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44–911 PDF 2008

CENSUS DATA: SPECIAL ISSUES RELATED TO U.S.

TERRITORIES

JOINT HEARING

BEFORE THE

SUBCOMMITTEE ON INFORMATION POLICY,

CENSUS, AND NATIONAL ARCHIVES

OF THE

COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT

AND GOVERNMENT REFORM

AND THE

SUBCOMMITTEE ON INSULAR AFFAIRS

OF THE

COMMITTEE ON NATURAL RESOURCES

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

ONE HUNDRED TENTH CONGRESS

SECOND SESSION

MAY 21, 2008

Serial No. 110–84

Committee on Oversight and Government Reform

Serial No. 110–73

Committee on Natural Resources

Printed for the use of the Committees on Oversight and Government Reform

and Natural Resources

(

Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.gpoaccess.gov/congress/index.html

http://www.house.gov/reform

(II)

COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM

HENRY A. WAXMAN, California, Chairman

EDOLPHUS TOWNS, New York

PAUL E. KANJORSKI, Pennsylvania

CAROLYN B. MALONEY, New York

ELIJAH E. CUMMINGS, Maryland

DENNIS J. KUCINICH, Ohio

DANNY K. DAVIS, Illinois

JOHN F. TIERNEY, Massachusetts

WM. LACY CLAY, Missouri

DIANE E. WATSON, California

STEPHEN F. LYNCH, Massachusetts

BRIAN HIGGINS, New York

JOHN A. YARMUTH, Kentucky

BRUCE L. BRALEY, Iowa

ELEANOR HOLMES NORTON, District of

Columbia

BETTY MCCOLLUM, Minnesota

JIM COOPER, Tennessee

CHRIS VAN HOLLEN, Maryland

PAUL W. HODES, New Hampshire

CHRISTOPHER S. MURPHY, Connecticut

JOHN P. SARBANES, Maryland

PETER WELCH, Vermont

TOM DAVIS, Virginia

DAN BURTON, Indiana

CHRISTOPHER SHAYS, Connecticut

JOHN M. MCHUGH, New York

JOHN L. MICA, Florida

MARK E. SOUDER, Indiana

TODD RUSSELL PLATTS, Pennsylvania

CHRIS CANNON, Utah

JOHN J. DUNCAN, JR., Tennessee

MICHAEL R. TURNER, Ohio

DARRELL E. ISSA, California

KENNY MARCHANT, Texas

LYNN A. WESTMORELAND, Georgia

PATRICK T. MCHENRY, North Carolina

VIRGINIA FOXX, North Carolina

BRIAN P. BILBRAY, California

BILL SALI, Idaho

JIM JORDAN, Ohio

PHIL SCHILIRO, Chief of Staff

PHIL BARNETT, Staff Director

EARLEY GREEN, Chief Clerk

LAWRENCE HALLORAN, Minority Staff Director

SUBCOMMITTEE ON INFORMATION POLICY, CENSUS, AND NATIONAL ARCHIVES

WM. LACY CLAY, Missouri, Chairman

PAUL E. KANJORSKI, Pennsylvania

CAROLYN B. MALONEY, New York

JOHN A. YARMUTH, Kentucky

PAUL W. HODES, New Hampshire

MICHAEL R. TURNER, Ohio

CHRIS CANNON, Utah

BILL SALI, Idaho

TONY HAYWOOD, Staff Director

(III)

COMMITTEE ON NATURAL RESOURCES

NICK J. RAHALL, II, West Virginia, Chairman

DON YOUNG, Alaska, Ranking Republican Member

Dale E. Kildee, Michigan

Eni F.H. Faleomavaega, American Samoa

Neil Abercrombie, Hawaii

Solomon P. Ortiz, Texas

Frank Pallone, Jr., New Jersey

Donna M. Christensen, Virgin Islands

Grace F. Napolitano, California

Rush D. Holt, New Jersey

Rau ́l M. Grijalva, Arizona

Madeleine Z. Bordallo, Guam

Jim Costa, California

Dan Boren, Oklahoma

John P. Sarbanes, Maryland

George Miller, California

Edward J. Markey, Massachusetts

Peter A. DeFazio, Oregon

Maurice D. Hinchey, New York

Patrick J. Kennedy, Rhode Island

Ron Kind, Wisconsin

Lois Capps, California

Jay Inslee, Washington

Mark Udall, Colorado

Joe Baca, California

Hilda L. Solis, California

Stephanie Herseth Sandlin, South Dakota

Heath Shuler, North Carolina

Jim Saxton, New Jersey

Elton Gallegly, California

John J. Duncan, Jr., Tennessee

Wayne T. Gilchrest, Maryland

Chris Cannon, Utah

Thomas G. Tancredo, Colorado

Jeff Flake, Arizona

Stevan Pearce, New Mexico

Henry E. Brown, Jr., South Carolina

Luis G. Fortun ̃ o, Puerto Rico

Cathy McMorris Rodgers, Washington

Louie Gohmert, Texas

Tom Cole, Oklahoma

Rob Bishop, Utah

Bill Shuster, Pennsylvania

Bill Sali, Idaho

Doug Lamborn, Colorado

Mary Fallin, Oklahoma

Adrian Smith, Nebraska

Robert J. Wittman, Virginia

Steve Scalise, Louisiana

James H. Zoia, Chief of Staff

Rick Healy, Chief Counsel

Christopher N. Fluhr, Republican Staff Director

Lisa Pittman, Republican Chief Counsel

SUBCOMMITTEE ON INSULAR AFFAIRS

DONNA M. CHRISTENSEN, Virgin Islands, Chairwoman

LUIS G. FORTUN ̃ O, Puerto Rico, Ranking Republican Member

Eni F.H. Faleomavaega, American Samoa

Rau ́l M. Grijalva, Arizona

Madeleine Z. Bordallo, Guam

Nick J. Rahall, II, West Virginia, ex officio

Elton Gallegly, California

Jeff Flake, Arizona

Don Young, Alaska, ex officio

(V)

C O N T E N T S

Page

Hearing held on May 21, 2008 ............................................................................... 1

Statement of:

Mesenbourg, Thomas, Acting Deputy Director, U.S. Bureau of the Census; and Nikalao Pula, Director, Office of Insular Affairs, U.S. Department of the Interior ...................................................................................... 70

Mesenbourg, Thomas ................................................................................ 70

Pula, Nikalao ............................................................................................. 76

Mills, Frank L., Ph.D., director, Eastern Caribbean Center, University

of the Virgin Islands; and Francisco Cimadevilla, vice president and

editor in chief, Casiana Communications, Inc. ........................................... 37

Cimadevilla, Francisco .............................................................................. 50

Mills, Frank L. ........................................................................................... 37

Letters, statements, etc., submitted for the record by:

Bordallo, Hon. Madeleine A., a Delegate in Congress from Guam, prepared statement of ........................................................................................ 35

Christensen, Hon. Donna M., a Delegate in Congress from the Virgin

Islands:

Prepared statement of ............................................................................... 18

Prepared statement of Mr. Tulafono ....................................................... 9

Cimadevilla, Francisco, vice president and editor in chief, Casiana Communications, Inc., prepared statement of ................................................... 53

Clay, Hon. Wm. Lacy, a Representative in Congress from the State of

Missouri, prepared statement of .................................................................. 3

Faleomavaega, Hon. Eni F.H., a Delegate in Congress from American

Somoa, prepared statement of ..................................................................... 30

Fortun ̃ o, Hon. Luis G., a Resident Commissioner in Congress from Puerto

Rico:

Letter dated May 21, 2008 ....................................................................... 22

Letter dated May 21, 2008 ....................................................................... 85

Prepared statement of ............................................................................... 25

Mesenbourg, Thomas, Acting Deputy Director, U.S. Bureau of the Census, prepared statement of ........................................................................... 72

Mills, Frank L., Ph.D., director, Eastern Caribbean Center, University

of the Virgin Islands, prepared statement of .............................................. 40

Pula, Nikalao, Director, Office of Insular Affairs, U.S. Department of

the Interior, prepared statement of ............................................................. 78

(1)

CENSUS DATA: SPECIAL ISSUES RELATED TO

U.S. TERRITORIES

WEDNESDAY, MAY 21, 2008

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, SUBCOMMITTEE ON INFOR- MATION POLICY, CENSUS, AND NATIONAL ARCHIVES, COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM, JOINT WITH THE SUBCOMMITTEE ON INSULAR AFFAIRS, COMMITTEE ON NATURAL RESOURCES, Washington, DC.

The subcommittees met, pursuant to notice, at 10 a.m., in room

2154, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Wm. Lacy Clay (chairman of the Subcommittee on Information Policy, Census, and National Archives) presiding.

Present from the Subcommittee on Information Policy, Census,

and National Archives: Representatives Clay and Turner.

Present from the Subcommittee on Insular Affairs: Representatives Christensen, Serrano, Faleomavaega, Bordallo, and Fortun ̃ o.

Also present: Representative Burton.

Staff present from the Subcommittee on Information Policy, Census, and National Archives: Darryl Piggee, staff director/counsel;

Jean Gosa, clerk; Alissa Bonner and Michelle Mitchell, professional

staff members; Charisma Williams, staff assistant; Leneal Scott,

information systems manager; John Cuaderes, minority senior investigator and policy advisor; and Benjamin Chance and Chris

Espinoza, minority professional staff members.

Staff present from the Subcommittee on Insular Affairs: Tony

Babauta, staff director; Brian Modeste, counsel; Allison Cowan,

clerk; and Rich Stanton, minority staff director.

Mr. CLAY. The Information Policy, Census, and National Archives Subcommittee will now come to order.

Good morning. Today’s joint hearing is on the ‘‘Census Data: Special Issues Related to the U.S. Territories.’’

I want to thank my colleagues on the Insular Affairs Subcommittee, particularly Chairwoman Donna Christensen and Ranking

Member Luis Fortun ̃ o for agreeing to hold this joint hearing.

Without objection, the Chair and ranking minority member will

have 5 minutes to make opening statements, followed by opening

statements not to exceed 3 minutes by any other Member who

seeks recognition.

Without objection, Members and witnesses may have 5 legislative days to submit a written statement or extraneous materials for

the record.

It is an honor to team up with my good friend, Chairwoman

Donna Christensen, on the Insular Affairs Subcommittee, for this

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hearing. Today we will examine the significance of creating an annual survey in partnership with the U.S. Census Bureau and the

governments of the Virgin Islands, Guam, American Samoa, and

the Northern Marianas.

It is important for Congress to understand the obstacles presented in the insular area by the unavailability of current population, economy, or labor force data. Unlike the States, the District

of Columbia, and Puerto Rico, these territories are forced to depend

on 10-year decennial and 5-year economic census data to make critical policy decisions. Citizens within the insular areas contribute

economically, socially, and militarily to our country. They rightfully

deserve equal access to annual, federally sanctioned data that is

accurate and meaningful.

Our expert witnesses are equipped with the knowledge and experience to provide us with valuable insight on how this oversight

can be corrected. I thank all for appearing and look forward to your

testimony.

[The prepared statement of Hon. Wm. Lacy Clay follows:]

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Mr. CLAY. I now recognize the ranking member, Mr. Turner, of

Ohio.

Mr. TURNER. Thank you, Chairman Clay, for holding this hearing

on census data and its importance to the U.S. territories. I would

also like to welcome my friend, Ranking Member Fortun ̃ o, to today’s hearing. Today we will examine how important census data

is to public and private policymakers when it comes to key decisions regarding the U.S. territories.

Mr. Chairman, there are many stakeholders interested in our

hearing today. The Federal Government alone gives billions of dollars each year to State and local governments to spend on various

projects that are deemed important by policymakers. However,

States and local governments are not alone in receiving this aid.

Much of what the Federal Government spends also goes to the

nearly 4.5 million residents of the U.S. territories of American

Samoa, Guam, the U.S. Virgin Islands, and Puerto Rico.

I want to thank Mr. Fortun ̃ o for his tenacity on this important

issue. Since we spend most of our time worrying about how census

counts and data affect the 50 States and various local governments,

we often overlook how the U.S. territories are treated. He is a

champion of the people of Puerto Rico with valid arguments regarding why the territories need accurate and up-to-date census data.

Besides Federal spending, private stakeholders use census data

to make policy decisions on economic and social issues affecting the

territories. I join with my colleagues in urging the Census Bureau

to use reasonable means to ensure the residents of the U.S. territories are counted in a way that helps decisionmakers at all levels

of Government and the private sector.

Mr. Chairman, I am anxious to hear what our witnesses have to

say and I look forward to this productive hearing. I yield back the

balance of my time.

Mr. CLAY. Thank you so much, Mr. Turner.

I now recognize Chairwoman Christensen.

Mrs. CHRISTENSEN. Thank you, Chairman Clay. Let me begin by

extending my appreciation to you and the members of the Subcommittee on Information Policy, Census, and National Archives

for agreeing to hold this hearing jointly with the Subcommittee on

Insular Affairs. I would have much preferred that, as we had originally hoped, we would have had this hearing in Puerto Rico and

the Virgin Islands, but, nevertheless, I am glad and I thank you

again for helping us to come today to gather testimony and get into

a discussion about the absence of data collection in the U.S. territories.

Mr. Chairman, given the distance and time zones that separate

Washington, DC, from our U.S. territories, I also want to welcome

those residents from the Virgin Islands, Puerto Rico, American

Samoa, Guam, and the Northern Mariana Islands who have tuned

in to listen to the broadcast of this hearing via the Internet.

Today we will hear from witnesses from two of the five U.S. territories. Each will offer their perspective on data collection or lack

thereof in the Virgin Islands and Puerto Rico. It is my presumption

that while there may be small differences, treatment of the Virgin

Islands is very similar to her sister territories of Guam, American

Samoa, and the Northern Marianas. Puerto Rico, however, due in

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part to its size and also an Executive order issued by the first

President George Bush, receives more State-like treatment.

At this time I will note that invited representatives from the Pacific territories were unable to travel here to attend this hearing,

but have asked that their testimony be made a part of the joint

hearing record. So if there is no objection, I would like to submit

the testimony of Governor Togiola Tulafono of American Samoa.

Mr. CLAY. Without objection.

Mrs. CHRISTENSEN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

[The prepared statement of Mr. Tulafono follows:]

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Mrs. CHRISTENSEN. Mr. Chairman, as both a delegate from the

U.S. Virgin Islands and chairman of the Subcommittee on Insular

Affairs, I often hear, and actually join in the chorus myself, in the

demand for equal treatment of fellow Americans not residing in one

of the 50 States of the Union, but residing instead in a state of

limbo. The examples run the gamut from grants to treaties to voting for the next President, or even voting on the floor of the House

of Representatives.

In response to these demands for equal treatment, the work of

our subcommittee, much like yours, has to investigate the problem

and find the balance between what can be done versus what needs

to be done. We find, more often than not, a willingness among honest brokers can find a path to its fairness.

I look forward to our first panel of witnesses in assisting our subcommittees to understand the problem of excluding our U.S. territories in whole or in part from activities conducted by the U.S.

Census Bureau, looking at how this exclusion affects local decisionmaking, how it impacts decisions at the national level, how it affects funding of important programs and services, and does it actually move our fellow Americans living in the territories forward.

Our Federal witnesses have a more difficult task of explaining

why these areas are excluded, but we feel that we can count on

their open-mindedness and expertise to help us move in a fairer direction, and we already started those discussions.

Again, my deepest gratitude to you, Chairman Clay, for agreeing

to this hearing.

[The prepared statement of Hon. Donna M. Christensen follows:]

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Mr. CLAY. Thank you very much, Mrs. Christensen.

I now recognize Mr. Fortun ̃ o from Puerto Rico.

Mr. FORTUN ̃ O. Let me begin by thanking Chairman Clay, Chairwoman Christensen, and Ranking Member Turner for calling this

oversight hearing.

The issue we examine at today’s hearing may seem like a mere

housekeeping problem. It is not. This disparate treatment afforded

the U.S. territories in the collection and reporting of census data,

and the consequent unavailability of current and reliable information on the territories is not an extract or technical issue. Rather,

it is an issue with meaningful consequences for the residents of

these areas.

We need to determine whether our census practices have—as I

and many others suspect—made it more difficult for Americans living in the territories to participate fully in the equal opportunity

society our Nation has always strived to achieve. The primary

question that Congress needs to ask and obtain a clear answer to

is whether social, political, and economic growth in the territories

is impeded because the territories are treated differently in the collection and reporting of census data and, as a result, are treated

differently by the various Government agencies that rely on this information to provide services intended to benefit all Americans.

I do not want to prejudge the testimony of the experts on the

panel, but I am confident that today’s hearing will confirm that the

disparate treatment of the U.S. territories has an adverse impact

on the ability of Federal and local government agencies to provide

services in the territories, as well as on private sector-led development in the territories.

Common sense and experience suggests that this information

deficit has had and will continue to have a negative effect on the

provision of education and health care, capital investment from the

States and overseas, the vitality of the local economy, employment,

and income levels, and the overall standard of living and quality

of life of territorial residents. If this is the case, Congress must be

prepared to act in order to redress this disparity.

As Mr. Cimadevilla and the other panelists will explain, the situation facing Puerto Rico is not the same as the situation facing the

other territories. For instance, Puerto Rico has been included in the

American community survey since 2005, a clear, although belated

step in that direction. Nonetheless, in various ways Puerto Rico remains at a distinct disadvantage, compared with the States, with

respect to the collection and reporting of demographic, social, and

economic data.

I would be remiss if the record did not reflect my belief that no

matter what measures Congress adopts to address the particular

problem discussed at this hearing, Puerto Rico will remain at a

perpetual disadvantage unless and until it normalizes its political

status. For the smaller territories, there may be narrowly tailored

solutions to the problems we examine today. Not so with Puerto

Rico. Puerto Rico’s 4 million U.S. citizens live under the U.S. flag,

under U.S. sovereignty, and under U.S. Federal law. The disparate

treatment by the Census Bureau, and, therefore, by those in the

public and private sector that utilize its data is an inevitable byVerDate 11-MAY-2000 11:32 Nov 21, 2008 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00026 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 C:\DOCS\44911.TXT KATIE PsN: KATIE
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product of a much larger problem: the longstanding denial of equal

civil and political rights to the residents of Puerto Rico.

Puerto Rico’s unresolved political status is primarily a result of

Congress’s failure to fulfill its responsibility to sponsor a fair and

orderly self-determination process on the island, one in which the

people of Puerto Rico are able to express their preference between

permanent constitutionally valid options. The only genuine solution

to both the discrete problem we examine today and the other problem of Puerto Rico’s political status is for the people of Puerto Rico

to choose, in a congressionally approved process, statehood or independence, but in neither case to continue their condition as secondclass citizens of the greatest democracy on Earth.

It is my most fervent hope that the hard work of Chairwoman

Christensen on her subcommittee will come to fruition with the

passage of H.R. 900, the Puerto Rico Democracy Act of 2007, which

has been reported to the House by the full Committee on Natural

Resources.

I want to conclude my statement by noting that earlier this

morning I sent a letter to Speaker Pelosi, asking that she use her

leadership to bring H.R. 900 to a vote on the House floor. I would

ask that this letter be made part of the record of today’s proceedings.

Mr. CLAY. Without objection.

[The information referred to follows:]

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Mr. FORTUN ̃ O. In the coming weeks, I will deliver to Speaker

Pelosi thousands of petitions from the U.S. citizens of Puerto Rico

seeking her help to ensure that Congress, after more than 100

years, finally afford the people of Puerto Rico the right to participate in a fully informed self-determination process. I will tell you

what I told Speaker Pelosi. If we can summon the will and the

courage to see it through, passage of H.R. 900 will be remembered

as one of the greatest historical accomplishments of this 110th Congress.

I want to thank my colleague and friend, Jos ́e Serrano, for his

leadership on that part. It will end decades of institutionalized disenfranchisement of 4 million Americans, so many of whom have

fought and bled and died for this great country. We must not leave

the hard work for another day or another Congress. The time to

act is now.

Thank you very much.

[The prepared statement of Hon. Luis G. Fortun ̃ o follows:]

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Mr. CLAY. Thank you very much, Mr. Fortun ̃ o.

I would like to recognize my friend from American Samoa, Mr.

Faleomavaega, and welcome him to the joint committee.

Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. Mr. Chairman, I do deeply appreciate the

initiative that you and our chairman of our Insular Affairs Subcommittee have taken this morning to conduct this oversight hearing, and I certainly want to thank also my good friend, Mr. Turner,

whom I have had the privilege of meeting with our members of

Parliament from Germany just last week and, in doing so, sharing

some common issues with the European Union countries. I want to

thank also our distinguished chairlady, Mrs. Christensen, and our

ranking member, Mr. Fortun ̃ o, for bringing this to the forefront.

I want to associate myself with all the comments that have been

made by Mr. Fortun ̃ o and our chairwoman, Mrs. Christensen, in

bringing this concern to our colleagues and to the public. We have

over 5 million fellow Americans who live out there in insular areas,

and if you want to look at an equivalent, that is population of four

to five States of our country, and I think we need to understand

this.

I want to share with you, Mr. Chairman, the statement that always seems to ring in my mind every time we talk about the issues

of the needs of our insular areas, and this was stated by a former

Member of this institution and a retired brigadier general from the

territory of Guam, my good friend former Congressman Ben Blaz.

He said this: ‘‘We are equal in war, but not in peace.’’

So sons and daughters coming from these insular areas who

bleed and die in the defense of our Nation, and somewhere along

the line every time there are questions—and I realize that not all

the provisions of the Constitution apply to fellow Americans living

in these insular areas, kind of like a selective basis—sometimes

Federal laws, when they come out, we are constantly trying to fill

in the holes, the cracks, and saying that maybe insular areas ought

to be considered on the same basis for the simple reason these are

fellow Americans. We live and we bleed and we die just like our

other fellow Americans living, just as my good friend Mr. Fortun ̃ o

has stated in his eloquent statement.

So I cannot thank you enough. I think this hearing was long over

due, and I look forward to hearing from our friends downtown concerning this issue and see what we need to do by way of legislation

or changing policy so that Insular Affairs could be given better

treatment by the Census Bureau and other agencies that deal with

collecting data and information for the needs of these territories.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

[The prepared statement of Hon. Eni F.H. Faleomavaega follows:]

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Mr. CLAY. Thank you so much for your opening statement.

Let me also ask the committee, without objection, to include our

good friend, Mr. Serrano, from New York, who has a very keen interest in the territories, and I recognize Mr. Serrano for 5 minutes

for an opening statement.

Mr. SERRANO. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. First of all, I want to

thank the leadership of both committees for allowing me to sit with

you today. This is an issue, as you and I have discussed on many

occasions, of great importance to me.

Since becoming chairman of the Appropriations Financial Services Subcommittee, I have joined my colleagues in trying to bring

fairness to the territories. It is for that reason that the territories

were included in the tax rebate program, because we felt that all

the territories should be treated equally.

I was also, as chairman, able to get legislation for something that

I think is very important. Some may laugh at it when they find

out, but it is including the territories in the quarters programs.

The program was going to end this year, having a quarter issued

for every State. It is expanded for another year so that the territories can get a quarter, which is being designed right now as we

speak.

Last, Mr. Chairman, during my time as ranking member on the

Commerce Justice State Committee, I worked with the Census Bureau to try to increase the involvement of the Census Bureau in

the territories, and I am proud to say that work led to the fact

that, in the case of Puerto Rico and other territories, the Census

Bureau is doing more than it had been doing in the past.

But there is still something that is gravely missing, and that is

the following. Many scholars, when I speak to them, bring up the

fact that the Constitution speaks that the people of the States

should be counted. Well, when the Constitution was written, it did

not anticipate territories with citizens, and it certainly did not anticipate territories for 110 years with citizens. Territories, as Mr.

Fortun ̃ o has stated, were set up in those days to transition folks

into statehood, not to keep them for that long a time.

So as far as I am concerned, fairness dictates that the territories

be treated equally. I leave you with this thought—and I want to

preface my comments by saying that I am one of the leaders on the

House floor on behalf of the rights of undocumented aliens. But

just think of this. An undocumented alien who lives in New York

gets counted as part of the 300 million folks who live in this country, but the 4 million citizens who live in Puerto Rico don’t get

counted as far as the national population. So when we say, for instance, that we have 35 million, for argument’s sake, Hispanics in

the Nation, not true; we have about 39 to 40 million, except that

the territories are not counted. When we say we have roughly 300

million Americans, not true; we have 304.5 million.

So part of what I would like to see is not only the surveys that

move to bring fairness to the territories in terms of the proper information, but also that everybody under the American flag gets

counted as part of the American family. And I thank you, Mr.

Chairman.

Mr. CLAY. Thank you so much for your statement.

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Last but not least, I would like to recognize my friend from

Guam, Ms. Bordallo, if you have an opening statement.

Ms. BORDALLO. First, I want to thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, and you, Chairwoman Christensen, for convening this joint

oversight hearing today to examine the issues affecting the fulfillment of the mission of the Bureau of Census with regard to the territories. I certainly agree with much that has been said by my colleague, Mr. Serrano, this morning.

This is a very important subject because the work and the products of the Census Bureau are routinely relied upon by decisionmakers in both the public and the private sectors to make informed

decisions about finances, organization of resources, and employment, among other matters.

The Census Bureau performs a critical role in the functioning of

our society today, and its work in partnering with the territories

to collect and disseminate data deserves to be strengthened. We

know the Census Bureau has a long history and that, since its inception, it has adapted to meet the needs and the challenges of a

growing country and responded to emerging demands for information about demographic and socioeconomic trends in population.

The territories must not—and I repeat that—must not be left behind as the Census Bureau prepares the decennial census required

by our Constitution and its development of other special surveys.

The territories present unique challenges, including multicultural

and multilingual populations, as well as geographic disbursement

of our populations, in some cases among several islands. Furthermore, there is a serious void in historical data for the territories,

as we looked at it today.

So this makes sound public policy decisionmaking very difficult

and sometimes results in disparities in treatment of Americans residing in the territories, as compared with Americans residing in

the 50 States under certain Federal programs. So I look forward

today to the testimony, and I am most interested in learning how

the Census Bureau plans to address the important issues that the

Governors and the committees have raised.

Further, I hope that Chairwoman Christensen will keep the

record open for written responses to some concerns and other Members may wish to make regarding the work of the Office of Insular

Affairs to conduct the enumeration of citizens of the freely associated States who reside in Guam, the Commonwealth of the Northern Marianas Islands, the State of Hawaii, and American Samoa.

I know that this enumeration is not the main focus of today’s hearing, but it is nonetheless a relevant and timely issue, and I would

appreciate the opportunity to receive responses for the record.

So, again, I thank you, Chairman Clay and Chairwoman

Christensen, for holding this hearing and for your work on this

issue of great national significance.

[The prepared statement of Hon. Madeleine A. Bordallo follows:]

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Mr. CLAY. Thank you very much for the opening statement.

If there are no more opening statements, we will now proceed

with testimony from the witnesses. I want to start by introducing

our first panel.

We will hear first from Dr. Frank Mills, director of the Eastern

Caribbean Center at the University of the Virgin Islands. Dr. Mills

serves as the Virgin Islands contact for the Federal-State Cooperative Program for Population Estimates, an information cooperation

between the Federal Government and the States in the area of

local population estimates. Dr. Mills also serves as director of the

Virgin Islands Census Data Center. As director of the Data Center,

Dr. Mills works closely with the U.S. Census Bureau in preparation

of the content of census questionnaires. Dr. Mills has also served

as Operations Supervisor and Manager for Census. Thank you for

appearing before the subcommittee today.

Our final witness on the first panel is Mr. Francisco Cimadevilla,

vice president and editor in chief of Casiana Communications, Inc.

Prior to becoming VP and editor in 2004, Mr. Cimadevilla served

as editor of Caribbean Business, the leading business newspaper in

Puerto Rico and the Caribbean, published by Casiana Communications, Inc. Mr. Cimadevilla has held several key roles that have

given him insight on economics, including Assistant Secretary of

State for Caribbean Basin Affairs at the Department of State in

San Juan, Puerto Rico; as Chief Officer for Economic Development

Policy at the Department of Economic Development and Commerce;

and as Deputy Secretary of that Department.

It is the policy of the Oversight and Government Reform Committee to swear in all witnesses before they testify. I would like to

ask all witnesses to please stand and raise your right hands.

[Witnesses sworn.]

Mr. CLAY. Thank you. You may be seated.

Let the record reflect that the witnesses answered in the affirmative.

I ask that each witness now give a brief summary of their testimony and to keep their summary under 5 minutes in duration.

Your complete written statement will be included in the hearing

record.

Dr. Frank Mills, we will begin with you. Welcome to the committee.

STATEMENTS OF FRANK L. MILLS, PH.D., DIRECTOR, EASTERN

CARIBBEAN CENTER, UNIVERSITY OF THE VIRGIN ISLANDS;

AND FRANCISCO CIMADEVILLA, VICE PRESIDENT AND EDITOR IN CHIEF, CASIANA COMMUNICATIONS, INC.

STATEMENT OF FRANK L. MILLS

Mr. MILLS. Good morning, Mr. Chairman and Madam Chairwoman and members of the subcommittees. My name is Frank

Mills and I am professor of social sciences at the University of the

Virgin Islands and director of the Eastern Caribbean Center, a social research unit of the University responsible for conducting the

decennial census for the U.S. Virgin Islands. I appreciate the opportunity to appear before you today.

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I have spent the last 29 years of my professional career working

on census related activities. I therefore ask permission to include

the full written statement into the hearing record.

The principal method the U.S. Government uses to distribute a

wide variety of assistance to States and local governments depends

in very large measure on data derived from the decennial census.

This system makes sense for all of the obvious reasons. Doing it

any other way would likely be disproportionate, unfair, and inadvertently discriminatory. This very workable reliance on accurately

gathered data is applied to every one of the 50 States and to Puerto

Rico. It is not applied to the island areas.

As a citizen, resident, and principal demographic researcher in

the U.S. Virgin Islands, I can testify that, by applying a whole different approach to us alone, we are deprived access to all kinds of

Federal assistance. This includes full use of Medicaid, programs to

assist children and families such as child poverty, and support programs for the No Child Left Behind Act. With annual data, we

would be able to assess local needs such as where new roads,

schools, and senior citizen centers should be located.

National organizations and foundations also use the ACS to determine funding. For example, a recent health initiative by a major

national foundation overlooked the USVI because our numbers

were not in the American community survey on which they based

their grant decisions. We are not only among the poorest communities in the Nation, with approximately 30 percent of the population living below the poverty level, but are also denied the tools

on which to accurately assess our need and justify the assistance

our people greatly need. Many of these issues could be resolved if

the Virgin Islands were included in the American community survey.

I was delighted to note, when reading the Acting Deputy Director

Mesenbourg’s prepared statement, that he agrees these problems

could be largely resolved by including the Virgin Islands in the

ACS. He does note, however, that the Census Bureau appears to

lack the funds to implement the extension of the ACS to the Virgin

Islands. But we would have heard this many times before. It is difficult to know for certain how to break this barrier, but agencies

are well known for finding the money for projects they want to accomplish and having a difficult time finding the money for projects

to which they give a low priority.

Or is the way to deal with this for Congress to direct the agency

to do what Mr. Mesenbourg says would be good policy? If necessary, perhaps Congress should undertake to determine whether

the Census Bureau needs additional funding to do this. Out of simple fairness to the people of the Virgin Islands, enabling them to

access funding that all other Americans can access would seem to

be the only honest and fair thing to do.

I also note that the Acting Deputy Director has outlined in his

written testimony the general procedure for the conduct of the decennial census in the Virgin Islands. However, there are some specific suggestions that I wish to submit that I strongly believe can

improve or minimize the disparities in the 2010 census process between the States and the USVI. We suggest that: one, advertising

plans allow more local input to maximize our knowledge of the terVerDate 11-MAY-2000 11:32 Nov 21, 2008 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00044 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 C:\DOCS\44911.TXT KATIE PsN: KATIE
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ritory; two, that the current technology combined with recent digital aerial photography be utilized to remedy the difficulties associated with map-spotting households; three, that data coding be carried out by locals; and, four, that 2010 census products include a

publication of cross-tabulation of the more relevant demographics,

social, and economic housing data.

Finally, I want to address a common misconception. Contrary to

the perception that a mass address list does not exist for the Virgin

Islands, we would point to the fact that during the decennial census an a 100 percent address list developed. Simply put, the Virgin

Islands will compile an address list.

In summary, the USVI seeks statutory language requiring the

Census Bureau to include the USVI in the American community

survey in 2011.

Mr. Chairman, Madam Chairman, thank you for conducting this

important hearing. We are encouraged, indeed, by this initiative. I

am prepared to answer any questions that you may have.

[The prepared statement of Mr. Mills follows:]

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Mr. CLAY. Thank you so much, Dr. Mills.

Mr. Cimadevilla, you have 5 minutes.

STATEMENT OF FRANCISCO CIMADEVILLA

Mr. CIMADEVILLA. Good morning, Mr. Chairman Clay, Madam

Chairwoman Christensen, distinguished members of both subcommittees. Thank you very much for the opportunity to appear

before you during this joint hearing to examine the disparate treatment of the U.S. territories by the Census Bureau and the unavailability of current or reliable data of these areas.

My name is Francisco Cimadevilla. I am vice president and editor-in-chief of Casiana Communications, the largest Hispanic

owned publisher of magazines and periodicals in the United States,

headquartered in San Juan, Puerto Rico, and editor-in-chief of its

flagship weekly newspaper, Caribbean Business, the largest circulation business publication in Puerto Rico and the Caribbean.

My comments this morning will focus on the subject matter as

it pertains to Puerto Rico only, and will not address or refer to

other U.S. territories or outlying areas.

The first census conducted in the United States in 1790, just a

year after the inauguration of our first president and shortly before

the end of the second session of the 1st Congress convened of the

republic. Those historical facts evidence the importance our founding fathers attributed to the census process as an indispensable

tool to make sound decisions regarding the future of the Nation.

Under the general direction of Thomas Jefferson, then Secretary

of State, marshals the census not only in the original 13 States, but

also in the districts of Kentucky, Maine, and Vermont, and the

southwest territory of today’s Tennessee.

When results came in, both Washington and Jefferson expressed

skepticism over the final count, expecting a number that far exceeded the 3.9 million inhabitants returned by the census.

Curiously, 210 years later, the most recent census conducted in

the land counted 3.9 million inhabitants in the territory of Puerto

Rico alone, the same number reported by the first census for the

entire U.S. population.

The concerns that probably motivated Washington and Jefferson’s skepticism—that is, quality, reliability, and, most importantly, completeness of the data collected by the census in order to

make decisions about the future of the Nation—are the same concerns that I respectfully bring to your attention today in relation

to the specific case of Puerto Rico.

So I thank you, Mr. Chairman and Madam Chairwoman for your

leadership in addressing this important issue in this hearing.

Collection of reliable data, its thorough analysis, and the appropriate and timely dissemination of accurate reports based on those

data are essential to responsible decisionmaking not only by elected

and appointed government officials, but by the private sector as

well.

As you well know, census data are critical to fair representation

of the population in this House of Representatives, but it is also

important for the fair distribution of Federal funds among all entitled U.S. citizens, the adequate planning of capital improvement

projects, and many other Federal Governmental functions. But, furVerDate 11-MAY-2000 11:32 Nov 21, 2008 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00056 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 C:\DOCS\44911.TXT KATIE PsN: KATIE
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ther, accurate census data are equally essential to economic development efforts of State governments, including those of the territories, as well as sound business decisions by the private sector

throughout the country, including Puerto Rico.

Puerto Rico is not new to the census. The U.S. War Department

conducted a census in the territory in 1899, just a few months after

Spain ceded the island to the United States as a result of the Spanish-American War.

Starting in 1910, the U.S. Census Bureau has been conducting

decennial census of population and housing in Puerto Rico. From

1960 to 1990, Puerto Rico used the decennial census questionnaire

that was different from the one used in the States, presumably to

address Puerto Rico’s unique needs.

But as Puerto Rico became more integrated to the national economy over time, the local government realized that equality, standardization, and integration with national census data were more

important for all the U.S. citizens residing in Puerto Rico than

unique needs.

In 1997, thus, the government of Puerto Rico requested the Census Bureau that the same decennial questionnaire content used

stateside be used in Puerto Rico.

Thus, census 2000 was the first time the Census Bureau and

Puerto Rico really experienced the benefits of standardization.

There is no question that standardization has been beneficial to

both the U.S. census and Puerto Rico. For the 2000 decennial census, for example, the Census Bureau released the census data products of Puerto Rico at the same time as in the States, avoiding lateness by making the census statistics available at an early stage for

the community of data users when comparable with previous decennial censuses where the census standard products of Puerto

Rico were released much later than in the 50 States.

Still, there are areas with respect to the decennial census in

which Puerto Rico is at a disadvantage compared with the 50

States in relation to demographic, social, and economic data.

Perhaps the most vexing problem regarding the accurate reporting of census data pertaining to Puerto Rico is the utter lack of

consistency in their inclusion in national totals.

In its Decision Memorandum No. 64 of 1999, the Census Bureau

stated that Puerto Rico would be shown in all census 2000 national

summary tables of population and housing characteristics, but not

included in the national totals ‘‘for reasons of statistical consistency

with other government agencies such as the Bureau of Labor Statistics.’’ Frankly, that rationalization sort of begs the question before this committee.

Furthermore, with the data collected through the decennial census and other surveys, the Bureau prepares multiple reports

through the Special Tabulation Program. Many times these reports

are financed by other Federal agencies and many times they just

decide not to include Puerto Rico.

As we understand it, the format and whether or not data totals

include the territories or not seems to depend on the whim of the

question sponsor or data requester.

One of Puerto Rico’s big frustrations is that many end products

do not include the island with the States, even when the data have

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been collected and there appears to be no rational analytical basis

for the discrepancy. Excluding Puerto Rico, or any jurisdiction for

that matter, makes for both bad policy and bad business decisions,

since such exclusion undermines the ability to ascertain risks and

benefits, and thus make rational judgments.

At a minimum, it would be desirable if, for every Census Bureau

table covering the States, Congress required that the end product

included a grand total for all States, the District of Columbia, and

the insular areas, and perhaps also subtotals for, one, all the

States; two, the District of Columbia; and, three, all insular or outlying areas, with a breakdown by area. This would allow both Congress and the Executive to enact policy on the basis of the grand

total, while keeping a tally of the numbers for the States alone for

any legitimate reason for which such subtotals should be used.

Mr. Chairman, Madam Chairwoman, in the interest of time, I

will bring my testimony this morning to a quick conclusion and call

your attention to the full length written testimony I have submitted to the committee staff, which I ask respectfully be made part

of the record of this hearing. In it, I address issues and concerns

regarding the disparate treatment of Puerto Rico by the Census

Bureau in its other data collection and reporting activities beyond

the decennial census, such as the current population survey, from

which Puerto Rico is excluded, the American community survey,

Current Employment Statistics, and the all-important economic

census.

Finally, let me just say that our concerns are not limited to the

Census Bureau data collection and reporting only, but extend to

other areas of Federal data collection and reporting. For example,

reports published by the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid routinely exclude Puerto Rico. Excluding Puerto Rico from these reports is like excluding Maine, New Hampshire, and Vermont, since

Puerto Rico has more Medicare recipients than those three States

combined.

Being excluded from the U.S. census reports and any other disparate treatment of Puerto Rico as compared with the States

means that the U.S. citizens of Puerto Rico are often not considered

when proposals are presented, policies analyzed, and legislation approved. Therefore, I respectfully urge you to take appropriate legislative action so that the Census Bureau and other Federal agencies

take the appropriate measures to include the same data and analysis for Puerto Rico as they do for the 50 States so that when Congress makes a decision regarding the future of the Nation, Puerto

Rico is taken into consideration on an equal basis.

U.S. citizens living in the U.S. territory of Puerto Rico, whether

island-born or born stateside, deserve nothing less than equal

treatment. Washington and Jefferson, Mr. Chairman, would have

expected nothing less from any of us. Thank you very much.

[The prepared statement of Mr. Cimadevilla follows:]

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Mr. CLAY. Thank you so much, Mr. Cimadevilla, for your testimony, and Dr. Mills, for such informative testimony.

We will now move to the question period from Members and proceed under the 5-minute rule.

We will start with Dr. Mills. You have traveled quite a distance

to be here today and I want you to know that the subcommittee

appreciates your being here to discuss this important issue. We

know that data collected and published by the U.S. Census Bureau

is used by many decisionmakers. Could you tell the subcommittee

about the specific data requests that you are not able to fill because

you do not have current data from the Census Bureau?

Mr. MILLS. If I may couch the response in terms of the many programs which do not benefit from Federal funding because the data

that are available in the Virgin Islands are too little data or they

just don’t exist. My testimony included some specifics, as in the

case of a large initiative from which we were recently excluded, because we were not included as part of the ACS.

In general, the worst aspect of all of this is as time proceeds from

the decennial itself, the funding allocation to the Islands remain

fixed at the 2000 census, so that 5, 10, 9 years later, the Virgin

Islands is still receiving funding based on population figures that

may be up to 10 years old.

Mr. CLAY. That is the greatest challenge, really, that you don’t

have up to date and current figures.

Mr. MILLS. That is correct.

Mr. CLAY. In your testimony you speak of the impact of resource

allocation to the Virgin Islands. In your professional opinion, how

much money in Federal funding do you believe the Virgin Islands

have forfeited due to a lack of an annual verifiable survey conducted by the Bureau?

Mr. MILLS. Mr. Chairman, it is rather difficult to suggest a figure, but I would suggest there are two ways of looking at this. First

of all, as I have indicated, there are those programs which do not

get funding based on current data. But also there are many areas

in which, for example, the Islands do not derive benefit simply because there are that many programs which don’t even know that

the Virgin Islands is part of the Federal system and, as a result,

we never know what that figure is. So it is rather difficult to suggest an overall figure, but we know it is enormous.

Mr. CLAY. How much does it cost for the University to conduct

a Virgin Islands community survey?

Mr. MILLS. Right now, the local government contributes about

$100,000 annually. The University itself does not include the cost

of the time of its workers, which could easily be another $50,000.

So just in terms of personnel cost alone, we are talking just about

$150,000 to do that on an annual basis.

Mr. CLAY. Thank you so much for that answer.

Mr. Cimadevilla, thank you for being with us today, as well, and

for your testimony. The examples you provided help to illuminate

many of the points that have been made here today. Can you tell

the subcommittee a little more about how your industry uses census data and about the impact of late or inaccurate data on decisionmaking?

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Mr. CIMADEVILLA. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for that question.

In the specific case of Caribbean Business, being a business publication, I should say that a vast constituency in Puerto Rico relies

on the ability of business press to put forth the kinds of economic

data and information they need in order to make their decisions.

They, unlike academics or researchers, business people do not necessarily have access or don’t look for access of data of this sort, so

they rely on what, for example, publications like Caribbean Business publish in terms of what are the latest in the economy and

so on.

Let me just add that there is another constituency that is being

underserved by having less than equal data collection and reporting by the census, and that is the U.S. business community as a

whole. I can tell you, from our point of view, we report on this all

the time. When people—businesses, business leaders, boards of directors—are looking for a new location, for example, for their business, they have to conduct market research. If the data are not

available with respect to a particular area to be able to be compared to other areas they may be considering, that area is at a disadvantage in terms of its potential for economic development. So,

therefore, in the case of Puerto Rico, not having up-to-date information at par with that is available for the other States puts Puerto

Rico at a disadvantage in its effort to promote economic development.

Mr. CLAY. Thank you so much for your answer.

I recognize my friend from Puerto Rico, Mr. Fortun ̃ o, for 5 minutes.

Mr. FORTUN ̃ O. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I want to thank the panelists for making the trip over here. I

find both presentations intriguing and, actually, they add to the

record as to the point we want to make.

Mr. Cimadevilla, in your testimony you talked about the current

population survey [CPS]. What kind of information does the CPS

collect exactly and why is it important to include the territories for

the decisionmaking process that you were talking about?

Mr. CIMADEVILLA. The current population survey is a monthly

survey of 50,000 households that is conducted by the Bureau of the

Census for the Bureau of Labor Statistics. The survey has been

conducted for more than 50 years. Its primary source of information are the labor force characteristics of the U.S. population. Estimates obtained from the current population survey include employment, unemployment, earnings, hours of work, other indicators.

They are available in a variety of demographic characteristics, including age, sex, race, marital status, so on, so forth.

So the CPA’s data are used by government policymakers and legislatures as important indicators of the Nation’s economic situation

and for planning and evaluation of many government programs.

And, of course, they are used by the press, students, business leaders, etc.

Mr. FORTUN ̃ O. You also mentioned current employment statistics

and the fact that the territories are excluded. What kind of employment statistics, then, would Puerto Rico have? And, if I may, I

would like to ask Mr. Mills the same question to understand what

is the disparity here.

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Mr. CIMADEVILLA. Well, current employment statistics are collected in Puerto Rico, but the national CES employment estimates

exclude the workers from Puerto Rico. So BLS cooperates with the

Puerto Rico Department of Labor to collect the data and publish

employment estimates independent of national estimates.

Mr. FORTUN ̃ O. Mr. Mills, the USVI?

Mr. MILLS. This is an issue that goes back as far as 1980 that

I can recall having a discussion with the Director of Labor Statistics in the Virgin Islands, and that was the need to have more precise data than were actually collected at the time and still are collected. The data on employment derived largely from administrative records. But like the CPS, our Virgin Islands community survey is able to reach a group that administrative records is not able

to reach, and I refer specifically to the disgruntled workers who

never go to government agencies or undocumented workers who

don’t ever go to any kind of government agency. Hence, the unemployment data that are collected by the Bureau of Labor Statistics

reflect accurately on what the unemployment situation is and there

is only a sense of that deriving, then, from the Virgin Islands community survey, which is not supported by the Federal Government

in any way at all.

Mr. FORTUN ̃ O. Thank you, Mr. Mills.

Just to make sure, Mr. Cimadevilla—and that is my last question—you have a specific suggestion that there be a grand total for

all States in terms of the Census Bureau tables and that we break

it down by territories and the District of Columbia. Do you see,

from your perspective—and I will ask the question to the next panelists—the reason why that cannot be done today?

Mr. CIMADEVILLA. I wouldn’t be able to answer that. I don’t

know.

Mr. FORTUN ̃ O. Thank you.

Thank you and I yield back.

Mrs. CHRISTENSEN [presiding]. Thank you, Mr. Fortun ̃ o.

And thank you, panelists, Dr. Mills and Mr. Cimadevilla. Thank

you for your thoughtful and very comprehensive testimony—I did

have a chance to read it—and for your specific recommendations.

Mr. Mills, I just have to make this comment, because you said

in your testimony that OIA’s stopping the collection of data in the

middle of your collection was a statistician’s worst nightmare, but

it really sounds like the whole history of the territories dealing

with data is a nightmare. In our cases, first BLS rejects the request for inclusion in current population survey, then census stops

publishing intercensal data; OIA changes the kind of data we

should collect and later stops funding this. And then, to add to

that, we are told we can’t have ACS because we have no address

system, which is not a fact.

When you do the VI community survey, are you saying that even

though it is done, there is no way to get it included into the national census data?

Mr. MILLS. That is correct. The Census Bureau does not officially

recognize locally collected data such as VICS. Unless they collect

it themselves, by which they are able to verify all the methodologies that are associated with ACAS and CPS and all those, they

are not accorded any sort of validity.

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Mrs. CHRISTENSEN. OK, so, some discussions are beginning, and

it will probably come up in the next panel, that maybe census

would pay for it, and I guess that might have it included, or your

recommendation is that we be included in the American community

survey.

Mr. MILLS. Yes.

Mrs. CHRISTENSEN. Mr. Cimadevilla, if you want to respond to

this as well.

We would lose some of our flexibility in designing our form, but

we would be included, as I understand it, then, in this data set

that everyone looks at. Do you have any concerns about losing that

flexibility if we went to the ACS, as you recommend?

Mr. MILLS. Madam Chair, the Virgin Islands used the same census long form that stateside used up until 1980. In 1990 and 2000,

two or three questions relating specifically to the Virgin Islands

were included. If the choice is between being included in ACS and

retaining our unique questions, obviously, the Virgin Islands would

want to opt for the inclusion of ACS because the advantages clearly

outweigh the disadvantage of having two questions unique to the

Virgin Islands.

Mrs. CHRISTENSEN. So, Mr. Cimadevilla, in 1997 you went to

ACS.

Mr. CIMADEVILLA. Yes.

Mrs. CHRISTENSEN. Did you lose anything in the process?

Mr. CIMADEVILLA. I don’t believe so. As a matter of fact, for the

census 2000, in order to retain the possibility of Puerto Rico-specific data, the government of Puerto Rico entered into a Memorandum of Agreement with the Census Bureau establishing for any expansion programs, such as supplementary questionnaires and/or

special tabulations, requested by the government of Puerto Rico

would be evaluated and paid for by the government of Puerto Rico.

So we have retained the possibility of collecting Puerto Rico-specific

data so long as we are willing to pay for it, of course.

Mrs. CHRISTENSEN. Dr. Mills, I have two Virgin Islands questions. One, you might recall that after the 2000 census the Concerned Virgin Islander group had some concerns about being able

to identify themselves as Concerned Virgin Islanders. I know you

reached out to them. You probably haven’t heard much back from

them. But can that be addressed in the current census coming up?

Mr. MILLS. Madam Chair, I don’t think that it might be possible

at this point in time, since the content questionnaire has already

been fully established and I think has already been submitted. So

it would be too late for inclusion in the 2010 census questionnaire.

Mrs. CHRISTENSEN. But my understanding is that you did inquire

prior to the form being finalized?

Mr. MILLS. Yes. My office did attempt to find that out, yes,

Madam Chair.

Mrs. CHRISTENSEN. And just one last one, and another local

question from our Hispanic community. There were some concerns

also that the Hispanic community may have been under-counted in

the Virgin Islands. On their behalf, I would like to know what is

being done to reduce the under-count, if you agree that one occurred, and ensure that this population is accurately counted. Are

you planning to include Latinos among the persons hired for the

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2010 census staff, as well as persons who are fluent in Spanish?

And do you plan on having the questionnaires in both languages?

Mr. MILLS. Thank you for the question, Madam Chair. I would

like to do full justice to that question, but I will try to summarize

it, and I will introduce it by saying if in fact we did have an ACS

in the Virgin Islands, we would have a good sense of how the ethnic makeup of the Islands is changing. Having the decennial census

once in 10 years does not allow the Census Bureau to determine

ahead of time what that makeup is, and that is largely perhaps

what may have contributed to less than full appreciation of the existence of Hispanics in the Virgin Islands population.

At the risk of appearing defensive, we did not have any evidence

that there was an under-count of the Hispanic population in 2000.

However, in preparation for 2010, the Census Bureau has already

determined that it will issue questionnaires in Spanish. We have,

additionally, invited a Hispanic to be on the Census Interagency

Committee, which now exists, and, in fact, we will make every effort to also include representatives from St. Croix to be on that

panel. The difficulty there, of course, is that there is no common

funding source to bring Hispanics from St. Croix to St. Thomas

when the Interagency Committee meets. But there is every indication that we will make additional efforts to include not only Hispanics in a more expansive way in the 2010 census, by having

Spanish-speaking interviewers—and we did in 2000—but we will

certainly put more concentrated effort there to ensure not only the

inclusion of Hispanics in a solid way, but any other language besides English.

Mrs. CHRISTENSEN. Thank you, Mr. Mills.

The Chair now recognizes Mr. Faleomavaega for his questions.

Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. Thank you, Madam Chair. Just a couple of

questions.

My understanding, in layman’s terms, is I think the Census Bureau currently conducts about three or four major surveys that

kind of make up the whole system. Here we have the current population survey—is it an acronym, is that how you say it? I am still

learning how to speak English here, CPS, and then there is a survey of income and program participation [SIPP], and there is the

American community survey [ACS], and then the mid-decade survey. Am I right? How many other surveys besides these three or

four fundamental surveys are you aware of?

Mr. MILLS. The Agriculture census, which was mentioned.

Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. Oh, Agriculture. OK.

Mr. MILLS. And the business economic census.

Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. OK, my next question is I am just going to

do my own survey with both Puerto Rico and the Virgin Islands.

Do you have CPS?

Mr. MILLS. No, sir.

Mr. CIMADEVILLA. No.

Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. Good. I have a negative here. Do you have

SIPP?

Mr. CIMADEVILLA. We do.

Mr. MILLS. Once in 10 years.

Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. Once in 10 years? OK. Do you have ACS?

Mr. CIMADEVILLA. No.

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Mr. MILLS. No.

Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. OK, good. Do you have mid-decade survey?

Mr. MILLS. No, sir.

Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. OK, good. Puerto Rico does?

Mr. CIMADEVILLA. Mid-decade survey? Are you referring to the

economic census?

Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. According to my survey, American Samoa

has none of these. So I think I made 100 percent check on this

thing.

A lot of times I think I noticed, too, that maybe the substance

of the Federal law, where the Secretary of Commerce is given discretionary authority, and that discretionary authority many times

just simply wipes us out, simply because we can’t justify it because

this threshold sometimes I hear so much about, if you don’t have

a population level of 100,000 or something like that, forget it, they

are not going to do anything with you. Do you think that is fair?

Mr. CIMADEVILLA. Obviously not. I don’t think that is fair.

Congressman, if I could enlarge a little bit on your line of questions. Let me suggest for the committee to examine beyond just

whether a particular survey is being conducted in a particular territory. I think you ought to also focus on the accuracy and the timeliness of the reporting. For example, in Puerto Rico, the Census

Bureau does conduct economic census, but regularly reports on

those series come out at least a year after they come out with respect to the 50 States, which is difficult to understand since it is

a much smaller population. Not only that, there are issues about

the accuracy, for example. When I say a year after, bear in mind

the 2002 economic series, the manufacturing report with respect to

Puerto Rico came out 34 months after the data were collected.

Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. Well, I don’t mean to interrupt you, but the

bottom line is that you are just not getting the services. I mean,

that is in layman’s terms. I am just being very basic about this.

Four point 4 million U.S. citizens living in Puerto Rico, and in

many instances in my home of Butre, they are like a foreign country. And by being in that, as far as any sense of priority or any

sense of importance to these 4.4 million Americans—and we have

to look at Puerto Rico in a different category because the rest of

us in the insular areas are much smaller in terms of population.

So totally understandable. Puerto Rico, if it would become a State

tomorrow, it would have seven Members of Congress and two Senators. That is equivalent to four or five populations of States. So

I just want to get this on the record. The bottom line is that we

are constantly being put between the cracks, and either anybody

pays any attention, the bottom line is I don’t think—and our good

friend from the Census Bureau is going to testify later. I am sure

it is not out of their hearts that they hate us, but it is just simply

the Federal law being inconsistent, so it comes right back to the

Congress, really, in my humble opinion.

Mr. CIMADEVILLA. Let me add that it is not just the citizens resident in Puerto Rico that are disadvantaged. The American business

community is at disadvantage when reliable and timely economic

data out of the territories are not available to them to make decisions.

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Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. Let me just make this observation, Madam

Chair. I think my time is just about over. My little territory is

about 70,000 people, and 16 of my soldiers died in that terrible war

that we caused in Iraq. Now, I don’t know about my other fellow

sister territories in terms of the casualties per capita, but I think

we contribute pretty high amount of the blood that is spilled on behalf of our Nation; and let alone about 30 or 40 are wounded. I just

had to go to Walter Reed Hospital about 2 weeks ago; one of my

soldiers seriously wounded from IED.

These are the types of things that sometimes it saddens me that

on one instance—and I go back to my good friend General Blaz’s

statement. ‘‘We are equal in war, but not in peace.’’ And I think

we need to remedy this, Madam Chair.

Thank you so much, and I thank both gentlemen for their testimony.

Mrs. CHRISTENSEN. Thank you, Mr. Faleomavaega.

The Chair now recognizes Chairman Serrano for his questions.

Mr. SERRANO. Thank you so much. I couldn’t help but think, as

I heard my friend from American Samoa speak, how some of the

inconsistency of the whole relationship—which is not what we are

discussing today, but, nevertheless, inconsistent. Just think, if you

were born in Mayaguez and stay in Mayaguez, you have certain

rights. If you move to the Bronx, you can run and be a Member

of Congress. So it just doesn’t make sense at times.

You know, both of you spoke about the lack of data playing a role

in being able, obviously, to deliver services. Is that for all services

or do services that come directly from the Federal Government get

better treatment? I will explain. Both parties—and I say this with

respect—in Congress, both parties go out of their way to say that

we support the troops more than the other party. Yet, I wonder if

the Veterans Administration has the same information on the territories than it has in the 50 States, and how that would affect the

services that are provided. Do you have any thoughts on that?

Mr. MILLS. If I may, sir. I can remember specifically 2 years ago

there was an effort to establish a monument to soldiers who had

died in St. Croix, and my office was tasked with getting that information, and we sought the assistance of all the Federal agencies,

including the armed forces, that we knew were supposed to have

that information, and we came up with so little that the effort

could not go forward. That is a bit disgraceful.

Mr. SERRANO. It is.

Mr. Cimadevilla.

Mr. CIMADEVILLA. In my testimony I made reference to the case

of Medicare and Medicaid. Those reports that are published by the

Centers of Medicare and Medicaid routinely exclude Puerto Rico. I

don’t know if it is a crick in the neck situation, but does the

present unequal treatment to Puerto Rico with respect to Medicare

reimbursements, for example, is it a reflection that Congress is less

aware about the needs of a Medicare population there that, as I

mentioned in the testimony, adds up to more than those of Maine,

New Hampshire, and Vermont combined? Notwithstanding the

leadership or Congressman Fortun ̃ o on this effort, and I know you

are familiar with it too, the push from Puerto Rico to get equal

treatment in Medicare I think is a reflection of that problem.

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Mr. SERRANO. Let me ask you a question, and the way I want

to ask you the question is do you agree with me or not. And feel

free to disagree with me; it is not a problem. I get angry, I cry, but

it is not a major problem. [Laughter.]

When the Constitution was written, it said to count the people

amongst the States. As I said before, it never envisioned territories

being held a long time, but it certainly never envisioned citizenship

or American nationals, as in Samoa, living in these territories. So

my question is if you were asked to interpret that Constitution

now—since the Constitution is a living and evolving document—

wouldn’t you agree with me that Constitution does not stop the territories from having their population included in the general population of the 50 States? Of the Nation, if you will.

Mr. MILLS. I would go back, and have gone back, to Title 13, as

Title 13 spells that it is possible for the Department of Commerce

to get involved and to conduct censuses and surveys in small local

areas, government areas. It does not exclude any of the small island governments. And yet the Secretary of Commerce does not see

fit to extend any of these services to the Islands except the decennial census.

Mr. CIMADEVILLA. Ultimately, Congressman, it may be a semantic problem between counting and counting in. Is the constitutional

mandate to count the people in the States or count them in? It appears that in many respects the citizens of the territories are being

counted but not necessarily counted in.

Mr. SERRANO. I would agree. Just in conclusion, my argument

has always been—and I will reiterate it for the third time today—

that if you decided years ago to give out American citizenship in

territories, then you can’t have a subtotal, and that is what we

have now. Our great victory in the last few years—and I thank the

Census Bureau. I have a great relationship with the Census Bureau. In fact, my dear friend, Tom Mesenbourg, is here today and

we will hear from him later, and I appreciate his presence here.

But this whole idea, you talk about differing kinds of citizenship.

We have always complained about second class, third class, whatever. Well, think of the fact that you have a total of people who

live in the United States, again, as I said, including people who are

not citizens and people who are not here documented. Then you

have another number sort of as a second total, but never really

part of the family. That makes no sense mathematically and, as

you have stated, creates other issues. My belief is that if you are

living under the American flag, if you are covered by the American

Constitution, if you are a citizen or a national, you should be counted in the total number. I thank you.

Thank you, Chairwoman.

Mrs. CHRISTENSEN. Thank you.

I know that Dr. Mills has to leave. I just had one last question

before I dismiss the panel.

You mentioned the kids count survey, which has been very important in the territory in recent years. Could you just give us a

short minute on the importance of the survey and how the current

situation of only the 10 year population on household survey impacts that?

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Mr. MILLS. Kids count survey or databook, as we call it, is designed to be part of the national Kids Count idea, supported largely

by the Annie E. Casey Foundation. But the Foundation does not

provide enough funding to collect the kinds of data that are necessary to produce these indices. So Kids Count, therefore, uses all

VICS data to base some of these indices. But as I said previously,

unless these kinds of data have the imprimatur of the Census Bureau, they are not treated with the degree of validity that Kids

Count would say that they require to have it as part of the national

design. So, in that sense, the Virgin Islands data are not a part of

that wider system and, as a result, we don’t get the understanding

of the well-being of our children in the same way that those from

Kentucky or any other States, for that matter, would have.

Mrs. CHRISTENSEN. The ACS would fix that?

Mr. MILLS. Absolutely would.

Mrs. CHRISTENSEN. OK, thank you.

If there are no further questions, I would like to thank the panel

for their testimony. It has been very helpful. The committee may

have further questions, which we would submit to you in writing

and ask that you respond in turn.

Mr. MILLS. I would be glad to respond.

Mr. CIMADEVILLA. Thank you very much.

Mrs. CHRISTENSEN. Thank you very much.

We will now hear from the witnesses on our second panel. Our

first witness will be Mr. Thomas Mesenbourg, Acting Director of

the U.S. Bureau of the Census. The Deputy Director is the Census

Bureau’s Chief Operating Officer overseeing the day-to-day operations of the Government’s preeminent statistical agency. Mr.

Mesenbourg has served as Associate Director for Economic Programs, a post he has held since August 2005. In that position, he

was responsible for the economic census, the census of governments, and more than 100 monthly, quarterly, and annual surveys.

Mr. Mesenbourg has worked at the Census Bureau since 1972.

Our second witness will be Mr. Nikalao Pula, Director of the Office of Insular Affairs of the Department of the Interior. Mr. Pula

is the first Pacific islander of Samoan ancestry ever to serve as the

Director. As the OIA Director and Acting Deputy Assistant Secretary, Mr. Pula advises the Secretary on operational and administrative matters involving Federal policy in the insular areas. The

office of Insular Affairs is the executive branch’s liaison organization with four of the five principal U.S. insular areas—American

Samoa, Guam, the Commonwealth of the Northern Marianas, and

the U.S. Virgin Islands—and the three freely associated States. Mr.

Pula joined the Department of the Interior in 1993.

It is the policy of the Oversight and Government Reform Committee to swear in all witnesses before they testify. I realize that

you stood the first time, but we are just going to go through it

again, in keeping with the wishes of the chair. So would you please

rise?

[Witnesses sworn.]

Mrs. CHRISTENSEN. Let the record reflect that the witnesses have

answered in the affirmative.

You may be seated. I ask that each witness now give a brief summary of their testimony and keep the summary within 5 minutes,

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please. Your complete written statement has been submitted and

will be included in the hearing record.

Mr. Mesenbourg.

STATEMENTS OF THOMAS MESENBOURG, ACTING DEPUTY DIRECTOR, U.S. BUREAU OF THE CENSUS; AND NIKALAO PULA,

DIRECTOR, OFFICE OF INSULAR AFFAIRS, U.S. DEPARTMENT

OF THE INTERIOR

STATEMENT OF THOMAS MESENBOURG

Mr. MESENBOURG. Thank you. Madam Chairwoman, distinguished subcommittee members, thank you for the opportunity to

discuss the Census Bureau’s programs in the U.S. territories.

There are two major programs that the Census Bureau conducts

on a regular basis in the territories: the economic census and the

decennial census. The economic census is conducted every 5 years,

collecting data for years ending in 2 and 7, and covers the U.S. Virgin Islands, the Commonwealth of the Northern Mariana Islands,

Guam, and American Samoa, and Puerto Rico. The economic census in these areas are very similar to the stateside economic census.

The decennial census is conducted every 10 years. Much of the

content for each island is very similar. However, there are accommodations made depending on the needs of each government. For

the Pacific areas—that is, American Samoa, Guam, and CNMI—

the content is negotiated so that one set of questions will be asked

in all three areas. The content for the U.S. Virgin Islands is developed specifically to meet that government’s needs.

For the 2010 census in the island areas, each housing unit will

be personally visited by an enumerator. In addition, the housing

unit’s address will be listed and its location will be identified on a

census map, allowing the Census Bureau to establish an address

register for each island.

Well, when considering whether or not to conduct new surveys,

it is important first to determine what type of data are needed,

how those data are going to be used, and for what purposes. We

also would consider frequency, data availability and reliability, and

the capability of being able to publish data that meets our confidentiality standards. These are just a few of the considerations

we take into account when determining the design and content of

new collections.

For data collections between censuses, we use statistical samples

to reduce both the reporting burden and to lower cost. Most of our

business surveys are mailed out-mailed back. Many household surveys, however, are conducted by telephone or by enumerator. That,

of course, is considerably more expensive than a mail out-mail back

survey.

Well, what could we do more frequently? We may be able to expand at a relatively modest cost the county business patterns report to include the island areas. This expansion would provide annual data on payroll, number of employees, and the number of establishments or business locations by economic sector in each of the

islands. A more expensive option would be to conduct an annual

economic survey of each of the island areas. These would be a uniVerDate 11-MAY-2000 11:32 Nov 21, 2008 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00076 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 C:\DOCS\44911.TXT KATIE PsN: KATIE
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fied survey similar to the economic census, but with scaled back

content to control costs and improve timeliness.

On the household side, beginning after the 2010 census, a variation of the American community survey might be considered. The

methodology employed would be to repeat the 2010 census methods, but only for a sample of the population, not a full enumeration. One challenge with this approach is developing and maintaining the address frame needed to select a sample in each of the islands. Another challenge, of course, would be building a field infrastructure, including finding office space, hiring employees, and so

forth.

These are some initial thoughts about what we would need to do

to provide more current information on the island areas. We would

be happy to work with the Congress, other Federal agencies, and

the island area governments to better understand their data needs

and to explore ways that we could provide assistance. More detailed discussions are required before we can really develop actual

detailed plans and cost estimates.

This concludes my remarks, and I would be happy to take any

questions. Thank you.

[The prepared statement of Mr. Mesenbourg follows:]

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Mr. CLAY [presiding]. Thank you so much, Mr. Mesenbourg.

Mr. Pula, you may proceed.

STATEMENT OF NIKALAO PULA

Mr. PULA. Mr. Chairman, Madam Chair, and members of the

subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity to testify on the important issue of lack of current and complete information on population, labor force, and economic and social characteristics in the

U.S. territories of American Samoa, Guam, U.S. Virgin Islands,

and the CNMI.

The Office of Insular Affairs is often asked for statistics on the

U.S. territories, but often the information is either dated or does

not exist.

Knowing the value of current information, the Federal Government continuously generates a wide array of information. Best

known of the Federal Government agencies that generate information: the Bureau of Labor Statistics in the Department of Labor

and the Bureau of Census in the Department of Commerce, and

also the Bureau of Economic Analysis, also in the Department of

Commerce.

Unfortunately, the four U.S. territories OIA works with are not

included in some of the most useful work these agencies do. This

was recently highlighted in the U.S. Department of Labor Report

on the impact of minimum wage increases in American Samoa and

CNMI. Labor noted many holes in current data that prevented the

Department from making a full determination of the impact of an

increased minimum wage. Specifically, the Department of Labor

noted ‘‘The Bureau of Labor Statistics does not collect monthly or

other period data describing labor market conditions in either

American Samoa or the CNMI.’’

Another important source of current data according to the report

is the monthly survey of households conducted jointly by the BLS

and Bureau of Census in their current population survey [CPS].

The report notes ‘‘Both surveys have been important sources of

data for research regarding the impact of minimum wage increases

in the United States over the past 50 years. The lack of such data

for American Samoa and CNMI significantly impairs efforts to

measure or to project the impacts of scheduled minimum wage increases for these territories.’’

Apart from conducting decennial census, the Bureau of the Census conducts other surveys. One of the best known and most useful

is the American community survey, which is designed to see how

those communities are changing. The ACS will replace the decennial long form in the future censuses and is a critical element in

the Census Bureau’s re-engineered 2010 census. The four territories we work with are not included in the ACS.

The four territories are also not included in the BEA system of

national income and product accounts, which generates complete

information on total national output. According to information on

the BEA Web site, territories are not treated as domestic output

but, rather, as belonging to the rest of the world. As a result of this

dearth of information, policy decisions often lack the level of data

and analysis that underpin decisions in many other areas of the

United States.

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An additional problem with the lack of territorial involvement in

these data gathering activities is the resulting inability of local statistics offices and staffs to draw on the knowledge and skill pools

found in statistics national community. Working with highly

trained professionals could prove advantageous to the territories

and territorial statistic staffs.

Over the last decade, OIA has given over $5 million to the Bureau of the census and the territories in technical assistance grants

to fill some of the information gaps. This technical assistance, however, has been insufficient to bring the territories to national

standards.

Current and complete information is essential for good decisionmaking, whether in business, government, or households. For this

reason, we believe that there is a significant need to flexibly work

with the territories to integrate them into the national data gathering framework. We stand ready to work with the territories and

agencies responsible for data collection to find alternative ways to

gather necessary information.

Thank you.

[The prepared statement of Mr. Pula follows:]

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Mr. CLAY. Thank you both so much for your testimony. We will

begin the 5-minute questioning.

Let me start with Mr. Mesenbourg. I want to congratulate you,

first, on your recent promotion to Acting Deputy Director of the Bureau, and I look forward to working with you to ensure a complete

and accurate decennial census, and on other censuses, including

surveys that address the specific data needs of the insular areas.

You stated in your testimony the work on the economic and decennial censuses of the island areas are collaborative efforts between the Census Bureau and the local governments. What should

be the first step toward the development of annual surveys that are

tailored to the needs of each island area?

Mr. MESENBOURG. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I think the first

order of business is to ensure that the Census Bureau is clear on

what the data needs are for the island area. We need to be clear

in terms of what data they want to collect, how those data are

going to be used, and for what purposes they are going to serve.

Then more detailed discussions would be involved at what level of

detail do you want to be able to publish the information. If it is a

household survey, do we need below island level detail, do we need

it for towns or election districts, or whatever the appropriate unit

is. For business surveys it would be a similar process. In my written testimony I had suggested that I thought the most cost-effective way to provide annual economic data was to take an approach

similar to the economic census, and that way I think we would be

much more assured that it was meeting the needs of the local area.

So I think really a meeting and a clear understanding of what

the requirements are is the first step.

Mr. CLAY. Wonderful. And who would be the best person for the

governments of the island area to contact and how soon can conversations begin?

Mr. MESENBOURG. OK, in terms of household surveys, we are

working with all of the island areas on implementing the 2010 decennial census, and what we are suggesting is to leverage the work

that we are going to do in 2010 specifically in developing a master

address file in each of the islands and then, after we have done

that, work with the areas to developing a process for maintaining

and updating that address file so we can then do annual surveys.

So the basic approach is do 2010 and then think of an annual

household survey after that.

Mr. CLAY. Any idea of how much money Congress needs to appropriate to create annual surveys with content specifically tailored

to meet the data needs of each island area?

Mr. MESENBOURG. I don’t have a cost estimate right now. Some

will depend on the level of detail. I can tell you that for the economic census—and this also includes Puerto Rico—over a 5-year

period we are spending about $9 million on that data collection.

Now, what is not included in that number are things such as postage and data capture, because we cover those costs as part of the

entire stateside economic census too. We would want to work with

the island governments to make sure that we have their data

needs, and then we would develop a cost estimate. I believe we

would have a bit of time to do that if we are talking, on the houseVerDate 11-MAY-2000 11:32 Nov 21, 2008 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00088 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 C:\DOCS\44911.TXT KATIE PsN: KATIE
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hold side, post-2011 in terms of implementing. But we could certainly get you a cost estimate well before then.

Mr. CLAY. Thank you for your response.

Mr. MESENBOURG. On the business it would just depend exactly

what they would like. Our plan is not to collect the same level of

detail as we collect in the economic census, because if we do we are

going to face some of the same timeliness problems that you heard

about earlier.

Mr. CLAY. Thank you so much for that response.

Mr. Pula, with the Office of Insular Affairs, being the authority

on policy affecting the insular areas, it is reasonable to assume

that you get a lot of requests for data regarding the insular areas.

Can you tell us approximately how many requests you get and the

type of data that is most commonly requested, and how many of

the requests are from government agencies?

Mr. PULA. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We usually get requests

from all seven jurisdictions, the four U.S. territories who we deal

with and also the three freely associated States and all governments. We do not have earmarked money for all these requested

censuses, but every year, because we want to help out with the different surveys, in the last several years we have worked closely

with the Office of International Program Center at the Census Bureau and we provide some money to them when the requests from

the islands come to us to do some of these surveys. We have been

averaging, I would say, the last 5 years between $500,000 and

$700,000, close to $900,000 money from our limited technical assistance pot to help the islands do some of these surveys with the

help of the Census Bureau.

Mr. CLAY. Thank you for that response.

Right now I will go to Mr. Fortun ̃ o for 5 minutes.

Mr. FORTUN ̃ O. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want to thank the

panelists again for their insightful testimony this morning.

First, if I may, I would like to begin by commending Director

Mesenbourg for your 36 years of service at the Bureau. All of us

realize that the hard work you do at the Bureau is very important;

otherwise, we would not be here today seeking to understand and

to improve, certainly, how the Bureau collects and reports data on

the U.S. territories. I have several questions that I would like to

pose to you regarding Puerto Rico in particular, and the other expert on the panel should feel free to add anything, Mr. Pula.

First, I would like to hear, Director Mesenbourg, your take on

Mr. Cimadevilla’s argument, which I find, I will say, quite compelling, that for every Census Bureau table covering the States, Congress should require that the final product include a grand total for

all States, the District of Columbia, and the territories, and perhaps also subtotals for all States, D.C., and the territories, with a

breakdown by area. As Mr. Cimadevilla testified, this would enable

the Federal Government to make policy on the basis of the grand

total, while also keeping a tally of the numbers for States alone for

use for any purposes.

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Actually, if I may, Mr. Chairman, I would like to include in the

record a letter that I received today from AARP supporting, actually, an idea somewhat similar to this, if I may.

Mr. CLAY. Without objection, it will be part of the record.

Mr. FORTUN ̃ O. Thank you.

[The information referred to follows:]

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Mr. FORTUN ̃ O. Do you see any good reason why Congress cannot

or should not require this approach be adopted? And is there anything preventing OMB or the Census Bureau from adopting this

policy in the absence of legislation expressly requiring it to do so?

Mr. MESENBOURG. Thank you. I will answer that. First, let me

answer from the perspective of economic statistics. As you all are

probably aware, we collect detailed statistics on all primary economic sectors, so we have monthly and annual surveys of retail

trade, wholesale trade, manufacturing, services. Something that

people may not understand, our current surveys are designed to

provide national level estimates for the United States, so they exclude Puerto Rico and they exclude the U.S. territories. But that

is done because it significantly—let me just clarify what that

means, actually. So when we select the sample and we go to a firm

that has locations scattered across the United States, say a large

discount department store you might think of, we do not collect

data for each location in our current surveys. Rather, they report

a national level estimate of retail sales that includes all of their operations in the States.

So we do not publish any detailed State level, county level, or

whatever in our current economic statistics programs, with the exception of the County Business Patterns Program. That program is

a bi-product of our business Register. So we do have businesses

that operate in Puerto Rico, and the island areas are included in

our business Register, and we tabulate that information and publish that annually. And Puerto Rico is covered annually in the

County Business Patterns Program. It is not included in the U.S.

total, but the data are separately available.

So this would be a huge undertaking and I think an extremely

expensive undertaking to redesign all of our current surveys, and

that is really the impetus that I suggested a unified survey like the

economic census be targeted to each of the island areas. That way

I think it would better meet their needs and we would be able to

implement such a program.

So just to be clear on the question, we do not have State level

data for almost all of our current economic surveys, so this would

be a huge undertaking, that suggestion.

Mr. FORTUN ̃ O. By the same token, a lot of data that is collected

at the national level excludes the island territories, including Puerto Rico, even when we are talking about population, and, actually,

Mr. Faleomavaega was talking about military service. Puerto Rico

has the second highest rate of military service in the country, and

we do that with pride and courage and valor. Certainly, no one is

thinking about whether it will take a lot of effort for us to actually

serve at such a high level for freedom and democracy as we do

throughout the world.

So do you have any specific thoughts as to how we can, in the

most efficient way, include fully those territories? Certainly, I am

interested in Puerto Rico, which is the largest, but certainly all the

territories in this process.

Mr. MESENBOURG. Well, I don’t have specific proposals related to

including it in the U.S. total. I do have ideas how we could provide

current information on the island areas, and that would be to implement annual economic surveys in each of those island areas and

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publish that data annually. Post-2010, to implement an ACS-like

survey in each of the islands. I am certainly not a constitutional

scholar, so I am not going to offer any opinions related to including

the territories in the total at this point.

Mr. FORTUN ̃ O. Thank you.

Mr. CLAY. Thank you so much, Mr. Fortun ̃ o.

Now Chairwoman Christensen, you are recognized for 5 minutes.

Mrs. CHRISTENSEN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Mesenbourg and Mr. Pula.

Mr. Pula, representing the Department that has oversight for the

territories, is it the position of the Department of the Interior that

the United States has a responsibility to further the social, economic, and political development of the territories that Labor and

Census and all of those departments that conduct surveys ought to

include the territories?

Mr. PULA. Well, since the Department of the Interior is part of

the administration, as well as our folks from Labor and Census, we

speak with the same language. Your question is whether the territories should be included in the information of statistic data——

Mrs. CHRISTENSEN. The ACS, the CES, the CPS, all of that information that is so important to the rest of the United States, should

it not also be compiled for the territories?

Mr. PULA. OK, let me answer it this way. Because of the requests

that come from these jurisdiction areas on an annual basis, from

the Governors writing and asking us for information, it is pretty

apparent to us, our office at OAA and the Department of the Interior, that they have a need. One of the things that we have done

is to try to create the capacity—and like I mentioned earlier, we

worked with the Census Bureau to have a program where the folks

from the island, the Statistics Office can come on an annual basis

and some of the Census Bureau national information. So just to answer your question simply, yes, to the extent that this information

is needed in the areas.

Mrs. CHRISTENSEN. It is needed. I think we could probably establish that it is needed.

Mr. Mesenbourg, I have heard that some of the surveys may be

a variation on what is done in the States or cut back or ACS-like

survey. If it is not exactly what is done in the United States, is it

going to be included when all that data is published? And I am also

seeming to hear that the national data is just the 50 States and

the territories should be separate. I don’t understand that.

Mr. MESENBOURG. Let me talk first of the ACS. What we were

proposing and I used the term ACS-like to provide flexibility to the

territories related to the content. It probably would be quite similar

to the stateside ACS survey, but there may be special needs that

need to be addressed, and that is the reason I used ACS-like in

that.

Mrs. CHRISTENSEN. I am concerned that the delays that Dr. Mills

talks about, when it is not the exact same thing. If we are willing

to give up a little flexibility to get our data published in a timely

manner and be there with everybody else, when everyone is looking

at this data for programs, for funding, for whatever, can we——

Mr. MESENBOURG. OK, I will answer that. If the Census Bureau

conducts this ACS survey in the island areas, it will be official CenVerDate 11-MAY-2000 11:32 Nov 21, 2008 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00093 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 C:\DOCS\44911.TXT KATIE PsN: KATIE
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sus Bureau statistics and we will stand 100 percent behind the statistics. I think it is a different issue whether the island totals

should be included in the U.S. total or should be provided separately and people have the capability of adding it into the total.

And that is not an issue I have a view on at this point.

Mrs. CHRISTENSEN. OK. You did say you are recommending discussions go forward and those kinds of issues can be decided in

those issues.

Mr. Pula, could you explain why OIA canceled the collection of

the data back a few years ago?

Mr. PULA. Basically, we did not——

Mrs. CHRISTENSEN. In the middle of the collection of the data.

Mr. PULA. Of the data for the survey in the Virgin Islands you

mean?

Mrs. CHRISTENSEN. Yes.

Mr. PULA. It was a matter of priority in terms of the money that

we were spending for the surveys in each of the areas. I do not

think we canceled it. We have negotiated with the Census Bureau,

the Office of International Program Center, through an MOU or reimbursable agreement, and some of these surveys they were doing

we had to kind of wait and see where they are in the other areas

because they only have limited people that go to the areas. So we

did not cancel it, we just had to postpone it.

Mrs. CHRISTENSEN. My last question, Mr. Mesenbourg, in the

States you do sampling. In the Virgin Islands, and I assume the

other territories, you have to do 100 percent. Is there any possibility that we could also do sampling instead of doing 100 percent?

Mr. MESENBOURG. Ms. Chairwoman, I certainly do believe there

are possibilities. The reason we cannot use sampling in the 2010

census, for example, is because we haven’t updated and maintained

the address file in between the two censuses. As part of doing the

2010, we will establish an address file for each of the island areas,

and that is what we are suggesting. Working with the islands, we

would look to see if we could use probably area sampling, rather

than a complete enumeration, which will cut costs and also improve the timeliness.

Mrs. CHRISTENSEN. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. CLAY. Thank you so much, Chairwoman.

Mr. Burton, do you have any questions?

Mr. BURTON. First of all, I want to apologize for my tardiness,

so if I ask some questions that sound redundant, forgive me.

Mr. CLAY. We will let you catch up to speed.

Mr. BURTON. You will let me catch up? OK.

Mr. CLAY. Yes, I will let you catch up.

Mr. BURTON. First of all, I was not aware that the collecting of

census data was that much different than it is in the 50 States, but

evidently there is some disparity there. So, real briefly, could you

tell me why that disparity exists and what impact it has on the

people who are living there as far as the delivery of goods and services from the U.S. Government?

Mr. MESENBOURG. Well, I will answer the first part in terms of

what data we do collect and what data we don’t collect for the island areas.

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Mr. BURTON. Well, let me put it this way. Is the data consistent

with the data that you collect from the 50 several States?

Mr. MESENBOURG. The data are consistent that we collect in the

decennial census and the economic census. What we collect in the

island areas is consistent and quite very similar to what we collect

for mainland United States.

Mr. BURTON. Well, why is it that Mr. Fortun ̃ o and others from

the islands—Guam, American Samoa, Puerto Rico—why is it they

have concerns about the problems or the disparities that exist between how people in the 50 States are treated and how they are

in the islands?

Mr. MESENBOURG. Well, the biggest issue is one of frequency. So

under existing programs there are household data available for the

island areas once every 10 years as part of the decennial census,

and that is what we were suggesting——

Mr. BURTON. How does that differ from the 50 States?

Mr. MESENBOURG. The 50 States, it is really an issue of the coverage of the American community survey.

Mr. BURTON. I mean, there is different data collected at different

times in the 50 States as compared to the islands. Why is that?

Mr. MESENBOURG. Well, when we first started the ACS program,

we had no master address files for the island areas, so that was

the original decision point not to cover them.

Mr. BURTON. Is that still the case today?

Mr. MESENBOURG. That is still the case today.

Mr. BURTON. So what you are saying is you don’t have the information that is necessary for you to give the same kind of treatment

as far as this data is concerned as you do in the States.

Mr. MESENBOURG. We don’t have the infrastructure in place to

provide the same——

Mr. BURTON. Well, how do you solve that problem, if you can?

Mr. MESENBOURG. What we were suggesting was to build and

update and maintain an address file for each of the island areas

after the 2010 census, and then implement an ACS survey in each

of the island areas on an annual basis after that.

Mr. BURTON. How long has this been a problem, how many

years?

Mr. MESENBOURG. Well, we have never——

Mr. BURTON. Ad infinitum?

Mr. MESENBOURG. Yes.

Mr. BURTON. Well, if that is the case, why haven’t we tried before now to try to correct that? I mean, it seems to me we have had

a census—I was chairman of this committee for 6 years when we

had the last decennial census. It seems like every 10 years we have

this. Why haven’t we tried to solve this problem with the islands

before? And the reason I ask is because there is a disparity in

goods and services and the way they are treated, and it doesn’t

seem like it should be that way. Let me give you an example.

I went to Guam with the representative from Guam, and they

have an epidemic of diabetes over there, and they didn’t have

enough dialysis machines to take care of the population. They were

running those things 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, and they still

couldn’t take care of the population. We tried to get $8 million to

buy additional dialysis machines, which took us about 3 or 4 years

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to get done. We finally did, but it seems to me that ought to be

something that would be in the normal course of events, that we

would take care of the people who are American citizens, and not

having them being second class citizens, as they were in Guam. So

why does it take so long to get the information that is necessary

to treat them equally?

Mr. MESENBOURG. One would be a function of resources. And if

there is a clear need for this data and the resources are provided,

I think we have suggested a plan that would start addressing this

data gap both on the household side and the economic census side.

Mr. BURTON. Well, see, that is troubling to me because we are

not talking about people who are not citizens. These are citizens of

the United States of America, and for us to say we don’t have the

resources to get this data really kind of troubles me. I know they

are not States and I know they don’t have some of the benefits that

they would have if they were States, but, nevertheless, they are

American citizens, and for us not to give them the same basic

things that we are giving to American citizens in the 50 States

doesn’t make sense to me. And when you say you don’t have the

resources, it seems to me that is something that we should address

immediately, or should have addressed before now. The next 10

years after this decennial census, are we going to be in the same

boat, where we say, hey, we don’t have the resources to take care

of the things necessary to give them the same treatment that we

are the people of the 50 States? These are American citizens, and

we ought to make sure they get the same benefits and equality

that we do up here.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. CLAY. Thank you so much, Mr. Burton.

I recognize Mr. Faleomavaega for 5 minutes.

Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I want to thank both gentlemen for their testimony this morning.

Mr. Mesenbourg, I know this is not a personal reflection on anything in terms of one of our most standing leaders in the Census

Bureau, but I want to share with you a couple of statements made

as part of the statement submitted by our Governor for the record.

This is in reference in dealing with the Census Bureau: ‘‘The Census Bureau trusts the local government to conduct the census and

to uphold the law when collecting information. However, once enumeration is completed and all forms have been sent to the Census

Bureau, the local government is deliberately, deliberately prevented from accessing census details to compile statistical reports

or to conduct detailed analysis and special tabulation.’’ And then

under other conditions, American Samoa is included in the domestic process during the preparation and carrying out of the census

enumeration, but, unfortunately, it is treated under the international program. Can you help me reconcile this action or conduct

on the part of the Census Bureau?

Mr. MESENBOURG. Certainly. Let me address the first point. It

really has to do with the confidentiality that is afforded census

data once we collect it, and what we promise the respondent,

whether household or business, is that we will publish only aggregate data, and we will not identify the individual location of any

business or any household. So once we have collected the individual

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data, whether on a household survey or an economic census survey,

that is considered Title 13 data and the only people that actually

can access that data are Census Bureau employees. So I believe

that is the answer to the questions. Once we have collected all the

data and we have these microdata files, then they are Title 13 data

and we go to great lengths to protect the confidentiality of it.

Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. All right, but isn’t the whole purpose of collecting data and information to help these various territories and

States? Let’s talk about economics I am having a terrible time just

dealing with the issue, as Mr. Pula indicated earlier, about the

minimum wage issue that is now going to cause economic chaos,

as far as I am concerned, with CNMI and my own territory, and

the problem was we couldn’t get proper data and information from

the Bureau of Labor Statistics, Department of Labor, let alone we

don’t even have enough information coming from the Census Bureau. So we are right back at square one.

And I cannot thank my good friend from Indiana for raising the

point. There definitely is a disparity here. If we are willing to do

a complete survey of all these three or four major surveys with the

States—and this is not a negative reflection in any way to a State

like Wyoming, with 522,000 people, how is that different if we are

going to deal with Puerto Rico, with 4.4 million? Why do we have

to have an MOU to deal with the territories? Would you support,

maybe just do a little amendment to include the insular areas with

these three or four major surveys that the Census Bureau conducts?

Mr. MESENBOURG. Well, the Census Bureau serves as the collection agent for the CPS. The Bureau of Labor Statistics actually is

the sponsor of the program. So in terms of covering——

Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. Do you realize—I don’t mean to interrupt

you—we cannot even, the Federal Government and even the U.S.

Congress cannot make a determination what our economic situation is right now not only in American Samoa, but also for CNMI

because of these disparities in statistics both from the Labor Department, as well as from the Census Bureau. What would be your

recommendation to the Congress, given the fact that we are in this

dire straits right now, trying to determine what our economy is?

Mr. MESENBOURG. All right, I don’t think I am in a position to

speak for what the Bureau of Labor Statistics can do one way or

another. We certainly will work with them——

Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. All right, let’s deal with census.

Mr. MESENBOURG. With the census, I think the most effective

thing we could do on the economic side is to move forward with an

annual economic survey of each of the island areas. As I said, our

monthly, quarterly, and annual surveys do not provide any coverage by State, so that would be a huge undertaking to try to redesign those to cover each——

Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. What would be the approximate cost to suggest if the insular areas are included in these three or four major

surveys?

Mr. MESENBOURG. The three or four being CPS——

Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. CIP, ABC, CIPP, whatever names that we

put on this.

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Mr. MESENBOURG. We haven’t developed a cost estimate for what

it would take to do an annual economic survey, but it would be less

than what it is to conduct the economic census. And the economic

census in the four island areas plus Puerto Rico is, as I said, about

$8 million to $9 million over a 5-year cycle. So it would probably

be $2 million or so, maybe less than that, if we were just doing the

island areas.

Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. I realize that, but once you put the thing in

place, then I am sure it would be a much lesser cost than the initial way of installing or organizing.

I am sorry, Mr. Chairman, my time is up.

Mr. CLAY. The gentleman’s time has expired, but thanks for the

line of questions.

Mr. Serrano is recognized for 5 minutes.

Mr. SERRANO. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Mesenbourg, is it still the position, as I brought up before,

of the census folks that the lack of inclusion at every level of the

territories is a constitutional question? Has that been cleared at all

yet, in your opinion?

Mr. MESENBOURG. Well, in my 2 weeks in this job—[laughter]—

I must admit I am uninformed about that, but we can go back and

check. It is my understanding that the apportionment number is

the States. As I mentioned earlier, I am certainly not a constitutional scholar or lawyer.

Mr. SERRANO. No, and I didn’t mean to rely on your 2 weeks, but,

rather, your 30—what is it?

Mr. MESENBOURG. Thirty-six, yes.

Mr. SERRANO. We have both been the same amount of time in

this business. And that is what I meant, what you had heard

throughout the years traditionally has been that it is a constitutional question. Is that still what you keep hearing from other folks

at the Census Bureau?

Mr. MESENBOURG. Well, I believe on the decennial census and on

the household side that may be the question. If we go to the economic side, we have designed all of our current surveys basically,

one of the primary objectives is to provide source data to the Bureau of economic Analysis for calculation of the GDP, and GDP

right now does not include Puerto Rico or the territories. Consequently, since one of the primary purposes is to provide source

data for the U.S. GDP, we have designed our surveys and samples

in such a way that they do not provide any sub-national detail, because it is not needed.

So what that does is permit us, for the service sector, for example, and the economic census stateside, we will mail forms to 2 million business locations. In our annual survey we will collect national level data from 50,000 firms, and on our quarterly survey we

will collect it from 6,000 firms. So, if suddenly, we were required

to provide data by States and territories, those samples would have

to be hugely increased to be able to provide that.

So on the economic side one of the main drivers has been what

kind of data are needed for calculation of quarterly GDP in the

United States.

Mr. SERRANO. Let me just finalize by asking you a semi-related

question. Is the next census form going to ask the same questions

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on race that it did before, in the same way? And I refer you to the

fact—and I have said this at other hearings—my experience in

New York has been that the toughest questions for Puerto Ricans

to fill is what race are you. In fact, I probably admit in public that

I probably fill out my census form incorrectly. I checked off Hispanic, and under Hispanic I checked off Puerto Rican. Then it said

what race are you—Black, White, other. I checked off other. And

when it said which other, I wrote Puerto Rican again. That is how

a lot of folks see us and we see ourselves. So is that staying the

same? Will I be asked to declare one of these days?

Mr. MESENBOURG. I am not clear if we changed the question, but

I know the content has been forwarded to the Congress in early

April, so the content has been set. So whatever the questions are

on those forms are the way that we plan to ask it.

Mr. SERRANO. Thank you. Because Puerto Ricans, as you know,

fall under the all of the above category in one person. [Laughter.]

Thank you so much. And once again, Tom, personally—I am

sorry for the Tom—but we thank you for your service and we note

not the 2-weeks, but the many, many years.

Mr. CLAY. Thank you, Mr. Serrano, for simplifying the census

form for us.

Let me thank both of our witnesses for the testimony today.

I will allow closing statements for any Member who desires,

starting with Mrs. Christensen.

Mrs. CHRISTENSEN. Thank you. I want to again recognize and

thank you, Chairman Clay, for your leadership, your interest, and

your willingness to work with our subcommittee and the territories

on this, as you concede, very important and highly charged issue.

I want to thank both Mr. Pula and Mr. Mesenbourg not only for

your testimony today, but for your service in your respective agencies and to our Government and our country.

I was very pleased with the level of expertise and engagement

from all of our witnesses. It is clear that a problem exists in the

way our fellow Americans living in the U.S. territories are counted.

But it also seems to me that our Federal representatives have a

willingness to further discuss these issues not just for the sake of

talking about them, but for the purpose of resolving them.

I am sure that Chairman Clay would agree that progress can

and should be made, and that both of us would intend to continue

our oversight responsibilities to ensure that we are all moving in

the right direction.

With that, Mr. Chairman, I want to point out that all of the Governors from each of the U.S. territories will likely be on the east

coast in the coming months for the National Governors Association

summer session. I believe that both the Census Bureau and the

Department of the Interior should take advantage of this opportunity to begin those discussions and to start coming to an agreement on how data can begin to be compiled on our islands, and our

subcommittees could help facilitate in this regard if needed.

I want to recognize my ranking member, Mr. Fortun ̃ o, for his

leadership on this issue for the people of Puerto Rico and for really

actually initiating this discussion about census, and for the participation from all of our colleagues, both those representing Guam

and American Samoa, Chairman Serrano, who has really been

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very, very helpful to the territories, and Mr. Burton, thank you for

yours as well.

But, Mr. Chairman, we couldn’t have done it without you. Thank

you very much.

Mr. CLAY. Thank you so much, Mrs. Christensen.

Mr. Fortun ̃ o, you are recognized.

Mr. FORTUN ̃ O. Chairman Clay and Chairwoman Christensen, I

want not thank you both for your leadership in this and for holding

this hearing. I want to thank the panelists as well for their insight,

and all of my colleagues for our interest.

Certainly, it is obvious, and I echo the words stated earlier today

by my dear friend from New York, Congressman Serrano. The

founding fathers never intended for territories to last 100, 110

years in limbo, so this has repercussions on everything. This is just

one of many other repercussions that we, as a Nation, are confronting, and one way or another we will have to face them. I hope we

do it sooner, rather than later.

But, in the meantime, we have to address the needs of the inhabitants of those territories, and certainly in the case of Puerto Rico

and the U.S. Virgin Islands and some of the others, we are talking

about U.S. citizens that proudly serve in our military and are part

and parcel of the greatest Nation on Earth. So we welcome your

insights and your input in trying to make sure that we address this

unintended consequence of us having these territories that we were

not supposed to have for so long. Thank you again.

Mr. CLAY. Thank you so much.

Mr. Faleomavaega, you are recognized for closing.

Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. Mr. Chairman, not wanting to be repetitious, but I do want to thank again the distinguished chairwoman

of our Insular Affairs Subcommittee, Mrs. Christensen, and our

ranking member from Puerto Rico, Mr. Fortun ̃ o. If this is really not

truly a spirit of bipartisanship, where we always try to work together, and to thank you, Mr. Chairman, for your initiative and

your leadership in joining together with our subcommittee to conduct this hearing that is so important for the insular areas.

I also want to commend my good friend from Indiana, Mr. Burton, for his leadership and the great help that he has given in allowing the insular areas to also be recipients of some of the programs dealing with Medicare and Medicaid. We have not forgotten

that, Mr. Burton, and we truly want to thank you for thinking

about us. Hopefully, the disparities that we now have come to discover about how the insular areas are being treated both by the

Census Bureau, as well as the Department of Labor, that we

should do something to remedy this situation.

Again, Mr. Chairman, I thank you. And I do want to thank our

excellent witnesses. I look forward to working with them in the

coming months on this issue. Thank you again.

Mr. CLAY. Thank you very much.

Mr. Burton.

Mr. BURTON. I will be very brief. I know that you are one of the

leadership, you are the leaders in the census area. I wish you

would carry the message back from all of us, those who are in the

islands, but in the 50 several States as well, that we really think

all American citizens, regardless of where they are, ought to be

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treated the same; and wherever there is a disparity, it ought to be

corrected as quickly as possible. Thank you.

Mr. Clay. Thank you, Mr. Burton.

Mr. Serrano, any closing remarks?

Mr. SERRANO. Very briefly. Just to thank the leadership of the

committee for allowing me to sit here today. I really appreciate it.

And to let the folks in front of us know that it is not the Census

Bureau, it is American society in general. For instance, and this

will really go down in history as a profound statement, are you

aware that major league baseball lists people born in the Bronx

with Puerto Rican parents as native-born Americans, and their

cousin, who was signed in Puerto Rico, as foreign baseball players?

A couple of years ago there was a study done of foreign-born Members of Congress and I was listed. So there goes a bigger issue.

Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. Would the gentleman yield?

Mr. SERRANO. I yield.

Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. Is he aware that American Samoa produces

more NFL players than any other State or territory in the United

States? [Laughter.]

Mr. SERRANO. I am aware of that, but you guys can’t hit a curve

ball. [Laughter.]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. CLAY. On behalf of myself and my colleagues, I would like

to thank all of our witnesses for their testimony today and thank

some of the colleagues here for enlightening us on major league

baseball and football. I appreciate that.

On a serious note, it is my hope that the parties here can immediately begin to interact and begin discussions toward solving these

problems. If this subcommittee can help facilitate action in any

manner, please get in touch with me or my staff. And, again, thank

all of the Members for participating today.

That concludes this hearing.

[Whereupon, at 12:15 p.m., the subcommittees were adjourned.]

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