DOMESTIC MINOR SEX TRAFFICKING 

HEARING 

BEFORE THE

SUBCOMMITTEE ON CRIME, TERRORISM, 

AND HOMELAND SECURITY 

OF THE

COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY 

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 

ONE HUNDRED ELEVENTH CONGRESS 

SECOND SESSION 

SEPTEMBER 15, 2010 

Serial No. 111–146 

Printed for the use of the Committee on the Judiciary 

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DOMESTIC MINOR SEX TRAFFICKING 

HEARING 

BEFORE THE

SUBCOMMITTEE ON CRIME, TERRORISM, 

AND HOMELAND SECURITY 

OF THE

COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY 

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 

ONE HUNDRED ELEVENTH CONGRESS 

SECOND SESSION 

SEPTEMBER 15, 2010 

Serial No. 111–146 

Printed for the use of the Committee on the Judiciary 

( 

Available via the World Wide Web: http://judiciary.house.gov 

(II) 

COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY 

JOHN CONYERS, JR., Michigan, Chairman 

HOWARD L. BERMAN, California 

RICK BOUCHER, Virginia 

JERROLD NADLER, New York 

ROBERT C. ‘‘BOBBY’’ SCOTT, Virginia 

MELVIN L. WATT, North Carolina 

ZOE LOFGREN, California 

SHEILA JACKSON LEE, Texas 

MAXINE WATERS, California 

WILLIAM D. DELAHUNT, Massachusetts 

STEVE COHEN, Tennessee 

HENRY C. ‘‘HANK’’ JOHNSON, JR., 

Georgia 

PEDRO PIERLUISI, Puerto Rico 

MIKE QUIGLEY, Illinois 

JUDY CHU, California 

TED DEUTCH, Florida 

LUIS V. GUTIERREZ, Illinois 

TAMMY BALDWIN, Wisconsin 

CHARLES A. GONZALEZ, Texas 

ANTHONY D. WEINER, New York 

ADAM B. SCHIFF, California 

LINDA T. SA ́ NCHEZ, California 

DANIEL MAFFEI, New York 

JARED POLIS, Colorado 

LAMAR SMITH, Texas 

F. JAMES SENSENBRENNER, JR., 

Wisconsin 

HOWARD COBLE, North Carolina 

ELTON GALLEGLY, California 

BOB GOODLATTE, Virginia 

DANIEL E. LUNGREN, California 

DARRELL E. ISSA, California 

J. RANDY FORBES, Virginia 

STEVE KING, Iowa 

TRENT FRANKS, Arizona 

LOUIE GOHMERT, Texas 

JIM JORDAN, Ohio 

TED POE, Texas 

JASON CHAFFETZ, Utah 

TOM ROONEY, Florida 

GREGG HARPER, Mississippi 

PERRY APELBAUM, Staff Director and Chief Counsel 

SEAN MCLAUGHLIN, Minority Chief of Staff and General Counsel 

SUBCOMMITTEE ON CRIME, TERRORISM, AND HOMELAND SECURITY

ROBERT C. ‘‘BOBBY’’ SCOTT, Virginia, Chairman 

PEDRO PIERLUISI, Puerto Rico 

JERROLD NADLER, New York 

ZOE LOFGREN, California 

SHEILA JACKSON LEE, Texas 

MAXINE WATERS, California 

STEVE COHEN, Tennessee 

ANTHONY D. WEINER, New York 

MIKE QUIGLEY, Illinois 

TED DEUTCH, Florida 

LOUIE GOHMERT, Texas 

TED POE, Texas 

BOB GOODLATTE, Virginia 

DANIEL E. LUNGREN, California 

J. RANDY FORBES, Virginia 

TOM ROONEY, Florida 

BOBBY VASSAR, Chief Counsel 

CAROLINE LYNCH, Minority Counsel 

(III) 

C O N T E N T S 

SEPTEMBER 15, 2010 

Page 

OPENING STATEMENTS 

The Honorable Robert C. ‘‘Bobby’’ Scott, a Representative in Congress from 

the State of Virginia, and Chairman, Subcommittee on Crime, Terrorism, 

and Homeland Security ....................................................................................... 1 

The Honorable Louie Gohmert, a Representative in Congress from the State 

of Texas, and Ranking Member, Subcommittee on Crime, Terrorism, and 

Homeland Security ............................................................................................... 3 

The Honorable Mike Quigley, a Representative in Congress from the State 

of Illinois, and Member, Subcommittee on Crime, Terrorism, and Homeland 

Security ................................................................................................................. 4 

WITNESSES 

The Honorable Carolyn B. Maloney, a Representative in Congress from the 

State of California 

Oral Testimony ..................................................................................................... 5 

Prepared Statement ............................................................................................. 8 

The Honorable Jackie Speier, a Representative in Congress from the State 

of California 

Oral Testimony ..................................................................................................... 9 

Prepared Statement ............................................................................................. 12 

The Honorable Ted Poe, a Representative in Congress from the State of 

Texas 

Oral Testimony ..................................................................................................... 16 

Prepared Statement ............................................................................................. 18 

The Honorable Christopher H. Smith, a Representative in Congress from 

the State of New Jersey 

Oral Testimony ..................................................................................................... 21 

Prepared Statement ............................................................................................. 23 

The Honorable Linda Smith, a former Member of Congress 

Oral Testimony ..................................................................................................... 26 

Prepared Statement ............................................................................................. 115 

Ms. Francey Hakes, National Coordinator for Child Exploitation Prevention 

and Interdiction, United States Department of Justice, Washington, DC 

Oral Testimony ..................................................................................................... 126 

Prepared Statement ............................................................................................. 129 

Mr. Nicholas A. Sensley, Chief of Police, Truckee Police Department, Truckee, 

CA 

Oral Testimony ..................................................................................................... 133 

Prepared Statement ............................................................................................. 136 

Mr. Ernie Allen, President and CEO, National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, Alexandria, VA 

Oral Testimony ..................................................................................................... 137 

Prepared Statement ............................................................................................. 141 

Ms. Tina Frundt, Executive Director/Founder, Courtney’s House, Washington, 

DC 

Oral Testimony ..................................................................................................... 149 

Prepared Statement ............................................................................................. 151 

Page

IV 

Ms. Suzanna Tiapula, Director, National Center for Prosecution of Child 

Abuse, National District Attorneys Association, Alexandria, VA 

Oral Testimony ..................................................................................................... 155 

Prepared Statement ............................................................................................. 157 

Ms. Deborah Richardson, Chief Program Officer, Women’s Funding Network, 

San Francisco, CA 

Oral Testimony ..................................................................................................... 162 

Prepared Statement ............................................................................................. 164 

Mr. William ‘‘Clint’’ Powell, Director, Customer Service and Law Enforcement 

Relations, craigslist, Inc., San Francisco, CA 

Oral Testimony ..................................................................................................... 168 

Prepared Statement ............................................................................................. 170 

Ms. Elizabeth L. ‘‘Liz’’ McDougall, Partner, Perkins Coie, LLP, Seattle, WA 

Oral Testimony ..................................................................................................... 173 

Prepared Statement ............................................................................................. 177 

LETTERS, STATEMENTS, ETC., SUBMITTED FOR THE HEARING 

Material submitted by the Honorable Linda Smith, a former Member of 

Congress ................................................................................................................ 28 

Material submitted by the Honorable Robert C. ‘‘Bobby’’ Scott, a Representative in Congress from the State of Virginia, and Chairman, Subcommittee 

on Crime, Terrorism, and Homeland Security ................................................... 233 

APPENDIX 

Material Submitted for the Hearing Record .......................................................... 241 

OFFICIAL HEARING RECORD 

MATERIAL SUBMITTED FOR THE HEARING RECORD BUT NOT REPRINTED

Document entitled New York Prevalence Study of Commercially Sexually Exploited 

Children, Final Report, April 18, 2007. Prepared for the New York State Office 

of Children and Family Services by WESTAT. This document is available at the 

Subcommittee and can also be accessed at: 

http://www.ocfs.state.ny.us/main/reports/csec-2007.pdf 

(1) 

DOMESTIC MINOR SEX TRAFFICKING 

WEDNESDAY, SEPTEMBER 15, 2010 

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,

SUBCOMMITTEE ON CRIME, TERRORISM,

AND HOMELAND SECURITY

COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY, 

Washington, DC. 

The Subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 1 p.m., in room 

2141, Rayburn House Office Building, the Honorable Robert C. 

‘‘Bobby’’ Scott (Chairman of the Subcommittee) presiding. 

Present: Representatives Scott, Jackson Lee, Waters, Quigley, 

Gohmert, Poe, and Lungren. 

Staff Present: (Majority) Liliana Coronada, (Fellow) Federal Public Defender Office Detailee; Ron LeGrand, Counsel; Veronica 

Eligan, Professional Staff Member; (Minority) Caroline Lynch, 

Counsel; Art Baker, FBI Detailee; and Kelsey Whitlock, Legislative 

Assistant. 

Mr. SCOTT. The Subcommittee will now come to order, and I am 

pleased to welcome you to today’s hearing before the Subcommittee 

on Crime, Terrorism, and Homeland Security. The Committee is 

hearing domestic minor sex trafficking, and specifically H.R. 5575, 

the ‘‘Domestic Minor Sex Trafficking Deterrence and Victim Support Act of 2010.’’ 

Today we will hear testimony about the importance of this bill 

and the issues pertaining to a situation that is not only difficult to 

comprehend but also tragic: the domestic commercial sexual exploitation of children, many of them United States citizens. 

On June 23 of this year, the gentlelady from New York Ms. 

Maloney, and the gentleman from New Jersey, Mr. Smith, introduced H.R. 5557, which was then referred to the Judiciary Committee. The bill was introduced primarily to address the need for 

a comprehensive victim-centered approach to dealing with sex trafficking of children in the United States and providing shelter and 

rehabilitative services tailored to the needs of survivors of this particular crime. 

It also authorizes block grants to provide funding to implement 

improvements to the National Crime Information Center system to 

track information about missing and exploited children. Funding is 

also provided to law enforcement to increase and approve investigations to prosecutors to increase the number of cases brought to 

trial, and to service providers to ensure that access to shelters and 

services tailored to the needs of the victims of this particular crime 

make sure those services are available. 

2 

At the outset it is important that we understand this term, ‘‘domestic minor sex trafficking.’’ It is child sex slavery, child sex trafficking, prostitution of children, commercial sexual exploitation of 

children, and rape of a child. 

In its report, ‘‘National Report on Domestic Minor Sex Trafficking: America’s Prostituted Children,’’ the Shared Hope Organization explains that the term is used in an attempt to accurately 

and correctly define the nature of the offense, as well as the status 

of the minor as a victim rather than as a juvenile delinquent or a 

child prostitute or a bad kid or just plain criminal. We are talking 

about some of our most vulnerable victims of sex trafficking; that 

is, children in need of understanding and specialized treatment. 

We are also talking about training programs for law enforcement 

officials who encounter these children so that they are correctly 

identified and labeled as victims rather than criminals, and are 

able to receive needed social and protective services. 

Nationally, about 450,000 children run away from home each 

year. It is estimated that one out of three teens on the street will 

be lured into prostitution within 48 hours of leaving home. Statistically, this means that approximately 150,000 children are lured 

into prostitution each year, although there are some estimates as 

high as almost 300,000 children per year who have become sexual 

commodities. These child victims come from all races, ethnic 

groups, and religious backgrounds. They come from all socioeconomic classes, are males, females, transgender, and span all 

ages, usually beginning around 12 years of age. Many come from 

homes where they have been abused. 

One study concluded that 59 percent of minors arrested for prostitution in Las Vegas from 1994 to 2005 had been victims of sexual 

assault and molestation within the family; 74 percent had run 

away from home prior to arrest. They are runaways, homeless, 

throwaways, and children within the foster care system and child 

protective services, and they come by many, many different names 

such as those. 

During today’s hearing, Representatives Maloney and Smith will 

testify about the Domestic Minor Sex Trafficking Deterrence and 

Victim Support Act of 2010, which they introduced to specifically 

address the growing problem of commercialized sexual exploitation 

of children. 

We will also hear from other distinguished Members, as well as 

a former Congresswoman who has devoted her life after congressional service to helping victimized children in this country and 

abroad. 

A second panel will discuss what is happening to our children 

and how they are being victimized, the demand that fuels the domestic and minor sex trafficking, and ways in which the law enforcement community is not only addressing this demand, but also 

the lessons learned that are resulting in law enforcement communities’ progress in more accurately identifying and labeling these 

children as victims rather than criminals. 

We will hear from representatives of craigslist. And I am hoping 

that we will get clarification on whether the company’s latest decision to remove the ‘‘adult services’’ section is permanent. I am hoping that they will shed some light on their future plans. 

3 

At this time it should be clear that the ultimate issue is not just 

craigslist but, rather, the issue as to what extent the Internet generally plays in facilitating sex trafficking of minors. 

I would like to thank all of our witnesses in advance, as well as 

those organizations and individuals who have contributed their 

time, insights, and experience to our staff in preparation for this 

hearing. And most of all, I want to thank all of the people present 

for what you are doing to protect our children. 

It is now my pleasure to recognize the esteemed Ranking Member of the Subcommittee, my colleague from Texas, Judge Gohmert. 

Mr. GOHMERT. Thank you, Chairman. 

The sex trafficking of minors is an incorrigible crime that often 

exploits children that are already at high risk and have often already suffered physical and/or sexual abuse. I saw that myself as 

a judge, just as I know my colleague, the former judge, has also. 

The response to human trafficking within the United States is focused on providing assistance to victims of trafficking and on law 

enforcement efforts to arrest and prosecute traffickers. 

In June 2003, the FBI, in conjunction with the Department of 

Justice’s Child Exploitation and Obscenity Section in the National 

Center for Missing and Exploited Children, launched the Innocence 

Lost National Initiative. Their combined efforts are aimed at addressing the growing problem of domestic sex trafficking of children 

in the United States. The Innocence Lost National Initiative has 

resulted in approximately 38 task forces and working groups 

throughout the United States. These efforts bring Federal, State 

and local law enforcement agencies, including local prosecutors and 

social service providers, together for the coordination of cases and 

for training opportunities with the National Center for Missing and 

Exploited Children. 

Innocence Lost National Initiative cases usually begin as local 

operations targeting various locations, including online advertisements. The initial arrests are often for State or local charges, and 

it is later that the FBI and the Department of Justice review the 

case to see if the filing of Federal charges is appropriate. 

To be effective, the strategy should also aggressively address the 

demand side of the issue by incorporating effective law enforcement 

and prosecution initiatives that target those who conduct the actual trafficking and those that purchase commercial sex. 

The role of the State and local law enforcement authorities and 

the role of the State and local prosecutors cannot be underestimated. Prostitution and prostitution-related crimes are generally of 

a local nature and have historically been successfully investigated 

and prosecuted by local authorities. 

However, all law enforcement must address the interstate trafficking problem, which is certainly a Federal issue, but is just tossing kids in jail while ignoring the broader problem. While the goals 

of eliminating sex trafficking and assisting the State and local authorities in this effort are laudable and are very important, caution 

must be exercised so that there is not a gradual move toward federalization of local prostitution or local prostitution-related crimes. 

Caution must also be exercised to ensure that the relatively limited 

resources that are or potentially will be available to the victims of 

these crimes are spent on those that have truly been victimized. 

4 

For instance, I am concerned about a provision in H.R. 5575 

which authorizes grant money to treat so-called ‘‘johns’’ who engage 

in sex acts with adult prostitutes in lieu of prosecution. We may 

have people come to mind who have enough money themselves as 

johns to deal with their own side of that issue without taking 

money away from young victims of the trafficking. 

But this is a complicated problem. Finding a solution will not be 

easy. I believe that holding this hearing is a start to bringing together the experts that have experience in the different areas that 

make up this problem. And we are making strides toward a solution. 

So I welcome all of our witnesses today, appreciate your being 

here, appreciate your diligent efforts, committed efforts on behalf 

of the victims of this crime. And I do look forward to hearing your 

testimony. Thank you very much. I yield back. 

Mr. SCOTT. Thank you. 

I will ask other Members, Mr. Quigley, do you have a very brief 

statement? 

Mr. QUIGLEY. Yes. Just to accentuate what you are saying and 

draw it close to home. 

Mr. Chairman, I want to thank you for holding this hearing. But 

the offenses you describe, child sex slavery, child sex trafficking, 

prostitution of children and a rape of a child, among others, you 

would like to think or unfortunately imagine this would be in some 

Third World country, or at least not in nice neighborhoods. But I 

will tell you, you can go out into Lakeview, one of the nicest communities in the city of Chicago and the nicest areas that you would 

ever want to live in, you will see the vans out there of social service 

agencies trying to find the kids, runaway kids who are exposed to— 

who are vulnerable to these offenses right there in some of the 

nicest neighborhoods. 

So for us to imagine that the johns come from some evil place— 

unfortunately, they are from within. So the fault, dear Brutus, not 

lies within our stars but within ourselves. 

We have to look at the people who are committing these offenses 

and recognize that they are not far away. And I appreciate all 

those law enforcement agencies, social service agencies, and notfor-profits that try to help. 

Mr. SCOTT. Thank you. 

Other Members, without objection, will be able to enter statements into the record. 

We have two very distinguished panels with us today. Our first 

panel consists of four Members of Congress, as well as an esteemed 

former Member. 

The first witness is Congresswoman Carolyn B. Maloney, who 

represents the 14th District of New York. She is the first woman 

to represent New York’s 14th Congressional District. And in the 

111th Congress she became the first woman to chair the Joint Economic Committee, a joint House/Senate panel which examines and 

addresses the Nation’s most pressing economic issues. She is a senior Member of the House Financial Services Committee and the 

House Oversight and Government Reform Committee, and is cofounder of the House 9/11 Commission Caucus. She is a lead sponsor of H.R. 5575. 

5 

The second witness is Congresswoman Jackie Speier who represents the 12th District of California, first elected in April 2008 

in a special election, after serving 18 years with the California 

State legislature, where she authored over 300 bills signed into law 

by both Democratic and Republican Governors. She serves on three 

key Committees in the House: The Committee on Financial Services; the Committee on Oversight and Government Reform; and the 

Select Committee on Energy Independence and Global Warming. 

Our next witness will be Congressman Ted Poe, who was a prosecutor and judge in Houston for over 30 years before coming to 

Washington to represent the Second Congressional District of 

Texas. Serving as the Victims Rights Caucus founder and co-chair, 

Congressman Poe has been pivotal in passing legislation to safeguard our children, legislation such as the Child Predator Act that 

later became the AdamWalsh Child Safety Act. And also he ensures the needs and issues facing the victims of crime are equally 

represented. Congressman Poe is a Member of the House Judiciary 

Committee and the House Committee on Government Affairs. 

Representative Chris Smith is in his 15th term of the U.S. House 

of Representatives serving the Fourth Congressional District of 

New Jersey. He currently serves as the Ranking Republican on 

three congressional panels: The Foreign Affairs Subcommittee on 

Africa and Global Health; he is also the Ranking Member on the 

Commission on Security and Cooperation in Europe and the Congressional Executive Commission on China. He is the author of 

America’s three landmark anti-human trafficking laws, including 

the Trafficking Victims Protection Act of 2000, a comprehensive 

law designed to prevent modern-day slavery, protect victims, and 

enhance civil and criminal penalties against traffickers. He is the 

lead cosponsor of H.R. 5575. 

And finally, on this panel, former Congresswoman Linda Smith 

who represented Washington State’s Third Congressional District 

from 1994 to 1998. In the fall of 1998, while still a Member of Congress, she traveled to Mombai and visited one of the worst brothel 

districts in the world, where hopeless faces of desperate women 

and children forced into prostitution compelled her to found Shared 

Hope International. Through this organization she builds partnerships with local government groups to provide homes and shelters 

where women and children can live with no time limit. These villages of hope have a holistic approach to recovery, including education and job skills training. 

In 2007, Shared Hope International produced Demand, a report 

and documentary featuring investigative footage of world sex traffickers, pimps and buyers. That documentation found that startling 

numbers of American children are being sex trafficked within the 

U.S. borders. 

Mr. SCOTT. So we will begin at this time with Representative 

Maloney. 

TESTIMONY OF THE HONORABLE CAROLYN B. MALONEY, A 

REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA 

Mrs. MALONEY. Thank you. Thank you so much, Chairman Scott 

and Ranking Member Gohmert, for your leadership and for being 

6 

on the frontline, battling this extremely devastating problem that 

is found right here in the backyards of American cities. 

As co-chair of the Human Trafficking Caucus, I have been working in a bipartisan way on these issues with Representative Chris 

Smith and many others for many years, and today’s hearing is an 

important opportunity to educate people about the reality of the 

trade in human lives and work toward its elimination. 

Sex trafficking is the slavery of the 21st century. Human traf- ficking is a $10 billion industry worldwide. It is the third largest 

organized crime ring in history, preceded only by drugs and guns. 

But unlike drugs and guns which can be sold only once, the human 

body can be sold over and over and over again until it is destroyed. 

Too many people believe that child sex trafficking is a problem only 

in foreign countries, but experts estimate that a minimum of a 

100,000 children in the U.S., most of whom are American citizens, 

are exploited through commercial sex every year. 

Mr. Chairman, as you know, the End Demand for Sex Trafficking 

bill and the Wilberforce bill that we both worked on and helped author, required that the Justice Department come forward with a 

study on the problem in the United States. We still have not gotten 

that study. We know that 400,000, according to the State Department study, are trafficked internationally. But we have no numbers on the problem that is growing in the United States. 

Although it is hard to believe, the average age of first exploitation is young girls 12 to 13 years of age. These are our daughters, 

their schoolmates, their friends. And in fact this past June, in 

Brooklyn, in New York City, 8 people were indicted with charges 

that they forced girls as young as 15 into prostitution. These young 

women were recruited from local middle and high schools, public 

high schools. They were threatened with violence and kept out of 

contact with family and friends. 

Law enforcement in New York believes that many of the missing 

children that are reported are literally children that are stolen or 

coerced into sex trafficking. There are disturbing stories that come 

to my office about walking down the street and men coming up and 

trying to shove girls into cars, and they get away. But assume they 

were shoved in the car, then that girl would be one of the missing 

children that ran away. 

So I think this is a huge problem in our country, and one that 

needs to be addressed, and I thank you for looking at it with this 

important hearing. 

Despite the need, a Congressional Research Service report that 

I requested found that funding for specialized services in support 

for victims of domestic minor sex trafficking are extremely limited. 

In fact, there are studies that show that our country spends more 

on sex trafficking overseas and their victims than they do on the 

victims here in our own country. And their stories are horrifying. 

Throughout the country, organizations specializing in sex trafficking collectively have fewer than 50 beds to address the needs 

of we don’t know how many victims in our country, and this is totally unacceptable. After hearing from former victims, seasoned 

cops, and hard-hitting prosecutors about the horrors of domestic 

minor sex trafficking, I knew something had to be done. And working with Senator Ron Wyden and Representative Smith, we have 

7 

introduced H.R. 5575, the ‘‘Domestic Minor Sex Trafficking Deterrence and Victims Support Act of 2010.’’ 

This bill takes a multidisciplinary cooperative approach to shutting down child sex trafficking and offering rehab for its survivors. 

Through a series of block grants, the bill would provide shelter and 

care for victims, including specialized counseling, clothing, and 

other daily needs in order to keep victims from returning to the 

streets. It creates a comprehensive victim-centered approach to addressing the sex trafficking of minors. 

It also aims to ensure adequate resources for law enforcement 

and prosecutors to rescue victims and put pimps behind bars. Police across our country do not have the resources. Prosecutors do 

not have the resources. 

It also provides funding to implement improvements in the National Crime Information Center which tracks information about 

missing and exploited children with the goal of identifying those 

children who are at high risk for trafficking and provides a more 

protective response. 

Importantly, the legislation will strengthen deterrence and prevention programs aimed at potential buyers. It will focus exclusively on minors and victims, those under 18 years of age, increase 

the share of funding available for shelters. Lack of appropriate 

shelters often force law enforcement to send victims to juvenile detention facilities, where there is no access to appropriate services, 

or releasing them, knowing that they will end up back in the hands 

of their pimps. 

In July, the Human Trafficking Caucus, along with the Victims 

Rights Caucus, hosted a briefing with the National Center for 

Missing and Exploited Children, and I understand Ernie Allen is 

testifying today, and addressed the shift of sexual exploitation from 

the streets to craigslist and other online venues where children are 

marketed for sex. 

The Internet has changed the way human trafficking and sex 

slavery operates. But in a showing of leadership, craigslist announced that it is shutting down its adult services section from its 

Web site in the United States. 

I look toward to hearing from both Ernie Allen and representatives from craigslist as we work together to eradicate this violence 

and protect our most vulnerable children. In particular, I hope we 

will hear from craigslist today that they will be shutting down the 

erotic pages in the more than 250 cities that still feature this section. We can no longer ignore that children in our country are 

being so horrifically exploited for economic gain. We have a moral 

obligation to help the neglected victims of sex trafficking and to 

crack down on their abusers. 

I thank you very much for this opportunity and for your studied 

attention to this. And I know from past experience, when you get 

involved, things happen. So I thank you, Mr. Chairman and Ranking Member Gohmert. 

Mr. SCOTT. Thank you very much. 

[The prepared statement of Ms. Maloney follows:] 

8 

PREPARED STATEMENT OF THE HONORABLE CAROLYN B. MALONEY, 

A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF NEW YORK


CBM-1.eps
9 

Mr. SCOTT. Representative Jackie Speier. 

TESTIMONY OF THE HONORABLE JACKIE SPEIER, A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA 

Ms. SPEIER. Mr. Chairman, thank you for holding this hearing. 

Ranking Member Gohmert, thank you as well, and for Members for 

participating. 

This is a human tragedy, a national tragedy. Up to 300,000 children in our country are enslaved sexually. The number ranks anyVerDate Aug 31 2005 11:45 Jan 12, 2011 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00015 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6601 H:\WORK\CRIME\091510\58250.000 HJUD1 PsN: DOUGA

CBM-2.eps
10 

where from 100,000 to 300,000. Over the past 5 months I have immersed myself in this issue. I have talked to local DAs. I have 

talked to the U.S. Attorney. I have talked to the one FBI agent, 

one FBI agent in the entire Bay area who has responsibility over 

this issue. I have talked to the CEO of craigslist. I have talked to 

the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, and I 

have talked to many victims. 

One victim, when I asked, How many times were you forced to 

do this a day, said, A minimum of 10, a maximum of 15 times a 

day. She was 17 years of age. So to put it very simply, Houston, 

we have a problem. 

It is not just in Houston. It is in Atlanta. It is in San Francisco, 

it is in Oakland, it is in New York. It is across this country, and 

we are not addressing the issue. We have quite literally taken our 

eyes off the ball. 

There are reasons for this perfect storm. First, the Internet. Before the Internet, those who wanted to purchase sex with underage 

children had to venture outside of their homes, subjecting themselves to potential arrest and public stigma. Today, perpetrators 

hide behind their personal computers and have a child at their 

doorstep with a click of a button. Between 2004 and 2008, child sex 

trafficking complaints originating from the Internet actually grew 

by 1,000 percent. And that is just the number of complaints, not 

the total volume. In fact, estimates are that on craigslist alone, 

there are more than 3.2 million posts on the adult services section 

a year. Now, this section has been taken down very recently, but 

just to give you an appreciation of how widespread this is. 

Further, Web sites are literally immune from being held liable 

for these crimes. In an effort to spark innovation, Congress passed 

the Communications Decency Act in 1996. Today, Web sites escape 

liability when an ad on their site results in child prostitution, rape, 

or even death. 

I am pleased to see that a representative of craigslist is here 

today. It is in my district. The founder is a constituent, so I recognize full well what I am taking on here. Thinly disguised ads for 

sex on craigslist receive three times as many responses as ads 

placed on any other sites. So when craigslist says, well, Look to 

these other sites, remember that they have been the 800-pound gorilla in this industry of sex trafficking of children. Recent reports 

have speculated that the ads that previously appeared on the adult 

services section will migrate to other portions of the site. Let the 

company not forget that they control the activities of their site. If 

they are truly committed to this issue, they will exercise all due 

diligence that this issue commands. 

That said, craigslist is certainly not the lone wolf. The activity 

taking place on myredbook.com, eros.com, and backpage is equally 

as horrific. These sites are facilitating crimes, and we must consider an effective response within the confines of the First Amendment. 

Second, in an era of competing priorities, child sex trafficking 

has, in effect, been decriminalized. You know, we pass tough laws, 

and then they sit on the shelves. Even though the Trafficking Victims Protection Act imposes a lifetime sentence on those convicted 

11 

of trafficking, it is rarely used in prosecutions. We should all ask 

the question, why is this? 

During a 7-year period, 60 percent of child sexual exploitation 

cases presented to the U.S. Attorneys Office, 60 percent, have been 

declined prosecution. Meanwhile, in contrast, just 15 percent of 

drug trafficking and 26 percent of weapon charges were declined. 

Why the disparity? Our priorities are clearly out of balance and 

perpetrators are taking full advantage. In fact, a pimp selling just 

four children can earn over $600,000 a year. Today, we live in a 

country where a person is more likely to go to jail to serve time 

for selling marijuana than for selling a child in sex. 

In the San Francisco Bay area, where my district is located as 

I mentioned earlier, only one FBI agent is assigned to work with 

local law enforcement and the U.S. Attorneys Office in the name 

of curtailing sex trafficking. Further, the inability to bring trafficking to justice is directly tied to inadequate victims’ services. 

Girls who are rescued from prostitution typically come from abusive family situations. In fact, between 60 and 90 percent have experienced physical and/or sexual abuse. Victims will rarely report 

the identity of his or her trafficker because they fear retaliation or 

they simply are dependent on their pimp for simple survival. These 

children have been traumatized. They have been brainwashed. 

They have been abandoned, and they need specialized services and 

resources for successful recovery. 

It is a travesty that only five residential facilities specific to this 

population exist across this country. Congresswoman Maloney’s bill 

is important, but her bill should be increased tenfold and the 

money we commit to this should be increased tenfold. 

Again, I thank the Committee for taking up this very serious 

issue. 

Mr. SCOTT. Thank you. 

[The prepared statement of Ms. Speier follows:] 

12 

PREPARED STATEMENT OF THE HONORABLE JACKIE SPEIER, 

A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA


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Mr. SCOTT. Judge Poe. 


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TESTIMONY OF THE HONORABLE TED POE, A 

REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF TEXAS 

Mr. POE. Chairman Scott and Ranking Member Gohmert, thank 

you for holding this hearing. For several years now we have heard 

about the horror of international sex trafficking, but we are only 

just beginning to hear about the sex trafficking that preys upon our 

own children right here in the United States. 

As co-chair of the Victims Rights Caucus, along with my friend 

Jim Costa from California, we are concerned about the treatment 

of domestic crime sex trafficking victims The FBI’s Innocence Lost 

Task Force calls domestic minor sex trafficking ‘‘the most overlooked and under-investigated form of child sexual abuse in America.’’ 

Why is this the case? According to the FBI it is because too many 

people believe that child prostitution is a victimless crime and that 

the children involved are criminals themselves. This kind of thinking is absurd. These children are victims of crime. The men that 

buy the young girls for sex are guilty of exploitation and abuse, and 

they are criminals. And the traffickers are the filth of humanity 

and they are criminals. 

And as one Texas Ranger friend of mine called these individuals, 

he said, When you see one, Judge, get a rope. It is a serious epidemic. 

Houston, Texas, unfortunately, is one of the main hubs for 

human trafficking here in the United States. We have been dealing 

with this problem for a long time. However, in recent years, the 

city has made tremendous strides toward addressing this issue. In 

Houston we have one of the 42 human trafficking rescue alliance 

groups in the country. And together with the FBI’s Innocence Lost 

Initiative, they have rescued 140 domestic victims. Numerous traffickers have been prosecuted, receiving life sentences. 

Earlier this month I met with the Human Traffic and Rescue Alliance. Included in this group is a notable Houston constable, Ron 

Hickman, a law enforcement leader in confronting the epidemic of 

domestic trafficking in Texas. He and his officers told me that one 

of the biggest issues they face in combating trafficking is how to 

care for the victims. More specifically, they told me there is better 

care available to international trafficking victims that they rescue 

here in Houston than there is for our own citizens that are trafficked. 

Consider what is available to international trafficking victims. 

And I am not saying that we shouldn’t help these victims, but here 

is what is available for them in Houston. International victims are 

eligible to apply for a U-visa or a T-visa, which allows them to remain lawfully in the United States. Immigrant service groups help 

them apply for free legal, medical, mental, housing and educational 

services. International trafficking victims can receive care in a residential facility or in long-term foster homes. 

Basically, we provide care to international trafficking victims. 

Here are the resources that are available to a victim of domestic 

trafficking in Houston. At the moment, law enforcement agents 

come across these victims of domestic trafficking, they are required 

to take them into custody. Once in custody, domestic minor victims 

can only gain access to these services when they are labeled as 

17 

delinquents and charged with a class B misdemeanor of prostitution. That is right. To gain access to short-term services they have 

to be arrested and obtain a criminal record before they can be 

served by our communities. 

Furthermore, the short-term services do not even begin to address the severe physical or psychological trauma that these girls 

have encountered. Without access to specialized care, it has been 

shown that trafficking victims many times return to their traffickers and continue the cycle of abuse because they have no other 

place to go. 

We need in Houston and throughout the Nation long-term residential treatment facilities to care for victims of domestic minor 

trafficking. Any legislation that addresses this issue must include 

this victims center component. We have made improvements in caring for the victims that are trafficking across our border, as we 

should. We need to ensure that we are doing the same for our own 

children and those that exploit these children; hold them accountable, both the customer and, of course, the trafficker. And thank 

you very much. 

[The prepared statement of Mr. Poe follows:] 

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PREPARED STATEMENT OF THE HONORABLE TED POE, 

A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF TEXAS


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Mr. SCOTT. Mr. Smith. 


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TESTIMONY OF THE HONORABLE CHRISTOPHER H. SMITH, 

A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF 

NEW JERSEY 

Mr. SMITH OF NEW JERSEY. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, and thank you to Mr. Gohmert, the Ranking Member, for convening this very important hearing on domestic human trafficking. 

Mr. Chairman, I want to thank for your leadership. Most recently we were able to pass in the House the international Megan’s 

law, which is a good, strong corollary on prevention, to prevent 

those who abuse children and others through sex crimes before 

they travel abroad. The countries of destination would be advised 

in a timely fashion. 

As you know as well as I, because you helped us get that through 

the Judiciary Committee, the legislation also would make it more 

difficult for those who commit sex crimes and exploit children 

abroad to get into the United States. And if we had that information and it was actionable, which it would be if we could get 

Megan’s laws passed all over the world, we could protect our children from these predators who make their way to the United 

States. 

As you know, Mr. Chairman, in the Trafficking Victims Protection Act, severe forms of human trafficking was defined as ‘‘sex 

trafficking in which a commercial sex act is induced by force, fraud 

or coercion, or in which a person induced to perform such an act 

has not attained 18 years of age.’’ Any person under the age of 18 

and involved in commercial sex acts of any kind is a prima facie 

trafficking victim, and those who exploit and abuse these individuals could be subjected to very long prison sentences, including up 

to life imprisonment itself. 

At the time of our first trafficking law, we had little idea how 

many domestic victims this trafficking problem, this new modernday slavery actually included. The excellent work of Linda Smith 

at Shared Hope International, who we will hear from in a moment, 

and researchers at the University of Pennsylvania and the National center for Missing and Exploited Children, has numbered domestic trafficking victims at at least 100,000. And the average age, 

as Linda will say in a moment, I am sure, when they first got exploited in this fashion was 13. Thirteen years old. These are our 

daughters. These are our children. 

Driven by demand and fueled by the ease and secrecy of the 

Internet, we are facing a huge and escalating crisis of child sex 

trafficking in the United States. The FBI, to its credit, has coordinated the Innocence Lost Initiative with local law enforcement, 

State prosecutors, and social service providers since 2003 to fight 

domestic minor sex trafficking. Using this framework, the FBI has 

conducted at least four Operation Cross Country raids to catch 

pimps and rescue child victims working the streets, casinos, truck 

stops, motels and the Internet. In 2000 alone, Operation Cross 

Country rescued over 100 child victims ranging in age from 5 to 17 

years old, and caught 124 pimps. Over 1,600 law enforcement officers from 120 Federal, State, and local agencies participated. Between June of 2003 and October of 2009, the Innocence Lost program rescued nearly 900 children. 

22 

I heartily applaud the hard work and remarkable coordination of 

State and Federal resources to stop domestic minor sex trafficking. 

But there is a huge gap in the numbers we rescue versus the estimated 100,000-plus victims that are out there. And that is why it 

is so important in joining my good friend and colleague, Carolyn 

Maloney, in introducing H.R. 5575, to respectfully ask that the 

Committee look to markup at the soonest possible moment this 

very important legislation that will at long last provide the necessary refuge, the centers, the beds. As Carolyn Maloney pointed 

out a moment ago, the estimate is about 50 beds that are available 

for domestic minors and sex victims in the United States. That is 

appalling. That is really unconscionable. 

This legislation would change that by providing minimally, six grants of $2 to $2.5 million apiece so that hopefully we will provide 

a place of hope and rescue for these individuals. 

I like what Jackie Speier said a moment ago about we need to 

do tenfold. And of course we welcome amendments, because there 

really is a great need that has gone unmet in the area of places, 

beds, and centers. 

Let me also say to my colleagues that the Internet has enabled 

the misuse of trafficking, domestic trafficking in the United States. 

The Internet has opened up a whole new front in the war on trafficking, allowing demand to run free with very few obstacles. 

Therefore we must develop more effective safeguards and enforce 

existing laws to ensure that neither obscenity nor child pornography, neither of which is protected speech, to continue in the way 

that it is causing so many victims and to create a demand. 

Technology can help us if used properly. Such mechanisms include commonsense measures, including digital tagging, community 

flagging, and a whole host of other very important tools that can 

be used. 

I know my time is out and I will just finish on this, Mr. Chairman. We also need to weigh in on the ways that people, young children, are moved around. Last summer, this past summer, I convened a group of flight attendants led by American Airlines, which 

has a great program that really needs to be replicated worldwide, 

so that the flight attendants and crews will recognize a person who 

is in transit, being trafficked across borders or across States, and 

then take action; not in a vigilante type of way, but alert the pilot 

so that when this individual gets off, the right law enforcement assets—maybe ICE, if it is an international flight—can be waiting 

there at the gate to rescue or at least separate and investigate. 

There are instances after instances told at our briefing where 

people—it just didn’t look right. And the flight attendants, you 

know, watched what was going on, got into a conversation—perhaps when the young ladies were going to the restroom—and told 

the pilot, who told law enforcement, and those ladies, those young 

girls in some instances, were rescued. 

We need to close up every means of moving victims across State 

lines and international lines as well. American Airlines has a great 

program going here. And so I urge that the Committee take a look 

at that as well. 

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. SCOTT. Thank you. 

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[The prepared statement of Mr. Smith follows:] 

PREPARED STATEMENT OF THE HONORABLE CHRISTPHER H. SMITH, 

A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF NEW JERSEY


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The CHAIRMAN. Ms. Smith. 

TESTIMONY OF THE HONORABLE LINDA SMITH, 

A FORMER MEMBER OF CONGRESS 

Ms. LINDA SMITH. Thank you, Honorable Chairman and Ranking 

Member, and all of you in these tough times that really are sitting 


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through your Committee. I know you are on a vote, so thank you 

for prioritizing this. 

It is an honor to testify today on domestic minor sex trafficking. 

This is a name that we have given to sexual exploitation of U.S. 

citizen children through prostitution, pornography, and sexual entertainment. The name reflects the fact that this is human trafficking as defined in the Federal Trafficking Victims Protection Act 

of 2000. 

Victims of domestic minor sex trafficking should receive the full 

benefit of victim protection services and the rights outlined in the 

TVPA. And I guess they really, most of the time, don’t. 

Furthermore, this is the point I want to make this morning. 

Those who buy their innocence must receive the full penalty called 

for in the law. I would like to summarize my comments and submit 

them and the two reports, the Domestic Minor Sex Trafficking: 

Prostituting American Children,’’ and ‘‘Demand’’ for the record. 

Mr. SCOTT. Without objection. 

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Ms. LINDA SMITH. Thank you. A little brief background about 

Shared Hope. We started rescuing and restoring girls who were 

trafficked into sex trafficking around the world in 1998. Without 

going into that, we started studying the markets around the world, 

and we studied four specifically to compare the trafficking markets 

and how demand was facilitated. These four countries included the 

U.S., and that led to us doing more research for the Department 

of Justice. And eventually we came up with a report, the ‘‘National 

Report on Domestic Minor Sex Trafficking: America’s Prostituted 

Children.’’ 

The report reveals the following: American girls of all descriptions are being pimped, and were found in gentlemen’s clubs, 


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through escort agencies, and on the Internet Web sites in every 

major city that we researched. 

America’s youth are at risk for extreme violence through prostitution. There are at least 100,000 children who are exploited in 

prostitution every year in the United States. And the average age 

is a minor middle-school girl that is 13 years old. 

Now, this was the alarming thing, and I wanted to stop and not 

do anything after I started figuring this out. In all locations, demand for younger victims was the factor driving recruitment and 

trafficking of our middle-school girls across America. Now, I knew 

it was going to be hard for you to believe what I am telling you 

today because it is not a place that anybody exaggerates, and I was 

here so I can say that. And sometimes you just hear things and it 

is just hard to believe. 

When I got the investigative video back and I started going 

through the stats, I thought, I don’t believe this either. I am retiring to Phoenix or somewhere warm. But first of all. I wrote a book 

called ‘‘Renting Lacey’’ to kind of let people know what it was like 

to be a 13-year-old girl on the inside of trafficking. And from girls 

we have rescued and the girls we have worked with, the FBI and 

some others, they are real characters woven into a novel. 

But today you can’t read that book. So I thought I would bring 

one of my girls with me in video. This is a new girl. She is in protection right now, and I would like to introduce you to a girl we 

are going to call Lacey this morning. She was trafficked on her 

13th birthday, a little Sunday school girl, hadn’t even had a boyfriend. And by her 15th birthday we got her back, out of a hospital, 

and now she is in protection. But I want her to talk to you about 

what it is like to be a trafficking victim in the United States. 

Mr. Chair, as we bring this up, I will go ahead. And I would like 

to commend craigslist for being here today and for shutting down 

the site that so many of my cases were marketed on. I have not 

had a girl that was not marketed online, and most of them were 

marketed through craigslist that I have worked on in the United 

States. I hope we will hear a promise to Lacey, the little girl—I 

hope you will get to hear—and the 12-year-old girl in the front row, 

I just noticed that one of our little girls associated with the trafficking movement is here—that this cannot and will not happen on 

the Web site again. And we challenge other sites around the Nation, those that are just as bad at marketing children today, to follow the good lead of craigslist. 

I want to comment briefly on the two bills before us. Both of 

them make a point that I think is real important to make this 

morning. They lead with statements. They include an emphasis on 

what drives trafficking, and that is men buying commercial sex at 

a younger and younger age. 

I want to commend all the panelists for putting this as a top 

issue, for taking it onto their agenda not because it is just a popular issue, but because you have a passion in your heart. 

Now, in closing, I would just like to simply say thank you to all 

of those girls, including Lacey, who have had a chance to be saved, 

because now it is a public issue. We worked with law enforcement, 

we worked with nongovernment groups. We found a placement for 

this girl, and she is now safe because people now realize that she 

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is a victim and she is not a criminal. Let’s see if we can get Lacey 

in. 

I am going to summarize Lacey for you and give you a little bit 

of an idea of who she is. I was called on a case, and they had a 

girl in the hospital. A probation officers had connected with her 

earlier, and about a few months before that she had been picked 

up on prostitution, which makes me so sad because she was abducted at 13. But the good part about it is she had a probation officer who understood she was a victim. We were called to come in 

to find a way to protect her, to pay some expenses to help find 

placement for her; actually moved her to another State, found a 

placement. And then we moved her again and found another placement. 

But this little girl was—I call her a little church girl. Her whole 

week the week before she was abducted was going to church, going 

to Sunday school, going to youth group. She happened to have 

somebody stalk her for several months and identify that she was 

caring for her younger brothers and sisters. So she had younger 

brothers and sisters and they could threaten her with those younger brothers and sisters. They knew where she lived. They eventually got her, but she would stay in actual slavery, going to school 

part of the time and recruiting out of the school because they could 

get her little brothers and sister. 

This is a 13-year-old girl that has now just turned 15 last month. 

I had a birthday with her, and she is the same age as my youngest 

granddaughter. This is not acceptable. It has to be moved up. 

And as much as I love the foreign trafficking victims too, and we 

do rescue and restore all girls and all women that come to us, we 

have to move the domestic traffic victim who has to be over 90 percent of the victims up to a point in priority, in the TVPA funding 

or anyplace there is a chance, because it is just not acceptable to 

leave these children as criminals with no protection, and to let the 

men that are buying them walk free. Thank you. 

Mr. SCOTT. We are going to try the video one more time? 

Ms. LINDA SMITH. It actually worked this morning. This is so 

common. You know, this is just fine. I want to thank you all. If it 

does not come up, we will make it available to each of the Committee Members. Thank you. Your patience has been great. We can 

get this to you. 

Mr. SCOTT. We are expecting votes any minute now. Perhaps 

they can continue to work on it in just a minute. 

Ms. LINDA SMITH. The voice is changed and it sounds very odd, 

but she is in protection and her face is covered. 

Mr. GOHMERT. Can we stop the sound? Great. Can I also say, obviously you have made a real difference. Thank you for the lives 

you have helped. 

Ms. LINDA SMITH. Thank you. 

[The prepared statement of Ms. Smith follows:] 

115 

PREPARED STATEMENT OF THE HONORABLE LINDA SMITH, 

A FORMER MEMBER OF CONGRESS


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Mr. SCOTT. We will work on the video and see if we can get the 

video. We are going to be in recess for approximately half an hour. 

We have five votes and that will take at least a half an hour. And 

so we will reconvene at 2:30. The Subcommittee stands in recess. 


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[Recess.] 

Mr. SCOTT. While we are waiting for Judge Gohmert, could we 

run the tape that we planned to run before? I think it is about 2 

minutes long. 

[video played.] 

Mr. SCOTT. Judge Gohmert will be with us shortly. Let me begin 

by introducing our second panel. Our first panel will be Frances 

Hakes, who is the National Coordinator for Child Exploitation, Prevention, and Interdiction in the Office of the Deputy Attorney General of the Department of Justice. This position was created by 

Congress in the Protect Our Children Act of 2008. In this capacity 

she is charged with implementing a National Strategy to combat 

child exploitation. She serves as the Justice Department’s liaison 

to Federal, State, and local agencies and organizations on child exploitation issues and will be submitting reports on the National 

Strategy to Congress. She also serves as an Assistant United 

States Attorney for the Northern District of Georgia. 

Our second witness, Ernie Allen, is co-founder of the National 

Center for Missing and Exploited Children. He has served as President and CEO of the private nonprofit organization since 1989. 

Under his leadership, more than 155,000 children have been recovered and the organization has increased its recovery rate from 62 

percent in 1990 to 96 percent today. He has brought technology 

and innovation to the center, including age progression and forensic imaging of long-missing children, a 24-hour missing children 

hotline, and training for more than 276,000 law enforcement officers. 

Our third witness is Tina Frundt, who has been actively raising 

awareness of the commercial sexual exploitation of children since 

2000. A high-profile national advocate on the issue of domestic sex 

trafficking as well as a survivor herself of minor sex trafficking, 

Ms. Frundt started her own nonprofit, Courtney’s House, which 

provides services for domestic sex-trafficked youth. Courtney’s 

House is the first group home for sex-trafficked children, aged 12 

to 18, in the Washington, D.C. metropolitan area. 

Our next witness we wanted to have Mr. Lungren introduce, but 

he has been detained. Our next witness will be Nicholas Sensley, 

who was appointed Chief of Police of Truckee, California in November 2008. He has been working to combat human trafficking since 

2001 when he developed an innovative, collaborative problem-solving methodology known as the CARE model, Custodial Analysis 

Response and Evaluation. He is one of the architects of the first 

anti-human trafficking task forces in the United States that was 

initiated in New York City in 2001. Similar task force groups are 

now sponsored by the U.S. Department of Justice in 42 cities 

throughout the United States. At the request of the Department of 

Justice in 2009, he authored national guidelines for anti-human 

trafficking task force operations. 

Suzanna Tiapula is the national director—is the director of the 

National District Attorneys Association’s National Center for Prosecution of Child Abuse, where she coordinates and manages activities and operations of the Center. She also trains child abuse professionals across the country on the investigation and prosecution 

of child maltreatment and exploitation. In 2004 and 2005, she coVerDate Aug 31 2005 11:45 Jan 12, 2011 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00131 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6601 H:\WORK\CRIME\091510\58250.000 HJUD1 PsN: DOUGA
126 

ordinated the development of two advanced trial advocacy courses 

for prosecution of online crimes against children as part of the National Center’s child sexual exploitation program. 

Deborah Richardson, chief program officer for the Women’s 

Funding Network, is responsible for the implementation of the 10- 

year strategic plan, which includes programming, research, evaluation, communications, and project initiatives of this global network 

of 165 women’s funds in six continents. As a nationally recognized 

advocate in ending child sexual exploitation, she has designed 

model programs such as CEASE, Center to End Adolescent Sexual 

Exploitation, Angela’s House, which is the only safe house in the 

southeast for sexually exploited girls. And she has also been involved in the creation of multidisciplinary systems of care. Her organization has some shocking recordings which she will describe. 

Our seventh witness is William ‘‘Clint’’ Powell, who is the Director, Customer Service and Law Enforcement Relations for 

craigslist. In that capacity he has served as craigslist’s primary 

contact person with the law enforcement community for the past 6 

years. He works directly with police officers, Federal agents, prosecutors, and others in the law enforcement community whose investigations involve craigslist content, and personally testifies in 

judicial proceedings throughout the United States where matters 

require testimony regarding craigslist records or procedures. 

Elizabeth McDougall is a partner at Perkins Coie law firm’s litigation practices. She focuses on Internet-related disputes, online 

safety and security issues, and intellectual property litigation. She 

maintains an active pro bono practice currently focused on combating human trafficking. Areas of her expertise include combating 

the use of services for unlawful activities, combating exploitation 

and abuse of services for unauthorized purposes, combating misuse 

of online and off-line content and works, and combating unlawful 

intrusions into client services and systems. She also offers and provides pro bono representations to nonprofit organizations on these 

issues, with a particular emphasis on antihuman trafficking strategies, efforts, and measures. 

Now, all of the witnesses’ written statements will be entered into 

the record in its entirety. We ask each witness to summarize his 

or her testimony in 5 minutes or less, and to help stay within that 

time limit there is a lighting device on the table which will start 

green, go to yellow when there is 1 minute remaining, and will 

turn red when the 5 minutes have expired. 

Mr. SCOTT. So we will begin with Ms. Hakes. 

TESTIMONY OF FRANCEY HAKES, NATIONAL COORDINATOR 

FOR CHILD EXPLOITATION PREVENTION AND INTERDICTION, UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE, WASHINGTON, DC 

Ms. HAKES. Good afternoon, Members of the Subcommittee. 

Mr. SCOTT. Excuse me. I just noticed Mr. Lungren was with us. 

Did you want to say a kind word about your Chief? I announced 

that you were coming. 

Mr. LUNGREN. No, no, if I could just say this about Chief Sensley. 

We have had seminars in our district on the issue of human trafficking. Unfortunately, my area, by the FBI statistics, is one of the 

127 

worst in the entire United States. A lot of people have a hard time 

believing that in Sacramento, but we happen to be at the intersection of north-south interstates and east-west interstates. And Chief 

Sensley, who is from the small community of Truckee—if any of 

you want to know where that is, if you have ever been skiing in 

Lake Tahoe, you go right through his district. I asked him, how 

does a guy get from New York to Truckee, and he said, ‘‘Well, it 

helps if you like to ski.’’ 

He is an internationalized expert on this issue, he has lectured 

on the setup programs not only in the United States but in foreign 

countries. And his sensitivity to this issue is absolutely palpable. 

And I am so happy that he was able to come here, and I thank you, 

Mr. Chairman, for allowing me to put in a couple of words there. 

Mr. SCOTT. Thank you. I am sorry, Ms. Hakes. 

Ms. HAKES. Good afternoon Chairman Scott—Ranking Member 

Gohmert I don’t believe is in the room yet—and Members of the 

Subcommittee. 

As you may know, I am the National Coordinator for Child Exploitation Prevention and Interdiction. And I am attached currently 

to the Deputy Attorney General’s Office at the Department of Justice. I am also a Federal prosecutor and I have been an assistant 

U.S. Attorney since 2002. Prior to 2002, I was an assistant district 

attorney in the State of Georgia for 6 years. 

My very first trial as an assistant district attorney was a child 

exploitation case. I have specialized in child exploitation my entire 

career. 

It is an honor for me to appear before the Subcommittee to discuss Department of Justice efforts around the country to prosecute 

individuals involved in the prostitution of children. 

While, unfortunately, children around the world are victimized 

by various forms of sexual exploitation, my focus today is the commercial sex exploitation of American children by American citizens 

that occurs solely within the borders of our country. I will be describing for you the efforts being undertaken by the Department of 

Justice to combat child exploitation in all of its forms. 

As I am sure you know, the Department submitted its first ever 

National Strategy for Child Exploitation Prevention and Interdiction to Congress on August the 2nd. This National Strategy contains three parts: A comprehensive assessment of the threat child 

exploitation poses to our children; a review of the current efforts 

to prevent and interdict child exploitation across the government; 

and finally, our comprehensive approach to deterring, preventing, 

and interdicting these terrible crimes. 

The commercial sexual exploitation of American children is a 

form of human trafficking. It is often prosecuted under the sex trafficking provisions of 18 United States Code section 1591. Those 

who sexually exploit children, whether foreign or domestic, for commercial gain exploit the vulnerabilities of their victims. American 

children are recruited by pimps and madams from all socioeconomic classes and from all races. They become victims because 

of abandonment, abuse, or unhappiness. These children targeted by 

pimps and madams are typically runaways, throwaways, or victims 

of physical or sexual abuse. 

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These vulnerable children are promised stability, love, attention, 

and a home, but instead find themselves forced into prostitution. 

American pimps and madams can recruit children for nearly nothing and can easily replace one child with another. They seem to 

have little fear of law enforcement, confident in their ability to 

keep their victims from cooperating against them. And, sadly, these 

pimps and madams are confident that they have customers who 

are willing to pay to sexually assault these children. 

The Department of Justice is heavily involved in combating this 

grave and growing problem. While it is difficult to imagine, children as young as 11 are targeted for commercial sexual exploitation. 

In June of 2003, as this Committee has already heard, in order 

to address this growing problem, the Department, with the FBI 

and the Department’s Child Exploitation and Obscenity Section, in 

conjunction with the National Center for Missing and Exploited 

Children, launched the Innocence Lost National Initiative. Each of 

the Innocence Lost National Initiative’s 38 task forces and workings groups throughout the United States work in tandem with 

Federal agents, State and local law enforcement, and with U.S. Attorneys offices. They also bring together Federal, State, and local 

law enforcement prosecutors and social service providers to engage 

in training at the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children. 

To date, this Innocence Lost Initiative has resulted in nearly 600 

convictions at the State and Federal level and the location and recovery of more than 1,100 children. Investigative efforts have increasingly resulted in substantial sentences for those convicted, including four life sentences and many others ranging between 25 

and 45 years. 

Recognizing that a gap in services often leads to difficulty in 

gaining a victim’s cooperation in these cases, the Department’s Office for Victims of Crime is funding three demonstration projects 

that are focused on providing services to domestic children exploited through prostitution. These projects will hopefully identify 

promising practices in the delivery of a wide away of services to 

vulnerable victims, and we look forward to a report from these 

projects. 

As I noted at the the beginning of my remarks, the Department 

has recently submitted its National Strategy for Child Exploitation 

Prevention and Interdiction to Congress, and I brought a copy with 

me today for those of who you have not seen it. We have also already begun implementing the goals and the priorities contained 

therein. 

When we submit our next report, I expect we will be able to tell 

you of the strong progress we have made in the fight against all 

forms of child exploitation. 

As we note in the National Strategy, we are committed to a 

multifaceted attack on child exploitation on three fronts: Prevention, deterrence, and interdiction. Each of these three is critical to 

our success in this fight. We are engaged with all of our law enforcement partners on interdiction efforts, with our community and 

agency partners at the Department of Education and others in our 

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prevention efforts, and with the U.S. Marshals and others on our 

deterrence efforts. 

The message that we are sending with our National Strategy is 

clear. The Department of Justice is fully engaged in preventing, deterring, and interdicting these heinous crimes. Our goal is to prevent exploitation where we can and to aggressively pursue those 

who prey on our children with strong enforcement, vigorous prosecution, and serious jail time for those who believe they can harm 

our children with impunity. Thank you. 

Mr. SCOTT. Thank you. 

[The prepared statement of Ms. Hakes follows:] 

PREPARED STATEMENT OF FRANCEY HAKES


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Mr. SCOTT. Chief Sensley. 

TESTIMONY OF NICHOLAS A. SENSLEY, CHIEF OF POLICE, 

TRUCKEE POLICE DEPARTMENT, TRUCKEE, CA 

Chief SENSLEY. Thank you Mr. Chairman, Ranking Member 

Gohmert and other Members of the Committee. And especially to 


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Mr. Lungren, thank you for the support that you continue to show 

for us in California. 

I am going to jump to the end as I speak to the issues that have 

been spoken to in many representations here today. Part of my concern is in the use of the term ‘‘slavery.’’ My concern rests there because from the street level we can attest that what is going on in 

this domestic minor sex trafficking is, in fact, an act of slavery. 

Where the problem exists is that there is not the emphasis in responding to this problem of slavery that we saw some 200 years 

ago. And if perhaps truly a shift were to occur, we would see the 

needed response for our children, particularly on the street. 

I go back to Mr. Gohmert’s earlier statement when he spoke, in 

saying that this is a problem that is difficult to comprehend. It is 

in fact a problem that is difficult to comprehend even among the 

law enforcement circles, and that is a part of the problem in that 

it causes often an inappropriate response to a very significant problem and quite an atrocity that is being perpetrated against our 

children. 

When in the initial years following—particularly the first year 

following the passage of TVPA, we were conservatively estimating 

that 90 percent of law enforcement was unaware of this problem 

as it manifests itself here in this country, let alone how it manifests itself in other parts of the world. The other-parts-of-the-world 

side of this issue is part of the problem in that it is largely perceived as something that goes on somewhere else and that it is not 

happening here at home to our own children. That in itself leads 

to another level of victimization for a tremendous problem that is 

going on in every major city, even in small cities, around the world. 

And we need to recognize that for what it is. 

The City of Dallas, in these statistics that they have brought 

from their work, one of the statistics that they point out is that 

there is an 85 percent chance that by the second time a teenage 

girl runs away, she will be sexually exploited. By the third time 

she runs away, she will be commercially sexually exploited. She 

will be a victim of human trafficking. 

There is great cooperation that is going on between Federal, 

State, and local enforcement officers and among the NGO partners 

that are a part of the response to this problem. But from what I 

am seeing it is happening in pockets around our country and with 

varying levels of success. That is largely dependent upon issues related to education and training; resources, particularly resources in 

terms of facilities. 

It is a difficult matter for a young patrol officer when with some 

diligence has managed to identify what truly may be a victim of 

human trafficking, and the best that he has is to maintain that 

person in the back of a patrol car until they can beg or make some 

sort of appeal to place this child who, if not properly placed, will 

simply end up back on the street and in the system and in the 

hands of the traffickers. And when that child sees that is the system’s response to the tragedy that she has lived, then there is no 

reason to have confidence in a justice system to find resolution to 

this problem. 

Another matter that I would really like to speak to very quickly 

with regard to the bill itself. I appreciate the statement and the 

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concern about a ‘‘john program’’ that pays for the education of the 

perpetrators on the demand side of this issue. Quite frankly, if they 

had the money to pay for the services to exploit these children, 

then they have have the money it takes to pay for being caught in 

the perpetration of this crime. 

I highly encourage us in this time of considering this issue that 

this only be the beginning of a major movement toward combating 

this problem. If we truly regard it as an issue of slavery, then we 

should give it the response that slavery deserves on a wide scale 

and a monumental level. Thank you very much. 

Mr. SCOTT. Thank you. 

[The prepared statement of Mr. Sensley follows:] 

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PREPARED STATEMENT OF NICHOLAS A. SENSLEY


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Mr. SCOTT. Mr. Allen. 

TESTIMONY OF ERNIE ALLEN, PRESIDENT AND CEO, NATIONAL CENTER FOR MISSING AND EXPLOITED CHILDREN, 

ALEXANDRIA, VA 

Mr. ALLEN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Judge Gohmert, Members 

of the Committee. It has been said several times, but most Americans believe that child trafficking only happens somewhere else. 


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Today I can report to you that it is happening to at least 100,000 

U.S. children each year. You have heard the numbers from the 

Members already. 

The primary basis for our estimate is a study by the University 

of Pennsylvania, funded by the National Institute of Justice. The 

researchers estimated that 293,000 U.S. children are at risk each 

year and that 250,000 10- to 17-year-olds are involved in commercial sexual exploitation, with at least 60 percent being runaway, 

throwaway, or homeless kids. Of that number, we believe that at 

least 100,000 are trafficking victims. 

One-third of street-level prostitutes are less than 18. One half of 

off-street prostitutes are less than 18. Since the launch of the Innocence Lost Initiative that Ms. Hakes mentioned, we at the Center 

have learned several important things. One is that much of this is 

organized crime. There is a network. These kids are moved from 

city to city. 

While most of it is not traditional Mafia-type organized crime, in 

April a Federal grand jury in New York indicted members of the 

Gambino crime family for selling kids for sex via the Internet. Organized crime is involved for two reasons: low risk, high profit. 

We have learned, as has been mentioned by Chief Sensley and 

others, that these kids are victims. This truly is 21st century slavery. They lack the ability to walk away. The pimps who use them 

are the criminals, as are the customers who purchase them. These 

kids need to be rescued, not arrested. 

And we have learned that the offenders don’t just parade these 

kids on city streets anymore. We have learned, we have seen over 

the past 7 years that there has been gradual movement to the 

Internet. The customers shop online from the privacy of their own 

homes and hotel rooms, and that is why in 2008 the National Center joined with Connecticut Attorney General Richard Blumenthal 

and 40 other AGs in an agreement with craigslist, the largest online classified advertising site. We recognize that law enforcement 

is never going to be able to arrest and prosecute everybody. If we 

are going to end child sexual trafficking, which is the goal, we need 

a multipronged attack that includes engaging the companies at the 

epicenter of the problem. 

Why was the nonprofit National Center a party to such an agreement? Well, first, it is what we do. Secondly, Congress has given 

the Center 20 specific mandates, including operating the 

CyberTipline, the national reporting mechanism for child sexual 

exploitation, working to prevent child sexual exploitation, and specifically working with law enforcement, Internet service providers, 

electronic payment providers and others to reduce the distribution 

on the Internet of images of sexually exploited children. So it was 

absolutely necessary and appropriate for us to be a party to the 

agreement. And let me add that we have not received a dime from 

craigslist, nor will we. 

In the 2008 agreement, craigslist agreed to require credit card 

verification, working phone numbers, and aid law enforcement investigations. Yet after several months, it was clear that the agreement was not having the intended effect. So in 2009, craigslist 

agreed to take additional steps, including shutting down Erotic 

Services, replacing it with a new category in which all ads would 

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be manually screened, with suspicious ads being reported to the 

National Center. Nude or graphic pornography photos were 

banned. 

Again, while there was some impact, we concluded that it was 

not eliminating the problem, so we pressed for additional steps. It 

now appears that craigslist has shut down Adult Services altogether. And if indeed this has occurred, we think it is a positive 

and constructive step. 

However, we must broaden the focus beyond craigslist and urge 

every online classified site to take action, including flagging and reporting suspicious ads to the National Center’s CyberTipline. 

Let me illustrate briefly. In July, a Maryland mother found her 

daughter in a sex ad on multiple sites, including craigslist and 

Back Page. She contacted us. We worked with the Maryland State 

Police and the FBI. The juvenile was recovered. The pimp was arrested. The child in the ad looked young, yet no company reported 

it. There are many other examples. 

We received over the past 16 months 137 reports from craigslist. 

They removed 725,000 ads. Our message to these companies and 

the public is simple: If you see it, if you suspect it, if you know 

about it, report it. That is the way law enforcement learns about 

these cases. 

Now, we recognize that if we crack down in one area, some of 

this problem will migrate to other areas. But frankly that is 

progress. We follow the money. The goal is to destroy the business 

model of those who sell children for sex on the Internet. 

Let me mention briefly a few other priorities. First, many of 

these kids are missing children. Our analysts are doing image 

matching, searching databases trying to identify children who have 

been reported missing by their parents, and are finding a bunch of 

them. Yet some law enforcement agencies still do not enter them 

promptly into NCIC as is required by Federal law, and some not 

at all. There must be comprehensive law enforcement training in 

how to recognize high-risk victims and respond effectively. 

This is a complex problem that crosses political boundaries and 

jurisdictions. There needs to be strong cooperation between Federal 

and State governments. In July, the National Conference of State 

Legislatures adopted a strong policy on human trafficking calling 

for more services for victims, enhancement of NCIC, and greater 

Federal-State dialogue and collaboration. We think that is important. 

There needs to be far more attention to prevention. Increasingly, 

our society is sexualizing children at younger and younger ages, 

leading some kids to view sexual exploitation as normal. We must 

keep them from becoming compliant victims. 

As you have heard, we need to attack demand, and we need to 

create greater understanding as to why there is such a large market in this country for sex with kids. 

Finally, we have got to provide more services for the victims. 

Today there are some extraordinary programs doing heroic work, 

but there are not enough of them and the ones that exist receive 

insufficient funding. 

In conclusion, Mr. Chairman, I can report that we are making 

progress, but there is much more to do and we believe that ConVerDate Aug 31 2005 11:45 Jan 12, 2011 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00145 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6601 H:\WORK\CRIME\091510\58250.000 HJUD1 PsN: DOUGA
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gresswoman Maloney and Congressman Smith’s bill is a great step 

forward. Thank you. 

Mr. SCOTT. Thank you. 

[The prepared statement of Mr. Allen follows:] 

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PREPARED STATEMENT OF ERNIE ALLEN


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Mr. SCOTT. Ms. Frundt. 

TESTIMONY OF TINA FRUNDT, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR/ 

FOUNDER, COURTNEY’S HOUSE, WASHINGTON, DC 

Ms. FRUNDT. Thank you, Mr. Chairman and Members of the 

Committee. I am a survivor of child sex trafficking. I was 13 when 

I fell in love for the first time. He turned out to be a pimp. I was 

gang-raped, psychologically manipulated, sold for sex, and beaten. 

I had a broken arm, a broken finger, and a broken spirit when the 

police found me at the age of 15 through a raid. Sadly, they arrested me and I spent 1 year in juvenile detention. Torture. 

This is the typical experience of a child sex trafficking victim. Arrest rescued me from my pimp, but it gave me the label of delinquent. Detention gave me a year away from the daily rapes and 

beatings that I was enduring but it did not provide me with the 

counseling or the treatment for the trauma. I spent 1 year locked 

up, and came out at the end with no referrals for services, nothing 

to help me go back and have a normal childhood. 

I took those experiences and made it my mission, as many, many 

survivors do, to be a part of the solution. A decade ago I committed 

to developing and providing the specialized services that I did not 

receive when I was a victim. And soon I will provide a specialized 

shelter, so desperately needed, to truly help hundreds and thousands of children used in prostitution in our country every year. 

First, I founded Courtney’s House in the District of Columbia 

which provides outreach, case management, specialized services to 

treat the trauma victims of child sex trafficking. Next, I began developing Shae’s Place, a shelter for girls, ages 12 to 18, in Northern 

Virginia. We are set to open this year. However, one of the gaps 

we have at this time is the absence of safe housing. Appropriate 

shelter, specifically for boys and girl victims of domestic sex trafficking. 

Shae’s Place is designated to be a long-term home for six residents with a maximum stay of 3 years, with a 2-year aftercare program. It can take years for a victim to recover, and each victim requires tailored therapy. This can only be accomplished effectively 

in a place of safety and trama-centered treatment. 

A shelter like Shae’s Place is not inexpensive to operate. Our annual projected budget is $600,000. While this provides housing, 

home schooling, counseling, therapy, as well as activities, food, everything they need, it is supplemented by generous gifts right now: 

drastically reduced rent, in-kind gifts of furniture and necessities, 

as well as volunteer activities. Also, sizable grants from donors like 

Shared Hope International. 

Our cooperation with law enforcement has been critical on both 

the rescue front and the aftercare programs and shelter preparations. As the most frequent first responders in a case of domestic 

minor sex trafficking, it it is critical that they are connected to 

Courtney’s House so that we can accompany them on raids to stabilize and advocate for any victims identified at the scene. We also 

follow through with case management after the rescue which gives 

the victims confidence to work with law enforcement in building 

cases. And after the case is over, they will still continue to work 

with us and receive the proper treatment that they deserve. 

150 

There are group homes and shelters all over the country where 

children are placed, and some may even have specialized shelters 

for different types of various sexual abuse. However, the special 

trauma suffered by a victim of domestic minor sex trafficking requires a specialized environment. This population suffers from intense embarrassment and shame, having been conditioned by the 

traffickers to blame themselves. 

The Internet has played a big part in the sex trafficking of every 

client, both boys and girls. Not only craigslist, but every child we 

have, has been sold on craigslist, averaging ages of 11 to 17. 

But what we really need to take a look at is the other resources 

us as well. Every pimp has a MySpace page. Every pimp has a 

MySpace page. They also use backpage.com. And also every 

pedophile who buys sex from children have john boards where they 

go online and post information on where to buy children. And this 

is not only inside our United States, it is also worldwide. This has 

been going on for many, many, many years. We must do something 

about our children being sold on the Internet. 

Honorable Chairman, Members of the Committee, thank you for 

the opportunity to share my experiences. As a voice of a survivor, 

and now as leader in providing services and, soon, specialized shelter to victims of domestic minor sex trafficking, I must tell you that 

when we see for the average age for boys and girls is 11 to 12 years 

old. I implore you to pass the H.R. 5575, which will enable six locations around the country to set up comprehensive responses to the 

child sex trafficking occurring in their cities. One of these six 

grants may not be used in Washington, D.C., or Northern Virginia, 

but the benefit of six shelters somewhere in the Nation, likely doubling the number of beds currently allocated to domestic minor sex 

trafficking victims, cannot be underestimated. And we need this 

yesterday. 

Thank you very much. 

[The prepared statement of Ms. Frundt follows:] 

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PREPARED STATEMENT OF TINA FRUNDT


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Mr. SCOTT. Thank you. Ms. Tiapula. 


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TESTIMONY OF SUZANNA TIAPULA, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL 

CENTER FOR PROSECUTION OF CHILD ABUSE, NATIONAL 

DISTRICT ATTORNEYS ASSOCIATION, ALEXANDRIA, VA 

Ms. TIAPULA. Chairman Scott, Ranking Member Gohmert and 

Members of the Subcommittee, thank you for inviting me to testify 

today on behalf of the National District Attorneys Association, the 

oldest and the largest organization representing over 39,000 district attorneys, States attorneys, attorneys general and county, city 

and tribal prosecutors with responsibility for prosecuting 95 percent of the criminal violations in every state and territory of the 

United States. Protecting our children from those who would commercially sexually exploit them remains one of the most important 

challenges facing America’s criminal justice system today. Commercial sexual exploitation of children is particularly problematic, since 

many criminal justice systems have only recently begun to address 

the victimization of our adolescents and our children that occurs in 

the guise of sex trafficking and prostitution. Emerging research on 

the adolescent brain, trauma bonding, the intimate partner violence dynamic of pimp/child relationships is reshaping our criminal 

justice responses to more appropriately address the needs of these 

children, while bringing justice to those who would commercially 

sexually exploit them. 

As the program director of the National Center for Prosecution 

of Child Abuse, a program of the National District Attorneys Association, I provide technical assistance, and training support to the 

39,000 prosecutors charged with protecting the boys and girls in 

this country from commercial sexual exploitation and allied professionals. I am a former prosecutor. I have served as a State and 

local prosecutor in multiple jurisdictions handling a range of intimate partner violence and child abuse cases, many of which involved victims of human trafficking. 

It is through these experiences that I applaud and thank you for 

appreciating the need to improve systems responses to bring justice 

to these victims and to end human trafficking and slavery in this 

country. The leadership demonstrated by each of you who serve on 

this Subcommittee and hosting this briefing suggests that the coordination of Federal, tribal, State and local efforts in this area is 

now widely recognized as an increasing priority in America’s criminal justice system. There are countless cases where juvenile justice 

responses, civil trial protection and criminal prosecution of child 

abuse do not reflect common schema or coordination. The statutory 

frameworks which criminalize adolescent victimization through 

prosecution stand in stark contrast to the human trafficking statutes which are specifically designed and outline protection for victims of trafficking. Many jurisdictions, too many jurisdictions, have 

conflicting statutory frameworks for addressing the victimization of 

our children. 

As long as we are arresting the child victims we are facilitating 

the sex industry in this country. Statutory frameworks which provide limited opportunities for the underage trafficking victim to cooperate with prosecution and make healthier choices fly in the face 

of our understanding of the adolescent brain, the intimate partner 

violence dynamic and the trauma bonding which occurs in these 

cases. The post-traumatic stress issues which are related to a hisVerDate Aug 31 2005 11:45 Jan 12, 2011 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00161 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6601 H:\WORK\CRIME\091510\58250.000 HJUD1 PsN: DOUGA
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tory of repeated sexual assault and the inability of our child protection systems to respond appropriately to the needs of sexually exploited children and to the children in our foster care system. 

We have invited medical partners, including the American Academy of Pediatrics, to develop a public health model for addressing 

the medical needs of these children. A criminal justice framework 

is absolutely appropriate for responding to those who are commercially sexually exploiting our children. Other frameworks might 

provide insights for better meeting the needs of the child victims 

in these cases. The need for adequate victim services is critical to 

improving the criminal justice responses with victim center investigation and prosecution practices. 

Another concern that has been largely overlooked is that many 

of the underage female victims in these cases have children or are 

pregnant at the time of the investigation, often by their trafficker 

or pimp. Child protection needs to be involved to consider carefully 

the needs of the second generation victims in these cases. Also, we 

too often find the very inappropriately named john schools included 

in victims service allocations. I believe that was raised earlier. 

From a linguistic and a victim’s perspective, John is a book in the 

Bible, the name of my brother, and many excellent individuals. The 

criminals who commercially sexual exploit our children should not 

have their criminal behavior minimized by this language. 

Chairman Scott, Ranking Member Gohmert, Members of the 

Subcommittee, I appreciate the opportunity to testify before you on 

this important topic and thank you for appreciating the need to improve systems responses for the domestic victims of sex trafficking 

in this country. I am more than happy to answer any questions you 

may have. 

Mr. SCOTT. Thank you. 

[The prepared statement of Ms. Tiapula follows:] 

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PREPARED STATEMENT OF SUZANNA TIAPULA


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Mr. SCOTT. Ms. Richardson. 

TESTIMONY OF DEBORAH RICHARDSON, CHIEF PROGRAM 

OFFICER, WOMEN’S FUNDING NETWORK, SAN FRANCISCO, CA 

Ms. RICHARDSON. Good afternoon, Chairman Scott, Ranking 

Member Gohmert and Members of the Subcommittee. I have 

worked for more than a decade to protect girls from domestic sex 

trafficking. I have seen girls as young as 10 years old handcuffed, 

hauled off to juvenile detention while their predators who pay for 

sex with them went free. And I would just like to stop and thank 

you, Tina, for speaking on behalf of so many young girls who cannot speak for themselves. 

An independent tracking study released today by the Women’s 

Funding Network shows that over the past 6 months, the number 

of underage girls trafficked online has risen exponentially in three 

diverse States, Michigan, a 39.2 percent increase, New York, a 20.7 

percent increase, and Minnesota, a staggering, 64.7 increase. And 

what you see on the projected slide documents what you have already heard. The intimate is the predominant source for trafficking 

of domestic underage girls. The anonymous veil of the Internet 

makes this crime practically risk-free for traffickers and the men 

who buy sex with innocent girls, laws protecting these young girls 

have not kept up with technology. 

To demonstrate my point, I brought some audio tapes today 

which I am not able to hear, but I ask, Mr. Chairman, if I may respectfully submit them as part of my written testimony. 

Mr. SCOTT. Without objection, so ordered. 

Ms. RICHARDSON. Thank you. What you would have heard on 

this tape are men calling online ordering sex from young girls. The 

young girl said, I am just turning 16. Is that okay? The man responded, that is okay. Actually, I wish you were 12. Another man, 

in talking about the location with this young girl where they would 

meet up, the girl said yes, I know where that is. It is next to my 

school. Those voices are shocking. But what they demonstrate is 

that every day, in every community, calls are being made by men 

who are our neighbors and colleagues. 

Mr. Allen said a few minutes ago, you must follow the money. 

And in a report released today by the AIM Group, it says where 

the money is that demonstrates in 12 online sites, they will account 

for $63 million in sex for sale ad revenue in 2010. And until 

craigslist took down its site earlier this month, they were accounting for $30 million of these sales. The next competitor is Backpage, 

with $17.5 million. In the 2010 independent study, men who buy 

sex with adolescent girls, more than half the men responding to 

this ad featuring young girls wanted to continue the transaction 

despite multiple warnings that the girl they were about to buy was 

underage. 

As a matter of fact, according to our study, ads on craigslist received three times as many responses compared to Backpage. When 

we released this study, craigslist’s initial response was a cease and 

desist demand. The Women’s Funding Network asked to sit down 

and talk to them about solutions, but they declined. Backpage response, nothing at all. While we acknowledge craigslist for its recent actions, we are interested in what you will present today in 

163 

terms of solutions. We hope the Committee will ask craigslist how 

it will make sure that no girl is sold on its site. Notwithstanding 

the significant role of the Internet, we believe that there are both 

public policy and grassroots efforts that can be deployed to address 

this issue. The Women’s Funding Network is one of the largest 

philanthropic networks in the world representing womens’ funds on 

six continents, and we have accelerated our efforts in the United 

States to end domestic sex trafficking. 

We are making an initial investment of $1 million to support the 

work of our member funds, and this investment will go toward replicating the successful models of future not a past, that campaign 

that has amazing results in Georgia. The Michigan Women’s Foundation, the Women’s Foundation of Minnesota, the New York Women’s Foundation, and the Dallas Women’s Foundation, are the first 

four of 10 States that are mounting statewide efforts. The Georgia 

model, as Ms. Hakes is very much aware of, combines independent 

resources, law enforcement, the statewide system for care and 

grassroots and leadership. And we are seeing that their numbers 

on the number of girls being sexually exploited in the past 6 

months is trending downward. 

The Women’s Funding Network will stand side by side with Congress, law enforcement and fellow advocacy organizations who will 

use the collective voices and the power of our 142 members funds 

in 42 States in this country representing hundreds of thousands of 

women and men to end domestic trafficking of underage girls. 

Finally, we ask the facilitation and exploitation of girls through 

commercial exportation we all know is against Federal law. To ultimately address this, we ask the Department of Justice to aggressively investigate and prosecute those who break Federal law. We 

cannot completely prosecute our way out of this issue, and this is 

why we must address demand. Backpage, craigslist and others, 

what is your solution and the role you play in perpetuating this 

crime? Together, as a Nation that holds the highest values of 

human rights, we must come together now and create a no tolerance for buying and selling our children for sex. Thank you. 

Mr. SCOTT. Thank you. 

[The prepared statement of Ms. Richardson follows:] 

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PREPARED STATEMENT OF DEBORAH RICHARDSON


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Mr. SCOTT. Mr. Powell. 


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TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM ‘‘CLINT’’ POWELL, DIRECTOR, CUSTOMER SERVICE AND LAW ENFORCEMENT RELATIONS, 

CRAIGSLIST, INC., SAN FRANCISCO, CA 

Mr. POWELL. Thank you, Chairman Scott, Ranking Member 

Gohmert and Subcommittee Members. My name is William Clinton 

Powell, and I am craigslist’s director of customer service and law 

enforcement relations. I have served as craigslist’s primary liaison 

with law enforcement since I joined the company in April 2004. I 

appreciate the opportunity to meet with you this afternoon. 

I know that Jim Buckmaster and Craig Newmark were initially 

invited. Given the short notice, Jim was not available to travel to 

Washington to testify today. And Craig is focused primarily on his 

role as a member of my customer service team and has not been 

involved in the day-to-day management of the company for about 

10 years. I also want to echo the sentiments of speakers that have 

preceded me with respect to the horror and revulsion that we all 

feel about this issue. I also agree with Congresswoman Speier’s 

characterization of the issue as a human tragedy because it is. 

As background, I would like to say a few words about the service 

that craigslist provides. We offer local online classified ad listings 

and discussion forums that are used by over 60 million Americans 

each month. Craigslist users post and respond to ads to help them 

find basic necessities in their everyday lives such as jobs, housing, 

secondhand items, local services, personal relationships and event 

listings. Today craigslist is far and away the leading classified advertising service used in the United States. Until recently, 

craigslist included an adult services category. It was created in 

2001 at the request of craigslist users tired of seeing adult services 

ads mixed into the personals categories. They wanted a separate 

category for such ads, similar to what Yellow Pages, newspapers 

and other advertising venues have done for a number of decades. 

Working collaboratively with attorneys general, law enforcement, 

prominent NGOs, and other concerned parties, craigslist has developed industry leading best practices for adult services ads, including the following: Educating and encouraging users to report suspected trafficking and exploitation, prominently featuring law enforcement contacts and hotlines for reporting illegal activity, creating specialized victim search interfaces for law enforcement agencies, implementing a wide variety of technical screening and filtering measures, and manually reviewing every adult service ad 

prior to posting. 

To our knowledge, no other venue has adopted these best practices, and, in fact, very few venues adopted more than one of the 

measures. Indeed, craigslist, we feel, has been one of the bright 

spots and success stories in the critical fight against trafficking and 

child exploitation. We have been told as much by experts on the 

front lines, many of whom we have met with in person, from whom 

we have gathered helpful suggestions that we have incorporated 

into our approach. Craigslist has been virtually alone among the 

many advertising venues carrying adult ads in vigorously combating exploitation and trafficking. 

Regarding cooperation with law enforcement and other partners, 

craigslist facilitates billions, literally billions of human interactions 

each month, many of them face to face, among tens of millions of 

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U.S. users, nearly all of whom are well intentioned law abiding citizens seeking legitimate ends. The incidence of crime related to the 

use of craigslist is extremely low. But despite our best efforts, it is 

not and cannot be zero. When craigslist is misused for illegal activity, we assist law enforcement in their investigations. The company 

has a long history of close cooperation with law enforcement. For 

example, with respect to the subject matter for today’s hearing, we 

pride ourselves on our responsiveness to law enforcement. Our goal 

is to turn around inquiries within one business day, rather than 

the typically much longer intervals at other Internet companies. 

I have personally been told many times by law enforcement 

agents that craigslist is by far the most responsive Internet company that they deal with. We participate actively in the cyber tip 

line program administered by the National Center for Missing and 

Exploited Children, and ads that meet NCMEC’s reporting guidelines are reported immediately. Moreover, we have been advised by 

NCMEC that we are the only such participant making direct reports among countless other venues that carry adult service ads. 

We have assisted sweeps, anti trafficking sweeps by the FBI and 

have been credited by agents with helping make those sweeps successful. We have engineered special tools to facilitate the work of 

NCMEC and law enforcement. These include creation of multiple 

special search interfaces that facilitate the search for missing children across all craigslist sites. 

In conclusion, I would like to reiterate two items that may be 

helpful to the Committee. First, craigslist discontinued its adult 

services section on September 3, 2010, and there are no plans to 

reinstate the category. Those who formerly posted ads in the adult 

services category will now have to advertise elsewhere, and in fact, 

there is evidence that this process began immediately after September 3. And second, craigslist has always taken pride in assisting law enforcement and we will continue to do so in the future. 

Once again, thank you for extending the invitation to meet with 

the Committee. 

[The prepared statement of Mr. Powell follows:] 

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PREPARED STATEMENT OF WILLIAM CLINTON POWELL


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Mr. SCOTT. Ms. McDougall. 

TESTIMONY OF ELIZABETH L. ‘‘LIZ’’ McDOUGALL, 

PARTNER, PERKINS COIE, LLP, SEATTLE, WA 

Ms. MCDOUGALL. Good afternoon. Thank you, Chairman Scott 

and Committee. Thank you for having me here. My name is Liz 


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McDougall. I am with the law firm of Perkins Coie, and I am here 

today because I am counsel to craigslist on online safety, security 

and abuse issues and I have been counsel to craigslist in that regard for over 2 years. I want to say, first off, that there is substantial common ground that we share with everybody on this panel 

today. We believe, as they do, that human trafficking and child exploitation is a heinous and insidious problem. We also agree, as 

Mr. Allen said, it is an extremely complex problem. It is a problem 

that involves the luring and seduction of victims. It involves the social conditions that make victims susceptible. It involves the culture and profitability of pimps and of organized crime. 

And it involves demand. It involves finding a way to stop the demand, the men, predominantly men who create this market. Because of the complexity of the problem, it comes as no surprise that 

there is a significant divergence and even clash sometimes of views 

as to how to solve this problem. This is where, I think, we and 

some the groups at the table today diverge. A number of the groups 

that have spoken have an approach toward solving the child sexual 

exploitation problem by the idealistic approach that, if you eradicate prostitution and adult services in any venue, you will eradicate victims. There will be no more victims if there can be no more 

services. Craigslist’s approach, after getting input from interested 

parties, including NGOs, advocacy groups, law enforcement, politicians, and victims, craigslist has adopted a practical approach. 

Craigslist’s approach has been to contain, control, educate and 

support and assist law enforcement. With respect to containment, 

craigslist created first the erotic services, then the adult services 

category so that adult content, which includes legal adult services, 

could be put in one location, and that both serves the purpose of 

making sure that people who don’t want to see such content don’t 

have to view that content. However, it also gives a single location 

for law enforcement, rescue groups, families looking for children, 

one location to go to. It is like in a city that zones a particular area 

for adult entertainment, adult activities. It is confined to a particular zoned area. The police know where it is, and they can look 

for illegal activity in that region. 

With respect to controls, craigslist implemented flagging that 

was commended as one way to help control this problem on the 

Internet. Craigslist also engages in active reporting. They have numerous technical measures to filter out ads that could involve trafficking, child exploitation or child pornography. And they implemented, in conjunction with the attorneys general and the National 

Center for Missing and Exploited Children, a telephone verification 

system, a credit card fee and verification system, and enforcement 

actions to stop some of the tools that were being sold that facilitated the abuse on craigslist Web site. There is one point I would 

like to be very clear about, and that is, as you know, I just said 

that the attorneys general and NCMEC were part of the request. 

It was their idea that craigslist charge a fee for adult services because it facilitates tracking the perpetrators behind posting the 

ads. 

Up to that time, craigslist had never charged for the adult services and had no intention to charge for the adult services. With respect to the education that craigslist provides, craigslist impleVerDate Aug 31 2005 11:45 Jan 12, 2011 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00180 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6601 H:\WORK\CRIME\091510\58250.000 HJUD1 PsN: DOUGA
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mented and this was years ago, long before craigslist had become 

engaged with the attorneys general, a help page for the exploitation of minors that included reference to the national trafficking 

hot line. 

That page developed over time to include references to the reporting, the cyber tip line for NCMEC, as well as numerous local 

resources. Furthermore, on the entry pages to the adult services 

section, there were warnings and again references to NCMEC’s 

cyber tip line and requests for users to also report, if they suspected illegal activity. Finally, with respect to referrals and assistance and support for law enforcement, in addition to making referrals to NCMEC, as Mr. Powell described, craigslist has been foremost in responding rapidly, cooperatively, to law enforcement, created specific tools, and pursuant to the joint statement, continued 

regular meetings with the attorneys general and invited meetings 

with anybody who was willing to listen. 

Indeed, the Georgia juvenile justice contacted craigslist with respect to a possibility for improving the ability to identify minors in 

photographs on-line. We responded to the call the very same day, 

followed up, and we were engaged in a dialogue about it. Unfortunately, the woman at Georgia Juvenile Justice suffered a death in 

the family, and although we followed up and hoped to continue 

that dialogue, they never responded. I would also like to point out 

in terms of voluntary action by craigslist, when craigslist implemented these measures, credit card verification and phone 

verification, a lot of that started to migrate over to the therapeutic 

services category on craigslist, and voluntarily craigslist implemented these same measures there. 

So in addition to phone verification, credit card fees and manual 

screening on the adult services, they implemented it voluntarily in 

therapeutic services. So craigslist has more than fulfilled the obligations under the joint statement, and now craigslist has also removed the adult services category. With respect to a couple of comments that were made, I do want to point out there has been reference to a study by the Shapiro Group and there have been some 

numbers quoted and relied on by that to indicate that craigslist is 

somehow the worst offender out there, rather than the most active, 

aggressive online service combating trafficking. There was submitted to this Committee, I believe, a report today by the Urban 

Institute that addresses the report that was published by the Shapiro report, and I will just ask you to look at that and to consider 

the comments when you, if you, indeed, choose to consider information that has been derived from that report. 

I would like to address Mr. Allen’s point regarding reports made 

to NCMEC. He pointed out, correctly, that craigslist blocked over 

700,000 ads from posting on its adult services category, and noted 

that only approximately 137 of those resulted in referrals to 

NCMEC. Well, if you look at the chart that was provided this 

morning to the Committee, it’s a chart from ALEXA which tracks 

online activity. You will see that activity on Backpage spiked, both 

in May 2009 when craigslist implemented the credit card payment 

procedure, and it spiked because the perpetrators knew that was 

much easier then for them to be caught on craigslist, and they 

moved their traffic. 

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You will also see a significant spike occurring at the very end of 

the graph which indicates September 3 when craigslist took down 

the adult services section and the traffic moved again over to 

Backpage. My point there is that we have identified only 137 referrals to NCMEC because the people that were trafficking children 

were smart enough to move their children off our site because we 

have never been, never been a friendly place for criminal activity. 

In fact, when we use guidelines to determine who may be a child 

in an image online, we apply a guideline of 21 years old rather 

than 18 years old just to err on the safe side. Finally, I would just 

like to say that if craigslist, if I could eliminate human trafficking 

and child sexual exploitation on the Internet or in the world, we 

would do it. We would do it in a heartbeat. Who wouldn’t do it? 

With the removal of adult services, like the manual review, what 

has happened is that the ads have migrated to other sites. The evidence of that is clear. The AIM group report that I submitted with 

my testimony demonstrates that. This ALEXA chart that I provided demonstrates that. Consequently, craigslist fears that its 

utility to help combat child exploitation has been grossly diminished. However, we remain willing and able to work with the Committee to do whatever we can to continue to fight this absolutely 

horrific problem. Thank you. 

[The prepared statement of Ms. McDougall follows:] 

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PREPARED STATEMENT OF ELIZABETH L. ‘‘LIZ’’ MCDOUGALL


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Mr. SCOTT. Thank you. I understand, Mr. Sensley, do you have 

to leave shortly. 

Chief SENSLEY. Sir, I have made other arrangements. Thank you. 

Mr. SCOTT. Okay. Thank you. Then I will recognize myself for 5 

minutes. And I will begin with Mr. Powell. Mr. Powell, you made 

a promise to monitor posting. Is it logistically possible, with the 

number of postings to actually review on an individual basis postings on your site? 

Mr. POWELL. Are you referring to the content that appears after 

we removed the adult services category? 

Mr. SCOTT. Either way. 


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Mr. POWELL. We have a number of technological measures that 

are used, along with some manual review that we feel does a good 

job at ensuring that the content that had previously appeared in 

the manually reviewed adult services category does not migrate to 

the other categories that appear on our site, the personals categories, other services categories. And, in addition to review by our 

staff of those categories in the past 10 days, the chart that Ms. 

McDougall referred to with respect to increase in traffic on 

Backpage seems to support that. 

Mr. SCOTT. If someone is communicating with craigslist, can you 

identify, technologically identify which computer made that contact? 

Mr. POWELL. Yes. 

Mr. SCOTT. And so you can track the person, if necessary? 

Mr. POWELL. Well, in cases where we have received a request 

from law enforcement, we release the records to the district attorneys, to the police officers, to the FBI agents and they use the information we capture to do that tracking. 

Ms. MCDOUGALL. I can further elaborate if that is helpful. 

Mr. SCOTT. Okay. 

Ms. MCDOUGALL. What craigslist can provide is the e-mail address and IP address of the person that posted the ad. Craigslist 

can’t from there identify the specific computer or individual. What 

you do then is contact, you can identify online who the service provider is for that IP address, and you can contact the service provider and get from them the information as to who owns that IP 

address. Law enforcement can do it by subpoena. You can do it in 

a civil suit by subpoena as well. 

Mr. SCOTT. Ms. Hakes what laws apply to Internet providers like 

craigslist that would make them criminally liable for the postings? 

Ms. HAKES. Mr. Chairman, I am not aware of any laws that 

would make them liable, unless there was evidence that craigslist 

was a participant specifically, whether they were, for example, conspiring with those who were misusing their site, that is, knowingly 

conspiring to violate the laws. What we have seen in the past—— 

Mr. SCOTT. What about if they are not actively conspiring? What 

about just intentional neglect? Or they just don’t care? 

Ms. HAKES. Mr. Chairman, I am not aware of any Federal statutes anyway with respect to neglect being the standard. In Federal 

law, the standard for prosecution would be knowing or willful. And 

when you are talking about in cases that have come up, the investigations that have been done by the FBI and others, I am not 

aware of anything that shows us that craigslist might be criminally 

liable. 

Mr. SCOTT. Well I’m not talking about just craigslist. I’m talking 

about any of them. If there are no laws on the books now, are there 

any potential laws we could put on the books that would pass constitutional muster that would be helpful in tracking down people 

that make these postings? 

Ms. HAKES. Mr. Chairman, the Department of Justice would be 

more than happy to work with the Committee and consult with you 

on whether or not there are tools with respect to the topic that 

you’re discussing. However, I would say that I believe that at this 

point, we have the proper tools. We have what we need to prosVerDate Aug 31 2005 11:45 Jan 12, 2011 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00221 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6601 H:\WORK\CRIME\091510\58250.000 HJUD1 PsN: DOUGA
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ecute the guilty, that is, the people who are using the Internet, and 

it isn’t just craigslist and of course it isn’t just prostitution of children, it is sexual exploitation of children in all its forms. Many 

predators, many of those who would prey on children, utilize the 

Internet, misuse the Internet in order to prey on those children, to 

traffic in child pornography, to advertise children for child prostitution. And I don’t think anyone would here would propose closing 

the Internet. 

Mr. SCOTT. You have two parts of this transaction. One is the 

posting of the availability of the children, and the other is of the 

demand side. Are there any efforts to essentially set people up so 

that anyone who goes on the Internet searching for people can get 

ensnared in a sting operation? 

Ms. HAKES. Yes, sir, Mr. Chairman. As a matter of fact, over the 

last year, in the western district of Missouri, Operation Guardian 

Angel has en in effect, and that is a law enforcement operation utilizing Internet service providers like craigslist to post adds suggesting that they have children who are underage that they would 

provide for sex. In Operation Guardian Angel, several people answered the ads. Several people made arrangements over the telephone to meet with who they thought would be underage children 

for sex and they were prosecuted for those crimes. And some of 

them received—— 

Mr. SCOTT. And what is the typical penalty when they get 

caught? 

Ms. HAKES. They received very substantial sentences depending 

on the crime under which they were prosecuted. It ranges anywhere, as I said in my earlier statement for trafficking in children 

and child exploitation could be as little as 5 years. It could be as 

many as life. 

Mr. SCOTT. The Dateline NBC with Chris Hansen—— 

Ms. HAKES. To Catch a Predator, yes, sir. 

Mr. SCOTT. The penalties that they publish are in the matter of 

a months, a couple of months; is that not typical? 

Ms. HAKES. No, sir. That would be State and local. In my experience, when I was assistant district attorney, some of the charges 

that are utilized in State and local offenses for enticing a child in 

certain jurisdictions might be misdemeanors. In Federal law however, it is a felony. And enticing a child over the Internet carries 

a mandatory minimum penalty of 10 years in prison. 

Mr. SCOTT. Now how much cooperation is there, Federal State 

and local law enforcement in these investigations and prosecutions? 

Ms. HAKES. Well, as I said in my statement, we are very strongly 

supportive of the Innocence Lost National Initiative. We believe 

that it has been extremely successful. And one of the things that 

we are doing in the National Strategy for Child Exploitation, Prevention and Interdiction, is working with all of our partners, community-based, law enforcement-based, industry-based, in order to 

establish what are the best practices that we are all engaging in, 

expanding our cooperation and collaboration with respect to child 

exploitation, and we are looking into whether or not the Innocence 

Lost National Initiative should be expanded from 38 task forces 

and working groups that exist now to more areas across the country. 

217 

But I would say that where we have the Innocence Lost National 

Initiative Task Forces and working groups they are very successful. 

Since 2003 we have located over 1,100 children and federally and 

State we have prosecuted more than 600 offenders who have received some very substantial sentences. 

Mr. SCOTT. Thank you. Mr. Poe. 

Mr. POE. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate you responding 

so quickly to a letter I wrote requesting this hearing based upon 

the fact that so many victims groups had contacted me and other 

Members of Congress. So I appreciate that. 

Ms. Frundt, thank you for being here. You are to be admired. 

People like you are really important to solving problems, and I admire you for your courage just to come here and talk to Congress 

and tell your story. So thank you very much for being here. 

Craigslist, it is good to hear that this site has been shut down. 

We want to make that clear, that y’all have done that. Is that correct, Mr. Powell? 

Mr. POWELL. That is correct, yes. 

Mr. POE. Good. There are many issues. You have all talked about 

the problems and the issues. I am concerned as a former judge and 

prosecutor, about the victim. The girl, the young lady is not a 

criminal. But yet in our State courts, because of different reasons 

and excuses, they are still treated like criminals. To get into the 

system, to get any kind of treatment they are treated like criminals 

in the domestic trafficking. International trafficking there are some 

services. We have to fix that problem. We have a social duty to fix 

that problem so the things that happened to Ms. Frundt do not 

continue to happen to young women in our country. 

The people involved, besides the victim, you have got the trafficker, and you may have been present when I made comments 

about what ought to happen to traffickers, at least what a Texas 

Ranger thinks ought to happen to traffickers, Chief Sensley; the old 

comment, well, get a rope. Anyway, but then you have got the consumer. And I think we need to zero in on the consumer who pays 

for this crime, who pays in the sense that they are able to exploit 

children because when there is a market, this crime will continue. 

When there is a buyer, and so we need to make to more difficult 

for the consumer who seems to be, I think, traditionally in this 

type of crime, gets away with it. 

Now, Ms. Hakes, you mentioned the fact that the Missouri U.S. 

Attorneys Office had a project. But I understand they only prosecuted 10 cases; is that correct? 

Ms. HAKES. I am not sure of the exact statistic, Congressman 

Poe. I can get that for you, but it was not a huge number. 

Mr. POE. I think it is 10. Seven pled guilty. So of all of these 

cases happening in the United States, on the Federal level we have 

seven people that pled guilty, because other districts, I’m talking 

about the consumer, the buyer, the john, the other criminal. Is that 

correct? 

Ms. HAKES. No, Congressman Poe. Not exactly. I can’t give you 

the exact number of how many people have pled guilty or been convicted to date, but we have expanded Operation Guardian Angel. 

Other districts are employing some of the same techniques. I don’t 

want to get too much into that in a public hearing. But I can asVerDate Aug 31 2005 11:45 Jan 12, 2011 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00223 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6601 H:\WORK\CRIME\091510\58250.000 HJUD1 PsN: DOUGA
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sure you that the department and a variety of districts in the Nation are pursuing those who pay to sexually assault children. 

Mr. POE. Get me those statistics if you will, because the statistics 

that I have that the Missouri U.S. attorney is the only one that is 

doing this and they got seven out of 10. To me that is not near good 

enough. You know, we talk about the Internet and how it is being 

used by criminals. Well, maybe law enforcement we ought to figure 

out a way to do this. When we capture these consumers, these people that pay for this crime, this service, if they are convicted their 

photographs ought to be on the Internet. We ought to advertise to 

the world who these people are that have exploited young women 

in the United States. 

As a judge, I used to try to do some innovative things. But we 

need to be thinking about how we can use the Internet to advantage of enforcement of the law, because if these guys all of a sudden start seeing their photographs on the Internet they may stop 

this conduct. But anyway, that is a responsibility we have to figure 

out some solutions. 

But Chief, in your district, tell me how you deal with a sexually 

exploited child that has been trafficked and you come in contact 

with her. Do you all file on her for prostitution? What happens in 

the domestic situation? 

Chief SENSLEY. Well, Congressman Poe, part of the problem is 

that there is a lack of resources when it comes down to the contact 

of the victim of this crime. As it stands, most of the work that I 

have been doing in northern California has been out of Congressman Lungren’s district in the Sacramento region because it is one 

of our most prolific areas where this is going on at a tremendous 

rate and spreading throughout that region. We have four multi disciplinary task force of local, Federal, State enforcement agencies 

and a multitude of non governmental agencies to respond to the 

problem. 

Fortunately, there are a few nonprofit organizations that are, 

have come into play, like Courage House out of the Sacramento 

area to provide a place for these victims to go to, which is part of 

the problem, because if we can’t get them out of the law enforcement context, in order to remove them from the environment which 

they are preyed upon then they go right back into the system because they find that it is a hopeless environment. 

So, in effect, we are really at a struggling point, having effective 

laws and tools to really deal with the perpetrators because, as you 

mentioned earlier, oftentimes at the State and local level there is 

a 1-month or a 2-month penalty for the pimps who are, in fact, better classified as traffickers. And that is a cost of doing business for 

them. They are willing to suffer that for the hundreds of thousands 

of dollars that they can draw in from this on an annual basis. So 

in effect, we are struggling when it really comes to it for lack of 

resources, for a lack of places, quite frankly, and that is a significant issue to turn these victims away from the system. 

And so it keeps officers from having to put them into the justice 

system as criminals just as an attempt to remove them from their 

victimization. But, again, as I stated earlier, it becomes a matter 

of revictimizing in another way. 

219 

Mr. POE. One last question, if I may, Mr. Chairman, on this 

issue. We have a lot of work to do. But we need to make it so that 

the consumer, or the buyer and the trafficker, it is not a cost of 

business. The penalty is too great for them to stay in business. But 

more importantly, I think that we need to find and take care of 

these young women, these victims, whether it is on the State or 

local level and find a way where they don’t lose hope and have 

their spirits broken because of the crime that has been continued 

to be committed against them. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. SCOTT. The gentlelady from Texas. 

Ms. JACKSON LEE. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, for this 

hearing, and to the Ranking Member. And I would like to connect 

to my friend and colleague from Texas and build on the testimony. 

Forgive me for being delayed and not being able to hear all of the 

testimony. But many of you I am familiar with, and I am also a 

speed reader to assess some of the comments that you have made. 

So first of all, let me thank you for the work that you do. I chair 

the Congressional Children’s Caucus and we have looked at these 

issues, and I have been engaged with Ernie Allen for a number of 

years, both in my own district and here in Washington, D.C. 

Let me pay tribute not only to Tina Frundt, who I’ll ask a question, but to a constituent of mine by the name of Catherine Griffin, 

who struggles in my own community, Chief Sensley, if I am reading it correctly, to the question of resources. And so you hit the nail 

on the head. And as I ask the Chairman’s indulgence, let me first 

begin, Chief Sensley, I am reading it instead of looking down. Let 

me first of all speak to Mr. Powell and thank him for his presence 

here. What we would like to think is when witnesses come, that, 

as Members pose questions we are being provocative so we can secure real answers to the problem. And my first question, since 

craigslist has such a brand, and I think you would agree, media 

has its way of interpretation. And you would agree that the last 

month was not a good public exposure for craigslist. 

People are only led, good or bad, by what they see. And the first 

initial response appeared to be stonewalling, lack of response, and 

it gave all of us a bad taste in our mouth. I think the real question 

is, as we look, because you now can stand as an example for a lot 

of Internet sites and Web sites and other levels of technology that 

continue to proliferate. What took you so long to immediately stop? 

How can we be convinced that when the heat goes away, the material results of income, value that you get from these services does 

not find itself back on your site? 

And the last question to you is, I had the impression that you 

took off adult services, but individuals migrated to other sites on 

craigslist and are just proliferating and having a good time. I gave 

you three questions but I’d appreciate, I hope that you can remember them. Otherwise I will try to remember them and call them 

again. 

Mr. POWELL. To respond to the first question regarding the timing, I don’t have the specific information about why September 3 

was selected. But I can assure the Members of the Committee and 

others that we do not have any intention to restore that category. 

I think there is a sense that in some ways, taking that step may 

be a step backward in terms of addressing some of the core causes 

220 

of the issue. My hope is that the migration that we have seen of 

these particular ads to other Web sites, and it is not to other parts 

of craigslist. We have seen some fairly strong indications that the 

measures we have taken and are continuing to take have prevented 

that. 

But the other sites that have been mentioned previously, we 

would hope that they continue to adopt some of the practices that 

craigslist has had in place for a number of years, including working 

collaboratively with the National Center for Missing and Exploited 

Children, providing reporting mechanisms, working closely with 

law enforcement. 

Ms. JACKSON LEE. I don’t want to cut you off but I have a short 

time and I may be overlapping. No amount of money is going to 

cause craigslist to reinstitute in another name this kind of site. 

Mr. POWELL. I can’t answer that directly because I am not directly involved with the decision-making process for that. But what 

I can tell you is that—— 

Ms. JACKSON LEE. Mr. Powell, please. I recognize layers of responsibility, and I am keeping a tone of respect because I understand you are a representative. Mr. Powell, please. No amount of 

money will cause you to reinstate that site? And are you suggesting 

to me that business decisions and judgments may play into this 

site coming back again? I have already given you compliments for 

being a standard bearer for change, but now I am hearing that it 

might come back again. 

Mr. POWELL. No, no. What I am saying is that we do not have 

any intention to bring that category back, and that money is not 

a consideration as we make our decisions. 

Ms. JACKSON LEE. Chief Sensley, where does that place you? And 

what then do we need to do in Congress? You see, we have a tough 

challenge of the First Amendment. And I could be categorized very 

openly so as a progressive in a dilemma. But let me tell you what 

my position is. Shut them down, period. But when you hear the answer of Mr. Powell, who I respect, and he has indicated as best he 

could, but what does that say about the potential proliferation of 

these sites elsewhere, which plays into your work, I take it. 

Chief SENSLEY. It does. Ma’am, it plays very significantly into 

this work. And to the credit of craigslist, I will agree that they 

have made significant strides and provided tremendous resources 

in terms of when the problem is brought to their attention and a 

request for assistance. On the other hand, we do have a difficult 

task. You have a difficult task when it comes to the legislative of 

piece of it because of our, as it goes, freedom has its price. However, I would like to hear the affirmative response that says this 

will not come back under any circumstances, which I think was the 

answer that you were looking for. 

Ms. JACKSON LEE. I was. And Chief, and I would ask the Chairman if I could have an additional minute. I hope I can speak quickly. He is yielding. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. This is 

an excellent hearing. Let me just go back so you can say on record 

again. You mentioned the word ‘‘resources.’’ Why don’t you say it 

again. You need more resources to do what? 

Chief SENSLEY. We need resources to train and educate law enforcement. We need resources to provide for shelters and a place 

221 

to get these children off the street and away from being put into 

the system as criminals. And that has to be done outside of the justice system with our non law enforcement partners like Ms. Frundt 

has just spoken to very eloquently in terms of the need there. That 

is where we need resources. We also need resources to allow law 

enforcement the time to invest in this, because this is not the type 

of crime that is driven by, its driven by time and investment of follow up and follow through and recognition that we have to do this 

in a victim centered approach rather than trying to complete an investigation so that we can get it before the prosecutor. We have to 

keep the individuals who have been victimized at the center of this 

effort. That takes time and resources. 

Ms. JACKSON LEE. Let me thank you. Let me move quickly to 

Ernie Allen, who I remember when we were first confronting the 

issue of HIV/AIDS. Everybody was whispering. Until we took it to 

the national level of exposure, billboards, everyone speaking about 

it around the coffee pot, in hallways and byways and local community houses, et cetera. That people began to be comfortable with acknowledging I was HIV infected or acknowledging that I need help. 

I notice some of the recommendations that you have made. You’ve 

been very good with the organization on getting us to understand 

missing, abused. Exploited is not an understandable word. So here 

is my point. You have got four points here that I see that can be 

meshed into legislation. I know there is some legislation Members 

have spoken about that I will be reading. But it seems to talk 

about taking this to another level. We need people talking about 

that these have are and not criminals. We need to be able to say 

to the Federal Government, it is worthy of your enhanced involvement. And we have already talked about resources. And then the 

only way that you get communities talking about this is that you 

put this right up to them. You put this right to their faces, principals and teachers and school boards and pastors and others. 

Ernie, what do you say about that? And have we done that? 

Mr. ALLEN. We have not done that. I think we have begun to do 

that. One of the quotes I included in my testimony was a quote 

from a police commanding officer many years ago who said, the 

only way not to find this problem in any community is simply not 

to look for it. I think America has begun to look. But you are exactly right. We have a generation of kids who are sexualized. Many 

of these victims become compliant. You know, what we have got to 

do is educate the American people. And you are exactly right. 

Using the HIV/AIDs example, we have educated America and responded to the challenge over tobacco. We have responded in terms 

of seatbelts and car seats. 

Ms. JACKSON LEE. There you go. 

Mr. ALLEN. This is going to require social change and it is going 

to require enormous public awareness because these kids are hidden victims. 

Ms. JACKSON LEE. Let me have just great respect for the smokers 

in America because they are there and they have their rights. But 

I know they would raise their hand and say boy, it is pretty uncomfortable to be smoking in America because of the communities 

sense, this is what Judge Poe is speaking of. 

222 

Besides, I didn’t mean that—realizing the actor, meaning perpetrator, we have got to make it darn uncomfortable and it is not. 

Mr. Chairman, I just want to pose this question, if I could move 

toward my more personal vision. But let me ask the Department 

of Justice and then just conclude with Tina. 

I heard something that I hope was inaccurate. Maybe I don’t 

have the facts, and it may be some underpinnings of something 

that may be positive. But am I hearing something about Justice 

Department looking at lessening penalties on sex perpetrators, people in porn, or is that what you all are doing? Do you know what 

I am saying? 

Ms. HAKES. Congresswoman Jackson Lee, I am somewhat familiar with what you are talking about. 

Ms. JACKSON LEE. I am against it, but I yield to you. 

Ms. HAKES. Speaking as a prosecutor, Congresswoman Jackson 

Lee, I personally am for heavy penalties on those who exploit children in all their forms, as is the Department of Justice. 

The Attorney General, when he rolled out our National Strategy 

for Child Exploitation, Prevention and Interdiction, said publicly 

that this was more than a crime issue for him. This was a legacy 

issue for him because this was a very important issue to him, and 

we have got to protect the children and prosecute the offenders and 

we are going to continue to do that. 

What you are referring to, I believe, was a letter from someone 

in the Department of Justice to the Sentencing Commission staff 

where he indicated that a review of the child pornography guidelines might be advisable by the Sentencing Commission. But the 

Department has not—and I would be shocked if they did—issued 

any opinions as to saying that the penalties for child exploitation 

should be lessened. We have not done so. 

Ms. JACKSON LEE. I support a wide range of lessening of sentencing, but I can assure you, I hope that we will silence that person in their letter writing, not in any other way, but to silence that 

letter and to extinguish it before it gets to any place of review. 

I want to conclude, and unless anyone else wants to comment, 

but Ms. Frundt, I have legislation that deals with retaining the 

DNA of sexual predators in a bank focused on child sexual predators, but in any event a DNA bank, so that Chief Sensley can computer in if he gets someone and it pops up that this individual was 

in Iowa 5 months ago with the same kind of behavior. 

Chief, you understand? And it is a question of whether we have 

that finite system, because you could go into a big DNA bank and 

be there forever, but if you had it separated by the fact that this 

was a perpetrator of children’s crimes. 

However, you were a victim as well and have come forward. Can 

you just share with us what you think the single thing is—you 

have heard a lot of what the Federal Government can do. You have 

heard about the children aspect and you heard craigslist. Do we 

need to have people rise up and accept their good citizenship and 

say they will not have these kind of sites on any form of public, 

if you will—when I say ‘‘public,’’ a commercial enterprise, where 

people are making money off of sex crimes. 

Ms. FRUNDT. I think it is very difficult to shut down every site 

that is on the Net. You shut down one and there will be another 

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one. However, I truly agree with the Chief here saying if we are 

going to have these sites, let’s do investigations properly. Again, I 

am not exaggerating when I say Myspace, every pimp has a 

Myspace page. We know this. If we are giving them the information, printing it out, giving them the Web sites, how to contact 

them, so let’s do an investigation off of that. Let’s collect—why are 

service providers collecting all this information, giving it to the police? Shouldn’t they be taking that response and doing it themselves to create cases? We basically helped create these cases of 

finding out information, collecting all the data that the police need 

to make sure they actually prosecute and do what they are supposed to and not hold the children on a material witness warrant 

in jail. And so let’s take that up. 

And I would be honest and tell you this. It is difficult for the police. They don’t have the funding and the resources as well for it, 

but it shouldn’t be an excuse. 

Ms. JACKSON LEE. So taking it to the next level of exposure nationally, where people realize that this is a crime against humanity—— 

Ms. FRUNDT. Yes. 

Ms. JACKSON LEE. The resource question to help the Chief build 

cases and the point about the child is not—or the person is not the 

victim. But I would expect you would say it would be pretty good 

to make the perpetrator, the offender, very uncomfortable and that 

society would almost extinguish it being credible for somebody to 

act in that behavior. 

Ms. FRUNDT. You know, we mention all these cases where traffickers have gotten really high sentences around the country and 

around the United States. In Minneapolis, they have done it, here 

in D.C. Where a trafficker got life. You didn’t hear one time about 

the criminals who abused the child, who bought sex from the child 

anytime at all. There wasn’t a mention in any of these cases whatsoever one time where they actually went after the man who raped 

the child, and so we really need to—I think we have a misconception that these men are men who have a little bit of money and 

they have lower jobs—no, that’s not true. Maybe we get afraid because of who they are, we don’t want to shed the light on that. 

Ms. JACKSON LEE. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I could pursue 

this. 

Mr. SCOTT. We are going to have another round of questions. 

Ms. JACKSON LEE. Oh, you are, okay. Well, let me just thank 

you, Mr. Chairman, for indulging. And I support a lot of the framework which I think we can also operate beyond the other legislative 

initiatives that have been placed before us. Thank you all for your 

testimony. Thank you, panel, very much. 

Mr. SCOTT. Thank you. I have just a couple of other questions. 

Mr. Powell, just in the news the other day, when it was reported 

about you taking down the site, you mentioned something about 

the international site might not have been taken down, the Adult 

Services. Can you tell me what they were talking about? 

Mr. POWELL. There are remaining erotic services categories outside of the United States, including Canada. I think Ms. McDougall 

might be able to speak more effectively to that, because to my unVerDate Aug 31 2005 11:45 Jan 12, 2011 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00229 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6601 H:\WORK\CRIME\091510\58250.000 HJUD1 PsN: DOUGA
224 

derstanding there are a number of issues country by country, as 

well as legal issues for that. 

I can tell you that something on the order of 97 percent of our 

viewers and use is within the United States and Canada. 

Mr. SCOTT. Can a United States person access a foreign craigslist 

site? 

Mr. POWELL. Yes. Anyone, anywhere, can access any craigslist 

site anywhere. 

Mr. SCOTT. So what is the significance of taking down the site 

in the United States? 

Mr. POWELL. Well, the site in the United States was set up—and 

again, Ms. McDougall can probably explain this more effectively— 

as part of an arrangement with a series of Attorneys General back 

in last year, and I think the intent was to do a number of things: 

capture credit card information, capture phone information. We decided on September 3rd to remove that category and, again, have 

no intention of returning—— 

Mr. SCOTT. If I am in Washington, D.C. And accessing the Canadian site, can I advertise services that would be available in Washington, D.C., on the Canadian site? 

Mr. POWELL. Yes, you could, but there would be virtually no 

value whatsoever because the individuals who view the site, say, 

in Montreal, are living in Montreal. 

Mr. SCOTT. How about someone in Washington, D.C. Viewing the 

Canadian site? 

Mr. POWELL. I am not sure I understand. 

Mr. SCOTT. You said you could access any site from anywhere. 

Mr. POWELL. Correct. 

Mr. SCOTT. Within Washington, D.C., accessing the Canadian 

site, can I see the ad posted there by someone offering services in 

Washington, D.C.? 

Mr. POWELL. Yes, you can. If you are in Washington, D.C., can 

you see the site in Montreal? 

Mr. SCOTT. Right. 

Mr. POWELL. Yes. 

Mr. SCOTT. Can I post services that would be available in Washington, D.C., on the Montreal site? 

Mr. POWELL. Yes. But again, the utility is virtually zero because 

the traffic that views the Web pages for Montreal or Seattle or 

Miami are local populations. So if I were to place an ad for Washington, D.C., for something that I was selling or a job or, in this 

case, a services ad in another city, there would be no value whatsoever because nobody near me is a patron of that. 

Mr. SCOTT. How long would it take people to figure out that the 

site that they were to be looking at is the Canadian site? 

Mr. POWELL. That I can’t answer. But what I can tell you from, 

again, my impression of what has been happening over the past 10 

days is that the people who are creating these ads, who had previously used the Adult Services ads, have decided that there is no 

value in using craigslist anymore. So they are moving to other 

sites. 

Mr. SCOTT. Mr. Sensley, you indicated that this was so prevalent. 

If the ads are there as big as day for everybody to notice, why 

225 

aren’t you stinging people right and left, both the people that are 

putting on the ads and the people that are responding to such ads? 

Chief SENSLEY. Mr. Chairman, there are a number of things that 

are going on in various cities around the country utilizing the various Web sites that are advertising this behavior. Quite frankly, 

the problem is, if law enforcement resources were to have a fractional impact upon it, then it would draw upon nearly every resource in every department in order to do it. It is that large. What 

it really comes down to it, Mr. Chairman, the craigslist is really 

one of many, and again, to their credit, not nearly the worst when 

it comes to down to this problem. 

Mr. SCOTT. You are saying if you went on a sting operation, you 

would be just catching people right and left? 

Chief SENSLEY. Sooner or later they catch on to us. Law enforcement, as it is, Mr. Chairman, is—— 

Mr. SCOTT. There ought to be some risk in posting such an ad. 

There ought to be some risk in posting such an ad. 

Chief SENSLEY. Absolutely, but the the risk is not there now, sir. 

Mr. SCOTT. Well, that is because there is no one stinging people. 

I mean, the police officers are not responding to the ads, setting up 

meetings. 

Mr. ALLEN. There actually—there are some. Philadelphia police 

just did a sting targeting craigslist users. A Polk County, Florida 

sheriff just did a sting. Clearly one of the messages here from a lot 

of these ads is they have ceased to be subtle. They are blatant, they 

are overt. And on that basis, I think a reasonable case can be made 

that there is knowing and intentional selling of services via the 

Internet. So I think there could possibly be criminal jurisdiction. 

Even under the Communications Decency Act, there is just civil 

immunity. There is not criminal immunity. 

Mr. SCOTT. If the ad is there, why can’t we create some risk in 

even posting the ad by having the police respond to the ads and 

figuring out who posted it and catching them and prosecuting? 

Mr. ALLEN. I think that is happening. I just don’t think it is happening widely enough. 

Mr. SCOTT. Wasn’t it the prosecutors—DOJ, is it a matter of resources? 

Ms. HAKES. Mr. Chairman, I believe that we have a decent 

record of success—in fact, I would call it an excellent record of success—since 2003 with our Innocence Lost National Initiative. It is 

not inconsiderable to say that we have prosecuted more than 600 

offenders at the State and local level and recovered more than 

1,100 children. So while I would agree with Mr. Allen and Chief 

Sensley, and in fact, we agree on our National Strategy in the document—— 

Mr. SCOTT. Well, 600 is about on the magnitude of one per congressional district, one and a half maybe per congressional district, 

and this is something that is just widespread and notorious. You 

ought to be catching people in every city and town. 

Ms. HAKES. Mr. Chairman, I would say, as we concede in the National Strategy, child exploitation, generally, is at an epidemic 

level: child pornography, trafficking, as well as the commercial exploitation of children. It is one of the reasons that we have recommitted ourselves to this fight against child exploitation. We have 

226 

launched a National Strategy Working Group. We are working with 

our partners to develop ideas—— 

Mr. SCOTT. Let me ask, Mr. Sensley, if you decided to set up a 

sting, how long would it take you to catch somebody? 

Chief SENSLEY. Mr. Chairman, quite frankly, it doesn’t take very 

long in terms of—well, long is relative. 

Mr. SCOTT. Half an hour? 

Chief SENSLEY. Well, it would take half an hour for someone to 

hit, or less than that. Someone would hit on the interest that is 

being put out before them. But it may take several hours to actually make contact and be able to bring that person to justice. So 

for one person, it could be a day-long operation to bring one person 

down. They hit on these—— 

Mr. SCOTT. If you went on the Internet and within a day you 

would have some somebody caught, right? So you so it every day, 

you are talking about one person, one police officer; by the end of 

the year we have 300? 

Chief SENSLEY. Mr. Chairman, in theory that is possible, one person a day. However, it takes more than one police officer to do it, 

and the resources on the average drain most police departments in 

focusing on this alone. 

Mr. SCOTT. Well, once you start going after people, presumably 

you would have less of a problem because people would feel that 

there would be some risk involved. 

Chief SENSLEY. I agree, Mr. Chairman. I certainly hope that that 

is the direction we are going. 

Mr. SCOTT. Let me ask two other questions. 

Ms. Frundt, what services do the victims need and how much do 

these services cost? 

Ms. FRUNDT. I think that is a very important question because 

we have been mentioning all these ways that could happen or the 

1,100 victims in Philadelphia, Florida. I would like to say how 

many receive additional services, how many are still receiving victim services, how many were placed in housing programs? 

So, when we do these rates, I am going to have to go with Chief 

Sensley when he said you do these raids, you are going to need 

services, 110 percent. This is not something that you need 2 years 

now or 6 months until the case is over. This is continuous services, 

not just housing. But if you can’t—again, there are small amounts 

of housing. So you are doing housing. You definitely still need direct services through outreach, a hotline, 24-hour care because 

these victims—this is not nine to five. So after 5 o’clock when they 

are having issues at home, who are they going to call? 

So when we saw these cases, and there are Innocence Lost, 

which I am very familiar with—how many receive services? How 

many were not detained for their own safety? 

Mr. SCOTT. What kind of services are needed and how much do 

the services cost? 

Ms. FRUNDT. To run a group home is $600,000 a year. For a 

month of services that is not in a group home would be about 

$5,000 a month for one child and that includes everything, all services, all trauma care, long-term care. 

Chief SENSLEY. Mr. Chairman, if I may answer that, that is part 

of the problem in the theoretical aspect of a single operation to 

227 

bring in one person. If there isn’t a place to place the victims, then 

they go back into the system. There has to be a multidisciplinary 

and very collaborative effort. 

Mr. SCOTT. You mentioned the fact that the perpetrators make 

a lot of money. Do you ever get forfeiture—— 

Chief SENSLEY. Yes, that comes out of these types of—— 

Mr. SCOTT. How successful are you in getting—— 

Chief SENSLEY. That forfeiture is generally when we operate on 

the organized crime level. Rarely does it come out on the individual 

level with the, for lack of a better of term, street-level pimps. 

Mr. SCOTT. You can’t get houses and cars? 

Chief SENSLEY. Mr. Chairman, these perpetrators are so skilled 

at squirreling away money and behind different levels, it takes literally years of the court process to even find it. 

Mr. ALLEN. Mr. Chairman, on the customers—we have been 

working with the National Conference of State Legislatures, and a 

number of the State legislatures have been enacting laws providing 

for asset forfeiture, restitution. In a lot of these cases the penalties, 

the criminal penalties aren’t very high, but they are making it 

painful for the customers in these cases. So I think there is enormous benefit in exploring techniques that—and I think it will also 

create deterrence and attack the demand side by making it hurt for 

these guys, even if it is only financial, and they can help pay for 

the necessary treatment and the necessary follow-up that these victims need. 

Mr. SCOTT. Let me ask one final question. What preventive services, prevention initiatives, can we pursue that would reduce the 

chances that young children would get involved in this? Ms. 

Tiapula? 

Ms. TIAPULA. Thank you, Chairman. The prevention needs to 

look at systems approaches. We need to be talking about child protection. We need to look at the funding status for juvenile justice 

and criminal justice, which right now do not work together as they 

should on this issue. Our children are in foster care. We need to 

be working with the foster care system. 

The prevention options are there. We know the children who become victims of trafficking, and right now we criminalize them as 

adolescents instead of providing services at an earlier age and looking at gaps in systems. 

Ms. RICHARDSON. Mr. Chairman, if I may, I want to underscore 

two points. One that you just made is that what we have found, 

that both parents who are responsible for the care and protection 

of children are not working together. So we could eliminate a lot 

of redundancy if we would all coordinate the services and realize 

that it is in our vested interest to work together. 

The second point I want to make is underscore, Tina, what you 

were saying. Our analysis has shown that if we were doing analysis of what it would take to house and care for young women in 

a specialized facility, it would be less than what it takes for that 

young woman to be held in juvenile detention. 

Mr. SCOTT. Thank you. Mr. Poe. 

Mr. POE. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

It seems to me that we might be able to figure out a way that 

the solicitation itself, with the intent to induce a minor child and 

228 

under the Mann Act, with the intent to induce—in other words, 

you don’t have to actually induce the child; but with the intent, you 

place the ad, that makes it a Federal offense. So we might need 

to work on something that we already have under the Mann Act 

to make inducement a crime, without having to go through the entire process that you mentioned, Chief, that takes a lot of work. So 

the placing of the ad may come under that purview as well. 

We have several issues. We have a cultural issue where we, as 

a culture, have to realize that these young ladies, for the most part, 

are crime victims. They are victims. They are not criminals. 

We have the second issue of making sure that these young victims understand that they are going to be treated as a victim, so 

that they don’t lose hope when they are in a situation where they 

feel like, even if I tell somebody, they are going to treat me like 

a criminal. So we have to remove that stigma that they understand 

that we as a culture are going to treat them as crime victims. 

And then down the road, we have got to have a lot of resources, 

and that is part of the problem why, in my opinion, not a whole 

lot has been done, because it is going to take a lot of money to rescue these people that are in the situation and take care of them. 

So we want to do something I think to make the situation better, 

not worse, not make it more difficult, and let the criminals know 

that they are not going to be able to get away with this. We are 

going to go after them with everything that we can and to put 

them out of business and make them pay; and, as you said, Mr. 

Allen, the price is too heavy. They will go out of business because 

the penalty is too great. And that includes the trafficker, includes 

the person that wants to use this as the demand, the ‘‘john’’ as we 

call them, and I still like the idea of posting their photographs on 

the Internet. 

So anyway, thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back. 

Mr. SCOTT. Thank you. Gentlelady from Texas. 

Ms. JACKSON LEE. Mr. Chairman, I think as we conclude this 

hearing, what we have gleaned is what we all knew I guess coming 

in, is that this is not a victimless crime, and that the rich or comfortable persons, whoever it might be that is engaging, whatever 

category they fall in, are not doing—in essence, they are doing 

harm. They are not harmless. It is not harmless. 

And it seems to me that for, if you will, throughout our history 

sex crimes have been viewed as just harmless, or it is the victim’s 

fault or their parents gave them away so they could be utilized. So 

I believe it is crucial that we raise the ante on the heinousness of 

this crime, and as the judge indicated and as the Chairman indicated, that no one would get away. 

Ms. Frundt qualified her costs. Chief, throw out a number because Chairman Scott made a good point, and I really appreciate 

the work of the Justice Department. It is resource-based, but that 

is about one child per congressional district; and add the Senate 

with a hundred Senators, and I know that we are probably not 

touching, even minimal, the depth of the problem in this country 

alone. 

Chief, what would it take because you are one police department? We haven’t heard from New York’s police department. We 

haven’t heard from Chicago, major cities. You are in a smaller 

229 

area, but California is big, and we certainly haven’t heard from 

Texas yet. What would be the cost on the law enforcement side and 

outside of the Federal side? 

Chief SENSLEY. Madam Congresswoman, I would like to be able 

to give you an exact figure, but I will say that I agree that an example needs to be made, as the Chairman was emphasizing as 

well, that if we get out there and we start stinging them, the word 

will get out and it will make a difference. 

Ms. JACKSON LEE. I won’t hold you to it, but if you had so much 

more money, you would be able to do—make a better dent. 

Chief SENSLEY. I would say that if in the Sacramento region, 

with the resources I know are available and willing and standing 

by to try and make a difference, to give us a 1-year period and a 

minimum of $2 million to make it happen, we will provide that—— 

Ms. JACKSON LEE. What is the population you would be covering? 

Chief SENSLEY. We would be covering for this particular region. 

And the multicounty cooperation that we currently have in this, we 

are looking at a population area in excess of 10 million people. 

Ms. JACKSON LEE. Well, I won’t come back at you and hold you 

to that number, but you said a very important point. This probably 

works better if there is collaboration over jurisdictional lines: counties, cities. And therefore you could make the argument to the Federal Government and the taxpayer that I will leverage the money. 

Is that what you are saying? 

Chief SENSLEY. Yes, ma’am. 

Ms. JACKSON LEE. Because that is very important. 

Chief SENSLEY. Very important. And for the Eastern District of 

California, where we are currently working out of the U.S. Attorney’s Office, with their leadership there, we again stretch into a 

minimum of half a dozen counties that are currently on board and 

ready to be a part of a strategic, collaborative effort to combat this 

problem. 

Ms. JACKSON LEE. Would a DNA database that would take you 

directly to the list of perpetrators that dealt with just specifically 

child victims, would that be helpful to narrow to that extent? 

Chief SENSLEY. Yes, ma’am, it would be very helpful. 

Ms. JACKSON LEE. Let me go back to Mr. Powell again and just 

give you the scenario that the Chairman was leading you to. 

You said 97 percent of the utilization is Canada and the United 

States. So that means that we are in the big side. The 3 percent, 

we don’t diminish, but it is certainly smaller than 97. That means 

that Canada is a big player in craigslist. Is that my understanding, 

a big part of your consumer base? 

Mr. POWELL. Yes. 

Ms. JACKSON LEE. The challenge that you have and the disagreement that I have with you is that we are in a fluid and fairly mobile society, and so I disagree that it being on Canada with no restrictions—and certainly that is Canada, a sovereign Nation—poses 

an incidence problem. So I am really going to ask the question for 

you to take back to owners and leadership, and certainly, the idea 

of cooperation looks like a treaty issue or diplomatic question to 

Canada, because they are a sovereign Nation. 

But the fact that craigslist is on or has these Adult Services in 

Canada, it just means that I get on and I am able to read this, and 

230 

as I am able to read it, I move around. That is our neighbor. So 

I am going to ask you to find out the logistics of how Craigs relates 

to this issue in Canada. I would like a response back to the Committee, because I am going to ask something that you are obviously 

are not going to be able to answer—is they should shut down in 

Canada. I am obviously reaching at this point. 

But what I am saying to you is that that seems like an accessible, easy reach for someone in the United States to be able to 

take advantage of, and it looks like you are pointing toward your 

attorney and it looks like you would like to say something. Let me 

yield to you. 

Mr. POWELL. That was the statement I was going to make. I 

would defer to Ms. McDougall because, as I said earlier, there are 

some legal issues. 

Ms. JACKSON LEE. Ms. McDougall. 

Ms. MCDOUGALL. Craigslist, including myself, have actively been 

meeting and in communications with the RCMP in Canada, the officers that are leading their anti-trafficking child exploitation endeavors. At this point, they have different considerations. They are 

a sovereign nation. We have don’t believe that it is appropriate for 

the U.S. Policy to dictate what Canada’s policy should be with respect to craigslist Web site and Adult Services. We are actively engaged in those discussions with Canada. 

Ms. JACKSON LEE. Let me finish on this note. Do you have a contract between craigslist and the Canadian Government? 

Ms. MCDOUGALL. No. 

Ms. JACKSON LEE. Okay. So you are a private business, and my 

understanding is that a private business sells what it wants to sell. 

So I don’t understand the legal oversight that Canada has to tell 

a private business that I am going to just not provide you—because 

we all know, and we have heard, you could go to other sites, other 

various venues. But if craigslist, the business, said I am not willing 

to have this line item, Adult Services, what is the jeopardy as it 

relates to the Canadian Government and law? 

Ms. MCDOUGALL. Well, let’s be clear that even in the United 

States, there isn’t a contract between craigslist and the government, and there isn’t currently, as was indicated, a law to force 

craigslist to—— 

Ms. JACKSON LEE. Right. And you did it on your own. You pulled 

it down on your own, absolutely right. You ceded to public opinion 

and pressure, and thank you for that. Why can’t you take it off 

Canada? 

Ms. MCDOUGALL. My point with Canada is we believe that it 

needs to be a decision in collaboration with the Canadian authorities as to whether or not to do that. And that is not a request that 

has been discussed with them at this point. We are working actively with them to address their concerns, but so far, the U.S. Has 

told us that—various Attorneys General have told us that they 

wanted it shut down here. If Canada wants a different solution, we 

need to to respect that. 

Ms. JACKSON LEE. I think I probably won’t be able to pursue this 

much longer, Mr. Chairman, but let me just say I disagree with 

you. I think if a business—if GM decides not to sell their most profitable vehicle in Canada because they want it only to be for AmeriVerDate Aug 31 2005 11:45 Jan 12, 2011 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00236 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6601 H:\WORK\CRIME\091510\58250.000 HJUD1 PsN: DOUGA
231 

cans—obviously that is a bad example—but I think they make a 

business decision that they want to keep whatever it is here to sell. 

It is not an equal example, but I do think it is a business judgment 

that the company makes. 

I think the other side of the coin is that what you might be getting is that the government would ask, Well, why are you doing it, 

and may make some kind of plea or make some kind of statement, 

whether it be positive or hostile, why are you taking it down? But 

that has not happened. I don’t see the basis of negotiating with the 

government on a private entity that can take it down. 

Ms. MCDOUGALL. The reason—there is an actual answer to that, 

and that is that not everybody, as we have seen in some of the materials we submitted, a lot of advocacy groups think that taking 

down Adult Services was the wrong thing to do, setting aside the 

issue that it gives nowhere for legitimate Adult Services to have a 

forum. A lot of the advocacy groups feel very disappointed because 

it is much more difficult to find the victims now dispersed on these 

other sites that are noncooperative. So craigslist made the decision 

to do it here, but that does not mean it is the company’s position 

that this is the right move, and that is why it has not gone ahead 

and done it in Canada, because Canada so far has not said that 

they think that that is the answer either. 

Ms. JACKSON LEE. Let me just conclude by saying that we will 

probably agree to disagree, but I am not in discussions with Canada; and I do recognize that law enforcement has said that the 

sites have generated an opportunity for them to press for the victims and then find the perpetrators. 

I would say to the Chief that we might give him other resources 

to find these perpetrators or enough resources to find them and not 

proliferate sites in other places. I think the sites are quite destructive, and I would probably talk with you off record about Adult 

Services that are necessary that need to be kept in place. And 

maybe I am misreading what Adult Services are. 

But Mr. Chairman, I do thank you for the opportunity, and I 

have gleaned from the testimony, both written and the statements 

being made by all of these individuals, that we have work to do. 

And if we have any sensitivity about taking it to the highest level 

and yielding nothing, we need simply look at the child that has 

been the continuing victim for eons of our civilization, going beyond 

the boundaries of the United States. I would think the 21st century 

would be time to say enough is enough. I am ready to do that and 

I yield back to the Chairman. 

Mr. SCOTT. Ms. Hakes, Mr. Sensley indicated that in an area of 

about 10 million people, $2 million would make a substantial difference. Thirty times $10 million is $300 million, which would 

cover the country. So 30 times $2 million, $60 million. This is kind 

of a broad brush, and there is no specific plan involved, but it 

seems to me if that is the order of magnitude we are talking about, 

you and Mr. Sensley and other chiefs of police ought to get together 

and come up with a plan. 

Is there anything in the report to Congress which suggests where 

additional funding for enforcement might go? 

Ms. HAKES. Mr. Chairman, that is one of the things that we are 

working on with our National Strategy Working Group; that is, 

232 

very specifically, we have asked all of our Federal, State and local 

partners—which include the National District Attorneys Association, the National Association of Attorneys General, a variety of 

Federal agencies here in Washington, and our State and local 

Internet Crimes Against Children Task Force commanders—we 

have asked that group to come up with recommendations to make 

to the policymakers; that is, the Attorney General and the Deputy 

Attorney General at the Department of Justice. And we are engaged in those. 

Mr. SCOTT. So you will have a response to his challenge that 

with a couple of million dollars they can make a substantial difference? 

Ms. HAKES. I am going to avoid responding to Chief Sensley’s 

challenge, as he is a lot bigger than I am. However, what I can say 

is I do think that he is right, that working together is important 

and worth more than money. Money is clearly important when it 

comes to these kinds of cases, but more important is the will to do 

something about it. 

The public attention that is being paid to this issue, like this 

hearing today and the relationship that we are working hard on 

and have been working hard on, are as important, if not more important, than financial resources. 

Mr. SCOTT. I would like to thank the witnesses for their testimony today. Members may have additional written questions which 

we will forward to you and ask that you answer promptly as you 

can so that the answers may be made part of the record. 

Without objection, the Executive Summary of the National Strategy for Child Exploitation Prevention and Interdiction, a Report to 

Congress, dated August 2010, will be included in the record, and 

the hearing record will remain open for 1 week for the submission 

of additional materials. 

[The information referred to follows:] 

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Mr. SCOTT. So, again, I want to thank each and every one of our 

witnesses. This has been a very powerful hearing. The Members 

gave excellent testimony, and the suggestions you have made I 

think suggest that we can do a lot more if we kind of focus our 

minds to it, and it is within the order of magnitude of something— 

in terms of resources needed, something in the order of magnitude 

we ought to be able to respond to. 


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I want to thank each and every one of you. So, without objection, 

the Subcommittee stands adjourned. 

[Whereupon, at 5:05 p.m., the Subcommittee was adjourned.] 

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