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UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY

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TREASURY TRIBAL ADVISORY COMMITTEE

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PUBLIC MEETING

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WEDNESDAY

JUNE 14, 2023

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The TTAC convened in the Cash Room, 

Treasury Building, 1500 Pennsylvania Avenue, 

Northwest, Washington, D.C., at 1:06 p.m. EDT, W. 

Ron Allen, Chairman, presiding.

TTAC MEMBERS PRESENT:

W. RON ALLEN, Jamestown S'Klallam Tribe; 

Chair/CEO

REBECCA BENALLY, Navajo Tribe 

SHARON EDENFIELD, Confederated Tribes of the 

 Siletz Indians; Vice Chair

WILL MICKLIN, Central Council of Tlingit Haida 

 Indian Tribes of Alaska

JEAN SWIFT, Mashantucket Pequot Tribe

CORA WHITE HORSE, Oglala Sioux Tribe
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ALSO PRESENT

KRISHNA VALLABHANENI, Designated Federal 

 Officer

THOMAS BROWN, IRS

JAMES COLOMBE, Department of the Treasury

JONATHAN DUNLAP, IRS

MATTHEW FERGUSON, DOE

WIZIPAN GARRIOTT, DOI

MARK HULSE, IRS

JOSH JACKSON, Department of the Treasury

RICHARD LITSEY, Social Security Administration

MARILYNN "LYNN" MALERBA, Treasurer of the 

 United States, Department of the Treasury

ANDREW MEGOSH, IRS

LISA MOJIRI-AZAD, IRS

JENNIFER PARISIEN, Department of the Treasury

JULIA PARNELL, IRS

MORGAN RODMAN, White House Council on Native 

 American Affairs

ANISHA STEEPHEN, Department of the Treasury

ALYSE TAYLOR-ANYIKIRE, DOE

SCOTT VANCE, IRS

CARMEN ZUCKER, IRS
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C-O-N-T-E-N-T-S

Call to Order ................................. 4

Tribal Opening ................................ 4

Remarks by Treasurer Chief

Marilynn "Lynn" Malerba ....................... 7

Comments by Members of the Treasury Tribal

Advisory Committee (TTAC) .................... 15

Federal Agency Updates ....................... 44

Treasury/IRS Updates ........................ 110

Old Business ................................ 157

TTAC Subcommittee Updates

1. General Welfare Exclusion ................ 159

2. Dual Taxation ............................ 169

3. Tribal Pensions .......................... 183

Public Comments ............................. 188

Other Items ................................. 206

Close of Business ........................... 234

Adjourn
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P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S

(1:06 p.m. EDT)

MR. VALLABHANENI: Welcome, 

everybody.

My name is Krishna Vallabhaneni. I 

am the designated federal officer for the 

Department of the Treasury Tribal Advisory 

Committee. Welcome to the 11th public meeting 

of the committee. We refer to it as, or I 

refer to it as TTAC. Fewer words.

We've got a lot to cover this 

afternoon, this morning for some of us joining 

virtually. And would like to at this point 

welcome TTAC member Rebecca Benally to offer a 

tribal opening.

Please stand.

MEMBER BENALLY: (Native language 

spoken.)

Creator, as we humbly come before 

you this day, we ask for blessings as we come 

together in a humble way as brothers and 

sisters representing Indian Country. As we 
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respect our ancestors who have come before us 

in courage and strength, bless us this day as 

we have the opportunity to discuss, plan, and 

implement for our tribal nations various 

policies, regulations, and planning.

Bless each and every one of us today 

and our nations back home. Bless us in our 

travels as we travel to and from home. And 

bless us in our daily activities.

(Native language spoken.)

MR. VALLABHANENI: Thank you.

Next I'd like to introduce the 

Treasurer of the United States, Chief Lynn 

Malerba.

Apologies for that.

Before, I know you're all dying to 

hear from Chief Malerba, but before we get 

there we will do a roll call to establish that 

we are even allowed to be talking here right 

now.

So, with that, I will read the roll. 

Members of the TTAC please just indicate 
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present when your name is called.

I'll begin with Chairman Ron Allen.

CHAIR ALLEN: Present.

MR. VALLABHANENI: Vice Chair Sharon 

Edenfield.

VICE CHAIR EDENFIELD: Present.

CHAIR ALLEN: Rebecca Benally.

MEMBER BENALLY: Present.

CHAIR ALLEN: Will Micklin.

MEMBER MICKLIN: Present.

CHAIR ALLEN: Stephanie Williams.

(No response.)

CHAIR ALLEN: Not present. Okay.

Jean Swift.

MEMBER SWIFT: Present.

CHAIR ALLEN: I apologize. Cora 

White Horse.

MEMBER WHITE HORSE: Present.

CHAIR ALLEN: Thank you.

And, you know, I'm sure Chairman 

Allen will, and/or the Treasurer will also 

mention this, but I would like to welcome 
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Council Member Cora White Horse as the newest 

member of the TTAC. Welcome.

Okay. I'll turn it over to the 

chairman.

CHAIR ALLEN: So, Krishna, if you 

don't mind, I know that in our script we have 

opening remarks by the Tribal TTAC. But I 

would, I think if my colleagues would defer to 

the Treasurer for some opening remarks. And 

then we can provide some opening remarks from 

the TTAC membership.

CHIEF MALERBA: All right. Well, 

thank you, Chairman Allen. I appreciate that.

(Native language spoken.)

CHIEF MALERBA: Greetings, everyone. 

I am Chief Many Hearts Lynn Malerba from the 

Mohegan people. I acknowledge the First 

Peoples on this land, including the Anacostian 

and Piscataway Nations, as well as our 

neighboring Virginia Tribal Nations. And we 

thank all the related ancestors and stewards of 

the land that we meet on today.
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So, I am very happy to have this 

public meeting. I greet you all today. And I 

am very excited to have this conversation.

I especially want to thank two of 

our Advisory Committee members who are 

attending their last meeting today. I am sad 

about that because we've worked really closely 

together.

One is Rebecca Banally, who is an 

inaugural member of our Treasury Tribal 

Advisory Committee, and was the co-chair of our 

Subcommittee on Dual Taxation.

And I thank you for your service and 

appreciate the time that you've spent with us.

And including the fact that we 

worked all through the pandemic to get our dual 

taxation report out the door.

And, secondly, I'd like to thank 

Jean Swift from Mashantucket Pequot for her 

service on this Advisory Committee and her 

thoughtfulness as we worked on dual taxation 

together.
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I would welcome Cora White Horse. 

We are appreciative to have your voice and your 

perspective here on this committee. And I 

thank you for that.

And I just wanted to let everyone 

know that the Director of the Office of Tribal 

and Native Affairs, Fatima Abbas, is unable to 

join us today. But rest assured, she has been 

doing some amazing work here at Treasury. She 

is really making a difference in helping all of 

the departments that we work with understand 

our Tribal Nations and understand what good 

policy from our tribal perspective looks like.

Joining us today, and I'd like you 

both to stand, in person is Jen Parisien, 

policy advisor, and Josh Jackson, a policy 

advisor. We're thrilled to have them here.

And Jim Colombe is on Zoom.

And I'd like to just let everyone 

know that yesterday they received the Chase 

Award from the Secretary for the good work that 

they've done, they have done, on the policy 
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team and throughout the ARPA administration. 

So, they -- well deserve kudos from them.

Today, you know, we are excited to 

announce that Treasury and IRS has released a 

proposed guidance on two very important 

mechanisms in the new Inflation Reduction Act 

that will help states, local governments, notfor-profits, and other eligible entities access 

clean energy credits. This is going to be the 

first time that Indian Tribal Governments are 

eligible for elective pay.

And I'll leave the specifics to Jim 

Colombe when we do the Office of Tribal and 

Native Affairs update, because this is really 

important and I don't want to short shrift that 

conversation.

In terms of, you know, Treasury 

itself, you know, we are going to be -- we have 

been meeting with a lot of tribal delegations, 

which is really important to us. We welcome 

our tribal delegations to come and visit us 

here in D.C.
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But the other thing that we're 

working on is really getting out and about into 

Indian Country. And as we heard yesterday, 

both the Secretary and Deputy Secretary talked 

about their visits to Indian Country during 

their awards ceremony.

They were asked, you know, what were 

some of the important things that you've done 

this year. And they both, completely 

unscripted, talked about the fact that they 

visited the Rosebud Sioux and then two tribes 

in California. And they felt that that was 

really illuminating.

So, we hope to bring more of our 

Treasury colleagues out to Indian Country, 

because it's one thing to talk about policy, 

it's another thing to really experience it on 

the ground. And I think that's the best way to 

educate all of us on the work that we're doing.

We continue to participate in the 

White House Council on Native American Affairs. 

And we're excited about some of the work 
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that's happening there in terms of access to 

capital. That's something that we've promised 

Indian Country that we would work on.

But what I think is really exciting 

about that work is in the access to capital, 

there is a budget task force that is being 

stood up to talk about what does full funding 

look like for Indian Country, what does fully 

funding the trust and treaty obligations look 

like in Indian Country.

And that's really exciting to think 

about the fact that we might actually get that 

work completed so that tribes can understand 

where they are, where we need to be, and how we 

work together as agencies throughout the whole 

of government, along with our native nations.

In terms of the TTAC work, you know, 

as you can see, this is our second meeting of 

the year. We hope to announce a third in 

September. And then we'll start again afresh 

in December with another one.

We are continuing to work on 
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curriculum here at Treasury to ensure that all 

departments within Treasury that works with 

Indian Country understand trust and treaty 

obligations, sovereign-to-sovereign 

relationships, and how we can best complement 

and work together as we implement various 

programs at Treasury, but also understand what 

the underpinnings of Indian law are.

There's cross-agency work. You'll 

hear a little bit more about that on the IRA 

and the infrastructure law, to ensure that we 

have good uptake on all the eligible programs, 

and tax credits, and deployment of funds.

And I think I probably will leave it 

at that, except to say that we did meet with 

the newly-appointed IRS Commissioner, Daniel 

Werfel, last week. He sends his regrets. His 

calendar did not allow him to attend this 

meeting. But we are hopeful that he will be 

able to attend the September meeting. And 

we'll try to make sure that we get him on our 

calendar.
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And we'll talk a little bit about 

the consultations. But just know that we are 

developing all the feedback on all of the 

consultations that we have held since October 

for consideration here at Treasury and then 

back out to Indian Country.

I want to make special note of 

everyone who worked hard to make this meeting 

happen, including our Advisory Committee, 

because they do a lot of work behind the 

scenes. And it's ongoing work with all of the 

subcommittee work that they do. So, even 

though we are having a formal meeting today, 

there has been a lot of work between our last 

meeting in March and today.

And Krishna Vallabhaneni, who has 

worked really hard, not only being our DFO, but 

also on all things IRA. Which I don't know how 

he gets his sleep.

Fatima, Josh, Antonio Wiggins, the 

Treasury Events Team, because there's a lot 

that happens to make this, this meeting happen, 
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and the Treasury Travel Team.

I'd like to acknowledge all of our 

partners, both here and virtually; White House 

Domestic Policy Council, the Bureau of Indian 

Affairs, IRS, Office of Tax Policy, SSBCI, OMB, 

SBA, Commerce, the Office of Racial Equity, and 

all of the tribal organizations who are so 

thoughtful, and our tribal leaders who are also 

so thoughtful in their comments and their 

responses to the numerous consultations that we 

have been having.

But, please rest assured that we 

take all of your comments very seriously. And 

we use your comments to inform policy here.

So, I look forward to the 

discussion. Thank you for letting me go first 

today. And as always, the financial health of 

our Tribal Nations is really at the heart of 

how we provide for our services. So, these 

meetings are very, very important. And they 

are very critical to the people that we are 

serving on the ground. So, Kutapatamawish. 
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Thank you.

CHAIR ALLEN: Thank you, Madame 

Treasurer. Always fun for us to refer to you 

as a former Tribal colleague and as a key new 

leader inside the Department of Treasury.

So, as chair for the Jamestown 

S'Klallam Tribe, and currently the chair for 

the TTAC. I want to thank you, Lynn, for your 

leadership, Krishna, for your leadership, and 

the whole team, Fatima.

I can tell you that we are all very 

delighted about one of the major moves you 

folks made is establishing the Tribal Advisory 

Office in Treasury so that we have a presence 

in the Department that's permanently there.

So, the efforts that you have to go 

through are not going unnoticed. Using double 

negatives, but. So, we deeply appreciate that.

I want to begin the comments with my 

colleagues by saying that I deeply appreciate 

that we continue to meet and move the agenda 

that was established through the GWE 
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legislation back in 2014. And it took us a 

while to get our traction, but we are off on a 

very good start.

So, the three current subcommittees 

on tax parity, and pensions. And more 

importantly, or as importantly, the GWE 

regulation is moving constructively forward. 

And I can tell you I'm very delighted about it, 

Indian Country is very delighted about it.

A preference that I underscore when 

I talk about the importance of this forum and 

Treasury becoming one of the key partners, 

federal partners, with the tribes in advancing 

our mission, goals, and objectives to restore 

the rightful standing of the tribes as 

sovereign nations within the framework of the 

Federal Government of the United States of 

America, and helping us become truly not only 

self-governing but self-reliant.

And you referenced, Lynn,on the 

importance of access to capital and fair 

lending practices as they apply to tribes and 
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tribal citizens is a critical issue.

I closely track the OMB crosscut, 

annual crosscut analysis where it talks about 

how there's approximately 31 or so billion that 

serves all of Indian Country, crisscrossing all 

the federal agencies. And I consistently note 

that the needs of the 574 nations is probably 

north of 350 to 300 million -- or billion, a 

year.

That's a big gap. And we are all 

very conscious of the challenges of the Federal 

Government with regard to all its many 

responsibilities, from Social Security, to 

Medicare, Medicaid, and on down the line to 

defense, and all the many domestic 

responsibilities. Multi-trillions. And my 

understanding is we're well past the 30 

trillion. But the issue is how will the 

Federal Government help enhance the tribes' 

ability to become more self-reliant?

So, the rules of Treasury with 

regard to access to capital is a critical one. 
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The rules and regulations with regard to IRS, 

with regard to tribes' business activities, 

including our corporations, is critical to our 

success.

If we're going to bridge the gap to 

fill the needs of the tribes categorically, 

from the smallest tribes to the largest tribes, 

we have to have that ability to generate that 

unrestricted revenue which, in my judgment, is 

reflective of the character, and the culture, 

and the history of Indian Nations being 

independent nations.

And so, that is the things that we 

are working on here. It is critical for us to 

be able to accomplish those goals. And so, I 

am very delighted that we are moving forward in 

that direction.

The three subcommittees that we have 

now, and I'm going to be proposing later a 

recommendation of another subcommittee that 

deals with the issue of the IRS determination 

of the standing and authority of tribal 
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corporations and LLCs, et cetera. So, it's how 

we're doing business now, and the standing, and 

the importance of transparency so the Federal 

Government is comfortable about how tribes 

establish those corporations and LLCs, et 

cetera.

I've been personally involved. 

There's a number of different Tribal Advisory 

Committees. National Congress of American 

Indians has one. The Native American Finance 

Officers Association has one. And there's a 

new Tribal Capture and Economic Development 

Advisory Committee that is being developed by 

leadership like Henry Cagey at the Lummi 

Nation.

And they are all helping advise us, 

which eventually is advising the Treasury and 

the IRS. So, we engage with them. The Tribal 

Capture and the Economic Development will be 

meeting tomorrow to follow up this conversation 

about what are our next steps. So, we 

consistently engage with them.
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We had a good meeting at NCI 

recently, within the last few weeks. And then 

there was a number of regional meetings that 

also discussed the matters that we have before 

us.

And I and my colleagues, many of my 

colleagues, have been in those meetings and 

providing updates on where we are, how well 

we're doing, and what our challenges are to 

carry out the mandate of this advisory 

committee.

And I just underscore the fact that 

we are advisory. We don't supplement the 

government-to-government relationship that is 

the obligation of the Federal Government 

between all 574 Indian Nations.

So, I'm looking forward to 

continuing this effort and continuing the 

follow-up effort to finalize the GWE 

regulations, to take the next step with regard 

to tax parity, so that we are not competing 

with state or local governments with regard to 
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tax bases and revenues that should be generated 

for the benefit of our peoples, which is 

essential as a government. And people often 

forget that we are governments, too, and we 

have an equal right to generate those kind of 

tax revenues for the benefit of our peoples.

So, the pension, which is a big 

issue, it's a complicated one in terms of, you 

know, what they provide long-term care for all 

of our citizens who work for the tribe and 

tribes. And so that that, those issues are 

going to be really important for us.

I will conclude my remarks with 

those comments. There's always a lot 

underneath the umbrella of what we try to do 

and how we advocate and challenge the Federal 

Government to step up.

The last thing I'll say is I just 

have deep appreciation. This Administration 

has stepped it up in a big and meaningful way. 

The number of tribal citizen appointees, 

including you, Madame Treasury -- Treasurer, is 
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unprecedented. And I thought that it would be 

hard to beat what President Obama did, but 

President Biden is stepping it up a couple 

notches. And so, I think that's a real 

compliment to what we can accomplish under this 

Administration, under this leadership in its 

respect for our Indian Nations.

So, I'll pass on to Rebecca. I know 

Rebecca and Jean Swift, you know, who, as you 

noted, will be moving on to new frontiers. And 

so, I will pass on to Rebecca first.

And, Jean, I'll call on you next 

since you're one of our outgoing members as 

well.

Rebecca.

MEMBER BENALLY: Thank you, Chairman 

Allen.

I'd like to take this opportunity to 

thank everyone out in the audience for being 

here. Your participation means a lot. And 

being involved from your Tribal Nations and 

involvement from Indian Country, so thank you 
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very much for your presence during this 

meeting.

And everyone here that's going to 

speak today. And also our Treasurer, Chief 

Lynn Malerba, we served on the Dual Taxation 

and did a lot of great work.

And then-- so, also, this being my 

last meeting, it has been an honor to serve on 

TTAC and doing work with the Dual Taxation. I 

know that the work will continue. And I trust 

that each and every one of you will continue 

the great work that you are all doing and have 

been doing.

It's never a dull day when you 

represent Tribal Nations and Indian Country 

because, talk about frontier, it's not really 

frontier, we've been here and we will continue 

to be here and work on great things that needs 

to be worked on, whether it's taxation, 

pension, general welfare, or other top 

priorities that will be identified going 

forward.
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And I'd like to thank my technical 

advisor Derrick Watchman, who is in the 

audience, from the Navajo Nation. Thank you 

for your wisdom, knowledge, and information 

that you've shared, your experience. Thank you 

very much for being a great technical advisor.

He answers phone calls at 1:00 a.m. 

So, if you need information.

And, also, you know, I sit here and 

think about how hard and the courage and 

strength that our ancestors have had to come 

this far. And we will continue to work on 

great things. We have a presence here in 

Washington, D.C., and I hope that it just 

becomes greater and greater each time.

So, dual taxation has been one of 

the top priorities. So, I just want to say 

thank you for all the work. And I'll give an 

update later as we get to the topic of giving 

updates on our subcommittees.

And so, with that, thank you very 

much.
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(Applause.)

CHAIR ALLEN: Rebecca, I definitely 

want to say thank you to you and your 

leadership. You have been wonderful to work 

with, and a strong advocate for the tribes and 

our collective interests, as well as you worked 

on the Dual Taxation Tax Parity Subcommittee.

So, thank you. We're wishing you 

well.

At the end of this meeting you'll 

finish your tenure, and then we will work 

together to tee up a good candidate to be 

nominated as your replacement.

So, the other one I want to call 

upon -- and, Sharon, please bear with me. I 

know I should have called upon you as the vice 

chair first, but if you don't mind, I'll 

provide a little opportunity for our outgoing

members.

VICE CHAIR EDENFIELD: That's good.

CHAIR ALLEN: Thank you.

Okay. So, Jean, I'm going to call 
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on you first.

MEMBER SWIFT: Good afternoon, 

Chairman Allen. Thank you for allowing me to 

make some remarks.

And it's really been a privilege. 

I've had a rather short stint on the TTAC, but 

prior to becoming an actual member of the TTAC 

I did serve on the Dual Taxation Subcommittee. 

And I will continue that work on the Dual 

Taxation Subcommittee, just not as a full 

member, if you will, of the TTAC. There's just 

a lot of competing priorities.

And Chief Malerba was very gracious 

in accepting that explanation. So, I want to 

thank her for that. And also thank her for her 

leadership in making the TTAC, bringing it the 

prominence that it needs being under her 

purview as the U.S. Treasurer. So, very 

grateful for that.

I also want to thank my chairman, 

Chairman Rodney Butler, for his fight on the 

dual taxation matters. He's made this very 
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clear, both at the national level and at the 

state level.

And, likewise, my technical advisor, 

Charles Ferguson. And then also legal counsel 

for the Mashantucket, Betsy Conway. All people 

that have been very active in supporting us. 

And we will continue this good fight.

So, thank you again.

CHAIR ALLEN: And thank you, Jean. 

Like Rebecca, your knowledge, expertise is 

going to be dearly missed.

Congratulations on your new 

appointment. We know that that will keep you 

busy pretty much 24/7. But we'll miss you 

without a doubt. You've been a great addition 

to this committee in advising the Treasury.

Okay. So, Sharon, I'm going to 

circle back to you.

VICE CHAIR EDENFIELD: Good 

afternoon, everyone. And I don't know why my -

- oh, there I am.

My name is Sharon Edenfield. I'm
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the -- I serve on a Tribal Council as Tribal 

Treasurer for the Confederated Tribes of Siletz 

Indians located in Oregon.

I do want to welcome Cora. Look 

forward to working with you.

And it's been an honor and a 

privilege serving with Rebecca and Jean. So, 

you will be sorely missed. I want to thank you 

for the time that you did spend on TTAC.

I served as the co-chair on the GWE 

with Chairman Allen. And that report will be 

given to you separately.

Chairman Allen, you know, talked a 

little bit about challenges. And there are 

many in Indian Country. And a couple of them, 

I think, got brought up, one of them got 

brought up at the last public meeting regarding 

NIGC. And I know that that will be discussed 

later on in the agenda.

So, because I know tribes have 

reached out to me regarding the lavish and 

extravagance regarding GWE, so, that will be a 
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point of some discussion.

Always SSA, our subcommittee's been 

working with Social Security. And I want to 

thank Social Security, and I thank Mr. Litsey 

on the virtual. He's attending virtually. But 

they have been very helping. And Ben has been 

very good working with him.

We're not there yet but, hopefully, 

we will get to a place where our tribal 

citizens that receive GWE benefits, while being 

negatively impacted by them that receive SSI. 

A new one that's just come up with my tribe, 

and then I heard of another one, is Medicare. 

So, it's like we just get through one hurdle 

and another one, you know, comes into play.

So, that one will be something I 

will be looking at and working on also.

But I want to thank all of you that 

are there in person and on there virtually. I 

apologize I couldn't be there in person. But I 

will be at the next one.

So, thank you and welcome.
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CHAIR ALLEN: Thank you, Sharon.

Next on my list is Will Micklin.

MEMBER MICKLIN: Thank you, Chairman.

Will Micklin, Vice President, 

Central Council of Tlingit Haida Tribes of 

Alaska.

We'll be giving the Pension 

Subcommittee report later in the meeting. 

Stephanie Williams is in D.C. but she's not 

feeling well, so she may join us later online. 

But I thank her for her diligent work on the 

subcommittee report and the advisors as well. 

Wendy Pearson is my advisor, but as well Robert 

Yoder, and William Wilson, and Brian Howard, 

and Ryan Celu (ph) were among others that 

contributed to the report.

I will, if I believe we have an 

opportunity later, raise the question for 

consideration by the committee of ordering our 

work. I know in the beginning there were the 

emergent issues that needed immediate attention 

with GWE, and dual taxation, and tribal 
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pensions that we are now advanced in our 

process of treating through the TTAC.

But I will be suggesting for 

consideration by the committee that we order 

our work by policy and administration so that 

with the many crosscutting issues that arise 

with the questions of greater complexity that 

Chief Malerba addressed in her opening remarks, 

may be addressed through ordering our 

subcommittee work by that method between policy 

and administration.

And give a greater light to 

questions of administration such as what was 

referenced with the GWE compliance audits, as 

well as the tax administration where individual 

American Indians, Alaska Natives, as well as 

tribal governments and tribal organizations, 

have contact with the Service, and the ability 

of ITG to support that.

Those are administrative issues that 

are important because they are, they are met at 

their field level by all tribes, tribal orgs, 
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and individuals. So, I think it's worthy of 

consideration

Thank you, Mr. Chair, for your 

diligent work. And I look forward to moving 

forward with the meeting.

Thank you. Gunalchéesh.

CHAIR ALLEN: Thank you, Will.

And Stephanie Williams from AlabamaCoushatta is ill today, so she couldn't attend 

and provide any updates or comments on her 

behalf.

And we certainly do wish her well in 

terms of getting reappointed, I think by the 

House Ways and Means Committee.

So, I will turn to our newest 

member, Cora White Horse from the Oglala Lakota 

Sioux Tribe.

Cora.

MEMBER WHITE HORSE: Thank you.

Thank you very much. And I wanted 

to say thank you to Chief Malerba for the 

appointment. And I really appreciate it. And 
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I really look forward to working with everybody 

here.

I've been in tribal politics since I 

was a little girl. And I really appreciate and 

I'm excited to work with Ron because I have 

seen his work since I was very young.

And I was really looking forward to 

working with Rebecca on the dual taxation. So, 

I am sorry that she's leaving.

But I am looking forward to this. 

And I am excited, and I can't wait to get 

started.

CHAIR ALLEN: Thank you, Cora. We're 

looking forward to working with you as well. 

You're going to find out that you may get 

delegated a lot more work than you want. So 

don't leave the room, get some advice.

So, I'm going to now, the next item 

is the minutes. I'm going to turn back to our 

co-chair DFO Krishna.

MR. VALLABHANENI: Thank you, 

Chairman Allen.
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APPROVAL OF MINUTES

MR. VALLABHANENI: At this point I 

would just like to motion for the approval of 

the minutes from the March 14th, 2023, meeting 

of the TTAC.

Do I have? I'll motion to approve 

it.

Do I have a second?

CHAIR ALLEN: You have a second.

MR. VALLABHANENI: All right. Motion 

is passed, I guess.

Do we vote?

CHAIR ALLEN: Yes, we do. We have to 

go member by member to vote.

MR. VALLABHANENI: Got it. Okay.

I'm getting a little rusty here. 

It's only the 11th time I'm doing this, so I 

apologize.

All right, we will start with, I'll 

start the roll with Chairman Allen.

CHAIR ALLEN: Yes.

MR. VALLABHANENI: Vice Chair 
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Edenfield.

VICE CHAIR EDENFIELD: Yes.

MR. VALLABHANENI: Rebecca Benally.

MEMBER BENALLY: Yes.

MR. VALLABHANENI: Cora White Horse?

MEMBER WHITE HORSE: Yes.

MR. VALLABHANENI: Will Micklin.

MEMBER MICKLIN: Yes.

MR. VALLABHANENI: Jean Swift.

MEMBER SWIFT: Yes.

MR. VALLABHANENI: All right. That's 

six yeses to no nays. So, motion is accepted. 

For real this time.

(Laughter.)

CHAIR ALLEN: Okay. So, I think our 

next item is the election of officers. I think 

this is primarily for the, I think, the 

technical support.

ELECTION OF OFFICERS

CHAIR ALLEN: So, the first one I 

have is Cora White Horse.

MEMBER MICKLIN: Mr. Chair, I move 
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for naming Cora White Horse, Oglala Sioux Tribe 

tribal member, to the Tribal Pensions 

Committee.

Sorry.

CHAIR ALLEN: Yeah, Will, you're 

ahead of the script.

MEMBER MICKLIN: Oh, I'm sorry.

CHAIR ALLEN: So, Cora is going to be 

nominating her technical advisor.

MEMBER MICKLIN: Sorry.

MEMBER WHITE HORSE: I would like to 

nominate Xavier Barraza as my Technical 

Advisor, attorney from Peebles Kidder.

MR. VALLABHANENI: Is there a second?

CHAIR ALLEN: I will second it.

MR. VALLABHANENI: Okay. So, I will 

just do a quick roll again for that motion.

Chairman Allen.

CHAIR ALLEN: Yes.

MR. VALLABHANENI: Vice Chair 

Edenfield.

VICE CHAIR EDENFIELD: Yes.
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MR. VALLABHANENI: Rebecca Benally.

MEMBER BENALLY: Yes.

MR. VALLABHANENI: Will Micklin.

MEMBER MICKLIN: Yes.

MR. VALLABHANENI: Jean Swift.

MEMBER SWIFT: Yes.

MR. VALLABHANENI: Cora White Horse.

MEMBER WHITE HORSE: Yes.

MR. VALLABHANENI: All right. Motion 

is approved.

CHAIR ALLEN: Okay. I think our next 

up is Rebecca who is going to make a 

nomination.

MEMBER BENALLY: At this time in my 

last meeting I'm passing on the baton. I 

nominate Cora White Horse to the subcommittee, 

or the Dual Taxation Subcommittee. I know you 

will do well.

MEMBER SWIFT: I will second.

MR. VALLABHANENI: Thank you for the 

second.

I'll go through the roll.
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Chairman Allen.

CHAIR ALLEN: Wait.

MR. VALLABHANENI: Sorry.

CHAIR ALLEN: Cora has to accept the 

nomination.

MR. VALLABHANENI: Oh.

MEMBER WHITE HORSE: Yes. Thank you. 

And I accept the nomination.

MR. VALLABHANENI: Okay. I 

apologize.

I'll go through the roll for the 

approval of the nominations.

Chairman Allen.

CHAIR ALLEN: Yes.

MR. VALLABHANENI: Vice Chair 

Edenfield.

VICE CHAIR EDENFIELD: Yes.

MR. VALLABHANENI: Rebecca Benally.

MEMBER BENALLY: Yes.

MR. VALLABHANENI: Will Micklin.

MEMBER MICKLIN: Yes.

MR. VALLABHANENI: Jean Swift.
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MEMBER SWIFT: Yes.

MR. VALLABHANENI: I'm not sure you 

vote on yourself, so. Okay, thank you.

CHAIR ALLEN: Okay. So, the next, 

now you're up, Will.

MEMBER MICKLIN: Sorry to jump ahead.

So, I'd like to nominate TTAC 

member, Oglala Sioux Tribal Member Cora White 

Horse to the Pensions Committee.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

CHAIR ALLEN: I'll second it.

MEMBER WHITE HORSE: Thank you. And 

I accept the nomination.

MR. VALLABHANENI: Okay. So, on that 

nomination I'll read the roll and seek 

approval.

Chairman Allen.

CHAIR ALLEN: Yes.

MR. VALLABHANENI: Vice Chair 

Edenfield.

VICE CHAIR EDENFIELD: Yes.

MR. VALLABHANENI: Rebecca Benally.
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MEMBER BENALLY: Yes.

MR. VALLABHANENI: Will Micklin.

MEMBER MICKLIN: Yes.

MR. VALLABHANENI: Jean Swift.

MEMBER SWIFT: Yes.

MR. VALLABHANENI: Okay. Motion is 

adopted.

CHAIR ALLEN: Okay. I think that is 

the end of nominations and appointments that we 

needed to make today. So, I'm going to turn it 

back over to you again --

MR. VALLABHANENI: Sure.

CHAIR ALLEN: -- Krishna for the 

federal updates.

MR. VALLABHANENI: All right. And 

so, at this time we'll start off with the folks 

from --

CHAIR ALLEN: Can I interrupt just 

for a second?

MR. VALLABHANENI: Sure.

CHAIR ALLEN: It just dawned on me we 

didn't introduce our delegation here.
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MR. VALLABHANENI: Oh yeah.

CHAIR ALLEN: So, we might to refresh 

everybody who's who at the table.

MR. VALLABHANENI: Sure.

Carmen, you want to go ahead?

MS. ZUCKER: Good morning. Carmen 

Zucker with the IRS Office of Indian Tribal 

Governments.

MR. HULSE: Good afternoon. My name 

is Mark Hulse with the Office of the IRS Chief 

Counsel.

MR. MOJIRI-AZAD: Good afternoon. 

I'm Lisa Mojiri-Azad. I'm with IRS Office of 

Chief Counsel, Income Tax and Accounting.

MR. MEGOSH: Good afternoon. My name 

is Andy Megosh. I'm also with the Office of 

Chief Counsel, and the Associate Office of 

Employer Benefits, Exempt Organizations, and 

Employment Tax.

MR. VANCE: Good afternoon. I'm 

Scott Vance, the Associate Chief Counsel for 

Income Tax and Accounting in the IRS Office of 
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Chief Counsel. We have jurisdiction over the 

general welfare exclusion topic.

MR. BROWN: Yeah. I'm Thomas Brown,

and intern at the IRS Office of Chief Counsel, 

Income Tax and Accounting.

MR. DUNLAP: Jonathan Dunlap. I'm an 

attorney at IRS Office of Chief Counsel, Income 

Tax and Accounting.

MS. PARNELL: I'm Julia Parnell. I 

work with Andy Megosh at the IRS Office of 

Chief Counsel and Triple E.

MS. STEEPHEN: I'm Anisha Steephen. 

I'm in the counsel with the Racial Equity 

Office at Treasury.

CHAIR ALLEN: If I might, we have our 

quota of attorneys.

(Laughter.)

MR. VALLABHANENI: I think we passed 

that a long time ago. I say that as one, so.

Chairman Allen, is there anyone in 

the audience you would like to specifically 

identify? Or I can't -- I'm not sure.
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CHAIR ALLEN: No.

MR. VALLABHANENI: Okay.

CHAIR ALLEN: I think that there will 

be some that are going to be coming, stepping 

up when the public comment is made.

MR. VALLABHANENI: Perfect.

CHAIR ALLEN: Then we'll recognize 

them.

MR. VALLABHANENI: Sounds good. 

Good, because I was hoping you would not 

identify Telly Meier.

(Laughter.)

MR. VALLABHANENI: Yeah, sorry. 

Okay, good.

FEDERAL AGENCY UPDATES

MR. VALLABHANENI: At this time I'd 

like to invite our speakers from partner 

federal agencies, departments. I'll start off 

with Morgan Rodman from the White House.

MR. JACKSON: Hey, Krishna, Morgan is 

not going to be joining us till about 2:30.

MR. VALLABHANENI: Okay.
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MR. JACKSON: So, we'll go with the 

Social Security Administration.

MR. VALLABHANENI: All right. Okay, 

Morgan's not going to be with us until later. 

So, I will next move to Richard Litsey from the 

Social Security Administration.

Mr. Litsey, are you -- There you 

are. Okay.

MR. LITSEY: Sorry. I froze.

MR. VALLABHANENI: No problem.

MR. LITSEY: Yeah.

Richard Litsey, Office of Native 

American Partnerships for the Social Security 

Administration.

Do you want your report now or, I'm 

sorry?

MR. VALLABHANENI: Yes. Yes, please. 

Sorry about that.

MR. LITSEY: Okay. Okay, hold on one 

sec. Let me get to it.

All right. Of course, we are in 

receipt of, have been in receipt of Chairman 
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Allen's position paper and recommendations.

We have met regarding the Tribal 

General Welfare Exclusion Act.

And we have met informally with our 

Office of General Counsel which suggests we 

pass it on to some other folks. And the 

position paper is now with the Office of 

Program Law, Office for Income Security 

Programs, and the Office of Legislation, 

Congressional Affairs.

When we get everything, get their 

comments back, all of their comments back we 

will report. For sure we will be reporting in 

September but we, hopefully, we'll get the 

report back soon and we can pass it on to 

Chairman Allen for dissemination among the --

among TTAC.

That's it.

MR. VALLABHANENI: Thank you very 

much.

Any questions from the members?

CHAIR ALLEN: If I might, Mr. Chair. 
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Richard, is SSA working diligently to put out 

the notice or the information to the tribes 

through the national and/or regional 

organizations so that we're able to alert the 

tribes on the portals that you're setting up to 

assure that tribes, tribal citizens, are not 

being negatively harmed by the benefits 

provided by the tribes.

Could you provide an update on that 

effort?

MR. LITSEY: Right now, Chairman 

Allen, right now the different offices that I 

mentioned have your position paper and are 

reviewing it. And then from there we will do 

as you mentioned with other -- get the word 

out.

But I want to get the word back to 

TTAC first so we can discuss how, whatever 

they're, whatever they're deciding on as a 

result of your position paper. Right? I don't 

have that information yet.

CHAIR ALLEN: Okay. All right. Then 
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we'll await to hear back from your office in 

the near future.

MR. LITSEY: Hopefully, hopefully 

soon, because they've had it since you sent it 

to us. We moved it, forwarded it on.

We would hopefully have it before 

the September 4th, or September meeting. And 

so that when we do have the September meeting 

we can discuss it then, or whatever we have to 

do next, next steps. But so far I have not 

heard back from everyone. So, hopefully, that 

will be short, in short time.

CHAIR ALLEN: Okay. So, my last 

point I think Sharon Edenfield and I have been 

taking a lead role. I don't know if some of 

our other colleagues want to engage. But we 

stand ready to have sidebar conversations, if 

necessary, on --

MR. LITSEY: Sure.

CHAIR ALLEN: -- how we can decide on 

what next steps are, to improve the 

relationship between the GWE benefits versus 
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how SSA and SSI will handle those matters.

Thank you.

MR. LITSEY: Absolutely.

VICE CHAIR EDENFIELD: Chairman 

Allen, I have a comment. This is Sharon.

The question I have is the letter 

that was submitted from Chairman Allen and 

myself, our two tribes. Would that come back 

to the subcommittee first before it goes to the 

full TTAC? Because we didn't run that through 

TTAC.

So, would it need to go back to the 

subcommittee first? That's my question.

CHAIR ALLEN: Okay, I think that's so 

noted, Sharon. And we'll collaborate with 

Richard.

VICE CHAIR EDENFIELD: Okay. That 

sounds good. Because we didn't run it through 

the TTAC Committee. We did that as individual 

tribes, from your tribe and my tribe.

MR. LITSEY: Yeah. However you want 

to handle that. I guess I assumed it came from 
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the Committee. But if it hasn't been run by 

them, I'm trying to move on it as quickly as 

possible.

VICE CHAIR EDENFIELD: Yeah. Mr. 

Litsey, it came from our subcommittee. It was 

through our subcommittee, not the full TTAC.

MR. LITSEY: Okay.

CHAIR ALLEN: Yes.

VICE CHAIR EDENFIELD: That's why I 

questioned the process, you know, how that 

comes back to the full TTAC.

MR. LITSEY: Okay.

CHAIR ALLEN: Yeah. And, Sharon, as 

soon as Richard responds to us, then we'll 

communicate with --

MR. LITSEY: Yes.

CHAIR ALLEN: -- all of our 

colleagues on this particular topic.

But which is inclusive of, Sharon, 

with NCI and the full et cetera, because we 

have a high interest in those forums. So, to 

communicate with our tribes and their citizens.
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MR. LITSEY: Right.

CHAIR ALLEN: Okay.

MR. LITSEY: And that's why we will 

get back to you, Chairman, and your 

subcommittee.

CHAIR ALLEN: Yes. I apologize. I 

forgot we couldn't do it officially from this 

body. So, we sent it through --

MR. LITSEY: Sure.

CHAIR ALLEN: -- through my tribe.

Okay, fair enough.

MR. VALLABHANENI: Mr. Micklin, do 

you have a question?

MEMBER MICKLIN: Thank you. I'd like 

to say hello to my friend Mr. Richard Litsey. 

And also, greetings to SSA Acting Commissioner 

Dr. Kilolo Kijakazi. I don't know if I'm close 

to that pronunciation, Richard.

MR. LITSEY: Very close.

MEMBER MICKLIN: And thank you and 

the commissioner for attending the Public 

Health Summit in Anchorage in May where there 
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is a discussion, tribal leaders discussion on 

issues that Chairman Allen just spoke to.

And we are interested in -- I think 

you heard an expression of interest in a number 

of issues of the SSA education programs for 

assistance based on need or ABON through 

collaboration with tribes. And SSA and SSI 

benefits and COVID-19 benefits excluded from 

SSI eligibility and income determinations that 

implicates Medicare, Medicaid, VA benefits, 

child care credits, SNAP, et cetera, to varying 

degrees.

We are interested in that 

information being disseminated through third 

party sites. In Alaska that's Nome, Kodiak, 

Kenai, and Ketchikan. And we're interested in 

extending the outreach, that educational 

outreach to all tribal communities as much as 

possible. That is worth discussion.

But for the purposes of TTAC, we're, 

as you have heard, very interested about 

potential impacts to tribes and tribal citizens 
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of SSA, SSI treatment of ABON and other types 

of income.

We know Treasury published FAQs for 

payments by Indian Tribal Governments to their 

individual members under COVID relief 

legislation. And I think this discussion to 

TTAC will further that information about tax 

treatment and reporting requirements for these 

payments, and refer specifically to those 

sources of income, and particularly concerned 

with COVID relief payments.

So, we thank you for that.

We understand that there is perhaps 

legislation intended to be moving to resolve 

issues with tax, these credit and income 

inclusion issues in the SSA and SSI formulas. 

It doesn't look like it's moving any time 

quickly, so this discussion to TTAC about the 

programs and purposes for Title 16 and the 

other areas of concern are going to be very 

important.

So, I thank you for your 
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collaboration. You come in with a bang, seeing

a lot of tribal folks. And so I thank you for 

that. And I look forward to engaging with you 

on this important issue.

Thank you, Richard.

MR. LITSEY: Thank you, Will.

CHAIR ALLEN: If I might, Mr. Chair. 

So, I don't know the political process where 

Treasury, SSA, et cetera, proposes or how they 

work any proposed legislation to remedy 

problems such as what Will was identifying. 

But it would be helpful for us, as tribal 

leaders, to know what the department or the 

agency thinks is needed in order to address the 

issue that Will raised, as well as others that 

we are struggling.

So, if we know what impediment, what 

legislative impediment that we're struggling 

with, then it helps us go to The Hill as tribal 

leaders to ask for or seek legislative 

remedies.

I know that there has been some 
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issues with regard to SSA. I think that's what 

Will was getting at. But it's just a matter of 

how we work with the Administration on making 

that happen.

So, Richard, I know we have had some 

conversations with your colleagues on this 

topic. And I know Sharon and I have. So, that 

would certainly be helpful for us.

MR. LITSEY: Right.

CHAIR ALLEN: If we need legislative 

remedies. Thank you.

MR. LITSEY: Exactly.

CHAIR ALLEN: Okay.

MR. LITSEY: If I may, having 

reviewed everything that you sent us, and what 

I reported on, you're absolutely right, 

regardless of what these different offices come 

up with, removing any impediments to getting 

this done as quickly as possible I think is 

extremely important. And I am hoping that we 

certainly will encourage them to say, well, 

okay, if you can't do it this way, what needs 
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to be done so we can get it done?

So, that's where we, or my office is 

coming from.

CHAIR ALLEN: Okay, thank you.

Just FYI, first thing that goes when 

you're getting older is your hearing. Second 

thing is your sense of humor. I've still got 

that. So, I'm living on the edge here.

MR. VALLABHANENI: You might want to 

seek a second opinion, Chair.

(Laughter.)

CHAIR ALLEN: All right, thank you.

MR. LITSEY: You're welcome.

MR. VALLABHANENI: Thank you, Mr. 

Litsey and members.

MR. LITSEY: You're welcome.

MR. VALLABHANENI: Next I'd like to 

invite from the Department of the Interior --

I'm going to screw this name up, I apologize --

Wizipan Garriott.

MR. GARRIOTT: Thank you. And I 

apologize, everyone, I'm unable to be there in 
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person.

My name is Wizipan Little Elk 

Garriott. I serve as the Principal Deputy 

Assistant Secretary for Indian Affairs at the 

U.S. Department of Interior. And always, 

always appreciate to our friends and colleagues 

at Department of Treasury for including us in 

these meetings, as well as the members of the 

TTAC for including us.

And it's always good to see friends 

and colleagues, teachers and mentors here.

So, I just have three -- we always 

have a lot of things going on at Interior, a 

lot of updates. But I think that there are 

three that are particularly important for this.

Especially as we think about, you 

know, parity for tribal governments, right, 

that it's extremely important, very important 

that we continue to honor our constitutional 

duties. You know, as federal employees we also 

swore an oath to the U.S. Constitution to 

uphold it, which always includes our treaty 
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clause, that treaties are the supreme law of 

the land. And that from that flows a trust 

responsibility to act in the best interests of 

tribes.

And so, that is always constantly at 

the forefront of our thinking in terms of, you 

know, how we can do that.

And one way is making sure that we

are doing right by tribes when it comes to data 

sovereignty, data protection, and utilizing the 

best data in the ways the tribes want us to in 

order to promote and advance policies that are 

going to work for us to support tribes.

So, we have helped to lead the 

formation of a data, interagency data working 

group. And we are having a consultation on 

that. I think I saw that in the chat. That 

consultation will be Tuesday, June 20th. Your 

tribal leader letter has gone out. And we hope 

that we get as much participation as possible.

And, of course, this is a natural 

outflow, actually, of a lot of the work, the 
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heroic work that, actually, Treasury did in 

terms of getting a lot of that ARPA funding 

out, and working so diligently to develop a 

formula and then continue to improve that 

formula. And I think that the last version 

that we saw was probably -- was pretty good.

I think that Indian Country really 

did a great job in advising on that. And 

Treasury is taking a lot of different views, 

and formulas, and putting something together 

that really makes sense.

So, what next as we think about 

collecting more data, especially to inform 

funding and funding allocation decisions?

So, what should we do with the data?

What data should we collect?

How should we protect it?

Is there data the tribes feel should 

be made public, et cetera?

These are the kind of questions that 

we're going to be asking, that we're wrestling 

with. And we would love to be able to have as 
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much tribal input, participation and guidance 

as possible within that.

Second, you know, we are 

participating in the task force, you know, the 

budget task force that Chief and Treasurer Lynn 

Malerba mentioned.

We have also, you know, developed 

what we call the baseline report, which is a 

baseline of kind of what does just basic, and I 

won't even call it adequate, but basic funding 

for Indian Country look like?

And, of course, that helps to inform 

and helps kind of provide more data that 

informs our own tribal budget, Interior 

Advisory Council. Of course, Ron is one of the 

chairs in that. And so, that is something that 

we have formulated.

You know, we're continuing to share 

with TIBC and with other entities, you know, 

groups and tribes to be able to start thinking 

about, like, what does that look like? What 

can we do to begin fully meeting our treaty and 
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trust obligations that we have?

And then, finally, you know, 

everyone is, you know, on pins and needles. 

We're anticipating a decision from the Supreme 

Court, you know, very, very soon, we don't know 

when, on ICWA.

And I just want to reiterate to this 

group and to our colleagues, you know, that we 

stand with ICWA. We're, you know, we need to 

defend ICWA. And we hope that we get a good 

decision from the Supreme Court.

But we're also, you know, being 

realistic about things and, you know, 

anticipating that there, you know, there might 

be some work to do.

And we're going to have to really 

rely on Indian Country to help move that, that 

forward in terms of what needs to be done.

Of course, we don't have the 

decision yet, but it's something that we are, 

you know, antic -- it's taking up a lot of our 

time thinking about how we're going to respond. 
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And then we'll have to move very quickly. And 

we're ready and prepared to put a lot of time 

and energy into responding and figuring out 

what we need to do next.

So, like I said, we have a lot of 

updates. We could continue to talk. But it's 

better for us to listen.

And so, with that, I'll hand it back 

to the chairs.

MR. VALLABHANENI: Chairman Allen, 

do you have any --

CHAIR ALLEN: Thanks, Wizi, for that 

update. We always appreciate the great work 

that you and Brian and your team is doing over 

there in the Department.

So I have two questions I want to 

throw at you. One is, what is the status of 

updating the Indian Trader Act regulations 

that, as you know, hasn't been updated since 

'59? And so I'm curious where it is in the 

updating. I know it was a priority for you and 

Brian.
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And then the other question related 

to it was the licensing under that authority, 

and because I know of -- I know of some that 

want to get a license as a -- as a trader for 

economic development within -- on and within 

tribal reservations. 

So do you have any update on those 

two questions?

MR. GARRIOTT: So with regard to the 

Indian trader regs, you know, as you know, we 

have -- you know, have put out several draft 

regs, fee to trust, the Part 83, and a few 

others. And so a lot of our time and attention 

has been on those.

We are currently in the process of 

working on our -- the Indian arts and crafts 

regs, which we've put a draft out and seeking 

comment. And then soon -- don't have an exact 

date -- we'll be putting out our agriculture 

leasing regs as well.

And so the Indian trader regs is 

something we'd love to be able to take a look 
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at, but we can only balance so many regulatory 

processes at the same time. And so, you know, 

again, it's something we want to take a look 

at, but, you know, we've really just been 

working on these other regulations right now.

And then on the licensing piece, we 

must -- must be behind the Chairman. We have 

just had an influx of requests on Indian trader 

license renewals. And I'm going to be very 

honest here, it's something that we haven't 

taken a look at, but these requests are forcing 

us to take a look at that.

And so we are going to be coming out 

with some more information and guidance on what 

that process is and what it looks like. But, 

again, it's just something that we haven't 

taken a look at. And of course, as everyone 

knows, in the absence of regs, we have to have 

policies to help guide us. And so it's very --

your question is very, very timely.

CHAIR ALLEN: Yeah. I won't pursue 

it any further -- other than we'd like to 
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circle back to you and your team, as well as 

I'm assuming the solicitor's office is engaged 

on these two questions.

We in the northwest, we got 

requests, you know, as you're well aware of the 

Cougar Den decision up in Yakama Nation, and 

then -- and then they have citizens who are 

wanting to get licensed exercising that 

authority. And so the question is broader than 

just within that reservation. It's how they 

conduct commerce with other reservations as 

well. 

So if we know who to talk to, just 

to get an idea what next steps are, and/or if 

there is need for legislative clarification as 

well. So right now I don't know who it is, but 

if you could share that with us, I have a 

personal interest in it from the northwest.

Thank you.

Any other questions from any of our 

committee members?

CHIEF MALERBA: I have a comment.
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CHAIR ALLEN: You've got a comment? 

Lynn, go ahead.

CHIEF MALERBA: Yeah. I just wanted 

to say -- and, you know, I said -- you know, we 

usually refer to you very informally, but I'm 

just going to say Principal Deputy Assistant 

Secretary Garriott -- I had to look it up.

(Laughter.)

CHIEF MALERBA: But I did just want 

to say thank you so much for your partnership 

and your collaboration. It means everything to 

us here at Treasury, because we really do work 

on so many issues together behind the scenes. 

And so we always appreciate you attending this 

meeting, but more so the work that we do 

together. So thank you.

CHAIR ALLEN: So, Mr. Chair, I don't 

think we have any other hands up at this point.

So I just want to say thank you, 

Wizi, for your strong leadership over there. 

Thank you.

MR. GARRIOTT: Thank you very much.
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Next, we have -- I would invite 

speakers from the Department of Energy. And I 

apologize if I -- you know, for somebody with 

their own funny-sounding name, you'd think that 

you'd do a better job at figuring this out.

But Alyse Taylor --

DR. TAYLOR-ANYIKIRE: Anyikire.

MR. GARRIOTT: Okay. Thank you. 

And Matthew Ferguson.

DR. TAYLOR-ANYIKIRE: Yes. I'm 

Alyse Taylor-Anyikire with the Department of 

Energy. I'm in the Office of Policy, and today 

we are going to talk about the -- some of the 

tax credits that DOE has been working with in 

partnership with Treasury.

Matt, did you want to introduce 

yourself, or did you want to wait until your 

presentation?

MR. FERGUSON: I can wait until my 

presentation. Thank you.

DR. TAYLOR-ANYIKIRE: So, obviously, 

the Inflation Reduction Act made a lot of tax 
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credits available, and so I kind of wanted to 

walk through some of the major tax credits. 

DOE has been working with Treasury, so DOE has 

the energy expertise, and obviously the 

Treasury has the tax expertise. I'm just going 

to kind of walk through some of these today.

I know that during the meeting 

someone is going to talk about the direct pay. 

So I'll go over that briefly here, but I guess 

you're going to get a further explanation of it 

later in the day.

Can you all see this, the first 

slide?

MR. VALLABHANENI: Yes.

DR. TAYLOR-ANYIKIRE: Okay. This is 

-- these are the major tax credits that you can 

get direct payment on. These are all of the 

kind of energy-relevant tax credits that DOE 

has been working with Treasury on. I think the 

two biggest ones to draw your attention to are 

45 and 48 on the clean electricity production 

credit and the clean electricity investment tax 
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credit. 

That's basically tax credits for 

either producing or investing in clean energy. 

Those are the ones that are the biggest and 

most available tax credits, and they also come 

with bonuses, which I will get into a little 

bit later. There are also other relevant tax 

credits I think might be relevant to Indian

country.

There is 30(c), which is alternative 

fueling, a tax credit for carbon sequestration, 

if you're interested in clean hydrogen, if 

you're trying to increase the number of 

commercial cooled vehicles, and several others. 

I think they're all listed here with varying 

information, but I want to give you a little 

bit more information about some of the bonuses 

available with the clean -- these two tax 

credits here, 45 and 48.

And I just want to, before I move 

forward, so the thing that makes these tax 

credits better than some of the previous 
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iterations is they are available for direct 

pay.

So even though you may not have a 

tax obligation, if you invest in some of these 

products, you can get the tax benefit back as a 

direct payment, which is I think a very 

significant improvement. These direct payments 

are eligible to tribal governments, Alaska 

Native corporations, or any other nonprofit 

organizations.

Their process of bonuses, if you 

kind of go with this. I'm going to highlight a 

couple of these here. For starters, there is 

an energy community tax credit bonus, so this 

is a bonus credit available for the clean 

energy production and clean energy investment 

tax credit for communities that have been 

previously, you know, dependent on fossil 

infrastructure. So that's where they have 

retired coal plants and coal mines and are kind 

of dependent on fossil energy infrastructure.

And there is a map here that kind of 
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showcases what communities that entails, but 

there are also -- this is something that's not 

pictured here, and that's brownfields. If you 

live on a brownfield or you're -- where you're 

going to put that project is on a brownfield, 

that would also be included.

If you rotate your projects, and 

your energy community has a project, that's a 

10 percent increase on the tax credit. So 

that's pretty significant. And then these tax 

credits can stack with other bonuses. So I'm 

going to get into that in here.

If you'd like additional guidance, I 

can provide the slides. Treasury recently put 

out guidance -- I think actually today -- kind 

of went more into the direct pay, but also 

about two weeks ago they provided increased 

information about energy communities as well. 

You can find that information about this there.

The other significant bonus is there 

is an environmental justice bonus which comes 

in four different categories. This is, again, 
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in addition to the clean electricity tax 

credit. Again, you can stack with other 

things. 

This one is a little bit different. 

It's limited to 1.8 gigawatts per year total 

and to products that are five megawatts or 

smaller. And Treasury last week recently put 

out their proposal about what the capacity 

limits for each of these should be. And I'm 

going to kind of walk through these.

So if the project is located in a 

low income community, there is a chance you can 

get possible 10 percentage points. 

Looking at the environment justice 

index for a second, so for these you can only 

get one of the four of these. So in the 

previous one, if your energy justice can be --

an energy committee can apply for that. They 

can only apply for one of these environmental 

justice bonuses. So they each have different 

percentage points that can plus you up, but you 

can only apply for one of the four of these.
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Under the four are, if you are

located in a low-income community, that's a 

plus up of 10 percentage points. If the 

project is located on Indian land, that's 10 

percentage points. If the project is located 

on a low-income residential building, which 

would include tribally designated housing, 

that's 20 percentage points.

And also, the last one category the 

project provides over 50 percent of the total 

financial benefit to low-income households, 

also 20 percentage points.

So last week the Treasury Department 

put out a notice saying the thing with the 

limits to technical specification on each of 

these would be, it's available for comment I 

believe for two more weeks. 

So if you have questions about the 

proposed capacity limits or exactly how they 

are defining Indian land or tribally designated 

housing entities. Those are all those kind of

specifications that others have provided by 
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comment to Treasury and to us to say how you 

think those things -- how we kind of specify 

how we think those things will work. It's an 

opportunity to kind of give comment back to 

Treasury to say, "Was that the right thing or 

not?"

And then I like to always end with 

this bonus to kind of make this real. So if 

there was a hypothetical one-megawatt facility 

costing $1 million, with the potential to earn 

a 70 percent tax credit worth $700,000, which 

you could get, that's a direct payment.

So the base credits, your IPC or 

TTC, is six percent. That's what you see there 

at the bottom. If you meet prevailing wage and 

apprenticeship requirements, there is 

additional -- you get 30 percent as an 

additional for meeting those prevailing wage 

and apprenticeship requirements.

You get the extra community 

benefits, another 10 percent; domestic content, 

10 percent; if it was located in a low-income 
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community, it's kind of an energy justice as 

well as 10 or 20 percent additional you can get 

there. That's to kind of show how all of these 

credits and bonuses can stack together to 

amount to a pretty substantial tax credit and 

return to make financing these projects much 

easier.

One thing I want to say, these tax 

credits and stacks of loans -- so this is to 

give you a download of some of the loans that 

are available to tribal entities as far as 

these tax credits, and stack with those loans 

to try and help finance projects.

Are there any questions?

CHAIR ALLEN: This is Ron. So thank

you for that quick summary presentation. Will 

you make sure that you send it to us through 

our -- Fatima? Through Fatima's office.

DR. TAYLOR-ANYIKIRE: Yes.

CHAIR ALLEN: So they can -- it can 

be shared with our committee, and then we will 

definitely share it with our intertribal 
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organizations who will be interested in it.

I guess I -- without a doubt, we are 

very familiar with tax credit opportunities. 

Krishna has been very forthright on those 

opportunities. 

And the devil is in the details a 

little bit in terms of processing, you know, 

the application and getting the credit itself. 

So if you have any accompanying documents that 

help clarify those opportunities, that would be 

helpful as well. So we would appreciate that.

So without a doubt, it's an exciting 

opportunity. There is many variations of it, 

if you -- I think you even showed on the 

screen.

That's all I really have. Any 

others? Okay. I don't see any, but there's 

Q&A. There's questions in Q&A. I'm assuming 

you're tracking it in the back, but I don't see 

any other hands at this moment.

I just want to say thank you from 

one of the committee members.
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DR. TAYLOR-ANYIKIRE: Yes. Very 

happy to assist, and I definitely will send 

along my presentation as well as some of the 

guidance that Treasury has put out that kind of 

gets into those details, as you said, and some 

of the details on the environmental justice 

credits that recently came out and they're 

still taking comment.

So, as I stated, we have put it out 

for comment about how that's implemented.

CHAIR ALLEN: One more thing. I 

don't know if I saw your contact information on 

the slides, but make sure that you -- both 

yours and Matt's information -- contact 

information is there, so we can circle back 

with any clarifying questions if you will.

Thank you.

DR. TAYLOR-ANYIKIRE: I can do that. 

Thank you.

MR. VALLABHANENI: All right. I 

guess there's a part 2.

MR. FERGUSON: Good afternoon, 
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Treasurer Malerba, Chairman Allen, and members 

of the committee. Thank you for the 

opportunity to speak to you today about the 

Tribal Energy Finance Program established by 

statute as the Tribal Energy Loan Program --

Loan Guarantee Program.

The program is a tool for tribal 

nations to gain greater access to the energy 

economy and access to credit to help make

affordable energy investments where 

historically there has not been any access to 

credit or capital, even up until now -- direct 

pay -- as it relates to the primary incentive 

for energy investments for past years.

So even if participating likely for 

public, if tribes were financing as a public 

entity, they have been paying about two percent 

more than comparable organizations, or they've 

had to rely upon tax equity structure where the 

initial ownership would be with a decensured 

party, such as a corporate investor.

The Tribal Energy Finance Program 
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was established in the Energy Policy Act of 

2005, and it has been amended substantially 

with the Inflation Reduction Act, whereby now 

tribes have access to $20 billion of credit, 

either as a direct loan or as a loan guarantee 

where a loan would be initiated by a private 

sector lender.

In addition, we have about $80 

million to pay associated costs such as credit 

subsidy.

Our program encourages tribes to 

apply early, and we have pretty much a 

limitless number of pre-application meetings to 

work with tribes and to help them in putting 

together a qualified transaction team to put 

forth a good application. Since this is not a 

grant, this is -- we really are able to enjoy 

tremendous freedom in engaging with tribal 

nations.

The process of the application 

process is broken out where part 1 of the 

application we determine that this is a 
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federally-recognized tribe. This is an energy 

project. And in the second part, we take a 

look at the reasonable likelihood of repayment 

and the viability and feasibility of the 

project.

And then from there we move to due 

diligence where we address things like NEPA and 

cultural matters as well as the usual due 

diligence factors that one needs to take into 

consideration for project finance.

Then we move to the credit review 

process where OMB and Treasury weigh in. And 

then hopefully we move to the conditional 

commitment period, and then finally we move to 

the funding and closing. We have been 

implementing this program, and I'm glad to say 

that we have made tremendous progress in the 

past year. 

We are focusing on three primary 

areas in our implementation plan -- deal 

development, developing our overall outreach 

team, and market development -- because there 
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is a need not only for us to finance large 

ticket projects but also a need to finance 

small and mid-sized ticket projects, as well as 

to take advantage of other financial 

institutions that are serving Indian country 

such as CDFIs.

This is a very broad program. We 

are able to finance energy generation as well 

as energy manufacturing, supply chain, and many 

things related to the gathering of critical 

minerals and mining, everything related to 

energy. And this is also for broad energy 

technologies, and that includes renewable 

energy as well as carbon-based energy.

The election for the direct pay is 

really tremendous. It is really a game 

changer. This allows tribal nations to 

accelerate investments and development plans. 

It allows them to move forward with no reliance 

upon the contingency of grants, and it avoids 

the need for tax equity partners and external 

owners.
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The direct pay, when we take a look 

at it, there are maybe two base ways that I 

think our prospective borrowers take a look at 

it, either as a private sector borrower or as a 

public sector borrower. 

And the base case is where, as a 

private sector borrower, without any type of 

incentives, they would have 20 percent equity 

in a project, and they would borrow 80 percent, 

and hopefully the financial projections would 

satisfy the repayment of the loan, in contrast 

to traditional public sector lending where 100 

percent of the project would be financed with 

debt, and that would be paid off over the 

appropriate time based upon the underwriting 

and the economic life of the asset.

There is a range of capital 

structures that one can envision where taxable 

corporations would have some level of cash or 

capital in a project, enjoy the tax credits, 

and then finance a project with debt. And then 

there is the scenarios where projects that 
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tribal nations are a part of that project where 

they would rely upon tax equity.

However, it is unlikely that in any 

of these scenarios the level of equity would 

maintain a level of that 20 percent, because 

most likely it's not necessary, and it would 

increase the weighted average cost of capital 

for the project. And this would most likely 

lead to higher customer costs.

So the ability for a tribe to 

capitalize a project right now with direct pay 

exclusively, and a tribal direct loan from the 

Department of Energy, would really put a tribal 

nation on par with a public entity such as the 

state and local government.

Thank you.

CHAIR ALLEN: Questions? So I guess 

one of the questions I have, there was a lot in 

that presentation, Matt, so -- in terms of what 

those opportunities are.

If the federal -- if Department of 

Energy would be -- could finance the loan, is 
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that correct? If that's correct --

MR. FERGUSON: They could.

CHAIR ALLEN: You're saying yes?

MR. FERGUSON: Yes.

CHAIR ALLEN: Okay. So how does the 

interest rate get determined?

MR. FERGUSON: We take a look at the 

economic life of the asset. So if the economic 

life of an asset, let's say, is 20 years, we 

would take a look at the 20-year treasury rate, 

and then we would add three-eighths to a half a 

percent on the borrowing rate.

And the economic life of an asset 

would be, let's say, 20 years if there was a 

power purchase agreement for 20 years. That's 

the simplest illustration to kind of justify 

the economic life.

Another way is where an independent 

engineering firm would do an analysis and 

support the economic life of an energy project.

CHAIR ALLEN: So another question. 

Does this program provide the opportunity for 
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exploratory energy generation? An example 

would be tidal.

MR. FERGUSON: Yes. It does afford 

the opportunity for us to finance that project, 

Chairman. Our program is based upon commercial 

terms. So, therefore, the project, such as 

tidal or anything else, would need to evidence 

where there is some means of repayment of the 

loan. And with -- between this program and our 

innovation programs, we really have tremendous 

breadth to be able to finance mainstream 

technologies as well as technologies that may 

be considered innovative or just on the cusp of 

readiness for mainstream.

CHAIR ALLEN: Is there crossover 

coordination between departments? Like, so if 

you were pursuing a Biochar energy project 

where U.S. Forest Service -- I think they have 

programs similar to this -- is there 

collaboration? Can there be collaboration with 

these -- with this opportunity?

MR. FERGUSON: Yes, Chairman. So 
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there can be collaboration, and the overall 

approach that we're taking at the loan program 

office is an all-of-government approach. So we 

do seek out other agencies outside of DOE as 

well as internally within DOE, and we try to 

have substantial coordination with the Office 

of Indian Energy and Policy.

CHAIR ALLEN: Okay. Thank you. 

That's all I have.

Anybody else? Anybody online? 

Questions for Matt?

Okay. Thank you. You'll share your 

presentation slideshow and contact information 

as well, correct?

MR. FERGUSON: Yes, Chairman.

CHAIR ALLEN: Thank you. Appreciate 

the update.

MR. JACKSON: Chairman Allen?

CHAIR ALLEN: Oh. 

MR. JACKSON: We do have a couple of 

questions in the Q&A chat from attendees.

CHAIR ALLEN: Question online?
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MR. JACKSON: Yes.

CHAIR ALLEN: Yes. Go ahead. Who 

is it?

MR. JACKSON: So one is from Allison 

Vinny (phonetic) from the -- for the Department 

of Energy. Would any of our attendees be able 

to view these presentations, the slideshows?

CHAIR ALLEN: I didn't hear the 

question.

MR. VALLABHANENI: The question was, 

is it possible for the virtual attendees or 

attendees in person to view the materials 

provided by the parties?

CHAIR ALLEN: Oh, yes. The answer 

is yes. We will -- once we get the information 

and the presentation, any accompanying 

documents that it would help both of these 

opportunities, we will make sure that they're 

available on -- we can -- on the website,

Treasury website, and then we'll coordinate 

with NCAI and NAFOA to make sure that that 

information is available on those two sites as 
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well.

MR. JACKSON: And then one other 

question we have is, how much in the TELGP has 

been disbursed to tribes to date?

MR. FERGUSON: Unfortunately, we 

have not been able to issue a conditional 

commitment or fund a project as of yet. 

However, we have a number of applications right 

now, and so I anticipate that in the not-toodistant future we will be able to announce at 

least one conditional commitment.

CHAIR ALLEN: Are there any online 

questions?

MR. JACKSON: And then, Will Micklin 

had his hand raised.

CHAIR ALLEN: Go ahead, Mr. Micklin.

MEMBER MICKLIN: Thank you. Thank 

you, Mr. Chairman. Will Micklin, Tlingit 

Haida. So the office -- DOE's Office of Indian 

Energy Policy and Programs has a Tribal 

Advisory Committee, Indian Country Energy and 

Infrastructure Workgroup, that I am a member 
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of.

And I would just suggest that it may 

be helpful for either a TTAC subcommittee or ad 

hoc committee of the whole may benefit from an

opportunity to discuss these issues with the 

Tribal Advisory Group. 

Under Indian energy, we have treated 

these issues, discussed them, and we have a 

pretty broad perspective on what the hurdles 

and challenges and opportunities are for Indian 

country. And that discussion may benefit this 

-- the TTAC. So I will suggest that.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

MR. VALLABHANENI: Are there any 

other questions?

MR. JACKSON: I think that's all 

from online.

MR. VALLABHANENI: Okay. Thanks.

I'll next see if we can invite 

Morgan Rodman from the White House. Welcome.

MR. RODMAN: Thank you. Are you --

am I ready to go? Can you hear me, I should 
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say?

MR. VALLABHANENI: Yeah. I'm sorry. 

We can hear you.

MR. RODMAN: Okay. Great. Well, 

thank you for the opportunity to engage with 

the Treasury Tribal Advisory Committee today. 

It is always an honor when I can connect with 

you all, and I look forward to the next inperson meeting where I can join you at 

Treasury.

So, again, my name is Morgan Rodman. 

I am Cherokee and Osage from Oklahoma, and I 

serve as Executive Director of the White House 

Council on Native American Affairs. It's the 

second time I have served in this position, the 

last time being in 2015 and 2016. 

Of course, the Council is chaired by 

Secretary Haaland, Department of Interior, and 

co-chaired by the Director of the Domestic 

Policy Council, who is Neera Tanden, and the 

other Council members are the secretaries like 

Secretary Yellen, and Treasurer Malerba is a 
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key part of the Council as well.

So I believe that the Advisory 

Committee is familiar with the White House 

Council on Native American Affairs, and you may 

know there are six committees of the Council. 

And these committees cut across all areas --

all issue areas of Indian country, and Treasury 

supports a number of those.

I just heard from Matt from 

Department of Energy a discussion about the 

direct pay, and that's very relevant to one of 

the topics I want to share today, which is the 

Access to Capital Initiative. That's being 

ushered forward by one of the committees of the 

White House Council, which is on economic 

development, energy, and infrastructure. And 

that interagency team there has been 

instrumental in coordinating outreach and 

resource deployment and leading an overall 

effort on working with tribes and Native 

entrepreneurs on the wide-sweeping federal 

resources that are now available.
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And so these are historic levels of 

funding opportunities out there, and the 

committee that I just mentioned from the White 

House Council wants to make sure that those 

funding opportunities are used, and which is 

where the Access to Capital Initiative comes 

in.

And so I want to share a little bit 

about what the initiative is, how and why it 

was developed, and how it works to connect 

tribes and tribal communities and businesses 

with federal financial resources. 

You can find a copy of the Access to 

Capital Initiative on the White House Council 

Native American Affairs website. It's on the 

first page. It's one of our key initiatives.

So the gap -- the gap between

capital and tribes and tribal communities and 

businesses has existed for generations on 

generations as we know. And during his 

campaign, President Biden recognized this gap 

and promised to tackle the problem. 
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And for purposes of this discussion, 

"capital" means grants, loans, loan guarantees, 

and other financial opportunities. And so one 

of the main drivers of the Access to Capital 

Initiative is making sure that especially the 

American Rescue Plan bipartisan infrastructure 

law, and the Inflation Reduction Act resources, 

which are billions and billions of dollars at a 

historic level just set aside for Indian 

country, all three of those laws, that those 

are connected and being used by Indian country.

There have been a lot of 

consultations over the past couple of years and 

on those laws and the resources. And over the 

course of those consultations and engagements 

one of the dominant themes that we've heard 

from tribal leaders is that more help is 

needed. That there is more help that's needed 

in connecting resources with Indian country 

from those laws, which is where that Access to 

Capital Initiative comes in.

And so the initiative attempts to be 
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responsive to tribal recommendations, 

perspectives, and focuses on improving three 

things. One is awareness, two is access, and 

three is utilization of federal financial 

resources from -- for tribes and Native 

entrepreneurs.

And these are the three pillars of 

the initiative. And so, again, pillar 1 

focusing on awareness is entailing the 

identification, summarizing, and dissemination 

of information about the loan and financial 

programs available to tribes. So raising the 

awareness. 

And this is well underway. In fact, 

there are tribal-specific playbooks for the 

bipartisan infrastructure law and the Inflation 

Reduction Act that are now available. You can 

find both of those on the White House website 

and the White House Council website under the 

economic development tab.

These guidebooks really wrap their 

arms around the billions of dollars of funding 
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for Indian country in a categorized, easy-touse fashion. 

And the agencies who are part of the 

Access to Capital Initiative have also 

developed a preliminary list of the capital 

resources that are available and have put those 

on the White House Council webpage on the 

Economic Development Committee tab. It's not 

exhaustive yet. We're still working on it. 

But we're working with OMB to populate --

further populate that list and getting 

information from our agencies.

But please take a look at it in the 

meanwhile. The goal of this effort ultimately 

is to make these resources easier to use and to 

access. And part of that will be developing a 

clearinghouse, and so we have that static list 

of resources from the Council website, but that 

will be turned -- that's actually being turned 

into a searchable dynamic clearinghouse. 

And we have tried a couple of 

different ways with this. I think we've got a 
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pretty secure way towards finalization. But 

that will be shared with tribal leaders. That 

will be shared with Indian country. And the 

whole point is to make -- to make sure there is 

a shared path to those resources.

So be on the lookout for more 

information about this clearinghouse that is 

being developed by the agencies.

One threshold consideration with 

this effort, too, is -- to improving the access 

is knowing how to shape federal programs 

appropriately in the first place to meet the 

needs of tribes and tribal communities. 

And this includes consultation of 

course, but it also includes knowing the 

magnitude and nature of the need out there, 

which is why the Access to Capital Initiative 

is developing a request for information, 

otherwise known as an RFI, that will be going 

out soon for tribal -- for tribal nations. And 

the point of RFI is to ask tribes what their 

total capital needs are to run their 
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governments optimally.

And then we categorized and have 

some callout questions. It's going to be 

voluntary, but something like this I don't 

believe has ever been done by the Federal 

Government, basically just asking tribes what 

your needs are and dollar amounts.

And assuming there is a good and 

healthy response rate, the interagency team 

will communicate back to tribal nations what 

the findings are and how this information could 

be used to improve program development and 

resource deployment for tribes.

So that's the -- that's only the 

first pillar, or actually the first two 

pillars, awareness and improving access.

So the last pillar of the initiative 

is to increase the use of federal capital 

programs, and the interagency teams seeks to do 

this in a few different ways. One is by 

establishing baselines of use in setting and 

tracking metrics. And this effort will be done 
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in coordination with tribes to ensure we have 

the correct data, that we're protecting the 

data appropriately.

The point of this is to make sure 

that programs, again, are connecting and are 

useful to tribes and tribal communities and 

businesses.

And, lastly, as part of this third 

pillar of utilization, the interagency team 

towards the end of this year will be working to 

issue a report on policy, regulatory, and 

statutory changes required to increase access 

to federal funding programs. And that report 

will be converted into an action plan that the 

agencies will commit to.

So that is a quick overview of the 

access to capital. Treasury is a part of that. 

Energy is a part of that. OMB is a part of 

it, Interior, the Council of Economic Advisors.

There are elements, too, but I want 

to make sure we have time for a few questions. 

And thank you.
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MR. VALLABHANENI: Are there any 

questions of the TTAC members?

MEMBER WHITE HORSE: Hello. My name 

is Cora White Horse. I represent the Oglala 

Sioux Tribe.

I have a question on the access to 

capital.

MR. RODMAN: Yes.

MEMBER WHITE HORSE: And we --

actually, my tribe does have an application in 

on the energy -- for solar -- a solar project. 

And one of the things is we -- we are having 

difficulty meeting is the purchase agreements.

We are very isolated, and the 

nearest city is 120 miles from where I live, 

and after that it's even further, 300 to Sioux 

Falls I think. 

And so our plan was to create the 

solar farm and have the -- and allow the tribal 

members and the citizens around the area 

utilize the energy that is created. So we 

presented our plan, but we need a purchase 
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agreement.

And right now there is an electric 

cooperative who provides electricity to our 

area, and it is very, very expensive. But if 

we are to get this purchase agreement, even 

with the tax credits, the cost per tribal 

member would be more than what they are paying 

now, because we would have to set up a grid 

because the grid belongs to the co-op.

So I think that whenever you're 

talking about access to capital, there needs to 

be some type of technical assistance or 

assistance in negotiating with area businesses, 

and there needs to be exceptions to some of the 

policies, such as having the purchase agreement 

for payback, because we -- we don't have a lot 

of money. Otherwise, we would have done it 

ourselves and not come to you guys for help.

So I think that needs to be looked 

at and reviewed somehow. I know that Indian 

tribes are the most studied group of people. 

We have studies for everything to create new 
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formulas, new funding formulas, what tribes 

need, and then they are just set aside.

For example, the Tolowa Report, that 

costs a lot of money, and it was set aside. 

There was a formula created, and we didn't 

benefit from it. No tribe did.

So we need to stop studying and 

start acting. Thank you.

MR. RODMAN: Thank you. And may I 

provide a quick response to that? Thank you 

for that perspective.

Mr. Chairman, may I respond?

MR. VALLABHANENI: Oh, I'm sorry. 

Yes, please.

MR. RODMAN: Okay. Again, thank 

you. One -- I did want to share -- maybe I can 

get your contact information from Fatima and 

connect you with some of the team members here 

at Energy and at Interior or from the other 

Treasury members as well, not necessarily 

Fatima.

But I wanted to share that from 
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Secretary Holland, as the Chair of this 

Council, and the Co-Chair of the Domestic 

Policy Council, one of the directives, if you 

want to call it, or one of the encouraging 

points that that leadership -- that leadership 

has shared with the Secretary and VPC to the 

other Council members is to really use 

administrative flexibility.

Agencies all have some level of 

discretion, right? And so that has been one of 

the major points that has been like a rallying 

point lately throughout the Council is 

administrative flexibilities, including what 

can be done about match requirements. You 

mentioned the purchase agreement. Some of them 

are statutes we have to follow, but there is 

some latitude, and so that is being encouraged 

right now throughout the administration as 

really flexing, where the agencies can, waivers 

and helping tribes connect.

But for your specific issue, ma'am, 

I would want to follow up with you on that.
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MR. VALLABHANENI: All right. Thank 

you.

Mr. Micklin?

MEMBER MICKLIN: Thank you. And 

thank you, Mr. Rodman, for your presentation. 

Will Micklin, Vice President in Tlingit Haida.

I wish first to thank you for the 

RFI initiative. In years past, there was an 

unmet need process through the Bureau of Indian 

Affairs. It was not particularly effective, 

but it was an attempt to determine and assess 

the level of need for funding for tribes, and 

that the RFI is I think a welcome addition to 

the federal portfolio to assess this need.

I think the -- for example, the TBCP 

funds, which were oversubscribed by applicants, 

is an example of, in many officials' view, a 

surprise that there was such a need in 

broadband. And yet with the Alaska broadband 

plan, in its last revision in 2019, assessed 

the -- in its analysis that the cost of 

deploying broadband to all communities in 
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Alaska of 25 individuals or more would be $24 

billion.

So there is an extreme level of 

need, but it really needs to be part of an 

assessment. I would further cite the Tolowa 

legislation, which required a DOJ analysis of 

the funding needs for DOJ Indian programs, and 

that was very insightful in determining that 

the actual appropriations were approximately 

one-tenth of the level of need for Indian 

country for those DOJ programs that are Indian 

policy programs.

So that's an important step. The 

hurdles that keep tribes from accessing capital 

are many, and many are addressed in the current 

credits, the IRL and the BIL, that attempt to 

provide finance and monetization of tax credits 

for tribes.

There are still the gateway issues. 

Many funding opportunities, as you mentioned, 

have non-federal share requirements that cannot 

be waived, or at least waived to a minimum, 
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that they are not as high as they used to be. 

They used to be as high as 50 percent. Now, 

with the waivers, some are down to 10 percent.

But the additional hurdles are 

things like some programs don't allow the use 

of award funds for pre-development activities, 

which means the application development, which 

can be quite expensive for the tribe, and also 

require permits to be in hand before an 

application can be submitted. 

So your Intergovernmental Committee 

or the White House Council Committee that 

combines infrastructure issues, is well formed 

to look at a number of infrastructure issues 

that are hurdles for tribes to achieve their 

goals and improving the general welfare of 

their -- of their tribal citizens.

It is I think telling that the 

issues of finance leave funds on the table, but 

it's not a result -- not -- the cause is not 

the tribes don't have the need. I think the 

RFI will determine -- if there is an extensive 
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need, it will hopefully reveal the higher level 

of need. And a review of what those hurdles 

are that keep tribes from accessing those funds 

are really important.

So I think TTAC looks forward to 

working with you and the White House Council on 

further reviewing those issues and providing 

remedies that are suitable for the flexibility 

available to tribes.

So thank you for your presentation.

MR. RODMAN: Thank you so much, Vice 

President Micklin. We will take your words to 

heart and follow that direction. Thank you.

CHAIR ALLEN: Mr. Chair, being 

consistent with recognizing some of our other 

tribal leaders, can we recognize Henry Cagey, 

who is a councilman from the Lummi Nation.

MR. VALLABHANENI: Welcome.

MR. CAGEY: (Native language 

spoken.) Good afternoon. Henry Cagey with the 

Lummi Nation. And, again, I want to -- well, 

we got the White House's attention on the ICE 
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bill. We brought this to you guys' attention a 

while back, and one of the things that Congress 

was asking was to do a study on the barriers, 

all of the economic barriers that we face in 

Indian country, you know, so those things need 

to happen.

You know, we can dangle all of the 

money ahead of us that you have, but it's not 

going to do any difference until you remove the 

barriers.

Now, these barriers include the 

state, you know, the county, you know, our land 

has to be straightened out. There's a lot of 

barriers to get to economic self-sufficiency is 

what we want. 

You know, what I envisioned the 

Treasury to do is pull that together with the 

White House's support. That ICE bill has been 

sitting out there for almost three years now. 

And that report has to be started, you know, 

and I expect to see the Treasury Department 

take the lead on it and the Advisory Committee, 
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you know.

So these things need to happen 

because, you know, we're hearing all of this 

money that they want to give us, but what good 

is it going to do if you can't remove the 

barriers? You know, so our dual taxation 

report, for example, needs to be, you know, in 

front of these folks at the White House.

You know, the states always 

continue, you know, to reach in to have their 

state and what we do on the res, you know, so 

these things need to be addressed. And it's 

the barriers I'd like you to think about, 

besides thinking about having us think about 

money.

You know, think about our 

sovereignty and how do we strength our economic 

sovereignty. What should that look like? And 

Treasury should be taking the lead on that with 

the White House. We want to hear how you guys 

are going to do it. We want to hear how you 

guys are going to take us through the next, you 
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know, three or four generations, not just three 

or four years.

You know, so we really want to see 

something that is going to make a big 

difference in Indian country. We have the 

opportunity now. But, again, I just want to 

say that, you know, the White House folks is 

that -- you know, the capital need is okay, but 

I want you guys to think about is -- is what 

are the barriers that we need to overcome. 

We can give you all the needs we 

want, or the long list, you know, but we want 

to help you get rid of these barriers that we 

face every day. You know, so we want our 

freedom back, and we want the White House to 

think about what that would look like while 

you've got a chance. (Native language spoken.) 

Thank you.

MR. VALLABHANENI: Thank you.

MR. RODMAN: Thank you, sir.

CHIEF MALERBA: Thank you, 

Councilman Cagey. I appreciate that. And 
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certainly Morgan and our Treasury Tribal team 

has been working hard to talk about how we can 

address those barriers. We need to identify 

them all, and then we can come up with a 

roadmap to address them.

And I appreciate Morgan's leadership 

at WHCNAA, because it is really critical and he 

does keep kind of the conversation open and the 

work moving forward.

The bill that you're talking about, 

though, I think tasks that kind of work to 

Commerce. And so, you know, that's -- we can 

follow up on that I think.

CHAIR ALLEN: If I might -- Mr. 

Chair, I share Lynn's comments, Henry's 

comments, and appreciate Morgan -- his 

leadership, once again, on behalf of the 

Council.

And I do know -- correct me if I'm 

wrong, Morgan -- that one of the committees is 

specifically dedicated to economic development 

and self-reliance agendas, and which I am 
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assuming Treasury participates with Interior 

and the other appropriate -- Commerce, other 

appropriate agencies.

So, I think that the point is well 

taken, and looking forward to, you know, 

constructive recommendations that can come out, 

including maybe even statutory recommendations 

that may help strengthen the tribes, whether 

it's tax parity issues, et cetera.

So I just want to say thank you, 

Morgan. I know that you are building up your 

team over there, so you don't have to be a oneman show anymore. So I think that we can 

follow this up with regard to next steps, if 

you will.

MR. RODMAN: That sounds great, 

Chairman Allen. Thank you for those kind 

words. And, yes, we're happy to work with 

Treasurer Malerba to get this stuff further 

going.

MR. VALLABHANENI: All right. Thank 

you very much for your time.
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Next, you know, since we're at the 

Treasury Building, let's have some Treasury 

talk. I'd like to start with Anisha Steephen, 

who is going to explain a part of the Inflation 

Reduction Act that has been of -- well, this 

part especially, but a lot of it has been front 

and center on our time together.

MS. STEEPHEN: Hi, everyone. My 

name is Anisha Steephen. As I mentioned 

earlier, I sit in the Counselor for Racial 

Equity Office at Treasury. Our office is 

working very closely with the IRS and the 

Office of Tax Policy on the implementation of 

the Inflation Reduction Act.

So I am going to talk a little bit 

today about the Low-Income Communities Bonus 

Credit Program, which is also known as 48(e) in 

the Inflation Reduction Act. The Low-Income 

Communities Bonus Credit Program is a bonus 

credit designed to provide a 10 to 20 percent 

competitive boost on top of the existing 30 

percent investment tax credit, which covers the 
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cost of constructing renewable energy 

facilities.

This bonus will allow the transition 

to wind and solar energy to be more affordable 

for families and communities nationwide, 

including Indian country, that are at risk of 

being left out of the transition to a clean 

energy future.

This is a key component of our work, 

to build an economy where all people can access 

these opportunities.

In February of this year, we 

released initial -- an initial notice to 

establish the program, and we included our 

three policy goals in the notice. The three 

goals are to, first, increase the adoption of, 

and access to, renewable energy facilities in 

low income and other communities with 

environmental justice concerns.

The second is to encourage new 

market participants in the clean energy 

economy. And the third is to provide social 
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and economic benefits to people and communities 

that have been marginalized from economic 

opportunities and overburdened by environmental 

impacts.

Under the statute, the amounts of 

bonus energy capacity in this program is capped 

at 1.8 gigawatts annually, and we are currently 

in the process of designing the program to 

competitively award and distribute this 

capacity to projects across the country.

We are excited to share that we will 

be able to accept applications for that 1.8 

gigawatts of annual capacity in all four 

statutory categories included in the program 

later this year, and we anticipate being able 

to provide and make allocation awards by the 

end of the year.

So, as a reminder, for this program 

there are four statutory categories for program 

eligibility. They are energy facilities 

located in low-income communities as defined by 

the New Markets Tax Credit Program. The second 
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is energy facilities located on Indian land. 

And the third is energy facilities that are a 

part of federally regulated housing programs. 

And the fourth is energy facilities that 

deliver direct financial benefits to low-income 

households.

For 2023, we have proposed that 200 

megawatts be exclusively available for projects 

on Indian land.

So we recognize that potential 

applicants and stakeholders will need 

additional guidance to prepare applications. 

So, on May 31st, Treasury and the 

IRS released our Notice of Proposed Rulemaking 

for 48(e), the Low-Income Communities Bonus 

Credit Program. This NPRM is not comprehensive 

guidance. It covers a subset of specific 

proposals that we determined would benefit from 

notice and comment.

As you know, administering a brandnew program like this at the federal level 

effectively and efficiently requires us to make 
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several fundamental design decisions, and we 

are going through formal notice and comment to 

set these ground rules in a way that is 

transparent and fair.

Where applicable, we will use these 

program rules for future years, but we have 

built in flexibility to allow for the evolution 

of the program over time, given the evolving 

nature of the renewable energy industry.

The NPRM that was released on the 

31st includes some key proposals of things like 

what is a renewable energy facility, what is 

the threshold and value of financial benefit, 

and what does "located in" mean?

We are also including information 

about how we are considering subdividing 

capacity allocations, the potential selection 

criteria we would use to evaluate applications, 

what documents applicants would need to 

provide, and then program compliance 

requirements as well.

So, as you can tell from this list, 
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the NPRM covers administrative and substantive 

issues. We are in the middle of the 30-day 

comment period, and after which we will 

finalize the rules and release final 

comprehensive guidance for 2023.

As most of you know, and many of you 

have participated in, we received and reviewed 

hundreds of comments on this program and hosted 

dozens of meetings and roundtables, including 

one led by the Chief and a few others 

specifically on 48(e), engagement with our 

tribal and Native communities.

We welcome your input on the 

specific issues highlighted in the NPRM as 

written comments, and we will be working with 

the Treasury Tribal team to do a formal tribal 

consultation later this month.

We won't be able to fully finalize 

the rules until we have carefully considered 

all of those comments, so your input is very 

valuable to us. We -- our goal is to open the 

applications in a manner that is clear, user-
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friendly, and equitable, and we will provide 

time between the next piece of guidance and 

when applications are open, so that applicants 

have time to prepare competitive allocations --

or applications.

So thank you for your time, and I'm 

happy to answer any questions that there might 

be.

MR. VALLABHANENI: Mr. Chairman?

CHAIR ALLEN: Thank you, Chair. 

Yeah. There is a lot of buckets of money in the 

IRA --

MS. STEEPHEN: Yes.

CHAIR ALLEN: -- legislation. And, 

you know, in the bipartisan infrastructure 

bill, one of the things that frustrated us was 

that there was not tribal set aside. And we 

end up in a situation where we are competing 

against entities that made it very difficult 

for us to assess those monies --

MS. STEEPHEN: Yeah.

CHAIR ALLEN: -- for the 
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infrastructure needs that we had. IRA does 

have Indian language, but it's different from 

bucket to bucket, if you will --

MS. STEEPHEN: Yeah.

CHAIR ALLEN: So one of the things I 

think that tribes would be seeking in support 

is that there is clear commitment to a 

meaningful component of those resources that 

will hit Indian country in a way that's going 

to make it meaningful.

So I just want to throw that out at 

you. You know, I'm dealing with one of the 

buckets that goes through NOAA and climate 

change monies and environmental restoration 

efforts, and we're finding ourselves competing 

there, making it very difficult for us to 

access the money.

I would say this, that one of the 

things -- yeah, and your comment about we're 

going to take all of these comments and 

recommendations under serious consideration and 

deliberation.
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It's really imperative that you've 

really got to get to move these funding 

opportunities in Indian Country. Time is of 

the essence, and there can be all kinds of 

reasons why not, and to drag that out to the 

point where it makes it very difficult for us 

to leverage it and take advantage of the 

opportunities inside of this administration. 

So I would throw that out to you.

Also noted, like on the energy 

resources, similar to the update that we got 

earlier, and one of the concerns that we would 

have is if the language is structured so that 

it has to happen -- has to happen on the tribal 

reservation. That can be problematic for many 

of our tribes, because we look at it in terms 

of our territory, in terms of best location.

And one of the things that has 

emerged in recent years is some of these 

projects are being located on sacred lands, 

which is very troubling for a lot of tribes, 

and so it's a matter of we're not opposed to 
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these energy -- alternative energy 

opportunities. It's just a matter of where and 

that -- and that we can take advantage of them 

to move that agenda forward.

So, and my tribe is a good example. 

I'm a small tribe, you know, with, you know, 

close to 2,000 acres now, but not a lot of 

great locations for energy projects. 

So, anyhow, I throw that out as just 

one example. There's many like my tribe. 

There's many larger tribes that also have 

opportunities. Cora's over here, you know, at 

Pine Ridge, you know, has great opportunities. 

And so there is those kinds of examples. And 

Rebecca, Navajo.

And, anyhow, I would just throw that 

out. It's a matter of how -- that the Treasury 

and your sister agencies collaborate to make 

sure that we're looking for ways to get to yes, 

to make it happen, and it can actually reach 

Indian country.

So those are my only comments or 
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observations as opposed to any questions.

MS. STEEPHEN: I'll just give a 

little bit of a response back. So this 

provision is one of the ones in the statute 

that does have a specific carve-out or setaside for Indian land. I would also encourage 

any -- if you look at the NPRM, to meet our 

goals we have included selection criteria 

across the various categories that also sort of 

encourages participation in this program by 

tribal governments, Native-serving 

organizations.

So we want to make sure that this 

provision is used, and used well and 

appropriately, by our tribal communities.

CHAIR ALLEN: Okay. So one more 

thing. A lot of our sister tribes have a lot 

of talent and skillset to apply and become 

successful. Many don't. Technical assistance, 

in terms of how they can work with some who 

want to pursue a project and don't quite have 

the talent or expertise in order to leverage 
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it, and so that would be an essential component 

of reaching success for those who want to move 

the agenda forward on behalf of their 

communities, but just don't have the talent to 

-- you know, to go through the application 

process, et cetera. I'm sure you understand.

MR. VALLABHANENI: Any further 

questions or comments?

CHIEF MALERBA: I just wanted to say 

thank you, Anisha.

You know, the work you're doing is 

really important and I know that you engage 

with Fatima and our Tribal team all the time. 

So, we appreciate that partnership with you.

MS. STEEPHEN: Thank you.

MR. VALLABHANENI: Okay, thank you.

Next, I'd like to ask Jim Colombe 

from the Office of Tribal and Native Affairs to 

provide some remarks.

MR. COLOMBE: Thank you, Krishna.

I am James Colombe, Policy Advisor 

at OTNA under Fatima, a member of the Rosebud 
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Sioux Tribe.

And today, I'm providing some brief 

updates in key areas involving tax and the 

impact of the step limit on Treasury SSBCI 

funds.

First, as represented at the last 

TTAC, the Tribal office has increased its focus 

on tax issues in response to Tribal leader 

requests.

As a result, we have noticed a 

series of consultations for June and July.

Today, Treasury and IRS released 

proposed guidance on two important mechanisms 

in the Inflation Reduction Act that will help 

Tribal governments, nonprofits and other 

eligible entities access clean energy tax 

credits.

These new tools, one mechanism 

called elective pay, also commonly referred to 

as direct pay, but elective pay and another one 

that allows for the transfer of credit 

significantly expand the reach of the credits.
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They are essential to achieving our 

economic and climate goals.

Through elective pay, state, local, 

and Tribal governments as well as tax exempt 

organizations will be able to fully claim clean 

energy tax credits for the first time.

Under the proposed rule, U.S. 

territories and state, local, and Tribal 

agencies and instrumentalities would also be 

eligible for elective pay.

Treasury's proposed guidance helps 

provide essential clarity for governments and 

organizations understand eligibility and how 

they can take advantage of these provisions.

Specifically, the proposed rule 

clearly spells out which entities would be 

eligible to participate, outlines the process 

and time line to claim and receive a direct 

payment or to transfer credit, addresses 

numerous other technical issues that have come 

up based on stakeholder feedback so far.

Treasury is also issuing temporary 
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regulations to establishing electronic prefiling registration process for companies and 

organizations that want to take advantage of 

elective pay or transferability.

Pre-filing registration process 

authorized by Congress and IRA will help 

prevent improper payments to fraudsters like 

criminal syndicates and provide the IRS with 

basic information to help ensure companies, 

nonprofits, states, and communities are able to 

access credits more readily after they file a 

return to claim clean energy tax credits.

We will release additional 

information about the electronic pre-filing 

registration process when it launches later 

this year.

Twelve credits eligible for elective 

pay include tax incentives such as the clean 

energy investment and production tax credit and 

the new credit for clean commercial vehicles, 

among others.

Credits can unlock substantial new 
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economic opportunities for communities to the 

creation of new businesses, high quality jobs, 

and access to capital.

Over the coming months, Treasury and 

the White House will be sharing information 

about these provisions through speaking 

engagements, webinar and more engagement on 

elective pay, including a focus on those who do 

not typically need to file taxes, for example, 

Tribal government.

As mentioned, Indian Tribal 

governments are eligible for elective pay.

Under the proposed rule, the 

definition would also include an Indian Tribal 

government subdivisions, agencies, and 

instrumentalities.

Through elective pay, Indian Tribal 

governments may be able to access an array of 

clean energy tax credits detailed in the White 

House's Tribal IRA Guidebook including, as 

Anisha was discussing, the low income community 

bonus credit under Section 48(e) that applies 
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to eligible solar and wind facilities on Indian 

lands.

Treasury and the White House will 

host two briefings on today's guidance. 

Register in advance for those briefings. 

There's one tomorrow at noon Eastern, June 15th 

and another at 3:00 p.m. Eastern on Thursday, 

June 29th.

All of this will, by the way, will 

come in a notice from the Tribal office later 

today and can be found on our consultation 

website.

We have a consultation on elective 

pay guidance on July 17th 1:00 to 4:00 p.m. 

Eastern Daylight Time and will be publishing a 

Dear Tribal Leader letter on elective pay later 

this afternoon.

Treasury will also have a 

consultation on Section 48(e) of the IRA that 

Anisha just discussed. The main highlight I'm 

emphasizing here is that the consultation is 

scheduled for June 26th from 1:00 to 4:00 p.m. 
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Eastern Time.

Lastly, on tax, we have heard Tribal 

leader requests to address the tax status with 

Tribally chartered corporations which has been 

an issue pending for over 30 years.

On behalf of the Office of Tax 

Policy, we noticed two consultations to inform 

the development of guidance to address these 

questions.

These consultations are next 

Wednesday and Thursday on June 21st and 22nd 

from 1:00 to 4:00 Eastern Time.

Turning from tax to the Fiscal 

Responsibility Act of 2023, we know Tribal 

leaders have had many questions regarding the 

impact of the rescission of the Tribal state 

small business credit initiative.

We raised Tribal leader inquiries 

internally after the passage of this Act and 

Treasury, last week, confirmed the funds 

allocated to Tribes for their main capital, 

technical assistance, and incentive funding are 
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all protected and not subject to rescissions.

We thank you all for your patience 

and allowing us to work towards the protection 

of Tribal funds.

And now, I'll hand it back to 

Krishna.

MR. VALLABHANENI: Thank you.

Do any of the TTAC members have any 

questions or comments?

CHAIR ALLEN: Well, I just --

quickly, he was raising a number of issues that 

would be helpful to get the summary of the 

remarks and opportunities that he outlined.

These are -- sometimes some of the 

questions, they have to absorb a little bit 

before we can give some constructive feedback.

So, just --

MR. COLOMBE: Absolutely, Chairman.

We've got quite a bit more detail in 

the Dear Tribal Leader letter that will come 

out. And of course, we'll be happy to work 

with you all in making through these complex 
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issues.

CHIEF MALERBA: I just wanted to say 

thank you.

And you know, I think one of -- we 

can't underestimate the importance of 

protecting the funds for SSBCI, too.

I know the Tribal team worked really 

hard and Treasury worked really hard and 

committed to making sure, you know, that the 

first premise was to do no harm during those 

debt ceiling negotiations.

And so, we're happy that we were 

able to protect those funds.

CHAIR ALLEN: Well, I'd just add, 

we're already seeing them out in the front 

lines now. In fact, I got an email this 

morning regarding distribution of those 

resources in the northwest.

So, it's very appreciated to me 

making our -- for example, getting our --

helping our CDFIs become successful.

MR. VALLABHANENI: All right, 
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thanks.

MR. COLOMBE: Thank you so much.

MR. VALLABHANENI: Okay, I'll next -

- she's not looking at me -- next, I'm going to 

turn it over to Carmen Zucker.

MS. ZUCKER: Thank you.

Carmen Zucker with the IRS Office of 

Indian Tribal Governments.

Thank you, Chairman Allen, Madam 

Treasurer and DFO Vallabhaneni.

I'm honored to be here. I'm going 

to provide some updates on our office.

I'm going to cover just three 

topics, modernization efforts, outreach and 

education, and some of the follow up items we 

had from our previous meeting.

With respect to our modernization 

efforts, we, at the IRS, continue to work on 

taxpayer digital communication.

As you all know, because of security 

reasons, we, at the IRS, are unable to 

communicate electronically via email with 
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Indian country.

So, we launched a taxpayer digital 

communication effort a few years ago. I know 

we've had some bumps kind of launching. But, 

you know, I want to thank Indian country 

because we've come a long way and a lot of our 

customers are now using it.

And so, it's a more effective, 

efficient way to communicate with our 

customers.

So, thank you, and we will continue 

with those efforts.

Next I want to talk about our 

virtual outreach and education.

We are going to continue those 

efforts. We have two events coming up, one in 

June, June 28th we have a sports wagering tax 

requirements webinar. We will talk about 730s 

and 11Cs, and the filing requirements for that.

You don't need to pre-register. 

It's -- you can go on to our website, 

irs.gov/tribes, and the link there is available 
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and it's on Microsoft Teams.

So, you know, we welcome all of you 

to attend.

We also will be having an outreach 

event in September on employment tax. And 

there will be two separate sessions. They are 

three hours each day for three days.

The workshop covers federal tax 

responsibilities for Tribes and Tribal entities 

and deals with payroll and accounts and 

employment tax information.

So, we hope you'll attend that. 

That will also be available on irs.gov/tribes 

and we'll also send out communication to Indian 

country via our listserv.

We also, you know, are fully aware 

of the green energy credits and some of the 

administration issues that will come with that. 

And we, at the IRS, my office stands ready to 

assist Indian country with respect to, you 

know, navigating the administration, perhaps 

the forms, et cetera. 
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So, we will be collaborating with 

Treasury, counsel, again, providing outreach 

trying to disseminate information via irs.gov.

So, we stand ready to assist in that 

effort.

And then, on the two follow up 

items, so in the last TTAC, there was a 

discussion with respect to some concerns with 

respect to protocol training being received by 

specialists at the beginning when they enter 

working for our office.

So, it is typical that when a 

specialist starts to work at the Office of 

Indian Tribal Governments, they attend a 

protocol session, a protocol training.

And that protocol is over a week 

long. And we cover topics such as, you know, 

the various cultures, Tribal sovereignty, 

federal Indian law to ensure that our 

specialists are working with Tribes on a 

government to government basis.

And there were some concerns that, 
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perhaps, you know, having that at their entry 

point and not having a continual education as 

they worked, you know, in the IRS, that we 

could improve those efforts.

And so, our office has, you know, we 

listened and we will be holding, at a minimum, 

yearly protocol sessions, refresher training on 

protocol.

We'll invite -- we'll continue to 

invite Tribal leaders to speak just to, you 

know, again, reaffirm our commitment to working 

with Tribes.

There was another matter of concern 

to Indian country which was the manner in which 

we've been working with Tribes to provide 

assistance and taxpayer assistance.

And, you know, as you all know, at 

our office, we've suffered a great deal from a 

lack of staffing, hiring.

And so, you know, I'm happy to say 

that we're hiring, we're hiring, we're hiring. 

And so, you know, I hope I can use a couple 
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minutes here to ask Indian country for your 

assistance.

Also, we are hiring. We are hiring 

across all sectors, you know, lawyers, 

accountants, engineers.

And so, you know, we hope that this 

increased staffing will help us to continue to 

provide excellent customer service to Indian 

country.

We've listened. We've heard. We 

understand that currently, the current model 

has been difficult and our office still remains 

committed to serving Indian country.

Again, I want to reassure Tribal 

communities, Indian country that our mission 

remains the same. 

We, in the IRS, are committed to 

ensuring that we collaborate with Tribes on a 

government to government basis and that we are 

guided by the principles of respect for Indian 

Tribal self-government and sovereignty.

And before I take questions, I 
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wanted to mention that I'm pleased to announce 

that the head of our office of TEG Division 

Council, Mark Hulse is here to my left.

And Mark, and you know, I want to 

thank him and his team, and in particular, 

Casey Lothamer for answering my call at 1:00 

a.m. when I've needed it.

So, he's -- his staff keeps me out 

of trouble. So, thank you, Mark.

And with that, I'll take any 

questions.

CHAIR ALLEN: 1:00 a.m., okay, 

that's that 24/7. That -- a real gold star for 

you, I tell you right now, I'm impressed.

So, I guess a couple thoughts I 

have, how do you gather -- and what -- how do 

you decide what materials you use that captures 

who Indian country is in terms of educating 

your staff and so forth? So, that's the first 

question I have.

So, where do you -- who do you lean 

on to make sure that your staff and those you 
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work with fully understand Indian country?

I know it's kind of a broad 

question, but as you well know, we are a 

complex set of governments and communities.

MS. ZUCKER: Thank you for the 

question.

So, when we set up some years back, 

our office worked with Indian country to 

develop training materials that would cover 

areas such as federal Indian law, touch on 

topics such as culture, customs, diversity.

There are 574 federally recognized 

Tribes and we recognize that we can't cover 

each one given each is unique.

But we regularly invite our Tribal 

leaders to come in and to speak. And we 

regularly update these materials.

We've had our IRSAC member also 

review these materials recently.

So, we do keep refreshing our 

protocol training.

CHAIR ALLEN: Well, I appreciate 
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that.

And just when -- just one 

encouragement, if I can put it that way, NCAI 

and NAFOA are two organizations that spend a 

lot of energy helping Indian country in many 

capacities.

But when it comes to Treasury and 

IRS matters, they've got some great leaders 

over there and that can be very helpful.

And so, I just -- I want to make 

sure that you're communicating with the 

leadership over there, both the Tribal 

leadership as well as the staff leadership as 

well.

Let me circle back to your inquiry 

about trying to fill slots.

So, you know, typically, the federal 

system is what it is and it's -- if we're 

trying to get Indians, you know, in key 

positions or applying, they can -- we can only 

encourage them if they -- if it gets out there 

in our sources.
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You know, reach out into Indian 

country.

And NAFOA is definitely one of them, 

I can tell you that, because I see regular 

updates from them regarding the key positions 

that affect Indian country.

And I can -- personally, I 

appreciate the federal government reaching out 

to Indian country to try to fill slots.

So, part of my question is, one, 

that we probably need to try to collaborate to 

help you fill slots.

The federal government is no 

different than the rest of the world, quite 

frankly, trying to get people back to work as a 

result of the pandemic. And we're experiencing 

it everywhere we go.

There seems to be a new kind of, I 

don't know, culture out there that is not as 

highly interested in working or not. And I 

don't want to get caught up in that social 

dynamics or psychological dynamics of it.
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But is part of your options 

teleworking options for candidates?

MS. ZUCKER: Yes, we have -- after -

- in the past, it's been after a year in 

service. Our employees can work remotely from 

home and are required to go into the office 

twice a pay period. So, that's two days in two 

weeks.

That's currently the requirement.

So, we do offer a flexible 

workplace, including telework. It's a great 

place to work, Chairman Allen.

CHAIR ALLEN: Okay, well, that's 

helpful.

And I have to admit, you know, I 

know we're proud of the fact that we have a lot 

of young, talented Indians, men and women 

alike, who want to work, but often, they don't 

want to move from where they live.

And so, many of us as Tribal 

leaders, we really want more of our people to 

understand and work within the system, the
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federal system, or even the state system, for 

that matter.

But we would like to be able to get 

more of our people engaged to have a better 

understanding of how the federal government 

works, including Treasury.

So, that's why I was just advocating 

different techniques to get that message out 

where these opportunities are like in your 

office.

So, thank you.

MS. ZUCKER: Thank you, Chairman 

Allen.

MR. VALLABHANENI: Ms. Swift?

MEMBER SWIFT: So, I just wanted to 

thank Carmen for her dedication and leadership.

I know that, in many respects, it's 

very difficult being short staffed and also 

doing a job that, you know, frankly, people 

don't always welcome your presence. I 

understand that in my role within finance.

But her leadership has really been 
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exemplary, particular in dealing with Tribes.

As that of her predecessors, Telly 

Meier and Christie Jacobs.

And I just wanted to particularly 

call them out because I know there's been many 

times where we've had questions, looking for 

some guidance, and they've always been, you 

know, at the ready.

So, I wanted to just thank you, 

Carmen.

MS. ZUCKER: Thank you, Ms. Swift, 

appreciate your comments.

VICE CHAIR EDENFIELD: Chairman 

Allen, this is Sharon. I just have a comment 

to make.

I really appreciate the training 

that you're doing with your staff. And I would 

hope other federal partners would be doing the 

same.

I know, in the past, our biggest 

issue with fed reps that come in and review the 

Tribe is, any cultural type activities.
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Because we've had them tell us it's 

disallowed and they consider it entertainment. 

And so, we had to let them know that we were 

very insulted by those remarks.

And one agency actually submitted an 

official apology to it.

But it would be good if other 

federal partners did the same thing. Because 

that's a big one, is the cultural of the 

different Tribes and we're very sensitive to 

it.

So, thank you for that.

MR. VALLABHANENI: Vice President 

Micklin?

MEMBER MICKLIN: Thank you.

I, as well, wish to thank Carmen for 

the assistance that she has provided, she 

personally and her staff.

But that's -- it's not everyone that 

-- and I've worked with Christie Jacobs before 

and Telly Meier, now you in your role, not 

everyone in Indian country has that 
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acquaintance with the ITG offices.

And the issues I found, while there 

are some concerns with the consistency of ITG 

training, it's not really the ITG, it's the 

need for ITG staff to inform other service 

representatives in the conduct of their duties 

in engaging with individual Tribal members or 

Tribal organizations or Tribes themselves.

And the process with notices and 

phone numbers on notices, not necessarily 

comporting with the notice numbers and the 

officials having -- that you do reach, to 

resolve issues, having little to no 

acquaintance with federal Indian policy of ITG 

policy.

So, given the rescissions from the 

bill that accomplished the debt ceiling

increase, what is your strategy for having ITG 

interaction with the rest of the service, or at 

least to provide an opportunity for them to 

inform themselves of what -- how to treat 

Indian issues within the service?
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It's really an intra-service issue 

that I'm concerned about and am wondering what 

your strategy is to further the outreach of ITG 

to help resolve these issues and to let other 

service representatives know that they -- their 

actions should be consistent with service 

policy for Tribes and Indian affairs?

And I'm wondering if the reduction 

in funding for the service will have an impact 

on your plan to accomplish this purpose?

So, thank you.

MS. ZUCKER: Thank you, Vice 

President Micklin.

As you all know, the Office of 

Indian Tribal Governments is the point of 

contact for Tribes within the IRS.

We have internal procedures that 

provide how the IRS interacts with Indian 

country, and that is, you know, throughout 

through our office.

So, I am hopeful that the change in 

the funding will not have an impact on our 
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hiring efforts. We hope to be able to, again, 

continue to hire and staff up in a manner that 

we'd be able to provide the services needed to 

Indian country.

I hope that answers your question, 

Vice President Micklin.

MEMBER MICKLIN: Well, thank you, 

I'm not sure the rest of the service 

representatives out of ITG are fully aware or 

respectful of the -- of that policy. 

So, I'm just hoping we have a 

comprehensive strategy to address those issues 

where they are not consistent.

And there's, you know, many 

anecdotal instances where we can quote where 

there's the actions have not been consistent 

with ITG and service policy.

But thank you and I appreciate the 

challenge and look forward to working with you.

Thank you.

MS. ZUCKER: Thank you for your 

comments. I'll take a note of that.
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CHIEF MALERBA: I just have a 

suggestion and a comment, because, you know, 

obviously, employment and trying to hire up and 

keep that level of employment consistent is a 

challenge.

And there's a lot of unemployment in 

Tribal communities. And there's a lot of 

people that wouldn't be able to go anywhere to 

get the education that they would need 

necessarily to work with IRS.

So, I just wondered a long term 

strategy, would it be to work with some 

institutions of higher learning that could do 

Tele-learning if they knew exactly what kind of 

curriculum you would be looking at?

And to really engage and encourage 

some of our Tribal youth that, perhaps, 

couldn't find another way to access that 

learning.

So, I just kind of throw that out 

there as a longer term suggestion.

MS. ZUCKER: Thank you, Madam 
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Treasurer.

I mean, one of the things that we 

have currently rolled out is this repayment 

program for student loans.

CHIEF MALERBA: Thank you.

So, we'd love to highlight what 

you're trying to do and to share that with our 

Tribal citizens.

MR. VALLABHANENI: Council Member?

MEMBER WHITE HORSE: I have a 

suggestion as well.

I talked to you previously about 

making sure that our regional office was 

staffed, because it's not going to be.

And I would suggest that, since your 

program is to work with Indian Tribal 

Governments, that you have an office in each 

region to work with the actual Tribal 

governments that are there.

Because it's easier for us to drive 

to Rapid City than fly to D.C. And I'm sure 

it's easier for other Tribes to have meetings 
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within their region rather than coming all the 

way to D.C.

So, if we had regional offices in 

every region to meet with the Tribes and to 

provide the services, that would make things 

easier on the Tribes.

And I think that if you did that, 

you would have more applicants because it's 

cheaper to live in South Dakota than it is to 

live in Washington, D.C.

And we have educated people there as 

well.

MR. VALLABHANENI: Thank you.

CHAIR ALLEN: Do you have regional 

representation now?

MS. ZUCKER: In the past, and again, 

our staffing really has been significantly 

reduces, in the past, we've had presence on the 

West Coast, Southwest, Northwest, East Coast. 

So, we have had a lot of presence.

It's just recently with our staffing 

shortages that we haven't had quite as much 
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presence as we need.

CHAIR ALLEN: So, some of them have 

been pulled back because of attrition? People 

moving on or retiring or whatever?

MS. ZUCKER: Unfortunately.

MR. VALLABHANENI: Does Division 

Council want to say some words?

MR. HULSE: Oh no, I have nothing to 

add, thank you.

MR. VALLABHANENI: All right.

MR. HULSE: Thank you.

MR. VALLABHANENI: I'll next move it 

over to -- or introduce the Associate Chief 

Council in Tax Accounting, Scott Vance, for any 

remarks.

MR. VANCE: Well, thank you very 

much.

Good afternoon, everyone. I'm not 

going to steal the thunder of the GWE 

subcommittee, but I'll give you an update on 

what we've been doing.

So, since the last TTAC meeting in 
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March, we've reviewed in excess of 60 comments. 

These have been very helpful. They were in 

response to the consultation last year.

And we've been working at a high 

pace on analyzing the issues and the concerns 

that these comments have raised.

Many of them are supportive of 

TTAC's recommendations and the GWE 

subcommittee's report, including the Appendix B 

provisions. So, there's a lot of consistency 

there and these have been very valuable.

At the same time, since the March 

TTAC meeting, we've also participated in about 

six GWE subcommittee meetings. These have been 

extremely helpful and insightful.

We appreciate everyone's time and 

comments and there's actually another one 

coming up real soon.

So, as you well know, we cover a lot 

of different issues, not just the consultation 

comments, but there are separate subcommittee 

comments on the Internal Revenue Code provision 
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at issue and related issues.

So, we are very much looking forward 

to continue working on this. It's a high 

priority personally.

In fact, this morning, we're just 

going through our plan for the upcoming fiscal 

year. And this is high on my list of something 

that's important we need to get issued.

As you know, the next step after we 

complete consultation is a proposed regulation. 

So, that will be really nice, I think, to have 

a tangible product out there with the ultimate 

goal of a final regulation, of course.

But we're looking forward to the 

September meeting. I'll have something to 

update you on there.

And again, thanks for everyone's 

involvement. This has been a really great 

process.

MR. VALLABHANENI: Any members have 

any questions or comments?

CHAIR ALLEN: I'll, as Scott pointed 
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out, I'll wait for our update report which is -

- that we'll have Scott's summary.

MR. VALLABHANENI: Sure, thanks, Mr. 

Chairman.

I believe Rachel Levy may be on the 

Zoom.

(No audible response.)

MR. JACKSON: I'm sorry, did you say 

Rachel Levy on line?

MR. VALLABHANENI: Yes.

(No audible response.)

MR. JACKSON: It doesn't look like 

she --

MR. VALLABHANENI: She's not? Okay, 

that's fine.

MR. MEGOSH: Krishna?

MR. VALLABHANENI: Yes?

MR. MEGOSH: Just --

MR. VALLABHANENI: Go ahead.

MR. MEGOSH: Yes, I'll just give you 

a brief update.

So, EEE doesn't specifically have 
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any project that they -- that we're prime on 

that we're primarily responsible for.

But we do -- we have been assisting 

ITNA with regard to the GWE project.

We've also been assisting passthroughs and special industries with regard to 

the wholly owned project.

And so, we'll continue to do that. 

We are anticipating the consultation next week 

on the wholly owned project.

And that's really all we currently 

have in terms of an update.

So, thank you.

MR. VALLABHANENI: Sure.

Is there anyone else from IRS or IRS 

Office of Chief Council intend to make any 

comments or share any thoughts?

(No audible response.)

MR. JACKSON: If you're from the IRS 

and would like to make comments, if you could 

raise your hand so I know to make you a 

panelist, that would be helpful.
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MR. VALLABHANENI: Okay, okay, 

that's what I thought, but I just wanted to 

ask.

Chairman Allen, I think that's it 

for the federal updates.

I turn it over to you and I think 

whatever you would like to do.

CHAIR ALLEN: Well, before we go 

into the committee updates, Mr. Co-chair, we 

need to circle back.

We forgot to do one thing when we 

were making appointments. And what we 

overlooked was that, because we're losing our -

- both co-chairs of the Tool Taxation, both 

Jean and Rebecca, there's a vacancy.

And so, the good luck is our new 

delegate who we just appointed to the Dual 

Taxation Committee is a great candidate.

So, I would like to nominate Cora 

White Horse to be one of the co-chairs for the 

Dual Taxation.

I told you, you didn't even have to 
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leave the room and you're going to get work.

MR. VALLABHANENI: Is there a second 

for the motion?

VICE CHAIR EDENFIELD: This is 

Sharon.

I second.

MR. VALLABHANENI: Okay, thanks.

So, I think the motion is to appoint 

as a co-chair Cora White Horse for the Dual 

Taxation Subcommittee.

I'll read the roll.

Chairman Allen?

CHAIR ALLEN: Yes.

MR. VALLABHANENI: Vice Chair 

Edenfield?

VICE CHAIR EDENFIELD: Yes.

MR. VALLABHANENI: Rebecca Benally?

MEMBER BENALLY: Yes.

MR. VALLABHANENI: Will Micklin?

MEMBER MICKLIN: Yes.

MR. VALLABHANENI: Jean Swift?

MEMBER SWIFT: Yes.
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MR. VALLABHANENI: Okay, so six to 

nothing.

CHAIR ALLEN: Okay, so, that puts us 

in a position to deal with our subcommittee 

updates.

MR. VALLABHANENI: I'll take this 

time to congratulate Council Member White Horse 

on her appointment to Chair.

(Applause.)

CHIEF MALERBA: So, we do have some 

old business on the agenda from the last 

meeting, let me just run through it.

Yes, okay, so, during the last TTAC, 

it was requested that we updated always, you 

know, as part of our agenda, we update old 

business.

And so, we've reviewed the key asks 

from the prior TTAC and we wanted to share some 

updates.

The Pension Subcommittee motion from 

the last meeting that TTAC adopted provided for 

the following, adoption of a draft Tribal 
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Pension Subcommittee report and publication on 

the Treasury website with solicitation of 

Tribal input.

Number two, support for negotiation 

of administrative moratorium against 

enforcement of non-governmental rules against 

Tribal plans pending guidance under the Pension 

Protection Act of 2006 and legislative efforts 

for equal government status, including the 

elimination of the essential governmental 

functions and commercial activity tests.

And three, request for Treasury to 

coordinate the administrative moratorium with 

Labor to ensure consistency and meaningful 

consultation.

So, regarding the first ask of the 

motion, the Office of the Tribal and Native 

Affairs will coordinate with the Pension 

Subcommittee to hold a Tribal consultation to 

receive feedback on the subcommittee's plan in 

August.

And this is going to be conducted 
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similar to consultation on other TTAC 

subcommittee reports.

We are deferring this consultation 

until August because there are a multitude of 

tax consultations that will be occurring in 

June and July related to the Inflation 

Reduction Act and we want to make sure that 

people have time to kind of catch their breath 

before they go into the next round of 

consultations.

Regarding the second and third act 

in this motion, the Office of Tax Policy and 

IRS will have a work session with the Pension 

Subcommittee, similar to what the GWE 

Subcommittee has been doing, to better 

understand the request for a moratorium and the 

interagency engagement with the Department of 

Labor.

There was also a request to meet 

with NIGC at the last TTAC meeting. Because we 

heard requests from both TTAC and Tribes to 

engage with NIGC over the intersection of the 
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Tribal general welfare exclusion and Indian 

gaming regulatory act.

Over the past few months, we have 

commenced some interagency communications on 

this and we will be extending an invite to NIGC 

to participate in the September meeting. So, 

we'll make that formal agenda item for the 

September meeting.

So, those are -- and then, there was 

one other and that was a request to raise slot 

tax.

So, I'm going to leave that to 

Krishna to talk about since he is the Office of 

Tax Policy.

MR. VALLABHANENI: Well, I am a 

small part of the Office of Tax Policy.

So, I think, first of all, I would 

say that with regard to the reporting 

requirements with respect to slots, this is not 

a new issue.

It's an issue that has been raised 

by members of Congress, not entirely sure in 
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what context, whether it was related to Indian 

gaming or just gaming, the gaming industry in 

general.

But there's, you know, there's been 

a regulation since the 1970s that has not been 

adjusted.

I think the -- part of the issue is 

also that the statute doesn't necessarily 

really allow for an adjustment.

And I think we -- to the extent 

Congress is interested in listening to us, our 

view would be supportive of working with them 

to find a more reasonable level of -- before 

reporting, et cetera, kicks in.

Because we understand that, you 

know, levels set in the '70s that are not --

there's been a lot of change since then.

Some of it, you know, it may be 

technologically easier to comply with the --

some of the requirements today.

But it also -- we've also heard many 

times from all sorts of parties interested in 
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gaming that, you know, every time, especially -

- and I don't know what it is about slots in 

particular, but that's the one that everyone's 

interested in because, in order to make sure 

that everything's, you know, by the book, you 

basically have to take that slot machine 

offline.

So, while the staff is dealing with 

the, you know, the winner who's now just found 

out, oh, by the way, we have to tell the IRS on 

you, during that process, it's understandable 

that the slot machine is offline.

And it is also understandable that, 

you know, what may have been a lot or 

relatively a lot, you know, 40, 50 years ago is 

not really the same amount and is creating 

burdens.

So, that is something that we are 

well aware of. But our view is that it really 

is something that has to be done legislatively.

I know that most of you, I'm going 

to guess everybody who's listening to my voice 
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right now does not remember this, but a few 

years ago, as part of the 2017 tax reform bill, 

there was a provision that dealt with reporting 

by governmental entities on situations where 

some -- the way it was written in the statute 

was, if there's an amount that someone pays as 

a fine or a penalty or a settlement to a 

governmental entity, whether it's, you know, 

criminal or civil, et cetera, and it's all 

governmental entities, there was a reporting 

requirement if that amount was over, I believe, 

$600.

But that statute gave the ability to 

the Secretary to adjust it based on the 

enforcement needs of the IRS.

So, we, at that time, we also had a 

Tribal consultation and, you know, it didn't 

seem, at that point, that a lot of people were 

initially phased by that.

There were all sort of views because 

this would apply to, you know, small villages 

in the United States and the Justice 
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Department.

And there was a large variation on 

what different agencies thought was an 

appropriate level instead of $600.

And so, that process culminated with 

that -- what was initially $600 being raised to 

$50,000.

And so, basically, if a governmental 

entity is currently receiving an amount from a 

taxpayer, then -- and it's over $50,000, 

there's a reporting requirement.

And so, that's a different process 

than we have in the context of slots and other 

gaming reporting.

And so, that's why we think, to the 

extent we are able to do anything, it would 

really be with congressional approval to do 

that.

Any questions? I know there's going 

to be comments.

CHAIR ALLEN: Well, I think we 

probably need to explore it. I think that I 
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heard -- I'm just being reminded by Lynn about 

a separate matter aside from that one.

Yes, it does take -- when somebody 

hits that threshold, it takes the machine off 

and it's a cost to the operation.

And very troubling for the property 

itself.

This is not an Indian specific 

issue. This is just -- this is relative to the 

gaming industry, period.

MR. VALLABHANENI: Absolutely.

CHAIR ALLEN: And it's a cost 

because there's a lot of paperwork to it.

I've never been fortunate to have to 

have that problem. But I heard enough about 

it.

MR. VALLABHANENI: Yes.

CHAIR ALLEN: That it's a problem.

We have a casino and so, it's more 

of a problem for our managers.

But yes, that's what I understand is 

you're looking for statutory authority rather 
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than secretarial authority to modify --

MR. VALLABHANENI: Well, yes, I 

mean, either Congress changes it themselves or, 

you know, writes down in statute that go 

examine the issue, Madam Secretary, and figure 

out what the appropriate level in 2023 is.

CHAIR ALLEN: Okay, okay.

The other issue with regard to NIGC, 

you know, meddling into, you know, Tribal 

general welfare programs relative to the RAP 

program, that is a bit troubling whether or not 

it's actually within their authority.

But it demands the attention of the 

discussion between both entities, Treasury, 

IRS, and NIGC.

And I guarantee you, the Tribes want 

to be in that conversation.

We do know, I will say that, as we 

get into the general welfare report, we do know 

that a lot of Tribes, because we addressed the 

RAP criteria against the backdrop of what is 

authorized to be in general welfare benefits, 
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and it's not their call.

So, that's one of the things that 

we're going to have a conversation about.

RAP just basically says, how will 

you distribute any excess revenues given that 

you meet these certain criteria.

So, but I think that that'd be 

important for their commissioners to sit down 

with Treasury and IRS to make sure that we have 

a meeting of minds about what is driving that 

action.

So, did I hear that their request 

was that bring them into the September meeting 

is that what you said?

MEMBER MALERBA: Yes.

CHAIR ALLEN: Okay.

I really support that. I heard 

about it and then, just reminded me about it.

And to avoid causing a lot of 

frustration by Tribal leaders, it's important 

to try to address it before it gets out of 

control.
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VICE CHAIR EDENFIELD: Chairman 

Allen, this is Sharon.

The only comment I want to make is, 

it is troubling that NIGC's coming in and doing 

that when we don't even have an approved policy 

yet. We're still going through that process.

So, for another agency to be making 

that determination is quite troubling for 

Indian country.

MR. VALLABHANENI: Vice President 

Micklin?

MEMBER MICKLIN: Thank you.

I think Chairman Allen has all the 

points covered. I just wanted to add that the 

reporting threshold for the 1099s is 

significant.

I think you'll find that Tribal 

casinos are among the largest issuers of 1099s, 

anywhere from the hundreds to thousands upon 

thousands a year. And that's a significant 

administrative burden for a de minimis benefit.

So, looking at that threshold, 
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however is possible, whether it's 

administrative or whether a recommendation to 

Congress for appropriate legislation, but 

issuing tens of thousands of 1099s for one or a 

couple of facilities is -- it's just not 

helpful.

Thank you.

MR. VALLABHANENI: Appreciate that 

comment.

Ms. Swift, did you have anything to 

share?

MEMBER SWIFT: Yes, I just wanted, 

for the record, is to agree with both Council 

Micklin and Sharon Edenfield's comments that, 

you know, this is disappointing and we -- this 

is -- it's administratively burdensome, so it 

would be nice to have some reconsideration of 

the issue.

MR. VALLABHANENI: Understood.

Thanks.

CHAIR ALLEN: Okay, does that cover 

the old business?
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All right, and we -- there will be 

follow up with regard to those matters.

Okay, so, let's then move on to our 

TTAC subcommittee updates.

I know on the agenda, it says GWE 

first, but we're going to go alphabetically, so 

I'm going to call on Rebecca for the update 

from the Dual Taxation Subcommittee.

MEMBER BENALLY: Thank you, Chairman 

Allen.

Dual Taxation Subcommittee, as 

you've all heard, both co-chairs are moving on, 

outgoing and would like to welcome the incoming 

TTAC Member Cora White Horse and her technical 

advisor, Xavier Barraza. And so, welcome to 

the subcommittee.

It is not a boring topic. You will 

be up at 1:00 a.m. So, Xavier, be expecting 

those calls.

Thus far, there have been 

recommendations that have been made and 

proposals released.
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And so, because of all the 

interruptions like the pandemic and then, 

ingoing, outgoing TTAC members, there have been 

a consultation.

But it's very important to gather 

comments, provide feedback, and including 

Indian country as much as we can every step of 

the way.

Because the Indian country feedback 

and comments are very important to us.

And so, while we prioritize and 

determine which process, whether it's 

legislative or administrative process or a fix 

that needs to apply.

So, thus far, with help of now 

Treasure Chief Lynn Malerba, she's done 

extensive work with the Dual Taxation and Tax 

Parity. I'd just like to thank her very much 

and for all the subcommittee members that have 

been involved.

And so, with that, I'd like to turn 

some time over to Jean to see if she has any 
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updates.

MEMBER SWIFT: Thank you, Rebecca.

First, I'd like to say, it's been a 

pleasure serving as a co-chair with you on this 

important initiative, Dual Taxation.

And also, wanted to thank all those 

who submitted comments to the re-consultation 

that we held just a few months ago.

And finally, to thank Treasury for 

kind of assisting us in compiling a lot of 

those comments that we can include them as an 

addendum to a report that was previously 

issued, kind of refreshing the content and 

information.

So, we look forward to the continued 

good work. And as I mentioned previously, I 

will remain on the Dual Taxation Subcommittee.

So, thank you.

MEMBER BENALLY: And one last 

comment, Chairman Allen, while it may seem 

slow, we just wanted to make sure and reiterate 

the importance of Indian country feedback and 
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comments.

So, it may seem slow, but that's 

important to us. So, it's a give and take 

almost, we provide the information, some 

proposed reports, and so, and then, we value 

the process of getting and gathering feedback 

in return.

So, thank you.

CHAIR ALLEN: Does that conclude 

your report, Rebecca?

MEMBER BENALLY: Yes.

CHAIR ALLEN: So, thank you.

This is a very important topic to 

address. There is a subcommittee for NCAI, 

Henry Cagey is here. He's one of the co-chairs 

along with two other of our colleagues.

And then, it's a topic that's 

discussed extensively with NAFOA with regard 

to, you know, it's meaningfulness to Tribes as 

a legitimate revenue source.

So, everybody's well aware that 

we've been pursuing legislative remedies and 
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clarifications about our authority and 

jurisdiction.

And so, it's a topic that we want to 

continue to keep on the front burner, if I can 

put it that way.

And I just wanted to express my 

appreciation for you and Jean that you've been 

leading that charge and picking up, you know, 

where Lynn Malerba left off, quite frankly. 

So, thank you for that.

Any other questions for anybody? 

Anybody online? Questions for either Rebecca 

or Jean?

(No audible response.)

CHAIR ALLEN: Okay, if not, then, 

we're going to move on.

I'll lead off on the general welfare 

exclusion update and then, Sharon can help me 

out here.

So, as Scott already pointed out in 

his update, we have had numerous meetings where 

he and Lisa and a number of others have been 
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online with members of our subcommittee and 

others who can -- who wanted to participate, 

exploring what we meant by our interpretation 

of what the regulations -- how they should read 

and how they should be interpreted.

So, we -- oh, I can't remember what 

Scott said, but six or seven, I've lost track 

of how many meetings we've actually had.

They take a while. They've been in 

basically two hour increments. And they take a 

while to talk through it.

It was noted earlier that, I think 

Sharon brought it up, the importance of 

understanding how lavish and extravagant, two 

words is buried inside the law that can be a 

lightning rod, if I can't put it a better way.

And so, how do we interpret that?

So, there's lots of details in it --

in the proposed regulations that we want to try 

to address every aspect of what we think will 

be under the umbrella of the Tribal benefit 

exclusions.
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And it was challenging. It's 

challenging for us as Tribal leaders and our 

attorneys who helped us shape it out, trying to 

think of every angle possible, everything from 

cultural things to domestic responsibilities to 

our Tribal citizens and, you know, relationship 

with the things like the IGRA RAP plans and so 

forth.

So, I think that we've been, you 

know, Lisa and Scott and the other have been 

asking questions, exploratory, clarifying 

questions which has been very helpful in us 

talking through it.

Here's what we think that means, 

here's what we think the intent is.

I will share that, from the Tribal 

perspective, we continue to underscore the 

importance of having -- that the IRS has, and 

its agents, will have deference towards the 

authority and the discretion of the Tribes and 

how unique it will be from east to west and 

north to south in Indian country, all the 
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differing Tribal values and locations and cost 

of living and so forth, all those matters.

I think it's been constructive. As 

Scott pointed out, we have another one coming 

up here shortly, I lost track of time when it's 

happening, but it has been very constructive.

So, from the Tribal perspective, we 

know, at a certain point, that they'll have to 

say, okay, we think we get where you're coming 

from, Tribes. And they're going to draft 

something up.

Our ask, quite frankly, has been 

that before anything is published, that we have 

another conversation to make sure that whatever 

is published for Tribal comment will be fairly 

well vetted, if you will.

Because we'll be going out, you 

know, in terms of front lines, communicating 

with the Tribes in all of our different forms, 

both nationally and regionally, to make sure 

that we advise them, as we can, on comments 

that they should take into consideration 
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relative to the proposed regs.

And then, we've also -- we've 

continued to share with everybody, once we're 

done with this, once regulations are published, 

then we quickly will move into the training 

schedule, of which that I don't know what the 

federal team has been thinking about with 

regard to how would we schedule and design that 

training session for the literally countless 

IRS agents.

I'll stop there.

Sharon, do you want to add anything 

to it before I turn to our federal 

counterparts?

VICE CHAIR EDENFIELD: The only 

thing I wanted to add is with all the comments 

it was a very nice process that we went through 

and I want to thank all the federal staff and 

Fatima for getting us all together.

We went through every single comment 

and then started on the policy itself section 

by section by section. That's what has taken 
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so long. So we're almost to the end of it. So 

hopefully we'll have a product that they will 

review and, and like Ron said, bring back to us 

before a final is issued. So thank you.

CHAIR ALLEN: Yes, the only other 

thing is that we mentioned earlier there's been 

a separate set of conversations with the Social 

Security Administration and SSI payments and 

those matters. We have taken the lead under 

our committee to engage with them and their 

commissioner and senior staff people. So 

that's been a very constructive effort as well. 

We think we're making good progress.

Outside of that I don't know if you 

guys got -- or, Lisa, other comments that we're 

missing about this -- the efforts of our 

subcommittee?

MR. VANCE: Well, thank you, 

Chairman Allen. I know it's been a very I 

think collaborative and productive process. 

It's a fairly short Internal Revenue Code 

section we're dealing with, but there -- as you 
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pointed out, there are lots of definitional 

issues in there and we want to make sure we get 

it right. So this process of consultation 

we've gone through has been very helpful. 

I agree with your sense that before 

we publish anything we ought to have one last 

go-through with the team. And that is not the 

last bite at the apple. Of course there may be 

changes between the proposed regs and the final 

regs. Those proposed regs are open for public 

comment, which I imagine will be largely TTAC 

membership and Tribes. Of course anyone in the 

public can comment if they so choose. 

But you've mentioned a couple of the 

specific issues: What does fall under the 

umbrella, what is lavish and extravagant, that 

type of thing? We want to make sure we flesh 

those out. And I think we're in a good 

position to in the near term get something out 

there in tangible form. So thank you for 

everyone's efforts on that.

CHAIR ALLEN: Yes, I would note that 
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part of our conversations is that it's going to 

be important for Tribes and their GWE codes 

that describe what is under the Tribal benefit 

exclusion category. That is fairly well 

designed and articulated because the agents 

will reference it in terms of any benefits that 

are being provided.

To say the obvious, I know we're all 

anxious to get this going; the agency is, we 

are, and from the Tribal perspective, but like 

Scott said, we're trying to do it right. We 

want to get the best -- we may end up editing 

it later, but right now when we get a final 

draft we want to get as close to 100 percent 

right as we can. So we're working hard about 

that.

So I want to thank everybody.

Any other comments? Lisa?

MS. MOJIRI-AZAD: If I could just 

add to that. First on behalf of my IRS 

colleagues and chief counsel we wanted to thank 

the committee for putting aside so much time to 
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meet with us. The meetings have been extremely 

helpful. And as Sharon pointed out, I know we 

started out slow, we went through every single 

comment, but we thought that was important to 

flush out with the committee how we interpreted 

certain comments that were made to us and how 

you would look at the same type of statements. 

So that has just been extremely helpful. 

The examples that we have talked 

about during your meetings is another thing 

that we have really found helpful because as 

you've mentioned I mean there's over 500 

Tribes. We don't have a sense of how every 

Tribe operates. And so the input has just been 

extremely helpful.

And just one last point: Please 

recall it's lavish or extravagant, not lavish 

and extravagant. And we're looking forward to 

our meeting. I think it's next Tuesday we're 

going to be picking up. And I know there are 

some issues that you've asked us to consider 

and get back to the committee on and there are 
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some on your end. And we look forward to 

continuing. Thank you.

CHAIR ALLEN: Yes, I appreciate that 

correction. And I also appreciate you always 

agree with us.

(Laughter.)

CHAIR ALLEN: Oh, that's okay. 

Joking aside here. 

All right. That's it. Any 

questions from anybody on our work? So we're 

chipping away at as best I can express it.

MR. VALLABHANENI: Mr. Chairman, I 

got one question.

CHAIR ALLEN: Yes?

MR. VALLABHANENI: A few minutes ago 

you commented in response to Scott Vance or 

Lisa that it's important that we get it right. 

And then you looked at me. And I wanted to 

know what that was about.

(Laughter.)

MR. VALLABHANENI: I'm kidding.

CHAIR ALLEN: Well, I just -- I 
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wanted to make sure that we don't have any 

bumps in the road.

(Laughter.)

MR. VALLABHANENI: Super smooth road 

on this side, so --

(Laughter.)

CHAIR ALLEN: All right. Don't take 

it personal now. Just joking back, Krishna.

Okay. So we'll move onto the Tribal 

pensions. Will, are you going to take the 

lead?

MEMBER MICKLIN: Yes, I am. Thank 

you, Mr. Chairman. I'll just note it's hard to 

be right with Chairman Allen.

So I'd like to thank Stephanie 

Williams for her work as co-chair of the 

Pensions Committee. This report is 

substantially a report of her incredible 

efforts along with the Tribal advisors. I 

mentioned them in my opening statement and did 

omit Telly Meier, who's also providing 

tremendous assistance to the Pension 
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Subcommittee.

So the subcommittee goal remains the 

pursuit of equal government status for Tribal 

governments, the same as states, cities, and 

local government. Since the Pension Protection 

Act passed in 2006 Tribal governments have not 

been afforded equal government status under 

ERISA and belated provisions of the Internal 

Revenue Code. The Pension Committee is working 

on both administrative solutions and 

legislative proposals to suggest solutions.

At the last meeting of TTAC in March 

the full TTAC approved the Tribal Pension 

Subcommittee Report that called for this goal 

of equal government status and administrative 

relief. The next steps are that the report in 

its final form will be posted on the website. 

I checked the website and I believe the 2020 

version is still posted. 

We are going to meet with Treasury 

staff to discuss the report and develop plans 

for consultation. We look forward to that to 
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schedule that consultation when available. We 

understand the number of consultations that are 

ongoing and look for the soonest available 

slot. And the subcommittee hopes to provide 

updates to Tribal leaders at appropriate 

events, NAFOA, NCAI and ATNI, and other 

meetings to secure input from leadership and 

help prime the consultation process.

As to the legislative fix we 

continue to work with the -- on legislative 

proposal to secure our goal of equal government 

status under ERISA and the Internal Revenue 

Code. There are several tax parity proposals 

now under consideration. We've worked with 

Congresswoman Gwen Moore's office and we are 

working with members of the House Ways and 

Means Committee and staff on final language for 

a bill that would eliminate the essential 

government functions test and provide Tribes 

the same governmental exemptions afforded to 

state and local governments under ERISA.

And finally, we have put forward the 
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request for an administrative moratorium to 

provide relief while regulatory and legislative 

options are explored. We want to ensure that 

Tribes are -- that their consultation is 

included as meaningful input before agency 

actions move forward. So we're hoping that 

there would be a strong Tribal voice in what is 

a Tribal government under ERISA, what the 

available exclusions are, similar to state and 

city municipal governments. 

And we are hoping -- looking forward 

to working with Treasury, the Service, and as 

well Department of Labor, although they've 

previously expressed an unwillingness to 

consult with Tribes believing that they are not 

subject in this action to EO 131375. We 

believe the updated version of the Executive 

Order on Tribal Consultation includes 

Department of Labor. 

We also refer to the regulation, 

U.S. Code, that provides for the collaboration 

between Treasury and Department of Labor on 
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issues such as this and the MLA that's included 

as -- within that agreement for collaboration. 

So we are looking forward to continuing to 

work with Treasury and now with Department of 

Labor in coordinating these joint efforts 

towards administrative and hopefully 

legislative relief. And on behalf of the 

subcommittee I thank you for the opportunity to 

report, Mr. Chair.

CHAIR ALLEN: Okay. Any questions 

for Will? Stephanie is ill so she's not able 

to contribute to Will's update. Questions by 

anybody?

(No audible response.)

CHAIR ALLEN: Online any questions?

(No audible response.)

CHAIR ALLEN: Okay. If not, then 

that wraps up our subcommittee updates. And I 

think that we move into the public comments. 

So, yes, we have a letter that comes 

from the Kickapoo Tribe and --

MR. VALLABHANENI: Yes, I --
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CHAIR ALLEN: Go ahead.

MR. VALLABHANENI: I was just going 

to mention that dated today there's a letter 

that -- from the Kickapoo Tribe in Texas that 

essentially covers the issue between the NIGC 

and the Tribal Benefit Payment that was 

discussed earlier. So we'll just include it in 

the record and essentially act on it in 

accordance with what was decided earlier. 

Unless is there a representative who'd like to 

speak on that?

CHAIR ALLEN: Excuse me. Michael?

MR. WILLIS: Good afternoon. I just 

wanted to pass (audio interference) letter.

MR. VALLABHANENI: Oh, sure. Thank 

you. Oh, we got it. Thank you so much.

MR. WILLIS: Yes, good afternoon. 

Thank you. Michael Willis on behalf of the 

Kickapoo Traditional Tribe of Texas. Thank you 

for the opportunity to discuss this issue.

The Kickapoo Tribe had raised this 

issue in the last meeting during the public 
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comment session because they are having ongoing 

concerns with the way the NIGC was reviewing 

their qualified Tribal General Welfare Program. 

It was a housing support program that was 

enacted, established, and is administered 

consistent with the Tribal General Welfare 

Exclusion Act and Section 139(e), as well as 

the Revenue Procedure 2014-35. 

And of course the Kickapoo Tribe 

also believes it is fully compliant with the 

Indian Gaming Regulatory Act and the ability to 

use net revenues for general welfare purposes 

of its members, as well as consistent with the 

NIGC's own guidance as to the use of net gaming 

revenues for general welfare purposes.

So thrilled to hear that the 

conversation has evolved and that there will be 

an opportunity to engage with the NIGC come 

September. Want to share the letter from the 

Kickapoo Tribe in the sense that there have 

been progress in some of the dialogue, but 

there's still a fundamental level of 
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misunderstanding, and the issue has not 

resolved itself for the Kickapoo Tribe either. 

The information requests have 

continued. The Tribe has responded to them 

actively in full compliance with the NIGC's 

requests with relevant and germane information 

to show it's a qualified general welfare 

program. So again thrilled that we're having 

this discussion and it's going to move forward.

Particularly wanted to call to 

everyone's attention and the GWE Subcommittee's 

outstanding report on the regulatory process 

that you all are working on that has really 

kind of tried to grapple at the question of 

distinguishing per capita payments from general 

welfare and qualified general welfare program 

payments. And I think it's really critical as 

we look at what's happened in the NIGC review 

of the Kickapoo program. 

We have what is a qualified general 

welfare program where payments are distributed 
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only to eligible recipients. Those payments 

are distributed on an equivalent basis, right, 

to -- members who qualify receive an equivalent 

payment. 

Two things have happened: The NIGC 

has raised a concern that has not seemed to 

resolve as it seems to be confused as to 

whether Tribes can use gaming revenue to fund 

general welfare programs. That's clearly 

established in the IGER (ph). It's clearly 

established in their own guidance. It's 

clearly established by the IRS and Treasury. 

That somehow has not sunken down to the folks 

who are on the ground.

But the second issue; and you all 

are looking at that for the regulations; it's 

very important, is the question of equivalent 

payment. By distributing payments to qualified 

beneficiaries on an equivalent basis NIGC has 

kind of said well isn't this per capita payment 

and thus it becomes taxable and thus it becomes 

subject to action under a revenue allocation 
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plan?

So those are the questions that are 

really ongoing. And I hope through the 

conversation you all have we can have some 

resolution with the IRS because ultimately the 

Tribes have developed these programs to meet 

vital general welfare needs. The Kickapoo's 

comes out of not only housing needs, but also 

it fits within the cultural activities of the 

Tribe and its values to continue its ceremonial 

housing activities as well. So the fact that 

the NIGC is kind of interfering or diminishing 

their capability to implement that program has 

been extraordinarily frustrating. 

So thank you all for your attention 

to it and for pursuing further dialogue and 

conversation with NIGC. That should be very 

helpful. So thank you all.

CHAIR ALLEN: Yes, thank you, 

Michael. And like Krishna noted, we're going 

to reach out to Sequoyah Simermeyer, the chair 

of the commission, and ask him to come to our 
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September meeting. I'm assuming that you're 

also sharing this with Sequoyah, but if you 

didn't, we will, and so they have time to 

review what they think is their authority, if 

you will. Fair enough? Okay.

Henry, did you have a comment on 

this particular -- I saw your hand go up.

MR. CAGEY: I can give open comment 

now?

CHAIR ALLEN: Yes.

MR. CAGEY: Well, this is exactly 

why we created the general welfare exclusion 

because of this. So I hope that the advisory 

committee can send something over to the NIGC 

folks. You need to send something to them, not 

just talk to them. This is exactly what we've 

struggled with for 15 years. The IRS was 

coming in and auditing everything. They were 

auditing our housing, our education, our 

health. Everything that we were doing with our 

dollars we were getting audited. We got 

audited four times one year. 
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So again, so this -- you guys need 

to really step up and do something to help 

those Kickapoo folks because this is why we 

created this law, because of this. So I hope 

you guys can do something and send an opinion 

over to them and have them support the Tribe's 

work they're trying to do to help their people. 

It's all about helping their people. 

So hope the tax guy can figure 

something out and get something over to the 

NIGC folks because those guys need direction 

and they need direction on how to handle the 

payments that they make to their people. So I 

hope something happens.

Mr. Chairman, I got a couple more 

comments on -- while I got open mic -- is the 

dual taxation. And I heard a little bit about 

next steps and I would recommend to our new cochairs that we can consult as far as we can go. 

We need to start figuring out some fixes on 

how we're going to look at this problem, some 

administrative issues, some legislative issues. 
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And there's a lot of court cases we have to 

kind of figure out. It's all in the report. 

Indian Country's had a lot of time 

to look at it. Last week we had probably about 

80 Tribes show up to our tax meeting. So what 

we're seeing is a lot of Tribes are interested 

in what's happening now and that's important 

that we get this work that we started with dual 

taxation on its feet and moving forward. 

Enough consultation, as I say. We want to 

create some action. And I'm still part of the 

committee I think, aren't I?

(No audible response.)

MR. CAGEY: Yes, so I hope that we 

can create some movement on showing Indian 

Country what we're going to do next. Some 

things that we can fix that are not -- they're 

not easy fixes, but fixes like the Trader 

Status Act, for example. That's one shield. 

So we need to create some shields for our 

people that we can help. 

The ones we need to help are the 
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small businesses. We have a lot of small 

businesses on the Reservation that need help, 

especially around taxation. So we want to 

begin to kind of create something that allows 

our economy to grow and that dual taxation 

report gets us there. It gets us down the 

road. 

The more we can shield our people 

from the IRS, the more people we can shield 

from the state, the more we're going to thrive. 

Because again it's that we get held back every 

time we want to do something with our 

Reservation. The state reaches in, the feds 

reach in, and we get held back. 

So I've been doing this a long time 

with taxes and again I feel that we need to do 

something with our tax policy provision with 

dual tax and actually have a plan. I keep 

asking for a plan. What's going to be the plan 

to lift us up, lift our people up in a good 

way? What's the plan? Because money is not 

going to do it. It's our sovereignty that you 
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got to lift up. And what does that look like? 

We can come up with all the regulations we 

can, but a lot of it lists what the sovereignty 

or the nation, what it can do itself. 

The more freedom we have to help our 

people the better. Personally I'd rather see 

us be tax-free on everything and allow our 

people to thrive, because again if we do the 

study that study is going to show that we're 

probably paying more taxes back to the United 

States than we're getting. So I think we 

really need to gather up our data and look at 

exactly what's been happening to us since we've 

been paying taxes. 

So again we really need to 

understand that a lot of our people across the 

country are paying taxes back to the United 

States and we probably get maybe a third of 

that back. So where's the balance? Where is 

the equity for the Tribes? 

So again there's still some 

obligations that the United States has as to 
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grow our economy. And what does our economy 

look like? We can't grow our economy until you 

guys get out of the way. United States really 

has to support and find a way to grow our 

economy. And we can do that. I think you'll 

make a bit difference. But all the money in 

the world ain't going to help it if you don't 

understand our sovereignty, you don't 

understand what needs to happen through the 

treaties, the Executive Orders, all the things 

that allow us to grow. 

Those are things I'd like to see 

happen from this committee. And hopefully the 

committee can do that. I look forward to 

working with the new chairs and I'd like to see 

something happen. (Native language spoken.) 

Thank you. 

CHAIR ALLEN: Thank you, Henry.

Any other public comments? 

(No audible response.)

CHAIR ALLEN: And I forgot, please 

state your name and Tribe.
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MR. RAMSEY: Thank you, Madam 

Treasurer, Chairman Allen, and members of the 

committee. My name is Kip Ramsey III. I am an 

enrolled member of the Yakama Nation. My 

Yakama Name is Sahkaleen. I come from a Tribe 

and family of entrepreneurs. My family and I, 

we operate a number of Yakama Nation Tribal 

member-owned corporations including Cougar Den.

My comments and recommendations to 

the TTAC Committee is the development of a 

subcommittee focused on Native entrepreneurship 

that has a focus of working with Tribal members 

on significant matters related to the taxation 

of Indians and their businesses. 

Much of federal policy supporting 

Tribes is focused solely on Tribal governments 

and not individual Natives and our families who 

are also part of our Tribal economics. We ask 

for support by forming a subcommittee to assist 

us in our important work. Thank you.

CHAIR ALLEN: Thank you. 

Rob?
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MR. PORTER: Greetings, all. Thank 

you for this really robust meeting today. A 

lot of content. Robert Magali Porter. I'm a 

Seneca Nation citizen, but I'm here 

representing Lummi and a number of other 

nations that are concerned about these tax 

policy issues. 

One of the things I'd like to build 

upon is an idea raised earlier and I'm hoping 

that Member Will Micklin will have a chance to 

talk about this policy to the Administration 

Subcommittee is because we need to start 

working more towards I think interaction with 

the Office of Tax Policy. 

There's a lot about what's needed 

here that does require research, that does 

require I think advocacy. And we know that 

Treasury does that for the United States, but 

we need to be part of that discussion for 

purposes of Indian Country and Alaska Natives. 

It's something that we know that Interior has 

a day-to-day job. Commerce has a day-to-day 
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job. But who's thinking about the future and 

how do we frankly repair the damage of 

colonialism that's destroyed our land base, 

that's destroyed the ability for us to have tax 

immunity, and to restore the preservation of 

our wealth and the opportunity to expand it?

And I don't think it's going to 

happen. It's been years in the works. We're 

glad that we're here getting this far with 

Fatima and with Treasurer Malerba's leadership, 

but we need to do more. And I think we need to 

be better engaged with what's happening with 

the Office of Tax Policy generally in terms of 

making sure Native people are forward looking, 

not just recovery. So thank you for that.

CHAIR ALLEN: Thank you.

Any other public comments?

(No audible response.)

CHAIR ALLEN: Online, is there any 

public comments?

(No audible response.)

CHAIR ALLEN: I don't see any hands 
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raised.

MR. CAGEY: The last meeting you 

guys talked about the --

CHAIR ALLEN: Restate your name 

again so --

MR. CAGEY: Oh, Henry Cagey, Lummi 

Nation. The last meeting you guys talked about 

the corporations. I didn't hear any discussion 

about that.

MR. VALLABHANENI: There's a Tribal 

consultation next Tuesday and Wednesday on that 

topic. 

MR. CAGEY: Oh, okay. Okay. So 

what happens after the consultation?

MR. VALLABHANENI: I'm sorry?

MR. CAGEY: What's going to happen 

after that?

MR. VALLABHANENI: We're going to 

sit here and think about what we are -- no. 

Yes, I mean there is a, I will say -- I think 

I'm free to say this -- there's a strong desire 

to get this issue resolved quickly --
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MR. CAGEY: Yes.

MR. VALLABHANENI: -- partly due --

but -- I know the history of this topic, but I 

think partly due to what just happened today 

with the release of the guidance on the --

under the Inflation Reduction Act which deals 

with elective payments, et cetera. And I think 

there's a lot of interest based on what we've 

heard basically on the point that what exactly 

does it mean when you talk about Indian Tribal 

Government with -- or its agencies or its 

instrumentalities? Are those corporations? 

What are those? And so that's part of what 

we're sort of aiming to get some guidance out 

on.

So the Tribal consultation is not --

I wouldn't say it's the first step. We've been 

trying to do our own homework, but before we 

sort of take the leap we want to honestly hear 

I'd say specifically like what are the 

particular questions that people want answered? 
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Because I think it's -- in the 

abstract it is a little difficult without 

knowing -- I think our folks on the -- I would 

say both on the GWE Subcommittee and over in 

the IRS and Treasury here on general welfare 

read certain words and they mean different 

things. And I think there's this question 

about, okay, what is the tax treatment of 

Tribal law corporation? 

I think the question -- like we need 

a little more on what that means. Because like 

for example in an unrelated but just an 

example, if I go online and set up a Delaware 

corporation and I'm not Delaware or anything 

related to the government what does that mean? 

And so it's not exactly clear. 

I think we know what a lot of the 

question is, but we don't know all of the 

permutations. Are people talking about 

different sort of authorities? How much 

control does the governing body of a Tribe have 

over the entities? I mean I'm sure Tribes are 
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going to have different levels of desire to 

have control over certain things and does --

how does that affect whether or not an entity 

is essentially part of the Tribe or is viewed 

as separate?

So I mean these are a lot of types 

of questions that are -- it's hard to sort of 

just come up with the answers by ourselves. So 

that's really why I think it is very important 

for the consultation process. And I don't 

think it's necessarily clear that we would just 

have like whatever's happening next week, 

because this is a complicated issue.

MR. CAGEY: Do you see us as a 

sovereign when you ask that question, to issue 

our own license or corporations?

MR. VALLABHANENI: Well, so I think 

that's part of the --

MR. CAGEY: Well, you have to see us 

as a sovereign first.

MR. VALLABHANENI: Understood.

MR. CAGEY: And you have to say that 
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as a sovereign to sovereign.

MR. VALLABHANENI: Understood, but I 

think part of the question gets to who's going 

to actually -- is it the sovereign that's going 

to be the only owner in the system or not? And 

to what extent does having other parties sort 

of take away from the sovereign-ness, if that 

makes any sense.

CHAIR ALLEN: I think, Henry, what I 

was going to do under other items is ask that 

in the September meeting that we entertain the 

idea of a subcommittee with regard to not just 

tribal corporations but tribal businesses, 

because we also have LLCs, et cetera.

So I think that's what Krishna is 

getting at is, one is what's the partnership. 

And the bigger issue, if I follow it correctly, 

is the transparency of the entity that is 

established under the tribe's jurisdiction.

So I think that it would be helpful 

to have a subcommittee with some experts, you 

know, on the committee to engage with the IRS 
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and the appropriate legal counsel to discuss 

what we need to sort through to try to get to 

the decision.

So that is complex, yes --

MR. VALLABHANENI: Yeah, and I don't 

mean to say that it's complex and that's an 

excuse for like taking a whole bunch of time 

that doesn't need to be taken up. It is 

complex. And, you know, we also know that 

there's urgency. And so I think the urgency 

hopefully will win.

CHAIR ALLEN: So the bottom line is 

all Henry was asking for was yes.

MR. VALLABHANENI: The man flew out 

here. I thought I'd give him his money's 

worth.

MR. MEGOSH: Krishna, just --

CHAIR ALLEN: Okay, well --

MR. MEGOSH: -- just one 

clarification.

CHAIR ALLEN: Oh, sure.

MR. MEGOSH: I think the 
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consultations is Wednesday and Thursday --

MR. VALLABHANENI: Oh, I'm sorry --

MR. MEGOSH: -- not Tuesday and 

Wednesday.

MR. VALLABHANENI: Sorry about that.

CHIEF MALERBA: Didn't you say we're 

meeting at the GWE?

MR. VALLABHANENI: I see. Okay. 

Sorry.

CHAIR ALLEN: Is it virtual, right -

-

MR. VALLABHANENI: It's the --

you're absolutely right. It's June 21st and 

22nd. I apologize for getting the dates wrong.

CHAIR ALLEN: Okay, okay. Yeah, it 

would be an opportunity to engage. And then 

there will be follow-up from --

MR. VALLABHANENI: Absolutely.

CHAIR ALLEN: -- that point on. All 

right.

Well, I think that I -- that was the 

one item that I wanted to get under, on the 
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schedule, other items was to have that on the 

agenda so we can discuss it, which will be 

inclusive of the charge of the committee in 

terms of, you know, what is the outcome we're 

looking for to guide a final decision.

Okay. Oh, maybe I zipped right by 

it. Any other public comments? Yes.

MR. HARJO: (Native language 

spoken.) I am Zechariah Harjo, the Acting 

Secretary of the Nation from Muscogee Creek 

Nation. Thank you, Chairman Allen. Thank you, 

Treasurer Malerba.

I wanted to raise an issue that I've 

raised several time but related to tribal 

corporations. While the IRC is clear that 

tribes share in the status similar to states 

under IRC 7871, those corporations, it remains 

unclear for a lot of vendors and donors of 

tribes that under that structure that their 

donations are actually tax deductible.

And so we've worked to issue, you 

know, letters and statements. But those 
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letters and statements will be a lot more 

powerful, a lot more clear if Treasury 

themselves provided that clarification, whether 

it was on, you know, the Treasury website or a 

link that, you know, is extended from the IRC 

Code itself to provide that clarity that exists 

currently for non-tribal 501(c)(3)s.

And the other issue related to that 

is that there is so much infrastructure that 

Treasury has participated in with banking and 

other financial partners to create 

infrastructure that is very well known for 

501(c)(3)s and their grant process and the 

access to capital as well as access to just 

bank accounts in general that does not exist 

for 7871s. And I just wanted to highlight that 

lack of parity between tribal corporations that 

are not-for-profit and our counterparts at the 

501(c)(3) level.

I know that there is a process 

formally for tribes to codify their own 

501(c)(3)s, but that's not also widely known, 
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nor is that process very easily and clearly 

understood.

So I just wanted to raise both those 

issues and have that be something that the TTAC 

addresses.

CHIEF MALERBA: Can you do me a 

favor and, you know, just put your thoughts in 

writing to us so that we don't miss anything? 

I'd really appreciate that, because we want to 

make sure that, you know, we're hearing you and 

that we're addressing it. So I appreciate 

that.

CHAIR ALLEN: Exactly.

CHIEF MALERBA: And thank you for 

being here.

CHAIR ALLEN: Yep.

MR. HARJO: Thank you. We're still 

working on those comments, but we'll get them 

to you.

CHAIR ALLEN: Thank you.

MR. VALLABHANENI: Can I ask one

quick clarification? Is it the case that 
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what's being described is tribal entities that 

operate on a non-profit basis but haven't 

sought like recognition from the IRS as a 501, 

or they have?

MR. HARJO: Yes. So, for instance, 

the Nation has several instrumentalities like a 

Veterans Affairs Office that uses the Nation's 

7871 status because they are a direct 

government office of us. But when they receive 

donations or, you know, there are potential 

donors to them, you know, it's unclear that 

their donations or givings are actually tax 

deductible.

So my office drafted a letter citing 

the IRC. But, you know, frankly that shouldn't 

be something that we should have to do. I 

mean, in my opinion, I think it's Treasury's 

responsibility to make it clear to every

finance and public, you know, every CPA and 

everyone that files those returns for their 

clients for it to be easily findable, you know, 

through their means.
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And really the letter that, you 

know, I drafted just points them directly to 

the IRC where they can find that language 

themselves and then, you know, from there 

potentially get with Treasury if they're 

confused on how to actually file those returns 

and those deductions and credits.

MR. VALLABHANENI: I think perhaps 

with the, you know, the break in the loop that 

you just mentioned is it may not be clear to 

whoever is doing the donating that what they 

are looking at is the same thing as what that 

would be if a state did it.

MR. HARJO: Sure.

MR. VALLABHANENI: And so, even if 

we put something out without knowing like the 

details around what's going on, I'm not sure we 

can actually adequately address that globally, 

because it's possible that each tribal 

government is going to set itself up very 

differently.

So, I mean, if there are particular, 
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you know, structural ways that works or it 

doesn't work for that agency, that might be 

helpful in the comments.

MR. HARJO: Okay.

CHAIR ALLEN: Yeah, that would be 

very helpful. Thank you.

Any other comments? Anything 

online, Josh?

MR. JACKSON: Yeah, Councilor Tina 

Abrams from the Seneca Nation. Your line has 

been unmuted, Councilor.

MS. NABEY: (Native language 

spoken.) This is Councilor Lisa Nabey. 

Councilor Abrams had to leave. So I'll be 

making the comments today.

On behalf of the Seneca Nation, 

thank you for the opportunity to provide 

remarks today. Congratulations to the Oglala 

Councilwoman, Cora White Horse, on your 

appointment to the TTAC. We commend the 

Treasury for selecting a Native Nation leader. 

And we look forward to working with you as an 
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ally for Native Nations in your new role.

Good afternoon to Treasurer Chief 

Lynn Malerba and Ron Allen and TTAC committee 

members.

The Seneca Nation is glad that the 

Treasury is hosting additional consultation on 

tribally chartered corporations. We look 

forward to participating in the upcoming 

consultation process next week on Wednesday and 

Thursday. And we will be providing comments.

We participated in 2019 consultation 

process and will reiterate the views we shared 

then, that the IRS needs to issue guidance to 

clarify that corporations that are wholly owned 

by a Native Nation government and chartered 

under Native Nation laws are not taxable under 

federal law across the board.

The IRS should not use an integral 

part balancing test because these tests defy 

Native Nation's sovereignty and Native Nation's 

authority to recognize their own corporations. 

Such balancing tests are difficult to apply 
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and would not be uniformly applied for all 

tribally chartered corporations.

Although Native Nations have engaged 

in consultation for years and requested 

guidance, we still have not heard from the 

federal government on what its views are on the 

issue. In order to engage in meaningful 

consultation, we ask that the IRS and Treasury 

provide Native Nations with a sense of where 

it's leaning, what its views as, what it views 

as the difficult issues, and that the IRS issue 

direct guidance for comments before adopting 

formal policies or rules that apply to Native 

governments.

As mentioned earlier, it's important 

that the IRS agents understand the history 

between Native Nations and the federal 

government, its obligations, and the 

implications of its guidance decisions.

We ask that the TTAC work with the 

IRS officials and ITG so that the agents who 

are making decisions about these very important 
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policies understand Native Nations. And they 

need to respect the sovereignty and unique 

treaties of each Native Nation.

We also ask that the Treasury, IRS, 

and ITG make joint visits to each region in 

Indian Country to learn about how Indian 

Country works on the ground. The IRS and ITG 

only tend to make visits to Indian Country 

under tense and negative circumstances. And it 

would be good for this administration to 

prioritize visiting Indian Country regions for 

learning opportunities, as other agencies and 

departments have. This is meaningful.

We also ask again that the TTAC 

subcommittees provide information to Native 

Nation leaders in the form of a Dear Tribal 

letter on when its meetings will be held, with 

sufficient notice to Native Nations as to when 

the meetings will occur so that we can 

participate.

We would also like to know who the 

current members and staff are on each 
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subcommittee so that Native Nation leaders can 

reach out to the designated points of contacts. 

Seneca Nation leaders would like to get 

involved in TTAC's current work. And we need 

information on when the subcommittee meetings 

occur so that we can participate.

In conclusion, we appreciate the 

agency's consultation efforts and your 

willingness to meet with Native Nations to 

engage with us regarding our concerns.

Again, thank you for this 

opportunity and time to speak. (Native 

language spoken.)

CHAIR ALLEN: Okay. Thank you. And 

hang on. They're open meetings.

CHIEF MALERBA: If the subcommittees 

are open meetings, I don't know that they have 

them. If they are, we could publish them on 

the Treasury, our tribal website.

CHAIR ALLEN: I do not remember. 

Are they or not?

CHIEF MALERBA: Well, we appreciate 
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you asking the question. I'm going to have to 

go back to the work plans for the 

subcommittees, and we'll discuss that request, 

because I know that there are many nations that 

have been very engaged in these issues. And 

Seneca is definitely one of them. And I know 

I've met with you personally and appreciate 

your comments. So I would say sit tight. Let 

us, you know, kind of answer that question for 

you.

CHAIR ALLEN: Yeah, it's Ron. I 

agree. Typically there's only a small group of 

us who are willing to carve out time. And we 

appreciate tribal leaders like you who want to 

engage with us. So we will. We will -- I will 

circle back with Lynn and Krishna on were they 

intended to be open or closed.

And in my mind, they would tend to 

be open, and primarily because we don't expect 

a lot of people to show up. It's just those 

who are really trying to help make a 

difference.
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So we'll have to circle back to you 

on that question. We do have your contact 

information. So --

MS. NABEY: I'd appreciate the 

follow-up.

CHAIR ALLEN: Yeah. And besides 

that, you know how to track me down.

MS. NABEY: Yes, we do.

CHAIR ALLEN: Yeah. Okay. Josh, is 

there others online?

MR. JACKSON: If you're online and 

would like to make comments, please raise your 

hand so I know to unmute you and give you the 

permissions to speak. Right now we don't have 

any other hands raised.

We have one. This is Sornha Li. 

Sornha, you're, you've been unmuted.

MS. LI: Good afternoon. I'm hoping 

I'm in the right place. Department of Interior 

mentioned that there was a Dear Tribal Leader 

letter about consultation on June 30th, I'm 

sorry, June 20th. I was hoping to get clarity 
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on where we could find that Dear Tribal Leader 

letter.

CHIEF MALERBA: Sornha, did you say 

the Department of Interior?

MS. LI: Yes, ma'am. It was the, I 

think it was Wege (ph) who had mentioned it, so 

BIA basically.

CHIEF MALERBA: Oh, I think he 

mentioned the GWE subcommittee meeting with the 

IRS. I think that's what that was.

MS. LI: Oh, okay. Thank you so 

much for that clarity. I just know he was 

talking about the data collection and wanting, 

and I understood that he said there was a Dear 

Tribal Leader letter about the data collection. 

And so --

CHIEF MALERBA: I think --

MS. LI: -- I had not --

CHIEF MALERBA: I do think there may 

be something coming. I think he mentioned that 

there is going to be a consultation on data 

collection. But I would go back to the BIA 
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website probably for that one.

MS. LI: Okay. Thank you so much 

for that clarity --

CHAIR ALLEN: She's referencing 

Wizi's comments.

CHIEF MALERBA: Yes, yes.

CHAIR ALLEN: There is a letter out 

on consultation on that topic. It recently 

came out. I'm certain I just saw it. And I 

don't know the date of it. But we should be 

able to track it down if you can't track it 

down.

CHIEF MALERBA: We've got more 

information. Hold on just a second. All 

right. We're going to email it to you. Thank 

you.

MS. LI: All right. Thank you. 

Sorry. I didn't mean to be disruptive.

CHIEF MALERBA: Not to worry. Thank 

you.

MS. LI: I didn't have that on my 

list. And as government liaison, it's 
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important that I participate in those. So 

thank you so much.

CHIEF MALERBA: Thank you.

CHAIR ALLEN: Thank you.

MR. JACKSON: We do not have any 

other hands raised. If you're online and would 

like to make a comment, please raise your hand 

so I can unmute you.

CHAIR ALLEN: That's it? Okay.

MR. VALLABHANENI: Any other items, 

Chairman Allen?

CHAIR ALLEN: No, I think we'd 

entertain a motion to -- go ahead.

MR. VALLABHANENI: Cora, go ahead.

MEMBER WHITE HORSE: Excuse me. 

There was one thing that I brought up 

yesterday. And that was large employer 

designation rather than tribal government 

designation on the ACA.

I think we should probably add that 

to a subcommittee, because I am sure it's 

affecting more than our tribe, because there 
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are I believe two or three tribes in the Great 

Plains region who sent resolutions to D.C. 

regarding their designation and requesting 

exemptions, because right now if you have over 

50 employees within your tribe you are no 

longer considered a tribal government. You're 

considered a large employee, yeah, large 

employer.

So there needs to be -- I believe 

it's a sovereignty issue. And we are a tribal

government. So we should be treated as such, 

rather than changing the designation to large 

employer.

So I think that could actually fit 

under the pensions.

CHAIR ALLEN: Yeah, that's what it 

sounds like to me.

MEMBER WHITE HORSE: Yeah.

MR. VALLABHANENI: So the one 

question I have, because on ECII I know how to 

spell it, that's it. But do you know if that's 

the same if it's like the State of New York? 
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Are they considered a large employer, or are 

they considered a sovereign, because I'm not 

sure how that would change?

MEMBER WHITE HORSE: I'm not sure --

MR. VALLABHANENI: Yeah.

MEMBER WHITE HORSE: -- but we have 

my cousin.

MR. VALLABHANENI: Oh, yeah, no 

problem.

MEMBER WHITE HORSE: Or we can have 

Mr. Barraza, too.

MR. VALLABHANENI: And I wanted to 

say that my question comes from ignorance. So 

--

MR. BARRAZA: For states, it's, 

they're considered governments. But there are 

exceptions that, for two federal requirements. 

So one of them is if you're Veterans Affairs, 

it's an exemption. And then the other one is 

if you're TRICARE. This is also an exemption.

But it's in the same category as 

Indian Health Services because it's a treaty 
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right. So it should fall under the same 

provision or it should be exempted.

But the current requirement is, 

because the tribe is a signatory of a treaty 

that requires that, a case last year under 

Arapahoe determined that signatories of this 

treaty, the tribes are guaranteed health care 

as of rights.

But those tribes are being penalized 

for not providing health care to 99 percent 

tribal enrollee members. So it doesn't -- the 

government is the one who's on the hook for 

that. But the tribe is still being penalized 

for it. So it's like a roundabout way. But 

the penalty is still coming to the tribe.

So it even needs to be categorized 

separately. And I tried to look it up. Lisa 

gave me some. And I reviewed the law, mainly 

the legislation, to figure out. And we'll talk 

further.

But I just wanted to bring it up, 

because our exemption for federal health care 
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programs, Indian Health Services, is the 

federal health care program that's provided to 

tribes and tribal members. So it maybe needed 

a technical legislative amendment. But we 

wanted to bring it up.

And because pensions are part of, 

ERISA regulates pensions and health care, we 

thought it would be best to just funnel it 

under the pensions program.

MR. VALLABHANENI: And, 

Councilmember, I want to say that I did raise 

it to people who aren't ignorant today. But 

they're going to need more information. So I 

did --

MS. MOJIRI-AZAD: If I may ask 

question.

MR. VALLABHANENI: Oh, yeah. Go 

ahead.

CHAIR ALLEN: Wait a minute. For 

the record --

MR. VALLABHANENI: Sorry.

CHAIR ALLEN: -- because I'm losing 
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control of this meeting.

MR. BARRAZA: Sorry. My name is 

Xavier Barraza. I'm --

CHAIR ALLEN: Yeah.

MR. BARRAZA: -- actually 

Councilwoman Cora White Horse's --

CHAIR ALLEN: Just for the scribe. 

Thank you.

Lisa, were you going to say 

something?

MS. MOJIRI-AZAD: Yeah, I just want 

to make sure we understand your question. It's 

in the context of providing health care 

coverage, right. And the concern you have is 

the designation of applicable large employer 

with respect to the penalties that apply under 

ACA. Is that right?

MR. BARRAZA: Yeah, but the 

penalties come from the IRS --

MS. MOJIRI-AZAD: Right, penalties, 

and not the reporting, right. You're concerned 

about the --
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MR. BARRAZA: Penalties.

MS. MOJIRI-AZAD: -- penalties.

MR. BARRAZA: Yeah.

MS. MOJIRI-AZAD: Okay. I just 

wanted to make sure. And when we were working 

on some of those rules, we did receive some 

comments with respect to tribal coverage. It's 

been a while. And we'll have to, as Krishna 

said, go back to our ACA colleagues and --

MR. BARRAZA: And so this individual 

exemption is for individual Indians --

MS. MOJIRI-AZAD: Yes.

MR. BARRAZA: -- who are covered 

under federal health care program.

MS. MOJIRI-AZAD: Yes.

MR. BARRAZA: But for some reason, 

that didn't apply to the tribes.

MS. MOJIRI-AZAD: Yes. And the 

individual exemptions were under Section 5000A 

with respect to the individual coverage 

penalties. I think what you're referring to is 

the penalties that apply to employers that are 
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required to provide coverage --

MR. BARRAZA: Yes.

MS. MOJIRI-AZAD: -- otherwise 

they're assessed a penalty based on the number 

of full-time employee equivalents and so forth. 

So we'll go back and mention it to our ACA

colleagues.

MR. BARRAZA: All right. Thank you.

MS. MOJIRI-AZAD: It's not an ERISA 

issue.

MR. BARRAZA: Oh, it's not?

MS. MOJIRI-AZAD: It's not an --

MR. VALLABHANENI: We'll talk more 

about it.

MR. BARRAZA: Thank you.

MR. VALLABHANENI: Vice President 

Micklin, you have your hand raised?

MEMBER MICKLIN: Thank you. I just 

wanted to make a kind of pitch. It would be an 

administrative subcommittee, and I think it's 

responsive to Councilmember Cagey's and Mr. 

Porter's remarks and my opening remarks that 
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there are issues with implementation of 

interpretative statute.

I mean, once we know what general 

welfare exclusion is, once we know what, have a 

better idea what pensions are, for example, or 

dual taxation, or this issue of penalties for 

health care providers, there is consistently a 

problem in implementation or administrative 

interpretation and implementation that provides 

for an inconsistent treatment of tribes where 

cities and states are treated extremely, with 

an extreme consistency. And yet tribes are 

subject to a number of misapplications, 

misinterpretations, in my view, at least 

divergences from what the expected result is to 

what is applied.

And I think a subcommittee to 

address those issues as a place for their 

review and report would be, I think provide a 

significant benefit. So I would propose the 

establishment of a subcommittee for that 

purpose. And I will leave it to Chairman to 
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determine how to consider that, whether in the 

next meeting or whether today. Thank you.

CHAIR ALLEN: Okay. Any other 

comments? So I think we need to put a place 

marker. Cora, I'm not sure. Does it fit under 

pensions or in a broader sense of pensions and 

benefits the way I was listening at least to 

summarize if you were on the same page --

MR. VALLABHANENI: So I'd say, Mr. 

Chairman, that, not that this needs to control 

anything that the TTAC wants to do with how it 

sets things up, the way the Office of Tax 

Policy is structured, there's an office that 

deals with pensions and ACA. It's called the 

Office of Benefits Tax Counsel.

So, to me, it makes sense that it's 

related. But it's strictly not, it has nothing 

to do with DOL, this particular thing.

CHAIR ALLEN: Okay.

CHIEF MALERBA: So does it make 

sense then to perhaps have, you know, Fatima 

reach out --
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MR. VALLABHANENI: Sure.

CHIEF MALERBA: -- to that office 

and just like raise the issue to see where it 

is best addressed? You know, so why don't we 

do that?

MR. VALLABHANENI: Yep.

CHAIR ALLEN: Yep. Fair enough, 

Cora? Okay. Yeah, sometimes they don't fit 

neatly into the way we have set ourselves up 

here at the moment.

Okay. Any other comments or other 

issues? If not, I think -- let's see. What 

time is it? It's 5:14, which is 4:00 Eastern 

Time, Indian Time.

CHIEF MALERBA: So, yeah, Ron knows 

that it kills me when we run over time. I'm a 

girl from New England here. He's killing me 

today. So --

CHAIR ALLEN: It was a good 

conversation. And I think it was useful. I 

just want to say I appreciate everybody's 

patience. It's like our GWE conversation. It 
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takes a little while to work your way through 

all these matters that are relevant, and say 

the obvious to you guys. It's complicated, 

because there's so many different issues that 

fall under the umbrella of Treasury and IRS.

So I think we're at the point where 

we can move to adjourn the meeting.

MR. VALLABHANENI: But prior to 

doing so, I'd like to invite you, Chairman 

Allen, to provide a --

CHAIR ALLEN: Closing prayer? Okay. 

Pray according to your own way and your own 

spirit, if you would.

So, gracious father and heavenly 

spirit, we're always ever so thankful that your 

wise arms are wrapped around each and every one 

of us, guiding each and every one of us, that 

your healing hand is always upon those who, our 

loved ones who are in need of that healing 

hand, including those who may have lost loved 

ones, and the grieving, which is always so 

challenging when you lose loved ones for 
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various reasons and the joy of the, are the 

memories of the journey together will help the 

healing.

We know that your spirit will be 

with each and every one of us. We're always 

ever thankful that your wisdom is in our 

hearts, in our minds, that you're always 

helping us guide a way to find common ground 

and a way to find solutions to complicated 

matters that affect our nations, very unique 

relationship between 574 Indian Nations and the 

United States of America. We have a very long 

history, an important history. And we ask that 

you guide each and every one of us, continue to 

bless each and every one of us with your 

wisdom.

We are ever thankful for the many 

gifts and talents that you provide each and 

every one of us. And we pray that you, that we 

use them in a way that's pleasing to you and 

the people that we serve.

We're always thankful for the 
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leadership. And we continue to bless the 

leadership. Thankful for Rebecca, and thank 

you for Jean, who have provided great 

leadership. And we pray you guide them onto 

their next journey and keep them safe and 

sound.

As many of us will be traveling 

home, we ask that you continue to provide your 

blessings that we travel home safely to our 

families, our friends, and our communities. We 

pray all these things this afternoon in Christ 

Jesus name. Amen.

CHIEF MALERBA: Thanks, Ron.

MR. VALLABHANENI: Thank you for 

that, Chairman Allen. With that, the meeting 

is adjourned.

(Whereupon, the above-entitled 

matter went off the record at 5:17 p.m.)
240

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