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 U.S. DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY

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 MANUFACTURED HOUSING WORKING GROUP

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 PUBLIC MEETING

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 THURSDAY

 OCTOBER 2, 2014

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 The Public Meeting met in Room 6097,

950 L'Enfant Plaza, S.W., Washington, D.C., at

9:00 a.m., Eileen Hoffman and Javier Ramirez, 

Meeting Facilitators, presiding.

PRESENT

EILEEN HOFFMAN, Federal Mediation and 

 Conciliation Service, Facilitator

JAVIER RAMIREZ, Federal Mediation and 

 Conciliation Service, Facilitator

TED BANTLE, Federal Mediation and 

 Conciliation Service

KEITH DENNIS, National Rural Electric 

 Cooperative Association

ISHBEL DICKENS, National Manufactured Home 

 Owners Association*

SCOTT DRAKE, East Kentucky Power 

 Cooperative*

MARK EZZO, Clayton Homes, Inc.*

JOSEPH HAGERMAN, U.S. Department of Energy

RICHARD HANGER, Housing Technology and 

 Standards*

BERT KESSLER, Palm Harbor Homes, Inc.*

ERIC LACEY, Responsible Energy Codes 

 Alliance
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MICHAEL EMANUEL LEVY, Systems Building 

 Research Alliance*

MICHAEL LUBLINER, Washington State 

 University Extension Energy Program*

ROBERT LUTER, Lippert Components, Inc.*

RICHARD POTTS, Virginia Department of 

 Housing and Community Development*

ROBIN ROY, Natural Resource Defense Council

MANUEL SANTANA, Cavco Industries*

PETER SCHNEIDER, Efficiency Vermont*

LOIS STARKEY, Manufactured Housing Institute

DAVID TOMPOS, NTA, Inc.

LOWELL UNGAR, American Council for an 

 Energy-Efficient Economy

MICHAEL WADE, Cavalier Home Builders*

MARK WEISS, Manufactured Housing Association

ALSO PRESENT

EDWARD BARBOUR, Navigant

MICHAEL JENSEN, Office of General Council, 

 U.S. Department of Energy

RICK MENDLEN, Department of Housing and 

 Urban and Urban Development

KAVITA VAIDYANATHAN, Office of General 

 Counsel, Department of Energy

MATTHEW WALKER, Navigant

MICHAEL ZIEMAN, RADCO

*present via teleconference
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 T-A-B-L-E O-F C-O-N-T-E-N-T-S

Welcome and Introductions. . . . . . . . . . . 4

 Eileen Hoffman

Overview of Agenda . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7

 Javier Ramirez

Working Group Comments . . . . . . . . . . . .10

Discussion:

 Uo Values . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .63

 Prescriptive numbers. . . . . . . . . . . . .90

 Climate Zones . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 152

Action Items . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Subcommittee Reports . . . . . . . . . . . . 271

Recommendations for ASRAC. . . . . . . . . . 280

Logistics for Denver . . . . . . . . . . . . 288

Public Comment . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 297
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1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S

2 (9:11 a.m.)

3 MS. HOFFMAN: Welcome to the second

4 day of our meeting, October 2nd, the

5 Manufactured Housing Working Group, part of

6 ASRAC's charter to deal with energy efficiency

7 standards.

8 We had a very long and productive

9 meeting yesterday. I'm Eileen Hoffman, one of

10 our co-facilitators. And we'll go around the

11 room in a moment and see who's here. We'll go

12 and I'll mention who's on the line.

13 And just before we start, I do want

14 to mention yesterday we had all 22 members of

15 the committee either here or virtually, and we

16 want to make sure also that everyone

17 participates.

18 So if you have a question or want to

19 make a comment, we will make sure that you get

20 your air time. This is your process and we

21 want you to be very much a part of it.

22 We're getting close to some
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1 deadlines that are very important and we'll be

2 pushing a little, but we also want to make

3 sure that we hear from everyone.

4 Okay, so starting with Javier, we'll

5 go around the room.

6 MR. RAMIREZ: All right. So let me

7 just hit a couple little logistical things. 

8 Folks that are on line, if you could stay

9 muted until you want to say something and then

10 you could hit the mute button. That way we

11 don't get any background noise.

12 MR. HAGERMAN: Particularly you.

13 MR. RAMIREZ: And then also just be

14 careful of the cords around the room. And

15 then Debbie, the administrative assistant

16 that's been great helping us with the room

17 here, has asked for all of you to drop your

18 business card into the basket there so that

19 way she could keep track of everyone that was

20 here today.

21 So I'm Javier Ramirez with Federal

22 Aviation.
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1 MR. ROY: Robin Roy, Natural

2 Resources Defense Council.

3 MR. TOMPOS: David Tompos, NTA.

4 MR. WEISS: Mark Weiss, Manufactured

5 Housing Association for Regulatory Reform.

6 MR. UNGAR: Lowell Ungar, American

7 Council for an Energy Efficient Economy.

8 MR. WALKER: Matthew Walker,

9 Navigant.

10 MS. STARKEY: Lois Starkey, the

11 Manufactured Housing Institute.

12 MR. LACEY: Eric Lacey, Responsible

13 Energy Codes Alliance.

14 MR. HAGERMAN: Joe Hagerman, DOE.

15 MS. VAIDYANATHAN: Kavita

16 Vaidyanathan, DOE General Counsel's Office.

17 MR. JENSEN: Michael Jensen, DOE

18 General Counsel.

19 MR. BARBOUR: Ed Barbour, Navigant.

20 MR. ZIEMAN: Mike Zieman with RADCO.

21 MS. HOFFMAN: All right, thank you. 

22 And now I'm going to list the people that are
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1 on the line. Ishbel Dickens, National

2 Manufactured Home Association; Scott Drake,

3 East Kentucky Power Cooperative; Mark Ezzo,

4 Clayton Homes; Richard Hanger, Housing

5 Technology Standards; Bert Kessler, Palm

6 Harbor Homes; Emanuel Levy, Systems Building

7 Research Alliance; Michael Lubliner,

8 Washington State University Extension Energy

9 Program; Rob Luter, Lippert Components;

10 Richard Potts, Virginia Department of Housing

11 and Community Development; Peter Schneider,

12 Efficiency Vermont; Michael Wade; and Amy

13 Bernard who is the proxy for Stacey Epperson. 

14 Okay.

15 MR. RAMIREZ: All right, so let's do

16 a quick review of the agenda that we have for

17 today. So we'll start off with any working

18 group comments, and then we want to continue

19 the discussion on the Uo values.

20 I believe Matthew was busy yesterday

21 doing some homework, and so we're going to

22 take another look at that. And once we do
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1 that we want to see if we could actually get

2 consensus on what those values should be. And

3 then see if there's any additional action

4 items such as the compliance pass or anything

5 else that we could reach agreement on.

6 Climate zones, I would like to have

7 a little bit of discussion on that but I

8 understand that that's still tabled. But

9 there's some ideas I've been floating around

10 for ways to look at it and I'd like for you to

11 hear that.

12 After lunch we'll see if we still

13 need any additional time for action items. 

14 And then subcommittee reports, if any. I'm

15 not sure if there any that we are going to

16 need, but it's there in case we do.

17 And then have a discussion on what

18 recommendations you would like to make to

19 ASRAC as far as keeping the group together for

20 the compliance issues or any of the

21 recommendations that we have for them.

22 Then discuss the logistics for
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1 Denver, and then public comment. Any

2 questions on the agenda?

3 We just had a couple of -- sorry,

4 yes, questions on the agenda?

5 MR. LEVY: Yes, it's Michael Levy. 

6 Earlier, I requested that perhaps at about 11

7 o'clock to present a proposed modified map

8 with some Uo values reflecting the

9 conversation yesterday.

10 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay.

11 MR. LEVY: Is that appropriate?

12 MR. HAGERMAN: I think it's great. 

13 This is Joe Hagerman, Emanuel. I think it's

14 great and I think it fits nicely in the 11

15 o'clock climate zone table for industry

16 discussion conversation. So well timed.

17 MR. RAMIREZ: Great. And I haven't

18 had a chance to look at my email, so I will

19 make sure that during one of the breaks that

20 we get it so that the whole group could see

21 it.

22 MS. HOFFMAN: And we have two people
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1 who have joined us.

2 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes. Keith, do you

3 want to introduce yourself?

4 MR. DENNIS: Sure. Keith Dennis,

5 National Rural Electrical Cooperative

6 Association, and Rick.

7 MS. HOFFMAN: Rick, an observer?

8 MR. MENDLEN: Rick Mendlen, HUD.

9 MR. RAMIREZ: All right. Then, Joe?

10 MR. HAGERMAN: Since we're in

11 working group comment section, I just wanted

12 to touch on a little bit how we left off

13 yesterday. Matthew is about to explain the

14 difference in the Uo tables that we showed, up

15 on the screen.

16 You know, the DOE life cycle tool

17 and ten-year residual analysis had slightly

18 different Uo values than what was on, I

19 believe, Page 5 of the manual document, so

20 he'll talk about those differences.

21 After talking with Matthew, I think

22 we should revert to Emanuel's table because I
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1 think they're more reflective of the costs

2 that were included, so we should, you know,

3 take that in consideration. But, you know,

4 that's my personal recommendation, but let's

5 hear from Matthew and Emanuel about that. But

6 I'm comfortable with that.

7 And then the second thing was, you

8 know, at lunch yesterday you asked me to check

9 with PNNL about the Manual J and Manual S. 

10 And, you know, maybe we could tackle that

11 first or maybe we could tackle the Uo

12 discussion first. It's up to Javier.

13 But what PNNL told me was it would

14 not be, you know, Manual J applies to all

15 buildings and manufactured housings are

16 different.

17 The one thing that Manual J requires

18 is that you pick an orientation to do your

19 sizing, of course, and since when you build a

20 house you don't necessarily know how it's

21 going to be oriented on the site, you'd have

22 to assume a worst case situation, right.
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1 But it's all very practical. They

2 offer that they could, you know, incorporate

3 some of that in REScheck. REScheck currently

4 doesn't do a Manual J calculation when it does

5 the sizing. It does the UA, I think Eric

6 probably knows that. UA alternative.

7 But the results would be close to

8 the same, right? But they offered to make the

9 modifications in REScheck or make that

10 simplified tool for the industry. We just

11 need to, if the workgroup feels like that

12 would be helpful, if you all choose to vote on

13 the Manual J requirement in the IECC

14 discussion, we can easily in the

15 recommendations include that PNNL should

16 modify some tools.

17 Let's just keep in mind that

18 whatever the workgroup feels is necessary for

19 the industry to more easily meet this new

20 standard, if it's something, whether it's

21 education or other tools that you feel are

22 necessary or some research that needs to be
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1 done or whatever, you know, whatever it is,

2 let's make that recommendation to the ASRAC

3 committee and PNNL can take that up through

4 our other discretionary programs, our research

5 and development programs like Building America

6 or the codes and standard program, right.

7 We have those available, the means

8 to do education, public outreach, whatever we

9 need to do, to make this less burdensome to

10 the industry. So anyway I put that offer on

11 the table, and that's my findings for the

12 Manual J and Manual S.

13 But my recommendation is we include

14 the Manual J and Manual S provision in the

15 terms sheet, but we should have discussions of

16 that.

17 MR. RAMIREZ: Well, any other

18 working group -- I'm sorry. Lois?

19 MS. STARKEY: Joe, I just wanted to

20 thank you for that offer, and the Department

21 of Energy. I think that's excellent. I think

22 it'll be very, appreciate the offer and I'm
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1 sure it'll be very well received by, I'm sure

2 there will be some recommendations.

3 (Simultaneous speaking)

4 MR. HAGERMAN: Yes, I mean we're

5 here to help, right? I mean whatever we can

6 do to make this thing a huge success for the

7 industry, right. We want the analyst's

8 shipments to go up and we want people to save

9 a lot of energy.

10 MR. EZZO: This is Mark Ezzo. Can I

11 make a comment on that?

12 MR. HAGERMAN: Sure.

13 MR. EZZO: I'd like to recommend

14 exactly what Joe just offered that our

15 committee ask for ASRAC to provide a tool,

16 it's called REScheck, REScheck modified tool

17 that would accommodate, you know, whatever we

18 come up with for Uo values per zone and have

19 a REScheck tool that would perform, you know,

20 compliance calculation to whatever we come up

21 with.

22 And then in addition, have that same
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1 REScheck tool provide an equipment sizing

2 recommendation as well. I think that would be

3 real helpful for not only manufacturers but

4 people doing equipment sizing in the field and

5 anybody else who wanted to use the tool. I

6 think it would be real handy for us to have.

7 MR. LUBLINER: This is Mike

8 Lubliner.

9 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, Michael.

10 MR. LUBLINER: Yes, I totally

11 support where Mark and Joe are going. I was

12 on the Manual S committee at ACCA and we

13 learned a lot about sizing of equipment,

14 particularly heat pumps and how it varies in

15 different climates and how without the proper

16 sizing you're not getting the performance that

17 you think you're getting and what we're

18 assuming in the analysis, which is an

19 idealized HSPF or SEER for the air

20 conditioner.

21 I'd also encourage you, if DOE's

22 able, to include a duct sizing guide for
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1 ensuring that the air flow you're getting

2 through the air conditioner is adequate,

3 because that too will dramatically impact the

4 performance of the air conditioner or the heat

5 pump. I think it's great.

6 So I would just add a Manual D to

7 that for our wish list in Building America

8 here. Thank you.

9 MR. RAMIREZ: All right, so let's go

10 ahead and gauge consensus on that. It seems

11 like there a lot of support for it. So

12 basically what, and let me make sure I get

13 this right.

14 You're asking to make a

15 recommendation to ASRAC that Manual J and

16 Manual S be considered by PNNL as a REScheck

17 tool to perform compliance, cost and equipment

18 and duct size.

19 MR. LACEY: I think cost was

20 included in there.

21 (Off microphone comments)

22 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, Manny.
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1 MR. SANTANA: I think that it's a

2 little premature to, I don't think we have the

3 Manual J, Manual S calc.

4 What I was hearing is that you might

5 recommend that DOE develop some kind of online

6 compliance tool to do the performance

7 evaluation via whatever it is that we end up,

8 whether it's Manual J and S or something else. 

9 That's what I would understand.

10 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. So it's

11 something else.

12 MR. HAGERMAN: So, yes, I agree with

13 you, Manny. So let's do this. Can we all go

14 back to your subcommittee's handout and talk

15 about the requirement R403.7, the equipment

16 sizing and efficiency ratings?

17 MR. RAMIREZ: Again, sorry folks. 

18 You don't have it online because we thought we

19 were going to go on to some, Matthew. Does

20 everyone that's online, do you have that?

21 MR. HAGERMAN: Yes, and I'm happy to

22 read it real quick to everybody.
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1 MS. HOFFMAN: Why don't you do that?

2 MR. HAGERMAN: I'm just going to do

3 that. So it's on, looks like it's on Page 5

4 of Manny's handout. At the very bottom, it's

5 highlighted in yellow.

6 It says "R403.7 Equipment Sizing and

7 Efficiency Rating," and in parentheses,

8 "Mandatory." It says "Heating and cooling

9 equipment shall be sized in accordance with

10 ACCA Manual S, based on building loads

11 calculated in accordance with ACCA Manual J

12 or other approved heating and cooling

13 calculation methodologies.

14 "New or replacement heating and

15 cooling equipment shall have an efficiency

16 rating equal to or greater than the minimum

17 required by federal law for the geographic

18 location where the equipment is installed."

19 MR. LUBLINER: This is Mike

20 Lubliner.

21 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, Michael.

22 MR. LUBLINER: Yes, I'm wondering if
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1 we can address Mark and my support of Manual

2 S and J here. I'd like to add Manual D, but

3 I also address Manny's concern by just saying

4 referencing those standards or equivalent. 

5 And that way if somebody comes up with

6 something that's equivalent that it could be

7 also integrated in that.

8 But I think we want to accept at

9 least in principle the Manual J, S, and I

10 would strongly encourage ACCA Manual D. 

11 They're a package because there's something

12 enforced there about the systems in the

13 industry.

14 MR. HAGERMAN: So your

15 recommendation would read, heating and cooling

16 equipment shall be sized in accordance with

17 ACCA Manual S based on building laws

18 calculated in accordance with Manual J, ACCA

19 Manual J, and following ACCA Manual D or other

20 equivalent heating and cooling calculation

21 methodologies?

22 MR. LUBLINER: Couldn't have said it
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1 better myself, Joe.

2 MS. HOFFMAN: Peter and then Dave.

3 Peter?

4 MR. SCHNEIDER: I was just going to

5 concur with Michael. I support that language

6 as well. I think that --

7 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay, thank you.

8 MR. TOMPOS: Dave Tompos. Manual D

9 is not in here, and I'm just curious of is it

10 in the IECC at all?

11 MR. HAGERMAN: Mike Lubliner, could

12 you describe what Manual D is?

13 MR. LUBLINER: Manual D is, once

14 you've done the Manual J in heating loss that

15 you do Manual S in sizing equipment, then if 

16 the equipment is forced air heating or cooling

17 equipment as is this industry's equipment,

18 then you do a Manual D to size the duct work

19 to make sure that you're getting the 400 cfm

20 per ton required so that you achieve the HSPF

21 or SEER that we're assuming in the thermal

22 analysis.
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1 My experience has been that quite

2 often when you get into the larger units with

3 the standard trunk duct system and a coil that

4 many times it's challenging to get to the 400

5 cfm per ton.

6 So the other option if we're not

7 going to include Manual D is to derate the

8 equipment in the thermal analysis which I'm

9 not recommending.

10 MR. ROY: This is Robin. Does

11 anybody know why Manual D is not referenced in

12 IECC?

13 MR. LACEY: This is Eric. It might

14 --

15 (Simultaneous speaking)

16 MS. HOFFMAN: Eric is speaking.

17 MR. LACEY: Maybe he knows more than

18 I do about this, so --

19 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay, Michael? You

20 can continue.

21 MR. LUBLINER: I was going to say,

22 Manual D, I understand, isn't the I-codes. 
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1 It's specific to ducting systems. But I think

2 I would strongly recommend that we include it,

3 or in the Building America research determine

4 if the air flows are adequate as is.

5 But again when you don't get the 400

6 cfm per ton, which, you know, for a four-ton

7 air conditioner it is a lot of flow. I don't

8 know if you guys ever mention the flow rates

9 of your forced air heating systems, but it's

10 hard to achieve that in certain situations. 

11 So what you're doing is you're

12 reducing the performance of the heating

13 equipment or the cooling equipment, and we're

14 assuming the equipment is performing at 400

15 cfm per ton.

16 So even though this is not in the I17 codes, I would recommend that we incorporate

18 it into our codes. So what we talked about

19 was being able to incorporate things that were

20 not always in the I-codes, and this is a

21 realistic and legitimate one, and if you don't

22 incorporate it, I would encourage DOE to do
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1 its own research on the side to see if the

2 assumptions in the model are being met. Thank

3 you.

4 MR. SANTANA: Manny with Cavco.

5 MR. POTTS: This is Richard.

6 MR. RAMIREZ: Let's get Manny and

7 then Richard. Yes, Manny?

8 MR. SANTANA: Going back to the

9 concept of beating an element, I suggest we

10 talk about R403.7 and its own merits first and

11 then move on to any other additional

12 suggestions.

13 You know, there's plenty to discuss

14 with this section itself. So that's

15 suggestion number one. I guess number two is

16 reading R403.7, it does include the options

17 for other methodologies.

18 I would just, the term "approved"

19 would have to be tightened up a little bit

20 unless that's understood to mean approved by

21 HUD or approved by DOE or approved by who

22 exactly. So we have to define that.
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1 Also, the line on new or replacement

2 heating or cooling equipment, I think that

3 every equipment should be considered new

4 because it's new construction. Retrofit 

5 replacement through outside of our scope of

6 factory.

7 So I think both new or replacement

8 should be removed and we just call it, heating

9 and cooling equipment shall have, et cetera,

10 et cetera.

11 MR. HAGERMAN: This is Joe Hagerman. 

12 I think you can strike the last sentence that

13 says "new or replacement heating equipment

14 shall have the efficiency rating equal to or

15 greater than the minimum required by federal

16 law." I mean that's a law. You've got to do

17 that anyway. You can't buy the stuff that's

18 lower than law. So it's a redundant sentence. 

19 We can strike that sentence.

20 MR. ROY: So Manny's proposal is

21 that, essential to me is to insert the word

22 "DOE" before the word "approved" in the first
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1 sentence. Manual J or other DOE approved

2 heating and cooling calculation methodologies.

3 MR. SANTANA: Manny again. That

4 might be that's up to somebody else, I guess,

5 the enforcement committee. Because I don't

6 know if DOE is going to approve the

7 methodology or recommend or send that to the

8 current HUD infrastructure.

9 You know, we don't know how that's

10 going to play out. But I think if we just put

11 that, maybe highlight that or put it in

12 quotations so we know it's still up in the

13 air.

14 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay, Mark?

15 MR. WEISS: To recognize Rick.

16 MR. MENDLEN: Thank you. For HUD to

17 accept it, we don't accept the terms "other

18 approved" or even "equivalent" or anything

19 like that. For the purpose of enforcement we

20 have to define what it is, specifically what

21 it is that we're talking about.

22 So if there's a DOE document that
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1 becomes equivalent to Manual J and Manual S

2 that's fine. But I have to have a name for it

3 and we'll have to reference it specifically. 

4 Just for purposes of enforcement just as Manny

5 just said.

6 MR. RAMIREZ: You know, I skipped

7 over Richard. So let me go back to Richard

8 and then Joe and then Michael.

9 MR. POTTS: Yes, this is Richard

10 Potts. We were talking about Manual D and

11 whatever's referenced in the I-codes. While

12 it's not recognized or referenced in the IECC,

13 it is in the IRC under duct systems.

14 I mean I do think it's a good idea

15 to use that standard for designing ducts. You

16 know, pressure balancing is a big issue and I

17 know there's a lot of in homes. If you have

18 a pressure valve event between -- 

19 (Simultaneous speaking)

20 --some of those issues. But it is

21 under duct systems for Manual C in the IRC.

22 MR. RAMIREZ: Thank you.
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1 Joe?

2 MR. HAGERMAN: Just two things about

3 the approved. First of all, on Page R7 of the

4 IECC, approved is a defined term, right. It

5 says approved by the code official as a result

6 of investigation tests conducted by whoever or

7 et cetera, et cetera.

8 So I think too, here in R403.7,

9 we've got to recognize two things here. One

10 is, some of this equipment is shipped from the

11 factory so if there would be approval of an

12 equivalent tool that would seem like it would

13 be in DOE's jurisdiction, right?

14 And DOE has a history of, there's a

15 tax credit or used to be a tax credit called

16 179D where we had to approve software and

17 equivalent methods and it took us 30 days. I

18 mean people would submit it, we'd review it

19 and we'd approve it. It's not a laborious

20 process, right?

21 So we had a history of doing that so

22 it's not the purpose of the department. And
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1 then second, we have to recognize 403.7 would

2 cover the equipment that is installed in the

3 site, right, so the local code official would

4 have jurisdiction over that equipment. So we

5 just sort of have to, don't we have to rectify

6 the two? So I don't think DOE approved is

7 actually, would work.

8 MR. UNGAR: I don't understand the

9 last point.

10 MR. HAGERMAN: The last point is so

11 if, you know, I think when the equipment's not

12 shipped by the manufacturer, right, the local

13 code authority would have approval over what

14 methods are used to size the equipment, right.

15 MR. UNGAR: You're saying that you

16 think that it would apply to replacement

17 equipment. That the standard we're talking

18 about would apply to replacement equipment

19 with enforcement under the local code

20 jurisdiction?

21 MR. HAGERMAN: That's right.

22 MR. UNGAR: So we should --
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1 MR. HAGERMAN: Some states or some

2 jurisdiction may require you to pull permit,

3 right, and the code official gets involved and

4 they may say that, they may want to have the

5 authority to put some different sizing

6 methodology in.

7 MR. ROY: Joe, is it not the case

8 that everything that we're doing here relates

9 only to what's done in the factory? So the

10 local code official is --

11 (Simultaneous speaking)

12 MR. UNGAR: I mean we're talking

13 about DOE only.

14 MR. RAMIREZ: Let me get Michael. 

15 Michael, Mark and then Lowell.

16 MR. LUBLINER: Yes. I think that if

17 we are specific with Manual S, Manual D,

18 Manual J and allow alternatives that that's

19 acceptable. I don't understand why we would

20 want to hold it up because we don't what those

21 alternatives are.

22 I think a 30-day turnaround from DOE
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1 would be great if there was something that's

2 submitted in equivalent sizing method. I

3 would be concerned about HUD doing that

4 because they haven't been able to turn things

5 around very quickly.

6 So I would support DOE providing

7 assistance if somebody was to come and show an

8 alternative, but I think we have good sizing

9 ANSI standards.

10 The National Technology Transfer Act

11 says the government should use recognized

12 standards before developing its own standards. 

13 And I think that utilizing the sizing tool

14 from the national labs that uses Manual S,

15 Manual J, Manual D would be ideal.

16 It would save the manufacturers

17 money on software development, allow them to

18 move forward with building a home that's got

19 adequately sized heating equipment, air

20 conditioning equipment and duct systems. That

21 will afford the consumer to put in a smaller

22 HVAC system which will further save the
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1 consumer money.

2 As to an assumption that these

3 things are inspected by local jurisdictions,

4 I think you'd really need to check that

5 assumption. Quite often the installation of

6 the equipment is supposed to be done to the

7 heating or cooling certificate provided by the

8 manufacturer. And I'd like to see that

9 heating and cooling certificate reflect the

10 sizing using Manual S on it.

11 And that way, anybody who puts the

12 equipment in or inspects the equipment after

13 market, whether it's retrofit or on the first

14 sale, knows exactly what the size air

15 conditioner and the ducts that were built for

16 the house, what the proper tonnage is to

17 accommodate that system. Thank you.

18 MR. RAMIREZ: All right, so then

19 let's get Mark and then Lowell.

20 MR. WEISS: Well, if you're going to

21 put DOE in there -- Mark Weiss, MHARR. If

22 you're going to put DOE in there, put HUD in
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1 there too. DOE or HUD.

2 MR. UNGAR: So a few things. 

3 Putting Manual D in makes sense to me. It

4 seems to be an energy issue also and would be

5 consistent with IECC. Since we're in general

6 taking now direct references to IRC, to put it

7 in here from what I know makes sense. 

8 There's nothing as far as I know in the

9 statute that limits us to the factory. There

10 obviously would be an enforcement issue to the

11 extent we go beyond the factory and, you know,

12 so far we've only discussed things that can be

13 done in the factory.

14 But I'll just note for the record at

15 least that I don't think there's to my

16 knowledge a legal limitation on that. In any

17 case, whether or not it's the factory or who's

18 doing the enforcement, it seems to me that if

19 you're talking about approving a methodology

20 for sizing that that can be done by a

21 centralized expert authority rather than by

22 local jurisdiction.
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1 And for IECC, IECC is not going to

2 do that if there's not an obvious choice, but

3 just for our purposes there is, and to me it

4 makes sense to have one approval agency. And

5 given that this energy code, I think it makes

6 sense to me for this to be DOE unless there

7 are issues that go beyond DOE and this energy

8 code that I'm not aware of.

9 I forgot my last point. I'll stop

10 there.

11 MR. HAGERMAN: This is Joe. I mean

12 I don't think our statute, the GC would have

13 to comment. I don't think our statute can

14 probably tell HUD to do anything. Is that

15 right? We only have jurisdiction of

16 ourselves.

17 MR. JENSEN: This is Mike Jensen

18 from DOEGC. The only limitation in the

19 statutory authority is that I believe the

20 statute says that DOE is to set energy

21 efficiency standards for manufacturers of

22 manufactured housing.
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1 The term "manufacturers" is not

2 defined in the statute. Theoretically, the

3 group can define that term any way that it

4 wants. Of course that being said, the term

5 "manufacturer" is defined in that code.

6 MR. LUBLINER: This is Mike

7 Lubliner.

8 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, Michael.

9 MR. LUBLINER: My understanding is

10 that the HUD program requires that the

11 manufacturer provide a heating and cooling

12 certificate with the home, permanently affixed

13 to the home, to allow for the after market

14 correct sizing of that equipment.

15 So I think it's fully under the DOE

16 statute to be able to suggest the appropriate

17 ANSI approved software for sizing and heating

18 equipment.

19 MR. UNGAR: Sorry, that reminded me

20 of my last -- okay. That it makes a lot of

21 sense to me to put on the certificate in a

22 home a worst case sizing, appropriate sizing
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1 for worst case placement of the home.

2 You know, for then, for after market

3 replacement there will be in the home itself

4 a description of, you know, there's no reason

5 they should put in any equipment larger than

6 what's on the certificate. And that certainly

7 could be done at the factory and it seems to

8 me would be enormously helpful.

9 So I think that would be an

10 appropriate way of as a minimum of addressing

11 replacement equipment, or any equipment that's

12 put in after the factory.

13 MR. RAMIREZ: Mark?

14 MR. WEISS: Mark Weiss, MHARR. I

15 think HUD retains full jurisdiction over all

16 aspects of regulation, manufactured housing

17 safety and construction. Further, in those

18 specifically given the DOE under this statute

19 and pending some authoritative determination

20 of that I think HUD should be in there.

21 It's authoritative determination of

22 the scope of that delegation to DOE in
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1 abrogation of HUD's otherwise comprehensive

2 jurisdiction over the subject.

3 MR. UNGAR: Can I ask, Mark, can you

4 explain? I know we're talking about a DOE

5 standard. I mean I'm just not getting what

6 the HUD jurisdiction over the specific

7 question of the building loads and heating --

8 MR. WEISS: HUD has comprehensive

9 jurisdiction over the construction and safety

10 of manufactured housing except over what was

11 specifically delegated by Congress to DOE

12 under the statute.

13 (Simultaneous speaking)

14 MR. WEISS: The statute further

15 directs DOE to consult with HUD with respect

16 to those standards. So the statute itself

17 does not cut HUD completely out of the

18 standards making process.

19 Therefore, until somebody tells me

20 otherwise, I'm with HUD that still have the

21 authority to have a role in this process with

22 regard to these issues.
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1 MR. UNGAR: So in setting the

2 standard, DOE is suddenly required to consult

3 with HUD quite, I'm sure, properly, and so I

4 hope will do so fully.

5 What I'm not understanding is, do

6 you think that in approving, I mean the

7 equivalent, I guess, would be that if somebody

8 proposes an alternative sizing calculation

9 methodology, do you think DOE needs to consult

10 with HUD before approving that methodology?

11 MR. WEISS: I'm sitting here, I

12 don't know. All I know is I don't want to cut

13 out any more of HUD's authority and role in

14 jurisdiction other than what's specifically

15 provided under the statute. If there be

16 consultation, I'm not willing to excise HUD

17 from this.

18 MR. UNGAR: Do you think there's

19 reason for consultation on that question of

20 approving the methodology --

21 (Simultaneous speaking)

22 MR. UNGAR: -- have an objection to
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1 it. But obviously it will slow the process

2 down. I believe in industry if that's really

3 something you want that's what you want, not

4 that I would object to it.

5 MR. WEISS: I mean I could argue

6 there's basis for consultation on everything

7 going forward including continuing updates of

8 the code and updates of enforcement. So why

9 not this too?

10 MR. UNGAR: Absolutely, in

11 consultation in updating the standard, I would

12 agree.

13 MR. HAGERMAN: So could we not just

14 put -- this is Joe Hagerman, DOE. Could we

15 not just say to Mark's point, DOE consultation

16 with HUD in this? Seems like to just reflect

17 the statute is the most logical thing to do if

18 the concern is really valid.

19 I mean I don't really think we have

20 the authority to tell HUD to do anything to be

21 honest with you. So it's our statute. We

22 can't say, another way of looking at it, we
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1 can't in our statute tell HUD and other

2 departments you've got to do anything, right? 

3 We don't have jurisdiction or approval, right?

4 MS. STARKEY: I'd like to call the

5 question on this issue and --

6 MALE PARTICIPANT: Just take a vote?

7 MS. STARKEY: -- take a vote. I

8 think we're getting a little too down in the

9 weeds and we need to have offline conversation

10 about this issue.

11 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. Let's make sure

12 that we understand what we're -- now are you

13 saying to this question or to 403.7?

14 MS. STARKEY: 403.7.

15 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay, so 403.7, in

16 listening to you all this is what I have.

17 403.7 would read, equipment sizing and

18 efficiency rating mandatory.

19 And then it says, heating and

20 cooling equipment shall be sized in accordance

21 with ACCA Manual S based on building loads

22 calculated in accordance with ACCA Manual J
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1 and following Manual D or other DOE approved

2 heating and cooling calculation methodologies,

3 period. Let me see a show of thumbs. First,

4 is that you what you agree? Is that what

5 everyone has been talking about?

6 MR. UNGAR: I thought we were

7 talking about the "approved" needed some --

8 MR. HAGERMAN: I think we're moving

9 to a full load of all R403.7 as he just read

10 it.

11 MR. RAMIREZ: With just approved,

12 DOE.

13 MR. HAGERMAN: With DOE approved?

14 MR. RAMIREZ: I didn't hear the DOE.

15 (Simultaneous speaking)

16 MALE PARTICIPANT: DOE approved.

17 MS. HOFFMAN: Do you need to say it

18 again?

19 MR. HAGERMAN: Yes, read it again,

20 but end with the Manual D provisions.

21 MS. HOFFMAN: Why don't you read it

22 slowly?
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1 MR. SANTANA: Can you type it on the

2 screen?

3 MS. HOFFMAN: Oh, can you type it? 

4 Actually it's your computer.

5 (Simultaneous speaking)

6 MR. RAMIREZ: I'm going to email it

7 to Matthew real quick.

8 MR. HAGERMAN: I think we'll email

9 it, and give us two seconds.

10 MS. HOFFMAN: Because I think it's

11 important.

12 MR. HAGERMAN: We'll see how fast

13 the electrons are today.

14 MS. HOFFMAN: By the way, Emily, has

15 anyone else joined online?

16 EMILY: Manny's online.

17 (Off microphone comments)

18 MR. LUBLINER: This is Mike

19 Lubliner.

20 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, Michael?

21 MR. LUBLINER: Yes, I just hope we

22 cannot get into discussions about who has
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1 jurisdiction between --

2 MR. RAMIREZ: Let me stop you right

3 here because we just ended that. So we're

4 just waiting for --

5 MR. LUBLINER: Very good. Very

6 good.

7 MR. RAMIREZ: We're just waiting for

8 the Outlook to pop up here which in my

9 computer too is painfully slow to open. But

10 as soon as that does then we'll show you the

11 language in there and if you need to make any

12 additional edits we'll do so.

13 Mark?

14 MR. WEISS: Just one final comment. 

15 You know, this is an issue that might appear

16 minor on its face, but potentially it has

17 significant consequences down the road which

18 is why I addressed it.

19 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay, thank you.

20 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. Let's see if we

21 could --

22 MS. HOFFMAN: Can you make it
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1 bigger?

2 MR. RAMIREZ: All right, so the

3 folks that are online you should have it in

4 front of you now. And just to make sure that

5 everyone is consistent and also for the

6 record, I'll read it one more time.

7 "Heating and cooling equipment shall

8 be sized in accordance with ACCA Manual S

9 based on building loads calculated in

10 accordance with ACCA Manual J and following

11 Manual D or other DOE approved heating and

12 cooling calculation methodologies."

13 MR. UNGAR: Can we, after the HUD,

14 deal with punctuation so that --

15 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes.

16 MALE PARTICIPANT: DOE approved

17 applies across the board not just to Manual D

18 as it sounds like.

19 MR. RAMIREZ: And I appreciate that

20 you're saying, and let's do the content that

21 we did, wordsmith it. Okay. So let me see a

22 show of thumbs if 403.7 as shown on the screen
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1 is acceptable.

2 Okay, we have two thumbs down in the

3 room, and anyone online with their thumbs

4 down?

5 MR. SANTANA: I have thumbs down. 

6 Manny.

7 MR. RAMIREZ: Manny. Do either one

8 of you three want to talk briefly about --

9 Mark, we know why. David?

10 MR. TOMPOS: I just had technical

11 issues potentially. I don't know exactly what

12 Manual J, D and S, because I'm thinking that

13 Manual J is a heat loss calc based on a room14 by-room calculation. And I need to do a

15 little more research into Manual J.

16 I mean I wasn't expecting to look at

17 this. I need to look at it in more detail. 

18 So I'm just concerned there's some, especially

19 in Manual D on how we do duct designs, I'd

20 like to take an example home and somebody walk

21 through the actual calculations and make sure

22 we can still do this.
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1 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. Manny, what

2 concerns did you have?

3 MR. SANTANA: The objection that I

4 have revolves around Manual D, and for the

5 following reason. Everything else in this

6 section is in the IECC currently and

7 everything else in this section is mandatory

8 in the IECC.

9 Manual D is just something we're

10 throwing in there without any explanation to

11 impact either on cost or manufacturing or

12 procurement of supplies, without knowing

13 exactly how it's going to affect industry.

14 And there are mandates that we have,

15 our charters, so to speak, say that we can

16 implement things that are above and beyond if

17 it's cost effective. And we haven't given any

18 thought, we haven't had any discussions,

19 there's been no merit to substantiate it. 

20 And, you know, I'm not opposed to

21 considering it, but I think the addition of

22 Manual D is premature considering this
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1 section. You know, I think we consider this

2 section first. If you remove Manual D then

3 I'm thumbs up. But with that in there then

4 I'm not.

5 MR. LUBLINER: This is Mike

6 Lubliner.

7 MR. RAMIREZ: Michael, hold on a

8 second. Let me get Eric and then you.

9 Eric.

10 MR. LACEY: This is Eric from RECA. 

11 Again I'm trying to aim for a compromise here. 

12 Just out of curiosity, but those manufacturers

13 who make modular homes and manufactured homes,

14 are they already using Manual J and Manual S

15 for the modular homes? I assume so.

16 If you're in an IECC jurisdiction,

17 this requirement's been there for a little

18 while. I would assume you're at least

19 familiar with the process, if not already

20 using it in modular homes. Is that --

21 MR. SANTANA: If I may.

22 MR. LACEY: Go ahead.
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1 MR. SANTANA: Well, two items. One

2 is not every manufacturer of HUD construction

3 manufactures mods. That's one. Now the many

4 fabricators that do, in my experience, and I

5 can only speak from my experience that mods,

6 when they build mods they don't do a Manual S

7 and Manual J because they all run the

8 REScheck, except the ones in California that

9 do the energy software specific to California. 

10 And the duct design is always

11 handled by some of the suppliers, which in my

12 experience, this is the south so the plants

13 themselves, and I have no familiarity with

14 Manual J so I don't know what it says at all. 

15 And, you know, my opposition isn't

16 because I think the idea will be bad, I don't

17 know enough about it to say good or bad. And

18 I haven't heard any discussion from the

19 committee to that extent either.

20 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay.

21 MR. LUBLINER: Mike Lubliner.

22 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, yes. Let me get
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1 Michael.

2 MR. LACEY: Can we just finish the -

3 -

4 (Simultaneous speaking)

5 MS. HOFFMAN: Go ahead.

6 MR. RAMIREZ: Hold on.

7 (Simultaneous speaking)

8 MR. LACEY: Let me finish the

9 thought I started. I just asked a question to

10 kind of get a sense of where the manufacturers

11 are.

12 But what would happen if we removed

13 the requirement? As much as I want to put

14 Manual D in there, and I agree with you, Luby. 

15 But if we remove the Manual D reference from

16 the requirement here, but in our instructions

17 to DOE on the subject, since it's in the end

18 we want DOE to pick it up, some kind of tool,

19 to make it more specific to the manufactured

20 housing industry, but here what's at issue is

21 some alternatives.

22 Either you meet Manual S and Manual
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1 J, like you probably are for your modular

2 homes, but if you're not using that or if for

3 some other reason you don't want to use those

4 then DOE's going to approve a tool or develop

5 a tool, and in our term sheet maybe we give

6 DOE some instructions including we want DOE to

7 take a look at Manual D and whether this is

8 something that could be included or calculated

9 and, you know.

10 Anyway I'm hoping that maybe if you

11 cut Manual D out of the requirement and

12 include it in the directions to DOE in

13 developing the tool maybe we can get some kind

14 of compromise here.

15 MS. STARKEY: Yes, I think the

16 conversation started with Mark as we suggested

17 and endorse the gracious recommendation or

18 that DOE would develop a methodology that we

19 could use both in the factory and even in the

20 field.

21 So in developing the -- I don't

22 think the intent was to actually put specific
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1 language in beyond the need that we need to do

2 some sort of equipment sizing. So I endorse

3 the recommendation of taking out Manual D and

4 have DOE as it develops the methodology look

5 at Manual D in developing this tool.

6 MR. RAMIREZ: Let's get Michael now.

7 MR. LUBLINER: No, I'm okay with

8 taking Manual D out for consensus, but I do

9 want to make a few points regarding this. I

10 did bring Manual D up in our subcommittee,

11 Manny, as part of something that should be

12 considered.

13 Also, I really don't care if it's

14 Manual D or what. If DOE's going to look into

15 this, then I would like that Dave Tompos and

16 you to submit your duct sizing calculations to

17 DOE so they can look at them and see how they

18 compare to Manual D.

19 My experience for measuring air flow

20 in the field is that the flow rates of the

21 furnaces with the air conditioning coils on it

22 often do not meet the 400 cfm per ton, which
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1 is why I suggested that we have some design of

2 the duct work and confirm that we're meeting

3 the assumptions in the thermal modeling.

4 I think that I'm surprised that you

5 guys aren't aware of Manual J or Manual S, but

6 regardless of that these are ANSI approved

7 standards. And the National Technology

8 Transfer Act says that government, like DOE,

9 should be looking to national vetted ANSI

10 standards before developing its own standards. 

11 So I would say let's take it out for

12 consensus now, but I would hopefully encourage

13 DOE to look at the calculations currently

14 being used by the industry for sizing ducts

15 and go one step further. And that would be go

16 out into the field and measure a few with

17 calibrated equipment to determine if they're

18 in compliance.

19 And I would like to ask a question

20 of HUD. If we find when we measure them in

21 the field that they're not meeting the flow

22 rates, is there any sort of enforcement or
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1 follow-up that HUD would actually do to

2 rectify that? Because that's been one of the

3 major problems all along is issues that have

4 been identified don't get rectified.

5 And I'd like to see the duct design

6 thoroughly evaluated by DOE and I'm going to

7 withdraw it as part of this proposal.

8 MR. RAMIREZ: Thank you, Michael. 

9 And I actually -- sorry. Hold on one second. 

10 I've put a little note in here as part of the

11 ASRAC recommendations to consider Manual D for

12 methodology, specifically the ducts, but

13 anything else that we want in the

14 recommendations that would go to ASRAC, we'll

15 make sure that we'll discuss that at that

16 moment to see if it makes it on there.

17 But let me gauge the level of

18 consensus, or let's take a consensus vote here

19 with the amendment of striking Manual D or,

20 right. So that way it will read that heating

21 and cooling equipment shall be sized in

22 accordance with ACCA Manual S based on
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1 building loads calculated in accordance with

2 ACCA Manual J and by other DOE approved

3 heating and cooling methodologies.

4 Let's see a show of thumbs if you're

5 okay with that. Okay, so Mark is a no. And

6 I'm assuming it's the same --

7 MR. WEISS: Yes, same.

8 MR. RAMIREZ: Anyone else on line

9 with their thumbs down?

10 MR. SCHNEIDER: This is Peter. Can

11 you guys hear me?

12 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, Peter.

13 MS. HOFFMAN: First Peter, and then

14 Ishbel. Peter?

15 MR. SCHNEIDER: This is Peter. So,

16 you know, just anecdotally. And if we're not

17 doing testing as some of our weatherization

18 agencies have, but --

19 MR. RAMIREZ: Peter, can you hang on

20 one second? Peter, I don't mind discussing it

21 a little bit further here, but I first want to

22 see, what, was your thumb down or sideways? 
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1 Or up?

2 MR. SCHNEIDER: Sideways, because I

3 feel that Manual D is critical. I haven't

4 come across a manufactured homeowner in

5 Vermont or that I've spoken to outside of

6 Vermont that doesn't have comfort issues and

7 it's not associated with undersized equipment. 

8 It's associated with very poor duct design. 

9 And so I think that Manual D's a

10 critical piece that needs to be incorporated

11 or an equivalent. And I know that most of my

12 projects utilize D. It's designed for an

13 eighth grader to use.

14 So is Manual J. I don't think that

15 the manufactured housing industry should be

16 concerned about Manual D, Manual J, Manual S

17 or an equivalent because it's not rocket

18 science. This should be standard practice. 

19 And the reason we're having comfort

20 issues and poor air flow is because ultimately

21 these ducts are not being designed

22 appropriately. And the minute that you
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1 compare one of these duct designs in a

2 manufactured home, particularly in a multi3 section home, to what should have been done,

4 I think we'll find that there needs to be

5 better duct design.

6 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay, thank you,

7 Peter.

8 Ishbel?

9 MS. DICKENS: I just had a scrivener

10 question. I don't know why we have "and

11 following" in there. Those two words are not

12 in the original. I thought we said ACCA

13 Manual J or other DOE approved heating or

14 cooling calculation methodologies to make it

15 consistent working up to the original.

16 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay, so thank you,

17 Michael. Could you strike "following" as

18 well?

19 MS. DICKENS: And that includes or

20 after Manual D, that goes back in there.

21 MR. HAGERMAN: I think they probably

22 can't read the red. It may be difficult for
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1 them to see.

2 (Off microphone comments)

3 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. So that was

4 just, you know, a little bit more knitting. 

5 But let's just make sure that we're still all

6 on board. Let's see the thumbs again.

7 MR. LUTER: May I offer a comment

8 first, please? This is Robert Luter.

9 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, Rob?

10 MR. LUTER: My thought is as long as

11 you've got "other" in there, and I understand

12 the goal of those that have spoken, could this

13 be as simple as saying heating and cooling

14 equipment shall be sized in accordance with

15 building loads and calculated using DOE

16 approved heating and cooling methodologies,

17 period?

18 As long as other methodologies are

19 going to be acceptable, other would include

20 Manual S, Manual J and Manual D. It would

21 establish the intent, and at that point the

22 manufacturer could use the methodology, if it
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1 was DOE approved you're saying shouldn't it

2 work for them.

3 MR. RAMIREZ: Well, I think that,

4 and I guess this is just the outside observer

5 saying that the S and J, it seems like there's

6 no really issues with that. It was just more

7 of this editing piece at the moment.

8 I'd like to see the consensus vote

9 on this one, and if there's still issues then

10 we can look at additional edits. So let's go

11 ahead and let's see the show of thumbs up for

12 403.7.

13 Okay, Mark Weiss has his thumb down

14 and we know the reason for that.

15 MS. HOFFMAN: And Mark, let me just

16 clarify. Your reason is consultation with

17 HUD? Is that the reason?

18 MR. WEISS: Yes, I mean consultation

19 developed with HUD.

20 MS. HOFFMAN: With HUD, okay.

21 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay, and then anyone

22 else on line?
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1 MR. LUBLINER: Yes, this is Mike

2 Lubliner.

3 MS. HOFFMAN: Yes.

4 MR. LUBLINER: I had a question

5 regarding the consultation with HUD. Is Rick

6 Mendlen --

7 (Simultaneous speaking)

8 MR. RAMIREZ: Hold on a second,

9 Michael. Are you okay with this verbiage?

10 MR. LUBLINER: Yes, I am.

11 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay, let's deal with

12 that now. Okay.

13 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes. And is anyone

14 else thumb down? All right, so then it's a

15 one no vote. This 403.7 is okay.

16 And Michael, I'm going to ask --

17 (Simultaneous speaking)

18 MR. RAMIREZ: I'm going to ask if

19 you guys want to have the conversation on the

20 HUD component off line, because I think we may

21 have some other things that we want to get to

22 and that's not something that we're going to
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1 --

2 MR. LUBLINER: Very good.

3 MR. HAGERMAN: This is Joe Hagerman

4 again. We really need to move on to the

5 performance and prescriptive discussion, so if

6 you have additional comments why don't you

7 just --

8 MR. LUBLINER: I apologize.

9 MR. HAGERMAN: That's okay. If you

10 have additional comments why don't you just

11 email me and I'll put them on the record.

12 MR. WEISS: Just one. I'm not

13 trying to hold up the discussion, this is just

14 a technical issue that I feel needs to be

15 indicated in the record, that's all, for

16 future --

17 MR. HAGERMAN: About the in

18 consultation with the HUD.

19 MR. WEISS: Yes, and the

20 jurisdictions.

21 MR. HAGERMAN: And you have duly

22 noted it.
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1 MR. RAMIREZ: Cameron's doing a

2 great job over there. I'm sure he's got it

3 right.

4 MR. UNGAR: This is Lowell. Can we

5 just flag putting the sizing on the label as

6 one thing we also discussed but that should,

7 if we're having instructions to DOE in terms

8 of Manual D that should also be added, so

9 don't forget.

10 MR. HAGERMAN: We'll take note of

11 that.

12 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay. So that would

13 be on the label for the worst case scenario or

14 just sizing on the label?

15 MR. UNGAR: Doesn't matter as long

16 as we're just flagging it for a future --

17 MR. HAGERMAN: So let's move on to

18 the prescriptive performance Uo values that

19 Matthew had up on the screen before.

20 MS. HOFFMAN: Before we do, I just

21 want to make sure. Did Peter Schneider have

22 something he wanted to say? Just so I --
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1 okay.

2 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. I want to thank

3 Matthew for --

4 MR. SCHNEIDER: Is the floor open?

5 MR. RAMIREZ: It's open briefly. 

6 I'll give you a 30 second slider. Go ahead.

7 MR. SCHNEIDER: I don't even need 30

8 seconds. I just sent it to Joe Hagerman, but

9 I just wanted to know that the IRC calls out

10 that duct systems serving heating and cooling

11 and ventilation basically meets the provisions

12 of Manual D or other approved methods.

13 So there's a precedent out there and

14 there's a reason that these national standards

15 have been referenced, known at almost every

16 other standard including, you know, your

17 Energy Star and LEEDs and everything else is

18 because they're federal standards that have

19 been well developed and are common in the

20 industry.

21 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay, great. Thank

22 you, Peter. And I want to thank Matthew for
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1 expanding his duties today and doing some

2 editing for us. Thank you, Matthew.

3 All right, so I think you have the

4 floor on the discussion that already happened

5 yesterday, and he had some more and let's see

6 what he came up with.

7 You know what, I'm sorry. The one

8 thing I would ask is, and I don't really

9 understand this document and in all honesty I

10 probably don't understand even half of it. 

11 But there are some other folks that could use

12 a walkthrough on this, so if you could explain

13 what you did here.

14 MR. HAGERMAN: Let's just also ask

15 if everybody on the phone can hear Matthew.

16 MR. WALKER: This is Matthew. Test

17 one, two. Test.

18 MR. SCHNEIDER: Can hear you just

19 fine.

20 MR. HAGERMAN: Okay, great.

21 Matthew?

22 MR. WALKER: Okay. Yes, this is
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1 Matthew from Navigant. So yesterday we had

2 discovered that there were some differences

3 between the Uo values that PNNL had calculated

4 based on the Revision 2 scenario that was in

5 the LCC model.

6 And it was different from what

7 Emanuel had calculated in the strawman, eight

8 pager that he presented yesterday. So I spent

9 a little time looking at it, and it turns out

10 that there were a few component differences

11 between the two runs.

12 So what I have here on the table is

13 just a summary of what those component

14 differences is, and I think what we want to do

15 is just agree on one version versus the other,

16 and I think we want to probably move forward

17 with the part of the manual presented

18 yesterday. But just for transparency, I

19 wanted everyone to see what changed.

20 So Zones 1 through 2 had no

21 differences. Zone 3, 4 and 5 had a difference

22 in the wall insulation. The difference was
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1 either R-20 or R-21.

2 MR. RAMIREZ: And that's what

3 changed that number?

4 MR. WALKER: That's what changed

5 that number. So when Emanuel used R-21 in his

6 Uo calculation, R-21 is better insulation so

7 it saved more energy and it resulted in a

8 lower Uo value.

9 So all of Emanuel's Uo values were

10 smaller than the original Revision 2 Uo value. 

11 So similarly in the ceiling for Zone 3,

12 Emanuel had used an R-30 ceiling, but that had

13 not been specified in the Revision 2 run so

14 there was a difference there.

15 In this case, the R-30 ceiling would

16 save less energy which would make the Uo value

17 larger, but we had two competing factors here. 

18 So I have another table that shows what the

19 final Uo was.

20 And then to round out the table in

21 Zones 6, 7 and 8, there were some differences

22 in the ceiling and floor. Emanuel's runs had
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1 used some XPS as opposed to their traditional

2 fiberglass insulation. And so in those cases

3 -- go ahead, Emanuel.

4 MR. LEVY: This is Emanuel. I would

5 say I'm afraid those ones are actually

6 identical. The XPS was just a label we put on

7 it because it had to do with our cost

8 analysis.

9 When we used R-38 in conjunction

10 with walls that had XPS, we just put that

11 label on to indicate that the XPS was running

12 an extra couple inches because of the change

13 in the height of the wall. So it's actually

14 38. It's 38. All those are identical.

15 MR. HAGERMAN: So can you correct

16 that real quick, Matthew?

17 MR. WALKER: Sure.

18 MR. HAGERMAN: Just so everybody

19 will know, on the phone can see. So, Emanuel,

20 thanks for that clarification.

21 MR. WALKER: So Emanuel's costs used

22 the XPS version. However, he's saying that
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1 the energy used is just equivalent to the

2 other table. So it shouldn't affect the Uo is

3 what he's saying.

4 MR. UNGAR: And just so we

5 understand to be clear that you're saying that

6 the XPS notation means that because of the

7 wall insulation there's an additional cost

8 that is really associated with the choice of

9 wall insulation rather than the choice of

10 floor?

11 MR. LEVY: That's right. It's only

12 when that ceiling is used in conjunction with

13 a wall like the 20+5, the 21HD+5 where you

14 have a little bit more XPS that the wall has

15 been a little steeper, we added that cost into

16 the cost of accomplishing the R-38.

17 So it doesn't change the R-value or

18 the U-value of the roof, it just adds a little

19 bit to the cost only when that is in

20 combination with a wall that has it installed

21 on it.

22 MR. UNGAR: The floor, you mean, not
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1 roof.

2 MR. LEVY: Roof and/or floors. I

3 mean it --

4 MR. UNGAR: Okay.

5 MR. LEVY: With ASRAC.

6 MR. WALKER: Okay, well, thanks for

7 helping me with that, Emanuel. I'm glad you

8 were able to clarify this, and we'll get it

9 all situated correctly in all the different

10 models.

11 MR. HAGERMAN: So I guess, really,

12 the only thing that's changed, so even though

13 we're showing that in Zones 6A, 6B, 7 and 8,

14 the 38, 30, those should be blank, right,

15 because there is no change, right? Because

16 these are only the changes.

17 MR. WALKER: Correct.

18 MR. HAGERMAN: Right. So really the

19 only thing that changed is the requirements in

20 Zone 3. Yes, those zones are highlighted

21 there.

22 In our determination it looks like
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1 Emanuel's is a little bit more conservative in

2 terms of being energy efficient, so that's why

3 my recommendation is let's just stick with his

4 use of R-values that are highlighted on Page

5 5 of the packet, and they should be up on the

6 screen right now.

7 MR. LACEY: Emanuel, this is Eric. 

8 I just had a clarifying question for you. 

9 When you're specifying the XPS, does that mean

10 you're putting on that continuous insulation

11 rather than just the cavity-only R-38?

12 MR. LEVY: Hi Eric. Say that one

13 more time, I didn't hear you.

14 MR. LACEY: I hate to raise more

15 questions, but the distinction between the R16 38 and the R-38 XPS, I assume the R-38 is a

17 blown in, cavity-only insulation. The XPS is

18 a sheeting or continuous insulation. Is that

19 right?

20 MR. LEVY: When we're talking about

21 the ceiling insulation, there's no XPS in the

22 ceiling. The XPS was just a label to us to
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1 remind ourselves that the cost of the ceiling,

2 of accomplishing that higher ceiling included

3 the cost of adding a little more foam on the

4 walls. So the ceiling in both cases, 30 or

5 38, all the ceilings are blown fiberglass

6 insulation.

7 MR. HAGERMAN: Okay, that explains

8 it.

9 MR. LEVY: Yes.

10 MR. HAGERMAN: And Emanuel, thanks

11 for that clarification because it was a little

12 confusing since XPS is an acronym for a

13 certain type of insulation. So we understand

14 what you did now, so we appreciate that.

15 But so, you know, now that you see

16 these --

17 MR. EZZO: This is Mark Ezzo.

18 MR. HAGERMAN: Go ahead, Mark.

19 MR. EZZO: Yes, thanks, Joe. Does

20 that same hold true, Emanuel, for the floor,

21 where on the floor it shows 30 XPS and 38 XPS?

22 MR. LEVY: That's right.
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1 MR. EZZO: Okay.

2 MR. LEVY: Yes.

3 MR. EZZO: Thank you.

4 MR. LUBLINER: This is Mike

5 Lubliner.

6 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, Michael.

7 MR. LUBLINER: Yes, I just want to

8 thank Emanuel for clarifying that statement. 

9 I wasn't clear on that in the documentation on

10 this cost stuff.

11 And so if there's a document that

12 has all these details, at some point it would

13 be real useful to get. And I think it is

14 important that appropriated costs, if we're

15 going to do a measure by measure assessment

16 that we be very clear as to what costs are

17 affecting other costs. Thank you.

18 MR. HAGERMAN: I should say too --

19 this is Joe Hagerman. Just so there's no

20 concern here, but I talked to GC earlier and

21 as we're, after the group, assuming the group

22 comes up with a term sheet, which I think
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1 we're pretty close to voting on this use of O2 values right now, at least that's what I'm

3 trying to get us to.

4 If we have questions on the

5 information that you provided, there's no

6 problem with us reaching out to you and asking

7 questions of the materials, right? 

8 Particularly, you know, there's a

9 lot of stuff in the IECC provisions that we

10 walked through that are very technical, so we

11 can reach out to you guys and ask questions

12 and receive answers as we go from the term

13 sheet.

14 So, you know, again I'm sure some of

15 the information you have provided has been

16 really great information, but after we leave

17 this and start writing things and taking the

18 term sheet, seeing what we come up with on it,

19 I'm sure we'll have questions and we'll get

20 back to you today.

21 And of course you'll have plenty of

22 time to comment on the final. But now I'd
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1 like to suggest just to take a quick vote on

2 this and see if these use of O-values, where

3 we are. Take a temperature of that.

4 MR. RAMIREZ: Let's see a show of

5 thumbs with your acceptability of these Uo6 values. Let's see the thumbs.

7 MR. HAGERMAN: Referring to which? 

8 The --

9 MR. TOMPOS: I'm looking at the

10 screen right now. Are we saying we're doing

11 a different U-value for double and single? Is

12 that what we have, correct, up there?

13 MS. STARKEY: No.

14 MR. TOMPOS: Or are we averaging

15 those or --

16 MR. HAGERMAN: That's a great

17 question.

18 MR. UNGAR: Can I make a suggestion? 

19 I don't think we're agreeing on standard

20 because we're not agreeing on a standard for

21 this number of regions. I think what we're

22 saying is the standard will be based on these
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1 Uo values and we've yet to determine, you

2 know, what regions and what types of housing

3 may be in that standard. But whatever we do

4 will then merge these in order to come up with

5 the Uo values in the final standard.

6 MR. HAGERMAN: So, you know, I think

7 of it like this. We're making sausage here,

8 right, so we're slowly picking all the

9 ingredients that go in the sausage, right. 

10 And of course as we put it through

11 the grinder and spit out our perfectly good

12 sausage, it's going to look like some of this

13 data up here but it's going to be filtered

14 through the final climate zone discussion,

15 through a followup discussion after we vote on

16 this on if we're doing single Uo values or

17 having two different use of O-values for

18 single and doubles.

19 It's just, you know, we need to

20 start making some decisions to then, you know,

21 can narrow everything that we have to

22 consider, right?
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1 MS. HOFFMAN: Lois?

2 MS. STARKEY: So what you're saying,

3 Joe, is that we are, your ask is for the group

4 to agree that this data is the best data, the

5 best ingredients to go in the sausage.

6 MR. HAGERMAN: That's exactly right. 

7 Thank you. And I appreciate you using my bad

8 analogy.

9 MR. RAMIREZ: Mark?

10 MR. WEISS: I don't know how you

11 separate that determination from the cost

12 issue. I mean if someone wants to talk about

13 how you do that I'm certainly willing to

14 listen.

15 What are we voting on? I mean

16 you're voting on a number, on a value, but

17 that is tied to a cost impact. So I mean can

18 you clarify better what we're doing here from

19 that perspective?

20 MR. HAGERMAN: Yes. All the use of

21 O-values here were generated off the ten-year

22 residual cost information that was provided,
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1 right? So these are all based on cost data

2 that's provided.

3 MR. WALKER: Would you like to see

4 that now?

5 MR. HAGERMAN: Yes, we can pull that

6 up. All these are positive or black, where we

7 say, you know, they're not showing up as

8 negatives in all the climates there except for

9 Miami. And where it is negative, in Miami

10 it's negative by $51. And this is a ten-year

11 with the residual.

12 So all the use of O-values are

13 predicated on, you know, that analysis that

14 has cost and construction and components all

15 factored in. And just to remind everybody,

16 they're all black except for Miami which is

17 negative.

18 I don't know how many units your

19 industry ships to Miami, but in all the

20 distillation of IECC climate zones to, you

21 know, less number of climate zones, it seems

22 like Miami, that 1A climate zone always gets
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1 thrown out. So just a courtesy heads-up

2 that's what we routinely see.

3 So I wouldn't, I personally wouldn't

4 think that you'd make your vote on Miami

5 unless of course you're a manufacturer of

6 homes in Miami. But just something for you to

7 consider.

8 MR. UNGAR: And to clarify, I mean

9 we may or may not accept this analysis and we

10 haven't agreed that a ten-year life cycle

11 analysis with the residual and these seven

12 assumptions is the way to do it.

13 But it's we come up with a set of

14 numbers for which other than Miami it does

15 come up positive on this particular cost

16 effectiveness metric, but in the end we're

17 saying can we accept these numbers.

18 MR. LUBLINER: This is Mike

19 Lubliner.

20 MR. RAMIREZ: Go ahead, Michael.

21 MR. LUBLINER: Yes, I think on

22 Miami, I think that it's going to be positive
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1 when you take into account any type of

2 heating, air conditioning downsizing, so I

3 wouldn't be too concerned.

4 Also we went ahead and modeled duct

5 work in the floor, and quite typically homes

6 get shipped to Miami and have their duct work

7 in the attic as I understand which would be

8 another conservatism. So I think we're good

9 here.

10 The one point I wanted to make

11 because I was kind of coming off the wheel

12 yesterday regarding the climate map. I want

13 to clarify what the IECC says.

14 Here you see that we have a good Uo. 

15 I'm very happy with the Uo here that's shown

16 for a single and double for, say, Salem,

17 Oregon, which is 4C.

18 If you note in the standard, 4C is

19 treated like, is a marine 4 climate and it's

20 treated as a 5 climate zone. That's why it's

21 got the same Uo value here as the 5's and it

22 changes when you get to 4B and 4A.
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1 So I'm totally comfortable with

2 this, but what I wasn't comfortable with

3 yesterday and want to clarify was the map that

4 was provided which didn't make that

5 distinction.

6 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, and that's still

7 up in the air right now and I think we're

8 going to have a little bit more discussion on

9 that later. But no decision on the map or the

10 zone should be made today.

11 MR. LUBLINER: Yes, very good. I

12 just wanted to clarify. I'm good with this,

13 but I wasn't good with supplying the map to

14 it.

15 MR. RAMIREZ: Got you.

16 MR. UNGAR: So what we're saying

17 here is regardless of how we do a final map,

18 we will base it on 4C being a 10.59 Uo, which

19 will be -- okay.

20 MR. RAMIREZ: All right, so let's

21 see a show of thumbs if you're okay with these

22 ingredients. Anyone online with your thumbs
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1 down?

2 All right, so Mark, do you want to

3 state why?

4 MR. WEISS: Given the concerns I

5 raised last time regarding the cost elements,

6 I think that to maintain consistencies that

7 incorporates those cost elements I have to

8 maintain the no vote from last time.

9 MR. RAMIREZ: Got you. 

10 MR. HAGERMAN: Do you want to

11 comment?

12 MR. TOMPOS: I think once we get

13 below 0.060, I think we're going to run into

14 some problems with space in smaller homes. 

15 So, you know, especially the 0.051, I think it

16 would be real difficult to meet some of those

17 requirements.

18 MR. HAGERMAN: Joe Hagerman. I

19 think that's a valid concern. When we looked

20 yesterday about how many units were shipped in

21 Climate Zones 7 and 8, I calculated background

22 a little. Worst case is four to five percent.
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1 MR. TOMPOS: No, I know. And that's

2 why I'm sideways and not down.

3 MR. HAGERMAN: Right, so okay. So I

4 think, you know, obviously we have to have,

5 continue a further discussion of how we

6 distill these eight climate zones into

7 something more manageable. And, you know, my

8 personal, just --

9 MR. SCHNEIDER: This is Peter.

10 MR. HAGERMAN: Hold on. My personal

11 gut reaction is Miami sort of disappears and

12 Climate Zone 7 and 8 has to be dealt with. 

13 And I appreciate anything below a 0.06 is

14 difficult, right? .059, you're kind of on the

15 edge there but it's doable, right?

16 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay, I just want to

17 make it clear that there is a no vote and the

18 group didn't reach consensus on this. I don't

19 want to cut off conversation, but I also don't

20 want that to get lost.

21 Lois, you're okay? Okay. Let's get

22 Mark and then Peter. Mark?
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1 MR. WEISS: Just wanted to briefly,

2 since David stated that so well I'd like to

3 glom on to his comments as well.

4 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay.

5 (Simultaneous speaking)

6 MR. HAGERMAN: I'm associating

7 myself with those remarks.

8 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. Peter?

9 MR. SCHNEIDER: I don't know if I

10 missed us revisiting this, but of course Uo

11 values are based on a Grade 1 insulation

12 installation. And so I'm just referencing

13 Table R402.411 and, you know, the inner

14 barrier insulation installation requirements

15 in 2015.

16 And I'm just wondering if this is

17 the time to revisit that. You know, clearly,

18 our manufacturers are not achieving a Grade 1

19 installation and these Uo values are based on

20 that. And so, you know, I sort of have a

21 sideways thumb because I just don't think that

22 these Uos actually reflect what's actually
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1 being delivered to our customers.

2 MR. RAMIREZ: Peter, I think that

3 that was, and all the experts in the room

4 here, I think we covered that before when we

5 were talking about that insulation has to be

6 installed according to the specifications of

7 the manufacturer.

8 MR. HAGERMAN: This is Joe Hagerman. 

9 Also, I think we did a sensitivity analysis

10 between Grade 1 and 2 that you can go back to

11 and that the energy penalty was not, I'm going

12 to say not significant. It was not huge. 

13 That the larger determining factor was the air

14 envelope leakage, right, which we agreed was,

15 I think, 5, right?

16 MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, I would defer

17 to the experts in the room who spend time in

18 manufactured housing facilities, but I don't

19 think we're even talking about Grade 2 in our

20 facilities. We're talking about Grade 3. And

21 when I do the modeling on my end between Grade

22 3 and Grade 1 it's quite significant in
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1 regards to the overall U value.

2 And if I were to utilize Grade 3

3 overall effective R-values, you know, in my

4 assemblies when modeling homes, I wouldn't

5 have a manufactured home on a dealer lot in

6 the state that would meet the overall U-value

7 currently required by HUD, which would be the

8 actual, you know, graded assembly on site.

9 So I just, you know, again I just

10 wanted to bring it up. I ultimately don't

11 feel that these Uo values accurately reflect

12 what we're going to be seeing if we don't

13 require the same level of oversight and

14 quality assurance that the IECC 2015 requires

15 with Table R402.411.

16 MR. LUBLINER: This is Mike

17 Lubliner.

18 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, Michael.

19 MR. LUBLINER: I'd like to support

20 what Peter said, though I think we need to

21 kind of go forward. So perhaps what we could

22 do today, Joe, if you're up to this, is at
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1 some point do a sensitivity study that looks

2 at what the difference to the Uo is if you're

3 going ahead and grading it at 3, 2 or 1.

4 I think this is going to be a

5 critical issue for our enforcement work for

6 spin off. I too have been in factories, and

7 I would encourage you, Joe, or others that are

8 familiar with grading to evaluate randomly

9 what's out there and give it a grade.

10 But I think for right now we've got

11 to stay focused on the Uo. So as long as

12 there's some commitment to doing it in a

13 parametric analysis and what's the impact of

14 Uo based on the grading of insulation, I think

15 that will be a useful exercise to get towards

16 what Peter and my concern is and to move

17 forward with these U --

18 MR. HAGERMAN: Yes, this is Joe

19 Hagerman trying to move forward here. David

20 has his hand up so ask him what his question

21 is or comment. But, you know, Peter, you

22 bring up some good comments but, you know, if
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1 a manufacturer is going to use Grade 3

2 insulation or, I'm sorry, the installation of

3 insulation with a Grade 3, it's going to be

4 hard for them to, you know, they're going to

5 have to do much more to meet these Uo values,

6 right? So that would not be a good move,

7 right?

8 MR. LUBLINER: This is Mike again. 

9 Yes, I think this would be a discussion for

10 the enforcement group.

11 MR. HAGERMAN: Right.

12 MR. LUBLINER: But I would encourage

13 that parametric analysis to see what the

14 implication is for Uo as Peter's noted. Thank

15 you.

16 MR. HAGERMAN: David, did you have a

17 comment?

18 MR. TOMPOS: I just wanted somebody

19 to remind me where in the IECC it requires

20 Grade 1 insulation? Is there a section number

21 for that?

22 MR. LACEY: It's not specifically
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1 called out but --

2 MR. TOMPOS: So it does not require

3 --

4 MR. RAMIREZ: It's just saying it

5 has to be installed.

6 MR. TOMPOS: Correct. So I don't

7 know why we're talking about grades.

8 MR. HAGERMAN: Yes, in our previous

9 we've talked about grades previously but

10 nothing we've voted on said we had to have a

11 Grade 1. So --

12 MR. TOMPOS: Okay, so we can move

13 on?

14 MR. HAGERMAN: -- you are correct.

15 MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, but I would

16 note that if you want to make a simple

17 definition of what's defined in that table

18 that is Grade 1 that they're defining. So

19 there's no mistake about it. If you look at

20 the requirements for Grade 1 installation

21 based on those guidelines then you're aligned

22 with what's in Table 402. So, you know, it's
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1 just schematics. Either we're referencing

2 this table or we're referencing Grade 1. I

3 see it as the same requirements.

4 MR. TOMPOS: Didn't we go through

5 this table and agree with what the language

6 should read?

7 MR. HAGERMAN: Right. I think we

8 can move on, guys. So Peter, you've made your

9 comments. It's noted.

10 MR. ROY: So moving on, I have just

11 two questions for Emanuel. Emanuel, your

12 costing, is that based on the type of, the

13 insulation costs? Is that based on the type

14 of labor that would achieve this level of

15 performance which, I guess, is Grade 1? I'm

16 assuming that it is internally consistent. 

17 Your costing is consistent with the

18 performance, I'm assuming.

19 MR. LEVY: Right. That's right. 

20 It's a very difficult shade that you're

21 painting, Rob, but what you're saying is

22 correct.
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1 MR. HAGERMAN: Let's just keep in

2 mind too, you can achieve a use of O in this

3 chart by installing insulation per Grade 3. 

4 You just have to put more in it, right. So

5 again it's not a wise move for a manufacturer. 

6 So I don't know. But your comments are noted.

7 MR. LUBLINER: Yes, this is Mike

8 Lubliner. I think it's really important that

9 we got on the record that these costs from

10 Levy here assume a Grade 1. I think that's

11 all we really need right now.

12 I guess I have a question for HUD. 

13 It would be, if you find that these homes do

14 not meet the Grade 1 and they've assumed it in

15 their Uo calculation, is there any

16 enforcement?

17 Is there a subpart I or is this just

18 going to be the status quo where this stuff

19 continues to happen the way we see it in the

20 factory now? Maybe we can take that into the

21 enforcement discussion later on.

22 MS. HOFFMAN: I think you're right. 
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1 It does deal with something other than what

2 we're dealing with right at this moment.

3 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay, so let's do

4 this. Let's go ahead and take a break here. 

5 Let's do ten minutes. And when we come back

6 I want to look at performance pass and see if

7 we can get some agreement on that.

8 MR. LEVY: Javier?

9 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes.

10 MR. LEVY: Do you have the map?

11 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, I do. Thank you.

12 MR. LEVY: Okay.

13 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay, let's do ten

14 minutes.

15 (Whereupon, the above-entitled

16 matter went off the record at 10:33 a.m. and

17 resumed at 10:44 a.m.)

18 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay, we're back on

19 the clock. And we're, Javier, do you want to

20 continue?

21 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, I was thinking

22 that we could discuss the performance pass,
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1 prescriptive, I'm sorry, compliance pass, yes,

2 and the prescriptive numbers here and see what

3 we could do to try and get approval on these

4 things.

5 And we might also have to have some

6 discussion on the Uo values. Are we doing it

7 for one number for everything, or one for

8 single and one for double or multiple

9 sections?

10 So let's start off with the

11 prescriptive numbers that are up here. And

12 these are the numbers that Emmanuel had

13 provided to us. Is there any considerable

14 heartburn, as in considerable meaning we can

15 probably get away with a little a little bit

16 of heartburn, right? But overall, how these

17 numbers look to folks.

18 MALE PARTICIPANT: Can you say it

19 again?

20 MR. LACEY: Yes, my only reservation

21 would be the having a lower SHGC, you know, a

22 25 SHGC and IECC's claim its own one through
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1 three like we discussed yesterday. We don't

2 have to talk more about it, but that's my only

3 reservation.

4 MR. HAGERMAN: And you should

5 probably remind everybody once you factor in

6 the cost for the solar heating coefficients as

7 you're discussing on how it effects the ten

8 year with the residual and the IECC climate

9 Zones 2, 3, and 4. You should probably remind

10 everybody that there's still --

11 MR. LACEY: Yes, if they didn't have

12 that much of an impact, even when you just

13 looked at the cost side of the equation

14 without considering the energy savings. So I

15 just wanted to remind folks. I don't want

16 SHGC to get lost in the shuffle here when

17 we're talking just about Uo.

18 And I guess on a related note, while

19 we're talking about the prescriptive on the

20 Uo, I would hope we would include a notation

21 in there that if you go down that pathway,

22 that you also meet the solar heat gain
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1 coefficient requirements.

2 Currently in that code, there is not

3 an SHGC requirement. I think it's reasonable

4 to require the same SHGC requirement from one

5 compliance option to the other.

6 MR. HAGERMAN: The way you talk

7 about modifying those numbers right now, I

8 mean, looking at this chart right here, what

9 would be put in, which zones would you change

10 for the SHGC numbers and what would be --

11 MR. LACEY: IECC Zones 1, 2, and 3. 

12 That would make it consistent with the IECC.

13 MR. HAGERMAN: So Joe Hagerman, DOE.

14 So what Eric is asking for is amendment of

15 this table, and I would assume the double

16 section table, too. In IECC Zones 1, 2, and

17 3, under the glazing column that says solar

18 heat gain coefficient, that it would read

19 instead of 0.33 it would be 0.25 for Zone 1,

20 0.25 in Zone 2 and 0.25 in Zone 3.

21 And just a reminder, that was still

22 in the life cycle analysis, I'm sorry, in the
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1 ten year payback with the residual analysis,

2 if you factored in just the costs and no

3 interview segments from that, it was still in

4 the black.

5 And also to remind everybody that

6 PNNL analysis did the worst case scenario, so

7 it did not directly, so solar heat gain

8 coefficient didn't necessarily benefit the

9 energy simulations because they put all the

10 glazing equally across all sizes, the size of

11 the house which if you just, you know, if you

12 think about your products that you ship, that

13 may not be the case. Glazing may be oriented

14 east and west, which actually would be the

15 worst case.

16 MS. HOFFMAN: If these, the quick

17 question, I'm Eileen Hoffman. If the 0.25 is

18 put in those boxes, does it change the value?

19 MR. LACEY: It doesn't change the Uo

20 value because that's not affected by it. But

21 it would change the cooling energy use, the

22 energy costs basically for the home.
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1 MR. LUBLINER: This is Mike

2 Lubliner.

3 MR. LACEY: Yes, Michael.

4 MR. LUBLINER: Yes, I totally

5 support wherever we've gone. This is

6 consistent with the KISS Luby direction. I

7 think that because we have encountered a

8 savings towards downtime in air conditioning,

9 which could be considerable in the hotter

10 climates, the first cost savings associated

11 with the smaller air conditioning, that that

12 in and of itself will continue to keep this in

13 the black, make it even more into the black.

14 Thank you.

15 MR. EZZO: This is Mark Ezzo. While

16 we're doing the heat gain coefficient numbers,

17 can we also look at 4, 5, 6, 7, and 8 and get

18 rid of the 0.33 for those because in those

19 zones, the IECC doesn't require anything that

20 stringent.

21 So for instance, IECC says for Zone

22 4 you can have a 0.40 heat gain coefficient.
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1 And for 5, 6, 7, and 8, there's no

2 requirement. So I would ask that if we're

3 going to go and put 0.25 for 1, 2, and 3 that

4 aligns with the IECC, that we would do

5 likewise for 4, 5, 6, 7, and 8.

6 MR. LUBLINER: Mike Lubliner. I

7 totally support that, as well. I think that

8 in effect, you'll probably accuse one of these

9 vinyl frames as low-E, yet better than 0.4 in

10 those areas.

11 But I don't think you should be

12 required to. There should be flexibility. I

13 would defer to Eric on that, though. But I

14 support what Mark said.

15 MR. LACEY: Yes, I think those

16 numbers are in there. But based on the

17 products that were available and that were

18 being used, and all of them were 33 and

19 better. And so like Luby said, I think you'll

20 probably end up with a window that meets or

21 exceeds that value anyway.

22 You know, you could remove the
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1 requirement from climate Zones 5 through 8,

2 and I wouldn't have a problem with that. 

3 Climate Zone 4 is actually a 0.40 in the IECC.

4 It has been. So yes, you would have a 0.25 in

5 climate Zones 1, 2, and 3, and then a 0.40 in

6 climate Zone 4 if you wanted to be really

7 technical.

8 MR. LUTER: This is Rob Luter. I

9 would also support aligning the solar heat

10 gains in the northern zones with the ICC. But

11 I will say that the low-E that is typically

12 used to achieve the U values up there brings

13 along the solar heat gain performance for the

14 ride.

15 So in reality, you're going to have

16 the lower solar heat gains up there whether

17 it's required or not.

18 MR. HAGERMAN: So this is Joe

19 Hagerman. It sounds like there's a lot of

20 people rallying behind this proposal. Could

21 maybe Eric or Mark Ezzo, could you read

22 through the values again just so we're clear
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1 what the proposal is?

2 MR. LACEY: Yes. I mean, I can walk

3 through it. So going in order, climate Zone

4 1 SHGC is 0.25. Climate Zone 2, 0.25. 

5 Climate Zone 3, 0.25. Climate Zone 4, 0.40.

6 And climate Zone 5, n/r, you know, no

7 requirement. Climate Zone 6, no requirement.

8 Climate Zones 7 and 8, no requirement. Is

9 that clear?

10 MR. EZZO: That's correct. This is

11 Mark.

12 MR. ROY: Clarifying question. What

13 about Marines, is there a distinction there?

14 MR. LACEY: No. The Marines get

15 lumped according to the table here. So

16 climate Zone Marine 4 would be technically at

17 kind of a climate Zone 5, so it would not be

18 an SHGC requirement. Is that your

19 understanding, Luby, that Marine 4 would not

20 have an SHGC requirement?

21 MR. LUBLINER: Yes. I don't know

22 that you would need one there. Certainly
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1 Marines -- I'll defer to the manufacturers.

2 MR. RAMIREZ: So let's take away the

3 single versus double.

4 MR. HAGERMAN: There's somebody on

5 the phone that's making a lot of static. I

6 don't know if anybody --

7 FEMALE PARTICIPANT: Michael Wade.

8 MR. HAGERMAN: Michael Wade, you're

9 making a lot of static.

10 MALE PARTICIPANT: Can you mute for

11 us?

12 MR. WADE: I'll mute it.

13 MR. HAGERMAN: Okay, thank you.

14 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay, so taking away

15 the issue of single versus double section, we

16 can handle that one separate.

17 MR. LACEY: Okay, that's fine. I'm

18 going to pose the same thing for both.

19 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, no, but yes. And

20 these numbers would be for single or double.

21 MR. LACEY: Okay.

22 MR. RAMIREZ: I'm just talking about
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1 the Uo values.

2 MR. LACEY: Oh yes, this is separate

3 from the Uo values.

4 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes. Okay, so just

5 the chart taking away the single section or

6 double section piece, are these the numbers

7 for a prescriptive path?

8 MR. LACEY: We should probably

9 scroll up and let everybody see the double

10 section numbers just so they can remind

11 themselves. And so again, the solar heat gain

12 coefficient column here would be the same as

13 what's been proposed, the 0.25, 0.40 and no

14 requirement?

15 MR. UNGAR: All the prescriptive

16 numbers are the same for single and double

17 section, aren't they?

18 MS. HOFFMAN: Yes.

19 MR. UNGAR: Yes, and so --

20 (Simultaneous speaking)

21 MR. RAMIREZ: So these numbers we

22 discuss out windows with transfer, double as
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1 well.

2 MR. HAGERMAN: Just remind

3 everybody.

4 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. Yes, so let's

5 see a show of thumbs if we're okay with these

6 numbers.

7 MR. HAGERMAN: With the

8 modifications with the solar heat gain

9 coefficients of course.

10 MR. RAMIREZ: Thank you. Anyone on

11 line with their thumbs down?

12 MR. HAGERMAN: And can you unmute

13 Michael Wade just in case he has a problem?

14 MR. RAMIREZ: Anyone on the line

15 with your thumbs down?

16 MR. EZZO: This is Mark. My thumb's

17 up, but just want to clarify that those XPS in

18 parentheses numbers go away.

19 MR. HAGERMAN: Thank you, Mark. 

20 Absolutely.

21 MR. EZZO: Just to be clear.

22 MR. HAGERMAN: Yes, that XPS is just
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1 a footnote that we will remove.

2 MS. HOFFMAN: And next time, we'll

3 have this revised.

4 MR. HAGERMAN: Yes. We'll of

5 course, before the next meeting we're going to

6 revise this and start cobbling together a

7 terms sheet, right, which you will see all

8 this reflected.

9 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay.

10 MR. LUBLINER: This is Mike

11 Lubliner.

12 MR. RAMIREZ: Michael, is it

13 regarding your thumb, your vote?

14 MR. LUBLINER: No, it's a comment on

15 Mark's comment.

16 MS. HOFFMAN: Let's wait then.

17 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, so I just wanted

18 to note that there was one no vote. Mark, is

19 it costing issues?

20 MR. WEISS: Again, it's derivative

21 of my prior.

22 MR. RAMIREZ: Got you, okay. Noted. 
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1 So this was approved by consensus.

2 MR. HAGERMAN: Unless, are there any

3 no votes on the phone?

4 MS. HOFFMAN: No.

5 MR. HAGERMAN: Okay, thank you. Now

6 Mike Lubliner, you had a comment about

7 something?

8 MR. LUBLINER: Yes, just a request.

9 The XPS thing is still, I still want to make

10 sure we're clear on it, I was told it was

11 getting rid of it like Mark Ezzo said. But

12 I'm just wondering, we talked before about the

13 cost data reflectiveness. Are we also going

14 to be, if we do any analysis, reducing the

15 cost data so it's not reflective of this XPS?

16 MR. LEVY: This is Emmanuel. That

17 is correct, Michael.

18 MR. LUBLINER: Thanks, Emmanuel.

19 MR. UNGAR: I have one more

20 clarification on this. I assume, I'm guessing

21 we want to end up with these exact regions

22 that are going to have to then do prescriptive
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1 packages that will be derived from these.

2 But it won't be as obvious how to

3 compromise as it is in a Uo where you can just

4 average the number if you're not going to do

5 something else to come up with packages that

6 are comparable to these for whatever regions

7 we end up using.

8 MR. HAGERMAN: Absolutely. So we're

9 going to have to get in the region discussion

10 next, which we had some maps drawn up. But

11 let me just also remind you that there's some

12 natural divisions occurring here.

13 And I think they're consistent,

14 right, the Uo values naturally divide off in

15 groupings of climate Zone one and two, three

16 and four, five and six. And I think the

17 prescriptive requirements are the same too

18 just naturally, right?

19 So not only the Uo values are the

20 same, but also the prescriptive packages as

21 agreed are the same. So just keep that in

22 mind. Right, so hopefully, knock on wood, I'm
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1 hoping that it's, nothing's been easy here,

2 but I'm hoping that might be a little bit

3 easier for us.

4 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay, now Matthew, can

5 I shrink that just a little bit so I can see

6 both the single and double? Okay, so maybe

7 just a little bit bigger.

8 So the next one I want to talk about

9 is are we having a single U value number for,

10 a single section for single and double, or are

11 we having separate ones for single and

12 multiple?

13 MR. HAGERMAN: So the question is

14 are we having one table with one Uo value, or

15 are we having two tables, one Uo value table

16 for single sections and one Uo value for

17 double sections.

18 And I would just like to call

19 everybody's attention to, you know, in IECC

20 climate Zone 2 for example, yes, so there's a

21 big difference here between, well not big

22 difference, but you know, the single sections
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1 in my professional opinion are going to be a

2 little more difficult, right, because they

3 have a more aggressive Uo value.

4 No, I'm sorry, they're going to be,

5 right now their Uo value is a little bit more

6 lenient than the double wide sections, right,

7 so it's going to be a little bit easier for

8 them to meet.

9 If we come up with a composite Uo

10 value to represent both singles and doubles,

11 I think we're going to be disadvantaging the

12 single sections, making them a little bit more

13 difficult to read the efficiency levels. That

14 is if we average the numbers, right?

15 So just keep that in mind. You

16 know, I would like to hear from the

17 manufacturers. I don't think the

18 manufacturers would have a hard time with

19 dealing with two different tables of Uo

20 values. But you all should comment.

21 MR. SANTANA: This is Manny with

22 Cavco. You know, when you brought this up
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1 yesterday, I didn't respond because I was

2 trying to work through what impact it would

3 have.

4 And you know, having had a day to

5 think about it, I don't know that it's going

6 to be a detriment having different values for

7 singles and the double one. I don't think

8 it's going to be a problem.

9 You know, it's going to be a bigger

10 chart in the code, but I don't see how it's

11 going to have any practical application,

12 "negative" application.

13 MR. HAGERMAN: Yes, so I appreciate

14 that, Manny.

15 MR. KESSLER: This is Bert, Palm

16 Harbor. I think I mentioned that same thing

17 yesterday. I don't know how you would control

18 or be able to control the difference except

19 perhaps the blown insulation thickness in the

20 roof. So I don't see where that's going to do

21 us any good.

22 MR. WADE: This is Michael Wade,
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1 Cavalier Homes. I think we could work with

2 it.

3 MR. RAMIREZ: Work with two?

4 MR. HAGERMAN: I just, so I'm really

5 sensitive to Mark Weiss' comments about the

6 affordability. If we move, if we have to take

7 an averaging of the numbers as an example,

8 right, I think we disenfranchised the single

9 sections and we make them actually a little

10 bit less affordable, to be honest with you.

11 So that's why I think having two

12 tables helps us deal with the affordability

13 issue. But go ahead.

14 MR. UNGAR: This is Lowell. I have

15 a question for Bert. The different Uo values

16 used exactly the same prescriptive

17 requirements. If I understand this, if you

18 want to do the same thing in a single wide as

19 in a double wide, you end up with different Uo

20 values.

21 And so this would allow, if you have

22 the separate Uo values, you have the same
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1 blown insulation in the roof, whereas if you

2 have the same Uo requirement for single wide

3 and double wide, you would then have to do

4 something different if you wanted to meet

5 exactly the standard, unless you wanted of

6 course to go above the standard for the single

7 wides. And Bert, do you have some other

8 understanding of that?

9 MR. LUBLINER: That's my

10 understanding, Mike Lubliner.

11 MR. LEVY: This is Emmanuel. I

12 would like to interject a point here. If you

13 simply took the average, which is what the

14 other option is, the variation from single or

15 multi to the average is very small. It's kind

16 of in the noise.

17 It's less than a change in an

18 insulation value. And I think if you look at

19 the package at Page 7 that we built for the

20 Uos, you'll notice that the packages

21 themselves come in a little bit lower than the

22 target Uo values.
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1 So as a practical matter, you could

2 have separate tables. I don't think it

3 matters that much. But I think you lose very

4 little if you take an average. But again, I'm

5 kind of neutral on this decision.

6 I will make one other point, that

7 the math that you're about to see makes some

8 more accommodation to the single section

9 homes, and I'll explain that when we get

10 there.

11 But I think that's really the

12 salient point that we're talking about here,

13 which is how do we recognize the fact that

14 single sections should have a little bit more

15 accommodation because they tend to be more

16 affordable.

17 MR. RAMIREZ: All right, let's get

18 Lowell, Lois, and then Mark.

19 MR. UNGAR: And I just had a

20 question. I thought the Uo values we were

21 dealing with were exactly from the packages,

22 and you just said they are not the same. I
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1 just was confused by that.

2 MR. LEVY: If you look on Page 7,

3 Lowell, you'll see what I'm talking about. 

4 This is where we're eventually going with the

5 question you asked earlier.

6 MR. UNGAR: I understand for Page 7.

7 But I'm sorry, but what we just approved was

8 Page 5 not Page 7. So on Page 5, which is

9 what we just approved, those are the Uo values

10 correspond exactly with the packages, right?

11 MR. LEVY: That's correct.

12 MR. HAGERMAN: Yes, I would suggest

13 just as a group since we've approved the Page

14 5 Uo values, as we go forward, we don't

15 deviate from the Uo values that we've already

16 approved, right, just so we don't confuse

17 people.

18 Somebody else had a comment about, I

19 think Mark, you had your hand up about the two

20 numbers versus the one composite number?

21 MR. WEISS: Yes, I did.

22 MS. HOFFMAN: Go ahead, go ahead.
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1 MR. WEISS: No, I appreciate your

2 comments and the concern you stated, Joe. And

3 it goes back to what I was talking about

4 yesterday which is this constant tension

5 between fine tuning on the one hand and

6 uniformity on the other, driving

7 affordability.

8 It's an interesting issue. You

9 know, I'll have to bring it to our folks and

10 see what they say.

11 MR. HAGERMAN: I would say to

12 Emmanuel's comments, I know that the averaging

13 is just a small little difference. I just

14 worry about the unintended consequences of

15 that. That's why I would prefer to have the

16 two tables with the difference just clearly

17 articulated rather than the averaging. But

18 Lois?

19 MR. WEISS: Could I just say one

20 thing I forgot to mention? I had mentioned

21 before, and again, as you get into smaller and

22 smaller manufacturers, you have manufacturers
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1 dealing with niche markets. And so it might

2 benefit potentially from what you're talking

3 about. So we'll check on that.

4 MR. RAMIREZ: Lois? And then we'll

5 get you, Mike, right after Lois.

6 MS. STARKEY: Yes, I just, I think I

7 maybe need to look at it a little more to be

8 more comfortable with it.

9 But I think, you know, what Joe is

10 saying on the single sections, you really get

11 a better and more accurate, you know, it

12 allows you to really make the argument that it

13 is more affordable, that the single section is

14 going to be more affordable.

15 So I think it addresses that

16 argument of affordability. So I guess it

17 would be a question of how, what impact

18 having, you know, actual impact on the table

19 would have in the factory in the building

20 process. And I would leave that up to the

21 manufacturers.

22 I'm hearing that that's not
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1 necessarily, you know, you look at a table and

2 you say okay, the single section needs this

3 and I can't see any downside in terms of

4 confusion or difficulty in building

5 methodology. But correct me if I'm wrong.

6 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. Michael?

7 MR. LUBLINER: Yes, I totally agree

8 with Lois. I think it provides flexibility to

9 have both in there for the manufacturers. And

10 I think it does get to the affordability issue

11 that's been hanging over our heads this whole

12 time.

13 So I'm wondering, Mark, did you get

14 to the direction of addressing some of your

15 affordability issues, at least associated with

16 the single wide.

17 MR. WEISS: Yes, I mean, it

18 certainly impacts that. And we'll follow up

19 on it and see what we can get. I had my hand

20 up to recognize you.

21 MR. MENDLEN: Yes, the only comment

22 I have is of you're going to go with two
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1 charts, the single and the double, then you

2 ought to make that multiple section because

3 there are a wide variety of multiple sections.

4 MR. HAGERMAN: That's a good

5 comment. Lois actually brought that up over

6 the break, that just for everybody, the Uo

7 columns there, Row 2 F and G should read Uo

8 single section, Uo multi section. I would go

9 ahead and make that change.

10 MR. LACEY: This is Eric from RICA.

11 As you can probably guess, I would like to go

12 as efficiently as we can with the Uo values

13 because there's a lot more flexibility built

14 in here. You know, I know that we've modeled

15 it, and a lot of good modeling, by the way.

16 You modeled it based on the

17 prescriptive table, but it's only been modeled

18 to one design with a specific raising area

19 percentage and specific wall construction and

20 dimensions and everything.

21 So I tend to agree that, you know,

22 picking one number is probably close enough.
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1 I'm not too concerned about setting the two

2 numbers. But if the industry would rather

3 have two numbers, we can have two numbers.

4 I think that making one window a

5 little bit smaller or a little bit larger

6 would probably account or, you know, changing

7 the wall dimension just a little bit might

8 account for the difference between the two.

9 But you know, I would prefer going

10 with the more stringent number wherever we can

11 here because there is going to be a lot more

12 flexibility and a little more leniency I think

13 in the trade off pass.

14 So I think if you're concerned about

15 costs or concerned about meeting these

16 numbers, understand that there's a tremendous

17 amount of flexibility in the Uo approach.

18 MR. RAMIREZ: And when you say Uo

19 approach --

20 MR. HAGERMAN: I think he means when

21 you follow the performance.

22 MR. LACEY: Performance or new
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1 compliance.

2 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, and I want to

3 talk about that next as far as are there other

4 compliance paths that we can reach agreement

5 on. Lois?

6 MR. LUBLINER: This is Mike Lubliner

7 again.

8 MR. HAGERMAN: Hold on.

9 MS. STARKEY: I just have a question

10 for Eric, a clarification.

11 MR. RAMIREZ: Go ahead, and then

12 we'll get to you, Michael. Sorry.

13 MS. STARKEY: So are you saying that

14 to meet a performance path for two different

15 Uos would be more problematic, the chart if it

16 was --

17 MR. LACEY: No, I'm saying, you

18 know, we're looking at several decimal places

19 down here. And if the industry wants two

20 different Uos, that's fine if that works

21 better for you.

22 I'm just saying that this many
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1 decimal places down, what we're talking about

2 is all the analyses, unless I'm mistaken, all

3 the analyses have been done on one design. 

4 And that another design is going to have a

5 different Uo, you know, with a different width

6 or a different length.

7 And so, you know, I wouldn't get too

8 wrapped around the axle on these. Recognizing

9 though, I would prefer keeping those Uo

10 numbers down as low as we can, low meaning

11 more efficient, because there is more

12 flexibility.

13 And you know, you could look at this

14 house design, and I'm sure an engineer could

15 take a look at it and say I bet if I change

16 the dimension this way, I could bump the Uo

17 number down significantly and I could skimp

18 here in the insulation or there in the

19 insulation.

20 So the efficiency person in me says

21 let's keep it stringent here, but the

22 compromise person in me says, you know, I
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1 don't know that you're saving that much by

2 moving the decimal.

3 MR. HAGERMAN: Joe Hagerman, DOE. 

4 I'm just worried about the affordability

5 issue. And particularly in the case if you

6 made a single section in Houston, be it a

7 0.084, which I don't disagree with everything

8 you said, you could reduce the amount of

9 windows the low income family could have.

10 Right, I just don't think that's

11 necessarily fair or just. It's much easier to

12 just give and recognize that geometrically

13 they're different, and you know, spatially in

14 three dimensions are different. Just give it

15 a 0.08 setting --

16 MR. SANTANA: Manny with Cavco.

17 MR. RAMIREZ: Manny, hold on one

18 second. Let me get Michael, David, and then

19 Manny. Michael?

20 MR. LUBLINER: Yes, I want to speak

21 to, you know, I was saying that I agree with

22 having two levels if this is going to be
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1 something that the manufacturers acknowledge

2 is addressing affordability.

3 If Mark comes back and says it's

4 not, then I think I'm in Lowell's camp, I

5 think we should be using the more stringent

6 one. I'll point out that the ten year data

7 that I have for the northwest shows 19,000

8 double section homes, 6,000 triple section

9 homes, and 1,500 single section homes.

10 So, you know, I do think that we

11 haven't even considered multi section homes,

12 triple section homes here and the implications

13 for even greater energy savings from them.

14 So again, unless there's some

15 concessions from the industry that this is

16 going to help solve the affordability issue,

17 I'm back to using the more stringent one. 

18 Thank you.

19 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay, David and then

20 Manny.

21 MR. TOMPOS: Well, you know,

22 according to Eric, and I think I agree with
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1 him, we're kind of in the, you know, we're at

2 the third decimal place where it's I don't

3 think the energy savings between the two is

4 that big of a deal.

5 Although, you know, as I've

6 expressed before, I'm getting a little

7 concerned as we drop below that 0.06 number in

8 meeting some of the requirements on some of

9 the smaller houses.

10 You know, if there's not that big of

11 a deal and to support affordability, I

12 recommend we just use the single section

13 values and have one section to simplify

14 things.

15 MS. HOFFMAN: You're saying single

16 for all --

17 MR. TOMPOS: Yes, single for

18 everything. I mean, we barely have a

19 difference between the two, and I'm saying,

20 you know, we need to keep affordability in

21 mind.

22 And I think getting a lot, like I've
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1 said before, going a lot below 0.06 is going

2 to be, there's going to be some issues there. 

3 So I know we've heard several cases that we

4 used more stringent. I'm supporting using the

5 slightly less stringent values.

6 MR. RAMIREZ: Got you. Okay, Manny.

7 (Simultaneous speaking)

8 MR. SANTANA: Manny with Cavco. 

9 We've touched on the differences between 0.07

10 or 0.087 and 0.084 and whether we should

11 average it or whether we should go with the

12 lowest.

13 You know, I just like to remind

14 everybody that we're talking about going down

15 to 0.07 and 0.04 when it is currently 0.116.

16 You know, and we're talking about going down

17 to 0.07 when it's really 0.096.

18 I mean, these numbers are going to

19 have a huge impact in all of those areas. And

20 I think, you know, why don't we take the one

21 or average out the two and find the lower U

22 values for, you know, the lowest most
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1 efficient U value.

2 You know, this is going to be a huge

3 significant jump in energy efficiency as it

4 is. A much greater leap than any year or any

5 code change of the IACC makes from one cycle

6 to the next.

7 You know, we could keep that in

8 mind. It's going to have a huge impact. And

9 you know, and also it doesn't seem that

10 anybody has any strong opposition to keeping

11 two or going to one.

12 You know, let's just vote and see

13 how it turns out.

14 MR. RAMIREZ: Well, the question --

15 (Simultaneous speaking)

16 MR. RAMIREZ: I'm sorry. Mark?

17 MALE PARTICIPANT: Mike.

18 MR. RAMIREZ: Mike? Mike, you had a

19 question.

20 MR. LUBLINER: Is the line open?

21 MALE PARTICIPANT: Yes.

22 MR. LUBLINER: And I agree it's a
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1 big jump, Manny. The reason for that is that

2 HUD has not updated these standards since

3 1994. And so I think that there is a good

4 justification economically to the consumer

5 that we've been working on that shows that

6 these numbers are cost effective to the

7 consumer, and that's why it's such a big jump.

8 And as I said earlier, you know, the

9 only people that like change are babies with

10 dirty diapers. And I think at this point,

11 we've got to hunker down, we've got to decide

12 whether these are technically feasible.

13 And if Dave Tompos has some

14 technical issues, I thought we flushed all

15 those out already in these costing of

16 achieving lower values than 0.060.

17 So you know, at this point I think

18 let's go ahead. I'm good for a vote, but I

19 would like to hear back from Mark Weiss as to

20 whether or not he supports and acknowledges

21 that this is an attempt to try to address

22 affordability.
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1 As I said, if he doesn't, then I'm

2 going to vote in favor of using the most

3 stringent ones here.

4 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay, Keith?

5 MR. DENNIS: Yes, I mean, I'm in the

6 camp with the affordability thing here, and I

7 think it does go towards affordability if it's

8 important that people do it. And I don't

9 think, you know, a couple of words that people

10 in D.C. disagreeing is a reason to vote one

11 way or another. I have to kind of bat that

12 issue.

13 But you know, somebody was saying

14 there's a small amount of these things

15 shipped. This is a very small difference, it

16 could mean an increase in price.

17 And there are other places

18 nationally to get energy savings that we have

19 people spending all kinds of energy with money

20 doing all kinds of things, driving around in

21 Hummers, going to water parks.

22 These guys are trying to get a home.
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1 Like, I think we need to be realistic about

2 what we're actually doing here. You know,

3 we're a bunch of people in D.C. making

4 decisions on what people are buying for a

5 house.

6 I think this is a good example of,

7 you know, pushing the limits a little too far,

8 and let's not get kind of crazy about it.

9 MS. HOFFMAN: And your point is?

10 MR. DENNIS: My point is let's not

11 go too far with this. And I think that, you

12 know, it's good for a big home, but it makes

13 a small home a little bit harder to get. 

14 Let's not, just let's not go there. Let's

15 just give some leeway.

16 MR. RAMIREZ: Well let me, because

17 it still, as a facilitator you're saying let's

18 vote. On what, right?

19 MR. HAGERMAN: Can we just vote on

20 two tables and see what the temperature is

21 with two tables, because I think --

22 MR. LEVY: Before we do that, can I
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1 just make one comment?

2 MR. HAGERMAN: -- physically

3 addresses Mark's affordability problems, or

4 issues. But go ahead, Emmanuel. And then

5 also Lowell has his hand up.

6 MR. LEVY: I just want to echo

7 something that Eric said earlier, which is

8 that we made a set of assumptions in putting

9 these tables together.

10 And one of the assumptions was that

11 all the houses had 12 percent window area. 

12 The truth is that single section homes, a lot

13 of particularly the affordable ones have less

14 glazing area.

15 So if we had simply assumed that

16 single homes, single section homes at 11.5

17 percent and multi section 12.5 percent, the

18 difference between these zero values would

19 have gone away. So it's an artifact somewhat

20 of our assumptions which are based upon

21 experience and not hard data.

22 And the second thing I wanted to --
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1 and so I'm making a case for combining them as

2 an average because that's probably more

3 reflective of how they'll be built anyway.

4 And the second thing is for many of

5 these cases, we're arguing over 0.001

6 difference, which is not even going to show up

7 in terms of compliance.

8 So I think if it was a larger

9 difference, I would say we would have a

10 reasonable reason for having this debate but

11 with a small difference, particularly when you

12 take the averages. Doesn't make any sense. 

13 That's my take on it.

14 MR. RAMIREZ: Michael?

15 MR. LUBLINER: Yes, so I have kind

16 of the average glazing percentage of core area

17 for the last ten years from the northwest. 

18 And what is showing is the single wides are 12

19 percent, they're the highest. The multi

20 section are at 8.4 and the triple section are

21 at 10.7.

22 MR. RAMIREZ: So I think what you're
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1 saying is, what Emmanuel was saying was

2 accurate?

3 MR. LUBLINER: At least my data

4 suggests it's 12 percent for singles.

5 MR. LEVY: And Michael, I want to

6 make just make the case that I made before

7 which is that the Northwest is a different

8 market.

9 And if you look, if you really look

10 at the heart of the industry which is in the

11 southeast, it's a different kind of market

12 than what your experiences were.

13 MR. RAMIREZ: So --

14 MR. LUBLINER: I agree with that. 

15 Somebody said we didn't have data. I just

16 wanted to share the data I have.

17 MR. RAMIREZ: If I understand

18 correctly, the builders don't really have an

19 issue with trying to do the two paths, that if

20 that's what it is, it should be fairly easy to

21 accommodate the two different numbers.

22 Let's get consensus on the two
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1 different numbers that are up on the screen

2 right now. So let's see a show of thumbs for

3 the two different single section, multi

4 section.

5 MR. HAGERMAN: In other words, two

6 tables.

7 MR. RAMIREZ: Two tables.

8 MR. SCHNEIDER: This is Peter. I'm

9 going to stick with just the multi section Uo

10 value.

11 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay, so that's a no

12 vote then. So anyone else on line with a no?

13 So we have Peter, David, and Mark. Mark, you

14 want to --

15 MR. WEISS: Yes. Again, this is

16 derivative of the cost issue. And without

17 prejudice to be following up on the single,

18 you know, versus double and two table matter.

19 MR. RAMIREZ: David?

20 MR. TOMPOS: I'm just trying to keep

21 simplicity and I'm not going to change

22 anything from going with the single section
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1 values. I think we're close enough and I

2 don't see why we can't keep affordability by

3 giving just a little bit.

4 MR. WEISS: And that would resolve

5 the issue you brought up.

6 MS. STARKEY: I guess I would like

7 to hear whether or not the average, taking an

8 average would be preferable versus having two

9 for the manufacturers because it sounds like

10 they think maybe an average is okay.

11 MR. RAMIREZ: All right, so --

12 MS. STARKEY: Average versus two.

13 MR. RAMIREZ: Let me ask --

14 MR. SCHNEIDER: This is Peter.

15 MR. RAMIREZ: Go ahead, Peter.

16 MR. SCHNEIDER: Am I on now?

17 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, go ahead, Peter.

18 MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, my point is,

19 and I would be interested to hear the rest of

20 the group's opinion on this, but at the end of

21 the day, if we're talking about an effective

22 Uo value that this home is going to achieve
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1 with the assumptions we're making with quality

2 assurance and oversight and so forth, that at

3 the end of the day if we require the multi

4 section Uo, we're going to be probably

5 achieving something closer to the single

6 section Uo.

7 And so I just feel like if that's

8 where we want to end up, then once we start

9 factoring in how these homes are actually

10 being turned out, we're going to be closer if

11 we lower the bar or increase the bar, however

12 you look at it. But a lower Uo is going to

13 get us where we want to be.

14 MS. STARKEY: As opposed to an

15 average?

16 MR. SCHNEIDER: Right. I mean, you

17 know, I'm okay to meet in the middle, but I

18 honestly feel as though if we were to look at

19 actual achievable results by the manufacturer

20 that are going to achieve actual Uo, effective

21 Uo values, I would say that if we get down to

22 the multi section number as shown in this
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1 table, that we're actually going to be

2 achieving the single section Uo value when you

3 factor in all the characteristics that really

4 link to an effective --

5 MR. RAMIREZ: So let me jump on real

6 quick because we had three no votes on that

7 one. Technically, you have consensus on it. 

8 But I want to see if we could get a stronger

9 one, right?

10 And I would like to check it if we

11 could do an average, a single one --

12 MR. HAGERMAN: Can I just make a

13 quick observation because I think that there's

14 really four options here, right? You take two

15 tables, you take an average, or you take one

16 column or the other column. You got four

17 choices here, right?

18 MS. STARKEY: We've heard advocates

19 from each of those positions.

20 MR. HAGERMAN: Right. So we just

21 took a vote on the two table, which is I think

22 is, you know, like, my opinion is the most of
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1 the compromise. It doesn't quite average it. 

2 And we have sort of a consensus, but it's a

3 little bit weak, as Javier said.

4 You're going to take a vote on the

5 average, and then take a vote on the --

6 (Simultaneous speaking)

7 MR. RAMIREZ: I'll tell you what,

8 because if we do the single, right, or if we

9 just say we'll take the higher or the lower,

10 we're probably going to get more dissension

11 than the average.

12 MR. HAGERMAN: You think so, right?

13 MR. RAMIREZ: Right, so I want to

14 skip that and I want to go to the average,

15 right, take an average number, one number. 

16 Let's see a show of thumbs for the average.

17 MS. HOFFMAN: And before we do that,

18 do you have comment?

19 MR. UNGAR: I do have a comment. I

20 can go --

21 MS. HOFFMAN: You can wait?

22 MR. UNGAR: I'm okay skipping it if
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1 you really want to move forward, but otherwise

2 I do have a comment.

3 MS. HOFFMAN: Say it.

4 MR. UNGAR: So --

5 MR. SCHNEIDER: This is Peter. I

6 have a quick just clarification question.

7 MR. RAMIREZ: All right, Peter,

8 we'll get that clarification question in just

9 a second. Go ahead, Lowell.

10 MR. UNGAR: Two things, actually. 

11 One is, I mean, while obviously if we have one

12 number I would prefer the lower number being

13 my organization. In fact, I mean, we're not

14 going to agree on that, nor are we going to

15 agree on the higher number. If we're going to

16 do one number, then I could see an average.

17 The other possibility would be if

18 there's really concern about meeting the

19 tighter numbers in the northern regions,

20 another way of doing it would be take the

21 single section number in the north and take

22 the multi section number in the south. And
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1 that would be another way, that would be a

2 different way of averaging options.

3 My larger point is I keep hearing

4 Mark say he wants to consult with his members

5 and that he's not ready to make this decision.

6 I'm very anxious of what industry thinks, I

7 think either one is a viable option.

8 And so it seems to me we can move

9 forward with these two numbers right now. I

10 don't think it will prevent us from doing

11 anything else. And let's give Mark a chance

12 to consult with his members and make this

13 decision later.

14 MR. LUBLINER: This is Mike

15 Lubliner. I agree with that. I would say we

16 voted right now on two, we've got consensus.

17 We can re-vote when Mark comes back and see if

18 we want to tweak this.

19 And I do think that what Peter said

20 about quality assurance is a critical issue.

21 I'm willing to go with an average down the

22 road if Mark's committed to this as an
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1 affordability concession.

2 However, I do not believe that the

3 current HUD Quality Assurance program provides

4 that. So I will encourage DOE as I have in my

5 ex parte deposition during the ANOPR to stay

6 abreast to what's going on on the enforcement

7 for at least a couple years to make sure that

8 the trainings and all the assumptions we've

9 used in this modeling is actually being

10 implemented, and tweak if it's necessary so

11 we're not burdening the industry with things

12 that maybe aren't as buildable as we thought

13 and also educating them on how to get to a

14 better practice in terms of quality

15 installation. Thank you.

16 MR. RAMIREZ: All right. Let's get

17 David, and then Lois.

18 MR. TOMPOS: I just want to say that

19 I'm completely offended about the comments

20 about the quality control in this industry. 

21 The oversight and the quality in this industry

22 is far beyond anything you're going to find in
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1 a site build house.

2 And Michael and Peter have made

3 accusations that there are issues out in the

4 field. I have held my tongue because most of

5 the technical stuff that he's brought up is

6 wrong.

7 And if he does have evidence that

8 there are issues out there, I would be more

9 than happy to look into them. But we do

10 address all the concerns, you know, if there

11 are problems in the field, we do take care of

12 them.

13 So I'm just stating my opinion that,

14 you know, some of these accusations are

15 without merit in my opinion.

16 MR. RAMIREZ: Noted. Lois?

17 MS. STARKEY: I would just like to

18 just see what the group thinks about an

19 average because it sounds like there's so many

20 factions that feel like two table, with two it

21 won't necessarily mean anything, that an

22 average is just as, would be easier and
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1 better.

2 MR. RAMIREZ: So you would like a

3 vote?

4 MS. STARKEY: So I would just like

5 to hear, to get, like, a vote on average. And

6 then we'll have two consensus approaches.

7 MR. RAMIREZ: Then what? I mean, if

8 we have two of them where, let's say, it's

9 approved by consensus, then what do you do

10 with that?

11 MR. HAGERMAN: Let's just find out.

12 MS. STARKEY: Yes.

13 MR. HAGERMAN: Let's vote.

14 MR. RAMIREZ: You guys got it. 

15 Let's see it. Let's see thumbs, let's see

16 thumbs on an average. An average number. All

17 right, so anyone on line with your thumbs down

18 for one average number?

19 All right, so the only no vote was

20 Mark. And I think we have the --

21 MS. HOFFMAN: Keith, did you vote?

22 MALE PARTICIPANT: Derivative --
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1 MR. DENNIS: I'm just sideways.

2 MS. HOFFMAN: Sideways, okay.

3 (Off microphone comments)

4 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, there's only one

5 no vote. So we --

6 MR. HAGERMAN: We have consensus

7 then.

8 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes.

9 MS. HOFFMAN: It is consensus.

10 MR. HAGERMAN: Oh, I'm sorry, if you

11 do sideways, it's --

12 MS. HOFFMAN: It's consensus.

13 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, sideways is you

14 don't really, so let's refresh everyone's

15 memory here. Thumbs up --

16 MR. ROY: Then we can have them

17 tied. I'm happy to have them tied. I'll go

18 down with you on this if you wish. I really

19 don't care. I just want to move on from this.

20 Let's move on from this.

21 MR. HAGERMAN: I say

22 notwithstanding, I mean, we already voted on
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1 having two tables until we hear back from

2 Mark's group. And so we can take it back up

3 when we hear from them.

4 MR. WEISS: My no vote is just based

5 on a cost issue, and I will follow up on the

6 other matter.

7 MS. HOFFMAN: But it was, just to

8 summarize, it was a consensus enough, not a

9 stirring strong one, but it was a consensus.

10 But we also have a feeling about the average

11 as another possibility. So we're not

12 definitively resolving it, we're waiting for

13 Mark to come back.

14 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, there are a few

15 more sideway votes on that one than the

16 previous.

17 MS. HOFFMAN: Yes, right.

18 MR. DENNIS: I'm sideways, as well.

19 I mean, I think that the two tables, it seems

20 to do more for affordability. But, you know,

21 I don't really care, but it seems kind of

22 counterintuitive that you care about it and,
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1 you know, affordability wouldn't be --

2 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, the stronger

3 consensus vote was a double. But single may

4 be the alternative.

5 MR. WEISS: Yes. I mean, I like

6 Dave's proposal, you know, one to one table

7 based on single section. But you know, I got

8 to talk to our people.

9 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes. Well, that is

10 what we just voted on, which was the average

11 number where David was talking about using a

12 higher number, where I'm sure there are some

13 folks in the room would say all right, you

14 want a single number, let's do it a lower

15 number, right?

16 (Simultaneous speaking)

17 MS. HOFFMAN: I think we have that.

18 We have Peter and Michael saying the higher

19 number and you guys saying lower. So I think

20 we've got all four views here.

21 MR. RAMIREZ: That's why I skipped

22 those and just went right to the average.
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1 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay. But I think

2 we've got a feel for this. We should probably

3 move on then. We have a couple of things

4 before lunch, and then Emmanuel, are you going

5 to say --

6 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, before we get to

7 Emmanuel, I wanted to just ask the group do we

8 need to talk about a we do it now as far as

9 other performance paths. Do we --

10 MR. LACEY: I can speak to that. I

11 raised that yesterday. This is Eric from

12 RECA. You know, I raised this issue yesterday

13 not knowing if we needed to discuss it, maybe

14 we can wrap it up quickly.

15 Right now my understanding is we

16 have a prescriptive table that's very similar

17 to the IECC prescriptive table and obviously

18 you'd probably have to add a few more details,

19 you know, the mandatory requirements and maybe

20 some footnotes to the table and so on, but the

21 concept I think is there to have a

22 prescriptive path.
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1 And we're talking about U sub o

2 numbers and my assumption is that there would

3 also be a performance path or U sub o path. 

4 And likewise, you add the, you know, the

5 mandatory requirements and footnotes and other

6 details there.

7 But the two concepts are there, I

8 think, have a prescriptive and a U sub o path. 

9 Maybe, you know, if we want to include in a

10 recommendation to DOE the creative version of

11 REScheck that would be based on the U sub o

12 path or on the prescriptive path, that's, you

13 know, I think that probably a reasonable thing

14 to ask.

15 But is there a driving need for any

16 other performance or other compliance paths

17 that we haven't discussed already? I guess

18 that was the question I wanted to raise.

19 MR. ROY: It's a good one, this is

20 Robin. I think the other path, which is

21 really standing out there in the 2015 IECC is

22 energy rating index, right?
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1 MR. LACEY: Yes.

2 MR. ROY: And my organization has

3 really promoted that effort and was pushing it

4 hard in 2015. I'm very excited about it, but

5 I think there's so much motion in this

6 manufactured housing space, I'm very keen to

7 bed this one down.

8 We can revisit it in three years and

9 see if that is, that's something that will be

10 useful and want to go to. It hasn't been

11 proven up as a mechanism that is widely

12 adopted in the site build world, so I would be

13 willing to table that sort of thing, even

14 though it is in the IECC, recognizing our

15 interest in it.

16 MR. RAMIREZ: So when you say table

17 you mean other compliance paths and just stick

18 with prescriptive --

19 MS. HOFFMAN: Put it aside --

20 MR. ROY: I mean in the U.S. sense,

21 not the British sense, right.

22 MS. HOFFMAN: Right, you put --
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1 MR. ROY: And then just put it

2 aside.

3 MS. HOFFMAN: Put it aside.

4 MR. ROY: Recognize we care about

5 it, looking forward to seeing how the ERI

6 works in the site built world, revisit it in

7 a few years, if it's something that's useful

8 to manufacturers and to getting another

9 compliance path.

10 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes. Well when you

11 said put aside, you're saying that your, the

12 energy rating or all --

13 MS. HOFFMAN: No, no, no.

14 MR. ROY: There's another path in

15 the IECC called energy rating index and --

16 MS. HOFFMAN: Yes.

17 MR. ROY: -- I'm saying let's not

18 discuss it here.

19 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay, but what about

20 --

21 MR. RUTHER: But we need to have

22 discussion public.
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1 MR. RAMIREZ: What about possible

2 performance for UA?

3 MR. HAGERMAN: Can I just comment on

4 the ERI path real quick? I agree with you,

5 there's some data that I think we'd all have

6 to go through on that path that's going to

7 make it, I think, particularly hard on this

8 industry.

9 So I agree, let's table it for this

10 round of the standards, but I think --

11 MR. LUBLINER: This is Mike

12 Lubliner.

13 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, Mike?

14 MR. LUBLINER: Yes, I agree with

15 both those guys here for a couple reasons. 

16 And I was working with REScheck for years on

17 the technical committee, I do support a long

18 term goal of getting energy labels that have

19 ratings on the sticker, but I think for right

20 now, and I'd say Confucius say a man with

21 three rating, you know, systems never know

22 rating. I think we're good with perspective,
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1 with the Uo, I'd love to see that modification

2 made to REScheck to do that and we could table

3 this for now as Robin suggested.

4 One thing that I should point out

5 about the rating is it requires field visits. 

6 And so it's well beyond the scope of what

7 we're doing right now.

8 To get a rating you have to evaluate

9 the actual house in, after setup. So I would

10 support limiting this right now and recommend

11 it. Thank you.

12 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay, so we're good

13 then?

14 MR. LACEY: I think we're good.

15 MR. ROY: Are we ready for

16 consensus? We want to vote --

17 MS. HOFFMAN: Yes, it think we

18 should get a consensus.

19 MR. ROY: An agreement right?

20 MR. LACEY: Yes, that's fine.

21 MR. ROY: With consensus with the

22 Uo? Have a prescriptive in the Uo?
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1 MR. LACEY: Have a prescriptive path

2 and a Uo path.

3 MR. HAGERMAN: Yes, sir.

4 MR. LACEY: So two paths.

5 MR. HAGERMAN: Okay.

6 MS. HOFFMAN: And then you also

7 suggested the REScheck?

8 MR. LACEY: Well yes, that could be

9 in our recommendation to DOE to help provide

10 a goal that would calculate, you know.

11 MR. UNGAR: The REScheck doesn't

12 need to be a separate, is there --

13 MR. LACEY: No, it's not --

14 MR. UNGAR: -- any, a separate path

15 or is it just --

16 MR. LACEY: No, no, it's not.

17 MR. HAGERMAN: So can I just make a

18 quick recommendation that I think you have a,

19 I mean even though the department oversees

20 REScheck, I don't really know the ins and outs

21 of the REScheck program, what we do.

22 Could you help us, maybe before next
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1 meeting or by next meeting, write us up some,

2 like how do you talk about that, talk about

3 the changes so we can make sure they're

4 clearly expressed to our colleagues down the

5 hall?

6 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes. All right, so,

7 well then it comes down on that last quote

8 online.

9 MS. HOFFMAN: On the two paths to

10 compliance?

11 MR. RAMIREZ: Prescriptive and U sub

12 o. Okay, that's that, we add this.

13 MS. HOFFMAN: All right.

14 MR. RAMIREZ: All right, I would

15 suggest we're a, we're at 11:36, before we get

16 into the discussion on, and we're not going to

17 take a vote but we're just going to have some

18 discussion on the climate zones, you want to

19 break for lunch or, Manny, do you, is that

20 something, Emanuel, is that something you

21 could run through before lunch? How much time

22 do you need for this?
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1 MR. LEVY: Well I could introduce it

2 before lunch and then we could have lunch,

3 think about it and come back to it.

4 MR. HAGERMAN: I think that's a

5 great idea.

6 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay.

7 MR. HAGERMAN: Then we can all

8 caucus as we wish during lunch.

9 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay.

10 MR. RAMIREZ: All right, I'm going

11 to put your chart up.

12 MR. HAGERMAN: So tell me, can I,

13 this is Joe Hagerman. I know we have some

14 other items to go through, and Emanuel is

15 going to present this, but just also something

16 to think about over the lunch break, it be

17 really nice to have a report out from all the

18 subcommittees that, you know, and they don't

19 have to be extensive report outs, but since

20 we're very close to, I think, coming up with

21 a nice term sheet, if there's anything

22 outstanding that needs to be discussed it be
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1 really nice to hear about those items.

2 I mean you don't have to really

3 necessarily tell us all the ins and outs of

4 what you've been doing as a group, but if you,

5 if there's any concerns or there's other

6 outstanding items that need to be resolved we

7 need to quickly start making a list of those

8 and working through them.

9 I'm thinking in particular, Manny, I

10 know we've gone through all the IECC or I

11 think we've gone through all the IECC

12 provisions, but if there's any other

13 outstanding items that we need to be aware of,

14 let's hear about those, right?

15 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. Yes, and we

16 have stop after lunch, so think about it at

17 lunch, okay.

18 Okay, Manny, I'm sorry, Emanuel,

19 here's your map, you want to walk us through

20 it?

21 MR. LEVY: Okay. Yes. Okay, Map

22 version 27.3. What I tried to do is embody
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1 some of the discussions that went on yesterday

2 about mapping and trying to get closer to the

3 IECC but while at the same time retaining some

4 of the benefits of the current HUD map.

5 So what I did is, last night, using

6 the IECC map as a starting point, as a

7 template for the zones, the one that we looked

8 at yesterday was similarly Uo values sort of

9 working over the map. And I made some

10 modifications to where the boarders fell to

11 try to make them more along the state lines

12 than the IECC map.

13 And I'll show you some examples of

14 that. And I moved, I made it, there's some

15 specific changes here that I want to kind of

16 highlight because they're slightly

17 counterintuitive.

18 So essentially what I did is I

19 combined the zones according to what the

20 similarities were in the U sub o's and then I

21 moved the boarders a little bit to get them on

22 the state lines, and I'll show you some
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1 examples again.

2 So I want to point out the specific

3 changes I made that are a little unique. The

4 what was in IECC Zone 2, which is mainly that

5 bottom part of Texas and Florida, I included

6 in that Southern, most Southern zone, which

7 shows the highest U sub o value, states of,

8 all of the states of Louisiana, Alabama,

9 Mississippi, Georgia and South Carolina.

10 And I did that kind of an homage to

11 what I think Robin was trying to achieve with

12 his two paths to compliance. And because in

13 that area, which in that now, area that's red

14 on your screen, is the lion's share to

15 affordable housing, manufactured housing

16 that's affordable in this country.

17 There's still some more low, I think

18 low cost housing up a little further North in

19 Kentucky and Tennessee, in particular, but

20 those are different now climatically that I

21 left those in Zone 2.

22 So by moving those four states into
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1 Zone 1 made it a little bit easier for those

2 states to comply. And I think that's kind of

3 moving towards what Robin was trying to

4 achieve. That's the most significant change

5 I've made to the map after combing the zones.

6 I also, and this is a little less, I

7 left the piece in Arizona which you see that's

8 in red, I left that in red, that's something

9 that we can talk about. That is the Southern

10 part of the state that had specific miles,

11 weather conditions similar to the rest of Zone

12 1. Zone 2.

13 So I left that in red. That was

14 kind of one the exceptions to try and to fold

15 zones together.

16 And then the rest of this is, you

17 can see where I tried to move the boarders to

18 get along state lines. So if you look from

19 California, for example, the upper part of

20 California would have been in 3 and I moved

21 that into 2.

22 Clark County and Las Vegas has been
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1 moved into, up into, from 2 to up to 3. You

2 can see where things have been shifted a

3 little bit by looking at the dotted line

4 that's coming across here, that that is the

5 board of the IECC zone.

6 So some parts have been moved from 2

7 to 3 and some from 3 to 2, mainly to get

8 things in, along the state lines. But

9 primarily focusing on those areas where there

10 aren't a lot of homes so it's not having a

11 huge impact overall. And I subsumed some of

12 the states into Zone 2. Let me just finish

13 this and then we'll get to comments.

14 I also made some changes in Zone 4. 

15 Moved the 4 down to cover all of North Dakota. 

16 I eliminated the, for Michigan, the upper

17 Peninsula, put that back into Zone 3 so that

18 Michigan is together as one piece. But

19 otherwise, that zone has stayed intact.

20 And you can see what the, if we have

21 a single Uo value, not sure when that

22 conversation came out, approximately what it
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1 would be. These are exactly the same numbers

2 that we just agreed upon, obviously, but

3 essentially what we agreed to.

4 And just one of the ramifications of

5 this is that the change in U sub o value from

6 the current HUD standard to the new HUD

7 standard would be in the range of 27 percent

8 increase improvement up to like 45 percent

9 improvement. So it's quite a substantial

10 improvement from current types to these

11 levels.

12 So that's, this is really a mapping

13 proposal that I've put in front of you.

14 MR. LUBLINER: This is Mike

15 Lubliner.

16 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, go ahead,

17 Michael.

18 MR. LUBLINER: Thanks. I mean I

19 want to thank you for taking a stab at this.

20 First comment, if you go to the

21 tables that we voted on, it shows that Climate

22 Zone 4 Marine is the same as Climate 5. So
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1 I'm not sure if this is just an oversight or

2 what but I would think that we have

3 justification based on the table there, if you

4 can put that table up, it's pretty clear there

5 where the exemption is, that would make the

6 states of Oregon and Washington all blue and

7 satisfy my concerns yesterday without, and it

8 would be more consistent with what's in the

9 IECC. Which is that the states of Washington

10 and Oregon are the same climate.

11 I'd also suggest that Montana be

12 included in the purple climate zone. It has

13 comparable weather conditions and it could be

14 easily accommodated in drawing the map around

15 the state of Montana to extend over.

16 But the first point that I made

17 about Washington and Oregon is a critical one

18 and I would ask that you go back to the table

19 we voted on so I can explain this to the folks

20 nobody, so they don't understand it?

21 MR. RAMIREZ: Michael, hold on a

22 second.
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1 MR. LUBLINER: Could you do that

2 please?

3 MR. RAMIREZ: Hold on a second. I'm

4 going to past the floor over to Robin because

5 what you're seeing on the screen right now is

6 a map that Robin had made and --

7 MR. LUBLINER: Okay, great.

8 MR. RAMIREZ: -- I think it's

9 addressing you're concern, but --

10 MR. ROY: Robin here.

11 MR. LUBLINER: It is.

12 MR. ROY: It's just making --

13 MR. LUBLINER: Thank you, Robin.

14 MR. ROY: Emanuel, I love what you

15 did with maps, I think it's so much fun. Look

16 what I can do to the map too, it's great.

17 I did not do anything like moving

18 state lines around, all I did was combine the

19 IECC zones that was consistent with what we've

20 been, you know, into those groupings without

21 changing any of the boundaries.

22 And to Luby's point, there is that
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1 IECC Marine Zone 4, which is treated in IECC

2 with the same insulating unit values as Zone

3 5. So I just combined those.

4 It's Western Washington, Western

5 Oregon and the bits of Northwestern

6 California. So it's just to that point.

7 Look, I got to say, that wouldn't be

8 very hard I think, Emanuel, to include those

9 pieces of Washington and Oregon in your

10 proposal either. Well not in your proposal,

11 I'm not sure you're proposing that, I'm

12 certainly not proposing this, I was just

13 drawing this as an exercise.

14 But I suspect it wouldn't be hard to

15 include those pieces of Oregon and Washington

16 that are in Marine Zone 4 in Zone 5.

17 MS. HOFFMAN: You mean Zone 3.

18 MR. ROY: Sorry. In the new Zone 3,

19 that's right, yes.

20 MS. HOFFMAN: Zone 3.

21 MR. RAMIREZ: Keith?

22 MR. DENNIS: Can I ask you a
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1 question. Why is, are we planning on voting

2 on the zones today?

3 MR. RAMIREZ: No.

4 MS. HOFFMAN: No.

5 MR. DENNIS: When people are putting

6 their zones together would it be possible to

7 make a note of which states would be --

8 MS. HOFFMAN: Yes.

9 MR. DENNIS: -- have split? Because

10 we have a lot of utilities, utilities have a

11 lot of manufactured housing and when they're

12 split I don't know if it's going to affect

13 them and I'd like to just ultimately contact

14 the states who it would effect, I don't think

15 it will, but I'd like to see, I saw Minnesota

16 was split in the last one which is why I asked

17 and I don't think that they were split before. 

18 So I just want --

19 MR. ROY: There's a funny little

20 piece of split in North Carolina in there

21 which is Zone 3. You can barely see it.

22 MR. DENNIS: HUD didn't have any
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1 split before, right?

2 MS. HOFFMAN: No.

3 DR. HOWE: Rather than --

4 MS. HOFFMAN: Matter of fact it's

5 all states.

6 MR. DENNIS: Rather than asking all

7 the states if the splits, I'd just rather ask,

8 you know, whatever state would be affected by

9 what we're voting on. It's not a big deal but

10 if you could.

11 MR. RAMIREZ: Lois?

12 MS. STARKEY: I had a chance to --

13 MR. LUBLINER: This is Mike Lubliner

14 --

15 MR. RAMIREZ: Hold on a second

16 Michael, Lois --

17 MS. STARKEY: I did have a chance to

18 --

19 MR. LUBLINER: Okay.

20 MS. STARKEY: -- have some

21 additional conversations with manufactures

22 about the zone issue. And if, they're
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1 preference would be to try to, we have to have

2 more zones try to go by state lines if at all,

3 you know, for the most part.

4 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay, thank you. 

5 Michael?

6 MR. LUBLINER: Yes, I firmly support

7 what Robin has here and if there is maybe a

8 trial balloon thumbs up and see if we can move

9 forward pending some feedback from the

10 gentleman who just spoke regarding his concern

11 in wanting to get clarity from his state.

12 But it think this solves my problem,

13 I think it's a solution that's a good one and

14 it takes into consideration the definition of

15 the marine climate for exception, which

16 Emanuel's map did not, and it also doesn't

17 arbitrarily cut things out between Montana and

18 North Dakota which obviously have the same

19 climate. Thank you.

20 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. Yes, I know

21 that there was a couple, there's a couple now

22 and Keith had asked to have an opportunity to
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1 speak with some of his folks and previously I

2 think, you still need a little bit more

3 discussion with your folks.

4 MS. STARKEY: Okay, but I think

5 they're comfortable, I think they'd be more

6 comfortable with a state approach. And

7 whether they put Montana in or in a different

8 zone and put all of Washington and Oregon in

9 zone, in a colder zone, you know, we can have

10 that debate, but I think we, yes, let's have

11 a little more discussion.

12 MR. RAMIREZ: So you're willing to

13 vote on something as long as it's within the

14 state lines?

15 MS. STARKEY: I think, is that,

16 unless I'm hearing if there's, I think that

17 was our view.

18 MR. ROY: But can you, it's not that

19 you would necessary oppose going on IECC

20 weather driven definition, but you would, the

21 members would prefer --

22 MR. RAMIREZ: Right.
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1 MR. ROY: -- to have a state

2 definition. I mean it be interesting just to

3 know how deep that preference and what the

4 impositions would be.

5 MS. STARKEY: Yes.

6 MR. ROY: I'm really, I'm not trying

7 to impose any costs that are undo but I mean

8 obviously --

9 MS. STARKEY: Yes, no I mean let's,

10 I mean if we have a few minutes to talk we can

11 come back and talk later --

12 MR. ROY: That be great.

13 MS. STARKEY: -- afterwards. But,

14 you know, we should have a little bit more

15 discussion and hear from the manufactures that

16 are on this committee as to what they would

17 prefer between your approach, Robin, and

18 Emanuel's approach. Make some modifications.

19 MR. ROY: And also again, this is

20 not my proposal --

21 MS. STARKEY: Yes.

22 MR. ROY: -- this is just taking the
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1 IECC --

2 MS. STARKEY: Right. And it's

3 morphing into a proposal that is --

4 MR. ROY: Right.

5 MS. STARKEY: -- different than what

6 Emanuel was --

7 MR. RAMIREZ: All right, let's get

8 Keith, Lowell, Mark and then Joe.

9 MR. DENNIS: Yes. And some people

10 on the phone are here right now about this,

11 but for instance West Virginia is split up and

12 I know we're doing a lot in West Virginia with

13 this state to get programs in and I also see

14 Indiana, Hoosier in Indiana, is trying to do

15 something with the state.

16 So it might have an effect from a

17 policy perspective that I don't know that we

18 want, I mean it looks like it's just around

19 the edges and stuff, so I'd like today --

20 MS. HOFFMAN: You want a breakdown

21 in the states?

22 MR. DENNIS: Well the states for
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1 instance, the legislator may allow you to buy

2 a certain home and replace the old HUD homes

3 with new homes and it would be within the

4 state, and there might be different

5 specification.

6 I don't know how it would really

7 impact it, I'm not really an expert. I know,

8 I think Emanuel's group probably works on that

9 program a little bit.

10 MS. HOFFMAN: Yes.

11 MR. DENNIS: And I think next steps

12 --

13 MS. HOFFMAN: Replacement --

14 MR. DENNIS: -- replacement. So

15 state policies can matter. And if it's just

16 around the edges it might, there might be a

17 rational that we can say for why we use

18 weather, but, this way or that way.

19 I mean that's, I think it's a

20 consideration, a practical consideration

21 especially when it's just like little pieces

22 of West Virginia and little pieces of Indiana
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1 and pieces of Ohio that seem like, you know,

2 state lines are pretty bright. You know what

3 I mean?

4 MR. ROY: Well I got a question for

5 you, and maybe a bit of a comment too. And I

6 suspect you're doing, your co-ops are doing

7 all kinds of energy efficiency work, not just

8 in manufactured housing but also in site

9 built, so they're dealing with this already,

10 but it would be interesting to get your co-ops

11 members, your members views to see if that's

12 particularly problematic.

13 And I also note that some co-ops

14 operate in multiple states. They're, some of

15 them are used to complexity.

16 MR. DENNIS: It's true. It's true.

17 MR. ROY: I'm not saying --

18 MR. DENNIS: Right.

19 MR. ROY: -- it gives the answer but

20 --

21 MR. DENNIS: Right.

22 MR. ROY: -- we're pretty confident
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1 --

2 MR. DENNIS: That's true, it's just

3 the legislature, the legislate, getting a

4 legislation change in order to improve

5 manufacture housing is a big --

6 MR. ROY: Yes.

7 MR. DENNIS: -- lobby effort and

8 everything like --

9 MR. ROY: Appreciate that.

10 MR. DENNIS: So it would be a shame

11 to get that changed and have different rules

12 and make it more difficult, you know. So I'd

13 like to hear what they have to say. But it's

14 a consideration.

15 MR. ROY: Yes.

16 MR. RAMIREZ: So let's get Lowell,

17 Mark and then Joe.

18 MS. HOFFMAN: Oh, good.

19 MR. HAGERMAN: I'm just going to

20 pass these out so everybody will have copies

21 --

22 MS. HOFFMAN: Great.
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1 MR. HAGERMAN: -- of the maps and --

2 MR. UNGAR: Yes. I note it's

3 presumably with like new construction programs

4 and, right, if you were doing stick built then

5 they would have this issue. For retrofits it

6 didn't matter that much.

7 So I would wonder if we could take

8 something like this map and over the border

9 between Zone 2 and 3, where it is probably not

10 as many homes, make that follow state lines.

11 For Texas I would think there would

12 be more of a justification for potentially

13 splitting because there's so many manufactured

14 homes. There might be more reason to split

15 the state of Texas even if we don't, or in

16 general following state lines in other places.

17 And I don't know if there are any,

18 if Nevada or any place else would be an

19 exception as well.

20 And I guess the other thing was just

21 obviously there's, beside the question of

22 state versus county lines and I know it was a
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1 very different map, and so I would have some

2 concerns about the way that states were split

3 on that.

4 Oh, and I guess the fourth question

5 is, in terms of doing more zones, it wasn't

6 clear to me. I mean one option obviously is

7 for the far North, wasn't included anyway, but

8 it's kind of enough homes to justify its

9 separate zone if you're looking at the very

10 far North.

11 I suppose another possibility would

12 be to split somewhere along zone, in the Zone

13 2, kind of split that into separate zones. I

14 don't know if we have the data, if we have

15 enough different locations to really make that

16 or, you know, if there's any reason to do

17 that.

18 So, you know, certainly more zones

19 seems viable, it's just not clear to me

20 whether we have a clear justification in any

21 particular case for going to four or five

22 zones.
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1 MR. RAMIREZ: Do we have enough

2 knowledge in the room and the phone to have

3 that discussion where the lines might be a

4 little off on state lines where we might be

5 able to push something's up or down to fit

6 within a state based on their knowledge of

7 sales in those areas, right?

8 Do we have, is there enough, are

9 there enough folks in the room to try and

10 tighten this up a little bit?

11 MR. LUBLINER: This is Mike

12 Lubliner, Javier, Emanuel, we do have the data

13 on this, I have it in front of me, of the

14 sales in each of the states that comes in

15 play.

16 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay.

17 MR. UNGAR: Ideally you'd want

18 regions within the states.

19 MR. HAGERMAN: Yes, so I'm going

20 back where they're talking right now because

21 I'm not, I'm not, I'd really like us to

22 resolve as much as possible today as a group
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1 in using your professional judgement wherever

2 possible but, you know, absent of that, what

3 we could do for some analysis is pull the

4 census tracks and then make a determination on

5 how manufactured houses are in the census

6 tracks which were a little bit more granular

7 than what you see here.

8 In the, in particularly the areas or

9 the states that are colored, you know, that

10 have two colors, red. So if you just look at

11 New Mexico, for example right, we may do a

12 census analysis and see that, you know, all

13 the shipments are predominately North rather

14 than South which may give us some more, better

15 logical reasons on why we would turn a state

16 a solid color and not red.

17 I'm really, I mean that's how I

18 would, you know, mathematically engineering

19 way kind of resolve this. You know, if you

20 left it up to the department to resolve that's

21 the type of methodology that I would foresee

22 us taking, right?
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1 Now having said that, we may do that

2 analysis and the map may come back like this,

3 right? It maybe equal distributions in those

4 areas.

5 So it be nice to hear more

6 commentary, so appreciate, Keith, everything

7 you said about state boundary, I totally agree

8 with you, it be equally important to hear from

9 the manufactures what would happen like in

10 Texas where I think the census data will

11 probably say it's equal distribution

12 throughout the state, how we would deal with

13 those, how we would deal with those, those

14 issues, right?

15 I mean could the manufactures live

16 with Texas being divided like that? 

17 Particularly like to hear from the people that

18 manufacture in Texas.

19 MR. KESSLER: This is Bert. We have

20 two factories in Texas and I have given this

21 good thought and I don't anticipate this being

22 a real big issue.
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1 I think I mentioned yesterday that

2 for the most part any retailers that are near

3 one of those dividing lines, they usually

4 order their stock to the most stringent

5 requirement. So I don't see this as a

6 problem.

7 But dealing with it on the wind

8 state side right now, so.

9 MR. SANTANA: This is Manny with

10 Cavco, we also have several products in Texas

11 and they build a range of products. You know,

12 Texas is responsible for 20 percent of the

13 industry's shipments.

14 There a lot of single wides in Texas

15 and there's also a lot of zones where

16 affordability is a big concern. And having

17 said that, you know, what Bert said is also

18 true is that, you know, dealers also recognize

19 the climate in their area and plants, even the

20 ones that build very affordable products, they

21 also offer an energy package. You know, it is

22 what they call it.
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1 So they offer two tiers of, you

2 know, insulation packages and two tiers of

3 products. So I don't know that a division of

4 Texas is going to be the end of the world for

5 them.

6 They are going to struggle meeting

7 the U values. And because of that I like

8 Emanuel's map and his proposal for the reasons

9 he gave. You know, I don't think splitting

10 the state is going to be the end of the world,

11 I think that having some consideration for the

12 economic impact, because you have a higher

13 concentration of single wides and a higher

14 concentration of, you know, what we call, what

15 we've been calling the HUD base.

16 You know, the HUD base isn't really

17 accurate for the Northwest or, you know,

18 California or other parts of the country, but

19 the HUD base is pretty close to what's going

20 on in the South. You know, so maybe we can

21 keep that in mind.

22 MR. LEVY: Joe, can I interject a
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1 comment here, it's Emanuel? I think it's

2 partly demographic terms of the number of

3 shipments, but it's also climate conditions.

4 You know, Texas is kind of a unique

5 case because it covers three climates, three

6 of the IECC climate zones. So not to divide

7 it up in some fashion seems to be a, I think

8 would be a mistake.

9 The other thing we can keep in mind

10 about Texas, is in June it has 22.8 percent of

11 the total U.S. starts. Shipments rather.

12 So it's a big deal in terms of our

13 discussion. Ten times what the Northwest has

14 just in one state.

15 And so it's a really significant,

16 there's a real significant reason why to

17 divide up the state along the lines. Along

18 some lines.

19 MR. HAGERMAN: So --

20 MR. LEVY: It's --

21 MR. HAGERMAN: Go ahead, Mark.

22 MR. LUBLINER: This is Mike
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1 Lubliner.

2 MR. LEVY: -- marked as a plate --

3 MR. LUBLINER: Sorry, Mark, go for

4 it.

5 MR. LEVY: Okay, thanks.

6 MR. EZZO: Yes, I mean I like

7 Emanuel showed up there with the slides for

8 this one where he made an attempt at following

9 all the state lines, I think that's definitely

10 the, would be the preference for most of the

11 people out in retail world and manufactures.

12 But, and I recognize that Texas is

13 such a huge state. And like Emanuel just

14 said, covers I think three of the IECC climate

15 zones that I think separating the state like

16 is shown on this map here in the two sections,

17 is probably something that we need to

18 consider.

19 And like I think Bert and Manny

20 said, it's not the end of the world, it's

21 something I think that we could, we could

22 accommodate.
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1 But following the state boundaries,

2 where possible, I think is, I think is the

3 preferred approach.

4 MR. LUBLINER: This is Mike

5 Lubliner.

6 MR. RAMIREZ: Go ahead, Michael.

7 MR. LUBLINER: Yes, so Mark, I want

8 to followup. I agree that state boundaries

9 are preferred approach and based on what I

10 said, and I'd ask Emanuel the same question,

11 that there is an exemption for climate zone,

12 for IECC Climate Zone 4 Marine that puts it in

13 5.

14 And this is clear in the stuff we

15 just approved in the tables. So I would ask

16 you whether you agree that the states of

17 Washington and Oregon should be the same in

18 the blue, as Emanuel showed, and acknowledge

19 whether or not you disagree with the IECC in

20 terms of making Climate Zone 4 Marine meet the

21 Climate Zone 5 requirements?

22 MR. EZZO: Yes, this is Mark. I
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1 think that, I think the net effect of what

2 Emanuel is showing here, at least for the

3 factories that I deal with, is going to be,

4 they're going to worse case that vertical

5 line. I don't think they're going to want to

6 try and manage the complexity of the two

7 different zones that split the states.

8 But I also don't like forcing

9 everybody into that same mode where a

10 manufacturer or a retailer wants to take

11 advantage of the less strict requirements in

12 the Western parts of those states. I think

13 they should be allowed to.

14 MR. LUBLINER: So this is Mike

15 again, I just want to followup, maybe it's

16 important to go back to the table we voted on

17 now, so I want to be clear that, make sure

18 that everybody understands what I'm talking

19 about.

20 I think that this table that Emanuel

21 has shown separates the state mischaracterizes

22 what was in IC and the IECC. So I want to get
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1 clear that either I have mischaracterized it

2 or everybody else has.

3 As I think Eric notes or Lowell

4 noted, if you go to the table in the IECC that

5 we voted on it says very clearly that climate,

6 Marine Climate Zone 4 is Climate Zone 5. The

7 descriptive path in that table is the same.

8 MR. LEVY: Michael?

9 MR. LUBLINER: Yes, sir.

10 MR. LEVY: Michael, it's Emanuel. 

11 Let me just cut you off for a second because

12 I don't disagree with you but, and I agree

13 that we can include that.

14 The confusion came up, if you can go

15 to my presentation, Javier, on Page 3, you can

16 pull that back up?

17 MR. LUBLINER: And I suppose --

18 MR. LEVY: And I --

19 MR. LUBLINER: -- table first so

20 everybody understands what we're talking

21 about.

22 MR. RAMIREZ: Maybe we can --
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1 MR. HAGERMAN: I wonder if we should

2 take a lunch break right now and then

3 possibly, and I hate to impose on you,

4 Emanuel, but, you know, the last map that you

5 had up there didn't obviously, because we

6 hadn't voted on it yet when you sent it,

7 didn't include the updated Uo values. I

8 wonder if it would help if you --

9 MR. LUBLINER: Yes --

10 MR. HAGERMAN: -- maybe over lunch

11 could redraw something?

12 MR. LEVY: Right, we'll update those

13 and send them down with you, Joe.

14 MR. HAGERMAN: Okay, well let's do

15 that. Let's --

16 MR. LEVY: Joe, can you --

17 MR. HAGERMAN: Can we pause the

18 conversation and have a lunch break then come

19 back and continue?

20 MR. LUBLINER: I would respectfully

21 just ask you for 30 more seconds so you can

22 zoom in on this slide and you'll understand
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1 what I'm talking about?

2 MR. HAGERMAN: You're down to 29.

3 MR. LUBLINER: Okay, zoom in.

4 MR. EZZO: Michael, before you --

5 MR. LUBLINER: There it is. Okay,

6 there it is right there.

7 MR. EZZO: Michael, before you

8 extend that I just want to say that I agree

9 with you --

10 MR. LUBLINER: Thank you.

11 MR. EZZO: -- but if you look at the

12 map, just look at the map on Page 3, this can

13 be a discussion over lunch, this is where they

14 ended, just zoom down on that, this is where

15 the confusion came. This is the map out of

16 the IECC --

17 MR. LUBLINER: Yes, I understand.

18 MR. EZZO: -- which put the marine

19 in the 4. And I'm not sure why that is.

20 MR. LUBLINER: So go back to the

21 table we voted on please. I just want to make

22 sure everybody else that maybe doesn't
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1 understand this, Emanuel, is aware of what I'm

2 talking about here.

3 MS. HOFFMAN: I think we're all

4 aware.

5 MR. LUBLINER: So this right --

6 MS. HOFFMAN: No, Michael, I think

7 we're all aware.

8 MR. LUBLINER: Okay, have a good

9 lunch. Have a good lunch, thanks very much.

10 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay.

11 MR. HAGERMAN: And guys, if you want

12 to, feel like you need to redraw the map while

13 we're at lunch and want to send it to us,

14 absolutely.

15 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes.

16 MR. HAGERMAN: We're welcome for

17 anything to see if we can get resolution on

18 this quickly.

19 (Whereupon, the above-entitled

20 matter went off the record at 12:05 p.m. and

21 resumed at 1:18 p.m.)

22
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1 A-F-T-E-R-N-O-O-N S-E-S-S-I-O-N

2 (1:18 p.m.)

3 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay. Thank you. 

4 We're going back on the record, we're going to

5 get started. Thank you.

6 I just want to mention our colleague

7 and co-facilitator Ted Bantle is here. Thank

8 god. Okay.

9 When we left at the lunch break we

10 had a number of maps up there. And I think,

11 was Emanuel coming back or something --

12 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, Emanuel, have you

13 had a chance to get anything updated yet? Or

14 not yet?

15 MS. STARKEY: No I just talked to

16 him and he said he had a new map.

17 MR. HAGERMAN: Just to make sure,

18 can everybody hear us on the phone?

19 MR. LEVY: Yes.

20 MS. HOFFMAN: And that's Emanuel,

21 right?

22 MR. HAGERMAN: That's Emanuel.
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1

2 MR. LEVY: Okay. Or at least I can

3 hear you.

4 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. Do you have a

5 new map that you could send us to put up? Or

6 not yet?

7 MR. LEVY: I sent it already,

8 Javier, about 20 minutes ago.

9 MR. RAMIREZ: Did you send it to

10 Javier?

11 MR. LEVY: I did.

12 (Off microphone comments.)

13 MR. LEVY: Javier, did you not get

14 it?

15 MR. HAGERMAN: Yes, it has not come

16 through yet. Yes, the latest one I have is --

17 Oh wait a second.

18 MS. HOFFMAN: Oh that looks like it. 

19 About 12:42. That's it.

20 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, you know, because

21 mine still has Chicago time, so that was

22 11:40.
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1 All right. So what we're going to

2 try doing is this map that Emanuel put

3 together has the two different Uo values as

4 far as single and multi-section.

5 And the discussion that I'd like to

6 have with you all is see, and tapping into the

7 subject matter experts in the room, right, as

8 far as if this path doesn't work what do we do

9 in order to make it work.

10 And we're going to try to get into

11 that way, we can actually put some little

12 lines on here as we go. So we just need to

13 get the orientation right on here. So as soon

14 as we do we'll start that discussion.

15 Emanuel, is there anything that you

16 wanted to tell us as far as a set-up for this

17 before we get rolling?

18 MR. LEVY: Just that the one change

19 that's been made is the coast of Oregon and

20 Washington have now been included in Zone 3. 

21 And the U values are shown for single and

22 multi in the parentheses below each zone,
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1 these are the ones that we discussed earlier. 

2 Those are the only changes that have been

3 made.

4 MR. RAMIREZ: All right. So how

5 does the map look to folks. Where do we -- Is

6 this the new map or do we need to make some

7 changes to it?

8 MR. HAGERMAN: Would it help if I, do

9 I need to print it out for anybody? I mean

10 it's pretty --

11 MR. MENDLEN: We're good.

12 MR. LUBLINER: This is Mike Lubliner.

13 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, Michael.

14 MR. LUBLINER: Yes, I thank you,

15 Emanuel, for acknowledging that exemption

16 there for green climate, I appreciate that.

17 I was just wondering on the purple

18 climate zone, what are the metrics used to

19 define that? Because it's not by state and

20 it's not, you know, so what drove us to do

21 that?

22 I know that like Helena, Montana for
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1 example has similar life cycle cost enough to

2 erode that. So I was just wondering what

3 drove us to limit the purple to its current

4 area? It may not matter when all is said and

5 done. I don't know.

6 MR. LEVY: I can explain that. The

7 purple area essentially is what's in 7 and 8,

8 or 7 I should say in the IECC, except that

9 I've added in the North Dakota the bottom of

10 the state up into that zone. So all of North

11 Dakota, to keep the state together, is added.

12 But I didn't add in the rest of

13 Minnesota or Wisconsin thinking that there was

14 a enough of a climatic difference there to

15 keep the boundaries the way they are in the

16 IECC.

17 So essentially I have expanded this

18 area from what's in the IECC but only to

19 include the bottom of North Dakota. All of

20 Montana is in Zone 6 and I've left it there.

21 MR. HAGERMAN: This is Joe Hagerman,

22 DOE. Is there any reason like the southern
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1 states, like South Carolina, Georgia, Alabama,

2 Mississippi, would be Climate Zone 1 and not

3 Climate Zone 2?

4 MR. LEVY: Yes, Joe, this is what I

5 tried to -- This is Emanuel. This is what I

6 tried to address earlier. Right now in

7 Climate Zone 2 for the IECC that includes the,

8 that's right, that's what you're looking at

9 right there.

10 MR. HAGERMAN: Right.

11 MR. LEVY: It's been blown up. I

12 took the liberty of including the rest of

13 those southern states, Louisiana over to South

14 Carolina, because that is really the heart of

15 the affordable housing industry in the South.

16 And I felt at least that it should be

17 given a little bit more leniency in terms of

18 compliance because that is really, I mean, and

19 this gets to the heart of what I think what

20 Robin was trying to at with the bifurcated

21 standard.

22 This allows that affordable housing
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1 area not to be really challenged in terms of

2 cost as dramatically as what it would it be if

3 it was in Zone 2.

4 So, again, this is an affordability

5 issue. It's just another way of getting at

6 what we were trying to deal with earlier. And

7 from our experience those are the states that

8 have affordable housing.

9 MR. RAMIREZ: Lois -- I'm sorry. 

10 Lois up first.

11 MS. STARKEY: Emanuel, what is the

12 percentage, and maybe we don't know the number

13 of homes, but if we go to this Zone 1 with

14 these new values, what improvements over the

15 existing HUD 1 are we making, in percentage

16 terms?

17 MR. LEVY: Oh so it's, I have that

18 figured somewhere here. It's -- there's a

19 .116 day, we're talking about taking it down

20 to about .0085. So it's around 28/29 percent. 

21 You'd have 28 percent improvement.

22 MR. WEISS: Could I just follow up on
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1 this?

2 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, go ahead, Mark.

3 MR. WEISS: And this goes back to

4 something Emanuel said this morning. Thanks,

5 Emanuel, could you just take that out to the

6 full range? Going all the way, I guess, to

7 Zone 4.

8 So it would be 28 percent improvement

9 up to what further percentage of an

10 improvement in the highest zone? I think you

11 had mentioned this earlier.

12 MR. LEVY: So you're saying what is

13 the range of the improvements across the

14 zones, Mark?

15 MR. WEISS: Yes. Yes. Lowest I

16 guess would be 28 percent, what you just said. 

17 Up to, what would be the highest?

18 MR. LEVY: That's in the low 40

19 percent, percentile.

20 MR. WEISS: Okay. Thank you.

21 MR. LEVY: You can see right away,

22 for anybody who knows the HUD map, that the
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1 top of Texas was in .0069 or so and today it's

2 .116. That's a 40-some percent improvement

3 for that section. And all the other states

4 that are currently in Zone 1.

5 I think that would be probably, I

6 mean, if you take the most owned zone, we're

7 going to .050 or .051 from what is today .079,

8 so that's again a 30 percent improvement. And

9 they're all in the range of 28 to 40-some

10 percent. On all the current levels.

11 MR. WEISS: I'm sorry. Did you say

12 47 or 40-some?

13 MR. LEVY: Forty-something, like 42. 

14 I mean, it's a simple calculation but I

15 haven't done it.

16 MR. WEISS: Okay. Thank you.

17 MR. HAGERMAN: Hey, Emanuel, this is

18 Joe Hagerman again. Do we know what the, and

19 I know we could out this value by doing some

20 math and looking at our spreadsheet again. 

21 But maybe just a ballpark figure here. Do we

22 know what the relative cost difference between
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1 meeting your Zone 1 versus your Zone 2,

2 particularly in those southern states?

3 Like I understand what you're saying

4 that you're trying to address affordability,

5 which, you know, I fully support. But is it

6 actually cheaper to meet a Zone 1 than a Zone

7 2? And how much cheaper is it?

8 MR. LEVY: Is it less expensive to

9 meet Zone 1 than Zone 2, is that the question?

10 MR. HAGERMAN: Yes. And how much

11 less expensive? You follow the question?

12 MR. LEVY: I don't want to go ahead

13 --

14 MR. HAGERMAN: The reason I said that

15 is because I remember in some of the tables it

16 looked like in some climate zones, meeting the

17 different zones actually, you know, costed

18 more in Climate Zone 1 than Climate Zone 2. 

19 But I don't know if that's because the

20 baseline, you know, what the baseline was or

21 that -- Do you understand the question?

22 MR. LEVY: Are all the -- 
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1 MR. HAGERMAN: If we're going to say

2 it's more affordable let's just verify that

3 fact that it indeed is more affordable, that's

4 my point. Right?

5 MR. ROY: This is Robin. I think we

6 should also say it's a lower first class, when

7 you say it's more affordable. Because I

8 looked at it, that's really the right way to

9 characterize it.

10 MR. RAMIREZ: Emanuel, I love what

11 you've put out here. Sorry, am I getting in

12 front of Lowell? I did not mean to do that.

13 PARTICIPANT: Lowell's been patient.

14 MR. UNGAR: Yes, I want to say for

15 the most part I think this map makes a lot of

16 sense. I wonder in the North whether it's

17 worth having a separate fourth region. But

18 I'm certainly not opposed to it if it makes

19 sense.

20 I wonder if in New Mexico, where most

21 of the population I think is in the northern

22 part, whether it makes sense to put all of New
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1 Mexico in the southern part.

2 And I guess whether it makes sense

3 for Arizona to be split. Again, I don't feel

4 strongly on those.

5 The South, those four states I think

6 that Joe mentioned, the same ones that I'm

7 looking at, really does concern me. I mean

8 most of those states would be in Region 2

9 according to the maps. I mean that would be,

10 if we were to follow the IECC and just adjust

11 slightly to follow state lines all of those

12 would go into the North. Sorry, into the

13 second region.

14 And I would be, you know, so that

15 would be fine. Just move those four states

16 into the second region would be okay with me. 

17 If dividing them along the IECC line would be

18 okay with me.

19 If we're going to put them into a new

20 southern zone, we've created a new zone that

21 is not matching the IECC Zones 1 and 2. It is

22 some new client zone, then we would need to
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1 adjust the Uo values to incorporate, you know,

2 you would have to average in the fact that

3 we're taking a large chunk of IECC Zone 3 and

4 then average in those Uo values and come up

5 with a new Uo value for the new southern

6 region.

7 And otherwise we just agreed to a set

8 of values and if we start saying okay we like

9 these values but we're going to move all of

10 the states into somewhere else where they

11 weren't in the analysis, then we're coming up

12 with a new set of Uo values. So that would be

13 my only thing would be to be consistent.

14 If we're going to look more to a

15 region let's change the Uo accordingly.

16 MR. LUBLINER: This is Mike Lubliner.

17 MR. RAMIREZ: Mike, hold on one

18 second and let me get Rob in and then --

19 MR. LUBLINER: Sure. Absolutely.

20 MR. ROY: I think I am echoing what

21 Lowell said, at least part of it. I like this

22 map and I like the idea of trying to get along
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1 state lines where it helps. And I'm

2 particularly interested in the manufacturer's

3 views on their ability to, or the challenges

4 of making different product within a state and

5 how that's all managed.

6 I do note that in the -- And the Gulf

7 states are the ones that really stick out in

8 my thinking most of all. Because there is

9 such a difference Louisiana and the wonderful

10 climate there and upstate. Right? And across

11 the rest of those.

12 And you can see also that the

13 manufacturers are, I think, are already

14 dealing with differences within the Gulf

15 states already for the wind loads. Right? If

16 you look at the HUD wind maps, they have 1, 2

17 and 3 in each of those Gulf states. I mean

18 they're already dealing with different

19 product.

20 I'm not sure how difficult that

21 proves to be or what sort of issues. But it

22 raises at least the question of whether this
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1 is a particular challenge for them to manage

2 in a particular -- I'd love to hear the view

3 on it.

4 If it isn't such a big challenge I

5 think it makes sense to stick with something

6 that's closer to IECC just given that they

7 have such different weather characteristics.

8 MR. RAMIREZ: Let me get Michael and

9 then Mark.

10 MR. LUBLINER: Yes, Mike Lubliner

11 here. Yes, I kind of agree with what's been

12 said. I don't know if we should be

13 arbitrarily adjusting the climate zones based

14 on the fact it's different than what we just

15 did in the analysis.

16 And I would be interested in knowing

17 what the costs are, the basis of the cost

18 savings for the supportability index that is

19 justifying the change in the climate zone

20 here. So I'm concerned about that.

21 The large percentage of homes, some

22 of us have a value system that affordability
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1 and these entry-level home buyers should have

2 a more efficient home. We can agree to

3 disagree on that value. But I do think we

4 need some justification for moving these

5 technical justification, but it's a good

6 start.

7 MR. ROY: I think, Emanuel, I think

8 I can fill in here. I just looked at the R

9 numbers, these are pretty close to, I think,

10 what the costs are.

11 For single section home, if all those

12 states now in Zone 1 would be lifted up to

13 Zone 2 instead of in Zone 1, incremental cost

14 per single section home would be $2,751. And

15 for a multi-section home would be $3,975 in

16 cost increase. So it's somewhere around six

17 to seven percent increased cost.

18 MR. UNGAR: From Zone 1 to Zone 2?

19 MR. LEVY: To move, for example

20 Alabama and Mississippi into Zone 2 the

21 increase of cost over current construction,

22 current HUD construction, 28 percent, almost
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1 $4,000 for a multi-section.

2 MR. HAGERMAN: Yes, the question

3 would then be do you have to subtract what it

4 would cost to take the current HUD home from

5 where it is now and put it into the IECC

6 Climate Zone Number 1, and that differential

7 is the answer, right?

8 MR. LUBLINER: Yes, I'm tracking Joe. 

9 Mike Lubliner.

10 MR. LEVY: I'm sorry, Joe, what

11 differential? Between what?

12 MR. ROY: You have to, what we're

13 asking for is the price difference by moving

14 the current HUD code to IECC Climate Zone 3

15 minus moving a similar home from the current

16 HUD code to IECC Climate Zone 1 or 2, doesn't

17 really matter, what that differential in price

18 is. It's not, there's no way that it's as big

19 a number as what you just said. Right guys? 

20 I mean, right?

21 I mean somebody else do the math real

22 quick. Then we'll really know if it's an
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1 increase or a decrease. I mean we really

2 don't know if it's increase or decrease now,

3 right?

4 MR. UNGAR: Between 3 and 2?

5 MR. LACEY: I can quote those

6 numbers.

7 MR. LEVY: Well here's the numbers. 

8 I think what we were just asked is what is the

9 cost to move from .087 to .070? You know the

10 single and the double?

11 MR. MENDLEN: Yes.

12 MR. LEVY: Is that the question?

13 MR. HAGERMAN: Correct.

14 MR. LEVY: Okay. So the cost of

15 building a home in zone, in Alabama let's say,

16 single section home in Zone 1 on the new map

17 would $1,628 versus the $2,751 if you add the

18 zones for requirement. So the difference

19 between those two numbers is about $1,120.

20 So to move a single section home from

21 1 into 2 will cost an additional $1,123 for

22 total costs. And the total cost would be
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1 $2,751. Does that make sense?

2 MR. HAGERMAN: Yes. I think you can

3 get all those values by going to your Sheet 4,

4 right?

5 MR. LEVY: Correct. That's what I'm

6 working from.

7 MR. HAGERMAN: Okay. Great.

8 MR. RAMIREZ: I'm sorry. Right here,

9 Mark and then Keith. Keith?

10 MR. DENNIS: I have a question on

11 Zone 4 as well, but on Zone 1 I mean, you

12 know, I'd love to see people getting into

13 houses, new homes, in those states I think

14 from existing homes. Especially any policies

15 that we could get to get the old homes out.

16 And I think the lower the first cost

17 and the more incremental value we get in terms

18 of energy savings the better it's going to be

19 for state governments to help subsidize it.

20 So, you know, I like the map the way

21 it's drawn there, I think that that's a good

22 solution to affordability. And it gets us a
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1 long way everywhere else in the country and

2 there as well. I think it actually would be

3 more beneficial to have a lower cost product

4 there.

5 But in Zone 4 the question I have is

6 how big is that market and is it big enough

7 that people will build there or is it going to

8 cause any cost constraints? I don't know

9 because I, you know, I don't know the

10 manufacturing that much. But it seems like,

11 what's that North Dakota, you know, are they

12 going to be building special houses for just

13 North Dakota?

14 And then again I have a question

15 about, it looks like with Wisconsin, I mean

16 it's sort of like having two zones again. Is

17 it worth having that extra zone there to split

18 up a state. You know, it's another question. 

19 Or just to single out, you know, North Dakota,

20 which is kind of sad by itself.

21 So those are questions. I don't know

22 what the sales volume is in that area.
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1 MR. LEVY: Keith, I think I can fill

2 in -- This Emanuel. I think I can fill in

3 some details here.

4 Wisconsin had only 237 homes in all

5 of 2012. They had 306 in 2013. So there's

6 couple hundred homes in Wisconsin. North

7 Dakota had last year 775 homes. And Minnesota

8 had 437. So, you know, we're not talking

9 about big numbers here.

10 MR. DENNIS: Is it worth it? Is

11 there a balance, for manufacturers, is there

12 a balance between volume and having a whole

13 other standard? Or is there no bounds at all?

14 MR. WEISS: I think Keith raised a

15 valid issue. You might get in a situation

16 where just it's just it's not going to be

17 viable to for at least the small number of

18 homes going into that zone. Is there that

19 much of a difference between 59, 56, 51, 50?

20 MR. SCHNEIDER: This is Peter from

21 Vermont, I'll contribute the northeast to

22 Climate Zone 4.
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1 MR. WEISS: That's one home in the

2 peer pool?

3 MR. RAMIREZ: All right. Let's get

4 Lois and then Joe and then Lowell.

5 MS. STARKEY: I just -- On behalf of

6 the retailers and the rest of the industry,

7 aside from those who are sitting around this

8 table, and I think they would agree with me.

9 I think that this map is more marketable to

10 the industry in terms of trying to sell this. 

11 And I know that's, you know, but I think that

12 it does adequately address the affordability

13 issue.

14 With respect to the zones that we

15 agreed to and the U values on the IECC I

16 thought we were, I guess I voted for that

17 because I said this is a true reflection of

18 the U values in those IECC zones. But it

19 didn't have any really impact on, I wasn't

20 voting to say that I'm going to put those,

21 that those zones have to be reflected in a new

22 map necessarily.
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1 Because I think we do need to take

2 into consideration other issues. And I think

3 when you talk about a 27 percent increase in

4 those states where for the most part I'd like

5 to see who's adopted the IECC in those states.

6 Because I would suspect that the

7 manufactured housing industry will be building

8 to the highest energy efficiency code, for the

9 most part, across the board. Because I think

10 the last time I looked at the map for IECC

11 that part of the country is behind, woefully

12 behind, in terms of energy efficiency for the

13 residential market.

14 So I think it's a start. This makes

15 sense. Yes, and you can correct me if I'm

16 wrong. Yes, because I haven't looked at the

17 map since last year, but anyways I think this

18 is a good start. And that we should keep the

19 map the way it is.

20 MR. RAMIREZ: Let me get Joe, Mark

21 then Eric.

22 MR. HAGERMAN: Yes, I'm just still
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1 struggling with this, the move of the southern

2 states to the .087, .084. And when I look at,

3 Emanuel, your page 4 it looks like it costs

4 $2,000 to meet a .085. And it looks like it

5 costs $1,900.24 to reach a point .067.

6 So I think actually that move right

7 there looks like it's costing the unit more

8 and then they're not getting the savings. 

9 Right?

10 MR. UNGAR: Those are different. 

11 Aren't those different HUD baselines?

12 MR. HAGERMAN: Oh I don't know that. 

13 I mean, I don't know, aren't they already in

14 HUD Zone 2? I mean there's a lot of baselines

15 moving here.

16 MR. UNGAR: They'd be HUD.

17 MR. LUBLINER: This is Mike Lubliner. 

18 I'm kind of tracking where Joe's going with

19 the cost accounting. But I'd also like to

20 look at the savings amounts by this proposal

21 of the life cycle cost savings. I kind of

22 feel like we did make some attritions when
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1 addressing affordability with using the

2 10-year analysis and also looking at a dual

3 single-wide and double-wide EOO.

4 So I'm not sure why we're making a

5 third concession. I would like to see what

6 the energy savings we're giving up is. Thank

7 you.

8 MR. HAGERMAN: Yes, I think, I mean

9 we might be flipping that from a negative

10 number, I mean from a black number to a red

11 number by making the change. So you're

12 actually not addressing affordability. You're

13 doing the opposite.

14 MR. LUBLINER: Yes, I wouldn't want

15 to do that either.

16 PARTICIPANT: Double count

17 affordability.

18 MR. HAGERMAN: Yes, that's like, yes,

19 this is a good point. We don't want to

20 double count our affordability here. Right?

21 MR. RAMIREZ: All right. Let me do

22 Mark, Eric and then Lois.
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1 PARTICIPANT: Try again.

2 MR. RAMIREZ: Mark.

3 MR. WEISS: Just to say again, you

4 know, I hear all the discussion. I mean this

5 is something I don't know, unfortunately I

6 don't have any members here participating in

7 the committee, these are all things I'm going

8 to have to see about with our folks and get

9 their input on. I don't feel comfortable

10 going out on a limb making statements without

11 hearing their direct input.

12 MR. DENNIS: Is there a way to track

13 down what number is right? Because we heard

14 $1,100 more expensive, now you're saying $500

15 --

16 MR. HAGERMAN: It's $75 cheaper.

17 MR. DENNIS: So I don't know, which

18 one do we trust here? I don't, you know.

19 MR. HAGERMAN: I usually trust

20 myself.

21 MR. DENNIS: But you work for DOE so

22 we can't trust you.
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1 (Simultaneous speaking.)

2 MR. HAGERMAN: I agree with you. 

3 Before we really vote on this I think we've

4 got to do some more numbers if you're going to

5 make a substantial change in drawing these

6 zones. Because that change goes against

7 everything else that we've been talking about.

8 Right?

9 MR. RAMIREZ: Who's on the line?

10 MR. LEVY: This is Emanuel.

11 MR. RAMIREZ: Go ahead, Emanuel, then

12 we'll get Mark.

13 MR. LEVY: I just wanted to clarify

14 what we're talking about here. Those states,

15 Louisiana, Alabama, Mississippi, Georgia,

16 South Carolina, are currently all in HUD Zone

17 1. That's an .116 Uo value. We're talking

18 about taking those down to .087, .084, right. 

19 So there's obviously an incremental cost to

20 get there.

21 And then the question you were asking

22 me is an if we take it down further to .070,
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1 .060, is that jump cost effective? Is that

2 the question you're asking? Because there's

3 barely any cost to get here.

4 MR. DENNIS: Yes, maybe you just

5 answered it. On Page 4 you list HUD Zone 1,

6 IECC Zone 2, is $2,000. And the same unit HUD

7 Zone 1, IECC Zone 3 is $2,700. So maybe the

8 difference is just $700. I think that sounds

9 correct.

10 MR. LEVY: And what's the life cycle

11 savings?

12 MR. RAMIREZ: We'd have to pull that

13 up.

14 MR. DENNIS: Well the savings are

15 going to be less because they're further north

16 too.

17 MR. HAGERMAN: The question is is the

18 $750, you know, cost effective over the

19 10-year term? That's the only question.

20 MR. RAMIREZ: Let me --

21 MR. DENNIS: It would less cost

22 effective than somebody in say southern
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1 Florida, where that's what that zone's

2 designed for. Right? The warmer the climate

3 the more --

4 MR. HAGERMAN: Yes I mean, you also

5 have the late zones too, and it's just

6 complicated.

7 MR. DENNIS: Complicated. Okay.

8 MR. RAMIREZ: Let me ask the group

9 this. So it really seems like the sticking

10 point on this math is what Ted has outlined

11 over here, those areas right there. Is that

12 fair to say?

13 MR. HAGERMAN: Those two zones? The

14 Number 4 and Number 1?

15 MR. RAMIREZ: What was highlighted. 

16 No, I don't think so much for 4, but Zone 1 is

17 highlighted. Is that the major sticking

18 point? Because I mean with the number of

19 houses that are sold up in 4 up there I think

20 that that could easily be resolved one way or

21 another. Right? I'm not viewing that as too

22 big of an issue.
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1 What I'm hearing though is that there

2 may be some concerns down there in 1. And is

3 there a way, if we're talking about

4 affordability concerns, and that would also

5 kind of going to the heart of some of the

6 discussion that we were having with the Uo

7 values earlier, is there a combination of

8 those two that can make both of issues

9 acceptable to get a result? Do you understand

10 what I'm asking?

11 In other words, a combination of, you

12 know, like David had said, if we're going to

13 go for one single number why don't we make it

14 the lower number. I'm sorry, the higher

15 number. Make it the higher number.

16 And if that's the case, does that

17 help with affordability issues if all these

18 Zone 1s that's circled are now under Zone 2. 

19 Right? But with the higher numbers that David

20 was talking about. Or some combination of

21 that to make those two issues fall into line.

22 MR. DENNIS: You know, we are just a
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1 bunch of people in a room, but you know I

2 think we should think very hard about whether

3 we're going to have somebody spend $750 on a

4 house and if it is really cost effective. Or

5 is this just some kind of thing that we're

6 looking at a map and doing it?

7 I mean this is a big thing for

8 people. And are we saving that much energy? 

9 And, you know, is it really worth it to affect

10 these people's lives. So I don't know that,

11 I don't feel comfortable asking somebody to

12 spend $750 on the information that we have. 

13 That I have.

14 MR. HAGERMAN: Well just real quick,

15 the flip side of the argument is also true. 

16 I mean you're going to ask somebody to spend,

17 you know, the $2,000 to get to the .087 and

18 you don't know if that's cost effective or

19 not.

20 MR. DENNIS: I know. I'm not

21 comfortable with any of this.

22 PARTICIPANT: That's what he's
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1 saying.

2 MR. DENNIS: But I think that if

3 we're doing the common sense thing, we're

4 talking about plugging holes in floors and

5 putting insulation in, you know, and we're

6 doing as good as we can, when we have a

7 decision like this, you know, it's kind of,

8 especially in a place where affordability is

9 the biggest issue and it could be the

10 difference between getting people in a house

11 or not.

12 You know, I think we should tend to

13 err on being very cautious about us deciding

14 $750 for the lowest income people buying a

15 house. I mean, there's other places to save

16 energy.

17 MR. HAGERMAN: But you don't know if

18 this is cautious.

19 MR. DENNIS: That's part of the

20 point.

21 MR. HAGERMAN: This could actually be

22 more --
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1 MR. DENNIS: It's not cautious

2 because we don't know. I mean, that's the

3 point. If we knew, you know, you were saying

4 it's going to save them $45 just on the first

5 cost and we were sure of that I'd say, you

6 know, we don't have to be cautious about that.

7 We're saying, you know, there's a lot

8 of unknowns here, it's a big decision. You

9 know, it's kind of like we're just throwing it

10 around. It's like what mood are we in, who do

11 we like in the room, stuff like that. Which

12 is not how we should be making decisions about

13 things that can affect people's lives.

14 So, you know, I understand that

15 numbers on a piece of paper, you can get the

16 numbers a little bit better but think hard

17 about what you're doing here.

18 MR. LUBLINER: This is Mike Lubliner.

19 MR. RAMIREZ: Hold on a second, Mike. 

20 Let's get Eric, Lois and then --

21 MR. LACEY: Mike can go first, that's

22 fine.
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1 MS. STARKEY: Yes, I'd like to say,

2 I mean we need to think too about what the

3 market, the state of the industry, the market

4 that we work in. We work with retailers who

5 this is going to be a learning curve for them. 

6 I just feel like we ought to, unless it's just

7 going to be a huge, maybe we need to get some

8 more numbers up there.

9 MR. RAMIREZ: All right. Let's get

10 Michael then Eric.

11 MR. LUBLINER: Yes, so I think we're

12 going by two different rules here. I thought

13 what we were doing is coming up with lowest

14 life cycle cost and then assessing the

15 affordability index.

16 And we had done that by going with a

17 10-year analysis and we went further again by

18 suggesting maybe we have dual paths for the

19 single wide, which is really the

20 affordability.

21 To hook up a double-wide costs way

22 more than $700. So we should just focus on
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1 single wides possibly in this area.

2 But also I want to point out that

3 this is not just about cost effectiveness to

4 the entry, marginal credit score customer. 

5 It's also about this is the largest production

6 area in the country with the most amount of

7 coal, fire and power plants.

8 And other benefits in national

9 security and climate change and we shouldn't

10 be throwing this out without a very good look

11 at this because this makes a big difference in

12 the number of power plants and peak load

13 issues and those plants are considerations.

14 If we're just going to focus on just

15 this small affordability index and go beyond

16 what we've already talked about to address it

17 then we need to think about the other

18 ramifications like the environmental

19 externality such as climate change and energy

20 sustainability and energy independence.

21 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. Let's go to Eric

22 Barbour and then David.
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1 MR. LACEY: This is Eric from RECA. 

2 You know we're talking about affordability. 

3 We had already kind of decided, even though a

4 lot of us disagreed with some of the

5 assumptions and I thought some of the

6 assumptions were far too conservative, I

7 thought we all kind of decided on what was

8 cost effective and what was affordable. You

9 know, based on the 10-year and the 30-year

10 split.

11 Even though nobody was perfectly

12 happy with it, you know, we kind of came to a

13 compromise on that. And to jump off into a

14 new area like this where we're saying we're

15 going to apply yet another measure of

16 affordability here, without anything really to

17 back it, is concerning to me.

18 Now I'm not suggesting that we should

19 PNNL off and Navigant off to do affordability

20 for these four states, an additional analysis. 

21 But I think we could be here forever trying

22 that out for every single state and every
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1 locality.

2 I thought we were fairly close on

3 this and I think it makes sense to stick with

4 the IECC zones. But I hate to take kind of a

5 broad brush and say well this will make it

6 more affordable without knowing that.

7 It just seems like a really big leap

8 based on the level of detail with which we've

9 attacked the affordability and life cycle cost

10 effectiveness issues for the last two and a

11 half months.

12 MR. RAMIREZ: Let me get Mark and --

13 MR. LUBLINER: This is Mike --

14 MR. RAMIREZ: I'm sorry, who wants to

15 speak on the line?

16 MR. SANTANA: Manny.

17 MR. RAMIREZ: Let me get Mark and

18 then David then you.

19 MR. SANTANA: All right.

20 MR. WEISS: That's okay. He can go

21 ahead.

22 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. David then
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1 Michael.

2 MR. SANTANA: Manny.

3 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay.

4 MR. TOMPOS: I don't really feel like

5 we're negotiating here. But I think we need

6 to have Lubliner go off and create a

7 subcommittee to prove to me that the

8 manufactured housing industry is creating

9 global warming. I think that would be good

10 for his time.

11 Again, affordability is not, I do not

12 agree that affordability is the 10-year return

13 on energy efficiency. It goes back to first

14 cost and that's all we're trying to do here is

15 get a little bit of reduced first costs.

16 And I think it's pointless to sit in

17 here a whole lot longer because all we keep

18 going through is well, IECC, let's just do

19 exactly what that says and we'll just deal

20 with ramifications of whether or not people

21 can afford these houses later. That's how I

22 feel right now.
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1 MR. WEISS: I'll reclaim my time. 

2 You know, I have the privilege of looking at

3 these production numbers every month as they

4 come out. And really the very best of the

5 industry is from here over here. You agree on

6 that?

7 And this is where the production is. 

8 This is where the shipments are. I mean, you

9 have substantial number in California. But I

10 mean the southeast quadrant of the country is

11 where we're talking about.

12 We're not talking about another

13 metric of affordability, we just want to nail

14 down the numbers. Okay? And make sure that

15 what we're talking about is accurate. I don't

16 know if I agree with any of this. But I know

17 that we need accurate numbers.

18 And I'd like to thank Keith because

19 what he was saying goes back to what I said I

20 think the first day we were here, which is

21 that this is not some dry, technical exercise. 

22 We're dealing with people's lives here and we
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1 need to be constantly aware of that.

2 MR. RAMIREZ: Michael then Manny.

3 MR. WEISS: All right. Now something

4 that I don't think a lot of people in the room

5 know is that this is not necessarily a level

6 playing field in regards to energy.

7 And by saying that what I mean is,

8 you know, we're kind of comparing ourselves,

9 or trying to, to the stick built industry and

10 to the modular industry. And even though it

11 was mentioned earlier today, I don't know if

12 everybody caught it, but most of the states

13 don't automatically accept the latest versions

14 of the code.

15 Just to give you guys an example,

16 down there in that region, that southern

17 region right now that's creating so much

18 excitement, the state of Alabama is currently

19 using the 2009 IECC. The state of Georgia is

20 using the 2009. The state of Mississippi is

21 using the 2006. And the state of Texas is

22 using the 2009.
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1 So if you go in and look at the 2009

2 IECC the requirements are in that zone, Region

3 3, is R30 for the roof, R13 for the wall and

4 R19 for the floor.

5 So if we go back and look at Page 5

6 of Emanuel's proposal earlier that we pretty

7 much accepted, it also shows R30 in the roof,

8 R19 in the floor. And actually R21 in the

9 walls. So in essence if we accept that we are

10 going to be building the most energy efficient

11 homes in that southern region. And I think

12 that means something.

13 MR. UNGAR: Sorry, can I clarify

14 something. I think we would all be, the way

15 you just read it if I understand it, are for

16 the IECC Zone 3.

17 MR. WEISS: That's correct.

18 MR. UNGAR: And I think we'd be happy

19 if those states were under those, you know,

20 that would be perfectly acceptable to us. 

21 That way we, at least, I should speak for

22 myself. I would be happy to go with those
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1 values for those states.

2 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes. I don't know if

3 that was, is that accurate then? The numbers

4 that Michael Wade was using?

5 MR. WEISS: Those numbers aren't

6 quoted on what the mod builders are using. I

7 pulled those off NTA's website just a few

8 moments ago.

9 PARTICIPANT: Must be right.

10 MR. RAMIREZ: R30 for the ceiling, 21

11 for the wall and 19 for the floor.

12 MR. WEISS: It's 13 for the walls, 13

13 for the walls, is what's in the 2009 IECC.

14 MR. WEISS: I'm sorry, that's not

15 what you said the first time.

16 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. Let me get Manny

17 and then Eric.

18 MR. SANTANA: Yes, Manny with Cavco

19 here. You know I'd like to echo what Keith

20 said. I think Keith's comments were spot on. 

21 I agree with everything he said.

22 And, you know, I think when we use
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1 the word affordability we don't just mean

2 first cost to the home buyer and we don't just

3 mean life cycle costs, be it 10 or 30 year

4 increments. It's got to be a combination of

5 both.

6 And I think the compromise that was

7 on the screen is a good one because, you know,

8 another thing I'd like to add is that unlike

9 the HUD code that had an energy update and

10 then they didn't update it for decades, you

11 know, I don't think that's going to be the

12 case with DOE.

13 You know, this thing is going to be

14 a drastic change to get from what that region

15 currently builds to these levels here. And

16 it's going to be much harder to increase the

17 U zone if we see that it has a devastating

18 effect. It's going to be much harder to do

19 that than it will be to, I guess, go into it

20 with a tiered kind of approach.

21 If you go into it with these zones,

22 with these values, and see what happens to the
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1 industry. See what happens to the product. 

2 You know, evaluate it.

3 We need to evaluate it because we

4 could run all the analysis that we want but

5 these are all based on assumptions, you know,

6 our best guess assumptions. You know, our

7 swagged assumptions that none of us know

8 what's going to happen.

9 I think that this approach is going

10 to let us evaluate it and if we see that there

11 are no issues and that we can tighten it up

12 even more, you know, in three years have at it

13 again. But, you know, go into it with as much

14 as you can get right out of the gate. I think

15 that approach is flawed.

16 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. Eric.

17 MR. LEVY: It's Emanuel. Could I add

18 a comment?

19 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, go ahead, Emanuel.

20 MR. LEVY: I just want to kind of

21 bring us back to what we do now which is that

22 for those states that we're debating right now
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1 the cost increase for the single-section home

2 is going to be $2,000 to just get into what is

3 shown on the screen, old Zone 1 to the new

4 Zone 1.

5 If we then said they had to meet Zone

6 2 requirements, it would add an additional

7 $750 to $800 depending on whether it's a

8 single- or multi-section and that represents

9 about a 40-some-odd, 41, 42 percent increase.

10 What we'd be saying in effect is that

11 if we move those states into Zone 2, the least

12 expensive market would be responsible for the

13 biggest leap in efficiency in the entire

14 country.

15 So we're putting the greatest burden

16 on the people who can less, first cost burden

17 on the people who can least afford the

18 increase in cost.

19 What we really ought to be looking at

20 since the life cycle cost did not look at any

21 locations in any of these states, we probably

22 should take a place like Birmingham, Alabama,
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1 and look to see whether the jump from 0.084 to

2 0.068 is cost effective. That's what I think

3 we're talking about here. As the tire meets

4 the road.

5 MR. ROY: It's Robin. I concur with

6 that. It'd be lovely to take a look at

7 Birmingham, see if it's cost effective.

8 MS. HOFFMAN: Right.

9 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. Eric.

10 MR. HAGERMAN: Hold on. Before we

11 move off that point, it says Birmingham single

12 section from a 0.087 to a 0.070 and a double

13 section from --

14 MR. DENNIS: Confirming that from

15 Charleston, South Carolina too.

16 MR. HAGERMAN: I don't know, to be

17 honest with you I don't know what cities they

18 have the weather files for so I'll get as

19 close as I can, all right? I mean, that's all

20 I can do, right? Because they have really

21 detailed weather files for some of these

22 cities. But Birmingham and you said --
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1 MS. HOFFMAN: Charleston.

2 MR. HAGERMAN: Charleston.

3 MR. DENNIS: Somewhere in South

4 Carolina.

5 MR. HAGERMAN: Okay. Somewhere in

6 South --

7 MR. DENNIS: They are varied.

8 MR. HAGERMAN: Okay. All right.

9 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay, Eric.

10 MR. HAGERMAN: You're not getting

11 that today, though. Sorry.

12 MR. LACEY: So I gather this

13 conversation is going to have to continue. I

14 just wanted to speak to one thing because it's

15 come up twice now and it's something that we

16 deal with on a daily basis and that is the

17 state adoption of building energy codes.

18 My organization's mission is to

19 promote the adoption of the most recent

20 edition of the IECC.

21 And you are correct that it's a bit

22 of a patchwork around the country but I want
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1 to caution us not to start setting this

2 standard based on the local rates of adoption

3 because I point to California's Title 24 or

4 Oregon or Washington's versions of the IECC

5 and they are going to far exceed the

6 efficiency of this code. Florida also.

7 And so, you know, I get that. I

8 understand that. I wish every state had

9 already adopted the 2015 IECC but, you know,

10 Congress gave DOE a charge here and I think,

11 you know, I think we found that it was cost

12 effective, at least the mix of components and

13 requirements that we put together was cost

14 effective, at least in my opinion it looks

15 cost effective, and we had to go forward with

16 that.

17 I totally hear the issue. I wish the

18 state of Mississippi by its constitution could

19 require a state-wide residential energy code

20 but they cannot and so, you know.

21 Fortunately HUD can regulate some of

22 these things and if it is cost effective, you
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1 know, we should move forward with it. Anyway,

2 just needed to speak to that because I don't

3 want to get derailed by this where I talk all

4 day about all 50 states.

5 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay, but you won't. 

6 Okay.

7 MR. LACEY: I won't.

8 MS. STARKEY: But I just want to say,

9 you know, I think that, you know, have we

10 really, really had the debate about what's

11 cost effective?

12 Yes, we agreed on the ten-year

13 residual but we really didn't get to some of

14 these issues that I think Emanuel addressed

15 pretty clearly in terms of what that really

16 means, and Manny, what that means in terms of

17 from where we're going now.

18 I think that we, my opinion is we

19 really didn't have a debate about that and so,

20 you know, we just said okay, well, ten years

21 is better than 30, you know.

22 But, you know, what is the return on
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1 investment, you know? Okay, we said ten

2 years, the average time a manufactured home

3 owner stays in their home. I don't know. 

4 Yes.

5 MALE PARTICIPANT: All right, so one

6 more --

7 MR. RAMIREZ: Let me jump in because

8 it seems like in order for us to finalize some

9 discussion on here we're going to have to get

10 an idea of what the true cost and -- We have

11 an idea of the cost, was that $740, but what's

12 in question is the savings difference in that

13 area there.

14 And I think we need some of that

15 information in order to finalize a discussion. 

16 I think that's kind of going to Keith's point. 

17 Let's not go by conventional wisdom. Let's

18 looks at some data. Let's figure out what

19 we're really dealing with, right?

20 How do you all feel about tabling

21 this discussion till we get some additional

22 information, then we can continue it in
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1 Denver? Want to go with that?

2 MR. SANTANA: Are we able to

3 establish -- Cavco here. What about getting

4 a gauge of thumbs and see where we're at?

5 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay. How would you

6 phrase that about where we're -- Where do you

7 think we're at, Manny?

8 MR. SANTANA: Well, on the proposed

9 map, the amended and proposed map that's on

10 the screen.

11 MS. HOFFMAN: Oh, okay.

12 MR. RAMIREZ: Want to see if this is

13 acceptable?

14 MR. SANTANA: Yes.

15 MR. UNGAR: With the Uo values.

16 MR. RAMIREZ: With these Uo? With

17 the two values?

18 MR. SANTANA: Well, the two values

19 have already been addressed. I thought we

20 voted to accept the two values.

21 MR. RAMIREZ: We did but there was

22 some question as far as, because they had two
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1 consensus votes. The two-value one was

2 stronger than the single one but I don't know

3 if it was completely locked in because of that

4 but --

5 MR. SANTANA: Okay. Well, you know,

6 the reason for the request is, you know, when

7 we do a thumb vote, we get, well, one, you

8 identify who is a down thumb vote and, two,

9 they get a chance to, you know, express why

10 they have such a strong opinion.

11 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, okay. Keith, did

12 you have something?

13 MR. DENNIS: Yes, I mean, I don't

14 know if this will help because it looks like

15 people are saying, but maybe if we said don't

16 pay attention to either the two or the average

17 Uo values because that's a separate issue that

18 we have already something so somebody doesn't

19 want to vote against this just because we

20 don't know if it's going to be with two values

21 versus the average value.

22 MR. RAMIREZ: So you're talking about
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1 just the lines.

2 MR. DENNIS: Just the lines. And

3 then I would also ask if we could just --

4 MS. HOFFMAN: The zones.

5 MR. DENNIS: -- maybe forget about

6 Zone 4 for now because we haven't really

7 talked about that.

8 MR. RAMIREZ: So the question is --

9 MR. DENNIS: That Zone 1 --

10 MR. RAMIREZ: 1, 2 and 3 accepted --

11 MR. DENNIS: Right.

12 MR. RAMIREZ: -- as on Emanuel's map. 

13 Lowell.

14 MR. UNGAR: Two things. One is I

15 said before I can accept Zone 1 if the Uo

16 values are proportionally representative of

17 the various IECC code zones that are included

18 in it, right?

19 And I don't know how that's going to

20 turn out but Joe had already proposed looking

21 at census data to say where are the zones and

22 then one could do an average, come up with an
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1 average Uo value that is going to be

2 somewhere, it will be much more than 0.07 but

3 will be less than 0.087.

4 The other thing, it's relatively

5 small but we haven't really talked about this

6 small part of Zone 1 that's in Arizona and I

7 have the same concern that people talked about

8 for having a Zone 4, that there's just not

9 enough homes.

10 Unless people are shipping from Texas

11 all the way to Arizona, I suspect there aren't

12 that many homes in that small little piece of

13 Arizona and whether it makes sense to have a

14 different climate zone for that small --

15 MR. DENNIS: It's not analogous

16 because it's not a limiting factor.

17 MR. UNGAR: What?

18 MR. DENNIS: It's not a constraint. 

19 It's not a constraint like it is --

20 MR. UNGAR: Oh, they could use the

21 higher. That's true. You could use a higher

22 one.
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1 MR. WEISS: That's where Manny lives.

2 (Laughter)

3 (Simultaneous speaking)

4 MR. WEISS: Yes, you got potentially

5 a significant population there. I don't know

6 if that goes as far as Tucson but I mean,

7 that's --

8 (Simultaneous speaking)

9 MALE PARTICIPANT: It's hard to tell

10 from this map, but.

11 MR. SANTANA: You know, the climate

12 in Tucson is very representative of the

13 climate in that part of Arizona so, you know,

14 there are homes that go across the state but

15 the population centers are concentrated in

16 that area there, you know, and it is

17 consistent with the IECC.

18 MR. LEVY: I'll also interject that

19 Arizona had about 1,700 shipments last year,

20 about the same, for Mike Lubliner's benefit,

21 of the entire Northwest.

22 (Simultaneous speaking)
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1 MR. UNGAR: Looking at the data I

2 have for Arizona for August 2013 through July

3 2014, it's 1,136. It's not that far different

4 from your number.

5 MR. LUBLINER: The only difference is

6 that 60 percent of the homes in the Northwest

7 are Energy Star and I don't think that's the

8 case down there. So the market's already

9 recognizing the value added of total

10 affordable housing and it hasn't achieved that

11 yet in Arizona in this industry.

12 MS. HOFFMAN: We have a request from

13 Manny to get kind of a showing of how you feel

14 about the map with an amendment not to involve

15 Zone 4 at the moment but to look at it as it

16 is and also not to, at this moment, look at

17 the single- and multi-segment values.

18 MS. DICKENS: Could I please ask a

19 question?

20 MR. RAMIREZ: Go ahead, Ishbel.

21 MS. DICKENS: This is Ishbel from

22 NMHOA. Just want to ask Keith, we're going to
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1 vote on the map without the values. Why we're

2 excluding Zone 4 because the buildings we

3 agree that the other boundaries work for us.

4 What does that mean for Zone 4,

5 because it's still going to be that little

6 separate piece up there. So I'm just curious

7 why you would like that excluded from this

8 particular vote. Thank you.

9 MR. DENNIS: Well, I mean, it doesn't

10 really, I mean, I would just like, I think

11 it's a much less contentious issue and I'd

12 like to discuss it later but, you know, I'm

13 not, I think it would be, just the issue at

14 hand is Zone 1 and Zone 2. I think we could

15 look at Zone 4 and see if anyone cares

16 separately.

17 I'd like to talk to my members in

18 Minnesota, Great River Energy specifically,

19 just to see if that's going to be a problem

20 for them.

21 And also I'd like to know if the

22 manufacturers think that that would be an
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1 issue with building a whole new code just for,

2 you know, a couple, I don't know, a hundred or

3 thousand units.

4 So I just thought it was a separate

5 issue. If we don't want to do it that way,

6 that's fine. But I think this issue's much

7 more important so it would be good to just

8 distill the issues one at a time.

9 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay.

10 MR. EZZO: It's Mark Ezzo. Can I

11 make a comment?

12 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, go ahead, Mark.

13 MR. EZZO: Manny, I'd like to just

14 revise your vote recommendation slightly in

15 that we vote on the map as it looks right now

16 including Zone 4 and including the Uo numbers.

17 I mean, these numbers represent a

18 huge energy efficiency leap from where we're

19 at today and I think Emanuel gave those

20 numbers out in percentages and they ranged

21 from I think high 20s to 40 percent over where

22 we're at today.
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1 And then in addition to that, we, you

2 know, we've heard that these numbers also

3 represent a level that's above the majority of

4 the country's current modular and site-built

5 housing.

6 So I think we've made some pretty big

7 strides here with this map as it is and I'm

8 just afraid if we vote on something and leave

9 out the Uo numbers or strike a zone, you could

10 dissect this thing to death forever and we'll

11 never get anywhere.

12 So my suggestion, Manny, would be

13 let's vote on it the way it looks as is with

14 the Uo numbers and including Zone 4. Thanks.

15 MR. DENNIS: It was actually Keith. 

16 I'll withdraw my request then. That's fine if

17 that's what people want to do.

18 MR. HAGERMAN: I just did the numbers

19 and in the four states that we're kind of

20 talking about here, South Carolina, Georgia,

21 Alabama, Mississippi and Louisiana, by the HUD

22 shipments in 2013 that makes up 20 percent of
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1 the total population of units shipped so it

2 would affect a large portion of you.

3 So, I mean, to be honest with you, I

4 don't think I have enough data to vote so I'm

5 going to vote negative if we vote on this now

6 because I need to see the data, right?

7 MR. RAMIREZ: Let me get Mark --

8 MR. HAGERMAN: But that's just my --

9 MR. RAMIREZ: Let me get Mark and

10 Robin.

11 MR. WEISS: Yes, I think that's

12 really what this comes down to. I mean, I'd

13 have to vote no just on being derivative with

14 the cost information that we've been talking

15 about.

16 But even if it weren't, again, I

17 don't know what my members would think of

18 this. It's something we'd have to consult on

19 and at this point we don't have data that Joe

20 considers reliable. It's, I mean, I can

21 consult with him generally on it but to get

22 beyond that it's difficult.
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1 So, you know, I don't think this is

2 something you can rush. I mean, this whole

3 issue has been kicking around a long time. I

4 just don't think we should be rushing it here,

5 particularly when you're dealing with such a

6 large population of potential home owners.

7 MR. RAMIREZ: Robin.

8 MR. LUBLINER: This is Mike Lubliner.

9 MR. RAMIREZ: Hold on a second, Mike. 

10 Let's get Robin, then you.

11 MR. ROY: You all know I hate voting

12 no on something. I very rarely do it, but on

13 this I would have to vote no and I'd rather

14 not but I'd have to for a couple reasons.

15 One, I am very keen to see what the

16 analysis shows for these couple of cities. I

17 think it's meaningful and I would like to have

18 consideration of that and I'd hate to say no

19 or have to vote on it before seeing that.

20 The second bit, I understand the

21 expedience and trying to move on, but this is

22 fairly weighty part.
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1 The second piece is we are going to

2 lock in for basically the rest of time a

3 definition of zones by what we do here. It

4 would be really interesting to see if there

5 is, in fact, a reason to have a different

6 climate zone map than this one that follows

7 these states lines this particular way. That,

8 again, will be informed by the analysis.

9 I just cannot help but think back to

10 the decision made 47 years ago that put Las

11 Vegas and Tidewater, Virginia and Duluth all

12 in the same zone. It was unfortunate then.

13 We would be locking ourselves into

14 something based on not having got back pretty

15 interesting, quick information that we can get

16 from Joe and his team.

17 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay, Lois. I'm sorry. 

18 Michael, then Lois.

19 MR. LUBLINER: I agree with Robin. 

20 I'd like to get to a consensus here and I need

21 to see some more data for these particular

22 areas. I'm uncomfortable arbitrarily shifting
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1 the bar.

2 We have been talking about

3 uncertainty and I think everything we've done

4 in the calculations and the effort to

5 determine affordability is the best data we

6 have and so it's the reduced uncertainty that

7 we're able to make with the cards we're dealt.

8 So now we're adjusting the climate

9 zones here based on even more uncertainty and

10 so I think it's prudent that we wait until we

11 see exactly what the cost effectiveness for

12 these areas.

13 And I would encourage you when you do

14 this to do the multivariant crystal ball

15 analysis because I think what you're going to

16 find is that there is some other factors that

17 are weighing in here that might impact that

18 Uo. But clearly I think we need to get those

19 numbers and see what's going on.

20 As far as Climate Zone 4 goes, my

21 experience in the Northwest, and we shared

22 this research with the group based on Tom
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1 Eckman's published, peer-reviewed research. 

2 Peer reviewed means it can be cited in a court

3 of law.

4 And what its experience was, was that

5 when you offer a better product, a more

6 efficient product with better windows, in this

7 case it would require foam sheeting on the

8 walls I believe or a tilt-up roof truss,

9 you're going to find that you might lose a

10 little bit of the entry-level, single-wide

11 market, you know, the marginal credit scores,

12 but you are going to grow significantly by

13 offering a product that they go, hey, I didn't

14 know you could get a manufactured home like

15 this.

16 So I think the federal government

17 needs to lead by example and if this is a

18 preemptive national code then it should be the

19 best in the country and it shouldn't cater to

20 the worst that a state energy code is

21 promulgating. It should be an example for all

22 states.
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1 And I have concern that the

2 preemptive nature of this code needs

3 leadership at DOE and looking at affordability

4 but other environmental factors besides

5 affordability that also take place and that

6 would include increased profits to the

7 manufacturers by offering a higher efficiency

8 product that increases sales at the upper end

9 of their market. Thank you.

10 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. Lois, did you

11 have something?

12 MS. STARKEY: Maybe could we, because

13 based on what Robin said I'm hearing that

14 maybe we're not even in agreement on trying to

15 go by states, that it looks like maybe we need

16 to, I mean, is that where you're going?

17 MR. ROY: I can clarify that. I

18 mean, I was curious. I looked at the wind

19 map, for example. I'm curious to see what

20 your members and, Mark, your members, how you

21 deal with that and whether -- I want to

22 understand what kind of burden it places.
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1 I understand the preference for

2 having simpler. I get that. It makes perfect

3 sense to me, but if there's a substantial

4 difference between the Gulf Coast and inland

5 in these states maybe it is worth doing. The

6 question is balancing that with the burden.

7 And I'm curious, how do the

8 manufacturers and the retailers deal with the

9 wind differences? Those are real. They have

10 to do something already that's splitting up

11 these states. The wind maps are splitting

12 these states into three pieces in some cases.

13 I'm not saying I want to do that but

14 before we say, no, no, let's not do that,

15 let's understand what it is, both in terms of

16 what we gain and what the burden is.

17 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay, so either way I'm

18 hearing that there is substantial concern,

19 that we needed some more data before we gauge

20 the level of consensus on this one.

21 And even so, properly gauging the

22 level of consensus, and that's what I'm
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1 hearing that you're asking for, I think it

2 might be better off waiting till we get the

3 data and then take a more solid vote after we

4 have some discussion what the actual data is. 

5 Everyone comfortable with that?

6 MR. LUTER: This is Rob at Lippert. 

7 Exactly what data are we after? Have we been

8 able to define what we need to be able to

9 intelligently make a decision?

10 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes.

11 MR. ROY: Rob, I'll tell you what I'm

12 looking for. This is Robin again. What I

13 would love to see is the cost effectiveness

14 analysis for a couple of those states in this

15 area, the cities in this area in question. 

16 You know, it's not definitive but it's quite

17 informative.

18 MR. DENNIS: Yes, and my

19 understanding, just so I can make sure that

20 I'm correct, that there's about a $750 swing

21 in the cost of housing to these four states,

22 five states and we'd like to see if the
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1 payback over ten years would equal or exceed

2 that $750.

3 MR. LUTER: Okay. No.

4 MR. DENNIS: Right?

5 MR. LUTER: Rob again. I think I

6 overheard Joe say that he didn't feel that we

7 had reliable data. Was that Joe Hagerman that

8 made that statement?

9 MR. HAGERMAN: So I was just

10 commenting on the cost data from Emanuel's

11 table. If you look at --

12 MR. LUTER: Okay. How do we convert

13 that to reliable data?

14 MR. HAGERMAN: Well, I think we just

15 have to work with Emanuel to understand, to

16 make sure that we are comparing apples to

17 apples here, so we just need to go through

18 these costs. So the cost data, what I was

19 talking about.

20 But just to clarify something. I

21 just sent the assignment to PNNL. They're

22 going to run a couple different cities in the
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1 states and then they're going to work with

2 Matthew to put those energy consumption odds

3 of those different U values and the results,

4 the annual energy results, into the life cycle

5 so you can see it.

6 So not only are you going to be

7 verifying if the $700 increase is cost

8 effective or not, you'll also be verifying

9 that since you moved the value, if that's

10 still black enough, right? Because we don't

11 know if that's even cost effective yet.

12 MR. DENNIS: Right, and I would ask,

13 and I know some numbers have been thrown

14 around, I think maybe Emanuel. And I think

15 Manny's point really speaks to me also about,

16 you know, the uncertainty around this and

17 maybe taking a phased approach.

18 But I'd love to see those numbers

19 about, you know, the initial $2,000 plus the

20 $750, the percentages that we're going up from

21 from baseline and so we can have a broader

22 context for a story here rather than just a
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1 final number and say, well, that final

2 number's $50 more. We're saving $50 over 10

3 years for those people, you know, so we, like,

4 make them spend another $3,000.

5 Now, I think it would be good to have

6 those numbers in a context on a piece of paper

7 so that we can look at them and make --

8 Because I know everyone, it'd be nice to have

9 that presentation.

10 I know maybe I'm too lazy to do it

11 and I don't really want to be the person

12 saying let's not be more efficient but that is

13 a story in itself and where it's saying it I'd

14 like to see it on paper if possible.

15 MR. LUTER: I don't disagree.

16 MR. LUBLINER: This is Mike Lubliner.

17 MS. HOFFMAN: Is there a consensus on

18 that? Just, Mike, before you go would you

19 like to see that data or not?

20 (No audible response)

21 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay, and can you get

22 it?
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1 MR. HAGERMAN: I'm giving you the

2 annual data and the life cycle data which I

3 think is the basis of that story.

4 MR. DENNIS: Yes, I mean, I thought

5 it'd be nice to have the numbers that have

6 been cited today, the $2,000, the $750, the

7 percentage increase over the baseline cost

8 which I don't know what the average for a

9 single wide is. Is it $25,000? That would be

10 ten percent or whatnot, you know, things like

11 that.

12 MR. HAGERMAN: You'll see all that in

13 it. It would be nice if we get some, because

14 we've been using this average cost of a single

15 wide and a double section for the whole

16 nation. If we had better average costs in the

17 states, that would just help. Does that make

18 sense?

19 MS. STARKEY: Yes, I think we can

20 take the census data and manipulate it so that

21 we can determine what the average costs within

22 those states are.
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1 MR. HAGERMAN: Within, right. That

2 would give you the most accurate.

3 MS. STARKEY: Okay.

4 MR. UNGAR: One other thing which is

5 easy but it occurred to me to look at how do

6 the climates in these four states compare to

7 climates in the other parts of these two

8 regions as to whether they naturally belong

9 with one or the other in terms of, again,

10 coming up, I mean, PNNL for IECC came up with

11 eight regions where there was a reason why

12 they drove those boundaries.

13 But once we change to regions, I

14 don't know whether those states kind of

15 clearly belong with others and I think if we

16 look at heating and cooling degree days that

17 would probably give some indication as to

18 weather. Are these states really similar to

19 Florida in terms of their climate or --

20 MR. HAGERMAN: You sort of get that

21 by Robin's data, don't you?

22 MR. UNGAR: Maybe but that's somewhat
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1 arbitrary because we, when they drew

2 boundaries for what they were doing but we've

3 now combined them in ways so presumably much

4 of those states fit in IECC Zone 3 but if you

5 are combining 3 and 4 does that still make

6 sense or not?

7 MR. RAMIREZ: Rob, do you have

8 something?

9 MR. LUTER: This is Rob just with

10 another comment. One is I get how it's

11 convenient to align these borders with state

12 borders. I mean, everybody, I guess pretty

13 much everybody knows what state they're in so

14 it's easy to know what zone you'd be in.

15 But just kind of an off-the-wall

16 question, if we were just looking at the

17 existing IECC map, would we be having these

18 discussions? Would this debate be going on?

19 MR. KESSLER: This is Bert, Palm

20 Harbor. I think from an affordability

21 standpoint, we would be discussing the very

22 same thing and that's, you know, that's the
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1 significant increase from the existing HUD

2 code standards to the IECC 2015 so, yes, I

3 think so.

4 MR. LUTER: Right, but irrespective

5 of the map though, as I see it, we're looking

6 at substantially increasing the stringency of

7 the codes. You throw a dart at the country

8 and wherever you land the performance

9 requirements are getting tougher.

10 And it doesn't matter if it's with

11 the map we see before us right now or the

12 existing HUD map or the existing IECC map. 

13 It's getting tougher everywhere.

14 We've been having debates over what

15 the number should be in any particular part of

16 the country and if we combine parts of the

17 country are we too stringent in one area or

18 not stringent enough in the other by virtue of

19 combining them? I mean, what if we just went

20 in with the existing IECC map and call it

21 good?

22 MR. WADE: Michael Wade, Cavalier. 
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1 Rob, it's not a bad idea but the bad thing

2 about it, I'm afraid it would cause a state a

3 lot of confusion with the retailers who've

4 been in this industry for years.

5 When you think about, you know, since

6 1994 everyone in this industry has known

7 Climate Zone 1, 2 and 3 as related to the map

8 and what was being proposed very closely

9 resembles the same borders which, you know, I

10 think is a compromise.

11 MR. LUTER: Well, but they're still

12 different, though. My point would be --

13 MR. WEISS: Why?

14 MR. LUTER: They're going to have --

15 Let's just go through a hypothetical. Let's

16 say the normal or the existing IECC results

17 were adopted.

18 Anybody that's building modulars

19 right now, as I understand it, already has a

20 pretty good handle on where those are.

21 The folks that aren't would have,

22 what, 12, probably 12 months from the time
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1 this is announced to be able to understand the

2 differences.

3 And those individuals near zone

4 borders and that or who couldn't grasp the

5 intricacies, would they not just adopt a

6 practice of combining zones and using worst7 case scenario, not unlike the Texas

8 manufacturer does when he ships a haul into

9 Oklahoma?

10 Today he just uses, if you're looking

11 at the map on the left, he builds to Zone 2

12 and then he knows he's covered for 1 and 2. 

13 Isn't that, I mean, in practical terms how it

14 would shake out?

15 (Simultaneous speaking)

16 MR. KESSLER: Rob, I think you're

17 forgetting the one big difference between

18 modular and manufacturer.

19 When we build a modular home, we know

20 exactly where that thing is going. In most

21 cases we even know the orientation so there

22 are no other considerations to be made than
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1 the fact that it's going in a specific

2 location.

3 MR. LUTER: You know, I can

4 appreciate that the retailer if he orders

5 something for inventory doesn't necessarily or

6 perhaps ever know where it ultimately is going

7 to be.

8 (Simultaneous speaking)

9 MR. LUTER: Well, never mind. I

10 won't speculate.

11 MS. HOFFMAN: One second. 

12 Facilitator comment.

13 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, we're getting a

14 request for a break. I don't know how many of

15 you have been --

16 MS. HOFFMAN: You've been very

17 patient, yes.

18 MR. RAMIREZ: -- holding your

19 bladders, but let's take a ten-minute break

20 and then we'll come back and see where we want

21 to go with this. All right? So --

22 MR. HAGERMAN: You should say on the
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1 screen right now is a map that Robin Roy drew

2 that combines the IECC climate zones with

3 those three natural divisions that we've been

4 talking about. So, I mean, Rob Luter, this is

5 roughly what you were suggesting to do.

6 MR. LUTER: Understood and please, so

7 everybody knows, with respect to the zones, I

8 don't have a particular dog in the fight. I

9 mean, however it shakes out I'm good with. 

10 I'm just trying to facilitate this argument

11 moving on down the highway so we can move on

12 to some other issues.

13 MR. WADE: Let me make one comment if

14 I can. This is Michael Wade. I think we need

15 to stop for a minute and think are we here and

16 working on this because the HUD code exists or

17 does the HUD code exist because we're here,

18 you know? I think we're trying to serve the

19 HUD code and I don't think we need to lose

20 vision of that. So, thank you.

21 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay, now we're really

22 going to have this break. Ten minutes and
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1 we'll come back.

2 (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter

3 went off the record at 2:33 p.m. and resumed

4 at 2:56 p.m.)

5 MR. HAGERMAN: So what we did over

6 the break was this -- I don't know if

7 everybody can hear me. There's some feedback

8 or something on the phones.

9 So what we did over the break was

10 this and, you know, PNNL is going to do their

11 full analysis so let me just preface what I'm

12 about to say that the lab is going to do the

13 full analysis for us and they are going to

14 pick a city in the four states, one city in

15 South Carolina, one in Georgia, one Alabama,

16 one Mississippi.

17 But what we did was, you know, we've

18 run a lot of simulations, right. We ran the

19 2006 Code, the 2009 Code, the HUD baseline,

20 multiple HUD baselines, we've run a lot of

21 numbers already, right.

22 And we always ran Houston and we
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1 always ran Memphis and so what we said was,

2 you know, the climate in Memphis, degree

3 heating days is roughly the same climate in

4 Atlanta, right, which is more in the heart of

5 that section right there, right. It's pretty

6 similar.

7 So let's look for a case where we run

8 Memphis, our proxy for Atlanta at a U Value of

9 0.087, and we did. We ran one in 2006, IECC,

10 we ran a 0.088, and if you'd run that and look

11 at the costs you never get a positive savings.

12 You get over a 10-year, a 10-year

13 life span of that house you get a negative

14 $1100 and $80, $22 or something. So, you

15 know, again, this is what I said earlier, I

16 think there's unintended consequences when we

17 change these values, right.

18 So, you know, we're going to do the

19 full analysis. It's going to take PNNL a

20 little bit more time to run those numbers, or

21 run those cities because they don't have

22 complete weather files, so they have to go
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1 create the weather files for those cities.

2 But that's not a problem, we have all

3 the publicly available weather data. It's

4 just going to take them a couple more days and

5 they usually turn things around and then

6 you'll see all those results.

7 And then we can, you know, Matthew

8 can make a, maybe a smaller section of a life

9 cycle table, you know, that we can just focus

10 on those four cities and then we can close out

11 this discussion.

12 So that's what we're going to do, but

13 that's just kind of the background, a little

14 calculation that doesn't show that going to a

15 0.088 is cost effective.

16 MR. RAMIREZ: All right, so then

17 we're going to table this discussion until we

18 get additional information, we'll pick it up

19 in Denver, correct?

20 MR. DENNIS: A technical question,

21 does that mean a 0.07 would be even less cost

22 effective?
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1 MR. HAGERMAN: No, that means 0.07 is

2 cost effective.

3 MR. DENNIS: And 0.08's not?

4 MR. HAGERMAN: That's right.

5 MR. RAMIREZ: Now when you say --

6 MR. LUTER: Who were you just

7 telling?

8 MS. HOFFMAN: I think that you could

9 just tell him.

10 MR. HAGERMAN: Yes, so think about

11 what goes into those numbers, right. There

12 is, you know, there's insulation, there's the

13 heat loss through the building, there's the

14 heat gain through the building, there's the

15 loads, or the weather, you know, it's not a

16 simple little linear equation, right, so

17 that's why we do all these simulations.

18 MR. DENNIS: So you're saying because

19 it's warmer the insulation is paying back more

20 --

21 MR. HAGERMAN: Right.

22 MR. DENNIS: -- and as you take
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1 insulation out you're actually reducing --

2 MR. HAGERMAN: Saying the combined,

3 the packages that we've selected there, all

4 those components make that unit perform better

5 in that climate zone.

6 MR. DENNIS: Okay.

7 MR. WEISS: So it's like the bell

8 curve, a manual --

9 (Simultaneous speaking)

10 MR. HAGERMAN: But anyway you'll see

11 the runs.

12 MR. WEISS: Okay.

13 MR. HAGERMAN: Okay.

14 MR. RAMIREZ: All right, then, Ted,

15 can we pull up the Agenda?

16 MR. LUBLINER: This is Mike Lubliner.

17 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, Michael?

18 MR. LUBLINER: Joe, is it possible

19 when you do the runs that you can also look at

20 the actual total cost in savings between the

21 two and also those kind of peak load

22 externalities, the impact on the electrical
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1 grid from adopting one and the map versus the

2 other?

3 I don't know if you can do that, but

4 I think that would be interesting for me if

5 it's possible. Thank you.

6 MR. HAGERMAN: So we probably won't

7 be able to do that in this short turnaround. 

8 We have to do that obviously for the other

9 analysis that has to go OV, so that will all

10 be in our final rule package.

11 MR. LUBLINER: Thanks, Joe.

12 MR. HAGERMAN: You'll see that.

13 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. So since we're

14 done for now and I had it on there before,

15 tabled for industry discussion, but either way

16 the climate zone discussion is tabled.

17 Are there any additional items that

18 need to be covered under subcommittee reports? 

19 Anything under financial, manufacturing,

20 affordability, and --

21 MS. DICKENS: Sorry, this is Ishbel

22 from NMHOA. Stacey is not available and I
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1 believe Amy also had to drop off the

2 connection, so this could be a very, very

3 quick update from the financial subcommittee,

4 won't take more than two minutes.

5 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. Okay, go ahead.

6 MS. DICKENS: So do you want me to do

7 that right now?

8 MR. HAGERMAN: Yes.

9 MS. DICKENS: Okay. Someone just

10 asked about anything we knew about why

11 homeowners might foreclose on their homes, so

12 there's only anecdotal evidence form MHI and

13 from NMHOA.

14 And some of the reasons were the same

15 reasons that you would get from any homeowner

16 who ends up in a foreclosure situation, job

17 loss, divorce, those were the main reasons

18 from MHI and along with updates saying that,

19 but there were usually no defaults in the

20 first two years of the homeowner purchasing

21 the home.

22 Additional anecdotal evidence from
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1 NMHOA is that, but particularly, and this is

2 especially and really only for homeowners who

3 are living in land lease communities, as the

4 base rent goes up homeowners who are at the

5 margins may have a difficult time paying both

6 their loan amount and their space rent and

7 they opt to just continue to pay the increased

8 space rent because eviction based on non9 payment of rent is a fairly quick turnaround

10 whereas a foreclosure on not paying their

11 mortgage may take longer, so that may be one

12 reason.

13 And then additionally when people are

14 served notice that their community is going to

15 close or change its use they may not see the

16 point in continuing to pay off a loan on their

17 home when in all likelihood they will lose

18 that home when the community closes because

19 they won't be able to move it anywhere else.

20 So those are just anecdotal reasons

21 that we know of for why some homeowners anyway

22 may end up defaulting on their loans. In
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1 addition, Javier, I said to you the day before

2 yesterday the Consumer Finance Protection

3 Bureau Reports on manufactured housing loans

4 and they verify what the number is.

5 A manual was used in terms of the

6 $43,000 for a standard single section home,

7 $78,000 for the cost of a multi-section home,

8 also stating what we already know that average

9 homebuyers of manufactured homes tend to be

10 older and have less net worth than other

11 homeowners and they would like to live in

12 rural areas.

13 And they were just basically also

14 saying what we already know that the majority

15 of homeowners are using chattel loans,

16 personal property loans to purchase their

17 homes, which have, as we all know, much higher

18 interest rates, a shorter amortization period,

19 some potentially higher costs involved, and I

20 believe they were using a 9 percent chattel

21 loan average.

22 So that's all I have from the finance
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1 committee.

2 (Simultaneous speaking)

3 MS. STARKEY: I'm a member of the -- 

4 I think the other anecdotal piece of

5 information was healthcare costs.

6 MS. DICKENS: Oh, yes, right.

7 MS. STARKEY: The additional reason,

8 yes, healthcare.

9 MR. LUBLINER: This is Mike Lubliner.

10 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay, Michael?

11 MR. LUBLINER: Yes, I was just

12 wondering if the, I had mentioned something

13 and I know it got addressed a little bit

14 yesterday, but did the financial committee,

15 were they able to get any estimates of what

16 percentage of new manufactured home purchases

17 are cash, because we see that as half the

18 market in our small little area of the country

19 and I'm just wondering if that has any impact

20 on these discussions.

21 If it doesn't then I will not raise

22 it, but I was wondering if you actually got
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1 that data. I know Stacey said she was going

2 to try to look into that. Thank you.

3 MR. RAMIREZ: Lois?

4 MS. DICKENS: I don't have that --

5 (Simultaneous speaking)

6 MS. STARKEY: Yes, it's 30 percent,

7 and I think that's, I have to confirm where it

8 came from, but I think it's HMDA, but that's,

9 and our lenders that we polled, but, you know,

10 30 percent would be a good -- Nationwide, yes.

11 MR. LUBLINER: Thank you very much,

12 Lois, I appreciate that.

13 MS. HOFFMAN: Ishbel, did you have

14 something you were adding?

15 MS. DICKENS: Oh, no, I was just

16 saying that I did not have that information on

17 the percent of cash buys. I'm amazed it's

18 that high, but thanks, Lois, for that

19 information.

20 MS. STARKEY: It's primarily because

21 of the difficulty in getting financing. We'd

22 love to see that number go down so we could
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1 make more loans and sell more homes, but --

2 MS. DICKENS: Right, finance, yes,

3 thank you.

4 MR. RAMIREZ: All right, great. 

5 Thank you, Ishbel. David, anything additional

6 on manufacturing?

7 MR. TOMPOS: No, I do not.

8 MR. RAMIREZ: Robin, anything out of

9 affordability?

10 MR. ROY: It doesn't seem to be such

11 an issue here.

12 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. As far as the --

13 MR. ROY: No, I don't, sorry.

14 MR. RAMIREZ: Even on the avenues

15 that you're exploring?

16 MR. ROY: No. We were waiting to see

17 if it's necessary. I don't think there's that

18 much of a gap, so hopefully the approach that

19 we were discussing, but let's wait.

20 MR. RAMIREZ: Manny, anything

21 additional on the 2015 IECC?

22 MR. SANTANA: Manny with Cavco. Our
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1 committee, I think we concluded all of our

2 work on the mandatory sections and we were

3 intending to continue with the prescriptive

4 part, but we've almost, I do believe we've

5 addressed the vast majority of those, so, you

6 know, unless the members feel otherwise I

7 think we're, we'll get it to the stand.

8 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. And then, David

9 --

10 MR. LACEY: Just one point. This is

11 Eric from RECA. You know, I went through,

12 back through the Code and looked at the

13 sections that, and the footnotes to the tables

14 that we might want to include and I think

15 there were fewer than ten or so issues.

16 And so I think the vast majority of

17 it has been taken care of either through the

18 duct and air leakage issues we've talked about

19 at great length and the mandatory sections

20 which we talked about.

21 But there are a few other little odds

22 and ends and notations that I think would be
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1 helpful to include with the recommendation

2 and, I mean I'd be happy to draft something up

3 for you, Manny, and run it by you guys if you

4 want.

5 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. So and then

6 you'll get that to the industries, the group

7 before the next meeting?

8 MR. LACEY: Yes. Is that okay,

9 Manny?

10 MR. SANTANA: Yes, you know I'm here

11 to please. So some of them were still intact.

12 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. All right. Well

13 it sounds like we have a new chair now, a new

14 chair on that committee.

15 MS. HOFFMAN: Eric --

16 MR. LACEY: No, no, no, I still need

17 this committee.

18 MR. RAMIREZ: No, okay.

19 MR. LACEY: I understand we're

20 cousins, so --

21 MS. HOFFMAN: But just so, Eric,

22 you're going to run it by Manny and then get
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1 it to us and we'll make sure it goes out to

2 the whole --

3 MR. LACEY: Yes, yes. You'll maybe

4 decide you don't need it, but I thought some

5 of the footnotes and notes would be helpful.

6 MS. HOFFMAN: Yes, but -- Sure. We

7 need as much as possible for the next meeting.

8 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay, great. And then,

9 David Tompos, you're done with your air

10 quality report, right?

11 MR. TOMPOS: Just about.

12 MR. RAMIREZ: All right. All right,

13 so as far as subcommittee reports we'll leave

14 that on the agenda for the next meeting as

15 well just to see if anything has come up and

16 we can do a quick run through just like we did

17 and see if there's anything that is added on

18 to that.

19 MS. HOFFMAN: Were there other

20 committees? Emanuel, did you have one or is

21 this it, are we all set?

22 MR. RAMIREZ: No, that's it. No,
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1 Emanuel's been doing this all along, right.

2 MS. HOFFMAN: Oh, okay.

3 MR. RAMIREZ: It's been very helpful,

4 thank you, Emanuel.

5 MR. LEVY: I have a committee warning

6 with a little disagreement.

7 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes. Let's hope not,

8 right. Some arguments, but not disagreements,

9 right. All right, then as far as the next

10 agenda item we have the items that you wanted

11 to make as far as recommendations to ASRAC and

12 you had the -- No, the manual J&S that's been

13 resolved.

14 But for the Manual D methodology and

15 duct size that's a recommendation that you're

16 going to make to ASRAC that they consider

17 that, right, as well as a REScheck tool.

18 It's a recommendation for a

19 compliance committee and is that something

20 that we're going to be making to ASRAC?

21 MR. ROY: We're hoping to get that

22 resolved before Christmas, right?
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1 MR. RAMIREZ: Right. It would be, I

2 hope he's talking about the recommendation,

3 but either way, so that's something that we're

4 going to have to finalize and that'll be on

5 the agenda for the next one as well as a label

6 for sizing, and I believe that was another

7 item that was discussed.

8 MS. HOFFMAN: And there might be

9 education or there may be other

10 recommendations you think of for at the next

11 meeting.

12 MR. RAMIREZ: Can you think of any

13 other items as far as recommendations go that

14 we need to make to ASRAC? The door is not --

15 Oh, I'm sorry.

16 MR. TOMPOS: Okay. Well I just

17 wanted to go back to the Manual D again. What

18 exactly are we having them consider? Is it

19 the fact that we may or may not do it?

20 MR. HAGERMAN: I think it's that DOE

21 should consider a Manual D on those

22 alternative methods for doing the load
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1 calculations. Whatever that provision says --

2 MR. RAMIREZ: For other approved

3 heating and cooling calculation methodologies.

4 MR. TOMPOS: Okay.

5 MR. RAMIREZ: So you'll consider it

6 as Manual D.

7 MR. UNGAR: It's not alternative to

8 making assets --

9 MS. HOFFMAN: No, it's not an

10 alternative, it's an addition.

11 MR. UNGAR: -- it's as a

12 complimentary.

13 MS. HOFFMAN: It's in addition and

14 it's to explore it, to look at Manual D. I

15 don't think it's --

16 MR. HAGERMAN: It's not to put Manual

17 D into the -- to require it, but to consider

18 it as, I think as an, not as an alternative,

19 but as an additional --

20 MR. TOMPOS: As an option?

21 MR. HAGERMAN: As an option, there

22 you go.
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1 MR. TOMPOS: Okay.

2 MR. HAGERMAN: That's my

3 understanding. And to include it in the

4 REScheck, too.

5 MR. LUBLINER: This is Mike Lubliner.

6 MR. TOMPOS: Oh, you're saying it

7 could be included in the REScheck?

8 MR. HAGERMAN: Yes.

9 (Simultaneous speaking)

10 MR. TOMPOS: I just, I think there is

11 additional --

12 MR. HAGERMAN: Sorry that I'm

13 fumbling through that, but my memory is kind

14 of --

15 MR. RAMIREZ: Mush?

16 MR. HAGERMAN: -- mush right now.

17 MR. TOMPOS: I just want to make sure

18 that if we do, if it's not a requirement fine. 

19 I think there's a lot of other things that

20 need to be considered if we do Manual D

21 because I think then you're going to be

22 getting into some graduated ducts and a number
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1 of different things that the manufacturers are

2 currently not set up to produce.

3 Usually the manufacturer are

4 producing one size trunk in the plants and I

5 think some of their equipment may not be set

6 up to make those changes, so we haven't even

7 touched or scratched the surface on what the

8 ramifications of adding Manual D to this

9 requirement.

10 So I'm just throwing that out there

11 when that does get considered.

12 MR. LUBLINER: This is Mike Lubliner.

13 MR. RAMIREZ: Go ahead, Michael.

14 MR. LUBLINER: Yes, so I think you're

15 right we could learn to, what is the current

16 practice? Could you possibly, David, share

17 with us the existing duct calculations used to

18 determine that you're getting the 400 cfm per

19 ton that an AC or a heat pump requires to

20 perform at its HSPF or SEER level as we've

21 modeled?

22 Can you give us an example so we can
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1 look at it and compare it to Manual D and see

2 if these are engineering issues or other

3 issues?

4 I totally agree with you, David, that

5 the product that's being used now it has been

6 around for a long, long time and maybe now is

7 the time to take a look to make sure that

8 we're sizing adequately, particularly for the

9 large tonnage units.

10 I do think one of the benefits though

11 of improving the energy code here is that the

12 existing duct system will require a smaller

13 piece of equipment and therefore it's more,

14 it's closer to the 400 cfm per duct, so by

15 increasing the efficiency of the home we're

16 making the ducts "a light size."

17 We're getting them so they have more

18 flexibility to deliver more air to the larger

19 homes or whatever the situation is. So if you

20 could share with us any sort of duct design

21 approaches you use for these prototypes maybe

22 that would be a good way to start. Thank you.
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1 MR. TOMPOS: Well I don't know if I

2 can share any duct design. Typically the

3 industry has it done by the HVAC supplier, so

4 we don't get into how the calculations are

5 done, they just come back from the suppliers

6 and that's what's being used.

7 I mean maybe one of the manufacturers

8 that works with those suppliers could comment

9 on that.

10 MR. LUBLINER: I guess I didn't have

11 a problem with that because my understand is

12 you sell a home that's called AC ready or heat

13 pump ready and my understanding is that home

14 was designed so that it could handle the flow

15 rates.

16 The ducts were designed so they could

17 handle the flow rates of an AC system, which

18 I believe engineering would say anything

19 longer than 300 cfm per ton is out of spec.

20 So I'm just wondering am I off? Does

21 the heat pump ready or AC ready not look at

22 the duct design adequacy?
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1 MR. TOMPOS: I don't know, Michael.

2 MR. RAMIREZ: All right, so in the

3 way --

4 MR. LUBLINER: I guess it's just like

5 a defining condition space.

6 MR. RAMIREZ: Well, you know, we'll

7 nail down the exact recommendations that we're

8 going to have to make to ASRAC, and that's

9 going to be one of them that's going to be on

10 the agenda for Denver.

11 MS. HOFFMAN: Right.

12 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. The logistics

13 for Denver. I believe we are looking at the

14 Denver Marriott West?

15 MR. HAGERMAN: Yes. So we're still

16 working on that. So we're trying to make a

17 block of rooms for the Denver Marriott West. 

18 It's, you know, government rate or, you know,

19 conference rate, so it's more affordable.

20 We're going to circulate, so some

21 staff at Ed's shop are going to circulate

22 information about where the lab is and
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1 logistics on how to get to the lab and how to

2 get to the hotel.

3 It would be helpful for us to know,

4 sort of just take a straw poll real quick of

5 who all is going to be coming to Denver just

6 so when we reserve the block of rooms that,

7 you know, that we can hit the number they ask

8 us to hit.

9 So maybe if we could quickly, I don't

10 know take a thumb vote on who's going to

11 Denver.

12 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes. Well let's start

13 off with the folks in the room here. Who in

14 the room is planning on going to Denver?

15 MR. HAGERMAN: Not everybody at once,

16 all right.

17 MR. RAMIREZ: Just raise your hands 

18 and we'll get --

19 MR. HAGERMAN: Okay, so that's three

20 people, four people maybe.

21 MR. RAMIREZ: Lois, no?

22 MS. STARKEY: No.
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1 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay, so Lois, no,

2 Keith, no, and David, no, Mark, no, everyone

3 else either a yes or a maybe. Kavita, yes?

4 (No audible response)

5 MR. HAGERMAN: What about who on the

6 phone?

7 MS. DICKENS: I'll be going, Ishbel.

8 MR. SANTANA: Manny, I'm going.

9 MR. LUTER: Rob Luter, I'll be going.

10 MR. EZZO: Mark Ezzo, I'm going.

11 MR. WEISS: Michael Weiss going.

12 MR. LEVY: Emanuel Levy, I'm going.

13 MR. LUBLINER: And Luby's going if

14 the doctor says it's okay for his knee.

15 MR. HAGERMAN: Who do we have to

16 call?

17 (Laughter)

18 MR. HAGERMAN: So that's seven people

19 on the phone and then about seven people in

20 the room counting the feds and the

21 consultants, okay.

22 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. And then as far
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1 as time are we, if I remember correctly we

2 were looking at, was it a half or a full day

3 the first day --

4 MR. HAGERMAN: It was an early start

5 on the first day, on a Thursday, 8:00 a.m. 

6 You can walk from the hotel to the National

7 Lab and there's a little, you know, security

8 booth you have to go through and, of course,

9 we'll have people directing you where to go.

10 MR. RAMIREZ: And then an early start

11 on Friday as well with an early release, like

12 a noon release.

13 MR. HAGERMAN: Yes. If we do a noon

14 release then people that are on the East Coast

15 can fly back.

16 MR. RAMIREZ: All right. And then

17 you had also talked about the possibility of

18 having a Q&A session or maybe even a tour, did

19 you want to have that arranged for either

20 Friday afternoon or on Wednesday later in the

21 afternoon?

22 MR. HAGERMAN: Sure. We can, yes, so
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1 the lab folks are happy to give you tours of

2 their facility. They're some nice net zero

3 buildings and what not and you can see their

4 testing labs, it's just sort of cool to see I

5 guess.

6 More importantly, you know, our

7 budget is largely a research and development

8 budget. You know, of the $200 million that we

9 get appropriated from Congress about $130

10 million goes to R&D.

11 We have a team out there that focuses

12 solely on residence rule R&D called the

13 Building America Program, and so I wanted them

14 to come in and present for maybe 30 minutes if

15 they could about what research they're doing

16 that pertains to manufactured housing.

17 And then more importantly for you to

18 discuss with them what some industry needs

19 would be in both meeting this legislation, or

20 meeting this term sheet or other things that

21 you're struggling with, right, or big unknowns

22 that, you know, that you have that are not
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1 solved.

2 Because that feedback really helps us

3 design our programs. So I put that offer on

4 the table, too, and they're happy to present

5 to you, or they're happy if we're running out

6 of time, or if we're happy to skip that as

7 well.

8 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes. So the question

9 for you all is there interest in that?

10 MR. LEVY: Yes.

11 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. It sounds like

12 there is and then if so when is the ideal time

13 to try to block out? Is it Wednesday evening,

14 is it Thursday evening, or Friday afternoon?

15 MR. LEVY: I would say Friday

16 afternoon for me.

17 MR. SANTANA: Friday afternoon for me

18 as well, Manny.

19 MR. RAMIREZ: So we'll do business

20 until noon and then break for lunch and then

21 after lunch meet with them.

22 MR. HAGERMAN: The people that want
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1 to stay and meet with them, they can meet with

2 them and they can go through the facility with

3 them, too, so that's fine.

4 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. Let's see --

5 MS. DICKENS: I just have one

6 logistical question, sorry, this is Ishbel. 

7 So I know, I've been to Denver, I've been to

8 Colorado several times, but is that hotel near

9 the airport or is there public transportation

10 or, because somehow I thought we were going to

11 Golden, which somebody said was like half an

12 hour from Denver, so has that changed or am I

13 wrong?

14 MR. HAGERMAN: No, that's correct. 

15 I'm sorry to confuse you. So the Denver

16 Marriott West is actually in Golden, Colorado,

17 and I guess you could take public transport

18 there. You'd probably need to leave a couple

19 days ahead of time.

20 (Laughter)

21 MR. ROY: Google says two hours and

22 20 minutes for public transport.
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1 MR. HAGERMAN: That's like 2 hours and

2 20 minutes. Right. And so if you just rent

3 a car it's about a 30 to 40 minute drive from

4 the airport.

5 MR. RAMIREZ: Emanuel was kind of

6 enough to send the address. I'm just going to

7 send the address out for planning purposes,

8 but we're going to have all the details later.

9 (Simultaneous speaking)

10 MR. HAGERMAN: And I'm sorry we have

11 a sort of care package about the lab and how

12 to get there and everything it's just stuck in

13 our email, we can't get it out to you, so

14 we'll get that out as soon as we can.

15 MS. HOFFMAN: Also, if we know when

16 people are arriving at the airport you could

17 maybe carpool, because I think everything is

18 going to be within, if we know, you know --

19 MR. HAGERMAN: Right. There is not

20 a shuttle.

21 MS. DICKENS: Right.

22 MR. HAGERMAN: The Marriot does not
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1 have a shuttle to the airport or anything like

2 that. They sometimes give us a shuttle to all

3 the restaurants at night, which it's not far

4 to walk to the restaurants.

5 MS. DICKENS: So I guess this would

6 be, it would be a good time to exercise our

7 thumbs it sounds like.

8 MR. HAGERMAN: That's right. So

9 that's all we have, but, you know, we'll try

10 to get a care package sent off to you as

11 quickly as possible and tell you who to call

12 for rooms and everything like that.

13 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay.

14 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. And then

15 anything else as far as logistics for Denver? 

16 Any public comment?

17 MR. MENDLEN: Yes. I just have a few

18 comments. Just reminding everybody that there

19 were comments that I made about the

20 consultation between HUD and DOE and just as

21 a reminder, and we've only had preliminary

22 discussions, we certainly fully intend to
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1 consult at our end with DOE and we assume that

2 DOE intends to the same at their end.

3 And that will certainly take place I

4 think as soon as the term sheet has been

5 prepared, but that's at least preliminary

6 planning for now.

7 To kind of, what's that term you used

8 again, Mark?

9 MR. WEISS: Glom on.

10 MR. MENDLEN: Glom on. I just wanted

11 to let you guys know, I mean there was sort of

12 suggestions by Mike Lubliner that, maybe to

13 the contrary, but HUD has a very robust

14 enforcement program.

15 They've been working for several

16 years to improve the quality in all of our

17 factories with tremendous emphasis there and

18 we have finally restored compliance auditing

19 again that we're doing to evaluate how

20 effective that quality emphasis has been.

21 So there are no worries I think with

22 respect to our enforcement system. It is a
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1 very strong, uniformity is the key to getting

2 this thing through I think. The simpler you

3 can make it the more uniform you can make, the

4 more effective our enforcement system can

5 police it basically.

6 I would suggest that if PNNL is going

7 to do anymore analysis that they also look at

8 some different geometries to make sure that

9 the prescriptive provisions will work in other

10 geometries, smaller units, larger units,

11 whatever, just to be sure that the

12 prescriptive requirements are getting you

13 where you want to be.

14 I told somebody, you know, in terms

15 of rulemaking this isn't my first rodeo. I've

16 been involved with many, many rulemakings and

17 I want to encourage you that wherever possible

18 to make compromise between the respective

19 interests that are here, and there are many

20 respective interests.

21 There's manufacturers, there's the

22 federal agencies, there's the energy interest,
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1 the consumer protection interest, it's all

2 over the place and you've come so far.

3 I mean I've really been impressed

4 with how far you've been able to come in a

5 short period of time. And if you get logged

6 down in the weeds, so to speak, and don't do

7 a term sheet or don't get the term sheet done

8 in Denver, or Golden, it would be a real

9 crime.

10 So I really hope that you can work

11 effectively at the very end here to make the

12 kinds of decisions that will move the product

13 forward. And that's about what I have to say,

14 thank you.

15 MR. RAMIREZ: Thank you, Rick.

16 MR. LUBLINER: Javier, this is Mike

17 Lubliner.

18 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes?

19 MR. LUBLINER: Can I make a brief

20 response to Rick, because I want to be clear

21 to him and Dave that, you know, I was

22 appointed by the Bush Administration and by
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1 the Obama Administration to be on the

2 Manufactured Housing Consensus Committee to

3 vouch for the consumers interests.

4 And I think that there has been

5 significant progress made since I first

6 started on that and I look forward to

7 additional progress.

8 My specific concerns have to do with

9 the funding, or the lack thereof, that HUD

10 receives so that they can enforce their

11 overall program, and I have been an advocate

12 on the committee and outside the committee for

13 fully funding HUD so that IBTS can be out in

14 the field ensuring that the things that I

15 raise technically are being done.

16 And in no way am I trying to take any

17 personal sprite with anybody, I'm just

18 observing the process and I would encourage

19 all of you to read the GAO Report, which gets

20 into a history of some the issues associated

21 with this lack of funding and how it's caused

22 HUD in their Office of Manufactured Housing
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1 the inability to even pay its bills.

2 So I'm with you. I'm trying to get

3 you funding to do your job, Rick, and I want

4 to be clear that everybody on this committee

5 understands that based on my value systems I'm

6 representing the consumer. Thank you very

7 much.

8 MR. MENDLEN: Can I respond, Javier?

9 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes.

10 MR. MENDLEN: Mike, we just recently

11 passed an increase in the label fee that we

12 are collecting for every transportable section

13 from $39 to $100 per transportable section.

14 We are able to fund this program now

15 fully, so comments of the kind that you just

16 made are certainly inappropriate.

17 (Simultaneous speaking)

18 MR. LUBLINER: Well I'd like to see

19 when that happen -- Like I said I'm aware of

20 that and I've been supportive of that.

21 So I don't want to get argumentative

22 with you, Rick, here --
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1 MR. MENDLEN: Well you are being

2 argumentative, I'm sorry.

3 (Simultaneous speaking)

4 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay, this is when the

5 facilitators thank you. We call time, thank

6 you. Thank you for your candid expressions. 

7 Okay, moving right along. Thank you, both, go

8 on.

9 MR. RAMIREZ: Quite the diplomat. 

10 All right, so we are going to, as far as

11 homework goes, Joe is going to be doing some

12 runs, David, you have some work and you, and

13 I see David as the lead, right, but there's a

14 --

15 MS. HOFFMAN: We know he has more.

16 MR. RAMIREZ: You have a nice support

17 group there.

18 MS. HOFFMAN: Right. Can you help me

19 with one thing? The term sheet --

20 MR. HAGERMAN: Hold on. I think Eric

21 also has some work, too.

22 MS. HOFFMAN: Oh, sorry. Because I
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1 was just going to ask how like the mechanics

2 of doing that --

3 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes. Well he has the

4 2015 IECC footnotes they're going to be doing.

5 MS. HOFFMAN: Yes.

6 MR. HAGERMAN: That's right, yes. Is

7 there anything else?

8 MR. RAMIREZ: Oh, do you want to do

9 some homework?

10 MR. DENNIS: No. I have a question

11 about homework though.

12 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay.

13 MR. DENNIS: Do we have like two

14 maps, are we looking at like, I'd like to run

15 the maps by some members, like is it just the

16 two that we're looking at?

17 I mean do we have options at this

18 point or are we all just not anywhere yet?

19 MR. HAGERMAN: So I mean, so I think

20 there's like sort of two or three different

21 boundary conditions.

22 MS. HOFFMAN: You can read this map.
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1 MR. HAGERMAN: There's this map,

2 right, there's the Rob and Roy map, which is

3 the IECC climate zones grouped together,

4 right, because that's how the new values

5 naturally, you know, aggregate.

6 MR. DENNIS: Right.

7 MR. HAGERMAN: And then, I throw it

8 out there, there's kind of a hybrid that one

9 could draw that is the first map, but in the

10 climate zone area of controversy you just turn

11 that into replicating the Rob and Roy map,

12 right.

13 MR. DENNIS: Okay. So we keep one

14 and two down here --

15 MR. HAGERMAN: So it's like a hybrid

16 of one and two.

17 MR. UNGAR: All right. So the

18 boundary between one and two would effectively

19 follow the dotted line, which is the same as

20 Rob and Roy's.

21 MR. HAGERMAN: That's right.

22 MR. DENNIS: Okay. And then --
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1 MR. HAGERMAN: I really see that as

2 the three, I mean the three kind of logical

3 options.

4 MR. UNGAR: Right.

5 MR. DENNIS: And then, yes, somebody

6 just sent out a paper, it was Javier, and it

7 mentioned that, you know, South Carolina has

8 the highest prevalence in manufactured

9 housing, so can we just make sure that we get

10 one of us to use in that run in both the two

11 and one, because South Carolina's --

12 MR. HAGERMAN: We can capture that,

13 yes.

14 MR. DENNIS: Yes. Okay, thanks.

15 MR. HAGERMAN: You also have the

16 shipment data so you should verify that with

17 the shipment data. South Carolina has 2000

18 homes shipped in HUD Thermal Zone 1. Texas

19 has 12,000, so --

20 MR. DENNIS: It just must be per

21 square mile or --

22 (Simultaneous speaking)
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1 MR. UNGAR: Are the proportion zones

2 on it?

3 MR. HAGERMAN: Yes, an estimate. You

4 just, I think the HUD shipment data gives you

5 some good information just to get the numbers.

6 MR. UNGAR: Cool, thank you.

7 MS. HOFFMAN: Any questions or

8 comments from the folks on the line? I was

9 just going to ask, and I didn't know, about

10 the term sheet, should we be playing ground

11 with it in advance or how do, you know, how do

12 --

13 (Simultaneous speaking)

14 MR. HAGERMAN: Since Navigant put

15 together that outline and they've been keeping

16 track of the votes and all of the documents

17 that we've been generating and voting on, I

18 was going to offer that in the next, over the

19 course of the next three weeks, but they're

20 going to get it to you before then, they

21 compile a record of everything we've been

22 voting on and start compiling that term sheet
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1 following the outline that we sent around

2 earlier.

3 MR. UNGAR: Trying to put in a form

4 of --

5 MS. HOFFMAN: Put it in a format.

6 MR. HAGERMAN: Yes.

7 MS. HOFFMAN: Is that agreeable?

8 MR. HAGERMAN: Or else somebody has

9 to raise their hand to do it, which we're

10 happy for people's hands to go up right now.

11 MR. RAMIREZ: I think I saw Matthew's

12 hand raised.

13 MS. HOFFMAN: Matthew's hand is

14 raised, yes, we saw it, his virtual hand.

15 MR. HAGERMAN: I mean everybody's

16 been keeping track of everything we've been

17 voting on so it shouldn't, you know when we

18 compile it it should not be a surprise to you,

19 if it's a surprise to you then, you know, we

20 have issues or problems.

21 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. So I'll add that

22 as part of the next agenda review of a draft
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1 term sheet.

2 MS. HOFFMAN: Right. And hopefully

3 we might have that in advance to look over in

4 time for the meeting.

5 MR. HAGERMAN: Yes, but, I mean for

6 sure we'll try to get you that by that Monday,

7 I think it's the 20th, before that week. It's

8 just what I want to ask them to do is I want

9 them to go back over the transcripts to make

10 sure that we haven't forgot anything.

11 It should be some exciting reading

12 for Matthew.

13 MS. HOFFMAN: Yes. How is it -- Oh,

14 go on, please, Lowell.

15 MR. UNGAR: Two things, one in terms

16 of homework. Joe, you kind of did it in real

17 time, but I'm wondering if we could something

18 on heating and cooling degree days in the

19 cities for which we, in which our analysis has

20 been based so far in the South, and then in a

21 number of cities throughout the four states

22 suggest again where, for the climate in those
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1 states what did they look like?

2 MR. MENDLEN: Thank you. Well that's

3 good.

4 MR. HAGERMAN: Okay. That's pretty

5 easy to find.

6 MR. UNGAR: Yes. I mean obviously it

7 depends, hopefully it can do an average over

8 several years because, obviously, they vary.

9 MR. HAGERMAN: ASHRAE keeps a list of

10 the average heating and cooling days. The

11 ASHRAE tables have that --

12 (Simultaneous speaking)

13 MR. DENNIS: Can we get this one,

14 too?

15 MR. HAGERMAN: That's the Rob and Roy

16 one?

17 MR. RAMIREZ: I just sent that.

18 MR. DENNIS: That was the other one. 

19 Oh, you sent it again, okay.

20 MR. RAMIREZ: No, I sent two. I sent

21 Emanuel's and Rob and Roy's.

22 MR. HAGERMAN: And would it be
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1 helpful for us to draw up the hybrid map, too,

2 which is Emanuel's, but just in the one zone

3 have the Rob and Roy proposal, does that help

4 you?

5 MR. DENNIS: Yes. I mean I can do it

6 myself or you could do it, yes.

7 MS. HOFFMAN: Yes.

8 (Simultaneous speaking)

9 MR. DENNIS: If we did it that way,

10 yes.

11 MR. HAGERMAN: Okay. We'll do it and

12 we'll send it up.

13 MS. HOFFMAN: Great. Let me ask you

14 from a facilitator point of view, how is this

15 process working for you so far?

16 MR. RAMIREZ: Anything that we need

17 to consider.

18 MS. HOFFMAN: Yes.

19 MR. RAMIREZ: Keep doing it or do

20 better, do different.

21 MS. STARKEY: Yes.

22 (Simultaneous speaking)
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1 MS. HOFFMAN: But even offline you

2 can let us know how we might be able to

3 improve.

4 MR. UNGAR: Yes, I was wondering, my

5 main frustration which was finally addressed

6 this time was for this key issue of the, you

7 know, that we discussed now and we didn't get

8 it until two, even started discussing it until

9 four or five meetings in.

10 MS. HOFFMAN: Yes.

11 MR. UNGAR: That it might've been

12 nice to have it earlier so they had more time

13 to have tried it and work out whatever issues.

14 MS. HOFFMAN: Sure.

15 MR. UNGAR: But with that said -- Not

16 where the zones are, but for the --

17 MR. MENDLEN: That's water under the

18 bridge.

19 MR. UNGAR: Yes, it's kind of water

20 under the bridge.

21 MS. HOFFMAN: Yes.

22 MR. UNGAR: Or the prescriptive and
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1 Uo values, which, you know, since we now

2 already had discussion that's great.

3 MS. HOFFMAN: Right.

4 MR. UNGAR: It's just taking a long

5 time. Until this meeting I had no real idea

6 of where we were headed. Now I have a good

7 idea of --

8 MS. HOFFMAN: Where we're headed.

9 MR. UNGAR: -- where we're headed,

10 what the positions are, you know.

11 MS. HOFFMAN: And that's good.

12 MR. UNGAR: And even if I don't know

13 what the resolution is at least I know what

14 the views are. 

15 MS. HOFFMAN: But if you look at the

16 glass as half empty and half full we have

17 three more weeks to deal with that.

18 MR. UNGAR: Right. No, because we

19 added the time. We have more time to try to

20 work on it.

21 MS. HOFFMAN: Yes, so we have time. 

22 And I guess we should be bringing these if we
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1 have them to the meeting in Denver?

2 MR. HAGERMAN: Yes, I mean we can

3 bring those books to the meeting, happy to do

4 that.

5 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay.

6 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, that's a good

7 point. If you have your 2015 IECC books

8 please bring them in case you need to

9 reference them for our last two meets.

10 MS. HOFFMAN: Sure.

11 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay?

12 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay.

13 MR. RAMIREZ: I think --

14 MR. HAGERMAN: Any other comments?

15 MS. HOFFMAN: We thought that we --

16 Oh, go on.

17 MR. UNGAR: One other thing I heard

18 earlier --

19 MS. HOFFMAN: Sure.

20 MR. UNGAR: -- was labeling has come

21 up in a couple forms and I'm not sure where it

22 sits. I mean so there's a day question of
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1 kind of more informative labels and then there

2 was a very narrow one of sizing and it wasn't

3 clear to me that that activity processed for

4 --

5 MS. HOFFMAN: Do you want it on the

6 agenda because I think it was discussed also

7 as a recommendation or a -- compliance

8 recommendation, but we'll definitely have it

9 on the agenda.

10 MR. HAGERMAN: So could I recommend,

11 I know Lois needs to probably say something

12 about labeling, too, she put her placard up. 

13 Is there any way that you and Lois could form

14 a, just a quick little subcommittee and

15 discuss that in more detail and then bring

16 something to the next meeting or we can

17 circulate something ahead of the meeting?

18 MR. UNGAR: Yes, I'd be happy to --

19 MR. HAGERMAN: We don't want to lose

20 track of any important item that anybody feels

21 is, you know, is critical for this industry,

22 so that's not our intent to lose it.
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1 MS. HOFFMAN: So there's a little

2 subcommittee that Lois and --

3 MR. UNGAR: Yes, add it to the

4 homework.

5 MR. HAGERMAN: It needs a constituent

6 or an owner, right?

7 MS. HOFFMAN: Yes.

8 MR. HAGERMAN: And I think we found

9 the two owners.

10 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay. And the other

11 thing is is there anything else that we should

12 be covering that we haven't that we want to

13 make sure?

14 MS. STARKEY: Well we talked about

15 definitions.

16 MS. HOFFMAN: Definitions, good

17 point.

18 MS. STARKEY: And I raised my hand to

19 collect all of the definitions, the ones that

20 are in the IRC, the ones that are in the HUD

21 Code, and that's probably --

22 MS. HOFFMAN: And what --
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1 MS. STARKEY: -- you know, there

2 might be some tweaking based on what we've

3 discussed here that aren't, but I think

4 they're all covered, I mean just basically

5 getting those two together and others.

6 MS. HOFFMAN: Why don't you prepare

7 that and have it sent to all of us so we

8 could look at it, yes.

9 MS. STARKEY: Okay.

10 MS. HOFFMAN: Good, definitions. 

11 Excellent.

12 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. You know what

13 for our standards three weeks is a long time

14 between now and the next meeting, right?

15 MS. HOFFMAN: Yes.

16 MR. RAMIREZ: So if anything comes

17 up, if you think of anything, send out the

18 email, so let's stay in touch.

19 MS. HOFFMAN: Yes.

20 MR. RAMIREZ: All right, thank you

21 all for your hard work. You guys did a great

22 job and see you all in Denver.
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1 MS. HOFFMAN: Yes. And we thought

2 we'd end a little early. I know Rob Luter

3 would like to stay later, but we'll say, we're

4 going to end now. Thank you. Okay.

5 MR. HAGERMAN: Rob can always hang

6 out on the line, yes.

7 MS. HOFFMAN: I'm teasing, Rob. We

8 look forward to seeing you in Denver.

9 MR. LUTER: No worries. I'm a team

10 player.

11 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay. I know, thank

12 you very much.

13 (Simultaneous speaking)

14 MS. HOFFMAN: It's a real pleasure,

15 thanks again. All right, we're officially off

16 the air.

17 (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter

18 went off the record at 3:39 p.m.)

19

20

21

22
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50:16 51:13 246:4

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154:19,20 159:6

175:18 222:9

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175:14 257:20

286:16 292:11

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candid 298:6

capture 301:12

car 291:3

card 5:18

cards 246:7

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139:19 140:21,22

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291:11 292:10

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160:20 189:1,14

210:16 229:15

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282:11 311:21

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coefficient 92:1,18

93:8 94:16,22

99:12

coefficients 91:6

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colleague 184:6

colleagues 149:4

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collecting 297:12

color 172:16

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119:3 135:17

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243:12 312:16

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163:5,6 209:9

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150:20 155:4

184:11 196:11

217:13 255:10

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110:18 113:21

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103:13 157:8

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constraint 237:18

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large 196:3 198:21

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larger 21:2 35:5

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late 212:5

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leadership 248:3

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Louisiana 153:8

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MALE 39:6 40:16

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man 146:20

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46:13 48:19 54:4

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math 109:7 192:20

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24:16 26:14 27:18

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18:13 19:21 23:17

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20:5 21:19 26:8

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157:15 162:17

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months 220:11

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218:8 247:18

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103:12 261:3

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103:18 255:8

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40:17 42:11 44:14

44:17 50:1,1 59:4

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280:20 290:18

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54:10 55:4 59:14

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247:17 248:2

288:18 310:11

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106:12 208:9

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184:16 185:5

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194:20,22 195:19

195:20,22 196:5,5

196:12 201:16

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219:14 228:3

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153:18 155:15

160:20 162:18

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194:16 195:12

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northern 96:10

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74:16 75:21 85:20

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110:20 114:22

115:10 117:17

120:7 131:22

133:15,15 134:12

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134:22 138:16,18

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212:18 213:13,14

213:15,15 218:12

222:9 239:4 253:1

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38:1 80:4 134:11

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169:21 170:6

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271:6 272:15

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280:6 298:22

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17:10 20:7 21:19

25:14 34:20 39:11

39:15 42:19,20

43:21 44:2 45:1

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55:6,16 56:3

57:13,20,21 58:9

58:11,12,15 59:9

60:12 61:1,2,21

62:20,22 67:4,6

69:7 70:1 78:19

78:21 80:3,16,21

80:21 81:4,8

86:12 89:3,12,13

89:18 98:13,14,17

98:21 99:4 100:4

100:5 101:9,22

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121:6 124:4

129:11 130:10

131:17 133:22

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150:6,9 151:15,17

151:18,21,21

158:7 161:19

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171:16 177:5

181:14 182:3,5

183:8,10 184:3,8

185:2,4 191:20

192:16 195:16,18

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218:21 220:20,22

221:3 222:14

225:16 227:16

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9
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

C E R T I F I C A T E

This is to certify that the foregoing transcript 

In the matter of: 

Before: 

Date: 

Place: 

was duly recorded and accurately transcribed under 

my direction; further, that said transcript is a 

true and accurate record of the proceedings. 

 

 ----------------------- Court Reporter 

352

Manufactured Housing Work Group

US DOE

10-02-14

Washington, DC