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ADDRESSING UNUSED AND VACANT FEDERAL 

COURTHOUSES: A CASE STUDY IN MIAMI– 

DADE, FLORIDA 

HEARING 

BEFORE THE

SUBCOMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT OPERATIONS 

OF THE

COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT 

AND GOVERNMENT REFORM 

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 

ONE HUNDRED THIRTEENTH CONGRESS 

FIRST SESSION 

MARCH 8, 2013 

Serial No. 113–28 

Printed for the use of the Committee on Oversight and Government Reform 

( 

Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.fdsys.gov 

http://www.house.gov/reform 

(II) 

COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM 

DARRELL E. ISSA, California, Chairman 

JOHN L. MICA, Florida 

MICHAEL R. TURNER, Ohio 

JOHN J. DUNCAN, JR., Tennessee 

PATRICK T. MCHENRY, North Carolina 

JIM JORDAN, Ohio 

JASON CHAFFETZ, Utah 

TIM WALBERG, Michigan 

JAMES LANKFORD, Oklahoma 

JUSTIN AMASH, Michigan 

PAUL A. GOSAR, Arizona 

PATRICK MEEHAN, Pennsylvania 

SCOTT DESJARLAIS, Tennessee 

TREY GOWDY, South Carolina 

BLAKE FARENTHOLD, Texas 

DOC HASTINGS, Washington 

CYNTHIA M. LUMMIS, Wyoming 

ROB WOODALL, Georgia 

THOMAS MASSIE, Kentucky 

DOUG COLLINS, Georgia 

MARK MEADOWS, North Carolina 

KERRY L. BENTIVOLIO, Michigan 

RON DESANTIS, Florida 

ELIJAH E. CUMMINGS, Maryland, Ranking 

Minority Member 

CAROLYN B. MALONEY, New York 

ELEANOR HOLMES NORTON, District of 

Columbia 

JOHN F. TIERNEY, Massachusetts 

WM. LACY CLAY, Missouri 

STEPHEN F. LYNCH, Massachusetts 

JIM COOPER, Tennessee 

GERALD E. CONNOLLY, Virginia 

JACKIE SPEIER, California 

MATTHEW A. CARTWRIGHT, Pennsylvania 

MARK POCAN, Wisconsin 

TAMMY DUCKWORTH, Illinois 

ROBIN L. KELLY, Illinois 

DANNY K. DAVIS, Illinois 

PETER WELCH, Vermont 

TONY CARDENAS, California 

STEVEN A. HORSFORD, Nevada 

MICHELLE LUJAN GRISHAM, New Mexico 

LAWRENCE J. BRADY, Staff Director 

JOHN D. CUADERES, Deputy Staff Director 

STEPHEN CASTOR, General Counsel 

LINDA A. GOOD, Chief Clerk 

DAVID RAPALLO, Minority Staff Director 

SUBCOMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT OPERATIONS

JOHN L. MICA, Florida, Chairman 

TIM WALBERG, Michigan 

MICHAEL R. TURNER, Ohio 

JUSTIN AMASH, Michigan 

THOMAS MASSIE, Kentucky 

MARK MEADOWS, North Carolina 

GERALD E. CONNOLLY, Virginia Ranking 

Minority Member 

JIM COOPER, Tennessee 

MARK POCAN, Wisconsin 

(III) 

C O N T E N T S 

Page 

Hearing held on March 8, 2013 .............................................................................. 1 

WITNESSES 

Mr. John Smith, Regional Commissioner, Public Building Service, General 

Services Administration 

Oral Statement ................................................................................................. 7 

Written Statement ............................................................................................ 10 

Mr. Mark L. Goldstein, Director, Physical Infrastructure Issues, Government 

Accountability Office 

Oral Statement ................................................................................................. 14 

Written Statement ............................................................................................ 16 

Mr. Eduardo J. Padron, Ph.D., President, Miami-Dade College 

Oral Statement ................................................................................................. 31 

Written Statement ............................................................................................ 33 

APPENDIX 

Letter about Dyer Courthouse and Ferguson Courthouse ................................... 55 

Resolution No. 05/2013, a Resolution of the Board of Directors of the Miami 

Downtown Development Authority ..................................................................... 57 

Dade Heritage Trust, Submitted for the Record ................................................... 58 

Letter from Dr. Eduardo J. Padron, Ph.D., President, Miami Dade College ...... 59 

(1) 

ADDRESSING UNUSED AND VACANT FEDERAL 

COURTHOUSES: A CASE STUDY IN MIAMI– 

DADE, FLORIDA 

Friday, March 8, 2013 

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

SUBCOMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT OPERATIONS

COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM

Washington, D.C. 

The subcommittee met, pursuant to call, at 2:45 p.m., in Chapman Conference Room, Miami-Dade College, 300 N.E. 2nd Avenue, 

Miami-Dade, Florida, Hon. John L. Mica [chairman of the subcommittee] presiding. 

Present: Representatives Mica and DeSantis. 

Also Present: Representatives Ros-Lehtinen and Wilson. 

Staff Present: Sharon Casey, Senior Assistant Clerk; Ashley 

Callen, Professional Staff Member; Gwen D’Luzansky, Research 

Analyst; Mark Marin, Director of Oversight; and Cecelia Thomas, 

Minority Counsel. 

Mr. MICA. I would like to welcome everyone. I am Congressman 

John Mica. I have the honor and privilege of serving as Chair of 

the Government Operations Subcommittee of the House Oversight 

and Government Reform Committee in the United States House of 

Representatives, and that committee is the chief investigative committee in Congress. 

I am pleased to be joined by my colleague, Mr. Ron DeSantis, a 

member of that committee also. He is also a Floridian, and we are 

delighted that he would join us here and take time in this important oversight hearing today in Miami. 

Then we have two Miamians. First, the senior member with us 

today from the Miami delegation, former Chair of the Foreign Affairs, Government Relations, International Relations, whatever 

name they had there—it has changed a few times—the very distinguished lady from Miami, Ileana Ros-Lehtinen, and I believe that 

before redistricting she had the community college, and she is a 

distinguished alumnus of the Miami-Dade then-community college, 

now college. So we are extremely pleased that she would join us 

for part of this hearing, again representing Dade County and South 

Florida. We are just delighted to have her. 

Then, a newer member in Congress, and we are pleased to have 

her, and she is now representing, I understand, Miami-Dade College in her congressional district, Frederica Wilson, and we are delighted to have her. 

2 

The first order of business, too, that I would take on is that I will 

ask unanimous consent that both Ms. Ros-Lehtinen and Ms. Wilson, not being members of the panel, be allowed to participate in 

this hearing today. Without objection, so ordered. Okay. 

And, of course, as the two members of the panel complete their 

opening statements and also any questioning, you will be allowed 

to participate fully. So, thank you. 

We have three witnesses today: John Smith, the Regional Commissioner of the Public Buildings Service at the General Services 

Administration; and Mr. Mark Goldstein is Director of Physical Infrastructure issues at the Government Accountability Office; and 

coming in the door in the left lane is Dr. Eduardo Padron, and he 

is the President of Miami-Dade College. 

First I have to welcome him as a witness, witness today, and also 

partly responsible for—well, very responsible for today’s hearing 

which is at Miami-Dade College. Dr. Padron, again, we are delighted to have you both as a witness and also as an instigator of 

this hearing and distinguished president of the college. 

Miami-Dade, do we still hold the title of the largest community 

college in the world, I believe, as far as population? We are very 

pleased to be on the campus today. 

Let me also proceed with a little bit of housekeeping. The order 

of business will be opening statements by members, and then we 

will turn to our three witnesses for their statements. But a little 

bit of business. 

This is an investigations and oversight committee of Congress, 

and it is customary that we swear in our witnesses, and you all 

will testify today. So I would ask you to stand, if you would, raise 

your right hand. 

[Witnesses sworn.] 

Mr. MICA. Let the record reflect that the witnesses answered in 

the affirmative, and again I welcome them and thank them for 

their participation. 

With that preliminary introduction and swearing in of our witnesses, I am going to take the liberty of opening with some commentary today, and then I will turn to Mr. DeSantis and our other 

two impaneled members of Congress. 

So again, I thank Miami-Dade for hosting us. It wasn’t that long 

ago, in fact, I see August 6, 2012, that I had the opportunity as 

Chairman of the Transportation and Infrastructure Committee to 

hold an oversight hearing. The Transportation Committee has a 

narrow scope of oversight, in particular over the General Services 

Administration and some public buildings. The committee on which 

I serve and have served and the subcommittee, which we are representing, Mr. DeSantis and I today, the Government Operations 

Committee, has very broad jurisdiction and investigative power 

and authority for oversight across the entire spectrum of the Federal Government. 

So that hearing was held here, and a funny thing happened after 

that hearing. I got a letter from a fellow by the name of Dr. 

Padron, and I must for the record an just for putting everybody’s 

prejudices on the table, I had the great honor of attending MiamiDade Community College and graduating in 1965, but it wasn’t 

this campus. So I had been away for some years and was not familVerDate Aug 31 2005 10:13 Jun 25, 2013 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00006 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 C:\DOCS\81525.TXT APRIL
3 

iar with the downtown campus. And when we arrived, of course, 

you can see that the Dyer Building is right across the street, and 

I never realized it until that August 6th hearing, the proximity of 

the Federal Building, the old courthouse and the Miami-Dade campus. 

So Dr. Padron writes me this letter and says, Congressman Mica, 

thank you for holding that hearing on August 6th. We have been 

trying for years to get agreement or some arrangement with GSA 

to acquire or occupy that property. So I was quite stunned to find 

out that we had a very willing local—and it is a government partner, an educational institution with great value to our community, 

state, and nation, again someone willing to take on the responsibility of assuming the property. 

That hearing that we held, and this hearing again will disclose 

that the property has been vacant for more than five years. It is 

costing $1.2 million, on average, over $6 million just to maintain 

the property, and we are also told that while it is partially maintained, it has also incurred very significant, in the tens of millions 

of dollars in damage and neglect by just sitting idle, now with mold 

and, again, deterioration of a valuable public asset. 

This is particularly alarming when we are closing down essential 

public services, and we have here a very valuable piece of property. 

The assessed value is maybe $17 million, and we pay millions to 

keep a vacant building vacant. And as I said, taxpayers are taking 

it in the wallet, and that is not appropriate at any time, whether 

we are going bust, as we are right now, or in the past, even when 

we had better revenues. 

Again, the purpose of this hearing is to focus attention on valuable Federal assets that are sitting idle. This hearing is also going 

to focus some on hearing about valuable assets that are sitting vacant and the continued problems with space utilization, and also 

the issue of over-building of Federal courthouses, and we have one 

of those examples next door in the Ferguson Building, which was 

opened in 2008 and still has some space to be built out, still has 

some courtrooms that are under-utilized by virtue of the number 

of judges we have to occupy those spaces. 

The other thing that I think is important to point out is that 

GSA has not had a plan to really move forward either before they 

knew for some two years that the property in question today, the 

Dyer Courthouse, was going to be vacated, so actually you can add 

two to five, you have seven or eight years in which there is no plan 

to dispose of or better utilize or protect taxpayer assets. 

Now, some people may say, well, what is Mica doing holding another hearing down here? Sometimes it is the only way we can get 

GSA’s attention. We started out, the very first hearing that I did 

as Chairman of the Transportation Committee was in the Old Post 

Office in Washington, D.C., downtown, two blocks from the White 

House, vacant. It sat vacant, the Annex next to it, for 15 years, half 

the space, a huge amount of space, prime real estate in the center 

of our nation’s capital. We held that hearing, for the information 

of those here, I believe it was in February, and then an entire year, 

and we did it in—it was 32 degrees in Washington, and we did it 

in an empty, cold building—it was 35 degrees there—just to get 

folks’ attention. But we didn’t. 

4 

It took us another year and we came back, and on the anniversary we actually held the second hearing there, and just prior to 

that, days before that, GSA announced that they would be granting 

private-sector participation in developing the property where now 

1,000 people may work, 400 hotel rooms, and instead of losing $10 

million a year, probably gaining $10 million a year for the taxpayer 

in revenues from the structure. 

We did a similar hearing in two other locations, and we are batting 500 there. This is a good week for the taxpayers because 

where we held a hearing in a vacant power station building in 

Georgetown, also in our nation’s capital, Georgetown, right behind 

the Ritz Carlton, 2.08 acres, which sat vacant for 10 years. This 

week, in fact, I think yesterday GSA announced, and maybe we can 

get some confirmation, an online auction that is bringing in over 

$19 million for that property. Nothing was done until the day before the hearing, when GSA hoisted a ‘‘For Sale’’ sign over the 

property. But there is some partially good news in that we have 

that property moving forward. 

The Cotton Exchange, another vacant property in the heart of 

our nation’s capital, still sits vacant. And folks, if you think we are 

only talking about three or four properties, there are approximately 

13,995 more to go that are vacant. 

So the extra space in the Ferguson Building that isn’t used costs the taxpayers $3.5 million for rent, operation and maintenance. 

The building with extra space, actually the space we didn’t need 

was another $48.5 million. The problem of over-building and underutilization of property is not common or unique to Miami. As I said, 

it is across the country. We have more than 33 new courthouses, 

32 of which were overbuilt, and again, thousands of buildings and 

properties sitting vacant are under-utilized. 

A couple of weeks ago we went out to Beltsville, Maryland, and 

found 7,000 acres, 500 buildings, of which 200 were vacant. So 

whether it is in South Florida or Maryland, on the Capital Beltway, this waste and inefficiency goes on. 

So I look forward to hearing from GSA on where they are today 

and where we hope to be tomorrow. We also look forward to hearing from the General Accountability Office and others. 

So with those opening, long remarks, but for the purpose of providing background for the record, I am pleased to yield to Mr. 

DeSantis. 

Welcome, sir, and you are recognized. 

Mr. DESANTIS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you for holding 

this hearing, and thank you for your determined pursuit of inefficiencies and waste in government. I know a lot of taxpayers appreciate it. That is ultimately what we are doing here today. We have 

a responsibility as elected officials to serve the interests of the people who elected us and who pay the bills for this government, the 

taxpayers of our country. To see millions of dollars being spent in 

maintenance fees for empty buildings, particularly at a time when 

we are told we have to cut back on key services, it is something 

that none of us should be satisfied with. 

I am also concerned, and I hope this hearing will go into the 

cumbersome process that can be involved in disposing of some of 

these Federal properties. We need to start streamlining some of 

5 

this bureaucracy and red tape. I think it is paralyzing us as a 

country in more ways than one. This is a small example of that. 

Then I would just note, with the millions of dollars that we are talking about, in the grand scheme of the $3.6 trillion of spending 

that the government does, it is admittedly a small portion. But I 

would remind you that recently the White House announced that 

they were going to suspend White House tours so that people were 

not going to be able to go in and tour the White House. It is about 

$18,000 a week to do that. So from this point until the end of the 

year, if you multiply that out, it is about $800,000 that the White 

House would supposedly be saving by not allowing White House 

tours. Simply by disposing of one of these properties, you would immediately be raising more revenue than that would cost. 

So the hundreds of examples of this across the country, this 

money does matter, and it is important that we hold the institutions of this government accountable. 

So with that, Mr. Chairman, I just thank you again, and I yield 

back. 

Mr. MICA. Thank you, Mr. DeSantis. 

Now the senior member of the delegation from South Florida, 

Ms. Ros-Lehtinen. 

Ms. ROS-LEHTINEN. That means the old broad. 

[Laughter.] 

Mr. MICA. No, I did not say that. We will have to trim the record 

on that one. 

Ms. Ros-Lehtinen, you are recognized. 

Ms. ROS-LEHTINEN. Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman. What a delight it is to be in Congresswoman Wilson’s district. Thank you 

very much for allowing us to come. 

It is a pleasure to have our witnesses here, most especially Dr. 

Padron, who is such a community figure for all of South Florida 

and really our guiding light. Thank you for your work and Mr. 

DeSantis’ work in safeguarding the people’s money. This is a very 

valuable opportunity to talk about how we can save taxpayers 

money. 

As we know, as the Chairman and Ron have pointed out, underutilized properties are sitting idle at tremendous cost to taxpayers 

and with no public benefit. The Dyer Courthouse costs the taxpayers $1.2 million per year and nearly $6 million since the building closed five years ago to maintain the structure alone, is what 

it costs. The conveyance of Dyer will further contribute to the renaissance that is contributing throughout downtown Miami. 

I had an opportunity to see the renaissance as I circled around 

and tried to find this building. It used to be very easy to find 

Miami-Dade College. But the growth here is just incredible, and 

this sadly highlights just another example of the Federal Government’s gross mismanagement of Federal property. The building sits 

on prime real estate in downtown Miami. It makes no sense to continue to throw money down the drain. 

Miami-Dade College has an established track record of success in 

the planning and management of facilities development, renovation, maintenance, and operations. I know because I worked with 

Dr. Padron in the GSA to transfer some properties so that MiamiDade could use it, and it was just a dream come true, and every 

6 

little inch of space that they could have is making somebody’s 

dream come true. 

The courthouse has been vacant, as I said, for five years, since 

the Wilkie D. Ferguson, Jr. U.S. Courthouse opened just across the 

street in 2008. According to GSA, the building needs $60 million 

in renovations to make it usable for other Federal agencies or for 

the private sector. Currently, the courthouse shares facilities, including utility infrastructure, parking facilities, courtyard and tunnels with the neighboring C. Clyde Atkins Courthouse, and GSA 

estimates that it will cost $10 million to separate the courthouse 

from the Atkins Courthouse. 

I know that they have issued a request for information. Twentyfour parties have indicated interest in the courthouse, and I hope 

that this meeting that you are having today, Mr. Chairman, will 

give us an opportunity of finding out what better uses of taxpayer 

money we can have, rather than having that facility drain us. 

So thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, for having this hearing, 

and I regret that I will not be able to stay for the entirety as I have 

another engagement. 

Mr. MICA. We are very pleased that you would take time and join 

us today, and I know that you have a full commitment. But again, 

since this is so important on your agenda, we wanted to give you 

that opportunity. 

And now, representing the area now and the community college, 

is Representative Wilson, and we are delighted to have her join our 

panel, and I would like to recognize you now for an opening statement or comment. 

Ms. WILSON. Thank you. Thank you so much, Chairman Mica, 

and welcome to District 24. I am happy to have all of you here. Dr. 

Padron and I have worked together for maybe 25 years now. When 

I got the information that this had something to do with impacting 

students at Miami-Dade College, immediately my antennas went 

straight up because at Miami-Dade Community College, at MiamiDade County, all across the county, I have more than 10,000 children enrolled that I personally sent to this college. So I know the 

difference, and I know what will happen when we do what we are 

supposed to do as a government to improve Miami-Dade even more. 

I know we cannot spread out anymore because there is no room 

downtown. But that Dyer Building is there for us, and we are going 

to make sure that we work closely with Mr. Smith. I had a meeting 

with him this morning about another issue up north with the FBI 

Building and the leasing of that, another property in my district, 

and a new FBI Building that is being built in my district at 

Miramar. So we have been getting acquainted on many levels. 

I just hope that with today’s hearing we can say that GSA and 

Miami-Dade and the government can continue to work together 

until we find a resolution to this. It is going to be good for the community, it is good for the government, and to me it is a cost savings 

because the building is empty, and I am just wondering what will 

happen if we sell some of these properties and use that money to 

retrofit the Dyer Building for the use by Miami-Dade Community 

College. 

My heart is here with all of my children, and I send 1,000 a year. 

They are coming constantly, and all of them are boys who ordiVerDate Aug 31 2005 10:13 Jun 25, 2013 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00010 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 C:\DOCS\81525.TXT APRIL
7 

narily would not even have college in their portfolio. But with the 

help of this entire community, we have been able to send these 

young men to college, and we have some teaching here now, Dr. 

Padron, that you have hired. Yes, you know the 5,000 Role Models 

project. 

Mr. Mica, this is something that this community is proud of, and 

Miami-Dade is in the heart of it with these young men. So it is a 

pleasure to have you here, and it is a pleasure—you can come as 

often as you want until we find a solution to this problem, because 

this is important to this community. Thank you. 

Mr. MICA. Well, thank you. The next time I plan to be here, I 

will be hopefully with the two representatives from South Florida 

as we cut a ribbon and this building has some useful purpose, with 

less cost to the taxpayers and it is not sitting idle. We are going 

to do it together, and I appreciate both of you coming for a few 

minutes and taking time out of your schedules to be with us. 

We have one representative of Mario Diaz-Balart’s office. Ms. 

Cosio, are you here? I know Mr. Diaz-Balart could not be with us, 

but he sent his representative. 

Are there any other representatives from any of the other congressional offices? Senator Rubio’s office? And your last name, for 

the record? Higgins, Ms. Higgins, Cruz Higgins. Well, thank you so 

much for the Senator and Congressman sending representatives 

today and for their interest and support, too. 

So with that, we also have Ms. Thomas with the minority. 

I am going to ask unanimous consent that we keep the record 

open for a period of two weeks for additional statements, if that is 

acceptable, Ms. Thomas. We want everyone on the committee and 

anyone else who has interest to submit questions. Also, we may 

have some additional questions we will submit to the witnesses. 

We do rather formal presentations in these hearings, and sometimes limited in time, but we can add to the record. 

So without objection, so ordered. The record is left open for a period of two weeks. 

With that, we have again our witnesses, our three witnesses 

today. We have Mr. John Smith, Regional Commissioner of the 

Public Building Service at the General Services Administration. I 

will recognize him first. 

Our order of recognition, gentlemen, we usually give you five 

minutes, and then, as I said, if you have additional lengthy statements, documents that you want made part of the record, just ask 

the Chair and we will comply with that. 

So with that, we will recognize first Mr. Smith of GSA. You are 

welcome and recognized. 

WITNESS STATEMENTS 

STATEMENT OF JOHN SMITH 

Mr. SMITH. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Good afternoon, Chairman Mica, Congressman Wilson, Congresswoman Ros-Lehtinen, 

and Congressman DeSantis. My name is John Smith. I am the Regional Commissioner for GSA’s Public Building Service in the 

Southeast Sunbelt Region. Thank you for the opportunity to join 

8 

you here today at Miami-Dade College to discuss the David W. 

Dyer Federal Building and U.S. Courthouse. 

Under new leadership, GSA has refocused on its mission of delivering the best value in real estate acquisition and technology services to the government and to the American people. To meet this 

mission, GSA is working with agencies across the government to 

improve utilization and reduce space requirements by effectively 

managing our assets and pursuing innovative real property proposals that will deliver better space to Federal agencies. 

GSA is one of more than two dozen major Federal landholding 

agencies. GSA manages just 9,600 of the more than 834,000 buildings and structures reported in the Federal Real Property Profile. 

Of those 9,600, GSA’s Southeast Sunbelt Region is responsible for 

approximately 1,600. 

We have a robust asset management program to track the utilization of our inventory, strategically invest in our assets where 

needed, and aggressively dispose of unneeded assets. As a result, 

we lead the market in our vacancy rates and utilization. In the 

Southeast Sunbelt Region, only 1.9 percent of our portfolio is 

under-utilized. 

When we identify vacant space in areas where there is a continuing Federal need, GSA works aggressively to renovate and 

reuse the asset to greater achieve better utilization. We also work 

diligently to identify unneeded assets for disposal. Since 2005, GSA 

has disposed of more than 300 of our own assets, generating proceeds of more than $116 million. In the Southeast Sunbelt Region 

alone, we have disposed of 20 GSA assets since 2005, generating 

$20.3 million. 

In addition to managing our own inventory, GSA has the authority to dispose of most Federal real property government-wide. In 

the last 10 years, GSA has disposed of more than 2,800 assets. 

GSA Sunbelt Region has helped to dispose of more than 300 of 

these. 

Today the committee has chosen to discuss the historic Dyer 

Courthouse, a property for which we are actively exploring repositioning strategies. The Dyer Courthouse was constructed in 1933 

and listed in the National Register of Historic Places in 1983. The 

courts and court-related activities substantially occupied the building until the fall of 2008. In 2008, GSA completed construction of 

the new Wilkie D. Ferguson U.S. Courthouse, and tenants of the 

Dyer Building vacated to occupy the newly constructed Courthouse. 

At that time, the initial asset management strategy was to renovate and backfill the Dyer for purposes of lease cost avoidance and 

preservation of an historically significant asset, which is consistent 

with GSA’s strategic preference for owned assets over continued 

leasing solutions. 

GSA’s lease portfolio in Miami amounts to nearly 3 million 

square feet. However, GSA has since made a decision that in the 

absence of capital to renovate the facility, we will explore repositioning the Dyer Courthouse. GSA is currently exploring ways to 

do so. In August of 2012, we issued a request for information seeking ideas for redeveloping and preserving the property. We received 

interest from two sources, neither of which offered a viable option 

as proposed. However, we are happy to work with Miami-Dade ColVerDate Aug 31 2005 10:13 Jun 25, 2013 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00012 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 C:\DOCS\81525.TXT APRIL
9 

lege and the other respondent to see if there are ways to make 

their proposals more workable. 

Additionally, Miami-Dade College’s proposal to get the property 

under a public benefit conveyance would require us to report this 

property excess. In light of that interest, we are currently preparing a due diligence for a report of excess while assessing other 

potential strategies for the building. 

Repositioning the courthouse will not be without challenges, the 

Atkins Courthouse next door and the Dyer share of the utility infrastructure, parking, mechanical systems and tunnels. The preliminary cost to separate and replace these connections exceeds $10 

million. GSA is exploring all potential repositioning strategies, and 

we have engaged the public and private sector to find a strategy 

with the highest benefit to the taxpayer. 

We are pleased to see the interest from Miami-Dade College and 

look forward to working further with them. GSA is committed to 

carrying out its mission of delivering the best value in real estate 

acquisition and technology services to the government and to the 

American people. We continue working aggressively to manage our 

own assets while pursuing other innovative new processes to better 

utilize our inventory. 

The Southeast Sunbelt Region is pleased to assist with these efforts. We look forward to finding the best strategy to reposition this 

property and working with the committee to continue to utilize 

Federal real estate more effectively. 

I welcome the opportunity to be here, and I am happy to answer 

any questions. 

[Prepared statement of Mr. Smith follows:] 

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Mr. MICA. Thank you, and we will hold questions until we have 

heard from all of the witnesses. 

I will next recognize John Smith. He is the Regional Commissioner of Public Buildings at the—I am sorry. We just finished with 

him, and certainly he has been recognized. 

But Mark Goldstein is Director of Physical Infrastructure Issues 

at the Government Accountability Office. He is our next witness, 

and we welcome him, and he is recognized. Thank you. 

STATEMENT OF MARK L. GOLDSTEIN 

Mr. GOLDSTEIN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman and 

members of the subcommittee, I am pleased to be here today to discuss our work on Federal courthouse construction and how it specifically relates to Miami, Florida. Since the early 1990s, the General Services Administration and the Federal Judiciary have undertaken a multibillion-dollar courthouse construction initiative 

that, to date, has resulted in 78 new courthouses or annexes, with 

18 additional projects in various stages of development. This includes the Ferguson Courthouse, which was completed in 2008, at 

a cost of approximately $163 million. However, rising costs and 

other budget priorities have slowed the construction program. 

My testimony today discusses the Ferguson Courthouse and the 

other 32 Federal courthouses completed from 2000 to March 2010, 

particularly whether the courthouses contain extra space and any 

costs related to that space, how the actual size of courthouses compare with the congressionally authorized size, how courthouse 

space based on the Judiciary’s 10-year estimates of the number of 

judges compares with the actual number of judges, and whether 

the level of courtroom sharing supported by data from the Judiciary’s 2008 Study of District Courtroom Sharing could have 

changed the amount of space needed in these courthouses. This testimony is primarily based on our June 2010 report on this issue, 

updated and informed by our current work in this area. 

Our report and recent work have provided several findings. First, 

GAO found that the Ferguson Courthouse, along with the other 32 

Federal courthouses completed since 2000, include 3.56 million 

square feet of extra space consisting of space that was constructed 

above the congressionally authorized size due to overestimating the 

number of judges the courthouses would have and without planning for courtroom sharing among judges. Overall, this space represents about nine average-sized courthouses. The estimated cost 

to construct the space was approximately $835 million, and the annual cost to rent, operate and maintain it is $51 million. 

The Ferguson Courthouse specifically included approximately 

238,000 extra square feet of space, which we estimated increased 

the construction costs by $48.5 million in constant 2010 dollars, 

and an additional $3.5 million annually. 

Second, the Ferguson Courthouse, along with 26 others completed since 2000, exceed their congressionally authorized size by 

a total of 1.7 million square feet. Specifically, the Ferguson Courthouse exceeded its authorized size by 97,000 square feet due to judiciary and common spaces that were larger than planned. For example, the 16 courtrooms in the Ferguson Courthouse exceed Judiciary standards by between 7 to 17 percent. GSA did not explain 

15 

to its oversight committees that the courthouses were larger than 

authorized and did not attribute any of the cost increase to this difference. However, there is no statutory requirement for GSA to notify Congress, its authorizing or its appropriating committees, if the 

size exceeds the authorized square footage. 

Third, the Ferguson Courthouse, along with 22 of the 28 courthouses whose space planning occurred at least 10 years ago, has 

fewer judges than were estimated. The Judiciary overestimated the 

number of judges that would be located in these courthouses, causing them to be approximately 887,000 square feet larger than necessary, resulting in unnecessary construction and operating costs. 

In the Ferguson Courthouse, the Judiciary estimated in 2000 

that it would have 33 judges in Miami by 2010; it had 27 at the 

time of our report. This resulted in 57,000 extra square feet of 

space, including several courtrooms that were never finished. 

Fourth, using the Judiciary’s own data, GAO designed a model 

for courtroom sharing which shows that there is enough unscheduled courtroom time for substantial courtroom sharing. Sharing 

could have reduced the number of courtrooms needed in the Ferguson Courthouse and the other 21 courthouses built from 2002 to 

2010 by 126 courtrooms, which is about 40 percent of the total 

courtrooms constructed since 2000. It covers about 946,000 square 

feet. In Miami, we found that courtroom sharing would have allowed a reduction of 12 courtrooms covering 83,000 square feet. 

This raises questions about whether the Ferguson Building needed to be constructed at all. Based on the number of judges located 

in Miami, the Judiciary would only need 17 courtrooms based on 

our sharing model, and there were already 29 courtrooms in the 

Judiciary’s existing buildings before Ferguson. 

In our 2010 report, GAO recommended that GSA should establish controls to help ensure courtrooms remain within their authorized size and that the Judiciary should improve its estimation of 

future judgeships and expand courtroom sharing policies. 

Neither the GSA nor the Judiciary fully agreed with our recommendations, although some of these recommendations have been 

implemented. 

Mr. Chairman, this concludes my testimony. I would be happy to 

respond to questions the subcommittee may have. Thank you. 

[Prepared statement of Mr. Goldstein follows:] 

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Mr. MICA. Thank you, Mr. Goldstein. 

Now I will recognize Dr. Padron, who is President of Miami-Dade 

College. 

Welcome. Thank you again, Dr. Padron, for hosting us today. 

Now I would like to recognize you for your testimony. 

STATEMENT OF EDUARDO J. PADRON 

Mr. PADRON. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. MICA. You might pull that up as close as you can. 

Mr. PADRON. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am also happy to welcome Representative Wilson, a good friend of the college. And welcome to Miami-Dade College. Thank you for the opportunity to 

present these remarks. 

Miami-Dade College is the nation’s largest institution of higher 

education, welcoming more than 175,000 students every year. Our 

commitment to provide access to college-level learning throughout 

our community reflects the workforce demands of a dynamic economic environment. The college’s growth dictates that we explore 

creative approaches, form partnerships, and follow up on every opportunity. This includes challenging ones like the Dyer Courthouse 

located adjacent to our main building. 

Miami-Dade College supports Congress’ efforts to seek the efficient utilization of federally owned vacant properties. As you look 

into streamlining the Federal property disposal process, I believe 

Miami-Dade College can serve as a model demonstrating the important contribution the educational sector can make to your efforts. This college already has a track record of successfully conveying underutilized properties and restoring historic buildings. 

They have become centers of learning and hosted important gatherings for the benefit of our entire community. 

One such successful example of this commitment sits adjacent to 

our campus, the Freedom Tower, designated as a national historic 

landmark by the U.S. Department of Interior. This building is recognized as the Ellis Island of the South. It has served as a Federal 

processing center for Cuban refugees in the 1960s and ’70s, including yours truly. The Freedom Tower is flourishing today as an educational and cultural hub. It is a significant anchor in the economic 

revitalization of urban Miami. 

Given the chance, this is the type of future we envision for the 

Dyer Courthouse. Before I address that issue, allow me to briefly 

relate an additional success story that is even more pertinent to 

our discussion. It is federally owned property conveyed to the college in 2009. This property, a fenced-in downtown parking lot, currently served the Bureau of Prisons and Department of Justice employees. It is adjacent to the Miami-Dade College New World 

School of the Arts. 

Several years ago, we began meeting with the Bureau of Prisons 

to explore our interest in this property. In developing plans for a 

new structure for the property, we were able to combine the Bureau’s need for secure parking with our need to expand capacity. 

Working with them and alongside our congressional delegation, we 

obtained conveyance legislation. It was approved by Congress and 

signed by the president in a timely manner. 

32 

Today we are finishing the design plans for the new building. We 

anticipate a groundbreaking ceremony in the very near future. 

Mr. Chairman, these Federal partners were willing to work with 

us. The process was efficient and accomplished without time-consuming layers of review and unnecessary delays. Upon completion, 

this building will represent the result of a model Federal-local partnership. Much like the Freedom Tower, it will suggest the future 

that awaits the Dyer Building, if we are given the chance. 

I am aware that efforts to improve government efficiency and 

generate revenue for the Treasury are important elements of an effective Federal disposal process. However, focusing on maximizing 

fair market sales should not be your only option. In many cases, 

the cost of bringing a property to market exceeds the proceeds from 

the sale. The option of maximizing a fair market value sale should 

be weighed against the value of a public benefit conveyance. The 

end result will be better utilization of these Federal properties to 

the benefit of our communities and nation. 

This community benefit can be quantified. Miami-Dade College’s 

Commission on Economic Impact study by Economic Modeling Specialists, Inc., its findings indicated Miami-Dade College to be a 

sound investment from multiple perspectives. The findings of this 

economic impact study underscore the benefits to taxpayers should 

the Dyer Building become part of the college. 

Written remarks submitted to the subcommittee contain other 

details from the economic impact study. 

Lastly, it is important for me to note that the college is working 

with the GSA. We have responded to a request for information, 

sharing our plans and vision for the Dyer Building. We have been 

meeting with GSA representatives as we await their internal review process, a process that is inching forward. We have invited 

the GSA administrator to visit our downtown campus, including 

the Freedom Tower. 

Mr. Chairman, we will continue to communicate with this agency, our congressional delegation, with all of you on this committee. 

We have also reached out to our community and received several 

expressions of support for our plan. We have received support from 

the Dade Heritage Trust, which underscores our commitment to 

preserving the legacy of this building. We have also received a resolution of support from the Downtown Development Authority, recognizing the positive impact on Miami’s economy. In addition, we 

have received letters of support from Chief Judge Federico Moreno, 

the chief judge of the court in Miami. All these documents are here 

today, and I request that they become part of the official record. 

Our message is simple. Miami-Dade College sees great potential 

in conveying the Dyer Building into an educational and cultural 

center. We propose a new chapter for this historic building that 

will be rich in promise for all. We hope our Federal partners will 

give us that chance. Thank you very much. 

[Prepared statement of Mr. Padron follows:] 

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Mr. MICA. Well, thank you, and I thank each of our witnesses for 

your participation and your testimony. As I said, if you have additional statements, we will make them part of the record. 

Let me first turn to Mr. Smith with the GSA. We will start some 

questions here. 

Mr. Smith, I was surprised after the last hearing in August to 

hear that the community college, Miami-Dade, I guess at that time 

was Miami College, Miami-Dade College, had been in contact with 

GSA about utilization of this building. Do you know how far back 

that goes? 

Mr. SMITH. I do not. 

Mr. MICA. Dr. Padron, when was your first contact with GSA or 

the government in regard to this building, the Dyer Building? 

Mr. PADRON. Mr. Chairman, I will have to rely on my assistant 

for that specific information, and if they don’t have it, I will make 

sure you get it. 

Mr. MICA. Was it prior to the hearing in August? 

Mr. PADRON. That is my understanding, of course, yes. 

Mr. MICA. Yes. Okay. Most recently, according to testimony here 

today, there have been discussions ongoing about possible acquisition of the property by the community college or by Miami-Dade 

College. How long do you anticipate these discussions to take, and 

on what basis would you evaluate it? Have you seen their proposal? 

Mr. SMITH. Sir, we saw their response to the RFI, which requested the property through a public benefit conveyance. In order 

to get through that process, we have to put it into the disposal 

process, which means we have to report it excess, do the due diligence. There is an application under the process where the Department of the Interior is the sponsoring agency for that. The college 

would work with them. Their application was very complete, and 

it looks as though they have experience working with the Department of the Interior. 

Mr. MICA. I think he outlined also some conveyances that have 

successfully been executed. But I am trying to get some handle on 

time frame. When would you finish yours if Interior needs to get 

in? You know, I did the last hearing in August, and this is March. 

Any time frame? 

Mr. SMITH. We are in the middle of the due diligence now, and 

I was told today that we have an environmental assessment starting on Thursday. We have to still do a survey, work with the State 

Historic Preservation Office to outline the covenants and restrictions that we would move forward, no matter how we dispose of 

that property. 

Mr. MICA. But again, what I want to envision is that by June or 

six months, I don’t know, from this date, what is going to happen 

in what sequence? We want to be able to hold GSA accountable for 

movement. I mean, it is costing $1.2 million. We are up to $6 million I am told by staff, and the building continues to deteriorate, 

which also has a value. So I am trying to get some time frame on 

this. Can you be more specific? 

Mr. SMITH. We don’t control all of the processes. 

Mr. MICA. But the part that you control, tell me. 

42 

Mr. SMITH. We control the screening process initially. Once it is 

determined excess, we would have to screen it for homeless use and 

then for Federal —— 

Mr. MICA. So once you have the environmental—and how long 

will that take? 

Mr. SMITH. I don’t have a definite date on that. 

Mr. MICA. Can you supply the committee with that information? 

Mr. SMITH. We can provide you the information. We have already 

contracted for that. We would have to contract for a survey, and 

it may take 30 to 60 days. 

Mr. MICA. Nobody knows the time frame that the survey would 

take? 

Mr. SMITH. The survey could take—it should be pretty quickly. 

The contracting leading up to it is what takes the time. 

Mr. MICA. Okay. 

Mr. GOLDSTEIN. Mr. Chairman? 

Mr. MICA. Mr. Goldstein? 

Mr. GOLDSTEIN. Just one item. The GAO several years ago issued 

a report on public benefit conveyances in which we listed quite a 

number of them that were very successful. We outlined what the 

process was that you go through, and a number of them, in fact, 

were successful to educational purposes. I would, if you wish, sir, 

make that part of the record for your committee or provide that to 

you. 

Mr. MICA. I think that would be helpful. So there is sort of a 

guideline already established? 

Mr. GOLDSTEIN. We would be happy to. 

Mr. MICA. All right. Thank you for advising the committee of 

that. 

Again, Mr. Smith, what we are trying to do is figure out how 

long this is going to take or if we can expedite it. If Congress 

passes legislation, directive legislation, can we leapfrog some of 

that? As you know, that would be the law. 

Mr. SMITH. Sir, we will follow the law. It depends on what the 

law says. In some cases, we still are required —— 

Mr. MICA. Well, again, you want certain covenants that this is 

an historic property. In talking to the college, it appears that they 

have acquired property before. They obviously have been good 

stewards and have complied with the requirements of acquiring 

private property, I mean public property in the past that has, 

again, been conveyed to another public entity. So that is doable. 

Any guesstimate as to how long before if we can, again, provide 

something directive, that you can complete your part of the paperwork or requirements? A year? Six months? Two years? 

Mr. SMITH. I can give you an example of Thomasville, Georgia, 

where we recently conveyed a piece of property to the Board of 

Education at Thomasville. 

Mr. MICA. Okay. 

Mr. SMITH. It is still occupied by a post office, and it was a U.S. 

Post Office and Federal Building. It started back in 2010 when we 

first got an application for that. It went through the disposal process rather quickly. We moved the last tenant out in 2011, and I believe early last year, probably March or April, we had a conveyVerDate Aug 31 2005 10:13 Jun 25, 2013 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00046 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 C:\DOCS\81525.TXT APRIL
43 

ance. So this should not drag on forever. But what I don’t have 

—— Mr. MICA. Okay. Are the figures that are being given to the com- mittee about $1.2 million and about $6 million incurred so far just 

to maintain the empty building, is that correct? 

Mr. SMITH. I would have to check with my staff. Most of it is utility bills. We don’t have a cleaning contractor any longer. 

Mr. MICA. We are told it has cost us about $6 million to keep it 

vacant to date. That is the information provided to the committee. 

Well, wait a second. We can’t do that. 

Mr. SMITH. You are telling me it is less than that. 

Sir, we will get back to you with those correct figures. 

Mr. MICA. I would like the exact information for the record, but 

we are told it is approaching $6 million. 

[The information follows:] 

Mr. MICA. The thing that is amazing about this to me, and I 

think we discussed this in August, is it just didn’t happen that this 

building was going to become vacant. They were actually building 

a courthouse next door. We knew a new courthouse would be built. 

We knew that judges would be moving from this, and we knew that 

this property would be vacated, did we not, Mr. Smith? 

Mr. SMITH. Yes, Sir. As a matter of fact —— 

Mr. MICA. We knew it, but we never had a plan. Of course, there 

ought to be some way to get some interest either from the private 

sector or from public entities, and certainly it would behoove the 

Federal Government to work with public entities that have an interest in a public building for doing something with it. Once the 

door closed in 2007 and they went into the other building in 2008, 

it is five years later, the building is empty, and now my next question is I am told it is tens of millions of dollars probably to clean 

up the mold and some of the other damage that has been done by 

the property sitting vacant. Is that correct? 

Mr. SMITH. There would be a cleanup cost, but I need to correct 

you on the plan, sir. In 2006 we submitted a request for design, 

and I believe, I am told that in 2007 we actually received authorization for design. So the plan was always to back fill this building 

with Federal tenants. 

Mr. MICA. And what happened there? 

Mr. SMITH. We didn’t receive the appropriation for that. 

Mr. MICA. And what happened there? 

Mr. SMITH. Say again? 

Mr. MICA. What happened there? 

Mr. SMITH. Well, all we received was authorization for design. 

Mr. MICA. It wasn’t Federal judges because we have the GAO 

representative here. They overbuilt this. Not only is this a disaster, 

a taxpayer fiasco as far as the empty Dyer Federal Building, but 

the building they built. The GAO just testified they overbuilt the 

building. There is vacant space that has never even been built out. 

Was it your estimate, Mr. Goldstein, is this 57,000 extra square 

feet, or more? 

Mr. GOLDSTEIN. The extra square feet in Ferguson is 278,000 in 

three different categories, sir. 

Mr. MICA. The total is how much? 

Mr. GOLDSTEIN. 278,000. 

44 

Mr. MICA. Oh, my God. So we overbuilt. We have a vacant building. We will probably have to put utilities in part of that anyway, 

which is extra cost that we have incurred for at least five years. 

We have courtrooms that don’t have judges, and we have an empty 

courthouse costing us millions of dollars to keep empty. 

Dr. Padron, do you think the community college—I am sorry. I 

keep saying community college. You have to forgive me because 

that was the title for so long. Miami-Dade College. Do you believe, 

if you acquired this building, if we could convey it, that you could 

convert the building without difficulty to your use for the college? 

Mr. PADRON. Absolutely, Mr. Chairman. We wouldn’t be pursuing this if we didn’t feel that way. We have a tremendous need 

for space for the college for many of our programs. We keep growing. This is a very large campus, and we feel that that building, 

which is probably the most beautiful building architecturally in 

Miami and an iconic building, a historic designation, we feel that 

we can put it to a use that will welcome the community into it, 

that will serve the purposes of educating students, and that will 

complete a lot of the facilities that we need in order to serve the 

community down here. 

Mr. MICA. All right. And I have some additional questions. I 

want to yield right now to Ms. Wilson for questions. You are recognized. 

Ms. WILSON. Thank you, Mr. Chair. This particular issue means 

a lot to me personally, and it actually means a lot to this community. So I was happy to hear GSA give us a rundown on what has 

been happening and what we can expect to happen. I think Dr. 

Padron has given me some peace when he said that he is working 

with the Dade Heritage Trust and the Historical Society and the 

Downtown Development Authority and any other organizations 

that we feel can make this a reality, because it is important that 

we do this, and it is important that we make sure that it is not 

repositioned in a way that we lose it. We want this building to be 

ours and not for some other entity in the process. 

So I would like to get the assurance from GSA that Miami-Dade 

College is the preferred tenant of this building as far as GSA is 

concerned in your repositioning for new tenants and moving. Can 

we say that we are a priority? 

Mr. SMITH. Ma’am, we look forward to working with the college 

to resolve some of the issues that we have. But at this stage, we 

still have to go through a process. And while the college is amply 

prepared to be in line, we cannot prefer a type of disposal at this 

stage. But we do need to repurpose it so that it benefits the local 

community. That is one of the actions we look at. We also have to 

make sure that we extract the highest return for the government 

and the taxpayer, and should that be for historic monument or education or for any other public benefit conveyance, we will have to 

work with other sponsoring agencies to see how that process works 

out. 

But we do look forward to working with the college. They have 

proven that they are problem solvers, that they can work with the 

Federal Government through the labyrinth of regulations and laws 

that we must comply with, and I think it would be a very good 

partnership if we can continue to make those arrangements, to talk 

45 

to each other and see how we can resolve some of these unique 

issues with the Dyer Courthouse. 

Ms. WILSON. And just the track record of Miami-Dade is commendable. Dr. Padron is known internationally for what he has 

done here in this community with this college, and I am looking 

forward to everyone else from GSA to come down so that they can 

see it. 

So, even though this might not be legal or is not something that 

is lawful, that when they come, in their minds they will leave here 

saying we have to find a way to get this done because it is good 

for this community and it is good for thousands and thousands of 

children who are going to be citizens, who are going to be running 

this community in the future. 

So this is not a shelter for the homeless. This is not a post office. 

This is something that is going to be the betterment of this entire 

community and generations yet unborn who will take advantage of 

a historical building that needs to be preserved, according to everybody who has seen it. I think we need to find a way that we can 

put it in some sort of priority order. 

And with that, I am going to excuse myself. Thank you so much. 

Mr. MICA. Thank you also for having us in your new district and 

the great relationship you have with the college. I know that will 

continue. We are going to work with you until this is resolved. 

It would be my preference, again, since Miami-Dade needs this 

extra space, and it is a beautiful space. We had an opportunity to 

tour it again. It could be very conducive to use for a student population that is growing. Also, I am sure you have some judicial programs. This is some incredible courtroom space, and historic too, 

that does need to be preserved. So we will work with you, and 

thank you so much, and the rest of the delegation, for your interest 

and support. 

Let me go back to some of the questions that I had. We are covering today the Dyer Courthouse, and that seems to be sort of one 

of the tips of the iceberg. We had the Ferguson Courthouse built, 

a pretty expensive building, and it had, as you just told me before 

Ms. Wilson intervened, 250,000 extra square feet that were constructed —— 

Mr. GOLDSTEIN. Two-hundred seventy-eight thousand, sir. 

Mr. MICA. Oh, I am sorry. I keep getting the number wrong. 

Two-hundred seventy-eight thousand square feet. And what was 

the estimated extra cost to the taxpayer? 

Mr. GOLDSTEIN. $48.5 million, sir. 

Mr. MICA. $48.5 million. So we spent $48.5 million, and we have 

extra space over there. Do you know how much the unfinished 

space is? 

Mr. GOLDSTEIN. The size of the two courtrooms? There are two 

courtrooms that have never been finished at all, but there are several others, of course, that are vacant, that are not filled because 

of not having enough judges. 

Mr. MICA. So there is plenty of future space in the Ferguson 

Courthouse. 

Mr. GOLDSTEIN. Yes, sir. There are several floors. I have toured 

the building myself. There are several floors that are used, quite 

honestly, very inefficiently, one entire floor that is just a massive 

46 

library that is almost never used, as well as a conference room that 

is used less than once a month, and those are the only two things 

on that floor. 

There are other similar spaces in the building that are very inefficiently used—I am sure you have been there yourself—the whole 

area in which jury assembly occurs and the multi-floor atrium of 

elevators used to achieve rising to the upper floors. There was 

quite a lot of very inefficient space. The atriums themselves contributed a lot to that overage. 

The extra space comes in three categories, sir, that 278,000 feet 

of extra space I am talking about. Ninety-seven thousand square 

feet of space was built about the authorization level that Congress 

provided, 57,000 square feet was as a result of poorly projecting the 

number of judges that would be in place and needing courtrooms 

at the end of the 10-year time frame, and 83,000 square feet was 

as a result of the judges in that particular building deciding that 

they would not share. As you know, part of GAO’s work has been 

to develop a model based on the Judiciary’s own data about how 

judges at the District Court level could share effectively. 

Mr. MICA. So somebody has to be responsible if you build almost 

100,000 square feet of space more than Congress authorized. Who 

would be the responsible party there? 

Mr. GOLDSTEIN. That, sir, is mainly at GSA, because that space 

for the most part, GSA is responsible for building the building. 

They are the ones who control the architects. The GSA had its own 

space policy in place, but it did not follow it. 

Mr. MICA. In a couple of months I intend to convene another 

hearing in Washington to focus on a report that the GAO is working on. I think it is close to completion. It is entitled ‘‘The Judiciary’s Capital Planning Process For New Courthouses.’’ Mr. Goldstein, can you tell me the focus? I don’t know how far along you 

are in the report, the focus of that report. Is what we are seeing 

here in Miami as far as courthouses that are built that we don’t 

need and spaces that far exceed what Congress may have appropriated for purposes of heaven knows what, because they are not 

being used, and then leaving a vacant space behind, is this just 

happening in Miami, or what will this report show? 

Mr. GOLDSTEIN. We are working on two reports I think that will 

be of interest to you, sir. One is the one you mentioned on the fiveyear capital plan. That will be available to the public in May. The 

second one I think is actually a little more on target with the question you have just asked, and that is looking at what is happening 

with the older courthouses in America when the Judiciary decides 

—— Mr. MICA. Are they both on schedule to be presented to Congress? 

Mr. GOLDSTEIN. Yes, the one in May. The second one that I’m 

just mentioning is in the fall, not until the fall. 

Mr. MICA. Oh, okay. 

Mr. GOLDSTEIN. And that will look at the status of older courthouses like Dyer once the Judiciary has built newer space. 

Mr. MICA. All right. Let’s go back to some of the underlying problem that GSA builds a courthouse, and I think some of the criteria 

by which you build a courthouse is the information provided to you 

47 

by the potential tenant, in this case the judges. Now, they had one 

criteria by which they assessed the amount of space that would be 

needed in a facility, which I guess was the number of judges, current and projected, and then I am told now that that may have 

been changed because, as we heard Mr. Goldstein say, there is now 

a sharing space initiative, I don’t know how far along. 

What criteria did you use, do you know, Mr. Smith? What are 

you using, so we won’t have this costly fiasco of over-building and 

under-utilization? 

Mr. SMITH. Sir, I was not in place for the design or building of 

this courthouse. But you are correct that we get a program of requirements from the courts. 

Mr. MICA. And do you know what is in place now? Is it based 

on number of judges and projected judges? Is it based on this new 

model of what space they would actually need if they used some 

commonsense sharing? 

Mr. SMITH. For future courtrooms or courthouses, we do have 

courtroom sharing, and that is mandatory. 

Mr. MICA. That is the criteria that you are using? You are no 

longer using, again, the defunct method by which we got the Ferguson—I was going to say ‘‘monster’’—the Ferguson monster to the 

taxpayers? Maybe it is a nice building and all that but —— 

Mr. SMITH. To my knowledge, courtroom sharing is our standard 

now. There should be a formula for it. We don’t have much of a 

construction program right now. 

Mr. MICA. Have you looked at this, GAO? Tell me what your take 

is. 

Mr. GOLDSTEIN. Sure. Mr. Chairman, the report that we are 

going to be issuing to the public in May about the five-year capital 

plan will discuss the criteria that the Judiciary has developed over 

the last couple of years. They have changed their planning process. 

Certain things are not part of it anymore, but they have a more 

elaborate approach that they do use, and we will be presenting the 

findings of that report in May. 

The traditional use of caseload projections and judgeship numbers that derive from those caseload projections, which GAO criticized a number of years ago, is a much smaller factor today than 

it was in the past. 

Mr. MICA. Back to some of your testimony, Mr. Smith. You 

talked about the savings on space, disposing of excess space or 

properties. Can you cite again—I guess you were talking about the 

Southern District. What area does that encompass? 

Mr. SMITH. The Southeast Sunbelt Region. 

Mr. MICA. Southeast Sunbelt. How many states? 

Mr. SMITH. The Southeast Sunbelt Region is eight states, Kentucky, Tennessee, North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia, Florida, Mississippi and Alabama. 

Mr. MICA. And there was an estimate of how much, how many 

vacant properties or buildings. Over 200 was it? 

Mr. SMITH. In our region, we have one property that is underutilized, and that is over in Columbia. It is the VA building. 

Mr. MICA. In the entire region? 

Mr. SMITH. In our region. 

48 

Mr. MICA. And nationally, though, I think there were 200 that 

were identified. Are you aware of those? I thought you spoke to 

those in your testimony. 

Mr. SMITH. Nationally, on the list that is under-utilized within 

GSA, I think we have 124. I don’t know that that was in my testimony. 

Mr. MICA. And I thought you also gave us—from 2005, was it 

your region, I hope it wasn’t nationally, that we realized $20.3 million from properties that were disposed? 

Mr. SMITH. Those were only PBS properties within our region. 

The national inventory —— 

Mr. MICA. From 2005 to 2011 or 2012, the total? 

Mr. SMITH. Right. Those are the sales that we have done. We 

also have had a number of public benefit conveyances. 

Mr. MICA. But the sales, $20 million. I mean, I did that yesterday on the old power station in Georgetown. 

Mr. SMITH. Well, sir, this does not include all of the actions that 

we took. Those were only the buildings that we brought to public 

sale. Some very valuable buildings actually go—like the Dyer 

building is an extremely valuable building. It could go for a public 

benefit conveyance, in which case we would not count it in the 

$20.3 million. 

Mr. MICA. Dr. Padron, the building I talked about, I did a hearing in Washington at the vacant power station building behind the 

Ritz Carlton on some pretty valuable real estate. It sat there for 

10 years in Georgetown, downtown Washington. They put that up 

for a public auction, an online auction I believe it was, and that 

was I believe sold this week for around $19+ million. 

If we can’t get the conveyance, I don’t know the community’s 

backing for this or the college’s resources. Of course, you are an entity of the state of Florida. There also would be considerable cost 

to separate the utilities. Certainly, you could also work out a utility 

sharing agreement, because I looked at some of the utilities equipment and it has been upgraded and it looks like a very viable system serving both of the units. But that could be done. 

So I guess a two-part question. I guess your first preference 

would be a conveyance? 

Mr. PADRON. Absolutely. 

Mr. MICA. And then secondly, you feel that you could assume 

taking the building in its current condition and being responsible 

for its upgrade? 

Also, is it possible, Mr. Smith, to keep the title and work out 

some sort of an arrangement with the community and the college 

for them to acquire the property, at least for utilization? 

Mr. SMITH. For an interim use, or a long-term lease? 

Mr. MICA. Well, a 99-year lease. I don’t know. So far we are up 

to five years, and it’s got to be $5 or $6 million. The thing is sitting 

vacant. We are incurring costs on a vacant building that is substantial. Again, the clock is ticking and it is costing the taxpayers 

a lot of lost revenue, in my opinion. 

Can something be done? I mean, is there any creativity at all in 

GSA, or do you lack flexibility because of the law? Is there something we need to do? I want to take full responsibility if Congress 

49 

is tying your hands or the law doesn’t allow you the flexibility you 

need. Speak now or forever hold your peace, as they say. 

Mr. SMITH. Sir, I think we have the flexibility. We just need to 

make the right arrangements. 

Mr. MICA. You do. Yes. 

Mr. SMITH. And I don’t know the exact details of it, but the college is obviously very savvy at working these, and if we can sit 

down —— 

Mr. MICA. It sounds like they have already done this. I mean, 

they could practically write the primer on this, but the problem is 

nothing happens. 

I love Miami. I love coming back here. I enjoyed being here to 

do the other hearing. But now this is March, and we want to see 

something happen. 

So I am going to ask the staff, too, let’s get from GSA a time 

frame of what is required for them to accomplish to get this done, 

either a transfer conveyance and some sort of a chronological order, 

that is one; or two, if they are not going to be able to convey it or 

don’t feel they have the authority and Congress doesn’t want to 

grant it if we have to, then do we put it up on the market and we 

stop the bleeding. 

But right now we are closing essential services across the country as I am sitting here. There are government services being shut 

down because we are almost bankrupt. I have this property. We 

have done four properties so far, probably just $100 million. That 

is peanuts, I guess, when you are sinking in trillions, but that adds 

up to billions. If we have 13,995 other vacant properties or buildings or under-utilized assets, that must add up to some real money. 

We haven’t gotten to the 7,000 acres and 500 buildings in Beltsville, Maryland on the periphery of the capital that we visited 

about two weeks ago. But no one has a plan. I was the first member of Congress I think to show up, except for the local members, 

since probably 1932 on the property and say what is the plan, what 

are you doing with this. 

Do you see this repeated throughout—well, you just have the 

South, Mr. Smith. Do you see this repeated across the country and 

in the territory that you have? 

Mr. SMITH. Well, sir, we are responsible for the PBS properties. 

In my testimony we talked about 834,000 buildings with 26 landholding agencies. The GSA has about 9,600 of those 

Mr. MICA. Right. 

Mr. SMITH. I have about 1,600 of those. 

Mr. MICA. You don’t have the Agricultural Research Service in 

your region? 

Mr. SMITH. They are in our region, but we don’t manage those 

properties. 

Mr. MICA. Tomorrow I am going to visit 200 acres in front of a 

resort. I am from Miami. I never knew we had that property. But 

I was told we have over 200 Agricultural Research Service Centers 

across the country, a lot of them dating back to the 1930s, and 

some pretty valuable property and assets. You can imagine the 

7,000 acres, the 7,000 acres in Beltsville, Maryland. Seven thousand acres is larger than the city of Key West. Again, we had pictures at our hearing in Washington of office buildings with vines 

50 

growing over them. We had broken-out windows, just vacant structure after structure. We are the trustees for the public and letting 

that occur. That is just not acceptable. 

So my question to you is you believe you have the authority to 

dispose, but somebody has to make a decision; is that correct? 

Mr. SMITH. We have a process to follow, and some of it is due 

diligence, part of it is working with other sponsoring agencies. 

Mr. MICA. Do you see anything in that process that we could revise that would expedite this? I mean, this one is five years, clock 

ticking, two years before some plans being made, but everything 

being trashed because nothing is being done, right? Yes. I mean, 

that is the facts. 

Mr. SMITH. If I had my druthers and I didn’t take my oppor- tunity a minute ago, sir, I would ask for $60 million to repurpose 

it for government because we have —— 

Mr. MICA. Do we have any other vacant space down here? 

Mr. SMITH. We don’t have much vacant space. We have 3 million 

square feet of lease space. 

Mr. MICA. Do you include the postal facilities? 

Mr. SMITH. We don’t. 

Mr. MICA. No, you don’t, and that is another one in DOD, and 

we do. So we are going to be looking at those too, because I can 

show you even in my district up in Central Florida, where I don’t 

have any Federal buildings, postal buildings that are under-utilized 

or vacant, and some DOD property. So we have assets sitting idle, 

not utilized. But nobody makes a decision. That is part of this process. Mr. Denham and I crafted legislation to create a BRAC-like 

process so somebody could make a decision, and that did not pass. 

But we are looking at that, and we are looking at some revisions. 

But again, my question is if there is anything, even if you don’t 

want to put it in public testimony today, that you could provide to 

the committee that would provide you with the tools to better do 

this job. And I love Mr. Goldstein, he is great, but he is sort of 

like—I saw the forensic school down here. You know, he is looking 

at the corpses and the body and the scene of the crime and reporting on it, and it is much too late with Mr. Goldstein. I love Mr. 

Goldstein, I love GAO and what they do. They do a great job for 

our committee and the various committees. But again, they are reporting the carnage. 

Mr. GOLDSTEIN. We kick a lot of dead horses. 

Mr. MICA. Yes, exactly. What I am trying to do when we do 

these, and if I have to come again, maybe next time I will have to 

chain myself to the door of the Dyer Building to get some attention 

or something, but we are going to find a way. 

This could be our third victory, Dr. Padron, small victories, but 

we’re going to figure out some way to do this. So again, Dr. Padron, 

you are willing to take this on, right? 

Mr. PADRON. Absolutely. 

Mr. MICA. Accept conveyance. You are willing to assume responsibility for the cleanup, fix-up and utilization, right? You are willing to work out some arrangements for utilities. Of course, you will 

probably find the most expensive solution dealing with the Federal 

Government on that. God forbid we should share anything. And 

then would you even consider a long-term lease if the Federal GovVerDate Aug 31 2005 10:13 Jun 25, 2013 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00054 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 C:\DOCS\81525.TXT APRIL
51 

ernment had to take it back in the future so that could be done 

too? 

Mr. PADRON. The first thing is an absolute yes. The last one, I 

will have to check on that. 

Mr. MICA. Okay. 

Mr. PADRON. The problem that we have is some state regulations 

in terms of investing in properties that we don’t own. But that is 

definitely something we can look at. 

Mr. MICA. All right. Well, we want to explore all possibilities. 

Mr. PADRON. Absolutely. 

Mr. MICA. If worse comes to worst and we can’t get it for MiamiDade College, then we have to get this off the taxpayer deficit column, out of the deficit column and into a productive column. 

Mr. Goldstein, we look forward to seeing you in Washington with 

a May and a fall report. 

Let me just check through this for a second here. 

On June 10, 2010, President Obama issued a memorandum entitled ‘‘Disposing of Unneeded Federal Real Estate,’’ which directed 

the Office of Budget and Management to work with agencies to 

produce no less than $3 billion in cost savings by the end of fiscal 

year 2012. 

I am going to ask Mr. Goldstein first if you know where we are 

in this. Do you have any idea? Then I will ask Mr. Smith from 

GSA. 

Mr. GOLDSTEIN. I personally don’t, sir. I think GAO has done 

some work in this area. I would be happy to provide some information for the record. 

Mr. MICA. Could you provide that to the committee? 

Mr. GOLDSTEIN. Be happy to. 

Mr. MICA. We passed 2012. We are supposed to have $3 billion 

in savings, as Mr. Smith reported. Since 2005, in this region, we 

have actually realized $20 million. 

Mr. SMITH. $20 million in sales, and we don’t count the amount 

of property that we give up to a 100 percent discount. 

Mr. MICA. But we have a long way to go for the whole country 

for $3 billion. All right. And do you have any indication the whole 

GSA-wide for savings? 

Mr. SMITH. In my written testimony on page 2, it does say that 

the initiative is on track to be published online next month. I believe the OMB website will have the accumulation of those sales, 

and I think it may be by agency, the actions that were taken under 

the President’s memorandum. 

Mr. MICA. Okay. We can also get that made part of the record. 

Mr. Goldstein, the Federal Government has built 33 new courthouses since 2000, and you gave us some indication of how much 

excess space there was. Could you repeat that again? Do you have 

that handy? 

Mr. GOLDSTEIN. Yes, sir. We had found that between 2000 and 

2010, of the 33 courthouses that were built, there was 3.56 million 

square feet that was overbuilt in the three categories I mentioned: 

one, above authorization; two, because of inadequate judgeship projections; and three, because of a lack of sharing, particularly among 

the district judges. 

52 

Mr. MICA. One of the other things that is of concern, we do build 

these new courthouses, and we have existing courthouses, is the 

issue of security. The number of threats have increased, more than 

doubled between 2004 and 2010 according to information provided 

to our committee. Any word on how we are meeting that Federal 

courthouse security problem since 2011, Mr. Goldstein? 

Mr. GOLDSTEIN. Two things, sir. One is that costs for security 

have risen, obviously, considerably over the years. Courthouses cost 

a lot more to build than they did in the past, in part because of 

that, because you need separate circulation patterns for the judges, 

for the public, and for the marshals with their prisoners, and this 

includes different elevator banks and complete circulation patterns. 

So naturally, that adds significantly. We did a report several years 

ago that actually looks at the rising cost and what the parameters 

were within courthouses, and security was one of the largest drivers of that cost. 

More recently, the Marshals Service has taken over through a 

pilot project much of the security at courthouses. As you know, the 

perimeters of courthouses are protected by the Federal Protective 

Service, the interiors and the judges by the marshals. But this pilot 

is slowly but surely shifting that terrain to the Marshals Service. 

Mr. MICA. Okay. I noticed too in the periphery of the Dyer Building and the Ferguson Building that the public is allowed public access on the streets. Some of it is closed off to vehicular traffic, but 

that would not need any change in operations? Does anyone have 

any concern about that, Mr. Smith? 

Mr. SMITH. I don’t have details on that, sir, but we can get back 

to you. 

Mr. MICA. Then again, we are looking at a public street on one 

side, and now it will not be a courthouse. It will be Miami-Dade. 

I don’t see any barriers or barbed wire on the other side of the 

street, so it would be utilized by the college. It is adjacent to Federal properties and judicial properties, and I think there was some 

concern about sealing some access on one side that faces. Dr. 

Padron, that could be resolved do you believe? 

Mr. PADRON. Oh, absolutely. We have had discussions when we 

have toured the building about the areas that would need to be 

sealed to prevent access into the adjacent courthouse, and we have 

full understanding of that and are ready to work very collaboratively to get that accomplished. 

Mr. MICA. I guess we are getting towards the end here. Mr. 

Smith, to what extent is GSA engaging with the judicial branch to 

assist with their comprehensive real estate asset plans? I mean, 

this isn’t the only Federal facility, and we do have various needs, 

and also disposal issues. To what extent are you all engaging with 

the Judiciary? 

Mr. SMITH. My region is particularly engaged on that, sir. We 

have about 22 non-resident courthouses that cost us money. We 

don’t make money on those. They are very expensive to operate. 

But we also want to help the courts operate more effectively and 

efficiently, and we meet with them on a monthly basis, and we are 

continuing to work with them to see where we can find efficiencies, 

if we can close some of these courthouses and find other solutions 

to those as well. 

53 

Mr. MICA. Okay. In closing, Mr. Smith, the staff calculated since 

my hearing here at the beginning of August until today it has cost 

close to half a million dollars just to maintain the vacant building 

down the street, the Dyer Building. The clock is ticking. The cash 

register is ringing up deficit spending. We are closing down facilities and services to the public because we are basically on the 

verge of financial disruption in the country. Do you think you can 

work with us on some sort of schedule to take this one off the taxpayer most unfavored list? 

Mr. SMITH. We are very anxious to do that, sir. 

Mr. MICA. Okay. Well, we are counting on you. You know, I try 

to do these, and we try to work with the agencies, the GSA. We 

have had problems. Of course, last year they did not have a good 

year, starting with the guy in the hot tub, spending money like a 

wild man at the conference, nor did we have a good one with some 

of the other actions by some of the folks, and many of those people 

are now history, and others are trying to pick up and do a better 

job in working with various new administrators, new building commissioner and others to see if we can assist. Part of this is motivational, and hopefully inspirational, and maybe a little spiritual, to 

get GSA moving and assist any way we can. 

So we want a positive outcome, and I hope I don’t have to come 

again, Dr. Padron, unless it is for some conveyance ceremony to 

which I might get an invite. 

But I want to thank you all. Does anyone have any final comments? Mr. Smith? 

Mr. SMITH. No, sir. Thank you for keeping us on the ball. This 

is very important to us as well. 

Mr. MICA. I am sure you enjoy this. Maybe later on you can have 

some root canal work done. 

Mr. SMITH. This is very important to us as well. 

Mr. MICA. To get even, on Monday at 7 o’clock, I will be in the 

dental chair myself, so you can take some consolation in that torture of Mr. Mica. 

Mr. Goldstein? 

Mr. GOLDSTEIN. I appreciate the opportunity to be here and look 

forward to testifying again in May, sir. 

Mr. MICA. We will continue on this. We only have, like I said, 

13,995. Much to the chagrin of folks, I am back in Congress and 

can continue to do this, and will, because I think it is important. 

Dr. Padron? 

Mr. PADRON. Just to thank you, Mr. Chairman, for caring. 

Mr. MICA. Well, thank you again, our witnesses and this opportunity to hear about a particular situation in Miami with the Dyer 

Federal Courthouse, was also Federal properties, the Ferguson 

Building, other Federal assets throughout the region and the 

United States that are under-utilized. This is a field hearing and 

just a small, myopic view of one situation and one instance where 

we have, unfortunately, poor public policy in place and lack of action to resolve fiscal issues. When you add them up across the 

country, they account for not only millions but billions of taxpayer 

dollars. 

So it is my intention to continue this effort. I thank everyone for 

cooperating in this hearing. We do, with the cooperation of the miVerDate Aug 31 2005 10:13 Jun 25, 2013 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00057 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 C:\DOCS\81525.TXT APRIL
54 

nority, intend to leave the record open for a period of two weeks. 

We may have some additional questions for our witnesses, and we 

may also have you or others offer to the committee additional testimony that would be included as part of the record. 

Mr. MICA. There being no further business before the Subcommittee on Government Operations, this hearing is adjourned. 

Thank you. 

[Whereupon, at 4:17 p.m., the subcommittee was adjourned.] 

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