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★42–170 2008

MEMBER BRIEFING ON VOTING IN THE HOUSE 

OF REPRESENTATIVES—THE ROSTRUM AND 

THE ELECTRONIC VOTING SYSTEM: A 

‘‘WALKTHROUGH’’ BY THE CLERK OF THE 

HOUSE LORRAINE C. MILLER 

HEARING 

BEFORE THE

SELECT COMMITTEE TO INVESTIGATE 

THE VOTING IRREGULARITIES OF 

AUGUST 2, 2007 

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, 

ONE HUNDRED TENTH CONGRESS 

FIRST SESSION

OCTOBER 18, 2007 

WASHINGTON, DC 

( 


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SELECT COMMITTEE TO INVESTIGATE THE VOTING IRREGULARITIES OF 

AUGUST 2, 2007 

WILLIAM D. DELAHUNT, Massachusetts, Chairman 

ARTUR DAVIS, Alabama 

STEPHANIE HERSETH SANDLIN, South 

Dakota 

MIKE PENCE, Indiana, Ranking Member 

STEVEN C. LATOURETTE, Ohio 

KENNY C. HULSHOF, Missouri 


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MEMBER BRIEFING ON VOTING IN THE 

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES—THE ROSTRUM AND THE ELECTRONIC VOTING SYSTEM: A ‘‘WALKTHROUGH’’ BY THE CLERK OF 

THE HOUSE LORRAINE C. MILLER 

THURSDAY, OCTOBER 18, 2007 

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, SELECT COMMITTEE TO INVESTIGATE THE VOTING

IRREGULARITIES OF AUGUST 2, 2007, 

Washington, DC. 

The committee met, pursuant to call, at 8:05 a.m., in the House 

Chamber, The Capitol, Hon. William D. Delahunt (chairman of the 

committee) presiding. 

Present: Representatives Delahunt, Davis, Herseth-Sandlin, 

Pence, LaTourette and Hulshof. 

Ms. MILLER. Good morning. Let me just tell you what our agenda 

is today. What we want to do is give you, the select committee, a 

slow walk through a typical vote so that you will be able to see how 

we actually execute a vote on your behalf. 

Then the first thing I want to do is we have—we took the liberty 

of getting probably the three most essential people in making sure 

your vote is accurately recorded. The first person, I think, that you 

need to know is the seated tally clerk. 

Today Mark is our seated tally clerk. So what does Mark do? He 

operates the EVS system, and he enters all the well votes. So he 

is essential. We can’t operate without having the seated tally clerk. 

Mr. LATOURETTE. Is Mark’s last name O’Sullivan? Is he the chief 

tally clerk? 

Ms. MILLER. Yes, Mark O’Sullivan, Mr. O’Sullivan. 

The second person who is really key to this process is the standing tally clerk. Today that position will be played by Frances 

Chiappardi, who is our Chief of Legislative Operations. 

What does Frances do? When Members come to the well, she will 

take the well cards; she writes the roll call number on the well 

card. She has to make sure that the Member’s name is legible, because a lot of times you will just hand it to her, and we have to 

make sure we are able to identify who it is. 

Then, she gives that well card vote to the seated tally clerk, who 

enters it into the EVS system, and then, at the conclusion of a vote, 

the standing tally clerk will then write out the tally and give it to 

the Parliamentarian, who then gives it to the presiding officer for 

announcement. 


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The other person that is really essential to this is the reading 

clerk. 

Where is Kristen? Hello, Kristen. 

Kristen reads all of the communications that the House receives, 

the messages, the motions, and the legislation. Then she inserts 

any amendments when we are carrying on legislative business. If 

someone has an amendment, it is Kristen’s responsibility to make 

sure it gets inserted properly. 

At the end of the vote, when the Chair calls it, when a Member 

changes a vote with less than 5 minutes left, then that is announced at the rostrum. 

So when we are in the final 5 minutes of a vote, if someone 

comes to the well and wants to change a vote, it is announced, ‘‘Mr. 

Pence, off aye, on no,’’ and that is our typical procedure. 

Mr. LATOURETTE. Is that because the voting stations are locked 

out of changes with 5 minutes left to go in a 15-minute vote? 

Ms. MILLER. Yes. 

What we are going to do now is try to go through a typical vote 

and just let you see how—I was amazed that so many Members 

didn’t know that we had a computer screen. There is a terminal 

here on the floor that we use to record your votes. 

The CHAIRMAN. Ms. Miller, in a 5-minute vote, as opposed to a 

15-minute vote, is there a lock, or is it just kept open? 

Ms. MILLER. A lock? 

The CHAIRMAN. A lock. In other words, to change a vote at that 

point in time, can it be accomplished through a voting card, or does 

it require a Member? 

Ms. MILLER. You can change it there at your voting station. Then 

once it is done, you will have to come to the well. 

So what typically happens, the presiding officer will give an 

announcement, and our distinguished Parliamentarian Mr. Sullivan—— 

Mr. SULLIVAN. Do you want me to start? 

Ms. MILLER. Yes. 

Mr. SULLIVAN. The trigger for Mark to open the vote so Members 

can record at the stations is when the Chair says, ‘‘The yeas and 

nays are ordered. Members will record their vote by electronic device.’’ Instead of having the Clerk call the roll of names, the Chair 

is invoking the computer. That is Mark’s cue to turn the system on. 

Mr. PENCE. Can I ask you a question, Lorraine? The Parliamentarian is talking about the practice of Members to record their 

votes by electronic device. The House rules, do they make reference 

to that kind of an announcement, or is it accurate that the House 

rules are silent on the electronic voting machine? 

Mr. SULLIVAN. They are not silent. The default system for a recorded vote is to direct the Clerk to call the roll of Members and 

have them respond by yelling yes or no. But the Chair has the discretion, whenever he or she wants, to invoke the electronic system 

instead. That, of course, is in more than 99 percent of the cases. 

The CHAIRMAN. But there is no specific mention of it. 

Mr. PENCE. Just for clarification, is there a specific reference to 

the electronic voting system in the House rules? 

Mr. SULLIVAN. Yes. 

Mr. PENCE. There is. 


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Mr. LATOURETTE. Is it in rule 20? 

Mr. SULLIVAN. Yes. 

The CHAIRMAN. Is it a lengthy rule? Could you summarize in 

part? 

Mr. SULLIVAN. It says in clause 1(b), for example—I think it is 

mentioned in more than one place, but in clause 1(b) of rule 20, it 

says, ‘‘If a Member requests a recorded vote, and that is supported 

by the requisite number, the vote should be taken by electronic device unless the Speaker invokes another procedure to record the 

votes provided in this rule.’’ 

The CHAIRMAN. That is sufficient. Thank you. 

Mr. PENCE. Do the rules give any further definition of the electronic device? Does it give any specificity about that relative to— 

I have been told in informal discussions that since 1977, the rules 

have not really discussed in any great detail the electronic voting 

system. 

Mr. SULLIVAN. The rules have not mentioned that there would be 

46 voting stations, that they respond to smart cards, or that they 

be linked to a wall display, or that they even be linked to a wall 

control. That is all nontextual. 

Mr. PENCE. Thank you. 

Ms. MILLER. The Parliamentarian, the presiding officer, has 

given us the preliminary to the cue, so, Mark, our next effort is to 

initiate a vote. He is going to do this slowly. 

Now, Mark has been watching the floor proceedings, and he 

knows that we have H.R. 2020 in consideration, which you guys 

have been talking about. We are simulating that this is the passage of H.R. 2020. 

You notice on the screen that means on passage it is the yeas 

and nays. Here are listed a lot of options. Let me turn around so 

I can see. It can say on passage, on agreeing to the amendment, 

on the motion to suspend the rules and pass, like we do on a suspension. 

So he has those options to choose from. So we know that we are 

on passage, and we would then be asking for the yeas and nays. 

So he has got his screen cued up. You are ready to go. 

He presses on ‘‘go,’’ and then it says, ‘‘Start this vote?’’ That is 

all done so quickly. Now, we are taking the time now, but this is 

done in very rapid succession. Start the vote, because the presiding 

officer has already said, ‘‘Members will record their votes by electronic device.’’ He will then click on ‘‘yes,’’ and that starts two 

things: The displays come up, and the clock starts. 

We are in a 15-minute vote. So your displays are up, the clock 

is running. 

Now, what he does now is he is going to go to a well vote, because right now all 46 of the voting stations are open, and he is 

going to—— 

Mr. DAVIS. How many voting stations are there? 

Ms. MILLER. There are 46 on the floor, 46. 

Ms. HERSETH-SANDLIN. Mark, could you go back, after you started the vote, that first screen came up again? 

Mr. O’SULLIVAN. Back to the primary. 

Ms. MILLER. This is our primary screen. 

Mr. GORE. Which is slide 1. 


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Ms. HERSETH-SANDLIN. As soon as you start the vote, this comes 

up, and then you hit ‘‘well voting.’’ 

Ms. MILLER. Yes. For the first 10 minutes you can go to any of 

the 46 voting stations and vote, and change your vote. After the 10 

minutes—he is waiting here, until Members start coming to the 

well. So what we would like to do is for Mr. Pence and Mr. 

Delahunt to go vote, if you wouldn’t mind. 

For Mr. Pence, watch the board and his name once he inserts his 

card, and he casts the vote. 

Mr. GORE. The display boards also show virtually immediately 

the 1. 

Ms. MILLER. So we have a ‘‘yes’’ and a ‘‘no.’’ The clock is still running. This is typically what happens, but there are so many of you 

that are voting, we are just doing this as an example. 

The CHAIRMAN. Madam Clerk, Mark is seeing exactly—this is 

just a secondary as opposed to the primary; that is the control, 

right? 

Mr. O’SULLIVAN. What you are seeing is what I am seeing. 

The CHAIRMAN. But you are controlling. 

Ms. MILLER. He is controlling it. 

The CHAIRMAN. That you would describe as—— 

Mr. O’SULLIVAN. Part of the primary menu. 

Ms. MILLER. But that is the control. 

The CHAIRMAN. But that is the control? 

Ms. MILLER. This is the control. That is the monitor here. 

The CHAIRMAN. Everything you are seeing on the floor, what the 

Majority and Minority see are the—— 

Ms. MILLER. Same thing. 

The CHAIRMAN. A reflection, an instantaneous reflection of the 

control, of the input? 

Ms. MILLER. Of the seated tally clerk, yes. 

Mr. PENCE. Point of clarification, if I may—no, no, Stephanie. 

Ms. HERSETH-SANDLIN. No, no, go ahead. 

Mr. PENCE. The question I had, is Mark’s position, is—— 

Ms. MILLER. He is the seated tally clerk. 

Mr. PENCE. My question, Madam Clerk, is the seated tally clerk 

involved in the transaction that takes place between a Member’s 

vote and an electronic device and the appearance of the vote on the 

wall on either board? 

Ms. HERSETH-SANDLIN. He is not doing anything for that first 10 

minutes, right? 

Ms. MILLER. No. As you vote at the voting station, he doesn’t 

make it appear there, it automatically does that. The system itself 

will place your vote. 

Mr. LATOURETTE. When does he enter the well cards that are 

changes at the end of the vote? If I have lost my card in the first 

5 minutes, does he do that now, or does it wait until the end? 

Ms. MILLER. No, he can do that now. He can put you in now, and 

it will be displayed. That is one of the things that we wanted to 

do. If one of you wanted to change your vote or someone came to 

the well to vote now—— 

Mr. HULSHOF. May I do that? 

Ms. MILLER. Sure. 

Mr. HULSHOF. I am sorry, Mr. Delahunt. 


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Ms. HERSETH-SANDLIN. That is the same thing. In the first 10 

minutes he just kind of sits back and waits. 

The CHAIRMAN. Actually, in the first 10 minutes—— 

Ms. HERSETH-SANDLIN. Unless someone goes up and they don’t 

have their card. 

Ms. MILLER. He is given the card—— 

The CHAIRMAN. If I may, Madam, because I know the stenographer—if we can just pose our questions and allow her to take 

them down, and the rest of us will go back to regular order, so to 

speak. 

Ms. MILLER. What typically happens, a Member will give the 

standing tally clerk a well card and immediately look up to see if 

the vote is posted. It does take the seated tally clerk a couple of 

seconds to enter it. Then it is electronically shown. So, Mr. 

Hulshof—— 

Mr. O’SULLIVAN. I will have to verify the screen. 

Ms. MILLER. Yes, he must verify every well card vote. Every vote 

must be verified, and then he accepts that, and there he is. That 

happens for every well card vote. It is verified, and then it is displayed. 

All right. Why don’t we have someone change their vote before 

the 5 minutes? 

You are free to—— 

The CHAIRMAN. I am going to change. 

Ms. MILLER. You want to do it at the well? You can do it at a 

voting station. 

The CHAIRMAN. I can’t, right? I will do it at the well. Let me ask 

as a matter of course, and I just wrote Delahunt down, that is sufficient for your purposes? 

Mr. O’SULLIVAN. We would know, but we would like to get the 

state, delegation and the district, particularly for the duplicate 

names. 

Ms. MILLER. Mark is going to enter—see. He does. Mr. Delahunt. 

Now, notice on the screen it says, ‘‘Vote, aye.’’ He was ‘‘no.’’ Now 

his vote is ‘‘aye.’’ He has to accept that, and then it changes on the 

board. 

The CHAIRMAN. Madam Clerk, the time that is involved, I presume there haven’t been any studies done, but what would be the 

estimate of—— 

Ms. MILLER. How long it takes? 

The CHAIRMAN. Right. Ten, fifteen seconds before you verify? 

Ms. MILLER. No. What he is saying, once you enter a vote in the 

system, and then it gets—— 

Mr. O’SULLIVAN. Ten seconds. 

Ms. MILLER. Remember—— 

The CHAIRMAN. This is a cue? 

Mr. O’SULLIVAN. Depending on how many cards I have, there 

may be a delay by the time I receive your card; it may be my tenth 

card, so it kind of clogs up. But once I get to your card, it is only 

a matter of a few seconds. 

Ms. MILLER. Ms. Herseth. 

Ms. HERSETH-SANDLIN. If Mark is given a number, if the cards 

are coming relatively quickly, Mark, do you enter each Member’s 

name, the vote, and verify each one separately; or with the columns 


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that we have here, could you take four or five cards, enter the 

names, put the vote in and not go to the next screen to verify all 

five? 

Mr. O’SULLIVAN. I have the option to do more than one. I could 

fill in the screen. 

Ms. MILLER. He could fill the entire screen there with well card 

votes, and then they would be verified in massive numbers. So he 

could do 10 at a time if he chose to. 

Mr. GORE. Almost to 5 minutes. 

Mr. PENCE. Madam Clerk, quickly, you have used the word 

‘‘verify’’ several times. Can you just give me 10 seconds on how he 

verifies the vote, who he verifies the vote with before he presses 

‘‘accept’’? 

Ms. MILLER. Mark. 

Mr. O’SULLIVAN. What I am verifying is I have—I am inputting 

the correct vote. So I have a green card, a yea vote for Mr. Hulshof. 

I am going to make sure that it says ‘‘Hulshof, yea.’’ So that is the 

verification. This card is matching the input. 

Mr. PENCE. Thank you. 

Ms. MILLER. We are approaching 5 minutes. Would someone— 

Mr. Pence, would you quickly change your vote? 

Mr. PENCE. Electronically? 

Ms. MILLER. Yes, sir. You have 36 seconds. Okay. You can see 

that he changed from green to red and that the summary boards 

also changed, okay? Now we are approaching a 5-minute mark. 

After 5 minutes, when you get to 5 minutes, you cannot change 

your vote at the voting stations. You have got to come to the well. 

Mr. Davis, would you come and vote at the well? 

Ms. Herseth, will you attempt to vote at the voting stations? 

Mr. O’SULLIVAN. She can vote, there is no change. 

Ms. MILLER. Okay, why? 

Ms. HERSETH-SANDLIN. Because I haven’t voted yet. 

Ms. MILLER. Okay. 

Ms. HERSETH-SANDLIN. This has happened to me before, if I vote 

‘‘yes,’’ and then I realize, oh, no, they switched the order, and I try 

to stick it back in and vote ‘‘no,’’ can I do that in 5 minutes? I will 

try to do that. 

Ms. MILLER. Okay. 

Where are you, Ms. Herseth? 

Ms. HERSETH-SANDLIN. I am up there—but then I say, oh, I want 

to vote ‘‘no,’’ it won’t let me. 

Ms. MILLER. Okay. You have to come to the well. 

Mr. O’SULLIVAN. Since Mr. Davis is a duplicate, this is normally 

how I would handle a duplicate name. 

The CHAIRMAN. Mark, can you speak a little louder? 

Mr. O’SULLIVAN. This is how I would handle Mr. Davis, when we 

have duplicate names. I generally put in the last name and then 

call up the list and choose the Member I am looking for. If I type 

in ‘‘Davis’’ in the system, I am going to get this list. 

Ms. MILLER. These are the listings of all the Davises that are 

current Members of the House and voting. 

Mr. O’SULLIVAN. I just pick, happens to be first one. So I say 

‘‘yea,’’ and then it pulls his name out into the verify screen, 

verifying this card. 


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Ms. MILLER. Okay. You verified it, you accept it. 

Mr. PENCE. Madam Clerk, it is my understanding as well that 

when someone does what Ms. Herseth-Sandlin just did, that the 

system will record both her vote and her attempt to change the 

vote on the electronic system; is that correct? 

Ms. MILLER. Yes, it will. Any time a Member inserts a card into 

the receptacle, it is recorded. There is a file that is created. 

Mr. PENCE. Even if the vote cannot be changed at that point, 

there is still an electronic record made of the attempt to change it. 

Ms. MILLER. Even if Members are just checking the vote to make 

sure. 

Ms. HERSETH-SANDLIN. Is there a distinction in the system if I 

had voted yes, took my card out, put my card in, but didn’t push 

any buttons, and the red light—the green light would brighten up? 

So what Mr. Pence is asking, if I tried to hit the red button, and 

it didn’t light up, that is—— 

Ms. MILLER. It will tell us. 

Ms. HERSETH-SANDLIN. It will tell you that I hit the red button? 

Ms. MILLER. It will tell you that you attempted to check or to 

change, yes. 

The CHAIRMAN. It distinguishes between checking and changing. 

Ms. MILLER. Or voting, Goldey, it distinguishes between checking 

and changes? 

Mr. VANSANT. It does. 

Ms. MILLER. It is a file that is created. 

Mr. DAVIS. Now, when we say there is a distinction between 

checking and changing, is it when you stick it in, and you attempt 

to do what you have already done, that is simply recorded for duplicative action? Actually, what is the distinction from checking 

and changing from the machine standpoint? 

Ms. MILLER. Goldey Vansant, who is our Chief of Computer Systems—Goldey, stand up. 

Mr. VANSANT. I didn’t quite hear. 

Mr. DAVIS. What is the distinction between checking and changing from a machine standpoint. You say a machine distinguishes 

between the two. What are you doing? 

Mr. VANSANT. If you verify what we are seeing actually, the 

transaction, we are seeing it hard in—under your name. If you 

have already voted, it indicates to us that it has lit the appropriate 

light on the station, and indicates that as a verified vote. When you 

take the card out, we now see an entry. Card out, the time is recorded at that point. 

If you are inside the 5-minute mark, you have inserted your card, 

and then you attempt to change your vote, we will see an entry in 

there that says, ‘‘Attempt to change vote.’’ If you take the card out, 

there will be another line entry that says, ‘‘Card out.’’ 

Ms. MILLER. It is very sophisticated. The transaction log, that is 

very interesting. A lot of times we will have Members to say, I attempted to vote, it didn’t take my vote. We always pull the transaction logs, and it will tell you what you have done and how many 

times you have tried to verify it. Sometimes you will see Members 

who just come back to a different voting station around the Chamber and attempt to verify their votes. 


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Mr. GORE. I will just add that transaction log, you all will have 

a copy of it. We will be able to go back and see the second, exact 

second, in which that was done. 

Ms. MILLER. Yes, it even times it. It is pretty precise. 

Mr. PENCE. Madam Clerk, I guess under FOIA, all of this would 

be public documents, but how public, how accessible to the public 

is that electronic record at this point in time? 

Ms. MILLER. I think we have exempted ourselves. 

Yes, we are exempt employees, but we don’t—— 

Mr. LATOURETTE. Right. You may not have voted for it. 

Ms. MILLER. Right. We are exempt of FOIA. We, on occasion, will 

share it with a Member; never with the press, never, ever, ever, because we see that as your personal vote. It is not to be disclosed. 

The CHAIRMAN. This is a bit of a digression, but does that include all congressional records? 

Ms. MILLER. We are exempt from FOIA. 

Mr. LATOURETTE. So carry on. 

The CHAIRMAN. That was the first good question I have asked 

today. 

Ms. MILLER. Needless to say, we have lots of press inquiries asking for those records. We just don’t do it unless you guys want us 

to do it. 

Mr. LATOURETTE. The way the new Majority is going, they might 

want to do it. 

Ms. MILLER. Okay. We are fine now. So we have 4–1. There is 

obviously one Member who hasn’t voted, correct? 

Mr. O’SULLIVAN. Ms. Herseth-Sandlin, on the vote, after the 5 

minutes, when the clock hits 5 minutes, she submitted this red 

change card, which I am going to enter and put it on the list. I am 

going to put it on the vote. So here is the change. 

Ms. MILLER. Mark, we are about to close the vote. 

John, what would you say, what would the presiding officer be 

saying as we get down to the end of a vote? 

Mr. SULLIVAN. There are two phases. The first phase is marked 

by the Chair’s utterance, ‘‘Have all Members voted,’’ or, ‘‘Does any 

other Member desire to vote?’’ 

The second phase is marked by the Chair’s utterance, ‘‘Does any 

Member wish to change their vote?’’ 

When the Chair makes that second utterance, it triggers the activity between the tally clerk and the reading clerk to announce 

those changes that occurred after the 5 minutes. 

The changes that occurred by card at the stations are not read 

by the reading clerk, and the changes effected in the first 10 minutes of the vote by ballot card in the well likewise are not read. 

So the only one of the changes of the transactions this morning 

that would be read so far would be Ms. Herseth-Sandlin, which is 

after the 5-minute lockout by card in the well. 

So when the Chair says, ‘‘Have all Members voted,’’ that—usually wait a decent interval after that because that usually reminds 

somebody that they haven’t voted yet, and then there is a little bit 

of activity. 

Then when the Chair thinks it is really going to close, she will 

ask, ‘‘Does any Member wish to change a vote,’’ and that triggers 

the activity with Mark and Kristen. 


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Ms. MILLER. Then Kristen will read. 

Ms. BRANDON. A new piece of paper with all the lists of off ‘‘aye,’’ 

on ‘‘no’’; and off ‘‘no,’’ on ‘‘aye’’; and off ‘‘present,’’ on ‘‘no’’; and off 

‘‘present,’’ on ‘‘aye.’’ 

Ms. MILLER. All this is going on very rapidly, the well cards that 

are after the 5-minute vote, and we are scrambling. We are making 

sure those are listed, and then the reading clerk will announce the 

Ms. Herseth-Sandlin vote, everybody that is at the end of the 5- 

minute vote. 

I see a query on your face, Mr. Hulshof. 

Mr. HULSHOF. Only I assume this would be a printout that Mark 

would trigger, or is this handwritten as far as the names off ‘‘aye,’’ 

on ‘‘no’’? 

Ms. MILLER. It is handwritten. We won’t have time for a printout. Remember, this is the last 5 minutes of the vote. The other 

day I sat here, because I couldn’t believe it myself. What they typically do is all the well cards then are alphabetized quickly, and if 

we have the time between the actual announcing of the results of 

a vote, the seated tally clerk will call downstairs and say, here are 

the well votes. These are the names I have that are voted at the 

well. 

For verification, we, not only on the screen, but we try to doublecheck to make sure that—double, triple-check to make sure we 

have accurate accounting of the well card votes. 

So he is calling down trying to make sure that our leg ops has 

the same list. 

The CHAIRMAN. When you say ‘‘calling down,’’ Lorraine, what do 

you mean by ‘‘calling down’’? 

Ms. MILLER. Oh, yes. He sits there with a phone. There is a 

phone right there. 

The CHAIRMAN. Who is he calling? 

Ms. MILLER. He is calling a leg ops person downstairs in HT–13. 

Mr. DAVIS. What would happen if there was a discrepancy detected after the phone call? What would happen if there was a discrepancy? 

Mr. O’SULLIVAN. That would be after the tally is announced, so 

that is a correction to the vote. And if I have these cards and entered one wrong through the whole process to close the vote, the 

tally is announced, and then when I check with my staff, check 

downstairs, they print out a list of what the EVS says. The cards 

I put in, I read these cards against that list, and they don’t match, 

and one is wrong, then I have to inform the Parliamentarian and 

then start correcting the tally to the various people that need to 

be informed, and inform the presiding officer. 

Mr. DAVIS. What happens if a discrepancy is detected after a vote 

is announced? You just described a scenario that happens before a 

vote is announced. What if it happens after a vote is announced? 

Mr. O’SULLIVAN. I will describe the vote a little bit. During a 

vote we would like to check these cards several times. So during 

the vote, as I get a chance, what I do is I hit this. You see on the 

screen, you get this well vote icon. This is going to tell me all the 

Members I have entered. 


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What I do is I take my cards and run it, proof it against this list. 

Hopefully they match, but if, for example, they don’t, this is the 

point where I can correct it before the vote is final. 

The CHAIRMAN. How frequently does that occur? 

Mr. O’SULLIVAN. Not that often. 

The CHAIRMAN. In the course of 1,000 roll calls. 

Mr. O’SULLIVAN. Over 1,000? A handful. The error rate is pretty 

small. 

The CHAIRMAN. As you are entering the votes manually, you are 

also keeping a manual record. You are writing down on your sheet? 

Mr. O’SULLIVAN. Just only the Members that change, submitted 

a card to change their vote. 

Ms. MILLER. After the 5 minutes. 

The CHAIRMAN. But you are keeping this record on this sheet? 

Mr. O’SULLIVAN. During the last 5 minutes. 

Ms. MILLER. Only the last 5 minutes. 

Mr. O’SULLIVAN. Once the Clerk reads that sheet, that sheet is 

given to the official reporters, and then any further changes are 

just verbally read by the reading clerk, and the official reporter 

picks it up that way. 

The CHAIRMAN. Say that again, Mark? 

Mr. O’SULLIVAN. Once the reading clerk reads that list, that list 

is submitted to the official reporter. Any further changes that occur 

are handled—as I enter them, the reading clerk calls them up, and 

the official reporter picks it up. 

The CHAIRMAN. They are not recorded then on this? 

Mr. O’SULLIVAN. Not on that sheet. 

The CHAIRMAN. That is just a verbal communication between 

you, the sitting clerk and the reading clerk. 

Ms. MILLER. Yes, sir. 

Mr. HULSHOF. In fact, I think all of us probably have been more 

attentive to you since we have come together as a committee. I 

know you haven’t noticed us watching you. 

The CHAIRMAN. We are watching you closely, Mark. 

Mr. HULSHOF. But on that scenario, Mr. Delahunt suggested, 

after the reporter gets the official list, that actually the reading 

clerk is witnessing the Member rushing up to the well, grabbing 

the red card. 

So, obviously, recognizing the Member, and often it is the same 

Member or group of Members that are running behind. So it is not 

as if she is just relying upon your word; she is watching this scenario unfold, correct? 

Mr. O’SULLIVAN. Right. Not every Member who is coming to the 

well is changing. They are also submitting initial votes, particularly late in the vote. 

The CHAIRMAN. Those, again, are not recorded on this sheet? 

Mr. O’SULLIVAN. No. They would be called off, but the reading 

clerk would not say, ‘‘Off ‘aye,’ on ‘no.’ ’’ They would just say—— 

Ms. MILLER. Mr. Pence votes ‘‘aye.’’ 

The CHAIRMAN. You are observing this. Particularly in, you 

know, in a vote of consequence, you are watching, you are observing. Kristen, are you watching and observing as well, or are you 

just taking your cue from Mark? 


smartinez on PROD1PC64 with HEARING
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Ms. BRANDON. No, I watch here. I watch Frances, I watch who 

is filling the card, I watch what Mark does. I watch the computer 

screen as well, especially for changes. 

How do I know it is a change or just an initial vote? That is why 

I have to look on here, and Mark will give me a cue as what to 

say, and I will verify that through the computer screen. 

Ms. MILLER. There is a lot of coordination and contact going on 

between the Parliamentarian, the tally clerks both standing and 

seated, and the reading clerk. That is why they all have to be in 

sync. 

Yes, Mr. LaTourette. 

Mr. LATOURETTE. After the time is expired then and the presiding officer asks do any Members wish to change their vote, do 

you do anything to lock out the station so the only way they can 

vote is to come to the well for that initial vote? Then what do you 

do? 

Mr. O’SULLIVAN. There is an icon here, bottom left, ‘‘Close vote 

stations.’’ 

Ms. MILLER. Do you see it? You are on the bottom there, on the 

left. 

Mr. O’SULLIVAN. When the Speaker asks for changes, and those 

changes are all announced, and it is apparent that no other Members are trying to enter the Chamber and vote initially, that is 

when I will get the ‘‘Close vote stations,’’ and down here on the bottom right, it just confirms to me that the voting stations are closed. 

Ms. MILLER. You see on the bottom right it says, ‘‘Voting stations 

are closed.’’ 

Mr. O’SULLIVAN. To allow as many Members who have their 

badges to vote out on the voting station instead of forcing them to 

come to the well. 

Mr. LATOURETTE. Is that discretionary with you, as opposed to 

what you see going on? 

Mr. O’SULLIVAN. It is a little bit of a judgment call, but it is after 

the point where the changes have been announced. 

Mr. LATOURETTE. But you make the judgment as the seated tally 

clerk. 

Ms. MILLER. Half the time they will turn to the presiding officer 

and say, ‘‘Do you want the Member to vote?’’ That is where the discretion really comes from the presiding officer. 

Mr. O’SULLIVAN. The Parliamentarian, the presiding officer. 

Ms. MILLER. Mr. Hulshof. 

Mr. HULSHOF. Is that a reversible decision, or once you click the 

‘‘Close vote station,’’ and we see, in fact, ‘‘Vote stations are closed,’’ 

can you undo that entry? 

Mr. O’SULLIVAN. Yes. 

Ms. MILLER. Yes, because there can be 20 Members, 15 Members 

that all of a sudden rush to the floor. Usually there is a coordination with the Parliamentarian. 

Mr. SULLIVAN. If, under the circumstances, it is more efficient to 

reopen the stations because some meeting just broke up and a 

dozen Members walked in, we would suggest that Mark reopen the 

stations. 

Mr. DAVIS. Let me follow up on that. The whole decision-making 

around closing the vote station, is that due to a particular rule or 


smartinez on PROD1PC64 with HEARING
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to a particular textual rule, or is that the custom and practice on 

the part of those of you who sit in these positions? 

Mr. SULLIVAN. Custom and practice. Even, I believe, it is correct 

to say that the timing, linking the closing of the stations to the 

reading and the changes, that is just the way the protocol developed. It is not textual in the black letter of the rules. 

Mr. DAVIS. So when you make the decision to hit ‘‘Close vote station,’’ that is your subjective judgment that there are no Members 

in the process of changing votes, and that the Chair is about to call 

the vote. 

Mr. O’SULLIVAN. In practice, we close the vote station almost all 

the time as soon as the reading clerk reads the changes. 

Ms. MILLER. That is typical. 

Mr. O’SULLIVAN. That is the end of the vote. 

Mr. DAVIS. Now, what about the scenario that we see probably 

four or five times a year when a vote that has been opened for a 

period of time, the clock is at zero, but in real time 10 minutes has 

elapsed, 20 minutes has elapsed, and it is obviously uncertain 

when the vote is going to be called, and it is probably uncertain 

whether any Members might change votes. Can you speak to the 

custom and practice in that scenario? 

Mr. O’SULLIVAN. The voting stations would be left open until—— 

Ms. MILLER. Until the Chair tells us that the vote is going to be 

closed, yes, until we get a signal from the presiding officer. We rely 

upon the presiding officer to tell us what you are going to do, what 

you want us to do. 

Mr. DAVIS. Even if the reading clerk has read the list of off ‘‘aye,’’ 

on ‘‘no,’’ the list of well votes, if there is a scenario in which a number of minutes have elapsed from real time, and it is uncertain 

when the vote is going to be called technically, can you leave the 

vote stations open, or would it be in your discretion to close them? 

Mr. O’SULLIVAN. I think generally we would leave them open. If 

we were told that the vote was going to be kept open, we would 

normally—— 

Mr. DAVIS. If you were told the vote was going to be kept open, 

who, in custom and practice, would be telling you that? 

Mr. O’SULLIVAN. Probably the Parliamentarian. We would have 

some information that there were Members who were stuck in an 

elevator, or there were Members who just left the White House, a 

meeting with the President, some reason why the vote was being 

kept open on an indefinite basis. 

Mr. DAVIS. Let’s say hypothetically the clock had been at zero 

for, in real time, 10 minutes, and it was clear that there were 

Members milling around the well. The vote was tied, or the vote— 

let’s take that the vote was tied. There were Members moving 

around the well. At that point, as the Parliamentarian, would you 

receive an instruction from the Speaker, or would you be making 

your own subjective judgment at that point as to when to close the 

vote stations? 

Mr. SULLIVAN. In the absence of any instructions from anybody 

else, if we perceived that all Members were done voting, regardless 

if they were milling about, we would suggest to the presiding officer that he proceed to close the vote. 


smartinez on PROD1PC64 with HEARING
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If there were some—you know, if the leadership told us, ‘‘We are 

waiting for a meeting to break up in the Rayburn Building,’’ then 

we would tell the presiding officer, ‘‘They would like you to just 

bide your time. There is a meeting about to break up.’’ 

Mr. DAVIS. The last question I would ask, again, the hypothetical 

is that the vote is tied, say, 212–212. In that instance, trying to get 

a sense of how the Parliamentarian would assess that kind of situation, and what factors would guide an instruction to close the vote 

station? 

Mr. SULLIVAN. If it appeared that all Members had voted, and 

that was just where the chips fell, we would tell the presiding officer to announce the vote, and whatever the proposition was had 

failed upon a tie vote. 

Mr. DAVIS. But it would be up to the presiding officer whether 

or not to follow your statement? 

Ms. MILLER. Yes. 

The CHAIRMAN. Yes. It is not an instruction, it is a recommendation. 

Mr. SULLIVAN. If the presiding officer thought there were still 

Members about to vote or about to change their votes, he would tell 

us, ‘‘Oh, I don’t think that is the thing to do.’’ 

Ms. MILLER. Ms. Herseth had a question. 

Ms. HERSETH-SANDLIN. Well, when you said—I think you clarified, Mr. Sullivan, that you are getting information from leadership, so custom and practice has been for a number of years that 

it is not just the presiding officer that is kind of observing and engaging, it is Members of leadership that may be providing information to the Parliamentarian that is relevant to when to close the 

vote. 

Mr. SULLIVAN. There are periodic reports from either whip’s organization or either leadership table about Members being caught 

in some kind of a security situation at the south door, or Members 

being in an elevator, or a meeting going on, then we feed all of that 

data to the Chair. 

As a matter of course, on almost every vote the decision to begin 

the closing protocol, it is received from third parties. How to execute that protocol should be the presiding officer’s job and not a 

third party’s job. But the decision to embark on closing is a political judgment, I guess, by the leadership. 

Ms. MILLER. Mr. Pence. 

Mr. PENCE. I am just wondering about—it seems to me there is 

a distinction here between making the decision to close the vote 

stations and a decision to terminate the vote or complete the vote; 

is that correct? 

Mr. SULLIVAN. Yes. 

Mr. PENCE. We actually talk here, and this is very illuminating, 

but we are talking about the decision to close the voting stations, 

what you take into account at that point, and I am anxious to hear 

what other considerations factor into the decision to actually terminate the vote. 

Mr. SULLIVAN. On closing the voting stations, I don’t think we 

ever get any input from outside, because people aren’t that deep in 

the weeds. It is just the assessment of the people up here on the 

totality of the circumstances where the path of efficiency lies. 


smartinez on PROD1PC64 with HEARING
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If there are still Members trickling into the Chamber, it makes 

sense to leave the stations open. For those who have their card, it 

is a lot quicker. 

Mr. PENCE. So some of what the Parliamentarian was just reflecting on is associated with the decision to terminate. 

Mr. SULLIVAN. And announce a result, yes. 

Mr. PENCE. And announce a result. Thanks for that clarification. 

Mr. HULSHOF. I think we are about to move on then to really 

closing the vote. Before we do that, can you give us the differences 

between a 15-minute vote, which we have just experienced—what, 

if any, differences are there at the voting stations in that instance 

and a 5-minute vote? 

For instance, are the voting stations—my understanding is that 

one can actually change a vote even when it shows 0, 0, 0 on a 5- 

minute vote so long as you have not closed the voting stations 

there, correct? 

Mr. SULLIVAN. Yes, 5-minute vote, 2-minute vote. You are allowed to change throughout the whole vote until that icon is hit, 

and they are closed. 

The CHAIRMAN. But that doesn’t prevent—that, again, as Mr. 

Pence was speaking to—that doesn’t begin to terminate the vote? 

Mr. SULLIVAN. Not to that extent. 

The CHAIRMAN. I understand the focus on the machines, but the 

reality is that even when the stations are closed, the opportunity 

is to do it manually. 

Ms. MILLER. Yes. Come to the well. 

The CHAIRMAN. And continues until the announcement to terminate. 

Mr. PENCE. May I ask one push-away-from-the-table question for 

a second? The Parliamentarian’s role in all of this—I see a lot of 

moving parts. The Parliamentarian I see almost never moving, but 

is it proper to understand that the Parliamentarian is overseeing 

and orchestrating this process throughout? 

I guess I am asking, is the Parliamentarian calling the play, or 

is the Parliamentarian simply there in an advisory capacity? 

Ms. MILLER. I see it more as a coordinator. We have some integral parts of it. It is a coordination, I think. We rely upon the Parliamentarian because he and his folks know the rules. 

John, as I see it, we have got these moving parts, is he the captain? 

Mr. SULLIVAN. We are just here to help. We are the liaison between the seated tally clerk and the Chair. I would not say that 

we, in any sense, supervise the seated tally clerk, because none of 

us would be capable of doing the seated tally clerk’s job. 

Mr. PENCE. That is very helpful. 

Mr. SULLIVAN. The seated tally clerk is usually the coolest customer in the Chamber. 

Ms. MILLER. Yes, they really are. They can’t be interfered with 

by the commotion or Members talking or whatever is going on in 

the Chamber. They have got to be focused. 

Mr. PENCE. If I may, so the Clerk’s organization, people employed by you in your office, are administering and recording and 

processing the vote. 

Ms. MILLER. Yes. 


smartinez on PROD1PC64 with HEARING
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Mr. PENCE. The Parliamentarian acts as a liaison between the 

Clerk’s process and the Chair. 

Ms. MILLER. Very much so. 

Mr. PENCE. Fair? 

Mr. SULLIVAN. That is fair. 

Ms. MILLER. Yes. 

Mr. O’SULLIVAN. I will just say as we get to the end, I am waiting for cues from the Parliamentarian on what steps to proceed to. 

The CHAIRMAN. Because he is communicating with the presiding 

officer. 

Mr. SULLIVAN. Sometimes it is just that we have a better view 

than Mark does. He might not be able to see somebody on the west 

side of the well. 

Ms. MILLER. One of the things the reading clerk tries to do is anticipate your actions here, as you are winding down debate and figuring out what you are going to do, and if it is a motion to recommit, are you going to vote it, or are you going to voice it, those 

kinds of things. So we have our antennas out trying to figure out 

what procedure you are going to do. 

Mr. DAVIS. Let me ask just one quick question, Lorraine. I know 

we do have to get out of here by a certain time, so I will try to be 

very brief. 

We have talked about—we have used the word ‘‘protocol’’ several 

times. I guess by protocol we mean a custom and practice that is 

followed, that governs a given scenario. Is there any kind of a new 

protocol that sets in what I will call a prolonged vote situation? 

The vote is tied. It has been at zero for a while. 

Obviously the vote on the prescription drug bill 4 years ago is an 

example of a prolonged vote scenario. We have seen others where 

it is clear there is some deadlock, it is clear there is lobbying going 

on in the Chamber. Is there any protocol from the standpoint of the 

Parliamentarian or the tally clerk that settles in when we are in 

that kind of a prolonged vote count scenario? 

Ms. MILLER. For us, we wait. 

Mr. SULLIVAN. That is off protocol. Off the record, we would go 

to the leadership and say, ‘‘This vote should be closed. The motion 

to reconsider might be available. The right course is to close it.’’ 

And our advice is to accept it or not. 

Mr. DAVIS. Now, what would lead you to give advice one way or 

another? What would inform the Parliamentarian’s judgment as to 

what recommendation to make to the leadership? 

Mr. SULLIVAN. When the totality of the circumstances would indicate that all Members are done voting. 

Mr. DAVIS. But ultimately it would be if she characterized it a 

political judgment on the part of the leadership whether to continue lobbying or whether to continue the vote. 

Mr. SULLIVAN. In the case you mentioned, I think it was the 

judgment of the leadership, rather than losing the vote and entering a motion to reconsider to recoup that loss, it was better—the 

iron was hot, and something was bubbling, and they wanted to let 

it bubble to the top. 

Mr. DAVIS. That is an entirely permissible consideration as far 

as the Parliamentarian is concerned? 


smartinez on PROD1PC64 with HEARING
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Mr. SULLIVAN. We don’t feel like we can push the Speaker 

around, if that is what you mean. 

Mr. DAVIS. So it wouldn’t be the Parliamentarian’s call, it would 

be the leadership’s call in that scenario? 

Mr. SULLIVAN. We try to tell them what we think is the best 

course of action, and I am sure they give it due consideration. 

Mr. DAVIS. Okay. 

Ms. MILLER. We would be in a holding pattern. 

Mr. LATOURETTE. Not to be a nitpicker, but the rules have 

changed, and now it is my understanding that the rules of the 

House don’t permit you to keep the vote open for the sole purpose 

of affecting the outcome. 

Is that a correct reading of the new rule? 

Mr. SULLIVAN. Clause 1(b) of rule 20 does include language, I 

think, as far as parliamentary. I think it is hortatory. I think it 

would be enforced by collateral means, not on the spot. But you are 

right, it is there. 

Mr. PENCE. One more question. I think in response to Mr. Davis, 

you said when the totality of the circumstances indicated that all 

Members have voted, or—— 

Mr. SULLIVAN. They are done voting. Nobody is trying to change. 

Mr. PENCE. Members are done voting. Is it fair to say that the 

controlling factor with regard to your recommendation is whether 

or not all Members are done voting? 

Mr. SULLIVAN. I believe that is the central consideration. 

Mr. DAVIS. Would it also—just to follow up Mr. Pence’s point, 

would it also be relevant if it appeared Members were mulling or 

reconsidering their vote? 

Mr. SULLIVAN. I think so. 

Mr. DAVIS. If the leadership communicated to the Parliamentarian that Members were mulling their vote or reconsidering their 

vote, would that be the recommended factor to close the vote generally? 

Mr. SULLIVAN. In that circumstance, the leadership is really conveying the information to the presiding officer, perhaps through us. 

I don’t want to depict the Parliamentarian as being in charge of, 

you know, pushing Members of Congress around. 

The presiding officer is the one who rules on things with our advice. We never say that we rule on something. 

Mr. DAVIS. Just one last point on Mr. LaTourette’s observation 

about the rule change that was made earlier this year by the new 

Majority. The rule change, as I understand it, relates to the fact 

the vote can’t be kept open for the sole purpose of—what is the 

phrase? If I can actually capture the phrase—affecting the outcome. 

Does that exclude a scenario in which the Chair simply wanted 

to allow Members to have a chance to fully consider their decision, 

because I understand in one box you have got affecting the outcome. There is another box, it seems, in which Members may simply be reconsidering or reevaluating their vote. 

Is there anything in the new rules that says or precludes the possibility of a vote being kept open for the purpose of allowing Members to reconsider and reevaluate? Is that scenario addressed in the 

new rules? 


smartinez on PROD1PC64 with HEARING
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Mr. SULLIVAN. I don’t think the rule is that specific. 

Mr. DAVIS. That is a very judgmental, subjective analysis. 

Mr. SULLIVAN. We have advised the presiding officer on a couple 

of questions during Congress that the Chair has to mark a difference between achieving a result and reversing a result. 

Mr. DAVIS. Technically you could have Members on both sides 

who could be reevaluated, so it wouldn’t necessarily be if the result 

was changing, it would be that Members on both sides were possibly reconsidering, and ultimately the Chair was trying to effect 

the intent of the Members; is that right? 

Mr. SULLIVAN. That is right. I think the hardest case is the mulling, because that is a period of inactivity. Mulling is a very passive 

activity. 

The CHAIRMAN. To mull. 

Ms. MILLER. We are about to begin our set-up for session. We 

need to close this vote. I don’t want to cut off questions, but clearly 

they are going to be coming in here in a minute trying to set up 

for the session. 

Mark, let’s move to close the vote. Our vote stations are closed. 

Mr. O’SULLIVAN. If I can say one thing; for our purposes, when 

we close that vote station, that is to allow the tally clerk here to 

know that the tally on the board is not going to change from any 

action out there. So the vote station is closed. The only activity is 

going to occur here. 

So when I have then quoted the last vote card, and the vote station is closed, I can tell the tally clerk, okay, the tally is good to 

be recorded. Then I would go to this next screen, which is the terminate vote. 

The tally clerk at that point, when the Speaker said, ‘‘All time 

has expired,’’ she would write the tally. 

Ms. MILLER. Have we entered Ms. Herseth-Sandlin? 

Ms. BRANDON. Yes. 

Ms. MILLER. There are only five, six votes—— 

Mr. LATOURETTE. I decided I don’t want to vote on this. 

Ms. MILLER. You don’t want to vote? 

Mr. LATOURETTE. I don’t want to vote. 

Ms. MILLER. We wanted you to be the one that—we are ready 

to close this vote, and Mr. LaTourette comes down the aisle and 

says, ‘‘One more, one more.’’ 

Mr. GORE. Wait, wait, wait. 

Ms. MILLER. You are setting it to final. Have you set it to final? 

Mr. O’SULLIVAN. No. Do you want me to finalize it? 

Ms. MILLER. Yes, set it to final. 

Mr. O’SULLIVAN. The Speaker would have read the tally at this 

point, if it gets to final. The Chair might have begun to say on this 

question, ‘‘The yeas are three, the nays are’’—and then hold back 

because Mr. LaTourette wanted to enter. Do you want me to—— 

Mr. GORE. Wait just a second. 

Mr. O’SULLIVAN. Do you want me to finalize it? 

Ms. MILLER. Yes. 

Mr. O’SULLIVAN. Let me go back one step here. Let me go back 

to the terminate votes. Okay, when the Speaker starts to read the 

tally, I am going along with him with this box here, and then when 


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he says, ‘‘The motion to reconsider is laid on the table,’’ that is my 

cue to hit this icon that will put the word ‘‘final.’’ That is normal. 

Ms. MILLER. Do you see that? Did everybody understand that? 

You got that? Okay. 

Mr. O’SULLIVAN. At this point I guess we are in a scenario where 

a Member does arrive. 

Ms. MILLER. A Member does come. 

Mr. O’SULLIVAN. Presiding officer has said, ‘‘Record the Member.’’ 

Ms. MILLER. That one gets torn up, and another tally sheet is 

made. 

Mr. O’SULLIVAN. I can leave this green. I go to my well voting. 

Mr. PENCE. Ms. Miller, consistent with your testimony at our last 

hearing, the Chair is announcing on the basis of the tally sheet 

that is handed forward. 

Ms. MILLER. To the Parliamentarian, and then to the presiding 

officer. 

Mr. PENCE. But even if it has been announced, your testimony 

today is that at that point you can rip the tally sheet up and revise 

the vote. 

Mr. SULLIVAN. The Chair didn’t complete an unequivocal statement of the result. He can pull back and receive another slip. 

Mr. PENCE. What constitutes an unequivocal statement of the result? Is it the phrase, ‘‘A motion to reconsider was laid upon the 

table’’? 

Mr. SULLIVAN. Not necessarily. Sometimes the motion to reconsider is not applicable, so that can’t be a talisman. Again, it is totality of the circumstances. I can recall on occasion when a Chair 

uttered what in a transcript would look like an unequivocal statement of result, but it is just because the last syllable was coming 

out of his mouth just as he wanted to pull up because a Member 

was running down the aisle. That vote was taken because 700,000 

Americans wanted it to be recorded. 

The fact that the Chair—we rationalize that the Chair hadn’t put 

the period on the end of the sentence in that circumstance. But 

usually if the Chair says, ‘‘The amendment is adopted,’’ that is the 

unequivocal statement of the result. ‘‘The bill is passed.’’ 

When he utters that sentence, that should be the end of the vote. 

Ms. BRANDON. Mr. LaTourette. 

Mr. O’SULLIVAN. Votes ‘‘no.’’ 

Ms. BRANDON. Mr. LaTourette votes ‘‘no.’’ 

Mr. SULLIVAN. May I say something about the production of this 

slip? This is probably the most important quality assurance process 

step in the process, because when I get that slip, I know that the 

numbers that are written on that slip came from a voting system 

that was closed to further input at the time that those numbers 

were written down. 

So there is a communication between the seated tally clerk and 

the standing tally clerk, or Mark affirms to Frances, ‘‘I have closed 

the system to further input.’’ Frances waits for a beat so that the 

refresh cycle of the computer will give her a static rather than a 

dynamic result on the scoreboard, and she will be assured, then, 

that the numbers she is going to take off the wall and put on the 

paper won’t be impeached by an uptick a second later, because 

Mark has told her, ‘‘There aren’t going to be any upticks, the sysVerDate Aug 31 2005 01:15 Dec 23, 2008 Jkt 046059 PO 00000 Frm 00020 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\46059.XXX 46059

smartinez on PROD1PC64 with HEARING
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tem is closed. Nobody can input anything except me.’’ That is when 

Frances puts the numbers on the slip. That slip that I gave to the 

Chair, the Chair knows this is the product of a closed system. 

The CHAIRMAN. Until LaTourette runs in, you have got that in 

your hand. 

Mr. O’SULLIVAN. Hopefully Mr. LaTourette is noticed before the 

Chair reaches the period on that sentence, ‘‘The bill is passed,’’ or, 

in this case, ‘‘We lack a quorum.’’ In this case the bill would fail. 

Mr. DAVIS. Let me ask you one question about that, the exact 

scenario, Mr. LaTourette comes in. As the exact vote is being read, 

the whole judgment of finality, would it be the Parliamentarian’s 

judgment or the presiding officer’s judgment that governs finality? 

Mr. SULLIVAN. If it is judgment, we would advise him. 

Mr. DAVIS. The presiding officer. 

Mr. SULLIVAN. Yes. 

Mr. GORE. Let me just point, as we all saw, it said ‘‘final’’ now 

for some time as we have gone through this, but when Mr. 

LaTourette’s vote was added by Mark, the vote from 3–2 changed 

to 3–3, even though it said ‘‘final’’ the whole time. 

The CHAIRMAN. Just one quick question. You had mentioned earlier that communications between the leadership and the presiding 

officer, invariably does it go through you, or will, on occasion, leadership designate a member of the leadership team to communicate 

directly to the presiding officer? 

Mr. SULLIVAN. I think occasionally the presiding officer talks to 

people other than us. 

Ms. MILLER. Any other questions on that point? 

Ms. HERSETH-SANDLIN. One last question. Custom and practice 

on the quality assurance of the tally sheets, is there any reference 

to tally sheets or another phrase used to describe them in the 

rules? 

Mr. SULLIVAN. No. 

Ms. MILLER. The time to set the vote, the time to final, and then 

the vote has been set to final already. So that is another 

verification, and we are ready to go. Then laid upon the table, and 

we are done. 

If there are other questions that you have, what I really thought 

we would do is run through it, and then run through it again with 

questions. 

Mr. LATOURETTE. We took care of that for you. 

Ms. MILLER. We are at another place. 

Mr. PENCE. It is very helpful. 

Mr. Chairman, thank you for suggesting it. 

The CHAIRMAN. I think if at some point in time the committee 

considers, it could be helpful to have another session. 

Ms. MILLER. Yes, sir, not a problem. 

The CHAIRMAN. Along these lines, that we will be seeking you 

out. 

Mr. DAVIS. Mr. Chairman, one scheduling question. For the 

Members, given that we have lost a week because of Mrs. Davis’ 

funeral last week, is it the Chair’s intent that we convene next 

Thursday? 

The CHAIRMAN. I will look to the Members, and seeing everyone 

nodding, the answer is yes. 


smartinez on PROD1PC64 with HEARING
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Mr. LATOURETTE. Mr. Chairman, when Mr. Davis and I put together a timeline, my understanding would be the next hearing 

would be along the lines of collecting the precedence from the Parliamentarian. 

Also Mr. O’Sullivan was the chief tally clerk and was not in the 

building on the night of roll call 814; is that right? 

Ms. MILLER. No. 

Mr. LATOURETTE. You weren’t involved in that at all, and I think 

Mr. Davis and I contemplated about bringing him in to question. 

Mr. DAVIS. That is right. That would be next week. 

Ms. MILLER. Did this work, the monitoring? There was no way 

that six of you could stand behind Mark this morning. 

The CHAIRMAN. We thought it would be good if we could just—— 

Mr. HULSHOF. This is completely off the subject track here. My 

suggestion might be that the next session of Congress, the newlyelected Members, you should do this exercise for those Members, 

because if you have veteran Members that did not understand the 

process until this very—— 

The CHAIRMAN. Moment. 

Mr. HULSHOF. This has been very helpful, and I think maybe incoming Members should also gain an appreciation of it. 

Ms. MILLER. We will do it. 

The CHAIRMAN. That could very well be a recommendation. 

Ms. MILLER. Thank you very much. We appreciate it. 

[Whereupon, at 9:12 a.m., the select committee was adjourned.] 

Æ 


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