Note: The output shown below is from the

Communication Access Realtime Translation (CART) system used in the subcommittee meeting and is unedited. The CART system was used to provide an accommodation to persons with hearing loss and persons who are deaf, and was streamed in real

- time and available to the public on the inter net during the meeting.

U.S. Access Board Friday, April 11, 2014 Rail Vehicles Access Advisory Committee Boarding and Alighting Subcommittee meeting

>> BILLY ALTOM: I can tell this is Friday everybody jumped right to it at attention. >> DENNIS CANNON: I could have Teddy bark for you. >> BILLY ALTOM: I hope you enjoyed lunch today, again what a beautiful day outside. The next order of business is we are going to move into your Subcommittee on Boarding & Alighting we need a chair for this committee. One second. What we want to do we are going to do real quick then entertain questions. Right now, RVAAC members in the room eachorganization has one vote for who they would like to be

the chair of this committee we are going to vote about. We are going to give each of the nominees an opportunity to speak for a few minutes why they would like to have the position then what we will do is Paul has some small paper ballots for us whenever we get through we will pass out the paper ballots and take a vote and ta lly those and find out who the lucky person is. We will also take you could nominate yourself from the floor as we will. We are going to have an opportunity to do as well. >> UWE RUTENBERG: Just a thought before we go into this. That really relates to a ll of the subcommittees. In the committees that I am chairing we always have a

co
- chair. And the reason for this is when the main chair is not available somebody else can take over and there is continuity. I don't want to sound like a bureaucrat here it might be something that could be available because we are all volunteers. And you know, like Blair like you are taking this and there might be days where you have other priorities or anybody else, and to have continuity in the process I think it would be good that you have another one to rely on, just a thought. >> or vice

- chair.>> Billy, I was going to ask is that by default the

alternate for that person. Or is that too much >> BILLY ALTOM: Would that be? Let's look at our the official keepers of the rules. If

-- >> MARSHA MAZZ: In the absence of Lisa, who is, you know, one of the official keepers, I would think that you are electing a person to chair not an organization. But if that person wants someone to sit in for them for a meeting I don't see w hy they can't pick somebody and say, could you you know herd the cats for me at this meeting? >> BILLY ALTOM: I like that. Did everyone hear that in agreement with that? If the chair has to be out of a meeting they can ask someone to sit in for them for that particular meeting does that sound reasonable for folks? Awesome, thank you. Also, if you are

-- if your alternates can be chair of committee I wanted to make sure folks knew that as well. >> What is the role of PAX and super PAX? >> BILLY ALTOM: A lternates can self apply, that's what I meant I may not have said that. But as far as PAX and super PAX I prefer those checks to be paid out to cash. (LAUGHTER)>> I was going to bring up the stipend for the chair. >> BILLY ALTOM: Exactly. (LAUGHTER) >> All right. Currently double my money. Currently we have Marilyn Golden, Ed Hoff and Stanton Saucier put their names in the hat any other folks in the room that would like self promote themselves. >> BILLY ALTOM: I see Ed has his name up >> ED HOFF : I would like to take my name down from being nominated to support of Marilyn Golden as chair. >> BILLY ALTOM: Ed takes his name down. Anybody else that would like to put their name in? >> STANTON SAUCIER: I will do the same. So Marilyn is the chair. (LAUGHTER) (APPLAUSE) >> BILLY ALTOM: Marilyn by default. Marilyn I appoint you as chair of the subcommittee. >> MARILYN GOLDEN: The problem is when I am not hear. >> BILLY ALTOM: Awesome congratulations Marilyn by default you are the new chair. (inaudible) >> BILLY ALTOM: Congratulations though. >> MARILYN GOLDEN:>> if congress could learn from us to get things

done. >> MARILYN GOLDEN: I don't know what to do. >> MELISSA ANDERSON: I put the agenda together. >> MARILYN GOLDEN: Thanks. >> MELISSA ANDERSON: If we want to move forward with that agenda I can kind of run things along and you can we can do it together sort of or it's all yours you can take the agenda and run. >> MARILYN GOLDEN: I will help you with herding. >> Melissa Anderson: Okay. I think everybody should have a copy of the meeting agenda. And I guess anybody have comments or objections to the agenda that was sent out. Okay. Approved. We selected the subcommittee chair and than k you very much Marilyn for volunteering. Much appreciated. I wanted to go over as we get started here, the scoping for the boarding and alighting that we put together just so that we are all on the same page when we start off. I am going to read throug h it real quickly. The scope of the subcommittee is to review the current requirements for accessible biting and alighting which were issued in September 1991 not updated since that time. The objective of the subcommittee is to recommend for postrevisio ns to update improve or expand the scoping and

technical criteria in order to ensure acceptable level of access for individuals with disabilities on rapid rail light rail commuter rail inter

- city rail and other vehicles and systems covered under the board' s current guidelines. These recommendations will be based on current regulations and consideration of changes taking place in vehicle structure and the

-- and going too fast for you? Sorry thought about that. The subcommittee will address the following items: Times of devices and methods available and appropriate for boarding and alighting on rapid rail, light rail, commuter rail, inter

- city rail, and other vehicles and systems covered under the board's current guidelines. Permanent versus temporary in stallation versus platform

- based devices and back up methods in case of mechanical failure. Level boarding, the level boarding definition and evaluation of use by different car types for light and heavy and inter

- city trains at level and sometimes shared platforms. Wheelchair lift capacity, platform barriers, self operation. Ramp and bridgeplate slope and railing requirements. On board storage and deployment area requirements. Gaps between vehicle and platform and the potential for gap filler devices.Exterior doors and doorways including minimum width

adjacent handrails and access to bi

- level platforms and other boarding and alighting issues that may become important during subcommittee discussions. These all

came
-- it doesn't include every single d etail of the issues list we started with originally I kind of glopped them all together we will make sure we address all of the issues individually. The timetable is, we want to have this completed

-- we want to have

-- complete our review and make recomm endations to the board by October for consideration of the full committee. I said October and I don't have it in front of me I have an old copy. We still say

-- yep by October. So, anybody have any comments or questions on the scope that we have handed out. I think everybody had an opportunity to see it. Previously. Okay. So, we wanted to start the discussion on boarding and alighting. And with maybe a review of the current laws and regulations and then discuss boarding methods and appropriate modes and discuss level boarding ramps bridgeplates and lifts. I think before we can

-- before we can make recommendations on the to move forward we really need to have good understanding of where we are now. I put together a list and it was just a copy and p aste outof the

-- out of the

-- out of the out. Regulations. And

I put it together by mode because that's the way the current regulations are designed. And they each go through the same

-- I am going to cheat because Paul was kind enough before this ever really started to put together a spreadsheet so I can have them all together. But most of them included, we got the clear width of the doorways our boarding alighting will include working with the doorways. So, we have got whatever device or method we board the plan and we have to look at the actual entrance into the train. So rapid rail, rapid rail we have a clear width of 30 inches. >> 30? >> MELISSA ANDERSON: Wait a minute.
>> 32. >> You want to come on this side of the table? >> MELISSA ANDERSON: Aisle width is minimum 30. Okay. 32 I'm sorry guys. (LAUGHTER) >> MELISSA ANDERSON: Do you want to do this by mode or do you want to go through

-- (Discussion off record.)

>> DENNIS CANNON: Can I say something?>> MELISSA ANDERSON: Yes. >> DENNIS CA NNON: This is Dennis. We originally divided it up ack scoring to

-- according to modes in part so there would be like a stand alone document so if you were doing computer rail you could grab the commuter rail section and not have to worry about anything. But there is lots of duplication. And in doing the NPRM for buses, we decided to put sort of all of the rail things into one section. So, and a lot of people complained about the duplication. And it would be far easier to have a set of regulations that apply to everything and then little subcategories or subpoints that are specific to a particular kind of

-- a particular mode. The other issues are and one that you haven't mentioned is the number of doors that have to be accessible. Because in a rapid rail it's basically all but in inner

- city rail it's only one. Because that one is next to the seating area and that seating area has to have accessible route to the restroom as well. You don't have restrooms on rapid rail or light rail cars they are slig htly different. One of the issues is how many doors are going to be accessible quote unquote. And meet the regulations. And then what you have to get to from that door. In the case of rapid rail and light rail you have toget to a space that you can fi t the footprint, and we

don't care where it is. It can be right inside the door if you want. But in inner

- city rail you have different issues because of the restroom. But I don't think there is any reason to segregate all of the modes separately at this point. So, I would suggest that maybe we don't

-- we don't want to follow the same format we have lots of complaints. >> MELISSA ANDERSON: I find it pretty tedious putting this together you are copying and pasting the same thing over and over. I don't k now, I mean we kind of mentioned this before and format will probably be decided later of course it could be recommendation. But do you guys want to tackle doorways or tackle devices and methods? Marlin do you have

-- >> MARILYN GOLDEN: I would suggest d evices and methods because that's going to drive the doorway issues. >> MELISSA ANDERSON: Okay. David? >> David Nelson: Okay. I wanted to make sure I am looking for the agenda are we going to be including visual alerts as part of this group or no?
>> MELISSA ANDERSON: That would be under communications.>> David Nelson: I mean for example like doors for a

red light to go off when a door is closing kind of thing. >> MELISSA ANDERSON: That probably falls under the communication section and how that's ad dressed visually and audibly. >> David Nelson: Okay. >> MELISSA ANDERSON: In the end, all of our committees are going to have to kind of mesh together and be coordinated. So, we will work with them and we can always, you know, everybody can always sit in on one of the subcommittee meetings.
>> Blair Slaughter: I was going to say so we don't lose it, if we can put that in there as an asterisk or something so we don't lose it down the path. >> DENNIS CANNON: It's part of the current regulation.
>> Blair Sl aughter: Okay. >> MELISSA ANDERSON: Yes. >> Blair Slaughter: It's been mentioned so it is there right? >> MARSHA MAZZ: Melissa if you don't do it buy rail type you have eggs exceptions >> MELISSA ANDERSON: There won't be >> MARILYN GOLDEN: Within a general category ofcomponent. >> MELISSA ANDERSON: We would have doorways, you know, 32 inches, and then there were

-- if there were one that was 34 or 42 or something it would be called out separately so it might be 32 inter

-- inter

- city, commuter. Yes we can work through the format later. >> MARILYN GOLDEN: All right. >> MELISSA ANDERSON: But that's a good point go ahead Dennis. >> DENNIS CANNON: I want to throw out a proposal for discussion that I think

-- we had on the current regulation there is a lot of things about gaps between new cars and new stations, new cars and old stations old cars and new stations. And it got very confusing we had a chart. I have a separate proposal which we did for the bus and that is to simply state in how many doors have to comply with we can deal with later. Simply state wherever either of the condition of the following conditions are met. The gap is larger than two inmuchs horizontal gap, and or the vertical difference between the floor and the platform is more than 5/8 inches a boarding device shall be used, period. And then we can define later what the various categories of boardingdevices are, ramps bridge plates lifts whatever. And

then decide if there is a priority for how we want to address them we can start with that. But it basically says we don't care whether it's a new car old car new station, whatever if the gap is bigger than two inches which is what we have for the buses, and we know this is doable today, because MARTA and WMATA has done it it is a simple fix it can be done with retrofit. You have to provide something. If less than two inches on people movers with a half inch whatever you don't need to do anything you can roll on. >> MELISSA ANDERSON: And that is the current regulation go ahead Gary.
>> Gary Talbot: Thank you Melissa Gary Talbot Amtrak. I would just offer to the committee, I don't know where the right place is, but I would just offer to the committee we have a unique opportunity because our contractor RLE working with us on the gap mitig ation devices as well as redesign of bridge plates is here in

-- we are good enough to bring three over and so we have those that people can kind of kick the tires on or look at whenever you think is appropriate they are only here for today. And I think D ennis already raised some really great points about the existing rulemakingon like a bridgeplate and how you know perhaps that

may need to change some. And I think our designs kind of speak to what some of those issues might be. It might really be a gre at opportunity. The other thing that I would say is, it will really give you a flavor for less than 32 inches which is currently our requirement. Which you know regional cars don't have. It will give you spatially an idea of how restrictive the current cars are and what the 32 would be relative to our opening that we have. Just as a suggestion. >> Okay. >> MARILYN GOLDEN: I don't know if people think it's a good use of the time to take a short break and actually look at them? We have

-- if we have them at the table we should go with it but at the same time I want people to take the opportunity to do that so we don't have a break I am not sure how to accommodate that. Lunch would have been a good time. >> You are the chair you can demand we have a break

. >> MARILYN GOLDEN:

-- I know I can I am not sure it's the best use of our time. >> MELISSA ANDERSON: We haven't gotten down the path now is as good a time as any. Rather thanbreaking up. >> MARILYN GOLDEN: How many people haven't really seen them? That want to. >> MELISSA ANDERSON: Let's take 10 minutes everybody look at them if you need to break this might be the only break you get before we end today. >> LINDA MARTIN: I'm sorry, this is Linda, what are we looking at? >> MELISSA ANDERSON: The bridgeplates that REL had at the Amtrak station yesterday or Wednesday. >> MARILYN GOLDEN: Prototype Amtrak bridgeplates. >> CHRISTOPHER HART: And just before everyone breaks, keep in mind that the current requirements for bridgeplates require a 2 inch lip continuous lip on those as we heard yesterday, there is some level of conflict with certain types of vehicles in certain types of (inaudible). So, bear that in mind when you look at these as well.
>> The technical wizards were in dispute about whether th ey need to be higher in the center to accommodate vertical gap so I would love to hear all of the smart engineers on this committee debate that. (Short recess taken.)>> MARILYN GOLDEN: We are going to reconvene.

What have we learned? >> They are yellow

. >> MARILYN GOLDEN: All right. Come on back if you could please. >> MELISSA ANDERSON: Okay. Everybody we will get started again come back to the table. Play time is over. >> MARILYN GOLDEN: Paul, have we got the phone call going? >> PAUL BEATTY: Yes. >> Do we have anybody on the phone? And they are there. >> CHRISTOPHER HART: Come on back guys. >> MARILYN GOLDEN: Linda and others. Oh, a lot of people? Welcome. >> Yes Linda here sof rei had it muted. >> MARILYN GOLDEN: Okay. So, we are going to focu s on the different boarding and alighting techniques, and which ones are used by different modes of rail. Melissa's suggestion I think it's good it will flesh out some of the characteristics of those techniques. And I think that on the agenda 5.0 there i s a mixture of techniques and then there is also some sort of ancillary devices that are used with din techniques. So, forexample

-- with different techniques. So, for example

if the first technique is level boarding Melissa is here right? She is aroun d. I was too short to see. Okay. I believe you. Then there is

-- I want to skip ramps and bridgeplates are used with many times of boarding. I am going to lay it out as I know it to cut through and people with take issue with the listing that they have if they have issues. So, level board something

-- level boarding is the way to board the regulations give it priority as the best way. There is an item here lifts. But there are different kinds of lifts. There is car born lifts and station

- based lifts those are two different up ones. And a fourth way of boarding is many high platforms. Mini high platforms. And a new kind that people is developing New Jersey is helping and Gary designed them for Amtrak the setback platforms which can have a variety of characteristics. I think

-- and those were not in any order of preference or anything like that that was just a list at random. And then I think we have a separate list of things that are

-- I am going to call them amenities or ancillary devices that ca n be used with more than one of these kinds of boarding. That would be ramps and bridgeplates and the other one we termed

-- help meout Ed your edges? Your edge things? Retractable

edges. Some transit agencies have with various types of with the setback platforms or with level boarding. And so, this is all getting written up. Thank you. >> Marilyn I just recently have seen something new that is totally different from all of these moving platforms where the car doesn't stop, it's like the gone dole Lo uisianas

-- dpsh GONDOLA it's like the moving back >> MARILYN GOLDEN: The setbacks move too.
>> Bob Reuter: These are parallel. >> MARILYN GOLDEN: The setbacks are the things Gary was showing us this morning.
>> Bob Reuter: Totally different. >> DENNIS CAN NON: He is talking about a different kind of thing that is often used

-- on some gondola cars that are cable driven the cars do not stop when they get into the station. They continue to move. Instead, the platform moves with it. So you have to move from a stationary platform to a moving platform but once you are on the moving platform you are moving the same speed as car relative to the car you are not moving. And then you cross the flesh hold. This has been done in a number of amusement rides butthere are also some commercial devices used in Europe

where this is actually part of the transportation system the tricky part is to make sure you get on before you reach the end. (LAUGHTER) >> DENNIS CANNON: So there is some issues about how you do that. We had this come up as equivalent facilitation request years ago and the issue was that there would be a button to push if you needed additional time which would either stop or slow the transition. That was one of the ideas I don't know

-- I don't know i f anybody ever implemented that. But they can be tricky for people with disabilities who walk slowly and move slowly just making those transitions. So they are probably not something that we necessarily want to try to regulate at this point. Because they are so weird. >> MARILYN GOLDEN: Let's list the main types for

now. >> DENNIS CANNON: Let me add one

-- you had under your lifts, you have car born and station born there is actually two types of station born there is portable lift and affixed lift there are some systems with a lift fixed on the platform the car moves up aligns with it. Light rail system i n San Jose I believe has that.>> Memphis does also. >> DENNIS CANNON: But it's a fixed position it's a lift that's actually attached to the platform it doesn't move however which is re different from the portable lifts used by Amtrak showed 20 miles away and have to be brought in ox cart or something. >> MARILYN GOLDEN: Exactly. >> LINDA MARTIN: I have a question. When we originally started the committee generally there was a discussion about we were only regulating things that would shake out of the rail car or wouldn't shake out of the rail car rather. I am confused about whether we

are
-- are we dealing with station

- based issues here? >> MARILYN GOLDEN: We were talking about during the break actually. Melissa thought we are. >> You have to interface w ith them. >> MELISSA ANDERSON: Marsha? >> MARSHA MAZZ: Your charge is to work with the vehicle only. But it's impossible to escape the

-- the connection between the platform and the

-- the vehicle itself. And you know, deny nis struggled with this in

coo rdination requirements that we have in both rules. So, I think it's fair game to in the case of boarding and alighting to deal with whatever portion of the boardingdevice might be on the platform. Because it's not going

to get dealt with elsewhere. We don't have a committee working on that, we don't have a current rulemaking on that. So, it makes sense for you to view it as a whole. >> LINDA MARTIN: Okay, thanks. >> DENNIS CANNON: Could I? >> MARILYN GOLDEN: Dennis? >> DENNIS CANNON: Here is the way we did it in the current rule. We wrote standards for lifts for example, assuming they were car born. And then provided an exception that says, you can meet these same standards on a platform based or portable lift. So, the standard is written as a standa rd for a car born lift with an alternative. So, you can do the same kind of thing. You can write a standard for a bridgeplate and say, it could be on the platform or it could be on the car. But if you write it for the car and you write it essentially, you then are dealing with a car device and you don't have to deal with this issue of whether you are going to regulate platforms. >> MARILYN GOLDEN: Thank you. So, we will

-- these I think could be two lifts like F retractable edges and the ramps and bridg eplates are a different list of things. They are not

-- because they could beused with multiple methods. >> CHRISTOPHER HART: Chris Hart public member. It may also be conceivable that the committee may want to discuss whether even when there is a statio n
- based solution whether or not one or more cars may need to carry a bridgeplate or onboard lift. For instance, when the neighborhood kids decide to steal your bridgeplate off the platform, every time you don't have a bridgeplate at rural Iowa station X h ow you get people on and off. >> MARILYN GOLDEN: I see. >> CHRISTOPHER HART: So that may be something folks want to think about as well. >> MARILYN GOLDEN: Okay. >> Yeah Frank and Jim. >> FRANK MALDARI: Going through I think when looking at the rule it was organized really well as it is level boarding means you don't have to do anything else, and if you don't meet level boarding then you have to employ ramps and bridge plates or lifts whether the platform moves and results in a bridgeplate which is what Amt rak showed up yesterday I don't see that any different than what is the requirement for ramps and bridgeplates. Whether it's a mini high platform, it's

-- that needs a ramp for a bridge plate or platformthat results level boarding. I think the way it's

organized now is really pretty good ramps and bridgeplates north to get on the equipment you need ramps bridgeplates or a lift. Otherwise it's level boarding. How you get to that point is not as important as what you do when you get

-- when you figure ou t how it's going to be accommodated. Moving platforms I think are scary in my mind. I don't know you want to regulate it it looks like an amusement park kind of ride. I don't think you want to put something in for commuter agencies or transportation age ncies to look at moving platforms. Outside of that I think the way it's organized is actually pretty good. And everything that you need to specify could be in those three categories. >> CHRISTOPHER HART: Frank, correct me

-- >> MARILYN GOLDEN: I had Jim after that sorry. >> CHRISTOPHER HART: Frank, correct me if I am wrong does MTA not have a moving platform down at the it's not installed at after Wall Street one one of those >> South Perry. >> JIM WEISMAN: Also 14th Street. >> CHRISTOPHER HART:. >> FRANK MALDARI: When you say moving platform it's not moving it's not moving with the train. It'snot

-- yeah it's not moving in the sense that it's like an

amusement park ride it's a platform that actually moves.
>> Bob Reuter: A couple of cities are talking about putting it in.
>> It's a retractable edge that's right. >> (inaudible). >> FRANK MALDARI: Right. Exactly. You are not you are not moving on a moving platform. You are moving on a platform that has moved before you got there. >> There is at least t hree cities talking about putting in transit with these moving platforms. >> MARILYN GOLDEN: Jim you had your hand up. >> JIM WEISMAN: No that's fine. >> MARILYN GOLDEN: David? >> David Nelson: Okay. Now, I do know there is one commuter train out in Cali fornia, I want to say it's the coast sounder or something like that but they have moving platforms and what they do is in the morning they move it out into position for passenger rails to get on and off they leave it out and then in the evening, after the last train they retract it back so that way the freight railroads can use the track overnight. >> That's the coaster. >> MARILYN GOLDEN: There are a number of types ofplatforms that may move at different times but that's

-- >> DENNIS CANNON: The differenc e between the ones that we are talking about where the platform moves along is people are on it while it's moving. >> MARILYN GOLDEN: We get that. >> DENNIS CANNON: It's not the same thing as the retractable thing put in place secondly I want to remind

eve rybody there is a separate section of the rule which is going to be, where

-- I don't know where it will be put that says if you are not a system that's listed in this above, you have to tell what the accessibility option is and provide that information to DOT and the Access Board who will then authorize that as the accessible thing we don't have to deal with the oddball stuff, that's already taken care of in a provision that says, anything else that doesn't fit in these categories, you have to tell us what you are going to do to make it accessible. And it has to be presented to DOT and Access Board for them to bless it or whatever. >> MARILYN GOLDEN: That's the equivalent facilitation >> It's similar but not the same as equivalent facilitation. >> MARILYN GOLDEN: Okay.>> MELISSA ANDERSON: I think we are in the early

stages of things I would like to see everything left on the table for now it may fall out in the end or we may all learn something really new and different. >> MARILYN GOLDEN: So, as Melissa po inted out we reviewed the current law and regulations already at the first meeting. We could pull that up if we needed. If people don't remember. For each of these we have to perhaps identify what aspects of them need to be regulated and what and in ways that are different from current standards. Do. So, that's one thing that

-- the goal of our discussion this afternoon could be. >> DENNIS CANNON: I didn't get an answer on the earlier proposal thing yet. Everybody feel

-- >> That was the simplistic ap proach to how we deal with gaps and we base what we do based on the gap. >> DENNIS CANNON: Basically say when the gap exceeds X horizontally vertically you have to do something.
>> Right. >> DENNIS CANNON: And then pick which one of these things works or s et priorities for them like first would be ramp or bridgeplate and then maybe car born lifts would be second and then way down the list wouldbe portable lifts and things like that. >> One of the major points was not to

-- I'm sorry Ed Hoff not to confuse the issue with whether or not it's a brand new station, existing station, brand new vehicle existing vehicle we are talking about brand new vehicles anyhow we need to talk about the gap.
>> We will have new cars at old stations for a long time. The other issue, the specific one I mentioned was, wherever the gap exceeds 2 inches which is smaller than the current 3 inch. >> ED HOFF: The 2 inches you didn't dream up that came from someplace? >> DENNIS CANNON: Pardon me? >> ED HOFF: You didn't dream up the 2 inch number. >> DENNIS CANNON: Sure I did I dreamed up all of this stuff. (LAUGHTER) >> ED HOFF: You came up with Ed Steinfeld and figured out a scientific method. >> DENNIS CANNON: We were told when bringing the reg the best you could do is 2 inches t here was conversation about wheel wear and sway. We know for example in the two Metro systems MARTA and WMATA they have retro fitted their carsMARTA built a build on sill extension that gets it down

to 2 inches they have no problems

-- we were told they

would be ripped off the platform it hasn't happened. WMATA included a hard rubber extrusion along the door sill of the cars here to reduce the gap further. We know that 2 inches is doable. In the rail system

-- in the inter

- city rail and commuter rail we said 4 inches and then we had 1 and a half vertical and a lot of different things that then had an exception that said if you can't do this for the platform do something else. And people, designers and operators looked at the regulations and got fixated on the minimum gap, and started going ballistic we can't do that we can't do that. The idea of the phrasing of the provision and then exception is based on building codes. Engineers did like that. They are used to doing things differently. So, part of the reason to get around that fixation is to say we don't care what the gap is. If it's bigger than 2 inches do something else. Whatever. And pick the things that you want to do. And I think 2 inches is just fine, it eliminates the problem with railroad saying that we can't do 4 because it doesn't say you have to do X it says if it's bigger than this you put a bridgeplate which is in fact what virtually every rail system already does. Theyput a bridgeplate on all of their cars. So, let's just let

the m do that. >> ED HOFF: Ed Hoff in support of that. I agree. It doesn't need to be so precise simply we know that the largest allowable horizontal gap at present in the built environment is 2 and a half inches in transportation that's the flange way of th e rail. At grade crossings. So not that that should be any standard we don't want to come close to that 2 inches I suggest is probably good. We know of course people are going to have problems with as was mentioned yesterday caster wheels getting smalle r and wheels dropping down into them could be problematic. Could we go smaller than 2 inches perhaps. 2 inches from a layperson without scientifically analyzing the issue seems reasonable. >> CHRISTOPHER HART: Josh has had his hand output a while. >> JOS H CORAN: I

-- >> LINDA MARTIN: Linda Martin I have a comment. >> JOSH CORAN: Go ahead, Linda. >> LINDA MARTIN: My comment was only that I heard somebody say, I think Dennis I am not sure that there

-- we set a minimum there not be a maximum. There is actu ally a maximum to be called level boardingat least in part 37 it's not in Part 38. It says basically

that level boarding is no more than a 10 inch gap and then it's really something else. Or at least 10 inches on straight track. So, there is a maximum set at least to be called level boarding. So I just wanted to point that out. >> JIM WEISMAN: Horizontally. >> Yeah. >> LINDA MARTIN: I mean mainly that's safety for people stepping across gaps. >> to be clear that's tangent track with track curvature and center doors you do sometimes exceed that in existing conditions. I mean

-- >> LINDA MARTIN: Right you do. It's 13 on curved track but the idea is if it's bigger than that you are supposed to mitigate it somehow. >> MARILYN GOLDEN: Gary? >> LINDA MARTIN : That's not for wheelchairs it's the reality of inter

- city rail and some of you in the room realize. >> JOSH CORAN: I was going to make a point >> MARILYN GOLDEN: Up to 13 for Linda >> JOSH CORAN: I was going to make a point now I have to ask a question. I thought we were only allowing 2 inches instead of 3 inches now I am hearing 10inches. So I am totally confused. (inaudible) The point that I wanted to make there is a huge difference between 2 inches and 3 inches in transit 2 is practical all trains stop at one station. I worked at Illinois central it's commuter with level boarding they have zone type trains during rush hour a lot of trains rush through stations without stopping 73 miles an hour 3 inches is necessary for the speeds. 2 inches you

oc casionally have things hitting each other. >> DENNIS CANNON: It doesn't limit T. it doesn't say you have to maintain 2 or 3 inches it says when it exceeds that you put a bridgeplate in. >> JOSH CORAN: If we said 2 inches on the Illinois central every train has to stop three times as long while bridgeplate is deployed while change the service

-- >> DENNIS CANNON: You don't do a bridgeplate now. >> JOSH CORAN: I don't know what they do now I left employment in 1972. So things may have changed, I don't know. >> CHRISTOPHER HART: We got Gary we got Jim Bob I am helping Marilyn because she can't see everyone. >> MARILYN GOLDEN: I can see in the signs >> CHRISTOPHER HART: Did Andre

-- was that your hand?>> Thank you, Madam Chair. Gary Talbot, Amtrak. I

just want to comment if it's greater than 2 inches you have to do something. Because I understand what Dennis is saying and I am really not taking exception to it other than to say, I would hate to see that if that's all the rule says, then somebody can just have a 3 inch gap and say well you have to use bridgeplate and you are stuck. Anybody needing less than you know less than that is going to have to wait and have a bridgeplate deployed even on like a rapid you know heavy rail or something like that. So, I understand the thought there I think it's a good one but there has to be

-- you have to get to 2 inches and less like heavy rail we are not waiting around for bridgeplate stalling everything out and n ot being able to use that form of transportation. Because I would be very

-- I would ask the committee to really consider that. I think it would be a real missed opportunity to leave it hanging thanks. >> MARILYN GOLDEN: I would love to see a writing
out of that principle that's important. Jim? >> JIM WEISMAN: My comment was

-- >> CHRISTOPHER HART: Jim, you are always on. >> JIM WEISMAN: My comment was very similar. I don't want to the rule

-- it can work a couple of ways. Iwas thinking in that way th en I was thinking of the ways

wait you need a bridgeplate. Because

-- >> We have been in trouble on that bus you can't hold anybody hostage if I can step over the gap I don't care you can't hold me hosage on board of the vehicle. It's not something that you could dictate to the customers that you may or may not go over

-- if a custom wants to get off and use manual wheelchair they want to get off at a station low level platform and take the wheelchair down by themselves with assistance nothing I can do to keep that from happening a 3 inch gap I can't stop anybody from going across a 3 inch gap. >> JIM WEISMAN: The other point is has to be written so that people

-- I can't articulate what I want to say. (LAUGHTER) >> JIM WEISMAN: It has to be written so whatever reads it realizes that 2 inches or less theoretically is the ideal. But that we know that in the world there is problems way bigger than that. And that your train is going to solve that problem. Your device is going to solve the way bigger than that problem. >> Bob Reuter. I think Dennis has it right in that you say 2 inches or less or you do something then you putin the caveat that used to be on the buses nothing in

this provision prevents someone from using it if they can. If it doesn't mee t this. I know I

-- I mean I know Bob Carlson and I go over more than 2 inches on a regular basis. >> CHRISTOPHER HART: Just as a reminder for those of you on the phone please mute your lines. Folks on the phone please mute your lines. >> Yeah, we have a conversation >> Paul are you able to mute the person talking? >> PAUL BEATTY: No.
>> I can attempt to at this time >> Whoever is talking. >> I don't have anyone on the line just a moment. (Discussion off record.)

>> Melissa, could you add greater than 2 inches but individual can elect not to use it or not be held hostage as Ed put it. No hostages on the rail. >> MARSHA MAZZ: Marilyn, we don't put that kind of thing in the rules anymore. That

-- that policy directive belongs to DOT. It's up to DOT to s ay >> MARILYN GOLDEN: That's a good point if it's not going to go to the Access Board rule we don't need towrite it down.
>> But if we think it's important want to recommend to DOT we can't just don't spend a lot of time on it. >> MARSHA MAZZ: You can rec ommend anything you want to DOT >> DENNIS CANNON: When the guidelines are finalized they will be adopted in DOT in its own rulemaking section in which case it will have public comments. So issues that have do do with what DOT should or should not do chang e or implement or whatever can be addressed to DOT at the time it does that rulemaking. >> MARSHA MAZZ: Again, they are just not going to go in our rules. >> MARILYN GOLDEN: Got it. >> This is Robert Carlson do we need to say something if you don't meet the 2 inch dimension and use your either combinations that you have to get an okay to do that as back up? Because otherwise, you could say

-- they just say well we are going to do 10 inches and bridgeplates all the time. So, if they can't meet the 2 inch dimension they have to make a case for it? And prove it? >> DENNIS CANNON: No, the way I did it is if theydon't get 2 inches they have to do something like a

bridgeplate a lift whatever period. Because you said the

-- you set the specifications for what those things are what you bridgeplate looks like, how wide it is, how long it is, and all of that stuff.
>> But we don't want to get into saying they could just opt to do a 4 inch gap and do a plate therefore don't do anything but build plates and make p eople use them. >> LINDA MARTIN: This is Linda, a comment. >> CHRISTOPHER HART: Linda, go ahead. >> LINDA MARTIN: My comment is I think part of the difficulty here is trying to mash all kinds of rail together. You know, I think for the WMATA of the world that keeps getting mentioned there is a different capability and with inter

- city rail at least there are much more complicating factors involved. And it could be that we should still be considering, you know, a section for light rail WMATA light rail, oth er kinds of straight rail. And then a section for commuter and inter

- city. I am not saying that we have to I am just saying that maybe we are try to go fit square pegs into round holes here. The other thing th at I wanted to offer is if I could get someone from FRA to come talk to this group or thelarger group, whichever about station

- based issues with

platforms and compatibility with rail cars and issues related to wheel wear and track wear and the kinds of

co mplicating factors in that I don't think that we have had that sort of training yet because we have been focusing on equipment. But if that would be useful I can offer up someone who could do that >> MARILYN GOLDEN: It might be useful. Frank.
>> I though t Dick Cogswell wrote something about that. >> LINDA MARTIN: He did. He was actually who I was going to suggest to spend a little bit of time and talk to the group if you wanted him to or (inaudible) passenger rail but

-- >> MARILYN GOLDEN: We do. Anythi ng else he wants
to comment on too. >> FRANK MALDARI: I had one more comment with respect to 2 and the 4 at the Long Island, we went through effort to reduce the gap where we could. The only place we had option to get it close to 2 inches terminal platfor ms where it's slow and controlled environment the best we could get was 3 inches. So, in other areas, you know, we are kind of stuck with larger numbers due to being outdoors in an environment withfreight traffic. There is only so much you can do to the

cars they do move there is the level in the track maintained only to a certain degree you don't want to be hitting platforms doing 80 miles an hour. From the perspective of do this or have a mitigating solution, I think it's a great idea, you know, but t he 2 inches to me is more than I think we could do and maybe most commuter agencies I would like the number to be more justifiable I guess would be nice. You know, I he know the wheels are getting smaller but some wheels are big some are small. If there was a more defensible number it would be nice other than this is the best we could have done you know with any system right now, and in order for you to move freely, is 2 inches the right number? I am not sure it is I don't know if there is any study talk ing about what the minimum gap the smallest wheel can go over the smallest wheel you expect to see on a wheelchair. >> CHRISTOPHER HART: Let me point out in the regs where that's at (inaudible) I am going to point out when you look at the requirements, we actually say to minimize the (inaudible). Now, most people who may have a (inaudible) seems to gloss over that language. And then you have got the construction, guess what youare over
-- a reason why traditionally things like

(inaudible) have that littl e bit of language that says always try to minimize. Because in fact you know,

over time there is variance. Now, that said, and I know Marsha wants to jump in I am going to (inaudible) in Boston they have a great deal of effort working at gap mitigation. What we discovered was that the way we were maintaining the track in the station was akin to the same level of maintenance as you would have in a turn out yard because we were presuming that the subway cars were coming at a relatively slow speed and there fore the fact that the track was a little bit out of vertical or horizontal wasn't necessarily that big a deal. Once we actually started to inspect the track more often, and bring it back into its original design alignment, a lot of our gap issues became much smaller gap issues. And so, there is both a physical issue a maintenance issue. The final point that I would just note, and put to Josh and car builders to speak to is in Europe it is very common to have popped out steps and gap filling devices. Th e Department of Transportation in the UK, there did a huge study looking at (inaudible) coming on and off of trains in the UK not in the underground but in commuter rail service because, as you know, it's not aplatform in the UK that is straight. (LAU GHTER) >> CHRISTOPHER HART: Almost every one of those is super elevated on a curve. So, just more things to think about going down the road. There has been a lot of progress I think IRE or (inaudible) equipment manufacturers now provide doors to some automatic pop out plates as well. So, folks need to think about that long

- term. >> JIM WEISMAN: Marilyn, I just want today ask a question to follow up on what Frank said you were saying 2 is hard 3 you can do is the max the best that you can do. I was curio us why that is? Is that because of the freight using it or is it because of the wheel wear? Steel wheels, it's different the car sways what is it exactly? >> FRANK MALDARI: Good question. You hit on some of the points there. You do have motion this is Frank again you have motion between the car body and truck that has to be allowed in addition to that there is motion between the wheel and the rail. The motion between the wheel and rail varies depending on the wheel condition the rail condition and the alignment of the track and the gauge. So, there is a lot of factors inthere. And even, you know, try to go pay attention to as

much as you can, you still have some limitations. And the limitations to us added up to 3 inches is about the best we can do without having a very real concern about hitting the platform. And you know, like Chris said, if you are not focusing on it, there is usually opportunity to do something better. And we found that out by putting more of an effort into it because we have p roblems with gap accidents, and you know, you can do only so much before it becomes more risky to get closer than it is to stay a little further away and use a bridgeplate. You trying to mitigate the risk from you know the train kitting

-- hitting the platform or somebody getting injured the same as you are to making the person being able to get in the train. >> JIM WEISMAN: Is there a difference between the new systems and the old systems with regard to gap mitigation? The new systems can get closer than the old ones? >> FRANK MALDARI: Well, as a system you can look at it differently. When you are separating on sheer track on old, old systems and it's different. I mean outdoors is different than indoors depending if you are doing 125 miles an hour you a re maintaining the track goodbecause you have to do 125 miles an hour maybe it

gives you more opportunity. But, you know, when you are going through at high speed and there is rocking motions that occur the last thing you want is a train hitting the platform not scheduled to stop there. Even when it is that's a scary situation you want to avoid that at all costs. >> Blair. from Amtrak. You have the tolerance between the truck itself and the car body. There is hard stops in there. And then you have the relationship as you said between the wheels and the rail. And when a train comes to a stop, it doesn't

-- the theoretical place a train ends up perfectly in the middle of the track that's the geometry of the wheels and rail. When it comes to a stop it d oesn't always end up in that good spot. And that is created problems where we have had gap incidents in the past. And the regulations about platform setbacks and things change as you go into curves. And most of those numbers are not written they are the opposite of what you think for boarding the train. They are not written to minimize the gap. They

are
-- or yeah minimize the gap. They are minimum setbacks typically. So, in the freight railroad world or you know shared track situation that's as clos e as youcan get. And you get further away well that's okay you

are better assured unfortunately that's the opposite of where we want to go with closing gaps on rail, on the platforms. >> This is David Nelson here. I have two questions. So, at airports, the people movers they have those type of glass walls where you stand waiting for the door to open. Is there any type of heavy rail out there in the world that does that type of glass door? >> Yes.
>> David Nelson: Okay. If you could let me know what i t is that does that and then, also, a question to Josh. What is the measurement from top of rail to the floor of the Talgo car? >> JOSH CORAN: This is Josh. The new Talgos that are going in service in Oregon 760 millimeters which is about 30 inches it's a UIC European standard. The old cars those are about 24 inches. So we have even in Talgo we have variation. >> David Nelson: Wow that creates a problem for level boarding. >> MARILYN GOLDEN: No kidding. >> CHRISTOPHER HART: David? In regards to yourqu estion, about platform screens, I use commonly in

Asia and in some systems in Europe, there is set in the I believe a couple systems that integrated gap fillers into that platform screen device because obviously it can be ease yes, sir for the

-- from the equipment standpoint to integrate that gap into a fixed object

-- that gap filler into a fixed object as opposed to an unfixed object. In the U.S. the only time you see platform screens is at Disney or at like at the airport on the people movers.
>> DENNIS CANNON: Platform screens are typically used on people movers and so forth. There is at least I believe it's either Lenin grad or Moscow rapid rail system with platform screens that's the only

-- >> CHRISTOPHER HART: Paris Tokyo, they are all

over. >> DENNIS CANNON: Mostly they are used on slower speed device. Getting back to the issue about how

-- what

-- how close you can get. And the whole issue I was proposing is to not say that you have to decrease the gap. It just says, if it's bigger than t his, we don't care what it is you have to put a bridgeplate on. My question is: If you

-- you said you had bigger gaps in some of your stations, don't you use bridgeplates? >> FRANK MALDARI: Yeah, we do. I agree Dennis.>> DENNIS CANNON: That's all I wa s trying

-- not to

set a maximum and say that you have to get to 2 inches. That's what the way

-- that's the way the current regulation is being written or read because it says maximum 4 inch and people are freaking out because they can't get there. And my issue is, don't set the maximum. Don't say, you have to get to within X dimension, only say if it's bigger than X dimension you have to do something else. If somebody wants to, you know, pop a wheely and zip across

-- across a 4 inch gap I don't see a problem with that. You don't deploy bridgeplates typically unless you have got somebody in the chair who is actually getting on or off that's the only time you need the bridgeplates. You don't stick them down there for every stop and every door so my is sue was to try to get away from this issue of saying you have to get to within some specific distance of the platforms. >> MARILYN GOLDEN: We don't want to set up incentives or something encourage reduction of the gap? >> DENNIS CANNON: Pardon me? >> MARILYN GOLDEN: You don't want to set up something that encourages reduction of the gap.
>> I think he can you don't need incentives.>> DENNIS CANNON: The whole issue is that does

encourage reduction of the gap because if you figure out a way to do it, then yo u don't have to do anything. So, if you are

-- you know, you don't wanted the conduct you are to put a bridgeplate don't and you can figure out an automatic gap closer you are golden. >> FRANK MALDARI: This is Frank. Again, the smallest gap is best for everybody trying to traverse it. Yeah, there is already a big safety incentive to make the gap as small as possible we are doing that. I think Dennis' idea is a very smart one that you are trying to get people on and off the train safely, if you can do it , fine. If you can't, then you find a bridgeplate or you find some other mean toss get him on and off the train safely. It's the key. It's a functional

-- you need the to function to be able to get on and off the train safely and that's the most importa nt thing. >> MARILYN GOLDEN: If you can't reduce the gap to a very small one, then the price that has to be paid is use of a bridgeplate which requires staff, it's a device, so it's

more
-- more to do. >> FRANK MALDARI: Right. There is an incentive there to avoid that. >> DENNIS CANNON: There is incidentally UVA is on itthere is a TRB study currently underway to develop a

guide book for how to prevent problems and injuries for the gap more than just mind the gap like they do in the UK but actually reducin g gap things UVA is on it and (inaudible) in in Portland adds UWE mentioned there is discussions at the APTA commuter rail something technical committee. There is currently a project that is developing a guide book that's going to give you a bunch of different things to mitigate the gap provision. >> MARILYN GOLDEN: Good Gary. >> Gary Talbot: Thank you, Madam Chair. Gary Talbot, Amtrak. I will just share my opinion on it. The bridgeplate in this discussion feels like the station

- based mobile lift in ou r current rule. And what I mean by that is, let's say you have a gap and it's wide enough that, you know, maybe somebody in a chair especially a power chair might not be able to get across. We will say put down a bridgeplate why wouldn't you put down a g ap filling device we do it all over the place you have movable platform edges muni does it they have one. They do it in New York. We wrote it into the vehicle specifications in Boston for the new heavy rail cars. I mean I just don't understand why you j ust

-- a bridgeplate, you may not be able to find somebody,maybe somebody takes the risk and shouldn't now they

get hurt or stuck and the train can't get after the train because they can't find the plate or a person to help you those are the real life iss ues we deal with today I hate in a Brant new rule if it's greater than this put down a bridgeplate. There are cases when you need a bridgeplate and but it just seems like you know, if I could work on the car with Blair and make changes to our cars, boy I would tell you I would love to try to put something on there that eat the gap up and do stuff that just happens maybe you push a button you don't have to wait and have somebody walk 450 foot to grab a plate. >> DENNIS CANNON: That's part of the requirement

. If you could figure out how to get the gap down to 2 inches you don't have to do a bridgeplate.
>> You say after the push the (inaudible) not before you push the plug. >> Gary Talbot: I am saying why just 2 inches or less you are good I love that but g reater than 2 inches bridgeplate why not the committee require something other than just a bridgeplate. >> DENNIS CANNON: Greater than 2 inches do something>> Gary Talbot: I understand that it's back to the

current rule for me with station

- based mobile l ifts. You know, if you have freight traffic, and if you don't own the right

- of

-way you can do one of these four or five things in the last one on the list not prioritized is station based mobile lift guess what we do station base mobile lifts. >> MARILYN GOLDEN: Right. For reasons that we know. But I think your idea that there is a way to require something that's automatic, that doesn't require a human

- based solution everyone is ahead. To have that. What are those? What are the different devices for
t hat. >> Gary Talbot: If I could madam chair Gary Talbot Amtrak. You have different CAM

- based devices fold out underneath the door they do that in muni it eats the gap up basically that's what Chris and I worked on in Boston you have a platform edge I bel ieve Kyle found it might be Long Island I know it's in the MTA system that shoots out just translates out and fills the void. And then before the train takes off it just retracts it. So, you know, it could be platform based it could be vehicle based. Bu t to your point, you hit the nail on the head Marilyn no human interaction no human interventionnecessary. It's all new stuff. >> FRANK MALDARI: Could I make a quick comment. >> MARILYN GOLDEN: Marsha Frank Bob. >> MARSHA MAZZ: Just point of information. There is nothing to prevent you from prioritizing your recommendations and suggesting some kind of priority where, you know, the covered entity would be required to attempt to do one if they can't do one they do two if they can't do 3 then they do Andrae a nal sis. You know, showing that they can't do one of the other options. So, that's certainly something that you could recommend if you so chose. >> MARILYN GOLDEN: Very good. >> FRANK MALDARI: Just a quick comment to what Gary was saying. The concept of having a device move out automatically filling a gap is an easy concept to understand it's a very difficult concept to implement safely. And reliably under all weather conditions. I can understand why you would want it to happen. But there are significant risks associated with it not coming out what it's supposed to. Getting stuck out when it's not supposed to. Not working properly. There have been accidents with movable platforms that are much worse than much worse consequences

-- much worseconse quences than you might imagine. These

mechanical devices are risky. If there is one person two people getting off the train it's a lot safer to have a conductor there with the bridgeplate helping them get off than automatic device that may or may not wor k at that particular station may get stuck out and hurt somebody on the platform. Just, you know, it's hard to say that you can't do something, but the reality of doing something reliably and safely is a lot more complicated than you might think. The interlocks that you would have to have to prevent the train from moving when the platform is out to stop the doors from opening when the platform is not out. Every level of complexity reduces the reliability of the system. And when you try to move a lot of people quickly, and one delayed train winds up with other people stuck on a train for hours creates a big problem. So, you know, you got to understand too you are trying to move a lot of people quickly but most importantly safely. And that's where we nee d to keep our focus. >> CHRISTOPHER HART: Frank, it's 20 minutes to 3. And I want folks to be conscious of that. And I think Marilyn just point out that (inaudible) safety issues but giving it a New York MTA operate some of these typesof devices already 24/7, clearly both New York MTA and

London which also has one of these has begun to figure out how to address some of these issues. Finally, I think it's worthwhile to note that overall, if I (inaudible) committee intent thus far is that we want to not look at things as specialized manner. And get into most practicable that you are trying to make recommendations instead of the widest array of users. So,

-- for the widest range of users. It's 2:45, so Marilyn I don't know where you wan t to go. >> MARILYN GOLDEN: We have I know if we have public comment or what. I mean my next question would be we don't have to answer it today what are the difference success stories at automatic deployment of gap filling technologies. But that's a ques tion that can be answered another time looking at staff here for what other. Billy? >> MARSHA MAZZ: You don't need to do public comment everybody is allowed to sit the the table.
>> This is David Nelson, if I could make a comment. I don't know how many years ago but Amtrak borrowed ice cream from Germany they had that movable gap mitigation

-- unfortunately, we didn't have that as part of Acela, but I think it's fair that one of us needs to getin touch with the ice train ICE train and ask them how

reliab le it was how they dealt with different weather situations what do they do if it breaks down. And I think that you know some of the concerns that I think that those answers are already there. And they were already done by Germany. >> Bob Reuter. We don't even have to go that far Dubai opened the new light rail system which is 100% screen doorsen closed almost zero gaps Saudi Arabia almost finished using screen doors and almost zero gaps on high

- speed rail I don't know what the technology they are using b ut they are doing it because of the heat. They need screen door to keep the stations air conditioned. But they are and a friend of mine told me how tiny the gap was and everything, they use a power chair. >> This is Andre from Bombardier. I looked at Bo ston spec, as you mentioned there is gap mitigation device that's in there. So, hopefully a supplier will be tasked in designing this thing. Hopefully it comes from existing vehicle most probably from Europe I haven't seen one of those here. And I will look at what the

-- what you have done on the ICE vehicles try to find what kind of device they are using there or if it's not ICE cars it might besome other car from Europe so we will see.
>> Thank you. >> As I recall the deal with the ICE train it was a tilting train it

-- its dynamic clearance was it couldn't be as wide as a standard train so it had to have the flip out device. I remember seeing it but I couldn't tell you for my life exactly was

-- how it was doing but I remember the train stop the doo rs open the thing flipped out. But I don't remember it being

-- from platform height it being particularly level. It's been a long time since I saw that train. >> (inaudible). >> MARILYN GOLDEN: Okay. Well, I hope this has helped us develop some idea of structure for the rule. What I don't personally remember is just how different it is from what we have but I think it's quite different it's going to be a big reorganization. I don't know how much of it is going to be new hopefully something. >> MELISSA ANDERSON: Were there things that we wanted to put together or presentations that we wanted
to

-- do you have action items for the next meeting? I guess somebody mentioned I think Linda you mentioned Dick Cogswell may have a white paper he has written he may want to share with us?>> LINDA MARTIN: Yes, I am happy to ask him. I can

share the white paper, I mean

-- I don't know if he is available on the date of our next meeting or not. But I can ask him. Certainly share the document. It's already in the public record. >> MELISSA ANDERSON: Why don't you talk to him and get back to us. The other

-- were there any other action items that we want to move forward with for the next meeting? >> MARILYN GOLDEN: There should be but I don't know what they are. (LAUGHTER) >> MARSHA MAZZ: I E

- mailed Ed Steinfeld to ask him if he has any data on the caster wheel sizes I am not sure he does. If he does he can bring it forward hopefully at next meeting. >> MARILYN GOLDEN: Wheelchair caster wheels? >> MARSHA MAZZ: People were talking about the 2 in

-- >> MARILYN GOLDEN: How many wheelchairs have small casters >> MARSHA MAZZ: I don't know if Ed will know how many but how many to sample. >> MARILYN GOLDEN: Hopefully something can beextrapolated from that. >> This is An dre I will report back on the automatic gap devices. >> MARILYN GOLDEN: Just for people to bring information or you will bring some. >> Andre: Yes, I will. >> MARILYN GOLDEN: Yes Jon. >> JON HOLBROOK: I just found a file from what of my French colleagues from 2006 but it's a presentation on all kinds of European whether it's lifts, plates, automatic you know gap fillers. Lots of pictures. And what I will do is probably the smartest thing to do is send it to Paul to put it out on the site. >> MARILYN GOLD EN: That would be great. And you are writing guys are capturing all of these Mel medical action items, I missed the last one

-- >> MARILYN GOLDEN: One more time Jon is aware of a paper addressing from several years ago all of the various optional gap fill ing devices options of gap filling devices is that correct Jon? >> JON HOLBROOK: Yeah. It's a compilation of European equipment, not just all of them but everybody's everything from lifts from a bridgeplate to a lift to automatically deployed step, gap filler, it justshows a lot of different things. >> MARSHA MAZZ: Jon if you are going to obtain it from somebody else could you get permission from them for posting? >> JON HOLBROOK: Oh, yes. >> MARSHA MAZZ: I f you submit somebody else's work. >> JON HOLBROOK: It's within Austin but I will confirm it's sharable. >> MARILYN GOLDEN: Great David. >> David Nelson: I don't know about the summertime I might be going on vacation. I might be going to

-- >> Please use the mic. >> Sorry. >> With the summer coming around, I know some of us will be going on vacation people may be going to Europe and so forth but I understand everyone has a life, but I will ask that for pictures

-- sorry. If there can be video like video footage not still pictures but video footage of any type of you know gap filler retractable fillers anything like that movable platforms bridgeplates anything that you could think of if you have an opportunity to see that if you could take video footagedu ring vacations anybody go to Europe Asia that type of

thing that would be great to help with that.
>> I think the subcommittee should take a field trip. (LAUGHTER) >> to Dubai. >> I took pictures on my vacation to San Francisco I saw this bathroom I loved it and I wanted to take pictures in the bathroom, thought I was odd as well. (LAUGHTER) >> MELISSA ANDERSON: Okay. We have the next meeting date, would everyone like to get together for a subcommittee call on April 24th or do you want to wait unti l May 22nd? Who says April 24? >> MARILYN GOLDEN: I don't think I can do it. >> MELISSA ANDERSON: Okay. You says May 22nd. >> MARILYN GOLDEN: I can't do April 24. I can grab somebody to do it. >> We should have Stan, we really should have. (LAUGHTER) >> MELISSA ANDERSON: We have a lot of action items, if we do May 22nd that gives people a chance to get their things together and we will have a rail good productive meeting in May then. >> FRANK MALDARI: I had a suggestion anybody whois gathering information on these gap devices, it would

be very, very helpful to know, you know, what kind of a system it's on, what the volume of passengers are, and environment. Any additional information that you can get as far as how well it's actually working, would be very helpful to understand what its capabilities are.
>> The operating characteristics of the system is important. >> ED HOFF: Also it depends who you ask, ask a crew member. In addition to, perhaps, the authority because I found out things from SEPTA that were not necessarily well

- known by the supervisors and the people that run the system. >> MARILYN GOLDEN: We are going to rely on Ed for undercover

-- for story that the transit agency itself may not want told. (LAUGHTER) there are all those leve ls (Discussion off record.) >> MARILYN GOLDEN: We can fix the world in 5 minutes. Okay. I am getting calls for a gavel. The gavel has sounded. Thank you for this very helpful opening meeting. All suggestions welcome.
>> BILLY ALTOM: One last thing. Publicly, for the record Marilyn, thank you for chairing the committee wewill do wonderful on all of our committees thank you for

being here this week. Adios amigos. >> CHRISTOPHER HART: All we look forward to your continue d involvement. (End of meeting.)