1

1 Environmental Protection Agency

2

3

4

5

6 Public Hearing on

7 Proposed Clean Power Plan for

8 Existing Power Plants

9

10

11

12 9:00 a.m. to 2:17 p.m.

13 Friday, August 1, 2014

14

15 Room B

16 William S. Moorhead Federal Building

17 100 Liberty Avenue

18 Pittsburg, Pennsylvania 15222

19

20

21

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1 EPA PANEL 1:

2 MIKE KOERBER, 

3 EPA Headquarters, Air Office, North Carolina

4 CHRISTIAN FELLNER,

5 EPA Headquarters, Air Office, North Carolina

6 BRIAN REHN, 

7 EPA Regional Office, Philadelphia 

8

9 EPA PANEL 2:

10 REID HARVEY, 

11 Division Director, EPA's Clean Air Markets 

12 Division

13 DONNA MASTRO, 

14 EPA Region 3, Office of Regional Counsel

15 ANDREW KREIDER, 

16 EPA Region 3, Air Division

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19

20

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1 C O N T E N T S

2 PAGE

3 BRYAN PALKO, 12 

4 Coal miner 

5 BRYAN MARSHALL, 16 

6 Coal miner

7 LEVI ALLEN, 20 

8 Coal miner

9 TIMOTHY MERRYMAN, 24

10 Vice president of UMWA

11 RON JONES, 27

12 Coal miner

13 ADAM HARTLEY, 30

14 Coal miner

15 NICOLE DILLINGHAM, 34

16 New York resident

17 NICHOLAS GOODFELLOW, 38

18 Pennsylvania student

19 BETH ANNE MUMFORD, 44

20 Director, Americans for Prosperity Pennsylvania

21 DENNIS YABLONSKY, 50

22 CEO, Allegheny Conference on Community Dev.

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1 C O N T E N T S (continued)

2 PAGE

3 NATHAN SMITH, 56

4 Coal miner

5 RICHARD LUCAS, 59

6 Coal miner

7 RONALD LUKETIC, 62

8 Coal miner

9 DAVE BIENKOSKI, 65

10 Coal miner

11 CAROL BIENKOSKI, 69

12 Wife of Dave Bienkoski

13 KEN SCHILLING, 72

14 Manager/CEO, Western Electric Cooperative

15 BRANDON WOLF, 77

16 President, Local 459, International Brotherhood 

17 of Electrical Workers

18 ABBY RESNICK, 83

19 Pennsylvania resident

20 ED GOOD, 86

21 Legislative Director, Utility Workers Union of 

22 America

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1 C O N T E N T S (continued)

2 PAGE

3 JOHN ATHERTON, 91

4 Professor, Seton Hill University

5 CYNTHIA WALTER, 95

6 Pennsylvania resident

7 ANGELA WILEY, 99

8 On behalf of Ellen McNulty, Arkansas Wildlife 

9 Federation 

10 SUSAN FRANT, 104

11 On behalf of Lynn Iser, Founder, Elder12 Activists

13 JONATHAN GRAY, 107

14 Pennsylvania resident

15 JIM BRITSCH, 110

16 Local 29, International Brotherhood of 

17 Electrical Workers 

18 GREG WINKS, 114

19 On behalf of Gil Frost, Pennsylvania resident

20 Nicole Catino, 117

21 Pennsylvania resident

22

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1 C O N T E N T S (continued)

2 PAGE

3 STEPHEN WHITWORTH, 128

4 Director of Environmental Services, 

5 Ameren Corporation

6 JONATHAN GENSLER, 134

7 Former United States Army Captain

8 ROBERT MITCHELL, 140

9 Scientist and engineer

10 REBECCA STUDER, 145

11 Unitarian church member

12 EDWARD WOLKING, 155

13 Executive Director of the Great Lakes Metro

14 Chamber Coalition

15 JAMIN BOGI, 160 

16 Group Against Smog and Pollution

17

18

19

20

21

22

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1 P R O C E E D I N G S

2 MR. KOERBER: Thanks for waiting so 

3 patiently. We'll get started in a couple 

4 minutes. Okay. Good morning and thank you for 

5 being here. My name is Mike Koerber. I'm with 

6 EPA's Headquarters Air office in North Carolina, 

7 and I will be carrying the session this morning. 

8 Joining me on the panel are Christian 

9 Fellner, also with our EPA Air office in North 

10 Carolina, and Brian Rehn with our EPA regional 

11 office in Philadelphia.

12 We're here today to listen to your 

13 comments on two proposed EPA rules to reduce 

14 carbon pollution from power plants. EPA 

15 announced both of these rules on June 2nd. Power 

16 plants are the largest source of carbon pollution 

17 in the United States, accounting for roughly one18 third of all domestic greenhouse gas emissions.

19 The first rule is EPA's proposed Clean 

20 Power Plan for Existing Power Plants. This 

21 proposal consists of two main parts, state 

22 specific goals to lower carbon pollution from 

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1 power plants and guidelines to help states 

2 develop their plans for meeting the goals.

3 The second rule is EPA's proposed rule to 

4 address Carbon Dioxide Emissions from Modified 

5 and Reconstructed Power Plants. This rule would 

6 set emission limits for these two groups of power 

7 plants. 

8 If you would like more detail on either 

9 of these proposed rules, we have fact sheets 

10 available at the registration desk downstairs, 

11 and I think there are some at the table in the 

12 back of the room. 

13 Today's hearing is one of four public 

14 hearings across the country this week on the two 

15 proposed rules. There has been tremendous 

16 interest in each of the hearings, and I'd like to 

17 thank you again for being here today to share 

18 your comments.

19 Before we get started, I'd like to go 

20 through a few housekeeping items and ground rules 

21 for today's hearing. First, please be sure that 

22 you have checked in at the registration desk 

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1 downstairs, even if you're not planning to speak, 

2 and if you signed up in advance to speak and you 

3 haven't checked in, please stop at the desk 

4 downstairs and do so.

5 Second, if you're a speaker and you were 

6 given a room letter when you checked in, Room A 

7 or Room B, I just want to be clear, this is Room 

8 B. You're, of course, welcome to listen in either 

9 room, but if you were assigned to speak in Room 

10 B, please be here at your designated time.

11 Third, please keep your phones on 

12 vibrate, and please don't hang around in the hall 

13 outside. There's other offices here. We don’t 

14 want to disturb them. 

15 Here's how today's hearing will work. I 

16 will call speakers up in pairs. When your name 

17 is called, please come to the table at the front 

18 of the room. When I call on you to speak, please 

19 state and spell your name. Your comments will be 

20 transcribed by our court reporter and included in 

21 our rule-making record.

22 Each speaker will have five minutes. We 

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1 have a light to help you know how much time you 

2 have left to speak. When the light turns from 

3 green to yellow, that means you have one minute 

4 remaining. When it turns red, that's the signal 

5 to wrap up your testimony. The light will flash 

6 red and beep -- oh, you'll hear it beep, believe 

7 me -- when you have spoken for five minutes and 

8 it's time to stop.

9 When you're finished speaking, please 

10 remain at the table until the person next to you 

11 has completed his or her testimony. I will then 

12 call up the next pair of speakers and so on.

13 The panel is here today to listen to your 

14 comments, but we may ask you some clarifying 

15 comments, if necessary. And if you brought a 

16 written copy of your testimony, please give it to 

17 the staff at the registration desk, and if you 

18 have extras, we would be happy to take a copy 

19 here; and our court reporter would be happy to 

20 take a copy also.

21 Because of the large number of people who 

22 signed up to speak today, and to be fair to 

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1 everyone, we must enforce the five-minute limit. 

2 If you have additional comments you'd like to 

3 make, then please submit them in writing. Let me 

4 assure that EPA gives just as much consideration 

5 to comments we receive in writing as we do 

6 comments we receive at public hearings like this.

7 There's still plenty of time to send 

8 written comments, and there are comment cards 

9 available at the registration desk downstairs. 

10 They look like this. We have some here. There's 

11 also some on the table in the back of the room. 

12 So you're welcome to fill those out as well.

13 We'll put any written comments submitted 

14 today in the official record for the proposed 

15 rules. Instructions for submitting written 

16 comments in other ways are available at the 

17 materials table at the registration desk and I 

18 believe at the back of the room as well.

19 We're scheduled to go until 8:00 p.m. 

20 tonight. We'll take a lunch break, a dinner 

21 break, and other short breaks as necessary.

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1 If you have any questions at all during 

2 the day, please stop at the registration desk 

3 downstairs and someone will help you.

4 Finally and most importantly, please be 

5 respectful of everyone who speaks today. We have 

6 people here with a wide variety of views, and we 

7 want to hear from all of you. So to be fair to 

8 everyone, we ask that you listen quietly. Even 

9 applause can slow things down. As I said, we 

10 want to hear from everyone who has signed up to 

11 speak. 

12 Thanks again for taking the time to be 

13 here today to share your comments. Now let's get 

14 started. 

15 So we'll start with the first two 

16 speakers, Bryan Palko and Brad Marshall. You 

17 want to come to the table at the front. Mr. 

18 Palko, when you're ready.

19 MR. PALKO: Good morning. My name is 

20 Brian Palko, B-r-y-a-n, P-a-l-k-o, and I live in 

21 Morgantown, West Virginia. I'm a member of 

22 United Mine Workers of American, Local 2300, and 

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1 I'm employed at Cumberland Mine. I'm also a 

2 fourth generation union coal miner.

3 I want you all to think about something. 

4 We're sitting on the single largest energy source 

5 in the world. In this country there's more 

6 recoverable coal than there is oil in Saudi 

7 Arabia. 

8 We have the ability to achieve something 

9 everyone in this nation has talked about for 

10 decades, energy independence. But instead of 

11 applying with the innovation and technology that 

12 this country has always championed in utilizing 

13 this resource, the EPA has decided drastically to 

14 reduce coal production. It really does make me 

15 wonder if the agency and some others in this 

16 country have just decided that we're no longer 

17 smart enough or capable enough to accomplish such 

18 goals.

19 While part of me wants to believe that it 

20 can't be true, the rule does appear to signal you 

21 believe it.

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1 How is it possible that we can be so 

2 short-sided? We have the energy resource to 

3 continue to provide cheap and efficient power, 

4 yet we throw it all away for hope and a prayer. 

5 We hope that other countries will follow our lead 

6 and eliminate their own efforts to achieve energy 

7 independence. We pray that someday we will be 

8 able to stop investing huge sums of taxpayer 

9 dollars to subsidize wind and solar energy.

10 This policy will simply not be 

11 sustainable when fully implemented. No one can 

12 tell what the actual impact will be on the power 

13 grid that cannot react to immediate increased 

14 power needs on a lower scale. 

15 It is certain wind and solar cannot meet 

16 any of these instantaneous demands. What would 

17 we do when these events present themselves? Who 

18 will decide which home, business, or hospital is 

19 permitted to operate while others are caught 

20 without electricity.

21 If we continue to travel down this road 

22 towards energy deficiency, somebody had better 

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1 written another rule to determine power 

2 rationing.

3 This is an extremely important issue that 

4 must be discussed. The time for that discussion 

5 must be now because if the government is hell 

6 bent on taking our country down this path, we 

7 must prepare for the consequences. Once the coal 

8 mines in this great nation are shut down by your 

9 plan, they are gone for generations to come. 

10 They cannot be opened and closed on a whim.

11 As electric rates increase and demands 

12 exceed supply, there will be no reserve capacity, 

13 no generator, or turbine to make up the 

14 difference. In all the excitement and fanfare of 

15 crafting and releasing this rule, it does not 

16 appear there was much consideration given to 

17 these facts. Yet decided with these realities, 

18 it still appears that the EPA still intends to 

19 push ahead, relying, as I said before, on a hope 

20 and prayer.

21 While I do have faith in the power of 

22 prayer, it doesn't give me much comfort in 

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1 relying on other countries to follow our strict 

2 environmental leads. Nor does the thought that 

3 what should be some of the smartest minds in this 

4 country have abandoned the American spirit of 

5 innovation and settled on such fatal plan.

6 I really do wish I knew when that 

7 happened, when we decided we could no longer 

8 solve difficult problems and make our nation 

9 better without putting large numbers of its 

10 citizens at risk.

11 Thank you for your time. God bless.

12 MR. KOERBER: Thank you, sir. Mr. 

13 Marshall?

14 MR. MARSHALL: Good morning. My name is 

15 Brad Marshall, B-r-a-d, M-a-r-s-h-a-l-l. I live 

16 in Washington County, Pennsylvania here. I'm a 

17 member of MWA, Local 2300. 

18 I'm not here to argue with anyone about 

19 the science the EPA has used to determine that 

20 weather patterns are not changing, or if the 

21 temperature of the Earth is fluctuating. It is 

22 not my intent to sit here and argue that changes 

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1 are not occurring. I'm not as many (sic) who may 

2 disagree with this regulatory policy or label by 

3 its proponents and deny Earth science.

4 When it comes to clean water, clean air, 

5 and a safe environment for my children and 

6 grandchildren to grow up in, my hope is no 

7 different than anyone else. They have a right to 

8 expect that the place they decide to call home, 

9 no matter where that is, allows them the 

10 opportunity that other generations have enjoyed.

11 We all have an obligation to ensure that 

12 we do all we can to make sure they have every 

13 chance at a healthy and prosperous life. I do 

14 not doubt for one minute that that is the sincere 

15 goal of everyone testifying here today.

16 This issue does propose extremely 

17 difficult problems. Like many of the people I 

18 know and work with, I have listened for years to 

19 the raging debate about climate change and the 

20 need to address this issue. 

21 The question in my mind is not whether we 

22 need to find a solution to the problem because I 

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1 think we can all agree that we do. Rather, the 

2 question is, will the path we take today correct 

3 the problems. Excuse me. Will the path we take 

4 today correct the problem, really achieve the 

5 goals we are hoping it will. I can't see that 

6 what we are doing with this policy will 

7 accomplish that goal. The mining industry, where 

8 I've made a living for many years, will be put 

9 out of business. The job losses at the mine will 

10 affect everyone in the community. I don't mean 

11 just coal miners, but I mean truckers, railroad 

12 workers, equipment manufacturers, utility 

13 workers, and anyone connected to the mines will 

14 be unemployed.

15 Now, that may not seem like a big deal to 

16 some people, and some may look at it as just the 

17 price others have to pay, but we need to remember 

18 these are good paying jobs in communities that 

19 offer few other good paying jobs.

20 We need to be honest about a couple other 

21 things too. First, the new jobs you're saying 

22 will be created as a result of your actions are 

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1 really just your best hope. You don't really 

2 know if they will be or not. In the meantime, 

3 you're trashing my job, and, worse, even if there 

4 were any new jobs created, they sure won't be in 

5 a coal field where I live. So you will have 

6 really limited any chance of economic security 

7 for the next generation and large parts in the 

8 country.

9 Secondly, while we eliminate these 

10 industries and the jobs that are here today in 

11 order less emissions, there will be no real 

12 improvement on a global scale. Other countries 

13 will continue to build coal fire power plants, 

14 many without any of the environmental technology 

15 required in the United States. 

16 The situation could become, and based on 

17 the action other nations are taking today, will 

18 become progressively worse.

19 In closing, I just need to point out that 

20 while I don't deny we need to take action that 

21 will have a positive impact on the problem, 

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1 others shouldn't deny the fact that this policy 

2 is not the solution.

3 Thank you for your time.

4 MR. KOERBER: Thank you, gentlemen. 

5 Any questions, Panelists? No? Thank you 

6 both very much.

7 MR. MARSHALL: I appreciate it. Have a 

8 good day.

9 MR. KOERBER: I'd like to call Levi Allen 

10 and Tim Merryman. Mr. Allen, when you're ready.

11 MR. ALLEN: I'm Levi Allen. That's L-e12 v-I, A-l-l-e-n. I'm a coal miner employed at 

13 Marshall County Mine, Marshall County Coal 

14 Company. I'm the president of the United Mine 

15 Workers of America, Local union 1638. 

16 I've worked in the mine for seven years. 

17 I'm a certified electrician at the mine, and I'm 

18 pleased to offer this testified today to you all. 

19 Thank you for the opportunity.

20 MR. KOERBER: Thank you, sir.

21 MR. ALLEN: The policy the Environmental 

22 Protection Agency is about to impose on the 

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1 mining industry will have a catastrophic impact, 

2 not only on the mine where I work, but it will 

3 also have a ripple affect across the community 

4 where I live, and all without the slightest 

5 assurance that it will have any impact on climate 

6 change.

7 For the miners and their families, the 

8 EPA's decision to push the ill-advised rule 

9 forward will destroy any chance we have of 

10 maintaining a self-sufficient middle class 

11 family. With the mere stroke of a pen and the 

12 unrealistic hope that others in the world will 

13 follow -- or will play follow the leader on the 

14 issue of climate change, we're destroying of good 

15 paying industrial jobs in this country.

16 This is about my job. This is about my 

17 family. This is about my life. I didn’t choose 

18 to work in the coal industry because I didn't 

19 have any other choice. I choose this profession 

20 because it affords me the opportunity to live a 

21 stable and secure life. It pays my mortgage. It 

22 feeds and clothes my family, and it provides 

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1 medical benefits and helps to sustain the 

2 community where I live, small town in northern 

3 West Virginia.

4 I'm as proud as what I do for a living as 

5 I am humbled by the opportunity to do it to 

6 support my family. I see daily the positive 

7 impact that my job has on the lives of those 

8 close to me, and the impact that it has on the 

9 others that benefit from my job at the mine.

10 So now, just as we young miners are 

11 becoming reliable self-sustaining members of our 

12 communities, we've decided to end our careers, 

13 and while pursuing this agenda, there really is 

14 nothing in return. There are no other employment 

15 options in that area, no way to pay the bills, no 

16 future for my family and community. This 

17 dismantling of the coal industry will accomplish, 

18 without any guarantee that the Clean Power Plan 

19 will work -- it may have no effect on the problem 

20 it is designed to fix, and the action shows utter 

21 indifference to the socioeconomic catastrophe it 

22 will create.

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1 It may seem wise to the agency and even 

2 each of you to roll the dice in the hopes that 

3 other nations will follow suit and apply the same 

4 unilateral approach to a global problem, but we 

5 should all face the reality that such events, 

6 they generally don't happen. It may be easy to 

7 gamble with my job and the future of my family, 

8 but I can't take that risk. 

9 The EPA needs to rethink this on a global 

10 scale while still looking at the people it will 

11 devastate at home. This superfluous policy is 

12 not the solution we need. The cure you are 

13 proposing is certainly worse than the disease.

14 I'm going to leave you with some food for 

15 thought. Yesterday I heard testimony regarding -

16 - from a veteran in our Navy, and I appreciate 

17 all the service that he has given. He talked 

18 about the national security of our country based 

19 on the effects of climate change and all the 

20 socioeconomic problems it will cause whenever 

21 cultures clash and people are moved from one area 

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1 in these outlining third worlds and things like 

2 that to other parts in this major culture clash.

3 What's going to happen when we're all 

4 uprooted, and we all have to move? We have the 

5 same culture clash? I mean, it's different in 

6 Appalachia than it is in California and so on and 

7 so forth. It's -- there's two sides to every 

8 coin.

9 I appreciate your time. Thank you.

10 MR. KOERBER: Thank you, sir.

11 Mr. Merryman.

12 MR. MERRYMAN: Good morning. My name is 

13 Timothy Merriman, M-e-r-r-y-m-a-n. I'm vice 

14 president of UMWA Local Union 1473. I work for 

15 American Energy, the Ohio County Mine.

16 Some of the concerns I wish to express 

17 during my testimony today will obviously be 

18 familiar to you. First of all, I must point out 

19 that calling this policy the Clean Power Plan 

20 cannot be further from the truth. The fact of 

21 the matter is it will do nothing on a global 

22 scale to reduce emissions. Believing that a 

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1 policy will be accepted by others who are, as we 

2 speak, building hundreds of coal-fired power 

3 plants naive at best.

4 There is, however, one thing this rule 

5 will do more efficiently than any other 

6 government plan I can think of, it will eliminate 

7 thousands of good paying jobs. Jobs that also 

8 include health benefits, pensions, security. 

9 Jobs that give entire communities financial 

10 security.

11 Let there be no mistake, when the rule is 

12 fully implemented, over 64,000 jobs in coal 

13 mining, utility, and railroad industries will be 

14 gone forever, but that's only the beginning of 

15 the devastation. When you add jobs that depend 

16 on mining to survive, railroads, truckers, 

17 equipment manufacturers, engineers, and others, 

18 more than 208,000 workers and their families will 

19 be affected. This job killing policy will reach 

20 well beyond the coal fields and cripple 

21 manufacturers across the nation. 

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1 I do realize that there are those who 

2 will argue that this policy will create jobs. I 

3 think some of them actually believe it. These 

4 are the same problems as we heard when the 

5 electronics industries, plastics manufacturers, 

6 and even toy manufacturers fled the country. 

7 Forgive me if I don’t believe your vision of the 

8 post-coal energy and industrial base.

9 I must believe that if the job creation 

10 you're claiming will happen, it should already be 

11 happening now.

12 Industries that are viable and efficient 

13 do not rely on the imposed destruction of their 

14 competitors to begin operating. But isn't that 

15 the real problem here? In reality, you have, for 

16 whatever reason, chosen sides and picked winners, 

17 but your winners cannot compete on a level 

18 playing field. So you have written a rule to 

19 change the dynamics of the situation.

20 Miners and other workers are unemployed, 

21 their industry slashed, and those who could not 

22 otherwise compete are the ones left standing. I 

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1 cannot believe that my own government would 

2 eliminate my job.

3 These governmental engineering sounds 

4 like something that happens in third world 

5 countries or by communist regimes, not United 

6 States of America. If your goal all along has 

7 been to dismantle the coal industry, then 

8 congratulations, you're well on your way. Thank 

9 you.

10 MR. KOERBER: Thank you. Thank you both 

11 for your very passionate testimony. I appreciate 

12 you being here today.

13 MR. MERRYMAN: Thank you.

14 MR. KOERBER: Next I'd like to call Ron 

15 Jones and Adam Hartley. 

16 Mr. Jones, when you're ready.

17 MR. JONES: Good morning. My name is Ron 

18 Jones, R-o-n, J-o-n-e-s. And thank you for the 

19 opportunity to address this panel. 

20 I'm a coal miner employed at the Ohio 

21 Valley Coal Company in the United Mine Workers, 

22 Local 1810.

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1 I've worked in the mine for 10 years and 

2 am currently a mine examiner. I've also 

3 performed numerous jobs at the mine during that 

4 time. While the work can be difficult and 

5 dangerous, I'm fortunate that my career has been 

6 relatively injury-free. And as usually the case, 

7 I have suffered a few minor injuries, but nothing 

8 that's limited my ability to work and provide for 

9 my family.

10 The mining career I choose has permitted 

11 me to purchase a home, raise a family, and be a 

12 stable hardworking member of my community. My 

13 job is one of the highest paying and has some of 

14 the best benefits in the area. It not only 

15 supports my lifestyle but helps build a tax base 

16 that provides critical services to my friends and 

17 neighbors. 

18 Necessary community services, like the 

19 fire department, emergency medical services, the 

20 local hospital, and the school systems in the 

21 coal fields depends on these jobs to survive. 

22 The corner grocery and gas station will not 

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1 survive if these jobs disappear from my 

2 community. I don't really think most of the 

3 people who worked on this rule understand the 

4 impact where I live.

5 The years of hard work and sacrifice I 

6 have made will, if my mine remains open, secure a 

7 pension and healthcare benefits when I retire. I 

8 realize that may be some years down the road, but 

9 it's a goal we all hope to reach. Yet, the rule 

10 you are proposing will allow all these things to 

11 slip away based on a risky policy that appears 

12 more likely to cause greater harm than produce 

13 much good.

14 There is no indication that the problem 

15 the EPA is claiming to address by this action 

16 will result in any positive impact for anybody. 

17 However, one thing is absolutely clear. This 

18 action will impact what I and other miners in the 

19 industry are working for. It will destroy my job 

20 immediately and my hope of a pension and 

21 healthcare in the future. 

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1 How can we be so short-sided? How can we 

2 destroy an industry that's provided energy and 

3 industrial power for hundreds of years without 

4 risking the future of our nation, while other 

5 nations are increasing their coal usage?

6 In closing, I do need to state for the 

7 record that while the EPA may feel an obligation 

8 to push this reckless plan forward, it does not 

9 have the right to destroy the lives of so many 

10 people. Neither this agency nor any other will 

11 be there to pick up the pieces when thousands of 

12 lives are shattered, and when I, and my fellow 

13 miners, and our families are confronted with the 

14 reality that this rule has eliminated our future. 

15 Thank you.

16 MR. KOERBER: Thank you, sir.

17 Mr. Hartley?

18 MR. HARTLEY: Good morning. My name is 

19 Adam Hartley, H-a-r-t-l-e-y. I live in 

20 Shadyside, Ohio. I'm a proud member of Local 

21 Union 1638 for UMWA. I work at the Marshall 

22 County Mine.

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1 I'd like to thank you for the opportunity 

2 to offer testimony on how the plan you have put 

3 together will impact coalfield communities across 

4 this country.

5 During this hearing you have heard from 

6 people about the terrible consequences of this 

7 proposed policy on miners and their families. The 

8 impact on all these individuals cannot be 

9 understated. We also need to look at the 

10 rippling effect the clean energy plan will have 

11 on the community where these people live. The 

12 immediate job loss for the miners, equipment 

13 manufacturers, truckers, railroaders, utility 

14 workers, electrical workers, vendors, and other 

15 related workers are still just the beginning of 

16 the decline.

17 Many of these coalfield communities rely 

18 on the income and healthcare benefits miners and 

19 their families spend at the local businesses to 

20 thrive. The loss of wages to workers and pension 

21 benefits to retired families will send shockwaves 

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1 through thousands of local businesses and 

2 important public institutions. 

3 The elimination of the healthcare 

4 benefits as a result of this will place 

5 significant hardships on healthcare provides, 

6 from doctors and clinics to pharmacies and 

7 community hospitals. The severity of the damage 

8 to the people who provide these services, and 

9 therefore the broader community, may not seem 

10 obvious at first, but they will be the inevitable 

11 result.

12 It may not seem rational to some that a 

13 federal policy can have such a fundamental impact 

14 on a given town, but for those who cannot 

15 understand this, I would invite them to visit the 

16 communities that I'm talking about. These small 

17 towns in the coalfields are unique. 

18 In many respects, we are fortunate to 

19 come from these small towns where everyone knows 

20 everyone else. These are places where people 

21 actually do look out for their neighbors, where 

22 generations of families live within walking 

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1 distance of one another. They teach us the 

2 importance of family, friends, and community. At 

3 the same time, they are, as they have been for 

4 more than a century, relying on the coal industry 

5 to sustain their way of life, an industry that, 

6 by the nature of the product it provides, exists 

7 in the halls and hills of rural American towns.

8 These communities thrive because of the 

9 men and women that -- the industry and the coal 

10 they produce. They are fundamentally taught 

11 together. It should be apparent when you destroy 

12 the one, you do irreparable harm to the other.

13 These communities are home to countless 

14 men and women who fueled the industrial 

15 revolution, helped win two World Wars, and 

16 continue to energize a power hungry nation, and 

17 now, without any assurances that what you're 

18 proposing will have any meaningful impact on 

19 carbon emissions, you're willing to destroy their 

20 lives, our lives.

21 Certainly we are smarter than this. 

22 Surely we not only see the problem but still have 

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1 the ingenuity and expertise to use this nation's 

2 most abundant energy resource efficiently. Thank 

3 you.

4 MR. KOERBER: Thank you. Thank you, 

5 gentleman for being here today.

6 See, I operate off these cards, and when 

7 they give me the cards, I can call names. I 

8 don't have any more cards. So Diana just went to 

9 go grab some more cards. Thanks for your 

10 patience.

11 Do we have others in the room who did 

12 sign up to speak? Yeah. Okay. So the cards are 

13 somewhere. They'll be here momentarily. Thanks. 

14 I have a card. We can start.

15 I'd like to call Nicole Dillingham and 

16 Nicholas Goodfellow.

17 Ms. Dillingham, when you're ready.

18 MS. DILLINGHAM: Thank you.

19 MR. KOERBER: Thank you.

20 MS. DILLINGHAM: Good morning. My name 

21 is Nicole Dillingham. I am here from 

22 Cooperstown, New York. 

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1 We live in a very historic and beautiful 

2 region. We're home to the Baseball Hall of Fame, 

3 which this week is well known after the induction 

4 ceremonies. But we're also headwaters of the 

5 Susquehanna River. We are -- our lake, Lake 

6 Oswego, has been written about by James Fenimore 

7 Cooper, and any contamination in that region 

8 impacts the entire eastern seaboard. 

9 So we are grateful that the EPA is trying 

10 to tackle climate change. We think it's critical 

11 that this be done, but we are concerned that the 

12 actual plan put forward misleads the American 

13 public. It is sold to the American public as 

14 being a great panacea; that it will reduce the 

15 cost of climate disaster, reduce the cost of 

16 health impacts, improve the environment. 

17 I think your plan -- your fact sheets 

18 projects up to $93 billion in savings by 2030, 

19 and we don't think there's any support for that 

20 conclusion. In fact, as I think you know, your 

21 plan on covers carbon dioxide emissions. It 

22 doesn't cover methane and other problems, and it 

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1 actually has the unintended or perhaps intended 

2 consequence of converting what is basically a 

3 coal fire economy and energy economy to one 

4 largely dependent on natural gas. 

5 And the extraction of natural gas, in the 

6 way it is being done now, will ultimately destroy 

7 all of the economic benefits that you now suggest 

8 will be possible if we shift from coal to natural 

9 gas, and this is a very serious problem because 

10 if what you do is destroy the jobs and the 

11 communities based on a theory that this will save 

12 the American consumer money and will improve the 

13 risks of climate disaster. You may be wrong, and 

14 you really need to look at what will happen if we 

15 go to a natural gas economy. 

16 Now, I know that you are potentially 

17 planning to regulate methane emissions too, but 

18 this goes well beyond just methane emissions. 

19 Hydraulic fracturing is one of the most dangerous 

20 processes of extracting a fossil fuel as can be 

21 imagined. 

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1 In my community in upstate New York, and 

2 this would cover about half of New York state, it 

3 actually would cover about half of our country, 

4 the industry wants to put a well pad every square 

5 mile, every square mile with 12 wells per well 

6 pad, each well to be fracked and refracked over 

7 60 years; and each frack cycle consumes seven 

8 million gallons of fresh water mixed with 

9 carcinogenic chemicals. We have no place to 

10 dispose of the carcinogenic wastes. Right now 

11 they're being put into our rivers and lakes, or 

12 they're being injected underground where they 

13 cause earthquakes. So you are potentially 

14 unleashing a very dramatic, perhaps cataclysmic 

15 environmental problem in the name of saving us 

16 from an environmental problem.

17 And there's one other major way in which 

18 your plan misleads the American public, and that 

19 is, I think you state in your fact sheet that by 

20 2030 utility bills would be down by about eight 

21 percent; and that's because you're assuming in 

22 your plan that the cost of natural gas will 

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1 remain relatively stable. But we know that our 

2 country is planning to export natural gas. 

3 They're planning to liquefy it and send it as far 

4 away as the Ukraine. They're certainly planning 

5 to send it anywhere they can overseas. The 

6 prices overseas are five times what they are in 

7 our country. So this will not lead to any kind 

8 of benefit to our utility rate payers.

9 So I think the time really has come that 

10 we as a country must look at renewables. We have 

11 delayed this. We don’t want to hurt communities, 

12 but we can't substitute one dirty fossil fuel for 

13 another. And if that's all we're doing, then we 

14 really should retire from this business. It 

15 simply doesn't make sense.

16 Thank you very much for the opportunity 

17 to speak to you today.

18 MR. KOERBER: Thank you, Ms. Dillingham.

19 Mr. Goodfellow?

20 MR. GOODFELLOW: Good morning. My name 

21 is Nicholas Goodfellow, N-i-c-h-o-l-a-s. Sorry.

22 MR. KOERBER: That's okay.

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1 MR. GOODFELLOW: Goodfellow, G-o-o-d-f-e2 l-l-o-w.

3 I'm a student at the University of 

4 Pittsburgh here in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, a 

5 board member of the student environmental group 

6 Free the Planet, and a manager in the music 

7 industry for an artist named Ri Ri (phonetic).

8 Thank you for this opportunity to speak 

9 in front of you today on this plan, which 

10 proposes the most significant action to address 

11 global warming, which we now know is the greatest 

12 threat to life and civilization as we know it.

13 The proposal you've set forward is a 

14 long-awaited, and I greet it with as warm a 

15 welcome as one might expect from a mother in 

16 labor whose spouse finally arrives in the 

17 delivery room almost too late. It's great that 

18 you were able to make it, but we could have used 

19 you here a little earlier.

20 As of June 2014, for the first time, the 

21 concentration of atmospheric carbon dioxide has 

22 broken through the 400 parts per million mark. 

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1 The goal of achieving 300 parts per million, the 

2 upper safety limit for atmospheric C02 feels 

3 further and further away.

4 Studies by NASA and the University of 

5 Washington looking at the ice shoots of western 

6 Antarctica both conclude that the collapse of the 

7 Western Antarctic ice sheet is already underway 

8 and is unstoppable. The glaciers retreat is 

9 being driven by climate change and could 

10 eventually cause up to 13 feet of sea level rise 

11 at a much faster rate than scientists had 

12 anticipated.

13 As a student, I'm constantly thinking 

14 about my future. I'll be graduating next spring, 

15 so I often get the question, "What do you want to 

16 do after you graduate?" I literally got that 

17 question on the bus this morning. Of course, I 

18 have absolutely no idea what I want to do after I 

19 graduate, and even if I did know what I wanted to 

20 do, I would probably have a hard time finding a 

21 job. Regardless, when I think of my future and 

22 what it will be like when I'm in my 30s, or 40s, 

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1 or dare I say my 50s, my first thought is about 

2 what the world will be like then. 

3 Because of climate change, Pennsylvania 

4 is predicted to have a climate similar to 

5 Georgia's. Part of my hometown, Washington, DC, 

6 is likely to be permanently submerged by rising 

7 seas, and my family in California may have to 

8 abandon their homes because there's no more 

9 water. This latter scenario is already taking 

10 shape in California. US Drought Monitor reported 

11 yesterday that more than half of the state is now 

12 experiencing exceptional drought, which is only 

13 expected to continue.

14 My future is one where I am forced to 

15 consider what -- excuse me. My future is one 

16 where I am forced to consider that I will likely 

17 face challenges accessing food or water as easily 

18 as it's assessable today.

19 Climate change poses a threat to food 

20 security, national security, and water 

21 availability. Climate change really is a threat 

22 to everything we know, and my hopes and my dreams 

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1 for a happy, healthy, stable future for myself, 

2 my Americans -- my fellow Americans, and 

3 everybody else in the world.

4 These steps you've proposed are great, 

5 and thank you for taking them, but I urge you to 

6 keep pushing forward. It may not seem like you 

7 have the people behind you at times, but you do. 

8 Public pooling has found that 64 percent of 

9 Americans believe the government should limit 

10 greenhouse gas emissions from existing power 

11 plans to address climate change and improve 

12 public health. This is an especially relevant 

13 figure for Pittsburgh and the Appalachia region 

14 because with our higher concentration of coal15 fired power plants, we are expected to see the 

16 largest decrease in fine particulate matter that 

17 cause asthma, cancer, lung damage, and premature 

18 death.

19 I was at the protest yesterday, and I 

20 noticed that while both of us, both sides, might 

21 each see each other as different, at the end of 

22 the day, we all want the same thing. Our signs 

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1 both read good stable jobs and policies that 

2 ensure a bright future for our children. Those 

3 are the signs that we were all carrying, 

4 regardless of which side of the protest we were 

5 on.

6 The people who you should be angry at are 

7 the politicians and industry executives who use 

8 their money and power to misinform, deceive, and 

9 profit from all of our losses while at the same 

10 time pitting us losers, the general public, 

11 against one another. Instead of focusing on 

12 realistic solutions to the challenges facing 

13 communities depending on coal production, leaders 

14 such as West Virginia Governor Earl Ray Tomblin 

15 and Pennsylvania Governor Tom Corbett are playing 

16 political games with us. Both claim to support 

17 coworkers and shift the blame from themselves to 

18 easy targets like President Obama, when it's the 

19 residents and constituents of their states which 

20 are losing jobs. It's their responsibility to 

21 help them.

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1 It's people like Governor Tom Corbett 

2 that is your biggest threat. He's allowed for 

3 natural gas to become the most serious 

4 competition to coal.

5 The fact is, we know how important you 

6 are. You've powered America through the good 

7 times and the bad, and we wouldn’t be the great 

8 nation that we are today if it weren't for the 

9 hard work, sacrifice, and the lives that were 

10 lost on the job. 

11 What nobody is saying is that we want you 

12 to stop powering the nation. We want you to 

13 continue powering the nation. You obviously take 

14 great pride in your service, as I saw yesterday, 

15 but I wonder what it would be like if your jobs 

16 were safe, clean, and for a sustainable future.

17 Thank you, again, for the opportunity to 

18 testify in support of the Clean Power Plan.

19 MR. KOERBER: Thank you. Thank you both, 

20 and thanks to all of you being so courteous and 

21 respectful to all of our speakers. I do 

22 appreciate it. 

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1 Next I'd like to call Beth Anne Mumford 

2 and Dennis Yablonsky.

3 Ms. Mumford, when you're ready. 

4 MS. MUMFORD: Great. I'm Beth Anne 

5 Mumford, B-e-t-h, space, A-n-n-e. Mumford is M6 u-m-f-o-r-d. 

7 So thank you for the opportunity to speak 

8 today. I'm the state director of Americans for 

9 Prosperity Pennsylvania. We're the nation's 

10 foremost free market advocacy group with more 

11 than two million nationwide, more than 120,000

12 activists here in Pennsylvania.

13 We're committed to promoting energy 

14 policies that provide reliable and affordable 

15 energy for all Americans. I'm testifying against 

16 the Administration's new EPA proposal, which 

17 would impose devastating new limits on carbon 

18 emissions, contribute to higher energy costs here 

19 in Pennsylvania and around the country and 

20 further hamstring job creation and economic 

21 growth, which is something we all need, both in 

22 our states and across the country.

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1 Although the EPA regulations call for a 

2 30 percent cut in emissions by 2030, these new 

3 rules would impose different reduction 

4 requirements for each state with the new mandate 

5 falling more heavily on certain states than 

6 others.

7 Pennsylvania will face one of the largest 

8 reductions in carbon emissions, 31.7 percent of 

9 2012 levels, and that will have a far-reaching 

10 negative impact on Pennsylvania businesses and 

11 working families. These new rules will require 

12 Pennsylvania to either join a regional cap and 

13 trade program, coal plants to buy expensive 

14 retrofitting equipment, or for them to shut down 

15 entirely. This would certainly increase the cost 

16 of energy producers, which will inevitably be 

17 passed on to energy consumers in the form of 

18 higher prices. 

19 Energy production, as you know, is one of 

20 Pennsylvania's most important industries, not 

21 only for the jobs it creates but for the nation 

22 as a whole. In 2012, Pennsylvania produced over 

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1 54 million short tons of coal, which ranked the 

2 fourth highest in the nation. Equally important, 

3 Pennsylvania is the only state which produces 

4 anthracite coal, which has a higher heat value 

5 than other kinds of coal.

6 Similarly, natural gas production has 

7 also boomed in Pennsylvania, increasing 72 

8 percent from 2011 to 2012. In 2012, Pennsylvania 

9 produced more than 2.2 trillion cubic feet of 

10 natural gas of energy, ranking third nationally. 

11 These sectors produce many high paying jobs for 

12 Pennsylvania families with mining accounting for 

13 over 34,000 jobs and average pay of over $80,000 

14 for extraction and support staff roles.

15 Pennsylvania doesn't simply rely on 

16 mining these natural resources, however. We have 

17 30 power plants that generate nearly 40 percent 

18 of their electricity from coal and 34 percent 

19 from natural gas. We rank third among the states 

20 in terms of coal use and sixth in natural gas 

21 usage. This production also provides jobs to 

22 more than 32,000 people in the utility sector 

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1 with a median salary of over $100,000, twice the 

2 median income of the average Pennsylvania family.

3 Coal and natural gas remain the most cost 

4 effective and reliable options for electricity 

5 generation in the state while employing 

6 employment to thousands of Pennsylvanians. 

7 Even if businesses energy demands remains 

8 constant in the coming years, the price to 

9 produce goods and services will increase as the 

10 price of energy increases under these new 

11 regulations. Increased costs for businesses 

12 means fewer resources to hire new employees, 

13 provide pay raises, or expand and produce 

14 additional jobs; that will inevitably mean slower 

15 economic growth, fewer jobs, and lower wages as 

16 businesses are forced to divert an increasing 

17 percentage of their resources to pay their energy 

18 bills. 

19 This really is a family budget issue here 

20 in Pennsylvania. The interference in 

21 Pennsylvania's power generation has caused prices 

22 to rise substantially already. Electricity 

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1 prices have already increased 35 percent since 

2 2005, putting strains on family budgets. This is 

3 due in part to Pennsylvania's gross receipt tax 

4 and electricity generators, the only type of this 

5 tax in the nation. Higher electricity bills are 

6 bad news for struggling Pennsylvania families, 

7 and the most vulnerable families will be the 

8 hardest hit. 

9 The median Pennsylvania family already 

10 spends roughly $1,700 of their disposable income 

11 on residential energy and costs, as stated, are 

12 quickly rising. With these new regulations, 

13 costs will further increase significantly, 

14 leaving families with less money in their pockets 

15 for essentials like school supplies, healthcare, 

16 and groceries.

17 Even worse, higher energy prices 

18 disproportionately affect those who can least 

19 afford it, those who are struggling the most in 

20 this struggling economy. Those earning between 

21 $10,000 and $30,000 per year will, on average, 

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1 spend almost 10 percent of their disposable 

2 income on their residential energy needs.

3 Just in conclusion, the regulations on 

4 carbon will have a devastating effect on the 

5 Pennsylvania economy and its residents. Given 

6 the high cost to Pennsylvania and America at 

7 large, AFP strongly supports preventing the 

8 implementation of these regulations.

9 MR. KOERBER: Thank you.

10 MS. MUMFORD: Thank you. 

11 MR. KOERBER: Mr. Yablonsky.

12 MR. KOERBER: Thank you. 

13 My name is Dennis Yablonsky. That's 

14 spelled Y-a-b-l-o-n-s-k-y. I'm the CEO at the 

15 Allegheny Conference on Community Development, an 

16 organization that for 70 years now has been 

17 working to improve sustainable prosperity and 

18 quality of life in the Pittsburgh region.

19 One of the keys to achieving those goals 

20 here, and I believe across the country, is 

21 maintaining a stable electric grid that delivers 

22 reliable and affordable power. But the 

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1 electricity service that we take for granted is 

2 under stress from market dynamics, from 

3 inadequate transmission infrastructure, from too 

4 few new power plants that we need for supply, and 

5 new federal regulations.

6 Unfortunately, the federal government 

7 does not have a plan to ensure the stability of 

8 the grid. Instead, it has taken a series of 

9 piecemeal and ad hoc actions without a complete 

10 understanding of how they all interact together 

11 and impact the grid. 

12 This winter proved how vulnerable our 

13 electrical supply has become. PJM Interconnect 

14 is the group that oversees the wholesale electric 

15 grid in Pennsylvania and all or parts of 12 other 

16 states plus the District of Columbia. It 

17 coordinates electricity delivery to meet the 

18 needs of 60 million people. They've got nearly 

19 1,400 generating sources that can produce 186,000 

20 megawatts of power. And in January, PJM came 

21 within roughly 900 megawatts -- that's less than 

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1 1 percent of the total capacity -- of running out 

2 of the electricity that was demanded. 

3 Nicholas Akins, the CEO of American 

4 Electric Power testified to the Senate in April 

5 that 89 percent of the coal fire plants that they 

6 planned to shut down next year were needed by PJM 

7 during January's polar vortex. AEP has been 

8 sounding the alarm about reliability of the grid 

9 for several years now.

10 Now, natural gas is supposed to take 

11 coal's place, but in January when gas fire 

12 generation was needed, many power stations 

13 couldn't get any gas fuel because the gas 

14 companies were diverting the gas to homes and 

15 hospitals to keep people warm.

16 Together coal, natural gas, and nuclear 

17 power account for 85 percent of the country's 

18 electricity generation, and all three sectors are 

19 under stress. Today's focus and yesterday's 

20 focus is on federal regulations that would 

21 ultimately reduce coal usage, but at the same 

22 time new nuclear power plants are almost 

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1 impossible to build in this country; and new 

2 federal regs in that area can make it 

3 uneconomical for existing nuclear plants to keep 

4 operating.

5 There's also other federal action 

6 underway in other areas of the government that 

7 would make natural gas extraction more difficult. 

8 So where are we supposed to get the electricity 

9 that we need?

10 Solar and wind certainly are and have to 

11 be a part of the portfolio, but they don't yet 

12 have the utility storage technology that's 

13 necessary to provide a base load of power; and 

14 meanwhile, conditions continue to get worse.

15 In Wisconsin, for example, market 

16 distortion has resulted in the Kewaunee Nuclear 

17 Power Plant having to pay the transmission system 

18 to take the power that they produce, pay. And so 

19 the plan owner, what did they do? They shut it 

20 down 20 years ahead of schedule and in the 

21 process wiped out five percent of the state's 

22 electricity supply. The Kewaunee shutdown and 

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1 the potential for dozens of others like it to 

2 follow is a trend that we're clearly very, very 

3 concerned about, not according to me, according 

4 the Department of Energy's Assistant Secretary of 

5 Nuclear Energy, Dr. Peter Lyons.

6 This country's course on the electric 

7 grid is unsustainable. You have and will 

8 continue to hear a lot about how these proposed 

9 regulations will increase costs to consumers, and 

10 that's probably correct. 

11 But the bigger problem, from our 

12 perspective, is that we're on a course where 

13 customers may find that they can't get 

14 electricity at any price, and that's not an 

15 exaggeration. While on PJM, we came very close, 

16 as I testified during the polar vortex, to 

17 running out of electricity and South Carolina at 

18 the same time. Hospitals, schools, and tens of 

19 thousands of customers were subject to rolling 

20 blackouts because there wasn't enough of a margin 

21 when cold weather took out three of their power 

22 plants.

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1 Now, the current rules aren't set up to 

2 provide adequate return to electric companies to 

3 build enough generation to maintain a margin. So 

4 given the various regulations at the federal, 

5 state, and local level on the construction on 

6 some pipelines, on transmission lines, projects 

7 take years to complete, and there's no way to 

8 jumpstart the process. The result is by the time 

9 this problem that I'm highlighting is obvious, it 

10 will take years to solve it, and you can't 

11 maintain a modern economy or society under those 

12 conditions.

13 As Evan Bayh, former Democratic Governor 

14 and Senator from Indiana put it in a nuclear 

15 energy forum in Philadelphia in May, "We're 

16 sleepwalking into our energy future, and we can't 

17 afford to do that." 

18 So on behalf of the Allegheny Conference, 

19 the Greater Pittsburgh Chamber of Commerce, and 

20 our members, I'm asking the president to stop ad 

21 hoc regulation and changes to the electrical 

22 system, to appoint a task force with 

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1 representatives from the EPA, Department of 

2 Energy, the Nuclear Regulatory Commission, the 

3 Federal Energy Regulatory Commission, plus 

4 regional transmission operators, electric 

5 generator companies, and others to develop a 

6 comprehensive, integrated cross-functional 

7 national grid policy and an action plan that will 

8 help to ensure an adequate, affordable, and 

9 reliable electric grid.

10 Thank you for the opportunity to testify 

11 here this morning.

12 MR. KOERBER: Thank you, sir, and thank 

13 you, ma'am. I appreciate you being here today.

14 I'd like to call Nathan Smith and Dick 

15 Lucas.

16 Mr. Smith, when you're ready.

17 MR. SMITH: Good morning. My name is 

18 Nathan Smith, S-m-i-t-h. I live in Bridgeport, 

19 Ohio. I'm a member of UMWA, Local Union 1473 and 

20 work at Murray American Energy High County Coal 

21 Mine.

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1 When I heard that the EPA was holding 

2 hearings about the Clean Power Plan, I 

3 immediately began trying to contact the agency in 

4 hopes of being able to speak against this rule. 

5 I feel that this rule as written is misguided. 

6 It punishes workers in the United States and does 

7 little, if anything, for the environment.

8 The rule's purpose is to reduce carbon 

9 emissions globally by dismantling the American 

10 coal industry. I have to ask the question why a 

11 US agency like the EPA would ignore the evidence 

12 that India and China intend on ramping up their 

13 coal usage, regardless of what the United States 

14 does. They are increasing coal mining, and 

15 imports, and burning coal with few pollution 

16 controls at a rate that already far surpasses our 

17 country's usage. 

18 Maybe I should not be surprised. After 

19 all, the EPA has, for years, not hidden its 

20 intentions to shut down coal mining in this 

21 country. Seeing our industry is obsolete, 

22 despite the thousands of Americans it employs, 

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1 and now you expect us to go away quietly. I can 

2 assure you that will not happen.

3 I have to ask, does the EPA see miners, 

4 regardless of facts to the contrary, as dirty 

5 polluters who must be eliminated? Many of our 

6 strongest supporters in the environmental 

7 movement do. Do you actually believe that we 

8 spend our lives with our heads buried in the 

9 sand, not seeing what's happening around us?

10 In the end, most people here will not 

11 wonder or care what happens to my spouse and 

12 children if I no longer have a job. No one is 

13 looking at the burden my family and my coworkers 

14 will face if we no longer have a steady paycheck, 

15 or if there are no more contributions to the UMWA 

16 Health and Retirement funds. No one will care 

17 until the money runs out, and the government, 

18 which is killing our jobs, must pay the price in 

19 employment benefits, welfare, and public 

20 assistance.

21 I am proud that I have been able to 

22 provide for my family because of the work that I 

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1 do. I am proud to be a miner. I've never asked 

2 for handouts from the people around me or from 

3 the government. I want to pay my own way. I 

4 want to work. I am proud of the work that I do. 

5 I want to be able to continue my profession and 

6 produce coal to power the nation.

7 I have worked in the mines for many 

8 years. I do not want my job to be given to 

9 someone in another country who will never hear 

10 about this type of rule. This rule will not help 

11 the environment, but it will throw away our 

12 future and cause hardship on many others. Thank 

13 you.

14 MR. KOERBER: Thank you, sir.

15 Mr. Lucas?

16 MR. LUCAS: Good morning. My name is 

17 Richard Lucas, L-u-c-a-s, and I live in 

18 Morgantown West Virginia. I'm a 44-year member 

19 of the United Mine Workers of America, Local 

20 Union 1702, and I worked at Consol Energy, 

21 Blackfield Two Mine, which is now Murray Energy, 

22 Monongah County Mine.

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1 I'd like to start my testimony by saying 

2 that this EPA ruling is a betrayal of not just my 

3 family and myself but to my community as a whole. 

4 I grew up in Morgantown, West Virginia, where my 

5 fathers, and uncles, and grandfathers were proud 

6 union coal miners. They entered the mines to 

7 support their families and create a life that 

8 afforded job security while they worked and 

9 pension and healthcare security when they 

10 retired.

11 When I finished high school, I followed 

12 in their footsteps and began my mining career. 

13 This part of my story is very similar to other 

14 miners that live in my community and reflects the 

15 nature of mining communities across this country.

16 For a lot of towns like mine, coal is the 

17 lifeblood of our economy. It is in many ways the 

18 family trade, and I'm proud of that fact. When I 

19 spend the paycheck I earn, the money goes to the 

20 people working in my town. The money goes to the 

21 grocery stores, the gas stations, the local mall 

22 and restaurants, all of them employing people 

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1 from the community. While it may seem difficult 

2 for some to understand, I believe that my coal 

3 mining job has been able to help improve the 

4 hometown I love so dearly.

5 With the implementation of this rule, I 

6 can't help but fear that all of this will change 

7 for the worst. Without new coal-fired power 

8 plants, plants that are much more efficient than 

9 ever before, I can't be sure my job will be 

10 secured for the future, and I fear for the 

11 pension that would ensure my family's future 

12 comfort. I also fear without jobs in the coal 

13 industry, workers throughout my community in all 

14 lines of work will feel the same hardships. 

15 The only thing I find even more shocking 

16 than the rule is the reasoning behind it. I 

17 cannot truly believe that countries like China, 

18 India, and dozens of others will follow our lead. 

19 They never have in the past. Why do we think 

20 they will now?

21 Not only are you throwing away my future, 

22 my children's future, and my community's future, 

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1 but the futures of so many other small rural 

2 communities across the coal fields, all for a 

3 rule that will not stop other countries from 

4 mining coal and burning coal without the 

5 pollution control technology that we already have 

6 in place. They will continue to mine and burn 

7 coal and grow financially, while we will lose our 

8 jobs, or wages, and our future.

9 I hope you consider what I have said 

10 here. What you are doing will cripple the coal 

11 fields and small towns across this country, 

12 leaving unemployment and poverty as a lasting 

13 effect, and the air will be no clear for all of 

14 our sacrifice. Thank you.

15 MR. KOERBER: Thank you. I appreciate 

16 both of you being here today.

17 I'd like to call Donald Luketic. I'm 

18 sorry if I mispronounced -- and Dave Bienkoski, 

19 Bienkoski. I probably said it wrong twice.

20 MR. BIENKOSKI: You were close.

21 MR. KOERBER: I was close.

22 Mr. Luketic? 

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1 MR. LUKETIC: Good morning. My name is 

2 Donald Luketic, L-u-k-e-t-i-c. And I live in 

3 Fairview, West Virginia. I'm a proud member of 

4 UMWA, Local Union 4047, and a proud member of the 

5 United Mine Workers for 64 years.

6 I worked at Eastern Associated Coal 

7 Federal No. 1, Federal 2, and Peabody, which is 

8 now Patriot Coal. I am now retired.

9 In deciding on the final language to be 

10 contained in the Clean Power Plan, the EPA has 

11 stated that it looked at many potential scenarios 

12 in order to craft an effective and workable 

13 solution to the global climate problem. I could 

14 argue broadly that this policy will undoubtedly 

15 be rejected by the majority of other countries 

16 around the world and, therefore, have no impact 

17 on the problem, making it a ridiculous approach.

18 I will instead focus more narrowly on 

19 some economic problems the EPA has failed to 

20 address. I'm sure that the agency has done some 

21 elaborate economic studies to bolster its 

22 position in regard to this policy. However, as a 

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1 coal miner and an individual who will feel the 

2 brunt of this policy most severely, I must 

3 question whether there was any focus placed on 

4 the economic devastation that will slam coal 

5 field communities. Has the EPA actually looked 

6 at the numbers? Did it look at the situation in 

7 real dollar terms, and does it see what the 

8 policy it has settled on will mean?

9 I am sure that this panel has heard that 

10 there are over 100,000 retired miners, their 

11 families and widows who are currently receiving 

12 pensions and medical benefits from the UMWA 

13 Health and Retirement funds, but I wonder if 

14 anyone here understands exactly what that means 

15 in terms of real dollars. 

16 I also wonder if you understand how that 

17 money supports not only the beneficiary but the 

18 community as well. Allow me to give you just a 

19 few facts and figures to make my point. In 2013, 

20 the 100,000 plus beneficiaries of the funds 

21 received pension benefits in excess of $590

22 million. These benefits were used to pay for 

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1 municipal services, buy clothing, food, support 

2 education, and help maintain a stable life for 

3 the beneficiary.

4 In Pennsylvania, where you are holding 

5 this hearing, pensioners received over $111 

6 million. In neighboring West Virginia, pension 

7 benefits topped $204 million. The bottom line is 

8 these benefits help to sustain communities. 

9 In that same year, these miners and their 

10 families also assess over $577 million in 

11 healthcare services. Services that were 

12 necessary to heal the sick, mend the injured, and 

13 cure disease. They allowed the beneficiaries to 

14 maintain or regain their health, but they also 

15 provided assets needed to keep the doctors' 

16 offices, clinics, pharmacies, and hospitals 

17 operational. These benefits, like the miners' 

18 pension checks, help to sustain the community.

19 As I stated in my opening, based on the 

20 actions of other nations. There is little hope 

21 that this policy will be effective in achieving 

22 any amount of success in addressing its stated 

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1 mission. Let there be no doubt, if implemented, 

2 this policy will succeed where countless, 

3 ruthless coal operators failed over the years in 

4 destroying the UMWA Health and Retirement funds. 

5 Should that happen, simple economics say the $1.1 

6 billion that annually goes into the coal fields 

7 from these funds will no longer be available to 

8 sustain lives or communities.

9 Thank you for this opportunity.

10 MR. KOERBER: Thank you, Mr. Luketic.

11 Mr. Bienkoski?

12 MR. BIENKOSKI: Yes. My name is David 

13 Bienkoski, B-i-e-n-k-o-s-k-i. I live in 

14 Reedsville, West Virginia. I belong to Local 

15 Union 1702 with the United Mine Workers, and I'm 

16 retired from Consol Energy, Blackfield Two Mine.

17 I would like to discuss an issue that 

18 seems to be missing from the conversation. It 

19 very well could be that everybody at the EPA has 

20 been working hard to eliminate coal from the 

21 nation's energy mix. You never consider some of 

22 the harm you were doing. I'm referring to the 

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1 destruction of the United Mine Workers of 

2 American Health and Retirement Fund. The fund 

3 currently pays pensions and healthcare, nearly 

4 100,000 retirees, their families, and widows. 

5 There are also thousands of working miners who 

6 are counting on these earned benefits when their 

7 working lives in the mines are done. 

8 The funds were created in 1946 by an 

9 agreement signed at the White House by President 

10 Harry Truman looking on. The continuation of the 

11 funds depends, as it has in its conception, on 

12 the continuous contributions from coal operators 

13 under contract with the United Mine Workers. The 

14 amount of the contributions of each coal company 

15 depends on the numbers of miners they employ and 

16 the hours that these miners work. The union has 

17 understood for years that a healthy coal industry 

18 is key to adequately funding the benefits of our 

19 retirees and widows.

20 For the past 68 years, we have negotiated 

21 contracts with the coal operators that protect 

22 the funds and allowed the industry to thrive. We 

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1 all understand that it's essential to have 

2 someone sitting at the other side of the table to 

3 negotiate with. Accomplishing this, despite the 

4 ups and downs of the industry and the ever5 changing energy needs of the nation has never 

6 been easy, but we have been successful. Now we 

7 as a union and each of our members and widows who 

8 rely on the benefits, we have earned -- we have 

9 earned to sustain us through our retirement 

10 years, and are facing a crisis that your agency 

11 is creating.

12 When you implement this policy, which the 

13 EPA acknowledges will close down a significant 

14 portion of the coal industry in this country, you 

15 eliminate the companies we rely on to fund this 

16 continuing benefit. Without these employers, 

17 there are no miners and no one to pay into the 

18 fund. It will only matter -- it would only be a 

19 matter of time until the money runs out and the 

20 pensions and the healthcare of these workers who 

21 worked so hard to secure them are left without 

22 retirement security.

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1 I want each of you to think about that. 

2 I want you to understand that what you are doing 

3 is not just implementing some happy plan that 

4 everybody should be dancing in the streets about. 

5 In fact, you are placing the lives of all the 

6 people I'm talking about in jeopardy. I hope you 

7 take this into consideration. 

8 Thank you for your time.

9 MR. KOERBER: Thank you, sir. I 

10 appreciate both of you traveling here today to be 

11 with us.

12 I'd like to call Carol Bienkoski and Ken 

13 Schilling. Didn't know it was such a common 

14 name. You know him? 

15 (Laughter)

16 Ms. Bienkoski, you can go first. 

17 MS. BIENKOSKI: Hello. My name is Carol 

18 Bienkoski. My husband Dave and I are retired 

19 coal miners from UMWA Local 1702.

20 We both worked hard to produce the energy 

21 source that has powered this nation for years. 

22 Now, we simply want to be permitted to continue 

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1 to receive the benefits we have earned in our 

2 retirement years. You just don’t care to hear 

3 what --

4 In your decision, you just don't care to 

5 hear what they have to say. Surely, it couldn't 

6 be because you're afraid to make your case before 

7 the group of patriotic Americans. This rule is 

8 just as much about a family and community as it 

9 is about burning coal. 

10 You claim it will reduce health problems 

11 for some in the country, but ignore the fact that 

12 it will strip lifesaving healthcare from others. 

13 You talk about protecting the planet from severe 

14 weather, but you put families in the cold with 

15 the risk of losing all they have to work for.

16 There is something terribly wrong when an 

17 agency of my government cares about more trying 

18 to make a political statement than it does about 

19 its own people.

20 I have also heard about the promises of 

21 job creations that would result from the clean 

22 power plant. I hope you realize these are people 

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1 not 50 miles from up and down these rivers, where 

2 we sat at today, and still waiting on the jobs 

3 that the government said would be created when 

4 the steel industry was outsourced. Our first 

5 rebound in recent times, it was not because of 

6 government effects. It took 40 years. Think 

7 about it. Forty years for a city to recover from 

8 massive job loses. If that's what my children 

9 and grandchildren have to look forward to in the 

10 coal fields, then shame on you.

11 No other country in the world would 

12 follow such a ridiculous plan. Yes, I'm angry. 

13 You are throwing miners out of work, eliminating 

14 a piece of an American dream. You are subjecting 

15 our families to the uncertainty of a future 

16 without a hope and threaten the pension, 

17 healthcare my husband and I have earned.

18 The rule would decimate our communities, 

19 leaving us unable to sustain a way of life that 

20 has helped build this nation. Did any of you 

21 ever think to look at the damage you were causing 

22 and (inaudible) the results that the EPA plan 

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1 will really accomplish. I cannot see how you 

2 could possibly have done that and arrive at your 

3 decision. 

4 Most of all, I'm angry because you have 

5 made it clear that a decision has been made, and 

6 this sham you call a hearing will not change a 

7 thing to stop the ridiculous plan. A plan that 

8 any thinking person could see will kill jobs here 

9 and do nothing to fix the problem of the climate 

10 control. So thank you.

11 MR. KOERBER: Thank you.

12 Mr. Schilling?

13 MR. SCHILLING: My name is Ken Schilling, 

14 S-c-h-i-l-l-i-n-g. I'm the General Manager and 

15 CEO of Western Electric Cooperative, 

16 headquartered in Marietta, Ohio. I'm speaking on 

17 behalf of the Ohio Rural Electric Cooperatives 

18 and its 25 member systems which serve the rural 

19 areas of Ohio.

20 I am here today to testify against the 

21 EPA's proposed rule to control greenhouse gas 

22 emissions from existing fossil fuel powered 

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1 plants. Rural elective cooperatives are a unique 

2 subset of the electric utility industry due to 

3 the rural service territories that we have.

4 In Ohio, electric cooperatives supply 

5 electricity to 40 percent of the geography of our 

6 state in order to reach just 8 percent of our 

7 population. My electric cooperative has an 

8 average residential consumer density of just four 

9 members per mile of line. 

10 Rural households have a higher than 

11 average monthly use as well due to accommodation 

12 of housing stock, exposure, appliance profiles 

13 such as septic systems, pump the water, et 

14 cetera. Rural per capita income in my Noble 

15 County territory is a full 27 percent lower than 

16 the state average. Unemployment in my Monroe 

17 County service area sits stubbornly at 11 percent 

18 due in no small part to power plants closures in 

19 neighboring areas.

20 Given the rural life statistics, you can 

21 readily understand that rural electric 

22 cooperative members pay a disproportionate price 

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1 for energy, regulatory policy, which drives costs 

2 higher.

3 Our retail members tell us survey after 

4 survey that they require affordable, reliable, 

5 and environmentally responsible electricity in 

6 that order. We and our wholesale power provider, 

7 Buckeye Power, Incorporated, have strived to fill 

8 that mission, as we have assembled a portfolio of 

9 generation resources, which includes coal, 

10 natural gas, peeking plants, hydroelectric, wind, 

11 agriculture biogas, and landfill gas.

12 Also, Buckeye Power and its member 

13 systems are recognized nationally as early and 

14 lasting leaders in a demand side management. 

15 First instituted in 1973, it has expanded over 

16 the years to control 114,000 electric water 

17 heaters, 9,000 home heating units, and 8,300 air 

18 conditioning systems. This has served members' 

19 interests, as it's helped to control cost, 

20 improve efficiencies, and delay the need to 

21 procure the next power plant.

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1 Ohio rural electric cooperative are 

2 committed to a clean environment. Recently 

3 Buckeye Power completed the installation of a 

4 state of the art scrubber and non-selective 

5 catalytic converter technologies on its coal6 fired plants. It did this well ahead of the 

7 statutory deadlines and now owns one of the 

8 cleanest coal fleets in the world. 

9 These improvements came at a high price 

10 to my members. Wholesale rates effectively 

11 doubled in the last 10 years, and now we are hit 

12 again with another proposed rule, one that will 

13 require our coal plant operations be diminished 

14 in order to meet new EPA-established goal of 30 

15 percent reduction in CO2. This action only serves 

16 to delude the investments we have made in 

17 environmental technology and will force my 

18 members to pay twice for the replacement of that 

19 capacity.

20 This rule is complex, 645 pages long, 

21 along with another 600 supporting technical 

22 documents referenced. While we are still 

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1 digesting its implications, our early impact 

2 analysis suggest that our rural members will see 

3 a retail rate increase of $40 to $50 a month and 

4 for what? The 30 percent CO2 reduction -- if the 

5 32 percent CO2 reduction is achieved, it would 

6 diminish the rise of global temperature by a mere 

7 0.18 degrees, 0.018 degree through the year of 

8 2100, 2100. This is a lot of pain for no gain, 

9 and one of the reasons that climate change issues 

10 stays anchored at the bottom of the list of 

11 Americans' concerns.

12 Make no mistakes, my members' top concern 

13 is affordability. Many are struggling now and 

14 month after month, as my office staff are faced 

15 with tragic stories of how desperate they are to 

16 scrap together enough cash to keep the lights on.

17 I've been working at a rural electric 

18 cooperative for 37 years and at Washington 

19 Electric for 19 years. I know the people want to 

20 pay their bills, but their incomes don't rise, 

21 job opportunities disappear, and government 

22 proclaims a continuous barrage of new rules that 

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1 have very little impact on the environment. 

2 People become desperate and angry.

3 I know what the havoc such regulation is 

4 going to have on the households in my area, and I 

5 encourage you to withdraw the rule, to evaluate 

6 more measures that are affordable, achievable, 

7 and reasonable.

8 Thank you very much. 

9 MR. KOERBER: Thank you, sir, and 

10 thank you, ma'am. We appreciate being here and 

11 helping us on this rule. We do appreciate it.

12 Is it something I said? We have more. 

13 We're not done yet.

14 I'd like to call Brendon Wolf and Abby 

15 Resnick.

16 Mr. Wolf, when you're ready.

17 MR. WOLF: Thank you. Good afternoon. 

18 My name is Brandon Wolf, W-o-l-f. I'm the 

19 president and assistant business manager of Local 

20 459 of the International Brotherhood of 

21 Electrical Workers. I'm a third generation IBW 

22 member. Local 459 is headquartered in Johnstown, 

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1 Pennsylvania, which represents nearly 2,000 

2 members and over a dozen counties in our 

3 commonwealth of Pennsylvania as well as Maryland 

4 and New York.

5 Most specific, at issue before us today, 

6 approximately half of that membership is employed 

7 in some form or capacity directly working for or 

8 supporting coal-fired generated electricity power 

9 plants. From janitors, general utility workers, 

10 material handlers, heavy equipment operators, 

11 welders, mechanics, electricians, and control 

12 room operators, our members provide the labor 

13 upon which electricity is generated throughout 

14 southwestern Pennsylvania. 

15 The IBW estimates the job impacts of 

16 EPA's proposed clean power rule indicate the 

17 potential loss of 52,000 permanent direct jobs by 

18 2020 in the utility, rail, and coal sectors due 

19 to power plants retirements and the loss of 

20 167,000 total direct and indirect jobs. These 

21 direct jobs are all highly skilled, highly paying 

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1 jobs, typically in a rural community without 

2 opportunities for comparable employment.

3 While many may recognize that the bulk of 

4 workers in the coal-fired generating industry

5 work directly for a generating company, many of 

6 them also work as contractors, supporting the 

7 electric generation process. Stating the 

8 obvious, such workers are members of the 

9 community in which they live. Most are married, 

10 have children, dine at a local restaurant, shop 

11 at local shops, malls, and numerous vendors in 

12 the community in which they live. All of them go 

13 to work and do the best they can to improve the 

14 quality of life in their families and 

15 communities.

16 With regard to employees of the companies 

17 that support the coal-fired generation process, 

18 many are modestly paid with decent benefits. The 

19 drawdown of coal-fired generation will hit these 

20 people the hardest, largely because their job is 

21 specifically related to plants currently in 

22 existence. Their ability to just pick up and 

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1 move to another location in or around another 

2 field is severely limited. 

3 Inevitably, many will be at risk of 

4 losing their home, uprooting their family life, 

5 and forcing the hard decision of relocating with 

6 their children to another place and taking, in 

7 all likelihood, with less pay and for sure fewer 

8 benefits, and as a consequence, a much lower 

9 standard of living.

10 Obviously, their current job and related 

11 benefit structure allows them to put food on the 

12 table, pay their rent or mortgage, pay their 

13 property taxes to ensure quality of education for 

14 their kids, send their children to a local 

15 community college/university, and hopefully take 

16 a vacation across the commonwealth, thereby also 

17 providing economic support to the limited 

18 recreational activities we all enjoy.

19 After employment, these members typically 

20 remain in the community in which they live, due 

21 to a large part of the respectable benefits 

22 package they earn while employed for numerous 

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1 years of service. Without such strong employment 

2 opportunities, such an American dream would not 

3 be possible.

4 The suggested changes and vision in the 

5 Clean Power Plan pose a very significant risk to 

6 these very respectable jobs and, in turn, well7 established communities. Inevitably, 

8 implementation of the proposed rules will 

9 significantly degrade the communities in which 

10 these people live, work, are educated in, and 

11 contribute.

12 While there is no doubt that policies and 

13 regulations are needed in order to maintain and 

14 improve our environment at home in Pennsylvania, 

15 in the United States, and worldwide, the current 

16 proposed regulations are too much, too fast, and 

17 too soon. 

18 Specifically, the plan should provide 

19 states with credit for prior CO2 reductions as an 

20 option towards meeting a reasonable national 

21 target for reducing CO2 emissions for the electric 

22 power sector. 

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1 EPA's compliance time table is 

2 unrealistic and unachievable, even with multiyear 

3 compliance, averaging towards the interim and 

4 final targets.

5 The initial reduction program should be 

6 delayed for several years to allow states and 

7 affected sources adequate time to prepare and 

8 submit state plans and to structure and implement 

9 compliance strategies in the most flexible, least 

10 cost manner.

11 And lastly, the rule is premature since 

12 we do not know the extent to which other nations, 

13 particularly large developing countries, will be 

14 willing to commit to a truly global program of 

15 greenhouse gas reductions.

16 We cannot go it alone and expect that our 

17 actions will have any meaningful climate impact

18 in a world economy that is using more coal and 

19 other fossil fuels every day. Developing nations 

20 already omit more CO2 than advanced industrial 

21 nations, and the Department of Energy projects 

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1 that their share of global emissions will grow 

2 steadily.

3 When viewed in the larger context that 

4 pollution producers' role energy generation 

5 around the world and US, such implementation is 

6 overreaching and not in the best interest of our 

7 citizens.

8 A more reasonable approach needs to be 

9 taken, specifically the Clean Power Plan needs to 

10 be reexamined in a much larger cause and effect 

11 context, and particular that of its economic 

12 impact on communities and the tangible as opposed 

13 to abstract overall environmental savings gained 

14 by implementation of such rules.

15 Thank you for the opportunity to speak 

16 before you today.

17 MR. KOERBER: Thank you, sir. 

18 Ms. Resnick?

19 MS. RESNICK: Hello. My name is Abby 

20 Resnick, A-b-b-y, R-e-s-n-i-c-k. 

21 I'm here today to express my support of 

22 the EPA's efforts to limit carbon pollution from 

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1 existing power plants and to urge much stricter 

2 reductions.

3 My family has experienced the harmful and 

4 painful effects of living in an environment where 

5 air quality is often poor. My mother suffered 

6 from asthma since childhood, but her lung 

7 conditions grew progressively worse when she 

8 moved to Pittsburgh, where she spent the last 

9 eight years of her life. Although she never 

10 smoked, she died from chronic obstructive 

11 pulmonary disease in March 2013.

12 My husband had severe asthma as a child 

13 and continues to deal with the disease as an 

14 adult. One of our three children has exercise 

15 asthma, and I also developed exercise asthma 

16 since moving to Pittsburgh almost three decades 

17 ago. I know all too well the damaging impacts 

18 that polluted air has on our health.

19 While I'm here today to share my family's 

20 story, I know our experience is far from unique. 

21 So many people in cities like Pittsburgh are 

22 going through the same experience. 

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1 I support the EPA's efforts to limit 

2 carbon pollution from existing power plants. I 

3 commend the EPA for taking action to mitigate 

4 climate change.

5 In the US, power plants are responsible 

6 for emitting nearly 40 percent of the carbon 

7 pollution that is fueling climate change. Warmer 

8 temperatures exacerbate the conditions, which 

9 create unhealthy air, which leads to more 

10 childhood asthma attacks and complications for 

11 those with existing lung and heart diseases.

12 When air pollution levels are unsafe, 

13 we're all at risk. If we do not make swift and 

14 significant emission reductions, generation after 

15 generation will experience the same health 

16 impacts from dirty air as my family.

17 However, the EPA must require much 

18 stricter reductions to protect our health and 

19 stop catastrophic global warming. Coal-fired 

20 power plants are not only contributing to climate 

21 change but are also polluting our air. We need a 

22 rapid transition toward a clean energy future, 

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1 away from dirty fossil fuels and towards clean, 

2 renewable forms of energy such as wind and solar.

3 Increasing our reliance on wind and solar 

4 will help clean our air and improve the health of 

5 my family. 

6 Turning to renewable energy will also 

7 bring new jobs. The solar industry along 

8 provides over 60,000 more jobs than coal. Now is 

9 the time to make this historic transition.

10 I appreciate you taking the time to 

11 listen to my comments today. I support the Obama 

12 administration in its efforts to limit the carbon 

13 pollution from existing power plants. The next 

14 step the EPA must take is to require more robust 

15 emission reduction targets and encourage large

16 increases and dependence on clean renewable 

17 energy.

18 I hope EPA will make this proposed rule 

19 stronger in order to protect people's health and 

20 prevent catastrophic climate change. Thank you.

21 MR. KOERBER: Thank you, ma'am. Thank 

22 you, sir. I appreciate you being here.

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1 Next I'd like to call Ed Good.

2 And I know I said I'd call people from 

3 Paris, but there's only one name on the card; and 

4 here come more cards. And John Atherton.

5 Mr. Good, when you're ready. 

6 MR. GOOD: Good morning. I want to thank 

7 you for this opportunity to provide thoughts and 

8 comments on the EPA's proposed Clean Power Plan.

9 My name is Ed Good, G-o-o-d. I'm the 

10 legislative director for the Utility Workers 

11 Union of America, AFLCIO. 

12 The UWUA represents 50,000 employees in 

13 the electric generation, distribution, and other 

14 utility industries. The UWUA strongly supports an 

15 all-of-the-above energy strategy as opposed to an 

16 all-but-one-of-the-above strategy. My comments 

17 today are not limited to my role as a UWUA member 

18 but also as an elected local government official 

19 and consumer.

20 First and foremost, I'm a proud member of 

21 the UWUA for over 35 years. The majority of 

22 those years I primarily worked in a coal-fired 

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1 power plant. My first 30 plus years was spent at 

2 the first energy RE Burger Plant in Mead 

3 Township, Belmont County, Ohio. 

4 On February 23, 1995, 100 persons lost 

5 their jobs when units 1 and 2 were deactivated 

6 due to compliance issues with the Clean Air Act 

7 and Amendments. On November 17, 2010, some 15 

8 years later, it was announced units 3, 4, and 5 

9 would be shut down, again, due to the cost of 

10 environmental compliance.

11 Due to today's hearing schedule and 

12 format, there simply is not enough time to 

13 properly convey the impact these and other unit 

14 closures has on employees, the community, and 

15 local services. Having taken office in 1996, I 

16 am currently a township trustee in Mead Township 

17 where the Burger Plant is located. The negative 

18 impact that takes place when a plant closes is 

19 devastating. Local government, along with other 

20 services such as libraries, schools, health, 

21 park, and fire districts suffer or in some cases 

22 are simply eliminated.

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1 I have attached a report detailing the 

2 loss of over $1.68 million to the Shadyside local 

3 school district and over $146,000 loss to Mead 

4 Township as a result of the Burger Plant closure 

5 alone.

6 Understanding the need to address global 

7 climate change, it is just that, a global 

8 challenge. The absence of border adjustments on 

9 goods produced in high-carbon, low-control 

10 countries should not and cannot be ignored. 

11 Regions like here in Appalachia cannot be 

12 expected to bear the cost of solutions to this 

13 global challenge alone.

14 Shakeb Afsah, an economist who runs an 

15 energy consulting firm, recently stated, "Energy 

16 exports bit by bit are chipping away at gains we 

17 are making on carbon dioxide domestically."

18 Another issue that cannot be ignored is 

19 the problem of methane emissions from natural gas 

20 distribution pipelines. Last month the US EPA 

21 Office of Inspector General issued a report 

22 detailing the improvements needed and the EPA's 

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1 efforts to address those emissions. The EPA 

2 Inspector General noted the following on page one 

3 of that report: "Methane is a potent greenhouse 

4 gas. It has a global warming potential of 25 

5 times that of carbon dioxide. In addition to 

6 contributing to global climate change, methane 

7 emissions also worsen ground level ozone problems 

8 and can kill trees and other vegetation. 

9 Emissions from leaks and natural gas distribution 

10 pipelines are comprised almost entirely of 

11 methane."

12 The US EPA, other regulators, and federal 

13 agencies need to address this complex issue with 

14 a coordinated approach, working with the 

15 Department of Energy to advance carbon capture 

16 sequestration. Department of Energy needs to 

17 address the displaced worker issue, and 

18 (inaudible) concerning electric power reliability 

19 and security are just a few examples of the 

20 coordination that will be necessary to 

21 effectively deal with the problem of greenhouse 

22 gas emissions in the power industry.

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1 Stakeholders, especially those expected 

2 to be impacted the most, must have a seat at the 

3 table in the process.

4 In closing, the UWUA would like to also 

5 urge the EPA to extend the comment period by at 

6 least 60 additional days in order to allow 

7 interested parties to file comments concerning 

8 EPA's proposed Clean Power Plan.

9 Thank you for your time and attention.

10 MR. KOERBER: Thank you, sir.

11 Mr. Atherton.

12 MR. GOOD: I have attachments.

13 MR. KOERBER: That would be great. I'd 

14 love to take those. We will make sure those get 

15 entered into the record, including your request 

16 for an extension of comment period. Thank you, 

17 sir. 

18 MR. ATHERTON: Good afternoon or morning. 

19 My name is John Atherton. That's A as in apple, 

20 t-h-e-r-t-o-n. And I'm a concerned citizen. I 

21 teach at Seton Hill University, about 40 miles 

22 outside of Pittsburgh here.

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1 I have a pamphlet that I will be giving 

2 to you if you want it. 

3 Converting now to renewable energy makes 

4 sense with the head and sense with the dollars. 

5 This home-grown energy lowers costs, grows local 

6 jobs, improves personal health and safety, an 

7 advances our national security.

8 At the state level, one example, New 

9 York. There's a very good report out on this. 

10 New York state can achieve 100 percent, 100 

11 percent renewable energy for electricity,

12 vehicles, and industry by the year 2000 (sic). I 

13 have the citation here.

14 Renewable rates cost will be lower than 

15 for fossil fuels and nuclear. Wind and solar 

16 projects alone will provide over four million 

17 long-term construction jobs for over 10 years and 

18 40,000 permanent jobs after construction. All 

19 energy revenues remains in the state and continue 

20 to fuel the local economies.

21 Health benefits include thousands of 

22 lives and billions of dollars saved because 

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1 renewable energy eliminates pollution from coal 

2 and shale gas industries. Health costs, that is 

3 illness, premature deaths, and crop harm of air 

4 pollution from fossil fuel-powered vehicles and 

5 electric generation is $33 billion a year in New 

6 York State alone.

7 A quote I have, "We can see over a 30 

8 percent target now from generating renewable 

9 energies and seek a 90 percent target later, and 

10 every step the target will move towards lower 

11 costs than today's systems." This conclusion 

12 comes from the International Journal of the Power 

13 Source where Budischak and all others found that 

14 quote, "Diverse renewable generation and excess 

15 capacity together mean electric loads with less 

16 energy storage and lower total system cost." 

17 Budischak assumes that the community that they're 

18 talking about here, PJM, would use today's 

19 technology for wind (inaudible) with batteries 

20 and fuel cell storages. Technology advances in 

21 renewables will further decrease costs. That's 

22 the local level.

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1 On a national level, the US is behind 

2 many other nations. The solar in Europe alone is 

3 installed over 10 times the amount of photo solar 

4 TV as it is in the United States. In wind, China 

5 and India has increased by 50 percent while we 

6 have only added 17 percent.

7 Currently, wind power employs more 

8 Americans than all coal mining, transportation,

9 and combustion. On shore wind alone in suitable 

10 windy sites on available land could generate 9.5 

11 times as much electricity as the US used in the 

12 entire year of 2010.

13 Globally, international energy agencies 

14 aligns measures with no net cost that benefit 

15 from human health, economies, and the climate. 

16 These measures emphasize energy efficiency and 

17 phasing out fossil fuel use.

18 The conclusion here is very clear. 

19 Americans need to catch up with the rest of the 

20 world in using renewable energies. Engineering 

21 and economic experts agree that the faster we 

22 phase out fossil fuels, the faster we will enjoy 

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1 better health through cleaner air and water, more 

2 income through lower energy costs, more 

3 sustainable jobs, more homegrown energy at more 

4 predictable prices, and a more secure national 

5 energy future. We need to get going on those 

6 points. Thank you.

7 MR. KOERBER: Thank you, Mr. Atherton and 

8 Mr. Good. Thank you both.

9 If you have extra copies, that would be 

10 great. We'd be happy to keep those. Thank you. 

11 Thank you, sir. Thank you.

12 Next I'd like to call Cynthia Walter.

13 MS. WALTER: No one else?

14 MR. KOERBER: No. I'm sorry. Just one 

15 name on the card.

16 MS. WALTER: Okay. All right. 

17 Well, thank you. My name is Cynthia 

18 Walter, W-a-l-t-e-r, and I am from Greensburg, 

19 Pennsylvania. 

20 Many of my students -- I don't know if 

21 Mr. Good is here. I think he may have just left. 

22 But, anyway, many of my students and folks in my 

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1 area do work and live in association with the 

2 coal industry. It's very important in our area.

3 The problem I see though is that those 

4 jobs are leading us in the wrong direction. The 

5 skills of the men that that gentleman talked 

6 about who are losing their jobs, those skills are 

7 desperately needed by the renewable energy 

8 sector. 

9 We need -- as we change from this EPA 

10 ruling to better energy sources, we need to 

11 coordinate that with labor efforts that will give 

12 those people the jobs that they deserve. For 

13 example, one of the electrical person who had 

14 great electrical installment skills used in the 

15 fossil fuel industry got smart and said, you 

16 know, I'm going to learn how to install solar 

17 panels, and with a small amount of training and a 

18 lot of good effort on his part, he know is a 

19 solar panel installer. He put them on our house. 

20 Now our house has solar panels. We have no 

21 worries. We have energy security. We have no 

22 air pollution coming from our house.

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1 So we can have a win-win situation if the 

2 EPA works very closely with the labor departments 

3 and other folks to make sure that those jobs that

4 everyone is so worried about will transition 

5 because those folks have great skills.

6 Now, if we don't. If you guys get 

7 kowtowed by all this hullabaloo that you hear on 

8 the press and everybody else screaming with their 

9 t-shirts and everything else, if you guys get 

10 kowtowed and you back off of your regulations, 

11 here's some of the problem that will occur. 

12 Okay. Here's my asthma medication, $40 a month. 

13 Here's my heart -- well, that's my phone. Here's 

14 my heart medication, you know, $40 a month. 

15 Here's the emergency room visit, three hundred 

16 and some dollars per year, you know. What are we 

17 looking at? The cost of this air pollution in 

18 our own country is severe from our own coal-fired 

19 power plant.

20 So I'm not blaming them for my health or 

21 my children's health and so on, but I'm saying 

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1 you guys have to move us in the better direction. 

2 You have to hold the line.

3 The other reason that you need to hold 

4 the line is something that you're not going to 

5 see very much in Pennsylvania, except on your 

6 dinner plates. This is clam, Alaskan Pollock. 

7 This is one million men's and women's employment, 

8 one million of them. They're not here today. 

9 They're not at many of your hearings. They're 

10 out in their boats desperately trying to catch 

11 the fish who are fewer and fewer.

12 What does fish have to do with climate 

13 change and everything else? I think you know the 

14 answer. It's ocean acidification. It's the loss 

15 of our coral reefs. So here I am in Pennsylvania 

16 talking about coral reefs and oceans because this 

17 is one of the best, and cheapest, and best 

18 quality food that people can get.

19 So we eat this here, but the whole nation 

20 needs our fisheries. Those fisheries bring in 

21 between 32 -- this is on federally (inaudible) 

22 references; I'll get it to you when I get -- send 

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1 you the email -- $32 to $70 billion a year is our 

2 fishery industry. It's enormous, but these folks 

3 are so busy trying to catch fish that they're not 

4 at hearings; and they need a voice, and they need 

5 to have you hear them.

6 So thank you for being here, and I'll

7 take my trash and go. 

8 But, really, it's great. I think we can 

9 all win here. If you guys just hold the line and 

10 get us off of this fossil fuel addiction. Like 

11 any addict, the addict is going to scream, and 

12 crawl, and say I can't live without it; but we 

13 know we can liv without these fossil fuels, and I 

14 fully agree with the fact that methane and shale 

15 gas has worsened our air quality here to a huge 

16 degree. Shale gas is not going to be the answer 

17 to our energy problem. It's only energy 

18 efficiency and renewable energy that will get us 

19 where we all need to go. Thank you.

20 MR. KOERBER: Thank you, ma'am.

21 We're going to take a five-minute break. 

22 I don't have any more cards. I don't know if 

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1 there are any other speakers in the room who have 

2 signed up for this morning's session. We have a 

3 hand at the back. Okay. 

4 Let's take a five-minute break to give 

5 the court reporter and the panel a chance to 

6 stretch for a minute, and then we'll resume about 

7 10:50.

8 (Off the record from 10:43 a.m. to 10:53 

9 a.m.) 

10 MR. KOERBER: Thank you all for your 

11 patience. We'll get started again.

12 I'd like to call Angela Wiley and Susan 

13 Frant.

14 Ms. Wiley? 

15 MS. WILEY: Good morning. My name is 

16 Angela Wiley. I grew up in Morgantown, West 

17 Virginia, but I've been spending a lot of time 

18 here in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, over the past 

19 six years.

20 This morning -- I'm going to read a 

21 testimony submitted to the US Environmental 

22 Protection Agency in support of the US EPA's 

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1 Clean Power Rule. This testimony was submitted 

2 by Ellen McNulty, part of the Arkansas Wildlife 

3 Federation.

4 "Thank you for this opportunity to submit 

5 formal testimony regarding EPA's proposed Clean 

6 Power Plan Thank you for the opportunity to 

7 submit formal testimony regarding EPA's proposed

8 Clean Power Plan. My name is Ellen McNulty and

9 I'm from Pine Bluff, Arkansas.

10 I want to express my support for EPA's

11 historic action to combat climate change by

12 setting limits on carbon pollution from existing

13 power plants.

14 We have an obligation to protect future

15 generations from the impacts of climate change.

16 We also have an obligation to protect wildlife and

17 our natural resources. Our warming climate is

18 posing one of the greatest threats to wildlife

19 today, and as a person with a strong family

20 history of hunting, I applaud EPA for taking

21 action to combat the root of the problem - carbon

22 pollution.

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1 My brother and I still own our family's

2 farm located near Stuttgart, Arkansas, the Rice

3 and Duck Capital of the World. Harvest in our

4 area has always been a time of anticipation and

5 preparation for duck season.

6 Duck season is not only a way of life in

7 our area, it is also a way to provide for our

8 families. Duck hunters from all corners of the

9 earth travel to our area to hunt. They hunt our

10 fields and woods, they shop in our stores, they

11 eat in our restaurants and they sleep in our

12 motels and lodges.

13 In recent years, we have experienced

14 warmer temperatures at the beginning of duck

15 season with fewer ducks to hunt. The hunting

16 schedule has been adjusted to accommodate later

17 arrival of ducks and scientists are convinced

18 that climate change, including warmer

19 temperatures, more ice-free days, and changes in 

20 precipitation, is causing fewer ducks to migrate

21 south for the winter. Sportsmen and women are

22 concerned that climate change could potentially

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1 change the Mississippi Flyway and seriously 

2 diminish waterfowl hunting in our area.

3 The Arkansas Department of Environmental

4 Quality reported that Arkansas generated about 37

5 million metric tons of carbon emissions in 2012.

6 Two of our state's coal-fired power plants are

7 included in a 2011 list of the 50 most polluting

8 power plants. The CEO's of these companies will

9 tell you that they cannot afford the upgrades

10 that the Clear Power Plan will require, but

11 really, we cannot afford to allow these power

12 plants to keep polluting.

13 Reducing reliance on coal burning for

14 power generation in the US will protect wildlife

15 by reducing carbon pollution and other harmful

16 pollutants that poison fish and threaten all

17 animals who eat them. This rule will reduce the

18 need for more coal mining that's destroying

19 precious wildlife habitat, and it will reduce the

20 number of leaking toxic coal waste ponds that put

21 our lakes and rivers in harm's way.

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1 As you finalize the standard, I ask that

2 you work to ensure that it achieves the deepest

3 reductions possible by requiring states to use

4 wildlife-friendly renewable energy and energy

5 efficiency, and not simply more natural gas

6 burning.

7 Arkansas can and should do more to

8 generate power from renewable sources like wind

9 and solar and reduce energy demand through

10 energy efficiency.

11 Thank you for the opportunity to comment

12 today. I hope you will do everything you can to

13 ensure it stays strong through the process. 

14 Wildlife and future generations are counting on

15 your leadership."

16 Thank you for letting me reads on behalf 

17 of Ellen.

18 MR. KOERBER: Thank you.

19 MS. FRANT: Good morning. My name is 

20 Susan Frant, and I'm going to read testimony from 

21 someone else. 

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1 But I wanted to tell you that for 26 

2 years I worked for Nuclear Regulatory Commission 

3 and retired as a senior executive, and so in the 

4 nuclear industry, we're certainly familiar with 

5 transitions for workers and varying needs for 

6 power and needs for that type of power.

7 So I'm going to read this morning on 

8 behalf of Lynn Iser. She as supposed to speak 

9 yesterday but couldn't make it. So on behalf of 

10 Lynn: 

11 "I am the founder of Elder-Activists, a

12 website that is committed to inspiring,

13 educating, and supporting those of us in the

14 second half of life to use our life experience

15 and wisdom to create a thriving and just world

16 for future generations.

17 To begin, I am fully supportive of the

18 EPA's proposed standard, and I believe that it

19 should be implemented promptly and without

20 being weakened in any manner. 

21 As a woman and a mother I am concerned

22 about leaving a viable planet for future

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1 generations. I feel the pain of my children, who

2 are worried about the multitude of world crises

3 that they learn about which are caused by climate

4 change.

5 Our culture and our nation uses the

6 resources of this precious planet solely for our

7 own use with little thought for the needs of our

8 children and grandchildren for clean water, clean

9 air, food, minerals, and other natural resources

10 that they will also need in order to create

11 thriving lives for themselves.

12 Carbon pollution causes climate change,

13 resulting in more frequent and increasingly

14 violent extreme weather events, drought, rising

15 sea level, and other environmental stressors that

16 devastate communities, threaten public health, 

17 and destroy and degrade wildlife habitat. These

18 environmental stressors have an impact on social

19 issues as well, causing families to experience

20 food shortages, farmers to lose their crops and

21 income, mass migrations caused by famine and

22 drought, among a multitude of socio-political

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1 issues that arise from increased climate

2 instability.

3 Pennsylvania now creates nearly one

4 percent of the world's total heat trapping

5 emission, far disproportionate to our

6 population. It is our responsibility, as

7 educated leaders, to set reasonable carbon

8 pollution standards for power plants. This will

9 cut the primary driver of climate change, which

10 fuels extreme weather that threatens communities

11 and the public health with increasing costs and

12 worsening impacts. Of course, climate change

13 deniers want you to distrust the science and

14 ignore the impacts and costs of climate change

15 already being felt by communities and wildlife

16 across the country. I urge you to support the

17 proposed standard and thank you for this

18 opportunity to be heard today.

19 In our decision making we do not factor

20 in the cost of pollution, waste, or our over use

21 of natural resources. We do not consider the

22 issues of sustainability so that future

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1 generations can have the same level of natural

2 resources as we do. Our thinking is shortsighted

3 and frankly selfish."

4 That last remark is from Lynn Iser. I 

5 want to make that clear. 

6 Thank you very much for this opportunity.

7 MR. KOERBER: Thank you both, and my 

8 thanks to Ms. McNulty and Ms. Iser. Thank you.

9 Next I'd like to call Jonathan Gray and 

10 Jim Britsch. 

11 Mr. Gray, when you're ready.

12 MR. GRAY: My name is Jonathan Gray, G-r13 a-y. I've been a resident of Pittsburgh for 

14 three years, and I was born and raised in Western

15 Colorado.

16 When I sat down last night to write this

17 testimony, I was deeply conflicted as to what to

18 talk about. I'm the grandchild of united mine

19 workers. I'm a staffer for a statewide

20 environmental advocacy organization, and until my

21 term expired this morning, I was the Vice

22 Organizing Chair of Fight Back Pittsburgh, the

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1 community union of United Steelworkers Local

2 3657.

3 All of these experiences color my

4 thoughts on this rule, but I feel that I would

5 do best to speak as just an individual and as 

6 someone who has seen firsthand what global

7 warming means for our environment.

8 Growing up in Colorado, my winters were

9 spent snowboarding, and my summers camping. I

10 remember going to Bear Lake in Rocky Mountain

11 National Park as a child and playing in the

12 woods. Now those woods have been devastated by

13 Mountain Pine Beetles, beetles that used to be

14 kept in check by cold and harsh Colorado winters

15 that no longer happen.

16 We've lost millions of acres of Ponderosa

17 and Lodgepole pines, and the gorgeous views I had

18 as a child have been replaced by miles of rotting

19 wood.

20 The ski resorts I grew up on see less

21 and less snowfall every winter, and the shortened

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1 ski seasons have put friends who rely on those

2 tourists out of work.

3 Worst still, the front range of the 

4 Rockies where my grandparents lived spends months 

5 out of every summer blanketed in soot and smoke 

6 from forest fires that rage out of control, fires 

7 that are sped up from a drought that I don't even 

8 remember the beginning of.

9 And the city of Boulder where many of my 

10 friends have lived was all but wiped off the map 

11 by floods that feel like something straight out 

12 of the Book of Genesis.

13 This EPA has acknowledged all of these 

14 events, and they've rightly identified that all 

15 of this is being worsened by climate change. The 

16 science on this is clear. Unless we act now, 

17 this is only the beginning of the horrifying 

18 impacts that my generation, our children, and our 

19 grandchildren will have to live with, unless we 

20 manage to act now.

21 I support this proposal to limit carbon 

22 pollution from the largest contributors to this 

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1 pollution, and I do so as an environmentalist, a 

2 man from a union family, and an advocate for the 

3 rights of all people in this country to enjoy the 

4 planet that we live on.

5 I applaud the EPA for taking this step, 

6 and I only can pray that it isn't too little, too 

7 late.

8 MR. KOERBER: Thank you, Mr. Gray.

9 Mr. Britsch?

10 MR. BRITSCH: My name is Jim Britsch. 

11 That's spelled B-r-i-t-s-c-h. I'm here speaking 

12 on behalf of Local 29 of the International 

13 Brotherhood of Electrical Workers and its 101 

14 members that work in our coal power stations.

15 We're here today because our members are 

16 concerned about the loss of their jobs due to the 

17 EPA's proposed Clean Power Plan.

18 The IBEW estimates that the Clean Power 

19 Plan could kill 52,000 direct jobs and more than 

20 100,000 associated positions by the year 2020. 

21 The shutdown of the Elrama Power Station, 

22 which we represented, and the Mitchell Power 

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1 Station a couple miles down the road from it, has 

2 had a very negative effect on the West Elizabeth, 

3 Pennsylvania community. 

4 The local Sunoco gas station is 

5 struggling to stay open. Johnny's Drive-In 

6 restaurant is just a couple breakfasts away from 

7 closing its doors. Scotty's Bar and Grill, known 

8 for its fish sandwiches -- they used to order 40 

9 pounds of fish a week -- they don't even order 

10 anymore.

11 These businesses thrived for years, and 

12 that's not to mention the workers in the two 

13 closed plants. These aren't just numbers. These 

14 are people with families; people with good life15 sustaining jobs; people that spend their money in 

16 the community. They shop for clothes, go to the 

17 restaurants, send their kids to the school. They 

18 pay their taxes. These are the things that 

19 maintain the economy in these local communities.

20 The truckers hauling the coal and ash, 

21 the barges going up and down the river hauling 

22 coal, the contracted craft workers that come in 

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1 to work in the plants during their outages, these 

2 are all lost with the closing of a plant.

3 EPA projects that this rule will cause 

4 the loss of 41 to 49 gigawatts of coal-generating 

5 capacity by the year 2020. These retirements are 

6 in addition to the 92 gigawatts of coal capacity 

7 that the EPA is already projecting will shut down 

8 between 2012 and 2020, due in large part to the 

9 compliance with the 2012 Mercury and Air Toxic 

10 Rule.

11 We believe that these things raise 

12 serious, serious concerns for the reliability of 

13 the electric power supplies. Gas alone is not 

14 the answer. Last winter during our polar vortex 

15 here in western Pennsylvania, natural gas wasn't 

16 available for our gas power stations to run. 

17 What would we have done without the coal and 

18 nuclear stations that we have?

19 America needs a genuine bipartisan energy 

20 plan from Congress that grows our economy, 

21 renovates our aged energy infrastructure, reduces 

22 carbon emissions, and sets a realistic plan for 

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1 cleaner air. Politicians from both parties need 

2 to come together and craft a serious blueprint 

3 that can meet these goals.

4 Our recommendations that we have include 

5 providing credit to states that have already 

6 reduced carbon emissions to help meet EPA targets 

7 and also a delay in the implementation of the 

8 Clean Power Plan to give states and utilities 

9 adequate time to implement compliance with these 

10 strategies.

11 Thank you for allowing me to express my 

12 concerns on this important issue today.

13 MR. KOERBER: Thank you, sir. Thank you 

14 both for being here.

15 I'd like to call Greg Winks and Nichole 

16 Catino.

17 Is Ms. Catino in the room? No? Okay. 

18 Mr. Winks, it looks like you're flying 

19 solo.

20 MR. WINKS: Okay. Thank you. I'm here 

21 to speak on behalf of Gil Frost, who is from 

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1 Glenside, Pennsylvania, and was not able to 

2 attend in person today.

3 "I am Gil Frost, a resident of Glenside, 

4 Pennsylvania, and proud to be the proprietor of 

5 Frost Contracting, a home repair and improvement 

6 firm. 

7 I completely support the EPA's proposed 

8 standard, and it should be implemented as soon as 

9 possible without being diluted in any way. I 

10 could not come to Pittsburgh today to read my 

11 testimony in person because I am busy running my 

12 business. On reflection, it is best that I do my 

13 part to limit greenhouse gases and avoid the 

14 extra carbon pollution of a 600-mile roundtrip. 

15 I am not alone in my concern about carbon 

16 pollution. Frost Contracting always encourages 

17 our clients to enhance their homes and businesses 

18 in ways that decrease a building's energy 

19 footprint, thus, decreasing their carbon 

20 footprint. We are always pleasantly surprised by 

21 our clients' openness to these suggestions and 

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1 eagerness to carry them out, even if they are 

2 paying a bit more upfront."

3 Mr. Frost continues by saying, "My 

4 customer simply reflect the mood of the American 

5 people who are ready, even yearning, for the 

6 government to lead on climate change. 

7 Researchers from Harvard and Yale conducted a 

8 poll and observed that a majority of US citizens 

9 support clean energy and climate change policies. 

10 The researchers found that the average US citizen 

11 is willing to pay $162 more per year in higher 

12 electricity bills for clean energy.

13 I'm excited by what I see in my clients 

14 and what the research tells us about the American 

15 people. Citizens are motivated to address 

16 climate change, and they're willing to support 

17 their concerns with their wallets.

18 It is helpful that people are taking 

19 steps to reduce the carbon footprints, their 

20 homes, and are willing to pay for cleaner energy, 

21 but it's not nearly enough. Coal-fired power 

22 plant emit carbon dioxide, the primary driver of 

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1 climate change into the atmosphere, and citizens 

2 are powerless to limit it, except for their 

3 Environmental Protection Agency, which has the 

4 authority to do something.

5 It seems the onus has been on individuals 

6 to limit their carbon footprint while power 

7 plants refuse to do their part that is neither 

8 right nor sustainable. It is time for the EPA to 

9 do what it has the authority to do, set 

10 reasonable limits on carbon pollution from power 

11 plants.

12 Please implement the proposed standard as 

13 soon as possible without making changes to it at 

14 all. Thank you."

15 This is from Gil Frost. Thank you very 

16 much.

17 MR. KOERBER: My thanks to you, my thanks 

18 to Mr. Frost.

19 MR. WINKS: Okay.

20 MR. KOERBER: Thank you.

21 Did Nicole Catino -- okay. 

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1 Do we have any people in the room who 

2 have signed up to speak? We're going to check 

3 and see if there are any more speaker cards 

4 coming up. Please bear with us while we wait. 

5 Thank you. 

6 We're back in session. Ms. Catino, 

7 whenever you're ready. 

8 MS. CATINO: Sure. Okay. Well, hello. 

9 My name is Nicole Catino. That's spelled, N-i-c10 o-l-e, C-a-t-i-n-o, and I recently moved to 

11 Pittsburgh from a small town about an hour north 

12 of Philadelphia. So I'm Pennsylvania born, 

13 raised, and educated.

14 After graduating from Lafayette College 

15 last year with a degree in engineering, I worked 

16 as a canvasser for Pen Environment and Pen Perg 

17 (phonetic). And when I wasn't busy traveling the 

18 world, in my spare time I also worked for Green 

19 Mountain Energy, which is an electric generation 

20 supplier that provides clean renewable energy to 

21 my fellow Pennsylvanians and also my fellow US 

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1 citizens in the other states in which they 

2 operate.

3 So what brought me to Pittsburgh just 

4 three months ago is my current job as a Green 

5 Cities sustainability fellow with the Student 

6 Conservation Association and partnership with 

7 AmeriCorps, and in this position I work with Pen 

8 Future, which is a statewide membership base 

9 nonprofit that fights for clean air, land, and 

10 water for policies at both the state and local 

11 level. And more specifically, I'm tasked with 

12 leading their Black and Gold City goes Green 

13 campaign, which is a project that works to reduce 

14 carbon pollution from residential sources here in 

15 Pittsburgh by promoting energy efficiency and 

16 renewable energy in my neighbors' homes.

17 And although I'm proud of these 

18 organizations and the work that they do, the 

19 views that I'm representing here are my own.

20 So as you might have guessed from the 

21 brief overview of my resume and background, this 

22 is an issue that is very near and dear to my 

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1 heart, and I want to thank you guys for all the 

2 work that you put into the Clean Power Plan and 

3 also for taking the time to hear concerns and 

4 perspectives from us common folk, regardless of 

5 our stance on the issue.

6 As for me, I fully support the EPA's 

7 proposed standard, and I want it to be 

8 implemented as soon as possible without it being 

9 altered or weakened in any way -- well, not 

10 altered but not weakened.

11 And so the reasons I support this plan 

12 are many, most of which you've probably heard 

13 thousands of times by now. From the public 

14 health and economic factors to environmental 

15 sustainability, the current blank check that is 

16 given to major carbon polluters negatively 

17 impacts all areas of our lives.

18 From the surface, the electricity 

19 generated from fossil fuel seems cheap because of 

20 the infrastructure already in place and the 

21 billions of dollars in subsidies that go to 

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1 support the industry but is actually costing us 

2 more in the long run.

3 And also, during my undergraduate 

4 studies, I had the opportunity to work on a 

5 project that was titled Air Quality in Lehigh 

6 Valley, and this was of particular importance to

7 me because being as asthmatic I was interested in 

8 how growing up in my environment influenced and 

9 effected my health, and the cost of my well-being 

10 for life and for future.

11 And just the estimated cost of 

12 implementing this plan, which ranged from $7.3 to 

13 $8.8 billion are significantly overshadowed by 

14 the climate and health benefits that are 

15 associated with it, which are estimated to be 

16 between $55 and $93 billion by 2013, and that 

17 positive return on investments will only drive 

18 further innovation in energy efficiency and clean 

19 energy technologies; and with the full adoption 

20 of the clean power plan, the United States has 

21 the opportunity to be a global leader in 

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1 addressing climate change and setting the 

2 standard for a sustainable future for us all. 

3 And you've heard the statistics. The 

4 science is there to prove it, and now it's time 

5 to act on climate. My mother always told me to 

6 leave the place better than when you found it, 

7 and whether that be my room, or our campsite, or 

8 the world, it is our responsibility, both 

9 individually and collectively, to care for each 

10 other and the Earth, which gives us life so that 

11 the next person can enjoy it as much as we did.

12 And although we still have a long way to 

13 go, the Clean Power Plan is a great necessary and 

14 logical first step in making positive change.

15 So I want to thank you again for your 

16 time and the opportunity to share and express 

17 these views, and I hope you all have a fantastic 

18 rest of the day. Thank you.

19 MR. KOERBER: Same to you, and thank you 

20 for being here today.

21 MS. CATINO: Thank you.

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1 MR. KOERBER: We're checking to see if 

2 there are more speakers. 

3 (Off the record from 11:17 a.m. to 11:21 

4 a.m.)

5 MR. KOERBER: Okay. Thank you for your 

6 patience. I'm told we have no more speakers this 

7 morning. We'll break early for lunch. So have a 

8 good lunch. We will re-adjourn in this room at 

9 1:00 p.m. Thank you all.

10 (Off the record from 11:22 a.m. to 1:06 

11 p.m.)

12 MR. HARVEY: My name is Reid Harvey. I'm 

13 the Division Director for EPA's Clean Air Markets 

14 Division. I am the Chair in this afternoon's 

15 hearing. So thank you for coming today.

16 Joining me on the panel to my left are 

17 Donna Mastro, EPA's Region 3, with the Office of 

18 Regional Counsel, and on my right is Andrew 

19 Kreider, also EPA Region 3 in the Air Division.

20 So we're here today to listen to your 

21 comments on our two proposed rules to reduce 

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1 carbon pollution from power plants. Both of 

2 those rules were announced on June 2, 2014.

3 As you may know, power plants are the 

4 largest source of CO2 emissions in the United 

5 States, accounting for roughly a third of all 

6 domestic gas emissions. 

7 So the two rules are -- the first one is 

8 our proposed Clean Power Plan for Existing Power 

9 Plants, and as you may know, this consists of two 

10 main parts, state specific goals that would lower 

11 carbon pollution from power plants and then 

12 guidelines that would help states develop their 

13 plans for meeting those goals.

14 That proposal gives states flexibility in 

15 determining how to meet their goals. States 

16 choose what goes into their plans that show how 

17 they will achieve the needed reductions and meet 

18 their goals by 2030.

19 The second rule is EPA's Proposed Rule to 

20 address carbon dioxide emission from modified and 

21 reconstructed power plants. This rule would set 

22 emission limits for two groups of power plants, 

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1 those that make physical or operational chances 

2 that increase the plants maximum achievable 

3 hourly rate of emissions and those that replace 

4 components to such an extent that the new 

5 components exceed 50 percent of the capital cost 

6 of an entirely new comparable facility.

7 So if you'd like more details on either 

8 of those proposed rules, there are fact sheets 

9 available in the building here. I don't see them 

10 --

11 MR. KREIDER: They're in the back.

12 MR. HARVEY: Okay, great. They're 

13 blocked by the pillar.

14 Today's hearing is one of four public 

15 hearings across the country on the two rules. 

16 We've had tremendous interest in each of these 

17 hearings. So I'd like to thank you for being 

18 here to share your comments with us.

19 Before we get started, I'd like to go 

20 through a few housekeeping items and ground 

21 rules. 

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1 So, first, if you haven't already, please 

2 be sure you've checked in at the registration 

3 desk, even if you're not planning to speak today. 

4 If you signed up in advance to speak but haven't

5 told us that you're here, please step to the 

6 registration desk and let the EPA staff know that 

7 you've arrived.

8 So if you're a speaker, you were given a 

9 room letter when you checked in, and this is Room 

10 B. So if you're not in the right room, this is 

11 the right time to switch. 

12 So how is this going to work? I'm going 

13 to call speakers up in pairs, and you'll come up 

14 and sit over here together. When I call on you 

15 to speak, first state your name and then spell it 

16 for the court reporter. Your comments will be 

17 transcribed, and the record will reflect that 

18 transcription in the proposed rule.

19 Each speaker will have five minutes to 

20 give comments, and we'll have a light, which 

21 Donna Mastro will be operating initially. And 

22 the light will turn from green to yellow, and 

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1 that means you have one minute remaining. When 

2 it turns red, that means it's time to wrap up, 

3 and when it's flashing red and beeping, then you 

4 have to stop.

5 When you're finished speaking, please 

6 remain at the table until the person next to you 

7 has also completed his or her testimony, and then 

8 we'll ask clarifying questions after that. And 

9 then after the two of you have gone, I'll call up 

10 the next pair of speakers and so on.

11 If you have any written materials for us, 

12 you can give that to the staff at the 

13 registration desk before you leave today. It's 

14 also helpful if you have an extra copy for our 

15 court reporter as well.

16 So just to remind everyone, to be fair, 

17 we're going to strictly enforce our five-minute 

18 limit. If you have additional comments you'd 

19 like to make, you can submit them in writing. I 

20 want to assure you that we give as much 

21 consideration to comments that we receive in 

22 writing as we do to comments that we receive at 

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1 hearings like this one today. So if you have 

2 more you'd like to say, we look forward to 

3 receiving your comments, and we will review them.

4 There's plenty of time to get those 

5 written comments in, and there are also comment 

6 cards available at the registration desk.

7 Comments must be received by October 16, 

8 2014, and we will put any written comments 

9 submitted today in the official docket for the 

10 proposed rule. The instructions for submitting 

11 written comments in other ways are available at 

12 the table near the registration desk. 

13 We're going to be holding this meeting 

14 until 8:00 p.m. tonight. We're going to take 

15 short breaks throughout the day as needed. I 

16 will take a dinner break probably between 5:00 

17 and 6:00 p.m.

18 So if you do have questions during the 

19 day, please see the staff at the registration 

20 desk, and someone will help you. 

21 And so finally, and most importantly, I 

22 want to ask each of you to be respectful of 

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1 everyone who speaks today. We have people with a 

2 wide variety of views in the audience, and we 

3 want to hear from all of you. So to be fair to 

4 everyone, we ask that everyone listen quietly. 

5 Even applause can slow things down, and we want 

6 to hear from everyone who has signed up to speak.

7 So thank you, again, for taking the time 

8 today to share your comments on EPA's proposed 

9 rules, and let's get started.

10 Our first two speakers are Stephen 

11 Whitworth and Jonathan Gensler. If you could 

12 join us at the table.

13 And we'll start with Mr. Whitworth. Mr. 

14 Gensler has been seated. I'm not sure who is 

15 who.

16 MR. WHITWORTH: Good afternoon. My name 

17 is Stephen Whitworth, W-h-i-t-w-o-r-t-h, and I'm 

18 Director of Environmental Services for Ameren 

19 Corporation. 

20 Ameren is a public utility holding 

21 company with electric and gas utility operating 

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1 subsidiaries serving over three million customers 

2 in Illinois and Missouri.

3 Ameren believes the proposed rule is 

4 legally and technically flawed, will result in 

5 unnecessary significant cost increases to our 

6 customers and business, cause job loss, and 

7 damage the economy. However, before I discuss 

8 our concerns, I will describe what Ameren has 

9 been doing to protect the environment and our 

10 plans going forward.

11 For many years, Ameren has been taking 

12 steps to reduce emissions with the goal of 

13 transitioning our fleet to a cleaner, more 

14 diverse portfolio. We have installed scrubbers 

15 and other pollution control devices, improved 

16 unit efficiency, converted landfill gas to 

17 energy, contracted for wind power, expanded our 

18 nuclear capacity, promoted and are installing 

19 solar power, increased hydro capacity, and 

20 implemented significant energy efficiency

21 programs in both Illinois and Missouri.

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1 We have made progress in reducing our 

2 carbon footprint and are executing a 20-year plan 

3 designed to reduce emissions even further in a 

4 responsible manner. Our plan involves adding 

5 more renewables and combined cycle natural gas, 

6 increasing energy efficiency, retiring coal 

7 plants at the end of their useful lives, and 

8 replacing them with cleaner resources, as well as 

9 retaining options for greater levels of nuclear 

10 generation. 

11 Our plan can achieve a 30 percent 

12 reduction from 2005 emission levels over a 

13 slightly longer time frame, at a cost to 

14 consumers that we currently estimate at nearly $4 

15 billion lower than the cost of EPA's proposed 

16 rule for Ameren customers alone.

17 Turning now to EPA's proposal, Ameren 

18 recommends that EPA define and limit the emission 

19 standards based solely on what is achievable at 

20 existing power plants. States should then be 

21 given the flexibility to develop any programs 

22 that achieve an equivalent emissions reductions. 

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1 If EPA rejects this proposal, numerous other 

2 changes should be made, and I will highlight a 

3 couple of them now.

4 First and foremost, EPA should eliminate 

5 the aggressive interim goals that start in 2020. 

6 Failure to make this adjustment will cause Ameren 

7 to incur $2 billion in capital investments by 

8 2020, which will in part lead to nearly 4 billion 

9 of higher rates for customers through 2034. We 

10 recommend you replace the interim requirements 

11 with a directive to states to develop nine 

12 binding emission reduction milestones that are

13 reasonably achievable and reflect the state's 

14 view of the appropriate glide path to the final 

15 state reduction goal. This single action will 

16 greatly reduce the cost of the rule and will 

17 provide greater flexibility to states.

18 We also believe that the target 

19 compliance date should not be set in stone at 

20 2030. Rather, states should be given the 

21 flexibility to extend the date in order to allow 

22 the orderly transition of generation fleets. 

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1 This will help mitigate the potential for 

2 reliability concerns and rate shock, which would 

3 be particularly harmful to our fixed and low 

4 income customers.

5 For Ameren, the compliance date would be 

6 2035, yet significant reductions would occur 

7 prior to that time. These changes would save 

8 Ameren's customers nearly $4 billion when 

9 compared to the proposed EPA rule and still 

10 achieve similar greenhouse gas reductions.

11 Ameren also believes the rule will not 

12 properly credit coal plant retirements that are 

13 not replaced with new generation under a rate14 based compliance program. It is assumed that 

15 under a rate-based program both emissions of CO2

16 and the megawatts generated from retired plants 

17 are removed from the emission rate calculation 

18 when determining compliance. 

19 This approach does not properly reflect 

20 the emission reduction gain because it provides 

21 only a minor reduction in the overall emission 

22 rate. In order to properly reflect the benefits 

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1 of coal plant retirements, these units should be 

2 treated as zero emitting units, whereby the 

3 associated megawatts remain in the denominator, 

4 similar to the treatment of energy efficiency.

5 In addition, Ameren believes the rule suffers 

6 from overaggressive assumptions about the 

7 reduction potential in each of the four proposed 

8 building blocks contained in the rule. However, 

9 I'll focus on two of them.

10 With respect to building block one, EPA

11 has overestimated the amount of reduction that

12 can be achieved by efficiency improvements on

13 existing EGUs. Many companies, including Ameren,

14 already engage in the best practices built into

15 block one, and the level of any additional

16 reduction is limited. Ameren has also completed

17 improvements to enhance plant efficiency and

18 reduce emissions. The additional two percent

19 reduction that EPA has included in the target is

20 also simply not achievable.

21 With respect to building block two, 

22 Ameren does not own existing natural gas combined 

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1 cycle generating unit. Moreover, certain of

2 these generating units may have permit

3 limitations, warranty and/or other contractual

4 arrangements that preclude their operation as

5 assumed in the proposed rule. 

6 In addition, the proposal would require

7 the states to achieve the emission goal via

8 increased dispatch; however, in RTO markets, it

9 is FERC, not states that regulate the RTOs.

10 Thus, the proposed rule imposes a requirement on

11 states that they do not have the authority to

12 implement.

13 In conclusion, Ameren believes the 

14 proposed rule is legally and technically flawed 

15 and will result in unnecessary significant cost 

16 increases to our customers and business, cause 

17 job losses, and damage the economy. 

18 We'll be filing comments which will 

19 provide greater detail on all issues of concern, 

20 and we urge EPA to read them carefully and give 

21 due consideration.

22 Thank you very much.

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1 MR. HARVEY: Thank you.

2 MR. GENSLER: My name is Jonathan 

3 Gensler, G-e-n-s-l-e-r. Thank you for the 

4 opportunity to testify today. 

5 I'm going to be specifically on the 

6 national security threats posed by climate change 

7 and how the proposed carbon standards and the 

8 Clean Power Plan will make us safer as a nation 

9 while promoting global stability and economic 

10 opportunity.

11 I'm a former captain in the United States 

12 Army, a veteran of the Iraq War. I had the 

13 distinct honor of fighting alongside some of the 

14 best women and men in this country during two 

15 combat tours in Iraq.

16 Just like those who served before me, I 

17 joined the military to protect my country and 

18 because I believed that the opportunities and 

19 liberties that we hold dear should be available 

20 everywhere.

21 It was in these men and women of the 

22 greatest generation as they beat back from the 

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1 most ruthless tyranny that the modern world have 

2 ever seen in World War II. Emerging victorious 

3 then, they proceeded to rebuilt Europe and the 

4 world by promoting freedom and democracy for all, 

5 even while staring down the Soviet threat.

6 Although today's world is very different 

7 than it was back then, we must be prepared to 

8 employ that same strategy of setting aside self9 interest and confronting threats to global 

10 security. I say "we" specifically because this 

11 new challenge we face will require not only 

12 American action but American leadership.

13 Climate change is the most urgent, 

14 creeping, and insidious global threat that we 

15 face today. It is a silent enemy that 

16 exacerbates every single challenge to global 

17 security and prosperity because of the way that 

18 it creates hotspots, and for extremism to take 

19 foot and fuel instability. 

20 Around the globe, we are already seeing 

21 rising sea levels, and there's increased 

22 frequency and intensity of extreme weather events 

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1 like droughts, floods, storms, wildfires. These 

2 impacts of climate change are already 

3 accelerating and exacerbating the risk of 

4 conflict and destabilizing countries with weak 

5 infrastructure and governance, as we've seen in 

6 the drought in Syria, as we've seen with Typhoon 

7 Haiyan in the Philippines, as we see today in 

8 Sub-Saharan Africa. 

9 Destabilized states, like Afghanistan in 

10 2001, Yemen, Somalia, Nigeria today become safe 

11 havens for radical groups. If we've learned 

12 anything from the past decade of war, it is that 

13 far flung areas from across the world can and 

14 will have a direct national security impact here 

15 at home. (Inaudible) think of the 14,000 DOD 

16 personnel that were dispatched to my New York 

17 City home after Hurricane struck, the 12,000 that 

18 were dispatched last year to the Philippines 

19 after Typhoon Haiyan, or the once every two weeks 

20 global request for humanitarian assistance that 

21 the Department of Defense receives somewhere 

22 around the globe. The pace of that and indeed 

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1 the cost of that in both blood and treasure is 

2 only likely to go up.

3 That is why the EPA's standards to curb 

4 emissions for power plants is so critical. It 

5 represents the largest action taken by any 

6 government to address the threat of climate 

7 change, and is a sort of bold transiting action 

8 that is expected of the United States in response 

9 to a challenge and is certain to reap us huge 

10 rewards.

11 Make no mistake, it's a national security 

12 imperative that we do meet that standard. I know 

13 firsthand the cost of the sacrifice that we stand 

14 poised to make.

15 I'm a native of southern West Virginia. 

16 I have made the drive down Corridor G from 

17 Charleston to coal country several times. Every 

18 time I do, just before I get into Madison, I 

19 cross a bridge named for Captain Ben Tiffner 

20 (phonetic), a friend of mine, a classmate at 

21 WestPoint, who was killed by a roadside bomb in 

22 Iraq in the winter of 2007. 

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1 Every time I drive down there, I stop and 

2 get out, put my hand on the sign, and think about 

3 Ben. I think about the 93 other WestPoint 

4 graduates that have been killed in the decade of 

5 war that we had and the thousands and thousands 

6 of other American soldiers, and Marines, and 

7 sailors that have been killed or wounded.

8 To be sure, those who join the military 

9 know what we're signing up for, and we're 

10 prepared to make that ultimate sacrifice in 

11 defense of our nation. But as Americans, we have 

12 a responsibility to do everything we can to 

13 ensure we do not send them into harm's way 

14 unnecessarily.

15 If we fail to take action to combat 

16 climate change, if we continue to dither and 

17 delay, we are guaranteed to face that increase in 

18 global stability and greater risk, requiring our 

19 troops to defend the peace of volatile regions of 

20 the world. I keep asking myself, how can we 

21 continue to ask them and their families to bear 

22 that burden?

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1 This plan is a powerful step in the right 

2 direction. It puts the work and the hard 

3 decisions were it belongs, at the state level. 

4 They have to figure this out. This is a 

5 tremendous step of leadership by the EPA. It's 

6 making the states do something hard that they 

7 don't want to do, but that they have to do. They 

8 have the resources. They have the knowledge. 

9 They have the local know-how and the local 

10 awareness. They have to do this work.

11 How can anyone continue to stubbornly 

12 oppose economic growth at home, building a better 

13 world for generations to come, and working for 

14 global security? We simply must. We simply must 

15 act. Thank you.

16 MR. HARVEY: Thank you.

17 Now, we'll ask if we have any clarifying 

18 questions. Thank you both very much. 

19 We look forward to hearing our next 

20 speakers, who are Robert Mitchell and Rebecca 

21 Studer. 

22 When you're ready.

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1 MR. MITCHELL: All set. Okay. Thank you 

2 for hearing my statement today. My name is 

3 Robert Mitchell, M-i-t-c-h-e-l-l.

4 As a scientist and engineer with graduate 

5 degrees in physics and electrical engineering 

6 from Carnegie Mellon, I've been studying the 

7 climate change issue with increasing interest and 

8 concern over about the past five years.

9 And I briefly want to make three main 

10 points. The first point is about the -- what I 

11 see as the role of our government. Our nation is 

12 founded on the principle of balancing individual 

13 freedom of action on the one hand against the 

14 need for effective national governance on the 

15 other hand. We don’t want excessive government 

16 that intrudes on our individual liberties, but 

17 neither could we accept the weak government that 

18 was created after the Revolutionary War by the 

19 Articles of Confederation.

20 And so the founders of our nation 

21 produced a Constitution that established a

22 strengthened government that seeks to provide for 

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1 the common defense and promote the general 

2 welfare.

3 The founders recognized the need to 

4 address national level priorities such as defense 

5 that require large resources and long-term 

6 strategic planning. They understood that 

7 individuals, corporations, and even states cannot 

8 effectively deal with such resources or time 

9 scales.

10 My second point is the threat of climate 

11 change. We are now facing a problem that poses a 

12 great challenge to our general welfare and also, 

13 as we shall see, to our common defense. 

14 As the national and world scientific 

15 community has been telling us for more than two 

16 decades now, the emission of infrared active 

17 gases such as carbon dioxide is causing a range 

18 of harmful consequences. These include many 

19 things: increasingly severe heat and drought --

20 as we saw in 2011 in the Midwest and we're 

21 currently seeing in California -- the loss of 

22 glaciers and mountain snow packs that provides 

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1 water for drinking and for irrigation, rising sea 

2 levels that threaten our coastal cities, more 

3 severe storms like Sandy that are amplified 

4 further by the sea level rise, and acidification 

5 of our oceans that threatens the very root of the 

6 world's food chain. Each of these consequences 

7 alone is daunting, but taken together, I feel 

8 that they represent a truly frightening threat to 

9 our future, welfare, and safety.

10 Perhaps the Arctic ice cap provides the 

11 clearest warning, as its September volume is now 

12 about 25 percent of what it was just 40 years 

13 ago. We know this from both satellite imagery 

14 that shows the extent of the ice and from our 

15 Navy submarine's sonar measurements of ice 

16 thickness dating back to the 1950's.

17 The Northwest Passage that explorers 

18 sought for centuries is now a reality. Does 

19 anyone really believe that this could be a 

20 coincidence? And according to the Defense 

21 Department's 2014 Quadrennial Defense Review, 

22 "The pressures caused by climate change are 

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1 threat multipliers that will aggravate stressors 

2 abroad such as poverty, environmental 

3 degradation, political instability, and social 

4 tensions, conditions that can enable terrorist 

5 activity and other forms of violence.

6 All of these consequences amount to 

7 nothing less, I believe, than a war on our 

8 children, our grandchildren, and the generations 

9 that follow. It's a moral imperative that we 

10 ensure that our descendants will have the same 

11 fair shot at prosperity and freedom that we have 

12 enjoyed.

13 So my third point is about the need for 

14 government leadership on climate change. And so 

15 EPA, the government, is acting now as I believe 

16 the nation's founders intended to defend the 

17 general welfare of the national against an 

18 ominous threat. This action is necessary because 

19 the threat involves both time scales and 

20 resources that require a national level response.

21 It's only fair to say that these actions 

22 will cause some to lose their jobs, but if we 

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1 don't take action now, many, many more will be 

2 harmed. And while jobs will be lost in the coal 

3 and oil industries, many jobs will be created in 

4 the renewable energy sector.

5 Our nation has flourished, not by 

6 clinging to outmoded ideas or harmful 

7 technologies, but by harnessing our creativity to 

8 lead the world toward a safer and more prosperous 

9 future.

10 The proposed EPA guidelines are a small, 

11 very important step toward addressing the most 

12 critical, technical, and ethical issue of this 

13 century. They represent the beginning of what 

14 our government must do in confronting a problem 

15 that transcends individual, corporate, or state 

16 capabilities. The founders of our nation would 

17 expect no less.

18 And just to add one -- I guess my time is 

19 up, but, if anything, I would say that the 

20 regulations don't go far enough, and I think when 

21 people look back in a couple decades or so, 

22 they'll probably recognize that. Thank you.

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1 MR. HARVEY: Thank you, Mr. Mitchell.

2 Ms. Studer?

3 MS. STUDER: Yes. My name is Rebecca 

4 Studer. That's S-t-u-d-e-r, and I speak today 

5 for myself and the individuals belonging to the 

6 Green Sanctuary Committee of the First Unitarian 

7 Church of Pittsburgh and the Environmental 

8 Justice Group of the Unitarian Universalists, 

9 Pennsylvania Legislative Advocacy Network, who 

10 agreed to support this testimony. They are 

11 listed below.

12 One of our common principles is to affirm 

13 and promote respect for the interdependent web of 

14 all existence of which we are a part. Thus, we 

15 support the proposed decreases in carbon 

16 pollutants from existing power plants as a 

17 critical way of moving toward healthier lives and 

18 a more sustainable environment for all.

19 I'm a retired physiologist with many 

20 years researching how our bodies work and what 

21 can be done to return our systems to their normal 

22 function when things go wrong. I'm also a 

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1 grandmother with serious concerns about the world 

2 we are leaving to our children and grandchildren.

3 The proposed changes in the existing 

4 power plant carbon emissions can have important 

5 beneficial effects on our environment to diminish 

6 current adverse health effects of these 

7 pollutants as well as begin to affect changes 

8 that will minimize future, long-term climate 

9 change for a more livable planet.

10 The people of western Pennsylvania are no 

11 strangers to the negative health effects of 

12 carbon pollutants. Although the quality of our 

13 air has improved substantially over the past 

14 decades, the incidents of asthma in our children 

15 is still higher in many communities than the 

16 national average. The EPA estimates a decrease 

17 of up to 150,000 asthma attacks per year in 

18 children once the new standards are in effect. 

19 This would be a great important in the quality of 

20 life for many children in our area and across the 

21 nation.

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1 Children suffering from asthma often fall 

2 behind their piers due to frequent school 

3 absences. The medications they use to control 

4 their asthma can impact their ability to focus 

5 and retain information, thereby putting them at 

6 risk for failure in school. Frequent visits to 

7 emergency rooms due to severe asthma attacks are 

8 common and increase healthcare costs.

9 Statistics show that in Pennsylvania, 

10 asthma disproportionately impacts black, non11 Hispanic children. CDC control data from 2011 

12 reported that across Pennsylvania the asthma 

13 prevalence rate for white, non-Hispanic children 

14 was 10.9 percent while the rate for black, non15 Hispanic children is over twice that at 24.7 

16 perceive. It is estimate that more than 70

17 percent of the African-American population in the 

18 United States live within 30 miles of a power 

19 plants. These data highlight another moral and 

20 ethical issue associated with pollution from 

21 power plants and other sources. Those most 

22 impacted are often minority groups and 

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1 economically disadvantaged people with limited 

2 resources and options for relocating away from 

3 the most polluted areas.

4 Locally, Dr. Debra Gentile, Director of 

5 Research in Allergy, Asthma, and Immunology at 

6 Allegheny General Hospital states that it's been 

7 widely reported that 50 percent of Pittsburgh 

8 public school students are using a rescue inhaler 

9 for asthma. She is beginning a study to 

10 rigorously document the prevalence of asthma in 

11 several school districts with different 

12 socioeconomic demographics and air quality.

13 The short-term costs of asthma and other 

14 respiratory diseases in terms of emergency room 

15 visits, workdays lost, and school days lost is 

16 significant. Perhaps more important are the long 

17 term consequences for individuals' quality of 

18 life and our and other regions development and 

19 deployment of a healthy, educated, well-trained 

20 workforce.

21 I don't have asthma, but I did grow up 

22 watching an uncle struggle with the disease. And 

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1 while current treatments are certainly superior 

2 to what was available at that time, the knowledge 

3 and technology is available to change that. 

4 Failure to minimize known factors that cause 

5 disease is unethical, leaving people to deal with 

6 chronic respiratory and other debilitating 

7 conditions all their lives, the technology to 

8 diminish disease-causing pollution from existing 

9 power plants and to expand generation of electric 

10 power from cleaner renewable sources. 

11 Southwestern Pennsylvania is also no 

12 stranger to the consequences of a decline in a 

13 regions major economic driver. However, as 

14 during the decades following the loss of most of 

15 our steel industry, I have confidence in our 

16 ability to use existing technology for new energy 

17 production and deliver alternatives and generate 

18 new job opportunities and healthier environments 

19 to employ those whose current jobs will vanish 

20 during the transition to a cleaner power economy.

21 The Clean Power Plan gives the states 

22 wide latitude in the ways in which the new 

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1 standards are achieved and many states are well 

2 on their way to attaining the new standards 

3 without significant increases in cost to power 

4 for their consumers. We can and we must accept 

5 the challenge to transition from antiquated dirty 

6 power plants to cleaner power generation for 

7 ourselves and our future generations.

8 I thank you for the opportunity to speak 

9 today.

10 MR. HARVEY: Thank you. Thank you both.

11 The 

12 MR. MITCHELL: Do we turn hard copies 

13 into somebody here?

14 MR. HARVEY: I believe at the 

15 registration desk, or you can give them to us; 

16 and we'll take them downstairs, whichever you 

17 prefer.

18 One quick question for Ms. Studer.

19 MS. STUDER: Yes.

20 MR. HARVEY: I didn't fully capture all 

21 the names of the groups that you are here on 

22 behalf of. 

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1 MS. STUDER: Okay.

2 MR. HARVEY: Could you repeat those 

3 again?

4 MS. STUDER: Yes. It's the Green 

5 Sanctuary Committee, First Unitarian Church. I 

6 only speak for individuals in that committee are 

7 listed.

8 MR. HARVEY: Right.

9 MS. STUDER: They're listed here.

10 MR. HARVEY: Right. I see.

11 MS. STUDER: And the other organization 

12 is the Unitarian Universalists. I always think 

13 of it as UUPLAN. So I have to Unitarian 

14 Universalists Pennsylvania Legislative Advocacy 

15 Network.

16 MR. HARVEY: Okay.

17 MS. STUDER: Basically it's an 

18 organization that tries to look at current 

19 legislation --

20 MR. HARVEY: Right.

21 MS. STUDER: -- and trying to support 

22 that, that does improve our environment and 

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1 oppose --

2 MR. HARVEY: Right.

3 MS. STUDER: -- what we feel is 

4 detrimental. Most of the issues for people now 

5 focus, of course, on Marcellus shale --

6 MR. HARVEY: Right.

7 MS. STUDER: -- drilling in the state.

8 MR. HARVEY: And these are Pittsburgh 

9 area based or southwestern Pennsylvania based?

10 MS. STUDER: The church, the Green 

11 Sanctuary Committee is here in Pittsburgh.

12 MR. HARVEY: I see.

13 MS. STUDER: But it's also part of a 

14 larger Unitarian Universalists Association. So 

15 there are Green Sanctuary congregations scattered 

16 throughout the United States.

17 MR. HARVEY: I see.

18 MS. STUDER: The UUPLAN is Pennsylvania, 

19 across all of Pennsylvania.

20 MR. HARVEY: Right.

21 MS. STUDER: Okay.

22 MR. HARVEY: Thank you very much. 

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1 Any other questions?

2 Our next speaker today is Edward Wolking, 

3 Jr. And -- I'm going to pronounce this wrong so I 

4 apologize in advance -- Jamin Bogi.

5 MR. BOGI: Jamin.

6 MR. HARVEY: Jamin, sorry. 

7 So we'll ask Mr. Wolking to speak first.

8 MR. WOLKING: My name is Edward Wolking, 

9 W-o-l-k-i-n-g. I am an Executive Director of the 

10 Great Lakes Metro Chamber Coalition. I'm 

11 speaking on behalf of a mega-regional coalition 

12 of nearly 40 chambers of commerce.

13 The 12-state Great Lakes trading region

14 is the heart of our nation's manufacturing base,

15 accounting for 35 percent of US manufacturing

16 output and 40 percent of all US manufacturing

17 jobs. 

18 We have no quarrel with the objectives of 

19 the proposed rule, but we certainly have 

20 significant concerns of how we get there. We are 

21 concerned that the proposed regulations will 

22 greatly disrupt our manufacturing economy through 

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1 state-to-state disparities, higher electricity

2 prices, price volatility, and grid

3 destabilization.

4 The regulations will have enormous

5 impacts on coal-fired power. Coal provides

6 affordable, reliable base load power, crucial

7 for attracting and retaining our manufacturers. 

8 It provides continuous 7 by 24 power that can

9 be concentrated in large amounts at individual

10 large sites.

11 Manufacturing and coal together are

12 critically important to our region. 

13 Manufacturing makes up a large part of our

14 states' gross domestic product, from 12 percent 

15 in Pennsylvania to 28 percent in Indiana and 

16 outside of utilities has the largest economic 

17 multiplier of any of the economic sectors. Coal

18 provides more than half of the Great Lakes

19 region's electricity, up to 84 percent in

20 Indiana. 

21 Coal has many benefits over other

22 sources of fuel. It is abundant, easy to

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1 transport, energy-dense compared to other 

2 sources, and, again, reliable and affordable.

3 Although the proposal does not mandate 

4 any single method for meeting the CO2 target, it 

5 clearly directs states to adopt energy policies 

6 that shift electricity generation from coal to 

7 other sources such as renewables. We recognize 

8 the role that renewable resources can and should 

9 play. In fact, all of our Great Lakes states 

10 have already deployed renewable resources to 

11 support a portion of their electricity 

12 generation.

13 Now, these early actions are being used 

14 to support more aggressive targets for increasing 

15 amounts of renewable energy deployments in 

16 generation in the proposed rule. Nearly every 

17 Great Lakes state will need to at least double 

18 its deployment of renewable energy by 2029 from 

19 its 2012 levels, and Ohio and Pennsylvania will 

20 have to increase theirs by nearly eight-fold. 

21 These targets will be very difficult to meet and 

22 illustrate the uneven impacts of the proposed 

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1 rule. Another troubling area is the 1-1/2 

2 percent annual reduction target for energy 

3 consumption by state. EPA believes that a 1-1/2 

4 percent savings from efficiency policies is 

5 achievable and seems to be discounting the 

6 fundamental connection between economic growth 

7 and energy consumption.

8 As the state's economy improves, so too 

9 does energy consumption, which can lead to 

10 increased CO2 emissions. Will the state be 

11 penalized if it has worked hard to build a 

12 growing economy?

13 Our manufacturers need a reliable supply 

14 of electricity at stable prices in order to be 

15 competitive. Half our region, actually more than 

16 half of our region is in the PJM Interconnection 

17 RTO, which already has the largest amount of 

18 planned coal-fired power plants retirements. 

19 These regulations will accelerate this trend 

20 faster than the grid can adapt in the current 

21 electricity marketplace. For these reasons, we 

22 urge EPA to take four steps.

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1 Number one, fully utilize all of our 

2 energy resources. Keep the administration's 

3 pledge of an all-of-the-above strategy that truly 

4 seeks to maximize the benefits of coal. Commit 

5 to strong results-oriented funding levels for the 

6 national energy technology laboratory, which is 

7 leading the way with cutting edge R&D on clean 

8 coal technologies.

9 Number two, fully commit to CCS 

10 technologies and workforce retraining. 

11 Meaningful federal investment in CCS as well as 

12 beneficial reuse of carbon must be connected to 

13 requirements on coal-fired generation. We're 

14 going to need a skilled workforce to keep up with 

15 these significant changes and mitigate the likely 

16 job displacement. The EPA must engage all other 

17 agencies and stakeholders to construct a 

18 realistic pipeline of technology and people to 

19 achieve the environmental goals and build a 

20 growing economy.

21 Number three, not penalize states for 

22 their success. This is a national issue. Our 

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1 energy production and consumption does not start 

2 and stop at state borders. Compliance must not 

3 penalize one state at the gain of another.

4 And fourth and finally, carefully 

5 consider whether the benefits are worth the cost. 

6 The current course of CO2 emission reductions will 

7 likely produce similar positive results as would 

8 the proposed regulations over a comparable time 

9 period, as technology improves and replacement 

10 capacity comes online. Already China has made 

11 significant strides in its coal-fired fleet by 

12 importing American clean coal technologies.

13 Thank you for the opportunity to be here 

14 today. 

15 MR. HARVEY: Thank you.

16 When you're ready, Mr. Bogi.

17 MR. BOGI: Sure. Sorry. My name wasn't 

18 on there.

19 My name is Jamin, J-a-m-i-n, Bogi, B-o-g20 i. I work for the Group Against Smog and 

21 Pollution, also known as GASP, and we submit 

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1 these comments in support of the Clean Power 

2 Plan.

3 While the details of the plan are rather 

4 complicated, the big picture is simple to 

5 comprehend. Global warming threatens our nation, 

6 and carbon dioxide causes much of the warming. 

7 The EPA has the authority and the mandate to 

8 regulate carbon dioxide, and this proposal does 

9 just that.

10 Many comments have praised the reduction 

11 of carbon dioxide and the mitigation of global 

12 warming, and we applaud the EPA for taking this 

13 strong step by addressing emissions from our 

14 nation's largest single source of carbon dioxide. 

15 This action will be a model to countries around 

16 the world, and we should take pride in leading 

17 this fight; but as a nonprofit based in 

18 southwestern Pennsylvania that's also fought for 

19 45 years to reduce emissions that have short-term 

20 or even immediately toxic effects, such are 

21 particulate matter, sulfur dioxide, nitrogen 

22 oxides, air toxics, and other pollutants, we are 

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1 especially excited to see the co-benefits of 

2 reducing these pollutants that this rule will 

3 provide. 

4 Pittsburgh is known for its smoky past.

5 Many outsiders still have that image of the

6 city. While Pittsburgh no longer turns on

7 street lights at noon to see through the smoke, 

8 we do suffer from high levels of ozone and fine

9 particulate matter. Perhaps "The Blue Ozone

10 Haze City" or "The City With High Levels of

11 Microscopic Particulates" just aren't catchy

12 enough to have become our new nickname.

13 Our air quality slowly improves year

14 after year, but so does our knowledge of the

15 danger of these pollutants. GASP works to

16 reduce emissions from our own backyard sources,

17 such as three nearby coke works, including the

18 largest coke works in the nation, several steel

19 mills, heavy diesel traffic, and many more.

20 But we also need relief from upwind sources.

21 We are victims of emissions from power

22 plants in Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, and beyond.

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1 This rule addresses the entire electricity2 generating sector, nationwide, and, thus, 

3 reduces the ability for some to say why should 

4 we clean up when our neighbors aren't?

5 And what do we get by enacting this

6 plan? By 2030, there will be over 50,000 less

7 tons per year of fine particulates, and over

8 400,000 tons per year less sulfur dioxide and 

9 nitrogen oxides. These reductions will prevent

10 thousands of premature deaths, half a million

11 missed school and workdays, and up to 150,000

12 asthma attacks in children every year.

13 The plan is to be commended for its 

14 flexibility. States can use a variety of 

15 strategies to meet state-specific goals. 

16 States can also choose to work with neighboring 

17 states to create regional plans, if that makes 

18 sense to them. 

19 The proposal is the result of over a

20 year of direct engagement with stakeholders,

21 and in many ways it's just the next logical

22 step along a path the states started long ago.

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1 Forty-seven states already have demand-side 

2 energy efficiency programs. Almost four out of

3 every five states utilize renewable energy

4 portfolio standards or goals. The proposal

5 builds on the tested, proven successes already

6 achieved by many states. The proposal will

7 save far more in health benefits than its

8 estimated cost. The cost of doing nothing was

9 recently calculated by the White House Council

10 of Economic Advisers to be 19 times more per

11 year, so 19 times more. We cannot afford to

12 wait any longer.

13 What other changes might we see by 2030

14 beyond much cleaner air and a more stable

15 climate? We could see more creative

16 hydropower projects, like the several that

17 already exist on legacy dams and reservoirs in

18 the region and the many more being considered; 

19 solar panels on the top of every municipal

20 water tower, county courthouse, public works

21 garage; more energy efficient light bulbs being

22 sold for $1 in thrift stores, like a local

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1 electric utility did here recently; companies 

2 reducing power at night to reduce spikes in

3 demand and, thus, save their company lots of

4 money; geothermal power projects like in the

5 South Side Library a few miles from here, in a 

6 105-year-old building that added the technology

7 during renovation; vertical axis wind power

8 turbines like at Phipps Conservatory, or on 

9 farms, or in small towns, delivering power to

10 themselves and their neighbors. We see

11 flexibility, efficiency, resiliency, and jobs. 

12 Home, neighbors, towns, and cities that are 

13 smarter and stronger.

14 Thanks to the Green Building Alliance's 

15 leadership, Pittsburgh is home to one of the 

16 nation's few 2030 districts. 2030 districts 

17 are voluntary collaborate efforts where 

18 building owner and urban cores agree to slash 

19 energy and water use and transportation 

20 emissions. We will see states creating 

21 incentives for districts like Pittsburgh's. 

22 Thank you for the opportunity to comment.

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1 MR. HARVEY: Thank you.

2 I'm going to first check and see if we 

3 have clarifying questions.

4 A question for Mr. Wolking. So you're 

5 organization encompasses chambers of commerce 

6 from each of the states that were the Great 

7 Lakes; is that correct?

8 MR. WOLKING: Yeah. New York, 

9 Pennsylvania, Ohio, Michigan, Indiana, Illinois, 

10 Wisconsin, Minnesota.

11 MR. HARVEY: And how many members do you 

12 have?

13 MR. WOLKING: And some of the other 

14 states that are effectively in the trading 

15 region.

16 MR. HARVEY: These are the chambers of 

17 commerce that are geographically adjacent to the 

18 -- or is it broader -- or is it in that whole 

19 state?

20 MR. WOLKING: There are other states in 

21 the trading region --

22 MR. HARVEY: I see.

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1 MR. WOLKING: -- as it was defined by 

2 Brookings Institution in the early 2000s, Iowa, 

3 Missouri, Kentucky, West Virginia.

4 MR. HARVEY: Yeah. I was really asking 

5 about your membership per se.

6 MR. WOLKING: Yeah. Our membership is 

7 chambers essentially in the states that are 

8 bordering the great lakes.

9 MR. HARVEY: Right.

10 MR. WOLKING: Those eight.

11 MR. HARVEY: But the whole state, not 

12 just the counties near the lake?

13 MR. WOLKING: No. The whole state.

14 MR. HARVEY: Yeah, yeah. Okay, great.

15 MS. MASTRO: Including Pennsylvania?

16 MR. WOLKING: Yeah. Mm-hmm.

17 MR. HARVEY: Okay.

18 MR. WOLKING: Essentially if you think 

19 west of the Alleghenies and then around the cup 

20 of the lakes up through Minnesota.

21 MR. HARVEY: Yeah. That's clear.

22 All right. I have no further questions. 

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1 Hearing none, thank you for your time.

2 MR. WOLKING: Thank you.

3 MR. HARVEY: Do we have other speakers?

4 Okay. So we are going to go on recess. 

5 So thank you for being here, and we will resume 

6 when we have additional speakers that want to 

7 speak.

8 (Off the record from 1:48 p.m. to 2:16 

9 p.m.)

10 MR. HARVEY: This is Reid Harvey. We are 

11 now adjourning this session. Thank you for your 

12 attendance. 

13 (Whereupon, the session concluded at 2:17 

14 p.m.)

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