U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE

26–872 WASHINGTON : 2018

S. HRG. 115–368 

FEDERAL AND NONFEDERAL COLLABORATION, 

INCLUDING THROUGH THE USE OF TECHNOLOGY, TO REDUCE WILDLAND FIRE RISK 

TO COMMUNITIES AND ENHANCE FIREFIGHTING SAFETY AND EFFECTIVENESS 

HEARING 

BEFORE THE 

COMMITTEE ON 

ENERGY AND NATURAL RESOURCES 

UNITED STATES SENATE 

ONE HUNDRED FIFTEENTH CONGRESS 

FIRST SESSION 

AUGUST 3, 2017 

( 

Printed for the use of the 

Committee on Energy and Natural Resources 

Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.govinfo.gov 
(II) 

COMMITTEE ON ENERGY AND NATURAL RESOURCES 

LISA MURKOWSKI, Alaska, Chairman 

JOHN BARRASSO, Wyoming 

JAMES E. RISCH, Idaho 

MIKE LEE, Utah 

JEFF FLAKE, Arizona 

STEVE DAINES, Montana 

CORY GARDNER, Colorado 

LAMAR ALEXANDER, Tennessee 

JOHN HOEVEN, North Dakota 

BILL CASSIDY, Louisiana 

ROB PORTMAN, Ohio 

LUTHER STRANGE, Alabama 

MARIA CANTWELL, Washington 

RON WYDEN, Oregon 

BERNARD SANDERS, Vermont 

DEBBIE STABENOW, Michigan 

AL FRANKEN, Minnesota 

JOE MANCHIN III, West Virginia 

MARTIN HEINRICH, New Mexico 

MAZIE K. HIRONO, Hawaii 

ANGUS S. KING, JR., Maine 

TAMMY DUCKWORTH, Illinois 

CATHERINE CORTEZ MASTO, Nevada 

COLIN HAYES, Staff Director 

PATRICK J. MCCORMICK III, Chief Counsel 

LUCY MURFITT, Senior Counsel and Public Lands & Natural Resources Policy Director 

ANGELA BECKER-DIPPMANN, Democratic Staff Director 

SAM E. FOWLER, Democratic Chief Counsel 

BRYAN PETIT, Democratic Senior Professional Staff Member 
(III) 

C O N T E N T S 

OPENING STATEMENTS 

Page 

Murkowski, Hon. Lisa, Chairman and a U.S. Senator from Alaska .................. 1 

Cantwell, Hon. Maria, Ranking Member and a U.S. Senator from Washington .................................................................................................................... 3 

Stabenow, Hon. Debbie, a U.S. Senator from Michigan ...................................... 5 

WITNESSES 

Christiansen, Victoria C., Deputy Chief, State and Private Forestry, Forest 

Service, U.S. Department of Agriculture ........................................................... 5 

Rice, Bryan, Director, Office of Wildland Fire, U.S. Department of the Interior ......................................................................................................................... 15 

Maisch, John ‘‘Chris’’, Alaska State Forester and Director, Division of Forestry, Alaska Department of Natural Resources ............................................... 24 

King, Steve, Economic Development Director, City of Wenatchee, Washington .................................................................................................................... 36 

Miller, Dr. Mary Ellen, Research Engineer, Michigan Tech Research Institute ........................................................................................................................ 44 

ALPHABETICAL LISTING AND APPENDIX MATERIAL SUBMITTED 

Cantwell, Hon. Maria: 

Opening Statement ........................................................................................... 3 

USA Today article by Robin Will dated June 11, 2015 entitled ‘‘St. Marks 

Refuge staffer wins Fire Safety Award’’ ...................................................... 81 

Map issued August 1, 2017 and produced by Predictive Services, National 

Interagency Fire Center entitled ‘‘Significant Wildland Fire Potential 

Outlook—August 2017’’ ................................................................................ 83 

Christiansen, Victoria C.: 

Opening Statement ........................................................................................... 5 

Written Testimony ............................................................................................ 8 

Responses to Questions for the Record ........................................................... 87 

Daines, Hon. Steve: 

Map issued August 1, 2017 and produced by Predictive Services, National 

Interagency Fire Center entitled ‘‘Significant Wildland Fire Potential 

Outlook—September 2017’’ .......................................................................... 61 

King, Steve: 

Opening Statement ........................................................................................... 36 

Written Testimony ............................................................................................ 39 

Maisch, Chris: 

Opening Statement ........................................................................................... 24 

Written Testimony ............................................................................................ 27 
Page

IV 

Miller, Dr. Mary Ellen: 

Opening Statement ........................................................................................... 44 

Written Testimony ............................................................................................ 46 

Responses to Questions for the Record ........................................................... 98 

Murkowski, Hon. Lisa: 

Opening Statement ........................................................................................... 1 

Rice, Bryan: 

Opening Statement ........................................................................................... 15 

Written Testimony ............................................................................................ 17 

Responses to Questions for the Record ........................................................... 92 

Stabenow, Hon. Debbie: 

Opening Statement ........................................................................................... 5 

Wyden, Hon. Ron, et al.: 

Letter of Support for the Crapo/Brown Proposal ........................................... 65 
(1) 

FEDERAL AND NONFEDERAL COLLABORATION, INCLUDING THROUGH THE USE OF 

TECHNOLOGY, TO REDUCE WILDLAND FIRE 

RISK TO COMMUNITIES AND ENHANCE 

FIREFIGHTING SAFETY AND EFFECTIVENESS 

THURSDAY, AUGUST 3, 2017 

U.S. SENATE, 

COMMITTEE ON ENERGY AND NATURAL RESOURCES, 

Washington, DC. 

The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:03 a.m. in Room 

SD–366, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. Lisa Murkowski, 

Chairman of the Committee, presiding. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. LISA MURKOWSKI, 

U.S. SENATOR FROM ALASKA 

The CHAIRMAN. Good morning. The Committee will come to 

order. 

We are here today to take a look at wildfire, to examine our wildfire management programs, the collaboration that is required to reduce risks to firefighters, communities, and resources and some of 

the emerging technologies that are changing the way that fires are 

managed. 

We are now well into the 2017 fire season. It is certainly a very 

active one. My friend from Montana, I think, is going to share some 

of what is happening in his state this morning, and I think it is 

appropriate to recognize the heroic acts of the men and women who 

fight these fires throughout the season and to recognize the loss of 

a firefighter in Montana. 

Senator Daines. 

Senator DAINES. Madam Chair, thank you. I will talk about it in 

my remarks, but we lost a firefighter last night in Montana. 

The CHAIRMAN. So I understand. 

Senator DAINES. It is our second fatality in two weeks in Montana of firefighters. 

The CHAIRMAN. Well, know that our hearts and our prayers are 

with the families, but again this speaks to the realities that we 

face with wildland fires and with fires around the country, that 

this is dangerous and unpredictable work. Again, our thoughts and 

our prayers are with those who are serving. 

As of August 1st, nearly 39,000 fires have burned almost 5.5 million acres of land. For comparison’s sake, this is an area about the 
2 

size of the State of New Hampshire. In Alaska, we have had a low 

fire year this year, we have had more than 300 fires burning about 

630,000 acres. It is a lot of land, but it is below normal for us in 

Alaska, so we are certainly not complaining. Just two years ago, 

back in 2015, over 5 million acres burned in Alaska alone. Mr. 

Maisch, from the State of Alaska, certainly knows and understands 

this all too well. Nationally, 2015 was one of the worst seasons on 

record, stretching nearly all year and burning over 10 million acres 

in total. 

This Committee has spent a lot of time, a lot of good work, working on legislation to address the consequences of wildfire. We will 

continue that work until we arrive at legislative solutions, hopefully sooner than later. 

What we really need is a comprehensive solution that addresses 

both wildfire budgeting and forest management. We need to tackle 

both of those, at once, because we know the wildfire problem is not 

just a budgeting problem, it is also a management problem. 

Last year, our Ranking Member, Senator Cantwell, along with 

Senators Wyden, Risch, and Crapo joined me in putting forward a 

comprehensive solution to address both challenges, we called this 

the ‘‘Wildfire Budgeting, Response and Forest Management Act.’’ 

Our proposal included a fiscally responsible fix to permanently end 

the destructive practice of fire borrowing. We required Congress to 

provide resources to the agencies up front, enough to cover 100 percent of the average annual cost of firefighting over the previous 10 

years, while allowing for a limited cap adjustment when we experience those truly catastrophic years. Our proposal took steps to address the hurdles that stand in the way of implementing the fuel 

treatments needed to mitigate wildfire risk, increase firefighter 

safety and make our forests more healthy and more resilient. We 

would have increased the use of technologies, such as drones and 

GPS trackers and fire risk mapping and made needed investments 

in community wildfire protection plans as well as ‘‘Firewise programs.’’ 

We know that our wildfire strategy needs to include all of these 

important pieces of the wildfire management puzzle, and we know 

that other members on our Committee also have good ideas that 

deserve to be considered. 

While our hearing today is focused on oversight of wildfire management programs and the use of technologies, our goal is a good 

bill that will fix these problems so the President will be able to sign 

this into law. 

We came up a little bit short in the last Congress but, as we will 

hear today, fires, again, are continuing to destroy our lands. There 

is a lot more that we can do, there is a lot more that we must do, 

from budgeting to new technologies to better management practices, to save them. 

Again, I want to thank all of our witnesses for being here today, 

and I want to particularly extend my appreciation to Chris Maisch, 

Alaska’s State Forester. 

With that, I will turn to Ranking Member Cantwell for your 

opening remarks. 
3 

STATEMENT OF HON. MARIA CANTWELL, 

U.S. SENATOR FROM WASHINGTON 

Senator CANTWELL. Thank you, Madam Chair, and thanks for 

holding this hearing. 

Before I begin I, too, want to thank the over 35,000 men and 

women who fight fires everyday throughout our country. And our 

thoughts and prayers are with those in Montana who have lost 

lives and to the firefighters who are continuing to battle the blazes 

there. 

These firefighters have been working tirelessly to save homes, 

communities, people and assure that they are always there to answer the call. Their diligent work has managed to save many hundreds of residents already this year. 

The Chair mentioned our efforts in the last Congress to work 

diligently together in a bipartisan effort. I can assure all my colleagues here that there was no stone unturned, no late night not 

visited by she, myself, our staffs, the leadership in the United 

States Senate, to try to resolve the fire borrowing issue and to 

make a down payment on our fuel reduction strategies for the future. Unfortunately, we could not quite get there with our House 

colleagues. So any of you who think that you can help us get them 

to pay attention in a more serious way, we would be so grateful. 

We have come together on a bipartisan solution in the United 

States Senate to end fire borrowing and to make investments for 

the future. I hope, I certainly hope, that we can get the attention 

of the House to reinvigorate those efforts and pass it when we return later after the summer session. 

Today we are here to talk about what additional tools we can 

give firefighters. As of today, 50 percent more acres have already 

burned this year than average, and yesterday a forecast report was 

released that predicted the West is likely to experience above-normal wildfires over the next month. That shouldn’t surprise people 

since we knew exactly what’s been trending the last few years. 

While in the State of Washington, we have some fires, the rest of 

the country is seeing even more impact. So today’s hearing is about 

the tools that we can give to help decrease the risks of firefighting. 

I also want to thank Steve King for being here from Washington 

to talk about the innovative actions that the City of Wenatchee has 

been undertaking to mitigate these risks. We know all too well 

from the Thirtymile Fire, from the Carlton Complex, where over 

100,000 acres have burned up in one afternoon, how fast these fires 

can move. 

So we want to make sure that we are giving new tools to firefighters. If we are seeing a new normal, which I don’t want to 

think that it is normal because it is very, very stressful for all our 

communities. But if we are seeing a new increase because of the 

dry conditions and the abilities for fires to spread in so many more 

places, more quickly, what can technology do to help us address 

this and make us safer for the future? 

A couple of approaches that my colleague, Senator Gardner, and 

I have been working on, would make sure that we are using new 

technology and tools to help us deal with fires. That is use, for the 

first time ever, real-time wildfire mapping aircraft. That is the ability for aircraft to fly over these areas or use unmanned aerial vehi-
4 

cles (UAVs) to generate real-time mapping, depicting where the 

fires are burning. We also should make GPS locators available to 

fire crews. Wildfire Today refers to the combination of crew locations and real-time fire maps as the Holy Grail of wildland firefighting because of how it would improve the safety for our firefighters. 

This legislation we are proposing would also encourage federal 

agencies to take advantage of some of the tools that we have at 

NASA in order to speed up the planning that goes into effect to 

prevent after-the-fire flooding and erosion. These are important 

issues for us—to map these areas. 

And I know, as we look every year at NIFC’s information, working with the Forest Service, we know where our bad fire seasons 

are going to be. Not that other spots are not going to see an impact, 

because you never know where a fire is going to start, but it gives 

us information about where to cash and put resources so they are 

ready and available. 

We also want to make sure that we do better with real-time 

weather forecasting information. In the State of Washington, we 

have a gap in the central part of our state. We do not want to have 

a region of our state less-protected because they don’t have accurate weather forecasting information. We want to build on the state 

of the technology and to make sure that every community knows 

where and when it should not be sending firefighters out, given the 

weather forecast and the challenges that we face. 

So I agree with the Chair, we need to work efficiently; we need 

to work together; we need to get, as I’m sure we are going to hear 

about, the ‘‘hasty response’’ approach that has been used in the 

central part of Washington—that is to have everybody ready. Given 

the outbreaks of fires in so many locations, we would be able to 

have a hasty response. We also need to have a hasty response in 

getting this legislation over the goal line with our House of Representatives. 

So, Madam Chair, thank you for holding this important hearing. 

I thank our witnesses for being here. Again, our thoughts and 

prayers are with those families impacted by this fire season. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Senator Cantwell. 

Know that my commitment remains to help address this in a 

way that is going to be more than just, kind of, the herky jerky 

way it has been handled. The fire borrowing really limits the ability of our agencies to do the work that we need them to do, so having an approach that will yield enduring policy is, I think, what we 

are all looking for here. 

I am pleased to be able to welcome the panel this morning. We 

will have good input, and I appreciate the time that you will spend 

with us. 

We will be led off by Victoria Christiansen, who is the Deputy 

Chief for State and Private Forestry at the Forest Service at the 

Department of Agriculture. Welcome. 

Mr. Bryan Rice is the Director for the Office of Wildland Fire at 

Department of the Interior. 

I have mentioned my friend, Mr. Chris Maisch, who is a State 

Forester for the Alaska Department of Natural Resources. He is 

also here this morning wearing another hat on behalf of the Na-
5 

tional Association of State Foresters. We appreciate your leadership there. 

Mr. Steve King is the Economic Development Director for the 

City of Wenatchee, Washington. Welcome to you. 

And I understand, Senator Stabenow, you would like to introduce 

Dr. Miller. 

STATEMENT OF DEBBIE STABENOW, 

U.S. SENATOR FROM MICHIGAN 

Senator STABENOW. Thank you very much, Madam Chair. 

I first want to thank both of you for an incredibly important 

hearing. As the Ranking Democrat on Agriculture and Nutrition 

and Forestry, I want to work closely with you so that we can resolve this so that when we are doing the next Farm bill and we 

have a forestry title to focus on prevention and management, all 

the money is not transferred over to fight fires. So thank you for 

holding this hearing. 

We have tremendous expertise in Michigan. I want to introduce 

Dr. Mary Ellen Miller, who is a research engineer at Michigan 

Tech Research Institute in Ann Arbor. Michigan Tech is actually 

in the Upper Peninsula, as Senator Cantwell knows, way up in 

Houghton, Michigan, where I was not long ago meeting with them 

on these issues—a beautiful, beautiful place. But Michigan Tech is 

a leader in the use of information technology to solve security and 

infrastructure, earth science and environmental problems. With the 

help of NASA, Dr. Miller has used models and earth observations 

to predict erosion and runoff after wildfires in Colorado and California. Of course, not all of her work is high-tech. She also spends 

plenty of time out in the field with more low-tech tools like tipping 

bucket gauges and a bucket hat. 

So thank you for being with us today, Dr. Miller. We look forward to hearing your unique, scientific insights on how watersheds 

are impacted by wildfires. Welcome. 

Thank you. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Senator Stabenow. 

At this time, Ms. Christiansen, if you want to lead the panel off, 

we welcome your comments. 

STATEMENT OF VICTORIA C. CHRISTIANSEN, DEPUTY CHIEF, 

STATE AND PRIVATE FORESTRY, FOREST SERVICE, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE 

Ms. CHRISTIANSEN. Madam Chairman and Ranking Member 

Cantwell and members of the Committee, thank you for the opportunity to discuss collaboration to reduce wildfire risk. 

After the events of yesterday, a loss of one of our own, we’re all, 

our hearts are heavy and we send our condolences to our whole 

community. 

It’s a very appropriate time for this discussion. Thank you. 

My name is Vicki Christiansen, and I am the Deputy Chief of 

State and Private Forestry for the USDA Forest Service. My remarks today will be framed by the National Cohesive Wildland 

Fire Management Strategy (Cohesive Strategy), an all-lands blueprint for building synergies to address the nation’s growing wildfire 

challenges. The three goals of the Cohesive Strategy are restoring 
6 

and maintaining resilient landscapes, creating fire-adapted communities, and having an effective risk-based wildfire response. The 

Forest Service is committed to restoring and maintaining resilient 

landscapes across all jurisdictions. 

On our national forests, we achieved over three million acres of 

hazardous fuels treatments last year. We also work across boundaries with our partners. In 2006, we provided financial support to 

carry out nearly 150,000 acres of treatment on non-federal lands. 

Since 2006, we have assessed more than 3,000 fuel treatments. 

And when tested by wildfire, 90 percent of these fuel treatments 

have shown to reduce the impacts of wildfire. For example, in Arizona, the fuel treatments associated with the White Mountain 

Stewardship Project dramatically slowed the rate of spread of the 

Wallow Fire to allow firefighters to safely attack the fire and protect homes and property. 

The Forest Service collaborates with state and local partners to 

help prepare communities to withstand a wildfire. This is challenging because of the increasing development in the WildlandUrban Interface. 

We work with state partners to assist communities in developing 

community wildfire protection plans. These plans bring community 

members together to address wildfire response, hazard mitigation 

and community preparedness. 

As our risk assessment technology has developed, our capability 

to help communities reduce their risk to wildfire, has really 

evolved. For example, you will hear more from Mr. King about our 

community planning assistance for the wildfire program. 

Wildfire prevention is a critical element to working collaboratively across land ownership boundaries. Nationally, nearly nine 

out of ten wildfires are caused by humans, including some of the 

most costly fires. If we prevent unwanted, human-caused fires, we 

can proactively use our resources to create resilient landscapes, improve our response, and help communities be prepared. 

A long-standing example of federal and non-federal collaboration 

is Smokey Bear. His campaign is administered by the Forest Service, the National Association of State Foresters, and the Ad Council. Smokey will be 73 next week, and he is one of the world’s most 

recognizable characters. 

Our goal at the Forest Service is to work with partners to continuously improve our risk-based response to wildfire. No one agency has the capability or the surge capacity to respond to wildfire 

alone, so we have a collaborative approach in the U.S. It includes 

federal, state, tribal, city, county, contract, and volunteer firefighters. 

We continue to work with our cooperators and industry on 

emerging technology to help respond to the challenges of fire. The 

Forest Service invests $34 million each year in wildland fire information and technology systems, and we work very closely with the 

Department of the Interior to develop an integrated approach and 

prioritize our investments to be able to update our legacy systems. 

The central platform is the Enterprise Geospatial Portal. The 

portal provides up-to-date wildland fire situational information to 

first responders, to fire managers and the public. Through our research and development branch, we continue to collaborate with 
7 

additional partners, such as NASA, on new and emerging technologies. We also partner and DOI takes the lead on interagency 

capability on unmanned aircraft operations in wildland fire management. 

Although our missions and priorities among our partners are diverse, we are united with a common vision and set of goals defined 

by the Cohesive Strategy established to collectively address our nation’s wildland fire challenges so we can redeem our responsibilities 

to the citizens of the U.S. 

Thank you for the opportunity to discuss wildfire risk and collaboration. We look forward to working with the Committee on 

these important issues. 

[The prepared statement of Ms. Christiansen follows:] 
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The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Ms. Christiansen. 

Mr. Rice, welcome. 

STATEMENT OF BRYAN RICE, DIRECTOR, OFFICE OF 

WILDLAND FIRE, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR 

Mr. RICE. Good morning. 

Chairman Murkowski, Ranking Member Cantwell, members of 

the Committee, thank you for the opportunity to appear before you 

today and have this discussion. It’s important. Thank you for the 

opportunity to talk about the Department of the Interior’s Wildland 

Fire Program. 

First, I’d like to start by saying that we in the Department are 

saddened by yesterday’s news of the fatality in Montana. The Department of the Interior’s (DOI/Department) heartfelt condolences 

go out to the family and friends and others that are affected by this 

situation. 

Overall, we are seeing the cumulative impacts of climate variability, drought, and invasive species that are creating this situation 

that leads us to being more susceptible to large and devastating 

wildfires. So far this season, we’ve seen outbreaks across the country in numerous, if not all, of the geographic areas. 

In working through this, the National Cohesive Strategy, which 

my partner here alluded to, is the backbone of the National 

Wildland Fire Management Policy and it’s built on collaboration 

with federal, state, tribal, local, all the partners and represents a 

determined effort by the Federal Government to actively involve 

partners in planning and decision-making. 

Fuels management work, active management work, either done 

collaboratively with our partners or done directly on Department 

lands managed through each of the Bureaus within the Department of the Interior, is one of the most effective strategies for mitigating wildland fire risk. 

For example, in the Department of the Interior’s Resilient Landscapes Initiative, DOI bureaus actively engage partners at the local 

level on fuels management projects that achieve fire resiliency 

across multiple jurisdictions and broad landscapes. 

This year the Department-supported initiative has added value 

to private landowners, tribal, state, local governments, and other 

federal agencies who work hand-in-hand with the Department to 

safeguard communities. Together we continue to plan and execute 

these activities to reduce overstocked forests and woodlands, as 

well as improve the health of our rangeland landscapes. 

It’s important also to talk about the advancements in technology 

that play a critical role in many areas of the Department’s fire program. 

The use of unmanned aircraft systems (UASs) is becoming increasingly important in our day-to-day fire suppression operations. 

Interior is the government leader in research and development in 

the practical deployment of UASs for non-defense purposes. Currently, the Department uses UASs to support firefighters in the 

field through mapping of fires, use of infrared technologies, and the 

gathering of data for strategic fire planning. In addition, the Department has established fire operation guidelines for the coordi-
16 

nated use of UASs with state agencies, as well as developing the 

specifications for a government-owned fleet of UASs. 

Looking ahead, we’re studying the potential role UASs will play 

in fire suppression operations, including their effectiveness at delivering fire retardant and cargo in environments that may prohibit 

the safe use of larger piloted aircraft. 

In June of this year the Department announced the expansion of 

its wildland fire location data-sharing service named current 

wildland fires available to the public through geoplatform.gov and, 

in addition, the early adopters of Alaska and Texas. Other states 

are added which include Wyoming, North Dakota, and California 

and we’re expecting others to engage as well. The system informs 

drone operators, so it is available to the public, and informs those 

drone operators in near real time where not to fly so they can avoid 

interference with ongoing fire operations. 

Another important technology advancement that is helping improve the Department’s response to wildland fires is the use of high 

definition cameras with infrared technologies that help spot fires in 

remote geographic areas across Nevada. The Bureau of Land Management’s Fire Camera Network Program is a joint effort with the 

University of Nevada, Reno’s seismological lab. Eight cameras have 

been installed on remote mountain peaks and are used by fire personnel for early fire detection, allowing managers to shift resources 

as needed, to better manage fires, reduce costs, and protect local 

communities. This is yet another service available to the public. 

The data is readily available. 

The Department acknowledges we still have plenty of room for 

improvement when it comes to fighting fire efficiently and safely. 

We believe these technology advancements allow us to be better positioned to address wildland fire. We look forward to continuing to 

build on these efforts in ways that support the safety of the firefighters and the public, enhance our firefighting responsibilities, 

and promote further collaboration with our partners. 

Thank you again for the opportunity to discuss the Department’s 

fire program, and I’ll be happy to answer any questions you may 

have. 

[The prepared statement of Mr. Rice follows:] 
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The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Mr. Rice. 

Welcome, Mr. Maisch. 

STATEMENT OF JOHN ‘‘CHRIS’’ MAISCH, ALASKA STATE FORESTER AND DIRECTOR, DIVISION OF FORESTRY, ALASKA DEPARTMENT OF NATURAL RESOURCES 

Mr. MAISCH. Thank you. 

Good morning, Chairman Murkowski, Ranking Member Cantwell, and members of the Committee and my fellow panel members. 

My name is Chris Maisch, and I am the State Forester and Director of the Alaska Division of Forestry and past President of the 

National Association of State Foresters. I appreciate the opportunity to speak with you today on the topics of wildfire risk mitigation and the use of new technology on the fire line. 

The mission of my division is to proudly serve Alaskans through 

forest management and wildland fire protection. The Division is 

the lead agency for fire management services on 150 million acres 

of land with a primary goal to protect life and property. 

My staff works closely with two key partners in Alaska, the 

USDA Forest Service and the Department of the Interior, Alaska 

Fire Service with the latter agency being our main partner in Alaska. 

I’d like to address my first topic on reducing risk to communities 

and firefighters by walking you through the process of how a fuel 

mitigation project is created and then deployed on the ground. 

My written statement has included several case studies of fuel 

reduction projects that were used in actual wildland fire incidents, 

but I’m going to focus on one project in Alaska. The process starts 

with the State Action Plan which is a key document that focuses 

limited resources via a publicly vetted process and reflects individual state priorities. This tiers into a CWPP, or Community 

Wildfire Protection Plan, that goes into more detail and can be for 

a whole community, a neighborhood or any jurisdictional unit that 

works well for the planning process. 

Agencies provide science-based input to the types of fuel breaks 

or other fuel treatments that are appropriate for the circumstances. 

Work is conducted at the landscape level and for individual properties in Alaska, via our Forest Stewardship Program and a nexus 

with Firewise USA principles. Stewardship foresters are experts at 

working with small landowners and, in our program, we offer cost 

share incentives to work with and encourage landowners to fully 

implement recommendations to reduce risk. This work is cross 

boundary and at scale and follows the strategy of defense and 

depth. 

If you are students of military tactics, you will recognize this doctrine—outer rings of landscape fuel breaks and forest management 

that scale into individual treatments and for individual properties 

as you move further into the interface. 

In 2014, the Funny River Fire on the Kenai National Wildlife 

Refuge was successfully stopped at the outskirts of the community 

along the Funny River Road by a landscape scale fuel break and 

a burnout operation as the main fire approached. And if you have 
25 

the written testimony, you can look at page 2, Figures 1 and 2, for 

examples of what these treatments actually look like. 

The fire log for the incident reports the progression of the fire, 

and I’d like to read to you several entries: 

—May 19th, at 1600 hours, the Funny River Fire is reported. It’s 

driven by strong northerly winds and by 2230, the fire is seven 

miles long and three-quarters of a mile wide. That’s in two and 

a half hours. 

—May 20th, the fire grows an additional 21,000 acres and the 

Alaska Type 2 team takes command of the fire. 

—May 21st through May 24th, the fire increases by another 

83,000 acres. 

—And finally, on May 25th, the fire grows an additional 45,500 

acres and the fuel break is used in a burnout operation. 

You can refer to page 4, Figure 3, to see this operation taking 

place as the actual fire hits the fire line. 

Property values protected were over $250 million in value. This 

was a significant test for this type of a fuel break. Around the 

country there are other examples and there are three other case 

studies cited in my written statement, one additional project in 

Alaska and two in Arizona. 

It is worth mentioning that last year 82 percent of wildfires and 

almost 50 percent of acreage burned were on state or private lands. 

Collectively, we need to get in front of this problem and continue 

to provide solid, fiscal support for the full range of state and private forestry programs, particularly for the SFA and VFA line 

items. These programs help create fire-adapted communities, increased capacity of agencies to respond, create defensive space and 

educate the public. 

Turning to my other topic, I would like to briefly address the use 

of technology incentive—some of the innovative uses of UAVs. In 

my testimony, page 6, Figure 4, you’ll see this figure shows the 

Texas Forest Service utilizing a UAV during an initial attack fire. 

This technology has great potential to improve fire line safety, increase situational awareness for the Incident Commander and operation staff, as well as become a standard tool utilized for several 

purposes. 

The addition of an infrared camera to a UAV platform shows 

great promise for assisting mop-up operations by identifying heat 

in the areas being gridded in real time for crews. My written testimony goes into the details of the Texas Forest Service Program and 

joint efforts by the Alaska Fire Service and Division of Forestry to 

incorporate UAVs into our operations, including training, equipment needs, and the next steps to continue this process. 

In closing, I would like to stress the importance of cross boundary fuels work on federal, state and private lands for protecting the 

communities as well as increasing operational value and safety 

benefits of new technologies, such as UAVs and fire suppression operations. 

The Forest Service state and private programs are critical funding sources for these types of activities and, as demonstrated in today’s panel, states and the rural fire departments are at the forefront of the nation’s wildland fire problem. 
26 

In addition to the activities discussed, there is an urgent need to 

increase the amount of active forest management taking place on 

federal lands throughout the country. There are good examples of 

federal land managers that are rising to this challenge, but too 

often the appeal process or litigation of NEPA documents delay 

needed projects. Reform is needed to address this problem. 

Another helpful tool is the Good Neighbor Authority which allows state agencies to partner with the Forest Service and BLM to 

get work done on the ground. Improvements in this authority can 

also be made and that would be based on experience of the 95 Good 

Neighbor Authority agreements and the 29 states throughout the 

country. 

Thank you again for the opportunity to discuss these important 

issues and topics with you. This concludes my testimony, and I 

would be happy to answer any questions you might have. 

[The prepared statement of Mr. Maisch follows:] 
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The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Chris. 

Mr. King, welcome. 

STATEMENT OF STEVE KING, ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT 

DIRECTOR, CITY OF WENATCHEE, WASHINGTON 

Mr. KING. Good morning, Madam Chairman Murkowski and 

Ranking Member Cantwell and members of the Committee. Thank 

you so much for this opportunity to come to DC and present to you. 

It’s my first time. 

And let me present just a little bit of background about my career. I serve the City of Wenatchee as Economic Development Director and interestingly, 15 years ago, I started performing civil engineering work to design water systems for fire response based on 

structure loss in the 1992 Castle Rock fires in which over 20 structures were lost in Wenatchee. In 2015 when the Sleepy Hollow 

fires hit our city, we did not run out of water, so that was a successful mitigation effort. 

However, the disaster still occurred which tells us we need to 

look more comprehensively at how we address wildfire. 

I hope that my testimony today will communicate to you the 

value and the power in communities to act, and the value of implementing the risk reduction strategies through multiagency 

collaboratives and partnerships. 

Just a little context for Wenatchee. Most people, when I tell them 

I’m from Wenatchee in Washington State, they assume where I am 

from, we have lush rainforests all around us. Wenatchee is on the 

east slope of the Cascades. It’s beautiful, but we get ten inches of 

rain a year and our communities lie on the downgradient, downwind sides of the foothills of the Cascades. The forests give way to 

shrub steppe environments and wildfire is a reality. 

I grew up in Omak, Washington, two hours north, just shy of the 

Canadian border and next to a retardant base, or back then they 

called it ‘‘borate bombers,’’ where we had the World War II aircrafts dropping borate on fires just about every year. We didn’t 

have large structure loss or huge human impacts at that time. I 

barely remember any losses other than a few outbuildings being 

lost in those events. 

Times have changed. Our communities have grown as we push 

into the Wildland-Urban Interface, and it requires a different approach. My uncle served for 30 years with the OkanoganWenatchee National Forest as the spokesperson. I remember specifically two times when he had to deal with firefighter deaths, so 

my heart goes out to the folks in Montana. 

In 2015, we had the Sleepy Hollow fires one year after the 

Carlton fires when 322 homes were lost in the Okanogan area. The 

Sleepy Hollow fires caused the loss of 29 homes and 30 acres of 

warehouses right in the middle of our community. 

I was there during the event. I saw the fire turn from a calm, 

brush fire and when the winds picked up in the afternoon, the fire 

traveled over a mile in 20 minutes and was in the edges of our city 

and houses were exploding. I saw that and watched in horror as 

the firefighter response efforts were quickly overwhelmed, and we 

then saw house embers leaping from house to house. And then over 

a two-mile jump into the heart of the city. It’s hard to imagine, as 
37 

you’re in the middle of that, that all of a sudden, the radio calls 

out, and we have structures in downtown and a chemical facility 

ablaze, and it was like, oh boy, this just went to a whole new level. 

So, I will never forget this, but people do, people that aren’t directly impacted do forget, and new people come to a community. 

And so, keeping that presence of understanding that we live in an 

environment where this can happen is really important. And I’ll 

talk a little bit about how risk mapping does that, it helps keep 

that in the forefront. 

I also want to say thank you for the effort or the investment in 

training opportunities through the National Fire Academy, through 

the Community Planning Assistance for Wildfire Programs. The 

Chief of our fire department and us have taken up these opportunities. One of our goals is to become better educated in the understanding of this, of the realities of these events. 

Risk mapping. Two weeks ago, I sat down with the staff from the 

Forest Service, Rocky Mountain Research Station, and we worked 

on the risk map for Chelan County. There’s some significant values 

that come out of risk mapping and one of them, as evident last 

week or the last couple weeks, was that it brings everybody together. Agencies have different value sets and that comes out when 

you start talking about risk mapping and fire behavior. 

It’s also a tool for call-to-action. As I mentioned before, people 

forget. Risk mapping lets you simulate a disaster without actually 

having to go through the disaster. It lets us inform. It informs us 

on how to implement our codes, our wildland-urban interface codes. 

It tells us the effectiveness of risk reduction strategies such as 

vegetation management. It provides us information on how to protect critical infrastructure, like water systems or communication 

systems. 

And then, the technology is changing and will continue to 

change. For example, there’s a lot of studies being done right now 

on ember transport, especially from structures. And so, risk mapping, ultimately, will incorporate that new science and technologies 

to help us grow as the science becomes available. 

I just want to, again, come back and stress that our Wenatchee 

Foothills are made up of lands owned by the Forest Service, the 

Department of the Interior, our local non-profit land trusts, our 

State Natural Resources Department and the City of Wenatchee, 

Chelan County, and the private property owners. It’s absolutely 

paramount that everybody participates in these activities. 

Risk mapping also shows the importance of that. One property 

owner can lose their house, then you can lose it all if somebody 

doesn’t participate. So, once again, it’s a call-to-action. It’s a 

leveraging tool, as well as a technology tool that brings people together. 

So I hope you can see our passion at the City of Wenatchee and 

how we’re trying to prevent this from happening again. 

I had to tell our planning commission that we live in a world of 

wildfire and that wildfires will continue to happen, and disasters 

will happen. But if we do this successfully, we can—maybe instead 

of 20 years, it will be 100 years before the next disaster, or better 

yet, not even 100 years. And it takes this comprehensive approach 

to actually achieve that goal. 
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So, with that, again thank you, and I would be happy to answer 

any questions. 

[The prepared statement of Mr. King follows:] 
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The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Mr. King, I greatly appreciate it. 

Dr. Miller. 

STATEMENT OF DR. MARY ELLEN MILLER, RESEARCH 

ENGINEER, MICHIGAN TECH RESEARCH INSTITUTE 

Dr. MILLER. Good morning, Chairwoman Murkowski, Ranking 

Member Cantwell and members of the Committee. My name is Dr. 

Mary Ellen Miller, and I’m a Research Engineer at Michigan Tech 

Research Institute. My Ph.D. is in Environmental Engineering 

with a Master’s in Imaging Science. Thank you for inviting me here 

today to share with you my NASA-applied science work in post-fire 

remediation. 

My team has built an online data base to rapidly combine earth 

observations of burn severity with process-based model inputs. 

Post-fire flooding and erosion can pose a significant threat to life, 

property, and natural resources such as our valuable water supplies. 

As part of my Ph.D. program, I worked on a very large-scale EPA 

project designed to help plan fuel reduction treatments with a goal 

of protecting our water resources from high-severity fire impacts. 

When this project ended, I used the data sets and tools that had 

been developed to rapidly predict post-fire erosion for Forest Service BAER teams in Colorado. 

BAER, or Burned Area Emergency Response teams, just have 

one week to assess a wildfire scar and decide if they need to make 

remediation plans or not. So earth observations of burn severity 

are critical in this process but I was very surprised to learn from 

my Forest Service research colleagues that spatial process-based, 

hydrological models were being underutilized. 

I really didn’t understand why until 2011 when the National 

Park Service asked me to model a small watershed that burned 

within the Rock House Fire in Texas. It was only 500 acres, and 

I had previously modeled 75 percent of the forests in the West in 

three months. So I thought, this is going to be easy, I can do this. 

I was wrong. Texas was not part of the original EPA area, and 

it took me over a week to assemble the inputs that I needed. I was 

one day late in getting the modeling to the BAER team so it could 

not be used in the analysis. A year later, in 2012, I modeled 80,000 

acres of the High Park Fire for the BAER team in two to three 

days. 

The difference between success and failure was, simply, preparation. I didn’t want what happened at the Rock House Fire to happen again, so I’m very proud to introduce a new, online, Rapid Response Erosion Database. We’re calling it RRED, for short. RRED 

allows users to upload a soil-burn severity map into the online 

database and within seconds download all the properly formatted 

spatial model inputs needed to use process-based models. RRED 

was created through a collaboration between Michigan Tech, the 

NASA Applied Sciences Wildfire Program, and the USDA Forest 

Service Rocky Mountain Research Station. 

Data preparation that used to take a week can now be done in 

seconds. Spatial predictions of runoff and erosion will allow the 

BAER teams to spatially prioritize costly, post-fire remediation 

treatments. 
45 

I’m proud to say RRED has been used on several major fires— 

last year on the Soberanes Fire. The year before, in 2015, the modeling results were used to spatially place $3 million worth of 

projects in watersheds. And the year before in the King Fire, $1 

million worth of mulching in order to protect a valuable hydroelectric water reservoir. RRED has also been used on four large 

fuels planning projects to protect our water supplies, including one 

in the Mokelumne Basin in California. 

Our future goals include expanding our spatial coverage to include Alaska and Hawaii. We would also like to improve RRED’s 

capabilities for supporting fuels planning projects, and we are developing a new modeling interface to work in conjunction with 

RRED to make it even easier. 

Thank you very much for your interest in fire science. It is very 

important. Research and education outreach are vital in order to 

support our brave, wildland firefighters and BAER teams. 

Thank you very much, and I will be happy to answer any questions. 

[The prepared statement of Dr. Miller follows:] 
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The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Dr. Miller. 

I thank each of you. I think we recognize that how we are approaching firefighting, how we are approaching forest management, 

has changed over the years. And when you listen to the technologies that are now available to us, we have seen a lot of innovation. 

Dr. Miller, I appreciate the research and the mapping that you 

are doing. 

I think we recognize that we have new tools, which is great, but 

we are dealing across multiple agencies, dealing with tribal lands, 

dealing with state and private and federal lands. It is an example 

where if you are not working together, collaboratively, bad things 

can happen. 

Sitting in this Committee for the past 14, 15 years, listening 

every year to where we are with fire status report and how we are 

working across agencies, the discussion is always, oh yes, we are 

working together. It is interagency. It is collaborative. I really do 

think that we have made extraordinary gains in doing just that. 

Chris, you mention the cross-boundary fuel efforts. I will direct 

this question to you, Ms. Christiansen, and Mr. Rice and Mr. 

Maisch as well. With regards to how we determine or the process 

that the federal agencies utilize to determine where these fuel mitigation projects should occur on federal or across boundary lines, 

what is the process? I am assuming that your offices work with the 

land managers to help make these decisions? 

What more do we need to be doing to make sure that we are not 

just talking about good collaboration but that any impediments to 

that are removed because, as we all know, the fire does not know 

the boundary between BLM lands or state or private lands? What 

more do we need to be doing in this realm? 

Ms. CHRISTIANSEN. Thank you, Senator. I’ll take a first go at 

this. 

I really appreciate the perspective and that really is the articulation of the Cohesive Strategy, the three national implementation 

principles of the cohesive strategies collectively across jurisdictions 

in a landscape scale inclusive of communities to which we say, comanage risk, to look at the risk factors in an entire landscape and 

what those critical values are at risk. 

And no one agency can take on an activity that might transfer 

risk to others. Prescribed fire is a perfect example. Prescribed fire 

is often a very important tool to—it’s taking on some short-term 

risk, but to greatly reduce the long-term risk by—— 

The CHAIRMAN. Well, translate that into real application though. 

You have one agency that believes you should move forward with 

prescribed burn, but your community says no, this is a dangerous 

time of year to be doing that. We know we get high winds and the 

conditions on the ground. There is inherent tension between the desire of one agency—— 

Ms. CHRISTIANSEN. Yes. 

The CHAIRMAN. ——and what you may have in another agency 

or out in the community. 

Ms. CHRISTIANSEN. Yes, thank you. 

As Mr. Maisch mentioned, tiering from some very state level 

plans or federal level plans into community wildfire protection 
57 

plans, we, our analytics are so improved that we can sit down together with different jurisdictions and community members and we 

can map and show the risk, as Mr. King suggested. So it’s our realtime analytics are so advanced than they were even five years ago 

that brings the collaboration principles for decision-making in that 

risk sharing. 

So—— 

The CHAIRMAN. Right. 

Let me interrupt because I am running out of time here. 

Ms. CHRISTIANSEN. Sure. 

The CHAIRMAN. Let me ask, Mr. Rice and Mr. Maisch, are you 

satisfied that we really are as integrated as we need to be? 

Mr. RICE. Chairman, thanks for the question, the topic. I know 

your time here is short, but it’s complicated, right? And with it 

being complicated, the conversations that need to take place, the 

engagement that needs to happen across all the jurisdictions. So, 

whether it’s dealing with Indian tribes, federal lands, state lands, 

counties, all the other jurisdictions, it takes this level of personal 

engagement for all of our managers, our leaders, everyone that’s involved. 

Can we improve? I think we can improve, but as Ms. 

Christiansen was just saying, we’re making leaps and bounds from 

where we’ve been in the past. 

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Maisch? 

Mr. MAISCH. Yes, thank you, Senator. 

I would agree with our previous two speakers here that there’s 

places in the country where we’re definitely very coordinated and 

then there’s other places where there are challenges. 

The CHAIRMAN. Hopefully, we can learn from that, though. 

Mr. MAISCH. Yup, for sure. 

You want to do the lessons learned and then definitely learn 

from mistakes that have been made in the past. 

I think one of the ways to help with the community piece in 

terms of buy-in, getting communities to buy in, is demonstrating 

that these projects actually do work and when there is an incident 

that there is payback, that we are able to, in many cases, use those 

fuel breaks and the preparations have been taken to reduce the 

risk, not only to the community, but more important, not more importantly, but equally importantly, to the firefighters that are actually protecting the values at risk. 

The CHAIRMAN. I think we saw that with the Funny River Fire. 

Mr. MAISCH. For sure. 

The CHAIRMAN. Yes. 

Mr. MAISCH. And some of that is using, you know, technology. 

The Joint Fire Sciences Program is a key program that really 

provides a lot of very good information to practitioners at the operational level. 

One project in Alaska that program is working on at the University of Alaska Fairbanks is showing and demonstrating that the 

fuel mitigation projects, the different types, a shaded fuel break, a 

masticated fuel break, pruning, all the different things we can do, 

how effective those actually are in different fuel types when a fire 

impacts one of those treatments. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you. 
58 

Mr. MAISCH. So that buys confidence from a community that 

what you recommended will work. 

The CHAIRMAN. Which is key. 

Senator Cantwell. 

Senator CANTWELL. Thank you, Madam Chair. 

Mr. King, the only thing you didn’t say was that Wenatchee is 

the apple capital of the world. 

[Laughter.] 

When you think about apples and our economic input/output in that central part of the state, it is about $2.4 billion or $2.5 billion 

a year. So it’s a big risk when fire impacts it. And you did a good 

job of explaining that we are on the slope. 

One of the questions I have for the panel is this: use of new technology, because that is really what we are finding with these 

changes of conditions, that having data and information can help 

us know when to go and when not to go. 

I think we can all say there were probably some incidents in the 

last two big fires we had in Washington where people probably did 

go and that was probably the wrong decision. The conditions were 

just too volatile to try and create a stand there. 

So my questions are—Mr. King, what is the output? Right now 

I know that when you were talking about house-to-house, literally 

a community was at risk when one person had shrubs. You go 

along and you would see that these houses would be burned and 

this house would be saved. So what is it you think risk mapping 

is going to give you? 

Mr. Rice, can you talk about the GPS system and whether you 

support the GPS system and the aerial mapping my colleague, Senator Gardner, and I plan on introducing to encourage monitoring, 

real-time mapping? 

Ms. Christiansen, if you or Mr. Rice want to comment, I don’t understand why we have foreclosed on this water scooping contract 

with the Forest Service. I don’t know that we have conclusive data 

on its cost versus effectiveness. One of the things we’ve learned in 

the central part of the state is when you need hasty response, one 

of the best tools that you have is scoopers to access and dump 

water on these sites. Why would you conclude right now that we 

really don’t want to have that kind of capacity at all? 

If you could address those, thank you. 

Mr. KING. Yes, good question. 

The risk mapping has been phenomenal in informing us about 

the characteristics of how the fire approaches a city and gives us 

some idea of how to implement mitigation strategies along the 

structures. 

And so, two things. One, it tells us how to manage the landscape 

so that that predictable fire behavior is what we understand will 

happen. And then two, it tells us, for example, ember casts from 

the vegetation, what depth into the city do we expect to have a risk 

of structure loss. 

The number one strategy is you don’t want any structures to go 

up. Once the structures go up, you’re into a new fuel type. It’s 

called housing fuel types and it’s—that’s a whole different game. 

It really demonstrates the importance of, as I mentioned earlier, 

engaging all the property owners, whether they’re spread out into 
59 

the wildland areas or in the city themselves, to make sure and implement those practices to prevent that structure from going up. 

Then it also empowers the land managers, whether it’s BLM, 

DNR, city or county, to implement the right type of fuel mitigation 

strategy so that, basically, the flames lay down before they get to 

the houses. 

Senator CANTWELL. Thank you. 

Mr. Rice, does DOI support GPS for firefighters? 

Mr. RICE. Senator, great question and thank you for that. 

The way that we’re looking at GPS and the technology that we’re 

using within fires, there’s a litany of options. There are numerous 

types of capabilities that are out there. 

We’re looking at cost capability, what can actually be deployed 

and then how do we manage that data on the back end to make 

it useful. 

In terms of do we support looking at ways—we support looking 

at different options and how we can actually come up with a solution that’s beneficial to the firefighters on the ground, the managers in the field, the leadership that’s actually involved at all levels. 

Senator CANTWELL. Okay. I’m going to come back for more clarity on that. 

Ms. Christiansen, what about using these water scoopers? Why 

have we concluded right now that that’s not a good idea? 

Ms. CHRISTIANSEN. Thank you, Senator Cantwell. 

Water scoopers are certainly a tool in our aviation toolbox, our 

aviation strategy. We have not concluded that they’re ineffective, 

but as you know in our proposed FY’18 budget we had to make 

some critical choices and look at being good stewards of the taxpayer’s dollars. And so, in that choice-making, we will not, we’re 

not planning to hold an exclusive-use contract that can access these 

water scoopers through, what we call, the call-when-needed mechanism. Currently this year, we have two under exclusive-use contract and two on call-when-needed. 

Senator CANTWELL. I’ll follow up with this on another round. 

Thank you, Madam Chairman. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Senator Cantwell. 

Senator Daines. 

Senator DAINES. Thank you, Chair Murkowski, Ranking Member 

Cantwell, for holding this hearing. 

As it has already been discussed earlier, Montana is experiencing 

a very busy wildfire season. We have seen over 1,200 fires so far 

this year. In fact, as we speak, there are 31 fires burning across 

the state. Just yesterday, the top ten national priority fires were 

all burning in Montana. 

Much of Western Montana is clouded by smoke. It is leaving 

unhealthy air quality for tens of thousands of Montanans. Hundreds more are under evacuation orders. 

Tragically and worst of all, Trenton Johnson, a courageous, 19- 

year-old from Missoula, who also was a sophomore at Montana 

State University, my alma mater, died while battling a fire. Then 

just yesterday afternoon, we received word of another loss of life. 

We lost a firefighter while fighting the Lolo Peak Fire. The name 

has not yet been released. Our thoughts, our prayers, go to the 
60 

families of these brave men and women, who are protecting our 

lives, protecting our property while risking their lives on these 

wildfires on the front lines. Both appear to have been hit by falling 

trees. 

Unfortunately, the National Interagency Fire Center anticipates 

above normal wildfire potential in Montana. Ranking Member 

Cantwell shared the map, the August map. Looking forward now, 

the September map shows that the dire conditions look to continue. 

[The information referred to follows:] 
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Senator DAINES. We are having discussions now in early August 

that normally happen in early September, so we have a long way 

to go yet in this fire season. 

We do need to address how we fund and prepare communities for 

wildfires. 

We also need to recognize wildland firefighters for what they do 

and give injured firefighters flexibility in the retirement compensation. This legislation that Ranking Member Cantwell and I have introduced would do just that. 

It is also critical that we pursue management reforms that allow 

us to use proven tactics that reduce the threat of wildfires near our 

Montana communities and do what we can to reduce the intensity 

of the fires during these times of higher potential. 

Furthermore, we know that wildfires will never know the difference, as the Ranking Member and the Chair have just said, between Forest Service, BLM, and private property, so reducing fuel 

loads across boundaries is integral to reducing fire severity. 

On a phone call I had last night, it seems like I am on the phone 

a lot at the moment with our county commissioners, our sheriffs, 

other law enforcement officials, those who are running these fires, 

incident commanders. Just last night I had a conversation with one 

of our county commissioners in southwest Montana in the midst 

here of evacuation orders being issued of a large fire that is rapidly 

spreading. He mentioned to me that they cannot get near one of 

the large transmission lines that cuts across our state because of 

the additional carbon particulate in the air which creates arching 

with high voltage transmission lines and it presents a risk to the 

firefighters. So it just reminds us that we need to move forward 

here. 

There is a bill that I am going to be working on and am planning 

to introduce, that has passed the House, called the Electric Reliability and Forest Protection Act. It passed the House 300 to 118 

in June. 

What it does. It will speed up the process for removing hazardous 

fuels that are adjacent to electrical infrastructure, because I will 

tell you what, when the fires are burning like this, we cannot even 

get our firefighters near it because it presents a risk to their lives. 

We need to do that proactively ahead of time. 

We need to get to the heart of the discussion and showcase the 

value of collaboration, this cross-boundary work. Our forest communities will only continue to be frustrated by a lack of management 

as they live in fear of wildfires. 

Ms. Christiansen, the Park Creek and Arrastra Creek fires in the 

Helena National Forest are burning in the location of the Stonewall 

Vegetation Management Project. This area was identified by the 

Forest Service and local collaborative as an area in need of restored 

treatment and in need of hazardous fuel reduction, but this project 

was blocked through an injunction due to the disastrous Cottonwood decision. Now we unfortunately have intense wildfires burning over 8,000 acres and one can only wonder if implementing the 

project without delay might have made a difference. This is infuriating. 

My question is, was the Stonewall Project conceived through a 

collaborative process? 
63 

Ms. Christiansen? 

Ms. CHRISTIANSEN. Yes. 

Senator DAINES. Did the Forest Service do robust, scientific analysis in preparing the project? 

Ms. CHRISTIANSEN. Yes, Senator, we did. 

Senator DAINES. Absent the injunction, would the Stonewall 

Project have reduced the area’s susceptibility to wildfire? 

Ms. CHRISTIANSEN. For this particular project, I cannot say for 

certain, but in the over 3,000 assessments of hazardous fuels treatments we have assessed, 90 percent of them, when tested by wildfire, have changed the behavior of the fire. 

Senator DAINES. I am out of time. 

I will say I appreciate Secretary Purdue, as well as Secretary 

Zinke’s clear support of my legislation to undo the damage of the 

Cottonwood decision. 

Senator Tester and I are together on this. The Obama Administration was supporting us in these efforts, and we will keep fighting until it is signed into law. 

Thank you. 

Senator BARRASSO [presiding]. Senator Wyden. 

Senator WYDEN. Thank you very much. 

I want to thank all our witnesses. I think it is very clear that 

the system of fighting fire in this country is a broken, dysfunctional 

mess. This fight has been going on. It is the longest running battle 

since the Trojan War. And now we have an emergency, a wildfire 

emergency, declared by our Governor. 

Now Senator Crapo and I went with one approach. Two hundred 

fifty groups—forestry groups, scientists, environmental folks, all of 

whom endorsed the legislation. Still nothing happened. 

I asked the Chief here a few weeks ago about the costs of inaction, and the Chief said, ‘‘It is millions of acres untreated and we’re 

out $1 billion over a 10-year period.’’ This just cannot continue. 

So what I would like to ask is about a new approach that reflects 

that FEMA, the Federal Emergency Management Agency, recently 

said that wildfires change landscapes so dramatically that communities affected by them are at a significantly higher risk of flooding. 

Now a few weeks ago, the Banking Committee, led by Chairman 

Crapo and Senator Brown, introduced a Flood Insurance bill that 

incorporates a wildfire fix. 

Ms. Christiansen, to what extent do wildfires increase the risk 

of catastrophic flooding? 

Ms. CHRISTIANSEN. The—there is an association, Senator. Often, 

the catastrophic fires that are very intense, burn hot, they scar the 

soils and the water is not able to penetrate into the soil bed. So 

that’s why we have our BAER process, as Ms. Miller described. 

Senator WYDEN. You do not have difference of opinion, though, 

with respect to FEMA, that the wildfires can cause a significantly 

higher risk of flooding? 

Ms. CHRISTIANSEN. We, the Administration, have not taken a position on that particular bill. 

Senator WYDEN. I asked you. 

Ms. CHRISTIANSEN. Yes. 
64 

Senator WYDEN. I am not asking you about your position. I am 

asking about the science. FEMA is talking about the science. Do 

you disagree with the science? 

Ms. CHRISTIANSEN. No, sir. 

Senator WYDEN. Thank you. 

One other question and also Mr. Chairman, as a matter for the 

record, Senator Risch, Senator Heinrich and Senator Merkley and 

I would like to have put into the record a support, a letter of support for the Crapo/Brown proposal. 

Senator BARRASSO. Without objection. 

[The information referred to follows:] 
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Senator WYDEN. One last question, if I might, Ms. Christiansen. 

The Obama Administration supported finding an end to fire borrowing. Every year, more and more of the budget is used to pay 

for wildfires, leaving forests in poor health and at an even greater 

risk of catastrophic wildfires. 

I would just like to get, for the record, because I don’t think you 

all have been asked about this, is the Trump Administration’s position the same as the Obama Administration’s position on this? Do 

you support ending fire borrowing and finding a way to address the 

rising 10-year average? I just think Senators need to know whether 

the Trump Administration, on that issue, is willing to support the 

Obama Administration’s position? 

Ms. CHRISTIANSEN. Senator, thank you. 

Yes, the Administration is absolutely committed to finding a solution that addresses the increasing 10-year average as well as 

ends the practice of fire transfer. 

Senator WYDEN. I think I am going to say that you are pretty 

much in sync with the Obama position on that. 

Ms. CHRISTIANSEN. This Administration supports a fire funding 

fix. Yes. 

Senator WYDEN. Do you have a problem with saying you are 

pretty much in sync with the previous Administration? 

I just don’t want us to have to start over. I want to work in a 

bipartisan way with the Administration. 

Ms. CHRISTIANSEN. I would say it is a continuation of, as you 

suggested, a long-standing issue that we know needs to be resolved, Senator. 

Senator WYDEN. Mr. Chairman. 

Senator BARRASSO. Thank you. 

Senator Lee. 

Senator LEE. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thanks to all of you for 

being here. 

Ms. Christiansen, I would like to start with you, if possible. 

Utah recently suffered a catastrophic, 70,000-acre wildfire in the 

Dixie National Forest in Southern Utah. The fire destroyed a total 

of 21 structures, including 13 homes, and it also resulted in a 13- 

day evacuation of the nearby town of Brian Head. So we have two 

13 numbers there. It sounds like a lot of bad luck, and it is. 

But there is more than just bad luck at play here. I think there 

is some policy at play that needs to be looked at. While the Brian 

Head fire began, of course, on private land, it was of no surprise 

to local residents that once that fire started it quickly spread into 

the Dixie National Forest which was soon engulfed in flames. 

I have heard frequently from local leaders at the area who have 

described this entire area as a tinder box. This was a wildfire that 

was just waiting to happen, in part, because it was overrun with 

dead and insect-infested timber and that this area was just full of 

hazardous fuels. A fire of this magnitude of this area was, as a result, all but inevitable, largely because of poor management. 

Now you mentioned that the Forest Service treats about two million acres of forest land each year for hazardous fuel treatments. 

Ms. CHRISTIANSEN. Three million, Senator. 

Senator LEE. Three million, which is great that you are treating 

three million. 
68 

It is my understanding that only about 200,000 of that involves 

timber harvest. Is that right? 

Ms. CHRISTIANSEN. That’s correct. 

Senator LEE. Okay, so I think this ought to be examined, because 

beyond its use in wildfire prevention this also carries other benefits 

with it as well. 

This is a reliable, renewable source of income for a lot of these 

communities where there is a lot of forest land. But I consistently 

hear from county commissioners and other officials in my state and 

local residents in many of these affected areas that forest management policies make it harder to harvest timber, even where doing 

so, as I am certain would have been the case here, would result in 

significant mitigation against the risk of wildfires. 

So what can you tell me? What is the Forest Service doing or 

planning to promote timber harvesting as a mutually beneficial 

means of preventing wildfires and reducing hazardous fuels? 

Ms. CHRISTIANSEN. Thank you, Senator. 

The Forest Service is very committed and working aggressively 

on increasing the scale and the pace of our forest management and 

fuels treatment. We are working to streamline our environmental 

clearances processes and working with others on new tools and 

ways to do that, but the bottom line is the community engagement, 

the collaboration early. 

Secretary Purdue has said it’s an absolute priority. We absolutely are on board that we engage communities, that would be the 

environmental community, the industry, those that their jobs and 

livelihoods are dependent on these forest resources, early, in project 

proposals. So that’s how we can get to agreement and we can get 

the work done in the clearance. 

Now, as you know, more and more of our resources have gone to 

wildland firefighting. In just the last three years, as the increasing 

10-year average has gone up, that’s $270 million out of our nonfire budget that the Forest Service no longer has available. So, we 

do have a resource constraint as well. 

We’re both working on early collaboration, getting, we get communities to buy in and that we can add supported projects, working on efficiencies in our environmental reviews and clearances and 

with your help, working on a long-term fire funding fix so we have 

the resources to do just what you said. 

Senator LEE. Timber harvesting is part of that? 

Ms. CHRISTIANSEN. Absolutely. 

Senator LEE. Okay. 

Thank you very much. I see my time has expired. 

The CHAIRMAN [presiding]. Senator Barrasso. 

Senator BARRASSO. Thank you very much, Madam Chairman. 

This is a question I am going to ask a couple different witnesses 

to comment on. As wildfires burn across the country, the need to 

take swift action to improve forest health and prevent another year 

of catastrophic wildfires, to me, is undeniable. As these fires become more frequent, more severe, more costly, wildland habitat is 

destroyed, air and watershed quality is compromised, and human 

life is threatened. Hundreds of millions of acres require immediate 

treatment, and I believe this number is going to continue to rise 
69 

if we do not improve active forest management. Ms. Christiansen, 

you are shaking your head yes. 

Mr. Rice, I have a question for you. What additional tools do you 

need to be more proactive in forest management and enhance some 

of this cross-boundary coordination that I believe is critical? 

Mr. RICE. Thank you, Senator. 

So looking across the Department of the Interior, we have four 

bureaus, three of which have active timber programs of various 

sizes and scales. 

To give you more detailed information, I would have to gather it 

from them and provide it to you for the record, but in general the 

things that really improve and increase our actions on the ground 

is this notion of collaboration. So, it’s empowering our managers, 

our local leaders, to engage, outside the boundaries, to work crossboundary and increase the activities. 

Senator BARRASSO. Ms. Christiansen? 

Ms. CHRISTIANSEN. Thank you, Senator. 

I will say that the tools afforded in 2014 Farm bill, Good Neighbor Authority, insect and disease designations, those have really 

been helpful because we look at the landscape scale. We’re able to 

work with our partners who have the resources at the right time, 

whether it’s our state partner or another federal partner, a tribal 

community. We’re able to engage and activate across boundaries. 

So continuing, we have, I think you know we have a few fixes 

we need in the Good Neighbor Authority, continuing those crossboundary authorities. And just in state and private, for example, 

we’re able to easily have authorities to work with our state partners so sometimes they can institute some leverage funds that 

we’re able to give them. That’s the thanks, and let’s keep on working on those tools. 

Senator BARRASSO. Mr. Maisch, anything you would like to offer 

as well? 

Mr. MAISCH. Yes. I would say categorical exclusions are a tool 

that can be used and the increase in the size of those types of inclusions would certainly be helpful. 

As Vicki has already discussed, Good Neighbor Authority, I believe, is a very strong tool that should be expanded dramatically. 

It’s really a co-management concept where the states and federal 

agencies can work together, side boards on appeals and litigation 

would certainly help with moving projects along quicker. 

And the forest plans, themselves, as they’re amended or updated, 

need to really reflect timber management as a key way to achieve 

many of the objectives that we’re talking about here today. And 

right now, in my opinion, a lot of plans do not. 

Senator BARRASSO. Thank you. 

Ms. Christiansen, today you repeated the agency’s statistics. I 

think nearly 480 million acres across the country are in need of 

some sort of treatment because 480 million acres are at an elevated 

risk of catastrophic wildfire. 

Now it says the Forest Service meets their goal for this year, the 

agency is going to treat only 2.2 million of the 480 million acres. 

And I appreciate the barriers the Forest Service and other land 

management agencies are facing. 
70 

The fact remains that failing to address overgrown forests and 

wide swaths of dead trees due to beetle kill have made many of the 

forests a ticking time bomb when it comes to fire. 

Just yesterday the National Interagency Fire Center updated the 

significant wildland fire potential outlook map for August. I know 

it has already been shown here today. A significant portion of Wyoming is at above normal risk for a catastrophic wildfire event. 

How do reports from groups like the National Interagency Fire 

Center and data from state agencies factor into the Forest Service’s 

planning for future fuel treatments? 

Ms. CHRISTIANSEN. Thank you, Senator. 

I definitely agree with your sentiments, but just a slight correction. Our estimate is 480 million acres of all forests in the nation 

are at risk of catastrophic wildfire. Of that, 94 million are National 

Forest System lands. So we’re all in this together. We still have a 

big challenge as a nation, certainly. 

The analytics that we’ve been talking about, about risk and the 

projections that we have from our researchers on the fire risk, we 

can start to marry those together better. Now weather is the factor 

that goes into these three-month projections, and unfortunately 

they’re not so good to be able to project weather out over a twoyear period. But we do have projections where we have come from 

and where we think we will remain in drought and otherwise. 

With the thanks to the additional hazardous fuels funds from 

Congress, we are really working with these predictions of where 

our highest hazard areas are and where there are state and federal 

and tribal governments that are ready to synergize with us. So we 

go risk and then we go priority and we look at these projections. 

We’re not just sending these dollars out in a formula fashion. We’re 

really investing them, highest priority, where we can get the highest leverage with others. 

Senator BARRASSO. Thank you. 

Thank you, Madam Chairman. 

Let me just conclude by saying, Madam Chairman, that our forests are diverse ecosystems that need immediate attention. 

Thinning of overgrown stands and removing dead and downed timber are going to reduce fire risk. 

We must also make sure that we are spending the federal dollars 

responsibly, as you have just said. I recognize coordination among 

local, state and federal agencies as a key to success. I am concerned 

that some offices, like the one that Mr. Rice represents today, duplicate functions of more successful agencies. 

I am going to submit questions on this issue for the record, and 

I look forward to hearing from you, Mr. Rice, with some of those 

responses. 

So, thank you very much, Madam Chairman. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Senator Barrasso. 

Senator Franken. 

Senator FRANKEN. Thank you, Madam Chair. 

First of all, our hearts go out to the two firefighters that were 

lost in Montana and our hearts are with their families and also 

with those who are still fighting those fires out there. 

Chief Tidwell, of the Forest Service, and I have discussed the impact of climate change on wildfires several times in this Com-
71 

mittee. As Chief Tidwell shared, Forest Service scientists believe 

that climate change is one of the major factors in driving the longer 

fire seasons that we are seeing with wildfires that are larger and 

more intense. In fact, fire seasons are now, on average, nearly 80 

days longer than they were in 1970 and wildfires burn twice as 

many acres today as they did in 1980, the first was 1970. 

Do any of the panelists disagree with the Forest Service scientists that climate change is driving longer and more intense, fire 

seasons? 

Anybody disagree? 

[Panelists all shake their heads, no.] 

Okay. 

And do any of the panelists disagree that we are seeing significant costs associated with fighting these fires? 

By your testimony, of course not. 

[Panelists all shake their heads, no.] 

So despite this Administration’s attempt to deny climate science 

and to muzzle experts, we are already seeing the impacts of climate 

change. We are seeing longer and more intense fire seasons that 

have real consequences, as we have seen, to our ecosystems and to 

our rural communities is driving up costs to the Federal Government and will just continue to get worse if we do not take decisive 

action. 

Now these increases in firefighting costs are leaving less funding 

for other important programs, fire borrowing. In fact, the Forest 

Service has 39 percent fewer staff in non-fire positions today than 

it did less than 20 years ago. This is seriously impacting forest 

management in Minnesota and elsewhere. 

It is even impacting work to reduce wildfire risk through hazardous fuels treatment. Ms. Christiansen, in your testimony you 

state that fuel treatments can save two to three times in avoided 

costs of fighting fires down the road. Could you talk about how fuel 

treatment can ultimately save money? 

Ms. CHRISTIANSEN. Thank you, Senator. 

Yes, that study is a study done in the Sierras in Nevada, the 

Joaquin Watershed, where the avoided $1 spent on hazardous fuels 

treatments could save $2 to $3 in avoided costs of fire suppression, 

the loss of watershed viability and other losses due to a wildfire. 

And there’s some other studies locally, Flagstaff, the area of Flagstaff has done similar. 

The metrics might be slightly different in different fuel types, but 

there is a breaking point where roughly we’re able to treat 20 to 

40 percent of a landscape that we believe our suppression costs will 

be reduced significantly and exposure to firefighters and all of the 

other costs. 

Senator FRANKEN. So the evidence is that this can pay for itself 

or come close to paying for itself? 

Ms. CHRISTIANSEN. Yes. 

Senator FRANKEN. Or maybe more than pay for itself? 

Now, when Chief Tidwell came before the Committee in June to 

defend the President’s budget, we discussed the possibility of hazardous fuel management supplying biomass for district energy 

projects or combined heat and power plants, especially in the 

wildland-urban interface. 
72 

In Minnesota, however, these types of plants are having trouble 

competing in the electricity markets. 

Are there ways to incentivize the use of hazardous fuels to generate electricity? In other words, can we recognize the co-benefit of 

wildfire risk reduction in these cases, especially on the wildlandurban interface, so that we are not looking at losing homes, you 

see? And does anyone have any thoughts on this because this is 

something, I think, we can, and I know the Chairwoman and I 

have sponsored combined heat and power and other ways to do energy projects using hazardous fuel. Anyone have any thoughts? 

Yes? 

Mr. MAISCH. Ah yes, Senator. 

Certainly Alaska has a bit of an advantage because of our cold 

climate and projects like that actually pay their way. They don’t 

need further incentive. 

Examples would be Tok, Alaska, Galena, Alaska, and other 

places where it’s primarily for space heating and we do fuel mitigation work around the communities. The communities actually do 

the work with, sometimes a non-profit or a private business provide 

that fuel directly to the school or the other entity that has heating 

needs and these boiler systems provide the heat for the community. 

The Galena project is a classic example. It’s a new one. I think 

there are 26 different buildings on a heat loop that are heated entirely from biomass from around the town. So it’s a great example. 

There’s only one example in Alaska where electricity is produced 

at a very low level, in Tok, but it provides the needs for the school 

when the boiler is operating at its highest. 

Senator FRANKEN. You can also use it to cool. I mean, this is creating electricity. 

Mr. MAISCH. Sure. 

Senator FRANKEN. In light of and I know I’m out of time, but I 

just want to end with a comment. 

In light of what Ms. Christiansen is saying, where this clearing 

hazardous fuels can pay for itself or more than pay for itself and 

then on top of that, if we give some incentives to do district energy, 

to do energy projects in the wildland-urban interface to save 

homes, I mean, so that we do not have to lose homes. 

It seems to me that it is just win/win/win, and I would like to 

work with the Committee on moving forward with that, those kinds 

of incentives to have those kinds of projects. 

Thank you, Madam Chair. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Senator Franken. 

I think the example that Mr. Maisch has given is a very small 

one, very discreet in a very remote area, but it certainly demonstrates the viability. 

We look forward to working with you. 

Senator King. 

Senator KING. Thank you. 

I never thought I would have a chance to share this bit of knowledge, but one of our former state foresters informed me, and Ms. 

Christiansen you got it right, that Smokey Bear doesn’t have a 

middle name. His middle name is not ‘‘the,’’ it is Smokey Bear. Is 

that correct? 

Ms. CHRISTIANSEN. That is absolutely correct, Senator. 
73 

Senator KING. I think we want to clarify that for the record. 

Ms. CHRISTIANSEN. Thank you. 

Senator KING. That is a common misperception. 

Like I said, I never thought I would have a chance to get that 

straight in a Senate hearing. 

I would like to ask for some research, and I don’t know exactly 

where it should be, perhaps you, Doctor, perhaps at the Department, to compare fire frequency and extent across the nation controlling for climate and species. 

What I am getting at is this. Maine is the most forested state 

in the country and certainly we have issues with forest fires, but 

nothing like the magnitude that we are seeing out West. When I 

talk to my forestry people in Maine, they say the solution is very 

clear. Our forest land is privately owned and it is intensively managed. In the West, it is mostly federally owned and it is not very 

intensively managed and there’s not enough forestry being practiced. 

I would like to see some data that will either verify that or refute 

it. I think it would be very interesting, insofar as the science can 

do, can control for, as I say, things like climate and species and 

other differences to try to isolate the issue of intensity of forest 

management as playing a role because everything I have read is 

that the real problem in the West is too much fuel. There is too 

much fuel. 

If there is more intensive forestry practiced, the Federal Government will get more revenues from the stumpage, the economies will 

benefit, and I believe we will see less forest fires. The cheapest forest fire of all is the one that doesn’t occur. Ms. Christiansen, can 

you help us on the research here? 

Ms. CHRISTIANSEN. Senator King, I appreciate your observations. 

I don’t have any research in my back pocket to share with you, but 

I do understand. I mean, we can certainly look at that. I’m sure 

we may have something. 

Now, I was a former state forester for 30 years for the State of 

Washington and the State of Arizona, and I partnered with the 

Forest Service for my entire time. 

Senator KING. You probably know my former colleague, Susan 

Bell, who was the first female state forester in America. 

Ms. CHRISTIANSEN. Yes, I do. 

Senator KING. She was the one that told me about Smokey Bear. 

Ms. CHRISTIANSEN. Yes. 

My point is, and maybe you were out when I referenced the data, 

our research does suggest that there’s 480 million acres across the 

nation’s forests, there’s about 773 million acres of forest in this nation that have some kind of risk of uncharacteristic wildfire—94 

million acres are National Forest System lands. So there are other 

lands that are at risk, but the practices of fuels management and 

how that relates to wildland fire risk, in particular, ecosystems and 

terrain and fire weather patterns. I think we do have studies about 

that, not necessarily comparing Maine to the Western U.S. 

Senator KING. Well, I was thinking of Newton, Maine, or New 

England, generally—in New Hampshire/Vermont, there’s a great 

deal—— 
74 

Ms. CHRISTIANSEN. We’ll certainly have a look and we’ll get back 

to you. 

Senator KING. I just think if you could isolate—— 

Ms. CHRISTIANSEN. Yup. 

Senator KING. Down to what the factors are, it would be important, again, to either verify what my foresters in Maine from the 

private sector have been telling me for years or not. But it may be 

that part of what we need to be talking about here is breaking 

down some of the barriers to more intensive, sustainable forestry 

on the Western lands. 

That is all I have, Madam Chair. Thank you. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Senator King. 

Senator Cortez Masto. 

Senator CORTEZ MASTO. Thank you, Madam Chair. 

To follow up on that, I am the Senator from Nevada, and Senator 

King and I just had this conversation. 

This is to Mr. Rice and Ms. Christiansen. Can you talk a little 

bit about cheat grass because in Nevada, as we know, sage brush 

is one of the most imperiled in the United States because of this 

invasive species, cheat grass? It is a fuel for the fires that we are 

seeing, particularly now in the State of Nevada when we had an 

incredible snow pack. We had beautiful green hills and mountains. 

Now it is dry and now it is turning into fuel, and what we are seeing in the wildfires is what you saw in that map in Northern Nevada. So I want to open it up and just, kind of, talk a little bit 

about this cycle of fire and cheat grass, if you would, please? 

Mr. RICE. Thank you, Senator. 

So the Sage Steppe ecosystems are these incredibly fragile, incredibly diverse ecosystems that we have throughout the Great 

Basin and the surrounding states. And what happens and from 

where I’m at in my position, looking at how wildfire interacts in 

that environment, historically, without cheat grass, the Sage 

Steppe clumps, the sage clumps, right, would be the natural breaks 

because it’s not a continuous field that grows. What’s happened is 

cheat grass has actually grown up and filled the gaps, so it ends 

up being this carrying fuel to, basically, perpetuate wildfire in 

large proportions across the Great Basin. In the Department of the 

Interior, we’ve spent the last several years and several years even 

prior to me being in this role, focusing on priorities in the Great 

Basin and addressing cheat grass. 

So in terms of doing rehabilitation work for large fires, one of the 

most recent fires I can talk about is the Soda Fire, estimated at 

nearly $60 million to rehabilitate that landscape, several hundred 

thousand acres. And there’s a whole myriad of applications that are 

being tested so we can learn what can we actually do to address 

the cheat grass problem because it’s not necessarily the fire problem in those areas, it’s more a cheat grass issue. 

Senator CORTEZ MASTO. And do you have the resources you 

need? This is my concern with what I have seen coming out of the 

recommended budget out of the Administration. It is cutting back 

on the resources that are necessary to engage in this type of management to prevent these fires that we are seeing. 

Mr. RICE. So to look at the budget do we—the way that we allocate across the different bureaus within the Department of the In-
75 

terior is balancing the priorities, and there’s four bureaus, four priorities. And then, once we start looking externally with our partners, counties, states, even in areas where we’re jointly addressing 

issues with the Forest Service, it ends up we have to make tradeoffs. We have to look at making those decisions as we make the priorities. 

Senator CORTEZ MASTO. That is my concern. 

As you well know, over 70 percent of Nevada is managed by a 

federal agency. And so, back to the Chairwoman’s concerns. The 

interaction between those federal agencies and state and local 

agencies is so important as to how we manage this. 

My concern will always be tearing down any barriers and utilizing best practices to make sure we are doing the most that we 

can to protect that land and prevent wildfires and giving you the 

resources that you need. That is something that I will be very cognizant about. 

I am running out of time, but let me just touch on one other 

thing. 

I was just up in Northern Nevada. Nevada is one of the sites for 

testing of the UAVs. I was at Stead/Reno Airport and actually 

there while they were flying the drones and was able to manage 

the cameras and interact and operate the drones. It is incredible. 

They are working with our fire departments and fire services to 

really bring a whole new technology to the assistance in fire management, fire suppression, firefighting. 

I am curious. What are the barriers? What barriers are you seeing, if any, here at the federal level that prevent us from or our 

firefighters from using that new technology? 

Mr. RICE. Thank you, Senator. 

So looking at UASs, unmanned aircraft systems, and how we’re 

integrating them into our operations. The first step, and we’ve 

cleared this hurdle, is working with the FAA and to have clearances and have the required COAs and different things needed to 

actually fly in those types of situations. The other areas that we’re 

addressing is having trained pilots, having the actual technology. 

Is it a quadcopter? Is it a fix wing platform that we’re working off 

of? And then what type of data are we capturing and how are we 

managing that on the back end because—and then the other piece 

of that I would add to it, as we’re looking at integrating this new 

technology into our current operations, it’s plug and play. But it’s 

not plug, play and replace right away because in many instances 

where we have manned or piloted aircraft or we’re moving people 

or we’re moving equipment with piloted aircraft, we don’t stop one 

or we can’t stop one and begin the other. 

There needs to be this layer of overlap where we make sure we 

have the testing right. The research and development is in place. 

We have all the safety parameters because ultimately our number 

one priority is to ensure that the safety of our firefighters is taken 

care of in those operations. 

So, there’s that overlap time. And whether that’s one fire season 

or two fire seasons to get it right and actually deploy all of those 

assets, that’s still going to take a little bit of time. 

Senator CORTEZ MASTO. Thank you. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Senator. 
76 

Senator Hirono. 

Senator HIRONO. Thank you, Madam Chair. 

Ms. Christiansen, I am particularly interested in the role that 

education plays in wildfire prevention, and your testimony referenced a study in Florida that the benefit-to-cost ratio was as 

much as 35 to 1. 

I would like to note that wildfire risk is very high in Hawaii. 

Some people may not think so, but a greater percentage of Hawaii’s 

land area is subject to a higher risk of wildfire than the 16 Westernmost of the states. So it is a huge issue for us. 

And nationally, 80 percent, 84 percent, I am told, of wildfires are 

caused by human action, but in Hawaii it’s 98 percent. So obviously 

educating people to not do certain things is a really important way 

to prevent. 

Senator KING. You need Smokey Bear. 

Senator HIRONO. Yes or whatever. It could be ManuHuni Bear, 

I don’t care. 

[Laughter.] 

Okay, he is getting me started. For example, there are programs 

that we can have for children, especially to get them educated at 

a young age on things to do and not do. The National Park Service 

Centennial had a program called, ‘‘Every Kid in the Park,’’ which 

really enabled a whole new generation of young people to understand the importance of our public lands. 

I am wondering whether you have in the Forest Service youth 

programs that would educate children on wildfire prevention? 

Maybe you can think of something like Every Kid Preventing Wildfire programs in 2019? What are some of your thoughts on educating young people? 

Ms. CHRISTIANSEN. Well, Senator, you can really get me started 

here, so let me try to be brief. 

We have a robust conservation education program in the Forest 

Service and it is, it aligns with the Smokey Bear Fire Prevention 

Program. 

As I said in my opening remarks, Smokey will be 73 next year 

and he’s one of the world’s most recognized characters along with 

the slogan of, ‘‘Only you can prevent unwanted wildfire.’’ 

So we absolutely have tiering of what age groups we tier to. 

SmokeyBear.com has all kinds of tools and tool kits for parents and 

teachers and activities for kids. It will take you to discover the forest. It’s another website that we manage. 

And it’s not just to get folks to the national forests, of course, or 

the national parks, but discover a forest where you’re at, whether 

you’re in an urban area or a rural area. It might be a local park, 

a state park, an open area. There are many opportunities for us to 

engage. 

Senator HIRONO. I am glad that you are doing that. I am just 

wondering that as you collaborate with state and other stakeholders, do you know if these tools are being utilized, if the education tools are being utilized extensively in every state, i.e. Hawaii? 

Ms. CHRISTIANSEN. Yes. 

Smokey Bear, we’re co-parents, Mr. Maisch and myself, are coparents of Smokey Bear for the last 73 years. It’s the state for-
77 

esters and the U.S. Forest Service, in addition to the Ad Council. 

So they have access to all the programs. We have a joint council 

that governs Smokey and Discover the Forest campaigns. All of the 

access is with and through others, and the Every Kid in the Park, 

it was to celebrate, certainly, the National Park Centennial, but all 

of the federal agencies have offered the same passes. So we really 

work to not have the public or children no boundaries. It’s about 

connecting to their resources. 

Senator HIRONO. I will certainly check with our Hawaii people as 

to how extensively they are using these tools. 

Ms. CHRISTIANSEN. Great. 

Senator HIRONO. I do have a question about hazardous fuels to 

Mr. Rice. 

You note the importance of hazardous fuels management, specifically identifying how to control invasive weeds which is a huge 

problem in Hawaii. My question is you did note the use of technology during wildfire events. Can you briefly describe the Department’s use of technology for prevention, say, to identify fire prone 

invasive species for removal before a wildfire starts? 

We have a lot of invasive species in Hawaii, including a lot that 

can be—that are just, they are hazardous fuels for wildfires. 

Mr. RICE. Thank you, Senator. 

So the way I would begin by looking at this—so, over the last 

year the Department of the Interior, the bureaus within the Department of the Interior, there’s been hundreds of flights of UASs 

that have been utilized for various activities. Some have been testing on load carrying capabilities, others have been testing on data, 

elevation, mapping, infrared, just the different types of sensors that 

can go with it. So it has been used. It hasn’t been deployed full 

heartedly across all the different disciplines but it’s being looked at 

in all the different areas. 

Within the Department of the Interior, there’s an aviation office, 

the Office of Aviation Services. My counterpart director there is 

leading the development of all of those activities. And then they’re 

executed by each of the bureaus so, Bureau of Land Management, 

National Park Service, Fish and Wildlife Service, Bureau of Indian 

Affairs, across the board. 

Senator HIRONO. I should check to see whether these unmanned 

systems or these drones are being used in Hawaii to identify areas 

where invasive species would be able to be their own fire hazard. 

Mr. RICE. I’d be happy to find out the specifics and provide it to 

you. 

Senator HIRONO. Thank you very much. 

Thank you, Madam Chair. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Senator Hirono. 

I appreciated the question from Senator Cortez Masto about the 

limitations on the UAVs and recognize that you still have some 

technological issues you are dealing with. 

The battery, as I understand reading through your testimony, 

Mr. Maisch, you have two hours, batteries take two hours to recharge. The 3DR solo has a range of a half mile maximum, endurance of 20 minutes. You are still limited to range of sight which 

means that you can only do this during the day and for us in Alaska in the summertime, we have the benefit of 24 hours up there, 
78 

but in other places you have more limited application. But also, 

when you are in the thick of a fire, it is pretty dark in there with 

the smoke. 

Where I am going with this is the innovation within this, I think, 

is a very exciting area and application for UAVs, we still recognize 

that we need to push some of this out and it will allow us to do 

more. 

I will direct this question to you, Dr. Miller, because you have 

been engaged in some of the research. In addition to developing 

better UAV systems that will allow us greater opportunities, what 

else is out on the horizon there? You mentioned the mapping, but 

what is new and innovative that we might be looking to that can 

be utilized as yet another tool in the toolbox? 

Dr. MILLER. Well, one of my colleagues, Dr. Nancy French, recently won a NIST award where they’re going to try to make sure 

there’s internet connectivity for the firefighters and BAER teams so 

they’ll have mobile, you know, to create faster ways to get all the 

new information that’s coming in. 

I’m looking forward to using my database with UAVs because 

there’s no reason—right at the moment, it usually uses earth observation data from satellites, but there’s no reason it couldn’t 

come from mapping from the UAVs as well. 

The CHAIRMAN. I don’t recall who made mention that we have 

these infrared cameras that are placed on certain mountaintops, 

maybe that was you, Mr. Rice? I just think of the Alaska example 

and we are just so huge, we are so big. We’re talking in terms of 

millions of acres rather than thousands. 

And you mentioned the internet and the connectivity. That is a 

dream for us in most of these remote areas where we are dealing 

with the fires. Again, what more can you do? You just cannot hope 

that you put these sensors or these cameras in the right place and 

get lucky. 

You mentioned, Ms. Christiansen, that, I think, it was nine out 

of the ten forest fires are started by man. Okay, we can pinpoint 

better some of those literal hot spots, but in Alaska most of our 

fires are lightning strikes. 

Where else do you see us going, Mr. Rice or Mr. Maisch? 

Mr. MAISCH. I’ll start out. Thank you, Senator. 

I’ll give you an example in Oklahoma. Oklahoma is working with 

the National Weather Service (NWS) and a Geo16 satellite that 

would actually do real-time detection of fire starts. And so, they piloted a project this year. It’s, kind of, a beta test. And what this 

does is it gives you potential size. It gives you coordinates and the 

probability of error, whether it’s a false detection or not. But it’s 

still a very new effort and there happens to be a state that is pioneering that effort with, like I said, NWS. So there could be some 

application for that in other locations of the country as that technology is further refined and the algorithms that do the detection 

and model that are refined and tested. 

Another example is in CAL FIRE. They have a great application. 

It’s an app that’s available to improve public safety. It just came 

out, I think, this year. You can register as a member of the public 

to be notified in your county if there is an incident that you need 

to be made aware of. It’s kind of like reverse 911, but it’s actually 
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an application, an app that you register to be part of. You can also 

allow it to track you. If you’re traveling around the State of California it will send you notices for any areas that you happen to be 

that might have an incident that’s unfolding. 

So, there’s new technology out there, a lot of it, and I think a lot 

of it is just pushing it out to the agencies so they can start using 

it. As we use it, we’re going to find new and more innovative ways 

to make it work better for us. 

The CHAIRMAN. Working with the FAA and dealing with the 

whole line of sight issue, do we have greater latitude in Alaska 

through our UAV Center of Excellence? Up on the North Slope, we 

have received permission to do testing that is beyond line of sight 

because of where we are. Are we able to utilize any of that with 

the UAVs that we are currently using to help us address the fire 

issues or are we still subject to the same limits? 

Mr. MAISCH. Yes, to answer your question, we are still restricted 

to that line of sight or an observer that’s in radio communications 

with the pilot. So, you can, kind of, tier it out further if you have 

someone that actually can observe the UAV in operation and communicate back to the pilot. At least, that’s how we’re doing it currently. But I think that will evolve as people become more comfortable with the safety aspects of using these types of tools in the 

same airspace that we other helicopters and—— 

The CHAIRMAN. Yes, you have a lot going on. 

Mr. MAISCH. That’s right. 

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Rice, did you want to add anything? 

Mr. RICE. Senator, what I would add to Mr. Maisch’s comments. 

So FAA weather cams are all through the State of Alaska. Being 

a pilot, I’ve used them numerous times and being able to pick up 

anyplace if you’re down in Juneau and you want to look at Barrow 

or you’re out in Western Alaska and you need to see what’s going 

on in the ‘‘pass’’ to get back into Anchorage. 

I think the ability and that type of example exists all across the 

country whether it’s street cams or recreational cams that folks 

have up. Being able to leverage those different data streams is an 

option that we need to explore. It’s something where, you know, 

right now we’re talking about what do we have and what can we 

use. 

But let’s talk about what’s out there and what’s available and 

how do we actually capture that and leverage those investments? 

So that’s the first place. 

The other place, within some of the federal agencies, especially 

in DoD—so the Department of the Army has some smartphone devices, smartphone software, that allows data sharing rapidly. Right 

now it’s only android base, so it’s not on your iPhone, but it’s on 

your other types of phones. But that’s another example of ways 

that we can start managing technology better and building off of 

each other’s investments. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you. 

I am going to have to go to the Floor. We have a vote coming 

up quickly, and I am going to go make a comment. I will ask Senator Cantwell to close out the hearing and just give you all my appreciation. Know that we want to work with you as we address 
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these issues of fire management and how we deal with our 

wildfires around the nation. 

Thank you. 

Senator Cantwell. 

Senator CANTWELL [presiding]. Thank you, Madam Chair. 

Mr. Rice, I wanted to follow up, obviously as Director of Office 

of Wildland Fire, on your comments just now about use technology 

that’s out there. 

I’m aware of this USA Today article by Robin Will about a U.S. 

Fish and Wildlife Service presentation that they did, I’m reading 

now from the article, ‘‘... presented its second annual National Fire 

Safety Award to Bart Rye,’’ who was, ‘‘He helped direct a lost firefighter to safety during a prescribed fire. Rye suggested to his fire 

crew on foot and all-terrain vehicles to carry GPS transmitter collars like those worn by hunting dogs so that up to ten resources 

could be tracked in real-time by a Burn Boss on a single hand receiver device.’’ 

[The information referred to follows:] 
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Senator CANTWELL. Now, if this is available today and with what 

Mr. Maisch has just said about the drones, why not combine these 

two technologies today to get more firefighters more safety and security as they deal with these unbelievable conditions that can 

change so quickly? 

Mr. RICE. Senator, that’s—it’s a good idea and when Secretary 

Zinke came on board and we walked him through fire operations 

and how we have communications and what it all looks like and 

how we have the incident command system managing fire operations, one of the first things that he said to me was figure out how 

to keep track of our firefighters in a better way. So it’s something 

that we’re looking at. 

And this references your earlier question about, supportive of 

looking at it, we just don’t know what that right tool is yet because 

with any number of tens of thousands of firefighters that can be 

out in the field during a fire season, we want to have the right solution that’s effective, that’s plug and play for anybody that shows 

up on a fire, just like there are Nomex that shows up on a fire is 

interoperable. We want the technology to be interoperable as well. 

Senator CANTWELL. Well, I would say given this fire map and 

where we are, it is just scary. 

[The information referred to follows:] 
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Senator CANTWELL. Now I can see that it is further into eastern 

Washington than the previous map had it as that was out a few 

months ago. A few years ago people said to us, you are going to 

be at the epicenter, and boy, were we. I’m just saying with this 

level of the West under these conditions, why not? I mean, if it’s 

so easy just to go get some now, why not let the flexibility in the 

suggestion for this fire season be there? 

All I’m saying is the reason I am coming back to you on this is 

because in your first answer it was, kind of like, yes, we are going 

to look at it. We are going to see what we can do. These, as you 

just said, are tools that we can put in place today. You could even 

say that voluntarily we give the okay for these to be used. In this 

case, a U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service individual did it and then, 

as I said, received an award for the innovation of it. 

I would just say that the reason I am working with Senator 

Gardner is because I came to the Senate shortly after the Storm 

King Fire that killed so many people. Then we had the Thirtymile 

Fire which killed several individuals in our state. And then to have 

the loss of life two years ago. It is just a reminder that these conditions can get out of control so quickly and if we can put the firefighters, many times who are young, very new to the job, in a situation where they are depending on somebody who has greater visibility into a risk, I just think it would be so helpful to us, and also 

helpful in attacking the hotspots of the fire as well. Or knowing 

when we can pull back or knowing when to use other resources to 

attack it. 

So what about right now just moving forward on a voluntary 

basis to make sure that is clear to people that if they wish to, they 

can? 

Mr. RICE. Senator, so it is being used. I apologize for not being 

clear in my earlier answer. We do have folks in Fish and Wildlife 

Service, in the National Park Service, in the Bureau of Land Management, that are using this technology, but it’s in very local areas. 

And so we’re learning from that and looking at different ways that 

we can apply it across the enterprise. But that doesn’t preclude our 

staff from using them locally, under—— 

Senator CANTWELL. So anybody could use them now? We could 

use them in the Northwest if we wanted to? 

Mr. RICE. The staff that are local are going to work through their 

local line officers. And this leads to a much broader question of at 

the department level we’re empowering our line officers to make 

decisions in the field. And in order to do that—— 

Senator CANTWELL. Just so you know, it got so bad we called out 

the National Guard. I mean, we were taking volunteers—we had 

not done that in our state in a long time. 

I know Ms. Christiansen has been the forester there before, but 

the Northwest loves technology and it loves to keep pushing the envelope. So don’t hold us back to getting solutions in the marketplace this summer if we can. 

Thank you. 

Senator King. 

Senator KING. I am all set, Madam Chair. 
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I just wanted to thank the witnesses. This has been a very informative hearing, and I thank you for your work and look forward 

to continuing to work on this problem with you. I appreciate it. 

Senator CANTWELL. Senator Cortez Masto, any follow-ups? 

Well, I, too, would like to thank all the witnesses and the Chair 

for having this hearing. So timely. As we said at the beginning, 

we’ve already used up 50 percent of our resources. This map says 

it all. 

We have to keep ahead of these changing conditions which are 

giving us more volatile, more territory, more really, really economic 

and human loss to our nation that we need to deal with. 

Thank you all for your innovative ideas. 

We are adjourned. 

[Whereupon, at 11:56 a.m. the hearing was adjourned.] 
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