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45–628 PDF 2008

9/11 HEALTH: WHY DID HHS CANCEL CONTRACTS

TO MANAGE RESPONDER HEALTH CARE?

HEARING

BEFORE THE

SUBCOMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT MANAGEMENT,

ORGANIZATION, AND PROCUREMENT

OF THE

COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT

AND GOVERNMENT REFORM

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

ONE HUNDRED TENTH CONGRESS

SECOND SESSION

JANUARY 22, 2008

Serial No. 110–100

Printed for the use of the Committee on Oversight and Government Reform

(

Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.gpoaccess.gov/congress/index.html

http://www.oversight.house.gov

(II)

COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM

HENRY A. WAXMAN, California, Chairman

TOM LANTOS, California

EDOLPHUS TOWNS, New York

PAUL E. KANJORSKI, Pennsylvania

CAROLYN B. MALONEY, New York

ELIJAH E. CUMMINGS, Maryland

DENNIS J. KUCINICH, Ohio

DANNY K. DAVIS, Illinois

JOHN F. TIERNEY, Massachusetts

WM. LACY CLAY, Missouri

DIANE E. WATSON, California

STEPHEN F. LYNCH, Massachusetts

BRIAN HIGGINS, New York

JOHN A. YARMUTH, Kentucky

BRUCE L. BRALEY, Iowa

ELEANOR HOLMES NORTON, District of

Columbia

BETTY MCCOLLUM, Minnesota

JIM COOPER, Tennessee

CHRIS VAN HOLLEN, Maryland

PAUL W. HODES, New Hampshire

CHRISTOPHER S. MURPHY, Connecticut

JOHN P. SARBANES, Maryland

PETER WELCH, Vermont

TOM DAVIS, Virginia

DAN BURTON, Indiana

CHRISTOPHER SHAYS, Connecticut

JOHN M. MCHUGH, New York

JOHN L. MICA, Florida

MARK E. SOUDER, Indiana

TODD RUSSELL PLATTS, Pennsylvania

CHRIS CANNON, Utah

JOHN J. DUNCAN, JR., Tennessee

MICHAEL R. TURNER, Ohio

DARRELL E. ISSA, California

KENNY MARCHANT, Texas

LYNN A. WESTMORELAND, Georgia

PATRICK T. MCHENRY, North Carolina

VIRGINIA FOXX, North Carolina

BRIAN P. BILBRAY, California

BILL SALI, Idaho

JIM JORDAN, Ohio

PHIL SCHILIRO, Chief of Staff

PHIL BARNETT, Staff Director

EARLEY GREEN, Chief Clerk

DAVID MARIN, Minority Staff Director

SUBCOMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT MANAGEMENT, ORGANIZATION, AND PROCUREMENT

EDOLPHUS TOWNS, New York, Chairman

PAUL E. KANJORSKI, Pennsylvania

CHRISTOPHER S. MURPHY, Connecticut

PETER WELCH, Vermont

CAROLYN B. MALONEY, New York

BRIAN P. BILBRAY, California

TODD RUSSELL PLATTS, Pennsylvania,

JOHN J. DUNCAN, JR., Tennessee

MICHAEL MCCARTHY, Staff Director

(III)

C O N T E N T S

Page

Hearing held on January 22, 2008 ......................................................................... 1

Statement of:

Libretti, Joseph, ironworker, Local 580, Pennsylvania; Kevin Mount, retired heavy equipment operator, NYC Department of Sanitation; Cynthia Bascetta, Director, Health Care, Government Accountability Office;

Jim Melius, Chair, Advisory Board, WTC Medical Monitoring and

Treatment Program; and Frank Fraone, operations chief, Menlo Park,

CA, Fire Department and Federal Urban Search and Rescue Team ....... 16

Bascetta, Cynthia ...................................................................................... 27

Fraone, Frank ............................................................................................ 57

Libretti, Joseph .......................................................................................... 16

Melius, Jim ................................................................................................ 44

Mount, Kevin ............................................................................................. 20

Letters, statements, etc., submitted for the record by:

Bascetta, Cynthia, Director, Health Care, Government Accountability Office, prepared statement of ........................................................................... 29

Fraone, Frank, operations chief, Menlo Park, CA, Fire Department and

Federal Urban Search and Rescue Team, prepared statement of ............ 60

Libretti, Joseph, ironworker, Local 580, Pennsylvania, prepared statement of ........................................................................................................... 19

Maloney, Hon. Carolyn B., a Representative in Congress from the State

of New York, prepared statement of ........................................................... 8

Melius, Jim, Chair, Advisory Board, WTC Medical Monitoring and Treatment Program, prepared statement of ........................................................ 48

Mount, Kevin, retired heavy equipment operator, NYC Department of

Sanitation, prepared statement of ............................................................... 23

Nadler, Hon. Jerrold, a Representative in Congress from the State of

New York, prepared statement of ................................................................ 14

Towns, Hon. Edolphus, a Representative in Congress from the State

of New York, prepared statement of ........................................................... 3

(1)

9/11 HEALTH: WHY DID HHS CANCEL CONTRACTS TO MANAGE RESPONDER HEALTH

CARE?

TUESDAY, JANUARY 22, 2008

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,

SUBCOMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT MANAGEMENT,

ORGANIZATION, AND PROCUREMENT,

COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM,

New York, NY.

The subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:35 a.m., at the

Daniel Moynihan Federal Courthouse, 500 Pearl Street, New York,

NY, Hon. Edolphus Towns (chairman of the subcommittee) presiding.

Present: Representatives Towns and Maloney.

Also present: Representatives Nadler and Fossella.

Staff present: Velvet Johnson, counsel.

Mr. TOWNS. The committee will come to order. As we begin our

business here today, we should remember back 6 years ago when

toxic clouds of smoke from the World Trade Center hung over lower

Manhattan, Brooklyn and other parts of the city. Everyone in

America has their own story about that day, where they were,

what they were doing, what they were thinking or feeling on September 11, 2001. But for the emergency responders and recovery

workers who worked in and around Ground Zero that day, it does

not just haunt them. For some, it is killing them.

Six and a half years since the attack, we now know that the toxic

environment created when the towers collapsed exposed first responders, rescue and clean-up workers to a range of dust, smoke

and toxic pollutants. These heroes from across the Nation are still

dealing with the long-term health effects from 9/11. Many are suffering from disease and disability and require medical care. It is

our duty as a nation to make sure that they get the care they need.

Unfortunately, the Federal effort to provide health care to these

workers has been plagued by false starts, incomplete programs and

funding shortfalls.

In Congress, we have been fighting for permanent, long-term

health care for 9/11 workers. My colleagues here today—Congresswoman Maloney, Congressman Nadler, of course along with Congressman Fossella—wrote a bipartisan bill that would guarantee

health care for these heroes, and I want to salute them for that.

Last year I held three oversight hearings to bring attention to this

issue and to hold the administration accountable for its lack of

progress. Last year Congress approved more than $100 million of

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funding for 9/11 health care programs, and last fall the administration solicited bids for a center that would manage medical pharmacy care for 9/11 workers nationwide. So we thought we were finally on the right track.

Then in December, the administration pulled the plug on this

contract just 2 days before the bids were due. It is really a baffling

decision and they can’t even get their stories straight for why it

happened. First they said that the bidders were confused. That is

very interesting. Well, we have talked to bidders who had invested

a lot of time and money in their proposals, and they said they were

ready to go and they were not confused. Then the administration

said there wasn’t enough funding. Well, how could they know that

before the bids came in? And what about the $108 million that

Congress provided? Let me tell you, this does not make any sense

and that’s why I called this hearing today to get the bottom of it.

And let me inform those that say let’s stall. Well, let me tell you,

we are not going to go away. You might be able to stall, but I want

to let you know, there is an empty chair at the witness table today

because you refused to come. Well, let me just say what we are

going to do next if you refuse to come: we are going to ask for all

the memos, we are going to ask for all the telephone records, we

are going to ask for the e-mails, we are going ask for the letters

and then we are going to ask another question: Was the White

House involved in this decision?

We are going to raise these questions, because we are not going

to let people suffer who came in and responded in a very efficient

manner to protect the lives of so many—and then we are just going

to leave them and neglect them. I will not stand for it as the Chair

of this committee. And, of course, I want to let the word go forth

that we will not stand by and allow you to stall. We are going to

get the information that we need.

As Chair of the Government Management Subcommittee, I try to

be fair. I give people the benefit of the doubt. I try to give the administration the benefit of the doubt. But, I’ve done oversight on

a lot of programs and I’m sorry to say that the HHS program for

9/11 health care is one the worst managed programs that I have

ever seen in my 26 years of being in the U.S. Congress.

The lack of action for these heroes as sheroes and the bureaucracy they’ve had to go through is simply unacceptable. It is a disgrace and it must be stopped.

I would like to unanimous consent for members of the New York

City Delegation not on the subcommittee to participate in today’s

hearing.

Hearing no objection, it is so ordered.

[The prepared statement of Hon. Edolphus Towns follows:]

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Mr. TOWNS. I will now yield to my colleagues for their opening

statements. No more than 5 minutes each, starting with you, Congresswoman Maloney, who has really been very involved in this

issue, and, of course, had done a remarkable job of making certain

that it stays alive and that people are treated fairly. I salute you

for that this morning, Congresswoman Maloney.

Mrs. MALONEY. Thank you, Chairman Towns, for those kind

words, and, really, for your leadership in convening this important

hearing today. And to my colleague, Jerry Nadler, for his steadfast

work on this issue.

Chairman Towns, this is the fourth hearing that he has held,

and he is determined to get answers, and I congratulate your leadership and your determination. I do want to thank the members

here that will be testifying. Many of them are among the thousands of responders who came to New York City with a minute’s

notice. They were here quickly to help our city, to help try to save

lives, to help in recovery. Yet, the administration, HHS, with 2

week’s notice could not get anyone on a shuttle or an airplane or

here in any way to answer questions and to provide the appropriate testimony. So I congratulate you, Mr. Chairman, to being determined to get the answers to the questions and to hold them accountable for their actions.

I also really very much want to express my gratitude to the U.S.

Court of Appeals Second Circuit. They have generously agreed to

provide us this room for this hearing and to the Moynihan Courthouse. As many of you may know, more than 70,000 Americans

have signed up for the World Trade Center Health Registry because they are concerned about their exposure to the deadly toxins

on 9/11. About 60,000 of those registered hail from the tri-State

area and most have access to health clinics operated by the local

Centers of Excellence. What many of you may not know is that the

other 10,000 registrants live outside of the New York City area and

these Americans come from every State in our union, including

Alaska and Hawaii. And, perhaps even more amazing, 431 of our

435 congressional districts nationwide, they all had people working

at Ground Zero.

Today we are joined by three responders who live outside the

New York metropolitan area, and these three heroes were all at

Ground Zero. They all have health challenges from their service

and they all need the help that a national program would provide.

Chief Fraone from Menlo Park, CA, who led urban search and

rescue teams from California at Ground Zero, will tell his story and

talk about the difficulties he had in getting help, treatment, or just

plain getting information he needs to take care of his health concerns.

Joseph Libretti, an ironworker from Pennsylvania, who spent the

first months responding to the attack and is now seriously ill; in

fact, over the weekend we were afraid he wouldn’t be able to come

because of health challenges from his exposure at Ground Zero. He

can no longer work and has to travel 100 miles one way to see his

doctor here in New York.

We will also hear from Kevin Mount, a former heavy equipment

operator with the New York City Department of Sanitation, who

worked on the pile and had to retire to Florida on disability due

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to injuries caused by his service, and who now must come back to

New York City several times a year to see his doctors at Mt. Sinai.

These responders represent thousands of rescue and recovery

workers who came from around the country to help New York and

are now in need of help from the Federal Government.

However, just before Christmas, right before Christmas, the

Bush administration abruptly terminated a Request for Contracts

to set up a World Trade Center Business Processing Center which

would have been the hub of a national program to provide care for

Americans who have 9/11 related illnesses.

I used to Chair the Contracts Committee on the City Council and

I work on contracts on this committee for the Federal Government.

Never in my entire history of studying and working on accountability in contracts have I heard of one terminated 2 days before it was

due. The administration’s abrupt and ill-advised decision essentially ended the hope that sick 9/11 responders from around the

country could any time soon get long-term, federally funded medical monitoring and treatment without traveling to the New York

City area. The Request for Contracts for the national program was

first put out in October and the final December 19th deadline to

submit contracts was fast approaching when they just pulled the

plug and put it out of commission.

Senators Clinton and Schumer and the entire delegation sent a

letter to Health and Human Resources Secretary Michael Leavitt

looking for answers about this abrupt change in course. The letter

is available at the sign-in desk.

The reasons given at the time just did not make any sense. First

they said there wasn’t enough money. Now if that were true, it

would mean that the Department failed to ask for enough money.

Yet, the fact is that the money was there. We just put in $108 million for 9/11 health care, which added to the $50 million we approved earlier that year.

They also said their was bidders’ confusion. We talked to several

of the bidders and they said they weren’t confused at all. They

wanted to submit their contract. We wanted to know why the decision was made and who made it and what alternative plans the administration may have in store if they don’t reinstate their Request

for Contracts. We had asked for an answer before Friday, December 21st. We did not get one. It is now January 22nd and we still

do not have an answer.

And as Chairman Towns stated, he asked Secretary Leavitt to

testify today, or at least have the common courtesy to send someone to do so, but apparently neither he, nor any of the thousands

of people who work for him, could spend a few hours of their time

for the heroes of 9/11. It seems that while thousands came to New

York with no notice in our hour of need, no one at HHS could get

on a shuttle or a train and be here today with 2 weeks’ notice to

answer the questions of the sick responders.

Dr. Melius will have to explain the situation to us, since the government decided not to show. And, as I mentioned earlier, the consequences of the administration’s decision will be felt not just in

States like California and Florida, but right here in New York as

well. And, while this committee deals with government contracting

and grants all the time, I think I need to explain in greater detail

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the problem that we may be facing at the local level because of the

administration’s decision.

My time for opening statements is up. I obviously feel very passionate about this, so I will put the remainder of my comments in

the record, because we need to get to the witnesses and hear their

stories.

Mr. TOWNS. Thank you, Congresswoman Maloney.

[The prepared statement of Hon. Carolyn B. Maloney follows:]

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Mr. TOWNS. Now I yield to Congressman Nadler, who has been

working very hard on this issue for quite some time. I want to

thank him, too, for helping keep this alive, because people are suffering and, of course, we have an obligation to respond, to make

certain that we do everything that we can to alleviate that suffering.

Congressman Nadler.

Mr. NADLER. Thank you. Let me begin by thanking you, Chairman Towns, for holding this hearing today and for the unanimous

consent of the committee for permitting me, a non-committee Member, to participate up here in this hearing regarding the Federal

Government’s continued malfeasance in the years after September

11th.

I am outraged to have to say it again, that the Bush administration has turned its back on the heroes of 9/11.

When the World Trade Center collapsed on September 11, 2001,

people came from every State in the Nation to aid in the massive

rescue and recovery effort at Ground Zero. FEMA deployed 20

Urban Search and Rescue task forces from 14 States, some as far

away as California, Arizona, Texas and Florida, to dig through the

rubble looking for survivors.

The first responders—firefighters, police officers, emergency medical personnel, ironworkers and others—did this amidst hundreds

of tons of asbestos, nearly half a million pounds of lead in the air,

and untold amounts of glass fibers, steel and concrete that formed

a massive cloud of toxic dust and smoke. Now, 6 years later, many

of these selfless men and women are sick as a result of their work

at Ground Zero. They are scattered across the country, many hundreds or thousands of miles away from the medical experts who are

best qualified to treat them. Others who once lived in New York

City have moved away, often because their illnesses were so severe.

For six long years, since shortly after 9/11 we have fought every

single day to force the Federal Government to acknowledge its own

responsibility and to provide health care for those people who have

become sick from 9/11. After six long years of shirking its responsibilities and denying the obvious facts, it seemed like the Bush administration was finally poised to take the first step toward establishing a coordinated treatment mechanism for rescue and recovery

workers who live outside the New York metropolitan area. The department of Health and Human Resources issued an RFP, Request

for Proposal, for a World Trade Center Business Process Center,

which would manage the enormously complicated task of medically

monitoring people outside the New York area who are suffering

from 9/11 related illnesses.

But now the administration has dropped the plan. It says Congress has not provided enough money. If saving the lives of first

responders requires more funds, the administration should have

asked Congress for more money. Look what it did. In the budget

request it made in January of last year, a year ago now, the administration asked for only $25 million when the estimates of the costs

were far higher. They asked for only $25 million. They said this

was a placeholder; that is to say, that they would come in with a

larger figure when they figured out what that figure should be.

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Needless to say, they were lying. They never came in with another figure. That placeholder was the only figure they ever came

in with. Congress, Carolyn, myself, others worked and got the

House of Representatives and the Senate to vote $521⁄2 million last

spring. Senator Clinton got another $56 million, a total of $108 million. The administration asked for $25, we got $108 million. When

it stood at $52 million, the administration said we are $56 million

short of being able to fund this proposal. We got another $56 million dollars because of Senator Clinton. They still killed the proposal.

The administration shows itself to be hypocritical. It wasn’t a

shortage of money. We got them the money and they still killed the

proposal and withdrew the RFP. The administration is yet again

ignoring its obligation to the living victims of 9/11. The White

House is again revictimizing the victims of that tragedy. The White

House is making itself complicit with the terrorists in victimizing

the victims who live here and elsewhere in the country.

Furthermore, providing health care to sick first responders

across the country is only one of several programs that must be put

in place if we are to fully recover from the environmental effects

of 9/11. We recently fought tooth and nail to provide funding for

the Centers of Excellence, who are doing such an incredible job of

providing care for people with a myriad of 9/11 related diseases. And as I said, we got $108 million of this year’s budget—the first

money to be provided in a regular appropriations bill—and for the

first time this Federal funding will be available not only to first responders but to everyone, residents, students and area workers,

whose health was affected by 9/11.

But this is not enough. Last year, Congresswoman Maloney and

Congressman Fossella and I introduced 9/11 Health and Compensation Act, which provides comprehensive health benefits to everyone whose health was affected 9/11, and we still need a comprehensive testing and cleaning plan to ensure that no one else will

be harmed by contamination in their homes, schools and offices in

Manhattan, Brooklyn, Queens and Jersey City, which have never

been properly decontaminated.

The World Trade Center Business Process Center is a crucial

piece of providing health care to thousands of people across the

country whose health was affected by 9/11.

As a Congressman who represents this area where the World

Trade Center once stood, I saw firsthand the incredible work the

first responders from all over the country did in the wake of 9/11.

We have a moral obligation to the living victims of 9/11. I urge the

administration to honor its commitment and move forward with

this program.

And I would simply observe, I don’t believe this is the worse

managed program. I believe this is the most deliberately sabotaged

program by the administration. Dr. John Agwunobi, who was an

excellent appointee, he tried to do his job; he is no longer there. Dr.

Howard tried to do his job. He has been summarily undermined,

we don’t know by whom. And, that’s why they won’t show up today.

We have a record of the lies, evasions, deceit and absence, and

that is why I think that Chairman Towns is going to have to utilize

the subpoena power in order to get to the bottom of this and begin

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to get to the truth of why this administration, why the Bush administration wants the victims of 9/11 to continue suffering without

adequate health care.

Thank you. I yield.

Mr. TOWNS. Thank you very much, Congress Nadler.

[The prepared statement of Hon. Jerrold Nadler follows:]

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Mr. TOWNS. At this time I would like to ask the witnesses to

please stand. We swear all our witnesses in.

Please raise your right hands.

[Witnesses sworn.]

Mr. TOWNS. Let the record reflect that all witnesses have been

sworn.

Let me give a little background on the witnesses. Joseph Libretti

is an ironworker. He worked on Ground Zero to recover body parts

and cut steel from September 11th to December 2001. He worked

90 hours a week. In 2002, he was diagnosed as suffering from

chronic lung disease and severe post traumatic stress disorder.

Now, he is too sick to work and has to travel more than 100 miles

from Pennsylvania to Mt. Sinai to get medical care.

Kevin Mount was a heavy equipment operator with the New

York City Department of Sanitation. He operated equipment at

Ground Zero and Fresh Kills landfill from September 11th to February 2002, when he was rushed to the hospital unable to breathe.

Frank Fraone is fire chief in Menlo Park, CA who came to

Ground Zero after 9/11 as part of Federal Urban Search and Rescue Team. He worked at Ground Zero for several weeks and now

has chronic breathing difficulties.

Cynthia Bascetta is currently the Director of Health Care Issues

for the Government Accountability Office. She has a wealth of experience in terms of analyzing and reporting on 9/11 issues and

other related issues relating to our Nation’s health.

Dr. Jim Melius is an occupational health physician and epidemiologist. He currently serves as the Chair of the Steering Committee for the World Trade Center Medical Monitoring and Treatment Program.

I will ask all the witnesses to summarize the testimony in 5 minutes, because I don’t think we have the lights—oh, we do have the

lights. Well, let me just explain the lights. It starts off on green,

and then it goes to yellow. Yellow means sum up and red means

stop. We’ve got the lights. OK, so we will start with you, Mr.

Libretti. Please proceed; 5 minutes.

STATEMENTS OF JOSEPH LIBRETTI, IRONWORKER, LOCAL

580, PENNSYLVANIA; KEVIN MOUNT, RETIRED HEAVY EQUIPMENT OPERATOR, NYC DEPARTMENT OF SANITATION; CYNTHIA BASCETTA, DIRECTOR, HEALTH CARE, GOVERNMENT

ACCOUNTABILITY OFFICE; JIM MELIUS, CHAIR, ADVISORY

BOARD, WTC MEDICAL MONITORING AND TREATMENT PROGRAM; AND FRANK FRAONE, OPERATIONS CHIEF, MENLO

PARK, CA, FIRE DEPARTMENT AND FEDERAL URBAN

SEARCH AND RESCUE TEAM

STATEMENT OF JOSEPH LIBRETTI

Mr. LIBRETTI. Congressman, I thank you for the pleasure of

being here. I want to thank you for your help.

Mr. TOWNS. Pull the mic a little closer to you, please.

Mr. LIBRETTI. Thank you for your support and your help in our

problems.

My name is Joseph Libretti. On September 11th, I was a rescue

and recovery worker volunteer. I resided in Pennsylvania, and arVerDate 11-MAY-2000 13:35 Jan 07, 2009 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00020 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 C:\DOCS\45628.TXT KATIE PsN: KATIE
17

rived at the World Trade Center the morning of the attack. We immediately started looking for survivors. We were provided paper

masks, which we used. We were told the air quality was safe all

along and that there were no problems.

I soon learned my brother Danny, a firefighter, responded too,

and now he was missing. We recovered him a month later. As a

result, I have lung disease and airway disease and suffer from post

traumatic stress syndrome. I had attempted suicide. I had to leave

my job as an ironworker, resulting in numerous financial hardships.

Basically, I don’t think of myself as hero. Most of the people I

worked with don’t think of themselves as heroes. The people that

died that day were the heroes, because they knew what was happening. Every year there is a parade and the workers are told,

‘‘Don’t march with the firemen. March over here.’’ That’s all well

and good. And I understand that most people don’t really understand what was going on down there.

But, this is my medication. This is what I take every morning:

three different breathers, a travel one if it gets worse. I have good

days, and I have bad days. People trying to help the rescue workers

are going out of their way. I don’t understand what the big problem

is. We have boys dying overseas, why? In my opinion, because of

September 11th.

We send billions of dollars to other countries. Are you going to

tell me that you can’t remember the people that did the work? I

don’t know who lied and I don’t care. As a result, the complications

damaged my health, my family. I don’t have insurance coverage for

my wife who can’t go to the doctor who has heart problems. That’s

one of those little glitches, but that’s my problem.

For 5 years, I had to fight to get medical coverage for myself.

When I couldn’t get things, I had to put it on my credit card, so

now I am in more debt. Traveling to New York, just to come to this

hearing, arrangements were made by people for this hearing, I appreciate it. But, to give you an idea: I took a bus. I started out at

4. The bus was packed. I waited for the next one. I had to take it.

No seats. I finally got on a bus at 7:30 and stood to come here and

got to Manhattan at 10:30.

Other days, I get up, I have a medical appointment, I don’t want

to go through that. I don’t even care. I shouldn’t have to. The paperwork and the runaround I get, it is like no one knows what is

going on.

I found out about a program that was put in by people like Senator Maloney and other Congressmen is over and done, and we

don’t know about it. I don’t see what the big problem is with this

government today. It is supposed to be our government. We are

supposed to protect Americans. We are not heroes. We are Americans. Americans went down to help Americans. All we are asking

is for to you do the right thing by us.

I would like to know why they didn’t show up or why they can’t

provide services. Basically, I don’t think it is fair at this point. Six

years later and you are still trying to fight for rights that you

should have. I don’t think I should have had to fight for 3 years

to get workers’ comp, because if you can’t get one thing, you can’t

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get the other. Without the help of Senator Maloney and other people, I probably would be flipping, and I don’t think this is right.

I am not a hero, I just want to be taken care of the way I tried

to take care of other people. And everyone I know that worked with

me feels the same way. We are not asking you for a handout. We

are not asking anybody for a handout. I want what is fair. I want

to be able take care of family like I have always done.

My quality of life has gone down. My family’s quality of life has

gone down. They are entitled to coverage; I can’t afford it. My kids

are entitled to go to college; I can’t afford it. That’s my problem,

but my problem was made by 9/11. Those little glitches, they

caused bigger problems. Somebody should know what to do. It is

6 years later. How much longer do you need?

Thank you.

Mr. TOWNS. Thank you, Mr. Libretti. Thank you so much for

your testimony and thank you for being here as well.

[The prepared statement of Mr. Libretti follows:]

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Mr. TOWNS. Mr. Mount.

STATEMENT OF KEVIN MOUNT

Mr. MOUNT. Good morning. Thank you for allowing me the opportunity to speak on behalf of the injured disabled 9/11 workers

and to address the need for the continuation of the World Trade

Center Medical Monitoring and Treatment Program.

I began working as a heavy equipment operator for the city of

New York Sanitation Department in 1980. I worked primarily at

the Fresh Kill landfill in Staten Island. When the World Trade

Center was attacked, I was 47 years old and just a few years away

from enjoying my retirement. Just prior to the attack, I had had

a complete physical and blood work and was found to be in excellent health. I was physically fit and enjoyed participating in a

number of sports primarily with my two sons who were 19 and 20

years old at the time.

On September 11, 2001, after the Twin Towers collapsed, I was

asked to participate in the rescue and recovery efforts at Ground

Zero. It was with a profound sense of patriotism and compassion

for the thousands of victims and their families that I immediately

agreed to help in whatever way I could. Needless to say, the task

was monumental.

I arrived at Ground Zero on September 12th, and the amount of

destruction caused by the brutal attack was overwhelming. In addition to the collapse of the World Trade Center towers, numerous

other buildings at the site were destroyed or badly damaged. The

streets appeared war torn with tons of debris spread as far as I

could see. The air was thick with dust and smoke from the surrounding fire, made breathing very difficult. And although there

has been much speculation regarding the availability of respirators

and other Hazmat gear, I was offered nothing more than a paper

dust mask.

I worked 14 hours a day, 7 days a week. The state-of-the-art decontamination tank built on the site was used strictly by the privileged workers. Never anyone from my department. The dust picked

up by us while we worked, came home with us at the end of the

shift.

My primary responsibility while at Ground Zero was to remove

debris that had been hand searched by other first responders and

transport it several blocks away where it was eventually shipped

by barges and by trucks to the Staten Island landfill. Two weeks

after the attack, I and my coworkers were transferred from Ground

Zero to Fresh Kills to continue the search and recovery operation.

I had expected working conditions to improve from Ground Zero,

but in actuality, they were much worse. 1.4 million tons of World

Trade Center debris was processed at the landfill at a rate of approximately 5,000 tons a day. The air was so thick with concrete

dust and other particles that there were times that I couldn’t see

more than a couple of feet in front of me. Despite requests for protective gear, I continued to work with nothing more than a paper

dust mask.

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lems, gastric problems, nose bleeds, etc. I continued to work 12

hours a day, 7 days a week. My first day off was Thanksgiving, 72

days after the collapse of the World Trade Center. If I am not mistaken, my second day off was Christmas.

While at the landfill, I was assigned to work in a restricted,

spreading debris from Building 7. Once it was spread, workers

from different city, State and Federal agencies would sift through

it for evidence and personal property, etc. When they were done

sifting and searching, the layer of debris was removed and another

layer was spread. Before its collapse, Building 7 had been a temporary morgue and included in its debris numerous body parts. The

machine that I had been assigned to work with had been at

Ground Zero since 9/11 and was covered inside and outside with

dust. It was an old machine and not equipped with proper air filtration system and was neither cleaned nor decontaminated before

I began using it.

Although I had been coughing since sometime in September, I

had begun to feel extremely sick and I suffered from intense weakness, fatigue and headaches, shortness of breath and difficulty

breathing. The coughing became relentless. On February 19, 2002,

I was brought to the emergency room of our local hospital and was

admitted for difficulty breathing, extreme fatigue, a burning sensation in my trachea and a temperature of 103. I was treated with

IV antibiotics and steroids and received daily lung treatments. I

was diagnosed with asthma, acute Hepatitis C and sinusitis. The

discomfort in my trachea was determined to be burns from the

caustic materials I had been inhaling. I remained in the hospital

for 5 days and left knowing that my life would never be the same.

I knew I was too sick to continue working and my dreams for the

future were irrevocably changed.

When I returned home from the hospital, my life was in turmoil.

I had just been diagnosed with major health problems and had to

find a way to accept it. It wasn’t easy. For the first time in my life,

I had to rely on daily medications and inhalers to breathe. I was

inundated with doctors appointments, lab appointments and test

appointments. Adding to my problems, my sinuses were impacted

due to the heavy volume of dust that I had been breathing and the

pressure from the impacted sinuses caused my left eardrum to collapse, leaving me with diminished hearing and constant ringing in

my ear. I became distraught with the knowledge that had protective equipment been afforded me, I would still be in good health.

I started feeling depressed and later became filled with rage. I now

suffer from psychological trauma, which to this day I continue to

take medication for.

Initially I placed my health problems in the hands of local specialists. Although they were competent physicians and leaders in

their fields, they had no idea how my involvement in the 9/11 aftermath could have caused such major health problems. They had no

knowledge of the toxins released into the air after the collapse of

the towers and were unable to adequately answer my questions. I

began to feel like a lab experiment and that my care was based on

trial and error.

Mr. TOWNS. Mr. Mount, could you summarize.

Mr. MOUNT. Well, you guys went past—I’m sorry.

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I began to feel like a lab experiment. Sometime in early March,

my wife testified on my behalf at a hearing held by Congressman

Nadler and listened to testimony given by Dr. Steven Levin, Chairman of the World Trade Center Medical Monitoring Program. She

spoke with him regarding my condition, and he agreed to see me.

I thank God every day for his presence in my life. If not for his

care and concern for my well being, I don’t know where I would be

today. He not only treated my pulmonary and gastric problems, he

referred me to doctors within the program who addressed my other

needs. For the first time since I had become ill, there was coordination of health care among my health care professionals.

Do you want me to just hand this in?

Mr. TOWNS. Yes. Your entire statement will be included in the

record.

Mr. MOUNT. OK, so you want me to stop?

Mr. TOWNS. Yes, so we have time to ask some questions later on.

Thank you.

[The prepared statement of Mr. Mount follows:]

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Mr. TOWNS. Ms. Bascetta.

STATEMENT OF CYNTHIA BASCETTA

Ms. BASCETTA. Mr. Chairman and members of the subcommittee,

thank you for inviting me to testify today about the continuing

need for HHS to improve health services for World Trade Center

responders including those who reside outside the New York City

metropolitan area.

As you know, thousands of responders came from across the

country and risked their lives in the aftermath of the September

11th attack. Like local responders, they need screening and monitoring to determine whether they have suffered any adverse health

effects, and many of them also need treatment for illnesses that resulted from their rescue, recovery and clean-up activity.

We have reported several times about problems in the program

established for these responders, including the national program

intended to set up a network to provide services comparable to

those available in the New York City area. In 2007, we found that

NIOSH had once again taken steps toward expanding the availability of screening and monitoring for the national program but its efforts were not complete. Given its stop and start history, we were

concerned that HHS might not succeed in establishing and sustaining a smoothly functioning national program.

Accordingly, we recommended that the Secretary take expeditious action to ensure the availability of health screening and monitoring services for all people who responded on September 11th,

regardless of where they reside. In its comments on our draft report, HHS was silent about this recommendation and the Department has still not reported on whether it concurs, and, if so, how

it intends to implement our recommendation.

The most recent solicitation to set up a business process center

could have been a vehicle to begin to implement our recommendation and HHS may yet take other actions consistent with our recommendations; however, the fulfillment of the solicitation, especially without any other plan in place, raises serious questions

about how HHS intends to prevent the same kind of service interruptions that have characterized its past performance, most importantly, how HHS plans to ensure continuous screening and monitoring now provided by QTC when its contract expires in June

2008, and how will HHS ensure treatment services for responders

in the national program after March 2008 when Red Cross funding

is due to run out.

In previous testimony and in our ongoing work for you and others on lessons learned from September 11th response, we noted,

among other things, the importance of standardized exams and

data collection for all responders to ensure the strongest epidemiological research base as well as equitable access to the best treatment across the country for all responders who may experience deterioration in their health.

While HHS could still achieve this in a national program, the

steps they appear to be taking in this direction in the solicitation

have now been, once again, placed on hold. It is incumbent upon

the department to explain whether this approach would have imVerDate 11-MAY-2000 13:35 Jan 07, 2009 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00031 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 C:\DOCS\45628.TXT KATIE PsN: KATIE
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plemented our recommendation, and, if so, what it intends to do instead.

That concludes my statement. I would be happy to answer any

of your questions.

Mr. TOWNS. Thank you very much, Ms. Bascetta.

[The prepared statement of Ms. Bascetta follows:]

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Mr. TOWNS. Let me just indicate the fact that we have been

joined by Congressman Fossella. We will hear from him a little

later on.

Dr. Melius.

STATEMENT OF JIM MELIUS

Dr. MELIUS. Thank you.

I am Jim Melius, an occupational health physician who currently

works for the New York State Laborers’ Health and Safety Trust

Fund. Prior to this job, I spent over 15 years working for the governmental agencies, first for NIOSH, the National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health, and then the New York State Department of Health. While working for both of those agencies, I had

experience developing, preparing and reviewing government contracts and grants, including contracts for occupational medical

services of the type covered by this program.

I also for the past 4 years served as chairman for the Steering

Committee for World Trade Center Medical Monitoring and Treatment Program. This committee meets monthly to oversee and review the program, so I am very familiar with the activities and

what is happening with the current program that is underway.

On October 23rd of last year, CDC, on behalf of NIOSH, released

a solicitation for a contract to provide various administrative and

medical services for this program. A meeting with prospective bidders was held in New York City on November 7th. Applications

were due on December 19th. As we all know, on December 13th,

CDC abruptly canceled the solicitation, giving a variety of different

reasons for its decision. This cancellation has potentially serious

consequences on the ability of the Federal Government to provide

the medical services needed by thousands of responders and other

groups who worked at the World Trade Center site in the aftermath of September 11th.

I would like to briefly review the contents of the solicitation and

the potential consequences of the cancelation for the many responders and other workers whose health has been endangered by their

work at the World Trade Center.

Currently, the program is funded through grants through a variety of institutions, including the New York City Fire Death, Mt.

Sinai and a number of other academic institutions to provide monitoring and treatment for the services. This solicitation from CDC

and NIOSH was directed at outside firms. It was designed to supplement the current grants program, and it would do so by establishing a Business Processing Center that would administer reimbursements to medical institutions provided throughout the country who were providing monitoring or treatment services as part of

this program.

It would encompass all of the current providers with the exception of the New York City Fire Department. This outside entity

would also help locate providers across the country who provide

these services. One of the problems that has been faced by the various entities involved—and we have been able to document this—

has been difficulty in finding providers who are experienced and

have the capability to help people from all 50 States that are involved in this program.

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The program also provides pharmaceutical benefit services for

people in the program and would also provide a number of other

informational and member services that would assist in the program. As you have already reviewed, the CDC abruptly canceled

the solicitation just 6 days before the applications were due. They

gave a variety of reasons for that. In my testimony, I outline some

of these reasons and really find them to be very weak and they

really don’t adequately explain the reasons for this, especially

given the consequences of canceling this contract.

One reason was that funding wasn’t available. As you have all

already said, the full appropriation was passed only a few weeks

after this cancelation, so the money would have been available. It

is not unusual for the Federal Government to put out a solicitation

for a contract in anticipation of moneys becoming available. If moneys aren’t available, then they can go ahead and cancel that particular contract or not decide to award it.

There were also concerns raised about whether this program

should be—whether the Federal money should be what we call the

first payor. Currently, other than for workers’ compensation payments, the Federal Government covers all the cost of medical care

for World Trade Center related conditions. CDC was raising issues

of whether people’s health insurance shouldn’t be involved. For a

variety of reasons that have been testified to before the various

committees, that doesn’t make sense for the program. It would lead

to serious deterioration in services for the program.

Most important and what I would like to spend my remaining

time on is really the consequences of canceling this solicitation. As

has been already said, the main impact of the cancelation will be

on services for national responders. That’s the several thousand

people across the country who are currently getting monitored or

receiving treatment through this program. Their treatment is being

funded not by the Federal Government, but by the Red Cross.

The Red Cross has decided they will no longer support this program. They have already done it for many years and they have

good reason to turn it over to the Federal Government at this point

in time. Their money runs out in March. They may extend it an

extra month to two, but for the several hundred people who are

currently receiving treatment through that program, their funding

will cease. They will no longer be able to get treatment unless they

are willing to come to New York City to receive it from one of the

institutions that are currently funded.

In fact, under the program, the organization arranging that care

will have to send letters to all the responders in the program explaining to them that they will no longer be covered. And this will

be very disruptive of their care and I think, will have serious medical consequences for many of the responders.

Funding for the monitoring of people living outside the New York

City area is also jeopardized. As GAO has already said—Cynthia

said—that funding is through a contract with an organization

called QTC. That is done through a modification of the current

grants program to Mt. Sinai. That will need to be renewed for a

large amount of money. It is also probably not adequate to cover

all current national responders. So it could very well be that by

June of this year there will be, in addition to no treatment for naVerDate 11-MAY-2000 13:35 Jan 07, 2009 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00049 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 C:\DOCS\45628.TXT KATIE PsN: KATIE
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tional responders, there will be no monitoring for national responders. The examinations that they need to monitor their health to detect these conditions will not be available.

There are also some informational needs for the program to understand what the money is being spent on, what medical treatment and how much does it cost. Better information has been

asked for by both HHS and by Congress. That information will not

be available. The pharmaceutical benefits for the current responders are handled through each participating institution now. So

there are six separate programs. That’s not very efficient and setting up a single pharmaceutical benefit manager to handle everybody in the program would be much more efficient and more beneficial for the participants. They wouldn’t have to travel as for to get

prescriptions filled and it would be much easier for them.

Finally, there is, I think, the whole issue of what happens to the

current program even in the New York City region. We have the

institutions that provide that coverage. Their contracts or their

grants were 5-year grants, they run out in roughly mid 2009. If the

original funding program was not adequate, particularly the treatment parts of payments that were required for these institutions

providing treatment, so these grants need to constantly be modified

to provide additional moneys.

There are limitations. There are rules within the Federal Government in order to foster competition and make sure that the government money is being spent carefully and wisely, that usually

limit how much modification can be done, particularly in the last

year of the program. And if nothing is done, if these programs are

just left in place, we face the possibility that modifications that are

needed to provide for treatment, to pay for treatment, will not be

made, and, therefore, these institutions will no longer be able to

provide treatment.

We’ve already had one instance, it was a New Jersey Medical

Center where that has taken place, where it required a modification for them to be able to continue treatment. We face that very

shortly at Mt. Sinai Medical Center also. And we will face it, I

think, several more times before these current grants run out.

We also have the issue that the current appropriations provides

funding for residents and workers of the downtown area who are

not eligible for the current program. That will require some sort of

a new solicitation. If the current administration is not going to take

any steps at all for any new grants or contracts for this program,

then there is a budget on how will that money be made available

to Bellevue, Elmhurst and the other institutions involved to provide monitoring and treatment services for the residents, students

and those workers.

So I think with the failure of, you know, the cancelation of this

solicitation, has really a dramatic potential for totally disrupting

the program. We could face a crisis. I don’t know when. I hope it

doesn’t occur, but we can very easily foresee at some time in the

next several months, we will face a crisis, where there will not be

adequate funding available at one of the institutions to provide the

monitoring and treatment, where the patients are being treated at

that facility will have to be told that they need to either rely on

their health insurance or find some other source of reimbursement

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for their care. And, I think this will have very serious consequences

for, obviously, the overall program as well as for the health of the

participants.

In summary, again, I would repeat some of what I said at the

last hearing with you, Chairman Towns. We need a comprehensive

solution to this problem. We need for the administration to take

the steps over the next few months to make sure that the program

can continue until some new arrangements can be made. We definitely have a crisis coming with the responders living outside the

New York City area. There needs to be some arrangements made

to provide them with treatment as well as with monitoring.

But even within the New York City area, we need to make sure

that we can keep the program going, while we can establish both

new arrangements for the current funding as well as a more permanent solution be put in place. I greatly appreciate all of your efforts in working, not only in keeping the present program going,

expanding it to include the residents and downtown workers, but

also looking for a permanent solution that will provide the kind of

care and treatment that these people deserve.

I think that what we have heard already from the responders

who came here today—you see how disruptive this will potentially

be for them. We must take all steps that we can to avoid this.

Thank you.

Mr. TOWNS. Thank you, Dr. Melius. Thank you very much for

your testimony.

[The prepared statement of Mr. Melius follows:]

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Mr. TOWNS. Mr. Fraone.

STATEMENT OF FRANK FRAONE

Mr. FRAONE. I want to thank you, Congressman Towns, Congresswoman Maloney, Congressman Nadler, Congressman Fossella

and the House of Representatives for supporting the issue of medical screening and workers’ compensation for rescue workers.

My name is Frank Fraone, I am a 27 year veterans of the Menlo

Park Fire District. Currently I hold the position of Division Chief

in charge of Operations. I am also the program manager for the

Homeland Security, FEMA, Urban Search and Rescue Team based

out of Menlo Park, CA, California Task Force 3. I have been a

member of California Task Force 3 since inception in 1991. As a

member of California Task Force 3 and FEMA Urban Search and

Rescue Incident Support Team, I have been deployed to many State

disasters including the Northridge earthquake, Oklahoma City

bombing, the California floods and the World Trade Center. I also

was deployed to Hurricane Georges, Hurricane Charlie, Francis,

Ivan, Dennis, Katrina, and most recently, the Greensburg, KS Tornado.

Each event in itself is significant to those affected and to the rescue workers who responded. For me, one event stands out overall

because of the impact on my fellow firefighters and the lasting

medical concerns that affected me.

On September 11, 2001, I was already deployed on a large scale

wildland fire in Calaveras County, CA. I returned home on September 14th only to be deployed out on September 16th to the World

Trade Center on the FEMA Incident Support Team as Branch Operations Chief. Prior to deployment, I received a medical exam. At

that time I had no medical ailments, injuries or sickness.

I spent the next 12 days, 16 hours a day on the rubble pile at

the World Trade Center. I was assigned nighttime operations between Buildings 4 and 5 in the West Sector. I was charged with

coordinating the efforts of the both FEMA search and rescue teams,

international rescue teams, State rescue teams, ironworkers with

my colleague next to me that I worked on the pile with, and liaison

with the Port Authority FDNY. I spent the majority of my time on

the pile or between 4 and 5 at my command post. At about day 10,

I started losing my voice, coughing and experiencing prolonged

headaches.

After returning home, I was experiencing chronic coughing and

shortness of breath. I was examined by three different physicians

over a 6-month time period, placed on a variety of medications and

breathing treatments. Eventually Dr. Joe Zammuto diagnosed me

with lower respiratory disease. I continued the chronic coughing for

9 straight months before it subsided.

The shortness of breath and coughing are exacerbated when exposed to smoke, dust or strenuous activity. I currently have two

different types of inhalers that I use when these episodes occur.

Of the 67 members who responded from California Task Force 3,

70 percent experienced illness, including shortness of breath,

chronic coughing, pneumonia, nose bleeds and long-lasting severe

colds. A few months after returning, our then program manager

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ing Program. It took Chief Schapelhouman over a year before a

phone call was returned to him. It took a second year before he

could convince the program coordinators to accept us and allow a

local physician to perform the evaluations.

Originally the only facility that they would allow us was in

Napa, CA. Napa is a minimum 2-hour drive from our home facility.

Eventually agreements were made with a local health care provider

to perform the annual evaluations. I and many of our teammates

currently participate in medical monitoring evaluation. Due to

HIPPA issues, it has become increasingly more difficult to obtain

the actual number of participants in the program.

In the Federal system approximately 1,414 FEMA and Urban

Search Rescue members responded to the World Trade Center to

support the search and rescue efforts. Approximately 592 responders opened Federal workers’ comp claims. Many of these claims

were closed out in just 2 months. Most of the claimants were frustrated and confused in working through this process. Many of the

claimants abandoned the Federal workers’ comp efforts and used

their own health care provider. However, Federal workers’ compensation only covers 66 and 2/3 percent of your claim.

On December 20, 2007, the Board of Directors of Menlo Park

Fire Protection District passed a resolution declaring members of

the District who respond to a Federal disaster will be covered

under our department’s workers’ compensation and insurance. This

will assure our department members are covered the same whether

injured in Menlo Park, CA or New York City.

Chairman Towns, we need a national program that will provide

responders who came to New York and were exposed to toxins at

Ground Zero the medical monitoring and treatment we need. It is

very disheartening to hear that the administration seems to be

standing in the way and not working to get us the help we do need.

We need not only health care, we also need to be compensated

for our injuries. I know that Representative Maloney, along with

you, Chairman Towns, and Mr. Nadler and Mr. Fossella, are working on pushing legislation H.R. 3543 that will make sure that we

have long term monitoring and treatment and be compensated for

our injuries for everyone, including myself and those who came

from across the country to help. This legislation is supported by the

national firefighters union as well as AFL–CIO.

It is very important to myself, as well as the many rescue workers who responded to the World Trade Center, to continue the medical monitoring program. Although acute medical problems have

been well documented this morning, the long-term effects are uncertain so we need a stable national program.

I also want to mention two other bills, H.R. 4158 and H.R. 4183

that will, also, help support and protect specifically Urban Search

and Rescue workers like myself who were injured while on deployment.

In closing, it has been my distinct honor and privilege to serve

the members of my community and the citizens of the United

States in their times of greatest need. I hope that the Members of

Congress will see fit to protect those who give their lives to protect

and serve others.

Thank you, sir.

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Mr. TOWNS. Thank you so much for your testimony. We really

appreciate your coming all the way from California. Thank you so

much.

[The prepared statement of Mr. Fraone follows:]

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Mr. TOWNS. At this time before we go on to questions, I would

like it give Congressman Fossella an opportunity for an opening

statement.

Congressman.

Mr. FOSSELLA. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I will submit my formal remarks for the record. I would just like to thank the witnesses for coming once again. Thank you for holding this hearing,

as well as my colleagues, Ms. Maloney and Mr. Nadler, being forceful advocates for putting in place what should have been put in

place a long time ago, a comprehensive national plan.

Thank you, Chief, for coming across the country. Thank you for

your service.

Mr. FRAONE. Thank you, sir.

Mr. FOSSELLA. The tragedy of 9/11 is a big book and there are

many great chapters and there are going to be some sad chapters.

And this is a sad, sad chapter in the history of September 11th;

that is, the failure of HHS to adequately and appropriately step up

and serve the needs of those who were willing to give their life on

September 11th and the days and weeks that followed.

As has been mentioned, the possibility, the potential of a giant

hole in which hundreds of thousands of individuals could fall into

unless and until HHS comes forward—they should consider calling

themselves Human Services, because the health aspect of their

mission right now seems to be missing.

As we have stated repeatedly, rather than being dragged into, in

this case a courtroom, to provide a solution to the problem, we find

them running and hiding. And it’s one thing to disagree with perhaps a suggestion as to how to solve the problem and to just say

no may not be a nice public relations ploy, but to just say no to

the men and women who risked their lives and now need our help

is not an appropriate position for the Department of Health and

Human Services.

So it is our intention to keep this fire glowing. It is our intention

to impress upon HHS and anyone else who will listen that we need

a specific Federal mandate here, and I would just like to thank you

for convening this, and thank you all for coming.

Mr. TOWNS. Thank you very much, Congressman Fossella.

And I would also like to recognize Rabbi Nederman and the class

from Williamsburg, the Williams School. That is an area that was

affected by 9–11 smoke. Thank you for coming as well and being

part of this hearing.

Let me just move along. I will begin with you, Ms. Bascetta. In

2004 you made recommendations to HHS, and in your statement

today, you said that HHS has not yet responded to your recommendations.

What is HHS’s obligation to respond to your recommendations?

Ms. BASCETTA. The first opportunity to comment is when we submit the draft report to them. As I mentioned, they were silent. But

after our report is issued to any agency that contains recommendations from GAO, there is a statutory retirement that is laid out in

31, U.S. Code, Section 720, for HHS to report to the Senate, Homeland Security, Governmental Affairs Committee, and to your full

committee, House Oversight and Government Reform, and they

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have 60 days in which to make this response, so they are well overdue.

They, of course, don’t need to agree with our recommendations,

but if they don’t, they need to say why they do not, and if they do

concur, they need to lay out how they intend to implement the recommendations.

Mr. TOWNS. Thank you.

Can you discuss the importance of a national program and describe the current and future effects of the continuing problem in

providing services for responders outside the New York City area?

Ms. BASCETTA. Yes. As you have heard from many of the other

witnesses, the importance of covering the entire population who responded can’t be understated, from both a research perspective,

but, more importantly, from the perspective of the equity of access

to screening, monitoring and treatment, if it’s needed.

We are very concerned about the precedent that it would set for

any future disasters to have such an ad hoc and uncoordinated approach, to taking care of the responders who risked their very lives

and their health.

The other factor here, as has also been mentioned, is that many

of the responders who live here will be retiring either for health

reasons or other reasons and will be moving outside of the New

York City area. So the impact in terms of the growth of the population on the monitoring and continuing to stay abreast of health

effects to provide the best treatments possible will only grow overtime, so it’s very important that this program be established.

Mr. TOWNS. Thank you very much for your work and thank you

for your comments as well.

Chief Fraone, I am concerned because if firefighters learn about

the treatment of those who came to the rescue, they learn about

how you are being treated, do you think that they will be eager to

continue with an Urban Search and Rescue Team? Will they still

want to do this when they hear about how you have been treated?

Mr. FRAONE. That’s our No. 1 concern right now, is to sustain the

workers in the system, because of the workers’ compensation issue

and the coverage. We are losing firefighters and people are reluctant to join the team because of these issues that occur after the

fact. It is an issue, a major issue.

Mr. TOWNS. I am concerned if they hear how you are being treated, if they would be interested in continuing to provide this kind

of service. And, of course, that would be the worst things that could

happen.

Mr. FRAONE. We are very dedicated men and women throughout

the country. We have 5,000 members in the Urban Search and Rescue System and one of our difficulties right now is sustaining the

system because of these particular issues of compensation, medical

claims, the followups and just the effects of Federal funding.

Mr. TOWNS. Mr. Libretti, you have to come all way back from

Pennsylvania to New York for treatment?

Mr. LIBRETTI. Yes, I did, until recently when I got Medicare, Social Security Medicare. I saw a pulmonologist in Pennsylvania and

that became confusing, too, because he would send me bills to be

paid and I would say ‘‘Why do I have to pay the bills?’’ After a

while it becomes more difficult.

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I get my medication from the Injured Workers Pharmacy, but

that’s only the medication from 9/11. And because there are

glitches, they don’t cover this. My diabetes medicine was not covered by 9/11. So up until I got Medicare, it was costing my $560

a month for pills, and that’s on me. And when I had my union coverage and I worked, I had no problem with coverage, medical, dental, whatever. Now I am covered, but my family is not. I don’t

think that’s fair.

Basically, I’d rather keep my family covered than me. My son is

16. He had braces when—it gets so frustrating because at 9/11, my

daughter was in college, first year she got braces, the union would

pick up half that cost. After 9/11, because I couldn’t work, her

braces had to come off. That cost falls on me. It’s my daughter.

Same thing with my 16 year old son, that cost falls on me. From

taking all this medication for the last 6 years, all my teeth fell out

in the last 3 years. I go to another doctor, he says, ‘‘Yeah, that

medication has side effects.’’ You know what, I don’t have dental.

These things are not covered. No one addresses them.

It is not just victims, it’s their families. They lose all their protection and you are told that’s a glitch. It falls between the cracks. So

if people get frustrated, it is like everything else, what do you do?

You talk to this person. You talk to that person. No one has answers. It’s depressing and it is not fair.

I am not saying there are not people out there trying to get

something they don’t deserve, but when people have medical

records, why are they being jerked around basically? There is no

reason for that. I can understand people trying to get over—that’s

the world. But when you go to your doctors and the doctors from

Mt. Sinai say, ‘‘You have chronic lung disease from 9/11. You have

this from 911,’’ and now you have to fight to get everything else

that you should get. Why did I have to fight 31⁄2 years to get workers’ comp?

If it wasn’t for Congresswoman Maloney and Scotty Hill and

some other people that were dedicated to the 9/11 workers. You

have the mayor spending $225 million fighting people putting in

claims for money that was issued to give workers’ comp from 9/11.

That don’t make sense.

Yes, there is fraud in everything, but you know what, there is

legitimacy too, and when you just white wash the whole thing, it

ain’t right.

Mr. TOWNS. Let me thank you again for your service and thank

you for your commitment and dedication. This is the reason why

HHS should be here. They need to hear the stories. They need to

hear what is really going on.

And it really bothers me, the fact that they are not here. And

when I listen to Ms. Bascetta in terms of how they have not responded to her, I need to make it very clear, HHS, we are not going

to go away. As long as we hear stories like this, people being mistreated, you can be assured that we are going to be there for them.

And, I am telling you, whatever it takes to bring you to the table,

we are going to bring you to the table. And, I just want to make

that clear so they will know that we are not going to go away.

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They think the stalling tactic is going to work. It is not going to

work. You are talking about people are dying; you are talking

about their life, their family. I am not going to walk away from it.

On that note, I yield to my colleague, Congresswoman Maloney.

Mrs. MALONEY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for that very strong

statement. In line with your comments, at the State of the Union,

which is this coming Monday, my colleagues and I on this panel

have given our State of the Union tickets to sick workers from 9/

11 so that their presence at the State of the Union address to

Members of Congress, to the administration, to remind them that

men and women, our heroes and heroines, are still sick.

When I tell people that I represent constituents and that there

are people out there like the three panelists today that risked their

lives and their health to help New York, to help save lives of others

and to help us recover, and that they are sick, do not have health

care, they can’t believe it. They can’t believe that the wealthiest

and strongest country in the world is not providing health care to

the men and women who rushed to save lives on 9/11.

Instead of fighting to provide health care, we see the administration fighting to end the program. Why else would they pull the Request for Proposal that sets up the business center that would provide the care? So I would like to ask the three responders—first,

I would like thank you for your service and for your sacrifice and

for being here today, but I would like to ask you if you think the

response from the Federal Government has been adequate.

And I will start with Mr. Mount, Mr. Libretti and then Chief

Fraone.

Mr. MOUNT. Well, as far as the Federal Government goes, the

Victims Compensation Fund was probably the best run program or

agency that I have come up against. Everybody else is built to send

you away, they don’t want you and they want you to just go away.

I mean, I have gone to workers’ comp I think it was 31⁄2 years. I

am still—well, you are asking me Federal?

Mrs. MALONEY. Federal.

Mr. MOUNT. I’m sorry.

The Victims Compensation Fund I thought was handled with a

lot of dignity and a lot of respect. You have the proof and they accept it. But I don’t see anything. All I hear is people are cutting

funds off. Everything that they do, if you cutoff the funds off,

there’s another meeting; it’s another month. But if you are dealing

in true life, life goes on minute-to-minute and day-by-day.

It’s discouraging and it makes you feel angry and sorry sometimes that you involved yourself.

Mrs. MALONEY. Mr. Libretti.

Mr. LIBRETTI. My feeling with the Federal Victims Compensation

Board—I didn’t even know about it. The only way I found out

about it was 2 weeks before the cutoff, and the doctor from Mt.

Sinai happened to be on vacation. He called Scotty Hill to ask him

if I knew about it, which I did not.

When I found out about it, I was told to get a lawyer. Everyone

I went to told me they wouldn’t take the case. Plus I didn’t have

the rest of my medical records, so I filled out the papers. And from

my understanding that I could read, if I was in the union and what

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I would have if I worked for the next 20 years. And they sent me

letters saying they were going to award me $60,000.

I thought that was absurd, because the Federal Victims Compensation Board did not take in any mental treatment; that was

not considered illness. But I am not a lawyer. I went through the

whole process and I couldn’t get a lawyer. No one would take the

case. They did give me $118,000 and I called them and said, ‘‘How

am I going to live the rest of my life on $118,000?’’ I got no answer.

So I did what I thought would protect my family, I paid my

house off. That lasted until 2006 when, finally, I had no more

money and my understanding of everything was at least I would

be compensated so that my family would have some sensibility of

the life they had before this happened, which it was not.

So now I have to play catch up. I put everything on credit cards

and I run around in circles. Do I think I was treated fairly? No.

Do I think inadequate information was given to rescue workers?

Yes, because I didn’t even know about half these programs and

then they were cutoff. Then they open them up. Meanwhile the

people tell you, ‘‘Do that.’’

I was told not to come here today by people because they said

the law case that I am on from 6 years ago could be jeopardized.

I don’t know. I am not here to make money because I want to get

rich. I made a very good living as an ironworker, OK. When you

are one-third of that, I guess I am not the mathematician I should

be. I can’t stretch $118,000 for 20 years.

Other people say I was nuts for going down the first time. I

didn’t know my brother was dead in the north tower at the time

that I went down. I was on 172nd Street and Second Avenue and

we watched the planes come over and we thought the first one was

a joke. Then we watched the next one come over, and the one over

Jersey hit the south tower and I watched the city go hysterical.

I walked down there and stayed there for 3 months. I went home

twice. I lived, ate and slept on that site. I was told the air quality

was fine. There was no protective gear. October 26th protective

gear was issued, which was wrong. Wrong this, wrong that.

You know what? If something happened tomorrow, they would be

right back down there. Other people with families told me, ‘‘You

jeopardized your family, your livelihood, for what? To get kicked in

the face.’’

I am old school. I am not perfect, but I believe I am an American.

I am not a hero and all the guys I know that I worked with, they

don’t want to be called heroes, because we are not. We are Americans. The heroes are the guys that died because of what happened

on 9/11. The young boys that get killed every day in Iraq, those are

heroes. We are just Americans. All we want is to be taken care of.

Mrs. MALONEY. We need to take care of you.

Chief.

Mr. FRAONE. It reminds me of the large-scale insurance agencies

that give you the run around, deny your claim until eventually you

give up. One of the issues that plagued us was our team spent an

additional $50,000 at that event for higher level respiratory protection for California Task Force 3. When we were denied reimbursement of that $50,000. Our fire department has eaten that, but we

did provide a higher level than was recommended down there.

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The simple answer to your question, did the Federal Government

do enough for us, the answer is no.

Mrs. MALONEY. Thank you.

I would like to place in the record with unanimous consent the

letter that my colleagues and I sent to Secretary Leavitt asking

why he canceled this important Request for Proposal that would

have gotten the money out through the Business Center to help

people.

Mr. TOWNS. Without objection.

Mrs. MALONEY. Dr. Melius, I would like to ask you if you could

explain the difference between the proposed Business Processing

Center, that contract, and the current contracts that are with the

Centers for Excellence?

Dr. MELIUS. Sure.

The current arrangement for the Centers for Excellence, Mt.

Sinai, is basically through a grant, where they, the Federal Government, provides money to these institutions for carrying out programs that provide medical monitoring and medical treatment for

the World Trade Center responders. And so, they provide an overall level of funding and they approve, for example, in the clinics,

rather than reimburse per visit as much as they reimburse by a

certain number of doctors in those clinics providing treatment. If

they have to go to specialists, they have ways of providing that, but

basically setting up the programs in the institutions to provide

that, which works fine within the institutions. There are some

issues regarding the need for information on costs and so forth that

are more difficult than those arrangements, but, overall, that process can work within the institutions. However, when people need

care outside that institution, then there is no mechanism for providing that care or it’s extremely difficult. So in that case, it is a

lot easier and provides better flexibility. In some ways, there are

better controls on reimbursement if it’s done under a contract

mechanism, which is the Business Processing Center.

The Business Processing Center contract would have allowed

them to set up an arrangement with any institution, hospital, medical practice or individual health care provider across the country

to provide medical exams and to provide treatment for a variety of

conditions.

Under the grant program, that is extremely difficult, if not impossible to do for the Centers of Excellence. Particularly, treatment, because treatment involves so many different specialists, different types of care. You have to locate people in different parts of

the country and there are a number of national businesses that are

set up to provide that care for insurance companies trying to health

the welfare fund that business trades unions have with their employers that provide flexibility to reimburse physicians and so forth

across the country. So the contract would have given much greater

flexibility, just much better information on individual services that

were being provided.

And, unfortunately, without that, as I have said, the treatment

program for people outside of the New York City area is extremely

difficult, if not impossible to set up. They needed other mechanisms. The Business Processing Center contract provided that

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mechanism. It cannot be provided by the Centers of Excellence.

They tried to do the Centers of Excellence; it just does not work.

Mrs. MALONEY. Do you mean to say that without the Business

Processing Center, someone unrelated to one of the Centers of Excellence, some government bureaucrat could just cut the money for

these Centers for Excellence and deprive service to people?

Dr. MELIUS. Absolutely. The other issue I raised is that with the

grants, because this program has grown so much. When the original grants were given 5 years ago, they were really just for medical

monitoring. Then the treatment money was provided.

They did not envision the level, the amount of money and the

level of services that would need to be provided. So those constantly have to be supplemented and modifications made to those

original grants to continue to provide money. Every time you make

that modification or change, you have to follow the rules of the bureaucracy, which are set up to prevent fraud and be fair in terms

of competition and so forth. So the rules have good reason for them;

however, they do limit the ability of NIOSH to continue to fund the

programs and make these modifications that are needed.

The current program this year, we are estimating for fiscal year

2008, just for the responders, not including residents and downtown workers and students, would cost something in the order of

$215 million. The $180 million that was recently appropriated plus

money already available would have covered that. I think it would

have been adequate, would have been able to cover at least to start

a program for residents and students and downtown workers also.

Mr. TOWNS. Thank you.

Congressman Nadler.

Mr. NADLER. Thank you.

Let me ask you, Ms. Bascetta, you said that the statute requires

that the agency respond to your audit within 60 days, and the

audit was completed when?

Ms. BASCETTA. July.

Mr. NADLER. And they have not yet responded.

Ms. BASCETTA. They have not.

Mr. NADLER. The 60 days was up in October?

Ms. BASCETTA. I don’t have the exact date, but, yes, approximately.

Mr. NADLER. What has been your general experience with Federal agencies? Do they generally reply within the 60 days?

Ms. BASCETTA. We don’t always get the letter to GAO. The letters go to the Center for Government Affairs and the House Reform

Committee, but we hear from them and they are more than often

on time.

Mr. NADLER. Would you say that this failure to respond by now

is unusual?

Ms. BASCETTA. It has happened but it is not a typical situation.

Mr. NADLER. So it’s unusual?

Ms. BASCETTA. Yes.

Mr. NADLER. And is there any mechanism that you or that anyone has to enforce them to respond.

Ms. BASCETTA. We do a repeat followup. The letter is not officially directed to us. It’s directed to the two congressional committees.

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Mr. NADLER. So the congressional committees would have to followup?

Ms. BASCETTA. Yes.

Mr. NADLER. Mr. Libretti, a number of questions from your testimony—and let me say that on behalf—I have no power, really, on

behalf of the government, but, nonetheless, let me apologize. It is

mortifying as a member of the Federal Government, albeit the legislative branch, not the executive branch, for me—every time we

have a hearing to hear, every time I talk to a first responder, to

hear the same shameful testimony of how we have victimized and

continue to victimize people who are innocent and are, in fact, heroes, including yourself.

Now, you said that you were told the air was safe to breathe.

Mr. LIBRETTI. Right.

Mr. NADLER. Who told you that?

Mr. LIBRETTI. The officials that were monitoring the site.

Mr. NADLER. Were they Federal officials.

Mr. LIBRETTI. State, Federal, I don’t know.

Mr. NADLER. And you were first issued protective equipment on

October 26th?

Mr. LIBRETTI. October 25th someone brought in a trailer.

Mr. NADLER. Before that, they were not available to you?

Mr. LIBRETTI. There was no need for it they said.

Mr. NADLER. The same officials said there was no need for them?

Mr. LIBRETTI. There was nothing wrong with the air.

Mr. NADLER. So when they testified to my subcommittee in June

that Federal officials were constantly warning all the workers that

the air was not safe to breathe, that they must, in fact, wear protection, and that the big problem was that the workers refused to

wear respiratory protection even though they had people walking

around to make sure they did it, this was not your experience?

Mr. LIBRETTI. Let me make this really perfectly clear. I was at

the site 9/11. I was one of the first group of people in the site. Until

the 18th, is my best recollection——

Mr. NADLER. September or October?

Mr. LIBRETTI. September. Before that it was voluntary search

and recovery, there was chaos, but controlled chaos. When they divided the site into four quarters and put four major companies in

charge of clean-up, rescue and recovery——

Mr. NADLER. On the 18th.

Mr. LIBRETTI. On the 18th.

We could not be on the site as a volunteer unless you were with

the Red Cross or one of the other volunteer groups, the Salvation

Army. You could not work onsite unless you were with one of the

companies.

I happened to go with AMAC which was doing the north tower,

because that is where I was told my brother went down. At that

time, guys were thinking there were still some survivors, you

know, a week later, 2 weeks later. If you could find somebody,

maybe they were trapped in a cavity. Guys did not take breaks to

go to the trailer to eat, so I went to the boat that was parked on

the dock and got the chef to make trays of food that I brought out

to the crane.

Mr. NADLER. Getting back to the respirators.

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Mr. LIBRETTI. I am getting back to that. Where we sat and we

ate, up until October 25th, everybody ate, firemen, rescue guys,

and nobody said nothing about a respirator until after October

25th. And 1 day we are sitting there eating and the Commissioners

who came over said, ‘‘You can’t eat out here.’’ And we said, ‘‘Since

when?’’ he said, ‘‘Since now.’’

I said, ‘‘We have been doing this for over a month.’’

‘‘Well, you can’t do it anymore.’’

Mr. NADLER. Let me ask you one other question, you said that

the state of art decontamination tent that was built on the site was

used strictly by privileged workers—I’m sorry, that’s Mr. Mount’s

testimony.

Thank you, Mr. Libretti.

Mr. Mount, you said that you continued to work with paper

masks until October 26th. You asked for respiratory equipment and

you couldn’t get it.

Who did you ask; do you know?

Mr. MOUNT. Well, we asked pretty much everybody. I spent 2

weeks downtown. The rest of the time I was in the landfill. And

there was a tent there with supplies in it and the police department handed out whatever it was. And every time we went, which

was daily, to get—the respirator they gave me in October, those filters were good for a half shift. So I got one filter change in 4

months.

Mr. NADLER. This is after October 26th?

Mr. MOUNT. Yes. The respirators were useless.

Mr. NADLER. And the Fresh Kills site was supervised by the city

or by the Federal Government.

Mr. MOUNT. If you were a private contractor or came in privately, you were controlled by FEMA and OSHA, but I worked for

the city of New York, almost like a kind of private contractor, because I don’t have same benefits as a city worker.

Mr. NADLER. So it was the city people who were basically in

charge there?

Mr. MOUNT. The city was in charge of me. FEMA and OSHA had

nothing to do with me.

Mr. NADLER. But they were in overall charge?

Mr. MOUNT. Yes. Except for the city workers.

Mr. NADLER. OK.

Mr. MOUNT. And can I just say something.

Mr. NADLER. Please.

Mr. MOUNT. I worked for months in a restricted area. I can tell

you what it says, ‘‘No work in here without gloves, goggles, tie

backs, boots,’’ the whole deal. I worked in that spot 12 hours a day

from when I got back, which was probably the end of September,

until I went in the hospital. I worked in that restricted box, every

single day, with OSHA and FEMA going by with monitors, and

never once was told or asked—or everybody I worked with had all

that equipment.

Mr. NADLER. Thank you.

Mr. Libretti, you said you asked lawyers repeatedly to take your

case and they wouldn’t do that. Very quickly, did they give you reasons why they wouldn’t take your case?

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Mr. LIBRETTI. Yes. Because it was so late, they couldn’t adequately look out for me and I could sue them.

Mr. NADLER. Because it was too late, that’s why?

Mr. LIBRETTI. Right.

Mr. NADLER. Final question, Dr. Melius, your testimony, in effect, is that by canceling the Business Center contract, the administration is doing the proper health care response for basically all

9/11 responders across the country?

Dr. MELIUS. Correct.

Mr. NADLER. Thank you very much.

The last question I will ask Mr. Libretti and Mr. Fraone, do you

think it’s fair to say that you have been betrayed by the government?

Mr. LIBRETTI. Betrayed, I don’t think—I think this.

Mr. NADLER. Let down by the government.

Mr. LIBRETTI. Let down, but I understand that there are people

trying to get over, you know what I mean, and you have to be cautious. But when the people who have the proof—you should eliminate them from the problems, shouldn’t you?

Mr. NADLER. Thank you.

Mr. Fraone.

Mr. FRAONE. As a civil servant, I have worked for the government; they provide the roof over my head for the past 27 years. I

don’t think I was betrayed. I don’t think they did what they should

to followup on this issue though.

Mr. MOUNT. Are you asking me?

Mr. NADLER. Yes.

Mr. MOUNT. I was definitely betrayed. Absolutely. There is no

reason why I should be sick. No reason at all. It was just—I didn’t

get sick in the first 3 days. It was just constant abuse and neglect.

I worked with people in complete uniforms and complete haz mat

gear, and I don’t believe they are sick and I think we were abused.

Mr. NADLER. Thank you. And thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. TOWNS. Thank you, Congressman Nadler.

Congressman Fossella.

Mr. FOSSELLA. Just one quick observation and one question. I

think it’s legitimate to ask the question that was asked earlier,

what happens in the event of the next tragedy? Will as many be

willing to rush here?

As someone who represents Staten Island and part of Brooklyn,

and I have had the privilege and have gotten to know many firefighters, many responders, who do what they do, I think, in many

instances because that’s the nature of their being; they are selfless

individuals. But by and large, what I find is, they believe, even if

they were willing to sacrifice or do give the ultimate sacrifice, that

there will be something in place to take care of their families.

Plenty of guys I know will say ‘‘As long as my family is taken

care of, I will be all right.’’ And that is, I think, the critical question. There will be many who do it, but I think what hasn’t happened in many instances, we are not taking care of those families.

We are not giving them piece of mind that I think is deserving of

them. And I think that is the fundamental question, that common

sense will dictate that maybe next time they will realize that my

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family is not going to be taken care of, that my financial well-being

is going to be put in jeopardy, why should I do this?

So I think we have to come to grips to answer that, not just now,

but in the future.

With respect to, and I think it’s been touched upon but, I think

it is important to note, ethically and how the grants are currently

written. Can you walk us through that process of the notification

in light of the fact that the Red Cross has announced that they will

no longer be providing coverage? What will happen over the next—

here we are the end of January, the next 2 to 3 months, for those

currently receiving under this umbrella?

Dr. MELIUS. What will happen—the usual process for those providing care for an individual patient or institutionally through a

program, is you are ethically, technically obligated as a medical

provider to let those patients know if for some reason you will no

longer be able provide them with that care or provide that treatment under the current way that you are providing it, that you are

being reimbursed for that care. So what will happen now with the

treatment program is very shortly they will calculate how much

money they have left from the Red Cross. If they have few hundred

thousand dollars to cover approximately 400 to 500 patients, I believe, under that treatment program, they will need to send out letters sometime within the next 30 to 60 days to all those people that

are covered by their current treatment program through the Red

Cross and administered through the American Organization of Occupational Environmental Health Clinics. They will send out the

letters notifying people that they can no longer provide care that

will be paid for by the Federal Government and those people will

have to either seek other ways of paying for that care or other providers to provide that care.

Similarly to the treatment, with the monitoring program, that

ends in June. Again, that’s not a single exam; that is repeated

exams every 12 to 18 months. They will need to—that program will

need to notify each individual person in that program that they

will no longer be able to provide care.

This was even discussed when the treatment program was first

funded. Dr. Agwunobi came here and wanted to be ready to send

letters already. So this is a usual part of the process. I think what’s

important is how disruptive and difficult it is for people who are

relying on that care. They have come to trust their physicians.

They are getting very good care, and they now have to seek out

other sources of care. Even for us as individuals, you know how disruptive it is to change providers. Think of if: you are very ill and

relying on this to really keep you alive and take care of you. So this

will be very, very difficult.

Mr. FOSSELLA. Other than the disruption and the notion that

there could be real discontinuance of services of physician providers, what will have to happen in order for that not to occur?

Dr. MELIUS. In order to prevent that, the people running that

program would need to feel that there was either an alternative

mechanism being set up, which is what this Business Processing

Center was. But, to actually see us develop this contract, the timing of this contract to be able go in place and provide that care

would have avoided this disruption that will take place in March

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or April of this year for those in the national treatment program.

It could have been implemented in time, so that could have avoided

sending the letters AOOEHC is sending now and this new business

entity would be providing and coordinating that care.

Similarly for the monitoring program—similarly the disruption to

any of the current Centers of Excellence. This would have been

avoided. This would have provided an umbrella mechanism for payment that would cover the whole program and assure that we could

have avoided these disruptions, as long as there was adequate Federal funding for the program.

Mr. FOSSELLA. My time is up. Thank you.

Mr. TOWNS. Thank you.

Let me just sum it up. Dr. Melius, I have great admiration and

respect for you. You have been around for a lot of years and have

done a lot of great things. I want to ask you a couple of questions.

First of all, if they had the money, they would not still be able

to get the insurance because of the preexisting condition. So, even

if they had the money, they would still be in trouble in terms of

getting coverage?

Dr. MELIUS. Correct. Providing coverage through private health

insurance is not an adequate substitute. The private health insurance also does not cover work-related conditions. Medicare does not

cover work-related conditions. Whenever a health provider fills out

an insurance form, the first question near the top is: Is this condition due to an automobile accident? Is it a work-related condition?

Check that off, no coverage.

And insurance agencies or even union health and welfare

funds—the health insurance fund is obligated, you know, they have

a fiduciary responsibility not to provide care or reimbursement for

work-related conditions. So there is no substitute other than a very

slow and a very difficult workers’ compensation process in order to

be able to provide coverage. And what happens there is that when

that coverage is delayed or disrupted or is more difficult. People

will just get sicker and we will have more and more people becoming disabled and unable to work, when we could have prevented it

by providing good medical services in a timely fashion.

Mr. TOWNS. My last question, Dr. Melius. In your experience

working for the State and Federal Government agencies, have you

ever known a situation where a contract was stopped 6 days before

and said that the reason they stopped it was due to the fact that

there was inadequate interest?

Dr. MELIUS. The only time I’ve ever personally seen that or experienced that so close to the contract—the applications being due—

the only time I have seen it is when, for some reason the program

is totally discontinued in a new budget, but certainly not when

there was funding available. This contract had a lot of flexibility

in terms of different parts of it could have been funded, other parts

could have been implemented later.

So in these circumstances, I just can’t imagine that there is a rational reason for stopping this contract. It is not the way government should run, or in my experience, the way that you manage

this type of program. I have never seen this level of mismanagement, stopping a program in its tracks without an alternative in

place.

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Mr. TOWNS. Let me thank all of you for your testimony. I really

want to thank you—yes, Mr. Libretti?

Mr. LIBRETTI. I just want to say, thank you for being here, but

I would like to point out that there are people in the government

that did do the best that they could with what they had. You know,

not everybody was neglectful. I don’t want that to be the end result

of the hearing.

Mr. TOWNS. We appreciate your comments. We definitely do, and,

of course, we recognize that some people in government did go beyond the call of duty. But I want you to know that I cannot overlook the fact that there is an empty chair there, that HHS did not

come to take a seat, and that bothers me.

When I hear the fact that the contract, 6 days before, was canceled, that bothers me. And when I hear the fact that they did not

respond, that bothers me. And the fact that this has been going on

for 6 years, that they have been stalling. Now, I have not been the

Chair of this committee for 6 years, but I must admit, if I had been

the Chair for 6 years, you can be assured that they would come to

the table before now. And that’s something that I am telling you,

that you can be assured that they will respond.

We have subpoena power, and let me tell you, if I have to go

after everything, whatever it is, we are going to get to the bottom

of this. We are going to do it, because I have listened to the testimony coming from you and, of course, you represent so many others out there who are not able to come here to talk, but you are

speaking for them.

And I want you to know, we are hearing you. We are hearing

you. We are hearing you. Thank you so much.

The subcommittee is adjourned.

[Whereupon, at 12:30 p.m., the subcommittee was adjourned.]

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