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SUBCOMMITTEE HEARING ON

THE IMPACT OF INCREASING

GAS PRICES ON SMALL

BUSINESSES

SUBCOMMITTEE ON INVESTIGATIONS 

AND OVERSIGHT 

COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS 

UNITED STATES HOUSE OF 

REPRESENTATIVES

ONE HUNDRED TENTH CONGRESS

SECOND SESSION

APRIL 9, 2008

Serial Number 110-82

Printed for the use of the Committee on Small Business

(

Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.access.gpo.gov/congress/house 

HOUSE COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS 

NYDIA M. VELA ́ ZQUEZ, New York, Chairwoman 

HEATH SHULER, North Carolina 

CHARLIE GONZA ́ LEZ, Texas 

RICK LARSEN, Washington 

RAUL GRIJALVA, Arizona 

MICHAEL MICHAUD, Maine 

MELISSA BEAN, Illinois 

HENRY CUELLAR, Texas 

DAN LIPINSKI, Illinois 

GWEN MOORE, Wisconsin 

JASON ALTMIRE, Pennsylvania 

BRUCE BRALEY, Iowa 

YVETTE CLARKE, New York 

BRAD ELLSWORTH, Indiana 

HANK JOHNSON, Georgia 

JOE SESTAK, Pennsylvania 

BRIAN HIGGINS, New York 

MAZIE HIRONO, Hawaii 

STEVE CHABOT, Ohio, Ranking Member 

ROSCOE BARTLETT, Maryland 

SAM GRAVES, Missouri 

TODD AKIN, Missouri 

BILL SHUSTER, Pennsylvania 

MARILYN MUSGRAVE, Colorado 

STEVE KING, Iowa 

JEFF FORTENBERRY, Nebraska 

LYNN WESTMORELAND, Georgia 

LOUIE GOHMERT, Texas 

DAVID DAVIS, Tennessee 

MARY FALLIN, Oklahoma 

VERN BUCHANAN, Florida

MICHAEL DAY, Majority Staff Director 

ADAM MINEHARDT, Deputy Staff Director 

TIM SLATTERY, Chief Counsel 

KEVIN FITZPATRICK, Minority Staff Director

Subcommittee on Investigations and Oversight

JASON ALTMIRE, PENNSYLVANIA, Chairman 

CHARLIE GONZA ́ LEZ, Texas 

RAUL GRIJALVA, Arizona 

MARY FALLIN, Oklahoma, Ranking 

LYNN WESTMORELAND, Georgia

(II) 

C O N T E N T S 

OPENING STATEMENTS 

Page

Altmire, Hon. Jason ................................................................................................. 1

Fallin, Hon. Mary .................................................................................................... 2

WITNESSES

PANEL I: 

Williford, Mr. Tim, Chairman Government Affairs Committee, PlumbingHeating-Cooling Contractors - National Association (PHCC) .......................... 4

Orza, Mr. Vincent F., Jr., Dean, Meinders School of Business, Oklahoma 

City University, Oklahoma City, OK ................................................................. 6

Urbanchuk, Mr. John, Director, LECG, LLC, Wayne, PA ................................... 8

Graff, Mr. Michael J., President & CEO, Graff Trucking, Inc., Natrona 

Heights, PA ........................................................................................................... 10

Gilberti, Mr. Gary, Chesapeake Rehab Equipment, Pittsburgh, PA ................... 12

APPENDIX 

Prepared Statements: 

Altmire, Hon. Jason ................................................................................................. 29

Fallin, Hon. Mary .................................................................................................... 31

Williford, Mr. Tim, Chairman Government Affairs Committee, PlumbingHeating-Cooling Contractors - National Association (PHCC) .......................... 32

Orza, Mr. Vincent F., Jr., Dean, Meinders School of Business, Oklahoma 

City University, Oklahoma City, OK ................................................................. 36

Urbanchuk, Mr. John, Director, LECG, LLC, Wayne, PA ................................... 44

Graff, Mr. Michael J., President & CEO, Graff Trucking, Inc., Natrona 

Heights, PA ........................................................................................................... 49

Gilberti, Mr. Gary, Chesapeake Rehab Equipment, Pittsburgh, PA ................... 52

(III) 

(1)

SUBCOMMITTEE HEARING ON THE 

IMPACT OF INCREASING GAS PRICES 

ON SMALL BUSINESSES 

Wednesday, April 9, 2008

U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, 

COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS, 

Washington, DC. 

The Subcommittee met, pursuant to call, at 10:00 a.m., in Room 

1539 Longworth House Office Building, Hon. Jason Altmire [chairman of the Subcommittee] presiding. 

Present: Representatives Altmire, Gonzaez, and Gohmert. 

Also Present: Representatives Ellsworth and Fallin. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF CHAIRMAN ALTMIRE 

Chairman ALTMIRE. The hearing will come to order. I call the 

Subcommittee hearing to order to examine the impact of increasing 

gas prices on small businesses. Gasoline and diesel fuel prices have 

been climbing at unprecedented rates. And today we will hear 

about how these rising costs are negatively impacting our nation’s 

entrepreneurs. 

With small firms being the nation’s single largest employer, we 

need to do everything we can to help them thrive. Just a couple 

of weeks ago, oil reached an all-time high of $111 a barrel. According to AAA, the national average for a gallon of gasoline is now a 

record $3.33. In my own western Pennsylvania district, I have seen 

gas prices approach $4 a gallon. 

I hope today’s hearing will give us a better understanding of how 

small firms are being impacted by these rising energy prices. I am 

sure we will hear from our panel of witnesses that the problem is 

widespread and impacts both consumers and small businesses. 

Continued energy price hikes mean sacrifices in a local business’ 

bottom line. These costs can determine whether a construction firm 

is available to invest in a new storage facility and whether a family 

farmer can afford fertilizer for this year’s crops. 

The situation creates hardships in virtually every industry 

throughout the nation. While it has hit some sectors harder than 

others, it affects businesses ranging from hotels and restaurants to 

the local grocery store that has to raise the price of bread that families depend on. 

Today we will hear from small businesses coping with rising energy costs. We also have experts with us who will discuss the increasing demand, limited supplies, and market conditions associVerDate 0ct 09 2002 14:50 May 22, 2008 Jkt 033615 PO 00000 Frm 00005 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 G:\CLERK SB-LD\HEARINGS\TRANSCRIPTS\41491.TXT LEANN
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ated with the price increases and what solutions are available to 

combat this growing problem. 

Unfortunately, these trends deflate small business owners’ expectations for expansion. In fact, two-thirds of entrepreneurs are anticipating lower profits this year when compared to previous years 

due in large part to increased energy costs. 

Also at issue are small businesses that use energy resources on 

a daily basis to meet their transportation needs. Take our nation’s 

trucking companies. The trucking industry is on pace to spend an 

unprecedented $135 billion on diesel costs alone. This amount is 

$22 billion more than what was reported just last year. Such rapidly rising costs pose a severe long-term challenge to U.S. small 

businesses. 

There are few options when it comes to confronting these costs 

as many companies are simply unable to reduce their energy consumption. Rising costs usually result in less available capital to expand small businesses, which spells bad news for our economy as 

a whole. 

To help ease the burden of increasing costs, we must consider 

and enact long-term solutions. There needs to be continued investment in renewable energy and recognition that alternative sources 

of fuel are a vital part of addressing the problem. 

We also need to continue providing business owners with the 

necessary resources to develop and purchase greater energy-efficient technologies. That is exactly why this Committee last year 

shepherded the Small Energy-Efficient Business Act through Congress. Now that act assists small businesses through investment in 

new, renewable, and green technologies. 

The law also expands traditional SBA loan programs by broadening their criteria to help address energy needs. While this may 

not be the catch-all solution, that act took decisive steps toward addressing the energy needs of small firms. And we intend to continue that work. 

Our nation’s entrepreneurs deserve our every effort to provide 

them with the tools they need. My hope is that today’s hearing will 

be the first opportunity to discuss some of these challenges and 

offer solutions to assist our country’s small businesses in dealing 

with the current grim circumstances. 

At this time I would welcome our new ranking member to this 

Committee, my good friend and colleague, Mary Fallin from Oklahoma. So I would yield to the Ranking Member Fallin for her opening statement. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF MS. FALLIN 

Ms. FALLIN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And welcome to all of our 

guest panelists today. It is good to have you here. We appreciate 

your time to come and visit with our Committee. And thank you, 

Mr. Chairman, for having me as a new ranking member. It is a 

pleasure to be on this Committee. And, of course, small business 

is something that is near and dear to my heart. 

Let me just start out by talking about our consumers. Just like 

consumers, small business owners are feeling the financial squeeze 

of rising energy costs. And in most cases, these small businesses 

3

are having to reexamine their business plans, their future investments, the bottom line profitability, and even job creation. 

And it is very imperative that Congress needs to investigate possible steps to lower the cost for small business for fuel; encourage 

the use of energy conservation measures; bolster our national economy; and, of course, to reduce our dependency on energy from foreign markets. 

I would like to just say thank you to all of our special witnesses 

that have joined us here today to come and provide information 

that will be very important in helping us look at policy as a nation 

and especially would like to welcome a fellow Oklahoman, Dr. 

Vince Orza, who is dean of the Meinders School of Business, also 

an academic scholar and TV commentator, ran for a couple of political offices. And we are glad to have him come today to lend his 

expertise. 

Small businesses are the economic engine that drives our economy and job creation. Small businesses feed our families and provide goods and services to our community. They serve as seeds of 

innovation, producing 13 to 14 times more patents per employee 

than large firms. And small businesses participate in all major industries and represent 99.7 percent of all employees and employ 50 

percent of all private sector workers. 

In addition, 39 percent of the high tech workers, such as scientists, engineers, computer workers, are all employed for the most 

part by small businesses. Rising gasoline and diesel fuel prices are 

impacting the economy from individual consumers, who buy from 

small businesses, to international conglomerates, who do business 

with them. 

Small businesses are consistently ranked as one of the hardesthit sectors when it comes to rising fuel prices. These rising costs 

have per family impacted the day-to-day routine of running a business. Whether it is the cost of the transportation of goods and services, the operation of machinery, the mileage in employee expense 

reports, delayed receivables, or even tighter access to capital and 

loans, small businesses are feeling the pinch. 

Many large firms can pass on the increased fuel cost to their consumers, but because small business concerns often operate on 

razor-thin margins and very competitive pricing, passing on the 

fuel cost increase to their consumers could result in a loss of sales 

and in the long term even going out of business. 

Some small businesses have found ways to observe fuel costs and 

employ energy conservation steps. However, the practice of absorbing fuel costs cannot be sustained in the long term. 

The impact of high fuel costs upon some small businesses, like 

trucking and charter bus companies, can be greater than other 

market segments. Rising fuel costs have also become a barrier to 

entry for people planning to start a small business or even expand 

a small business. 

Well, this nation was built on the backs of hardworking small 

business owners. We have benefited greatly from a rich history of 

American innovation and entrepreneur spirit. We must do all that 

we can as a nation to support our small business owners and maintain an economic environment that is vibrant and rewards hard 

work and encourages sound investment. 

4

Now, Mr. Chairman, I look forward to working with you on this 

important issue and again want to thank all of you for being here 

today. And thank you for your testimony. I will yield back the balance of my time.

Chairman ALTMIRE. Thank the Ranking Member. And we will 

now move to testimony from the witnesses. 

Let me just explain the timer real quick. You will each have five 

minutes for your remarks. You will see the green light for the first 

four minutes. When the light turns yellow, that means you are into 

your last minute. Please sum up your remarks. And then red light 

means time is up. 

So at this point I want to introduce our first witness, Mr. Tim 

Williford. He is the Chairman of the Plumbing- Heating-Cooling 

Contractors - National Association. As Chairman, he leads the Government Relations Committee study of federal legislation and the 

recommendations to the PHCC Board of Directors on positions on 

industry issues. 

Established in 1883, the PHCC is the oldest trade association in 

the construction industry and is dedicated to the promotion, advancement, education, and training of the industry for the protection of environment and health, safety, and comfort of society. 

Today PHCC Has more than 4,100 contractor members from 

open and union shops, who work in residential, commercial, new 

construction, industrial, and service and repair industry segments. 

Welcome, Mr. Williford. We look forward to your testimony. 

STATEMENT OF MR. TIM WILLIFORD, CHAIRMAN GOVERNMENT AFFAIRS COMMITTEE, PLUMBING-HEATING-COOLING 

CONTRACTORS - NATIONAL ASSOCIATION 

Mr. WILLIFORD. Good morning. Thank you, Chairman Altmire 

and Ranking Member Fallin and members of the Subcommittee, for 

the opportunity to speak to you today regarding the impact rising 

fuel prices are having on small businesses. 

My name, as you said, is Tim Williford. And I come before you 

today as a small business owner and a representative of the over 

4,000 member companies of the Plumbing-Heating-Cooling Contractors - National Association. 

I currently serve as Vice President of Finance and Administration for Southern Piping Company, a mechanical contractor founded by my father over 40 years ago in Wilson, North Carolina. 

I also serve as the Chairman of the Government Relations Committee of the PHCC. PHCC is the oldest trade association in the 

construction industry and, as I mentioned, represents over 4,000 

contractor members across the country, the majority of whom are 

small businesses. 

Anyone who has built or helped to operate a business, particularly a small one, will tell you that it is not an easy task. This has 

never been more true than today. Remaining profitable has become 

increasingly difficult with the rise in fuel prices. 

Unfortunately, the slowing economy has had a profoundly negative impact on all aspects of our industry. Data for February 

showed a decline of three-tenths of a percent in construction spending, marking the industry’s fifth straight monthly decline. 

5

As a result, contractors are searching for ways to trim overhead. 

These efforts are, of course, complicated by the increased fuel 

prices. Recently PHCC solicited members’ comments regarding the 

impact of fuel prices on their operations. And their response was 

overwhelming. Over 90 percent said their businesses will suffer 

this year because of increased gas prices. 

In the past, many service and repair contractors tried to pass the 

increases on to consumers in one way or another. My opinion, however, is that consumers have probably reached their limit in terms 

of paying for the increased cost of contractors. 

Service contractors responded to our queries with thoughtful in- sight. One cited spending $47,000 in 2005 on gas and oil for a fleet 

of 16 trucks. In 2006, that number was up to $62,000 and then 

again up to $70,000 in 2007. This year they are on track to spend 

$88,000 after budgeting only $66,000. Rising gas prices will siphon 

$22,000 off their bottom line unless they can find a way to pass 

that increase along. 

For contractors engaged in construction, the actual installation of 

plumbing and mechanical systems, gas prices pose a particular 

risk. For projects lasting a year or more, contractors must make an 

informed estimate as to what prices may be in 12 or 15 months. 

Contractors build this price into their overhead cost for a particular project. And if the price exceeds what they estimated, they 

must absorb that cost, often causing a tremendous financial strain. 

One contractor told us, ‘‘In January of 2007, our fuel bill was $13,000, in January 2008 $20,000. The sad news is we drove only 

150 miles more during the same time frame.’’ Annually that is an 

increase of $84,000, or 53 percent. 

At Southern Piping Company, we spent a million dollars for gas 

and oil last year. And we expect an increase of 250 to 500 thousand 

dollars this year. Even a small change in the price of gas can have 

a significant impact. We know that for every increase of 10 cents 

a gallon in the price of gasoline, we incur an additional $35,000 in 

overhead. 

As a result, we and other contractors are evaluating ways to reduce gasoline consumption. And we certainly make every effort to 

be fuel- efficient. However, aside from those measures, our options 

are limited. Therefore, we are forced to consider reducing our contributions to our employees’ retirement accounts, increasing the 

amount that employees must pay for their health insurance, and 

cutting other employee benefits. These are painful, painful reductions. 

We compete very hard for employees coming from a limited talent pool. And one of the ways that we do that is to offer a good 

benefits package. Rising gasoline prices put those benefits in jeopardy. 

At our company, for example, we recently shelved plans to implement a wellness program and postponed additional spending on our 

safety program. These are crucial initiatives to our company as we 

try to maintain a safe, healthy, and productive workforce. 

In the end, Southern Piping Company is no different than the 

rest of PHCC’s members. And PHCC’s members are certainly reflective of small businesses across the country. Gasoline and other 

petroleum products enable small businesses to remain the backVerDate 0ct 09 2002 14:50 May 22, 2008 Jkt 033615 PO 00000 Frm 00009 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 G:\CLERK SB-LD\HEARINGS\TRANSCRIPTS\41491.TXT LEANN
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bone of our economy. As those prices climb ever higher, the fortunes of America’s small businesses grow more dim and, with 

them, the fortunes of the economy as a whole. 

Thank you for your time and your consideration. And I look forward to your questions. 

[The prepared statement of Mr. Williford may be found in the 

Appendix on page 32.]

Ms. FALLIN. It is my pleasure to introduce our next speaker, who 

is a fellow Oklahoman. Dr. Orza holds a doctorate of education degree from the University of Oklahoma and is the dean of the 

Meinders School of Business at Oklahoma City University. 

Dr. Orza is recognized for his contributions to business education 

and the civic community, and here are just a few of his accomplishments. He founded and served as the Chairman of the Board of Directors and Chief Executive Officer of Eateries Incorporated, a 

growing national restaurant chain that started out with an idea 

and grew to over $100 million in annual sales. Eateries has been 

named as one of the top 100 small business companies in America 

as well as the number one publicly traded company in Oklahoma. 

And he was also named as one of the top ten best performing CEOs 

by Restaurant Business magazine. 

He has been a television reporter, an anchor with ABC TV affiliate KOCO-TV in Oklahoma City. And he currently provides economic commentary and analysis for CBS and affiliate of KWTV. He 

is a speaker, a panelist, an organizer of many national conferences 

and conventions. 

So, Dr. Orza, we are thrilled to have you here today. 

STATEMENT OF MR. VINCENT F. ORZA, JR., DEAN, MEINDERS 

SCHOOL OF BUSINESS, OKLAHOMA CITY UNIVERSITY 

Mr. ORZA. I have served as both an entrepreneur, founder of a 

company, as well as a corporate executive, a journalist, and an educator. 

Regarding the very simple issue of gas prices and small business, 

the simple fact is that virtually every product bought or sold in 

America winds up being transported in a car or truck at some point 

in the consumption process. 

So rising gas prices affect everyone, every business, and fuel surcharges are making matters worse simply because most small businesses absorb them. Those fuel prices have a multiplier effect since 

rising prices affect the cost of doing business for the company as 

well as the cost of living for the consumer. 

Historically small businesses run much thinner margins than do 

large competitors. They have less leverage in negotiating pricing 

for transportation, marketing, labor. There are two simple choices 

to reverse declining profits and minimize losses. We either cut costs 

or we increase prices. 

Typically the first way businesses attack rising prices or shrinking profits is to reduce labor costs. It is simply the largest cost center most companies face. 

When I was asked about shrinking profits and losses, like many 

small business owners, the first salary I cut was my own. The 

American economy is driven by consumer spending. When unemVerDate 0ct 09 2002 14:50 May 22, 2008 Jkt 033615 PO 00000 Frm 00010 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 G:\CLERK SB-LD\HEARINGS\TRANSCRIPTS\41491.TXT LEANN
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ployment increases, consumer spending will likely decline. If you 

earn less, you spend less. That affects small business. 

The slides that I will show you are from a poll that the Meinders 

School of Business took last month. It is provided, by the way, to 

the Federal Reserve Bank, the Kansas City branch, and for the 

Open Market Committee. It mirrors what the University of Michigan poll shows. And, as you scan see, the decline in the graphs is 

noticeably negative. 

Business and personal expectations, 50 percent of consumers in 

16 middle American states now say that they believe the coming 

year will be bad for business. That is up from 37 percent in October 

and 20 percent last May. 

In terms of their current financial position, 39 percent of the respondents said they believe their financial situation will be worse. 

Forty- seven percent of the consumers believe the next 5 years will 

bring periods of depression versus 37 percent in October. 

Women, you will notice, are considerably more pessimistic than 

men. The decline in the thinking now is also showing up in durable 

household items, the purchase of those down from 46 percent to 38 

percent. 

Consumers continue to change their habits as a result of gas 

prices. As you can see, for all categories, 53 percent of all consumers, 58 percent of women say they are now driving less. And, 

by the way, it goes across all of the different categories across the 

United States: north central, south central, and so on. All of the 

demographics are in the handout I have given you. 

SBA members document some of the problems already occurring. 

Business bankruptcy has risen. For the last four quarters, the 

same time business optimism, consumer sentiment optimism both 

declining as a result of rising unemployment. 

Inflation is impacting consumer prices. At three dollars a gallon, 

consumer discretionary spending winds up, in fact, impacting quick 

service and casual theme restaurants, who alone have shown a loss 

of ten percent of their customers so far in the last few months. 

Soft good purchases at chain stores, many of which operate as 

small franchisees and thousands of independent merchants are 

down along with ticket sales at movie theatres. Small businesses 

are also starting to impact hiring for many minorities, women, and 

immigrants, which is where they quite often begin their careers, 

and already face social and economic challenges and are now beginning to be squeezed as a result. 

Rising fuel prices pose an enhanced threat for business owners 

at a very time when we are talking about increasing diversity. Rising fuel prices have resulted in poor sales, declining profits, and 

losses from Macy’s, Wal- Mart, Sears, Wilson Leathers, Applebee’s, 

not to mention thousands of mom and pop restaurants and as well 

as high-end stores like Nordstrom’s. Liz Claiborne is shuttering 54 

Sigrid Olsen stores, Ann Taylor closing 117 of their 921 stores, Talbot’s closing all of its men’s and children’s stores along with 22 

women’s stores. Even Target and Starbucks are seeing a decline. 

All of those companies are serviced by small businesses, who do 

window washing, custodial services, paper products, delivery, alterations. 

8

Vacancy rates at shopping centers, regional malls down dramatically, national retail vacancy rates rose for the 11th straight quarter to the highest level since 1996. And there are 34 million feet 

of new construction underway. All of that paints a dark picture for 

small business. Corporate defaults, bankruptcies, rising fuel prices 

not only threaten the airlines but all of the small businesses that 

service them. 

Recently members of Congress called in the heads of the oil companies to talk about rising profits. The truth of the matter is that 

is what will lead to a solution here. Rising profits mean an increase 

in drilling and increase in exploration and more jobs. 

And so we shouldn’t penalize a company that is doing well, even 

if it is in the face affecting all of us in the near term. The problem 

is increased demand, China and India and a host of other countries 

increasing demand more than anyone would imagine just five or 

ten years ago. 

Thank you very much. 

[The prepared statement of Mr. Orza may be found in the Appendix on page 36.]

Chairman ALTMIRE. Thank you. And I want to recognize our colleagues from Texas who have joined us, Mr. Gohmert and Mr. 

Gonzaez. Thank you each for being here. 

At this point I want to introduce Mr. John Urbanchuk. He is an 

economist and serves as the Director of LECG in Pennsylvania. Mr. 

Urbanchuk specializes in applying economic analysis tools to individual firm and industry problems. This includes market analysis, 

business strategy development, and analysis of the impact of government policy and regulatory changes on business and industry. 

His research specializes in renewable energy, agriculture, and consumer foods. 

Since 1988, LECG has been providing independent expert testimony and analysis, original authoritative studies, and strategic 

consulting services. It has over 850 experts and professionals 

across 30 disciplines in 10 countries. 

Welcome, Mr. Urbanchuk. 

STATEMENT OF MR. JOHN URBANCHUK, DIRECTOR, LECG, 

LLC 

Mr. URBANCHUK. Thank you very much. I appreciate the opportunity to come here today and talk to you about the issue of rising 

gasoline prices. 

As you indicated, my name is John Urbanchuk, and I am a Director at LECG. Recently, for the past 20 or so years, I have been 

focusing on agriculture issues and biofuels/renewable fuels, issues. 

And I want to talk a little bit about the impact of not only rising 

gasoline prices but also potential for renewable biofuels to address 

this particular problem. 

American consumers and small businesses are reeling under the 

financial pressure of rapidly rising fuel prices. As you pointed out 

earlier, crude oil prices have topped the $100 a barrel level, which 

when combined with constrained refinery capacity has pushed retail gasoline and on-highway diesel prices to new records levels. 

9

According to the Energy Information Administration, Americans 

used about 138 billion gallons of gasoline and 55 billion gallons of 

number two diesel fuel for highway use. At average pump prices, 

this amounted to about $397 billion of spending on gasoline and 

nearly $159 billion on diesel fuel. 

The national average retail price of gasoline for all grades reached $3.26 a gallon in March of 2008. That is 28 percent above 

where it was just a year ago, while retail-level diesel prices were 

about 52 percent above a year ago levels in March, averaging $3.88 

a gallon. And, frankly, there is no end in sight for rising prices. 

Yesterday the Energy Information Administration revised its short-term energy outlook and projected oil prices at $101 a barrel 

for the remainder of 2008 and increased their projection for next 

year to $92.50 a barrel for 2009. So we are in this mess for some 

time. Gas prices are expected now to average nearly $3.60 a gallon 

this summer, with projections for some areas of the country to top 

$4 a gallon. 

Increased motor fuel prices affect consumers in a number of different ways. First, high pump prices force drivers to allocate a larger share of disposable income to fuel. And perhaps most importantly, since rising fuel prices increase operating costs for businesses at virtually every stage of production and distribution, high 

fuel prices eventually affect the prices of all consumer goods and 

services. 

Rising fuel prices have been a major contributor to recent increases in inflation. The CPI for all items increased at a 4.2 percent rate on average over the last four months. That is about twice 

where it was a year gao. 

Over that same period, the CPI for motor fuels increased at 33.4 

percent. The impact of rising fuel prices on other consumer goods 

is perhaps best illustrated by their impact on food prices. Many 

critics have blamed the recent increases in consumer food prices on 

rising grain prices, which is due, in part, to increased demand for 

biofuels. 

While grain and other agricultural prices have increased sharply 

over the past year, their impact on consumer food prices is overshadowed by energy and energy prices. Energy plays a significant 

role in the production of raw agricultural commodities, transportation and processing, and distribution of consumer finished food 

products. 

I conducted an analysis last year that was sponsored by the Renewable Fuels Association that concluded that an increase in fuel 

prices--and we looked at energy fuel prices particularly--has twice 

the impact on consumer food prices measured by the CPI--that is 

what we all pay when we go to the grocery store--as the same percentage increase in corn prices. That is just one raw material that 

goes into that basket of food. 

Ethanol and biodiesel biofuels have a significant impact on restraining the increase in motor fuel prices. Increased production 

and use of ethanol is helping to displace gasoline demand and reduce prices at the pump. 

Last year we produced six and a half billion gallons of ethanol. 

This year we are going to produce close to nine billion. The new 

Energy Independence and Security Act of 2008 requires we use 36 

10

billion gallons by 2022. This is 30 percent of the nation’s motor fuel 

supply. That is going to extend supplies and increase and work to 

lower prices at the pump. 

We estimated in a very recent study that ethanol saved the 

American consumer an estimated 10.3 cents a gallon at the retail 

pump in 2007, for total savings of about $6.8 billion. 

Considering what is going on with regard to oil and gasoline 

prices now, we expect similar savings in 2008. And as we move forward in increasing the supply of biofuels, it is going to relieve pressure on consumer prices. 

Thank you very much. 

[The prepared statement of Mr. Urbanchuk may be found in the 

Appendix on page 44.]

Chairman ALTMIRE. Thank you. 

Michael Graff is my constituent. And he is President and CEO 

to Graff Trucking, Incorporated, located in Natrona Heights, Pennsylvania. He founded the company in 1986 with one vehicle as a 

part-time venture, but since then he has expanded the business to 

a full-time operation with 12 employees, 9 vehicles, and 44 trailers. 

Graff Trucking works with both national and local businesses and 

operates primarily in the Northeastern states of Pennsylvania, 

New York, Ohio, New Jersey, and Maryland. 

Welcome, Mr. Graff. 

STATEMENT OF MR. MICHAEL GRAFF, PRESIDENT & CEO, 

GRAFF TRUCKING, INC. 

Mr. GRAFF. Thank you. 

You know, the fuel prices, they have been on the rise in this 

country, you know, for the past several years. And although there 

has been much publicity recently around rising prices, this issue 

has been ongoing to the trucking industry for several years. We 

have been suffering from increases that have caused us to lose efficiencies and erode our profits. 

In the past year, diesel prices have continued to increase while 

today averaging around $4 to $4.50 a gallon. At first the increases 

were simply borne by the trucking companies and became so high 

that operating without fuel surcharges or increasing prices was no 

longer an option. 

What continues to be amazing is the fact that diesel fuel is less 

refined and, therefore, costs less to produce but is averaging approximately 77 cents more per gallon than gasoline. 

While I struggle to remain in business dealing with escalating 

costs, our fuel companies continue to report record-breaking profits. 

What remains extremely frustrating to all businesses and consumers who are facing higher costs is the same fuel companies continue to receiving tax breaks. 

Graff Trucking employs 12 employees. And despite a solid relationship and established 20-year history in business ,I am at a 

point that I am questioning my ability to continue to operate. The 

news reports almost daily on companies who are ceasing to operate 

or filing for bankruptcy, including three airlines just last week, due 

to the increase in operating expenses. 

11

One common thread for these companies and the trucking industry are the fact that the fuel is the highest expense and has driven 

them out of business. I request your help so that Graff Trucking 

is not the next company faced to follow this path. 

What is the driver for these outrageous fuel prices? Is energy 

trading and Wall Street playing a huge part in the root cause of 

the fuel prices? Wall Street is not driven to provide affordable energy supplies. 

Due to the limited overseeing of energy trading and the dominant position in oil futures by Investment banks and hedge funds, 

this may be a contributing factor of the volatility of prices leading 

to high gasoline, diesel, and oil prices. 

The government standard rate for transportation, rate per mile 

charged for similar type modes of transportation and fuel surcharge rates, equal. What we need there is some help from the government to come up with some standardized rates. Okay? This 

would allow for small business owners to be competitive and not 

allow large companies to dictate the rates, which is my fear. 

I hate to see any more government involved in business than it 

is today, but if the government does not step in now, what we are 

going to have is large companies only. And they are going to be dictating the transportation rates. 

The transportation industry is the first impacted by these rates 

and then filter further into the economy and touch all citizens, 

which everyone else has testified to. There is, potential for increased costs to all of our business sectors for our country is at 

risk. Government must take immediate steps to prevent the economy from slipping even further into a negative state than we are 

currently facing. 

Pennsylvania, where I am from, has the highest tax on diesel in 

the nation. The government is considering implementing a toll on 

interstate 80 as well as discussion on privatizing the Pennsylvania 

Turnpike, which is selling the Pennsylvania Turnpike. These actions would have a continued detrimental effect on the transportation industry. 

In Pittsburgh a ten percent drink tax was initiated to help address financial struggles of the mass transit, the port authority. 

These are not steps needed to resolve the issues we are facing. 

This Committee as well as the federal and state governments 

must work together to implement both short and long-term solutions to allow small business owners such as myself the ability to 

continue to operate allowing us to provide employment and service 

to our customers. 

Now what I would like to see our federal government help us out 

with are alternative auxiliary power units where these tractortrailers do not have to sit along the roads in idle 24 hours, whatever, so that the drivers may stay cold in the summer, stay warm 

in the winter, their auxiliary power units. 

I would like to see a grant, some type of grant, from our federal 

government. We would decrease the emissions and the fuel usage. 

These are the kind of answers that I am looking for from our federal government. 

12

I am not looking for free handouts, whatever. I am looking for 

grants, whatever so that we can reduce and help our own industry 

survive. This is what we need to have happening. 

And we need to limit the price of fuel increases on a weekly 

basis. So that Monday when we bid our freight rates out for the 

week, Tuesday the fuel price is up 14-15 cents a gallon. Our government needs to step in and help us with the cost rising throughout the weeks. 

We need set rates on fuel. No one else in the industry in this 

whole country can get away with what these oil companies do to 

us in this industry every week. These prices continue to fluctuate. 

They jump up. No reason. Because the wind blew wrong somewhere. It is crazy what goes on in this country with these oil 

prices. And the federal government needs to step in and give us a 

helping hand. 

Thank you very much. Appreciate you having me. 

[The prepared statement of Mr. Graff may be found in the Appendix on page 49.]

Chairman ALTMIRE. Thank you, Mr. Graff. Thanks for telling 

your story. 

And several weeks ago I had the opportunity to go to Chesapeake 

Rehab in my district in Plum. And Mr. Gilberti and I had the opportunity to talk there. And it is a medical provider, medical equipment provider. 

And when we talked about gas prices, it struck me at how pervasive this problem is across our economy, that it is really affecting 

every type of business that is out there. And that really was the 

genesis of this hearing. 

It is why we wanted to have the hearing to demonstrate for everybody that this was not just unique to the trucking industry and 

it is not something that you can just target as having hit one industry, but it really is affecting everybody. And that is why I am 

so happy that Mr. Gilberti is here to tell his story. 

Gary Gilberti is President of Chesapeake Rehab Equipment and 

is President Elect of the National Coalition for Assistive and Rehab 

Technology. They work to promote the interests of rehab and assistive technology industries, ensuring adequate consumer access to 

appropriate technology and services while creating a stable business environment for providers and manufacturers of rehabilitation 

and assistive technology. 

Chesapeake Rehabilitation Equipment is a small regional company which provides rehab technology products and services to disabled Americans throughout the Northeast, including in western 

Pennsylvania. 

Thank you, Mr. Gilberti. 

STATEMENT OF MR. GARY GILBERTI, CHESAPEAKE REHAB 

EQUIPMENT 

Mr. GILBERTI. Thank you, Congressman Altmire and Committee, 

for having me here today. I appreciate the opportunity to discuss 

the impact of fuel prices on my business and other medical equipment providers. 

13

Chesapeake Rehab Equipment is a regional provider of home 

medical equipment and specifically in the rehab technology sector, 

where we serve individuals with severe disabilities. 

The National Coalition of Assistive and Rehab Technology represents companies like mine on issues such as Medicare and Medicaid issues and trying to assure the access to medical equipment 

for disabled Americans. 

The rehab technology industry is a small division of the durable 

medical equipment industry. Businesses in this sector provide 

home medical equipment and services to individuals with a variety 

of conditions and disabilities. Our delivery model is such that we 

must make deliveries and service calls to customers’ homes on a 

daily basis. 

Companies in this industry are primarily small. The average 

company is anywhere from two to three million in revenue annually serving local or regional areas. Our companies employ fleets of 

vehicles and it is not uncommon to make 10 stops a day and serve 

a 150 to 200-mile area for each vehicle in a day. 

We are also in a price-regulated environment. Ninety-five percent of our reimbursement for the services we provide comes from 

Medicaid or Medicare or third party insurers. Anybody who knows 

anything about Medicare knows that they are implementing budget 

cuts and competitive bidding and other ways to cut costs. That 

trickles down to our industry, cutting our bottom line even further. 

When things like fuel prices hit our businesses, we get squeezed 

from two directions. We get squeezed by the increasing operating 

cost and then the decreasing revenue opportunity from regulation 

by our pay sources. 

We are unable to unilaterally raise our prices, unlike other home 

service agencies or home service companies, such as electricians or 

plumbers. We can’t just increase our labor rate or add fuel charges 

to make back what we lose in operating costs. 

Just as an example, since 2003, my company has experienced a 

126 percent increase in fuel prices. Fuel is now the third largest 

operating expense we have, behind payroll and facility rent. It has 

increased five times more than any other operating expense. 

In 2006, a study was done by the Moran Group that showed that 

home medical equipment companies, specifically rehab technology 

companies, experienced about a 1.6 net profit on the average. That 

means that half these companies are below that. When you increase fuel prices or any operating expense at the rate that this 

has occurred, you put an already very fragile industry under water. 

With Medicare and Medicaid continuing to look at where they 

can cut costs and with programs like competitive bidding where 

they are anticipating a 10 to 20 percent savings in what they are 

paying providers for the services we do every day, there is no room 

for us anymore. 

And I am concerned that if this continues and if fuel prices continue to increase the way they are, companies in our industry are 

going to be going out of business at an alarming rate. That means 

a lack of access to our services and goods for people who are severely disabled. 

Not only are we feeling the pinch on the direct operating lines 

of our business, but we also are subject to fuel surcharges from 

14

trucking companies because the goods that we provide come into 

our businesses and then we redeliver them. 

I understand totally why these individuals have to impose fuel 

surcharges. They have to run their businesses as well. But we have 

seen our manufacturers add three to five percent to our cost of 

goods in the last two years and that is another pressure on our operating cost. 

So, as you can see, we are in a squeezed situation. We can’t increase our revenues, increase our prices, but our operating costs 

are increasing at an alarming rate. 

So I thank you very much for this opportunity. And hopefully we 

can see some solutions in the near future. 

[The prepared statement of Mr. Gilberti may be found in the Appendix on page 52.]

Chairman ALTMIRE. Thank you, Mr. Gilberti. And thanks to the 

entire panel. 

We will now open up for questions. I wanted to first direct my 

question to Dr. Orza. I was wondering about the small number of 

U.S. businesses utilizing traditional energy sources. Rising costs 

will have a detrimental impact on growth given the number of 

small U.S. businesses. 

Do you have information on how energy prices impact small businesses compared to large businesses? And if you could provide us 

with a comparison between the expenditures and percent of total 

revenues, for example, small businesses allocate to energy resources compared to their larger business counterparts? 

Mr. ORZA. I think all of us would tell you that in small business, 

we do our financial statements to the hundredth of a percent because those hundredths of percents turn out to be a point, sometimes two points, profit or cost. 

And clearly with small business, you don’t have the leverage to 

negotiate for product pricing, for fuel pricing, for insurance costs or 

anything else, much less labor cost. And, as a result, you are wholly held hostage to something that is completely out of your control, 

like fuel prices. 

As I showed you on how the country is dealing with gas prices 

in virtually every section of the country, everybody is driving less. 

Well, those are typically consumers that are driving less. That 

means they are using all of the services that are delivered by a 

trucking company, by a plumbing company. It is simply gas on the 

fire. 

I would go back to tell you again OPEC still controls an awful 

lot of this industry. Many of the states represented by the Committee, Pennsylvania, Oklahoma, Texas, are oil and gas states, 

which a few years ago were suffering. At $20 a barrel, it wasn’t 

worth the trouble to go get some of the very deep gas and oil. 

Pennsylvania right now is a boon state again for natural gas. It 

is worth going after. That will build an economy. Along the way we 

have to make sure we don’t bankrupt the businesses who can’t afford the increases they are suffering. So it is clearly exacerbating 

the problem, certainly by trucking companies. They pay it immediately. 

15

There is one simple solution. And that is to suspend federal gas 

taxes or diesel taxes for some period of time. You know, Congress 

decided to send 117 million households a rebate check. And it took 

almost five months. We won’t get them until May. You could suspend gas taxes immediately and help these businesses today. 

Chairman ALTMIRE. Thank you. 

Mr. Williford, I understand from your comments that contractors 

sometimes place competitive bids on projects, which is something 

that this Committee has an intense interest in. And you mentioned 

the need to estimate and project numbers when placing a bid. And 

I assume you factor fuel prices into that bid. 

And I was wondering if you can give the Committee an idea of 

how you address the volatility of fuel costs when you prepare your 

long-term bids. 

Mr. WILLIFORD. Mr. Chairman, I don’t mean to be flippant, but 

you hope. You hope that you got it right. Normally it takes us 

about six months after we bid and are awarded a project for us to 

mobilize and get on site. Now, that is on the construction side of 

our business. 

So, therefore, if we bid a project and are awarded that project 

today and we have factored into our burden for that project a price 

of $3.30 a gallon, if that goes to 3.50 in 6 months, then we are actually on the project and expending funds for that project, then the 

project is already a loser. 

So you do the best you can. You look out into the future and take 

the estimates that some of these folks have referred to and hope 

that you get it right. And if you don’t, then, as I said, you are already dealing with a loser. 

Chairman ALTMIRE. Mr. Graff, you talked about the direct impact that gas prices have, which is obvious for everyone to see, but 

I appreciate you continuing to talk about the problem. But I am 

wondering about indirect gas prices because when you think of a 

trucking company, you think, well, the price of gas goes up. And, 

therefore, you have to pay more for gas, and that is going to hit 

your bottom line. 

But you are getting hit in other ways on gas prices also. And I 

was wondering if you could talk about the indirect ways the increase in fuel prices are hurting your business. 

Mr. GRAFF. The indirect ways, I mean, you have all of your expenses from your hospitalization, from your Workmen’s Compensation to your health insurance. Everything that can be cut you are 

looking at and you are cutting. It was spoken here before. Health 

insurance. Employees have got to pay more for their health insurance. 

It all goes back to the trickle-down effect, the domino effect. We 

are cutting everything we can actually cut in our industry to stay 

alive. 

We need help in so many different ways. It was talked about suspending the state tax, the federal tax. Well, the governments don’t 

want to hear this. They don’t want to hear it because of their highway projects. They are not going to have anybody traveling these 

highways if it continues on the way it is. 

16

I mean, we need help in a lot of ways. And I am asking for this 

government to help. Put a panel together. Do something. Our industry is dying by the day. We have got to have help. 

Chairman ALTMIRE. Thank you. 

And I am going to temporarily turn the chairmanship over to Mr. 

Gonzaez. And I am going to yield to the gentle woman from Oklahoma for her five minutes of questioning. I will be back. 

Ms. FALLIN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

I would like to address my first question to John, if I might. You 

were talking about some of the renewable resources and alternative 

fuels and ethanol, in particular. In your analysis of ethanol, when 

we look at the cost as a nation of ethanol compared to producing 

gasoline, can you tell me if there is a cost difference between getting that product to market? 

Mr. URBANCHUK. Well, the cost of getting the product to the market? 

Ms. FALLIN. Producing it. 

Mr. URBANCHUK. Well, the cost of producing obviously today gasoline and diesel fuel are refined from petroleum. The single largest 

cost in producing those refined products is crude oil prices. When 

you are looking at ethanol or you are looking at biodiesel, again, 

the feed stock of whether it is corn or sugar in the case of other 

countries or soybean oil is the most significant cost item in producing those products as well. 

The biofuels industry in the United States is still relatively 

young. The relative cost of production for ethanol versus gasoline 

is still somewhat higher than gasoline is. 

We do have federal incentives in place, a volumetric ethanol excise tax credit, the VEETC, which provides a credit to the blender 

who buys ethanol to blend with gasoline and helps keep that product competitive with gasoline. 

The real issue here is perhaps not so much today’s basic economics, which clearly I believe are favoring the use of biofuels, but as 

we move forward into the future if we increase our reliance and dependence on producing biofuels and the role that they play, those 

prices are going to come down. It is going to retain its competitiveness and improve the economic benefit to consumers across the 

board. 

Ms. FALLIN. That was my question, I guess, because I have heard 

that it is like three to one for production costs of ethanol to gasoline and just actually producing it and getting it to the marketplace. It is more expensive. 

Mr. URBANCHUK. It is more expensive. I don’t think it is three 

to one. I think the number is probably closer to one and a half, two 

to one today in terms of just flat-out production and distribution 

costs. 

Ms. FALLIN. But if you add in the tax incentives that we have, 

why does that cause the different--

Mr. URBANCHUK. If you add the tax incentives that are in place 

for ethanol--

Ms. FALLIN. It may be what the three to one is. 

Mr. URBANCHUK. --today, then, as we indicated, when you take 

a look at the costs of producing, distributing; that is, from the reVerDate 0ct 09 2002 14:50 May 22, 2008 Jkt 033615 PO 00000 Frm 00020 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 G:\CLERK SB-LD\HEARINGS\TRANSCRIPTS\41491.TXT LEANN
17

finery to the consumer, when you blend 10 percent ethanol with 

gasoline in 2007, it provided a 10.3 percent benefit to consumers. 

The price of ethanol-blended gasoline was 10.3 cents lower than 

it would have been without the use of ethanol. And we expect that 

that number is going to be about ten cents in 2008 as well. And 

when you move forward through time--and we have looked at this 

through 2017--we are looking at an average benefit that is somewhere in the area of about eight cents a gallon, so when you take 

all factors into consideration, production and distribution for gasoline, and compare that with production and distribution of ethanol 

in the blending of those, the consumer benefits from the use of ethanol, biofuels. 

Ms. FALLIN. And I am all for looking at other sources of energy 

and biodiesel and renewable energy, all of the things that we need 

to be looking at. 

Dr. Orza, if I could ask you a question? I know as an economics 

expert, can you talk just a little bit about what we can do to reduce 

the price of gasoline and costs on businesses in America? 

Mr. ORZA. Well, clearly alternative fuels, like ethanol, are a part 

of the solution, but they are only part of the solution. And there 

is a side bar to that that is a problem. We are one of the few countries in the world wealthy enough to actually use corn, which the 

rest of the world uses for food to use for fuel. 

One of the reasons you are seeing an increase in food prices--you 

can ask any American household--is because we are now using corn 

as a fuel alternative as well as a food source. And that is really 

affecting the price of milk and beef and everything else. 

The solutions are--and, frankly, it is pretty simple. The world is 

driven by oil, like it or not. And it is going to be driven by oil for 

a long, long time. We just can’t stop all the cars and trucks we 

have. 

By the way, we are talking about $3 a gallon gas. We are actually talking about $4 a gallon diesel, which really affects trucking. 

The long-term solution is increased exploration, more drilling because the world is driven by oil and gas. And, as I said earlier, in 

Pennsylvania now wells that were locked up for a long time just 

weren’t worth the trouble. As in Oklahoma, farmers and ranchers, 

who quite often made money off the wells that paid them royalties 

on their property, that money now is subsidizing the cost of farming and ranching. It is also subsidizing all the products that they 

buy are delivered by trucks. 

So, again, part of the problem also has a solution that causes another problem. The only real long-term solution is to increase production and define alternatives. The research for alternatives is 

being funded by the profits that oil and gas companies make. So 

while we may not like this, that is the long-term solution to a very 

difficult short-term problem. 

Ms. FALLIN. Thank you so much, Mr. Chairman. I will yield back 

my time. 

Mr. GONZAEZ. [Presiding] Thank you very much. 

The Chair is going to recognize himself for five minutes. The first 

thing I want to explain is you will see us looking at our Blackberries throughout. That seems to be rude, and sometimes it is. 

But sometimes we are actually asking our staffs to get some inforVerDate 0ct 09 2002 14:50 May 22, 2008 Jkt 033615 PO 00000 Frm 00021 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 G:\CLERK SB-LD\HEARINGS\TRANSCRIPTS\41491.TXT LEANN
18

mation to us so we can ask a question that becomes quite relevant 

during your remarks. And I do have one here that I am going to 

read to you in a minute. 

Secondly, I want to make the observation that many members of 

the Committee are somewhat familiar with your situations. And 

the reason for that is that Chairwoman Vela ́zquez has these roundtable breakfasts. And we have different small business representatives there. 

So we are familiar with the heating, cooling, and plumbing industry and what is going on there. Dr. Orza, we have been familiar 

with the spillover and domino effect of higher cost of fuels as it affects small business. 

Mr. Urbanchuk, believe it or not, we have had a hearing on the 

opportunities presented to small businesses in the expanding 

biofuels and alternative fuel fields. 

Mr. Graff, we have heard from the truckers. We have heard from 

the independents. I am going to be asking you a question of why 

independents are treated differently, let’s say, than the big outfits. 

And, Mr. Gilberti, believe me, we do know about durable medical 

equipment and competitive bidding. As a matter of fact, we just 

had a roundtable on that. So I think that Chairwoman Vela ́zquez 

was way ahead of us all. 

It is important today, and I have heard some long-term solutions 

here. Dr. Orza has touched on it, Mr. Urbanchuk. I am from Texas. 

You know I am an oil and gas guy. And I have got my colleague 

to my left. And I have Oklahoma. So you know where we are coming from many times. 

But I think Dr. Orza is correct. It is a wide-ranging portfolio of 

fuel sources and not to, I guess, promote one at the expense of another. And we haven’t been doing that. And we can go on and on 

with that. 

But the truth is when it comes to ethanol, how many E85 stations do we really have out there? What we have today, we don’t 

have the infrastructure. And these gentlemen here can’t wait. They 

won’t be in business by the time that we have that kind of infrastructure, when we finally get the cost of producing ethanol at a 

reasonable price and so on. 

So I guess what I really want to concentrate on is going to be 

what can we do immediately? And we have had a couple of suggestions here, such as waiving or reducing the tax today on diesel, for 

instance, because that is the fuel of choice for most commercial enterprises out there. 

I don’t know how realistic that is at the state level, the federal 

level, and so on. I just don’t see that actually happening. And for 

you to be able to pass it along, whether you are going to have surcharges built in your contracts, that is another issue. 

The question is, can we help you somehow in expensing it out? 

Is there something further that this government can do to help you 

in our tax policies that might assist you immediately improving on 

what you have available to you today? 

And I don’t know what we do about fuel-efficient vehicles. To be 

honest with you, I am not real sure there are any out there for 

commercial use. I don’t see hybrids out there when it comes to light 

19

or heavy duty trucks. I mean, none of that is happening. So it is 

the here and now. 

So, Mr. Williford, is there anything that the federal government 

can do immediately? And that is absent, you know, waiving all the 

taxes and all that, but is there anything with our tax code that we 

can do to assist you? 

Mr. WILLIFORD. Representative Gonzaez, I, frankly, don’t know. 

I think that the immediate possible remedy that you could use in 

terms of tax policy is perhaps credits for purchasing hybrids. 

Now, you mentioned that there aren’t any for commercial use. 

That is, in fact, I believe correct. However, we probably have 40 or 

50 project management and overhead vehicles that we use that certainly it is not cost-efficient right now for us to purchase a hybrid. 

Obviously if that were made more attractive, we would consider 

that. Obviously that would be in terms of conservation efforts, but 

in terms of other items that could consider in terms of tax policy, 

I just don’t know. 

Mr. GONZAEZ. Thank you. 

Dr. Orza, any suggestions of what we can do immediately? 

Mr. ORZA. I think, unfortunately, the answer is no. You are hearing people tell you they have cash flow problems today. So tax policy changes that they tax advantage of at the end of the year when 

they file their income taxes or whatever, or quarterly taxes, doesn’t 

solve a $3 to $4 a gallon gas or diesel problem immediately. And 

I think you are hearing that, you know, from the airline industries 

on down to trucking companies and small businesses that have to 

drive to do their job. 

The hybrid solution isn’t a solution, first of all, that costs five, 

six, seven thousand dollars more than a regular car or truck. So 

whatever you save on gas, you spend up front. That didn’t solve 

anything. And, by the way, the trucking companies and car companies aren’t producing enough of them to even fill the demand that 

there is. 

I think, again--and I would refer back to Congress decided to give everybody a $600 rebate, but we voted on it back in January or 

February. We won’t see checks until May. These people can’t wait 

five or six months with gas prices where they are. They need help 

immediately. And that is why I suggest that the real solution, the 

near-term solution, is suspension of some gas or fuel taxes because 

it is an immediate impact on their cash flow. 

Mr. GONZAEZ. The only problem with that is the duration of that 

time out and the fact that along the way, you reimpose it. What 

are we waiting for to happen in that period of time that will promote some sort of solution for them in the interim? I don’t have 

that answer. 

And I hate to disappoint you with that, but I think there has to 

be some sort of immediate relief. And I am not sure that you are 

going to get it with some sort of price controls. I don’t know if anyone is going to go and suspend the gas tax. I think that needs to 

be viewed, actually, realistically. 

Mr. Urbanchuk, I know that you are into bios and so on, but 

these individuals here really can’t wait for the development of the 

technology and the distribution system that would be required to 

aid them in a lower cost of fuel. 

20

Mr. URBANCHUK. Well, I think you provided part of the answer 

yourself, along with Dr. Orza. I think in the short-term, there is 

very, very little that can be done other than emergency actions, 

such as reducing or eliminating part of the federal tax, whether it 

is going to be done at the states levels. 

There are all kinds of problems associated with that. Again, any 

time you take one action, there are countervailing actions on the 

other side that create additional problems that have to be analyzed. But that is short term. As you say, businesses can’t wait for 

the intermediate term. 

The solution to this is a medium to long- term solution of: one, 

addressing the issue of demand, which is being done through the 

marketplace clearly. And technology is improving that but expanding supply. And that is where the issue of biofuels comes into play 

because if you use ten percent ethanol or you use biodiesel, you are 

increasing expanding the supply of motor fuel available. 

Today ten percent ethanol is the standard. Whether we get to 

E85 or not is an open question. I am not sure the E85 may be the 

answer. Maybe moving from 10 percent to 15 percent to 20 percent 

blends of ethanol on a wider basis around the country would expand that availability of motor fuel and help relieve pressure on 

prices. 

That is going to take obviously some time to happen. That is an 

intermediate approach to that. So it is really a combination of the 

short-term emergency action and then expanding supply as we 

move forward, both by also addressing the issue of domestic production of oil that is domestic drilling. 

But, frankly, we have a problem in this country as even if we 

had more crude oil, we don’t have the capacity to turn it into finished products. So we also have to move aggressively at the federal 

and the state level. 

Mr. GONZAEZ. My time is running out. And I want to make sure 

I give Mr. Graff and Mr. Gilberti an opportunity. I am just talking 

about the here and now. What are we going to do immediately? I 

know you are saying suspend the tax, and that is about it. 

Mr. Graff, real quick, I just want to tell you that you asked a 

question, why is diesel costing so much more? And in San Antonio, 

we have got Valero and Tesoro. They are refiners. And I just want 

to tell you basically what they are always telling us. Price of crude 

is still a large factor. 

Number two, process and refining of diesel is now more expensive than processing gasoline. This is due to the fact that diesel has 

to meet new low-sulfur specifications and it is a more expensive 

process to meet those specifications. 

Diesel has been more expensive generally since 2004. Higher federal excise tax on diesel, six cents per gallon, but truly cost of oil 

and refining costs to meet low-sulfur are the largest drivers of cost 

diesel. So I thought I would tell you that was what I was doing 

with my Blackberry. 

But what do you want us to do? Because it is really the trucking 

industry that is hurting the most. 

Mr. GRAFF. Eliminate it. Eliminate your refining process for your 

tree-huggers, the ones that are pushing it. Get rid of your ultra 

low-sulfur diesel. Make it one diesel. And eliminate the process. 

21

Right there they told you that is the reason that the diesel is 

higher than the gasoline. Eliminate it. Eliminate that process. We 

didn’t have it for years. And now you are seeing these process. 

They are telling you that is why diesel is moire than gas. Eliminate 

the process today. 

Mr. GONZAEZ. Mr. Gilberti? 

Mr. GILBERTI. I can’t speak to the refining cost of diesel. Our 

trucks don’t use diesel. We use generally smaller vehicles and--

Mr. GONZAEZ. What can we do for you to assist you in the short 

term? Are we--

Mr. GILBERTI. A little selfishly in our industry because our reimbursement is regulated by Medicare and Medicaid. We could hope 

for some sort of maybe fuel allowance in those reimbursement 

rates. And that doesn’t help some of these other industries, but at 

least in our industry, it would help us. 

Mr. GONZAEZ. Well, thank you very much. 

I would now recognize the gentleman from Texas for five minutes, Mr. Gohmert. 

Mr. GOHMERT. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thanks for having this 

hearing. I will tell you, one of the things I like about serving on 

this Committee is the reasonableness of the people on both sides 

of the aisle and their sensitivity towards small business and the 

fact that it produces 70 percent of the new jobs in the United 

States. 

Now, I am going to try to go back and pull together things I have 

been hearing. For one thing, one comment was made that speculation has driven some of the more recent rises in the price of gasoline and oil. 

One of the things that affects speculation is when the marketplace sees that laws are being passed that put more and more of 

our oil and gas off limits, shale off limit. And I am on the Natural 

Resources Committee. It has been breaking my heart for the last 

15 months. Bills that we keep passing in that Committee, I 

wouldn’t necessarily call them tree-huggers. I know they love the 

world, they love the country, but they have the idea that the higher 

the price of gasoline, then the less people will use and, therefore, 

the better it will be for the country and world. 

And I appreciate that. I just don’t appreciate passing bills that 

cause it to go up that put more and more of our oil and gas off limits and then blaming people on my side of the aisle for the rising 

cost in oil and gas. But what you see the market doing, it seems, 

is when they see us passing these laws, putting more off limits, 

then they end up, the speculation is, ‘‘Oops. The price is going to 

go up.’’ And that drives the speculation up. Some I have heard estimate that we may have 20 percent of the price of oil, maybe more, 

that is strictly due to speculation driving that price up. 

Dr. Orza, I appreciated hearing you say what I was concerned 

about and what I have come to be more aware of and shown figures 

that the vast majority of these huge profits that some would say 

were windfall profits are being reinvested in going after more energy. 

But, my friend Mr. Gonzaez, I didn’t hear anything he said that 

I disagreed with. We want to help. I have concerns. I would love 

to see the gas tax reduced or eliminated. The problem with that is 

22

then you start developing road and infrastructure problems and we 

get too far behind. And we are already behind. You guys know 

that. We have problems with our highways. We are not keeping up. 

And here we do have a lot of the choir: Texas, Oklahoma, Pennsylvania, Louisiana. Those states are trying to produce energy, trying to help the nation. 

I filed a bill in the last Congress called the State Hypocrisy Reform Act that simply said--and I was just wanting to help our 

states that are being hypocrites by saying if you do not allow oil 

or gas exploration or production in your state or in your contiguous 

coastal areas, then you are prohibited from importing any oil or gas 

from states that do. You know, that way that will allow them to 

not be so hypocritical. 

And one of my friends from Florida said that helped make the 

point in Florida that if they are going to keep sucking energy out 

of other states, they ought to really allow it to be produced. 

I didn’t realize until I got on the Resources Committee how much 

natural gas we have, vast amounts, off the West Coast, East Coast, 

Gulf that is not allowed to be tapped, Great Lakes. The good news 

is Canada is apparently tapping it. And they are willing to sell us 

our gas back. 

Cuba is allowing drilling off its coast to Russia, China. I think 

Venezuela is going to get in there. And I will bet they are going 

to be willing to sell us our own gas back. But it is ridiculous to put 

all of that off limits. 

I have concerns when I hear government needs to step in and 

dictate rates because that takes me back to the late ’70s, when we 

had the long gas lines. But I love your comment about would diesel 

just eliminate the extra process. 

We had a refinery in my town growing up. And they said diesel 

will always be cheaper because it is lower on the cracking tower, 

doesn’t cost as much to produce and, therefore, it will be cheaper. 

And we keep adding all of these requirements. 

So I appreciated your comments there. That might be something 

we could do quickly. And if the market sees us taking those actions, it might cut down and lower the speculation there as well. 

This hearing, we are so limited in what we can do and say. I just 

challenge you to think about these things, what won’t hurt our 

highways, what won’t hurt the economy, what won’t create gas 

lines. It doesn’t have to end at this hearing. 

You can submit us things in writing that we can consider, put 

together in bills because what I--I am not really kidding. This Committee takes small business propositions very seriously. And you 

will often see it being made into a law that is filed and getting support behind it. 

Let me just get comments. You had said you would like to see 

the auxiliary power unit so diesel rigs won’t have to stay beside the 

road. My concern is that is going to have to be paid for somewhere. 

We probably have to add a tax to get that done. 

Do you see that as an immediate help? 

Mr. GRAFF. Yes. I see it within a year. I would be really shocked 

and happy to see the numbers. What it is, for anyone that doesn’t 

know what an auxiliary power unit is, it is a small diesel engine, 

maybe this big, that mounts on a side frame of the tractor-trailer. 

23

These drivers are required to have so many hours off within the 

day. When they pull off the road, that motor, the big engine in the 

truck, no longer runs. Okay? It is an auxiliary generator, dieselpowered, that supplies heat and air conditioning to the truck. The 

big motor no longer runs. Emissions take the big dive. The fuel 

usage takes the big dive. On the average cost right now, there is $7,000 per unit per truck. 

I don’t know if we could get a tax credit for those. If we could get 

some kind of federal grants, whatever, the numbers in the fuel, less 

amount of fuel used, would be great. 

Mr. GOHMERT. Well, I see my time has expired, but I would just 

encourage you all to keep thinking. We have got some smart people 

here. And please submit us things in writing that you see could be 

hard and fast things we could do and do quickly. 

And I have worked with our Chairman before on bills. And I appreciate his common sense approach and would like to do that in 

the future. 

Thank you. 

Chairman ALTMIRE. [Presiding] Thank you, Mr. Gohmert, the 

previous ranking member of this Committee. 

And I would now recognize the gentleman from Indiana, my good 

friend Mr. Ellsworth, for five minutes. 

Mr. ELLSWORTH. I think there is a red light on there. Thank you, 

Mr. Chairman. I apologize for being late. Armed Services, as you 

know, has General Petraeus and the ambassador in. 

Really, the only question I had in my review of the testimony before this was for Mr. Graff. Mr. Graff, I get a lot of trucking firms, 

especially small trucking firms, coming to my office in the district 

and talking about the proposal. 

And I think you mentioned in your written testimony about the 

fuel surcharge standard and helping small trucking companies 

compete with their larger counterparts. I don’t know if that has 

been talked about today, but could you go into that in a little more 

detail, how that would assist the small trucking firms, perhaps 

what the opinion of the larger trucking firms is and just explore 

that a little more for me, please? 

Mr. GRAFF. The question was asked a little while ago about the 

difference between the fuel surcharges. What it is, you have your 

major carriers, which, by the way, only haul about ten percent of 

the freight. Okay? 

What they do, they are big enough and large enough to go to 

your big manufacturing companies and distribute their freight nationally. So they will go in and set their rates, their transportation 

rate, along with their fuel surcharge rates. 

What happens to the rest of the industry is this freight is sent 

out to brokers. Brokers are all nationally little closet, broom closet, 

people or whatever. And what they do is these companies give all 

their overflow freight to these brokers. The brokers contact carriers, such as me, and says, ‘‘I have a load that goes point A to B. 

Here is my rate.’’ It is a combined rate. 

What they are doing, why I would like to see some kind of guidance from the government is what they are doing is snagging part 

of the fuel surcharge and not passing it on to the trucking companies. Their profits have been greater. Ours are a lot less. 

24

And that is why I said I don’t want to see any more government 

involvement. I think the government needs to step in here and find 

out where all of these fuel surcharges are going because 

everybody’s fuel surcharge should be the same. It is the same. 

Are the carriers getting it? No. Your large carriers? Yes. Your 

small brokers, your small trucking companies are not getting it. 

That is the difference between the fuel surcharges. And that is 

what is happening. 

Mr. ELLSWORTH. Can you argue it from the other side, from the 

larger trucking firms, or would the larger trucking firms be on the 

same page with you or do I need to say what the brokers would 

say or is it better? 

Mr. GRAFF. Okay. Here is the issue--and this is what has happened to the large trucking companies, your major carriers. Last 

year they went in. You can negotiate a contract for a year. Okay? 

And they have an escalated cost, a scale. Last year they negotiated, 

‘‘Okay. If fuel goes up to $3.10, here is the max. This is what we 

will lock you in for a year.’’

The large companies were sitting there saying, ‘‘We’re maxxed 

out. Our fuel surcharge has been maxxed out for six months now. 

We’re capped.’’ Now they are starting to lose money. 

The brokers go in there, ‘‘Hey, here is our fuel surcharge. We 

have a scale.’’ Department of Energy puts it out every Monday. 

Okay? And here is the real kicker to it. They put it out every Monday. 

The brokers go out and say, ‘‘Okay. Here it is. Here is what it 

is going to cost. So it is not going to cost that manufacturing company a little more. But the brokers are not passing all the money 

on to the small companies.’’ It is a hidden cost that they are hiding. 

It is not that they are able to pocket part of the money. 

Mr. ELLSWORTH. Just as a follow-up, the impacts, long-run competition, long-term impact on small truckers? 

Mr. GRAFF. Long-term impact? Your small companies are going 

out of business daily. They are going out of business. Your big companies within two, three years are going to dictate to this whole 

country what it is going to be. And it is going to be worse than the 

Hoffa days ever were. They are going to tell you exactly what it is 

going to be. 

Mr. ELLSWORTH. Anybody else want to comment on my question 

from the panel? I am sorry I didn’t review everybody’s testimony. 

Mr. ORZA. I would make a point on that. You know, Southwest 

Airlines has done pretty well over the last couple of years because 

they had futures contracts. But that is a gamble. 

Sooner or later, whoever promised them to sell them fuel at some 

reduced price based on banking on tomorrow would be better than 

today, sooner or later some of those guys trip. And it will happen 

to the trucking business also. 

Somebody will have a contract to sell a big supplier or big user 

fuel at X price, but they won’t be able to afford to buy it themselves. And then you will see--do you know what is happening in 

subprime mortgages? That can happen in fuel also, where somebody makes the promise and isn’t qualified to make the deal happen. 

25

So it is a huge problem for big trucking companies. It is substantially more of a difficult problem for small companies because they 

don’t even have the wherewithal to negotiate futures the way large 

companies do. 

Mr. ELLSWORTH. Thank you, Mr. Orza. 

Mr. Chairman, I don’t have any further questions. 

Chairman ALTMIRE. Thank the gentleman. And thank you for 

your attendance. 

The gentle woman from Oklahoma has one final question. And 

then we will adjourn. The gentle woman is recognized. 

Ms. FALLIN. All right. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

I appreciate all of your testimony today. And it has been very 

helpful, especially to hear from you who are directly affected by the 

rising cost of fuel prices. 

I was intrigued by Mr. Graff’s description of technology that 

could be used during trucks that are idle and how you can save on 

fuel costs, save on even environmental concerns with a cleaner output from the energy you are using. 

But to all of you, do you have any suggestions that we can look 

at when it comes to businesses and their consumption of energy? 

And it may be gasoline. It could be diesel or it could be a piece of 

technology that can be used in your business when you consume 

energy in any way, shape, or form. It could be in the manufacturing of goods. It could be when you have a truck that is idle and 

you buy a piece of equipment that will help. 

Do you have any ideas of things that we can look at in Congress 

that would encourage you to use more energy-efficient technology 

to help reduce energy consumption and lower costs and, of course, 

help the environment, too? Any of you? 

Mr. GRAFF. Well, number one, new equipment, which, unfortunately, it was already pointed out, you can’t afford the new equipment. You know yourself if you buy yourself a new automobile, the 

first couple of years, it is getting better gas mileage. Once it starts 

wearing out, it’s not as good. 

The same thing with the transportation industry: newer trucks. 

Okay? But, I mean, there is one big savings there, but how do you 

afford it? These carriers can’t afford it. 

Ms. FALLIN. What would encourage you to be able to afford it 

that we could do policy-wise? 

Mr. GRAFF. Tax breaks. 

Ms. FALLIN. Okay. 

Mr. GRAFF. Tax breaks, huge tax breaks. You know, somehow at 

the end of the month, you know, the fare has got to be paid. I 

mean, it is something that the government would have to look at. 

Can these people afford it? 

Ms. FALLIN. And can any of you give me a specific example of 

a tax credit that would be beneficial to help you reduce energy consumption? 

Mr. ORZA. I don’t think there is anything in the near term or 

even over the next year or two that would have a measurable impact on businesses that are struggling today. 

One thing Mr. Graff might tell you is what are the miles per gallon for an 18-wheeler? 

26

Mr. GRAFF. Eighteen-wheeler, anywhere from between 3.9 to--we 

haul heavy. We are in the beer industry. So we are at 180,000 

pounds, 4 and a half miles will go to 3.9 to maybe 6. I would say 

the average is probably five something per mile. 

Whether you can get on those industries, the manufacturing industries and the trucks, the way the government has got on the 

automobile manufacturers to increase their fuel mileage might be 

something you could look at. 

Mr. ORZA. Congressman, if I may make a couple of quick points 

that really are kind of outside, but they are big picture. You know, 

the U.S. energy industry has led the world for 100 years. 

That is now being challenged by the growth that is occurring in 

China and Russia. Both of them now are in the energy business. 

And they are challenging us. And it is showing up in their political 

power, their military power, and their economic power. 

No one wants more pollution. There isn’t an energy company or 

a trucking company or any of us that want more pollution. But we 

have got to drill. We have got to explore. And that does mean off 

the coast, and it probably eventually does mean new places like 

Alaska. 

It is good that we are using up Saudi oil before we use our own, 

but we are going to have to use our own as well. The industry has 

been pretty good in terms of drilling and cleanliness and spills and 

things of that sort. There are exceptions, but generally speaking we 

have been good at it. 

You mentioned earlier we haven’t built a refinery in this country 

in a long time. That is a solution, but it is a long-term solution. 

And, finally--forgive me. I don’t remember the exact numbers, 

but somewhere over the next 10 or 15 years, China and India will 

add one billion new cars to the roadways. What does that do to the 

price of oil or gas or diesel? And we have got to be planning for 

that because we could be put out of business by nations that do 

have the different economy that is more socialistic and will support 

what they need to do to become military or economic powers at our 

expense. 

Ms. FALLIN. You mentioned in your testimony, Dr. Orza, something about the Manhattan Project. And I think we didn’t get to 

that portion of your testimony. Do you want to tell us real quickly 

what that means? 

Dr. ORZA. Yes. You know, I am 57. So I don’t remember the Manhattan Project, but I do know that there was a point at which the 

government said to the most brilliant people in America and 

around the world, ‘‘We need to do something. We need a way to win 

a war, to end a war.’’ This is a different kind of war. There is 

enough genius in this country to find great alternative solutions for 

energy. 

We get some comfort from knowing that a lot of this Committee 

comes from Texas, Pennsylvania, Oklahoma, you know, oil and gas 

states. Our American industry and our leaders of those companies 

and the people coming out of our colleges and universities can find 

alternatives. 

There are solutions. There are good ones. France figured out a 

long time ago, like it or not, nuclear works. And they have done 

it very, very well in France. We are afraid of some of these things, 

27

but we haven’t been investing the money to make America energyindependent. 

Richard Nixon talked about it. It is the first time I remember 

hearing about it. That is nearly 30 years ago. We have got to invest 

the time and money. And oil companies at 100 bucks a barrel are 

now spending the money to find alternatives because they know as 

well this is a dead end street at some point. And we need alternatives. 

Mr. URBANCHUK. Yes. Just to add to that, I think it is very, very 

important that we recognize that we are in a truly global economy 

and that what happens in other countries, and China and India 

particularly, is examples of rapidly growing and developing, literally moving from bicycles to internal combustion engines are putting tremendous pressure on resources globally. That means that 

we do need to move aggressively in developing new technology, not 

only in the area of biofuels but in the area of hydrogen and other 

alternatives. 

And there are people working on that. And we need continued incentives to stimulate that work, but we also need additional exploration and use of our own resources. And at the same time, we 

need to build that capacity to turn those resources into finished 

products. 

So it is a broad range of efforts that all have to move forward 

at the same time. The market is going to determine where we go 

with regard to those. And government can play a role in that. But 

the best thing government can do is, frankly, get out of the land, 

let businesses work most effectively in making those decisions. 

But, again, the problem is what we are talking about here are 

medium and long-term impacts. And it is sort of like the energy 

bill, the 2005 energy bill. There is a great deal of criticism of the 

fact that not much was going to happen about this. And people 

stopped to forget the fact that if you don’t do something, you don’t 

take some concrete first steps, nothing is ever going to get done. 

Before we know it, we are going to be in that medium and longterm. 

So we have to act today. And we have got to take those aggressive steps on all of those fronts simultaneously in order to really 

address this problem effectively. 

Chairman ALTMIRE. Thank you. 

And I know I said that that was the last question, but I understand Mr. Ellsworth has another question. So he is recognized for 

five minutes. 

Mr. ELLSWORTH. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I won’t take five minutes 

unless our guests do. 

This may be a little non-germane, but just sitting here thinking 

of Mr. Graff and Mr. Gilberti, did the recent stimulus package that 

we passed have any--I heard both ways on businesses-- impact in 

your businesses or the people you represent? Will it help from the 

business end, maybe not a personal end? Maybe Mr. Williford down 

there can chime in if we had any effect in that in the people you 

represent? 

Mr. GILBERTI. It may affect my employees a little bit and their 

ability--one of the problems we have had with fuel prices is employees starting to look elsewhere to go to work because they want to 

28

be closer to their employment now because they have to commute. 

Maybe the stimulus package would be able to put some of that 

money to fuel to help them stay where they are working. 

Mr. ELLSWORTH. I was talking more about, you know, the business equipment and the--I have lost the word that I am looking for. 

The tax credits, I think Mr. Urbanchuk said that or Dr. Orza, helping with tax credits on the equipment side. So I didn’t know if you 

had any opinions or were getting feedback from that. 

I had one trucking representative say, ‘‘I can’t afford to buy new 

trucks and depreciate my trucks. I can’t afford to buy a truck because I can’t make any money in the trucking business.’’ That is 

what brought it to my mind. 

Mr. WILLIFORD. Representative Ellsworth, the accelerated depreciation has helped us some. But to sort of sidestep the issue there, 

there are things that the small business community and those who 

are interested in small business can do, sort of like Mr. Urbanchuk 

mentioned, if the government could step out of the way just a little 

bit, reduce the regulatory burden, the recordkeeping requirements 

on small business. 

Tort reform. In a former life, I was an attorney. So I know of 

what I speak. You know, that would be a big help. And I know that 

there has been pending in Congress before an effort for the government to withhold three percent on contractors for all of their contracts. The average profit, sort of like Mr. Graff said, the average 

profit for contractors is three percent. So you will be taking our 

profits. And I urge you all to oppose that with all your might. 

Mr. ELLSWORTH. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you all for your 

testimony. 

Chairman ALTMIRE. Thank you again for telling your stories. 

This helps us work through the issue and look at what the next 

steps might be. This is the first of what we hope will be an ongoing 

dialogue with each of you. And please feel free to contact any of us 

individually or through the Committee with any concerns or recommendations that you might have moving forward. 

At this time I ask unanimous consent that members will have 

five days to submit statements and supporting materials for the 

record. Without objection, so ordered. 

The hearing is now adjourned. 

[Whereupon, at 11:27 a.m., the foregoing matter was concluded.]

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