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• - U.S. DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION OFFICE OF HEARINGS WASHINGTON, DC**~----------------------~** In the Matter of: TGI FREIGHT FAA Docket No. CP10NM0012 DMS No. FAA-2010-1079 1**~----------------------~** 

# RECEIVED Thursday September 20, 2012 

### OCT 1

## 22012 Federal Building arlcJ.EARiNG

## DOCKET U.S. Courthouse 222 West 7th Avenue Anchorage, AK 99513 The above-entitled matter came on for hearing, pursuant notice, at 9:15 a.m. BEFORE: RICHARD C. GOODWIN Administrative Law Judge

(202) 234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• APPEARANCES: FOR THE COMPLAINANT: MS. CHERYL JONES, ESQ. Office of Regulatory Counsel Alaska Region Federal Aviation Administration 222 West 7th Avenue, Box #14 Anchorage, Alaska 99513 FOR THE RESPONDENT: MS. REBECCA HOZUBIN, ESQ. Hozubin Moberly Attorneys at Law 310 K Street Suite 405 Anchorage, Alaska 99501

(202) 234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 2

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• CONTENTS OPENING STATEMENT BY COMPLAINANT OPENING STATEMENT BY RESPONDENT . 6 12 3

WITNESSES: DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS FOR THE COMPLAINANT: Patrick Anteau 14 39 41 Jose Gaytan 44 61 66 Robert Dexheimer 68 80 82 Jeffrey Deitz 84 174 EXHIBITS COMPLAINANT 1 document 2 document 3 document 8 incident report 9 email 10 email 11 articles of incorporation 12 bi-annual report 14 bi-annual report 19 MSDS 21 letter 22 letter 24 cargo spot note 26 notes 27 project summary sheet 28 email 29 training history 30 training courses 34 MSDSs 35 appendix 

### c

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99 116 117 120 104 104 104 105

80 112 123 125 135 143

20 38 74 95 160 169

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• 4 1 P R 0 C E E D I N G S 2 (9:13a.m.) 3 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. We're on 4 record on TGI Freight, which is FAA
-- DMS No. 5 FAA-2010-1079. Counsel, do you want to 6 identify yourself for the record, please? 7 MS. HOZUBIN: Rebecca Hozubin for 8 TGI Freight. 9 MS. JONES: Cheryl Jones with

-- 10 JUDGE GOODWIN: Hold on. Is that 11 Huntsman? 12 MS. HOZUBIN: Hozubin, 13 H-0-Z-U-B-I-N. 14 JUDGE GOODWIN: A-B-I-N? I have a 15 hearing problem. 16 MS. HOZUBIN: Oh, I'm sorry. It's 17 H-0- Z-U-B-I-N. 18 JUDGE GOODWIN: And for the FAA? 19 MS. JONES: Cheryl Jones. 20 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. A couple of 21 preliminary matters. I originally thought we 22 were going to have to break at 10:00 to NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 5 1 

### accommodate the bankruptcy court, but we 2 don't. I normallybreak sometime around 10:30 3 for about ten or fifteen minutes, break for 4 lunch around noon, and then break sometime 5 

### around 2 : 30 or 3 :00. We'll conclude the 6 hearing, whether we're done or not, at 4:30 7 today and I'm going to ask you to be out of 8 the building by 5:00. FAA, of course, is in 9 the building. That doesn't apply to you. I've 10 got a hearing disability so if I ask you to 11 

### speak up, it's not you. It's me. And I can 12 

### thank the VA for that. 13 A couple of preliminary matters. 14 I mentioned to respondents' representative 15 yesterday-- when you-- I don't care what

-- 16 how you identify your exhibits, as long as you 17 don't identify them using the same letters or 18 numbers. Secondly, make sure you review all 19 your exhibits. I want redacted any personal 20 identifying information. That includes home 21 

### phone numbers, home addresses. When the 22 witnesses testify, have them use a business NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 6 1 address. And if that's a security issue, let 2 me know. I don't know what the case is about, 3 but if anything comes up that is sensitive, I 4 incline toward sealing the record. Everything 5 we do today will go on the internet. The 6 transcript goes on the internet, exhibits go 7 on the internet. 8 And with that in mind, 1n this 9 environment, I'd err on the side of caution. 10 And that includes everything from financial 11 records to -- well, I've had a number of cases 12 where just the manner in which things are 13 shipped, if the information were disclosed on 14 the internet it would probably lead to people 15 gettingkilled, let alone the securityissues. 16 I think that's all I can think of at this 17 time. If I think of something else, I'11 18 bring it up. 19 So, Ms. Jones, do you want to make 20 an open1ng statement or proceed? 21 MS. JONES: Yes, Your Honor, I 22 would. This case concerns the FAA inmore than NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 7 1 

### one matter. The FAA
-- it starts with the FAA 2 needing a weather camera out on New Eddy 3 Island, to be installed, which is an island 4 out in southeast Alaska. We have a contractor 5 which consists actually of two contractor 6 

### entities, Parsons and Lockheed Martin. And 7 they worked together

-- bought the contract 8 from FAA to install this weather camera out on 9 

### a remote island. To install the weather 10 camera they needed to put it into some rocks. 11 

### And they needed the appropriate 12 material, one of which we are going to be 13 discussing in this case, Pro-Poxy 400, which 14 is used to cement the base of the weather 15 camera into the rock. Parsons mobilized the 16 material to go out to the island, meaning to 17 get out there, there is a small window of 18 

### opportunity. You will hear testimony

-- in 19 order to get it out there and to do the 20 project in the window that they had, they 21 needed to airship some of it out there. Some 22 of the material they needed to take you will NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 8 1 

### hear was hazardous. It was identified as such 2 by Parsons. Parsons in shipping it utilized 3 the FAA facility. 4 

### You'll hear testimony that they 5 took it to -- via the project lead Jose Gaytan 6 took it to Mr. Dexheimer, who is an FAA 7 employee. And the shipping logistics employee 8 of FAA identified it as -- the Pro-Poxy itself 9 

### as probable hazardous material. Took it to 10 him. Indicated it was hazmat and therefore 11 

### needed to go to TGI Freight, as Parsons had a 12 contract with TGI Freight for shipment of 13 hazmat material. So they took it over to TGI 14 Freight, told TGI Freight that the material 15 obviously here was hazmat and could they 16 please get it over to Ketchikan quickly. And 17 TGI Freight accepted it. 18 And as the expert shippers, took 19 it and agreed to ship it

-- forward it. TGI 20 Freight, as the expert, took the material that 21 theywere given, whichwas six containers, and 22 then shipped it. Unfortunately, they did not NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 9 1 

### ship all of them as hazmat. And you'll hear 2 

### testimony that the they looked at the 3 Pro-Poxy and because on the container

-- the 4 small cardboard box, that they didn't see any 5 obvious markings or labeling of flames, that 6 they decided that it wasn't hazardous. So 7 rather than

-- well, they did open the box and 8 look at the tube itself. 9 And they didn't see any flames or 10 markings on it to indicate that it was 11 

### hazardous to them so they didn't inquire any 12 further. Although they did note that it said 13 Pro-Poxy and it said it was an epoxy and that 14 there was other wordings on it that should 15 have triggered them to look further. They did 16 not look any further. They did not check any 17 MSDSs. Instead they decided that it was -- did 18 not meet any further packaging and shipped it 19 as a regular shipment. And therefore sent it 20 undeclared. 21 So when the material arrived

-- 22 

### well, they sent it over to Alaska Airlines. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com•https://www.fedex.com/shippinglhtml/en/PrintiFrame.htmlFrom:(202)234-4433OriginID:BZSAfec:l2w'ShipDate:110CT12NealGross®Ac!Wgt4.0LB1323RHODEISLANDAVENWWashington,DC20005SHIPTO:(202)385-8229BILLSENDERHearingDocketClerk,AGC430FederalAviationAdministration600INDEPENDENCEAVESWWILBURWRIGHTBLDGSTE2W1000WASHINGTON,DC20591ylIIllI[\1rII)\I'AIlI)1I:IfI1,1Ref#L0920.0921DOTInvoice#PO#Dept#TRK#79Io2o119175203114FRI-12OCTA1STANDARDOVERNIGHT2059119WASADC-USDCA,_,,,,--....,-..·---·-··--,,..__......,,

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• 10 1 

### Split it out from the other hazardous 2 materials, which you will hear there was a 3 fire extinguisher and some ammunition topower 4 

### some -- power materials for the project. That 5 

### was ln fact hazardous. That got sent. And 6 

### when Mr. Gaytan got to Ketchikan to collect 7 

### his materials, he learned that he was missing 8 

### some part of his shipment. And when he went 9 

### to the Alaska Airlines counter, you will hear 10 

### that he was informed that part of his shipment 11 

### was missing. 12 And he goes that he didn't 13 understandbecause he took thematerial to TGI 14 Freight as hazmat and paid them to fill out 15 

### the shipping papers. But because he didn't 16 need the Pro-Poxy immediately, he needed to 17 catch a boat and therefore went out about his 18 job. So he finished his job. Gets back into 19 

### Anchorage. You'll hear testimony that they 20 then went over to TGI Freight to find out what 21 had happened. 22 And they spoke

-- you will hear NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 11 1 testimony that they spoke withMr. Clark. And 2 Mr. Clark-- you'll hear from Mr. Gaytan that 3 Mr. Clark attempted to explain via an MSDS 4 that it wasn't hazardous, but that he would 5 take care of the issue. You'll hear testimony 6 that they in fact did ship that very same 7 material 1n the 9.3-ounce tubes that they 8 originally tried to ship and that it in fact 9 did get out to Ketchikan timely such that they 10 completed their project. 11 And that in order to do that, they 12 shipped it via air properly, so that Parsons, 13 Lockheed Martin, FAA contractors were able to 14 complete their project. So TGI Freight, as 15 the hazardous materials experts, the secondgo 16 around did ship via air this product which is 17 hazardous, flammable. TGI Freight does admit 18 that via air properly the second time around. 19 It's just the first time around they shipped 20 it undeclared and hence the violation in this 21 case. 22 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Does NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 12 1 respondent want to reserve or do you want to 2 open now? It's your call. 3 MS. HOZUBIN: I just have a few 4 brief opening comments, Your Honor. 5 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sure. 6 MS. HOZUBIN: It's a fairly simple 7 case. We have a situation where the 8 manufacturer failed to properly label its 9 product and failed to properly mark its 10 containers. The product was an epoxy. The 11 outerpackaging was not marked with the proper 12 shipping name. It didn't have a UN number. 13 The inner containers did display one symbol 14 that warned of a possible poisonous reaction 15 to a person who is repeatedly exposed to small 16 amounts. That was the onlymarking. And that 17 marking indicated only that it

-- the material 18 may be irritating to the skin after prolonged 19 exposure. This does not make it a hazardous 20 material. There was no marking or labeling of 21 any kind to show that the epoxy was flammable 22 or hazardous 1n any way. You will hear NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 13 1 testimony that not all epoxies are regulated. 2 In fact, many of them are completely 3 unregulated. You will hear testimony that TGI 4 relied on the representations of the 5 manufacturer on its product and on its 6 shipping containers. And you' 11 hear 7 testimony that TGI properly relied on the 8 manufacturer's representations. 9 It's a fairly simple case, Your 10 Honor. 11 Thank you. 12 JUDGE GOODWIN: Will the FAA call 13 your first witness. 14 MS. JONES: Your Honor, the FAA 15 calls Patrick Anteau. 16 JUDGE GOODWIN: Either party want 17 to roll on witnesses? 18 MR. ANTEAU: What's that? 19 JUDGE GOODWIN: No. No. Either 20 counsel want to roll on witnesses? That's 21 what we called it in Maryland

-- sequester. 22 The witness can approach the witness stand. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 14 1 

### MS. HOZUBIN: We have no objection 2 as to witnesses being present, Your Honor. 3 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Stand and raise 4 your right hand. 5 (Oath administered) 6 

### MR. ANTEAU: I do. 7 

### PATRICK THOMAS ANTEAU 8 called as a witness on behalf of the 9 complainant, testified as follows on: 10 DIRECT EXAMINATION 11 JUDGE GOODWIN: Please be seated. 12 State your full name for the record and spell 13 your first and last name. 14 A 

### Patrick Thomas Anteau, 15 P-A-T-R-I-C-K. Last name's Anteau, 16 A-N-T-E-A-U. 17 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Another rule I 18 have to help the court reporter out. If she 19 hears something that she doesn't understandor 20 needs to be spelled, I'm going to ask her to 21 raise her hand. That's everybody's signal to 22 stop and spell it. So at 5:00 o'clock this NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 15 1 afternoon she isn't tearing her hair out 2 trying to figure out what we just said. 3 A Fair enough. 4 JUDGE GOODWIN: Counsel? 5 BY MS. JONES: 6 Q Mr. Anteau, where do you work? 7 A I work for Lockheed Martin as via 8 excuse me. I work for Lockheed Martin. I 9 am a regional program manager for the 10 technical support services regional office 1n 11 Anchorage. And contracts held in prime by 12 Parsons Corporation. 13 Q And what is it that you do for 14 them? 15 A I'm a regional program manager. I 16 manage field operations in the Alaska region 17 on the contracts. I have a staff of 18 approximately 45 people, including engineers, 19 drafters, and field technicians. 20 Q And what type of projects do you 21 do? 22 A We are a -- our office is in sole NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 16 1 support of the FAA improvements to the 2 national air space system. We do construction 3 management, engineering design, drafting 4 support, and field electronics installation. 5 Q And are one of the projects that 6 you work on have to do with the weather 7 cameras? 8 A Yes. We do do

-- we have several 9 taskorders supportingdevelopment orfielding 10 of weather camera sites throughout Alaska. 11 Q Did you work on a weather camera 12 at 1n southeast Alaska? The one involved 13 1n this particular case? 14 A Yes. Our staff completed the 15 installation of that site in 2010. 16 Q And what weather camera was this 17 one? 18 A The title for the weather camera 19 was Misty Fiords weather camera. It's in 20 support -- or in the Misty Fiords National 21 Monument outside of Ketchikan. 22 MS. JONES: Your Honor, this may NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 17
1 be a little bit easier if I do it this way. 2 JUDGE GOODWIN: And do it whatever 3 way counsel wants. 4 MS. JONES: Okay. 5 JUDGE GOODWIN: It's all right. 6 I've tried cases for 20 years and I've done 7 more different ones than I could imagine. 8 MS. JONES: Many different ways. 9 Okay. I thought maybe what I would do is hand 10 some exhibits to the court reporter. The 11 complainant's exhibits so that she would have 12 them all. I don't know if that would be 13 easier. 14 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yeah. Why don't 15 you put them up here on the bench. What I do, 16 counsel, I take the original exhibits. 17 MS. JONES: Okay. 18 JUDGE GOODWIN: And I
-- what I do 19
-- once we finish the hearing I will send the 20 original exhibits to Ms. Matthews in 21 Washington and she'll take them down to BMS. 22 And what she does as a part of it

-- she also NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 18 1 

### scans things to make sure none of us have 2 inadvertently put any personal, identifying 3 information ln the file. 4 

### MS. JONES: Okay. 5 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: And if she finds 6 something, what she'll do is call you and-- 7 call the two of you. The two of you can work 8 it out. 9 

### MS. JONES: Okay. Okay. Let me 10 

### do that and make it easier. If I may 11 

### approach, Your Honor? 12 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. 13 Q 

### Mr. Anteau, I'm going to hand you 14 what's been marked as complainant's Exhibit 15 C-27. 16 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Counsel, just so 17 you all know the way I mark exhibits. When I 18 get them, I put ID on them, which means you're 19 

### a part of the administrative record. When 20 they're admitted, I will line through ID and 21 put the date on it. That way when you see the 22 exhibits you'll understand. I won't
-- I'll NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 19 1 probably ask you at the end of the hearing to 2 go through the exhibits to make sure that 3 everything you wanted to admit was admitted 4 and what wasn't and so forth. So I'm 5 fairly liberal on that, but I just want to let 6 you know how I do things so you won't 7 you're not surprised at the end of the 8 hearing. I'm sorry. Go ahead, counsel. 9 Q Okay. And marked for ID is 10 complainant's exhibit

-- 11 JUDGE GOODWIN: I just put in 12 pencil ID. When it's admitted, I line through 13 the ID and put the date on it. 14 Q Okay. Marked for ID, 15 complainant's exhibit 

## c- 27. Mr. Anteau, 16 could you tell me what that is? 17 A This is a project summary sheet 18 that we put together after the project was 19 complete, kind of as bulletizing the 20 accomplishments and showing a picture of the 21 completed facility. 22 Q And what project was that for? NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 20 1 A 

### That was for the Misty Fiords 2 weather camera site. 3 Q 

### So 1s this a fair and accurate 4 summary of the Misty Fiords project? 5 A 

### Yes, it is. It summarizes some of 6 

### the preliminary work we had to do, of the 7 

### logistics that we encountered. And like I 8 say, it's

-- or it shows a picture of the 9 

### completed site. 10 MS. JONES: Your Honor, I ask that 11 

### complainant's exhibit C-27 be admitted into 12 evidence. 13 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Counsel? 14 

### MS. HOZUBIN: No objection, Your 15 Honor. 16 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Exhibit C-27 for 17 identification 1s received into evidence as 18 Exhibit C-27. 19 

### (Complainant's exhibit C-27 20 admitted) 21 JUDGE GOODWIN: The other thing 22 you'll find when you look at the internet, I NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 21 1 try to always put a spreadsheet 1n front of 2 the exhibits, which is similar to what all of 3 you probably do. And when you're trying cases 4 it essentially identifies it, marks whether 5 it's ID or whether it's in. I don't have a 6 printer here so I can't print it. But I have 7 in past cases actually printed it out for 8 everybody to review. But when you go on the 9 internet to look at everything, generally it's 10 probably a week or two after the hearing the 11 exhibits show up on the internet. Go ahead, 12 counsel. Sorry. 13 Q With the Misty Fiords project, 14 which one of your employees was in charge of 15 that project? 16 A Jose Gaytan was our lead 17 installation technician on that project. 18 Q When trying to get the 19 construction items out to the site, 1s that 20 typically very easy or very -- or somewhat 21 difficult? 22 A Our
-- well, all of our projects NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 22 1 inAlaska are un1que. Logistics plays a large 2 role in everything we do. In this particular 3 case, the island is

-- well, the island is a 4 very small island. There are no facilities 5 there. Everything all of our freight was 6 consolidated here in Anchorage and had to be 7 deployed to Ketchikan, where it was put onto 8 a smaller landing craft type boat and 9 transported out to the site for the 10 construction effort. 11 Q So does everything get shipped to 12 the project site by boat? 13 A In this particular case or in 14 general? 15 Q In this case. 16 A In this case, the bulk of the 17 materials were shipped to the site via truck 18 and barge. We had a Conex that we included 19 shipment. We have a large bundle of aluminum 20 structure structural members, fiberglass 21 shelter, solar panels. Other miscellaneous 22 tools and equipment were consolidated in a NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 23 1 Conex here in Anchorage and transported into 2 Ketchikan via truck and barge carrier. 3 Q You indicated a large part? 4 A Some of the materials that were 5 not being able were not able to be 6 consolidated into the shipment

-- because the 7 barge took some lead time in order to sail

-- 8 was shipped via air. So we did have quite a 9 bit of smaller shipments that went down via 10 air from Anchorage to Ketchikan. 11 Q And how does Parsons do their 12 shipping? 13 A We are on a -- because we are on a 14 FAA contract, we are -- our field folks are 15 located at the FAA logistics complex at the 16 airport. And as a -- as part of the contract, 17 typically our shipping is handled by the FAA 18 shipping logistics folks at the complex. Our 19 crews will consolidate materials for a 20 particular job and then turn them over to the 21 FAA logistics manager, who will then transfer 22 them to the shipping the shippers for NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 24 1 

### transportation. 2 Q 

### And who is the FAA logistics man? 3 A 

### Robert Dexheimer. 4 Q 

### Is there any difference when 5 Parsons handles regular material versus 6 hazardous materials? 7 A 

### Our project leads, as they're 8 gathering their tools and equipment

-- as they 9 identify items that are known hazardous 10 materials or suspected hazardous materials, 11 

### they'll segregate those materials on separate 12 pallets or containers. And are typically 13 identified to Robert Dexheimer that these are 14 hazardous materials. And they're

-- at that 15 point they go to TGI Freight for manifesting. 16 That's the policy of

-- or FAA has used TGI 17 

### Freight. And because of that, Parsons also 18 uses TGI Freight for hazardous material 19 declaration paperwork. 20 Q 

### Does Parsons have some sort of an 21 agreement with TGI Freight? 22 A 

### We do have an account with TGI NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 25 1 Freight. 2 Q Are any of your employees trained 3 in hazardous materials shipping? 4 A No. Not the

-- no. They're not 5 certified in hazardous material 6 transportation. 7 Q Do they have do any of your 8 employees have some hazardous materials 9 training of any type? 10 A All of our employees receive OSHA 11 required hazardous communication training. 12 Basically, they're all

-- as part of their 13 safety and on- boarding training, they're 14 instructed on how to read MSDSs primarily for 15 personal employee safety. 16 Q Do you know whether or not -- what 17 type do you know what types of hazardous 18 materials or whether any hazardous 19 materials were used on the weather cam job in 20 southeast? 21 MS. HOZUBIN: Objection. 22 Foundation, Your Honor. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 26 1 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Overruled. 2 A 

### Yes, we did. Our installation 3 team had identified potential hazardous 4 

### materials pr1or to their shipment. They 5 included the Pro-Poxy, some fiberglass repair 6
-- a fiberglass repairkit, exothermic welding 7 materials, batteries, a generator with oil in 8 it, and I think some ammunition for a powder 9 actuated tool. 10 Q 

### And how were you made aware of 11 

### that? 12 A 

### I was -- verbally. I knew the 13 

### team was getting ready and mobilizing their 14 

### materials. They had identified those. I know 15 

### that they were trying to coordinate with the 16 

### trucking company that we were planning on 17 

### using to move the materials down. So those 18 

### materials were identified to them so that they 19 

### could determine how they were best to be 20 handled with going that route -- via the truck 21 

### the truck and barge operation. 22 Q 

### Did you hear anything .else about NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 27 1 it? 2 MS. HOZUBIN: Objection. Hearsay. 3 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sustained. 4 Q Did you receive any other 5 information concerning the hazardous materials 6 being shipped to the site? 7 MS. HOZUBIN: Objection. Hearsay. 8 JUDGE GOODWIN: Overruled. 9 Q You can answer that. 10 A We had a lot of

-- we've got -- we 11 always have a lot of projects going on, so 12 there's a lot of things in flux. I knew-- I 13 was aware that they were consolidating gear 14 for-- to go to the site. I don't know about 15 any more details on the particulars as to the 16 hazmat items in

-- that we're talking about. 17 Q Did you receive any emails 18 concern1ng the hazardous materials items? 19 A I don't believe I received any 20 emails prior to the shipment. 21 Q How about after the shipment? 22 A After the shipment and after we NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 28 1 had learned that there was a -- that part of 2 the freight was -- did not make it, we started 3 doing some investigating as to what was 4 shipped and trying to verify what happened 5 with the undeclared hazmat. So some of the

-- 6 we -- I had several of my employees forward 7 email traffic that we were discussing the 8 items in question. 9 Q Okay. So did you receive some 10 emails? 11 A I did. I did. I received emails 12 from between my field installation folks and 13 my installationmanager, Jose Soto, discussing 14 what was being

-- or discussing the logistics 15 of the shipments and identifying thepotential 16 hazardous items. 17 Q And what did you learn? 18 MS. HOZUBIN: Objection. Hearsay. 19 JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, it lS 20 hearsay, but in administrative hearings the 21 case law is clear that hearsay is admissible. 22 So I'll overrule the objection. It goes to NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 29 1 

### weight. 2 A 

### So what was the question again? 3 Q 

### What did you learn from your 4 investigations from the email? 5 A 

### Well, the

-- like I say, my staff 6 had identified the listed items. Aportion of 7 them

-- like I say, originally the plan was to 8 ship everything via barge. It turned out that 9 we needed to send a crew -- an advance crew to 10 do some survey work and do an assessment on 11 

### the quality of the rock and the

-- a tool that 12 we were going to use to try to anchor some 13 

### things into the rock. Because of that we 14 needed the power actuated tool down to the 15 site sooner than the barge was going to be 16 there. So we had the

-- my staff had the list 17 

### of hazardous materials there. The powder 18 actuated tools were part of that equipment 19 that needed to go down

-- or part of those 20 hazardous iterns. And the decision was made to 21 ship all of that via air, to simplify the 22 

### manifesting and have all the hazardous NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 30 1 

### material there now delivered 1n one shipment. 2 That was done via air. 3 Q 

### And was -- so you said to simplify 4 it, including all the hazardous materials. 5 What was part of that? Did you learn what was 6 

### included in that shipment? 7 A I believe it

-- well, it was the 8 epoxy, the powder actuated tools and

-- or 9 

### tool and ammunition, fiberglass repa1r kit 10 that included a resin and a hardener in it. 11 Afire extinguisher and some cad

-- exothermic 12 weld

-- cad weld material. 13 

### MS. JONES: Your Honor, may I 14 approach the bench? 15 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. 16 Q 

### Mr. Anteau, I'm handing you what's 17 been marked for identification complainant's 18 Exhibit C-28. Can you identify that, please? 19 A 

### This lS 

### an email that was 20 forwarded to -- that I received after the 21 incident, that included the coordination 22 discussions between my field staff and my NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 31 

### 1 buyer who was making arrangements for the 2 shipment of the materials for the site. 3 Q 

### Is this then the email traffic 4 that you had just been discussing? 5 A 

### Correct. 6 Q 

### Does this email include the 7 hazardous materials that your team had 8 identified? 9 A 

### It does. 10 Q 

### So on page -- can you turn to page 11 three? 12 A 

### Yes. 13 Q 

### The last page? 14 A 

### Okay. 15 Q 

### Is the Pro-Poxy listed on that 16 email? 17 A 

### Yes. Second item on the list. 18 Q 

### Did your staff include the MSDS 19 for Pro-Poxy? Look at page one. 20 A 

### Yes, they did. They provided

-- 21 

### at the time, they were this was -- they 22 were corresponding with the company and they
NEAL

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• 32 1 provided the MSDS for the Pro-Poxy, along with 2 the other items to them, for information. 3 Q So in your position at Parsons, 4 did you when

-- did you learn whether or 5 not the

-- all the hazardous items made it out 6 v1a a1r initially to Misty Fiords project? To 7 the Misty Fiords project? 8 A I think I was first aware that 9 there was a problem when we received the 10 letter of investigation from the FAA security 11 that there was some undeclared hazmat on the 12 shipment. At that point we started doing

-- 13 or trying to get a hold of Jose and

-- who was 14 out 1n the field at the time, to determine 15 what happened. But I
-- we were first made 16 aware that

-- we may have gotten a call from 17 Alaska Airlines, but I don't know that for 18 sure, indicating that there was undeclared 19 hazmat on the shipment. 20 Q And so what did you do? 21 A We first had to get a hold of Jose 22 Gaytan, who was coming back from being out on NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 33 1 the island and out of cell range. He got back 2 to Ketchikan. We inquired with him as to what 3 happened. He indicated that Alaska Airlines 4 in Ketchikan had told him that part of the 5 shipment didn't make it to Ketchikan and that 6 there was a hazmat issue. At that point we -- 7 he came back that following day. And he met 8 with Bob Dexheimer and they both walked over 9 to TGI to determine what had happened with the 10 shipment. 11 Q And did you speak with Jose Gaytan 12 after that? 13 A I did. 14 Q And what did you say? 15 A Well, I asked him what transpired 16 at the meeting with TGI. He indicated that 17 primarily we were concerned because we were 18 the addressee or the my company or 19 Parsons was identified as the shipper on the 20 letter of investigation. Jose indicated that 21 TGI accepted responsibility for the shipment 22 and that they would contact the FAA NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com34 1 investigator regarding the case. 2 Q And what happened after that? 3 A I believe TGI issued or sent a 4 letter to the FAA indicating that they were 5 the responsible party for the declaration and 6 that they would be responding to the 7 investigation. 8 Q Do you know whether or not all the 9 material got out to the job site? 10 A It did. It was shipped later that 11 month or early the following month via air 12 cargo to the job site

-- or to Ketchikan. 13 Q And how do you know that? 14 A We received it in Ketchikan via 15 ACE Air Transport. And we were able to 16 complete the project. 17 Q How do you know it was received 18 Vla ACE? 19 A We have a copy of a waybill 20 indicating that was the way it was 21 transported. 22 MS. JONES: Your Honor, may I NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 36 1 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: I have C-37. 2 

### MS. JONES: See if you see another 3 

### copy. This is not a very good copy. It is 4 not a very good copy. I don't know if this is 5 any better, Your Honor. You can see if this 6 

### one's any better. 7 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Yeah. But 8 there's still an objection pending. Counsel, 9 what's your position with respect to FAA 38 10 for identification? 11 

### MS. HOZUBIN: Our position, Your 12 Honor? 13 JUDGE GOODWIN: The FAA's 14 position. 15 

### MS. HOZUBIN: Oh. 16 

### MS. JONES: Well, the FAA's 17 position is that Mr. Anteau has indicated that 18 this is the waybill that the company received 19 from ACE, indicating that on 3/2 ACE shipped 20 theirmaterial, which is a dangerous goods per 21 the attached shippers declaration, out to 22 

### Ketchikan for Parsons. That TGI Freight had NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 37 1 

### been the company that shipped it via ACE out 2 to their site

-- the material. And this is 3 

### their what they got showing that TGI 4 Freight in fact did ship their material. They 5 received it and it went via ACE this time. 6 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: I understand that. 7 

### But counsel's objection is this is the first 8 

### time she'd seen it. It was not disclosed 9 pursuant to discovery. 10 

### MS. JONES: And this is true, Your 11 Honor. I just got this copy yesterday. So I 12 provided it. 13 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Objection 14 is sustained. 15 

### MS. JONES: Okay. I also ask that 16 complainant's Exhibit C-28 for IDbe admitted. 17 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Counsel? 18 MS. HOZUBIN: One moment, Your 19 Honor. 20 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: You want a minute 21 to find it? Okay. 22 MS. HOZUBIN: We would object NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 38 1 

### based on hearsay. We would also object based 2 on lack of foundation. And this was disclosed 3 as an exhibit 1n advance of the hearing, but 4 

### I don't believe it was ever disclosed in 5 

### discovery. 6 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Overruled. 7 

### (Complainant's exhibit C-28 8 

### admitted) 9 Q 

### Mr. Anteau, are you familiar with 10 

### Pro-Poxy 400 

### yourself? 11 

### A Yes. We've used the product quite 12 

### extensivelythroughout the, youknow, last few 13 

### years. It's usedprimarilyto anchor threaded 14 

### rods around or rock anchors into rock or 15 

### concrete. We found it to be a very good, 16 

### effective product. It's able to cure at low 17 

### temperatures and when it and even 18 

### underwater. So we have specified it on a lot 19 

### of projects over the years, where we were 20 

### anchoring into bedrock or existing concrete. 21 Q 

### Do you know whether this product 22 is does

-- strike that. Does Parsons ship NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 39 1 

### this as a hazardous materials when it ships 2 it? 3 A 

### When we ship it, yes, we do 4 segregate it as a potential hazardous item. 5 

### Correct. 6 Q 

### I don't have any further questions 7 

### for Mr. Anteau. 8 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 9 

### CROSS EXAMINATION 10 

### BY MS. HOZUBIN: 11 Q 

### Good morning, Mr. Anteau. 12 A 

### Good morning. 13 Q 

### You're an employee of Lockheed 14 

### Martin? 15 A I 

### am. 16 Q 

### You're not employed by Parsons? 17 A 

### Correct. 18 Q 

### Okay. You're not specifically 19 

### trained ln hazardous materials shipping, 20 

### correct? 21 A 

### No. 22 Q 

### You were not physically involved NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 40 1 with the project in Ketchikan, correct? 2 A Not physically, no. 3 Q Okay. And you weren't involved in 4 gathering or segregating any of the equipment 5 or materials that were going to Ketchikan, 6 correct? 7 A Not physically, no. 8 Q Okay. And you weren't involved 9 physicallywith anyof the logistics regarding 10 all the things go1ng to Ketchikan, correct? 11 A Correct. 12 Q And would it be fair to say that 13 your involvement andyour testimonyhere today 14 is primarilybased on things that were told to 15 you by other people such as Mr. Gaytan and 16 others? 17 A Correct. 18 Q All right. And just to clarify, 19 you testified that Parsons
-- not Lockheed 20 Martin, but Parsons would segregate out 21 Pro-Poxy 400 as a potentially hazardous 22 material, correct? NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 41 1 A Yeah. Well, when we say -- our 2 relationship on the contract with Lockheed 3 Martin and Parsons
-- LockheedMartin is a sub 4 to Parsons on the contract; however, we have 5 an intermixed staff. We have both

-- on this 6 project we had both Lockheed Martin and 7 Parsons field folks working on the project. 8 So I would say as a group we refer to 9 ourselves as TSSC Technical Support Service 10 Contracting team. So bothLockheed andMarson 11 -- Lockheed Martin and Parsons would be, you 12 know, considered the same team in this case. 13 Q Okay. But you're employed by 14 Lockheed Martin? 15 A I am. 16 Q All right. Thank you. Nothing 17 further, Your Honor. 18 JUDGE GOODWIN: Redirect? 19 MS. JONES: Yes, Your Honor. 20 JUDGE GOODWIN: Based on questions 21 of respondent? 22 MS. JONES: Correct. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 42 1 

### REDIRECT EXAMINATION 2 

### BY MS. JONES: 3 Q 

### Mr. Anteau, you supervised

-- the 4 

### chain of command to get to Jose Gaytan. It 5 was yourself. And who was under you? 6 A 

### Mr. Jose Soto lS 

### my installation 7 manager. He manages all of our installation 8 team. 9 Q 

### And who does he work for? 10 A 

### He works for Parsons. He's a -- 11 

### as far as company or individually? 12 Q 

### Yeah. 13 A 

### Company? He's a 

### Parsons' 14 employee. 15 Q 

### So you work for Lockheed Martin. 16 Mr. Soto 17 A 

### Is a Parsons' employee. 18 Q 

### Parsons' employee. 19 A 

### Correct. 20 Q 

### And under Mr. Soto was who? 21 A 

### Jose Gaytan, who was our lead 22 

### installation technician for the

-- for this NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 43 1 particular project. 2 Q And he worked for

-- 3 A He works for Lockheed Martin. 4 Q So Lockheed Martin, Parsons, 5 Lockheed Martin. 6 A Correct. And above my level, I 7 you know, we have

-- Parsons 1s the prime on 8 the contract. So it is

-- 9 Q So it's Parsons, Lockheed-- 10 A It is a little complicated, yeah. 11 Q -- Parsons, Lockheed. 12 A Correct. 13 Q So you're saying they're really 14 one entity. 15 A We treat everyone on the on a 16 in our team as equals. So they're it's 17 a joint venture. Technically, Parsons 1s the 18 prime. Lockheed is a sub. But all of our 19 staff are intermixed in all facets of our 20 operation. 21 Q Working under

-- for the FAA. 22 A Under the technical support NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 44 1 

### service contract, correct. 2 Q 

### Thank you. Nothing further. 3 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Anything further 4 of this witness? 5 

### MS. JONES: Not at this time, Your 6 Honor. 7 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Sir, I'm 8 going to instruct you not to discuss your 9 testimonywithanybodypriorto the conclusion 10 

### of the hearing. Since there is no rule on 11 

### witnesses, you can go out of the courtroom. 12 But againyou're not to discuss your testimony 13 with anyone. You may step down. 14 A 

### Thank you. 15 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Call your next 16 witness. Stand and raise your right hand. 17 

### (Oath administered) 18 

### Mr. Gaytan: Yes. 19 

### JOSE NAPOLEON GAYTAN 20 called as a witness on behalf of the 21 complainant, testified as follows on: 22 

### DIRECT EXAMINATION NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• -----------------------------------------
45 1 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Please be seated. 2 State your full name for the record and spell 3 your first and last name. 4 A 

### Spell my first and last name? 5 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. 6 A My name 1s Jose Napoleon Gaytan, 7 

### J-0-S-E. Last name's Gaytan, G-A-Y-T-A-N. 8 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Counsel? 9 

### BY MS. JONES: 10 Q 

### Mr. Gaytan, where are you 11 

### currently employed? 12 A 

### For Lockheed Martin here in 13 Anchorage, Alaska. 14 Q 

### And what do you do for Lockheed 15 Martin? 16 A 

### I'm an electronics technician. 17 Q 

### And how long have you been an 18 electronics technician for Lockheed Martin? 19 A 

### Since June of 2005. 20 Q 

### And what did you do before that? 21 A 

### I worked for PDS, subcontracting 22 for Boeing. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 46 1 Q And what did you do while doing 2 that position? 3 A I was an avionics technician. 4 Q And how long did you hold that 5 position? 6 A From 2001 to 2005. 7 Q As an avionics technician? 8 A Yes. 9 Q And before that? 10 A Garrett Aviation 1n Santa Barbara 11 also an avionics technician-- from '99 to 12 2001. 13 Q And pr1or to that? 14 A I worked for Northrop Grumman as a 15 hydraulics technician. Building F-18 E and F 16 models. 17 Q What was that again? Building

-- 18 A F-18 E and F models. And 19 hydraulics and environmental control systems. 20 Q And you were in that position for 21 about how long? 22 A For about two years. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 47 1 Q And prior to that, what did you 2 do? 3 A Well, during that time I was a 4 reservist for the United States Marine Corps. 5 as a hydraulics mechanic. 6 Q And prior to your time as the 7 reservist, where were you? 8 A Oh. I was a student. Once I 9 graduated high school I went into the Marine 10 Corps. I had other odd jobs. Landers (ph) 11 was another job that I had. And that was a 12 compound mixer. Landers was a -- like a -- 13 they made like shampoos, bubble baths, 14 lotions, and what not. So put them all in a 15 batch and voila, you get shampoos and bubble 16 baths and 17 Q In those positions, have you had 18 any training in hazardous materials? 19 A Yes. 20 Q And what kind of training has that 21 been? 22 A Oh, just like hazardous NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 48 

### 1 communications. Just to let, you know, the 2 workers know what you're working with and how 3 to protect yourself from hazardous materials. 4 Q 

### So are you familiar with material 5 data safety sheets? 6 A 

### Yes, I am. 7 Q 

### In your employment with Lockheed 8 Martin, what type of work do you do? 9 A 

### Various types of work. Mostly nav 10 

### aides. And right now I'm currently working 11 with the weather cameras program. 12 Q 

### Did you work on the Misty Fiords 13 weather camera project? 14 A 

### Yes, I did. 15 Q 

### And what was your responsibilities 16 with that weather camera project? 17 A 

### Well, I was the lead on the 18 project so basically I had to ship stuff, get 19 the workers to, you know, go in step phases of 20 the job, and report progress back to the 21 our office. 22 Q 

### In shipping or mobilizing the NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 49 1 materials for that project, can you describe 2 that for us? 3 A Yes. We had

-- basically we had 4 to get all our materials from Anchorage to the 5 Misty Fiords via truck and barge, for our 6 bigger materials, and through air for smaller 7 materials. And basically gathering all our 8 tools and equipment that we needed for the 9 job. So that was in a nutshell what we did

-- 10 what I did. 11 Q And how exactly does

-- did you do 12 that for that particular project? 13 A Well, prior to getting everything 14 shipped up, we were going out to Misty to go 15 ahead and do kind of like a final site survey. 16 And we were going to go test some materials 17 that we needed. I needed a-- like a ramshot, 18 which is a power actuated gun that carried 19 munitions. I needed that there as I was 20 there, so I needed to ship that via air. So 21 when I got to Ketchikan we were going to catch 22 a boat and go out to Misty. So I needed that
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• 50 1 equipment with me. And since we were there, 2 we took other, you know, equipment that would 3 you know, small pieces that would be, you 4 know, cost-effective to just ship via air out 5 to the site. Even though it was just a site 6 survey we were staging there in Ketchikan. So 7 that's how we did that. The ram jet was 8 hazmat, so we I took it over to our 9 warehouse Robert Dexheimer's, you know, 10 office and, you know, presented a pallet with 11 a bunch of materials that I deemed to be 12 hazardous materials. To take it over to TGI, 13 which is the company that we use for shipping 14 hazardous materials. 15 Q So you worked for Lockheed Martin. 16 There's some discussion here about Parsons. 17 Is Parsons and Lockheed Martin the same? 18 A Yes. They're it's a joint 19 contract. Parsons, Lockheed Martin with a 20 technical services contract. 21 Q Okay. How does Parsons, Lockheed 22 Martin typically ship things? NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 51 1 A 

### Typically, we take it to the FAA 2 warehouse guy, which is Robert Dexheimer. And 3 ship it from there. He usually takes care of 4 it for us. 5 Q 

### Is there a process for shipping if 6 something 1s hazmat? And a different process 7 if it isn't? 8 A 

### Well, yeah. I let him know, hey, 9 this is hazardous material here. Usually he 10 

### runs down to TGI and takes it there. And for 11 

### the stuff that's not hazardous, then he goes 12 

### ahead and ships it via whatever. If we're 13 

### doing a1r carrier, it will be Alaska and 14 

### various other a1r carriers. 15 Q 

### So you indicated earlier that you 16 

### identified some particular things that were 17 

### hazardous material for this particular 18 

### project. 19 A 

### That's correct. 20 Q 

### And how did you do that? 21 A 

### Just looked at the labels and if, 22 you know, the red flag goes out there, you NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 52 1 

### know, then you those are hazardous 2 materials either by signage or MSDSs. 3 Q 

### So for this particular

-- was it a 4 pallet that you took to Dex? 5 A 

### Well, yeah. I had a pallet and 6 then I had materials. So I just threw it all 7 on the pallet so that way it just makes it 8 easier instead of, you know, piecing it out. 9 Put it on a pallet and take it down to our 10 shipping

-- where Dex is at. And tell him, 11 

### hey, this pile here is hazmat and this pile 12 

### over here is not. That's kind of how we do it. 13 Q 

### Do you recall the material that 14 you took to Mr. Dexheimer? 15 A 

### Yeah. It was -- I think it was 16 like a fire extinguisher, the ram gun with the 17 ammunition that goes with it, the fiberglass 18 repair kit, the Pro-Poxy 400. I think that

-- 19 

### some Cadweld shots, I believe. And I think 20 that was it. 21 Q 

### So you took it down to Mr.
-- the 22 hazardous materials down to Mr. Dexheimer.
NEAL

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• 53 1 And do you recall what you told him? 2 A I told him this is hazmat. 3 Q And what did he say? 4 A Okay. He took it down to TGI, 5 which is what we usually do with our hazardous 6 material. 7 Q And then what did you do? 8 A I went back upstairs and finished 9 completing stuff that I needed to do for the 10 job. Setting all the ducks 1n a row and got 11 ready to go on my flight. 12 Q Okay. And you took your flight. 13 And then got 14 A I got to Ketchikan. Then I went 15 to Alaska Airlines to pick up my shipment and 16 some of it didn't make it. 17 Q So what didn't make it? 18 A The Pro-Poxy 400 didn't make it. 19 Q And what did you -- how did you 20 learn that? 21 A The counter person there brought 22 my shipment out. And I told her that it was NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 54 1 missing something. And she gave me a phone 2 number. I told her that's weird. You know, 3 I
-- you know, shipped it and thought it went 4 through TGI so I don't know why it would be 5 held back. She told me it was a -- they called 6 it it was held back because of hazmat. 7 Like undeclared hazmat. 8 Q And what did you say? 9 A I said oh, okay. I'll take care 10 of it later. I was -- you know, a boat was 11 waiting for me to get out where we needed to 12 go. And the only item I needed was that ram 13 jet set to get my job completed. The other 14 stuff I just brought with me, like I said, 15 just to stage it. Because I knew my other gear 16 was go1ng to be coming soon so -- 17 Q Did you tell the agent anything 18 else? 19 A Well, like I said, I had told her, 20 you know, it's weird that that didn't make it. 21 You know, because usually all our hazmat 22 usually gets there. I didn't know why that
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• 55 1 hazmat didn't get to where it needed to. 2 Q So you caught the boat and then 3 what happened? 4 A Then I went and did my job. Got 5 back to the airport. You know, flying back 6 home it was a short trip. And I called my 7 office just to let them know that everything 8 went fine. That, you know, the ram jet wasn't 9 go1ng to work to secure some stuff that we 10 needed out where we are at, going through the 11 rock. And my boss told me anything else? And 12 I'm like, no, not really. And I'm like, oh, 13 yeah. Some of our stuff the shipment 14 didn't make it. He was like okay. Do you 15 know why? And I said no, I didn't know. 16 Something about hazmat. And he was like okay, 17 we'll talk about it when you get back. So 18 that would be the next day when I saw my boss 19 and he let me know kind of what had happened. 20 A letter that was written to our headquarters 21 and saying that, you know, I guess we were in 22 violation for hazardous undeclared for NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 56 1 hazardous materials. 2 Q And then what happened? 3 A Well, I got back and got with 4 Dexheimer. And we walked over to TGI and, you 5 know, presented the letter. Saying what's 6 go1ng on here? What's with this? 7 Q And what do you recall about that 8 con -- who did you meet with at TGI Freight? 9 A Well, there was a gentleman 10 downstairs. And, you know, as you walk into 11 the door. And he went and got somebody else. 12 And he came downstairs. And I showed him the 13 letter. Presented the lawyer to him. And he 14 was like what's

-- you know, kind of like 15 what's this? And I showed him. And he said 16 that it wasn't a hazardous material. And, you 17 know, he said something about a MSDS. Saying 18 that if it was shipped with 1n larger 19 quantities, like a gallon or five gallons, 20 that it wasn't you know, it wasn't 21 considered a hazmat until it got to those 22 quantities. And that was about the extent of NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com**L__~~~~~~~~~-----------** ---------

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• 57
1 

### the conversation. I just gave him the letter 2 and he said he'd take care of it. And that 3 was prettymuch

-- you know, I went back to my 4 boss and told him what happened. And that was 5 

### the end of that. That's all I heard. 6 Q 

### Did you get your Pro-Poxy 400? 7 A 

### Yes, I did. Once I went back out 8 I think it was about a week later or so -- 9 my stuff was there. 10 Q 

### What size of tubes did you ship? 11 A 

### It was like a nine ounce tube. 12 Something like that. 13 Q 

### Is that the size of tube that you 14 received? 15 A 

### Yes. And it was several boxes so 16 there were several tubes. I think there was 17 like

-- maybe like a little over forty tubes 18 of Pro-Poxy. So I think there was like twelve 19 per box and we had like four

-- four boxes and 20 then like a partial box. Something like that. 21 MS. JONES: Your Honor, may I 22 approach?
NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 58 1 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. 2 Q I'm showing you what's been marked 3 as Complainant's Exhibit C-9 for 4 identification. Do you recognize the items in 5 that picture? 6 A Yes, I do. 7 Q Can you tell me what those items 8 are? 9 A It's the box of the Pro-Poxy, the 10 (indiscernible). And I'm assuming that this 11 box in here has got the maxi pack in there. 12 Q Were the items that you actually 13 recognize the Pro-Poxy? So those are the 14 boxes that you have been discussing? 15 A Yes. 16 Q When you received the Pro-Poxy, 17 did you pick up the shipment? 18 A Yes. 19 Q Do you know how it came in? 20 A Air. 21 Q And do you know by what carrier it 22 came in? NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 59 1 A I believe it was ACE. 2 Q And did TGI ship it? 3 A Yes. 4 Q Did you take a look at any of the 5 paperwork yourself? 6 A Well 1 I received the paperwork. 7 But I mean it was just kind of a glance. I 8 really didn 1t care about the paperwork. I 9 cared about the job so 10 Q But it came 1n via air? 11 A Right. 12 Q And you think it

-- well 1 it came 13 1n via ACE? 14 A Yes. 15 Q And that 1 s ACE Air Cargo? 16 A Correct. 17 Q Did you have any conversations 18 with other coworkers about the hazardous 19 nature of the Pro-Poxy 400? 20 A As far as what? 21 Q Just discussions about whether it 22 1s or isn 1t hazardous? NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 60 1 A 

### Not that I recall. 2 Q 

### So other than with Mr. Dexheimer 3 

### that's the main person? 4 A 

### Right. When we're shipping, 5 right. I mean after the fact, you know, when, 6 you know, this whole thing was going through, 7 it was like well, this is hazmat for sure. 8 Q 

### Okay. No further questions. 9 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. At this 10 

### point we're going to take a break. And I'm 11 

### going to instruct the witness not to discuss 12 

### your testimony with anybody prior to the 13 conclusionof thehearing andespecially since 14 respondent has not had a chance to cross 15 examine you. Okay? 16 A 

### Okay. 17 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: We're going to 18 

### come back at ten minutes of. And you'll 19 return to the bench and respondent will be 20 allowed to cross. We'll go off the record. 21 

### (Off record) 22 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: I'll remind the
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• 61 1 

### witness that you're still under oath. 2 Counselor? And what we'll do is I'm going to 3 ask counsel to keep an eye on the clock. And 4 when we get around noon and you get to a 5 logical breakingpoint, we'll break for lunch. 6 I've tried cases where the judge

-- the second 7 hand will hit the 12:00 and okay, we're off 8 the record. And walks out and you're halfway 9 through a sentence. So I don't do that. 10 MS. HOZUBIN: Thank you. 11 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: He was one of my 12 favorite judges. But let me tell you, at 13 12:00 o'clock, out the door. 14 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Go ahead, counsel. 15 

### CROSS EXAMINATION 16 

### BY MS. HOZUBIN: 17 Q 

### All right. Good morning, Mr. 18 Gaytan. 19 A 

### Good morning. 20 Q 

### In this particular instance, is it 21 fair to say that you assumed that the epoxy 22 was hazmat?
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• 62 1 A 

### Yes. 2 Q 

### Okay. And you didn't know for 3 certain, correct? 4 A 

### Well, like I said before, you 5 know, there's some words there that, you know, 6 you raise a red flag. 7 Q 

### But in this case there were no 8 warnings on the epoxy? Or did you look? 9 A 

### Well, I looked at the epoxy, but I 10 didn't see any. 11 Q 

### Okay. And did you see any on the 12 box? 13 A 

### No, I did not. 14 Q 

### Is it also fair to say once you 15 hand off the materials to Mr. Dexheimer that 16 

### there you're kind of out of the picture at 17 that point with respect to what's being 18 shipped? 19 A 

### That's correct. 20 Q 

### And are you aware of whether or 21 not TGI ships non-hazmat materials as well? 22 A 

### I'm pretty sure that they do. And NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 63
1 2 Q In this instance, was a tool

-- 3 A Yeah. The actual gun itself is 4 not a hazardous material. But like I said, 5 the ammunition 1s so -- 6 Q And other miscellaneous tools that 7 were in a toolbox as well? Those went along 8 with 9 A That's what was in the ram jet. 10 So yes. 11 Q Okay. 12 A They're parts of again so. 13 Q Now, prior to this in 2010, 14 Lockheed Martin had not trained you in hazmat 15 transportation, had they? 16 A Hazmat transportation? No. 17 Q Okay. And is it fair to say that 18 you, at that time in 2010, were not familiar 19 with the federal regulations that govern 20 hazmat transportation? 21 A No. 22 Q Okay. When you arrived 1n
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• 64 1 

### Ketchikan you didn't immediately need the 2 epoxy, 

### did you? 3 A No, 

### I did not. 4 Q 

### All right. So it wasn't a big 5 deal that it didn't arrive until slightly 6 later? 7 A 

### That's correct. 8 Q 

### And 1n this case you didn't look 9 at an MSDS regarding the epoxyprior to giving 10 

### it to Mr. Dexheimer, did you? 11 A 

### That's correct. 12 Q 

### What kind of vessel you 13 

### mentioned a boat brought you out to Misty 14 

### Island. 15 A 

### Uh-huh. (Affirmative) 16 Q 

### What kind of boat was it? 17 A 

### It was a landing craft. 18 Q 

### Okay. And who owned the landing 19 

### craft? 20 A 

### The company name was Island 21 

### Haulers. 22 Q 

### How big was that boat?
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• -------- --- -------------------------
65 1 A 

### That's a good question. Maybe 30, 2 40 feet. 3 Q 

### Do you know if any declarations 4 were made to that company regarding

-- well, 5 let me back up. Once the epoxy made it to 6 Ketchikan, where did it go from there? 7 A 

### It went onto the boat. 8 Q 

### Onto the boat? Okay. 9 A 

### Yes. 10 Q 

### And it was transported to Misty 11 

### Island? 12 A 

### Yes. 13 Q 

### All right. 14 A 

### Well, we had two boats. 15 Q 

### Two? 16 A 

### The initial, when we first went 17 out there for that site survey, was the 18 landing craft. We took two boats. The other 19 one was named the Crane. And so that's where 20 all our materials went. It was a bigger boat. 21 Q 

### Do you know if any declarations 22 weremade regardinghazardous materials on the
NEAL

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• 66
1 Crane? 2 A Yes. 3 Q They were? 4 A Yes. Well, we told them what we 5 had. And we had a hazardous materials locker 6 onboard. 7 Q Did you use all the epoxy on the 8 island? 9 A I believe so. 10 Q Okay. Did you bring any back? 11 A No, I did not. 12 Q I believe those are all the 13 questions I have for you. Thank you. 14 A Okay. 15 JUDGE GOODWIN: Any redirect? 16 MS. JONES: Yes. 17 JUDGE GOODWIN: You have to stay 18 up there. 19 A Oh. 20 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 21 BY MS. JONES: 22 Q Mr. Gaytan, you indicated that
NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 67 1 there were some words on the container of the 2 epoxy that tipped you off that it was hazmat. 3 Do you recollect what those words were? 4 A Well, just the epoxy and adhesive. 5 So those are the words that 6 MS. JONES: Thank you, Your Honor. 7 No further questions. 8 JUDGE GOODWIN: Again I'm going to 9 instruct you not to discuss your testimony 10 with anybody prior to the conclusion of the 11 hearing. You may step down. And counsel, 12 when a witness is excused by the court, I'll 13 leave it to you as to whether you want the 14 witness to remain or whether they can leave. 15 If there 16 MS. JONES: Oh. 17 JUDGE GOODWIN: If there's a -- I 18 mean this 1s
-- we're not living in a big 19 community here so if you excuse somebody and 20 subject to recall, I'll understand. So s1r, 21 you may step down. 22 A Okay. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 68
1 JUDGE GOODWIN: Counsel, call your 2 next witness. 3 MS. JONES: Robert Dexheimer. 4 JUDGE GOODWIN: Stand and ralse 5 your right hand. 6 (Oath administered) 7 MR. DEXHEIMER: I do. 8 ROBERT LYLE DEXHEIMER 9 called as a witness on behalf of the 10 complainant, testified as follows on: 11 DIRECT EXAMINATION 12 JUDGE GOODWIN: Please be seated. 13 State your full name for the record and spell 14 your first and last name. 15 A Robert LyleDexheimer, R-0-B-E-R-T 16 D-E-X-H-E-I- M-E-R. 17 JUDGE GOODWIN: Counsel? 18 BY MS. JONES: 19 Q Mr. Dexheimer, where do you work? 20 A I work in the FAA warehouse for 21 the FAA. 22 Q And how long have you worked for
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• 69 1 the FAA? 2 A Since May of 1988. 3 Q And what have you -- what did you 4 do before working for the Federal Aviation 5 Administration? 6 A Well, after high school I went to 7 college for one year. And then I joined the 8 was in the Air Force from 1967 to 1997. 9 Q And in the Air Force, what did you 10 do? 11 A I worked 1n logistics. 12 Q And did you do that the entire 13 time for the Air Force? 14 A Yes. 15 Q And 1n your work for the FAA, what 16 have you done? 17 A I'm a logistics management 18 specialist. Our mainjob out in the warehouse 19 is we receive, we warehouse, and we ship 20 project materials for the FAA and the 21 contractors that are assigned to the 22 warehouse. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 70 1 Q 

### So what contractors do you do 2 logistics for? 3 A 

### We ship for Parsons, Lockheed, and 4 Crown Consulting. 5 Q 

### And how does that work, shipping 6 for a contractor? 7 A 

### The contractors -- they'll bring 8 all theirmaterials that theywant shipped for 9 a specific site. They'll bring it, you know, 10 usually on a pallet down to our end of the

-- 11 

### the shipping end of the warehouse. We'll ask 12 

### do you have any hazmat to be shipped and it's 13 either yes or no. If they do have hazmat to 14 ship, it's separated. I take it over to-- I 15 or one of my coworkers

-- we take it over to 16 TGI Freight and inform them that we do have 17 hazmat to ship. And tell them who it's for, 18 where it's going. The rest of the freight, we 19 just palletize and get it all ready for either 20 air shipment or surface shipment and take it 21 

### to the whichever carrier the contractors 22 wanted to go on. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 71
1 Q Do you typically use TGI Freight 2 for things other than hazmat? 3 A No. 4 Q Why not? 5 A Because I can ship that myself. 6 There'snothing special about shippingregular 7 freight. It's just you get it all-- you label 8 it all and you take it to the air carrier and 9 tell them where you -- you know, where you 10 want it to go and when it has to be there. 11 Q So why is it that the FAA uses TGI 12 Freight for hazmat shipments? 13 A Because we don't ship enough 14 hazmat to stay proficient in doing the 15 packaging and the paperwork. 16 Q So yourself do you have 17 training in shipment of hazardous materials? 18 A Yes, I do. 19 MS. JONES: Counsel, I'm going to 20 refer to C-29. Your Honor, may I approach? 21 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. 22 Q Mr. Dexheimer, I am showing you NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 72
1 

### what's been marked for identification 2 Complainant's Exhibit C-29. Can you tell me 3 what that is? 4 A 

### Well, it's a learning

-- it's my 5 training history from the time I basically 6 

### came onboard the FAA 

### until 2011. Yeah. This 7 is all my training. It has hazmat. It also 8 has FAA 

### training on here. 9 Q 

### Can you point out in that training 10 history the applicable hazardous materials 11 training that you have had? 12 A 

### Yes. Okay. Now, see I 

### had 13 hazardous material shipping in 1993. I had 14 hazardous waste and emergency response 1n 15 

### 1998. I had hazardous material shipping in 16 

### 2000. I've had hazardous materials 17 regulations, enforcement, and safety in 1990. 18 Hazardous materials transportation in 2004. 19 A hazardous material refresher in 2007. And 20 then I had a EOSH awareness training in 2007. 21 And then in

-- I have a certificate back at 22 work. I just finished hazmat training in June NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 73 1 

### of 2011. 2 Q 

### And what training was that you 3 just finished in 2011? 4 A 

### That

-- the hazmat transportation 5 training. 6 Q 

### And how long of a course was that? 7 A 

### Oh. I didn't look at that. I 8 

### didn't look at my certificate as to how many 9 

### how long. It covered CFR49 and IATA 10 regulations. 11 Q 

### And while you were in the 12 military, didyouhave anyhazardous materials 13 training? 14 A 

### No. 15 Q 

### None then? So just in within 16 the FAA? Your position in the FAA? 17 A Just with-- yes. 18 

### MS. JONES: Your Honor, the FAA 19 asks that Complainant's Exhibit C-29 be 20 admitted. 21 JUDGE GOODWIN: Counsel? 22 

### MS. HOZUBIN: I think I would only
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• 74
1 

### have to object on relevance. 2 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Overruled. 3 Complainant's 29 for application is received 4 ln evidence as proposed 29. 5 

### (Complainant's exhibit C-29 6 admitted) 7 Q 

### Mr. Dexheimer, when

-- were you 8 involved with a shipment concerning a weather 9 camera mobilization for the Misty Fiords 10 project? 11 A 

### Yes, I was. 12 Q 

### What was your involvement ln that 13 project? 14 A Well, it was my responsibility to, 15 you know, ship the material to Ketchikan to 16 make sure that it made it down there when the 17 crew was going down to do the project. 18 Q 

### Do you recall whether or not any 19 hazmat got shipped for that project? 20 A 

### Yes, it did. 21 Q 

### What happened with the hazmat 22 

### materials being shipped on that project?
NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 75 1 A The hazmat that we knew for sure, 2 we set that

-- that was basically set aside. 3 The Pro-Poxy was a kind of a question. So 4 with the

-- you know, with the word epoxy, we 5 said we'll take it over to TGI Freight for 6 shipping. Because I did not know if it was 7 hazardous or not. 8 Q So you're saying the word epoxy 9 caused you to question the 10 A It did, yes. Because most 11 epox1es, you know, they're two part. Some
-- 12 most epoxies, you know, you have one part that 13 is hazardous, another part that isn't. So-- 14 now, when in doubt, take it to the experts. 15 Q So what did you do? 16 A I took

-- we loaded

-- I loaded 17 the stuff, all the material in the back of our 18 truck. Drove it over to TGI Freight. Gave it 19 to the

-- to Jeff in the warehouse and says I 20 have this hazmat to ship to Ketchikan for 21 Parsons. And it's going

-- I tell him the 22 carrier. It's going on Alaska Airlines.
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• 76
1 

### Because that way they will do all of the 2 paperwork and do the shipping for us. 3 Q 

### And what did Jeff say to you? 4 A 

### Well, yeah. He's got -- they've 5 got a form that he

-- that we fill out. You 6 

### know, who it's from, where it's going, what it 7 

### is. And this one here just had, you know, 8 basically miscellaneous hazmat. And I signed 9 that. Signed the bottom of it. And he said 10 we'll take care of it. And that's-- then my 11 

### job was done. 12 Q 

### And do you know what happened with 13 that shipment? 14 A 

### No, I don 1

### t. Well 1 

### I didn 1

### t know 15 until after the fact. 16 Q 

### And what happened after the fact 17 then? 18 A 

### After the fact 1 

### Jose Gaytan came 19 down with a letter. He says I got this letter 20 stating that they were being

-- you know, they 21 had gotten a letter

-- their headquarters had 22 gotten a letter stating that they would

-- NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 77 1 they shipped

-- tried to ship hazmat material 2 without declaring it. So we took he didn't 3 know where TGI Freight was or who to talk with 4 over there, so I took him over to TGI Freight. 5 And again we, you know, talked to Jeff. And 6 then Jeff-- I don't know if he called Todd or 7
-- we went up -- all went up and talked to 8 Todd. 9 Q When you say Jeff, you're speaking 10 of Jeff 11 A In the warehouse. 12 Q TGI Freight's warehouse? 13 A TGI Freight's Jeff. I don't know 14 his last name. 15 Q Okay. TGI Freight's Jeff. Okay. 16 A Yes. 17 Q Okay. 18 A The cheese head. 19 Q Okay. All right. And so you took 20 Jose Gaytan over to TGI Freight to find out 21 what had happened with this undeclared 22 shipment.
NEAL

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• 78 1 A 

### Uh-huh. Yes. 2 Q 

### And what happened when you went 3 over to TGI Freight? 4 

### MS. HOZUBIN: Asked and answered, 5 

### Your Honor. 6 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Overruled. 7 A I 

### wasn't paying that much 8 

### attention to the conversations. I just took 9 

### him over. He showed him the Todd the 10 

### letter. And that's all I remember is Todd 11 

### said well, it's --you know, we'll take care 12 

### of it. And that's all. I wasn't pay1ng 13 

### attention to the

-- because I was -- basically 14 

### I thought I was out of the loop. 15 Q 

### Okay. Mr. Dexheimer, you 16 

### indicated you had a chance to look at the tube 17 

### of Pro-Poxy 400 

### and the label on it. 18 A 

### Yes. 19 

### MS. JONES: Your Honor, may I 20 approach? 21 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. 22 

### MS. JONES: Counsel, I'm going to NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 79 1 show him Exhibit C-14 for identification. 2 Q And take a look at these and see 3 if you recognize those photos. 4 A Yes. These were on the pro -- on 5 the box. The Pro-Poxy boxes. 6 Q So looking at Exhibit C-14, page 7 one, were there any words on that that 8 label or any of the other labels that tipped 9 you off that this product, Pro-Poxy 400, might 10 have been hazardous? 11 A Yeah. The word epoxy. 12 Q Were there any other words that 13 tipped you off? Or was 14 A Not on the

-- not on this first 15 one -- first exhibit. 16 Q Okay. 17 MS. JONES: Your Honor, 18 complainant asks that Exhibit C-14, page one, 19 be admitted. 20 MS. HOZUBIN: No objection to page 21 one, Your Honor. 22 JUDGE GOODWIN: Are you going to NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 80 1 admit those as individual exhibits

-- pages 2 one through four? It doesn 1t make any 3 difference to me. I just want to chart it. 4 MS. JONES: Yes. 5 JUDGE GOODWIN: So you 1re going to 6 do it? Okay. So complainant 1 S Exhibit 14 1 7 page one of four 1 is admitted. 8 (Complainant 1 s exhibit C-14 9 admitted) 10 MS. JONES: Your Honor/ I don 1t 11 think the FAA has any further questions of Mr. 12 Dexheimer at this time. 13 JUDGE GOODWIN: Cross? 14 CROSS EXAMINATION 15 BY MS. HOZUBIN: 16 Q Good morning/ Mr. Dexheimer. 17 A Good morning. 18 Q I believe your testimony was 19 earlier that the contractors bring you the 20 equipment theywant shipped and the iterns they 21 want shipped. You ask the question whether 22 it 1 S hazmat and you 1 re expecting a yes or no NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 81 1 

### answer. And then you do your job from there, 2 correct? 3 A 

### That's correct. 4 Q 

### All right. So it's not for you to 5 make the determinationonwhether something is 6 hazardous or not. You rely on the contractors 7 to do that, correct? 8 A 

### In the most cases, yes. Because 9 they do know what's hazmat and what isn't. 10 Q 

### Was there a camera shipped at that 11 

### time? Do you recall? 12 

### A I don't recall. 13 Q 

### Do you recall anything else that 14 was shipped during that time, other than the 15 epoxy that we've been talking about? 16 A 

### No. That's been two years ago. 17 Q 

### All right. 18 A 

### I don't know. 19 Q 

### Fair to say you had to refresh 20 your recollection before you came here to 21 

### testify? All right. Is it also fair to say 22 that you don't have a specific recollection of
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• 82 1 actually speaking with Todd Clark that day 2 that you went to TGI Freight with Mr. Gaytan? 3 A I don't recall speaking to him, 4 no. 5 Q Okay. And you don't know whether 6 a phone call was made to him or whether he was 7 actually there; is that correct? 8 A Yeah. I don't know. 9 Q Okay. And in this particular 10 instance, was it Mr. Gaytan who told you that 11 the Pro-Poxy might have been hazmat and 12 therefore it should be shipped with TGI? 13 A Yes. 14 Q Okay. Thank you. Those are all 15 the questions I have. 16 JUDGE GOODWIN: Any redirect? 17 MS. JONES: Yes, Your Honor. I 18 do. 19 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 20 BY MS. JONES: 21 Q You indicated 1n your testimony 22 that 1n most cases you rely on what the
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• 83 1 contractor indicates. In this case, when Mr. 2 Gaytan brought the products down, do you 3 remember what he said to you? 4 A Well, he asked do you think this 5 is

-- this could be hazmat. And we looked. 6 And we saw, okay, epoxy. When in doubt, we' 11 7 take it --you know, we'll just defer to the 8 safe side and assume that it is hazmat, which 9 we do a lot. We assume things are hazmat and 10 take them over if we don't know for sure and 11 we don't have the MSDS. 12 Q So did you make some 13 determinations yourself? 14 A Yes. When I saw epoxy, okay, 15 we'll take it over just to be safe. 16 Q So you, yourself made an 17 evaluation. 18 A Yes. Because he didn't Mr. 19 Gaytan didn't know for sure. So me, as the 20 shipper helping him, assisting him with 21 shipping, I made the determination we'll take 22 it over to TGI Freight and they can -- you NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 84 1 

### know 1 

### we 1 

### ll be safe that way versus us 2 shipping it and getting into trouble. 3 Q 

### Okay. Thank you 1 

### Mr. Dexheimer. 4 

### MS. JONES: No further questions/ 5 Your Honor. 6 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: 

### Sir 1 

### I 1

### m going to 7 

### instruct you not to discuss your testimony 8 

### with anybody prior to the conclusion of the 9 

### hearing. It 1 

### s up to counsels whether you can 10 

### remain in the area or not. Counsel/ call your 11 

### next witness. 12 

### MS. JONES: The FAA calls Mr. 13 

### Deitz. 14 

### (Oath administered) 15 

### MR. DEITZ: I 

### do. 16 

### JEFFREY DEITZ 17 called as a witness on behalf of the 18 complainant/ testified as follows on: 19 DIRECT EXAMINATION 20 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Please be seated. 21 

### Spell your first and last name for the record. 22 A 

### Jeffrey Deitz 1 

### J-E-F-F-R-E-Y NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 85 1 

### D-E-I-T-Z. 2 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Counsel? 3 

### BY MS. JONES: 4 Q 

### Mr. Deitz, what is your current 5 position? 6 A 

### I am 1n the employed in the 7 hazardous materials branch of the FAA, the 8 security and hazardous materials division, as 9 a special agent in hazardous materials 10 

### specialist. 11 Q 

### And how long have you been 12 

### employed by the FAA in that capacity? 13 A 

### January '97. 14 Q 

### And what did you do before being a 15 

### hazardous materials agent for the FAA? 16 A I 

### excuse me I worked for 17 

### airline support directly before the FAA, as 18 

### doing the all the cargo and hazardous 19 

### materials paperwork and customs. So for the 20 all Russian carriers that were coming through 21 

### at that time. And then before that I was with 22 

### MarkAir and Mark Air Express, where I started
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• 86 1 

### out as a cargo acceptance agent. And had the 2 

### hazmat training there. And then went on to 3 

### train be an instructor for hazardous 4 materials and security. 5 Q 

### When did you begin working for 6 Mark Air? 7 A 

### 1990. 8 Q 

### And through what year with Mark 9 Air? 10 A 

### It had been oh, I think it was 11 

### right at the beginning of '96. 12 Q 

### And you indicated you did training 13 for Mark Air. 14 A 

### Yes. 15 Q 

### And that training was in

-- as a 16 hazardous materials 17 A 

### Correct. 18 Q 

### And prior to that? 19 A 

### I was in the Army. 20 Q 

### So are you currently certified in 21 

### hazardous materials? Your own personal 22 

### certifications and training? Could you NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 87 1 

### discuss those? 2 A 

### Well, am I trained? Yes. 3 Q 

### Yes. 4 A 

### Do I have something that says you 5 

### are 11

### certified 11

### ? I have several, you know, 6 diplomas, certificates of completion. There 7 is no 11

### certification 11 

### that means something 8 a little something difference to us, like an 9 IATA or ICAO certification they have like for 10 cargo agents and things 1ike. Although I have 11 

### been to that course. So with the FAA, we went 12 

### to -- in '97, a three-week course. A basic 13 

### course in hazardous materials. And then 14 several times throughout each year we would 15 have what

-- for recurrent training would be 16 what they have in individual or interactive 17 video telecommunication thing that in this 18 building we have it set up. And with Oklahoma 19 

### City they would teach they would have 20 instructors there teaching the classes. Most 21 

### of it was changes, different things. You 22 

### know, what's new and things like that.
NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 88 1 MS. JONES: Counsel, I'm going to 2 show Mr. Deitz C-30, Your Honor, may I 3 approach? 4 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. 5 Q I'm showing you what's been marked 6 for identification Complainant's Exhibit C-30. 7 Can you tell me what that is? 8 A It looks like a printout of all 9 the different courses, some hazmat, some not, 10 that we've taken with the FAA
-- or I have 11 taken with the FAA. 12 Q Would you identify in that 13 training history

-- learninghistory of

-- for 14 yourself, which of those are considered 15 hazardous materials training that you have 16 had? 17 A I don't think you wanted to g1ve 18 me these yet. It looks like it's going

-- 19 Q You might look to the back and 20 maybe go forward. 21 A Well, yeah. It goes backwards, 22 forwards because it's oldest to the newest. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 89 1 The first one was again 6/5/97, which is the 2 air transportation of dangerous goods. Then 3 the next one up would have been 1n '97, with 4 the 12/4, which would have been one of the 5 IVTs (ph) for transportation of dangerous 6 goods. Then in '98 there was another one. IVT 7
-- there are two listed there, 9/2 and 12/2. 8 Oh, actually then in '99, 3/10 and 6/9/99. 9 9/15/99, 3/15/2000, 6/14/2000, 2/7/2001, 10 8/24/2001, 3/26/2002, 1/29/2003, 12/17/2003, 11 8/12/2004, 3/31/2005, 1/6/2006, 8/30/2006. 12 That one's listed twice

-- interesting. Well, 13 and they put one in they shouldn't have. 14 Okay. 4/5/2007. 15 Q And these dates that you're 16 articulating, these are all for 17 A The individual or interactive 18 video training. 19 Q In
-- 20 A Transportationof dangerous goods. 21 Q Currently, are you -- do you still 22 attend the var1ous training in the
NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 90 1 

### transportation of dangerous goods? 2 A 

### Yes. 3 Q 

### And what type of training do you 4 attend nowadays? 5 A 

### Are you say1ng that myself as a 6 participant or as a guest at quality assurance 7 type or what? I'm not sure of the question. 8 Q 

### Whatever type of training that 9 you're affiliated with in that area. Do you 10 

### go as a participant? 11 

### A Well, the last one I went to was 12 

### actually last week. I went to one of Mr. 13 

### Peters' classes. We'll go there and sit and 14 

### listen and answer questions. I've been to Mr. 15 

### Smith-- Mark Smith's classes at Northern Air 16 

### sometimes. Go to Alaska Airlines for their 17 

### cargo people, when they have the class up 18 

### here. So we go to the classes there. I've 19 

### been to some EMI (ph) classes. And depending 20 upon the class, you know, what it 1s we do, 21 

### how much time we are given. 22 Q 

### So your participation in these
NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 91 1 classes consists of what? 2 A Well, if it's a recurrent class 3 and the people are already supposed to be 4 trained, we normally talk about either some 5 current trends, new things that are coming up, 6 which are a lot of the changes

-- like this 7 year a lot of changes to the rules for the 8 definitions of what is

-- what can be shipped 9 as a consumer commodity, like an ORM-D, which 10 are go1ng away. For an initial class, 11 definitelypass aroundpictures. We talk about 12 past instances. Of FAA's role, you know, and 13
-- you know, how we interact with them as 14 either a1r carriers or shippers. 15 Q So you currently are attending 16 classes that other people are putting on, as 17 a presenter? 18 A Yes. But I am not attending the 19 class as an attendee. More as a guest. 20 Sometimes as a guest speaker or we stop in and 21 check different things for, you know, quality 22 assurance and things like that. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 92 1 Q Andmakingpresentationsyourself? 2 A Not always. Normally, yes. 3 Q And how often do you attend 4 presentation of or attend courses where 5 you're making presentations on behalf of the 6 FAA? 7 A Quarterly. And it's not really-- 8 I guess you could say because of my position 9 I'm representing the FAA. But it's not a 10 formal request to the FAA where I'm sent there 11 to do a presentation. Most of it is the 12 different instructors in the industry will 13 invite me to come in on one of the days that 14 they're teaching the class. Whatever fits my 15 schedule and depending upon if I'm behind or 16 ahead of what they've got going on. They may 17 give me enough-- you know, a certain amount 18 of time. There's generally more time in an 19 initial class than on a recurring class. 20 Q So have you attended classes that 21 Mr. Peters has put on? 22 A Yes.
NEAL

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• 93 1 Q 

### Do
-- as part of your job duties, 2 do you conduct investigations? 3 A 

### Yes. 4 Q 

### Did you have cause to investigate 5 an incident concerning an undeclared shipment 6 of Pro-Poxy that has been discussed in this 7 case? 8 A 

### Yes. 9 Q 

### And how did that come to your 10 

### attention? 11 

### A I was notified by Alaska Airlines 12 

### that they had undeclared hazardous materials. 13 Q 

### And how were you notified by 14 

### Alaska Airlines? 15 A 

### Generally v1a email. They will 16 

### list 17 Q 

### And

-- 18 A 

### They will say, hey, this is what 19 

### we have. And they'll list the commodity. 20 They'll list who the shipper was, who the 21 

### cons1gnee was, based upon their paperwork. 22 Q 

### And that's generally how in your NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 94 1 duties you're informed by Alaska Airlines of 2 a violation? 3 A Correct. 4 Q Did you receive such an email 1n 5 this particular case? 6 A I believe so, yes. I didn't look 7 at that portion of the file. 8 MS. JONES: Your Honor, may I 9 approach? 10 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. 11 MS. JONES: C-1. 12 MS. HOZUBIN: Thank you. 13 Q Mr. Deitz, I'm showing you what's 14 been marked C-1. 15 A Yes. 16 MS. JONES: Before we get there, I 17 ask that complainant's Exhibit C-30 be 18 admitted. 19 MS. HOZUBIN: No objection, Your 20 Honor. 21 JUDGE GOODWIN: Complainant's 22 I'm sorry. What was the number? Oh. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 95 1 A C-1. 2 MS. JONES: That's Mr. Deitz' 3 training history. 4 A Oh, no. The training history is 5 C-30. 6 JUDGE GOODWIN: 

## c you said 7 C-30, right? 8 A That was C-30. 9 MS. JONES: C-30. C-30. 10 JUDGE GOODWIN: Complainant's 11 MS. JONES: Marked for ID C-30 be 12 admitted. 13 JUDGE GOODWIN: C-30 for 14 identification is received into evidence as 15 C-30. 16 (Complainant's exhibit C-30 17 admitted) 18 JUDGE GOODWIN: And I thought you 19 were referring to an email. 20 MS. JONES: Yeah. I
-- 21 A Oh, the email she has labeled as 22 C-1. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 96 1 MS. JONES: C-1 is what we will be 2 talking about. 3 JUDGE GOODWIN: I'm sorry? 4 MS. JONES: C-1 will

-- we will 5 talk about that one. 6 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 7 MS. JONES: I didn't want to 8 forget. 9 MS. JONES: So with respect to 10 C-30, Your Honor, I didn't --wasn't sure. I 11 think 12 JUDGE GOODWIN: C-30 was admitted. 13 MS. JONES: Okay. 14 Q Okay. Mr. Deitz, do you recognize 15 Complainant's Exhibit C-1 that's been marked 16 for identification? 17 A Yes. 18 Q And what is that, sir? 19 A It's an email to my coworker, Gary 20 Meters (ph), and myself from Alaska Airlines. 21 Q Is this the email that you have 22 been discussing?
NEAL

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• 97 1 A 

### Yes. 2 Q 

### And what does that email

-- what 3 did that email tell you? 4 A 

### It says that there is undeclared 5 hazmat, the airway bill number, the shipper, 6 which they list as Parsons. And it says that 7 

### -- underneath what the commodity is four 8 boxes of Unitex Pro-Poxy 400 

### and it's in four 9 cardboard boxes. And then it tells me where 10 

### it staged so that when I go to Alaska Airlines 11 

### to look at it, I know where it is

-- and so 12 

### does their lead. 13 Q 

### And so this 1s the email you 14 

### received from Alaska Airlines that you just 15 

### discussed? 16 A 

### Yes. 17 Q 

### And what did you do when you 18 

### received this email? 19 A 

### With this

-- when I get the email, 20 then I know that I'm going to go to Alaska 21 

### Airlines. I don't remember in this case if I 22 

### did it before or after. But knowing the
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• 98 1 

### commodity

-- if I know the exact commodity, I 2 will try and get a material safety data sheet 3 before I go. Because before I open a case I 4 try and determine if something 1s or is not 5 

### and what it is. Then I go out to Alaska 6 Airlines. And I generally go into the office 7 

### and one of the people

-- the cargo leads

-- 8 will be able to give me obviously the 9 screening records, if they have

-- still have 10 them, the copy of the airwaybill, things like 11 that. And then the note tells us where it is. 12 

### That it's here staged in the outbound area. 13 And then

-- so we go over there and look at it 14 and I take photographs. 15 Q 

### Okay. 16 A 

### So
-- 17 

### MS. JONES: So, Your Honor, I ask 18 that Complainant's Exhibit C-1 that's been 19 marked for identification be admitted. 20 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Counsel? 21 

### MS. HOZUBIN: We object as to 22 hearsay and foundation. Mr. Deitz is not the
NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 99 1 author of this document. 2 JUDGE GOODWIN: Overruled. 3 Complainant's 1 for identificationisreceived 4 into evidence as Complainant's 1. 5 (Complainant's exhibit C-1 6 admitted) 7 Q Mr. Deitz, you indicated that you 8 will note sometimes that you -- if you know 9 the material that upon receiving these 10 emails, that you will pull an MSDS. Did you 11 pull the MSDS at this time? 12 A Well, that's why I said I
-- on 13 this particular case, I know I pulled the 14 MSDS. I pulled it several times. But whether 15 or not I pulled it before I went out and had 16 it on the way out there or pulled it as soon 17 as I got back to the office, after I had 18 pictures to verify that that's what it was, I 19 currently don't remember that. 20 Q But you did in fact pull the MSDS 21 on this 22 A Yes. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 100 1 Q material? Okay. 2 MS. JONES: Your Honor, may I 3 approach? 4 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. 5 MS. JONES: And this lS C-9, 10, 6 11, 12, 13. 7 MS. HOZUBIN: C-9 through 13? 8 MS. JONES: 9 through 13. And 15. 9 But I have to get 14. 10 Q If you could take a look at those, 11 Mr. Deitz. 12 A Uh-huh. (Affirmative) 13 Q Do you recognize those photos? 14 A Yes. 15 Q Can you tell me what they are? 16 Tell us what they are? 17 A They're photos of the

-- the first 18 one is of the entire shipment on the pallet 19 the four boxes of epoxy. And then the

-- 20 JUDGE GOODWIN: Which picture are 21 you referring to, sir? 22 Q Yeah. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 101 1 A Oh. That would be the first one 2 one of one, C-9. 3 Q C-9. 4 A I'm sorry. 5 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yeah. When you 6 refer to the picture, refer to 7 A Well, with this 8 JUDGE GOODWIN: -- the exhibit 9 number. 10 A Okay. 11 JUDGE GOODWIN: Because remember. 12 We're doing a transcript. 13 A Okay. 14 JUDGE GOODWIN: I can see you. 15 But if somebody 16 A Oh. 17 JUDGE GOODWIN:
-- wants to later 18 read the transcript, it's like what are you 19 talking about. 20 A All right. C-9 is a picture of a 21 at the Alaska Airlines warehouse of 22 everything that was on the pallet that was the
NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 102
1 shipment. Separate air bills and stuff. But 2 that was everything being shipped. The four 3 white boxes on that one are the Pro-Poxy. 4 Q I see. And did you take this 5 photo? 6 A I took that photo. 7 Q Okay. So on this photo, the four 8 white boxes are the Pro-Poxy? 9 A Correct. 10 Q And the other two -- 11 A Was like the Cadweld shot and some 12 of the other stuff which 13 Q Part of the part of the 14 shipment. 15 A They were just part of the 16 shipment, so they were there together. 17 Q Okay. All right. And C-10 18 A And C-10 is the top of the four 19 boxes. 20 Q And this top of the four boxes of 21 22 A Pro-Poxy. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 103 1 Q -- the Pro-Poxy. 2 A Yes. 3 Q And again you took that photo? 4 A Yes, ma'am. 5 Q And C-11? 6 A And C-11 is a close-up of the 7 Ketchikan freight tag with the waybill that 8 Alaska Airlines put on, as well as the to and 9 from addresses there. 10 Q And the waybill references which 11 waybill number? 12 A The 33719873. 13 Q Okay. And

-- and it refers to who 14 shipped it? 15 A The way -- the tag? 16 Q Yes. 17 A No. You would have to go to the 18 waybill. That number and that information 19 would be on the waybill. 20 Q Okay. And C-12? 21 A And that's one of the boxes of 22 epoxy open, showing the tubes of the Pro-Poxy NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISlANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 104
1 inside. 2 Q And aga1n you took this photo? 3 A Correct. 4 MS. JONES: And complainant asks 5 that Exhibit C-9, C-10, C-11, and C-12 be 6 admitted. 7 MS. HOZUBIN: No objection, Your 8 Honor. 9 JUDGE GOODWIN: Complainant's 9 10 for identification is received into evidence 11 as Complainant's 9. 12 (Complainant's exhibit C-9 13 admitted) 14 JUDGE GOODWIN: Complainant's 10 15 for identification is received into evidence 16 as Complainant's 10. 17 (Complainant's exhibit C-10 18 admitted) 19 JUDGE GOODWIN: And complainant's 20 11 is received into evidence as Complainant's 21 11. 22 (Complainant's exhibit C-11 NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 105 1 

### admitted) 2 

### MS. HOZUBIN: Your Honor, to 3 clarify, did we get through C-11 or C-12? 4 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Did she ask for 5 

### C-12? 6 

### MS. JONES: Yes. 7 A 

### Yes. 8 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 9 

### Complainant's 12 for identification is 10 received into evidence as Complainant's 12. 11 

### (Complainant's exhibit C-12 12 admitted) 13 

### MS. JONES: May I approach? C-19. 14 Q 

### Mr. Deitz. 15 A 

### Yes. 16 Q 

### Can you please identify C-19 17 that'sbeenmarkedfor identification, please? 18 A 

### It 1s a materials safety data 19 sheet for the Pro-Poxy 400. 20 Q 

### And 1s that the material safety 21 data sheet that you have been discussing, that 22 

### you pulled when you looked up the Pro-Poxy NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 106 1 

### 400? 2 A 

### It's at least a copy of it, if not 3 of it. 4 Q 

### And when you pulled the materials 5 safety data sheet, can you tell me what you 6 did to obtain that? 7 A 

### At the computer I just went to the 8 Google search. I typed in Pro-Poxy 400 MSDS. 9 It searched and then of course the listing 10 comes up. And the first one there was the 11 MSDS. Click on it and it's there. 12 Q 

### And what site did you pull it 13 from? 14 A 

### Well, it's just-- I mean the MSDS 15 was what it was. I mean sometimes you have to 16 go to a manufacturer's site and, you know, go 17 through a list of things, which is one thing 18 I did this morning going through. Unilever 19 I had to go to a Unilever site. Then go to 20 Unilever MSDSs. Then look up every product, 21 you know, that they have listed there. This 22 

### particular one, under Google when you type NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 107 1 

### that 1n it pops right up and it's the very 2 first thing. And you just hit it and-- it's 3 not a site. It's just the MSDS. 4 Q 

### So you went and pulled up -- 5 A 

### So I -- 6 Q 

### Googled 7 A 

### I Googled the Pro-Poxy 400 8 

### MSDS. 9 Q 

### And this is the one you got 10 

### that pulled up? That you pulled up? This is 11 

### the MSDS you pulled up for this case? 12 

### A Or one like it, yes. 13 Q 

### Is this the one 14 A 

### I mean this looks like a copy. I 15 

### believe I printed mine out in color

-- the 16 

### originals for the case. But it looks like the 17 

### same MSDS. 18 Q 

### So would this be a fair and 19 

### accurate copy of the one you pulled up then? 20 A 

### Yes. 21 Q 

### Okay. Thank you. From this MSDS, 22 what did you learn about the Pro-Poxy 400? NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 108 1 A 

### That it is regulated. They 2 under two spots that we generally

-- well, we 3 look at actually three spots. Main

-- three 4 ma1n spots. One is the composition, which in 5 this one is section three, for the types of 6 materials that are involved-- the chemicals. 7 And then in this particular one, section five, 8 the firefighting, where it talks about the 9 

### flashpoint. Where part A is rate -- is a 10 

### hazmat, as far as flammable, and the part B is 11 

### not. And then section 14, 

### which will be the 12 

### transportation information. And generally if 13 

### something is not regulated, it is there. It 14 

### will say not regulated per DOT there. And I 15 

### remember I called the number on the front of 16 

### the MSDS here to,__ because I had a question. 17 

### At 65 degrees flashpoint, you would think it 18 

### would be a packing group two. And I called 19 

### them because they have it listed here as a 20 packing group three. And in 173
-- 

### I don't 21 

### have the exact paragraph of where packing 22 groups are assigned, there is a section in NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISlANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 109 1 there that says packing group two materials, 2 if they're in small amounts and the viscosity 3 is such

-- you know, meet a whole lot of 4 criteria, then they can ship it as a packing 5 group three, which is what the manufacturer 6 said they do

-- and why they put it there as 7 a three on the MSDS. 8 Q So you indicated you looked to the 9 this MSDS and you noted 1n three

-- you 10 checked three areas. And the first one you 11 talked about was three, the composition 12 information. And you noted that there is two 13 components. 14 A Uh-huh. (Affirmative) 15 Q And one was of concern. Which 16 component was it that was of concern? 17 A MSDS part A is the flammable. 18 Q Part A was flammable? 19 A Yes. 20 Q And then you checked part five, 21 which 1s the firefighting measure section. 22 And you were looking at the flashpoint. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 110
1 A 

### Correct. 2 Q 

### And again you looked at the

-- it 3 has two parts. And you were checking the part 4 here

-- it was part A again

-- that was of 5 concern. 6 A 

### Yes. Part A is listed as -- with 7 its flashpoint, which 1s low enough to be 8 rated as a flammable. 9 Q 

### And that being the 65 degrees 10 

### Fahrenheit? 11 A 

### Correct. 12 Q 

### And then you indicated you also 13 

### checked section 14. 14 A 

### Correct. 15 Q 

### The transportation information. 16 

### And inthe transportation information, areyou 17 

### saying that it describes how it's supposed to 18 

### be shipped? 19 A 

### Well, it's the infor well, 20 sometimes they

-- they'll list it as this is 21 

### how you ship it. But if you look at the 22 

### section here, in the center it says hazard NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 111 1 class three, flammable liquid. Then it gives 2 the proper shipping description, which is 3 adhesive three, UN1133, packing group three. 4 And that is a proper shipping description. 5 Q Okay. Should the Pro-Poxy 400 6 have a label? Some sort of a flammability 7 label? 8 A Well, yeah. 9 Q Uh-huh. 10 A I mean if you're shipping 11 something that's a class three, you must have 12 a class three label on there for air. 13 Q And that's noted here in this 14 transportation section itself, 1n the MSDS. 15 A No. Sometimes it sometimes 16 they'll say label required and they'll list 17 what it 1s. 18 Q So in this particular 19 transportation information section in this 20 MSDS, does it indicate anything about the 21 flammable label here? 22 A No. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 112 1 Q 

### Okay. All right. 2 

### MS. JONES: Your Honor, I ask that 3 complainant's Exhibit C-19 for identification 4 be admitted into evidence. 5 

### MS. HOZUBIN: No objection. 6 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Complainant's 19 7 for identification is received into evidence 8 as complainant's 19. 9 

### (Complainant's exhibit C-19 10 admitted) 11 Q 

### After you -- oh, maybe. It's 12. 12 MS. HOZUBIN: Is this a good 13 breaking point for you? 14 

### MS. JONES: I was just thinking 15 about that. Your Honor, it's 12:02. 16 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Well, if 17 you're at a good breaking point we'll break. 18 If not 19 MS. JONES: It's probably as good 20 as any. 21 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Then we'll 22 

### break for lunch. I instruct the witness to NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 113 1 not discuss your testimony with anybody prior 2 to the conclusion of the hearing. 3 A Okay. 4 JUDGE GOODWIN: We'll go off the 5 record. Let's reconvene at 1:30. We're off 6 the record. 7 (Off record) 8 JUDGE GOODWIN: We'll go back on 9 the record. I'll advise the witness you're 10 still under oath. 11 A Yes, s1r. 12 Q Mr. Deitz, as part of your 13 certificate

-- investigation, did you receive 14 from Alaska Airlines the airway bill that you 15 discussed in the photograph? 16 A Yes. 17 MS. JONES: Okay. Counsel, I'm 18 going to be showing Mr. Deitz complainant's 19 exhibits marked C-2 and C-3 for 20 identification. Your Honor, may I approach? 21 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sure. 22 Q Mr. Deitz, I'm handing you NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 114 1 

### Exhibits C-2 and C-3 that are marked for 2 identification. 3 A 

### Uh-huh. (Affirmative) 4 Q Do 

### you recognize those two 5 exhibits? Take a look, please. 6 A Yes. 7 Q 

### Could you take a look at C-2? And 8 9 A 

### What was that one? 10 Q 

### tell the court what you 11 

### what Exhibit C- 2 lS, 

### please. 12 A C-2 1s what the Alaska Airlines 13 calls a source document. Or it's kind of a 14 worksheet that's filled out at the door and is 15 taken in. And then where the hazmat

-- or the 16 

### freight is described, dimensionalized, 17 weighed, and then signed here. But they take 18 all the pertinent information, which is then 19
-- when the person that drops off the freight 20 goes 1n, they enter it into the computer 21 system. And then C-3 here is a copy of the 22 a1rway bill as it is printed out of the NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 115 1 computer, which 1s what they keep on file. 2 Q Okay. Looking at C-2, who is the 3 shipper on this airway bill? 4 A It says Parsons infrastructure up 5 there. 6 Q And what lS the nature and 7 quantity of goods that 1s shipped? 8 A Six cartons miscellaneous, 9 non-hazardous tools and constructionmaterial. 10 Q Do you recogn1ze who signed this 11 document? 12 A No. I do not. 13 Q Does it indicate whether or not 14 there are anyhazardous goods containedwithin 15 the shipment? 16 A The block that

-- well, there's 17 two blocks underneath the signature. One that 18 says this does not contain dangerous goods

-- 19 and that one is initialed. And the other one, 20 that the shipment does contain, is left blank. 21 So looking at this, it would indicate that 22 there were none present. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 116 1 Q And this is a worksheet for airway 2 bill 02733719873? 3 A Yes. 4 Q So C-3 you've indicated is the 5 computerized version of this worksheet? 6 A Correct. 7 Q And these two documents were sent 8 to you by Alaska Airlines? 9 A No. When I went to the

-- their 10 freight facility, I got copies of this. 11 Q Okay. When you were investigating 12 this particular case. 13 A Yes. 14 MS. JONES: Your Honor, I ask that 15 complainant's Exhibit C-2 andC-3 be admitted. 16 MS. HOZUBIN: No objection. 17 JUDGE GOODWIN: C-2 for 18 identification is received into evidence as 19 Complainant's 2. 20 (Complainant's exhibit C-2 21 admitted) 22 JUDGE GOODWIN: And Complainant's NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005·3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 117
1 3 for identification is received into evidence 2 as Complainant's 3. 3 (Complainant's exhibit C-3 4 admitted) 5 Q Mr. Deitz, as part of your 6 investigation, did you receive a hazardous 7 materials incident report from Alaska 8 Airlines? 9 A Yes. 10 MS. JONES: Counsel, I'm referring 11 to complainant's Exhibit C-8. 12 MS. HOZUBIN: Okay. 13 MS. JONES: Your Honor, may I 14 approach? 15 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sorry about that. 16 I'm trying to get this stupid thing

-- I've 17 owned this thing two days and I still haven't 18 figured out what it does. 19 Q Mr. Deitz, I'm showing you what's 20 been marked as complainant's Exhibit C-8 for 21 identification. Do you recognize this 22 document? NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 118 1 A Yes. 2 Q Can you tell us what that is? 3 A a copy of a hazardous 4 materials incident report -- or a DOT 5800.14. 5 Q And what

-- to what matter is this 6 incident report concerning? 7 A The shipment of the Pro-Poxy in 8 question. 9 Q And did you obtain this incident 10 report in the investigation of this case? 11 A Yes. 12 Q And what did you learn from this 13 report? 14 A It's another piece of paper from 15 or report from Alaska Airlines that on this 16 date this is what they found. They have 17 adhesives class three, 1133. That Parsons was 18 the shipper because that's who's on the airway 19 bill. And it through everything else 20 that's on there. Also in the back, part s1x, 21 it says it was discovered while screening and 22 that we were notified. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 119
1 Q 

### Where on the report does it 2 indicate that it was a hazardous material 3 adhesive, I guess you said, was shipped? 4 A Line 14. 5 Q 

### And so what does it say there? 6 That 7 A 

### It says proper shipping name of 8 hazardous material, adhesives containing a 9 flammable liquid. 10 Q 

### And does it

-- and you indicated 11 

### it describes how it should have been shipped? 12 A They list the proper shipping 13 name, UN number, and class. 14 Q 

### And what do they list? 15 A 

### Here it says hazard class 30, but 16 I'm sure they mean 3 because there is no 30. 17 Just a finger skip. Identification number is 18 UN1133. 19 Q 

### And you indicated that they found 20 

### it during screening. What part was that at 21 again? 22 A 

### That was on the last page of the NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 120 1 

### report, part s1x, under descriptionof events. 2 Q 

### And it was at this point that they 3 also indicated there that they notified FAA 4 hazmat agents. And that would be yourself? 5 A 

### Yes, and Gary. 6 

### MS. JONES: Your Honor, I ask that 7 complainant's Exhibit C-8 be admitted. 8 

### MS. HOZUBIN: Object, based on 9 

### foundation. Mr. Deitz didn't prepare this. 10 And hearsay as well. 11 JUDGE GOODWIN: That goes to 12 weight. Objection overruled. 13 

### (Complainant's exhibit C-8 14 admitted) 15 Q 

### After receiving the information 16 

### from Alaska Airlines and taking the 17 photographs of the shipment, what didyou then 18 do in your investigation, Mr. Deitz? 19 A 

### When I returned back to the 20 office, I go into

-- we have

-- well, decide 21 that we're going to proceed on, we go into 22 

### we have a case log where I go and I entered 1n
NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 121 1 

### the

-- who the shipper was and my name as the 2 case agent, the date that we were notified and 3 investigated, what mainviolationthat we sort 4 of put in there in the log. And then so -- 5 and that's where we assign it a case number. 6 It's the next one in line. And then with that 7 number and stuff, I sit down and write a what 8 

### we call a letter of investigation, LI, and 9 

### send that to the shipper. 10 Q 

### And who did you address the letter 11 

### of investigation to in this case? 12 A In this case, I addressed it to 13 Parsons because they were listed on the 14 waybill. And it was their cap number so 15 

### MS. JONES: Counsel, I'm going to 16 refer to complainant's Exhibit C-21 for 17 identification. May I approach, Your Honor? 18 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. 19 Q 

### Mr. Deitz, I'm showing you what's 20 marked as Exhibit C-21 for identification. 21 Can you take a look at that? Do you recognize 22 C-21? NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 122 1 A Yes. 2 Q And can you tell us what Exhibit 3 C-21 is? 4 A This is a copy of the letter that 5 was sent to Parsons concerning the 6 investigation. 7 Q And ln this letter of 8 investigation, what was your concern with the 9 shipment? 10 A Well, as it was reported, that the 11 epoxy was an adhesive class three, flammable 12 liquid. And that it was not declared when it 13 was offered. 14 Q And so in your letter of 15 investigation, you were did you get a 16 response to this letter of investigation? 17 A Yes. 18 Q And who did you get a response 19 from? 20 A I got a response from

-- signed by 21 Todd from TGI Freight. And he stated that 22 they were the agent for all hazardous NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 123 1 

### materials for Parsons. And that he

-- they 2 acceptedfull responsibilityfor the shipment. 3 He also said that he was getting ready to 4 

### leave. Go out of

-- I think it was out of 5 

### town or something. And he needed I think it 6 

### was 17 days or something. And that he would 7 get back to me. And then he sent another 8 letter after that. It was a full response. 9 Q 

### Okay. So you sent a this 10 Exhibit C-21 1 

### this letterof investigation/ to 11 Mr. Harrington at Parsons? 12 A Yes. 13 Q 

### And got a response back from Mr. 14 Clark at TGI Freight? 15 A 

### Yes. 16 Q 

### Okay. 17 MS. JONES: I 

### ask that 18 complainant 1 

### s Exhibit C-21 be admitted. 19 

### MS. HOZUBIN: No objection. 20 JUDGE GOODWIN: Complainant 1 S 

### 21 21 for identification lS 

### admitted as 22 Complainant 1 S 

### 21.
NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 124 1 (Complainant's exhibit C-21 2 admitted) 3 MS. JONES: Your Honor, may I 4 approach? 5 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. 6 MS. JONES: And I'll give counsel 7 Exhibit 22. 8 MS. HOZUBIN: Uh-huh. 9 Q Mr. Deitz, I'm showing you 10 complainant's exhibit marked C-22 for 11 identification. Do you recognize this letter? 12 A Yes. 13 Q And what 1s this letter? 14 A This is the first letter that I 15 received. 16 Q From? 17 A From Mr. Clark from TGI Freight. 18 Q And this letter indicated what 19 from Mr. Clark? 20 A Well, it says that he's the

-- as 21 TGI Freight represents Parsons Corporation as 22 dangerous goods agent for all their

-- for NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com- ------ ------------------------------------------------- 

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• 125 1 

### their a1r shipments. And he requests that all 2 correspondence, any dealings with this matter 3 

### be referred to him. He said he's currently 4 investigating the details and doesn't have 5 enough information yet to make comment. And 6 

### that he'll be traveling for the next 17 days 7 

### and asked for more time. And that he would 8 provide, you know, more details later. 9 Q 

### And did this letter respond to the 10 shipment of Pro-Poxy 400 airway bill number 11 33719873? 12 A 

### Yes. 13 MS. JONES: Your Honor, I ask that 14 complainant's Exhibit C-22 be admitted. 15 

### MS. HOZUBIN: No objection. 16 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Complainant's 22 17 for identification is received into evidence 18 as Complainant's 22. 19 (Complainant's exhibit C-22 20 admitted) 21 Q 

### Did Mr. Clark send an additional 22 response? NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 126 1 A 

### Yes. 2 

### MS. JONES: C-23, counsel. Your 3 Honor, may I approach? 4 Q 

### Mr. Deitz, I'm showing you 5 complainant's C-23 marked for identification. 6 Do you recognize this letter? 7 A 

### Yes. 8 Q 

### And what is this letter? 9 A 

### This is the we call it the 10 actual letter of response that that 11 

### where hepresents other information, youknow, 12 and you know, of what was asked for. 13 Copies of the waybill, proof of Mr. Jueneman's 14 

### training. Other items of extenuating 15 mitigation and that sort of thing. 16 Q 

### So this is the letter of response 17 that Mr. Clark sent in response to the LOI? 18 A 

### Correct. 19 Q 

### And what did you learn from this 20 letter of response from Mr. Clark? 21 A 

### Some of their procedures that they 22 

### go through. But having been there many times, NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 127
1 

### a lot of that is known. He makes note in here 2 of the flashpoint being

-- for part Abeing 65 3 

### degrees, which being under 73 

### degrees 4 Fahrenheit shouldbe a packing group two. And 5 

### he calls it and he says it's an 6 inconsistency with the MSDS, which says it's 7 a packing group three. But he also references 8 the same thing that a Mr. Julian there at 9 Unitex stated, that because of the viscosity 10 

### and the small amounts, they could by 11 regulation make it a packing group three. 12 They also sent coples of the other waybills 13 and shipper's declarations for the other items 14 that were shipped that day, such as the fire 15 

### extinguisher. And those were all done 16 correctly. 17 Q 

### So you indicated that he noted 18 that the flashpoint was 65 degrees Fahrenheit 19 and that he said that section 14 of the MSDS 20 contradicts itselfby statingthat theproduct 21 is a packing group three. Earlier you stated 22 in your testimony that you contacted the NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 128
1 

### manufacturer about that. So did this concern 2 you in any way? 3 A 

### Initially, yes. When I first got 4 

### the MSDS and I contacted they told me 5 that's why it was a three. And he basically 6 states the same thing. That it's a -- under 7 the

-- oh, citation of 173121B and 1iiiii

-- 8 

### anyway, that it can go. And he talks about 9 that

-- at the end there that the manufacturer 10 ships the product, but he claims that they 11 weren't shipping it correctly. That-- it says 12 they failed to mark the outer packages. And 13 I 

### went over to Alaska Sand and Gravel and 14 talked with them and looked at the pallets on 15 the floor. And when they receive them, they 16 receive everythingbybarge

-- the containers. 17 So the pallets and everything that's there is 18 not an outer packaging. Those are inside a 19 container. When I 

### was there most of them were 20 partiallybroken down. And as long as they're 21 --if they're shipping by-- you know, there's 22 the IMDG, the InternationalMaritimeDangerous
NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 129 1 

### Goods regulations that they have to meet for 2 a lot of the shipments by sea or surface. 3 

### It's different. It's not something I would 4 profess to be an expert at. And since it was 5 not shipped by air, it was out of my 6 

### jurisdiction. Had the Unitex been a 7 continuation of the shipment by barge to TGI 8 Freight, then how it was marked, to me, would 9 

### have been appropriate. But seeing as how 10 

### there was nothing there. It was already 11 

### unloaded and on shelves when I got there. And 12 

### the fact that it was purchased from the 13 

### storefront to Parsons and then Parsons took 14 

### that to TGI Freight, the other stuff was I 15 

### did not consider much as being relevant. 16 Q 

### Okay. 17 A 

### But it was considered. 18 Q 

### Okay. You're
-- you've just 19 

### let me under see if I understand what 20 you're say1ng. You went over to Alaska Sand 21 

### and Gravel. 22 A 

### Correct. Because that's where NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 130
1 

### Parsons purchased it from. 2 Q 

### Parsons purchased the material. 3 A 

### Correct. 4 Q 

### Now, you don't know how Parsons
-- 5 did you find out how Parsons received the 6 

### material? Was that what you went to check 7 out? 8 A 

### Well, I went -- well, based upon 9 what was said here, that the things were being 10 shipped. Because they were saying they were 11 relying on information from the manufacturer 12 

### as it was shipped to Alaska. And when I went 13 over there, I made the determination that it 14 was already delivered at Sand and Gravel, 15 

### broken down, then purchased. Because they 16 didn't buy it a pallet load or -- they just 17 bought, you know, the individual boxes. 18 Q 

### They being 19 A 

### Parsons. 20 Q 

### Parsons bought individual 21 A 

### Individual boxes. 22 Q 

### -- boxes. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 131 1 A 

### Right. And then those

-- 2 Q 

### From
-- 3 A 

### Right. From Alaska Sand and 4 Gravel. 5 Q 

### So Parsons didn't buy an entire 6 pallet from Alaska Sand and Gravel. 7 A 

### Not to my knowledge. 8 Q 

### Okay. So they bought individual 9 boxes and that's what was brought to TGI 10 Freight. 11 A 

### Correct. 12 Q 

### Four boxes. 13 A 

### Right. 14 Q 

### And did you ask any additional 15 questions of Alaska Sand and Gravel about how 16 they received shipments? 17 A 

### Yes. I talked to -- well, I went 18 

### and got his card. I had it. I probably 19 dropped it when I went through security. But 20 one of their managers there that was at the 21 plant, I talked to him and asked him how they 22 

### received it. And he said everything, because NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 132 1 of its weight, comes up 1n the containers, 2 like surface transport by truck that the 3 container is lifted off and put on a ship and 4 then put onto another truck for delivery to 5 them. So he said everything was barged up 6 from the Lower 48 that they received. 7 Q So they receive

-- Alaska Sand and 8 Gravel

-- shipments of the Pro-Poxybyground. 9 A Surface. 10 Q Surface. Ground. And that 11 includes 12 A Water. 13 Q -- water. 14 A Correct. 15 Q And the requirements for ground, 16 surface including water -- are different 17 than a1r. 18 A Right. 19 Q Did you receive any other 20 documentation from Alaska Airlines in your 21 investigation of this matter? 22 A I was made aware of a -- notes NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 133 1 they called them in their cargo spot, 1s what 2 they call it, I think. And that the agent in 3 Ketchikan had entered after Mr. Peyton (ph) 4 visited them, you know, and told her that the 5 stuff was shipped as hazmat and he didn't 6 understand why it was there. They make notes 7 of everything. I asked if I could receive a 8 copy of it. Initially they had to check with, 9 you know, their legal department to see if it 10 was something we had to subpoena or not. And 11 they made the determination I could have it, 12 so I was emailed that

-- the cargo spot notes. 13 MS. JONES: Okay. This is Exhibit 14 

## c- 24. 15 Q Mr. Deitz, I'm showing you a copy 16 of Exhibit C- 24 for identification. Do you 17 recognize this document? 18 A Yes. That's the cargo spot note 19 that was sent to me by email. 20 Q And what does this note say? 21 A It says that legal said I could 22 have it the car spot and airway bill note NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 134 1 

### --you know, the airway bill number 33719873. 2 

### And it said on 2/23 

### at 1300 

### p.m., consignee 3 came to pick up and was advised that it never 4 left Anchorage due hazmat. He advised that he 5 left with TGI Freight to ship as hazmat and 6 paid them to fill out the paperwork. And then 7 it's the agent's initials in Ketchikan. 8 

### MS. JONES: Your Honor, I ask that 9 Exhibit C-24 be admitted. 10 

### MS. HOZUBIN: Same objections as 11 

### last time, Your Honor. Hearsay. Foundation. 12 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: How did you come 13 

### into possession of this, Mr. Deitz? 14 A 

### Well, I 15 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Is this an email 16 

### that was sent to you? 17 A 

### This is an email sent to me by Mr. 18 

### Mike Tobin, who 1s
-- 19 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 20 A 

### head of their regulatory 21 

### department in Seattle. 22 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yeah. I'll let
NEAL

### R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com**-----~~~-------------------------------------------** 

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• 135 1 

### you enter it, but it goes to weight. You 2 

### received it, but you're right. There's no 3 foundation so it certainly goes to weight. 4 

### (Complainant's exhibit C-24 5 

### admitted) 6 Q 

### Mr. Deitz, did you have an 7 opportunity to speak with Jose Gaytan about 8 this case? 9 A 

### I did. 10 Q 

### Can you tell me about your 11 

### conversation with Mr. Gaytan? What did you 12 discuss with him in your -- 13 A 

### Well, I discussed with him the 14 procedures that he went through to take this 15 to TGI Freight. And he said that

-- much as 16 what he had said earlier

-- is that he had 17 they segregated it. He took it down to Dexter 18 

### as a with these other hazmat items to be 19 shipped on TGI Freight. 20 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: It's always my 21 favorite question in cross examination to a 22 

### young, new officer fresh out of the academy. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 136 1 Officer, did you discuss your testimony with 2 your partner? And there's this deer in the 3 headlights look. I did that to a Maryland 4 state policeman once. I thought his partner 5 was going to fall off his chair laughing. 6 Q Did Mr. Gaytan give you a 7 statement? 8 A I asked for one. He was getting 9 ready to leave on another job when I
-- so he 10 was 1n a rush. And he emailed it afterwards. 11 MS. JONES: Exhibit C-25. 12 Q Mr. Deitz, I'm showing you Exhibit 13 C-25 marked for identification. Do you 14 recognize this? 15 A Uh-huh. (Affirmative) 16 Q And what is this document C-25? 17 A Well, it's the statement that Jose 18 Gaytan emailed. 19 Q Emailed 20 A To me, yeah, per the request. 21 MS. JONES: Your Honor, I ask that 22 complainant's Exhibit C-25 be admitted.
NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 137 1 

### MS. JONES: Hearsay and 2 foundation. Mr. Gaytan already testified. It 3 could have been brought 1n through him. 4 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: The better 5 testimony 1s the line of testimony of the 6 

### witness, which we've already heard. I'll 7 receive the testimony of the witness as to how 8 this becomes a part of the chronology, but the 9 statement of Jose the witness was here and 10 

### available 11 A 

### Right. 12 

### MS. JONES: Right. 13 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: to testify

-- 14 

### and he testified. So I'll sustain the 15 

### objection. But the testimony of this current 16 

### witness as to the

-- how this is a part of the 17 

### chronology, is certainly good testimony. 18 Q 

### So you spoke with Mr. Gaytan and 19 

### learned from him that they had hazmat 20 hazardous materials items that needed to be 21 

### shipped. And that they

-- Parsons via he 22 took the hazardous materials to where? NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 138 1 A 

### Down to the FAA shipping person, 2 which was Dexheimer. 3 Q 

### And did he tell you what happened 4 after that? 5 A 

### Well, I did go down and I spoke 6 with Mr. Dexheimer. And he said the stuff

-- 7 the

-- all the items were presented to him. 8 And when it came to the Pro-Poxy, he tried to 9 find something in 49, but he didn't find, you 10 know, epoxy or Pro-Poxy or something listedas 11 

### a proper shipping name. But he still felt 12 

### that it was hazardous and that's why he then 13 took it over to TGI Freight. 14 Q 

### And did they tell you anything 15 

### after that? What happened from their 16 knowledge? Did you learn anything more from 17 

### them your discussions with either Mr. 18 Gaytan or Mr. Dexheimer? 19 A 

### In regard well, before or 20 after? 21 Q 

### To the case. 22 A 

### I mean NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 139 1 Q 

### From your discussions with them. 2 You just testified that you spoke with them 3 about the case. Did you learn anything new or 4 5 A 

### Well, speaking with them about how 6 they took it and shipped it. They also

-- I 7 mean it was also mentioned in the fact that

-- 8 not with how they shipped it, which is what I 9 was more concerned

-- but they did talk about 10 the fact that they took my initial letter over 11 

### to TGI Freight and discussed that. 12 Q 

### After the fact. 13 A 

### Right. But what I was primarily 14 looking for there was how they shipped it and 15 how it came to be at TGI Freight. And what 16 was represented to them. 17 Q 

### When you were speaking with Mr. 18 Dexheimer, did you take any notes of that 19 conversation? 20 A 

### Yes. 21 

### MS. JONES: C-26. I'll ask you to 22 mark it as complainant's Exhibit C-26 for NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 140 1 

### identification. 2 Q 

### Do you recognize this document? 3 A 

### Uh-huh. Yes. Those are my notes. 4 Q 

### And those are your notes of your 5 conversation with Mr. Dexheimer? 6 A 

### Yes. 7 Q 

### When Mr. Dexheimer

-- did just he 8 

### go take the hazardous material over to TGI 9 

### Freight or did Mr. Gaytan go with him? 10 A 

### I don't know if Mr. Gaytan went 11 

### with him that time or not. I know he did 12 

### later. But at the initial, I don't know. 13 Q 

### Okay. From reviewing your notes, 14 

### do you recollect what Mr. Dexheimer indicated 15 

### happened when they went over to you? 16 A 

### Well, he took it over and, 17 according to him, identified it as possible 18 hazardous materials. And asked them to handle 19 it and they said they would handle it. That's 20 pretty much it. Or take care of it, I think 21 

### is his words. 22 Q 

### In your notes you indicated that NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 141
1 they spoke with Jeff Jueneman at TGI Freight. 2 A Well, that's who it would have 3 been. He said it was just the person 4 receiving the freight at the door. The person 5 that they always take it to. And the person 6 that's-- every time I've been there, the one 7 that works down there all the time, unless 8 he's on vacation, would be Jeff. 9 Q Okay. And it looks like in your 10 note it says they took to TGI. Said they 11 might have more hazmat. To check it out. And 12 you said TGI
-- can you read what this is? 13 I'm not sure I see it. 14 A Which portion? 15 Q The part with the you have 16 there

-- right after 17 A Have more hazmat. You to check it 18 out, yeah. 19 Q And right after that? 20 A TGI Freight. And they said that 21 they would check it out. 22 Q It
-- NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 142 1 A So what he was referring to when 2 he took it over there is

-- was -- you know, 3 there was the Cadweld shots, the fire 4 extinguisher. Things that they knew were 5 definitely hazmat. And when he was talking 6 about more hazmat, then that. That's what he 7 was referring to, was the Pro-Poxy. That's 8 why he said

-- he didn't say -- to me he 9 didn't say that he had told them that 10 everything was hazmat. He said might have 11 more hazmat

-- this stuff. 12 Q This stuff being the

-- 13 A The Pro-Poxy. 14 Q the Pro-Poxy? 15 A Right. 16 Q And so they're referring to that 17 this Pro-Poxy might be hazmat and that TGI 18 Freight should check out this

-- 19 A Yes. 20 Q -- Pro-Poxy. 21 A Right. 22 Q And that TGI Freight then NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISlANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

# • 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 143 responded that they

-- A That they would. Q
-- would check out A Right. Q
-- the Pro-Poxy. And that's what your understanding was from those. A Yes. MS. JONES: Okay. Complainant asks that Exhibit C-26 be admitted. MS. HOZUBIN: No objection. JUDGE GOODWIN: 26 for identification is received into evidence as Complainant's 26. (Complainant's exhibit C-26 admitted) Q Mr. Deitz, are you familiar with the concept trigger terms? A Yes. Q How are you familiar with that term terminology? A Well, when I used to teach hazmat, we referred to -- used the term trigger terms. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 145 1 A 

### There's a lot of terms. To me, 2 epoxy was a trigger term until it was 3 presented at the informal

-- that many MSDSs 4 with epox1es that weren't regulated were 5 

### presented. I was pretty much under the 6 impressionbecause the only epoxies that I had 7 dealt with were considered hazardous. Either 8 the chemical process was either an oxidizing 9 or a flammable-type process that was, you 10 

### know, one of the two parts. That one of them 11 

### was regulated. So to me, that was, too. It 12 

### might have been to them as well. I know that 13 

### the more generic the term -- or it's something 14 

### that contains other items like the household 15 

### goods or camping gear -- if someone's go1ng 16 

### camping-- or hunting gear, there's generally 17 

### stoves, fuel for the stoves, lanterns, 18 

### matches, things like that. And hunting would 19 

### also that would apply. You know, 20 ammunition generally. So a generic term like 21 

### that 1s what most of the airlines look for. 22 Q 

### If you can -- I think up there 1s NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 146
1 

### Exhibit A-14 (sic) that's been admitted into 2 evidence. I mean C-14. Sorry, not A. It's 3 

### in my administrative processes. Go to page 4 one. 5 A 

### I don't see C-14 here. 6 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: There is no 14. 7 If there was -- 8 

### MS. JONES: I think they were left 9 

### up there, but

-- 10 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: I'm sorry. 14 lS 

### 11 the photographs. 12 

### MS. JONES: Yeah. It's a photo. 13 It's one photo. And I've got like the other 14 pages. 15 A 

### But we stopped at -- 16 Q 

### Mr. Deitz, it looks like this. 17 A 

### Oh. It's a label. 18 Q 

### Yeah. 19 A 

### Oh, there it is. 20 Q 

### Do you see it? 21 A 

### Yeah. Okay. 22 Q 

### We were speaking of trigger terms. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com,-------------- 

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• 147 1 

### Is there any term in that photo that jumps out 2 at you, that you would consider a trigger 3 term? 4 A 

### Well, not all inclusive. But as I 5 said, before receiving the other MSDSs 6 epoxy. And it still would be because of a lot 7 of epoxies are. It would tell me I would need 8 to get more information. And in the warn1ng 9 

### down 1n the bottom. Well, there's that

-- 10 

### what do they call it? WINTS (ph)? I can't 11 

### even remember what it starts for. Those 12 

### international symbols. They do have the key 13 

### there, I think, which is not a transport 14 

### information, but it is an indication that 15 

### there might be something else there. Plus in 16 

### the box below that it does say -- it calls 17 

### this an adhesive anchor. So adhesives would 18 

### be another term. And again not all adhesives 19 

### are regulated, but some are. It's a lot like 20 paints. A lot are and a lot aren't. 21 Q 

### So the presence of a trigger term 22 what does that do for someone that spots a NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 148 1 

### trigger term? What does that

-- 2 A 

### If someone recog -- like something 3 like this, that would be huh, it might be 4 hazardous. It doesn't say it is, but it might 5 

### be. Therefore, most of them would look 6 further for more information. 7 Q 

### And where might you look further 8 for more information? 9 A 

### Looking at-- I don't

-- if on one 10 of these labels there was -- either contact 11 

### the manufacturer or get a material safety data 12 

### sheet, 1s what I would do. 13 MS. JONES: Counsel, Exhibit C-34 14 through 40. 15 Q 

### Mr. Deitz, this is complainant's 16 Exhibit C-34 through 40 that I've marked for 17 identification. Can you take a look at those? 18 And Mr. Deitz, we will take them

-- 19 A 

### Wait a minute. 20 Q 

### I think it's C-34, pages one 21 

### through forty. I misspoke. 22 A 

### Yes. Okay. All right. Well, the NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 149 1 first one says not regulated by ground; 2 however 3 Q Well, hold on, Mr. Deitz. 4 A Oh. 5 Q Let's go ahead a little slower. 6 First, do you recognize the documents? 7 A Well, they are material safety 8 data sheets for various adhesives or epoxies. 9 Q And how do you recognize these 10 documents? 11 A I believe these are ones I went 12 online and pulled in response to the others. 13 We received a number of MSDSs with epoxies 14 that were not regulated. And so what I did 15 was I just went online and just pulled a 16 number aga1n not all inclusive of 17 epoxies that are. 18 Q So these are MSDSs for epoxies 19 that are regulated. 20 A Yes. 21 Q Examples of epoxies that are 22 regulated. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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•

• 150 1 A 

### Right. 2 Q 

### And you obtained them yourself? 3 A 

### From the internet, yes. 4 Q 

### Okay. Looking at page one, that's 5 MSDS for what product? 6 A 

### Just a second. It says it's 7 Loctite marine epoxy res1n. 8 Q 

### And do you -- from the MSDS, do 9 you understand it's a hazmat because you 10 

### looked at what part of the MSDS? 11 

### A Well, again if you go to the 12 

### transportation section, this particular stuff 13 

### 1s
-- it says for transportation by ground is 14 

### not regulated; however, for air and water, 15 

### it's an environmentally hazardous substance. 16 Q 

### Okay. And if you turn to page 17 

### s1x, what product 1s that? 18 A 

### Well, the one was the res1n and 19 

### this is the hardener for that epoxy -- the 20 other half of the kit. 21 Q 

### Okay. 22 A 

### And this part, poly amines (ph) NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 151 1 liquid corrosive N.O.S. 2 Q All right. And again you turned 3 to the section 14. 4 A Correct. 5 Q And that being on page ten. 6 A Yes. 7 Q And it indicates 1n this case that 8 this product is 9 A That it's a corrosive. 10 Q That it's a corrosive and it's 11 needs to be properly marked, labeled, et 12 cetera, for both ground and air. 13 A Yes. And water. 14 Q And water. So turning to page 12, 15 what product did you pull? 16 A And this is a Loctite's bonder 17 epoxy part A. 18 Q And you noted that it was hazmat. 19 A Uh-huh. (Affirmative) 20 Q And that was page 15. 21 A Yes. 22 Q And that's section 14 also. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 152 1 A 

### Uh-huh. Correct. 2 Q 

### Under the transport information. 3 JUDGE GOODWIN: 

### You have to say 4 yes or no. 5 A 

### Oh, yes. I'm sorry. 6 Q 

### Yes? Okay. And what is it's 7 proper shipping name? 8 A 

### Adhesives. 9 Q 

### And the shipping class? 10 A 

### Three. 11 Q 

### And the UN number? 12 A 1133. 13 Q 

### And a packing group? 14 A 

### Two. 15 Q 

### Any exceptions? 16 A 

### Yes. It says F. It's a real 17 small amount, under five liters, it can go as 18 

### a consumer commodity

-- ground. And IATA 19 makes the same thing

-- that it can go as a 20 consumer commodity. 21 Q 

### And this 22 A 

### But much less, 500 milliliters. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 153 1 Half a liter versus five liters. 2 Q Okay. And the next one you pulled 3 out of page -- 4 A Was the same material, but part V. 5 Q Part V. And that would be page 6 17, it looks like. 7 A Uh-huh. Oops. 8 Q And you noted this was also 9 hazardous material. 10 A Correct. 11 Q By looking at the transportation 12 section 13 A Correct. Just like the part A. 14 It's an adhesive, but in small amounts can be 15 shipped as a consumer product. 16 Q And that is found on page 20 of 17 the Exhibit? 18 A Correct. Yes. 19 Q And the next product is 20 A Is a one-minute epoxy instant mix. 21 Q Page 21? 22 A Is it 20 or is it

-- yes, 21. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 154 1 Q 

### And you noted that that was hazmat 2 by looking at section 14 again. 3 A 

### Yes. 4 Q 

### And that would be on page 24? 5 A 

### Yes. 6 Q 

### Could you also have noted that 7 these were hazardous materials by looking at 8 that section five you'd discussed? The 9 flashpoints? 10 A 

### The flashpoint is an indicator of 11 

### a packing group generally for flammable 12 liquids. A corrosive, you know, may not have 13 a flashpoint. So generally where I 

### go first 14 on a MSDS is just the transport information to 15 see if anything is there. There may not be. 16 And then you have to look through the rest of 17 the document. 18 Q 

### So if the section 14 tells you the 19 information, then you're-- you don't need to 20 look further. 21 A 

### Correct. Yes. 22 Q 

### Okay. So you're looking at the NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 155 1 transportation information on page 24 for the 2 one-minute epoxy instant mix andnoted that it 3 needed a consumer commodity ORM-D if it was 4 not more than a liter. Otherwise it needed a 5 more comprehensive 6 A Yes. 7 Q
-- shipping information. 8 A Corrosive liquids, basic, organic, 9 N.O.S. And a bicyclic amide. 10 Q Okay. The next one you pulled 11 out, on page 26. 12 A Yes. 13 Q Was and that product was what? 14 A The Loctite gel epoxy resin. 15 Q And you noted that was hazardous 16 again at section 14 on page 29. 17 A Correct. Yes. 18 Q And this one was hazardous if 19 shipped by a1r, not necessarily by ground; is 20 that right? 21 A It says it's not regulated for 22 ground shipment. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 156 1 Q But it is if transported by air. 2 A Yes. 3 Q So there is a difference depending 4 on how something is transported. 5 A Yes. 6 Q Whether by ground or by air. 7 A Yes. 8 Q Okay. And the next product

-- 9 A Is the hardener for that gel. 10 Q Uh-huh. And that's on page 31. 11 A Yes. 12 Q And the transport information for 13 that led you to believe it was hazardous, 14 correct? 15 A Yes. 16 Q And that's on page 34? 17 A Yes. 18 Q And so the next product you looked 19 at was 20 A West System fast hardener. 21 Q And that's on page 36? 22 A Uh-huh. Yes. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 157
1 Q 

### And that you determined was 2 hazardous because of the information in 3 section 14 again on page 38. 4 A 

### Thirty-eight, yes. 5 Q 

### All right. Then I think there was 6 one more product that you found. 7 A 

### Yes. 8 Q 

### And that was what? 9 A 

### It was an epoxy coat. And on the 10 notes that I have written in the corner as 11 part A was not regulated. But part B was as 12 

### a class eight. 13 Q 

### And you determined that was 14 regulated by looking at what? 15 A 

### The same section of the MSDS. I 

### 16 believe in this case, however, this was on the 17 internet. I could view the MSDS, but I could 18 not print it out. 19 Q 

### And that's on exhibit --page 40, 20 the notes in the corner? 21 A 

### Yes. 22 Q 

### Those are your notes? NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 158 1 A 

### Yes. 2 Q 

### So in your experience, Mr. Deitz, 3 a lot of epoxies are hazardous. 4 A 

### Yes. Not all, as 1s proven. But 5 it's like paint. Not all paint is hazardous, 6 but a lot of it 1s. And it

-- and paint is a 7 proper shipping name. 8 Q 

### So if you see the word epoxy on 9 something 10 A 

### To me, it's a red flag. It's a 11 

### trigger term, as is adhesives, based on my 12 

### experience. 13 Q 

### And if you saw it, you would 14 

### definitely check

-- 15 A 

### Further, yes. 16 Q 

### How long does it take to pull up 17 

### an MSDS off the internet? 18 A 

### Varies. 19 Q 

### How long did it take you? 20 A 

### For these? It was not long. 21 Q 

### For Pro-Poxy. 22 A 

### For the Pro-Poxy
-- as I said, I NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 159 1 

### typed it ln. Pro-Poxy 400 MSDS and the Google 2 search and then it popped up. And the very 3 first thing on the top of the list of 4 everything that identified was the MSDS. You 5 

### just click on it and it's there. It took a 6 matter of seconds I'd say. And I've had some 7 that have taken a long time. 8 Q 

### Mr. Deitz, I believe you have the 9 MSDS in front of you there. Could you turn to 10 a -- 11 A 

### Oh, the Pro-Poxy one? 12 Q 

### Yeah. The Pro-Poxy one. 13 A 

### Okay. Let me pull it out of here. 14 

### MS. JONES: While you're doing 15 that, Your Honor, I ask that Exhibit C-34 be 16 admitted. 17 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Counsel, did you 18 want to take a minute to review before? She's 19 offered 34 for admission. 20 

### MS. HOZUBIN: Oh, I'm sorry. I do 21 

### have to ask relevance. That would be our 22 objection. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 160 1 A Well, I
-- 2 JUDGE GOODWIN: Overruled. 3 A Oh, sorry. 4 JUDGE GOODWIN: You don't get a 5 chance to 6 A I know. I'm sorry. 7 JUDGE GOODWIN: rule on this. 8 If you did, I wouldn't have anything to do. 9 34 for identification is received into 10 evidence as agency 34. 11 (Complainant's exhibit C-34 12 admitted) 13 Q Have you pulled that out? 14 A I've got it right here. 15 Q Okay. Do you know you 16 indicated that the MSDS isn't a requirement 17 for transportation. It's not a transportation 18 requirement for hazardous materials. I 19 believe you testified that it's not required. 20 A It 1s an OSHA document. Its 21 primary purpose is to provide, as was alluded 22 to before, for the safety of workers who are NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 161 1 working with the material. 2 Q So
-- 3 A Most manufacturers include 4 transportation information, not all. But on 5 every MSDS is a phone number to contact the 6 company or the manufacturer. And so if there 7 isn't transportation information present in 8 the MSDS, you can call the manufacturer and 9 say how do you ship it? You can talk to your 10 shipping department on how you ship it. You 11 can talk to the technicians that put the MSDS 12 together. The chemists and whatnot. And in 13 this particular case, under part one, 14 manufacturer, it's Unitex. Their address

-- 15 you can contact technical services. And 16 there's a telephone number and a fax number 17 and an email and a web address. 18 MS. JONES: Exhibit C-35. 19 Q I'm handing you what's been marked 20 as complainant's Exhibit C-35 for 21 identification. Mr. Deitz, do you recogn1ze 22 this document? NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 162 1 A Appendix C of the 21503B. 2 Q And how are you -- 3 A Or the FAA's sanction guidance. 4 Q And how are you familiar with this 5 document, Mr. Deitz? 6 A It's a guideline in preparing the 7 case. It gives a -- what we use most is the 8 table which is 1n the back of this, which is 9 the sanction guidance. 10 Q Is the agency's policy and 11 procedure for calculating the civil penalties 12 to be assessed in a case? 13 A Yes. 14 Q And in calculating those civil 15 penalties 1n a case, is this something that 16 you do in your duties and responsibilities as 17 a security hazmat security agent for the 18 FAA? 19 A Yes. 20 Q What is one of the first steps 21 that you do 1n assessing a case in general? 22 A The first, as far as the NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 163 1 sanctioning is concerned, is to identifywhere 2 on the matrix what type of hazardous 3 material we have. Whether it falls into a 4 category A, which is really bad stuff, orB, 5 moderate, or C, minimal. And

-- 6 Q And that 7 A that should be on -- 8 Q The risk 9 A The risk. I think it's the last 10 page here. Risk categories

-- C. Well, it's 11 all C-35, so it would be page 17. 12 Q So 1n this case, the material 13 Pro-Poxy 400, where in the risk category does 14 Pro-Poxy 400 fall? 15 A Although the flashpoint of

-- as 16 we discussed in there was 65, which could have 17 been a two. Because they're allowed to ship it 18 as a three, I put it into category B, moderate 19 weight of

-- so it shows under class three, 20 packing group three, flammable liquids. 21 Q And we get that 65 degrees from 22 the NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 164
1 A 

### From the MSDS. 2 Q 

### MSDS, section five, the 3 flashpoint. 4 A 

### Correct. From their part A. 5 Q 

### So it would normally be a category 6 

### A? 7 A 

### If it was packing group two, it 8 would be category A. Because they're allowed 9 to ship it as a packing group three, I put it 10 

### as a category B, packing group three, 11 flammable liquid. 12 Q 

### Okay. So it then becomes a 13 moderate weight. 14 A 

### Correct. Yes. 15 Q 

### Okay. What's the next thing you 16 look at when you're looking to assess a civil 17 penalty. Where do we go next? 18 A 

### Then on page 12, you look at the 19 offense category. Whether it was a declared 20 shipment, undeclared, undeclared forbidden on 21 passenger, or then totally forbidden. And I 22 

### determined this was an undeclared shipment, NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 165 1 

### but it was within quantity limitations for a 2 passenger aircraft, so it was a II for the 3 category. 4 Q 

### Undeclared shipment. And you 5 determined that from

-- what was your basis 6 for that again? 7 A 

### There were no markings or labels 8 on the box as shipped and it was not declared 9 as a hazardous material when shipped. There 10 was no shipping papers. 11 Q 

### Okay. So then what do you look 12 to? 13 A 

### Then we go across to -- and look 14 at A as an individual-- well, it's a company, 15 

### so it's not an individual. They are a 16 business entity. Uses
-- and D, that is a 17 primary portion of their business, not just 18 

### other freight. But of repackaging, making 19 

### hazmat. They ship a lot of hazmat. All 20 right. So I put them into the category D, of 21 a business entity that regularly offers, 22 accepts or transports hazmat. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 166 1 Q 

### So Mr. Deitz, would it be fair to 2 say that TGI Freight considers themselves to 3 be an expert 1n the area of shipping hazmat? 4 

### MS. HOZUBIN: Objection. 5 

### Speculation. Foundation. 6 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Sustained. 7 Q 

### Okay. So you consider them to be 8 

### a business entitythat regularly ships hazmat? 9 A 

### Yes. 10 Q 

### Okay. So then what's your next 11 

### step 1n analyzing it? 12 

### A Well, then I've determined that it 13 

### is a 

### so in this particular case, the fine 14 

### per violation would be $5,000 

### to $13,000 

### per 15 

### violation or section violation. And I 16 

### determined that it was a category B, a 17 

### moderate, so I went with the mid-range on that 18 

### of $9,000. 

### And then I went through the 19 

### categories here that they do. The shipping 20 

### papers, marking, packaging, training, 21 

### emergency response, and release. And as we 22 discussed 1n this case, just evaluating NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 167 1 

### everything else because we figured

-- we look 2 at all the information that we were given. 3 And you can maybe play a little bit with that. 4 I did not cite them for having the emergency 5 

### response information. I could have, but I 6 didn't. So instead of, you know, $36,000, we 7 went out at $27,000. 8 Q 

### Now, there's some indication that 9 if there's only a small amount, whether or not 10 emergency response information is required or 11 

### not. Can you discuss that a little? 12 A If you're shipping something as a 13 consumer commodity or a limited quantity or 14 something like that, those are considered 15 reclassifications. But you can't reclassify 16 something if you don't declare it classified 17 first. If it's an undeclared shipment we go 18 back to the base product. A common item are 19 

### aerosols

-- flammable aerosols. If it's an 20 undeclared, what's in there

-- it's a 2.1 gas, 21 which makes it a category A. If it's a 2.2, 22 that's actually a C and generally doesn't

-- NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 168 1 

### it's a rating case or it's an ORM-D on the 2 the guidance. So the base product is what is 3 there. Now, the MSDS or something, you know, 4 based upon different things in there, if you 5 can go with a smaller amount and ship it as 6 less, but you still have to ship it as a 7 

### hazmat. You have to declare that it's a 8 smaller amount and ship it as an ORM-D. And 9 then if you're shipping it as a consumer 10 commodity ORM-D air, in this case, then I 11 

### believe that it says for most of

-- that you 12 

### don't need the emergency response telephone 13 

### number and stuff. It doesn't have to be 14 there. But if you don't declare it at all, 15 then it goes back to being a full-fledged 16 class three flammable liquid, as is on the 17 MSDS. 18 Q 

### So in this case, because the 19 product was not declared, the emergency 20 response information was required. 21 A 

### Yes. 22 MS. JONES: Your Honor, I'd ask NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 169 1 

### that complainant's Exhibit C-35 be admitted. 2 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: So the sanction is 3 guidance? 4 

### MS. JONES: Yes, Your Honor. 5 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. The court 6 normallytakesjudicial notice to the sanction 7 of guidance which was in force at the time of 8 the violation. So I appreciate the fact that 9 

### you've offered a hard copy of it. But I 

### 10 always go back and make sure that we've got 11 

### the right version. So I'll take judicial 12 notice of it because it's a regulation. 13 (Complainant's exhibit C-35 14 admitted) 15 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. We're going 16 

### to take a 15-minute break. So we'll go off 17 the record. I'm going to instruct the witness 18 you're still under oath. Please return at 19 3:15. 20 (Off record) 21 JUDGE GOODWIN: I'll remind the 22 

### witness he's under oath. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 170 1 Q Mr. Deitz, you were just 2 testifying before the break concerning the 3 sanction guidance table and discussing risk 4 assessment. And it remindedme about a couple 5 of questions concerning Pro-Poxy itself. What 6 exactly are the risks of Pro-Poxy in shipping? 7 MS. HOZUBIN: I'm going to object 8 to foundation. 9 JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, I'm not sure 10 I understand the question. So let's

-- 11 MS. JONES: Okay. 12 Q As a hazardous material, we've 13 assigned it a moderate risk. 14 A In 15 Q In the table. You had discussed 16 the fact that it is assigned a moderate risk. 17 A Uh-huh. (Affirmative) 18 Q And

-- 19 JUDGE GOODWIN: You have to say 20 yes or no. 21 A Yes. 22 Q And as a risk posed to NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 171 1 

### transportationofhazardousmaterials, areyou 2 aware of the type of risk that this flammable 3 substances poses to transportation? 4 A 

### Well, as a flammable liquid, they 5 

### if there is a fire, you know, any kind of 6 incident like that on board the aircraft, 7 

### flammable liquids can act as an accelerant to 8 

### a fire. This particular item, because the 9 viscosity, it's being thicker, which is why 10 they allow it go as packing group three versus 11 

### a two, it's not if you want to use the term 12 runny as like if it was more runny, it 13 would have stayed as a packing group two. 14 Which means that if anything's damaged it can 15 leak out and flow and spread out to a fire. 16 And the risk assessment that they do on the 17 categories between an A and a B here, whether 18 it's a packing group one and two versus a 19 packing group three, generally deals with the 20 flashpoint. And that's a temperature that it 21 gives off the gases, will emanate. So three 22 is less of risk than a two. So that's why they NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 172 1 put it into that. 2 Q Okay. 3 A And I won't say that the people 4 that designed the people were smarter thanme, 5 but they're at a much higher pay rate than I. 6 Q Okay. Do you know whether or not 7 in your investigation, did your investigation 8 reveal whether or not the Pro-Poxy ever made 9 it out to the job site? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Your investigation did reveal 12 that? 13 A Yes. 14 Q And did it actually make it out to 15 the job site? 16 A Yes. 17 Q How do you know that? 18 A Well, as a follow-up, while doing 19 the investigation, I think that 1n talking 20 withMr. Gaytan and stuff, that it did get out 21 there. And since it did get out there and

-- 22 I had gone back to TGI and was looking for how NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005·3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 173 1 

### it was shipped

-- the other items that they 2 had. 3 Q 

### You went out to TGI to find out 4 how it was shipped. And what did you learn? 5 A 

### That they shipped it on ACE as a 6 consumer commodity because of its smaller 7 amounts that met that criteria. 8 Q 

### So TGI Freight shipped it as a 9 consumer commodity? 10 A 

### Yes. 11 Q 

### Do you remember on what airline 12 they shipped it? 13 A 

### ACE. 14 Q 

### ACE. 15 A 

### Alaska Central Express. 16 

### MS. JONES: Your Honor, I don't 17 think I have any more questions of Mr. Deitz 18 at the moment. 19 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Cross? Just be 20 mindful that in 65 minutes we're going to go 21 off the record. So if there's a logical place 22 that you want to break today and pick up in NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 174 1 the morning, I want to allow you to do so, 2 regardless of what the time is. 3 MS. HOZUBIN: Okay. 4 CROSS EXAMINATION 5 BY MS. HOZUBIN: 6 Q Mr. Deitz, do you still have the 7 MSDS for the Pro-Poxy 400 in front of you? 8 Exhibit C 9 A Yes. 10 Q -- C-19? 11 A Yes. It's right here. 12 Q All right. Earlier you testified 13 this 1s similar to the one that you pulled

-- 14 A Yes. 15 Q -- back in 2010. Let me ask you 16 you have been critical of TGI because they 17 didn't pull the MSDS, correct? When they were 18 trying to determine whether or not the 19 Pro-Poxy was hazardous? 20 A I guess critical would be okay 21 word, yes. 22 Q Okay. And you agree with me that NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 175 1 

### nowhere in the regulations is there a 2 requirement that a shipper pull an MSDS. 3 A 

### Yes. 4 Q 

### All right. And you agree with me 5 that many MSDSs can have mistakes on them, 6 correct? 7 A 

### Many? Not many. 8 Q 

### Some? 9 A 

### Maybe some. 10 Q 

### Okay. 11 A 

### I don't think I've
-- I've heard 12 

### that there were mistakes, but I don't believe 13 I've ever encountered one. 14 Q 

### And don't manufacturers, on their 15 

### MSDSs, specifically represent to anyone 16 reading the MSDS not to rely on it? 17 A 

### Offhand, there may be some. 18 Q 

### Okay. Well, let's take a look at 19 C-19, at page four, the last page. 20 A 

### Okay. 21 Q 

### Section 16, under other 22 information, it states the information and
NEAL

### R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 176 1 recommendations in this document which is 2 actually misspelled

-- are based on the best 3 information available to us at the time of 4 preparation. We make no other warranty, 5 express or implied, as to its correctness or 6 completeness or as to the results or reliance 7 of this product. Isn't that what that says? 8 A That's what it says. 9 Q Wouldn't a fair interpretation of 10 that be don't rely on this? 11 A No. It looks like a legal 12 interpretation of that they don't want to be 13 held liable, is what-- when I read that. And 14 let's see. And what they're couching is 15 they're saying this is the best information 16 that they have at the time. So if there is a 17 mistake, they do periodically update these. 18 And then they would correct it. Or if there is 19 a correction and

-- yes. And 20 Q Don't 21 A And can I take something back? I 22 do remember an instance where I did come NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 177 1 

### across an MSDS that was wrong. Had the wrong 2 

### packing group based upon like where I 3 

### questioned this one? Based upon the 4 flashpoint. And when I contacted them, they 5 

### looked at it and said yes. When they typed in, 6 

### they made the mistake. 7 Q 

### Okay. 8 A 

### They hit an extra strike on the 9 

### key. So yes, there was a mistake there. But 10 

### it was still the proper shipping 11 

### description andUN number were correct on that 12 one. 13 Q 

### All right. Back to C-19, it 14 specifically states we make no otherwarranty, 15 expressed or implied, as to its correctness or 16 completeness. 17 

### MS. JONES: Objection. Asked and 18 answered. 19 JUDGE GOODWIN: Go ahead. 20 

### MS. HOZUBIN: Oh, there was an 21 objection, Your Honor. 22 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Overruled. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 178 1 Q Okay. This specifically states we 2 make no other warranty, expressed or implied, 3 as to its correctness or completeness. Isn't 4 the manufacturer saying that this may not be 5 correct? 6 A Again, I think that that's, you 7 know, the couching legal thing that theyhave. 8 But if you use a material safety data sheet 9 and it turns out that the information that you 10 used by using this is incorrect

-- all right. 11 Let's say this-- for example, you know, this 12 is wrong and it's actually a corrosive. But 13 if you use the MSDS, package it, mark, and 14 label it accordingly, and it turns out to be 15 wrong, at that point I would have someone out 16 of the Seattle office contact FEMSA (ph) 17 directly and send them to the manufacturer 18 because they doing it giving out false 19 information on the stuff. However, if we look 20 at if someone uses an MSDS, too, then 21 they're

-- what we consider relying on the 22 best information available from the NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 179 1 manufacturer that

-- 2 Q You disagree that the best 3 information available is the information on 4 the packaging? 5 A Packaging comes under a lot of 6 different regulations, not necessarily 7 transportation. Okay? I mean there's a 8 warning on every bucket that I've seen that 9 says don't put your baby in it. But it has 10 nothing to do with transportation. Okay? And 11 I don't know of anybody that ever did it, but 12 somewhere along the line someone had to. 13 Otherwise it wouldn't be there. But the 14 information that's on there comes under a 15 different set of regulations than 16 transportation. And I will not say that I'm 17 an expert on what they are required to put on 18 consumer products. 19 Q Okay. Let's talk a little about 20 transportation then. MSDSs are not 21 transportation documents, are they? 22 A No. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 180
1 Q 

### They're OSHA documents. 2 A 

### Right. Correct. 3 Q 

### And they're not required to have 4 any transportation information on them, are 5 they? 6 A 

### No. 7 Q 

### Now, also at the end of this MSDS, 8 

### the very last sentence above end of MSDS, it 9 states this product has been classified 10 according to the hazard criteria of the CPR 11 and the MSDS contains all of the information 12 requiredby the CPR. Did I misread something? 13 Oh, okay. Now, this document was not prepared 14 1n accordance with 49 CFR, was it? 15 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: You have to say 16 yes or no. 17 A 

### No. 18 Q 

### Let's talk a bit about the other 19 MSDS that you testified about earlier today in 20 Exhibit C-34. Do you still have C-34 in front 21 of you? 22 A 

### Which one is 34? NEAL 

### R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com L----------------------------
--------------- --------------

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• 181 1 Q It's the really thick packet of 2 MSDSs. 3 A Oh, that's all the MSDSs? 4 Q Yeah. All right. The first one 5 you discussed was a Loctite marine epoxy 6 res1n, which 1s page one of forty and spans 7 five pages. What's the shipping name of this 8 itern? 9 A For air? It's listed as an 10 environmentally hazardous substance, liquid 11 NOS, epoxy resin. 12 Q All right. So this isn't an 13 adhesive like you would name the epoxy that 14 we're talking about. 15 A No. 16 Q Okay. And this document also has 17 a similar disclaimer at the very end of it, 18 correct? 19 A Well, this particular disclaimer 20 says it's best information, believed to be 21 reliable. But they're not responsible if you 22 don't use it in the manner in which it's NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 182 1 

### intended. 2 Q 

### The disclaimer is similar to the 3 last one we talked about, correct? 4 A 

### I'd say it was a little different. 5 Q 

### Can you tell me, 1n 

### the 6 transportation informationon this particular 7 MSDS, why is there a difference betweenground 8 and air transportation? 9 A 

### There's a lot of differences 10 between ground and air. Air limits

-- in your 11 hazmat table on 101, it limits the size per 12 package, whereas ground doesn't. Bulk 13 

### containers can go by ground, which you 14 know. There's a lot of differences. You can 15 look at your consumer commodities where by air 16 paperwork is required, but byground it's not. 17 You can look at-- well, let's take-- a prime 18 example that we use in Jack's class a lot is 19 engine starting fluid. Consumer community 20 ORM-D by ground, forbidden for transport by 21 passenger aircraft. So there's a difference 22 

### right there between the two commodities. If NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 183 1 you have a problem in the truck, you pull over 2 to the side of the road. If you have a problem 3 1n an airplane at 30,000 feet, you're stuck. 4 Q Back to my earlier question. Why 5 in this particular MSDS is the information

-- 6 A Different? 7 Q different for ground and air? 8 A Ask the manufacturer. It's the 9 manufacturer's, like a shipper's 10 responsibility, to do things correctly. 11 Q Including marking and labeling 12 their items? 13 A Yes. 14 Q All right. 15 A And as we've established, it's 16 different between surface transport and air 17 transport. 18 Q The next material safety data 19 sheet that you've discussed with Ms. Jones is 20 the hardener for that first epoxy. 21 A Okay. 22 Q It begins at page six NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234·4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005·3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 184
1 A Six. 2 Q of forty. Can you tell me 3 what the shipping name is of this item? 4 A According to section 14, it's 5 polyamine

-- if I can say that right

-- liquid 6 corrosive NOS. 7 Q Okay. So again 8 A And then the technical name. 9 Q not adhesive. 10 A No. 11 Q And aga1n this one contains a 12 disclaimer on the last page much like the last 13 one we just looked at. 14 A Right. It's the same disclaimer. 15 Q As we go through these, can I ask 16 have you -- you actually haven't seen any 17 boxes or containers of these items, have you? 18 A No. And that's not the reason 19 they were pulled. 20 Q And so as we sit here and talk 21 about this, we don't know if they're properly 22 marked and labeledby the manufacturer, do we? NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 185
1 A It's not in question. 2 Q Next MSDS is also another Henkel 3 Technologies MSDS for Loctite plastics bonder 4 epoxy, at page 12. 5 A Uh-huh. (Affirmative) 6 Q Now, on this, under the transport 7 information, it states that at least for 8 groundtransportationthereare exceptions for 9 consumer commodity ORM-D not more than five 10 liters. That's incorrect, isn't it? Do you 11 know? 12 A No. 13 Q And the next MSDS, that's part B 14 of the same epoxy; is that correct? 15 A Uh-huh. (Affirmative) 16 Q Oh. Was that yes, for the record? 17 A Pardon? 18 Q We need yeses or nos. 19 A I said no. 20 Q Oh, okay. 21 A I'm sorry. 22 Q Oh, this is not -- NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 186 1 A I'm 

### 2 Q 

### part B? 3 A I think that was for a previous 4 

### question. I 

### don't remember now. 5 Q 

### All right. So
-- 6 A 

### But 7 Q 

### this next one that we're 8 

### looking at, that begins at page 17, 

### Loctite 9 

### plastics bonder epoxy part B
-- 10 A 

### Correct. 11 Q 

### -- that would be the

-- 12 A 

### Correct. Yes. 13 Q 

### hardener for the previous 14 

### epoxy we just spoke of. 15 A 

### Uh-huh. Yes. 16 Q 

### All right. And in the 17 

### transportation let's see information 18 

### that begins on page 19 

### and carries on to page 19 

### 20, do you agree with me that under 20 transportation ground 49 CFR exceptions 21 

### consumer commodity ORM-D not more than five 22 liters 1s incorrect? NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 186 1 A I'm 

### 2 Q 

### part B? 3 A I think that was for a previous 4 

### question. I 

### don't remember now. 5 Q 

### All right. So
-- 6 A 

### But 7 Q 

### this next one that we're 8 

### looking at, that begins at page 17, 

### Loctite 9 

### plastics bonder epoxy part B
-- 10 A 

### Correct. 11 Q 

### -- that would be the

-- 12 A 

### Correct. Yes. 13 Q 

### hardener for the previous 14 

### epoxy we just spoke of. 15 A 

### Uh-huh. Yes. 16 Q 

### All right. And in the 17 

### transportation let's see information 18 

### that begins on page 19 

### and carries on to page 19 201 

### do you agree with me that under 20 transportation ground 49 CFR exceptions 21 

### consumer commodity ORM-D not more than five 22 liters 1s incorrect? NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 187
1 A No. 2 Q Do you know if it's incorrect? 3 A No. 4 Q And again we have yet another 5 disclaimer at the bottom of the MSDS. 6 A Right. 7 Q Page 21 8 A Uh-huh. Yes. 9 Q which is the next Henkel 10 Corporation MSDS for Loctite one-minute epoxy 11 instant m1x. Let's take a look at the 12 transportation information on this one, which 13 is at page 24 of 40. 14 A Yes. I'm there. 15 Q All right. Again under domestic 16 groundtransport, it states consumercommodity 17 ORM-D not more than one liter. And then 18 further on down it skips to class A, packing 19 group three, more than four liters. Do you 20 agree with me that that's an inconsistency? 21 We're missing information for between one and 22 four liters? NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 188 1 A Offhand, I would say it appears 2 such. 3 Q But you don't know? 4 A Stuff's not being shipped by air. 5 These weren't pulled for an investigation. 6 Q All right. Let's look at the next 7 MSDS. It looks like a lot of these are Henkel 8 Corporation MSDSs. You were the one that 9 pulled these? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Is there a particular reason you 12 went with Henkel? 13 A No. I think I just went in with 14 epox1es MSDS for a search and those were the 15 first ones that came up. I could have spent 16 more time and pulled more manufacturers, I'm 17 sure, but I have a lot of things to do. 18 Q All right. This one is for 19 it's page 26 of 40 of Exhibit C-34, product 20 name Loctite gel epoxy-resin. Can you tell me 21 what the proper shipping name is of this item? 22 A For ground, not regulated. And NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 189
1 

### then it's an environmentally hazardous 2 substance. 3 Q 

### Okay. 4 A 

### Liquid NOS. 5 Q 

### Again not adhesive. 6 A 

### Correct. 7 Q 

### All right. And

-- 8 A 

### Yes. 9 Q 

### again there's another 10 disclaimer on this one as well? Much like the 11 

### other ones we were looking at? 12 A Yes. 13 Q 

### All right. The next MSDS begins 14 

### at page 31 of 40. Again a Henkel product, 15 Loctite gel epoxy. This is the hardener for 16 the previous MSDS. 17 A 

### Uh-huh. (Affirmative) 18 Q 

### Is that correct? 19 A 

### Correct. Yes. 20 Q 

### All right. And what's the proper 21 shipping name for this one? 22 A 

### It is amines liquid corrosive NOS.
NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 190 1 Q Once more not an adhesive? 2 A Yes. 3 Q Once more contains a disclaimer 4 much like all the others? 5 A Yes. 6 Q Next MSDS is West System, Inc. for 7 205 fast hardener. Can you tell me what the 8 proper shipping name is for this item? 9 A Poly amines liquid corrosive NOS. 10 Q Okay. Once more we're not talking 11 about an adhesive, correct? 12 A Correct. 13 Q And let's take a look at the 14 disclaimer on the last page of this one, on 15 page 39 of 40. This is very similar to the 16 one for Pro-Poxy 400, isn't it? It states 17 this information is furnished without 18 warranty, expressedor-implied, except that it 19 is accurate to the best knowledge of West 20 System, Inc. The data on this sheet 1s 21 related only to the specific material 22 designatedhere. West System, Inc. assumes no NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 191 1 legal responsibility for use or reliance upon 2 these data, correct? 3 A Yes. That's what it says. 4 Q Do you still have Exhibit C-26 in 5 front of you, which are your notes? 6 A Yes. 7 Q If I could just find my notes on 8 it, we'll be all set. This document is 9 undated. Do you recall the date you took 10 these notes? 11 A On these particular notes right 12 now? No. I'm
-- normally notes like this 13 lead to something being typed up. But
-- 14 Q What do you mean by tightened up? 15 A In other words, I woVld go back to 16 the office and type up a record

-- 17 Q Oh, typed up. 18 A of interview. 19 Q I'm sorry. I thought you said 20 tightened up. 21 A Oh, I'm sorry. Typed up. 22 Q Okay. Who's Chad Wilts (ph)? NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISlANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 192
1 A All right. There was a line. I 2 started out I called it Parsons and stuff 3
-- to talk to them about the shipping. In 4 other words, he was the one that put me in 5 touch with Dexter. So that's really not part 6 of this. And that was the phone number with 7 Parsons. 8 Q Okay. I was thinking for a minute 9 it was the Chad Wilts who works downstairs 10 here. 11 A No. It was -- yeah. It was -- 12 these

-- the paper from where I went -- yeah. 13 Q All right. Now, it states that

-- 14 underneath the line there's a phone number 15 that says 271- 2907. Do you know whose phone 16 number that is? 17 A I believe that 1s Dexheimer's. 18 Q Okay. So Mr. Dexheimer's phone 19 number? 20 A Uh-huh. (Affirmative) 21 Q All right. And underneath his 22 name and forgive me if I mis-speak. This NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 193 1 

### document's not a great document. Looked 49 2 CFR. Couldn't find. 3 A 

### Right. 4 Q 

### What

-- 5 A 

### He looked into 49 CFR to see if he 6 could find Pro-Poxy 400. Could not find it as 7 

### a proper shipping name. Okay? An epoxy is 8 

### not a proper shipping name. The proper 9 shipping name for epoxies would be adhesives. 10 All right. Now, I don't take shorthand. I'm 11 

### not a stenographer. But when someone's talking 12 

### and you're talking to them. And you're going 13 to make a document later on, I take notes as 14 best I can. It's kind of an abbreviated 15 shorthand. 16 Q 

### Now, you said the proper shipping 17 

### name for epoxies is adhesive. But we just 18 went through a whole bunch of epoxies 19 A 

### Well, on this particular one. 20 Q 

### Okay. So there 21 A 

### All right? 22 Q 

### there could be any number of NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 194 1 

### shop 2 A 

### Again

-- 3 Q 

### -- shipping names. 4 A 

### Again these were pulled not 5 because they were adhesives. But because as 6 you had said to us earlier, that epoxies 1s 7 not a proper shipping name. Not all epoxies 8 

### are hazardous, which is true. But a lot of 9 epoxies are. And that's the only reason these 10 

### were pulled. So no further investigation was 11 

### done on any of these products, other than the 12 

### fact that the MSDS says that they are 13 

### regulated. And the MSDSs produced by the 14 

### manufacturer of those products. 15 Q 

### Could you read for me what the 16 

### very bottom of the notes say? 17 A 

### It's hard. Let me see. It looks 18 

### like freight procedures for job and store in 19 

### warehouse. It looks like there was a date 20 there, when it was -- it looks like what it 21 

### was referring to is that theirprocedures were 22 

### they were purchased the freight NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005·3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 195 1 purchased for job and stored in warehouse

-- 2 the FAA's warehouse. In other words, that was 3 where he was talking about that the item was 4 purchased

-- the Pro- Poxy from Alaska Sand 5 and Gravel, stored 1n their warehouse until 6 such time as they needed some, and then it was 7 pulled to be shipped. 8 Q Okay. Let me have you take a look 9 at Exhibit C-22, TGI Freight's

-- 10 A Okay. The first letter? 11 Q -- letter. 12 A Okay. 13 Q All right. And is this the letter 14 you received from Mr. Clark? 15 A Yes. 16 Q All right. The earlier you 17 testified that when Mr. Clark sent you this 18 letter, this letter stated that he was going 19 to take full responsibility for the shipment. 20 Where in this letter does it say that? 21 A All right. I wasn't reading it 22 when I said that. It just says he represents NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 196 1 that their corporation is a dangerous goods 2 agent for their shipments and requests that 3 all correspondence go to him. Now, I think it 4 was implied more than said. 5 Q But not actually said. All right. 6 Earlier you were also testifying about how the 7 epoxy got to Alaska Sand and Gravel. And 8 Alaska Sand and Gravel represented to you that 9 it came 1n by barge, correct? 10 A Correct. 11 Q All right. And you never had any 12 discussions with the manufacturer of how it 13 got from the manufacturer to the barge, did 14 you? 15 A No. 16 Q Okay. And when you were at Alaska 17 Sand and Gravel, did you have them provide you 18 with a copy of the original bill of lading? 19 A No. 20 Q Did you have them provide you with 21 a copy of the delivery receipt? 22 A No.
NEAL

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• 197
1 Q 

### Did you ask to see either one of 2 them? 3 A No. 4 Q 

### Can I have you take a look at 5 Exhibit C-3, please? Which is the Alaska Air 6 

### Cargo airway bill 402733719873. I 

### think 7 earlier you testified that the typed up -- 8 this matches Exhibit C-2, which is the 9 handwritten one that gets filled out, and then 10 Alaska Airlines types 1n the information and 11 prints out this one. 12 A 

### Yes. 13 Q 

### Okay. So this

-- the typed out 14 one, C-3, is the one that actually gets 15 shipped with the materials, correct? 16 A 

### Or electronically sent to the 17 other station, yes. 18 Q 

### Okay. Or electronically sent. 19 All right. And on C-3, specifically directly 20 above the signature line, which states Alaska 21 Airlines, there are two boxes. One states 22 this shipment does not containdangerous goods
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• 198 1 

### and the other states this shipment does 2 containdangerous goods. Neither are checked, 3 are they? 4 A 

### On this particular one, no. And 5 why I can't tell you? Because I've seen their 6 procedures. And on the screen there's a place 7 where a person signs and checks on a little 8 screen. 9 Q 

### But this was the one that Alaska 10 

### Airlines provided you, isn't it? 11 A 

### It looks like it, yes. 12 Q 

### Okay. And there's no signature on 13 

### this document, is there? 14 A 

### There generally is not. Sometimes 15 

### I think I might have seen some with 16 

### electronic signature. I can't say for certain 17 

### at the moment. But the worksheet is signed 18 

### and it says no hazmat on it. 19 Q 

### C
-- let me have you take a look 20 at C-8, which 1s the hazardous materials 21 

### incident report. I believe you testified it 22 was from Alaska Airlines. Can you tell me NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 199 1 

### where in the regulations this report 1s 2 required? 3 A 

### It's required for under the 4 reporting for generally spills or when there 5 

### 1s a diversion of an aircraft or something 6 

### more major. However, it is Alaska Airlines' 7 

### company policy that one be done for all 8 

### undeclared shipments as well. 9 Q 

### I think

-- 10 A 

### The original intent for the form 11 

### is to go to FEMSA and

-- like some of the 12 

### blocks back here are really concerned with UN 13 

### packaging. And what they really want to know 14 

### is if UN 

### packaging fails and someone was hurt 15 

### and things like this. But Alaska Airlines 16 

### does it even when it's not required. 17 

### MS. HOZUBIN: Your Honor, move to 18 

### strike the response as non-responsive. Mr. 19 

### Deitz is not an Alaska Airlines employee and 20 can't speak to their intentions. 21 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Overruled. You 22 asked the question. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 200 1 Q 

### The

-- page -- on the first page, 2 under number 18, can you tell me what packing 3 group is listed? 4 A 

### They did not put a packing group 5 

### ln. 6 Q 

### Oh. And back to my earlier 7 

### question. My question was where ln the 8 regulations is this report required? Can you 9 tell me what regulation

-- 10 A 

### Off the top of my head, under

-- 11 

### there lS a sectionunder reporting. Under 49. 12 But I can't glve you the chapter and verse. 13 Q 

### All right. And on the second page 14 of this document, at paragraph 26B, can you 15 tell me the packaging type that's listed for 16 this? 17 A 

### 4G, fiberboard box. 18 Q 

### That's incorrect, isn't it? 19 A 

### No. The white boxes were 20 fiberboard boxes. They're not saying the 21 tubes. They're going with the outer box that 22 they have there. Now, I've never filled one NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 201 1 

### of these out. I know they're electronically 2 filled out, so most of it's drop down menus. 3 Q 

### Do you still have the picture 1n 4 front of you for C-9? Exhibit C-9
-- excuse 5 

### me. 6 A 

### Let me see. Exhibit C-9. 7 Q 

### It looks like this one. 8 A 

### Well, I'm sure -- oh, there it is. 9 Got to them. 10 Q 

### Can you clarify for me. Earlier 11 

### you testified that this was the entire 12 shipment that was sent over by TGI to Alaska 13 Airlines that you 14 A 

### The entire shipment on that airway 15 bill. 16 Q 

### On that airway bill. Okay. So 

### 17 this was not the actual entire shipment? 18 A 

### The other items were on different 19 a1rway bills, which makes them different 20 shipments. 21 Q 

### Now, you state on here that you 22 took the photo on February 19th, 2010 at 1200 NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 202 1 hours. 2 A Yes. 3 Q Does your camera have a date and 4 time function? 5 A It does. 6 Q Is there a reason the date and 7 time aren't appearing on these photos? 8 A It doesn't print out. It's not 9 always it does have it. 10 Q And I
-- 11 A I'm not sure. 12 Q I ask

-- 13 A Now, when I 14 Q I'm sorry. 15 A I've seen date and time on when 16 I've checked pictures in

-- going through in 17 the camera. But when you copy and paste the 18 photograph from the camera to a document, it 19 does not print out. 20 Q I ask because on Exhibit C-9 21 through C-12, you have each of these 22 photographs was taken on February 19, 2010 at NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 203
1 

### exactly 1200 hours. Now, either you're very 2 fast 3 A 

### Well, 1200 hours is when I 4 

### okay. What I do when I go there and 5 

### perhaps I 

### should have used the word 6 approximately and maybe I will from now on. 7 All right. When I go there, I sit down with 8
-- 

### or I sit down my phone, which has got the 9 

### best time available. Better than a watch 10 because it's, you know,**li~ked.** 

### And so I 11 

### write the date down when I'm there. And I 12 open up the phone. And when I'm taking the 13 pictures, I write the time down. 14 Q 

### Okay. So it's approximately time, 15 not exactly the specific time that you 16 actually took those photos. 17 A 

### Yes. 18 Q 

### Okay. Now, with respect to your 19 training history, do you still have that in 20 front of you? C-30? 21 A 

### Yep. 22 Q 

### In reviewing this, I noticed that
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• 204 1 you hadn't had any formal training since 2007; 2 is that accurate? 3 A Yes. 4 Q Okay. And I had a question about 5 6 A We've had we have had 7 conferences where we've gone to. But there's 8 been

-- there was one where the entire nation 9 -- all the hazmat people went to Florida. And 10 then there was a couple where just us -- we 11 went down to Seattle. And we probably would 12 have done that this

-- we were scheduled to do 13 that again this year. They were -- the hazmat 14 conference where you get there and just do it 15 1n person. However, with the GSA debacle, 16 funds were pulled for travel. 17 JUDGE GOODWIN: Oh. You were a 18 victim of that? The other thing, counsel, to 19 save you some time. The FAA has been strapped 20 for training funds for years. And it's 21 well, I won't don't get me started, but 22 1n addition to what he said, the whole NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 205 1 department went through it. We had to justify 2 any training trips over Xnumber of days. And 3 I forget what it was. Because we filed a 4 report only to find out that the number of 5 days that we had was so small that they 6 weren't looking. It was a congressional 7 inquiry. So the stuff hit the fan about two 8 weeks after the GSA debacle. And Congress 9 started asking questions. So you'll find you 10 do any government work, that every government 11 agency is going to give you the same answer. 12 It's-- well, what's interesting is Vegas has 13 the best rates, but heaven forbid you go 14 there. 15 MS. HOZUBIN: Well, the ninth 16 circuit did get slammed for going to Hawaii, 17 so -- 18 JUDGE GOODWIN: But they went, 19 didn't they? 20 Q All right. So back to your 21 training. The training that's listed on this 22 document, which is Exhibit C-30, most of the NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISlANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 206 1 

### training that you did here was on what you 2 refer to as IVTs, which are the interactive 3 A 

### Correct. Video training. 4 Q 

### -- video

-- okay

-- training. So 5 that's something you wouldn't need to travel 6 

### for. You just go and hook up to a computer 7 somewhere and

-- 8 A 

### Except that they do send the 9 instructors to Oklahoma City where the studio 10 lS 

### that they film and transmit it. 11 Q 

### Okay. But it's a lot cheaper than 12 

### sending everybody to Florida or 13 A 

### Yes. 14 Q 

### Yeah. Okay. Now, walk me through 15 this history a little bit. The first column 16 states item ID. Is that the name of the course 17 or the name of the event that you're doing? 18 A 

### Well, that would be the course ID 19 number. 20 Q 

### Okay. 21 A 

### And then the title would be what 22 the course was. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 207 1 Q All right. And there's a date on 2 the first column. For example, the first 3 entry here says course FAA 30200432. 4 A Revised. 5 Q Revised. 6 A As of that date. 7 Q I'm sorry? 8 A Well, it says REV, is for a 9 revision date. 10 Q Is it revision date or rev1ew 11 date? 12 A Well, I don't

-- I'm not sure. 13 Q Okay. And it's got 12/7/10, 3:14 14 p.m. eastern standard time. 15 A It must have been reviewed because 16 looking at the deal

-- well, the completion 17 date and then when it would have been 18 reviewed, which 1s the date after. 19 Q Okay. So then the next the next 20 column is for title. And the next column says 21 scheduled offering ID. And then finally we 22 have the completion date that you just NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISlANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 208 1 

### mentioned, which on that states it would have 2 been December lOth, 2010 at 6:33p.m. eastern 3 time; is that correct? 4 A 

### That's what it says. 5 Q 

### All right. Now, let me have you 6 take a look at page 507 of this document, 7 please. 8 A 

### Okay. 9 Q 

### With respect to -- let's see -- 10 I'm looking at one, two, three, four

-- fifth 11 entry down states course FAA 57200 REV 12 10/24/2003, 12:00a.m. easterntime. Andit's 13 titled Air Transportation of Hazardous 14 Materials Recurrent. And then it has for the 15 completion date

-- 16 A 

### Incomplete. But if you see the 17 same course listed right below it

-- 18 Q 

### Well, I'm actually looking at the 19 course right below it. Sorry. I'm looking at 20 the one that's entitled the-- yes. The one 21 right below it is the one I'm looking at -- 22 the August 12th, 2004. It states 12:00 p.m. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 209 

### 1 eastern time as the completion date. So if it 2 was reviewed

-- 3 A 

### Well, I don't know what

-- 4 Q 

### I'm confused. Because
-- 5 A I
-- okay. I'll be honest with 6 you. I printed it out. I don't write the 7 software. I don't review it. I don't revise 8 it. I don't do any of that. I take it. Send 9 

### in the course. We get notified that we're 10 

### having it. And they generally offer the 11 course at two different times or two different 12 days a lot of times. You know, one for 13 generally the east coast. One for the west 14 coast. And then we get it set up. We go to 15 one of the classrooms downstairs. And they 16 have little boxes where we sign in with our 17 Social Security number and stuff like that. 18 

### And we can flag it. We can ask questions. 19 

### They can ask us questions. So with a live 20 video feed. And that's what it is. That's why 21 it's called interactive video training. 22 Q 

### All right. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 210 1 A 

### Now, I cannot tell you what the 2 other stuff lS. 

### I can tell you what the course 3 lS 

### and that I passed it. That's pretty much 4 

### it. And the rest of the stuff is used by 5 other people. And for what, I don't know. 6 Q 

### So you can't testify as to what 7 time you took any of these courses, how long 8 they took, when they ended, that sort of 9 thing? 10 A 

### The IVTs are generally three 11 hours. 12 Q 

### But with this document, we 13 shouldn't believe that you started it at 8:00 14 p.m. Alaska time and finished it at 8:00a.m. 15 Alaska time, correct? 16 A 

### I wouldn't. 17 Q 

### Okay. Also, earlier you were 18 testifying about your investigation into this 19 matter. And a lot of what you testified, you 20 said you would have gotten an email. You 21 would have done this. Generally you go into 22 the office. You don't have a specific NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 211 1 

### recollection of this investigation, do you? 2 A 

### Well, I can definitely say once I 3 

### was g1ven a copy of the email, that that's how 4 I 

### was notified on this one. 5 Q 

### Okay. But you don't 6 A 

### And 90 percent or 90-some percent 7 of the time, that's how we get it. I 

### have a 8 case that's pending where I 

### was at Alaska 9 Airlines looking at one and UPS dropped off a 10 package. And they X-rayed it and lo and 11 

### behold, they found some others. So I 

### never 12 got an email on that one because I 

### was present 13 

### and they brought it to my attention. There 14 have been some where my actual notification 15 was a telephone call. Especially if something 16 happened over the weekend, I 

### get a call on my 17 cell phone-- hey, we've got this. And then 18 they'll generally send a follow-up email with 19 the notification. 20 Q 

### Well, let's back up a bit. Do you 21 have a specific recollection, as you sit here 22 

### now, of receiving that email? NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 212
1 A 

### Well, I can state I received it 2 and that's what I acted upon. To say a 3 specific recollection two years ago that I was 4 

### eating a Snickers bar, drinking coffee, and at 5 10:30 

### a.m. this email came in, no. Because 6 

### generally what happens is a lot of times the 7 

### emails

-- I don't know what I'd have to 8 

### look again at what time of day it was shipped. 9 

### We may not get the email till the following 10 

### day. If it happens in the morning we-- we'll 11 get it right away that afternoon and we may 12 not look at it till the next day. 13 Q 

### Okay. So it's fair to say that 14 

### your recollection of events of your 15 investigation are based on the documents and 16 your report and not what you specifically 17 recall from your memory; is that correct? 18 A 

### Yes. 19 Q 

### Okay. 20 

### MS. HOZUBIN: Your Honor, I'm 21 about to go into a whole other thing that's 22 

### going to take longer than the remaining 24
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• 213 1 

### minutes. So if

-- 2 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 3 

### MS. HOZUBIN:
-- we want to break 4 for today 5 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Yeah. What's your 6 sense on how long your case is going to take 7 tomorrow? And I won't hold you to it. 8 A All day. 9 

### MS. HOZUBIN: I figure I probably 10 

### have about an hour left with Mr. Deitz. 11 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 12 

### MS. HOZUBIN: And then our case 1n 13 

### total will probably just take a few hours. 14 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Then I'll 15 

### just go ahead and-- I've got an 8:00 

### o'clock 16 

### flight. What I'm trying to decide is whether 17 

### to bump the flight to Saturday. But this 18 

### gentleman to my right and I both have to be in 19 

### Juneau on Monday, so -- and he just informed 20 we can't drive there, so -- 21 

### MS. JONES: No. 22 

### MS. HOZUBIN: No. No. You can't. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 214
1 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 2 

### MS. HOZUBIN: Ms. Jones, do you 3 have any more witnesses after Mr. Deitz? 4 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, I don't want 5 to -- what I
-- in terms of what you told me, 6 

### even without talking to Ms. Jones, you know, 7 

### we're good until 4:30 tomorrow, so 8 

### MS. HOZUBIN: Okay. I think we 9 

### can have it done. 10 A 

### 4:30? 11 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 12 MS. HOZUBIN: Yeah. 13 JUDGE GOODWIN: 4:30 tomorrow 14 afternoon, so -- why? Do you have a -- 15 A 

### Oh, no. No. No. When you said 16 4:30 17 

### JUDGE GOODWIN:
-- do you have a 18 flight to Juneau tomorrow? 19 A 

### -- does that mean we're meeting 20 here at 4:30 in the morning? You know 21 MS. JONES: No. No. No. 22 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: No. That's what
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• 215 1 time the plane's leave here. 2 MS. JONES: I'm not. I'm not. 3 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. What we're 4 going to do is we're going to go off the 5 record. Any witness

-- potential witness and 6 the current witness is instructed not to 7 discuss your testimony with anybody prior to 8 the conclusion of the hearing. All right. 9 We'll go off the record. 10 (Whereupon, the proceedings went 11 off the record to continue the next day.) 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 239 C E R T I F I C A T E
This is to certify that the foregoing transcript
In the matter of: TGI Freight
Before: US DOT
Date: 09-20-12
Place: Anchorage, AK

was duly recorded and accurately transcribed unqer my direction; further, that said transcript is a true and accurate record of the proceedings.

(202)234-4433 Court Reporter

NEALR. GROSS COURTREPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODE ISLANDAVE.,N.W. WASHINGTON,D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com