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S. Hrg. 110–983 

NOMINATIONS OF HON. CAROL W. POPE AND 

THOMAS M. BECK 

HEARING 

BEFORE THE

COMMITTEE ON 

HOMELAND SECURITY AND 

GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS 

UNITED STATES SENATE 

ONE HUNDRED TENTH CONGRESS 

SECOND SESSION 

ON THE 

NOMINATIONS OF HON. CAROL W. POPE AND THOMAS M. BECK TO BE 

MEMBERS OF THE FEDERAL LABOR RELATIONS AUTHORITY 

SEPTEMBER 11, 2008 

Available via http://www.gpoaccess.gov/congress/index.html 

Printed for the use of the 

Committee on Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs 

( 

(II) 

COMMITTEE ON HOMELAND SECURITY AND GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS 

JOSEPH I. LIEBERMAN, Connecticut, Chairman 

CARL LEVIN, Michigan 

DANIEL K. AKAKA, Hawaii 

THOMAS R. CARPER, Delaware 

MARK L. PRYOR, Arkansas 

MARY L. LANDRIEU, Louisiana 

BARACK OBAMA, Illinois 

CLAIRE MCCASKILL, Missouri 

JON TESTER, Montana 

SUSAN M. COLLINS, Maine 

TED STEVENS, Alaska 

GEORGE V. VOINOVICH, Ohio 

NORM COLEMAN, Minnesota 

TOM COBURN, Oklahoma 

PETE V. DOMENICI, New Mexico 

JOHN WARNER, Virginia 

JOHN E. SUNUNU, New Hampshire 

MICHAEL L. ALEXANDER, Staff Director 

KRISTINE V. LAM, Professional Staff Member 

BRANDON L. MILHORN, Minority Staff Director and Chief Counsel 

JENNIFER L. TARR, Minority Counsel 

TRINA DRIESSNACK TYRER, Chief Clerk 

PATRICIA R. HOGAN, Publications Clerk and GPO Detailee 

LAURA W. KILBRIDE, Hearing Clerk 

(III) 

C O N T E N T S 

Opening statements: Page 

Senator Akaka .................................................................................................. 1 

WITNESSES 

THURSDAY, SEPTEMBER 11, 2008 

Hon. Eleanor Holmes Norton, Delegate of the District of Columbia, U.S. 

House of Represenatives ...................................................................................... 2 

Hon. Carol W. Pope to be a Member of the Federal Labor Relations Authority: 

Testimony .......................................................................................................... 4 

Biographical and professional information ..................................................... 17 

Responses to pre-hearing questions ................................................................ 31 

Letter from U.S. Office of Government Ethics ............................................... 42 

Thomas M. Beck to be a Member of the Federal Labor Relations Authority: 

Testimony .......................................................................................................... 5 

Biographical and professional information ..................................................... 43 

Responses to pre-hearing questions ................................................................ 51 

Letter from U.S. Office of Government Ethics ............................................... 59 

(1) 

NOMINATIONS OF HON. CAROL W. POPE AND 

THOMAS M. BECK 

THURSDAY, SEPTEMBER 11, 2008 

U.S. SENATE,

COMMITTEE ON HOMELAND SECURITY

AND GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS, 

Washington, DC. 

The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 2:35 p.m., in room 

SD–342, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. Daniel K. Akaka, 

presiding. 

Present: Senator Akaka. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR AKAKA 

Senator AKAKA. This hearing will come to order. 

Today the Committee on Homeland Security and Governmental 

Affairs meets to consider the nominations of Carol Waller Pope and 

Thomas Beck to be members of the Federal Labor Relations Authority (FLRA). Both Ms. Pope and Mr. Beck have had long careers 

dealing with labor-management relations—Ms. Pope working for 

the Federal Government at the FLRA and Mr. Beck working in the 

private sector at Jones Day. I want to welcome our nominees along 

with their families and friends to the Committee today. 

Congress acted to allow Federal workers the right to bargain collectively because labor organizations and collective bargaining are 

in the public interest. The right of employees to unionize and bargain contributes to the effective conduct of public business and facilitates the amicable settlement of workplace disputes. 

Because the FLRA is responsible for resolving disputes between 

labor unions and the government, the positions to which Ms. Pope 

and Mr. Beck have been nominated are among the most important 

to Federal employees and the ability of the Federal agencies to 

meet their missions. A well-managed organization understands the 

need to invest in its workforce. To be an employer of choice and 

promote high employee morale, employees must have input in management decisions. 

When managers vet proposed changes to working conditions with 

affected employees, they better understand their practical impact 

on an employee’s ability to do his or her job, and on workforce morale as well. 

When managers restrict the ability of the employees to bring 

their concerns to the table and try to eliminate collective bargaining, they undermine their agencies’ missions, lower employee 

morale, and make the organization an employer of last resort. 

2 

The FLRA is at a critical juncture given the shifting nature of 

the Federal labor relations system. As such, the positions to which 

Ms. Pope and Mr. Beck have been nominated will face new challenges and take on renewed importance. 

Over the past 8 years, we have seen proposed changes to Federal 

labor law at the Departments of Homeland Security and Defense 

which would have significantly impacted the FLRA and Federal 

workers. If implemented, I believe that employees at those agencies 

will not be able to have their cases decided by an impartial adjudicator. In addition, the Administration proposed additional changes 

to the Federal labor-management system government-wide through 

the Working for America Act in 2005. These changes would have 

further eroded workers’ rights. I am pleased that the Administration’s proposals have not been enacted. However, these proposals 

sent the wrong message to Federal employees. It has diminished 

labor-management relations in the Federal Government and employee morale. 

In my opinion, workplace changes are now viewed with more 

suspicion. Workplace disputes have taken on a more adversarial 

nature. The reinstatement of labor-management partnerships is essential, and I hope the next Administration will work with the 

FLRA to improve labor relations and alternative means to resolving disputes. 

The challenges facing the Federal labor-management system 

have taken a toll on the FLRA. Like other Federal agencies, FLRA 

is facing a human capital crisis. The prospect of legislative changes 

significantly altering the functions and workload of the agency 

have left the FLRA with a high number of vacancies and low employee morale. In fact, the FLRA placed last among small agencies 

in the Partnership for Public Service 2007 Best Places to Work 

rankings. The new leadership at the FLRA must take action to address the agency’s human capital crisis and make the FLRA an employer of choice. 

I look forward to discussing these issues with the nominees to 

get their views on how to improve operations at FLRA and the 

state of labor-management relations in the Federal Government. 

Ms. Pope and Mr. Beck, again, I welcome you and congratulate 

each of you on your nomination. 

Now I would like to recognize Delegate Eleanor Holmes Norton. 

We are happy to have you with us today. Welcome to the Committee. I know you have a tight schedule, so please proceed with 

your introduction of Ms. Pope. 

TESTIMONY OF HON. ELEANOR HOLMES NORTON, DELEGATE 

OF THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA, U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 

Ms. NORTON. Well, thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, and I 

know about your schedule, and I am very appreciative that you 

have made time to get to this business before recess. 

I am here to introduce Carol Pope, a Washingtonian, and a 

present member of the Federal Labor Relations Authority. You 

have spoken, I think, very well about the importance of this agency 

to hundreds of thousands of Federal employees and to the Federal 

3 

Government itself, so this is a nomination of some importance to 

the country. 

Ms. Pope has been nominated by two Presidents—President Clinton and President Bush. You are familiar with her extensive qualifications. Suffice it for me to say that she is an attorney, admitted 

to the U.S. Supreme Court, and Federal Courts of Appeals. She 

began her career in the Office of the Solicitor, Department of 

Labor, in 1979, moving almost immediately in 1980 to the FLRA, 

and has spent most of her career there, indeed, including as Assistant General Counsel. 

Mr. Chairman, it is always gratifying to see a career Federal employee rise through the ranks to become a member of the commission or of the governing authority itself. And that is what the 

record of Carol Pope has allowed her to do in the opinion of the 

two Presidents who have nominated her, and now she is being renominated for another term. I am very pleased and very proud of 

her and very pleased to offer her to you as an exceptionally well 

qualified candidate to be a member of the FLRA. 

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. 

Senator AKAKA. Well, thank you very much, Delegate Norton. I 

really appreciate your remarks and your support of Ms. Pope. 

Ms. NORTON. Thank you. 

Senator AKAKA. Thank you. 

Ms. Pope and Mr. Beck have filed responses to a biographical 

and financial questionnaire, answered pre-hearing questions submitted by the Committee, and had their financial statements reviewed by the Office of Government Ethics. Without objection, this 

information will be made part of the hearing record, with the exception of the financial data, which are on file and available for 

public inspection in the Committee offices. 

Our Committee rules require that all witnesses at nomination 

hearings give their testimony under oath. Therefore, Ms. Pope and 

Mr. Beck, I ask you to both please stand and raise your right hand. 

Do you solemnly swear that the information you are about to submit to the Committee is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing 

but the truth, so help you, God? 

Ms. POPE. I do. 

Mr. BECK. I do. 

Senator AKAKA. Thank you very much. Let it be noted in the 

record that the witnesses answered in the affirmative. 

Ms. Pope and Mr. Beck, I know that your families and friends 

are here at this time, and I am glad I had the opportunity to say 

hello to them. I want to give you the opportunity to present them 

formally to the Committee. So, Ms. Pope, will you please introduce 

your family to the Committee? 

Ms. POPE. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to introduce 

my brother-in-law, Wallace White; my sister, Lynda White, from 

Philadelphia; my niece, Evin Jethroe; and friend, Fred Grigsby. 

Thank you. 

Senator AKAKA. Thank you. Thank you very much. 

Mr. Beck, will you please introduce your family? 

Mr. BECK. Chairman Akaka, my wife, Amanda Beck, is here with 

us today. And her parents, Colonel and Mrs. Bruce J. Host, are 

4 

here from Tallahassee, Florida, and I want to thank them for coming here to be with me today. 

Senator AKAKA. Thank you. Thank you very much and welcome 

to all of you. We are happy to have you here today. I can see that 

both of you have a lot of strong support, not only from family but 

friends as well here. 

So, Ms. Pope, will you please proceed with your statement? 

TESTIMONY OF HON. CAROL W. POPE TO BE A MEMBER, 

FEDERAL LABOR RELATIONS AUTHORITY 

Ms. POPE. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Chairman Akaka, I am honored to appear before you today as 

the President’s nominee to be a member of the Federal Labor Relations Authority. I would like to thank Congresswoman Norton for 

her support and her kind words on my behalf. Finally, I would like 

to thank the staff members of the Committee for their work and 

for their assistance in scheduling this hearing. 

I appeared before this Committee over 8 years ago when I was 

first nominated and confirmed as a member of the Federal Labor 

Relations Authority. At my swearing-in, the youngest member of 

my family—my niece, Evin Jethroe—who was 10 years old at the 

time, held our family Bible. Today I am proud to say that Evin is 

here in Washington and here at this hearing because she is a 

freshman at George Washington University. I thank Evin and all 

of my family and extended family and friends for their support. 

I also want to acknowledge my colleagues and friends from the 

Federal Labor Relations Authority who are here. There are those 

in the hearing room today and many more who are watching this 

proceeding through the live video feed. I commend all of the FLRA 

employees for their interest in this process and for their commitment to the mission of the agency. 

In the 8 years that I have served as a member, the Federal sector labor relations landscape has changed. I note with sadness that 

today is the anniversary of one of the most horrific acts of domestic 

terrorism experienced in my lifetime. Federal employees, both personally and professionally, have, like the entire country, suffered 

from the impact of those tragic acts. In addition, during the last 

8 years, the Department of Homeland Security was created, which 

consolidated functions from 22 separate agencies with separate 

bargaining units and collective bargaining agreements. 

Legal issues regarding proposed personnel and labor relations 

systems at DHS as well as the Department of Defense dominated 

labor-management discussions at all levels over these years. Also 

during this time, numerous other pay and personnel reforms were 

contemplated, and some were instituted. Agency reorganizations, 

employee turnover due to the retirement bubble, and pay and personnel changes have tested and oftentimes strained the relationships between labor and management. 

I pledged at my first hearing before this Committee and I pledge 

now, if I am confirmed, to ensure that the FLRA fulfills its important mission by adjudicating disputes fairly, impartially, and expeditiously, and by producing quality decisions that enhance the stability of labor-management relations in the Federal Government. 

5 

I also pledge my support to work with my colleagues, including 

presidential appointees and others, to assist the FLRA in discharging its statutory leadership role in establishing labor-management policies and guidance throughout the Federal sector. I greatly 

appreciate the opportunity to appear with Thomas Beck and look 

forward to welcoming him as chairman to the FLRA, which has 

been my professional home for the last 28 years. 

Thank you very much. I am happy to answer any questions you 

might have. 

Senator AKAKA. Thank you very much for your statement, Ms. 

Pope. 

Now, Mr. Beck, your statement, please. 

TESTIMONY OF THOMAS M. BECK TO BE A MEMBER, FEDERAL 

LABOR RELATIONS AUTHORITY 

Mr. BECK. Chairman Akaka, thank you. 

First of all, I want to say it is an honor to be here before you 

today, and I want to thank you for holding this hearing and permitting Ms. Pope and myself to appear here, and for your warm reception today as well. Thank you very much for that. 

As you know, the FLRA has lacked a quorum since Chairman 

Cabaniss stepped down roughly 2 months ago, and I know that 

your prompt efforts since then to consider my nomination and that 

of Ms. Pope are appreciated by the people at the agency and by the 

parties that the agency serves. So thank you again for moving to 

hold this hearing. 

I also want to join Ms. Pope in thanking the Committee staff who 

did help us work through this process quite quickly, and they were 

very kind and generous with their time and helpful to me, to whom 

this process is new, in understanding the process. And I also want 

to thank the folks from the FLRA who are interested and are here 

with us today to observe what we talk about today. 

Senator Akaka, a working and productive FLRA is integral to the 

proper functioning of our Federal agencies. The FLRA’s ultimate 

mission is to foster constructive labor relations in the Federal sector. It does so when it resolves impartially and expeditiously the 

disputes that are presented to it by Federal agencies and by the 

labor organizations that represent the employees of those agencies. 

Currently, the FLRA has a backlog of close to 400 cases. If I am 

confirmed and designated chairman, my most pressing priority will 

be to address and to reduce this backlog of cases to the greatest 

extent possible, given, of course, that it seems, for the near term 

at least, the Authority will have two members rather than the full 

complement of three, most likely. And I suppose sometimes Ms. 

Pope and I will agree and sometimes we will disagree when it 

comes to the disposition of particular cases. But I believe that we 

will both work to try to do something about that backlog, which is 

larger than it should be. 

If I am confirmed and designated chairman, another priority will 

be to assess the human capital needs at the FLRA. You referred 

to this, Senator Akaka, in your own statement a few moments ago, 

and I know that this is a pressing issue at the agency. And I understand it is a pressing issue for the parties that the agency 

serves as well. 

6 

The agency staff overall is substantially reduced from where it 

was 5 years ago, and in particular, the case-writing staff, which is 

so directly involved in the agency’s core function of processing 

cases, as I understand it, is just slightly over half of what it was 

5 years ago. Now, these very significant reductions in personnel do 

not correlate, so far as I know, to any concomitant reduction in the 

agency’s statutory mission or its responsibilities. And so this raises 

the question, at least, as to whether the FLRA is adequately 

staffed. And as I sit here today, I do not know the magic number 

in terms of what the proper number of employees at the agency 

might be, but it is certainly a matter that I think warrants the immediate and serious attention of the FLRA’s next chairman. 

And I also just want to note with Ms. Pope here that I really 

very much look forward to working with her in a collaborative way 

to address these and the other challenges that face this agency. Ms. 

Pope generously reached out to me roughly a year ago when I was 

nominated and congratulated me on my nomination, and since then 

we have had several friendly, and I think productive, discussions. 

And what I have learned about Ms. Pope is that she is not just a 

bright and gracious individual, but she is also someone who really 

knows the ins and outs of this particular agency because she has 

served there in many positions over the years. And so if I am confirmed and am permitted to take on the role of chairman, I know 

that she will be an invaluable resource that I will look to to help 

me get acquainted with and understand the inner workings of this 

agency. 

With that, Mr. Chairman, I want to thank you again for holding 

the hearing today, and I will be pleased to answer any questions 

you may have. 

Senator AKAKA. Well, thank you very much for your statement, 

and I look forward to you working together. 

I will begin with the standard questions this Committee asks of 

all nominees, and so I ask for your responses to these questions. 

Is there anything you are aware of in your background that 

might present a conflict of interest with the duties of the office to 

which you have been nominated? 

Ms. POPE. No. 

Mr. BECK. No. 

Senator AKAKA. Do you know of anything, personal or otherwise, 

that would in any way prevent you from fully and honorably discharging the responsibilities of the office to which you have been 

nominated? 

Ms. POPE. No. 

Mr. BECK. No. 

Senator AKAKA. Do you agree without reservation to respond to 

any reasonable summons to appear and testify before any duly constituted Committee of Congress if you are confirmed? 

Ms. POPE. Yes, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. BECK. Yes. 

Senator AKAKA. Thank you very much for your responses. 

My first policy question is to both of you. As I mentioned in my 

opening statement, I believe that the state of labor relations in the 

Federal Government is at an all-time low. Several years ago, President Clinton established labor-management partnerships throughVerDate Nov 24 2008 14:46 Jan 19, 2010 Jkt 045576 PO 00000 Frm 00010 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 P:\DOCS\45576.TXT SAFFAIRS PsN: PAT
7 

out the Federal Government to improve cooperation between labor 

and management. In my view, these partnerships were a great success, but shortly after taking office, President Bush abolished them. 

Last year, I introduced legislation to reinstate the partnerships. 

What are your views on the use of labor-management partnerships? And what role do you believe the FLRA should play in improving labor-management relations? Ms. Pope. 

Ms. POPE. Thank you. As you stated previously, the FLRA had 

a leadership role in facilitating and assisting parties in developing 

productive labor-management partnerships after the Executive 

Order was enacted. We enjoyed a lot of success in collaboration 

with agency leadership and union leadership to facilitate the institution of partnerships as well as to facilitate the ongoing management of those partnerships. It certainly benefited the FLRA in that 

a lot of issues were resolved before cases were filed. In instances 

where the parties had filed numerous charges, we were able to employ the partnership principles to resolve some of those cases amicably without the need for additional resources of the FLRA or 

time away from the workplace for the employees engaged in those 

labor-management disputes. 

So, in my view, there has been a lot of success in the past. 

Anecdotally, I understand that some labor-management partnerships continue today voluntarily in the absence of an Executive 

Order, and I certainly would welcome any legislation that would require agencies to take another look and engage in labor-management partnerships. 

Senator AKAKA. Thank you. Mr. Beck. 

Mr. BECK. Senator Akaka, I know that President Bush rescinded 

President Clinton’s Executive Order. I do not think, however, that 

really affirmatively prohibits informal labor-management partnerships or discussions that may, and I think sometimes do, take place 

in agencies. And as a general proposition, I think more talking is 

probably good between parties who potentially could come into dispute with one another. I think it is better to talk and try not to 

let that dispute reach a head, if at all possible. And to the extent 

the management of agencies wants to talk informally and feels that 

it is a good idea to talk informally with labor organizations and 

that the labor organizations feel the same way, I think talking is 

a good thing. 

And if they can avoid even having a dispute that they bring to 

the Federal Labor Relations Authority, I think that is great for all 

concerned. Then if they have a dispute that they cannot resolve before they bring it to the Authority, there are different aspects and 

avenues for alternative dispute resolution that the Authority can 

make available. Perhaps if and when I am there, I suppose I might 

make an assessment as to whether we ought to have a little more 

of that. Perhaps we should. But with my experience in the private 

sector, more talking between the parties is, generally speaking, a 

good thing. And even if they do develop a dispute, sometimes it 

makes a lot of sense to still talk informally and see if the dispute 

can be resolved, either through bilateral negotiations or through 

mediated settlement discussions, before full-blown litigation ensues. 

As a general proposition, I am in favor of talking. 

8 

Senator AKAKA. Well, as I mentioned I have introduced legislation, S. 2197, to reinstate labor-management partnerships in the 

Federal Government. And I believe that bill would certainly help 

what you just mentioned in providing a process for talking to continue on these problems. 

Mr. Beck, you have had extensive experience in the private sector representing corporations in disputes with labor unions. Will 

you please explain how you will make the shift from representing 

management in such disputes to being a neutral adjudicator? 

Mr. BECK. Yes, Senator. Not an unexpected question given my 

background. It is true that I have spent the greater bulk of my 

legal career advocating for employers in the private sector when 

they have had disputes with their employees or with labor unions, 

and sometimes with the government as well. I was hired to do a 

job as an advocate, and I did it, hopefully fairly well most of the 

time, and had a little bit of success at that. But I understand full 

well that the job that I am nominated for is a different job, and 

it is a job where I am not being paid to be an advocate. I am being 

paid to try to be, as best I can, an impartial decider of cases in my 

role as a member of the Authority looking at cases that are presented to the Authority. 

I am not ideological on this, Senator. My law firm made a policy 

decision many years ago before I arrived that we would represent 

management, and as far as I know, we have never represented 

labor unions. I certainly have not personally. But it is also true 

that I have never represented Federal agencies either, and so as 

I look at the job of member and chairman of the Federal Labor Relations Authority—I have never represented a labor union as an 

advocate. I have never represented a Federal agency as an advocate. And I suppose one might analogize in some ways the management of Federal agencies to the management of private sector employers that I have represented. But to me, Senator, a Federal 

agency is really a different animal from a private sector employer. 

I don’t equate the two or really view them philosophically as 

equivalents. 

And so this really will be a new milieu for me, getting into the 

Federal sector with Federal agencies and Federal sector labor 

unions. And so I am really quite confident I will be able to be impartial and look at these cases that are presented to me. 

One more comment about my work in the private sector. I must 

say, although I have been doing it for several years, I am far from 

coming to a conclusion that all management is made up of good 

guys or all unions and union members are good guys, or the reverse. I have seen management be good guys and bad guys sometimes in different circumstances, and I have seen labor unions be 

good guys and, frankly, bad guys sometimes, too. And so I just do 

not really have a view that one is always right or one is always 

wrong. 

Senator AKAKA. Mr. Beck, no organization can succeed without 

investing in its human capital. As you know, the FLRA placed 

last—and I mentioned that in my opening statement—in the most 

recent Best Places to Work rankings by the Partnership for Public 

Service, and it has a high number of vacancies. Since President 

Bush has indicated that he would designate you as chairman of the 

9 

FLRA if you are confirmed, please explain your strategy for addressing the FLRA’s human capital challenges and improving employee morale. 

Mr. BECK. Well, Senator, I do know that is one of the most important challenges that is facing this agency, and I think I noted 

in my opening remarks that there has been a substantial reduction 

in the personnel at this agency over the last few years, and you 

noted that as well. And I am very well aware of the study of small 

agencies in which the Authority, the FLRA, ranked dead last. It 

will absolutely be my mission to do something about that. 

Obviously, I am not there yet, and so I do not think I can lay 

out in great detail exactly how I would do it step by step, but I 

must tell you that what I want to do, if and when I arrive at the 

Authority, is to go on a listening tour, if you will, and that is kind 

of a trite way to put it, perhaps, but I really want to talk to Ms. 

Pope in great detail about what she thinks is going on at this agency and what needs to be done in terms of human capital and other 

challenges. And I want to talk to the staff at all levels at the FLRA 

and find out what they think is going right and what they think 

is going wrong right now and what can we do about that. 

In my experience, one way to improve employee morale and to 

get employees and staff on your side is to just really communicate 

in an open and fair way with them and let them know that you 

care about what they have to say and that you respect what they 

have to say. And I don’t suppose I would always agree with what 

everyone on the staff says. I am sure there would be a great many 

different views and opinions about priorities and about what is 

working and what is not. But I intend to collect as much information as I can from the people who have been there much longer 

than I have been—because I have not been there at all, frankly— 

and try to find out what is going on and what we can do to improve 

morale. If morale is so poor, why is it so poor? And what is within 

our power to do to improve that? And I do not really know the answer in detail right now as I sit here, but I do know I am going 

to figure it out when I get over there. And I am going to look to 

the people, the person right next to me and the other people who 

are there, who know about what is going on in that agency and let 

them know I want to know what they think. We will do whatever 

we can within our power and within our budget to try to increase 

morale and make this, as you said in your opening remarks, an employer of choice, an employer that people want to go to, rather than 

an employer that people realize is last on the bottom of the employee morale list and so maybe they are not really eager to work 

there. 

Senator AKAKA. Thank you. 

Ms. Pope, you have been working at the FLRA since 1980. What 

do you believe are the biggest human capital challenges facing the 

FLRA? And what steps do you believe need to be taken to address 

these challenges and improve employee morale? 

Ms. POPE. The biggest challenge in my view is the human capital 

issue. I believe what has happened over the years is the extensive 

vacancies and extended vacancies over a number of years at all levels have impacted morale. There is a real crisis, if you will, with 

regard to whether we have the appropriate level of staff and in 

10 

what positions to get our job done, to accomplish our mission effectively and efficiently. 

What I have done over the years is to work with my staff to try 

to produce timely, quality decisions to meet the performance goals 

of the agency. I look forward to working with Mr. Beck, should he 

become chairman and we are both confirmed, to engage collaboratively to address the issues. One of the things that the survey 

talked about in terms of improving morale is the need for employee 

engagement. So I am very happy to hear his views with regard to 

how to address morale because I do believe and share the view that 

getting the stakeholders into the room and hearing their views and 

sharing information regarding budget constraints—getting employee engagement, developing strategic plans and performance 

goals, and creating the understanding that management is interested in giving them the tools to accomplish those goals—will go a 

long way in terms of improving employee morale at the agency and 

employee satisfaction. 

I have been at the agency for 28 years, and it is disheartening 

to know that we rank last. It is disheartening to know that we are 

possibly an agency that cannot retain or recruit the best and the 

brightest to come to work with us. But I do know the FLRA has 

an important mission and one that is more critical as we move forward with potential pay reform and personnel changes. 

So I look forward to working with Mr. Beck to address the issues 

and the challenges facing the agency. 

Senator AKAKA. Thank you for that. 

Other than issues relating to human capital, what do each of you 

believe are the biggest challenges facing the FLRA? And what 

steps do you plan to take to address them? 

Ms. POPE. Mr. Beck referred to the issue that we have a significant backlog of cases in the agency, so the biggest challenge, in my 

view, is the fact that currently, because of staffing issues and other 

issues, we are not meeting our own performance goals. We are not 

providing our customers timely, quality resolution of their disputes. 

So I would like to work together with the chairman to address 

those challenges, to develop strategies to bring the case writers and 

the senior management in the room to talk about how best to develop and look at our work processes, to see where we can improve 

our productivity and address the quality and timeliness of our decisions. 

Senator AKAKA. Thank you. Mr. Beck. 

Mr. BECK. Senator, I did mention that backlog, and I think it is 

something that we need to take a very immediate and very serious 

look at. Let me put it this way: One of the questions I want to consider, if I am confirmed and go to the agency, is whether we can 

do a little more at the agency to help the development of the kind 

of disputes that they are bringing to us. One way to permit us to 

work on the existing backlog is to see if we can reduce the number 

of cases that are being filed. I don’t know, but within the parameters of the statute, we may be able to do a little bit more to try 

to help agencies and their labor organizations to get along a little 

bit better, to play a little bit more nicely, to come to agreement on 

more issues that otherwise might become cases that come to the 

Authority for decision. 

11 

And as I understand it, the agency has several methods of alternative dispute resolution that can be brought to bear once a case 

is filed. I wonder if the statute permits us to reach out just a little 

bit further, to the point even before cases are filed. I honestly don’t 

know the answer to that, perhaps the answer is no. But in a sense, 

the Authority seems to me under the statute to have some residual 

authority that might go beyond simply deciding the cases that are 

presented to it, and we may be able to provide some training or 

some education and information to managers, employees, and labor 

organizations that are out there in the Federal sector so that we 

can maybe avoid having some of the disputes arise in the first 

place. 

Senator AKAKA. Thank you. Over the past 8 years, there have 

been numerous proposals to change the structure of the FLRA and 

its role and responsibilities. Both the Departments of Defense and 

Homeland Security proposed having internal agency panels decide 

labor cases instead of the FLRA. There was also a proposal by the 

Senior Executives Association to merge the FLRA, the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC), and the Merit Systems 

Protection Board (MSPB) into a single Federal employee appeals 

agency. 

What are your views on these proposals and do you believe that 

there are any structural changes that need to be made to the FLRA 

or the process for adjudicating unfair labor practices? Ms. Pope. 

Ms. POPE. In my experience, it is the FLRA that is uniquely 

poised and trained to be the neutral arbiter of Federal workplace 

disputes. So I was concerned, obviously, about the legislation you 

mentioned that would have narrowed our jurisdiction in a lot of 

cases and eliminated our jurisdiction in many others. 

I continue to believe that it is the FLRA in its current structure 

that should continue to have the jurisdiction over Federal workplace disputes. I believe with budget constraints—certainly internally the FLRA has an ongoing obligation to look to ensure that 

its structure is the most efficient, the most productive. Internally 

we may need to assess whether we have the right people in the 

right jobs, in the right positions, and the right work processes to 

get the job done effectively. There should be an ongoing strategic 

assessment which includes employees and their representatives 

and career and presidential management at all levels. 

Senator AKAKA. Well, what about the process for adjudicating 

unfair labor practices? 

Ms. POPE. I have not taken a personal position on the merger of 

the agencies, but I have been a part of the agency in the past when 

that has been presented as an issue to the FLRA by Congress. We 

worked with those other agencies to address and identify the areas 

where we have separate and distinct jurisdiction and separate and 

distinct expertise to address those issues. So, in my view, the work 

process that is currently a part of our regulatory structure is sufficient. 

Now, one of the things we have done over the years is to look 

to see where our regulations could be revised to better serve the 

parties. And we have made changes, introducing formal Alternative 

Dispute Resolution (ADR) principles and policies, as well as proVerDate Nov 24 2008 14:46 Jan 19, 2010 Jkt 045576 PO 00000 Frm 00015 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 P:\DOCS\45576.TXT SAFFAIRS PsN: PAT
12 

viding opportunities for training, education, and facilitation in the 

area of representation cases and petitions before they are filed. 

So, our own regulatory process could be reviewed and should be 

reviewed to address how charges are filed and where they are filed. 

And moving further to electronic filing and managing technology to 

more effectively handle our caseload and more effectively enable 

the parties to know how to file charges and what their rights are 

is something that I would endorse for internal review. 

Senator AKAKA. Mr. Beck. 

Mr. BECK. Senator, the proposals and the possibilities that you 

referred to—of course it is not in vogue to use this phrase, but I 

will anyway—would really be above my pay grade. If I become a 

member and chairman of the Authority, it will not be up to me to 

say whether such a merger should take place. Of course, that will 

be between the Congress and the next President. 

As I look at that proposal that you mentioned of really merging 

the agencies and creating sort of a monolithic agency to deal with 

Federal sector employment issues, in my own mind I immediately 

think about the situation I am very familiar with in the private 

sector. And as you know, the FLRA is modeled on the National 

Labor Relations Board (NLRB), and in most ways structurally it 

functions like the National Labor Relations Board. And the EEOC 

also exists to be available to private sector employers and employees, and it deals with their disputes as well. 

And so we really have an analogous system of divided responsibilities between the agencies in the private sector that I am very 

familiar with, and I am not aware of anyone who is seriously suggesting that the NLRB and the EEOC should be merged to deal 

with private sector employment issues. And based on my experience, it would not be a good idea. And so that is really the best 

viewpoint I think I could bring to bear my own self on the suggestion of merging the agencies in terms of Federal sector employment 

matters. 

I suppose that as a matter of policy, of course, it would be for 

the Congress to make the policy decisions, but I suppose merging 

the agencies into a monolithic agency to deal with all issues might 

have the apparent virtue of simplicity. But I suppose the virtue of 

expertise might be lost as well, because as Ms. Pope said, the 

FLRA has particular expertise, and we all know that the MSPB 

has certain particular expertise as well, and it has a certain portfolio of responsibilities which is distinct. And the same is true for 

the EEOC. 

And so, as I think this through while I am sitting here, it strikes 

me that quite a bit of beneficial expertise might be lost. 

Senator AKAKA. In addition to proposing changes to the process 

for adjudicating unfair labor practices, the Administration has proposed changes to the substance of Federal labor law: The rights of 

labor unions, the rights of management, what matters can be negotiated, and what remedies are available. 

What are your thoughts on these proposed changes? And what 

changes, if any, do you believe need to be made to the rights and 

protections afforded to employees and management under the Federal labor management statute? 

13 

Mr. BECK. I have made Ms. Pope answer every question first, so 

I guess I will take this one. My answer, unfortunately, has to be 

very brief to that, Senator, and I am certainly not one to duck 

questions. But I must say that I have given a lot more thought in 

recent years to private sector labor relations than I have to the 

somewhat different nuances of Federal sector relations. As I sit 

here, I just do not really feel like I am capable of opining on whether certain substantive changes to rights and responsibilities of 

management and labor would be a good idea or a bad idea. 

If I go to the agency and I learn something more than I do know 

about Federal sector labor law in particular, I will be more than 

happy to come speak with you. I would love to testify again, Senator, if you think I might have anything of value to say on this subject, or meet with you and other Members of the Committee informally. Once I have developed a little more expertise on these questions, I certainly am quite willing to be a resource to you if that 

would ever be of benefit. 

Senator AKAKA. Any comment, Ms. Pope? 

Ms. POPE. I do not have any statutory changes and amendments 

that I would identify. I note that the statute has served us well for 

almost 30 years, and we have a significant body of case law elucidating the statute and the rights and responsibilities of the parties. 

To the extent there may be pay and personnel changes that may 

test the statute that certainly were not contemplated when the 

statute was enacted, it will be up to the FLRA and their interpretation of the law to apply it to any current situations that were not 

contemplated at the time the statute was enacted. And with respect to other changes, the FLRA, at the direction of the chairman, 

at the direction of the Administration, would address and look to 

speak to any possible amendments that may be proposed by Congress or the Administration. 

Senator AKAKA. Well, as you know, the chairman of the FLRA 

is to be the chief executive and administrative officer of the Authority. The Department of Justice Office of Legal Counsel has issued 

opinions stating that under such a designation the chairs of boards 

and commissions, like the FLRA, are responsible for the day-to-day 

administration of the policies of the boards. Substantive policymaking and regulatory authority is vested in the boards as a 

whole. However, these opinions recognize that any number of the 

day-to-day business practices may affect the board’s policies and 

regulatory authority. 

Could each of you comment on whether you draw the line between the responsibilities of a member of the FLRA and the chairman of the FLRA? Ms. Pope. 

Ms. POPE. As a sitting member, I feel like I should go first in 

that answer. My response is I begin with the statute, which clearly 

delineates the role of a chairman and the role of a member. I believe and have benefited from Administrations that looked to be 

collaborative with members in addressing our statutory responsibility to provide leadership with respect to Federal sector labormanagement relations. Also, there is a clearly defined role as the 

budget officer, having fiduciary responsibility, that rests with the 

chairman. 

Senator AKAKA. Mr. Beck. 

14 

Mr. BECK. Yes, Senator. There are some clear distinctions, and 

I look forward, if I am confirmed, to learning more about the precise contours of those distinctions. But it is clear that Congress intended a distinction in some respects between the member who 

serves as chairman and the other non-chairman members of the 

FLRA. The statute was passed in the late 1970s originally and 

then was amended 4 or 5 years later because, as originally passed, 

it had not designated the chairman as the CEO and administrative 

officer. 

And I think that certain Members of Congress, based on my review of the legislative history, such as Senator Stevens, for example, and Congresswoman Schroeder, came to the floor and said that 

we think that there is a lack of accountability and there is a certain amount of inefficiency going on at this relatively new agency 

because there is no individual who is clearly and unequivocally 

tasked with, say, budgetary responsibilities, human resources responsibilities, and purchasing responsibilities. So they did at that 

time add in that language that the chairman is the CEO and administrative officer. So, clearly, the chairman is supposed to have 

some duties and some responsibilities that are distinct from and 

greater than what the members do in terms of just managing the 

agency. 

With that said, though, while one person needs to be accountable, one person does not need to make all decisions from on high 

unilaterally without any input from anyone else. And that is not 

my management style, and I do not think, generally speaking, it 

is an effective management style. And so I don’t know what others 

who have gone before me may have done, but what I would like 

to try to do, if I become the chairman of this agency, is to work 

with Ms. Pope, and if we get another member at the agency, to 

work with that member as well, and to work with the staff and 

others in a very kind of open-door, communicative, collaborative 

way so that as much as possible we can get some kind of consensus, or near consensus, on what needs to be done, at least on 

the big picture items. 

And if somebody has to decide how many paper clips are we 

going to buy this year, I will be happy to decide that, and probably 

other folks don’t need to be bothered with that sort of question. But 

when it comes to major questions about managing this agency, I 

think that doing so in as collaborative a way as possible is obviously the way to go, and that is particularly true for me, frankly, 

because I have not spent the time at this agency that some other 

people have, that Ms. Pope has, for example. 

Senator AKAKA. Well, I want to thank both of you for your responses. Before we close I would like to ask if either of you have 

any further remarks you would like to make about FLRA or your 

position in it, and what you would like to see come about at the 

FLRA. Ms. Pope. 

Ms. POPE. I have always held in high regard the FLRA and its 

mission and the responsibilities of the presidential appointees at 

the agency. I look forward to continuing in that role, if confirmed, 

and would be extremely excited and proud to be a part of turning 

around the agency, so that if I ever had the fortune of coming before you again, we are not ranked 31st of 31 small agencies, but 

15 

we are ranked No. 1. So I am excited about the future of the agency and look forward to being a part of it, if confirmed. 

Senator AKAKA. Mr. Beck. 

Mr. BECK. I want to associate myself with Ms. Pope’s remarks 

and say essentially the same thing, Mr. Chairman. I think some 

things need to be done at this agency, clearly, and I look forward, 

if confirmed, to figuring out in short order what they are and doing 

the best that all of us can to make whatever changes are going to 

bring this agency up in terms of not just employee satisfaction and 

engagement, but in terms of processing cases, carrying out our core 

function of processing cases and resolving impartially and promptly 

the disputes that the parties bring to the agency. And I would like 

to also ask that maybe if you don’t mind too much, I will come 

knock on your door at some point, and maybe some of the other 

Members of this Committee who are interested in what is going on 

at the FLRA because you have been looking at this agency longer 

than I have. And I would really value, not only collaborating and 

hearing from the people who are at the agency, like Ms. Pope and 

other folks, folks who are on the staff over there, but I would like 

to maybe be able to sit down, formally or informally, with you, or 

any other Members who might be interested, to get your views as 

well. 

Senator AKAKA. Well, let me respond to you and tell you my door 

is open. 

Mr. BECK. Thank you, Senator. 

Senator AKAKA. And I want to thank you both for your responses, and I feel your mission is a very important one. It is important because, as you succeed, there will be more productivity, 

people will be working better, and that is why we are all here. And 

so I want to thank each of you for being here today and congratulate you again on your nominations. I have no further questions at 

this time. 

The hearing record will remain open until the close of business 

tomorrow for Members of this Committee to submit additional 

statements or questions they may have. I know you both are anxious for your nominations to move forward. It is my hope that the 

Committee and the Senate will take action in the near future. 

Again, I want to thank you for bringing your families and supporters here today, and thank you again for your responses. This 

will be helpful to us in dealing with your nominations. And I will 

talk to the Committee and try to make every effort to move them 

as quickly as we can. 

Ms. POPE. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. BECK. Thank you, Senator. 

Senator AKAKA. Thank you very much. This hearing is adjourned. 

[Whereupon, at 3:30 p.m., the Committee was adjourned.] 

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