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OVERSIGHT OF STATE-RUN JUVENILE CORRECTIONAL FACILITIES KNOWN AS ‘BOOT CAMPS’

HEARING

BEFORE THE

SUBCOMMITTEE ON CRIME, TERRORISM, 

AND HOMELAND SECURITY

OF THE

COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY 

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

ONE HUNDRED TENTH CONGRESS

FIRST SESSION

DECEMBER 13, 2007

Serial No. 110–127

Printed for the use of the Committee on the Judiciary

(

Available via the World Wide Web: http://judiciary.house.gov 

(II)

COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY 

JOHN CONYERS, JR., Michigan, Chairman 

HOWARD L. BERMAN, California 

RICK BOUCHER, Virginia 

JERROLD NADLER, New York 

ROBERT C. ‘‘BOBBY’’ SCOTT, Virginia 

MELVIN L. WATT, North Carolina 

ZOE LOFGREN, California 

SHEILA JACKSON LEE, Texas 

MAXINE WATERS, California 

WILLIAM D. DELAHUNT, Massachusetts 

ROBERT WEXLER, Florida 

LINDA T. SA ́ NCHEZ, California 

STEVE COHEN, Tennessee 

HANK JOHNSON, Georgia 

BETTY SUTTON, Ohio 

LUIS V. GUTIERREZ, Illinois 

BRAD SHERMAN, California 

TAMMY BALDWIN, Wisconsin 

ANTHONY D. WEINER, New York 

ADAM B. SCHIFF, California 

ARTUR DAVIS, Alabama 

DEBBIE WASSERMAN SCHULTZ, Florida 

KEITH ELLISON, Minnesota 

LAMAR SMITH, Texas 

F. JAMES SENSENBRENNER, JR., 

Wisconsin 

HOWARD COBLE, North Carolina 

ELTON GALLEGLY, California 

BOB GOODLATTE, Virginia 

STEVE CHABOT, Ohio 

DANIEL E. LUNGREN, California 

CHRIS CANNON, Utah 

RIC KELLER, Florida 

DARRELL ISSA, California 

MIKE PENCE, Indiana 

J. RANDY FORBES, Virginia 

STEVE KING, Iowa 

TOM FEENEY, Florida 

TRENT FRANKS, Arizona 

LOUIE GOHMERT, Texas 

JIM JORDAN, Ohio

PERRY APELBAUM, Staff Director and Chief Counsel 

JOSEPH GIBSON, Minority Chief Counsel 

SUBCOMMITTEE ON CRIME, TERRORISM, AND HOMELAND SECURITY

ROBERT C. ‘‘BOBBY’’ SCOTT, Virginia, Chairman

MAXINE WATERS, California 

WILLIAM D. DELAHUNT, Massachusetts 

JERROLD NADLER, New York 

HANK JOHNSON, Georgia 

ANTHONY D. WEINER, New York 

SHEILA JACKSON LEE, Texas 

ARTUR DAVIS, Alabama 

TAMMY BALDWIN, Wisconsin 

BETTY SUTTON, Ohio 

LOUIE GOHMERT, Texas 

J. RANDY FORBES, Virginia 

F. JAMES SENSENBRENNER, JR., 

Wisconsin 

HOWARD COBLE, North Carolina 

STEVE CHABOT, Ohio 

DANIEL E. LUNGREN, California

BOBBY VASSAR, Chief Counsel 

MICHAEL VOLKOV, Minority Counsel 

(III)

C O N T E N T S 

DECEMBER 13, 2007

Page 

OPENING STATEMENT 

The Honorable Robert C. ‘‘Bobby’ Scott, a Representative in Congress from 

the State of Virginia, and Chairman, Subcommittee on Crime, Terrorism, 

and Homeland Security ....................................................................................... 1

The Honorable Louie Gohmert, a Representative in Congress from the State 

of Texas, and Ranking Member, Subcommittee on Crime, Terrorism, and 

Homeland Security ............................................................................................... 2

The Honorable John Conyers, Jr., a Representative in Congress from the 

State of Michigan, and Chairman, Committee on the Judiciary ..................... 4

WITNESSES 

Ms. Adora Obi Nweze, President, Florida NAACP, Miami, FL 

Oral Testimony ..................................................................................................... 9

Prepared Statement ............................................................................................. 12

Ms. Doris MacKenzie, Professor, University of Maryland, College Park, MD 

Oral Testimony ..................................................................................................... 16

Prepared Statement ............................................................................................. 18

Ms. Audrey Gibson, State Representative of Florida, District 15, Jacksonville, 

FL 

Oral Testimony ..................................................................................................... 33

Prepared Statement ............................................................................................. 35

LETTERS, STATEMENTS, ETC., SUBMITTED FOR THE HEARING 

Prepared Statement of the Honorable John Conyers, Jr., a Representative 

in Congress from the State of Michigan, and Chairman, Committee on 

the Judiciary ......................................................................................................... 5

APPENDIX 

Material Submitted for the Hearing Record .......................................................... 47

(1)

OVERSIGHT OF STATE-RUN JUVENILE CORRECTIONAL FACILITIES KNOWN AS ‘BOOT 

CAMPS’

THURSDAY, DECEMBER 13, 2007

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,

SUBCOMMITTEE ON CRIME, TERRORISM,

AND HOMELAND SECURITY

COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY, 

Washington, DC.

The Subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 2:37 p.m., in room 

2141, Rayburn House Office Building, the Honorable Robert C. 

‘‘Bobby’’ Scott (Chairman of the Subcommittee) presiding. 

Present: Representatives Scott, Conyers, Johnson, Jackson Lee, 

Gohmert and Coble. 

Also Present: Representatives Meek and Corrine Brown of Florida. 

Staff present: Bobby Vassar, Subcommittee Chief Counsel; Rachel King, Majority Counsel; Mario Dispenza (Fellow), BATFE 

Detailee; Kimani Little, Minority Counsel; and Veronica Eligan, 

Majority Professional Staff Member. 

Mr. SCOTT. The Subcommittee on Crime, Terrorism, and Homeland Security will come to order. 

I would first like to welcome our new Ranking Member, Judge 

Gohmert, who is taking over for my Virginia colleague, Randy 

Forbes. We have worked together on a number of things, and we 

look forward to working with you on this Subcommittee. 

I would like to welcome everyone to the hearing regarding Staterun juvenile correction facilities known as ‘‘boot camps.’’ Boot 

camps are modeled after military training camps and are considered as an alternative to conventional juvenile institutions, instilling discipline, structure and education in a manner that youths are 

not receiving at conventional school and in their home environment. Although the boot camp concept has its advocate, the reality 

is that we have had widespread reports of abuse by camp employees and reports of several fatalities at camps around the country. 

The system is simply not performing as intended, and children 

in many of these camps are in danger. One of the most recent high 

profile deaths is that of Martin Lee Anderson who died in a Florida 

boot camp on January 6, 2006. His case garnered significant public 

attention because there was a videotape of guards beating him because they believed that he was faking illness to get out of exercise. 

After beating him, the guards forced him to inhale ammonia smellVerDate 0ct 09 2002 12:54 Nov 08, 2008 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00005 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6601 H:\WORK\CRIME\121307\39706.000 HJUD1 PsN: 39706
2

ing salts. When he lost consciousness, the guards realized that he 

was seriously ill. But by the time medical help had arrived, it was 

too late to save his life. The guards and a nurse were charged with 

manslaughter and gross neglect. But in October 2007, all were acquitted of all charges. However, the case was the impetus to shut 

down some of the juvenile boot camp facilities. 

According to Professor Doris MacKenzie from the University of 

Maryland Department of Criminology, who is with us today, poor 

training, inadequate oversight and misguided policies have caused 

the abusive environments that many boot camps have become. 

Twenty States still operate boot camps despite the ongoing problems with them. The most recent death occurred in Colorado in 

May of this year to a 15-year-old boy named Caleb Jensen died 

from an untreated staff infection while incarcerated at Alternative 

Youth Adventures, AYA, in Colorado. He contracted an infection, 

realized he was ill and told facility employees over a period of several days that he was not well. But his claims were ignored. And 

by the time the counselor sat down to talk to him, Caleb slumped 

over and died from the very illness he had been complaining about 

for those days. Although Colorado revoked AYA’s license to operate, 

no charges have been filed against any of the employees. 

Another example of boot camp deaths include 14-year-old Gina 

Score who collapsed during a forced run at a South Dakota boot 

camp. She was 5’4’’ and weighed 226 pounds, obviously unfit for 

rigorous exercise, yet the guards forced her to run 2.7 miles in 77 

degree heat with 81 percent humidity. She passed out. Guards believed that she too was faking it, and they left her on the ground 

for 3 hours until she died of heat stroke, her body temperature 

having reached 108 degrees. Employees were charged with child 

abuse but were acquitted. 

Then there was Travis Parker, 13-years old who was incarcerated in a Georgia boot camp when he was killed by guards who 

held him to the ground for more than an hour while he pleaded for 

his asthma inhaler. They didn’t give it to him because they said he 

had a habit of asking for an inhaler, quote, whenever he was restrained. Six camp employees were indicted for felony murder, 

child cruelty and involuntary manslaughter, but the district attorney dropped all of the charges after a judge ruled in favor of the 

defendants in a pretrial motion. 

One thing in common to Martin Lee Anderson, Gina score, Travis 

Parker and Caleb Jensen is that none of the responsible guards 

were ever held criminally liable for the children’s deaths. This 

hearing will focus on whether States have begun to take adequate 

steps to ensure the protection of the civil rights of those who are 

committed to State-run boot camps and whether the boot camp concept has merit from a criminal justice policy perspective. 

Right now I would like to recognize our distinguished colleague, 

the Ranking Member of the Subcommittee, Congressman Louie 

Gohmert from the First Congressional District of Texas. 

Mr. GOHMERT. Thank you Chairman Scott. And I want to thank 

the witnesses for being here. I am looking forward to working with 

Chairman Scott and other Members of the Subcommittee on the 

important issues of this Subcommittee’s jurisdiction. I also want to 

express my admiration for my colleague, former Ranking Member 

3

Randy Forbes of Virginia, who served us this year as the Ranking 

Member of the Subcommittee. It is my hope, Mr. Chairman, you 

and I can maintain as effective a relationship as you and Ranking 

Member Forbes did earlier in this Congress. 

Today’s hearing on State-run juvenile facilities does concern me 

to some extent with regard to the scarce use of oversight resources 

that we have. I am tremendously personally sympathetic for anyone who has suffered, which has been laid out so articulately by 

the Chairman. And we are all aware of the tragic death of a juvenile at Panama City and the acquittal of the boot camp guards. 

That matter is now under Federal investigation, sounds appropriate, and we should do nothing to interfere with that investigation. 

But there is not a single correctional boot camp maintained by 

the Federal Government. The prosecution and confinement of juveniles is almost exclusively a State issue. Approximately 93 percent 

of all criminal prosecutions are conducted by State and local prosecutors and the percentage of State prosecutions of juveniles is 

even higher than that. According to the Bureau of Prisons, there 

are only 178 juveniles in the entire Federal prison system. Because 

there are so few juveniles in the system, the Bureau of Prisons 

does not even maintain a facility for juveniles and instead contracts 

with State, local and private entities for the confinement of juvenile 

offenders in the Federal system. 

Prison boot camp programs started in the 1980’s and were started for young male offenders originally convicted of nonviolent offenders. As the name suggests, boot camp programs are modelled 

after military boot camp training and involve a daily regimen, usually of physical training, work assignments and vocational training. 

Over half the States developed boot camp programs in the hopes 

of lowering the rates of recidivism among released offenders and 

reducing costs of housing offenders in traditional juvenile detention 

facilities and reducing crowding in those detention facilities. By 

most measures, the boot camp experiment seems to have met with 

mixed success in meeting those three goals. In recent years, some 

States have made the determination that the benefits are outweighed by the costs or problems with their boot camp programs. 

Other States determined they are better off keeping their boot 

camp programs. Neither case, I believe and hope that it will ultimately be agreed that those decisions should be made without 

undue influence from those of us in the Federal Government. 

Having been on the juvenile board of our county in Texas where 

I served as a district judge and later a chief justice, we looked at 

the proposition of having a day boot camp. We looked at other boot 

camps, talked to a lot of people that were involved in boot camps. 

We liked the idea of a day boot camp better than a residential boot 

camp and ultimately went with that and found there were many 

benefits from that. 

But as I think I understand from our witnesses and some of the 

indications, if all you do is a military-style regimen of physical activity, you are missing the entire boat. It has to be mixed with education and other assistance, vocational training, things like that, in 

order to help juveniles reduce recidivism. And additionally, I think 

everyone would agree, if you are going to have a program like that, 

4

it does require adequate accountability, monitoring and sometimes 

these programs have not had that. In any event, I look forward to 

hearing the testimony of the witnesses. And I will yield back the 

balance of my time, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. SCOTT. Thank you. 

The Chair recognizes the Chair of the full Judiciary Committee, 

Mr. Conyers, for a statement. 

Mr. CONYERS. Thank you, Chairman Scott. And I welcome Judge 

Gohmert to the Subcommittee as the new Ranking Member. And 

this is a very active Committee. And this subject matter is one that 

leads me to briefly say the following: I hope this hearing and any 

others that may follow it lead to a reexamination of the concept 

and purpose of juvenile boot camps. It has been observed already 

that these facilities don’t seem to be any more successful than 

other types of juvenile justice programs and do little more or sometimes less to prevent recidivism. It is also noted that education and 

drug rehabilitation programs play a major role in helping young 

people rehabilitate themselves. The second thing on my mind as we 

start these hearings is that we need to ensure that it is a crime 

for a child to be killed while being detained in a boot camp. We 

must ensure that children are not killed in boot camps and that 

there is adequate investigation and prosecution if harm, certainly 

death, occurs as a result of some mis-running or poor training on 

the part of those that are involved in these boot camps. 

I would like to recommend to this Committee that we inspect and 

visit every boot camp in the United States of America, whether it 

is State or private. I mean, this isn’t a matter of opinion of how 

we—whether you like boot camp or lump boot camps. These things, 

to me, at the outset—and I try to keep an open mind about everything I do here—have been a grievous mistake based upon a false 

criminal justice premise. And so I am anxious to hear from you 

who have been closer to this than me. 

And I ask unanimous consent to put my statement in the record. 

[The prepared statement of Mr. Conyers follows:]

5

PREPARED STATEMENT OF THE HONORABLE JOHN CONYERS, JR., A REPRESENTATIVE

IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF MICHIGAN, AND CHAIRMAN, COMMITTEE ON THE

JUDICIARY


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Mr. SCOTT. Without objection. 

The gentleman’s time has expired. Thank you very much, Mr. 

Chairman, for your statement. 

We have three witnesses with us today. Representative Hastings 

was here earlier to introduce our first witness, but we have many 

Representatives from Florida that have an interest in this hearing. 

And the first witness will be introduced by the gentleman from 

Florida, Mr. Meek. 

Mr. MEEK. Thank you so very much Mr. Chairman, and I am 

honored to be here to not only introduce the witness but what I 

consider a constituent in my district also and a great leader in the 

country. Adora Obi Nweze, president of the Florida NAACP and 

also a member of the national board has been a long-time educator 

in Miami/Dade County and also beginning her work as a teacher 

and working her way up to regional supervisor. I had an opportunity to work with Ms. Nweze when I was a member of the State 

legislature where we had a number of issues. And she has been a 

part of numerous committees and projects and building partnerships between the Florida Department of Education, also the Florida Department of Health, Corrections, Juvenile Justice, Elderly 

Affairs and Emergency Management. She has a bachelors degree 

from Fayetteville University and a masters of education degree 

from the University of Miami. She is also certified in the State of 

Florida in areas of elementary education, educational leadership 

guidance and counseling, social studies, mental retardation and 

specific learning disabilities. And Mr. Chairman, I believe that she 

will be able to give the full scope of the very issue that we are talking about here today. Thank you. 

Mr. SCOTT. Thank you. And I understand that she has a plane 

to catch so she will not be able to be here for the full hearing. And 

we apologize for the delay. We are almost 2 hours late in starting. 

Our second witness will be Dr. Doris Layton MacKenzie, who is 

a professor at the Department of Criminology and Criminal Justice 

at the University of Maryland and director of the Evaluation Research Group. She has an extensive publication record in the criminal justice area, including, among other issues, what works to reduce crime in the community, inmate adjustment to prison, impact 

to intermediate sanctions on recidivism and boot camp prisons. She 

has directed research projects on, among other topics, multi-State 

study on correctional boot camps and descriptive study of female 

boot camps. She has a bachelors degree masters degree and doctorate each in psychology and each from the University of Pennsylvania. 

Our third witness will be introduced by the gentle lady from 

Florida, Ms. Corrine Brown. 

Ms. BROWN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you for holding the important hearing today at the request of the Florida delegation. It is a pleasure for me to introduce Florida State Representative Audrey Gibson from my home State of Jacksonville, Florida. 

She is a native of Jacksonville, north side, she attended the local 

school in Jacksonville and graduated from Florida State University 

with a bachelors degree in criminology. She is the proud mother of 

an adult daughter and two sons. During her career, Representative 

Gibson has worked as a congressional district administrator and as 

9

a business community liaison. Representative Gibson sits on numerous Committees and is affiliated with many worthy causes. In 

her current capacity as State representative of District 15, she is 

committed to fighting for her constituents as well as all people of 

the State of Florida. She is also the recipient of many awards and 

recognition, including the Girl Scouts of Gateway Council, in 2006, 

Women of Distinction award, and most important, 2006, Legislator 

of the Year award from the North Side Florida Association of Realtors. It is my honor to introduce Ms. Gibson who I have known all 

her life. 

Mr. SCOTT. Thank you. Thank you, Representative Brown. All of 

the witnesses have submitted statements, and each of the witnesses’ complete written statements will be made as a part of the 

record. But I would ask each of the witnesses to summarize your 

testimony in 5 minutes or less. And to help you stay within that 

time, there is a lighting device on the table. When you have 1 

minute left, the light will go from green to yellow, and then finally 

to red when the 5 minutes are up. We will now hear from our first 

witness who I have known for a long time, Ms. Nweze. 

TESTIMONY OF ADORA OBI NWEZE, PRESIDENT,

FLORIDA NAACP, MIAMI, FL 

Ms. NWEZE. Good evening, Mr. Chairman, Members of the Subcommittee, and to the distinguished Congressman Conyers and distinguished guests. 

My name is Adora Obi Nweze, and it is my honor to be here 

today in the capacity as president of the Florida State Conference, 

NAACP. With more than 50 NAACP units in the State of Florida, 

we are proud to represent and pursue the civil rights interests of 

all Floridians of color throughout the State. I would like to take 

this opportunity to thank Congressman Alcee Hastings, Congresswoman Corrine Brown and Congressman Kendrick Meek for their 

leadership in pursuing this matter and bringing it to the attention 

of the Subcommittee. 

In addition to serving as president of the Florida State Conference since 2000, I am currently on the NAACP National Board 

of Directors and have served as a branch president in Miami and 

Opa-Locka for 13 years. Mr. Chairman, Members of the Subcommittee, I was born and reared in the Miami area, and I am a 

Florida girl from my heart, and I must tell you that in all my years 

of community activism in Miami and throughout the State, that the 

mistreatment of African American youth by the State of Florida is 

perhaps the one issue that has raised the most concern, the most 

anxiety and the most outrage among African Americans throughout 

the State. 

Black Floridians are outraged that the State continues to neglect, 

harm and even kill our youth and to appear to get away with it. 

I am therefore here today to ask you to use your oversight powers 

to urge the United States Department of Justice to launch a thorough investigation of the State of Florida’s Juvenile Justice System. It is incumbent upon the Federal Government to ensure that 

the rights of Florida’s children are protected. And from our point 

of view, it does not appear they are. 

10

According to the latest data, while just over 21 percent of Florida’s children are African American, more than 42 percent of the 

children who are involved in the Florida Department of Juvenile 

Justice in fiscal year 2006 were Black. Similarly, while just over 

32 percent of all of Florida’s children are racial ethnic minorities, 

more than 55 percent of those involved in DJJ in 2006 were children of color. This disparate amount means that the NAACP and 

all Floridians concerned about the civil rights of our children is disproportionately concerned about how our younger citizens are 

treated by the Florida DJJ. 

Every day it seems the Florida NAACP unit receives a complaint 

about a child in Florida’s Juvenile Justice System who is being 

abused, harmed or neglected. Perhaps the best known case of the 

mistreatment of our youth in recent years is the case of Martin Lee 

Anderson. In 2006, Martin was a 14-year-old. Of course, you have 

gone over that and you know that story. The ending of that story, 

however, is that there is now an investigation by the Federal division. We hope that that will be coming to some resolution, that 

would be responsive to the issue. At first, the official State autopsy 

determined Martin had died as a result of complications from sickle 

cell anemia. However, a second autopsy done at the request of Martin’s family in conjunction with the NAACP found that Martin had 

died of suffocation due to the action of the guards. 

What made Martin’s death unique is not that he died at the 

hands of State officials while in their custody but that his death 

was videotaped, which enabled the entire world to witness the 

beating, torture and eventual killing of a 14-year-old boy. For your 

information, the video can be seen at the NAACP Web site at 

www.naacp.org. 

I would like to take and say at this point that the U.S. Department of Justice through Mr. Thomas L. Battles, a regional director 

of DOJ’s Community Relations Service, has provided the NAACP 

with invaluable assistance throughout the Martin Lee Anderson 

case, specifically Mr. Battles and his office provided vital technical 

assistance to us as he planned marches, protests and town hall 

meetings. 

And finally, as you know, the result is what it was: The legislature in April of 2006 passed the Martin Lee Anderson Act closing 

the State’s five juvenile boot camps. The legislation was signed into 

law by then Governor Jeb Bush on July 1, 2006. I would hasten 

to say, however, that this legislation only affected the State-run juvenile boot camps. What we must understand is that privately run 

State-funded juvenile detention facilities are still plagued by abuse 

and neglect. And the people who are suffering the most are our 

children. This was too late for Martin; as well as for Willie Durden, 

who died at age 17 at Cyprus Creek Juvenile Correction Center; 

Omar Paisley, who died at age 17 at the Miami-Dade Regional Juvenile Detention Center; Daniel Matthews, who died at age 17 at 

Pinellas Regional Juvenile Detention Center; Brian Farmer, who 

died at age 17 at the Okeechobee Officer Correctional Center; 

Shawn Smith, who died at age 13 at the Volusia Regional Detention Center; and Michael Wiltise who died at age 12 at camp EKel-ETU in Marion County, Florida. All of these young men, these 

children, died between 2000 and 2006 while in the custodial care 

11

of the State of Florida. It is important to me that we state the 

names of each of these young people for the record as their deaths 

are quickly becoming forgotten, just like them. The juvenile justice 

system in Florida has the unfortunate habit of dehumanizing the 

children who were sent there just when they need to be shown 

care, love and attention and taught that they are worth something. 

And so I thank you, Mr. Chair, Members of the Subcommittee, 

the others who have worked so hard to try to make sense not only 

of Martin’s death as well as other children who have died in custody. As president of the Florida NAACP as well as an educated 

mother and grandmother, I am committed to working with you to 

ensure that every American youth, regardless of their race, is given 

a decent chance. Thank you again. I will be happy to answer any 

questions. 

[The prepared statement of Ms. Nweze follows:]

12

PREPARED STATEMENT OF ADORA OBI NWEZE


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Mr. SCOTT. Thank you. 

Our normal procedure is to hear from all witnesses before we respond to questions, but because we are 2 hours late and Ms. Nweze 

has to leave, we will go out of order. And if people have specific 

questions for her, we will entertain those at this time. 

And I just have one. The Florida NAACP has received many complaints for the juvenile system. Is that from boot camps only or 

from other parts of the juvenile system? 

Ms. NWEZE. It is including all of the facilities, not only boot 

camps but certainly the detention centers, some who—residential 

as well as day programs. 

Mr. SCOTT. Thank you. 

Mr. Gohmert. 

Mr. GOHMERT. Well, thank you. And it is an honor to have someone who has dedicated their life to helping others so much as you 

have. 

I was a little concerned when I—in your statement earlier, you 

said you were concerned about the children of color and the mistreatment of African American youth. So I was relieved to hear at 

the end when you said you were concerned about every American 

youth, regardless of race. And we appreciate—obviously your life 

speaks volumes about what you have done to try to help others. 

And we may disagree about ways to try to help them. But clearly 

you have a heart for helping others. And I thank you for being 

here. 

Mr. SCOTT. Thank you. Mr. Conyers. 

Mr. CONYERS. Thank you very much. 

Do we need boot camps? 

Ms. NWEZE. Well, research has shown that they don’t work. They 

really don’t work as they are presently structured. 

Mr. CONYERS. Because we have got enough wrong with the criminal justice system and youth, and the juvenile system tacked on becomes another huge part of the problem. 

Ms. NWEZE. Right. 

Mr. CONYERS. And of course, it is all people involved, but it is 

Black people mostly the victims. Now, let’s not fly out of here 

thinking that we don’t know that. 

Ms. NWEZE. Right. 

Mr. CONYERS. And so the question for me—and then this Committee has, goodness knows, a big job. But this is a small, tiny part 

of our examination of the criminal justice system. 

I want to hear the case for boot camps. And I am trying to be 

neutral about it, but I haven’t been around here this long being 

neutral. It comes out of a misguided theory. And I don’t expect you 

to be able to go into this. But I want everybody to follow this with 

me, and that is why we are on television——

Mr. SCOTT. I think our next witness will have a lot to say about 

boot camps. 

Mr. CONYERS. We want to get down—this is not a meeting to find 

out how to improve boot camps. I mean, do they have a worthwhile 

purpose or not? And to me, that is the jumping-off point. And so 

I join in with the commendations of the Ranking Member of the 

Committee to thank you for your testimony. 

Ms. NWEZE. Thank you. 

16

Mr. SCOTT. The gentleman from North Carolina. 

Mr. COBLE. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I will be very brief. I 

want to put a question to the witness. 

Good to have you all with us, by the way. 

If she doesn’t know the answer, maybe I will submit the question 

to the Chair. Boot camps are operational in how many States? Does 

anyone know that? 

Mr. SCOTT. Approximately 20 right now. 

Mr. COBLE. Twenty? 

Mr. SCOTT. I think. 

Mr. COBLE. And Ms. Nweze, I will assume logistically the way 

it works, a person is prosecuted and convicted, and then, at that 

point, the court of jurisdiction assigns the offender or the defendant 

to a boot camp? Is that the way it goes logistically in Florida? 

Ms. NWEZE. I am sorry. I didn’t understand your question. I 

heard you. But you need to repeat it so I am sure. 

Mr. COBLE. I said logistically a juvenile is prosecuted and convicted. And upon his conviction, I presume the court of jurisdiction 

would then assign the defendant or the convicted defendant to an 

appropriate boot camp. Is that the way it works? 

Ms. NWEZE. Generally, yes. 

Mr. COBLE. Okay. I have no further questions. 

Mr. SCOTT. Thank you, Ms. Nweze, for your testimony and for 

your responses. I regret that we had to—we were so late getting 

started because of votes on the floor. But I appreciate your work 

on this issue, on the State NAACP and on the national board. I 

have seen you at many conventions, and it is good to see you today. 

Ms. NWEZE. Yes, sir. Thank you, sir. 

Mr. SCOTT. Thank you. 

Professor MacKenzie. 

TESTIMONY OF DORIS MacKENZIE, PROFESSOR,

UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND, COLLEGE PARK, MD 

Ms. MACKENZIE. I am honored to be here. I thank the Committee, Subcommittee for inviting me. 

I began studying correctional boot camps in 1987. And when I 

talk about correctional boot camps, I am including both camps for 

both juveniles and adults. At that time, I was awarded a grant 

from the National Institute of Justice, and I have continued to 

study them since that time. Most recently, the University of Maryland was awarded a grant, and I studied the correctional boot camp 

for adults at Maryland. I have then had the opportunity to visit a 

large number of these camps to observe activities; to consult with 

staff, administrators and juveniles; review evaluations; collect data. 

I have visited programs for males and females; for juveniles and 

adults; and in Federal, State and local jurisdictions. 

Beginning my research on the boot camps, I began by asking people what they expected to be accomplished by the boot camps. They 

had many goals. But the primary goal was always—almost always—recidivism. So I began studying the recidivism and most recently have done a meta-analysis, examining all the studies that 

we could identify that have examined the outcome of recidivism of 

boot camps. They compared people that went to the boot camps, juveniles and adults, to people that had some other sentence or spent 

17

time in a facility or in the community. This was a large number 

of juveniles and adults that were included in these studies. We only 

used studies that were considered to be adequate scientifically. So 

the research designed was strong. If the major goal of boot camps 

is to reduce recidivism, there is little reason to continue these programs. They do not reduce recidivism. This has been the continual 

result that I found from my earliest studies to this examination of 

all the studies that I could find in a meta-analysis. There is no evidence that they successfully reduced recidivism. 

People do have other goals of the programs though. And so I 

have also tried to examine the other goals. One of them was to reduce prison crowding. People expected the programs to reduce prison crowding, partly because they would reduce recidivism, which of 

course they don’t, but also by releasing the offenders and 

delinquents early if they took part in this rigorous boot camp program. The trouble is that many of the judges decide to send juveniles and adults to the boot camp instead of giving them an alternative community treatment. So instead of sending them to probation, they end up putting them into a prison, incarcerating them 

in the boot camps or net widening. 

The other area that we studied in the boot camps was to look at 

the environment of the boot camps. We did find some positive results from the boot camps. If we look at the environments, the juveniles and staff evaluated the program as more positive, the boot 

camp programs. The trouble is, we were comparing them to the traditional facilities of the juveniles where there are large facilities, 

not small—not small programs, as they had for the boot camps. 

You also must remember, when we study in our lab in the boot 

camps, we are allowed in those that are probably less apt to prove 

to be abusive and have better trained staff. 

I have just recently done a review of what works in corrections, 

looking at a large number of correctional programs, including the 

boot camps. I identified 284 studies that have adequate research 

designs. And that is very important because much research in corrections is very poorly done. I can conclude that programs that are 

based on control, punishment, strict rules, confrontations similar to 

boot camps or scared straight programs are not effective. 

However, we do have programs that are effective. These are the 

programs that we have referred to as rehabilitation, education, 

drug court, drug treatment, cognitive skills programs. We do have 

programs that reduce recidivism. But boot camps are not something that reduces recidivism. 

For years I have said we should consider boot camps because we 

could put therapy within the camps. But looking at the recent 

number of deaths and injuries in these camps, I have changed my 

mind, and I no longer support—I think it is too dangerous to continue with the boot camps. We don’t have a justification. 

[The prepared statement of Ms. MacKenzie follows:]

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PREPARED STATEMENT OF DORIS MACKENZIE


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Mr. SCOTT. Thank you very much, Professor MacKenzie. 

Representative Gibson. 

TESTIMONY OF AUDREY GIBSON, STATE REPRESENTATIVE OF 

FLORIDA, DISTRICT 15, JACKSONVILLE, FL 

Ms. GIBSON. Thank you, Mr. Chair, and Members of the Committee. And certainly I want to thank my congresswoman for inviting me today. 

I want to cover a couple of points that I kind of took out of my 

testimony. First and foremost, I want to make sure that it is 

known that I don’t believe in coddling criminals. I do believe in 

personal responsibility, but I believe that it has to be taught. And 

I don’t think that boot camps in any way, shape or form teach that 

to our young people. 

I also think that the best opportunity we have to reduce our increase in our corrections systems throughout the United States is 

by rehabilitating juveniles. I think that we all know that the African-American population is over represented in our corrections system for adults as well as juveniles. And so therein lies, I think, the 

comments that there is great concern for African American children 

while there is concern for all children. 

I don’t think that there is enough mental health programming 

within the confines of a boot camp. And largely, most of these children that go into boot camps are poor children; their health has not 

been monitored over the years; and so they go into a program that 

primarily focuses on rigorous physical activity. 

The other issue has to do with it being run by sheriffs’ offices, 

or as was stated earlier, it is a State-run type of program, which 

doesn’t in my mind mean that we shouldn’t have national outcry, 

but we certainly should have standards or should have had, because I certainly don’t believe or support the continuation of boot 

camps. But there has to be—or there should have been, I am sorry, 

a standard of training within the facilities so that we did not have 

the deaths that we have had. And that not only includes the medical component, which has been insufficient, but also the personnel 

who are used to handling adults and not children. And certainly 

that is what those young people are; they are developing children. 

I think it is far better or we are far better served if we do have 

programs like multisystemic therapy, which we utilize in Florida. 

And I think they also utilize it in Mississippi, if I am not mistaken. 

Functional family therapy, because taking a juvenile into a setting 

that doesn’t include making sure that the family is treated, if you 

will, it doesn’t complete the cycle. And so in order to recognize reduced recidivism rates, then we need to certainly include the family and, as was mentioned earlier, make sure that there is an educational component; there is an employment training component. 

Because we are trying to prepare the person—this young person 

who has gotten into trouble—not to go into the correctional system. 

We are trying to prepare that person to come back and be productive in the community. And boot camps certainly do not do that. 

In terms of the dollars being spent being State dollars, if you will, 

I wrote a note that certainly there are Federal dollars that fund juvenile justice programs. And those dollars that are State dollars 

may be used as a match to draw down those dollars from the Fed. 

34

And in looking at whether or not someone wants to continue boot 

camps or not, recognize the national importance of this issue, certainly we shouldn’t be using State dollars as match dollars to draw 

down Federal dollars if any of the State dollars are going to be 

used for boot camps as we continue on. Let’s see. 

As I said before, as my time runs out, I think we are far better 

served, and we have far more statistics that show prevention programs work, therapy programs work, wilderness programs even, 

like Outward Bound, where a young person can find out where 

their strengths and talents lie and then draw on those to take 

them through life. We have a high murder rate going on right now 

in Jacksonville. And I think it certainly involves a lot of our young 

people. I think adults as well as children could certainly benefit 

from the inclusion of conflict resolution in any program. And with 

that, I thank you very much. 

[The prepared statement of Ms. Gibson follows:]

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PREPARED STATEMENT OF AUDREY GIBSON


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Mr. SCOTT. Thank you, Representative Gibson. 

Now we will have rounds of questions from Members. We will 

limit ourselves to the 5 minutes. And I will recognize myself first. 

Professor MacKenzie, just on the question of recidivism, you indicated on several occasions that there is no reduction in recidivism 

at boot camps compared to other facilities. You also have suggested 

that boot camps, like their sister programs at military schools, are 

not conducive to assisting teens to make and keep long-term 

change. Is that accurate? And if so, could you expand on that? 

Ms. MACKENZIE. That is accurate for the boot camps, the adjudicated delinquents and offenders, there is no evidence—the overall 

evidence is that they do not reduce recidivism. They don’t change 

the delinquents so that they don’t continue in criminal activity. 

Mr. SCOTT. In terms of safety, did you study the safety of the 

boot camps? 

Ms. MACKENZIE. We studied the perceived safety of the boot 

camps from the perspective of juveniles in the camps and staff. And 

we compared that to traditional facilities and safety. The juveniles 

in the boot camps felt they were safer in most areas. I think that 

reflects the fact that the strict rules keep them from being hurt by 

other juveniles in the facility. They were, however, more afraid of 

staff. So there was some fear of staff. 

Mr. SCOTT. Well, Ms. Gibson, many children have died in boot 

camps. Is there a difference in the death rate at boot camps as opposed to other facilities? 

Ms. MACKENZIE. That is really where we need some research. We 

do not have that research. The other thing is, we don’t really have 

a very good handle on how many boot camps are still there because 

there are State boot camps, but there are also many that are run 

by local jurisdictions. So we need to know where they are and then 

compare the injury and death rates in the camps to the other facilities where these young people would be. 

Mr. SCOTT. You mentioned local, local government-run. What 

about privately run? 

Ms. MACKENZIE. And there are also privately run, usually contracted with government. 

Mr. SCOTT. And we don’t know whether or not there is a difference in private or local-run facilities in terms of safety? 

Ms. MACKENZIE. As far as their reported safety, we did not find 

any differences between the juvenile programs that were run by 

public or private, not for profit. 

Mr. SCOTT. And if there is no difference in recidivism, are the 

boot camps cheaper than the alternatives? 

Ms. MACKENZIE. The boot camps are only cheaper if the people 

are released after serving a shorter period of time. And the concern 

here is net widening. Many of the judges make the decision to send 

someone into the boot camp instead of an alternative, like probation. That makes it much more expensive. So some State systems 

for adults have used it to reduce their prison population. New York 

State in particular because of the Rockefeller drug laws has used 

their boot camp for adults to release people earlier. They reported 

some savings. But they have an enormous number of people that 

they put through the boot camp in a year, 5,000. In comparison, 

38

the small programs run for juveniles are probably not saving any 

money. 

Mr. SCOTT. Thank you. 

Representative Gibson, you serve on the Juvenile Justice Committee. Is that a subcommittee in the Statehouse? 

Ms. GIBSON. Yes. 

Mr. SCOTT. You have gotten rid of all of the State-run boot 

camps. What happens to children now that would have been sentenced to a boot camp? 

Ms. GIBSON. They are either house arrested—because boot camps 

in Florida were for nonviolent offenders. And so they are either 

house arrested or probation, community probation or detention centers. 

Mr. SCOTT. Has anyone ascertained whether or not there has 

been more or less crime as a result of the closing of the State-run 

boot camps? 

Ms. GIBSON. Not that I am aware of. 

Mr. SCOTT. What can be done to make these boot camp—if we 

are not having boot camps, what can be made to deal with the safety of the children? Professor MacKenzie, we are still having some 

boot camps. Is there anything that can be done to enhance the safety? 

Ms. MACKENZIE. Have strict requirements about the need for 

training the staff would be one of the first things. I think that, 

from my experience, many of the staff were not well trained to 

identify stress and physical and mental stress that the juveniles 

face in these boot camps. And I am very worried about how long 

the staff has training. I mean, it is very short periods of time. They 

are often given—they participate in some kind of training activity. 

And that just won’t give them what they need. 

Mr. SCOTT. Thank you. My time has expired. 

Judge Gohmert. 

Mr. GOHMERT. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

And let me just mention, our Chair of the Committee has 

stepped out. But he was going to address, he had indicated he 

wanted to hear evidence on both sides. And I can tell you, Mr. 

Chairman, we had tried to get some of the witnesses from programs that I am aware of in Texas that have had a good deal of 

success. And since we were not able to offer their airfare or travel 

expenses to get here, they didn’t have the wherewithal to do so. 

They operate on tight budgets and just could not make the transition; plus they have small staffs, and it is difficult when you take 

somebody out for 2 days and it is not completely job related to 

what they are doing. But there is evidence out there, and I hope 

we will have a chance to get some of that additional evidence before the Committee. 

Dr. MacKenzie, you made the statement that—and in your written statement, it is in all capitalized letters, boot camps, ‘‘do not 

reduce recidivism,’’ and you went a step further here. And in your 

written statement, you said, ‘‘I believe the research is clear on 

this.’’ you went a step further than that, and always understand 

as I do that testifying falsely here is a crime. And I guess the old 

judge comes out when somebody makes a statement that is so bold. 

You went beyond that. You said, ‘‘There is no evidence they reduce 

39

recidivism.’’ so since I am familiar with some places where they 

have reduced recidivism, let me just ask you, are you not aware of 

one single boot camp anywhere in the Nation that has actually reduced recidivism? 

Ms. MACKENZIE. I am aware of some boot camp studies that 

have shown a reduction in recidivism. 

Mr. GOHMERT. I am talking about one boot camp anywhere in 

the country that itself reduced recidivism amongst those who have 

come through that boot camp. 

Ms. MACKENZIE. The studies study a particular boot camp. So, 

yes, I would know—I do know of—offhand, I can’t tell you exactly 

which States. But I can tell you, yes, there were some. And in the 

testimony, I reported that some did have lower recidivism from——

Mr. GOHMERT. And it seems, and you pointed this out in the 

study, it seems like—in those that have had some success, usually 

they incorporate more than just a physical regimen. They use the 

education and training, and the life skills has not always been terribly helpful, but there is a dimension of that that can be. And I 

wanted to be sure if you were aware of those or not. But you also 

said you were allowed in boot camps that were less apt to be abusive. Did you make attempts to be in boot camps you knew were 

more abusive? 

Ms. MACKENZIE. We attempted to go into every juvenile boot 

camp that was in existence when we started the study of the environments of juvenile boot camps. 

Mr. GOHMERT. Is that just in Florida or all across the country? 

Ms. MACKENZIE. Across the country. 

Mr. GOHMERT. That is a lot of boot camps. You made an inquiry——

Ms. MACKENZIE. I gave the numbers in here. It was about 48 or 

49 boot camps at that point that we could identify. 

Mr. GOHMERT. Okay. Well, then, I notice the most recent study 

that you cited I think was 2001. Have you reviewed any study 

since then that are being cited? 

Ms. MACKENZIE. Reviewed studies for the recidivism or——

Mr. GOHMERT. Well, the studies that were cited had the most recent ones. There were a couple of them I think that were 2001. 

Those were the studies that were cited as footnotes to your statement. Did you have any other opinion to your statement of other 

studies? 

Ms. MACKENZIE. The studies in the meta-analysis that we conducted, we conducted the meta-analysis 2 years ago. That is referenced on——

Mr. GOHMERT. Okay. My time is—okay. Thank you. 

But I do want to ask Representative Gibson—and thank you for 

coming. I know it is a hardship for anybody that comes up here 

and especially when you sit around like this for us. But I was concerned that it appears that Florida legislature has taken the step—

and you have made indications of things that concerned you that, 

you know, the abuses obviously should require some action. But I 

just want to ask you, is the Florida legislature incapable of addressing boot camp problems unless the Federal Government tells 

you what and how to do? 

40

Ms. GIBSON. Thank you for your question. I believe that what 

Florida did was change from a boot camp model to something 

called star academies. However, we had no takers with the change 

in the structure even though the dollar amount was there. And of 

course, it is a shared program between usually a sheriff’s department and the State. And the reason we had no takers is because 

of the training. There is a different kind of training required to be 

a sheriff as it is to be over juveniles. There are different takedown 

methods taught and other kinds of training that individuals need 

to have when they work with juveniles. So we had no takers for 

the program. 

Mr. GOHMERT. Okay. Thank you. But you feel like Florida could 

handle and legislate requirements for its own boot camps is really—or did you need the Federal Government to tell you how to do 

that? 

Ms. GIBSON. Let me go back to what I believe I said in my initial 

comments, and if I didn’t, I certainly meant to; that I believe that 

the issue of juvenile justice is a national issue. Children are children from State to State. And there needs to be standards put in 

place nationally so we don’t have these kinds of issues. And I believe the Federal is national, and I believe there needs to be involvement. And we wouldn’t be where we are today, I don’t think, 

if we had national standards to deal with our juvenile criminals. 

Mr. GOHMERT. And if we don’t pass national standards, Florida, 

you are saying, would not be able to adequately take care of the 

boot camp issue within its own State? 

Ms. GIBSON. Florida won’t have any boot camps, first of all. 

Mr. GOHMERT. Okay. Thank you. 

Mr. SCOTT. Thank you. The gentleman’s time has expired. I believe the gentle lady from Texas came in next. 

The gentle lady from Texas is recognized. 

Ms. JACKSON LEE. I thank the distinguished Chairman. You 

know, this is the kind of hearing I am just grateful that, as we 

have moved to the new 110th Congress and we are working with 

our colleagues, friends on the other side of the aisle, that we have 

been able to initiate questions like this. And I want to put firmly 

on the record my appreciation to Chairman Scott for giving us a 

very broad road map. I chair the Congressional Children’s Caucus, 

and it is holistic in its approach entering programs, health issues, 

such as obesity, gun violence over the years that has been in place 

and children’s exploitation. And so we look at things in a broad 

manner, and certainly we recognize that children have to be disciplined; they have to be rehabilitated. And when the boot camp 

first started maybe a decade ago, people were excited. CNN was 

covering it. It looked like it would be bite-your-tongue fun, a good 

way to discipline children. We didn’t know that it was going to become a death trap. Or those who had the good intentions didn’t 

know that, in places around the country, it would result in being 

a death trap for children. 

Now, I have just come off of the floor discussing the propensity 

and epidemic of youth violence. One on one, one of the most conspicuous examples, of course, was the four youngsters who broke 

into the home of Sean Taylor which resulted in his death. And I 

say that to recognize that we have a dual problem of violence perVerDate 0ct 09 2002 12:54 Nov 08, 2008 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00044 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6601 H:\WORK\CRIME\121307\39706.000 HJUD1 PsN: 39706
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petrated by youngsters, and then, of course, how do you save their 

lives? How do you intervene? And how do you work with respect 

to intervention? 

But I would like to ask Representative Gibson—and I thank you 

for your leadership, coming from Florida. I am not sure if you are 

from the area—forgive me for missing your testimony. I was on the 

floor. I only know the story of the youngster who was flat on his 

back and big hurly, burly people stepping on him. Is this Mr. Anderson? Is that the young man? 

Ms. GIBSON. Yes. 

Ms. JACKSON LEE. Help me understand why we should be questioning boot camps across the country and why it poses a severe 

problem, more so than it solves problems of youth crime, which I 

assume this young man was in because of some incident, criminal 

incident. And I assume maybe you are from this area. As I said, 

forgive me. I came in, and I am looking at some notes. But help 

us understand—I understand Florida has eliminated the boot 

camps? 

Ms. GIBSON. Yes. 

Ms. JACKSON LEE. By State action. Is it all gone? Or they are in 

the process of being eliminated? 

Ms. GIBSON. No, following this Martin Lee Anderson incident, actually the boot camps were closed, and the children were moved. 

Ms. JACKSON LEE. What year was that? 

Ms. GIBSON. 2004 I think. 

Ms. JACKSON LEE. Four. That is okay. Why don’t I just let you 

answer the question and then, doctor, would you follow up—Professor, would you follow up and tell us, if we wanted to overhaul 

this concept of boot camps and we wanted to find a fix and we are 

looking at a number of legislative initiatives, more intervention, 

what—eliminate it totally? Or is there another model that could be 

used? 

Representative Gibson, just tell us about the situation in Florida. 

Ms. GIBSON. Well—and thank you. I think the video speaks for 

itself and speaks very loudly to the fact that folks obviously didn’t 

know how to handle this young man. And there was a lack of training. There was a lack of consideration for his physical ability for 

him to do whatever it was that they wanted him to do. 

Ms. JACKSON LEE. His size compared to their size. 

Ms. GIBSON. Absolutely. 

And the fact that they had stuffed ammonia tablets up his nose 

is very egregious to me and I don’t see how anyone looking at that 

and knowing what happened, that they could even think that the 

boot camp model works. 

The other part of that, I think I put in my testimony, is that as 

far as I know, boot camps are military in nature, designed to prepare people to go to war. We are not preparing our children to go 

to war. We are preparing them to come out and be productive citizens. And I don’t think that the boot camps do that. Nor are they 

inclusive, as I said before—I think you were right—of deep therapy, mental health issues about—with our young folks today, we 

are finding that not only in Florida, but I believe across the United 

States that there are a myriad of mental health issues that certainly aren’t addressed in a short-term boot camp. And the recidiVerDate 0ct 09 2002 12:54 Nov 08, 2008 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00045 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6601 H:\WORK\CRIME\121307\39706.000 HJUD1 PsN: 39706
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vism rate that I think we are after with our taxpayer dollars is not 

recognized. And the aftercare programs that some of the boot 

camps have had, the programs are very fragmented, and so there 

is no help actually for the child or the family. 

Ms. JACKSON LEE. Quickly, Professor, do you have an alternative 

model, quickly? 

Ms. MACKENZIE. The alternative would be to really use the programs that we know are effective, the treatment programs that include education, focus on drug use and drug education and drug 

problems like drug courts. Multisystemic therapy is another one 

that looks very promising. We have programs that—cognitive skills 

would be another one. We have programs that are effective. We 

might want to try, given that the environments of boot camps—the 

staff and juveniles did say positive things about them—we might 

want to try small structured programs without the military basic 

training model. 

Ms. JACKSON LEE. And the roughness that ensues? 

Ms. MACKENZIE. The roughness. 

Ms. JACKSON LEE. Let me thank you and I yield back. I thank 

the Chairman very much. 

Mr. SCOTT. Thank you. The gentleman from Georgia, Mr. Johnson. 

Mr. JOHNSON. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Why is it that roughness would not work in terms of discipline, 

in terms of physical requirements? In other words, do the pushups, 

do the sit-ups, do the chin-ups, do the laps as part of the disciplinary process, as part of the teaching of respect of authority that 

sometimes many young men and women are missing and which 

can contribute to them being thrust into the juvenile justice system 

for a rebellious young person who has had no disciplinary guidance, 

who may not have achieved on a physical level, may never have 

done a pushup or a sit-up and who basically lacks respect for authority, couldn’t boot camp, if properly administered and if supplemented with various psychological training methods and that kind 

of thing, couldn’t it be something that could be positive, or is it—

and I meant this question for both of you—or is it just the whole 

boot camp model needs to be just done away with because it has 

no merit whatsoever? Is that what I hear you all saying? 

And I am sorry that I was not here at the beginning of your testimony. So I didn’t hear. And I am kind of asking this question out 

of some skepticism of tidbits of what I have heard just sitting here 

so far, and also probably a lack of knowledge about how to positively impact juveniles who have gone astray. 

So I will listen to your responses. Spare the rod, spoil the child. 

You know, those kinds of things that we have heard. You know, 

talk to me. 

Ms. GIBSON. Let me start by saying this. I am the mother of two 

sons that I raised by myself. Both of them have graduated from college and I didn’t spare the rod nor the mouth. In terms of physical 

activity as a way of disciplining young people, I don’t think that it 

should be used that way. 

Mr. JOHNSON. It may not be just to discipline them, it may be 

to give them some discipline and also give them a means of achieving something and becoming more physical, helping with the psyVerDate 0ct 09 2002 12:54 Nov 08, 2008 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00046 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6601 H:\WORK\CRIME\121307\39706.000 HJUD1 PsN: 39706
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chosomatic issues. In other words I can achieve physically, I am 

strong, you know, I can commit myself to more positive pursuits as 

opposed to what got me in trouble in the first place; I can become 

Michael Jordan or somebody because I can achieve physically. 

Ms. GIBSON. I made references earlier before you came to successes of wilderness-type programs and Outward Bound programs, 

and there is another program in Florida called About Face that is 

run by our National Guard. And these programs do have a physical 

component, rope climbing and things of that nature. 

But they also focus on team building and trust, in addition to the 

physical component, which is not present in a boot camp. If you get 

up at 0-dark-30, I call it, and are immediately subjected to running 

the track in the heat or just pushups, that to me does not instill 

discipline and doesn’t allow a child to totally tap into some talents 

they may find in the rope climbing or in the canoeing or being out 

in the wilderness communing with nature, if you will. 

Mr. JOHNSON. Nothing positive about it at all? Getting up early 

in the morning, being required to do some laps? 

Ms. MACKENZIE. As I said before, there does appear to be some 

positive attitudes in the boot camp toward the staff and the staff 

toward the juveniles. So there is something positive. My worry is 

with these injuries and deaths in the camp that the military—putting that basic training model in isn’t effective. My research would 

say that it doesn’t have an influence on later criminal activities. It 

is not criminogenic learning to change physically, it isn’t really 

going to change you to keep you away from a life of crime. You may 

need consequences for your actions and that may be beneficial. But 

we could do many of these things in a different model of a juvenile 

facility, not using the basic training military model. 

Mr. SCOTT. Thank you very much. 

Let me just follow up with one quick question. The Ranking 

Member, Judge Gohmert, mentioned some of the aspects of programs that seemed to work; that is, when you have a boot camp 

with just the physical activities, it doesn’t seem to work, but when 

you add in education, some of the psychological services, mental 

health perhaps, when you have that, particularly the education, 

that it makes a positive difference. That is also what I have been 

led to believe. Is that what research shows? 

Ms. MACKENZIE. The research in that area is very limited. We 

don’t have enough information and the programs don’t appear to be 

very extensive in the boot camps. So the research—I would not 

make a strong statement about whether the boot camps that now 

exist that have treatment and therapy within the camps have an 

impact on recidivism. It is questionable at this point, the results 

of the research. 

Mr. SCOTT. Thank you. Judge Gohmert, do you have any other 

questions? 

Mr. GOHMERT. Since we weren’t able to get witnesses, people 

that I talked to, if I could just mention a couple of things. For one 

thing, you know, like my friend Mr. Johnson mentioned, there are 

some youth who have a problem being that they have never had 

any self-discipline, they have never been taught any discipline. And 

in talking to parents and teachers of those who have had boot 

camps—and when I say boot camp, apparently there is a little 

44

miscommunication, because I consider a boot camp not just to have 

the physical component, but to have these other components where 

education is a part, and the day boot camps with which I am familiar had the officers of the boot camp available any time of the day 

on call. They would show up and take the child out of the classroom who was being disruptive and talk to them. And teachers tell 

me they could not believe the difference in a child who began to 

learn and start to reach their God-given potential. 

I have had parents—there was one mother who said she never 

could get her child to go to bed, and one night she got fed up and 

she called the sergeant major that ran the boot camps and said, 

‘‘My son won’t go to bed.’’ He said, ‘‘Put him on the line.’’ She put 

him on the line and he said, ‘‘Son, go to bed.’’ And the kid went 

to bed. 

And she said, ‘‘How did you do that?’’ he said, ‘‘Well, I don’t 

know. We need to work on this a little bit.’’

But we found that many times the parents needed some training 

as an additional component because we are talking about youth. 

And Representative Gibson, I think you alluded to another issue. 

When you are dealing with youth, training becomes all the more 

critical because—Dr. Mackenzie, you are dealing with—these are 

not hardened adults. These are still moldable children. But Representative Gibson, you mentioned the STAR program and I don’t 

know if it is the same thing, but that is what we were—the boot 

camps that I looked at in Texas back when I was on the juvenile 

board, they called themselves STAR programs and they had the additional components. But it just seemed like, Mr. Johnson—sometimes the discipline is needed in order to get their attention. And 

one problem we ran into—or I have heard from others—they would 

have kids get so motivated, turn their studies around, and then 

after graduating high school, want to join the military. And they 

would say, ‘‘Well, you have had these problems in your background, 

so we really don’t want you.’’ and I hate to see that happen when 

somebody has turned their lives around. 

But anyway, I just wanted to mention that for the record. I have 

heard some great stories of people turned around. But certainly the 

detriment of losing a precious child requires extra training, requires extra accountability and monitoring. And I appreciate the 

opportunity to mention these other aspects. 

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. SCOTT. Thank you. And I would like to thank our witnesses 

for their testimony today. Members may have additional questions 

to ask. They will be submitted to you in writing and we would ask 

you to forward your answers as promptly as possible so they can 

be made part of the record. 

And, without objection, the hearing record will remain open for 

1 week for the submission of additional materials, and I assume 

the gentleman from Texas may have additional statements. 

At this time, I would like to introduce for the record a statement 

from the Thayer Learning Center and one from Representative 

Hastings and Representative Corrine Brown. 

[The prepared statement of the Thayer Learning Center follows:]

45

[The prepared statement of Mr. Hastings of Florida follows:] 

[The prepared statement of Ms. Corrine Brown of Florida follows:] 

Mr. SCOTT. Is there any other business to come before the Subcommittee? Without objection, the Subcommittee stands adjourned. 

[Whereupon, at 3:45 p.m., the Subcommittee was adjourned.] 

47

A P P E N D I X 

MATERIAL SUBMITTED FOR THE HEARING RECORD

PREPARED STATEMENT OF THE HONORABLE SHEILA JACKSON LEE, A REPRESENTATIVE

IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF TEXAS, AND MEMBER, SUBCOMMITTEE ON CRIME, 

TERRORISM, AND HOMELAND SECURITY


Lee-1.eps
48


Lee-2.eps
49


Lee-3.eps
50


Lee-4.eps
51


Lee-5.eps
52


Lee-6.eps
53

f


Lee-7.eps
54


Thayer-1.eps
55

f


Thayer-2.eps
56

PREPARED STATEMENT OF THE HONORABLE ALCEE L. HASTINGS, A REPRESENTATIVE

IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF FLORIDA


ALH-1.eps
57

f


ALH-2.eps
58

PREPARED STATEMENT OF THE HONORABLE CORRINE BROWN, A REPRESENTATIVE IN

CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF FLORIDA


Brown-1.eps
59


Brown-2.eps
60


Brown-3.eps
61

Æ


Brown-4.eps