the information 11 available," is it available to the 12 manufacturer or to the public? 13 MS. BARHYDT: To the public. 14 MS. MEYERS: This is Karen Meyers 15 with Rheem. 16 I just have one other. It is not 17 on? Yes, it is. 18 So, just listening to the 19 conversations going around today, DOE seems to 20 say rate conservatively, we like you to rate 21 conservatively; you are not going to have any 22 problem if you rate conservatively, where, as

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 223 1 a manufacturer, what I want to do is rate 2 accurately. If the DOE regulations are so 3 burdensome that I have to rate conservatively, 4 then to me there is a problem with the DOE 5 regulations. Because I think it should be the 6 purpose in this room between manufacturers and 7 the government to rate accurately. 8 I am just concerned with all of 9 these different comments about how 10 manufacturers are having to do their ratings 11 to meet the burden of DOE. It seems like it 12 is a little -- you know, at the end of the 13 day, it is the consumer or the building owner 14 or someone who is actually getting hurt. 15 And so, it is just a general 16 observation that I think needs to be part of 17 the public record that DOE is forcing 18 manufacturers to rate conservatively, so that 19 there are no issues with this process. 20 MS. BARHYDT: This is Laura 21 Barhydt at DOE. 22 I wouldn't say that we are

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 224 1 encouraging conservative ratings. We 2 certainly permit conservative ratings. It is 3 entirely up to manufacturers how they choose

4 to rate. 5 I will say that the certification 6 statistics in the regulations are set up to 7 cause a little bit of a conservative rating, 8 but that has been part of the regulatory 9 process, the whole framework, for decades. 10 So, beyond that little bit that is 11 built into the certification statistics, any 12 additional conservative rating is entirely up 13 to a manufacturer. And we are not advocating 14 or discouraging that practice. 15 MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel with 16 Mitsubishi. 17 When you talk about releasing test 18 information, I mean, to what extent are you 19 going to go? Are you going to release the 20 entire testing results? Or is it just certain 21 criteria like where it was compared with the 22 metric? Because, otherwise, I think some

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 225 1 manufacturers would object that maybe it is 2 releasing too much information. 3 MS. BARHYDT: Complete test 4 reports. 5 MR. DOPPEL: Complete test 6 reports?

7 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. 8 MR. AMRANE: Karim Amrane, AHRI. 9 I guess, what would be the purpose 10 of releasing the complete test report? I 11 mean, for whom? For the consumer? Who is 12 going to be interested in the complete test 13 report? 14 MS. BARHYDT: So, obviously, there 15 was a federal expenditure of funds for DOE 16 testing, and this is just part of the 17 transparency of the government providing to 18 the public the information paid for by the 19 American taxpayers. 20 MS. MEYERS: Laura, this is Karen 21 Meyers with Rheem. 22 Does that requirement, though --

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 226 1 you know, I understand spending government 2 funds and stuff, but why to meet that 3 requirement does it have to include releasing 4 the entire test report? Because I am afraid 5 there could be some CBI information in there. 6 And so, that would be some concern from my 7 part. 8 MS. BARHYDT: The information in 9 the test reports is all information that any 10 party who purchased a unit and paid for 11 testing would be able to have. There is 12 nothing in that test report that we have 13 obtained from the manufacturer. 14 So, everything in the test report 15 is publicly accessible. And the Department 16 has previously taken the position that test 17 reports paid for by the Department are public 18 and do not contain CBI. 19 MS. MEYERS: Where is that 20 information publicly available today? 21 MS. BARHYDT: I am not exactly 22 sure what you mean, but the test procedure is

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 227 1 public. And a person could buy a particular 2 unit and they could pay a test lab to do a 3 test, and they would get that same 4 information. There is nothing in that test 5 report that came from the manufacturer. 6 MR. DOPPEL: This is Paul Doppel 7 with Mitsubishi. 8 This is an exception to that. Any 9 manufacturer -- and it is not just VRF 10 manufacturers, ductless manufacturers -- there 11 are several companies that have variable-speed 12 equipment. For like a heat pump with a 13 variable-speed compressor, 10 tests are 14 required, and the compressor frequency is 15 provided by the manufacturer for each of those 16 tests. That would be company-sensitive 17 information. 18 MS. BARHYDT: So, Paul, so far, we 19 haven't tested any VRFs. 20 (Laughter.) 21 MR. DOPPEL: Well, I know, but 22 that is why we are concerned.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 228 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: We would have to 2 contact you. You would know beforehand. 3 MR. DOPPEL: Right. But, still, 4 releasing that information is -- 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's fair. 6 MS. BARHYDT: No, that is fair. 7 MR. DOPPEL: Okay. 8 MR. LORD: Yes, Dick Lord, 9 Carrier. 10 I mean, a good engineer, if he11 gets his data, can sit down and reverse12 engineer that unit. So, I could take a 13 competitor's unit, look at his test data, and 14 say, okay, this is where he runs that 15 condensing temperature, saturated suction, get 16 all the performance, which I really shouldn't 17 get. 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Are you really 19 going to make me ask this question? Do you 20 currently test your competitors' products to 21 get that information anyway? 22 MR. LORD: Yes, but now I get it

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 229 1 free. Now I get it free from you. 2 (Laughter.)

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Let's be honest 4 here. You have it anyway. 5 MR. LORD: No, you know, I could 6 see the key metrics that are important to the 7 ratings, but all the test data. 8 MS. MEYERS: Yes, this is Karen 9 Meyers with Rheem again. 10 I think having it on a public 11 website is going to make reverse-engineering 12 paramount. I mean, that is what everyone is 13 going to do. 14 Today, if we have to go out and 15 buy one of those units, bring it into the 16 test, tear it down, do the analysis, it is a 17 much more burdensome deal. So, sure, we 18 constantly test each other's units, but it is 19 way different than having it on a public 20 website, where not only U.S. manufacturers, 21 but foreign manufacturers and everyone else 22 can reverse-engineer the unit.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 230 1 So, for the record, we are going 2 to be totally against releasing the entire 3 test report. And I don't think that it is 4 necessarily required. 5 I agree with Dick Lord; you can 6 release key points of the test data, but the 7 purpose of putting the whole test report out 8 there is just lost on me. 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. Thank you 10 for those comments. We will take that under 11 advisement, but we have ranged far from the 12 actual topic of this public meeting. So, 13 let's get back to AEDMs. 14 So, we are talking about potential 15 outcomes of assessment testing when the 16 results of the single-unit test indicate that 17 there may be a reason to believe that DOE 18 should undertake an enforcement investigation. 19 And so, this is actually if we 20 would go forward with enforcement testing as 21 if, you know, the same thing, regardless of 22 whether the unit was rated with AEDM or the

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 231 1 unit was tested. We would go through our2 sample size of four for the low-volume, built3 to-order products. 4 And then, if the enforcement5 testing results definitively come out in non6 compliance determination, so after all the 7 discussion, after the testing results have 8 been reviewed, after everything, if the 9 definitive determination is made, these would 10 be the repercussions of a unit that was rated11 with an AEDM that is found to be non12 compliant. 13 Obviously, as with everything 14 else, all other models within that basic 15 model, they are deemed non-compliant. That is 16 the same regardless of whether it is tested or

17 an AEDM. 18 If the basic model was one of the 19 ones used to substantiate the AEDM, is found 20 non-compliant, that one can no longer be used 21 for substantiation. It must be redone. You 22 rerate and recertify all basic models as

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 232 1 necessary. 2 So, any questions there? Any

3 concerns there?

4 Sure. 5 MR. LORD: Yes, Dick Lord with 6 Carrier. 7 This is where the 30 days may be 8 the issue, like if you have to get another 9 unit. Like, for example, on large unitary, we 10 have a 90-day lead time in the ARI program to 11 get a second sample because it takes that long 12 to build them. 13 MS. BARHYDT: So, obviously, we 14 are proposing 30 days. If you think that that 15 is not sufficient, we welcome those comments. 16 Another possibility would be to 17 specify some normal period of time and 18 specifically say that DOE will work with you. 19 We have some language sort of to that effect 20 in some of the enforcement testing provisions 21 as well. So, we would certainly welcome

22 comments on that.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 233 1 MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel from 2 Mitsubishi. 3 Also, if the product comes from 4 Asia, then it will take much longer. It could 5 be 60-plus days to get here. 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. So, it 7 might be that case-specific language is 8 better, in which case the Department would 9 just work with the manufacturer. 10 MR. FLY: Mark Fly with AAON.

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes? 12 MR. FLY: Now you said, basically, 13 we are going to have to rerate everything 14 within the basic model or the equipment class? 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, what this 16 basically says that you would have to do is, 17 if one of your substantiation models is found 18 non-compliant and you bring a new model in, 19 any of the models that were rated using that 20 old, what I call, AEDM, as opposed to the 21 revised AEDM, if the ratings change to be more 22 consumptive or less efficient as a result of

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 234 1 any revisions made, you would need to rerate 2 and recertify those. 3 MR. FLY: Okay. 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. Anyone else? 5 (No response.) 6 Okay. And then, this is just a 7 general DOE proposal to disallow the use of an8 AEDM following multiple instances of non9 compliance or if there is evidence that 10 misrating was willful. So, this is just 11 consistently on a regular basis, you know, the 12 ratings are off coming out of an AEDM. DOE 13 reserves the right to disallow the use of an 14 AEDM altogether. 15 MR. LORD: It is a little open. 16 You know, we like more specific, especially 17 being engineers. 18 (Laughter.) 19 So, 2.5 would be good, you know, 20 or something. 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Do you have 22 suggestions for specifics that you would like

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 235 1 to see? 2 MR. LORD: We will provide some 3 comments. We will think about it, yes. 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. Thank you. 5 MR. VerSHAW: Yes, this is Jim

6 VerShaw. 7 It is kind of hard to determine 8 the definition of willful. It could just be 9 bad engineering. 10 (Laughter.) 11 MS. BARHYDT: I think when we 12 drafted willful, what we were thinking of was 13 something more along the lines of, we look at 14 your AEDM and it turns out that what came out 15 of your AEDM bears no resemblance to what you 16 actually rated it at. 17 MR. VerSHAW: Yes, yes. 18 MR. BOESENBERG: Can you provide 19 or I guess I would like to have a dialog about 20 the definition of multiple instances? In one 21 of these ones where there is thousands of 22 products being represented, you can have

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 236 1 multiple instances, but it is less than 1 2 percent or something like that. 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think that gets 4 to his question earlier. We left it open, and 5 if there are specific suggestions about what 6 bounds that range or what the Department 7 should consider, we welcome them. 8 MS. BARHYDT: One other thing I 9 would note is that this is multiple instances 10 of non-compliance, which means that we have 11 gone through this process multiple times, 12 which it is a very long process to get to a 13 finding of non-compliance. 14 And so, if we have gone through 15 this -- I am just throwing out numbers; I have 16 no idea -- but three or four times over 17 months, and possibly even years, and the 18 manufacturer is still not producing an AEDM 19 that can accurately rate its products, I think 20 we would have serious doubts about the ability 21 of that manufacturer to produce an AEDM that 22 could accurately rate the products.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 237 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think just an 2 analogy there would be the same thing about 3 doing in-house testing. If we went through 4 multiple rounds where in-house testing has 5 resulted in just wrong ratings over and over 6 again, and we actually found non-compliance, 7 not misrating, but non-compliance out of those 8 multiple times, there may be need for a 9 discussion of moving to third-party laboratory 10 testing solely at that point. So, it is kind 11 of synonymous at that point. 12 Okay. Moving along, I think we 13 already hit this one for the most part. This 14 has to do with the resubstantiation test 15 procedure standard or if you discontinue a 16 model that you used to substantiate your 17 package, but I will put this up again in case 18 anyone has any last questions or comments. 19 MR. AMRANE: I have a question.

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Sure. 21 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim Amrane,

22 AHRI.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 238 1 I guess with respect to changes to 2 the test procedure, I don't know if it was 3 addressed before, but sometimes test 4 procedures are amended, but then there are not 5 substantial changes made to the test 6 procedure. It could be, I mean, our standards 7 that are referenced by DOE, our AHRI standards 8 are changed all the time. And sometimes that 9 has no impact on the energy efficiency of the 10 product. 11 So, I think we need to be more 12 specific than just say changes in the 13 applicable test procedure. I think that 14 should be substantive changes or changes that 15 affect the energy efficiency of the product, 16 or something like that. 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. We did hit 18 on this a little bit earlier. Well, I am 19 actually going to turn around a question to 20 you. 21 This was when the Department was 22 told they worked at lightning speed. You

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 239 1 missed that part. 2 (Laughter.) 3 But I do want to ask you a 4 question. Right now, it just says a change in 5 the federal procedure, not the industry and 6 not the ASHRAE test procedure, just the 7 federal test procedure, recognizing that that 8 usually doesn't happen more than every five to 9 ten years. 10 But a question to you would be, 11 what characteristics -- or to everyone -- what 12 characteristics should the Department consider 13 if it decides to further clarify what that

14 means? 15 MR. AMRANE: I think I stated it. 16 Karim Amrane, AHRI. 17 Again, if it has an impact on the 18 energy efficiency or the energy consumption of 19 the product. 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Period? 21 MR. AMRANE: Yes. I mean, that is 22 what we are regulating, right?

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 240 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay.

2 MR. AMRANE: Yes. 3 MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel with 4 Mitsubishi.

5 Go ahead. 6 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik,

7 AHRI. 8 I think it would be something 9 along the lines of if that change affects the 10 ratings of the products to which the AEDM has 11 been applied. And the reason to do that, a 12 little more elaboration here, is I can think 13 of two examples. Okay? 14 Let's say I got a waiver. Okay, I 15 got a waiver and I have worked that into my 16 AEDM already. All right? As we know, 17 sometimes waivers take a long time to get into 18 the test procedure. Okay? Well, once the 19 waiver finally got into the test procedure -- 20 in fact, my AEDM already adjusted for it -- it 21 really doesn't need to be changed. Okay? 22 The other circumstance would be

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 241 1 you change the test procedure to keep up with 2 technology. And let's talk about, again, gas 3 products. Let's say at some point the test 4 procedure was changed to address products that 5 fire at multiple rates. Okay? Well, that is 6 not all models. Okay? 7 If I had an AEDM that was specific 8 to models that only fired at a single input 9 rate, nothing has changed. So, there is going 10 to have to be some context to explain, to 11 qualify that. It can't just be a 12 straightforward change whenever the test 13 procedure changes. 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, before I open 15 up, I just want to make one comment to you. 16 Or maybe it is a question, and then you might 17 want to answer this one. 18 What if we get an instance for 19 which, yes, we have waivers, but in the final 20 rule we change the method? In other words, we 21 decide through that test procedure that the 22 waiver method is not what we are going to use.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 242 1 We are going to use some alternative. 2 In that case, you know, then you 3 don't have that method in your AEDM. Should 4 that require something like that? 5 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik,

6 AHRI. 7 Probably yes, because, again, I 8 think what I initially suggested would be some 9 kind of text that would say if the change 10 affects the rating of products to which the 11 AEDM has been applied. In the situation you 12 have described, I would say it probably will 13 because, otherwise, DOE wouldn't have bothered 14 to change the waiver procedure. So, I think 15 the answer would be yes. 16 MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel, 17 Mitsubishi. 18 The wording should be very 19 specific other than just saying it changes the 20 test standard, because I know with a 1230 21 standard we are going to have some 22 administrative changes in that that won't

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 243 1 affect the outcome. So, it has to be 2 something that would be substantive within the 3 testing procedure itself that would affect the 4 outcome of the measured criteria. 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. 6 MR. VerSHAW: Yes, Jim VerShaw. 7 The upcoming change for 8 residential air conditioning pumps, we go 9 regional. If that were the only change, I 10 wouldn't think that would cause a need to 11 resubstantiate because we haven't taken any 12 products off the market. We are still doing 13 the same descriptors. There might be 14 different levels for certain places. You had 15 it in standby power or whatever we call it. 16 There, that wasn't done before. 17 That portion of the AEDM would have to be 18 adjusted and substantiated for that portion of 19 it, but the other part shouldn't have to be

20 touched. 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. 22 MR. VerSHAW: So, you need some

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 244 1 kind of language that kind of spells out that 2 type of thing. 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. Thank you. 4 Sure, Mark. 5 MR. FLY: Yes, Mark Fly with AAON. 6 Now, I mean, most of the test 7 standards that are included in your standards 8 by reference are changed -- Karim, help me -- 9 if they are ANSI standards, they change every 10 three years, I think, three or five. 11 MR. AMRANE: Five. 12 MR. FLY: Five. So, every five 13 years, we are going to have the standard 14 change. Now, I mean, a lot of times that 15 standard change is just a reaffirmation or, 16 like several people said, either we clarified 17 something or it is a minor change in there. 18 How does the DOE synch up with 19 these changes in the reference test standards? 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, for your 21 products that you are speaking about, the 22 ASHRAE 90.1 products, when ASHRAE 90.1 goes

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 245 1 through their process, DOE is, then, triggered 2 to review it. So, we just did this back in 3 April and brought all the test procedures and 4 standards up for the 90.1-2010. So, we have 5 the latest that are with 90.1-2010, but there 6 is some lag time there. 7 MR. FLY: So, it is by reference

8 then? 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: Parts are by 10 reference, yes. So, yes, for the most part. 11 MR. GARST: Mike Garst, Lennox. 12 The one example I can think of in 13 the commercial industry has been going from 14 IPLV to IEER. And I am assuming that would be 15 an example of one that would require that, but 16 I can't think of anything else. That was the 17 only thing for control, but it is still a 18 different number that we put out there. 19 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim Amrane. 20 I have a question not really 21 related to the discussion we are having right 22 now, but it has to do with other descriptors.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 246 1 I mean, the Department of Energy is coming up 2 with additional requirements, let's say, for3 example, off-mode energy consumption. Is off4 mode going to be something that the AEDM could 5 do, for example? Or for the furnace fan, or I 6 don't know, all those things that are coming 7 up. 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, as proposed, 9 the AEDM is drafted to be applicable to 10 certain product types. So, for CACs, the 11 answer as proposed off-mode, yes. 12 MR. AMRANE: Okay. 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: For furnace fans, 14 it is no because there is nothing for furnace. 15 MR. AMRANE: There is no AEDM, 16 yes, you're right. 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: There is no such 18 thing as AEDMs for furnaces. But, yes. 19 MR. AMRANE: Okay. 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay? 21 Yes, please. 22 MR. DAUGHERTY: Roger Daugherty,

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 247 1 Baldor Electric. 2 I guess it is just a request for 3 some clarification. In the past, I think that 4 the test standards I have heard being referred 5 to at present are the industry test standards 6 as to how to do the tests. In the past, when 7 DOE has used the term "DOE test procedure," it 8 has been in reference to how to determine the 9 average of the sample and make that comparison 10 against either the representative efficiency, 11 being either the standard or against the 12 nameplated efficiency of a motor. 13 Is it real clear what you are 14 meaning here by referring to DOE test 15 procedure? 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Motors is 17 different. 18 (Laughter.) 19 MR. DAUGHERTY: It also applies to

20 transformers. 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. So, we do 22 mean the actual like, in your case, the IEEE

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 248 1 testing protocol and the version specifically 2 incorporated in our regs, not necessarily the 3 comparison. So, that is what we are referring 4 to with respect to motors. 5 I understand that the term rating 6 also has a completely different meaning for 7 motors. I have come to appreciate that over 8 time. 9 (Laughter.) 10 Okay. So, with that, any last 11 questions or comments? 12 While you think of them, I have a 13 question from Craig on the line. It has to do 14 with, for independent coil manufacturers, is 15 “current model” based on the indoor unit or 16 the outdoor unit? And ICM only manufactures 17 the indoor unit. 18 And the answer would be, while you 19 only manufacture the indoor unit, you certify 20 a combination. So, “current” would refer to 21 the combinations that you have certified. 22 MR. VerSHAW: I'm sorry, I've got

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 249 1 a question. This is Jim VerShaw. 2 So, if a third-party coil

3 manufacturer doesn't know how to rate 4 appropriately, is that going to get the OEM of 5 the outdoor unit in some kind of hot water 6 that they shouldn't be in?

7 MS. BARHYDT: All of the 8 certifications that the Department receives 9 are certifications from a particular party. 10 And an outdoor unit manufacturer is only 11 responsible for the certifications that they

12 make. 13 MR. VerSHAW: Okay. 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, please. 15 MR. LORD: I know it is not that 16 we are going to discuss it today, but we still 17 have that issue on the table that, when we add 18 up all of our basic model groups on 19 commercial, we have that 11-trillion-plus 20 number. And where do we start populating a 21 database? And is there another alternative? 22 We have got to work that out.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 250 1 MS. BARHYDT: So, one thing I did 2 want to mention before we adjourn today, the 3 Department is exploring the possibility of a 4 negotiated rulemaking for certification of 5 commercial HVAC, commercial refrigeration 6 equipment, and I believe commercial heat -- 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: And water heating. 8 MS. BARHYDT: Water heating, that 9 is the one I forgot. 10 The first phase of that 11 exploration is actually conducted by an 12 independent third party who speaks to 13 interested parties and gets information and 14 then writes a report which is presented to the 15 Department. 16 So, we will be having -- I think 17 they are called the convener -- start 18 contacting parties, hopefully, over the course 19 of the summer. So, various people in the room 20 may be getting a phone call. If he says he is 21 calling about this, you will know what he is 22 talking about.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 251 1 The conversations with the 2 convener are confidential. We only receive 3 the summarized general gist of the views that 4 were presented in the course of those 5 discussions. 6 MR. FLY: Will the basic model 7 group question be resolved before this goes 8 into effect, since it is so deeply ingrained 9 in this whole rulemaking? 10 MS. BARHYDT: This is Laura 11 Barhydt with DOE. 12 One would hope. 13 (Laughter.) 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Let's go up there, 15 and then we will go down. 16 MR. KLEISS: Thanks. Jeff Kleiss 17 with Lochinvar. 18 Going back to the number of tests 19 that we are required to do, we do a couple of 20 tests to validate the AEDM, and then sample 21 within the different product classes. Each 22 one of those basic models that is tested, is

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 252 1 that a single test of a single unit within the 2 basic model or is that the rating for the 3 basic model with statistical -- for those that 4 are listening, they are shaking their heads

5 no. 6 (Laughter.) 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. So, for 8 substantiation, single model, single test, if 9 you are rating based on testing, at least two

10 or more.

11 Does that make sense? 12 MR. KLEISS: I'm sorry. Say it 13 again? 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, for the AEDM 15 substantiation, single model, single test, 16 substantiation requirement. If you are purely 17 basing a model's rating on testing, two or

18 more. 19 MR. KLEISS: Thank you.

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Sure.

21 Next? 22 MR. LORD: Yes, Dick Lord with

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 253 1 Carrier. 2 This brought up the question, 3 which is, if we did elect to rate based on 4 tests, commercial equipment has a 95 percent 5 confidence level; residential has a 90 6 percent. It just doesn't make sense. 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Thank you. 8 (Laughter.) 9 MR. LORD: Okay. 10 MR. DAUGHERTY: Roger Daugherty, 11 Baldor Electric. 12 I have several items here that 13 haven't been covered yet today from the NOPR. 14 One of them deals with the definition of the 15 AEDM that has been proposed. I have noted 16 that you did delete the definition of AEDM for 17 small electric motors from 431.442, but you 18 left it in for 431.12 for electric motors. 19 And it is important because that 20 definition that was in there for small 21 electric motors and is in for electric motors 22 makes reference to total losses as being one

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 254 1 of the criteria for the determination. And 2 that is not in your present definition. So, 3 if you are going to move to a common 4 definition, then we would like total losses to 5 be included in that definition. 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. Thank you. 7 MR. DAUGHERTY: The next is that, 8 looking at the present version of Part 429 on 9 the website, 429.41 is marked as reserved for 10 electric motors. There is nothing in this 11 NOPR that includes what is to go into that 12 section, the same as there is no section 13 reserved for small electric motors and there 14 is no proposal in the NOPR for small electric

15 motors. 16 I guess I would like to know 17 whether it is the Department's intent to issue 18 a separate NOPR to cover those, so that we 19 have the opportunity to comment prior to a 20 final rule. 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, sir. 22 MR. DAUGHERTY: Okay.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 255 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: That will be in 2 the certification, compliance, and enforcement 3 rulemaking round two. 4 MR. DAUGHERTY: Even though it 5 deals with AEDM? 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: The AEDM, so any 7 provisions that relate to the AEDM should be 8 dealt with here. Any provisions that relate 9 to certification and enforcement will be dealt 10 with there. 11 MR. DAUGHERTY: Well, what I am 12 talking about is the --

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: I understand. 14 MR. DAUGHERTY: -- part that deals 15 with AEDM. 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, sir. 17 MR. DAUGHERTY: Okay. And the 18 reason I brought up the issue about new final 19 rules is that the May 4th final rule that just 20 came out for small electric motors revised 21 431.445(b), and this NOPR ends up deleting 22 that and possibly the other parts, because

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 256 1 they are not included in text in this NOPR. 2 I wasn't clear whether you were 3 intending to delete all of (b), not 4 recognizing the new parts that were in the new 5 final rule. 6 And the other is that that final 7 rule expanded 431.445(c)(2) that was 8 previously reserved, and it added a Part 3 9 that states the criteria for determining that 10 the test of a sample passes requirements for 11 certification for a basic model. That part is 12 important not necessarily for the AEDM, but it 13 is for certification by testing of the basic 14 model. Yet, this NOPR deletes that. 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. 16 MR. DAUGHERTY: And so, I don't 17 know what the Department's intent is to try to 18 keep that somewhere. 19 And I believe that is all. Thank 20 you. 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Thank you. 22 Anyone else?

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 257 1 MR. NESHAN: Yes.

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes? 3 MR. NESHAN: This is Massoud 4 Neshan with Southern Store Fixtures. 5 I was going to, as a closing, 6 bring up the basic model definition again and, 7 also, on the AEDM development and the 8 timeline. However, based on what I just 9 heard, that there is possible negotiating 10 approach, at least as far as the commercial 11 refrigeration equipment is concerned, I am 12 going to hold back until we see what is the 13 outcome of that before we discuss this

14 further. 15 Thank you. 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Charlie?

17 MR. HON: What does that do to the 18 reporting requirements due January 1st?

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't know. 20 MS. BARHYDT: Until the Department 21 modifies the current regulations, the current 22 regulations stand.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 258 1 MR. HON: Thank you. 2 MR. AMRANE: Karim Amrane, AHRI. 3 I guess I understand the comment, 4 but at the same time manufacturers need some 5 certainty. As I said in my opening statement, 6 there is no way that the industry can be ready 7 by January 1st, 2013, at least for the 8 industry that AHRI represents. 9 So, we ask for an 18-month delay, 10 based on the final date of this final rule. 11 And we will, of course, put that in writing in 12 our comments, but I would hope that the DOE 13 would seriously consider that request. 14 Thank you. 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. And just 16 one more on the line. 17 Can you unmute Aaron? 18 Okay, Aaron, you should be good. 19 MR. MEYERS: All right. Thanks, 20 Ashley. 21 Two general comments regarding the 22 AEDM. The first one is regarding the time to

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 259 1 resubstantiate. From our perspective, 30 days 2 is unrealistic, and we would request something 3 closer to like 120 days. 4 The reason being we are not 5 building units specifically for testing and 6 then throwing them away. We are needing to go 7 into our production schedule and check what 8 units are ordered and then build those ahead 9 of time, so that we can put them through the 10 specific DOE test procedures and then still 11 satisfy our customer delivery dates. So, that 12 is the reason for the 120 days versus the 30.13 And it especially becomes tough on three14 phase transformers. 15 The second comment is regarding 16 reducing the testing burden. And 17 specifically, my comment here is regarding 18 testing in the highest-loss configuration 19 versus testing in the as-shipped 20 configuration. So, transformer manufacturers 21 are required by ANSI/IEEE standards to do 22 electrical testing sort of as a quality check

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 260 1 before the units leave the factory. 2 And we have an issue because we

3 are unable to correlate the test data that we 4 acquire by doing this ANSI testing to the 5 DOE's standards, and the big disconnect is 6 really in the fact that DOE requires testing 7 in the highest-loss configuration versus the 8 as-shipped configuration. 9 All of the investigation that we 10 have done in the past shows that it is very 11 small, like on the order of maybe 2 or 3 12 percent difference between the two. And I 13 think this topic has come up several times in 14 the past, but it has never quite made it into 15 one of the standards. I am hoping that this 16 time that might be incorporating into the

17 standard. 18 Thank you. 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. Thank you.

20 Yes?

21 MR. ROBERTS: Carl from Zero Zone. 22 I would agree with what Aaron said

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 261 1 about 120 days. We have got some components 2 that have eight- or ten-week lead times. The 3 tests take a long time to set up. So, if 4 there is any retesting, physical testing 5 required, 90 days probably isn't enough. 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. Any other 7 closing remarks? 8 (No response.) 9 Anyone else on the line? 10 (No response.)

11 No?

12 Sure. 13 MR. LORD: Actually, you know, a 14 positive thing, I think it is a much better 15 proposal. So, I appreciate the listening

16 before --

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Sure. 18 MR. LORD: -- I think for a lot of 19 us probably. 20 And I like the idea of a 21 negotiated discussion. That would be a good 22 way to get at some of these problems.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 262 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. Well, with 2 that, we thank everyone for coming today, 3 especially on some of the short notice. 4 Thirty days, the comment period 5 closes July 2nd, I believe. So, we welcome 6 all your comments and questions up until then. 7 And I hope everyone has a safe 8 trip home. 9 Thank you. 10 (Whereupon, at 2:40 p.m., the 11 meeting was adjourned.)

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200:1,9 213:1 7th 58:12 700 173:21 7246:8 7200 144:4,19 75 82:21 760,000 125:12,13 794:8,10 118:2 130:12 8 8 86:7 187:14 205:6

206:9 213:1 8E-089 1:12 9 9 220:4,7,10 9-10 53:21 9:00 1:14 9:01 5:2 90 253:5 261:5 90-day 232:10 90.1 244:22,22 90.1-2010 245:4,5 90.9 100:14 101:4 91.7 100:11 101:3 92.4 100:16 95 18:7 80:2 82:19 128:11 144:4,19 203:1 253:4 97 82:20 98 81:7 98.91 144:7 99 80:2 82:22 144:9NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com C E R T I F I C A T E

This is to certify that the foregoing transcript

In the matter of:

Before:

Date:

Place:

was duly recorded and accurately transcribed under my direction; further, that said transcript is a true and accurate record of the proceedings.

----------------------- Court Reporter 295

Alternate Efficiency Determination Methods

US DOE

06-05-12

Washington, DC