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CHILD SOLDIERS ACCOUNTABILITY ACT OF 2007 

HEARING 

BEFORE THE

SUBCOMMITTEE ON CRIME, TERRORISM, 

AND HOMELAND SECURITY 

OF THE

COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY 

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 

ONE HUNDRED TENTH CONGRESS 

SECOND SESSION 

ON

S. 2135 

APRIL 8, 2008 

Serial No. 110–140 

Printed for the use of the Committee on the Judiciary 

( 

Available via the World Wide Web: http://judiciary.house.gov 

(II) 

COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY 

JOHN CONYERS, JR., Michigan, Chairman 

HOWARD L. BERMAN, California 

RICK BOUCHER, Virginia 

JERROLD NADLER, New York 

ROBERT C. ‘‘BOBBY’’ SCOTT, Virginia 

MELVIN L. WATT, North Carolina 

ZOE LOFGREN, California 

SHEILA JACKSON LEE, Texas 

MAXINE WATERS, California 

WILLIAM D. DELAHUNT, Massachusetts 

ROBERT WEXLER, Florida 

LINDA T. SA ́ NCHEZ, California 

STEVE COHEN, Tennessee 

HANK JOHNSON, Georgia 

BETTY SUTTON, Ohio 

LUIS V. GUTIERREZ, Illinois 

BRAD SHERMAN, California 

TAMMY BALDWIN, Wisconsin 

ANTHONY D. WEINER, New York 

ADAM B. SCHIFF, California 

ARTUR DAVIS, Alabama 

DEBBIE WASSERMAN SCHULTZ, Florida 

KEITH ELLISON, Minnesota 

LAMAR SMITH, Texas 

F. JAMES SENSENBRENNER, JR., 

Wisconsin 

HOWARD COBLE, North Carolina 

ELTON GALLEGLY, California 

BOB GOODLATTE, Virginia 

STEVE CHABOT, Ohio 

DANIEL E. LUNGREN, California 

CHRIS CANNON, Utah 

RIC KELLER, Florida 

DARRELL ISSA, California 

MIKE PENCE, Indiana 

J. RANDY FORBES, Virginia 

STEVE KING, Iowa 

TOM FEENEY, Florida 

TRENT FRANKS, Arizona 

LOUIE GOHMERT, Texas 

JIM JORDAN, Ohio 

PERRY APELBAUM, Staff Director and Chief Counsel 

SEAN MCLAUGHLIN, Minority Chief of Staff and General Counsel 

SUBCOMMITTEE ON CRIME, TERRORISM, AND HOMELAND SECURITY

ROBERT C. ‘‘BOBBY’’ SCOTT, Virginia, Chairman 

MAXINE WATERS, California 

WILLIAM D. DELAHUNT, Massachusetts 

JERROLD NADLER, New York 

HANK JOHNSON, Georgia 

ANTHONY D. WEINER, New York 

SHEILA JACKSON LEE, Texas 

ARTUR DAVIS, Alabama 

TAMMY BALDWIN, Wisconsin 

BETTY SUTTON, Ohio 

LOUIE GOHMERT, Texas 

J. RANDY FORBES, Virginia 

F. JAMES SENSENBRENNER, JR., 

Wisconsin 

HOWARD COBLE, North Carolina 

STEVE CHABOT, Ohio 

DANIEL E. LUNGREN, California 

BOBBY VASSAR, Chief Counsel 

CAROLINE LYNCH, Minority Counsel 

(III) 

C O N T E N T S 

APRIL 8, 2008 

Page 

THE BILL 

S. 2135, the ‘‘Child Soldiers Accountability Act of 2007 ....................................... 0 

OPENING STATEMENT 

The Honorable Robert C. ‘‘Bobby’’ Scott, a Representative in Congress from 

the State of Virginia, and Chairman, Subcommittee on Crime, Terrorism, 

and Homeland Security ....................................................................................... 1 

The Honorable Louie Gohmert, a Representative in Congress from the State 

of Texas, and Ranking Member, Subcommittee on Crime, Terrorism, and 

Homeland Security ............................................................................................... 8 

The Honorable John Conyers, Jr., a Representative in Congress from the 

State of Michigan, and Chairman, Committee on the Judiciary ..................... 9 

WITNESSES 

Ms. Grace Akallo, former child soldier, advocate for child soldiers, Worcester, 

MA 

Oral Testimony ..................................................................................................... 11 

Prepared Statement ............................................................................................. 13 

Mr. Tom Malinowski, Washington Advocacy Director, Human Rights Watch, 

Washington, DC 

Oral Testimony ..................................................................................................... 13 

Prepared Statement ............................................................................................. 16 

Mr. David Crane, Syracuse University College of Law, Syracuse, NY 

Oral Testimony ..................................................................................................... 21 

Prepared Statement ............................................................................................. 23 

LETTERS, STATEMENTS, ETC., SUBMITTED FOR THE HEARING 

Prepared Statement of the Honorable John Conyers, Jr., a Representative 

in Congress from the State of Michigan, and Chairman, Committee on 

the Judiciary ......................................................................................................... 10 

APPENDIX 

Material Submitted for the Hearing Record .......................................................... 53 

(1) 

CHILD SOLDIERS ACCOUNTABILITY ACT 

OF 2007 

TUESDAY, APRIL 8, 2008 

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,

SUBCOMMITTEE ON CRIME, TERRORISM,

AND HOMELAND SECURITY

COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY, 

Washington, DC. 

The Subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 4:10 p.m., in room 

2141, Rayburn House Office Building, the Honorable Robert C. 

(Bobby) Scott (Chairan of the Subcommittee) presiding. 

Present: Representatives Scott, Conyers, and Gohmert. 

Staff Present: Ameer Gopalani, Majority Counsel; Veronica 

Eligan, Majority Professional Staff Member; Kelsey Whitlock, Minority Staff Assistant; and Kimani Little, Minority Counsel. 

Mr. SCOTT. The Subcommittee will come to order. 

And I welcome you to the hearing before the Subcommittee on 

Crime, Terrorism, and Homeland Security on S. 2135, the ‘‘Child 

Soldiers Accountability Act of 2007.’’ 

[The bill, S. 2135, follows:] 

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Mr. SCOTT. In at least 18 countries around the world, children 

are direct participants in war. Many of these child soldiers, some 

as young as 8 years old, are abducted or recruited by force and 

often are compelled to follow orders under harsh duress. Contrary 

to popular belief, in many conflicts, girls make up more than 30 

percent of child soldiers and are often raped. Once recruited, these 

children, boys and girls, participate in all forms of combat, even 

wielding AK-47s and M-16s, as portrayed in the media. 

The prevalence and nature of the child soldier problem is not 

going away any time soon. It continues to plague the international 

community. In Uganda, a rebel group has abducted at least 20,000 

children and has forced them to work as laborers, soldiers and sex 

slaves. We hear about ongoing persecution and atrocities in Burma, 

but what has escaped media attention is the use of child soldiers 

there. The Government has recruited up to 70,000 children—more 

than any other country in the world. 

There is a clear legal prohibition on recruiting and using child 

soldiers. Over 110 countries, including the United States, have ratified the Optional Protocol to the Convention on Rights of the Child, 

which prohibits recruitment and use of child soldiers under the age 

of 18. But individual recruiters continue to operate with impunity, 

violating their countries’ policies and treaty obligations. 

So we must ask ourselves why this so. Is it a failure of the law 

or of will or both? This hearing will probe ways in which we may, 

as a country, contribute to prevention and punishment of recruiting 

and using child soldiers. 

Recruiting and using child soldiers does not now violate the 

United States Criminal Code. To this end, Senator Durbin and 

Senator Coburn introduced the Child Soldiers Accountability Act, 

legislation designed to amend title 18 of the U.S. Code to create a 

criminal provision aimed at those who recruit or conscript children 

under the age of 15 into armed conflict. The bill will establish 

criminal penalties up to 20 years in prison and up to life imprisonment if death results from the crime. 

Finally, the bill would extend U.S. jurisdiction to perpetrators of 

the crime who are present in the United States, regardless of their 

nationality and regardless of where the crime takes place, so that 

those who commit these crimes cannot use this country as a safe 

haven from prosecution. This type of jurisdiction exists for similar 

crimes, such as laws against torture and genocide, which allow for 

extraterritorial jurisdiction for crimes committed outside of the 

United States. 

We overwhelmingly passed the Genocide Accountability Act last 

year to end the immunity gap in the genocide law. We should explore doing the same for those who maliciously recruit and use innocent children in warfare. 

With that said, it is my pleasure to recognize the Ranking Member of the Subcommittee, the gentleman from Texas, Mr. Gohmert. 

Mr. GOHMERT. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I do want to thank 

you for scheduling this hearing. This is an atrocious practice that 

has been carried out in countries around the world. And we are 

honored to welcome a distinguished panel of witnesses to share 

their views on this timely issue. 

9 

Children are currently used as soldiers apparently in over 20 

countries. An estimated 200,000 to 300,000 children are used as 

soldiers for rebel groups, militias and government armed forces. 

The individuals who recruit children do so because children are 

physically vulnerable and easily intimidated. Many children are recruited by force and often compelled to follow orders under threat 

of death. 

When faced with issues such as combatting the recruitment of 

child soldiers, many in Congress are interested in enacting legislation that attempts to address the problem. I believe the Committee 

has good intentions in addressing this issue. 

Our colleagues in the Senate have already passed S. 2135, the 

‘‘Child Soldiers Accountability Act of 2007.’’ The Child Soldiers Accountability Act makes it a Federal crime to recruit or use child 

soldiers in an armed conflict. The bill also gives the Government 

the authority to deport or deny admission to any individual who recruited or used children or a child as a soldier under the age of 15. 

Advocates for this bill state that it sends a message to the world 

that the United States does not condone the use of child soldiers. 

They also state this bill ensures that our soldiers will not serve as 

a sanctuary for human rights violators. 

However, I wonder if adding another statute to the Federal 

Criminal Code is the best way for this Committee and ultimately 

this Congress to combat the use of child soldiers. To date, there 

have only been a total of 14 prosecutions involving a charge of recruiting child soldiers worldwide. All 14 cases have been held in 

international war crimes tribunals. None of the 14 defendants were 

American. None of the conduct that led to the 14 prosecutions occurred on American soil. 

These facts lead me to wonder if a child soldier recruitment case 

would ever be brought in a U.S. Federal Court. It may be prudent 

for Congress to consider other ways to combat the use of child soldiers, but I remain interested in hearing from our witnesses on this 

issue. 

Congress should take action to pressure violating countries to 

end this practice. Another possibility is to deny foreign assistance 

to nations or groups that use child soldiers. I believe there are a 

variety of options to be considered that may be better than adding 

another statute to the Federal Code. But again, I understand the 

position that the United States needs to set an example, and so I 

remain interested to hear your testimony here today. 

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back. 

Mr. SCOTT. Thank you. 

The Chairman of the full Committee, the gentleman from Michigan, Mr. Conyers. 

Mr. CONYERS. Thank you, Chairman Scott, Judge Gohmert. 

This is important. This is one of the few bills that are self-descriptive: to prohibit the recruitment or use of child soldiers; to designate persons who recruit or use child soldiers as inadmissible 

aliens; to allow the deportation of persons who recruit or use child 

soldiers. 

So what that means is that anybody that has done that and 

comes to this country is still subject to prosecution. And it is a 

very, I think, excellent step forward in this grisly and inhumane 

10 

practice in which some quarter of a million or more children are 

exploited each day in state-run armies, in paramilitaries and in 

guerilla groups around the world. They are soldiers, they are 

human mine detectors, they are sex slaves, they are porters. And 

they suffer, being in their vulnerable position, a higher mortality 

rate. They are more prone to disease. Their injuries in combat situations are always higher than adults. 

And so we feel that this a very important step forward to help 

in every way. As Judge Gohmert suggests, there may be other additional steps that we may take. And it is to that end that I commend the Chairman and the Ranking Member for these hearings. 

And I ask unanimous consent that my statement be included in 

the record. 

Mr. SCOTT. Thank you. Without objection, so ordered. 

[The prepared statement of Mr. Conyers follows:] 

PREPARED STATEMENT OF THE HONORABLE JOHN CONYERS, JR., A REPRESENTATIVE

IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF MICHIGAN, AND CHAIRMAN, COMMITTEE ON THE

JUDICIARY

The use of child soldiers has been reported in at least 21 conflicts around the 

world since 2001, including conflicts in Colombia, Uganda, the Democratic Republic 

of Congo, and Sierra Leone. It’s estimated that up to 250,000 children are currently 

serving as soldiers or in some combat support capacity. 

As you might imagine, the lives of these youngsters are constantly in danger as 

a result of their forced labor as combatants, porters, human mine detectors, and sex 

slaves. Their precious childhoods are permanently scarred by such experiences—experiences we would not wish to endure, at any age. 

The ‘‘Child Soldiers Accountability Act’’ seeks to deter this horrible practice by 

taking several important steps to end the use of child soldiers. 

First, the bill makes it a federal crime to recruit or to actually use child soldiers, 

under the age of 15, in hostilities. The concept of individual criminal responsibility 

in this area is supported worldwide. The United States is a party to several treaties, 

including the Convention on the Rights of the Child, that prohibit this practice. The 

bill imposes penalties of 20 years to life in prison for this heinous crime. 

Second, the bill facilitates the swift prosecution of perpetrators, regardless of 

where the crime was committed. Last fall we passed the William Wilberforce modern anti-slavery bill, which provided the State Department international aid and 

monitoring mechanisms to combat the use of child soldiers. 

But fighting this heinous crime overseas is not enough. This bill brings the power 

of the Justice Department to bear, in recognition that this is an offense against 

international law that every country has a responsibility to prosecute when it is discovered, just like torture and slavery. 

In fact, the House recently passed a bill, subsequently enacted into law, that 

would authorize genocide prosecutions against those found present in the United 

States who committed genocide abroad. We did this to avoid a situation where perpetrators of genocide could reside in the United States as a safe haven from prosecution. Similarly, we should not allow those who recruit or use child soldiers to find 

a safe haven in our Nation. 

Third, this Act will send a forceful message that child soldier recruiters will be 

prosecuted. And, for the future, it will be a forceful deterrent against the abuse of 

innocent children around the world. 

The United States has been a key participant in global law enforcement efforts 

against genocide, war crimes, and other crimes against humanity. By supporting the 

‘‘Child Soldiers Accountability Act,’’ we extend these critical efforts into punishing 

and deterring the use of child combatants. 

Mr. SCOTT. We have a distinguished panel of witnesses here to 

help us consider the important issues before us. 

Our first witness will be Grace Akallo, who is a graduate of Gordon College with a degree in communications and has worked for 

World Vision on behalf of children worldwide. She was abducted by 

Ugandan rebels at the age of 15 and dragged into Sudan. She witVerDate Aug 31 2005 11:08 Dec 17, 2008 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00014 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6601 H:\WORK\CRIME\040808\41697.000 HJUD1 PsN: 41697
11 

nessed numerous atrocities committed by the rebels. And although 

she witnessed the murder of those who attempted to escape, she 

managed a heroic escape back home. She is now internationally renowned as a spokesman and one who has testified before the 

House Committee on Foreign Affairs. She has also appeared on the 

‘‘Oprah’’ television show. She is the author of ‘‘Girl Soldier: A Story 

of Hope for Northern Ugandan Children.’’ 

Our next witness after that will be Tom Malinowski, who has 

served as the Washington advocacy director for Human Rights 

Watch since 2001. He is responsible for the organization’s overall 

advocacy effort. Prior to joining Human Rights Watch, he served as 

a special assistant to President Bill Clinton and as a senior director 

of foreign-policy speechwriting at the National Security Council. He 

holds degrees in political science from the University of California 

at Berkeley and Oxford University. 

And our final witness will be Professor David M. Crane, appointed as a professor of practice at Syracuse University College of 

Law in the summer of 2006. From 2002 to 2005, he was the chief 

prosecutor of the Special Court for Sierra Leone in an international 

war crimes tribunal and was appointed to that position by Secretary General of the United Nations Kofi Annan. He has served 

in public service for over 30 years in various capacities, such as 

senior inspector general at the Department of Defense and the assistant general counsel of Defense Intelligence Agency. 

So we begin our testimony with Ms. Akallo. Your entire written 

statement will be made part of the record. We would ask you to 

summarize your statement in 5 minutes or less. And there is a 

lighting device at the table which will go from green to yellow 

when there is 1 minute left and to red when the 5 minutes are up. 

Ms. Akallo? 

TESTIMONY OF GRACE AKALLO, FORMER CHILD SOLDIER, 

ADVOCATE FOR CHILD SOLDIERS, WORCESTER, MA 

Ms. AKALLO. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Members of the Subcommittee, for allowing me to testify before you today on behalf of 

many of the children who are being brutally forced to become soldiers and killers. Your concern on the issue of child soldiers is very 

vital for the children who have suffered and continue to suffer 

around the world. 

On the night of October 9, 1996, the Lord’s Resistance Army, 

rebels fighting the Government of Uganda, dashed into my school 

dormitory. Some of those rebels were younger than me; I was 15 

years old. Within an hour, the rebels tied up girls in my dorm and 

forced 139 of us into the cold night. It was pricking cold. It felt 

unreal. No stars shown. Dawn was far off. No moon lit our way, 

only dark clouds announcing our fate. 

Our silent fear had come true. Nothing could prepare us for it. 

For 20 years, war has been no stranger among us. Our capture 

could have happened on any other day. But this particular day was 

a day of celebration and singing in my country—such irony—for 

October 9th was our celebration of Uganda’s independence. That 

night, led like slaves, we were taken to a life of torment. We left 

our independence behind. 

12 

We moved the whole night. Sister Rachelle, the deputy headmistress of Saint Mary’s College in Aboke, who had hidden behind 

the banana plantation during our capture, tracked our footprints 

and caught up with us. Sister Rachelle, eyes swollen with grief, 

walked by our side for the whole day, pleading with the rebel commander for our release. 109 were released, and 30 of us were kept. 

And some of us were never to come back to see our homeland and 

feel the warmth of our parents’ love again, never to see the rise 

and setting of the sun. 

We were taught to dismantle, clean and assemble the gun. We 

were taught to kill, abduct and loot people’s property. Many of 

these abducted children who could not walk were killed, and those 

who tried to escape were brutally killed in front of me and the others. Five of my friends were killed, and two are still missing. I have 

seen heads smashed. I have seen people beaten until their sockets 

swallow their eyes. I have seen children turn into monsters against 

their will. I have survived being buried alive. 

Mr. Chairman, the recruitment and forceable abduction of children into the army continues today because their voices are never 

heard. We have failed to see their tears. The day I was abducted, 

the world stood still, and that is what every child forced to become 

a child soldier faces. It is beyond fear, Mr. Chairman. 

I am not here to evoke emotions without action but to plead with 

you, Mr. Chairman and Members of the Subcommittee, to make the 

Child Soldiers Accountability Act become law. The perpetrators of 

child-soldiering crime must be held accountable. They should be 

brought to justice everywhere in the world. It pains my heart when 

the perpetrators are given safe haven here in the United States 

and other parts of the world or given amnesty. In some countries 

where some of the perpetrators have been given amnesty, they live 

like kings, yet their victims suffer injustices. 

On November 20, 1989, the United Nations approved a Convention on the Rights of the Child. And article 35 provides the right 

to protection from being abducted, sold or trafficked. Article 36 provides the right to protection from all other forms of exploitation. 

And article 38 provides the right, if below 15 years of age, not to 

be recruited into the armed forces nor engaged in direct hostility. 

Mr. Chairman, this has not been obeyed by numerous countries 

that still abduct, recruit and exploit children because they face no 

consequence for their action. Making the Child Soldiers Accountability Act become law would send a strong message to those involved now and those planning in the future to recruit and abduct 

children below 15 years of age into armed forces. 

Mr. Chairman and Members of the Subcommittee, I thank you 

for the opportunity to testify today and argue to continue to be 

leaders in the protection of children around the world. The enactment of the Child Soldiers Accountability Act will send a signal to 

those country’s armies and state and nonstate actors who intend to 

arm and threaten the life of children—children who need education 

opportunities and plowshares, not swords, thrust in their arms. 

I will be happy to answer questions about my experience as a 

child abducted into soldiering and my quest now to speak on behalf 

of those gone, forgotten and now bearing arms against their will. 

[The prepared statement of Ms. Akallo follows:] 

13 

PREPARED STATEMENT OF GRACE AKALLO

Thank you Mr. Chairman and members of the subcommittee for allowing me testify before you today on behave of many of the children who are being brutally 

forced to become soldiers and killers. Your concern on the child soldiers is very vital 

for the children who have suffered and still suffering. On night of October 9, 1996 

the lord’s resistance army, rebels to the government of Uganda, dashed into my dormitory. And Some rebels were younger than me, then 15 years old. Within an hour 

the rebels tied up girls in my dormitory, and forced 139 girls into the cold night. 

It was pricking cold. It felt unreal. No stars shone. Dawn was far off. No moon lit 

our way. Only dark clouds announcing our fate. Our silent fear had come true; nothing could prepare me for it. For 20 years, war has been no stranger amongst us. 

Our capture could have happened on any other day. But this particular day of celebration and singing in my country? Such irony. For October 9, 1996, was our independence. That night, led like slaves, we were taken to the life of torment. We left 

our independence behind. We moved the whole night. Sister Rachelle, the deputy 

headmistress who had hidden behind the banana plantation, tracked our footprints 

and caught up with us. Sister Rachelle, swollen with grief, walked by our side for 

the whole day pleading with the commander for our release. 109 were released and 

the 30 of us were kept behind and some of us were never to come back to our homeland, and feel the warmth our parents’ love again, never to see the rise and setting 

of the sun again. We were taught to dismantle clean and assembled the gun. We 

taught to kill abduct and loot people property. Many of the kids who could not walk 

were killed and those who tried to escape were brutally killed in front of the others. 

Five of my friends were killed and two are still missing. 

I have seen heads smashed. I have seen people beaten until their sockets swallow 

their eyes. I have seen children turned into monsters against their will. I have survived being buried alive. 

Dear Mr. Chairman, the recruitment and forcible abduction of children into the 

army continues, because their voices are never heard, we have failed to see their 

tears. The day I was abducted, the world stood still and that is what every child 

forced to become child a soldiers encounters, it is beyond fear Mr. Chairman. 

I am not here to evoke emotions without action, but to plead with you Mr. Chairman and members of the subcommittee to make child soldier accountability act became law. The perpetrators of child soldiering crime must be hold accountable. They 

should be brought to justice anywhere in the world. It pains my heart when the perpetrators are given safe havens here in the United States and others parts of the 

world or given amnesty as in the case in country where some of the perpetrators 

have been given Amnesty, they live like kings yet the victims continue to suffer injustices. 

On November 20th, 1989 the United Nations approved the Convention on the 

right of the child and in article 35 states; the right to protection from being abducted, sold, or trafficked. 36 states; the right to protection from all other forms of 

exploitation and 38 states; the right, if below 15 years of age not to be recruited 

into the armed forces nor engage in direct hostilities. Mr. Chairman this has not 

been obeyed by some countries that still abduct, recruit and exploit children, because they do not face any consequences of their action. By making the Child soldier 

accountability act 2007 become law, it would send a strong massage to those involved now and those planning in the future to recruitment and abduct children 

below 15 years of age into armed forces. 

Mr. Chairman and the members of the Subcommittee, I believe that as you decide 

on this piece of legislation whether to adopt it or not, you would be thinking of own 

your family, your children, if they were the once being forced to become soldiers 

what would do, what would want people do for you and your family. 

Thank you Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. SCOTT. Thank you very much. Thank you. 

Mr. Malinowski? 

TESTIMONY OF TOM MALINOWSKI, WASHINGTON ADVOCACY 

DIRECTOR, HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH, WASHINGTON, DC 

Mr. MALINOWSKI. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Members, for having us here and for looking at this very, very important issue. 

Children are recruited to serve and to fight in armed conflict in 

at least 18 countries around the world. Human Rights Watch, my 

organization, has investigated the use of kids in armed conflict in 

14 

Colombia, where they are used by both paramilitary groups and 

left-wing rebels; in northern Uganda, where Grace is from; in Sri 

Lanka, where both sides in the civil war use children; in Burma, 

Somalia, Rwanda, Liberia. The list unfortunately goes on and on. 

No one knows the exact number of child soldiers in the world, 

but the U.N. estimates there may be as many as a quarter-million 

serving in conditions of armed conflict worldwide. 

Children are recruited because they are vulnerable, because they 

are easily intimidated, because they make obedient soldiers. Many 

are recruited by force, like Grace was. Others join out of desperation, as their communities break down, as they are separated from 

their families, driven from their homes, left with no opportunities, 

no one to care for them or to protect them. But regardless of how 

they are recruited, child soldiers are denied a childhood, and they 

are often subjected to horrific violence. 

How do we fight this problem? There is no magical solution. But 

what we can do is what we have done for generations in trying to 

curb the worst, most inhumane excesses of war: We can try to set 

a standard, and then we can try to enforce that standard, until a 

practice that still appears normal in many parts of the world begins to be seen as wrong, subject to punishment and ultimately, we 

hope, unthinkable. 

Now, we have already gone a long way toward setting a global 

standard that you can’t recruit kids for war. The recruitment and 

participation in hostilities of children under 15 was first prohibited 

in 1977 by the additional protocols to the Geneva Conventions. It 

is recognized as a war crime now by the International Criminal 

Court. We now have a treaty, which the United States has ratified, 

forbidding recruitment of children under 18 or their use in hostilities. And that has been ratified by 120 countries, including by 

us. 

The challenge we face is enforcing these norms, for while many 

governments and even nonstate armed groups have policies on 

paper stating that their minimum age of recruitment is 18, recruiters who actually violate those policies are rarely held accountable. 

Now, a big recent advance has come with the Special Court for 

Sierra Leone, which David Crane will talk about and which receives, as you know, strong financial support from the United 

States. The Special Court has begun to prosecute and to convict 

people who recruited child soldiers in that country’s brutal civil 

war, including Charles Taylor. 

The International Criminal Court recently took a case involving 

a defendant who is accused of conscripting children. And as these 

trials proceed, as convictions are handed down, we hope that child 

recruiters get the message that they are going to be held accountable for this kind of behavior. And that is the way to achieve deterrence. 

Now, you mentioned, Mr. Gohmert, that thus far it has been 

mostly the international courts that have taken these kinds of 

cases. And that is true, but that is precisely because very few countries have criminalized the practice of recruiting and using child 

soldiers in their national criminal codes. National courts in most 

countries simply can’t do this yet. But we need them to, because 

the international courts have very limited jurisdiction, only for a 

15 

small number of countries, like Sierra Leone or cases that the ICC 

may take, which are only the most extraordinary ones. Here in the 

United States, our code doesn’t address the issue. So if one of 

Grace’s tormenters were to come to the United States, or any number of people like that, our courts would not be able to act. They 

would be able to take safe haven here. 

Now, that is why we support the Child Soldiers Accountability 

Act. We think it would send a strong message to child recruiters 

around the world that they can’t find safe haven in the United 

States. It would enable us to prosecute people who might try to recruit kids from the United States to fight in foreign conflicts. And 

that is not unthinkable. In the late 1990’s, for example, the 

Kurdistan Workers Party recruited school-children in Europe to 

serve in PKK forces in southeastern Turkey. And it would set an 

example for other countries around the world that would also like 

to adopt similar laws. And I believe the Justice Department would 

use this law. We can perhaps discuss that later. 

We also have precedent for this kind of legislation in existing 

laws. The Chairman mentioned, I believe, the U.S. Code already 

makes it a crime for torture to be committed abroad, irrespective 

of the nationality of the victim or alleged offender. The Senate has 

passed the Genocide Accountability Act, which allows us to prosecute non-U.S. nationals for acts of genocide. And these kinds of 

laws have proven useful in real-life cases in the past. 

So we are encouraged to see the bill has passed the Senate. We 

are encouraged by the strong bipartisan support; there is no divide 

in this Congress or in this country about preventing the exploitation of children. And we do hope that the Subcommittee will act 

favorably and take this up so it can quickly become law. 

Thank you very much. 

[The prepared statement of Mr. Malinowski follows:] 

16 

PREPARED STATEMENT OF TOM MALINOWSKI


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Mr. SCOTT. Professor Crane? 

TESTIMONY OF DAVID CRANE, SYRACUSE UNIVERSITY 

COLLEGE OF LAW, SYRACUSE, NY 

Mr. CRANE. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you for this 

opportunity to address this Committee on what I feel to be an important international issue that impacts our country and its security, and that is the scourge of children used as soldiers in armed 

conflict. 

For the first time in history, those who bear the greatest responsibility for war crimes, crimes against humanity and other serious 

violations of international humanitarian law that took place during 

recent wars have been charged with the use of child soldiers under 

the age of 15 into an armed force. 

The use of children in armed conflict is an age-old issue, of 

course. Modern international norms, however, have identified and 

outlawed their use. International tribunals, such as the Special 

Court for Sierra Leone, of which I was the founding chief prosecutor, are now on the cutting edge of international criminal law 

and holding accountable those warlords, commanders and politicians who turn to children, some as young as the age of 6 years 

old, to carry out orders that, in some cases, result in war crimes 

and crimes against humanity. Only in the past 10 years has the 

international community begun to grapple with this international 

problem. 

A favorite tactic to induce children to join their force was for the 

rebels to move in and surround the village in Sierra Leone. The 

children were made to kill their parents and then were driven into 

the bush and forced to serve as soldiers, in many instances for 

years. The numbers are not fully known, but it was in the thousands. These children, ranging from 6 to 18 years of age, roamed 

the battlefields, hopped up on cocaine or marijuana, destroying 

their own country. Over time, the various warring factions became 

their home and their families. Many forgot their real names or 

even where they came from. 

All sides to the conflict in Sierra Leone used children. When that 

horrific conflict staggered to its bloody conclusion in 2002, just 

shortly before my arrival in country, an entire nation lay in ruins. 

These child fighters found themselves with no families, little to no 

education, and a society unable to assist them in starting to rebuild 

their lives. Many were physically and psychologically damaged. The 

lost generation of Sierra Leone now sits by pockmarked roads with 

no hope waiting for the next ‘‘Pa’’ to lead them back into the only 

life they know: fighting, raping, pillaging and murdering their fellow citizens. 

The Child Soldiers Accountability Act of 2007, passed by the 

United States Senate in December of last year, is an important signal to the world that this country will not tolerate those who recruit mere children into armed forces of whatever kind. Moreover, 

it gives our Government the legal tools to deal with those who are 

in this country or seek to enter this country to deal with them by 

prosecution, exclusion and/or deportation. 

I will close with a story of thousands that I personally was involved with in my 3 years in West Africa relating to just one child 

22 

soldier. And I quote this from my opening statement to the tribunal 

against the leadership of the Revolutionary United Front. 

It was a clear, hot day. The meeting hall in the school for the 

deaf located up country near Makeni rippled with the heat of over 

500 persons. I had been speaking to the students, faculty and others in one of my many town hall meetings I conducted throughout 

Sierra Leone. The purpose of the meetings were to provide a vehicle for the people of this small and fragile nation to talk to their 

prosecutor about the war, the crimes, their pain and other issues 

related to our work. 

As I finished answering a question from a student near the front, 

a shy, small arm was raised in the middle of the hall. I walked 

back to the student. He meekly stood up, head bowed, and he 

mumbled loud enough for those around him to hear, ‘‘I killed people. I am sorry. I didn’t mean it.’’ I went over to him, tears in my 

eyes, and I hugged him and said, ‘‘Of course you didn’t mean it. I 

forgive you.’’ 

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for this opportunity to address you 

today about holding accountable those who destroy children’s lives 

by recruiting them into armed forces. I welcome your questions, sir. 

[The prepared statement of Mr. Crane follows:] 

23 

PREPARED STATEMENT OF DAVID M. CRANE


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Mr. SCOTT. Thank you. 

Ms. Akallo, how do recruiters induce the children? 

Ms. AKALLO. When they are first abducted, they use—in Uganda, 

they use kind of a ritual act by putting a batter on the child. That 

is to initiate the child into the army. And in the second step, the 

child is beaten until he doesn’t know himself or herself. And then 

he is given a gun and is forced to kill or beat someone to death. 

And the child goes on, continues, until the child is hardened 

enough to do it alone. 

Mr. SCOTT. Mr. Malinowski, you mentioned Charles Taylor. What 

did he do relevant to this issue, and how was he prosecuted? And 

what would this bill do? 

Mr. MALINOWSKI. That is actually better directed to the former 

chief prosecutor who prosecuted him. 

Mr. SCOTT. Mr. Crane? 

Mr. CRANE. Well, thank you. 

Charles Taylor was the linchpin in a 10-year-long geopolitical 

joint criminal enterprise between himself, Blaise Compaore of 

Burkina Faso and Muammar Gaddafi of Libya. Charles Taylor told 

Foday Sanko, who was about to invade Sierra Leone from Liberia, 

to take over the diamond fields of eastern Sierra Leone, ‘‘Recruit 

everyone, to include women and children,’’ and that he did for 10 

years. 

And for that I signed an indictment in March of 2003 indicting 

Charles Taylor, the sitting President of Liberia, on 11 counts of 

war crimes and crimes against humanity, one of which was the unlawful recruitment of children into an armed force under the age 

of 15, the first time in history that this had ever been done. 

Mr. SCOTT. What is the status of the prosecution? 

Mr. CRANE. Well, the Special Court for Sierra Leone is about 90 

percent done. Most of the individuals who were charged have been 

found guilty and have been convicted, to include, all of them, the 

unlawful recruitment of children under the age of 15 into an armed 

force. 

Charles Taylor—of course the international community had to 

come to a political decision as to when to hand over a head of state 

to an international tribunal. They did so in March of 2006. He now 

sits before Trial Chamber No. 2 of the Special Court for Sierra 

Leone in The Hague on that 11-count indictment that I signed on 

the 3rd of March of 2003, sir. 

Mr. SCOTT. Now, this is the International Criminal Court? 

Mr. CRANE. No. It is a hybrid international war crimes tribunal. 

It is the first one tried in history. 

The ad hoc tribunal concept was too slow, too expensive. The Security Council, with the leadership of this country, I might add, 

came up with a new hybrid international tribunal to be a little bit 

more efficient, a little bit more effective, and try those who bear 

the greatest responsibility for war crimes and crimes against humanity, as opposed to just everyone. 

So I narrowed it down to about 13 indictees, and they are completing their work. They should be done about 8 years after we 

started. 

Mr. SCOTT. Are United States citizens subject to this court? 

Mr. CRANE. They are not, Mr. Chairman. 

41 

Mr. SCOTT. Is there any situation that would justify recruiting 

children under the age of 15? 

Mr. CRANE. Not that I can know of at all. I have found no military reason, moral reason or practical reason. 

Mr. SCOTT. Why do we use 15 rather than 18? 

Mr. CRANE. That is a good question. That is a debate within the 

international community, and Tom might be able to address that. 

My personal opinion is certainly anybody under the age of 15 

should not be in an armed force. Various countries in the world use 

17 year olds in their armed forces with consent from parents, but 

the international standard is under 18. However, the debate continues related to whether a child can commit a war crime; certainly 

under the age of 15, I would certainly submit to you. 

And this act, correctly at this point, cites those who unlawfully 

recruit under the age of 15. 

Mr. MALINOWSKI. I agree. There is an absolute international consensus for under 15. There is an emerging norm that under 18 is 

prohibited, which the United States has joined. We still recruit— 

and that is consistent with the treaty—17 year olds, but it is U.S. 

policy not to involve them in hostilities, in conflict. 

Mr. SCOTT. Thank you. 

The gentleman from Texas? 

Mr. GOHMERT. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

And I thank the witnesses for your testimony. 

Ms. Akallo, obviously nobody here would wish what you went 

through on anyone. And you have our greatest sympathy. 

You did say, ‘‘It pains my heart when the perpetrators are given 

safe havens here in the United States, in other parts of the world, 

are given amnesty.’’ And I am curious, do you know if any of your 

perpetrators were given safe haven or amnesty here in the United 

States? 

Ms. AKALLO. I still don’t know the people that have been given 

amnesty here. But the leader of the Lord’s Resistance Army is actually asking for the Government of Uganda to allow him to be 

given a place somewhere. And it can be the United States, it can 

be anywhere in the world that he can go, and he will be free without being charged. 

Mr. GOHMERT. But do you know of anyone who you are aware 

of forced children to become soldiers, getting safe haven or amnesty 

in the United States? 

Ms. AKALLO. Not in the United States. The second in command 

in Uganda, the Lord’s Resistance Army, was given amnesty in 

Uganda and lives in Uganda. 

Mr. GOHMERT. Okay. Well, I was just curious, because when you 

said it pains my heart when perpetrators are given safe havens 

here in the United States, I guess you were talking about in the 

future, if it ever happened, because you are not aware of it happening so far, correct? 

Ms. AKALLO. I am not aware, but it can happen in the future. 

Mr. GOHMERT. Okay. Thank you. 

Professor Crane, I am really torn here. It is such a moving story 

about the young man that admitted what he had done as a child. 

And you had expressed that you forgave him. And I wonder, if it 

turned out that—you know, as a judge, I saw a lot of child abuse, 

42 

and people who abused children were often abused themselves. And 

I am wondering, if it turns out that most of these people forcing 

children to become soldiers were forced into being a soldier as a 

child themselves, should we forgive them and just let it go because 

they were forced in originally as a child? 

Mr. CRANE. That is a good question, Judge, and I appreciate the 

point. 

The bottom line is that, at the international level, you have entire generations of children, 35,000 in Sierra Leone, who were moving around who were child soldiers. I made a political decision, as 

the chief prosecutor, that I did not have the capacity to prosecute 

a child for war crimes and crimes against humanity. Frankly, I 

don’t think a child has the mens rea to commit a war crime, and 

I made that appropriate decision. The entire country issued a collective sigh of relief. 

So when I said ‘‘forgave,’’ it was a personal forgiveness; it wasn’t 

a legal forgiveness. 

Mr. GOHMERT. Because I wonder, because this is an issue that 

gets debated frequently. And some States, like my own, have laws 

that if a crime is so atrocious and the facts surrounding it give 

such an indication that there was clearly mens rea by someone 

under 17, then he can be certified up to be tried as an adult for 

such a heinous crime. 

And so, anyway, there is an ongoing debate over the issue, but 

I wondered where you came down on that. You are not asserting 

that we forgive anybody that was forced in originally, correct? 

Mr. CRANE. Not at all. You know, I am an old Federal prosecutor. 

Mr. GOHMERT. That is a mitigating factor on sentencing, rather 

than an outright defense then, as a prosecutor? 

Mr. CRANE. Yes, sir. As a prosecutor, I would say that anybody 

who commits violations of domestic law under our domestic law has 

the appropriate resolution. 

At the international level, when the multiples are far beyond just 

one or two or a gang or what have you that might be before your 

court, Judge, that might be a different story. But when you are 

looking at literally an entire generation, you have to make some 

hard calls related to who you prosecute and who you don’t. 

Now, frankly, my mandate from the Security Council was those 

who bear the greatest responsibility, and that is the guys that actually started it, aided, abetted it. 

Mr. GOHMERT. Thank you. 

And I know that Human Rights Watch, as I understand it, is a 

member of the Coalition to Stop the Use of Child Soldiers. As I understand it, that is a group that does want to stop anyone under 

18 from becoming a soldier. Is that correct? 

Mr. MALINOWSKI. I can tell you that we are absolutely comfortable with the treaty that the United States is part of, 

which—— 

Mr. GOHMERT. But isn’t that something that the coalition has a 

stated goal? 

Mr. MALINOWSKI. I think there are many, many folks who would 

say that, yes. I think it is a very narrow distinction now. And you 

know where we are, as a country, that DOD can recruit at age 17; 

43 

17 year olds don’t go to the front lines. And we think that is certainly something that we are comfortable with. 

Mr. GOHMERT. Okay, you are comfortable with, but would you 

like to see, personally, eventually no 17 year olds recruited? 

Mr. MALINOWSKI. Personally, I would be happier, because I am 

concerned about setting the clearest example for other countries 

where this is more of a problem. It is not so much the United 

States aspect of this that is the problem, but we are the leader, and 

everything we do is an example, for better or worse, for others. 

But, as I said, this is not the major issue in the debate right now. 

The major issue is how do we get the standard enforced in the 

countries where it is such an atrocious problem. 

Mr. GOHMERT. And truly, it is a problem. 

I would expect you would support the bill that I think has been 

filed here in the House to end any foreign assistance to countries 

that allow this type of practice, correct? 

Mr. MALINOWSKI. Well, that’s right. And a version of that is actually already enacted in the Consolidated Appropriations Act that 

you all passed last December. That bill would make it essentially 

permanent. And, again, it gives the State Department a powerful 

tool to press governments that are at the root of the problem to 

change their practices. And that is vital. 

Mr. GOHMERT. Okay. And just to wrap up, I’d note for the record 

that most all of our attendees at our service academies were recruited and signed up, or at least recruited and made the commitment to application, before they turned 18. I certainly applied for 

A&M and went into ROTC and turned 18 just before I started 

school. So maybe you could point to that and say, ‘‘Oh, so that’s 

your problem.’’ But anyway, thank you. 

I yield back. 

Mr. SCOTT. Thank you. 

The gentleman from Michigan, Chairman of the Committee? 

Mr. CONYERS. Thank you, Chairman Scott. 

Can we get into the record the countries that have the most 

problems with the use of child soldiers? Is that in anyone’s testimony or in our prepared material? 

Mr. MALINOWSKI. We could provide you with a list of the 18 

countries, Mr. Conyers, where we know this to be a significant 

problem. 

Mr. CONYERS. Thank you very much, Mr. Malinowski. 

[The information referred to follows:] 

44 


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Mr. CONYERS. Now, what do we do if a child soldier is under the 

age of 15? 

Mr. MALINOWSKI. What do we do? 

Mr. CONYERS. Yes, if the law says it has to be he is at least 15. 

Mr. MALINOWSKI. No, it is under 15. 

Mr. CONYERS. It is under 15? 

Mr. MALINOWSKI. That’s right. 

Mr. CONYERS. Okay. Anything under 15? 

Mr. MALINOWSKI. That’s correct. 

Mr. CONYERS. Is there a credible case for making it under 18? 

Mr. MALINOWSKI. I think we would be happier if it was under 18. 

That is the emerging international standard. It is something that 

the United States has signed up to. Fifteen is a more conservative 

approach to this, one that is consistent with what everyone around 

the world has already agreed to criminalize. 

So, again, we are comfortable with the bill at 15. We would be 

happy if the Congress were able to bring that up higher. The most 

important thing, though, is to criminalize the worst, most egregious 

violations of the standard. And, obviously, the younger the child, 

the worse the violation. 

Mr. CONYERS. Prosecutor Crane, have you anything to add to 

this? 

Mr. CRANE. Other than to just underscore, Mr. Chairman, the 

fact that if the United States passes this bill, it rings a bell 

throughout the world saying, at a minimum, under 15, if you recruit children, if you come to the United States or we find you in 

the United States, you will either be prosecuted, deported or denied 

entry. 

And as an old prosecutor myself, if I have a tool by which to 

choose, then that is a useful thing for me. I may choose to do nothing, based on the circumstances, but if I have the opportunity, it 

would be a terrible thing not to be able to do anything related to 

a child soldier. 

You know, there is a huge diaspora of West Africans in this 

country who settled around Baltimore, Boston, Philadelphia. In 

fact, Charles Taylor’s son was caught in Miami and currently is sitting in Miami, being prosecuted for an unrelated charge. But he 

was going to Minnesota, which has a huge Liberian diaspora, to recruit to get his father out of Nigeria, to take him back into Liberia 

to start the civil war all over again. Some of those were children. 

So I would just say as just a factual note, respectfully, if the 

practice is there, and the opportunity, they will take it. 

Mr. MALINOWSKI. If I may add to that, because I think that is 

the question looming over the discussion: Is this just a symbolic 

gesture, a way for us to say we are against child soldiers? Or is 

it something practical that will create legal precedent that will 

bring perpetrators to justice? And I think the answer is the latter. 

I wouldn’t be here if it was just symbolic. 

My understanding is that the Justice Department has, in fact, 

identified potential cases that they could bring, were this law to be 

adopted. They are not going to tell us who those individuals are, 

I think for very appropriate reasons. But that is my understanding. 

Is it going to be hundreds of people? Of course not. But one case, 

such as the case of the son, Chuckie Taylor, as he is known, does 

47 

send a very powerful message and creates a precedent about this 

standard that we are trying desperately to advance around the 

world. 

Mr. CONYERS. Ms. Grace Akallo, are there any other comments 

you would like to make that occurred to you during this discussion 

after you made your opening statement? 

Ms. AKALLO. Yes. I have been listening about the age limit that 

children should be recruited in the army that is between 15 and 

18. If it was in my power, I think 18 would be the best standard, 

because even the 15 year olds still deserve the chance for a future. 

But being recruited into the army—I was recruited at the age of 

15. I was in school. My future was basically destroyed. If I had not 

gotten a chance to survive and come back and continue with education, I wouldn’t be sitting here. 

And the recruitment of children above 15 years old should not 

even been forceful; it should be voluntary, if the child is 15 or 18, 

should be voluntary, not forced. But so many countries force these 

children. When we talk about recruitment of children, they are 

forced. They are forced by abduction or by threat of death or killing 

of their families, and the children join in the army. 

And if possible the age limit would be 18, according to me, it 

would be good. But if the world has come to agreement to that, I 

will be comfortable for now. 

Mr. CONYERS. If I can ask this final question, Chairman Scott, 

what is the psychological repair of this? Have we been able to engage in any medical examination of how we bring people out? 

You, Ms. Akallo, are a unique representative of this phenomenon, 

because I can tell without an examination of my own question that, 

for many, this is a difficult and impossible road back to normalcy 

and sanity. 

And so I wanted to ask all of you how we should go about the 

psychological healing that is so awfully complex. 

Ms. AKALLO. The psychological healing of these children—I 

would begin by myself—is very possible, sir. When a child is taken 

and put into another world different from where he has been, he 

believes in that world. But he is not completely destroyed. He still 

has the memory of the world that he was taken from. So when he 

comes back or he manages to escape and he is given counseling and 

given a chance of a future and a chance of responsibility to his 

community, the child is able to come back to his normal. 

But most of the time, when these children come back, their families are destroyed. Like in Uganda, they live in displaced camps 

that are really bad, bad situation. They are ridiculed. They are 

abused, because these people live in a compact community camp 

that is really bad. And the abuse may not be purposefully, but because they are redundant, there is no work to do, so they continue 

abusing these kids. And then these kids don’t get completely get 

psychologically healed. 

But if they are given a chance to a new environment, a new future—and, to me, a new future is education—that if they get and 

they know the sense of responsibility to their community, they easily can get healed. 

Mr. CONYERS. Mr. Malinowski, have you anything—what are you 

thinking about the healing process? 

48 

And this should be relatively easy legislation to enact; the next 

step is the healing. 

Mr. MALINOWSKI. Well, I am not sure what I can add that could 

possibly be as eloquent as what we just heard from someone who 

has lived this. 

I do know that in the relatively fortunate societies where the active recruitment of children has stopped or is on the decline, like 

northern Uganda, like Sierra Leone, because of the peace process, 

there is an opportunity for the brave people that our Government 

often funds and supports in the aid community to deploy and to 

provide the kinds of services, particularly education, that kids desperately need to have the opportunity to live a more normal life. 

And I know that our Government is engaged in that. And we always love it when Members of Congress ask the State Department 

what they are doing and encourage them to do more and help them 

to do more. And I would encourage you to do that. 

And, of course, there are societies where there is no opportunity 

to do that, like, for example, Burma, where this problem continues 

to rage, and there is no opportunity for good people to go in and 

hug these kids and to give them a chance to lead a more normal 

life. And there our focus has to be on stopping it. 

So it is a two-pronged effort. We need both. 

Mr. CRANE. Just to brief up, Mr. Chairman, I haven’t asked this 

question yet. I have thought about it. In fact, I have had nightmares about it, frankly, sir. But the point is that there is an entire 

generation in West Africa that has no hope. Have you ever seen a 

child who looks you in the eye and has no hope? They can’t read, 

they can’t write, they have no jobs, there is no basis to even educate them. They don’t even know their real names, and they don’t 

even know where they came from. 

The 10 percent, maybe 5 percent, that finally work their way 

back to their village, they have a cleansing ceremony, which I observed. Very moving. A child throws himself to the feet of his elders, seeking forgiveness. The elders ask the community, do they 

want this now 6-, 5-, 7-year older child, who left at 7 years old, who 

comes in at 14 or 15 years old. They all nod, and they put him into 

a cleansing hut, and they take off his clothes, and they ritually 

wash him, and they give him new clothes, and he walks out, and 

the community accepts him back into the community. That is, like, 

one in a thousand. It is the other 999 that bother me. 

Frankly, there is nothing we can do, because there is not enough 

political will. Even though there are many, many groups trying, it 

just can’t be done when you have that amount of—a generation 

lost. That is why we need to at least put a floor down saying, it 

is enough, and continue to move forward. Maybe we won’t have any 

further Ugandas, Sierra Leones, Colombias, Cambodias, you name 

it. 

Thank you, sir. 

Mr. CONYERS. Thank you very much. 

[5:06 p.m.] 

Mr. SCOTT. Thank you. I just had a couple of technical questions 

to, I guess, Professor Crane. 

49 

If someone is prosecuted in the United States for a crime that 

was committed somewhere else, are there due process and evidentiary challenges that we need to address? 

Mr. CRANE. Well, certainly, when one commits a crime overseas, 

there has to be some type of extraterritoriality to the legislation. 

Obviously, there has to be a jurisdictional hook by which we can 

bring that person into the United States and prosecute them for 

violation of any kind of law. I mean, that is just a basic jurisdictional issue. 

And so the issue is, if the person is here and it can be shown 

that they unlawfully recruited a child under the age of 15 into an 

armed force, for example in Sierra Leone, and they are living in the 

United States, certainly one could argue that we might have the 

ability to prosecute that individual. 

Mr. SCOTT. I’m not talking about the jurisdiction. I’m talking 

about just the nuts and bolts of a prosecution. Where do you get 

your evidence? How does he defend himself? Due process and evidentiary challenges. 

Mr. CRANE. Oh, excuse me. Absolutely. Well, certainly evidence 

is always a challenge, evidence is always an issue, because a lot of 

the evidence is overseas. However, if you have, for example, an individual who is in the United States on a green card, for example, 

and was found to have been a combatant in Sierra Leone, it would 

be largely up to individuals. It is witness testimony. There is nothing in writing. It is individuals saying, ‘‘I saw this person kill 

this’’—or recruit so-and-so. 

Mr. SCOTT. Have there been such prosecutions? I mean, where do 

you get your witnesses? Does a defendant have an opportunity to 

defend himself? 

Mr. CRANE. Certainly. Of course, at the international level, we 

did prosecute. We did present evidence. And, in fact, I even provided you a picture of my lead-off witness in the case against the 

leadership of the Revolutionary United Front. He has ‘‘AFRC RUF’’ 

carved into his chest. 

You bring in the victims, you bring in the individuals who were 

victims of being recruited. So it is victim testimony. Of course, certainly they can be cross-examined. I mean, obviously, the rules of 

procedure and evidence that were created by the statute of the 

court certainly allow a complete, common law due process. 

In fact, it was a very familiar feeling to me when I was wearing 

the robes of a chief prosecutor in a tribunal as you would in practicing before the judge here. I mean, it is common law. But the bottom line is it is just good lawyering and getting your victims. 

I was impressed. We had 395 witnesses lined up to testify in all 

sorts of crimes, one of which was crimes against children; 394 

showed up. And, as was alluded to, they proudly come forward and 

want to tell their testimony. They want to give—they do this for 

the families that aren’t there and for the people who have been 

murdered in front of their eyes. 

Mr. SCOTT. Mr. Malinowski, do you see any due process or evidentiary challenges that we need to address? 

Mr. MALINOWSKI. Well, yeah, the due process standards are the 

same, defendants’ rights are the same, and the evidentiary standards are the same. 

50 

If the evidence is overseas, it is harder, which is why—you know, 

if it happens in the United States, the Justice Department is likely 

to choose cases where the evidence is fairly clear, where witnesses 

are available, where they feel like they have a good chance of obtaining a conviction. 

And, you know, we mentioned the case of Chuckie Taylor, 

Charles Taylor’s son. And that is a good example of a case where 

the Justice Department feels it can overcome those inherent challenges and set a precedent that will be very valuable. And I imagine that would be the same for any case that they take under the 

child soldier statute, as well. 

Mr. SCOTT. The statute of limitations in the bill is 10 years. Is 

that too long or too short or just right? 

Mr. CRANE. My feeling is it is—I think it is about right. I think 

it is about right. Ten years is sufficient. I think that kind of evidence will come out earlier than later. But, again, it remains to be 

seen. I’m speculating, frankly, Mr. Chairman. But 10 years seems 

to be right to me. 

Mr. SCOTT. And the penalty, 20 years to life if death occurs, how 

does that compare to other crimes? In context, is that an appropriate sentence? 

Mr. CRANE. Yes, it is, Mr. Chairman. The standard at the international level is if you’re charged with the unlawful recruitment of 

child soldiers under the age of 15, it can carry up to as much as 

what would be equivalent to a life sentence. There is no death penalty at the international level. 

So, on balance, this bill is right down the middle as far as statute 

of limitations, penalties, and even the standard of under the age 

of 15, in my opinion. 

Mr. SCOTT. Thank you. 

Mr. Gohmert? 

Mr. GOHMERT. Just one clarification question, Mr. Malinowski. 

You mentioned if this were purely symbolic, that you wouldn’t be 

here. And I’m curious, because, to me, since it appears it will not 

be used a great deal, so far not at all—as the occasion arisen, but 

there may be facts arising now—but is the symbolism to other 

countries of this Nation passing a law like this of any significance? 

Mr. MALINOWSKI. Absolutely. And I would see that as a practical, 

rather than symbolic, benefit. 

Mr. GOHMERT. I wasn’t sure if you were saying—— 

Mr. MALINOWSKI. Yeah, I mean, ideally we would want to create 

a web of laws around the world, so that it is not just an issue of 

no safe haven in the United States, but no safe haven anywhere. 

The United States is a leader. If the Congress passes this 

law—— 

Mr. GOHMERT. We agree on that, because it looked like to me 

that the potential message to the rest of the world may be the most 

important aspect if this becomes law. 

Mr. MALINOWSKI. It is a very important aspect, yes. 

Mr. GOHMERT. Okay. I just wasn’t sure if you felt that was important, from your comment. Thank you. 

Mr. SCOTT. Let me ask one final question. 

This says the prohibition is against someone doing the recruiting 

and whatnot. If we passed the bill, would it apply to anyone who 

51 

has done this in the last 10 years or anyone who violates the provisions of the bill prospectively? 

That came up in some of our other bills. And it was felt that, 

since it is already illegal, that we would be intending a retroactive 

application. How does that fit in our little constitutional framework? 

Mr. CRANE. Well, certainly, ex post facto laws and those types of 

things are problematic, and I take your point. 

The unlawful recruitment of children under the age of 15 into an 

armed force, as our appellate court ruled, crystalized as customary 

international law as of 1996. So it is an international crime, certainly as of that date. In other words, all who have done it are on 

notice that it is unlawful to recruit. 

So, certainly, my argument would be, if we were doing this in a 

court of law, is that we are just enforcing what is already an international crime and using this as the mechanism by which we 

would do that. 

Mr. SCOTT. Do you have a different analysis, Mr. Malinowski? 

Mr. MALINOWSKI. No, I would agree. 

Mr. SCOTT. I’d like to thank our witnesses for their testimony 

today, particularly Ms. Akallo, for your very moving testimony, and 

responses to questions. 

Members may have additional written questions for witnesses 

which will be forwarded to you, and we ask that if you’re sent questions, that you answer them as promptly as you can so they may 

be made part of the record. 

And, without objection, the hearing record will remain open for 

1 week for submission of additional materials. 

Without objection, this Subcommittee stands adjourned. 

[Whereupon, at 5:14 p.m., the Subcommittee was adjourned.] 

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