Future of Aviation Advisory Committee 

Labor and World-class Workforce Subcommittee 

Record of Meeting 

July 8, 2010 

Communications Workers of America (CWA) 

Washington, DC 

Public Announcement 

The U.S. Department of Transportation (DOT), Office of the Secretary of Transportation, told the 

public of this Future of Aviation Advisory Committee (FAAC) Labor and World-class Workforce 

Subcommittee meeting in a Federal Register notice published June 17, 2010 (75 FR 34520). 

Subcommittee Members in Attendance 

Patricia A. Friend 

(Subcommittee 

Chair) 

David Barger 

Thella F. Bo wens 

(by telephone) 

John M. Conley 

Robert L. Lekites 

Ana 

McAhron-Schulz 

Richard Pyatt 

(attending for 

Ms. Egnotovich) 

International President 

President and Chief Executive 

Officer 

President and Chief Executive 

Officer 

International Administrative 

Vice President and Air Transport 

Division Director 

President 

Director of Economic and 

Financial Analysis 

Vice President-Government 

Relations 

Association of Flight Attendants (AFA)-

C WA, American Federation of Labor and 

Congress of Industrial Organizations 

(AFL-CIO) 

JetBlue Airways Corporation (JetBlue) 

San Diego County Regional Airport 

Authority 

Transport Workers Union of America 

(TWU), AFL-CIO 

United Parcel Service (UPS) Airlines 

Air Line Pilots Association, International 

(ALPA) 

Goodrich Corporation (Goodrich) 

Subcommittee Members Not in Attendance 

Cynthia M. 

Egnotovich 

Segment President, Nacelles and Goodrich 

Interior Systems 

)ther Officials Present 

Christa Fornarotto 

Regis Milan 

(Alternate DFO) 

Deputy Assistant Secretary, 

Aviation and International Affairs 

Associate Director and Special 

Assistant to the Deputy Assistant 

U.S. Department of Transportation (DOT) 

DOT 
Marlise 

Streitmatter 

Terri Williams 

(Designated 

Federal Official 

(DFO)) 

Future of Aviation Advisory Committee 

Labor and World-class Workforce Subcommittee 

Record of Meeting 

JulyS, 2010 

Communications Workers of America (CWA) 

Washington, DC 

Secretary for Aviation and 

International Affairs 

Deputy Chief of Staff 

Director, Center for Organizational 

Excellence 

U.S. Department of Transportation (DOT) 

Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) 

Other Persons Present 

Jan (Jay) Aul 

Bob Bergman 

Chris Brown 

Mia Clarkson 

Greg Dellinger 

Bernard Diederich 

Wayne Donato 

John Donnelly 

Michelle Duquette 

Donna S. Gleason 

Jeffrey Goodell 

Mark Hansen 

Dean Hubbard 

Lauri Isbrandtsen 

Robert Land 

Anthony Thomas 

McCloud 

Lydia E. Mercado 

Neil Modzelewski 

Rick Pittaway 

Liz Spear 

Marlise 

Streitmatter 

FAA 

UPS 

United Air Lines, Inc. 

Transportation Trades Department, AFL-CIO 

AAR Corporation 

DOT, Office of the General Counsel 

United Steelworkers 

TWU, AFL-CIO 

MITRE Corporation Center for Advanced Aviation System Development 

(CAASD) 

The Boeing Company 

JetBlue 

FedEx Express 

TWU, AFL-CIO 

T. White Parker 

JetBlue 

FAA 

DOT Research and Innovative Technology Administration 

PAI Consulting 

DOT 

ALPA 

DOT 
Future of Aviation Advisory Committee 

Labor and World-class Workforce Subcommittee 

Record of Meeting 

July 8, 2010 

Communications Workers of America (CWA) 

Washington, DC 

BACKGROUND AND WELCOMING REMARKS 

This is the record of the first meeting of the Labor and World-class Workforce Subcommittee of the 

FAAC, a federal advisory committee formed pursuant to and subject to the requirements of the 

Federal Advisory Committee Act (FACA). 

Ms. Patricia A. Friend, Subcommittee Chair, AFA-CWA, called the meeting to order at 1:07 p.m. 

She welcomed the Subcommittee members and public in attendance. Ms. Friend then asked each of the 

Subcommittee members to introduce themselves. She introduced Ms. Terri Williams, FAA, the DFO 

for the meeting, and asked her to summarize FACA requirements. 

Ms. Williams noted that the meeting was being conducted under FACA, and outlined her own 

responsibilities as DFO, including maintaining information on costs and membership, ensuring 

efficient operations, and keeping publicly available records of FAAC activities. 

Ms. Williams noted that meetings of the Subcommittee are accessible to the public, and stated 

that interested persons have the opportunity to submit comments before each meeting either by 

email at faac@dot.aov or by submission to the regulatory docket at www.regulations.gov 

(Docket No. DOT-OST-2010-0074). She added that the minutes of each meeting will be made 

available both in the regulatory docket and on the FAAC Web site at http://www.dot.gov/faac. 

Ms. Williams read the formal statement required under FACA. She noted that although the meeting 

was open to the public (and members of the public were attending the meeting ), participation in the 

meeting was limited to Subcommittee members, their alternates, and Federal officials. She added that 

only Subcommittee members and their alternates were entitled to vote on Subcommittee business. 

Ms. Williams then turned the meeting back over to Ms. Friend to open substantive discussion. 

DISCUSSION 

Ms. Friend asked each Subcommittee member to provide a synopsis of issues they wanted the 

Subcommittee to examine. Mr. John M. Conley, TWU, noted recommendations in three areas that he 

believed were fundamental to labor's interests: (1) in the area of international air commerce, build 

incentives into policy and law that discourage outsourcing, and refrain from modifying existing 

cabotage restrictions; (2) reform bankruptcy laws to prevent employers from avoiding obligations to 

workers; and (3) establish a dignity of work culture. 

Mr. Robert L. Lekites, UPS, noted the Subcommittee's charter requires it to develop recommendations 

to ensure a world-class workforce to support a robust aviation industry. He asked that, in light of 

changing socioeconomic factors, the Subcommittee examine avenues for recruiting the best and 

brightest of the future workforce. He stated that the combinations of skills required for jobs in the 

aviation industry are unique, and called upon the industry to provide exemplary training and education 

programs and to create a working environment attractive to future employees. 
Future of Aviation Advisory Committee 

Labor and World-class Workforce Subcommittee 

Record of Meeting 

July 8, 2010 

Communications Workers of America (CWA) 

Washington, DC 

Mr. Richard Pyatt, Goodrich, stated that his company had submitted copies of a 2008 study on 

workforce issues conducted by the Aerospace Industries Association (AIA), a 2008 report by the 

Interagency Aerospace Revitalization Task Force, and a presentation by the National Association of 

Manufacturers (NAM) on education reform and workforce development. He noted that the 

United States currently faces an aging science and engineering workforce, with 26 percent of science, 

technology, engineering, and math (STEM) degree holders aged 50 or older as of 2008. He further 

stated that half of these employees are expected to leave full-time employment by age 62. Mr. Pyatt 

also stated that fewer American students are pursuing degrees in STEM disciplines, particularly 

doctoral-level degrees. 

Mr. Pyatt cited an FAA projection that 72 percent of air traffic controllers will be eligible for 

retirement by 2016, with approximately 15,000 controllers expected to leave the workforce between 

2008 and 2017. He noted that, in addition to replacing these controllers, the Next Generation 

Air Transportation System (NextGen) will require additional staff with such skills as systems 

engineering and program management, as well as scientists, researchers, and financial experts. 

Mr. Pyatt recommended that the Subcommittee seek input from Ms. Jennifer McNally, NAM, as a 

subject matter expert on workforce issues. 

Ms. Ana McAhron-Schulz, ALPA, offered suggestions in three broad categories: retaining current 

employees, attracting the best and the brightest individuals as new employees, and ensuring the 

National Mediation Board (NMB) is equipped to meet its responsibilities. With respect to retaining 

new employees, Ms. McAhron-Schulz recommended that government policy be crafted to ensure 

U.S. air carriers, and, by extension, their employees, receive a fair share of flying opportunities when 

participating in alliances, joint ventures, and similar arrangements. She also recommended maintaining 

existing limitations on cabotage and foreign ownership of air carriers. Furthermore, she endorsed 

passage of proposed bankruptcy reform legislation, which would reestablish collective bargaining as 

the primary means of modifying labor contracts. 

With respect to attracting high quality employees, Ms. McAhron-Schulz suggested the government 

should ensure pilot certification requirements reflect current real-wo rid needs. She noted that 

certification requirements have not been updated in several decades and urged action on a relevant 

advance notice of proposed rulemaking recently published for public comment. Ms. McAhron-Schulz 

echoed Mr. Conley's call for a just culture framework in the industry. She also asked that the DOT 

examine the request for proposal process used by fee-for-departure air carriers. She cautioned that 

competition based solely on cost may result in a lowering of standards. 

Finally, Ms. McAhron-Schulz recommended that the government ensure appropriate funding of the 

NMB to enable it to address its backlog and to ensure labor negotiations do not remain pending for 

undue lengths of time. 

Mr. David Barger, JetBlue, asked the Subcommittee to examine new ideas and not revisit areas that 

have already been extensively discussed. He expressed his intention to submit a paper to the 

Subcommittee. Mr. Barger stated, from his perspective, an important issue is the need to incorporate 

financial metrics into policy decisions. He drew a correlation between lack of investor interest in 
Future of Aviation Advisory Committee 

Labor and World-class Workforce Subcommittee 

Record of Meeting 

JulyS, 2010 

Communications Workers of America (CWA) 

Washington. DC 

aviation because of unfavorable returns on investments with an inability to attract and retain quality 

employees. Mr. Barger expressed interest in a discussion of several other issues: the impact of current 

tax laws and regulations on the industry, opportunities offered by foreign investment, and use of 

NextGen and other technologies to revitalize the industry and attract new employees. Mr. Barger 

suggested a review of existing labor statutes to identify potentially outdated policies might be 

worthwhile. Finally, he noted the market capitalization of the entire industry, from original equipment 

manufacturers to operators, is roughly equivalent to that of a single technology business like eBay, Inc., 

and stressed a need to attract shareholders to aviation. 

Ms. Thella Bowens, San Diego County Regional Airport Authority, stated that the employment needs 

of airports differ from those for other sectors of the aviation industry, but she encounters many of the 

same challenges in recruiting and maintaining quality employees. She noted airports, like other 

sectors, will require employees with STEM skills. She also observed that many of the attractive 

benefits of public sector work, such as pensions and job security, have been eroded in recent years, 

which impacts the ability of publicly owned airports to compete with the private sector for employees. 

Following these opening statements, Ms. Friend noted that some of the issues raised during opening 

statements had also been raised during other subcommittee meetings, including the Subcommittee on 

Competitiveness and Viability. She stated an issue she believed the Subcommittee could reach 

consensus on is the need for technical skills development. She noted that the materials submitted by 

Goodrich contained many good suggestions. Ms. Friend sought and received consensus that the need 

for technical skills development will be a basis for recommendations by the Subcommittee. 

Ms. Friend also stated that she agreed with Mr. Conley's sentiments on the importance of a culture of 

dignity in the workplace, and asked him to expound briefly on how to foster such a culture. Mr. Conley 

acknowledged that one of the keys to attracting the skilled employees required by the industry will be 

stability and profitability. He also stressed the importance of a shared view that the aviation workforce 

is valued as a vital national resource. Mr. Conley referred to a recent article describing the work 

environment experienced by flight attendants. He noted an increasingly common practice, particularly 

at Asian air carriers, of limiting employment of flight attendants to a term of 5 years. Mr. Conley noted 

that such practices and attitudes will not attract career-oriented workers, and suggested this practice is 

not in the industry's best interest. Mr. Conley stated that creating a productive new labor-management 

model also will require recognition by labor that the economic climate for air carriers has changed 

fundamentally and likely, irreversibly. 

Mr. Conley called for an environment that embraces the involvement of employees and their collective 

bargaining representatives as partners in decisionmaking, sharing of information with employees and 

representatives, recognition and reward of employee accomplishments, and a view of employees as 

assets that contribute to the value of the enterprise, rather than obstacles to be negotiated. 

Ms. Friend noted an issue ALPA raised in its submissions to the Subcommittee involved the long 

timeframe required for labor negotiations and mediations under the Railway Labor Act (RLA). She 

noted ALPA's recommendations included ensuring the NMB is adequately funded, and suggested that 

such action could foster an improved labor-management environment. 
Future of Aviation Advisory Committee 

Labor and World-class Workforce Subcommittee 

Record of Meeting 

July 8, 2010 

Communications Workers of America (CWA) 

Washington. DC 

Ms. Friend suggested that the broad concept of instituting a culture of dignity in the workplace was 

another possible ground for consensus, and sought input from the Subcommittee members. 

Mr. Barger agreed on the need for dignity and respect in the workplace, but stated that this need does 

not dictate a single approach on how to achieve it. He noted there are many different successful 

business models in the air carrier industry, and suggested there may likewise be more than one effective 

labor-management model, including models that do not involve collective bargaining. Mr. Barger 

acknowledged that the development and evolution of labor-management relationships should not be 

impeded by long, drawn out processes, and stated that action should take place in a timely manner. 

Mr. Pyatt presented his belief that commercial success generally requires respect for employees, and 

expressed support for Mr. Barger's position that the specific details of labor-management relations may 

differ significantly from enterprise to enterprise. 

Mr. Lekites stated his experience has taught him that good labor-management relations are of critical 

importance to a successful operation. He added success requires labor and management to work 

together, which in turn requires mutual respect, honesty, and good communications. Mr. Lekites also 

noted that managing labor relations for the aviation part of his organization differs greatly from 

managing relations for ground transport. He described how his company, which had absorbed 

employees from diverse aviation enterprises, developed its "Captain's Leadership Program" to establish 

its own culture. Under the program, positive efforts are made to make captains and crewmembers feel 

that they are respected as leaders and as managers of valuable company assets, and to help foster pride 

in on-time service to customers. 

With respect to the NMB, Mr. Lekites expressed his belief that the NMB does a good job, but is often 

used as a political device. 

Ms. Friend sought input from the Subcommittee on actions it might recommend to the Secretary of 

Transportation to educate employers on the benefits of an environment of mutual respect, or otherwise 

encourage them to develop such environments. She noted, parenthetically, that a specific airline's 

advertising is detrimental to a culture of dignity, and sought ideas on how, short of a prohibition, such 

conduct could be discouraged. 

Mr. Barger suggested self-policing might be a good approach. He stated this would require operators 

and industry organizations to take a more public role in speaking out against undesirable conduct. 

Mr. Conley suggested the Secretary of Transportation should convene a forum devoted to the subject of 

labor-management relations and workplace dignity. He noted the Secretary's stature would provide 

authority to such a forum. He stated this would give stakeholders from throughout the industry the 

opportunity to interact with representatives from air carriers that have created a healthy workplace 

environment. He noted the poor financial performance of the industry in 2003, while inflicting 

significant damage, had one positive effect by creating an environment of open communication and 

cooperation between labor and management. Mr. Conley added that for at least one major air carrier, 
Future of Aviation Advisory Committee 

Labor and World-class Workforce Subcommittee 

Record of Meeting 

July 8, 2010 

Communications Workers of America (CWA) 

Washington, DC 

that environment has continued to this day. He stressed both labor and management should remember 

at all times their mutual dependence on each other for survival. 

Ms. Bowens expressed interest in a forum or summit as envisioned by Mr. Conley, but suggested that 

real progress in developing guidelines for better labor-management relations might require a series of 

such events over time, to permit long-term discussion of ideas. 

Mr. Barger also stated that a forum could have a positive outcome, but noted the success of initiatives 

of this nature requires careful planning, selection of participants, and folio wup work. He suggested the 

Subcommittee develop the concept in greater detail before presenting it to the FAAC as a 

recommendation. 

Mr. Lekites stated a forum is not inherently a bad idea, but agreed with Mr. Barger that the outcome of 

such an endeavor depends on many variables, including the individuals participating. He cautioned 

against setting expectations too high. He also noted that successful labor-management relations must 

be built from the ground up, and cannot be based on work rules developed elsewhere. 

Ms. McAhron-Schulz expressed agreement with much of what had been said previously. She noted 

discussing detailed recommendations might be premature, and suggested the Subcommittee use this 

meeting to reach broad consensus on the areas it wishes to discuss further. 

Ms. Friend agreed with Ms. McAhron-Schulz and suggested the Subcommittee should attempt to 

develop three broad areas of consensus by the end of the meeting. She noted, however, the 

Subcommittee must develop concrete, actionable proposals for the Secretary by its final meeting. 

Ms. Friend recognized a request by Ms. Christa Fornarotto, DOT, to address the Subcommittee. 

Ms. Fornarotto reiterated Ms. McAhron-Schulz's comment that the Subcommittee is not expected to 

produce specific recommendations at this time. She stated that the FAAC expects each subcommittee 

to present three to five issue areas at the next FAAC meeting on July 14, 2010, but has not requested 

specific recommendations, such as Mr. Conley's suggestion for a forum. She noted the Subcommittee 

had begun to define issue areas with opportunities for ample discussion. 

Ms. Friend stated that the Subcommittee had already reached consensus on the need to stimulate 

technical skills development in the workforce and on the need to create a culture of dignity and respect 

in the workplace. She sought suggestions on a third area of consensus that is not duplicative of areas 

already staked out by other subcommittees. Ms. Bowens stated the two areas on which the 

Subcommittee had already reached consensus are extremely broad, and suggested that, unless a third 

area clearly warranting examination is submitted, the existing areas could be further divided into 

subareas, each of which could support multiple recommendations. 
Future of Aviation Advisory Committee 

Labor and World-class Workforce Subcommittee 

Record of Meeting 

July 8, 20JO 

Communications Workers of America (CWA) 

Washington, DC 

Mr. Pyatt sought clarification on whether the Subcommittee's consensus on the need to develop STEM 

skills included a proposed recommendation submitted by Goodrich that research and development tax 

credits be expanded. Ms. Friend stated any ideas or proposals that would further the goal of skills 

development may be discussed. She noted that other subcommittees have assigned development of 

recommendations in specific areas to individual members or groups of members, and gave the 

Subcommittee the option of proceeding in a similar fashion. 

Mr. Barger noted that other subcommittees had already expressed their intent to examine areas of focus 

potentially relevant to labor and workforce issues, including return on invested capital, which was 

staked out by the Subcommittee on Competitiveness and Viability. He agreed that the subcommittees 

should not duplicate each other's work. He then suggested a third area of focus for the Subcommittee 

might involve a public education effort. Mr. Barger expressed his belief that the general public is 

unaware of or takes for granted the scope and complexity of the aviation industry and the monumental 

coordination of efforts that makes air transportation possible. Ms. Friend observed this could fall under 

the umbrella of attracting talented individuals to the industry. 

Mr. Lekites noted Mr. Barger's reference to return on capital, and added he has encountered labor 

representatives who fail to acknowledge the impact of labor cost on financial performance. 

Mr. Lekites described two key objectives for a successful labor-management relationship: management 

must respect employees and their concerns and the parties must achieve a level of understanding such 

that labor leaders have the same concerns as management leaders. He suggested relations between 

labor and management can be dramatically improved by communication with employees about why 

business decisions that affect employees are made, and on how employees' performance and 

compensation affect profitability. 

Mr. Conley agreed that communication and understanding by both labor and management can produce 

favorable results. He offered anecdotal evidence in which a coordinated effort by labor and 

management had permitted an employer using represented labor to achieve a refurbishment task at a 

lower per-unit cost than if it outsourced the work. He stated at times, management can be too quick to 

reach a determination on economic feasibility without engaging labor representatives in an attempt to 

reach a creative solution. 

Ms. Friend stated there did not appear to be disagreement that communication and understanding 

between labor and management is highly desirable. She asked for input on whether any action by the 

DOT could encourage such communication and understanding. Ms. McAhron-Schulz stated open and 

frank communication does often occur in the industry, but noted the inherent instability of relationships 

between labor and management is problematic. She added changes in leadership on either the 

management or labor side can degrade a productive relationship. She stated in addition to 

communication and understanding, relative job security is also crucial to a culture of dignity in the 

workplace. Ms. McAhron-Schulz noted employees who believe their jobs are secure would be more 

willing to engage in frank communication and imaginative solutions. 
Future of Aviation Advisory Committee 

Labor and World-class Workforce Subcommittee 

Record of Meeting 

JulyS, 2010 

Communications Workers of America (CWA) 

Washington, DC 

Receiving no further comments on how to implement a culture of dignity in the workplace, Ms. Friend 

turned to the broader questions that had been posed to the Subcommittee at the first meeting of the 

FAAC: 

• What crucial skills will be needed in the industry over the next 10 years? 

• How will the industry attract and retain employees with these skills? 

Ms. Friend stated the National Air Traffic Controllers Association (NATCA) had submitted materials to 

the Subcommittee. She noted the Subcommittee would review the submission and take it into account 

in its discussions. 

Ms. Friend also offered some of her personal thoughts on the subject of retaining quality employees in 

the workforce. She suggested the Subcommittee consider the motivations of skilled individuals 

entering the workforce. She posed the question of what makes a person want to work in the aviation 

industry instead of other industries, and what makes individuals remain in the industry on a 

long-term basis. 

Mr. Pyatt stated that Ms. Friend's comments are not limited to air carriers, but are applicable to all 

segments of the aviation industry. He noted expectations in the business world have changed 

fundamentally and will continue to change, and it is incumbent on businesses to recognize and adapt to 

changing circumstances. He stated businesses must continually ask the question of how to engage 

young people entering the workforce, and stressed that success is dependent on looking forward, rather 

than looking back. 

Ms. McAhron-Schulz stated significant efforts are being made to encourage students to pursue careers 

in the industry. She noted much attention is given to airline positions, such as flight crewmembers and 

mechanics, and sought comments on what problems airports are experiencing in attracting skilled 

employees. 

Ms. Bowens stated the challenges facing airports can be similar to those facing other industry 

segments, but because airports tend to be smaller, standalone entities, they are not impacted 

significantly by complex labor issues. She stated a dynamic and engaged workforce requires that all 

levels of the organization be involved in decisionmaking. She noted her airport engages in community 

outreach efforts to attract talented employees, and stated representatives of her airport participate in 

community groups and work closely with the local economic development corporation. She reiterated 

many of the advantages the public sector has traditionally offered to job seekers are diminishing and 

noted that, like other segments of the industry, airports need creative, energetic, business-focused 

individuals to perform their missions. Ms. Bowens also added, while aviation holds an allure for many 

individuals, relying on the exotic nature of the industry to attract candidates does not ensure the 

industry recruits the best and the brightest young people. She stated attracting quality workers requires 

continuous efforts over long periods of time. She added her airport works to educate students at all 

levels and the community at large of the importance of the industry. 
Future of Aviation Advisory Committee 

Labor and World-class Workforce Subcommittee 

Record of Meeting 

July 8, 2010 

Communications Workers of America (CWA) 

Washington, DC 

Mr. Lekites echoed Ms. Bowens' statements on the importance of community engagement. He noted 

his company partners extensively with government and quasi-governmental entities at the State and 

local level to ensure a continued availability of qualified employees and the continued viability of the 

local economy. 

Mr. Conley suggested that the Subcommittee, when considering issues surrounding attracting and 

retaining employees, keep in mind that arrangements such as part-time employment or seasonal 

employment are increasingly common, in some cases as entry-level positions. He posed the question 

of where such employees fit in the strategic plans of employers, and whether management considers 

them to be valuable long-term investments. 

Mr. Barger stated at his company, longevity of employment is largely up to the individual. He noted 

when faced with a challenging economic climate, his company has sought and obtained cooperation 

from employees to avoid actions such as furloughs and pay cuts. 

Mr. Lekites stated his company also tends toward long-term employment of individuals, but 

acknowledged this approach is not universal and many industry participants do not follow a 

career-oriented model. 

Ms. Friend directed the discussion to international issues, such as joint ventures, foreign investment, 

and cabotage. She noted this area may be somewhat controversial and might not yield as much 

consensus as other areas. She asked Ms. McAhron-Schulz to comment on concerns her organization's 

constituents may have with joint ventures. 

Ms. McAhron-Schulz stated the principal concern is that crewmembers and other employees of 

U.S. air carriers have a continued opportunity to work. She added under various business 

arrangements, such as alliances and joint ventures, there is a possibility that the share of physical 

flight operations conducted by foreign air carriers may significantly exceed their economic 

participation in the arrangement, and that the share and growth of operations conducted by 

U.S. air carriers may be diminished. She stated ALPA supports legislative efforts to protect U.S. jobs 

and job growth in this area, and recommends that this position be part of the national aviation policy. 

Mr. Barger stated discussion of issues such as foreign participation in the U.S. airline market must take 

place in the context of the overall return on investment to shareholders. He stated the issues raised 

before the Subcommittee, including attracting and retaining employees, foreign investment levels and 

open skies, outsourcing of maintenance, industry tax burdens, and costs related to environmental 

regulations impact profitability and economic health. He expressed his opinion that until some 

consensus is reached on these issues, the industry will continue to experience "boom and bust" cyclical 

fluctuations. He added that long-term profitability and stability will require development of creative 

and innovative solutions to changing environments. Mr. Barger noted these issues may overlap with 

those being addressed by the Subcommittee on Competitiveness and Viability, and suggested the 

possibility of a dialogue between the two subcommittees. 
Future of Aviation Advisory Committee 

Labor and World-class Workforce Subcommittee 

Record of Meeting 

July 8, 2010 

Communications Workers of America (CWA) 

Washington. DC * e ' 

Ms. Friend expressed support for the proposition that the need for economic stability and profitability 

are prerequisites to any discussion. She stated that the concern of her organization's constituents is that 

they continue to play a role in the industry. Ms. Friend and Ms. McAhron-Schulz also confirmed that 

the issue of ticket taxes and return on invested capital are being addressed by the Subcommittee on 

Competitiveness and Viability. 

Mr. Lekites noted that the shifting nature of economic conditions and use of new business arrangements 

require companies to be flexible to continue to grow. He stated companies must partner with 

organizations that can help them accomplish what they cannot alone. He noted the need for protective 

restrictions must be balanced with the need for operational flexibility. 

Mr. Barger asked the Subcommittee to discuss issues such as legislative restrictions on foreign 

ownership. He acknowledged the issue is controversial and consensus is not likely, but expressed his 

belief that it is important to discuss such issues. He drew parallels between the air carrier industry and 

the automobile industry. He explained the building of manufacturing plants by foreign automobile 

manufacturers has had a positive economic and employment impact on southern states in the United 

States. He added foreign investment in his company has similarly created jobs domestically. He 

questioned whether limitations in place since the 1940s should be reexamined in light of a drastically 

changed economic and operating environment. 

Mr. Barger also discussed use of foreign repair facilities by air carriers. He stated decisions to source 

work to such facilities are not driven solely by cost, but can also be driven by the availability of 

facilities capable to perform required work. 

In response to Mr. Barger's comments, Ms. Friend related a concern held by her organization and its 

constituents. She described a scenario in which a foreign air carrier acquires a majority share of a large 

U.S. air carrier, and restructures the joint operations of the air carriers such that the foreign air carrier 

performs all international operations, relegating the U.S. air carrier to a position as a feeder for the 

foreign air carrier. Ms. Friend sought comment on how to avoid that outcome or otherwise alleviate 

that concern. Mr. Barger acknowledged the stated concern, but also expressed the opinion that this 

would be an extreme case. 

Ms. Bowens noted there is tension between the desire for financially stable airlines and the desire to 

limit foreign ownership and influence over a resource of such vital importance. 

Mr. Pyatt stated there are also national security reasons to ensure U.S. air carriers maintain an 

appreciable portion of international flying under the Civil Air Reserve Fleet (CRAF) program. He 

observed it is important to maintain a strong international air fleet to support military transportation 

needs. He also noted the role of reservist pilots has come to the forefront in recent conflicts, and stated 

the maintenance of deep ranks of pilots who may be called up for military service is key to ongoing 

national security. 
Future of Aviation Advisory Committee 

Labor and World-class Workforce Subcommittee 

Record of Meeting 

JulyS, 2010 

Communications Workers of America (CWA) 

Washington. DC 

Mr. Barger also noted other legislative and regulatory issues he would be interested in discussing. 

He noted the history of air carriers continuing to operate through multiple bankruptcies in recent 

decades has tainted the ability of all air carriers to attract capital, regardless of the history of the 

individual air carrier, and questioned whether this policy best serves the industry and the nation. He 

noted the Subcommittee on Financing might be more appropriate to address this issue. Ms. Friend 

stated that the Subcommittee on Financing had specifically declined to address bankruptcy or entry 

barriers for startups. 

Mr. Conley noted that although access to capital might be negatively impacted, there always seem to be 

lenders willing to finance airlines, albeit under stringent terms at times. He also noted that the 

alternative to permitting airlines to reorganize under bankruptcy is to liquidate insolvent entities under 

Chapter 7 of the Bankruptcy Code, which causes significant unemployment issues. Mr. Barger stated 

he does not endorse aggressive application of Chapter 7 to the airline industry, but hopes to spark a 

conversation on the impacts of bankruptcy and other policies on low cost air carriers that do not 

conform to a traditional air carrier model. Ms. McAhron-Schulz noted the difficulties that would be 

associated with modifying bankruptcy policy to serve the needs of a single industry. 

Mr. Barger also expressed interest in a frank discussion of whether the provisions of the RLA remain in 

the best interests of all employers and employees, including employees who are not organized under a 

collective bargaining agreement. Ms. Friend presented two potential areas of discussion with respect to 

the RLA and such companies: how representation should be organized and how a binding agreement 

can be reached. Mr. Barger noted there are numerous other issues that warrant discussion, such as 

recent changes within the NMB and the ability of organized workforces to decertify. 

Mr. Pyatt sought comment on whether the Subcommittee should examine labor and workforce issues 

relating to air traffic control (ATC). He noted that NextGen implementation will result in significant 

changes to the way ATC tasks are performed and the skills required in the ATC field. Ms. Friend 

agreed that NextGen would raise many issues relating to the workforce, and noted NATCA's 

submission included concerns associated with consolidation of ATC facilities and that some 

consolidation would necessarily be associated with NextGen implementation. She requested and 

obtained consensus that the impact of NextGen be designated as a third issue area for future discussion 

by the Subcommittee. 

Mr. Pyatt suggested some questions for the Subcommittee to consider with respect to NextGen: 

• 

• 

What new technologies will be introduced by NextGen and what new certifications will be 

required? 

What changes to the physical ATC infrastructure will be necessary? 

How can changes be effectively implemented with minimal disruption to individuals? 

Mr. Pyatt urged that representatives of the ATC workforce be involved in the decisionmaking process 

early on, to avoid unforeseen consequences and the need to revisit past decisions. 
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Labor and World-class Workforce Subcommittee 

Record of Meeting 

July 8, 2010 

Communications Workers of America (CWA) 

Washington. DC 

Mr. Barger expressed support for Mr. Pyatt's comments, and suggested the Subcommittee examine the 

impact of NextGen on multiple workforces, including downstream impacts of implementation. He also 

raised the question of how NextGen will impact the ability to attract and retain employees. 

Mr. Lekites stated his company has participated in some testing of NextGen technologies, and noted 

both the significant impact NextGen can have on the efficiency and productivity of the industry, and the 

importance of carefully managing the introduction of new technology to the workforce. 

Ms. Friend noted that, in addition to ATC workers, NextGen implementation would affect individuals 

represented by Professional Aviation Safety Specialists, AFL-CIO. Mr. Conley noted aircraft 

dispatchers would be similarly affected. 

Mr. Conley also raised the issue of disparate standards applied to repair facilities in the United States 

and abroad. Mr. Conley sought consensus from the Subcommittee in support of a single set of 

standards for such facilities, including the same diligence and intensity of background checks, language 

requirements, and drug and alcohol testing programs. 

Mr. Pyatt acknowledged that a single, high level of safety is desirable, but cautioned against imposing 

mandates on other nations, particularly in light of existing bilateral agreements that may address the 

same issues. Ms. Friend noted such a mandate would be limited to facilities conducting maintenance 

on U.S.-registered aircraft. 

Ms. Fornarotto again addressed the Subcommittee to reiterate that it should reserve development of 

specific recommendations until it had the opportunity to fully discuss issue areas, receive input from 

subject matter experts where appropriate, and vet proposals. Ms. Friend noted, again, that the 

Subcommittee would not reach consensus on all issues, but comprehensive discussion is important. 

Ms. Friend next asked the Subcommittee to consider the issue of labor standards under open skies 

agreements. She noted the availability of inexpensive labor in other countries may negatively affect 

domestic employment. Ms. Friend stated Mr. Conley had proposed that the DOT include labor 

provisions in bilateral aviation agreements. She noted some labor provisions had been included in 

Phase II of the United States-European Union agreement, which requires ratifying countries to comply 

with core International Labor Organization (ILO) provisions. Ms. Friend sought input on whether 

continuing to impose such requirements on international agreements would undermine the 

United States' bargaining position. 

Mr. Lekites stated he was not familiar with the specific requirements of ILO provisions. He noted his 

primary concern would be with determining the additional costs associated with flying under an 

agreement with such provisions, as compared to flying to nations not covered by such an agreement. 

He also acknowledged that open skies and bilateral agreements are crucial to the future growth of the 

U.S. aviation industry. 
Future of Aviation Advisory Committee 

Labor and World-class Workforce Subcommittee 

Record of Meeting 

July 8, 2010 

Communications Workers of America (CWA) 

Washington, DC ' e ' 

Ms. McAhron-Schulz expressed support for the inclusion of ILO provisions in international 

agreements. She noted inclusion of such provisions would help to put the aviation workforce in the 

United States on an equal footing with foreign workforces in competition for flying and maintenance 

opportunities. 

Ms. Bowens asked the Subcommittee to consider one additional issue relevant to labor and workforce 

issues. She noted the inability of airport and tenant employees to satisfy background check 

requirements for airport security credentials is increasingly problematic, especially with respect to 

lower-level positions. Mr. Conley echoed Ms. Bowens' concerns, noting that there appear to be 

different standards applied at different but comparable airports. Mr. Pyatt expressed a desire for 

additional information on the scope and pervasiveness of the problem. 

Ms. Friend noted that such concerns speak to the issue of attracting workers to the industry, and 

solicited comments on how the problem might be addressed. She questioned whether it would be 

possible to implement a variable stringency of background checks, based on the necessary access for 

performance of the employee's duties. She also echoed Mr. Pyatt's desire for more information on the 

extent of the issue nationwide. 

Ms. Bowens stated that, based on interaction with colleagues, she believed the problem to be a 

pervasive one, especially in large airport markets. She accepted the responsibility to gather more 

detailed information on the problem and report back to the Subcommittee. 

CLOSING REMARKS AND ADMINISTRATIVE MATTERS 

In closing, Ms. Friend summarized the three issue areas the Subcommittee had identified for 

presentation to the FAAC at the July 14 meeting: development of technical skills in the workforce; 

establishment of a culture of dignity and respect; and assessment of the impact of NextGen 

implementation on various workforces. 

Ms. Friend stated the materials submitted by Goodrich on skills development presented an excellent 

starting point for the Subcommittee's future discussions. She volunteered to reach out to NATCA for 

input on the impact of NextGen on the ATC workforce. Mr. Conley volunteered to obtain similar input 

from an appropriate person or organization on the impact on dispatch personnel. 

Ms. Friend proposed that, with the exception of the final meeting, the Subcommittee's future meetings 

take place by telephone. She proposed July 29, 2010, for the next Subcommittee meeting, which was 

subsequently rescheduled to August 6. She also raised the possibility that working groups could be 

formed under the Subcommittee to refine issues under discussion. 
Future of Aviation Advisory Committee 

Labor and World-class Workforce Subcommittee 

Record of Meeting 

JulyS, 2010 

Communications Workers of America (CWA) 

Washington, DC 

ADJOURNMENT 

Ms. Williams solicited a motion for adjournment. On motion, duly seconded and approved by the 

majority of the FAAC members present, the meeting was adjourned. 

The meeting adjourned at 3:47 p.m. 

I hereby certify that, to fh©?best of my knowledge, the foregoing minutes are accurate and complete. 

Approved by: 

Terr/Williams, Designated Federal Official 

Dated: //A/ ^% L> Z ° / & 6, 

Ratified on: