### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 1 DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY

APPLIANCE STANDARDS AND RULEMAKING FEDERAL ADVISORY COMMITTEE MEETING

Department of Energy 1000 Independence Avenue SW Forrestal Building Washington, D.C. 20585

Tuesday, May 28, 2013 10:00 a.m.

R e ported by: Natalia Thomas, Capital Reporting Company

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 2 1 A P P E A R A N C E S 2 F A CILITATOR 3 N e il Eisner, Navigant Consulting 4 5 P A RTICIPANTS 6 K a rim Amrane, Air-Conditioning, Heating, and 7 R e frigeration Institute (AHRI) 8 A s hley Armstrong, U.S. Department of Energy 9 T i mothy Ballo, Earthjustice 10 L a ura Barhydt, U.S. Department of Energy 11 J e ff Bauman, National Comfort Products 12 M a ry Dane, Traulsen 13 P a ul Doppel, Mitsubishi Electric 14 M a rk Fly, AAON Heating & Cooling Products 15 T o m Johnson 16 G e offrey Halley, SJI Consultants 17 C h arles Hon, True Manufacturing 18 J i ll Hootman, Trane 19 J o nathan Hunt 20 M a rshall Hunt, Pacific Gas & Electric Company 21 T o m Johnson, Daikin McQuay 22 J e ff Kleiss, Lochinvar

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 3 1 A P P E A R A N C E S 2 M i chael Kojak, UL LLC 3 K a ren Meyers, Rheem Manufacturing Company 4 F r ank Myers, PVI 5 M a ssoud Neshan, Southern Store Fixtures, Inc. 6 K e nt Peterson, P2S Engineering 7 M i chael Rivest, U.S. Department of Energy 8 H a rvey Sachs, ACEEE 9 J o e Saunders 10 R o nald Shebik, Hussmann Corporation 11 F r ank Stanonik, Air-Conditioning, Heating, and 12 R e frigeration Institute (AHRI) 13 L o uis Starr, Northwest Energy Efficiency Alliance 14 ( N EEA) 15 P h illip Stephens, HTP Advanced Heating and Water 16 S y stems 17 R u ssell Tharp, Goodman Air Conditioning and Heating 18 R o bert Whitwell, Carrier 19 20 21 22

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 4 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 MR. SACHS: Welcome to ACEEE and I hope we 3 c a n make it work. There's a little bit of boilerplate. 4 I did make a few notes. We've just been through our 5 a n nual fire drill, so it's not likely to happen again, 6 b u t there's an exit that way and an exit that way. Go 7 d o wn and out. 8 Restrooms -- washroom cultural tradition in 9 t h is class of office building is that restrooms are 10 l o cked. Geneve (ph) at the front is very and nice and 11 h a s keys to both the men's and the ladies, and she will 12 w a ve her arms to let you back in. 13 Beverages and snacks -- the corner bakery is 14 j u st below us; pretty easy to get to. Go down to the T 15 l e vel, which is the lobby level, for some reason, and 16 f o llow the directions. There are lots and lots of 17 o p tions here. You don't have to eat at the DOE 18 c a feteria. 19 I've tried to list them. I don't have a lot 20 o f experience with the upper end restaurants. And 21 i n ternet access for the guest Wi-Fi is right there. 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Hi.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 5 1 MR. SACHS: You're late. 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: I'm -- 10:15, you said. 3 MR. SACHS: Oh, that's right. 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: And technically, I'm here. I 5 h a ve 11D (ph). 6 MR. SACHS: Ashley gives as good as she can. 7 MR. EISNER: Do we know if Laura's coming? 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: She is, but you said 10:15. 9 MR. SACHS: That's right, it is 10:15 and I 10 a p ologize. 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: We follow directions. We're 12 t i mely here. 13 MR. SACHS: That's not something I ever 14 s c ored high on. 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: Following directions? 16 MR. SACHS: Yes. 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: I never would have guessed. 18 MR. EISNER: Let me mention that we have 19 d i fferent mics from what we usually have. These mics 20 a r e not necessarily as sensitive to your voice, but 21 t h ey will pick up side conversations, so please be 22 c a reful with that. Make sure you stick to the -- and

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 6 1 y o u know, the court reporter is doing a great job. 2 H e 's going to need your help. You're going to have to 3 p a y attention to that. It's a little different from 4 w h at we had at DOE where they have the individual mics. 5 All right, let's wait a little longer for 6 L a ura then we'll get started. 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: We can start if you want. 8 MR. EISNER: Okay. 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well you can start if you 10 w a nt. 11 MR. EISNER: Okay. 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: I can be Laura for a little, 13 f e w minutes. 14 MR. SACHS: For one that's a bit hard of 15 h e aring, if everyone can speak, even if you're speaking 16 t o the one adjacent to you, speak as though you're 17 t a lking to the corner of the room so that everyone can 18 h e ar. 19 MR. EISNER: Sure. And again, I'm told by 20 o u r court reporter that these microphones don't amplify 21 y o ur voice, they just pick up your voice. So you do 22 n e ed to speak loudly and clearly, and I'm one of those

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 7 1 p e ople who has to be very careful about that. All 2 r i ght. 3 MR. SACHS: The primary microphone is 4 a c tually on the hiding in the center over the altar and 5 i t will pick up most things. Once they installed this 6 s y stem a few months ago, we've had much less trouble 7 w i th our remote staff in our staff meetings. 8 MR. EISNER: All right. Why don't we start 9 o f f where we left off last week with the scope issue? 10 T h ere was one remaining issue, but the first thing I 11 w a nt to do is go over the paper that Ashley circulated 12 o v er the weekend with what she thought was what we had 13 r e solved based on the screens that she had been typing 14 f o r all of us. One person -- 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: Oh, that's what I'm supposed 16 t o do. Sorry, I'm learning how to use technology over 17 h e re. 18 MR. EISNER: So the first question is the 19 g e neral question, does everybody agree with the summary 20 t h at Ashley circulated during the weekend. I know a 21 f e w people wrote in with some corrections that they 22 w a nted made and Ashley was going to look at them and

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 8 1 d e cide whether they were just grammatical or typos, or 2 w h ether they were things we had to discuss. 3 And one person wrote in and said that he felt 4 t h at he had abstained or that his representative had 5 a b stained. This was Peter Molvie from Cleaver-Brooks. 6 W e did not -- we recalled, Ashley and I discussed that, 7 I recalled and she recalled that the concerns with this 8 p a rticular issue were discussed. We were not aware 9 t h ere was an abstention. We're willing to go back and 10 c l arify what the situation is and if Peter still wants 11 t o voice an abstention for that, we can add that to the 12 r e cord of the proceedings. Why don't we start off with 13 t h e issues that you got over the weekend from some of 14 t h e members? 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: Is Jeff on the phone? Is 16 J e ff Kleiss on the phone? Okay. So the only edits I 17 h a d were from Jeff and they happened to be in a 18 s p ecific section relative to the footnotes. But since 19 J e ff's not on the phone to explain his edits, maybe we 20 c a n start if anybody else in the room had edits or 21 i s sues? 22 We are loading this on SharePoint, which will

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 9 1 b e a live version for people to edit and we may have 2 a c cess for a week or so? Is that about right? About 3 a n other week, we'll probably have access, but we were 4 t r ying to reconcile this because the ASHRAE Committee 5 i s going to meet in June, sometime during the last two 6 w e eks of June, and if this committee does vote on 7 p r ovisions for AEDMs, we're going to go ahead and pass 8 t h at to the ASHRAE Committee to vote on so it can get 9 m o ving. 10 MS. HOOTMAN: Jill Hootman with Trane. I 11 t h ink overall you said that in here this was an overall 12 c o nsensus on all of these points. Right now I'm not 13 w i lling to say it's a consensus on not being to witness 14 t e sts of a unit. I believe we kind of tabled that 15 d i scussion to hear what some of the other things, but I 16 d o n't believe it is a consensus. At this point I'm not 17 r e ady to say that I'm in consensus. 18 MR. EISNER: Do we want to have more 19 d i scussion on that? 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I'm guessing that you want 21 t o table a final vote on this as a whole until we get 22 t o --

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 10 1 MS. HOOTMAN: Only that the DOE selects the 2 s i ngle, you know the -- 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: This part; right? 4 MS. HOOTMAN: -- the single unit spot check 5 o f yeah, not being able to witness, regardless of the 6 f a ct that they're a factory trained installer. 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Or an automatic witness 8 r e test. 9 MS. HOOTMAN: Correct. 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. 11 MR. STARR: I had a question. Louis Starr. 12 I s that on any size equipment or, because the bigger 13 e q uipment's getting tested at the factory anyway, the 14 l a rger training or larger air handling equipment 15 b e cause they know how big -- 16 MS. HOOTMAN: Larger air handling is not 17 c o vered in here. You've got everything from very large 18 H V AC and that -- in the case of HVAC, it all can be 19 t e sted as -- 20 MR. HALLEY: For the large boilers we're 21 t a lking about as well. 22 MS. HOOTMAN: Right.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 11 1 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. Some of the commercial 2 f u rnaces cannot be tested. 3 MS. HOOTMAN: That's true. Commercial 4 f u rnaces, you're right. I forgot about those. 5 MR. EISNER: So even with the automatic test, 6 r e test, you're not -- 7 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes, I'm not willing to say it 8 y e t. I'm not, I'm not saying I might not -- I can't 9 g e t there yet. I want to see some of the other things. 10 MR. EISNER: And are you talking about some 11 o f the other things meaning the last issue that we were 12 s t ill on, on scope, or are you talking about the next 13 p h ase of the negotiations? 14 MS. HOOTMAN: Things like basic model. Even, 15 y e ah, the other parts of what we have here what we were 16

- - 17 MR. EISNER: I think there are two ways we 18 c a n proceed, maybe three. One is we can put this off, 19 w h ich means they can't proceed with sending something 20 t o ASHRAE for committee and starting that rulemaking 21 p r ocess. But we can do that if that is the consensus 22 o f the group.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 12 1 Second is to see whether there are more than 2 t w o negative votes so that we know whether we can go 3 a h ead without unanimity. And then there might be some 4 v a riation in between to see if we can resolve it in the 5 n e xt couple days. Any discussion on that? Yes? 6 MR. HON: Charlie Hon. There was something 7 e l se happened in a different governmental department 8 l a st week which may put some other people's opinions in 9 a different situation as well. Energy Star is working 10 o n the 3.0 for commercial refrigeration self-contained 11 e q uipment, and they heard that this group was working 12 o n the AEDMs and the freestanding commercial 13 r e frigeration has always been tested only results for 14 t h e Energy Star listing and they were looking at the 15 p o ssibility of using AEDMs, the same as the DOE was 16 d o ing, which may affect somebody else's opinion whether 17 t h is is a good idea or not, because the energy -- some 18 o f the utilities are giving rebates off of this and 19 t h ey were very concerned about the possibility of using 20 A E DMs as a measure for Energy Star giving rebates on 21 f r ont tested equipment. 22 So I think that we owe them that bit of

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 13 1 i n formation, because that's happened within the last 2 w e ek. I objected to it in the meetings and they're 3 g o ing to be in contact probably. Ashley, I will need 4 t o have someone, some other name besides yours since 5 y o u're probably not going to be here. 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: We talked about it. I don't 7 t h ink they've made a decision yet. Chris knew about it 8 a l l along -- 9 MR. HON: Okay. 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- in terms of what we've 11 b e en doing, and the scope of what we plan to do is much 12 b r oader than -- I think it's still an issue on the 13 t a ble that hasn't been decided. My understanding was 14 i n itially they were leaning towards not allowing the 15 u s e of AEDMs for Energy Star certification purposes, in 16 w h ich case you would always have to take the testing 17 r o ute. 18 But like I said, I know he was open to the 19 d i scussion. He wanted to hear feedback. He wanted to 20 s e e how this process went. So by no means is that a 21 d e finitive decision. 22 MR. HON: Right. But that still could change

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 14 1 o t her people's opinions if it is a possibility. 2 MR. EISNER: Again, comments, suggestions on 3 h o w we should proceed on this issue? 4 MR. HALLEY: Geoff Halley with ABMA. I've 5 s t ill some concerns about several things that were 6 s i milar to what were expressed by Cleaver-Brooks, and 7 t h at is the difference in size of equipment and it 8 s e ems to me that although we agree with the efficiency 9 s t andards that have been defined by DOE, it seems as 10 t h ough we could have some real problems in the 11 c e rtification process. 12 And that is because we've got basically two 13 d i fferent market segments, one of which is relatively 14 s m all with a high unit count, and the other one is 15 l a rge units, but a relatively small unit count. And it 16 s e ems to me that DOE have relied heavily on the smaller 17 s e gment, the smaller unit size, capacity size, in 18 d e veloping the standards for testing so far. 19 And I think Cleaver-Brooks expressed some 20 c o ncerns about the BTS 2000 standard for boilers. I 21 a l so feel that there is some problems in that respect 22 t o be on the larger units. I'm not sure that people

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 15 1 r e ally understand the difference in size. It's like 2 c o mparing a smart car to a school bus. You may be able 3 t o get a small unit into a test lab on pallets, the 4 j a ck pallets. 5 But in the large units, you're probably going 6 t o need an 80 ton crane for the largest units. So 7 t h ere's a vast difference in size. There's a -- and 8 c e rtainly we talked about the need for technicians, 9 c e rtified technicians from the factory to do the 10 s t artup on these things. 11 Not only do I represent ABMA, but I also do a 12 l o t of forensic accident investigations as an expert 13 w i tness and I've seen some pretty impressive accidents 14 o n startup, because the guy, although supposedly 15 q u alified, didn't get it right. One of them ended up 16 w i th a $30 million lawsuit. 17 So I think we've -- I'd like people to 18 u n derstand that background in anything we do in this 19 d i rection as regards to testing large units or -- the 20 p r oblem I see is basically that although they've 21 d e fined the standards, in terms of efficiency, they 22 d i dn't put a cap anywhere on the biggest units for

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 16 1 s p ace heating. Maybe a cap, maybe an audit at some 2 p o int. 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I think from the 4 d e partment's perspective, you know you're talking about 5 a very specific issue to commercial package boilers. 6 T h at's not to say it's not relevant to these 7 d i scussions by any means, but one of the things that 8 t h e department has done, or is getting ready to do, is 9 k i ck off our role for commercial packaged boilers. 10 Things that would be on the table are the 11 t e sting standards; if those need to be changed because 12 t h ey can't be utilized. 13 MR. HALLEY: Yeah. Right. 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: If we need to consider a cap 15 t o better distinguish those commercial packaged boilers 16 t h at are really used for space heating versus those 17 t h at are not, how they are treated. To date the 18 d e partment has been triggered only by the actions of 19 t h e 90.1 Committee within ASHRAE. 20 So this is the first time that the department 21 w i ll undertake its own rulemaking for those. So, to 22 m e , the issues, while very relevant, are really

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 17 1 s e parate and should be addressed in that proceeding. 2 T h at being said, we do have regulations on the books 3 r i ght now with standards that will work -- you know, 4 c e rtification and compliance will be applicable to and 5 a r e applicable to today. 6 MR. HALLEY: Right. Yeah. 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I'm going to ask that you 8

- - I realize that they can't be bifurcated, but at the 9 s a me time, you know, we try to accommodate the 10 u n iqueness of that equipment which can't be tested at a 11 t h ird party lab, or which does need factory trained 12 i n stallers, or which we would go on-site and that types 13 o f things, in the negotiations the last two weeks. 14 So think about it with that in mind, because 15 I don't want to hold -- you know, the problem here is 16 w e can't hold this for three years while -- 17 MR. HALLEY: I understand that. 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: So -- 19 MR. HALLEY: I think you're going to get the 20 h i gh unit count by doing what they do. But if you get 21 t o a situation where you're going to develop further 22 w i th different test procedures, please ask ABMA to --

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 18 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Oh no, and that's what I'm 2 s a ying, you know that effort should be kicked off this 3 s u mmer. I made this statement at the ABMA show in 4 J a nuary. 5 MR. HALLEY: Yeah, okay. Yeah, I remember 6 y o u, yeah. 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: I was the one there. I 8 s t rongly encourage you all to participate, because your 9 p a rticipation is key to making that work for you guys 10 a n d us. 11 MR. HALLEY: That's right. Yeah, yeah, okay. 12 MS. MEYERS: This is Karen with Rheem. I'm 13 j u st getting feedback that the audio is not working. 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, they're working on it. 15 MS. MEYERS: Okay. 16 MR. SHEBIK: Ron Shebik of Hussman. I just 17 w a nt to, kind of going along with what Jill was saying. 18 A s far as allowing the manufacturer to witness the 19 t e st, I just want to throw in there, I think there is a 20 b e nefit to giving the manufacturer the option to 21 w i tness the test. 22 I spoke to people at my company; we have done

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 19 1 q u ite a variety of testing at multiple third party test 2 l a bs, and we have found that there is a benefit to 3 h a ving -- more often than not there's a benefit to 4 h a ving the manufacturer on site to measure discharge 5 t e mperature, to look at discharge temperature, to look 6 a t the evaporate temperature, to look at the placement 7 o f the simulators. 8 In the long run, it seems to me it would save 9 e v eryone time to give the manufacturer the option. If 10 t h e manufacturer has already worked with the lab and is 11 c o mfortable with the lab, they may or they may opt not 12 t o witness the test. But if it's something that 13 t h ey're not familiar with, I think they should be given 14 t h e option to be present and make sure the setup is 15 c o rrect. 16 I think in the long run, I think it saves 17 e v eryone time. I don't really see a negative part. I 18 s e e benefits only. 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I mean we negotiated these 20 t w o weeks ago with what the department was willing to 21 g i ve, what you guys were willing to give around the 22 t a ble. So Neil, I think I'm of the opinion at this

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 20 1 p o int that we should vote and see where we are in terms 2 o f do - - are we going back two weeks and starting over 3 a g ain? Because I thought that's where we were when we 4 e n ded the last meeting two weeks ago. 5 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. Are we to vote 6 o n all issues in your memo or only those -- 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: We can go -- I mean, however 8 e v erybody wants to do it. You can go, you know, I knew 9 t h e edits would come definitely, especially with 10 w o rding, because as I tried to write it down and write 11 i t in more detail as it would be reflected in rule 12 l a nguage, I expected edits. I didn't expect a complete 13 r e visiting of a decision. So ... 14 I think if it's easier to do section by 15 s e ction, that's fine. 16 MR. SACHS: There is one other issue that I 17 w a nt to bring up at the right time, and I just wanted 18 t o see whether we were doing a global or -- 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: Do you want to do it section 20 b y section? Maybe that would be easiest. 21 MR. SACHS: Well, I think we had an issue on 22 t h e table. We might as well just take that and

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 21 1 w h atever sections it covers. 2 MR. EISNER: Do people have problems with 3 e v ery issue? Because we did go through each one. We 4 d i d resolve them. We did take votes. Nobody said 5 a n ybody is -- 6 MS. HOOTMAN: We did not take a vote on that. 7 W e agreed to table that section. 8 MR. EISNER: That's not what I understood 9 t h at we agreed to table it. The only thing I 10 u n derstood that was unresolved was the last issue that 11 w e did not finish on. 12 MS. HOOTMAN: I said for that -- I know I 13 s a id for now I'm willing -- I want to see how the rest 14 o f this goes. So that was not saying I was in 15 c o nsensus. 16 MR. EISNER: That is not what I understood 17 f r om the discussion. That doesn't mean that it's 18 c l osed. We can go back to it, but I thought we had 19 a g reement on that issue because there were no more than 20 t w o negative votes and the two negative votes were 21 w i lling to go ahead. I did not understand that you 22 s t ill had an objection to it. So we can go back.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 22 1 MS. MEYERS: This is Karen -- 2 MS. HOOTMAN: If forced right now -- go 3 a h ead. 4 MS. MEYERS: I request we go back, because I 5 r e member clearly objecting to the no witness testing. 6 S o I'd request that we go back and revisit. 7 MR. EISNER: Okay. Yes. 8 MR. THARP: This is Rusty with Goodman. In 9 H R I meetings we typically have say an official vote, we 10 s a y ask for everybody for it to say aye, everybody 11 a g ainst it to say nay, and asks for any abstentions to 12 r e cord an actual vote number on each one, and I would 13 s u ggest that we might want to do the same thing. 14 MR. EISNER: We can do that, but understand, 15 w h en I say are there any objections, and no one says 16 t h ere's an objection, it would be an assumption that 17 e v erybody's agreed. I understand here, this one 18 p a rticular issue, there's a misunderstanding as to 19 w h ether they were objecting or not and we don't have 20 t h e court reporter's notes. 21 What I'm saying is if you want to take a vote 22 a n d have everybody logged in on each one of them, even

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 23 1 t h ough nobody has raised an objection, we can do that 2 t o o. You guys decide the rules. But when I say, are 3 t h ere any objections, and no one says there is, I'm 4 a s suming that everybody's in agreement. 5 There may be some misunderstanding about 6 a b stentions. We can ask for that, but do you want to 7 a m end the ground rules to require by name, that each 8 p e rson vote on each issue. It's your decision. 9 All right. Let me ask. Raise your hand and 10 i f you're on the phone, please say aye when the hands 11 a r e raised, does everyone want to change the rules to 12 r e quire a named vote on each issue. I'm sorry. I'll 13 n e ed your voices. 14 MR. BLAKE: The thing isn't working, so give 15 t h em another number, please. 16 MR. EISNER: And why don't you go ahead with 17 t h at, because this is important. How long will this 18 t a ke? Let's wait until they finish then and we won't 19 k e ep getting interrupted. 20 MR. WHITWELL: So you're sending another 21 n u mber? 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 24 1 MR. EISNER: Why don't we wait until they're 2 f i nished. 3 MR. MYERS: I was going to ask kind of a 4 q u estion to find out where we are on something. I can 5 w a it though. 6 MR. EISNER: She's trying to get a record and 7 I think it's very difficult. If everybody could angle 8 t h eir cards a little bit toward the front, the court 9 r e porter might have a little easier time knowing who's 10 s p eaking. 11 MS. BARHYDT: Can everyone on the phone hear 12 t h e voices in the room okay? 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Is that a no? 14 MS. BARHYDT: That didn't sound like a yes. 15 MR. MEYERS: Troy, can you hear us? 16 MR. SACHS: Marshall, we're not talking. 17 W e 're waiting for the call in group to be all up on the 18 n e w line. So this is a test. Can you hear me? 19 MS. MEYERS: I'm getting the same thing. 20 T h ey can hear each other, but they can't hear us. 21 MR. EISNER: Why don't we take a 10-minute 22 b r eak, give them a chance to try and fix this. No

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 25 1 r e ason to keep sitting here and looking at each other. 2 S o take 10 minutes, come back at about 20 to 11:00. 3 (Brief recess.) 4 MR. EISNER: Started again. All right 5 e v erybody, we got people in contact on the phone again, 6 s o let's get back to where we were. The first thing we 7 h a ve to resolve I think is this process issue. Again, 8 I want to stress, you as a group need to decide how you 9 w a nt to run the meetings, whether you want to have each 10 v o te registered by name, or whether you want to go 11 i n formally and say does anybody object. And the basic 12 r u le that we wrote was two objections, more than two 13 o b jections can block consensus. So I was going with 14 t h e idea that we needed to see whether there were -- 15 w a s any objecting. If not, presumably we have 16 c o nsensus. If we want to register a vote at that time, 17 w e can do it. So any comments, any suggestions, or 18 s h ould we just take a vote? Yes? 19 MR. STARR: I just -- this is Louis Starr 20 a g ain. I think this particular issue may have just been 21 a misunderstanding. I think the current way we're 22 w o rding is fine. It will be quicker at this point.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 26 1 MR. EISNER: Other thoughts? 2 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers, PVI 3 I n dustries. There's another -- you mentioned this or 4 t h at. I suspect the group would be happy if there was 5 g o od clarity. We are making a judgment on this issue. 6 T h is serves as our vote. Are there any objections? So 7 t h at everyone knows that that -- because we do a lot of 8 h o w do you feel about that. You know, does anybody 9 o b ject to that? As we're trying to come up with 10 s o mething, if at the end of that there was a more 11 f o rmal, this is our voice, our opportunity to settle 12 t h is issue, does anyone have an objection. So there's 13 c l arity that this is that issue that we're settling to 14 s e rve as a vote. 15 MR. EISNER: Okay. I can do that. I can 16 a c cept anybody who wants to remind me that I haven't 17 d o ne it at the end of the time, but usually when I've 18 g o ne onto the next issue, I think we've resolved the 19 o n e before. 20 I was telling some people at the break that 21 t h e first negotiated rule making we had a relatively 22 p r estigious arbitrator who agreed to work for us. His

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 27 1 a g ency let him work for us for free because they wanted 2 t o see if the process would work well, and they wanted 3 t o give us somebody who was very skilled at 4 n e gotiations. And he would simply say well, we appear 5 t o have consensus, so let's go onto the next issue. 6 T h e idea is people would raise their hand or they'd say 7 s o mething if they didn't think we had consensus. 8 But I will try to make it clear we are voting 9 o n the issue that we have been discussing. And if you 10 w a nt, I can also ask if anybody abstains. Again I 11 a s sume that if somebody had an objection or an 12 a b stention, they would say so at the time. Are there 13 a n y other comments? Yes? 14 MR. KLEISS: This is Jeff at Lochinvar. 15 W o uld it be doable to have, whatever the proposal is in 16 w r iting, on the screen, and at the conclusion of our 17 d e cision, to put in writing what the result is and if 18 t h ere are any negative votes or abstentions to record 19 t h em? 20 MR. EISNER: Jeff, I thought that's what we 21 w e re doing. I thought we had it up on the screen and I 22 t h ought nobody had any more concerns, and that's when I

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 28 1 u s ually said, nobody's raised any other issues so does 2 a n ybody object to this. I thought I was saying this 3 l a nguage, to what we had on the screen or what we just 4 a g reed to but I will try again to be clearer on that. 5 MR. KLEISS: And then we can record that on 6 t h e screen as well. 7 MR. EISNER: What we can try and do also is, 8 f o r example if DOE has the resources to do it, to have 9 s o mething circulated right away that reflects what was 10 o n the screen, or put it on SharePoint or something 11 l i ke that. 12 MS. BARHYDT: We're working on it. We're 13 w o rking on getting faster. 14 MR. EISNER: I agree with the comment -- that 15 m y experience with these kinds of things, it's best to 16 k e ep it informal. But you have to be comfortable with 17 t h at, not me. Other thoughts? 18 MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel with Mitsubishi. 19 N o , I thought we were pretty much going along with that 20 c o nsensus and you were saying except I do remember that 21 o n e issue in particular, it was a little cloudy as to 22 w h ere or how things ended.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 29 1 MR. EISNER: That's fair enough. Any other 2 c o mments? 3 MR. DOPPLER: But I think it's just that one 4 i s sue. I think all the other issues were fine. 5 MS. HOOTMAN: I agree. 6 MR. EISNER: Okay. All right, let me make it 7 c l ear what I think what I think we're agreeing to and 8 t h en we can take a vote, a consensus type vote. I will 9 m a ke a better effort to make it clear that we are at 10 t h e end of the -- I think we are at the end of the 11 d i scussion and it is time to vote to see whether we 12 a g ree with what we've put up on the screen. And I will 13 a s k if anybody objects or abstains. And all of you are 14 f r ee to say to me, don't forget to ask for objections 15 o r abstentions, because I could put all the notes down 16 o n the page and I'll still forget to look at them. All 17 r i ght. Does anybody object to that? Does anybody 18 a b stain? Yes? 19 MS. HOOTMAN: About how you're going to 20 p r oceed? 21 MR. EISNER: About how we're going to 22 p r oceed, yes.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 30 1 MS. HOOTMAN: Okay. 2 MR. EISNER: Okay, no objections? No 3 a b stentions? All right, let's go back to the document 4 t h at's in front of us, the scope issues. The ones that 5 A s hley circulated this weekend, not including the one 6 t h at we haven't finally resolved, let's talk about what 7 t h e issues are there. Would you like to proceed by 8 p e ople raising their hand and raising their issue, or 9 s h ould we just start with the first thing that was in 10 t h e package and go through the package? Thoughts on 11 t h at? 12 MR. KLEISS: Let's go straight to the 13 o b jections. 14 MR. EISNER: To the objection that was raised 15 b y Karen? 16 MR. KLEISS: Please. 17 MR. EISNER: Okay. 18 MR. ARMANE: I have a question before we go 19 t o the objection. Regarding the applicable products, 20 c e rtain commercial products are not listed here, like 21 f o r example walk-ins. 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 31 1 MR. AMRANE: Because? 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: They're out of the scope of 3 t h e negotiations. 4 MR. AMRANE: They are out of the scope of the 5 n e gotiations? 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: They're not in the 7 n e gotiations. 8 MR. EISNER: I'm sorry; I didn't understand 9 w h at the issue was. 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: He asked if walk-in coolers 11 w e re part of the negotiated rule making, and that was 12 n o t something that ASHRAE quoted on. It was just 13 c o mmercial HVAC, water heating and CRE. 14 MR. EISNER: Okay. The issue on the table, 15 w h ich I think has to do with the spot test that DOE 16 d o es, and whether people have a right to observe it, 17 t h e companies have a right to observe it. Comments? 18 MR. WHITWELL: Bob Whitwell from Carrier. 19 J u st clarification. So my understanding is, based on 20 w h at's written in here, is that there are some 21 e x ceptions, and under those exceptions manufacturers 22 c a n be present for the test. Other than that, they

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 32 1 a r e not. However, if they are not present for that 2 t e st, they can request a retest and be present for it 3 a n d that's automatic. 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Absolutely. That's how it's 5 w r itten. That was what we agreed to with you guys last 6 t i me. 7 MR. EISNER: If you ask, you automatically 8 g e t a retest. 9 MR. WHITWELL: You automatically get a 10 r e test. 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: It just means that you don't 12 h a ve to be onsite and DOE doesn't have to be onsite if 13 t h e unit passes, right. So it's just when there's an 14 i s sue and something fails -- 15 MS. HOOTMAN: Outside of tolerance. 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Outside of tolerance, the 17 t o lerances that we agreed on, you can request an 18 a u tomatic retest, period. 19 MR. WHITWELL: Okay, thanks. 20 MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel with Mitsubishi. So 21 d o es that mean that, okay that unit that's in there 22 t h at's being tested would remain and that unit would be

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 33 1 r e tested? Or are we talking a complete different unit 2 t o be retested? Because that's very -- the equipment 3 i s very expensive and so at that point -- 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's the same unit. It's the 5 s a me unit. There is a sentence in there that says that 6 t h e Department and the manufacturer -- let me find it. 7 A retest can be conducted on a different unit of the 8 s a me model if DOE and the manufacturer agree it is 9 n e cessary. By default, it will be the same unit. 10 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp with Goodman. In the 11 i n terest of the third party labs, that unit's not going 12 t o stay in the room until both DOE and -- 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct. So we would both go 14 t o -- they would reset it up. We would all do it. We 15 w o uld all watch it. We would all be there. And it 16 w o uld be automatic if you requested it. 17 MR. THARP: Okay. 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: That was what DOE was willing 19 t o give. 20 MR. THARP: Right. 21 MS. MYERS: This is Karen with Rheem. Is 22 t h at still considered part of the assessment testing or

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 34 1 i s that -- 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct. This is all 3 v e rification. We haven't gone past that. 4 MS. MYERS: Okay. 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's all about getting to a 6 v a lid test. 7 MR. ARMANE: Karim Armane with AHRI. What's 8 t h e reason for not attending the first test? Money? 9 MS. BARHYDT: Government resources. 10 MR. AMRANE: But then if we ask for a second 11 t e st, who'd be traveling? 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think it's a variety of 13 t h ings, right. I think that, you know, the going in 14 p o sition that if you -- my going in position is that a) 15 D O E administers valid test procedures, and b) that if 16 t h ird party labs have enough capability to run the DOE 17 t e st procedure. And I think that is DOE's position on 18 t h is, and for me to say that both myself and somebody 19 e l se needs to be at a lab just so that they can 20 a d equately run a DOE test procedure I don't think is a 21 v a lid position for the department. 22 MR. AMRAME: But you're still allowing it for

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 35 1 t h e second test. 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: We are allowing (inaudible). 3 W e want you to be comfortable with the test result as 4 d o we. So we are willing to give, yes. We do not think 5 i t 's necessary for every single test we do in a third 6 p a rty lab. 7 MR. EISNER: Do we have any numbers on the 8 p e rcent that fail? 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's really small. 10 MR. AMRANE: We don't think we're saying 11 t h at, we're saying upon request, if somebody requests 12 t h at. It might be that for 95 percent of the time that 13

- - 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Karim, the real issue here is 15 t h at for units that come out with a potential invalid 16 r e ading anyway, that is where there will be an issue. 17 F o r those that pass or that have a valid reading with 18 i n tolerance, there is not discussion to be had, right. 19 So if you get an automatic retest and you get 20 t o be onsite for that, if there is a potential invalid 21 r a ting issue, what is the problem? You're getting what 22 y o u want anyway?

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 36 1 MR. AMRANE: You're right, except that you 2 a r e doing a second test and you spend more money. 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: And the department gave to 4 t h at, because that is what you want. So we're coming 5 t o the table, we're saying we're willing to give, we're 6 w i lling to work with you. We understand it's 7 i m portant. But our position is that these third party 8 l a bs have expertise in testing and that our test 9 p r ocedures are written in a manner that they should be 10 a b le to be administered without DOE's supervision or 11 m a nufacturer's supervision. 12 For the units that need a factory trained 13 i n staller for BRFs, we've made provisions in there that 14 b y default someone will be there. For units that 15 c a nnot be tested at a third party lab, we've made 16 p r ovisions that they can be tested at a manufacturer's 17 f a cility. Obviously, you will be there. What is the 18 r e al issue? Why is this a problem? 19 MR. EISNER: Pardon? 20 MR. ARMANE: I'm not saying it's a problem. 21 I ' m not saying it's a problem. We're just saying that 22 t o avoid having to do possibly a second test, it's

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 37 1 r e ally a cost issue here. Which should be of concern 2 t o you as well, because DOE is going to be paying for 3 i t , right? 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, I'm not sure DOE would 5 b e paying for someone to travel to every single test 6 y o u requested, when 90 percent of them might come out 7 v a lid. I mean I'm not sure which one's more cost 8 e f fective here. 9 MR. SACHS: Let me -- this is Harvey and I 10 w a nt to take a slightly different perspective. The 11 f i rst thing I want to do is just re-emphasize what 12 G e off Halley started out this morning with. That we 13 r e ally have two kinds of equipment here, not whether 14 i t 's CRE or a water heater, but whether it's one off 15 e n gineered product of very large capacity, and that's 16 b e en approximated as can't be done in the third party 17 l a b, or whether it's some sort of a production schedule 18 p r oduct. 19 And I think this issue of the unwitnessed 20 t e st is really about the second category. The stuff 21 t h at is production series can be trucked to a lab and 22 c a n be tested. The one reason that -- and that

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 38 1 g e nerally is stuff for which we might have a factory 2 t r ained technician, but it's not likely to be a factory 3 p e rson coming in to set up and commission the product. 4 I t 's not likely. One of Frank's boilers. 5 The reason that I'm sort of in favor of this, 6 c a ll it blind installation and testing, because it's a 7 t e st of the test procedure but also a test for the 8 m a nufacturer's instructions. It is a close simulation 9 o f the best case we're going to see in the field when a 10 m e chanical contractor gets that piece of equipment and 11 i s strapping it down. 12 And in that sense, if it fails, it is 13 p o ssibly only an indication of an instruction manual 14 p r oblem. So I think it's an important signal that we 15 c a n get at relatively little cost by having that first 16 s t ep for serious production items be done just by the 17 t h ird party lab. Is that helpful, Karim? 18 MS. HOOTMAN: Jill Hootman at Trane. Ninety19 f i ve percent of the time, I would agree that we're very 20 c o nfident with the labs. I'm worried about new 21 t e chnology, new things, never been tested there, always 22 b e en tested within ourselves, and the very first time

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 39 1 t h e lab is presented with it, regardless of how good I 2 a m at writing instructions, there will be something, 3 r i ght, that is not right? 4 And we've spent a lot of money on a piece of 5 e q uipment and a test, and it's not right. And I don't 6 t h ink that that's really the best use of the 7 d e partment's money when it could have been for a very 8 s m all fee of a trip taken care of in the beginning. 9 MR. KOJAK: This is Mike Kojak with UL. I 10 t h ink it also says in there if the third party lab has 11 q u estions, we can raise those questions with the DOE 12 a n d then contact the manufacturer so we can all discuss 13 i t . When tests are being conducted at our lab, our 14 p r oject engineers, before the test unit even goes in 15 t h e lab, looks over the equipment, looks over the test 16 p l an, makes sure that they're familiar with everything 17 t h at's going to happen. That's the time, before it 18 g o es it even goes into the lab, that the questions 19 w o uld be raised and then they would contact the DOE and 20 t h en the manufacturer would be getting involved. 21 So if it's a brand new technology, I would 22 a s sume that's the avenue it would take, instead of just

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 40 1 a run of the mill type of test. 2 MR. HALLEY: Geoff Halley with ABMA. I think 3 t h ere's another factor that may -- sort of ought to be 4 c o nsidered and that's simply the safety aspects of 5 s t artup. I think that the manufacturer of certain 6 t y pes of equipment ought to be aware that the test is 7 g o ing to take place, because he may know some things 8 t h at the test lab does not know. 9 There seems to be, in certain areas, a clash 10 b e tween energy saving requirements and safety 11 r e quirements. 12 MR. EISNER: Is there any language that can 13 b e put in the product material that the company comes 14 u p with, saying get this equipment as tested, the 15 f o llowing ought to be done, kind of language? 16 MR. HALLEY: I think we can probably come up 17 w i th something. I don't think there always is at this 18 p o int. 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, for those products I 20 w o uld assume -- 21 MR. HALLEY: We're probably going to be 22 t e sting them in the manufacturers facility as well, but

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 41 1

- - 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: I was going to say, I think 3 f o r those products, a) you'll be in a manufacturer's 4 f a cility with them onsite or b) they required a factory 5 t r ained installer, so by default he would have to be 6 o n site. 7 MR. HALLEY: Right, right. 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: And that's how we wrote 9 t h ese, so ... 10 MR. HALLEY: Okay, fine. 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. 12 MR. EISNER: Any further discussion of the 13 i s sue? Karen? 14 MS. MEYERS: This is Karen Meyers with Rheem, 15 a n d I'm just going to make the same comment I've made 16 s e veral times, but you know since this is -- it's 17 c o mmercial equipment which is very complicated. It's 18 n o t residential equipment. You know, I just think to 19 b e the most efficient that we can be, that if you are 20 g o ing to do an assessment test on a commercial piece of 21 e q uipment, contact the manufacturer. 22 Say it's scheduled for this date. Let us

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 42 1 k n ow if you wish to be present at least for the setup 2 a n d startup of the unit. It's -- to me, I guess I'm 3 s t ruggling with -- because once you take that 4 c o mmercial piece of equipment out of the lab and you 5 r e schedule another one and you put it back in there, 6 s o meone who's built commercial equipment for many, many 7 y e ars, and understands the complexity of the test, it 8 j u st seems to be the most efficient way for us to move 9 f o rward. 10 Not trying to influence the test or anything, 11 j u st trying to do what -- to get as accurate a test as 12 w e can and get it done right the first time. I would 13 s a y that typically in AAHRI program, when a commercial 14 p i ece of equipment is tested, there is maybe -- I mean 15 w h at would you say the percentage is that the 16 m a nufacturer is talking with the lab during one of 17 t h ose tests, because of the complexity, and there is a 18 l o t of new technology coming forth. 19 I mean if you, if you're testing one of my 20 s e ven-and-a-half ton pieces of equipment and you let me 21 k n ow, I'm probably not going to be too worried about 22 i t . But if you're testing a 25 or 30 ton piece of

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 43 1 e q uipment that's much more complex, I'm probably going 2 t o say, you know this is not your average run of the 3 m i ll piece of equipment. I'd like to be present to 4 m a ke sure it's setup and the test is run accurately. 5 So I'm not -- I think allowing the 6 m a nufacturer to be present is just making sure it's 7 d o ne accurate, and I don't think you're going to find 8 t h at they're going to want to be present for every 9 s i ngle test. So I mean that's just my perspective on 10 i t . It's, you know, this is not something where I 11 t h ink you're going to have a DOE representative at 12 e v ery single test. 13 MR. SACHS: Karen, this is Harvey, and I've 14 b e en listening to you and Jill and others, and I'm 15 h e aring a focus on early installations of new 16 t e chnologies. And I'm also hearing DOE is doing a vast 17 v a riety of things from stuff that's been on the market, 18 t o stuff that's new. 19 And I wonder if DOE might be willing to 20 c o nsider a cut which says for products that have been 21 o n the market less than X months, or two years, or some 22 s u ch number, and are of capacity above such and such,

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 44 1 t h ings which they would be likely to send somebody out 2 f o r, that it can be witnessed on this first test. And 3 f o r things that are mature production products, we're 4 j u st going to go ahead. 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't, I mean, I don't 6 t h ink we're -- what we can't do is commit to allowing 7 s o meone on site all the time. There are going to be 8 c i rcumstances where DOE can't be there, period. And so 9 w h at I think our position is, is this is the best we 10 c a n do. 11 We will -- we can commit to if something 12 f a ils, you guys automatically retesting, because that's 13 a smaller number we can get our hands around it. But I 14 d o n't think to say that you know -- to commit to 15 a l lowing someone there all the time. 16 Harvey, I get your point of you know in 17 c e rtain circumstances where there's new technology or 18 y o u know innovative designs or that kind of stuff, high 19 e f ficiency equipment, you know, but I don't know that 20 w e could commit to -- 21 MR. SACHS: Well, I would like to ask -- what 22 a r e the words --

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 45 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, what are the words? I 2 m e an, what is the line? 3 MR. SACHS: I would propose words which have 4 a little bit of fill in to be done for products which 5 h a ve been on the market for less than 18 months. 6 MS. BARHYDT: So define products that have 7 b e en on the market for less than 18 months. 8 MR. SACHS: If you've got information that 9 i t 's a certified product that's being sold. 10 MS. BARHYDT: So if they tweak an old design 11 a n d it's new, but it's older technology, that would 12 q u alify. 13 MR. SACHS: Well, I have the second clause. 14 MS. BARHYDT: Okay, sorry. 15 MR. SACHS: And the second clause, which is 16 i n the upper most 20 percent of capacity classes 17 o f fered for that product class. So it's now 18 e x clusively stuff that's new to the market and big and 19 e x pensive. So that would be a straw man. I'm not 20 c o ncerned about the particular numbers, but that's the 21 w a y I'm trying to formulate this very small exception. 22 MS. BARHYDT: And big and expensive is not

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 46 1 a l ready covered by the provisions that are already up 2 t h ere? 3 MR. SACHS: Well, apparently not to the 4 s a tisfaction of the people who are making some of the 5 b i g and expensive stuff. 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: So what was your top 20 7 p e rcent qualifier on? One more time. 8 MR. SACHS: The top 20 -- again, and I'm not 9 s u re that's the right number -- 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 11 MR. SACHS: Of capacity classes. We can do 12 i t by model numbers, we can do it by size classes, and 13 e i ther way we're trying to say it's the big stuff that 14 i s also new. 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: Wouldn't it be the big stuff 16 t h at's efficient? I mean, if we're talking about new 17 d e signs, if we're talking about innovative designs, 18 a r en't we talking about that for which is being entered 19 i n to commerce that has new technologies and new ways of 20 d o ing things, so it's really not at the standard level. 21 W e 're talking about those that are pushing the realm. 22 MR. SACHS: Okay, so --

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 47 1 MS. HOOTMAN: Well, I don't know. This is 2 J i ll at Trane. I don't know, Ashley, because right now 3 w e know that you are looking at the IER, but right the 4 m e tric is full load. And we certainly could be still 5 a t a very minimum full load level and pressing the 6 e n velope on part loads. 7 So you know it's not necessarily new or 8 a d vanced in the full load, but it's new and advanced in 9 h o w it might be approaching the part load of 10 e f ficiency. And you know I also envision right now I 11 c a n see -- and I've said this last time -- the test 12 s t andard is in the process of changing, because we 13 r e cognize right now there are products that are going 14 t o come out on the marketplace that it doesn't address, 15 c a n't be tested by the test standard. They're not 16 t e sted properly by the test standard, so ... 17 MR. EISNER: Is there a way of -- 18 MS. HOOTMAN: So in that catch-22, where you 19 h a ven't adopted it yet, and we have an old test 20 s t andard, is there a way that on our listings or 21 c e rtifications that we say, yes, this is one of the 22 m o dels. And it would probably only be checked, like I

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 48 1 s a y, a small percentage of the time. 2 MR. EISNER: I don't know enough about how 3 t h e process works, so my suggestion may not work. But 4 I ' m assuming you start to manufacture something that 5 y o u're going to sell that you know would be subject to 6 t h eir spot testing. Is there a process where you could 7 w r ite the rule that said, the manufacturer, when it 8 b e lieves it is developing a product that would be 9 s u bject to DOE testing and requires a waiver from the 10 n o attendance at the spot check, the manufacturer can 11 a s k or request a waiver if such a test is conducted? 12 DOE can talk to you about why it is you think 13 t h e product is unique, why you think it requires your 14 p r esence there, and they could say we agree or we don't 15 a g ree. Presumably, if they get a few of these a year, 16 t h e resources will allow it. If they get hundreds of 17 t h em a year, they may say, we only can pick the ones 18 t h at are at the top of the scale. 19 MR. BAUMAN: Can I -- Jeff Bauman -- I think 20 s o me are saying a lot of valid points have been brought 21 u p , Harvey, everybody's been bringing up valid points. 22 I think, when I go back and think about, I'll say the

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 49 1 c o mpromises we made last week or two weeks ago when we 2 g o t to the points where we said, a manufacturer cannot 3 o n ly in their instruction manuals, but they can provide 4 a d ditional information to the labs that say, a) if this 5 i s your new piece of equipment, when I had equipment 6 t h at I'm listing or whatever, I can provide additional 7 i n formation to DOE labs and say, this is how it has to 8 b e tested, where's there's particular or we want -- I 9 d o n't think DOE would object to part of your 10 i n structions. 11 Say the lab needs to contact us if they're 12 g o ing to test this model. Because I think -- I think 13 a b out your point, Harvey, too, and I mean, some -- no 14 o n e's models that -- we could do that new technology 15 t o day; you guys might not test it for two years. So 16 n o w I'm out of that realm that I need to, so I 17 u n derstand it's difficult to get to that point, too. 18 B u t when you have a new technology -- 19 MS. HOOTMAN: Somehow go back and recheck it 20

- - 21 MR. BAUMAN: Right. 22 MS. HOOTMAN: -- you know or something. Like

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 50 1 y o u said the waiver, go back and say, okay, now it's 2 o u t of that. 3 MR. BAUMAN: And in some of the provisions I 4 t h ink you've already thought we agreed on last week, 5 a n d issues of safety, I think, you know, we -- hope 6 M i ke's not going to burn down his lab when he tests for 7 t h e unit or whatever, and I think we have that faith 8 a n d confidence that they're going to be able to at 9 l e ast at that level, be able to test the unit without 10 t h ere being too much of a safety issue, although there 11 c o uld be some. And if they would come with something 12 w h ere they think it's going to be a safety issue, they 13 h a ve the opportunity to contact the manufacturer to let 14 t h em know. 15 So I think that's -- I think a lot of this 16 h a s sort of been, if you think about some of the 17 c o mpromise and the automatic, you know, there's 18 a u tomatic retest and things, I think a lot of the 19 i s sues can be addressed in the things that we've 20 a l ready included in the wording that we've agreed to on 21 s o me of the additional requirements. 22 And again, costs, you know, Karim, I think

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 51 1 h a d valid points about the cost of additional retests, 2 b u t DOE's, as far as I know, they're paying for both 3 t e sts. You know and they're saying that's a better way, 4 b e tter spending of their money on the economics of it, 5 s o you know I don't know why we would have objection to 6 t h at. 7 They're paying for both tests. You know and 8 I can understand, when you think about how many units 9 t h ey test, do they really -- and think about your 10 p r oducts, but if you're trying to be level-handed 11 a c ross the board, you know, you want to either go in 12 o n e direction or another. If they have to test 800 or 13 m o re units a year, that is a lot of money for them to 14 h a ve to. 15 And if 90 percent of those are, they don't 16 h a ve to, then economically it probably makes more sense 17 t o do it witnessing the retest, and then for them to 18 p a y the second test, so. Just my thoughts. 19 MR. EISNER: Other comments, thoughts? 20 MS. DANE: I'm Mary Dane from Traulsen. Is 21 t h ere a way that we can discuss maybe some of the 22 t h ings we'd like to see the labs be able to do? Like

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 52 1 y o u wouldn't send our unit to a lab that wasn't 2 c e rtified to do a UL 471 test, and that the person 3 c e rtified that's going to be doing the test on the 4 e q uipment, would at least understand the safety 5 s t andard to working on that, that they weren't just 6 g o ing to send it and have the VCR guy do the testing 7 t h at particular day, because that might help alleviate 8 s o me of the issues. 9 And I don't know if this is the place we want 10 t o talk about it or we want to talk about it in the 11 s l ides where you were talking about the 17025. I just 12 w a nt to make sure that -- 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's coming. 14 MS DANE: Okay. I just wanted to make sure 15 t h at we brought that up before we get too far in the 16 d i scussion -- 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. I mean laboratory 18 a c creditation requirements go through a third party, 19 a n d for in-house laboratory are on the table. 20 MS. DANE: Okay. 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Absolutely. 22 MS. DANE: Now, the other question I had was

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 53 1 r e lated to -- there was some discussion about -- and 2 t h is was more for the HVAC people and the furnaces, is 3 t h ey were talking about holes in their ductwork in the 4 w r ong places and things like that, is there anything 5 t h at precludes us from being able to put the thermal 6 c o uples, pre-thermal couples some of the equipment 7 b e fore we send it? 8 Or does that fly in the face of -- you know, 9 b e cause once you cut a hole in something, you can't 10 t e st it, you have to send it back. So I mean we're 11 a s king is there a way that we can help show where those 12 t h ings would be, and I know it takes away from the 13 s e crecy of selecting a piece of equipment, but ... 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, I think just depends. 15 I don't think our answer is going to be yes, you can 16 a l ways do that. 17 MS. DANE: Okay. 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: You know to the extent we get 19 t o the point of thinking we need that, that could be 20 p a rt of our selection process. I mean the realization 21 i s of the ones we've tested to date, we've -- you know, 22 t h ese are ones that we haven't gotten from any of you

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 54 1 i n the room. 2 MS. DANE: Okay. 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, you know, to say that we 4 a l l -- you know, we've been able to test them; we've 5 b e en able to run a program one way or the other, you 6 k n ow, of mostly non-custom built to order type things. 7 S o we've been able to find them. 8 MS. DANE: So there's going to be continued 9 d i scussion on how you go about selecting a lab, so we 10 m i ght be able to alleviate some of our concerns at that 11 p o int? 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Sure, sure. I mean, to the 13 e x tent that would alleviate some of the concerns in 14 t e rms of adding additional requirements to the labs 15 c a pabilities or accreditation requirements. But keep 16 i n mind, it's also going to be turned around as to why 17 d o n't you guys also need them? 18 MS. DANE: But we would not send our 19 c o mmercial refrigeration to be tested by a VCR guy -- 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, no. I completely 21 u n derstand. 22 MS. DANE: Okay.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 55 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: But if Mike needs to be 2 c o mpetent in standard X, Y, and Z, then to be 3 c o mparable, your lab needs to be competent in X, Y, and 4 Z , whatever that may be. That's how that discussion, 5 y o u know. But that is for what are laboratory 6 a c creditation requirements and what should be 7 c o nsidered? 8 MS. DANE: Okay. Thank you. 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, absolutely. 10 MR. EISNER: Okay. Other thoughts? 11 MR. WHITWELL: I have another; this is Bob 12 W h itwell from Carrier. John Mandyck is on the phone. 13 H e 's monitoring the discussion and he's thrown out 14 a n other possibility for discussion. And that would be 15 t h at since DOE has stated that the issue with 16 m a nufacturers being there for every test, it's a 17 f i nancial, a budgetary issue. 18 Would it be a possibility for manufacturers 19 t o pay for DOE to be present, in order to be able to be 20 a t that test? 21 MS. BARHYDT: No. 22 MR. WHITWELL: No?

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 56 1 MS. BARHYDT: Government rules don't allow 2 i t . 3 MR. WHITWELL: Just throwing it out there. 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: A lot of government rules and 5 a lot of years' worth of paperwork. If it would even 6 b e possible. Just for a single year. 7 MR. MANDYCK: Yeah, but what if it's 8 s t ructured as a fee? 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: We can't do fees. 10 MS. BARHYDT: We don't have statutory 11 a u thority for that. 12 MR. SACHS: No good idea will go unpunished. 13 MR. SHEBIK: Ron Shebik with Hussman. I 14 g u ess maybe trying to bring the group together here, is 15 t h e concern if the manufacturer would want to be 16 o n site, is it because the integrity of the test, DOE 17 w o uld not -- I mean DOE is paying for a test, 18 r e gardless of the lab. 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think it's two things. I 20 m e an Harvey hit it on the head. If you think that our 21 t e st procedures, a third party testing lab, your 22 i n stallation manuals and any additional guidance you're

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 57 1 g i ving us, along with the fact that the test lab has 2 t h e ability to talk to you when they leave their hands 3 i f they need to, is not sufficient to test your 4 p r oduct. 5 To me we have a larger issue, in that it 6 c o uld be a test procedure issue. That could be an 7 i n stallation guide issue. It's just a larger issue 8 g e nerally that we don't have a way that a product's 9 p e rformance can be verified without you doing it 10 y o urself. 11 And I think that what we've done here is say, 12 o k ay, before we will declare a valid test, we will give 13 i t the benefit of the doubt to you guys and say hey, 14 w h at -- here's the results. Here's everything we have, 15 h e re's what happened, we need to have a discussion. 16 And as part of that discussion you can say, I 17 w a nt a retest and I want to be onsite. So at that 18 p o int, I just, I guess I don't understand. I mean, one 19 o f the pathways we could go down here I think at this 20 p o int is, another thing that Harvey suggested, the 21 d e partment could say, okay, we'll allow you to say 10 22 p e rcent of your models that you've certified the

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 58 1 d e partment, you'd like to be witnessed upfront, or put 2 s o me cap. 3 Maybe 10 percent is not the right number. 4 M a ybe 20 percent is not the right number. But we would 5 k n ow at the outset that that's what you wanted to do. 6 B u t then I think we re-talk about that automatic 7 r e test. 8 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah, that's right. 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: You know, you weigh what you 10 w a nt here. This is an automatic retest for failures 11 a n d you get it. You get the right to do it no matter 12 w h at, whether it's a valid one or whether it's not, and 13 t h e results may be identical. 14 But if you want us to go down a pathway of 15 c o nsidering something like you get to say 10 percent on 16 s i te, then I think the department gets to say, okay, we 17 n e ed to renegotiate automatic retests. And I think 18 y o u're -- this is the, you know, your automatic retest 19 w h ere you get to be onsite for everything, is really 20 w h ere the definitive point is of coming out with a 21 p o tential invalid rating. I mean weigh what options 22 y o u may want here from us.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 59 1 MR. SHEBIK: Okay. I understand what you're 2 s a ying. This Ron Shebik from Hussman. I understand 3 w h at you're saying. My concern is not putting down a 4 n u mber that we want to be present at 10 percent or 20 5 p e rcent. It's we have used quite a few third party labs 6 o v er the years for testing and they don't -- we see 7 p r oduct installed above the low limit so you don't have 8 y o ur air curtain, we don't see the proper monitoring of 9 t h e evaporator temperature. 10 We see a lot of things that are going on out 11 t h ere that if you had somebody onsite, right away they 12 w o uld know here's what you need to look -- you need to 13 l o ok at that. You need to check this. You need to 14 c h eck that. It would save time. It would save time 15 f o r everybody. I'm not -- 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Those are our options, I 17 t h ink. 18 MR. SHEBIK: If you don't -- 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: From the department. 20 MR. SHEBIK: Okay. 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, to argue your 22 a r gument, then you're advocating for exactly what Mary

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 60 1 i s , lab accreditation and auditing requirements, both 2 o n third party labs and manufacturing labs. 3 MR. SHEBIK: I can't say for all 4 m a nufacturers, but I think if the manufacturer is 5 c o mfortable with the lab, they're familiar with the 6 l a b, I don't think they're going to be sending many 7 t h ere. I don't think there'd be -- I don't think they 8 w o uld happen. I honestly don't. 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: You're asking me to commit to 10 t h at without knowing that. I don't think that's 11 r e asonable. 12 MS. SHEBIK: I'm just trying to bring the 13 g r oup together here, because we're spending a lot of 14 t i me on this topic, so ... 15 MR. EISNER: Yes. 16 MR. STEPHENS: Phil Stephens, HTP. I think 17 w e 've agreed we've narrowed it down to what's important 18 t o these groups. It's the high efficiency, the 19 i n novative, and the large capacity units. Could we 20 f u rther narrow it down to say the first time the 21 p r oduct in a basic model group or product family has 22 b e en audited?

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 61 1 That would significantly reduce the burden on 2 D O E for the onsite, and I think that may also meet your 3 o b jectives for what you're saying if it's linked to 4 t h at first case. Would that work? 5 MR. EISNER: You want to respond? 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, I mean, two things that 7 y o u want do, a high capacity, high efficiency, first 8 t i me, I don't know that -- like I said, I don't we 9 n e cessarily have an issue with that, but it's going to 10 b e where do you draw that line? 11 MR. EISNER: By that you mean how you define 12 t h ose -- 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Uh-hm. And it's going to be 14 d i fferent for every single, I'm going to say validation 15 c l ass is the language I went with here, product class, 16 w h atever, however we want to say it. 17 MS. MEYERS: So this Karen with Rheem. My 18 q u estion is when DOE does a test, are they solely going 19 t o rely on what is in the I&O to run that test? 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Let's see. 21 MS. HOOTMAN: No, we have notes. 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: There's notes there. It

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 62 1 s a ys, "DOE will supply the following additional 2 i n formation to the lab for testing. Any additional 3 i n formation that is needed regarding test setup or 4 t e sting will be provided from the manufacturer or its 5 t h ird party representative, to DOE through the 6 c e rtification process. 7 "DOE will then provide this information to 8 t h e laboratory, as long as it's in accordance with the 9 D O E test procedure. The laboratory may not use any 10 a d ditional information beyond that. However, the 11 l a boratory may request additional information on setup, 12 i n stallation, or testing as needed, from the 13 D e partment." 14 So that would seem to say, no. You know, you 15 m a y provide information, additional information that is 16 n e cessary to test your product. That being said, it 17 c a nnot be in conflict with our test procedure. 18 MR. WHITWELL: No, but it doesn't -- sorry. 19 B o b Whitwell at Carrier. But it doesn't necessarily 20 h a ve to be in the installation, operation. 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct. 22 MR. WHITWELL: Because there are things that

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 63 1 w o uld be required to run the DOE test procedure, that 2 t h e installed customers don't care about. 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Do not -- in the I&O. That's 4 c o rrect. 5 MR. WHITWELL: Right. 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: You just have to certify it 7 t o DOE when you certify whatever concept we come up 8 w i th. 9 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, so we still have to work 10 o u t what the process is for that to be done. 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct. 12 MS. MEYERS: So if you're testing a unit with 13 a n economizer in it, then would you remove the 14 e c onomizer before you tested the unit? 15 MR. WHITWELL: If the instructions say do so. 16 T h e lab instructions are there. 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: It doesn't account for it; 18 c o rrect. 19 MS. HOOTMAN: So there's still a -- 20 MS. MEYERS: So I mean, you're going to have 21 t o let us know, because there's all these factory22 s u pplied options, so if you were to test a unit that

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 64 1 h a d -- I mean and it's highly possible, you can get 10 2 d i fferent, a multiple number of factory supplied 3 o p tions, you're going to remove all of those from the 4 u n it before you run the test, and significantly alter 5 t h e unit. 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Nope. 7 MS. MEYERS: But if it not accounted for -- 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, he said the economizer. 9 H e 's correct. The economizer is not accounted for the 10 t e st procedure. 11 MS. MEYERS: Well, if I have a CO2 sensor, if 12 I have an economizer, if I have -- 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, I think we're getting 14 a little -- 15 MS. MEYERS: Well, I mean, but that's what 16 I ' m trying to explain the complexity of these units is 17 h u ge. 18 MR. EISNER: If we can have one person 19 t a lking at a time, the court reporter -- excuse me a 20 s e cond. We've got a court reporter who's got to capture 21 a l l of this. We can't have two and three people 22 t a lking at a time. She's not getting paid enough.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 65 1 MS. MEYERS: Well, I just, you know, I'm 2 t r ying to understand how this process is -- you're 3 a s king us to give on not being able to witness a test 4 o n a unit that's likely to be -- most of them are one5 o f fs. And so our concern is that these units, many of 6 t h em are very unique. 7 I can look through my SKU units of commercial 8 a n d you know, probably the majority of them, I sell one 9 a year of. So because it's going to a specific 10 a p plication and so you're going to pull one of these 11 u n its -- I need to understand, and I need to be 12 c o mfortable if I can't be present for this test, that 13 y o u know how that's going to work. 14 And so I'm asking for clarification on that 15 a n d I -- you know, to get comfortable with where you 16 w a nt me to go, I need some answers. 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: I guess I don't understand 18 w h at you're not comfortable with, because if your unit 19 p o tentially doesn't meet its rating outside of 20 t o lerance, you can be there. What is the exact issue? 21 MS. MEYERS: Well -- 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: If it passes, then what does

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 66 1 i t matter? 2 MS. MEYERS: Well, you know, a lot of these 3 f a ctory installed options that come with these units, 4 a g ain, it goes back to -- I keep using this word, but 5 t h e complexity of the process and is the lab going to 6 k n ow if they get a unit with several factory supplied 7 o p tions, how to correctly setup and test that unit and 8 m e asure it? 9 MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel with Mitsubishi. 10 J u st a clarifying point. So DOE would order the unit. 11 O k ay, so is it possible that a lot of these very 12 c o mplex units are not something that are in stock? 13 MS. HOOTMAN: They're not in stock. 14 MR. DOPPEL: Okay. So would, I mean, would 15 D O E order something -- I mean how would DOE get ahold 16 o f these one-off units? 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: We go to them. We go to you. 18 MR. DOPPEL: Okay, so you would ask the 19 m a nufacturer to produce that unit. 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Uh-hm. 21 MR. DOPPEL: Okay. So then does the 22 m a nufacturer know that this unit is going to be going

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 67 1 t o test? 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Absolutely. 3 MR. DOPPEL: Okay. So then that's kind of 4 n o tification to the manufacturer. You know that -- I 5 t h ink we need to get down to the detail of how this all 6 w o rks, because there's a lot of things being thrown out 7 t h at I think are confusing the issue. 8 And if we, you know, maybe we even need to 9 p u t in there on the paper, that DOE would -- it seems 10 t o me that manufacturers would not have issues with 11 i t ems that are in stock, and that it's just the item -- 12 I ' m just throwing that out as a thought, because that's 13 w h ere it's really coming down to. 14 MS. MEYERS: It depends. 15 MR. DOPPEL: The complexity of the system. 16 MS. MEYERS: If you have a large national 17 a c count that you keep units in stock for, but it's 18 s p ecific to that national account, that specification, 19 t h en you know it would be considered a stock unit, but 20 y o u might sell you know -- 21 MR. DOPPEL: But it's a one-off. 22 MS. MEYERS: Right.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 68 1 MR. DOPPEL: Because it's specific, yeah. 2 MS. MEYERS: Because it's specific to that 3 n a tional account's requirements. 4 MR. DOPPEL: So it seems that, in order to 5 g e t a valid test, I mean it should be something that is 6 a basic system without one-off accessories and whatnot. 7 I s that, so it -- I mean, is that something that we 8 c o uld work out that DOE would order a unit for tests 9 t h at is -- 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think that gets to the next 11 p o int; right? I mean, I don't think that changes the 12 p r ocess of how it works, in my opinion. Because by 13 d e fault, before DOE has determined that anything is 14 i n valid, you get to be onsite, period. So by default, 15 t h at happens before we can even make a determination of 16 a n invalid rating. 17 Now, whether it's the first time or the 18 s e cond time, I'm not clear why it matters, but you get 19 t o be there. You have, we both have to agree there's a 20 v a lid test that occurred, and then a determination is 21 m a de. There are no repercussions until that point. 22 So you know, whether we order a fancy, very

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 69 1 c o mplex system or whether we order a base system, I 2 t h ink it's to the topic that was supposed to be today, 3 w h ich is grouping of models and how we might get to 4 t h at point. But I think that the process still works 5 t h e same, irrespective. 6 I mean, like I said, I think the Department's 7 p o sition at this point is one of two things. If you 8 g u ys want us to allow you the flexibility to declare, 9 o n the certification report, a certain percentage of 10 m o dels that you always want to be there for, then I 11 t h ink we renegotiate the automatic retest. 12 If you would prefer that no matter what 13 f a ils, whether it's a common, complex, or otherwise, no 14 m a tter what potentially fails, not fails, potentially 15 h a s a ratings issue, you always get to do an automatic 16 r e test and be there, no matter what type of unit it is, 17 t h en you keep that option, which is where we ended the 18 d i scussion last week. 19 So I think those are the Department's -- at 20 t h is point. 21 MR. EISNER: Can we focus -- 22 MS. HOOTMAN: Could you have two tests?

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 70 1 C o uld you have a choice in those two tests, in your, in 2 w h atever documentation that we certify -- 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: You do one and you 4 a u tomatically give up your right to a retest, no matter 5 w h at. As we're doing in that certification, we choose, 6 r i ght, you know, I want this one or I want this one? 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: As long as it cannot exceed. 8 MS. HOOTMAN: Cannot exceed what? 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. A certain percentage 10 o f your models' certified. Because we -- I mean, I 11 t h ink the key here is I can't commit to -- 12 MS. HOOTMAN: Trying to figure out what your 13 c o mmitment is. 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, I know that roughly 15 f a ilure rates, while they're going to go, are not going 16 t o be a hundred percent of the models I grab. So the 17 l i miting of what I'm going to do in terms of resources, 18 I ' m not opposed to that. 19 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah, it's more complicated to 20 i m plement, but we can do that. 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: And it's obviously more 22 c o mplicated in our, in whatever documentation that we

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 71 1 h a ve and -- 2 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. 3 MR. EISNER: Yes. 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: But if you were to declare 5 i t , then you would automatically give up your right to 6 a retest. 7 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. 8 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers. I don't 9 k n ow if this would satisfy the manufacturers of the 10 c u stom equipment, but I think it's something -- my 11 s e nse is that DOE could work with it, if it would 12 s a tisfy those manufacturers with this concern, and that 13 i s that you -- these units that we're talking about I 14 b e lieve are custom units. 15 So DOE is going to have to talk with you to 16 g e t the unit. So they're no longer secret, if using 17 t h at word advisedly, if at that point the manufacturer 18 w e re to recommend, as opposed to I guess choose, the 19 D O E gets in your best interest if we have some dialogue 20 o n this and this may be one of those where you want me 21 a t DOE, you would rather have me there on the front end 22 t o minimize their cost of a problem.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 72 1 If you say this is a complex unit. I think 2 y o u're going to want somebody there from the 3 m a nufacturer to set this up. If it's in DOE's court to 4 s a y no, we're going to test it this first time, and 5 t h en we'll give you the automatic opportunity to 6 r e test. At least then we have provided DOE with 7 n o tification that this is a unit that has complex 8 a c cessories, or has special setup needs, where they can 9 d e termine whether they want to take advantage of the 10 m a nufacturer's expertise, or if they want to just move 11 a h ead and test without that. 12 MS. HOOTMAN: This is Jill from Trane. The 13 o n ly problem I have with that is what Karen alluded to, 14 i s doing it right the first time. Chances are, I can 15 s e e where that unit, we got to build another one. 16 B e cause they've now cut it somewhere or done something 17 t o it and we got to build another one. 18 And so now we're back to spending more money. 19 I ' m assuming spending more of the Department's money, 20 w h ich I guess I'm just trying to be a good citizen and 21 I don't think that you need to necessarily do that when 22 y o u could have done it right the first time.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 73 1 MR. EISNER: Again -- 2 MS. HOOTMAN: But as a manufacturer, if I had 3 t h e choice right from the beginning to say, no, I want 4 t o witness test this product family, I understand I 5 w o uld give up the right then for the second retest. So 6 I ' m saying, yes, I want to do it right the first time. 7 P r ovide you one, it's that test, I'm there, you're 8 t h ere, whatever. 9 MS. BARHYDT: So to make sure that we're 10 t a lking about the same thing, if you select model X as 11 b e ing one that you would witness, we're not saying just 12 t h at you would give up a retest on that model X. We're 13 s a ying that on model Y, you also give up that retest. 14 MR. HURST: Why would you do that? 15 MS. HOOTMAN: Why would you do that? Why 16 c o uldn't you just -- why couldn't we, you know, we're 17 u p loading whatever we're going to do, why couldn't we 18 s e lect that by the models? 19 MS. BARHYDT: I'm talking about automatic 20 r e test on all the other 80 percent or whatever. 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: No. 22 MR. RIVEST: (Inaudible) decision about

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 74 1 w h atever they would want to -- my understanding is 2 t h ere's an upfront decision about whether they want to 3 a s sist or not, but they have a limited amount of 4 o p portunities to do that, so that it's 20 percent of 5 t h e time. 6 MS. HOOTMAN: Or something. I can't come up 7 s o mething in my head -- 8 MR. RIVEST: And then that allows the 9 m a nufacturer to determine what the risk factors are for 10 t h at manufacturer, the size and complexity and years of 11 s e rvice may not, or efficiency may not be the right -- 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I agree with that. I 13 t h ink that the Department's okay with that position, 14 s u ch that we keep it to a low number. I mean, such 15 t h at it's like 10 percent of the models you certify or 16 s o mething along those lines. 17 MR. RIVEST: (Inaudible). 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, I mean, something along 19 t h e lines of low -- otherwise, you're asking pretty 20 m u ch for a full commitment and that's something that 21 w e 're not going to do. 22 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah, right.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 75 1 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers, PVI. I just 2 w a nt to clarify that there is still the choice to do it 3 t h e way that's shown on the board. 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, always. That is -- 5 MR. MYERS: Yeah. So if the manufacturer 6 d o esn't opt to do the 10 or 20 percent path, they can 7 d o this. 8 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah, that's what I meant by 9 t h e to paths, from you know as you are certifying two, 10 h a ve you checked the path. You're going to do this 11 p a th or you're going to do, you know. 12 MR. EISNER: I hear the argument that we 13 d o n't want to waste the money on a complex piece of 14 e q uipment when it's first tested. I'm having trouble 15 u n derstanding why the manufacturer, in the materials it 16 w o uld normally submit to DOE before any testing is 17 d o ne, cannot say this is a unique piece of equipment 18 t h at should not be tested without the manufacturer 19 p r esent. 20 We ask that DOE waive the requirement, to put 21 t h em on notice that if they don't waive the 22 r e quirement, they may be wasting their money. But if

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 76 1 t h ey want to, they will have to pay for a retest if you 2 a s k for it. What's wrong with your putting them on 3 n o tice that this would be a waste of money testing 4 w i thout us present? 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's what they want. 6 MS. HOOTMAN: Nothing's wrong with that, but 7 I thought that you were saying you only wanted X amount 8 o f those at that level. 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, that's what they want. 10 W e are saying we will not do that. 11 MR. EISNER: No, you -- the grant of the 12 w a iver is not automatic. The retest is automatic. The 13 g r ant of a waiver is not automatic. You've presented 14 t h em with the information. This is unique because it 15 h a s an economizer which should be detached or should be 16 l e ft in place or whatever. And we request that you 17 d i scuss with us the -- if you don't understand it, in 18 m o re detail, so you don't waste your money. 19 They don't grant a waiver, they're paying for 20 t h e retest. You're giving them an argument. They're 21 l o oking at it and saying, you know, they're right. I 22 d o n't know how to test this piece of equipment. I need

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 77 1 t o have them present to see how it's going to be done. 2 T h ey make the decision before the test, because you put 3 t h em on notice that there's a problem, and they grant 4 y o u a waiver and say you can be present. 5 It's limited only in the sense that they're 6 s a ying, they're right, we'll be wasting our money here 7 i f we don't have them present. 8 MR. BALLO: This is Tim Ballo. If we can 9 j u st negotiate a flat 10 percent or whatever it is 10 f i gure, I'd much rather have that than have a waiver 11 p r ocess that could take up time and resources from the 12 D e partment on a case by case kind of thing. 13 MR. RIVEST: This is Mike Rivest. I wanted 14 t o throw another idea out there as maybe a -- if it's 15 g o ing to be hard to agree on a percentage, but make the 16 c o ncept of that percentage changing over time as 17 e x perience builds with how this program is implemented. 18 S o I don't know if that can be built into regs, but you 19 k n ow so maybe the percentage is higher in the beginning 20 a n d then it evolves to a low number. 21 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah, but again, I guess I'm 22 b a ck to the -- I mean, you can't anticipate when

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 78 1 p o ssibly these new technologies or something come out, 2 t h at I think could warrant the discussions of the 3 w a iver or the -- 4 MR. RIVEST: Right. Got you. Yeah, but I 5 w a sn't implying so -- I wasn't implying that it would 6 g o to zero percent, but merely that initially it would 7 h a ve to be a higher percentage to show that you could 8 f a ll to quote 10 percent or whatever. Because 9 i n itially -- 10 MR. EISNER: Can you raise your voice, Mike, 11 s o the court reporter can hear? 12 MR. RIVEST: It was just a concept I'm 13 t h rowing out there, that it doesn't have to be 10 14 p e rcent at the beginning, 10 percent forever. It can 15 b e 20 percent going to 7. I mean, it's the idea that 16 w e gain experience, the test procedures get written 17 m o re tightly, instructions get conveyed better. 18 We get better communicating how to select 19 u n its. If we're not -- if we have to disconnect the 20 e c onomizer maybe we should just not order that 21 e c onomizer, right. 22 MS. HOOTMAN: Right.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 79 1 MR. EISNER: Jeff? 2 MR. KLEISS: Just to be engaged in this a 3 l i ttle bit more, what -- can you give me an example of 4 a unit that would not require startup by a factory 5 t r ained technician that is not a variable refrigerant 6 f l ow system, that would still be a problem? 7 MS. HOOTMAN: I do not require factory 8 i n stalled setup on any of my equipment. It's an issue 9 w i th my customers. I'm not forcing them to use the 10 f a ctory. They want to be independent contractors. They 11 w a nt to install it. 12 MR. KLEISS: And these are not variable 13 r e frigerant flows -- 14 MS. HOOTMAN: That's correct. 15 MR. KLEISS: Okay. Thank you. 16 MR. EISNER: Other comments, thoughts, as 17 A s hley's typing away? Everybody see the language she's 18 a d ding on the 10 percent? 19 MR. SACHS: The issue with the 10 percent, of 20 a manufacturer's product line is one that Geoff Halley 21 h a s brought to us in a manufacturer who only does one22 o f fs, who only does things that require factory

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 80 1 s t artup. Engineering products is like buying a bridge 2 a n d I'm worried about anastomosing paths. I'm also 3 w o rrying about flat rules that will not work for some 4 p r oduct types. This is why I suggested capacity 5 c r iterion -- 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: And I think we get that; 7 r i ght? I mean, if a unit can't be tested at a third 8 p a rty lab, which are pretty much all the products 9 J e ff's talking about, by default it's on the 10 m a nufacturer's site, they're going to be there. 11 If anything, safety-wise requires, you know, 12 t h at's going to require a factory trained installer. I 13 m e an you get to the same -- you get all the way to 14 m a nufacturer involvement for those two avenues. 15 MR. SACHS: Okay. So is everybody in the 16 r o om comfortable with -- that's covered. 17 MR. WHITNELL: Can you move that up higher on 18 t h e screen so we can -- 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: What? This part? 20 MR. WHITNELL: Yeah. 21 MR. DOPPEL: Also, could you change the font 22 s i ze so -- these old eyes in the back --

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 81 1 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: You need to sit 2 c l oser, Paul. 3 MR. DOPPEL: It wouldn't make any difference. 4 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Put Paul in the front 5 r o w. 6 MR. EISNER: Let the old guys sit up front 7 f r om now on. 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't know what I did 9 t h ere. 10 MR. EISNER: Can you read it now? 11 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Better. 12 MS. HOOTMAN: Ten percent of models in the -- 13 w h at we're we calling these things? 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: I just said in models, and 15 t h en I have that footnote throughout this whole thing 16 t h at once we decide how we're certifying that we deal 17 w i th that, reconcile the limits. 18 MS. MEYERS: So is that 10 percent -- that's 19 w h at I'm saying. Ten percent of the models in that 20 p r oduct class? What were these things called again 21 t h at you -- 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Substantiation and no, this

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 82 1 w o uld be everything. 2 MS. BARHYDT: So if you have a trillion 3 p o ssible SKUs, your 10 percent is calculated off that? 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: We haven't gotten there yet; 5 r i ght? 6 MS. BARHYDT: That's the basic model 7 d i scussion -- 8 MS. HOOTMAN: But that's hard to agree to 9 s o mething when we haven't gotten there, and that was my 10 p o int last time. 11 MR. RIVEST: It's just 10 percent of the 12 m o dels tested, no 10 percent -- 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: They have to do it before -- 14 MR. RIVEST: When they certify. 15 MR. BAUMAN: This is Jeff Bauman from 16 N a tional. I'm with Harvey on this. I mean, I'm not -- 17 I don't think we would ever pick that second option 18 b e cause I'm comfortable with the things we have, but I 19 w o uld think for some manufacturers that would be 100 20 p e rcent, that you can only do 10 percent and some 21 m a nufacturers one percent or zero percent would be 22 f i ne.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 83 1 I'm surprised -- I mean, I'm -- maybe I 2 s h ouldn't throw it out there because -- but, it seems 3 l i ke a -- it's safe to -- you know for somebody who 4 b u ilds you know like a lot of your equipment, Jill, or 5 w h atever, that you might need a lot more than I would 6 t h ink 10 percent. 7 I mean, if you guys are okay with that, 8 y o u've got -- you know, I guess I don't really have a 9 d o g in this fight, but I'm surprised we're not hearing 10 m o re than that. 11 MS. HOOTMAN: This is Jill from Trane. And 12 J e ff, I mean I think that I have a hard time agreeing 13 t o this when I don't know what a definition of models 14 a n d certified mean. It's a different definition for 15 m e . We've already gotten on the basic model or 16 w h atever; we haven't discussed that yet. So that's a 17 d i fferent definition in my mind than possibly the 18 D e partment's. So hard to say yes to that, because I 19 c a n't envision what that 10 percent is; 10 percent of 20 1 0 , or 10 percent of millions. 21 MS. MEYERS: And is that in a calendar year? 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: At any time.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 84 1 MS. MEYERS: So would this stifle -- 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: No. 3 MS. MEYERS: -- innovation? I mean maybe I'm 4 n o t going to roll out this brand new technology because 5 i t 's pretty complicated and it's you know -- 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: And here you would have one 7 t h at you had claimed was innovative technology from 8 t h ree years ago that you could switch over. So this is 9 y o ur discretion. Or you just take the auto retest, 10 b e cause that allows you to be onsite anyway, before an 11 i n valid rating has occurred. 12 MR. EISNER: We still have the right to 13 d i sagree on the definition of model. We realize the 14 v o tes could be different at that time, but -- 15 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah, that's -- 16 MR. EISNER: So you don't agree to the 10 17 p e rcent here, you can say you don't agree to the model 18 d e finition. 19 MS. HOOTMAN: And that's where we got the 20 l a st time, Neil, is I was like, okay, until I 21 u n derstand that, I can't really say yes or no to this. 22 MR. AMRANE: And maybe one option should be

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 85 1 t h at we agree to the language, but then revisit the 10 2 p e rcent when we have a definition of what the model is. 3 MR. EISNER: Part of what I understand is 4 g o ing on is DOE needs to proceed on this rulemaking. 5 T h ey want to get this to the full committee. Let the 6 f u ll committee decide whether to make a recommendation 7 t o the Secretary. We go with this, which would include 8 t h e 10 percent. If we hold off agreement on this, we 9 h o ld off on their being able to work on the rule. 10 T h at's my understanding. 11 MS. HOOTMAN: So therefore, I would have to 12 v o te negative on this, so that I have the right to be 13 a b le to come back and change that. 14 MR. WHITWELL: I think the next thing -- it's 15 i n tended to be discussed during the next 10 days. 16 MR. EISNER: Well, wait a second. I think -- 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: But I will say there's one 18 c a veat there. The argument for discussing basic model 19 c a n't be, I don't have a valid way to come up with a 20 r a ting, because that's what this is. 21 So we can't have a circular argument here. 22 W e 're giving you -- the reason for doing AEDMs first

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 86 1 w a s to say, okay, I have two pathways to come up with a 2 r e ading. I have a valid AEDM, or I have it tested. 3 A n d what this is doing is closing the door on that 4 p r ocess. But then you can discuss, okay, how many 5 r a tings do I have? 6 So if we table the vote on 10 percent, the 7 a s sumption would be going into the basic model 8 d i scussion, or basic model group discussion, or product 9 f a mily discussion or whatever it ends up being, would 10 b e that I have a valid way to rate, period. 11 Because otherwise, you get into a circular 12 l o op, and we can't say we can't vote on nothing, 13 b e cause we will not ever make progress. 14 MS. MEYERS: Well, what will DOE's rules be 15 f o r selecting models that it wants to test? 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, I don't quite 17 u n derstand your question, other than DOE may select any 18 m o del distributed in commerce and verify the equipment 19 p e rformance at any time. 20 MS. MEYERS: Well, does that give DOE the 21 r i ght to say for 2014, the only models I'm going to 22 s e lect are Rheem units so that -- I mean, I just think

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 87 1 w e need some rules on that because it seems -- 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, the statutory 3 l a nguage allows me to pull a unit at any time. So by 4 d e fault -- 5 MS. MEYERS: Well, so that 10 percent would 6 t h en mean, you know. 7 MR. RIVEST: It's on the agenda. 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, verification -- a 9 f o rmalized verification program is on the agenda. It 10 w a s going to be for tomorrow, if we get there. What a 11 D O E verification program is and what -- how it could 12 w i th potential industry program and what -- you know, 13 i t questions percentage of maximum models, targeting, 14 t h ose types of issues. 15 But I think that those are -- I mean yes, we 16 c a n pull a unit at any time if we have a reason to. 17 H a ve we ever only tested a single manufacturer of a 18 g i ven product type? No. We're not completely 19 u n reasonable here, regardless of what you may think. 20 MR. EISNER: Can we have agreement on that? 21 T h at's what I meant. And I'm not -- we still have 22 o t her issues on scope to discuss before we can go on to

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 88 1 t h e things like grouping. 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: So do we -- I guess my 3 q u estion is do we agree with the contents of everything 4 e x cept for the 10 percent number? Are we happy with 5 t h e two options or would we rather there only be the 6 o t her option? Do we need to vote on those two points? 7 MR. STEPHENS: Phil Stephens, HTP. I like 8 t h e way the conversation was heading originally where 9 w e were narrowing down the options about if it's in the 10 l a rgest percent -- whatever percentage of the capacity 11 o f the basic model group or product family; if it's the 12 h i ghest efficiency in the industry within a percentage; 13 i f it's innovative and if the -- if no product in the 14 b a sic model group has been audited previously, then we 15 p u rsue these options. 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: My point of view there is I 17 c o uld never define those four things in a consensus 18 m a nner for every single product category in this room. 19 MR. STEPHENS: Do they have to be the same 20 f o r every product category? 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: No. They wouldn't have to be 22 t h e same but --

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 89 1 MR. STEPHENS: So we really have -- 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: You have to agree that it 3 s h ould be correct for each category. 4 MR. STEPHENS: So we're almost hearing the 5 n e ed for some simultaneous conversations -- 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: We could do that. 7 MS. HARHYDT: Wouldn't that fluctuate over 8 t i me though? I mean, I -- do you really want to tie 9 t h e regulatory scheme to this is innovative technology 10 t o day? 11 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. It 12 w o uld just tie it to innovative at the time that you 13 d i d the audit. 14 MS. BARHYDT: Right, but defining innovative. 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: But we have to define that. 16 H o w would you define that? Top 10 percent of 17 e f ficiency range, and that's it? 18 MR. STEPHENS: There are a lot of different 19 d e finitions -- 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean you just have to draw 21 a line; a line that gets the same regs over time. 22 B e cause as you can see, our regs, to change them takes

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 90 1 s o me time. Just saying. We wouldn't leave it as 2 i n novative technology. Someone please -- I mean unless 3 y o u say the Department can define innovative technology 4 a s it may well. And I'm pretty sure that's not going 5 t o be a consensus. 6 MR. STEPHEN: (Inaudible) would have a great 7 d e finition of innovation, but just to throw something 8 o u t, I actually took the opportunity while I got to 9 t y pe away, components, assemblies, control structures, 10 h a rdware, software, or technology new to the industry 11 m a rket or market segment as identified by patents, 12 l i terature review or industry expertise. 13 All right? That's a lot of words, but -- 14 MR. SACHS: You're hired. 15 MR. STEPHENS: -- it's a complicated -- 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, I just don't want to 17 g e t into fighting over the determination; right? I 18 m e an, what we're trying to do is come up with a 19 p r ocess, so a) you guys have the same expectations of 20 w h at's going to happen as we do. And the process is 21 w e ll-defined existing, you know -- and at the end of 22 t h e day, it's we have a valid test or not and this is

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 91 1 t h e outcome. 2 So I'm open to other ideas, if they could be 3 d i screte characteristics. 4 MR. BAUMAN: Could you scroll so we can see 5 t h at 10 percent language again? 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Maybe. Hang with me. I 7 d o n't know if I have the language exactly right, but 8 t h at's more or less, I think the ... 9 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers. I want to 10 b r ing up what I mentioned before. What we had come 11 c l ose to agreeing to last time, but didn't quite lock 12 d o wn in some people's mind, was an automatic, a very 13 s i mple for DOE and simple for manufacturers, DOE does 14 w h at they want, whatever they need to do on the first 15 t e st, but that test doesn't count until we 16 m a nufacturers are given the automatic opportunity for a 17 w i tnessed test. 18 Everything I've heard up to this point has 19 t a lked about cost to DOE. Yes, there's some 20 m a nufacturing cost to coming in behind that and 21 c l eaning up whatever mess might have been made by the 22 t e st laboratory's installation of that test product,

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 92 1 b u t even that is DOE's cost to bear, because they have 2 a g reed in this proposal to do a second test if there 3 w a s a failure on the first test. 4 And they believe that to be a very small 5 n u mber, 5 percent, 10 percent, maybe even less. So if 6 i t 's just a cost issue that we're trying to address 7 w i th this 10 percent and modern technology and that 8 s o rt of thing, why don't we give that to DOE? I had 9 m a de a suggestion earlier that if we want to provide 10 D O E with input, but not a requirement, to say you may 11 w a nt to rethink testing this on your own, DOE, on this 12 m o del, when it's one that they're having to ask us to 13 b u ild. 14 DOE says, I need one of these models from 15 y o u, schedule, give me a price, however that process 16 w o rks. And we say hmm, on that model we recommend that 17 y o u allow us to be there for the first test. And if 18 w e 're there for the first test, I would agree with 19 t h at's your only test. 20 But voluntary based on input we would provide 21 t o DOE as opposed to a mandate and a reg. And then 22 w e 're done and we can move on, unless there's something

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 93 1 o t her than cost to DOE. I mean yes, we're taxpayers 2 a n d we don't want wasted money, but they don't want 3 w a sted money. 4 So they'll see the error in their way 5 q u ickly, and more of our suggestions to have us there 6 t h e first time. Hey, that's just one test and they've 7 a l ready warned us this might be something we'll mess 8 u p ; maybe we take advantage of it. So they would be 9 l o oking out for the cost. 10 I think DOE would be happy with input, as 11 l o ng as it didn't change what you had to do, and 12 t h ey're going to be looking out for cost. We'll be 13 r e commending when they be cautious about that. Trying 14 t o put in the 10 percent is either going to get into 15 p r oblems with how models are defined, the groups are 16 d e fined. 17 If we start putting in technology, how is 18 t h at defined? Beyond what you were talking about, 19 P h il, those are the items, but then within that item, 20 w h at's new? How do you say that's really new stuff? 21 A n d maybe someone talked about if the requirements 22 c h ange where you're looking at the minimum rate,

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 94 1 n o thing may be new in terms of hardware, but it's a new 2 f a ctor that's being looked at. 3 All that goes away if we go with what we had 4 t e ntatively agreed to last time, with perhaps something 5 i n the reg saying that we have the right when it's, 6 w h en -- if it's a model that they have to ask the 7 m a nufacturer for, that we have the right to suggest to 8 t h em that they should take us there for the first test. 9 And if they do, if they accept our 10 r e commendation, that's the only shot we get is that 11 f i rst test. 12 MR. AMRANE: Karim Amrane, AHRI. But Frank, 13 a s suming the DOE even let you know when DOE will do 14 t h is assessment test, which is not necessarily the 15 c a se, right? 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't know. I don't think 17 h e is assuming that one way or the other. If it's 18 b u ilt to order, we're going to have to because by 19 d e fault we have to get the unit from him. 20 MR. AMRANE: Just to order, but there's 21 p r oduct (inaudible). 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Otherwise, no, we don't

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 95 1 n e cessarily have to let you know. But still, what he's 2 s a ying is instead of going through the pathway of 3 d e fining all these things, which may be very, in some 4 c a ses, hard to define, you still get your rights for 5 r e test. 6 So at the end of the day -- and I'm putting 7 w o rds in your mouth, so please correct me if I'm wrong, 8 b u t leave it to DOE to spend their money effectively, 9 b e cause if we don't, the reality is, we won't have it. 10 MR. AMRANE: Maybe another option could be at 11 D O E's discretion to decide whether the first test 12 s h ould be witnessed by both -- 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, that's what he's 14 s a ying. 15 MR. AMRANE: Yeah. 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: We're than happy as -- I mean 17 I can add as part of the cert requirements up here that 18 y o u may provide information to DOE about models you 19 f e el -- and manufacturers should be onsite. But it's 20 n o t a 100 percent requirement that DOE use that option. 21 A n d maybe that can inform our decision about what 22 m o dels we test, or our decision about whether we decide

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 96 1 t o engage you upfront, or whatever it is. But it would 2 b e ultimately at our discretion, at our requirement. 3 MR. EISNER: Any comments? Jeff has got a 4 c o mment. Others think about whether you want to talk 5 a b out this issue or -- 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: More information is better 7 f o r us. 8 MR. EISNER: I think we have to start 9 n a rrowing the options down and focus our discussion. 10 J e ff, you had a comment? 11 MR. BAUMAN: Yeah, I think as Ashley was just 12 s a ying, as I'm rereading the any additional information 13 i s the regarding test. I mean, I could include any 14 a d ditional information or recommendations to help 15 f a cilitate the test to be provided by manufacturers, 16 w o uld again cover, in my eyes, you know if we want to 17 p u t -- you know, to provide them with that additional 18 i n formation or say we think if you go to test this, so 19 y o u won't have to retest it and potentially waste your 20 m o ney, we have -- there's a facility to be able to do 21 t h at, a way to be able to do that. 22 MR. EISNER: Other thoughts, especially on

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 97 1 t h is last suggestion about amending the paragraph about 2 t h e information provided by the manufacturer? All 3 r i ght. I see two clear options. One is the language 4 t h at was circulated this weekend that we had talked 5 a b out two weeks ago. 6 Second is this paragraph with the 10 percent 7 i n it. Can you bring that back up? 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, sorry. 9 MR. EISNER: And there's this language here 10 f o r -- a manufacturer must select a pathway down to 11 h e re, which I think is new. So why don't we start off 12 b y saying whether anybody objects to adding this 13 l a nguage? We can still consider other languages, the 14 s t uff that's just been talked about, but let's talk 15 a b out this right now. Does anybody object to this, to 16 a decision of the group, that this language should be 17 a d ded to the language that was circulated this weekend? 18 MR. WHITWELL: Sorry, question. 19 C l arification. Bob Whitwell from Carrier. So if the 20 m a nufacturer selects this first option, on the other 90 21 p e rcent of the models, do they still have the second 22 t e st option? Okay.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 98 1 MR. EISNER: And again, we can come back to 2 t h is, but I'd like to focus on which -- we've got a 3 s e cond alternative which is instead of this, put in 4 l a nguage about information the manufacturer can submit 5 a b out what should be done with testing. 6 So I'm not saying we can't go back and forth. 7 I want to see if we have support for this. Do we have 8 m o re -- do we have objections to this? Anybody object 9 t o it? Raise your hand -- 10 MS. BARHYDT: Neil, I think we're going to 11 h a ve to wait a couple minutes, because the two people 12 w h o were most concerned stepped out of the room. 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: And this is the language with 14 t h e 10 percent cut. 15 MR. EISNER: Yeah. We understand this 10 16 p e rcent; at least I understand that the sense is that 17 i f we do agree to add this, the 10 percent is subject 18 t o definition of the group that it's going to affect. 19 A n d that discussion, we hope to have before these two20 d a y meetings, this two-day set of meetings ends. 21 So there's an understanding, and we can put a 22 f o otnote in it that's important to people, that 10

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 99 1 p e rcent of models -- depends a little bit on how we're 2 g o ing to define the groups. Right? 3 MR. HURST: Just a point of clarification. 4 J o hn Hurst from Lennox. It says, initial tests. 5 S h ouldn't that be singular, instead of plural? Initial 6 t e st would be used to make a definitive determination 7 r e garding the -- 8 MR. EISNER: Talking about right here? 9 MR. HURST: Yes. 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. 11 MR. HURST: Just to make sure everybody's 12 c l ear. 13 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers with PVI. I 14 w a nt to make sure of something because I thought I 15 h e ard two different answers. Previously, I thought the 16 a n swer to, if you elect to take the 10 percent of 17 m o dels path, then all models that the manufacturer 18 p r oduces, you would give up the right to automatic 19 r e test. 20 But then the question that was just asked, it 21 s e emed to go the other way. That you would only be 22 g i ving your right on just those 10 percent. That's a

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 100 1 b i g difference. I'd like some better clarity on that. 2 MS. BARHYDT: Ashley says she has resources. 3 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: She's making more all 4 t h e time. 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: My newborn will be onsite 6 w i th you for testing. 7 MR. BAUMAN: This is Jeff from National. I 8 j u st want to say as I'm rereading this, and again I'm 9 y o u know, I don't see having a dog in this race because 10 i t 's not a (inaudible) -- it's going to be -- it may be 11 c h allenging to manufacturers too, because you have to 12 d e clare this when you certify your models. 13 As you go through your models, you have to 14 f i gure out, hey, am I at that 10 percent? I'm going to 15 h a ve to go back and recertify it because I said, okay, 16 t h is is the 10 percent. I don't want that one; I want 17 t h is one. 18 So it's going to somewhat put a burden on 19 m a nufacturers as far as certifying as opposed to Frank 20 s a id earlier, some of the ways that this can be done 21 w i thout trying to add this additional wording. I mean 22 I don't know that I'd object to this, but I don't see a

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 101 1 r e ason to have this paragraph in there, but that's just 2 m e . 3 MR. EISNER: Again, any other comments on 4 t h is? Do we have any objections -- first, let me ask if 5 a n ybody wants to abstain on this vote? All right. I 6 s e e no hands raised to -- 7 MR. MYERS: I'm going to abstain, because I 8 j u st can't support -- 9 MS. HOOTMAN: Your little footnote it's not 10 i n there, but your little footnote that once we 11 u n derstand what models or -- 12 MR. EISNER: Yeah, I said -- maybe you were 13 o u t of the room. I said we can add a footnote, if you 14 w a nt, or we can just assume that everybody understands 15 t h is is subject to further discussion. 16 MR. SACHS: Why don't we just put the word 17 m o dels in quotes and I think that'll serve to symbolize 18 t h e footnote. 19 MR. EISNER: Okay, that'll be fine. 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: The footnote's like 10 times 21 t h roughout the document. 22 MR. EISNER: Again, anybody want to register

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 102 1 a n abstention? You don't have to. Okay. The names of 2 t h e people abstaining? And again, I don't think we 3 n e cessarily have to use names in reports, just so 4 t h ere's no confusion, the report to the full committee 5 c a n say we had two abstentions. 6 All right. Are there any objections to 7 a d ding this language to the existing language that 8 A s hley circulated this weekend? Okay, if there are no 9 o b jections, we have an agreement, we have consensus to 10 a d d this language. Does anybody think we ought to add 11 o t her language to the paragraph about the information 12 t h at the industry provides, in addition to this? 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's one or the other. 14 MS. MEYERS: And what was your question 15 a g ain? 16 MR. EISNER: There's been some discussion 17 a b out adding language to the paragraph above this, I 18 t h ink, the bullet above this. 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: So the other option on the 20 t a ble is that you provide the Department with 21 i n formation as part of your certification report, the 22 r e quest that any model be witness tested upon first

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 103 1 t e sting. Any model, 10 percent, 20 percent, 30 2 p e rcent, will ultimately, it would be left to the 3 D e partment to use its discretion. 4 MR. RIVEST: That's over and above this, 5 r i ght? 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's separate from this. 7 MR. EISNER: This can be -- 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: We do one or the other. The 9 D e partment would not do both. 10 MR. BAUMAN: This is Jeff from National. Why 11 w o uldn't you be willing to do both? Because in this 12 c a se, it would just be -- we would request but you 13 c a nnot pay attention to any of them. Are you 14 n e gotiating with me, Ashley? 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: I hope so. 16 MR. BAUMAN: I mean, I would think it would 17 b e your discretion, but it doesn't obligate you to do 18 a n ything, that we can provide recommendations. If you 19 w a nt to ignore it, then you just ignore it. It's not 20 a s king you to do anything. It's just giving a set -- 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's setting up an 22 e x pectation.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 104 1 MR. RIVEST: So you could give your 2 r e quirements and your recommendations or just your 3 r e commendations? 4 MR. BAUMAN: I'd say, what I've heard is 5 t h ere's recommendations, and there's recommendations 6 a n d requirements. There's requirements for safety or 7 t h ings like that, that this is how the unit has to be 8 t e sted, right? Because of cost concerns, whatever, you 9 m i ght have recommendations that are -- 10 MR. RIVEST: I'm sorry, I was using the word 11 r e quirement as in we -- the manufacturer requires that 12 1 0 percent, these 10 percent, be witness tested 13 i m mediately. 14 MR. BAUMAN: Right. 15 MR. RIVEST: And we recommend that these 16 a d ditional products be witness tested, but that would 17 b e up to DOE to decide if -- 18 MR. BAUMAN: Yeah. And I think I'm -- Jeff 19 f r om National again. I think I'm doing the same, sort 20 o f saying the same thing. I'm just saying that 21 e v erything outside that 10 percent, basically 100 22 p e rcent, you can recommend to DOE that you do that,

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 105 1 w h ether that's -- 2 MR. RIVEST: That wouldn't be very helpful 3 t h ough, 100 percent. 4 MR. BAUMAN: Well, but you -- we could, I 5 m e an not that -- but for some people's products, what 6 I ' m hearing might be 100 percent that they would 7 r e commend. Doesn't mean you're going to do 100 percent, 8 o r it doesn't mean you're going to do any percent in 9 t h at case. 10 But I think the concerns that are being 11 d i scussed are financial and you know, to make the test 12 s m oother the first time or whatever, we can make a 13 r e commendation that, you know, you recommend somebody 14 f r om the factory be there, in order to get the test set 15 u p right, for reasons -- you know, whatever reasons. 16 And you can decide to either look at those 17 a n d consider them and change your decision or you can 18 c h oose to ignore them. That's not -- to me, the 10 19 p e rcent becomes the -- required that you're saying yes, 20 w e will let you say this 10 percent is going to be -- 21 h a ve somebody there. This other is just at DOE's 22 d i scretion.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 106 1 MR. WHITWELL: Bob Whitwell from Carrier. 2 J u st -- maybe I can help with the difference between 3 w h at's here and what's further in the language. The 4 t e st procedure requires that the product be set to run 5 a t a certain static pressure, for example. 6 And when these are applied in the field, the 7 i n staller sets the fan speed, for example, or changes 8 p u lleys or whatever, depending on how the fan is 9 d r iven, to meet the requirements for his building, 10 w h ich is completely different than what it would be if 11 y o u were testing for the test procedure. 12 So an example here might be instructions to 13 t h e test laboratory on how to set the product, so it 14 c a n be run according to the test procedure. It might 15 n o t require the manufacturer to be there, but you might 16 w a nt to provide some instruction to help the test 17 m a nufacturer -- or the test laboratory to be able to 18 s e tup the equipment to run for the test procedure. 19 MR. BAUMAN: And really maybe the 20 r e commendation, the part that's a recommendation is 21 j u st recommending you have the option of recommending 22 s o mebody from the factory be there. You know the rest

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 107 1 i s really instructions on how to do the test right. 2 Y o u have the ability to recommend a witness test 3 d o esn't mean you -- and with some reasoning behind 4 t h at, other than just saying we want everything to be 5 a n d that you can consider that -- 6 MR. RIVEST: That would be very helpful in 7 t h e notes. 8 MR. EISNER: I thought the language already 9 i n cluded the requirement that you submit information 10 t h at was necessary for the testing facility to run it 11 c o rrectly. The second part was if you think that you 12 n e ed to be present, make your argument here and give a 13 r e commendation. 14 MR. BAUMAN: Is that in the wording already? 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: No, I don't think it is. 16 MR. BAUMAN: Okay. I'm sorry. That's what - 17

- yeah, that's what I was -- 18 MR. EISNER: This was already there, the 19 q u estion's whether to add something saying you can make 20 a recommendation and explain why the manufacturer needs 21 t o be there for the test. Any discussion on that? 22 T h is would be in addition to the language we just

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 108 1 a d ded. 2 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers of PVI. I 3 t h ink that the clause that you just added, Ashley, I 4 t h ink may be in the wrong spot. This is the clause 5 s a ying if the lab needs more information. At least 6 w h at I was getting at is that when we find out that a 7 m o del is going to be used, that we would be able to 8 m a ke these recommendations. 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: So you would do it at the 10 o u tset? 11 MR. MYERS: Right. Not just if the lab 12 n e eded more information. 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: You would do it as part of 14 t h e certification testing? 15 MR. MYERS: Right. 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Which is what this paragraph 17 a d dresses, right? 18 MS. BARHYDT: This information would be 19 p r ovided during -- this paragraph addresses information 20 t o be provided during the certification process. 21 MS. DANE: This is Mary from Traulsen. 22 D o esn't that converge to kind of keep track of the

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 109 1 i n formation we give you and things like that, too? 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: This is in our database. I 3 d o n't -- okay. If you guys want to go through -- you 4 a r e allowed to do it. 5 MS. DANE: And this doesn't in any way make 6 u s waive our rights to secondary, automatic test, if we 7 c h oose to send extra information at the time of 8 c e rtification? 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: No. 10 MS. DANE: Okay. 11 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. Does 12 t h e information -- 13 MR. EISNER: Could you raise your voice? 14 MR. STEPHENS: Yes, Phillip Stephens, HTP. 15 D o es the information we provide become public at any 16 p o int? 17 MS. BARHYDT: That will depend. I mean 18 t h ere's another law that applies to what can be 19 w i thheld. We can discuss whether or not DOE would 20 p r oactively make that information available to the 21 p u blic, but if it were to be requested, whether or not 22 w e have the authority to withhold it is a different

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 110 1 i s sue that we can't really negotiate. 2 MR. EISNER: Any other discussion on this 3 p o int? Okay, let's have a vote on whether we should add 4 t h is language here, the last two sentences. Anybody 5 w a nt to abstain on this vote? And again, it's 6 d i scretionary, as I read it, on the part of what the 7 m a nufacturer submits; it's discretionary on what DOE 8 d o es with it. 9 Basically, it's an opportunity to put them on 10 n o tice if they need -- 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Can we have a five-minute 12 b r eak? Can we have a break? 13 MR. EISNER: Yeah, we can take a five-minute 14 b r eak. 15 (Brief recess.) 16 MR. EISNER: Can everybody take their seat, 17 p l ease? Can everyone return to their seat, please? 18 A n y new comments as a result of the break? 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. So I think -- so the 20 D e partment has a concern with adding the last two 21 s e ntences. Specifically we're concerned that it's 22 g o ing to provide an unequal playing field. That people

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 111 1 a r e going -- you're going to have certain manufacturers 2 t h at are going to list all models that need to be 3 t e sted, where a manufacturer needs an onsite for 4 t e sting and using different rationales and applying 5 t h em differently. 6 We're going to have other manufacturers that 7 m a y apply it very narrowly, and this isn't a good 8 d e finitive choice for the Department. So I don't think 9 t h e Department's in favor at this time of adding either 10 o f those sentences. 11 We do think that the manufacturers should 12 p r ovide all information about testing a product, or 13 s e tup, you know, such -- the information like the 14 s t atics of setting the pulleys, et cetera, et cetera. 15 That that's very valuable and insightful 16 i n formation. But as far as making a recommendation for 17 o n site testing, that's not something we support at this 18 t i me. 19 MR. EISNER: Reactions, comments? 20 MS. BARHYDT: And you'd still have the other 21 p r ovision -- 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: You would still have your

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 112 1 o t her provision and you would need to use your 10 2 p e rcent -- 3 MS. BARHYDT: For specifying -- 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Accordingly. 5 MR. EISNER: Any other comments? Any 6 r e sponses? Reactions? Karim? 7 MR. AMRANE: I think regarding the 10 8 p e rcent, would it be better to table the discussion 9 u n til we know what the model is, until we define what 10 t h e model is, and then maybe agree to that -- go back 11 a n d decide on the 10 percent? 12 MR. EISNER: The 10 percent, I think we had 13 a g reed to put it in quotes, to show that it still 14 n e eded a definition. 15 MR. AMRANE: So we can go back and change 16 t h at? 17 MR. EISNER: That is my understanding of 18 w h ere we are. 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: I put models in quotes, so 20 y e ah. 21 MS. HOOTMAN: This is Jill at Trane. Ashley, 22 o n that point that you're taking out of there, I

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 113 1 u n derstand what you're getting at. I think that we 2 s t ill may have, I guess the Department should know, 3 t h at I think that I see a situation, could be kind of 4 c o mmon situation, in the future where we, as 5 m a nufacturers, will have to file waivers in the DOE 6 t e st procedure. 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Absolutely. This doesn't 8 p r eclude that. You should be filing waivers if you 9 d o n't think the test procedure accurately depicts -- if 10 y o u think that, you know -- like I said I think on the 11 d a y one, if there's a test procedure issue and/or 12 t e sting reveals a test procedure issue, that's 13 s o mething we need to deal with. 14 And I have no doubt that will come up plenty. 15 S o this does not preclude you at all. And just to be 16 c l ear, when I say that -- you know, I use the term, the 17 D O E test procedure or the applicable DOE test 18 p r ocedure, throughout the whole document, just because 19 o f my shorthand. 20 But that means -- if we've approved a waiver 21 f o r you, that is the applicable DOE test procedure. 22 W h atever the applicable DOE test procedure is the one

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 114 1 y o u use, waiver or otherwise. But you would need to 2 g e t a waiver approved, before it could be used. 3 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. Before it even go to 4 c o mmerce. 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: In theory. 6 MS. HOOTMAN: Because if what, I guess what 7 I ' m envisioning here is some of the things that I was 8 t a lking about where there's new technologies coming 9 o u t. Test procedure in AHRI has changed, but statutory 10

- - you have not picked through -- the Department hasn't 11 p i cked it up yet. 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: You can always request the 13 w a iver. Absolutely. 14 MS. HOOTMAN: And so it's in that catch-22 15 t h at I talk about, so I can envision that there could 16 b e quite a few waivers out there -- 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. 18 MS. HOOTMAN: -- based on that fact that it's 19 n o t caught up. And so am I correct that it would have 20 t o be before it's put in commerce? 21 MS. BARHYDT: And when we select units for 22 t e st that are subject to a test procedure waiver, we

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 115 1 a l ways provide a copy of the waiver to the lab. Make 2 s u re the lab is aware of the fact that that model is 3 s u bject to waiver, and we work with the lab to make 4 s u re that they understand that test procedure waiver. 5 W e routinely test products that have waivers. And so 6 . . . 7 MR. EISNER: Other concerns? Other issues? 8 O k ay, let's talk about voting on whether we should add 9 t h is language. These two sentences that the Department 10 h a s just said they object to -- 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: I took them out, but -- 12 MS. BARHYDT: You took them out, because -- 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: I did, because the Department 14 o b jects. You couldn't vote. Sorry. I mean, I just 15 a s sumed the Department objecting -- 16 MR. EISNER: Anybody want to abstain on this 17 v o te? Everybody understand what the issue is? Should 18 w e add these two sentences to the existing language? 19 A n ybody object besides the Department of Energy? Okay. 20 I t does not pass. Any concerns? Any discussions? 21 A n ything else you want to talk about? Yes. 22 MR. STARR: Louis Starr, NEEA. You know, if

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 116 1 t h e Department of Energy's not comfortable with it, I 2 d o n't see that it makes a lot of sense. If they see 3 r e gulatory problems with it or loopholes, I don't 4 u n derstand -- if the job here is to put a set of rules 5 t o gether to have loopholes, that seems 6 c o unterproductive. 7 It seems if we can't address Ashley's concern 8 w h y this shouldn't be a concern, then I don't see why 9 t h ose sentences should be in there. So if people are 10 v o ting for it, I need to hear why they're voting for 11 i t . At least for me. 12 MR. EISNER: It does not go forward, because 13 t h ere are more than two objections. 14 MR. STARR: Right. 15 MR. EISNER: Anybody have any other comments, 16 s u ggestions, additions they'd like to see? Yes? 17 MR. THARP: Not on this topic. I do have 18 a n other question on Ashley's notes. 19 MR. EISNER: Okay, I think we have others. 20 I t 's 12:30, so I'd like to put to a vote whether you 21 g u ys would like to go to lunch now and start fresh in 22 a n hour? Anybody object? Anybody abstain? All right,

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 117 1 s e e you all back here about 1:30. 2 MR. SACHS: Before you move out, the handout, 3 t h ere's -- gives some thoughts on lunch spots. I'll 4 h a ng here for a few minutes. My own personal 5 p r eference is down at the food court are Moe's Burritos 6 a n d some are southwestern things, and pretty good gyro 7 n e xt to that stand, if you're into lamb. 8 MR. MYERS: And Five Guys hamburgers. 9 MR. SACHS: And Five Guys hamburgers is very 10 p o pular. Your only problem there is if the -- 11 MR. MYERS: Staying awake after eating it. 12 MR. SACHS: It's in this building. Go down 13 t o the second floor and start walking that way. 14 MR. MYERS: Towards 13th? 15 MR. SACHS: Towards 13th. 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: So after we get back, we're 17 m o ving on to what's in the PowerPoint; right? 18 MR. EISNER: Can we have everybody's 19 a t tention so we agree where we're starting. My 20 u n derstanding is we still have to go through the rest 21 o f the scope issues that people raised over the 22 w e ekend. Then we have to go one scope that remained.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 118 1 T h en we get into -- 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, the one scope issue that 3 r e mained is the beginning of the PowerPoint 4 p r esentation. 5 MR. EISNER: Yes. So everybody understands 6 t h at. We'll start with the issues that were raised 7 o v er the weekend. Then we'll go to the slide show, the 8 l a st remaining scope issue. And then by tomorrow, 9 w e 'll have all the stuff finished for the rest of the 10 r u les, right? Anybody paying attention? 11 MS. BARHYDT: I don't think so, because there 12 w a s no reaction. 13 (Whereupon, the meeting was recessed from 14 12:30 p.m. until 1:37 p.m.) 15 MR. EISNER: The first thing we want to 16 d i scuss the client standards document that reflected a 17 s u mmary of what we agreed to at the last meeting. In 18 a d dition to the fix we made today, there were some 19 o t her issues that were raised. I'd like to clarify 20 t h em before we go on to the last scope issue. You want 21 t o tell us what you got? 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, I'm going to ask him,

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 119 1 d o you want to raise those two or do you -- are we 2 s u fficient in our discussion offline? 3 MR. KLEISS: (Inaudible). 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: What? 5 MR. KLEISS: The (inaudible) on tolerances. 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: So we're good on that; right? 7 MR. KLEISS: We're good on that. 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Do you want to talk about the 9 o t her one? 10 MR. KLEISS: The footnotes? 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. 12 MR. KLEISS: Sure. Okay. 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: So Jeff suggested edits to 14 f o otnotes for this one, and it was this footnote, right 15 J e ff? Off the top of my head? 16 MR. KLEISS: Yes. 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Do you have your changes off 18 t h e top of your head, or do you want me to find them? 19 MR. KLEISS: Would you please find them? 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, one second. Okay. So 21 o r iginally we had, "If a manufacturer uses different 22 A E DMs corresponding to different validation classes,

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 120 1 t h e same single unit test of a particular model may be 2 a p plied to substantiate separate AEDMs across 3 v a lidation classes." 4 And I think the idea here was that basically 5 i f you use -- I'm just going to make up something, but 6

- - and this is actually, it applies to this one as well 7 a s the water heaters. But basically if you had a unit, 8 t h at spanned multiple classes, so for example, a unit 9 t h at fell into both of these classes -- to the extent 10 t h ey're not mutually exclusive, but you used AEDM-A for 11 t h e first one, and AEDM-B for the second one, that you 12 c a n use test result from the same unit and apply it to 13 b o th, without having to have -- that same model -- 14 w i thout having to have like an additional model. 15 That was the -- I thought was what you were 16 g o ing for there. So his suggested change was, "A 17 m a nufacturer may use a single AEDM covering thermal 18 e f ficiency for both storage, water heaters, and 19 i n stantaneous." And we can change that, but that 20 d o esn't allow you to use test results from a singular 21 m o del across multiple substantiation classes if you use 22 A E DMs, the multiple AEDMs.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 121 1 So that doesn't -- I mean, you can by default 2 u s e -- so the way we have defined an AEDM, it's at the 3 m a nufacturer's discretion if they want to use a single 4 A E DM to rate different products that use different 5 d e scriptors, et cetera, et cetera. 6 We haven't isolated that anywhere. So to me, 7 y o ur footnote is redundant by explicitly saying a 8 m a nufacturer may use a single AEDM covering thermal 9 e f ficiency for both storage and instantaneous. You can 10 u s e a single AEDM for all water heaters, period. Or 11 y o u can use 10, or you can use 2; we do not define a 12 m i nimum or maximum or -- it's just at the discretion of 13 y o u, depending on what you're comfortable with. 14 So if you want -- so his proposed changes, 15 " T he manufacturer may use a single AEDM covering 16 t h ermal efficiency for both storage and water heaters." 17 W e can make explicit here if the group feels it's 18 n e cessary. It is allowed by default is the way I read 19 t h is anyway. You can use across the board, period. 20 But what this takes away, if you replace that 21 s e cond footnote right there, is the ability to use one 22 m o del that may span two of those classes to

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 122 1 s u bstantiate multiple AEDMs. 2 MR. KLEISS: The point where I was trying to 3 m a ke sure that we were clear on, which is that when you 4 h a ve a family of products and some are classified based 5 o n the calculation as instantaneous, and some are 6 c l assified as storage but they're in the same family or 7 h a ve a very similar efficiency graph, that you could 8 u s e one storage type and one instantaneous type or 9 w h atever and validate that. 10 But what you're saying is that that is 11 a l ready allowable. That one -- 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: No. 13 MS. BARHYDT: More than one. 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes and no. The AEDM can 15 e s timate the performance of both types. This seems to 16 s a y that -- what is it -- 17 MS. BARHYDT: This is the same single unit 18 t e st can be used in multiple ones of those, so -- 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. If -- but not if he 20 t a kes that out. 21 MS. BARHYDT: Oh, okay. 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: So if you leave that second

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 123 1 f o otnote in, you can use the same single unit test to 2 s u bstantiate different AEDMs across classes. That 3 a l lows you to do what you want with that footnote. If 4 y o u take it out though, you can't. 5 MR. KLEISS: Okay. I'm not sure what a 6 s i ngle -- 7 MS. BARHYDT: You have a test of a single 8 u n it and you're using those test results to create your 9 m o dels for multiple validation classes. And I don't 10 k n ow how the engineering, if that would work, but ... 11 MR. KLEISS: Okay. And validation means? 12 MS. BARHYDT: It's the gas-fired water 13 h e aters and hot water supply boilers less than 10 14 g a llons gas- fired. Each one of those is a validation 15 c l ass. 16 MR. KLEISS: See and I'm not needing to cross 17 t h ose classes. 18 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 19 MR. KLEISS: Because I have -- as an example, 20 y o u have a unit that has a water heater that has more 21 t h an 10 gallons of storage. However, based on the 22 r a tio of the storage to the input, it could be

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 124 1 c l assified as instantaneous or storage, even though all 2 o f them had more than 10 gallons of water. 3 So those are different product classes as 4 d e fined by DOE. I just wanted to make sure that the 5 A E DM can still cross those product classes. 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. There's no restriction. 7 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah, there's no -- we didn't 8 p u t any restrictions on the AEDMs. The original 9 p r oposal did have restrictions, but none of that was 10 a d opted in all of our discussions previously. 11 MR. KLEISS: Okay. I just want to make sure 12 t h at the language that we adopt is clear -- 13 MS. BARHYDT: Sufficiently broad. 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's as broad as can be. 15 MR. KLEISS: Okay. 16 MR. EISNER: Would it help if they agreed to 17 p u t in the preamble the example you gave and say for 18 e x ample it would do that in this case. You could put 19 i n parentheses -- 20 MR. KLEISS: Well, to provide certainty, 21 y e ah, that would be nice. 22 MR. MYERS: Use the phrase instantaneous and

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 125 1 s t orage which is not in the description. 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, he just wants to make 3 s u re you can use one AEDM to estimate, once he has it 4 v e rified or whatever, that he can then apply it across 5 t h e board. And the answer is yes, it's at the 6 m a nufacturer's discretion, how you apply your AEDM to 7 m u ltiple product classes or equipment classes or 8 p r oducts or families or types or technologies. 9 MS. MEYERS: So an AEDM can cross different 10 t e st procedures? 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, we have no -- yeah, we 12 h a ve -- 13 MR. KLEISS: In this particular case, though, 14 t h e test procedure is the same. 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. 16 MR. KLEISS: If there is an additional test 17 f o r storage type water heaters that -- well, I'm sorry. 18 I n this case it's the same test procedure for the 19 d i fferent product classes. 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: There is no restriction on 21 t h e AEDM. You can one AEDM for every single thing you 22 m a ke if you are confident, as long as you have the

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 126 1 m i nimum number of distinct models validated for it. 2 MR. STEPHENS: A clarification on this point 3 I ' ve thought of over for the past two weeks, if we have 4 a n AEDM, and we have options for our product lines, we 5 h a ve a lot of derivative models; would those derivative 6 m o dels -- would it be sufficient to identify something 7 s i milar to a (inaudible) as in band curves to come up 8 w i th individual AEDMs for each one of those categories? 9 MS. BARHYDT: All up to you. 10 MR. STEPHENS: All up to us? Okay. 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: As long you have the minimum 12 n u mber of distinct model tests, that's the only 13 r e quirement we added in here and that you maintain 14 t o lerance. 15 MS. MEYERS: And just one more question to 16 m a ke sure I understand. So the minimum number of -- 17 t h at have to be tested, and that's just to substantiate 18 t h e AEDM, but not the test procedures that the AEDM may 19 b e covering. So if your AEDM covers, let's say four 20 d i fferent test procedures, is it still just two models 21 o r is it eight models? 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: It depends on the number of

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 127 1 t h e substantiation classes those four test procedures 2 c o ver? So for -- I mean, you're obviously going to pick 3 u p more than two, because they pick up, you know we 4 h a ve singular test procedures for each of these. So it 5 w o uldn't be two, right? But it would be whatever falls 6 i n to these categories. 7 MS. MEYERS: So -- okay. So it's the number 8 o f models per test procedure. 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, they're not all 10 e x clusive. 11 MS. MEYERS: Per validation class. 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Per validation class, right. 13 MS. MEYERS: Okay. All right. Got it. 14 T h ank you. 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, so the maximum you 16 c o uld have are -- I don't know; add that up, but I 17 t h ink it's like 16 or 18. 18 MS. MEYERS: Okay. 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: Or the minimum number, I'm 20 s o rry, if you make proposal. You could always to do 21 m o re if you wanted to. 22 MR. KLEISS: So can we go back down to that

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 128 1 f o otnote? So when you say a single unit test, are we 2 s a ying that for one of those validation classes the 3 m i nimum number of distinct models to be tested is two 4 m o dels? What then does that footnote saying a single 5 u n it test, how does that relate to the two models? 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: So this is to do a single 7 t e st on each model; right? So that two models 8 r e presents two distinct tests; one test on each of the 9 u n its. One unit of each model. 10 MR. KLEISS: Okay. 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right? And so if, for 12 e x ample, you had a gas-fired water heater that was 20 13 g a llons that is also an oil-fired water heater that is 14 2 0 gallons -- I'm just making things up -- but if you 15 h a d that as a single product and you were to test that 16 o n e unit, you could use that test result in your two 17 m o del minimum for gas-fired validation and your two 18 m o del minimum for your oil-fired. That's what that 19 f o otnote means, if you have one of those. 20 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, another example would be 21 f o r a commercial HVAC, we could use the same exact unit 22 f o r our commercial furnace and for the cooling side;

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 129 1 r i ght? Same exact thing. 2 MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs. We spent a lot of 3 t i me this morning talking about innovation and as 4 t h at's rolled around in my brain, I have a naquestion, 5 w h ich is basically using two models assumes that we can 6 d o linear interpolation between them. But we haven't 7 c o nstrained this at all, so those two models could be a 8 v e ry similar capacity, for example, with a lot of 9 e x trapolation. 10 Or we could have innovative technologies that 11 j u st hypothetically dual evaporators that feed back 12 i n to the same (inaudible), with dual modulating 13 c o mpressors. And it's not clear to me that all of these 14 p o ssible configurations will react linearly throughout 15 t h eir operating range. And there seems an implicit -- 16 a n explicit, no an implicit assumption of linearity in 17 t h e calibration of these AEDMs. 18 MS. BARHYDT: I don't think it's an 19 a s sumption that it's linear. 20 MR. SACHS: If it's not linear I need at 21 l e ast three. 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: No.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 130 1 MS. BARHYDT: What we're saying is that it's 2 u p to the manufacturer to determine how much they need 3 t o test to model their product line. 4 MR. SACHS: Okay. 5 MS. BARHYDT: So if the manufacturer, in 6 o r der to have a better model, determines that they need 7 t o test 10, then they test 10. We're saying that at an 8 a b solute minimum, they have to test two. 9 MR. SACHS: Okay. That's very helpful, 10 L a ura, and I apologize for the film before my eyes. 11 MR. EISNER: Okay, any other discussion? 12 E v erybody's happy with this particular situation right 13 n o w, otherwise known as you agree? 14 MR. BAUMAN: We're talking about the number 15 o n e -- this part strictly? 16 MR. EISNER: The footnote, yeah. 17 MR. BAUMAN: Okay. 18 MR. EISNER: And I want to ask if there are 19 a n y other issues. Are there other issues on the paper 20 t h at Ashley circulated? 21 MR. SACHS: Yes, there is. 22 MR. EISNER: Okay.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 131 1 MR. SACHS: I'm about to get all of Hades 2 o p ened up to receive me, but an issue that is of at 3 l e ast theoretical concern is that we've inherited a lot 4 o f the culture around this product performance from 5 e a rlier voluntary programs by trade associations, and 6 t h at includes the concept of the tolerance band. 7 And I've asked Tim, acting as counsel, where 8 i n the law it says that I can approve for sale and 9 c o mmerce a 12.35 SEER air conditioner when the law says 10 1 3 . And we went a long way by getting the one-sided 11 c o nfidence bands saying you can exceed performance by 12 a s much as you want to. 13 But as I understand this, we are still saying 14 t h at DOE will approve as compliant, a product that 15 t e sts out at 95 percent of the legal minimum. And I'm 16 n o t sure that we all -- and again, we've got 20 years 17 o f precedent about this, but I'm not sure that we all 18 o u ght to be comfortable with this going forward. 19 MR. EISNER: Can you tell me, when you say 20 l a w, are you talking about statute or regulation? 21 MR. SACHS: Statute. 22 MR. EISNER: The statute does not, you're

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 132 1 s a ying, provide -- 2 MR. SACHS: I'm sorry. The statute -- for 3 s o me products the statute prescribed minimum 4 p e rformance levels, and they do not prescribe 5 t o lerances. We've since then had DOE regulatory cycles 6 t h at have also set minimum standards higher than those 7 t h at were in the original law. 8 And again, if I understand correctly, there's 9 n o discussion of tolerance bands in the regs. Thou 10 s h alt not sell, in commerce in the United States, a 11 c e ntral air conditioning system rated at less than SEER 12 1 3 , not 13 1 2 .35. 14 So I think this is a sixth floor issue, or 15 w h atever it's called up there, but I just want to go on 16 r e cord that I'm not completely comfortable with the 17 c a rryover of the tolerance band concept to allow 18 p r oducts that do not meet statutory language in 19 c o mmerce. 20 MS. BARHYDT: Harvey, so the -- we've 21 d i scussed it so far only in the context of the accuracy 22 o f the AEDMs, and the first topic for today was sort of

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 133 1 t h e consequences of ratings being off. So if we can 2 t a ble that and it may come up in the context of 3 d i scussing the ratings on the AEDMs, but your concern 4 i s noted. But I think that the five percent that we've 5 d i scussed thus far is only within the simulation. 6 MR. SACHS: Point well taken and I wanted to 7 r a ise this as a general issue and I'll now cower while 8 K a rim beats me up. 9 MR. SACHS: I'm used to it. Please Karim. 10 MR. THARP: This is Rusty and this is sort of 11 t h e opposite of what Harvey was going to say, because 12 t h e stuff that's come out even in the -- since the last 13 t w o week meeting, the meeting two weeks ago, I 14 d i scussed -- commented this to Ashley earlier, we see a 15 l a rger standard deviation of test results of heat pumps 16 i n the heating mode, than we do the cooling mode. 17 So I was going to suggest that we might want 18 t o revisit the table on page 6 of the -- I think it was 19 t h e verification tolerances, where it's basically five 20 p e rcent everywhere, except 10 percent on IER and PAR 21 f a ctor I believe it was. 22 And partially, I think part of that is test

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 134 1 u n certainty, but -- and we see a larger band of 2 s t andard deviations for heat pumps in the heating mode 3 t h an the cooling mode, and that was one of the topics 4 o f discussion at the recent AHRI meeting. 5 MR. SACHS: I'm certainly sensitive to that, 6 R u sty, and certainly we've heard similar things with 7 r e spect to the standby losses for storage water 8 h e aters, a variety of other questions. And there's no 9 q u estion that the test methods are pretty awkward at 10 t i mes, and it's just a question of where responsibility 11 f o r product integrity lies. 12 MR. THARP: I guess in response to that, the 13 i n dustry is putting a lot of effort into trying to 14 r e ally, truly understand where that variation comes 15 f r om and trying to -- the route is for year and a half 16 n o w, the engineering committee have been meeting on a 17 t w o-week basis, trying to put together procedures and 18 t o help in some of that area that's shared. 19 MR. SACHS: Good and for those who haven't 20 b e en involved in water heaters, every time I see him 21 C h arlie Adams of A.O. Smith reminds me he's not at all 22 s u re that 0.9 is any different from 0.93 on electric

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 135 1 w a ter heater testing that has legal ramifications to 2 i t . So it's not an easy issue, but I think at some 3 p o int in our discussions, we'll want to be sensitive to 4 t h e ramifications. 5 MR. EISNER: Okay. Other comments? 6 MS. HOOTMAN: It's Jill from Trane. Harvey, 7 I mean I understand and I would agree that we don't 8 w a nt to go out and say, broad brush, we condone ratings 9 t h at are less than the federal minimums. But remember 10 h e re, we're really talking about one unit that is a 11 v e rification test and so it's hard to say a suspect 12 p o pulation on one in one test knowing what I know about 13 t h e variation and everything, is really indicative of a 14 w h ole problem. 15 So I mean, I do think we need to get to that, 16 b e cause I do think that there is shall we say, 17 w h atever, a certification, an enforcement, you know, 18 t h ere is a repeat or showing something kind of a way 19 t h at whatever we get with product family, product 20 m o del, model discussion, is truly not performing to the 21 f e deral minimums. 22 MR. SACHS: And Jill, I appreciate that. I

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 136 1 t h ink what I'm hearing is that we need to allow some 2 v a riance between this nail in the counter which is the 3 t e st result and the AEDM. But on the other hand, the 4 A E DM's calibration has an enormous amount of leverage 5 d o wnstream. And you're saying, well I think this is 6 c o mpensated for, because any given sample that's pulled 7 t h at had been validated against the AEDM, if it fails 8 a n actual test, you still have trouble. 9 But I'm far, too far away from my meager 10 t r aining in statistics to know whether I should be 11 r e ally uncomfortable with this or if something is 12 c h ewing at me. 13 MS. BARHYDT: I don't know if we can, from 14 t h at one test, we can draw a conclusion that there's a 15

- - that there is necessarily a problem with those basic 16 m o dels or the basic model grouping or how that rating - 17

- I think more has to be done. 18 MR. SACHS: I think at that this point we're 19 i n terested in the question of whether that has 20 i m plications for quality of the AEDM in testing other 21 s a mples. I just don't know what the answer is. Okay, 22 I think we've exhausted this one. Laura's told me I

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 137 1 g e t another bite. 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: You do. That's good. 3 S e veral, actually. 4 MR. EISNER: Other issues on the scope 5 d o cument? So do we have any objection to the document 6 a s written now, the one remaining issue going forward? 7 E v erybody's happy with the document except for the last 8 r e maining issue on scope? 9 MR AMRANE: I think to respond to Rusty, I 10 m e an he was questioning the five percent on the heating 11 s i de and are you suggesting a different number or are 12 y o u suggesting -- 13 MR. THARP: I think based on what the -- I 14 b e lieve that the standard deviation on heating 15 t o lerance, on heating tests is almost twice that of 16 c o oling tests. 17 MR. EISNER: Then you are saying we don't -- 18 MR. THARP: I would suggest -- my personal 19 s u ggestion would be, based on our test procedures and 20 m e thods today, that a 10 percent tolerance on an 21 i n dividual spot check would be more appropriate. 22 MS. MEYERS: For the HSB?

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 138 1 MR. THARP: For COP and HSB, yes, COP, HSB 2 a f ter. Basically, the heating parameters on air 3 s o urce. I don't know about water source product. 4 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers, PVI. Not to 5 s p eak to that issue, but to your prior question about 6 i s there anything else in what we've been seeing on the 7 s c reen, there are two other areas that I think are 8 w o rthy of at least bringing to the group's -- 9 MR. EISNER: Can I ask that we finish this 10 f i ve percent, ten percent issue first and then go -- 11 MR. MYERS: Okay. I'm sorry. I thought you 12 w e re talking overall. 13 MR. EISNER: No, I thought, I misspoke, 14 b e cause I didn't realize we hadn't yet finished 15 a d dressing Rusty's issue with the 5 percent, 10 16 p e rcent. So I want to see if we can resolve that. 17 MR. STARR: Louis Starr with NEEA. Kind of 18 m y thoughts is AHRI hasn't come out with an official 19 p o sition on that. I don't know if I necessarily want 20 t o jump to a given percentage. The other aspect of 21 t h at is, you know, the air conditioning side, heat pump 22 w o rks on the air conditioning side, too.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 139 1 So changing the tolerance levels on one, but 2 n o t the other, those not syncing together could seem 3 l i ke it could have some other impacts in terms of what 4

- - how that might drive the market. And ultimately, 5 y o u're looking for the efficiency levels of the 6 p r oducts. So to me it seems like you want to kind of 7 h a ve those in unison. 8 MR. AMRANE: I guess the question, let's say 9 i f we don't really address this issue today, would it 10 b e at least acceptable to reconsider those numbers in 11 t h e future if there is data to support that those 12 t o lerances should be increased. 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. 14 MR. AMRANE: Maybe that's the way we should 15 b e addressing it, because we've got to read some 16 s t udies and maybe (inaudible). 17 MS. BARHYDT: I think across the board, 18 w h enever any of the test procedure rulemakings are 19 o p en, that that's something that we would be interested 20 i n data and -- I mean, we're always looking to make 21 t h ese better reflect the reality of the testing 22 s i tuation.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 140 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: But the starting point should 2 b e with the procedures themselves, not just increasing 3 t h e tolerance. 4 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah. 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I don't disagree that it - 6

- the tolerance may be necessary and it may need to be 7 c h anged to be bigger or lower in certain cases. But 8 t h is starting point, the going in position should be 9 t h at we need to square away and fix these test 10 p r ocedures, if they're not, you know, up to par. 11 MR. THARP: I'm on board with that. 12 MS. BARHYDT: I agree. We've just got to do 13 i t faster. 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: If we could be involved in 15 y o ur process, that would help make it faster. 16 MR. AMRANE: Actually, you're always welcome 17 t o be involved in our process. 18 MR. SACHS: Thank you. I'll call you 19 t o morrow. 20 MR. ARMANE: Always, everybody's invited. 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: You guys will schedule a 22 m e eting and Harvey and I will be happy to show up.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 141 1 MR. AMRANE: Absolutely. 2 MR. BAUMAN: Make them two-day meetings. 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: I'm going to be on maternity 4 l e ave, so you're going to be seeing a lot of me and a 5 b a by. 6 MR. EISNER: I'm not sure where we are. 7 W e 're going to leave in the percentages as they are 8 t h en? 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: We're good. 10 MR. EISNER: No one objects to leaving the 11 p e rcentages the way they are? Okay, good. You had 12 s o me other issues? 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: No, that's it. 14 MR. EISNER: No, no. 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: Oh. 16 MR. MYERS: I had two, one up at verification 17 l a boratory requirements. Definitionally (sic) this 18 d o esn't provide very much information, very large or 19 l a rge commercial, doesn't give a manufacturer a very 20 g o od idea of what would be tested third party for sure 21 v e rsus what would be tested in their lab. 22 The AHRI program has some numbers in at least

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 142 1 t w o of those that we could consider putting in, and 2 t h at's in the large commercial water heater. Those 3 t h ings that have to be tested in a third party lab 4 v e rsus those that can be tested at a manufacturer's 5 f a cility is anything greater than a 130 gallons, or 6 g r eater than or equal to 500,000 BTUs. 7 That would give everybody, DOE and the 8 m a nufacturers, certainty as to what is third party and 9 w h at would be tested in the manufacturer's facility. 10 MR. EISNER: Thoughts on that? Comments? If 11 w e put numbers in for water heaters, do we have to put 12 n u mbers in for all the bullets? 13 MR. MYERS: And I do have numbers from the 14 p r ogram for large commercial package boilers, and 15 t h at's basically commercial package boilers, anything 16 l a rger than 300,000 BTUs. 17 MR. STARR: Another thought -- Louis Starr of 18 N E EA. Is it the classes as defined in DOE's like large 19 c o mmercial, it's a certain I think it's at 240,000 BTUs 20 t h at they're some of those -- I thought that's what 21 t h at classification was referring to. 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Only for commercial package

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 143 1 a i r conditioning. So not all of these are defined. 2 MR. MYERS: Oh, okay. 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: But the intent here was that 4 i t cannot be tested. Now, that's not to say that DOE 5 s t ill won't use its discretion to test in a 6 m a nufacturer's facility if we feel that we need to, or 7 f o r whatever reason. But if it cannot be tested, 8 o b viously the only option -- and these were some 9 e x amples that people gave of things that just could not 10 b e tested. 11 I don't know if additional specificity is 12 n e eded at this point in time. If it can't be tested at 13 a third party facility, you better believe our only 14 o p tion is to test at a manufacturer's site. So if it 15 c a n't be tested though, I don't know why we need to 16 e x clude it. 17 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Meyers at PVI. 18 T h at really does speak exactly to the issue. One of 19 t h e reasons that you're not hearing a lot of opposition 20 a b out third party testing, and we've had a lot of 21 d i scussions about people being at the site and that 22 s o rt of thing, is that there's a fair amount of

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 144 1 e x perience in testing products that are smaller water 2 h e aters, smaller boilers. 3 When you get to the products that are greater 4 t h an 130,000 BTUs, and/or greater than 500,000 BTUs, 5 t h ose are things that don't today go to testing 6 l a boratories to be done. They are done in 7 m a nufacturer's facilities. 8 Could a central test facility come to know 9 h o w to test those kinds of products? Potentially. But 10 t o say I'll write a contract for a particular 11 l a boratory to test this larger equipment, they would 12 n o t come into that with experience. All of those today 13 a r e tested in manufacturer's facilities. 14 It would seem that that would be appropriate 15 t o continue to do that for those pieces of equipment. 16 MR. SACHS: Ashley? 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, I'm listening. 18 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey and I'd like to 19 h a ve a compilation of the reports from the manufacturer 20 g r oups on what their current practice is and Mike's 21 b e en very helpful on that for one class. And I'd like 22 t h e accredited test labs to also tell us what their

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 145 1 c a pabilities are by class, what their chambers can 2 h a ndle. 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Sure. 4 MR. SACHS: So I think it would be an awfully 5 l o t easier -- I grant that the logistics is yet another 6 i s sue, it's just not how big chamber is. But I think 7 i t would nice to have some information to frame the 8 d i scussion. 9 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers, PVI again. 10 H a rvey, that -- at least on water heaters and boilers, 11 I can give you within a very tight margin because I 12 w o rk with all of the laboratories. Most of them are 13 a b le to test water heaters or boilers in terms of 14 c a pability up to a million BTUs. 15 It gets problematic for some. You certainly 16 c a n't do any high altitude testing with that kind of 17 B T U input. That says that UL, unless it's changed 18 w i thin the last couple of years, is basically at a 19 m i llion BTUs. InterTech and CSA are all at a million 20 B T Us for those products. 21 So if you were to ask them, they would say 22 t h at or some number similar to that.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 146 1 MR. SACHS: But I don't know what the 2 s i tuation is for other product types like CRE. So 3 t h at's why I'm asking. 4 MR. MYERS: Sure. And that's why I'm only 5 s p eaking to those two. 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, I think one of the 7 t h ings I guess I'm also wondering is -- so Energy Star 8 j u st came out with a commercial water heater specific, 9 a n d it does require third party or at least some avenue 10 o f third party and/or witness testing. 11 So in theory, you know, there are third party 12 l a bs out there that will be EPA approved and accredited 13 t o run a DOE test procedure and these don't have upper 14 l i mits. I'm not saying there aren't considerations to 15 b e given, but once again, if the third party labs have 16 t h e capability and they are accredited by an 17 a c creditation body, are we saying then that they 18 s h ouldn't be? I mean, I don't know. 19 MR. MYERS: Ashley, this is Frank Myers, PVI 20 a g ain. To your point, Ashley, if I were to request 21 I n tertech to conduct my Energy Star listing on a 22 m i llion BTU or a 500,000 or a two million BTU water

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 147 1 h e ater, I'm a certified, what they call a satellite 2 f a cility, have the same capability and rating, their 3 p e ople would come down and monitor and supervise. We 4 w o uld simply provide the labor, but it would be done in 5 o u r facility. 6 MR. EISNER: So how do we want to leave this? 7 W e need to gather more data? 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, I mean to the extent 9 e i ther the third party labs and/or the manufacturer's 10 w a nt to provide input as to what these delineations 11 m i ght, should be, I don't think at this point we have 12 e n ough information to draw a line. We can revisit if 13 a d ditional details of this need to be flushed out. 14 MR. MYERS: Okay. 15 MR. EISNER: I mean, is it something you 16 c o uld raise in a preamble that if people can provide 17 d a ta, you would consider putting in numbers such as -- 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Absolutely. 19 MR. EISNER: And then you could provide it 20 d u ring the rulemaking process if you have data on that. 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. It can be provided 22 l i ke at the next meeting.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 148 1 MR. EISNER: Okay. 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. 3 MR. MEYERS: And I have one other -- this is 4 F r ank Myers again -- one other item that we discussed 5 b u t did not finalize at the last meeting and that was 6 t h e invalid rating process. 7 MS. BARHYDT: Right. That's moving on to the 8 n e xt -- 9 MR. EISNER: That's the last -- 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: But cannot use AEDMs anymore? 11 T h at one? 12 MR. MYERS: That issue. 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, that's the beginning of 14 t h e presentation deck for this meeting. 15 MR. MYERS: Okay. All right. 16 MS. BARHYDT: That's not on this stuff is it? 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: At 2:00, we might get to it. 18 MR. EISNER: Any other issues? 19 MR. BAUMAN: Can we get clarification, Table 20 5 , Commercial Refrigeration, the second footnote as to 21 i n terpretation of the DOE or not, the footnote. 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: This one?

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 149 1 MR. BAUMAN: Yeah. 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: So these are -- and maybe 3 t h ere's a better way to say this. This was part of the 4 c o ncerns that there were some product class 5 d i fferentiations features that we weren't adopting as 6 v a lidation classes, but that a unit -- that if you 7 o f fer a transparent model, or a solid model, or a 8 v e rtical model, or some -- that you should mix and 9 m a tch for your minimum number of two. 10 So in other words, if you have a transparent 11 v e rtical, self-contained refrigerator, you would do -- 12 t h at would meet two of those -- do you see what I'm -- 13 t h ere's concern -- 14 MR. BAUMAN: Yeah. Go ahead. 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: There's this concern that 16 t h ere were some product equipment class distinctions 17 t h at should be picked up at least in some type of 18 v a riety, as part of this minimum basic model. Not 19 b a sic, this minimum model set that you have to test. 20 S o you shouldn't test all transparent models if you 21 m a ke transparent and solid models. Or you shouldn't 22 t e st all vertical models if you make semi-vertical or

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 150 1 h o rizontal and vertical models. That you should mix a 2 l i ttle bit. 3 MR. BAUMAN: Okay, and that's what I'm trying 4 t o understand. Like if you -- 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: There's no minimum amount of 6 h o w many or how much or -- just it should be from a 7 c r oss section. 8 MR. BAUMAN: Okay, so if you have basically 9 m a nufacture all those models as self-contained 10 r e frigerators. 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: You have to pick two and the 12 t w o have to be different. 13 MR. BAUMAN: Okay. But you don't have to 14 p i ck one transparent model, one solid model, one 15 v e rtical model? 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. 17 MR. BAUMAN: Okay. All right. 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: We did not include them up 19 h e re as separate like categories. 20 MR. BAUMAN: Okay. Much of the wording I 21 t h ink it might be better -- 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: If you can help us, I'm happy

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 151 1

- - but the premise was there. Yeah. 2 MR. BAUMAN: Yeah, I think there might be a 3 b e tter wording. I was confused by it with the wording. 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think we're on the same 5 p a ge with the underlying idea. 6 MR. BAUMAN: Yeah, it should be, yeah. 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: But I welcome word changes -- 8 f u lly expected them. 9 MS. DANE: Along that line, Ashley -- this is 10 M a ry from Traulsen -- service over the counter models. 11 D i d we have a general definition for what you were 12 i n cluding in there? 13 MR. AMRANE: It's been approved by Congress, 14 r i ght? 15 MS. DANE: Yeah. 16 MR. AMRANE: Congress just -- 17 MS. DANE: In the energy bill there. 18 MR. AMRANE: Yeah, in December, so it's 19 t h ere. 20 MS. DANE: Thank you. 21 MR. EISNER: All right. Are we done? Have 22 w e exhausted all the issues?

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 152 1 MR. SACHS: And the participants. 2 MR. EISNER: Pardon? 3 MR. SACHS: And the participants. 4 MR. EISNER: Yeah, got almost four more hours 5 t o go. We'll give you break, though. All right; the 6 n e xt thing is to pull out your slides. And the first 7 o n e's in them, in the pretty pictures of all the 8 e q uipment starting the first slide, is the AEDM issue, 9 t h e last remaining issue there. Do you want to 10 s u mmarize where you think we are on that? 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Sure. So this is where I 12 t h ink we left off was, you know, after we have gone 13 t h rough the processes of determining whether something 14 i s valid or invalid, it was a question of, is there 15 e v er a situation for which DOE should not allow for the 16 u s e of an AEDM? So should it be if you have a 17 c o nsistent -- if we test the product and consistently 18 w e seem to come out with invalid readings, does that 19 m e an fundamentally that your AEDM is invalid? 20 And so that's kind of where we left off at 21 t h e discussion points. And Frank had circulated some 22 l a nguage about the AHRI program, at least to the

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 153 1 D e partment. And what we've tried to do is put some 2 i d eas up there, and obviously I can type as we go, but 3 u n der whatever circumstances should DOE disallow the 4 u s e of an -- I think we came to the point where there - 5

- there may be such a point where we shouldn't allow 6 t h e use of an AEDM anymore. It's just what is that 7 p o int? And I know -- Frank, if you want to summarize 8 q u ickly with the AHRI. I'm not sure that this is 9 e x actly the AHRI program. This is like our wording of 10 i t , but it's just close. 11 MR. EISNER: Let me ask first, does anybody 12 d i sagree with the concept that there might be a point 13 a t which we have to stop allowing use of AEDM? Does 14 a n yone want to speak to that? 15 MR. HON: Charlie Hon. I have a question. 16 I s that across the board or is that for an individual 17 c o mpany who is abusing it? 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: It would be by a company. It 19 w i ll be per manufacturer, yeah. 20 MR. HON: That's what I want to find out. 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, it would not be all 22 s e ries of manufacturers. I guess we could make it say

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 154 1 t h at, but that was not my intention. 2 MR. HON: Charlie Hon again. My concern is 3 t h at there may be a few manufacturers who don't have 4 e n ough database to really use an AEDM but will do so 5 b e cause of costing reasons. And in our particular one, 6 t h ey're going to be very difficult to develop without a 7 v e ry large database, because there are so many 8 d i fferent varieties and so many different sizes and 9 m o dels involved. So I'm just concerned that if we're 10 g o ing to talk punishment, talk punishment to the guilty 11 p a rty. 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, this is on a per 13 m a nufacturer basis. The slide was meant to represent 14 t h at. 15 MR. EISNER: Robert? 16 MR. WHITWELL: Yes, Bob Whitwell from 17 C a rrier. Certainly I mean this is a serious topic that 18 w e need to discuss, although we also have to consider 19 t h at if a manufacturer's not allowed to use an AEDM 20 i t 's going to shut down at least a part of their 21 b u siness that relies on the AEDM for rating; right? 22 B e cause in a lot of cases it's not going to be feasible

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 155 1 t o test two samples of every basic model. 2 So one possibility that we could think about 3 i s something along the lines of what AHRI has where 4 t h ere's some escalation. So if there is some certain 5 n u mber of failures in a year, something happens. If it 6 h a ppens in the next year, it's something worse happens, 7 a n d third year something worse, more extreme happens. 8 So that in a first-time violation, hitting 9 c e rtain hurdles, they don't necessarily be denied the 10 u s e of an AEDM, but if it happens twice or three times, 11 t h en some things would have to change. 12 And the other thing that was not discussed 13 l a st time at all is timeframe. So is this in what -- 14 i f there is a certain amount, certain limit that's 15 r e ached in one year, or is it five years of what -- you 16 k n ow what is it, right? So I think that's something 17 t h at we have to talk about. 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: So can I ask you if you have 19 a proposal that I can at least start typing? 20 MR. WHITWELL: Well -- 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: For feedback, just to start 22 t h e discussion?

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 156 1 MR. WHITWELL: I mean, I think maybe we could 2 t h ink about it in terms like AHRI program where, you 3 k n ow, in a year timeframe, if you reach a certain 4 l e vel, then penalties start kicking in. 5 MR. EISNER: So a rolling 12 months? 6 MR. WHITMAN: Well, it's a calendar. We do 7 i t on a calendar year within AHRI. 8 MR. AMRANE: What you're saying here is 9 s c oring with AHRI, it assumes that DOE would be testing 10 s o many of those units. 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, that's why it says if 12 D O E has tested. So it would be DOE tested. 13 MR. AMRANE: DOE has the resources to test as 14 m a ny of those units every year? 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: Perhaps. 16 MR. AMRANE: Perhaps. 17 MR. WHITWELL: And just one more comment 18 w h ile I think I still have the floor. But the second 19 b u llet there where DOE is testing 10 of the 20 m a nufacturer's models and 10 percent or more fail is 21 m o re restrictive than the first case. So, you know, I 22 k n ow this is just up there as throwing out options but

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 157 1

- - 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. 3 MR. WHITWELL: So if we are going to do that 4 w h ere if it has a small number of certified basic 5 m o dels, and it's a certain level. If it's a company 6 w i th more, then the percentage, if you're using a 7 p e rcentage there, it needs to be somewhat equivalent, 8 r i ght, rather than have test 11 and you have one fail 9 a n d you're out, versus three and you have two fail and 10 y o u're out. 11 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp. Maybe one of the 12 o p tions we could put in is, in the second case, is the 13 m a nufacturer's request the DOE pay that manufacturer's 14 e x pense for additional tests. Because if the 15 m a nufacturer is confident their AEDM is accurate, and 16 t h en they could pay for some more testing and get down 17 t o less than the 10 percent failure rate. 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I'm going to get rid of 19 t h is language just so I have room to type some options 20 a t least. 21 MR. STANONIK: Can I kind of put some context 22 o n this?

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 158 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, please. 2 MR. STANONIK: Well, this Frank's been on at 3 A H RI and if you remember at the last meeting, we walked 4 a w ay from that meeting with one or ten percent or 5 s o mething like that, because that was what we thought 6 w a s what the program was doing and I didn't have my 7 l a ptop so I didn't know exactly what our program was 8 d o ing. 9 And so then what I sent Laura and Ashley was 10 i n fact, as has been discussed here, our programs 11 a c tually have two levels. Let's call it a probation 12 m o de if there's a certain number of failures, and then 13 a penalty mode if there's more failures. And my email 14 t o them was basically, in my view, we're looking -- you 15 k n ow, the idea that we reach a point that we tell the 16 m a nufacturer your AEDM is no longer usable, that's 17 e q uivalent to the AHRI penalty mode. That's why, you 18 k n ow, that's the NCAA kiss of death; right? 19 And so I think that it should be, and again, 20 I think Ange (ph) and I weren't -- we wouldn't have 21 t i me to communicate, but Ange kind of translated that 22 t o she had less than 10 miles, it was two, it was over

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 159 1 1 0 , whatever. But I think the point is, and where we've 2 g o tten to, is really that's, let's just say the point 3 o f discussion. 4 I don't think we had settled on the hard 5 n u mbers, but I think to keep in mind that we're talking 6 a b out the most severest of conclusions, which is a 7 m a nufacturer has developed an AEDM to rate a wide 8 n u mber of models and testing, at some point, has raised 9 s u spicion of the AEDM itself. And so now you're 10 t a lking about the manufacturer losing the ability to 11 u s e that AEDM, and as somebody mentioned, at least for 12 s o me temporary period, potentially those models are off 13 t h e market. And so that's a pretty severe thing and so 14 I think the criteria have to keep that in mind. It 15 c a n't be very usefully taken, so to say. 16 And one other thing, at least -- I'll just 17 s a y it in my own case -- last meeting when we were 18 t a lking about that, I was thinking tests in a given 19 y e ar. But on a practical basis, again, it's hard for 20 m e to imagine that the DOE's going to able to -- you 21 k n ow, looking at the range of products we're talking 22 a b out in the commercial market, and the number of

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 160 1 m a nufacturers, I'm having a hard time envisioning that 2 t h e DOE's going to be able to test a whole large amount 3 o f models in a given year, so it's also to me an issue. 4 W h ether it's X number of failures in a given year or in 5 a rolling three-year period or something, I don't know. 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: What if we do -- phase one 7 i s n't the first year, phase two is first and second 8 y e ar? I don't know. They could be (inaudible) at that 9 p o int. So I mean, Frank, I have our table up; right? 10 S o this -- if I just put Frank's table up, for example, 11 t h is seems to be what the AHRI program is. Granted, we 12 h a ven't come to what models is, but we'll get there. 13 MR. HALLEY: If there are no changes in a 14 g i ven year, is it necessary to test the following year? 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: No. Well, so for the 16 p u rposes of -- 17 MR. STANONIK: You're not testing every model 18 e v ery year. We're testing, I'm sorry, we're testing a 19 p o rtion of the entire listing every year. So every 20 t e st, you'll be testing different models. 21 MR. HALLEY: Different models? 22 MR. STANONIK: Oh yeah.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 161 1 MR. HALLEY: Okay. 2 MS. HOOTMAN: But in a three-year period, 3 e v en if you've changed no models, you have 100 models - 4

- 5 MR. HALLEY: You've got to test every three 6 y e ars then. 7 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes, once every three years, 8 t h at model then will come up for certification testing. 9 T h at's how the AHRI program works right now. 10 So sorry, that was Jill from Trane. 11 MR. BAUMAN: For some programs. 12 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. 13 MR. BAUMAN: For some programs. 14 MS. HOOTMAN: But that's -- the theory is 15 t h en it does change, your database changes when you add 16 i n new models or et cetera, so your database changes. 17 MR. HALLEY: Sure, yeah. 18 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. I'll 19 g o ahead and apologize for this, but I feel compelled 20 t o point out that we still haven't defined what a model 21 i s . 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct. Right.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 162 1 MR. SHEBIK: I'm sorry, this is Ron Shebik 2 f r om Hussman. But Jill, what you're saying, you're 3 t a lking about certification; right? And we're talking 4 a b out AEDMs; so they're two different things; right? 5 MS. HOOTMAN: You're right. I was explaining 6 h o w the AHRI certification program is working, but part 7 o f that certification program is to really say, if you 8 a r e out (inaudible) of your ratings and you have 9 s u spect problems, it alerts you to these things that 10 w e 're trying to say, which is appropriation and penalty 11 m o des, escalating enough that if you're showing a 12 c o ntinued problem in your ratings, you know, you are 13 e s sentially having to stand up for those and be 14 p e nalized for those, one way or the other. 15 And so in a way this is the same kind of 16 t h ing you want to do for an AEDM. One test shouldn't 17 m a ke you fall out of bed, but three or four suspect 18 t e sts, or whatever we decide it might be, might start 19 t o say do you have an AEDM that's not in line, and what 20 s h ould be the steps then for that. 21 MR. SHEBIK: Okay. But for his question, 22 o n ce you substantiate your AEDM and nothing changes,

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 163 1 y o u don't need to keep going back and retesting then. 2 D o I understand that correctly? 3 MS. HOOTMAN: Correct. 4 MR. SHEBIK: Okay. Okay, thank you. 5 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. I 6 t h ink it's important to point out that a very, very 7 i m portant specific difference between the AHRI program 8 a n d the Department of Energy. I believe the program 9 w i th AHRI goes probation, penalty, and if you mess up, 10 I don't know if you can get kicked out of the program. 11 R i ght? That doesn't mean you can't sell product in the 12 U . S.; that means you're kicked out of AHRI; right? 13 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Yeah. 14 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Right. 15 MR. STEPHENS: So for that part of the 16 m a rket, right? 17 MS. HOOTMAN: Well, but some of those 18 m a rkets, well you might as well just say you're out of 19 t h e market. 20 MR. STEPHENS: But -- 21 MS. HOOTMAN: In some cases. 22 MR. STEPHENS: If you make product and sell

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 164 1 p r oduct, you're still not violating federal law. We're 2 t a lking federal law here. So I think we need that 3 t h ird phase; right? So it's -- what was it, probation, 4 p e nalty, AEDM, close the AEDM, whatever, and make sure 5 w e have that important distinction because it's -- 6 h i storically, it's been probation. 7 MR. STANONIK: Well, why do you need 8 p r obation? Why do you need probation? 9 MR. STEPHENS: If you mess up while you're on 10 p r obation, then -- 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, what does that mean? I 12 m e an, so I guess what does probation, penalty and out 13 m e an? I mean, should it be probation? Meaning, do you 14 h a ve to do double the amount of testing for your 15 s u bstantiation classes? Should it mean that you're 16 j u st on notice? I mean, should penalty mean you need 17 t o do more testing, rather than the minimum amount 18 r e quired? Or, I mean at one point -- what do those mean 19 i n DOE terms, because you know -- or should there just 20 b e one phase and when you get to that threshold it's 21 o k ay, you can't use an AEDM anymore for either that 22 s u bstantiation class or all the substantiation classes

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 165 1 f o r which the AEDM is applied, or period, or -- and 2 t h ose are all ideas for discussion, what does that 3 r e ally mean for us? 4 This is, you know, an example of what AHRI 5 d o es. In the first column, so the left is what they 6 c a ll basic model groups, whenever we end up with models 7 w e can tweak. The next one would be their probationary 8 p e riod, which in DOE's terms, what does that mean? 9 And the last one would be penalty, which in 10 t h eory I guess would either be a reduced use of an AEDM 11 o r no use of an AEDM or something, I don't know. But 12 I ' m guessing, I'm asking, what are the thresholds? 13 Are those thresholds reasonable or should 14 t h ere just be one hard cutoff? Or should it be you've 15 b e en placed on warning first, and that serves as your 16 n o tice that we're watching you, more or less? 17 MR. KLEISS: This is Jeff Kleiss. Can I ask 18 t h e question of the DOE, what are the levers that you 19 h a ve to pull? What can you do as far as levying fines 20 a n d restricting us from doing things, that should be 21 c o nsidered as consequences? 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I'll just name a few.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 166 1 I ' ll let her deal with the fines. I stay out of that. 2 B u t coming from, from just my point of view, so it 3 c o uld be more testing. It could be third party testing 4 o n ly. It could be that you need to do -- so those are 5 l i ke, those are ones that come off the top of my head. 6 It could be no simulation use. It could be 7 f o r a given period of time, you have to show the 8 D e partment your test data for a certain amount of 9 p r oduct. I mean stuff like that kind -- all the stuff 10 w i th respect to testing, and the variations thereof, we 11 c o uld utilize. 12 MR. THARP: Rusty from Goodman. I'll throw 13 i n that one of the things that ought to be considered 14 i s , for those that are participants of the VICP (ph), 15 t h at perhaps the VICP data would be considered in 16 a d dition to the DOE test data. 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: We'll get there. 18 MR. AMRANE: Yeah, we need to talk about 19 t h at. 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: But that was -- they do -- 21 MR. THARP: That would be a stipulation. 22 MS. HOOTMAN: That was after the basic model.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 167 1 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, AHRI. Again, 2 I think this is -- you know it's useful certainly to 3 u s e what we do in our program and the concepts we have 4 h e re. But it needs to be recognized, we're talking 5 a b out verification testing that DOE would, I'll say 6 s p onsor, okay, you've got to pay for it. 7 And keeping that in mind, a) I don't think 8 t h at we need a probationary period because on a 9 p r actical basis, if DOE is doing verification testing, 10 a n d they find from manufacturer X that they have 11 d i scovered a misrated model, all right, and just for 12 s a ke of discussion let's say eight, ten months later 13 t h ey pick up another model from manufacturer X and they 14 f i nd another misrated model; okay? 15 There is no way that DOE's not going to have 16 m o re scrutiny on that manufacturer, unless they were 17 t o ld not to. I mean that's just to me human nature. 18 And then so in a sense there's a, let's call 19 i t a virtual probation because DOE's concern is already 20 r a ised on that particular manufacturer. I don't think 21 w e need to talk about, for DOE's regulations, 22 p r obationary. What we do need to address is okay, at

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 168 1 w h at point do misratings or reratings go from simply, 2 o k ay, there was a problem with model X, to there's a 3 p r oblem -- if the models were rated with an AEDM, at 4 w h at point do they become a problem and say okay, wait 5 a minute, there's something in the basic AEDM that 6 a p pears to be faulty? 7 And that's really what we need to answer I 8 t h ink. And so the first point I think is, again, you 9 k n ow we base all our stuff on number of model listed. 10 I think for DOE's purposes it has to be models tested. 11 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. I 12 t h ink there's an important distinction here in that it 13 i s entirely possible for manufacturers to go into the 14 p r obation period from manufacturing defects. It's less 15 l i kely to go into the penalty mode for a manufacturing 16 d e fect. It's more something else, documentation error 17 w h en we did the listing, typos, whatever, that we 18 h a ven't caught. 19 But it's important to have that distinction 20 b e cause, as the engineering staff, when we get put on 21 t h at probation mode, and we need something to go back 22 t o our senior management and every other group in our

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 169 1 c o mpany and tell them, look, we're on probation. 2 We've identified that there was an issue with 3 t h is component. We need to go visit that supplier, 4 f i gure out what the devil they have done, why this 5 c h ange happened. We need that time period to go back 6 a n d do that investigation and to look before we start 7 i n curring all these penalties, because as a small 8 b u siness, the penalties are very disruptive and very 9 m u ch a significant impact to our business. 10 MR. EISNER: Again, we've been using this 11 w o rd probation and I understand there is no definition 12 o f it. By probation, are you thinking we've made one 13 m i stake, if we make two mistakes, or if we have two 14 m i stakes, something will start happening to us? It may 15 r e quire additional testing, it may require you stop 16 u s ing your AEDM. So you're simply saying they should 17 b e warned so that they can tell their leadership. 18 And when you're saying that, does DOE have to 19 d o anything to warn them or should they know, the rule 20 s a ys two and you're out, or two and you've got to do 21 a d ditional testing and we know we just had one; we got 22 n o tified one test failed? Is that sufficient or are

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 170 1 y o u saying DOE needs to do something to put them on 2 w a rning or to put them on a probationary status? 3 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. I 4 s u spect because a lot of these programs, we won't even 5 b e notified when they're selecting our products, so 6 t h ey'll have to tell us for us to know that there was 7 a n issue. We don't necessarily have to be informed when 8 e v erything passes and it meets the specifications. A 9 l o t of these programs, if they don't tell us we won't 10 k n ow. 11 MR. EISNER: But the triggering event is a 12 f a ilure. 13 MR. STEPHENS: Yes. 14 MR. EISNER: So if you get notified of a 15 f a ilure, which I assume you do -- 16 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. 17 MR. EISNER: -- you know you've got a failure 18 a n d one more or two more or whatever the standard is, 19 y o u're in trouble. 20 MR. STEPHENS: Well, it could easily be 21 l i sted out in a form letter that they would send that 22 w o uld identify the steps and everything we're outlining

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 171 1 t h ere. 2 MR. EISNER: People want to talk about a form 3 l e tter, or some kind of or some kind of notice? 4 MR. STANONIK: I think -- Frank Stanonik, 5 A H RI - - but we've lost sight of something. We just -- 6 I think the group agreed this morning that if DOE's had 7 t h at test run and the test came out suggesting a 8 m i srating, that they're going to get together with the 9 m a nufacturer and talk about the result, review what 10 h a ppened, and unless they were witnessed the first 11 t i me, give them the option to have automatically a 12 r e test. And so there's -- 13 MS. HOOTMAN: So it's not considered a 14 f a ilure yet until that retest and that fails. 15 MR. STANONIK: Right, right. So according -- 16 i f there's lots, there's going to be lots of 17 i n teraction if you get a suspect test result. 18 MR. EISNER: Right. And there's going to be 19 m o re reaction if you have a retest and it fails again. 20 MR. STANONIK: Absolutely. 21 MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel, Mitsubishi. To me 22 t h ere should be a difference between a manufacturer who

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 172 1 h a s two failures at like a six percent level, where 2 t h at might suggest that tweaking of the AEDM is 3 n e cessary. Whereas if you have a manufacturer that has 4 t w o ratings at 10 percent or greater -- 5 MR. EISNER: You're talking tolerances or -- 6 MR. DOPPEL: Yeah. 7 MR. EISNER: Okay. 8 MR. DOPPEL: Yeah, tolerances. 9 MR. EISNER: So five percent is the tolerance 10 l e vel and they would say -- 11 MR. DOPPEL: Yeah, five percent is the 12 t o lerance level -- 13 MR. EISNER: And they were at six? 14 MR. DOPPEL: -- and they were at six percent, 15 s o that that implies maybe a tweaking is needed. But 16 i f someone is at two tests at 10 percent, then that is 17 j u st a -- you know, it's more of a gross failure. 18 MR. EISNER: You're saying the rules should 19 r e flect this as opposed to the manufacturer's rating? 20 MR. DOPPEL: Well I'm throwing it out for 21 c o nsideration that there's -- there should be, to get 22 i n to this severe mode, it has to show that there's

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 173 1 g r oss lack of consistency with the program. 2 MR. EISNER: Jill? 3 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah, well, this is Jill 4 H o otman. I would agree with Paul. It's also how many - 5

- if I'm a manufacturer and all I have is 10 of these 6 m o dels, if I fail two of those, that's a bigger, way 7 b i gger percentage than if I only fail -- if I fail two, 8 l i ke you're putting up there, if I fail two and I've 9 g o t millions of these models, has that really told me 10 a n ything 11 I don't think that's told the Department anything yet, 12 w h ether an AEDM is in line or not in line. 13 S t atistically, two in a million and two in ten are 14 g o ing to mean two different things. 15 MR. KLEISS: Sorry to challenge that though. 16 W e 're saying that we should be able to substantiate an 17 A E DM with two tests and now we won't allow DOE to 18 c h allenge it with two tests? 19 MS. HOOTMAN: Two was not on a calendar year 20 n e cessarily. Or we didn't ever have a time -- 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's even less for them. 22 MS. MEYERS: So --

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 174 1 MR. EISNER: Karen? 2 MS. MEYERS: This is Karen with Rheem. So 3 w h en you say an invalid rating, is that -- are we still 4 o n the assessment testing or would this be enforcement? 5 Y o u failed an enforcement -- 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: No, just assessment. 7 MS. BARHYDT: No, this is based on a test. 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: So we've gotten through this 9 w h ole process we worked out where we said we got to 10 h e re. We've determined that you're outside of 11 t o lerance, we have valid tests, and that you have some 12 o p tions. And the question is, at what point, you know 13 i f we get to this process a bunch of times, at what 14 p o int does that mean there needs to be something else? 15 And that's where we are here. I just put 16 t h ese numbers out there. They're not -- you know, 17 t h ey're just meant to, it can be, we can change these. 18 B u t you know really we're talking about we have come to 19 t h e determination that a given model has an invalid 20 r a ting. 21 How many do we need to determine to say okay 22 s o mething's just off? You need to take a step back and

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 175 1 l o ok at this closer. I mean, my sense was that the 2 g r oup, from the other day and today, a) supported 3 s o mething like this, although the details of it are yet 4 t o be known. But b) would rather have it clearly 5 d e fined than leave it to discussions they might have 6 o n e-on-one with Laura, once they get in that context. 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, I think we need it 8 d e fined, but you know -- 9 MS. BARHYDT: I figured it out. Because I'm 10 n o t -- 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: She's a really nice person, 12 t h ough. Just not in that, maybe not in that context. 13 MS. BARHYDT: I mean, it's so dependent upon 14 h o w you define your AEDM because if you do an 15 a s sessment test and I fail and I said okay, we're going 16 t o do a retest and I go and witness and I still fail, 17 b u t my AEDM covers tons of models, I'm still not sure 18 t h at it means the AEDM is invalid. It could mean you 19 k n ow I've got a defective component in that unit. It 20 c o uld be a typo in the data that we submitted. So 21 t h at's why, you know, just failing an assessment test 22 o n a model, to me is, it would be kind of a weak reason

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 176 1 t o invalidate an AEDM. 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, and I don't think, you 3 k n ow, what we've said here is part of the process. 4 W e 're not invalidating the AEDM if you have a single 5 m o del, but if we tested 10 in a row of your models, 6 s p anning a wide range and all 10 of them come out with 7 i n valid readings, there's a bigger -- 8 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah. 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: And so we're saying what is 10 t h e threshold here? I'm just putting numbers up 11 b e cause they're easier to type, but -- 12 MR. BAUMAN: I think the first think is get - 13

- I don't think that based on what Karen is saying, I 14 d o n't think you have a one in that table. It starts at 15 t w o. You know, we know one bad one, that model's out. 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, absolutely. 17 MR. BAUMAN: And you know you've got to -- I 18 t h ink most manufacturers, the manager is going to go 19 l o ok at the AEDMs, you're going to go look at that 20 A E DM, it gives you an opportunity before it gets -- and 21 w h ether you have two to three or two to -- you know, 22 s t arting at two, okay now what are we -- now you got a

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 177 1 p r oblem with your AEDM, or DOE sees there's a problem 2 y o ur AEDM, obviously. 3 MS. HOOTMAN: This is Jill. Would we say 4 t h at these are in a validation class or across a 5 v a lidation class? 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, I just ... 7 MR. BAUMAN: And does it make a difference 8 w h ether that model that didn't pass was part of an AEDM 9 o r if it was tested -- because you had models that you 10 t e sted with an AEDM versus models that you did a full 11 t e sting. 12 MR. STANONIK: It would only be models you 13 t e sted within the AEDM because we're really looking at 14 t h e point at which -- at what point do you go from 15 f o cusing on the model that failed to the -- will the 16 u n derlying rating system that applies to this range of 17 m o dels. 18 MR. BAUMAN: I'll agree with you because that 19 w a s kind of my first thoughts about it, but actually if 20 y o u think about if you have a manufacturer that has, 21 u s ing AEDMs, and he gets -- you guys test their units, 22 D O E tests the units, maybe it didn't have anything to

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 178 1 d o with AEDM. That manufacturer's probably got a 2 p r oblem. 3 He's doing some -- you know, that starts to 4 p u t -- and almost as a punishment on them is okay, if 5 y o u're using an AEDM we're going to start taking -- you 6 k n ow, you had that ability to do that, now you've lost 7 t h at, whether that was -- you know necessarily or even 8 p a rt of how you did it, you know again it puts you at a 9 l o t more jeopardy of losing more models, losing ratings 10 r a ther than just those two because if they're not in 11 t h ere you just lose the two and it's -- but the 12 m a nufacturer, they've tested two, that guy's doing 13 s o mething wrong. I mean, I guess we're going to talk 14 a b out other parts of that so maybe it doesn't have 15 a n ything to do with it but that's kind of how I was 16 t h inking of it also. 17 MR. MYERS: Frank Myers at PVI Industries. I 18 h a ve put down a list of where you got two, four, five, 19 s i x, I just said at some level. And the first one that 20 I had, and this may be too weak, but in an effort, as 21 y o u were saying before, to get something on the screen 22 w h ere we have some context to talk about. I had down

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 179 1 r e vise the AEDM. 2 If there's an error with the AEDM then you 3 r e vise the AEDM. And then you revalidate, just like 4 y o u started, two units for each of the categories 5 c o vered by the AEDM. You basically go through the 6 r e validation process. 7 MS. BARHYDT: Meaning new tests? 8 MR. MYERS: New tests. 9 MS. BARHYDT: Or using the preexisting test? 10 MR. MYERS: If you -- I didn't specify. If 11 i t means new tests, then we could so say. If you could 12 u s e that as one of the two, then we could so say. I 13 w a sn't trying to identify whether you could use that or 14 n o t. 15 Certainly whatever you revise it to, when you 16 u s e that AEDM for that model, it can't be higher than, 17 o r within five percent of what that number was. 18 The second level that I had, again 19 u n specified level, but the next higher level is to 20 r e vise the AEDM to correct the problem and reevaluate, 21 d o ubling the number of validation tests in order to 22 r e validate the new AEDM.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 180 1 MS. HOOTMAN: And at some point here, these 2 a r e probably at the cost of the manufacturer versus the 3 c o st of DOE? 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: These would all be at your 5 c o st, yeah. 6 MR. MYER: These are all at the cost of the 7 m a nufacturer because these are validating the AEDM. 8 T h e third one that I had was basically a repeat of the 9 f i rst one except you had to get those double number of 10 u n its tested by a nationally recognized testing 11 l a boratory, third party laboratory in order to 12 r e evaluate. That puts some cost penalty into the 13 p r ogram beyond having to build new units and do 14 a d ditional testing. 15 And then at some level, again not specifying 16 t h e level, at some level you have to test all of the 17 b a sic models covered by the AEDM. Then if you want to 18 u s e the AEDM again, you have to revise the AEDM, repeat 19 t h e AEDM validation, and that validation should show no 20 h i gher, no levels higher than the test conducted on all 21 t h e basic model groups. That enables you to use an 22 A E DM but it would be incredibly punitive because one

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 181 1 t i me you're going to have to test every basic model 2 g r oup, or basic model to have what we want to define. 3 MR. RIVEST: I would like to clarify 4 s o mething here. Is it people's understanding that a 5 m a nufacturer can elect to have six AEDMs substantiation 6 c l ass? 7 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Yes. 8 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Right, correct. Yeah. 9 MS. HOOTMAN: Six or one, their choice. You 10 h a ve weigh these risks. 11 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Because it's never 12 c l early stated anywhere. 13 MR. STEPHENS: Phil Stephens, HTP. I think 14 P a ul had an excellent point about it makes a big 15 d i fference how far we failed. If it's more than 10 16 p e rcent off the mark, it means something totally 17 d i fferent than if it's five-and-a-half percent. 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: So we've defined that, right? 19 I mean to us it's an invalid rating once you're outside 20 o f tolerance, period. Now, that being said, I assume 21 i f you're six percent or you know, 10 percent, I don't 22 k n ow if you want your penalty structure based on six

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 182 1 p e rcent, ten percent, seven percent, eight percent, 2 n i ne percent. It gets into the fact that we define an 3 i n valid rating outside a given tolerance. 4 Whether it's six, whether it's 10, whether 5 i t 's 20 at that point, you know it's invalid, and it's 6 o n you. We can certainly try that, but it's going to 7 g e t really complicated really quickly. 8 MR. STARR: This is Louis Starr of NEEA. One 9 o f the things that was, your kind of your second 10 p e nalty box there, the five to six, a lot of these 11 A E DMs really, depending on two being the minimum and 12 d o ubling that, it's really what's appropriate for the 13 e q uipment that you're trying to model. 14 So I imagine a lot of these people are using 15 a lot more than four to model, or validate their 16 t h ings, and I suspect four probably wouldn't be enough 17 i n some cases for a lot of manufacturers really to 18 v a lidate their equipment. So what I potentially see is 19 t h at you're kind of creating a minimum, bare minimum 20 t h ing that's really not necessarily sufficient to model 21 t h e equipment. 22 So I kind of wonder if putting that double,

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 183 1 m a ybe something might be better, some kind of 2 a p propriate amount to validate it. 3 MR. MYERS: I think it's really difficult 4 b e cause we're not, DOE is not verifying, they're 5 v a lidating the methodology. So it's just, when you're 6 d o ne, this is what you do. 7 MR. STARR: But honestly, would you see in 8 s o me of this, if you had problems with equipment, that 9 w o uld you see you as a manufacturer only doing four 10 t e sts? 11 MR. MYERS: Probably not, but this is the 12 p u nitive side of it. 13 MR. STARR: Yeah. 14 MR. MYERS: You having to do this, pay to do 15 t h at, pay the build ups. 16 MR. STARR: I guess what I'm saying is that 17 c h ances are, to do a legitimate engineering job, you'd 18 b e doing a lot more than four models. So if they're 19 a l ready falling down on the job, just requiring them to 20 d o four is kind of like not really getting at the root 21 o f the problem. 22 MR. MYERS: No, but it provides a penalty.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 184 1 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah, I mean, it's how much of 2 t h is -- are you allowed to use your own testing data to 3 p r ove this or, you know. Because if we were doing this 4 i n -house, it's a little different cost than if I'm 5 g o ing -- if I'm forced to double mine and go to a third 6 p a rty, it's a different cost. I mean, you just doubled 7 i t for me or tripled it for me. 8 Versus if I found a problem within myself, I 9 m i ght go within myself and you're essentially looking 10 a t kind of funny money in a lot of ways because it's 11 j u st the cost of the equipment and how you choose to 12 f l oat your overhead for that (inaudible) and everything 13 e l se. 14 MR. MYERS: So you feel this would be 15 s u fficient motivation to encourage you to do the right 16 t h ing. 17 MS. HOOTMAN: This is real dollars going out 18 t h e door. 19 MR. FLY: So this is Mark Fly with AAON. 20 W h at kind of timing are we talking about? I mean, you 21 c a n't, you know, are you going to allow, once you've 22 b e en declared -- you've done your two and you've got to

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 185 1 d o -- or you've done your four and you've got to do 2 d o uble validation tests and then submit that to the 3 D e partment. 4 Are you shut down in that product in the 5 m a rket until that gets rectified or how does that all 6 w o rk in timing? I think that's one thing we have to 7 a d dress. 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: We haven't gotten there yet. 9 W e 're still working on the -- 10 MR. FLY: Right. 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: But no, I mean the answer is 12 n o , we would come up with something. 13 MR. FLY: Right. There's got to be some time 14 p e riod. 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: Sure. 16 MR. FLY: Because you have to be given the 17 c h ance to react. 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, absolutely. 19 MR. BAUMAN: And I think along those lines, 20 p r obably for commercial equipment, it would be more 21 l i ke a two-year for what they're talking. I mean for 22 y o u guys to test -- I was thinking about that from two

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 186 1 s i des. If you get one unit, you know and manufacturers 2 r u n around trying to find out what the problem was or 3 w h atever, by the time you get that, you know that's 4 g o ing to take another couple months and for DOE to 5 g o ing out and right away and find a second unit that 6 y o u didn't even have time to react. 7 If they've got to do that within a year, a 8 c a lendar year, that's a pretty -- doesn't give the 9 m a nufacturer time to react and how does that affect how 10 q u ick he's going to do the next one? 11 And then if you get to numbers four, six, you 12 k n ow are they going to be able to test four pieces of 13 c o mmercial equipment from the same manufacturer in one 14 y e ar? 15 I mean for them probably two years -- again, 16 i f you happen to find a manufacturer and you decide to 17 t e st them in September or October of the calendar year, 18 y o u know now you only have to the end of that calendar 19 y e ar to -- you'll never get to that number. 20 MR. HON: Charlie Hon, True Manufacturing. I 21 t h ink that when you're getting into some of these large 22 u n its, we were talking last meeting 180 days for

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 187 1 a n other unit to be prepared. Two years is too short. 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. 3 MR. HON: Because there are so many 4 p o ssibilities. Say that we -- okay, instead of rushing 5 y o u the unit right away, well it took a little bit 6 l o nger because a component late, because we knew we 7 w o uld go past the end of the calendar year. So you 8 c o uld easily delay the process and jump into another 9 y e ar and end up with -- you know three is a reasonable 10 n u mber that you're going to catch things. But one and 11 t w o just, with these long lead times that we look in 12 o u r industry, potentially it could be problematic. 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: What do we think? 14 MR. WHITWELL: Well, I mean, you just 15 i n creased the number of years, but you didn't change 16 t h e numbers. 17 MR. BAUMAN: You need to get a percentage. 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: We were aware of that. 19 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers. Ashley, the 20 l a st one down there is dramatically different than what 21 I had saw proposed, and that was that the manufacturer 22 w o uld have to test all of their models in that,

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 188 1 w h atever was covered by that AEDM. And then having 2 p r ovided that, then they would go back. 3 We could make it third party but I was 4 s u ggesting this all be done by the manufacturer because 5 j u st having to test all your basic models is draconian. 6 S o that's already a near shutdown for that line type 7 e v ent. 8 MR. WHITWELL: That's shutting down, right 9 t h ere. 10 MS. BARHYDT: As I'm reading this, we're not 11 g o ing to wait until we hit six. After two, you're 12 g o ing to get a notice from the Department. 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: After one you're going to get 14 a notice. 15 MS. BARHYDT: Well, after you're going to -- 16 y o u're going to know from the whole process anyway. 17 B u t after two, you're going to get an official notice 18 t h at you need to do new testing. We do two more, and 19 i t 's let's say the same year, and you have additional 20 v a lidation testing. 21 I mean, our hope is that you will never hit 22 s i x, you will never hit eight. You will have had ample

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 189 1 o p portunity to address the problems, fix the problems, 2 a n d we won't ever hit having tested that many units 3 t h at are off. 4 MR. WHITWELL: So, this is Bob Whitwell from 5 C a rrier. Is this the first program where DOE is 6 s e tting up something like this? Do we have other 7 e x amples to look at as far as what DOE is doing? So 8 y o u're starting this program with one of the -- with a 9 v e ry difficult, complicated product category? 10 MS. BARHYDT: Well, a lot of products don't 11 a l low simulations. So this whole concept of validating 12 t h e simulation and not requiring testing in the first 13 p l ace, you're in a unique circumstance to begin with. 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. We already enforce 15 r a tings and make them rerate some testing, already -- 16 MR. WHITWELL: There are other products where 17 y o u do the -- 18 MR. AMRANE: We have an arm for residential 19 p r oducts. It has been used for 20, 30 years in place. 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right, but we don't have a 21 v e ry -- I mean we don't have a -- 22 MS. BARHYDT: We don't have a process for

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 190 1 t h is. 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: We don't have a process that 3

- - 4 MR. AMRANE: Don't have a process, but there 5 i s a precedent. 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, that's an open rule, 7 t o o. 8 MR. WHITWELL: So you're starting with a 9 l o wer volume, more complicated products rather than 10 s t arting with high volume, simpler products? 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, this the negotiations; 12 r i ght? 13 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: The scope. 15 MR. HON: Charlie Hon again. You're defining 16

- - he's trying to define that something that -- this 17 r u le reaches across a broad band of products. 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. We realize that some 19 o f the negotiations, especially with respect to today 20 a n d tomorrow, may have wider implications than this 21 r u le. I mean, than this particular space. 22 MR. HON: Charlie Hon again. Because when we

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 191 1 t a lk about products and different classifications and 2 d i fferent arms, if we ever, AEDMs, if we ever use them, 3 w e could easily end up with 30 or 40 AEDMs developed in 4 o u r -- because of the nature of our products. So we 5 c o uld easily hide behind this and end up with 80 or 90 6 f a ilures before you'd ever really be choking us off. 7 I t depends on how many AEDMs we develop and how much 8 d a tabase we have behind it. 9 MR. BAUMAN: Does anything -- just relate to 10 C h arlie, do we -- and one thing I haven't been sure of 11

- - if somebody's using an AEDM, are they declaring 12 w h ich AEDM? Do you know if they had 80 or 90, or two? 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: We haven't said yet. 14 MR. BAUMAN: I'm not sure that -- okay. 15 MS. BARHYDT: I'll think they'll be in the 16 c e rtification as special. 17 MR. BAUMAN: Okay. 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean so, I think it depends 19 o n how you word phase one, which is going to be our 20 o n ly phase. But new testing to validate an AEDM with a 21 v a lidation class, even if you have 10 AEDMs within the 22 v a lidation class, I mean you have to do new testing,

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 192 1 e v en just if one of those fails. It doesn't say just 2 t h e models to which that AEDM has applied. 3 MR. BAUMAN: You may want to just -- you're 4 t e sting that all or any AEDMs within the validation 5 c l ass? 6 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers. Would you 7 r e peat that again because that was 180 degrees from my 8 t h ought what our discussion was that if you had an AEDM 9 t h at covered this model, this is what you would have to 10 d o for the failed AEDM, not if you had 20 AEDMs you had 11 t o do this for all 20 AEDMs. 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: No, that's not what I said. 13 I f you have 20 -- so the penalties right now are 14 w r itten in terms of validation classes, so mapping up 15 t o the number of models you have to test to validate 16 y o ur AEDM. So for example, if you have one AEDM within 17 a validation class, say gas-fired water heaters less 18 t h an 10 gallons and we find that two models fit, or 19 w h atever, you would have to do new testing to validate 20 t h at AEDM within that validation class. So just two 21 m o re models, period. 22 Now if, using the same example, if you had 10

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 193 1 A E DMs within that validation class, regardless of 2 w h ether you have one or 10, the penalties are written 3 p e r validation class, so you'd still do two. 4 We can change it, but that's what -- I mean - 5

- 6 MR. MYERS: Yeah, I certainly have not put 7 v a lidation class in what I was doing. I was doing per 8 A E DM. 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't see how you would do 10 i t any other way; otherwise you can't tell what you had 11 t o test. 12 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. This is Bob Whitwell, 13 C a rrier. One of the issues with this is that if we 14 l o ok at a particular class, air cold split and packaged 15 h e at pumps, and air conditioners greater than or equal 16 t o 65 to 760,000 BTU per hour. 17 So you've got single packaged equipment in 18 t h ere. You've got split systems in there. You've got 19 d i fferent configurations of single packaged equipment. 20 Y o u've got cooling only. You've got heat pumps. 21 Y o u've got cooling units with gas heat in there. 22 You could have many different AEDMs for that

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 194 1 c l ass that are different depending on the different 2 t y pe of equipment. And to say that if you were to fail 3 u n its that are in a particular type with using a 4 p a rticular AEDM, and that means you have to -- I mean 5 i f you get to that last one you might as well be out of 6 b u siness because you can't test two samples of every 7 b a sic model. So I don't think that -- I think that's 8 m u ch too severe. 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, I mean, you guys can 10 s u ggest wording, but remember that you think you can 11 s u bstantiate an AEDM, period, by just using two tests 12 f o r all of those models. But I can't evaluate it? 13 MR. WHITWELL: It's two models per -- okay, 14 i t 's two per class as opposed to two per AEDM. 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's two per class, period, 16 t h e minimum. So you told me that that's all you need 17 t o say my model is valid. 18 MR. WHITWELL: No. No, that's what you said 19 w a s the minimum. That's not what I'm testing to 20 v a lidate -- 21 MS. BARHYDT: But the reality is it's a 22 t r adeoff. Either you want to minimize the required

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 195 1 t e sting and make your classes very, very broad -- 2 MR. WHITWELL: I just don't know -- I cannot 3 t e ll every manufacturer what they should do to validate 4 t h eir AEDM. I know what I need to do to validate my 5 A E DM. 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Absolutely. 7 MR. WHITWELL: And I'm going to be testing 8 m o re than two samples in each class. I will test a lot 9 m o re than two samples in each class, but that's up to 10 m e to figure out what I need. 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: So what is the minimum amount 12 y o u think that DOE needs to invalidate your AEDMs at 13 s o me point? I mean really all this is requiring -- so 14 w e find two invalid readings, all it's requiring is two 15 m o re tests. And in theory, with what you just 16 e x plained, you already have them because you tested a 17 w h ole lot more. 18 I don't know. I mean, we didn't say that. 19 I t just can't be the ones that you've already used. It 20 m a y very well be that if you have others, it's okay, I 21 d o n't know. 22 But at some point, what this is doing is

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 196 1 a c tually -- I mean, if we restrict it to two new tests 2 p e r AEDM, then you could get up there pretty quick -- 3 t h e numbers add up quicker than these do, other than 4 t h e last one. 5 MR. WHITWELL: Well, I mean I think, from my 6 p e rspective, if it's per -- if you are saying that 7 y o u're going to invalidate every AEDM in this huge 8 c l ass of product that I just described, then -- 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: Only by the time we get -- so 10 E is the only -- we're not even invalidating. 11 MR. WHITWELL: Okay, we've got, I don't know 12 w h at percentage of units you're going to be testing 13 b e cause -- and we need to get to the basic model 14 d e finition. But eight units is 0.000000 percent, one 15 p e rcent. So it's very small. 16 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers. 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, it depends. You could 18 d o it both ways. It's not how it's written. 19 MR. MYERS: I guess I was misreading earlier 20 w h en we were defining an AEDM and those product 21 c l asses, I thought you had to do that for every AEDM. 22 S o if you had a line of gas water heaters that spanned

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 197 1 a pretty large variety of models, then if you were 2 g o ing to break that down into four AEDMs, then you'd 3 h a ve to have a minimum of eight tests, if you were only 4 i n one product class, but a minimum of 16 if you were 5 i n two product classes, so that each AEDM you did would 6 h a ve to have two models for each class that you were 7 i n . 8 MR. STANONIK: Yeah, this is Frank Stanonik, 9 A H RI. Ashley, if you could go back to your chart 10 t h ere, I mean first of all, again, going back to the 11 l a st meeting, my discussion of this issue was in the 12 c o ntext of an AEDM and all the models for which that 13 A E DM applies. So if your heading said, number of 14 m o dels DOE has tested within three calendar years, all 15 o f which are rated using the same AEDM, and which DOE 16 h a s found invalid readings. 17 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, we would like that. 18 MR. STANONIK: Because that -- you know, the 19 p o int is that you have this, again, you have this AEDM 20 t h at you've rated this basket of models, okay? And at 21 s o me point, if that group of models start to indicate 22 m i srating of numerous models within that AEDM, only

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 198 1 t h at AEDM becomes suspect. 2 Other AEDMs apply to other models, you have 3 n o data, you have no information to say that that 4 A E DM's wrong or invalid. And so you can't just make 5 t h at leap and say just because, for this particular 6 g r oup, if you have this information, that all of a 7 s u dden everything else is wrong. 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay, so I'm going to go back 9 o n e second. So does everybody agree that these are on 10 a per AEDM basis, because I'm going to clarify that? 11 MR. STANONIK: That's how I understood it. 12 Y e s. 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. Okay. 14 MR. MYERS: Yeah, that's covered in the 15 h e ading where it says, validate his or her AEDM prior 16 t o use. So I'm thinking it's per AEDM. 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. So then this one would 18 b e within an AEDM, the DOE has found that's a valid 19 r a ting. 20 MR. BALLO: This is Tim Ballo. I have a 21 c o ncern about that because what's to stop a 22 m a nufacturer from saying oh by the way, I came up with

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 199 1 a new AEDM since you did those last tests and I'm going 2 t o change the numbers -- 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: They would have to be 4 c e rtified, again. 5 MR. BALLO: Right, and they can certify them 6 a t the same level, but just using new AEDM. That -- 7 MR. BAUMAN: They'd be tested. They have 8 s p ecific tests to get recertified. 9 MR. BALLO: Right. 10 MR. MYERS: That's what that part is for, is 11 t o avoid that. 12 MS. HOOTMAN: And this is Jill from Trane. 13 W e 've got to have a way of approving our AEDM, we're 14 g o ing to continue this improvement over AEDMs. So I 15 m e an, every single time we get a test, we're looking 16 b a ck at those models and change it. 17 MR. EISNER: Okay, I don't see any hands 18 g o ing up. Everybody's exhausted? Nothing else to say? 19 MR. MYERS: Well, I think we were down to the 20 v a lidation class. You have to do all AEDMs within a 21 v a lidation class, and that's where all of this started, 22 w h ere we were saying the new testing to validate the

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 200 1 r e vised AEDM, not all AEDMs within a validation class. 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: It doesn't say all, right? 3 B u t for example if you applied that AEDM to four 4 v a lidation classes, do you believe that you would need 5 n e w test data to resubstantiate each of those? 6 MR. MYERS: Right. Okay. So you're setting 7 t h e word "the" in front of AEDM. 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. 9 MR. MYERS: Go ahead. That makes sense. 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. 11 MR. KLEISS: If I have five AEDMs within a 12 p r oduct class, and you test products from two different 13 A E DMs, and both of them fail -- 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: This hasn't kicked in yet. 15 MR. KLEISS: Then they're still okay because 16 t h ey're two different AEDMs. 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. 18 MR. KLEISS: And that seems to me wrong. 19 MR. STEPHENS: I think those are on a 20 d i fferent level. 21 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, AHRI. I mean 22 J e ff may have that opinion but the fact is, what we

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 201 1 k n ow, what we know from testing and manufacturing, is 2 t h at for any given model, it is a lot more likely to 3 g e t a failure because of either, let's call it 4 p r oduction error, a faulty component, a test mistake, 5 a l l kind of things, okay. And it is just more likely 6 t h at the single test indicates in fact a problem with 7 t h at particular model and not your broader AEDM. 8 MR. WHITWELL: That unit you mean, the unit. 9 MR. STANONIK: Yeah, but the unit if you're 10 v e rifying the rating of that model, right? And so just 11 b e cause if you've got two different AEDMs, again you 12 n e ed to treat the singular test as a singular data 13 p o int. And the first place to look when you have that 14 s i ngular data point is that particular model, because 15 t h ere's just more things that go wrong there first that 16 a r e just, you know -- reality interjects into 17 e v erybody's grand designs, whether it's how you design 18 a product or how your production line is supposed to 19 r u n, or what components you're supposed to get, or how 20 t h e test is supposed to run. And reality comes up and 21 s a ys well, you know what? It doesn't always work that 22 w a y.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 202 1 MR. MYERS: It's Frank Myers. Additionally, 2 J e ff, if you have broken it down into multiple AEDMs, 3 t h at means you've run multiple validation tests, so you 4 h a ve more testing spread over that family so it may 5 w e ll be that you only had a problem with that one and 6 n o t the other. 7 MR. FLY: Mark Fly with AAON. At any of 8 t h ese phases, at this point is DOE asking for the test 9 d a ta and the validations? 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, we would ask for all 11 t h ese. 12 MR. FLY: At this point, you're going to ask; 13 r i ght? 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. 15 MR. FLY: You're going to be involved. 16 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: You have to -- I mean, you 18 k n ow by the time you get to two, you will get a letter 19 f o r her with -- 20 MR. FLY: Show me your test data. 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- process and everything 22 e l se.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 203 1 MR. FLY: Okay. 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: It will be sweet, you know, 3 f r om her. 4 MR. FLY: Yeah, from the general taxes office 5 o f DOE, yeah. 6 MS. HOOTMAN: But if you do not comply, da da 7 d a da. 8 MR. FLY: Yeah. 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: Those are minor issues off 10 t h e bottom, minor. 11 MS. MEYERS: So if you fail one assessment 12 t e st, then you're going to have to provide new testing 13 t o validate your AEDM. 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: No, no, you don't. 15 MR. MYERS: Two within three calendar years. 16 T h at's the number up until now. 17 MS. MEYERS: Well is that two assessment 18 t e sts or you test one unit, let's say it fails, you go 19 b a ck and test it again and you're present, and it 20 f a ils, that's two. So you've now -- 21 MS. HOOTMAN: No, no, no. That was not even 22 c o unted as a failure until your second one.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 204 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. 2 MS. MEYERS: All right. Okay, that's where I 3 k e ep missing it. All right, thank you. I'm onboard 4 n o w. 5 MR. AMRANE: But will there be provision for 6 e x ample in case of a defective unit or something like 7 t h at? I mean let's say you test, you do one test and 8 i t 's, I don't know, 50 percent off, whatever. 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: We have gone through our 10 p r ocess to get to an invalid rating. 11 MS. BARHYDT: There was a provision before -- 12 MR. AMRANE: Before, okay. 13 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, there's a process. 14 T h ey're going to talk about -- 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: We've gotten through this 16 w h ole process that we've negotiated before. 17 MR. AMRANE: Okay. All right, fine. 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: I keep losing that. We'll 19 g e t there. There, we've gotten through all of this. 20 W e have a valid test, we have an invalid rating, and 21 h e re we are. 22 MR. AMRANE: Here we are.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 205 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Now we have multiple ones 2 w i thin a given AEDM. 3 MS. HOOTMAN: That's making you go. 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Hmm. What's going on? 5 MS. HOOTMAN: Okay. 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, I'll let you do your 7 t h ing here. 8 MR. EISNER: Any more comments on this chart? 9 MR. WHITWELL: Sorry, just one. So we still 10 h a ve to come back and look at what the numbers are; 11 r i ght? These are kind of place holders for now until 12 w e understand what the count is that we're willing to 13 t a lk about. 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, that's fine. 15 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. I 16 b e lieve we need a little bit more clarification on the 17 t o p right hand, new testing to validate. You don't say 18 w h at that new testing is. Is it per the tables above? 19 MS. HOOTMAN: Is it physical testing or could 20 o t her test data be provided? 21 MR. SHEBIK: Other test data that had not 22 b e en used to substantiate the ten tests.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 206 1 MR. EISNER: What we said earlier, if you did 2 f o ur but only two were required, you can use the two 3 y o u didn't choose. 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: We said that could be on the 5 t a ble. 6 MS. BARHYDT: That's enough. 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: But it seems that at this 8 p o int -- I mean, if you have that, right, and you 9 a c tually use it to validate your AEDM, and you still 10 c a me out with multiple invalid ratings, something's 11 w r ong. So maybe new test data really is the right way 12 t o go here. 13 MR. SHEBIK: But the reason I ask that is 14 t h ey go out, what if you have a bad component in the 15 c a se, say a bad anti-sweat heater; it's running too 16 h i gh a wattage, so it puts you over. The manufacturer 17 l a beled it wrong, they put a wrong label on it. So 18 o k ay, so you fail your test twice because of the bad 19 h e ater. You identify the problem. Okay, so say you 20 h a ve two similar things. You identify the problem as 21 b e ing a component error. 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 207 1 MR. SHEBIK: Can you use additional testing, 2 t h at you had already done during the year, to 3 r e substantiate, provided that you don't have the same 4 k i nd of component failure? 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't -- I mean -- 6 MS. BARHYDT: It's a weird situation. 7 MR. SHEBIK: I think if you identify whether 8 i t 's a component failure or they see a problem with -- 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: It is what it is; right? I 10 d o n't know, you know. 11 MR. STANONIK: Ashley, let me try and -- 12 F r ank's right. If your circumstance, okay, so let's 13 s a y that happened -- 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Wouldn't you know if you had 15 t e sted it? 16 MR. STANONIK: And you go back to the options 17 b e fore, you know the process to determine the fact it's 18 a missed rating, you would have to have data that 19 s h owed that if that component was correct, it would 20 h a ve hit the rating; right? 21 MR. SHEBIK: Right. 22 MR. STANONIK: Okay. So if you have that

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 208 1 d a ta and you're in this process of where you're in 2 d i scussion with DOE because there's been some test 3 r e sults that indicated failure, and you could in fact 4 p i npoint that okay the problem was we had a component 5 t h at was consuming too much energy, you know not my 6 d e sign component, to me that one is, you know -- and 7 y o u have the data to say if it was the correct 8 c o mponent, I have data to show it passes, why do you 9 n e ed to fix the AEDM? 10 MR. SHEBIK: That's what I'm asking. The 11 A E DM, you're going to have to. If it's component 12 f a ilure, is it really not an AEDM problem then? You've 13 h a d your test and your retest. 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: The problem, if you -- it's 15 o n ly a problem to the extent that you calibrated your 16 m o del to test data that's perhaps invalid; right? 17 MR. SHEBIK: Okay, I understand. And if you 18 h a dn't done that so then you're -- 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: To the extent that you've 20 c a librated your model such that you have a certain 21 a n ti- sweat heater wattage in there, which is 22 s i gnificantly different from the one that your

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 209 1 c o mponent supplier, and your calibration is then off, 2 t h en my answer is yes, something needs to change; 3 r i ght? Now, whether it needs to be changed -- 4 MR. SHEBIK: So (inaudible). 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. But whether that 6 n e eds to be changed -- right, so -- whether it needs to 7 b e changed -- well, that -- right, so -- but whether 8 t h at needs to be, you know, whether you can do that an 9 A E DM change or whether you need new testing to do that, 10 I don't know that I know the answer to that, but 11 s o mething is off. The calibration, by default, is off. 12 MR. SHEBIK: So before you get to the point 13 o f this table, does the manufacturer negotiate with DOE 14 a n d say, here, we identified a problem. Here's a 15 p r oblem with a bad component. It's nothing to do with 16 t h e way we rated the case or the way we tested the 17 c a se, it's the fact that the component was bad and 18 t h erefore we can validate here's why we have the issue. 19 W i th the correct component, here's what it should be. 20 MR. WHITWELL: Isn't that a part of the 21 d i scussion you have when you have that test failure and 22 y o u go through and say you know it's a defective unit.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 210 1 H e re's why it's a defective unit. This compressor was 2 o n ly performing at 75 percent of what it should have 3 b e en. Right? If that's where that discussion 4 ( i naudible). 5 MS. HOOTMAN: Some of it. 6 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, AHRI. Keep in 7 m i nd the time aspect of this. This is two tests over 8 t h ree years, okay. So again, let's use your example. 9 S o you had one that failed because of a bad component, 10 a n d now DOE tested another model, six months later -- 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: And you still have the -- 12 MR. STANONIK: And it also failed because of 13 t h e same bad component? 14 MR. SHEBIK: Different component. Listen, 15 I ' m throwing out a hypothetical situation. 16 MR. STANONIK: Well, different components. 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. 18 MR. STANONIK: And you have to show that it's 19

- - 20 MS HOOTMAN: And I'll use a real -- this is 21 J i ll from Trane -- I'll use a real life example. It's 22 b e en years ago but, you know we had a split system. It

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 211 1 w a s tested. The coil was clogged all up with solder, 2 b a d, bad quality problem with the manufacturer. When 3 w e -- you know, our braised joint was just awful; okay? 4 S o throw that test out, do another test, because 5 e s sentially we said that was a bad component. Second 6 o n e, now we have a condenser fan that is having 7 p r oblems from a manufacturer, and it's now out. This 8 h a ppens to be over about 18 months when this all gets 9 d o ne, you know, and it's been about 15 years ago. 10 But you can have consistent component hits. 11 O n e was an internal quality problem, another is a 12 s u pplier quality problem, and it could all happen on 13 o n e model. I can tell you that it happened. 14 MR. RIVEST: So during this dialogue to 15 v e rify a problem was an AEDM problem, a component 16 p r oblem, it would be possible for the manufacturer to 17 s h ow what this purchases is -- actually were for that 18 c o mponent -- 19 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah, like in this case with 20 A H RI what we do is -- on the coil one, we physically 21 h a d to get the unit back, cut it apart, and then we 22 s h owed the problems once we cut it apart, where the

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 212 1 s o lder problem was and where it was clogged, clogging 2 u p the coil. But, that wasn't done at the test, you 3 h a d to literally get it back and do it. And then yeah, 4 w e were able to show the records of why they, or how 5 t h ey supplied condenser fans incorrectly. 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, one thing is we could 7 l e ave this as new testing or additional testing or 8 r e testing to validate the AEDM. And you could work it 9 o u t with Laura in terms of if you can use your existing 10 t e st data because of those instances, or if you need 11 n e w testing altogether on different models, because we 12 c a n't -- are you comfortable with that? 13 I mean you have the exact -- at the most, to 14 t h e extent it's an AEDM applied just to a validation 15 c l ass, that would be two units. You know, and at the 16 m o st, for a commercial HVAC, it would be 18 across 17 e v ery single type we have. And to the extent you want 18 t o negotiate using -- you can show her, during the 19 c o urse of that discussion, that you have additional 20 d a ta and this is what the problem was and you 21 d o cumented it. Would that be sufficient? 22 MR. EISNER: Basically, you're saying we

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 213 1 c o uld use new, but that could be interpreted by Laura 2 t o include testing that was done -- 3 MS. BARHYDT: Based on the facts. 4 MR. EISNER: Based on the facts we have. 5 MS. BARHYDT: Neil, I just want to make sure 6 w h at you said, new would be at your -- 7 MS. HOOTMAN: New -- 8 MS. BARHYDT: Meaning different from what you 9 u s ed before. 10 MR. WHITWELL: So maybe the word could be 11 a d ditional. 12 MR. SHEBIK: Different units, but -- 13 MS. BARHYDT: I don't like additional as well 14 b e cause it makes it sound like you're still using the 15 o l d stuff, which was the basis of the bad rating. 16 W h ereas new sort of implies that -- 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Different. 18 MR. SHEBIK: Different. 19 MS. BARHYDT: So different (inaudible) 20 1 . 43.25 21 MR. SHEBIK: New, but not necessarily new. 22 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 214 1 MR. EISNER: Again, in my experience, you can 2 w r ite a rule that says new, and they can explain in the 3 r u le examples of what they would accept. And they seem 4 t o be saying we're willing to accept the examples that 5 y o u've just thrown out as being a new test that we can 6 u s e for validation purposes or whatever it is. 7 MR. SHEBIK: I'm fine with that. So you 8 b a sically -- the manufacturer can negotiate with you 9 a n d open up a discussion as to why we have a problem. 10 MR. EISNER: And they can explain again in 11 t h e preamble. Instead of trying to write 15 sentences 12 e x plaining what new means in the rule text, they 13 e x plain in the preamble, an example of what would be a 14 n e w test would be the following. 15 We have a question from Joe Saunders, if you 16 c a n patch him in. Joe, you have a question? Joe 17 S a unders? 18 MR. SAUNDERS: Can you hear me? 19 MR. EISNER: Yes. 20 MR. SAUNDERS: Hello? 21 MR. EISNER: Can you hear us? 22 MR. SAUNDERS: Can you hear me?

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 215 1 MR. EISNER: We can hear you. Can you hear 2 u s ? 3 MR. SAUNDERS: I can hear you. 4 MR. EISNER: Go ahead with your question. 5 MR. SAUNDERS: I had a couple of questions. 6 O n e was what's the time period in between failures that 7 c o unts as failure, meaning if you have a defective fan 8 m o tor and it's rolling down the production line and 9 y o u're not aware of it and you do the first test 10 s c reening and then your model failed, what's the time 11 p e riod before it's considered the second failure point? 12 B e cause you could have had multiple weeks going without 13 y o ur knowledge? 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: We would have to have two 15 s e parate tests. There is no time period other than we 16 h a ve two separate tests within a three year period, or 17 f o ur or six or eight. 18 MR. SAUNDERS: I know, but what happens -- 19 l i ke I understand the total of three years, but what 20 h a ppens if the two tests run within three months or 21 t h ree weeks? 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't think we're testing

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 216 1 y o ur products back-to-back within a three-week period. 2 MR. SAUNDERS: I know but it doesn't say 3 t h at. Anything's up for interpretation. And then the 4 o t her one had to do with statistics in with this, and 5 i t had to do with what the gentleman was just saying. 6 If you test a product that has an obviously 7 d e fective component, manufacturer defect, vendor 8 d e fect, whatever it is, do you really want to include 9 t h ose in a statistical analysis? And we're not talking 10 a b out design; we're talking about obvious manufacturing 11 d e fects or supplier defects. What I think we're after 12 i s design flaws versus, you know, someone's inability 13 t o supply something correctly. 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, I think to the extent 15 t h at you want to have discussions around what is a 16 d e fect and what qualifies as a defect and those types 17 o f things -- 18 MR. SAUNDERS: Right. 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: Our point is it's an invalid 20 r e ading. Now whether it's a defective component, 21 w h ether it's a manufacturing issue, whatever it is, 22 t h ose are the types of discussions that I'm not sure we

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 217 1 c o uld categorize by a broad statement. It's the type 2 o f discussions you're going to have to have with Laura 3 w h en you get to that point. Yeah. 4 MR. SAUNDERS: I think the fear many of us 5 h a ve, we're manufacturing mechanical devices versus 6 t h ings that are like solid state, like a TV set. And 7 m e chanical devices have the propensity to have failures 8 e v en on additional shipments. And then the sample size 9 i s so small that one unit can affect the outcome of how 10 c o mpanies have to operate. So that's kind of where I'm 11 a t , in the two things that I see in this discussion 12 c u rrent. 13 MR. EISNER: Let me call on one other person. 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: I do want to let this 15 c o nversation kind of go for a little while. 16 MR. SAUNDERS: Okay. 17 MR. EISNER: No, but I think he may have a 18 c o mment on this. 19 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 20 MR. EISNER: I've had his thing for a few 21 m i nutes. Jonathan Hunt, are you online? 22 MR. HUNT: I mean, actually my comment isn't

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 218 1 r e ally on the subject, but I had a problem getting in. 2 I ' ll toss it out, but you might have to come back to 3 i t . I know (inaudible) as a template for tolerance, 4 t o lerancing, penalty issues before the testing. I also 5 w a nt to know if there's any (inaudible) program. It 6 s o unds difficult. 7 MR. EISNER: Can you speak a little louder, 8 J o n? 9 MR. HUNT: Is this better? 10 MR. EISNER: Yes. 11 MR. HUNT: Okay. My question is if we're 12 u s ing AHRI as a good example to set up the tolerance 13 s c heme and perhaps penalty scheming, are we going to 14 l o ok at any way to introduce a mix match sort of 15 o p portunity as AHRI has done? Because it seems that 16 w i th an ICM, a lot of the difficulty is extrapolating 17 o r interpreting data and adding additional error to the 18 A E DM. I know this may not exactly be on topic but I 19 h a ve a little bit of a problem with (inaudible) 20 q u estion. 21 MR. EISNER: Should we get back to this? 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, I think we'll table

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 219 1 t h at. Let's go back to the -- 2 MR. HUNT: Yeah, we could definitely come 3 b a ck to it, I just wanted to come in and explain the 4 q u estion. 5 MR. EISNER: Okay. Charlie? 6 MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon. I'm getting 7 v e ry frustrated with some of this meeting because we as 8 a manufacturer have responsibility to test the incoming 9 q u ality of components, test the final product validity, 10 a n d now we're just constantly playing this game, what 11 i f , what if, what if somebody else is messing up our 12 p r oduct. 13 It's our responsibility to know if they're 14 m e ssing up our product because there's laws on the 15 b o oks that say you will meet this minimum requirement. 16 A n d if we're not meeting the minimum requirement 17 b e cause of all of our sub-componentry failing, I know 18 w e 'd get penalized for it. That is our responsibility 19 t o make sure that when the product leaves our facility, 20 w e 're supposed to meet the standard. 21 MR. AMRANE: So for you there is no 22 t o lerance. I mean everything that leaves the factory

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 220 1 m u st be -- 2 MR. HON: There is tolerance; that's what 3 t h ose extra numbers are down there for. 4 MR. ARMANE: No, we're talking about 5 d e fective. 6 MR. HON: Yeah. 7 MR. ARMANE: So for you there's no defective 8 u n its? I mean, there's nothing that can happen in 9 t r ansport, there's nothing that can happen -- 10 MR. HON: In transportation you'll see, this 11 i s a serious issue but that's the reason we have 12 n u mbers up there that if DOE tests eight of our units 13 i n a three- year period, they spent a lot of money 14 h e re. This is a very expensive process sometimes, and 15 I ' m sure that isn't that all of the units weren't 16 m a nufacturing. I just think we need to be facing up to 17 s o me responsibilities here that we are responsible for 18 t h e final product quality and final product efficiency 19 o f the components we release. 20 MR. AMRANE: And I think manufacturers are, 21 b u t things happen. 22 MR. HON: That's why we have these numbers up

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 221 1 h e re which allow things to happen and still make it 2 w o rk. 3 MS. HOOTMAN: Are you making millions? Are 4 y o u making millions? 5 MR. HON: Of any individual unit? No. 6 MS. HOOTMAN: Okay. 7 MR. HON: No, not even close. 8 MS. HOOTMAN: Don't speak for us. I highly 9 d i sagree. I do not want to throw out ratings on 10 m i llions of units for one test. Sorry. 11 MR. SACHS: Jill, this is Harvey Sachs. 12 J i ll's come back to my question that there really, and 13 f o r that matter Geoff Halley's, that there really is a 14 d i fference between the custom units and the production 15 o n es. 16 But I want to flip the discussion because we 17 g o t a whole bunch of honorable people around the table 18 h e re, but we have certainly seen less than honorable 19 a c tors shipping product in the United States within the 20 l a st decade. 21 And I think the question we have to be asking 22 i s , is that scheme sufficient to protect the honorable

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 222 1 m a nufacturers by alerting the community quickly enough 2 t o those who would systematically undercut and cheat. 3 And I think that gets to Charlie's 4 p e rspective. That's really what my concern has to be 5 f r om groups that I'm representing. Is this enough to 6 k e ep your playing field where it ought to be? Are you 7 g o ing to find the bad guy to be able to cut him out? 8 I t 's always a guy. 9 MS. HOOTMAN: And Harvey, without penalizing 10 t h e honorable ones. 11 MR. SACHS: With minimum impact. 12 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. 13 MR. SACHS: Because obviously there's going 14 t o be some burden in any program. So are we -- is this 15 e n ough to maintain a -- to get a good balance between 16 p r otecting the good guys and quickly pushing the bad 17 g u ys out? 18 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers. Harvey, I'd 19 l i ke to speak to that. I think this is a very -- for 20 c u stom equipment and for highly specialized equipment, 21 a n d for commercial and industrial equipment -- this is 22 p r etty aggressive. In fact, it's really aggressive.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 223 1 But there's a whole other specter that we 2 s h ouldn't lose sight of, and that is the first failure, 3 a f ter all we went through and it was in fact a failure, 4 i t 's going to public record, and I'm just waiting, I'm 5 g o ing to find out about it. 6 And if that bad player is out there, I'm 7 p r obably going to buy a couple of his units and test 8 t h em and provide that data to DOE so they can test not 9 o n e or two but four, five or six of them and they run 10 u p that circle in a hurry. 11 So I think that's one that is not here in the 12 l a nguage that we're proposing, but is a powerful player 13 i n terms of those bad eggs. 14 MR. SACHS: And that challenge of testing is 15 b e en a part of AHRI for a week or two anyhow. Back 16 b e fore Gamble (ph) was grown up or something. 17 MR. MYERS: Harvey, this goes beyond AHRI in 18 t h is instance because those players that are not in the 19 A H RI program -- now AHRI has a challenge process to go 20 o u t if there's somebody that's not in their program, 21 b u t the manufacturers have to really, really find that 22 t h at's something to do. But if they can make a call to

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 224 1 D O E and say hey, here's what we found and here's the 2 d a ta, that's a much easier thing to do. 3 MR. SACHS: Now what I'm hearing, and I'm not 4 s u re is what you meant me to hear, is that as a 5 s p ecialty manufacturer big chunks that don't go easily 6 t o third party labs, and are largely custom, you can 7 l i ve with this. So now the question, in my mind, if I 8 w e re Neil, is what does it take to make Jill happy? 9 MS. HOOTMAN: On this one, in all honesty, 10 H a rvey, to answer your question, on this one, I'm 11 a l most there but I really need to vet it against some 12 s t atistical things within my company to figure out if 13 i t does in fact penalize us more or not, and I can't 14 a n swer it here today. 15 MR. KLEISS: I mean I need some 16 c l arification. Could you just go back to the slide 17 w h ere we were please? Okay, if you have two failures, 18 y o u need different test data. So I need a minimum of 19 t w o to validate my AEDM. I've got to take two different 20 p o ints to validate my AEDM. So if I have four fail, 21 w h ere we say additional validation testing doubled, 22 s h ould that be doubled minimum?

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 225 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. 2 MR. KLEISS: Not because I'm a good player 3 a n d I use actually 10 points to validate my AEDM I have 4 t o double that? 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: I would double that. 6 MS. BARHYDT: It means double the regulatory 7

- - 8 MR. KLEISS: Can we please make that clear? 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, I mean, I don't have 10 t h e wording, and like I said, as came across last time, 11 w e 'll write this up actually in a Word document to 12 c i rculate for final approval at the next meeting, but - 13

- 14 MR. EISNER: Jill, is some -- I'm sorry, 15 f i nish, finish up. 16 MR. KLEISS: So I think part of this, this 17 k i nd of weights things in a way that whereas the 18 c o nsequences for a custom manufacturer of having to go 19 a n d produce more test data to validate an AEDM is a 20 m u ch heavier than a burden than I think a large company 21 t h at's doing very high volume. 22 Whereas once you start if the -- there is the

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 226 1 c o nsequence of getting some more failures for these 2 h i gh volumes that you're more likely to have to test 3 t h at you have potentially I guess more resources at 4 a d ditional test points for validating your AEDM is 5 m a ybe less of a burden proportionately on those high 6 v o lume players. 7 MS. HOOTMAN: Well or you're throwing out, 8 f o r one test or two tests, you're throwing out millions 9 o f models because of that. And I don't know that that 10 s t atistically really makes sense, so that's why I'm 11 w a nt to -- 12 MR. SACHS: Are we throwing them out or just 13 a s king for recalibration of the AEDM? 14 MS. HOOTMAN: Which -- yeah, I think you are, 15 b u t that's -- 16 MR. EISNER: Jill, is this something you 17 c o uld resolve overnight so we could put this to rest? 18 MS. HOOTMAN: If I could have that, possibly. 19 MS. MEYERS: Well, you know, well this is 20 K a ren with Rheem and I -- 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think we have to get to 22 t h is discussion first.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 227 1 MS. MEYERS: We have to -- I don't know what 2 n u mber -- I mean, we've got that table and it's got 3 m o del numbers and I still -- 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: I understand, which is why I 5 s a id we need to move on. 6 MS. MEYERS: We've got to define what models 7 m e ans because this is just too -- 8 MR. EISNER: That's agreed. We've got to get 9 t o that issue. I'm asking, Jill says, as I understood 10 i t , close but not there yet. And if she can resolve it 11 o v er -- 12 MS. HOOTMAN: And it's a valid point. That's 13 a valid -- 14 MS. MEYERS: Well, I'm not there either 15 b e cause I don't know what models means. 16 MR. EISNER: It's another issue, we've all 17 a g reed to that. 18 MS. MEYERS: So until we define what models, 19 I could not vote to approve this because I don't know 20 w h at the term models means. 21 MR. EISNER: But isn't that going to be true 22 f o r so many of the issues we're discussing?

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 228 1 MS. MEYERS: We have got to get to that 2 d i scussion -- 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Which is why the next slide 4 s t arts that discussion. 5 MR. EISNER: I understand. 6 MR. MYERS: Before we leave this slide, I 7 h a ve one other thing down at the bottom, just a 8 c o rrection. But I didn't want to step into the -- 9 MR. EISNER: Go ahead. 10 MR. MYERS: -- conversation. This is Frank 11 M y ers. The way it's written right now, there isn't a, 12 y o u can get back on the AEDM role. As I had that 13 w r itten that first one, it's what you have there. But 14 o n ce you've done that, if you want to add additional 15 m o dels in that range with an AEDM, you can generate a 16 n e w AEDM and you're back to using that. 17 You still have all the tests that you ran, so 18 y o u wouldn't have to do that. But if you want to have 19 a new AEDM that covers that area, that you could 20 g e nerate a new AEDM with the same two per class, but 21 n o ne of the values that that new AEDM came out could be 22 a n y lower than all of those test models. So it gives

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 229 1 y o u a path to get back on the AEDM role as you move 2 f o rward. 3 MR. EISNER: So you're proposing language to 4 b e added to the chart? 5 MR. MYERS: Yes. 6 MR. EISNER: DOE, how do you feel about that? 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't even know that it's 8 n e cessary. 9 MS. BARHYDT: Are you suggesting a way to get 10 y o urself out of this cycle or -- 11 MR. MYERS: Well you've already done this, 12 b u t if you had -- I suppose you could write another 13 A E DM that picked one out of here and one out -- as you 14 a d ded new models, where you didn't have to do two per, 15 y o u could do an AEDM, I want to introduce a new family 16 w i thin that same range. Could I use that, the old AEDM 17 f o ur and I want to come out with a new AEDM, you could 18 d o it after you did this. 19 MR. EISNER: That's already permitted; isn't 20 i t ? 21 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Yeah. 22 MR. EISNER: No, you've already fixed this

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 230 1 p r oblem. You always have the authority under the -- 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: We haven't gotten rid of your 3 a b ility to use an AEDM. However, what we've said is 4 y o u get to go to the -- for everything that that given 5 A E DM, basically that AEDM is invalid. You test all -- 6 g o ing forward, there's nothing precluding you from 7 u s ing a new or a different AEDM. 8 MR. MYERS: Okay. If that's -- 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: At least the way it's written 10 r i ght now. 11 MR. MYERS: If that's embedded in this, then 12 I ' m good. That's all I was asking for. 13 MR. FLY: And is it understood that AEDMs and 14 r a tings can change at any point in time in this 15 p r ocess? If I determine that, you know, I'm in four and 16 I want to get to six, I go back and rerate my models. 17 MR. MYERS: The same AEDM, but -- 18 MR. FLY: The same AEDM, but lower -- 19 MR. MYERS: -- minus one point on the 20 e x isting AEDM before I have to give myself a little 21 c u shion, I think you can do that. 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, I mean you would have

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 231 1 t o recertify. It's all going to hinge around how you 2 r e certify to us and what you declare. 3 MR. FLY: Right, but there is no timing 4 r e strictions. 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: You can always recertify. 6 Y o u can recertify daily if you want. 7 MR. FLY: I can recertify at any point. 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Not saying you'd want to but 9 y o u can. 10 MR. STEPHENS: Phil Stephens, HTP. I'm not 11 e n tirely sure I'm comfortable with the consequence for 12 s i x, simply because our company doesn't fit the 13 s t andard mode. We're a small company but we tend to 14 h a ve a lot of product offerings, a lot of basic model 15 g r oups, a lot of basic models. 16 So we're in between everything and if we have 17 t o go to a third party with the double minimum 18 r e quirements, then that's by default the NCAA kiss of 19 d e ath to us. That's a major thing. I mean, we would 20 h a ve no option for eight; that six would do us in. 21 MR. KLEISS: But that would just be for that 22 o n e AEDM.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 232 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: You have to get six within 2 a g ain an AEDM, so I mean, what are the odds of that? 3 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Within three years. 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Within three years, yeah. 5 MR. STEPHENS: Yes, I understand but to the 6 p o int, things happen with suppliers, different things 7 h a ppen. Yes, we are accountable for it and it's -- my 8 p o int is that -- 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, the whole -- these 10 a r e structured such that we don't get there. 11 MR. STEPHENS: Right. 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: We don't get to six. We 13 d o n't get to eight. 14 MR. STEPHENS: But my point is that those 15 l a st two blocks won't be equivalent regardless of the 16 s i ze of the company; right? Those first two blocks, 17 y e s, they're reasonable within whatever size of the 18 c o mpany you have. But those last two, you're going to 19 d i fferentiate between the small companies in an 20 i n dustry and the large companies in the industry really 21 q u ickly. 22 MR. MYERS: So Phil, would you feel

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 233 1 d i fferently if instead of saying double, you just have 2 t o get your two per class validated by a third party? 3 MR. STEPHENS: Two per class or one and a 4 h a lf times internally. Anything like that, either or. 5 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers. I 6 u n derstand what you're saying. I had proposed double 7 m i nimums because the previous one had double, but in 8 t e rms of severity, it is going bad, worse, horrific and 9 t h en you may not even reach beyond horrific. I 10 u n derstand what you're saying, so it would still be in 11 a proper progression if the six made you do the two at 12 a third party lab. 13 MR. STEPHENS: Or if it's two and a half 14 t i mes internal, that's still understandable. 15 MR. EISNER: Paul? 16 MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel, Mitsubishi. Point 17 o f clarification. So if one unit is being tested, but 18 t h ere is a problem with EER and COP, that's one, okay. 19 B e cause I don't think we have that defined anyplace. 20 MR. ARMANE: I think it's just EER. 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's a certified rating, so 22 w e consider it that is your rating, I suppose.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 234 1 MR. DOPPEL: Okay. 2 MR. BAUMAN: Is it if you -- go ahead. 3 MR. AMRANE: If you fail one and not the 4 o t her, it's hard or it's just one. 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, do you want his to be 6 t w o? 7 MR. DOPPEL: If one unit fails both, it's 8 s t ill one. 9 MR. BAUMAN: It's one unit. 10 MR. DOPPEL: Okay. 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Unless we take the Crane 12 m e thodology, it would be two. 13 MR. ARMANE: Or half of one. 14 MR. DOPPEL: I'll move away from him. 15 MR. BAUMAN: Is the intent that the 16 c o nsequences for two and four are the same; just four 17 i s double testing for two? 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct. 19 MR. BAUMAN: So should we change the wording 20 s o they're basically the same except for you add double 21

- - 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: No, it means new. So four

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 235 1 m e ans new testing there. Not existing testing. 2 MR. BAUMAN: Okay. What I'm saying is, 3 s h ould the wording of the consequences for number two 4 a n d four be exactly the same except for four you have 5 t h e double minimum? 6 MS. BARHYDT: I'm sure we talked about 7 l e tting them use existing -- 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct. I would say -- 9 MR. BAUMAN: Because they're worded very 10 d i fferently. 11 MS. BARHYDT: Is it intentional for his -- 12 MR. SHEBIK: Yeah, you use a different 13 t e sting -- 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: This is additional. 15 MR. SHEBIK: You tested ten, you can use one 16 a s one to ten, or two to ten. 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: This would not allow you to 18 u s e the same testing. 19 MR. BAUMAN: Okay. 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: For this one, you know we 21 c o uld do one and a half where the first, like a single 22 s e t is done at a third party laboratory and an

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 236 1 a d ditional would be done at your own. Would you be 2 c o mfortable with that? 3 MR. STEPHENS: Yes. 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: More comfortable with that? 5 O k ay. 6 MR. MYERS: But even that's a -- he's right, 7 t h at's a really big deal. 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: This is not going to be very 9 w e ll-worded, but minimum at third party laboratory and 10 h a lf of minimum and a half are at manufacturer's third 11 p a rty laboratory. 12 MR. MYERS: And it's going to be of the two 13 t e sts, one of the two per class is going to be in-house 14 a n d one of the tests per class is going to be at a 15 t h ird party lab? 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: No. It means two at a third 17 p a rty lab, one in yours. So one and a half total. 18 MR. BAUMAN: So you're not getting a four, 19 g e tting double there; right? Okay. 20 MR. MYERS: That's a half more than I was 21 t h inking. 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct. But not at a third

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 237 1 p a rty facility. 2 MR. EISNER: More issues? More concerns? 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: We could do half and half. I 4 m e an -- 5 MR. EISNER: Do you want to change that or 6 n o ? 7 MR. MYERS: Phil, that's -- what I believe I 8 h e ard you say was one, you would feel much better if it 9 w a s of the two per class, if one was at the third party 10 l a b and one was in-house. So if you cross two classes 11 b e fore test, one for each of those classes at a third 12 p a rty lab and one for each of those classes in-house. 13 T h is is saying two per each class, total of four, if 14 t h at's what you cross, at a third party, and one for 15 e a ch class in-house. 16 MR. STEPHENS: I think that's an acceptable 17 c o mpromise. I think it's a pain, it's a burden, it's a 18 m a jor financial penalty, and the bottom one is our 19 j o bs. 20 MR. EISNER: So change it to one of each 21 c l ass. 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: No, he said he was okay with

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 238 1 i t . 2 MR. EISNER: He's okay with it. 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. I mean, obviously I 4 n e ed to work out the language, which would be in the 5 W o rd document translation, but -- 6 MR. EISNER: Right. Any other issues, 7 c o ncerns? All right, we're putting this off until 8 t o morrow, as I understand it, unless there's an 9 o b jection, raise your hand. And Jill's going to check 10 o v ernight on her concern to see if it's been addressed 11 o r if it can be addressed. 12 MS. HOOTMAN: Part of that is the model 13 d i scussion we're going to get to. 14 MR. EISNER: Yeah. Now if we do not finish 15 t h e model testing -- 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's been like a horror of my 17 l i fe for two years. 18 MS. HOOTMAN: There's a lot of things hanging 19 o u t there. 20 MR. EISNER: Yeah. We will put Ashley's 21 b i rthing off for another few weeks. 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Oh no, we won't.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 239 1 MR. EISNER: One of the things to consider, 2 t h ink about it overnight, is whether you want to vote 3 o n agreeing with this, subject to the resolution of the 4 i s sues that we're going to face in the separate rule 5 m a king, so that the first rule making can go ahead. 6 And the condition would be that an individual 7 h a s a right to go back and change the vote on this 8 i s sue if not happy with the vote on grouping issues and 9 w h atever else might be related. 10 So I'm not saying let's discuss it now. I'm 11 n o t saying let's vote now, let's put that off to 12 t o morrow, but be prepared to discuss that, because 13 a g ain DOE has said, they want to move ahead with the 14 o t her rulemaking, and I don't think we're going to 15 f i nish grouping tomorrow at the rate we're going, at 16 l e ast from what I've been told about the difficulty of 17 t h e issue. 18 MR. MYERS: This is Frank. When I look at 19 t h at, when I look at the two, and four, and six, and 20 e i ght, what I'm really seeing is units tested within 21 w h atever you're certifying with that AEDM. And so does 22 i t really in somehow a basic model group?

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 240 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't think it matters. 2 MR. MYERS: If we're saying -- and we will 3 h a ve to identify this model is certified under this 4 A E DM so the DOE will know what AEDM is being used. But 5 i f you're looking at a single AEDM, if they test five 6 o f the same model, which they wouldn't do, but if they 7 t e sted five, that's five tests. If you fail them all 8 t h at's five tests you failed. 9 So I don't see where basic model group in 10 t h is instance comes into play. It looks like we have 11 e v erything we need for you to go back and talk to your 12 f o lks because I don't think -- a decision on basic 13 m o del group, as I see it now, I don't see where that 14 i m pacts this. 15 MR. WHITWELL: It changes the denominator 16 w h en you start to look at percentages. 17 MR. MYERS: Where are percentages on there? 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well it's this right here. 19 MR. WHITWELL: Well, I mean if you take those 20 n u mbers there and you say what percentage of units are 21 b e ing tested, if it's 100 basic models, then you know 22 t h at's -- so two, it's one percent, right. I mean,

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 241 1 i t 's two percent. 2 MR. MYERS: So you have concerns that DOE 3 w i ll be testing a hundred basic models? 4 MR. WHITWELL: No, no, no. If it's a -- 5 l e t's say, depending on what the basic model definition 6 i s , if we have a hundred, then we're talking about two 7 p e rcent failures to get to the first one. I don't have 8 a -- I mean that's not something that I expect we would 9 e v er get to. 10 But if it's, you know, worst case, we're 11 t a lking about millions of basic models, you know I 12 d o n't know how many units DOE is expecting to test, but 13 t w o units is a very small percentage of the -- 14 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. And throwing out an 15 A E DM on those two -- 16 MR. DOPPEL: But if you still had two 17 f a ilures. If you had two failures -- 18 MR. WHITMAN: Until we know what the basic 19 m o del definition is, we don't know what percentage this 20 r e presents. 21 MS. HOOTMAN: That's just the point. If you 22 h a d two failures that --

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 242 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: How about this? How about of 2 t h ree? 3 MS. HOOTMAN: And millions of models. 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: And then the next major -- 5 MR. DOPPEL: Okay, Paul Doppel with 6 M i tsubishi. No, but it doesn't, to me, what I'm 7 u n derstanding though, if you had two failures, it 8 d o esn't matter how many models or whatever you have, 9 y o u still have two failures and that applies. 10 MS. BARHYDT: That's the way it's written I 11 g u ess. 12 MR. MYERS: It's little bitty manufacturers 13 t h at get hit. I might have an AEDM that covers four 14 u n its, four model numbers. And if I have two failures, 15 t h ey had tested 50 percent of what I might make out of 16 t h at in three years. 17 MR. DOPPEL: Yeah, well, if you had four 18 m o dels then it would make more sense to just test all 19 f o ur models. 20 MR. MYERS: And I might do that. I might do 21 t h at. But what I'm saying is it's the very small 22 m a nufacturers that would be at the very risk of this.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 243 1 MR. EISNER: Could it be a percentage of 2 w h atever is agreed to -- 3 MR. DOPPEL: I think percentage makes more 4 s e nse. 5 MS. MEYERS: Then the consequence applies 6 b e cause 50 percent of your models are, you know. 7 MR. EISNER: Yeah, so if it said -- 8 MS. MEYERS: But if it's .0002 percent of 9 y o ur models then the consequences -- 10 MR. THARP: For the purposes thus, until we 11 d i scuss basic models, can we just say levels AE and CE? 12 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Yeah, that sounds 13 b e tter. 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, let's just leave it for 15 n o w. We're going to come back to it regardless. 16 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Let's come back to it. 17 MR. EISNER: Okay. Before we take a break, 18 I ' ve been holding a question since we began this 19 d i scussion because I think it related to the last 20 i s sue. Could we - - side conversations, if you're 21 g o ing to pay the extra cost for the court reporter for 22 r e cording your side conversations, just to warn you,

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 244 1 y o u're on probation now. 2 Okay, Massoud Neshan, if I've done his name 3 j u stice, asked how could we -- and I think this was the 4 p r ior issue, how could we test two models when we 5 d e sign and manufacturer only one custom piece of CRE? 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: They only make one model, 7 p e riod? 8 MR. SHEBIK: Yeah. 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: With everything? It doesn't 10 s a y that. I don't need to test -- 11 MR. SHEBIK: That's the question, though. 12 T h at's what he's asking. 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, but I'm not testing two 14 u n its of a given model, I'm testing two things that 15 h e 's offering, period. So he's not -- I mean 16 r e gardless of whether he's making one custom built unit 17 f o r a given person, that doesn't matter. 18 I imagine for customer B he could also be 19 m a king one custom unit. And if I happen to test both 20 o f them and they're both off, he gets two. 21 MR. AMRANE: No, but let's say he doesn't 22 w a nt to make a -- he doesn't want to develop an AEDM.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 245 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Then it doesn't matter. This 2 i s -- 3 MR. AMRANE: No, but how many does he have to 4 t e st? He's making just one, so he's not -- 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: We haven't gotten there yet. 6 T h at's in the low -- 7 MR. EISNER: But that's another discussion. 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: We haven't gotten there yet. 9 MR. AMRANE: That's his question. 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: We haven't gotten there yet. 11 MR. AMRANE: that's his question. 12 MR. EISNER: Massoud, does that answer your 13 q u estion? Are you online? 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right now it's two, the 15 a n swer is two. A minimum of two. But that's why one 16 o f the negotiating things was low build to a custom 17 f r ame. 18 MR. EISNER: Okay. 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: One-offs. What do we do with 20 t h em? How do we deal with them? 21 MR. EISNER: You guys have been good. I'm 22 g o ing to give you a 15-minute break.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 246 1 MR. AMRANE: Thank you. 2 MR. EISNER: Come back in 15 minutes. 3 (Brief recess.) 4 MR. EISNER: Laura, do you want to say 5 a n ything introductory? 6 MS. BARHYDT: Oh boy. 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think you want me to go 8 h e re. 9 MS. BARHYDT: Well, so actually what I would 10 l i ke to do is go through the slides that Ashley 11 p r epared. It raises a lot of different issues, but I 12 t h ink my preference would be to not go through line-by13 l i ne. 14 Because I'd like to -- I'd really like to sit 15 a n d have a conversation and hear your different 16 t h oughts on how you would like to see groupings made. 17 S o go through these slides and think about some of the 18 i s sues that they raise and how you might want to deal 19 w i th those issues, and then let's talk about it, not 20 g o ing slide-by- slide. 21 MR. EISNER: And let's keep an open focus on 22 t h is. Don't think of the DOE rule, think of how DOE

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 247 1 c a n satisfy its requirements, its obligations, to be 2 a b le to write and enforce rules. So don't say well, we 3 c a n't live with this, we can't live with that; say what 4 y o u think they could do that will work for you and will 5 w o rk for them. 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay, so I'm going to go 7 t h rough some of the slides and at least touch on some 8 h i gh points to start the discussion. So the whole 9 p r emise behind this is that we've gotten to this point 10 b y coming up with valid methods of rating. So at this 11 p o int you have the tools you need to rate your 12 e q uipment. 13 So it becomes, how should manufacturers group 14 i n dividual models for the purposes of ratings? From 15 D O E's perspective, I think individual models may be 16 g r ouped, however they must share the same certified 17 r a ting, and then obviously some potential outcomes of 18 t e sting are on the slide. 19 So some options here, right, for product 20 g r ouping. You can certify each individual model. It 21 m e ans every single model in the DOE's database is a 22 c e rtified model. Provides consumer with the

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 248 1 i n formation on every single specific model. You can 2 c e rtify as a basic model. 3 And don't get caught up in the nomenclature 4 h e re, we're just trying to explain what exists today 5 a n d maybe some of the differences. 6 It consists of an aggregation of individual 7 m o dels sharing certain attributes, such as capacity, 8 e f ficiency rating, utility. We realize this is our 9 c u rrent definition and obviously the word in red is 10 e s sentially identical would be the issue. 11 And then there's a thing of, a concept of 12 b a sic model group and it consists of an aggregation of 13 b a sic models that have common design principles. These 14 d o not need to have a common efficiency, or capacity as 15 w e understand it, the efficiency of all models in the 16 g r oup can be derived from testing of a few. 17 So these are some concepts that are kind of 18 i n the marketplace today. This is kind of how we did a 19 s c hematic to help us understand things a little bit. 20 S o you have a given production model which is at the 21 i n dividual model stage. 22 You have two routes at that point. You can

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 249 1 e s timate its performance through an AEDM, or you can 2 t e st it. Obviously you're testing -- you have to test 3 a subset to validate the AEDM, but assuming we've 4 g o tten to that pathway, from there you can either go 5 d i rectly to certifying the basic model, or you can 6 g r oup common engineering platforms with multiple 7 e f ficiencies and capacities. You specify common 8 e f ficiency capacities as a basic model group, and then 9 y o u would certify them accordingly with a given rating. 10 MR. DOPPEL: Ashley, a point of 11 c l arification. It seems that on the right-hand side 12 t h at there is allowing, where it says BMGs in the small 13 r e ctangle, that that's allowing multiple efficiencies. 14 A n d yet when you drop down, it's disallowing multiple 15 e f ficiencies. 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Go to the lowest, right. Or 17 y o u could. The idea here -- I mean that is a 18 d i stinction right, between the two, is that, you know. 19 I guess it goes back to what is the purpose of a 20 r a ting, and what is the purpose of developing a rating? 21 And if you assume that that the purpose of 22 d e veloping a rating is that for a given set of models,

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 250 1 o r a given model, you want the consumer, you want the 2 D e partment, you want to be able to make a claim about 3 t h at model's performance. 4 That is done through a unique rating, not a 5 r a nge of ratings, not a -- so to us, I guess the 6 q u estion becomes how do you span multiple efficiencies 7 a n d then get to the goal of coming up with, you know, 8 f o r the purposes of selecting a rating for determining 9 w h at that group represents. How do you do it today? 10 MR. RIVEST: This is Michael Rivest. So when 11 w e tried to map out all these different terms are being 12 t h rown out there and try to understand what's really 13 n e eded, and what's needed for what reason. So DOE 14 d e finitely has a need to have a database where there's 15 a one-to-one correspondence between a product to the 16 m a rket, its model number, and the model number in the 17 d a tabase. 18 And I understand that sometimes there are 19 s t ars that represent the fact that those stars can be 20 a n y of a series of letters or numbers, but that still 21 a l lows a one-to-one correspondence between the number 22 i n the certified database to what the product offering.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 251 1 S o that becomes an individual model certification. 2 Sometimes there might be a grouping, we see 3 i t mostly through brands, when a manufacturer may 4 o p erate under multiple brands, and for that reason 5 w e 'll have multiple model numbers. So going from a 6 c e rtified individual model to a certified basic model 7 i s typically more, has more to do with the brands. 8 Going, however, from a certified model to 9 t h is whole area we've been talking about of AEDMs, it 10 s t ruck us that the basic model grouping concept, with 11 t h e ability to rate multiple products using common 12 e n gineering, if you will, principles, there was a lot 13 o f , a big relationship between the AEDM and the basic 14 m o del group. 15 So having mapped this out, first of all, does 16 t h is seem to correspond to your understanding of these 17 t e rms and how they're being applied? And I guess I 18 d o n't -- you know, we're trying to figure what needs to 19 c h ange, or what is misunderstood, or what is -- what's 20 t h e problem basically. 21 We think the sampling that's being done under 22 t h e verification program for AHRI is under basic model

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 252 1 g r oupings, the 30 percent per year. Is that the same 2 t h ing as what we've been talking about? Each AEDM is a 3 b a sic model group or would an AEDM go across multiple 4 b a sic model groups? 5 So we need to have some conversation about 6 t h at. But certainly the concept of grouping is 7 p e rmissible, in terms of rating, with the AEDM. 8 MR. HALLEY: I have a question. Geoff 9 H a lley. With the boiler industry, traditionally, 10 c e rtainly in the fire tube industry, they're designed 11 t o a certain number of square feet of heating surface 12 p e r boiler horsepower. That's one parameter they use, 13 s i mple number, right? 14 Then they also have another thing they look 15 a t for furnace heat release or combustion chamber heat 16 r e lease. And over a multitude of years and experience, 17 t h ey know that if you go above a certain number, you're 18 p r obably going to get unstable combustion. 19 In other words, it's going to pulsate. It's 20 g o ing to frighten the heck out of people. So we want 21 t o keep below that number. With the advent of LO-NOx 22 b u rners you may want to go to a slightly lower number

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 253 1 t h an the one that would keep you out of combustion 2 p u lsations. 3 When you use that and you can run simulations 4 o n something like a spreadsheet, Excel spreadsheet, you 5 c a n come up with a line of boilers, all of which are 6 g o ing to be roughly the same efficiency, within a very 7 c l ose tolerance. 8 Now there may be -- the tendency has been 9 f o r, over a line of say 30 boilers, from say 50 10 h o rsepower to 750 horsepower, you would pick certain 11 c r oss sections where the cross section is identical 12 o v er probably three or four models. 13 So over that 30 boiler model number product 14 l i ne, you've got say seven cross sections, six or seven 15 c r oss sections, and they're just stretched the length 16 o f the boiler to get the increased heating surface. 17 When you do that and your efficiency, which I 18 p r esume is your rating, the efficiency; right? The 19 e f ficiency comes out very close. Is it one, one basic 20 m o del or is it six or seven basic models, or is it 30 21 b a sic models? 22 MR. RIVEST: That's the subject for today.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 254 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, that's the way we 2 h a ve that right now. If the efficiency is -- 3 MR. RIVEST: It is not one basic -- I mean in 4 t h is construct, you've described a basic model group. 5 MR. HALLEY: Okay. 6 MR. RIVEST: Okay? 7 MR. HALLEY: Yeah. 8 MR. RIVEST: And then you -- to certify a 9 b a sic model would be your 10 horsepower fire tube with 10 a certain cross section. 11 MR. HALLEY: So there would be seven basic 12 m o dels in the 30? 13 MR. RIVEST: You would have seven -- I mean 14 t h e way I understand what you described, there is seven 15 b a sic model groups. 16 MR. HALLEY: Okay. Okay. 17 MR. RIVEST: Now the sampling for 18 v e rification testing would be based at that level of 19 a g gregation, say 30 percent of that, right? 20 MR. HALLEY: Right. 21 MR. RIVEST: No one's ever going to say 30 22 p e rcent individual models or basic models. You know,

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 255 1 t h e percentages would change down to three percent, or 2 t w o percent. But -- and the reason I'm lumping them as 3 b a sic model groups is because, the way you described 4 i t , you have an AEDM that allows you to rate a whole 5 f a mily of models, stretching it, using math. 6 MR. HALLEY: Right. 7 MR. RIVEST: But that math may not apply when 8 y o u start changing a cross section. 9 MR. HALLEY: Right. 10 MR. RIVEST: Now theoretically you could 11 c r eate a spreadsheet that's just more complicated. 12 MR. HALLEY: Yeah. The principle difference 13 a c tually in efficiency is with the smaller models you 14 g e t a higher radiant loss from the jacket of the 15 b o iler, because with the larger units, it can be a 16 q u arter of one percent or it may be a couple of 17 p e rcent, but they're smaller and that's really the 18 d i fference. 19 MR. AMRANE: I think we start with the 20 c u rrent definition. The current definition DOE has 21 m e ans that you cannot group products with different 22 e f ficiencies.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 256 1 MS. BARHYDT: So I actually -- 2 MR. RIVEST: For what purposes? 3 MS. BARHYDT: Hold, hold, hold -- 4 MR. AMRANE I don't know. 5 MR. RIVEST: But what I'm saying for what 6 p u rposes? What are you saying are not allowed to 7 g r oup? You know, where are you talking? 8 MR. AMRANE: I'm looking at the definition 9 t h at DOE has, that you had on the slide. 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, but for what? That's 11 w h at he's asking. For the purposes of rating, for 12 c e rtifying? 13 MR. AMRANE: Yes. 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: For making representations? 15 MR. AMRANE: For certification. 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Or for coming up for testing? 17 B e cause there's two very different things. 18 MR. AMRANE: Well, first of all to certify to 19 D O E, to listings in your database, things like that. 20 A n d the reason why we came up with the basic model 21 g r oup in the first place, a long time ago, was to 22 r e duce the amount of testing, because certain products

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 257 1

- - I mean if you had to group -- if you had to have all 2 t h e models as a basic model, as defined by DOE, that 3 t h e number of tests would be impossible to manage. 4 Now we have the AEDM today, which was not 5 t h ere before, which resolves a lot of those issues, but 6 s t ill there are products, let's say for example ice 7 m a kers, for which there is no AEDM today. 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's not part of that. So 9 w h y are you going to bring it into it. 10 MR. AMRANE: I know. But we need to keep 11 t h at in mind because it's going to be an issue -- 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's not part of the 13 n e gotiations though. It's not -- 14 MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel from Mitsubishi. An 15 i m portant part of what Karim and I mentioned was that 16 w h en you have more models included, that also increases 17 t h e risk. Because if you have a failure, then 18 e v erything that's in that group is, you know has the, 19 w h atever the penalty action is taken against that. If 20 t h e rating is reduced, then the rating's reduced on all 21 o f them, not just that one that's been tested. 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: But you're talking about the

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 258 1 r a ting, a rating, a singular rating. So what is in 2 y o ur database that -- 3 MR. DOPPEL: No. 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: You are. 5 MR. DOPPEL: No, not in -- not what we're 6 t a lking about is not a single rating. What we're -- 7 l i ke if you again -- 8 MR. RIVEST: But you just said everything 9 f i ts. 10 MR. DOPPEL: The easiest example is a 11 t h ree ton condenser matched with 10 different 12 c o mbinations of coils, furnaces, air handlers, they all 13 h a ve different ratings, but that's treated as one model 14 g r oup. And if one of those -- and then there's an arm 15 t h at helps to do -- 16 MR. RIVEST: Is that a certified rating or 17 p e rformance? 18 MR. DOPPEL: Each one of those would have a 19 c e rtified rating, but if it's because it's a basic 20 m o del group for testing, if any one of those 21 c o mbinations is selected and fails -- 22 MR. RIVEST: Are you speaking about

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 259 1 r e sidential or commercial? 2 MR. DOPPEL: It applies, it applies. It's 3 j u st an easy concept. 4 MR. WHITWELL: It could be three phase, three 5 p h ase systems aren't -- 6 MR. DOPPEL: Yeah. 7 MR. RIVEST: Well we would take -- we spend 8 s o me time in your database and that's -- 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: A lot of time. 10 MR. RIVEST: And that's not a lot of -- 11 t h at's not what we're seeing. What we're seeing, from 12 w h at we can tell, what you're reporting would fit DOE's 13 r e quirements for a basic model. So that's why we're 14 h a ving trouble understanding the problem because we're 15 n o t seeing a problem -- 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right; you have a given set 17 o f model numbers, whether it be representative of a 18 s y stem or a package unit, whatever it is. And you have 19 a singular number there for representation. You don't 20 h a ve a range. 21 You don't have a range of capacities, you 22 h a ve a singular set of values, and that's what's in --

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 260 1 y o u all may do it slightly differently, you know in 2 t e rms of how you get to that singular number, but from 3 w h at we were able to tell by a lot of digging and a lot 4 o f analyzing, was that everyone has a singular set of 5 n u mbers. 6 Some have 300, some have 1,000, but at the 7 e n d of the day you come out with a singular set of 8 p e rformance characteristics and you say this is my set 9 o f performance characteristics for my, what do you call 10 t h at, is that your basic model group or do you call 11 t h at -- what is that? 12 MR. ARMANE: It's a model. 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: So okay, so for that model, 14 y o u have a singular set of characteristics. That is 15 t h e exact same thing we call basic model. There is no 16 d i fference. 17 MR. AMRANE: But the difference is that we 18 c e rtify the basic refrigeration cycle. We don't 19 c e rtify the equipment with all the, with all the 20 c o mponents that can be added, all the fans that can be 21 a d ded. So we don't do all that. 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: So that's a different --

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 261 1 MR. AMRANE: That's a very different problem. 2 MR. EISNER: If I can stop everyone. I think 3 t h e purpose of this was to talk about what the existing 4 s i tuation is, give you information and then talk about 5 w h at the rule ought to say. 6 Not what it says now, not how we amend the 7 r u le, but how we create a new rule, this could be the 8 e x isting rule, but we create a new rule that both sides 9 c a n live with, or all sides can live with, because I 10 t h ink there are multiple sides represented around the 11 t a ble. 12 I don't think we're here now to argue what's 13 w r ong with the current rule. We're here to talk about 14 t h e briefing, make sure we all understand it, and then 15 t o say all right, what should be in a good rule? 16 How should we define -- whatever terms we 17 w a nt to use. We don't have to use basic model group. 18 W e don't have to use model group. Whatever you guys 19 w h o are all around the table think is the best way to 20 s o lve the problem. 21 MR. RIVEST: Okay just, right now, say 22 t h ere's a seven-and-a-half ton rooftop. It has a model

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 262 1 n u mber and it has a number of stars, okay, and there's 2 a singular rating. So our understanding of those stars 3 i s that those are variables. 4 They could represent different indoor units. 5 T h ey could represent different configurations of 6 a c cessories, and that is where you're saying that 7 t h at's your grouping. 8 The seven-an-a-half ton, this many SEER is -- 9 o r EERs, what you're holding constant for that group. 10 MS. HOOTMAN: Is it practical? 11 MR. RIVEST: All right. So we understand 12 t h at. Where it's not clear, and we're just going to 13 t a lk about it, is -- we have a slide. 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Do you want this one? 15 MS. HOOTMAN: So take -- this is Jill from 16 T r ane so I want to take that example. I have a YC*090. 17 T h at's a gas electric. The asterisk means down flow or 18 h o rizontal, 090, seven-and-a-half ton, just like you 19 w e re describing. 20 Okay, I'm going to say that for my down flow 21 a n d my horizontal, it is all the same rating. But, 22 t h at -- and I've chosen that, for whatever reason I

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 263 1 c h ose that. 2 MR. RIVEST: You all do it differently, by 3 t h e way. 4 MS. HOOTMAN: Right, right. And I've chosen 5 t h at. And I've chosen that -- I'm going to tell you a 6 l i ttle bit of why we've chosen it that way. We've 7 c h osen it that way because of the basic model grouping, 8 w e 're all looking at how much testing burden we have. 9 Because that testing burden, in dollars, is 10 w h at we have to do in AHRI. It's significant, multi11 m i llions in my case. 12 MR. RIVEST: Just to clarify, when you talk 13 a b out testing, are you talking about the burden of 14 v e rification testing of this 30 percent? 15 MS. HOOTMAN: The certification testing that 16 I do through AHRI every year. 17 MR. RIVEST: Okay, but if that 30 percent 18 r e quirement wasn't there, if it just wasn't there, 19 r i ght, because you chose to define it at the basic 20 m o del group. 21 MS. HOOTMAN: Well yeah, let me just finish. 22 S o we all do this within ourselves. We decide where do

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 264 1 w e want to take the marketing benefit of making 2 d i stinct efficiency ratings versus how much will that 3 i n crease our basic model groups and therefore increase 4 o u r testing, and so we're always looking at those two 5 t h ings. 6 How are you going to logically group them, 7 a l ong the refrigeration system lines, versus where you 8 w a nt to take marketing benefit? That model grouping, 9 a n d I would say most cases, doesn't answer the 10 i n trinsically inherent whatever language that is. 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's much different, right. 12 B u t the idea here would be that you do place a singular 13 r a ting around a set of models right now, for the 14 p u rposes of making representations; right? And 15 f u ndamentally the Department's concept with 16 c e rtification is just about that. How should you make 17 r e presentation -- how should representations be made? 18 A n d they have to be made with a singular set of 19 c h aracteristics. 20 Now, how many units need to be tested, we've 21 g o tten through. Now what happens post in terms of if 22 D O E had a verification program or were to recognize an

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 265 1 i n dustry program, the minimum or maximum units that 2 w o uld be pulled for verification is a different issue. 3 B u t for the purposes of actually making representations 4 a n d coming up with, this is what I'm claiming is my 5 r a ting, for which you can then base a verification 6 p r ogram on, or a subsequent testing on, there has to be 7 s o me way to say okay, this is how I want to group my 8 m o dels. 9 You know, language aside, we can change 10 l a nguage of the existing regs. We shouldn't be caught 11 u p on that. But the idea that, you know, it's a range 12 o f efficiencies, that's just not how it seems to us 13 t h at it's implemented in your directory. There is a 14 s i ngular set of product characteristics associated with 15 a given model. 16 MS. HOOTMAN: It would be a range of 17 e f ficiencies if you were to pick some of the asterisks, 18 t h ose stars, and pick some of the items in there, it 19 w o uld probably be a range of efficiencies. 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right, but you go -- 21 MS. HOOTMAN: So because those things may, in 22 f a ct, change the efficiency.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 266 1 MR. RIVEST: So, I think what you're doing, 2 a n d what DOE wants, is in perfect accord. 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's the same. 4 MR. RIVEST: Where sometimes I'm hearing 5 d i verging voices and reading divergent things in the 6 c o mments, is there seem to be some of those asterisks 7 t h at end up actual products being built to different 8 s t atics, that if you were to test those, they would be 9 b e low the certified value. And it's not clear. And I 10 c o uld see how it would be difficult to put that in 11 w r iting. 12 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. 13 MR. RIVEST: But you know, what's being said 14 h e re is that the certified value is the lowest common 15 d e nominator and that everything else is going to be 16 h i gher. So if you were to just randomly pick anything 17 f o r substituting those asterisks by letters and 18 n u mbers, they would all meet. That's what I'm hearing 19 b u t that's not always what I'm hearing. 20 MR. HURST: John Hurst from Lennox. We 21 t a lked about this at lunch. An example might be miles 22 p e r gallon on an automobile; okay? So maybe a weak

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 267 1 a n alogy, but if you put a boat behind an automobile, 2 t h e gas mileage would go down. 3 MR. EISNER: Wait. She's not going to be 4 a b le to get this. Okay, I'm sorry, go ahead. 5 MR. HURST: If you put a boat behind a 6 v e hicle, the gas mileage is going to go down, or if you 7 d r ive in mountainous terrain, so it depends on the 8 o p tion that the customer selects and the application. 9 S o I think generally speaking we agree, but the devil's 10 i n the details, you say what about this coding and what 11 a b out this option. 12 MR. RIVEST: I think the devil is in the 13 d e tails once you get down there because we agree with 14 e v erybody. And we kind of laid out four types of design 15 o p tions that you might, you call accessories. Some of 16 t h ose accessories inherently bring more utility to the 17 p r oduct. 18 MR. HURST: Right. 19 MR. RIVEST: But it may not be captured in 20 t h e test procedure. So is that test procedure waiver 21 i s sue? You know we've heard of things like economizers 22 b e ing installed and they're creating static pressure

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 268 1 i s sues maybe. 2 MR. HURST: Right, sure. 3 MR. RIVEST: So in that case it seems 4 l e gitimate to not penalize someone who has an 5 e c onomizer put on their system. 6 MS. HOOTMAN: So, okay. So to further what I 7 w a s saying, so I had this gas electric that's seven8 a n d- a-half ton. It's a down flow or horizontal. That 9 e c onomizer, okay, if the Department checked that and 10 w a nted the economizer and I sent you the economizer, 11 t h e economizer would not be energized at the 80, 67, 95 12 p o int, but it creates static. I'm not portraying 13 s o mething in my ratings for that necessarily. 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct. Right. 15 MS. HOOTMAN: So the ratings will now be 16 l o wer. 17 MR. RIVEST: So I think we should just face 18 t h at head on and come up with a fix. 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: That is the real issue. That 20 i s the difference, right. I mean -- 21 MR. RIVEST: So now there are categories we 22 s e e where there's added utility that's not being

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 269 1 c a ptured by the test procedure. There are certain 2 c i rcumstances where there might be a feature there that 3 i t 's questionable how -- certainly it may not have an 4 a d ded energy benefit, it may have an added utility to 5 t h e client. So I've read about thicker filters. 6 MR. FLY: Let me bring one, just for an 7 e x ample. Let's say we're building a unit, we have a 8 c u stomer that wants to build an operating suite in a 9 h o spital. Operating suites in hospitals, for anybody 10 t h at's in the business, know that there are all kinds 11 o f junk onto those -- extra filters, external, they run 12 a t very high static pressure. 13 My five ton unit that's feeding this small 14 o p erating suite, which is going to be tested at two15 t e nths of an inch, under AHRI conditions, with a three 16 h o rsepower motor, may all of a sudden have a 20 17 h o rsepower motor to overcome all the extra stuff that 18 g o es in a hospital operating suite. 19 MR. RIVEST: Right. 20 MR. FLY: If I take that 20 horsepower motor 21 a n d I run it at two-tenths of an inch per static, I'm 22 g o ing to be so far off the motor efficiency curve it's

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 270 1 g o ing to be a terrible unit. 2 MR. RIVEST: Now we understand that. So -- 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, we use that as our 4 e x ample when we were talking about that. 5 MR. RIVEST: So let's come up with a fix to 6 t h at because again -- 7 MR. FLY: Today, I don't list that with a 20 8 h o rsepower motor as my basic model. 9 MR. RIVEST: And so it's not -- 10 MR. FLY: But I sell that in that 11 a p plication. 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Exactly. 13 MS. HOOTMAN: And so, yeah, when I was 14 f i nishing my seven-and-a-half ton description and the 15 e c onomizer, when AHRI comes and gets my model, I don't 16 p r ovide them a unit with an economizer. 17 MR. RIVEST: We get it. So the real thing 18 w e 'd be trying to avoid is that because it'll never get 19 s e lected, it doesn't give a loophole for, not someone 20 i n this room but someone else, to put a really, really 21 t e rrible 20 horsepower motor -- 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: In everything.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 271 1 MR. RIVEST: So how do we -- 2 MR. FLY: But if you want to rate that at 3 f o ur- and-a-half inches of external static, then it's 4 n o longer an 11 EER unit anymore. So the numbers have 5 t o change. So we have to come out and say okay, an 6 e i ght's okay for that application. 7 MR. RIVEST: Well, that's how we -- 8 MR. FLY: And then we've got all this whole 9 m a p of well, you know, what about this static? What 10 a b out this static? It's an infinite number of 11 c o nditions. So if we're just trying to compare unit to 12 u n it, that's a reason I think AHRI has evolved into 13 l e t's just look at the refrigeration system because the 14 f a n system is so much different. 15 MS. HOOTMAN: And if we step back and talk 16 a b out our -- yeah. And I think if we step back and 17 t a lk about what does the customer do, the customer 18 n e ver looks at that and says, this is going to be my in 19 b u ilding, my application grading. 20 They're using that more as a miles per gallon 21 a s a comparison to okay, I'm going to get something 22 a r ound this, or I'm going to get something that's

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 272 1 h i gher. They're using that around those kind of 2 p a rameters, and then they're going to add all the stuff 3 t h at is unique to their building. 4 MR. KLEISS: So you're saying that's an 5 a p ples- to-apples comparison against competitors. 6 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. Yes, it's an apples-to7 a p ples against competitors, but it's not necessarily 8 h o w that's going to work in that building because all 9 o f them are going to work completely different, each 10 a p plication is different. And they're all going to 11 s e lect -- back in the day, 30 years ago, none of this 12 s t uff was on our equipment. They got a basic unit. 13 T h ey have evolved to the point that they want us to put 14 a l l this stuff on it, and they know, a consulting 15 e n gineer knows when he puts that building together, 16 t h at that isn't what, at AHRI I'm not ever going to see 17 t h at point. 18 I'm going to map my characteristics for it 19 a n d there's energy modeling tools for that building 20 w i th those specific things on that they could 21 e v entually figure out what the energy model is for that 22 b u ilding in that application, how it's going to do

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 273 1 a c ross that map. But it's not that one little point, 2 E E R at that particular set of finite conditions. 3 MR. STARR: I would say that's part of the 4 p r oblem in industry right now. If you're reading the 5 l e ad things, they talk about how buildings don't 6 p e rform and how energy models are problematic. It is 7 e x actly that. 8 They're using the ratings right off of the 9 u n its because there's nothing else and you stick that 10 i n there for the power curve of how you model your 11 b u ilding over the course of 876 hours and using the 12 S E ER ratings and the air rate, EER rates are part of 13 h o w you model that. And they're sticking in some basic 14 n u mbers that are coming from the AHRI because there 15 i s n't any other data other than that. 16 The other thing I notice is we were talking 17 a b out miles per gallon and we had the analogy of 18 p u lling a boat behind the car. If you think about it, 19 a n d you buy a car down at the dealership, you would 20 e x pect that part of the rating, that 25 miles per 21 g a llon includes the trunk. 22 Every unit over 20 tons automatically has

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 274 1 e c onomizers because it's required by code. So this is 2 n o t a boat, it's part of the car. And so the EER 3 r a tings, and the ratings are not showing up with those 4 t h ings in there. It allows the apple-to-apple 5 c o mparison, but what it doesn't tell you is actually 6 h o w you're using -- how energy's being used in there 7 b e cause as in a car, you definitely get a trunk whether 8 y o u want one or not; it's not the boat. 9 MR. AMRANE: But your example is not right 10 e x actly because the economizer is going to save you a 11 l o t of energy. So that's not the right example at all. 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: No, so I mean, I think that's 13 a good segue; right? I mean I see this as multiple 14 b u ckets; right? I mean, in my opinion there are things 15 t h at -- like we tried to make a grid up here, and one 16 t h ing doesn't show up on this grid, but there are 17 t h ings in the DOE test procedure that would result in a 18 h i gher energy use, and then also when, you know, when 19 a d ded in the field, would result in a higher energy 20 u s e. 21 And to us those are the issue; you shouldn't 22 b e adding things to a base model. Well I don't know,

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 275 1 t h ose are part of the discussion that's at issue. 2 Things that would result in a higher test 3 p r ocedure energy use, like for example an economizer, 4 b u t would result in a lower field energy use, from a 5 p o licies perspective, I mean, we could do this two 6 w a ys. 7 I mean, obviously we want to promote things 8 t h at are not just test procedure but would result in 9 f i eld energy use savings as well, especially when 10 i m plemented correctly. So the hope would be that the 11 t e st procedure accurately accounts for all that, 12 h o wever we all know that the reality is that doesn't 13 a l ways happen. 14 So we've implemented that a number of 15 d i fferent ways. One could be through a grouping, 16 e x plicit grouping allowing certain options to be 17 e x cluded or part of a base. 18 Another option would be, as a test procedure 19 c r edit, such that any differential could get around. 20 A n other option would be -- you know this is all for 21 d i scussion, but you can see how we see this as four 22 d i fferent -- we can see this like these are like four

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 276 1 q u adrants. 2 And what this doesn't pick up is something 3 t h at results in a higher test procedure use than the 4 b a se unit, as well as a higher field energy use, but 5 a l so provides a distinct utility, and is necessary for 6 m a rketing and/or selling purposes. 7 And that's where the deviation -- you know 8 t h is is where the discussion is though. These are your 9 q u adrants that we're talking about. So we still need a 10 d i stinct set of ratings associated with some type of 11 m o del groupings, but to the extent we need to discuss 12 s o mething that does result in a slightly higher test 13 p r ocedure energy use or rating, but you know in the 14 f i eld, it definitely reduces consumption. That's on 15 t h e table for discussion. 16 MR. STARR: Oh, so you want a different 17 a p pliance; like economizers work great in the west, but 18 i n the south you probably use them very much because 19 t h ere's not that many hours a year. So I guess it's 20 o n e of those things you're trying to balance across the 21 w h ole nation to figure out the energy savings for the - 22

-

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 277 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. 2 MR. STARR: Okay. 3 MR. WHITWELL: This is Bob Whitwell from 4 C a rrier. I think this is great. We need to be looking 5 a t the EER energy recovery and the economizers and 6 t h at. But I mean the other point that I would make is 7 t h at even the heat exchanger coatings, if you look over 8 t h e life of the product, that product with those 9 c o atings in a SEACOs application is going to give a lot 10 b e tter performance than one that doesn't have it and 11 t h e fins are all gone. So you know it's not -- I don't 12 t h ink there's anything that's black and white, right? 13 MS. MEYERS: Right. And also -- 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: But at some point, we have to 15 d r aw lines; right? 16 MR. WHITWELL: I understand. 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, there have to be some 18 t y pe of thresholds, and that's what we're trying to do. 19 I mean the problem we had when we tried to analyze the 20 d i rectory was that all of you do it slightly 21 d i fferently. And while that's great, it's really hard 22 t o build a regulatory program around that.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 278 1 We want to provide you flexibility and we 2 w a nt to incentivize not only better test procedure 3 r a tings but better field use; right? Savings in the 4 f i eld as well, and not restrict you from that 5 p e rspective and allow you to be innovative. 6 But at the same time, put some level playing 7 f i eld where model A really is a comparison to model B. 8 S o that's where we are. 9 MS. MEYERS: Well, this is Karen. I'm afraid 10 y o u might get less comparison because, I mean with 11 c o mmercial units, there's typically, I mean there's 12 t o ns of different accessories. It's not just one thing 13 t h at may be added; it could be 30. 14 And so some of them may provide higher field 15 e n ergy use, some of them may provide lower energy use, 16 a n d so how do you come out at the end? And so, and 17 b e cause we all do it, you're actually going to get much 18 l e ss comparison because you're going to be looking at a 19 T r ane product versus a Rheem product that may have 29 20 o p tions, mine may only have 28 options, and I think 21 i t 's going to be much less comparison versus just 22 l o oking at that basic refrigeration system.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 279 1 MR. EISNER: Can you start, Karen, with a 2 b a sic model and then talk about specific add-ons or 3 s u btractions, and what they have, what effect they will 4 h a ve on the overall economy? 5 Again, using the car analogy, they do look at 6 t h e addition of certain equipment that's going to add 7 w e ight to the car. They look at things like air 8 c o nditioners. 9 MS. MEYERS: Well I mean are we going to talk 10 a b out climate zones? Because if I'm driving in a 20 11 m i le per hour wind versus a 50 mile per hour wind, if 12 I ' m pulling a boat that's loaded down -- I mean that's 13 w h at you get into. I'm really not trying to be 14 f a cetious because -- 15 MR. RIVEST: We need to keep this simple, not 16 c o mplicated. 17 MS. MEYERS: Well that's what I think we're 18 t r ying to do but that's -- when you get into commercial 19 e q uipment -- 20 MR. RIVEST: That's okay. We deal with 21 c o mplicated things all day, every day. 22 MS. MEYERS: So that's why I'm saying, I

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 280 1 d o n't know how you can -- 2 MR. RIVEST: This is not the most complicated 3 p r oduct in the world. So I agree; if we started with 4 t h e basic model, and you have the experience to know 5 w h ich are those things that really hurt you when you 6 p u t it on a test, in the test chamber. 7 And let's discuss it. How we either rewrite 8

- - change the sampling plan for verification, rewrite a 9 t e st procedure, suggest that in a next rulemaking we 10 h a ve a separate product class for that product and the 11 s t andard be set lower. I mean there are options here. 12 MR. AMRANE: Could one option be use what we 13 u s e today? 14 MR. RIVEST: No, because we don't know 15 b e cause you're not doing it consistently. 16 MR. EISNER: And that raises another one. 17 MR. RIVEST: It's not required. We spend 18 h o urs in that database. 19 MR. AMRANE: I believe -- 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, you all admitted it 21 j u st a while ago that it's not consistent. You're not 22 d o ing --

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 281 1 MS. MEYERS: It's consistent. Our model 2 n u mber schemes are different, but it's consistent. 3 MR. WHITWELL: It's based on the AHRI 4 d e finition of the basic model. 5 MR. RIVEST: Well, let's just say maybe we 6 j u st need to get more transparency and understanding 7 a b out how different it is when all those options are 8 a d ded from the rated value. 9 MR. EISNER: If you started off with the same 10 b a sic -- with a basic model, and the confusion is over 11 m o del numbers, could you agree to consistent model 12 n u mbers and then you could have a list of additional 13 e q uipment that you offer that can also be compared? 14 A car, this one comes with air conditioning, 15 t h is one doesn't, here's what it would do to fuel 16 e c onomy. This one can tow a vehicle up to 5,000 17 p o unds. If you use it to tow 5,000 pounds, here are the 18 e f fects it would have on your efficiency. 19 Could you agree to some consistency in the 20 w a y you model, use model numbers so that they can look 21 a t it across the database for the entire industry? 22 MR. WHITWELL: Changing model numbers is a

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 282 1 v e ry difficult thing because it means all our systems - 2

- 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, I don't think it's a 4 m o del number anyways. We don't have an issue; you do 5 y o ur model numbers the way you want. 6 MR. EISNER: Right. So are we starting out 7 w i th the idea that you could describe your equipment, 8 r e gardless of the model numbers, in a way that was 9 c o nsistent across the industry? 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. 11 MR. EISNER: So can we then build on that 12 w h ere you then add in your extra equipment, either with 13 d e finitive numbers like an air conditioning unit in a 14 c a r is going to decrease your efficiency if it is used 15 5 0 percent of the time you drive your vehicle, by this 16 a m ount of fuel economy? Could you agree to those kinds 17 o f concepts for the add-ons or the subtractions? 18 MR. AMRANE: I think it's going to be very 19 c o mplicated because of the combinations of those items. 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: You might -- 21 MR. EISNER: But you can describe those in 22 q u alitative terms. Again, maybe we should go back to

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 283 1 t h e purpose of this. Is this to ensure that you're in 2 c o mpliance with the law or is it to ensure that you're 3 g i ving out sufficient information to the consumer so 4 t h ey know what they're getting compared to what your 5 c o mpetitor offers? 6 MR. SACHS: That's where I'd like to 7 i n terject, if I could, because I think that's the key 8 p o int that we've been muddling. That DOE has 9 r e gulatory responsibility for ensuring that everything 10 s o ld in commerce meets the efficiency standard under 11 t h e rating conditions. 12 The manufacturers and their customers have an 13 a d ditional interest in being able to compare products 14 t h at are beyond that level. AHRI is working on other 15 w a ys to do that with performance maps and things like 16 t h at. 17 The question I just want to toss out is what 18 h a ppens if we, for commercial equipment only, I'm not 19 t a lking about residential, if we restrict the 20 c o nversation to what's required to certify compliance 21 w i th maximum consumption or minimum efficiency 22 s t andards?

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 284 1 Just get the DOE out of the question of 2 c o mparability and apples versus apples for above 3 c o mpliant levels. 4 MR. EISNER: What do people feel about that 5 a p proach? 6 MS. HOOTMAN: Harvey, say that again. 7 MR. SACHS: Okay. 8 MS. HOOTMAN: The maximum -- 9 MR. SACHS: The DOE has statutory 10 r e sponsibility for assuring that those in the commerce 11

- - 12 MS. HOOTMAN: Maximum consumption. 13 MR. SACHS: -- has minimal efficiency or 14 m a ximal fuel consumption under the rated conditions. 15 D O E has assumed an implicit responsibility of assuring 16 t h e credibility of ratings that are better than that, 17 b u t I don't think that's -- and that's almost an FTC 18 i s sue for consumer products. 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: We were talking commercial 20 h e re. 21 MR. SACHS: And we're talking commercial. 22 MR. EISNER: And do rated conditions include

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 285 1 t h ings like the climate zone in which it's used? 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: No, they're normalized. 3 MR. FLY: No, they're normalized. And they 4 i n clude a normalized static, so we would test that damn 5 h o spital operating unit setting and simply have to make 6 a n accommodation that says, in application this 7 r e frigeration cycle four operating theater application 8 i s going to be sold with a different motor and it's 9 g o ing to be derated. 10 But thinking about it, it seems to me, 11 l i stening to everyone, that since they are -- AHRI is 12 g o ing down a path of providing additional information 13 t o support engineering models, if the ASHRAE members 14 c a n rise to that level, which we're trying, this might 15 b e a path that simplifies the compliance issue and 16 o p ens the market up for people to do better methods of 17 d o ing the apples-to- apples for beyond code equipment. 18 MR. RIVEST: I think we're years away from 19 g e tting there. 20 MR. SACHS: Oh, we are. 21 MR. RIVEST: That's the problem. We're not 22 t h ere yet.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 286 1 MR. SACHS: We're not there yet and I mean 2 a l l the -- 3 MR. AMRANE: In the case of commercial 4 p r oduct, we're talking about sophisticated consumers. 5 W e 're not talking about individuals who don't know what 6 t h ey are buying. We're talking about engineering firms 7 w h o are specifying the equipment, and they know what 8 t h ey're buying. Okay, they go to the manufacturers and 9 t h ey get the actual rating of the product and they are 10 f i ne. 11 MR. SACHS: Karim, I think that's appropriate 12 f o r some national accounts, and I think about the strip 13 m a ll, too. But I'm trying to advance this argument 14 f o cusing on the compliance issue rather than the 15 c o mparison issue. 16 MS. HOOTMAN: I would say that the owner, the 17 n a tional account, the owner is very sophisticated. 18 A l so that strip mall is built by a sophisticated real 19 e s tate person, real estate trusts, you know those kind 20 o f things. It's nutty. Now I agree that the person 21 t h at comes in and rents it isn't always that 22 s o phisticated in understanding what has been already

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 287 1 s e lected for them when they built that strip mall. 2 But that's been selected for them. That was 3 p r obably under a consulting engineer, likely, and it 4 h a d to go through plan check and all of those kind of 5 t h ings. So I mean, you know, there was some selection. 6 MR. EISNER: We're in final agreement. 7 MS. HOOTMAN: Okay. 8 MR. EISNER: Can I give a chance for Marshall 9 H u nt, who is on the phone, to talk? Marshall? 10 MR. HUNT: Hi, this is Marshall Hunt with 11 ( i naudible) company. Can you hear me? 12 MR. EISNER: Can you speak a little louder? 13 MR. HUNT: Yes. 14 MR. EISNER: Go ahead. 15 MR. HUNT: Can you hear me now? 16 MR. EISNER: Yes. 17 MR. HUNT: Okay. I'm very much in support of 18 w h at Harvey just said because what we really need is to 19 b e able to do simulations on an 87-607 using a climate 20 s p ecific case, both for our energy efficiency standards 21 a n d for our utility program justification as a rebate. 22 W e 've spent millions of dollars in upstream rebates to

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 288 1 d i stributors for high efficiency RTUs and what, the 2 s y stem we have now is working just fine. 3 The big elephant in the room of 343/360 4 s t andard is outdoor air and almost all the RTUs I'm 5 f a miliar with are using an outdoor air panel, a cracked 6 o p en panel, so that they have adequate ventilation to 7 m e et ASHRAE. 8 And the standard does not force you to do 9 t h at test, or even really support the testing, and the 10 a m ount of outdoor fresh air varies to great degrees up 11 a n d down depending on your building application. 12 So that if we keep the outdoor air damper 13 b u ttoned down, you test at the EER position, and we 14 e v entually will have the IEER, that's fine. And then 15 w e will work together with AHRI and ASHRAE to get our 16 p e rformance map. So I'm in support of what Harvey was 17 s a ying. It sounds like if he had final agreement with 18 o t hers. Thank you. 19 MR. EISNER: Should we start putting some 20 t h ings on a blank slide? Is it time to start thinking 21 a b out some of the things that ought to form a basis for 22 t h is issue, for a decision on this issue?

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 289 1 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. I was 2 w o ndering, has there been industry research sponsored 3 b y anyone where we can identify an approximate offset 4 f o r each one of these options to take a more 5 s t atistical approach to say if there's this option you 6 c a n expect this change in the performance, if there's 7 t h is option you can expect this change? 8 MR. EISNER: Anybody know? 9 MS. HOOTMAN: The problem I see with that is 10 y o u don't always know. 11 MR. STEPHENS: It's not exact, but it's 12 c l oser than where we are now. 13 MS. HOOTMAN: We have customers come into us 14 e v ery day to ask us to put things on at the factory 15 t h at I can turn around and say to them, I'll put it on, 16 I don't know what that does to your performance. Okay, 17 t h ey're like yeah, okay. Go ahead, put it on. 18 MR. STEPHENS: Is this something -- 19 MS. HOOTMAN: They accept it all the time. 20 S o that's that one off thing where I mean, well it may 21 e v en be beyond one off. I mean, it's, you know. 22 MR. STEPHENS: But is this something that we

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 290 1 c o uld do data diving in the ASHRAE database to come up 2 w i th a statistical approximation? 3 MR. EISNER: All right, let me ask a question 4 i n terms of the legal requirement that DOE has to 5 r e port the fuel efficiency of the equipment. What do 6 y o u do when there's an add-on that you have no idea 7 w h at it does and the manufacturer has no idea what it 8 d o es? How do you treat that? 9 MS. BARHYDT: When we test a product we're 10 j u st testing the product and so it performs however it 11 p e rforms. 12 MR. EISNER: With or without the equipment 13 t h at the company has asked to be added on? 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I think that's the issue 15 r e ally in and of itself; right? It's what options 16 s h ould be discussed such that either DOE does not ever 17 a c count for them in the differences in the rating, or 18 t h ey are explicitly accounted for and manufacturers 19 k n ow that. 20 The difference here is to use a scheme where 21 t h ere's not a common understanding of those that do 22 v e rsus those that don't gives people different

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 291 1 e x pectations in terms of how they meet the federal 2 m i nimum. So if I say, you know, 10 of these options 3 a r e out, and they can just be subsumed by a base model 4 a n d asterisk, and the base model, you know without 5 t h ose 10 options, is what has to meet the standard, 6 t h en that's fine. But what if I say five are in and 7 t h ese five options do count towards meeting the minimum 8 s t andard and those five would make a minimally 9 c o mpliant unit less efficient. 10 MR. EISNER: Is there a difference between -- 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, that is really the 12 d i scussion here. 13 MR. EISNER: Is there a difference between a 14 m a nufacturer providing a piece of equipment to a client 15 w i thout the add-on equipment in which it meets all the 16 s t andards and then the company coming and saying we 17 w a nt you go come back in and add X piece of equipment, 18 w e know you don't know what its fuel efficiency is? 19 Is the company -- is the manufacturer 20 r e sponsible for meeting the statutory standard under 21 t h at circumstance as opposed to selling them the 22 o r iginal piece of equipment with the add-on?

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 292 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think that's part of the 2 d i scussion here. 3 MR. EISNER: No, this gets into what the 4 s t atute requires. 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, the statute just says - 6

- 7 MS. BARHYDT: Manufacturer. 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- I mean, it just says the 9 m a nufacturer is responsible if they're distributing a 10 p r oduct in commerce. It doesn't specify a base model. 11 I t doesn't specify every model. It just says -- 12 MR. EISNER: So the manufacturer has to know 13 i t s effect on the efficiency or else they're not in 14 c o mpliance with the statute? 15 MS. BARHYDT: Potentially. 16 MR. SACHS: And in point of fact, I think 17 I ' ll try to say what no manufacturer will say I'm wrong 18 a b out or right about. But in point of fact, first of 19 a l l, all of us sitting in this room would rather see 20 t h e manufacturers installing and warranting the 21 o p tions, than the disasters we've had with commercial 22 r o oftops with third party add-ons. We just haven't

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 293 1 b e en able to get good quality in the field. 2 MR. EISNER: Third party add-ons, you mean 3 u n regulated? 4 MR. SACHS: The local contractor saying sure 5 I ' ll add a widget, or doing a bad job on controls. 6 W e 've got hundreds of cases of field studies where 7 p e rformance has fallen short as a result of features 8 a d ded locally. We'd like for the manufacturers to take 9 r e sponsibility and capture some of the value of those 10 f e atures. We'd like to have a certification and 11 c o mpliance system that encourages that rather than 12 d i scouraging that. 13 It is my own conclusion that the 14 c e rtification scheme applied to commercial equipment is 15 a n ill-fitting suit and getting more so by the year and 16 w e 're trying to figure out the lowest common 17 d e nominator to make this system work since we can't 18 j u nk it. And I think that's the really, Neil, what 19 w e 're talking about here. 20 MR. RIVEST: Can I take a slightly different 21 d i rection? The people in this room are in business, 22 t h ey're legitimate companies. Have there been

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 294 1 s i tuations in the past where because of the basic model 2 d e finition, you know leaving some options outside of 3 t h e verification program, that that's created 4 o p portunities for cheating by others? 5 Is there a way of systematically taking 6 a d vantage of the fact that those aren't verified in 7 t h at way, and such that it would require inclusion of 8 t h ose things in the program? 9 MS. HOOTMAN: Versus -- I mean, we have the 10 w a y with an AHRI to contest, you know, or look at -- 11 MR. RIVEST: You do. So how does DOE get 12 t h at? 13 MS. HOOTMAN: Except with the ICP. 14 MR. RIVEST: You understand that this meeting 15 i s -- 16 MS. HOOTMAN: I know. 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, we can't accept 18 s o mething that we don't what we're accepting yet; 19 r i ght? So at some point, we have to have those 20 r e gulations, at least in our regulations, for those 21 t h at aren't members. 22 MS. HOOTMAN: Correct.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 295 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: So if there are complaints 2 t h at -- we know what's in and what's out, and for 3 p e ople not in an AHRI program, we know -- we treat them 4 t h e same way, or you know equally and fairly to 5 d e termine compliance when we get those complaints. 6 MR. RIVEST: Your definition's saying ignore, 7 i g nore the, you know, half the system basically, so 8 i t 's just a condenser and a compressor, and then the 9 c o il is what, it's within a certain -- 10 MS. HOOTMAN: No. You want to get -- 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: You sent me my definition, 12 n o t your definition. 13 MR. RIVEST: No, your definition just says 14 c o ndenser and compressor, period. 15 MR. THARP: I've sent a revision of the DOE - 16

- 17 MR. DOPPEL: Consensus. 18 MR. THARP: Consensus. Several OEMs and 19 H V AC, commercial HVAC made some attempts at revising 20 t h e DOE definition. 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay, that's closer. 22 MR. DOPPEL: Seven of the remaining words are

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 296 1 R u sty's original. 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. So Rusty is -- 3 MR. THARP: Yeah, the most important seven by 4 t h e way. 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Rusty's definition, which 6 u s es the term basic model, means, all systems of a 7 g i ven type of cover product or class thereof, having 8 t h e same primary energy source, electric or gas, and 9 w h ich have the same or comparable compressors, same or 10 c o mparable condensing coils, same or comparable 11 e v aporator coils, and same or comparable air moving 12 s y stems to have a common nominal cooling capacity. A 13 b a sic model does not include options and features that 14 s e rve unique building application such as -- 15 MR. RIVEST: This is great. 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- economizers, ERVs, et 17 c e tera. It's the et cetera that's going to be the 18 i s sue. And then what now? 19 MR. BAUMAN: It wasn't in your seven? 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: But that's great. I mean, I 21 t h ink that's absolutely a great start. I can type it 22 u p . But the idea here would be that we would need to

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 297 1 l i st those options that are in or out so that everyone 2 a r ound the table, and around the world, knows what's in 3 o r what's out. I mean, that's what this was trying to 4 g e t at, more or less. 5 MR. THARP: And this would be of course just 6 f o r HVAC and we'd have to do the same thing for 7 c o mmercial furnaces and for CRE; right? 8 MR. RIVEST: Do we have that issue in other 9 p r oducts? 10 MR. KLEISS: I would say the definition that 11 w a s just read though, the basic model differentiates 12 b e tween types of fuel input. 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, their one for HVAC 14 d o es, yeah. 15 MR. KLEISS: Okay. 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: You can negotiate yours 17 d i fferently. 18 MR. KLEISS: So boilers, water heaters don't 19 h a ve to follow that same definition? 20 MR. RIVEST: No, they're a different product 21 c l ass. 22 MS. HOOTMAN: We're suggesting that this is

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 298 1 j u st one. This is just one of many in commercial HVAC, 2 w e haven't even done commercial furnaces yet. 3 MR. KLEISS: Okay. As long as that's clear, 4 y e ah. 5 MR. SACHS: Help me please just with a 6 t e chnical clarification. Was there a reason you left 7 o u t metering devices? Are you looking to use the 8 l o west common denominator and then differentiate 9 o p tional ones? It's the one part of the refrigerant 10 c y cle that -- 11 MR. THARP: I think for commercial systems, 12 m o st today use TXVs or EVs. 13 MR. WHITWELL: Well, we use different 14 m e tering devices but it really goes more by efficiency 15 t i er, right. Like the lower cost, low efficiency tier 16 m i ght be fixed orifice. And then you move to TXVs, you 17 m i ght go to EXVs. 18 MR. SACHS: Understood, and that's 19 a p preciated, Bob. The question is if your definition 20 w o uld allow a basic model to include both a fixed 21 o r ifice and a TXV version? 22 MS. HOOTMAN: If you wanted to rate them all

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 299 1 a t the same level of efficiency. 2 MR. WHITWELL: Right. 3 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes, you would have to make 4 t h at choice. 5 MR. THARP: It wouldn't be a bad thing 6 p e rhaps to go ahead and add the expansion device, same 7 o r comparable expansion device as another component. 8 MS. HOOTMAN: I would say that most of us 9 w o uld want to take that in energy efficiency advantage, 10 a n d most of us are going to market that. But you 11 c o uld, if you wanted to, again kind of weigh your risk 12 o f you know how many models you have in testing and all 13 t h at kind of stuff, you could go. 14 MR. THARP: I certainly don't have a dog in 15 t h at fight, to use a term which we've heard before. 16 B u t I think we ought to understand whether it's in our 17

- - 18 MR. DOPPEL: This is Paul Doppel with 19 M i tsubishi. So this needs some clarification that if 20 t h is was done when we were looking at the DOE basic 21 m o del definition and trying to work with that, this 22 r e ally does not encompass some of the discussion that

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 300 1 w e had today with grouping. And but certainly if we 2 p u t model group instead of basic model, it would I 3 t h ink would be the same. 4 MR. RIVEST: Now we're going back. 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, don't go back. We were 6 d o ing good. We're making progress. 7 MS. HOOTMAN: We use those terms. We're 8 g o ing to use different terms, remember? 9 MR. DOPPEL: Okay. 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, we can go back and do 11 d i fferent terms. 12 MS. MEYERS: Yeah, and I'd like to make a 13 c o mment for the record that everyone is assuming that 14 s o me of these options that are applied detract from 15 e f ficiency. 16 MR. SACHS: No. 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: No, we're not. 18 MS. MEYERS: Many of these options increase 19 e f ficiency and they don't show up in the rating either. 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Which is why there's that 21 l a st - - I mean that's why the et cetera in your word 22 n e eds to be articulated into what are the options that

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 301 1 a r e out of the realm of -- 2 MS. MEYERS: Well, I think, you know, let me 3 j u st finish my point. At the end of the day, the 4 p e ople in this room probably supply over 90 percent of 5 t h e commercial HVAC equipment in the United States. So 6 a t the end of the day, you may have a little bit or a 7 l i ttle bit less. You probably have a little that are a 8 l i ttle bit more. But at the end of the day, the way we 9 d o it today, you know if you use statistical analysis, 10 e v erything's probably meeting that federal minimum. 11 So were taking something that's working 12 r e ally, really good, trying to make it very, very 13 c o mplicated, and I'm still not getting where we're 14 g e tting the improvement in energy use across the United 15 S t ates. So, you know, I think we just kind of need to 16 k e ep that in mind here. I'm trying to figure out, you 17 k n ow, where the improvement is. 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: What are the other options 19 t h at you guys offer today that you wouldn't consider 20 p a rt of your base model that you use asterisks for? 21 MS. MEYERS: Oh gosh, I'll guess bypass, 22 r e claim.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 302 1 MR. JOHNSON: Filtration. 2 MS. MEYERS: CO2 sensors. Filtration 3 o p tions. Different motors, different drives. 4 I mean, those are all -- I mean, I could 5 s p end - - I mean, I need to go get my spec sheet and 6 l o ok at all these millions of options available. 7 MR. RIVEST: We can deal with it. We can 8 d e al with it. 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, I think it's 10 s o mething we have to deal with. It's not something 11 t h at -- 12 MS. MEYERS: But why? Why? 13 MR. AMRANE: But eventually, we don't want to 14 c o me up with a list, and tomorrow something else come 15 u p and it's not on the list and all of a sudden ah, I'm 16 s o rry, it's not on the list here. 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, so the other option is 18 I could put an et cetera and I leave it to the 19 d i scretion of the Department. 20 MR. AMRANE: Okay, well that is -- 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't think you want that 22 e i ther.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 303 1 MR. WHITWELL: But it's going to be a list 2 t h at's always changing. 3 MS. MEYERS: But explain to me why the 4 D e partment -- 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: I get that part; right? I 6 g e t that part, but at some point there has to be some 7 l e vel of expectation there about what's in and what's 8 o u t. Because otherwise I could come to you for 9 s o mething not on the list and say, hey, you know, I 10 t e sted one of your units with one of these things that 11 w a sn't explicit, but you thought it was part of the et 12 c e tera, and oh by the way, you know it's either an 13 i n valid rating or it's 10 percent below standard, just 14

- - you know, we have an issue. 15 MR. WHITWELL: So there has to be then a 16 p r ocess for that. I mean, is that more labor? 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Absolutely. I mean, I don't 18 k n ow. So the idea of the list would be to get around 19 t h e test procedure waiver. If it's not on the list and 20 i t impacts the efficiency, we could either come up with 21 a process or apply the test procedure process as 22 n e cessary. But there has to be a common understanding

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 304 1 o f what's in and what's out at some point. 2 MS. MEYERS: I guess I'm really still 3 s t ruggling with why there has to be a list. Why is the 4 D e partment thinking that this list is going to improve 5 t h e energy efficiency of the units being built? 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: We're not saying improve. It 7 n e eds to meet. We need to understand what needs to 8 m e et. 9 MS. MEYERS: Why are you saying that it 10 d o esn't need it today? Based upon the -- 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's it, some do, some 12 d o n't. 13 MR. RIVEST: Well I think if you're not 14 w o rried about it we'll just test them all and place the 15 a s terisk things by letters and numbers and pick them 16 a l l. 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Whatever. We'll just take 18 o u t the recent, the last -- 19 MR. RIVEST: That's what the law says to do. 20 MS. MEYERS: Well, I -- 21 MR. RIVEST: That's why we're here, because 22 o f the law.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 305 1 MS. MEYERS: I think the law says you need to 2 c o mpare apples-to-apples based upon a set of 3 c o nditions. So maybe we need to decide -- 4 MR. RIVEST: We'll do that on every model you 5 s e nd. 6 MS. MEYERS: -- what those set of conditions 7 a r e. 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: It does not do that. It says 9 t h e units that you distribute in commerce must meet the 10 f e deral standard. So if you want me to pick -- take 11 o u t that last sentence, and pick all, any option I want 12 a t any time to meet the federal standards, we could. 13 We are willing to give here because we 14 r e alize that there are certain things that will help 15 w i th efficiency that we don't want to deter that are 16 g o od things to have. But we need to understand -- we 17 n e ed to have a common playing field. 18 MR. ARMANE: That's fine. We can come up 19 w i th the list. 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Absolutely. 21 MR. ARMANE: At the end of the day, as I 22 s a id, there could be tomorrow something that would not

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 306 1 b e on the list and what will you do there? 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: I know. 3 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: There are multiple 4 w a ys to handle it. 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Let's start with the list. 6 S t art with today. 7 MR. EISNER: This sentence here -- can I 8 t a lk? I get a chance to talk too every once in a while. 9 A basic system -- a basic model does not include 10 o p tions and features that serve unique building 11 a p plications. You can end that sentence there. 12 You can include such as economizers, energy 13 r e covery ventilators, you don't even have to put the et 14 c e tera in because the sentence starts off with such as. 15 S o you don't -- you just leave the et cetera off. 16 We're giving examples so that we know what 17 a r e the type of things that we talk about when we're 18 t a lking about unique building applications. If you 19 t a ke that sentence out, then you don't have that 20 e x clusion. What do you want? What works? 21 MR. FLY: So does that include larger fan 22 m o tors, exhaust fans, start fans?

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 307 1 MR. EISNER: If you want everything on the 2 l i st, you can put everything on the list, but then the 3 p r oblem's been pointed out, what happens when you come 4 u p with a new application. So you either give DOE some 5 d i scretion by saying, serve unique building 6 a p plications, with some examples or with no examples, 7 o r everything and then you can't add something new. 8 T h at's the problem with trying to write a rule. 9 MR. JOHNSON: Yeah, I suggest examples. 10 MR. AMRANE: I think that DOE wants examples. 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, I think it goes two 12 w a ys. 13 MR. RIVEST: We want the examples you're 14 c o ncerned about. 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. 16 MR. RIVEST: So we can clarify. 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, I want you guys to feel 18 c o mfortable, too. To the extent you want to leave as 19 s e rve unique building applications, that leaves it to 20 u s to make a decision on a case-by-case basis, and I 21 d o n't think that's something -- 22 MR. THARP: Let's start making a list.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 308 1 MR. EISNER: Unique gives them a lot of 2 e x amples. The examples give you some idea of what 3 t h ey're talking about. You could have a complete list, 4 a n d then you could use a process such as special 5 c o nditions. I have a new application that I didn't 6 t h ink of when this rule was written, I would like your 7 p e rmission to have that also accepted. A process that 8 y o u'd have to go through. You'd have to give it to DOE 9 a n d they'd have to say yes or no. There are various 10 w a ys you can handle it. 11 You can't write a perfect rule that will 12 c o ver all future conditions without any questions. 13 E i ther you give the agency some discretion, you give 14 t h em a process for approving a special application 15 b e fore you do it, or you give them some limit on their 16 d i scretion by giving examples. 17 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp at Goodman. I'll 18 s u ggest that perhaps the manufacturers in the room can 19 g o back tonight and we can go look at our own specific 20 s h eets and we can make up our own list and we can email 21 e a ch other tonight -- 22 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: No later than 11:00,

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 309 1 p l ease. 2 MR. THARP: But then we can develop our list 3 a n d bring it at 8:00 in the morning. 4 MR. EISNER: Is that with the goal of having 5 e v erything on the list? 6 MR. THARP: Everything we have today. 7 E v erything we know of. Everything we know of today. 8 MR. EISNER: Then what are you going to do 9 w i th what you develop tomorrow? 10 MS. HOOTMAN: Everything that's a majority. 11 I don't know that I can say -- like I said, I can have 12 a customer call me today and say I want you to put X in 13 t h ere. 14 MR. EISNER: That's what I'm getting at. 15 T h ere is a process to handle that -- 16 MS. HOOTMAN: And I'll only do X one time in 17 1 0 years. 18 MR. THARP: And if that's the case, then you 19 p r obably don't have to worry about DOE picking on you 20 f o r it. 21 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, I think what the list 22 w o uld be, would be what we'd offer as --

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 310 1 MS. HOOTMAN: In the catalogue. 2 MR. WHITNELL: In the catalogue. 3 MR. EISNER: But again, I'm saying to you, 4 a r e you going to be satisfied with your current list 5 t o day and no way to get approval for future changes 6 w i thout going through a change to the rule? 7 MR. HURST: John Hurst from Lennox. I think 8 w h at you have is a definition with if you have dot-dot9 d o t or et cetera or whatever, you're not defining your 10 l i st of exclusions so you don't need -- 11 MR. EISNER: Okay. So you say such as, but 12 y o u have a list of 100, 150 items. 13 MR. HURST: I'm not advocating 100 to 150 14 i t ems. 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: And I think we need a 16 s t arting point. I'm not clear that -- I mean at least 17 t o start the discussions tomorrow about what's in and 18 w h at's out. 19 MR. RIVEST: And if you group things under a 20 t h eme like air recirculation as opposed to a million 21 d e sign options. 22 MS. HOOTMAN: That's possible.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 311 1 MR. FLY: A big part of what we're talking 2 a b out are air flow path issues. I mean there are 3 a d ditional coils, there are additional dampers, there 4 a r e additional fans, but they all have to do with the 5 a i r side, not necessarily the refrigeration side. 6 Now, I think there probably are some 7 r e frigeration side things -- I don't like to think 8 a b out them. 9 MR. STARR: There's a DMD, that's a pretty 10 b i g thing it seems like. That's all on the electrical 11 s i de. 12 MR. EISNER: So we're in agreement. We go 13 b a ck to our rooms and we come up with a list. Let me 14 r e mind you, a good point was made earlier that people 15 i n this room cover 95 percent of what's sold, but you 16 r e present 100 percent. So think of the other five 17 p e rcent and what they might want to put on the list. 18 MR. SACHS: I have one cautionary note I'd 19 l i ke to bring up. I've been thinking a lot about this 20 e x ample of very high static pressure applications. We 21 h a ve a precedence where this was met in small 22 r e sidential stuff with first a waiver, and then a new

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 312 1 p r oduct class. 2 This was small lines that are high velocity. 3 A n d it seems to me that they're two kinds of features. 4 T h ere are those which offer customer value and may 5 i m prove field efficiency; may not affect it. And there 6 a r e things which are special applications, such as the 7 o p erating theatre high static pressure application. 8 And it may be that it turns out to be 9 p r eferable to do a waiver process for a special class 10 o f limited applications that cannot effectively meet 11 t h e DOE, EER standard because of the motor horsepower 12 r e quired. 13 That went fairly smoothly for small item or 14 h i gh velocity. It may make it easier to write the rule 15 i f we think about some of the extreme cases that 16 i n herently increase electricity use as handled with a 17 w a iver. 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: I will, with one caution. 19 T h e EER standards are congressional; OHHA can't waive 20 t h em. Sorry, Harvey. 21 MR. SACHS: We need a neutron bomb up on the 22 h i ll.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 313 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, I think it's a pretty 2 g o od idea and that's a great way going forward, but -- 3 t h ere (inaudible). 4 MR. SACHS: Yeah. Thank you for reminding 5 m e . I'm blushing and -- 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think you're part of the 7 n e gotiation. 8 MR. HURST: I didn't hear any disagreement. 9 MR. KOJAK: Should commercial refrigeration 10 c o me up with the same list, then? 11 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah, I was going to say before 12 w e adjourn -- 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think we should all break 14 i n to our respective groups then and think about it. 15 MS. BARHYDT: I think it would behoove 16 e v eryone to kind of break into their different areas 17 a n d actually stay here and work together on your 18 v a rious product equipment areas, and start talking 19 a b out what makes sense. 20 MR. EISNER: Is the introductory language 21 g o ing to be the same? 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: No.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 314 1 MS. BARHYDT: It doesn't sound like it will 2 b e . 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: No, it'll be different. 4 MR. EISNER: So should we be -- forget the -- 5 w e 're not worrying about the list until tomorrow and 6 g o ing into the other kinds of equipment and talking 7 a b out -- 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think they can do it in 9 t h eir working groups. I mean, that pretty much is how 10 t h at one was solved, so let's see at least what they 11 c o me up with for 8:00 a.m. tomorrow. 12 MR. SACHS: Sounds like you're ready to get 13 u s out of here. 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: No, no, I mean, I'm happy to 15 s t ay here and discuss it more if we want to do it as a 16 g r oup, but it could take longer; right? 17 MR. SACHS: I would love the idea of the CRE 18 f o lks and the big package boiler folks huddling at -- 19 w e have an extra conference room that's available for 20 o n e of the groups. And since the HVAC guys have done 21 t h eir thing, they can go have a drink. 22 MS. HOOTMAN: We have commercial furnaces yet

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 315 1

- - 2 MR. EISNER: Oh, commercial furnaces. If you 3 a l l spend more than five minutes on commercial 4 f u rnaces, I'll be surprised. 5 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah, as long it -- that one's 6 p r etty simple. 7 MR. EISNER: Just be sure you put in the 8 a l lowance for the static drop on the condensing RTU, 9 p l ease. 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: But I mean, one thing to keep 11 i n mind are those things that DOE has explicitly 12 a d dressed in the test procedure. So if those things 13 a r e explicitly addressed in the test procedure to the 14 e x tent that you know we're coming up with additional -- 15 y o u know, we're going to have to have some discussions 16 a b out why they should or shouldn't be included. 17 MS. HOOTMAN: Give me an example of what you 18 m e an, Ashley. 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I think it's less for 20 c o mmercial HVAC. There's a lot of things there that 21 a r e left open-ended. I think there are some options 22 t h at I can think of that are explicitly addressed in

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 316 1 t h e CRE realm. So it's just, it's more about that. 2 A n d I don't know that I have a good one. 3 Heat exchanger coils I guess would be one for 4 y o u guys, because that is something that's explicitly 5 a d dressed. I mean, heat exchanger differences are 6 a c counted for in the test procedure. Now, whether or 7 n o t they should or should not be part of different base 8 m o dels we should discuss. But that's something -- and 9 l i ke motor differences. 10 Those are something explicitly differentiated 11 i n an EER. But whether they -- it's things that 12 p r ovide us a specific utility, but may result in lower 13 E E Rs. So those to me are in a different bucket than 14 t h ose that are obvious ones that are energy saving 15 f e atures in the field. 16 And that's not to say that the lists 17 s h ouldn't include both, or some of both, or all of 18 b o th, or -- but I think as part of your discussions 19 m a ybe differentiating between the two at least would be 20 a good starting point. 21 MR. WHITWELL: So say that again. 22 D i fferentiating between --

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 317 1 MR. RIVEST: There are products that add 2 u t ility, but may come at a cost both in the field and 3 i n the test procedure. 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: To efficiency. 5 MR. RIVEST: Right. 6 MR. DOPPEL: A good example is a crankcase 7 h e ater that helps extend the life of the compressor and 8 h e lps the compressor run more efficiently. 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: But doesn't necessarily need 10 t o be run all the time. 11 MR. DOPPEL: No. 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I mean to wholesale say a 13 c r ankcase heater should be excluded, versus one that 14 h a s the right control strategy to be used effectively 15 w h en it's needed. Do you see -- I mean, there are 16 d i fferences there. 17 MR. RIVEST: The other bucket would be those 18 t h at clearly save energy, but may come in at a cost to 19 t h e test procedure. I think both the test procedure 20 a n d same energy, they're not a problem. 21 MR. WHITNELL: Among those. 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, this is what we tried

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 318 1 t o do with our quadrant's; right? So that's what 2 y o u're thinking of; all the options and how they fall 3 i n to quadrants kind of thing. 4 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, I mean essentially all 5 t h e options add utility. Otherwise we wouldn't have 6 t h em; right? I mean, they're things that our customers 7 h a ve asked for. 8 MR. RIVEST: I mean, it's true in this case. 9 S o me, you know, in other industries to save two bucks, 10 t h ey'll do something. 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: But the question is where do 12 w e draw that line? Is everything you know -- and it 13 m a y be that everything is. I don't know at this point. 14 W e 'll see. And you may have an idea of what one thing 15 i s versus what she thinks something else versus what 16 s o meone else -- so, that's what we're trying to get at. 17 W h at is the least common -- 18 MR. RIVEST: And at the end of the day, we 19 m a y - - it may be that the outcome is that we'll be 20 d o ing the exact same thing AHRI is doing, but now it 21 w o uld be documented internally. 22 MR. AMRANE: I hope so.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 319 1 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, because part of the 2 c o mplication of course, or a big part of it is that 3 t h ese products aren't sold with just one option. 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Sure. 5 MR. WHITWELL: You get options, upon options, 6 u p on options. And so the impact -- 7 MR. RIVEST: I don't think we can -- 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't think we want to go 9 w i th the interactions; right? At this point we're 10 m a king the lists -- 11 MR. WHITWELL: No, I know, I understand, but 12 w h en we get to the certification piece of it -- 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, if they're excluded 14 t h en you're good because -- 15 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, right. Exactly. 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right? And that's what we're 17 t r ying to do is -- 18 MR. WHITNELL: Agree. 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- agree upon this common 20 d e nominator of okay, this doesn't count. And then 21 y o u're -- you know, we tried to do that ourselves by 22 l o oking at the directories and your products and each

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 320 1 o f you, and our common denominator for each of you was 2 a page for each of you. So it was very difficult for 3 u s to do. So hopefully, you guys will have more 4 i n sight than we did. We spent a lot of time trying to 5 d o that. 6 MR. EISNER: All right. So do we want to 7 b r eak up into groups? Do we want to have some people 8 s t ick around to have the groups come in and talk, or 9 w a it until tomorrow morning to do that, so you can get 10 s o me guidance? What's the consensus of the group? How 11 s h ould we work this? Do you want the DOE -- 12 MR. WHITNELL: We want to stay, at least for 13 a little while, to talk about -- 14 MR. EISNER: Do you want the DOE people to be 15 a v ailable tonight, so you can talk with them about 16 w h ether you're going -- 17 MR. BAUMAN: How many audits do you want next 18 y e ar? 19 MR. WHITNELL: No, I think we -- I think they 20 c a n be excused. 21 MR. SACHS: I would like -- 22 MR. WHITWELL: But stay if you want. Either

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 321 1 w a y. 2 MR. SACHS: I would like to have us out of 3 t h e building at 6:00. 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: The discussion would be more 5 p r oductive around the corner at a 6 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, is there a recommended 7 m e eting room nearby? 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: There's lots of them. 9 MR. EISNER: We can borrow someplace in the 10 b u ilding. 11 Before we break up, Joe Saunders had a 12 q u estion. Joe, are you on the line? Is he just by 13 c o mputer? 14 MR. SACHS: Don't touch that telephone line. 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: We adjourned; right? 16 MR. EISNER: Joe had a question -- 17 MR. SAUNDERS: I'm here. 18 MR. EISNER: Joe, you want to repeat your 19 q u estion about how much tolerance is allowed? 20 MR. SAUNDERS: Yes, that was my question. 21 T h e more variations you have in -- what I'm worried 22 a b out is just the tolerance isn't wide enough and you

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 322 1 a l low all of these variations, that you could end up 2 f a iling good cabinets because you tested assembly A for 3 t h e certified rating and then you tested cabinet B for 4 ( i naudible) or for validation. 5 And not that anything was wrong with either 6 o n e of them, but you might - if you used a TXB in one 7 p l ace and a (inaudible) in another, you might have a 8 p e rformance difference. Both of them would be within 9 t h e federal standard, but not within five percent of 10 w h at I've written down there, and that had to do with 11 a l l these variations and components of the basic model. 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, I think that gets to 13 t h e heart of the issue. I mean, that's why we are 14 c o ming up with this list of this is in, this is out, 15 s o me definitive. So you have an expectation of these 16 a r e the types of things that count; these are types of 17 t h ings that don't. So when you go to come up with all 18 y o ur different ratings and you want to group individual 19 m o dels with different characteristics into a singular 20 r a ting, you have a given expectation of what that 21 m e ans, as well as the tolerance that will be applied to 22 d e termine -- this is where this list really matters.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 323 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, we kind of did get to 2 t h e tolerances for verification. Granted, it was 3 w i thin the AEDM rule, but that was for verification 4 t e sting. What is a valid rating? 5 MR. SAUNDERS: Right. All right. I mean, if 6 t h e tolerances are small, the smaller the basic model 7 g r oups are going to be. 8 MR. SACHS: Remember, we pretty much have a 9 c o nsensus, I think, on one-sided testing, one-sided 10 t o lerance intervals, so you can always get more 11 c o nservative and throw money at the problems. 12 MR. SAUNDERS: I'm not sure -- I think we 13 n e ed to know -- I hate to say these words -- what the 14 d e finition of conservative is from a manufacturing 15 s t andpoint -- 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: The federal standard is the 17 c o nservative. 18 MR. SACHS: Point well-taken, and thanks. 19 MR. EISNER: Okay. Any other questions? 20 MR. SACHS: If one of the groups wants to 21 w o rk in the little conference room across the hall, 22 t h at's certainly possible.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 324 1 MR. SAUNDERS: Thank you. 2 MR. SACHS: I'm going to wander up to the 3 f r ont so I can let people in and out if they want to go 4 t o the little boys' room or little girls' room. 5 MR. EISNER: Yes, we're off. 6 (Whereupon, at 5:35 p.m., the Appliance 7 Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory 8 Committee Meeting was concluded.) 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22

### Capital Reporting Company Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

1 CERTIFICATE OF COURT REPORTER 2 I, NATALIA THOMAS, the Court Reporter before 3 whom the foregoing proceeding was taken, do hereby 4 certify that the proceeding was recorded by me; that 5 the proceeding was thereafter reduced to typewriting 6 under my direction; that said transcript is a true and 7 accurate record of the proceeding; that I am neither 8 related to nor employed by any of the parties to this 9 proceeding; and, further, that I have no financial 10 interest in this proceeding. 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22

# ")~**c.- -f~** 

. u- NATALIA THOMAS Digital Court Reporter



### (866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitaIReportingCompany.com © 2013 325

### Capital Reporting Company Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013

1 CERTIFICATE OF TRANSCRIPTION 2 I, CINDY MCCALLISTER, hereby certify that I 3 am not the Court Reporter who reported the following 4 proceeding and that I have typed the transcript of this 5 proceeding using the Court Reporter's notes and 6 recordings. The foregoing/attached transcript is a 7 true, correct and complete transcription of said 8 proceeding. 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22**~-3-\.:2,**

# ~rro(c~ CINDY**M~ALLISTER** Transcriptionist Date

(866) 448

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 $ $30 15:16 0 0.000000 196:14 0.9 134:22 0.93 134:22 0002 243:8 090 262:18 1 1,000 260:6 1.43.25 213:20 1:30 117:1 1:37 118:14 10 25:2 57:21 58:3,15 59:4 64:1 74:15 75:6 77:9 78:8,13,14 79:18,19 81:18 82:3,11,12,20 83:6,19,20 84:16 85:1,8,15 86:6 87:5 88:4 89:16 91:5 92:5,7 93:14 97:6 98:14,15,17,22 99:16,22 100:14,16 101:20 103:1 104:12,21 105:18,20 112:1,7,11,12 121:11 123:13,21 124:2 130:7 133:20 137:20 138:15 156:19,20 157:17 158:22 159:1 172:4,16 173:5 176:5,6 181:15,21 182:4 191:21 192:18,22 193:2 225:3 254:9 258:11 291:2,5 303:13 309:17 10:00 1:12 10:15 5:2,8,9 100 82:19 95:20 104:21 105:3,6,7 161:3 240:21 310:12,13 311:16 1000 1:7 10-minute 24:21 11 157:8 271:4 11:00 25:2 308:22 11D 5:5 12 156:5 12.35 131:9 132:13 12:30 116:20 118:14 13 131:10 132:12 130 142:5 130,000 144:4 13th 117:14,15 15 211:9 214:11 246:2 150 310:12,13 15-minute 245:22 16 127:17 197:4 17025 52:11 18 45:5,7 127:17 211:8 212:16 180 186:22 192:7 2 2 121:11

2:00 148:17 20 25:2 45:16 46:6,8 58:4 59:4 74:4 75:6 78:15 103:1 128:12,14 131:16 182:5 189:19 192:10,11,13 269:16,20 270:7,21 273:22 279:10 2000 14:20 2013 1:11 2014 86:21 20585 1:9 240,000 142:19 25 42:22 273:20 28 1:11 278:20 29 278:19 3 3.0 12:10 30 42:22 103:1 189:19 191:3 252:1 253:9,13,20 254:12,19,21 263:14,17 272:11 278:13 300 260:6 300,000 142:16 343/360 288:3 4 40 191:3 471 52:2 5 5 92:5 138:15 148:20 5,000 281:16,17 5:35 324:6 50 204:8 242:15 243:6 253:9 279:11 282:15 500,000 142:6 144:4 146:22 6 6 133:18 6:00 321:3 65 193:16 67 268:11 7 7 78:15 75 210:2 750 253:10 760,000 193:16 8 8:00 309:3 314:11 80 15:6 73:20 191:5,12 268:11 800 51:12 876 273:11 87-607 287:19 9 90 37:6 51:15 97:20 191:5,12 301:4 90.1 16:19 95 35:12 131:15

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013 Page 2

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 268:11 311:15 A a.m 1:12 314:11 A.O 134:21 AAHRI 42:13 AAON 2:14 184:19 202:7 ability 57:2 107:2 121:21 159:10 178:6 230:3 251:11 able 10:5 15:2 36:10 50:8,9 51:22 53:5 54:4,5,7,10 55:19 65:3 85:9,13 96:20,21 106:17 108:7 145:13 159:20 160:2 173:16 186:12 212:4 222:7 247:2 250:2 260:3 267:4 283:13 287:19 293:1 ABMA 14:4 15:11 17:22 18:3 40:2 absolute 130:8 absolutely 32:4 52:21 55:9 67:2 113:7 114:13 141:1 147:18 157:2 171:20 176:16 185:18 195:6 296:21 303:17 305:20 abstain 29:18 101:5,7 110:5 115:16 116:22 abstained 8:4,5 abstaining 102:2 abstains 27:10 29:13 abstention 8:9,11 27:12 102:1 abstentions 22:11 23:6 27:18 29:15 30:3 102:5 abusing 153:17 accept 26:16 94:9 214:3,4 289:19 294:17 acceptable 139:10 237:16 accepted 308:7 accepting 294:18 access 4:21 9:2,3 accessories 68:6 72:8 262:6 267:15,16 278:12 accident 15:12 accidents 15:13 accommodate 17:9 accommodation 285:6 accord 266:2 accordance 62:8 according 106:14 171:15 accordingly 112:4 249:9 account 63:17 67:17,18 286:17 290:17 accountable 232:7 accounted 64:7,9 290:18 316:6 accounts 275:11 286:12 account's 68:3 accreditation 52:18 54:15 55:6 60:1 146:17 accredited 144:22 146:12,16 accuracy 132:21 accurate 42:11 43:7 157:15 325:7 accurately 43:4 113:9 275:11 ACEEE 3:8 4:2 across 51:11 120:2,21 121:19 123:2 125:4 139:17 153:16 177:4 190:17 212:16 225:10 252:3 273:1 276:20 281:21 282:9 301:14 323:21 acting 131:7 action 257:19 actions 16:18 actors 221:19 actual 22:12 136:8 266:7 286:9 actually 7:4 90:8 120:6 137:3 140:16 158:11 177:19 196:1 206:9 211:17 217:22 225:3,11 246:9 255:13

256:1 265:3 274:5 278:17 313:17 Adams 134:21 add 8:11 95:17 98:17 100:21 101:13 102:10 107:19 110:3 115:8,18 127:16 161:15 196:3 228:14 234:20 272:2 279:6 282:12 291:17 293:5 299:6 307:7 317:1 318:5 added 97:17 108:1,3 126:13 229:4,14 260:20,21 268:22 269:4 274:19 278:13 281:8 290:13 293:8 adding 54:14 79:18 97:12 102:7,17 110:20 111:9 218:17 274:22 addition 102:12 107:22 118:18 166:16 279:6 additional 49:4,6 50:21 51:1 54:14 56:22 62:1,2,10,11,15 96:12,14,17 100:21 104:16 120:14 125:16 143:11 147:13 157:14 169:15,21

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 180:14 188:19 207:1 212:7,19 213:11,13 217:8 218:17 224:21 226:4 228:14 235:14 236:1 281:12 283:13 285:12 311:3,4 315:14 Additionally 202:1 additions 116:16 add-on 290:6 291:15,22 add-ons 279:2 282:17 292:22 293:2 address 47:14 92:6 116:7 139:9 167:22 185:7 189:1 addressed 17:1 50:19 238:10,11 315:12,13,22 316:5 addresses 108:17,19 addressing 138:15 139:15 adequate 288:6 adequately 34:20 adjacent 6:16 adjourn 313:12 adjourned 321:15 administered 36:10 administers 34:15 admitted 280:20 adopt 124:12 adopted 47:19 124:10 adopting 149:5 advance 286:13 advanced 3:15 47:8 advantage 72:9 93:8 294:6 299:9 advent 252:21 advisedly 71:17 Advisory 1:4 324:7 advocating 59:22 310:13 AE 243:11 AEDM 86:2 120:17 121:2,4,8,10,15 122:14 124:5 125:3,6,9,21 126:4,18,19 136:3,7,20 152:8,16,19 153:6,13 154:4,19,21 155:10 157:15 158:16 159:7,9,11 162:16,19,22 164:4,21 165:1,10,11 168:3,5 169:16 172:2 173:12,17 175:14,17,18 176:1,4,20 177:1,2,8,10,13 178:1,5 179:1,2,3,5,16,2 0,22 180:7,17,18,19,2 2 188:1 191:11,12,20 192:2,8,10,16,20 193:8 194:4,11,14 195:4,5 196:2,7,20,21 197:5,12,13,15,1 9,22 198:1,10,15,16,1 8 199:1,6,13 200:1,3,7 201:7 203:13 205:2 206:9 208:9,11,12 209:9 211:15 212:8,14 218:18 224:19,20 225:3,19 226:4,13 228:12,15,16,19, 20,21 229:1,13,15,16,1 7 230:3,5,7,17,18, 20 231:22 232:2 239:21 240:4,5 241:15 242:13 244:22 249:1,3 251:13 252:2,3,7 255:4 257:4,7 323:3 AEDM-A 120:10 AEDM-B 120:11 AEDMs 9:7 12:12,15,20 13:15 85:22 119:22 120:2,22 122:1 123:2 124:8 126:8 129:17 132:22 133:3 148:10 162:4 176:19 177:21 181:5 182:11

191:2,3,7,21 192:4,10,11 193:1,22 195:12 197:2 198:2 199:14,20 200:1,11,13,16 201:11 202:2 230:13 251:9 AEDM's 136:4 198:4 affect 12:16 98:18 186:9 217:9 312:5 afraid 278:9 against 22:11 136:7 224:11 257:19 272:5,7 agency 27:1 308:13 agenda 87:7,9 aggregation 248:6,12 254:19 aggressive 222:22 ago 7:6 19:20 20:4 49:1 84:8 97:5 133:13 210:22 211:9 256:21 272:11 280:21 agreed 21:7,9 22:17 26:22 28:4 32:5,17 50:4,20 60:17 92:2 94:4 112:13 118:17 124:16 171:6 227:8,17 243:2 agreeing 29:7 83:12 91:11 239:3 agreement

21:19

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013 Page 4

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 23:4 85:8 87:20 102:9 287:6 288:17 311:12 ah 302:15 a-half 268:8 ahead 9:7 12:3 21:21 22:3 23:16 44:4 72:11 149:14 161:19 200:9 215:4 228:9 234:2 239:5,13 267:4 287:14 289:17 299:6 ahold 66:15 AHRI 2:7 3:12 34:7 94:12 114:9 134:4 138:18 141:22 152:22 153:8,9 155:3 156:2,7,9 158:3,17 160:11 161:9 162:6 163:7,9,12 165:4 167:1 171:5 197:9 200:21 210:6 211:20 218:12,15 223:15,17,19 251:22 263:10,16 269:15 270:15 271:12 272:16 273:14 281:3 283:14 285:11 288:15 294:10 295:3 318:20 air 3:17 10:14,16 59:8 131:9 132:11 138:2,21,22 143:1 193:14,15 258:12 273:12 279:7 281:14 282:13 288:4,5,10,12 296:11 310:20 311:2,5 Air-Conditioning 2:6 3:11 alerting 222:1 alerts 162:9 alleviate 52:7 54:10,13 Alliance 3:13 allow 48:16 56:1 57:21 69:8 92:17 120:20 132:17 136:1 152:15 153:5 173:17 184:21 189:11 221:1 235:17 278:5 298:20 322:1 allowable 122:11 allowance 315:8 allowed 109:4 121:18 154:19 184:2 256:6 321:19 allowing 13:14 18:18 34:22 35:2 43:5 44:6,15 153:13 249:12,13 275:16 allows 74:8 84:10 87:3 123:3 250:21 255:4 274:4 alluded 72:13 already 19:10 46:1 50:4,20 83:15 93:7 107:8,14,18 122:11 167:19 183:19 188:6 189:14,15 195:16,19 207:2 229:11,19,22 286:22 altar 7:4 alter 64:4 alternative 98:3 altitude 145:16 altogether 212:11 am 39:2 100:14 114:19 325:7 326:3 amend 23:7 261:6 amending 97:1 Among 317:21 amount 74:3 76:7 136:4 143:22 150:5 155:14 160:2 164:14,17 166:8 183:2 195:11 256:22 282:16 288:10 ample 188:22 amplify 6:20 AMRAME 34:22 Amrane 2:6 31:1,4 34:10 35:10 36:1 84:22 94:12,20 95:10,15 112:7,15 137:9 139:8,14 140:16 141:1 151:13,16,18 156:8,13,16 166:18 189:18 190:4 204:5,12,17,22 219:21 220:20

234:3 244:21 245:3,9,11 246:1 255:19 256:4,8,13,15,18 257:10 260:17 261:1 274:9 280:12,19 282:18 286:3 302:13,20 307:10 318:22 analogy 267:1 273:17 279:5 analysis 216:9 301:9 analyze 277:19 analyzing 260:4 anastomosing 80:2 and/or 113:11 144:4 146:10 147:9 276:6 and-a-half

271:3 Ange 158:20,21 angle 24:7 annual 4:5 answer 53:15 99:16 125:5 136:21 168:7 185:11 209:2,10 224:10,14 245:12,15 264:9 answers 65:16 99:15 anti 208:21 anticipate 77:22 anti-sweat 206:15 anybody 8:20 21:5 25:11 26:8,16 27:10 28:2

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 29:13,17 97:12,15 98:8 101:5,22 102:10 110:4 115:16,19 116:15,22 118:10 153:11 269:9 289:8 anyhow 223:15 anymore 148:10 153:6 164:21 271:4 anyone 26:12 153:14 289:3 anyplace 233:19 anything 15:18 42:10 53:4 68:13 80:11 103:18,20 115:21 138:6 142:5,15 169:19 173:10,11 177:22 178:15 191:9 233:4 246:5 266:16 277:12 322:5 Anything's 216:3 anyway 10:13 35:16,22 84:10 121:19 188:16 anyways 282:4 anywhere 15:22 121:6 181:12 apart 211:21,22 apologize 5:10 130:10 161:19 apparently 46:3 appear 27:4 appears 168:6 apples 272:5,7 284:2 285:17 apples-to 272:6 285:17 apples-to-apples 305:2 apple-to-apple 274:4 appliance 1:3 276:17 324:6 applicable 17:4,5 30:19 113:17,21,22 application 65:10 267:8 270:11 271:6,19 272:10,22 277:9 285:6,7 288:11 296:14 307:4 308:5,14 312:7 applications 306:11,18 307:6,19 311:20 312:6,10 applied 106:6 120:2 165:1 192:2 200:3 212:14 251:17 293:14 300:14 322:21 applies 109:18 120:6 177:16 197:13 242:9 243:5 259:2 apply 111:7 120:12 125:4,6 198:2 255:7 303:21 applying 111:4 appreciate 135:22 appreciated 298:19 approach 284:5 289:5 approaching 47:9 appropriate 137:21 144:14 182:12 183:2 286:11 appropriation 162:10 approval 225:12 310:5 approve 131:8,14 227:19 approved 113:20 114:2 146:12 151:13 approving 199:13 308:14 approximate 289:3 approximated 37:16 approximation 290:2 arbitrator 26:22 area 134:18 228:19 251:9 areas 40:9 138:7 313:16,18 aren't 46:18 146:14 259:5 294:6,21 319:3 argue 59:21 261:12 argument 59:22 75:12 76:20 85:18,21 107:12 286:13 arm 189:18 258:14

Armane 30:18 34:7 36:20 140:20 220:4,7 233:20 234:13 260:12 305:18,21 arms 4:12 191:2 Armstrong 2:8 4:22 5:2,4,8,11,15,17 6:7,9,12 7:15 8:15 9:20 10:3,7,10 13:6,10 16:3,14 17:7,18 18:1,7,14 19:19 20:7,19 23:22 24:13 30:22 31:2,6,10 32:4,11,16 33:4,13,18 34:2,5,12 35:2,9,14 36:3 37:4 40:19 41:2,8,11 44:5 45:1 46:6,10,15 52:13,17,21 53:14,18 54:3,12,20 55:1,9 56:4,9,19 58:9 59:16,19,21 60:9 61:6,13,20,22 62:21 63:3,6,11,17 64:6,8,13 65:17,22 66:17,20 67:2 68:10 70:3,7,9,14,21 71:4 73:21 74:12,18 75:4 76:5,9 80:6,19

### Capita l Reporting Company

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 81:8,14,22 82:4,13 83:22 84:2,6 85:17 86:16 87:2,8 88:2,16,21 89:2,6,15,20 90:16 91:6 94:16,22 95:13,16 96:6 97:8 98:13 99:10 100:5 101:20 102:13,19 103:6,8,15,21 107:15 108:9,13,16 109:2,9 110:11,19 111:22 112:4,19 113:7 114:5,12,17 115:11,13 117:16 118:2,22 119:4,6,8,11,13, 17,20 122:12,14,19,22 124:6,14 125:2,11,15,20 126:11,22 127:9,12,15,19 128:6,11 129:22 137:2 139:13 140:1,5,14,21 141:3,9,13,15 142:22 143:3 144:17 145:3 146:6 147:8,18,21 148:2,10,13,17,2 2 149:2,15 150:5,11,16,18,2 2 151:4,7 152:11 153:18,21 154:12 155:18,21 156:11,15 157:2,18 158:1 160:6,15 161:22 164:11 165:22 166:17,20 173:21 174:6,8 175:7,11 176:2,9,16 177:6 180:4 181:18 185:8,11,15,18 187:2,13,18 188:13 189:14,20 190:2,6,11,14,18 191:13,18 192:12 193:9 194:9,15 195:6,11 196:9,17 198:8,13,17 199:3 200:2,8,10,14,17 202:10,14,17,21 203:2,9,14 204:1,9,15,18 205:1,4,6,14 206:4,7,22 207:5,9,14 208:14,19 209:5 210:11,17 212:6 213:17 215:14,22 216:14,19 217:14 218:22 225:1,5,9 226:21 227:4 228:3 229:7 230:2,9,22 231:5,8 232:1,4,9,12 233:21 234:5,11,18,22 235:8,14,17,20 236:4,8,16,22 237:3,22 238:3,16,22 240:1,18 242:1,4 243:14 244:6,9,13 245:1,5,8,10,14, 19 246:7 247:6 249:16 254:1 256:10,14,16 257:8,12,22 258:4 259:9,16 260:13,22 262:14 264:11 265:20 266:3 268:14,19 270:3,12,22 274:12 277:1,14,17 280:20 282:3,10,20 284:19 285:2 290:14 291:11 292:1,5,8 294:17 295:1,11,21 296:2,5,16,20 297:13,16 300:5,10,17,20 301:18 302:9,17,21 303:5,17 304:6,11,17 305:8,20 306:2,5 307:11,15,17 310:15 312:18 313:1,6,13,22 314:3,8,14 315:10,19 317:4,9,12,22 318:11 319:4,8,13,16,19 321:4,8,15 322:12 323:1,16 articulated 300:22 Ashley 2:8 5:6 7:11,20,22 8:6 13:3 30:5 47:2 96:11 100:2 102:8 103:14 108:3 112:21 130:20 133:14 144:16 146:19,20 151:9 158:9 187:19 197:9 207:11 246:10 249:10 315:18 Ashley's 79:17 116:7,18 238:20 ASHRAE 9:4,8 11:20 16:19 31:12 285:13 288:7,15 290:1 aside 265:9 aspect 138:20 210:7 aspects 40:4 assemblies 90:9 assembly 322:2 assessment 33:22 41:20 94:14 174:4,6 175:15,21 203:11,17 assist 74:3 associated 265:14 276:10 associations 131:5 assume 27:11 39:22 40:20 101:14 170:15 181:20 249:21 assumed 115:15 284:15 assumes 129:5 156:9 assuming 23:4

### Capita l Reporting Company

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care 39:8 63:2 careful 5:22 7:1 Carrier 3:18 31:18 55:12 62:19 97:19 106:1 154:17 189:5 193:13 277:4 carryover 132:17 case 10:18 13:16 38:9 61:4 77:12 94:15 103:12 105:9 124:18 125:13,18 156:21 157:12 159:17 204:6 206:15 209:16,17 211:19 241:10 263:11 268:3 286:3 287:20 309:18 318:8 case-by-case 307:20 cases 95:4 140:7 154:22 163:21 182:17 264:9 293:6 312:15 catalogue 310:1,2 catch 187:10 catch-22 47:18 114:14 categories 126:8 127:6 150:19 179:4 268:21 categorize 217:1 category 37:20 88:18,20 89:3 189:9 caught 114:19

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chance 24:22 185:17 287:8 306:8 chances 72:14 183:17 change 13:22 23:11 80:21 85:13 89:22 93:11,22 105:17 112:15 120:16,19 155:11 161:15 169:5 174:17 187:15 193:4 199:2,16 209:2,9 230:14 234:19 237:5,20 239:7 251:19 255:1 265:9,22 271:5 280:8 289:6,7 310:6 changed 16:11 114:9 140:7 145:17 161:3 209:3,6,7 changes 68:11 106:7 119:17 121:14 151:7 160:13 161:15,16 162:22 240:15 310:5 changing 47:12 77:16 139:1 255:8 281:22 303:2 characteristics 91:3 260:8,9,14 264:19 265:14 272:18 322:19 Charles 2:17 Charlie 12:6 134:21 153:15 154:2 186:20 190:15,22 191:10 219:5,6 Charlie's 222:3 chart 197:9 205:8 229:4 cheat 222:2 cheating 294:4 check 10:4 48:10 59:13,14 137:21 238:9 287:4 checked 47:22 75:10 268:9 chewing 136:12 choice 70:1 73:3 75:2 111:8 181:9 299:4 choking 191:6 choose 70:5 71:18 105:18 109:7 184:11 206:3 chose 263:1,19 chosen 262:22 263:4,5,6,7 Chris 13:7 chunks 224:5 CINDY 326:2,11 circle 223:10 circular 85:21 86:11 circulate 225:12 circulated 7:11,20 28:9 30:5 97:4,17 102:8 130:20 152:21 circumstance

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55:2,3 competitor 283:5 competitors 272:5,7 compilation 144:19 complaints 295:1,5 complete 20:12 33:1 308:3 326:7 completely 54:20 87:18 106:10 132:16 272:9 complex 43:1 66:12 69:1,13 72:1,7 75:13 complexity 42:7,17 64:16 66:5 67:15 74:10 compliance 17:4 283:2,20 285:15 286:14 292:14 293:11 295:5 compliant 131:14 284:3 291:9 complicated 41:17 70:19,22 84:5 90:15 182:7 189:9 190:9 255:11 279:16,21 280:2 282:19 301:13 complication 319:2 comply 203:6 component 169:3 175:19 187:6 201:4 206:14,21 207:4,8,19 208:4,6,8,11 209:1,15,17,19 210:9,13,14 211:5,10,15,18 216:7,20 299:7 components 90:9 201:19 210:16 219:9 220:19 260:20 322:11 compressor 210:1 295:8,14 317:7,8 compressors 129:13 296:9 compromise 50:17 237:17 compromises 49:1

computer 321:13 concept 63:7 77:16 78:12 131:6 132:17 153:12 189:11 248:11 251:10 252:6 259:3 264:15 concepts 167:3 248:17 282:17 concern 37:1 56:15 59:3 65:5 71:12 110:20 116:7,8 131:3 133:3 149:13,15 154:2 167:19 198:21 222:4 238:10 concerned 12:19 45:20 98:12 110:21 154:9 307:14 concerns 8:7 14:5,20 27:22 54:10,13 104:8 105:10 115:7,20 149:4 237:2 238:7 241:2 concluded 324:8 conclusion 27:16 136:14 293:13 conclusions 159:6 condenser 211:6 212:5 258:11 295:8,14 condensing 296:10 315:8 condition 239:6 conditioner 131:9 conditioners

### Capita l Reporting Company

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coolers 31:10 cooling 2:14 128:22 133:16 134:3 137:16 193:20,21 296:12 COP 138:1 233:18 copy 115:1 corner 4:13 6:17 321:5 Corporation 3:10 correct 10:9 19:15 30:22 33:13 34:2 62:21 63:4,11,18 64:9 79:14 89:3 95:7 114:19 161:22 163:3 179:20 181:8 207:19 208:7 209:19 234:18 235:8 236:22 268:14 294:22 326:7 correction 228:8 corrections 7:21 correctly 66:7 107:11 132:8 163:2 216:13 275:10 correspond 251:16 correspondence 250:15,21 corresponding 119:22 cost 37:1,7 38:15 51:1 71:22 91:19,20 92:1,6 93:1,9,12 104:8 180:2,3,5,6,12

### Capita l Reporting Company

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cushion 230:21 custom 71:10,14 221:14 222:20 224:6 225:18 244:5,16,19 245:16 customer 244:18 267:8 269:8 271:17 309:12 312:4 customers 63:2 79:9 283:12 289:13 318:6 cut 43:20 53:9 72:16 98:14 211:21,22 222:7 cutoff 165:14 cycle 229:10 260:18 285:7 298:10 cycles 132:5 D D.C 1:9 da 203:6,7 Daikin 2:21 daily 231:6 damn 285:4 damper 288:12 dampers 311:3 Dane 2:12 51:20 52:14,20,22 53:17 54:2,8,18,22 55:8 108:21 109:5,10 151:9,15,17,20 data 139:11,20 147:7,17,20 166:8,15,16 175:20 184:2 198:3 200:5 201:12,14 202:9,20 205:20,21 206:11 207:18 208:1,7,8,16 212:10,20 218:17 223:8 224:2,18 225:19 273:15 290:1 database 109:2 154:4,7 161:15,16 191:8 247:21 250:14,17,22 256:19 258:2 259:8 280:18 281:21 290:1 date 16:17 41:22 53:21 326:11 day 52:7 90:22 95:6 98:20 113:11 175:2 260:7 272:11 279:21 289:14 301:3,6,8 305:21 318:18 days 12:5 85:15 186:22 deal 81:16 113:13 166:1 236:7 245:20 246:18 279:20 302:7,8,10 dealership 273:19 death 158:18 231:19 decade 221:20

### Capita l Reporting Company

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### Capita l Reporting Company

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### Capita l Reporting Company

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### Capita l Reporting Company

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### Capita l Reporting Company

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### Capita l Reporting Company

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### Capita l Reporting Company

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### Capita l Reporting Company

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### Capita l Reporting Company

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### Capita l Reporting Company

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### Capita l Reporting Company

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### Capita l Reporting Company

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### Capita l Reporting Company

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### Capita l Reporting Company

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### Capita l Reporting Company

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 292:9 rest 21:13 106:22 117:20 118:9 226:17 restaurants 4:20 restrict 196:1 278:4 283:19 restricting 165:20 restriction 124:6 125:20 restrictions 124:8,9 231:4 restrictive 156:21 restrooms 4:8,9 resubstantiate 200:5 207:3 result 27:17 35:3 110:18 120:12 128:16 136:3 171:9,17 274:17,19 275:2,4,8 276:12 293:7 316:12 results 12:13 57:14 58:13 120:20 123:8 133:15 208:3 276:3 re-talk 58:6 retest 10:8 11:6 32:2,8,10,18 33:7 35:19 50:18 51:17 57:17 58:7,10,18 69:11,16 70:4 71:6 72:6 73:5,12,13,20 76:1,12,20 84:9 95:5 96:19 99:19 171:12,14,19 175:16 208:13

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 seemed 99:21 seems 14:8,9,16 19:8 40:9 42:8 67:9 68:4 83:2 87:1 116:5,7 122:15 129:15 139:6 160:11 200:18 206:7 218:15 249:11 265:12 268:3 285:10 311:10 312:3 seen 15:13 221:18 SEER 131:9 132:11 262:8 273:12 sees 177:1 segment 14:17 90:11 segments 14:13 segue 274:13 select 73:10,18 78:18 86:17,22 97:10 114:21 272:11 selected 258:21 270:19 287:1,2 selecting 53:13 54:9 86:15 170:5 250:8 selection 53:20 287:5 selects 10:1 97:20 267:8 self-contained 12:10 149:11 150:9 sell 48:5 65:8 67:20 132:10 163:11,22 270:10

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 40:3 50:16 92:8 104:19 132:22 133:10 143:22 213:16 218:14 sound 24:14 213:14 314:1 sounds 218:6 243:12 288:17 314:12 source 138:3 296:8 south 276:18 Southern 3:5 southwestern 117:6 space 16:1,16 190:21 span 121:22 250:6 spanned 120:8 196:22 spanning 176:6 speak 6:15,16,22 138:5 143:18 153:14 218:7 221:8 222:19 287:12 SPEAKER 81:1,4,11 100:3 163:13,14 181:7,8,11 229:21 232:3 243:12,16 306:3 308:22 speaking 6:15 24:10 146:5 258:22 267:9 spec 302:5 special 72:8 191:16 308:4,14 312:6,9 specialized 222:20

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 80:1 state 217:6 stated 55:15 181:12 statement

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