Note: The output shown below is from the 

Communication Access Realtime Translation 

(CART) system used in the subcommittee meeting 

and is unedited. The CART system was used to 

provide an accommodation to persons with 

hearing loss and persons who are deaf, and was 

streamed in real-time and available to the public 

on the internet during the meeting. 

U.S. Access Board

Friday, April 11, 2014

Rail Vehicles Access Advisory Committee

Boarding and Alighting Subcommittee meeting

>> BILLY ALTOM: I can tell this is Friday everybody 

jumped right to it at attention.

>> DENNIS CANNON: I could have Teddy bark for you.

>> BILLY ALTOM: I hope you enjoyed lunch today, 

again what a beautiful day outside. The next order of 

business is we are going to move into your 

Subcommittee on Boarding & Alighting we need a chair 

for this committee. One second. What we want to do 

we are going to do real quick then entertain questions. 

Right now, RVAAC members in the room each 
organization has one vote for who they would like to be 

the chair of this committee we are going to vote about. 

We are going to give each of the nominees an 

opportunity to speak for a few minutes why they would 

like to have the position then what we will do is Paul has 

some small paper ballots for us whenever we get 

through we will pass out the paper ballots and take a 

vote and tally those and find out who the lucky person 

is. We will also take you could nominate yourself from 

the floor as we will. We are going to have an 

opportunity to do as well.

>> UWE RUTENBERG: Just a thought before we go into 

this. That really relates to all of the subcommittees. In 

the committees that I am chairing we always have a 

co-chair. And the reason for this is when the main chair 

is not available somebody else can take over and there 

is continuity. I don't want to sound like a bureaucrat 

here it might be something that could be available 

because we are all volunteers. And you know, like Blair 

like you are taking this and there might be days where 

you have other priorities or anybody else, and to have 

continuity in the process I think it would be good that 

you have another one to rely on, just a thought.

>> or vice-chair.
>> Billy, I was going to ask is that by default the 

alternate for that person. Or is that too much

>> BILLY ALTOM: Would that be? Let's look at our the 

official keepers of the rules. If --

>> MARSHA MAZZ: In the absence of Lisa, who is, you 

know, one of the official keepers, I would think that you 

are electing a person to chair not an organization. But if 

that person wants someone to sit in for them for a 

meeting I don't see why they can't pick somebody and 

say, could you you know herd the cats for me at this 

meeting?

>> BILLY ALTOM: I like that. Did everyone hear that 

in agreement with that? If the chair has to be out of a 

meeting they can ask someone to sit in for them for that 

particular meeting does that sound reasonable for folks? 

Awesome, thank you. Also, if you are -- if your 

alternates can be chair of committee I wanted to make 

sure folks knew that as well.

>> What is the role of PAX and super PAX?

>> BILLY ALTOM: Alternates can self apply, that's 

what I meant I may not have said that. But as far as PAX 

and super PAX I prefer those checks to be paid out to 

cash.

 (LAUGHTER)
>> I was going to bring up the stipend for the chair.

>> BILLY ALTOM: Exactly.

 (LAUGHTER)

>> All right. Currently double my money. Currently 

we have Marilyn Golden, Ed Hoff and Stanton Saucier put 

their names in the hat any other folks in the room that 

would like self promote themselves.

>> BILLY ALTOM: I see Ed has his name up

>> ED HOFF: I would like to take my name down from 

being nominated to support of Marilyn Golden as chair.

>> BILLY ALTOM: Ed takes his name down. Anybody 

else that would like to put their name in?

>> STANTON SAUCIER: I will do the same. So Marilyn 

is the chair.

 (LAUGHTER)

 (APPLAUSE)

>> BILLY ALTOM: Marilyn by default.

Marilyn I appoint you as chair of the subcommittee.

>> MARILYN GOLDEN: The problem is when I am not 

hear.

>> BILLY ALTOM: Awesome congratulations Marilyn 

by default you are the new chair. (inaudible)

>> BILLY ALTOM: Congratulations though.

>> MARILYN GOLDEN:
>> if congress could learn from us to get things 

done.

>> MARILYN GOLDEN: I don't know what to do.

>> MELISSA ANDERSON: I put the agenda together.

>> MARILYN GOLDEN: Thanks.

>> MELISSA ANDERSON: If we want to move forward 

with that agenda I can kind of run things along and you 

can we can do it together sort of or it's all yours you can 

take the agenda and run.

>> MARILYN GOLDEN: I will help you with herding. 

>> Melissa Anderson: Okay. I think everybody should 

have a copy of the meeting agenda. And I guess 

anybody have comments or objections to the agenda 

that was sent out. Okay. Approved. We selected the 

subcommittee chair and thank you very much Marilyn 

for volunteering. Much appreciated. I wanted to go 

over as we get started here, the scoping for the 

boarding and alighting that we put together just so that 

we are all on the same page when we start off. I am 

going to read through it real quickly. The scope of the 

subcommittee is to review the current requirements for 

accessible biting and alighting which were issued in 

September 1991 not updated since that time. The 

objective of the subcommittee is to recommend for post 
revisions to update improve or expand the scoping and 

technical criteria in order to ensure acceptable level of 

access for individuals with disabilities on rapid rail light 

rail commuter rail inter-city rail and other vehicles and 

systems covered under the board's current guidelines. 

These recommendations will be based on current 

regulations and consideration of changes taking place in 

vehicle structure and the -- and going too fast for you? 

Sorry thought about that. The subcommittee will 

address the following items: Times of devices and 

methods available and appropriate for boarding and 

alighting on rapid rail, light rail, commuter rail, 

inter-city rail, and other vehicles and systems covered 

under the board's current guidelines. Permanent versus 

temporary installation versus platform-based devices 

and back up methods in case of mechanical failure. 

Level boarding, the level boarding definition and 

evaluation of use by different car types for light and 

heavy and inter-city trains at level and sometimes 

shared platforms. Wheelchair lift capacity, platform 

barriers, self operation. Ramp and bridgeplate slope 

and railing requirements. On board storage and 

deployment area requirements. Gaps between vehicle 

and platform and the potential for gap filler devices. 
Exterior doors and doorways including minimum width 

adjacent handrails and access to bi-level platforms and 

other boarding and alighting issues that may become 

important during subcommittee discussions. These all 

came -- it doesn't include every single detail of the 

issues list we started with originally I kind of glopped 

them all together we will make sure we address all of 

the issues individually. The timetable is, we want to 

have this completed -- we want to have -- complete 

our review and make recommendations to the board by 

October for consideration of the full committee. I said 

October and I don't have it in front of me I have an old 

copy. We still say -- yep by October. So, anybody have 

any comments or questions on the scope that we have 

handed out. I think everybody had an opportunity to 

see it. Previously. Okay. So, we wanted to start the 

discussion on boarding and alighting. And with maybe 

a review of the current laws and regulations and then 

discuss boarding methods and appropriate modes and 

discuss level boarding ramps bridgeplates and lifts. I 

think before we can -- before we can make 

recommendations on the to move forward we really 

need to have good understanding of where we are now. 

I put together a list and it was just a copy and paste out 
of the -- out of the -- out of the out. Regulations. And 

I put it together by mode because that's the way the 

current regulations are designed. And they each go 

through the same -- I am going to cheat because Paul 

was kind enough before this ever really started to put 

together a spreadsheet so I can have them all together. 

But most of them included, we got the clear width of the 

doorways our boarding alighting will include working 

with the doorways. So, we have got whatever device or 

method we board the plan and we have to look at the 

actual entrance into the train. So rapid rail, rapid rail we 

have a clear width of 30 inches.

>> 30?

>> MELISSA ANDERSON: Wait a minute.

>> 32.

>> You want to come on this side of the table?

>> MELISSA ANDERSON: Aisle width is minimum 30. 

Okay. 32 I'm sorry guys.

 (LAUGHTER)

>> MELISSA ANDERSON: Do you want to do this by 

mode or do you want to go through --

(Discussion off record.)

>> DENNIS CANNON: Can I say something?
>> MELISSA ANDERSON: Yes.

>> DENNIS CANNON: This is Dennis. We originally 

divided it up ack scoring to -- according to modes in 

part so there would be like a stand alone document so if 

you were doing computer rail you could grab the 

commuter rail section and not have to worry about 

anything. But there is lots of duplication. And in doing 

the NPRM for buses, we decided to put sort of all of the 

rail things into one section. So, and a lot of people 

complained about the duplication. And it would be far 

easier to have a set of regulations that apply to 

everything and then little subcategories or subpoints 

that are specific to a particular kind of -- a particular 

mode. The other issues are and one that you haven't 

mentioned is the number of doors that have to be 

accessible. Because in a rapid rail it's basically all but in 

inner-city rail it's only one. Because that one is next to 

the seating area and that seating area has to have 

accessible route to the restroom as well. You don't have 

restrooms on rapid rail or light rail cars they are slightly 

different. One of the issues is how many doors are 

going to be accessible quote unquote. And meet the 

regulations. And then what you have to get to from that 

door. In the case of rapid rail and light rail you have to 
get to a space that you can fit the footprint, and we 

don't care where it is. It can be right inside the door if 

you want. But in inner-city rail you have different issues 

because of the restroom. But I don't think there is any 

reason to segregate all of the modes separately at this

point. So, I would suggest that maybe we don't -- we 

don't want to follow the same format we have lots of 

complaints.

>> MELISSA ANDERSON: I find it pretty tedious 

putting this together you are copying and pasting the 

same thing over and over. I don't know, I mean we kind 

of mentioned this before and format will probably be 

decided later of course it could be recommendation. 

But do you guys want to tackle doorways or tackle 

devices and methods? Marlin do you have --

>> MARILYN GOLDEN: I would suggest devices and 

methods because that's going to drive the doorway 

issues.

>> MELISSA ANDERSON: Okay. David?

>> David Nelson: Okay. I wanted to make sure I am 

looking for the agenda are we going to be including 

visual alerts as part of this group or no?

>> MELISSA ANDERSON: That would be under 

communications.
>> David Nelson: I mean for example like doors for a 

red light to go off when a door is closing kind of thing.

>> MELISSA ANDERSON: That probably falls under the 

communication section and how that's addressed 

visually and audibly.

>> David Nelson: Okay.

>> MELISSA ANDERSON: In the end, all of our 

committees are going to have to kind of mesh together 

and be coordinated. So, we will work with them and we 

can always, you know, everybody can always sit in on 

one of the subcommittee meetings.

>> Blair Slaughter: I was going to say so we don't 

lose it, if we can put that in there as an asterisk or 

something so we don't lose it down the path.

>> DENNIS CANNON: It's part of the current 

regulation.

>> Blair Slaughter: Okay.

>> MELISSA ANDERSON: Yes.

>> Blair Slaughter: It's been mentioned so it is there 

right?

>> MARSHA MAZZ: Melissa if you don't do it buy rail 

type you have eggs exceptions

>> MELISSA ANDERSON: There won't be

>> MARILYN GOLDEN: Within a general category of 
component.

>> MELISSA ANDERSON: We would have doorways, 

you know, 32 inches, and then there were -- if there 

were one that was 34 or 42 or something it would be 

called out separately so it might be 32 

inter -- inter-city, commuter. Yes we can work through 

the format later.

>> MARILYN GOLDEN: All right.

>> MELISSA ANDERSON: But that's a good point go 

ahead Dennis.

>> DENNIS CANNON: I want to throw out a proposal 

for discussion that I think -- we had on the current 

regulation there is a lot of things about gaps between 

new cars and new stations, new cars and old stations 

old cars and new stations. And it got very confusing we 

had a chart. I have a separate proposal which we did for 

the bus and that is to simply state in how many doors 

have to comply with we can deal with later. Simply state 

wherever either of the condition of the following 

conditions are met. The gap is larger than two inmuchs 

horizontal gap, and or the vertical difference between 

the floor and the platform is more than 5/8 inches a 

boarding device shall be used, period. And then we can 

define later what the various categories of boarding 
devices are, ramps bridge plates lifts whatever. And 

then decide if there is a priority for how we want to 

address them we can start with that. But it basically 

says we don't care whether it's a new car old car new 

station, whatever if the gap is bigger than two inches 

which is what we have for the buses, and we know this 

is doable today, because MARTA and WMATA has done 

it it is a simple fix it can be done with retrofit. You have 

to provide something. If less than two inches on people 

movers with a half inch whatever you don't need to do 

anything you can roll on.

>> MELISSA ANDERSON: And that is the current 

regulation go ahead Gary.

>> Gary Talbot: Thank you Melissa Gary Talbot 

Amtrak. I would just offer to the committee, I don't 

know where the right place is, but I would just offer to 

the committee we have a unique opportunity because 

our contractor RLE working with us on the gap 

mitigation devices as well as redesign of bridge plates is 

here in -- we are good enough to bring three over and 

so we have those that people can kind of kick the tires 

on or look at whenever you think is appropriate they are 

only here for today. And I think Dennis already raised 

some really great points about the existing rulemaking 
on like a bridgeplate and how you know perhaps that 

may need to change some. And I think our designs kind 

of speak to what some of those issues might be. It 

might really be a great opportunity. The other thing 

that I would say is, it will really give you a flavor for less 

than 32 inches which is currently our requirement. 

Which you know regional cars don't have. It will give 

you spatially an idea of how restrictive the current cars 

are and what the 32 would be relative to our opening 

that we have. Just as a suggestion.

>> Okay.

>> MARILYN GOLDEN: I don't know if people think it's 

a good use of the time to take a short break and actually 

look at them? We have -- if we have them at the table 

we should go with it but at the same time I want people 

to take the opportunity to do that so we don't have a 

break I am not sure how to accommodate that. Lunch 

would have been a good time.

>> You are the chair you can demand we have a 

break.

>> MARILYN GOLDEN: -- I know I can I am not sure 

it's the best use of our time.

>> MELISSA ANDERSON: We haven't gotten down the 

path now is as good a time as any. Rather than 
breaking up.

>> MARILYN GOLDEN: How many people haven't 

really seen them? That want to.

>> MELISSA ANDERSON: Let's take 10 minutes 

everybody look at them if you need to break this might 

be the only break you get before we end today.

>> LINDA MARTIN: I'm sorry, this is Linda, what are 

we looking at?

>> MELISSA ANDERSON: The bridgeplates that REL 

had at the Amtrak station yesterday or Wednesday.

>> MARILYN GOLDEN: Prototype Amtrak bridgeplates.

>> CHRISTOPHER HART: And just before everyone 

breaks, keep in mind that the current requirements for 

bridgeplates require a 2 inch lip continuous lip on those 

as we heard yesterday, there is some level of conflict 

with certain types of vehicles in certain types of 

(inaudible). So, bear that in mind when you look at 

these as well.

>> The technical wizards were in dispute about 

whether they need to be higher in the center to 

accommodate vertical gap so I would love to hear all of 

the smart engineers on this committee debate that.

(Short recess taken.)
>> MARILYN GOLDEN: We are going to reconvene. 

What have we learned?

>> They are yellow.

>> MARILYN GOLDEN: All right. Come on back if you 

could please.

>> MELISSA ANDERSON: Okay. Everybody we will get 

started again come back to the table. Play time is over.

>> MARILYN GOLDEN: Paul, have we got the phone 

call going?

>> PAUL BEATTY: Yes.

>> Do we have anybody on the phone? And they are 

there.

>> CHRISTOPHER HART: Come on back guys.

>> MARILYN GOLDEN: Linda and others. Oh, a lot of 

people? Welcome.

>> Yes Linda here sof rei had it muted.

>> MARILYN GOLDEN: Okay. So, we are going to 

focus on the different boarding and alighting 

techniques, and which ones are used by different modes 

of rail. Melissa's suggestion I think it's good it will flesh 

out some of the characteristics of those techniques. 

And I think that on the agenda 5.0 there is a mixture of 

techniques and then there is also some sort of ancillary 

devices that are used with din techniques. So, for 
example -- with different techniques. So, for example 

if the first technique is level boarding Melissa is here 

right? She is around. I was too short to see. Okay. I 

believe you.

Then there is -- I want to skip ramps and bridgeplates 

are used with many times of boarding. I am going to lay 

it out as I know it to cut through and people with take 

issue with the listing that they have if they have issues. 

So, level board something -- level boarding is the way 

to board the regulations give it priority as the best way. 

There is an item here lifts. But there are different kinds 

of lifts. There is car born lifts and station-based lifts

those are two different up ones. And a fourth way of 

boarding is many high platforms. Mini high platforms. 

And a new kind that people is developing New Jersey is 

helping and Gary designed them for Amtrak the setback 

platforms which can have a variety of characteristics.

I think -- and those were not in any order of 

preference or anything like that that was just a list at 

random. And then I think we have a separate list of 

things that are -- I am going to call them amenities or 

ancillary devices that can be used with more than one of 

these kinds of boarding. That would be ramps and 

bridgeplates and the other one we termed -- help me 
out Ed your edges? Your edge things? Retractable 

edges. Some transit agencies have with various types of 

with the setback platforms or with level boarding. And 

so, this is all getting written up. Thank you.

>> Marilyn I just recently have seen something new 

that is totally different from all of these moving 

platforms where the car doesn't stop, it's like the gone 

dole Louisianas--dpsh GONDOLA it's like the moving 

back

>> MARILYN GOLDEN: The setbacks move too.

>> Bob Reuter: These are parallel.

>> MARILYN GOLDEN: The setbacks are the things 

Gary was showing us this morning.

>> Bob Reuter: Totally different.

>> DENNIS CANNON: He is talking about a different 

kind of thing that is often used -- on some gondola 

cars that are cable driven the cars do not stop when 

they get into the station. They continue to move. 

Instead, the platform moves with it. So you have to 

move from a stationary platform to a moving platform 

but once you are on the moving platform you are 

moving the same speed as car relative to the car you are 

not moving. And then you cross the flesh hold. This 

has been done in a number of amusement rides but 
there are also some commercial devices used in Europe 

where this is actually part of the transportation system 

the tricky part is to make sure you get on before you 

reach the end.

 (LAUGHTER)

>> DENNIS CANNON: So there is some issues about 

how you do that. We had this come up as equivalent 

facilitation request years ago and the issue was that 

there would be a button to push if you needed 

additional time which would either stop or slow the 

transition. That was one of the ideas I don't know -- I 

don't know if anybody ever implemented that. But they 

can be tricky for people with disabilities who walk slowly 

and move slowly just making those transitions. So they 

are probably not something that we necessarily want to 

try to regulate at this point. Because they are so weird.

>> MARILYN GOLDEN: Let's list the main types for 

now.

>> DENNIS CANNON: Let me add one -- you had 

under your lifts, you have car born and station born 

there is actually two types of station born there is 

portable lift and affixed lift there are some systems with 

a lift fixed on the platform the car moves up aligns with 

it. Light rail system in San Jose I believe has that.
>> Memphis does also.

>> DENNIS CANNON: But it's a fixed position it's a lift 

that's actually attached to the platform it doesn't move 

however which is re different from the portable lifts 

used by Amtrak showed 20 miles away and have to be 

brought in ox cart or something.

>> MARILYN GOLDEN: Exactly.

>> LINDA MARTIN: I have a question. When we 

originally started the committee generally there was a 

discussion about we were only regulating things that 

would shake out of the rail car or wouldn't shake out of 

the rail car rather. I am confused about whether we 

are -- are we dealing with station-based issues here?

>> MARILYN GOLDEN: We were talking about during 

the break actually. Melissa thought we are.

>> You have to interface with them.

>> MELISSA ANDERSON: Marsha?

>> MARSHA MAZZ: Your charge is to work with the 

vehicle only. But it's impossible to escape the -- the 

connection between the platform and the -- the vehicle 

itself. And you know, deny nis struggled with this in 

coordination requirements that we have in both rules. 

So, I think it's fair game to in the case of boarding and 

alighting to deal with whatever portion of the boarding 
device might be on the platform. Because it's not going 

to get dealt with elsewhere. We don't have a committee 

working on that, we don't have a current rulemaking on 

that. So, it makes sense for you to view it as a whole.

>> LINDA MARTIN: Okay, thanks.

>> DENNIS CANNON: Could I?

>> MARILYN GOLDEN: Dennis?

>> DENNIS CANNON: Here is the way we did it in the 

current rule. We wrote standards for lifts for example, 

assuming they were car born. And then provided an 

exception that says, you can meet these same standards 

on a platform based or portable lift. So, the standard is 

written as a standard for a car born lift with an 

alternative. So, you can do the same kind of thing. You 

can write a standard for a bridgeplate and say, it could 

be on the platform or it could be on the car. But if you 

write it for the car and you write it essentially, you then 

are dealing with a car device and you don't have to deal 

with this issue of whether you are going to regulate 

platforms.

>> MARILYN GOLDEN: Thank you. So, we 

will -- these I think could be two lifts like F retractable 

edges and the ramps and bridgeplates are a different 

list of things. They are not -- because they could be 
used with multiple methods.

>> CHRISTOPHER HART: Chris Hart public member. It 

may also be conceivable that the committee may want to 

discuss whether even when there is a station-based 

solution whether or not one or more cars may need to 

carry a bridgeplate or onboard lift. For instance, when 

the neighborhood kids decide to steal your bridgeplate 

off the platform, every time you don't have a bridgeplate 

at rural Iowa station X how you get people on and off.

>> MARILYN GOLDEN: I see.

>> CHRISTOPHER HART: So that may be something 

folks want to think about as well.

>> MARILYN GOLDEN: Okay.

>> Yeah Frank and Jim.

>> FRANK MALDARI: Going through I think when 

looking at the rule it was organized really well as it is 

level boarding means you don't have to do anything 

else, and if you don't meet level boarding then you have 

to employ ramps and bridge plates or lifts whether the 

platform moves and results in a bridgeplate which is 

what Amtrak showed up yesterday I don't see that any 

different than what is the requirement for ramps and 

bridgeplates. Whether it's a mini high platform, 

it's -- that needs a ramp for a bridge plate or platform 
that results level boarding. I think the way it's 

organized now is really pretty good ramps and 

bridgeplates north to get on the equipment you need 

ramps bridgeplates or a lift. Otherwise it's level 

boarding. How you get to that point is not as important 

as what you do when you get -- when you figure out 

how it's going to be accommodated. Moving platforms I 

think are scary in my mind. I don't know you want to 

regulate it it looks like an amusement park kind of ride. 

I don't think you want to put something in for commuter 

agencies or transportation agencies to look at moving 

platforms. Outside of that I think the way it's organized 

is actually pretty good. And everything that you need to 

specify could be in those three categories.

>> CHRISTOPHER HART: Frank, correct me --

>> MARILYN GOLDEN: I had Jim after that sorry.

>> CHRISTOPHER HART: Frank, correct me if I am 

wrong does MTA not have a moving platform down at 

the it's not installed at after Wall Street one one of those

>> South Perry.

>> JIM WEISMAN: Also 14th Street.

>> CHRISTOPHER HART:.

>> FRANK MALDARI: When you say moving platform 

it's not moving it's not moving with the train. It's 
not -- yeah it's not moving in the sense that it's like an 

amusement park ride it's a platform that actually moves.

>> Bob Reuter: A couple of cities are talking about 

putting it in.

>> It's a retractable edge that's right.

>> (inaudible).

>> FRANK MALDARI: Right. Exactly. You are not you 

are not moving on a moving platform. You are moving 

on a platform that has moved before you got there.

>> There is at least three cities talking about putting 

in transit with these moving platforms.

>> MARILYN GOLDEN: Jim you had your hand up.

>> JIM WEISMAN: No that's fine.

>> MARILYN GOLDEN: David?

>> David Nelson: Okay. Now, I do know there is one 

commuter train out in California, I want to say it's the 

coast sounder or something like that but they have 

moving platforms and what they do is in the morning 

they move it out into position for passenger rails to get 

on and off they leave it out and then in the evening, 

after the last train they retract it back so that way the 

freight railroads can use the track overnight.

>> That's the coaster.

>> MARILYN GOLDEN: There are a number of types of 
platforms that may move at different times but that's --

>> DENNIS CANNON: The difference between the 

ones that we are talking about where the platform 

moves along is people are on it while it's moving.

>> MARILYN GOLDEN: We get that.

>> DENNIS CANNON: It's not the same thing as the 

retractable thing put in place secondly I want to remind 

everybody there is a separate section of the rule which 

is going to be, where -- I don't know where it will be 

put that says if you are not a system that's listed in this 

above, you have to tell what the accessibility option is 

and provide that information to DOT and the Access 

Board who will then authorize that as the accessible 

thing we don't have to deal with the oddball stuff, that's 

already taken care of in a provision that says, anything 

else that doesn't fit in these categories, you have to tell 

us what you are going to do to make it accessible. And 

it has to be presented to DOT and Access Board for 

them to bless it or whatever.

>> MARILYN GOLDEN: That's the equivalent 

facilitation

>> It's similar but not the same as equivalent 

facilitation.

>> MARILYN GOLDEN: Okay.
>> MELISSA ANDERSON: I think we are in the early 

stages of things I would like to see everything left on 

the table for now it may fall out in the end or we may all 

learn something really new and different.

>> MARILYN GOLDEN: So, as Melissa pointed out we 

reviewed the current law and regulations already at the 

first meeting. We could pull that up if we needed. If 

people don't remember. For each of these we have to 

perhaps identify what aspects of them need to be 

regulated and what and in ways that are different from 

current standards. Do. So, that's one thing that -- the 

goal of our discussion this afternoon could be.

>> DENNIS CANNON: I didn't get an answer on the 

earlier proposal thing yet. Everybody feel --

>> That was the simplistic approach to how we deal 

with gaps and we base what we do based on the gap.

>> DENNIS CANNON: Basically say when the gap 

exceeds X horizontally vertically you have to do 

something.

>> Right.

>> DENNIS CANNON: And then pick which one of 

these things works or set priorities for them like first 

would be ramp or bridgeplate and then maybe car born 

lifts would be second and then way down the list would 
be portable lifts and things like that.

>> One of the major points was not to -- I'm sorry Ed 

Hoff not to confuse the issue with whether or not it's a 

brand new station, existing station, brand new vehicle 

existing vehicle we are talking about brand new vehicles 

anyhow we need to talk about the gap.

>> We will have new cars at old stations for a long 

time. The other issue, the specific one I mentioned was, 

wherever the gap exceeds 2 inches which is smaller 

than the current 3 inch.

>> ED HOFF: The 2 inches you didn't dream up that 

came from someplace?

>> DENNIS CANNON: Pardon me?

>> ED HOFF: You didn't dream up the 2 inch number.

>> DENNIS CANNON: Sure I did I dreamed up all of 

this stuff.

 (LAUGHTER)

>> ED HOFF: You came up with Ed Steinfeld and 

figured out a scientific method.

>> DENNIS CANNON: We were told when bringing the 

reg the best you could do is 2 inches there was 

conversation about wheel wear and sway.

We know for example in the two Metro systems 

MARTA and WMATA they have retro fitted their cars 
MARTA built a build on sill extension that gets it down 

to 2 inches they have no problems -- we were told they 

would be ripped off the platform it hasn't happened. 

WMATA included a hard rubber extrusion along the door 

sill of the cars here to reduce the gap further. We know 

that 2 inches is doable. In the rail system -- in the 

inter-city rail and commuter rail we said 4 inches and 

then we had 1 and a half vertical and a lot of different 

things that then had an exception that said if you can't 

do this for the platform do something else. And people, 

designers and operators looked at the regulations and 

got fixated on the minimum gap, and started going 

ballistic we can't do that we can't do that. The idea of 

the phrasing of the provision and then exception is 

based on building codes. Engineers did like that. They 

are used to doing things differently. So, part of the 

reason to get around that fixation is to say we don't care 

what the gap is. If it's bigger than 2 inches do 

something else. Whatever. And pick the things that you 

want to do. And I think 2 inches is just fine, it 

eliminates the problem with railroad saying that we can't 

do 4 because it doesn't say you have to do X it says if 

it's bigger than this you put a bridgeplate which is in 

fact what virtually every rail system already does. They 
put a bridgeplate on all of their cars. So, let's just let 

them do that.

>> ED HOFF: Ed Hoff in support of that. I agree. It 

doesn't need to be so precise simply we know that the 

largest allowable horizontal gap at present in the built 

environment is 2 and a half inches in transportation 

that's the flange way of the rail. At grade crossings. So 

not that that should be any standard we don't want to 

come close to that 2 inches I suggest is probably good. 

We know of course people are going to have problems 

with as was mentioned yesterday caster wheels getting 

smaller and wheels dropping down into them could be 

problematic. Could we go smaller than 2 inches 

perhaps. 2 inches from a layperson without 

scientifically analyzing the issue seems reasonable.

>> CHRISTOPHER HART: Josh has had his hand output 

a while.

>> JOSH CORAN: I --

>> LINDA MARTIN: Linda Martin I have a comment.

>> JOSH CORAN: Go ahead, Linda.

>> LINDA MARTIN: My comment was only that I heard 

somebody say, I think Dennis I am not sure that 

there -- we set a minimum there not be a maximum. 

There is actually a maximum to be called level boarding 
at least in part 37 it's not in Part 38. It says basically 

that level boarding is no more than a 10 inch gap and 

then it's really something else. Or at least 10 inches on 

straight track. So, there is a maximum set at least to be 

called level boarding. So I just wanted to point that out.

>> JIM WEISMAN: Horizontally.

>> Yeah.

>> LINDA MARTIN: I mean mainly that's safety for 

people stepping across gaps.

>> to be clear that's tangent track with track 

curvature and center doors you do sometimes exceed 

that in existing conditions. I mean --

>> LINDA MARTIN: Right you do. It's 13 on curved 

track but the idea is if it's bigger than that you are 

supposed to mitigate it somehow.

>> MARILYN GOLDEN: Gary?

>> LINDA MARTIN: That's not for wheelchairs it's the 

reality of inter-city rail and some of you in the room 

realize.

>> JOSH CORAN: I was going to make a point

>> MARILYN GOLDEN: Up to 13 for Linda

>> JOSH CORAN: I was going to make a point now I 

have to ask a question. I thought we were only allowing 

2 inches instead of 3 inches now I am hearing 10 
inches. So I am totally confused. (inaudible)

The point that I wanted to make there is a huge 

difference between 2 inches and 3 inches in transit 2 is 

practical all trains stop at one station. I worked at 

Illinois central it's commuter with level boarding they 

have zone type trains during rush hour a lot of trains 

rush through stations without stopping 73 miles an 

hour 3 inches is necessary for the speeds. 2 inches you 

occasionally have things hitting each other.

>> DENNIS CANNON: It doesn't limit T. it doesn't say 

you have to maintain 2 or 3 inches it says when it 

exceeds that you put a bridgeplate in.

>> JOSH CORAN: If we said 2 inches on the Illinois 

central every train has to stop three times as long while 

bridgeplate is deployed while change the service --

>> DENNIS CANNON: You don't do a bridgeplate now.

>> JOSH CORAN: I don't know what they do now I left 

employment in 1972. So things may have changed, I 

don't know.

>> CHRISTOPHER HART: We got Gary we got Jim Bob I 

am helping Marilyn because she can't see everyone.

>> MARILYN GOLDEN: I can see in the signs

>> CHRISTOPHER HART: Did Andre -- was that your 

hand?
>> Thank you, Madam Chair. Gary Talbot, Amtrak. I 

just want to comment if it's greater than 2 inches you 

have to do something. Because I understand what 

Dennis is saying and I am really not taking exception to 

it other than to say, I would hate to see that if that's all 

the rule says, then somebody can just have a 3 inch gap 

and say well you have to use bridgeplate and you are 

stuck. Anybody needing less than you know less than 

that is going to have to wait and have a bridgeplate 

deployed even on like a rapid you know heavy rail or 

something like that. So, I understand the thought there 

I think it's a good one but there has to be -- you have to 

get to 2 inches and less like heavy rail we are not 

waiting around for bridgeplate stalling everything out 

and not being able to use that form of transportation. 

Because I would be very -- I would ask the committee to 

really consider that. I think it would be a real missed 

opportunity to leave it hanging thanks.

>> MARILYN GOLDEN: I would love to see a writing 

out of that principle that's important. Jim?

>> JIM WEISMAN: My comment was --

>> CHRISTOPHER HART: Jim, you are always on.

>> JIM WEISMAN: My comment was very similar. I 

don't want to the rule -- it can work a couple of ways. I 
was thinking in that way then I was thinking of the ways 

wait you need a bridgeplate. Because--

>> We have been in trouble on that bus you can't 

hold anybody hostage if I can step over the gap I don't 

care you can't hold me hosage on board of the vehicle. 

It's not something that you could dictate to the 

customers that you may or may not go over -- if a 

custom wants to get off and use manual wheelchair they 

want to get off at a station low level platform and take 

the wheelchair down by themselves with assistance 

nothing I can do to keep that from happening a 3 inch 

gap I can't stop anybody from going across a 3 inch 

gap.

>> JIM WEISMAN: The other point is has to be written 

so that people -- I can't articulate what I want to say.

 (LAUGHTER)

>> JIM WEISMAN: It has to be written so whatever 

reads it realizes that 2 inches or less theoretically is the 

ideal. But that we know that in the world there is 

problems way bigger than that. And that your train is 

going to solve that problem. Your device is going to 

solve the way bigger than that problem.

>> Bob Reuter. I think Dennis has it right in that you 

say 2 inches or less or you do something then you put 
in the caveat that used to be on the buses nothing in 

this provision prevents someone from using it if they 

can. If it doesn't meet this. I know I -- I mean I know 

Bob Carlson and I go over more than 2 inches on a 

regular basis.

>> CHRISTOPHER HART: Just as a reminder for those 

of you on the phone please mute your lines. Folks on 

the phone please mute your lines.

>> Yeah, we have a conversation

>> Paul are you able to mute the person talking?

>> PAUL BEATTY: No.

>> I can attempt to at this time

>> Whoever is talking.

>> I don't have anyone on the line just a moment.

(Discussion off record.)

>> Melissa, could you add greater than 2 inches but 

individual can elect not to use it or not be held hostage 

as Ed put it. No hostages on the rail.

>> MARSHA MAZZ: Marilyn, we don't put that kind of 

thing in the rules anymore. That -- that policy directive 

belongs to DOT. It's up to DOT to say

>> MARILYN GOLDEN: That's a good point if it's not 

going to go to the Access Board rule we don't need to 
write it down.

>> But if we think it's important want to recommend 

to DOT we can't just don't spend a lot of time on it.

>> MARSHA MAZZ: You can recommend anything you 

want to DOT

>> DENNIS CANNON: When the guidelines are 

finalized they will be adopted in DOT in its own 

rulemaking section in which case it will have public 

comments. So issues that have do do with what DOT 

should or should not do change or implement or 

whatever can be addressed to DOT at the time it does 

that rulemaking.

>> MARSHA MAZZ: Again, they are just not going to 

go in our rules.

>> MARILYN GOLDEN: Got it.

>> This is Robert Carlson do we need to say 

something if you don't meet the 2 inch dimension and 

use your either combinations that you have to get an 

okay to do that as back up? Because otherwise, you 

could say -- they just say well we are going to do 10 

inches and bridgeplates all the time. So, if they can't 

meet the 2 inch dimension they have to make a case for 

it? And prove it?

>> DENNIS CANNON: No, the way I did it is if they 
don't get 2 inches they have to do something like a 

bridgeplate a lift whatever period. Because you said 

the -- you set the specifications for what those things 

are what you bridgeplate looks like, how wide it is, how 

long it is, and all of that stuff.

>> But we don't want to get into saying they could 

just opt to do a 4 inch gap and do a plate therefore 

don't do anything but build plates and make people use 

them.

>> LINDA MARTIN: This is Linda, a comment.

>> CHRISTOPHER HART: Linda, go ahead.

>> LINDA MARTIN: My comment is I think part of the 

difficulty here is trying to mash all kinds of rail together. 

You know, I think for the WMATA of the world that 

keeps getting mentioned there is a different capability 

and with inter-city rail at least there are much more 

complicating factors involved. And it could be that we 

should still be considering, you know, a section for light 

rail WMATA light rail, other kinds of straight rail. And 

then a section for commuter and inter-city. I am not 

saying that we have to I am just saying that maybe we 

are try to go fit square pegs into round holes here. 

The other thing that I wanted to offer is if I could get 

someone from FRA to come talk to this group or the 
larger group, whichever about station-based issues with 

platforms and compatibility with rail cars and issues 

related to wheel wear and track wear and the kinds of 

complicating factors in that I don't think that we have 

had that sort of training yet because we have been 

focusing on equipment. But if that would be useful I 

can offer up someone who could do that

>> MARILYN GOLDEN: It might be useful. Frank.

>> I thought Dick Cogswell wrote something about 

that.

>> LINDA MARTIN: He did. He was actually who I was 

going to suggest to spend a little bit of time and talk to 

the group if you wanted him to or (inaudible) passenger 

rail but --

>> MARILYN GOLDEN: We do. Anything else he wants 

to comment on too.

>> FRANK MALDARI: I had one more comment with 

respect to 2 and the 4 at the Long Island, we went 

through effort to reduce the gap where we could. The 

only place we had option to get it close to 2 inches 

terminal platforms where it's slow and controlled 

environment the best we could get was 3 inches. So, in 

other areas, you know, we are kind of stuck with larger 

numbers due to being outdoors in an environment with 
freight traffic. There is only so much you can do to the

cars they do move there is the level in the track 

maintained only to a certain degree you don't want to be 

hitting platforms doing 80 miles an hour. From the 

perspective of do this or have a mitigating solution, I 

think it's a great idea, you know, but the 2 inches to me 

is more than I think we could do and maybe most 

commuter agencies I would like the number to be more 

justifiable I guess would be nice. You know, I he know 

the wheels are getting smaller but some wheels are big 

some are small. If there was a more defensible number 

it would be nice other than this is the best we could 

have done you know with any system right now, and in 

order for you to move freely, is 2 inches the right 

number? I am not sure it is I don't know if there is any 

study talking about what the minimum gap the smallest 

wheel can go over the smallest wheel you expect to see 

on a wheelchair.

>> CHRISTOPHER HART: Let me point out in the regs 

where that's at (inaudible) I am going to point out when 

you look at the requirements, we actually say to 

minimize the (inaudible). Now, most people who may 

have a (inaudible) seems to gloss over that language. 

And then you have got the construction, guess what you 
are over -- a reason why traditionally things like 

(inaudible) have that little bit of language that says 

always try to minimize. Because in fact you know, 

over time there is variance. Now, that said, and I know 

Marsha wants to jump in I am going to (inaudible) in 

Boston they have a great deal of effort working at gap 

mitigation. What we discovered was that the way we 

were maintaining the track in the station was akin to the 

same level of maintenance as you would have in a turn 

out yard because we were presuming that the subway 

cars were coming at a relatively slow speed and 

therefore the fact that the track was a little bit out of 

vertical or horizontal wasn't necessarily that big a deal. 

Once we actually started to inspect the track more often, 

and bring it back into its original design alignment, a lot 

of our gap issues became much smaller gap issues. 

And so, there is both a physical issue a maintenance 

issue. The final point that I would just note, and put to 

Josh and car builders to speak to is in Europe it is very 

common to have popped out steps and gap filling 

devices. The Department of Transportation in the UK, 

there did a huge study looking at (inaudible) coming on 

and off of trains in the UK not in the underground but in 

commuter rail service because, as you know, it's not a 
platform in the UK that is straight.

 (LAUGHTER)

>> CHRISTOPHER HART: Almost every one of those is 

super elevated on a curve. So, just more things to think 

about going down the road. There has been a lot of 

progress I think IRE or (inaudible) equipment 

manufacturers now provide doors to some automatic 

pop out plates as well. So, folks need to think about 

that long-term.

>> JIM WEISMAN: Marilyn, I just want today ask a 

question to follow up on what Frank said you were 

saying 2 is hard 3 you can do is the max the best that 

you can do. I was curious why that is? Is that because 

of the freight using it or is it because of the wheel wear? 

Steel wheels, it's different the car sways what is it 

exactly?

>> FRANK MALDARI: Good question. You hit on some 

of the points there. You do have motion this is Frank 

again you have motion between the car body and truck 

that has to be allowed in addition to that there is motion 

between the wheel and the rail. The motion between 

the wheel and rail varies depending on the wheel 

condition the rail condition and the alignment of the 

track and the gauge. So, there is a lot of factors in 
there. And even, you know, try to go pay attention to as 

much as you can, you still have some limitations. And 

the limitations to us added up to 3 inches is about the 

best we can do without having a very real concern about 

hitting the platform. And you know, like Chris said, if 

you are not focusing on it, there is usually opportunity 

to do something better. And we found that out by 

putting more of an effort into it because we have 

problems with gap accidents, and you know, you can do 

only so much before it becomes more risky to get closer 

than it is to stay a little further away and use a 

bridgeplate. You trying to mitigate the risk from you 

know the train kitting -- hitting the platform or 

somebody getting injured the same as you are to 

making the person being able to get in the train.

>> JIM WEISMAN: Is there a difference between the 

new systems and the old systems with regard to gap 

mitigation? The new systems can get closer than the 

old ones?

>> FRANK MALDARI: Well, as a system you can look at 

it differently. When you are separating on sheer track 

on old, old systems and it's different. I mean outdoors 

is different than indoors depending if you are doing 125 

miles an hour you are maintaining the track good 
because you have to do 125 miles an hour maybe it 

gives you more opportunity. But, you know, when you 

are going through at high speed and there is rocking 

motions that occur the last thing you want is a train 

hitting the platform not scheduled to stop there. Even 

when it is that's a scary situation you want to avoid that 

at all costs.

>> Blair. from Amtrak. You have the tolerance 

between the truck itself and the car body. There is hard 

stops in there. And then you have the relationship as 

you said between the wheels and the rail. And when a 

train comes to a stop, it doesn't -- the theoretical place 

a train ends up perfectly in the middle of the track that's 

the geometry of the wheels and rail. When it comes to a 

stop it doesn't always end up in that good spot. And 

that is created problems where we have had gap 

incidents in the past. And the regulations about 

platform setbacks and things change as you go into 

curves. And most of those numbers are not written they 

are the opposite of what you think for boarding the 

train. They are not written to minimize the gap. They 

are -- or yeah minimize the gap. They are minimum 

setbacks typically. So, in the freight railroad world or 

you know shared track situation that's as close as you 
can get. And you get further away well that's okay you 

are better assured unfortunately that's the opposite of 

where we want to go with closing gaps on rail, on the 

platforms.

>> This is David Nelson here. I have two questions. 

So, at airports, the people movers they have those type 

of glass walls where you stand waiting for the door to 

open. Is there any type of heavy rail out there in the 

world that does that type of glass door?

>> Yes.

>> David Nelson: Okay. If you could let me know 

what it is that does that and then, also, a question to 

Josh.

What is the measurement from top of rail to the floor 

of the Talgo car?

>> JOSH CORAN: This is Josh. The new Talgos that 

are going in service in Oregon 760 millimeters which is 

about 30 inches it's a UIC European standard. The old 

cars those are about 24 inches. So we have even in 

Talgo we have variation.

>> David Nelson: Wow that creates a problem for 

level boarding.

>> MARILYN GOLDEN: No kidding.

>> CHRISTOPHER HART: David? In regards to your 
question, about platform screens, I use commonly in 

Asia and in some systems in Europe, there is set in the I 

believe a couple systems that integrated gap fillers into 

that platform screen device because obviously it can be 

ease yes, sir for the -- from the equipment standpoint 

to integrate that gap into a fixed object -- that gap filler 

into a fixed object as opposed to an unfixed object. In 

the U.S. the only time you see platform screens is at 

Disney or at like at the airport on the people movers.

>> DENNIS CANNON: Platform screens are typically 

used on people movers and so forth. There is at least I 

believe it's either Lenin grad or Moscow rapid rail 

system with platform screens that's the only --

>> CHRISTOPHER HART: Paris Tokyo, they are all 

over.

>> DENNIS CANNON: Mostly they are used on slower 

speed device. Getting back to the issue about 

how -- what -- how close you can get. And the whole 

issue I was proposing is to not say that you have to 

decrease the gap. It just says, if it's bigger than this, we 

don't care what it is you have to put a bridgeplate on. 

My question is: If you -- you said you had bigger gaps 

in some of your stations, don't you use bridgeplates?

>> FRANK MALDARI: Yeah, we do. I agree Dennis.
>> DENNIS CANNON: That's all I was trying -- not to 

set a maximum and say that you have to get to 2 inches. 

That's what the way -- that's the way the current 

regulation is being written or read because it says 

maximum 4 inch and people are freaking out because 

they can't get there. And my issue is, don't set the 

maximum. Don't say, you have to get to within X 

dimension, only say if it's bigger than X dimension you 

have to do something else. If somebody wants to, you 

know, pop a wheely and zip across -- across a 4 inch 

gap I don't see a problem with that. You don't deploy 

bridgeplates typically unless you have got somebody in 

the chair who is actually getting on or off that's the only 

time you need the bridgeplates. You don't stick them 

down there for every stop and every door so my issue 

was to try to get away from this issue of saying you have 

to get to within some specific distance of the platforms.

>> MARILYN GOLDEN: We don't want to set up 

incentives or something encourage reduction of the 

gap?

>> DENNIS CANNON: Pardon me?

>> MARILYN GOLDEN: You don't want to set up 

something that encourages reduction of the gap.

>> I think he can you don't need incentives.
>> DENNIS CANNON: The whole issue is that does 

encourage reduction of the gap because if you figure 

out a way to do it, then you don't have to do anything. 

So, if you are -- you know, you don't wanted the 

conduct you are to put a bridgeplate don't and you can 

figure out an automatic gap closer you are golden.

>> FRANK MALDARI: This is Frank. Again, the 

smallest gap is best for everybody trying to traverse it. 

Yeah, there is already a big safety incentive to make the 

gap as small as possible we are doing that. I think 

Dennis' idea is a very smart one that you are trying to 

get people on and off the train safely, if you can do it, 

fine. If you can't, then you find a bridgeplate or you find 

some other mean toss get him on and off the train 

safely. It's the key. It's a functional -- you need the to 

function to be able to get on and off the train safely and 

that's the most important thing.

>> MARILYN GOLDEN: If you can't reduce the gap to a 

very small one, then the price that has to be paid is use 

of a bridgeplate which requires staff, it's a device, so it's 

more -- more to do.

>> FRANK MALDARI: Right. There is an incentive 

there to avoid that.

>> DENNIS CANNON: There is incidentally UVA is on it 
there is a TRB study currently underway to develop a 

guide book for how to prevent problems and injuries for 

the gap more than just mind the gap like they do in the 

UK but actually reducing gap things UVA is on it and 

(inaudible) in in Portland adds UWE mentioned there is 

discussions at the APTA commuter rail something 

technical committee. There is currently a project that is 

developing a guide book that's going to give you a 

bunch of different things to mitigate the gap provision.

>> MARILYN GOLDEN: Good Gary.

>> Gary Talbot: Thank you, Madam Chair. Gary 

Talbot, Amtrak. I will just share my opinion on it. The 

bridgeplate in this discussion feels like the 

station-based mobile lift in our current rule. And what I 

mean by that is, let's say you have a gap and it's wide 

enough that, you know, maybe somebody in a chair 

especially a power chair might not be able to get across. 

We will say put down a bridgeplate why wouldn't you put 

down a gap filling device we do it all over the place you 

have movable platform edges muni does it they have 

one. They do it in New York. We wrote it into the 

vehicle specifications in Boston for the new heavy rail 

cars. I mean I just don't understand why you just -- a 

bridgeplate, you may not be able to find somebody, 
maybe somebody takes the risk and shouldn't now they 

get hurt or stuck and the train can't get after the train 

because they can't find the plate or a person to help you 

those are the real life issues we deal with today I hate in 

a Brant new rule if it's greater than this put down a 

bridgeplate. There are cases when you need a 

bridgeplate and but it just seems like you know, if I 

could work on the car with Blair and make changes to 

our cars, boy I would tell you I would love to try to put 

something on there that eat the gap up and do stuff 

that just happens maybe you push a button you don't 

have to wait and have somebody walk 450 foot to grab a 

plate.

>> DENNIS CANNON: That's part of the requirement. 

If you could figure out how to get the gap down to 2 

inches you don't have to do a bridgeplate.

>> You say after the push the (inaudible) not before 

you push the plug.

>> Gary Talbot: I am saying why just 2 inches or less 

you are good I love that but greater than 2 inches 

bridgeplate why not the committee require something 

other than just a bridgeplate.

>> DENNIS CANNON: Greater than 2 inches do 

something
>> Gary Talbot: I understand that it's back to the 

current rule for me with station-based mobile lifts. You 

know, if you have freight traffic, and if you don't own 

the right-of-way you can do one of these four or five 

things in the last one on the list not prioritized is station 

based mobile lift guess what we do station base mobile 

lifts.

>> MARILYN GOLDEN: Right. For reasons that we 

know. But I think your idea that there is a way to 

require something that's automatic, that doesn't require 

a human-based solution everyone is ahead. To have 

that. What are those? What are the different devices for 

that.

>> Gary Talbot: If I could madam chair Gary Talbot 

Amtrak. You have different CAM-based devices fold out 

underneath the door they do that in muni it eats the gap 

up basically that's what Chris and I worked on in Boston 

you have a platform edge I believe Kyle found it might 

be Long Island I know it's in the MTA system that shoots 

out just translates out and fills the void. And then 

before the train takes off it just retracts it. So, you 

know, it could be platform based it could be vehicle 

based. But to your point, you hit the nail on the head 

Marilyn no human interaction no human intervention 
necessary. It's all new stuff.

>> FRANK MALDARI: Could I make a quick comment.

>> MARILYN GOLDEN: Marsha Frank Bob.

>> MARSHA MAZZ: Just point of information. There is 

nothing to prevent you from prioritizing your 

recommendations and suggesting some kind of priority 

where, you know, the covered entity would be required 

to attempt to do one if they can't do one they do two if 

they can't do 3 then they do Andraea nal sis. You know, 

showing that they can't do one of the other options. So, 

that's certainly something that you could recommend if 

you so chose.

>> MARILYN GOLDEN: Very good.

>> FRANK MALDARI: Just a quick comment to what 

Gary was saying. The concept of having a device move 

out automatically filling a gap is an easy concept to 

understand it's a very difficult concept to implement 

safely. And reliably under all weather conditions. I can 

understand why you would want it to happen. But there 

are significant risks associated with it not coming out 

what it's supposed to. Getting stuck out when it's not 

supposed to. Not working properly. There have been 

accidents with movable platforms that are much worse 

than much worse consequences -- much worse 
consequences than you might imagine. These 

mechanical devices are risky. If there is one person two 

people getting off the train it's a lot safer to have a 

conductor there with the bridgeplate helping them get 

off than automatic device that may or may not work at 

that particular station may get stuck out and hurt 

somebody on the platform. Just, you know, it's hard to 

say that you can't do something, but the reality of doing 

something reliably and safely is a lot more complicated 

than you might think. The interlocks that you would 

have to have to prevent the train from moving when the 

platform is out to stop the doors from opening when the 

platform is not out. Every level of complexity reduces 

the reliability of the system. And when you try to move 

a lot of people quickly, and one delayed train winds up 

with other people stuck on a train for hours creates a 

big problem. So, you know, you got to understand too 

you are trying to move a lot of people quickly but most 

importantly safely. And that's where we need to keep 

our focus.

>> CHRISTOPHER HART: Frank, it's 20 minutes to 3. 

And I want folks to be conscious of that. And I think 

Marilyn just point out that (inaudible) safety issues but 

giving it a New York MTA operate some of these types 
of devices already 24/7, clearly both New York MTA and 

London which also has one of these has begun to figure 

out how to address some of these issues. Finally, I 

think it's worthwhile to note that overall, if I (inaudible) 

committee intent thus far is that we want to not look at 

things as specialized manner. And get into most 

practicable that you are trying to make 

recommendations instead of the widest array of users. 

So, -- for the widest range of users. It's 2:45, so 

Marilyn I don't know where you want to go.

>> MARILYN GOLDEN: We have I know if we have 

public comment or what. I mean my next question 

would be we don't have to answer it today what are the 

difference success stories at automatic deployment of 

gap filling technologies. But that's a question that can 

be answered another time looking at staff here for what 

other. Billy?

>> MARSHA MAZZ: You don't need to do public 

comment everybody is allowed to sit the the table.

>> This is David Nelson, if I could make a comment. I 

don't know how many years ago but Amtrak borrowed 

ice cream from Germany they had that movable gap 

mitigation -- unfortunately, we didn't have that as part 

of Acela, but I think it's fair that one of us needs to get 
in touch with the ice train ICE train and ask them how 

reliable it was how they dealt with different weather 

situations what do they do if it breaks down. And I 

think that you know some of the concerns that I think 

that those answers are already there. And they were 

already done by Germany.

>> Bob Reuter. We don't even have to go that far 

Dubai opened the new light rail system which is 100% 

screen doorsen closed almost zero gaps Saudi Arabia 

almost finished using screen doors and almost zero 

gaps on high-speed rail I don't know what the 

technology they are using but they are doing it because 

of the heat. They need screen door to keep the stations 

air conditioned. But they are and a friend of mine told 

me how tiny the gap was and everything, they use a 

power chair.

>> This is Andre from Bombardier. I looked at Boston 

spec, as you mentioned there is gap mitigation device 

that's in there. So, hopefully a supplier will be tasked in 

designing this thing. Hopefully it comes from existing 

vehicle most probably from Europe I haven't seen one of 

those here. And I will look at what the -- what you have 

done on the ICE vehicles try to find what kind of device 

they are using there or if it's not ICE cars it might be 
some other car from Europe so we will see.

>> Thank you.

>> As I recall the deal with the ICE train it was a

tilting train it -- its dynamic clearance was it couldn't be 

as wide as a standard train so it had to have the flip out 

device. I remember seeing it but I couldn't tell you for 

my life exactly was -- how it was doing but I remember 

the train stop the doors open the thing flipped out. But 

I don't remember it being -- from platform height it 

being particularly level. It's been a long time since I saw 

that train.

>> (inaudible).

>> MARILYN GOLDEN: Okay. Well, I hope this has 

helped us develop some idea of structure for the rule. 

What I don't personally remember is just how different it 

is from what we have but I think it's quite different it's 

going to be a big reorganization. I don't know how 

much of it is going to be new hopefully something.

>> MELISSA ANDERSON: Were there things that we 

wanted to put together or presentations that we wanted 

to -- do you have action items for the next meeting? I 

guess somebody mentioned I think Linda you 

mentioned Dick Cogswell may have a white paper he has 

written he may want to share with us?
>> LINDA MARTIN: Yes, I am happy to ask him. I can 

share the white paper, I mean -- I don't know if he is 

available on the date of our next meeting or not. But I 

can ask him. Certainly share the document. It's already 

in the public record.

>> MELISSA ANDERSON: Why don't you talk to him 

and get back to us. The other -- were there any other 

action items that we want to move forward with for the 

next meeting?

>> MARILYN GOLDEN: There should be but I don't 

know what they are.

 (LAUGHTER)

>> MARSHA MAZZ: I E-mailed Ed Steinfeld to ask him 

if he has any data on the caster wheel sizes I am not 

sure he does. If he does he can bring it forward 

hopefully at next meeting.

>> MARILYN GOLDEN: Wheelchair caster wheels?

>> MARSHA MAZZ: People were talking about the 2 

in--

>> MARILYN GOLDEN: How many wheelchairs have 

small casters

>> MARSHA MAZZ: I don't know if Ed will know how 

many but how many to sample.

>> MARILYN GOLDEN: Hopefully something can be 
extrapolated from that.

>> This is Andre I will report back on the automatic 

gap devices.

>> MARILYN GOLDEN: Just for people to bring 

information or you will bring some.

>> Andre: Yes, I will.

>> MARILYN GOLDEN: Yes Jon.

>> JON HOLBROOK: I just found a file from what of 

my French colleagues from 2006 but it's a presentation 

on all kinds of European whether it's lifts, plates, 

automatic you know gap fillers. Lots of pictures. And 

what I will do is probably the smartest thing to do is 

send it to Paul to put it out on the site.

>> MARILYN GOLDEN: That would be great. And you 

are writing guys are capturing all of these Mel medical 

action items, I missed the last one --

>> MARILYN GOLDEN: One more time Jon is aware of 

a paper addressing from several years ago all of the 

various optional gap filling devices options of gap filling 

devices is that correct Jon? 

>> JON HOLBROOK: Yeah. It's a compilation of 

European equipment, not just all of them but 

everybody's everything from lifts from a bridgeplate to a 

lift to automatically deployed step, gap filler, it just 
shows a lot of different things.

>> MARSHA MAZZ: Jon if you are going to obtain it 

from somebody else could you get permission from 

them for posting?

>> JON HOLBROOK: Oh, yes.

>> MARSHA MAZZ: If you submit somebody else's 

work.

>> JON HOLBROOK: It's within Austin but I will 

confirm it's sharable.

>> MARILYN GOLDEN: Great David.

>> David Nelson: I don't know about the 

summertime I might be going on vacation. I might be 

going to --

>> Please use the mic.

>> Sorry.

>> With the summer coming around, I know some of 

us will be going on vacation people may be going to 

Europe and so forth but I understand everyone has a 

life, but I will ask that for pictures -- sorry. If there can 

be video like video footage not still pictures but video 

footage of any type of you know gap filler retractable 

fillers anything like that movable platforms bridgeplates 

anything that you could think of if you have an 

opportunity to see that if you could take video footage 
during vacations anybody go to Europe Asia that type of 

thing that would be great to help with that.

>> I think the subcommittee should take a field trip.

 (LAUGHTER)

>> to Dubai.

>> I took pictures on my vacation to San Francisco I 

saw this bathroom I loved it and I wanted to take 

pictures in the bathroom, thought I was odd as well.

 (LAUGHTER)

>> MELISSA ANDERSON: Okay. We have the next 

meeting date, would everyone like to get together for a 

subcommittee call on April 24th or do you want to wait 

until May 22nd? Who says April 24? 

>> MARILYN GOLDEN: I don't think I can do it.

>> MELISSA ANDERSON: Okay. You says May 22nd. 

>> MARILYN GOLDEN: I can't do April 24.

I can grab somebody to do it.

>> We should have Stan, we really should have.

 (LAUGHTER)

>> MELISSA ANDERSON: We have a lot of action items, 

if we do May 22nd that gives people a chance to get 

their things together and we will have a rail good 

productive meeting in May then.

>> FRANK MALDARI: I had a suggestion anybody who 
is gathering information on these gap devices, it would 

be very, very helpful to know, you know, what kind of a 

system it's on, what the volume of passengers are, and 

environment. Any additional information that you can 

get as far as how well it's actually working, would be 

very helpful to understand what its capabilities are.

>> The operating characteristics of the system is 

important.

>> ED HOFF: Also it depends who you ask, ask a crew 

member. In addition to, perhaps, the authority because 

I found out things from SEPTA that were not necessarily 

well-known by the supervisors and the people that run 

the system.

>> MARILYN GOLDEN: We are going to rely on Ed for 

undercover -- for story that the transit agency itself 

may not want told.

 (LAUGHTER) there are all those levels

 (Discussion off record.)

>> MARILYN GOLDEN: We can fix the world in 5 

minutes. Okay. I am getting calls for a gavel. The 

gavel has sounded. Thank you for this very helpful 

opening meeting. All suggestions welcome.

>> BILLY ALTOM: One last thing. Publicly, for the 

record Marilyn, thank you for chairing the committee we 
will do wonderful on all of our committees thank you for 

being here this week. Adios amigos.

>> CHRISTOPHER HART: All we look forward to your 

continued involvement.

(End of meeting.)