U.S. Access Board **Public Information Meeting on Bus Ramps**  **and Updates to the ADA Vehicle Guidelines**  Wednesday, September 19, 2012 Washington, DC CART Services Provided by Metro Reporters MEMBERS PRESENT: James Bartel, President, AQBOC Technologies Steve Asztalos, Dallas Smith Corp. Rhonda Neuhaus, Policy Analyst for Government Affairs, DREDF

Jeremy Pisigan, Dykema Krystian Boreyko, Training/Tech Assistance Spec
. , Easter Se als/Project ACTION

Kerry Legg, New Flyer Industries Ghosh Choudhury, Manager, Bus Procurement, WMATA

Jonathan Walker, WMATA Cleatus Lewis, Engineering Manager, Lift
- U Marsha Mazz, Access Board John Day, Federal Transit Administration, US Dept. of Transportation

Thomas Fodor, Architect, US Dept. of Justice David Knight, US Dept. of Justice Christopher Hart, Public Member, US Access Board David Capozzi, Executive Director, US Access Board Melissa Anderson, Transportation Engineer, US Access Board Scott Windley, Accessibility Specialist, US Access BoardU.S. Access Board

**Public Information Meeting on Bus Ramps and Updates to the ADA Vehicle Guidelines**  Wednesday, September 19, 2012 Washington, DC

>> SCOTT WINDLEY: Okay. So I think we're ready to roll now. Are we not? Is CART ready to go? Okay. Making sure
-- I'm just making sure she's good to go, so...all right. I think Melissa is going to have to be my clicker, so
-- but let's start out with introductions since we're a small group and we'll be first to do that. I'll just start it out here. I'm Scott Windley. I'm staff with the Access Board and I'm the lead staff person on our transportation rule for transportation vehicles. Some of you may know Dennis Cannon who pre ceded me in this position, and we miss him greatly, but we'll try to get through the rulemaking without him. And so anyway, that's me and I'll be talking to you more about kind of what we're going to be doing today in just a few minutes and I'll turn the mic over to Chris, so...

>> CHRISTOPHER HART: Good morning. Chri s Hart. I'm a public member for the U.S. Access Board. I was appointed to the Board a year ago, and I chair the transportation vehicle. So it's my pleasure to welcome all of you here and I look forward to a very constructive dialogue today.CART Services Provided by: Metro Reporters

US Access Board Public Information Meeting Unofficial Transcripts September 19, 2012 Page 3 Washington, DC

>> SCOTT WINDLEY: Great. So let's go around the room. Do you have a mic
-- we'll need to get you a mic.

>> I have an extra one.

>> Hi. I'm Rhonda Ne uhaus with the Disability Rights Education and D efense F und, DREDF. Can't stay the whole morning but I'll listen in. Thank you.
>> My name is Jerry and I'm with Dykema and I'm just here to get some information.
>> My name is Steve Asztalos, an d I'm with Dallas Smith Corporation and we are bus builders. >> Good morning. My name is Kerry Legg . I'm the vehicle safety and regulatory compliance manager with New F lier Industries.

>> I'm Ghosh Choudhury from WMATA and I'm the bus manager. >> I'm Cleatus Lewis, engineering manager.

>> I'm Marsha Ma zz, the director of the Office of Informatiom and Technical S ervices at the Access Board and my claim to fame is that I hired MelissaCART Services Provided by: Metro Reporters

US Access Board Public Information Meeting Unofficial Transcripts September 19, 2012 Page 4 Washington, DC Anderson behind me.
>> Hi. I'm John Day, Federal Transit Administration, Department of Transportation.

>> I'm Jim B artel from AQBOC Technologies and we are a bus manufacturer.
>> Good morning. I'm K hristian, with Easter S eals and we provide accessibility issues around public transit.

>> SCOTT WINDLEY: And the all
- important T ransportation E ngineer...
>> Melissa Anderson, T ransportation E ngineer and official clicker with the Access Board.
>> I'm Jim Raggio, the G eneral Counsel with the Access Board.

>> SCOTT WINDLEY: Your mic doesn't seem to be working really well. There is another mic here
-- a couple of mics on this front table. So if anybody comes in and needs a mic, we'll try to distribute appropriately. So let's start out with what we're here for. Why are we here? Thank you. So this is a public information meeting. It's a little bit different than a hearing.CART Services Provided by: Metro Reporters

US Access Board Public Information Meeting Unofficial Transcripts September 19, 2012 Page 5 Washington, DC We're not going to just sit here and listen to you speak. We would like to have a dialogue and discussion of some issues and try to discuss it together rather than just sitting and listening and I'm going to do a quick little we l come and introduction and then we'll go into individual presentations and then we'll have a discussion. So next... So, you know, in all actuality, we have come a long way on the front of access to transportation. I found this on the internet in 1954, a bus that is actually from the University of Illinois that actually had a lift on it. It's kind of a scary bus. It doesn't have any edge protection or if I rolled out a little too fast, I might be in big trouble. So we have come a long way. Today, we 're going to talk about low
-floor buses and ramp slopes as well as maneuvering
-- a little bit of maneuvering at the fair box and things of that nature. We'll try not to leave the li ght s down too much because then everybody falls asleep, but the
-- so ho pefully we can discuss that and I'll just kind of bring up some of the issues that we have been made aware of by comments that came after the original comment period closed that made us want to
-- that precipitated the need to reopen the comment period and to have these discussions. So next slide, Melissa. So previous as you know, the old guidelines had a running ramp slope of 1:4 thatCART Services Provided by: Metro Reporters

US Access Board Public Information Meeting Unofficial Transcripts September 19, 2012 Page 6 Washington, DC started at the doorway and provided the largest maneuvering space at the fair box before you started on the ramp, which was a good option because you usually hit the ramp square instead of kind of at an angle and we're just going to quickly show you a little video of some of the issues with the floor ramp and why we wanted to change those requirements just to give you a li ttle bit of history. So we'll get that up here and just some examples of manual chairs trying to do the 1 in 4 slope or sometimes steeper depending on how it's been deployed.
>> Seen it 10 times. It hurts every time.
(Videotape)
>> Oh, he's coming out. That's what it is. Okay.
Okay. So as you can see, there's, you know, we do need to do something about the slope of the ramp. But here's the next slide, Melissa, if you can... the new 1 : 6 ramp slope that we have proposed, some of the issues that have been presented to us after, you know, comments we received after the original comment period was that with the hinge mid
- ramp it makes the change in slope or a grade break in the middle of th e ramp that causes, you know, that causes difficulty for people that aren't expecting a slope change in the middle of the ramp.CART Services Provided by: Metro Reporters

US Access Board Public Information Meeting Unofficial Transcripts September 19, 2012 Page 7 Washington, DC Next... And also the way it has been implemented is putting the part of the ramp inside the vehicle has caused there to not b e as much room at the fair box and it can cause problems with the turning space because you get one wheel off of the ground. Like I tell engineers all the time, you know, I do a lot of training for transportation engineers, unlike cars and vehicles, wheel chairs don't flex, so they, you know, can't adjust to elevation changes easily. And if you get one wheel off the ground, you have pretty much lost control of your chair, especially if it's the drive wheel that comes up off the ground. So, you know, you're going to go in whatever direction gravity is going to take you. So they have said that it's caused instability and loss of control of mobility device and we'll have a video in just a few minutes that kind of shows that we got from some of the comments that we received. And the next... So with that ramp being stuck inside the bus, it has limited the maneuvering space at the top of the ramp and within the bus it forces the mobility device to approach the ramp at an angle, causing the instability. Okay . So those that just came in, if you want to join us at the table, we're keeping it informal until there's no more room at the table. So, let's go and look at that second video, Melissa, if you can...
>> While Melissa is bringing that up, I just want t o mention that the commentsCART Services Provided by: Metro Reporters

US Access Board Public Information Meeting Unofficial Transcripts September 19, 2012 Page 8 Washington, DC that we received after the comment period are on regulations.gov and available for your review.

>> SCOTT WINDLEY: Yeah. So here's them trying to go up the 1 in 6 slope and the unexpected slope change causes them to get tippy. That's a technical term, you know, get tippy.
(Videotape)

>> SCOTT WINDLEY: As you can see, he's lost a lot of maneuvering space to the ramp, so... In this video, they're not all regular wheelchair users so there is a little bit of
-- there is a little bit of user error added to this as well because some of the techniques they have used, us guys that use wheelchairs all the time kind of scratch our heads and say why did they do it that way? But it does show
-- see, here's the problem where you get the rear wheel caught on that elevation change because you have to make the turn on the ramp instead of after you're done with the ramp.

>> CHRISTOPHER HART: It's always interesting to see people that are using 1970s wheelchair design for wheelchai rs. But powered chairs are actually realistic to what the
--

>> SCOTT WINDLEY: Except for the fact that we usually wouldn't stickCART Services Provided by: Metro Reporters

US Access Board Public Information Meeting Unofficial Transcripts September 19, 2012 Page 9 Washington, DC out feet out to try to save us.

>> CHRISTOPHER HART: Some of us might do that. It doesn't work well. >> Not a good id ea when you're going downhill. (Videotape)

>> CHRISTOPHER HART: If you ever have a chance to get a regular chair, you have a pretty substantial idea for how far we have come.

>> SCOTT WINDLEY: So the last thing I wanted to go over with you guys before we go into our individual presentations, I kind of already laid this out for you. But we're going to have
-- after I finish, we're going to have presentations by attend ees, anybody who wants to
-- I know I have had two people that indicated that th ey have presentations. If there's anybody that hasn't indicated that and does want to present something or just during our discussion, you can speak as well and we'll have an organized discussion, as organized as it can be and then I just also wanted to t hank you all for coming today to help us out with this issue. And hopefully we'll get...and one more slide, please. And, oh, wow, this is really kind of hard to read on here. I don't know how it is there. But these are the four questions that we asked in the notice of opening up the rule for more comments. And it's can a bus ramp with a slope of 1:6 be provided without a grade break and without compromising the available level space within the bus at the top of the ramp?CART Services Provided by: Metro Reporters

US Access Board Public Information Meeting Unofficial Transcripts September 19, 2012 Page 10 Washington, DC And how might bus kneeling a ffect these designs?
If the ramp slope were required to be uniform for the length of ramp with no grade breaks, how would such a requirement affect bus and ramp designs, manufacturers, transit operators, and transit users, including those with disabilit ies?
How much level space measured when the bus is sitting on a level surface can be provided beyond the top of the ramp? And how can the space be configured to permit individuals who use wheeled mobility devices to access fare collection devices and to turn on to the main aisle? How does the slope of the ramp, the location of the fare collection device and the configuration of the handrail affect the availability of this space? If level space were required at the top of the ramp to permit access t o fare collection devices and to facilitate turning into main aisles, how would such a requirement affect bus design, manufacturers, transit operators, and transit users, including those with disabilities? So those are the four questions that we're kind of here to discuss and anything else that we can discuss in regards to the ramp and maneuvering space at the top of the ramp. So, Melissa, why don't you go ahead and come up here and join us for
-- well, ICART Services Provided by: Metro Reporters

US Access Board Public Information Meeting Unofficial Transcripts September 19, 2012 Page 11 Washington, DC can help with the presentations for a while and you can be up here.
>> There is a sign
- in sheet going around. I'm not sure if it got all the way around. If we can get you to sign in. And when you speak, if you wouldn't mind introducing yourself so that our transcriptionist can make sure we get th e names correct. >> SCOTT WINDLEY: Yeah, and that helps all of us because it helps us to remember each other's names for our discussion today, so that's a good idea, Melissa. Thank you.

>> MARSHA MAZZ: Also, we need to make sure that we have copies of any presentations that are...

>> SCOTT WINDLEY: Yeah. We'll let Cleatus go first and then Jim of the two that spoke ahead of time and then we'll open it up for anybody else who wants to talk. So Cleatus? Does anybody have any observations or anything while Melissa is getting the next one set up? Don't all speak at once. Yes?
>> My name is G h osh Choudury . Let me give you the spelling of my name. First one is Ghosh and the last one is Choud ury and I' m from WMATA but before I came to transit, I used to work for worldwide bus company. So like I started my courier in 1969 and got
-- and I've been in the bus industry since my first transitCART Services Provided by: Metro Reporters

US Access Board Public Information Meeting Unofficial Transcripts September 19, 2012 Page 12 Washington, DC property I worked for Chicago Transit as assistant chief engineer and my family lives in North Carolina and I moved to Washington, D.C. close to my family. But anyway, I personally was involved to design the low
-floor buses and one thing I think the bus manufacturer has to do a little bit of expanding to that, we have a tremendous technological advancement now. With the air bag adjustment we can bring it down in the front a couple more inches, from 4 inches. We can bring it down to 5.5, 6 inches. What we did in the first low
-floor bus we have designed and unfortunate ly I don't have the picture with me. Next time I come here, I will bring some pictures and show it to you. The front end come all the way to the curb height and 7 inches with the air bag and the front and with the ramp, the manual ramp, we put the ramp c ompletely straight has no obstruction, nothing. And 7 inches down. That can be easily technically achieved. I think that bus manufacturer has to come up with some kind of design. Thank you.

>> SCOTT WINDLEY: All right. Thanks. So, Cleatus. Thin k we're ready for you.
>> Right. I want to get familiar with the clicker here. Well, my name is Cleatus Lewis and I'm a representative of Lift
- U in California and first of all I want to thank the board for the opportunity to participate in this discussion.

After Scott's lead
- in and some of the videos that we have seen, a bit of what ICART Services Provided by: Metro Reporters

US Access Board Public Information Meeting Unofficial Transcripts September 19, 2012 Page 13 Washington, DC had prepared as background is somewhat redundant. No need t o bore you with that. You know, I would like to again emphasize that, you know, when the 1:4 ramp is deployed to the roadway, it's still too steep and we saw that from the videos. This image here is a typical 1:4 ramp that pivots at the step edge and wh en the buses kneel, you're looking at 1 or 8 or better with the ramp slope and when it's deployed to the roadway, we're looking at the 1 on 4.
This is a couple of images of an incident that occurred in Long Island, once again, demonstrating that the 1:4 ramp is too steep to board from the street. You know, back in 2007, you know, after viewing many of these videos, Lift
- U took the resolve to try to figure something out here and we came up with a 1:6 ramp that, you know, we did introduce to the access b oard in our draft responses back in April. The 1:6 ramp as you can see has the pivoting part that extends outside the bus and then there's a slope portion that extends to the interior. This particular diagram is representative of the ramp that's in the Santa Clara and the lane transit bus. You can see that the slope portion extends in 28 inches.
Scott, you have already addressed these issues that have been raised by Santa Monica, Santa Clara, Lane Transit and Doug Cross. I would like to provide a l ittle broader perspective in that the only complaintsCART Services Provided by: Metro Reporters

US Access Board Public Information Meeting Unofficial Transcripts September 19, 2012 Page 14 Washington, DC regarding these issues received by Lift
- U were from these entities. You know, over the course of the last five years, you know, Lift
- U produced several 1:6 ramps, several thousand ramps that are in se rvice at over 400 transit agencies. These complaints are cited by less than 2% of the transit operators that have Lift
- U 1:6 ramp equipped buses. Moreover, the transit agencies continue to purchase buses with 1:6 ramps. Many are repeat customers. Several have gone to the extent of refitting retrofit buses and several with 1:6 buses. Immediately the absence of other complaints does not diminish the significance of those supported by the above entities. The user issues they describe in their reports are legitimate. However, the reports also include important information that should be underscored. The common thread among the complaint it is associated with wheelchair passengers boarding and the lining on the 1:6 ramps deployed to the sidewalks. Also, VTA and Lane Transit have taken certain measures to improve wheelchair passenger usability in 1:6 ramp equipped buses such as wheelchair lift recommendations to not kneel the bus when deployed to the walk or to at least minimize the grade break and added a bumper to influence toward the ramp level rather than allowing them to cut the corner on to the slope surface near the door. Also Lane Transit has replaced the fare box pedestal with a smaller version to increase the level floor space to the top of th e ramp. Santa Clara and Lane Transit acknowledge their operational changes to a certain extent to improveCART Services Provided by: Metro Reporters

US Access Board Public Information Meeting Unofficial Transcripts September 19, 2012 Page 15 Washington, DC usability and reduce the number of incidents. It should also be said that Santa Clara indicated in their report boarding the 1:6 ramp from street l evel is an improvements over the extremely difficult 1: 4 ramps.
With respect to the questions that the Access Board asked, there's regarding environmental constraints, potential ramp designs and I would like to take a look at some of the environmental c onstraints right now. For a ramp to achieve a flatter slope, either the vehicle floor step edge must get lower and/or the ramp must get longer. There are two environmental factors that both restrict and affect ramp length. One is the built environment and the second is vehicle space constraints. The two combined present a formidable challenge for manufacturers. Space constraints in the urban built environment limit the deployment of longer ramps. Topographic conditions in the built environment such as curb heights, road crowns and a multitude of combinations thereof can adversely affect the curb ramp slopes. Space constraints and contemporary buses limit the integration of longer ramps. Several vehicle design factors contribute to space constraint s and therefore the ergonomics of a ramp system which ultimately impact the ease of which a wheelchair user boards and the lights from the low floor bus. Restricts ramp width, chassis construction and limited floor space as well as ramp length and storage space.CART Services Provided by: Metro Reporters

US Access Board Public Information Meeting Unofficial Transcripts September 19, 2012 Page 16 Washington, DC Step height which is a function of vehicle chassis design, suspension, tire diameter, ground clearance, approach angle and the extent to which the vehicle can be kneeled affect ramp length and slope. Vehicle vest i b u le slope which presently rang e from 1 to 4 degrees is also a function of chassis design affecting vehicle entrance slope, ramp installation, incline angle, ramp slope, and compromises level floor space. This particular detail which hasn't received much attention in the past warrants further explanation. The step edge on most heavy duty low
-floor transit buses is not on the same plain as the bus floor at the aisle. A 12 inch or lower step height is not merely the bus kneeling. Due to chasis, ground floor floors, et cetera, in order to achieve a low step most buses include some floor incline from the aisle down to the step edge. The result of vestibule slope or transit buses once again ranges from 1 to 4 degrees. Steeper vestibule slopes are cheaper among lighter duty or cut
- away buses built on truck chasis . For example, these vehicles have kneeled aisle heights of 17 to 20 inches with an entrance step at approximately 12 inches. Some cut away vestibule slopes are as steep as 9.5 degrees w hich is 1:6. In the commentary in the July 2010 NPRM the Access Board stated buses have been designed with lower floors and less ramps. Close quote. And in the corresponding footnote, quote, low floor ramp buses available today have floors that are 14 t o 15 inches high and can kneel to as low as 10 inches, close quote. Of the dozen or so bus models offered by the eight major players in the heavyCART Services Provided by: Metro Reporters

US Access Board Public Information Meeting Unofficial Transcripts September 19, 2012 Page 17 Washington, DC duty low floor transit market only two floor buses kneeled lower than 11 inches. Circulation space within the front of the vehicle is restricted by wheel wells, driver platform, fare box collection device, fare box pedestal, and handrail. Since it's not practical to change the built
- in environment to accommodate longer ramps, the burden falls on bus chair ram ps to provide the better solution. I would like to present two progressive ramp designs. The first is a modification to the current one on 6 designs that increases the portion
-- a portion of the floor space. Recently Lift
- U has explored geometry alternatives to the outboard away from the aisle, thus increasing the level floor space forward to 8 inches. We intend to implement this enhancement on the 1:6 ramp as quickly as possible. The extent to which this transition APEX can be moved is greatly dependent upon the vehicle configuration and this alternative is most beneficial for vehicles that kneel a step edge to 11 inches or less. If you'll notice from the slide this range, the interior slope portion only extends about 21 inches into the bus and the interior slope portion is a bit flatter. So that when it's deployed to a curb and not kneel position, once again you can see that the outer and inner slope is
-- and when it's deployed to the ground in the kne eled condition, you got the 1:6 and then a bit flatter in the bus. Second is a new ramp. In late 2010 soon after receiving the second complaint, Lift
- U beganCART Services Provided by: Metro Reporters

US Access Board Public Information Meeting Unofficial Transcripts September 19, 2012 Page 18 Washington, DC conceptualizing various designs that would adjust many of the user issues as possible. The go al is to work within the parameters of existing vehicle configurations and their inherent space constraints. In the end we came up with a design that is responsive to the majority of user complaints. A new Lift
- U ramp is a dual use device that offers a 1:8 maximum slope to a 6 inch curb intelligence transfers to a 1:6 curb to the roadway. The dual mode ramp design eliminates the grade break within a single ramp run regardless of whether the ramp is deployed to the curb or roadway. Further the dual mo de ramp does not compromise the available level floor space at the top of the ramp when it's deployed to a sidewalk. Alternatively when deployed to the roadway, an interior portion of the ramp lower on an incline and becomes co
- plain er on a ramp to achieve a 1:6 which does reduce to some extent the level floor space at the top of the ramp. Although floor space is somewhat reduced, the deployed ramp to the ground with a flatter 1:6 slope is far better alt enough than the steeper 1:4 ramp.

In addition the dual mode ramp minimizes the ramp exten d s beyond the doorway to approximately 48 inches. The same as most 1:4 ramps. Subsequently the ramp does not compromise the present deployment space provided in urban environments. The dual mode ramp will be production ready within the next few months. The timing of the Access Board's reexamination of the prosupposed ramp slopeCART Services Provided by: Metro Reporters

US Access Board Public Information Meeting Unofficial Transcripts September 19, 2012 Page 19 Washington, DC rule just happens to do incite with Lift
- U installing prototypes over ramp at both Santa Clara BTA and for beta evaluation. Those h ave been installed for almost a month now and the initial feedback has been extremely positive. In conclusion the Access Board asked four questions in the NPRM. In response to the first two questions, Lift
- U's presented two feasible ramp solutions. One is a 1:6 ramp with a revised transition geometry that provides a measurable increase in level floor space, outboard and away from the aisle. Second is the dual mode ramp that resolves all the issues previously cited when deployed to a curb. Both ramps d eployed to the roadway without grade break and provide a safer more user friendly boarding at bus stops without sidewalks than the steeper 1:4 ramp. Due to the vehicle constraints described above, response to the last two questions will require input fro m bus manufacturers and transit operator . The two designed provided by Lift
- U are just part of the solution. Level floor space can be leveled if combined with vehicle changes such as smaller or rear collection devices or rear floor box pedestals. Even g reater improvements for wheelchair users will be realized if ramp equipped buses were designed to kneel the step edge lower than 12 inches, designed with wider doors to accommodate a wider ramp, and designed to include vestibule slope that did not exceed 2 degrees. These vehicle changes would enable a greater variety of ramps with reduced slopes, including designs that comprise a shorter and flatter interior slopeCART Services Provided by: Metro Reporters

US Access Board Public Information Meeting Unofficial Transcripts September 19, 2012 Page 20 Washington, DC portion to maximize the level floor space. The transit ramp industry has evolved over the last 15 years to its present state. Many designs improvements have come about along the way, new and different challenges arise. Suggestion by some to allow transit operators when purchasing buses the option of selecting either 1:4 or 1:6 buses based on transit routes would in lift
- U's opinion create issues because buses are often switched between routes with different topographic conditions. Subsequently the potential exists for 1:4 ramps to be deployed to the roadway and this will unfortunately lead to wheelchair passenger accidents and lawsuits. The 1:4 chair that proposed the rule in the first place must not be forgotten. Bus accessibility will be overcome through innovation. Our immediate hope is that the Access Board will take all relevant matters into consideration, including feasibility before making my further revisions to the proposed 1:6 slope rule. Lift
- U appreciates the opportunity to participate in the rulemaking process and wishes to thank t he Access Board for their efforts to improve the accessibility guidelines for transportation vehicles. Thank you.

>> SCOTT WINDLEY: Thank you, Cleatus. That was very good. Melissa, can you get Bill's up. That's really
-- to see those new ramp de signs, we'll have to talk more about that during the discussion. Those were exciting.CART Services Provided by: Metro Reporters

US Access Board Public Information Meeting Unofficial Transcripts September 19, 2012 Page 21 Washington, DC Bill, you can go ahead. Jim. Sorry. My bad. >> I'm with AQBOC Technologies. We're a bus manufacturer. Our main products are smaller buses, typically categorized in the cut
- away design in the floor. We have pioneered several things there. We are working on a pusher bus which was presented after last year and conce pt stage and again at Bus Con and production version. But what I want to do is first off is make sure I was understanding the question properly on ramps and grades that the Board was asking. And if you look at the top
-- the top illustration here I believe is what we're posing in some of your questions is a 1:6 slope which we obviously support. All of our buses have no slopes anywhere in the bus or within the ramp that are greater than 1:6 and I think that is very key. We fully support a 1:6 and do not feel that a 1:4 is acceptable under any conditions for the situations you have illustrated previously and other work we have done on our own. Obviously when the ramp is deployed, the 1:6 to the ground and continuing the bus at 1:6, that is I think what you are qualifying is that the ramp cartridge is actually part of the ramp slope and one in the same. Now, as I go through this, I question that and also ask they consider the situation of what that actual angle of cartridge should be. In some cases, e specially on a small bus which is an entrance that is between the wheel bus, there are certain considerations that limit what can be done inside the vehicle from a slope. And that is the driveshaft. Current buses we all buildCART Services Provided by: Metro Reporters

US Access Board Public Information Meeting Unofficial Transcripts September 19, 2012 Page 22 Washington, DC and what all of our competit ors are trying to do to emulate us are rear-wheel drive buses. These are smaller buses and less expensive buses that are allowing use of low
-floor technology and access to a wider portion of the industry. Obviously when the ramp is deployed to a curb, t he slope becomes more like 1:15 and so there definitely is a break. So in theory, there is only one finite point where this is exactly one ramp and that is when everything is exactly at 1:6. There is an infinite number of positions where there is a break in the slope and virtually in real operation it will be
-- will have a break in the slope many times under normal applications because curb heights change, wheel surfaces
-- road surfaces change and heights of vehicles change with load. Next slide. As we said, this is a bus that
-- type of configuration of bus that we have pioneered and is currently in the marketplace in which you have a front engine, rear drive and an entrance within. This is proven to be necessary and we have been quite successful i n the last four and a half years since we have been in the marketplace. We currently have approximately 85 to 90% of the volatile market. Next slide... This just shows typical installation
-- ramps. Now, the illustrations you had on large transit and the presentation from U
- lift is one type of ramp which is a single
-fold ramp, leaf ramp that is utilized in those designs. We are using a bifold design in which the ramp surface is folded in the middleCART Services Provided by: Metro Reporters

US Access Board Public Information Meeting Unofficial Transcripts September 19, 2012 Page 23 Washington, DC and then deposited on top of the cartridge within t he bus. The reason we did this is because of our limitations of chassis and the need for drive shaft. Any single
-fold ramp would have gone through the driveshaft. So we had to go to another choice of ramp. This is just a competitor's ramp entrance. T hey're all using the same ramp. We pioneered the ramp in both length. Our suppliers have been very both Braun and Ricon have been supportive and are at... next slide.
The other type of bus product obviously is the one that was shown in the illustrati ons and also talked about by Cleatus and his presentation from U
- Lift or Lift
- U is a bus manufacturer and rail chassis integrated structure and in the past entrance is 4 to the front axle. Next slide, this shows the bus utilized in this product. Now, t his is the same ramp that we are using on our mid entrance, a smaller bus. Same width, same length and is a bifold. It is a
-- this actually is 1:6 but we're actually able to achieve a 1:7 in our kneeling capabilities. Our bus is under develop and we actually get to 1:7 with a ramp on this bus.

Next slide. This is just typical entrance. We have already cover these well in the other presentations. It's just showing what is typically out there today and as I go through this, I'll show where we have changed and what we think is achievableCART Services Provided by: Metro Reporters

US Access Board Public Information Meeting Unofficial Transcripts September 19, 2012 Page 24 Washington, DC in entrance criteria. Next. We did a little computer simulation here and some of you were in the board meeting a couple of months ago I presented this back then but I'll just go through it quickly because one of the things we did here was to look at what are our options. And one of the concerns I have and I think is very, very critical and what we have established out in the field and have gotten much feedback and success from our customers is that the path from the road surface or curb street surface to the bus is best when it's th e least slope and it's the smoothest transitions. Large slopes and abrupt transitions are very detrimental to traversing into or out of a vehicle of any type. And that's what I'm showing here is, you know, there's several alternatives, but the
-- it's not news -- next slide. It's not news to anybody here that this is an issue because the
-- next slide. The wheelchair is a very useful device and very maneuverable but it has some bad characteristics and it's got a very short wheel base and a very high CG which makes it a less than ideal state stability device. In fact, if you look at it, the front tip
- over angle of a typical 95th percentile in wheelchair is about 12 degrees, 1:4 slope is 14. That's why we are fully in support of making 1:6 the absolute maximum slope that should be allowed anywhere in a vehicle.CART Services Provided by: Metro Reporters

US Access Board Public Information Meeting Unofficial Transcripts September 19, 2012 Page 25 Washington, DC Next...next slide.
>> I'm not gettin g a next.

>> SCOTT WINDLEY: Is the computer locked up or something?
>> Yeah, that's the next one.
We did this computer simulation of a wheelchair traveling
-- a standard wheelchair traveling out of a vehicle at normal walking speed at 3 miles per hour. And the chart on the right here shows the wheel forces which indicate the impact it has on the passenger as it proceeds through this journey. This is an abrupt transition path and you can see the spike loads that occur. Next slide.
>> Maybe you want to try the clicker that you have there.
>> There it is. I don't know why these slides causes problems. This just shows the same path being occurred through a smooth transition ramp and the load forces are reduced. More importantly
-- next slide.CART Services Provided by: Metro Reporters

US Access Board Public Information Meeting Unofficial Transcripts September 19, 2012 Page 26 Washington, DC This shows a comparison of the two. But more importantly
-- next slide. Shows the impact on the customer literally. Head velocity change, and the head accelerations, which obviously is noted by, you know, by the passenger and is an indicatio n of instability. This is why we have spent a serious amount of time to make our transitions in and out of the bus as gentle as possible. What does this look like? Next slide. This is the entrance of our current product with a cut
- away which is an entrance within the wheel base. This has a 1:6 cartridge where the ramp is stored when it's not deployed. And as you can see throughout this area, we have done everything we can, there is a fully
-formed developed surface computer surface that immediately starts to transition as it
-- as the surface leaves the ramp. The idea is to make this transition as gentle as possible for all occupants, especially those in chairs. But all occupants do not feel abrupt surface change. Next slide. What this looks like in the actual vehicle, this is our spare mobility bus. Now, your questionnaire asked was effective kneeling on the properties of space utilization. We actually are the only manufacturer that has all three conditions. We have a bus that is within the wheel base kneeling. We have another bus that is not a kneeling bus within the wheel base. And of course we have the rear engine bus that has a front entrance that has kneeling also.CART Services Provided by: Metro Reporters

US Access Board Public Information Meeting Unofficial Transcripts September 19, 2012 Page 27 Washington, DC As we stated before, on the smaller buses where th e entrance is within the wheel base, the key limiter to anything is a drive line. Many attempts have been made throughout the years to do a front
-wheel drive vehicle of this type of bus to avoid the driveshaft. They have been virtually unsuccessful. On e of the main reasons is that no chassis are made currently that have a front drive axle, front drive system that are robust enough to operate in all conditions and full
-time drive. They're meant to be a supplemental. Not to be the main force of motivati on. And any operation that has hill turning or especially if it's in wet or snowy conditions, has poor traction which are further limited. These buses have been tried over a decade and never reached over 100 units a year because of these limitations. But as I said, this is a situation where the cartridge in the bus is 1:6. We don't think 1:6 is an ideal cartridge angle, but it is what is required on these to clear driveshaft and we have pushed the technology further than anybody else in lowering our d rive train to do this. So we think this is pretty much near the limit with any conventional drive will be on this type of bus. And I'll go further...the reason being is that when you're 1:6, the floor eventually is flat. You have to make that transitio n. The longer you stay at 1:6, the less zone you have to make that transition and the more abrupt it has to be. Next slide.CART Services Provided by: Metro Reporters

US Access Board Public Information Meeting Unofficial Transcripts September 19, 2012 Page 28 Washington, DC And this is our spirit of mobility bus. There are several things we do here is that we actually have an angled doorway. We d id this to allow us to move the doorway far as forward in the bus, which gives the driver straight view and access to the fare box and provides the maximum zone to transition in the vehicle. In this type of product, you have a fair amount of width once you get in the bus. You don't have a fair amount of length. So those are trade
- offs between the other type of bus and I'll demonstrate that more. What I'm indicating here is my concern is th at there not be a ruling that states that a flat area is defined as perfectly flat. That it is designed as a sharp edge because sharp edges and transitions are detrimental and we have indicated
-- we found that out through many of our customer base. Our competitors have also found this out because that is what they have tried to produce for the last three years copying us. And have been rejected, and each show is a revelation because all our competitors come out and say here is our newest bus and we th ink it's almost an ARBOC. We find that a real compliment. But we are very serious to the work we have done and our point is that if you have a curve surface within the bus but is within limits, that it is definitely stable. In fact, I know that the two gentleman down here from the Justice Department has been in our buses several times. I know you have made complimentary points about our buses but they have tried to measure our bus with instrumentsCART Services Provided by: Metro Reporters

US Access Board Public Information Meeting Unofficial Transcripts September 19, 2012 Page 29 Washington, DC that measure flat surfaces and they have difficulty bec ause there are very few flat surfaces within our entrance. We have done this by design. As you pointed out earlier that when you take a flat plane and you try to run it an angle going to the bus, one wheel of the chair comes off. We avoid this through this method. We have done this work and tested on chairs to make sure that at all points you have four wheels in contact or if you have a power chair, that you have your traction wheels in contact. And that is all part of our design process. We have s pent a lot of time doing this and it is important for the customer especially that this contact and stability we provided throughout that transition and that's what we have tried to do. Next slide. Now, this is our
-- we call our spirit of freedom. We have by the way, we introduced a mobility
-- spirit of mobility model four years ago and we have just delivered our 1,000th unit and we have 500 in our backlog. So we have been very successful. This is not a pitch. But we have been accepted quite well and as far as we know have not had any complains about our entrance. What we have done is we found out that our mission is to provide mobility and access of a low
floor type product to the widest possible customer base. So we have just introduced , we ca ll it the spirit of freedom. It uses standard suspension which means the bus cannot kneel. Whatever it is, it is. So we assure the customer under normal conditions we'll be 1:6, but we cannot guarantee it because obviously if a large group of passengers go in the back, itCART Services Provided by: Metro Reporters

US Access Board Public Information Meeting Unofficial Transcripts September 19, 2012 Page 30 Washington, DC will raise the front of the bus. It will not be quite 1:6. But we have got a
-- we have had a large request from our customer base that operate small operations, that operate at rural or more remote areas that do not want to work or have the sophistication of an air system on the bus. They're used to a simple bus, you open the door. The passenger comes on and you shut the door. And they don't have maintenance departments. They outsource their maintenance work, so they want a simpl e bus that works under all conditions. That is what we have done this for. It also is a lower cost bus. The way we have achieved this is the door is no longer angled like it was in the other buses, parallel which extends our slope available and we push ed our cartridge actually two inches outside the door to achieve this. Which means is that we have a slightly longer to get to the floor because our floor is not lowered now. It's higher. And the transition is longer here. Next slide. There's good n ews and bad news about it. You have a longer time to transition, but to clear that driveshaft, you have to stay at the 1:6 for a portion beyond the ramp. Whereas on our other bus, we're able to transition virtually as we leave the ramp, start our transi tion. We have a slope in here that extends beyond the cartridge before we actually start our transition. We are just getting this into production. We have our first customer is using this. We will monitor them very closely. So far it's been very satisfactory response,CART Services Provided by: Metro Reporters

US Access Board Public Information Meeting Unofficial Transcripts September 19, 2012 Page 31 Washington, DC but we have not
-- we have limited experience with it in the field. You also notice here that our door is straight parallel to the bus which essentially pulls our cartridge out and gives the longer time to get into the bus. The fare box request are versus a fare box and do we have a flat surface that allows access to fare box is an issue i n this kind of box because you are in a transition zone in either case. However, because it is a sloped
-- a warped surface that provides a stable position for the chair, we do feel it provides an adequate and safe position for people within a chair and w ithin the fare box. Obviously the spirit of freedom compromises that to the greatest extent and all of these entrances have been pulled out by Cleatus and others are compromises. Next slide. This is our new bus, which will be hitting the marketplace i n about six months, production version prototype was displayed at Bus Con last week and this is a picture of it. What we have done here is because of our
-- the bus we're using here, we used smaller wheels, used 19 wheels versus 24.5 inch wheels, tires. It allows for lower wheel houses. We use a special IV front suspension which allows for very large pass -through. We're almost 40 inches between the wheel houses. And we again, we do not put the cartridge in the vehicle at 1:6. Next slide. I know thi s is a bad picture, but what we have done is because again we use the bifold ramp and when it's folded over, we are so efficient in our package that we indeed protruded to the wheel house area which would createCART Services Provided by: Metro Reporters

US Access Board Public Information Meeting Unofficial Transcripts September 19, 2012 Page 32 Washington, DC a trip hazard. So what we have done is we h ave a motorized Stanchion so when this is in place, it is placed right above the edge of the ramp so it's not a trip hazard. Go back a slide. So it pivots out of the way and allows full access. Go forward two slides. This is a bus as we propose it an d this is one of the questions is I think that any regulation that is proposed sets a minimum standard, but does not is innovation and improvements beyond that. We in this bus placed the cartridge in a 1:8 within the bus. So we go from 1:8 to 1:6. In fact, here is about two degrees sloped and warped and again assure that you have 4
-wheel placement and stability for anybody going in the bus. It also says that when you put the same ramp to the curb instead of going 1:15 and 1:6 which once you're on a 1: 15 ramp moving and you hit a 1:6, it feels like a pretty good block there. A 1:8 is less so. So we have gone to a 1:8 as we feel is the best compromise here and my point is that if a ruling were to state that the cartridge had to be
-- or the ramp had to be a single plain throughout it and you limit the 1:6, it would actually force us to raise the floor of our bus. That is counterproductive to the operations, to space that will be available at the end of it and that is our concern right there. Next picture. This gives you a plan of we have been able to do. With our small wheel openings, wheel size, we have a wider on our suspension type, we have got a wider front. We obviously can kneel this bus to below 10 inches at the door. WeCART Services Provided by: Metro Reporters

US Access Board Public Information Meeting Unofficial Transcripts September 19, 2012 Page 33 Washington, DC can actually make a 1:7 but we'll guarantee a 1:6. Which wheel protects the corner and this is a path that allows you to start your turn, and we have developed our many surfaces so there are continuations of flow off the ramp. It's just like an intersection in any road i n the country. You do not have abrupt change when you get to an intersection. You transition as gently as possible. It also
-- all of our ramps are 34 inches. As you see bus designs, all of our designs allow that. We have great support from our ramp manufacturers so everything goes at 34 inches. What it allows is a 36
- inch area flat above the wheel house here. And the floor of the passenger does not impede anywhere within a
-- in the fare box zone, but also is completely within the zone for a pass enger who could stop and put fare in and the fare box here is the largest one out there. It's a GFI. They're a large box. But there are numerous number of boxes that could be placed anywhere within this area and we made sure that it did not intrude anyw here in the zone. We were able to accomplish this because we started with a green sheet of paper. We started new green field and optimized it. We also have a slide angle at the doorway. We do not have a 12 degree. We have a 5 degrees. It is gentle
en ough so that normal route can pull off curb and not have an issue, but the 5 degrees is what allows us to start us to get back and get around this corner in a much easier flow pattern.CART Services Provided by: Metro Reporters

US Access Board Public Information Meeting Unofficial Transcripts September 19, 2012 Page 34 Washington, DC Next slide. So just in summary, our positions are that
-- we agree that we need to limit slopes anywhere within the travel zone of the passenger no more than a 1:6. Should be 1:6 or less. There has to be a provision that allows that quarter inch transition because we work to drop our ramp within a pocket so we minimiz e that. But you can never guarantee. The quarter inch is always someplace where there is a misfit or something. We will allow a quarter inch to show up but we think that's the largest that can show up anywhere within it. We also think there needs
-- the ruling needs to recommend or permit all transitions to have a maximum radi i between slopes to reduce wheelchair occupants accelerations. And we want to be sure that it's acceptable space and flow but do not prohibit future improvements. And also any slope within the passenger compartment that is abrupt and greater than 4 degrees we feel needs to have, identified by warning yellow line. We have seen this and have done several trial on ours and we have noted on our current buses we are current
-- small buses, we have transitions in the floor, went tell you where, that are 2 degrees or less . Nobody's found those in
-- in a thousand buses, nobody's found those. They flow in. When you go to 4, you trip. And the problem is, is that an abrupt 4
- degree change in a floor without a marking is almost as dangerous as a step with no marking because your mind thinks
-- there isn't greater lighting and your mind thinks it's a continuous slopeCART Services Provided by: Metro Reporters

US Access Board Public Information Meeting Unofficial Transcripts September 19, 2012 Page 35 Washington, DC and you trip. So we have put very large radiuses in and one of my concerns is that how do we define a zone that our work or anybody's work that would make the flow dice and make the measurement that is only the flat part of zone that can be counted would penalize the design and really the usage of the vehicle for the customers. That is our main concern. I've gone on quite a while now. I appreciate all your patience and open to any discussions and questions.

>> SCOTT WINDLEY: Okay. Is there anybody else that wants to give any kind of pres entation on their stuff? Yeah? Go ahead.
>> My name is Steve Asztalos and I represent Dallas Smith Corporation. And we don't build buses but we provide chassis and suspensions for the bus industry. Mainly the small buses that Jim Bartel addressed. And the real issues we have are how they measure the floor. We have our ramp installed, very similar to Jim's where the cartridge is on the same angle. We're on 1:6, too ground, and of course that makes
-- if you deploy to a curb, that makes the chang e, you know, probably 1:8 or 1:10. But we never exceed 1:6. Also the ramp and then the floor transition goes up close to the center of the vehicle. But, again, we have to clear the exhaust in the driveshaft just like ARBOC does.CART Services Provided by: Metro Reporters

US Access Board Public Information Meeting Unofficial Transcripts September 19, 2012 Page 36 Washington, DC Those are fixed things that you just have to clear. And the
-- one of the main differences between ours and their it is the area where the wheelchairs go is flat, parallel to the ground. And we provide, working with the bus manufacturers, we provide at minimum of a 48
- inch circle at the top of the transition where the cartridge and then the floor slope to the middle of the bus. We have a 48
- inch flat floor circle to position the wheelchair so the wheelchair can go straight in and straight out parallel to the ramp.

The on ly issue that I see that affects
-- that really affects us is how they
-- how the ramp angle is changed depending on the floor height from curb. You know, if we can get 1:6 and get to the center of the bus and have the circle to turn the wheelchair, then
-- and then a flat floor for the wheelchair space, then the floor height, I don't understand why we have to change angles on that. On the chart that you had up previously, we had a 1:4, then 1:6, then 1:8 and 1:10 and it got all the way up to 1:12. And from the pictures, from the photos and everything that I have seen so far, if we can get 1:6 from the ground to the flat floor and have the area to swing the wheelchair, the 46
- inch or 48
- inch flat area, I think that should accomplish what you're trying t o do. And basically, you know, Dallas Smith Corps, Jim talked about the front
-wheel drive, and we do build that.CART Services Provided by: Metro Reporters

US Access Board Public Information Meeting Unofficial Transcripts September 19, 2012 Page 37 Washington, DC We have one customer that has over 200 of those and they're in Canada, you know, which does the extremes. The problem is those buses are very, very expensive. They are 10
-year buses but they are very expensive and they're subsidized a lot by the Canadian government. We have another order for 80 up there also, and we have probably built close to 300 units total in that configuration. But it is very expensive. I think that in the United States in the shuttle bus market we have to work around the parameters that Jim's discussed and that I've discussed which is the drive line, the exhaust, rear
-wheel drive, van
-type shuttles they're probabl y over $100,000 a vehicle cheaper. So that's what I would like to get accomplished at this meeting, is get this floor configuration straightened out. Thank you.
>> SCOTT WINDLEY: If there isn't anybody else that wants to talk right now, we might just take like a 10
- minute break before we go into kind of just an overall discussion or is there anybody that wants to say anything specific about their particular manufacturing or whatever? Or their thoughts on this stuff? Anybody? Okay. Let's take l ike a 10
- minute break. So the bathrooms are through that door, past the elevators and women's is onCART Services Provided by: Metro Reporters

US Access Board Public Information Meeting Unofficial Transcripts September 19, 2012 Page 38 Washington, DC the left and men's is on the right.
>> Anybody who did not sign in, can I have you do that, please, before you go?
(Break)
>> SCOTT WINDLEY: Let's get back to our little less informal, but still informal discussion here. Hopefully I haven't lost too many of you. Nope. I haven't lost you. Good. You're all here. So I'm going to let Chris start us out on this next phase.

>> CHRISTOPHER HART: Okay. Chris Hart, public member. I want to first ask Cleatus to show his video that he has. And then if Cleatus want to describe that video and then I'm going to ask him many questions, get discussion going. >> SCOTT WINDLEY: A ll right. So, Melissa, can you get that video up for Cleatus. >> Like I mentioned earlier, about a month ago we installed prototypes of the dual
- mode ramp at Lane Transit and Santa Clara and a couple of weeks after, John Fusco, our sales manager, went u p to Lane Transit, met with them. And they took the bus out on some routes and did some
-- took some videos.
(Videotape)CART Services Provided by: Metro Reporters

US Access Board Public Information Meeting Unofficial Transcripts September 19, 2012 Page 39 Washington, DC >> You can see here the ramp is deployed to a sidewalk and the vestibule floor is flat.
>> Now it's being deployed to ground le vel and unfortunately John Fusco didn't take video of that in Lane Transit and they made a trip over and one of our colleagues who is disabled
--

>> SCOTT WINDLEY: Your mic isn't on.
>> Okay. Here is a ramp deployed to the roadway and the person usi ng the wheelchair is an ambulatory passenger learning how to use a manual wheelchair so he's trying to negotiate. Still pretty steep. But it's better than
-- with a manual chair, it gets back to something that was discussed earlier and Jim brought it up also with the

-- where the center of gravity and the passenger applying force to the wheel rings and things can
-- there's enough i nertia to cause that to slope.

>> SCOTT WINDLEY: That second part of the ramp, that only has to happen when you go up to t he street, right? When you do it up to the curb, you don't have to do that second little drop, is that right?

>> Correct.

>> SCOTT WINDLEY: Great.CART Services Provided by: Metro Reporters

US Access Board Public Information Meeting Unofficial Transcripts September 19, 2012 Page 40 Washington, DC

>> CHRISTOPHER HART: And do you have a
-- it's kind of like asking how long is the stream. But do you have any idea based on your customer how often the street level deployment would occur versus a curb deployment?
>> That's going to vary with the different communities. Santa Monica and Santa Clara have also stated that the majority of their depl oyments are to curbs. I received an e
- mail yesterday with a cycle count on this new dual
- mode ramp at Lane Transit. So in less than a month now, they have deployed it 1,334 times to a curb and 288 times to the roadway.

>> CHRISTOPHER HART: Okay.
>> Thank you.

>> CHRISTOPHER HART: So one of the questions that has bounced around in my mind for a long time and so travel sensory is not always
-- is the degree to which the ramp design is integrated into actual vehicle design and I think for this, typically you guys h ave -- or is it a design process like ARBOCs does?
>> No, the Lift
- U and the Ricon products are drop
- in modules. Bus manufacturers may have to make a few chassis changes from time to time to fit the module, but other than that, it's just a drop
- in rep lacement. A mechanic can replace the entire unit in less than 30 minutes.CART Services Provided by: Metro Reporters

US Access Board Public Information Meeting Unofficial Transcripts September 19, 2012 Page 41 Washington, DC

>> CHRISTOPHER HART: Right. Right. So probably what I...various...was certain...was beginning to place the whole front vestibule and right
- of
-way design. And how can someone like Lift
- U with a major background get in the well discussion when say NOVA or NAVI or any other manufacturer begins to change their entry design? Or do you get
-- >> Typically, we provide an envelope drawing that has, you know, the width and length, t he major dimensions of the unit, its mounting points and then the bus manufacturer designs around that. As far as interior vestibule, we haven't really had much in the way of discussions of trying to open that area up. You know, I mentioned earlier tha t there's only about two of the heavy
- duty transit bus manufacturers that presently kneel lower than 11 inches. New Flier, Exceler is one and the nova LFS is another. And they both have wider door openings, wider vestibules. Because they kneel lower, th eir apex at the top of the transition at the interior slope portion is moved farther toward the step, so they have a flatter area.
By way of information, just this past Friday, John Fusco, our sales manager, was in New York with the ADA coordinator there and they pulled together three buses, an ORyan that had a wheelchair lift ramp in it, an Excelier and a nova LFS and they had disabled users boarding and aligning from the three buses and theCART Services Provided by: Metro Reporters

US Access Board Public Information Meeting Unofficial Transcripts September 19, 2012 Page 42 Washington, DC Excelsior and the nova LFS, they weren't having the same issue s that they were on the O Ryan and this gets back to this generation 3 that I referred to earlier where we're looking at moving the apex out board a bit to try to improve the level floor space. In the video, the dual
- mode ramp doesn't have that integrate d in it yet, but that's our intent, is to be able to move that apex out a bit farther as well for the roadway deployments. >> In the integration of the ramp and the vehicle I think by most manufacturers, at least for us, is integral with the whole basic design. You know, Lift
- U is a single fold ramp and the choice really at the beginning is will the single
-fold or the bifold serve the design better? In our case, we took the bifold. But, you know, we have been only in production for five years. At five years ago, there was a 32
- inch 48
- inch long bifold. I did a 1:4. We said that was acceptable. Brawn came up with a 1:5. I said that wasn't really acceptable. Use it. Ricon came up with a 1:6 in the same thing and then they also came up with a 34
- in ch ramp at the same time. So we work with both of them, kind of worked one against the other but they were both very active and the end thing is the industry now has a 34
- inch wide, bifold ramp and both are rated 1,000 pounds which start out at 600. So t he industry has been very active. We haven't worked with Lift
- U only because our design works better from our standpoint with a bifold ramp. Otherwise I can see from what Lift
- U has presented. They have been very active too and I'm sure they have the sa meCART Services Provided by: Metro Reporters

US Access Board Public Information Meeting Unofficial Transcripts September 19, 2012 Page 43 Washington, DC partner that the other two manufacturers were. But I think the ramp manufacturers have been very proactive and very responsive to bus manufacturers. >> I guess some of that question was related to us, Kerry Legg with New Flier. As far as how integral the ramp design is to the bus design, obviously a lot of the vehicles on the road today were designed back in the early '90s and back then we had a ramp which was integral that meant 1:4 and realistically hadn't been a whole lot of c hanges to that and over the time period it was more a matter of trying to meet the requirements for the vestibule
-way and the clearance getting to and from the areas. Five years ago I met with the board and basically asked them because the regulation sta ted 1:4, give us a regulation to design to and so it started off with suggestions for 1:8 and 1:6 and we found that we could design a 1:6. The Excelsior model which he mentioned which is a vehicle that has been designed around accessibility, trying to ac hieve the best slope that we can with the existing designs which we're working with, the axles, the tires, the other frame work of the vehicle. So there has been a lot of thought put into it. There will be further changes as time goes by. The whole con cept of the problem with a sloped floor at the fare box or, you know, tipping issues with having that portion of the ramp inboard of the step, these will eventually be addressed but it takes time, you know, got to get the engineers hyped up on caffeine and see what they can come up with.CART Services Provided by: Metro Reporters

US Access Board Public Information Meeting Unofficial Transcripts September 19, 2012 Page 44 Washington, DC But I hope that addresses your question somewhat. I mean, the newer bus models are obviously being designed with accessibility in mind.
>> CHRISTOPHER HART: So going along that line, to what degree will you see -- l et's say use a wider door at the front door and therefore you add a little length to that vestibule and you get a little more space at the fare box...go back to the drawing board and what if
-- >> Kerry Legg: Changes like that always bring on more issues to be addressed. For example, if we put in a wider door, that means our overhang from the front axle is longer. Breakover angles change. And now we're finding that because streets are not level, when the buses go around corners, bends up and downhills
a nd turns and thing and they're actually bottoming out at the front end so we're getting damage to the ramp so more things to try and work through. Wider door is obviously preferable. And in some places they actually prefer to have rear door access or ce nter door access to the wheelchair securement positions. That kind of takes care some of that. But like I say, every time you make an advance, sometimes creates more issues which then have to be addressed and realistically, you know, we're working on the se things, but it will take some time to get them sorted out.
>> To play devil's
--CART Services Provided by: Metro Reporters

US Access Board Public Information Meeting Unofficial Transcripts September 19, 2012 Page 45 Washington, DC

>> SCOTT WINDLEY: To play devil's advocate for a moment, I've always wondered
-- I know the fare boxes have to be there to collect fares. For the life of me, with all the electronics, you know, the smarttrip cards and all these days, there's not that many people putting in cash. I always wondered why it these go down to the ground. I mean, you could get a lot more space and get some room to maneuver your feet, you know, under the fare box if it didn't have to go all the way to the ground or if it was in a different location.
>> KERRY LEGG: The problem being is that we don't design the fare box or decide what fare box is going to get in there. Our customers tell us what fare boxes they use and then we have to try and design a something for that space and still get our wheelchair within the regulation. I like the idea of getting the fare box off the ground and it doesn't need to be that big anymore as you say because not many people are using cash. A lot of Smart Cards going on. But we're at the mercy of our customers in that respect unless they specify a fare box manufacturer that will work in that respect, we're still stuck with some of these fairly prehistoric fare boxes.

>> SCOTT WINDLEY: I have no experience with fare box manufacturers. But are any of them being, you know, looking beyond the dropping it down to the ground and being this big middle box that's in the way?

>> KERRY LEGG: The last expo in New Orleans, I talked to some GFI people. I think they're on making changes to very compact fare boxes with Smart Card orCART Services Provided by: Metro Reporters

US Access Board Public Information Meeting Unofficial Transcripts September 19, 2012 Page 46 Washington, DC electronic credit card. Those kinds of things that they're working on. I think in the next few years you will see some European style fare box collection system in this country also. And in Europe, they don't have fare box. It's punch the card and go away. So that's something that's coming
-- it's in the state of development. So as soon as we see that, I think that we'll have some better look. >> SCOTT WINDLEY: Because that's seriously prime real estate that could be u sed. >> That's right.

>> CHRISTOPHER HART: You just raised a very interesting question. Because you have experience, to what degree is
-- how will this best fit here in the U.S. to manufacturers and bus systems that's not being aware of what is avail able overseas? Is it b u y America? How do we incorporate best practices at industry level that we...or in Asia, but have not gotten to the rest.
>> KERRY LEGG: Well, buy America does fall into it a little bit, but typically since we don't install the fare boxes is not something that we as a manufacturer need to worry about. Although Buy America is a big consideration for us. We're trying to use new technologies as best we can. But once again, limited by the provisions of Buy America sometimes, we c an't incorporate some of the really nice stuff.CART Services Provided by: Metro Reporters

US Access Board Public Information Meeting Unofficial Transcripts September 19, 2012 Page 47 Washington, DC But what I think it really comes down to is dollar and cents. If you have a very large transit agency, let's say
-- I don't like to use examples, but let's say New York. They have fare boxes on 4,000 bus es and there is, you know, in order for them to change the amount to a new design or a new system is an extremely large amount of money that someone would have to, you know, outlay in order to do that. And I'm not saying it's not a worthwhile thing to do , but it's getting the justification, getting the authorization and getting the money in place to do that kind of thing. So a lot of times it really comes down to what can individual transits afford because smaller transits, it may not be a big thing for them to do. But for the larger transits it's quite an undertaking.

>> CHRISTOPHER HART: I was actually thinking not just the fare boxes, but overall vehicle design because certain Jim's diagram with a slightly angle door, international manufacturers figure out
-- >> KERRY LEGG: Make no doubt about I, we're keeping a close eye on our European competitors and I can't speak for the other U.S. manufacturers, but we're always looking for new ideas, better ways to do things, greener ways to do things, and s ometimes they look really good, they look great on paper. But they're also more expensive. And bottom line is a lot of buses are purchased with federal funding and if they want to get as many buses as they can for the amount of dollars that they have got, so they don't go for the more expensiveCART Services Provided by: Metro Reporters

US Access Board Public Information Meeting Unofficial Transcripts September 19, 2012 Page 48 Washington, DC options that are out there.

>> SCOTT WINDLEY: Not to beat the fare box to a bloody pulp or anything, but does anybody know
-- let's say they came up with a better design for the fare box. Is there any reason wh y newer buses, newly
- acquired buses wouldn't be able to have that better fare box and still be able to use the, you know, not make it so that the older fare boxes can't be used on the older buses? But I understand the whole thing of having to change out 4,000 fare boxes. I'm just saying maybe it has
-- because we do this in accessibility all the time. You know, newly
- purchased devices should meet the new requirements. Older devices until they get renovated, stay the way they are, so
-- >> Ghosh Choudhury : The way we procure the new buses, we buy the buses and give the bus manufacturer a sample of the current fare box. We don't buy fare box every year. We take the old fare box out and the fare box manufacturer come to upgrade with the new techno logy, electronic device on it. So all the J 1939 competitor and we use the same fare box. With the new fare box, we give the one sample to the manufacturer based on the design they have to provide the location of the fare box wherever you want.

>> MARSHA MAZZ: It would be helpful if people would say their names for the record.
>> Melissa Anderson: If people could say their names as they speak, that way we can keep better record. This is Melissa Anderson from U.S. Access Board. IfCART Services Provided by: Metro Reporters

US Access Board Public Information Meeting Unofficial Transcripts September 19, 2012 Page 49 Washington, DC there were regula tions that designated a turning space at the front of the bus, would that put a big cramp in the whole fare box turnover? Because I know our regulations apply to new and altered vehicles, but there does have to be a way to use old technology while the ne w technology is being transitioned in. Is that something that would have a really big affect on bus operations?
>> Can I speak on
-- so my name is Jonathan walker. I'm with GOSH as well, Washington transit authority, bus engineering. WMATA at this point in time is actually looking into advance technology as far as collecting fares and we're actually moving more towards an ATM
-type of device. But unfortunately that's three to five years away because of once again, there's always fundin g. The challenge that you have with bus manufacturers as well as fare boxes competition, so some may or may not know now at this point in time there's only two bus manufacturers in the United States. Likewise, the fare box, there's

-- correct me if I'm wrong, there's what, two manufacturers, okay. So what we're finding out is it's better for us to look at some of this more advanced technology, which is slowly but surely coming around and that will eventually hopefully free up some of the real estate sp ace. So it's a combination of timing and it has to do with who's actually in the industry at this point in time producing certain things versus what we currently have in our fleet.CART Services Provided by: Metro Reporters

US Access Board Public Information Meeting Unofficial Transcripts September 19, 2012 Page 50 Washington, DC I foresee in probably another three to five years that we will get to a point where the existing fare box that we have will be obsolete, but that has a lot to do with finding funding, finding manufacturers that have that capability, American manufacturers hopefully. There are European countries but then you get into the Buy A merica issue that the authorities are getting pushed more and more to increase their Buy America percentage and trying to find American companies who have that capability. So I think it's a number of factors. It's not just one factor. But I think in three to five years you will see a major change in the existing fare boxes that you see now on the buses will be no longer and that will free up some of the space needed.
>> I'm sorry. I'm Gosh...in addition to Jonathan's statement. Four years ago in Europe the buses and I said do you have an interest to come into the United States? We have buses, they have fare boxes and they're not there. And two months of liability and they try to stay away from that. The other reason in order to start coming that soon and our way that what we like to have. >> And just one more note also to let you know...the last count if I remember correctly, there's only roughly 4,000 buses per year produced in the United States for the U.S. >> Heavy duty buses, yeah. >> Hea vy duty buses. That's not a lot when you look at the trucking industry andCART Services Provided by: Metro Reporters

US Access Board Public Information Meeting Unofficial Transcripts September 19, 2012 Page 51 Washington, DC things of that nature. The thing challenge that we're having with moving to this new technology with ATMs and so forth, there is a lot of infrastructure cost that needs to be imp lemented as well because if you look at your ATM machines and so forth, those are directly connected to some type of network where they validate the transaction immediately, in seconds. So one of the challenges that we're having right now or they are loo king into is funding funding. WMATA is finding funding to get all that back
- end infrastructure set up so there is a lot of stuff in the back end, a lot of money, a lot of design and so forth that needs to be in place before you can in turn put these ATM
-type of devices on the buses. Thereby, getting away from the existing fare boxes.
>> Kerry Leg...in answer to Melissa's question, if there was a specific regulation which stated vestibule sizes and things, what affect would that have? Generally that would mean that our customers would find themselves in the position of having to procure new fare boxes before they could put the buses into service and they would generally not be in a very favorable position for that. I mean, we have well over 200 different transit agencies in North America that we service right now. And, you know, some of them have very expensive machines. The best one I ever saw looked like a big brass platoon. You walk in and throw in your coinsCART Services Provided by: Metro Reporters

US Access Board Public Information Meeting Unofficial Transcripts September 19, 2012 Page 52 Washington, DC and you're done. >> Who was that?
>> It was in Northern Fiscata and I'm not going to embarrass them by saying who it was. So every customer is different. But we don't want to put them in the position where
-- or put ourselves in a position where they would go with a competitor's produ ct because, you know, they promise they can make your fair box fit. Obviously the regulation needs to be in place for the passageway. But whether we can regulate out fare box sizes and that sort of thing, I'm not sure. >> Devil's advocate, what if in your current regulations we call out for 9
- inch
-- what if regulations called for 9
- inch turn curb under a fare box, what would that do?
>> Well, that would remove the fare box and the pedestal it's sitting on.

>> CHRISTOPHER HART: But I'm familiar wi th wheelchair GFI equipment. Half of that
-- is that the case in most GFI fare box vendors?
>> I can't answer that question. I don't know the interior workings of most fare boxes.
>> If you raise the fare box anymore, what we have now I think the maximum you can go is 6 inches with the large fare box but then
-- there is a regulation that driver responsibility so they would have to meet it so that means they can'tCART Services Provided by: Metro Reporters

US Access Board Public Information Meeting Unofficial Transcripts September 19, 2012 Page 53 Washington, DC go any much h igher
.

>> SCOTT WINDLEY: So what you're saying is the fare box has to go down to the ground. It can't be just a device that really has
-- I mean, does it have to be as deep as they are?
>> That is a very, very good question. That's the thing we have discu ssed, why have to be so big and so deep. I think that's the thing I just
-- they are getting new design, new, slimmer compact design which compares to the current technology. I think we are going to see very soon that kind of thing.

>> SCOTT WINDLEY: Okay. >> CHRISTOPHER HART: Jim, I think you were going to say something before. >> I go along with Kerry's note on fare boxes. We have got
-- we have a lot of buses in Calgary and they're very proud that they buy old fare boxes and u se them and we have had to go in and redesign our bus and put them in places that we never thought we'd have to.

>> CHRISTOPHER HART: Can I follow up on the comment of heavy duty boxes. I would like for all of us to know what the agenda was?

>> The volume of the
-- I have a chart in the bus industry that was done this 2001. Every year you change the date and nothing else changes. Basically as Kerry noted the big buses are 4,000 to 5,000 a year, period. AndCART Services Provided by: Metro Reporters

US Access Board Public Information Meeting Unofficial Transcripts September 19, 2012 Page 54 Washington, DC then the mid
- size bus manufacturers and the one under 30 feet are about 12 to 15,000 a year. And what ice been a big gap is the gap in between because the cut
- away market used to be known and still is known to pure high
-four cutaways as throw
- away buses. You know, I went to one on our dealers meetings in Hawaii and he said he started a maintenance schedule for small shuttle buses and everybody laughed because they don't maintain them. They just throw them away. That's one of the battles we had when we went to the same size bus with a low fl oor and basically we had to go in and first convince the university and the industry was that this wasn't a throw away bus because obviously whether it's Steve's design or anybody else's, if you make the low
-floor bus and make the modifications you do, the re is no way that you can compete dollar for dollar with a high
-floor bus built on standard rails. You know, it's a more expensive bus. You have to get functional value. So the duty cycle has to be longer on the bus and you have to offer them other thin gs and other efficiencies are the fact that you don't have steps so loading and unloading times and efficiencies go up. You know, the number of cycles that Kerry indicated that he saw on buses of use or Cleatus said on buses, we have a fleet in Lubuk, Texas. We have 16 buses down there. They run six days a week, eight hours a shift. They run 16 hours a day, six days a week. And when we started out, we started having problems with our ramps. It happened to be a brawn ramp. I'm not pointing fingers at them. But they wentCART Services Provided by: Metro Reporters

US Access Board Public Information Meeting Unofficial Transcripts September 19, 2012 Page 55 Washington, DC down there again and discovered that in two months they had 5,000 plus cycles only ramps. Engineers came back and said you're using the ramps too much. No. The answer was they're not using it the way expected. They're being i neffective. The Lu b bu c k, Texas has indicated that by use of our low floors there, that each bus saves 100 minutes of idle time that they can do something else with and they can make useful trips with. They take anything from normal passengers to passengers on hospital gurneys to dialysis on this bus all the way through, the full range of them. And that's what's happening and again it's the operational fleet that when you can use a bus like this and rather than normal use than having to call in a specialist, yo ur costs go down much lower. Frankly, when we started out our product, we did not expect as much of the current product to be used at normal route services as it is. We're having a tremendous amount being used in standard route service because it is efficient and effective and it also helps fight
-- one of the biggest problems fleets have is the ghost bus or empty bus syndrome where people call in and say I saw a bus go by three times and it only had six people in it. That can't be efficient. So a lot of agencies are using smaller buses. Are parking the big 40
-footers on off
- hour times and putting the smaller buses on the routes to be more efficient and get the operation costs down. But the quantity of the buses is very stable and if you take small to large buses, use it in transit or paratransit operation, you're talking a maximum of 20,000 units a year and that's the problem is you go to South America, I's 200,000. If you go to China, it's a quarter of a million or a halfCART Services Provided by: Metro Reporters

US Access Board Public Information Meeting Unofficial Transcripts September 19, 2012 Page 56 Washington, DC million buses a year. It's a whole different game.

>> CHRISTOPHER HART: I want to get back to one other question, Kerry, and...is when you think about having a bus, that passage way of the front wheels, how wide can that get given all of the regulatory requirements for vehicle size and for engineering of suspensions?
>> Well, I think I responded to that in one of the letters that I sent to Jim Pecht back in November 2010. And with the existing axles, we were looking somewhere in the range of 35 to 36 inches between wheel wel ls. So
-- and, you know, that also took into account that there needed to be some sort of tapering at the floor level to make sure that the buses were easier to clean and that sort of thing. But
--

>> SCOTT WINDLEY: What's the width of the cab in front of the rear wheel for like entry and the driver's seat and all that?
>> I don't have the front overhang angle numbers with me, unfortunately.

>> CHRISTOPHER HART: Would it be helpful in... my challenge is knowing fleets around the world and some ma nufacturers...have slightly bigger entry vestibules and if we could actually identify all of
-- and figure out who's doing what and have you at New Flier done that comparison of vestibule andCART Services Provided by: Metro Reporters

US Access Board Public Information Meeting Unofficial Transcripts September 19, 2012 Page 57 Washington, DC passageway sizes, has anyone?

>> KERRY LEGG: Well, yes. We h ave looked at that. Obviously if you look at a Nova bus, the front overhang in front of the axle is much larger there. Their front door is larger. But in turn they have more issues with approach angles than we do. The buses actually physically is maki ng contact with the surface whenever it's going into a parking lot or, you know, abrupt changes in the street configuration. So it's
-- you know, which way do you want to go? You can suffer more damage or you can, you know, try and work with what we have got and make it work. Because we think we can. You know, having larger door is desirable. We'll get as large a door as we potentially can. I really don't
-- what else can I tell you about that? I mean, it's a design consideration to try and prevent damage from the vehicle and to, you know, overall make the ride more enjoyable because when the physical structure of the bus actually contacts the ground as you're turning corners and things, it's a l ittle alarming for the passengers. >> We're not talk about how much a new bus contacts the curb or a
-- >> I think we have tried the front angle. We have purchased several hundred of the buses that you see on the street. Those are way, way larger fron t overhang and as Kerry mentioned we had some issues on that one plus you're addingCART Services Provided by: Metro Reporters

US Access Board Public Information Meeting Unofficial Transcripts September 19, 2012 Page 58 Washington, DC more structure and more weight. Those buses are 5,000 pounds heavier than the current Excelsior buses. I they back away from that when they saw the negative side. So the re are some issues there so that is correct.

>> CHRISTOPHER HART: Well, what would be
-- what would happen if it was in the guidelines or a requirement to angle the ramp a couple of degrees sooner than in the diagram to improve that approach into a pass age or aisle?
>> Kerry Leg with New Flier. Are you suggesting instead of having the doorway
--

>> CHRISTOPHER HART: At a 90
- degree angle. Just 2 degrees. >> That's a lot of design changes and it would have to go through Altuna testing again for th e structure. Difficult to say. I mean, it would change the whole appearance of the front of the bus, the location of head lamps. You know with the cut
- away it's different because the actual front of the vehicle is smaller than the back of the vehicle. On heavy
- duty transit bus, we're set with a front mask design. If we put that though on a slight angle as they have done, that's going to change the front mass design. It's going to probably or potentially remove the possibility of ever putting bike ram ps on the front of the bus. >> Kerry, I ask that because I'm seeing high turnover...certainly, Nova, Delaware
-

- why they're doing that and I...with their buses, so clearly
-- >> Yes, we are getting away from the box design. You know, it's not very
cre ative. We're getting a little bit more in the way of tapering and design stylingCART Services Provided by: Metro Reporters

US Access Board Public Information Meeting Unofficial Transcripts September 19, 2012 Page 59 Washington, DC and I can see for the nova to put this because it helps with their steering when turning. Does New Flier has any plans to do that? Most likely yes just to make the buses look for stylish necessarily but one of the advantages is that it could help increase the size of the vestibule or perhaps put it at a slight angle so that it's better room. But I can't guarantee that's the way it's going to go for right now.

>> CHRISTOPHER HART: Does a door type impact
-- San Diego has a buses on...does that change that
-- >> The single plug
- style door has its own issues. You could either have the plug go forward or back. If it goes forward, then there is the potential of it striking a pedestrian. If it goes back, it could hit the tire if the wheel is turned at a certain
an gle. We have pretty much stayed away from the plug
- style door on the front of the vehicle. We have tried it mid coach on the Invera design and with not a great deal of success. It certainly had a lot of design issues. Currently we're using slide glide doors on the front. We have had a lot of success with the maintainability, serviceability and they can come in larger widths as well. So realistically as long as we build an opening for them to put a door into it, it seems to work just fine. So it's a n overall design change and there will be new models of buses coming out eventually, but currently we're not doing that, no.CART Services Provided by: Metro Reporters

US Access Board Public Information Meeting Unofficial Transcripts September 19, 2012 Page 60 Washington, DC

>> CHRISTOPHER HART: Is it conceivable that a space that's identified for a rail to be dropped in, could that be angled without changing
-- and using a slightly wider door to get that same angle?
>> With our existing design, I don't think so. Not with the location of the wheel wells and it would be fairly difficult. I can't speak for all of our competitors. They may have pend ing designs out there, but currently we don't have anything like that. >> SCOTT WINDLEY: So is there anybody that has any other burning ideas or things that they would like to
-- sure. Go ahead. >> Sorry to do this so long after the video we looked at from Lift
- U, but when the ramp deployed, it looked like it unfolded and then dropped the 1:6 portion that's located inside the vestibule dropped into place. But is is structurally possible to keep that
-- I mean, can the ramp be made sturdy enough to w ithstand the design load and not drop against the 1:6 structure underneath?
>> I'm not sure if I'm following your question.

>> Okay. In the video, there is a part where it unfolds and then the top of the ramp kind of drops down into place at the 1:6 slope. >> When it's deployed to the ground?CART Services Provided by: Metro Reporters

US Access Board Public Information Meeting Unofficial Transcripts September 19, 2012 Page 61 Washington, DC >> Right. >> SCOTT WINDLEY: It doesn't do that when it's at the curb. It just stays. >> But where it creates the grade break with the rest of the ramp that's causing the issues that we have. >> If we're referring to the new dual mode ramp, there is no grade break. >> Okay. Back to the one where there is a grade break, which a re we going to get away from those, that would be good. But if the grade were held constant but the hinge were at the top of the ramp, is that possible? I mean, it looks like in the video part of the ramp was supported by the structure underneath. Does it have to be that way. >> The video which was the dual mode which has the operable ramp that's inside the bus. The other 1:6 design when the ramp is deployed, the interior portion is fixed and you'll notice that the pivot is not at the top of the step edge. It's in the side rails of, you know, an inch or so below when the pivot occurs and the inner ramp and the outer ramp all align themselves to be plainer and when it's deployed to the ground, there's no grade break. When it's deployed to a 6 inch cu rb, no kneeling, there's essentially grade break. Road crown, bus kneeling...a lot of times drivers are used to kneeling the bus all the time for ramp deployments. It's a carry
- over from the 1:4 ramps. That was a standard practice. They always knelt th e bus whether the 1:4 bus was deployed to theCART Services Provided by: Metro Reporters

US Access Board Public Information Meeting Unofficial Transcripts September 19, 2012 Page 62 Washington, DC ground or sidewalk. But with the 1:6 design, it's best that they don't kneel when they deploy to the sidewalk. Otherwise, you introduce that grade break. >> So can we basically get rid of the grade break problem just through operational policies?
>> Not entirely just because of the other items I mentioned, sidewalk height, road crown.
The next generation of that ramp that has the fixed slope, I had showed a couple of slides of that where we're taking a dvantage of the threshold transition that's allowable where you have the quarter inch and then up to a half inch 1:2. We're able to lower the apex at the top of the interior ramp by doing that and then also on the exterior end of the deployed ramp itself, we have put a bit of a bend in that so we have raised the top surface up and in so doing, we're able to get the apex of the transition moved outboard. For the Santa Clara and the Lane Transit installations, we could move the apex out four inches. Now, if the bus were to kneel to 11 inches, we can move it out another four inches for a total of eight inches. And in most cases we can also flatten that interior slope by about a degree and a half. So instead of it being a 1:6, it would be a 1:7.

>> Tha nk you.CART Services Provided by: Metro Reporters

US Access Board Public Information Meeting Unofficial Transcripts September 19, 2012 Page 63 Washington, DC

>> CHRISTOPHER HART: I want to add to that hypothetical question. Going back to the wheel wells...if there was a requirement to taper a wheel well so it was not 90
- degree angles, would that be harmful?
>> Kerry Leg with New Flier. With th e existing suspension components, I don't know if it's going to be possible. That front interior corner of the wheel well is where your radius rods are going to attach physically to the structure.

>> CHRISTOPHER HART: So I'm confused because I know some New Fliers with tapered wheel well corners. Is that just an interior design option?
>> Some of the older Fliers had some tapering on them because obviously we had some space in those. Some of the newer designs it may look tapered, but basically we're making the wheel wells as small as we can obviously so that we have got more room for seats and passengers in general plus the wheelchair corridor. And
--

>> CHRISTOPHER HART: Because one of the th ings that we have heard depending on the type of chair, as you make that turn into the passageway, you will catch your rear left wheel on that 90
- degree corner. If that was tapered slightly for you to adjust a little more wiggle room and you don't beat th at corner up.CART Services Provided by: Metro Reporters

US Access Board Public Information Meeting Unofficial Transcripts September 19, 2012 Page 64 Washington, DC >> One of the things, you know, again, you go with technology...one of the things we have done is our bus floor is designed in 3D solid works and the floor is composite and we were actually, by doing that, we were able to drape the wheel h ouses right over the suspension bits as close as possible. It's
-- you know, it again gets into a type of construction. If you have got
-- depending on the structure underneath, that could limit the amount of in our case we designed again being fresh she et, we were able to design it around and in fact our wheel houses are the same side to side. They're shifted over to the curb side so that you have two more inches to make that corner better. But all of that was only possible because we literally 3D drap ed the surfaces and CNC cut all of the floors to do that. >> But ultimately, though, isn't the size of the wheel house limited by the need for the bus to actually turn? I mean, you have got those big tires in there and they need the
-- I'm not sure I
u nderstand how we're trying to taper the wheel of the bus.

>> CHRISTOPHER HART: John, you...there's always going to be
-- where there's nothing in that space. And so you just cut off an inch or one
degree angle that says you get that back into the passa geway. >> I guess I'm wondering how big of a taper we're talking about. I mean, if it's just the interior surface, actually reducing the area of the wheel housed
--

>> CHRISTOPHER HART: How can we think about squeezing it intoCART Services Provided by: Metro Reporters

US Access Board Public Information Meeting Unofficial Transcripts September 19, 2012 Page 65 Washington, DC that vestibule passagewa y and how will it help the industry rethink their practices, what we see on
-- >> This is Kerry Leg with New Flier again. Chris, I mean, there is a couple of factors to think about here. First of all, you can't confuse the existing buses on the road wi th what we want them to be like and obviously there's some older designs out there that can't be modified simply because of their structures. In our current designs, we're trying to maximize the space in there as best we can to make the wheel wells smalle r, but there are other design considerations. You have got radius rods, air springs, shock absorbers, break canisters and all of the components for the wheel plus the room for the legal to turn and not make contact with the ground. Sorry, with the struct ure. And then you have got to make it last for 12 years, so it's got to go through the heavy duty cycle testing, so if you try and make the frame work in there smaller, which is the only thing we have control over, because we're buying set components from manufacturers like MAN for the axle or Gabriel shock absorbers and things like that, those things we can't really change. The only real change we can make is to the structure itself. The structure has to be able to survive, so we have tapered it down. We have made it as, you know, as small as we can. And so really the only thing we can look at or can affect is future design. And I know you've seen some unusual ones out there on the street, but once again, that's past components of things would proba bly be never be retrofittedCART Services Provided by: Metro Reporters

US Access Board Public Information Meeting Unofficial Transcripts September 19, 2012 Page 66 Washington, DC simply because there aren't the dollars to retrofit or not enough funds to change.
>> SCOTT WINDLEY: That's what we're talking about is new designs.

>> CHRISTOPHER HART: And also I want to add to the question...if given t he disparity between heavy
- duty buses in New York and D.C., buses in...should we be thinking a little differently? If you have got a 25
- passenger...should we be applying 40
-foot
-- >> I think there does need to be some difference in the regulations beca use you're talking about different restrictions. The pusher bus has no drive shaft. That's not limited. The other one was when you have the door between the wheel base you're always dealing around a drive shaft unless in the future you can go to electr ic, but that's a ways off and very expensive at this point. So I think that it does need to be looked at. Either the standards have to be broad enough and work for both and maybe that compromises too much to do that or we need to look into some areas th at need soft separate provisions in them. >> SCOTT WINDLEY: We do have separate provisions for smaller buses but we need to look at where they're all
-- >> Because I mean just in the loading for wheelchairs obviously when you have an over 30,000 pound bus, your loading to wheelchairs anchors are much lessCART Services Provided by: Metro Reporters

US Access Board Public Information Meeting Unofficial Transcripts September 19, 2012 Page 67 Washington, DC because the bus becomes a ramp. Whereas if you had a lighter bus, it's different. You have higher load requirements.

>> SCOTT WINDLEY: Okay. Well
-- >> Well, Chris, I would agree that there are probably some areas of the regulations that could be modified specifically for vehicles over a certain weight classification. Obviously, the cut
- aways have some design advantages that they can take into account that we can't do in a heavy
- duty application. So I agree that potentially there are, but we'd have to look at them, you know, in case by case and find out which are unobtainable in a heavy
- duty application or which are nonapplicable to say cut - away application. But, yeah. I think there might be some way of classifying the regulations to apply to different vehicle types and sizes. >> The one thing we're running into in realization of that in o ur new product, that new bus, Pusher bus that I showed the pictures of, one thing that's very different about it is it's 12,000 pounds lighter than a standard 30, 35
-foot bus. It weighs 12,000 pound s less and there was a lot of d eficiencies because of tha t and everything was optimized. But we're a betweener, let's call it. We're not 30,000 pounds, but we're configured like a 40
-footer and we're not
-- you know, and we're not the configuration of a cut
- away. So we have had issues in finding components th at work for us, but it also becomes in which regulations do we fallCART Services Provided by: Metro Reporters

US Access Board Public Information Meeting Unofficial Transcripts September 19, 2012 Page 68 Washington, DC under because under configuration bases, we look like a 40
-footer. I mean, our 33
-foot bus has
-- yet, that bus weighs 16,000 pounds and a 40
-footer would be 30,000 pounds. So those are the things that we're learning and as technology goes, those are things that you always run across. When you cross those barriers and create new things, you discover things that work, but rules that don't quite fit anymore and it's the application point. So I think, you know, obviously light weight is going to be a factor in the future. I know we're not the only ones working on those, right, Kerry?
(Laughter) >> And we'll be seeing more of that, but they do fall in between.

>> This is Melissa from the Access Board. So what seems to be more practical, dividing the classifications between weight or length of the vehicle? Right now we have it divided by length, but what's more of an industry standard?
>> Well, if you look at the
-- call it the cut- away style or buses that are built on cab chassis, there is a bus out there called the Passport which Eldorado builds. It's built on an international medium
- duty chassis. But it has the characteristics of our cut
- away base product and that is the fro nt engine rear wheel drive andCART Services Provided by: Metro Reporters

US Access Board Public Information Meeting Unofficial Transcripts September 19, 2012 Page 69 Washington, DC therefore has the same opportunities, same limitations. So again, it's difficult to take one qualification of length and fit them or one qualification of weight and fit them. I don't have the answer, but, you know, it's g ood that we're thinking that way.

>> CHRISTOPHER HART: I hear you
-- >> I think that this is
-- this is Steve Asztalos with Dallas Smith. I think that Jim's comment about the front engine cab chassis versus the rear engine Pusher is probably the divi der no matter
-- because whether you build a 30
-foot reengine Pusher or 40
-foot, you have the same advantages and constraints that they have to work around and we have the same thing in a chassis cab whether it's an E350 Con Line or an international bus ch assis, that's a chassis cab. We have the drive shaft and exhaust which is an issue on those which is not on the Pusher. They have the front wheel box and things like that that's in their way. I think the vehicle
-- that particular layout is the
-- shou ld be the configuration that the vehicle overall not their weight.

>> CHRISTOPHER HART: And that was what I was hoping that folks would begin to discuss because I think as we go to more electric motors
-- completely change how we do...it's going to open up a lot of opportunities to rethink the vehicle layout and
-- >> And I think as long as
-- Jim Bartel...as long as the regulations or standards are put together so you don't restrict what's done to improve beyond it, that's theCART Services Provided by: Metro Reporters

US Access Board Public Information Meeting Unofficial Transcripts September 19, 2012 Page 70 Washington, DC important thing because w hat we don't want to do is create standards that are built around the drive shaft in the middle of the vehicle assuming it's always going to be there and that if you do it in the future five years or 10 years down the road, do all wheel motors and have no drive shaft, that prohibits the manufacturer from improving the vehicle because of the standard.
>> WMATA, I got a question. Is there a chassis determined by the heavy duty, medium duty, light duty, this type of description, the chassis ?

>> The cut
- away is obviously built on a General Motors chassis. The new bus we're building the chassis ourselves because after talking to every chassis manufacturer in the country and even getting the deer and the headlight look or we'll go back to Germany and see i f in three to five years we can put it in the schedule, we built our own. (Laughter) >> Normally buses are heavy duty buses, those are 12
-year tested buses and most of the transit property keep the buses 15, 16, 17 years because that
reason. And those are average weight about, starting from about 38, 39, it can go up to 45, 46, 48,000 pounds. So those are significant difference from the let's say cut
away bus. So weight is the main factor. Not the hardest sitting capacity.
>> Exactly. Our new bus that I indicated has a curb way of 16,000 has a GBW ofCART Services Provided by: Metro Reporters

US Access Board Public Information Meeting Unofficial Transcripts September 19, 2012 Page 71 Washington, DC 2055. There's some benefits to that. It's fuel economy. It's hydraulic brakes. A bunch of things that make it friendlier and easier to find operators for. There are a lot of buses but there are a lot of trade
- offs. >> From a DOT standpoint, does this conversation give you heartburn?

>> Not as such. You know, the things going through my head right now are the different ways that buses are classified for purposes of say the national transit database and things like that and I don't know, you know, if there are any, you know, NITSA
-type t hings that come up in terms of safety regulations or not. That's not my end of things. I'm sure the further we get into this discussion, you know, the areas of heartburn will become apparent. (Laughter) >> Okay. Thanks. >> This is Kerry Leg with N ew Flier. The DOT classifies buses by weight and by type. So either you're over 10,000 pounds or you're a school bus, you know. (Laughter) >> Is that the classification?
>> Pretty much. >> I've had many ways trying to fig you out which regulation s actually apply to a heavy
- duty transit bus because we're not school buses by definition.CART Services Provided by: Metro Reporters

US Access Board Public Information Meeting Unofficial Transcripts September 19, 2012 Page 72 Washington, DC But we do or have to follow the spirit of the regulation for a lot of things that are created for school bus. We are over 10,000 pounds, so a lot of the regulatio ns are basically written for vehicles under 10,000. And so do they apply or do we just incorporate them because if we don't, we'll get sued. But, yeah, the classification and rating system for buses is not hard set with the DOT and NITSA. >> That's for NITSA?
>> Well, they don't necessarily specify between a highway coach or a city coach. But, yeah, a lot of times people seem to be under the impression that city coaches never go over 45 miles an hour.

>> CHRISTOPHER HART: Every day in Boston.
>> Yes, they do. That's another one of my nightmares. But I won't get into that. So, no, there isn't a set classification system currently established with the U.S. government, I'll put it that way.

>> CHRISTOPHER HART: How much space can we get at the top of the ramp and the fare box if there is no integral design process
-- >> This is Kerry Leg with New Flier again. The fare boxes as they are today are pretty much as high as they can possibly be without interfering with the driver'sCART Services Provided by: Metro Reporters

US Access Board Public Information Meeting Unofficial Transcripts September 19, 2012 Page 73 Washington, DC line of si ght.

>> CHRISTOPHER HART: Right. I don't make any suggestions to raising the fare box. We just wanted to...and we need to understand if that was possible. If the bus design was an integral process, would the
-- and the fare box all in the same...and you had your seat manufacturer and your driver control dash manufacturer all in the same roo m, what could be achieved in terms of rethinking that whole entry barrier?
>> Well, obviously, I mean, they would need to re
- evaluate the storage space that they have in there because fare boxes have these big empty canisters to collect coins. Whether those storage spaces are of proper design, location, what have you, if they can be relocated, repositioned, made smaller, the mounting provisions for it, now, they would have to try and mount it off of the side wall of the passageway as opposed to a floor mount. And, you know, unless we do actually get those fare box manufacturers into the same room and, you know, keep a good distance between them and let them try and discuss what it is they want to do, I mean, we couldn't incorporate or design and build a bus with an integral fare box because a lot of our customers wouldn't accept that.

>> CHRISTOPHER HART: I think we all get that. But what I'm trying to understand, how do we change
-- does the board need to help further the dialogue between all the ma nufacturers or technical assistance?CART Services Provided by: Metro Reporters

US Access Board Public Information Meeting Unofficial Transcripts September 19, 2012 Page 74 Washington, DC How can we help?
>> Well, you got the meeting coming up in Seattle. I suggest that you put the invitations out there and ask them to attend, you know.

>> SCOTT WINDLEY: Get them in the same room. You're telli ng me you got to have some distance between them. >> Either that or give them some Nerf bats.

>> SCOTT WINDLEY: You don't want to have October 2nd turn into a Jerry Springer Show.

>> CHRISTOPHER HART: I think do you have an understanding of what th at design process could be. >> I have a basic philosophy. If you're going to make an omelet, you got to break some eggs.
>> I think potentially, Melissa, if these manufacturers were put into the same room and told, okay, guess what, you know, in thre e years time, this is the space you're going to be allowed to put your fare box in and see how they react to that.
>> I raised three kids. I can put them in the same room.CART Services Provided by: Metro Reporters

US Access Board Public Information Meeting Unofficial Transcripts September 19, 2012 Page 75 Washington, DC

>> MARSHA MAZZ: Chris, earlier there was some discussion about flatness and how we measure flatness and I think there was some discussion I think during the break about warped floors, et cetera. And I would like to focus the discussion on those issues for myself to have at least a better understanding of exactly what the state of the art is and what the concerns are. In general, we consider anything that's sloped 2% in all directions as flat. Also there was some discussions
-- >> It's 2% and not 2 degrees, right?

>> MARSHA MAZZ: Percent. And also there was some discussi on about a threshold, which sounded to me like it was at the top of the ramp. Typically in buildings, we have a level landing before a threshold. We don't have a threshold at the top of a ramp. So I wanted to understand those two issues a little better if I can.

>> SCOTT WINDLEY: Thank you, Marsha. So let's do the level floor issue first
-- or the floor issue. So who wants to start the discussion
--

>> CHRISTOPHER HART: Who wants to dive in?

>> JIM BARTEL: You know, that decision or how it's defined is integral to what we're doing, what we have been doing and to continue success to the customer in the future because we are warping surfaces. All of our entrances are warpedCART Services Provided by: Metro Reporters

US Access Board Public Information Meeting Unofficial Transcripts September 19, 2012 Page 76 Washington, DC and they're warped for a reason. A nd that is to create the most gentle transition we can and to assure that in all cases under normal flow of the chair that all four wheels are able to contact. In doing that, I think we have made the product better for a better customer base, more usable. I think your success in the marketplace test to that where 90% of the volume and everybody is trying to copy us. But what we don't want to do is create standards that cause it to back off. Not that it wouldn't be
-- it would be easy for us to back dow n from where we are. But the product, if the product becomes less user friendly, then that's the wrong thing to do. I'm not saying we have all the answers. I'm saying
-- and that's why I made an offer to the board to if they would like to send represent atives to our facility because we have products that cover the broadest ranges and they're all in cad that we would be glad to share that and have those discussions and help define those because, you know, maybe what we're assuming, maybe some of the things we're assuming are a little too far out. Maybe they're not. But, you know, like I say, we have
-- with 1,000 units out there and services as far as the ramp to transition into the buses, as far as we know, I have had zero complaints from anybody, which is we're
-- we're very happy with. I mean, we're happy with everybody.

>> MARSHA MAZZ: A follow
- up if I may, Marsha Mazz, U.S. Access Board. I'm having time visualizing how a warp in a particular area where you may be turning serves to keep all four wheels plainer, if you will.CART Services Provided by: Metro Reporters

US Access Board Public Information Meeting Unofficial Transcripts September 19, 2012 Page 77 Washington, DC >> JIM BARTEL: That's why we have to show you the data. I mean, basically what it is if you take
-- it's when we're talking earlier where you would have
-- when we showed the early ones, the heavy buses with the ramp that goes down, comes up and a bus and a chair was trying to make the corner, you ob viously got a ledge or something there. If you look at it if in especially in the application where in the cut
- away style where it is desirable to start the turn as soon as you can which means you're partly on the ramp yet. As you make this turn, if yo u have a flat plain where you come up and bend, as you go at any angle but straight on, one wheel is off. One wheel is off. However, if you very carefully warp those surfaces, yes, we do assume there is a slight amount of flex in the chair. If it's a p erfectly rigid chair with perfectly rigid wheels and tires on it, yes, theoretically you can't do it. But there is some flex in those. Not a lot. But there is a little bit.

>> SCOTT WINDLEY: From what I understand, Jim, the way you design your floors, is there's really not any place that's actually flat dead level. >> In the transition, correct. Absolutely not.

>> MARSHA MAZZ: I think I got a picture of it now.
>> CHRISTOPHER HART: I realize now I was on your vehicle a yearCART Services Provided by: Metro Reporters

US Access Board Public Information Meeting Unofficial Transcripts September 19, 2012 Page 78 Washington, DC ago. I don't recall
-- it was really an aha moment.

>> MARSHA MAZZ: If I can, one more follow
- up question. Marsha Mazz. Does this work equally well for all types of wheelchairs? I mean, every wheelchair has a different wheel base obviously. But scooters in part icular, does it work equally well for scooters and say manual chairs and power chairs?

>> JIM BARTEL: Well, we're still doing studies
-- I mean, there is a broad range and
-- >> MARSHA MAZZ: Particularly the 3
-wheel scooters. >> Right. Three wheels are not a problem because three points always create a plain wherever you put them. It's the four wheels that are
-- you have to watch more closer, much more closely in doing this. And like I say we have spent a lot of time and a lot of effort doing thi s, and we have done it to make it the most friendly and usable for the people who need it, and like I say again, I'm not saying that we have all the answers, but I want to make sure that what we come up with as a final regulation or a standard is usable fo r the end customer, most usable possible and is the most flexible so it doesn't say, okay, only your ramp works or only my bus works or only his, you know
--

>> SCOTT WINDLEY: We would never try to write something like that.
>> JIM BARTEL: You don't kn owingly do that, but
-- so, yeah, so that's why I thinkCART Services Provided by: Metro Reporters

US Access Board Public Information Meeting Unofficial Transcripts September 19, 2012 Page 79 Washington, DC to fully understand it and the work we have done and get other people's, especially the board's insight to it, that's why I'm recommending a visit to our facility where we would be willing to share th is and look at all of our products and the cad data on how we have come up with this.

>> CHRISTOPHER HART: Is if you had a very short wheel base wheelchair like John and it was a completely rigid frame, you might...very, very short time. If you happen to hit it at the right angle. But it's a larger, more typical
-- I can't conceive of a scooter tire. It's high enough. You know, I don't
-- I would be very intrigued to actually look at it in detail and see your cad pieces and we could
-- as someone who has dealt with chairs in the last nine years...and whenever you lose that traction, as you make that trek going down the rail, it's scary. Likewise when you take that lift going up and you don't have enough to get over that lift, that's a challenge. And that's why we want to eventually get all information to get this right.

>> SCOTT WINDLEY: Jim, just a question...are most of your customers more paratransit
-type application or do you have mass transit? Because somebody might be more independently
-- >> JIM BARTEL: We have got 100 buses in Calgary that are run all road service. Hamilton, Ontario. Lubuk runs a paratransit. We have got a broad range, but I would say more than 50% of them run route servi ce.

>> SCOTT WINDLEY: Okay. Thanks.CART Services Provided by: Metro Reporters

US Access Board Public Information Meeting Unofficial Transcripts September 19, 2012 Page 80 Washington, DC >> JIM BARTEL: So we have got a very broad range and a very broad customer base. >> MARSHA MAZZ: It's cheaper as possible because of the materials that you're using, does that make it
-- >> JIM BARTEL: I mean, all entrance, our entrance
-- the transition between our ramp and the main floor a molded composite structure. In our new bus, the entire floor is composite. But the entrance is a molded composite, all C&C cut so that it's very accurate. I mean, the la test one -- the toughest one to do has been the latest one which has no kneeling and that's really to get
-- what we found out is that getting through a low
-floor bus on a cut
- away brought the product price down to around $100,000. But you have assisted l iving facilities and private operators who do not get any FTA assistance and contractors who could still not warrant the extra price. So this last product was done to address that. We do not see this freedom product ever going in most route service except the first customer and that's always Calgary who brought 100 of them. (Laughter) >> SCOTT WINDLEY: One reason I ask that question is because it
-- you know, from my experience with
-- I don't use paratransit, but most paratransit, they're more willin g to assist the person getting in and out and so that wouldn't give us a real feel of how these surfaces actually work because when it's mass transit, you know, you're more on your own to get in and out.
>> JIM BARTEL: It's interesting because it varies a lot in Canada.CART Services Provided by: Metro Reporters

US Access Board Public Information Meeting Unofficial Transcripts September 19, 2012 Page 81 Washington, DC In fact, the ones we have in BC transit, they only put one wheelchair position in. ADA would require two besides the bus. And the individual has to get on the bus and has to tie themselves down, secure themselves on period or they do n't take them. I mean, it's bizarre. But that's what it is. That's the way they operate. So we have got a wide variety and the main thing that has drawn them to it is the accessibility obviously and the
-- I mean, I refer to our buses once you have
en tered the bus, turn the corner and start walking down the aisle, we're just another bus. The whole deal is the entrance.

>> SCOTT WINDLEY: Yeah. Great. Oh, yeah, can we talk about the threshold that you were talking about, Cleatus? Was that at the top of the ramp that you're doing the threshold?
>> Yes. Cleatus here. Is it possible to load up a couple of slides? Yes. That's the correct one. Before we get into the transition, Marsha had mentioned, you know, the vestibule slop es, and indicated you consider 2% being flat. There is a dozen different bus models here. I didn't name them by name, but their vestibule incline angle varies from C 1 and 0, but most of them are from 1 to 2.5 degrees. There's one at 3.7 and there is a nother one that's at 3 degrees, and that's just the natural slope in their vestibule.CART Services Provided by: Metro Reporters

US Access Board Public Information Meeting Unofficial Transcripts September 19, 2012 Page 82 Washington, DC Next slide.
This is a plan view of the 1:6 ramp. It's installed into front vestibule of the bus here and you can see the dimension to the right that's in the flat surface of the ramp. There is a dimension there of 20.8. That's our generation 2 that's currently installed at Santa Clara and Lane Transit. And you can see between the transition apex and the fare box is 20.8 inches. The transition that I'm going to try to highlight in just a moment is on the generation 3 version and you can see that the flight area has improved by 4 inches. The apex transition has moved toward the door 4 inches. Request request. And then for ramps that can kneel to 11 inches
-- excuse me. Buses that can kneel to 11 inches, we're able to move that apex out another 4 inches. And so as you get farther away from the aisle, it's going to increase the flat floor area to help keep as many of the ways on a level surface as possible making that turn. And once again, if the pedestal is downsized, then there would be more space to make that turn. Now, let's go to the next slide. The picture in the lower left, I had referred to this ea rlier when Melissa asked a question. The outward tip of the deployed ramp has got a bend to it now so that it
-- and it complies with the transition rule. And then the picture to the rightCART Services Provided by: Metro Reporters

US Access Board Public Information Meeting Unofficial Transcripts September 19, 2012 Page 83 Washington, DC and it may be an illusion here, but the apex up near the yellow stripe on the ramp is just slightly below the flange. The trim that bridges to the floor adjacent in the bus is there to the left a little bit. And that transition is beveled to the one on 2. And that apex is moved down about a half inch, but it's only at that apex as the floor moves inboard, it diminishes. And so it's flush with the floor on the inboard end. And what this has been able to do is get the transition apex moved outboard. So you can see in the picture in the upper left corner, you can se e how the transition is tapered.

>> SCOTT WINDLEY: So you have a
-- so you actually have a curb all the way along this edge, right, too, because when you go to the top of the yellow, this
-- you get up there, is that half inch beveled as well up there at the top?

>> Yes. >> SCOTT WINDLEY: You're starting to turn into the bus?

>> CLEATUS LEWIS: Right. At the top of the apex of the ramp itself to the lower portion of the 1:2 is only a quarter inch vertical rise. And then the remaining quarter i nch vertical rise to the top of the floor is beveled at the 1:2.CART Services Provided by: Metro Reporters

US Access Board Public Information Meeting Unofficial Transcripts September 19, 2012 Page 84 Washington, DC Yeah, if you want to go ahead and advance to the next slide...this is, you know, a cross sectional view of that ramp that we were just looking at the photographs of. And you can see how t he apex on the interior portion of the ramp is now only 20.8 inches from the step edge. Whereas what Lane Transit and Santa Clara was doing, it was at 28 inches. It's approaching 29 inches.
>> Is that enough with the passenger
-- to pay the fare and come up there and stay pretty much?

>> CLEATUS LEWIS: Since the interior slope is flattened just a bit also, it helps. If you go back to
-- yeah, go one more slide back. >> That is 20.8. Your flat surface and up. Is that 20.8 room enough for it? Will I pay the fare on the fare box?

>> CLEATUS LEWIS: What's happening and it was expressed in some of the letters from Santa Clara and Lane Transit was some wheelchair passengers, particularly manual wheelchairs where they
-- if they don't lock their brakes and they stop to pay the fare, they
-- >> That is my point. So if forget to lock the wheelchair, I mean, in terms like that.CART Services Provided by: Metro Reporters

US Access Board Public Information Meeting Unofficial Transcripts September 19, 2012 Page 85 Washington, DC >> Yes. >> That could be a safety hazard if you think about it.
>> CLEATUS LEWIS: Right. If that area can be lengthened like is illustrated there to the 28 inches, and then if the fare box pedestal could be downsizeed a bit, that would help tremendously. You can see the dimensions at the bottom from the step edge to the fare box is 49 .5. And from the fare box to the driver's platform it's almost 15 inches. I don't have everyone's measurements, but of about four bus manufacturers, the dimension from the step edge to the pedestal varies from 46 inches to 50 inches. And the dimension from the face of that fare box pedestal to the driver's platform varies anywhere from 10 inches to 19 inches. >> Right. >> So if the fare box pedestal could be downsizeed, you're going to have some improvement on the clear floor space. >> That is the key to our fare box, the base is almost about 18.2 inches. It's a huge base with the fare box inside which is from underneath. So that 14.8 inches, my fare box will not fit in there.

>> CHRISTOPHER HART: Does your fare box keep the driver
-- >> The fare box we have, those are tank. Those are fare box empty are 92 pound weight. So that's monster fare box. If I come in there with a wheelchair passenger, if we have this 20.8 inches onCART Services Provided by: Metro Reporters

US Access Board Public Information Meeting Unofficial Transcripts September 19, 2012 Page 86 Washington, DC there and I'm going to slide back out.

>> SCOTT WINDLEY: Brings us back to why your fare Boxs have to be so big. >> CHRISTOPHER HART: It also brings us back to the...taper on that wheel of why that taper is so critical that you cannot get that fare box out of the way, then something's got to give elsewhere.
>> The buses we have just now from New Flier, our fare box base, just little bit over the edge, a little bit on the base. But the fare box sits inside of the base. The base is little wider.

>> SCOTT WINDLEY: I think what Chris's po int is on that bevel on the wheel well is that, you know, when you're having to turn and my wife can tell you from every corner in our house that a 90
- degree corner is going to get torn up more than a beveled corner is. So just because of the way things a re. So... because you can kind of rub against the beveled corner more and actually keep going and not get your wheel actually caught. So...

>> MARSHA MAZZ: Well, Scott, if you taper the corner, you essentially change the turning and that really will m ake a difference. In fact, ANSI A 107 standard is looking at whether you turn for that corner.

>> SCOTT WINDLEY: Right. So, Marsha, did that answer your question on the
--CART Services Provided by: Metro Reporters

US Access Board Public Information Meeting Unofficial Transcripts September 19, 2012 Page 87 Washington, DC

>> MARSHA MAZZ: It did. It did.
>> SCOTT WINDLEY: Is there any other is sues that we would like to discuss? Melissa, did you have something. >> I guess between the bus manufacturers and the ramp manufacturers, what kind of testing do you use for visibility and it sounds like you might have some analysis and if you have it, we would like to have it. But do you test these products on people before you put them out?

>> Way back when we started the first bus project, we built a Buck, wooden Buck and we actually did it add one of the Auto manufacturers, arranged a 2
- day session and we had 65 people. Each one with different mobility issues go through the Buck and the Buck was built on jacks that could be angled and it was movable and flexible. So we moved the Buck around. We changed angles. We did various things. We had everything from people in walkers to people on, you know, full mechanical power chairs and everythin g in between. Not that I would call it, you know, I can't say it was statistical andized and totally accurate, but it was the best we could do and the broadest range of people we could put through it. And that set kind of the standards for what we saw we re usable angles and usable transitions in that. I looked in from the beginning and saw that the 1:4 slope was really notCART Services Provided by: Metro Reporters

US Access Board Public Information Meeting Unofficial Transcripts September 19, 2012 Page 88 Washington, DC acceptable. We pushed beyond that right away. We built our first couple of buses with a 1:4 because that's the only hardware ramp s we could get. We actually never, ever sold one. I think there may be one bus out there that has it in, a demo bus. But these were the type of things we did as before we put anything into the field. We worked with the ramp manufacturers, brought in th e ramps and we went through trials of deploys and other things like that to make sure they were compatible. Like I said, in the ramp stage of bifold ramps we have been pretty much the company pushing the envelope there and both brawn and Ricon were both national companies responded and supported us through those going from 600 to 800 into 1,000 pound weights from 30, to 32, to 34 inch widths and from 40 and 62 lengths of ramps and also we also have good association with Q
- strength who is their strength device manufacturers that pretty much dominates the market here in the U.S. and they have been partners of ours. So in all of these cases, we tend to go through push it to the limit and build a demonstration bus and then review that at our dealer's meetings and some other field service work before we ever go forward with it. So we are careful to make sure we're not pushing limits beyond
-- with all of the things we're doing, we think we are doing things that are better than the standards, not intruding into the standards. That is at least our interpretation. Maybe some of our interpretations are different than other people thinks are accurate. But as we interpret them, we're always trying to improve upon things versus trying to back off of anything.CART Services Provided by: Metro Reporters

US Access Board Public Information Meeting Unofficial Transcripts September 19, 2012 Page 89 Washington, DC And so we can provide some of that information. I guess the question is, this information is proprietary. I won't supply it to be published for obvious reasons. >> And that's fine. Don't send it to us. >> We won't be sending it. >> That's fine. We respect that.

>> SCOTT WINDLEY: But whatever you feel you can send us, that would be great.

>> MARSHA MAZZ: Just to make it clear, anything that results from the public comment period would be put in the docket.

>> SCOTT WINDLEY: So only send some thing that you feel comfortable with anybody and their dog looking at it. (Laughter) >> SCOTT WINDLEY: Cleatus or New Flier
-- Kerry?

>> KERRY LEGG: With regard to new ramp design, we do at our research and development department, they put the bus
-- or sorry. The ramp itself through multicycle testing. Put it through 30,000 cycles and see how it stands up and tweak that and try again. Because it not only has to do what they project it to do, but it also has to be maintained well and all sorts of things. With regards to usage, we have got the demo buses running around and typically if there is an ADA advocacy group in that area, then, you know, they'll be invited to come andCART Services Provided by: Metro Reporters

US Access Board Public Information Meeting Unofficial Transcripts September 19, 2012 Page 90 Washington, DC try it out and that's a good user test for us to tell us whether or not i t's better than they have had before. There's also some very embarrassing footage of me trying to work a wheelchair up a ramp. (Laughter) >> I'm not going to be releasing that either.
(Laughter) >> But, you know, we do play it with a lot, both at our research development and customer service if I'm hearing about issues in the field, then I'll go out and test it myself as embarrassing as it may be sometimes, but
-- yeah.

>> SCOTT WINDLEY: Cleatus?

>> Cleatus with Lift
- U. As far as user testi ng, our prototypes, our initial units are installed in demo buses and evaluated. But as far as focus groups or something of that sort where we have gone out and tried to solicit a variety of different types of users to evaluate, no, we haven't done that. That's why on this new dual
- mode ramp we have specifically started work with Lain Transit and Santa Clara to get these prototypes and beta testing before we even go to production.CART Services Provided by: Metro Reporters

US Access Board Public Information Meeting Unofficial Transcripts September 19, 2012 Page 91 Washington, DC

>> SCOTT WINDLEY: Great. Okay. Chris, you want to close us out? Is there any other questions that anybody had that didn't get addressed?

>> CHRISTOPHER HART: I think this was a very worthwhile discussion. Certainly looking forward to continue dialogue on October 2nd at 2:00 or 2:30 in the afternoon. 2:00 to 5:30 and the room will be down the street. I don't have that
-- >> SCOTT WINDLEY: We do. >> 611 and 612.

>> SCOTT WINDLEY: Of the Washington Convention Center, right?

>> Yes. >> SCOTT WINDLEY: It's on the 6th floor.

>> CHRISTOPHER HART: We are asking all the manufacturers that, including fare box manufacturers because we really want to continue this dialogue and this information
-gathering effort to better refine the draft guidelines and hopefully finalize them very quickly.

>> SCOTT WINDLEY: Thanks a lot. We really appreciate you guys coming and sharing with us and having an open dialogue. It's always good to do that. I appreciate you guy's presentations, all of the information you have givenCART Services Provided by: Metro Reporters

US Access Board Public Information Meeting Unofficial Transcripts September 19, 2012 Page 92 Washington, DC us. Given a lot to think about. So thank you. >> For anyone who wants more information about the meeting and a copy of the federal register notice, if you haven't actually seen it, if you go to our website and look at the top link for vehicle guidelines, there is an article and a link to the federal register notice and to the comment web page and on the right
- hand side there is the information for the meeting in Seattle.
>> And Melissa, when does the time period close?
>> The time period closes October 31st. Yep. Halloween. So don't send u s anything scary.

>> SCOTT WINDLEY: Or all the buses turn into a pumpkin on Halloween. >> I have got a question. I unfortunately on that date is committed to be on the farthest place of the United States probably Key West and I can't make that. Is t here any way of audioing in on the conversation?
>> No. There won't be. But the transcript will be posted.

>> SCOTT WINDLEY: We try.CART Services Provided by: Metro Reporters

US Access Board Public Information Meeting Unofficial Transcripts September 19, 2012 Page 93 Washington, DC >> When is the information
-- taking of the information, is that October 31st?

>> SCOTT WINDLEY: The comment period is open
-- the comments
-- the docket is open except the comments until October 31st. Sorry. I was trying to get my federal language correct.
>> And if anyone has specific context at the fare box manufacturers or re tail, let me know. Otherwise, I'm going to be fishing for them based on what I find on the internet. So if somebody has name, that would help me out.