U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE

WASHINGTON : 

For sale by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. Government Printing Office,

http://bookstore.gpo.gov. For more information, contact the GPO Customer Contact Center,

U.S. Government Printing Office. Phone 202–512–1800, or 866–512–1800 (toll-free). E-mail, gpo@custhelp.com.

50–382 PDF 2011

S. Hrg. 111–791 

SOUTHERN BORDER VIOLENCE—2009 

HEARINGS 

BEFORE THE

COMMITTEE ON 

HOMELAND SECURITY AND 

GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS 

UNITED STATES SENATE 

OF THE

ONE HUNDRED ELEVENTH CONGRESS 

FIRST SESSION 

MARCH 25, 2009 

SOUTHERN BORDER VIOLENCE: HOMELAND SECURITY THREATS, 

VULNERABILITIES, AND RESPONSIBILITIES 

AND 

APRIL 20, 2009 

SOUTHERN BORDER VIOLENCE: STATE AND LOCAL PERSPECTIVES 

FIELD HEARING IN PHOENIX, ARIZONA 

Available via http://www.gpoaccess.gov/congress/index.html 

Printed for the use of the 

Committee on Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs 

( 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER
(II) 

COMMITTEE ON HOMELAND SECURITY AND GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS 

JOSEPH I. LIEBERMAN, Connecticut, Chairman 

CARL LEVIN, Michigan 

DANIEL K. AKAKA, Hawaii 

THOMAS R. CARPER, Delaware 

MARK L. PRYOR, Arkansas 

MARY L. LANDRIEU, Louisiana 

CLAIRE MCCASKILL, Missouri 

JON TESTER, Montana 

ROLAND W. BURRIS, Illinois 

MICHAEL F. BENNET, Colorado 

SUSAN M. COLLINS, Maine 

TOM COBURN, Oklahoma 

JOHN MCCAIN, Arizona 

GEORGE V. VOINOVICH, Ohio 

JOHN ENSIGN, Nevada 

LINDSEY GRAHAM, South Carolina 

MICHAEL L. ALEXANDER, Staff Director 

BLAS NUNEZ-NETO, Professional Staff Member 

NICOLE M. MARTINEZ, Staff Assistant 

BRANDON L. MILHORN, Minority Staff Director and Chief Counsel 

ROBERT L. STRAYER, Minority Director of Homeland Security Affairs 

LEE C. DUNN, General Counsel, Office of Senator McCain 

TRINA DRIESSNACK TYRER, Chief Clerk 

PATRICIA R. HOGAN, Publications Clerk and GPO Detailee 

LAURA W. KILBRIDE, Hearing Clerk 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER
(III) 

C O N T E N T S 

Opening statements: Page 

Senator Lieberman ........................................................................................... 1, 43 

Senator McCain ................................................................................................ 3, 46 

Senator Graham ............................................................................................... 12 

Senator Burris .................................................................................................. 14 

Senator Pryor .................................................................................................... 30 

Senator Carper ................................................................................................. 32 

Senator Tester .................................................................................................. 35 

Senator Akaka .................................................................................................. 37 

Senator Kyl (Guest Member) ........................................................................... 47 

Prepared statements: 

Senator Lieberman, March 25, 2009 ............................................................... 99 

Senator Bennet, March 25, 2009 ..................................................................... 101 

Senator Lieberman, April 20, 2009 ................................................................. 191 

Senator McCain, April 20, 2009 ...................................................................... 194 

WITNESSES 

WEDNESDAY, MARCH 25, 2009 

Hon. Janet A. Napolitano, Secretary, U.S. Department of Homeland Security . 5 

Hon. James B. Steinberg, Deputy Secretary, U.S. Department of State ............ 18 

Hon. David W. Ogden, Deputy Attorney General, U.S. Department of Justice . 20 

MONDAY, APRIL 20, 2009 

Hon. Janice K. Brewer, Governor, State of Arizona ............................................. 49 

Hon. Terry Goddard, Attorney General, State of Arizona .................................... 51 

Hon. Phil Gordon, Mayor, City of Phoenix, Arizona ............................................. 65 

Hon. Octavio Garcia-Von Borstel, Mayor, City of Nogales, Arizona ................... 69 

Hon. Ned Norris Jr., Chairman, Tohono O’odham Nation ................................... 71 

Jack F. Harris, Public Safety Manager, City of Phoenix, Arizona ...................... 80 

Clarence W. Dupnik, Sheriff, County of Pima, Arizona ....................................... 83 

Larry A. Dever, Sheriff, County of Cochise, Arizona ............................................ 86 

ALPHABETICAL LIST OF WITNESSES

Brewer, Hon. Janice K.: 

Testimony .......................................................................................................... 49 

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 195 

Dever, Larry A.: 

Testimony .......................................................................................................... 86 

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 251 

Dupnik, Clarence W.: 

Testimony .......................................................................................................... 83 

Prepared statement with attachments ........................................................... 231 

Garcia-Von Borstel, Hon. Octavio: 

Testimony .......................................................................................................... 69 

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 222 

Goddard, Hon. Terry: 

Testimony .......................................................................................................... 51 

Prepared statement with attached charts ...................................................... 199 

Gordon, Hon. Phil: 

Testimony .......................................................................................................... 65 

Prepared statement with attached photographs ............................................ 209 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER
Page

IV 

Harris, Jack F.: 

Testimony .......................................................................................................... 80 

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 227 

Napolitano, Hon. Janet A.: 

Testimony .......................................................................................................... 5 

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 102 

Norris, Hon. Ned, Jr.: 

Testimony .......................................................................................................... 71 

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 224 

Ogden, Hon. David W.: 

Testimony .......................................................................................................... 20 

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 132 

Steinberg, Hon. James B.: 

Testimony .......................................................................................................... 18 

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 121 

APPENDIX 

Responses to post-hearing Questions for the Record from: 

Secretary Napolitano ........................................................................................ 152 

Deputy Attorney General Ogden ..................................................................... 156 

Paul Helmke, President, Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, March 

25, 2009, prepared statement with an attached report .................................... 158 

Joseph M. Arpaio, Sheriff, County of Maricopa, Arizona, April 20, 2009, 

prepared statement .............................................................................................. 255 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER
(1) 

SOUTHERN BORDER VIOLENCE: HOMELAND 

SECURITY THREATS, VULNERABILITIES, 

AND RESPONSIBILITIES 

WEDNESDAY, MARCH 25, 2009 

U.S. SENATE,

COMMITTEE ON HOMELAND SECURITY

AND GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS, 

Washington, DC. 

The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 9:31 a.m., in room 

SD–342, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. Joseph I. Lieberman, Chairman of the Committee, presiding. 

Present: Senators Lieberman, Akaka, Carper, Pryor, Tester, 

Burris, Bennet, McCain, and Graham. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF CHAIRMAN LIEBERMAN 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Good morning and welcome to this hearing. This morning, we are going to focus in on the ruthless drug 

violence in Mexico, the implications of this violence for the homeland security of the United States, and most important, what our 

government is doing and should be doing about both. 

This is the first of two hearings the Committee has planned on 

this problem for now. The second hearing will take place on April 

20, 2009, in Phoenix, Arizona. 

Today, we are privileged to have as witnesses top officials from 

the three Federal agencies here in Washington that are at the center of our Nation’s response to this crisis. This is their first congressional appearance since yesterday when they released the Administration’s new initiative to contain and respond to Mexican 

drug violence, and I thank Secretary Napolitano, Assistant Secretary Steinberg, and Deputy Attorney General Ogden for being 

with us this morning. 

The facts of this matter are now pretty well documented and appalling. More than 6,000 Mexicans have been killed in drug-related 

violence in the past year. Most of the dead appear to be associated 

in some way with the drug trade, but not all of them. Ten percent 

of the fatalities are actually government officials and police. The 

police chief of Juarez, Mexico, just across the border from El Paso, 

Texas, was forced to resign when drug cartels threatened to kill 

one of his officers every 48 hours unless he stepped down. The 

mayor of Juarez actually lives in El Paso temporarily with his family and commutes to work every day for reasons of safety. 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER
2 

The U.S. Justice Department said in December that the Mexican 

drug cartels are ‘‘the biggest organized crime threat in the United 

States’’ and are present in 230 American cities. 

This morning, Secretary Napolitano will tell us in her testimony 

that Mexican drug cartel violence is ‘‘a homeland security issue in 

which all Americans have a stake.’’ The danger here is clear and 

present. It threatens to get worse. It also follows some puzzling and 

unpredictable patterns. For instance, El Paso has been ranked as 

the third safest city in America, but Juarez, literally a stone’s 

throw away, is the epicenter of the carnage with more than 1,500 

murders last year. 

Drug-related crime has increased in several American border jurisdictions and beyond. Phoenix now ranks first in America and 

second in the world in kidnappings with more than 700 kidnappings in the last 2 years. Most of the kidnappers and their victims are drug smugglers, but innocent victims are always at risk 

of being caught in the cross-fire and, in fact, have been caught in 

the cross-fire. 

The Mexican drug cartels are engaging in brutal and inhumane 

tactics, the kinds that we, on this Committee, and the Secretary 

and the American people have come to expect from terrorists, and 

that is exactly what they have become—attacking police stations 

and other government facilities, kidnapping and killing family 

members or innocent associates of people involved in the drug 

trade, posting the names of officials and law enforcers marked for 

execution, then kidnapping or killing many of those officials and informers, and in a gruesome mirror image of what we have seen 

from terrorism, decapitating their targets. 

The drug cartels tunnel beneath border fences and use their 

blood money to corrupt officials, mostly in Mexico but sometimes 

here in the United States. They are high-tech criminals and killers 

using satellite phones, encrypted radios, and Internet voice technology to shield their communications from the law. According to 

the Office of National Drug Control Policy, the Mexican drug cartels, as I mentioned, are operating in 230 American cities, from Appalachia to Alaska. 

The bottom line is this: We must do everything within our power 

to help the Mexican government disable the cartels and prevent 

them from exporting their drugs and destruction any further to 

America. 

Our good neighbor to the south, Mexico, is a strong country with 

a courageous national administration. President Felipe Calderon 

has taken on the cartels, and the Obama Administration is clearly 

intent on supporting him. Secretary of State Clinton is in Mexico 

City today. Secretary Napolitano and Attorney General Holder will 

be there next week. And President Obama will travel to Mexico in 

mid-April. 

In yesterday’s announcement, the Administration directed the redeployment of Department of Justice (DOJ) and Department of 

Homeland Security (DHS) resources to the border to strengthen the 

prevention and investigation of drug, gun, and bulk cash smuggling 

and to increase southbound vehicle inspections. 

Over the last 2 years, Congress has also appropriated $700 billion for Mexico under the Merida Initiative to better train and 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER
3 

equip Mexican law enforcement, military, and border personnel to 

root out corruption and help reform the Mexican judicial system. 

I look forward to asking Deputy Secretary Steinberg about what 

the hopes of the State Department are now for the Merida Initiative as we go forward. 

I would say that the Obama Administration’s response yesterday 

to the Southwest Border violence represents a significant step forward, but I do not think it is enough. In a letter that I, in my capacity as Chairman of this Committee, sent to the Budget Committee of the Senate regarding the budget for the Department of 

Homeland Security, I recommended an increase of $250 million in 

fiscal year 2010 to hire an additional 1,600 Customs and Border 

Protection (CBP) officers at the ports of entry and exit. I also requested $50 million for Customs and Border Protection to establish 

and enhance fusion centers along our Southwest Border and $50 

million more for Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) to 

hire more agents to work on gun investigations and also for fusions 

centers; and, finally, an additional $35 million for the Human 

Smuggling and Trafficking Center at the Department of Homeland 

Security. 

I think there are also legislative steps that we can take to 

strengthen this fight. If Congress, for instance, closed the gun show 

loophole that allows purchasers to circumvent background checks 

that occur at gun stores, our government’s work would be a lot 

easier and more effective. There is an unusual additional problem 

that we, I think, will want to legislate on: Cash earned from American drug sales, which are the lifeblood of these Mexican drug cartels, is increasingly being smuggled back to Mexico in stored value 

cards. A single card can hold thousands of dollars. It is far less conspicuous, of course, than bundled cash and does not have to be, as 

a matter of law, declared at the border. Unfortunately, these cards 

are not considered legal monetary instruments, and border officials, 

therefore, have little authority to police them. That needs to be 

changed by a new law if we are going to make it harder for the 

cartels to launder their illicit profits. 

In sum, President Felipe Calderon’s gutsy leadership in the fight 

against the drug cartels has provided the United States with an 

unprecedented opportunity to collaborate with him and the Mexican government to defeat the drug cartels that threaten the people 

of both of our countries. In our interest and theirs, we must together seize this opportunity. 

Senator McCain. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR MCCAIN 

Senator MCCAIN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for holding this important hearing, and I look forward to this Committee coming to 

Phoenix, Arizona, on April, 20, so we can get a lot of firsthand testimony as to the enormity and the significance of this challenge to 

our States and our communities all over the Southwest, as well as 

all across America. 

I want to thank our head of Homeland Security, the former Governor of the State of Arizona, who has a very in-depth knowledge 

on this issue. She has been heavily involved in it as governor of our 

State, and I appreciate the fact that you would come today and 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER
4 

share not only your background but also plans as to how we can 

address this issue in the future. And it is a compelling issue. 

Many Americans believe that the escalating violence in Mexico is 

remote. It is not. According to a Justice Department report in December, Mexican cartels and their affiliates ‘‘maintain drug distribution networks or supply drugs to distributors in 230 cities 

across the United States.’’ 

The city of Phoenix is now the kidnapping capital of the United 

States, second only to Mexico City, for the most kidnappings in any 

city in the world. Just last month, 755 criminals living in the 

United States who are allegedly tied to a major Mexican drug-trafficking organization were arrested. 

Few border cities have experiences the level of fear that the citizens of Nogales, Arizona, have felt from the rising violence of Mexican drug cartels. The city of Nogales straddles the border of Sonora, Mexico, and the State of Arizona. Its residents have seen several gun battles break out in broad daylight between Mexican police and the drug cartels. In August, just one block away from the 

U.S. consulate, three men wearing ski masks emerged from a car 

with AK–47 assault weapons and opened fire, killing several men. 

On October 10, 2008, 10 men were killed during a deadly shootout 

and chase between heavily armed members of drug cartels and 

Mexican law enforcement as they sped through the city streets just 

a couple of miles from the border during the early morning hours 

while many Mexicans and Americans were commuting to work. 

The Intelligence Bureau commander for the Arizona Department 

of Public Safety said, ‘‘It was such a heavy firefight that Mexican 

police were actually calling for reinforcements and asking for ammunition from the American side.’’ 

This increase violence led the State Department to issue an alert 

advising Americans traveling to Mexico to use caution because, 

‘‘Large firefights have taken place in many towns and cities across 

Mexico. . . . During some of these incidents, U.S. citizens have 

been trapped and temporarily prevented from leaving the area. 

. . . Criminals have followed and harassed U.S. citizens traveling 

in their vehicles in border areas.’’ It is a sad state of affairs and 

a dramatic change from just a short time ago. 

The United States obviously must do all it can to assist President 

Calderon in his efforts against these violent drug cartels. The prosperity and success of Mexico is essential to the prosperity and the 

success of our own country. We share a border, our economies are 

intertwined, and we are major trading partners with each other. 

I commend the Administration for its announcement yesterday 

that there would be additional personnel deployed to the Southwest 

Border, increased intelligence capability, and better coordination 

with State, local, and Mexican law enforcement authorities, but I 

am convinced we must do much more. Instead, we have reduced 

the funding to the Mexican government for equipment, training, 

and assistance promised as part of the Merida Initiative, and, of 

course, in the United States, perhaps our dirty little secret is that 

between $10 and $16 billion are spent by Americans to pay for 

these illegal drugs, creating a demand. And I look forward to Secretary Napolitano’s comments about that side of this equation as 

to how possibly we can reinvigorate our efforts to try to cut down 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER
5 

1The prepared statement of Secretary Napolitano appears in the Appendix on page 102. 

on what is clearly drawing these drugs to the United States and 

a major factor in this terrible violence that is taking place. 

I think it is time for the United States to show its support for 

our neighbor to the south and support the Mexican people and the 

Calderon administration. 

Mr. Chairman, could I just make a couple of points? 

One, obviously we are creating the demand, and it is, as I have mentioned, between a $11 billion and a $16 billion-a-year business. 

President Calderon is under real assault. Some high-ranking members of his administration and law enforcement officials all over 

Mexico have been assassinated, showing that corruption penetrates 

to literally the highest levels of government, a problem that he is 

wrestling with. But the reason why we are having this showdown 

is that President Calderon is not averting his vision from this issue 

and is willing to take it on. 

Finally, I would like to point out—and I am sure that Secretary 

Napolitano will agree with me—this is an existential threat to the 

government of Mexico, and if the Mexican government fails and is 

taken over by the drug cartels, or large parts of Mexico are taken 

over, it not only has profound consequences for Mexico, but it certainly has most profound consequences for the United States of 

America. This is a serious issue. 

I thank you, Mr. Chairman, for having this hearing. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Thank you, Senator McCain. 

Senator McCain joined the Committee this year. He has been instrumental in urging me and Senator Collins to move forward with 

these hearings today and in Phoenix on April 20, and I appreciate 

what you said just now, Senator McCain. 

I want to indicate for the record that Senator Collins, almost always here, had a conflict with another hearing. It happens to be 

on Alzheimer’s treatments and cures, and she is the co-chair of the 

Senate caucus on that disease. So she wanted to extend her regrets 

to you, Madam Secretary, and to the other witnesses, and obviously 

will be with us as we go through this investigation. 

I want to welcome you today. I thank you for appearing here this 

morning. Thank you for all the experience, firsthand, that you 

bring to this challenge as part of your new responsibilities, and I 

would invite your testimony now. 

STATEMENT OF HON. JANET A. NAPOLITANO,1 SECRETARY, 

U.S. DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY 

Secretary NAPOLITANO. Thank you, Chairman Lieberman and 

Senator McCain, for the opportunity to testify and to inform you 

what we are doing now in response to the drug war that is going 

on in Mexico that does have, as Senator McCain said, profound effects on the American homeland. 

We have seen the violence in Mexico spike. We have seen it spike 

because of the efforts of the Calderon government to take on these 

cartels, and we have seen it spike because we are increasingly trying to shut down the avenues by which the drug trade can move 

drugs into the United States and, therefore, the cartels are fighting 

each other for turf and for precedence. 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER
6 

We are seeing some increases in cartel-related crime in the 

United States. As has been mentioned, kidnappings in Phoenix, for 

example, are related to the drug cartels, and as the Department of 

Justice has itself noted, the cartels are now distributing drugs in 

at least 230 American cities. So the effort to minimize this issue 

as a ‘‘border issue’’ or to suggest that the American people, as a 

whole, do not have a stake in this would be misleading. 

There has always been, I must say, based on my own experience, 

a certain amount of violence and crime associated with drug and 

human trafficking along the border. And I say that as the former 

U.S. Attorney for Arizona, Attorney General of Arizona, and Governor of Arizona, a border State. But what we are seeing now is 

of a level and kind very different than what we have seen in the 

past. 

The 6,000 homicides already noted in the northern states of Mexico is a huge number. But the fact that over 550 of them were assassinations of law enforcement and public official personnel is 

itself chilling. And that indicates itself the seriousness with which 

this battle must be waged. 

Let me turn to what we are doing at the Department of Homeland Security. 

First, we know that the weaponry used in this war in Mexico 

comes primarily, although not exclusively, through the United 

States. Just a few weeks ago, March 7 through 13, 2009, we seized 

997 firearms going into Mexico. That was accompanied by $4.5 million in cash and 45 criminal arrests. But we need to strengthen 

that. 

So we are doubling our Border Enforcement Security Teams 

(BEST). These are teams that are combining DOJ with DHS, State, 

and local officials. They also involve Mexican law enforcement officials. To date, they have literally made thousands of arrests, seized 

tons of drugs, hundreds of weapons, and millions in cash. We will 

double our commitment to those teams along the Southwest Border 

and increase the number of teams. For example, New Mexico has 

not had a BEST team. It will now have a BEST team. 

We will triple the number of Homeland Security intelligence analysts along the Southwest Border because we need to get away 

from the serendipity of a lucky search. We need to make sure to 

increase the yield from searches, and you do that by having better 

intelligence. We are tripling the number of analysts there. 

We are increasing by 50 percent the ICE attache personnel in 

Mexico City. These personnel are primarily working with Department of Treasury officials there and in the United States to combat 

the money laundering that is going on. We call it ‘‘Operation Firewall,’’ but this is an area where I think we can achieve even more 

success than we have to stop that flow of cash into Mexico, into 

these drug cartels. 

We will double the number of Violent Criminal Alien Sections 

along the border. These are designed to prosecute recidivist violent 

aliens that we find. Many of them are working for the cartels. 

We will quadruple the number of border liaison officers. These 

are officers who work to coordinate between American law enforcement personnel and Mexican law enforcement personnel to share 

information and intelligence. 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER
7 

We will increase the technology and resources employed at the 

border, particularly by moving significant biometric identification 

equipment down to the border so that we can trace the fingerprints 

of anyone who is picked up and make sure that they are run 

through ICE databases and the other databases we have before 

anyone would ever be released. 

Previous to this initiative, we had done virtually no screening of 

southbound rail traffic, so we do not really know what was being 

transported into Mexico by rail. There are eight rail lines that go 

into Mexico. We are now screening those rail lines. 

We will move nine Z–Backscatter mobile x-ray units to the border. That is to help identify anomalies in passenger vehicles. For 

example, on southbound cars, what the Backscatter can do is identify whether this car weighs more than it should even loaded with 

passengers, and if it does, it could be referred over to secondary inspection to see if that weight is attributable either to loads of cash 

or arms going into the cartels. 

We are deploying 100 more Border Patrol agents to the ports of 

entry, also to help with southbound inspections. We are moving 12 

teams of cross-trained canines to the ports of entry going south. 

These are cross-trained because they are trained to detect both 

money and guns. 

We are moving three mobile response teams of 25 agents each. 

These are mobile response teams of Border Patrol agents that are 

designed to be mobile, to go where issues are occurring and to provide immediate response. We are moving three more of those teams 

right down to the border, and we are moving more license plate 

readers to the ports of entry. 

In addition to what we are doing at the Federal level, we understand that State and local law enforcement in the border areas is 

heavily affected by the increase in violence and the associated 

crime committed by these cartels and their members. We are, 

therefore, revising Operation Stonegarden grant funding to increase the types of missions that those monies can be used for, to 

pay additional law enforcement personnel, overtime, travel and 

lodging expenses for deployment of local law enforcement to the 

border cities. We anticipate an additional $59 million will be accessible to border law enforcement by expanding the guidance for 

those Stonegarden funds. 

In addition, we are reaching out to local border communities. I 

have sent some individuals down there now to personally stay in 

touch so we know on a real-time basis what is happening, and I 

myself am scheduling bi-monthly conference calls with border 

chiefs of police and sheriffs. 

These actions so far are designed to be budget neutral. What I 

have done is identify other activities that are less urgent fund balances to be able to move these resources where I think they are 

needed most. We may need some minor reprogramming, Mr. Chairman, but I believe that staff members are already apprised of that 

or are being apprised of that. But for the time being, we anticipate 

all of these actions by the Department to be within the budget that 

we have been given by the Congress. 

Senator McCain asked about demand. This is a supply issue. It 

is indeed also a demand issue. I will be delighted to work with the 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER
8 

new drug czar, if he is confirmed, but I was also pleased to see that 

there was almost $70 million included in the stimulus bill for drug 

courts at the State and local level. Those have been very helpful 

in identifying non-violent drug offenders and getting them into 

treatment as opposed to the prison system, and that does help on 

the demand side. But undoubtedly there is much more we ought 

to be doing as a country where these illegal narcotics are concerned. 

We are working very closely with the Department—— 

Senator MCCAIN. Ma’am, could you say a couple of words about 

the programs in Arizona? 

Secretary NAPOLITANO. Yes. In Maricopa County and in Pima 

County, the two urban counties of Arizona, there is a very extensive drug court program, and it works exactly as I just described. 

It is used primarily for first-time, non-violent offenders. They tend 

to be younger, and with their one experience with the criminal justice system, they do have an incentive not to experience it again. 

And they receive basically very intensive follow-up through the 

drug court system to keep them out of the prison system. 

Senator MCCAIN. And it has been successful? 

Secretary NAPOLITANO. It has been successful, yes, sir. 

With that, Mr. Chairman, I will conclude my remarks and, again, 

thank you for holding this hearing, the hearing that you are going 

to have on April 20, and for the Committee’s interest in this very 

important issue. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Thanks very much, Madam Secretary. We 

will do 7-minute rounds to start out with. 

As you know, there are some people who have suggested that 

while the Mexican drug cartels have obviously been involved and 

caused a wave of terrible violence in Mexico, some of us here, including people in public office and the media, are kind of overstating the impact of that on the United States. Am I correct from 

your statement in reaching the conclusion that, as Secretary of 

Homeland Security, you believe that Mexican drug cartel violence 

is a real threat to the homeland security of the United States? 

Secretary NAPOLITANO. I agree, and it takes several forms. It 

does take the form of some increased violence now in the United 

States. It also takes the form of a threat that spillover violence of 

a significant nature will occur. And I believe as Secretary of Homeland Security, one of the duties I have is to identify threats and 

try to prevent those threats from actualizing in the homeland. 

And, third, these cartels have fingertips that reach throughout 

the United States, and they are responsible for a large amount of 

so-called street crime in our neighborhoods, on our streets, in our 

communities. And that in and of itself lends to a feeling of insecurity in different areas of the United States. 

So for all of those reasons, Homeland Security needs to be involved. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. You mentioned the danger of spillover of 

the violence. Obviously some has occurred already, but more broadly, the previous Administration left a contingency plan in place, I 

gather, should violence begin to spill over. I know that you have 

said that you are currently reviewing this plan and that you were 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER
9 

concerned that it did not include State and local law enforcement 

as much as it should have. 

I wonder if you could indicate to us where you are in the review 

of the plan and when you hope to have it ready. 

Secretary NAPOLITANO. Yes, Senator. We actually have a position, Assistant Secretary for State and Local Law Enforcement. I 

deployed him to go to the border to personally sit down with police 

chiefs, sheriffs, and so forth and to review the plan, give us their 

input. 

I would anticipate that we would incorporate that and have a 

working document that we would be using within the next several 

weeks. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Will you try to state in the document 

what the trigger is here, what the threshold is? In other words, 

when you, as Secretary, decide that the spillover of the violence has 

reached a point where you want to implement contingency plans in 

the interest of the homeland security of the United States? 

Secretary NAPOLITANO. I do not believe, Mr. Chairman, that it 

will be expressed numerically. That is too difficult to ascertain. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Right. 

Secretary NAPOLITANO. But I think it will be expressed in terms 

of what are the factors that would lead me, as the Secretary, to determine that plan needs to be deployed. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Good enough. We look forward to that 

plan as it comes along. 

I thought that yesterday’s announcement, which you have documented again today, of what the Administration intends to do was 

significant. It is particularly a significant redeployment of investigators and agents to the border to focus on interdicting the cartels’ drug, gun, and bulk cash smuggling. But I will tell you that 

I am concerned that transferring these resources from other parts 

of the country is not sustainable in the long term and probably 

does not allow you to do everything we want to equip you to do on 

the border without increasing the overall resources available to the 

Department. And that is why I made the recommendations I did 

to the Budget Committee and why I intend to fight for more resources for the Department, particularly for Customs and Border 

Protection and Immigration and Customs Enforcement. 

Do you want to give a reaction to that? I am sure if we gave you 

the money, you would be happy to take it and use it well. But let 

me ask it this way: Are you considering modifying your fiscal year 

2010 budget request to enable you to continue the presence of all 

these additional personnel—350 it looks to be, from yesterday’s announcement—at the border without compromising your mission 

elsewhere in the country? 

Secretary NAPOLITANO. Mr. Chairman, I believe that the fiscal 

year 2010 numbers are still being finalized. Right now, my belief 

is that I can sustain what I have described to you through fiscal 

year 2010. But obviously budgets and threat environments are always changing, and so we will obviously keep you apprised of that 

situation. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. So we may have a friendly disagreement. 

I may try to get you more resources that you are asking for. But 

I would rather—— [Laughter.] 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER
10 

Which is unusual. 

Secretary NAPOLITANO. I do not have Office of Management and 

Budget Director Peter Orszag sitting next to me, but I can feel his 

presence behind me. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. But you and I have a longstanding separate relationship, and we can build on that. 

Seriously, I think you are going to need more resources to get 

this job done, and also, this is a kind of war, and part of this is 

deterrence. And the increase of personnel at the border and the 

kind of sophisticated equipment you have talked about and intelligence resources are going to be critical to making life miserable 

for the drug cartels. And when life is miserable for them, it is obviously better for us. 

I think I saw in the media that you are seeing Governor Perry 

of Texas today. You know that he has asked, as I believe the Governor of Arizona has, for some deployment of National Guard to the 

Southwest Border. What is your current position on that? 

Secretary NAPOLITANO. Mr. Chairman, I will actually be in Texas 

tomorrow, and I will be spending some time with Governor Perry, 

and I want to—he basically said, ‘‘I want a thousand National 

Guard.’’ 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Right. 

Secretary NAPOLITANO. It was a fair request—but without specificity. And so I want to talk with him specifically about why 1,000. 

Is that a magic number? How was it derived? And where would 

they go, what would their mission be? And the issue of National 

Guard performing some capacity to support civilian law enforcement at the border is still under consideration by the Administration. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Thank you. My time is up. Senator 

McCain. 

Senator MCCAIN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

So you are undecided about the issue of National Guard troops 

to the border? And if so, in what capacity? 

Secretary NAPOLITANO. Senator, it is still under consideration. 

Senator MCCAIN. You mentioned that you are redeploying forces 

to the border from other areas. Where are they coming from? 

Secretary NAPOLITANO. We can give you detail on that. There are 

literally a few from here, a few from there, a few from here. We 

have not redeployed from the Northern Border. I think that is important to say. We have delayed purchases of equipment to help 

support the movement of agents. We have also delayed some other 

initiatives in order to fund this, and then we are using unexpended 

fund balances from fiscal year 2006 and 2008. 

Senator MCCAIN. Well, I would appreciate it if you would for the 

record give us the areas where you are taking these resources from. 

I understand the decision, and we would be interested where they 

are moved to. 

Today’s Wall Street Journal, March 25, 2009, says, ‘‘U.S. to Send 

More Agents to Curb Border Violence.’’ And then it says, ‘‘However, 

competing agencies have refused to work together on the task 

forces that the Administration is bolstering to target the drugs, 

guns, and cash that are fueling fighting among Mexico’s drug lords, 

according to the agency officials. 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER
11 

‘‘And adding to the problem, the agencies are operating under 

rules that are up to three decades old, said former senior agency 

officials and members of Congress involved in the oversight.’’ 

And then it goes on to say that the problem of ‘‘the Bureau of 

Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives was refusing to allow 

some of its agents to participate in several of the special task force 

groups established by the Department of Homeland Security to coordinate border efforts to crack down on guns and drug proceeds 

headed to Mexico, said bureau and Homeland Security officials. 

‘‘While bureau agents work on these task forces in Texas, regional leaders have refused to join the same effort in Arizona, officials from both agencies acknowledged.’’ 

Do you have a response to that Wall Street Journal statement 

and, obviously, those comments from officials in the Department of 

Justice, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms and Explosives 

(ATF), and the Department of Homeland Security? 

Secretary NAPOLITANO. Yes, Senator, I read that article from 

unnamed officials, and I am glad that the Deputy Attorney General 

is here, but he and I and the Attorney General are united in this 

effort. And we understand that it requires the Department of Justice and the Department of Homeland Security agents and employees to work together to maximize the deployment of resources at 

the border. And when it comes to our attention that there is some 

competition or non-cooperation going on, we are going to repair 

that. 

Senator MCCAIN. Well, is it true that your agents working on 

task forces in Texas have refused to join the same effort in Arizona? Is that true or not true? 

Secretary NAPOLITANO. I do not know the answer to that question, and I am going to find out. But if it is true, it is going to be 

fixed. 

Senator MCCAIN. Thank you. I would be interested in, again, for 

the record, if you would supply a response to that. I think it is an 

important question. 

On the issue of funding, the Washington Post today said, ‘‘U.S. 

Stepping Up Response to Mexican Drug Violence,’’ it goes on to say, 

‘‘But some experts said the tools deployed represent a tiny first 

step toward what is needed. 

‘‘Retired Army Gen. Barry McCaffrey, the Nation’s drug czar during the Clinton Administration, said that adding ‘a handful of platoon-sized units’ will not check the problem and that the amount 

committed is minuscule compared with the $2.5 billion the U.S. 

military spends in Afghanistan each month and the $12 billion 

going to Iraq. 

‘‘ ‘It’s commendable they’re paying attention,’ McCaffrey said. 

But, he added, ‘where’s our sense of priorities?’ ’’ 

Do you have a response to General McCaffrey’s comments? 

Secretary NAPOLITANO. Well, on the one hand, I would disagree. 

It is interesting, Senator Lieberman in his comments began with 

the fact that there have been decreasing violent crime statistics in 

the United States so why are we doing this. That is one press attack. And then the other one is, well, we are not doing enough. 

Here is what we have done. What we have done is analyze what 

is going on, including the efforts of State and local law enforcement 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER
12 

along the border and what is happening in Mexico. We have done 

an analysis of what the Department of Homeland Security can contribute to that that would have the most effect, both in manpower 

and technology. And then we have worked with the Department of 

Justice in terms of what they will contribute to the effort. And 

then, of course, there is the Merida Initiative that you are going 

to be hearing about later. 

Our goal is to obviously address this in the most serious way possible. If we need to scale up, that will be something that we will 

bring to you. If we can scale back over time, obviously that is something as well. But for this time and train, these are the actions 

that immediately will be undertaken to make sure that the threat 

of spillover violence is contained and that we are assisting President Calderon in his efforts. 

Senator MCCAIN. Besides the drug courts that you mentioned in 

Maricopa County and Pima County in Arizona, what other programs have you observed in your time as U.S. Attorney, Attorney 

General, and Governor that have been successful in trying to address the demand side of this issue? 

Secretary NAPOLITANO. Senator, I would like to be able to respond at greater length about that to you and think about it. I will 

tell you that, in general, the characteristics of a successful drug 

prevention strategy require an education side, a public media side, 

and then an immediate intervention and treatment side. It is really 

a three-legged stool. And if you only fund one leg or two legs, you 

do not really get the effect on drug demand reduction. 

I will also share with you that in certain drugs—for example, 

methamphetamine—I am not sure that we yet have, once someone 

is addicted, a good treatment regime. But I would be pleased to 

supply you with a list specifically of certain programs around the 

United States that I think have been more effective than others. 

Senator MCCAIN. Are you generally in agreement with my comment that this struggle that Calderon and the Mexican government 

are engaged in with the drug cartels is an existential threat to the 

very fabric of the government of Mexico? Do you agree with that 

statement? 

Secretary NAPOLITANO. Yes. 

Senator MCCAIN. I thank you. Thank you very much for being 

here today, and we look forward to chatting with you after your 

trip down to Mexico, and thanks for your good work. 

Secretary NAPOLITANO. Thank you. 

Senator MCCAIN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Thanks, Senator McCain. Senator 

Graham, good morning. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR GRAHAM 

Senator GRAHAM. Good morning, Mr. Chairman. Thank you. 

Madam Secretary, is there any laws that need to be changed to 

combat this threat in the United States that you can think of in 

terms of guns, money, or wire transfers? 

Secretary NAPOLITANO. Senator Lieberman mentioned the issue 

of the service cards that are being used in lieu of cash. That may 

be something to be looked at. The initiative that we are embarked 

on, however, Senator, does not require any change of laws. 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER
13 

Senator GRAHAM. Is it fair to say you are comfortable with the 

laws that we have in place to deal with the problems of Mexico? 

Secretary NAPOLITANO. I am comfortable that the laws we have 

in place are the laws we are going to enforce and will allow us to 

take on the initiatives that I have described to the Committee. 

Senator GRAHAM. When it comes to budgeting, what you might 

need in the future and having to defer some purchases, do you 

think a supplemental request would be appropriate here? 

Secretary NAPOLITANO. Senator, right now in light of the other 

demands on the budget and the economic exigencies of the situation, I viewed it as my responsibility to find a way to pay for this 

with the money that Congress has appropriated. 

Senator GRAHAM. Well, that gets us to a point—we are spending 

money very quickly on some things that are very controversial, and 

there is a lot of pushback. I doubt that there would be a lot of 

pushback—I cannot think of anything more important right now, 

really. You are at war in Iraq and Afghanistan. Our neighbor to 

the south is under siege. The government is being threatened. Its 

very existence in Mexico has been threatened. I cannot think of a 

better use of the Congress’ time and efforts to come together and 

come up with a game plan to deal with our consumption back here 

at home, to beef up resources to your agency and the Department 

of Justice, to really go after consumption at home, create a very robust national drug court system that deals with this head on. I 

cannot think of a better use of our time and public dollars than to 

come up with a more robust presence on the border, whether it be 

military or other agencies involved. And I do not think you should 

have to put off purchases. 

I think we are missing the boat here. I think this is an opportunity to get the Congress and the White House together and really 

go after this problem. So it is, quite frankly, not appropriate, in my 

opinion, to say that we have budget problems when it comes to 

this. We have a lot of conflict about the budget, but this is one area 

where I think most Americans would cheer us if we spent some 

money wisely. 

What do you think about that? 

Secretary NAPOLITANO. Senator, I think that I agree with you 

about the seriousness of the situation. I agree with you that reducing drug demand in this country is something that would have a 

beneficial effect in all kinds of ways, not just in terms of Federal 

dollars but State and local dollars that have to be spent because 

of the plague of drug abuse and drug usage in our communities. 

But for this day and train on this initiative, I am not requesting 

a supplemental. 

Senator GRAHAM. Well, you are the Secretary of Homeland Security, and Senator McCain asked you what programs have worked 

and what programs have promise, and you gave a very thoughtful 

answer: ‘‘Let me think about it.’’ Well, I would encourage you not 

only to think about it, but come back to us and say, ‘‘Help me fund 

it.’’ 

When it comes to the idea of how to use the military, if you think 

there is a need for it, let us get all in. I guess my point is let us 

be all in. What I see happening is encouraging, but I do not think 

this country is all in, in this fight. And I cannot think of a more 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER
14 

dire consequence to the United States really in many ways than to 

have Mexico just collapse. 

So I would urge you, when it comes to budget matters, programs 

that need funding, to be more aggressive, lean forward. 

Secretary NAPOLITANO. Senator, I appreciate that thought. I 

think I will have a better sense after my meetings in Mexico next 

week, and I would be happy to report back to the Committee on 

what we have learned there. 

I believe this will be an ongoing issue; in other words, I do not 

believe what we announced yesterday, what I have informed the 

Committee of today, is the last word that is going to be said on this 

subject. This is going to be something that is going to require efforts over time. 

Senator GRAHAM. Well, if you need somebody to help you up 

here, I would be glad to call him and say, ‘‘Peter, there is a lot of 

bipartisan support for some spending here that would make some 

sense.’’ 

So thank you very much. I know you understand these issues 

well, having lived in Arizona, and just let us get all in and win this 

thing. 

Thank you very much. 

Secretary NAPOLITANO. Thank you, Senator. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Thanks very much, Senator Graham. You 

have expressed, I think, what the feeling on the Committee is, and 

I would guess in the Senate generally. I think we will make an opportunity to introduce an amendment to the budget resolution to 

increase support to your Department and perhaps to the State and 

Justice Departments as well for this fight. And if there is a supplemental, we will probably try to do the same, just to make sure that 

you have—it is up to you then to determine how to use that, but 

I do not want you to feel or to be underresourced in deterring this 

violence from coming over the border and in aiding our allies in 

Mexico in defeating it. 

Senator Burris, thanks for being here. Good morning. 

Senator BURRIS. Good morning, Mr. Chairman. Thank you very 

much. And congratulations to you, Madam Secretary. You have had 

a stellar career. Among us, all have been Attorneys General, and 

you are looking at two of us, so we certainly appreciate your extended service to not only the great State of Arizona but to America. 

Secretary NAPOLITANO. Thank you. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR BURRIS 

Senator BURRIS. And by way of a statement, it is clear that solving the border violence will require local and Federal agencies to 

coordinate their plans and their information. This violence is a terrible consequence of our continued fight against illegal drugs and 

those that promote them. A victory in this fight is a victory for our 

shared security benefits, not only on our borders, but also throughout America, which I am going to get to in a moment. However, we 

must realize that this problem is systemic and that we must utilize 

all the tactics that we have to review today in order to dismantle 

these criminal cartels effectively. Creating a successful deterrent to 

the trafficking of illegal arms and drugs is fundamental. But in 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER
15 

order to decrease crime, we must also disrupt the network that 

funds it. And I hope that we can support President Calderon’s 

brave effort to secure our border and destroy the roots of this evergrowing problem before they do any more damage. 

Now, as I mentioned, Madam Secretary, Operation Xcellerator 

and Project Reckoning were both multinational victories. Can we 

replicate these successes to weaken other cartels? And how can we 

use the lessons we learned from our earlier operations to make border enforcement more effective? 

Secretary NAPOLITANO. Senator, there are a combination of 

things that need to occur, and it is really at several levels. One is 

we cannot fight the cartels in the United States. In other words, 

they are based in Mexico. The leaders of the cartels are in Mexico. 

Their power base is in Mexico. That is why we want to be working 

with the Calderon government so closely in their efforts to dismantle these cartels, which have grown ever more stronger over 

the last 10 or 15 years. 

Second, we have to make our border presence more robust, not 

just in terms of northbound interdiction but in terms of southbound 

interdiction, particularly where arms and cash are involved. 

And then, third, we have to do a better job at disrupting the drug 

distribution networks that find their way into our neighborhoods 

and communities, and that goes to the demand side in part that 

Senator McCain was talking about. 

Senator BURRIS. That is what I also want to discuss. If we deal 

with the demand side and we cut down on the demand through 

treatment and various—what do you call it, the three-legged stool 

where you have the education, the treatment—and whatever the 

third leg is on that. 

Secretary NAPOLITANO. The media, the public part of it, where 

you have constant media messages. 

Senator BURRIS. Yes, because if there is no demand, there will 

be no supply, and this is what we always maintain. In some kind 

of way, we have to get to our communities to deal with those individuals who are selling and those who are using. If we cut down 

on the users—are we looking at any—because you have the drug 

czar or some other type of program, are they a part of the overall 

efforts with Homeland Security on our side to try to deal with the 

demand problem? 

Secretary NAPOLITANO. Senator, assuming that the nominee is 

confirmed—and I personally do not know the timing on that—I am 

going to actually reach out with the Office of National Drug Control Policy (ONDCP) to make sure they are incorporated in our efforts. 

Senator BURRIS. Another question, too, in terms of this jurisdictional situation where you have all these agencies together, are 

these agencies going to be able to function together with all these 

questions up in the air? Do you have turf problems appearing as 

you now try to pull Justice and Homeland Security and your other 

agencies together? Are you going to be able to work out all your 

turf problems? 

Secretary NAPOLITANO. Well, Senator, following up, again, on an 

earlier question in a Wall Street Journal article today, I believe 

that the Attorney General and I—we have worked together for 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER
16 

many years on issues, and our common goal is if some of those residual turf issues are being played out in the field and they are 

interfering with our goal of strengthening the border and getting 

at these cartels, we are going to fix that. 

Senator BURRIS. I know that you and Attorney General Eric 

Holder, you all have worked together, but getting it down through 

the ranks is where the problem occurs. And with your experience 

in government, I am sure you are familiar with how you can bring 

something down from the top, but getting it to be operating 

amongst the operators, it is not always easy. 

Secretary NAPOLITANO. Again, if there really is a situation that 

has developed, we will get it resolved. Let me be very clear. I think 

law enforcement in the field understands the risk of these cartels, 

the danger that they pose, and the strength that they have. So we 

will work through some of those issues if they are indeed interfering with our ability to disrupt the cartel action in the United 

States. 

Senator BURRIS. And having been the governor of Arizona, the 

prosecutor, the Attorney General right on that border, I am pretty 

sure you have a pretty good insight into what is taking place. Is 

that not correct, Madam Secretary? 

Secretary NAPOLITANO. I would like to believe I do, yes, Senator. 

Senator BURRIS. Well, we are hoping that you are in the right 

place at the right time to do the job for the American people and 

the Mexican people to do what we can. But my position is, Madam 

Secretary, we have to do something about the demand at home. We 

have to stop the users and the ability for individuals to acquire 

those drugs and start treating those people who are drug addicted 

rather than locking them up and putting them in prison, which is 

also raising our costs. 

Secretary NAPOLITANO. Yes, Senator. 

Senator BURRIS. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Thanks, Senator Burris. 

I just have one more question. If either of my colleagues have 

one more, they are welcome to ask as well. 

I just want to ask you to speak a little bit more—I am going to 

ask the Department of Justice witness as well—about what you can 

do through DHS to cut the flow of weapons from the United States 

to Mexico. Obviously, in the normal course of things—and you correct me if I am wrong, but my impression is that exit inspections 

do not happen very often. In other words, when people are leaving 

the United States, there are random inspections, but not very rigorous. So one obvious thing to do is to have more rigorous inspections at least at the Southern Border, as people are leaving the 

country. I just wanted to give you a moment to comment, Madam 

Secretary, on what specific actions additionally you are thinking 

about taking to clamp down on the southern flow of illegal firearms. Do you need any additional legal authority to do that? And, 

of course, that is one of the reasons why I know you have redeployed and why I think you should have more personnel to carry 

out that particular function. 

Secretary NAPOLITANO. Yes, Senator, a great deal of the actions 

I described earlier are designed to give us a southbound presence; 

in other words, our history has been focusing on goods and people 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER
17 

coming north. What we are trying to do now is, in addition to that, 

interrupt the flow of guns and cash going south. That is why we 

are going to be inspecting on southbound lanes. That is why we are 

deploying technology down there that allows us to scan vehicles 

and to weigh vehicles. 

One of the areas of coordination with Mexican law enforcement 

that we will be discussing next week is, given the number of lanes 

that go south into Mexico from the United States, Mexico has customs as well; they can also do southbound inspections. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Right. 

Secretary NAPOLITANO. And so dividing it up—we will do some, 

they will do some others—that is where the coordination aspect 

comes in. 

And then as I suggested before, we need to get beyond getting 

lucky at a lane inspection. That is why we need more intelligence 

and intelligence gathering about what vehicles are likely to be carrying these guns and this cash. And so that is why more intelligence analysts are being used at the border and deployed there 

as well. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Senator McCain, do you have another 

question? 

Senator MCCAIN. No. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Let me just go back, and forgive me. Senator Burris, do you have one? 

Senator BURRIS. No, Mr. Chairman. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. I will just follow up quickly. How about 

a reaction to the concern about sales at gun shows? In other words, 

the Brady law creates a check on a person before they can buy a 

gun at a licensed gun store. At a gun show, the fact is that they 

do not have to go through that minimal check about criminal 

record, for instance. 

Would that help, do you think, to close the so-called gun show 

loophole? 

Secretary NAPOLITANO. We may have a better sense of that as we 

increase seizures. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Right. 

Secretary NAPOLITANO. But, anecdotally, a number have been 

purchased at gun shows. The issue for me as the Homeland Security Secretary, Senator, is that we need to act now, and as you 

know, that sort of a statute would take awhile to wend its way 

through. 

So my view is I have to play the hand of cards I have, and the 

hand of cards I have allows me to do southbound seizures, and the 

hand of cards I have allows me to increase intelligence gathering, 

and the hand of cards I have allows me to coordinate better with 

Mexican law enforcement. So that is what I am going to do. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Good enough. And I think the question of 

that law is obviously more in our court than in yours. I thank you 

very much for your testimony. To say the obvious that you know 

well from all your experience, we did not get to this point of crisis 

overnight, and we are not going to get out of it overnight. But we 

certainly appreciate the steps you have taken, and we want to 

work with you in the time ahead to both strengthen and protect 

our allies to the south and to protect ourselves as well. 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER
18 

1The prepared statement of Mr. Steinberg appears in the Appendix on page 121. 

Thank you very much for being here. 

Secretary NAPOLITANO. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, 

Senator. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Thank you. 

We will now call the second panel: Deputy Secretary of State Jim 

Steinberg and Deputy Attorney General David Ogden. 

Good morning, gentlemen. Thanks very much for being here. 

Deputy Secretary Steinberg, I appreciate your presence. I know 

that the Secretary herself is actually in Mexico today, so we thank 

you for being here, and we would welcome your testimony at this 

time. 

STATEMENT OF HON. JAMES B. STEINBERG,1 DEPUTY 

SECRETARY, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF STATE 

Mr. STEINBERG. Well, thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. It is 

a great pleasure to be here with you, Senator McCain, Senator 

Burris, to talk about the issues that you have raised this morning 

about violence, organized crime, and the threat that drug trafficking poses to the United States and to Mexico and our common 

efforts to address the challenges that we face along our shared border. And I am particularly delighted to be here with my colleagues 

from the Justice Department and Secretary Napolitano. I think it 

is important that we are all here together to represent the common 

effort that we are all engage in, in partnership with Mexico, to address this challenge. 

I have a more extensive statement for the record, but I would 

just like to summarize a few points for you this morning. And as 

you noted, we are appearing at an important moment, as the Secretary is just on her way at this very moment down to Mexico City 

to meet with her Mexican counterparts and President Calderon to 

talk about the shared challenge. 

Her trip as well as President Obama’s upcoming trip in April and 

the trips of the Secretary of DHS and the Attorney General highlight the importance that the Obama Administration places on the 

issue before us and the great opportunity that we have to build a 

stronger relationship with Mexico—one that can advance a wide 

range of shared interests and better position both of our societies 

for lasting success. It is important as we address the specific issue 

today that we do not lose sight of the bigger and bolder promise 

in the relationship between the United States and Mexico that will 

allow us to work together to address the global economic crisis, energy and environmental issues, and regional cooperation. But I do 

want to focus my remarks today on the urgent challenges we face 

in addressing the threat of drug trafficking and violence. 

As you yourself noted, Mr. Chairman, President Calderon has 

taken courageous and decisive actions against transnational criminal organizations by conducting counter-narcotics operations 

throughout his country and initiating large-scale police and judicial 

reform. The Mexican government’s offensive and inter- and intracartel feuds over access to prime trafficking routes to the United 

States have driven the number of drug-related assassinations and 

kidnappings to unprecedented levels. The cartels have become inVerDate Nov 24 2008 10:46 Jan 12, 2011 Jkt 050382 PO 00000 Frm 00022 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 P:\DOCS\50382.TXT SAFFAIRS PsN: PAT

ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER
19 

creasingly brazen, targeting police, the military, and other security 

personnel, as well as journalists. 

It is against this backdrop that our two governments jointly developed the Merida Initiative, a strategic approach that recognizes 

the nature and magnitude of our shared challenge and expands our 

cooperation and work together in an unprecedented and collaborative fashion. I think it is appropriate to express our appreciation 

to you and the Congress for the strong bipartisan support for the 

Merida Initiative. Congress appropriated $465 million for the first 

phase of the initiative in the fiscal year 2008 supplemental allocating $400 million for Mexico and $65 million for Central America 

and the Caribbean. An additional $410 million was recently appropriated in the Omnibus Appropriation Act, with approximately 

$300 million for Mexico and $105 million for Central America. 

The State Department has been charged with overseeing the 

largest portion of Merida funding through implementing these foreign assistance funds in a collaborative and interagency effort. The 

State Department is working closely with the U.S. Agency for 

International Development (USAID), the Departments of Defense, 

Homeland Security, Justice, and Treasury both in Washington and 

at our embassies in the region, as well as with our host nation’s 

partners. And as we enter the phase of concrete collaboration and 

implementation, our collaboration will accelerate. 

There are two critical areas in which the Merida Initiative will 

make an important difference: Interdiction and border security and 

judicial reform. 

Interdiction and border security funding, including support for 

the Mexican counterparts of our Federal law enforcement agency, 

focuses on support for enhanced information systems; purchasing 

special investigative equipment, vehicles, and computers for the 

new Mexican Federal Police Corps; and assessing security and installing equipment at Mexico’s largest seaports. 

We are also providing inspection equipment and associated training to support the inspection capabilities of police, customs and immigration; and facilitating the real-time exchange of information 

related to potential targets. An expansion of eTrace, a weapons 

tracing program, will enable increased arms-trafficking investigations and prosecutions. Additional transport and light aircraft will 

improve interoperability and give security agencies the capability 

to rapidly reinforce law enforcement operations nationwide. 

Judicial reform efforts are equally critical. Merida includes efforts to improve crime prevention, modernize Mexican police forces, 

and strengthen institution building and the rule of law. Through 

case management software, technical assistance programs, and 

equipment, we will support Mexico’s judicial and police reforms by 

enhancing their ability to investigate, convict, sentence, and securely detain those who commit crimes. Training programs will 

support the development of offices of professional responsibility and 

new institutions to receive and act on citizen complaints. 

Initial projects under the initiative have begun to roll out, including a bilateral workshop on strategies on prevention and prosecution of arms trafficking; the implementation of an anti-traffickingin-persons system for the Attorney General’s Office this month, the 

opening of three immigration control sites along the Mexico-GuateVerDate Nov 24 2008 10:46 Jan 12, 2011 Jkt 050382 PO 00000 Frm 00023 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 P:\DOCS\50382.TXT SAFFAIRS PsN: PAT

ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER
20 

1The prepared statement of Mr. Ogden appears in the Appendix on page 132. 

mala border that will issue biometric credentials to frequent Guatemalan border crossers, and a train-the-trainer program for Mexican 

Secretary of Public Security’s corrections officers. 

We are also working with the Defense Department to accelerate 

the procurement and delivery of much-needed helicopters. This effort requires that we act swiftly and closely with our Mexican and 

interagency partners to respond to urgent needs. 

To conclude, I want to emphasize that every party in the Merida 

Initiative recognizes that we share common objectives and responsibilities and that a true partnership is required to provide our citizens the safety and security they deserve. The government of Mexico has clearly demonstrated a willingness to take strong and decisive action. 

While the Merida Initiative was born out of crisis, this provides 

us with a strategic opportunity to reshape our cooperation and expand dialogue with our partners both in Mexico and throughout 

the hemisphere on critical security and law enforcement issues. 

Thank you and I look forward to your questions. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Thanks very much, Deputy Secretary 

Steinberg, for an excellent statement. 

Senator Burris and I are former Attorneys General at the State 

level, and we agree that one thing that we miss coming to the Senate is being called ‘‘General.’’ [Laughter.] 

I do not know whether as Deputy Attorney General you get that 

title, too, but anyway, Deputy Attorney General Ogden, thanks for 

being here. 

STATEMENT OF HON. DAVID W. OGDEN,1 DEPUTY ATTORNEY 

GENERAL, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE 

Mr. OGDEN. Thank you very much, Chairman Lieberman, Senator McCain, and Senator Burris. I suppose maybe I am ‘‘Deputy 

General.’’ I do not know. 

I appreciate very much the opportunity to appear before you 

today to discuss the Justice Department’s role in addressing the 

alarming rise of violence perpetrated in Mexico by warring Mexican 

drug-trafficking organizations and the effects of that violence on 

the United States, particularly along our Southwest Border. I want 

to share with you our strategy systematically to dismantle the cartels, which currently threaten the national security of our Mexican 

neighbors, pose an organized crime threat to the United States, as 

has been discussed, and are responsible for the scourge of illicit 

drugs and accompanying violence in both countries. 

Although the drug-related violence in Mexico has existed over 

the years, as Secretary Napolitano indicated, the bloodshed has escalated in recent months to unprecedented levels as the cartels try 

to use violence as a tool to undermine public support for the government’s vigorous counter-drug efforts. 

A significant portion of this increase in violence actually reflects 

progress, counterintuitively, by the governments of Mexico and the 

United States in disrupting the activities of these drug cartels 

since President Felipe Calderon and Attorney General Eduardo 

Medina Mora took office in 2006. As the Justice Department and 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER
21 

our Federal agency partners have worked with the Mexican authorities to disrupt and dismantle successive iterations of the leadership of these cartels, their successors have escalated the fighting 

among themselves for control of the lucrative smuggling corridors 

along the Southwest Border. 

This explosion of violence along the Southwest Border is caused 

by a limited number of large, sophisticated, and vicious criminal organizations, not by individual drug traffickers in isolation. Indeed, 

the Justice Department’s National Drug Intelligence Center has 

identified the Mexican drug cartels, as has been mentioned this 

morning, as the greatest organized crime threat facing the United 

States today. That insight drives our response. 

There is much to do and much to improve. But the Department’s 

strategy means to confront the Mexican cartels as criminal organizations rather than simply responding to individual criminal acts. 

For more than a quarter century, the principal law enforcement 

agencies in this country have recognized that the best way to fight 

the most sophisticated and powerful criminal organizations is 

through intelligence-based, prosecutor-led task forces that leverage 

the strength, resources, and expertise of the full spectrum of Federal, State, local, and international investigative and prosecutorial 

agencies. It was this approach, for example, that fueled the groundbreaking Mafia prosecutions in the United States and Italy in the 

late 1980s and 1990s that really brought down La Cosa Nostra. 

The Department is applying these same intelligence-driven tactics 

that broke the back of the Mob to fighting the Mexican drug cartels. 

Our strategy to identify, disrupt, and dismantle the cartels has 

five key elements. 

First, it employs extensive and coordinated intelligence capabilities. We pool information generated by our law enforcement agencies and Federal, State, and local government partners, and our 

Mexican and our foreign counterparts, and then use that product 

systematically to direct operations in the United States and to support the efforts of the Mexican authorities to attack the cartels and 

the corruption that facilitates their operations. I want to entirely 

endorse Secretary Napolitano’s comments in response to the questions from the panel concerning the issue of coordination. It is essential that we have full and complete cooperation between our departments. I know the Attorney General and I have a long working 

relationship with the Secretary, the highest regard mutually between us, and we will solve any problems that exist there because 

it is essential to our success that there be full and complete operation among all of the elements of both departments. 

The second element is that, led by experienced prosecutors, the 

Department focuses its efforts on investigation, extradition, prosecution, and punishment of key cartel leaders. As the Department 

has demonstrated in attacking other major criminal enterprises, 

destroying the leadership and the financial assets of the cartels 

will undermine the entire organizations. 

Third, the Department pursues investigations and prosecutions 

related to the smuggling of guns, cash, and contraband for drugmaking facilities from the United States into Mexico. This is the 

southbound element that the Chairman was discussing. The vioVerDate Nov 24 2008 10:46 Jan 12, 2011 Jkt 050382 PO 00000 Frm 00025 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 P:\DOCS\50382.TXT SAFFAIRS PsN: PAT

ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER
22 

lence and corruption in Mexico are fueled by these resources that 

come from our side of the border. 

Fourth, the Department uses traditional law enforcement approaches to address spillover effects into the United States of cartel 

operations in Mexico, and that, of course, includes spillover violence. It also includes attacking drug violations in the United 

States. 

And fifth, in that regard the Department prosecutes criminals responsible for the smuggling, kidnapping, and violence in Federal 

court. The ultimate goals of these operations are to neutralize the 

cartels and bring the criminals to justice. 

Attorney General Holder and I are committed to taking advantage of all resources in this fight. Last month, the Attorney General announced the arrest of more than 750 individuals on narcotics-related charges under Operation Xcellerator, which Senator 

Burris mentioned. That was a multi-agency, multi-national effort 

that began in May 2007 and targeted the Mexican drug-trafficking 

organization known as the Sinaloa cartel. Through Operation 

Xcellerator, Federal law enforcement agencies—along with law enforcement officials from the governments of Mexico and Canada 

and State and local authorities in the United States—delivered a 

significant blow to the Sinaloa cartel by seizing over $59 million in 

U.S. currency, more than 12,000 kilograms of cocaine, more than 

1,200 pounds of methamphetamine, approximately 1.3 million Ecstasy pills, other illegal drugs, and weapons, aircraft, and vessels. 

An equally sweeping initiative against the Gulf cartel, announced 

in September 2008 called Project Reckoning produced similar dramatic results. 

Now, Operation Xcellerator and Project Reckoning were tremendous successes in the battle and show the strengths of the approach. But there is much more work to do. The cartels remain extremely powerful. Drugs are coming into the United States; guns 

and cash are moving south. So the Attorney General is taking the 

following steps in conjunction with the Administration’s overall initiative. 

DOJ’s Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA), which already 

has the largest U.S. drug enforcement presence in Mexico, with 11 

offices there, is placing 16 new positions in its Southwest Border 

field divisions specifically to attack Mexican trafficking operations 

and violence. 

DEA is also deploying four new mobile enforcement teams with 

32 new personnel to specifically target Mexican methamphetamine 

distribution in organizations along the border and in Atlanta and 

Chicago, which are key distribution nodes. 

DOJ’s Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives is redeploying 100 employees, including 72 agents, under its Project 

Gunrunner. That is a major plus-up effort, really a surge, effectively, of new personnel into the Southwest Border constituting essentially a 67-percent augmentation of the team there. The fiscal 

year 2009 budget and the Recovery Act include critical new funding 

for Project Gunrunner as well, which will be used to hire 37 additional employees to open, staff, and equip new teams. And we will 

be assigning new personnel to consulates in Juarez and Tijuana to 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER
23 

provide direct support to Mexican officials on firearms-trafficking 

issues. 

Our Organized Crime Drug Enforcement Task Forces program is 

expanding to create new Strike Forces along the border. And the 

Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) is creating a Southwest Intelligence Group, which will serve as a clearinghouse of all FBI activities concerning Mexico and increase the focus on these key 

problems—extortion, corruption, kidnapping—that we are seeing 

and integrate that effort with the overall effort of the other law enforcement agencies working the border. We have also increased the 

presence of the Marshals Service in the border area. And our Office 

of Justice Programs is investing $30 million in stimulus dollars to 

support State and local law enforcement to combat narcotics activity along the border, and State and local law enforcement may also 

apply for their share of the $3 billion in Community Oriented Policing Services (COPS) grants and Byrne Justice Assistance Grants 

provided for those programs. 

All of this will be added to our effort to dismantle the cartels, 

and I do want to conclude with a brief mention of the Merida Initiative that Deputy Secretary Steinberg so ably described. 

The Department strongly supports that initiative, which provides 

an unprecedented opportunity for a highly coordinated, effective bilateral response to criminal activity. We are actively involved in 

the planning and implementation of the initiative both interagency 

and with the Mexican government. One of the first programs in 

Mexico is a ministerial level Strategy Session on Arms Trafficking, 

funded by the government of Mexico and the State Department, 

and developed by the Justice Department with DHS and the U.S. 

Embassy. It is going to be held April 1 and 2, 2009, and that is 

the program that the Attorney General and the Secretary will be 

attending on the second day. It will provide important support for 

our joint efforts with Mexico, which have rightly focused on the development of intelligence-based targeting and prosecutor-led multiagency task forces. 

Thank you for your interest in this important issue. I think 

working together we can rise to this challenge, and I would be 

happy to answer your questions. Thank you. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Thanks, Mr. Ogden. I want to start with 

you, and I want to highlight something. I quoted from the previous 

Administration statement of the Justice Department in December, 

and you have repeated it here today, which is that the Mexican 

drug cartels are the No. 1 organized crime threat in the United 

States today. People have focused on the Mexican drug cartels primarily in terms of the actual and greater potential for spillover of 

violence into the United States. But you have said something else 

that is really as broad as the country is, and I just wanted to ask 

you if you want to back that up a bit, that this is quite significant. 

This is the No. 1 organized crime threat in America today. 

Mr. OGDEN. Yes, Chairman Lieberman, it is. And I think to understand the dimension of it, first you have to recognize the centrality of these drug cartels and the distribution of illegal drugs in 

the United States—cocaine, marijuana, and methamphetamine. A 

substantial majority of the drug trafficking in those drugs is controlled by the Mexican drug cartels. As has been described, they 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER
24 

have operations in over 250 jurisdictions in the United States. We 

have estimated that between $17 and $38 billion worth of drug proceeds are controlled annually by the cartels, and they move south. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. That is the Department estimate, between $17 and $38 billion a year? 

Mr. OGDEN. That is correct. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. To say the least, these people have the 

money to buy very sophisticated weaponry and also, of course, to 

compromise law enforcement, if they are so inclined. 

Let me ask you if you could just explain a little bit more for the 

record about what it means to say that the Mexican drug cartels 

are operating in as many as 250 cities or metropolitan areas in the 

United States today. What kind of presence do they have there? 

Mr. OGDEN. Well, they have distribution networks in which they 

have essentially distributors and in certain communities enforcers 

essentially that distribute the drug product, that collect the revenues, and that enforce the payment obligations. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Are these people that they have sent in 

from Mexico, or are these people who are essentially soldiers in 

their organized crime families that are American? 

Mr. OGDEN. My understanding is that it is a combination of the 

two. We have a presence of individuals from Mexico, but there are 

also U.S. persons who are involved in the operations. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Do you have any evidence that you want 

to share with the Committee at this point about the American 

arms of the Mexican drug cartels compromising law enforcement in 

this country? 

Mr. OGDEN. Well, it is certainly the case that a large percentage 

of the weapons in the hands of the drug cartels have a U.S.-based 

origin. And our Mexican counterparts deal with that, and it is a 

major challenge for them. And, obviously, spillover violence is supported by that as well. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Let me ask you a couple of questions 

about that. Some of the numbers here are really quite startling. 

This Project Gunrunner, which is the ATF strategy for disrupting 

the flow of firearms to Mexico from the United States, has referred 

for prosecution—these are numbers from fiscal year 2004 to February 17 of this year—795 cases involved 1,658 defendants, 382 

firearms-trafficking cases of those, including 1,035 defendants. 

In the last 2 years alone, the Mexican government has seized 

more than 33,000 firearms from the drug cartels and estimates 

that hundreds of thousands of firearms enter Mexico from the 

United States each year. 

I have seen the number, and I want to ask you to comment on 

it. We have a category called ‘‘Federal Firearms Licensees.’’ Those 

are people who are licensed to sell guns under the Federal law. I 

have read that ATF estimates that approximately 6,700 of those 

Federal firearms licensees are located along the Southwest Border. 

Are you familiar with that number? And if you are, just try to develop it a little bit. Are they really along the border? Or is it within 

25 or 50 miles from the Mexican border? 

Mr. OGDEN. I cannot speak to the specific number. That number 

sounds familiar. It has been described to me. And I believe that 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER
25 

what we are talking about are basically the Federal districts along 

the border. But I can get the specifics for you, Mr. Chairman. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Why don’t you do that for the record. 

I have heard recent reports that ATF is sending over 200 agents, 

redeploying to the border to work on firearm-trafficking investigations. I want to ask you the same question I asked Secretary 

Napolitano, and I did not make a recommendation on behalf of this 

Committee to the Budget Committee because only DHS is under 

our jurisdiction. We are concerned that the redeployment of the Department of Justice personnel to the border may compromise law 

enforcement in other parts of the country and wonder whether you 

are planning to submit a modification, or the Department is, of the 

fiscal year 2010 budget to beef up your activities, both these and 

prosecutorial activities, the whole range of activities that you describe to combat the Mexican drug cartels as an organized crime 

threat to the United States. 

Mr. OGDEN. Two parts to the response. 

First, we do not believe that we are compromising law enforcement in the short term. We have taken agents we believe that we 

can move. In the hundred that are being moved, it is at the moment a 3 to 6-month deployment for a surge to really try to make 

an impact. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Right. 

Mr. OGDEN. Thirty-seven additional are new that are being hired 

and brought in through stimulus. We will assess the situation and 

see at the end of that short-term period how to respond. 

As to the longer-term picture, we are looking at the fiscal year 

2010 budget and considering this issue quite centrally in our thinking about what the needs are. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. I appreciate that. We would like to work 

with you on that. You have used a word that resonates with Senator McCain and me. We have an inherent tendency to want to 

support ‘‘surges,’’ particularly when we think they protect the security of the United States. 

Mr. OGDEN. That was not tactical on my part. [Laughter.] 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Thank you. Senator McCain. 

Senator MCCAIN. Mr. Ogden, you stated that it was between $16 

and $30 billion in proceeds from drug trafficking. How do they get 

that money back to the suppliers of the drugs and the transporters? I would imagine it goes all the way back to Colombia. How 

does that kind of money move from the consumer in the United 

States of America all the way through the layers of the pipeline 

that comes to the United States of America? 

Mr. OGDEN. Senator McCain, the number is actually—the estimate is slightly larger than that. It is $17 to $38 billion, the estimate that I have seen. And how it moves is in a number of different ways. Bulk cash movements are a big part of this. Literally, 

large quantities of cash are put together and smuggled across the 

border south. There are various ways in which this is accomplished, and we are quite focused on identifying those cash flows 

through intelligence, trying to identify the vehicles that are moving 

it, and trying to interdict them, working together with the DHS. 

But it is a major challenge. 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER
26 

There are other ways. There are these stored value cards that 

are used, and there are likely other ways. But bulk cash is a 

big—— 

Senator MCCAIN. What about wire transfers? 

Mr. OGDEN. There may be some of that, although I think it is 

less typical than these cash transfers, which are harder to trace. 

Senator MCCAIN. Well, whenever, obviously, we have gone after 

crime, we follow the money. And, obviously, it has been true with 

the Mafia, etc. So are we doing enough to go after the money? 

Mr. OGDEN. Senator, I think that is an extremely important 

question at which we are looking very hard. We are adding to each 

of our organized crime strike force teams at the border a financial 

analyst. That is one of the steps that we are taking with this specific initiative, adding financial analysts to each of our strike force 

teams to be looking at those aspects of the fight in a very focused 

way. And as I say, we are working hard with the Treasury Department and with the other agencies on the bulk cash issue. 

Senator MCCAIN. I think you can also see manifestations of this 

money in the lifestyle that some people enjoy: Large mansions on 

both sides of the border, ostentatious displays of wealth. Are there 

ways of tracking that as well? 

Mr. OGDEN. It may be that is an element that people look at, unexplained concentrations of wealth. I do not know specifically. I will 

get back and see what we are doing about that particular aspect 

and report back to you, Senator. 

Senator MCCAIN. Well, I have seen some of it myself, and so I 

would hope that sometime we can at least identify the inhabitants 

and the people that are flying private jets, etc., and try to devise 

ways of going after it in that fashion. 

Are you seeing some of these activities still being run from prisons in Mexico as well? We see drug cartels sometimes run from 

prisons in Mexico. Are you seeing that in the United States as 

well? 

Mr. OGDEN. I am not aware of that specifically, Senator, but, 

again, I will inquire and see if there is information that we can 

share about that. 

Senator MCCAIN. We all know that there are prison gangs that 

have Central American and Mexican connections. 

Mr. OGDEN. That is correct. 

Senator MCCAIN. So it would seem to me that drug trafficking 

might be part of that. But I guess I am trying to—we need to sit 

down and game this situation and try to think outside of the box. 

If it is up to $38 billion, we ought to try attacking this issue from 

some new directions, and some of that may require legislation, as 

it did when we took on corruption as far as the Mafia is concerned. 

Secretary Steinberg, how concerned are you about corruption at 

the highest levels in Mexico? 

Mr. STEINBERG. Senator McCain, it is a very important issue, 

and I think one of the marks of President Calderon’s seriousness 

in this is the efforts he has made against corruption. The Mexican 

government has instituted a program, Operation Clean House, 

which has identified a number of very senior officials associated 

with law enforcement with significant corruption problems. And I 

think the fact that he has taken this on and been willing to take 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER
27 

the risks associated with exposing those individuals and trying to 

bring them to justice reflects the determination that he has. 

As you said, once you have the magnitude of money involved 

here, the potential for corruption is enormous, and it is a true challenge to the State to be able to combat that kind of money which 

is being liberally used by the cartels to try to corrupt government 

officials, law enforcement officials, and the like. 

So we have seen a really vigorous effort on the part of the Mexican government, the Attorney General’s Office, and others to take 

this on, but it is going to be an ongoing challenge. 

Senator MCCAIN. It seems to me, Deputy Attorney General 

Ogden, we have illegal immigration, the coyotes, drug smuggling, 

and kidnapping all mixed up together now. Do you agree? 

Mr. STEINBERG. I do, Senator, and I think that is a critical insight here—these are organized criminal enterprises. They are 

committing crimes in both directions and in our communities and 

in Mexico. That is why it requires a coordinated attack that attacks 

them as organizations in the way that we are going about it. We 

have much to do to improve on it, but we have a strategy, and I 

think we are working hard on it. 

Senator MCCAIN. In the now kidnapping capital of America, the 

same people that are smuggling illegal immigrants are the same 

people that are smuggling the drugs, the same people that are having the illegal immigrants call up their relatives and pay ransom. 

Mr. OGDEN. I think that is likely true. Certainly, the enforcement side that we see with the home invasions and the kidnappings is entirely related to the drug trade in the way that you have 

described. And that is why what we are trying to do and I think 

what we are effectively doing and trying to improve upon is to 

bring together all the law enforcement agencies, Federal—both at 

our Department and the Department of Homeland Security—the 

State and local law enforcement, tribal law enforcement, and working with our courageous counterparts in Mexico, to bring this intelligence together, look at this thing as an overall organization, and 

attack it as an organization. 

Senator MCCAIN. Well, I would like you also to continue to look 

at the use of unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs). There are areas 

along our border that are basically trackless, and it takes a long 

time once someone gets across the border to get into any kind of 

populated area if they are on foot, or even sometimes in vehicles. 

And I really believe the technology—and we have had a number of 

cases of failed technology along the border, as you know. But I 

think it is pretty clear that the UAVs can be very effective, particularly given the state of technology today. If you agree we are in a 

‘‘war’’ on drugs—we use that term too loosely. But the fact is if we 

are in a struggle that poses an existential threat to the country of 

Mexico, then I think we ought to look at the technological aspects 

of warfare to increase our ability to surveill and interdict. So I hope 

you will be looking at that. 

I thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Thank you, Senator McCain. Your last 

line of questioning reminds me that a short time ago, General 

Renuart, who is the head of our Northern Command, which is responsible for the Pentagon’s role in homeland defense, testified 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER
28 

briefly about what his command is beginning to do with regard to 

the spillover of violence from Mexico and to be a support to the 

Mexican military as well. And he might be a good witness to bring 

before us at a future hearing on this subject, because we are really 

beginning to mobilize our resources here, including defense. 

Senator Burris. 

Senator BURRIS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Deputy Secretary Steinberg, in your testimony you were saying 

the coordination between Justice and State was to the point of assisting the Mexican law enforcement and the Mexican judges. 

Could you explain that again, how you are working with the judges 

and the Mexican law enforcement along with Justice and coordinating those efforts? 

Mr. STEINBERG. Certainly, Senator. As I said, one of the most important parts of President Calderon’s effort is to deal with the justice system. He has, along with the Mexican legislature, adopted a 

very ambitious set of legal reforms to really transform the legal 

system in Mexico to be more like our own system of oral advocacy 

and away from the judicial inquiry mode that they had before. So 

there is a very broad-ranging set of reforms that they are now engaged in, as well as efforts to deal with corruption in the judicial 

system, to provide training for prosecutors and judicial personnel, 

to reform the corrections system and corrections facilities, and to 

train corrections officers there. So it is really a systematic effort 

really to get at the whole system from all of its aspects, from prosecutions through corrections, to make the system more responsive, 

more insulated from corruption and the impact of cartels, and to 

prove that the State really is on top of these things. 

Here, although we have a responsibility for coordinating the assistance, we draw on the capabilities and strengths of all the different parts of our government, USAID and Justice in particular, 

on these reform efforts. 

Senator BURRIS. Thank you. And, Deputy Attorney General 

Ogden, I raised a question with Secretary Napolitano about the 

local use of drugs. How are you all coordinating with local law enforcement? Because it is my fervent belief that if there is no demand, there can be no supply. And especially in inner-city Chicago, 

where I come from, the major industry is drug usage and turf battles and turf spraying with AK–47s. 

I know that there is a drug czar and you have these joint efforts, 

but are we looking forward to putting more resources, too, into 

local law enforcement and into treatment to stop the demand of 

these individuals who may find themselves being addicted to drugs 

so that we can cut down on the flow of the dollars going into this 

drug trade, which then is shipped out to Mexico, which is used to 

build these big cartels? It is coming from the $10 and $15 that is 

given right on the street. So if we cut that out, wouldn’t that cut 

the head of the snake off? 

Mr. OGDEN. Senator, that is true. Clearly, the violence and the 

entire industry is fueled largely with dollars that flow south from 

the United States in exactly the fashion that you describe. And the 

effort of the Office of National Drug Control Policy (ONDCP), I believe there is a renewed commitment to addressing the demand 

problem there; certainly the drug courts that Secretary Napolitano 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER
29 

spoke about, which are funded through programs of the Department of Justice’s Office of Justice Programs to increase those important elements in the fight; and then, as you say, coordination 

with State and local law enforcement. 

The new stimulus package has $3 billion worth of Byrne Justice 

Assistance Grants and grants under the COPS program to help 

and support State and local law enforcement, and we plan to work 

very closely together with them on these initiatives. 

In addition, State and local law enforcement, as I mentioned, are 

integrated into the enforcement, intelligence sharing, and prosecution teams that I was discussing earlier. 

Senator BURRIS. Is anyone dealing with the educational piece of 

it, the treatment piece to treat those individuals who are addicted 

to drugs so that we can cut down on the demand? I know that does 

not fall in the Justice bailiwick. It is probably in some other department. But in this coordinated effort that we are talking about 

here, Mr. Chairman, I do not know whether or not we have funds 

that we can some kind of way find where we can get down to that 

ultimate user that is putting that $5, $10, $15, and $20 that really 

ends up going back to Mexico in these big bundles that fuel these 

cartels. And we must get at the source of it, and that is in my community and all the small towns across America. These drugs have 

inundated our youth. They are in small communities where law enforcement do not have the resources to go after them. And they end 

up eventually in the criminal justice system or in the health care 

system in a way that even brings a whole drain on our economy. 

We must get at the root cause, and that is, the user of the drugs, 

and education and treatment are the sources that I keep saying 

that we must do. 

Can you comment on that, gentlemen? Do you agree with me? 

Mr. OGDEN. We certainly agree with you that education and 

treatment are critically important. I think our drug courts try to 

incorporate treatment. But there is a lot that needs to be done. 

Mr. STEINBERG. If I could just add, Senator, one of the aspects 

of our program that does not get as much attention is we are also 

working on demand reduction in Mexico as well. That is another 

piece of this. Just as we need to deal with the demand side here, 

we need to help Mexico deal with its demand side because they 

have their own drug problem which also feeds the cartels. 

Senator BURRIS. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Thank 

you. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Thanks, Senator Burris. 

Senator Pryor, we now have three former State Attorneys General. 

Senator PRYOR. That is right, three against one. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. We are a tight group. [Laughter.] 

Not to suggest that you are a law breaker, Senator Tester. 

Senator TESTER. Just here to offer a level of common sense, Mr. 

Chairman. [Laughter.] 

Senator PRYOR. I love that. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. As usual, he gets to that. 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER
30 

OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR PRYOR 

Senator PRYOR. Mr. Ogden, let me start with you, if I may. In 

December, the Department of Justice Drug Intelligence Center released a report that identified 230 cities in the United States, three 

of those being in Arkansas, with a Mexican drug-trafficking organization or presence in the city. How is the Federal Government 

reaching out to those cities and those States and local law enforcement, governors, fusion centers, whatever the case may be? How 

are you reaching out in trying to work with different levels of government to try to make that situation better? 

Mr. OGDEN. It is critically important, Senator, exactly as you say, 

to have both coordination and mutual support with State and local 

law enforcement in dealing with this problem. These are enormous 

organizations that their tentacles reach into our communities 

across the country. And so through our intelligence-sharing facilities that are essentially chaired by the Drug Enforcement Administration, they bring in all Federal law enforcement, State and local 

law enforcement, and to a significant degree, our foreign counterparts, to share that information. The information is shared with 

our State and local counterparts and partners. There is an effort 

at the prosecutorial level to coordinate enforcement of drug offenses, and so both with the DEA’s outreach to individual communities that have particular problems with the mobile enforcement 

teams, with our Organized Crime Drug Enforcement Task Force 

(OCDETF) that incorporates State and local law enforcement, and 

with the coordination as I described at the DEA intelligence-sharing facilities, there is really a concerted effort to work together 

with State and local authorities on this problem. 

Senator PRYOR. And you have been talking mostly about information sharing, but are you also targeting tools and resources to 

those cities and those areas? 

Mr. OGDEN. We are, and thank you for reminding me to address that part of it. There are $30 million in the stimulus that are specifically going to the border State and local law enforcement to support border issues. Beyond that, there are $3 billion of grants 

under the Byrne Justice Assistance program and the COPS program, which are available for State and local law enforcement to 

apply for support from the Justice Department and to work with 

us on developing the most effective programs for law enforcement 

generally, but obviously this problem is a central and important 

one that would receive priority. 

Senator PRYOR. And no portion of those money pots that you are 

talking about are designated specifically for this, but you are saying they are available generally, and I guess they are somehow 

prioritized within DOJ? 

Mr. OGDEN. Well, certainly there is an effort to have those programs address the urgent law enforcement needs that exist across 

the country, and so those monies are to provide that kind of support, and then we have the coordination operations that I was describing on the operational side to make sure people are working 

together. 

Senator PRYOR. With the report that came out in December, it 

said 230 cities in the United States. Is that number about the same 

today? 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER
31 

Mr. OGDEN. I believe so. That is, I think, the most current intelligence that we have on that question. 

Senator PRYOR. And when it says a Mexican drug-trafficking organization presence in a city, does that mean it is usually done 

with Mexican nationals? 

Mr. OGDEN. I will get back with whatever detail that we can provide more specifically. But it is, I think, a combination of Mexican 

nationals and U.S. persons who are involved in that. 

Senator PRYOR. Let me ask, if I may, Mr. Steinberg, a question 

about—is it pronounced the Merida Initiative? 

Mr. STEINBERG. Merida, sir. 

Senator PRYOR. Merida. Could you tell the Committee what that 

is and how that is going? 

Mr. STEINBERG. Yes, sir. The Merida Initiative was started last 

year. It was a multi-year initiative that began with funding in the 

fiscal year 2008 appropriations bill. We have now had—between 

the fiscal year 2008 appropriations of about $400 million and now 

$300 million in the omnibus, it is a comprehensive effort that involves a number of Federal agencies as well as our counterparts in 

Mexico to address a full range of the issues involved in helping 

Mexico strengthen its efforts against the cartels and against narcotics and violence. It focuses on efforts like providing the Mexican 

government with non-intrusive inspection equipment so that it can 

detect flows of firearms and funds going south. It provides support 

for judicial reform, support for corrections reform, support for 

training officials, support for additional mobility and intelligence 

and information sharing among law enforcement officials at the 

Federal and local level in Mexico and with their counterparts. 

So it is really quite a comprehensive effort dealing with the full 

range of issues that allows the Mexican government to take on this 

very strong challenge, and it will require a multi-year effort working together and involving a broad range of agencies in the United 

States, the State Department, Justice Department, DHS, Treasury, 

USAID, and others working with their Mexican counterparts to address this problem. 

Senator PRYOR. Can you tell yet if it is going to be successful or 

if it is headed in the right direction? 

Mr. STEINBERG. We are in the early days. As I say, the first 

tranche of funding just became available at the end of last year. 

We have already begun to implement a number of programs, particularly with a focus on some of the training programs that Deputy Attorney General Ogden and I have mentioned, but also in getting this equipment to them that they need, this non-intrusive inspection equipment, which is a very high early priority, as well as 

some of these training programs. 

In addition, there are things that are sort of the big-ticket items. 

It is increasing our ability to exchange information and ideas on 

tactics and operations, and a very high priority is getting them the 

mobility they need to be able to respond quickly when we have information and to support their own efforts as they try to strengthen particularly the Federal police as a key element of their effort 

against the cartels. 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER
32 

Senator PRYOR. And we did this last year. Is it your impression 

that this Administration will continue to prioritize this and continue to seek this type of funding and continue the program? 

Mr. STEINBERG. Senator, as you know, we have not yet finalized 

the 2010 budget yet, but we see this as a multi-year commitment, 

and I am confident that, without discussing specific amounts yet, 

this is a priority we intend to continue. 

Senator PRYOR. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Thanks very much, Senator Pryor, for 

your questions. 

Next we go to Christopher Carper’s father, Senator Tom Carper. 

We are honored to have both the Senator and his offspring here 

this morning. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR CARPER 

Senator CARPER. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We will 

let the audience look at the folks behind me and figure out which 

one of them might be my son, Christopher. 

Thanks very much. Our thanks to each of you for being with us 

today. I apologize for being late. One of the responsibilities of this 

Committee is not just to be concerned about the security of our borders and the security of our homeland, but also a responsibility is 

to make sure that we count every 10 years how many people live 

in this country in the census, and that starts in about a year. And 

we had a big session today with a lot of Latino organizations that 

are anxious to make sure we count the folks that are here, hopefully legal, but some may be some who are not. So I apologize for 

being delayed and having missed your testimony and that of my 

former governor colleague, Janet Napolitano. But we really appreciate your presence and appreciate your work. 

I caught just a little bit of Senator Burris’ comments when I was 

coming in and out, and I asked my staff about this. Is this the 

right picture? Do I have this right? In this country, we consume 

enormous amounts of illegal drugs, and a lot of those come out of 

Mexico, and as a country, we pay a lot of money for those illegal 

drugs, and a lot of that money ends up down in Mexico, and the 

folks down in Mexico use a portion of that money to come back into 

the United States and buy weapons from us, and they send people 

who do not have a criminal record into gun stores to buy a number 

of weapons legally. They send people into gun shows where they 

can buy weapons legally. And they can buy assault weapons legally 

now because the ban on that has dropped. 

I am a guy who believes in the right to bear arms, but I also 

have some concerns about the way this seems to be working to me. 

We took the train down here this morning from Delaware, and I 

read in the local paper this initiative that has just been launched 

by the Administration. I said it sounds good. I understand that 

Governor Napolitano discussed it today. But if the two of you could 

just take a couple of minutes and talk to us about how this new 

initiative reduces some of the demand for illegal drugs in our country. And, second, how this initiative will reduce the ability of folks 

to come into this country and to buy weapons here that will go 

back and be used as a part of the violence, not just on the border 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER
33 

but into this country and certainly well into Mexico. If you all could 

take a shot at that, I would be grateful. 

Mr. OGDEN. Certainly, Senator. Well, I think the basic picture 

that you paint of large criminal organizations which are selling 

drugs in the United States for large amounts of money, buying 

weapons in the United States, taking the money and the weapons 

back to Mexico and using them to further the criminal enterprise—— 

Senator CARPER. I mean, we are all about a strong economy, and 

we are trying to stimulate our economy and pass stimulus bills and 

so forth. It seems like this part of the economy is going too well, 

and we need to figure out how to deflate this bubble. 

Mr. OGDEN. Certainly, it is a very insidious economy, and it is 

one that has these terrible ramifications for our border communities and for our partners and friends in Mexico. And it is something that we are very serious about attacking. 

We think that it is critically important to attack these organized 

criminal enterprises as organizations and to take them on through 

prosecutor-led task forces, intelligence sharing among the relevant 

law enforcement agencies working with State and local governments, and most important, partnering with the Mexican government, which is so courageously taking on this problem on their side 

of the border. And what we are trying to do with these new resources is to support that centrally driven prosecutor-led strategy 

to bring these people to justice and dismantle these organizations. 

On the demand side, we have talked today, I think that it is a 

very important thing to do. We need to address the distribution 

here. We need to do everything we can to address addiction and the 

problems that bring that about. Fundamentally, this problem of the 

cartels we need to address the way we took on the Mafia in the 

1980s and 1990s and try to take them down that way. 

Senator CARPER. All right. 

Mr. STEINBERG. If I could just add, Senator, obviously this is a 

priority for the Mexican government. It is of deep concern to them 

that it is feeling the violence on the other side of the border. And 

we are talking not just about small firearms, but in many cases actually things that are approaching heavy weaponry. So this is not 

just a question, although we are concerned about individual weapons, but we are starting to see the kinds of weapons that are really 

used in military warfare. 

So this is a very serious problem, and it is contributing to this 

remarkable violence on the Mexican side. 

Senator CARPER. But the folks that are using those weapons, Mr. 

Steinberg, where are they buying those, the heavier weapons? 

Mr. STEINBERG. I think there are a variety of sources, and one 

of the things that we are working with the Justice Department is 

to understand better where they are including efforts not only to 

detect them going across the border through non-intrusive inspection equipment, but also through the eTrace program, which tries 

to identify the sources of them and look back to the sources, and 

then working with Treasury and Justice to identify where they 

may be coming from. 

Senator CARPER. All right. I understand that a fair amount of 

this hearing today has focused on the Southern Border, and I want 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER
34 

to take just a minute—I do not know if anyone has discussed the 

Northern Border with you or not. The Northern Border is pretty 

big, and it is worth a little bit of attention. 

I would ask—and this is probably more for Deputy Secretary 

Steinberg. But how long do you think it will take to fully implement the State Department’s Merida Initiative? And do you feel 

the money that the Congress appropriated was enough to provide 

concrete improvements to the Mexican government’s counter-narcotic and anti-cartel efforts? 

Mr. STEINBERG. Well, Senator, this is a multi-year effort, and we 

are off to a good start. As I indicated, the Congress has now provided about $700 million to Mexico, and one thing that we have not 

talked as much about this morning, but I just do want to emphasize, is that some of the funding has gone to Central America and 

to Haiti and the Dominican Republic because we have to see this 

in a regional context. And it is very important and the Mexican 

government is very concerned as well about its Southern Border, 

so seeing this regional effort is quite important. 

That is a significant start on a program that will take several 

years, and clearly, again, without specifying what we will be looking for in the 2010 budget precisely, we are going to need continued 

funding. This is going to be a multi-year effort. 

The good news is we really now have the framework underway. 

We have the letters of agreement with the government of Mexico. 

We have the interagency understandings mostly in place at this 

point that allow us to be effective. I think we are going to see an 

acceleration of the program as we go forward. So sustaining that 

going forward is going to be quite important, and obviously we will 

be talking to you about that as the 2010 budget comes up. 

Senator CARPER. Good. Now we will go back to the Northern Border. The kind of concerns that we have seen, that we see every day 

along the border of Mexico are riveting, and they demand our attention. When you look at the Northern Border, can you all describe for us any current or future efforts to bolster security along 

the Canadian border? Have you seen suspicious illegal immigration 

activities or trends that our intelligence folks or law enforcement 

people feel can pose a national security risk? 

Mr. STEINBERG. Senator, we work very closely with our Canadian 

counterparts as well. It is a very strong relationship that we have 

with the security officials, with the RCMP in Canada, to have a 

joint effort and to coordinate our effort there—— 

Senator CARPER. RCMP stands for the Royal Canadian Mounted 

Police? 

Mr. STEINBERG. The Royal Canadian Mounted Police, yes, sir. 

Senator CARPER. Yes. 

Mr. STEINBERG. Still there, and doing a very fine job. 

Senator CARPER. After all these years. 

Mr. STEINBERG. But the President was just in Canada visiting 

with his counterparts, and we had a chance to talk about this. The 

border there is critically important to our economic well-being, the 

ability to both, on the one hand, make sure that people, commerce, 

and goods can move expeditiously to have the kind of just-in-time 

integrated economy that is so critical to our well-being, and we depend so closely on working with Canada on those things, but at the 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER
35 

same time to deal with security and to see this as a shared space 

so that it is not just the border as how we deal with security problems, which not just involve illegal immigration but, obviously, concerns about potential terrorist threats and the like. And that is 

something that we have seen increased collaboration and cooperation between our two countries. We need to continue to build the 

infrastructure around the Northern Border as well to address these 

concerns. 

Senator CARPER. All right. Thanks very much. 

Mr. Chairman, thanks very much. Timely hearing. This is really 

timely. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Thanks, Senator Carper. Thanks for 

being here. It has been a very productive hearing so far. 

Senator Tester, thank you. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR TESTER 

Senator TESTER. Yes, thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I apologize 

for not being in on the first panel, and I apologize for not hearing 

your testimony. But, nonetheless, I think this is a very important 

hearing, and I want to thank you, Mr. Ogden and Mr. Steinberg, 

for being here today. 

I come from a border State, as Senator Carper talked about. It 

is a Northern Border State. We have different issues, as you pointed out, Mr. Steinberg, but it certainly has its challenges, and I look 

forward to working with you in the future on meeting those challenges. But whether it is the Northern Border or the Southern Border, porous borders mean that the potential for drugs flowing into 

communities all over the country is real, and it is everybody’s problem. 

We do need, as Senator Burris pointed out when I first came in, 

to acknowledge that there is a clear demand problem here in the 

United States. I think that is critically important that we get a 

handle on that. And I want to be clear about one other thing. Some 

have used this latest outbreak in Mexico to argue for tighter gun 

control restrictions in the United States. I do not agree that is the 

right answer either. I think that the right answer is really cooperation, which I am hearing at all levels of government, and smarter 

intelligence, more eyes and ears on the border, getting tougher on 

criminals that are smuggling the weapons and drugs, and as I said 

earlier, demand here at home. 

One other thing that I would throw in, and that is, trade policies 

at work in Mexico as well as here in this country. I think anytime 

you get a situation where people are struggling to make a living, 

they are willing to almost do anything to feed their family. 

Mr. Ogden, I want to make sure that you have the resources to 

address gun crimes, and rather than ask for new gun laws, I am 

glad to see Project Gunrunner is being discussed; I am glad to see 

that you are working to find folks that smuggle weapons. I think 

that is critically important. 

I am a firm believer in getting the biggest value for the buck that 

we spend when it comes to taxpayer dollars, but I think there are 

a lot of folks in my State that think that is money well spent to 

go get the bad guys. 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER
36 

Mr. OGDEN. Thank you, Senator. We certainly agree with aggressive enforcement of the gun laws that are on the books, getting at 

this smuggling through the eTrace system, which is the ATF system for identifying a gun that has been used illegally, a gun that 

is in Mexico that is seized, how it was sold, and tracking down that 

process to try to find the gun smugglers, the gun runners, is critically important. 

Senator TESTER. I appreciate that. I appreciate that a lot for a 

lot of different reasons. 

I think it was you, Mr. Ogden, who said that there is $30 million 

in the jobs recovery, stimulus bill, whatever you want to call it, 

that go directly to the border. 

Mr. OGDEN. Senator, there are $30 million in the stimulus for 

the Office of Justice programs to provide grants to State and local 

law enforcement directly connected with the border and the critical 

communities that are suffering from drug—— 

Senator TESTER. Is that the Southern Border only, or is that both 

borders? 

Mr. OGDEN. It is focused on the Southern Border and the communities that are directly affected by that problem. The larger 

package in the stimulus, there are $3 billion worth of grants under 

Byrne Justice Assistance Grants and COPS that are available nationwide. 

Senator TESTER. Do you know how much of that is going to the 

Northern Border? I know this is the Southern Border hearing, 

but—— 

Mr. OGDEN. I think that essentially remains to be seen. We are 

open for business to receive applications, and I think we will try 

to process them according to appropriate criteria. 

Senator TESTER. And the $30 million you talked about is used to 

develop relationships with local entities on the border. 

Mr. OGDEN. To support them and support our relationship, that 

is right. 

Senator TESTER. And how is that going? Is that money getting 

out? When do you anticipate that money to get out? When do you 

anticipate those relationships to be developed so you can send that 

money out? 

Mr. OGDEN. Well, the relationships exist, and we are working 

hard on them every day. We work side by side with State and local 

law enforcement in this battle. The money is—as you can appreciate, there are processes. People need to apply. We are ready to 

receive those applications and to move that money out as soon as 

possible. A precise timeline I think depends on the applications and 

how fast we can move them. 

Senator TESTER. I would just say from my perspective, I appreciate those efforts, working with local law enforcement, working 

with, in the Northern Border’s case—and I am much more familiar 

with that than the Southern Border—people who own land, who 

farm and ranch along that border. I think you can get a lot of bang 

for the buck, and I think that those relationships really need to be 

developed if we are going to get a firm grip on tightening up the 

border. 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER
37 

I speak mainly from a Northern Border perspective, but if it applies to the Southern Border, then so be it and so do it. And so I 

thank you for those efforts. 

You had mentioned that you feel it is important to attack the 

cartels, treat them as an organization, attack the organization. 

Part of being able to do that is communication between not only 

those local entities that are on the American side of the border 

with Homeland Security, but also the Mexican side of things. And 

I did not hear your statement, and you may have addressed this 

already. But what kind of communication do you have—because 

timeliness is critically important here. What kind of communication 

do you have with local agencies, local law enforcement, and Mexican law enforcement at all levels? 

Mr. OGDEN. It is a critically important question, and there is no 

way to understand this problem and how we are going to solve it 

without understanding what you have just said, which is that we 

need to have the most productive partnership with our Mexican 

counterparts that we possibly can have. And we have a very strong 

and good relationship. The Merida Initiative, in which we are side 

by side, our prosecutorial and investigative experts working with 

theirs to build infrastructure, to build bridges, and to make ourselves more coordinated, is a critical piece of this, the work that the 

State Department, the Attorney General, and Secretary Napolitano 

are doing, to build those bridges. 

We are sharing information to a very significant degree. We are 

working to build vetted units within the Mexican law enforcement 

structure of agents who have been vetted by the DEA and by the 

United States as being people who are not corrupt and who can be 

trusted with our intelligence. And all of this effort which is underway, has been underway, which we are trying to accelerate. As the 

Deputy Secretary said, it is critically important to winning this 

fight. 

Senator TESTER. If there is one area that needs to be addressed— 

I will not call it the ‘‘weakness,’’ but if there is one area that you 

would say we really need to focus on to really be able to secure the 

border, stop the gun running, stop illegal drugs coming the other 

direction, what would it be? 

Mr. OGDEN. I think the critical thing is to have the strengthening of our working relationship with the Mexican government, 

strengthening the institutions on both sides, and the coordination 

on both sides. 

Senator TESTER. Thank you very much, and I appreciate you 

both being here. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Thanks, Senator Tester. Thanks for those 

questions. Senator Akaka, welcome. Thanks for being here. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR AKAKA 

Senator AKAKA. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Good to 

be here. Let me apologize for being late to this hearing, but I was 

conducting another hearing before this. 

I am very interested in what is happening there on the Southern 

Border, as well as the Northern Border, and would like to direct 

this question to Deputy Secretary Steinberg, and bring in the 

Merida Initiative, which is an assistance package to Mexico and 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER
38 

Central America to combat drug trafficking and organized crime 

with an objective to maximize the effectiveness of efforts against 

drug, human, and weapons trafficking. 

The Merida Initiative provides also funding to support a variety 

of programs in Mexico. The large amount of funding and broad 

scope of the initiative makes oversight particularly challenging. I 

would like you to address how you are monitoring progress on this. 

What performance metrics do you have in place to measure the 

progress of the Merida Initiative in meetings its goals? 

Mr. STEINBERG. Well, thank you, Senator. I think you have 

raised a very important point because, obviously, the test of the 

program in the long term is going to be how effectiveness we are 

in partnership with Mexico in helping the government of Mexico to 

get control of its streets to deal with this very serious organized 

threat to the very public security of its own citizens. And so we 

have a set of short-term measures that we are going to be focusing 

on as we go forward, looking at issues like increased arrests of 

drug traffickers and gang members, the dismantling of organized 

crime syndicates, increased interdiction of illegal drugs and weapons, improved effectiveness of the national judicial systems, reduction of criminal case backlogs, reduction in the average length of 

trials, increased public confidence in the courts, improved law enforcement cooperation both between us and the Mexicans and between the Federal level in Mexico and the local authorities, and the 

ability to deal with the cross-border issues not just between the 

United States and Mexico, but also into Central America. 

So there are a number of things that we are going to be working 

on there over the long term to see a reduction in violence, to see 

a reduction in these flows of the drugs north and the money and 

the arms to the south. These are early days, but I think we have 

already seen the very fact of this increased violence to some extent 

is a reflection of the determination on the part of the Mexican government to take this on. And the cartels are fighting back. They 

are seeing their existing routes be disrupted. They are fighting over 

territory. 

So we are seeing in some respects a kind of intensity of fighting 

reflecting the determination of both sides, the United States and 

Mexico, to take this one. But we are going to need to stay at this 

for a while. The cartels are well organized and well funded. They 

are fighting for their lives, and the Mexican government is going 

to be doing what it needs to get that done. 

So we will have to stay on top of this. Oversight is very important. These are significant resources. We have mechanisms in 

place. These are largely situations where we are not transferring 

funds to Mexico so much as providing technical assistance, training, and equipment that we are working on together so we have a 

good ability to make sure that it is being used for the purposes that 

Congress intended. 

Senator AKAKA. You mentioned training. In particular and specifically, how is the training going? I can recall that training was 

to begin April 2008, and since then—then my question would be: 

How is the training program? And what kind of metrics are you 

using to check on that? 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER
39 

Mr. STEINBERG. Well, Senator, the initial appropriation for the 

Merida Initiative was enacted in June of last year, so we have been 

operating on funding that has just become available starting last 

summer, and we have been working with Committee staff here up 

on the Hill in the initial days to agree on a plan going forward. We 

had to reach some letters of agreement with the Mexican government on how these programs should go forward. 

So the reality is that the programs have actually begun in the 

last 4 or 5 months, and we are beginning to see these programs 

take place—training of corrections staff, working with judicial officials, and as I said, a significant effort focused on the procurement 

of equipment, particularly non-intrusive detection equipment, 

which is a major part of the actual overall amount of spending. 

But these efforts now I think are accelerating. We have the 

framework in place, and we need to keep at it. 

Senator AKAKA. Thank you. 

Deputy Attorney General Ogden, there are a number of initiatives addressing the violence associated with the drug cartels near 

the Southwest Border. In order to meet these initiatives, your Department must coordinate—and my question is really on your coordination—with DHS, the State Department, and the State and 

local governments as well. 

How are you ensuring that your Department’s counternarcotics 

efforts are complementing rather than duplicating efforts of other 

agencies involved? 

Mr. OGDEN. Thank you, Senator. I think you put your finger on 

a critically important aspect of the response here, which is we do 

need to be extremely well coordinated. 

The Drug Enforcement Administration was established to be the 

drug enforcement entity, the central drug enforcement entity for 

the United States, and DEA has established intelligence centers, 

the Special Operations Division (SOD) center, and the El Paso Intelligence Center (EPIC), which bring in all of the critical agencies 

to share intelligence and to share information. That is a critical aspect of the coordination of this effort, that effort that the DEA does, 

and then the DEA works to make sure we are de-conflicted, that 

we do not have conflicts among agencies pursuing these cases, and 

work together with the prosecutors in their own task forces, of 

which DEA and the other agencies are a part, to put together these 

major initiatives that are designed to take down the cartels, such 

as Xcellerator, such as the one against the Gulf cartel. 

So we are pursuing coordination through those mechanisms and, 

I think, continuing to look for ways to improve our coordination. 

Senator AKAKA. Yes. And as was pointed out, you have been 

working with groups. Can you tell me how many different groups 

there are that you are working with on this problem? 

Mr. OGDEN. The groups that we are working with on our side of 

the problem you mean? 

Senator AKAKA. To deal with this problem. 

Mr. OGDEN. Well, certainly within—well, it is a large number. I 

am not sure I could quantify it. In the Justice Department, there 

is the DEA, the ATF, the FBI is an important part of this, the Marshals Service, and our Federal prosecutors in the Criminal Division 

and in the U.S. Attorneys’ Offices. At DHS, there is ICE, the BorVerDate Nov 24 2008 10:46 Jan 12, 2011 Jkt 050382 PO 00000 Frm 00043 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 P:\DOCS\50382.TXT SAFFAIRS PsN: PAT

ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER
40 

der Patrol components, and the rest of the critical aspects of DHS 

working on this. Obviously, our partners at the State Department 

in working with the Mexican authorities are critical. The Treasury 

Department with respect to the aspects of this that affect the cash 

flows is another critical partner. State and local law enforcement, 

tribal law enforcement, and then, far from least, our Mexican colleagues and counterparts are so bravely taking this battle to the 

cartels in their own backyard. That relationship is critical. And I 

have probably left out someone who will be annoyed with me, but 

it is a large group that we are bringing together. 

Senator AKAKA. Yes, well, thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. 

My time has expired. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Thanks very much, Senator Akaka. 

I just have one more question or two for you, Mr. Steinberg, 

about the Merida Initiative. Incidentally, I appreciate what you 

said a short while ago about the relationship between the United 

States and Mexico. It is a longstanding relationship. It has been 

through difficult times. This seems to be one of the better times. 

We always ought to have a pro-American Government in Mexico 

and a pro-Mexican government in America. That does not always 

happen. We have it now, and in regard to this specific crisis, we 

have an extraordinarily courageous Administration in Mexico City 

that we want to work with and we are working with. So I appreciate the way you said that, as a matter of our foreign policy, if you 

will, in addition to domestic law enforcement. 

I want to ask you just this question about the Merida Initiative. 

First, I understand that we are in the budget process so you cannot 

tell us how much you are going to ask for, for Merida, but I appreciate that you made a commitment on behalf of the Department to 

continue this as a multi-year program. You tell me if you are willing to answer this question. I assume that we will put at least as 

much into the program as is going in on an annual basis now. Is 

that fair to conclude? 

Mr. STEINBERG. Senator, again, without getting into specifics, 

when the program was initially envisioned, we were talking about 

a 3-year, $1.4 billion program. Now, obviously, we want to look at 

it in terms of individual year allocations, how we can best use the 

money. We do not want to get more money than the system can 

appropriate. So I cannot give an absolute number, but I do think 

the fact that it is a multi-year thing and some sense of the scale 

that was initially envisioned gives you some sense about the kind 

of role that we saw going forward. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. In the first 2 years, fiscal year 2008 and 

2009, Congress actually appropriated less money than was requested. There was $950 million requested and $700 million—still 

a considerable amount, of course—was appropriated. One of the 

reasons given here in Congress for the reduction in funding was a 

concern about the slowness with which the Merida money had been 

disbursed to date. This is not a problem of your creation, that you 

found this, but I gather that a relatively small fraction of the funding appropriated in fiscal year 2008, as Senator Akaka indicated, 

for Mexican law enforcement agencies has actually been expended 

to date—not obligated but actually expended. 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER
41 

So I wanted to ask you if you agree with that observation that 

this is moving slowly, and if so, why do you think it is and what 

are you doing with the Secretary to expedite the disbursement of 

the remaining fiscal year 2008 Merida funding. 

Mr. STEINBERG. Well, Senator, I think everyone always wants 

the money to get out the door as fast as possible, and I think we 

could talk about the details about what happened last year. I think 

there was a period of time that it was important for the Department and Congress and the key members of your staffs to have a 

joint understanding about what we are going to do, because it is 

a long-term program, and getting it off on the right footing was important. So there was a period of time associated with that, and 

once we had an agreement here in the United States about how to 

spend the money, we needed to work that with the Mexicans. 

By the end of calendar 2008, I would say we had the mechanisms 

in place, and now we are ready—fortunately, coinciding with the 

beginning of this Administration—to really begin to be aggressive 

about this. And as I said, one of the things that we are going to 

see, although a relatively small amount of money has been obligated at this point, a significant amount of funding, particularly for 

this non-intrusive detection equipment, is really ready to go. 

Also, a very important additional part that I hope we will be 

moving very quickly is the helicopters for the Mexican military. 

Congress was good enough to waive the informal notification requirements under the Foreign Military Financing (FMF) program. 

The formal notification expires on April 13, which means we will 

be in a position after April 13 to finally negotiate those contracts 

for the helicopters, which are critically important to provide the 

mobility and the speed of responsiveness. 

So as we get some of these larger programs out the door, we will 

see that in terms of the percentage of funds allocated, that will go 

up very dramatically, and as I say, we have now the letters of 

agreement in place with the government of Mexico that facilitate 

the expenditure of the funds that are handled under our international narcotics law enforcement accounts. 

And so I think that the pipeline is well established, the relationships are well established, both within the United States and between the United States and Mexico, and we can see an acceleration of the implementation of the program. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. That is very encouraging, and we will obviously keep in touch with you on that. 

Although the Merida funding is appropriated to the Department 

of State foreign assistance accounts, obviously the Department of 

Homeland Security and the Department of Justice are important 

partners with you. This is in the form of open group family therapy. We have heard grumbling—not, of course, from Mr. Ogden— 

that folks at DHS and DOJ feel that they have—and, again, this 

maybe goes more back to the previous Administration—but they 

have not been fully involved in the budget priority formulation 

process. And I wanted to ask you if you intend to include them 

early on as best you can in that process? 

Mr. STEINBERG. Absolutely, Senator. I think it is critically important, as you have heard today both from Secretary Napolitano and 

my colleague here. This is a multi-agency effort, and many of the 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER
42 

expertise and capacities obviously lie outside the State Department. So we cannot develop and implement these programs without the work of these other agencies. And while we provide a convening framework, the Secretary chairs the high-level group that 

involves both the agencies in the United States and our counterparts in Mexico, that we need to work very effectively. And I have 

been encouraged in the short time we have all been together—particularly my colleague who has been in office just for a very short 

period of time—of the very collaborative spirit that we all approach 

this with. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Well, thanks very much. I thank both of 

you for your testimony. I thank you for what you are doing every 

day on this challenge to our security and to our neighbor’s security. 

My impression from this morning is that our government is really mobilized now on this, but it is going to be a longer-term fight, 

and we want to help you in every way we can in it. 

As a formal matter, we are going to keep the record of the hearing open for 15 days, if you or Secretary Napolitano want to add 

to your testimony. There may be some Members of the Committee 

who were not here, or some who were, who want to submit additional questions, which we will ask you to fill out. But thank you 

very much for being here. Thank you for what you are doing. 

The hearing is adjourned. 

[Whereupon, at 11:50 a.m., the Committee was adjourned.] 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER
(43) 

SOUTHERN BORDER VIOLENCE: STATE AND 

LOCAL PERSPECTIVES 

MONDAY, APRIL 20, 2009 

U.S. SENATE, COMMITTEE ON HOMELAND SECURITY

AND GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS, Phoenix, AZ 

The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 9 a.m., in the Phoenix 

City Council Chambers, 200 West Jefferson Street, Hon. Joseph I. 

Lieberman, Chairman of the Committee, presiding. 

Present: Senators Lieberman, McCain, and Kyl. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF CHAIRMAN LIEBERMAN 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. I will focus this morning on the very real 

consequences for communities along the Mexican border associated 

with activities of the Mexican drug cartels and their nightmarish 

violence. 

We are going to consider the spillovers of this criminal behavior 

into the United States, the crime that has already occurred, and we 

are going to ask if we are prepared to deal with more if it does 

occur and what we in the Federal Government can do to help working with State and local officials. 

I want to thank my friends your Senators from Arizona, John 

McCain and Jon Kyl for focusing the attention of this Homeland 

Security Committee of ours on the threat of the Mexican drug wars 

to homeland security here in the United States. Our Nation and 

the State of Arizona are fortunate to have these two great public 

servants fighting for you and our country in Washington. I am 

proud to have Senator McCain as a Member of this Committee and 

also proud to have Senator Kyl joining us today as a special Member of the Committee. 

I also want to thank Governor Jan Brewer, Attorney General 

Goddard, Mayor Gordon, and other officials from across the State 

who are going to testify here this morning. I know how hard you 

have all been working to keep your citizens safe and your State 

prosperous. We come today to listen, to hear your ideas about how 

the Federal Government can help you to stop the lawless behavior 

that the Mexican drug cartels are causing. 

As the citizens of Arizona know only too well, drug-related violence has claimed over 7,000 lives in Mexico since the beginning of 

last year. That is a stunning number. The cartels have gone to war 

with each other and the Mexican government. This conflict obviously escalated with Mexican President Felipe Calderon’s heroic decision to take on the cartel 2 years ago and at the same time to 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER
44 

root out corruption within his own government. Now increased enforcement efforts by the Department of Justice (DOJ) and the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) at the border are making it 

more difficult for the cartels to smuggle drugs into the United 

States. 

It seems to me that our goal should be to squeeze the cartels 

from both sides of the border, and as we began to do this they have 

reacted as the lawless thugs that they are. Many of the killings 

that I have described in Mexico bear the characteristics frankly 

that we typically associate with the threat that this Committee has 

been most focused on and that is the threat of Islamist terrorism: 

Beheadings, gunfights on crowded city streets, the targeted intimidation and assassination of government officials, and, as Phoenix 

is painfully aware, kidnappings and ransom demands. These are 

true atrocities. 

What is also true is that the majority of victims are associated 

with the Mexican cartels, but we also know that innocent civilians 

have gotten caught literally and figuratively in various aspects of 

the crossfire, that the intensity of the violence has spread across 

the border and created an atmosphere of fear in border communities, and that the cartels have extended their deadly reach far 

away from the border into the United States. 

Phoenix has endured, as I have said, this extraordinary wave of 

kidnappings, but we have also seen in border communities—and I 

want to hear from the local officials in more detail about this—an 

increase in violence in some areas and quite a remarkable increase 

in car thefts in several border communities which are associated 

with the drug cartels. 

Federal law enforcement official have told us that Phoenix has 

become the most significant hub for marijuana smuggling into the 

United States for the Mexican drug cartels. The law enforcement 

officials at the Federal level also tell us that there is no present 

indication that the cartels plan to carry across the border the extreme violence occurring in Mexico, but, my friends, these cartels 

have the money, the weapons, the network of operatives throughout the United States and the utter disregard for human life to do 

so at some point and that is what we must be on guard for and 

push back. 

According to the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI), the Mexican drug cartels are now the No. 1 organized crime threat in the 

United States, displacing the Mafia. In addition to the kidnappings 

and home invasions that they carry out in places like Arizona, 

which we are going to hear about today, they are increasingly responsible for other crimes. They steal cars from border cities in 

which to smuggle guns and cash back to Mexico. El Paso and Laredo, Texas, have experienced the most dramatic increase in car 

thefts in recent years, but Phoenix and Tucson are now among the 

top 20 most vulnerable cities for car thefts. 

The drug cartels and smuggling organizations also attack each 

other to hijack loads of drugs or aliens from competing operators. 

And of course, the cartels’ primary business is smuggling narcotics 

across the border to distribute in and from more than 230 American cities from Anchorage, Alaska, to Hartford, Connecticut, and 

just about everywhere in between. Incidentally, I say parenthetiVerDate Nov 24 2008 10:46 Jan 12, 2011 Jkt 050382 PO 00000 Frm 00048 Fmt 6601 Sfmt 6601 P:\DOCS\50382.TXT SAFFAIRS PsN: PAT

ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER
45 

cally that part of the response to the Mexican drug cartel violence 

has to continue to be aggressive law enforcement against drug sale 

and usage throughout the United States. 

In that sense, we the American people do bear some responsibility for this crisis because the great demand for illegal drugs by 

Americans and the subsequent flow of illegal cash, billions and billions of dollars of it, and weapons into Mexico clearly fuel the cartels’ explosive growth and provides them with the resources to 

wage war with each other and with the Mexican government, and 

increasingly with people here in America. 

President Obama has recognized the severity of the problem. 

Last week he was in Mexico with President Calderon discussing, 

planning operational responses to the crisis. Three top Obama Cabinet officials have traveled south of the border in the last month, 

Homeland Security Secretary Napolitano, former governor here of 

course, has gone twice already. The Department of Homeland Security is redeploying resources to the border to step up the detection 

of arms and cash bound for Mexico and drugs and undocumented 

aliens bound for the United States. 

Just last week, Secretary Napolitano announced the appointment 

of a man named Alan Bersin to be a so-called special representative for border affairs. A border czar, if you will, whose job it is to 

make sure the Administration’s border initiatives in response to 

the Mexican drug cartels is efficient, coordinated, and effective. 

DHS is now also finalizing a government-wide contingency plan if 

violence spills further across the border. And the State Department 

is implementing the $1.4 million Merida Initiative to screen and 

train Mexican law enforcement officers, purchase helicopters for 

the Mexican military, support reform of Mexico’s judicial system, 

and purchase and deploy scanning technology at border crossings. 

These are significant actions, but we can and must do more. 

With my friends here on the dais, I am determined to expand the 

resources available to the Department of Homeland Security, the 

Department of Justice, and State and local law enforcement agencies in the border region in States like Arizona to take on the cartels in the most forceful way we can. With broad bipartisan support, this Committee’s Ranking Member, Susan Collins, Senators 

McCain and Kyl, and I passed an amendment to the Senate budget 

resolution just a few weeks ago for Fiscal Year 2010 budget, which 

would add $550 million for beefed up law enforcement along the 

U.S.-Mexican border. 

It would send over 2,000 more law enforcement officers and investigators to the border region and specifically set aside $40 million for State and local law enforcement to expand your anti-cartel 

operations. We intend to ask that some of that money be added to 

the Fiscal Year 2009 Emergency Supplemental Appropriations bill 

when it moves through Congress in the next few weeks. Particularly to backfill in for the approximately 400 Department of Homeland Security employees that Secretary Napolitano has redeployed 

from elsewhere in the country to the border. 

You know, my friends, that State and local law enforcement is 

where the rubber ultimately meets the road here. What we do at 

the Federal level is critically important, but it will not have the impact we need it to have if we do not work in concert with you, our 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER
46 

partners in this war against the Mexican drug cartels. That is why 

our Committee has come to Phoenix this morning to hear the witnesses that we are privileged to have before and to continue to 

work with them to protect the safety of the people of border States 

and all of the United States from this very critical threat to America’s Homeland Security. 

Senator McCain. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR MCCAIN 

Senator MCCAIN. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, and 

thank you for taking the time from your busy schedule to be here 

in Arizona, one of the frontline States in the struggle that we are 

facing as far as the violence that has been generated by many of 

the causes that we will hear from our witnesses today. I am very 

grateful you came and I also appreciate the fact that you will hear 

first hand from Arizona’s local and State elected officials and law 

enforcement officers on the increasing violence along the U.S.-Mexico border. I appreciate those who were invited to testify, but unable to attend, including Sheriff Joe Arpaio, who submitted written 

testimony. The Committee is here today to hear from those who 

have the difficult job of securing the safety of the citizens of Arizona and the Nation despite the fact that our Southwest border is 

not yet as secure. And as we know all too well here in Arizona, violence associated with illegal drug traffic by the Mexican drug cartels is a real problem and must be addressed. 

It is for that reason that I have joined the calls for the National 

Guard to be sent to the border. I look forward to hearing our witnesses’ ideas on the how best to deploy the Guard and what other 

solutions they propose be taken. 

Due to the insecure border and the high demand for illegal drugs 

in the United States, the drug cartels’ activities are impacting the 

security of the United States and particularly border States like 

Arizona. I am sad to say that the city of Phoenix is now the kidnapping capital of the United States and second only to Mexico 

City for the most kidnappings in any city in the world. The city of 

Nogales has seen several gun battles break out in broad daylight 

between Mexican police and the drug cartels just a couple of miles 

from the border. The city of Tucson has seen its crime rate increase 

this past year, especially for property crimes and car thefts. Each 

of these instances can be traced to an increase of violence along the 

Mexican border and the high demand for illegal drugs within the 

United States. 

For these reasons, I was pleased that the Administration announced last month the addition of more personnel to the Southwest border, increased intelligence capability, and better coordination with State, local and Mexican law enforcement authorities. 

But it is not enough. Instead, the United States has cut funding 

to the Mexican government for equipment, training and assistance 

promised as part of the Merida Initiative. We have failed to stop 

the demand for drugs in the United States and been somewhat lax 

in preventing the transport of bulk caches of firearms to Mexico. 

Just last week, the Administration denied Governor Brewer’s request for Federal support to add 250 more National Guard troops 

to be assigned at the border to the Joint Counter-Narcotic/TerVerDate Nov 24 2008 10:46 Jan 12, 2011 Jkt 050382 PO 00000 Frm 00050 Fmt 6601 Sfmt 6601 P:\DOCS\50382.TXT SAFFAIRS PsN: PAT

ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER
47 

rorism Task Force. This is an unacceptable response and I hope our 

witnesses will further explain the ramifications of that decision. 

I hope the hearing today will highlight the outstanding work that 

our State and local officials are performing to provide for the safety 

of Americans despite the unwillingness in some instances of the 

Federal Government to provide the necessary resources to assist 

Mexico in its efforts against the drug cartel violence and to secure 

the Southwest border from the flow of drugs, money laundering 

and illegal immigration. We must do more, and the people at today’s hearing know that fact far better than I can attest. I am very 

eager to hear from them today. 

Additional Federal action is urgently needed and in my judgment, our failure to do more puts at risk the safety and security 

of our citizens each and every day. 

Thank you again Mr. Chairman, and thank you for coming to Arizona. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Thank you Senator McCain for that excellent statement. Senator Kyl we would welcome an opening statement from you now. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR JON KYL, A U.S. SENATOR 

FROM THE STATE OF ARIZONA 

Senator KYL. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for holding this hearing 

and thank you Senator McCain for coming up with the important 

idea to highlight the issues and learn as a result of hearing from 

friends here in Arizona. 

Let me begin by just reiterating one thing my colleague Senator 

McCain just said. We need to recognize the outstanding work that 

is being done everyday under very dangerous circumstances by the 

Federal officials, the State officials, and the local officials. They are 

working very hard under very difficult circumstances. 

I view there to be two purposes for this hearing today. First of 

all to hear from the people who are literally on the ground closest 

to the problem what is occurring; and second to get their recommendations as to what to do about it. Having talked to several 

in advance, I know it will to a large extent boil down to resources. 

And because the State of Arizona is not in a position right now to 

spend additional resources on this problem, which is after all an 

international problem—people coming across our border committing crimes from another country—clearly the resource issue has to 

be taken back to Washington, DC. 

So I see part of the benefit of this hearing, our ability to take 

what we hear today, both anecdotally and statistically, and just 

from the experience that these people have and go back to Washington to be able to better persuade our colleagues in the Congress 

and people in the Administration of what has to be done and why 

the resources are so significant. 

And another point I would like to make is this. We tend to focus 

on the people who would actually be standing guard at the border 

or who would be arresting people for crimes and with good reason, 

that is where it begins. But then we tend to forget that there is 

an entire chain in the criminal justice process that also has to be 

funded for this to be effective. You need to have, for example, people to prosecute the cases and for defense of those charged you 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER
48 

have to have public defenders, that costs money. Obviously, you 

have to have enough judges and court personnel, court rooms. You 

have to have jails to put the individuals if they are incarcerated. 

The transportation requirements are daunting as well. 

So we cannot just focus on the border patrol or on more resources 

for the Sheriff’s office, though I know they would like more resources, but they need it but also we need it up and down the 

chain. 

Just to give you an illustration, I am told by Judge Roll, who is 

the chief presiding Federal district judge here, that there is a significant need for more judges, more courthouses, and I would note 

that when the number of prosecutors were added to this district, 

the felony case filings for the first 3 months of this year have increased by 24 percent. 

Now, the point is, there is a relationship between the people you 

have to prosecute the cases and the number of cases that get prosecuted. People on the ground will tell you that there is a threshold 

of 500 pounds of marijuana. We are on track to interdict 1.2 million 

pounds of marijuana this year. What do you do if you cannot prosecute the cases? There is a lot of anecdotal evidence that under 500 

pounds, the cases are not prosecuted. 

You can see that when we add new prosecutors, you get a lot 

more cases filed, and if they are not filed, and the people just continue to get away with what they are doing, then we are not obviously solving the problem. So, we need to view it from beginning 

to end of the criminal justice process and make sure that it is all 

adequately resourced. 

I would like to just conclude with two, quick points. 

Senator McCain and Senator Lieberman both mentioned the 

Merida support. Anything that the United States can do to assist 

the government of Mexico, which is now very strongly committed 

to helping us, will be a benefit not only to them, but to us, as well, 

and we need to be very open-minded about the kind of support that 

we can provide to them. 

And, finally, and this is just a personal note, but I had a meeting 

recently with the head of the Drug Enforcement Agency (DEA) 

here, and I asked this question specifically: I said, what happens 

if we were to legalize marijuana, would that solve that problem? 

Her view, which confirmed mine, is no, it will not. We are dealing 

with very bad actors who are going to make money illegally one 

way or another. They found a way to do it through smuggling, 

whether it is through people or methamphetamine. Eighty percent 

of methamphetamine now comes from Mexico. You can legalize one, 

but unless you are willing to legalize it all, and then have it apply 

to anybody of any age. 

In other words, the point is, you cannot just legalize a piece of 

it and expect to have the problem solved. We need to solve this 

from a resource point of view and learn from the experts what else 

needs to be done. I really appreciate you’re holding this hearing so 

that we can find that out, Mr. Chairman. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Thanks, Senator Kyl. That is a really 

good point because I was once an Attorney General, and you never 

have enough resources to prosecute every case you want to prosecute. So you have to make priorities, and some of the drug cases 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER
49 

1The prepared statement of Governor Brewer appears in the Appendix on page 195. 

may end up being lower in the priority list, including some of the 

gateway drugs like marijuana. But the impact of that up the line 

I think is significant. 

So, I thank both of my colleagues for, again, bringing us here and 

for the good statements they have made. We now look forward to 

the testimony of our witnesses in exactly the way both Senators 

have indicated. 

First, we are honored to have the Governor of Arizona, the Hon. 

Jan Brewer here for us, and we welcome your testimony at this 

time. 

STATEMENT OF HON. JANICE BREWER,1 GOVERNOR, STATE 

OF ARIZONA 

Governor BREWER. Thank you, Chairman Lieberman, and Senators McCain and Kyl, let me thank you and the Senate Committee 

on Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs for holding this 

very timely and critical important hearing today. Arizona appreciates you making this a priority, for taking time to be here to 

learn firsthand what our State is engaged in regarding the border. 

Mr. Chairman, someone whom I admire greatly once described 

the Arizona border situation eloquently. He stated those of us from 

border States witness every day the impact illegal immigration is 

having on our friends and our neighbors. Our country and city 

services, our economy, and our environment, we deal with the degradation of our lands and the demands imposed on our hospitals 

and other public resources. Our current system does not protect us 

from people who want to harm us. It does not meet the needs of 

our economy, and it leaves too many people vulnerable to exploitation and abuse. 

I happen to totally agree with those sentiments made by Senator 

McCain. Senator, you are absolutely right, our system does not protect us, and Americans should have the right to feel safe in their 

homes. The fact is too many avenues exist for illegal trafficking of 

drugs and immigrants, which unfortunately makes Arizona particularly an attractive State for those factions engaged in these illegal activities. 

I am very grateful for the work of the Federal authorities and 

our own law enforcement resources such as the Arizona Department of Public Safety, county sheriffs, and municipal police departments, all of which keep a watchful eye and ear while we citizens 

work, rest, and recreate. 

It should be mentioned, however, that despite the vast efforts in 

Arizona, as governor, I still cannot state unequivocally that Arizona is immune from spillover effects of the Mexican drug wars. 

Unfortunately, Arizona’s reputation as ‘‘ground zero’’ for illegal 

narcotic smuggling, human smuggling, and kidnapping is directly 

related to our border status and the growing threat posed by criminal syndicates south of the border. The relative success of our law 

enforcement north of the border should not lull the Federal Government into believing things will always be this way. 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER
50 

Mr. Chairman, I have identified five primary suggestions that I 

believe our national policymakers should consider regarding our 

border. 

First, the Federal Government should give serious consideration 

to my March 24, 2009, request to increase the National Guard 

presence on Arizona’s border by 250 soldiers. Redeploying current 

and existing resources as a first step, but it is more important that 

border States and local and tribal law enforcement receive a surge 

in additional Federal funding and additional resources to respond 

to the clear increased threat of violence and kidnapping. 

Chairman Lieberman, you recognized this need for additional funding when you introduced legislation to add $550 million in 

Federal money to better secure our borders. My hope is the Administration and Congress will seriously give consideration to both of 

our proposals, and, Mr. Chairman, as the Committee moves forward, I hope it considers that while technology and physical barriers are an important tool in dealing with border challenges, boots 

on the ground combined with solid intelligence is what really facilitates adequate response and effective prevention. 

Next, I believe Congress must strive for a sensible immigration 

policy that first and foremost focuses on securing our border. There 

is no more important border policy than that. 

Second, the Federal Government should make prosecution of 

human trafficking activities a top priority. 

My third suggestion is that all the ports of entry between Arizona and Mexico should be modernized and outfitted to balance appropriate traffic flow with the needs for inspection and other security measures. 

Next, I believe it is time for the Federal Government to address 

the immense fiscal burden that border States are unfairly shouldering in combating illegal immigration. 

To date, the Federal Government is not bearing its full responsibility in law enforcement. Education, healthcare, human services, 

and the correction system are directly tied to illegal immigration 

and human smuggling. 

Mr. Chairman, I think any discussion about violence on our 

Southern Border must also be upfront in recognizing that the 

United States still has a hefty appetite for illegal drugs. The price 

we pay for illegal trafficking of these drugs is enormous. Addressing these matters requires a comprehensive, national look at what 

works and what does not work. 

In conclusion, Mr. Chairman and Senators, these are just a few 

perspectives from the State of Arizona on how we see the challenges on the border. I have said before that Arizona and the 

Southern Border States cannot and should not have to shoulder the 

burden of securing our borders and protecting our citizens from 

these seeking to do us harm. A porous border ultimately can leave 

the entire country at risk. 

I appreciate the opportunity to testify in front of the Committee 

of Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs, and I thank you, 

Mr. Chairman, and I would be happy to answer any questions. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Thank you very much, Governor. You said 

a lot in the short time that we gave you, and I appreciate that very 

much. We look forward to the question and answer period. 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER
51 

1The prepared statement of Mr. Goddard appears in the Appendix on page 199. 

2The chart referenced by Mr. Goddard appears in the Appendix on page 207. 

Attorney General Goddard, welcome and good to see you again. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. TERRY GODDARD,1 ATTORNEY 

GENERAL, STATE OF ARIZONA 

Mr. GODDARD. Thank you, Chairman Lieberman, Senator 

McCain, Senator Kyl, and I join the governor in thanking you for 

conducting this field hearing here in Arizona, the point where the 

problems of the Southwest Border are most acute, most critical. I 

hope I can provide some insight on how, as the Chairman just suggested, that we can focus on what has been going on in our State 

in terms of combating the organized crime threat. 

Mr. Chairman, you’ve already stated that this has been identified by the FBI as the No. 1 organized crime threat. I won’t repeat 

my remarks along that line because you summarized it so well, but 

I would point out that the criminal syndicates that we are fighting 

against are highly flexible, paramilitary organizations, and they 

use violence as an integral of their modus operandi, of their business plan, and that is what we are dealing with. 

Their operations are made up of at least four, primary, criminal 

enterprises, and I have a very rudimentary drawing over here that 

shows them in graphic style, but I think it is important to keep all 

four in mind. Guns and cash, smuggled south, drugs and human 

beings, smuggled north, and each leg of that stool needs to be paid 

attention. Arizona has increasingly become home to the cartels’ 

most lucrative and heavily-utilized smuggling corridors, and the 

corridors are really what we need to be cognizant of and pay attention to. Approximately half of the northbound contraband in human 

beings and drugs passes through our State, and the fiscal impact 

that the governor just referred to is as a result of that literal flood 

of illegal activity. 

While most of the violence has been in Mexico, this is by no 

means just a Mexican problem or just a border problem. The Department of Homeland Security recently identified cartel activity in 

230 cities, as the Chairman mentioned, and Hartford, Connecticut, 

is not immune from the kind of threats that we see here on the 

Southwestern Border. There is a dot for Hartford, Mr. Chairman, 

on the map to which I refer.2

This does not show all 230 U.S. cities, but it gives a representative sample of how widespread the cartel activities are in this country and the active partnership that the cartels have joined in with 

street gangs and prison gangs throughout this country to facilitate 

the distribution of drugs is something of which we need to be constantly cognizant. 

For the U.S. Border Patrol, the Tucson Sector is only 13 percent 

of their jurisdiction of the U.S.-Mexico Border, but it is responsible 

for approximately 44 percent of the interdiction of human beings 

that are smuggled across the border and a similar amount of drug 

seizures, which, as I believe Senator Kyl mentioned, is hitting a 

record this year—1.2 million pounds of illegal drugs is where they 

appear to be headed. 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER
52 

1The chart referenced by Mr. Goddard appears in the Appendix on page 208. 

And here, in the city of Phoenix, despite, I am sure the chief will 

tell you, a shrinking violent crime rate, of which the police are justifiably very proud, the kidnappings are out of control, almost one 

a day in this community. Tucson has become a leader, unfortunately, for home invasions, and here, at the Attorney General’s Office, we have been dealing for almost a decade with human smuggling and all of its associated crimes, including money laundering, 

extortion, human trafficking, and murder. And Arizona law enforcement has a great record of successful collaboration. 

Just in the last year, my office coordinated with Federal, State, 

and local law enforcement agencies in four major organized crime 

takedowns: A major arms trafficking organization; a Coyote organization that was smuggling over 10,000 people a year across the 

border; another which transported from Phoenix to cities around 

the country over 8,000 people a year; and, finally, a drug smuggling 

operation which, in 4 years, had brought over 2 million pounds of 

marijuana across the Mexican Border. 

These are important successes, but I do not want to deceive the 

Committee or anyone else. As big as they are, they only impact a 

very small part of the total of the cartel business. 

From my seat, it seems clear that our effort against the cartels 

must change in at least three ways. 

First, we need better communication and information sharing at 

all levels of law enforcement, State, local, and Federal, and with 

our Mexican counterparts, something that is still very rudimentary. 

Second, we need to attack all aspects of cartel operations. As this 

diagram shows, drugs, people, guns, and money flow across the 

border, but I would submit especially money has been the weak 

spot in my opinion.1 Southbound traffic is as important as northbound traffic, and that involves bulk cash, large amounts of hundred-dollar bills literally bailed together, and other means of money 

transportation that I will get into in a minute. 

And, third, we need coordinated command and control for the entire border region, employing all the Federal resources coordinated 

with State and local. For too long, we have had silos that have divided us and divided the Federal effort. 

Let me just say a little about the money. We call them blood 

wires that are used to pay for people being transmitted into the 

United States, and I would like to recognize Cameron Holmes, who 

is right behind me. He’s the head of our Financial Crimes 

Taskforce in the Attorney General’s Office, and I would submit one 

of the true money laundering experts in the United States. It is his 

expertise that allows us in the Attorney General’s Office over the 

last almost 10 years to be aggressively monitoring the wire transfer 

activity to the cartels and intercepting over $17 million of that activity. Now, that is a drop in the bucket, but it has caused major 

disruption in the kind of money transfer for illegal activities such 

that hundreds of millions of dollars that used to be coming into the 

State of Arizona are not doing that today. 

We have learned a few lessons, and if I could summarize those 

quickly for the Committee, it shows that we are up against a wellorganized, criminal organization. They are sophisticated, high-tech, 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER
53 

and very flexible. Our response needs to be equally well-coordinated if we are going to succeed. 

The cartels meet resistance, law enforcement resistance by shifting ground. It may be geographical; it may be in terms of their 

business enterprise, whenever they get pushback. We have to be as 

opportunistic and as flexible if we are going to be successful. We 

need a seamless local, State, and Federal response, and I would be 

happy to go through in more detail with questions. 

A couple of very specific requests. One, we have partnerships at 

the local level that are working. I would submit the High-Intensity, 

Drug-Trafficking Area (HIDTA), a hard acronym to pronounce, is 

one such model, where the Federal, State, and local authorities 

truly get together and make cases and have brought real prosecution results. 

But I want to emphasize to this Committee how important our 

failures are in the area of stopping the hemorrhaging of cash to the 

cartel bank accounts. We need a region-wide, bi-national, coordinated attack on corrupt money transmitters. I believe we can shut 

them down, but we need much better information to do it. 

And I would like to simply show you one item. This is a storedvalue card. This kind of card, which we think of as a gift certificate, has been used to move hundreds of thousands, if not millions, 

of dollars across the border. It is not a financial instrument under 

U.S. law, and, as a result, there is no crime to take $1 million in 

a card like this and take it across the border. That single regulatory change has been pending for years, and I would submit that 

the time is long past that it has to be implemented. Stored-value 

cards are money, and they must be curbed in crossing the border. 

Recognition has been paid to the Merida Initiative. That is a critical effort to make sure that our efforts are on both sides of the border, and, just to conclude, the violence will not be contained until 

the Mexican drug cartels are destroyed. 

In the interest of the United States to assist Mexico in its courageous fight, and we need to step up our own efforts to dismantle 

the cartels’ operations on this side of the border, our attack must 

be changed, I think, fundamentally to reflect the seriousness of the 

threat. We must fight smarter and we must fight harder. 

The single best way is to cut off the flow of illegal money. It 

should have been done years ago, it must be done now. We face an 

urgent, public safety threat, as the Committee has recognized by 

your presence here today, and we look forward to working with you 

to try to solve and overcome this problem. 

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Thanks very much, General Goddard. I 

think we will do 5-minute rounds of questions, and we will keep 

moving until we have finished our questions. I appreciate your 

statement, and it brought to mind the similarities, if you will allow 

me, between fighting the Mexican drug cartels and the war we are 

in against terrorism, specifically Islamist terrorism. Some of it is 

just the broader view, which is, as you said, the drug cartels are 

now paramilitary organizations with the money to buy very sophisticated, military equipment, but with a paramilitary approach. 

Second, just as the terrorist groups are defined by a willingness 

to use brutal violence to achieve their political ends, the Mexican 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER
54 

drug cartels are defined by a willingness to use brutal violence to 

achieve, I supposed you’d say, their business ends, which is the 

sale of drugs. And I am also struck by your specific call for us to 

focus on the financial transactions that the drug cartels are involved in because, as we found at the Federal level, some of the 

most effective work we have done against terrorist groups like alQaeda and now increasingly against State sponsors of terrorism 

like Iran, has to do with tying them up financially, in that sense, 

trying to close off part of the lifeblood of these organizations. 

And the stored-value cards are one indication of that. You’ve 

probably done more work on this than I or my staff have, but is 

this a matter of simple regulatory change or is it, as I had originally thought, requiring a law change at the Federal level? 

Mr. GODDARD. Mr. Chairman, Members of the Committee, my 

understanding is what we need to do in terms of stored-value cards 

is to define them as monetary instruments subject to reporting in 

the Currency and Monetary Incident Reports (CMIRs), and that 

change is statutory. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. OK, so, then we are going to work to really accelerate some action on that, and, of course, this shows you 

that the enemy here, the drug cartels, are smart, so, they know 

what the law is here in the United States. You do not have to be 

a genius, but they have figured out this is a great way to move 

money across the border because it is not technically illegal. So, it 

is time for us to make it illegal. 

And any other ideas about stopping the flow of cash, better stopping the flow of cash? 

At the hearing we held in Washington on March 25, 2009, one 

of the government witnesses—of course, you can not come up with 

a hard figure on this—estimated that the annual takeout of the 

United States by the Mexican drug cartels is between $17 billion 

and $38 billion. I mean, that would make it one of the largest businesses in the United States. What more can we do to stop the cash 

from flowing southward? 

Mr. GODDARD. Mr. Chairman, Members of the Committee, the 

number that you’ve just used is the drug revenues. Human smuggling revenues, we believe, exceed $2 billion. So, it may be small 

in the comparison, but it is also a major business opportunity. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. That is absolutely right. 

Mr. GODDARD. And one that they use. I have a couple of other 

specific suggestions. One is that we lower the threshold for mandatory reporting of single transaction money transfers. 

Currently, whenever we cross an international border, it asks if 

we have over $10,000 of currency. I believe that number is way too 

high, and that, in fact, it would help us immeasurably in terms of 

finding the smugglers if we could have a reduced number. I do not 

have a specific number, but I believe that is too high, along with 

recognizing stored-valued cards as part of that $10,000, I think 

we’d go a long way. 

I also think—and this is, I believe, a regulatory issue—the Internal Revenue Service (IRS) does, in fact, examine all of the money 

transmitters, but it does it on a random basis. I can tell you, Mr. 

Holmes and his staff can tell you precisely where the risks of greatest criminal activity are through the money transmitters in parVerDate Nov 24 2008 10:46 Jan 12, 2011 Jkt 050382 PO 00000 Frm 00058 Fmt 6601 Sfmt 6601 P:\DOCS\50382.TXT SAFFAIRS PsN: PAT

ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER
55 

ticular that are shifting money across the border for the cartels. It 

does not take rocket science, it is a matter of statistical examination, and if they use a risk-based analysis and go after the various 

transmitters who are the source of the greatest risk, they could go 

a long way to shutting down these criminal operations, and they 

are, in fact, criminal and they are on both sides of the border, and 

they need better attention. So, I am talking about money transmitters here, that is Western Union and the other—— 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Right. 

Mr. GODDARD [continuing]. Wire transfer operations which have 

been very helpful to the cartels in filling their pockets, and I think 

we have been working virtually alone here in the State of Arizona 

to try to cut off their access to funds. We could certainly use all 

the assistance we can get from other States and from Federal authorities. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Those are very helpful suggestions, and 

we will take them back to Washington with us. 

Governor, I thought you made an interesting point about National Guard personnel. Again, I know there are great differences, 

but one of the things we learned in Iraq, of course, is that numbers 

matter, that personnel on the ground, boots on the ground matter 

when you’re in a conflict, and it seems to me that we are understaffed, under-resourced in responding to the Mexican drug cartels. 

I know you’ve made this call for National Guard personnel. 

Tell me what thoughts you had more specifically about what they 

might do if the National Guard were involved in this. 

Governor BREWER. Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman, and it is important. 

I think the people of Arizona are alarmed that we do not have 

our borders secured, and, by that reason, we are the recipient of 

drug smuggling, money laundering, and kidnapping. I believe that 

we need to get additional National Guardsmen on the border in 

order to secure our border, regardless, Mr. Chairman and Senators, 

of all the issues that come to Arizona and other border States. If 

we do not secure our borders quickly, we are at great risk. I believe 

that if we could get an additional 250 National Guardsmen on the 

border, they would be able to help law enforcement along the border and relieve them from doing things such as communication, logistics, and planning—all those things that take up their time from 

actually supporting the border security. 

Mr. Chairman, it is absolutely ultimately most important that 

Congress understands that we are the recipient of all these horrible things that could take place in Arizona and the whole United 

States if we do not secure the border. We need resources. We need 

boots on the ground, and I know, Mr. Chairman, that it has been 

mentioned on a couple of occasions that taking our National Guard 

and putting them on the border would possibly be taking them 

from maybe some of the other responsible duties that they are 

there to perform. However, they would still be in training, they 

would still be ready to go if they needed to be deployed somewhere, 

but, at this time, I cannot stress enough on behalf of the State of 

Arizona and on behalf of the people of Arizona that we have to 

have our borders secured. 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER
56 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Thanks, Governor. My time is up. Senator 

McCain. 

Senator MCCAIN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Governor, just to 

follow-up on this issue of more troops, you asked for 250 National 

Guardsmen. Were you surprised by the response? 

Governor BREWER. I was very surprised. The reaction from the 

Obama Administration appeared to be very negative and I believe 

that it was very irresponsible, given the fact that through the 

Homeland Security Department, the past governor saw the need, 

and now we are not seeing the help that we need. I certainly know 

that Arizona and other States are facing greater and greater challenges from illegal drugs and insecure borders. We face very unique 

threats, and I just feel very disappointed that the Federal Government has not stepped up and has done what their responsibilities 

are, and I have left the control, if you will, up to our local law enforcement, our local State Department, public safety, our sheriffs, 

and our police organizations. I am disappointed. 

Senator MCCAIN. Thank you, Governor. 

I believe, from having visited Mexico City myself—and the President has visited Mexico City—that we are getting from Mexico City 

an almost unprecedented level of cooperation. Now, there are serious corruption problems and there are other problems, but are you 

getting that same kind of cooperation from the governor of Sonora? 

Governor BREWER. Well, we have been in contact and we have 

met, and in my opinion, I do not believe they are as concerned 

about the open illegal immigration and the drugs coming in to the 

State of Arizona. 

Senator, we have to secure the border, and that will solve our 

problem. We, in Arizona, and the other border States need resources to take on this challenge. If we secure the border—and I 

understand, Senator McCain, that they have issues down there, 

and I appreciate the problems that they are having to deal with, 

but the fact of the matter is if we get the resources, if we get the 

support, and if the Federal Government does what they are supposed to be doing according to our Constitution, those problems 

would halt. We need a secure border. 

Senator MCCAIN. Attorney General Goddard, I will ask the other 

witnesses this, but you are involved in this issue every single day 

and fighting it every day. We have talked a lot about statistics and 

being the kidnapping capital of the country and the world with the 

exception of Mexico City. These numbers, billions and billions of 

dollars, put a human story on that, tell us a little bit about the 

Coyotes and what they do and tell us a little bit about some of the 

heinous acts of murder and torture that take place. Put a human 

face on this issue for us, would you? 

Mr. GODDARD. Thank you, Mr. Chairman and Senator McCain, 

it is an extraordinary tale that is probably heard too seldom, and 

thank you for the opportunity to at least try. 

Human smuggling has become—I think there is a myth out there 

that at one point it was almost a Robin Hood type activity, that 

people were guided through the desert to seek a better life, and the 

people who guided them were good Samaritans. We have no illusions about that today, and I believe the Mexican officials have no 

illusions either because what we have now through the active 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER
57 

intervention of the criminal cartels is a highly organized criminal 

activity using the same roots that the drug smugglers are using, 

and those Coyotes, those criminal operatives that bring people 

across the border, either are in the cartels themselves or are subsidiaries, they pay a tariff in essence, and only move people when 

they are given permission by the major bosses because there is an 

integrated dance on the border between drugs and people. Sometimes they are synonymous, sometimes they are separated, and always, they are part of a criminal operation. 

When they get to Phoenix, and this is, unfortunately, the distribution point for the entire country, these folks, and they are 

numbered in the millions—we still believe the folks crossing 

through the Arizona border and through this State, approximately 

1 million human beings a year, and, so, they go to drop houses in 

the Phoenix area, some in Tucson, but mostly Phoenix because of 

our excellent access to transportation, and from there, the Coyotes 

move them across—— 

Senator MCCAIN. But many times, they are terribly mistreated 

or held—— 

Mr. GODDARD. I am getting to that, Senator. I am sorry if I am 

overlong for the Committee. Very often, we find that there are extortionate demands, the price that was originally quoted becomes 

double or triple what it originally was. We are investigating to try 

to find a number of murderers who literally took somebody from a 

group that protested the new price and shot them right in front of 

the others to make sure the collections would go easier. 

And I would like to emphasize that we use the word human 

smuggling and human trafficking almost interchangeably. They are 

not. Smuggling is when somebody pays a fee and goes to a destination of their choice, trafficking is when somebody comes across the 

border as a virtual slave. But because the drop houses have turned 

into prisons, the individuals there, it is hard to tell whether they 

are trafficked or smuggled, and, all too often, they end up in the 

sex trade or as individuals that are being held for personal labor 

without compensation, and, so, unfortunately, we are seeing an incredible rise in human trafficking as a direct result of the organized criminal activities in smuggling. And, so, anybody who wants 

to think today that this is a benign or humanitarian episode is 

sadly mistaken. 

Senator MCCAIN. Thank you and thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Thank you, Senator McCain. Senator Kyl. 

Senator KYL. Thank you. If I could just follow-up on that last 

point. As Senator McCain said, the real story is the human tragedy 

story and not just the statistics, but, as a result of what you said, 

would you also believe that the number of reported crimes such as 

kidnappings, rapes, robberies, etc., are probably underreported due 

to the fact that so many of the victims are themselves illegal immigrants? 

Mr. GODDARD. Mr. Chairman and Senator Kyl, I know Chief 

Harris and Mayor Gordon will speak to that, but there is no question that this is a significantly underreported crime, whether it is 

1 in 10 or 1 in 3, I do not know, and I guess nobody does, but the 

fact is that we have criminal groups fighting with each other, and 

what I should have mentioned in response to Senator McCain’s 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER
58 

question is the terror among the victims when somebody heavily 

armed and wearing ski masks seizes a drop house from one gang 

and takes it over on behalf of another, a group kidnapping, if you 

will, which turns those people into objects of extortion, and the extortion activity also extends south of the border. 

A lot of the times the Coyotes will simply go to the families that 

they know have individuals working in the United States and will 

threaten to kidnap them, and the police in Sonora and other parts 

of Mexico are very concerned that wire transfers are being used to 

expedite extortion of their citizens, as well. 

Senator KYL. You said that a lot of the routes are the same and 

that the smuggling of drugs, as well as human beings has been 

taken over by the cartels to a significant degree. 

Can you put some kind of a number on that? In other words, 

would you say that the bulk of the smuggling of illegal immigrants 

has been taken over by the same kind of folks that are smuggling 

drugs? 

Mr. GODDARD. Mr. Chairman and Senator Kyl, unquestionably, 

I doubt there are any independent operatives in the market today. 

The cartels are that powerful and they either charge a per-person 

tax to use the corridor or they move the people themselves using 

their operational techniques. 

We had a River-Walker case that you probably are familiar with 

back in February. It was indicted. It basically took an entire Coyote 

organization from the drivers to the housekeepers at the drop 

houses and eliminated it, but the sophistication and the level of 

specialization within that criminal operation were extraordinary. 

Senator KYL. Let me ask Governor Brewer a question. If there 

is time, I want to get back to the money issue that you brought up, 

governor, but you went over quickly because of your time, but you 

mentioned the costs to Arizona society, you mentioned hospitals, 

you mentioned the cost of the governments. There are two specific 

programs. One is the State Criminal Alien Assistance Program 

(SCAAP), and that has been authorized at $950 million a year. In 

the last couple of years, the appropriated amount is somewhere in 

the $400 million range. In other words, less than half. 

The question is whether that is one of the programs that you 

would like to see more resources in. And then, second is the socalled Section 1011 Program for hospital reimbursement for taking 

care of illegal immigrants who, under the law, emergency rooms 

are required to treat, and it is only up to the point of stabilization 

of the patient. That program has terminated, and except for some 

money that is still available to Arizona hospitals, the program is 

terminated for the other States because their money was paid out 

more rapidly, but that money will be going for Arizona hospitals, 

as well, by the end of this year. 

Is that another example, and are there any others that you want 

to make specific reference to? 

Governor BREWER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman and Senator Kyl. 

Absolutely, and as you are more than aware, in the last few 

years, Arizona has been very severely neglected in regards to receiving the reimbursement from the Federal Government in regards to the SCAAP dollars, and Senator Kyl, I remember you 

working with me when I was chairman of the Maricopa County 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER
59 

Board of Supervisors because we, of course, were the ones that held 

the responsibility in our jails here in Maricopa County. So, we are 

continually trying to get the Federal Government to pay their 

share that is most necessary because the resources are just eating 

up our budget and we cannot continue to go down that path over 

and over again, and we are going to make another request to be 

reimbursed our fair share of those dollars. We really do receive the 

huge burden. 

In regard to the hospital cost, again, you realize how large these 

illegal immigration costs are to our hospital system. Because of the 

illegal immigration, they use our hospitals for emergency services, 

they use them for colds, and they show up at any given time and 

use up all the resources. We cannot continue to afford to take care 

of all these people that are coming in illegally through our borders. 

Our State, as you certainly are aware—we are in a state of catastrophe, and to have the citizens of Arizona continue to have to 

serve all these costs to the border being insecure is totally unfair. 

And, Mr. Chairman, Senator Kyl, and Senator McCain, it is the 

Federal Government’s responsibility to protect our borders. 

Senator KYL. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Thank you, Senator Kyl. Let us do a second round with the Governor and the Attorney General. 

Attorney General, let me start this one with you. As you all 

know, the Mexicans regularly call on us, the government, to help 

reduce the flow of weapons into Mexico. This was a major element 

of what President Calderon pleaded to President Obama in the recent visit, and, of course, it is a fact based on all the studies that 

we see that an overwhelming majority of the weapons that are 

seized from the drug cartels in Mexico are coming from the United 

States. I suppose for the obvious reason that we do not say enough 

but it is true, that it is our gun laws that are more liberal so to 

speak, it is easier to purchase a gun here than it is in Mexico, that 

is part of our constitutional system. 

What effectively can we do about it? I know that people have 

been called for a reinstitution of the ban on automatic weapon 

sales in the United States. I support that, but I suppose President 

Obama at least seemed to say to me when he spoke about it, it is 

not likely to pass Congress. 

There have been calls for closing the gun show loophole. That is 

a good idea, I think. Gun show loophole, long story short means 

that at a gun show you can buy a gun without having to present 

the personal background information that you do when you go into 

a licensed gun dealer to buy a gun. That will help. As I have gathered interestingly and noteworthy that most of the guns that are 

sent from the United States to Mexico are purchased legally in the 

first instance. And you correct me if I am wrong. In other words, 

the use of straw men to go into licensed gun dealers to buy them. 

So, I suppose another obvious thing we could try to do, and this 

goes to the monitoring that you are talking about. Right now, most 

people in America do not know this. You know it here at the border; there is effectively little or no inspection of traffic moving 

southward as opposed to traffic moving northward. There are random checks at best. That is obviously one way, both on our side of 

the border and on the Mexican side of the border to try to stop the 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER
60 

flow of guns from here to there, but give me your sense of the dimensions of this problem and what you think we can really effectively do to try to assist keeping guns out of the hands of the Mexican cartels. 

Mr. GODDARD. Mr. Chairman, thank you. I believe we can do a 

lot more. There is no question it is a major problem. 

Two years ago, a group of attorneys general were in Cuernavaca 

to meet with all the state and Federal law enforcement prosecution 

arm in Mexico. Their attorney general, Eduardo Medina Mora, 

made it very clear that he felt the United States was deficient in 

enforcing the laws on the books today. He said, ‘‘I understand you 

have a Second Amendment, I understand that it is very important 

in the United States. We are not asking you to change one bit of 

your respect for that part of your Constitution. We are, however, 

asking you to enforce the Federal laws against straw buyers, which 

are, unfortunately, often in the breach.’’ 

You have here in this room, and I do not know if it is later in 

the program, Bill Newell, the head of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms for this region. He has done an extraordinary job, I think, 

with a limited staff in trying to identify where the worst offenders 

are. My office has helped to bring prosecutions against two of those 

worst offenders, and we are anxious to do more. 

You may ask why the State is doing that and not the Federal 

agencies, and I think that is a good question. We talked about limited prosecution resources or Senator Kyl referred to that. I think 

that is one place where our U.S. attorney here in Arizona could 

have some significant help to be sure to be able to bring the cases 

that ATF brings. 

I have two suggestions. One is vigorous enforcement of the straw 

buyer ban. ‘‘Don’t lie for the other guy,’’ as the National Shooting 

Sports Foundation says. I think that is a great message, and it is 

one that everybody needs to hear. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Would it help to increase the legal penalties for straw buying? 

Mr. GODDARD. I am always in favor of that when I think what 

is happening is literally the carnage in Mexico facilitated by a flood 

of arms coming from this country. Now, not just from this country, 

I guess we have to mention that there are military stores that the 

cartels have access to, which include grenades, rocket-propelled 

grenades, a variety of bazookas, and some extraordinary weapons 

which are not being sold at gun stores, that are not being sold by 

gun shows. So, they have access in other ways, but the AK–47s, the 

AR–15s—— 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Right. 

Mr. GODDARD. The other paramilitary type arms are, in fact, 

coming across the border in extraordinary numbers. They call it a 

parade of ants. Many individuals with two or three arms are going 

across—— 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Right. 

Mr. GODDARD [continuing]. And selling them illegally. The most 

important thing, and you mentioned it, Senator, is to—— 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Excuse me just for a second while I cut 

you off. You said you had two. 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER
61 

Mr. GODDARD. The second one is the southbound inspections. 

Those are almost nonexistent today. We have the technology to do 

vehicle inspections and determine if a significant long gun is in the 

car. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Right. 

Mr. GODDARD. I think that needs to become the rule and not the 

exception, and that could do more than anything without interfering with people’s constitutional rights to stop the flow of guns 

in New Mexico. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. That is a really important suggestion and 

one that we will take back with us as part of the appropriations 

process. 

Incidentally, in terms of ATF, our amendment, if it is carried 

through the budget process, does have funding for ATF to bring on 

150 more investigators and 50 more investors to work on Project 

Gun Runner, but I take your point that it also is important to prosecutorial personnel to see those cases to a finish. 

Let me ask you first, governor, for a quick response to this. 

In the $40 million in our original amendment that we put in, and 

as part of the ornate budget process, this is the recommendation 

and authorizations of the appropriators—$30 million was for Operation Stonegarden grants through the Department of Homeland Security to State and local government for specific work on action related to the Mexican drug cartels, and then $10 million was to 

State and local law enforcement to staff up the fusion centers insofar as the fusion centers, including the one here, are focused on the 

drug cartels. 

How about that division of the $40 million? Leave the amount 

aside, if you were asking us to supplement funding for you at the 

State level to help you help us fight the drug cartels or the impact 

of them, where would you like to see the money focused? 

Governor BREWER. Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

I believe that the people of the State of Arizona and myself believe that we need to secure the border, we need to get the National Guard. I would like Congress and the Obama Administration 

to get the National Guard and boots on the ground. 

Mr. Chairman, I believe fully that if we secure our border, all the 

other issues that we are facing in regards to drug trafficking, kidnapping, border spillover, guns going south of the border, if we 

could get the resources to secure our border, then these other problems would go away in most cases, I believe. I just cannot take this 

time when I have an audience with you and Senators McCain and 

Kyl to express how strongly the State of Arizona and the people believe that our money, our resources, combined with yours ought to 

be used to secure the border. 

We know that there are a lot of issues out there, Mr. Chairman, 

but they all come from our borders not being secured. That is our 

first and primary concern. I would hate to think that all these 

other issues would take the eye of Congress off the real cause that 

is creating the problems, that we do not have a secure border. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. I think you have successfully conveyed 

that message this morning, governor. 

Governor BREWER. Thank you. 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER
62 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. I am over my time, but if you have a 

thought about how you could best use any additional money that 

we would send the State and local—— 

Mr. GODDARD. Very briefly, Members of the Committee, first and 

foremost, I hope you will take a hard look at how the Stonegarden 

funds are allocated, how those grants which now are available to 

your State, with all due respect, Mr. Chairman, is not on the border and is not having 44 percent of the immigrant traffic illegally 

coming across or most of the drugs. So, I would hope we could focus 

that where the problem is most acute, and that, I know, is a vigorous issue. We are also very respectful and find a great deal of 

help from the Arizona Counterterrorism Information Center, which 

is part of the formula that you described. 

So, if our various information aspects through that funding could 

be encouraged to do a better inter-operative communication, we 

have waited far too long to be able to have State, local, and Federal 

law enforcement talk to each other. It seems a very simple request. 

But, Mr. Chairman, it is not been happening, so, we could use the 

money to make sure that when or if a crisis comes on the border, 

we truly can have a coordinated response. I believe that is where 

we ought to focus these monies, to have our agents, basically communication between Federal, State, and local by cell phone instead 

of using the official channels which just do not work, I think would 

be a tremendous step forward. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Well said. Thank you. Senator McCain. 

Senator MCCAIN. Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman. Governor 

Brewer, I agree with you that we have to secure the borders first, 

and that would address a significant portion of the issue. 

I think there is also the fact that Retired Army General Barry 

McCaffrey told the Washington Post in a March 25 article ‘‘adding 

a handful of platoon-sized units is miniscule compared with the 

$2.5 billion the United States military spends in Afghanistan each 

month,’’ and you state in your written testimony these efforts must 

be bolstered and that additional funding is still necessary, which, 

obviously, I agree with. 

Maybe you could provide for the Committee in writing, especially 

since we do not have unlimited amounts of money. There will be, 

I believe, additional sums. I am grateful there is so much publicity 

now as this violence has escalated in such a dramatic degree. If you 

could have your folks submit to us some of your priorities as to how 

we can best secure the border and what needs to be done in addition to that on a more permanent basis, we’d appreciate that since 

we will be revisiting this issue for some time to come, particularly 

in the coming legislation. 

Governor BREWER. Thank you, Senator McCain. 

Senator MCCAIN. Thank you. 

Governor, studies have shown that well-administered drug courts 

can reduce recidivism up to 35 percent, and many counties in Arizona have established drug courts. 

Have you had a chance to look at what is being done here in 

Maricopa County to treat the drug issue? 

Governor BREWER. I have not been briefed totally on that. I am 

a little bit familiar with it, Senator McCain, having served on the 

board of supervisors. The last 3 months, having served as the GovVerDate Nov 24 2008 10:46 Jan 12, 2011 Jkt 050382 PO 00000 Frm 00066 Fmt 6601 Sfmt 6601 P:\DOCS\50382.TXT SAFFAIRS PsN: PAT

ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER
63 

ernor of the State of Arizona, I have been briefed on several different things. 

I will tell you that I believe that the drug courts have been very 

successful as far as Maricopa County and that we should probably 

try to implement those all over the State of Arizona to the standard of which the Maricopa Court System has done. 

Senator MCCAIN. Thank you. Attorney General Goddard. 

Mr. GODDARD. Absolutely. They work. We need more in the area 

of treatment, and I believe Senator Kyl made the reference to the 

drug policy. I would hope that a derivative of your discussions 

would be to put our national drug policy under the microscope, 

hopefully in a non-partisan and non-emotional way. I know that is 

a big order, but we have put huge amounts of money into suppression interdiction with very little result. The price of most illegal 

drugs is as low or lower than it has ever been, and as we now 

know, the border patrol is confiscating at a record level this year. 

So, the epidemic is on, let us look at drug courts and the treatment that they provide and the changes in lives that they have 

been able to accomplish. Let us look at better information. 

Here in Arizona, we have the Anti-Meth Program, which has 

been incredibly successful in reducing methamphetamine use by 

teenagers. We cut it in half in 2 years. I think that means that it 

is hopeful that we can do prevention on a national scale in a way 

that would help to cut down the cartel profits. 

Senator MCCAIN. And it is my understanding that these drug 

courts are very tough. That there is constant testing, that if there 

is one mistake, the individual goes to prison. That it is a very 

tough program, not one that—I think maybe that there is not a 

good understanding how tough this program is. 

Is that your understanding? 

Mr. GODDARD. Yes, sir. It is tough, and, frankly, the judges that 

are involved get heavily involved in each case, and they do not accept the litany of excuses that so often come from drug addicts to 

why they are not doing what they are supposed to do. 

Senator MCCAIN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. GODDARD. Thank you, Senator. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Thank you, Senator McCain. Senator Kyl. 

Senator KYL. I think that the governor needs to get to the Navajo 

Nation, and, therefore, instead of just taking my full round, let me 

just make a point, and, governor, if you want to respond to this, 

fine. 

Your predecessor was very supportive of enhancing our ports of 

entry, you mentioned that. I understand there is some money in 

the budget now for the Mariposa Port of Entry. One thing I think 

we need to do, comment on this if you want, is that we need to get 

the Mexican government to do the same, that is to say it does not 

do any good to have a great highway and port of entry on our side 

if the Mexican highway does not match up with that. So, that is 

one thing that we need to do, and, obviously, anything we can do 

to enhance trade not only helps us, but helps Mexico, as well. 

If you want to make a comment, fine, otherwise, I will quickly 

go to the—— 

Governor BREWER. Absolutely, Senator Kyl. I think that we do 

need to address that issue with the governor of Sonora and that we 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER
64 

do enhance the border crossings on both ways. Certainly in regard 

to the gun trafficking going south, I think that they, too, need to 

step it up and certainly do their end of the job as we are trying 

to attempt to do up here. 

I would like to mention at this time, if I could, that I realize how 

important the issue is, and I am very sympathetic to the concerns 

of what is going back into Mexico, but the bottom line is I always 

remain very concerned when I hear Washington start discussing 

gun control measures, and, frankly, as we go down this path, I 

again want to mention that these other issues that we are facing 

here in Arizona, I do not want to take the issue away again, Mr. 

Chairman, of securing our borders, and the bottom line is that 

stopping the flow of guns into Mexico won’t stop the Mexican cartels, if you will, from obtaining guns elsewhere. Venezuela and 

other countries have large factories that are making guns, and I 

am sure with their innovative abilities that they would get them. 

I do not believe that they are all coming from the United States. 

Senator KYL. Attorney General Goddard, I just want to clarify 

one thing. There has been a lot of anecdotal evidence about the 

kind of violence that is occurring here in the United States. A lot 

of it is one drug cartel against another. 

In other words, that in terms of the murders, for example, or assaults, a lot of that is what we refer to as the bad guys on the bad 

guys. Is that the case with kidnappings, as well, however? 

Mr. GODDARD. Mr. Chairman and Senator Kyl, and any experts 

behind me, Chief Harris, my understanding is that most of the 

kidnappings are gang-on-gang activities. Where the general population gets involved is where they make a mistake, where they take 

down a house or a home invasion, where it is not the person that 

they intended. 

Senator KYL. Well, it is gang-on-gang, but the people who are 

being kidnapped are frequently innocent in the sense they may be 

illegal immigrants, but they have not committed crimes. 

Mr. GODDARD. Senator, let me get out on a limb here—very 

often, the people who are kidnapped are under investigation by the 

police at the same time. The victims are often perpetrators in another context. So, they are not less of a victim because of that, but, 

very often, they are running a drop house themselves when they 

are kidnapped. That does not make them exactly simon-pure, and 

that is one of the reasons, as you pointed out earlier, that the reporting of these crimes is often, let us say, less than prompt if it 

happens at all. 

Senator KYL. I understand. I presume it may come through the 

Judiciary Committee on this financial instrument issue, and we 

will want to work with you on that to make sure that we can try 

to accomplish what Senator McCain was talking about. 

Mr. GODDARD. Thank you, Senator. It is just something we have 

done in Arizona pretty much on our own, but we have a lot of expertise that hopefully we can share with the Treasury and the IRS 

and some of the other agencies that could really help take a bite 

out of this problem. 

Senator KYL. And, yet, even with your success of something like $17 million, when you compare that with the total, obviously, you 

are frustrated that it cannot be a whole lot more than—— 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER
65 

1The prepared statement of Mayor Gordon appears in the Appendix on page 209. 

Senator MCCAIN. It sounds like a bit, Senator, but it is a drop 

in the bucket. All it has done, and this is a tribute to the cartels’ 

flexibility and opportunism, is simply moved them across the border. They wire the funds to Northern Mexico today, and they will 

make a phone call in Arizona. We are still in court fighting that 

issue as to whether we can, in fact, seize the records from the 

Northern Mexico money transmitters. I believe we can under our 

U.S. law, and I believe, hopefully, the Arizona Supreme Court will 

free us to do that in the future. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Thanks very much, Senator Kyl, and 

thank both of you, Governor Brewer and Attorney General Goddard, for both highlighting the impact of the Mexican drug cartels 

on Arizona, but also giving us some very specific and practical 

steps that we can take in law and in financing to assist you in 

what you’re doing to assist us to diminish this problem. 

I will just say parenthetically that I appreciate, Attorney General 

Goddard, your thought that we have to do a better job at monitoring and imposing some kind of control of southward traffic from 

here. We also, I think, have to ask and assist the Mexican government in doing a better job at monitoring traffic coming into Mexico 

from here, the right to be concerned about the flow of weapons, for 

instance, in if that is a priority, we can not just stop that from 

here, that has to be done on their side of the border, as well. 

We look forward to keeping in touch with both of you; we thank 

you for your time, for your service, for your testimony this morning. 

Thank you very much. 

Governor BREWER. Thank you. 

Mr. GODDARD. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and Senators. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. We will now call on the second panel, 

which we are honored to have a distinguished group of local officials and the Hon. Phil Gordon, Mayor of the city of Phoenix, the 

Hon. Octavio Garcia-Von Borstel, Mayor of the city of Nogales, and 

the Hon. Ned Norris, Chairman of the Tohono O’odham Nation. We 

thank you, all, for being here, and being patient as we heard the 

first panel. 

What we need you to help us understand in real terms what the 

impact of the Mexican drug cartels has been on your communities 

and what we can do to help you diminish that negative impact. 

Mayor Gordon, good morning, and we will start with you. 

STATEMENT OF HON. PHIL GORDON,1 MAYOR, CITY OF 

PHOENIX, ARIZONA 

Mayor GORDON. Good morning, Mr. Chairman. Thank you very 

much, Senator Kyl and Senator McCain, for being here in the city 

of Phoenix. We are honored to host this important and critical 

Committee meeting in the fifth largest city in the United States, 

dealing with one of the largest issues we face. 

Last month, as I believe you are aware, Mr. Chairman and Senators, I was invited to Washington, DC, to offer testimony before 

a House Subcommittee on this very topic. I went then, and I come 

here now to discuss an issue which we all have agreed must urgently be discussed, debated, addressed, and resolved. 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER
66 

There can be no doubt, in my opinion, that a crisis exists at our 

border with Mexico. And for reasons ranging from a historically 

bad economy and corruption at many levels of government and law 

enforcement on the Mexican side of the border, to various degrees 

of inattention on our own side of the border, to the border itself, 

which is vast and porous, Phoenix finds itself at the center of the 

perfect storm—a storm that is growing increasingly violent, threatening, and resource-consuming. Homeland security, Senators, includes, as you are aware, hometown security, and that is especially 

true in Phoenix, Arizona, today. 

Senators, I know that a number of your colleagues sitting 2,000 

miles away from Arizona envision a border similar to what you find 

between El Paso and Juarez, or San Diego and Tijuana—a road in, 

a road out, with a railroad-type crossing to control the flow of arms 

and people. But the Arizona-Mexico border, as you are aware, is 

not like that. It is 370 miles long, and hundreds and hundreds of 

square miles in area. It is hot, rugged, and has nooks and crannies, 

ravines and ridges, that facilitate covert movement. There is no 

‘‘Great Wall of Phoenix’’ to separate us from that imaginary border. 

And I promise you, what happens at the border does not stay at 

the border but comes across here. And that is why we are all involved so deeply. 

But what happens in Phoenix does not stay here either. The 

criminals, as you have heard from the Attorney General, continue 

on to all parts of our country—Washington, Oregon, Iowa, Kansas, 

Maine, and Connecticut. We are just a gateway for their cargo of 

drugs and people to come into the United States—and for money 

to go into Mexico and drugs to come into the United States. 

That is one of the reasons I am feeling it is so critically important for you to be here today. This is not simply a Phoenix solution 

or an Arizona solution. It is a national problem requiring a national solution. We do need more funding. I specifically ask you to 

continue funding our partnerships with Immigration and Customs 

Enforcement (ICE), DEA, FBI, and ATF. We do need continued 

funding to go after the ‘‘worst of the worst.’’ We do need to continue 

funding to cut the drugs and the violence off at the border. We do 

need continued funding to help and protect our own law enforcement personnel. 

And even though the most violent spillover has not yet reached 

Phoenix, the perception outside Arizona is very different. And that 

perception, if left unchecked, will start impacting the people who 

want to visit our State and this city—the ones who want to move 

to Phoenix, the businesses that want to relocate to Phoenix, and 

anyone who wants to invest in Phoenix or the State. And that will 

directly impact our economy, which impacts our revenue stream, 

which impacts our ability to expand the public safety efforts that 

are necessary, not just to the city of Phoenix and the State of Arizona, but the Nation. 

We do really have a dichotomy here, Senators. Our crime in 

Phoenix and in most incorporated cities in the valley is down significantly from last year in every category—violence and property. 

And that is from last year where it was down last year. So 2 years 

straight in a row. 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER
67 

1The photograph referenced by Mr. Gordon appears in the Appendix on page 221. 

Our cities have their priorities straight. They are going after the 

violent criminals, the syndication, and the repeat offenders. We 

know that the first order is to maintain order and safety, and that 

is why we plead with you and your colleagues in the Senate, and 

the House, to continue funding the Federal agencies that we have 

successfully partnered with. 

We need new funding for the Border Patrol. The money and the 

agents that have been allocated are not significant, nor sufficient, 

with the size of the border we have. U.S. Marshals, DEA, FBI, 

ATF, ICE, and yes, postal agents—everyone can go after dangerous 

felons by serving them the warrants that already have their names 

on them, instead of letting them collect dust sitting in a closet. All 

of our agencies are involved. 

As you might suspect, the cost of Phoenix border-related crime 

is staggering and far beyond what most municipalities in this country are required to bear. It is the cost of intelligence, the cost of 

equipment, the cost of hiring new officers, the cost of overtime, the 

cost of undercover operations that continue for months and years, 

the ongoing surveillance operations. In these challenging economic 

times we must be particularly sensitive to the manner in which our 

increasingly scarce resources are used. And that is why we go after 

the ‘‘worst of the worst’’ in a quick response. 

As you heard, people are being tortured. People are being kidnapped almost every night. Last year, the average was one a night. 

Phoenix police were called out to rescue one variation of the same 

story—‘‘My wife is being held in a Phoenix drop house and they are 

torturing, raping, assaulting, or threatening to kill her if we do not 

pay thousands of dollars more.’’ The response to that kind of call 

is incredibly labor intensive. More than 60 officers a night are diverted from other operations to go rescue individuals, sometimes 

innocent, undocumented aliens that have done nothing other than 

to come across the border illegally or bad guys on bad guys. 

And I will show you an example of each. The individual to whom 

you are closest is a bad guy that was tortured by another one.1

The overtime hours are staggering; the personal resources, as I 

said, diverted. I do not know if time permits. I can give you specific 

operations that have been so successful—— 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Go ahead and take a few minutes. 

Mayor GORDON. Operation Blank Check: Again, a joint operation 

with the Federal partners I identified—led to the felony indictments of 183 individuals this last year alone. Twenty-two different 

gangs were identified and taken out, totaling more than $3 million 

in money obtained also. 

Operation En Fuego: Last year, again, alone was responsible for 

the break-up of a Phoenix-based smuggling organization from the 

syndicate south of the border, indicted 35 individuals on felony 

charges that related, as the Attorney General said, to the human 

smuggling of more than 10,000 individuals a year for at least 3 

years. 

Operation Tumbleweed: Disrupted and stopped the illegal activities of 20 different organizations by following the money trail. Drug 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER
68 

smuggling, human smuggling, money laundering were significantly 

impacted. 

Additionally, we shut down two of the largest syndicates in the 

Nation that dealt with the tragedy of human smuggling. Each year, 

15,000 people were brought into the United States through Phoenix 

to the rest of the country; $30 million a year went the other way. 

That business is now closed. 

We are also a member of the FBI Violent Street Gang Task 

Force, which has resulted in more than 300 felony arrests of felon 

illegal immigrants arrested in the past year alone. 

The Phoenix Police Department has a very successful and innovative program, which we recommend across the country, where we 

embedded criminal ICE agents on a full-time basis for the last 3 

years in our police department. That is where their desks are. 

Their presence and participation in the office and on the street is 

invaluable. They have access to the Federal databases. They allow 

us to not only rescue people that would be killed, but also to go 

after the syndications and identify individuals more quickly. 

When this Nation was founded, no one ever conceived or imagined that immigration enforcement was an issue that would ever 

fall to mayors and local police departments. But here we are. Not 

only are we being forced to step up our immigration efforts, but we 

have also an increased burden when it comes to gun crimes and 

white collar crimes connected to illegal immigration formerly handled at the Federal level due to September 11, 2001. 

You have seen the pictures from Mexico. You have seen what 

their criminal syndicates do to good Mexican police officers and 

honest Mexican politicians. And they do not respect our border, and 

they do not respect our police. 

In conclusion, let me say that the extreme violence, including the 

assassination of officers and government officials we are seeing on 

the Mexican side of the border, has not yet spilled over to the 

American side. Even the kidnappings and the shootings that have 

spilled over in an effort to control the human drug and gun trafficking operations in Arizona are almost exclusively, as Senator Kyl 

said, ‘‘bad guys on bad guys’’. 

But make no mistake. Related violent criminal activity—shootings, kidnappings, home invasions, rape and torture—have spilled 

over and occur every day and are affecting American citizens and 

legal residents. The three of you know her, Julie Erfle, a police 

widow and her two young sons who will never see their husband 

and dad again—a young hero who was gunned down by an illegal 

immigrant smuggled back into our country having already been 

convicted and deported. 

Senators, without increased funding, the Phoenix Police Department and your Federal agencies here, and more Federal agents on 

the ground in the city, as well as at the border—that spillover violence will increase and the victim pool will expand and touch law 

abiding American citizens. And that is a circle that I know we all 

want broken. 

Thank you very much for your time. And I am here afterwards 

to answer any questions you may have. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Thank you, Mayor. Thanks for the warning at the end, which I believe is stark but well taken. 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER
69 

1The prepared statement of Mayor Garcia-Von Borstel appears in the Appendix on page 222. 

Next, Mayor Octavio Garcia-Von Borstel. Thank you for being 

here this morning. 

STATEMENT OF HON. OCTAVIO GARCIA-VON BORSTEL,1

MAYOR, CITY OF NOGALES, ARIZONA 

Mayor GARCIA-VON BORSTEL. Thank you. Good morning, Chairman Lieberman, Senator McCain, and Senator Kyl. 

I appreciate the opportunity to appear before you today to discuss ‘‘Southern Border Violence: State and Local Perspectives’’. I 

want to commend Senator McCain for his personal attention on the 

border and personal visits in meeting with local movements. 

We are all aware of the international situation as it relates to 

the drug cartel violence that has been occurring along the Southwest Border. What I would like to address this Committee with are 

the effects of the border violence in our community of Nogales, Arizona. 

Since May 2007, the city of Nogales, Arizona, has been a witness 

to several highly reported brutal slayings that are occurring between drug cartels in our sister city of Nogales, Sonora, Mexico. 

The Department of National Drug Intelligence Center has identified the Mexican drug trafficking organizations as the greatest organized crime threat facing the United States today. 

Although in our neighboring city the violence committed against 

innocent parties and tourism is very rare, in October 2008, the 

State Department issued a travel advisory mentioning the city of 

Nogales, Sonora, Mexico. This advisory has had an effect on the 

economy of the city of Nogales. We are experiencing longer waits 

on the border crossings and a decline in tourism. 

Nogales, Arizona, is on the frontlines in this fight against drugs. 

We see continued record high tonnage of drug seizures, cash, and 

weapons—all results of this effort between Federal, State, and local 

identities working in conjunction. 

Nogales is a thriving, safe community that has always put the 

safety of our citizens and tourists on the top of our priorities. 

Nogales reported zero drug-related homicides in 2008, and what we 

call ‘‘small crime’’ such as vandalism and shoplifting were at a minimum. 

The principal effect of border violence in my community of 

Nogales, Arizona, are as follows: 

The drug trafficking has reached a point where this activity is 

even occurring in our sewer system. Last week alone, numerous 

loads of marijuana were intentionally channeled through our International Outfall Interceptor (IOI), which is the main sewer line 

flowing through Nogales, Arizona. This shows the length to which 

drug traffickers have resorted in getting the product into this country. What is normally a drug trafficking problem has now become 

an infrastructure problem because these actions can damage a 

sewer line infrastructure to the tune of millions of dollars. 

Locally, we cannot go more than a few months without discovering another drug channel under the border into Nogales, Arizona. 

These tunnels cause great damage to the structural integrity of our 

streets and buildings. 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER
70 

The wait times at our port of entry continue to be considerable. 

It is our understanding that a great portion of these wait times are 

due to heightened security at our border. While this ensures our 

national safety, the burden of longer wait times for commercial and 

pedestrian entry, which is frequently exceeding 1 to 2 hours, falls 

on the border cities. We estimate that approximately 75 percent of 

people in these lines at the border are coming to shop in the United 

States. When the wait times exceed 1 or 2 more hours, potential 

visitors and customers are discouraged from coming into the 

United States to buy our products. This affects Nogales, Tucson, 

Phoenix, and the rest of the State of Arizona. 

State and national media reports discourage people from other 

parts of the United States from coming to Ambos Nogales. Tourism—tourists used to come and lodge in Nogales, Arizona, and shop 

and dine in Nogales, Sonora. That is not happening much anymore. 

Whether merited or not, the perception alone of increased violence 

in Nogales, Sonora, has greatly reduced the amount of business 

and tourist visitors to Ambos Nogales. This reduction in business 

and tourism has had a detrimental effect in our community, which 

damages commerce, tourism, and ultimately reduces our precious 

sales tax, which is the main source of revenue in Nogales, Arizona. 

Sixty percent of our sales tax comes from Mexico. 

The factors not only affect existing business, but also greatly diminishes new business prospectives from our border town. Produce, 

the maquiladora industry, and other border operations which might 

have been thinking of relocating to Ambos Nogales are now discouraged to do so because of the fear of increased violence along 

the border. 

Due to the growing violence in Mexico, our local police departments are forced to spend a great amount of time assisting Federal 

law enforcement agencies. While the effects on this side of the border are indirect, they directly affect our economy and deplete our 

budgetary resources that are crucial to border cities during difficult 

economic times. 

For instance, our police and fire departments’ levels of response 

to incidence at the ports of entry have greatly increased. From January 2008, the police department responded to 34 calls, and in January 2009, they have responded to 6,800 calls at the port of entry. 

Our citizens living in close proximity to the International Boundary Line are constantly deprived of a reasonable night rest due to 

the noise and disruptive activities, such as emergency vehicles, surveillance aircraft, high capacity floodlights, emergency sirens, etc. 

The city of Nogales is therefore requesting your assistance in seeing that greater resources are allocated to combating the potential 

spillover effect of the drug war in Mexico, as well as increased CBP 

manpower to properly staff and operate the largest port of entry in 

Arizona. If we can maintain the security and operation of the 

Mariposa and DeConcini ports of entry in Nogales, all of Arizona, 

as well as this country, will benefit. 

The sad irony is that Nogales, Arizona, remains one of the safest 

cities in the country despite the violence, drug and human trafficking that surrounds us. 

Thank you for the opportunity to testify here today. By continuing to work together we can develop new ideas to refresh and 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER
71 

1The prepared statement of Mr. Norris appears in the Appendix on page 224. 

strategies that can rise to the current challenge. I will be happy to 

answer any questions you may have. Thank you. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Thank you, Mayor. You pointed out, and 

Mayor Gordon did the same, that there is a complicated picture 

here. That while the Mexican drug cartels have had an obvious impact on public safety, overall, some of the communities here, 

thanks to the leadership and work of the law enforcement have actually seen declining rates of violent crimes. So that insofar as people living here form an attitude about crime, or even people intending to visit or come here, generally speaking, these are still very 

safe communities to be in. 

Mr. Norris, thanks for giving us your time this morning, and we 

look forward to your testimony now. 

STATEMENT OF HON. NED NORRIS JR.,1 CHAIRMAN, TOHONO 

O’ODHAM NATION 

Mr. NORRIS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Senator McCain, and 

Senator Kyl. The Tohono O’odham Nation is honored to be here at 

the table with you to share our thoughts about the border violence 

and the impact that activity has had on the Tohono O’odham Nation. 

Border-related crimes, such as illegal immigrant and drug trafficking, robberies, sexual assaults, stolen vehicles, and property 

crimes have an impact not only on our law enforcement and other 

resources, but also affects the quality of life of our people and diminishes our efforts to maintain our culture and traditions. 

The Tohono O’odham Nation has 78 law enforcement officers; 

about 46 are assigned field operations or patrol duties. Although 

border crossings have decreased from a high of about 1,500 a day 

from 2005/2006 to about 400 to 450 a day, these numbers remain 

significant because of the increase of drug smuggling. Customs and 

Border Protection data show that about 10 percent of the crossers 

are criminal aliens with histories of rape, assaults, drug and 

human smuggling, and murder. So, there are about 40 to 50 felons 

entering the Tohono O’odham Nation on a daily basis, or about 

1,500 a month. 

Tohono O’odham Police investigate an average of 70 deaths a 

year of illegal immigrants that die attempting to cross Tohono 

O’odham Nation. They die from exposure or injury. About 3 percent 

were murdered by other illegal immigrants robbing them of their 

drugs and other human cargo. 

From years 2004 to 2008, the Tohono O’odham Nation Police Department seized 290,885 pounds of marijuana, an average of 58,000 

pounds a year. For year 2009, Tohono O’odham Police Department 

is expected to exceed this average by about 27 percent, or approximately 79,236 pounds. 

Additionally, there were 877 pounds of cocaine seized. The estimated street value of all the drugs seized is $221,633,000. These 

numbers do not indicate data from Customs and Border Patrol or 

Immigration and Customs Enforcement, who seized about 400,000 

pounds in fiscal year 2007. 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER
72 

Information indicates that there are two Mexican Cartels operating within the Tohono O’odham Nation: (1) the Sinaloa Cartel, 

and (2) the Tijuana Cartel. Both are vying for control of the Tohono 

O’odham Nation, particularly the western side. They see the porous 

nature of our border, despite the construction of vehicle barriers. 

The barriers do not stop foot traffic. Because the southern side of 

the border is rural desert area with little, if any, law enforcement 

presence, they use the area as staging areas to smuggle drugs and 

illegal immigrants. 

Because of the vehicle barriers, they can no longer drive north 

from the Mexican side of the border, so they shifted their tactics 

to stealing vehicles from the Phoenix metro area. They then drive 

the stolen vehicles to sites on the Tohono O’odham Nation where 

the drugs and/or human cargo are stored or waiting. They then 

transport the cargo north off the Tohono O’odham Nation. Because 

the current practice of Customs and Border Patrol is to not check 

southbound vehicles, this has been, thus far, a successful strategy 

for the cartels thus far. 

The cartels are developing formal relationships with Tohono 

O’odham Nation members to drive vehicles loaded with hundreds 

of pounds of drugs and/or illegal immigrants to designated locations off the Tohono O’odham Nation. What they do is a simple 

process of offering $700 to $5,000, depending on the type of load, 

to a Tribal member to either drive the load or store the drugs at 

their home or a shed. 

More and more, the Tohono O’odham Nation’s members are getting involved in the illegal operations. As little as 5 years ago there 

were just a few Tribal members involved in the illegal operations. 

As indicated, about 30 percent of the total Federal prosecutions for 

drug smuggling and/or transport of illegal immigrants are Tribal 

members. In the same period of time there were 145 drug possession/transport cases prosecuted in Tribal Court. 

Lack of interoperability, radio and cell phone—there is about 30 

percent of the Tohono O’odham Nation that lacks adequate radio 

and cell phone communication. This handicaps our efforts and presents an officer and public safety concern. Adding to this is the inability to communicate directly with our Federal partners—Customs and Border Patrol, and Immigration and Customs Enforcement. 

In conclusion, I would like to emphasize that should this type of 

activity occur in any town or city in the United States, it would be 

considered a crisis. The Tohono O’odham Nation is in the midst of 

this crisis, and our way of life and culture and traditions are 

changing every day. 

This crime and violence does not end at the Tohono O’odham Nation. The drugs and criminals transporting the drugs and human 

cargo are headed to cities and towns throughout the United States. 

The victims of kidnapping that the city of Phoenix has been experiencing have likely traveled through the Tohono O’odham Nation. 

We need help to protect not only our community but also to protect 

our neighbors, the State of Arizona, and the United States of America. I urge you to do whatever you can to help us protect our homeland. 

Thank you, Mr. Chairman and Members of the Committee. 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER
73 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Thank you very much, Mr. Norris, for a 

very strong statement. 

Let me begin the questioning. Mayor Gordon, you talked—and I 

think very compellingly—about the cost of border-related crimes to 

Phoenix being staggering—something we do not think about. And 

let me just make sure I understand you. You said that 60 officers 

a night are involved—does that mean they spend most of the night 

or they are responding to something that you would consider a border-related crime every night? 

Mayor GORDON. Mr. Chairman—and again, noting that Chief 

Harris will be on the next panel—the police operations are ongoing 

now in terms of both going after drop houses. These are two examples. Nightly—and Senator McCain actually also put a face on it— 

in fact, late last night, our police were involved and rescued a 

group of immigrants that were being held. One of the smugglers 

shot at the police officer from above. Fortunately, he missed or at 

least he was gone—this was last night alone. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. The smuggler was holding the illegal immigrants? 

Mayor GORDON. Yes, sir. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Just for the record, why was he holding 

them? 

Mayor GORDON. For smuggling, extortion, and transportation. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Because they had not paid him, or he was 

not going to let them go until they paid him more? 

Mayor GORDON. The typical—almost every occurrence now is 

that individuals will pay X-dollars to get them to the border, and 

the transportation system related to the cartels takes them 

through the desert—roads or no roads—over fences with the truckloading equipment—to the Phoenix metro area where they are held 

in drop houses. At that point, the holders of the homes then start 

to extort additional monies from the occupants and then call their 

relatives to say either pay us X-dollars more or we will torture and 

rape them. 

The one I am referring to last night, an innocent victim, a 14- 

year-old girl, was raped. The mother was raped also. But a 14-yearold girl, no matter what her nationality, legal status, is not—— 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. In other words, how is this related? 

Mayor GORDON. Last night, officers came across a home. There 

were a number of individuals in there being held against their 

will—very similar to the picture you see in the middle or on the 

end—waiting for transportation on one hand to other parts of the 

country to go to work. And on the other hand, being held to get 

more money from what they originally paid to get to the metro 

area to then go to Iowa or Connecticut. 

The individuals, part of the smuggling syndication, were discovered at the premises by the police. It was a two-story apartment, 

as I understood. One of those smugglers raised his gun to shoot at 

a police officer down below. Fortunately, the Phoenix police officer 

shot back and was safe. So, that violence—that went on last night. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. And those rapes, who were those women? 

Mayor GORDON. They were immigrants being held. But the cost 

on those operations are ongoing. They may be one night; they may 

be weekly. Those calls from Seattle to internationally across the 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER
74 

world. And again, the police are then diverting resources over time. 

These are officers involved in these operations that just cannot be 

pulled off the street. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Let me ask you briefly—I am going to ask 

your two colleagues—of the likelihood that additional funding 

would come to State and local governments for Mexican drug cartel-related violence through existing programs. It is not definitely 

so, but it is always a likelihood. Now, which of the existing programs are helping you most and, therefore, would you like to see 

more funding put into as part of supplemental funding? 

Mayor GORDON. Mr. Chairman and Senators, I think the operations that I described—those are partnerships. Whether the 

money goes directly to the Federal agencies for those partnerships, 

to the Department of Safety (DPS) directly, or to the city of Phoenix, which tends to have the most officers involved—for those specific operations—there is not a delay. The results are proven, all 

across the board for a couple of years. I went to D.C. to testify to 

get the Federal agencies more. That would be the best single dollars you could use. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. OK. Mayor. 

Mayor GARCIA-VON BORSTEL. Mr. Chairman, thank you. Although I recognize that we are working in a partnership with all 

agencies, the trend seems to be that local agencies seem to be supporting Federal agencies, such as CBP, because of their lack of 

funding and agents at the border. So, to me it makes sense to certainly support CBP in getting more qualified border agents at the 

border. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Would that include beefing up and monitoring our inspections southward? 

Mayor GARCIA-VON BORSTEL. Correct. That would make a lot of 

sense. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Mr. Norris. 

Mr. NORRIS. Mr. Chairman, Members of the Committee, the U.S. 

Customs and Border Protection is one of the primary agencies that 

we are working with. Our Tribal Police Department, as well as the 

entity that I am sure the Committee is familiar with—the Shadow 

Wolves, who are very active out there need assistance in funding 

themselves to continue their operations on our Tohono O’odham 

Nation. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Right. It is very interesting. That is not 

the answer I expected, but it is significant that you gave it. 

Senator McCain. 

Senator MCCAIN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mayor Gordon, with 

the tremendous difficulties as associated with the economy, you 

have more foreclosures. Right? 

Mayor GORDON. Yes, sir. 

Senator MCCAIN. So you have more boarded up homes. So you 

have more places for these people to go in and locate. What do we 

do about that? 

Mayor GORDON. Mr. Chairman and Senator McCain, first, let me 

note that almost all the drug drop houses that are discovered on 

a daily basis are not boarded up. They are operational. This one 

is in a very affluent neighborhood, and locations are not discriminatory in terms of lower socioeconomic or higher. They are 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER
75 

throughout the entire valley. It is keeping a low presence, and 

sometimes the highest areas are done. 

The boarded up homes are a significant issue as it relates to 

street crime, gang members, drug dealing, because transients—— 

Senator MCCAIN. But these people have no trouble finding anywhere to locate? 

Mayor GORDON. These people have no trouble, and money is not 

an issue in terms of renting homes that may be owned by out-ofstate corporations or individuals or locally. 

And to answer your question directly, with respect to the money 

that the Federal Government, your body, and the House and Administration has allocated from the last Administration, is already 

put to use at the city of Phoenix in terms of acquiring these 

boarded-up homes. There is a percentage that cannot be saved, demolished. The others rehabbed and then sold to single owner-occupied families. So, we have found the best way to use the Federal 

money is actually to bridge the gap instead of trying to become a 

rental agency. 

Senator MCCAIN. Thank you very much, Mayor Gordon. 

But crime overall has gone down, but crime associated with this 

is going to continue. Would you say it is your major challenge besides the overall economy? 

Mayor GORDON. Mr. Chairman, and Senator McCain. Absolutely. 

And that point, because it really is a dichotomy, crime is down significantly in the city of Phoenix. Homicide, as an example, is down 

by over 25 percent from last year alone. Having said that, 225 or 

250 homicides a year—the Chief can correct me—it is either all bad 

guys and bad guys, these syndicates, or unfortunately, probably related a small percentage to domestic violence. 

Those officers that are being diverted to keep this spillover violence from affecting our daily lives, and these things are coming at 

a significant cost as I described over time to the families. The undercover operations—these officers are undercover a long time and 

cannot be replaced on a rotating basis. Our public safety budget is 

now 74 percent of our operating budget. Police and fire—the vast 

majority of that is police, and that is growing as the demand is 

needed to stay equal to keep that crime going down. But that is 

pulling officers now off the street. 

We, for the first time in our history, Senator, have had to reduce 

the Public Safety budget, especially since I have been mayor. The 

growth of that—we are still hiring but we do not have the luxury 

to keep adding to the Federal task forces that have been so successful. 

Senator MCCAIN. Mayor Garcia-Von Borstel, now they are moving drugs through the sewers. 

Mayor GARCIA-VON BORSTEL. That is right. 

Senator MCCAIN. And how often are you uncovering a tunnel? 

Mayor GARCIA-VON BORSTEL. Very often, it is very sad to see 

that all of our efforts are going towards the border and trying to 

be effective in eliminating drug trafficking and human trafficking. 

And it is sad to see that they keep finding and identifying ways 

to make sure that their product comes into our country illegally. 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER
76 

And so it is very sad to see in our community that although we 

are working diligently with our Federal and State governments, 

they continue to identify ways to smuggle their products. 

Senator MCCAIN. What kind of cooperation do you get from the 

city of Nogales, Sonora? 

Mayor GARCIA-VON BORSTEL. We work very diligently with them. 

There is a great wave of communication with them. But I think 

that it is bigger than their local government, as well. Both local 

governments working together I do not think is enough. 

Senator MCCAIN. What do you estimate the population of 

Nogales, Sonora, is? 

Mayor GARCIA-VON BORSTEL. I estimate it at 500,000. Half a million. 

Just on a personal note, Senator, talking about identifying abandoned homes. I live in a single-family home by myself, and so my 

house is abandoned during the day while I go to work. And so after 

I came home one day, I identified a red t-shirt hanging from a tree 

outside my house. And so I figured that was odd; I will get to it 

tomorrow morning. And nevertheless, the next morning I ran off to 

work again and came home for lunch and saw that there were illegal aliens at my house just hanging out and resting. Who knows 

for what. 

And so these people are very creative and just find ways to identify houses that are abandoned during the day. So I just thought 

I would share that with you because it was a personal experience 

that happened to me. And so it was that red shirt that was signaling other illegal aliens to say that is the house where we are 

hanging out today. 

Senator MCCAIN. Mr. Norris, it is good to see you again. Thank 

you for all your service to the Tohono O’odham Nation. 

It seems to me from your testimony that the border crossing, as 

you mention, has decreased from a high of about 1,500 a day in 

2005 and 2006 to about 400 to 450 a day. Is that because of the 

vehicle barriers? 

Mr. NORRIS. Mr. Chairman and Senator McCain, I think that it 

has a lot of factors. There has been a significant increase of Border 

Patrol agents on the Tohono O’odham Nation’s land. And so the 

ability to do their business on the Tohono O’odham Nation has decreased but also, because the vehicle barriers have had a significant impact on that, as well. 

But I think the fact is that there is always a continued effort on 

the Tohono O’odham Nation’s part to work cooperatively with the 

Border Patrol. And so we are hoping that our cooperation is going 

to be able to assist the Border Patrol and take into consideration 

the Tohono O’odham Nation’s interest in the fact that we have nine 

communities that continue to exist today in Mexico and about 

1,500 enrolled Tribal members in Mexico, as well. So, we have to 

have a cooperative working relationship with the Border Patrol in 

order for us to be able to address this issue. 

Senator MCCAIN. It seems to me your major concern here is the 

penetration of drugs into the young people of your Tohono O’odham 

Nation. 

Mr. NORRIS. Yes, sir. Not long ago I was talking to the former 

Chief of Police for the Tohono O’odham Nation, who shared with 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER
77 

me a situation where a 16-year-old female was offered $500,000 to 

drive a vehicle from this point to that point. 

And obviously, that is just one of several examples of how some 

of our people are bought into the illegal activity of drug smuggling 

and sale in that, if you wave $500,000 in front of a 16-year-old’s 

face, or anybody for that matter, to just drive this vehicle from this 

point to that point, I think it is extremely enticing for them to—— 

Senator MCCAIN. Is drug addiction up amongst Tribal members? 

Mr. NORRIS. I think that my service to my Tohono O’odham Nation goes back 32 years. I spent 14 years as a non-attorney tribal 

judge, and I can remember in the late 1970s, early 1980s when the 

choice of drug was alcohol. That graduated to marijuana. Over the 

years that graduated to cocaine. Over the years that has graduated 

to methamphetamine. 

So I think that slowly there is an increase in the types of drugs 

that members of the Tohono O’odham Nation use and that we are 

seeing come across our Tohono O’odham Nation’s borders. 

Senator MCCAIN. I have had the great pleasure of visiting you 

on numerous occasions. The Tohono O’odham Tribe has been on the 

frontline and they have cooperated with State, local, and Federal 

officials. I thank you for that, Mr. Norris. And I know you need additional help, and it seems to me that we have probably not given 

you nearly what you need. 

Mr. NORRIS. I appreciate that Senator. Thank you. 

Senator MCCAIN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Thank you, Senator McCain. Senator Kyl. 

Senator KYL. Let me begin by noting that Mayor Gordon mentioned the need for more U.S. Marshals to be able to serve the warrants on the felons and so on. 

Just to make the point again that it is not just more Border Patrol agents or the arresting officers, but the people all up and down 

the line. So I appreciate you mentioning that. 

I need to clarify something—I will ask the chief this, as well— 

but I am a little bit dubious of the notion that all the violence is, 

as you said, almost exclusively bad guys on bad guys. And I did not 

say that. I asked the question about it to try to differentiate between the kind of case that you described—the innocent girl who 

gets raped. She is not a bad guy. Yes, she may have crossed the 

border illegally, but that is it. 

And so I do really want to bore down a little bit more on this 

notion that it is just bad guys on bad guys. There are a lot of relatively innocent people—innocent, certainly, in terms of the kind of 

crimes that are committed against them that are caught up in all 

of this. And I know you agree with that because you cited the example of it. 

Any further comment you would like to make on that is appreciated. But, there can be kind of a sense that, well, if it is just bad 

guys on bad guys, let them kill each other. 

You make two points about that, Mayor Gordon. First, it diverts 

a whole lot of your resources that should be devoted to protecting 

the rest of us. And second, there are a lot of cases in which innocent people are taken advantage of. If you would like to comment 

any further on that you are welcome to. 

Mayor GORDON. Mr. Chairman and Senator McCain, thank you. 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER
78 

I was too loose with my words, but I think you adequately described it. 

First of all, any crime—I have said in so many public speeches— 

is too much crime. Second, there are always innocent victims, including those that are engaged in criminal activities with their 

families. 

With respect to specifically, my intent was to say that 

anecdotally—because I do not think anybody could drill down deep 

enough—the vast majority of violent crime is related to drug smuggling, use of drugs, and now human smuggling and gun smuggling. 

And as you will hear from the chief—you have heard from the Federal agencies—these cartels and syndicates, they are now one in 

terms of drugs, people, guns, and money. So it is one continuous 

operation. 

The individual closest to you was—I will describe, as the chief 

would say—a bad guy. But you can see he was tortured. That is 

how the police found them as they were untying them—anyone 

that is torturing and willing to kill anyone is not going to hesitate 

to kill individuals. We have had police officers that have been shot 

at, killed. They are certainly innocent. 

Senator KYL. One of the key points, with only 5 minutes here, 

let me quickly get to this point. In order to get resources in Washington, we cannot sugarcoat. And I appreciate that the job of mayors is to say we have wonderful, safe cities and so on. But it does 

not argue against that to recognize that we have a problem that 

we need help with. And you have both made the point that for the 

most part the citizens of the cities are safe. So that should not be 

a reason for people not to come to Nogales or to Phoenix. 

But by the same token, resources are being diverted in both 

cases, and there is a threat to the citizens, in addition to which we 

do not want crime to occur against anybody and our citizens. So I 

am just making the point that—just, for example, you talked about 

the reporting of statistics. I would not suggest that the numbers 

here are a result of the fact that Phoenix reports all of its murders, 

whereas some other cities may not. The reality is that, as was 

noted earlier by the Attorney General, a lot of the crime is not even 

reported because it is crime against illegal immigrants or against 

other bad guys. 

So, just a suggestion here, and to enable us to better do our job, 

be straightforward about what is occurring here and ask for help. 

And that will help us to make the case that our colleagues who 

have no idea of what is going on will be more likely to provide the 

assistance that we need. 

Mayor GORDON. Mr. Chairman and Senator Kyl, that has been 

my job for 3 years now, coming to Washington asking for that help. 

The numbers continue to go up. And in no means was my intent 

to say or to sugarcoat or not tell it. I think I have told it directly 

day in and day out. And the local officers—and Phoenix Police just 

to be specific—are doing an inordinate amount to maintain the status quo in gross numbers. 

But, again, these individuals that are involved are more heavily 

armed than police officers, with body armor, using sophisticated 

smuggling equipment and all other types of technology. They are 

better armed than a lot of the National Guard is, Senator. So, I 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER
79 

said, as you noted, it is not a question of if it is growing; it will 

continue to grow. And we are begging for more help. 

Senator KYL. You need to try to get that assistance. I, too, have 

enjoyed our various meetings about different kind of problems. It 

is so distressing, just heartbreaking, to hear the kind of stories 

that you are talking about—to bribe people on the reservation and 

it must be just heartbreaking for you, as well. 

The vehicle barriers you have noted have had some impact. I 

need to go back and look this up—but my recollection also is that 

there were some recommendations from the Department of Homeland Security with respect to foot traffic—fences to stop foot traffic, 

as well. What is the status of that? Is there any problem with that? 

I know there are some miles of fencing yet to be completed, but I 

am not familiar with the situation on the Tohono O’odham reservation. 

Mr. NORRIS. Mr. Chairman and Senator Kyl, as the Committee 

is well aware, the Tohono O’odham Nation’s leadership and legislative counsel supports the establishment of vehicle barriers on our 

Tohono O’odham Nation. 

We also supported and continue to support the efforts to establish the virtual fence on our Tohono O’odham Nation’s land. So, we 

also continue to support the establishment of beacon lights on our 

Tohono O’odham Nation’s lands. 

The Nation’s Legislative Council recently—about 2 months ago— 

passed a resolution that reaffirmed its commitment to establishing 

the vehicle barriers. And for those areas that have been omitted for 

some reason or another, the Tohono O’odham Nation wants the vehicle barrier project to be completed. And we will do whatever is 

necessary in our power to ensure that completion is—— 

Senator KYL. Do you oppose fencing for foot traffic? 

Mr. NORRIS. The opposition regarding fencing is that the Tohono 

O’odham Nation has gone on record to say that the Tohono 

O’odham Nation will not ever agree to a walled fence. And for the 

reasons that I stated earlier—we have nine villages that continue 

to exist in Mexico. We have 1,500 enrolled tribal citizens living in 

Mexico—not necessarily because they want to live in Mexico, but 

when the International Border was established without any consultation with the Tohono O’odham Nation or its people itself, that 

essentially cut that portion of the Tohono O’odham Nation off from 

the part that ended up in the United States. 

We will continue to work diligently with the U.S. Government to 

come up with an amicable way to address the concerns that we 

have and to ensure the protection of the United States of America, 

as well. 

Senator KYL. Well, I will just note—and I appreciate the problem, but I know the Customs and Border Patrol has tried to work 

out arrangements whereby the movement of tribal members across 

the border is facilitated with special cards and so on. 

And I will just note that since you, yourself, pointed out the 

problem of the foot traffic that is not stopped by the vehicle barriers even though they have obviously an impact—that it may be 

that we are going to have some kind of ability to stop the foot traffic, as well. And in some places, actual barriers have worked very 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER
80 

1The prepared statement of Mr. Harris appears in the Appendix on page 227. 

well. So that is something that we should probably continue to 

work on. 

Mr. NORRIS. Yes, Senator. 

Senator KYL. Thanks, Mr. Chairman. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Thank you, Senator Kyl. 

I want to thank this panel very much for excellent testimony 

which made it real for us. And there is this dichotomy, which we 

will explore with the next panel of law enforcers and my colleagues 

have stated it, that thanks to a lot of effort, generally, violent 

crimes are going down. But that does not mean that there is not 

a tremendous burden on local law enforcement, local municipalities, and the Tribal nations to deal with the violence that is from 

the Mexico drug cartels. 

And, of course, it would appear that as Mayor Gordon expressed 

at the beginning, this will grow more significant if we do not come 

together and push it back. So, your testimony has been very helpful. I am very pleased—as I said at the end of my questioning— 

that you have had this cooperative relationship with the Federal 

agencies, particularly as I heard you speak with Customs and Border Patrol. 

Thank you very much. 

Mr. NORRIS. Thank you. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. I will now call the third panel. Jack Harris is a Public Safety Manager for the city of Phoenix; Clarence 

Dupnik, the Sheriff of the County of Pima, Arizona; and Larry 

Dever, Sheriff of the County of Cochise, Arizona. 

Thank you very much for being with us. 

Chief Harris, obviously, we want to hear from you now about law 

enforcement at the local level and the impact that the Mexican 

drug cartels have begun to have as you have witnessed it. 

Obviously, there are some people in Washington who think we 

are overreacting here. I think you know that. So, your testimony 

will be very important. 

Chief Harris, welcome. You have been much referred to this 

morning. Now it is your time for your defense. 

STATEMENT OF JACK F. HARRIS,1 PUBLIC SAFETY MANAGER, 

CITY OF PHOENIX, ARIZONA 

Mr. HARRIS. I hope I can live up to the billing. 

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman and Senators of the panel. 

I will read my statement to begin with, and I am afraid I will be 

repeating some of the numbers that you have already heard. But 

I will try to put it into perspective in what we are facing at the 

local level, especially here with the Phoenix Police Department. 

As you heard, Phoenix does continue to be one of the safest major 

cities in the country—2008 numbers compared to 2007: Property 

crime is down by 8 percent; violent crime is down by 6 percent; 

homicides are down by 24 percent. As a member of Major City 

Chiefs—the 55 largest cities in the country—I can tell you that in 

bad economic times historically crime rates soar. And that is happening in most of the major cities across the country. 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER
81 

1The photographs submitted for the record by Mr. Gordon appear in the Appendix on pages 

218 through 221. 

But we have had the ability here and the good fortune to be able 

to help drive that crime rate down. However, as you have also 

heard, in 2007, there were 357 reported kidnappings in Phoenix 

and 317 home invasions. In 2008, there were 368 kidnappings and 

another 337 home invasions. This problem has garnered the attention of the world. 

Phoenix is, as you have heard, a transshipment point for illegal 

drugs and smuggled humans. Both come here before being shipped 

to other points throughout America. The majority of the victims of 

kidnappings and home invasions are involved directly or indirectly 

with the drug or human smuggling business. Regardless of their involvement in the crime, these victims are human beings, and first 

and foremost, we treat them as such. 

Many of the kidnapping victims, as you have heard, are being 

brought into Phoenix by smugglers known as ‘‘coyotes,’’ and each 

victim is paying in excess of $1,500 each to be brought into the 

country. Once here, the coyotes take them to drop houses where 

dozens of smuggled people are kept. Their shoes and clothes are 

often taken so that they can not escape. They are beaten and tortured while their loved ones listen on the telephone in horror as 

another $2,500 or more is being demanded from the kidnappers. 

The pictures that you saw up here earlier depict one of those 

drop houses where the humans who were sitting there had been 

smuggled.1 They were being held in a drop house, which was actually in a pretty decent neighborhood, but if you noticed in the picture, the windows were boarded up in the summer. You are well 

aware of what the temperatures are in Phoenix. They are held 

without food, they are held without water, and their clothes are 

taken away from them, and then they are tortured to get their 

loved ones to bring more money to the smugglers. 

Other coyotes try to ‘‘steal’’ the human cargo from the original 

coyotes. They then ask for more money before they will release or 

transport their prisoners. We have had shootouts on our highways 

where a vanload of people being smuggled are trying to be stolen 

by another group of coyotes and they opened fire in an attempt to 

steal the load. 

There have been other kidnappings, which sometimes start as a 

home invasion where the victims are the smugglers themselves. 

Groups often dressed, as you have heard, in police-type raid gear 

break into a home or a vehicle and kidnap the smugglers. These 

kidnappers know the smugglers or their family members and associates have the ability to come up with ransoms ranging from 

$30,000 to a million dollars or more. 

Oftentimes, the ransom demands include drugs, such as 100 

pounds of marijuana, or methamphetamine, or cocaine. The primary goal for investigators in these cases is to rescue the victims. 

But saving these lives, as you have also heard, is tremendously resource-intensive. We have had operations that go more than a week 

trying to locate these kidnapped people in a city of over 550 square 

miles. And we have put as many as 60 officers on one case. 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER
82 

And then when you look at the numbers that I started with in 

excess of 350 of each of those types of crimes, you can see how 

manpower-intensive this is. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Chief, how large is the Phoenix Police Department? 

Mr. HARRIS. We have approximately 3,600 sworn officers and another 1,100 support staff. And we are covering a 550 square mile 

area with a population of a little over a million and a half. We respond to about 750,000 dispatch calls per service per year. 

If you went out there on the street right now and added up every 

officer in this uniform, you would find maybe 250 officers covering 

that 550 square miles. 

The officers that I need to assign to combat the problem of border 

violence are a valuable resource that I have had to pull off of their 

regular duties throughout the department. Like other agencies, we 

do not have a pool of excess officers to draw from. However, we 

have been forced to do something, which is why we have participated with two other agencies in the creation of the Illegal Immigrant Prevention and Apprehension Coop Team (IIMPACT). 

Additionally, IU have authorized the department—or the development of the Phoenix Police Home Invasion and Kidnapping Enforcement (HIKE) Unit. We have great partnerships in both of 

these endeavors. 

IIMPACT is a partnership between the Phoenix Police Department, the Arizona Department of Public Safety, and the U.S. Bureau of Immigration and Customs Enforcement. This team deals 

specifically with the violence associated with human smuggling and 

illegal immigration. 

The HIKE team, which is one of the only ones like it in the country, is made up of supervisors and detectives from the Robbery, Assaults, and Document Crimes Units from within our own department. In addition, agents from the Bureau of Immigration and 

Customs Enforcement, the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives, and the Drug Enforcement Administration 

are part of the team. This team deals specifically with the 

kidnappings in Phoenix. 

Home invasions and kidnappings have had an impact on local 

gangs in Phoenix. Gang members have been recruited to participate in these crimes. In addition, they have learned of these crimes 

and copied them in an effort to get financial gain. To combat this 

problem, the Phoenix Police Department has partnered with the 

U.S. Federal Bureau of Investigation in the FBI Violent Street 

Gang Task Force. As the name implies, this team deals with gang 

violence, which is influenced by the border violence. 

I have submitted that portion of my statement to you. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. That will be printed in full in the record 

as everyone’s statements will be. 

Mr. HARRIS. But let me conclude by saying I know that you are 

here to ask what impact the border violence has had on our cities 

and our counties. And also, it is clear and we very much appreciate 

that you are asking what can you do from Washington to help us. 

I can tell you that financially we have applied for a number of 

grants under the stimulus, under the COPS program. We are askVerDate Nov 24 2008 10:46 Jan 12, 2011 Jkt 050382 PO 00000 Frm 00086 Fmt 6601 Sfmt 6601 P:\DOCS\50382.TXT SAFFAIRS PsN: PAT

ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER
83 

1The prepared statement of Mr. Dupnik appears in the Appendix on page 231. 

ing to add 25 people to the HIKE unit to handle these types of 

cases. So there certainly is a financial need in our city. 

I would also ask you to please keep in consideration our Federal 

partners. All of these task forces, all of the major investigations 

that you have heard about this morning, have been conducted by— 

for the most part—task forces that include ATF, DEA, the FBI, and 

ICE, along with our local law enforcement agencies. So, any assistance that you can give to people, resources, and finances to help 

those Federal agencies along the border and in our communities 

would be very much appreciated. 

But, beyond that, I know that I have given presentations to the 

International Association of Chiefs of Police, the Major City Chiefs. 

I have worked with the faith community, with the business community. I have worked with and given presentations to the Police Executive Research Forum in Washington, the Police Foundation. 

And I can tell you that foremost beyond all of this—we all want 

a secure border but we have to have immigration reform. 

There is a big difference between the pictures that you saw of 25 

or 50 people who have committed the crime of trying to come into 

this country to work and provide for this country, and the people 

who are running guns, smuggling their human cargo, and smuggling narcotics. We have to have immigration reform—comprehensive reform. So, this country has to make a decision as to what 

they want us to do at the local level. 

In all of those Federal groups and associations that I have talked 

to, I can tell you there is a minimum of hundreds of different ways 

that local law enforcement is trying to cope with this very difficult 

divisive issue. We have to have something in the way of immigration reform to tell us do we want a workforce in this country that 

is an immigrant workforce or do we not? We have to find a way, 

if we do want that as a country, to bring those people into the 

country legally for a period of time to provide the labor that the 

business community seems to need. 

That I would say is the most important thing that could come out 

of Washington, DC, in the near future to help local law enforcement. Thank you. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Thank you, Chief. Thanks for all parts of 

your testimony, including what I would call a healthy dose at the 

end of Arizona straight talk to which we have become accustomed 

in Washington. 

Sheriff Dupnik, welcome. 

Mr. DUPNIK. Thank you, Senator. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. I look forward to your testimony now. 

STATEMENT OF CLARENCE W. DUPNIK,1 SHERIFF, COUNTY OF 

PIMA, ARIZONA 

Mr. DUPNIK. Thank you, Senator. I have submitted my testimony, as well, but much of what is in here is a duplication or 

triplication of what has already been said. And I think the problem 

that we have here in Arizona with drug smuggling and people 

smuggling is pretty well identified. 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER
84 

So I would like to kind of concentrate on some areas that I 

thought were very important that have been previously discussed. 

And I would kind of like to amplify on that. 

And first I would like to thank Mr. Norris if he is still here— 

I do not see him. 

But at any rate, a lot of what I had to say had to do with the 

Tohono O’odham Reservation. And I appreciate the candor with 

which he talked about it, because it is a very significant problem, 

not only for the nation, but for our country and for smuggling, as 

well. Because we have a corridor that runs primarily from Phoenix 

and Interstate 8 down to the Mexican border, west of Tucson, and 

all the way to the border. 

And it is in that area that most of this activity takes place. And 

that is where Tucson kind of gets caught in the middle. We have 

a tremendous amount of violence associated with the people smuggling and with the narcotics smuggling that goes on because somehow all of this activity has to get from Mexico up to Phoenix. And 

therein lies the rub. 

A lot of this is related to the drug cartels down in Mexico. For 

example, a couple of years ago, before we formed our Border 

Crimes unit in Pima County, we had two loads of aliens coming 

across in the wee hours of the morning, 3 a.m., a very rural known 

smuggling route. And they were fired upon by, as it turned out, 

four armed banditos who were apprehended by the Border Patrol 

and in their statements they had been hired by the Sinaloa Cartel 

down in Sinaloa. They came up, lived in the desert, and were told 

to rip off drugs from a competing cartel, namely the Gulf Cartel, 

which was trying to move in. They fired upon these vehicles, which 

they assumed to be carrying drugs—instead were carrying people, 

and killed several people, wounded several people. And that happened on two different occasions. 

Now, we have not had that kind of violence in about a little over 

a year for reasons that I know not. That kind of activity has subsided. I suppose being a politician I could pat myself on the back 

and say it is because of us, but I think probably we had nothing 

to do with it. 

One of the things that concerns me is the fact that we spend a 

lot of money the same way we spent it last year and the same way 

we spent it the year before. And most of the money that we spend 

in Tucson, for example, goes to investigative activities—intelligence 

and actually narcotics investigation. We do not get into alien smuggling hardly at all because we simply do not have the resources, 

nor should we. I do not think that is our problem; I think that is 

your problem. 

We assist with it all the time. For example—I am not a lawyer 

so I do not want to use the word arrest—but we stop and detail 

probably 100 or so aliens every month that we then turn over to 

the Border Patrol. 

But those are incidental to what we do. We have a department 

of about 1,500 people, about 600 of whom are sworn police officers. 

In our jail—you talked about SCAAP a while ago. Two years ago, 

Pima County was able to recoup 3 percent of our actual costs in 

the jail. That is not a whole lot. On any given day, 10 percent of 

our prisoners are Mexican aliens who are there not because of any 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER
85 

immigration issues but because they committed serious crimes in 

our county. In our jail that is 200 people every day. Well, that is 

a lot of expense. 

That does not include the expense that we have related to 

healthcare—for example, our morgue is overwhelmed with the bodies that are found in the desert. Mainly, people who are not committing any serious crime except trying to get into this country. 

So, expenses are a horrible problem. I do not know how you address that. The previous Administration tried to eliminate SCAAP. 

But I have this idea. We talk about southbound activity, and that 

is an area that cries out for some activity, for some leadership, for 

some response. Putting more people at the ports of entry to check 

southbound activity is imperative and we need to do that. But that 

is not going to stop the sophisticated people from getting guns and 

money back to Mexico. We need to develop a task force, and in my 

remarks I talked about a management program that we put together for our investigative unit down in Tucson. 

We had almost a dozen separate task forces existing at one time 

in Tucson. And about 8 years ago we decided to make that one task 

force. And we succeeded at doing that. And I think the reason we 

succeeded at doing that is because we do not have anybody in 

charge of it. If Customs tries to do something—and I realize there 

is no such agency as Customs anymore—but if DEA, for example, 

has a task force and they want other Federal agencies to plan, it 

is not going to happen. If it becomes the ownership of one agency, 

other agencies are going to be very reluctant to participate. 

And that is why this management concept that we put together 

in Tucson has applications beyond investigative and intelligence activities. If we could put together a task force that would deal with 

the people stealing the cars in Phoenix and going down to the border and bringing people and contraband across, we could make significant impact not only on that which is going south, but that 

which is coming north. 

In our Border Crimes Unit we have 18 people. Well, when you 

consider it takes 5.2 people to staff one position 24 hours a day, 

7 days a week, that is not a lot of people to stick out into the hundreds of miles that we are talking about. 

Pima County, Senator, is a little larger than the State of Connecticut. It is almost 10,000 square miles. And in that county we 

have this reservation where State and local police officers are not 

allowed to participate. And it is a significant problem because most 

of the activity is now coming across that reservation. It is winding 

up in Pinal County and up to Maricopa County. And it is very difficult for people like us to deal with what is going through that reservation. So, I really think there needs to be something done about 

that particular issue with the reservations. 

We have some serious problems in Tucson—primarily in the city 

of Tucson—where all the pockets of social issues and problems 

exist. And it does not matter which particular social indices you 

want to pick to evaluate—whether it be high school dropouts, 

whether it be unwed teenage mothers, whether it be gang membership or single parents in the home, crime, gang membership, whatever—they are all in one pocket. And in that pocket, credible information from people that I deal with in a particular school district 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER
86 

1The prepared statement of Mr. Dever appears in the Appendix on page 251. 

in there say that at least 40 percent of those kids are illegal. That 

is staggering. 

Last week in the Arizona Republic there was a story quoting 

Pew. Is it an institute? 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Yes, Pew Research Center, probably. 

Mr. DUPNIK. They said that in Arizona, one in seven students is 

illegal. I think it is understandable why we have the kinds of problems that we have with reference to our education program. When 

you consider the millions, and millions, and millions of dollars that 

we have to provide just so that students can learn English—and we 

are not allowed to ask those students whether they are here legally 

or not because of a 1986 decision back in Washington. 

Maybe it is time that we send another case back to the Supreme 

Court to see if we might get a different ruling. I have said enough. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Thank you, Sheriff. You covered some 

good ground and it was interesting to the Committee. 

Sheriff Dever. 

STATEMENT OF LARRY A. DEVER,1 SHERIFF, COUNTY OF 

COCHISE, ARIZONA 

Mr. DEVER. Chairman Lieberman, Senator McCain, and Senator 

Kyl. Thank you for being here today and inviting me to participate. 

I will just preface my remarks by saying this is the eighth opportunity I have had to testify before committees of Congress related 

to border issues. And I am starting to feel like maybe I am a little 

ineffective. But, hopefully, I can say something useful today. 

Let me give you just a little bit of historical perspective, if I may. 

I have here a copy of Arizona Sheriff Magazine that features the 

Border Patrol. And in this article it quotes the sector chief of the 

Tucson Sector of the Border Patrol at that time saying this: 

‘‘Within the last year we have been mandated by Congress to 

gain control of the border, and we are going to do that along the 

Southern Border, whether it is narcotics, illegal aliens, terrorists, 

criminals, or whatever.’’ 

A couple of notable items about this article. It was written in the 

fall of 1987, which was 1 year post-Reagan amnesty, by the way. 

It mentions the word ‘‘terrorist,’’ which I find kind of compelling. 

The thought of terrorists using our international border to facilitate 

their evil ways is not a new concept, and the U.S. Border Patrol 

had 250 agents in the Tucson sector at that time. That was 1987; 

today, there are over 3,000 in the sector, and we are sitting here 

talking about all of the violence associated with drug smuggling 

and people smuggling coming across the border. 

Violence comes really in many forms, and you have heard a lot 

of it today about murder and kidnapping, rape, robbery. It is estimated that 80 percent of the women who cross the border illegally 

have been sexually assaulted in some fashion. That study comes actually from a 1995 study that originated in Central America. 

But there is another form of violence that I think is just as insidious, and that is the number of people in—Sheriff Dupnik mentioned his morgue—the number of people who are left behind who 

cannot keep up the pace, either as a result of illness, pregnancy, 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER
87 

injury, or whatever it may be. And they are left behind by these 

ruthless smugglers to die in the desert, which in and of itself is 

murder in my mind. And all of those cases have to be investigated 

as homicides, which require a tremendous amount of resources on 

our part to do. 

Something that has not been mentioned in detail a little bit by 

authorities here in Phoenix is the impact on our local residents of 

this unferreted smuggling that continues to invade us and threaten 

homeowners and property owners along the border and particularly 

in the rural areas. My county—we are in the southeast corner of 

Arizona. Properties are continually burglarized. Their fences are 

cut and damaged. Their water sources destroyed, contaminated. 

The amounts of human waste and trash left behind are devastating, not only to private property but to the beautiful and scenic mountainous areas and park and recreation areas in Cochise 

County. 

If you drive into the entry, up one of the canyons into the public 

parks—these areas where people like to go for recreation—you will 

find a sign at the entry onto those Federal properties that says: 

‘‘Caution: Drug and human smuggling may be encountered here.’’ 

Bad situation. 

The day and night disruption of the quality of life is enormous. 

People cannot leave their homes together. Spouses—husbands and 

wives—somebody has to stay behind to watch the place to keep it 

from being robbed. We have a 6,300 square mile county, and I do 

not have an Indian reservation so my county jurisdiction is bigger 

than my partner Sheriff Dupnik, here, in those terms. And I have 

86 deputies total in my organization. 

Mr. DUPNIK. Chief Dever, I am jealous. If you could share a few, 

I would take them. 

Mr. DEVER. There are some things that we have and cannot ask 

you to do. You mentioned SCAAP, Senator Kyl. SCAAP is important. In 1997, when we first applied for SCAAP, we received about 

33 percent of our actual costs associated with incarcerated criminal 

aliens. Today it is 9 cents on every dollar. There are a lot of causes 

in that—reduction in the fund, as well as the tremendous impact 

of the presence of illegal alien activity, criminal activity throughout 

the country, and more people tapping that fund. 

Today, as we sit here in spite of all the efforts and funding that 

we have seen come down the pipe and to talk about the need for 

interoperability that is physical communication, the ability for 

State, local, and Federal law enforcement first responders—police, 

fire, medical—to be able to pick up the microphone on the radio 

and talk to each other in the event of a need in a situation to do 

that—does not exist along most of the Southwest Border. 

We are talking about a tremendous need for infrastructure in 

order to support that kind of effort. Specifically, I sit on the Board 

of Directors of the National Sheriffs’ Association and chair the Immigration Subcommittee of the Homeland Security Committee. And 

we sat down and crunched numbers, taking a specific look at the 

Southwest Border and what might be needed in terms of funding 

support for personnel, for communications infrastructure and support, along the entire 2,200 mile Southwest Border to a distance of 

only 25 miles north. The nominal number of about $500,000,000 a 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER
88 

year for five consecutive years is the figure that comes up—rises 

to the surface when we discuss and examine that. 

Finally, I would like to address what Senator Lieberman stated 

this morning in a comment in your initial remarks where you emphasized the importance of coordinated effort and discussion at the 

State and local level with Federal authorities. Everything—every 

policy, every strategy, every initiative launched by the Federal 

Government has an immediate and long-term local impact. And 

State and Local officials who have lived and worked in this environment their entire lives and for many years must be included in 

those planning sessions. 

And one last comment that came up when you were talking 

about the National Guard. We need to understand the culture from 

whence these people come. They do not have a great regard for civil 

law enforcement officials—either Federal or local—and in some 

places those do not even exist. But they do have a great deal of— 

I will call it—respect, and more likely fear of military resources. 

And the mere presence of those units—-regardless of what they are 

tasking is—creates a whole new element of deterrence in the mind 

of the border crossers. 

Thank you. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Thank you, Sheriff. 

That is a very interesting point at the end. I appreciate it. 

Chief Dever, let me ask you to give us some context to a few of 

the statistics that are part of the national debate with regard to 

‘‘Phoenix: Kidnapping Capital of America.’’ You did some of this, 

but first off it is just a question of fact because most other parts 

of the country—we do not talk about home invasions. We talk 

about breaking and entering, things of that kind. But what is a 

home invasion? 

Mr. DEVER. Well, the difference is—I think most people would 

think if their house was broken into, that it was probably a burglary. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Right. 

Mr. DEVER. While they were not at home. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Correct. 

Mr. DEVER. A home invasion is more of a tactical entry into the 

house, similar to what you would think a SWAT team would do 

where people come heavily armed. They force their way through 

the front door while the people are at home, and then they take 

them captive. And it is usually about drugs. Somebody fronted a 

bunch of money or drugs to another dealer and they did not get the 

money back, and so they are breaking into the house. They are 

going to hold everybody in the house captive until the money or the 

drugs are brought to them. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. And that I take it can also become a kidnapping incident. 

Mr. DEVER. Yes. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Obviously, in most of the rest of the country, when we talk about kidnapping—not always so. Obviously, 

sometimes it has to do with domestic disputes, but at worst it is 

grabbing somebody who you do not know and holding them, perhaps for various purposes. One might be for ransom. 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER
89 

But, again, you said the majority of the kidnappings are within 

the drug smuggling and human smuggling communities. Correct? 

Mr. DEVER. Yes. The vast majority. We have had incidents where 

a bad guy had moved out of a house. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Yes. 

Mr. DEVER. And the other drug dealers came and hit the house 

a few days later and there were innocent people that had moved 

into the house. American citizens. 

But the vast majority of the cases that we are talking about is 

drug dealer on drug dealer or it is tied to the human smuggling 

for ransom. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. So to say the obvious, I assume that were 

it not for the presence of the Mexican drug cartels operating in and 

around Phoenix that the kidnapping rate here would be pretty 

much like the kidnapping rate everywhere else in America. 

Mr. DEVER. Absolutely. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Let me go to a different part of this, if I 

can. 

I want to ask you, if you could—and I ask all three of you—characterize your working relationships with the Federal law enforcement agencies in your jurisdiction. 

Go back to the Sheriff’s last point and my first point. We want 

to know whether there is real coordination going on here, and a lot 

of the testimony that we have heard that was submitted talked 

about the need for enhanced information sharing and collaboration 

between Federal agencies and the State and local law enforcement 

departments. I do not think any of this is personal, but how is it 

going in that regard? 

Mr. DEVER. Well, in Phoenix, I can tell you that it is unique compared to the rest of the country from what I have seen. We have 

a very good working relationship with all of the Federal agencies. 

As I mentioned in my testimony, most of the major cases that 

were mentioned today by the Attorney General and by the Mayor 

were conducted through task forces involving the Department of 

Public Safety, our State Police Organization, with our sheriffs, with 

ATF, DEA—all the three letter identifier organizations in the country. So, in Phoenix, we have had a really great relationship. 

The information sharing is something that I think nationally— 

whether you are talking to the sheriffs or you are talking to local 

police, they are going to tell you we would like to see more of the 

information sharing made available to us at the local level. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Tell me what you’re talking about there. 

What kinds of information? 

Mr. DEVER. When you look at the information that an organization like DEA has available to them in reference to narcotics trafficking or you look at the information that the FBI has in relation 

to terrorism, there has been a long history of being very careful 

about sharing that information with local agencies. 

We would like to see improvements, even though here in Phoenix 

we do not have a big problem with it. But nationally, I would say 

that we need to see an improvement there. 

One of the things that has been very beneficial in doing that are 

the fusion centers—the Arizona Counter Terrorism Information 

Center (ACTIC) here in Arizona has representatives from all of 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER
90 

those agencies. We did something very unique in Phoenix last year. 

We asked ICE to provide us 10 of their ICE agents to work in our 

Violent Crimes Bureau. So they sit right next to our detectives that 

are investigating the home invasions, the murders, and the 

kidnappings. They have access to databases that we do not have 

access to. 

So we are able to alleviate a little bit of that, but if we had access to some of those databases that would be much improved. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. I appreciate that. My time is up. 

This has been a real focus of our Committee going back to the 

post-September 11, 2001, period because obviously, part of the 

story of September 11 is that the agencies of the Federal Government were not sharing information that they should have shared. 

If they had shared, it is possible we could have stopped September 

11. 

I always feel that from a Federal level we should look at State 

and local law enforcement as part of one national force. And when 

you think about how much stronger we would be—whether the 

enemy is the terrorists or what we are dealing with as Mexican 

drug cartels—if we are working together. It just seems foolish not 

to. I do not know why you would not share information with local 

law enforcement. I do not think there is a good argument that I 

have heard for that. 

So, I thank you for bringing us to the relevance of that point to 

the Mexican drug cartel. 

Senator McCain. 

Senator MCCAIN. Well, I thank the witnesses, and I am very glad 

to see all three of you. Thank you for your many years of service 

to our State. I am grateful that you would come today, and I am 

very appreciative of the input that we get from you. 

Chief Harris, last month, the Department of Homeland Security 

notified our office that of the hundreds of kidnappings in Phoenix 

last year, the FBI’s Phoenix field office only opened seven kidnapping cases—five of which came out of the Tucson resident office. Do 

you know why that is? 

Mr. HARRIS. No, actually, I do not. 

Senator MCCAIN. Has that concerned you? 

Mr. HARRIS. Well, our kidnapping cases that are related to this— 

we open those cases. Our investigators investigate those cases. 

They would not be transferred over to the Federal agencies. But, 

no, I was not aware of that number. 

Senator MCCAIN. Sheriff Dupnik, you have been around as sheriff since 1980 and have a wonderful record of service. How is this 

whole issue of violence on the border changed since the day you 

first were sworn in as sheriff? 

Mr. DUPNIK. In 1980, there was very little violence. It was kind 

of incidental based on what was going on. There was very little 

smuggling going on. The same kind of smuggling that we have 

today was not going on in 1980. 

Primarily, they were using aircraft and things of that nature. 

Today, it is just totally changed. The people involved in the activities have become more and more violent themselves. They are very 

quick to pull the trigger and kill another human being over a 

minor issue. That is something that we did not used to see in the 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER
91 

old days. People had a little more respect for human life than they 

do today. But, there was very little violence associated with the 

traffic. 

And I think one of the reasons that it has escalated to the point 

it is today is because of the organized criminal activity that is involved in it. Back in 1980, there was not that much criminal organization involved in smuggling. Today, it is almost totally organized. 

A few years ago the Colombians tried to make some in-roads into 

taking the cocaine from Colombia, putting it into Mexico, transporting it across Mexico, and bringing it into the United States, 

and then trying to control it in the United States, as well. The 

Mexicans fought back and eventually kicked the Colombians out. 

And now it is just the cartels fighting each other. 

Speaking of Mexico, I would like to echo what a lot of the speakers have already said. I have seen presidents—as you all have— 

come and go in Mexico. They talked about doing something about 

drugs but very little ever happened. As a matter of fact, years ago 

they would take the helicopters, and the money, and the aid that 

we provided to them and used it for their own purposes. 

So, President Calderon is the first president that has had the 

courage to do something about it. How this is all going to turn out, 

I do not know. But I think this is the only chance we may have 

in our generation to assist that country in doing something about 

this horrible problem. If he fails, it is going to have incredible consequences for the country of Mexico, and it is going to have substantial consequences for us here. 

Senator MCCAIN. I could not agree with you more, Sheriff. And 

we certainly need to emphasize the need to cooperate with him in 

a broad variety of ways. Some argue that it is not only our last 

chance, but maybe the Mexican government’s last chance. I do not 

necessarily accept that description, but there certainly is a significant threat. 

Sheriff Dever, in his statement, talked about the lack of interoperability that still exists after all these years of trying to fix it. 

Are you plagued with that problem, too? 

Mr. DUPNIK. We are, but we are in the process of fixing it, to 

some extent. 

Five years ago we passed a bond issue in Pima County for $105 

million for an interoperability radio system for public safety, which 

is primarily for first responders—police, fire, and emergency services. The contract was just let 2 weeks ago to begin to build that 

system 5 years later. 

We still do not have the kind of funds that we need to finish it 

because 5 years ago prices were different and there never was 

enough money put into it. They put $95 million into a project that 

really needed about $115 million. So, we still could use some Federal help to make that happen. 

At one time I had this noble goal of including our Federal partners in this system so that we could talk to our Federal partners, 

as well. And I went to the FBI. I went to ICE. And I went to the 

Border Patrol. And they all wanted to play. They had no reservations because their system sucks, too, to be honest about it. Their 

systems are horrible. 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER
92 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Talk about Arizona straight talk. [Laughter.] 

Mr. DUPNIK. They are in worse shape than we are. But, because 

of the bureaucracy, if we tried to make that happen, we would still 

be talking about it. 

Senator MCCAIN. It is also because of the failure to get the frequencies. And it is one of the recommendations of the 9/11 Commission—in fact, one of the few recommendations that have not 

been implemented and it is disgraceful. There is no reason wasting 

the time of the Committee to go through it. 

Sheriff Dever, you testified, as you mentioned, last month before 

the House Homeland Security Committee, and you stated the important thing to remember—and I cannot emphasize it enough— 

that every Federal initiative, every Federal strategy and tactical 

planning opportunity needs State and local input because they 

have local consequences. Have you noticed significant difficulty in 

that area? The lack of State and local input? 

Mr. DEVER. Yes, sir, although it is much improved. 

In part, answering Senator Lieberman’s question along with 

yours, in Mexico we talk about the corruption problem, and they 

have institutionalized corruption in Mexico. What we have had traditionally in the intelligence system in the United States is what 

I call institutionalized territorialism. And there is still a large degree of mistrust and a desire to safeguard the very important 

pieces of information that need to filter down to the working 

level—the most rudimentary area. 

But, it has been recently improved. There has been a lot of outreach recently from DHS to attempt to include, particularly Southwest Border sheriffs, I know, in discussions, what our specific 

needs are. I am working on a document to send back to that committee that you mentioned that talks about some specific needs. So 

it is all very encouraging, but it needs follow through, of course, 

and a commitment to consistency and determination to follow 

through on these discussions is what is critical. And we still have 

to overcome that institutionalized territorialism to a great degree. 

Senator MCCAIN. Thank you. Just finally, Chief Harris, how are 

you generally able to identify these drop houses? Is it neighbors? 

Is it surveillance? What is it that usually identifies these places for 

you? 

Mr. HARRIS. Many times it is just the neighbors calling in. There 

is suspicious activity. They are seeing a lot of people coming and 

going out of the area and something does not seem right to the 

community. It is really a strong point for community policing—that 

neighbors are far more aware than they were 20 years ago as to 

what goes on in their neighborhoods. 

So, mostly it is that kind of a call. A check welfare. We are seeing something is not right over there at the house. Could you check 

it out? And then the officers arrive; they go up to the house. 

Senator MCCAIN. Do we have a program encouraging citizens to 

call in? 

Mr. HARRIS. Yes. 

Senator MCCAIN. If you had to make a guess, if you could, how 

many drop houses do you think there are in Phoenix? 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER
93 

Mr. HARRIS. Well, that would be very difficult at any given moment to guess, but I would say the records probably reflect that 

there are somewhere between 90 and 100 drop houses a year. 

Senator MCCAIN. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Thanks, Senator McCain. Senator Kyl. 

Senator KYL. Thank you. 

I have always wondered about the comparison between Tucson 

and Phoenix in this regard. I have always assumed that there were 

a lot more in Phoenix, even though it is a bigger community. 

Is the drop house issue comparable in Tucson, Sheriff Dupnik? 

Do you know? 

Mr. DUPNIK. I do not think that it is. It is a significant issue for 

us in Tucson, but I do not think it is nearly the problem that it 

is up in Phoenix. And I think it is because the traffic is going to 

Phoenix. Phoenix is the hub. 

Senator KYL. Yes. So, the point is they are not going to stay in 

Tucson very long. The main point is to get folks up to Phoenix so 

then they can either go east, or west, or north. 

Mr. DUPNIK. That is correct. We get them. Tubac gets them. Eloy 

gets them. But not in the numbers. 

Senator KYL. The other thing that I wanted to ask you—I am not 

sure I understood—you indicated that the bulk of the problem was 

through the Tohono O’odham Reservation. Could you expand on 

that? Did you mean that in the Tucson sector? Or on the Arizona 

border? Quantify that if you would. 

Mr. DUPNIK. Primarily, it is the Tucson sector that I am talking 

about. And because we cannot get on the reservation—that it 

makes it a lot more difficult for us to deal with the problem. 

But if I could get back to one of the questions because I think 

I could add something to Senator Lieberman’s question about intelligence-sharing. 

One of the reasons that we cannot share intelligence with the 

Federal agents as much as they would like to share with us is because in their systems they have intelligence information. We do 

not have that in our system. 

For example, with our license plate readers we have two issues. 

Most of our units in our Border Crimes unit have these license 

plate readers that read things automatically and feed you back information immediately, automatically. But the problem is in Arizona—we do not have front license plates, which makes it very difficult operationally, not only for us but for the Border Patrol and 

for all law enforcement. And for some reason, we cannot get the 

legislature to understand that. I do not think it is that big of an 

issue. 

But the second problem is that—for example, a car from Colorado, we check their plate and nothing comes back out of our system. But, if we were tied to DEA’s system, we would know that car 

was involved in narcotics trafficking or some other criminal activity. So, that is a serious problem. 

DEA is looking at that closely now to see if they can help us to 

perhaps incorporate some of the information that comes out of the 

El Paso Intelligence Center (EPIC), and somehow linking that to 

our system. But it is a problem, and it is always going to be a probVerDate Nov 24 2008 10:46 Jan 12, 2011 Jkt 050382 PO 00000 Frm 00097 Fmt 6601 Sfmt 6601 P:\DOCS\50382.TXT SAFFAIRS PsN: PAT

ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER
94 

lem when you are talking about intelligence information being 

accessed by multiple agencies. 

Senator KYL. I appreciate that. We cannot solve the front license 

plate problem, though I assume that the first panel should be contacted about that. 

But on the second matter, we just need to know from many of 

you—and you do not have to wait until there is a hearing. I know 

you come back and see us in Washington, and that is helpful, but 

at any point that you suggest that we could do something to help 

facilitate things like the information sharing. If it is a cost issue, 

for example, please let us know that. 

Mr. DUPNIK. Well, one time you did, Senator. You may recall 

that right after September 11, 2001, because of some things that 

happened in Tucson with reference to terrorism, I contacted you 

and you tried desperately to get the people in Washington to do 

something about a call line where people could report terrorism. 

Well, you were not successful in that, unfortunately, but I laud 

you for your effort. I should have called Senator McCain. [Laughter.] 

But at any rate, we started that program in Tucson, and that is 

one of the things that I wanted to talk about. We started it right 

after September 11, 2001, in Tucson, and we got some very interesting calls. 

There are not going to be that many calls that come in referencing terrorism—whether it be Tucson, New York City, or 

whomever. But I think that the program could be done on a national basis with very little cost, and it would be very effective. Because all it takes is the one phone call. And I can see President 

Obama right now on TV in a public service announcement advertising this new program. 

Senator KYL. Would you do us a favor and write up a little onepage memo on that to the Chairman, and then we will see if we 

can get more going on that. 

The story here—there were two specific calls in to the Sheriff’s 

office which resulted in significant terrorist investigations in Pima 

County right after September 11, 2001, so it was a big deal. If you 

could do that, that would be very helpful. 

Before the time expires, Sheriff Dever has been on the frontline 

of this for a long time. And all of the things that you talked about, 

the one thing that has not really gotten the attention because it is 

more of a rural county, is the protection of the folks out in ranch 

country. For example, the cutting of fences, leaving the water on, 

or cutting the water. And you also mentioned the environmental 

impact. 

I guess the time is up. Could you speak just for a second about 

the environmental consequences here? Because I think people back 

east have a hard time imagining out here in the desert how there 

could be environmental consequences to this smuggling. 

Mr. DEVER. Well, I am trying to keep people out of Cochise County, so I will not tell them how beautiful it is. [Laughter.] 

But we have on the western and eastern ends of the county, primarily, two sky islands. Mountain ranges that reach up 9,000 feet. 

They are beautiful, forested. People come from all over the world 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER
95 

to visit. Bird watchers flock in —no pun intended—by the hundreds 

of thousands. And those areas are just simply trashed. 

And when I say trashed, I am talking about football field-size 

areas piled two to three feet deep with backpacks, and clothing, 

and medical supplies, and human waste up in those areas. People 

normally go and recreate there. They are lay-up areas for illegals— 

both drug smugglers, and alien smugglers. 

I did not mention the fires. Just last month we had four fires 

that were started by smuggling groups that got out of control. One 

of them burned one house and 12 other structures. There is all 

kinds of environmental damage and consequences to that. 

And, water is scarce in our area. And those water sources are 

popular gathering places for smugglers and illegals crossing the 

area. And they contaminate it and they leave all kinds of junk behind. 

Cattle ingest plastic bags that are left behind by people carrying 

them through—and strangle and die. It is a sad set of circumstances that has just gone on way too long. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Sheriff Dupnik, I just have one other 

question. 

My staff has been here for a couple of days before the hearing 

and meeting with people, and they were surprised in talking to the 

Border Patrol to learn that Border Patrol has been prohibited by 

Federal law from building permanent checkpoints in the Tucson 

sector, which means that when they try to stop traffic they basically have to get out there on a limited access highway with orange 

cones and try to bring the cars to a stop. 

What is the background on that and how do you feel about it? 

Do they understand it correctly? 

Mr. DUPNIK. Do you want a candid answer? 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Yes, sir. We have not put you under oath 

but I know you are an honorable man. Yes. 

Mr. DUPNIK. There used to be a congressman representing that 

area that we are talking about who simply would not allow it. 

Would not allow it to be funded. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Right. 

Mr. DUPNIK. That is tending to change. And it is my understanding that at some point they are going to put one—not where 

they really want it but in a different location that will not upset 

so many people in that location. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. But you would say from a law enforcement point of view that it is a good idea to have a permanent 

checkpoint? 

Mr. DUPNIK. I think it is a fantastic idea. 

And if I could offer—I do not know how much time we have 

left—— 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. No, go ahead. 

Mr. DUPNIK. We talk about southbound traffic. But I still have 

not heard very many ideas on what we ought to do about it. 

One of the things that happens when you guys allocate Federal 

money is that we all get together and figure out how to spend it. 

And sometimes we do some very good things with it, as you have 

heard here today. 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER
96 

But sometimes, one of the things that happens is we tend to just 

fortify what we have been doing. And the Federal agencies tend to 

do that, as well. And nothing really creative happens. 

I would kind of like to see a separate program—maybe a pilot 

program—where you say to us give us your ideas—maybe a onepage statement of the problem and a one-page statement of how 

you would like to attack it. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Do you mean specifically relating to the 

drug cartels? 

Senator MCCAIN. Mr. Chairman—— 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Go ahead, Senator McCain. 

Senator MCCAIN. On the subject of the permanent checkpoint— 

and I cannot make Congressman Colby’s argument as convincingly 

as he did—but his argument was we establish a permanent checkpoint and the drug dealers and the human smugglers know about 

it and they just simply go around. I am curious about your response to that. 

Mr. DUPNIK. From my point of view that is a weak argument. It 

sounds reasonable. He said we should put all of our resources on 

the border instead of right at the border in a denial mode. But, unfortunately, there are not enough resources to do that. And they 

will find ways to circumvent it. 

But, the Border Patrol has plenty of statistics to show the effectiveness of permanent checkpoints. And they have strategies to 

deal with the very issue that you brought up. They have ways to 

deal with the flanking that is going to occur. And, in fact, they 

want that to happen. 

I would like to talk about a southbound project where we incorporate some semi-permanent checkpoints going south. And also, 

some mobile checkpoints. But we, in law enforcement, from a legal 

standpoint—State and local people cannot do much about that because we do not have the authority to stop the traffic along the border. 

In our Border Crimes Unit, we have two full-time Border Patrol 

sergeants assigned to our unit. So that helps us. But, on our own 

we cannot do it. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. So, do you want to give us an idea. I 

mean, I will ask you for a second memo now since Senator Kyl— 

Mr. DUPNIK. Well, we talk about the National Guard, for example. What could the National Guard do if we really wanted them 

to do? And I am not a legal expert on posse comitatus either. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Right. 

Mr. DUPNIK. But I have never heard anybody say how far can 

you push the envelope to having the National Guard do something 

substantial to help you? Well, I would like to see a program—a 

Southbound Task Force—using the management concept that I 

talked about in this paper where we have a huge task force of 

State, and local, and Federal people trying to deal with southbound 

traffic. 

And if we had the National Guard to assist us in getting into the 

remote areas by helicopter and then using perhaps a C–26, which 

I think is a minor version of the Airborne Warning and Control 

System (AWACS) to be able to provide communications and control 

of operations, we could then get into areas where there are incurVerDate Nov 24 2008 10:46 Jan 12, 2011 Jkt 050382 PO 00000 Frm 00100 Fmt 6601 Sfmt 6601 P:\DOCS\50382.TXT SAFFAIRS PsN: PAT

ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER
97 

sions occurring or where there is narcotics being trafficked. I think 

we could really make some substantial progress. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. It is a really good idea. 

Senator MCCAIN. Mr. Chairman, could I just ask for a brief 

statement from each one? Obviously, we know there is a demand 

for drugs. Maybe we could close up here by what do we do about 

the demand? Starting with you, Chief Harris 

Mr. HARRIS. Well, I think you hit on one of the keys. As a citizen 

of this country, we have to take responsibility for why all those 

drugs are coming across the border. They are coming across the 

border because we want them, and we give them big money to get 

them to come across the border. 

So it is easy to point fingers at the drug cartels. They are bad 

people, but we are fueling that whole business with our insatiable 

desire for drugs. 

I think it starts at the very earliest levels of education with our 

children as they are in kindergarten and on up—is to try to divert 

them away from the demand for the drugs. So, I think one of the 

key things for that side of it is we can certainly do more in the area 

of enforcement, but as a guy who worked narcotics undercover 

making buys, I have been into apartment complexes back in the 

1970s where I could have bought 25 buys a day in one apartment 

complex. So, that is a very difficult enforcement part of the picture 

to be involved with. 

But, I think education, especially with the younger the better, is 

one of the keys and in the schools. 

Mr. DUPNIK. I think as long as there are drugs on the streets 

kids are going to use them. And adults are going to use them. 

So, how do we keep the drugs off the street? Part of the problem, 

in my judgment, is the fact that there is not the will in America 

to make the necessary effort or the sacrifice to do the significant 

things that need to be done. We need to have a policy at the national level that deals with our schools—and not only provides the 

support that they need for getting the drugs out of their school, but 

they need perhaps some regulation. 

Drug testing ought to be a significant component. If law enforcement officers and other groups of people can submit themselves on 

a regular basis to being tested for drugs—so, it is an invasion of 

privacy. And I understand that. But if you look at the national 

data on schools that use drug testing as part of their program and 

have a very rigid approach to dealing with drugs decisively, their 

drug use has gone down dramatically. 

If we had the same programs for business—if we had the same 

programs for supporting our parents in our homes and getting the 

drugs out of our homes, out of our businesses, out of our schools— 

I think we could make some significant progress. 

Mr. DEVER. We talk about the insatiable appetite for illegal 

drugs. There is a much greater appetite for controlled substances 

that are legally produced and distributed in this country. So, the 

problem—law enforcement is an important component, an important element of the equation or the solution. We have to keep reinforcing it and keep working it—what Sheriff Dupnik suggested— 

and that is keeping the stuff—legal substances and illegal substances—out of the hands of the people that should not have them. 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER
98 

But I am just telling you, Senator, and this is my personal perspective, churches have a role to play. Synagogues have a role to 

play. Law enforcement has a role to play. Schools have a role to 

play. But if it is not happening in the home, it is not going to happen. 

Senator MCCAIN. Could I say, Mr. Chairman, I really thank you 

for coming to Phoenix, Arizona, to conduct this hearing. It is a terrible issue that confronts my State, as well as America, and I am 

very grateful that you are here. And I think it has been very useful 

and very helpful. And thank you for your time in coming here 

today. 

Chairman LIEBERMAN. Well, thanks for saying that, Senator 

McCain. And thank you for making sure that I came here. It was 

a very important morning. I learned a lot. Not just to put human 

faces and reality onto the numbers and the problem, but the various panels have given us some specific ideas that I think are very 

practical and helpful in terms of law changes and where we ought 

to develop resources. Your idea about a task force on southbound 

traffic is a very good idea. 

I mean, ultimately, we can have a lot of arguments about gun 

control, etc., but it is pretty clear that those are only going to go 

so far. If we want to respond to what the Mexican government is 

most asking us for, which is to try to deter the movement of weapons south, we are going to have to do it in the southbound flow. 

And, of course, the second part is that the money is going that 

way, and that is another way to hurt the enemy here—if I can use 

that expression—the drug cartels. It has been a very productive 

morning, and I thank you all. 

Well, in the normal course of things, this Committee leaves the 

record of these hearings open for 15 days, if you want to add anything to your testimony or if we want to ask more questions to answer for the record. 

I cannot thank you enough. This is a real crisis. It happens to 

be more intense here along the border, but it is a national crisis 

as your answer to the last question indicated. And we are going to 

do everything we can to get you help as quickly as we possibly can. 

The hearing is adjourned. 

[Whereupon, at 12:15 p.m., the Committee was adjourned.] 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER
(99) 

A P P E N D I X 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.152
100 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.153
101 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.154
102 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.001
103 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.002
104 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.003
105 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.004
106 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.005
107 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.006
108 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.007
109 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.008
110 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.009
111 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.010
112 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.011
113 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.012
114 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.013
115 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.014
116 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.015
117 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.016
118 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.017
119 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.018
120 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.019
121 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.020
122 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.021
123 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.022
124 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.023
125 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.024
126 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.025
127 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.026
128 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.027
129 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.028
130 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.029
131 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.030
132 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.031
133 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.032
134 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.033
135 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.034
136 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.035
137 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.036
138 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.037
139 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.038
140 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.039
141 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.040
142 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.041
143 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.042
144 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.043
145 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.044
146 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.045
147 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.046
148 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.047
149 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.048
150 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.049
151 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.050
152 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.148
153 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.149
154 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.150
155 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.151
156 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.159
157 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.160
158 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.051
159 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.052
160 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.053
161 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.054
162 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.055
163 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.056
164 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.057
165 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.058
166 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.059
167 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.060
168 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.061
169 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.062
170 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.063
171 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.064
172 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.065
173 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.066
174 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.067
175 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.068
176 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.069
177 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.070
178 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.071
179 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.072
180 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.073
181 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.074
182 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.075
183 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.076
184 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.077
185 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.078
186 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.079
187 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.080
188 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.081
189 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.082
190 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.083
191 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.155
192 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.156
193 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.157
194 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.158
195 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.084
196 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.085
197 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.086
198 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.087
199 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.088
200 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.089
201 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.090
202 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.091
203 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.092
204 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.093
205 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.094
206 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.095
207 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.138
208 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.139
209 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.096
210 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.097
211 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.098
212 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.099
213 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.100
214 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.101
215 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.102
216 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.103
217 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.104
218 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.140
219 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.141
220 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.142
221 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.143
222 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.105
223 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.106
224 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.107
225 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.108
226 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.109
227 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.110
228 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.111
229 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.112
230 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.113
231 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.114
232 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.115
233 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.116
234 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.117
235 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.118
236 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.119
237 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.120
238 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.121
239 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.122
240 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.123
241 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.124
242 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.125
243 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.126
244 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.127
245 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.128
246 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.129
247 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.130
248 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.131
249 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.132
250 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.133
251 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.134
252 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.135
253 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.136
254 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.137
255 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.144
256 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.145
257 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.146
258 

Æ 


ph44585 on D330-44585-7600 with DISTILLER50382.147