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 DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY

 APPLIANCE STANDARDS AND RULEMAKING

 FEDERAL ADVISORY COMMITTEE MEETING

 Department of Energy

 1000 Independence Avenue SW

 Forrestal Building

 Washington, D.C. 20585

 Tuesday, May 28, 2013

 10:00 a.m.

Reported by: Natalia Thomas,

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1 A P P E A R A N C E S

2 FACILITATOR

3 Neil Eisner, Navigant Consulting

4

5 PARTICIPANTS

6 Karim Amrane, Air-Conditioning, Heating, and

7 Refrigeration Institute (AHRI)

8 Ashley Armstrong, U.S. Department of Energy

9 Timothy Ballo, Earthjustice

10 Laura Barhydt, U.S. Department of Energy

11 Jeff Bauman, National Comfort Products

12 Mary Dane, Traulsen

13 Paul Doppel, Mitsubishi Electric

14 Mark Fly, AAON Heating & Cooling Products

15 Tom Johnson

16 Geoffrey Halley, SJI Consultants

17 Charles Hon, True Manufacturing

18 Jill Hootman, Trane

19 Jonathan Hunt

20 Marshall Hunt, Pacific Gas & Electric Company

21 Tom Johnson, Daikin McQuay

22 Jeff Kleiss, Lochinvar
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1 A P P E A R A N C E S

2 Michael Kojak, UL LLC

3 Karen Meyers, Rheem Manufacturing Company

4 Frank Myers, PVI

5 Massoud Neshan, Southern Store Fixtures, Inc.

6 Kent Peterson, P2S Engineering

7 Michael Rivest, U.S. Department of Energy

8 Harvey Sachs, ACEEE

9 Joe Saunders

10 Ronald Shebik, Hussmann Corporation

11 Frank Stanonik, Air-Conditioning, Heating, and

12 Refrigeration Institute (AHRI)

13 Louis Starr, Northwest Energy Efficiency Alliance

14 (NEEA)

15 Phillip Stephens, HTP Advanced Heating and Water

16 Systems

17 Russell Tharp, Goodman Air Conditioning and Heating

18 Robert Whitwell, Carrier

19

20

21

22
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1 P R O C E E D I N G S

2 MR. SACHS: Welcome to ACEEE and I hope we

3 can make it work. There's a little bit of boilerplate.

4 I did make a few notes. We've just been through our

5 annual fire drill, so it's not likely to happen again,

6 but there's an exit that way and an exit that way. Go

7 down and out.

8 Restrooms -- washroom cultural tradition in

9 this class of office building is that restrooms are

10 locked. Geneve (ph) at the front is very and nice and

11 has keys to both the men's and the ladies, and she will

12 wave her arms to let you back in.

13 Beverages and snacks -- the corner bakery is

14 just below us; pretty easy to get to. Go down to the T

15 level, which is the lobby level, for some reason, and

16 follow the directions. There are lots and lots of

17 options here. You don't have to eat at the DOE

18 cafeteria.

19 I've tried to list them. I don't have a lot

20 of experience with the upper end restaurants. And

21 internet access for the guest Wi-Fi is right there.

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Hi.
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1 MR. SACHS: You're late.

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: I'm -- 10:15, you said.

3 MR. SACHS: Oh, that's right.

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: And technically, I'm here. I

5 have 11D (ph).

6 MR. SACHS: Ashley gives as good as she can.

7 MR. EISNER: Do we know if Laura's coming?

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: She is, but you said 10:15.

9 MR. SACHS: That's right, it is 10:15 and I

10 apologize.

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: We follow directions. We're

12 timely here.

13 MR. SACHS: That's not something I ever

14 scored high on.

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: Following directions?

16 MR. SACHS: Yes.

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: I never would have guessed.

18 MR. EISNER: Let me mention that we have

19 different mics from what we usually have. These mics

20 are not necessarily as sensitive to your voice, but

21 they will pick up side conversations, so please be

22 careful with that. Make sure you stick to the -- and
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1 you know, the court reporter is doing a great job.

2 He's going to need your help. You're going to have to

3 pay attention to that. It's a little different from

4 what we had at DOE where they have the individual mics.

5 All right, let's wait a little longer for

6 Laura then we'll get started.

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: We can start if you want.

8 MR. EISNER: Okay.

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well you can start if you

10 want.

11 MR. EISNER: Okay.

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: I can be Laura for a little,

13 few minutes.

14 MR. SACHS: For one that's a bit hard of

15 hearing, if everyone can speak, even if you're speaking

16 to the one adjacent to you, speak as though you're

17 talking to the corner of the room so that everyone can

18 hear.

19 MR. EISNER: Sure. And again, I'm told by

20 our court reporter that these microphones don't amplify

21 your voice, they just pick up your voice. So you do

22 need to speak loudly and clearly, and I'm one of those
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1 people who has to be very careful about that. All

2 right.

3 MR. SACHS: The primary microphone is

4 actually on the hiding in the center over the altar and

5 it will pick up most things. Once they installed this

6 system a few months ago, we've had much less trouble

7 with our remote staff in our staff meetings.

8 MR. EISNER: All right. Why don't we start

9 off where we left off last week with the scope issue?

10 There was one remaining issue, but the first thing I

11 want to do is go over the paper that Ashley circulated

12 over the weekend with what she thought was what we had

13 resolved based on the screens that she had been typing

14 for all of us. One person --

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: Oh, that's what I'm supposed

16 to do. Sorry, I'm learning how to use technology over

17 here.

18 MR. EISNER: So the first question is the

19 general question, does everybody agree with the summary

20 that Ashley circulated during the weekend. I know a

21 few people wrote in with some corrections that they

22 wanted made and Ashley was going to look at them and
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1 decide whether they were just grammatical or typos, or

2 whether they were things we had to discuss.

3 And one person wrote in and said that he felt

4 that he had abstained or that his representative had

5 abstained. This was Peter Molvie from Cleaver-Brooks.

6 We did not -- we recalled, Ashley and I discussed that,

7 I recalled and she recalled that the concerns with this

8 particular issue were discussed. We were not aware

9 there was an abstention. We're willing to go back and

10 clarify what the situation is and if Peter still wants

11 to voice an abstention for that, we can add that to the

12 record of the proceedings. Why don't we start off with

13 the issues that you got over the weekend from some of

14 the members?

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: Is Jeff on the phone? Is

16 Jeff Kleiss on the phone? Okay. So the only edits I

17 had were from Jeff and they happened to be in a

18 specific section relative to the footnotes. But since

19 Jeff's not on the phone to explain his edits, maybe we

20 can start if anybody else in the room had edits or

21 issues?

22 We are loading this on SharePoint, which will
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1 be a live version for people to edit and we may have

2 access for a week or so? Is that about right? About

3 another week, we'll probably have access, but we were

4 trying to reconcile this because the ASHRAE Committee

5 is going to meet in June, sometime during the last two

6 weeks of June, and if this committee does vote on

7 provisions for AEDMs, we're going to go ahead and pass

8 that to the ASHRAE Committee to vote on so it can get

9 moving.

10 MS. HOOTMAN: Jill Hootman with Trane. I

11 think overall you said that in here this was an overall

12 consensus on all of these points. Right now I'm not

13 willing to say it's a consensus on not being to witness

14 tests of a unit. I believe we kind of tabled that

15 discussion to hear what some of the other things, but I

16 don't believe it is a consensus. At this point I'm not

17 ready to say that I'm in consensus.

18 MR. EISNER: Do we want to have more

19 discussion on that?

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I'm guessing that you want

21 to table a final vote on this as a whole until we get

22 to --
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1 MS. HOOTMAN: Only that the DOE selects the

2 single, you know the --

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: This part; right?

4 MS. HOOTMAN: -- the single unit spot check

5 of yeah, not being able to witness, regardless of the

6 fact that they're a factory trained installer.

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Or an automatic witness

8 retest.

9 MS. HOOTMAN: Correct.

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay.

11 MR. STARR: I had a question. Louis Starr.

12 Is that on any size equipment or, because the bigger

13 equipment's getting tested at the factory anyway, the

14 larger training or larger air handling equipment

15 because they know how big --

16 MS. HOOTMAN: Larger air handling is not

17 covered in here. You've got everything from very large

18 HVAC and that -- in the case of HVAC, it all can be

19 tested as --

20 MR. HALLEY: For the large boilers we're

21 talking about as well.

22 MS. HOOTMAN: Right.
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1 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. Some of the commercial

2 furnaces cannot be tested.

3 MS. HOOTMAN: That's true. Commercial

4 furnaces, you're right. I forgot about those.

5 MR. EISNER: So even with the automatic test,

6 retest, you're not --

7 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes, I'm not willing to say it

8 yet. I'm not, I'm not saying I might not -- I can't

9 get there yet. I want to see some of the other things.

10 MR. EISNER: And are you talking about some

11 of the other things meaning the last issue that we were

12 still on, on scope, or are you talking about the next

13 phase of the negotiations?

14 MS. HOOTMAN: Things like basic model. Even,

15 yeah, the other parts of what we have here what we were

16 --

17 MR. EISNER: I think there are two ways we

18 can proceed, maybe three. One is we can put this off,

19 which means they can't proceed with sending something

20 to ASHRAE for committee and starting that rulemaking

21 process. But we can do that if that is the consensus

22 of the group.
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1 Second is to see whether there are more than

2 two negative votes so that we know whether we can go

3 ahead without unanimity. And then there might be some

4 variation in between to see if we can resolve it in the

5 next couple days. Any discussion on that? Yes?

6 MR. HON: Charlie Hon. There was something

7 else happened in a different governmental department

8 last week which may put some other people's opinions in

9 a different situation as well. Energy Star is working

10 on the 3.0 for commercial refrigeration self-contained

11 equipment, and they heard that this group was working

12 on the AEDMs and the freestanding commercial

13 refrigeration has always been tested only results for

14 the Energy Star listing and they were looking at the

15 possibility of using AEDMs, the same as the DOE was

16 doing, which may affect somebody else's opinion whether

17 this is a good idea or not, because the energy -- some

18 of the utilities are giving rebates off of this and

19 they were very concerned about the possibility of using

20 AEDMs as a measure for Energy Star giving rebates on

21 front tested equipment.

22 So I think that we owe them that bit of
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1 information, because that's happened within the last

2 week. I objected to it in the meetings and they're

3 going to be in contact probably. Ashley, I will need

4 to have someone, some other name besides yours since

5 you're probably not going to be here.

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: We talked about it. I don't

7 think they've made a decision yet. Chris knew about it

8 all along --

9 MR. HON: Okay.

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- in terms of what we've

11 been doing, and the scope of what we plan to do is much

12 broader than -- I think it's still an issue on the

13 table that hasn't been decided. My understanding was

14 initially they were leaning towards not allowing the

15 use of AEDMs for Energy Star certification purposes, in

16 which case you would always have to take the testing

17 route.

18 But like I said, I know he was open to the

19 discussion. He wanted to hear feedback. He wanted to

20 see how this process went. So by no means is that a

21 definitive decision.

22 MR. HON: Right. But that still could change
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1 other people's opinions if it is a possibility.

2 MR. EISNER: Again, comments, suggestions on

3 how we should proceed on this issue?

4 MR. HALLEY: Geoff Halley with ABMA. I've

5 still some concerns about several things that were

6 similar to what were expressed by Cleaver-Brooks, and

7 that is the difference in size of equipment and it

8 seems to me that although we agree with the efficiency

9 standards that have been defined by DOE, it seems as

10 though we could have some real problems in the

11 certification process.

12 And that is because we've got basically two

13 different market segments, one of which is relatively

14 small with a high unit count, and the other one is

15 large units, but a relatively small unit count. And it

16 seems to me that DOE have relied heavily on the smaller

17 segment, the smaller unit size, capacity size, in

18 developing the standards for testing so far.

19 And I think Cleaver-Brooks expressed some

20 concerns about the BTS 2000 standard for boilers. I

21 also feel that there is some problems in that respect

22 to be on the larger units. I'm not sure that people
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1 really understand the difference in size. It's like

2 comparing a smart car to a school bus. You may be able

3 to get a small unit into a test lab on pallets, the

4 jack pallets.

5 But in the large units, you're probably going

6 to need an 80 ton crane for the largest units. So

7 there's a vast difference in size. There's a -- and

8 certainly we talked about the need for technicians,

9 certified technicians from the factory to do the

10 startup on these things.

11 Not only do I represent ABMA, but I also do a

12 lot of forensic accident investigations as an expert

13 witness and I've seen some pretty impressive accidents

14 on startup, because the guy, although supposedly

15 qualified, didn't get it right. One of them ended up

16 with a $30 million lawsuit.

17 So I think we've -- I'd like people to

18 understand that background in anything we do in this

19 direction as regards to testing large units or -- the

20 problem I see is basically that although they've

21 defined the standards, in terms of efficiency, they

22 didn't put a cap anywhere on the biggest units for
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1 space heating. Maybe a cap, maybe an audit at some

2 point.

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I think from the

4 department's perspective, you know you're talking about

5 a very specific issue to commercial package boilers.

6 That's not to say it's not relevant to these

7 discussions by any means, but one of the things that

8 the department has done, or is getting ready to do, is

9 kick off our role for commercial packaged boilers.

10 Things that would be on the table are the

11 testing standards; if those need to be changed because

12 they can't be utilized.

13 MR. HALLEY: Yeah. Right.

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: If we need to consider a cap

15 to better distinguish those commercial packaged boilers

16 that are really used for space heating versus those

17 that are not, how they are treated. To date the

18 department has been triggered only by the actions of

19 the 90.1 Committee within ASHRAE.

20 So this is the first time that the department

21 will undertake its own rulemaking for those. So, to

22 me, the issues, while very relevant, are really
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1 separate and should be addressed in that proceeding.

2 That being said, we do have regulations on the books

3 right now with standards that will work -- you know,

4 certification and compliance will be applicable to and

5 are applicable to today.

6 MR. HALLEY: Right. Yeah.

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I'm going to ask that you

8 -- I realize that they can't be bifurcated, but at the

9 same time, you know, we try to accommodate the

10 uniqueness of that equipment which can't be tested at a

11 third party lab, or which does need factory trained

12 installers, or which we would go on-site and that types

13 of things, in the negotiations the last two weeks.

14 So think about it with that in mind, because

15 I don't want to hold -- you know, the problem here is

16 we can't hold this for three years while --

17 MR. HALLEY: I understand that.

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: So --

19 MR. HALLEY: I think you're going to get the

20 high unit count by doing what they do. But if you get

21 to a situation where you're going to develop further

22 with different test procedures, please ask ABMA to --
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Oh no, and that's what I'm

2 saying, you know that effort should be kicked off this

3 summer. I made this statement at the ABMA show in

4 January.

5 MR. HALLEY: Yeah, okay. Yeah, I remember

6 you, yeah.

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: I was the one there. I

8 strongly encourage you all to participate, because your

9 participation is key to making that work for you guys

10 and us.

11 MR. HALLEY: That's right. Yeah, yeah, okay.

12 MS. MEYERS: This is Karen with Rheem. I'm

13 just getting feedback that the audio is not working.

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, they're working on it.

15 MS. MEYERS: Okay.

16 MR. SHEBIK: Ron Shebik of Hussman. I just

17 want to, kind of going along with what Jill was saying.

18 As far as allowing the manufacturer to witness the

19 test, I just want to throw in there, I think there is a

20 benefit to giving the manufacturer the option to

21 witness the test.

22 I spoke to people at my company; we have done
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1 quite a variety of testing at multiple third party test

2 labs, and we have found that there is a benefit to

3 having -- more often than not there's a benefit to

4 having the manufacturer on site to measure discharge

5 temperature, to look at discharge temperature, to look

6 at the evaporate temperature, to look at the placement

7 of the simulators.

8 In the long run, it seems to me it would save

9 everyone time to give the manufacturer the option. If

10 the manufacturer has already worked with the lab and is

11 comfortable with the lab, they may or they may opt not

12 to witness the test. But if it's something that

13 they're not familiar with, I think they should be given

14 the option to be present and make sure the setup is

15 correct.

16 I think in the long run, I think it saves

17 everyone time. I don't really see a negative part. I

18 see benefits only.

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I mean we negotiated these

20 two weeks ago with what the department was willing to

21 give, what you guys were willing to give around the

22 table. So Neil, I think I'm of the opinion at this
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1 point that we should vote and see where we are in terms

2 of do - - are we going back two weeks and starting over

3 again? Because I thought that's where we were when we

4 ended the last meeting two weeks ago.

5 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. Are we to vote

6 on all issues in your memo or only those --

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: We can go -- I mean, however

8 everybody wants to do it. You can go, you know, I knew

9 the edits would come definitely, especially with

10 wording, because as I tried to write it down and write

11 it in more detail as it would be reflected in rule

12 language, I expected edits. I didn't expect a complete

13 revisiting of a decision. So ...

14 I think if it's easier to do section by

15 section, that's fine.

16 MR. SACHS: There is one other issue that I

17 want to bring up at the right time, and I just wanted

18 to see whether we were doing a global or --

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: Do you want to do it section

20 by section? Maybe that would be easiest.

21 MR. SACHS: Well, I think we had an issue on

22 the table. We might as well just take that and
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1 whatever sections it covers.

2 MR. EISNER: Do people have problems with

3 every issue? Because we did go through each one. We

4 did resolve them. We did take votes. Nobody said

5 anybody is --

6 MS. HOOTMAN: We did not take a vote on that.

7 We agreed to table that section.

8 MR. EISNER: That's not what I understood

9 that we agreed to table it. The only thing I

10 understood that was unresolved was the last issue that

11 we did not finish on.

12 MS. HOOTMAN: I said for that -- I know I

13 said for now I'm willing -- I want to see how the rest

14 of this goes. So that was not saying I was in

15 consensus.

16 MR. EISNER: That is not what I understood

17 from the discussion. That doesn't mean that it's

18 closed. We can go back to it, but I thought we had

19 agreement on that issue because there were no more than

20 two negative votes and the two negative votes were

21 willing to go ahead. I did not understand that you

22 still had an objection to it. So we can go back.
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1 MS. MEYERS: This is Karen --

2 MS. HOOTMAN: If forced right now -- go

3 ahead.

4 MS. MEYERS: I request we go back, because I

5 remember clearly objecting to the no witness testing.

6 So I'd request that we go back and revisit.

7 MR. EISNER: Okay. Yes.

8 MR. THARP: This is Rusty with Goodman. In

9 HRI meetings we typically have say an official vote, we

10 say ask for everybody for it to say aye, everybody

11 against it to say nay, and asks for any abstentions to

12 record an actual vote number on each one, and I would

13 suggest that we might want to do the same thing.

14 MR. EISNER: We can do that, but understand,

15 when I say are there any objections, and no one says

16 there's an objection, it would be an assumption that

17 everybody's agreed. I understand here, this one

18 particular issue, there's a misunderstanding as to

19 whether they were objecting or not and we don't have

20 the court reporter's notes.

21 What I'm saying is if you want to take a vote

22 and have everybody logged in on each one of them, even
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1 though nobody has raised an objection, we can do that

2 too. You guys decide the rules. But when I say, are

3 there any objections, and no one says there is, I'm

4 assuming that everybody's in agreement.

5 There may be some misunderstanding about

6 abstentions. We can ask for that, but do you want to

7 amend the ground rules to require by name, that each

8 person vote on each issue. It's your decision.

9 All right. Let me ask. Raise your hand and

10 if you're on the phone, please say aye when the hands

11 are raised, does everyone want to change the rules to

12 require a named vote on each issue. I'm sorry. I'll

13 need your voices.

14 MR. BLAKE: The thing isn't working, so give

15 them another number, please.

16 MR. EISNER: And why don't you go ahead with

17 that, because this is important. How long will this

18 take? Let's wait until they finish then and we won't

19 keep getting interrupted.

20 MR. WHITWELL: So you're sending another

21 number?

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.
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1 MR. EISNER: Why don't we wait until they're

2 finished.

3 MR. MYERS: I was going to ask kind of a

4 question to find out where we are on something. I can

5 wait though.

6 MR. EISNER: She's trying to get a record and

7 I think it's very difficult. If everybody could angle

8 their cards a little bit toward the front, the court

9 reporter might have a little easier time knowing who's

10 speaking.

11 MS. BARHYDT: Can everyone on the phone hear

12 the voices in the room okay?

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Is that a no?

14 MS. BARHYDT: That didn't sound like a yes.

15 MR. MEYERS: Troy, can you hear us?

16 MR. SACHS: Marshall, we're not talking.

17 We're waiting for the call in group to be all up on the

18 new line. So this is a test. Can you hear me?

19 MS. MEYERS: I'm getting the same thing.

20 They can hear each other, but they can't hear us.

21 MR. EISNER: Why don't we take a 10-minute

22 break, give them a chance to try and fix this. No
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1 reason to keep sitting here and looking at each other.

2 So take 10 minutes, come back at about 20 to 11:00.

3 (Brief recess.)

4 MR. EISNER: Started again. All right

5 everybody, we got people in contact on the phone again,

6 so let's get back to where we were. The first thing we

7 have to resolve I think is this process issue. Again,

8 I want to stress, you as a group need to decide how you

9 want to run the meetings, whether you want to have each

10 vote registered by name, or whether you want to go

11 informally and say does anybody object. And the basic

12 rule that we wrote was two objections, more than two

13 objections can block consensus. So I was going with

14 the idea that we needed to see whether there were --

15 was any objecting. If not, presumably we have

16 consensus. If we want to register a vote at that time,

17 we can do it. So any comments, any suggestions, or

18 should we just take a vote? Yes?

19 MR. STARR: I just -- this is Louis Starr

20 again. I think this particular issue may have just been

21 a misunderstanding. I think the current way we're

22 wording is fine. It will be quicker at this point.
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1 MR. EISNER: Other thoughts?

2 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers, PVI

3 Industries. There's another -- you mentioned this or

4 that. I suspect the group would be happy if there was

5 good clarity. We are making a judgment on this issue.

6 This serves as our vote. Are there any objections? So

7 that everyone knows that that -- because we do a lot of

8 how do you feel about that. You know, does anybody

9 object to that? As we're trying to come up with

10 something, if at the end of that there was a more

11 formal, this is our voice, our opportunity to settle

12 this issue, does anyone have an objection. So there's

13 clarity that this is that issue that we're settling to

14 serve as a vote.

15 MR. EISNER: Okay. I can do that. I can

16 accept anybody who wants to remind me that I haven't

17 done it at the end of the time, but usually when I've

18 gone onto the next issue, I think we've resolved the

19 one before.

20 I was telling some people at the break that

21 the first negotiated rule making we had a relatively

22 prestigious arbitrator who agreed to work for us. His
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1 agency let him work for us for free because they wanted

2 to see if the process would work well, and they wanted

3 to give us somebody who was very skilled at

4 negotiations. And he would simply say well, we appear

5 to have consensus, so let's go onto the next issue.

6 The idea is people would raise their hand or they'd say

7 something if they didn't think we had consensus.

8 But I will try to make it clear we are voting

9 on the issue that we have been discussing. And if you

10 want, I can also ask if anybody abstains. Again I

11 assume that if somebody had an objection or an

12 abstention, they would say so at the time. Are there

13 any other comments? Yes?

14 MR. KLEISS: This is Jeff at Lochinvar.

15 Would it be doable to have, whatever the proposal is in

16 writing, on the screen, and at the conclusion of our

17 decision, to put in writing what the result is and if

18 there are any negative votes or abstentions to record

19 them?

20 MR. EISNER: Jeff, I thought that's what we

21 were doing. I thought we had it up on the screen and I

22 thought nobody had any more concerns, and that's when I
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1 usually said, nobody's raised any other issues so does

2 anybody object to this. I thought I was saying this

3 language, to what we had on the screen or what we just

4 agreed to but I will try again to be clearer on that.

5 MR. KLEISS: And then we can record that on

6 the screen as well.

7 MR. EISNER: What we can try and do also is,

8 for example if DOE has the resources to do it, to have

9 something circulated right away that reflects what was

10 on the screen, or put it on SharePoint or something

11 like that.

12 MS. BARHYDT: We're working on it. We're

13 working on getting faster.

14 MR. EISNER: I agree with the comment -- that

15 my experience with these kinds of things, it's best to

16 keep it informal. But you have to be comfortable with

17 that, not me. Other thoughts?

18 MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel with Mitsubishi.

19 No, I thought we were pretty much going along with that

20 consensus and you were saying except I do remember that

21 one issue in particular, it was a little cloudy as to

22 where or how things ended.
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1 MR. EISNER: That's fair enough. Any other

2 comments?

3 MR. DOPPLER: But I think it's just that one

4 issue. I think all the other issues were fine.

5 MS. HOOTMAN: I agree.

6 MR. EISNER: Okay. All right, let me make it

7 clear what I think what I think we're agreeing to and

8 then we can take a vote, a consensus type vote. I will

9 make a better effort to make it clear that we are at

10 the end of the -- I think we are at the end of the

11 discussion and it is time to vote to see whether we

12 agree with what we've put up on the screen. And I will

13 ask if anybody objects or abstains. And all of you are

14 free to say to me, don't forget to ask for objections

15 or abstentions, because I could put all the notes down

16 on the page and I'll still forget to look at them. All

17 right. Does anybody object to that? Does anybody

18 abstain? Yes?

19 MS. HOOTMAN: About how you're going to

20 proceed?

21 MR. EISNER: About how we're going to

22 proceed, yes.
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1 MS. HOOTMAN: Okay.

2 MR. EISNER: Okay, no objections? No

3 abstentions? All right, let's go back to the document

4 that's in front of us, the scope issues. The ones that

5 Ashley circulated this weekend, not including the one

6 that we haven't finally resolved, let's talk about what

7 the issues are there. Would you like to proceed by

8 people raising their hand and raising their issue, or

9 should we just start with the first thing that was in

10 the package and go through the package? Thoughts on

11 that?

12 MR. KLEISS: Let's go straight to the

13 objections.

14 MR. EISNER: To the objection that was raised

15 by Karen?

16 MR. KLEISS: Please.

17 MR. EISNER: Okay.

18 MR. ARMANE: I have a question before we go

19 to the objection. Regarding the applicable products,

20 certain commercial products are not listed here, like

21 for example walk-ins.

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct.
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1 MR. AMRANE: Because?

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: They're out of the scope of

3 the negotiations.

4 MR. AMRANE: They are out of the scope of the

5 negotiations?

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: They're not in the

7 negotiations.

8 MR. EISNER: I'm sorry; I didn't understand

9 what the issue was.

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: He asked if walk-in coolers

11 were part of the negotiated rule making, and that was

12 not something that ASHRAE quoted on. It was just

13 commercial HVAC, water heating and CRE.

14 MR. EISNER: Okay. The issue on the table,

15 which I think has to do with the spot test that DOE

16 does, and whether people have a right to observe it,

17 the companies have a right to observe it. Comments?

18 MR. WHITWELL: Bob Whitwell from Carrier.

19 Just clarification. So my understanding is, based on

20 what's written in here, is that there are some

21 exceptions, and under those exceptions manufacturers

22 can be present for the test. Other than that, they
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1 are not. However, if they are not present for that

2 test, they can request a retest and be present for it

3 and that's automatic.

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Absolutely. That's how it's

5 written. That was what we agreed to with you guys last

6 time.

7 MR. EISNER: If you ask, you automatically

8 get a retest.

9 MR. WHITWELL: You automatically get a

10 retest.

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: It just means that you don't

12 have to be onsite and DOE doesn't have to be onsite if

13 the unit passes, right. So it's just when there's an

14 issue and something fails --

15 MS. HOOTMAN: Outside of tolerance.

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Outside of tolerance, the

17 tolerances that we agreed on, you can request an

18 automatic retest, period.

19 MR. WHITWELL: Okay, thanks.

20 MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel with Mitsubishi. So

21 does that mean that, okay that unit that's in there

22 that's being tested would remain and that unit would be
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1 retested? Or are we talking a complete different unit

2 to be retested? Because that's very -- the equipment

3 is very expensive and so at that point --

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's the same unit. It's the

5 same unit. There is a sentence in there that says that

6 the Department and the manufacturer -- let me find it.

7 A retest can be conducted on a different unit of the

8 same model if DOE and the manufacturer agree it is

9 necessary. By default, it will be the same unit.

10 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp with Goodman. In the

11 interest of the third party labs, that unit's not going

12 to stay in the room until both DOE and --

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct. So we would both go

14 to -- they would reset it up. We would all do it. We

15 would all watch it. We would all be there. And it

16 would be automatic if you requested it.

17 MR. THARP: Okay.

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: That was what DOE was willing

19 to give.

20 MR. THARP: Right.

21 MS. MYERS: This is Karen with Rheem. Is

22 that still considered part of the assessment testing or
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1 is that --

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct. This is all

3 verification. We haven't gone past that.

4 MS. MYERS: Okay.

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's all about getting to a

6 valid test.

7 MR. ARMANE: Karim Armane with AHRI. What's

8 the reason for not attending the first test? Money?

9 MS. BARHYDT: Government resources.

10 MR. AMRANE: But then if we ask for a second

11 test, who'd be traveling?

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think it's a variety of

13 things, right. I think that, you know, the going in

14 position that if you -- my going in position is that a)

15 DOE administers valid test procedures, and b) that if

16 third party labs have enough capability to run the DOE

17 test procedure. And I think that is DOE's position on

18 this, and for me to say that both myself and somebody

19 else needs to be at a lab just so that they can

20 adequately run a DOE test procedure I don't think is a

21 valid position for the department.

22 MR. AMRAME: But you're still allowing it for
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1 the second test.

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: We are allowing (inaudible).

3 We want you to be comfortable with the test result as

4 do we. So we are willing to give, yes. We do not think

5 it's necessary for every single test we do in a third

6 party lab.

7 MR. EISNER: Do we have any numbers on the

8 percent that fail?

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's really small.

10 MR. AMRANE: We don't think we're saying

11 that, we're saying upon request, if somebody requests

12 that. It might be that for 95 percent of the time that

13 --

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Karim, the real issue here is

15 that for units that come out with a potential invalid

16 reading anyway, that is where there will be an issue.

17 For those that pass or that have a valid reading with

18 intolerance, there is not discussion to be had, right.

19 So if you get an automatic retest and you get

20 to be onsite for that, if there is a potential invalid

21 rating issue, what is the problem? You're getting what

22 you want anyway?
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1 MR. AMRANE: You're right, except that you

2 are doing a second test and you spend more money.

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: And the department gave to

4 that, because that is what you want. So we're coming

5 to the table, we're saying we're willing to give, we're

6 willing to work with you. We understand it's

7 important. But our position is that these third party

8 labs have expertise in testing and that our test

9 procedures are written in a manner that they should be

10 able to be administered without DOE's supervision or

11 manufacturer's supervision.

12 For the units that need a factory trained

13 installer for BRFs, we've made provisions in there that

14 by default someone will be there. For units that

15 cannot be tested at a third party lab, we've made

16 provisions that they can be tested at a manufacturer's

17 facility. Obviously, you will be there. What is the

18 real issue? Why is this a problem?

19 MR. EISNER: Pardon?

20 MR. ARMANE: I'm not saying it's a problem.

21 I'm not saying it's a problem. We're just saying that

22 to avoid having to do possibly a second test, it's
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1 really a cost issue here. Which should be of concern

2 to you as well, because DOE is going to be paying for

3 it, right?

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, I'm not sure DOE would

5 be paying for someone to travel to every single test

6 you requested, when 90 percent of them might come out

7 valid. I mean I'm not sure which one's more cost

8 effective here.

9 MR. SACHS: Let me -- this is Harvey and I

10 want to take a slightly different perspective. The

11 first thing I want to do is just re-emphasize what

12 Geoff Halley started out this morning with. That we

13 really have two kinds of equipment here, not whether

14 it's CRE or a water heater, but whether it's one off

15 engineered product of very large capacity, and that's

16 been approximated as can't be done in the third party

17 lab, or whether it's some sort of a production schedule

18 product.

19 And I think this issue of the unwitnessed

20 test is really about the second category. The stuff

21 that is production series can be trucked to a lab and

22 can be tested. The one reason that -- and that
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1 generally is stuff for which we might have a factory

2 trained technician, but it's not likely to be a factory

3 person coming in to set up and commission the product.

4 It's not likely. One of Frank's boilers.

5 The reason that I'm sort of in favor of this,

6 call it blind installation and testing, because it's a

7 test of the test procedure but also a test for the

8 manufacturer's instructions. It is a close simulation

9 of the best case we're going to see in the field when a

10 mechanical contractor gets that piece of equipment and

11 is strapping it down.

12 And in that sense, if it fails, it is

13 possibly only an indication of an instruction manual

14 problem. So I think it's an important signal that we

15 can get at relatively little cost by having that first

16 step for serious production items be done just by the

17 third party lab. Is that helpful, Karim?

18 MS. HOOTMAN: Jill Hootman at Trane. Ninety19 five percent of the time, I would agree that we're very

20 confident with the labs. I'm worried about new

21 technology, new things, never been tested there, always

22 been tested within ourselves, and the very first time
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1 the lab is presented with it, regardless of how good I

2 am at writing instructions, there will be something,

3 right, that is not right?

4 And we've spent a lot of money on a piece of

5 equipment and a test, and it's not right. And I don't

6 think that that's really the best use of the

7 department's money when it could have been for a very

8 small fee of a trip taken care of in the beginning.

9 MR. KOJAK: This is Mike Kojak with UL. I

10 think it also says in there if the third party lab has

11 questions, we can raise those questions with the DOE

12 and then contact the manufacturer so we can all discuss

13 it. When tests are being conducted at our lab, our

14 project engineers, before the test unit even goes in

15 the lab, looks over the equipment, looks over the test

16 plan, makes sure that they're familiar with everything

17 that's going to happen. That's the time, before it

18 goes it even goes into the lab, that the questions

19 would be raised and then they would contact the DOE and

20 then the manufacturer would be getting involved.

21 So if it's a brand new technology, I would

22 assume that's the avenue it would take, instead of just
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1 a run of the mill type of test.

2 MR. HALLEY: Geoff Halley with ABMA. I think

3 there's another factor that may -- sort of ought to be

4 considered and that's simply the safety aspects of

5 startup. I think that the manufacturer of certain

6 types of equipment ought to be aware that the test is

7 going to take place, because he may know some things

8 that the test lab does not know.

9 There seems to be, in certain areas, a clash

10 between energy saving requirements and safety

11 requirements.

12 MR. EISNER: Is there any language that can

13 be put in the product material that the company comes

14 up with, saying get this equipment as tested, the

15 following ought to be done, kind of language?

16 MR. HALLEY: I think we can probably come up

17 with something. I don't think there always is at this

18 point.

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, for those products I

20 would assume --

21 MR. HALLEY: We're probably going to be

22 testing them in the manufacturers facility as well, but
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1 --

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: I was going to say, I think

3 for those products, a) you'll be in a manufacturer's

4 facility with them onsite or b) they required a factory

5 trained installer, so by default he would have to be

6 onsite.

7 MR. HALLEY: Right, right.

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: And that's how we wrote

9 these, so ...

10 MR. HALLEY: Okay, fine.

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah.

12 MR. EISNER: Any further discussion of the

13 issue? Karen?

14 MS. MEYERS: This is Karen Meyers with Rheem,

15 and I'm just going to make the same comment I've made

16 several times, but you know since this is -- it's

17 commercial equipment which is very complicated. It's

18 not residential equipment. You know, I just think to

19 be the most efficient that we can be, that if you are

20 going to do an assessment test on a commercial piece of

21 equipment, contact the manufacturer.

22 Say it's scheduled for this date. Let us
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1 know if you wish to be present at least for the setup

2 and startup of the unit. It's -- to me, I guess I'm

3 struggling with -- because once you take that

4 commercial piece of equipment out of the lab and you

5 reschedule another one and you put it back in there,

6 someone who's built commercial equipment for many, many

7 years, and understands the complexity of the test, it

8 just seems to be the most efficient way for us to move

9 forward.

10 Not trying to influence the test or anything,

11 just trying to do what -- to get as accurate a test as

12 we can and get it done right the first time. I would

13 say that typically in AAHRI program, when a commercial

14 piece of equipment is tested, there is maybe -- I mean

15 what would you say the percentage is that the

16 manufacturer is talking with the lab during one of

17 those tests, because of the complexity, and there is a

18 lot of new technology coming forth.

19 I mean if you, if you're testing one of my

20 seven-and-a-half ton pieces of equipment and you let me

21 know, I'm probably not going to be too worried about

22 it. But if you're testing a 25 or 30 ton piece of
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1 equipment that's much more complex, I'm probably going

2 to say, you know this is not your average run of the

3 mill piece of equipment. I'd like to be present to

4 make sure it's setup and the test is run accurately.

5 So I'm not -- I think allowing the

6 manufacturer to be present is just making sure it's

7 done accurate, and I don't think you're going to find

8 that they're going to want to be present for every

9 single test. So I mean that's just my perspective on

10 it. It's, you know, this is not something where I

11 think you're going to have a DOE representative at

12 every single test.

13 MR. SACHS: Karen, this is Harvey, and I've

14 been listening to you and Jill and others, and I'm

15 hearing a focus on early installations of new

16 technologies. And I'm also hearing DOE is doing a vast

17 variety of things from stuff that's been on the market,

18 to stuff that's new.

19 And I wonder if DOE might be willing to

20 consider a cut which says for products that have been

21 on the market less than X months, or two years, or some

22 such number, and are of capacity above such and such,
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1 things which they would be likely to send somebody out

2 for, that it can be witnessed on this first test. And

3 for things that are mature production products, we're

4 just going to go ahead.

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't, I mean, I don't

6 think we're -- what we can't do is commit to allowing

7 someone on site all the time. There are going to be

8 circumstances where DOE can't be there, period. And so

9 what I think our position is, is this is the best we

10 can do.

11 We will -- we can commit to if something

12 fails, you guys automatically retesting, because that's

13 a smaller number we can get our hands around it. But I

14 don't think to say that you know -- to commit to

15 allowing someone there all the time.

16 Harvey, I get your point of you know in

17 certain circumstances where there's new technology or

18 you know innovative designs or that kind of stuff, high

19 efficiency equipment, you know, but I don't know that

20 we could commit to --

21 MR. SACHS: Well, I would like to ask -- what

22 are the words --
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, what are the words? I

2 mean, what is the line?

3 MR. SACHS: I would propose words which have

4 a little bit of fill in to be done for products which

5 have been on the market for less than 18 months.

6 MS. BARHYDT: So define products that have

7 been on the market for less than 18 months.

8 MR. SACHS: If you've got information that

9 it's a certified product that's being sold.

10 MS. BARHYDT: So if they tweak an old design

11 and it's new, but it's older technology, that would

12 qualify.

13 MR. SACHS: Well, I have the second clause.

14 MS. BARHYDT: Okay, sorry.

15 MR. SACHS: And the second clause, which is

16 in the upper most 20 percent of capacity classes

17 offered for that product class. So it's now

18 exclusively stuff that's new to the market and big and

19 expensive. So that would be a straw man. I'm not

20 concerned about the particular numbers, but that's the

21 way I'm trying to formulate this very small exception.

22 MS. BARHYDT: And big and expensive is not
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1 already covered by the provisions that are already up

2 there?

3 MR. SACHS: Well, apparently not to the

4 satisfaction of the people who are making some of the

5 big and expensive stuff.

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: So what was your top 20

7 percent qualifier on? One more time.

8 MR. SACHS: The top 20 -- again, and I'm not

9 sure that's the right number --

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

11 MR. SACHS: Of capacity classes. We can do

12 it by model numbers, we can do it by size classes, and

13 either way we're trying to say it's the big stuff that

14 is also new.

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: Wouldn't it be the big stuff

16 that's efficient? I mean, if we're talking about new

17 designs, if we're talking about innovative designs,

18 aren't we talking about that for which is being entered

19 into commerce that has new technologies and new ways of

20 doing things, so it's really not at the standard level.

21 We're talking about those that are pushing the realm.

22 MR. SACHS: Okay, so --
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1 MS. HOOTMAN: Well, I don't know. This is

2 Jill at Trane. I don't know, Ashley, because right now

3 we know that you are looking at the IER, but right the

4 metric is full load. And we certainly could be still

5 at a very minimum full load level and pressing the

6 envelope on part loads.

7 So you know it's not necessarily new or

8 advanced in the full load, but it's new and advanced in

9 how it might be approaching the part load of

10 efficiency. And you know I also envision right now I

11 can see -- and I've said this last time -- the test

12 standard is in the process of changing, because we

13 recognize right now there are products that are going

14 to come out on the marketplace that it doesn't address,

15 can't be tested by the test standard. They're not

16 tested properly by the test standard, so ...

17 MR. EISNER: Is there a way of --

18 MS. HOOTMAN: So in that catch-22, where you

19 haven't adopted it yet, and we have an old test

20 standard, is there a way that on our listings or

21 certifications that we say, yes, this is one of the

22 models. And it would probably only be checked, like I
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1 say, a small percentage of the time.

2 MR. EISNER: I don't know enough about how

3 the process works, so my suggestion may not work. But

4 I'm assuming you start to manufacture something that

5 you're going to sell that you know would be subject to

6 their spot testing. Is there a process where you could

7 write the rule that said, the manufacturer, when it

8 believes it is developing a product that would be

9 subject to DOE testing and requires a waiver from the

10 no attendance at the spot check, the manufacturer can

11 ask or request a waiver if such a test is conducted?

12 DOE can talk to you about why it is you think

13 the product is unique, why you think it requires your

14 presence there, and they could say we agree or we don't

15 agree. Presumably, if they get a few of these a year,

16 the resources will allow it. If they get hundreds of

17 them a year, they may say, we only can pick the ones

18 that are at the top of the scale.

19 MR. BAUMAN: Can I -- Jeff Bauman -- I think

20 some are saying a lot of valid points have been brought

21 up, Harvey, everybody's been bringing up valid points.

22 I think, when I go back and think about, I'll say the
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1 compromises we made last week or two weeks ago when we

2 got to the points where we said, a manufacturer cannot

3 only in their instruction manuals, but they can provide

4 additional information to the labs that say, a) if this

5 is your new piece of equipment, when I had equipment

6 that I'm listing or whatever, I can provide additional

7 information to DOE labs and say, this is how it has to

8 be tested, where's there's particular or we want -- I

9 don't think DOE would object to part of your

10 instructions.

11 Say the lab needs to contact us if they're

12 going to test this model. Because I think -- I think

13 about your point, Harvey, too, and I mean, some -- no

14 one's models that -- we could do that new technology

15 today; you guys might not test it for two years. So

16 now I'm out of that realm that I need to, so I

17 understand it's difficult to get to that point, too.

18 But when you have a new technology --

19 MS. HOOTMAN: Somehow go back and recheck it

20 --

21 MR. BAUMAN: Right.

22 MS. HOOTMAN: -- you know or something. Like
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1 you said the waiver, go back and say, okay, now it's

2 out of that.

3 MR. BAUMAN: And in some of the provisions I

4 think you've already thought we agreed on last week,

5 and issues of safety, I think, you know, we -- hope

6 Mike's not going to burn down his lab when he tests for

7 the unit or whatever, and I think we have that faith

8 and confidence that they're going to be able to at

9 least at that level, be able to test the unit without

10 there being too much of a safety issue, although there

11 could be some. And if they would come with something

12 where they think it's going to be a safety issue, they

13 have the opportunity to contact the manufacturer to let

14 them know.

15 So I think that's -- I think a lot of this

16 has sort of been, if you think about some of the

17 compromise and the automatic, you know, there's

18 automatic retest and things, I think a lot of the

19 issues can be addressed in the things that we've

20 already included in the wording that we've agreed to on

21 some of the additional requirements.

22 And again, costs, you know, Karim, I think
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1 had valid points about the cost of additional retests,

2 but DOE's, as far as I know, they're paying for both

3 tests. You know and they're saying that's a better way,

4 better spending of their money on the economics of it,

5 so you know I don't know why we would have objection to

6 that.

7 They're paying for both tests. You know and

8 I can understand, when you think about how many units

9 they test, do they really -- and think about your

10 products, but if you're trying to be level-handed

11 across the board, you know, you want to either go in

12 one direction or another. If they have to test 800 or

13 more units a year, that is a lot of money for them to

14 have to.

15 And if 90 percent of those are, they don't

16 have to, then economically it probably makes more sense

17 to do it witnessing the retest, and then for them to

18 pay the second test, so. Just my thoughts.

19 MR. EISNER: Other comments, thoughts?

20 MS. DANE: I'm Mary Dane from Traulsen. Is

21 there a way that we can discuss maybe some of the

22 things we'd like to see the labs be able to do? Like
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1 you wouldn't send our unit to a lab that wasn't

2 certified to do a UL 471 test, and that the person

3 certified that's going to be doing the test on the

4 equipment, would at least understand the safety

5 standard to working on that, that they weren't just

6 going to send it and have the VCR guy do the testing

7 that particular day, because that might help alleviate

8 some of the issues.

9 And I don't know if this is the place we want

10 to talk about it or we want to talk about it in the

11 slides where you were talking about the 17025. I just

12 want to make sure that --

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's coming.

14 MS DANE: Okay. I just wanted to make sure

15 that we brought that up before we get too far in the

16 discussion --

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. I mean laboratory

18 accreditation requirements go through a third party,

19 and for in-house laboratory are on the table.

20 MS. DANE: Okay.

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Absolutely.

22 MS. DANE: Now, the other question I had was
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1 related to -- there was some discussion about -- and

2 this was more for the HVAC people and the furnaces, is

3 they were talking about holes in their ductwork in the

4 wrong places and things like that, is there anything

5 that precludes us from being able to put the thermal

6 couples, pre-thermal couples some of the equipment

7 before we send it?

8 Or does that fly in the face of -- you know,

9 because once you cut a hole in something, you can't

10 test it, you have to send it back. So I mean we're

11 asking is there a way that we can help show where those

12 things would be, and I know it takes away from the

13 secrecy of selecting a piece of equipment, but ...

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, I think just depends.

15 I don't think our answer is going to be yes, you can

16 always do that.

17 MS. DANE: Okay.

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: You know to the extent we get

19 to the point of thinking we need that, that could be

20 part of our selection process. I mean the realization

21 is of the ones we've tested to date, we've -- you know,

22 these are ones that we haven't gotten from any of you
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1 in the room.

2 MS. DANE: Okay.

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, you know, to say that we

4 all -- you know, we've been able to test them; we've

5 been able to run a program one way or the other, you

6 know, of mostly non-custom built to order type things.

7 So we've been able to find them.

8 MS. DANE: So there's going to be continued

9 discussion on how you go about selecting a lab, so we

10 might be able to alleviate some of our concerns at that

11 point?

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Sure, sure. I mean, to the

13 extent that would alleviate some of the concerns in

14 terms of adding additional requirements to the labs

15 capabilities or accreditation requirements. But keep

16 in mind, it's also going to be turned around as to why

17 don't you guys also need them?

18 MS. DANE: But we would not send our

19 commercial refrigeration to be tested by a VCR guy --

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, no. I completely

21 understand.

22 MS. DANE: Okay.
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: But if Mike needs to be

2 competent in standard X, Y, and Z, then to be

3 comparable, your lab needs to be competent in X, Y, and

4 Z, whatever that may be. That's how that discussion,

5 you know. But that is for what are laboratory

6 accreditation requirements and what should be

7 considered?

8 MS. DANE: Okay. Thank you.

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, absolutely.

10 MR. EISNER: Okay. Other thoughts?

11 MR. WHITWELL: I have another; this is Bob

12 Whitwell from Carrier. John Mandyck is on the phone.

13 He's monitoring the discussion and he's thrown out

14 another possibility for discussion. And that would be

15 that since DOE has stated that the issue with

16 manufacturers being there for every test, it's a

17 financial, a budgetary issue.

18 Would it be a possibility for manufacturers

19 to pay for DOE to be present, in order to be able to be

20 at that test?

21 MS. BARHYDT: No.

22 MR. WHITWELL: No?
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1 MS. BARHYDT: Government rules don't allow

2 it.

3 MR. WHITWELL: Just throwing it out there.

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: A lot of government rules and

5 a lot of years' worth of paperwork. If it would even

6 be possible. Just for a single year.

7 MR. MANDYCK: Yeah, but what if it's

8 structured as a fee?

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: We can't do fees.

10 MS. BARHYDT: We don't have statutory

11 authority for that.

12 MR. SACHS: No good idea will go unpunished.

13 MR. SHEBIK: Ron Shebik with Hussman. I

14 guess maybe trying to bring the group together here, is

15 the concern if the manufacturer would want to be

16 onsite, is it because the integrity of the test, DOE

17 would not -- I mean DOE is paying for a test,

18 regardless of the lab.

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think it's two things. I

20 mean Harvey hit it on the head. If you think that our

21 test procedures, a third party testing lab, your

22 installation manuals and any additional guidance you're
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1 giving us, along with the fact that the test lab has

2 the ability to talk to you when they leave their hands

3 if they need to, is not sufficient to test your

4 product.

5 To me we have a larger issue, in that it

6 could be a test procedure issue. That could be an

7 installation guide issue. It's just a larger issue

8 generally that we don't have a way that a product's

9 performance can be verified without you doing it

10 yourself.

11 And I think that what we've done here is say,

12 okay, before we will declare a valid test, we will give

13 it the benefit of the doubt to you guys and say hey,

14 what -- here's the results. Here's everything we have,

15 here's what happened, we need to have a discussion.

16 And as part of that discussion you can say, I

17 want a retest and I want to be onsite. So at that

18 point, I just, I guess I don't understand. I mean, one

19 of the pathways we could go down here I think at this

20 point is, another thing that Harvey suggested, the

21 department could say, okay, we'll allow you to say 10

22 percent of your models that you've certified the
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1 department, you'd like to be witnessed upfront, or put

2 some cap.

3 Maybe 10 percent is not the right number.

4 Maybe 20 percent is not the right number. But we would

5 know at the outset that that's what you wanted to do.

6 But then I think we re-talk about that automatic

7 retest.

8 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah, that's right.

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: You know, you weigh what you

10 want here. This is an automatic retest for failures

11 and you get it. You get the right to do it no matter

12 what, whether it's a valid one or whether it's not, and

13 the results may be identical.

14 But if you want us to go down a pathway of

15 considering something like you get to say 10 percent on

16 site, then I think the department gets to say, okay, we

17 need to renegotiate automatic retests. And I think

18 you're -- this is the, you know, your automatic retest

19 where you get to be onsite for everything, is really

20 where the definitive point is of coming out with a

21 potential invalid rating. I mean weigh what options

22 you may want here from us.
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1 MR. SHEBIK: Okay. I understand what you're

2 saying. This Ron Shebik from Hussman. I understand

3 what you're saying. My concern is not putting down a

4 number that we want to be present at 10 percent or 20

5 percent. It's we have used quite a few third party labs

6 over the years for testing and they don't -- we see

7 product installed above the low limit so you don't have

8 your air curtain, we don't see the proper monitoring of

9 the evaporator temperature.

10 We see a lot of things that are going on out

11 there that if you had somebody onsite, right away they

12 would know here's what you need to look -- you need to

13 look at that. You need to check this. You need to

14 check that. It would save time. It would save time

15 for everybody. I'm not --

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Those are our options, I

17 think.

18 MR. SHEBIK: If you don't --

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: From the department.

20 MR. SHEBIK: Okay.

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, to argue your

22 argument, then you're advocating for exactly what Mary
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1 is, lab accreditation and auditing requirements, both

2 on third party labs and manufacturing labs.

3 MR. SHEBIK: I can't say for all

4 manufacturers, but I think if the manufacturer is

5 comfortable with the lab, they're familiar with the

6 lab, I don't think they're going to be sending many

7 there. I don't think there'd be -- I don't think they

8 would happen. I honestly don't.

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: You're asking me to commit to

10 that without knowing that. I don't think that's

11 reasonable.

12 MS. SHEBIK: I'm just trying to bring the

13 group together here, because we're spending a lot of

14 time on this topic, so ...

15 MR. EISNER: Yes.

16 MR. STEPHENS: Phil Stephens, HTP. I think

17 we've agreed we've narrowed it down to what's important

18 to these groups. It's the high efficiency, the

19 innovative, and the large capacity units. Could we

20 further narrow it down to say the first time the

21 product in a basic model group or product family has

22 been audited?
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1 That would significantly reduce the burden on

2 DOE for the onsite, and I think that may also meet your

3 objectives for what you're saying if it's linked to

4 that first case. Would that work?

5 MR. EISNER: You want to respond?

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, I mean, two things that

7 you want do, a high capacity, high efficiency, first

8 time, I don't know that -- like I said, I don't we

9 necessarily have an issue with that, but it's going to

10 be where do you draw that line?

11 MR. EISNER: By that you mean how you define

12 those --

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Uh-hm. And it's going to be

14 different for every single, I'm going to say validation

15 class is the language I went with here, product class,

16 whatever, however we want to say it.

17 MS. MEYERS: So this Karen with Rheem. My

18 question is when DOE does a test, are they solely going

19 to rely on what is in the I&O to run that test?

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Let's see.

21 MS. HOOTMAN: No, we have notes.

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: There's notes there. It
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1 says, "DOE will supply the following additional

2 information to the lab for testing. Any additional

3 information that is needed regarding test setup or

4 testing will be provided from the manufacturer or its

5 third party representative, to DOE through the

6 certification process.

7 "DOE will then provide this information to

8 the laboratory, as long as it's in accordance with the

9 DOE test procedure. The laboratory may not use any

10 additional information beyond that. However, the

11 laboratory may request additional information on setup,

12 installation, or testing as needed, from the

13 Department."

14 So that would seem to say, no. You know, you

15 may provide information, additional information that is

16 necessary to test your product. That being said, it

17 cannot be in conflict with our test procedure.

18 MR. WHITWELL: No, but it doesn't -- sorry.

19 Bob Whitwell at Carrier. But it doesn't necessarily

20 have to be in the installation, operation.

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct.

22 MR. WHITWELL: Because there are things that
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1 would be required to run the DOE test procedure, that

2 the installed customers don't care about.

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Do not -- in the I&O. That's

4 correct.

5 MR. WHITWELL: Right.

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: You just have to certify it

7 to DOE when you certify whatever concept we come up

8 with.

9 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, so we still have to work

10 out what the process is for that to be done.

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct.

12 MS. MEYERS: So if you're testing a unit with

13 an economizer in it, then would you remove the

14 economizer before you tested the unit?

15 MR. WHITWELL: If the instructions say do so.

16 The lab instructions are there.

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: It doesn't account for it;

18 correct.

19 MS. HOOTMAN: So there's still a --

20 MS. MEYERS: So I mean, you're going to have

21 to let us know, because there's all these factory22 supplied options, so if you were to test a unit that
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1 had -- I mean and it's highly possible, you can get 10

2 different, a multiple number of factory supplied

3 options, you're going to remove all of those from the

4 unit before you run the test, and significantly alter

5 the unit.

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Nope.

7 MS. MEYERS: But if it not accounted for --

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, he said the economizer.

9 He's correct. The economizer is not accounted for the

10 test procedure.

11 MS. MEYERS: Well, if I have a CO2 sensor, if

12 I have an economizer, if I have --

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, I think we're getting

14 a little --

15 MS. MEYERS: Well, I mean, but that's what

16 I'm trying to explain the complexity of these units is

17 huge.

18 MR. EISNER: If we can have one person

19 talking at a time, the court reporter -- excuse me a

20 second. We've got a court reporter who's got to capture

21 all of this. We can't have two and three people

22 talking at a time. She's not getting paid enough.
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1 MS. MEYERS: Well, I just, you know, I'm

2 trying to understand how this process is -- you're

3 asking us to give on not being able to witness a test

4 on a unit that's likely to be -- most of them are one5 offs. And so our concern is that these units, many of

6 them are very unique.

7 I can look through my SKU units of commercial

8 and you know, probably the majority of them, I sell one

9 a year of. So because it's going to a specific

10 application and so you're going to pull one of these

11 units -- I need to understand, and I need to be

12 comfortable if I can't be present for this test, that

13 you know how that's going to work.

14 And so I'm asking for clarification on that

15 and I -- you know, to get comfortable with where you

16 want me to go, I need some answers.

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: I guess I don't understand

18 what you're not comfortable with, because if your unit

19 potentially doesn't meet its rating outside of

20 tolerance, you can be there. What is the exact issue?

21 MS. MEYERS: Well --

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: If it passes, then what does
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1 it matter?

2 MS. MEYERS: Well, you know, a lot of these

3 factory installed options that come with these units,

4 again, it goes back to -- I keep using this word, but

5 the complexity of the process and is the lab going to

6 know if they get a unit with several factory supplied

7 options, how to correctly setup and test that unit and

8 measure it?

9 MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel with Mitsubishi.

10 Just a clarifying point. So DOE would order the unit.

11 Okay, so is it possible that a lot of these very

12 complex units are not something that are in stock?

13 MS. HOOTMAN: They're not in stock.

14 MR. DOPPEL: Okay. So would, I mean, would

15 DOE order something -- I mean how would DOE get ahold

16 of these one-off units?

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: We go to them. We go to you.

18 MR. DOPPEL: Okay, so you would ask the

19 manufacturer to produce that unit.

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Uh-hm.

21 MR. DOPPEL: Okay. So then does the

22 manufacturer know that this unit is going to be going
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1 to test?

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Absolutely.

3 MR. DOPPEL: Okay. So then that's kind of

4 notification to the manufacturer. You know that -- I

5 think we need to get down to the detail of how this all

6 works, because there's a lot of things being thrown out

7 that I think are confusing the issue.

8 And if we, you know, maybe we even need to

9 put in there on the paper, that DOE would -- it seems

10 to me that manufacturers would not have issues with

11 items that are in stock, and that it's just the item --

12 I'm just throwing that out as a thought, because that's

13 where it's really coming down to.

14 MS. MEYERS: It depends.

15 MR. DOPPEL: The complexity of the system.

16 MS. MEYERS: If you have a large national

17 account that you keep units in stock for, but it's

18 specific to that national account, that specification,

19 then you know it would be considered a stock unit, but

20 you might sell you know --

21 MR. DOPPEL: But it's a one-off.

22 MS. MEYERS: Right.
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1 MR. DOPPEL: Because it's specific, yeah.

2 MS. MEYERS: Because it's specific to that

3 national account's requirements.

4 MR. DOPPEL: So it seems that, in order to

5 get a valid test, I mean it should be something that is

6 a basic system without one-off accessories and whatnot.

7 Is that, so it -- I mean, is that something that we

8 could work out that DOE would order a unit for tests

9 that is --

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think that gets to the next

11 point; right? I mean, I don't think that changes the

12 process of how it works, in my opinion. Because by

13 default, before DOE has determined that anything is

14 invalid, you get to be onsite, period. So by default,

15 that happens before we can even make a determination of

16 an invalid rating.

17 Now, whether it's the first time or the

18 second time, I'm not clear why it matters, but you get

19 to be there. You have, we both have to agree there's a

20 valid test that occurred, and then a determination is

21 made. There are no repercussions until that point.

22 So you know, whether we order a fancy, very
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1 complex system or whether we order a base system, I

2 think it's to the topic that was supposed to be today,

3 which is grouping of models and how we might get to

4 that point. But I think that the process still works

5 the same, irrespective.

6 I mean, like I said, I think the Department's

7 position at this point is one of two things. If you

8 guys want us to allow you the flexibility to declare,

9 on the certification report, a certain percentage of

10 models that you always want to be there for, then I

11 think we renegotiate the automatic retest.

12 If you would prefer that no matter what

13 fails, whether it's a common, complex, or otherwise, no

14 matter what potentially fails, not fails, potentially

15 has a ratings issue, you always get to do an automatic

16 retest and be there, no matter what type of unit it is,

17 then you keep that option, which is where we ended the

18 discussion last week.

19 So I think those are the Department's -- at

20 this point.

21 MR. EISNER: Can we focus --

22 MS. HOOTMAN: Could you have two tests?
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1 Could you have a choice in those two tests, in your, in

2 whatever documentation that we certify --

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: You do one and you

4 automatically give up your right to a retest, no matter

5 what. As we're doing in that certification, we choose,

6 right, you know, I want this one or I want this one?

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: As long as it cannot exceed.

8 MS. HOOTMAN: Cannot exceed what?

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. A certain percentage

10 of your models' certified. Because we -- I mean, I

11 think the key here is I can't commit to --

12 MS. HOOTMAN: Trying to figure out what your

13 commitment is.

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, I know that roughly

15 failure rates, while they're going to go, are not going

16 to be a hundred percent of the models I grab. So the

17 limiting of what I'm going to do in terms of resources,

18 I'm not opposed to that.

19 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah, it's more complicated to

20 implement, but we can do that.

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: And it's obviously more

22 complicated in our, in whatever documentation that we
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1 have and --

2 MS. HOOTMAN: Right.

3 MR. EISNER: Yes.

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: But if you were to declare

5 it, then you would automatically give up your right to

6 a retest.

7 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah.

8 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers. I don't

9 know if this would satisfy the manufacturers of the

10 custom equipment, but I think it's something -- my

11 sense is that DOE could work with it, if it would

12 satisfy those manufacturers with this concern, and that

13 is that you -- these units that we're talking about I

14 believe are custom units.

15 So DOE is going to have to talk with you to

16 get the unit. So they're no longer secret, if using

17 that word advisedly, if at that point the manufacturer

18 were to recommend, as opposed to I guess choose, the

19 DOE gets in your best interest if we have some dialogue

20 on this and this may be one of those where you want me

21 at DOE, you would rather have me there on the front end

22 to minimize their cost of a problem.
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1 If you say this is a complex unit. I think

2 you're going to want somebody there from the

3 manufacturer to set this up. If it's in DOE's court to

4 say no, we're going to test it this first time, and

5 then we'll give you the automatic opportunity to

6 retest. At least then we have provided DOE with

7 notification that this is a unit that has complex

8 accessories, or has special setup needs, where they can

9 determine whether they want to take advantage of the

10 manufacturer's expertise, or if they want to just move

11 ahead and test without that.

12 MS. HOOTMAN: This is Jill from Trane. The

13 only problem I have with that is what Karen alluded to,

14 is doing it right the first time. Chances are, I can

15 see where that unit, we got to build another one.

16 Because they've now cut it somewhere or done something

17 to it and we got to build another one.

18 And so now we're back to spending more money.

19 I'm assuming spending more of the Department's money,

20 which I guess I'm just trying to be a good citizen and

21 I don't think that you need to necessarily do that when

22 you could have done it right the first time.
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1 MR. EISNER: Again --

2 MS. HOOTMAN: But as a manufacturer, if I had

3 the choice right from the beginning to say, no, I want

4 to witness test this product family, I understand I

5 would give up the right then for the second retest. So

6 I'm saying, yes, I want to do it right the first time.

7 Provide you one, it's that test, I'm there, you're

8 there, whatever.

9 MS. BARHYDT: So to make sure that we're

10 talking about the same thing, if you select model X as

11 being one that you would witness, we're not saying just

12 that you would give up a retest on that model X. We're

13 saying that on model Y, you also give up that retest.

14 MR. HURST: Why would you do that?

15 MS. HOOTMAN: Why would you do that? Why

16 couldn't you just -- why couldn't we, you know, we're

17 uploading whatever we're going to do, why couldn't we

18 select that by the models?

19 MS. BARHYDT: I'm talking about automatic

20 retest on all the other 80 percent or whatever.

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: No.

22 MR. RIVEST: (Inaudible) decision about
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1 whatever they would want to -- my understanding is

2 there's an upfront decision about whether they want to

3 assist or not, but they have a limited amount of

4 opportunities to do that, so that it's 20 percent of

5 the time.

6 MS. HOOTMAN: Or something. I can't come up

7 something in my head --

8 MR. RIVEST: And then that allows the

9 manufacturer to determine what the risk factors are for

10 that manufacturer, the size and complexity and years of

11 service may not, or efficiency may not be the right --

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I agree with that. I

13 think that the Department's okay with that position,

14 such that we keep it to a low number. I mean, such

15 that it's like 10 percent of the models you certify or

16 something along those lines.

17 MR. RIVEST: (Inaudible).

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, I mean, something along

19 the lines of low -- otherwise, you're asking pretty

20 much for a full commitment and that's something that

21 we're not going to do.

22 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah, right.
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1 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers, PVI. I just

2 want to clarify that there is still the choice to do it

3 the way that's shown on the board.

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, always. That is --

5 MR. MYERS: Yeah. So if the manufacturer

6 doesn't opt to do the 10 or 20 percent path, they can

7 do this.

8 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah, that's what I meant by

9 the to paths, from you know as you are certifying two,

10 have you checked the path. You're going to do this

11 path or you're going to do, you know.

12 MR. EISNER: I hear the argument that we

13 don't want to waste the money on a complex piece of

14 equipment when it's first tested. I'm having trouble

15 understanding why the manufacturer, in the materials it

16 would normally submit to DOE before any testing is

17 done, cannot say this is a unique piece of equipment

18 that should not be tested without the manufacturer

19 present.

20 We ask that DOE waive the requirement, to put

21 them on notice that if they don't waive the

22 requirement, they may be wasting their money. But if
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1 they want to, they will have to pay for a retest if you

2 ask for it. What's wrong with your putting them on

3 notice that this would be a waste of money testing

4 without us present?

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's what they want.

6 MS. HOOTMAN: Nothing's wrong with that, but

7 I thought that you were saying you only wanted X amount

8 of those at that level.

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, that's what they want.

10 We are saying we will not do that.

11 MR. EISNER: No, you -- the grant of the

12 waiver is not automatic. The retest is automatic. The

13 grant of a waiver is not automatic. You've presented

14 them with the information. This is unique because it

15 has an economizer which should be detached or should be

16 left in place or whatever. And we request that you

17 discuss with us the -- if you don't understand it, in

18 more detail, so you don't waste your money.

19 They don't grant a waiver, they're paying for

20 the retest. You're giving them an argument. They're

21 looking at it and saying, you know, they're right. I

22 don't know how to test this piece of equipment. I need
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1 to have them present to see how it's going to be done.

2 They make the decision before the test, because you put

3 them on notice that there's a problem, and they grant

4 you a waiver and say you can be present.

5 It's limited only in the sense that they're

6 saying, they're right, we'll be wasting our money here

7 if we don't have them present.

8 MR. BALLO: This is Tim Ballo. If we can

9 just negotiate a flat 10 percent or whatever it is

10 figure, I'd much rather have that than have a waiver

11 process that could take up time and resources from the

12 Department on a case by case kind of thing.

13 MR. RIVEST: This is Mike Rivest. I wanted

14 to throw another idea out there as maybe a -- if it's

15 going to be hard to agree on a percentage, but make the

16 concept of that percentage changing over time as

17 experience builds with how this program is implemented.

18 So I don't know if that can be built into regs, but you

19 know so maybe the percentage is higher in the beginning

20 and then it evolves to a low number.

21 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah, but again, I guess I'm

22 back to the -- I mean, you can't anticipate when
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1 possibly these new technologies or something come out,

2 that I think could warrant the discussions of the

3 waiver or the --

4 MR. RIVEST: Right. Got you. Yeah, but I

5 wasn't implying so -- I wasn't implying that it would

6 go to zero percent, but merely that initially it would

7 have to be a higher percentage to show that you could

8 fall to quote 10 percent or whatever. Because

9 initially --

10 MR. EISNER: Can you raise your voice, Mike,

11 so the court reporter can hear?

12 MR. RIVEST: It was just a concept I'm

13 throwing out there, that it doesn't have to be 10

14 percent at the beginning, 10 percent forever. It can

15 be 20 percent going to 7. I mean, it's the idea that

16 we gain experience, the test procedures get written

17 more tightly, instructions get conveyed better.

18 We get better communicating how to select

19 units. If we're not -- if we have to disconnect the

20 economizer maybe we should just not order that

21 economizer, right.

22 MS. HOOTMAN: Right.
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1 MR. EISNER: Jeff?

2 MR. KLEISS: Just to be engaged in this a

3 little bit more, what -- can you give me an example of

4 a unit that would not require startup by a factory

5 trained technician that is not a variable refrigerant

6 flow system, that would still be a problem?

7 MS. HOOTMAN: I do not require factory

8 installed setup on any of my equipment. It's an issue

9 with my customers. I'm not forcing them to use the

10 factory. They want to be independent contractors. They

11 want to install it.

12 MR. KLEISS: And these are not variable

13 refrigerant flows --

14 MS. HOOTMAN: That's correct.

15 MR. KLEISS: Okay. Thank you.

16 MR. EISNER: Other comments, thoughts, as

17 Ashley's typing away? Everybody see the language she's

18 adding on the 10 percent?

19 MR. SACHS: The issue with the 10 percent, of

20 a manufacturer's product line is one that Geoff Halley

21 has brought to us in a manufacturer who only does one22 offs, who only does things that require factory
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1 startup. Engineering products is like buying a bridge

2 and I'm worried about anastomosing paths. I'm also

3 worrying about flat rules that will not work for some

4 product types. This is why I suggested capacity

5 criterion --

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: And I think we get that;

7 right? I mean, if a unit can't be tested at a third

8 party lab, which are pretty much all the products

9 Jeff's talking about, by default it's on the

10 manufacturer's site, they're going to be there.

11 If anything, safety-wise requires, you know,

12 that's going to require a factory trained installer. I

13 mean you get to the same -- you get all the way to

14 manufacturer involvement for those two avenues.

15 MR. SACHS: Okay. So is everybody in the

16 room comfortable with -- that's covered.

17 MR. WHITNELL: Can you move that up higher on

18 the screen so we can --

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: What? This part?

20 MR. WHITNELL: Yeah.

21 MR. DOPPEL: Also, could you change the font

22 size so -- these old eyes in the back --
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1 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: You need to sit

2 closer, Paul.

3 MR. DOPPEL: It wouldn't make any difference.

4 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Put Paul in the front

5 row.

6 MR. EISNER: Let the old guys sit up front

7 from now on.

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't know what I did

9 there.

10 MR. EISNER: Can you read it now?

11 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Better.

12 MS. HOOTMAN: Ten percent of models in the --

13 what we're we calling these things?

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: I just said in models, and

15 then I have that footnote throughout this whole thing

16 that once we decide how we're certifying that we deal

17 with that, reconcile the limits.

18 MS. MEYERS: So is that 10 percent -- that's

19 what I'm saying. Ten percent of the models in that

20 product class? What were these things called again

21 that you --

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Substantiation and no, this
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1 would be everything.

2 MS. BARHYDT: So if you have a trillion

3 possible SKUs, your 10 percent is calculated off that?

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: We haven't gotten there yet;

5 right?

6 MS. BARHYDT: That's the basic model

7 discussion --

8 MS. HOOTMAN: But that's hard to agree to

9 something when we haven't gotten there, and that was my

10 point last time.

11 MR. RIVEST: It's just 10 percent of the

12 models tested, no 10 percent --

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: They have to do it before --

14 MR. RIVEST: When they certify.

15 MR. BAUMAN: This is Jeff Bauman from

16 National. I'm with Harvey on this. I mean, I'm not --

17 I don't think we would ever pick that second option

18 because I'm comfortable with the things we have, but I

19 would think for some manufacturers that would be 100

20 percent, that you can only do 10 percent and some

21 manufacturers one percent or zero percent would be

22 fine.
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1 I'm surprised -- I mean, I'm -- maybe I

2 shouldn't throw it out there because -- but, it seems

3 like a -- it's safe to -- you know for somebody who

4 builds you know like a lot of your equipment, Jill, or

5 whatever, that you might need a lot more than I would

6 think 10 percent.

7 I mean, if you guys are okay with that,

8 you've got -- you know, I guess I don't really have a

9 dog in this fight, but I'm surprised we're not hearing

10 more than that.

11 MS. HOOTMAN: This is Jill from Trane. And

12 Jeff, I mean I think that I have a hard time agreeing

13 to this when I don't know what a definition of models

14 and certified mean. It's a different definition for

15 me. We've already gotten on the basic model or

16 whatever; we haven't discussed that yet. So that's a

17 different definition in my mind than possibly the

18 Department's. So hard to say yes to that, because I

19 can't envision what that 10 percent is; 10 percent of

20 10, or 10 percent of millions.

21 MS. MEYERS: And is that in a calendar year?

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: At any time.
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1 MS. MEYERS: So would this stifle --

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: No.

3 MS. MEYERS: -- innovation? I mean maybe I'm

4 not going to roll out this brand new technology because

5 it's pretty complicated and it's you know --

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: And here you would have one

7 that you had claimed was innovative technology from

8 three years ago that you could switch over. So this is

9 your discretion. Or you just take the auto retest,

10 because that allows you to be onsite anyway, before an

11 invalid rating has occurred.

12 MR. EISNER: We still have the right to

13 disagree on the definition of model. We realize the

14 votes could be different at that time, but --

15 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah, that's --

16 MR. EISNER: So you don't agree to the 10

17 percent here, you can say you don't agree to the model

18 definition.

19 MS. HOOTMAN: And that's where we got the

20 last time, Neil, is I was like, okay, until I

21 understand that, I can't really say yes or no to this.

22 MR. AMRANE: And maybe one option should be
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1 that we agree to the language, but then revisit the 10

2 percent when we have a definition of what the model is.

3 MR. EISNER: Part of what I understand is

4 going on is DOE needs to proceed on this rulemaking.

5 They want to get this to the full committee. Let the

6 full committee decide whether to make a recommendation

7 to the Secretary. We go with this, which would include

8 the 10 percent. If we hold off agreement on this, we

9 hold off on their being able to work on the rule.

10 That's my understanding.

11 MS. HOOTMAN: So therefore, I would have to

12 vote negative on this, so that I have the right to be

13 able to come back and change that.

14 MR. WHITWELL: I think the next thing -- it's

15 intended to be discussed during the next 10 days.

16 MR. EISNER: Well, wait a second. I think --

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: But I will say there's one

18 caveat there. The argument for discussing basic model

19 can't be, I don't have a valid way to come up with a

20 rating, because that's what this is.

21 So we can't have a circular argument here.

22 We're giving you -- the reason for doing AEDMs first
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1 was to say, okay, I have two pathways to come up with a

2 reading. I have a valid AEDM, or I have it tested.

3 And what this is doing is closing the door on that

4 process. But then you can discuss, okay, how many

5 ratings do I have?

6 So if we table the vote on 10 percent, the

7 assumption would be going into the basic model

8 discussion, or basic model group discussion, or product

9 family discussion or whatever it ends up being, would

10 be that I have a valid way to rate, period.

11 Because otherwise, you get into a circular

12 loop, and we can't say we can't vote on nothing,

13 because we will not ever make progress.

14 MS. MEYERS: Well, what will DOE's rules be

15 for selecting models that it wants to test?

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, I don't quite

17 understand your question, other than DOE may select any

18 model distributed in commerce and verify the equipment

19 performance at any time.

20 MS. MEYERS: Well, does that give DOE the

21 right to say for 2014, the only models I'm going to

22 select are Rheem units so that -- I mean, I just think
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1 we need some rules on that because it seems --

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, the statutory

3 language allows me to pull a unit at any time. So by

4 default --

5 MS. MEYERS: Well, so that 10 percent would

6 then mean, you know.

7 MR. RIVEST: It's on the agenda.

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, verification -- a

9 formalized verification program is on the agenda. It

10 was going to be for tomorrow, if we get there. What a

11 DOE verification program is and what -- how it could

12 with potential industry program and what -- you know,

13 it questions percentage of maximum models, targeting,

14 those types of issues.

15 But I think that those are -- I mean yes, we

16 can pull a unit at any time if we have a reason to.

17 Have we ever only tested a single manufacturer of a

18 given product type? No. We're not completely

19 unreasonable here, regardless of what you may think.

20 MR. EISNER: Can we have agreement on that?

21 That's what I meant. And I'm not -- we still have

22 other issues on scope to discuss before we can go on to
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1 the things like grouping.

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: So do we -- I guess my

3 question is do we agree with the contents of everything

4 except for the 10 percent number? Are we happy with

5 the two options or would we rather there only be the

6 other option? Do we need to vote on those two points?

7 MR. STEPHENS: Phil Stephens, HTP. I like

8 the way the conversation was heading originally where

9 we were narrowing down the options about if it's in the

10 largest percent -- whatever percentage of the capacity

11 of the basic model group or product family; if it's the

12 highest efficiency in the industry within a percentage;

13 if it's innovative and if the -- if no product in the

14 basic model group has been audited previously, then we

15 pursue these options.

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: My point of view there is I

17 could never define those four things in a consensus

18 manner for every single product category in this room.

19 MR. STEPHENS: Do they have to be the same

20 for every product category?

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: No. They wouldn't have to be

22 the same but --
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1 MR. STEPHENS: So we really have --

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: You have to agree that it

3 should be correct for each category.

4 MR. STEPHENS: So we're almost hearing the

5 need for some simultaneous conversations --

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: We could do that.

7 MS. HARHYDT: Wouldn't that fluctuate over

8 time though? I mean, I -- do you really want to tie

9 the regulatory scheme to this is innovative technology

10 today?

11 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. It

12 would just tie it to innovative at the time that you

13 did the audit.

14 MS. BARHYDT: Right, but defining innovative.

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: But we have to define that.

16 How would you define that? Top 10 percent of

17 efficiency range, and that's it?

18 MR. STEPHENS: There are a lot of different

19 definitions --

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean you just have to draw

21 a line; a line that gets the same regs over time.

22 Because as you can see, our regs, to change them takes
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1 some time. Just saying. We wouldn't leave it as

2 innovative technology. Someone please -- I mean unless

3 you say the Department can define innovative technology

4 as it may well. And I'm pretty sure that's not going

5 to be a consensus.

6 MR. STEPHEN: (Inaudible) would have a great

7 definition of innovation, but just to throw something

8 out, I actually took the opportunity while I got to

9 type away, components, assemblies, control structures,

10 hardware, software, or technology new to the industry

11 market or market segment as identified by patents,

12 literature review or industry expertise.

13 All right? That's a lot of words, but --

14 MR. SACHS: You're hired.

15 MR. STEPHENS: -- it's a complicated --

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, I just don't want to

17 get into fighting over the determination; right? I

18 mean, what we're trying to do is come up with a

19 process, so a) you guys have the same expectations of

20 what's going to happen as we do. And the process is

21 well-defined existing, you know -- and at the end of

22 the day, it's we have a valid test or not and this is
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1 the outcome.

2 So I'm open to other ideas, if they could be

3 discrete characteristics.

4 MR. BAUMAN: Could you scroll so we can see

5 that 10 percent language again?

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Maybe. Hang with me. I

7 don't know if I have the language exactly right, but

8 that's more or less, I think the ...

9 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers. I want to

10 bring up what I mentioned before. What we had come

11 close to agreeing to last time, but didn't quite lock

12 down in some people's mind, was an automatic, a very

13 simple for DOE and simple for manufacturers, DOE does

14 what they want, whatever they need to do on the first

15 test, but that test doesn't count until we

16 manufacturers are given the automatic opportunity for a

17 witnessed test.

18 Everything I've heard up to this point has

19 talked about cost to DOE. Yes, there's some

20 manufacturing cost to coming in behind that and

21 cleaning up whatever mess might have been made by the

22 test laboratory's installation of that test product,
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1 but even that is DOE's cost to bear, because they have

2 agreed in this proposal to do a second test if there

3 was a failure on the first test.

4 And they believe that to be a very small

5 number, 5 percent, 10 percent, maybe even less. So if

6 it's just a cost issue that we're trying to address

7 with this 10 percent and modern technology and that

8 sort of thing, why don't we give that to DOE? I had

9 made a suggestion earlier that if we want to provide

10 DOE with input, but not a requirement, to say you may

11 want to rethink testing this on your own, DOE, on this

12 model, when it's one that they're having to ask us to

13 build.

14 DOE says, I need one of these models from

15 you, schedule, give me a price, however that process

16 works. And we say hmm, on that model we recommend that

17 you allow us to be there for the first test. And if

18 we're there for the first test, I would agree with

19 that's your only test.

20 But voluntary based on input we would provide

21 to DOE as opposed to a mandate and a reg. And then

22 we're done and we can move on, unless there's something
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1 other than cost to DOE. I mean yes, we're taxpayers

2 and we don't want wasted money, but they don't want

3 wasted money.

4 So they'll see the error in their way

5 quickly, and more of our suggestions to have us there

6 the first time. Hey, that's just one test and they've

7 already warned us this might be something we'll mess

8 up; maybe we take advantage of it. So they would be

9 looking out for the cost.

10 I think DOE would be happy with input, as

11 long as it didn't change what you had to do, and

12 they're going to be looking out for cost. We'll be

13 recommending when they be cautious about that. Trying

14 to put in the 10 percent is either going to get into

15 problems with how models are defined, the groups are

16 defined.

17 If we start putting in technology, how is

18 that defined? Beyond what you were talking about,

19 Phil, those are the items, but then within that item,

20 what's new? How do you say that's really new stuff?

21 And maybe someone talked about if the requirements

22 change where you're looking at the minimum rate,
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1 nothing may be new in terms of hardware, but it's a new

2 factor that's being looked at.

3 All that goes away if we go with what we had

4 tentatively agreed to last time, with perhaps something

5 in the reg saying that we have the right when it's,

6 when -- if it's a model that they have to ask the

7 manufacturer for, that we have the right to suggest to

8 them that they should take us there for the first test.

9 And if they do, if they accept our

10 recommendation, that's the only shot we get is that

11 first test.

12 MR. AMRANE: Karim Amrane, AHRI. But Frank,

13 assuming the DOE even let you know when DOE will do

14 this assessment test, which is not necessarily the

15 case, right?

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't know. I don't think

17 he is assuming that one way or the other. If it's

18 built to order, we're going to have to because by

19 default we have to get the unit from him.

20 MR. AMRANE: Just to order, but there's

21 product (inaudible).

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Otherwise, no, we don't
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1 necessarily have to let you know. But still, what he's

2 saying is instead of going through the pathway of

3 defining all these things, which may be very, in some

4 cases, hard to define, you still get your rights for

5 retest.

6 So at the end of the day -- and I'm putting

7 words in your mouth, so please correct me if I'm wrong,

8 but leave it to DOE to spend their money effectively,

9 because if we don't, the reality is, we won't have it.

10 MR. AMRANE: Maybe another option could be at

11 DOE's discretion to decide whether the first test

12 should be witnessed by both --

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, that's what he's

14 saying.

15 MR. AMRANE: Yeah.

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: We're than happy as -- I mean

17 I can add as part of the cert requirements up here that

18 you may provide information to DOE about models you

19 feel -- and manufacturers should be onsite. But it's

20 not a 100 percent requirement that DOE use that option.

21 And maybe that can inform our decision about what

22 models we test, or our decision about whether we decide
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1 to engage you upfront, or whatever it is. But it would

2 be ultimately at our discretion, at our requirement.

3 MR. EISNER: Any comments? Jeff has got a

4 comment. Others think about whether you want to talk

5 about this issue or --

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: More information is better

7 for us.

8 MR. EISNER: I think we have to start

9 narrowing the options down and focus our discussion.

10 Jeff, you had a comment?

11 MR. BAUMAN: Yeah, I think as Ashley was just

12 saying, as I'm rereading the any additional information

13 is the regarding test. I mean, I could include any

14 additional information or recommendations to help

15 facilitate the test to be provided by manufacturers,

16 would again cover, in my eyes, you know if we want to

17 put -- you know, to provide them with that additional

18 information or say we think if you go to test this, so

19 you won't have to retest it and potentially waste your

20 money, we have -- there's a facility to be able to do

21 that, a way to be able to do that.

22 MR. EISNER: Other thoughts, especially on
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1 this last suggestion about amending the paragraph about

2 the information provided by the manufacturer? All

3 right. I see two clear options. One is the language

4 that was circulated this weekend that we had talked

5 about two weeks ago.

6 Second is this paragraph with the 10 percent

7 in it. Can you bring that back up?

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, sorry.

9 MR. EISNER: And there's this language here

10 for -- a manufacturer must select a pathway down to

11 here, which I think is new. So why don't we start off

12 by saying whether anybody objects to adding this

13 language? We can still consider other languages, the

14 stuff that's just been talked about, but let's talk

15 about this right now. Does anybody object to this, to

16 a decision of the group, that this language should be

17 added to the language that was circulated this weekend?

18 MR. WHITWELL: Sorry, question.

19 Clarification. Bob Whitwell from Carrier. So if the

20 manufacturer selects this first option, on the other 90

21 percent of the models, do they still have the second

22 test option? Okay.
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1 MR. EISNER: And again, we can come back to

2 this, but I'd like to focus on which -- we've got a

3 second alternative which is instead of this, put in

4 language about information the manufacturer can submit

5 about what should be done with testing.

6 So I'm not saying we can't go back and forth.

7 I want to see if we have support for this. Do we have

8 more -- do we have objections to this? Anybody object

9 to it? Raise your hand --

10 MS. BARHYDT: Neil, I think we're going to

11 have to wait a couple minutes, because the two people

12 who were most concerned stepped out of the room.

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: And this is the language with

14 the 10 percent cut.

15 MR. EISNER: Yeah. We understand this 10

16 percent; at least I understand that the sense is that

17 if we do agree to add this, the 10 percent is subject

18 to definition of the group that it's going to affect.

19 And that discussion, we hope to have before these two20 day meetings, this two-day set of meetings ends.

21 So there's an understanding, and we can put a

22 footnote in it that's important to people, that 10
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1 percent of models -- depends a little bit on how we're

2 going to define the groups. Right?

3 MR. HURST: Just a point of clarification.

4 John Hurst from Lennox. It says, initial tests.

5 Shouldn't that be singular, instead of plural? Initial

6 test would be used to make a definitive determination

7 regarding the --

8 MR. EISNER: Talking about right here?

9 MR. HURST: Yes.

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah.

11 MR. HURST: Just to make sure everybody's

12 clear.

13 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers with PVI. I

14 want to make sure of something because I thought I

15 heard two different answers. Previously, I thought the

16 answer to, if you elect to take the 10 percent of

17 models path, then all models that the manufacturer

18 produces, you would give up the right to automatic

19 retest.

20 But then the question that was just asked, it

21 seemed to go the other way. That you would only be

22 giving your right on just those 10 percent. That's a
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1 big difference. I'd like some better clarity on that.

2 MS. BARHYDT: Ashley says she has resources.

3 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: She's making more all

4 the time.

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: My newborn will be onsite

6 with you for testing.

7 MR. BAUMAN: This is Jeff from National. I

8 just want to say as I'm rereading this, and again I'm

9 you know, I don't see having a dog in this race because

10 it's not a (inaudible) -- it's going to be -- it may be

11 challenging to manufacturers too, because you have to

12 declare this when you certify your models.

13 As you go through your models, you have to

14 figure out, hey, am I at that 10 percent? I'm going to

15 have to go back and recertify it because I said, okay,

16 this is the 10 percent. I don't want that one; I want

17 this one.

18 So it's going to somewhat put a burden on

19 manufacturers as far as certifying as opposed to Frank

20 said earlier, some of the ways that this can be done

21 without trying to add this additional wording. I mean

22 I don't know that I'd object to this, but I don't see a
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1 reason to have this paragraph in there, but that's just

2 me.

3 MR. EISNER: Again, any other comments on

4 this? Do we have any objections -- first, let me ask if

5 anybody wants to abstain on this vote? All right. I

6 see no hands raised to --

7 MR. MYERS: I'm going to abstain, because I

8 just can't support --

9 MS. HOOTMAN: Your little footnote it's not

10 in there, but your little footnote that once we

11 understand what models or --

12 MR. EISNER: Yeah, I said -- maybe you were

13 out of the room. I said we can add a footnote, if you

14 want, or we can just assume that everybody understands

15 this is subject to further discussion.

16 MR. SACHS: Why don't we just put the word

17 models in quotes and I think that'll serve to symbolize

18 the footnote.

19 MR. EISNER: Okay, that'll be fine.

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: The footnote's like 10 times

21 throughout the document.

22 MR. EISNER: Again, anybody want to register
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1 an abstention? You don't have to. Okay. The names of

2 the people abstaining? And again, I don't think we

3 necessarily have to use names in reports, just so

4 there's no confusion, the report to the full committee

5 can say we had two abstentions.

6 All right. Are there any objections to

7 adding this language to the existing language that

8 Ashley circulated this weekend? Okay, if there are no

9 objections, we have an agreement, we have consensus to

10 add this language. Does anybody think we ought to add

11 other language to the paragraph about the information

12 that the industry provides, in addition to this?

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's one or the other.

14 MS. MEYERS: And what was your question

15 again?

16 MR. EISNER: There's been some discussion

17 about adding language to the paragraph above this, I

18 think, the bullet above this.

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: So the other option on the

20 table is that you provide the Department with

21 information as part of your certification report, the

22 request that any model be witness tested upon first
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1 testing. Any model, 10 percent, 20 percent, 30

2 percent, will ultimately, it would be left to the

3 Department to use its discretion.

4 MR. RIVEST: That's over and above this,

5 right?

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's separate from this.

7 MR. EISNER: This can be --

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: We do one or the other. The

9 Department would not do both.

10 MR. BAUMAN: This is Jeff from National. Why

11 wouldn't you be willing to do both? Because in this

12 case, it would just be -- we would request but you

13 cannot pay attention to any of them. Are you

14 negotiating with me, Ashley?

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: I hope so.

16 MR. BAUMAN: I mean, I would think it would

17 be your discretion, but it doesn't obligate you to do

18 anything, that we can provide recommendations. If you

19 want to ignore it, then you just ignore it. It's not

20 asking you to do anything. It's just giving a set --

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's setting up an

22 expectation.
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1 MR. RIVEST: So you could give your

2 requirements and your recommendations or just your

3 recommendations?

4 MR. BAUMAN: I'd say, what I've heard is

5 there's recommendations, and there's recommendations

6 and requirements. There's requirements for safety or

7 things like that, that this is how the unit has to be

8 tested, right? Because of cost concerns, whatever, you

9 might have recommendations that are --

10 MR. RIVEST: I'm sorry, I was using the word

11 requirement as in we -- the manufacturer requires that

12 10 percent, these 10 percent, be witness tested

13 immediately.

14 MR. BAUMAN: Right.

15 MR. RIVEST: And we recommend that these

16 additional products be witness tested, but that would

17 be up to DOE to decide if --

18 MR. BAUMAN: Yeah. And I think I'm -- Jeff

19 from National again. I think I'm doing the same, sort

20 of saying the same thing. I'm just saying that

21 everything outside that 10 percent, basically 100

22 percent, you can recommend to DOE that you do that,
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1 whether that's --

2 MR. RIVEST: That wouldn't be very helpful

3 though, 100 percent.

4 MR. BAUMAN: Well, but you -- we could, I

5 mean not that -- but for some people's products, what

6 I'm hearing might be 100 percent that they would

7 recommend. Doesn't mean you're going to do 100 percent,

8 or it doesn't mean you're going to do any percent in

9 that case.

10 But I think the concerns that are being

11 discussed are financial and you know, to make the test

12 smoother the first time or whatever, we can make a

13 recommendation that, you know, you recommend somebody

14 from the factory be there, in order to get the test set

15 up right, for reasons -- you know, whatever reasons.

16 And you can decide to either look at those

17 and consider them and change your decision or you can

18 choose to ignore them. That's not -- to me, the 10

19 percent becomes the -- required that you're saying yes,

20 we will let you say this 10 percent is going to be --

21 have somebody there. This other is just at DOE's

22 discretion.
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1 MR. WHITWELL: Bob Whitwell from Carrier.

2 Just -- maybe I can help with the difference between

3 what's here and what's further in the language. The

4 test procedure requires that the product be set to run

5 at a certain static pressure, for example.

6 And when these are applied in the field, the

7 installer sets the fan speed, for example, or changes

8 pulleys or whatever, depending on how the fan is

9 driven, to meet the requirements for his building,

10 which is completely different than what it would be if

11 you were testing for the test procedure.

12 So an example here might be instructions to

13 the test laboratory on how to set the product, so it

14 can be run according to the test procedure. It might

15 not require the manufacturer to be there, but you might

16 want to provide some instruction to help the test

17 manufacturer -- or the test laboratory to be able to

18 setup the equipment to run for the test procedure.

19 MR. BAUMAN: And really maybe the

20 recommendation, the part that's a recommendation is

21 just recommending you have the option of recommending

22 somebody from the factory be there. You know the rest
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1 is really instructions on how to do the test right.

2 You have the ability to recommend a witness test

3 doesn't mean you -- and with some reasoning behind

4 that, other than just saying we want everything to be

5 and that you can consider that --

6 MR. RIVEST: That would be very helpful in

7 the notes.

8 MR. EISNER: I thought the language already

9 included the requirement that you submit information

10 that was necessary for the testing facility to run it

11 correctly. The second part was if you think that you

12 need to be present, make your argument here and give a

13 recommendation.

14 MR. BAUMAN: Is that in the wording already?

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: No, I don't think it is.

16 MR. BAUMAN: Okay. I'm sorry. That's what -

17 - yeah, that's what I was --

18 MR. EISNER: This was already there, the

19 question's whether to add something saying you can make

20 a recommendation and explain why the manufacturer needs

21 to be there for the test. Any discussion on that?

22 This would be in addition to the language we just
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1 added.

2 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers of PVI. I

3 think that the clause that you just added, Ashley, I

4 think may be in the wrong spot. This is the clause

5 saying if the lab needs more information. At least

6 what I was getting at is that when we find out that a

7 model is going to be used, that we would be able to

8 make these recommendations.

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: So you would do it at the

10 outset?

11 MR. MYERS: Right. Not just if the lab

12 needed more information.

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: You would do it as part of

14 the certification testing?

15 MR. MYERS: Right.

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Which is what this paragraph

17 addresses, right?

18 MS. BARHYDT: This information would be

19 provided during -- this paragraph addresses information

20 to be provided during the certification process.

21 MS. DANE: This is Mary from Traulsen.

22 Doesn't that converge to kind of keep track of the
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1 information we give you and things like that, too?

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: This is in our database. I

3 don't -- okay. If you guys want to go through -- you

4 are allowed to do it.

5 MS. DANE: And this doesn't in any way make

6 us waive our rights to secondary, automatic test, if we

7 choose to send extra information at the time of

8 certification?

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: No.

10 MS. DANE: Okay.

11 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. Does

12 the information --

13 MR. EISNER: Could you raise your voice?

14 MR. STEPHENS: Yes, Phillip Stephens, HTP.

15 Does the information we provide become public at any

16 point?

17 MS. BARHYDT: That will depend. I mean

18 there's another law that applies to what can be

19 withheld. We can discuss whether or not DOE would

20 proactively make that information available to the

21 public, but if it were to be requested, whether or not

22 we have the authority to withhold it is a different
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1 issue that we can't really negotiate.

2 MR. EISNER: Any other discussion on this

3 point? Okay, let's have a vote on whether we should add

4 this language here, the last two sentences. Anybody

5 want to abstain on this vote? And again, it's

6 discretionary, as I read it, on the part of what the

7 manufacturer submits; it's discretionary on what DOE

8 does with it.

9 Basically, it's an opportunity to put them on

10 notice if they need --

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Can we have a five-minute

12 break? Can we have a break?

13 MR. EISNER: Yeah, we can take a five-minute

14 break.

15 (Brief recess.)

16 MR. EISNER: Can everybody take their seat,

17 please? Can everyone return to their seat, please?

18 Any new comments as a result of the break?

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. So I think -- so the

20 Department has a concern with adding the last two

21 sentences. Specifically we're concerned that it's

22 going to provide an unequal playing field. That people
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1 are going -- you're going to have certain manufacturers

2 that are going to list all models that need to be

3 tested, where a manufacturer needs an onsite for

4 testing and using different rationales and applying

5 them differently.

6 We're going to have other manufacturers that

7 may apply it very narrowly, and this isn't a good

8 definitive choice for the Department. So I don't think

9 the Department's in favor at this time of adding either

10 of those sentences.

11 We do think that the manufacturers should

12 provide all information about testing a product, or

13 setup, you know, such -- the information like the

14 statics of setting the pulleys, et cetera, et cetera.

15 That that's very valuable and insightful

16 information. But as far as making a recommendation for

17 onsite testing, that's not something we support at this

18 time.

19 MR. EISNER: Reactions, comments?

20 MS. BARHYDT: And you'd still have the other

21 provision --

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: You would still have your
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1 other provision and you would need to use your 10

2 percent --

3 MS. BARHYDT: For specifying --

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Accordingly.

5 MR. EISNER: Any other comments? Any

6 responses? Reactions? Karim?

7 MR. AMRANE: I think regarding the 10

8 percent, would it be better to table the discussion

9 until we know what the model is, until we define what

10 the model is, and then maybe agree to that -- go back

11 and decide on the 10 percent?

12 MR. EISNER: The 10 percent, I think we had

13 agreed to put it in quotes, to show that it still

14 needed a definition.

15 MR. AMRANE: So we can go back and change

16 that?

17 MR. EISNER: That is my understanding of

18 where we are.

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: I put models in quotes, so

20 yeah.

21 MS. HOOTMAN: This is Jill at Trane. Ashley,

22 on that point that you're taking out of there, I
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1 understand what you're getting at. I think that we

2 still may have, I guess the Department should know,

3 that I think that I see a situation, could be kind of

4 common situation, in the future where we, as

5 manufacturers, will have to file waivers in the DOE

6 test procedure.

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Absolutely. This doesn't

8 preclude that. You should be filing waivers if you

9 don't think the test procedure accurately depicts -- if

10 you think that, you know -- like I said I think on the

11 day one, if there's a test procedure issue and/or

12 testing reveals a test procedure issue, that's

13 something we need to deal with.

14 And I have no doubt that will come up plenty.

15 So this does not preclude you at all. And just to be

16 clear, when I say that -- you know, I use the term, the

17 DOE test procedure or the applicable DOE test

18 procedure, throughout the whole document, just because

19 of my shorthand.

20 But that means -- if we've approved a waiver

21 for you, that is the applicable DOE test procedure.

22 Whatever the applicable DOE test procedure is the one
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1 you use, waiver or otherwise. But you would need to

2 get a waiver approved, before it could be used.

3 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. Before it even go to

4 commerce.

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: In theory.

6 MS. HOOTMAN: Because if what, I guess what

7 I'm envisioning here is some of the things that I was

8 talking about where there's new technologies coming

9 out. Test procedure in AHRI has changed, but statutory

10 -- you have not picked through -- the Department hasn't

11 picked it up yet.

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: You can always request the

13 waiver. Absolutely.

14 MS. HOOTMAN: And so it's in that catch-22

15 that I talk about, so I can envision that there could

16 be quite a few waivers out there --

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah.

18 MS. HOOTMAN: -- based on that fact that it's

19 not caught up. And so am I correct that it would have

20 to be before it's put in commerce?

21 MS. BARHYDT: And when we select units for

22 test that are subject to a test procedure waiver, we
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1 always provide a copy of the waiver to the lab. Make

2 sure the lab is aware of the fact that that model is

3 subject to waiver, and we work with the lab to make

4 sure that they understand that test procedure waiver.

5 We routinely test products that have waivers. And so

6 ...

7 MR. EISNER: Other concerns? Other issues?

8 Okay, let's talk about voting on whether we should add

9 this language. These two sentences that the Department

10 has just said they object to --

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: I took them out, but --

12 MS. BARHYDT: You took them out, because --

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: I did, because the Department

14 objects. You couldn't vote. Sorry. I mean, I just

15 assumed the Department objecting --

16 MR. EISNER: Anybody want to abstain on this

17 vote? Everybody understand what the issue is? Should

18 we add these two sentences to the existing language?

19 Anybody object besides the Department of Energy? Okay.

20 It does not pass. Any concerns? Any discussions?

21 Anything else you want to talk about? Yes.

22 MR. STARR: Louis Starr, NEEA. You know, if
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1 the Department of Energy's not comfortable with it, I

2 don't see that it makes a lot of sense. If they see

3 regulatory problems with it or loopholes, I don't

4 understand -- if the job here is to put a set of rules

5 together to have loopholes, that seems

6 counterproductive.

7 It seems if we can't address Ashley's concern

8 why this shouldn't be a concern, then I don't see why

9 those sentences should be in there. So if people are

10 voting for it, I need to hear why they're voting for

11 it. At least for me.

12 MR. EISNER: It does not go forward, because

13 there are more than two objections.

14 MR. STARR: Right.

15 MR. EISNER: Anybody have any other comments,

16 suggestions, additions they'd like to see? Yes?

17 MR. THARP: Not on this topic. I do have

18 another question on Ashley's notes.

19 MR. EISNER: Okay, I think we have others.

20 It's 12:30, so I'd like to put to a vote whether you

21 guys would like to go to lunch now and start fresh in

22 an hour? Anybody object? Anybody abstain? All right,
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1 see you all back here about 1:30.

2 MR. SACHS: Before you move out, the handout,

3 there's -- gives some thoughts on lunch spots. I'll

4 hang here for a few minutes. My own personal

5 preference is down at the food court are Moe's Burritos

6 and some are southwestern things, and pretty good gyro

7 next to that stand, if you're into lamb.

8 MR. MYERS: And Five Guys hamburgers.

9 MR. SACHS: And Five Guys hamburgers is very

10 popular. Your only problem there is if the --

11 MR. MYERS: Staying awake after eating it.

12 MR. SACHS: It's in this building. Go down

13 to the second floor and start walking that way.

14 MR. MYERS: Towards 13th?

15 MR. SACHS: Towards 13th.

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: So after we get back, we're

17 moving on to what's in the PowerPoint; right?

18 MR. EISNER: Can we have everybody's

19 attention so we agree where we're starting. My

20 understanding is we still have to go through the rest

21 of the scope issues that people raised over the

22 weekend. Then we have to go one scope that remained.
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1 Then we get into --

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, the one scope issue that

3 remained is the beginning of the PowerPoint

4 presentation.

5 MR. EISNER: Yes. So everybody understands

6 that. We'll start with the issues that were raised

7 over the weekend. Then we'll go to the slide show, the

8 last remaining scope issue. And then by tomorrow,

9 we'll have all the stuff finished for the rest of the

10 rules, right? Anybody paying attention?

11 MS. BARHYDT: I don't think so, because there

12 was no reaction.

13 (Whereupon, the meeting was recessed from

14 12:30 p.m. until 1:37 p.m.)

15 MR. EISNER: The first thing we want to

16 discuss the client standards document that reflected a

17 summary of what we agreed to at the last meeting. In

18 addition to the fix we made today, there were some

19 other issues that were raised. I'd like to clarify

20 them before we go on to the last scope issue. You want

21 to tell us what you got?

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, I'm going to ask him,
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1 do you want to raise those two or do you -- are we

2 sufficient in our discussion offline?

3 MR. KLEISS: (Inaudible).

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: What?

5 MR. KLEISS: The (inaudible) on tolerances.

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: So we're good on that; right?

7 MR. KLEISS: We're good on that.

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Do you want to talk about the

9 other one?

10 MR. KLEISS: The footnotes?

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah.

12 MR. KLEISS: Sure. Okay.

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: So Jeff suggested edits to

14 footnotes for this one, and it was this footnote, right

15 Jeff? Off the top of my head?

16 MR. KLEISS: Yes.

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Do you have your changes off

18 the top of your head, or do you want me to find them?

19 MR. KLEISS: Would you please find them?

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, one second. Okay. So

21 originally we had, "If a manufacturer uses different

22 AEDMs corresponding to different validation classes,
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1 the same single unit test of a particular model may be

2 applied to substantiate separate AEDMs across

3 validation classes."

4 And I think the idea here was that basically

5 if you use -- I'm just going to make up something, but

6 -- and this is actually, it applies to this one as well

7 as the water heaters. But basically if you had a unit,

8 that spanned multiple classes, so for example, a unit

9 that fell into both of these classes -- to the extent

10 they're not mutually exclusive, but you used AEDM-A for

11 the first one, and AEDM-B for the second one, that you

12 can use test result from the same unit and apply it to

13 both, without having to have -- that same model --

14 without having to have like an additional model.

15 That was the -- I thought was what you were

16 going for there. So his suggested change was, "A

17 manufacturer may use a single AEDM covering thermal

18 efficiency for both storage, water heaters, and

19 instantaneous." And we can change that, but that

20 doesn't allow you to use test results from a singular

21 model across multiple substantiation classes if you use

22 AEDMs, the multiple AEDMs.
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1 So that doesn't -- I mean, you can by default

2 use -- so the way we have defined an AEDM, it's at the

3 manufacturer's discretion if they want to use a single

4 AEDM to rate different products that use different

5 descriptors, et cetera, et cetera.

6 We haven't isolated that anywhere. So to me,

7 your footnote is redundant by explicitly saying a

8 manufacturer may use a single AEDM covering thermal

9 efficiency for both storage and instantaneous. You can

10 use a single AEDM for all water heaters, period. Or

11 you can use 10, or you can use 2; we do not define a

12 minimum or maximum or -- it's just at the discretion of

13 you, depending on what you're comfortable with.

14 So if you want -- so his proposed changes,

15 "The manufacturer may use a single AEDM covering

16 thermal efficiency for both storage and water heaters."

17 We can make explicit here if the group feels it's

18 necessary. It is allowed by default is the way I read

19 this anyway. You can use across the board, period.

20 But what this takes away, if you replace that

21 second footnote right there, is the ability to use one

22 model that may span two of those classes to
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1 substantiate multiple AEDMs.

2 MR. KLEISS: The point where I was trying to

3 make sure that we were clear on, which is that when you

4 have a family of products and some are classified based

5 on the calculation as instantaneous, and some are

6 classified as storage but they're in the same family or

7 have a very similar efficiency graph, that you could

8 use one storage type and one instantaneous type or

9 whatever and validate that.

10 But what you're saying is that that is

11 already allowable. That one --

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: No.

13 MS. BARHYDT: More than one.

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes and no. The AEDM can

15 estimate the performance of both types. This seems to

16 say that -- what is it --

17 MS. BARHYDT: This is the same single unit

18 test can be used in multiple ones of those, so --

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. If -- but not if he

20 takes that out.

21 MS. BARHYDT: Oh, okay.

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: So if you leave that second
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1 footnote in, you can use the same single unit test to

2 substantiate different AEDMs across classes. That

3 allows you to do what you want with that footnote. If

4 you take it out though, you can't.

5 MR. KLEISS: Okay. I'm not sure what a

6 single --

7 MS. BARHYDT: You have a test of a single

8 unit and you're using those test results to create your

9 models for multiple validation classes. And I don't

10 know how the engineering, if that would work, but ...

11 MR. KLEISS: Okay. And validation means?

12 MS. BARHYDT: It's the gas-fired water

13 heaters and hot water supply boilers less than 10

14 gallons gas- fired. Each one of those is a validation

15 class.

16 MR. KLEISS: See and I'm not needing to cross

17 those classes.

18 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

19 MR. KLEISS: Because I have -- as an example,

20 you have a unit that has a water heater that has more

21 than 10 gallons of storage. However, based on the

22 ratio of the storage to the input, it could be
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1 classified as instantaneous or storage, even though all

2 of them had more than 10 gallons of water.

3 So those are different product classes as

4 defined by DOE. I just wanted to make sure that the

5 AEDM can still cross those product classes.

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. There's no restriction.

7 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah, there's no -- we didn't

8 put any restrictions on the AEDMs. The original

9 proposal did have restrictions, but none of that was

10 adopted in all of our discussions previously.

11 MR. KLEISS: Okay. I just want to make sure

12 that the language that we adopt is clear --

13 MS. BARHYDT: Sufficiently broad.

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's as broad as can be.

15 MR. KLEISS: Okay.

16 MR. EISNER: Would it help if they agreed to

17 put in the preamble the example you gave and say for

18 example it would do that in this case. You could put

19 in parentheses --

20 MR. KLEISS: Well, to provide certainty,

21 yeah, that would be nice.

22 MR. MYERS: Use the phrase instantaneous and
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1 storage which is not in the description.

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, he just wants to make

3 sure you can use one AEDM to estimate, once he has it

4 verified or whatever, that he can then apply it across

5 the board. And the answer is yes, it's at the

6 manufacturer's discretion, how you apply your AEDM to

7 multiple product classes or equipment classes or

8 products or families or types or technologies.

9 MS. MEYERS: So an AEDM can cross different

10 test procedures?

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, we have no -- yeah, we

12 have --

13 MR. KLEISS: In this particular case, though,

14 the test procedure is the same.

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right.

16 MR. KLEISS: If there is an additional test

17 for storage type water heaters that -- well, I'm sorry.

18 In this case it's the same test procedure for the

19 different product classes.

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: There is no restriction on

21 the AEDM. You can one AEDM for every single thing you

22 make if you are confident, as long as you have the
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1 minimum number of distinct models validated for it.

2 MR. STEPHENS: A clarification on this point

3 I've thought of over for the past two weeks, if we have

4 an AEDM, and we have options for our product lines, we

5 have a lot of derivative models; would those derivative

6 models -- would it be sufficient to identify something

7 similar to a (inaudible) as in band curves to come up

8 with individual AEDMs for each one of those categories?

9 MS. BARHYDT: All up to you.

10 MR. STEPHENS: All up to us? Okay.

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: As long you have the minimum

12 number of distinct model tests, that's the only

13 requirement we added in here and that you maintain

14 tolerance.

15 MS. MEYERS: And just one more question to

16 make sure I understand. So the minimum number of --

17 that have to be tested, and that's just to substantiate

18 the AEDM, but not the test procedures that the AEDM may

19 be covering. So if your AEDM covers, let's say four

20 different test procedures, is it still just two models

21 or is it eight models?

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: It depends on the number of
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1 the substantiation classes those four test procedures

2 cover? So for -- I mean, you're obviously going to pick

3 up more than two, because they pick up, you know we

4 have singular test procedures for each of these. So it

5 wouldn't be two, right? But it would be whatever falls

6 into these categories.

7 MS. MEYERS: So -- okay. So it's the number

8 of models per test procedure.

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, they're not all

10 exclusive.

11 MS. MEYERS: Per validation class.

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Per validation class, right.

13 MS. MEYERS: Okay. All right. Got it.

14 Thank you.

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, so the maximum you

16 could have are -- I don't know; add that up, but I

17 think it's like 16 or 18.

18 MS. MEYERS: Okay.

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: Or the minimum number, I'm

20 sorry, if you make proposal. You could always to do

21 more if you wanted to.

22 MR. KLEISS: So can we go back down to that
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1 footnote? So when you say a single unit test, are we

2 saying that for one of those validation classes the

3 minimum number of distinct models to be tested is two

4 models? What then does that footnote saying a single

5 unit test, how does that relate to the two models?

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: So this is to do a single

7 test on each model; right? So that two models

8 represents two distinct tests; one test on each of the

9 units. One unit of each model.

10 MR. KLEISS: Okay.

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right? And so if, for

12 example, you had a gas-fired water heater that was 20

13 gallons that is also an oil-fired water heater that is

14 20 gallons -- I'm just making things up -- but if you

15 had that as a single product and you were to test that

16 one unit, you could use that test result in your two

17 model minimum for gas-fired validation and your two

18 model minimum for your oil-fired. That's what that

19 footnote means, if you have one of those.

20 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, another example would be

21 for a commercial HVAC, we could use the same exact unit

22 for our commercial furnace and for the cooling side;
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1 right? Same exact thing.

2 MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs. We spent a lot of

3 time this morning talking about innovation and as

4 that's rolled around in my brain, I have a naquestion,

5 which is basically using two models assumes that we can

6 do linear interpolation between them. But we haven't

7 constrained this at all, so those two models could be a

8 very similar capacity, for example, with a lot of

9 extrapolation.

10 Or we could have innovative technologies that

11 just hypothetically dual evaporators that feed back

12 into the same (inaudible), with dual modulating

13 compressors. And it's not clear to me that all of these

14 possible configurations will react linearly throughout

15 their operating range. And there seems an implicit --

16 an explicit, no an implicit assumption of linearity in

17 the calibration of these AEDMs.

18 MS. BARHYDT: I don't think it's an

19 assumption that it's linear.

20 MR. SACHS: If it's not linear I need at

21 least three.

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: No.
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1 MS. BARHYDT: What we're saying is that it's

2 up to the manufacturer to determine how much they need

3 to test to model their product line.

4 MR. SACHS: Okay.

5 MS. BARHYDT: So if the manufacturer, in

6 order to have a better model, determines that they need

7 to test 10, then they test 10. We're saying that at an

8 absolute minimum, they have to test two.

9 MR. SACHS: Okay. That's very helpful,

10 Laura, and I apologize for the film before my eyes.

11 MR. EISNER: Okay, any other discussion?

12 Everybody's happy with this particular situation right

13 now, otherwise known as you agree?

14 MR. BAUMAN: We're talking about the number

15 one -- this part strictly?

16 MR. EISNER: The footnote, yeah.

17 MR. BAUMAN: Okay.

18 MR. EISNER: And I want to ask if there are

19 any other issues. Are there other issues on the paper

20 that Ashley circulated?

21 MR. SACHS: Yes, there is.

22 MR. EISNER: Okay.
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1 MR. SACHS: I'm about to get all of Hades

2 opened up to receive me, but an issue that is of at

3 least theoretical concern is that we've inherited a lot

4 of the culture around this product performance from

5 earlier voluntary programs by trade associations, and

6 that includes the concept of the tolerance band.

7 And I've asked Tim, acting as counsel, where

8 in the law it says that I can approve for sale and

9 commerce a 12.35 SEER air conditioner when the law says

10 13. And we went a long way by getting the one-sided

11 confidence bands saying you can exceed performance by

12 as much as you want to.

13 But as I understand this, we are still saying

14 that DOE will approve as compliant, a product that

15 tests out at 95 percent of the legal minimum. And I'm

16 not sure that we all -- and again, we've got 20 years

17 of precedent about this, but I'm not sure that we all

18 ought to be comfortable with this going forward.

19 MR. EISNER: Can you tell me, when you say

20 law, are you talking about statute or regulation?

21 MR. SACHS: Statute.

22 MR. EISNER: The statute does not, you're
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1 saying, provide --

2 MR. SACHS: I'm sorry. The statute -- for

3 some products the statute prescribed minimum

4 performance levels, and they do not prescribe

5 tolerances. We've since then had DOE regulatory cycles

6 that have also set minimum standards higher than those

7 that were in the original law.

8 And again, if I understand correctly, there's

9 no discussion of tolerance bands in the regs. Thou

10 shalt not sell, in commerce in the United States, a

11 central air conditioning system rated at less than SEER

12 13, not

13 12.35.

14 So I think this is a sixth floor issue, or

15 whatever it's called up there, but I just want to go on

16 record that I'm not completely comfortable with the

17 carryover of the tolerance band concept to allow

18 products that do not meet statutory language in

19 commerce.

20 MS. BARHYDT: Harvey, so the -- we've

21 discussed it so far only in the context of the accuracy

22 of the AEDMs, and the first topic for today was sort of
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1 the consequences of ratings being off. So if we can

2 table that and it may come up in the context of

3 discussing the ratings on the AEDMs, but your concern

4 is noted. But I think that the five percent that we've

5 discussed thus far is only within the simulation.

6 MR. SACHS: Point well taken and I wanted to

7 raise this as a general issue and I'll now cower while

8 Karim beats me up.

9 MR. SACHS: I'm used to it. Please Karim.

10 MR. THARP: This is Rusty and this is sort of

11 the opposite of what Harvey was going to say, because

12 the stuff that's come out even in the -- since the last

13 two week meeting, the meeting two weeks ago, I

14 discussed -- commented this to Ashley earlier, we see a

15 larger standard deviation of test results of heat pumps

16 in the heating mode, than we do the cooling mode.

17 So I was going to suggest that we might want

18 to revisit the table on page 6 of the -- I think it was

19 the verification tolerances, where it's basically five

20 percent everywhere, except 10 percent on IER and PAR

21 factor I believe it was.

22 And partially, I think part of that is test
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1 uncertainty, but -- and we see a larger band of

2 standard deviations for heat pumps in the heating mode

3 than the cooling mode, and that was one of the topics

4 of discussion at the recent AHRI meeting.

5 MR. SACHS: I'm certainly sensitive to that,

6 Rusty, and certainly we've heard similar things with

7 respect to the standby losses for storage water

8 heaters, a variety of other questions. And there's no

9 question that the test methods are pretty awkward at

10 times, and it's just a question of where responsibility

11 for product integrity lies.

12 MR. THARP: I guess in response to that, the

13 industry is putting a lot of effort into trying to

14 really, truly understand where that variation comes

15 from and trying to -- the route is for year and a half

16 now, the engineering committee have been meeting on a

17 two-week basis, trying to put together procedures and

18 to help in some of that area that's shared.

19 MR. SACHS: Good and for those who haven't

20 been involved in water heaters, every time I see him

21 Charlie Adams of A.O. Smith reminds me he's not at all

22 sure that 0.9 is any different from 0.93 on electric
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1 water heater testing that has legal ramifications to

2 it. So it's not an easy issue, but I think at some

3 point in our discussions, we'll want to be sensitive to

4 the ramifications.

5 MR. EISNER: Okay. Other comments?

6 MS. HOOTMAN: It's Jill from Trane. Harvey,

7 I mean I understand and I would agree that we don't

8 want to go out and say, broad brush, we condone ratings

9 that are less than the federal minimums. But remember

10 here, we're really talking about one unit that is a

11 verification test and so it's hard to say a suspect

12 population on one in one test knowing what I know about

13 the variation and everything, is really indicative of a

14 whole problem.

15 So I mean, I do think we need to get to that,

16 because I do think that there is shall we say,

17 whatever, a certification, an enforcement, you know,

18 there is a repeat or showing something kind of a way

19 that whatever we get with product family, product

20 model, model discussion, is truly not performing to the

21 federal minimums.

22 MR. SACHS: And Jill, I appreciate that. I
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1 think what I'm hearing is that we need to allow some

2 variance between this nail in the counter which is the

3 test result and the AEDM. But on the other hand, the

4 AEDM's calibration has an enormous amount of leverage

5 downstream. And you're saying, well I think this is

6 compensated for, because any given sample that's pulled

7 that had been validated against the AEDM, if it fails

8 an actual test, you still have trouble.

9 But I'm far, too far away from my meager

10 training in statistics to know whether I should be

11 really uncomfortable with this or if something is

12 chewing at me.

13 MS. BARHYDT: I don't know if we can, from

14 that one test, we can draw a conclusion that there's a

15 -- that there is necessarily a problem with those basic

16 models or the basic model grouping or how that rating -

17 - I think more has to be done.

18 MR. SACHS: I think at that this point we're

19 interested in the question of whether that has

20 implications for quality of the AEDM in testing other

21 samples. I just don't know what the answer is. Okay,

22 I think we've exhausted this one. Laura's told me I
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1 get another bite.

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: You do. That's good.

3 Several, actually.

4 MR. EISNER: Other issues on the scope

5 document? So do we have any objection to the document

6 as written now, the one remaining issue going forward?

7 Everybody's happy with the document except for the last

8 remaining issue on scope?

9 MR AMRANE: I think to respond to Rusty, I

10 mean he was questioning the five percent on the heating

11 side and are you suggesting a different number or are

12 you suggesting --

13 MR. THARP: I think based on what the -- I

14 believe that the standard deviation on heating

15 tolerance, on heating tests is almost twice that of

16 cooling tests.

17 MR. EISNER: Then you are saying we don't --

18 MR. THARP: I would suggest -- my personal

19 suggestion would be, based on our test procedures and

20 methods today, that a 10 percent tolerance on an

21 individual spot check would be more appropriate.

22 MS. MEYERS: For the HSB?
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1 MR. THARP: For COP and HSB, yes, COP, HSB

2 after. Basically, the heating parameters on air

3 source. I don't know about water source product.

4 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers, PVI. Not to

5 speak to that issue, but to your prior question about

6 is there anything else in what we've been seeing on the

7 screen, there are two other areas that I think are

8 worthy of at least bringing to the group's --

9 MR. EISNER: Can I ask that we finish this

10 five percent, ten percent issue first and then go --

11 MR. MYERS: Okay. I'm sorry. I thought you

12 were talking overall.

13 MR. EISNER: No, I thought, I misspoke,

14 because I didn't realize we hadn't yet finished

15 addressing Rusty's issue with the 5 percent, 10

16 percent. So I want to see if we can resolve that.

17 MR. STARR: Louis Starr with NEEA. Kind of

18 my thoughts is AHRI hasn't come out with an official

19 position on that. I don't know if I necessarily want

20 to jump to a given percentage. The other aspect of

21 that is, you know, the air conditioning side, heat pump

22 works on the air conditioning side, too.
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1 So changing the tolerance levels on one, but

2 not the other, those not syncing together could seem

3 like it could have some other impacts in terms of what

4 -- how that might drive the market. And ultimately,

5 you're looking for the efficiency levels of the

6 products. So to me it seems like you want to kind of

7 have those in unison.

8 MR. AMRANE: I guess the question, let's say

9 if we don't really address this issue today, would it

10 be at least acceptable to reconsider those numbers in

11 the future if there is data to support that those

12 tolerances should be increased.

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.

14 MR. AMRANE: Maybe that's the way we should

15 be addressing it, because we've got to read some

16 studies and maybe (inaudible).

17 MS. BARHYDT: I think across the board,

18 whenever any of the test procedure rulemakings are

19 open, that that's something that we would be interested

20 in data and -- I mean, we're always looking to make

21 these better reflect the reality of the testing

22 situation.
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: But the starting point should

2 be with the procedures themselves, not just increasing

3 the tolerance.

4 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah.

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I don't disagree that it -

6 - the tolerance may be necessary and it may need to be

7 changed to be bigger or lower in certain cases. But

8 this starting point, the going in position should be

9 that we need to square away and fix these test

10 procedures, if they're not, you know, up to par.

11 MR. THARP: I'm on board with that.

12 MS. BARHYDT: I agree. We've just got to do

13 it faster.

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: If we could be involved in

15 your process, that would help make it faster.

16 MR. AMRANE: Actually, you're always welcome

17 to be involved in our process.

18 MR. SACHS: Thank you. I'll call you

19 tomorrow.

20 MR. ARMANE: Always, everybody's invited.

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: You guys will schedule a

22 meeting and Harvey and I will be happy to show up.
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1 MR. AMRANE: Absolutely.

2 MR. BAUMAN: Make them two-day meetings.

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: I'm going to be on maternity

4 leave, so you're going to be seeing a lot of me and a

5 baby.

6 MR. EISNER: I'm not sure where we are.

7 We're going to leave in the percentages as they are

8 then?

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: We're good.

10 MR. EISNER: No one objects to leaving the

11 percentages the way they are? Okay, good. You had

12 some other issues?

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: No, that's it.

14 MR. EISNER: No, no.

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: Oh.

16 MR. MYERS: I had two, one up at verification

17 laboratory requirements. Definitionally (sic) this

18 doesn't provide very much information, very large or

19 large commercial, doesn't give a manufacturer a very

20 good idea of what would be tested third party for sure

21 versus what would be tested in their lab.

22 The AHRI program has some numbers in at least
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1 two of those that we could consider putting in, and

2 that's in the large commercial water heater. Those

3 things that have to be tested in a third party lab

4 versus those that can be tested at a manufacturer's

5 facility is anything greater than a 130 gallons, or

6 greater than or equal to 500,000 BTUs.

7 That would give everybody, DOE and the

8 manufacturers, certainty as to what is third party and

9 what would be tested in the manufacturer's facility.

10 MR. EISNER: Thoughts on that? Comments? If

11 we put numbers in for water heaters, do we have to put

12 numbers in for all the bullets?

13 MR. MYERS: And I do have numbers from the

14 program for large commercial package boilers, and

15 that's basically commercial package boilers, anything

16 larger than 300,000 BTUs.

17 MR. STARR: Another thought -- Louis Starr of

18 NEEA. Is it the classes as defined in DOE's like large

19 commercial, it's a certain I think it's at 240,000 BTUs

20 that they're some of those -- I thought that's what

21 that classification was referring to.

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Only for commercial package
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1 air conditioning. So not all of these are defined.

2 MR. MYERS: Oh, okay.

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: But the intent here was that

4 it cannot be tested. Now, that's not to say that DOE

5 still won't use its discretion to test in a

6 manufacturer's facility if we feel that we need to, or

7 for whatever reason. But if it cannot be tested,

8 obviously the only option -- and these were some

9 examples that people gave of things that just could not

10 be tested.

11 I don't know if additional specificity is

12 needed at this point in time. If it can't be tested at

13 a third party facility, you better believe our only

14 option is to test at a manufacturer's site. So if it

15 can't be tested though, I don't know why we need to

16 exclude it.

17 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Meyers at PVI.

18 That really does speak exactly to the issue. One of

19 the reasons that you're not hearing a lot of opposition

20 about third party testing, and we've had a lot of

21 discussions about people being at the site and that

22 sort of thing, is that there's a fair amount of
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1 experience in testing products that are smaller water

2 heaters, smaller boilers.

3 When you get to the products that are greater

4 than 130,000 BTUs, and/or greater than 500,000 BTUs,

5 those are things that don't today go to testing

6 laboratories to be done. They are done in

7 manufacturer's facilities.

8 Could a central test facility come to know

9 how to test those kinds of products? Potentially. But

10 to say I'll write a contract for a particular

11 laboratory to test this larger equipment, they would

12 not come into that with experience. All of those today

13 are tested in manufacturer's facilities.

14 It would seem that that would be appropriate

15 to continue to do that for those pieces of equipment.

16 MR. SACHS: Ashley?

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, I'm listening.

18 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey and I'd like to

19 have a compilation of the reports from the manufacturer

20 groups on what their current practice is and Mike's

21 been very helpful on that for one class. And I'd like

22 the accredited test labs to also tell us what their
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1 capabilities are by class, what their chambers can

2 handle.

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Sure.

4 MR. SACHS: So I think it would be an awfully

5 lot easier -- I grant that the logistics is yet another

6 issue, it's just not how big chamber is. But I think

7 it would nice to have some information to frame the

8 discussion.

9 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers, PVI again.

10 Harvey, that -- at least on water heaters and boilers,

11 I can give you within a very tight margin because I

12 work with all of the laboratories. Most of them are

13 able to test water heaters or boilers in terms of

14 capability up to a million BTUs.

15 It gets problematic for some. You certainly

16 can't do any high altitude testing with that kind of

17 BTU input. That says that UL, unless it's changed

18 within the last couple of years, is basically at a

19 million BTUs. InterTech and CSA are all at a million

20 BTUs for those products.

21 So if you were to ask them, they would say

22 that or some number similar to that.
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1 MR. SACHS: But I don't know what the

2 situation is for other product types like CRE. So

3 that's why I'm asking.

4 MR. MYERS: Sure. And that's why I'm only

5 speaking to those two.

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, I think one of the

7 things I guess I'm also wondering is -- so Energy Star

8 just came out with a commercial water heater specific,

9 and it does require third party or at least some avenue

10 of third party and/or witness testing.

11 So in theory, you know, there are third party

12 labs out there that will be EPA approved and accredited

13 to run a DOE test procedure and these don't have upper

14 limits. I'm not saying there aren't considerations to

15 be given, but once again, if the third party labs have

16 the capability and they are accredited by an

17 accreditation body, are we saying then that they

18 shouldn't be? I mean, I don't know.

19 MR. MYERS: Ashley, this is Frank Myers, PVI

20 again. To your point, Ashley, if I were to request

21 Intertech to conduct my Energy Star listing on a

22 million BTU or a 500,000 or a two million BTU water
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1 heater, I'm a certified, what they call a satellite

2 facility, have the same capability and rating, their

3 people would come down and monitor and supervise. We

4 would simply provide the labor, but it would be done in

5 our facility.

6 MR. EISNER: So how do we want to leave this?

7 We need to gather more data?

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, I mean to the extent

9 either the third party labs and/or the manufacturer's

10 want to provide input as to what these delineations

11 might, should be, I don't think at this point we have

12 enough information to draw a line. We can revisit if

13 additional details of this need to be flushed out.

14 MR. MYERS: Okay.

15 MR. EISNER: I mean, is it something you

16 could raise in a preamble that if people can provide

17 data, you would consider putting in numbers such as --

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Absolutely.

19 MR. EISNER: And then you could provide it

20 during the rulemaking process if you have data on that.

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. It can be provided

22 like at the next meeting.
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1 MR. EISNER: Okay.

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah.

3 MR. MEYERS: And I have one other -- this is

4 Frank Myers again -- one other item that we discussed

5 but did not finalize at the last meeting and that was

6 the invalid rating process.

7 MS. BARHYDT: Right. That's moving on to the

8 next --

9 MR. EISNER: That's the last --

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: But cannot use AEDMs anymore?

11 That one?

12 MR. MYERS: That issue.

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, that's the beginning of

14 the presentation deck for this meeting.

15 MR. MYERS: Okay. All right.

16 MS. BARHYDT: That's not on this stuff is it?

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: At 2:00, we might get to it.

18 MR. EISNER: Any other issues?

19 MR. BAUMAN: Can we get clarification, Table

20 5, Commercial Refrigeration, the second footnote as to

21 interpretation of the DOE or not, the footnote.

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: This one?
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1 MR. BAUMAN: Yeah.

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: So these are -- and maybe

3 there's a better way to say this. This was part of the

4 concerns that there were some product class

5 differentiations features that we weren't adopting as

6 validation classes, but that a unit -- that if you

7 offer a transparent model, or a solid model, or a

8 vertical model, or some -- that you should mix and

9 match for your minimum number of two.

10 So in other words, if you have a transparent

11 vertical, self-contained refrigerator, you would do --

12 that would meet two of those -- do you see what I'm --

13 there's concern --

14 MR. BAUMAN: Yeah. Go ahead.

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: There's this concern that

16 there were some product equipment class distinctions

17 that should be picked up at least in some type of

18 variety, as part of this minimum basic model. Not

19 basic, this minimum model set that you have to test.

20 So you shouldn't test all transparent models if you

21 make transparent and solid models. Or you shouldn't

22 test all vertical models if you make semi-vertical or
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1 horizontal and vertical models. That you should mix a

2 little bit.

3 MR. BAUMAN: Okay, and that's what I'm trying

4 to understand. Like if you --

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: There's no minimum amount of

6 how many or how much or -- just it should be from a

7 cross section.

8 MR. BAUMAN: Okay, so if you have basically

9 manufacture all those models as self-contained

10 refrigerators.

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: You have to pick two and the

12 two have to be different.

13 MR. BAUMAN: Okay. But you don't have to

14 pick one transparent model, one solid model, one

15 vertical model?

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right.

17 MR. BAUMAN: Okay. All right.

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: We did not include them up

19 here as separate like categories.

20 MR. BAUMAN: Okay. Much of the wording I

21 think it might be better --

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: If you can help us, I'm happy
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1 -- but the premise was there. Yeah.

2 MR. BAUMAN: Yeah, I think there might be a

3 better wording. I was confused by it with the wording.

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think we're on the same

5 page with the underlying idea.

6 MR. BAUMAN: Yeah, it should be, yeah.

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: But I welcome word changes --

8 fully expected them.

9 MS. DANE: Along that line, Ashley -- this is

10 Mary from Traulsen -- service over the counter models.

11 Did we have a general definition for what you were

12 including in there?

13 MR. AMRANE: It's been approved by Congress,

14 right?

15 MS. DANE: Yeah.

16 MR. AMRANE: Congress just --

17 MS. DANE: In the energy bill there.

18 MR. AMRANE: Yeah, in December, so it's

19 there.

20 MS. DANE: Thank you.

21 MR. EISNER: All right. Are we done? Have

22 we exhausted all the issues?
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1 MR. SACHS: And the participants.

2 MR. EISNER: Pardon?

3 MR. SACHS: And the participants.

4 MR. EISNER: Yeah, got almost four more hours

5 to go. We'll give you break, though. All right; the

6 next thing is to pull out your slides. And the first

7 one's in them, in the pretty pictures of all the

8 equipment starting the first slide, is the AEDM issue,

9 the last remaining issue there. Do you want to

10 summarize where you think we are on that?

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Sure. So this is where I

12 think we left off was, you know, after we have gone

13 through the processes of determining whether something

14 is valid or invalid, it was a question of, is there

15 ever a situation for which DOE should not allow for the

16 use of an AEDM? So should it be if you have a

17 consistent -- if we test the product and consistently

18 we seem to come out with invalid readings, does that

19 mean fundamentally that your AEDM is invalid?

20 And so that's kind of where we left off at

21 the discussion points. And Frank had circulated some

22 language about the AHRI program, at least to the
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1 Department. And what we've tried to do is put some

2 ideas up there, and obviously I can type as we go, but

3 under whatever circumstances should DOE disallow the

4 use of an -- I think we came to the point where there -

5 - there may be such a point where we shouldn't allow

6 the use of an AEDM anymore. It's just what is that

7 point? And I know -- Frank, if you want to summarize

8 quickly with the AHRI. I'm not sure that this is

9 exactly the AHRI program. This is like our wording of

10 it, but it's just close.

11 MR. EISNER: Let me ask first, does anybody

12 disagree with the concept that there might be a point

13 at which we have to stop allowing use of AEDM? Does

14 anyone want to speak to that?

15 MR. HON: Charlie Hon. I have a question.

16 Is that across the board or is that for an individual

17 company who is abusing it?

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: It would be by a company. It

19 will be per manufacturer, yeah.

20 MR. HON: That's what I want to find out.

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, it would not be all

22 series of manufacturers. I guess we could make it say
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1 that, but that was not my intention.

2 MR. HON: Charlie Hon again. My concern is

3 that there may be a few manufacturers who don't have

4 enough database to really use an AEDM but will do so

5 because of costing reasons. And in our particular one,

6 they're going to be very difficult to develop without a

7 very large database, because there are so many

8 different varieties and so many different sizes and

9 models involved. So I'm just concerned that if we're

10 going to talk punishment, talk punishment to the guilty

11 party.

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, this is on a per

13 manufacturer basis. The slide was meant to represent

14 that.

15 MR. EISNER: Robert?

16 MR. WHITWELL: Yes, Bob Whitwell from

17 Carrier. Certainly I mean this is a serious topic that

18 we need to discuss, although we also have to consider

19 that if a manufacturer's not allowed to use an AEDM

20 it's going to shut down at least a part of their

21 business that relies on the AEDM for rating; right?

22 Because in a lot of cases it's not going to be feasible
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1 to test two samples of every basic model.

2 So one possibility that we could think about

3 is something along the lines of what AHRI has where

4 there's some escalation. So if there is some certain

5 number of failures in a year, something happens. If it

6 happens in the next year, it's something worse happens,

7 and third year something worse, more extreme happens.

8 So that in a first-time violation, hitting

9 certain hurdles, they don't necessarily be denied the

10 use of an AEDM, but if it happens twice or three times,

11 then some things would have to change.

12 And the other thing that was not discussed

13 last time at all is timeframe. So is this in what --

14 if there is a certain amount, certain limit that's

15 reached in one year, or is it five years of what -- you

16 know what is it, right? So I think that's something

17 that we have to talk about.

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: So can I ask you if you have

19 a proposal that I can at least start typing?

20 MR. WHITWELL: Well --

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: For feedback, just to start

22 the discussion?
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1 MR. WHITWELL: I mean, I think maybe we could

2 think about it in terms like AHRI program where, you

3 know, in a year timeframe, if you reach a certain

4 level, then penalties start kicking in.

5 MR. EISNER: So a rolling 12 months?

6 MR. WHITMAN: Well, it's a calendar. We do

7 it on a calendar year within AHRI.

8 MR. AMRANE: What you're saying here is

9 scoring with AHRI, it assumes that DOE would be testing

10 so many of those units.

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, that's why it says if

12 DOE has tested. So it would be DOE tested.

13 MR. AMRANE: DOE has the resources to test as

14 many of those units every year?

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: Perhaps.

16 MR. AMRANE: Perhaps.

17 MR. WHITWELL: And just one more comment

18 while I think I still have the floor. But the second

19 bullet there where DOE is testing 10 of the

20 manufacturer's models and 10 percent or more fail is

21 more restrictive than the first case. So, you know, I

22 know this is just up there as throwing out options but
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1 --

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

3 MR. WHITWELL: So if we are going to do that

4 where if it has a small number of certified basic

5 models, and it's a certain level. If it's a company

6 with more, then the percentage, if you're using a

7 percentage there, it needs to be somewhat equivalent,

8 right, rather than have test 11 and you have one fail

9 and you're out, versus three and you have two fail and

10 you're out.

11 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp. Maybe one of the

12 options we could put in is, in the second case, is the

13 manufacturer's request the DOE pay that manufacturer's

14 expense for additional tests. Because if the

15 manufacturer is confident their AEDM is accurate, and

16 then they could pay for some more testing and get down

17 to less than the 10 percent failure rate.

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I'm going to get rid of

19 this language just so I have room to type some options

20 at least.

21 MR. STANONIK: Can I kind of put some context

22 on this?
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, please.

2 MR. STANONIK: Well, this Frank's been on at

3 AHRI and if you remember at the last meeting, we walked

4 away from that meeting with one or ten percent or

5 something like that, because that was what we thought

6 was what the program was doing and I didn't have my

7 laptop so I didn't know exactly what our program was

8 doing.

9 And so then what I sent Laura and Ashley was

10 in fact, as has been discussed here, our programs

11 actually have two levels. Let's call it a probation

12 mode if there's a certain number of failures, and then

13 a penalty mode if there's more failures. And my email

14 to them was basically, in my view, we're looking -- you

15 know, the idea that we reach a point that we tell the

16 manufacturer your AEDM is no longer usable, that's

17 equivalent to the AHRI penalty mode. That's why, you

18 know, that's the NCAA kiss of death; right?

19 And so I think that it should be, and again,

20 I think Ange (ph) and I weren't -- we wouldn't have

21 time to communicate, but Ange kind of translated that

22 to she had less than 10 miles, it was two, it was over
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1 10, whatever. But I think the point is, and where we've

2 gotten to, is really that's, let's just say the point

3 of discussion.

4 I don't think we had settled on the hard

5 numbers, but I think to keep in mind that we're talking

6 about the most severest of conclusions, which is a

7 manufacturer has developed an AEDM to rate a wide

8 number of models and testing, at some point, has raised

9 suspicion of the AEDM itself. And so now you're

10 talking about the manufacturer losing the ability to

11 use that AEDM, and as somebody mentioned, at least for

12 some temporary period, potentially those models are off

13 the market. And so that's a pretty severe thing and so

14 I think the criteria have to keep that in mind. It

15 can't be very usefully taken, so to say.

16 And one other thing, at least -- I'll just

17 say it in my own case -- last meeting when we were

18 talking about that, I was thinking tests in a given

19 year. But on a practical basis, again, it's hard for

20 me to imagine that the DOE's going to able to -- you

21 know, looking at the range of products we're talking

22 about in the commercial market, and the number of
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1 manufacturers, I'm having a hard time envisioning that

2 the DOE's going to be able to test a whole large amount

3 of models in a given year, so it's also to me an issue.

4 Whether it's X number of failures in a given year or in

5 a rolling three-year period or something, I don't know.

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: What if we do -- phase one

7 isn't the first year, phase two is first and second

8 year? I don't know. They could be (inaudible) at that

9 point. So I mean, Frank, I have our table up; right?

10 So this -- if I just put Frank's table up, for example,

11 this seems to be what the AHRI program is. Granted, we

12 haven't come to what models is, but we'll get there.

13 MR. HALLEY: If there are no changes in a

14 given year, is it necessary to test the following year?

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: No. Well, so for the

16 purposes of --

17 MR. STANONIK: You're not testing every model

18 every year. We're testing, I'm sorry, we're testing a

19 portion of the entire listing every year. So every

20 test, you'll be testing different models.

21 MR. HALLEY: Different models?

22 MR. STANONIK: Oh yeah.
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1 MR. HALLEY: Okay.

2 MS. HOOTMAN: But in a three-year period,

3 even if you've changed no models, you have 100 models -

4 -

5 MR. HALLEY: You've got to test every three

6 years then.

7 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes, once every three years,

8 that model then will come up for certification testing.

9 That's how the AHRI program works right now.

10 So sorry, that was Jill from Trane.

11 MR. BAUMAN: For some programs.

12 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah.

13 MR. BAUMAN: For some programs.

14 MS. HOOTMAN: But that's -- the theory is

15 then it does change, your database changes when you add

16 in new models or et cetera, so your database changes.

17 MR. HALLEY: Sure, yeah.

18 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. I'll

19 go ahead and apologize for this, but I feel compelled

20 to point out that we still haven't defined what a model

21 is.

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct. Right.
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1 MR. SHEBIK: I'm sorry, this is Ron Shebik

2 from Hussman. But Jill, what you're saying, you're

3 talking about certification; right? And we're talking

4 about AEDMs; so they're two different things; right?

5 MS. HOOTMAN: You're right. I was explaining

6 how the AHRI certification program is working, but part

7 of that certification program is to really say, if you

8 are out (inaudible) of your ratings and you have

9 suspect problems, it alerts you to these things that

10 we're trying to say, which is appropriation and penalty

11 modes, escalating enough that if you're showing a

12 continued problem in your ratings, you know, you are

13 essentially having to stand up for those and be

14 penalized for those, one way or the other.

15 And so in a way this is the same kind of

16 thing you want to do for an AEDM. One test shouldn't

17 make you fall out of bed, but three or four suspect

18 tests, or whatever we decide it might be, might start

19 to say do you have an AEDM that's not in line, and what

20 should be the steps then for that.

21 MR. SHEBIK: Okay. But for his question,

22 once you substantiate your AEDM and nothing changes,
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1 you don't need to keep going back and retesting then.

2 Do I understand that correctly?

3 MS. HOOTMAN: Correct.

4 MR. SHEBIK: Okay. Okay, thank you.

5 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. I

6 think it's important to point out that a very, very

7 important specific difference between the AHRI program

8 and the Department of Energy. I believe the program

9 with AHRI goes probation, penalty, and if you mess up,

10 I don't know if you can get kicked out of the program.

11 Right? That doesn't mean you can't sell product in the

12 U.S.; that means you're kicked out of AHRI; right?

13 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Yeah.

14 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Right.

15 MR. STEPHENS: So for that part of the

16 market, right?

17 MS. HOOTMAN: Well, but some of those

18 markets, well you might as well just say you're out of

19 the market.

20 MR. STEPHENS: But --

21 MS. HOOTMAN: In some cases.

22 MR. STEPHENS: If you make product and sell
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1 product, you're still not violating federal law. We're

2 talking federal law here. So I think we need that

3 third phase; right? So it's -- what was it, probation,

4 penalty, AEDM, close the AEDM, whatever, and make sure

5 we have that important distinction because it's --

6 historically, it's been probation.

7 MR. STANONIK: Well, why do you need

8 probation? Why do you need probation?

9 MR. STEPHENS: If you mess up while you're on

10 probation, then --

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, what does that mean? I

12 mean, so I guess what does probation, penalty and out

13 mean? I mean, should it be probation? Meaning, do you

14 have to do double the amount of testing for your

15 substantiation classes? Should it mean that you're

16 just on notice? I mean, should penalty mean you need

17 to do more testing, rather than the minimum amount

18 required? Or, I mean at one point -- what do those mean

19 in DOE terms, because you know -- or should there just

20 be one phase and when you get to that threshold it's

21 okay, you can't use an AEDM anymore for either that

22 substantiation class or all the substantiation classes
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1 for which the AEDM is applied, or period, or -- and

2 those are all ideas for discussion, what does that

3 really mean for us?

4 This is, you know, an example of what AHRI

5 does. In the first column, so the left is what they

6 call basic model groups, whenever we end up with models

7 we can tweak. The next one would be their probationary

8 period, which in DOE's terms, what does that mean?

9 And the last one would be penalty, which in

10 theory I guess would either be a reduced use of an AEDM

11 or no use of an AEDM or something, I don't know. But

12 I'm guessing, I'm asking, what are the thresholds?

13 Are those thresholds reasonable or should

14 there just be one hard cutoff? Or should it be you've

15 been placed on warning first, and that serves as your

16 notice that we're watching you, more or less?

17 MR. KLEISS: This is Jeff Kleiss. Can I ask

18 the question of the DOE, what are the levers that you

19 have to pull? What can you do as far as levying fines

20 and restricting us from doing things, that should be

21 considered as consequences?

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I'll just name a few.
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1 I'll let her deal with the fines. I stay out of that.

2 But coming from, from just my point of view, so it

3 could be more testing. It could be third party testing

4 only. It could be that you need to do -- so those are

5 like, those are ones that come off the top of my head.

6 It could be no simulation use. It could be

7 for a given period of time, you have to show the

8 Department your test data for a certain amount of

9 product. I mean stuff like that kind -- all the stuff

10 with respect to testing, and the variations thereof, we

11 could utilize.

12 MR. THARP: Rusty from Goodman. I'll throw

13 in that one of the things that ought to be considered

14 is, for those that are participants of the VICP (ph),

15 that perhaps the VICP data would be considered in

16 addition to the DOE test data.

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: We'll get there.

18 MR. AMRANE: Yeah, we need to talk about

19 that.

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: But that was -- they do --

21 MR. THARP: That would be a stipulation.

22 MS. HOOTMAN: That was after the basic model.
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1 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, AHRI. Again,

2 I think this is -- you know it's useful certainly to

3 use what we do in our program and the concepts we have

4 here. But it needs to be recognized, we're talking

5 about verification testing that DOE would, I'll say

6 sponsor, okay, you've got to pay for it.

7 And keeping that in mind, a) I don't think

8 that we need a probationary period because on a

9 practical basis, if DOE is doing verification testing,

10 and they find from manufacturer X that they have

11 discovered a misrated model, all right, and just for

12 sake of discussion let's say eight, ten months later

13 they pick up another model from manufacturer X and they

14 find another misrated model; okay?

15 There is no way that DOE's not going to have

16 more scrutiny on that manufacturer, unless they were

17 told not to. I mean that's just to me human nature.

18 And then so in a sense there's a, let's call

19 it a virtual probation because DOE's concern is already

20 raised on that particular manufacturer. I don't think

21 we need to talk about, for DOE's regulations,

22 probationary. What we do need to address is okay, at
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1 what point do misratings or reratings go from simply,

2 okay, there was a problem with model X, to there's a

3 problem -- if the models were rated with an AEDM, at

4 what point do they become a problem and say okay, wait

5 a minute, there's something in the basic AEDM that

6 appears to be faulty?

7 And that's really what we need to answer I

8 think. And so the first point I think is, again, you

9 know we base all our stuff on number of model listed.

10 I think for DOE's purposes it has to be models tested.

11 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. I

12 think there's an important distinction here in that it

13 is entirely possible for manufacturers to go into the

14 probation period from manufacturing defects. It's less

15 likely to go into the penalty mode for a manufacturing

16 defect. It's more something else, documentation error

17 when we did the listing, typos, whatever, that we

18 haven't caught.

19 But it's important to have that distinction

20 because, as the engineering staff, when we get put on

21 that probation mode, and we need something to go back

22 to our senior management and every other group in our
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1 company and tell them, look, we're on probation.

2 We've identified that there was an issue with

3 this component. We need to go visit that supplier,

4 figure out what the devil they have done, why this

5 change happened. We need that time period to go back

6 and do that investigation and to look before we start

7 incurring all these penalties, because as a small

8 business, the penalties are very disruptive and very

9 much a significant impact to our business.

10 MR. EISNER: Again, we've been using this

11 word probation and I understand there is no definition

12 of it. By probation, are you thinking we've made one

13 mistake, if we make two mistakes, or if we have two

14 mistakes, something will start happening to us? It may

15 require additional testing, it may require you stop

16 using your AEDM. So you're simply saying they should

17 be warned so that they can tell their leadership.

18 And when you're saying that, does DOE have to

19 do anything to warn them or should they know, the rule

20 says two and you're out, or two and you've got to do

21 additional testing and we know we just had one; we got

22 notified one test failed? Is that sufficient or are
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1 you saying DOE needs to do something to put them on

2 warning or to put them on a probationary status?

3 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. I

4 suspect because a lot of these programs, we won't even

5 be notified when they're selecting our products, so

6 they'll have to tell us for us to know that there was

7 an issue. We don't necessarily have to be informed when

8 everything passes and it meets the specifications. A

9 lot of these programs, if they don't tell us we won't

10 know.

11 MR. EISNER: But the triggering event is a

12 failure.

13 MR. STEPHENS: Yes.

14 MR. EISNER: So if you get notified of a

15 failure, which I assume you do --

16 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes.

17 MR. EISNER: -- you know you've got a failure

18 and one more or two more or whatever the standard is,

19 you're in trouble.

20 MR. STEPHENS: Well, it could easily be

21 listed out in a form letter that they would send that

22 would identify the steps and everything we're outlining
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1 there.

2 MR. EISNER: People want to talk about a form

3 letter, or some kind of or some kind of notice?

4 MR. STANONIK: I think -- Frank Stanonik,

5 AHRI - - but we've lost sight of something. We just --

6 I think the group agreed this morning that if DOE's had

7 that test run and the test came out suggesting a

8 misrating, that they're going to get together with the

9 manufacturer and talk about the result, review what

10 happened, and unless they were witnessed the first

11 time, give them the option to have automatically a

12 retest. And so there's --

13 MS. HOOTMAN: So it's not considered a

14 failure yet until that retest and that fails.

15 MR. STANONIK: Right, right. So according --

16 if there's lots, there's going to be lots of

17 interaction if you get a suspect test result.

18 MR. EISNER: Right. And there's going to be

19 more reaction if you have a retest and it fails again.

20 MR. STANONIK: Absolutely.

21 MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel, Mitsubishi. To me

22 there should be a difference between a manufacturer who
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1 has two failures at like a six percent level, where

2 that might suggest that tweaking of the AEDM is

3 necessary. Whereas if you have a manufacturer that has

4 two ratings at 10 percent or greater --

5 MR. EISNER: You're talking tolerances or --

6 MR. DOPPEL: Yeah.

7 MR. EISNER: Okay.

8 MR. DOPPEL: Yeah, tolerances.

9 MR. EISNER: So five percent is the tolerance

10 level and they would say --

11 MR. DOPPEL: Yeah, five percent is the

12 tolerance level --

13 MR. EISNER: And they were at six?

14 MR. DOPPEL: -- and they were at six percent,

15 so that that implies maybe a tweaking is needed. But

16 if someone is at two tests at 10 percent, then that is

17 just a -- you know, it's more of a gross failure.

18 MR. EISNER: You're saying the rules should

19 reflect this as opposed to the manufacturer's rating?

20 MR. DOPPEL: Well I'm throwing it out for

21 consideration that there's -- there should be, to get

22 into this severe mode, it has to show that there's
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1 gross lack of consistency with the program.

2 MR. EISNER: Jill?

3 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah, well, this is Jill

4 Hootman. I would agree with Paul. It's also how many -

5 - if I'm a manufacturer and all I have is 10 of these

6 models, if I fail two of those, that's a bigger, way

7 bigger percentage than if I only fail -- if I fail two,

8 like you're putting up there, if I fail two and I've

9 got millions of these models, has that really told me

10 anything

11 I don't think that's told the Department anything yet,

12 whether an AEDM is in line or not in line.

13 Statistically, two in a million and two in ten are

14 going to mean two different things.

15 MR. KLEISS: Sorry to challenge that though.

16 We're saying that we should be able to substantiate an

17 AEDM with two tests and now we won't allow DOE to

18 challenge it with two tests?

19 MS. HOOTMAN: Two was not on a calendar year

20 necessarily. Or we didn't ever have a time --

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's even less for them.

22 MS. MEYERS: So --
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1 MR. EISNER: Karen?

2 MS. MEYERS: This is Karen with Rheem. So

3 when you say an invalid rating, is that -- are we still

4 on the assessment testing or would this be enforcement?

5 You failed an enforcement --

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: No, just assessment.

7 MS. BARHYDT: No, this is based on a test.

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: So we've gotten through this

9 whole process we worked out where we said we got to

10 here. We've determined that you're outside of

11 tolerance, we have valid tests, and that you have some

12 options. And the question is, at what point, you know

13 if we get to this process a bunch of times, at what

14 point does that mean there needs to be something else?

15 And that's where we are here. I just put

16 these numbers out there. They're not -- you know,

17 they're just meant to, it can be, we can change these.

18 But you know really we're talking about we have come to

19 the determination that a given model has an invalid

20 rating.

21 How many do we need to determine to say okay

22 something's just off? You need to take a step back and
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1 look at this closer. I mean, my sense was that the

2 group, from the other day and today, a) supported

3 something like this, although the details of it are yet

4 to be known. But b) would rather have it clearly

5 defined than leave it to discussions they might have

6 one-on-one with Laura, once they get in that context.

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, I think we need it

8 defined, but you know --

9 MS. BARHYDT: I figured it out. Because I'm

10 not --

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: She's a really nice person,

12 though. Just not in that, maybe not in that context.

13 MS. BARHYDT: I mean, it's so dependent upon

14 how you define your AEDM because if you do an

15 assessment test and I fail and I said okay, we're going

16 to do a retest and I go and witness and I still fail,

17 but my AEDM covers tons of models, I'm still not sure

18 that it means the AEDM is invalid. It could mean you

19 know I've got a defective component in that unit. It

20 could be a typo in the data that we submitted. So

21 that's why, you know, just failing an assessment test

22 on a model, to me is, it would be kind of a weak reason
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1 to invalidate an AEDM.

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, and I don't think, you

3 know, what we've said here is part of the process.

4 We're not invalidating the AEDM if you have a single

5 model, but if we tested 10 in a row of your models,

6 spanning a wide range and all 10 of them come out with

7 invalid readings, there's a bigger --

8 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah.

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: And so we're saying what is

10 the threshold here? I'm just putting numbers up

11 because they're easier to type, but --

12 MR. BAUMAN: I think the first think is get -

13 - I don't think that based on what Karen is saying, I

14 don't think you have a one in that table. It starts at

15 two. You know, we know one bad one, that model's out.

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, absolutely.

17 MR. BAUMAN: And you know you've got to -- I

18 think most manufacturers, the manager is going to go

19 look at the AEDMs, you're going to go look at that

20 AEDM, it gives you an opportunity before it gets -- and

21 whether you have two to three or two to -- you know,

22 starting at two, okay now what are we -- now you got a
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1 problem with your AEDM, or DOE sees there's a problem

2 your AEDM, obviously.

3 MS. HOOTMAN: This is Jill. Would we say

4 that these are in a validation class or across a

5 validation class?

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, I just ...

7 MR. BAUMAN: And does it make a difference

8 whether that model that didn't pass was part of an AEDM

9 or if it was tested -- because you had models that you

10 tested with an AEDM versus models that you did a full

11 testing.

12 MR. STANONIK: It would only be models you

13 tested within the AEDM because we're really looking at

14 the point at which -- at what point do you go from

15 focusing on the model that failed to the -- will the

16 underlying rating system that applies to this range of

17 models.

18 MR. BAUMAN: I'll agree with you because that

19 was kind of my first thoughts about it, but actually if

20 you think about if you have a manufacturer that has,

21 using AEDMs, and he gets -- you guys test their units,

22 DOE tests the units, maybe it didn't have anything to
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1 do with AEDM. That manufacturer's probably got a

2 problem.

3 He's doing some -- you know, that starts to

4 put -- and almost as a punishment on them is okay, if

5 you're using an AEDM we're going to start taking -- you

6 know, you had that ability to do that, now you've lost

7 that, whether that was -- you know necessarily or even

8 part of how you did it, you know again it puts you at a

9 lot more jeopardy of losing more models, losing ratings

10 rather than just those two because if they're not in

11 there you just lose the two and it's -- but the

12 manufacturer, they've tested two, that guy's doing

13 something wrong. I mean, I guess we're going to talk

14 about other parts of that so maybe it doesn't have

15 anything to do with it but that's kind of how I was

16 thinking of it also.

17 MR. MYERS: Frank Myers at PVI Industries. I

18 have put down a list of where you got two, four, five,

19 six, I just said at some level. And the first one that

20 I had, and this may be too weak, but in an effort, as

21 you were saying before, to get something on the screen

22 where we have some context to talk about. I had down
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1 revise the AEDM.

2 If there's an error with the AEDM then you

3 revise the AEDM. And then you revalidate, just like

4 you started, two units for each of the categories

5 covered by the AEDM. You basically go through the

6 revalidation process.

7 MS. BARHYDT: Meaning new tests?

8 MR. MYERS: New tests.

9 MS. BARHYDT: Or using the preexisting test?

10 MR. MYERS: If you -- I didn't specify. If

11 it means new tests, then we could so say. If you could

12 use that as one of the two, then we could so say. I

13 wasn't trying to identify whether you could use that or

14 not.

15 Certainly whatever you revise it to, when you

16 use that AEDM for that model, it can't be higher than,

17 or within five percent of what that number was.

18 The second level that I had, again

19 unspecified level, but the next higher level is to

20 revise the AEDM to correct the problem and reevaluate,

21 doubling the number of validation tests in order to

22 revalidate the new AEDM.
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1 MS. HOOTMAN: And at some point here, these

2 are probably at the cost of the manufacturer versus the

3 cost of DOE?

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: These would all be at your

5 cost, yeah.

6 MR. MYER: These are all at the cost of the

7 manufacturer because these are validating the AEDM.

8 The third one that I had was basically a repeat of the

9 first one except you had to get those double number of

10 units tested by a nationally recognized testing

11 laboratory, third party laboratory in order to

12 reevaluate. That puts some cost penalty into the

13 program beyond having to build new units and do

14 additional testing.

15 And then at some level, again not specifying

16 the level, at some level you have to test all of the

17 basic models covered by the AEDM. Then if you want to

18 use the AEDM again, you have to revise the AEDM, repeat

19 the AEDM validation, and that validation should show no

20 higher, no levels higher than the test conducted on all

21 the basic model groups. That enables you to use an

22 AEDM but it would be incredibly punitive because one
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1 time you're going to have to test every basic model

2 group, or basic model to have what we want to define.

3 MR. RIVEST: I would like to clarify

4 something here. Is it people's understanding that a

5 manufacturer can elect to have six AEDMs substantiation

6 class?

7 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Yes.

8 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Right, correct. Yeah.

9 MS. HOOTMAN: Six or one, their choice. You

10 have weigh these risks.

11 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Because it's never

12 clearly stated anywhere.

13 MR. STEPHENS: Phil Stephens, HTP. I think

14 Paul had an excellent point about it makes a big

15 difference how far we failed. If it's more than 10

16 percent off the mark, it means something totally

17 different than if it's five-and-a-half percent.

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: So we've defined that, right?

19 I mean to us it's an invalid rating once you're outside

20 of tolerance, period. Now, that being said, I assume

21 if you're six percent or you know, 10 percent, I don't

22 know if you want your penalty structure based on six
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1 percent, ten percent, seven percent, eight percent,

2 nine percent. It gets into the fact that we define an

3 invalid rating outside a given tolerance.

4 Whether it's six, whether it's 10, whether

5 it's 20 at that point, you know it's invalid, and it's

6 on you. We can certainly try that, but it's going to

7 get really complicated really quickly.

8 MR. STARR: This is Louis Starr of NEEA. One

9 of the things that was, your kind of your second

10 penalty box there, the five to six, a lot of these

11 AEDMs really, depending on two being the minimum and

12 doubling that, it's really what's appropriate for the

13 equipment that you're trying to model.

14 So I imagine a lot of these people are using

15 a lot more than four to model, or validate their

16 things, and I suspect four probably wouldn't be enough

17 in some cases for a lot of manufacturers really to

18 validate their equipment. So what I potentially see is

19 that you're kind of creating a minimum, bare minimum

20 thing that's really not necessarily sufficient to model

21 the equipment.

22 So I kind of wonder if putting that double,
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1 maybe something might be better, some kind of

2 appropriate amount to validate it.

3 MR. MYERS: I think it's really difficult

4 because we're not, DOE is not verifying, they're

5 validating the methodology. So it's just, when you're

6 done, this is what you do.

7 MR. STARR: But honestly, would you see in

8 some of this, if you had problems with equipment, that

9 would you see you as a manufacturer only doing four

10 tests?

11 MR. MYERS: Probably not, but this is the

12 punitive side of it.

13 MR. STARR: Yeah.

14 MR. MYERS: You having to do this, pay to do

15 that, pay the build ups.

16 MR. STARR: I guess what I'm saying is that

17 chances are, to do a legitimate engineering job, you'd

18 be doing a lot more than four models. So if they're

19 already falling down on the job, just requiring them to

20 do four is kind of like not really getting at the root

21 of the problem.

22 MR. MYERS: No, but it provides a penalty.
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1 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah, I mean, it's how much of

2 this -- are you allowed to use your own testing data to

3 prove this or, you know. Because if we were doing this

4 in-house, it's a little different cost than if I'm

5 going -- if I'm forced to double mine and go to a third

6 party, it's a different cost. I mean, you just doubled

7 it for me or tripled it for me.

8 Versus if I found a problem within myself, I

9 might go within myself and you're essentially looking

10 at kind of funny money in a lot of ways because it's

11 just the cost of the equipment and how you choose to

12 float your overhead for that (inaudible) and everything

13 else.

14 MR. MYERS: So you feel this would be

15 sufficient motivation to encourage you to do the right

16 thing.

17 MS. HOOTMAN: This is real dollars going out

18 the door.

19 MR. FLY: So this is Mark Fly with AAON.

20 What kind of timing are we talking about? I mean, you

21 can't, you know, are you going to allow, once you've

22 been declared -- you've done your two and you've got to
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1 do -- or you've done your four and you've got to do

2 double validation tests and then submit that to the

3 Department.

4 Are you shut down in that product in the

5 market until that gets rectified or how does that all

6 work in timing? I think that's one thing we have to

7 address.

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: We haven't gotten there yet.

9 We're still working on the --

10 MR. FLY: Right.

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: But no, I mean the answer is

12 no, we would come up with something.

13 MR. FLY: Right. There's got to be some time

14 period.

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: Sure.

16 MR. FLY: Because you have to be given the

17 chance to react.

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, absolutely.

19 MR. BAUMAN: And I think along those lines,

20 probably for commercial equipment, it would be more

21 like a two-year for what they're talking. I mean for

22 you guys to test -- I was thinking about that from two
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1 sides. If you get one unit, you know and manufacturers

2 run around trying to find out what the problem was or

3 whatever, by the time you get that, you know that's

4 going to take another couple months and for DOE to

5 going out and right away and find a second unit that

6 you didn't even have time to react.

7 If they've got to do that within a year, a

8 calendar year, that's a pretty -- doesn't give the

9 manufacturer time to react and how does that affect how

10 quick he's going to do the next one?

11 And then if you get to numbers four, six, you

12 know are they going to be able to test four pieces of

13 commercial equipment from the same manufacturer in one

14 year?

15 I mean for them probably two years -- again,

16 if you happen to find a manufacturer and you decide to

17 test them in September or October of the calendar year,

18 you know now you only have to the end of that calendar

19 year to -- you'll never get to that number.

20 MR. HON: Charlie Hon, True Manufacturing. I

21 think that when you're getting into some of these large

22 units, we were talking last meeting 180 days for
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1 another unit to be prepared. Two years is too short.

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay.

3 MR. HON: Because there are so many

4 possibilities. Say that we -- okay, instead of rushing

5 you the unit right away, well it took a little bit

6 longer because a component late, because we knew we

7 would go past the end of the calendar year. So you

8 could easily delay the process and jump into another

9 year and end up with -- you know three is a reasonable

10 number that you're going to catch things. But one and

11 two just, with these long lead times that we look in

12 our industry, potentially it could be problematic.

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: What do we think?

14 MR. WHITWELL: Well, I mean, you just

15 increased the number of years, but you didn't change

16 the numbers.

17 MR. BAUMAN: You need to get a percentage.

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: We were aware of that.

19 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers. Ashley, the

20 last one down there is dramatically different than what

21 I had saw proposed, and that was that the manufacturer

22 would have to test all of their models in that,
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1 whatever was covered by that AEDM. And then having

2 provided that, then they would go back.

3 We could make it third party but I was

4 suggesting this all be done by the manufacturer because

5 just having to test all your basic models is draconian.

6 So that's already a near shutdown for that line type

7 event.

8 MR. WHITWELL: That's shutting down, right

9 there.

10 MS. BARHYDT: As I'm reading this, we're not

11 going to wait until we hit six. After two, you're

12 going to get a notice from the Department.

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: After one you're going to get

14 a notice.

15 MS. BARHYDT: Well, after you're going to --

16 you're going to know from the whole process anyway.

17 But after two, you're going to get an official notice

18 that you need to do new testing. We do two more, and

19 it's let's say the same year, and you have additional

20 validation testing.

21 I mean, our hope is that you will never hit

22 six, you will never hit eight. You will have had ample
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1 opportunity to address the problems, fix the problems,

2 and we won't ever hit having tested that many units

3 that are off.

4 MR. WHITWELL: So, this is Bob Whitwell from

5 Carrier. Is this the first program where DOE is

6 setting up something like this? Do we have other

7 examples to look at as far as what DOE is doing? So

8 you're starting this program with one of the -- with a

9 very difficult, complicated product category?

10 MS. BARHYDT: Well, a lot of products don't

11 allow simulations. So this whole concept of validating

12 the simulation and not requiring testing in the first

13 place, you're in a unique circumstance to begin with.

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. We already enforce

15 ratings and make them rerate some testing, already --

16 MR. WHITWELL: There are other products where

17 you do the --

18 MR. AMRANE: We have an arm for residential

19 products. It has been used for 20, 30 years in place.

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right, but we don't have a

21 very -- I mean we don't have a --

22 MS. BARHYDT: We don't have a process for
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1 this.

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: We don't have a process that

3 --

4 MR. AMRANE: Don't have a process, but there

5 is a precedent.

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, that's an open rule,

7 too.

8 MR. WHITWELL: So you're starting with a

9 lower volume, more complicated products rather than

10 starting with high volume, simpler products?

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, this the negotiations;

12 right?

13 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah.

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: The scope.

15 MR. HON: Charlie Hon again. You're defining

16 -- he's trying to define that something that -- this

17 rule reaches across a broad band of products.

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. We realize that some

19 of the negotiations, especially with respect to today

20 and tomorrow, may have wider implications than this

21 rule. I mean, than this particular space.

22 MR. HON: Charlie Hon again. Because when we
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1 talk about products and different classifications and

2 different arms, if we ever, AEDMs, if we ever use them,

3 we could easily end up with 30 or 40 AEDMs developed in

4 our -- because of the nature of our products. So we

5 could easily hide behind this and end up with 80 or 90

6 failures before you'd ever really be choking us off.

7 It depends on how many AEDMs we develop and how much

8 database we have behind it.

9 MR. BAUMAN: Does anything -- just relate to

10 Charlie, do we -- and one thing I haven't been sure of

11 -- if somebody's using an AEDM, are they declaring

12 which AEDM? Do you know if they had 80 or 90, or two?

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: We haven't said yet.

14 MR. BAUMAN: I'm not sure that -- okay.

15 MS. BARHYDT: I'll think they'll be in the

16 certification as special.

17 MR. BAUMAN: Okay.

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean so, I think it depends

19 on how you word phase one, which is going to be our

20 only phase. But new testing to validate an AEDM with a

21 validation class, even if you have 10 AEDMs within the

22 validation class, I mean you have to do new testing,
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1 even just if one of those fails. It doesn't say just

2 the models to which that AEDM has applied.

3 MR. BAUMAN: You may want to just -- you're

4 testing that all or any AEDMs within the validation

5 class?

6 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers. Would you

7 repeat that again because that was 180 degrees from my

8 thought what our discussion was that if you had an AEDM

9 that covered this model, this is what you would have to

10 do for the failed AEDM, not if you had 20 AEDMs you had

11 to do this for all 20 AEDMs.

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: No, that's not what I said.

13 If you have 20 -- so the penalties right now are

14 written in terms of validation classes, so mapping up

15 to the number of models you have to test to validate

16 your AEDM. So for example, if you have one AEDM within

17 a validation class, say gas-fired water heaters less

18 than 10 gallons and we find that two models fit, or

19 whatever, you would have to do new testing to validate

20 that AEDM within that validation class. So just two

21 more models, period.

22 Now if, using the same example, if you had 10
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1 AEDMs within that validation class, regardless of

2 whether you have one or 10, the penalties are written

3 per validation class, so you'd still do two.

4 We can change it, but that's what -- I mean -

5 -

6 MR. MYERS: Yeah, I certainly have not put

7 validation class in what I was doing. I was doing per

8 AEDM.

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't see how you would do

10 it any other way; otherwise you can't tell what you had

11 to test.

12 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. This is Bob Whitwell,

13 Carrier. One of the issues with this is that if we

14 look at a particular class, air cold split and packaged

15 heat pumps, and air conditioners greater than or equal

16 to 65 to 760,000 BTU per hour.

17 So you've got single packaged equipment in

18 there. You've got split systems in there. You've got

19 different configurations of single packaged equipment.

20 You've got cooling only. You've got heat pumps.

21 You've got cooling units with gas heat in there.

22 You could have many different AEDMs for that
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1 class that are different depending on the different

2 type of equipment. And to say that if you were to fail

3 units that are in a particular type with using a

4 particular AEDM, and that means you have to -- I mean

5 if you get to that last one you might as well be out of

6 business because you can't test two samples of every

7 basic model. So I don't think that -- I think that's

8 much too severe.

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, I mean, you guys can

10 suggest wording, but remember that you think you can

11 substantiate an AEDM, period, by just using two tests

12 for all of those models. But I can't evaluate it?

13 MR. WHITWELL: It's two models per -- okay,

14 it's two per class as opposed to two per AEDM.

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's two per class, period,

16 the minimum. So you told me that that's all you need

17 to say my model is valid.

18 MR. WHITWELL: No. No, that's what you said

19 was the minimum. That's not what I'm testing to

20 validate --

21 MS. BARHYDT: But the reality is it's a

22 tradeoff. Either you want to minimize the required
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1 testing and make your classes very, very broad --

2 MR. WHITWELL: I just don't know -- I cannot

3 tell every manufacturer what they should do to validate

4 their AEDM. I know what I need to do to validate my

5 AEDM.

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Absolutely.

7 MR. WHITWELL: And I'm going to be testing

8 more than two samples in each class. I will test a lot

9 more than two samples in each class, but that's up to

10 me to figure out what I need.

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: So what is the minimum amount

12 you think that DOE needs to invalidate your AEDMs at

13 some point? I mean really all this is requiring -- so

14 we find two invalid readings, all it's requiring is two

15 more tests. And in theory, with what you just

16 explained, you already have them because you tested a

17 whole lot more.

18 I don't know. I mean, we didn't say that.

19 It just can't be the ones that you've already used. It

20 may very well be that if you have others, it's okay, I

21 don't know.

22 But at some point, what this is doing is
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1 actually -- I mean, if we restrict it to two new tests

2 per AEDM, then you could get up there pretty quick --

3 the numbers add up quicker than these do, other than

4 the last one.

5 MR. WHITWELL: Well, I mean I think, from my

6 perspective, if it's per -- if you are saying that

7 you're going to invalidate every AEDM in this huge

8 class of product that I just described, then --

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: Only by the time we get -- so

10 E is the only -- we're not even invalidating.

11 MR. WHITWELL: Okay, we've got, I don't know

12 what percentage of units you're going to be testing

13 because -- and we need to get to the basic model

14 definition. But eight units is 0.000000 percent, one

15 percent. So it's very small.

16 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers.

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, it depends. You could

18 do it both ways. It's not how it's written.

19 MR. MYERS: I guess I was misreading earlier

20 when we were defining an AEDM and those product

21 classes, I thought you had to do that for every AEDM.

22 So if you had a line of gas water heaters that spanned
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1 a pretty large variety of models, then if you were

2 going to break that down into four AEDMs, then you'd

3 have to have a minimum of eight tests, if you were only

4 in one product class, but a minimum of 16 if you were

5 in two product classes, so that each AEDM you did would

6 have to have two models for each class that you were

7 in.

8 MR. STANONIK: Yeah, this is Frank Stanonik,

9 AHRI. Ashley, if you could go back to your chart

10 there, I mean first of all, again, going back to the

11 last meeting, my discussion of this issue was in the

12 context of an AEDM and all the models for which that

13 AEDM applies. So if your heading said, number of

14 models DOE has tested within three calendar years, all

15 of which are rated using the same AEDM, and which DOE

16 has found invalid readings.

17 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, we would like that.

18 MR. STANONIK: Because that -- you know, the

19 point is that you have this, again, you have this AEDM

20 that you've rated this basket of models, okay? And at

21 some point, if that group of models start to indicate

22 misrating of numerous models within that AEDM, only
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1 that AEDM becomes suspect.

2 Other AEDMs apply to other models, you have

3 no data, you have no information to say that that

4 AEDM's wrong or invalid. And so you can't just make

5 that leap and say just because, for this particular

6 group, if you have this information, that all of a

7 sudden everything else is wrong.

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay, so I'm going to go back

9 one second. So does everybody agree that these are on

10 a per AEDM basis, because I'm going to clarify that?

11 MR. STANONIK: That's how I understood it.

12 Yes.

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. Okay.

14 MR. MYERS: Yeah, that's covered in the

15 heading where it says, validate his or her AEDM prior

16 to use. So I'm thinking it's per AEDM.

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. So then this one would

18 be within an AEDM, the DOE has found that's a valid

19 rating.

20 MR. BALLO: This is Tim Ballo. I have a

21 concern about that because what's to stop a

22 manufacturer from saying oh by the way, I came up with
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1 a new AEDM since you did those last tests and I'm going

2 to change the numbers --

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: They would have to be

4 certified, again.

5 MR. BALLO: Right, and they can certify them

6 at the same level, but just using new AEDM. That --

7 MR. BAUMAN: They'd be tested. They have

8 specific tests to get recertified.

9 MR. BALLO: Right.

10 MR. MYERS: That's what that part is for, is

11 to avoid that.

12 MS. HOOTMAN: And this is Jill from Trane.

13 We've got to have a way of approving our AEDM, we're

14 going to continue this improvement over AEDMs. So I

15 mean, every single time we get a test, we're looking

16 back at those models and change it.

17 MR. EISNER: Okay, I don't see any hands

18 going up. Everybody's exhausted? Nothing else to say?

19 MR. MYERS: Well, I think we were down to the

20 validation class. You have to do all AEDMs within a

21 validation class, and that's where all of this started,

22 where we were saying the new testing to validate the
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1 revised AEDM, not all AEDMs within a validation class.

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: It doesn't say all, right?

3 But for example if you applied that AEDM to four

4 validation classes, do you believe that you would need

5 new test data to resubstantiate each of those?

6 MR. MYERS: Right. Okay. So you're setting

7 the word "the" in front of AEDM.

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.

9 MR. MYERS: Go ahead. That makes sense.

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay.

11 MR. KLEISS: If I have five AEDMs within a

12 product class, and you test products from two different

13 AEDMs, and both of them fail --

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: This hasn't kicked in yet.

15 MR. KLEISS: Then they're still okay because

16 they're two different AEDMs.

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.

18 MR. KLEISS: And that seems to me wrong.

19 MR. STEPHENS: I think those are on a

20 different level.

21 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, AHRI. I mean

22 Jeff may have that opinion but the fact is, what we
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1 know, what we know from testing and manufacturing, is

2 that for any given model, it is a lot more likely to

3 get a failure because of either, let's call it

4 production error, a faulty component, a test mistake,

5 all kind of things, okay. And it is just more likely

6 that the single test indicates in fact a problem with

7 that particular model and not your broader AEDM.

8 MR. WHITWELL: That unit you mean, the unit.

9 MR. STANONIK: Yeah, but the unit if you're

10 verifying the rating of that model, right? And so just

11 because if you've got two different AEDMs, again you

12 need to treat the singular test as a singular data

13 point. And the first place to look when you have that

14 singular data point is that particular model, because

15 there's just more things that go wrong there first that

16 are just, you know -- reality interjects into

17 everybody's grand designs, whether it's how you design

18 a product or how your production line is supposed to

19 run, or what components you're supposed to get, or how

20 the test is supposed to run. And reality comes up and

21 says well, you know what? It doesn't always work that

22 way.
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1 MR. MYERS: It's Frank Myers. Additionally,

2 Jeff, if you have broken it down into multiple AEDMs,

3 that means you've run multiple validation tests, so you

4 have more testing spread over that family so it may

5 well be that you only had a problem with that one and

6 not the other.

7 MR. FLY: Mark Fly with AAON. At any of

8 these phases, at this point is DOE asking for the test

9 data and the validations?

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, we would ask for all

11 these.

12 MR. FLY: At this point, you're going to ask;

13 right?

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah.

15 MR. FLY: You're going to be involved.

16 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah.

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: You have to -- I mean, you

18 know by the time you get to two, you will get a letter

19 for her with --

20 MR. FLY: Show me your test data.

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- process and everything

22 else.
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1 MR. FLY: Okay.

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: It will be sweet, you know,

3 from her.

4 MR. FLY: Yeah, from the general taxes office

5 of DOE, yeah.

6 MS. HOOTMAN: But if you do not comply, da da

7 da da.

8 MR. FLY: Yeah.

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: Those are minor issues off

10 the bottom, minor.

11 MS. MEYERS: So if you fail one assessment

12 test, then you're going to have to provide new testing

13 to validate your AEDM.

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: No, no, you don't.

15 MR. MYERS: Two within three calendar years.

16 That's the number up until now.

17 MS. MEYERS: Well is that two assessment

18 tests or you test one unit, let's say it fails, you go

19 back and test it again and you're present, and it

20 fails, that's two. So you've now --

21 MS. HOOTMAN: No, no, no. That was not even

22 counted as a failure until your second one.
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right.

2 MS. MEYERS: All right. Okay, that's where I

3 keep missing it. All right, thank you. I'm onboard

4 now.

5 MR. AMRANE: But will there be provision for

6 example in case of a defective unit or something like

7 that? I mean let's say you test, you do one test and

8 it's, I don't know, 50 percent off, whatever.

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: We have gone through our

10 process to get to an invalid rating.

11 MS. BARHYDT: There was a provision before --

12 MR. AMRANE: Before, okay.

13 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, there's a process.

14 They're going to talk about --

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: We've gotten through this

16 whole process that we've negotiated before.

17 MR. AMRANE: Okay. All right, fine.

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: I keep losing that. We'll

19 get there. There, we've gotten through all of this.

20 We have a valid test, we have an invalid rating, and

21 here we are.

22 MR. AMRANE: Here we are.
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Now we have multiple ones

2 within a given AEDM.

3 MS. HOOTMAN: That's making you go.

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Hmm. What's going on?

5 MS. HOOTMAN: Okay.

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, I'll let you do your

7 thing here.

8 MR. EISNER: Any more comments on this chart?

9 MR. WHITWELL: Sorry, just one. So we still

10 have to come back and look at what the numbers are;

11 right? These are kind of place holders for now until

12 we understand what the count is that we're willing to

13 talk about.

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, that's fine.

15 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. I

16 believe we need a little bit more clarification on the

17 top right hand, new testing to validate. You don't say

18 what that new testing is. Is it per the tables above?

19 MS. HOOTMAN: Is it physical testing or could

20 other test data be provided?

21 MR. SHEBIK: Other test data that had not

22 been used to substantiate the ten tests.
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1 MR. EISNER: What we said earlier, if you did

2 four but only two were required, you can use the two

3 you didn't choose.

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: We said that could be on the

5 table.

6 MS. BARHYDT: That's enough.

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: But it seems that at this

8 point -- I mean, if you have that, right, and you

9 actually use it to validate your AEDM, and you still

10 came out with multiple invalid ratings, something's

11 wrong. So maybe new test data really is the right way

12 to go here.

13 MR. SHEBIK: But the reason I ask that is

14 they go out, what if you have a bad component in the

15 case, say a bad anti-sweat heater; it's running too

16 high a wattage, so it puts you over. The manufacturer

17 labeled it wrong, they put a wrong label on it. So

18 okay, so you fail your test twice because of the bad

19 heater. You identify the problem. Okay, so say you

20 have two similar things. You identify the problem as

21 being a component error.

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah.
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1 MR. SHEBIK: Can you use additional testing,

2 that you had already done during the year, to

3 resubstantiate, provided that you don't have the same

4 kind of component failure?

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't -- I mean --

6 MS. BARHYDT: It's a weird situation.

7 MR. SHEBIK: I think if you identify whether

8 it's a component failure or they see a problem with --

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: It is what it is; right? I

10 don't know, you know.

11 MR. STANONIK: Ashley, let me try and --

12 Frank's right. If your circumstance, okay, so let's

13 say that happened --

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Wouldn't you know if you had

15 tested it?

16 MR. STANONIK: And you go back to the options

17 before, you know the process to determine the fact it's

18 a missed rating, you would have to have data that

19 showed that if that component was correct, it would

20 have hit the rating; right?

21 MR. SHEBIK: Right.

22 MR. STANONIK: Okay. So if you have that
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1 data and you're in this process of where you're in

2 discussion with DOE because there's been some test

3 results that indicated failure, and you could in fact

4 pinpoint that okay the problem was we had a component

5 that was consuming too much energy, you know not my

6 design component, to me that one is, you know -- and

7 you have the data to say if it was the correct

8 component, I have data to show it passes, why do you

9 need to fix the AEDM?

10 MR. SHEBIK: That's what I'm asking. The

11 AEDM, you're going to have to. If it's component

12 failure, is it really not an AEDM problem then? You've

13 had your test and your retest.

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: The problem, if you -- it's

15 only a problem to the extent that you calibrated your

16 model to test data that's perhaps invalid; right?

17 MR. SHEBIK: Okay, I understand. And if you

18 hadn't done that so then you're --

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: To the extent that you've

20 calibrated your model such that you have a certain

21 anti- sweat heater wattage in there, which is

22 significantly different from the one that your
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1 component supplier, and your calibration is then off,

2 then my answer is yes, something needs to change;

3 right? Now, whether it needs to be changed --

4 MR. SHEBIK: So (inaudible).

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. But whether that

6 needs to be changed -- right, so -- whether it needs to

7 be changed -- well, that -- right, so -- but whether

8 that needs to be, you know, whether you can do that an

9 AEDM change or whether you need new testing to do that,

10 I don't know that I know the answer to that, but

11 something is off. The calibration, by default, is off.

12 MR. SHEBIK: So before you get to the point

13 of this table, does the manufacturer negotiate with DOE

14 and say, here, we identified a problem. Here's a

15 problem with a bad component. It's nothing to do with

16 the way we rated the case or the way we tested the

17 case, it's the fact that the component was bad and

18 therefore we can validate here's why we have the issue.

19 With the correct component, here's what it should be.

20 MR. WHITWELL: Isn't that a part of the

21 discussion you have when you have that test failure and

22 you go through and say you know it's a defective unit.
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1 Here's why it's a defective unit. This compressor was

2 only performing at 75 percent of what it should have

3 been. Right? If that's where that discussion

4 (inaudible).

5 MS. HOOTMAN: Some of it.

6 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, AHRI. Keep in

7 mind the time aspect of this. This is two tests over

8 three years, okay. So again, let's use your example.

9 So you had one that failed because of a bad component,

10 and now DOE tested another model, six months later --

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: And you still have the --

12 MR. STANONIK: And it also failed because of

13 the same bad component?

14 MR. SHEBIK: Different component. Listen,

15 I'm throwing out a hypothetical situation.

16 MR. STANONIK: Well, different components.

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah.

18 MR. STANONIK: And you have to show that it's

19 --

20 MS HOOTMAN: And I'll use a real -- this is

21 Jill from Trane -- I'll use a real life example. It's

22 been years ago but, you know we had a split system. It
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1 was tested. The coil was clogged all up with solder,

2 bad, bad quality problem with the manufacturer. When

3 we -- you know, our braised joint was just awful; okay?

4 So throw that test out, do another test, because

5 essentially we said that was a bad component. Second

6 one, now we have a condenser fan that is having

7 problems from a manufacturer, and it's now out. This

8 happens to be over about 18 months when this all gets

9 done, you know, and it's been about 15 years ago.

10 But you can have consistent component hits.

11 One was an internal quality problem, another is a

12 supplier quality problem, and it could all happen on

13 one model. I can tell you that it happened.

14 MR. RIVEST: So during this dialogue to

15 verify a problem was an AEDM problem, a component

16 problem, it would be possible for the manufacturer to

17 show what this purchases is -- actually were for that

18 component --

19 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah, like in this case with

20 AHRI what we do is -- on the coil one, we physically

21 had to get the unit back, cut it apart, and then we

22 showed the problems once we cut it apart, where the
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1 solder problem was and where it was clogged, clogging

2 up the coil. But, that wasn't done at the test, you

3 had to literally get it back and do it. And then yeah,

4 we were able to show the records of why they, or how

5 they supplied condenser fans incorrectly.

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, one thing is we could

7 leave this as new testing or additional testing or

8 retesting to validate the AEDM. And you could work it

9 out with Laura in terms of if you can use your existing

10 test data because of those instances, or if you need

11 new testing altogether on different models, because we

12 can't -- are you comfortable with that?

13 I mean you have the exact -- at the most, to

14 the extent it's an AEDM applied just to a validation

15 class, that would be two units. You know, and at the

16 most, for a commercial HVAC, it would be 18 across

17 every single type we have. And to the extent you want

18 to negotiate using -- you can show her, during the

19 course of that discussion, that you have additional

20 data and this is what the problem was and you

21 documented it. Would that be sufficient?

22 MR. EISNER: Basically, you're saying we
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1 could use new, but that could be interpreted by Laura

2 to include testing that was done --

3 MS. BARHYDT: Based on the facts.

4 MR. EISNER: Based on the facts we have.

5 MS. BARHYDT: Neil, I just want to make sure

6 what you said, new would be at your --

7 MS. HOOTMAN: New --

8 MS. BARHYDT: Meaning different from what you

9 used before.

10 MR. WHITWELL: So maybe the word could be

11 additional.

12 MR. SHEBIK: Different units, but --

13 MS. BARHYDT: I don't like additional as well

14 because it makes it sound like you're still using the

15 old stuff, which was the basis of the bad rating.

16 Whereas new sort of implies that --

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Different.

18 MR. SHEBIK: Different.

19 MS. BARHYDT: So different (inaudible)

20 1.43.25

21 MR. SHEBIK: New, but not necessarily new.

22 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah.
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1 MR. EISNER: Again, in my experience, you can

2 write a rule that says new, and they can explain in the

3 rule examples of what they would accept. And they seem

4 to be saying we're willing to accept the examples that

5 you've just thrown out as being a new test that we can

6 use for validation purposes or whatever it is.

7 MR. SHEBIK: I'm fine with that. So you

8 basically -- the manufacturer can negotiate with you

9 and open up a discussion as to why we have a problem.

10 MR. EISNER: And they can explain again in

11 the preamble. Instead of trying to write 15 sentences

12 explaining what new means in the rule text, they

13 explain in the preamble, an example of what would be a

14 new test would be the following.

15 We have a question from Joe Saunders, if you

16 can patch him in. Joe, you have a question? Joe

17 Saunders?

18 MR. SAUNDERS: Can you hear me?

19 MR. EISNER: Yes.

20 MR. SAUNDERS: Hello?

21 MR. EISNER: Can you hear us?

22 MR. SAUNDERS: Can you hear me?
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1 MR. EISNER: We can hear you. Can you hear

2 us?

3 MR. SAUNDERS: I can hear you.

4 MR. EISNER: Go ahead with your question.

5 MR. SAUNDERS: I had a couple of questions.

6 One was what's the time period in between failures that

7 counts as failure, meaning if you have a defective fan

8 motor and it's rolling down the production line and

9 you're not aware of it and you do the first test

10 screening and then your model failed, what's the time

11 period before it's considered the second failure point?

12 Because you could have had multiple weeks going without

13 your knowledge?

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: We would have to have two

15 separate tests. There is no time period other than we

16 have two separate tests within a three year period, or

17 four or six or eight.

18 MR. SAUNDERS: I know, but what happens --

19 like I understand the total of three years, but what

20 happens if the two tests run within three months or

21 three weeks?

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't think we're testing
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1 your products back-to-back within a three-week period.

2 MR. SAUNDERS: I know but it doesn't say

3 that. Anything's up for interpretation. And then the

4 other one had to do with statistics in with this, and

5 it had to do with what the gentleman was just saying.

6 If you test a product that has an obviously

7 defective component, manufacturer defect, vendor

8 defect, whatever it is, do you really want to include

9 those in a statistical analysis? And we're not talking

10 about design; we're talking about obvious manufacturing

11 defects or supplier defects. What I think we're after

12 is design flaws versus, you know, someone's inability

13 to supply something correctly.

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, I think to the extent

15 that you want to have discussions around what is a

16 defect and what qualifies as a defect and those types

17 of things --

18 MR. SAUNDERS: Right.

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: Our point is it's an invalid

20 reading. Now whether it's a defective component,

21 whether it's a manufacturing issue, whatever it is,

22 those are the types of discussions that I'm not sure we
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1 could categorize by a broad statement. It's the type

2 of discussions you're going to have to have with Laura

3 when you get to that point. Yeah.

4 MR. SAUNDERS: I think the fear many of us

5 have, we're manufacturing mechanical devices versus

6 things that are like solid state, like a TV set. And

7 mechanical devices have the propensity to have failures

8 even on additional shipments. And then the sample size

9 is so small that one unit can affect the outcome of how

10 companies have to operate. So that's kind of where I'm

11 at, in the two things that I see in this discussion

12 current.

13 MR. EISNER: Let me call on one other person.

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: I do want to let this

15 conversation kind of go for a little while.

16 MR. SAUNDERS: Okay.

17 MR. EISNER: No, but I think he may have a

18 comment on this.

19 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

20 MR. EISNER: I've had his thing for a few

21 minutes. Jonathan Hunt, are you online?

22 MR. HUNT: I mean, actually my comment isn't
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1 really on the subject, but I had a problem getting in.

2 I'll toss it out, but you might have to come back to

3 it. I know (inaudible) as a template for tolerance,

4 tolerancing, penalty issues before the testing. I also

5 want to know if there's any (inaudible) program. It

6 sounds difficult.

7 MR. EISNER: Can you speak a little louder,

8 Jon?

9 MR. HUNT: Is this better?

10 MR. EISNER: Yes.

11 MR. HUNT: Okay. My question is if we're

12 using AHRI as a good example to set up the tolerance

13 scheme and perhaps penalty scheming, are we going to

14 look at any way to introduce a mix match sort of

15 opportunity as AHRI has done? Because it seems that

16 with an ICM, a lot of the difficulty is extrapolating

17 or interpreting data and adding additional error to the

18 AEDM. I know this may not exactly be on topic but I

19 have a little bit of a problem with (inaudible)

20 question.

21 MR. EISNER: Should we get back to this?

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, I think we'll table
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1 that. Let's go back to the --

2 MR. HUNT: Yeah, we could definitely come

3 back to it, I just wanted to come in and explain the

4 question.

5 MR. EISNER: Okay. Charlie?

6 MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon. I'm getting

7 very frustrated with some of this meeting because we as

8 a manufacturer have responsibility to test the incoming

9 quality of components, test the final product validity,

10 and now we're just constantly playing this game, what

11 if, what if, what if somebody else is messing up our

12 product.

13 It's our responsibility to know if they're

14 messing up our product because there's laws on the

15 books that say you will meet this minimum requirement.

16 And if we're not meeting the minimum requirement

17 because of all of our sub-componentry failing, I know

18 we'd get penalized for it. That is our responsibility

19 to make sure that when the product leaves our facility,

20 we're supposed to meet the standard.

21 MR. AMRANE: So for you there is no

22 tolerance. I mean everything that leaves the factory
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1 must be --

2 MR. HON: There is tolerance; that's what

3 those extra numbers are down there for.

4 MR. ARMANE: No, we're talking about

5 defective.

6 MR. HON: Yeah.

7 MR. ARMANE: So for you there's no defective

8 units? I mean, there's nothing that can happen in

9 transport, there's nothing that can happen --

10 MR. HON: In transportation you'll see, this

11 is a serious issue but that's the reason we have

12 numbers up there that if DOE tests eight of our units

13 in a three- year period, they spent a lot of money

14 here. This is a very expensive process sometimes, and

15 I'm sure that isn't that all of the units weren't

16 manufacturing. I just think we need to be facing up to

17 some responsibilities here that we are responsible for

18 the final product quality and final product efficiency

19 of the components we release.

20 MR. AMRANE: And I think manufacturers are,

21 but things happen.

22 MR. HON: That's why we have these numbers up
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1 here which allow things to happen and still make it

2 work.

3 MS. HOOTMAN: Are you making millions? Are

4 you making millions?

5 MR. HON: Of any individual unit? No.

6 MS. HOOTMAN: Okay.

7 MR. HON: No, not even close.

8 MS. HOOTMAN: Don't speak for us. I highly

9 disagree. I do not want to throw out ratings on

10 millions of units for one test. Sorry.

11 MR. SACHS: Jill, this is Harvey Sachs.

12 Jill's come back to my question that there really, and

13 for that matter Geoff Halley's, that there really is a

14 difference between the custom units and the production

15 ones.

16 But I want to flip the discussion because we

17 got a whole bunch of honorable people around the table

18 here, but we have certainly seen less than honorable

19 actors shipping product in the United States within the

20 last decade.

21 And I think the question we have to be asking

22 is, is that scheme sufficient to protect the honorable
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1 manufacturers by alerting the community quickly enough

2 to those who would systematically undercut and cheat.

3 And I think that gets to Charlie's

4 perspective. That's really what my concern has to be

5 from groups that I'm representing. Is this enough to

6 keep your playing field where it ought to be? Are you

7 going to find the bad guy to be able to cut him out?

8 It's always a guy.

9 MS. HOOTMAN: And Harvey, without penalizing

10 the honorable ones.

11 MR. SACHS: With minimum impact.

12 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes.

13 MR. SACHS: Because obviously there's going

14 to be some burden in any program. So are we -- is this

15 enough to maintain a -- to get a good balance between

16 protecting the good guys and quickly pushing the bad

17 guys out?

18 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers. Harvey, I'd

19 like to speak to that. I think this is a very -- for

20 custom equipment and for highly specialized equipment,

21 and for commercial and industrial equipment -- this is

22 pretty aggressive. In fact, it's really aggressive.
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1 But there's a whole other specter that we

2 shouldn't lose sight of, and that is the first failure,

3 after all we went through and it was in fact a failure,

4 it's going to public record, and I'm just waiting, I'm

5 going to find out about it.

6 And if that bad player is out there, I'm

7 probably going to buy a couple of his units and test

8 them and provide that data to DOE so they can test not

9 one or two but four, five or six of them and they run

10 up that circle in a hurry.

11 So I think that's one that is not here in the

12 language that we're proposing, but is a powerful player

13 in terms of those bad eggs.

14 MR. SACHS: And that challenge of testing is

15 been a part of AHRI for a week or two anyhow. Back

16 before Gamble (ph) was grown up or something.

17 MR. MYERS: Harvey, this goes beyond AHRI in

18 this instance because those players that are not in the

19 AHRI program -- now AHRI has a challenge process to go

20 out if there's somebody that's not in their program,

21 but the manufacturers have to really, really find that

22 that's something to do. But if they can make a call to
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1 DOE and say hey, here's what we found and here's the

2 data, that's a much easier thing to do.

3 MR. SACHS: Now what I'm hearing, and I'm not

4 sure is what you meant me to hear, is that as a

5 specialty manufacturer big chunks that don't go easily

6 to third party labs, and are largely custom, you can

7 live with this. So now the question, in my mind, if I

8 were Neil, is what does it take to make Jill happy?

9 MS. HOOTMAN: On this one, in all honesty,

10 Harvey, to answer your question, on this one, I'm

11 almost there but I really need to vet it against some

12 statistical things within my company to figure out if

13 it does in fact penalize us more or not, and I can't

14 answer it here today.

15 MR. KLEISS: I mean I need some

16 clarification. Could you just go back to the slide

17 where we were please? Okay, if you have two failures,

18 you need different test data. So I need a minimum of

19 two to validate my AEDM. I've got to take two different

20 points to validate my AEDM. So if I have four fail,

21 where we say additional validation testing doubled,

22 should that be doubled minimum?
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah.

2 MR. KLEISS: Not because I'm a good player

3 and I use actually 10 points to validate my AEDM I have

4 to double that?

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: I would double that.

6 MS. BARHYDT: It means double the regulatory

7 --

8 MR. KLEISS: Can we please make that clear?

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, I mean, I don't have

10 the wording, and like I said, as came across last time,

11 we'll write this up actually in a Word document to

12 circulate for final approval at the next meeting, but -

13 -

14 MR. EISNER: Jill, is some -- I'm sorry,

15 finish, finish up.

16 MR. KLEISS: So I think part of this, this

17 kind of weights things in a way that whereas the

18 consequences for a custom manufacturer of having to go

19 and produce more test data to validate an AEDM is a

20 much heavier than a burden than I think a large company

21 that's doing very high volume.

22 Whereas once you start if the -- there is the
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1 consequence of getting some more failures for these

2 high volumes that you're more likely to have to test

3 that you have potentially I guess more resources at

4 additional test points for validating your AEDM is

5 maybe less of a burden proportionately on those high

6 volume players.

7 MS. HOOTMAN: Well or you're throwing out,

8 for one test or two tests, you're throwing out millions

9 of models because of that. And I don't know that that

10 statistically really makes sense, so that's why I'm

11 want to --

12 MR. SACHS: Are we throwing them out or just

13 asking for recalibration of the AEDM?

14 MS. HOOTMAN: Which -- yeah, I think you are,

15 but that's --

16 MR. EISNER: Jill, is this something you

17 could resolve overnight so we could put this to rest?

18 MS. HOOTMAN: If I could have that, possibly.

19 MS. MEYERS: Well, you know, well this is

20 Karen with Rheem and I --

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think we have to get to

22 this discussion first.
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1 MS. MEYERS: We have to -- I don't know what

2 number -- I mean, we've got that table and it's got

3 model numbers and I still --

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: I understand, which is why I

5 said we need to move on.

6 MS. MEYERS: We've got to define what models

7 means because this is just too --

8 MR. EISNER: That's agreed. We've got to get

9 to that issue. I'm asking, Jill says, as I understood

10 it, close but not there yet. And if she can resolve it

11 over --

12 MS. HOOTMAN: And it's a valid point. That's

13 a valid --

14 MS. MEYERS: Well, I'm not there either

15 because I don't know what models means.

16 MR. EISNER: It's another issue, we've all

17 agreed to that.

18 MS. MEYERS: So until we define what models,

19 I could not vote to approve this because I don't know

20 what the term models means.

21 MR. EISNER: But isn't that going to be true

22 for so many of the issues we're discussing?
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1 MS. MEYERS: We have got to get to that

2 discussion --

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Which is why the next slide

4 starts that discussion.

5 MR. EISNER: I understand.

6 MR. MYERS: Before we leave this slide, I

7 have one other thing down at the bottom, just a

8 correction. But I didn't want to step into the --

9 MR. EISNER: Go ahead.

10 MR. MYERS: -- conversation. This is Frank

11 Myers. The way it's written right now, there isn't a,

12 you can get back on the AEDM role. As I had that

13 written that first one, it's what you have there. But

14 once you've done that, if you want to add additional

15 models in that range with an AEDM, you can generate a

16 new AEDM and you're back to using that.

17 You still have all the tests that you ran, so

18 you wouldn't have to do that. But if you want to have

19 a new AEDM that covers that area, that you could

20 generate a new AEDM with the same two per class, but

21 none of the values that that new AEDM came out could be

22 any lower than all of those test models. So it gives
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1 you a path to get back on the AEDM role as you move

2 forward.

3 MR. EISNER: So you're proposing language to

4 be added to the chart?

5 MR. MYERS: Yes.

6 MR. EISNER: DOE, how do you feel about that?

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't even know that it's

8 necessary.

9 MS. BARHYDT: Are you suggesting a way to get

10 yourself out of this cycle or --

11 MR. MYERS: Well you've already done this,

12 but if you had -- I suppose you could write another

13 AEDM that picked one out of here and one out -- as you

14 added new models, where you didn't have to do two per,

15 you could do an AEDM, I want to introduce a new family

16 within that same range. Could I use that, the old AEDM

17 four and I want to come out with a new AEDM, you could

18 do it after you did this.

19 MR. EISNER: That's already permitted; isn't

20 it?

21 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Yeah.

22 MR. EISNER: No, you've already fixed this
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1 problem. You always have the authority under the --

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: We haven't gotten rid of your

3 ability to use an AEDM. However, what we've said is

4 you get to go to the -- for everything that that given

5 AEDM, basically that AEDM is invalid. You test all --

6 going forward, there's nothing precluding you from

7 using a new or a different AEDM.

8 MR. MYERS: Okay. If that's --

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: At least the way it's written

10 right now.

11 MR. MYERS: If that's embedded in this, then

12 I'm good. That's all I was asking for.

13 MR. FLY: And is it understood that AEDMs and

14 ratings can change at any point in time in this

15 process? If I determine that, you know, I'm in four and

16 I want to get to six, I go back and rerate my models.

17 MR. MYERS: The same AEDM, but --

18 MR. FLY: The same AEDM, but lower --

19 MR. MYERS: -- minus one point on the

20 existing AEDM before I have to give myself a little

21 cushion, I think you can do that.

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, I mean you would have
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1 to recertify. It's all going to hinge around how you

2 recertify to us and what you declare.

3 MR. FLY: Right, but there is no timing

4 restrictions.

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: You can always recertify.

6 You can recertify daily if you want.

7 MR. FLY: I can recertify at any point.

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Not saying you'd want to but

9 you can.

10 MR. STEPHENS: Phil Stephens, HTP. I'm not

11 entirely sure I'm comfortable with the consequence for

12 six, simply because our company doesn't fit the

13 standard mode. We're a small company but we tend to

14 have a lot of product offerings, a lot of basic model

15 groups, a lot of basic models.

16 So we're in between everything and if we have

17 to go to a third party with the double minimum

18 requirements, then that's by default the NCAA kiss of

19 death to us. That's a major thing. I mean, we would

20 have no option for eight; that six would do us in.

21 MR. KLEISS: But that would just be for that

22 one AEDM.
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: You have to get six within

2 again an AEDM, so I mean, what are the odds of that?

3 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Within three years.

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Within three years, yeah.

5 MR. STEPHENS: Yes, I understand but to the

6 point, things happen with suppliers, different things

7 happen. Yes, we are accountable for it and it's -- my

8 point is that --

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, the whole -- these

10 are structured such that we don't get there.

11 MR. STEPHENS: Right.

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: We don't get to six. We

13 don't get to eight.

14 MR. STEPHENS: But my point is that those

15 last two blocks won't be equivalent regardless of the

16 size of the company; right? Those first two blocks,

17 yes, they're reasonable within whatever size of the

18 company you have. But those last two, you're going to

19 differentiate between the small companies in an

20 industry and the large companies in the industry really

21 quickly.

22 MR. MYERS: So Phil, would you feel
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1 differently if instead of saying double, you just have

2 to get your two per class validated by a third party?

3 MR. STEPHENS: Two per class or one and a

4 half times internally. Anything like that, either or.

5 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers. I

6 understand what you're saying. I had proposed double

7 minimums because the previous one had double, but in

8 terms of severity, it is going bad, worse, horrific and

9 then you may not even reach beyond horrific. I

10 understand what you're saying, so it would still be in

11 a proper progression if the six made you do the two at

12 a third party lab.

13 MR. STEPHENS: Or if it's two and a half

14 times internal, that's still understandable.

15 MR. EISNER: Paul?

16 MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel, Mitsubishi. Point

17 of clarification. So if one unit is being tested, but

18 there is a problem with EER and COP, that's one, okay.

19 Because I don't think we have that defined anyplace.

20 MR. ARMANE: I think it's just EER.

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's a certified rating, so

22 we consider it that is your rating, I suppose.
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1 MR. DOPPEL: Okay.

2 MR. BAUMAN: Is it if you -- go ahead.

3 MR. AMRANE: If you fail one and not the

4 other, it's hard or it's just one.

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, do you want his to be

6 two?

7 MR. DOPPEL: If one unit fails both, it's

8 still one.

9 MR. BAUMAN: It's one unit.

10 MR. DOPPEL: Okay.

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Unless we take the Crane

12 methodology, it would be two.

13 MR. ARMANE: Or half of one.

14 MR. DOPPEL: I'll move away from him.

15 MR. BAUMAN: Is the intent that the

16 consequences for two and four are the same; just four

17 is double testing for two?

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct.

19 MR. BAUMAN: So should we change the wording

20 so they're basically the same except for you add double

21 --

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: No, it means new. So four
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1 means new testing there. Not existing testing.

2 MR. BAUMAN: Okay. What I'm saying is,

3 should the wording of the consequences for number two

4 and four be exactly the same except for four you have

5 the double minimum?

6 MS. BARHYDT: I'm sure we talked about

7 letting them use existing --

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct. I would say --

9 MR. BAUMAN: Because they're worded very

10 differently.

11 MS. BARHYDT: Is it intentional for his --

12 MR. SHEBIK: Yeah, you use a different

13 testing --

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: This is additional.

15 MR. SHEBIK: You tested ten, you can use one

16 as one to ten, or two to ten.

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: This would not allow you to

18 use the same testing.

19 MR. BAUMAN: Okay.

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: For this one, you know we

21 could do one and a half where the first, like a single

22 set is done at a third party laboratory and an
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1 additional would be done at your own. Would you be

2 comfortable with that?

3 MR. STEPHENS: Yes.

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: More comfortable with that?

5 Okay.

6 MR. MYERS: But even that's a -- he's right,

7 that's a really big deal.

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: This is not going to be very

9 well-worded, but minimum at third party laboratory and

10 half of minimum and a half are at manufacturer's third

11 party laboratory.

12 MR. MYERS: And it's going to be of the two

13 tests, one of the two per class is going to be in-house

14 and one of the tests per class is going to be at a

15 third party lab?

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: No. It means two at a third

17 party lab, one in yours. So one and a half total.

18 MR. BAUMAN: So you're not getting a four,

19 getting double there; right? Okay.

20 MR. MYERS: That's a half more than I was

21 thinking.

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct. But not at a third
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1 party facility.

2 MR. EISNER: More issues? More concerns?

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: We could do half and half. I

4 mean --

5 MR. EISNER: Do you want to change that or

6 no?

7 MR. MYERS: Phil, that's -- what I believe I

8 heard you say was one, you would feel much better if it

9 was of the two per class, if one was at the third party

10 lab and one was in-house. So if you cross two classes

11 before test, one for each of those classes at a third

12 party lab and one for each of those classes in-house.

13 This is saying two per each class, total of four, if

14 that's what you cross, at a third party, and one for

15 each class in-house.

16 MR. STEPHENS: I think that's an acceptable

17 compromise. I think it's a pain, it's a burden, it's a

18 major financial penalty, and the bottom one is our

19 jobs.

20 MR. EISNER: So change it to one of each

21 class.

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: No, he said he was okay with
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1 it.

2 MR. EISNER: He's okay with it.

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. I mean, obviously I

4 need to work out the language, which would be in the

5 Word document translation, but --

6 MR. EISNER: Right. Any other issues,

7 concerns? All right, we're putting this off until

8 tomorrow, as I understand it, unless there's an

9 objection, raise your hand. And Jill's going to check

10 overnight on her concern to see if it's been addressed

11 or if it can be addressed.

12 MS. HOOTMAN: Part of that is the model

13 discussion we're going to get to.

14 MR. EISNER: Yeah. Now if we do not finish

15 the model testing --

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's been like a horror of my

17 life for two years.

18 MS. HOOTMAN: There's a lot of things hanging

19 out there.

20 MR. EISNER: Yeah. We will put Ashley's

21 birthing off for another few weeks.

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Oh no, we won't.
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1 MR. EISNER: One of the things to consider,

2 think about it overnight, is whether you want to vote

3 on agreeing with this, subject to the resolution of the

4 issues that we're going to face in the separate rule

5 making, so that the first rule making can go ahead.

6 And the condition would be that an individual

7 has a right to go back and change the vote on this

8 issue if not happy with the vote on grouping issues and

9 whatever else might be related.

10 So I'm not saying let's discuss it now. I'm

11 not saying let's vote now, let's put that off to

12 tomorrow, but be prepared to discuss that, because

13 again DOE has said, they want to move ahead with the

14 other rulemaking, and I don't think we're going to

15 finish grouping tomorrow at the rate we're going, at

16 least from what I've been told about the difficulty of

17 the issue.

18 MR. MYERS: This is Frank. When I look at

19 that, when I look at the two, and four, and six, and

20 eight, what I'm really seeing is units tested within

21 whatever you're certifying with that AEDM. And so does

22 it really in somehow a basic model group?
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't think it matters.

2 MR. MYERS: If we're saying -- and we will

3 have to identify this model is certified under this

4 AEDM so the DOE will know what AEDM is being used. But

5 if you're looking at a single AEDM, if they test five

6 of the same model, which they wouldn't do, but if they

7 tested five, that's five tests. If you fail them all

8 that's five tests you failed.

9 So I don't see where basic model group in

10 this instance comes into play. It looks like we have

11 everything we need for you to go back and talk to your

12 folks because I don't think -- a decision on basic

13 model group, as I see it now, I don't see where that

14 impacts this.

15 MR. WHITWELL: It changes the denominator

16 when you start to look at percentages.

17 MR. MYERS: Where are percentages on there?

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well it's this right here.

19 MR. WHITWELL: Well, I mean if you take those

20 numbers there and you say what percentage of units are

21 being tested, if it's 100 basic models, then you know

22 that's -- so two, it's one percent, right. I mean,
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1 it's two percent.

2 MR. MYERS: So you have concerns that DOE

3 will be testing a hundred basic models?

4 MR. WHITWELL: No, no, no. If it's a --

5 let's say, depending on what the basic model definition

6 is, if we have a hundred, then we're talking about two

7 percent failures to get to the first one. I don't have

8 a -- I mean that's not something that I expect we would

9 ever get to.

10 But if it's, you know, worst case, we're

11 talking about millions of basic models, you know I

12 don't know how many units DOE is expecting to test, but

13 two units is a very small percentage of the --

14 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. And throwing out an

15 AEDM on those two --

16 MR. DOPPEL: But if you still had two

17 failures. If you had two failures --

18 MR. WHITMAN: Until we know what the basic

19 model definition is, we don't know what percentage this

20 represents.

21 MS. HOOTMAN: That's just the point. If you

22 had two failures that --
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: How about this? How about of

2 three?

3 MS. HOOTMAN: And millions of models.

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: And then the next major --

5 MR. DOPPEL: Okay, Paul Doppel with

6 Mitsubishi. No, but it doesn't, to me, what I'm

7 understanding though, if you had two failures, it

8 doesn't matter how many models or whatever you have,

9 you still have two failures and that applies.

10 MS. BARHYDT: That's the way it's written I

11 guess.

12 MR. MYERS: It's little bitty manufacturers

13 that get hit. I might have an AEDM that covers four

14 units, four model numbers. And if I have two failures,

15 they had tested 50 percent of what I might make out of

16 that in three years.

17 MR. DOPPEL: Yeah, well, if you had four

18 models then it would make more sense to just test all

19 four models.

20 MR. MYERS: And I might do that. I might do

21 that. But what I'm saying is it's the very small

22 manufacturers that would be at the very risk of this.
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1 MR. EISNER: Could it be a percentage of

2 whatever is agreed to --

3 MR. DOPPEL: I think percentage makes more

4 sense.

5 MS. MEYERS: Then the consequence applies

6 because 50 percent of your models are, you know.

7 MR. EISNER: Yeah, so if it said --

8 MS. MEYERS: But if it's .0002 percent of

9 your models then the consequences --

10 MR. THARP: For the purposes thus, until we

11 discuss basic models, can we just say levels AE and CE?

12 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Yeah, that sounds

13 better.

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, let's just leave it for

15 now. We're going to come back to it regardless.

16 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Let's come back to it.

17 MR. EISNER: Okay. Before we take a break,

18 I've been holding a question since we began this

19 discussion because I think it related to the last

20 issue. Could we - - side conversations, if you're

21 going to pay the extra cost for the court reporter for

22 recording your side conversations, just to warn you,
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1 you're on probation now.

2 Okay, Massoud Neshan, if I've done his name

3 justice, asked how could we -- and I think this was the

4 prior issue, how could we test two models when we

5 design and manufacturer only one custom piece of CRE?

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: They only make one model,

7 period?

8 MR. SHEBIK: Yeah.

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: With everything? It doesn't

10 say that. I don't need to test --

11 MR. SHEBIK: That's the question, though.

12 That's what he's asking.

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, but I'm not testing two

14 units of a given model, I'm testing two things that

15 he's offering, period. So he's not -- I mean

16 regardless of whether he's making one custom built unit

17 for a given person, that doesn't matter.

18 I imagine for customer B he could also be

19 making one custom unit. And if I happen to test both

20 of them and they're both off, he gets two.

21 MR. AMRANE: No, but let's say he doesn't

22 want to make a -- he doesn't want to develop an AEDM.
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Then it doesn't matter. This

2 is --

3 MR. AMRANE: No, but how many does he have to

4 test? He's making just one, so he's not --

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: We haven't gotten there yet.

6 That's in the low --

7 MR. EISNER: But that's another discussion.

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: We haven't gotten there yet.

9 MR. AMRANE: That's his question.

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: We haven't gotten there yet.

11 MR. AMRANE: that's his question.

12 MR. EISNER: Massoud, does that answer your

13 question? Are you online?

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right now it's two, the

15 answer is two. A minimum of two. But that's why one

16 of the negotiating things was low build to a custom

17 frame.

18 MR. EISNER: Okay.

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: One-offs. What do we do with

20 them? How do we deal with them?

21 MR. EISNER: You guys have been good. I'm

22 going to give you a 15-minute break.
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1 MR. AMRANE: Thank you.

2 MR. EISNER: Come back in 15 minutes.

3 (Brief recess.)

4 MR. EISNER: Laura, do you want to say

5 anything introductory?

6 MS. BARHYDT: Oh boy.

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think you want me to go

8 here.

9 MS. BARHYDT: Well, so actually what I would

10 like to do is go through the slides that Ashley

11 prepared. It raises a lot of different issues, but I

12 think my preference would be to not go through line-by13 line.

14 Because I'd like to -- I'd really like to sit

15 and have a conversation and hear your different

16 thoughts on how you would like to see groupings made.

17 So go through these slides and think about some of the

18 issues that they raise and how you might want to deal

19 with those issues, and then let's talk about it, not

20 going slide-by- slide.

21 MR. EISNER: And let's keep an open focus on

22 this. Don't think of the DOE rule, think of how DOE
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1 can satisfy its requirements, its obligations, to be

2 able to write and enforce rules. So don't say well, we

3 can't live with this, we can't live with that; say what

4 you think they could do that will work for you and will

5 work for them.

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay, so I'm going to go

7 through some of the slides and at least touch on some

8 high points to start the discussion. So the whole

9 premise behind this is that we've gotten to this point

10 by coming up with valid methods of rating. So at this

11 point you have the tools you need to rate your

12 equipment.

13 So it becomes, how should manufacturers group

14 individual models for the purposes of ratings? From

15 DOE's perspective, I think individual models may be

16 grouped, however they must share the same certified

17 rating, and then obviously some potential outcomes of

18 testing are on the slide.

19 So some options here, right, for product

20 grouping. You can certify each individual model. It

21 means every single model in the DOE's database is a

22 certified model. Provides consumer with the
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1 information on every single specific model. You can

2 certify as a basic model.

3 And don't get caught up in the nomenclature

4 here, we're just trying to explain what exists today

5 and maybe some of the differences.

6 It consists of an aggregation of individual

7 models sharing certain attributes, such as capacity,

8 efficiency rating, utility. We realize this is our

9 current definition and obviously the word in red is

10 essentially identical would be the issue.

11 And then there's a thing of, a concept of

12 basic model group and it consists of an aggregation of

13 basic models that have common design principles. These

14 do not need to have a common efficiency, or capacity as

15 we understand it, the efficiency of all models in the

16 group can be derived from testing of a few.

17 So these are some concepts that are kind of

18 in the marketplace today. This is kind of how we did a

19 schematic to help us understand things a little bit.

20 So you have a given production model which is at the

21 individual model stage.

22 You have two routes at that point. You can
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1 estimate its performance through an AEDM, or you can

2 test it. Obviously you're testing -- you have to test

3 a subset to validate the AEDM, but assuming we've

4 gotten to that pathway, from there you can either go

5 directly to certifying the basic model, or you can

6 group common engineering platforms with multiple

7 efficiencies and capacities. You specify common

8 efficiency capacities as a basic model group, and then

9 you would certify them accordingly with a given rating.

10 MR. DOPPEL: Ashley, a point of

11 clarification. It seems that on the right-hand side

12 that there is allowing, where it says BMGs in the small

13 rectangle, that that's allowing multiple efficiencies.

14 And yet when you drop down, it's disallowing multiple

15 efficiencies.

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Go to the lowest, right. Or

17 you could. The idea here -- I mean that is a

18 distinction right, between the two, is that, you know.

19 I guess it goes back to what is the purpose of a

20 rating, and what is the purpose of developing a rating?

21 And if you assume that that the purpose of

22 developing a rating is that for a given set of models,
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1 or a given model, you want the consumer, you want the

2 Department, you want to be able to make a claim about

3 that model's performance.

4 That is done through a unique rating, not a

5 range of ratings, not a -- so to us, I guess the

6 question becomes how do you span multiple efficiencies

7 and then get to the goal of coming up with, you know,

8 for the purposes of selecting a rating for determining

9 what that group represents. How do you do it today?

10 MR. RIVEST: This is Michael Rivest. So when

11 we tried to map out all these different terms are being

12 thrown out there and try to understand what's really

13 needed, and what's needed for what reason. So DOE

14 definitely has a need to have a database where there's

15 a one-to-one correspondence between a product to the

16 market, its model number, and the model number in the

17 database.

18 And I understand that sometimes there are

19 stars that represent the fact that those stars can be

20 any of a series of letters or numbers, but that still

21 allows a one-to-one correspondence between the number

22 in the certified database to what the product offering.
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1 So that becomes an individual model certification.

2 Sometimes there might be a grouping, we see

3 it mostly through brands, when a manufacturer may

4 operate under multiple brands, and for that reason

5 we'll have multiple model numbers. So going from a

6 certified individual model to a certified basic model

7 is typically more, has more to do with the brands.

8 Going, however, from a certified model to

9 this whole area we've been talking about of AEDMs, it

10 struck us that the basic model grouping concept, with

11 the ability to rate multiple products using common

12 engineering, if you will, principles, there was a lot

13 of, a big relationship between the AEDM and the basic

14 model group.

15 So having mapped this out, first of all, does

16 this seem to correspond to your understanding of these

17 terms and how they're being applied? And I guess I

18 don't -- you know, we're trying to figure what needs to

19 change, or what is misunderstood, or what is -- what's

20 the problem basically.

21 We think the sampling that's being done under

22 the verification program for AHRI is under basic model
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1 groupings, the 30 percent per year. Is that the same

2 thing as what we've been talking about? Each AEDM is a

3 basic model group or would an AEDM go across multiple

4 basic model groups?

5 So we need to have some conversation about

6 that. But certainly the concept of grouping is

7 permissible, in terms of rating, with the AEDM.

8 MR. HALLEY: I have a question. Geoff

9 Halley. With the boiler industry, traditionally,

10 certainly in the fire tube industry, they're designed

11 to a certain number of square feet of heating surface

12 per boiler horsepower. That's one parameter they use,

13 simple number, right?

14 Then they also have another thing they look

15 at for furnace heat release or combustion chamber heat

16 release. And over a multitude of years and experience,

17 they know that if you go above a certain number, you're

18 probably going to get unstable combustion.

19 In other words, it's going to pulsate. It's

20 going to frighten the heck out of people. So we want

21 to keep below that number. With the advent of LO-NOx

22 burners you may want to go to a slightly lower number
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1 than the one that would keep you out of combustion

2 pulsations.

3 When you use that and you can run simulations

4 on something like a spreadsheet, Excel spreadsheet, you

5 can come up with a line of boilers, all of which are

6 going to be roughly the same efficiency, within a very

7 close tolerance.

8 Now there may be -- the tendency has been

9 for, over a line of say 30 boilers, from say 50

10 horsepower to 750 horsepower, you would pick certain

11 cross sections where the cross section is identical

12 over probably three or four models.

13 So over that 30 boiler model number product

14 line, you've got say seven cross sections, six or seven

15 cross sections, and they're just stretched the length

16 of the boiler to get the increased heating surface.

17 When you do that and your efficiency, which I

18 presume is your rating, the efficiency; right? The

19 efficiency comes out very close. Is it one, one basic

20 model or is it six or seven basic models, or is it 30

21 basic models?

22 MR. RIVEST: That's the subject for today.
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, that's the way we

2 have that right now. If the efficiency is --

3 MR. RIVEST: It is not one basic -- I mean in

4 this construct, you've described a basic model group.

5 MR. HALLEY: Okay.

6 MR. RIVEST: Okay?

7 MR. HALLEY: Yeah.

8 MR. RIVEST: And then you -- to certify a

9 basic model would be your 10 horsepower fire tube with

10 a certain cross section.

11 MR. HALLEY: So there would be seven basic

12 models in the 30?

13 MR. RIVEST: You would have seven -- I mean

14 the way I understand what you described, there is seven

15 basic model groups.

16 MR. HALLEY: Okay. Okay.

17 MR. RIVEST: Now the sampling for

18 verification testing would be based at that level of

19 aggregation, say 30 percent of that, right?

20 MR. HALLEY: Right.

21 MR. RIVEST: No one's ever going to say 30

22 percent individual models or basic models. You know,
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1 the percentages would change down to three percent, or

2 two percent. But -- and the reason I'm lumping them as

3 basic model groups is because, the way you described

4 it, you have an AEDM that allows you to rate a whole

5 family of models, stretching it, using math.

6 MR. HALLEY: Right.

7 MR. RIVEST: But that math may not apply when

8 you start changing a cross section.

9 MR. HALLEY: Right.

10 MR. RIVEST: Now theoretically you could

11 create a spreadsheet that's just more complicated.

12 MR. HALLEY: Yeah. The principle difference

13 actually in efficiency is with the smaller models you

14 get a higher radiant loss from the jacket of the

15 boiler, because with the larger units, it can be a

16 quarter of one percent or it may be a couple of

17 percent, but they're smaller and that's really the

18 difference.

19 MR. AMRANE: I think we start with the

20 current definition. The current definition DOE has

21 means that you cannot group products with different

22 efficiencies.
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1 MS. BARHYDT: So I actually --

2 MR. RIVEST: For what purposes?

3 MS. BARHYDT: Hold, hold, hold --

4 MR. AMRANE I don't know.

5 MR. RIVEST: But what I'm saying for what

6 purposes? What are you saying are not allowed to

7 group? You know, where are you talking?

8 MR. AMRANE: I'm looking at the definition

9 that DOE has, that you had on the slide.

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, but for what? That's

11 what he's asking. For the purposes of rating, for

12 certifying?

13 MR. AMRANE: Yes.

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: For making representations?

15 MR. AMRANE: For certification.

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Or for coming up for testing?

17 Because there's two very different things.

18 MR. AMRANE: Well, first of all to certify to

19 DOE, to listings in your database, things like that.

20 And the reason why we came up with the basic model

21 group in the first place, a long time ago, was to

22 reduce the amount of testing, because certain products
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1 -- I mean if you had to group -- if you had to have all

2 the models as a basic model, as defined by DOE, that

3 the number of tests would be impossible to manage.

4 Now we have the AEDM today, which was not

5 there before, which resolves a lot of those issues, but

6 still there are products, let's say for example ice

7 makers, for which there is no AEDM today.

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's not part of that. So

9 why are you going to bring it into it.

10 MR. AMRANE: I know. But we need to keep

11 that in mind because it's going to be an issue --

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's not part of the

13 negotiations though. It's not --

14 MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel from Mitsubishi. An

15 important part of what Karim and I mentioned was that

16 when you have more models included, that also increases

17 the risk. Because if you have a failure, then

18 everything that's in that group is, you know has the,

19 whatever the penalty action is taken against that. If

20 the rating is reduced, then the rating's reduced on all

21 of them, not just that one that's been tested.

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: But you're talking about the
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1 rating, a rating, a singular rating. So what is in

2 your database that --

3 MR. DOPPEL: No.

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: You are.

5 MR. DOPPEL: No, not in -- not what we're

6 talking about is not a single rating. What we're --

7 like if you again --

8 MR. RIVEST: But you just said everything

9 fits.

10 MR. DOPPEL: The easiest example is a

11 three ton condenser matched with 10 different

12 combinations of coils, furnaces, air handlers, they all

13 have different ratings, but that's treated as one model

14 group. And if one of those -- and then there's an arm

15 that helps to do --

16 MR. RIVEST: Is that a certified rating or

17 performance?

18 MR. DOPPEL: Each one of those would have a

19 certified rating, but if it's because it's a basic

20 model group for testing, if any one of those

21 combinations is selected and fails --

22 MR. RIVEST: Are you speaking about
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1 residential or commercial?

2 MR. DOPPEL: It applies, it applies. It's

3 just an easy concept.

4 MR. WHITWELL: It could be three phase, three

5 phase systems aren't --

6 MR. DOPPEL: Yeah.

7 MR. RIVEST: Well we would take -- we spend

8 some time in your database and that's --

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: A lot of time.

10 MR. RIVEST: And that's not a lot of --

11 that's not what we're seeing. What we're seeing, from

12 what we can tell, what you're reporting would fit DOE's

13 requirements for a basic model. So that's why we're

14 having trouble understanding the problem because we're

15 not seeing a problem --

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right; you have a given set

17 of model numbers, whether it be representative of a

18 system or a package unit, whatever it is. And you have

19 a singular number there for representation. You don't

20 have a range.

21 You don't have a range of capacities, you

22 have a singular set of values, and that's what's in --
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1 you all may do it slightly differently, you know in

2 terms of how you get to that singular number, but from

3 what we were able to tell by a lot of digging and a lot

4 of analyzing, was that everyone has a singular set of

5 numbers.

6 Some have 300, some have 1,000, but at the

7 end of the day you come out with a singular set of

8 performance characteristics and you say this is my set

9 of performance characteristics for my, what do you call

10 that, is that your basic model group or do you call

11 that -- what is that?

12 MR. ARMANE: It's a model.

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: So okay, so for that model,

14 you have a singular set of characteristics. That is

15 the exact same thing we call basic model. There is no

16 difference.

17 MR. AMRANE: But the difference is that we

18 certify the basic refrigeration cycle. We don't

19 certify the equipment with all the, with all the

20 components that can be added, all the fans that can be

21 added. So we don't do all that.

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: So that's a different --
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1 MR. AMRANE: That's a very different problem.

2 MR. EISNER: If I can stop everyone. I think

3 the purpose of this was to talk about what the existing

4 situation is, give you information and then talk about

5 what the rule ought to say.

6 Not what it says now, not how we amend the

7 rule, but how we create a new rule, this could be the

8 existing rule, but we create a new rule that both sides

9 can live with, or all sides can live with, because I

10 think there are multiple sides represented around the

11 table.

12 I don't think we're here now to argue what's

13 wrong with the current rule. We're here to talk about

14 the briefing, make sure we all understand it, and then

15 to say all right, what should be in a good rule?

16 How should we define -- whatever terms we

17 want to use. We don't have to use basic model group.

18 We don't have to use model group. Whatever you guys

19 who are all around the table think is the best way to

20 solve the problem.

21 MR. RIVEST: Okay just, right now, say

22 there's a seven-and-a-half ton rooftop. It has a model
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1 number and it has a number of stars, okay, and there's

2 a singular rating. So our understanding of those stars

3 is that those are variables.

4 They could represent different indoor units.

5 They could represent different configurations of

6 accessories, and that is where you're saying that

7 that's your grouping.

8 The seven-an-a-half ton, this many SEER is --

9 or EERs, what you're holding constant for that group.

10 MS. HOOTMAN: Is it practical?

11 MR. RIVEST: All right. So we understand

12 that. Where it's not clear, and we're just going to

13 talk about it, is -- we have a slide.

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Do you want this one?

15 MS. HOOTMAN: So take -- this is Jill from

16 Trane so I want to take that example. I have a YC*090.

17 That's a gas electric. The asterisk means down flow or

18 horizontal, 090, seven-and-a-half ton, just like you

19 were describing.

20 Okay, I'm going to say that for my down flow

21 and my horizontal, it is all the same rating. But,

22 that -- and I've chosen that, for whatever reason I
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1 chose that.

2 MR. RIVEST: You all do it differently, by

3 the way.

4 MS. HOOTMAN: Right, right. And I've chosen

5 that. And I've chosen that -- I'm going to tell you a

6 little bit of why we've chosen it that way. We've

7 chosen it that way because of the basic model grouping,

8 we're all looking at how much testing burden we have.

9 Because that testing burden, in dollars, is

10 what we have to do in AHRI. It's significant, multi11 millions in my case.

12 MR. RIVEST: Just to clarify, when you talk

13 about testing, are you talking about the burden of

14 verification testing of this 30 percent?

15 MS. HOOTMAN: The certification testing that

16 I do through AHRI every year.

17 MR. RIVEST: Okay, but if that 30 percent

18 requirement wasn't there, if it just wasn't there,

19 right, because you chose to define it at the basic

20 model group.

21 MS. HOOTMAN: Well yeah, let me just finish.

22 So we all do this within ourselves. We decide where do
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1 we want to take the marketing benefit of making

2 distinct efficiency ratings versus how much will that

3 increase our basic model groups and therefore increase

4 our testing, and so we're always looking at those two

5 things.

6 How are you going to logically group them,

7 along the refrigeration system lines, versus where you

8 want to take marketing benefit? That model grouping,

9 and I would say most cases, doesn't answer the

10 intrinsically inherent whatever language that is.

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's much different, right.

12 But the idea here would be that you do place a singular

13 rating around a set of models right now, for the

14 purposes of making representations; right? And

15 fundamentally the Department's concept with

16 certification is just about that. How should you make

17 representation -- how should representations be made?

18 And they have to be made with a singular set of

19 characteristics.

20 Now, how many units need to be tested, we've

21 gotten through. Now what happens post in terms of if

22 DOE had a verification program or were to recognize an
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1 industry program, the minimum or maximum units that

2 would be pulled for verification is a different issue.

3 But for the purposes of actually making representations

4 and coming up with, this is what I'm claiming is my

5 rating, for which you can then base a verification

6 program on, or a subsequent testing on, there has to be

7 some way to say okay, this is how I want to group my

8 models.

9 You know, language aside, we can change

10 language of the existing regs. We shouldn't be caught

11 up on that. But the idea that, you know, it's a range

12 of efficiencies, that's just not how it seems to us

13 that it's implemented in your directory. There is a

14 singular set of product characteristics associated with

15 a given model.

16 MS. HOOTMAN: It would be a range of

17 efficiencies if you were to pick some of the asterisks,

18 those stars, and pick some of the items in there, it

19 would probably be a range of efficiencies.

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right, but you go --

21 MS. HOOTMAN: So because those things may, in

22 fact, change the efficiency.
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1 MR. RIVEST: So, I think what you're doing,

2 and what DOE wants, is in perfect accord.

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's the same.

4 MR. RIVEST: Where sometimes I'm hearing

5 diverging voices and reading divergent things in the

6 comments, is there seem to be some of those asterisks

7 that end up actual products being built to different

8 statics, that if you were to test those, they would be

9 below the certified value. And it's not clear. And I

10 could see how it would be difficult to put that in

11 writing.

12 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes.

13 MR. RIVEST: But you know, what's being said

14 here is that the certified value is the lowest common

15 denominator and that everything else is going to be

16 higher. So if you were to just randomly pick anything

17 for substituting those asterisks by letters and

18 numbers, they would all meet. That's what I'm hearing

19 but that's not always what I'm hearing.

20 MR. HURST: John Hurst from Lennox. We

21 talked about this at lunch. An example might be miles

22 per gallon on an automobile; okay? So maybe a weak
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1 analogy, but if you put a boat behind an automobile,

2 the gas mileage would go down.

3 MR. EISNER: Wait. She's not going to be

4 able to get this. Okay, I'm sorry, go ahead.

5 MR. HURST: If you put a boat behind a

6 vehicle, the gas mileage is going to go down, or if you

7 drive in mountainous terrain, so it depends on the

8 option that the customer selects and the application.

9 So I think generally speaking we agree, but the devil's

10 in the details, you say what about this coding and what

11 about this option.

12 MR. RIVEST: I think the devil is in the

13 details once you get down there because we agree with

14 everybody. And we kind of laid out four types of design

15 options that you might, you call accessories. Some of

16 those accessories inherently bring more utility to the

17 product.

18 MR. HURST: Right.

19 MR. RIVEST: But it may not be captured in

20 the test procedure. So is that test procedure waiver

21 issue? You know we've heard of things like economizers

22 being installed and they're creating static pressure
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1 issues maybe.

2 MR. HURST: Right, sure.

3 MR. RIVEST: So in that case it seems

4 legitimate to not penalize someone who has an

5 economizer put on their system.

6 MS. HOOTMAN: So, okay. So to further what I

7 was saying, so I had this gas electric that's seven8 and- a-half ton. It's a down flow or horizontal. That

9 economizer, okay, if the Department checked that and

10 wanted the economizer and I sent you the economizer,

11 the economizer would not be energized at the 80, 67, 95

12 point, but it creates static. I'm not portraying

13 something in my ratings for that necessarily.

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct. Right.

15 MS. HOOTMAN: So the ratings will now be

16 lower.

17 MR. RIVEST: So I think we should just face

18 that head on and come up with a fix.

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: That is the real issue. That

20 is the difference, right. I mean --

21 MR. RIVEST: So now there are categories we

22 see where there's added utility that's not being
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1 captured by the test procedure. There are certain

2 circumstances where there might be a feature there that

3 it's questionable how -- certainly it may not have an

4 added energy benefit, it may have an added utility to

5 the client. So I've read about thicker filters.

6 MR. FLY: Let me bring one, just for an

7 example. Let's say we're building a unit, we have a

8 customer that wants to build an operating suite in a

9 hospital. Operating suites in hospitals, for anybody

10 that's in the business, know that there are all kinds

11 of junk onto those -- extra filters, external, they run

12 at very high static pressure.

13 My five ton unit that's feeding this small

14 operating suite, which is going to be tested at two15 tenths of an inch, under AHRI conditions, with a three

16 horsepower motor, may all of a sudden have a 20

17 horsepower motor to overcome all the extra stuff that

18 goes in a hospital operating suite.

19 MR. RIVEST: Right.

20 MR. FLY: If I take that 20 horsepower motor

21 and I run it at two-tenths of an inch per static, I'm

22 going to be so far off the motor efficiency curve it's
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1 going to be a terrible unit.

2 MR. RIVEST: Now we understand that. So --

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, we use that as our

4 example when we were talking about that.

5 MR. RIVEST: So let's come up with a fix to

6 that because again --

7 MR. FLY: Today, I don't list that with a 20

8 horsepower motor as my basic model.

9 MR. RIVEST: And so it's not --

10 MR. FLY: But I sell that in that

11 application.

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Exactly.

13 MS. HOOTMAN: And so, yeah, when I was

14 finishing my seven-and-a-half ton description and the

15 economizer, when AHRI comes and gets my model, I don't

16 provide them a unit with an economizer.

17 MR. RIVEST: We get it. So the real thing

18 we'd be trying to avoid is that because it'll never get

19 selected, it doesn't give a loophole for, not someone

20 in this room but someone else, to put a really, really

21 terrible 20 horsepower motor --

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: In everything.
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1 MR. RIVEST: So how do we --

2 MR. FLY: But if you want to rate that at

3 four- and-a-half inches of external static, then it's

4 no longer an 11 EER unit anymore. So the numbers have

5 to change. So we have to come out and say okay, an

6 eight's okay for that application.

7 MR. RIVEST: Well, that's how we --

8 MR. FLY: And then we've got all this whole

9 map of well, you know, what about this static? What

10 about this static? It's an infinite number of

11 conditions. So if we're just trying to compare unit to

12 unit, that's a reason I think AHRI has evolved into

13 let's just look at the refrigeration system because the

14 fan system is so much different.

15 MS. HOOTMAN: And if we step back and talk

16 about our -- yeah. And I think if we step back and

17 talk about what does the customer do, the customer

18 never looks at that and says, this is going to be my in

19 building, my application grading.

20 They're using that more as a miles per gallon

21 as a comparison to okay, I'm going to get something

22 around this, or I'm going to get something that's
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1 higher. They're using that around those kind of

2 parameters, and then they're going to add all the stuff

3 that is unique to their building.

4 MR. KLEISS: So you're saying that's an

5 apples- to-apples comparison against competitors.

6 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. Yes, it's an apples-to7 apples against competitors, but it's not necessarily

8 how that's going to work in that building because all

9 of them are going to work completely different, each

10 application is different. And they're all going to

11 select -- back in the day, 30 years ago, none of this

12 stuff was on our equipment. They got a basic unit.

13 They have evolved to the point that they want us to put

14 all this stuff on it, and they know, a consulting

15 engineer knows when he puts that building together,

16 that that isn't what, at AHRI I'm not ever going to see

17 that point.

18 I'm going to map my characteristics for it

19 and there's energy modeling tools for that building

20 with those specific things on that they could

21 eventually figure out what the energy model is for that

22 building in that application, how it's going to do
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1 across that map. But it's not that one little point,

2 EER at that particular set of finite conditions.

3 MR. STARR: I would say that's part of the

4 problem in industry right now. If you're reading the

5 lead things, they talk about how buildings don't

6 perform and how energy models are problematic. It is

7 exactly that.

8 They're using the ratings right off of the

9 units because there's nothing else and you stick that

10 in there for the power curve of how you model your

11 building over the course of 876 hours and using the

12 SEER ratings and the air rate, EER rates are part of

13 how you model that. And they're sticking in some basic

14 numbers that are coming from the AHRI because there

15 isn't any other data other than that.

16 The other thing I notice is we were talking

17 about miles per gallon and we had the analogy of

18 pulling a boat behind the car. If you think about it,

19 and you buy a car down at the dealership, you would

20 expect that part of the rating, that 25 miles per

21 gallon includes the trunk.

22 Every unit over 20 tons automatically has
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1 economizers because it's required by code. So this is

2 not a boat, it's part of the car. And so the EER

3 ratings, and the ratings are not showing up with those

4 things in there. It allows the apple-to-apple

5 comparison, but what it doesn't tell you is actually

6 how you're using -- how energy's being used in there

7 because as in a car, you definitely get a trunk whether

8 you want one or not; it's not the boat.

9 MR. AMRANE: But your example is not right

10 exactly because the economizer is going to save you a

11 lot of energy. So that's not the right example at all.

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: No, so I mean, I think that's

13 a good segue; right? I mean I see this as multiple

14 buckets; right? I mean, in my opinion there are things

15 that -- like we tried to make a grid up here, and one

16 thing doesn't show up on this grid, but there are

17 things in the DOE test procedure that would result in a

18 higher energy use, and then also when, you know, when

19 added in the field, would result in a higher energy

20 use.

21 And to us those are the issue; you shouldn't

22 be adding things to a base model. Well I don't know,
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1 those are part of the discussion that's at issue.

2 Things that would result in a higher test

3 procedure energy use, like for example an economizer,

4 but would result in a lower field energy use, from a

5 policies perspective, I mean, we could do this two

6 ways.

7 I mean, obviously we want to promote things

8 that are not just test procedure but would result in

9 field energy use savings as well, especially when

10 implemented correctly. So the hope would be that the

11 test procedure accurately accounts for all that,

12 however we all know that the reality is that doesn't

13 always happen.

14 So we've implemented that a number of

15 different ways. One could be through a grouping,

16 explicit grouping allowing certain options to be

17 excluded or part of a base.

18 Another option would be, as a test procedure

19 credit, such that any differential could get around.

20 Another option would be -- you know this is all for

21 discussion, but you can see how we see this as four

22 different -- we can see this like these are like four
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1 quadrants.

2 And what this doesn't pick up is something

3 that results in a higher test procedure use than the

4 base unit, as well as a higher field energy use, but

5 also provides a distinct utility, and is necessary for

6 marketing and/or selling purposes.

7 And that's where the deviation -- you know

8 this is where the discussion is though. These are your

9 quadrants that we're talking about. So we still need a

10 distinct set of ratings associated with some type of

11 model groupings, but to the extent we need to discuss

12 something that does result in a slightly higher test

13 procedure energy use or rating, but you know in the

14 field, it definitely reduces consumption. That's on

15 the table for discussion.

16 MR. STARR: Oh, so you want a different

17 appliance; like economizers work great in the west, but

18 in the south you probably use them very much because

19 there's not that many hours a year. So I guess it's

20 one of those things you're trying to balance across the

21 whole nation to figure out the energy savings for the -

22 -
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah.

2 MR. STARR: Okay.

3 MR. WHITWELL: This is Bob Whitwell from

4 Carrier. I think this is great. We need to be looking

5 at the EER energy recovery and the economizers and

6 that. But I mean the other point that I would make is

7 that even the heat exchanger coatings, if you look over

8 the life of the product, that product with those

9 coatings in a SEACOs application is going to give a lot

10 better performance than one that doesn't have it and

11 the fins are all gone. So you know it's not -- I don't

12 think there's anything that's black and white, right?

13 MS. MEYERS: Right. And also --

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: But at some point, we have to

15 draw lines; right?

16 MR. WHITWELL: I understand.

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, there have to be some

18 type of thresholds, and that's what we're trying to do.

19 I mean the problem we had when we tried to analyze the

20 directory was that all of you do it slightly

21 differently. And while that's great, it's really hard

22 to build a regulatory program around that.
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1 We want to provide you flexibility and we

2 want to incentivize not only better test procedure

3 ratings but better field use; right? Savings in the

4 field as well, and not restrict you from that

5 perspective and allow you to be innovative.

6 But at the same time, put some level playing

7 field where model A really is a comparison to model B.

8 So that's where we are.

9 MS. MEYERS: Well, this is Karen. I'm afraid

10 you might get less comparison because, I mean with

11 commercial units, there's typically, I mean there's

12 tons of different accessories. It's not just one thing

13 that may be added; it could be 30.

14 And so some of them may provide higher field

15 energy use, some of them may provide lower energy use,

16 and so how do you come out at the end? And so, and

17 because we all do it, you're actually going to get much

18 less comparison because you're going to be looking at a

19 Trane product versus a Rheem product that may have 29

20 options, mine may only have 28 options, and I think

21 it's going to be much less comparison versus just

22 looking at that basic refrigeration system.
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1 MR. EISNER: Can you start, Karen, with a

2 basic model and then talk about specific add-ons or

3 subtractions, and what they have, what effect they will

4 have on the overall economy?

5 Again, using the car analogy, they do look at

6 the addition of certain equipment that's going to add

7 weight to the car. They look at things like air

8 conditioners.

9 MS. MEYERS: Well I mean are we going to talk

10 about climate zones? Because if I'm driving in a 20

11 mile per hour wind versus a 50 mile per hour wind, if

12 I'm pulling a boat that's loaded down -- I mean that's

13 what you get into. I'm really not trying to be

14 facetious because --

15 MR. RIVEST: We need to keep this simple, not

16 complicated.

17 MS. MEYERS: Well that's what I think we're

18 trying to do but that's -- when you get into commercial

19 equipment --

20 MR. RIVEST: That's okay. We deal with

21 complicated things all day, every day.

22 MS. MEYERS: So that's why I'm saying, I
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1 don't know how you can --

2 MR. RIVEST: This is not the most complicated

3 product in the world. So I agree; if we started with

4 the basic model, and you have the experience to know

5 which are those things that really hurt you when you

6 put it on a test, in the test chamber.

7 And let's discuss it. How we either rewrite

8 -- change the sampling plan for verification, rewrite a

9 test procedure, suggest that in a next rulemaking we

10 have a separate product class for that product and the

11 standard be set lower. I mean there are options here.

12 MR. AMRANE: Could one option be use what we

13 use today?

14 MR. RIVEST: No, because we don't know

15 because you're not doing it consistently.

16 MR. EISNER: And that raises another one.

17 MR. RIVEST: It's not required. We spend

18 hours in that database.

19 MR. AMRANE: I believe --

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, you all admitted it

21 just a while ago that it's not consistent. You're not

22 doing --
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1 MS. MEYERS: It's consistent. Our model

2 number schemes are different, but it's consistent.

3 MR. WHITWELL: It's based on the AHRI

4 definition of the basic model.

5 MR. RIVEST: Well, let's just say maybe we

6 just need to get more transparency and understanding

7 about how different it is when all those options are

8 added from the rated value.

9 MR. EISNER: If you started off with the same

10 basic -- with a basic model, and the confusion is over

11 model numbers, could you agree to consistent model

12 numbers and then you could have a list of additional

13 equipment that you offer that can also be compared?

14 A car, this one comes with air conditioning,

15 this one doesn't, here's what it would do to fuel

16 economy. This one can tow a vehicle up to 5,000

17 pounds. If you use it to tow 5,000 pounds, here are the

18 effects it would have on your efficiency.

19 Could you agree to some consistency in the

20 way you model, use model numbers so that they can look

21 at it across the database for the entire industry?

22 MR. WHITWELL: Changing model numbers is a
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1 very difficult thing because it means all our systems -

2 -

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, I don't think it's a

4 model number anyways. We don't have an issue; you do

5 your model numbers the way you want.

6 MR. EISNER: Right. So are we starting out

7 with the idea that you could describe your equipment,

8 regardless of the model numbers, in a way that was

9 consistent across the industry?

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.

11 MR. EISNER: So can we then build on that

12 where you then add in your extra equipment, either with

13 definitive numbers like an air conditioning unit in a

14 car is going to decrease your efficiency if it is used

15 50 percent of the time you drive your vehicle, by this

16 amount of fuel economy? Could you agree to those kinds

17 of concepts for the add-ons or the subtractions?

18 MR. AMRANE: I think it's going to be very

19 complicated because of the combinations of those items.

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: You might --

21 MR. EISNER: But you can describe those in

22 qualitative terms. Again, maybe we should go back to
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1 the purpose of this. Is this to ensure that you're in

2 compliance with the law or is it to ensure that you're

3 giving out sufficient information to the consumer so

4 they know what they're getting compared to what your

5 competitor offers?

6 MR. SACHS: That's where I'd like to

7 interject, if I could, because I think that's the key

8 point that we've been muddling. That DOE has

9 regulatory responsibility for ensuring that everything

10 sold in commerce meets the efficiency standard under

11 the rating conditions.

12 The manufacturers and their customers have an

13 additional interest in being able to compare products

14 that are beyond that level. AHRI is working on other

15 ways to do that with performance maps and things like

16 that.

17 The question I just want to toss out is what

18 happens if we, for commercial equipment only, I'm not

19 talking about residential, if we restrict the

20 conversation to what's required to certify compliance

21 with maximum consumption or minimum efficiency

22 standards?
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1 Just get the DOE out of the question of

2 comparability and apples versus apples for above

3 compliant levels.

4 MR. EISNER: What do people feel about that

5 approach?

6 MS. HOOTMAN: Harvey, say that again.

7 MR. SACHS: Okay.

8 MS. HOOTMAN: The maximum --

9 MR. SACHS: The DOE has statutory

10 responsibility for assuring that those in the commerce

11 --

12 MS. HOOTMAN: Maximum consumption.

13 MR. SACHS: -- has minimal efficiency or

14 maximal fuel consumption under the rated conditions.

15 DOE has assumed an implicit responsibility of assuring

16 the credibility of ratings that are better than that,

17 but I don't think that's -- and that's almost an FTC

18 issue for consumer products.

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: We were talking commercial

20 here.

21 MR. SACHS: And we're talking commercial.

22 MR. EISNER: And do rated conditions include
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1 things like the climate zone in which it's used?

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: No, they're normalized.

3 MR. FLY: No, they're normalized. And they

4 include a normalized static, so we would test that damn

5 hospital operating unit setting and simply have to make

6 an accommodation that says, in application this

7 refrigeration cycle four operating theater application

8 is going to be sold with a different motor and it's

9 going to be derated.

10 But thinking about it, it seems to me,

11 listening to everyone, that since they are -- AHRI is

12 going down a path of providing additional information

13 to support engineering models, if the ASHRAE members

14 can rise to that level, which we're trying, this might

15 be a path that simplifies the compliance issue and

16 opens the market up for people to do better methods of

17 doing the apples-to- apples for beyond code equipment.

18 MR. RIVEST: I think we're years away from

19 getting there.

20 MR. SACHS: Oh, we are.

21 MR. RIVEST: That's the problem. We're not

22 there yet.
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1 MR. SACHS: We're not there yet and I mean

2 all the --

3 MR. AMRANE: In the case of commercial

4 product, we're talking about sophisticated consumers.

5 We're not talking about individuals who don't know what

6 they are buying. We're talking about engineering firms

7 who are specifying the equipment, and they know what

8 they're buying. Okay, they go to the manufacturers and

9 they get the actual rating of the product and they are

10 fine.

11 MR. SACHS: Karim, I think that's appropriate

12 for some national accounts, and I think about the strip

13 mall, too. But I'm trying to advance this argument

14 focusing on the compliance issue rather than the

15 comparison issue.

16 MS. HOOTMAN: I would say that the owner, the

17 national account, the owner is very sophisticated.

18 Also that strip mall is built by a sophisticated real

19 estate person, real estate trusts, you know those kind

20 of things. It's nutty. Now I agree that the person

21 that comes in and rents it isn't always that

22 sophisticated in understanding what has been already
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1 selected for them when they built that strip mall.

2 But that's been selected for them. That was

3 probably under a consulting engineer, likely, and it

4 had to go through plan check and all of those kind of

5 things. So I mean, you know, there was some selection.

6 MR. EISNER: We're in final agreement.

7 MS. HOOTMAN: Okay.

8 MR. EISNER: Can I give a chance for Marshall

9 Hunt, who is on the phone, to talk? Marshall?

10 MR. HUNT: Hi, this is Marshall Hunt with

11 (inaudible) company. Can you hear me?

12 MR. EISNER: Can you speak a little louder?

13 MR. HUNT: Yes.

14 MR. EISNER: Go ahead.

15 MR. HUNT: Can you hear me now?

16 MR. EISNER: Yes.

17 MR. HUNT: Okay. I'm very much in support of

18 what Harvey just said because what we really need is to

19 be able to do simulations on an 87-607 using a climate

20 specific case, both for our energy efficiency standards

21 and for our utility program justification as a rebate.

22 We've spent millions of dollars in upstream rebates to
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1 distributors for high efficiency RTUs and what, the

2 system we have now is working just fine.

3 The big elephant in the room of 343/360

4 standard is outdoor air and almost all the RTUs I'm

5 familiar with are using an outdoor air panel, a cracked

6 open panel, so that they have adequate ventilation to

7 meet ASHRAE.

8 And the standard does not force you to do

9 that test, or even really support the testing, and the

10 amount of outdoor fresh air varies to great degrees up

11 and down depending on your building application.

12 So that if we keep the outdoor air damper

13 buttoned down, you test at the EER position, and we

14 eventually will have the IEER, that's fine. And then

15 we will work together with AHRI and ASHRAE to get our

16 performance map. So I'm in support of what Harvey was

17 saying. It sounds like if he had final agreement with

18 others. Thank you.

19 MR. EISNER: Should we start putting some

20 things on a blank slide? Is it time to start thinking

21 about some of the things that ought to form a basis for

22 this issue, for a decision on this issue?
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1 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. I was

2 wondering, has there been industry research sponsored

3 by anyone where we can identify an approximate offset

4 for each one of these options to take a more

5 statistical approach to say if there's this option you

6 can expect this change in the performance, if there's

7 this option you can expect this change?

8 MR. EISNER: Anybody know?

9 MS. HOOTMAN: The problem I see with that is

10 you don't always know.

11 MR. STEPHENS: It's not exact, but it's

12 closer than where we are now.

13 MS. HOOTMAN: We have customers come into us

14 every day to ask us to put things on at the factory

15 that I can turn around and say to them, I'll put it on,

16 I don't know what that does to your performance. Okay,

17 they're like yeah, okay. Go ahead, put it on.

18 MR. STEPHENS: Is this something --

19 MS. HOOTMAN: They accept it all the time.

20 So that's that one off thing where I mean, well it may

21 even be beyond one off. I mean, it's, you know.

22 MR. STEPHENS: But is this something that we
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1 could do data diving in the ASHRAE database to come up

2 with a statistical approximation?

3 MR. EISNER: All right, let me ask a question

4 in terms of the legal requirement that DOE has to

5 report the fuel efficiency of the equipment. What do

6 you do when there's an add-on that you have no idea

7 what it does and the manufacturer has no idea what it

8 does? How do you treat that?

9 MS. BARHYDT: When we test a product we're

10 just testing the product and so it performs however it

11 performs.

12 MR. EISNER: With or without the equipment

13 that the company has asked to be added on?

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I think that's the issue

15 really in and of itself; right? It's what options

16 should be discussed such that either DOE does not ever

17 account for them in the differences in the rating, or

18 they are explicitly accounted for and manufacturers

19 know that.

20 The difference here is to use a scheme where

21 there's not a common understanding of those that do

22 versus those that don't gives people different
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1 expectations in terms of how they meet the federal

2 minimum. So if I say, you know, 10 of these options

3 are out, and they can just be subsumed by a base model

4 and asterisk, and the base model, you know without

5 those 10 options, is what has to meet the standard,

6 then that's fine. But what if I say five are in and

7 these five options do count towards meeting the minimum

8 standard and those five would make a minimally

9 compliant unit less efficient.

10 MR. EISNER: Is there a difference between --

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, that is really the

12 discussion here.

13 MR. EISNER: Is there a difference between a

14 manufacturer providing a piece of equipment to a client

15 without the add-on equipment in which it meets all the

16 standards and then the company coming and saying we

17 want you go come back in and add X piece of equipment,

18 we know you don't know what its fuel efficiency is?

19 Is the company -- is the manufacturer

20 responsible for meeting the statutory standard under

21 that circumstance as opposed to selling them the

22 original piece of equipment with the add-on?
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think that's part of the

2 discussion here.

3 MR. EISNER: No, this gets into what the

4 statute requires.

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, the statute just says -

6 -

7 MS. BARHYDT: Manufacturer.

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- I mean, it just says the

9 manufacturer is responsible if they're distributing a

10 product in commerce. It doesn't specify a base model.

11 It doesn't specify every model. It just says --

12 MR. EISNER: So the manufacturer has to know

13 its effect on the efficiency or else they're not in

14 compliance with the statute?

15 MS. BARHYDT: Potentially.

16 MR. SACHS: And in point of fact, I think

17 I'll try to say what no manufacturer will say I'm wrong

18 about or right about. But in point of fact, first of

19 all, all of us sitting in this room would rather see

20 the manufacturers installing and warranting the

21 options, than the disasters we've had with commercial

22 rooftops with third party add-ons. We just haven't
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1 been able to get good quality in the field.

2 MR. EISNER: Third party add-ons, you mean

3 unregulated?

4 MR. SACHS: The local contractor saying sure

5 I'll add a widget, or doing a bad job on controls.

6 We've got hundreds of cases of field studies where

7 performance has fallen short as a result of features

8 added locally. We'd like for the manufacturers to take

9 responsibility and capture some of the value of those

10 features. We'd like to have a certification and

11 compliance system that encourages that rather than

12 discouraging that.

13 It is my own conclusion that the

14 certification scheme applied to commercial equipment is

15 an ill-fitting suit and getting more so by the year and

16 we're trying to figure out the lowest common

17 denominator to make this system work since we can't

18 junk it. And I think that's the really, Neil, what

19 we're talking about here.

20 MR. RIVEST: Can I take a slightly different

21 direction? The people in this room are in business,

22 they're legitimate companies. Have there been
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1 situations in the past where because of the basic model

2 definition, you know leaving some options outside of

3 the verification program, that that's created

4 opportunities for cheating by others?

5 Is there a way of systematically taking

6 advantage of the fact that those aren't verified in

7 that way, and such that it would require inclusion of

8 those things in the program?

9 MS. HOOTMAN: Versus -- I mean, we have the

10 way with an AHRI to contest, you know, or look at --

11 MR. RIVEST: You do. So how does DOE get

12 that?

13 MS. HOOTMAN: Except with the ICP.

14 MR. RIVEST: You understand that this meeting

15 is --

16 MS. HOOTMAN: I know.

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, we can't accept

18 something that we don't what we're accepting yet;

19 right? So at some point, we have to have those

20 regulations, at least in our regulations, for those

21 that aren't members.

22 MS. HOOTMAN: Correct.
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: So if there are complaints

2 that -- we know what's in and what's out, and for

3 people not in an AHRI program, we know -- we treat them

4 the same way, or you know equally and fairly to

5 determine compliance when we get those complaints.

6 MR. RIVEST: Your definition's saying ignore,

7 ignore the, you know, half the system basically, so

8 it's just a condenser and a compressor, and then the

9 coil is what, it's within a certain --

10 MS. HOOTMAN: No. You want to get --

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: You sent me my definition,

12 not your definition.

13 MR. RIVEST: No, your definition just says

14 condenser and compressor, period.

15 MR. THARP: I've sent a revision of the DOE -

16 -

17 MR. DOPPEL: Consensus.

18 MR. THARP: Consensus. Several OEMs and

19 HVAC, commercial HVAC made some attempts at revising

20 the DOE definition.

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay, that's closer.

22 MR. DOPPEL: Seven of the remaining words are
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1 Rusty's original.

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. So Rusty is --

3 MR. THARP: Yeah, the most important seven by

4 the way.

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Rusty's definition, which

6 uses the term basic model, means, all systems of a

7 given type of cover product or class thereof, having

8 the same primary energy source, electric or gas, and

9 which have the same or comparable compressors, same or

10 comparable condensing coils, same or comparable

11 evaporator coils, and same or comparable air moving

12 systems to have a common nominal cooling capacity. A

13 basic model does not include options and features that

14 serve unique building application such as --

15 MR. RIVEST: This is great.

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- economizers, ERVs, et

17 cetera. It's the et cetera that's going to be the

18 issue. And then what now?

19 MR. BAUMAN: It wasn't in your seven?

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: But that's great. I mean, I

21 think that's absolutely a great start. I can type it

22 up. But the idea here would be that we would need to
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1 list those options that are in or out so that everyone

2 around the table, and around the world, knows what's in

3 or what's out. I mean, that's what this was trying to

4 get at, more or less.

5 MR. THARP: And this would be of course just

6 for HVAC and we'd have to do the same thing for

7 commercial furnaces and for CRE; right?

8 MR. RIVEST: Do we have that issue in other

9 products?

10 MR. KLEISS: I would say the definition that

11 was just read though, the basic model differentiates

12 between types of fuel input.

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, their one for HVAC

14 does, yeah.

15 MR. KLEISS: Okay.

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: You can negotiate yours

17 differently.

18 MR. KLEISS: So boilers, water heaters don't

19 have to follow that same definition?

20 MR. RIVEST: No, they're a different product

21 class.

22 MS. HOOTMAN: We're suggesting that this is
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1 just one. This is just one of many in commercial HVAC,

2 we haven't even done commercial furnaces yet.

3 MR. KLEISS: Okay. As long as that's clear,

4 yeah.

5 MR. SACHS: Help me please just with a

6 technical clarification. Was there a reason you left

7 out metering devices? Are you looking to use the

8 lowest common denominator and then differentiate

9 optional ones? It's the one part of the refrigerant

10 cycle that --

11 MR. THARP: I think for commercial systems,

12 most today use TXVs or EVs.

13 MR. WHITWELL: Well, we use different

14 metering devices but it really goes more by efficiency

15 tier, right. Like the lower cost, low efficiency tier

16 might be fixed orifice. And then you move to TXVs, you

17 might go to EXVs.

18 MR. SACHS: Understood, and that's

19 appreciated, Bob. The question is if your definition

20 would allow a basic model to include both a fixed

21 orifice and a TXV version?

22 MS. HOOTMAN: If you wanted to rate them all
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1 at the same level of efficiency.

2 MR. WHITWELL: Right.

3 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes, you would have to make

4 that choice.

5 MR. THARP: It wouldn't be a bad thing

6 perhaps to go ahead and add the expansion device, same

7 or comparable expansion device as another component.

8 MS. HOOTMAN: I would say that most of us

9 would want to take that in energy efficiency advantage,

10 and most of us are going to market that. But you

11 could, if you wanted to, again kind of weigh your risk

12 of you know how many models you have in testing and all

13 that kind of stuff, you could go.

14 MR. THARP: I certainly don't have a dog in

15 that fight, to use a term which we've heard before.

16 But I think we ought to understand whether it's in our

17 --

18 MR. DOPPEL: This is Paul Doppel with

19 Mitsubishi. So this needs some clarification that if

20 this was done when we were looking at the DOE basic

21 model definition and trying to work with that, this

22 really does not encompass some of the discussion that
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1 we had today with grouping. And but certainly if we

2 put model group instead of basic model, it would I

3 think would be the same.

4 MR. RIVEST: Now we're going back.

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, don't go back. We were

6 doing good. We're making progress.

7 MS. HOOTMAN: We use those terms. We're

8 going to use different terms, remember?

9 MR. DOPPEL: Okay.

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, we can go back and do

11 different terms.

12 MS. MEYERS: Yeah, and I'd like to make a

13 comment for the record that everyone is assuming that

14 some of these options that are applied detract from

15 efficiency.

16 MR. SACHS: No.

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: No, we're not.

18 MS. MEYERS: Many of these options increase

19 efficiency and they don't show up in the rating either.

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Which is why there's that

21 last - - I mean that's why the et cetera in your word

22 needs to be articulated into what are the options that
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1 are out of the realm of --

2 MS. MEYERS: Well, I think, you know, let me

3 just finish my point. At the end of the day, the

4 people in this room probably supply over 90 percent of

5 the commercial HVAC equipment in the United States. So

6 at the end of the day, you may have a little bit or a

7 little bit less. You probably have a little that are a

8 little bit more. But at the end of the day, the way we

9 do it today, you know if you use statistical analysis,

10 everything's probably meeting that federal minimum.

11 So were taking something that's working

12 really, really good, trying to make it very, very

13 complicated, and I'm still not getting where we're

14 getting the improvement in energy use across the United

15 States. So, you know, I think we just kind of need to

16 keep that in mind here. I'm trying to figure out, you

17 know, where the improvement is.

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: What are the other options

19 that you guys offer today that you wouldn't consider

20 part of your base model that you use asterisks for?

21 MS. MEYERS: Oh gosh, I'll guess bypass,

22 reclaim.
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1 MR. JOHNSON: Filtration.

2 MS. MEYERS: CO2 sensors. Filtration

3 options. Different motors, different drives.

4 I mean, those are all -- I mean, I could

5 spend - - I mean, I need to go get my spec sheet and

6 look at all these millions of options available.

7 MR. RIVEST: We can deal with it. We can

8 deal with it.

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, I think it's

10 something we have to deal with. It's not something

11 that --

12 MS. MEYERS: But why? Why?

13 MR. AMRANE: But eventually, we don't want to

14 come up with a list, and tomorrow something else come

15 up and it's not on the list and all of a sudden ah, I'm

16 sorry, it's not on the list here.

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, so the other option is

18 I could put an et cetera and I leave it to the

19 discretion of the Department.

20 MR. AMRANE: Okay, well that is --

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't think you want that

22 either.
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1 MR. WHITWELL: But it's going to be a list

2 that's always changing.

3 MS. MEYERS: But explain to me why the

4 Department --

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: I get that part; right? I

6 get that part, but at some point there has to be some

7 level of expectation there about what's in and what's

8 out. Because otherwise I could come to you for

9 something not on the list and say, hey, you know, I

10 tested one of your units with one of these things that

11 wasn't explicit, but you thought it was part of the et

12 cetera, and oh by the way, you know it's either an

13 invalid rating or it's 10 percent below standard, just

14 -- you know, we have an issue.

15 MR. WHITWELL: So there has to be then a

16 process for that. I mean, is that more labor?

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Absolutely. I mean, I don't

18 know. So the idea of the list would be to get around

19 the test procedure waiver. If it's not on the list and

20 it impacts the efficiency, we could either come up with

21 a process or apply the test procedure process as

22 necessary. But there has to be a common understanding
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1 of what's in and what's out at some point.

2 MS. MEYERS: I guess I'm really still

3 struggling with why there has to be a list. Why is the

4 Department thinking that this list is going to improve

5 the energy efficiency of the units being built?

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: We're not saying improve. It

7 needs to meet. We need to understand what needs to

8 meet.

9 MS. MEYERS: Why are you saying that it

10 doesn't need it today? Based upon the --

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's it, some do, some

12 don't.

13 MR. RIVEST: Well I think if you're not

14 worried about it we'll just test them all and place the

15 asterisk things by letters and numbers and pick them

16 all.

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Whatever. We'll just take

18 out the recent, the last --

19 MR. RIVEST: That's what the law says to do.

20 MS. MEYERS: Well, I --

21 MR. RIVEST: That's why we're here, because

22 of the law.
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1 MS. MEYERS: I think the law says you need to

2 compare apples-to-apples based upon a set of

3 conditions. So maybe we need to decide --

4 MR. RIVEST: We'll do that on every model you

5 send.

6 MS. MEYERS: -- what those set of conditions

7 are.

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: It does not do that. It says

9 the units that you distribute in commerce must meet the

10 federal standard. So if you want me to pick -- take

11 out that last sentence, and pick all, any option I want

12 at any time to meet the federal standards, we could.

13 We are willing to give here because we

14 realize that there are certain things that will help

15 with efficiency that we don't want to deter that are

16 good things to have. But we need to understand -- we

17 need to have a common playing field.

18 MR. ARMANE: That's fine. We can come up

19 with the list.

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Absolutely.

21 MR. ARMANE: At the end of the day, as I

22 said, there could be tomorrow something that would not
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1 be on the list and what will you do there?

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: I know.

3 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: There are multiple

4 ways to handle it.

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Let's start with the list.

6 Start with today.

7 MR. EISNER: This sentence here -- can I

8 talk? I get a chance to talk too every once in a while.

9 A basic system -- a basic model does not include

10 options and features that serve unique building

11 applications. You can end that sentence there.

12 You can include such as economizers, energy

13 recovery ventilators, you don't even have to put the et

14 cetera in because the sentence starts off with such as.

15 So you don't -- you just leave the et cetera off.

16 We're giving examples so that we know what

17 are the type of things that we talk about when we're

18 talking about unique building applications. If you

19 take that sentence out, then you don't have that

20 exclusion. What do you want? What works?

21 MR. FLY: So does that include larger fan

22 motors, exhaust fans, start fans?
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1 MR. EISNER: If you want everything on the

2 list, you can put everything on the list, but then the

3 problem's been pointed out, what happens when you come

4 up with a new application. So you either give DOE some

5 discretion by saying, serve unique building

6 applications, with some examples or with no examples,

7 or everything and then you can't add something new.

8 That's the problem with trying to write a rule.

9 MR. JOHNSON: Yeah, I suggest examples.

10 MR. AMRANE: I think that DOE wants examples.

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, I think it goes two

12 ways.

13 MR. RIVEST: We want the examples you're

14 concerned about.

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right.

16 MR. RIVEST: So we can clarify.

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, I want you guys to feel

18 comfortable, too. To the extent you want to leave as

19 serve unique building applications, that leaves it to

20 us to make a decision on a case-by-case basis, and I

21 don't think that's something --

22 MR. THARP: Let's start making a list.
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1 MR. EISNER: Unique gives them a lot of

2 examples. The examples give you some idea of what

3 they're talking about. You could have a complete list,

4 and then you could use a process such as special

5 conditions. I have a new application that I didn't

6 think of when this rule was written, I would like your

7 permission to have that also accepted. A process that

8 you'd have to go through. You'd have to give it to DOE

9 and they'd have to say yes or no. There are various

10 ways you can handle it.

11 You can't write a perfect rule that will

12 cover all future conditions without any questions.

13 Either you give the agency some discretion, you give

14 them a process for approving a special application

15 before you do it, or you give them some limit on their

16 discretion by giving examples.

17 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp at Goodman. I'll

18 suggest that perhaps the manufacturers in the room can

19 go back tonight and we can go look at our own specific

20 sheets and we can make up our own list and we can email

21 each other tonight --

22 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: No later than 11:00,
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1 please.

2 MR. THARP: But then we can develop our list

3 and bring it at 8:00 in the morning.

4 MR. EISNER: Is that with the goal of having

5 everything on the list?

6 MR. THARP: Everything we have today.

7 Everything we know of. Everything we know of today.

8 MR. EISNER: Then what are you going to do

9 with what you develop tomorrow?

10 MS. HOOTMAN: Everything that's a majority.

11 I don't know that I can say -- like I said, I can have

12 a customer call me today and say I want you to put X in

13 there.

14 MR. EISNER: That's what I'm getting at.

15 There is a process to handle that --

16 MS. HOOTMAN: And I'll only do X one time in

17 10 years.

18 MR. THARP: And if that's the case, then you

19 probably don't have to worry about DOE picking on you

20 for it.

21 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, I think what the list

22 would be, would be what we'd offer as --
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1 MS. HOOTMAN: In the catalogue.

2 MR. WHITNELL: In the catalogue.

3 MR. EISNER: But again, I'm saying to you,

4 are you going to be satisfied with your current list

5 today and no way to get approval for future changes

6 without going through a change to the rule?

7 MR. HURST: John Hurst from Lennox. I think

8 what you have is a definition with if you have dot-dot9 dot or et cetera or whatever, you're not defining your

10 list of exclusions so you don't need --

11 MR. EISNER: Okay. So you say such as, but

12 you have a list of 100, 150 items.

13 MR. HURST: I'm not advocating 100 to 150

14 items.

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: And I think we need a

16 starting point. I'm not clear that -- I mean at least

17 to start the discussions tomorrow about what's in and

18 what's out.

19 MR. RIVEST: And if you group things under a

20 theme like air recirculation as opposed to a million

21 design options.

22 MS. HOOTMAN: That's possible.
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1 MR. FLY: A big part of what we're talking

2 about are air flow path issues. I mean there are

3 additional coils, there are additional dampers, there

4 are additional fans, but they all have to do with the

5 air side, not necessarily the refrigeration side.

6 Now, I think there probably are some

7 refrigeration side things -- I don't like to think

8 about them.

9 MR. STARR: There's a DMD, that's a pretty

10 big thing it seems like. That's all on the electrical

11 side.

12 MR. EISNER: So we're in agreement. We go

13 back to our rooms and we come up with a list. Let me

14 remind you, a good point was made earlier that people

15 in this room cover 95 percent of what's sold, but you

16 represent 100 percent. So think of the other five

17 percent and what they might want to put on the list.

18 MR. SACHS: I have one cautionary note I'd

19 like to bring up. I've been thinking a lot about this

20 example of very high static pressure applications. We

21 have a precedence where this was met in small

22 residential stuff with first a waiver, and then a new
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1 product class.

2 This was small lines that are high velocity.

3 And it seems to me that they're two kinds of features.

4 There are those which offer customer value and may

5 improve field efficiency; may not affect it. And there

6 are things which are special applications, such as the

7 operating theatre high static pressure application.

8 And it may be that it turns out to be

9 preferable to do a waiver process for a special class

10 of limited applications that cannot effectively meet

11 the DOE, EER standard because of the motor horsepower

12 required.

13 That went fairly smoothly for small item or

14 high velocity. It may make it easier to write the rule

15 if we think about some of the extreme cases that

16 inherently increase electricity use as handled with a

17 waiver.

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: I will, with one caution.

19 The EER standards are congressional; OHHA can't waive

20 them. Sorry, Harvey.

21 MR. SACHS: We need a neutron bomb up on the

22 hill.
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, I think it's a pretty

2 good idea and that's a great way going forward, but --

3 there (inaudible).

4 MR. SACHS: Yeah. Thank you for reminding

5 me. I'm blushing and --

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think you're part of the

7 negotiation.

8 MR. HURST: I didn't hear any disagreement.

9 MR. KOJAK: Should commercial refrigeration

10 come up with the same list, then?

11 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah, I was going to say before

12 we adjourn --

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think we should all break

14 into our respective groups then and think about it.

15 MS. BARHYDT: I think it would behoove

16 everyone to kind of break into their different areas

17 and actually stay here and work together on your

18 various product equipment areas, and start talking

19 about what makes sense.

20 MR. EISNER: Is the introductory language

21 going to be the same?

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: No.
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1 MS. BARHYDT: It doesn't sound like it will

2 be.

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: No, it'll be different.

4 MR. EISNER: So should we be -- forget the --

5 we're not worrying about the list until tomorrow and

6 going into the other kinds of equipment and talking

7 about --

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think they can do it in

9 their working groups. I mean, that pretty much is how

10 that one was solved, so let's see at least what they

11 come up with for 8:00 a.m. tomorrow.

12 MR. SACHS: Sounds like you're ready to get

13 us out of here.

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: No, no, I mean, I'm happy to

15 stay here and discuss it more if we want to do it as a

16 group, but it could take longer; right?

17 MR. SACHS: I would love the idea of the CRE

18 folks and the big package boiler folks huddling at --

19 we have an extra conference room that's available for

20 one of the groups. And since the HVAC guys have done

21 their thing, they can go have a drink.

22 MS. HOOTMAN: We have commercial furnaces yet
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1 --

2 MR. EISNER: Oh, commercial furnaces. If you

3 all spend more than five minutes on commercial

4 furnaces, I'll be surprised.

5 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah, as long it -- that one's

6 pretty simple.

7 MR. EISNER: Just be sure you put in the

8 allowance for the static drop on the condensing RTU,

9 please.

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: But I mean, one thing to keep

11 in mind are those things that DOE has explicitly

12 addressed in the test procedure. So if those things

13 are explicitly addressed in the test procedure to the

14 extent that you know we're coming up with additional --

15 you know, we're going to have to have some discussions

16 about why they should or shouldn't be included.

17 MS. HOOTMAN: Give me an example of what you

18 mean, Ashley.

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I think it's less for

20 commercial HVAC. There's a lot of things there that

21 are left open-ended. I think there are some options

22 that I can think of that are explicitly addressed in
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1 the CRE realm. So it's just, it's more about that.

2 And I don't know that I have a good one.

3 Heat exchanger coils I guess would be one for

4 you guys, because that is something that's explicitly

5 addressed. I mean, heat exchanger differences are

6 accounted for in the test procedure. Now, whether or

7 not they should or should not be part of different base

8 models we should discuss. But that's something -- and

9 like motor differences.

10 Those are something explicitly differentiated

11 in an EER. But whether they -- it's things that

12 provide us a specific utility, but may result in lower

13 EERs. So those to me are in a different bucket than

14 those that are obvious ones that are energy saving

15 features in the field.

16 And that's not to say that the lists

17 shouldn't include both, or some of both, or all of

18 both, or -- but I think as part of your discussions

19 maybe differentiating between the two at least would be

20 a good starting point.

21 MR. WHITWELL: So say that again.

22 Differentiating between --
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1 MR. RIVEST: There are products that add

2 utility, but may come at a cost both in the field and

3 in the test procedure.

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: To efficiency.

5 MR. RIVEST: Right.

6 MR. DOPPEL: A good example is a crankcase

7 heater that helps extend the life of the compressor and

8 helps the compressor run more efficiently.

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: But doesn't necessarily need

10 to be run all the time.

11 MR. DOPPEL: No.

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I mean to wholesale say a

13 crankcase heater should be excluded, versus one that

14 has the right control strategy to be used effectively

15 when it's needed. Do you see -- I mean, there are

16 differences there.

17 MR. RIVEST: The other bucket would be those

18 that clearly save energy, but may come in at a cost to

19 the test procedure. I think both the test procedure

20 and same energy, they're not a problem.

21 MR. WHITNELL: Among those.

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, this is what we tried
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1 to do with our quadrant's; right? So that's what

2 you're thinking of; all the options and how they fall

3 into quadrants kind of thing.

4 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, I mean essentially all

5 the options add utility. Otherwise we wouldn't have

6 them; right? I mean, they're things that our customers

7 have asked for.

8 MR. RIVEST: I mean, it's true in this case.

9 Some, you know, in other industries to save two bucks,

10 they'll do something.

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: But the question is where do

12 we draw that line? Is everything you know -- and it

13 may be that everything is. I don't know at this point.

14 We'll see. And you may have an idea of what one thing

15 is versus what she thinks something else versus what

16 someone else -- so, that's what we're trying to get at.

17 What is the least common --

18 MR. RIVEST: And at the end of the day, we

19 may - - it may be that the outcome is that we'll be

20 doing the exact same thing AHRI is doing, but now it

21 would be documented internally.

22 MR. AMRANE: I hope so.
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1 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, because part of the

2 complication of course, or a big part of it is that

3 these products aren't sold with just one option.

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Sure.

5 MR. WHITWELL: You get options, upon options,

6 upon options. And so the impact --

7 MR. RIVEST: I don't think we can --

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't think we want to go

9 with the interactions; right? At this point we're

10 making the lists --

11 MR. WHITWELL: No, I know, I understand, but

12 when we get to the certification piece of it --

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, if they're excluded

14 then you're good because --

15 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, right. Exactly.

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right? And that's what we're

17 trying to do is --

18 MR. WHITNELL: Agree.

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- agree upon this common

20 denominator of okay, this doesn't count. And then

21 you're -- you know, we tried to do that ourselves by

22 looking at the directories and your products and each
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1 of you, and our common denominator for each of you was

2 a page for each of you. So it was very difficult for

3 us to do. So hopefully, you guys will have more

4 insight than we did. We spent a lot of time trying to

5 do that.

6 MR. EISNER: All right. So do we want to

7 break up into groups? Do we want to have some people

8 stick around to have the groups come in and talk, or

9 wait until tomorrow morning to do that, so you can get

10 some guidance? What's the consensus of the group? How

11 should we work this? Do you want the DOE --

12 MR. WHITNELL: We want to stay, at least for

13 a little while, to talk about --

14 MR. EISNER: Do you want the DOE people to be

15 available tonight, so you can talk with them about

16 whether you're going --

17 MR. BAUMAN: How many audits do you want next

18 year?

19 MR. WHITNELL: No, I think we -- I think they

20 can be excused.

21 MR. SACHS: I would like --

22 MR. WHITWELL: But stay if you want. Either
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1 way.

2 MR. SACHS: I would like to have us out of

3 the building at 6:00.

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: The discussion would be more

5 productive around the corner at a

6 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, is there a recommended

7 meeting room nearby?

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: There's lots of them.

9 MR. EISNER: We can borrow someplace in the

10 building.

11 Before we break up, Joe Saunders had a

12 question. Joe, are you on the line? Is he just by

13 computer?

14 MR. SACHS: Don't touch that telephone line.

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: We adjourned; right?

16 MR. EISNER: Joe had a question --

17 MR. SAUNDERS: I'm here.

18 MR. EISNER: Joe, you want to repeat your

19 question about how much tolerance is allowed?

20 MR. SAUNDERS: Yes, that was my question.

21 The more variations you have in -- what I'm worried

22 about is just the tolerance isn't wide enough and you
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1 allow all of these variations, that you could end up

2 failing good cabinets because you tested assembly A for

3 the certified rating and then you tested cabinet B for

4 (inaudible) or for validation.

5 And not that anything was wrong with either

6 one of them, but you might - if you used a TXB in one

7 place and a (inaudible) in another, you might have a

8 performance difference. Both of them would be within

9 the federal standard, but not within five percent of

10 what I've written down there, and that had to do with

11 all these variations and components of the basic model.

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, I think that gets to

13 the heart of the issue. I mean, that's why we are

14 coming up with this list of this is in, this is out,

15 some definitive. So you have an expectation of these

16 are the types of things that count; these are types of

17 things that don't. So when you go to come up with all

18 your different ratings and you want to group individual

19 models with different characteristics into a singular

20 rating, you have a given expectation of what that

21 means, as well as the tolerance that will be applied to

22 determine -- this is where this list really matters.
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, we kind of did get to

2 the tolerances for verification. Granted, it was

3 within the AEDM rule, but that was for verification

4 testing. What is a valid rating?

5 MR. SAUNDERS: Right. All right. I mean, if

6 the tolerances are small, the smaller the basic model

7 groups are going to be.

8 MR. SACHS: Remember, we pretty much have a

9 consensus, I think, on one-sided testing, one-sided

10 tolerance intervals, so you can always get more

11 conservative and throw money at the problems.

12 MR. SAUNDERS: I'm not sure -- I think we

13 need to know -- I hate to say these words -- what the

14 definition of conservative is from a manufacturing

15 standpoint --

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: The federal standard is the

17 conservative.

18 MR. SACHS: Point well-taken, and thanks.

19 MR. EISNER: Okay. Any other questions?

20 MR. SACHS: If one of the groups wants to

21 work in the little conference room across the hall,

22 that's certainly possible.
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1 MR. SAUNDERS: Thank you.

2 MR. SACHS: I'm going to wander up to the

3 front so I can let people in and out if they want to go

4 to the little boys' room or little girls' room.

5 MR. EISNER: Yes, we're off.

6 (Whereupon, at 5:35 p.m., the Appliance

7 Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory

8 Committee Meeting was concluded.)

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Capital Reporting Company 

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-28-2013 

1 CERTIFICATE OF COURT REPORTER 

2 I, NATALIA THOMAS, the Court Reporter before 

3 whom the foregoing proceeding was taken, do hereby 

4 certify that the proceeding was recorded by me; that 

5 the proceeding was thereafter reduced to typewriting 

6 under my direction; that said transcript is a true and 

7 accurate record of the proceeding; that I am neither 

8 related to nor employed by any of the parties to this 

9 proceeding; and, further, that I have no financial 

10 interest in this proceeding. 

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")~ u-NATALIA c.- THOMAS -f~ 

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1 CERTIFICATE OF TRANSCRIPTION 

2 I, CINDY MCCALLISTER, hereby certify that I 

3 am not the Court Reporter who reported the following 

4 proceeding and that I have typed the transcript of this 

5 proceeding using the Court Reporter's notes and 

6 recordings. The foregoing/attached transcript is a 

7 true, correct and complete transcription of said 

8 proceeding. 

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~-3-\.:2, ~rro(c~ CINDY M~ALLISTER 

Transcriptionist 

Date 

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158:16

159:7,9,11

162:16,19,22

164:4,21

165:1,10,11

168:3,5 169:16

172:2 173:12,17

175:14,17,18

176:1,4,20

177:1,2,8,10,13

178:1,5

179:1,2,3,5,16,2

0,22

180:7,17,18,19,2

2 188:1

191:11,12,20

192:2,8,10,16,20

193:8

194:4,11,14

195:4,5

196:2,7,20,21

197:5,12,13,15,1

9,22

198:1,10,15,16,1

8 199:1,6,13

200:1,3,7 201:7

203:13 205:2

206:9

208:9,11,12

209:9 211:15

212:8,14 218:18

224:19,20

225:3,19

226:4,13

228:12,15,16,19,

20,21

229:1,13,15,16,1

7

230:3,5,7,17,18,

20 231:22 232:2

239:21 240:4,5

241:15 242:13

244:22 249:1,3

251:13 252:2,3,7

255:4 257:4,7

323:3

AEDM-A 120:10

AEDM-B 120:11

AEDMs 9:7

12:12,15,20

13:15 85:22

119:22 120:2,22

122:1 123:2

124:8 126:8

129:17 132:22

133:3 148:10

162:4 176:19

177:21 181:5

182:11

191:2,3,7,21

192:4,10,11

193:1,22 195:12

197:2 198:2

199:14,20

200:1,11,13,16

201:11 202:2

230:13 251:9

AEDM's 136:4

198:4

affect 12:16 98:18

186:9 217:9

312:5

afraid 278:9

against 22:11

136:7 224:11

257:19 272:5,7

agency 27:1

308:13

agenda 87:7,9

aggregation

248:6,12 254:19

aggressive 222:22

ago 7:6 19:20 20:4

49:1 84:8 97:5

133:13 210:22

211:9 256:21

272:11 280:21

agreed 21:7,9

22:17 26:22 28:4

32:5,17 50:4,20

60:17 92:2 94:4

112:13 118:17

124:16 171:6

227:8,17 243:2

agreeing 29:7

83:12 91:11

239:3

agreement 21:19
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134:4 138:18

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161:9 162:6

163:7,9,12 165:4

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210:6 211:20

218:12,15

223:15,17,19

251:22

263:10,16

269:15 270:15

271:12 272:16

273:14 281:3

283:14 285:11

288:15 294:10

295:3 318:20

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59:8 131:9

132:11

138:2,21,22

143:1 193:14,15

258:12 273:12

279:7 281:14

282:13

288:4,5,10,12

296:11 310:20

311:2,5

Air-Conditioning

2:6 3:11

alerting 222:1

alerts 162:9

alleviate 52:7

54:10,13

Alliance 3:13

allow 48:16 56:1

57:21 69:8 92:17

120:20 132:17

136:1 152:15

153:5 173:17

184:21 189:11

221:1 235:17

278:5 298:20

322:1

allowable 122:11

allowance 315:8

allowed 109:4

121:18 154:19

184:2 256:6

321:19

allowing 13:14

18:18 34:22 35:2

43:5 44:6,15

153:13

249:12,13

275:16

allows 74:8 84:10

87:3 123:3

250:21 255:4

274:4

alluded 72:13

already 19:10 46:1

50:4,20 83:15

93:7 107:8,14,18

122:11 167:19

183:19 188:6

189:14,15

195:16,19 207:2

229:11,19,22

286:22

altar 7:4

alter 64:4

alternative 98:3

altitude 145:16

altogether 212:11

am 39:2 100:14

114:19 325:7

326:3

amend 23:7 261:6

amending 97:1

Among 317:21

amount 74:3 76:7

136:4 143:22

150:5 155:14

160:2 164:14,17

166:8 183:2

195:11 256:22

282:16 288:10

ample 188:22

amplify 6:20

AMRAME 34:22

Amrane 2:6 31:1,4

34:10 35:10 36:1

84:22 94:12,20

95:10,15

112:7,15 137:9

139:8,14 140:16

141:1

151:13,16,18

156:8,13,16

166:18 189:18

190:4

204:5,12,17,22

219:21 220:20

234:3 244:21

245:3,9,11 246:1

255:19

256:4,8,13,15,18

257:10 260:17

261:1 274:9

280:12,19

282:18 286:3

302:13,20

307:10 318:22

analogy 267:1

273:17 279:5

analysis 216:9

301:9

analyze 277:19

analyzing 260:4

anastomosing 80:2

and/or 113:11

144:4 146:10

147:9 276:6

and-a-half 271:3

Ange 158:20,21

angle 24:7

annual 4:5

answer 53:15

99:16 125:5

136:21 168:7

185:11 209:2,10

224:10,14

245:12,15 264:9

answers 65:16

99:15

anti 208:21

anticipate 77:22

anti-sweat 206:15

anybody 8:20 21:5

25:11 26:8,16

27:10 28:2
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anymore 148:10

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271:4

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142:5,15 169:19

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177:22 178:15

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246:5 266:16

277:12 322:5

Anything's 216:3

anyway 10:13

35:16,22 84:10

121:19 188:16

anyways 282:4

anywhere 15:22

121:6 181:12

apart 211:21,22

apologize 5:10

130:10 161:19

apparently 46:3

appear 27:4

appears 168:6

apples 272:5,7

284:2 285:17

apples-to 272:6

285:17

apples-to-apples

305:2

apple-to-apple

274:4

appliance 1:3

276:17 324:6

applicable 17:4,5

30:19

113:17,21,22

application 65:10

267:8 270:11

271:6,19

272:10,22 277:9

285:6,7 288:11

296:14 307:4

308:5,14 312:7

applications

306:11,18

307:6,19 311:20

312:6,10

applied 106:6

120:2 165:1

192:2 200:3

212:14 251:17

293:14 300:14

322:21

applies 109:18

120:6 177:16

197:13 242:9

243:5 259:2

apply 111:7

120:12 125:4,6

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303:21

applying 111:4

appreciate 135:22

appreciated

298:19

approach 284:5

289:5

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137:21 144:14

182:12 183:2

286:11

appropriation

162:10

approval 225:12

310:5

approve 131:8,14

227:19

approved 113:20

114:2 146:12

151:13

approving 199:13

308:14

approximate

289:3

approximated

37:16

approximation

290:2

arbitrator 26:22

area 134:18

228:19 251:9

areas 40:9 138:7

313:16,18

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146:14 259:5

294:6,21 319:3

argue 59:21

261:12

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75:12 76:20

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286:13

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34:7 36:20

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233:20 234:13

260:12

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Armstrong 2:8

4:22

5:2,4,8,11,15,17

6:7,9,12 7:15

8:15 9:20

10:3,7,10

13:6,10 16:3,14

17:7,18

18:1,7,14 19:19

20:7,19 23:22

24:13 30:22

31:2,6,10

32:4,11,16

33:4,13,18

34:2,5,12

35:2,9,14 36:3

37:4 40:19

41:2,8,11 44:5

45:1 46:6,10,15

52:13,17,21

53:14,18

54:3,12,20

55:1,9 56:4,9,19

58:9 59:16,19,21

60:9

61:6,13,20,22

62:21

63:3,6,11,17

64:6,8,13

65:17,22

66:17,20 67:2

68:10

70:3,7,9,14,21

71:4 73:21

74:12,18 75:4

76:5,9 80:6,19
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94:16,22

95:13,16 96:6

97:8 98:13 99:10

100:5 101:20

102:13,19

103:6,8,15,21

107:15

108:9,13,16

109:2,9

110:11,19

111:22 112:4,19

113:7

114:5,12,17

115:11,13

117:16 118:2,22

119:4,6,8,11,13,

17,20

122:12,14,19,22

124:6,14

125:2,11,15,20

126:11,22

127:9,12,15,19

128:6,11 129:22

137:2 139:13

140:1,5,14,21

141:3,9,13,15

142:22 143:3

144:17 145:3

146:6

147:8,18,21

148:2,10,13,17,2

2 149:2,15

150:5,11,16,18,2

2 151:4,7 152:11

153:18,21

154:12

155:18,21

156:11,15

157:2,18 158:1

160:6,15 161:22

164:11 165:22

166:17,20

173:21 174:6,8

175:7,11

176:2,9,16 177:6

180:4 181:18

185:8,11,15,18

187:2,13,18

188:13

189:14,20

190:2,6,11,14,18

191:13,18

192:12 193:9

194:9,15

195:6,11

196:9,17

198:8,13,17

199:3

200:2,8,10,14,17

202:10,14,17,21

203:2,9,14

204:1,9,15,18

205:1,4,6,14

206:4,7,22

207:5,9,14

208:14,19 209:5

210:11,17 212:6

213:17

215:14,22

216:14,19

217:14 218:22

225:1,5,9 226:21

227:4 228:3

229:7 230:2,9,22

231:5,8

232:1,4,9,12

233:21

234:5,11,18,22

235:8,14,17,20

236:4,8,16,22

237:3,22

238:3,16,22

240:1,18 242:1,4

243:14

244:6,9,13

245:1,5,8,10,14,

19 246:7 247:6

249:16 254:1

256:10,14,16

257:8,12,22

258:4 259:9,16

260:13,22

262:14 264:11

265:20 266:3

268:14,19

270:3,12,22

274:12

277:1,14,17

280:20

282:3,10,20

284:19 285:2

290:14 291:11

292:1,5,8 294:17

295:1,11,21

296:2,5,16,20

297:13,16

300:5,10,17,20

301:18

302:9,17,21

303:5,17

304:6,11,17

305:8,20 306:2,5

307:11,15,17

310:15 312:18

313:1,6,13,22

314:3,8,14

315:10,19

317:4,9,12,22

318:11

319:4,8,13,16,19

321:4,8,15

322:12 323:1,16

articulated 300:22

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7:11,20,22 8:6

13:3 30:5 47:2

96:11 100:2

102:8 103:14

108:3 112:21

130:20 133:14

144:16

146:19,20 151:9

158:9 187:19

197:9 207:11

246:10 249:10

315:18

Ashley's 79:17

116:7,18 238:20

ASHRAE 9:4,8

11:20 16:19

31:12 285:13

288:7,15 290:1

aside 265:9

aspect 138:20

210:7

aspects 40:4

assemblies 90:9

assembly 322:2

assessment 33:22

41:20 94:14

174:4,6

175:15,21

203:11,17

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276:10

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assume 27:11

39:22 40:20

101:14 170:15

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assumed 115:15

284:15

assumes 129:5

156:9

assuming 23:4
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266:6,17 301:20

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attendance 48:10

attending 34:8

attention 6:3

103:13 117:19

118:10

attributes 248:7

audio 18:13

audit 16:1 89:13

audited 60:22

88:14

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109:22 230:1

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automatic 10:7

11:5 32:3,18

33:16 35:19

50:17,18

58:6,10,17,18

69:11,15 72:5

73:19 76:12,13

91:12,16 99:18

109:6

automatically

32:7,9 44:12

70:4 71:5 171:11

273:22

automobile 266:22

267:1

available 109:20

302:6 314:19

320:15

avenue 1:7 39:22

146:9

avenues 80:14

average 43:2

avoid 36:22

199:11 270:18

awake 117:11

aware 8:8 40:6

115:2 187:18

215:9

away 28:9 53:12

59:11 79:17 90:9

94:3 121:20

136:9 140:9

158:4 186:5

187:5 234:14

285:18

awful 211:3

awfully 145:4

awkward 134:9

aye 22:10 23:10

B

baby 141:5

background 15:18

back-to-back

216:1

bad 176:15

206:14,15,18

209:15,17

210:9,13 211:2,5

213:15 222:7,16

223:6,13 233:8

293:5 299:5

bakery 4:13

balance 222:15

276:20

Ballo 2:9 77:8

198:20 199:5,9

band 126:7 131:6

132:17 134:1

190:17

bands 131:11

132:9

bare 182:19

Barhydt 2:10

24:11,14 28:12

34:9

45:6,10,14,22

55:21 56:1,10

73:9,19 82:2,6

89:14 98:10

100:2 108:18

109:17 111:20

112:3 114:21

115:12 118:11

122:13,17,21

123:7,12,18

124:7,13 126:9

129:18 130:1,5

132:20 136:13

139:17 140:4,12

148:7,16 174:7

175:9,13 176:8

179:7,9

188:10,15

189:10,22

191:15 194:21

204:11 206:6

207:6

213:3,5,8,13,19,

22 217:19 225:6

229:9 235:6,11

242:10 246:6,9

256:1,3 290:9

292:7,15

313:11,15 314:1

base 69:1 168:9

265:5 274:22

275:17 276:4

291:3,4 292:10

301:20 316:7

based 7:13 31:19

92:20 114:18

122:4 123:21

137:13,19 174:7

176:13 181:22

213:3,4 254:18

281:3 304:10

305:2

basic 11:14 25:11

60:21 68:6 82:6

83:15 85:18

86:7,8 88:11,14

136:15,16

149:18,19 155:1

157:4 165:6

166:22 168:5

180:17,21

181:1,2 188:5

194:7 196:13

231:14,15

239:22

240:9,12,21

241:3,5,11,18

243:11

248:2,12,13

249:5,8

251:6,10,13,22

252:3,4

253:19,20,21

254:3,4,9,11,15,

22 255:3 256:20

257:2 258:19

259:13

260:10,15,18

261:17 263:7,19

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basically 14:12

15:20 104:21

110:9 120:4,7

129:5 133:19

138:2 142:15

145:18 150:8

158:14 179:5

180:8 212:22

214:8 230:5

234:20 251:20

295:7

basis 134:17

154:13 159:19

167:9 198:10

213:15 288:21

307:20

basket 197:20

Bauman 2:11

48:19 49:21 50:3

82:15 91:4 96:11

100:7 103:10,16

104:4,14,18

105:4 106:19

107:14,16

130:14,17 141:2

148:19 149:1,14

150:3,8,13,17,20

151:2,6

161:11,13

176:12,17

177:7,18 185:19

187:17

191:9,14,17

192:3 199:7

234:2,9,15,19

235:2,9,19

236:18 296:19

320:17

bear 92:1

beats 133:8

become 109:15

168:4

becomes 105:19

198:1 247:13

250:6 251:1

bed 162:17

begin 189:13

beginning 39:8

73:3 77:19 78:14

118:3 148:13

behind 91:20

107:3 191:5,8

247:9 267:1,5

273:18

behoove 313:15

believe 9:14,16

71:14 92:4

133:21 137:14

143:13 163:8

200:4 205:16

237:7 280:19

believes 48:8

benefit 18:20

19:2,3 57:13

264:1,8 269:4

benefits 19:18

besides 13:4

115:19

best 28:15 38:9

39:6 44:9 71:19

261:19

better 16:15 29:9

51:3,4 78:17,18

81:11 96:6 100:1

112:8 130:6

139:21 143:13

149:3 150:21

151:3 183:1

218:9 237:8

243:13 277:10

278:2,3 284:16

285:16

Beverages 4:13

beyond 62:10

93:18 180:13

223:17 233:9

283:14 285:17

289:21

bifurcated 17:8

bigger 10:12 140:7

173:6,7 176:7

biggest 15:22

bill 151:17

birthing 238:21

bit 4:3 6:14 12:22

24:8 45:4 79:3

99:1 150:2 187:5

205:16 218:19

248:19 263:6

301:6,7,8

bite 137:1

bitty 242:12

black 277:12

BLAKE 23:14

blank 288:20

blind 38:6

block 25:13

blocks 232:15,16

blushing 313:5

BMGs 249:12

board 51:11 75:3

121:19 125:5

139:17 140:11

153:16

boat 267:1,5

273:18 274:2,8

279:12

Bob 31:18 55:11

62:19 97:19

106:1 154:16

189:4 193:12

277:3 298:19

body 146:17

boiler 252:9,12

253:13,16

255:15 314:18

boilerplate 4:3

boilers 10:20

14:20 16:5,9,15

38:4 123:13

142:14,15 144:2

145:10,13

253:5,9 297:18

bomb 312:21

books 17:2 219:15

borrow 321:9

bottom 203:10

228:7 237:18

box 182:10

boy 246:6

boys 324:4

brain 129:4

braised 211:3

brand 39:21 84:4

brands 251:3,4,7

break 24:22 26:20

110:12,14,18

152:5 197:2

243:17 245:22

313:13,16 320:7
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bridge 80:1

Brief 25:3 110:15

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briefing 261:14

bring 20:17 56:14

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257:9 267:16

269:6 309:3

311:19

bringing 48:21

138:8

broad 124:13,14

135:8 190:17

195:1 217:1

broader 13:12

201:7

broken 202:2

brought 48:20

52:15 79:21

brush 135:8

BTS 14:20

BTU 145:17

146:22 193:16

BTUs 142:6,16,19

144:4

145:14,19,20

bucket 316:13

317:17

buckets 274:14

bucks 318:9

budgetary 55:17

build 72:15,17

92:13 180:13

183:15 245:16

269:8 277:22

282:11

building 1:8 4:9

106:9 117:12

269:7 271:19

272:3,8,15,19,22

273:11 288:11

296:14

306:10,18

307:5,19

321:3,10

buildings 273:5

builds 77:17 83:4

built 42:6 54:6

77:18 94:18

244:16 266:7

286:18 287:1

304:5

bullet 102:18

156:19

bullets 142:12

bunch 174:13

221:17

burden 61:1

100:18 222:14

225:20 226:5

237:17

263:8,9,13

burn 50:6

burners 252:22

Burritos 117:5

bus 15:2

business 154:21

169:8,9 194:6

269:10 293:21

buttoned 288:13

buy 223:7 273:19

buying 80:1

286:6,8

bypass 301:21

C

cabinet 322:3

cabinets 322:2

cafeteria 4:18

calculated 82:3

calculation 122:5

calendar 83:21

156:6,7 173:19

186:8,17,18

187:7 197:14

203:15

calibrated

208:15,20

calibration 129:17

136:4 209:1,11

cap 15:22 16:1,14

58:2

capabilities 54:15

145:1

capability 34:16

145:14 146:16

147:2

capacities 249:7,8

259:21

capacity 14:17

37:15 43:22

45:16 46:11

60:19 61:7 80:4

88:10 129:8

248:7,14 296:12

Capital 1:20

capture 64:20

293:9

captured 267:19

269:1

car 15:2 273:18,19

274:2,7 279:5,7

281:14 282:14

cards 24:8

care 39:8 63:2

careful 5:22 7:1

Carrier 3:18 31:18

55:12 62:19

97:19 106:1

154:17 189:5

193:13 277:4

carryover 132:17

case 10:18 13:16

38:9 61:4 77:12

94:15 103:12

105:9 124:18

125:13,18

156:21 157:12

159:17 204:6

206:15

209:16,17

211:19 241:10

263:11 268:3

286:3 287:20

309:18 318:8

case-by-case

307:20

cases 95:4 140:7

154:22 163:21

182:17 264:9

293:6 312:15

catalogue 310:1,2

catch 187:10

catch-22 47:18

114:14

categories 126:8

127:6 150:19

179:4 268:21

categorize 217:1

category 37:20

88:18,20 89:3

189:9

caught 114:19
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265:10

caution 312:18

cautionary 311:18

cautious 93:13

caveat 85:18

CE 243:11

center 7:4

central 132:11

144:8

cert 95:17

certain 30:20

40:5,9 44:17

69:9 70:9 106:5

111:1 140:7

142:19

155:4,9,14 156:3

157:5 158:12

166:8 208:20

248:7 252:11,17

253:10 254:10

256:22 269:1

275:16 279:6

295:9 305:14

certainly 15:8 47:4

134:5,6 145:15

154:17 167:2

179:15 182:6

193:6 221:18

252:6,10 269:3

299:14 300:1

323:22

certainty 124:20

142:8

CERTIFICATE

325:1 326:1

certification 13:15

14:11 17:4 62:6

69:9 70:5 102:21

108:14,20 109:8

135:17 161:8

162:3,6,7 191:16

251:1 256:15

263:15 264:16

293:10,14

319:12

certifications

47:21

certified 15:9 45:9

52:2,3 57:22

70:10 83:14

147:1 157:4

199:4 233:21

240:3 247:16,22

250:22 251:6,8

258:16,19

266:9,14 322:3

certify 63:6,7 70:2

74:15 82:14

100:12 199:5

247:20 248:2

249:9 254:8

256:18

260:18,19

283:20 325:4

326:2

certifying 75:9

81:16 100:19

239:21 249:5

256:12

cetera 111:14

121:5 161:16

296:17 300:21

302:18 303:12

306:14,15 310:9

challenge

173:15,18

223:14,19

challenging

100:11

chamber 145:6

252:15 280:6

chambers 145:1

chance 24:22

185:17 287:8

306:8

chances 72:14

183:17

change 13:22

23:11 80:21

85:13 89:22

93:11,22 105:17

112:15

120:16,19

155:11 161:15

169:5 174:17

187:15 193:4

199:2,16 209:2,9

230:14 234:19

237:5,20 239:7

251:19 255:1

265:9,22 271:5

280:8 289:6,7

310:6

changed 16:11

114:9 140:7

145:17 161:3

209:3,6,7

changes 68:11

106:7 119:17

121:14 151:7

160:13

161:15,16

162:22 240:15

310:5

changing 47:12

77:16 139:1

255:8 281:22

303:2

characteristics

91:3 260:8,9,14

264:19 265:14

272:18 322:19

Charles 2:17

Charlie 12:6

134:21 153:15

154:2 186:20

190:15,22

191:10 219:5,6

Charlie's 222:3

chart 197:9 205:8

229:4

cheat 222:2

cheating 294:4

check 10:4 48:10

59:13,14 137:21

238:9 287:4

checked 47:22

75:10 268:9

chewing 136:12

choice 70:1 73:3

75:2 111:8 181:9

299:4

choking 191:6

choose 70:5 71:18

105:18 109:7

184:11 206:3

chose 263:1,19

chosen 262:22

263:4,5,6,7

Chris 13:7

chunks 224:5

CINDY 326:2,11

circle 223:10

circular 85:21

86:11

circulate 225:12

circulated 7:11,20

28:9 30:5

97:4,17 102:8

130:20 152:21

circumstance
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circumstances

44:8,17 153:3

269:2

citizen 72:20

claim 250:2

claimed 84:7

claiming 265:4

clarification 31:19

65:14 97:19 99:3

126:2 148:19

205:16 224:16

233:17 249:11

298:6 299:19

clarify 8:10 75:2

118:19 181:3

198:10 263:12

307:16

clarifying 66:10

clarity 26:5,13

100:1

clash 40:9

class 4:9 45:17

61:15 81:20

123:15

127:11,12

144:21 145:1

149:4,16 164:22

177:4,5 181:6

191:21,22

192:5,17,20

193:1,3,7,14

194:1,14,15

195:8,9 196:8

197:4,6

199:20,21

200:1,12 212:15

228:20 233:2,3

236:13,14

237:9,13,15,21

280:10 296:7

297:21 312:1,9

classes 45:16

46:11,12 119:22

120:3,8,9,21

121:22

123:2,9,17

124:3,5 125:7,19

127:1 128:2

142:18 149:6

164:15,22

192:14 195:1

196:21 197:5

200:4

237:10,11,12

classification

142:21

classifications

191:1

classified 122:4,6

124:1

clause 45:13,15

108:3,4

cleaning 91:21

clear 27:8 29:7,9

68:18 97:3 99:12

113:16 122:3

124:12 129:13

225:8 262:12

266:9 298:3

310:16

clearer 28:4

clearly 6:22 22:5

175:4 181:12

317:18

Cleaver-Brooks

8:5 14:6,19

client 118:16

269:5 291:14

climate 279:10

285:1 287:19

clogged 211:1

212:1

clogging 212:1

close 38:8 91:11

153:10 164:4

221:7 227:10

253:7,19

closed 21:18

closer 81:2 175:1

289:12 295:21

closing 86:3

cloudy 28:21

CO2 64:11 302:2

coatings 277:7,9

code 274:1 285:17

coding 267:10

coil 211:1,20 212:2

295:9

coils 258:12

296:10,11 311:3

316:3

cold 193:14

column 165:5

combinations

258:12,21

282:19

combustion

252:15,18 253:1

comes 40:13

134:14 201:20

240:10 253:19

270:15 281:14

286:21

Comfort 2:11

comfortable 19:11

28:16 35:3 60:5

65:12,15,18

80:16 82:18

116:1 121:13

131:18 132:16

212:12 231:11

236:2,4 307:18

coming 5:7 36:4

38:3 42:18 52:13

58:20 67:13

91:20 114:8

166:2 247:10

250:7 256:16

265:4 273:14

291:16 315:14

322:14

comment 28:14

41:15 96:4,10

156:17

217:18,22

300:13

commented

133:14

comments 14:2

25:17 27:13 29:2

31:17 51:19

79:16 96:3 101:3

110:18 111:19

112:5 116:15

135:5 142:10

205:8 266:6

commerce 46:19

86:18 114:4,20

131:9 132:10,19

283:10 284:10

292:10 305:9

commercial 11:1,3

12:10,12

16:5,9,15 30:20

31:13 41:17,20

42:4,6,13 54:19

65:7 128:21,22

141:19

142:2,14,15,19,2

2 146:8 148:20
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186:13 212:16

222:21 259:1

278:11 279:18

283:18

284:19,21 286:3

292:21 293:14

295:19 297:7

298:1,2,11 301:5

313:9 314:22

315:2,3,20

commission 38:3

commit

44:6,11,14,20

60:9 70:11

commitment

70:13 74:20

committee 1:4

9:4,6,8 11:20

16:19 85:5,6

102:4 134:16

324:8

common 69:13

113:4 248:13,14

249:6,7 251:11

266:14 290:21

293:16 296:12

298:8 303:22

305:17 318:17

319:19 320:1

communicate

158:21

communicating

78:18

community 222:1

companies 31:17

217:10

232:19,20

293:22

company 1:20

2:20 3:3 18:22

40:13 153:17,18

157:5 169:1

224:12 225:20

231:12,13

232:16,18

287:11 290:13

291:16,19

comparability

284:2

comparable 55:3

296:9,10,11

299:7

compare 271:11

283:13 305:2

compared 281:13

283:4

comparing 15:2

comparison

271:21 272:5

274:5

278:7,10,18,21

286:15

compelled 161:19

compensated

136:6

competent 55:2,3

competitor 283:5

competitors

272:5,7

compilation

144:19

complaints

295:1,5

complete 20:12

33:1 308:3 326:7

completely 54:20

87:18 106:10

132:16 272:9

complex 43:1

66:12 69:1,13

72:1,7 75:13

complexity

42:7,17 64:16

66:5 67:15 74:10

compliance 17:4

283:2,20 285:15

286:14 292:14

293:11 295:5

compliant 131:14

284:3 291:9

complicated 41:17

70:19,22 84:5

90:15 182:7

189:9 190:9

255:11

279:16,21 280:2

282:19 301:13

complication

319:2

comply 203:6

component 169:3

175:19 187:6

201:4 206:14,21

207:4,8,19

208:4,6,8,11

209:1,15,17,19

210:9,13,14

211:5,10,15,18

216:7,20 299:7

components 90:9

201:19 210:16

219:9 220:19

260:20 322:11

compressor 210:1

295:8,14 317:7,8

compressors

129:13 296:9

compromise 50:17

237:17

compromises 49:1

computer 321:13

concept 63:7 77:16

78:12 131:6

132:17 153:12

189:11 248:11

251:10 252:6

259:3 264:15

concepts 167:3

248:17 282:17

concern 37:1

56:15 59:3 65:5

71:12 110:20

116:7,8 131:3

133:3 149:13,15

154:2 167:19

198:21 222:4

238:10

concerned 12:19

45:20 98:12

110:21 154:9

307:14

concerns 8:7

14:5,20 27:22

54:10,13 104:8

105:10 115:7,20

149:4 237:2

238:7 241:2

concluded 324:8

conclusion 27:16

136:14 293:13

conclusions 159:6

condenser 211:6

212:5 258:11

295:8,14

condensing 296:10

315:8

condition 239:6

conditioner 131:9

conditioners
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conditioning 3:17

132:11

138:21,22 143:1

281:14 282:13

conditions 269:15

271:11 273:2

283:11

284:14,22

305:3,6 308:5,12

condone 135:8

conduct 146:21

conducted 33:7

39:13 48:11

180:20

conference 314:19

323:21

confidence 50:8

131:11

confident 38:20

125:22 157:15

configurations

129:14 193:19

262:5

conflict 62:17

confused 151:3

confusing 67:7

confusion 102:4

281:10

Congress

151:13,16

congressional

312:19

consensus

9:12,13,16,17

11:21 21:15

25:13,16 27:5,7

28:20 29:8 88:17

90:5 102:9

295:17,18

320:10 323:9

consequence 226:1

231:11 243:5

consequences

133:1 165:21

225:18 234:16

235:3 243:9

conservative

323:11,14,17

consider 16:14

43:20 97:13

105:17 107:5

142:1 147:17

154:18 233:22

239:1 301:19

consideration

172:21

considerations

146:14

considered 33:22

40:4 55:7 67:19

165:21

166:13,15

171:13 215:11

considering 58:15

consistency 173:1

281:19

consistent 152:17

211:10 280:21

281:1,2,11 282:9

consistently

152:17 280:15

consists 248:6,12

constant 262:9

constantly 219:10

constrained 129:7

construct 254:4

Consultants 2:16

consulting 2:3

272:14 287:3

consumer 247:22

250:1 283:3

284:18

consumers 286:4

consuming 208:5

consumption

276:14 283:21

284:12,14

contact 13:3 25:5

39:12,19 41:21

49:11 50:13

contents 88:3

contest 294:10

context 132:21

133:2 157:21

175:6,12 178:22

197:12

continue 144:15

199:14

continued 54:8

162:12

contract 144:10

contractor 38:10

293:4

contractors 79:10

control 90:9

317:14

controls 293:5

converge 108:22

conversation 88:8

217:15 228:10

246:15 252:5

283:20

conversations 5:21

89:5 243:20,22

conveyed 78:17

coolers 31:10

cooling 2:14

128:22 133:16

134:3 137:16

193:20,21

296:12

COP 138:1 233:18

copy 115:1

corner 4:13 6:17

321:5

Corporation 3:10

correct 10:9 19:15

30:22 33:13 34:2

62:21 63:4,11,18

64:9 79:14 89:3

95:7 114:19

161:22 163:3

179:20 181:8

207:19 208:7

209:19 234:18

235:8 236:22

268:14 294:22

326:7

correction 228:8

corrections 7:21

correctly 66:7

107:11 132:8

163:2 216:13

275:10

correspond 251:16

correspondence

250:15,21

corresponding

119:22

cost 37:1,7 38:15

51:1 71:22

91:19,20 92:1,6

93:1,9,12 104:8

180:2,3,5,6,12
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243:21 298:15

317:2,18

costing 154:5

costs 50:22

counsel 131:7

count 14:14,15

17:20 91:15

205:12 291:7

319:20 322:16

counted 203:22

counter 136:2

151:10

counterproductiv

e 116:6

counts 215:7

couple 12:5 98:11

145:18 186:4

215:5 223:7

255:16

couples 53:6

course 212:19

273:11 297:5

319:2

court 6:1,20 22:20

24:8 64:19,20

72:3 78:11 117:5

243:21

325:1,2,14

326:3,5

cover 96:16 127:2

296:7 308:12

311:15

covered 10:17

46:1 80:16 179:5

180:17 188:1

192:9 198:14

covering 120:17

121:8,15 126:19

covers 21:1 126:19

175:17 228:19

242:13

cower 133:7

cracked 288:5

crane 15:6 234:11

crankcase

317:6,13

CRE 31:13 37:14

146:2 244:5

297:7 314:17

316:1

create 123:8

255:11 261:7,8

created 294:3

creates 268:12

creating 182:19

267:22

credibility 284:16

credit 275:19

criteria 159:14

criterion 80:5

cross 123:16 124:5

125:9 150:7

237:10,14

253:11,14,15

254:10 255:8

CSA 145:19

cultural 4:8

culture 131:4

current 25:21

144:20 217:12

248:9 255:20

261:13 310:4

curtain 59:8

curve 269:22

273:10

curves 126:7

cushion 230:21

custom 71:10,14

221:14 222:20

224:6 225:18

244:5,16,19

245:16

customer 244:18

267:8 269:8

271:17 309:12

312:4

customers 63:2

79:9 283:12

289:13 318:6

cut 43:20 53:9

72:16 98:14

211:21,22 222:7

cutoff 165:14

cycle 229:10

260:18 285:7

298:10

cycles 132:5

D

D.C 1:9

da 203:6,7

Daikin 2:21

daily 231:6

damn 285:4

damper 288:12

dampers 311:3

Dane 2:12 51:20

52:14,20,22

53:17

54:2,8,18,22

55:8 108:21

109:5,10

151:9,15,17,20

data 139:11,20

147:7,17,20

166:8,15,16

175:20 184:2

198:3 200:5

201:12,14

202:9,20

205:20,21

206:11 207:18

208:1,7,8,16

212:10,20

218:17 223:8

224:2,18 225:19

273:15 290:1

database 109:2

154:4,7

161:15,16 191:8

247:21

250:14,17,22

256:19 258:2

259:8 280:18

281:21 290:1

date 16:17 41:22

53:21 326:11

day 52:7 90:22

95:6 98:20

113:11 175:2

260:7 272:11

279:21 289:14

301:3,6,8 305:21

318:18

days 12:5 85:15

186:22

deal 81:16 113:13

166:1 236:7

245:20 246:18

279:20

302:7,8,10

dealership 273:19

death 158:18

231:19

decade 221:20
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December 151:18

decide 8:1 23:2

25:8 81:16 85:6

95:11,22 104:17

105:16 112:11

162:18 186:16

263:22 305:3

decided 13:13

decision 13:7,21

20:13 23:8 27:17

73:22 74:2 77:2

95:21,22 97:16

105:17 240:12

288:22 307:20

deck 148:14

declare 57:12 69:8

71:4 100:12

231:2

declared 184:22

declaring 191:11

decrease 282:14

default 33:9 36:14

41:5 68:13,14

80:9 87:4 94:19

121:1,18 209:11

231:18

defect 168:16

216:7,8,16

defective 175:19

204:6 209:22

210:1 215:7

216:7,20 220:5,7

defects 168:14

216:11

define 45:6 61:11

88:17 89:15,16

90:3 95:4 99:2

112:9 121:11

175:14 181:2

182:2 190:16

227:6,18 261:16

263:19

defined 14:9 15:21

93:15,16,18

121:2 124:4

142:18 143:1

161:20 175:5,8

181:18 233:19

257:2

defining 89:14

95:3 190:15

196:20 310:9

definitely 20:9

219:2 250:14

274:7 276:14

definition

83:13,14,17

84:13,18 85:2

90:7 98:18

112:14 151:11

169:11 196:14

241:5,19 248:9

255:20 256:8

281:4 294:2

295:11,12,13,20

296:5 297:10,19

298:19 299:21

310:8 323:14

Definitionally

141:17

definitions 89:19

definition's 295:6

definitive 13:21

58:20 99:6 111:8

282:13 322:15

degrees 192:7

288:10

delay 187:8

delineations

147:10

denied 155:9

denominator

240:15 266:15

293:17 298:8

319:20 320:1

department 1:1,6

2:8,10 3:7 12:7

16:8,18,20 19:20

33:6 34:21 36:3

57:21 58:1,16

59:19 62:13

77:12 90:3

102:20 103:3,9

110:20 111:8

113:2 114:10

115:9,13,15,19

116:1 153:1

163:8 166:8

173:11 185:3

188:12 250:2

268:9 302:19

303:4 304:4

department's 16:4

39:7 69:6,19

72:19 74:13

83:18 111:9

264:15

depend 109:17

dependent 175:13

depending 106:8

121:13 182:11

194:1 241:5

288:11

depends 53:14

67:14 99:1

126:22 191:7,18

196:17 267:7

depicts 113:9

derated 285:9

derivative 126:5

derived 248:16

describe 282:7,21

described 196:8

254:4,14 255:3

describing 262:19

description 125:1

270:14

descriptors 121:5

design 45:10

201:17 208:6

216:10,12 244:5

248:13 267:14

310:21

designed 252:10

designs 44:18

46:17 201:17

detached 76:15

detail 20:11 67:5

76:18

details 147:13

175:3 267:10,13

deter 305:15

determination

68:15,20 90:17

99:6 174:19

determine 72:9

74:9 130:2

174:21 207:17

230:15 295:5

322:22

determined 68:13

174:10

determines 130:6

determining

152:13 250:8

detract 300:14

develop 17:21

154:6 191:7
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fine 20:15 25:22

29:4 41:10 82:22

101:19 204:17

205:14 214:7

286:10 288:2,14

291:6 305:18

fines 165:19 166:1

finish 21:11 23:18

138:9 225:15

238:14 239:15

263:21 301:3

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finishing 270:14

finite 273:2

fins 277:11

fire 4:5 252:10

254:9

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firms 286:6

first 7:10,18 16:20

25:6 26:21 30:9

34:8 37:11

38:15,22 42:12

44:2 60:20

61:4,7 68:17

72:4,14,22 73:6

75:14 85:22

91:14 92:3,17,18

93:6 94:8,11

95:11 97:20

101:4 102:22

105:12 118:15

120:11 132:22

138:10 152:6,8

153:11 156:21

160:7 165:5,15

168:8 171:10

176:12 177:19

178:19 180:9

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201:13,15 215:9

223:2 226:22

228:13 232:16

235:21 239:5

241:7 251:15

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292:18 311:22

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259:12

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five 38:19 117:8,9

133:4,19 137:10

138:10 155:15

172:9,11 178:18

179:17 182:10

200:11 223:9

240:5,7,8 269:13

291:6,7,8 311:16

315:3 322:9

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181:17

five-minute

110:11,13

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140:9 189:1

208:9 268:18

270:5

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298:16,20

Fixtures 3:5

flat 77:9 80:3

flaws 216:12

flexibility 69:8

278:1

flip 221:16

float 184:12

floor 117:13

132:14 156:18

flow 79:6

262:17,20 268:8

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flows 79:13

fluctuate 89:7

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184:19

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203:1,4,8

230:13,18

231:3,7 269:6,20

270:7,10 271:2,8

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119:14 121:7,21

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footnote's 101:20

force 288:8

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foregoing 325:3

foregoing/

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forget 29:14,16

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forgot 11:4

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formulate 45:21

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288:10

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front 4:10 12:21

24:8 30:4 71:21

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284:14 290:5

291:18 297:12

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gain 78:16

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271:20

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124:2 128:13,14

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getting 10:13 16:8

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government 34:9
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grammatical 8:1

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happy 26:4 88:4

93:10 95:16
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242:13

hits 211:10

hitting 155:8

hmm 92:16 205:4

hold 17:15,16

85:8,9 256:3
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holding 243:18

262:9

hole 53:9

holes 53:3

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ideas 91:2 153:2

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identical 58:13

248:10 253:11
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includes 131:6

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incoming 219:8

incorrectly 212:5

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137:9

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220:17

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134:10

219:8,13,18

283:9 284:10,15

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responsible

220:17 291:20
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rest 21:13 106:22

117:20 118:9

226:17

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278:4 283:19

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124:8,9 231:4

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288:3 292:19

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rules 23:2,7,11

56:1,4 80:3

86:14 87:1 116:4

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311:18 312:21

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217:8

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155:1 194:6

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254:17 280:8

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218:13 221:22

290:20 293:14

schemes 281:2

scheming 218:13

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13:11 30:4

31:2,4 87:22

117:21,22

118:2,8,20

137:4,8 190:14

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28:3,6,10 29:12

80:18 138:7

178:21

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screens 7:13

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second 12:1 34:10

35:1 36:2,22

37:20 45:13,15

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68:18 73:5 82:17

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107:11 117:13

119:20 120:11

121:21 122:22

148:20 156:18

157:12 160:7

179:18 182:9

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266:6
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seems 14:8,9,16

19:8 40:9 42:8

67:9 68:4 83:2

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139:6 160:11

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111:14 189:6

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66:7 72:8 79:8

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262:8

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shutdown 188:6

shutting 188:8

sic 141:17

sides 186:1

261:8,9,10

sight 171:5 223:2
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significant 169:9

263:10

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slide 118:7 152:8

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247:18 256:9

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slide-by 246:20

slides 52:11 152:6

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276:12 277:20

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150:14 217:6

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27:3,11 34:18

35:11 44:1 59:11

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105:13,21

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286:4,17,18,22

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31:8 45:14 62:18

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125:17 127:20

132:2 138:11

160:18 161:10

162:1 173:15

205:9 221:10

225:14 267:4

302:16 312:20

sort 37:17 38:5
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104:19 132:22

133:10 143:22

213:16 218:14

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229:21 232:3

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specification

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specifications

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180:15 286:7

specter 223:1

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spend 36:2 95:8

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178:5 197:21

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starts 176:14

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startup 15:10,14

40:5 42:2 79:4
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state 217:6

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181:12

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131:20,21,22

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summarize 152:10

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135:11 162:9,17

170:4 171:17

182:16 198:1

suspicion 159:9

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syncing 139:2

system 7:6 67:15

68:6 69:1 79:6

132:11 177:16

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264:7 268:5

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table 9:21 13:13

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176:14 206:5

209:13 218:22

221:17 227:2

261:11,19

276:15 297:2

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taking 112:22

178:5 294:5

301:11

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52:10 57:2 71:15

96:4 97:14

114:15 115:8,21

119:8 154:10

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167:21 171:2,9

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204:14 205:13

240:11 246:19

261:3,4,13

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46:19 78:1 114:8

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technology 7:16
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304:14

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36:15,16 37:22

38:21,22 40:14

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51:3 52:3 55:4

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65:4,13 67:3,12

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2 260:22 261:1

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120:17 121:8,16

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50:8 51:2,3,7

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77:5,6 80:10

92:12 93:12

116:10 120:10

122:6 127:9

140:10 142:20

154:6 162:4

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176:11 178:10

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200:15,16

204:14 219:13

232:17 234:20

235:9 244:20

251:17 252:10

253:15 255:17

267:22 271:20

272:1,2,10

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285:2,3 286:8

289:17 292:9,13

293:22 297:20

308:3 312:3

317:20 318:6

319:13

they've 13:7 15:20

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38:17 39:10

52:18 56:21 59:5

60:2 62:5 80:7

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2 237:9,11,14

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28:17 30:10

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117:3 138:18

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three-week 216:1

three-year 160:5

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176:10

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101:21 113:18

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throw 18:19 77:14

83:2 90:7 166:12

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throwing 56:3
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190:19 224:14

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270:7 280:13

298:12 300:1

301:9,19 304:10

306:6 309:6,7,12

310:5

tolerance 32:15,16

65:20 126:14

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140:3,6 172:9,12

174:11 181:20

182:3 218:3,12

219:22 220:2

253:7 321:19,22

322:21 323:10

tolerances 32:17

119:5 132:5

133:19 139:12

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tolerancing 218:4

Tom 2:15,21

tomorrow 87:10

118:8 140:19

190:20 238:8

239:12,15

302:14 305:22

309:9 310:17

314:5,11 320:9

ton 15:6 42:20,22

258:11 261:22

262:8,18 268:8

269:13 270:14

tonight 308:19,21

320:15

tons 175:17 273:22

278:12

tools 247:11

272:19

top 46:6,8 48:18

89:16 119:15,18

166:5 205:17

topic 60:14 69:2

116:17 132:22

154:17 218:18

topics 134:3

toss 218:2 283:17

total 215:19

236:17 237:13

totally 181:16

touch 247:7

321:14

tow 281:16,17

toward 24:8

towards 13:14

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transcript 325:6

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326:1,7

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326:12

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translation 238:5

transparency

281:6

transparent

149:7,10,20,21

150:14

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transportation

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151:10

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258:13

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153:1 250:11

274:15 277:19

317:22 319:21

triggered 16:18

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trillion 82:2

trip 39:8

tripled 184:7

trouble 7:6 75:14

136:8 170:19

259:14

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trucked 37:21

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186:20 227:21

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326:7

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274:7

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trying 9:4 24:6

26:9 42:10,11

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51:10 56:14
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318:16 319:17

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tube 252:10 254:9

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21:21 22:14,17

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57:18 59:1,2

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76:17 84:21 85:3

86:17 98:15,16

101:11 113:1

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126:16 131:13

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135:7 150:4

163:2 169:11

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215:19 227:4

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277:16 294:14

299:16 304:7

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understandable

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understands 42:7

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understood

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63:12,14,22

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35:15 36:12,14

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