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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **U.S. DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY**

**+ + + + + MANUFACTURED HOUSING WORKING GROUP** 

**+ + + + + PUBLIC MEETING** 

**+ + + + + THURSDAY**  **OCTOBER 2, 2014**

**+ + + + +**

**The Public Meeting met in Room 6097, 950 L'Enfant Plaza, S.W., Washington, D.C., at**  **9:00 a.m., Eileen Hoffman and Javier Ramirez, Meeting Facilitators, presiding.**  **PRESENT EILEEN HOFFMAN, Federal Mediation and**  **Conciliation Service, Facilitator JAVIER RAMIREZ, Federal Mediation and**  **Conciliation Service, Facilitator TED BANTLE, Federal Mediation and**  **Conciliation Service KEITH DENNIS, National Rural Electric**  **Cooperative Association ISHBEL DICKENS, National Manufactured Home**  **Owners Association*** **SCOTT DRAKE, East Kentucky Power Cooperative** * **MARK EZZO, Clayton Homes, Inc.*** **JOSEPH HAGERMAN, U.S. Department of Energy RICHARD HANGER, Housing Technology and**  **Standards*** **BERT KESSLER, Palm Harbor Homes, Inc.*** **ERIC LACEY, Responsible Energy Codes Alliance** 

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### MICHAEL EMANUEL LEVY, Systems Building **Research Alliance*** **MICHAEL LUBLINER, Washington State University Extension Energy Program** * **ROBERT LUTER, Lippert Components, Inc.*** **RICHARD POTTS, Virginia Department of Housing and Community Development** * **ROBIN ROY, Natural Resource Defense Council MANUEL SANTANA, Cavco Industries** * **PETER SCHNEIDER, Efficiency Vermont*** **LOIS STARKEY, Manufactured Housing Institute DAVID TOMPOS, NTA, Inc.**  **LOWELL UNGAR, American Council for an Energy-Efficient Economy**  **MICHAEL WADE, Cavalier Home Builders*** **MARK WEISS, Manufactured Housing Association ALSO PRESENT**  **EDWARD BARBOUR, Navigant MICHAEL JENSEN, Office of General Council,**  **U.S. Department of Energy RICK MENDLEN, Department of Housing and**  **Urban and Urban Development KAVITA VAIDYANATHAN, Office of General**  **Counsel, Department of Energy MATTHEW WALKER, Navigant**  **MICHAEL ZIEMAN, RADCO**

***present via teleconference**

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **T-A-B-L-E O-F C-O-N-T-E-N-T-S**

**Welcome and Introductions. . . . . . . . . . . 4 Eileen Hoffman**  **Overview of Agenda . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 Javier Ramirez**  **Working Group Comments . . . . . . . . . . . .10**

**Discussion: Uo Values . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .63**  **Prescriptive numbers. . . . . . . . . . . . .90 Climate Zones . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 152** 

**Action Items . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Subcommittee Reports . . . . . . . . . . . . 271** 

**Recommendations for ASRAC. . . . . . . . . . 280**

**Logistics for Denver . . . . . . . . . . . . 288**

**Public Comment . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 297**

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S**  **2 (9:11 a.m.)**  **3 MS. HOFFMAN: Welcome to the second**  **4 day of our meeting, October 2nd, the**  **5 Manufactured Housing Working Group, part of**  **6 ASRAC's charter to deal with energy efficiency**  **7 standards.**  **8 We had a very long and productive**  **9 meeting yesterday. I'm Eileen Hoffman, one of**  **10 our co-facilitators. And we'll go around the**  **11 room in a moment and see who's here. We'll go**  **12 and I'll mention who's on the line.**  **13 And just before we start, I do want**  **14 to mention yesterday we had all 22 members of**  **15 the committee either here or virtually, and we**  **16 want to make sure also that everyone**  **17 participates.**  **18 So if you have a question or want to**  **19 make a comment, we will make sure that you get**  **20 your air time. This is your process and we**  **21 want you to be very much a part of it.**  **22 We're getting close to some** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 deadlines that are very important and we'll be**  **2 pushing a little, but we also want to make**  **3 sure that we hear from everyone.**  **4 Okay, so starting with Javier, we'll**  **5 go around the room.**  **6 MR. RAMIREZ: All right. So let me**  **7 just hit a couple little logistical things.**  **8 Folks that are on line, if you could stay**  **9 muted until you want to say something and then**  **10 you could hit the mute button. That way we**  **11 don't get any background noise.**  **12 MR. HAGERMAN: Particularly you.**  **13 MR. RAMIREZ: And then also just be**  **14 careful of the cords around the room. And**  **15 then Debbie, the administrative assistant**  **16 that's been great helping us with the room**  **17 here, has asked for all of you to drop your**  **18 business card into the basket there so that**  **19 way she could keep track of everyone that was**  **20 here today.**  **21 So I'm Javier Ramirez with Federal**  **22 Aviation.** 

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### 1 MR. ROY: Robin Roy, Natural **2 Resources Defense Council. 3 MR. TOMPOS: David Tompos, NTA.**  **4 MR. WEISS: Mark Weiss, Manufactured 5 Housing Association for Regulatory Reform.**  **6 MR. UNGAR: Lowell Ungar, American 7 Council for an Energy Efficient Economy.**  **8 MR. WALKER: Matthew Walker, 9 Navigant.**  **10 MS. STARKEY: Lois Starkey, the 11 Manufactured Housing Institute.**  **12 MR. LACEY: Eric Lacey, Responsible 13 Energy Codes Alliance.**  **14 MR. HAGERMAN: Joe Hagerman, DOE. 15 MS. VAIDYANATHAN: Kavita**  **16 Vaidyanathan, DOE General Counsel's Office. 17 MR. JENSEN: Michael Jensen, DOE**  **18 General Counsel. 19 MR. BARBOUR: Ed Barbour, Navigant.**  **20 MR. ZIEMAN: Mike Zieman with RADCO. 21 MS. HOFFMAN: All right, thank you.**  **22 And now I'm going to list the people that are**

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### 1 on the line. Ishbel Dickens, National **2 Manufactured Home Association; Scott Drake, 3 East Kentucky Power Cooperative; Mark Ezzo,**  **4 Clayton Homes; Richard Hanger, Housing 5 Technology Standards; Bert Kessler, Palm**  **6 Harbor Homes; Emanuel Levy, Systems Building 7 Research Alliance; Michael Lubliner,**  **8 Washington State University Extension Energy 9 Program; Rob Luter, Lippert Components;**  **10 Richard Potts, Virginia Department of Housing 11 and Community Development; Peter Schneider,**  **12 Efficiency Vermont; Michael Wade; and Amy 13 Bernard who is the proxy for Stacey Epperson.**  **14 Okay. 15 MR. RAMIREZ: All right, so let's do**  **16 a quick review of the agenda that we have for 17 today. So we'll start off with any working**  **18 group comments, and then we want to continue 19 the discussion on the Uo values.**  **20 I believe Matthew was busy yesterday 21 doing some homework, and so we're going to**  **22 take another look at that. And once we do**

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 that we want to see if we could actually get**  **2 consensus on what those values should be. And**  **3 then see if there's any additional action**  **4 items such as the compliance pass or anything**  **5 else that we could reach agreement on.**  **6 Climate zones, I would like to have**  **7 a little bit of discussion on that but I**  **8 understand that that's still tabled. But**  **9 there's some ideas I've been floating around**  **10 for ways to look at it and I'd like for you to**  **11 hear that.**  **12 After lunch we'll see if we still**  **13 need any additional time for action items.**  **14 And then subcommittee reports, if any. I'm**  **15 not sure if there any that we are going to**  **16 need, but it's there in case we do.**  **17 And then have a discussion on what**  **18 recommendations you would like to make to**  **19 ASRAC as far as keeping the group together for**  **20 the compliance issues or any of the**  **21 recommendations that we have for them.**  **22 Then discuss the logistics for** 

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### 1 Denver, and then public comment. Any **2 questions on the agenda? 3 We just had a couple of -- sorry,**  **4 yes, questions on the agenda? 5 MR. LEVY: Yes, it's Michael Levy.**  **6 Earlier, I requested that perhaps at about 11 7 o'clock to present a proposed modified map**  **8 with some Uo values reflecting the 9 conversation yesterday.**  **10 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. 11 MR. LEVY: Is that appropriate?**  **12 MR. HAGERMAN: I think it's great. 13 This is Joe Hagerman, Emanuel. I think it's**  **14 great and I think it fits nicely in the 11 15 o'clock climate zone table for industry**  **16 discussion conversation. So well timed. 17 MR. RAMIREZ: Great. And I haven't**  **18 had a chance to look at my email, so I will 19 make sure that during one of the breaks that**  **20 we get it so that the whole group could see 21 it.**  **22 MS. HOFFMAN: And we have two people**

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 who have joined us.**  **2 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes. Keith, do you**  **3 want to introduce yourself?**  **4 MR. DENNIS: Sure. Keith Dennis,**  **5 National Rural Electrical Cooperative**  **6 Association, and Rick.**  **7 MS. HOFFMAN: Rick, an observer?**  **8 MR. MENDLEN: Rick Mendlen, HUD.**  **9 MR. RAMIREZ: All right. Then, Joe?**  **10 MR. HAGERMAN: Since we're in**  **11 working group comment section, I just wanted**  **12 to touch on a little bit how we left off**  **13 yesterday. Matthew is about to explain the**  **14 difference in the Uo tables that we showed, up**  **15 on the screen.**  **16 You know, the DOE life cycle tool**  **17 and ten-year residual analysis had slightly**  **18 different Uo values than what was on, I**  **19 believe, Page 5 of the manual document, so**  **20 he'll talk about those differences.**  **21 After talking with Matthew, I think**  **22 we should revert to Emanuel's table because I** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 think they're more reflective of the costs**  **2 that were included, so we should, you know,**  **3 take that in consideration. But, you know,**  **4 that's my personal recommendation, but let's**  **5 hear from Matthew and Emanuel about that. But**  **6 I'm comfortable with that.**  **7 And then the second thing was, you**  **8 know, at lunch yesterday you asked me to check**  **9 with PNNL about the Manual J and Manual S.**  **10 And, you know, maybe we could tackle that**  **11 first or maybe we could tackle the Uo**  **12 discussion first. It's up to Javier.**  **13 But what PNNL told me was it would**  **14 not be, you know, Manual J applies to all**  **15 buildings and manufactured housings are**  **16 different.**  **17 The one thing that Manual J requires**  **18 is that you pick an orientation to do your**  **19 sizing, of course, and since when you build a**  **20 house you don't necessarily know how it's**  **21 going to be oriented on the site, you'd have**  **22 to assume a worst case situation, right.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 But it's all very practical. They**  **2 offer that they could, you know, incorporate**  **3 some of that in REScheck. REScheck currently**  **4 doesn't do a Manual J calculation when it does**  **5 the sizing. It does the UA, I think Eric**  **6 probably knows that. UA alternative.**  **7 But the results would be close to**  **8 the same, right? But they offered to make the**  **9 modifications in REScheck or make that**  **10 simplified tool for the industry. We just**  **11 need to, if the workgroup feels like that**  **12 would be helpful, if you all choose to vote on**  **13 the Manual J requirement in the IECC**  **14 discussion, we can easily in the**  **15 recommendations include that PNNL should**  **16 modify some tools.**  **17 Let's just keep in mind that**  **18 whatever the workgroup feels is necessary for**  **19 the industry to more easily meet this new**  **20 standard, if it's something, whether it's**  **21 education or other tools that you feel are**  **22 necessary or some research that needs to be** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 done or whatever, you know, whatever it is,**  **2 let's make that recommendation to the ASRAC**  **3 committee and PNNL can take that up through**  **4 our other discretionary programs, our research**  **5 and development programs like Building America**  **6 or the codes and standard program, right.**  **7 We have those available, the means**  **8 to do education, public outreach, whatever we**  **9 need to do, to make this less burdensome to**  **10 the industry. So anyway I put that offer on**  **11 the table, and that's my findings for the**  **12 Manual J and Manual S.**  **13 But my recommendation is we include**  **14 the Manual J and Manual S provision in the**  **15 terms sheet, but we should have discussions of**  **16 that.**  **17 MR. RAMIREZ: Well, any other**  **18 working group -- I'm sorry. Lois?**  **19 MS. STARKEY: Joe, I just wanted to**  **20 thank you for that offer, and the Department**  **21 of Energy. I think that's excellent. I think**  **22 it'll be very, appreciate the offer and I'm** 

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### 1 sure it'll be very well received by, I'm sure **2 there will be some recommendations. 3 (Simultaneous speaking)**  **4 MR. HAGERMAN: Yes, I mean we're 5 here to help, right? I mean whatever we can**  **6 do to make this thing a huge success for the 7 industry, right. We want the analyst's**  **8 shipments to go up and we want people to save 9 a lot of energy.**  **10 MR. EZZO: This is Mark Ezzo. Can I 11 make a comment on that?**  **12 MR. HAGERMAN: Sure. 13 MR. EZZO: I'd like to recommend**  **14 exactly what Joe just offered that our 15 committee ask for ASRAC to provide a tool,**  **16 it's called REScheck, REScheck modified tool 17 that would accommodate, you know, whatever we**  **18 come up with for Uo values per zone and have 19 a REScheck tool that would perform, you know,**  **20 compliance calculation to whatever we come up 21 with.**  **22 And then in addition, have that same**

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 REScheck tool provide an equipment sizing**  **2 recommendation as well. I think that would be**  **3 real helpful for not only manufacturers but**  **4 people doing equipment sizing in the field and**  **5 anybody else who wanted to use the tool. I**  **6 think it would be real handy for us to have.**  **7 MR. LUBLINER: This is Mike**  **8 Lubliner.**  **9 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, Michael.**  **10 MR. LUBLINER: Yes, I totally**  **11 support where Mark and Joe are going. I was**  **12 on the Manual S committee at ACCA and we**  **13 learned a lot about sizing of equipment,**  **14 particularly heat pumps and how it varies in**  **15 different climates and how without the proper**  **16 sizing you're not getting the performance that**  **17 you think you're getting and what we're**  **18 assuming in the analysis, which is an**  **19 idealized HSPF or SEER for the air**  **20 conditioner.**  **21 I'd also encourage you, if DOE's**  **22 able, to include a duct sizing guide for** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 ensuring that the air flow you're getting**  **2 through the air conditioner is adequate,**  **3 because that too will dramatically impact the**  **4 performance of the air conditioner or the heat**  **5 pump. I think it's great.**  **6 So I would just add a Manual D to**  **7 that for our wish list in Building America**  **8 here. Thank you.**  **9 MR. RAMIREZ: All right, so let's go**  **10 ahead and gauge consensus on that. It seems**  **11 like there a lot of support for it. So**  **12 basically what, and let me make sure I get**  **13 this right.**  **14 You're asking to make a**  **15 recommendation to ASRAC that Manual J and**  **16 Manual S be considered by PNNL as a REScheck**  **17 tool to perform compliance, cost and equipment**  **18 and duct size.**  **19 MR. LACEY: I think cost was**  **20 included in there.**  **21 (Off microphone comments)**  **22 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, Manny.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. SANTANA: I think that it's a**  **2 little premature to, I don't think we have the**  **3 Manual J, Manual S calc.**  **4 What I was hearing is that you might**  **5 recommend that DOE develop some kind of online**  **6 compliance tool to do the performance**  **7 evaluation via whatever it is that we end up,**  **8 whether it's Manual J and S or something else.**  **9 That's what I would understand.**  **10 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. So it's**  **11 something else.**  **12 MR. HAGERMAN: So, yes, I agree with**  **13 you, Manny. So let's do this. Can we all go**  **14 back to your subcommittee's handout and talk**  **15 about the requirement R403.7, the equipment**  **16 sizing and efficiency ratings?**  **17 MR. RAMIREZ: Again, sorry folks.**  **18 You don't have it online because we thought we**  **19 were going to go on to some, Matthew. Does**  **20 everyone that's online, do you have that?**  **21 MR. HAGERMAN: Yes, and I'm happy to**  **22 read it real quick to everybody.** 

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### 1 MS. HOFFMAN: Why don't you do that? **2 MR. HAGERMAN: I'm just going to do 3 that. So it's on, looks like it's on Page 5**  **4 of Manny's handout. At the very bottom, it's 5 highlighted in yellow.**  **6 It says "R403.7 Equipment Sizing and 7 Efficiency Rating," and in parentheses,**  **8 "Mandatory." It says "Heating and cooling 9 equipment shall be sized in accordance with**  **10 ACCA Manual S, based on building loads 11 calculated in accordance with ACCA Manual J**  **12 or other approved heating and cooling 13 calculation methodologies.**  **14 "New or replacement heating and 15 cooling equipment shall have an efficiency**  **16 rating equal to or greater than the minimum 17 required by federal law for the geographic**  **18 location where the equipment is installed." 19 MR. LUBLINER: This is Mike**  **20 Lubliner. 21 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, Michael.**  **22 MR. LUBLINER: Yes, I'm wondering if**

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 we can address Mark and my support of Manual**  **2 S and J here. I'd like to add Manual D, but**  **3 I also address Manny's concern by just saying**  **4 referencing those standards or equivalent.**  **5 And that way if somebody comes up with**  **6 something that's equivalent that it could be**  **7 also integrated in that.**  **8 But I think we want to accept at**  **9 least in principle the Manual J, S, and I**  **10 would strongly encourage ACCA Manual D.**  **11 They're a package because there's something**  **12 enforced there about the systems in the**  **13 industry.**  **14 MR. HAGERMAN: So your**  **15 recommendation would read, heating and cooling**  **16 equipment shall be sized in accordance with**  **17 ACCA Manual S based on building laws**  **18 calculated in accordance with Manual J, ACCA**  **19 Manual J, and following ACCA Manual D or other**  **20 equivalent heating and cooling calculation**  **21 methodologies?**  **22 MR. LUBLINER: Couldn't have said it** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 better myself, Joe.**  **2 MS. HOFFMAN: Peter and then Dave.**  **3 Peter?**  **4 MR. SCHNEIDER: I was just going to**  **5 concur with Michael. I support that language**  **6 as well. I think that --**  **7 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay, thank you.**  **8 MR. TOMPOS: Dave Tompos. Manual D**  **9 is not in here, and I'm just curious of is it**  **10 in the IECC at all?**  **11 MR. HAGERMAN: Mike Lubliner, could**  **12 you describe what Manual D is?**  **13 MR. LUBLINER: Manual D is, once**  **14 you've done the Manual J in heating loss that**  **15 you do Manual S in sizing equipment, then if**  **16 the equipment is forced air heating or cooling**  **17 equipment as is this industry's equipment,**  **18 then you do a Manual D to size the duct work**  **19 to make sure that you're getting the 400 cfm**  **20 per ton required so that you achieve the HSPF**  **21 or SEER that we're assuming in the thermal**  **22 analysis.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 My experience has been that quite**  **2 often when you get into the larger units with**  **3 the standard trunk duct system and a coil that**  **4 many times it's challenging to get to the 400**  **5 cfm per ton.**  **6 So the other option if we're not**  **7 going to include Manual D is to derate the**  **8 equipment in the thermal analysis which I'm**  **9 not recommending.**  **10 MR. ROY: This is Robin. Does**  **11 anybody know why Manual D is not referenced in**  **12 IECC?**  **13 MR. LACEY: This is Eric. It might**  **14 --**  **15 (Simultaneous speaking)**  **16 MS. HOFFMAN: Eric is speaking.**  **17 MR. LACEY: Maybe he knows more than**  **18 I do about this, so --**  **19 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay, Michael? You**  **20 can continue.**  **21 MR. LUBLINER: I was going to say,**  **22 Manual D, I understand, isn't the I-codes.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 It's specific to ducting systems. But I think**  **2 I would strongly recommend that we include it,**  **3 or in the Building America research determine**  **4 if the air flows are adequate as is.**  **5 But again when you don't get the 400**  **6 cfm per ton, which, you know, for a four-ton**  **7 air conditioner it is a lot of flow. I don't**  **8 know if you guys ever mention the flow rates**  **9 of your forced air heating systems, but it's**  **10 hard to achieve that in certain situations.**  **11 So what you're doing is you're**  **12 reducing the performance of the heating**  **13 equipment or the cooling equipment, and we're**  **14 assuming the equipment is performing at 400**  **15 cfm per ton.**  **16 So even though this is not in the I**  **17 codes, I would recommend that we incorporate**  **18 it into our codes. So what we talked about**  **19 was being able to incorporate things that were**  **20 not always in the I-codes, and this is a**  **21 realistic and legitimate one, and if you don't**  **22 incorporate it, I would encourage DOE to do** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 its own research on the side to see if the**  **2 assumptions in the model are being met. Thank**  **3 you.**  **4 MR. SANTANA: Manny with Cavco.**  **5 MR. POTTS: This is Richard.**  **6 MR. RAMIREZ: Let's get Manny and**  **7 then Richard. Yes, Manny?**  **8 MR. SANTANA: Going back to the**  **9 concept of beating an element, I suggest we**  **10 talk about R403.7 and its own merits first and**  **11 then move on to any other additional**  **12 suggestions.**  **13 You know, there's plenty to discuss**  **14 with this section itself. So that's**  **15 suggestion number one. I guess number two is**  **16 reading R403.7, it does include the options**  **17 for other methodologies.**  **18 I would just, the term "approved"**  **19 would have to be tightened up a little bit**  **20 unless that's understood to mean approved by**  **21 HUD or approved by DOE or approved by who**  **22 exactly. So we have to define that.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 Also, the line on new or replacement**  **2 heating or cooling equipment, I think that**  **3 every equipment should be considered new**  **4 because it's new construction. Retrofit**  **5 replacement through outside of our scope of**  **6 factory.**  **7 So I think both new or replacement**  **8 should be removed and we just call it, heating**  **9 and cooling equipment shall have, et cetera,**  **10 et cetera.**  **11 MR. HAGERMAN: This is Joe Hagerman.**  **12 I think you can strike the last sentence that**  **13 says "new or replacement heating equipment**  **14 shall have the efficiency rating equal to or**  **15 greater than the minimum required by federal**  **16 law." I mean that's a law. You've got to do**  **17 that anyway. You can't buy the stuff that's**  **18 lower than law. So it's a redundant sentence.**  **19 We can strike that sentence.**  **20 MR. ROY: So Manny's proposal is**  **21 that, essential to me is to insert the word**  **22 "DOE" before the word "approved" in the first** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 sentence. Manual J or other DOE approved**  **2 heating and cooling calculation methodologies.**  **3 MR. SANTANA: Manny again. That**  **4 might be that's up to somebody else, I guess,**  **5 the enforcement committee. Because I don't**  **6 know if DOE is going to approve the**  **7 methodology or recommend or send that to the**  **8 current HUD infrastructure.**  **9 You know, we don't know how that's**  **10 going to play out. But I think if we just put**  **11 that, maybe highlight that or put it in**  **12 quotations so we know it's still up in the**  **13 air.**  **14 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay, Mark?**  **15 MR. WEISS: To recognize Rick.**  **16 MR. MENDLEN: Thank you. For HUD to**  **17 accept it, we don't accept the terms "other**  **18 approved" or even "equivalent" or anything**  **19 like that. For the purpose of enforcement we**  **20 have to define what it is, specifically what**  **21 it is that we're talking about.**  **22 So if there's a DOE document that** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 becomes equivalent to Manual J and Manual S**  **2 that's fine. But I have to have a name for it**  **3 and we'll have to reference it specifically.**  **4 Just for purposes of enforcement just as Manny**  **5 just said.**  **6 MR. RAMIREZ: You know, I skipped**  **7 over Richard. So let me go back to Richard**  **8 and then Joe and then Michael.**  **9 MR. POTTS: Yes, this is Richard**  **10 Potts. We were talking about Manual D and**  **11 whatever's referenced in the I-codes. While**  **12 it's not recognized or referenced in the IECC,**  **13 it is in the IRC under duct systems.**  **14 I mean I do think it's a good idea**  **15 to use that standard for designing ducts. You**  **16 know, pressure balancing is a big issue and I**  **17 know there's a lot of in homes. If you have**  **18 a pressure valve event between --**  **19 (Simultaneous speaking)**  **20 --some of those issues. But it is**  **21 under duct systems for Manual C in the IRC.**  **22 MR. RAMIREZ: Thank you.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 Joe?**  **2 MR. HAGERMAN: Just two things about**  **3 the approved. First of all, on Page R7 of the**  **4 IECC, approved is a defined term, right. It**  **5 says approved by the code official as a result**  **6 of investigation tests conducted by whoever or**  **7 et cetera, et cetera.**  **8 So I think too, here in R403.7,**  **9 we've got to recognize two things here. One**  **10 is, some of this equipment is shipped from the**  **11 factory so if there would be approval of an**  **12 equivalent tool that would seem like it would**  **13 be in DOE's jurisdiction, right?**  **14 And DOE has a history of, there's a**  **15 tax credit or used to be a tax credit called**  **16 179D where we had to approve software and**  **17 equivalent methods and it took us 30 days. I**  **18 mean people would submit it, we'd review it**  **19 and we'd approve it. It's not a laborious**  **20 process, right?**  **21 So we had a history of doing that so**  **22 it's not the purpose of the department. And** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 then second, we have to recognize 403.7 would**  **2 cover the equipment that is installed in the**  **3 site, right, so the local code official would**  **4 have jurisdiction over that equipment. So we**  **5 just sort of have to, don't we have to rectify**  **6 the two? So I don't think DOE approved is**  **7 actually, would work.**  **8 MR. UNGAR: I don't understand the**  **9 last point.**  **10 MR. HAGERMAN: The last point is so**  **11 if, you know, I think when the equipment's not**  **12 shipped by the manufacturer, right, the local**  **13 code authority would have approval over what**  **14 methods are used to size the equipment, right.**  **15 MR. UNGAR: You're saying that you**  **16 think that it would apply to replacement**  **17 equipment. That the standard we're talking**  **18 about would apply to replacement equipment**  **19 with enforcement under the local code**  **20 jurisdiction?**  **21 MR. HAGERMAN: That's right.**  **22 MR. UNGAR: So we should --** 

### Page 29

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. HAGERMAN: Some states or some**  **2 jurisdiction may require you to pull permit,**  **3 right, and the code official gets involved and**  **4 they may say that, they may want to have the**  **5 authority to put some different sizing**  **6 methodology in.**  **7 MR. ROY: Joe, is it not the case**  **8 that everything that we're doing here relates**  **9 only to what's done in the factory? So the**  **10 local code official is --**  **11 (Simultaneous speaking)**  **12 MR. UNGAR: I mean we're talking**  **13 about DOE only.**  **14 MR. RAMIREZ: Let me get Michael.**  **15 Michael, Mark and then Lowell.**  **16 MR. LUBLINER: Yes. I think that if**  **17 we are specific with Manual S, Manual D,**  **18 Manual J and allow alternatives that that's**  **19 acceptable. I don't understand why we would**  **20 want to hold it up because we don't what those**  **21 alternatives are.**  **22 I think a 30-day turnaround from DOE** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 would be great if there was something that's**  **2 submitted in equivalent sizing method. I**  **3 would be concerned about HUD doing that**  **4 because they haven't been able to turn things**  **5 around very quickly.**  **6 So I would support DOE providing**  **7 assistance if somebody was to come and show an**  **8 alternative, but I think we have good sizing**  **9 ANSI standards.**  **10 The National Technology Transfer Act**  **11 says the government should use recognized**  **12 standards before developing its own standards.**  **13 And I think that utilizing the sizing tool**  **14 from the national labs that uses Manual S,**  **15 Manual J, Manual D would be ideal.**  **16 It would save the manufacturers**  **17 money on software development, allow them to**  **18 move forward with building a home that's got**  **19 adequately sized heating equipment, air**  **20 conditioning equipment and duct systems. That**  **21 will afford the consumer to put in a smaller**  **22 HVAC system which will further save the** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 consumer money.**  **2 As to an assumption that these**  **3 things are inspected by local jurisdictions,**  **4 I think you'd really need to check that**  **5 assumption. Quite often the installation of**  **6 the equipment is supposed to be done to the**  **7 heating or cooling certificate provided by the**  **8 manufacturer. And I'd like to see that**  **9 heating and cooling certificate reflect the**  **10 sizing using Manual S on it.**  **11 And that way, anybody who puts the**  **12 equipment in or inspects the equipment after**  **13 market, whether it's retrofit or on the first**  **14 sale, knows exactly what the size air**  **15 conditioner and the ducts that were built for**  **16 the house, what the proper tonnage is to**  **17 accommodate that system. Thank you.**  **18 MR. RAMIREZ: All right, so then**  **19 let's get Mark and then Lowell.**  **20 MR. WEISS: Well, if you're going to**  **21 put DOE in there -- Mark Weiss, MHARR. If**  **22 you're going to put DOE in there, put HUD in** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 there too. DOE or HUD.**  **2 MR. UNGAR: So a few things.**  **3 Putting Manual D in makes sense to me. It**  **4 seems to be an energy issue also and would be**  **5 consistent with IECC. Since we're in general**  **6 taking now direct references to IRC, to put it**  **7 in here from what I know makes sense.**  **8 There's nothing as far as I know in the**  **9 statute that limits us to the factory. There**  **10 obviously would be an enforcement issue to the**  **11 extent we go beyond the factory and, you know,**  **12 so far we've only discussed things that can be**  **13 done in the factory.**  **14 But I'll just note for the record at**  **15 least that I don't think there's to my**  **16 knowledge a legal limitation on that. In any**  **17 case, whether or not it's the factory or who's**  **18 doing the enforcement, it seems to me that if**  **19 you're talking about approving a methodology**  **20 for sizing that that can be done by a**  **21 centralized expert authority rather than by**  **22 local jurisdiction.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 And for IECC, IECC is not going to **2 do that if there's not an obvious choice, but 3 just for our purposes there is, and to me it**  **4 makes sense to have one approval agency. And 5 given that this energy code, I think it makes**  **6 sense to me for this to be DOE unless there 7 are issues that go beyond DOE and this energy**  **8 code that I'm not aware of. 9 I forgot my last point. I'll stop**  **10 there. 11 MR. HAGERMAN: This is Joe. I mean**  **12 I don't think our statute, the GC would have 13 to comment. I don't think our statute can**  **14 probably tell HUD to do anything. Is that 15 right? We only have jurisdiction of**  **16 ourselves. 17 MR. JENSEN: This is Mike Jensen**  **18 from DOEGC. The only limitation in the 19 statutory authority is that I believe the**  **20 statute says that DOE is to set energy 21 efficiency standards for manufacturers of**  **22 manufactured housing.**

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 The term "manufacturers" is not**  **2 defined in the statute. Theoretically, the**  **3 group can define that term any way that it**  **4 wants. Of course that being said, the term**  **5 "manufacturer" is defined in that code.**  **6 MR. LUBLINER: This is Mike**  **7 Lubliner.**  **8 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, Michael.**  **9 MR. LUBLINER: My understanding is**  **10 that the HUD program requires that the**  **11 manufacturer provide a heating and cooling**  **12 certificate with the home, permanently affixed**  **13 to the home, to allow for the after market**  **14 correct sizing of that equipment.**  **15 So I think it's fully under the DOE**  **16 statute to be able to suggest the appropriate**  **17 ANSI approved software for sizing and heating**  **18 equipment.**  **19 MR. UNGAR: Sorry, that reminded me**  **20 of my last -- okay. That it makes a lot of**  **21 sense to me to put on the certificate in a**  **22 home a worst case sizing, appropriate sizing** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 for worst case placement of the home.**  **2 You know, for then, for after market**  **3 replacement there will be in the home itself**  **4 a description of, you know, there's no reason**  **5 they should put in any equipment larger than**  **6 what's on the certificate. And that certainly**  **7 could be done at the factory and it seems to**  **8 me would be enormously helpful.**  **9 So I think that would be an**  **10 appropriate way of as a minimum of addressing**  **11 replacement equipment, or any equipment that's**  **12 put in after the factory.**  **13 MR. RAMIREZ: Mark?**  **14 MR. WEISS: Mark Weiss, MHARR. I**  **15 think HUD retains full jurisdiction over all**  **16 aspects of regulation, manufactured housing**  **17 safety and construction. Further, in those**  **18 specifically given the DOE under this statute**  **19 and pending some authoritative determination**  **20 of that I think HUD should be in there.**  **21 It's authoritative determination of**  **22 the scope of that delegation to DOE in** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 abrogation of HUD's otherwise comprehensive **2 jurisdiction over the subject. 3 MR. UNGAR: Can I ask, Mark, can you**  **4 explain? I know we're talking about a DOE 5 standard. I mean I'm just not getting what**  **6 the HUD jurisdiction over the specific 7 question of the building loads and heating --**  **8 MR. WEISS: HUD has comprehensive 9 jurisdiction over the construction and safety**  **10 of manufactured housing except over what was 11 specifically delegated by Congress to DOE**  **12 under the statute. 13 (Simultaneous speaking)**  **14 MR. WEISS: The statute further 15 directs DOE to consult with HUD with respect**  **16 to those standards. So the statute itself 17 does not cut HUD completely out of the**  **18 standards making process. 19 Therefore, until somebody tells me**  **20 otherwise, I'm with HUD that still have the 21 authority to have a role in this process with**  **22 regard to these issues.**

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. UNGAR: So in setting the**  **2 standard, DOE is suddenly required to consult**  **3 with HUD quite, I'm sure, properly, and so I**  **4 hope will do so fully.**  **5 What I'm not understanding is, do**  **6 you think that in approving, I mean the**  **7 equivalent, I guess, would be that if somebody**  **8 proposes an alternative sizing calculation**  **9 methodology, do you think DOE needs to consult**  **10 with HUD before approving that methodology?**  **11 MR. WEISS: I'm sitting here, I**  **12 don't know. All I know is I don't want to cut**  **13 out any more of HUD's authority and role in**  **14 jurisdiction other than what's specifically**  **15 provided under the statute. If there be**  **16 consultation, I'm not willing to excise HUD**  **17 from this.**  **18 MR. UNGAR: Do you think there's**  **19 reason for consultation on that question of**  **20 approving the methodology --**  **21 (Simultaneous speaking)**  **22 MR. UNGAR: -- have an objection to** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 it. But obviously it will slow the process**  **2 down. I believe in industry if that's really**  **3 something you want that's what you want, not**  **4 that I would object to it.**  **5 MR. WEISS: I mean I could argue**  **6 there's basis for consultation on everything**  **7 going forward including continuing updates of**  **8 the code and updates of enforcement. So why**  **9 not this too?**  **10 MR. UNGAR: Absolutely, in**  **11 consultation in updating the standard, I would**  **12 agree.**  **13 MR. HAGERMAN: So could we not just**  **14 put -- this is Joe Hagerman, DOE. Could we**  **15 not just say to Mark's point, DOE consultation**  **16 with HUD in this? Seems like to just reflect**  **17 the statute is the most logical thing to do if**  **18 the concern is really valid.**  **19 I mean I don't really think we have**  **20 the authority to tell HUD to do anything to be**  **21 honest with you. So it's our statute. We**  **22 can't say, another way of looking at it, we** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 can't in our statute tell HUD and other**  **2 departments you've got to do anything, right?**  **3 We don't have jurisdiction or approval, right?**  **4 MS. STARKEY: I'd like to call the**  **5 question on this issue and --**  **6 MALE PARTICIPANT: Just take a vote?**  **7 MS. STARKEY: -- take a vote. I**  **8 think we're getting a little too down in the**  **9 weeds and we need to have offline conversation**  **10 about this issue.**  **11 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. Let's make sure**  **12 that we understand what we're -- now are you**  **13 saying to this question or to 403.7?**  **14 MS. STARKEY: 403.7.**  **15 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay, so 403.7, in**  **16 listening to you all this is what I have.**  **17 403.7 would read, equipment sizing and**  **18 efficiency rating mandatory.**  **19 And then it says, heating and**  **20 cooling equipment shall be sized in accordance**  **21 with ACCA Manual S based on building loads**  **22 calculated in accordance with ACCA Manual J** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 and following Manual D or other DOE approved**  **2 heating and cooling calculation methodologies,**  **3 period. Let me see a show of thumbs. First,**  **4 is that you what you agree? Is that what**  **5 everyone has been talking about?**  **6 MR. UNGAR: I thought we were**  **7 talking about the "approved" needed some --**  **8 MR. HAGERMAN: I think we're moving**  **9 to a full load of all R403.7 as he just read**  **10 it.**  **11 MR. RAMIREZ: With just approved,**  **12 DOE.**  **13 MR. HAGERMAN: With DOE approved?**  **14 MR. RAMIREZ: I didn't hear the DOE.**  **15 (Simultaneous speaking)**  **16 MALE PARTICIPANT: DOE approved.**  **17 MS. HOFFMAN: Do you need to say it**  **18 again?**  **19 MR. HAGERMAN: Yes, read it again,**  **20 but end with the Manual D provisions.**  **21 MS. HOFFMAN: Why don't you read it**  **22 slowly?** 

### Page 41

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### MR. SANTANA: Can you type it on the **2** 

### screen? **3** 

### MS. HOFFMAN: Oh, can you type it? **4** 

### Actually it's your computer. **5** 

### (Simultaneous speaking) **6** 

### MR. RAMIREZ: I'm going to email it **7** 

### to Matthew real quick. **8** 

### MR. HAGERMAN: I think we'll email **9** 

### it, and give us two seconds. **10** 

### MS. HOFFMAN: Because I think it's **11** 

### important. **12** 

### MR. HAGERMAN: We'll see how fast **13** 

### the electrons are today. **14** 

### MS. HOFFMAN: By the way, Emily, has **15** 

### anyone else joined online? **16** 

### EMILY: Manny's online. **17** 

### (Off microphone comments) **18** 

### MR. LUBLINER: This is Mike **19** 

### Lubliner. **20** 

### MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, Michael? **21** 

### MR. LUBLINER: Yes, I just hope we **22** 

### cannot get into discussions about who has

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 jurisdiction between -- **2 MR. RAMIREZ: Let me stop you right 3 here because we just ended that. So we're**  **4 just waiting for -- 5 MR. LUBLINER: Very good. Very**  **6 good. 7 MR. RAMIREZ: We're just waiting for**  **8 the Outlook to pop up here which in my 9 computer too is painfully slow to open. But**  **10 as soon as that does then we'll show you the 11 language in there and if you need to make any**  **12 additional edits we'll do so. 13 Mark?**  **14 MR. WEISS: Just one final comment. 15 You know, this is an issue that might appear**  **16 minor on its face, but potentially it has 17 significant consequences down the road which**  **18 is why I addressed it. 19 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay, thank you.**  **20 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. Let's see if we 21 could --**  **22 MS. HOFFMAN: Can you make it**

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 bigger?**  **2 MR. RAMIREZ: All right, so the**  **3 folks that are online you should have it in**  **4 front of you now. And just to make sure that**  **5 everyone is consistent and also for the**  **6 record, I'll read it one more time.**  **7 "Heating and cooling equipment shall**  **8 be sized in accordance with ACCA Manual S**  **9 based on building loads calculated in**  **10 accordance with ACCA Manual J and following**  **11 Manual D or other DOE approved heating and**  **12 cooling calculation methodologies."**  **13 MR. UNGAR: Can we, after the HUD,**  **14 deal with punctuation so that --**  **15 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes.**  **16 MALE PARTICIPANT: DOE approved**  **17 applies across the board not just to Manual D**  **18 as it sounds like.**  **19 MR. RAMIREZ: And I appreciate that**  **20 you're saying, and let's do the content that**  **21 we did, wordsmith it. Okay. So let me see a**  **22 show of thumbs if 403.7 as shown on the screen** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 is acceptable.**  **2 Okay, we have two thumbs down in the**  **3 room, and anyone online with their thumbs**  **4 down?**  **5 MR. SANTANA: I have thumbs down.**  **6 Manny.**  **7 MR. RAMIREZ: Manny. Do either one**  **8 of you three want to talk briefly about --**  **9 Mark, we know why. David?**  **10 MR. TOMPOS: I just had technical**  **11 issues potentially. I don't know exactly what**  **12 Manual J, D and S, because I'm thinking that**  **13 Manual J is a heat loss calc based on a room**  **14 by-room calculation. And I need to do a**  **15 little more research into Manual J.**  **16 I mean I wasn't expecting to look at**  **17 this. I need to look at it in more detail.**  **18 So I'm just concerned there's some, especially**  **19 in Manual D on how we do duct designs, I'd**  **20 like to take an example home and somebody walk**  **21 through the actual calculations and make sure**  **22 we can still do this.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. Manny, what**  **2 concerns did you have?**  **3 MR. SANTANA: The objection that I**  **4 have revolves around Manual D, and for the**  **5 following reason. Everything else in this**  **6 section is in the IECC currently and**  **7 everything else in this section is mandatory**  **8 in the IECC.**  **9 Manual D is just something we're**  **10 throwing in there without any explanation to**  **11 impact either on cost or manufacturing or**  **12 procurement of supplies, without knowing**  **13 exactly how it's going to affect industry.**  **14 And there are mandates that we have,**  **15 our charters, so to speak, say that we can**  **16 implement things that are above and beyond if**  **17 it's cost effective. And we haven't given any**  **18 thought, we haven't had any discussions,**  **19 there's been no merit to substantiate it.**  **20 And, you know, I'm not opposed to**  **21 considering it, but I think the addition of**  **22 Manual D is premature considering this** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 section. You know, I think we consider this**  **2 section first. If you remove Manual D then**  **3 I'm thumbs up. But with that in there then**  **4 I'm not.**  **5 MR. LUBLINER: This is Mike**  **6 Lubliner.**  **7 MR. RAMIREZ: Michael, hold on a**  **8 second. Let me get Eric and then you.**  **9 Eric.**  **10 MR. LACEY: This is Eric from RECA.**  **11 Again I'm trying to aim for a compromise here.**  **12 Just out of curiosity, but those manufacturers**  **13 who make modular homes and manufactured homes,**  **14 are they already using Manual J and Manual S**  **15 for the modular homes? I assume so.**  **16 If you're in an IECC jurisdiction,**  **17 this requirement's been there for a little**  **18 while. I would assume you're at least**  **19 familiar with the process, if not already**  **20 using it in modular homes. Is that --**  **21 MR. SANTANA: If I may.**  **22 MR. LACEY: Go ahead.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. SANTANA: Well, two items. One**  **2 is not every manufacturer of HUD construction**  **3 manufactures mods. That's one. Now the many**  **4 fabricators that do, in my experience, and I**  **5 can only speak from my experience that mods,**  **6 when they build mods they don't do a Manual S**  **7 and Manual J because they all run the**  **8 REScheck, except the ones in California that**  **9 do the energy software specific to California.**  **10 And the duct design is always**  **11 handled by some of the suppliers, which in my**  **12 experience, this is the south so the plants**  **13 themselves, and I have no familiarity with**  **14 Manual J so I don't know what it says at all.**  **15 And, you know, my opposition isn't**  **16 because I think the idea will be bad, I don't**  **17 know enough about it to say good or bad. And**  **18 I haven't heard any discussion from the**  **19 committee to that extent either.**  **20 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay.**  **21 MR. LUBLINER: Mike Lubliner.**  **22 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, yes. Let me get** 

### Page 48

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 Michael.**  **2 MR. LACEY: Can we just finish the -**  **3 -**  **4 (Simultaneous speaking)**  **5 MS. HOFFMAN: Go ahead.**  **6 MR. RAMIREZ: Hold on.**  **7 (Simultaneous speaking)**  **8 MR. LACEY: Let me finish the**  **9 thought I started. I just asked a question to**  **10 kind of get a sense of where the manufacturers**  **11 are.**  **12 But what would happen if we removed**  **13 the requirement? As much as I want to put**  **14 Manual D in there, and I agree with you, Luby.**  **15 But if we remove the Manual D reference from**  **16 the requirement here, but in our instructions**  **17 to DOE on the subject, since it's in the end**  **18 we want DOE to pick it up, some kind of tool,**  **19 to make it more specific to the manufactured**  **20 housing industry, but here what's at issue is**  **21 some alternatives.**  **22 Either you meet Manual S and Manual** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 J, like you probably are for your modular**  **2 homes, but if you're not using that or if for**  **3 some other reason you don't want to use those**  **4 then DOE's going to approve a tool or develop**  **5 a tool, and in our term sheet maybe we give**  **6 DOE some instructions including we want DOE to**  **7 take a look at Manual D and whether this is**  **8 something that could be included or calculated**  **9 and, you know.**  **10 Anyway I'm hoping that maybe if you**  **11 cut Manual D out of the requirement and**  **12 include it in the directions to DOE in**  **13 developing the tool maybe we can get some kind**  **14 of compromise here.**  **15 MS. STARKEY: Yes, I think the**  **16 conversation started with Mark as we suggested**  **17 and endorse the gracious recommendation or**  **18 that DOE would develop a methodology that we**  **19 could use both in the factory and even in the**  **20 field.**  **21 So in developing the -- I don't**  **22 think the intent was to actually put specific** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 language in beyond the need that we need to do**  **2 some sort of equipment sizing. So I endorse**  **3 the recommendation of taking out Manual D and**  **4 have DOE as it develops the methodology look**  **5 at Manual D in developing this tool.**  **6 MR. RAMIREZ: Let's get Michael now.**  **7 MR. LUBLINER: No, I'm okay with**  **8 taking Manual D out for consensus, but I do**  **9 want to make a few points regarding this. I**  **10 did bring Manual D up in our subcommittee,**  **11 Manny, as part of something that should be**  **12 considered.**  **13 Also, I really don't care if it's**  **14 Manual D or what. If DOE's going to look into**  **15 this, then I would like that Dave Tompos and**  **16 you to submit your duct sizing calculations to**  **17 DOE so they can look at them and see how they**  **18 compare to Manual D.**  **19 My experience for measuring air flow**  **20 in the field is that the flow rates of the**  **21 furnaces with the air conditioning coils on it**  **22 often do not meet the 400 cfm per ton, which** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 is why I suggested that we have some design of**  **2 the duct work and confirm that we're meeting**  **3 the assumptions in the thermal modeling.**  **4 I think that I'm surprised that you**  **5 guys aren't aware of Manual J or Manual S, but**  **6 regardless of that these are ANSI approved**  **7 standards. And the National Technology**  **8 Transfer Act says that government, like DOE,**  **9 should be looking to national vetted ANSI**  **10 standards before developing its own standards.**  **11 So I would say let's take it out for**  **12 consensus now, but I would hopefully encourage**  **13 DOE to look at the calculations currently**  **14 being used by the industry for sizing ducts**  **15 and go one step further. And that would be go**  **16 out into the field and measure a few with**  **17 calibrated equipment to determine if they're**  **18 in compliance.**  **19 And I would like to ask a question**  **20 of HUD. If we find when we measure them in**  **21 the field that they're not meeting the flow**  **22 rates, is there any sort of enforcement or** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 follow-up that HUD would actually do to**  **2 rectify that? Because that's been one of the**  **3 major problems all along is issues that have**  **4 been identified don't get rectified.**  **5 And I'd like to see the duct design**  **6 thoroughly evaluated by DOE and I'm going to**  **7 withdraw it as part of this proposal.**  **8 MR. RAMIREZ: Thank you, Michael.**  **9 And I actually -- sorry. Hold on one second.**  **10 I've put a little note in here as part of the**  **11 ASRAC recommendations to consider Manual D for**  **12 methodology, specifically the ducts, but**  **13 anything else that we want in the**  **14 recommendations that would go to ASRAC, we'll**  **15 make sure that we'll discuss that at that**  **16 moment to see if it makes it on there.**  **17 But let me gauge the level of**  **18 consensus, or let's take a consensus vote here**  **19 with the amendment of striking Manual D or,**  **20 right. So that way it will read that heating**  **21 and cooling equipment shall be sized in**  **22 accordance with ACCA Manual S based on** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 building loads calculated in accordance with**  **2 ACCA Manual J and by other DOE approved**  **3 heating and cooling methodologies.**  **4 Let's see a show of thumbs if you're**  **5 okay with that. Okay, so Mark is a no. And**  **6 I'm assuming it's the same --**  **7 MR. WEISS: Yes, same.**  **8 MR. RAMIREZ: Anyone else on line**  **9 with their thumbs down?**  **10 MR. SCHNEIDER: This is Peter. Can**  **11 you guys hear me?**  **12 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, Peter.**  **13 MS. HOFFMAN: First Peter, and then**  **14 Ishbel. Peter?**  **15 MR. SCHNEIDER: This is Peter. So,**  **16 you know, just anecdotally. And if we're not**  **17 doing testing as some of our weatherization**  **18 agencies have, but --**  **19 MR. RAMIREZ: Peter, can you hang on**  **20 one second? Peter, I don't mind discussing it**  **21 a little bit further here, but I first want to**  **22 see, what, was your thumb down or sideways?** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 Or up?**  **2 MR. SCHNEIDER: Sideways, because I**  **3 feel that Manual D is critical. I haven't**  **4 come across a manufactured homeowner in**  **5 Vermont or that I've spoken to outside of**  **6 Vermont that doesn't have comfort issues and**  **7 it's not associated with undersized equipment.**  **8 It's associated with very poor duct design.**  **9 And so I think that Manual D's a**  **10 critical piece that needs to be incorporated**  **11 or an equivalent. And I know that most of my**  **12 projects utilize D. It's designed for an**  **13 eighth grader to use.**  **14 So is Manual J. I don't think that**  **15 the manufactured housing industry should be**  **16 concerned about Manual D, Manual J, Manual S**  **17 or an equivalent because it's not rocket**  **18 science. This should be standard practice.**  **19 And the reason we're having comfort**  **20 issues and poor air flow is because ultimately**  **21 these ducts are not being designed**  **22 appropriately. And the minute that you** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 compare one of these duct designs in a**2 manufactured home, particularly in a multi 3 section home, to what should have been done,**  **4 I think we'll find that there needs to be 5 better duct design.**  **6 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay, thank you, 7 Peter.**  **8 Ishbel? 9 MS. DICKENS: I just had a scrivener**  **10 question. I don't know why we have "and 11 following" in there. Those two words are not**  **12 in the original. I thought we said ACCA 13 Manual J or other DOE approved heating or**  **14 cooling calculation methodologies to make it 15 consistent working up to the original.**  **16 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay, so thank you, 17 Michael. Could you strike "following" as**  **18 well? 19 MS. DICKENS: And that includes or**  **20 after Manual D, that goes back in there. 21 MR. HAGERMAN: I think they probably**  **22 can't read the red. It may be difficult for**

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 them to see.**  **2 (Off microphone comments)**  **3 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. So that was**  **4 just, you know, a little bit more knitting.**  **5 But let's just make sure that we're still all**  **6 on board. Let's see the thumbs again.**  **7 MR. LUTER: May I offer a comment**  **8 first, please? This is Robert Luter.**  **9 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, Rob?**  **10 MR. LUTER: My thought is as long as**  **11 you've got "other" in there, and I understand**  **12 the goal of those that have spoken, could this**  **13 be as simple as saying heating and cooling**  **14 equipment shall be sized in accordance with**  **15 building loads and calculated using DOE**  **16 approved heating and cooling methodologies,**  **17 period?**  **18 As long as other methodologies are**  **19 going to be acceptable, other would include**  **20 Manual S, Manual J and Manual D. It would**  **21 establish the intent, and at that point the**  **22 manufacturer could use the methodology, if it** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 was DOE approved you're saying shouldn't it**  **2 work for them.**  **3 MR. RAMIREZ: Well, I think that,**  **4 and I guess this is just the outside observer**  **5 saying that the S and J, it seems like there's**  **6 no really issues with that. It was just more**  **7 of this editing piece at the moment.**  **8 I'd like to see the consensus vote**  **9 on this one, and if there's still issues then**  **10 we can look at additional edits. So let's go**  **11 ahead and let's see the show of thumbs up for**  **12 403.7.**  **13 Okay, Mark Weiss has his thumb down**  **14 and we know the reason for that.**  **15 MS. HOFFMAN: And Mark, let me just**  **16 clarify. Your reason is consultation with**  **17 HUD? Is that the reason?**  **18 MR. WEISS: Yes, I mean consultation**  **19 developed with HUD.**  **20 MS. HOFFMAN: With HUD, okay.**  **21 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay, and then anyone**  **22 else on line?** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. LUBLINER: Yes, this is Mike**  **2 Lubliner.**  **3 MS. HOFFMAN: Yes.**  **4 MR. LUBLINER: I had a question**  **5 regarding the consultation with HUD. Is Rick**  **6 Mendlen --**  **7 (Simultaneous speaking)**  **8 MR. RAMIREZ: Hold on a second,**  **9 Michael. Are you okay with this verbiage?**  **10 MR. LUBLINER: Yes, I am.**  **11 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay, let's deal with**  **12 that now. Okay.**  **13 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes. And is anyone**  **14 else thumb down? All right, so then it's a**  **15 one no vote. This 403.7 is okay.**  **16 And Michael, I'm going to ask --**  **17 (Simultaneous speaking)**  **18 MR. RAMIREZ: I'm going to ask if**  **19 you guys want to have the conversation on the**  **20 HUD component off line, because I think we may**  **21 have some other things that we want to get to**  **22 and that's not something that we're going to** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 --**  **2 MR. LUBLINER: Very good.**  **3 MR. HAGERMAN: This is Joe Hagerman**  **4 again. We really need to move on to the**  **5 performance and prescriptive discussion, so if**  **6 you have additional comments why don't you**  **7 just --**  **8 MR. LUBLINER: I apologize.**  **9 MR. HAGERMAN: That's okay. If you**  **10 have additional comments why don't you just**  **11 email me and I'll put them on the record.**  **12 MR. WEISS: Just one. I'm not**  **13 trying to hold up the discussion, this is just**  **14 a technical issue that I feel needs to be**  **15 indicated in the record, that's all, for**  **16 future --**  **17 MR. HAGERMAN: About the in**  **18 consultation with the HUD.**  **19 MR. WEISS: Yes, and the**  **20 jurisdictions.**  **21 MR. HAGERMAN: And you have duly**  **22 noted it.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. RAMIREZ: Cameron's doing a**  **2 great job over there. I'm sure he's got it**  **3 right.**  **4 MR. UNGAR: This is Lowell. Can we**  **5 just flag putting the sizing on the label as**  **6 one thing we also discussed but that should,**  **7 if we're having instructions to DOE in terms**  **8 of Manual D that should also be added, so**  **9 don't forget.**  **10 MR. HAGERMAN: We'll take note of**  **11 that.**  **12 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay. So that would**  **13 be on the label for the worst case scenario or**  **14 just sizing on the label?**  **15 MR. UNGAR: Doesn't matter as long**  **16 as we're just flagging it for a future --**  **17 MR. HAGERMAN: So let's move on to**  **18 the prescriptive performance Uo values that**  **19 Matthew had up on the screen before.**  **20 MS. HOFFMAN: Before we do, I just**  **21 want to make sure. Did Peter Schneider have**  **22 something he wanted to say? Just so I --** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 okay.**  **2 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. I want to thank**  **3 Matthew for --**  **4 MR. SCHNEIDER: Is the floor open?**  **5 MR. RAMIREZ: It's open briefly.**  **6 I'll give you a 30 second slider. Go ahead.**  **7 MR. SCHNEIDER: I don't even need 30**  **8 seconds. I just sent it to Joe Hagerman, but**  **9 I just wanted to know that the IRC calls out**  **10 that duct systems serving heating and cooling**  **11 and ventilation basically meets the provisions**  **12 of Manual D or other approved methods.**  **13 So there's a precedent out there and**  **14 there's a reason that these national standards**  **15 have been referenced, known at almost every**  **16 other standard including, you know, your**  **17 Energy Star and LEEDs and everything else is**  **18 because they're federal standards that have**  **19 been well developed and are common in the**  **20 industry.**  **21 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay, great. Thank**  **22 you, Peter. And I want to thank Matthew for** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 expanding his duties today and doing some**  **2 editing for us. Thank you, Matthew.**  **3 All right, so I think you have the**  **4 floor on the discussion that already happened**  **5 yesterday, and he had some more and let's see**  **6 what he came up with.**  **7 You know what, I'm sorry. The one**  **8 thing I would ask is, and I don't really**  **9 understand this document and in all honesty I**  **10 probably don't understand even half of it.**  **11 But there are some other folks that could use**  **12 a walkthrough on this, so if you could explain**  **13 what you did here.**  **14 MR. HAGERMAN: Let's just also ask**  **15 if everybody on the phone can hear Matthew.**  **16 MR. WALKER: This is Matthew. Test**  **17 one, two. Test.**  **18 MR. SCHNEIDER: Can hear you just**  **19 fine.**  **20 MR. HAGERMAN: Okay, great.**  **21 Matthew?**  **22 MR. WALKER: Okay. Yes, this is** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 Matthew from Navigant. So yesterday we had**  **2 discovered that there were some differences**  **3 between the Uo values that PNNL had calculated**  **4 based on the Revision 2 scenario that was in**  **5 the LCC model.**  **6 And it was different from what**  **7 Emanuel had calculated in the strawman, eight**  **8 pager that he presented yesterday. So I spent**  **9 a little time looking at it, and it turns out**  **10 that there were a few component differences**  **11 between the two runs.**  **12 So what I have here on the table is**  **13 just a summary of what those component**  **14 differences is, and I think what we want to do**  **15 is just agree on one version versus the other,**  **16 and I think we want to probably move forward**  **17 with the part of the manual presented**  **18 yesterday. But just for transparency, I**  **19 wanted everyone to see what changed.**  **20 So Zones 1 through 2 had no**  **21 differences. Zone 3, 4 and 5 had a difference**  **22 in the wall insulation. The difference was** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 either R-20 or R-21.**  **2 MR. RAMIREZ: And that's what**  **3 changed that number?**  **4 MR. WALKER: That's what changed**  **5 that number. So when Emanuel used R-21 in his**  **6 Uo calculation, R-21 is better insulation so**  **7 it saved more energy and it resulted in a**  **8 lower Uo value.**  **9 So all of Emanuel's Uo values were**  **10 smaller than the original Revision 2 Uo value.**  **11 So similarly in the ceiling for Zone 3,**  **12 Emanuel had used an R-30 ceiling, but that had**  **13 not been specified in the Revision 2 run so**  **14 there was a difference there.**  **15 In this case, the R-30 ceiling would**  **16 save less energy which would make the Uo value**  **17 larger, but we had two competing factors here.**  **18 So I have another table that shows what the**  **19 final Uo was.**  **20 And then to round out the table in**  **21 Zones 6, 7 and 8, there were some differences**  **22 in the ceiling and floor. Emanuel's runs had** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 used some XPS as opposed to their traditional**  **2 fiberglass insulation. And so in those cases**  **3 -- go ahead, Emanuel.**  **4 MR. LEVY: This is Emanuel. I would**  **5 say I'm afraid those ones are actually**  **6 identical. The XPS was just a label we put on**  **7 it because it had to do with our cost**  **8 analysis.**  **9 When we used R-38 in conjunction**  **10 with walls that had XPS, we just put that**  **11 label on to indicate that the XPS was running**  **12 an extra couple inches because of the change**  **13 in the height of the wall. So it's actually**  **14 38. It's 38. All those are identical.**  **15 MR. HAGERMAN: So can you correct**  **16 that real quick, Matthew?**  **17 MR. WALKER: Sure.**  **18 MR. HAGERMAN: Just so everybody**  **19 will know, on the phone can see. So, Emanuel,**  **20 thanks for that clarification.**  **21 MR. WALKER: So Emanuel's costs used**  **22 the XPS version. However, he's saying that** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 the energy used is just equivalent to the**  **2 other table. So it shouldn't affect the Uo is**  **3 what he's saying.**  **4 MR. UNGAR: And just so we**  **5 understand to be clear that you're saying that**  **6 the XPS notation means that because of the**  **7 wall insulation there's an additional cost**  **8 that is really associated with the choice of**  **9 wall insulation rather than the choice of**  **10 floor?**  **11 MR. LEVY: That's right. It's only**  **12 when that ceiling is used in conjunction with**  **13 a wall like the 20+5, the 21HD+5 where you**  **14 have a little bit more XPS that the wall has**  **15 been a little steeper, we added that cost into**  **16 the cost of accomplishing the R-38.**  **17 So it doesn't change the R-value or**  **18 the U-value of the roof, it just adds a little**  **19 bit to the cost only when that is in**  **20 combination with a wall that has it installed**  **21 on it.**  **22 MR. UNGAR: The floor, you mean, not** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 roof.**  **2 MR. LEVY: Roof and/or floors. I**  **3 mean it --**  **4 MR. UNGAR: Okay.**  **5 MR. LEVY: With ASRAC.**  **6 MR. WALKER: Okay, well, thanks for**  **7 helping me with that, Emanuel. I'm glad you**  **8 were able to clarify this, and we'll get it**  **9 all situated correctly in all the different**  **10 models.**  **11 MR. HAGERMAN: So I guess, really,**  **12 the only thing that's changed, so even though**  **13 we're showing that in Zones 6A, 6B, 7 and 8,**  **14 the 38, 30, those should be blank, right,**  **15 because there is no change, right? Because**  **16 these are only the changes.**  **17 MR. WALKER: Correct.**  **18 MR. HAGERMAN: Right. So really the**  **19 only thing that changed is the requirements in**  **20 Zone 3. Yes, those zones are highlighted**  **21 there.**  **22 In our determination it looks like** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 Emanuel's is a little bit more conservative in**  **2 terms of being energy efficient, so that's why**  **3 my recommendation is let's just stick with his**  **4 use of R-values that are highlighted on Page**  **5 5 of the packet, and they should be up on the**  **6 screen right now.**  **7 MR. LACEY: Emanuel, this is Eric.**  **8 I just had a clarifying question for you.**  **9 When you're specifying the XPS, does that mean**  **10 you're putting on that continuous insulation**  **11 rather than just the cavity-only R-38?**  **12 MR. LEVY: Hi Eric. Say that one**  **13 more time, I didn't hear you.**  **14 MR. LACEY: I hate to raise more**  **15 questions, but the distinction between the R**  **16 38 and the R-38 XPS, I assume the R-38 is a**  **17 blown in, cavity-only insulation. The XPS is**  **18 a sheeting or continuous insulation. Is that**  **19 right?**  **20 MR. LEVY: When we're talking about**  **21 the ceiling insulation, there's no XPS in the**  **22 ceiling. The XPS was just a label to us to** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 remind ourselves that the cost of the ceiling,**  **2 of accomplishing that higher ceiling included**  **3 the cost of adding a little more foam on the**  **4 walls. So the ceiling in both cases, 30 or**  **5 38, all the ceilings are blown fiberglass**  **6 insulation.**  **7 MR. HAGERMAN: Okay, that explains**  **8 it.**  **9 MR. LEVY: Yes.**  **10 MR. HAGERMAN: And Emanuel, thanks**  **11 for that clarification because it was a little**  **12 confusing since XPS is an acronym for a**  **13 certain type of insulation. So we understand**  **14 what you did now, so we appreciate that.**  **15 But so, you know, now that you see**  **16 these --**  **17 MR. EZZO: This is Mark Ezzo.**  **18 MR. HAGERMAN: Go ahead, Mark.**  **19 MR. EZZO: Yes, thanks, Joe. Does**  **20 that same hold true, Emanuel, for the floor,**  **21 where on the floor it shows 30 XPS and 38 XPS?**  **22 MR. LEVY: That's right.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. EZZO: Okay.**  **2 MR. LEVY: Yes.**  **3 MR. EZZO: Thank you.**  **4 MR. LUBLINER: This is Mike**  **5 Lubliner.**  **6 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, Michael.**  **7 MR. LUBLINER: Yes, I just want to**  **8 thank Emanuel for clarifying that statement.**  **9 I wasn't clear on that in the documentation on**  **10 this cost stuff.**  **11 And so if there's a document that**  **12 has all these details, at some point it would**  **13 be real useful to get. And I think it is**  **14 important that appropriated costs, if we're**  **15 going to do a measure by measure assessment**  **16 that we be very clear as to what costs are**  **17 affecting other costs. Thank you.**  **18 MR. HAGERMAN: I should say too --**  **19 this is Joe Hagerman. Just so there's no**  **20 concern here, but I talked to GC earlier and**  **21 as we're, after the group, assuming the group**  **22 comes up with a term sheet, which I think** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 we're pretty close to voting on this use of O**  **2 values right now, at least that's what I'm**  **3 trying to get us to.**  **4 If we have questions on the**  **5 information that you provided, there's no**  **6 problem with us reaching out to you and asking**  **7 questions of the materials, right?**  **8 Particularly, you know, there's a**  **9 lot of stuff in the IECC provisions that we**  **10 walked through that are very technical, so we**  **11 can reach out to you guys and ask questions**  **12 and receive answers as we go from the term**  **13 sheet.**  **14 So, you know, again I'm sure some of**  **15 the information you have provided has been**  **16 really great information, but after we leave**  **17 this and start writing things and taking the**  **18 term sheet, seeing what we come up with on it,**  **19 I'm sure we'll have questions and we'll get**  **20 back to you today.**  **21 And of course you'll have plenty of**  **22 time to comment on the final. But now I'd** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 like to suggest just to take a quick vote on**  **2 this and see if these use of O-values, where**  **3 we are. Take a temperature of that.**  **4 MR. RAMIREZ: Let's see a show of**  **5 thumbs with your acceptability of these Uo**  **6 values. Let's see the thumbs.**  **7 MR. HAGERMAN: Referring to which?**  **8 The --**  **9 MR. TOMPOS: I'm looking at the**  **10 screen right now. Are we saying we're doing**  **11 a different U-value for double and single? Is**  **12 that what we have, correct, up there?**  **13 MS. STARKEY: No.**  **14 MR. TOMPOS: Or are we averaging**  **15 those or --**  **16 MR. HAGERMAN: That's a great**  **17 question.**  **18 MR. UNGAR: Can I make a suggestion?**  **19 I don't think we're agreeing on standard**  **20 because we're not agreeing on a standard for**  **21 this number of regions. I think what we're**  **22 saying is the standard will be based on these** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 Uo values and we've yet to determine, you**  **2 know, what regions and what types of housing**  **3 may be in that standard. But whatever we do**  **4 will then merge these in order to come up with**  **5 the Uo values in the final standard.**  **6 MR. HAGERMAN: So, you know, I think**  **7 of it like this. We're making sausage here,**  **8 right, so we're slowly picking all the**  **9 ingredients that go in the sausage, right.**  **10 And of course as we put it through**  **11 the grinder and spit out our perfectly good**  **12 sausage, it's going to look like some of this**  **13 data up here but it's going to be filtered**  **14 through the final climate zone discussion,**  **15 through a followup discussion after we vote on**  **16 this on if we're doing single Uo values or**  **17 having two different use of O-values for**  **18 single and doubles.**  **19 It's just, you know, we need to**  **20 start making some decisions to then, you know,**  **21 can narrow everything that we have to**  **22 consider, right?** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MS. HOFFMAN: Lois?**  **2 MS. STARKEY: So what you're saying,**  **3 Joe, is that we are, your ask is for the group**  **4 to agree that this data is the best data, the**  **5 best ingredients to go in the sausage.**  **6 MR. HAGERMAN: That's exactly right.**  **7 Thank you. And I appreciate you using my bad**  **8 analogy.**  **9 MR. RAMIREZ: Mark?**  **10 MR. WEISS: I don't know how you**  **11 separate that determination from the cost**  **12 issue. I mean if someone wants to talk about**  **13 how you do that I'm certainly willing to**  **14 listen.**  **15 What are we voting on? I mean**  **16 you're voting on a number, on a value, but**  **17 that is tied to a cost impact. So I mean can**  **18 you clarify better what we're doing here from**  **19 that perspective?**  **20 MR. HAGERMAN: Yes. All the use of**  **21 O-values here were generated off the ten-year**  **22 residual cost information that was provided,** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 right? So these are all based on cost data**  **2 that's provided.**  **3 MR. WALKER: Would you like to see**  **4 that now?**  **5 MR. HAGERMAN: Yes, we can pull that**  **6 up. All these are positive or black, where we**  **7 say, you know, they're not showing up as**  **8 negatives in all the climates there except for**  **9 Miami. And where it is negative, in Miami**  **10 it's negative by $51. And this is a ten-year**  **11 with the residual.**  **12 So all the use of O-values are**  **13 predicated on, you know, that analysis that**  **14 has cost and construction and components all**  **15 factored in. And just to remind everybody,**  **16 they're all black except for Miami which is**  **17 negative.**  **18 I don't know how many units your**  **19 industry ships to Miami, but in all the**  **20 distillation of IECC climate zones to, you**  **21 know, less number of climate zones, it seems**  **22 like Miami, that 1A climate zone always gets** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 thrown out. So just a courtesy heads-up**  **2 that's what we routinely see.**  **3 So I wouldn't, I personally wouldn't**  **4 think that you'd make your vote on Miami**  **5 unless of course you're a manufacturer of**  **6 homes in Miami. But just something for you to**  **7 consider.**  **8 MR. UNGAR: And to clarify, I mean**  **9 we may or may not accept this analysis and we**  **10 haven't agreed that a ten-year life cycle**  **11 analysis with the residual and these seven**  **12 assumptions is the way to do it.**  **13 But it's we come up with a set of**  **14 numbers for which other than Miami it does**  **15 come up positive on this particular cost**  **16 effectiveness metric, but in the end we're**  **17 saying can we accept these numbers.**  **18 MR. LUBLINER: This is Mike**  **19 Lubliner.**  **20 MR. RAMIREZ: Go ahead, Michael.**  **21 MR. LUBLINER: Yes, I think on**  **22 Miami, I think that it's going to be positive** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 when you take into account any type of**  **2 heating, air conditioning downsizing, so I**  **3 wouldn't be too concerned.**  **4 Also we went ahead and modeled duct**  **5 work in the floor, and quite typically homes**  **6 get shipped to Miami and have their duct work**  **7 in the attic as I understand which would be**  **8 another conservatism. So I think we're good**  **9 here.**  **10 The one point I wanted to make**  **11 because I was kind of coming off the wheel**  **12 yesterday regarding the climate map. I want**  **13 to clarify what the IECC says.**  **14 Here you see that we have a good Uo.**  **15 I'm very happy with the Uo here that's shown**  **16 for a single and double for, say, Salem,**  **17 Oregon, which is 4C.**  **18 If you note in the standard, 4C is**  **19 treated like, is a marine 4 climate and it's**  **20 treated as a 5 climate zone. That's why it's**  **21 got the same Uo value here as the 5's and it**  **22 changes when you get to 4B and 4A.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 So I'm totally comfortable with**  **2 this, but what I wasn't comfortable with**  **3 yesterday and want to clarify was the map that**  **4 was provided which didn't make that**  **5 distinction.**  **6 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, and that's still**  **7 up in the air right now and I think we're**  **8 going to have a little bit more discussion on**  **9 that later. But no decision on the map or the**  **10 zone should be made today.**  **11 MR. LUBLINER: Yes, very good. I**  **12 just wanted to clarify. I'm good with this,**  **13 but I wasn't good with supplying the map to**  **14 it.**  **15 MR. RAMIREZ: Got you.**  **16 MR. UNGAR: So what we're saying**  **17 here is regardless of how we do a final map,**  **18 we will base it on 4C being a 10.59 Uo, which**  **19 will be -- okay.**  **20 MR. RAMIREZ: All right, so let's**  **21 see a show of thumbs if you're okay with these**  **22 ingredients. Anyone online with your thumbs** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 down?**  **2 All right, so Mark, do you want to**  **3 state why?**  **4 MR. WEISS: Given the concerns I**  **5 raised last time regarding the cost elements,**  **6 I think that to maintain consistencies that**  **7 incorporates those cost elements I have to**  **8 maintain the no vote from last time.**  **9 MR. RAMIREZ: Got you.**  **10 MR. HAGERMAN: Do you want to**  **11 comment?**  **12 MR. TOMPOS: I think once we get**  **13 below 0.060, I think we're going to run into**  **14 some problems with space in smaller homes.**  **15 So, you know, especially the 0.051, I think it**  **16 would be real difficult to meet some of those**  **17 requirements.**  **18 MR. HAGERMAN: Joe Hagerman. I**  **19 think that's a valid concern. When we looked**  **20 yesterday about how many units were shipped in**  **21 Climate Zones 7 and 8, I calculated background**  **22 a little. Worst case is four to five percent.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. TOMPOS: No, I know. And that's**  **2 why I'm sideways and not down.**  **3 MR. HAGERMAN: Right, so okay. So I**  **4 think, you know, obviously we have to have,**  **5 continue a further discussion of how we**  **6 distill these eight climate zones into**  **7 something more manageable. And, you know, my**  **8 personal, just --**  **9 MR. SCHNEIDER: This is Peter.**  **10 MR. HAGERMAN: Hold on. My personal**  **11 gut reaction is Miami sort of disappears and**  **12 Climate Zone 7 and 8 has to be dealt with.**  **13 And I appreciate anything below a 0.06 is**  **14 difficult, right? .059, you're kind of on the**  **15 edge there but it's doable, right?**  **16 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay, I just want to**  **17 make it clear that there is a no vote and the**  **18 group didn't reach consensus on this. I don't**  **19 want to cut off conversation, but I also don't**  **20 want that to get lost.**  **21 Lois, you're okay? Okay. Let's get**  **22 Mark and then Peter. Mark?** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. WEISS: Just wanted to briefly,**  **2 since David stated that so well I'd like to**  **3 glom on to his comments as well.**  **4 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay.**  **5 (Simultaneous speaking)**  **6 MR. HAGERMAN: I'm associating**  **7 myself with those remarks.**  **8 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. Peter?**  **9 MR. SCHNEIDER: I don't know if I**  **10 missed us revisiting this, but of course Uo**  **11 values are based on a Grade 1 insulation**  **12 installation. And so I'm just referencing**  **13 Table R402.411 and, you know, the inner**  **14 barrier insulation installation requirements**  **15 in 2015.**  **16 And I'm just wondering if this is**  **17 the time to revisit that. You know, clearly,**  **18 our manufacturers are not achieving a Grade 1**  **19 installation and these Uo values are based on**  **20 that. And so, you know, I sort of have a**  **21 sideways thumb because I just don't think that**  **22 these Uos actually reflect what's actually** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 being delivered to our customers.**  **2 MR. RAMIREZ: Peter, I think that**  **3 that was, and all the experts in the room**  **4 here, I think we covered that before when we**  **5 were talking about that insulation has to be**  **6 installed according to the specifications of**  **7 the manufacturer.**  **8 MR. HAGERMAN: This is Joe Hagerman.**  **9 Also, I think we did a sensitivity analysis**  **10 between Grade 1 and 2 that you can go back to**  **11 and that the energy penalty was not, I'm going**  **12 to say not significant. It was not huge.**  **13 That the larger determining factor was the air**  **14 envelope leakage, right, which we agreed was,**  **15 I think, 5, right?**  **16 MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, I would defer**  **17 to the experts in the room who spend time in**  **18 manufactured housing facilities, but I don't**  **19 think we're even talking about Grade 2 in our**  **20 facilities. We're talking about Grade 3. And**  **21 when I do the modeling on my end between Grade**  **22 3 and Grade 1 it's quite significant in** 

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### 1 regards to the overall U value. **2 And if I were to utilize Grade 3 3 overall effective R-values, you know, in my**  **4 assemblies when modeling homes, I wouldn't 5 have a manufactured home on a dealer lot in**  **6 the state that would meet the overall U-value 7 currently required by HUD, which would be the**  **8 actual, you know, graded assembly on site. 9 So I just, you know, again I just**  **10 wanted to bring it up. I ultimately don't 11 feel that these Uo values accurately reflect**  **12 what we're going to be seeing if we don't 13 require the same level of oversight and**  **14 quality assurance that the IECC 2015 requires 15 with Table R402.411.**  **16 MR. LUBLINER: This is Mike 17 Lubliner.**  **18 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, Michael. 19 MR. LUBLINER: I'd like to support**  **20 what Peter said, though I think we need to 21 kind of go forward. So perhaps what we could**  **22 do today, Joe, if you're up to this, is at**

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 some point do a sensitivity study that looks**  **2 at what the difference to the Uo is if you're**  **3 going ahead and grading it at 3, 2 or 1.**  **4 I think this is going to be a**  **5 critical issue for our enforcement work for**  **6 spin off. I too have been in factories, and**  **7 I would encourage you, Joe, or others that are**  **8 familiar with grading to evaluate randomly**  **9 what's out there and give it a grade.**  **10 But I think for right now we've got**  **11 to stay focused on the Uo. So as long as**  **12 there's some commitment to doing it in a**  **13 parametric analysis and what's the impact of**  **14 Uo based on the grading of insulation, I think**  **15 that will be a useful exercise to get towards**  **16 what Peter and my concern is and to move**  **17 forward with these U --**  **18 MR. HAGERMAN: Yes, this is Joe**  **19 Hagerman trying to move forward here. David**  **20 has his hand up so ask him what his question**  **21 is or comment. But, you know, Peter, you**  **22 bring up some good comments but, you know, if** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 a manufacturer is going to use Grade 3**  **2 insulation or, I'm sorry, the installation of**  **3 insulation with a Grade 3, it's going to be**  **4 hard for them to, you know, they're going to**  **5 have to do much more to meet these Uo values,**  **6 right? So that would not be a good move,**  **7 right?**  **8 MR. LUBLINER: This is Mike again.**  **9 Yes, I think this would be a discussion for**  **10 the enforcement group.**  **11 MR. HAGERMAN: Right.**  **12 MR. LUBLINER: But I would encourage**  **13 that parametric analysis to see what the**  **14 implication is for Uo as Peter's noted. Thank**  **15 you.**  **16 MR. HAGERMAN: David, did you have a**  **17 comment?**  **18 MR. TOMPOS: I just wanted somebody**  **19 to remind me where in the IECC it requires**  **20 Grade 1 insulation? Is there a section number**  **21 for that?**  **22 MR. LACEY: It's not specifically** 

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### 1 called out but -- **2 MR. TOMPOS: So it does not require 3 --**  **4 MR. RAMIREZ: It's just saying it 5 has to be installed.**  **6 MR. TOMPOS: Correct. So I don't 7 know why we're talking about grades.**  **8 MR. HAGERMAN: Yes, in our previous 9 we've talked about grades previously but**  **10 nothing we've voted on said we had to have a 11 Grade 1. So --**  **12 MR. TOMPOS: Okay, so we can move 13 on?**  **14 MR. HAGERMAN: -- you are correct. 15 MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, but I would**  **16 note that if you want to make a simple 17 definition of what's defined in that table**  **18 that is Grade 1 that they're defining. So 19 there's no mistake about it. If you look at**  **20 the requirements for Grade 1 installation 21 based on those guidelines then you're aligned**  **22 with what's in Table 402. So, you know, it's**

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 just schematics. Either we're referencing**  **2 this table or we're referencing Grade 1. I**  **3 see it as the same requirements.**  **4 MR. TOMPOS: Didn't we go through**  **5 this table and agree with what the language**  **6 should read?**  **7 MR. HAGERMAN: Right. I think we**  **8 can move on, guys. So Peter, you've made your**  **9 comments. It's noted.**  **10 MR. ROY: So moving on, I have just**  **11 two questions for Emanuel. Emanuel, your**  **12 costing, is that based on the type of, the**  **13 insulation costs? Is that based on the type**  **14 of labor that would achieve this level of**  **15 performance which, I guess, is Grade 1? I'm**  **16 assuming that it is internally consistent.**  **17 Your costing is consistent with the**  **18 performance, I'm assuming.**  **19 MR. LEVY: Right. That's right.**  **20 It's a very difficult shade that you're**  **21 painting, Rob, but what you're saying is**  **22 correct.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. HAGERMAN: Let's just keep in**  **2 mind too, you can achieve a use of O in this**  **3 chart by installing insulation per Grade 3.**  **4 You just have to put more in it, right. So**  **5 again it's not a wise move for a manufacturer.**  **6 So I don't know. But your comments are noted.**  **7 MR. LUBLINER: Yes, this is Mike**  **8 Lubliner. I think it's really important that**  **9 we got on the record that these costs from**  **10 Levy here assume a Grade 1. I think that's**  **11 all we really need right now.**  **12 I guess I have a question for HUD.**  **13 It would be, if you find that these homes do**  **14 not meet the Grade 1 and they've assumed it in**  **15 their Uo calculation, is there any**  **16 enforcement?**  **17 Is there a subpart I or is this just**  **18 going to be the status quo where this stuff**  **19 continues to happen the way we see it in the**  **20 factory now? Maybe we can take that into the**  **21 enforcement discussion later on.**  **22 MS. HOFFMAN: I think you're right.** 

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### 1 It does deal with something other than what **2 we're dealing with right at this moment. 3 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay, so let's do**  **4 this. Let's go ahead and take a break here. 5 Let's do ten minutes. And when we come back**  **6 I want to look at performance pass and see if 7 we can get some agreement on that.**  **8 MR. LEVY: Javier? 9 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes.**  **10 MR. LEVY: Do you have the map? 11 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, I do. Thank you.**  **12 MR. LEVY: Okay. 13 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay, let's do ten**  **14 minutes. 15 (Whereupon, the above-entitled**  **16 matter went off the record at 10:33 a.m. and 17 resumed at 10:44 a.m.)**  **18 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay, we're back on 19 the clock. And we're, Javier, do you want to**  **20 continue? 21 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, I was thinking**  **22 that we could discuss the performance pass,**

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 prescriptive, I'm sorry, compliance pass, yes,**  **2 and the prescriptive numbers here and see what**  **3 we could do to try and get approval on these**  **4 things.**  **5 And we might also have to have some**  **6 discussion on the Uo values. Are we doing it**  **7 for one number for everything, or one for**  **8 single and one for double or multiple**  **9 sections?**  **10 So let's start off with the**  **11 prescriptive numbers that are up here. And**  **12 these are the numbers that Emmanuel had**  **13 provided to us. Is there any considerable**  **14 heartburn, as in considerable meaning we can**  **15 probably get away with a little a little bit**  **16 of heartburn, right? But overall, how these**  **17 numbers look to folks.**  **18 MALE PARTICIPANT: Can you say it**  **19 again?**  **20 MR. LACEY: Yes, my only reservation**  **21 would be the having a lower SHGC, you know, a**  **22 25 SHGC and IECC's claim its own one through** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 three like we discussed yesterday. We don't**  **2 have to talk more about it, but that's my only**  **3 reservation.**  **4 MR. HAGERMAN: And you should**  **5 probably remind everybody once you factor in**  **6 the cost for the solar heating coefficients as**  **7 you're discussing on how it effects the ten**  **8 year with the residual and the IECC climate**  **9 Zones 2, 3, and 4. You should probably remind**  **10 everybody that there's still --**  **11 MR. LACEY: Yes, if they didn't have**  **12 that much of an impact, even when you just**  **13 looked at the cost side of the equation**  **14 without considering the energy savings. So I**  **15 just wanted to remind folks. I don't want**  **16 SHGC to get lost in the shuffle here when**  **17 we're talking just about Uo.**  **18 And I guess on a related note, while**  **19 we're talking about the prescriptive on the**  **20 Uo, I would hope we would include a notation**  **21 in there that if you go down that pathway,**  **22 that you also meet the solar heat gain** 

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### 1 coefficient requirements. **2 Currently in that code, there is not 3 an SHGC requirement. I think it's reasonable**  **4 to require the same SHGC requirement from one 5 compliance option to the other.**  **6 MR. HAGERMAN: The way you talk 7 about modifying those numbers right now, I**  **8 mean, looking at this chart right here, what 9 would be put in, which zones would you change**  **10 for the SHGC numbers and what would be -- 11 MR. LACEY: IECC Zones 1, 2, and 3.**  **12 That would make it consistent with the IECC. 13 MR. HAGERMAN: So Joe Hagerman, DOE.**  **14 So what Eric is asking for is amendment of 15 this table, and I would assume the double**  **16 section table, too. In IECC Zones 1, 2, and 17 3, under the glazing column that says solar**  **18 heat gain coefficient, that it would read 19 instead of 0.33 it would be 0.25 for Zone 1,**  **20 0.25 in Zone 2 and 0.25 in Zone 3. 21 And just a reminder, that was still**  **22 in the life cycle analysis, I'm sorry, in the**

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### 1 ten year payback with the residual analysis, **2 if you factored in just the costs and no 3 interview segments from that, it was still in**  **4 the black. 5 And also to remind everybody that**  **6 PNNL analysis did the worst case scenario, so 7 it did not directly, so solar heat gain**  **8 coefficient didn't necessarily benefit the 9 energy simulations because they put all the**  **10 glazing equally across all sizes, the size of 11 the house which if you just, you know, if you**  **12 think about your products that you ship, that 13 may not be the case. Glazing may be oriented**  **14 east and west, which actually would be the 15 worst case.**  **16 MS. HOFFMAN: If these, the quick 17 question, I'm Eileen Hoffman. If the 0.25 is**  **18 put in those boxes, does it change the value? 19 MR. LACEY: It doesn't change the Uo**  **20 value because that's not affected by it. But 21 it would change the cooling energy use, the**  **22 energy costs basically for the home.**

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. LUBLINER: This is Mike**  **2 Lubliner.**  **3 MR. LACEY: Yes, Michael.**  **4 MR. LUBLINER: Yes, I totally**  **5 support wherever we've gone. This is**  **6 consistent with the KISS Luby direction. I**  **7 think that because we have encountered a**  **8 savings towards downtime in air conditioning,**  **9 which could be considerable in the hotter**  **10 climates, the first cost savings associated**  **11 with the smaller air conditioning, that that**  **12 in and of itself will continue to keep this in**  **13 the black, make it even more into the black.**  **14 Thank you.**  **15 MR. EZZO: This is Mark Ezzo. While**  **16 we're doing the heat gain coefficient numbers,**  **17 can we also look at 4, 5, 6, 7, and 8 and get**  **18 rid of the 0.33 for those because in those**  **19 zones, the IECC doesn't require anything that**  **20 stringent.**  **21 So for instance, IECC says for Zone**  **22 4 you can have a 0.40 heat gain coefficient.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 And for 5, 6, 7, and 8, there's no**  **2 requirement. So I would ask that if we're**  **3 going to go and put 0.25 for 1, 2, and 3 that**  **4 aligns with the IECC, that we would do**  **5 likewise for 4, 5, 6, 7, and 8.**  **6 MR. LUBLINER: Mike Lubliner. I**  **7 totally support that, as well. I think that**  **8 in effect, you'll probably accuse one of these**  **9 vinyl frames as low-E, yet better than 0.4 in**  **10 those areas.**  **11 But I don't think you should be**  **12 required to. There should be flexibility. I**  **13 would defer to Eric on that, though. But I**  **14 support what Mark said.**  **15 MR. LACEY: Yes, I think those**  **16 numbers are in there. But based on the**  **17 products that were available and that were**  **18 being used, and all of them were 33 and**  **19 better. And so like Luby said, I think you'll**  **20 probably end up with a window that meets or**  **21 exceeds that value anyway.**  **22 You know, you could remove the** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 requirement from climate Zones 5 through 8,**  **2 and I wouldn't have a problem with that.**  **3 Climate Zone 4 is actually a 0.40 in the IECC.**  **4 It has been. So yes, you would have a 0.25 in**  **5 climate Zones 1, 2, and 3, and then a 0.40 in**  **6 climate Zone 4 if you wanted to be really**  **7 technical.**  **8 MR. LUTER: This is Rob Luter. I**  **9 would also support aligning the solar heat**  **10 gains in the northern zones with the ICC. But**  **11 I will say that the low-E that is typically**  **12 used to achieve the U values up there brings**  **13 along the solar heat gain performance for the**  **14 ride.**  **15 So in reality, you're going to have**  **16 the lower solar heat gains up there whether**  **17 it's required or not.**  **18 MR. HAGERMAN: So this is Joe**  **19 Hagerman. It sounds like there's a lot of**  **20 people rallying behind this proposal. Could**  **21 maybe Eric or Mark Ezzo, could you read**  **22 through the values again just so we're clear** 

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### 1 what the proposal is? **2 MR. LACEY: Yes. I mean, I can walk 3 through it. So going in order, climate Zone**  **4 1 SHGC is 0.25. Climate Zone 2, 0.25. 5 Climate Zone 3, 0.25. Climate Zone 4, 0.40.**  **6 And climate Zone 5, n/r, you know, no 7 requirement. Climate Zone 6, no requirement.**  **8 Climate Zones 7 and 8, no requirement. Is 9 that clear?**  **10 MR. EZZO: That's correct. This is 11 Mark.**  **12 MR. ROY: Clarifying question. What 13 about Marines, is there a distinction there?**  **14 MR. LACEY: No. The Marines get 15 lumped according to the table here. So**  **16 climate Zone Marine 4 would be technically at 17 kind of a climate Zone 5, so it would not be**  **18 an SHGC requirement. Is that your 19 understanding, Luby, that Marine 4 would not**  **20 have an SHGC requirement? 21 MR. LUBLINER: Yes. I don't know**  **22 that you would need one there. Certainly**

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### 1 Marines -- I'll defer to the manufacturers. **2 MR. RAMIREZ: So let's take away the 3 single versus double.**  **4 MR. HAGERMAN: There's somebody on 5 the phone that's making a lot of static. I**  **6 don't know if anybody -- 7 FEMALE PARTICIPANT: Michael Wade.**  **8 MR. HAGERMAN: Michael Wade, you're 9 making a lot of static.**  **10 MALE PARTICIPANT: Can you mute for 11 us?**  **12 MR. WADE: I'll mute it. 13 MR. HAGERMAN: Okay, thank you.**  **14 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay, so taking away 15 the issue of single versus double section, we**  **16 can handle that one separate. 17 MR. LACEY: Okay, that's fine. I'm**  **18 going to pose the same thing for both. 19 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, no, but yes. And**  **20 these numbers would be for single or double. 21 MR. LACEY: Okay.**  **22 MR. RAMIREZ: I'm just talking about**

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 the Uo values.**  **2 MR. LACEY: Oh yes, this is separate**  **3 from the Uo values.**  **4 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes. Okay, so just**  **5 the chart taking away the single section or**  **6 double section piece, are these the numbers**  **7 for a prescriptive path?**  **8 MR. LACEY: We should probably**  **9 scroll up and let everybody see the double**  **10 section numbers just so they can remind**  **11 themselves. And so again, the solar heat gain**  **12 coefficient column here would be the same as**  **13 what's been proposed, the 0.25, 0.40 and no**  **14 requirement?**  **15 MR. UNGAR: All the prescriptive**  **16 numbers are the same for single and double**  **17 section, aren't they?**  **18 MS. HOFFMAN: Yes.**  **19 MR. UNGAR: Yes, and so --**  **20 (Simultaneous speaking)**  **21 MR. RAMIREZ: So these numbers we**  **22 discuss out windows with transfer, double as** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 well.**  **2 MR. HAGERMAN: Just remind**  **3 everybody.**  **4 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. Yes, so let's**  **5 see a show of thumbs if we're okay with these**  **6 numbers.**  **7 MR. HAGERMAN: With the**  **8 modifications with the solar heat gain**  **9 coefficients of course.**  **10 MR. RAMIREZ: Thank you. Anyone on**  **11 line with their thumbs down?**  **12 MR. HAGERMAN: And can you unmute**  **13 Michael Wade just in case he has a problem?**  **14 MR. RAMIREZ: Anyone on the line**  **15 with your thumbs down?**  **16 MR. EZZO: This is Mark. My thumb's**  **17 up, but just want to clarify that those XPS in**  **18 parentheses numbers go away.**  **19 MR. HAGERMAN: Thank you, Mark.**  **20 Absolutely.**  **21 MR. EZZO: Just to be clear.**  **22 MR. HAGERMAN: Yes, that XPS is just** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 a footnote that we will remove.**  **2 MS. HOFFMAN: And next time, we'll**  **3 have this revised.**  **4 MR. HAGERMAN: Yes. We'll of**  **5 course, before the next meeting we're going to**  **6 revise this and start cobbling together a**  **7 terms sheet, right, which you will see all**  **8 this reflected.**  **9 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay.**  **10 MR. LUBLINER: This is Mike**  **11 Lubliner.**  **12 MR. RAMIREZ: Michael, is it**  **13 regarding your thumb, your vote?**  **14 MR. LUBLINER: No, it's a comment on**  **15 Mark's comment.**  **16 MS. HOFFMAN: Let's wait then.**  **17 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, so I just wanted**  **18 to note that there was one no vote. Mark, is**  **19 it costing issues?**  **20 MR. WEISS: Again, it's derivative**  **21 of my prior.**  **22 MR. RAMIREZ: Got you, okay. Noted.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 So this was approved by consensus.**  **2 MR. HAGERMAN: Unless, are there any**  **3 no votes on the phone?**  **4 MS. HOFFMAN: No.**  **5 MR. HAGERMAN: Okay, thank you. Now**  **6 Mike Lubliner, you had a comment about**  **7 something?**  **8 MR. LUBLINER: Yes, just a request.**  **9 The XPS thing is still, I still want to make**  **10 sure we're clear on it, I was told it was**  **11 getting rid of it like Mark Ezzo said. But**  **12 I'm just wondering, we talked before about the**  **13 cost data reflectiveness. Are we also going**  **14 to be, if we do any analysis, reducing the**  **15 cost data so it's not reflective of this XPS?**  **16 MR. LEVY: This is Emmanuel. That**  **17 is correct, Michael.**  **18 MR. LUBLINER: Thanks, Emmanuel.**  **19 MR. UNGAR: I have one more**  **20 clarification on this. I assume, I'm guessing**  **21 we want to end up with these exact regions**  **22 that are going to have to then do prescriptive** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 packages that will be derived from these.**  **2 But it won't be as obvious how to**  **3 compromise as it is in a Uo where you can just**  **4 average the number if you're not going to do**  **5 something else to come up with packages that**  **6 are comparable to these for whatever regions**  **7 we end up using.**  **8 MR. HAGERMAN: Absolutely. So we're**  **9 going to have to get in the region discussion**  **10 next, which we had some maps drawn up. But**  **11 let me just also remind you that there's some**  **12 natural divisions occurring here.**  **13 And I think they're consistent,**  **14 right, the Uo values naturally divide off in**  **15 groupings of climate Zone one and two, three**  **16 and four, five and six. And I think the**  **17 prescriptive requirements are the same too**  **18 just naturally, right?**  **19 So not only the Uo values are the**  **20 same, but also the prescriptive packages as**  **21 agreed are the same. So just keep that in**  **22 mind. Right, so hopefully, knock on wood, I'm** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 hoping that it's, nothing's been easy here,**  **2 but I'm hoping that might be a little bit**  **3 easier for us.**  **4 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay, now Matthew, can**  **5 I shrink that just a little bit so I can see**  **6 both the single and double? Okay, so maybe**  **7 just a little bit bigger.**  **8 So the next one I want to talk about**  **9 is are we having a single U value number for,**  **10 a single section for single and double, or are**  **11 we having separate ones for single and**  **12 multiple?**  **13 MR. HAGERMAN: So the question is**  **14 are we having one table with one Uo value, or**  **15 are we having two tables, one Uo value table**  **16 for single sections and one Uo value for**  **17 double sections.**  **18 And I would just like to call**  **19 everybody's attention to, you know, in IECC**  **20 climate Zone 2 for example, yes, so there's a**  **21 big difference here between, well not big**  **22 difference, but you know, the single sections** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 in my professional opinion are going to be a**  **2 little more difficult, right, because they**  **3 have a more aggressive Uo value.**  **4 No, I'm sorry, they're going to be,**  **5 right now their Uo value is a little bit more**  **6 lenient than the double wide sections, right,**  **7 so it's going to be a little bit easier for**  **8 them to meet.**  **9 If we come up with a composite Uo**  **10 value to represent both singles and doubles,**  **11 I think we're going to be disadvantaging the**  **12 single sections, making them a little bit more**  **13 difficult to read the efficiency levels. That**  **14 is if we average the numbers, right?**  **15 So just keep that in mind. You**  **16 know, I would like to hear from the**  **17 manufacturers. I don't think the**  **18 manufacturers would have a hard time with**  **19 dealing with two different tables of Uo**  **20 values. But you all should comment.**  **21 MR. SANTANA: This is Manny with**  **22 Cavco. You know, when you brought this up** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 yesterday, I didn't respond because I was**  **2 trying to work through what impact it would**  **3 have.**  **4 And you know, having had a day to**  **5 think about it, I don't know that it's going**  **6 to be a detriment having different values for**  **7 singles and the double one. I don't think**  **8 it's going to be a problem.**  **9 You know, it's going to be a bigger**  **10 chart in the code, but I don't see how it's**  **11 going to have any practical application,**  **12 "negative" application.**  **13 MR. HAGERMAN: Yes, so I appreciate**  **14 that, Manny.**  **15 MR. KESSLER: This is Bert, Palm**  **16 Harbor. I think I mentioned that same thing**  **17 yesterday. I don't know how you would control**  **18 or be able to control the difference except**  **19 perhaps the blown insulation thickness in the**  **20 roof. So I don't see where that's going to do**  **21 us any good.**  **22 MR. WADE: This is Michael Wade,** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 Cavalier Homes. I think we could work with**  **2 it.**  **3 MR. RAMIREZ: Work with two?**  **4 MR. HAGERMAN: I just, so I'm really**  **5 sensitive to Mark Weiss' comments about the**  **6 affordability. If we move, if we have to take**  **7 an averaging of the numbers as an example,**  **8 right, I think we disenfranchised the single**  **9 sections and we make them actually a little**  **10 bit less affordable, to be honest with you.**  **11 So that's why I think having two**  **12 tables helps us deal with the affordability**  **13 issue. But go ahead.**  **14 MR. UNGAR: This is Lowell. I have**  **15 a question for Bert. The different Uo values**  **16 used exactly the same prescriptive**  **17 requirements. If I understand this, if you**  **18 want to do the same thing in a single wide as**  **19 in a double wide, you end up with different Uo**  **20 values.**  **21 And so this would allow, if you have**  **22 the separate Uo values, you have the same** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 blown insulation in the roof, whereas if you**  **2 have the same Uo requirement for single wide**  **3 and double wide, you would then have to do**  **4 something different if you wanted to meet**  **5 exactly the standard, unless you wanted of**  **6 course to go above the standard for the single**  **7 wides. And Bert, do you have some other**  **8 understanding of that?**  **9 MR. LUBLINER: That's my**  **10 understanding, Mike Lubliner.**  **11 MR. LEVY: This is Emmanuel. I**  **12 would like to interject a point here. If you**  **13 simply took the average, which is what the**  **14 other option is, the variation from single or**  **15 multi to the average is very small. It's kind**  **16 of in the noise.**  **17 It's less than a change in an**  **18 insulation value. And I think if you look at**  **19 the package at Page 7 that we built for the**  **20 Uos, you'll notice that the packages**  **21 themselves come in a little bit lower than the**  **22 target Uo values.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 So as a practical matter, you could**  **2 have separate tables. I don't think it**  **3 matters that much. But I think you lose very**  **4 little if you take an average. But again, I'm**  **5 kind of neutral on this decision.**  **6 I will make one other point, that**  **7 the math that you're about to see makes some**  **8 more accommodation to the single section**  **9 homes, and I'll explain that when we get**  **10 there.**  **11 But I think that's really the**  **12 salient point that we're talking about here,**  **13 which is how do we recognize the fact that**  **14 single sections should have a little bit more**  **15 accommodation because they tend to be more**  **16 affordable.**  **17 MR. RAMIREZ: All right, let's get**  **18 Lowell, Lois, and then Mark.**  **19 MR. UNGAR: And I just had a**  **20 question. I thought the Uo values we were**  **21 dealing with were exactly from the packages,**  **22 and you just said they are not the same. I** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 just was confused by that.**  **2 MR. LEVY: If you look on Page 7,**  **3 Lowell, you'll see what I'm talking about.**  **4 This is where we're eventually going with the**  **5 question you asked earlier.**  **6 MR. UNGAR: I understand for Page 7.**  **7 But I'm sorry, but what we just approved was**  **8 Page 5 not Page 7. So on Page 5, which is**  **9 what we just approved, those are the Uo values**  **10 correspond exactly with the packages, right?**  **11 MR. LEVY: That's correct.**  **12 MR. HAGERMAN: Yes, I would suggest**  **13 just as a group since we've approved the Page**  **14 5 Uo values, as we go forward, we don't**  **15 deviate from the Uo values that we've already**  **16 approved, right, just so we don't confuse**  **17 people.**  **18 Somebody else had a comment about, I**  **19 think Mark, you had your hand up about the two**  **20 numbers versus the one composite number?**  **21 MR. WEISS: Yes, I did.**  **22 MS. HOFFMAN: Go ahead, go ahead.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. WEISS: No, I appreciate your**  **2 comments and the concern you stated, Joe. And**  **3 it goes back to what I was talking about**  **4 yesterday which is this constant tension**  **5 between fine tuning on the one hand and**  **6 uniformity on the other, driving**  **7 affordability.**  **8 It's an interesting issue. You**  **9 know, I'll have to bring it to our folks and**  **10 see what they say.**  **11 MR. HAGERMAN: I would say to**  **12 Emmanuel's comments, I know that the averaging**  **13 is just a small little difference. I just**  **14 worry about the unintended consequences of**  **15 that. That's why I would prefer to have the**  **16 two tables with the difference just clearly**  **17 articulated rather than the averaging. But**  **18 Lois?**  **19 MR. WEISS: Could I just say one**  **20 thing I forgot to mention? I had mentioned**  **21 before, and again, as you get into smaller and**  **22 smaller manufacturers, you have manufacturers** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 dealing with niche markets. And so it might**  **2 benefit potentially from what you're talking**  **3 about. So we'll check on that.**  **4 MR. RAMIREZ: Lois? And then we'll**  **5 get you, Mike, right after Lois.**  **6 MS. STARKEY: Yes, I just, I think I**  **7 maybe need to look at it a little more to be**  **8 more comfortable with it.**  **9 But I think, you know, what Joe is**  **10 saying on the single sections, you really get**  **11 a better and more accurate, you know, it**  **12 allows you to really make the argument that it**  **13 is more affordable, that the single section is**  **14 going to be more affordable.**  **15 So I think it addresses that**  **16 argument of affordability. So I guess it**  **17 would be a question of how, what impact**  **18 having, you know, actual impact on the table**  **19 would have in the factory in the building**  **20 process. And I would leave that up to the**  **21 manufacturers.**  **22 I'm hearing that that's not** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 necessarily, you know, you look at a table and**  **2 you say okay, the single section needs this**  **3 and I can't see any downside in terms of**  **4 confusion or difficulty in building**  **5 methodology. But correct me if I'm wrong.**  **6 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. Michael?**  **7 MR. LUBLINER: Yes, I totally agree**  **8 with Lois. I think it provides flexibility to**  **9 have both in there for the manufacturers. And**  **10 I think it does get to the affordability issue**  **11 that's been hanging over our heads this whole**  **12 time.**  **13 So I'm wondering, Mark, did you get**  **14 to the direction of addressing some of your**  **15 affordability issues, at least associated with**  **16 the single wide.**  **17 MR. WEISS: Yes, I mean, it**  **18 certainly impacts that. And we'll follow up**  **19 on it and see what we can get. I had my hand**  **20 up to recognize you.**  **21 MR. MENDLEN: Yes, the only comment**  **22 I have is of you're going to go with two** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 charts, the single and the double, then you**  **2 ought to make that multiple section because**  **3 there are a wide variety of multiple sections.**  **4 MR. HAGERMAN: That's a good**  **5 comment. Lois actually brought that up over**  **6 the break, that just for everybody, the Uo**  **7 columns there, Row 2 F and G should read Uo**  **8 single section, Uo multi section. I would go**  **9 ahead and make that change.**  **10 MR. LACEY: This is Eric from RICA.**  **11 As you can probably guess, I would like to go**  **12 as efficiently as we can with the Uo values**  **13 because there's a lot more flexibility built**  **14 in here. You know, I know that we've modeled**  **15 it, and a lot of good modeling, by the way.**  **16 You modeled it based on the**  **17 prescriptive table, but it's only been modeled**  **18 to one design with a specific raising area**  **19 percentage and specific wall construction and**  **20 dimensions and everything.**  **21 So I tend to agree that, you know,**  **22 picking one number is probably close enough.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 I'm not too concerned about setting the two**  **2 numbers. But if the industry would rather**  **3 have two numbers, we can have two numbers.**  **4 I think that making one window a**  **5 little bit smaller or a little bit larger**  **6 would probably account or, you know, changing**  **7 the wall dimension just a little bit might**  **8 account for the difference between the two.**  **9 But you know, I would prefer going**  **10 with the more stringent number wherever we can**  **11 here because there is going to be a lot more**  **12 flexibility and a little more leniency I think**  **13 in the trade off pass.**  **14 So I think if you're concerned about**  **15 costs or concerned about meeting these**  **16 numbers, understand that there's a tremendous**  **17 amount of flexibility in the Uo approach.**  **18 MR. RAMIREZ: And when you say Uo**  **19 approach --**  **20 MR. HAGERMAN: I think he means when**  **21 you follow the performance.**  **22 MR. LACEY: Performance or new** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 compliance.**  **2 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, and I want to**  **3 talk about that next as far as are there other**  **4 compliance paths that we can reach agreement**  **5 on. Lois?**  **6 MR. LUBLINER: This is Mike Lubliner**  **7 again.**  **8 MR. HAGERMAN: Hold on.**  **9 MS. STARKEY: I just have a question**  **10 for Eric, a clarification.**  **11 MR. RAMIREZ: Go ahead, and then**  **12 we'll get to you, Michael. Sorry.**  **13 MS. STARKEY: So are you saying that**  **14 to meet a performance path for two different**  **15 Uos would be more problematic, the chart if it**  **16 was --**  **17 MR. LACEY: No, I'm saying, you**  **18 know, we're looking at several decimal places**  **19 down here. And if the industry wants two**  **20 different Uos, that's fine if that works**  **21 better for you.**  **22 I'm just saying that this many** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 decimal places down, what we're talking about**  **2 is all the analyses, unless I'm mistaken, all**  **3 the analyses have been done on one design.**  **4 And that another design is going to have a**  **5 different Uo, you know, with a different width**  **6 or a different length.**  **7 And so, you know, I wouldn't get too**  **8 wrapped around the axle on these. Recognizing**  **9 though, I would prefer keeping those Uo**  **10 numbers down as low as we can, low meaning**  **11 more efficient, because there is more**  **12 flexibility.**  **13 And you know, you could look at this**  **14 house design, and I'm sure an engineer could**  **15 take a look at it and say I bet if I change**  **16 the dimension this way, I could bump the Uo**  **17 number down significantly and I could skimp**  **18 here in the insulation or there in the**  **19 insulation.**  **20 So the efficiency person in me says**  **21 let's keep it stringent here, but the**  **22 compromise person in me says, you know, I** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 don't know that you're saving that much by**  **2 moving the decimal.**  **3 MR. HAGERMAN: Joe Hagerman, DOE.**  **4 I'm just worried about the affordability**  **5 issue. And particularly in the case if you**  **6 made a single section in Houston, be it a**  **7 0.084, which I don't disagree with everything**  **8 you said, you could reduce the amount of**  **9 windows the low income family could have.**  **10 Right, I just don't think that's**  **11 necessarily fair or just. It's much easier to**  **12 just give and recognize that geometrically**  **13 they're different, and you know, spatially in**  **14 three dimensions are different. Just give it**  **15 a 0.08 setting --**  **16 MR. SANTANA: Manny with Cavco.**  **17 MR. RAMIREZ: Manny, hold on one**  **18 second. Let me get Michael, David, and then**  **19 Manny. Michael?**  **20 MR. LUBLINER: Yes, I want to speak**  **21 to, you know, I was saying that I agree with**  **22 having two levels if this is going to be** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 something that the manufacturers acknowledge**  **2 is addressing affordability.**  **3 If Mark comes back and says it's**  **4 not, then I think I'm in Lowell's camp, I**  **5 think we should be using the more stringent**  **6 one. I'll point out that the ten year data**  **7 that I have for the northwest shows 19,000**  **8 double section homes, 6,000 triple section**  **9 homes, and 1,500 single section homes.**  **10 So, you know, I do think that we**  **11 haven't even considered multi section homes,**  **12 triple section homes here and the implications**  **13 for even greater energy savings from them.**  **14 So again, unless there's some**  **15 concessions from the industry that this is**  **16 going to help solve the affordability issue,**  **17 I'm back to using the more stringent one.**  **18 Thank you.**  **19 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay, David and then**  **20 Manny.**  **21 MR. TOMPOS: Well, you know,**  **22 according to Eric, and I think I agree with** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 him, we're kind of in the, you know, we're at**  **2 the third decimal place where it's I don't**  **3 think the energy savings between the two is**  **4 that big of a deal.**  **5 Although, you know, as I've**  **6 expressed before, I'm getting a little**  **7 concerned as we drop below that 0.06 number in**  **8 meeting some of the requirements on some of**  **9 the smaller houses.**  **10 You know, if there's not that big of**  **11 a deal and to support affordability, I**  **12 recommend we just use the single section**  **13 values and have one section to simplify**  **14 things.**  **15 MS. HOFFMAN: You're saying single**  **16 for all --**  **17 MR. TOMPOS: Yes, single for**  **18 everything. I mean, we barely have a**  **19 difference between the two, and I'm saying,**  **20 you know, we need to keep affordability in**  **21 mind.**  **22 And I think getting a lot, like I've** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 said before, going a lot below 0.06 is going**  **2 to be, there's going to be some issues there.**  **3 So I know we've heard several cases that we**  **4 used more stringent. I'm supporting using the**  **5 slightly less stringent values.**  **6 MR. RAMIREZ: Got you. Okay, Manny.**  **7 (Simultaneous speaking)**  **8 MR. SANTANA: Manny with Cavco.**  **9 We've touched on the differences between 0.07**  **10 or 0.087 and 0.084 and whether we should**  **11 average it or whether we should go with the**  **12 lowest.**  **13 You know, I just like to remind**  **14 everybody that we're talking about going down**  **15 to 0.07 and 0.04 when it is currently 0.116.**  **16 You know, and we're talking about going down**  **17 to 0.07 when it's really 0.096.**  **18 I mean, these numbers are going to**  **19 have a huge impact in all of those areas. And**  **20 I think, you know, why don't we take the one**  **21 or average out the two and find the lower U**  **22 values for, you know, the lowest most** 

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### 1 efficient U value. **2 You know, this is going to be a huge 3 significant jump in energy efficiency as it**  **4 is. A much greater leap than any year or any 5 code change of the IACC makes from one cycle**  **6 to the next. 7 You know, we could keep that in**  **8 mind. It's going to have a huge impact. And 9 you know, and also it doesn't seem that**  **10 anybody has any strong opposition to keeping 11 two or going to one.**  **12 You know, let's just vote and see 13 how it turns out.**  **14 MR. RAMIREZ: Well, the question -- 15 (Simultaneous speaking)**  **16 MR. RAMIREZ: I'm sorry. Mark? 17 MALE PARTICIPANT: Mike.**  **18 MR. RAMIREZ: Mike? Mike, you had a 19 question.**  **20 MR. LUBLINER: Is the line open? 21 MALE PARTICIPANT: Yes.**  **22 MR. LUBLINER: And I agree it's a**

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 big jump, Manny. The reason for that is that**  **2 HUD has not updated these standards since**  **3 1994. And so I think that there is a good**  **4 justification economically to the consumer**  **5 that we've been working on that shows that**  **6 these numbers are cost effective to the**  **7 consumer, and that's why it's such a big jump.**  **8 And as I said earlier, you know, the**  **9 only people that like change are babies with**  **10 dirty diapers. And I think at this point,**  **11 we've got to hunker down, we've got to decide**  **12 whether these are technically feasible.**  **13 And if Dave Tompos has some**  **14 technical issues, I thought we flushed all**  **15 those out already in these costing of**  **16 achieving lower values than 0.060.**  **17 So you know, at this point I think**  **18 let's go ahead. I'm good for a vote, but I**  **19 would like to hear back from Mark Weiss as to**  **20 whether or not he supports and acknowledges**  **21 that this is an attempt to try to address**  **22 affordability.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 As I said, if he doesn't, then I'm**  **2 going to vote in favor of using the most**  **3 stringent ones here.**  **4 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay, Keith?**  **5 MR. DENNIS: Yes, I mean, I'm in the**  **6 camp with the affordability thing here, and I**  **7 think it does go towards affordability if it's**  **8 important that people do it. And I don't**  **9 think, you know, a couple of words that people**  **10 in D.C. disagreeing is a reason to vote one**  **11 way or another. I have to kind of bat that**  **12 issue.**  **13 But you know, somebody was saying**  **14 there's a small amount of these things**  **15 shipped. This is a very small difference, it**  **16 could mean an increase in price.**  **17 And there are other places**  **18 nationally to get energy savings that we have**  **19 people spending all kinds of energy with money**  **20 doing all kinds of things, driving around in**  **21 Hummers, going to water parks.**  **22 These guys are trying to get a home.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 Like, I think we need to be realistic about**  **2 what we're actually doing here. You know,**  **3 we're a bunch of people in D.C. making**  **4 decisions on what people are buying for a**  **5 house.**  **6 I think this is a good example of,**  **7 you know, pushing the limits a little too far,**  **8 and let's not get kind of crazy about it.**  **9 MS. HOFFMAN: And your point is?**  **10 MR. DENNIS: My point is let's not**  **11 go too far with this. And I think that, you**  **12 know, it's good for a big home, but it makes**  **13 a small home a little bit harder to get.**  **14 Let's not, just let's not go there. Let's**  **15 just give some leeway.**  **16 MR. RAMIREZ: Well let me, because**  **17 it still, as a facilitator you're saying let's**  **18 vote. On what, right?**  **19 MR. HAGERMAN: Can we just vote on**  **20 two tables and see what the temperature is**  **21 with two tables, because I think --**  **22 MR. LEVY: Before we do that, can I** 

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### 1 just make one comment? **2 MR. HAGERMAN: -- physically 3 addresses Mark's affordability problems, or**  **4 issues. But go ahead, Emmanuel. And then 5 also Lowell has his hand up.**  **6 MR. LEVY: I just want to echo 7 something that Eric said earlier, which is**  **8 that we made a set of assumptions in putting 9 these tables together.**  **10 And one of the assumptions was that 11 all the houses had 12 percent window area.**  **12 The truth is that single section homes, a lot 13 of particularly the affordable ones have less**  **14 glazing area. 15 So if we had simply assumed that**  **16 single homes, single section homes at 11.5 17 percent and multi section 12.5 percent, the**  **18 difference between these zero values would 19 have gone away. So it's an artifact somewhat**  **20 of our assumptions which are based upon 21 experience and not hard data.**  **22 And the second thing I wanted to --**

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 and so I'm making a case for combining them as**  **2 an average because that's probably more**  **3 reflective of how they'll be built anyway.**  **4 And the second thing is for many of**  **5 these cases, we're arguing over 0.001**  **6 difference, which is not even going to show up**  **7 in terms of compliance.**  **8 So I think if it was a larger**  **9 difference, I would say we would have a**  **10 reasonable reason for having this debate but**  **11 with a small difference, particularly when you**  **12 take the averages. Doesn't make any sense.**  **13 That's my take on it.**  **14 MR. RAMIREZ: Michael?**  **15 MR. LUBLINER: Yes, so I have kind**  **16 of the average glazing percentage of core area**  **17 for the last ten years from the northwest.**  **18 And what is showing is the single wides are 12**  **19 percent, they're the highest. The multi**  **20 section are at 8.4 and the triple section are**  **21 at 10.7.**  **22 MR. RAMIREZ: So I think what you're** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 saying is, what Emmanuel was saying was**  **2 accurate?**  **3 MR. LUBLINER: At least my data**  **4 suggests it's 12 percent for singles.**  **5 MR. LEVY: And Michael, I want to**  **6 make just make the case that I made before**  **7 which is that the Northwest is a different**  **8 market.**  **9 And if you look, if you really look**  **10 at the heart of the industry which is in the**  **11 southeast, it's a different kind of market**  **12 than what your experiences were.**  **13 MR. RAMIREZ: So --**  **14 MR. LUBLINER: I agree with that.**  **15 Somebody said we didn't have data. I just**  **16 wanted to share the data I have.**  **17 MR. RAMIREZ: If I understand**  **18 correctly, the builders don't really have an**  **19 issue with trying to do the two paths, that if**  **20 that's what it is, it should be fairly easy to**  **21 accommodate the two different numbers.**  **22 Let's get consensus on the two** 

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### 1 different numbers that are up on the screen **2 right now. So let's see a show of thumbs for 3 the two different single section, multi**  **4 section. 5 MR. HAGERMAN: In other words, two**  **6 tables. 7 MR. RAMIREZ: Two tables.**  **8 MR. SCHNEIDER: This is Peter. I'm 9 going to stick with just the multi section Uo**  **10 value. 11 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay, so that's a no**  **12 vote then. So anyone else on line with a no? 13 So we have Peter, David, and Mark. Mark, you**  **14 want to -- 15 MR. WEISS: Yes. Again, this is**  **16 derivative of the cost issue. And without 17 prejudice to be following up on the single,**  **18 you know, versus double and two table matter. 19 MR. RAMIREZ: David?**  **20 MR. TOMPOS: I'm just trying to keep 21 simplicity and I'm not going to change**  **22 anything from going with the single section**

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 values. I think we're close enough and I**  **2 don't see why we can't keep affordability by**  **3 giving just a little bit.**  **4 MR. WEISS: And that would resolve**  **5 the issue you brought up.**  **6 MS. STARKEY: I guess I would like**  **7 to hear whether or not the average, taking an**  **8 average would be preferable versus having two**  **9 for the manufacturers because it sounds like**  **10 they think maybe an average is okay.**  **11 MR. RAMIREZ: All right, so --**  **12 MS. STARKEY: Average versus two.**  **13 MR. RAMIREZ: Let me ask --**  **14 MR. SCHNEIDER: This is Peter.**  **15 MR. RAMIREZ: Go ahead, Peter.**  **16 MR. SCHNEIDER: Am I on now?**  **17 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, go ahead, Peter.**  **18 MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, my point is,**  **19 and I would be interested to hear the rest of**  **20 the group's opinion on this, but at the end of**  **21 the day, if we're talking about an effective**  **22 Uo value that this home is going to achieve** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 with the assumptions we're making with quality**  **2 assurance and oversight and so forth, that at**  **3 the end of the day if we require the multi**  **4 section Uo, we're going to be probably**  **5 achieving something closer to the single**  **6 section Uo.**  **7 And so I just feel like if that's**  **8 where we want to end up, then once we start**  **9 factoring in how these homes are actually**  **10 being turned out, we're going to be closer if**  **11 we lower the bar or increase the bar, however**  **12 you look at it. But a lower Uo is going to**  **13 get us where we want to be.**  **14 MS. STARKEY: As opposed to an**  **15 average?**  **16 MR. SCHNEIDER: Right. I mean, you**  **17 know, I'm okay to meet in the middle, but I**  **18 honestly feel as though if we were to look at**  **19 actual achievable results by the manufacturer**  **20 that are going to achieve actual Uo, effective**  **21 Uo values, I would say that if we get down to**  **22 the multi section number as shown in this** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 table, that we're actually going to be**  **2 achieving the single section Uo value when you**  **3 factor in all the characteristics that really**  **4 link to an effective --**  **5 MR. RAMIREZ: So let me jump on real**  **6 quick because we had three no votes on that**  **7 one. Technically, you have consensus on it.**  **8 But I want to see if we could get a stronger**  **9 one, right?**  **10 And I would like to check it if we**  **11 could do an average, a single one --**  **12 MR. HAGERMAN: Can I just make a**  **13 quick observation because I think that there's**  **14 really four options here, right? You take two**  **15 tables, you take an average, or you take one**  **16 column or the other column. You got four**  **17 choices here, right?**  **18 MS. STARKEY: We've heard advocates**  **19 from each of those positions.**  **20 MR. HAGERMAN: Right. So we just**  **21 took a vote on the two table, which is I think**  **22 is, you know, like, my opinion is the most of** 

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### 1 the compromise. It doesn't quite average it. **2 And we have sort of a consensus, but it's a 3 little bit weak, as Javier said.**  **4 You're going to take a vote on the 5 average, and then take a vote on the --**  **6 (Simultaneous speaking) 7 MR. RAMIREZ: I'll tell you what,**  **8 because if we do the single, right, or if we 9 just say we'll take the higher or the lower,**  **10 we're probably going to get more dissension 11 than the average.**  **12 MR. HAGERMAN: You think so, right? 13 MR. RAMIREZ: Right, so I want to**  **14 skip that and I want to go to the average, 15 right, take an average number, one number.**  **16 Let's see a show of thumbs for the average. 17 MS. HOFFMAN: And before we do that,**  **18 do you have comment? 19 MR. UNGAR: I do have a comment. I**  **20 can go -- 21 MS. HOFFMAN: You can wait?**  **22 MR. UNGAR: I'm okay skipping it if**

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 you really want to move forward, but otherwise**  **2 I do have a comment.**  **3 MS. HOFFMAN: Say it.**  **4 MR. UNGAR: So --**  **5 MR. SCHNEIDER: This is Peter. I**  **6 have a quick just clarification question.**  **7 MR. RAMIREZ: All right, Peter,**  **8 we'll get that clarification question in just**  **9 a second. Go ahead, Lowell.**  **10 MR. UNGAR: Two things, actually.**  **11 One is, I mean, while obviously if we have one**  **12 number I would prefer the lower number being**  **13 my organization. In fact, I mean, we're not**  **14 going to agree on that, nor are we going to**  **15 agree on the higher number. If we're going to**  **16 do one number, then I could see an average.**  **17 The other possibility would be if**  **18 there's really concern about meeting the**  **19 tighter numbers in the northern regions,**  **20 another way of doing it would be take the**  **21 single section number in the north and take**  **22 the multi section number in the south. And** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 that would be another way, that would be a**  **2 different way of averaging options.**  **3 My larger point is I keep hearing**  **4 Mark say he wants to consult with his members**  **5 and that he's not ready to make this decision.**  **6 I'm very anxious of what industry thinks, I**  **7 think either one is a viable option.**  **8 And so it seems to me we can move**  **9 forward with these two numbers right now. I**  **10 don't think it will prevent us from doing**  **11 anything else. And let's give Mark a chance**  **12 to consult with his members and make this**  **13 decision later.**  **14 MR. LUBLINER: This is Mike**  **15 Lubliner. I agree with that. I would say we**  **16 voted right now on two, we've got consensus.**  **17 We can re-vote when Mark comes back and see if**  **18 we want to tweak this.**  **19 And I do think that what Peter said**  **20 about quality assurance is a critical issue.**  **21 I'm willing to go with an average down the**  **22 road if Mark's committed to this as an** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 affordability concession.**  **2 However, I do not believe that the**  **3 current HUD Quality Assurance program provides**  **4 that. So I will encourage DOE as I have in my**  **5 ex parte deposition during the ANOPR to stay**  **6 abreast to what's going on on the enforcement**  **7 for at least a couple years to make sure that**  **8 the trainings and all the assumptions we've**  **9 used in this modeling is actually being**  **10 implemented, and tweak if it's necessary so**  **11 we're not burdening the industry with things**  **12 that maybe aren't as buildable as we thought**  **13 and also educating them on how to get to a**  **14 better practice in terms of quality**  **15 installation. Thank you.**  **16 MR. RAMIREZ: All right. Let's get**  **17 David, and then Lois.**  **18 MR. TOMPOS: I just want to say that**  **19 I'm completely offended about the comments**  **20 about the quality control in this industry.**  **21 The oversight and the quality in this industry**  **22 is far beyond anything you're going to find in** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 a site build house.**  **2 And Michael and Peter have made**  **3 accusations that there are issues out in the**  **4 field. I have held my tongue because most of**  **5 the technical stuff that he's brought up is**  **6 wrong.**  **7 And if he does have evidence that**  **8 there are issues out there, I would be more**  **9 than happy to look into them. But we do**  **10 address all the concerns, you know, if there**  **11 are problems in the field, we do take care of**  **12 them.**  **13 So I'm just stating my opinion that,**  **14 you know, some of these accusations are**  **15 without merit in my opinion.**  **16 MR. RAMIREZ: Noted. Lois?**  **17 MS. STARKEY: I would just like to**  **18 just see what the group thinks about an**  **19 average because it sounds like there's so many**  **20 factions that feel like two table, with two it**  **21 won't necessarily mean anything, that an**  **22 average is just as, would be easier and** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 better.**  **2 MR. RAMIREZ: So you would like a**  **3 vote?**  **4 MS. STARKEY: So I would just like**  **5 to hear, to get, like, a vote on average. And**  **6 then we'll have two consensus approaches.**  **7 MR. RAMIREZ: Then what? I mean, if**  **8 we have two of them where, let's say, it's**  **9 approved by consensus, then what do you do**  **10 with that?**  **11 MR. HAGERMAN: Let's just find out.**  **12 MS. STARKEY: Yes.**  **13 MR. HAGERMAN: Let's vote.**  **14 MR. RAMIREZ: You guys got it.**  **15 Let's see it. Let's see thumbs, let's see**  **16 thumbs on an average. An average number. All**  **17 right, so anyone on line with your thumbs down**  **18 for one average number?**  **19 All right, so the only no vote was**  **20 Mark. And I think we have the --**  **21 MS. HOFFMAN: Keith, did you vote?**  **22 MALE PARTICIPANT: Derivative --** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. DENNIS: I'm just sideways.**  **2 MS. HOFFMAN: Sideways, okay.**  **3 (Off microphone comments)**  **4 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, there's only one**  **5 no vote. So we --**  **6 MR. HAGERMAN: We have consensus**  **7 then.**  **8 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes.**  **9 MS. HOFFMAN: It is consensus.**  **10 MR. HAGERMAN: Oh, I'm sorry, if you**  **11 do sideways, it's --**  **12 MS. HOFFMAN: It's consensus.**  **13 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, sideways is you**  **14 don't really, so let's refresh everyone's**  **15 memory here. Thumbs up --**  **16 MR. ROY: Then we can have them**  **17 tied. I'm happy to have them tied. I'll go**  **18 down with you on this if you wish. I really**  **19 don't care. I just want to move on from this.**  **20 Let's move on from this.**  **21 MR. HAGERMAN: I say**  **22 notwithstanding, I mean, we already voted on** 

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### 1 having two tables until we hear back from **2 Mark's group. And so we can take it back up 3 when we hear from them.**  **4 MR. WEISS: My no vote is just based 5 on a cost issue, and I will follow up on the**  **6 other matter. 7 MS. HOFFMAN: But it was, just to**  **8 summarize, it was a consensus enough, not a 9 stirring strong one, but it was a consensus.**  **10 But we also have a feeling about the average 11 as another possibility. So we're not**  **12 definitively resolving it, we're waiting for 13 Mark to come back.**  **14 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, there are a few 15 more sideway votes on that one than the**  **16 previous. 17 MS. HOFFMAN: Yes, right.**  **18 MR. DENNIS: I'm sideways, as well. 19 I mean, I think that the two tables, it seems**  **20 to do more for affordability. But, you know, 21 I don't really care, but it seems kind of**  **22 counterintuitive that you care about it and,**

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### 1 you know, affordability wouldn't be -- **2 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, the stronger 3 consensus vote was a double. But single may**  **4 be the alternative. 5 MR. WEISS: Yes. I mean, I like**  **6 Dave's proposal, you know, one to one table 7 based on single section. But you know, I got**  **8 to talk to our people. 9 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes. Well, that is**  **10 what we just voted on, which was the average 11 number where David was talking about using a**  **12 higher number, where I'm sure there are some 13 folks in the room would say all right, you**  **14 want a single number, let's do it a lower 15 number, right?**  **16 (Simultaneous speaking) 17 MS. HOFFMAN: I think we have that.**  **18 We have Peter and Michael saying the higher 19 number and you guys saying lower. So I think**  **20 we've got all four views here. 21 MR. RAMIREZ: That's why I skipped**  **22 those and just went right to the average.**

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay. But I think**  **2 we've got a feel for this. We should probably**  **3 move on then. We have a couple of things**  **4 before lunch, and then Emmanuel, are you going**  **5 to say --**  **6 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, before we get to**  **7 Emmanuel, I wanted to just ask the group do we**  **8 need to talk about a we do it now as far as**  **9 other performance paths. Do we --**  **10 MR. LACEY: I can speak to that. I**  **11 raised that yesterday. This is Eric from**  **12 RECA. You know, I raised this issue yesterday**  **13 not knowing if we needed to discuss it, maybe**  **14 we can wrap it up quickly.**  **15 Right now my understanding is we**  **16 have a prescriptive table that's very similar**  **17 to the IECC prescriptive table and obviously**  **18 you'd probably have to add a few more details,**  **19 you know, the mandatory requirements and maybe**  **20 some footnotes to the table and so on, but the**  **21 concept I think is there to have a**  **22 prescriptive path.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 And we're talking about U sub o**  **2 numbers and my assumption is that there would**  **3 also be a performance path or U sub o path.**  **4 And likewise, you add the, you know, the**  **5 mandatory requirements and footnotes and other**  **6 details there.**  **7 But the two concepts are there, I**  **8 think, have a prescriptive and a U sub o path.**  **9 Maybe, you know, if we want to include in a**  **10 recommendation to DOE the creative version of**  **11 REScheck that would be based on the U sub o**  **12 path or on the prescriptive path, that's, you**  **13 know, I think that probably a reasonable thing**  **14 to ask.**  **15 But is there a driving need for any**  **16 other performance or other compliance paths**  **17 that we haven't discussed already? I guess**  **18 that was the question I wanted to raise.**  **19 MR. ROY: It's a good one, this is**  **20 Robin. I think the other path, which is**  **21 really standing out there in the 2015 IECC is**  **22 energy rating index, right?** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. LACEY: Yes.**  **2 MR. ROY: And my organization has**  **3 really promoted that effort and was pushing it**  **4 hard in 2015. I'm very excited about it, but**  **5 I think there's so much motion in this**  **6 manufactured housing space, I'm very keen to**  **7 bed this one down.**  **8 We can revisit it in three years and**  **9 see if that is, that's something that will be**  **10 useful and want to go to. It hasn't been**  **11 proven up as a mechanism that is widely**  **12 adopted in the site build world, so I would be**  **13 willing to table that sort of thing, even**  **14 though it is in the IECC, recognizing our**  **15 interest in it.**  **16 MR. RAMIREZ: So when you say table**  **17 you mean other compliance paths and just stick**  **18 with prescriptive --**  **19 MS. HOFFMAN: Put it aside --**  **20 MR. ROY: I mean in the U.S. sense,**  **21 not the British sense, right.**  **22 MS. HOFFMAN: Right, you put --** 

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### 1 MR. ROY: And then just put it **2 aside. 3 MS. HOFFMAN: Put it aside.**  **4 MR. ROY: Recognize we care about 5 it, looking forward to seeing how the ERI**  **6 works in the site built world, revisit it in 7 a few years, if it's something that's useful**  **8 to manufacturers and to getting another 9 compliance path.**  **10 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes. Well when you 11 said put aside, you're saying that your, the**  **12 energy rating or all -- 13 MS. HOFFMAN: No, no, no.**  **14 MR. ROY: There's another path in 15 the IECC called energy rating index and --**  **16 MS. HOFFMAN: Yes. 17 MR. ROY: -- I'm saying let's not**  **18 discuss it here. 19 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay, but what about**  **20 -- 21 MR. RUTHER: But we need to have**  **22 discussion public.**

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### 1 MR. RAMIREZ: What about possible **2 performance for UA? 3 MR. HAGERMAN: Can I just comment on**  **4 the ERI path real quick? I agree with you, 5 there's some data that I think we'd all have**  **6 to go through on that path that's going to 7 make it, I think, particularly hard on this**  **8 industry. 9 So I agree, let's table it for this**  **10 round of the standards, but I think -- 11 MR. LUBLINER: This is Mike**  **12 Lubliner. 13 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, Mike?**  **14 MR. LUBLINER: Yes, I agree with 15 both those guys here for a couple reasons.**  **16 And I was working with REScheck for years on 17 the technical committee, I do support a long**  **18 term goal of getting energy labels that have 19 ratings on the sticker, but I think for right**  **20 now, and I'd say Confucius say a man with 21 three rating, you know, systems never know**  **22 rating. I think we're good with perspective,**

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 with the Uo, I'd love to see that modification**  **2 made to REScheck to do that and we could table**  **3 this for now as Robin suggested.**  **4 One thing that I should point out**  **5 about the rating is it requires field visits.**  **6 And so it's well beyond the scope of what**  **7 we're doing right now.**  **8 To get a rating you have to evaluate**  **9 the actual house in, after setup. So I would**  **10 support limiting this right now and recommend**  **11 it. Thank you.**  **12 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay, so we're good**  **13 then?**  **14 MR. LACEY: I think we're good.**  **15 MR. ROY: Are we ready for**  **16 consensus? We want to vote --**  **17 MS. HOFFMAN: Yes, it think we**  **18 should get a consensus.**  **19 MR. ROY: An agreement right?**  **20 MR. LACEY: Yes, that's fine.**  **21 MR. ROY: With consensus with the**  **22 Uo? Have a prescriptive in the Uo?** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. LACEY: Have a prescriptive path**  **2 and a Uo path.**  **3 MR. HAGERMAN: Yes, sir.**  **4 MR. LACEY: So two paths.**  **5 MR. HAGERMAN: Okay.**  **6 MS. HOFFMAN: And then you also**  **7 suggested the REScheck?**  **8 MR. LACEY: Well yes, that could be**  **9 in our recommendation to DOE to help provide**  **10 a goal that would calculate, you know.**  **11 MR. UNGAR: The REScheck doesn't**  **12 need to be a separate, is there --**  **13 MR. LACEY: No, it's not --**  **14 MR. UNGAR: -- any, a separate path**  **15 or is it just --**  **16 MR. LACEY: No, no, it's not.**  **17 MR. HAGERMAN: So can I just make a**  **18 quick recommendation that I think you have a,**  **19 I mean even though the department oversees**  **20 REScheck, I don't really know the ins and outs**  **21 of the REScheck program, what we do.**  **22 Could you help us, maybe before next** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 meeting or by next meeting, write us up some,**  **2 like how do you talk about that, talk about**  **3 the changes so we can make sure they're**  **4 clearly expressed to our colleagues down the**  **5 hall?**  **6 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes. All right, so,**  **7 well then it comes down on that last quote**  **8 online.**  **9 MS. HOFFMAN: On the two paths to**  **10 compliance?**  **11 MR. RAMIREZ: Prescriptive and U sub**  **12 o. Okay, that's that, we add this.**  **13 MS. HOFFMAN: All right.**  **14 MR. RAMIREZ: All right, I would**  **15 suggest we're a, we're at 11:36, before we get**  **16 into the discussion on, and we're not going to**  **17 take a vote but we're just going to have some**  **18 discussion on the climate zones, you want to**  **19 break for lunch or, Manny, do you, is that**  **20 something, Emanuel, is that something you**  **21 could run through before lunch? How much time**  **22 do you need for this?** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. LEVY: Well I could introduce it**  **2 before lunch and then we could have lunch,**  **3 think about it and come back to it.**  **4 MR. HAGERMAN: I think that's a**  **5 great idea.**  **6 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay.**  **7 MR. HAGERMAN: Then we can all**  **8 caucus as we wish during lunch.**  **9 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay.**  **10 MR. RAMIREZ: All right, I'm going**  **11 to put your chart up.**  **12 MR. HAGERMAN: So tell me, can I,**  **13 this is Joe Hagerman. I know we have some**  **14 other items to go through, and Emanuel is**  **15 going to present this, but just also something**  **16 to think about over the lunch break, it be**  **17 really nice to have a report out from all the**  **18 subcommittees that, you know, and they don't**  **19 have to be extensive report outs, but since**  **20 we're very close to, I think, coming up with**  **21 a nice term sheet, if there's anything**  **22 outstanding that needs to be discussed it be** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 really nice to hear about those items.**  **2 I mean you don't have to really**  **3 necessarily tell us all the ins and outs of**  **4 what you've been doing as a group, but if you,**  **5 if there's any concerns or there's other**  **6 outstanding items that need to be resolved we**  **7 need to quickly start making a list of those**  **8 and working through them.**  **9 I'm thinking in particular, Manny, I**  **10 know we've gone through all the IECC or I**  **11 think we've gone through all the IECC**  **12 provisions, but if there's any other**  **13 outstanding items that we need to be aware of,**  **14 let's hear about those, right?**  **15 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. Yes, and we**  **16 have stop after lunch, so think about it at**  **17 lunch, okay.**  **18 Okay, Manny, I'm sorry, Emanuel,**  **19 here's your map, you want to walk us through**  **20 it?**  **21 MR. LEVY: Okay. Yes. Okay, Map**  **22 version 27.3. What I tried to do is embody** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 some of the discussions that went on yesterday**  **2 about mapping and trying to get closer to the**  **3 IECC but while at the same time retaining some**  **4 of the benefits of the current HUD map.**  **5 So what I did is, last night, using**  **6 the IECC map as a starting point, as a**  **7 template for the zones, the one that we looked**  **8 at yesterday was similarly Uo values sort of**  **9 working over the map. And I made some**  **10 modifications to where the boarders fell to**  **11 try to make them more along the state lines**  **12 than the IECC map.**  **13 And I'll show you some examples of**  **14 that. And I moved, I made it, there's some**  **15 specific changes here that I want to kind of**  **16 highlight because they're slightly**  **17 counterintuitive.**  **18 So essentially what I did is I**  **19 combined the zones according to what the**  **20 similarities were in the U sub o's and then I**  **21 moved the boarders a little bit to get them on**  **22 the state lines, and I'll show you some** 

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### 1 examples again. **2 So I want to point out the specific 3 changes I made that are a little unique. The**  **4 what was in IECC Zone 2, which is mainly that 5 bottom part of Texas and Florida, I included**  **6 in that Southern, most Southern zone, which 7 shows the highest U sub o value, states of,**  **8 all of the states of Louisiana, Alabama, 9 Mississippi, Georgia and South Carolina.**  **10 And I did that kind of an homage to 11 what I think Robin was trying to achieve with**  **12 his two paths to compliance. And because in 13 that area, which in that now, area that's red**  **14 on your screen, is the lion's share to 15 affordable housing, manufactured housing**  **16 that's affordable in this country. 17 There's still some more low, I think**  **18 low cost housing up a little further North in 19 Kentucky and Tennessee, in particular, but**  **20 those are different now climatically that I 21 left those in Zone 2.**  **22 So by moving those four states into**

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 Zone 1 made it a little bit easier for those**  **2 states to comply. And I think that's kind of**  **3 moving towards what Robin was trying to**  **4 achieve. That's the most significant change**  **5 I've made to the map after combing the zones.**  **6 I also, and this is a little less, I**  **7 left the piece in Arizona which you see that's**  **8 in red, I left that in red, that's something**  **9 that we can talk about. That is the Southern**  **10 part of the state that had specific miles,**  **11 weather conditions similar to the rest of Zone**  **12 1. Zone 2.**  **13 So I left that in red. That was**  **14 kind of one the exceptions to try and to fold**  **15 zones together.**  **16 And then the rest of this is, you**  **17 can see where I tried to move the boarders to**  **18 get along state lines. So if you look from**  **19 California, for example, the upper part of**  **20 California would have been in 3 and I moved**  **21 that into 2.**  **22 Clark County and Las Vegas has been** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 moved into, up into, from 2 to up to 3. You**  **2 can see where things have been shifted a**  **3 little bit by looking at the dotted line**  **4 that's coming across here, that that is the**  **5 board of the IECC zone.**  **6 So some parts have been moved from 2**  **7 to 3 and some from 3 to 2, mainly to get**  **8 things in, along the state lines. But**  **9 primarily focusing on those areas where there**  **10 aren't a lot of homes so it's not having a**  **11 huge impact overall. And I subsumed some of**  **12 the states into Zone 2. Let me just finish**  **13 this and then we'll get to comments.**  **14 I also made some changes in Zone 4.**  **15 Moved the 4 down to cover all of North Dakota.**  **16 I eliminated the, for Michigan, the upper**  **17 Peninsula, put that back into Zone 3 so that**  **18 Michigan is together as one piece. But**  **19 otherwise, that zone has stayed intact.**  **20 And you can see what the, if we have**  **21 a single Uo value, not sure when that**  **22 conversation came out, approximately what it** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 would be. These are exactly the same numbers**  **2 that we just agreed upon, obviously, but**  **3 essentially what we agreed to.**  **4 And just one of the ramifications of**  **5 this is that the change in U sub o value from**  **6 the current HUD standard to the new HUD**  **7 standard would be in the range of 27 percent**  **8 increase improvement up to like 45 percent**  **9 improvement. So it's quite a substantial**  **10 improvement from current types to these**  **11 levels.**  **12 So that's, this is really a mapping**  **13 proposal that I've put in front of you.**  **14 MR. LUBLINER: This is Mike**  **15 Lubliner.**  **16 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, go ahead,**  **17 Michael.**  **18 MR. LUBLINER: Thanks. I mean I**  **19 want to thank you for taking a stab at this.**  **20 First comment, if you go to the**  **21 tables that we voted on, it shows that Climate**  **22 Zone 4 Marine is the same as Climate 5. So** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 I'm not sure if this is just an oversight or**  **2 what but I would think that we have**  **3 justification based on the table there, if you**  **4 can put that table up, it's pretty clear there**  **5 where the exemption is, that would make the**  **6 states of Oregon and Washington all blue and**  **7 satisfy my concerns yesterday without, and it**  **8 would be more consistent with what's in the**  **9 IECC. Which is that the states of Washington**  **10 and Oregon are the same climate.**  **11 I'd also suggest that Montana be**  **12 included in the purple climate zone. It has**  **13 comparable weather conditions and it could be**  **14 easily accommodated in drawing the map around**  **15 the state of Montana to extend over.**  **16 But the first point that I made**  **17 about Washington and Oregon is a critical one**  **18 and I would ask that you go back to the table**  **19 we voted on so I can explain this to the folks**  **20 nobody, so they don't understand it?**  **21 MR. RAMIREZ: Michael, hold on a**  **22 second.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. LUBLINER: Could you do that**  **2 please?**  **3 MR. RAMIREZ: Hold on a second. I'm**  **4 going to past the floor over to Robin because**  **5 what you're seeing on the screen right now is**  **6 a map that Robin had made and --**  **7 MR. LUBLINER: Okay, great.**  **8 MR. RAMIREZ: -- I think it's**  **9 addressing you're concern, but --**  **10 MR. ROY: Robin here.**  **11 MR. LUBLINER: It is.**  **12 MR. ROY: It's just making --**  **13 MR. LUBLINER: Thank you, Robin.**  **14 MR. ROY: Emanuel, I love what you**  **15 did with maps, I think it's so much fun. Look**  **16 what I can do to the map too, it's great.**  **17 I did not do anything like moving**  **18 state lines around, all I did was combine the**  **19 IECC zones that was consistent with what we've**  **20 been, you know, into those groupings without**  **21 changing any of the boundaries.**  **22 And to Luby's point, there is that** 

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### 1 IECC Marine Zone 4, which is treated in IECC **2 with the same insulating unit values as Zone 3 5. So I just combined those.**  **4 It's Western Washington, Western 5 Oregon and the bits of Northwestern**  **6 California. So it's just to that point. 7 Look, I got to say, that wouldn't be**  **8 very hard I think, Emanuel, to include those 9 pieces of Washington and Oregon in your**  **10 proposal either. Well not in your proposal, 11 I'm not sure you're proposing that, I'm**  **12 certainly not proposing this, I was just 13 drawing this as an exercise.**  **14 But I suspect it wouldn't be hard to 15 include those pieces of Oregon and Washington**  **16 that are in Marine Zone 4 in Zone 5. 17 MS. HOFFMAN: You mean Zone 3.**  **18 MR. ROY: Sorry. In the new Zone 3, 19 that's right, yes.**  **20 MS. HOFFMAN: Zone 3. 21 MR. RAMIREZ: Keith?**  **22 MR. DENNIS: Can I ask you a**

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 question. Why is, are we planning on voting**  **2 on the zones today?**  **3 MR. RAMIREZ: No.**  **4 MS. HOFFMAN: No.**  **5 MR. DENNIS: When people are putting**  **6 their zones together would it be possible to**  **7 make a note of which states would be --**  **8 MS. HOFFMAN: Yes.**  **9 MR. DENNIS: -- have split? Because**  **10 we have a lot of utilities, utilities have a**  **11 lot of manufactured housing and when they're**  **12 split I don't know if it's going to affect**  **13 them and I'd like to just ultimately contact**  **14 the states who it would effect, I don't think**  **15 it will, but I'd like to see, I saw Minnesota**  **16 was split in the last one which is why I asked**  **17 and I don't think that they were split before.**  **18 So I just want --**  **19 MR. ROY: There's a funny little**  **20 piece of split in North Carolina in there**  **21 which is Zone 3. You can barely see it.**  **22 MR. DENNIS: HUD didn't have any** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 split before, right?**  **2 MS. HOFFMAN: No.**  **3 DR. HOWE: Rather than --**  **4 MS. HOFFMAN: Matter of fact it's**  **5 all states.**  **6 MR. DENNIS: Rather than asking all**  **7 the states if the splits, I'd just rather ask,**  **8 you know, whatever state would be affected by**  **9 what we're voting on. It's not a big deal but**  **10 if you could.**  **11 MR. RAMIREZ: Lois?**  **12 MS. STARKEY: I had a chance to --**  **13 MR. LUBLINER: This is Mike Lubliner**  **14 --**  **15 MR. RAMIREZ: Hold on a second**  **16 Michael, Lois --**  **17 MS. STARKEY: I did have a chance to**  **18 --**  **19 MR. LUBLINER: Okay.**  **20 MS. STARKEY: -- have some**  **21 additional conversations with manufactures**  **22 about the zone issue. And if, they're** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 preference would be to try to, we have to have**  **2 more zones try to go by state lines if at all,**  **3 you know, for the most part.**  **4 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay, thank you.**  **5 Michael?**  **6 MR. LUBLINER: Yes, I firmly support**  **7 what Robin has here and if there is maybe a**  **8 trial balloon thumbs up and see if we can move**  **9 forward pending some feedback from the**  **10 gentleman who just spoke regarding his concern**  **11 in wanting to get clarity from his state.**  **12 But it think this solves my problem,**  **13 I think it's a solution that's a good one and**  **14 it takes into consideration the definition of**  **15 the marine climate for exception, which**  **16 Emanuel's map did not, and it also doesn't**  **17 arbitrarily cut things out between Montana and**  **18 North Dakota which obviously have the same**  **19 climate. Thank you.**  **20 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. Yes, I know**  **21 that there was a couple, there's a couple now**  **22 and Keith had asked to have an opportunity to** 

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### 1 speak with some of his folks and previously I **2 think, you still need a little bit more 3 discussion with your folks.**  **4 MS. STARKEY: Okay, but I think 5 they're comfortable, I think they'd be more**  **6 comfortable with a state approach. And 7 whether they put Montana in or in a different**  **8 zone and put all of Washington and Oregon in 9 zone, in a colder zone, you know, we can have**  **10 that debate, but I think we, yes, let's have 11 a little more discussion.**  **12 MR. RAMIREZ: So you're willing to 13 vote on something as long as it's within the**  **14 state lines? 15 MS. STARKEY: I think, is that,**  **16 unless I'm hearing if there's, I think that 17 was our view.**  **18 MR. ROY: But can you, it's not that 19 you would necessary oppose going on IECC**  **20 weather driven definition, but you would, the 21 members would prefer --**  **22 MR. RAMIREZ: Right.**

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. ROY: -- to have a state**  **2 definition. I mean it be interesting just to**  **3 know how deep that preference and what the**  **4 impositions would be.**  **5 MS. STARKEY: Yes.**  **6 MR. ROY: I'm really, I'm not trying**  **7 to impose any costs that are undo but I mean**  **8 obviously --**  **9 MS. STARKEY: Yes, no I mean let's,**  **10 I mean if we have a few minutes to talk we can**  **11 come back and talk later --**  **12 MR. ROY: That be great.**  **13 MS. STARKEY: -- afterwards. But,**  **14 you know, we should have a little bit more**  **15 discussion and hear from the manufactures that**  **16 are on this committee as to what they would**  **17 prefer between your approach, Robin, and**  **18 Emanuel's approach. Make some modifications.**  **19 MR. ROY: And also again, this is**  **20 not my proposal --**  **21 MS. STARKEY: Yes.**  **22 MR. ROY: -- this is just taking the** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 IECC --**  **2 MS. STARKEY: Right. And it's**  **3 morphing into a proposal that is --**  **4 MR. ROY: Right.**  **5 MS. STARKEY: -- different than what**  **6 Emanuel was --**  **7 MR. RAMIREZ: All right, let's get**  **8 Keith, Lowell, Mark and then Joe.**  **9 MR. DENNIS: Yes. And some people**  **10 on the phone are here right now about this,**  **11 but for instance West Virginia is split up and**  **12 I know we're doing a lot in West Virginia with**  **13 this state to get programs in and I also see**  **14 Indiana, Hoosier in Indiana, is trying to do**  **15 something with the state.**  **16 So it might have an effect from a**  **17 policy perspective that I don't know that we**  **18 want, I mean it looks like it's just around**  **19 the edges and stuff, so I'd like today --**  **20 MS. HOFFMAN: You want a breakdown**  **21 in the states?**  **22 MR. DENNIS: Well the states for** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 instance, the legislator may allow you to buy**  **2 a certain home and replace the old HUD homes**  **3 with new homes and it would be within the**  **4 state, and there might be different**  **5 specification.**  **6 I don't know how it would really**  **7 impact it, I'm not really an expert. I know,**  **8 I think Emanuel's group probably works on that**  **9 program a little bit.**  **10 MS. HOFFMAN: Yes.**  **11 MR. DENNIS: And I think next steps**  **12 --**  **13 MS. HOFFMAN: Replacement --**  **14 MR. DENNIS: -- replacement. So**  **15 state policies can matter. And if it's just**  **16 around the edges it might, there might be a**  **17 rational that we can say for why we use**  **18 weather, but, this way or that way.**  **19 I mean that's, I think it's a**  **20 consideration, a practical consideration**  **21 especially when it's just like little pieces**  **22 of West Virginia and little pieces of Indiana** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 and pieces of Ohio that seem like, you know,**  **2 state lines are pretty bright. You know what**  **3 I mean?**  **4 MR. ROY: Well I got a question for**  **5 you, and maybe a bit of a comment too. And I**  **6 suspect you're doing, your co-ops are doing**  **7 all kinds of energy efficiency work, not just**  **8 in manufactured housing but also in site**  **9 built, so they're dealing with this already,**  **10 but it would be interesting to get your co-ops**  **11 members, your members views to see if that's**  **12 particularly problematic.**  **13 And I also note that some co-ops**  **14 operate in multiple states. They're, some of**  **15 them are used to complexity.**  **16 MR. DENNIS: It's true. It's true.**  **17 MR. ROY: I'm not saying --**  **18 MR. DENNIS: Right.**  **19 MR. ROY: -- it gives the answer but**  **20 --**  **21 MR. DENNIS: Right.**  **22 MR. ROY: -- we're pretty confident** 

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### 1 -- **2 MR. DENNIS: That's true, it's just 3 the legislature, the legislate, getting a**  **4 legislation change in order to improve 5 manufacture housing is a big --**  **6 MR. ROY: Yes. 7 MR. DENNIS: -- lobby effort and**  **8 everything like -- 9 MR. ROY: Appreciate that.**  **10 MR. DENNIS: So it would be a shame 11 to get that changed and have different rules**  **12 and make it more difficult, you know. So I'd 13 like to hear what they have to say. But it's**  **14 a consideration. 15 MR. ROY: Yes.**  **16 MR. RAMIREZ: So let's get Lowell, 17 Mark and then Joe.**  **18 MS. HOFFMAN: Oh, good. 19 MR. HAGERMAN: I'm just going to**  **20 pass these out so everybody will have copies 21 --**  **22 MS. HOFFMAN: Great.**

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. HAGERMAN: -- of the maps and --**  **2 MR. UNGAR: Yes. I note it's**  **3 presumably with like new construction programs**  **4 and, right, if you were doing stick built then**  **5 they would have this issue. For retrofits it**  **6 didn't matter that much.**  **7 So I would wonder if we could take**  **8 something like this map and over the border**  **9 between Zone 2 and 3, where it is probably not**  **10 as many homes, make that follow state lines.**  **11 For Texas I would think there would**  **12 be more of a justification for potentially**  **13 splitting because there's so many manufactured**  **14 homes. There might be more reason to split**  **15 the state of Texas even if we don't, or in**  **16 general following state lines in other places.**  **17 And I don't know if there are any,**  **18 if Nevada or any place else would be an**  **19 exception as well.**  **20 And I guess the other thing was just**  **21 obviously there's, beside the question of**  **22 state versus county lines and I know it was a** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 very different map, and so I would have some**  **2 concerns about the way that states were split**  **3 on that.**  **4 Oh, and I guess the fourth question**  **5 is, in terms of doing more zones, it wasn't**  **6 clear to me. I mean one option obviously is**  **7 for the far North, wasn't included anyway, but**  **8 it's kind of enough homes to justify its**  **9 separate zone if you're looking at the very**  **10 far North.**  **11 I suppose another possibility would**  **12 be to split somewhere along zone, in the Zone**  **13 2, kind of split that into separate zones. I**  **14 don't know if we have the data, if we have**  **15 enough different locations to really make that**  **16 or, you know, if there's any reason to do**  **17 that.**  **18 So, you know, certainly more zones**  **19 seems viable, it's just not clear to me**  **20 whether we have a clear justification in any**  **21 particular case for going to four or five**  **22 zones.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. RAMIREZ: Do we have enough**  **2 knowledge in the room and the phone to have**  **3 that discussion where the lines might be a**  **4 little off on state lines where we might be**  **5 able to push something's up or down to fit**  **6 within a state based on their knowledge of**  **7 sales in those areas, right?**  **8 Do we have, is there enough, are**  **9 there enough folks in the room to try and**  **10 tighten this up a little bit?**  **11 MR. LUBLINER: This is Mike**  **12 Lubliner, Javier, Emanuel, we do have the data**  **13 on this, I have it in front of me, of the**  **14 sales in each of the states that comes in**  **15 play.**  **16 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay.**  **17 MR. UNGAR: Ideally you'd want**  **18 regions within the states.**  **19 MR. HAGERMAN: Yes, so I'm going**  **20 back where they're talking right now because**  **21 I'm not, I'm not, I'd really like us to**  **22 resolve as much as possible today as a group** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 in using your professional judgement wherever**  **2 possible but, you know, absent of that, what**  **3 we could do for some analysis is pull the**  **4 census tracks and then make a determination on**  **5 how manufactured houses are in the census**  **6 tracks which were a little bit more granular**  **7 than what you see here.**  **8 In the, in particularly the areas or**  **9 the states that are colored, you know, that**  **10 have two colors, red. So if you just look at**  **11 New Mexico, for example right, we may do a**  **12 census analysis and see that, you know, all**  **13 the shipments are predominately North rather**  **14 than South which may give us some more, better**  **15 logical reasons on why we would turn a state**  **16 a solid color and not red.**  **17 I'm really, I mean that's how I**  **18 would, you know, mathematically engineering**  **19 way kind of resolve this. You know, if you**  **20 left it up to the department to resolve that's**  **21 the type of methodology that I would foresee**  **22 us taking, right?** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 Now having said that, we may do that**  **2 analysis and the map may come back like this,**  **3 right? It maybe equal distributions in those**  **4 areas.**  **5 So it be nice to hear more**  **6 commentary, so appreciate, Keith, everything**  **7 you said about state boundary, I totally agree**  **8 with you, it be equally important to hear from**  **9 the manufactures what would happen like in**  **10 Texas where I think the census data will**  **11 probably say it's equal distribution**  **12 throughout the state, how we would deal with**  **13 those, how we would deal with those, those**  **14 issues, right?**  **15 I mean could the manufactures live**  **16 with Texas being divided like that?**  **17 Particularly like to hear from the people that**  **18 manufacture in Texas.**  **19 MR. KESSLER: This is Bert. We have**  **20 two factories in Texas and I have given this**  **21 good thought and I don't anticipate this being**  **22 a real big issue.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 I think I mentioned yesterday that**  **2 for the most part any retailers that are near**  **3 one of those dividing lines, they usually**  **4 order their stock to the most stringent**  **5 requirement. So I don't see this as a**  **6 problem.**  **7 But dealing with it on the wind**  **8 state side right now, so.**  **9 MR. SANTANA: This is Manny with**  **10 Cavco, we also have several products in Texas**  **11 and they build a range of products. You know,**  **12 Texas is responsible for 20 percent of the**  **13 industry's shipments.**  **14 There a lot of single wides in Texas**  **15 and there's also a lot of zones where**  **16 affordability is a big concern. And having**  **17 said that, you know, what Bert said is also**  **18 true is that, you know, dealers also recognize**  **19 the climate in their area and plants, even the**  **20 ones that build very affordable products, they**  **21 also offer an energy package. You know, it is**  **22 what they call it.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 So they offer two tiers of, you**  **2 know, insulation packages and two tiers of**  **3 products. So I don't know that a division of**  **4 Texas is going to be the end of the world for**  **5 them.**  **6 They are going to struggle meeting**  **7 the U values. And because of that I like**  **8 Emanuel's map and his proposal for the reasons**  **9 he gave. You know, I don't think splitting**  **10 the state is going to be the end of the world,**  **11 I think that having some consideration for the**  **12 economic impact, because you have a higher**  **13 concentration of single wides and a higher**  **14 concentration of, you know, what we call, what**  **15 we've been calling the HUD base.**  **16 You know, the HUD base isn't really**  **17 accurate for the Northwest or, you know,**  **18 California or other parts of the country, but**  **19 the HUD base is pretty close to what's going**  **20 on in the South. You know, so maybe we can**  **21 keep that in mind.**  **22 MR. LEVY: Joe, can I interject a** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 comment here, it's Emanuel? I think it's**  **2 partly demographic terms of the number of**  **3 shipments, but it's also climate conditions.**  **4 You know, Texas is kind of a unique**  **5 case because it covers three climates, three**  **6 of the IECC climate zones. So not to divide**  **7 it up in some fashion seems to be a, I think**  **8 would be a mistake.**  **9 The other thing we can keep in mind**  **10 about Texas, is in June it has 22.8 percent of**  **11 the total U.S. starts. Shipments rather.**  **12 So it's a big deal in terms of our**  **13 discussion. Ten times what the Northwest has**  **14 just in one state.**  **15 And so it's a really significant,**  **16 there's a real significant reason why to**  **17 divide up the state along the lines. Along**  **18 some lines.**  **19 MR. HAGERMAN: So --**  **20 MR. LEVY: It's --**  **21 MR. HAGERMAN: Go ahead, Mark.**  **22 MR. LUBLINER: This is Mike** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 Lubliner.**  **2 MR. LEVY: -- marked as a plate --**  **3 MR. LUBLINER: Sorry, Mark, go for**  **4 it.**  **5 MR. LEVY: Okay, thanks.**  **6 MR. EZZO: Yes, I mean I like**  **7 Emanuel showed up there with the slides for**  **8 this one where he made an attempt at following**  **9 all the state lines, I think that's definitely**  **10 the, would be the preference for most of the**  **11 people out in retail world and manufactures.**  **12 But, and I recognize that Texas is**  **13 such a huge state. And like Emanuel just**  **14 said, covers I think three of the IECC climate**  **15 zones that I think separating the state like**  **16 is shown on this map here in the two sections,**  **17 is probably something that we need to**  **18 consider.**  **19 And like I think Bert and Manny**  **20 said, it's not the end of the world, it's**  **21 something I think that we could, we could**  **22 accommodate.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 But following the state boundaries,**  **2 where possible, I think is, I think is the**  **3 preferred approach.**  **4 MR. LUBLINER: This is Mike**  **5 Lubliner.**  **6 MR. RAMIREZ: Go ahead, Michael.**  **7 MR. LUBLINER: Yes, so Mark, I want**  **8 to followup. I agree that state boundaries**  **9 are preferred approach and based on what I**  **10 said, and I'd ask Emanuel the same question,**  **11 that there is an exemption for climate zone,**  **12 for IECC Climate Zone 4 Marine that puts it in**  **13 5.**  **14 And this is clear in the stuff we**  **15 just approved in the tables. So I would ask**  **16 you whether you agree that the states of**  **17 Washington and Oregon should be the same in**  **18 the blue, as Emanuel showed, and acknowledge**  **19 whether or not you disagree with the IECC in**  **20 terms of making Climate Zone 4 Marine meet the**  **21 Climate Zone 5 requirements?**  **22 MR. EZZO: Yes, this is Mark. I** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 think that, I think the net effect of what**  **2 Emanuel is showing here, at least for the**  **3 factories that I deal with, is going to be,**  **4 they're going to worse case that vertical**  **5 line. I don't think they're going to want to**  **6 try and manage the complexity of the two**  **7 different zones that split the states.**  **8 But I also don't like forcing**  **9 everybody into that same mode where a**  **10 manufacturer or a retailer wants to take**  **11 advantage of the less strict requirements in**  **12 the Western parts of those states. I think**  **13 they should be allowed to.**  **14 MR. LUBLINER: So this is Mike**  **15 again, I just want to followup, maybe it's**  **16 important to go back to the table we voted on**  **17 now, so I want to be clear that, make sure**  **18 that everybody understands what I'm talking**  **19 about.**  **20 I think that this table that Emanuel**  **21 has shown separates the state mischaracterizes**  **22 what was in IC and the IECC. So I want to get** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 clear that either I have mischaracterized it**  **2 or everybody else has.**  **3 As I think Eric notes or Lowell**  **4 noted, if you go to the table in the IECC that**  **5 we voted on it says very clearly that climate,**  **6 Marine Climate Zone 4 is Climate Zone 5. The**  **7 descriptive path in that table is the same.**  **8 MR. LEVY: Michael?**  **9 MR. LUBLINER: Yes, sir.**  **10 MR. LEVY: Michael, it's Emanuel.**  **11 Let me just cut you off for a second because**  **12 I don't disagree with you but, and I agree**  **13 that we can include that.**  **14 The confusion came up, if you can go**  **15 to my presentation, Javier, on Page 3, you can**  **16 pull that back up?**  **17 MR. LUBLINER: And I suppose --**  **18 MR. LEVY: And I --**  **19 MR. LUBLINER: -- table first so**  **20 everybody understands what we're talking**  **21 about.**  **22 MR. RAMIREZ: Maybe we can --** 

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### 1 MR. HAGERMAN: I wonder if we should **2 take a lunch break right now and then 3 possibly, and I hate to impose on you,**  **4 Emanuel, but, you know, the last map that you 5 had up there didn't obviously, because we**  **6 hadn't voted on it yet when you sent it, 7 didn't include the updated Uo values. I**  **8 wonder if it would help if you -- 9 MR. LUBLINER: Yes --**  **10 MR. HAGERMAN: -- maybe over lunch 11 could redraw something?**  **12 MR. LEVY: Right, we'll update those 13 and send them down with you, Joe.**  **14 MR. HAGERMAN: Okay, well let's do 15 that. Let's --**  **16 MR. LEVY: Joe, can you -- 17 MR. HAGERMAN: Can we pause the**  **18 conversation and have a lunch break then come 19 back and continue?**  **20 MR. LUBLINER: I would respectfully 21 just ask you for 30 more seconds so you can**  **22 zoom in on this slide and you'll understand**

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 what I'm talking about?**  **2 MR. HAGERMAN: You're down to 29.**  **3 MR. LUBLINER: Okay, zoom in.**  **4 MR. EZZO: Michael, before you --**  **5 MR. LUBLINER: There it is. Okay,**  **6 there it is right there.**  **7 MR. EZZO: Michael, before you**  **8 extend that I just want to say that I agree**  **9 with you --**  **10 MR. LUBLINER: Thank you.**  **11 MR. EZZO: -- but if you look at the**  **12 map, just look at the map on Page 3, this can**  **13 be a discussion over lunch, this is where they**  **14 ended, just zoom down on that, this is where**  **15 the confusion came. This is the map out of**  **16 the IECC --**  **17 MR. LUBLINER: Yes, I understand.**  **18 MR. EZZO: -- which put the marine**  **19 in the 4. And I'm not sure why that is.**  **20 MR. LUBLINER: So go back to the**  **21 table we voted on please. I just want to make**  **22 sure everybody else that maybe doesn't** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 understand this, Emanuel, is aware of what I'm**  **2 talking about here.**  **3 MS. HOFFMAN: I think we're all**  **4 aware.**  **5 MR. LUBLINER: So this right --**  **6 MS. HOFFMAN: No, Michael, I think**  **7 we're all aware.**  **8 MR. LUBLINER: Okay, have a good**  **9 lunch. Have a good lunch, thanks very much.**  **10 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay.**  **11 MR. HAGERMAN: And guys, if you want**  **12 to, feel like you need to redraw the map while**  **13 we're at lunch and want to send it to us,**  **14 absolutely.**  **15 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes.**  **16 MR. HAGERMAN: We're welcome for**  **17 anything to see if we can get resolution on**  **18 this quickly.**  **19 (Whereupon, the above-entitled**  **20 matter went off the record at 12:05 p.m. and**  **21 resumed at 1:18 p.m.)**  **22**

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 A-F-T-E-R-N-O-O-N S-E-S-S-I-O-N**  **2 (1:18 p.m.)**  **3 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay. Thank you.**  **4 We're going back on the record, we're going to**  **5 get started. Thank you.**  **6 I just want to mention our colleague**  **7 and co-facilitator Ted Bantle is here. Thank**  **8 god. Okay.**  **9 When we left at the lunch break we**  **10 had a number of maps up there. And I think,**  **11 was Emanuel coming back or something --**  **12 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, Emanuel, have you**  **13 had a chance to get anything updated yet? Or**  **14 not yet?**  **15 MS. STARKEY: No I just talked to**  **16 him and he said he had a new map.**  **17 MR. HAGERMAN: Just to make sure,**  **18 can everybody hear us on the phone?**  **19 MR. LEVY: Yes.**  **20 MS. HOFFMAN: And that's Emanuel,**  **21 right?**  **22 MR. HAGERMAN: That's Emanuel.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 2**  **MR. LEVY: Okay. Or at least I can 3**  **hear you. 4**  **MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. Do you have a 5**  **new map that you could send us to put up? Or 6**  **not yet? 7**  **MR. LEVY: I sent it already, 8**  **Javier, about 20 minutes ago. 9**  **MR. RAMIREZ: Did you send it to 10**  **Javier? 11**  **MR. LEVY: I did. 12**  **(Off microphone comments.) 13**  **MR. LEVY: Javier, did you not get 14**  **it? 15**  **MR. HAGERMAN: Yes, it has not come 16**  **through yet. Yes, the latest one I have is -- 17**  **Oh wait a second. 18**  **MS. HOFFMAN: Oh that looks like it. 19**  **About 12:42. That's it. 20**  **MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, you know, because 21**  **mine still has Chicago time, so that was 22**  **11:40.**

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 All right. So what we're going to**  **2 try doing is this map that Emanuel put**  **3 together has the two different Uo values as**  **4 far as single and multi-section.**  **5 And the discussion that I'd like to**  **6 have with you all is see, and tapping into the**  **7 subject matter experts in the room, right, as**  **8 far as if this path doesn't work what do we do**  **9 in order to make it work.**  **10 And we're going to try to get into**  **11 that way, we can actually put some little**  **12 lines on here as we go. So we just need to**  **13 get the orientation right on here. So as soon**  **14 as we do we'll start that discussion.**  **15 Emanuel, is there anything that you**  **16 wanted to tell us as far as a set-up for this**  **17 before we get rolling?**  **18 MR. LEVY: Just that the one change**  **19 that's been made is the coast of Oregon and**  **20 Washington have now been included in Zone 3.**  **21 And the U values are shown for single and**  **22 multi in the parentheses below each zone,** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 these are the ones that we discussed earlier.**  **2 Those are the only changes that have been**  **3 made.**  **4 MR. RAMIREZ: All right. So how**  **5 does the map look to folks. Where do we -- Is**  **6 this the new map or do we need to make some**  **7 changes to it?**  **8 MR. HAGERMAN: Would it help if I, do**  **9 I need to print it out for anybody? I mean**  **10 it's pretty --**  **11 MR. MENDLEN: We're good.**  **12 MR. LUBLINER: This is Mike Lubliner.**  **13 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, Michael.**  **14 MR. LUBLINER: Yes, I thank you,**  **15 Emanuel, for acknowledging that exemption**  **16 there for green climate, I appreciate that.**  **17 I was just wondering on the purple**  **18 climate zone, what are the metrics used to**  **19 define that? Because it's not by state and**  **20 it's not, you know, so what drove us to do**  **21 that?**  **22 I know that like Helena, Montana for** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 example has similar life cycle cost enough to**  **2 erode that. So I was just wondering what**  **3 drove us to limit the purple to its current**  **4 area? It may not matter when all is said and**  **5 done. I don't know.**  **6 MR. LEVY: I can explain that. The**  **7 purple area essentially is what's in 7 and 8,**  **8 or 7 I should say in the IECC, except that**  **9 I've added in the North Dakota the bottom of**  **10 the state up into that zone. So all of North**  **11 Dakota, to keep the state together, is added.**  **12 But I didn't add in the rest of**  **13 Minnesota or Wisconsin thinking that there was**  **14 a enough of a climatic difference there to**  **15 keep the boundaries the way they are in the**  **16 IECC.**  **17 So essentially I have expanded this**  **18 area from what's in the IECC but only to**  **19 include the bottom of North Dakota. All of**  **20 Montana is in Zone 6 and I've left it there.**  **21 MR. HAGERMAN: This is Joe Hagerman,**  **22 DOE. Is there any reason like the southern** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 states, like South Carolina, Georgia, Alabama,**  **2 Mississippi, would be Climate Zone 1 and not**  **3 Climate Zone 2?**  **4 MR. LEVY: Yes, Joe, this is what I**  **5 tried to -- This is Emanuel. This is what I**  **6 tried to address earlier. Right now in**  **7 Climate Zone 2 for the IECC that includes the,**  **8 that's right, that's what you're looking at**  **9 right there.**  **10 MR. HAGERMAN: Right.**  **11 MR. LEVY: It's been blown up. I**  **12 took the liberty of including the rest of**  **13 those southern states, Louisiana over to South**  **14 Carolina, because that is really the heart of**  **15 the affordable housing industry in the South.**  **16 And I felt at least that it should be**  **17 given a little bit more leniency in terms of**  **18 compliance because that is really, I mean, and**  **19 this gets to the heart of what I think what**  **20 Robin was trying to at with the bifurcated**  **21 standard.**  **22 This allows that affordable housing** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 area not to be really challenged in terms of**  **2 cost as dramatically as what it would it be if**  **3 it was in Zone 2.**  **4 So, again, this is an affordability**  **5 issue. It's just another way of getting at**  **6 what we were trying to deal with earlier. And**  **7 from our experience those are the states that**  **8 have affordable housing.**  **9 MR. RAMIREZ: Lois -- I'm sorry.**  **10 Lois up first.**  **11 MS. STARKEY: Emanuel, what is the**  **12 percentage, and maybe we don't know the number**  **13 of homes, but if we go to this Zone 1 with**  **14 these new values, what improvements over the**  **15 existing HUD 1 are we making, in percentage**  **16 terms?**  **17 MR. LEVY: Oh so it's, I have that**  **18 figured somewhere here. It's -- there's a**  **19 .116 day, we're talking about taking it down**  **20 to about .0085. So it's around 28/29 percent.**  **21 You'd have 28 percent improvement.**  **22 MR. WEISS: Could I just follow up on** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 this?**  **2 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, go ahead, Mark.**  **3 MR. WEISS: And this goes back to**  **4 something Emanuel said this morning. Thanks,**  **5 Emanuel, could you just take that out to the**  **6 full range? Going all the way, I guess, to**  **7 Zone 4.**  **8 So it would be 28 percent improvement**  **9 up to what further percentage of an**  **10 improvement in the highest zone? I think you**  **11 had mentioned this earlier.**  **12 MR. LEVY: So you're saying what is**  **13 the range of the improvements across the**  **14 zones, Mark?**  **15 MR. WEISS: Yes. Yes. Lowest I**  **16 guess would be 28 percent, what you just said.**  **17 Up to, what would be the highest?**  **18 MR. LEVY: That's in the low 40**  **19 percent, percentile.**  **20 MR. WEISS: Okay. Thank you.**  **21 MR. LEVY: You can see right away,**  **22 for anybody who knows the HUD map, that the** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 top of Texas was in .0069 or so and today it's**  **2 .116. That's a 40-some percent improvement**  **3 for that section. And all the other states**  **4 that are currently in Zone 1.**  **5 I think that would be probably, I**  **6 mean, if you take the most owned zone, we're**  **7 going to .050 or .051 from what is today .079,**  **8 so that's again a 30 percent improvement. And**  **9 they're all in the range of 28 to 40-some**  **10 percent. On all the current levels.**  **11 MR. WEISS: I'm sorry. Did you say**  **12 47 or 40-some?**  **13 MR. LEVY: Forty-something, like 42.**  **14 I mean, it's a simple calculation but I**  **15 haven't done it.**  **16 MR. WEISS: Okay. Thank you.**  **17 MR. HAGERMAN: Hey, Emanuel, this is**  **18 Joe Hagerman again. Do we know what the, and**  **19 I know we could out this value by doing some**  **20 math and looking at our spreadsheet again.**  **21 But maybe just a ballpark figure here. Do we**  **22 know what the relative cost difference between** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 meeting your Zone 1 versus your Zone 2,**  **2 particularly in those southern states?**  **3 Like I understand what you're saying**  **4 that you're trying to address affordability,**  **5 which, you know, I fully support. But is it**  **6 actually cheaper to meet a Zone 1 than a Zone**  **7 2? And how much cheaper is it?**  **8 MR. LEVY: Is it less expensive to**  **9 meet Zone 1 than Zone 2, is that the question?**  **10 MR. HAGERMAN: Yes. And how much**  **11 less expensive? You follow the question?**  **12 MR. LEVY: I don't want to go ahead**  **13 --**  **14 MR. HAGERMAN: The reason I said that**  **15 is because I remember in some of the tables it**  **16 looked like in some climate zones, meeting the**  **17 different zones actually, you know, costed**  **18 more in Climate Zone 1 than Climate Zone 2.**  **19 But I don't know if that's because the**  **20 baseline, you know, what the baseline was or**  **21 that -- Do you understand the question?**  **22 MR. LEVY: Are all the --** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. HAGERMAN: If we're going to say**  **2 it's more affordable let's just verify that**  **3 fact that it indeed is more affordable, that's**  **4 my point. Right?**  **5 MR. ROY: This is Robin. I think we**  **6 should also say it's a lower first class, when**  **7 you say it's more affordable. Because I**  **8 looked at it, that's really the right way to**  **9 characterize it.**  **10 MR. RAMIREZ: Emanuel, I love what**  **11 you've put out here. Sorry, am I getting in**  **12 front of Lowell? I did not mean to do that.**  **13 PARTICIPANT: Lowell's been patient.**  **14 MR. UNGAR: Yes, I want to say for**  **15 the most part I think this map makes a lot of**  **16 sense. I wonder in the North whether it's**  **17 worth having a separate fourth region. But**  **18 I'm certainly not opposed to it if it makes**  **19 sense.**  **20 I wonder if in New Mexico, where most**  **21 of the population I think is in the northern**  **22 part, whether it makes sense to put all of New** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 Mexico in the southern part.**  **2 And I guess whether it makes sense**  **3 for Arizona to be split. Again, I don't feel**  **4 strongly on those.**  **5 The South, those four states I think**  **6 that Joe mentioned, the same ones that I'm**  **7 looking at, really does concern me. I mean**  **8 most of those states would be in Region 2**  **9 according to the maps. I mean that would be,**  **10 if we were to follow the IECC and just adjust**  **11 slightly to follow state lines all of those**  **12 would go into the North. Sorry, into the**  **13 second region.**  **14 And I would be, you know, so that**  **15 would be fine. Just move those four states**  **16 into the second region would be okay with me.**  **17 If dividing them along the IECC line would be**  **18 okay with me.**  **19 If we're going to put them into a new**  **20 southern zone, we've created a new zone that**  **21 is not matching the IECC Zones 1 and 2. It is**  **22 some new client zone, then we would need to** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 adjust the Uo values to incorporate, you know,**  **2 you would have to average in the fact that**  **3 we're taking a large chunk of IECC Zone 3 and**  **4 then average in those Uo values and come up**  **5 with a new Uo value for the new southern**  **6 region.**  **7 And otherwise we just agreed to a set**  **8 of values and if we start saying okay we like**  **9 these values but we're going to move all of**  **10 the states into somewhere else where they**  **11 weren't in the analysis, then we're coming up**  **12 with a new set of Uo values. So that would be**  **13 my only thing would be to be consistent.**  **14 If we're going to look more to a**  **15 region let's change the Uo accordingly.**  **16 MR. LUBLINER: This is Mike Lubliner.**  **17 MR. RAMIREZ: Mike, hold on one**  **18 second and let me get Rob in and then --**  **19 MR. LUBLINER: Sure. Absolutely.**  **20 MR. ROY: I think I am echoing what**  **21 Lowell said, at least part of it. I like this**  **22 map and I like the idea of trying to get along** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 state lines where it helps. And I'm**  **2 particularly interested in the manufacturer's**  **3 views on their ability to, or the challenges**  **4 of making different product within a state and**  **5 how that's all managed.**  **6 I do note that in the -- And the Gulf**  **7 states are the ones that really stick out in**  **8 my thinking most of all. Because there is**  **9 such a difference Louisiana and the wonderful**  **10 climate there and upstate. Right? And across**  **11 the rest of those.**  **12 And you can see also that the**  **13 manufacturers are, I think, are already**  **14 dealing with differences within the Gulf**  **15 states already for the wind loads. Right? If**  **16 you look at the HUD wind maps, they have 1, 2**  **17 and 3 in each of those Gulf states. I mean**  **18 they're already dealing with different**  **19 product.**  **20 I'm not sure how difficult that**  **21 proves to be or what sort of issues. But it**  **22 raises at least the question of whether this** 

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### 1 is a particular challenge for them to manage **2 in a particular -- I'd love to hear the view 3 on it.**  **4 If it isn't such a big challenge I 5 think it makes sense to stick with something**  **6 that's closer to IECC just given that they 7 have such different weather characteristics.**  **8 MR. RAMIREZ: Let me get Michael and 9 then Mark.**  **10 MR. LUBLINER: Yes, Mike Lubliner 11 here. Yes, I kind of agree with what's been**  **12 said. I don't know if we should be 13 arbitrarily adjusting the climate zones based**  **14 on the fact it's different than what we just 15 did in the analysis.**  **16 And I would be interested in knowing 17 what the costs are, the basis of the cost**  **18 savings for the supportability index that is 19 justifying the change in the climate zone**  **20 here. So I'm concerned about that. 21 The large percentage of homes, some**  **22 of us have a value system that affordability**

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### 1 and these entry-level home buyers should have **2 a more efficient home. We can agree to 3 disagree on that value. But I do think we**  **4 need some justification for moving these 5 technical justification, but it's a good**  **6 start. 7 MR. ROY: I think, Emanuel, I think**  **8 I can fill in here. I just looked at the R 9 numbers, these are pretty close to, I think,**  **10 what the costs are. 11 For single section home, if all those**  **12 states now in Zone 1 would be lifted up to 13 Zone 2 instead of in Zone 1, incremental cost**  **14 per single section home would be $2,751. And 15 for a multi-section home would be $3,975 in**  **16 cost increase. So it's somewhere around six 17 to seven percent increased cost.**  **18 MR. UNGAR: From Zone 1 to Zone 2? 19 MR. LEVY: To move, for example**  **20 Alabama and Mississippi into Zone 2 the 21 increase of cost over current construction,**  **22 current HUD construction, 28 percent, almost**

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 $4,000 for a multi-section.**  **2 MR. HAGERMAN: Yes, the question**  **3 would then be do you have to subtract what it**  **4 would cost to take the current HUD home from**  **5 where it is now and put it into the IECC**  **6 Climate Zone Number 1, and that differential**  **7 is the answer, right?**  **8 MR. LUBLINER: Yes, I'm tracking Joe.**  **9 Mike Lubliner.**  **10 MR. LEVY: I'm sorry, Joe, what**  **11 differential? Between what?**  **12 MR. ROY: You have to, what we're**  **13 asking for is the price difference by moving**  **14 the current HUD code to IECC Climate Zone 3**  **15 minus moving a similar home from the current**  **16 HUD code to IECC Climate Zone 1 or 2, doesn't**  **17 really matter, what that differential in price**  **18 is. It's not, there's no way that it's as big**  **19 a number as what you just said. Right guys?**  **20 I mean, right?**  **21 I mean somebody else do the math real**  **22 quick. Then we'll really know if it's an** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 increase or a decrease. I mean we really**  **2 don't know if it's increase or decrease now,**  **3 right?**  **4 MR. UNGAR: Between 3 and 2?**  **5 MR. LACEY: I can quote those**  **6 numbers.**  **7 MR. LEVY: Well here's the numbers.**  **8 I think what we were just asked is what is the**  **9 cost to move from .087 to .070? You know the**  **10 single and the double?**  **11 MR. MENDLEN: Yes.**  **12 MR. LEVY: Is that the question?**  **13 MR. HAGERMAN: Correct.**  **14 MR. LEVY: Okay. So the cost of**  **15 building a home in zone, in Alabama let's say,**  **16 single section home in Zone 1 on the new map**  **17 would $1,628 versus the $2,751 if you add the**  **18 zones for requirement. So the difference**  **19 between those two numbers is about $1,120.**  **20 So to move a single section home from**  **21 1 into 2 will cost an additional $1,123 for**  **22 total costs. And the total cost would be** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 $2,751. Does that make sense?**  **2 MR. HAGERMAN: Yes. I think you can**  **3 get all those values by going to your Sheet 4,**  **4 right?**  **5 MR. LEVY: Correct. That's what I'm**  **6 working from.**  **7 MR. HAGERMAN: Okay. Great.**  **8 MR. RAMIREZ: I'm sorry. Right here,**  **9 Mark and then Keith. Keith?**  **10 MR. DENNIS: I have a question on**  **11 Zone 4 as well, but on Zone 1 I mean, you**  **12 know, I'd love to see people getting into**  **13 houses, new homes, in those states I think**  **14 from existing homes. Especially any policies**  **15 that we could get to get the old homes out.**  **16 And I think the lower the first cost**  **17 and the more incremental value we get in terms**  **18 of energy savings the better it's going to be**  **19 for state governments to help subsidize it.**  **20 So, you know, I like the map the way**  **21 it's drawn there, I think that that's a good**  **22 solution to affordability. And it gets us a** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 long way everywhere else in the country and**  **2 there as well. I think it actually would be**  **3 more beneficial to have a lower cost product**  **4 there.**  **5 But in Zone 4 the question I have is**  **6 how big is that market and is it big enough**  **7 that people will build there or is it going to**  **8 cause any cost constraints? I don't know**  **9 because I, you know, I don't know the**  **10 manufacturing that much. But it seems like,**  **11 what's that North Dakota, you know, are they**  **12 going to be building special houses for just**  **13 North Dakota?**  **14 And then again I have a question**  **15 about, it looks like with Wisconsin, I mean**  **16 it's sort of like having two zones again. Is**  **17 it worth having that extra zone there to split**  **18 up a state. You know, it's another question.**  **19 Or just to single out, you know, North Dakota,**  **20 which is kind of sad by itself.**  **21 So those are questions. I don't know**  **22 what the sales volume is in that area.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. LEVY: Keith, I think I can fill**  **2 in -- This Emanuel. I think I can fill in**  **3 some details here.**  **4 Wisconsin had only 237 homes in all**  **5 of 2012. They had 306 in 2013. So there's**  **6 couple hundred homes in Wisconsin. North**  **7 Dakota had last year 775 homes. And Minnesota**  **8 had 437. So, you know, we're not talking**  **9 about big numbers here.**  **10 MR. DENNIS: Is it worth it? Is**  **11 there a balance, for manufacturers, is there**  **12 a balance between volume and having a whole**  **13 other standard? Or is there no bounds at all?**  **14 MR. WEISS: I think Keith raised a**  **15 valid issue. You might get in a situation**  **16 where just it's just it's not going to be**  **17 viable to for at least the small number of**  **18 homes going into that zone. Is there that**  **19 much of a difference between 59, 56, 51, 50?**  **20 MR. SCHNEIDER: This is Peter from**  **21 Vermont, I'll contribute the northeast to**  **22 Climate Zone 4.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. WEISS: That's one home in the**  **2 peer pool?**  **3 MR. RAMIREZ: All right. Let's get**  **4 Lois and then Joe and then Lowell.**  **5 MS. STARKEY: I just -- On behalf of**  **6 the retailers and the rest of the industry,**  **7 aside from those who are sitting around this**  **8 table, and I think they would agree with me.**  **9 I think that this map is more marketable to**  **10 the industry in terms of trying to sell this.**  **11 And I know that's, you know, but I think that**  **12 it does adequately address the affordability**  **13 issue.**  **14 With respect to the zones that we**  **15 agreed to and the U values on the IECC I**  **16 thought we were, I guess I voted for that**  **17 because I said this is a true reflection of**  **18 the U values in those IECC zones. But it**  **19 didn't have any really impact on, I wasn't**  **20 voting to say that I'm going to put those,**  **21 that those zones have to be reflected in a new**  **22 map necessarily.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 Because I think we do need to take**  **2 into consideration other issues. And I think**  **3 when you talk about a 27 percent increase in**  **4 those states where for the most part I'd like**  **5 to see who's adopted the IECC in those states.**  **6 Because I would suspect that the**  **7 manufactured housing industry will be building**  **8 to the highest energy efficiency code, for the**  **9 most part, across the board. Because I think**  **10 the last time I looked at the map for IECC**  **11 that part of the country is behind, woefully**  **12 behind, in terms of energy efficiency for the**  **13 residential market.**  **14 So I think it's a start. This makes**  **15 sense. Yes, and you can correct me if I'm**  **16 wrong. Yes, because I haven't looked at the**  **17 map since last year, but anyways I think this**  **18 is a good start. And that we should keep the**  **19 map the way it is.**  **20 MR. RAMIREZ: Let me get Joe, Mark**  **21 then Eric.**  **22 MR. HAGERMAN: Yes, I'm just still** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 struggling with this, the move of the southern**  **2 states to the .087, .084. And when I look at,**  **3 Emanuel, your page 4 it looks like it costs**  **4 $2,000 to meet a .085. And it looks like it**  **5 costs $1,900.24 to reach a point .067.**  **6 So I think actually that move right**  **7 there looks like it's costing the unit more**  **8 and then they're not getting the savings.**  **9 Right?**  **10 MR. UNGAR: Those are different.**  **11 Aren't those different HUD baselines?**  **12 MR. HAGERMAN: Oh I don't know that.**  **13 I mean, I don't know, aren't they already in**  **14 HUD Zone 2? I mean there's a lot of baselines**  **15 moving here.**  **16 MR. UNGAR: They'd be HUD.**  **17 MR. LUBLINER: This is Mike Lubliner.**  **18 I'm kind of tracking where Joe's going with**  **19 the cost accounting. But I'd also like to**  **20 look at the savings amounts by this proposal**  **21 of the life cycle cost savings. I kind of**  **22 feel like we did make some attritions when** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 addressing affordability with using the**  **2 10-year analysis and also looking at a dual**  **3 single-wide and double-wide EOO.**  **4 So I'm not sure why we're making a**  **5 third concession. I would like to see what**  **6 the energy savings we're giving up is. Thank**  **7 you.**  **8 MR. HAGERMAN: Yes, I think, I mean**  **9 we might be flipping that from a negative**  **10 number, I mean from a black number to a red**  **11 number by making the change. So you're**  **12 actually not addressing affordability. You're**  **13 doing the opposite.**  **14 MR. LUBLINER: Yes, I wouldn't want**  **15 to do that either.**  **16 PARTICIPANT: Double count**  **17 affordability.**  **18 MR. HAGERMAN: Yes, that's like, yes,**  **19 this is a good point. We don't want to**  **20 double count our affordability here. Right?**  **21 MR. RAMIREZ: All right. Let me do**  **22 Mark, Eric and then Lois.** 

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### 1 PARTICIPANT: Try again. **2 MR. RAMIREZ: Mark. 3 MR. WEISS: Just to say again, you**  **4 know, I hear all the discussion. I mean this 5 is something I don't know, unfortunately I**  **6 don't have any members here participating in 7 the committee, these are all things I'm going**  **8 to have to see about with our folks and get 9 their input on. I don't feel comfortable**  **10 going out on a limb making statements without 11 hearing their direct input.**  **12 MR. DENNIS: Is there a way to track 13 down what number is right? Because we heard**  **14 $1,100 more expensive, now you're saying $500 15 --**  **16 MR. HAGERMAN: It's $75 cheaper. 17 MR. DENNIS: So I don't know, which**  **18 one do we trust here? I don't, you know. 19 MR. HAGERMAN: I usually trust**  **20 myself. 21 MR. DENNIS: But you work for DOE so**  **22 we can't trust you.**

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 (Simultaneous speaking.)**  **2 MR. HAGERMAN: I agree with you.**  **3 Before we really vote on this I think we've**  **4 got to do some more numbers if you're going to**  **5 make a substantial change in drawing these**  **6 zones. Because that change goes against**  **7 everything else that we've been talking about.**  **8 Right?**  **9 MR. RAMIREZ: Who's on the line?**  **10 MR. LEVY: This is Emanuel.**  **11 MR. RAMIREZ: Go ahead, Emanuel, then**  **12 we'll get Mark.**  **13 MR. LEVY: I just wanted to clarify**  **14 what we're talking about here. Those states,**  **15 Louisiana, Alabama, Mississippi, Georgia,**  **16 South Carolina, are currently all in HUD Zone**  **17 1. That's an .116 Uo value. We're talking**  **18 about taking those down to .087, .084, right.**  **19 So there's obviously an incremental cost to**  **20 get there.**  **21 And then the question you were asking**  **22 me is an if we take it down further to .070,** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 .060, is that jump cost effective? Is that**  **2 the question you're asking? Because there's**  **3 barely any cost to get here.**  **4 MR. DENNIS: Yes, maybe you just**  **5 answered it. On Page 4 you list HUD Zone 1,**  **6 IECC Zone 2, is $2,000. And the same unit HUD**  **7 Zone 1, IECC Zone 3 is $2,700. So maybe the**  **8 difference is just $700. I think that sounds**  **9 correct.**  **10 MR. LEVY: And what's the life cycle**  **11 savings?**  **12 MR. RAMIREZ: We'd have to pull that**  **13 up.**  **14 MR. DENNIS: Well the savings are**  **15 going to be less because they're further north**  **16 too.**  **17 MR. HAGERMAN: The question is is the**  **18 $750, you know, cost effective over the**  **19 10-year term? That's the only question.**  **20 MR. RAMIREZ: Let me --**  **21 MR. DENNIS: It would less cost**  **22 effective than somebody in say southern** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 Florida, where that's what that zone's**  **2 designed for. Right? The warmer the climate**  **3 the more --**  **4 MR. HAGERMAN: Yes I mean, you also**  **5 have the late zones too, and it's just**  **6 complicated.**  **7 MR. DENNIS: Complicated. Okay.**  **8 MR. RAMIREZ: Let me ask the group**  **9 this. So it really seems like the sticking**  **10 point on this math is what Ted has outlined**  **11 over here, those areas right there. Is that**  **12 fair to say?**  **13 MR. HAGERMAN: Those two zones? The**  **14 Number 4 and Number 1?**  **15 MR. RAMIREZ: What was highlighted.**  **16 No, I don't think so much for 4, but Zone 1 is**  **17 highlighted. Is that the major sticking**  **18 point? Because I mean with the number of**  **19 houses that are sold up in 4 up there I think**  **20 that that could easily be resolved one way or**  **21 another. Right? I'm not viewing that as too**  **22 big of an issue.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 What I'm hearing though is that there**  **2 may be some concerns down there in 1. And is**  **3 there a way, if we're talking about**  **4 affordability concerns, and that would also**  **5 kind of going to the heart of some of the**  **6 discussion that we were having with the Uo**  **7 values earlier, is there a combination of**  **8 those two that can make both of issues**  **9 acceptable to get a result? Do you understand**  **10 what I'm asking?**  **11 In other words, a combination of, you**  **12 know, like David had said, if we're going to**  **13 go for one single number why don't we make it**  **14 the lower number. I'm sorry, the higher**  **15 number. Make it the higher number.**  **16 And if that's the case, does that**  **17 help with affordability issues if all these**  **18 Zone 1s that's circled are now under Zone 2.**  **19 Right? But with the higher numbers that David**  **20 was talking about. Or some combination of**  **21 that to make those two issues fall into line.**  **22 MR. DENNIS: You know, we are just a** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 bunch of people in a room, but you know I**  **2 think we should think very hard about whether**  **3 we're going to have somebody spend $750 on a**  **4 house and if it is really cost effective. Or**  **5 is this just some kind of thing that we're**  **6 looking at a map and doing it?**  **7 I mean this is a big thing for**  **8 people. And are we saving that much energy?**  **9 And, you know, is it really worth it to affect**  **10 these people's lives. So I don't know that,**  **11 I don't feel comfortable asking somebody to**  **12 spend $750 on the information that we have.**  **13 That I have.**  **14 MR. HAGERMAN: Well just real quick,**  **15 the flip side of the argument is also true.**  **16 I mean you're going to ask somebody to spend,**  **17 you know, the $2,000 to get to the .087 and**  **18 you don't know if that's cost effective or**  **19 not.**  **20 MR. DENNIS: I know. I'm not**  **21 comfortable with any of this.**  **22 PARTICIPANT: That's what he's** 

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### 1 saying. **2 MR. DENNIS: But I think that if 3 we're doing the common sense thing, we're**  **4 talking about plugging holes in floors and 5 putting insulation in, you know, and we're**  **6 doing as good as we can, when we have a 7 decision like this, you know, it's kind of,**  **8 especially in a place where affordability is 9 the biggest issue and it could be the**  **10 difference between getting people in a house 11 or not.**  **12 You know, I think we should tend to 13 err on being very cautious about us deciding**  **14 $750 for the lowest income people buying a 15 house. I mean, there's other places to save**  **16 energy. 17 MR. HAGERMAN: But you don't know if**  **18 this is cautious. 19 MR. DENNIS: That's part of the**  **20 point. 21 MR. HAGERMAN: This could actually be**  **22 more --**

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. DENNIS: It's not cautious**  **2 because we don't know. I mean, that's the**  **3 point. If we knew, you know, you were saying**  **4 it's going to save them $45 just on the first**  **5 cost and we were sure of that I'd say, you**  **6 know, we don't have to be cautious about that.**  **7 We're saying, you know, there's a lot**  **8 of unknowns here, it's a big decision. You**  **9 know, it's kind of like we're just throwing it**  **10 around. It's like what mood are we in, who do**  **11 we like in the room, stuff like that. Which**  **12 is not how we should be making decisions about**  **13 things that can affect people's lives.**  **14 So, you know, I understand that**  **15 numbers on a piece of paper, you can get the**  **16 numbers a little bit better but think hard**  **17 about what you're doing here.**  **18 MR. LUBLINER: This is Mike Lubliner.**  **19 MR. RAMIREZ: Hold on a second, Mike.**  **20 Let's get Eric, Lois and then --**  **21 MR. LACEY: Mike can go first, that's**  **22 fine.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MS. STARKEY: Yes, I'd like to say,**  **2 I mean we need to think too about what the**  **3 market, the state of the industry, the market**  **4 that we work in. We work with retailers who**  **5 this is going to be a learning curve for them.**  **6 I just feel like we ought to, unless it's just**  **7 going to be a huge, maybe we need to get some**  **8 more numbers up there.**  **9 MR. RAMIREZ: All right. Let's get**  **10 Michael then Eric.**  **11 MR. LUBLINER: Yes, so I think we're**  **12 going by two different rules here. I thought**  **13 what we were doing is coming up with lowest**  **14 life cycle cost and then assessing the**  **15 affordability index.**  **16 And we had done that by going with a**  **17 10-year analysis and we went further again by**  **18 suggesting maybe we have dual paths for the**  **19 single wide, which is really the**  **20 affordability.**  **21 To hook up a double-wide costs way**  **22 more than $700. So we should just focus on** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 single wides possibly in this area.**  **2 But also I want to point out that**  **3 this is not just about cost effectiveness to**  **4 the entry, marginal credit score customer.**  **5 It's also about this is the largest production**  **6 area in the country with the most amount of**  **7 coal, fire and power plants.**  **8 And other benefits in national**  **9 security and climate change and we shouldn't**  **10 be throwing this out without a very good look**  **11 at this because this makes a big difference in**  **12 the number of power plants and peak load**  **13 issues and those plants are considerations.**  **14 If we're just going to focus on just**  **15 this small affordability index and go beyond**  **16 what we've already talked about to address it**  **17 then we need to think about the other**  **18 ramifications like the environmental**  **19 externality such as climate change and energy**  **20 sustainability and energy independence.**  **21 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. Let's go to Eric**  **22 Barbour and then David.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. LACEY: This is Eric from RECA.**  **2 You know we're talking about affordability.**  **3 We had already kind of decided, even though a**  **4 lot of us disagreed with some of the**  **5 assumptions and I thought some of the**  **6 assumptions were far too conservative, I**  **7 thought we all kind of decided on what was**  **8 cost effective and what was affordable. You**  **9 know, based on the 10-year and the 30-year**  **10 split.**  **11 Even though nobody was perfectly**  **12 happy with it, you know, we kind of came to a**  **13 compromise on that. And to jump off into a**  **14 new area like this where we're saying we're**  **15 going to apply yet another measure of**  **16 affordability here, without anything really to**  **17 back it, is concerning to me.**  **18 Now I'm not suggesting that we should**  **19 PNNL off and Navigant off to do affordability**  **20 for these four states, an additional analysis.**  **21 But I think we could be here forever trying**  **22 that out for every single state and every** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 locality.**  **2 I thought we were fairly close on**  **3 this and I think it makes sense to stick with**  **4 the IECC zones. But I hate to take kind of a**  **5 broad brush and say well this will make it**  **6 more affordable without knowing that.**  **7 It just seems like a really big leap**  **8 based on the level of detail with which we've**  **9 attacked the affordability and life cycle cost**  **10 effectiveness issues for the last two and a**  **11 half months.**  **12 MR. RAMIREZ: Let me get Mark and --**  **13 MR. LUBLINER: This is Mike --**  **14 MR. RAMIREZ: I'm sorry, who wants to**  **15 speak on the line?**  **16 MR. SANTANA: Manny.**  **17 MR. RAMIREZ: Let me get Mark and**  **18 then David then you.**  **19 MR. SANTANA: All right.**  **20 MR. WEISS: That's okay. He can go**  **21 ahead.**  **22 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. David then** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 Michael.**  **2 MR. SANTANA: Manny.**  **3 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay.**  **4 MR. TOMPOS: I don't really feel like**  **5 we're negotiating here. But I think we need**  **6 to have Lubliner go off and create a**  **7 subcommittee to prove to me that the**  **8 manufactured housing industry is creating**  **9 global warming. I think that would be good**  **10 for his time.**  **11 Again, affordability is not, I do not**  **12 agree that affordability is the 10-year return**  **13 on energy efficiency. It goes back to first**  **14 cost and that's all we're trying to do here is**  **15 get a little bit of reduced first costs.**  **16 And I think it's pointless to sit in**  **17 here a whole lot longer because all we keep**  **18 going through is well, IECC, let's just do**  **19 exactly what that says and we'll just deal**  **20 with ramifications of whether or not people**  **21 can afford these houses later. That's how I**  **22 feel right now.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. WEISS: I'll reclaim my time.**  **2 You know, I have the privilege of looking at**  **3 these production numbers every month as they**  **4 come out. And really the very best of the**  **5 industry is from here over here. You agree on**  **6 that?**  **7 And this is where the production is.**  **8 This is where the shipments are. I mean, you**  **9 have substantial number in California. But I**  **10 mean the southeast quadrant of the country is**  **11 where we're talking about.**  **12 We're not talking about another**  **13 metric of affordability, we just want to nail**  **14 down the numbers. Okay? And make sure that**  **15 what we're talking about is accurate. I don't**  **16 know if I agree with any of this. But I know**  **17 that we need accurate numbers.**  **18 And I'd like to thank Keith because**  **19 what he was saying goes back to what I said I**  **20 think the first day we were here, which is**  **21 that this is not some dry, technical exercise.**  **22 We're dealing with people's lives here and we** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 need to be constantly aware of that.**  **2 MR. RAMIREZ: Michael then Manny.**  **3 MR. WEISS: All right. Now something**  **4 that I don't think a lot of people in the room**  **5 know is that this is not necessarily a level**  **6 playing field in regards to energy.**  **7 And by saying that what I mean is,**  **8 you know, we're kind of comparing ourselves,**  **9 or trying to, to the stick built industry and**  **10 to the modular industry. And even though it**  **11 was mentioned earlier today, I don't know if**  **12 everybody caught it, but most of the states**  **13 don't automatically accept the latest versions**  **14 of the code.**  **15 Just to give you guys an example,**  **16 down there in that region, that southern**  **17 region right now that's creating so much**  **18 excitement, the state of Alabama is currently**  **19 using the 2009 IECC. The state of Georgia is**  **20 using the 2009. The state of Mississippi is**  **21 using the 2006. And the state of Texas is**  **22 using the 2009.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 So if you go in and look at the 2009**  **2 IECC the requirements are in that zone, Region**  **3 3, is R30 for the roof, R13 for the wall and**  **4 R19 for the floor.**  **5 So if we go back and look at Page 5**  **6 of Emanuel's proposal earlier that we pretty**  **7 much accepted, it also shows R30 in the roof,**  **8 R19 in the floor. And actually R21 in the**  **9 walls. So in essence if we accept that we are**  **10 going to be building the most energy efficient**  **11 homes in that southern region. And I think**  **12 that means something.**  **13 MR. UNGAR: Sorry, can I clarify**  **14 something. I think we would all be, the way**  **15 you just read it if I understand it, are for**  **16 the IECC Zone 3.**  **17 MR. WEISS: That's correct.**  **18 MR. UNGAR: And I think we'd be happy**  **19 if those states were under those, you know,**  **20 that would be perfectly acceptable to us.**  **21 That way we, at least, I should speak for**  **22 myself. I would be happy to go with those** 

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### 1 values for those states. **2 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes. I don't know if 3 that was, is that accurate then? The numbers**  **4 that Michael Wade was using? 5 MR. WEISS: Those numbers aren't**  **6 quoted on what the mod builders are using. I 7 pulled those off NTA's website just a few**  **8 moments ago. 9 PARTICIPANT: Must be right.**  **10 MR. RAMIREZ: R30 for the ceiling, 21 11 for the wall and 19 for the floor.**  **12 MR. WEISS: It's 13 for the walls, 13 13 for the walls, is what's in the 2009 IECC.**  **14 MR. WEISS: I'm sorry, that's not 15 what you said the first time.**  **16 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. Let me get Manny 17 and then Eric.**  **18 MR. SANTANA: Yes, Manny with Cavco 19 here. You know I'd like to echo what Keith**  **20 said. I think Keith's comments were spot on. 21 I agree with everything he said.**  **22 And, you know, I think when we use**

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 the word affordability we don't just mean**  **2 first cost to the home buyer and we don't just**  **3 mean life cycle costs, be it 10 or 30 year**  **4 increments. It's got to be a combination of**  **5 both.**  **6 And I think the compromise that was**  **7 on the screen is a good one because, you know,**  **8 another thing I'd like to add is that unlike**  **9 the HUD code that had an energy update and**  **10 then they didn't update it for decades, you**  **11 know, I don't think that's going to be the**  **12 case with DOE.**  **13 You know, this thing is going to be**  **14 a drastic change to get from what that region**  **15 currently builds to these levels here. And**  **16 it's going to be much harder to increase the**  **17 U zone if we see that it has a devastating**  **18 effect. It's going to be much harder to do**  **19 that than it will be to, I guess, go into it**  **20 with a tiered kind of approach.**  **21 If you go into it with these zones,**  **22 with these values, and see what happens to the** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 industry. See what happens to the product.**  **2 You know, evaluate it.**  **3 We need to evaluate it because we**  **4 could run all the analysis that we want but**  **5 these are all based on assumptions, you know,**  **6 our best guess assumptions. You know, our**  **7 swagged assumptions that none of us know**  **8 what's going to happen.**  **9 I think that this approach is going**  **10 to let us evaluate it and if we see that there**  **11 are no issues and that we can tighten it up**  **12 even more, you know, in three years have at it**  **13 again. But, you know, go into it with as much**  **14 as you can get right out of the gate. I think**  **15 that approach is flawed.**  **16 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. Eric.**  **17 MR. LEVY: It's Emanuel. Could I add**  **18 a comment?**  **19 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, go ahead, Emanuel.**  **20 MR. LEVY: I just want to kind of**  **21 bring us back to what we do now which is that**  **22 for those states that we're debating right now** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 the cost increase for the single-section home**  **2 is going to be $2,000 to just get into what is**  **3 shown on the screen, old Zone 1 to the new**  **4 Zone 1.**  **5 If we then said they had to meet Zone**  **6 2 requirements, it would add an additional**  **7 $750 to $800 depending on whether it's a**  **8 single- or multi-section and that represents**  **9 about a 40-some-odd, 41, 42 percent increase.**  **10 What we'd be saying in effect is that**  **11 if we move those states into Zone 2, the least**  **12 expensive market would be responsible for the**  **13 biggest leap in efficiency in the entire**  **14 country.**  **15 So we're putting the greatest burden**  **16 on the people who can less, first cost burden**  **17 on the people who can least afford the**  **18 increase in cost.**  **19 What we really ought to be looking at**  **20 since the life cycle cost did not look at any**  **21 locations in any of these states, we probably**  **22 should take a place like Birmingham, Alabama,** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 and look to see whether the jump from 0.084 to**  **2 0.068 is cost effective. That's what I think**  **3 we're talking about here. As the tire meets**  **4 the road.**  **5 MR. ROY: It's Robin. I concur with**  **6 that. It'd be lovely to take a look at**  **7 Birmingham, see if it's cost effective.**  **8 MS. HOFFMAN: Right.**  **9 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. Eric.**  **10 MR. HAGERMAN: Hold on. Before we**  **11 move off that point, it says Birmingham single**  **12 section from a 0.087 to a 0.070 and a double**  **13 section from --**  **14 MR. DENNIS: Confirming that from**  **15 Charleston, South Carolina too.**  **16 MR. HAGERMAN: I don't know, to be**  **17 honest with you I don't know what cities they**  **18 have the weather files for so I'll get as**  **19 close as I can, all right? I mean, that's all**  **20 I can do, right? Because they have really**  **21 detailed weather files for some of these**  **22 cities. But Birmingham and you said --** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MS. HOFFMAN: Charleston.**  **2 MR. HAGERMAN: Charleston.**  **3 MR. DENNIS: Somewhere in South**  **4 Carolina.**  **5 MR. HAGERMAN: Okay. Somewhere in**  **6 South --**  **7 MR. DENNIS: They are varied.**  **8 MR. HAGERMAN: Okay. All right.**  **9 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay, Eric.**  **10 MR. HAGERMAN: You're not getting**  **11 that today, though. Sorry.**  **12 MR. LACEY: So I gather this**  **13 conversation is going to have to continue. I**  **14 just wanted to speak to one thing because it's**  **15 come up twice now and it's something that we**  **16 deal with on a daily basis and that is the**  **17 state adoption of building energy codes.**  **18 My organization's mission is to**  **19 promote the adoption of the most recent**  **20 edition of the IECC.**  **21 And you are correct that it's a bit**  **22 of a patchwork around the country but I want** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 to caution us not to start setting this**  **2 standard based on the local rates of adoption**  **3 because I point to California's Title 24 or**  **4 Oregon or Washington's versions of the IECC**  **5 and they are going to far exceed the**  **6 efficiency of this code. Florida also.**  **7 And so, you know, I get that. I**  **8 understand that. I wish every state had**  **9 already adopted the 2015 IECC but, you know,**  **10 Congress gave DOE a charge here and I think,**  **11 you know, I think we found that it was cost**  **12 effective, at least the mix of components and**  **13 requirements that we put together was cost**  **14 effective, at least in my opinion it looks**  **15 cost effective, and we had to go forward with**  **16 that.**  **17 I totally hear the issue. I wish the**  **18 state of Mississippi by its constitution could**  **19 require a state-wide residential energy code**  **20 but they cannot and so, you know.**  **21 Fortunately HUD can regulate some of**  **22 these things and if it is cost effective, you** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 know, we should move forward with it. Anyway,**  **2 just needed to speak to that because I don't**  **3 want to get derailed by this where I talk all**  **4 day about all 50 states.**  **5 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay, but you won't.**  **6 Okay.**  **7 MR. LACEY: I won't.**  **8 MS. STARKEY: But I just want to say,**  **9 you know, I think that, you know, have we**  **10 really, really had the debate about what's**  **11 cost effective?**  **12 Yes, we agreed on the ten-year**  **13 residual but we really didn't get to some of**  **14 these issues that I think Emanuel addressed**  **15 pretty clearly in terms of what that really**  **16 means, and Manny, what that means in terms of**  **17 from where we're going now.**  **18 I think that we, my opinion is we**  **19 really didn't have a debate about that and so,**  **20 you know, we just said okay, well, ten years**  **21 is better than 30, you know.**  **22 But, you know, what is the return on** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 investment, you know? Okay, we said ten**  **2 years, the average time a manufactured home**  **3 owner stays in their home. I don't know.**  **4 Yes.**  **5 MALE PARTICIPANT: All right, so one**  **6 more --**  **7 MR. RAMIREZ: Let me jump in because**  **8 it seems like in order for us to finalize some**  **9 discussion on here we're going to have to get**  **10 an idea of what the true cost and -- We have**  **11 an idea of the cost, was that $740, but what's**  **12 in question is the savings difference in that**  **13 area there.**  **14 And I think we need some of that**  **15 information in order to finalize a discussion.**  **16 I think that's kind of going to Keith's point.**  **17 Let's not go by conventional wisdom. Let's**  **18 looks at some data. Let's figure out what**  **19 we're really dealing with, right?**  **20 How do you all feel about tabling**  **21 this discussion till we get some additional**  **22 information, then we can continue it in** 

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### 1 Denver? Want to go with that? **2 MR. SANTANA: Are we able to 3 establish -- Cavco here. What about getting**  **4 a gauge of thumbs and see where we're at? 5 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay. How would you**  **6 phrase that about where we're -- Where do you 7 think we're at, Manny?**  **8 MR. SANTANA: Well, on the proposed 9 map, the amended and proposed map that's on**  **10 the screen. 11 MS. HOFFMAN: Oh, okay.**  **12 MR. RAMIREZ: Want to see if this is 13 acceptable?**  **14 MR. SANTANA: Yes. 15 MR. UNGAR: With the Uo values.**  **16 MR. RAMIREZ: With these Uo? With 17 the two values?**  **18 MR. SANTANA: Well, the two values 19 have already been addressed. I thought we**  **20 voted to accept the two values. 21 MR. RAMIREZ: We did but there was**  **22 some question as far as, because they had two**

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 consensus votes. The two-value one was**  **2 stronger than the single one but I don't know**  **3 if it was completely locked in because of that**  **4 but --**  **5 MR. SANTANA: Okay. Well, you know,**  **6 the reason for the request is, you know, when**  **7 we do a thumb vote, we get, well, one, you**  **8 identify who is a down thumb vote and, two,**  **9 they get a chance to, you know, express why**  **10 they have such a strong opinion.**  **11 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, okay. Keith, did**  **12 you have something?**  **13 MR. DENNIS: Yes, I mean, I don't**  **14 know if this will help because it looks like**  **15 people are saying, but maybe if we said don't**  **16 pay attention to either the two or the average**  **17 Uo values because that's a separate issue that**  **18 we have already something so somebody doesn't**  **19 want to vote against this just because we**  **20 don't know if it's going to be with two values**  **21 versus the average value.**  **22 MR. RAMIREZ: So you're talking about** 

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### 1 just the lines. **2 MR. DENNIS: Just the lines. And 3 then I would also ask if we could just --**  **4 MS. HOFFMAN: The zones. 5 MR. DENNIS: -- maybe forget about**  **6 Zone 4 for now because we haven't really 7 talked about that.**  **8 MR. RAMIREZ: So the question is -- 9 MR. DENNIS: That Zone 1 --**  **10 MR. RAMIREZ: 1, 2 and 3 accepted -- 11 MR. DENNIS: Right.**  **12 MR. RAMIREZ: -- as on Emanuel's map. 13 Lowell.**  **14 MR. UNGAR: Two things. One is I 15 said before I can accept Zone 1 if the Uo**  **16 values are proportionally representative of 17 the various IECC code zones that are included**  **18 in it, right? 19 And I don't know how that's going to**  **20 turn out but Joe had already proposed looking 21 at census data to say where are the zones and**  **22 then one could do an average, come up with an**

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 average Uo value that is going to be**  **2 somewhere, it will be much more than 0.07 but**  **3 will be less than 0.087.**  **4 The other thing, it's relatively**  **5 small but we haven't really talked about this**  **6 small part of Zone 1 that's in Arizona and I**  **7 have the same concern that people talked about**  **8 for having a Zone 4, that there's just not**  **9 enough homes.**  **10 Unless people are shipping from Texas**  **11 all the way to Arizona, I suspect there aren't**  **12 that many homes in that small little piece of**  **13 Arizona and whether it makes sense to have a**  **14 different climate zone for that small --**  **15 MR. DENNIS: It's not analogous**  **16 because it's not a limiting factor.**  **17 MR. UNGAR: What?**  **18 MR. DENNIS: It's not a constraint.**  **19 It's not a constraint like it is --**  **20 MR. UNGAR: Oh, they could use the**  **21 higher. That's true. You could use a higher**  **22 one.** 

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### 1 MR. WEISS: That's where Manny lives. **2 (Laughter) 3 (Simultaneous speaking)**  **4 MR. WEISS: Yes, you got potentially 5 a significant population there. I don't know**  **6 if that goes as far as Tucson but I mean, 7 that's --**  **8 (Simultaneous speaking) 9 MALE PARTICIPANT: It's hard to tell**  **10 from this map, but. 11 MR. SANTANA: You know, the climate**  **12 in Tucson is very representative of the 13 climate in that part of Arizona so, you know,**  **14 there are homes that go across the state but 15 the population centers are concentrated in**  **16 that area there, you know, and it is 17 consistent with the IECC.**  **18 MR. LEVY: I'll also interject that 19 Arizona had about 1,700 shipments last year,**  **20 about the same, for Mike Lubliner's benefit, 21 of the entire Northwest.**  **22 (Simultaneous speaking)**

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. UNGAR: Looking at the data I**  **2 have for Arizona for August 2013 through July**  **3 2014, it's 1,136. It's not that far different**  **4 from your number.**  **5 MR. LUBLINER: The only difference is**  **6 that 60 percent of the homes in the Northwest**  **7 are Energy Star and I don't think that's the**  **8 case down there. So the market's already**  **9 recognizing the value added of total**  **10 affordable housing and it hasn't achieved that**  **11 yet in Arizona in this industry.**  **12 MS. HOFFMAN: We have a request from**  **13 Manny to get kind of a showing of how you feel**  **14 about the map with an amendment not to involve**  **15 Zone 4 at the moment but to look at it as it**  **16 is and also not to, at this moment, look at**  **17 the single- and multi-segment values.**  **18 MS. DICKENS: Could I please ask a**  **19 question?**  **20 MR. RAMIREZ: Go ahead, Ishbel.**  **21 MS. DICKENS: This is Ishbel from**  **22 NMHOA. Just want to ask Keith, we're going to** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 vote on the map without the values. Why we're**  **2 excluding Zone 4 because the buildings we**  **3 agree that the other boundaries work for us.**  **4 What does that mean for Zone 4,**  **5 because it's still going to be that little**  **6 separate piece up there. So I'm just curious**  **7 why you would like that excluded from this**  **8 particular vote. Thank you.**  **9 MR. DENNIS: Well, I mean, it doesn't**  **10 really, I mean, I would just like, I think**  **11 it's a much less contentious issue and I'd**  **12 like to discuss it later but, you know, I'm**  **13 not, I think it would be, just the issue at**  **14 hand is Zone 1 and Zone 2. I think we could**  **15 look at Zone 4 and see if anyone cares**  **16 separately.**  **17 I'd like to talk to my members in**  **18 Minnesota, Great River Energy specifically,**  **19 just to see if that's going to be a problem**  **20 for them.**  **21 And also I'd like to know if the**  **22 manufacturers think that that would be an** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 issue with building a whole new code just for,**  **2 you know, a couple, I don't know, a hundred or**  **3 thousand units.**  **4 So I just thought it was a separate**  **5 issue. If we don't want to do it that way,**  **6 that's fine. But I think this issue's much**  **7 more important so it would be good to just**  **8 distill the issues one at a time.**  **9 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay.**  **10 MR. EZZO: It's Mark Ezzo. Can I**  **11 make a comment?**  **12 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, go ahead, Mark.**  **13 MR. EZZO: Manny, I'd like to just**  **14 revise your vote recommendation slightly in**  **15 that we vote on the map as it looks right now**  **16 including Zone 4 and including the Uo numbers.**  **17 I mean, these numbers represent a**  **18 huge energy efficiency leap from where we're**  **19 at today and I think Emanuel gave those**  **20 numbers out in percentages and they ranged**  **21 from I think high 20s to 40 percent over where**  **22 we're at today.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 And then in addition to that, we, you**  **2 know, we've heard that these numbers also**  **3 represent a level that's above the majority of**  **4 the country's current modular and site-built**  **5 housing.**  **6 So I think we've made some pretty big**  **7 strides here with this map as it is and I'm**  **8 just afraid if we vote on something and leave**  **9 out the Uo numbers or strike a zone, you could**  **10 dissect this thing to death forever and we'll**  **11 never get anywhere.**  **12 So my suggestion, Manny, would be**  **13 let's vote on it the way it looks as is with**  **14 the Uo numbers and including Zone 4. Thanks.**  **15 MR. DENNIS: It was actually Keith.**  **16 I'll withdraw my request then. That's fine if**  **17 that's what people want to do.**  **18 MR. HAGERMAN: I just did the numbers**  **19 and in the four states that we're kind of**  **20 talking about here, South Carolina, Georgia,**  **21 Alabama, Mississippi and Louisiana, by the HUD**  **22 shipments in 2013 that makes up 20 percent of** 

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### 1 the total population of units shipped so it **2 would affect a large portion of you. 3 So, I mean, to be honest with you, I**  **4 don't think I have enough data to vote so I'm 5 going to vote negative if we vote on this now**  **6 because I need to see the data, right? 7 MR. RAMIREZ: Let me get Mark --**  **8 MR. HAGERMAN: But that's just my -- 9 MR. RAMIREZ: Let me get Mark and**  **10 Robin. 11 MR. WEISS: Yes, I think that's**  **12 really what this comes down to. I mean, I'd 13 have to vote no just on being derivative with**  **14 the cost information that we've been talking 15 about.**  **16 But even if it weren't, again, I 17 don't know what my members would think of**  **18 this. It's something we'd have to consult on 19 and at this point we don't have data that Joe**  **20 considers reliable. It's, I mean, I can 21 consult with him generally on it but to get**  **22 beyond that it's difficult.**

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 So, you know, I don't think this is**  **2 something you can rush. I mean, this whole**  **3 issue has been kicking around a long time. I**  **4 just don't think we should be rushing it here,**  **5 particularly when you're dealing with such a**  **6 large population of potential home owners.**  **7 MR. RAMIREZ: Robin.**  **8 MR. LUBLINER: This is Mike Lubliner.**  **9 MR. RAMIREZ: Hold on a second, Mike.**  **10 Let's get Robin, then you.**  **11 MR. ROY: You all know I hate voting**  **12 no on something. I very rarely do it, but on**  **13 this I would have to vote no and I'd rather**  **14 not but I'd have to for a couple reasons.**  **15 One, I am very keen to see what the**  **16 analysis shows for these couple of cities. I**  **17 think it's meaningful and I would like to have**  **18 consideration of that and I'd hate to say no**  **19 or have to vote on it before seeing that.**  **20 The second bit, I understand the**  **21 expedience and trying to move on, but this is**  **22 fairly weighty part.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 The second piece is we are going to**  **2 lock in for basically the rest of time a**  **3 definition of zones by what we do here. It**  **4 would be really interesting to see if there**  **5 is, in fact, a reason to have a different**  **6 climate zone map than this one that follows**  **7 these states lines this particular way. That,**  **8 again, will be informed by the analysis.**  **9 I just cannot help but think back to**  **10 the decision made 47 years ago that put Las**  **11 Vegas and Tidewater, Virginia and Duluth all**  **12 in the same zone. It was unfortunate then.**  **13 We would be locking ourselves into**  **14 something based on not having got back pretty**  **15 interesting, quick information that we can get**  **16 from Joe and his team.**  **17 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay, Lois. I'm sorry.**  **18 Michael, then Lois.**  **19 MR. LUBLINER: I agree with Robin.**  **20 I'd like to get to a consensus here and I need**  **21 to see some more data for these particular**  **22 areas. I'm uncomfortable arbitrarily shifting** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 the bar.**  **2 We have been talking about**  **3 uncertainty and I think everything we've done**  **4 in the calculations and the effort to**  **5 determine affordability is the best data we**  **6 have and so it's the reduced uncertainty that**  **7 we're able to make with the cards we're dealt.**  **8 So now we're adjusting the climate**  **9 zones here based on even more uncertainty and**  **10 so I think it's prudent that we wait until we**  **11 see exactly what the cost effectiveness for**  **12 these areas.**  **13 And I would encourage you when you do**  **14 this to do the multivariant crystal ball**  **15 analysis because I think what you're going to**  **16 find is that there is some other factors that**  **17 are weighing in here that might impact that**  **18 Uo. But clearly I think we need to get those**  **19 numbers and see what's going on.**  **20 As far as Climate Zone 4 goes, my**  **21 experience in the Northwest, and we shared**  **22 this research with the group based on Tom** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 Eckman's published, peer-reviewed research.**  **2 Peer reviewed means it can be cited in a court**  **3 of law.**  **4 And what its experience was, was that**  **5 when you offer a better product, a more**  **6 efficient product with better windows, in this**  **7 case it would require foam sheeting on the**  **8 walls I believe or a tilt-up roof truss,**  **9 you're going to find that you might lose a**  **10 little bit of the entry-level, single-wide**  **11 market, you know, the marginal credit scores,**  **12 but you are going to grow significantly by**  **13 offering a product that they go, hey, I didn't**  **14 know you could get a manufactured home like**  **15 this.**  **16 So I think the federal government**  **17 needs to lead by example and if this is a**  **18 preemptive national code then it should be the**  **19 best in the country and it shouldn't cater to**  **20 the worst that a state energy code is**  **21 promulgating. It should be an example for all**  **22 states.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 And I have concern that the**  **2 preemptive nature of this code needs**  **3 leadership at DOE and looking at affordability**  **4 but other environmental factors besides**  **5 affordability that also take place and that**  **6 would include increased profits to the**  **7 manufacturers by offering a higher efficiency**  **8 product that increases sales at the upper end**  **9 of their market. Thank you.**  **10 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. Lois, did you**  **11 have something?**  **12 MS. STARKEY: Maybe could we, because**  **13 based on what Robin said I'm hearing that**  **14 maybe we're not even in agreement on trying to**  **15 go by states, that it looks like maybe we need**  **16 to, I mean, is that where you're going?**  **17 MR. ROY: I can clarify that. I**  **18 mean, I was curious. I looked at the wind**  **19 map, for example. I'm curious to see what**  **20 your members and, Mark, your members, how you**  **21 deal with that and whether -- I want to**  **22 understand what kind of burden it places.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 I understand the preference for**  **2 having simpler. I get that. It makes perfect**  **3 sense to me, but if there's a substantial**  **4 difference between the Gulf Coast and inland**  **5 in these states maybe it is worth doing. The**  **6 question is balancing that with the burden.**  **7 And I'm curious, how do the**  **8 manufacturers and the retailers deal with the**  **9 wind differences? Those are real. They have**  **10 to do something already that's splitting up**  **11 these states. The wind maps are splitting**  **12 these states into three pieces in some cases.**  **13 I'm not saying I want to do that but**  **14 before we say, no, no, let's not do that,**  **15 let's understand what it is, both in terms of**  **16 what we gain and what the burden is.**  **17 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay, so either way I'm**  **18 hearing that there is substantial concern,**  **19 that we needed some more data before we gauge**  **20 the level of consensus on this one.**  **21 And even so, properly gauging the**  **22 level of consensus, and that's what I'm** 

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### 1 hearing that you're asking for, I think it **2 might be better off waiting till we get the 3 data and then take a more solid vote after we**  **4 have some discussion what the actual data is. 5 Everyone comfortable with that?**  **6 MR. LUTER: This is Rob at Lippert. 7 Exactly what data are we after? Have we been**  **8 able to define what we need to be able to 9 intelligently make a decision?**  **10 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes. 11 MR. ROY: Rob, I'll tell you what I'm**  **12 looking for. This is Robin again. What I 13 would love to see is the cost effectiveness**  **14 analysis for a couple of those states in this 15 area, the cities in this area in question.**  **16 You know, it's not definitive but it's quite 17 informative.**  **18 MR. DENNIS: Yes, and my 19 understanding, just so I can make sure that**  **20 I'm correct, that there's about a $750 swing 21 in the cost of housing to these four states,**  **22 five states and we'd like to see if the**

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 payback over ten years would equal or exceed**  **2 that $750.**  **3 MR. LUTER: Okay. No.**  **4 MR. DENNIS: Right?**  **5 MR. LUTER: Rob again. I think I**  **6 overheard Joe say that he didn't feel that we**  **7 had reliable data. Was that Joe Hagerman that**  **8 made that statement?**  **9 MR. HAGERMAN: So I was just**  **10 commenting on the cost data from Emanuel's**  **11 table. If you look at --**  **12 MR. LUTER: Okay. How do we convert**  **13 that to reliable data?**  **14 MR. HAGERMAN: Well, I think we just**  **15 have to work with Emanuel to understand, to**  **16 make sure that we are comparing apples to**  **17 apples here, so we just need to go through**  **18 these costs. So the cost data, what I was**  **19 talking about.**  **20 But just to clarify something. I**  **21 just sent the assignment to PNNL. They're**  **22 going to run a couple different cities in the** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 states and then they're going to work with**  **2 Matthew to put those energy consumption odds**  **3 of those different U values and the results,**  **4 the annual energy results, into the life cycle**  **5 so you can see it.**  **6 So not only are you going to be**  **7 verifying if the $700 increase is cost**  **8 effective or not, you'll also be verifying**  **9 that since you moved the value, if that's**  **10 still black enough, right? Because we don't**  **11 know if that's even cost effective yet.**  **12 MR. DENNIS: Right, and I would ask,**  **13 and I know some numbers have been thrown**  **14 around, I think maybe Emanuel. And I think**  **15 Manny's point really speaks to me also about,**  **16 you know, the uncertainty around this and**  **17 maybe taking a phased approach.**  **18 But I'd love to see those numbers**  **19 about, you know, the initial $2,000 plus the**  **20 $750, the percentages that we're going up from**  **21 from baseline and so we can have a broader**  **22 context for a story here rather than just a** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 final number and say, well, that final**  **2 number's $50 more. We're saving $50 over 10**  **3 years for those people, you know, so we, like,**  **4 make them spend another $3,000.**  **5 Now, I think it would be good to have**  **6 those numbers in a context on a piece of paper**  **7 so that we can look at them and make --**  **8 Because I know everyone, it'd be nice to have**  **9 that presentation.**  **10 I know maybe I'm too lazy to do it**  **11 and I don't really want to be the person**  **12 saying let's not be more efficient but that is**  **13 a story in itself and where it's saying it I'd**  **14 like to see it on paper if possible.**  **15 MR. LUTER: I don't disagree.**  **16 MR. LUBLINER: This is Mike Lubliner.**  **17 MS. HOFFMAN: Is there a consensus on**  **18 that? Just, Mike, before you go would you**  **19 like to see that data or not?**  **20 (No audible response)**  **21 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay, and can you get**  **22 it?** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. HAGERMAN: I'm giving you the**  **2 annual data and the life cycle data which I**  **3 think is the basis of that story.**  **4 MR. DENNIS: Yes, I mean, I thought**  **5 it'd be nice to have the numbers that have**  **6 been cited today, the $2,000, the $750, the**  **7 percentage increase over the baseline cost**  **8 which I don't know what the average for a**  **9 single wide is. Is it $25,000? That would be**  **10 ten percent or whatnot, you know, things like**  **11 that.**  **12 MR. HAGERMAN: You'll see all that in**  **13 it. It would be nice if we get some, because**  **14 we've been using this average cost of a single**  **15 wide and a double section for the whole**  **16 nation. If we had better average costs in the**  **17 states, that would just help. Does that make**  **18 sense?**  **19 MS. STARKEY: Yes, I think we can**  **20 take the census data and manipulate it so that**  **21 we can determine what the average costs within**  **22 those states are.** 

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### 1 MR. HAGERMAN: Within, right. That **2 would give you the most accurate. 3 MS. STARKEY: Okay.**  **4 MR. UNGAR: One other thing which is 5 easy but it occurred to me to look at how do**  **6 the climates in these four states compare to 7 climates in the other parts of these two**  **8 regions as to whether they naturally belong 9 with one or the other in terms of, again,**  **10 coming up, I mean, PNNL for IECC came up with 11 eight regions where there was a reason why**  **12 they drove those boundaries. 13 But once we change to regions, I**  **14 don't know whether those states kind of 15 clearly belong with others and I think if we**  **16 look at heating and cooling degree days that 17 would probably give some indication as to**  **18 weather. Are these states really similar to 19 Florida in terms of their climate or --**  **20 MR. HAGERMAN: You sort of get that 21 by Robin's data, don't you?**  **22 MR. UNGAR: Maybe but that's somewhat**

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### 1 arbitrary because we, when they drew **2 boundaries for what they were doing but we've 3 now combined them in ways so presumably much**  **4 of those states fit in IECC Zone 3 but if you 5 are combining 3 and 4 does that still make**  **6 sense or not? 7 MR. RAMIREZ: Rob, do you have**  **8 something? 9 MR. LUTER: This is Rob just with**  **10 another comment. One is I get how it's 11 convenient to align these borders with state**  **12 borders. I mean, everybody, I guess pretty 13 much everybody knows what state they're in so**  **14 it's easy to know what zone you'd be in. 15 But just kind of an off-the-wall**  **16 question, if we were just looking at the 17 existing IECC map, would we be having these**  **18 discussions? Would this debate be going on? 19 MR. KESSLER: This is Bert, Palm**  **20 Harbor. I think from an affordability 21 standpoint, we would be discussing the very**  **22 same thing and that's, you know, that's the**

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 significant increase from the existing HUD**  **2 code standards to the IECC 2015 so, yes, I**  **3 think so.**  **4 MR. LUTER: Right, but irrespective**  **5 of the map though, as I see it, we're looking**  **6 at substantially increasing the stringency of**  **7 the codes. You throw a dart at the country**  **8 and wherever you land the performance**  **9 requirements are getting tougher.**  **10 And it doesn't matter if it's with**  **11 the map we see before us right now or the**  **12 existing HUD map or the existing IECC map.**  **13 It's getting tougher everywhere.**  **14 We've been having debates over what**  **15 the number should be in any particular part of**  **16 the country and if we combine parts of the**  **17 country are we too stringent in one area or**  **18 not stringent enough in the other by virtue of**  **19 combining them? I mean, what if we just went**  **20 in with the existing IECC map and call it**  **21 good?**  **22 MR. WADE: Michael Wade, Cavalier.** 

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### 1 Rob, it's not a bad idea but the bad thing **2 about it, I'm afraid it would cause a state a 3 lot of confusion with the retailers who've**  **4 been in this industry for years. 5 When you think about, you know, since**  **6 1994 everyone in this industry has known 7 Climate Zone 1, 2 and 3 as related to the map**  **8 and what was being proposed very closely 9 resembles the same borders which, you know, I**  **10 think is a compromise. 11 MR. LUTER: Well, but they're still**  **12 different, though. My point would be -- 13 MR. WEISS: Why?**  **14 MR. LUTER: They're going to have -- 15 Let's just go through a hypothetical. Let's**  **16 say the normal or the existing IECC results 17 were adopted.**  **18 Anybody that's building modulars 19 right now, as I understand it, already has a**  **20 pretty good handle on where those are. 21 The folks that aren't would have,**  **22 what, 12, probably 12 months from the time**

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 this is announced to be able to understand the**  **2 differences.**  **3 And those individuals near zone**  **4 borders and that or who couldn't grasp the**  **5 intricacies, would they not just adopt a**  **6 practice of combining zones and using worst**  **7 case scenario, not unlike the Texas**  **8 manufacturer does when he ships a haul into**  **9 Oklahoma?**  **10 Today he just uses, if you're looking**  **11 at the map on the left, he builds to Zone 2**  **12 and then he knows he's covered for 1 and 2.**  **13 Isn't that, I mean, in practical terms how it**  **14 would shake out?**  **15 (Simultaneous speaking)**  **16 MR. KESSLER: Rob, I think you're**  **17 forgetting the one big difference between**  **18 modular and manufacturer.**  **19 When we build a modular home, we know**  **20 exactly where that thing is going. In most**  **21 cases we even know the orientation so there**  **22 are no other considerations to be made than** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 the fact that it's going in a specific**  **2 location.**  **3 MR. LUTER: You know, I can**  **4 appreciate that the retailer if he orders**  **5 something for inventory doesn't necessarily or**  **6 perhaps ever know where it ultimately is going**  **7 to be.**  **8 (Simultaneous speaking)**  **9 MR. LUTER: Well, never mind. I**  **10 won't speculate.**  **11 MS. HOFFMAN: One second.**  **12 Facilitator comment.**  **13 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, we're getting a**  **14 request for a break. I don't know how many of**  **15 you have been --**  **16 MS. HOFFMAN: You've been very**  **17 patient, yes.**  **18 MR. RAMIREZ: -- holding your**  **19 bladders, but let's take a ten-minute break**  **20 and then we'll come back and see where we want**  **21 to go with this. All right? So --**  **22 MR. HAGERMAN: You should say on the** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 screen right now is a map that Robin Roy drew**  **2 that combines the IECC climate zones with**  **3 those three natural divisions that we've been**  **4 talking about. So, I mean, Rob Luter, this is**  **5 roughly what you were suggesting to do.**  **6 MR. LUTER: Understood and please, so**  **7 everybody knows, with respect to the zones, I**  **8 don't have a particular dog in the fight. I**  **9 mean, however it shakes out I'm good with.**  **10 I'm just trying to facilitate this argument**  **11 moving on down the highway so we can move on**  **12 to some other issues.**  **13 MR. WADE: Let me make one comment if**  **14 I can. This is Michael Wade. I think we need**  **15 to stop for a minute and think are we here and**  **16 working on this because the HUD code exists or**  **17 does the HUD code exist because we're here,**  **18 you know? I think we're trying to serve the**  **19 HUD code and I don't think we need to lose**  **20 vision of that. So, thank you.**  **21 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay, now we're really**  **22 going to have this break. Ten minutes and** 

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### 1 we'll come back. **2 (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter 3 went off the record at 2:33 p.m. and resumed**  **4 at 2:56 p.m.) 5 MR. HAGERMAN: So what we did over**  **6 the break was this -- I don't know if 7 everybody can hear me. There's some feedback**  **8 or something on the phones. 9 So what we did over the break was**  **10 this and, you know, PNNL is going to do their 11 full analysis so let me just preface what I'm**  **12 about to say that the lab is going to do the 13 full analysis for us and they are going to**  **14 pick a city in the four states, one city in 15 South Carolina, one in Georgia, one Alabama,**  **16 one Mississippi. 17 But what we did was, you know, we've**  **18 run a lot of simulations, right. We ran the 19 2006 Code, the 2009 Code, the HUD baseline,**  **20 multiple HUD baselines, we've run a lot of 21 numbers already, right.**  **22 And we always ran Houston and we**

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 always ran Memphis and so what we said was,**  **2 you know, the climate in Memphis, degree**  **3 heating days is roughly the same climate in**  **4 Atlanta, right, which is more in the heart of**  **5 that section right there, right. It's pretty**  **6 similar.**  **7 So let's look for a case where we run**  **8 Memphis, our proxy for Atlanta at a U Value of**  **9 0.087, and we did. We ran one in 2006, IECC,**  **10 we ran a 0.088, and if you'd run that and look**  **11 at the costs you never get a positive savings.**  **12 You get over a 10-year, a 10-year**  **13 life span of that house you get a negative**  **14 $1100 and $80, $22 or something. So, you**  **15 know, again, this is what I said earlier, I**  **16 think there's unintended consequences when we**  **17 change these values, right.**  **18 So, you know, we're going to do the**  **19 full analysis. It's going to take PNNL a**  **20 little bit more time to run those numbers, or**  **21 run those cities because they don't have**  **22 complete weather files, so they have to go** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 create the weather files for those cities.**  **2 But that's not a problem, we have all**  **3 the publicly available weather data. It's**  **4 just going to take them a couple more days and**  **5 they usually turn things around and then**  **6 you'll see all those results.**  **7 And then we can, you know, Matthew**  **8 can make a, maybe a smaller section of a life**  **9 cycle table, you know, that we can just focus**  **10 on those four cities and then we can close out**  **11 this discussion.**  **12 So that's what we're going to do, but**  **13 that's just kind of the background, a little**  **14 calculation that doesn't show that going to a**  **15 0.088 is cost effective.**  **16 MR. RAMIREZ: All right, so then**  **17 we're going to table this discussion until we**  **18 get additional information, we'll pick it up**  **19 in Denver, correct?**  **20 MR. DENNIS: A technical question,**  **21 does that mean a 0.07 would be even less cost**  **22 effective?** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. HAGERMAN: No, that means 0.07 is**  **2 cost effective.**  **3 MR. DENNIS: And 0.08's not?**  **4 MR. HAGERMAN: That's right.**  **5 MR. RAMIREZ: Now when you say --**  **6 MR. LUTER: Who were you just**  **7 telling?**  **8 MS. HOFFMAN: I think that you could**  **9 just tell him.**  **10 MR. HAGERMAN: Yes, so think about**  **11 what goes into those numbers, right. There**  **12 is, you know, there's insulation, there's the**  **13 heat loss through the building, there's the**  **14 heat gain through the building, there's the**  **15 loads, or the weather, you know, it's not a**  **16 simple little linear equation, right, so**  **17 that's why we do all these simulations.**  **18 MR. DENNIS: So you're saying because**  **19 it's warmer the insulation is paying back more**  **20 --**  **21 MR. HAGERMAN: Right.**  **22 MR. DENNIS: -- and as you take** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 insulation out you're actually reducing --**  **2 MR. HAGERMAN: Saying the combined,**  **3 the packages that we've selected there, all**  **4 those components make that unit perform better**  **5 in that climate zone.**  **6 MR. DENNIS: Okay.**  **7 MR. WEISS: So it's like the bell**  **8 curve, a manual --**  **9 (Simultaneous speaking)**  **10 MR. HAGERMAN: But anyway you'll see**  **11 the runs.**  **12 MR. WEISS: Okay.**  **13 MR. HAGERMAN: Okay.**  **14 MR. RAMIREZ: All right, then, Ted,**  **15 can we pull up the Agenda?**  **16 MR. LUBLINER: This is Mike Lubliner.**  **17 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, Michael?**  **18 MR. LUBLINER: Joe, is it possible**  **19 when you do the runs that you can also look at**  **20 the actual total cost in savings between the**  **21 two and also those kind of peak load**  **22 externalities, the impact on the electrical** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 grid from adopting one and the map versus the**  **2 other?**  **3 I don't know if you can do that, but**  **4 I think that would be interesting for me if**  **5 it's possible. Thank you.**  **6 MR. HAGERMAN: So we probably won't**  **7 be able to do that in this short turnaround.**  **8 We have to do that obviously for the other**  **9 analysis that has to go OV, so that will all**  **10 be in our final rule package.**  **11 MR. LUBLINER: Thanks, Joe.**  **12 MR. HAGERMAN: You'll see that.**  **13 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. So since we're**  **14 done for now and I had it on there before,**  **15 tabled for industry discussion, but either way**  **16 the climate zone discussion is tabled.**  **17 Are there any additional items that**  **18 need to be covered under subcommittee reports?**  **19 Anything under financial, manufacturing,**  **20 affordability, and --**  **21 MS. DICKENS: Sorry, this is Ishbel**  **22 from NMHOA. Stacey is not available and I** 

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### 1 believe Amy also had to drop off the **2 connection, so this could be a very, very 3 quick update from the financial subcommittee,**  **4 won't take more than two minutes. 5 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. Okay, go ahead.**  **6 MS. DICKENS: So do you want me to do 7 that right now?**  **8 MR. HAGERMAN: Yes. 9 MS. DICKENS: Okay. Someone just**  **10 asked about anything we knew about why 11 homeowners might foreclose on their homes, so**  **12 there's only anecdotal evidence form MHI and 13 from NMHOA.**  **14 And some of the reasons were the same 15 reasons that you would get from any homeowner**  **16 who ends up in a foreclosure situation, job 17 loss, divorce, those were the main reasons**  **18 from MHI and along with updates saying that, 19 but there were usually no defaults in the**  **20 first two years of the homeowner purchasing 21 the home.**  **22 Additional anecdotal evidence from**

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 NMHOA is that, but particularly, and this is**  **2 especially and really only for homeowners who**  **3 are living in land lease communities, as the**  **4 base rent goes up homeowners who are at the**  **5 margins may have a difficult time paying both**  **6 their loan amount and their space rent and**  **7 they opt to just continue to pay the increased**  **8 space rent because eviction based on non**  **9 payment of rent is a fairly quick turnaround**  **10 whereas a foreclosure on not paying their**  **11 mortgage may take longer, so that may be one**  **12 reason.**  **13 And then additionally when people are**  **14 served notice that their community is going to**  **15 close or change its use they may not see the**  **16 point in continuing to pay off a loan on their**  **17 home when in all likelihood they will lose**  **18 that home when the community closes because**  **19 they won't be able to move it anywhere else.**  **20 So those are just anecdotal reasons**  **21 that we know of for why some homeowners anyway**  **22 may end up defaulting on their loans. In** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 addition, Javier, I said to you the day before**  **2 yesterday the Consumer Finance Protection**  **3 Bureau Reports on manufactured housing loans**  **4 and they verify what the number is.**  **5 A manual was used in terms of the**  **6 $43,000 for a standard single section home,**  **7 $78,000 for the cost of a multi-section home,**  **8 also stating what we already know that average**  **9 homebuyers of manufactured homes tend to be**  **10 older and have less net worth than other**  **11 homeowners and they would like to live in**  **12 rural areas.**  **13 And they were just basically also**  **14 saying what we already know that the majority**  **15 of homeowners are using chattel loans,**  **16 personal property loans to purchase their**  **17 homes, which have, as we all know, much higher**  **18 interest rates, a shorter amortization period,**  **19 some potentially higher costs involved, and I**  **20 believe they were using a 9 percent chattel**  **21 loan average.**  **22 So that's all I have from the finance** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 committee.**  **2 (Simultaneous speaking)**  **3 MS. STARKEY: I'm a member of the --**  **4 I think the other anecdotal piece of**  **5 information was healthcare costs.**  **6 MS. DICKENS: Oh, yes, right.**  **7 MS. STARKEY: The additional reason,**  **8 yes, healthcare.**  **9 MR. LUBLINER: This is Mike Lubliner.**  **10 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay, Michael?**  **11 MR. LUBLINER: Yes, I was just**  **12 wondering if the, I had mentioned something**  **13 and I know it got addressed a little bit**  **14 yesterday, but did the financial committee,**  **15 were they able to get any estimates of what**  **16 percentage of new manufactured home purchases**  **17 are cash, because we see that as half the**  **18 market in our small little area of the country**  **19 and I'm just wondering if that has any impact**  **20 on these discussions.**  **21 If it doesn't then I will not raise**  **22 it, but I was wondering if you actually got** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 that data. I know Stacey said she was going**  **2 to try to look into that. Thank you.**  **3 MR. RAMIREZ: Lois?**  **4 MS. DICKENS: I don't have that --**  **5 (Simultaneous speaking)**  **6 MS. STARKEY: Yes, it's 30 percent,**  **7 and I think that's, I have to confirm where it**  **8 came from, but I think it's HMDA, but that's,**  **9 and our lenders that we polled, but, you know,**  **10 30 percent would be a good -- Nationwide, yes.**  **11 MR. LUBLINER: Thank you very much,**  **12 Lois, I appreciate that.**  **13 MS. HOFFMAN: Ishbel, did you have**  **14 something you were adding?**  **15 MS. DICKENS: Oh, no, I was just**  **16 saying that I did not have that information on**  **17 the percent of cash buys. I'm amazed it's**  **18 that high, but thanks, Lois, for that**  **19 information.**  **20 MS. STARKEY: It's primarily because**  **21 of the difficulty in getting financing. We'd**  **22 love to see that number go down so we could** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 make more loans and sell more homes, but --**  **2 MS. DICKENS: Right, finance, yes,**  **3 thank you.**  **4 MR. RAMIREZ: All right, great.**  **5 Thank you, Ishbel. David, anything additional**  **6 on manufacturing?**  **7 MR. TOMPOS: No, I do not.**  **8 MR. RAMIREZ: Robin, anything out of**  **9 affordability?**  **10 MR. ROY: It doesn't seem to be such**  **11 an issue here.**  **12 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. As far as the --**  **13 MR. ROY: No, I don't, sorry.**  **14 MR. RAMIREZ: Even on the avenues**  **15 that you're exploring?**  **16 MR. ROY: No. We were waiting to see**  **17 if it's necessary. I don't think there's that**  **18 much of a gap, so hopefully the approach that**  **19 we were discussing, but let's wait.**  **20 MR. RAMIREZ: Manny, anything**  **21 additional on the 2015 IECC?**  **22 MR. SANTANA: Manny with Cavco. Our** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 committee, I think we concluded all of our**  **2 work on the mandatory sections and we were**  **3 intending to continue with the prescriptive**  **4 part, but we've almost, I do believe we've**  **5 addressed the vast majority of those, so, you**  **6 know, unless the members feel otherwise I**  **7 think we're, we'll get it to the stand.**  **8 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. And then, David**  **9 --**  **10 MR. LACEY: Just one point. This is**  **11 Eric from RECA. You know, I went through,**  **12 back through the Code and looked at the**  **13 sections that, and the footnotes to the tables**  **14 that we might want to include and I think**  **15 there were fewer than ten or so issues.**  **16 And so I think the vast majority of**  **17 it has been taken care of either through the**  **18 duct and air leakage issues we've talked about**  **19 at great length and the mandatory sections**  **20 which we talked about.**  **21 But there are a few other little odds**  **22 and ends and notations that I think would be** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 helpful to include with the recommendation**  **2 and, I mean I'd be happy to draft something up**  **3 for you, Manny, and run it by you guys if you**  **4 want.**  **5 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. So and then**  **6 you'll get that to the industries, the group**  **7 before the next meeting?**  **8 MR. LACEY: Yes. Is that okay,**  **9 Manny?**  **10 MR. SANTANA: Yes, you know I'm here**  **11 to please. So some of them were still intact.**  **12 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. All right. Well**  **13 it sounds like we have a new chair now, a new**  **14 chair on that committee.**  **15 MS. HOFFMAN: Eric --**  **16 MR. LACEY: No, no, no, I still need**  **17 this committee.**  **18 MR. RAMIREZ: No, okay.**  **19 MR. LACEY: I understand we're**  **20 cousins, so --**  **21 MS. HOFFMAN: But just so, Eric,**  **22 you're going to run it by Manny and then get** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 it to us and we'll make sure it goes out to**  **2 the whole --**  **3 MR. LACEY: Yes, yes. You'll maybe**  **4 decide you don't need it, but I thought some**  **5 of the footnotes and notes would be helpful.**  **6 MS. HOFFMAN: Yes, but -- Sure. We**  **7 need as much as possible for the next meeting.**  **8 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay, great. And then,**  **9 David Tompos, you're done with your air**  **10 quality report, right?**  **11 MR. TOMPOS: Just about.**  **12 MR. RAMIREZ: All right. All right,**  **13 so as far as subcommittee reports we'll leave**  **14 that on the agenda for the next meeting as**  **15 well just to see if anything has come up and**  **16 we can do a quick run through just like we did**  **17 and see if there's anything that is added on**  **18 to that.**  **19 MS. HOFFMAN: Were there other**  **20 committees? Emanuel, did you have one or is**  **21 this it, are we all set?**  **22 MR. RAMIREZ: No, that's it. No,** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 Emanuel's been doing this all along, right.**  **2 MS. HOFFMAN: Oh, okay.**  **3 MR. RAMIREZ: It's been very helpful,**  **4 thank you, Emanuel.**  **5 MR. LEVY: I have a committee warning**  **6 with a little disagreement.**  **7 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes. Let's hope not,**  **8 right. Some arguments, but not disagreements,**  **9 right. All right, then as far as the next**  **10 agenda item we have the items that you wanted**  **11 to make as far as recommendations to ASRAC and**  **12 you had the -- No, the manual J&S that's been**  **13 resolved.**  **14 But for the Manual D methodology and**  **15 duct size that's a recommendation that you're**  **16 going to make to ASRAC that they consider**  **17 that, right, as well as a REScheck tool.**  **18 It's a recommendation for a**  **19 compliance committee and is that something**  **20 that we're going to be making to ASRAC?**  **21 MR. ROY: We're hoping to get that**  **22 resolved before Christmas, right?** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. RAMIREZ: Right. It would be, I**  **2 hope he's talking about the recommendation,**  **3 but either way, so that's something that we're**  **4 going to have to finalize and that'll be on**  **5 the agenda for the next one as well as a label**  **6 for sizing, and I believe that was another**  **7 item that was discussed.**  **8 MS. HOFFMAN: And there might be**  **9 education or there may be other**  **10 recommendations you think of for at the next**  **11 meeting.**  **12 MR. RAMIREZ: Can you think of any**  **13 other items as far as recommendations go that**  **14 we need to make to ASRAC? The door is not --**  **15 Oh, I'm sorry.**  **16 MR. TOMPOS: Okay. Well I just**  **17 wanted to go back to the Manual D again. What**  **18 exactly are we having them consider? Is it**  **19 the fact that we may or may not do it?**  **20 MR. HAGERMAN: I think it's that DOE**  **21 should consider a Manual D on those**  **22 alternative methods for doing the load** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 calculations. Whatever that provision says --**  **2 MR. RAMIREZ: For other approved**  **3 heating and cooling calculation methodologies.**  **4 MR. TOMPOS: Okay.**  **5 MR. RAMIREZ: So you'll consider it**  **6 as Manual D.**  **7 MR. UNGAR: It's not alternative to**  **8 making assets --**  **9 MS. HOFFMAN: No, it's not an**  **10 alternative, it's an addition.**  **11 MR. UNGAR: -- it's as a**  **12 complimentary.**  **13 MS. HOFFMAN: It's in addition and**  **14 it's to explore it, to look at Manual D. I**  **15 don't think it's --**  **16 MR. HAGERMAN: It's not to put Manual**  **17 D into the -- to require it, but to consider**  **18 it as, I think as an, not as an alternative,**  **19 but as an additional --**  **20 MR. TOMPOS: As an option?**  **21 MR. HAGERMAN: As an option, there**  **22 you go.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. TOMPOS: Okay.**  **2 MR. HAGERMAN: That's my**  **3 understanding. And to include it in the**  **4 REScheck, too.**  **5 MR. LUBLINER: This is Mike Lubliner.**  **6 MR. TOMPOS: Oh, you're saying it**  **7 could be included in the REScheck?**  **8 MR. HAGERMAN: Yes.**  **9 (Simultaneous speaking)**  **10 MR. TOMPOS: I just, I think there is**  **11 additional --**  **12 MR. HAGERMAN: Sorry that I'm**  **13 fumbling through that, but my memory is kind**  **14 of --**  **15 MR. RAMIREZ: Mush?**  **16 MR. HAGERMAN: -- mush right now.**  **17 MR. TOMPOS: I just want to make sure**  **18 that if we do, if it's not a requirement fine.**  **19 I think there's a lot of other things that**  **20 need to be considered if we do Manual D**  **21 because I think then you're going to be**  **22 getting into some graduated ducts and a number** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 of different things that the manufacturers are**  **2 currently not set up to produce.**  **3 Usually the manufacturer are**  **4 producing one size trunk in the plants and I**  **5 think some of their equipment may not be set**  **6 up to make those changes, so we haven't even**  **7 touched or scratched the surface on what the**  **8 ramifications of adding Manual D to this**  **9 requirement.**  **10 So I'm just throwing that out there**  **11 when that does get considered.**  **12 MR. LUBLINER: This is Mike Lubliner.**  **13 MR. RAMIREZ: Go ahead, Michael.**  **14 MR. LUBLINER: Yes, so I think you're**  **15 right we could learn to, what is the current**  **16 practice? Could you possibly, David, share**  **17 with us the existing duct calculations used to**  **18 determine that you're getting the 400 cfm per**  **19 ton that an AC or a heat pump requires to**  **20 perform at its HSPF or SEER level as we've**  **21 modeled?**  **22 Can you give us an example so we can** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 look at it and compare it to Manual D and see**  **2 if these are engineering issues or other**  **3 issues?**  **4 I totally agree with you, David, that**  **5 the product that's being used now it has been**  **6 around for a long, long time and maybe now is**  **7 the time to take a look to make sure that**  **8 we're sizing adequately, particularly for the**  **9 large tonnage units.**  **10 I do think one of the benefits though**  **11 of improving the energy code here is that the**  **12 existing duct system will require a smaller**  **13 piece of equipment and therefore it's more,**  **14 it's closer to the 400 cfm per duct, so by**  **15 increasing the efficiency of the home we're**  **16 making the ducts "a light size."**  **17 We're getting them so they have more**  **18 flexibility to deliver more air to the larger**  **19 homes or whatever the situation is. So if you**  **20 could share with us any sort of duct design**  **21 approaches you use for these prototypes maybe**  **22 that would be a good way to start. Thank you.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. TOMPOS: Well I don't know if I**  **2 can share any duct design. Typically the**  **3 industry has it done by the HVAC supplier, so**  **4 we don't get into how the calculations are**  **5 done, they just come back from the suppliers**  **6 and that's what's being used.**  **7 I mean maybe one of the manufacturers**  **8 that works with those suppliers could comment**  **9 on that.**  **10 MR. LUBLINER: I guess I didn't have**  **11 a problem with that because my understand is**  **12 you sell a home that's called AC ready or heat**  **13 pump ready and my understanding is that home**  **14 was designed so that it could handle the flow**  **15 rates.**  **16 The ducts were designed so they could**  **17 handle the flow rates of an AC system, which**  **18 I believe engineering would say anything**  **19 longer than 300 cfm per ton is out of spec.**  **20 So I'm just wondering am I off? Does**  **21 the heat pump ready or AC ready not look at**  **22 the duct design adequacy?** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. TOMPOS: I don't know, Michael.**  **2 MR. RAMIREZ: All right, so in the**  **3 way --**  **4 MR. LUBLINER: I guess it's just like**  **5 a defining condition space.**  **6 MR. RAMIREZ: Well, you know, we'll**  **7 nail down the exact recommendations that we're**  **8 going to have to make to ASRAC, and that's**  **9 going to be one of them that's going to be on**  **10 the agenda for Denver.**  **11 MS. HOFFMAN: Right.**  **12 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. The logistics**  **13 for Denver. I believe we are looking at the**  **14 Denver Marriott West?**  **15 MR. HAGERMAN: Yes. So we're still**  **16 working on that. So we're trying to make a**  **17 block of rooms for the Denver Marriott West.**  **18 It's, you know, government rate or, you know,**  **19 conference rate, so it's more affordable.**  **20 We're going to circulate, so some**  **21 staff at Ed's shop are going to circulate**  **22 information about where the lab is and** 

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### 1 logistics on how to get to the lab and how to **2 get to the hotel. 3 It would be helpful for us to know,**  **4 sort of just take a straw poll real quick of 5 who all is going to be coming to Denver just**  **6 so when we reserve the block of rooms that, 7 you know, that we can hit the number they ask**  **8 us to hit. 9 So maybe if we could quickly, I don't**  **10 know take a thumb vote on who's going to 11 Denver.**  **12 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes. Well let's start 13 off with the folks in the room here. Who in**  **14 the room is planning on going to Denver? 15 MR. HAGERMAN: Not everybody at once,**  **16 all right. 17 MR. RAMIREZ: Just raise your hands**  **18 and we'll get -- 19 MR. HAGERMAN: Okay, so that's three**  **20 people, four people maybe. 21 MR. RAMIREZ: Lois, no?**  **22 MS. STARKEY: No.**

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### 1 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay, so Lois, no, **2 Keith, no, and David, no, Mark, no, everyone 3 else either a yes or a maybe. Kavita, yes?**  **4 (No audible response) 5 MR. HAGERMAN: What about who on the**  **6 phone? 7 MS. DICKENS: I'll be going, Ishbel.**  **8 MR. SANTANA: Manny, I'm going. 9 MR. LUTER: Rob Luter, I'll be going.**  **10 MR. EZZO: Mark Ezzo, I'm going. 11 MR. WEISS: Michael Weiss going.**  **12 MR. LEVY: Emanuel Levy, I'm going. 13 MR. LUBLINER: And Luby's going if**  **14 the doctor says it's okay for his knee. 15 MR. HAGERMAN: Who do we have to**  **16 call? 17 (Laughter)**  **18 MR. HAGERMAN: So that's seven people 19 on the phone and then about seven people in**  **20 the room counting the feds and the 21 consultants, okay.**  **22 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. And then as far**

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 as time are we, if I remember correctly we**  **2 were looking at, was it a half or a full day**  **3 the first day --**  **4 MR. HAGERMAN: It was an early start**  **5 on the first day, on a Thursday, 8:00 a.m.**  **6 You can walk from the hotel to the National**  **7 Lab and there's a little, you know, security**  **8 booth you have to go through and, of course,**  **9 we'll have people directing you where to go.**  **10 MR. RAMIREZ: And then an early start**  **11 on Friday as well with an early release, like**  **12 a noon release.**  **13 MR. HAGERMAN: Yes. If we do a noon**  **14 release then people that are on the East Coast**  **15 can fly back.**  **16 MR. RAMIREZ: All right. And then**  **17 you had also talked about the possibility of**  **18 having a Q&A session or maybe even a tour, did**  **19 you want to have that arranged for either**  **20 Friday afternoon or on Wednesday later in the**  **21 afternoon?**  **22 MR. HAGERMAN: Sure. We can, yes, so** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 the lab folks are happy to give you tours of**  **2 their facility. They're some nice net zero**  **3 buildings and what not and you can see their**  **4 testing labs, it's just sort of cool to see I**  **5 guess.**  **6 More importantly, you know, our**  **7 budget is largely a research and development**  **8 budget. You know, of the $200 million that we**  **9 get appropriated from Congress about $130**  **10 million goes to R&D.**  **11 We have a team out there that focuses**  **12 solely on residence rule R&D called the**  **13 Building America Program, and so I wanted them**  **14 to come in and present for maybe 30 minutes if**  **15 they could about what research they're doing**  **16 that pertains to manufactured housing.**  **17 And then more importantly for you to**  **18 discuss with them what some industry needs**  **19 would be in both meeting this legislation, or**  **20 meeting this term sheet or other things that**  **21 you're struggling with, right, or big unknowns**  **22 that, you know, that you have that are not** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 solved.**  **2 Because that feedback really helps us**  **3 design our programs. So I put that offer on**  **4 the table, too, and they're happy to present**  **5 to you, or they're happy if we're running out**  **6 of time, or if we're happy to skip that as**  **7 well.**  **8 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes. So the question**  **9 for you all is there interest in that?**  **10 MR. LEVY: Yes.**  **11 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. It sounds like**  **12 there is and then if so when is the ideal time**  **13 to try to block out? Is it Wednesday evening,**  **14 is it Thursday evening, or Friday afternoon?**  **15 MR. LEVY: I would say Friday**  **16 afternoon for me.**  **17 MR. SANTANA: Friday afternoon for me**  **18 as well, Manny.**  **19 MR. RAMIREZ: So we'll do business**  **20 until noon and then break for lunch and then**  **21 after lunch meet with them.**  **22 MR. HAGERMAN: The people that want** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 to stay and meet with them, they can meet with**  **2 them and they can go through the facility with**  **3 them, too, so that's fine.**  **4 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. Let's see --**  **5 MS. DICKENS: I just have one**  **6 logistical question, sorry, this is Ishbel.**  **7 So I know, I've been to Denver, I've been to**  **8 Colorado several times, but is that hotel near**  **9 the airport or is there public transportation**  **10 or, because somehow I thought we were going to**  **11 Golden, which somebody said was like half an**  **12 hour from Denver, so has that changed or am I**  **13 wrong?**  **14 MR. HAGERMAN: No, that's correct.**  **15 I'm sorry to confuse you. So the Denver**  **16 Marriott West is actually in Golden, Colorado,**  **17 and I guess you could take public transport**  **18 there. You'd probably need to leave a couple**  **19 days ahead of time.**  **20 (Laughter)**  **21 MR. ROY: Google says two hours and**  **22 20 minutes for public transport.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. HAGERMAN: That's like 2 hours and**  **2 20 minutes. Right. And so if you just rent**  **3 a car it's about a 30 to 40 minute drive from**  **4 the airport.**  **5 MR. RAMIREZ: Emanuel was kind of**  **6 enough to send the address. I'm just going to**  **7 send the address out for planning purposes,**  **8 but we're going to have all the details later.**  **9 (Simultaneous speaking)**  **10 MR. HAGERMAN: And I'm sorry we have**  **11 a sort of care package about the lab and how**  **12 to get there and everything it's just stuck in**  **13 our email, we can't get it out to you, so**  **14 we'll get that out as soon as we can.**  **15 MS. HOFFMAN: Also, if we know when**  **16 people are arriving at the airport you could**  **17 maybe carpool, because I think everything is**  **18 going to be within, if we know, you know --**  **19 MR. HAGERMAN: Right. There is not**  **20 a shuttle.**  **21 MS. DICKENS: Right.**  **22 MR. HAGERMAN: The Marriot does not** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 have a shuttle to the airport or anything like**  **2 that. They sometimes give us a shuttle to all**  **3 the restaurants at night, which it's not far**  **4 to walk to the restaurants.**  **5 MS. DICKENS: So I guess this would**  **6 be, it would be a good time to exercise our**  **7 thumbs it sounds like.**  **8 MR. HAGERMAN: That's right. So**  **9 that's all we have, but, you know, we'll try**  **10 to get a care package sent off to you as**  **11 quickly as possible and tell you who to call**  **12 for rooms and everything like that.**  **13 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay.**  **14 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. And then**  **15 anything else as far as logistics for Denver?**  **16 Any public comment?**  **17 MR. MENDLEN: Yes. I just have a few**  **18 comments. Just reminding everybody that there**  **19 were comments that I made about the**  **20 consultation between HUD and DOE and just as**  **21 a reminder, and we've only had preliminary**  **22 discussions, we certainly fully intend to** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 consult at our end with DOE and we assume that**  **2 DOE intends to the same at their end.**  **3 And that will certainly take place I**  **4 think as soon as the term sheet has been**  **5 prepared, but that's at least preliminary**  **6 planning for now.**  **7 To kind of, what's that term you used**  **8 again, Mark?**  **9 MR. WEISS: Glom on.**  **10 MR. MENDLEN: Glom on. I just wanted**  **11 to let you guys know, I mean there was sort of**  **12 suggestions by Mike Lubliner that, maybe to**  **13 the contrary, but HUD has a very robust**  **14 enforcement program.**  **15 They've been working for several**  **16 years to improve the quality in all of our**  **17 factories with tremendous emphasis there and**  **18 we have finally restored compliance auditing**  **19 again that we're doing to evaluate how**  **20 effective that quality emphasis has been.**  **21 So there are no worries I think with**  **22 respect to our enforcement system. It is a** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 very strong, uniformity is the key to getting**  **2 this thing through I think. The simpler you**  **3 can make it the more uniform you can make, the**  **4 more effective our enforcement system can**  **5 police it basically.**  **6 I would suggest that if PNNL is going**  **7 to do anymore analysis that they also look at**  **8 some different geometries to make sure that**  **9 the prescriptive provisions will work in other**  **10 geometries, smaller units, larger units,**  **11 whatever, just to be sure that the**  **12 prescriptive requirements are getting you**  **13 where you want to be.**  **14 I told somebody, you know, in terms**  **15 of rulemaking this isn't my first rodeo. I've**  **16 been involved with many, many rulemakings and**  **17 I want to encourage you that wherever possible**  **18 to make compromise between the respective**  **19 interests that are here, and there are many**  **20 respective interests.**  **21 There's manufacturers, there's the**  **22 federal agencies, there's the energy interest,** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 the consumer protection interest, it's all**  **2 over the place and you've come so far.**  **3 I mean I've really been impressed**  **4 with how far you've been able to come in a**  **5 short period of time. And if you get logged**  **6 down in the weeds, so to speak, and don't do**  **7 a term sheet or don't get the term sheet done**  **8 in Denver, or Golden, it would be a real**  **9 crime.**  **10 So I really hope that you can work**  **11 effectively at the very end here to make the**  **12 kinds of decisions that will move the product**  **13 forward. And that's about what I have to say,**  **14 thank you.**  **15 MR. RAMIREZ: Thank you, Rick.**  **16 MR. LUBLINER: Javier, this is Mike**  **17 Lubliner.**  **18 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes?**  **19 MR. LUBLINER: Can I make a brief**  **20 response to Rick, because I want to be clear**  **21 to him and Dave that, you know, I was**  **22 appointed by the Bush Administration and by** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 the Obama Administration to be on the**  **2 Manufactured Housing Consensus Committee to**  **3 vouch for the consumers interests.**  **4 And I think that there has been**  **5 significant progress made since I first**  **6 started on that and I look forward to**  **7 additional progress.**  **8 My specific concerns have to do with**  **9 the funding, or the lack thereof, that HUD**  **10 receives so that they can enforce their**  **11 overall program, and I have been an advocate**  **12 on the committee and outside the committee for**  **13 fully funding HUD so that IBTS can be out in**  **14 the field ensuring that the things that I**  **15 raise technically are being done.**  **16 And in no way am I trying to take any**  **17 personal sprite with anybody, I'm just**  **18 observing the process and I would encourage**  **19 all of you to read the GAO Report, which gets**  **20 into a history of some the issues associated**  **21 with this lack of funding and how it's caused**  **22 HUD in their Office of Manufactured Housing** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 the inability to even pay its bills.**  **2 So I'm with you. I'm trying to get**  **3 you funding to do your job, Rick, and I want**  **4 to be clear that everybody on this committee**  **5 understands that based on my value systems I'm**  **6 representing the consumer. Thank you very**  **7 much.**  **8 MR. MENDLEN: Can I respond, Javier?**  **9 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes.**  **10 MR. MENDLEN: Mike, we just recently**  **11 passed an increase in the label fee that we**  **12 are collecting for every transportable section**  **13 from $39 to $100 per transportable section.**  **14 We are able to fund this program now**  **15 fully, so comments of the kind that you just**  **16 made are certainly inappropriate.**  **17 (Simultaneous speaking)**  **18 MR. LUBLINER: Well I'd like to see**  **19 when that happen -- Like I said I'm aware of**  **20 that and I've been supportive of that.**  **21 So I don't want to get argumentative**  **22 with you, Rick, here --** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. MENDLEN: Well you are being**  **2 argumentative, I'm sorry.**  **3 (Simultaneous speaking)**  **4 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay, this is when the**  **5 facilitators thank you. We call time, thank**  **6 you. Thank you for your candid expressions.**  **7 Okay, moving right along. Thank you, both, go**  **8 on.**  **9 MR. RAMIREZ: Quite the diplomat.**  **10 All right, so we are going to, as far as**  **11 homework goes, Joe is going to be doing some**  **12 runs, David, you have some work and you, and**  **13 I see David as the lead, right, but there's a**  **14 --**  **15 MS. HOFFMAN: We know he has more.**  **16 MR. RAMIREZ: You have a nice support**  **17 group there.**  **18 MS. HOFFMAN: Right. Can you help me**  **19 with one thing? The term sheet --**  **20 MR. HAGERMAN: Hold on. I think Eric**  **21 also has some work, too.**  **22 MS. HOFFMAN: Oh, sorry. Because I** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 was just going to ask how like the mechanics**  **2 of doing that --**  **3 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes. Well he has the**  **4 2015 IECC footnotes they're going to be doing.**  **5 MS. HOFFMAN: Yes.**  **6 MR. HAGERMAN: That's right, yes. Is**  **7 there anything else?**  **8 MR. RAMIREZ: Oh, do you want to do**  **9 some homework?**  **10 MR. DENNIS: No. I have a question**  **11 about homework though.**  **12 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay.**  **13 MR. DENNIS: Do we have like two**  **14 maps, are we looking at like, I'd like to run**  **15 the maps by some members, like is it just the**  **16 two that we're looking at?**  **17 I mean do we have options at this**  **18 point or are we all just not anywhere yet?**  **19 MR. HAGERMAN: So I mean, so I think**  **20 there's like sort of two or three different**  **21 boundary conditions.**  **22 MS. HOFFMAN: You can read this map.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. HAGERMAN: There's this map,**  **2 right, there's the Rob and Roy map, which is**  **3 the IECC climate zones grouped together,**  **4 right, because that's how the new values**  **5 naturally, you know, aggregate.**  **6 MR. DENNIS: Right.**  **7 MR. HAGERMAN: And then, I throw it**  **8 out there, there's kind of a hybrid that one**  **9 could draw that is the first map, but in the**  **10 climate zone area of controversy you just turn**  **11 that into replicating the Rob and Roy map,**  **12 right.**  **13 MR. DENNIS: Okay. So we keep one**  **14 and two down here --**  **15 MR. HAGERMAN: So it's like a hybrid**  **16 of one and two.**  **17 MR. UNGAR: All right. So the**  **18 boundary between one and two would effectively**  **19 follow the dotted line, which is the same as**  **20 Rob and Roy's.**  **21 MR. HAGERMAN: That's right.**  **22 MR. DENNIS: Okay. And then --** 

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### 1 MR. HAGERMAN: I really see that as **2 the three, I mean the three kind of logical 3 options.**  **4 MR. UNGAR: Right. 5 MR. DENNIS: And then, yes, somebody**  **6 just sent out a paper, it was Javier, and it 7 mentioned that, you know, South Carolina has**  **8 the highest prevalence in manufactured 9 housing, so can we just make sure that we get**  **10 one of us to use in that run in both the two 11 and one, because South Carolina's --**  **12 MR. HAGERMAN: We can capture that, 13 yes.**  **14 MR. DENNIS: Yes. Okay, thanks. 15 MR. HAGERMAN: You also have the**  **16 shipment data so you should verify that with 17 the shipment data. South Carolina has 2000**  **18 homes shipped in HUD Thermal Zone 1. Texas 19 has 12,000, so --**  **20 MR. DENNIS: It just must be per 21 square mile or --**  **22 (Simultaneous speaking)**

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. UNGAR: Are the proportion zones**  **2 on it?**  **3 MR. HAGERMAN: Yes, an estimate. You**  **4 just, I think the HUD shipment data gives you**  **5 some good information just to get the numbers.**  **6 MR. UNGAR: Cool, thank you.**  **7 MS. HOFFMAN: Any questions or**  **8 comments from the folks on the line? I was**  **9 just going to ask, and I didn't know, about**  **10 the term sheet, should we be playing ground**  **11 with it in advance or how do, you know, how do**  **12 --**  **13 (Simultaneous speaking)**  **14 MR. HAGERMAN: Since Navigant put**  **15 together that outline and they've been keeping**  **16 track of the votes and all of the documents**  **17 that we've been generating and voting on, I**  **18 was going to offer that in the next, over the**  **19 course of the next three weeks, but they're**  **20 going to get it to you before then, they**  **21 compile a record of everything we've been**  **22 voting on and start compiling that term sheet** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 following the outline that we sent around**  **2 earlier.**  **3 MR. UNGAR: Trying to put in a form**  **4 of --**  **5 MS. HOFFMAN: Put it in a format.**  **6 MR. HAGERMAN: Yes.**  **7 MS. HOFFMAN: Is that agreeable?**  **8 MR. HAGERMAN: Or else somebody has**  **9 to raise their hand to do it, which we're**  **10 happy for people's hands to go up right now.**  **11 MR. RAMIREZ: I think I saw Matthew's**  **12 hand raised.**  **13 MS. HOFFMAN: Matthew's hand is**  **14 raised, yes, we saw it, his virtual hand.**  **15 MR. HAGERMAN: I mean everybody's**  **16 been keeping track of everything we've been**  **17 voting on so it shouldn't, you know when we**  **18 compile it it should not be a surprise to you,**  **19 if it's a surprise to you then, you know, we**  **20 have issues or problems.**  **21 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. So I'll add that**  **22 as part of the next agenda review of a draft** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 term sheet.**  **2 MS. HOFFMAN: Right. And hopefully**  **3 we might have that in advance to look over in**  **4 time for the meeting.**  **5 MR. HAGERMAN: Yes, but, I mean for**  **6 sure we'll try to get you that by that Monday,**  **7 I think it's the 20th, before that week. It's**  **8 just what I want to ask them to do is I want**  **9 them to go back over the transcripts to make**  **10 sure that we haven't forgot anything.**  **11 It should be some exciting reading**  **12 for Matthew.**  **13 MS. HOFFMAN: Yes. How is it -- Oh,**  **14 go on, please, Lowell.**  **15 MR. UNGAR: Two things, one in terms**  **16 of homework. Joe, you kind of did it in real**  **17 time, but I'm wondering if we could something**  **18 on heating and cooling degree days in the**  **19 cities for which we, in which our analysis has**  **20 been based so far in the South, and then in a**  **21 number of cities throughout the four states**  **22 suggest again where, for the climate in those** 

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### 1 states what did they look like? **2 MR. MENDLEN: Thank you. Well that's 3 good.**  **4 MR. HAGERMAN: Okay. That's pretty 5 easy to find.**  **6 MR. UNGAR: Yes. I mean obviously it 7 depends, hopefully it can do an average over**  **8 several years because, obviously, they vary. 9 MR. HAGERMAN: ASHRAE keeps a list of**  **10 the average heating and cooling days. The 11 ASHRAE tables have that --**  **12 (Simultaneous speaking) 13 MR. DENNIS: Can we get this one,**  **14 too? 15 MR. HAGERMAN: That's the Rob and Roy**  **16 one? 17 MR. RAMIREZ: I just sent that.**  **18 MR. DENNIS: That was the other one. 19 Oh, you sent it again, okay.**  **20 MR. RAMIREZ: No, I sent two. I sent 21 Emanuel's and Rob and Roy's.**  **22 MR. HAGERMAN: And would it be**

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 helpful for us to draw up the hybrid map, too,**  **2 which is Emanuel's, but just in the one zone**  **3 have the Rob and Roy proposal, does that help**  **4 you?**  **5 MR. DENNIS: Yes. I mean I can do it**  **6 myself or you could do it, yes.**  **7 MS. HOFFMAN: Yes.**  **8 (Simultaneous speaking)**  **9 MR. DENNIS: If we did it that way,**  **10 yes.**  **11 MR. HAGERMAN: Okay. We'll do it and**  **12 we'll send it up.**  **13 MS. HOFFMAN: Great. Let me ask you**  **14 from a facilitator point of view, how is this**  **15 process working for you so far?**  **16 MR. RAMIREZ: Anything that we need**  **17 to consider.**  **18 MS. HOFFMAN: Yes.**  **19 MR. RAMIREZ: Keep doing it or do**  **20 better, do different.**  **21 MS. STARKEY: Yes.**  **22 (Simultaneous speaking)** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MS. HOFFMAN: But even offline you**  **2 can let us know how we might be able to**  **3 improve.**  **4 MR. UNGAR: Yes, I was wondering, my**  **5 main frustration which was finally addressed**  **6 this time was for this key issue of the, you**  **7 know, that we discussed now and we didn't get**  **8 it until two, even started discussing it until**  **9 four or five meetings in.**  **10 MS. HOFFMAN: Yes.**  **11 MR. UNGAR: That it might've been**  **12 nice to have it earlier so they had more time**  **13 to have tried it and work out whatever issues.**  **14 MS. HOFFMAN: Sure.**  **15 MR. UNGAR: But with that said -- Not**  **16 where the zones are, but for the --**  **17 MR. MENDLEN: That's water under the**  **18 bridge.**  **19 MR. UNGAR: Yes, it's kind of water**  **20 under the bridge.**  **21 MS. HOFFMAN: Yes.**  **22 MR. UNGAR: Or the prescriptive and** 

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### 1 Uo values, which, you know, since we now **2 already had discussion that's great. 3 MS. HOFFMAN: Right.**  **4 MR. UNGAR: It's just taking a long 5 time. Until this meeting I had no real idea**  **6 of where we were headed. Now I have a good 7 idea of --**  **8 MS. HOFFMAN: Where we're headed. 9 MR. UNGAR: -- where we're headed,**  **10 what the positions are, you know. 11 MS. HOFFMAN: And that's good.**  **12 MR. UNGAR: And even if I don't know 13 what the resolution is at least I know what**  **14 the views are. 15 MS. HOFFMAN: But if you look at the**  **16 glass as half empty and half full we have 17 three more weeks to deal with that.**  **18 MR. UNGAR: Right. No, because we 19 added the time. We have more time to try to**  **20 work on it. 21 MS. HOFFMAN: Yes, so we have time.**  **22 And I guess we should be bringing these if we**

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 have them to the meeting in Denver?**  **2 MR. HAGERMAN: Yes, I mean we can**  **3 bring those books to the meeting, happy to do**  **4 that.**  **5 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay.**  **6 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, that's a good**  **7 point. If you have your 2015 IECC books**  **8 please bring them in case you need to**  **9 reference them for our last two meets.**  **10 MS. HOFFMAN: Sure.**  **11 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay?**  **12 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay.**  **13 MR. RAMIREZ: I think --**  **14 MR. HAGERMAN: Any other comments?**  **15 MS. HOFFMAN: We thought that we --**  **16 Oh, go on.**  **17 MR. UNGAR: One other thing I heard**  **18 earlier --**  **19 MS. HOFFMAN: Sure.**  **20 MR. UNGAR: -- was labeling has come**  **21 up in a couple forms and I'm not sure where it**  **22 sits. I mean so there's a day question of** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 kind of more informative labels and then there**  **2 was a very narrow one of sizing and it wasn't**  **3 clear to me that that activity processed for**  **4 --**  **5 MS. HOFFMAN: Do you want it on the**  **6 agenda because I think it was discussed also**  **7 as a recommendation or a -- compliance**  **8 recommendation, but we'll definitely have it**  **9 on the agenda.**  **10 MR. HAGERMAN: So could I recommend,**  **11 I know Lois needs to probably say something**  **12 about labeling, too, she put her placard up.**  **13 Is there any way that you and Lois could form**  **14 a, just a quick little subcommittee and**  **15 discuss that in more detail and then bring**  **16 something to the next meeting or we can**  **17 circulate something ahead of the meeting?**  **18 MR. UNGAR: Yes, I'd be happy to --**  **19 MR. HAGERMAN: We don't want to lose**  **20 track of any important item that anybody feels**  **21 is, you know, is critical for this industry,**  **22 so that's not our intent to lose it.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MS. HOFFMAN: So there's a little**  **2 subcommittee that Lois and --**  **3 MR. UNGAR: Yes, add it to the**  **4 homework.**  **5 MR. HAGERMAN: It needs a constituent**  **6 or an owner, right?**  **7 MS. HOFFMAN: Yes.**  **8 MR. HAGERMAN: And I think we found**  **9 the two owners.**  **10 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay. And the other**  **11 thing is is there anything else that we should**  **12 be covering that we haven't that we want to**  **13 make sure?**  **14 MS. STARKEY: Well we talked about**  **15 definitions.**  **16 MS. HOFFMAN: Definitions, good**  **17 point.**  **18 MS. STARKEY: And I raised my hand to**  **19 collect all of the definitions, the ones that**  **20 are in the IRC, the ones that are in the HUD**  **21 Code, and that's probably --**  **22 MS. HOFFMAN: And what --** 

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### 1 MS. STARKEY: -- you know, there **2 might be some tweaking based on what we've 3 discussed here that aren't, but I think**  **4 they're all covered, I mean just basically 5 getting those two together and others.**  **6 MS. HOFFMAN: Why don't you prepare 7 that and have it sent to all of us so we**  **8 could look at it, yes. 9 MS. STARKEY: Okay.**  **10 MS. HOFFMAN: Good, definitions. 11 Excellent.**  **12 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. You know what 13 for our standards three weeks is a long time**  **14 between now and the next meeting, right? 15 MS. HOFFMAN: Yes.**  **16 MR. RAMIREZ: So if anything comes 17 up, if you think of anything, send out the**  **18 email, so let's stay in touch. 19 MS. HOFFMAN: Yes.**  **20 MR. RAMIREZ: All right, thank you 21 all for your hard work. You guys did a great**  **22 job and see you all in Denver.**

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MS. HOFFMAN: Yes. And we thought**  **2 we'd end a little early. I know Rob Luter**  **3 would like to stay later, but we'll say, we're**  **4 going to end now. Thank you. Okay.**  **5 MR. HAGERMAN: Rob can always hang**  **6 out on the line, yes.**  **7 MS. HOFFMAN: I'm teasing, Rob. We**  **8 look forward to seeing you in Denver.**  **9 MR. LUTER: No worries. I'm a team**  **10 player.**  **11 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay. I know, thank**  **12 you very much.**  **13 (Simultaneous speaking)**  **14 MS. HOFFMAN: It's a real pleasure,**  **15 thanks again. All right, we're officially off**  **16 the air.**  **17 (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter**  **18 went off the record at 3:39 p.m.)**  **19 20**  **21 22** 202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **Page 314** A $1,100 209:14 $1,120 201:19 $1,123 201:21 $1,628 201:17 $1,900.24 207:5 $100297:13 $1100 263:14 $130288:9 $2,000 207:4 211:6

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80:12 94:17 95:1 95:5 96:1 97:8 188:7 8.4 127:20 8:00 287:5 9NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com C E R T I F I C A T E

This is to certify that the foregoing transcript

In the matter of:

Before:

Date:

Place:

was duly recorded and accurately transcribed under my direction; further, that said transcript is a true and accurate record of the proceedings.

----------------------- Court Reporter 352

Manufactured Housing Work Group

US DOE

10-02-14

Washington, DC