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U.S. DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION 

OFFICE OF HEARINGS 

WASHINGTON, DC 

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In the Matter of: 

TGI FREIGHT 

FAA Docket No. 

CP10NM0012 

DMS No. 

FAA-2010-1079 

1 

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RECEIVED 

Thursday 

September 20, 2012 OCT 1 2 2012 

Federal Building arlcJ.EARiNG DOCKET 

U.S. Courthouse 

222 West 7th Avenue 

Anchorage, AK 99513 

The above-entitled matter came on for 

hearing, pursuant notice, at 9:15 a.m. 

BEFORE: 

RICHARD C. GOODWIN 

Administrative Law Judge 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

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APPEARANCES: 

FOR THE COMPLAINANT: 

MS. CHERYL JONES, ESQ. 

Office of Regulatory Counsel 

Alaska Region 

Federal Aviation Administration 

222 West 7th Avenue, 

Box #14 

Anchorage, Alaska 99513 

FOR THE RESPONDENT: 

MS. REBECCA HOZUBIN, ESQ. 

Hozubin Moberly 

Attorneys at Law 

310 K Street 

Suite 405 

Anchorage, Alaska 99501 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 

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CONTENTS 

OPENING STATEMENT BY COMPLAINANT 

OPENING STATEMENT BY RESPONDENT . 

6 

12 

3 

WITNESSES: DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS 

FOR THE COMPLAINANT: 

Patrick Anteau 14 39 41 

Jose Gaytan 44 61 66 

Robert Dexheimer 68 80 82 

Jeffrey Deitz 84 174 

EXHIBITS 

COMPLAINANT 

1 document 

2 document 

3 document 

8 incident report 

9 email 

10 email 

11 articles of incorporation 

12 bi-annual report 

14 bi-annual report 

19 MSDS 

21 letter 

22 letter 

24 cargo spot note 

26 notes 

27 project summary sheet 

28 email 

29 training history 

30 training courses 

34 MSDSs 

35 appendix c 

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1 P R 0 C E E D I N G S 

2 (9:13a.m.) 

3 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. We're on 

4 record on TGI Freight, which is FAA -- DMS No. 

5 FAA-2010-1079. Counsel, do you want to 

6 identify yourself for the record, please? 

7 MS. HOZUBIN: Rebecca Hozubin for 

8 TGI Freight. 

9 MS. JONES: Cheryl Jones with --

10 JUDGE GOODWIN: Hold on. Is that 

11 Huntsman? 

12 MS. HOZUBIN: Hozubin, 

13 H-0-Z-U-B-I-N. 

14 JUDGE GOODWIN: A-B-I-N? I have a 

15 hearing problem. 

16 MS. HOZUBIN: Oh, I'm sorry. It's 

17 H-0- Z-U-B-I-N. 

18 JUDGE GOODWIN: And for the FAA? 

19 MS. JONES: Cheryl Jones. 

20 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. A couple of 

21 preliminary matters. I originally thought we 

22 were going to have to break at 10:00 to 

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1 accommodate the bankruptcy court, but we 

2 don't. I normally break sometime around 10:30 

3 for about ten or fifteen minutes, break for 

4 lunch around noon, and then break sometime 

5 around 2 : 3 0 or 3 : 0 0 . We'll conclude the 

6 hearing, whether we're done or not, at 4:30 

7 today and I'm going to ask you to be out of 

8 the building by 5:00. FAA, of course, is in 

9 the building. That doesn't apply to you. I've 

10 got a hearing disability so if I ask you to 

11 speak up, it's not you. It's me. And I can 

12 thank the VA for that. 

13 A couple of preliminary matters. 

14 I mentioned to respondents' representative 

15 yesterday-- when you-- I don't care what --

16 how you identify your exhibits, as long as you 

17 don't identify them using the same letters or 

18 numbers. Secondly, make sure you review all 

19 your exhibits. I want redacted any personal 

20 identifying information. That includes home 

21 phone numbers, home addresses. When the 

22 witnesses testify, have them use a business 

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1 address. And if that's a security issue, let 

2 me know. I don't know what the case is about, 

3 but if anything comes up that is sensitive, I 

4 incline toward sealing the record. Everything 

5 we do today will go on the internet. The 

6 transcript goes on the internet, exhibits go 

7 on the internet. 

8 And with that in mind, 1n this 

9 environment, I'd err on the side of caution. 

10 And that includes everything from financial 

11 records to -- well, I've had a number of cases 

12 where just the manner in which things are 

13 shipped, if the information were disclosed on 

14 the internet it would probably lead to people 

15 getting killed, let alone the security issues. 

16 I think that's all I can think of at this 

17 time. If I think of something else, I' 11 

18 bring it up. 

19 So, Ms. Jones, do you want to make 

20 an open1ng statement or proceed? 

21 MS. JONES: Yes, Your Honor, I 

22 would. This case concerns the FAA in more than 

NEAL R. GROSS 

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1 one matter. The FAA -- it starts with the FAA 

2 needing a weather camera out on New Eddy 

3 Island, to be installed, which is an island 

4 out in southeast Alaska. We have a contractor 

5 which consists actually of two contractor 

6 entities, Parsons and Lockheed Martin. And 

7 they worked together -- bought the contract 

8 from FAA to install this weather camera out on 

9 a remote island. To install the weather 

10 camera they needed to put it into some rocks. 

11 And they needed the appropriate 

12 material, one of which we are going to be 

13 discussing in this case, Pro-Poxy 400, which 

14 is used to cement the base of the weather 

15 camera into the rock. Parsons mobilized the 

16 material to go out to the island, meaning to 

17 get out there, there is a small window of 

18 opportunity. You will hear testimony -- in 

19 order to get it out there and to do the 

2 0 project in the window that they had, they 

21 needed to airship some of it out there. Some 

22 of the material they needed to take you will 

NEAL R. GROSS 

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1 hear was hazardous. It was identified as such 

2 by Parsons. Parsons in shipping it utilized 

3 the FAA facility. 

4 You'll hear testimony that they 

5 took it to -- via the project lead Jose Gaytan 

6 took it to Mr. Dexheimer, who is an FAA 

7 employee. And the shipping logistics employee 

8 of FAA identified it as -- the Pro-Poxy itself 

9 as probable hazardous material. Took it to 

10 him. Indicated it was hazmat and therefore 

11 needed to go to TGI Freight, as Parsons had a 

12 contract with TGI Freight for shipment of 

13 hazmat material. So they took it over to TGI 

14 Freight, told TGI Freight that the material 

15 obviously here was hazmat and could they 

16 please get it over to Ketchikan quickly. And 

17 TGI Freight accepted it. 

18 And as the expert shippers, took 

19 it and agreed to ship it -- forward it. TGI 

2 0 Freight, as the expert, took the material that 

21 they were given, which was six containers, and 

22 then shipped it. Unfortunately, they did not 

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1 ship all of them as hazmat. And you'll hear 

2 testimony that the they looked at the 

3 Pro-Poxy and because on the container -- the 

4 small cardboard box, that they didn't see any 

5 obvious markings or labeling of flames, that 

6 they decided that it wasn't hazardous. So 

7 rather than -- well, they did open the box and 

8 look at the tube itself. 

9 And they didn't see any flames or 

10 markings on it to indicate that it was 

11 hazardous to them so they didn't inquire any 

12 further. Although they did note that it said 

13 Pro-Poxy and it said it was an epoxy and that 

14 there was other wordings on it that should 

15 have triggered them to look further. They did 

16 not look any further. They did not check any 

17 MSDSs. Instead they decided that it was -- did 

18 not meet any further packaging and shipped it 

19 as a regular shipment. And therefore sent it 

20 undeclared. 

21 So when the material arrived --

22 well, they sent it over to Alaska Airlines. 

NEAL R. GROSS 

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https://www.fedex

From: (202) 234-4433 Origin ID: BZSA fec:l2w 'Ship Date: 110CT12 

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1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE NW 

Washington, DC 20005 

SHIP TO: (202) 385-8229 BILL SENDER 

Hearing Docket Clerk, AGC 430 Federal Aviation Administration 

600 INDEPENDENCE AVE SW 

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1 Split it out from the other hazardous 

2 materials, which you will hear there was a 

3 fire extinguisher and some ammunition to power 

4 some -- power materials for the project. That 

5 was ln fact hazardous. That got sent. And 

6 when Mr. Gaytan got to Ketchikan to collect 

7 his materials, he learned that he was missing 

8 some part of his shipment. And when he went 

9 to the Alaska Airlines counter, you will hear 

10 that he was informed that part of his shipment 

11 was missing. 

12 And he goes that he didn't 

13 understand because he took the material to TGI 

14 Freight as hazmat and paid them to fill out 

15 the shipping papers. But because he didn't 

16 need the Pro-Poxy immediately, he needed to 

17 catch a boat and therefore went out about his 

18 job. So he finished his job. Gets back into 

19 Anchorage. You'll hear testimony that they 

20 then went over to TGI Freight to find out what 

21 had happened . 

22 And they spoke -- you will hear 

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1 testimony that they spoke with Mr. Clark. And 

2 Mr. Clark-- you'll hear from Mr. Gaytan that 

3 Mr. Clark attempted to explain via an MSDS 

4 that it wasn't hazardous, but that he would 

5 take care of the issue. You'll hear testimony 

6 that they in fact did ship that very same 

7 material 1n the 9. 3 -ounce tubes that they 

8 originally tried to ship and that it in fact 

9 did get out to Ketchikan timely such that they 

10 completed their project. 

11 And that in order to do that, they 

12 shipped it via air properly, so that Parsons, 

13 Lockheed Martin, FAA contractors were able to 

14 complete their project. So TGI Freight, as 

15 the hazardous materials experts, the second go 

16 around did ship via air this product which is 

17 hazardous, flammable. TGI Freight does admit 

18 that via air properly the second time around. 

19 It's just the first time around they shipped 

2 0 it undeclared and hence the violation in this 

21 case . 

22 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Does 

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1 respondent want to reserve or do you want to 

2 open now? It's your call. 

3 MS. HOZUBIN: I just have a few 

4 brief opening comments, Your Honor. 

5 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sure. 

6 MS. HOZUBIN: It's a fairly simple 

7 case. We have a situation where the 

8 manufacturer failed to properly label its 

9 product and failed to properly mark its 

10 containers. The product was an epoxy. The 

11 outer packaging was not marked with the proper 

12 shipping name. It didn't have a UN number. 

13 The inner containers did display one symbol 

14 that warned of a possible poisonous reaction 

15 to a person who is repeatedly exposed to small 

16 amounts. That was the only marking. And that 

17 marking indicated only that it -- the material 

18 may be irritating to the skin after prolonged 

19 exposure. This does not make it a hazardous 

20 material. There was no marking or labeling of 

21 any kind to show that the epoxy was flammable 

22 or hazardous 1n any way. You will hear 

NEAL R. GROSS 

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1 testimony that not all epoxies are regulated. 

2 In fact, many of them are completely 

3 unregulated. You will hear testimony that TGI 

4 relied on the representations of the 

5 manufacturer on its product and on its 

6 shipping containers. And you' 11 hear 

7 testimony that TGI properly relied on the 

8 manufacturer's representations. 

9 It's a fairly simple case, Your 

10 Honor. 

11 Thank you. 

12 JUDGE GOODWIN: Will the FAA call 

13 your first witness. 

14 MS. JONES: Your Honor, the FAA 

15 calls Patrick Anteau. 

16 JUDGE GOODWIN: Either party want 

17 to roll on witnesses? 

18 MR. ANTEAU: What's that? 

19 JUDGE GOODWIN: No. No. Either 

20 counsel want to roll on witnesses? That's 

21 what we called it in Maryland -- sequester . 

22 The witness can approach the witness stand. 

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1 MS. HOZUBIN: We have no objection 

2 as to witnesses being present, Your Honor. 

3 JUDGE GOODWIN: Stand and raise 

4 your right hand. 

5 (Oath administered) 

6 MR. ANTEAU: I do. 

7 PATRICK THOMAS ANTEAU 

8 called as a witness on behalf of the 

9 complainant, testified as follows on: 

10 DIRECT EXAMINATION 

11 JUDGE GOODWIN: Please be seated. 

12 State your full name for the record and spell 

13 your first and last name. 

14 A Patrick Thomas Anteau, 

15 P-A-T-R-I-C-K. Last name's Anteau, 

16 A-N-T-E-A-U. 

17 JUDGE GOODWIN: Another rule I 

18 have to help the court reporter out. If she 

19 hears something that she doesn't understand or 

20 needs to be spelled, I'm going to ask her to 

21 raise her hand. That's everybody's signal to 

22 stop and spell it. So at 5:00 o'clock this 

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1 afternoon she isn't tearing her hair out 

2 trying to figure out what we just said. 

3 A Fair enough. 

4 JUDGE GOODWIN: Counsel? 

5 BY MS. JONES: 

6 Q Mr. Anteau, where do you work? 

7 A I work for Lockheed Martin as via 

8 excuse me. I work for Lockheed Martin. I 

9 am a regional program manager for the 

10 technical support services regional office 1n 

11 Anchorage. And contracts held in prime by 

12 Parsons Corporation. 

13 Q And what is it that you do for 

14 them? 

15 A I'm a regional program manager. I 

16 manage field operations in the Alaska region 

17 on the contracts. I have a staff of 

18 approximately 45 people, including engineers, 

19 drafters, and field technicians. 

20 Q And what type of projects do you 

21 do? 

22 A We are a -- our office is in sole 

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1 support of the FAA improvements to the 

2 national air space system. We do construction 

3 management, engineering design, drafting 

4 support, and field electronics installation. 

5 Q And are one of the projects that 

6 you work on have to do with the weather 

7 cameras? 

8 A Yes. We do do -- we have several 

9 task orders supporting development or fielding 

10 of weather camera sites throughout Alaska. 

11 Q Did you work on a weather camera 

12 at 1n southeast Alaska? The one involved 

13 1n this particular case? 

14 A Yes. Our staff completed the 

15 installation of that site in 2010. 

16 Q And what weather camera was this 

17 one? 

18 A The title for the weather camera 

19 was Misty Fiords weather camera. It's in 

20 support -- or in the Misty Fiords National 

21 Monument outside of Ketchikan . 

22 MS. JONES: Your Honor, this may 

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1 be a little bit easier if I do it this way. 

2 JUDGE GOODWIN: And do it whatever 

3 way counsel wants. 

4 MS. JONES: Okay. 

5 JUDGE GOODWIN: It's all right. 

6 I've tried cases for 20 years and I've done 

7 more different ones than I could imagine. 

8 MS. JONES: Many different ways. 

9 Okay. I thought maybe what I would do is hand 

10 some exhibits to the court reporter. The 

11 complainant's exhibits so that she would have 

12 them all. I don't know if that would be 

13 easier. 

14 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yeah. Why don't 

15 you put them up here on the bench. What I do, 

16 counsel, I take the original exhibits. 

17 MS. JONES: Okay. 

18 JUDGE GOODWIN: And I -- what I do 

19 -- once we finish the hearing I will send the 

20 original exhibits to Ms. Matthews in 

21 Washington and she'll take them down to BMS . 

22 And what she does as a part of it -- she also 

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1 scans things to make sure none of us have 

2 inadvertently put any personal, identifying 

3 information ln the file. 

4 MS. JONES: Okay. 

5 JUDGE GOODWIN: And if she finds 

6 something, what she'll do is call you and--

7 call the two of you. The two of you can work 

8 it out. 

9 MS. JONES: Okay. Okay. Let me 

10 do that and make it easier. If I may 

11 approach, Your Honor? 

12 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. 

13 Q Mr. Anteau, I'm going to hand you 

14 what's been marked as complainant's Exhibit 

15 C-27. 

16 JUDGE GOODWIN: Counsel, just so 

17 you all know the way I mark exhibits. When I 

18 get them, I put ID on them, which means you're 

19 a part of the administrative record. When 

20 they're admitted, I will line through ID and 

21 put the date on it. That way when you see the 

22 exhibits you'll understand. I won't -- I'll 

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1 probably ask you at the end of the hearing to 

2 go through the exhibits to make sure that 

3 everything you wanted to admit was admitted 

4 and what wasn't and so forth. So I'm 

5 fairly liberal on that, but I just want to let 

6 you know how I do things so you won't 

7 you're not surprised at the end of the 

8 hearing. I'm sorry. Go ahead, counsel. 

9 Q Okay. And marked for ID is 

10 complainant's exhibit --

11 JUDGE GOODWIN: I just put in 

12 pencil ID. When it's admitted, I line through 

13 the ID and put the date on it. 

14 Q Okay. Marked for ID, 

15 complainant's exhibit c- 27. Mr. Anteau, 

16 could you tell me what that is? 

17 A This is a project summary sheet 

18 that we put together after the project was 

19 complete, kind of as bulletizing the 

20 accomplishments and showing a picture of the 

21 completed facility . 

22 Q And what project was that for? 

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1 A That was for the Misty Fiords 

2 weather camera site. 

3 Q So 1s this a fair and accurate 

4 summary of the Misty Fiords project? 

5 A Yes, it is. It summarizes some of 

6 the preliminary work we had to do, of the 

7 logistics that we encountered. And like I 

8 say, it's -- or it shows a picture of the 

9 completed site. 

10 MS. JONES: Your Honor, I ask that 

11 complainant's exhibit C-27 be admitted into 

12 evidence. 

13 JUDGE GOODWIN: Counsel? 

14 MS. HOZUBIN: No objection, Your 

15 Honor. 

16 JUDGE GOODWIN: Exhibit C-27 for 

17 identification 1s received into evidence as 

18 Exhibit C-27. 

19 (Complainant's exhibit C-27 

20 admitted) 

21 JUDGE GOODWIN: The other thing 

22 you'll find when you look at the internet, I 

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1 try to always put a spreadsheet 1n front of 

2 the exhibits, which is similar to what all of 

3 you probably do. And when you're trying cases 

4 it essentially identifies it, marks whether 

5 it's ID or whether it's in. I don't have a 

6 printer here so I can't print it. But I have 

7 in past cases actually printed it out for 

8 everybody to review. But when you go on the 

9 internet to look at everything, generally it's 

10 probably a week or two after the hearing the 

11 exhibits show up on the internet. Go ahead, 

12 counsel. Sorry. 

13 Q With the Misty Fiords project, 

14 which one of your employees was in charge of 

15 that project? 

16 A Jose Gaytan was our lead 

17 installation technician on that project. 

18 Q When trying to get the 

19 construction items out to the site, 1s that 

20 typically very easy or very -- or somewhat 

21 difficult? 

22 A Our -- well, all of our projects 

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1 in Alaska are un1que. Logistics plays a large 

2 role in everything we do. In this particular 

3 case, the island is -- well, the island is a 

4 very small island. There are no facilities 

5 there. Everything all of our freight was 

6 consolidated here in Anchorage and had to be 

7 deployed to Ketchikan, where it was put onto 

8 a smaller landing craft type boat and 

9 transported out to the site for the 

10 construction effort. 

11 Q So does everything get shipped to 

12 the project site by boat? 

13 A In this particular case or in 

14 general? 

15 Q In this case. 

16 A In this case, the bulk of the 

17 materials were shipped to the site via truck 

18 and barge. We had a Conex that we included 

19 shipment. We have a large bundle of aluminum 

20 structure structural members, fiberglass 

21 shelter, solar panels. Other miscellaneous 

22 tools and equipment were consolidated in a 

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1 Conex here in Anchorage and transported into 

2 Ketchikan via truck and barge carrier. 

3 Q You indicated a large part? 

4 A Some of the materials that were 

5 not being able were not able to be 

6 consolidated into the shipment -- because the 

7 barge took some lead time in order to sail --

8 was shipped via air. So we did have quite a 

9 bit of smaller shipments that went down via 

10 air from Anchorage to Ketchikan. 

11 Q And how does Parsons do their 

12 shipping? 

13 A We are on a -- because we are on a 

14 FAA contract, we are -- our field folks are 

15 located at the FAA logistics complex at the 

16 airport. And as a -- as part of the contract, 

17 typically our shipping is handled by the FAA 

18 shipping logistics folks at the complex. Our 

19 crews will consolidate materials for a 

20 particular job and then turn them over to the 

21 FAA logistics manager, who will then transfer 

22 them to the shipping the shippers for 

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1 transportation. 

2 Q And who is the FAA logistics man? 

3 A Robert Dexheimer. 

4 Q Is there any difference when 

5 Parsons handles regular material versus 

6 hazardous materials? 

7 A Our project leads, as they're 

8 gathering their tools and equipment -- as they 

9 identify items that are known hazardous 

10 materials or suspected hazardous materials, 

11 they'll segregate those materials on separate 

12 pallets or containers. And are typically 

13 identified to Robert Dexheimer that these are 

14 hazardous materials. And they're -- at that 

15 point they go to TGI Freight for manifesting. 

16 That's the policy of -- or FAA has used TGI 

17 Freight. And because of that, Parsons also 

18 uses TGI Freight for hazardous material 

19 declaration paperwork. 

20 Q Does Parsons have some sort of an 

21 agreement with TGI Freight? 

22 A We do have an account with TGI 

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1 Freight. 

2 Q Are any of your employees trained 

3 in hazardous materials shipping? 

4 A No. Not the -- no. They're not 

5 certified in hazardous material 

6 transportation. 

7 Q Do they have do any of your 

8 employees have some hazardous materials 

9 training of any type? 

10 A All of our employees receive OSHA 

11 required hazardous communication training. 

12 Basically, they're all -- as part of their 

13 safety and on- boarding training, they're 

14 instructed on how to read MSDSs primarily for 

15 personal employee safety. 

16 Q Do you know whether or not -- what 

17 type do you know what types of hazardous 

18 materials or whether any hazardous 

19 materials were used on the weather cam job in 

20 southeast? 

21 MS. HOZUBIN: Objection. 

22 Foundation, Your Honor. 

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1 JUDGE GOODWIN: Overruled. 

2 A Yes, we did. Our installation 

3 team had identified potential hazardous 

4 materials pr1or to their shipment. They 

5 included the Pro-Poxy, some fiberglass repair 

6 -- a fiberglass repair kit, exothermic welding 

7 materials, batteries, a generator with oil in 

8 it, and I think some ammunition for a powder 

9 actuated tool. 

10 Q And how were you made aware of 

11 that? 

12 A I was -- verbally. I knew the 

13 team was getting ready and mobilizing their 

14 materials. They had identified those. I know 

15 that they were trying to coordinate with the 

16 trucking company that we were planning on 

17 using to move the materials down. So those 

18 materials were identified to them so that they 

19 could determine how they were best to be 

2 0 handled with going that route -- via the truck 

21 the truck and barge operation . 

22 Q Did you hear anything .else about 

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1 it? 

2 MS. HOZUBIN: Object ion. Hearsay. 

3 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sustained. 

4 Q Did you receive any other 

5 information concerning the hazardous materials 

6 being shipped to the site? 

7 MS. HOZUBIN: Object ion. Hearsay. 

8 JUDGE GOODWIN: Overruled. 

9 Q You can answer that. 

10 A We had a lot of -- we've got -- we 

11 always have a lot of projects going on, so 

12 there's a lot of things in flux. I knew-- I 

13 was aware that they were consolidating gear 

14 for-- to go to the site. I don't know about 

15 any more details on the particulars as to the 

16 hazmat items in -- that we're talking about. 

17 Q Did you receive any emails 

18 concern1ng the hazardous materials items? 

19 A I don't believe I received any 

20 emails prior to the shipment. 

21 Q How about after the shipment? 

22 A After the shipment and after we 

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1 had learned that there was a -- that part of 

2 the freight was -- did not make it, we started 

3 doing some investigating as to what was 

4 shipped and trying to verify what happened 

5 with the undeclared hazmat. So some of the --

6 we -- I had several of my employees forward 

7 email traffic that we were discussing the 

8 items in question. 

9 Q Okay. So did you receive some 

10 emails? 

11 A I did. I did. I received emails 

12 from between my field installation folks and 

13 my installation manager, Jose Soto, discussing 

14 what was being -- or discussing the logistics 

15 of the shipments and identifying the potential 

16 hazardous items. 

17 Q And what did you learn? 

18 MS. HOZUBIN: Objection. Hearsay. 

19 JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, it lS 

20 hearsay, but in administrative hearings the 

21 case law is clear that hearsay is admissible . 

22 So I'll overrule the objection. It goes to 

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1 weight. 

2 A So what was the question again? 

3 Q What did you learn from your 

4 investigations from the email? 

5 A Well, the -- like I say, my staff 

6 had identified the listed items. A portion of 

7 them -- like I say, originally the plan was to 

8 ship everything via barge. It turned out that 

9 we needed to send a crew -- an advance crew to 

10 do some survey work and do an assessment on 

11 the quality of the rock and the -- a tool that 

12 we were going to use to try to anchor some 

13 things into the rock. Because of that we 

14 needed the power actuated tool down to the 

15 site sooner than the barge was going to be 

16 there. So we had the -- my staff had the list 

17 of hazardous materials there. The powder 

18 actuated tools were part of that equipment 

19 that needed to go down -- or part of those 

2 0 hazardous i terns. And the decision was made to 

21 ship all of that via air, to simplify the 

22 manifesting and have all the hazardous 

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1 material there now delivered 1n one shipment. 

2 That was done via air. 

3 Q And was -- so you said to simplify 

4 it, including all the hazardous materials. 

5 What was part of that? Did you learn what was 

6 included in that shipment? 

7 A I believe it -- well, it was the 

8 epoxy, the powder actuated tools and -- or 

9 tool and ammunition, fiberglass repa1r kit 

10 that included a resin and a hardener in it. 

11 A fire extinguisher and some cad -- exothermic 

12 weld -- cad weld material. 

13 MS. JONES: Your Honor, may I 

14 approach the bench? 

15 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. 

16 Q Mr. Anteau, I'm handing you what's 

17 been marked for identification complainant's 

18 Exhibit C-28. Can you identify that, please? 

19 A This lS an email that was 

2 0 forwarded to -- that I received after the 

21 incident, that included the coordination 

22 discussions between my field staff and my 

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1 buyer who was making arrangements for the 

2 shipment of the materials for the site. 

3 Q Is this then the email traffic 

4 that you had just been discussing? 

5 A Correct. 

6 Q Does this email include the 

7 hazardous materials that your team had 

8 identified? 

9 A It does. 

10 Q So on page -- can you turn to page 

11 three? 

12 A Yes. 

13 Q The last page? 

14 A Okay. 

15 Q Is the Pro-Poxy listed on that 

16 email? 

17 A Yes. Second item on the list. 

18 Q Did your staff include the MSDS 

19 for Pro-Poxy? Look at page one. 

20 A Yes, they did. They provided --

21 at the time, they were this was -- they 

22 were corresponding with the company and they 

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1 provided the MSDS for the Pro-Poxy, along with 

2 the other items to them, for information. 

3 Q So in your position at Parsons, 

4 did you when -- did you learn whether or 

5 not the -- all the hazardous items made it out 

6 v1a a1r initially to Misty Fiords project? To 

7 the Misty Fiords project? 

8 A I think I was first aware that 

9 there was a problem when we received the 

10 letter of investigation from the FAA security 

11 that there was some undeclared hazmat on the 

12 shipment. At that point we started doing --

13 or trying to get a hold of Jose and -- who was 

14 out 1n the field at the time, to determine 

15 what happened. But I -- we were first made 

16 aware that -- we may have gotten a call from 

17 Alaska Airlines, but I don't know that for 

18 sure, indicating that there was undeclared 

19 hazmat on the shipment. 

20 Q And so what did you do? 

21 A We first had to get a hold of Jose 

22 Gaytan, who was coming back from being out on 

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1 the island and out of cell range. He got back 

2 to Ketchikan. We inquired with him as to what 

3 happened. He indicated that Alaska Airlines 

4 in Ketchikan had told him that part of the 

5 shipment didn't make it to Ketchikan and that 

6 there was a hazmat issue. At that point we --

7 he came back that following day. And he met 

8 with Bob Dexheimer and they both walked over 

9 to TGI to determine what had happened with the 

10 shipment. 

11 Q And did you speak with Jose Gaytan 

12 after that? 

13 A I did. 

14 Q And what did you say? 

15 A Well, I asked him what transpired 

16 at the meeting with TGI. He indicated that 

17 primarily we were concerned because we were 

18 the addressee or the my company or 

19 Parsons was identified as the shipper on the 

20 letter of investigation. Jose indicated that 

21 TGI accepted responsibility for the shipment 

22 and that they would contact the FAA 

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1 investigator regarding the case. 

2 Q And what happened after that? 

3 A I believe TGI issued or sent a 

4 letter to the FAA indicating that they were 

5 the responsible party for the declaration and 

6 that they would be responding to the 

7 investigation. 

8 Q Do you know whether or not all the 

9 material got out to the job site? 

10 A It did. It was shipped later that 

11 month or early the following month via air 

12 cargo to the job site -- or to Ketchikan. 

13 Q And how do you know that? 

14 A We received it in Ketchikan via 

15 ACE Air Transport. And we were able to 

16 complete the project. 

17 Q How do you know it was received 

18 Vla ACE? 

19 A We have a copy of a waybill 

20 indicating that was the way it was 

21 transported. 

22 MS. JONES: Your Honor, may I 

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1 JUDGE GOODWIN: I have C-37. 

2 MS. JONES: See if you see another 

3 copy. This is not a very good copy. It is 

4 not a very good copy. I don't know if this is 

5 any better, Your Honor. You can see if this 

6 one's any better. 

7 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Yeah. But 

8 there's still an objection pending. Counsel, 

9 what's your position with respect to FAA 38 

10 for identification? 

11 MS. HOZUBIN: Our position, Your 

12 Honor? 

13 JUDGE GOODWIN: The FAA's 

14 position. 

15 MS. HOZUBIN: Oh. 

16 MS. JONES: Well, the FAA's 

17 position is that Mr. Anteau has indicated that 

18 this is the waybill that the company received 

19 from ACE, indicating that on 3/2 ACE shipped 

2 0 their material, which is a dangerous goods per 

21 the attached shippers declaration, out to 

22 Ketchikan for Parsons. That TGI Freight had 

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1 been the company that shipped it via ACE out 

2 to their site -- the material. And this is 

3 their what they got showing that TGI 

4 Freight in fact did ship their material. They 

5 received it and it went via ACE this time. 

6 JUDGE GOODWIN: I understand that. 

7 But counsel's objection is this is the first 

8 time she'd seen it. It was not disclosed 

9 pursuant to discovery. 

10 MS. JONES: And this is true, Your 

11 Honor. I just got this copy yesterday. So I 

12 provided it. 

13 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Objection 

14 is sustained. 

15 MS. JONES: Okay. I also ask that 

16 complainant's Exhibit C-28 for ID be admitted. 

17 JUDGE GOODWIN: Counsel? 

18 MS. HOZUBIN: One moment, Your 

19 Honor. 

20 JUDGE GOODWIN: You want a minute 

21 to find it? Okay . 

22 MS. HOZUBIN: We would object 

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1 based on hearsay. We would also object based 

2 on lack of foundation. And this was disclosed 

3 as an exhibit 1n advance of the hearing, but 

4 I don't believe it was ever disclosed in 

5 discovery. 

6 JUDGE GOODWIN: Overruled. 

7 (Complainant's exhibit C-28 

8 admitted) 

9 Q Mr. Anteau, are you familiar with 

10 Pro-Poxy 400 yourself? 

11 A Yes. We've used the product quite 

12 extensively throughout the, you know, last few 

13 years. It's used primarily to anchor threaded 

14 rods around or rock anchors into rock or 

15 concrete. We found it to be a very good, 

16 effective product. It's able to cure at low 

17 temperatures and when it and even 

18 underwater. So we have specified it on a lot 

19 of projects over the years, where we were 

20 anchoring into bedrock or existing concrete. 

21 Q Do you know whether this product 

22 is does -- strike that. Does Parsons ship 

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1 this as a hazardous materials when it ships 

2 it? 

3 A When we ship it, yes, we do 

4 segregate it as a potential hazardous item. 

5 Correct. 

6 Q I don't have any further questions 

7 for Mr. Anteau. 

8 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 

9 CROSS EXAMINATION 

10 BY MS. HOZUBIN: 

11 Q Good morning, Mr. Anteau. 

12 A Good morning. 

13 Q You're an employee of Lockheed 

14 Martin? 

15 A I am. 

16 Q You're not employed by Parsons? 

17 A Correct. 

18 Q Okay. You're not specifically 

19 trained ln hazardous materials shipping, 

20 correct? 

21 A No . 

22 Q You were not physically involved 

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1 with the project in Ketchikan, correct? 

2 A Not physically, no. 

3 Q Okay. And you weren't involved in 

4 gathering or segregating any of the equipment 

5 or materials that were going to Ketchikan, 

6 correct? 

7 A Not physically, no. 

8 Q Okay. And you weren' t involved 

9 physically with any of the logistics regarding 

10 all the things go1ng to Ketchikan, correct? 

11 A Correct . 

12 Q And would it be fair to say that 

13 your involvement and your testimony here today 

14 is primarily based on things that were told to 

15 you by other people such as Mr. Gaytan and 

16 others? 

17 A Correct. 

18 Q All right. And just to clarify, 

19 you testified that Parsons -- not Lockheed 

20 Martin, but Parsons would segregate out 

21 Pro-Poxy 400 as a potentially hazardous 

22 material, correct? 

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1 A Yeah. Well, when we say -- our 

2 relationship on the contract with Lockheed 

3 Martin and Parsons -- Lockheed Martin is a sub 

4 to Parsons on the contract; however, we have 

5 an intermixed staff. We have both -- on this 

6 project we had both Lockheed Martin and 

7 Parsons field folks working on the project. 

8 So I would say as a group we refer to 

9 ourselves as TSSC Technical Support Service 

10 Contracting team. So both Lockheed and Marson 

11 -- Lockheed Martin and Parsons would be, you 

12 know, considered the same team in this case. 

13 Q Okay. But you're employed by 

14 Lockheed Martin? 

15 A I am. 

16 Q All right. Thank you. Nothing 

17 further, Your Honor. 

18 JUDGE GOODWIN: Redirect? 

19 MS. JONES: Yes, Your Honor. 

20 JUDGE GOODWIN: Based on questions 

21 of respondent? 

22 MS. JONES: Correct. 

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1 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 

2 BY MS. JONES: 

3 Q Mr. Anteau, you supervised -- the 

4 chain of command to get to Jose Gaytan. It 

5 was yourself. And who was under you? 

6 A Mr. Jose Soto lS my installation 

7 manager. He manages all of our installation 

8 team. 

9 Q And who does he work for? 

10 A He works for Parsons. He's a --

11 as far as company or individually? 

12 Q Yeah. 

13 A Company? He's a Parsons' 

14 employee. 

15 Q So you work for Lockheed Martin. 

16 Mr. Soto 

17 A Is a Parsons' employee. 

18 Q Parsons' employee. 

19 A Correct. 

20 Q And under Mr. Soto was who? 

21 A Jose Gaytan, who was our lead 

22 installation technician for the -- for this 

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1 particular project. 

2 Q And he worked for --

3 A He works for Lockheed Martin. 

4 Q So Lockheed Martin, Parsons, 

5 Lockheed Martin. 

6 A Correct. And above my level, I 

7 you know, we have -- Parsons 1s the prime on 

8 the contract. So it is --

9 Q So it's Parsons, Lockheed--

10 A It is a little complicated, yeah. 

11 Q -- Parsons, Lockheed. 

12 A Correct. 

13 Q So you're saying they're really 

14 one entity. 

15 A We treat everyone on the on a 

16 in our team as equals. So they're it's 

17 a joint venture. Technically, Parsons 1s the 

18 prime. Lockheed is a sub. But all of our 

19 staff are intermixed in all facets of our 

20 operation. 

21 Q Working under -- for the FAA. 

22 A Under the technical support 

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1 service contract, correct. 

2 Q Thank you. Nothing further. 

3 JUDGE GOODWIN: Anything further 

4 of this witness? 

5 MS. JONES: Not at this time, Your 

6 Honor. 

7 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Sir, I'm 

8 going to instruct you not to discuss your 

9 testimony with anybody prior to the conclusion 

10 of the hearing. Since there is no rule on 

11 witnesses, you can go out of the courtroom. 

12 But again you're not to discuss your testimony 

13 with anyone. You may step down. 

14 A Thank you. 

15 JUDGE GOODWIN: Call your next 

16 witness. Stand and raise your right hand. 

17 (Oath administered) 

18 Mr. Gaytan: Yes. 

19 JOSE NAPOLEON GAYTAN 

20 called as a witness on behalf of the 

21 complainant, testified as follows on: 

22 DIRECT EXAMINATION 

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1 JUDGE GOODWIN: Please be seated. 

2 State your full name for the record and spell 

3 your first and last name. 

4 A Spell my first and last name? 

5 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. 

6 A My name 1s Jose Napoleon Gaytan, 

7 J-0-S-E. Last name's Gaytan, G-A-Y-T-A-N. 

8 JUDGE GOODWIN: Counsel? 

9 BY MS. JONES: 

10 Q Mr. Gaytan, where are you 

11 currently employed? 

12 A For Lockheed Martin here in 

13 Anchorage, Alaska. 

14 Q And what do you do for Lockheed 

15 Martin? 

16 A I'm an electronics technician. 

17 Q And how long have you been an 

18 electronics technician for Lockheed Martin? 

19 A Since June of 2005. 

20 Q And what did you do before that? 

21 A I worked for PDS, subcontracting 

22 for Boeing. 

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1 Q And what did you do while doing 

2 that position? 

3 A I was an avionics technician. 

4 Q And how long did you hold that 

5 position? 

6 A From 2001 to 2005. 

7 Q As an avionics technician? 

8 A Yes. 

9 Q And before that? 

10 A Garrett Aviation 1n Santa Barbara 

11 also an avionics technician-- from '99 to 

12 2001. 

13 Q And pr1or to that? 

14 A I worked for Northrop Grumman as a 

15 hydraulics technician. Building F-18 E and F 

16 models. 

17 Q What was that again? Building --

18 A F-18 E and F models. And 

19 hydraulics and environmental control systems. 

20 Q And you were in that position for 

21 about how long? 

22 A For about two years. 

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1 Q And prior to that, what did you 

2 do? 

3 A Well, during that time I was a 

4 reservist for the United States Marine Corps. 

5 as a hydraulics mechanic. 

6 Q And prior to your time as the 

7 reservist, where were you? 

8 A Oh. I was a student. Once I 

9 graduated high school I went into the Marine 

10 Corps. I had other odd jobs. Landers (ph) 

11 was another job that I had. And that was a 

12 compound mixer. Landers was a -- like a --

13 they made like shampoos, bubble baths, 

14 lotions, and what not. So put them all in a 

15 batch and voila, you get shampoos and bubble 

16 baths and 

17 Q In those positions, have you had 

18 any training in hazardous materials? 

19 A Yes. 

20 Q And what kind of training has that 

21 been? 

22 A Oh, just like hazardous 

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1 communications. Just to let, you know, the 

2 workers know what you're working with and how 

3 to protect yourself from hazardous materials. 

4 Q So are you familiar with material 

5 data safety sheets? 

6 A Yes, I am. 

7 Q In your employment with Lockheed 

8 Martin, what type of work do you do? 

9 A Various types of work. Mostly nav 

10 aides. And right now I'm currently working 

11 with the weather cameras program . 

12 Q Did you work on the Misty Fiords 

13 weather camera project? 

14 A Yes, I did. 

15 Q And what was your responsibilities 

16 with that weather camera project? 

17 A Well, I was the lead on the 

18 project so basically I had to ship stuff, get 

19 the workers to, you know, go in step phases of 

20 the job, and report progress back to the 

21 our office . 

22 Q In shipping or mobilizing the 

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1 materials for that project, can you describe 

2 that for us? 

3 A Yes. We had -- basically we had 

4 to get all our materials from Anchorage to the 

5 Misty Fiords via truck and barge, for our 

6 bigger materials, and through air for smaller 

7 materials. And basically gathering all our 

8 tools and equipment that we needed for the 

9 job. So that was in a nutshell what we did --

10 what I did. 

11 Q And how exactly does -- did you do 

12 that for that particular project? 

13 A Well, prior to getting everything 

14 shipped up, we were going out to Misty to go 

15 ahead and do kind of like a final site survey. 

16 And we were going to go test some materials 

17 that we needed. I needed a-- like a ramshot, 

18 which is a power actuated gun that carried 

19 munitions. I needed that there as I was 

20 there, so I needed to ship that via air. So 

21 when I got to Ketchikan we were going to catch 

22 a boat and go out to Misty. So I needed that 

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1 equipment with me. And since we were there, 

2 we took other, you know, equipment that would 

3 you know, small pieces that would be, you 

4 know, cost-effective to just ship via air out 

5 to the site. Even though it was just a site 

6 survey we were staging there in Ketchikan. So 

7 that's how we did that. The ram jet was 

8 hazmat, so we I took it over to our 

9 warehouse Robert Dexheimer's, you know, 

10 office and, you know, presented a pallet with 

11 a bunch of materials that I deemed to be 

12 hazardous materials. To take it over to TGI, 

13 which is the company that we use for shipping 

14 hazardous materials. 

15 Q So you worked for Lockheed Martin. 

16 There's some discussion here about Parsons. 

17 Is Parsons and Lockheed Martin the same? 

18 A Yes. They're it's a joint 

19 contract. Parsons, Lockheed Martin with a 

20 technical services contract. 

21 Q Okay. How does Parsons, Lockheed 

22 Martin typically ship things? 

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1 A Typically, we take it to the FAA 

2 warehouse guy, which is Robert Dexheimer. And 

3 ship it from there. He usually takes care of 

4 it for us. 

5 Q Is there a process for shipping if 

6 something 1s hazmat? And a different process 

7 if it isn't? 

8 A Well, yeah. I let him know, hey, 

9 this is hazardous material here. Usually he 

10 runs down to TGI and takes it there. And for 

11 the stuff that's not hazardous, then he goes 

12 ahead and ships it via whatever. If we're 

13 doing a1r carrier, it will be Alaska and 

14 various other a1r carriers. 

15 Q So you indicated earlier that you 

16 identified some particular things that were 

17 hazardous material for this particular 

18 project. 

19 A That's correct. 

20 Q And how did you do that? 

21 A Just looked at the labels and if, 

22 you know, the red flag goes out there, you 

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1 know, then you those are hazardous 

2 materials either by signage or MSDSs. 

3 Q So for this particular -- was it a 

4 pallet that you took to Dex? 

5 A Well, yeah. I had a pallet and 

6 then I had materials. So I just threw it all 

7 on the pallet so that way it just makes it 

8 easier instead of, you know, piecing it out. 

9 Put it on a pallet and take it down to our 

10 shipping -- where Dex is at. And tell him, 

11 hey, this pile here is hazmat and this pile 

12 over here is not. That's kind of how we do it. 

13 Q Do you recall the material that 

14 you took to Mr. Dexheimer? 

15 A Yeah. It was -- I think it was 

16 like a fire extinguisher, the ram gun with the 

17 ammunition that goes with it, the fiberglass 

18 repair kit, the Pro-Poxy 400. I think that --

19 some Cadweld shots, I believe. And I think 

20 that was it. 

21 Q So you took it down to Mr. -- the 

22 hazardous materials down to Mr. Dexheimer. 

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1 And do you recall what you told him? 

2 A I told him this is hazmat. 

3 Q And what did he say? 

4 A Okay. He took it down to TGI, 

5 which is what we usually do with our hazardous 

6 material. 

7 Q And then what did you do? 

8 A I went back upstairs and finished 

9 completing stuff that I needed to do for the 

10 job. Setting all the ducks 1n a row and got 

11 ready to go on my flight. 

12 Q Okay. And you took your flight. 

13 And then got 

14 A I got to Ketchikan. Then I went 

15 to Alaska Airlines to pick up my shipment and 

16 some of it didn't make it. 

17 Q So what didn't make it? 

18 A The Pro-Poxy 400 didn't make it. 

19 Q And what did you -- how did you 

20 learn that? 

21 A The counter person there brought 

22 my shipment out. And I told her that it was 

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1 missing something. And she gave me a phone 

2 number. I told her that's weird. You know, 

3 I -- you know, shipped it and thought it went 

4 through TGI so I don't know why it would be 

5 held back. She told me it was a -- they called 

6 it it was held back because of hazmat. 

7 Like undeclared hazmat. 

8 Q And what did you say? 

9 A I said oh, okay. I'll take care 

10 of it later. I was -- you know, a boat was 

11 waiting for me to get out where we needed to 

12 go. And the only item I needed was that ram 

13 jet set to get my job completed. The other 

14 stuff I just brought with me, like I said, 

15 just to stage it. Because I knew my other gear 

16 was go1ng to be coming soon so --

17 Q Did you tell the agent anything 

18 else? 

19 A Well, like I said, I had told her, 

20 you know, it's weird that that didn't make it. 

21 You know, because usually all our hazmat 

22 usually gets there. I didn't know why that 

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1 hazmat didn't get to where it needed to. 

2 Q So you caught the boat and then 

3 what happened? 

4 A Then I went and did my job. Got 

5 back to the airport. You know, flying back 

6 home it was a short trip. And I called my 

7 office just to let them know that everything 

8 went fine. That, you know, the ram jet wasn't 

9 go1ng to work to secure some stuff that we 

10 needed out where we are at, going through the 

11 rock. And my boss told me anything else? And 

12 I'm like, no, not really. And I'm like, oh, 

13 yeah. Some of our stuff the shipment 

14 didn't make it. He was like okay. Do you 

15 know why? And I said no, I didn't know. 

16 Something about hazmat. And he was like okay, 

17 we'll talk about it when you get back. So 

18 that would be the next day when I saw my boss 

19 and he let me know kind of what had happened. 

20 A letter that was written to our headquarters 

21 and saying that, you know, I guess we were in 

22 violation for hazardous undeclared for 

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1 hazardous materials. 

2 Q And then what happened? 

3 A Well, I got back and got with 

4 Dexheimer. And we walked over to TGI and, you 

5 know, presented the letter. Saying what's 

6 go1ng on here? What's with this? 

7 Q And what do you recall about that 

8 con -- who did you meet with at TGI Freight? 

9 A Well, there was a gentleman 

10 downstairs. And, you know, as you walk into 

11 the door. And he went and got somebody else. 

12 And he came downstairs. And I showed him the 

13 letter. Presented the lawyer to him. And he 

14 was like what's -- you know, kind of like 

15 what's this? And I showed him. And he said 

16 that it wasn't a hazardous material. And, you 

17 know, he said something about a MSDS. Saying 

18 that if it was shipped with 1n larger 

19 quantities, like a gallon or five gallons, 

20 that it wasn't you know, it wasn't 

21 considered a hazmat until it got to those 

22 quantities. And that was about the extent of 

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1 the conversation. I just gave him the letter 

2 and he said he'd take care of it. And that 

3 was pretty much -- you know, I went back to my 

4 boss and told him what happened. And that was 

5 the end of that. That's all I heard. 

6 Q Did you get your Pro-Poxy 400? 

7 A Yes, I did. Once I went back out 

8 I think it was about a week later or so --

9 my stuff was there. 

10 Q What size of tubes did you ship? 

11 A It was like a nine ounce tube. 

12 Something like that. 

13 Q Is that the size of tube that you 

14 received? 

15 A Yes. And it was several boxes so 

16 there were several tubes. I think there was 

17 like -- maybe like a little over forty tubes 

18 of Pro-Poxy. So I think there was like twelve 

19 per box and we had like four -- four boxes and 

20 then like a partial box. Something like that. 

21 MS. JONES: Your Honor, may I 

22 approach? 

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1 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. 

2 Q I'm showing you what's been marked 

3 as Complainant's Exhibit C-9 for 

4 identification. Do you recognize the items in 

5 that picture? 

6 A Yes, I do. 

7 Q Can you tell me what those items 

8 are? 

9 A It's the box of the Pro-Poxy, the 

10 (indiscernible). And I'm assuming that this 

11 box in here has got the maxi pack in there . 

12 Q Were the items that you actually 

13 recognize the Pro-Poxy? So those are the 

14 boxes that you have been discussing? 

15 A Yes. 

16 Q When you received the Pro-Poxy, 

17 did you pick up the shipment? 

18 A Yes. 

19 Q Do you know how it came in? 

20 A Air. 

21 Q And do you know by what carrier it 

22 came in? 

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1 A I believe it was ACE. 

2 Q And did TGI ship it? 

3 A Yes. 

4 Q Did you take a look at any of the 

5 paperwork yourself? 

6 A Well 1 I received the paperwork. 

7 But I mean it was just kind of a glance. I 

8 really didn 1 t care about the paperwork. I 

9 cared about the job so 

10 Q But it came 1n via air? 

11 A Right. 

12 Q And you think it -- well 1 it came 

13 1n via ACE? 

14 A Yes. 

15 Q And that 1 s ACE Air Cargo? 

16 A Correct. 

17 Q Did you have any conversations 

18 with other coworkers about the hazardous 

19 nature of the Pro-Poxy 400? 

20 A As far as what? 

21 Q Just discussions about whether it 

22 1s or isn 1 t hazardous? 

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1 A Not that I recall. 

2 Q So other than with Mr. Dexheimer 

3 that's the main person? 

4 A Right. When we're shipping, 

5 right. I mean after the fact, you know, when, 

6 you know, this whole thing was going through, 

7 it was like well, this is hazmat for sure. 

8 Q Okay. No further questions. 

9 JUDGE GOODWIN : Okay. At this 

10 point we're going to take a break. And I'm 

11 going to instruct the witness not to discuss 

12 your testimony with anybody prior to the 

13 conclusion of the hearing and especially since 

14 respondent has not had a chance to cross 

15 examine you. Okay? 

16 A Okay. 

17 JUDGE GOODWIN: We're going to 

18 come back at ten minutes of. And you'll 

19 return to the bench and respondent will be 

20 allowed to cross. We'll go off the record. 

21 (Off record) 

22 JUDGE GOODWIN : I' ll remind the 

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1 witness that you're still under oath. 

2 Counselor? And what we'll do is I'm going to 

3 ask counsel to keep an eye on the clock. And 

4 when we get around noon and you get to a 

5 logical breaking point, we'll break for lunch. 

6 I've tried cases where the judge -- the second 

7 hand will hit the 12:00 and okay, we're off 

8 the record. And walks out and you're halfway 

9 through a sentence. So I don't do that. 

10 MS. HOZUBIN: Thank you. 

11 JUDGE GOODWIN: He was one of my 

12 favorite judges. But let me tell you, at 

13 12:00 o'clock, out the door. 

14 JUDGE GOODWIN: Go ahead, counsel. 

15 CROSS EXAMINATION 

16 BY MS. HOZUBIN: 

17 Q All right. Good morning, Mr. 

18 Gaytan. 

19 A Good morning. 

20 Q In this particular instance, is it 

21 fair to say that you assumed that the epoxy 

22 was hazmat? 

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1 A Yes. 

2 Q Okay. And you didn't know for 

3 certain, correct? 

4 A Well, like I said before, you 

5 know, there' s some words there that, you know, 

6 you raise a red flag. 

7 Q But in this case there were no 

8 warnings on the epoxy? Or did you look? 

9 A Well, I looked at the epoxy, but I 

10 didn't see any. 

11 Q Okay. And did you see any on the 

12 box? 

13 A No, I did not. 

14 Q Is it also fair to say once you 

15 hand off the materials to Mr. Dexheimer that 

16 there you're kind of out of the picture at 

17 that point with respect to what's being 

18 shipped? 

19 A That's correct. 

20 Q And are you aware of whether or 

21 not TGI ships non-hazmat materials as well? 

22 A I'm pretty sure that they do. And 

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1 

2 Q In this instance, was a tool --

3 A Yeah. The actual gun itself is 

4 not a hazardous material. But like I said, 

5 the ammunition 1s so --

6 Q And other miscellaneous tools that 

7 were in a toolbox as well? Those went along 

8 with 

9 A That's what was in the ram jet. 

10 So yes. 

11 Q Okay. 

12 A They're parts of again so. 

13 Q Now, prior to this in 2010, 

14 Lockheed Martin had not trained you in hazmat 

15 transportation, had they? 

16 A Hazmat transportation? No. 

17 Q Okay. And is it fair to say that 

18 you, at that time in 2010, were not familiar 

19 with the federal regulations that govern 

20 hazmat transportation? 

21 A No . 

22 Q Okay. When you arrived 1n 

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1 Ketchikan you didn't immediately need the 

2 epoxy, did you? 

3 A No, I did not. 

4 Q All right. So it wasn't a big 

5 deal that it didn't arrive until slightly 

6 later? 

7 A That's correct. 

8 Q And 1n this case you didn't look 

9 at an MSDS regarding the epoxy prior to giving 

10 it to Mr. Dexheimer, did you? 

11 A That's correct. 

12 Q What kind of vessel you 

13 mentioned a boat brought you out to Misty 

14 Island. 

15 A Uh-huh. (Affirmative) 

16 Q What kind of boat was it? 

17 A It was a landing craft. 

18 Q Okay. And who owned the landing 

19 craft? 

20 A The company name was Island 

21 Haulers . 

22 Q How big was that boat? 

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1 A That's a good question. Maybe 3 0, 

2 40 feet. 

3 Q Do you know if any declarations 

4 were made to that company regarding -- well, 

5 let me back up. Once the epoxy made it to 

6 Ketchikan, where did it go from there? 

7 A It went onto the boat. 

8 Q Onto the boat? Okay. 

9 A Yes. 

10 Q And it was transported to Misty 

11 Island? 

12 A Yes. 

13 Q All right. 

14 A Well, we had two boats. 

15 Q Two? 

16 A The initial, when we first went 

17 out there for that site survey, was the 

18 landing craft. We took two boats. The other 

19 one was named the Crane. And so that's where 

20 all our materials went. It was a bigger boat. 

21 Q Do you know if any declarations 

22 were made regarding hazardous materials on the 

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1 Crane? 

2 A Yes. 

3 Q They were? 

4 A Yes. Well, we told them what we 

5 had. And we had a hazardous materials locker 

6 onboard. 

7 Q Did you use all the epoxy on the 

8 island? 

9 A I believe so. 

10 Q Okay. Did you bring any back? 

11 A No, I did not. 

12 Q I believe those are all the 

13 questions I have for you. Thank you. 

14 A Okay. 

15 JUDGE GOODWIN: Any redirect? 

16 MS. JONES: Yes. 

17 JUDGE GOODWIN: You have to stay 

18 up there. 

19 A Oh. 

20 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 

21 BY MS. JONES: 

22 Q Mr. Gaytan, you indicated that 

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1 there were some words on the container of the 

2 epoxy that tipped you off that it was hazmat. 

3 Do you recollect what those words were? 

4 A Well, just the epoxy and adhesive. 

5 So those are the words that 

6 MS. JONES: Thank you, Your Honor. 

7 No further questions. 

8 JUDGE GOODWIN: Again I'm going to 

9 instruct you not to discuss your testimony 

10 with anybody prior to the conclusion of the 

11 hearing. You may step down. And counsel, 

12 when a witness is excused by the court, I'll 

13 leave it to you as to whether you want the 

14 witness to remain or whether they can leave. 

15 If there 

16 MS. JONES: Oh. 

17 JUDGE GOODWIN: If there's a -- I 

18 mean this 1s -- we're not living in a big 

19 community here so if you excuse somebody and 

20 subject to recall, I'll understand. So s1r, 

21 you may step down . 

22 A Okay. 

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1 JUDGE GOODWIN: Counsel, call your 

2 next witness. 

3 MS. JONES: Robert Dexheimer. 

4 JUDGE GOODWIN: Stand and ralse 

5 your right hand. 

6 (Oath administered) 

7 MR. DEXHEIMER: I do. 

8 ROBERT LYLE DEXHEIMER 

9 called as a witness on behalf of the 

10 complainant, testified as follows on: 

11 DIRECT EXAMINATION 

12 JUDGE GOODWIN: Please be seated. 

13 State your full name for the record and spell 

14 your first and last name. 

15 A Robert Lyle Dexheimer, R-0-B-E-R-T 

16 D-E-X-H-E-I- M-E-R. 

17 JUDGE GOODWIN: Counsel? 

18 BY MS. JONES: 

19 Q Mr. Dexheimer, where do you work? 

20 A I work in the FAA warehouse for 

21 the FAA . 

22 Q And how long have you worked for 

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1 the FAA? 

2 A Since May of 1988. 

3 Q And what have you -- what did you 

4 do before working for the Federal Aviation 

5 Administration? 

6 A Well, after high school I went to 

7 college for one year. And then I joined the 

8 was in the Air Force from 1967 to 1997. 

9 Q And in the Air Force, what did you 

10 do? 

11 A I worked 1n logistics. 

12 Q And did you do that the entire 

13 time for the Air Force? 

14 A Yes. 

15 Q And 1n your work for the FAA, what 

16 have you done? 

17 A I'm a logistics management 

18 specialist. Our main job out in the warehouse 

19 is we receive, we warehouse, and we ship 

20 project materials for the FAA and the 

21 contractors that are assigned to the 

22 warehouse. 

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1 Q So what contractors do you do 

2 logistics for? 

3 A We ship for Parsons, Lockheed, and 

4 Crown Consulting. 

5 Q And how does that work, shipping 

6 for a contractor? 

7 A The contractors -- they'll bring 

8 all their materials that they want shipped for 

9 a specific site. They'll bring it, you know, 

10 usually on a pallet down to our end of the --

11 the shipping end of the warehouse. We'll ask 

12 do you have any hazmat to be shipped and it's 

13 either yes or no. If they do have hazmat to 

14 ship, it's separated. I take it over to-- I 

15 or one of my coworkers -- we take it over to 

16 TGI Freight and inform them that we do have 

17 hazmat to ship. And tell them who it's for, 

18 where it's going. The rest of the freight, we 

19 just palletize and get it all ready for either 

20 air shipment or surface shipment and take it 

21 to the whichever carrier the contractors 

22 wanted to go on. 

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1 Q Do you typically use TGI Freight 

2 for things other than hazmat? 

3 A No. 

4 Q Why not? 

5 A Because I can ship that myself. 

6 There's nothing special about shipping regular 

7 freight. It's just you get it all-- you label 

8 it all and you take it to the air carrier and 

9 tell them where you -- you know, where you 

10 want it to go and when it has to be there. 

11 Q So why is it that the FAA uses TGI 

12 Freight for hazmat shipments? 

13 A Because we don't ship enough 

14 hazmat to stay proficient in doing the 

15 packaging and the paperwork. 

16 Q So yourself do you have 

17 training in shipment of hazardous materials? 

18 A Yes, I do. 

19 MS. JONES: Counsel, I'm going to 

20 refer to C-29. Your Honor, may I approach? 

21 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes . 

22 Q Mr. Dexheimer, I am showing you 

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1 what's been marked for identification 

2 Complainant's Exhibit C-29. Can you tell me 

3 what that is? 

4 A Well, it's a learning -- it's my 

5 training history from the time I basically 

6 came onboard the FAA until 2011. Yeah. This 

7 is all my training. It has hazmat. It also 

8 has FAA training on here. 

9 Q Can you point out in that training 

10 history the applicable hazardous materials 

11 training that you have had? 

12 A Yes. Okay. Now, see I had 

13 hazardous material shipping in 1993. I had 

14 hazardous waste and emergency response 1n 

15 1998. I had hazardous material shipping in 

16 2000. I've had hazardous materials 

17 regulations, enforcement, and safety in 1990. 

18 Hazardous materials transportation in 2004. 

19 A hazardous material refresher in 2007. And 

20 then I had a EOSH awareness training in 2007. 

21 And then in -- I have a certificate back at 

22 work. I just finished hazmat training in June 

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1 of 2011. 

2 Q And what training was that you 

3 just finished in 2011? 

4 A That -- the hazmat transportation 

5 training. 

6 Q And how long of a course was that? 

7 A Oh. I didn't look at that. I 

8 didn't look at my certificate as to how many 

9 how long. It covered CFR49 and IATA 

10 regulations. 

11 Q And while you were in the 

12 military, did you have any hazardous materials 

13 training? 

14 A No. 

15 Q None then? So just in within 

16 the FAA? Your position in the FAA? 

17 A Just with-- yes. 

18 MS. JONES: Your Honor, the FAA 

19 asks that Complainant's Exhibit C-29 be 

20 admitted. 

21 JUDGE GOODWIN: Counsel? 

22 MS. HOZUBIN: I think I would only 

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1 have to object on relevance. 

2 JUDGE GOODWIN: Overruled. 

3 Complainant's 29 for application is received 

4 ln evidence as proposed 29. 

5 (Complainant's exhibit C-29 

6 admitted) 

7 Q Mr. Dexheimer, when -- were you 

8 involved with a shipment concerning a weather 

9 camera mobilization for the Misty Fiords 

10 project? 

11 A Yes, I was . 

12 Q What was your involvement ln that 

13 project? 

14 A Well, it was my responsibility to, 

15 you know, ship the material to Ketchikan to 

16 make sure that it made it down there when the 

17 crew was going down to do the project. 

18 Q Do you recall whether or not any 

19 hazmat got shipped for that project? 

20 A Yes, it did. 

21 Q What happened with the hazmat 

22 materials being shipped on that project? 

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1 A The hazmat that we knew for sure, 

2 we set that -- that was basically set aside. 

3 The Pro-Poxy was a kind of a question. So 

4 with the -- you know, with the word epoxy, we 

5 said we'll take it over to TGI Freight for 

6 shipping. Because I did not know if it was 

7 hazardous or not. 

8 Q So you're saying the word epoxy 

9 caused you to question the 

10 A It did, yes. Because most 

11 epox1es, you know, they're two part. Some --

12 most epoxies, you know, you have one part that 

13 is hazardous, another part that isn't. So--

14 now, when in doubt, take it to the experts. 

15 Q So what did you do? 

16 A I took -- we loaded -- I loaded 

17 the stuff, all the material in the back of our 

18 truck. Drove it over to TGI Freight. Gave it 

19 to the -- to Jeff in the warehouse and says I 

2 0 have this hazmat to ship to Ketchikan for 

21 Parsons . And it's going -- I tell him the 

22 carrier. It's going on Alaska Airlines. 

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1 Because that way they will do all of the 

2 paperwork and do the shipping for us. 

3 Q And what did Jeff say to you? 

4 A Well, yeah. He's got -- they've 

5 got a form that he -- that we fill out. You 

6 know, who it's from, where it's going, what it 

7 is. And this one here just had, you know, 

8 basically miscellaneous hazmat. And I signed 

9 that. Signed the bottom of it. And he said 

10 we'll take care of it. And that's-- then my 

11 job was done. 

12 Q And do you know what happened with 

13 that shipment? 

14 A No, I don 1 t. Well 1 I didn 1 t know 

15 until after the fact. 

16 Q And what happened after the fact 

17 then? 

18 A After the fact 1 Jose Gaytan came 

19 down with a letter. He says I got this letter 

2 0 stating that they were being -- you know, they 

21 had gotten a letter -- their headquarters had 

22 gotten a letter stating that they would --

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1 they shipped -- tried to ship hazmat material 

2 without declaring it. So we took he didn't 

3 know where TGI Freight was or who to talk with 

4 over there, so I took him over to TGI Freight. 

5 And again we, you know, talked to Jeff. And 

6 then Jeff-- I don't know if he called Todd or 

7 -- we went up -- all went up and talked to 

8 Todd. 

9 Q When you say Jeff, you're speaking 

10 of Jeff 

11 A In the warehouse. 

12 Q TGI Freight's warehouse? 

13 A TGI Freight's Jeff. I don't know 

14 his last name. 

15 Q Okay. TGI Freight's Jeff. Okay. 

16 A Yes. 

17 Q Okay. 

18 A The cheese head. 

19 Q Okay. All right. And so you took 

20 Jose Gaytan over to TGI Freight to find out 

21 what had happened with this undeclared 

22 shipment. 

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1 A Uh-huh. Yes. 

2 Q And what happened when you went 

3 over to TGI Freight? 

4 MS. HOZUBIN: Asked and answered, 

5 Your Honor. 

6 JUDGE GOODWIN: Overruled. 

7 A I wasn't paying that much 

8 attention to the conversations. I just took 

9 him over. He showed him the Todd the 

10 letter. And that's all I remember is Todd 

11 said well, it's --you know, we'll take care 

12 of it. And that's all. I wasn't pay1ng 

13 attention to the -- because I was -- basically 

14 I thought I was out of the loop. 

15 Q Okay. Mr. Dexheimer, you 

16 indicated you had a chance to look at the tube 

17 of Pro-Poxy 400 and the label on it. 

18 A Yes. 

19 MS. JONES: Your Honor, may I 

20 approach? 

21 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes . 

22 MS. JONES: Counsel, I'm going to 

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1 show him Exhibit C-14 for identification. 

2 Q And take a look at these and see 

3 if you recognize those photos. 

4 A Yes. These were on the pro -- on 

5 the box. The Pro-Poxy boxes. 

6 Q So looking at Exhibit C-14, page 

7 one, were there any words on that that 

8 label or any of the other labels that tipped 

9 you off that this product, Pro-Poxy 400, might 

10 have been hazardous? 

11 A Yeah. The word epoxy. 

12 Q Were there any other words that 

13 tipped you off? Or was 

14 A Not on the -- not on this first 

15 one -- first exhibit. 

16 Q Okay. 

17 MS. JONES: Your Honor, 

18 complainant asks that Exhibit C-14, page one, 

19 be admitted. 

20 MS. HOZUBIN: No objection to page 

21 one, Your Honor . 

22 JUDGE GOODWIN: Are you going to 

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1 admit those as individual exhibits -- pages 

2 one through four? It doesn 1 t make any 

3 difference to me. I just want to chart it. 

4 MS. JONES: Yes. 

5 JUDGE GOODWIN: So you 1 re going to 

6 do it? Okay. So complainant 1 S Exhibit 14 1 

7 page one of four 1 is admitted. 

8 (Complainant 1 s exhibit C-14 

9 admitted) 

10 MS. JONES: Your Honor/ I don 1 t 

11 think the FAA has any further questions of Mr. 

12 Dexheimer at this time. 

13 JUDGE GOODWIN: Cross? 

14 CROSS EXAMINATION 

15 BY MS. HOZUBIN: 

16 Q Good morning/ Mr. Dexheimer. 

17 A Good morning. 

18 Q I believe your testimony was 

19 earlier that the contractors bring you the 

2 0 equipment they want shipped and the i terns they 

21 want shipped. You ask the question whether 

22 it 1 S hazmat and you 1 re expecting a yes or no 

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1 answer. And then you do your job from there, 

2 correct? 

3 A That's correct. 

4 Q All right. So it's not for you to 

5 make the determination on whether something is 

6 hazardous or not. You rely on the contractors 

7 to do that, correct? 

8 A In the most cases, yes. Because 

9 they do know what's hazmat and what isn't. 

10 Q Was there a camera shipped at that 

11 time? Do you recall? 

12 A I don't recall. 

13 Q Do you recall anything else that 

14 was shipped during that time, other than the 

15 epoxy that we've been talking about? 

16 A No. That's been two years ago. 

17 Q All right. 

18 A I don't know. 

19 Q Fair to say you had to refresh 

2 0 your recollection before you came here to 

21 testify? All right. Is it also fair to say 

22 that you don't have a specific recollection of 

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1 actually speaking with Todd Clark that day 

2 that you went to TGI Freight with Mr. Gaytan? 

3 A I don't recall speaking to him, 

4 no. 

5 Q Okay. And you don't know whether 

6 a phone call was made to him or whether he was 

7 actually there; is that correct? 

8 A Yeah. I don't know. 

9 Q Okay. And in this particular 

10 instance, was it Mr. Gaytan who told you that 

11 the Pro-Poxy might have been hazmat and 

12 therefore it should be shipped with TGI? 

13 A Yes. 

14 Q Okay. Thank you. Those are all 

15 the questions I have. 

16 JUDGE GOODWIN: Any redirect? 

17 MS. JONES: Yes, Your Honor. I 

18 do. 

19 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 

20 BY MS. JONES: 

21 Q You indicated 1n your testimony 

22 that 1n most cases you rely on what the 

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1 contractor indicates. In this case, when Mr. 

2 Gaytan brought the products down, do you 

3 remember what he said to you? 

4 A Well, he asked do you think this 

5 is -- this could be hazmat. And we looked. 

6 And we saw, okay, epoxy. When in doubt, we' 11 

7 take it --you know, we'll just defer to the 

8 safe side and assume that it is hazmat, which 

9 we do a lot. We assume things are hazmat and 

10 take them over if we don't know for sure and 

11 we don't have the MSDS . 

12 Q So did you make some 

13 determinations yourself? 

14 A Yes. When I saw epoxy, okay, 

15 we'll take it over just to be safe. 

16 Q So you, yourself made an 

17 evaluation. 

18 A Yes. Because he didn't Mr. 

19 Gaytan didn't know for sure. So me, as the 

20 shipper helping him, assisting him with 

21 shipping, I made the determination we'll take 

22 it over to TGI Freight and they can -- you 

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1 know 1 we 1 ll be safe that way versus us 

2 shipping it and getting into trouble. 

3 Q Okay. Thank you 1 Mr. Dexheimer. 

4 MS. JONES: No further questions/ 

5 Your Honor. 

6 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sir 1 I 1 m going to 

7 instruct you not to discuss your testimony 

8 with anybody prior to the conclusion of the 

9 hearing. It 1 s up to counsels whether you can 

10 remain in the area or not. Counsel/ call your 

11 next witness . 

12 MS. JONES: The FAA calls Mr. 

13 Deitz. 

14 (Oath administered) 

15 MR. DEITZ: I do. 

16 JEFFREY DEITZ 

17 called as a witness on behalf of the 

18 complainant/ testified as follows on: 

19 DIRECT EXAMINATION 

20 JUDGE GOODWIN: Please be seated. 

21 Spell your first and last name for the record . 

22 A Jeffrey Deitz 1 J-E-F-F-R-E-Y 

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1 D-E-I-T-Z. 

2 JUDGE GOODWIN: Counsel? 

3 BY MS. JONES: 

4 Q Mr. Deitz, what is your current 

5 position? 

6 A I am 1n the employed in the 

7 hazardous materials branch of the FAA, the 

8 security and hazardous materials division, as 

9 a special agent in hazardous materials 

10 specialist. 

11 Q And how long have you been 

12 employed by the FAA in that capacity? 

13 A January '97. 

14 Q And what did you do before being a 

15 hazardous materials agent for the FAA? 

16 A I excuse me I worked for 

17 airline support directly before the FAA, as 

18 doing the all the cargo and hazardous 

19 materials paperwork and customs. So for the 

20 all Russian carriers that were coming through 

21 at that time. And then before that I was with 

22 Mark Air and Mark Air Express, where I started 

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1 out as a cargo acceptance agent. And had the 

2 hazmat training there. And then went on to 

3 train be an instructor for hazardous 

4 materials and security. 

5 Q When did you begin working for 

6 Mark Air? 

7 A 1990. 

8 Q And through what year with Mark 

9 Air? 

10 A It had been oh, I think it was 

11 right at the beginning of '96. 

12 Q And you indicated you did training 

13 for Mark Air. 

14 A Yes. 

15 Q And that training was in -- as a 

16 hazardous materials 

17 A Correct. 

18 Q And prior to that? 

19 A I was in the Army. 

20 Q So are you currently certified in 

21 hazardous materials? Your own personal 

22 certifications and training? Could you 

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1 discuss those? 

2 A Well, am I trained? Yes. 

3 Q Yes. 

4 A Do I have something that says you 

5 are 11 certified 11 ? I have several, you know, 

6 diplomas, certificates of completion. There 

7 is no 11 certification 11 that means something 

8 a little something difference to us, like an 

9 IATA or ICAO certification they have like for 

10 cargo agents and things 1 ike. Although I have 

11 been to that course. So with the FAA, we went 

12 to -- in '97, a three-week course. A basic 

13 course in hazardous materials. And then 

14 several times throughout each year we would 

15 have what -- for recurrent training would be 

16 what they have in individual or interactive 

17 video telecommunication thing that in this 

18 building we have it set up. And with Oklahoma 

19 City they would teach they would have 

20 instructors there teaching the classes. Most 

21 of it was changes, different things. You 

22 know, what's new and things like that. 

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1 MS. JONES: Counsel, I'm going to 

2 show Mr. Deitz C-30, Your Honor, may I 

3 approach? 

4 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. 

5 Q I'm showing you what's been marked 

6 for identification Complainant's Exhibit C-30. 

7 Can you tell me what that is? 

8 A It looks like a printout of all 

9 the different courses, some hazmat, some not, 

10 that we've taken with the FAA -- or I have 

11 taken with the FAA . 

12 Q Would you identify in that 

13 training history -- learning history of -- for 

14 yourself, which of those are considered 

15 hazardous materials training that you have 

16 had? 

17 A I don't think you wanted to g1ve 

18 me these yet. It looks like it's going --

19 Q You might look to the back and 

20 maybe go forward. 

21 A Well, yeah. It goes backwards, 

22 forwards because it's oldest to the newest. 

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1 The first one was again 6/5/97, which is the 

2 air transportation of dangerous goods. Then 

3 the next one up would have been 1n '97, with 

4 the 12/4, which would have been one of the 

5 IVTs (ph) for transportation of dangerous 

6 goods. Then in '98 there was another one. IVT 

7 -- there are two listed there, 9/2 and 12/2. 

8 Oh, actually then in '99, 3/10 and 6/9/99. 

9 9/15/99, 3/15/2000, 6/14/2000, 2/7/2001, 

10 8/24/2001, 3/26/2002, 1/29/2003, 12/17/2003, 

11 8/12/2004, 3/31/2005, 1/6/2006, 8/30/2006. 

12 That one's listed twice -- interesting. Well, 

13 and they put one in they shouldn't have. 

14 Okay. 4/5/2007. 

15 Q And these dates that you're 

16 articulating, these are all for 

17 A The individual or interactive 

18 video training. 

19 Q In --

20 A Transportation of dangerous goods. 

21 Q Currently, are you -- do you still 

22 attend the var1ous training in the 

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1 transportation of dangerous goods? 

2 A Yes. 

3 Q And what type of training do you 

4 attend nowadays? 

5 A Are you say1ng that myself as a 

6 participant or as a guest at quality assurance 

7 type or what? I'm not sure of the question. 

8 Q Whatever type of training that 

9 you're affiliated with in that area. Do you 

10 go as a participant? 

11 A Well, the last one I went to was 

12 actually last week. I went to one of Mr. 

13 Peters' classes. We'll go there and sit and 

14 listen and answer questions. I've been to Mr. 

15 Smith-- Mark Smith's classes at Northern Air 

16 sometimes. Go to Alaska Airlines for their 

17 cargo people, when they have the class up 

18 here. So we go to the classes there. I've 

19 been to some EMI (ph) classes. And depending 

20 upon the class, you know, what it 1s we do, 

21 how much time we are given . 

22 Q So your participation in these 

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1 classes consists of what? 

2 A Well, if it's a recurrent class 

3 and the people are already supposed to be 

4 trained, we normally talk about either some 

5 current trends, new things that are coming up, 

6 which are a lot of the changes -- like this 

7 year a lot of changes to the rules for the 

8 definitions of what is -- what can be shipped 

9 as a consumer commodity, like an ORM-D, which 

10 are go1ng away. For an initial class, 

11 definitely pass around pictures. We talk about 

12 past instances. Of FAA's role, you know, and 

13 -- you know, how we interact with them as 

14 either a1r carriers or shippers. 

15 Q So you currently are attending 

16 classes that other people are putting on, as 

17 a presenter? 

18 A Yes. But I am not attending the 

19 class as an attendee. More as a guest. 

2 0 Sometimes as a guest speaker or we stop in and 

21 check different things for, you know, quality 

22 assurance and things like that. 

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1 Q And making presentations yourself? 

2 A Not always. Normally, yes. 

3 Q And how often do you attend 

4 presentation of or attend courses where 

5 you're making presentations on behalf of the 

6 FAA? 

7 A Quarterly. And it's not really--

8 I guess you could say because of my position 

9 I'm representing the FAA. But it's not a 

10 formal request to the FAA where I'm sent there 

11 to do a presentation. Most of it is the 

12 different instructors in the industry will 

13 invite me to come in on one of the days that 

14 they're teaching the class. Whatever fits my 

15 schedule and depending upon if I'm behind or 

16 ahead of what they've got going on. They may 

17 give me enough-- you know, a certain amount 

18 of time. There's generally more time in an 

19 initial class than on a recurring class. 

20 Q So have you attended classes that 

21 Mr. Peters has put on? 

22 A Yes. 

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1 Q Do -- as part of your job duties, 

2 do you conduct investigations? 

3 A Yes. 

4 Q Did you have cause to investigate 

5 an incident concerning an undeclared shipment 

6 of Pro-Poxy that has been discussed in this 

7 case? 

8 A Yes. 

9 Q And how did that come to your 

10 attention? 

11 A I was notified by Alaska Airlines 

12 that they had undeclared hazardous materials. 

13 Q And how were you notified by 

14 Alaska Airlines? 

15 A Generally v1a email. They will 

16 list 

17 Q And --

18 A They will say, hey, this is what 

19 we have. And they'll list the commodity. 

20 They'll list who the shipper was, who the 

21 cons1gnee was, based upon their paperwork . 

22 Q And that's generally how in your 

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1 duties you're informed by Alaska Airlines of 

2 a violation? 

3 A Correct. 

4 Q Did you receive such an email 1n 

5 this particular case? 

6 A I believe so, yes. I didn't look 

7 at that portion of the file. 

8 MS. JONES: Your Honor, may I 

9 approach? 

10 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. 

11 MS. JONES: C-1 . 

12 MS. HOZUBIN: Thank you. 

13 Q Mr. Deitz, I'm showing you what's 

14 been marked C-1. 

15 A Yes. 

16 MS. JONES: Before we get there, I 

17 ask that complainant's Exhibit C-30 be 

18 admitted. 

19 MS. HOZUBIN: No objection, Your 

20 Honor. 

21 JUDGE GOODWIN: Complainant's 

22 I'm sorry. What was the number? Oh. 

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1 A C-1. 

2 MS. JONES: That's Mr. Deitz' 

3 training history. 

4 A Oh, no. The training history is 

5 C-30. 

6 JUDGE GOODWIN : c you said 

7 C-30, right? 

8 A That was C-30. 

9 MS. JONES: C-30. C-30. 

10 JUDGE GOODWIN: Complainant's 

11 MS. JONES: Marked for ID C-30 be 

12 admitted. 

13 JUDGE GOODWIN: C-30 for 

14 identification is received into evidence as 

15 C-30. 

16 (Complainant's exhibit C-30 

17 admit ted) 

18 JUDGE GOODWIN: And I thought you 

19 were referring to an email. 

20 MS. JONES: Yeah. I --

21 A Oh, the email she has labeled as 

22 C-1. 

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1 MS. JONES: C-1 is what we will be 

2 talking about. 

3 JUDGE GOODWIN: I'm sorry? 

4 MS. JONES: C-1 will -- we will 

5 talk about that one. 

6 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 

7 MS. JONES: I didn't want to 

8 forget. 

9 MS. JONES: So with respect to 

10 C-30, Your Honor, I didn't --wasn't sure. I 

11 think 

12 JUDGE GOODWIN: C-30 was admitted. 

13 MS. JONES: Okay. 

14 Q Okay. Mr. Deitz, do you recognize 

15 Complainant's Exhibit C-1 that's been marked 

16 for identification? 

17 A Yes. 

18 Q And what is that, sir? 

19 A It's an email to my coworker, Gary 

20 Meters (ph), and myself from Alaska Airlines. 

21 Q Is this the email that you have 

22 been discussing? 

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1 A Yes. 

2 Q And what does that email -- what 

3 did that email tell you? 

4 A It says that there is undeclared 

5 hazmat, the airway bill number, the shipper, 

6 which they list as Parsons. And it says that 

7 -- underneath what the commodity is four 

8 boxes of Unitex Pro-Poxy 400 and it's in four 

9 cardboard boxes. And then it tells me where 

10 it staged so that when I go to Alaska Airlines 

11 to look at it, I know where it is -- and so 

12 does their lead. 

13 Q And so this 1s the email you 

14 received from Alaska Airlines that you just 

15 discussed? 

16 A Yes. 

17 Q And what did you do when you 

18 received this email? 

19 A With this -- when I get the email, 

20 then I know that I'm going to go to Alaska 

21 Airlines. I don't remember in this case if I 

22 did it before or after. But knowing the 

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1 commodity -- if I know the exact commodity, I 

2 will try and get a material safety data sheet 

3 before I go. Because before I open a case I 

4 try and determine if something 1s or is not 

5 and what it is. Then I go out to Alaska 

6 Airlines. And I generally go into the office 

7 and one of the people -- the cargo leads --

8 will be able to give me obviously the 

9 screening records, if they have -- still have 

10 them, the copy of the airway bill, things like 

11 that. And then the note tells us where it is . 

12 That it's here staged in the outbound area. 

13 And then -- so we go over there and look at it 

14 and I take photographs. 

15 Q Okay. 

16 A So --

17 MS. JONES: So, Your Honor, I ask 

18 that Complainant's Exhibit C-1 that's been 

19 marked for identification be admitted. 

20 JUDGE GOODWIN: Counsel? 

21 MS. HOZUBIN: We object as to 

22 hearsay and foundation. Mr. Deitz is not the 

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1 author of this document. 

2 JUDGE GOODWIN: Overruled. 

3 Complainant's 1 for identification is received 

4 into evidence as Complainant's 1. 

5 (Complainant's exhibit C-1 

6 admitted) 

7 Q Mr. Deitz, you indicated that you 

8 will note sometimes that you -- if you know 

9 the material that upon receiving these 

10 emails, that you will pull an MSDS. Did you 

11 pull the MSDS at this time? 

12 A Well, that's why I said I -- on 

13 this particular case, I know I pulled the 

14 MSDS. I pulled it several times. But whether 

15 or not I pulled it before I went out and had 

16 it on the way out there or pulled it as soon 

17 as I got back to the off ice, after I had 

18 pictures to verify that that's what it was, I 

19 currently don't remember that. 

20 Q But you did in fact pull the MSDS 

21 on this 

22 A Yes. 

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1 Q material? Okay. 

2 MS. JONES: Your Honor, may I 

3 approach? 

4 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. 

5 MS. JONES: And this lS C-9, 10, 

6 11, 12, 13. 

7 MS. HOZUBIN: C-9 through 13? 

8 MS. JONES: 9 through 13. And 15. 

9 But I have to get 14. 

10 Q If you could take a look at those, 

11 Mr. Deitz . 

12 A Uh-huh. (Affirmative) 

13 Q Do you recognize those photos? 

14 A Yes. 

15 Q Can you tell me what they are? 

16 Tell us what they are? 

17 A They're photos of the -- the first 

18 one is of the entire shipment on the pallet 

19 the four boxes of epoxy. And then the --

20 JUDGE GOODWIN: Which picture are 

21 you referring to, sir? 

22 Q Yeah. 

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1 A Oh. That would be the first one 

2 one of one, C-9. 

3 Q C-9. 

4 A I'm sorry. 

5 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yeah. When you 

6 refer to the picture, refer to 

7 A Well, with this 

8 JUDGE GOODWIN : -- the exhibit 

9 number. 

10 A Okay. 

11 JUDGE GOODWIN: Because remember. 

12 We're doing a transcript. 

13 A Okay. 

14 JUDGE GOODWIN : I can see you. 

15 But if somebody 

16 A Oh. 

17 JUDGE GOODWIN: -- wants to later 

18 read the transcript, it's like what are you 

19 talking about. 

20 A All right. C-9 is a picture of a 

21 at the Alaska Airlines warehouse of 

22 everything that was on the pallet that was the 

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1 shipment. Separate air bills and stuff. But 

2 that was everything being shipped. The four 

3 white boxes on that one are the Pro-Poxy. 

4 Q I see. And did you take this 

5 photo? 

6 A I took that photo. 

7 Q Okay. So on this photo, the four 

8 white boxes are the Pro-Poxy? 

9 A Correct. 

10 Q And the other two --

11 A Was like the Cadweld shot and some 

12 of the other stuff which 

13 Q Part of the part of the 

14 shipment. 

15 A They were just part of the 

16 shipment, so they were there together. 

17 Q Okay. All right. And C-10 

18 A And C-10 is the top of the four 

19 boxes. 

20 Q And this top of the four boxes of 

21 

22 A Pro-Poxy. 

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1 Q -- the Pro-Poxy. 

2 A Yes. 

3 Q And again you took that photo? 

4 A Yes, ma'am. 

5 Q And C-11? 

6 A And C-11 is a close-up of the 

7 Ketchikan freight tag with the waybill that 

8 Alaska Airlines put on, as well as the to and 

9 from addresses there. 

10 Q And the waybill references which 

11 waybill number? 

12 A The 33719873. 

13 Q Okay. And -- and it refers to who 

14 shipped it? 

15 A The way -- the tag? 

16 Q Yes. 

17 A No. You would have to go to the 

18 waybill. That number and that information 

19 would be on the waybill. 

20 Q Okay. And C-12? 

21 A And that's one of the boxes of 

22 epoxy open, showing the tubes of the Pro-Poxy 

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1 inside. 

2 Q And aga1n you took this photo? 

3 A Correct. 

4 MS. JONES: And complainant asks 

5 that Exhibit C-9, C-10, C-11, and C-12 be 

6 admitted. 

7 MS. HOZUBIN: No objection, Your 

8 Honor. 

9 JUDGE GOODWIN: Complainant's 9 

10 for identification is received into evidence 

11 as Complainant's 9. 

12 (Complainant's exhibit C-9 

13 admitted) 

14 JUDGE GOODWIN: Complainant's 10 

15 for identification is received into evidence 

16 as Complainant's 10. 

17 (Complainant's exhibit C-10 

18 admitted) 

19 JUDGE GOODWIN: And complainant's 

20 11 is received into evidence as Complainant's 

21 11 . 

22 (Complainant's exhibit C-11 

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1 admitted) 

2 MS. HOZUBIN: Your Honor, to 

3 clarify, did we get through C-11 or C-12? 

4 JUDGE GOODWIN: Did she ask for 

5 C-12? 

6 MS. JONES: Yes. 

7 A Yes. 

8 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 

9 Complainant's 12 for identification is 

10 received into evidence as Complainant's 12. 

11 (Complainant's exhibit C-12 

12 admitted) 

13 MS. JONES: May I approach? C-19. 

14 Q Mr. Deitz. 

15 A Yes. 

16 Q Can you please identify C-19 

17 that's been marked for identification, please? 

18 A It 1s a materials safety data 

19 sheet for the Pro-Poxy 400. 

20 Q And 1s that the material safety 

21 data sheet that you have been discussing, that 

22 you pulled when you looked up the Pro-Poxy 

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1 400? 

2 A It's at least a copy of it, if not 

3 of it. 

4 Q And when you pulled the materials 

5 safety data sheet, can you tell me what you 

6 did to obtain that? 

7 A At the computer I just went to the 

8 Google search. I typed in Pro-Poxy 400 MSDS. 

9 It searched and then of course the listing 

10 comes up. And the first one there was the 

11 MSDS. Click on it and it's there . 

12 Q And what site did you pull it 

13 from? 

14 A Well, it's just-- I mean the MSDS 

15 was what it was. I mean sometimes you have to 

16 go to a manufacturer's site and, you know, go 

17 through a list of things, which is one thing 

18 I did this morning going through. Unilever 

19 I had to go to a Unilever site. Then go to 

20 Unilever MSDSs. Then look up every product, 

21 you know, that they have listed there. This 

22 particular one, under Google when you type 

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1 that 1n it pops right up and it's the very 

2 first thing. And you just hit it and-- it's 

3 not a site. It's just the MSDS. 

4 Q So you went and pulled up --

5 A So I --

6 Q Googled 

7 A I Googled the Pro-Poxy 400 

8 MSDS. 

9 Q And this is the one you got 

10 that pulled up? That you pulled up? This is 

11 the MSDS you pulled up for this case? 

12 A Or one like it, yes. 

13 Q Is this the one 

14 A I mean this looks like a copy. I 

15 believe I printed mine out in color -- the 

16 originals for the case. But it looks like the 

17 same MSDS. 

18 Q So would this be a fair and 

19 accurate copy of the one you pulled up then? 

20 A Yes. 

21 Q Okay. Thank you. From this MSDS, 

22 what did you learn about the Pro-Poxy 400? 

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1 A That it is regulated. They 

2 under two spots that we generally -- well, we 

3 look at actually three spots. Main -- three 

4 ma1n spots. One is the composition, which in 

5 this one is section three, for the types of 

6 materials that are involved-- the chemicals. 

7 And then in this particular one, section five, 

8 the firefighting, where it talks about the 

9 flashpoint. Where part A is rate -- is a 

10 hazmat, as far as flammable, and the part B is 

11 not. And then section 14, which will be the 

12 transportation information. And generally if 

13 something is not regulated, it is there. It 

14 will say not regulated per DOT there. And I 

15 remember I called the number on the front of 

16 the MSDS here to, __ because I had a question. 

17 At 65 degrees flashpoint, you would think it 

18 would be a packing group two. And I called 

19 them because they have it listed here as a 

20 packing group three. And in 173 -- I don't 

21 have the exact paragraph of where packing 

22 groups are assigned, there is a section in 

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1 there that says packing group two materials, 

2 if they're in small amounts and the viscosity 

3 is such -- you know, meet a whole lot of 

4 criteria, then they can ship it as a packing 

5 group three, which is what the manufacturer 

6 said they do -- and why they put it there as 

7 a three on the MSDS. 

8 Q So you indicated you looked to the 

9 this MSDS and you noted 1n three -- you 

10 checked three areas. And the first one you 

11 talked about was three, the composition 

12 information. And you noted that there is two 

13 components. 

14 A Uh-huh. (Affirmative) 

15 Q And one was of concern. Which 

16 component was it that was of concern? 

17 A MSDS part A is the flammable. 

18 Q Part A was flammable? 

19 A Yes. 

20 Q And then you checked part five, 

21 which 1s the firefighting measure section . 

22 And you were looking at the flashpoint. 

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1 A Correct. 

2 Q And again you looked at the -- it 

3 has two parts. And you were checking the part 

4 here -- it was part A again -- that was of 

5 concern. 

6 A Yes. Part A is listed as -- with 

7 its flashpoint, which 1s low enough to be 

8 rated as a flammable. 

9 Q And that being the 65 degrees 

10 Fahrenheit? 

11 A Correct. 

12 Q And then you indicated you also 

13 checked section 14. 

14 A Correct. 

15 Q The transportation information. 

16 And in the transportation information, are you 

17 saying that it describes how it's supposed to 

18 be shipped? 

19 A Well, it's the infor well, 

20 sometimes they -- they'll list it as this is 

21 how you ship it. But if you look at the 

22 section here, in the center it says hazard 

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1 class three, flammable liquid. Then it gives 

2 the proper shipping description, which is 

3 adhesive three, UN1133, packing group three. 

4 And that is a proper shipping description. 

5 Q Okay. Should the Pro-Poxy 400 

6 have a label? Some sort of a flammability 

7 label? 

8 A Well, yeah. 

9 Q Uh-huh. 

10 A I mean if you're shipping 

11 something that's a class three, you must have 

12 a class three label on there for air. 

13 Q And that's noted here in this 

14 transportation section itself, 1n the MSDS. 

15 A No. Sometimes it sometimes 

16 they'll say label required and they'll list 

17 what it 1s. 

18 Q So in this particular 

19 transportation information section in this 

20 MSDS, does it indicate anything about the 

21 flammable label here? 

22 A No. 

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1 Q Okay. All right. 

2 MS. JONES: Your Honor, I ask that 

3 complainant's Exhibit C-19 for identification 

4 be admitted into evidence. 

5 MS. HOZUBIN: No objection. 

6 JUDGE GOODWIN: Complainant's 19 

7 for identification is received into evidence 

8 as complainant's 19. 

9 (Complainant's exhibit C-19 

10 admitted) 

11 Q After you -- oh, maybe. It's 12. 

12 MS. HOZUBIN: Is this a good 

13 breaking point for you? 

14 MS. JONES: I was just thinking 

15 about that. Your Honor, it's 12:02. 

16 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Well, if 

17 you're at a good breaking point we'll break. 

18 If not 

19 MS. JONES: It's probably as good 

20 as any. 

21 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Then we'll 

22 break for lunch. I instruct the witness to 

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1 not discuss your testimony with anybody prior 

2 to the conclusion of the hearing. 

3 A Okay. 

4 JUDGE GOODWIN: We'll go off the 

5 record. Let's reconvene at 1:30. We're off 

6 the record. 

7 (Off record) 

8 JUDGE GOODWIN: We'll go back on 

9 the record. I'll advise the witness you're 

10 still under oath. 

11 A Yes, s1r. 

12 Q Mr. Deitz, as part of your 

13 certificate -- investigation, did you receive 

14 from Alaska Airlines the airway bill that you 

15 discussed in the photograph? 

16 A Yes. 

17 MS. JONES: Okay. Counsel, I'm 

18 going to be showing Mr. Deitz complainant's 

19 exhibits marked C-2 and C-3 for 

20 identification. Your Honor, may I approach? 

21 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sure . 

22 Q Mr. Deitz, I'm handing you 

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1 Exhibits C-2 and C-3 that are marked for 

2 identification. 

3 A Uh-huh. (Affirmative) 

4 Q Do you recognize those two 

5 exhibits? Take a look, please. 

6 A Yes. 

7 Q Could you take a look at C-2? And 

8 

9 A What was that one? 

10 Q tell the court what you 

11 what Exhibit C- 2 lS, please. 

12 A C-2 1s what the Alaska Airlines 

13 calls a source document. Or it's kind of a 

14 worksheet that's filled out at the door and is 

15 taken in. And then where the hazmat -- or the 

16 freight is described, dimensionalized, 

17 weighed, and then signed here. But they take 

18 all the pertinent information, which is then 

19 -- when the person that drops off the freight 

20 goes 1n, they enter it into the computer 

21 system. And then C-3 here is a copy of the 

22 a1rway bill as it is printed out of the 

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1 computer, which 1s what they keep on file. 

2 Q Okay. Looking at C-2, who is the 

3 shipper on this airway bill? 

4 A It says Parsons infrastructure up 

5 there. 

6 Q And what lS the nature and 

7 quantity of goods that 1s shipped? 

8 A Six cartons miscellaneous, 

9 non-hazardous tools and construction material. 

10 Q Do you recogn1ze who signed this 

11 document? 

12 A No. I do not. 

13 Q Does it indicate whether or not 

14 there are any hazardous goods contained within 

15 the shipment? 

16 A The block that -- well, there's 

17 two blocks underneath the signature. One that 

18 says this does not contain dangerous goods --

19 and that one is initialed. And the other one, 

2 0 that the shipment does contain, is left blank. 

21 So looking at this, it would indicate that 

22 there were none present. 

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1 Q And this is a worksheet for airway 

2 bill 02733719873? 

3 A Yes. 

4 Q So C-3 you've indicated is the 

5 computerized version of this worksheet? 

6 A Correct. 

7 Q And these two documents were sent 

8 to you by Alaska Airlines? 

9 A No. When I went to the -- their 

10 freight facility, I got copies of this. 

11 Q Okay. When you were investigating 

12 this particular case. 

13 A Yes. 

14 MS. JONES: Your Honor, I ask that 

15 complainant's Exhibit C-2 and C-3 be admitted. 

16 MS. HOZUBIN: No objection. 

17 JUDGE GOODWIN: C-2 for 

18 identification is received into evidence as 

19 Complainant's 2. 

20 (Complainant's exhibit C-2 

21 admit ted) 

22 JUDGE GOODWIN: And Complainant's 

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1 3 for identification is received into evidence 

2 as Complainant's 3. 

3 (Complainant's exhibit C-3 

4 admitted) 

5 Q Mr. Deitz, as part of your 

6 investigation, did you receive a hazardous 

7 materials incident report from Alaska 

8 Airlines? 

9 A Yes. 

10 MS. JONES: Counsel, I'm referring 

11 to complainant's Exhibit C-8. 

12 MS. HOZUBIN: Okay. 

13 MS. JONES: Your Honor, may I 

14 approach? 

15 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sorry about that. 

16 I'm trying to get this stupid thing -- I've 

17 owned this thing two days and I still haven't 

18 figured out what it does. 

19 Q Mr. Deitz, I'm showing you what's 

20 been marked as complainant's Exhibit C-8 for 

21 identification. Do you recognize this 

22 document? 

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1 A Yes. 

2 Q Can you tell us what that is? 

3 A a copy of a hazardous 

4 materials incident report -- or a DOT 5800.14. 

5 Q And what -- to what matter is this 

6 incident report concerning? 

7 A The shipment of the Pro-Poxy in 

8 question. 

9 Q And did you obtain this incident 

10 report in the investigation of this case? 

11 A Yes. 

12 Q And what did you learn from this 

13 report? 

14 A It's another piece of paper from 

15 or report from Alaska Airlines that on this 

16 date this is what they found. They have 

17 adhesives class three, 1133. That Parsons was 

18 the shipper because that's who's on the airway 

19 bill. And it through everything else 

20 that's on there. Also in the back, part s1x, 

21 it says it was discovered while screening and 

22 that we were notified. 

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1 Q Where on the report does it 

2 indicate that it was a hazardous material 

3 adhesive, I guess you said, was shipped? 

4 A Line 14. 

5 Q And so what does it say there? 

6 That 

7 A It says proper shipping name of 

8 hazardous material, adhesives containing a 

9 flammable liquid. 

10 Q And does it -- and you indicated 

11 it describes how it should have been shipped? 

12 A They list the proper shipping 

13 name, UN number, and class. 

14 Q And what do they list? 

15 A Here it says hazard class 30, but 

16 I'm sure they mean 3 because there is no 30. 

17 Just a finger skip. Identification number is 

18 UN1133. 

19 Q And you indicated that they found 

20 it during screening. What part was that at 

21 again? 

22 A That was on the last page of the 

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1 report, part s1x, under description of events. 

2 Q And it was at this point that they 

3 also indicated there that they notified FAA 

4 hazmat agents. And that would be yourself? 

5 A Yes, and Gary. 

6 MS. JONES: Your Honor, I ask that 

7 complainant's Exhibit C-8 be admitted. 

8 MS. HOZUBIN: Object, based on 

9 foundation. Mr. Deitz didn't prepare this. 

10 And hearsay as well. 

11 JUDGE GOODWIN: That goes to 

12 weight. Objection overruled. 

13 (Complainant's exhibit C-8 

14 admitted) 

15 Q After receiving the information 

16 from Alaska Airlines and taking the 

17 photographs of the shipment, what did you then 

18 do in your investigation, Mr. Deitz? 

19 A When I returned back to the 

20 office, I go into -- we have -- well, decide 

21 that we're going to proceed on, we go into 

22 we have a case log where I go and I entered 1n 

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1 the -- who the shipper was and my name as the 

2 case agent, the date that we were notified and 

3 investigated, what main violation that we sort 

4 of put in there in the log. And then so --

5 and that's where we assign it a case number. 

6 It's the next one in line. And then with that 

7 number and stuff, I sit down and write a what 

8 we call a letter of investigation, LI, and 

9 send that to the shipper. 

10 Q And who did you address the letter 

11 of investigation to in this case? 

12 A In this case, I addressed it to 

13 Parsons because they were listed on the 

14 waybill. And it was their cap number so 

15 MS. JONES: Counsel, I'm going to 

16 refer to complainant's Exhibit C-21 for 

17 identification. May I approach, Your Honor? 

18 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. 

19 Q Mr. Deitz, I'm showing you what's 

20 marked as Exhibit C-21 for identification. 

21 Can you take a look at that? Do you recognize 

22 C-21? 

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1 A Yes. 

2 Q And can you tell us what Exhibit 

3 C-21 is? 

4 A This is a copy of the letter that 

5 was sent to Parsons concerning the 

6 investigation. 

7 Q And ln this letter of 

8 investigation, what was your concern with the 

9 shipment? 

10 A Well, as it was reported, that the 

11 epoxy was an adhesive class three, flammable 

12 liquid. And that it was not declared when it 

13 was offered. 

14 Q And so in your letter of 

15 investigation, you were did you get a 

16 response to this letter of investigation? 

17 A Yes. 

18 Q And who did you get a response 

19 from? 

20 A I got a response from -- signed by 

21 Todd from TGI Freight. And he stated that 

22 they were the agent for all hazardous 

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1 materials for Parsons. And that he -- they 

2 accepted full responsibility for the shipment. 

3 He also said that he was getting ready to 

4 leave. Go out of -- I think it was out of 

5 town or something. And he needed I think it 

6 was 17 days or something. And that he would 

7 get back to me. And then he sent another 

8 letter after that. It was a full response. 

9 Q Okay. So you sent a this 

10 Exhibit C-21 1 this letter of investigation/ to 

11 Mr. Harrington at Parsons? 

12 A Yes. 

13 Q And got a response back from Mr. 

14 Clark at TGI Freight? 

15 A Yes. 

16 Q Okay. 

17 MS. JONES: I ask that 

18 complainant 1 s Exhibit C-21 be admitted. 

19 MS. HOZUBIN: No objection. 

20 JUDGE GOODWIN: Complainant 1 S 21 

21 for identification lS admitted as 

22 Complainant 1 S 21. 

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1 (Complainant's exhibit C-21 

2 admitted) 

3 MS. JONES: Your Honor, may I 

4 approach? 

5 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. 

6 MS. JONES: And I'll give counsel 

7 Exhibit 22. 

8 MS. HOZUBIN: Uh-huh. 

9 Q Mr. Deitz, I'm showing you 

10 complainant's exhibit marked C-22 for 

11 identification. Do you recognize this letter? 

12 A Yes. 

13 Q And what 1s this letter? 

14 A This is the first letter that I 

15 received. 

16 Q From? 

17 A From Mr. Clark from TGI Freight. 

18 Q And this letter indicated what 

19 from Mr. Clark? 

20 A Well, it says that he's the -- as 

21 TGI Freight represents Parsons Corporation as 

22 dangerous goods agent for all their -- for 

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1 their a1r shipments. And he requests that all 

2 correspondence, any dealings with this matter 

3 be referred to him. He said he's currently 

4 investigating the details and doesn't have 

5 enough information yet to make comment. And 

6 that he'll be traveling for the next 17 days 

7 and asked for more time. And that he would 

8 provide, you know, more details later. 

9 Q And did this letter respond to the 

10 shipment of Pro-Poxy 400 airway bill number 

11 33719873? 

12 A Yes. 

13 MS. JONES: Your Honor, I ask that 

14 complainant's Exhibit C-22 be admitted. 

15 MS. HOZUBIN: No objection. 

16 JUDGE GOODWIN: Complainant's 22 

17 for identification is received into evidence 

18 as Complainant's 22. 

19 (Complainant's exhibit C-22 

20 admitted) 

21 Q Did Mr. Clark send an additional 

22 response? 

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1 A Yes. 

2 MS. JONES: C-23, counsel. Your 

3 Honor, may I approach? 

4 Q Mr. Deitz, I'm showing you 

5 complainant's C-23 marked for identification. 

6 Do you recognize this letter? 

7 A Yes. 

8 Q And what is this letter? 

9 A This is the we call it the 

10 actual letter of response that that 

11 where he presents other information, you know, 

12 and you know, of what was asked for. 

13 Copies of the waybill, proof of Mr. Jueneman' s 

14 training. Other items of extenuating 

15 mitigation and that sort of thing. 

16 Q So this is the letter of response 

17 that Mr. Clark sent in response to the LOI? 

18 A Correct. 

19 Q And what did you learn from this 

20 letter of response from Mr. Clark? 

21 A Some of their procedures that they 

22 go through. But having been there many times, 

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1 a lot of that is known. He makes note in here 

2 of the flashpoint being -- for part A being 65 

3 degrees, which being under 73 degrees 

4 Fahrenheit should be a packing group two. And 

5 he calls it and he says it's an 

6 inconsistency with the MSDS, which says it's 

7 a packing group three. But he also references 

8 the same thing that a Mr. Julian there at 

9 Unitex stated, that because of the viscosity 

10 and the small amounts, they could by 

11 regulation make it a packing group three. 

12 They also sent coples of the other waybills 

13 and shipper's declarations for the other items 

14 that were shipped that day, such as the fire 

15 extinguisher. And those were all done 

16 correctly. 

17 Q So you indicated that he noted 

18 that the flashpoint was 65 degrees Fahrenheit 

19 and that he said that section 14 of the MSDS 

2 0 contradicts itself by stating that the product 

21 is a packing group three. Earlier you stated 

22 in your testimony that you contacted the 

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1 manufacturer about that. So did this concern 

2 you in any way? 

3 A Initially, yes. When I first got 

4 the MSDS and I contacted they told me 

5 that's why it was a three. And he basically 

6 states the same thing. That it's a -- under 

7 the -- oh, citation of 173121B and 1iiiii --

8 anyway, that it can go. And he talks about 

9 that -- at the end there that the manufacturer 

10 ships the product, but he claims that they 

11 weren't shipping it correctly. That-- it says 

12 they failed to mark the outer packages. And 

13 I went over to Alaska Sand and Gravel and 

14 talked with them and looked at the pallets on 

15 the floor. And when they receive them, they 

16 receive everything by barge -- the containers. 

17 So the pallets and everything that's there is 

18 not an outer packaging. Those are inside a 

19 container. When I was there most of them were 

20 partially broken down. And as long as they're 

21 --if they're shipping by-- you know, there's 

22 the IMDG, the International Maritime Dangerous 

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1 Goods regulations that they have to meet for 

2 a lot of the shipments by sea or surface. 

3 It's different. It's not something I would 

4 profess to be an expert at. And since it was 

5 not shipped by air, it was out of my 

6 jurisdiction. Had the Unitex been a 

7 continuation of the shipment by barge to TGI 

8 Freight, then how it was marked, to me, would 

9 have been appropriate. But seeing as how 

10 there was nothing there. It was already 

11 unloaded and on shelves when I got there. And 

12 the fact that it was purchased from the 

13 storefront to Parsons and then Parsons took 

14 that to TGI Freight, the other stuff was I 

15 did not consider much as being relevant. 

16 Q Okay. 

17 A But it was considered. 

18 Q Okay. You're -- you've just 

19 let me under see if I understand what 

20 you're say1ng. You went over to Alaska Sand 

21 and Gravel . 

22 A Correct. Because that's where 

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1 Parsons purchased it from. 

2 Q Parsons purchased the material. 

3 A Correct. 

4 Q Now, you don't know how Parsons --

5 did you find out how Parsons received the 

6 material? Was that what you went to check 

7 out? 

8 A Well, I went -- well, based upon 

9 what was said here, that the things were being 

10 shipped. Because they were saying they were 

11 relying on information from the manufacturer 

12 as it was shipped to Alaska. And when I went 

13 over there, I made the determination that it 

14 was already delivered at Sand and Gravel, 

15 broken down, then purchased. Because they 

16 didn't buy it a pallet load or -- they just 

17 bought, you know, the individual boxes. 

18 Q They being 

19 A Parsons. 

20 Q Parsons bought individual 

21 A Individual boxes. 

22 Q -- boxes. 

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1 A Right. And then those --

2 Q From --

3 A Right. From Alaska Sand and 

4 Gravel. 

5 Q So Parsons didn't buy an entire 

6 pallet from Alaska Sand and Gravel. 

7 A Not to my knowledge. 

8 Q Okay. So they bought individual 

9 boxes and that's what was brought to TGI 

10 Freight. 

11 A Correct. 

12 Q Four boxes. 

13 A Right. 

14 Q And did you ask any additional 

15 questions of Alaska Sand and Gravel about how 

16 they received shipments? 

17 A Yes. I talked to -- well, I went 

18 and got his card. I had it. I probably 

19 dropped it when I went through security. But 

20 one of their managers there that was at the 

21 plant, I talked to him and asked him how they 

22 received it. And he said everything, because 

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1 of its weight, comes up 1n the containers, 

2 like surface transport by truck that the 

3 container is lifted off and put on a ship and 

4 then put onto another truck for delivery to 

5 them. So he said everything was barged up 

6 from the Lower 48 that they received. 

7 Q So they receive -- Alaska Sand and 

8 Gravel -- shipments of the Pro- Poxy by ground. 

9 A Surface. 

10 Q Surface. Ground. And that 

11 includes 

12 A Water. 

13 Q -- water. 

14 A Correct. 

15 Q And the requirements for ground, 

16 surface including water -- are different 

17 than a1r. 

18 A Right. 

19 Q Did you receive any other 

20 documentation from Alaska Airlines in your 

21 investigation of this matter? 

22 A I was made aware of a -- notes 

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1 they called them in their cargo spot, 1s what 

2 they call it, I think. And that the agent in 

3 Ketchikan had entered after Mr. Peyton (ph) 

4 visited them, you know, and told her that the 

5 stuff was shipped as hazmat and he didn't 

6 understand why it was there. They make notes 

7 of everything. I asked if I could receive a 

8 copy of it. Initially they had to check with, 

9 you know, their legal department to see if it 

10 was something we had to subpoena or not. And 

11 they made the determination I could have it, 

12 so I was emailed that -- the cargo spot notes. 

13 MS. JONES: Okay. This is Exhibit 

14 c- 24. 

15 Q Mr. Deitz, I'm showing you a copy 

16 of Exhibit C- 24 for identification. Do you 

17 recognize this document? 

18 A Yes. That's the cargo spot note 

19 that was sent to me by email. 

20 Q And what does this note say? 

21 A It says that legal said I could 

22 have it the car spot and airway bill note 

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1 --you know, the airway bill number 33719873. 

2 And it said on 2/23 at 1300 p.m., consignee 

3 came to pick up and was advised that it never 

4 left Anchorage due hazmat. He advised that he 

5 left with TGI Freight to ship as hazmat and 

6 paid them to fill out the paperwork. And then 

7 it's the agent's initials in Ketchikan. 

8 MS. JONES: Your Honor, I ask that 

9 Exhibit C-24 be admitted. 

10 MS. HOZUBIN: Same objections as 

11 last time, Your Honor. Hearsay. Foundation. 

12 JUDGE GOODWIN: How did you come 

13 into possession of this, Mr. Deitz? 

14 A Well, I 

15 JUDGE GOODWIN: Is this an email 

16 that was sent to you? 

17 A This is an email sent to me by Mr. 

18 Mike Tobin, who 1s --

19 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 

20 A head of their regulatory 

21 department in Seattle . 

22 JUDGE GOODWIN : Yeah. I'll let 

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1 you enter it, but it goes to weight. You 

2 received it, but you're right. There's no 

3 foundation so it certainly goes to weight. 

4 (Complainant's exhibit C-24 

5 admitted) 

6 Q Mr. Deitz, did you have an 

7 opportunity to speak with Jose Gaytan about 

8 this case? 

9 A I did. 

10 Q Can you tell me about your 

11 conversation with Mr. Gaytan? What did you 

12 discuss with him in your --

13 A Well, I discussed with him the 

14 procedures that he went through to take this 

15 to TGI Freight. And he said that -- much as 

16 what he had said earlier -- is that he had 

17 they segregated it. He took it down to Dexter 

18 as a with these other hazmat items to be 

19 shipped on TGI Freight. 

20 JUDGE GOODWIN: It's always my 

21 favorite question in cross examination to a 

22 young, new officer fresh out of the academy. 

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1 Officer, did you discuss your testimony with 

2 your partner? And there's this deer in the 

3 headlights look. I did that to a Maryland 

4 state policeman once. I thought his partner 

5 was going to fall off his chair laughing. 

6 Q Did Mr. Gaytan give you a 

7 statement? 

8 A I asked for one. He was getting 

9 ready to leave on another job when I -- so he 

10 was 1n a rush. And he emailed it afterwards. 

11 MS. JONES: Exhibit C-25. 

12 Q Mr. Deitz, I'm showing you Exhibit 

13 C-25 marked for identification. Do you 

14 recognize this? 

15 A Uh-huh. (Affirmative) 

16 Q And what is this document C-25? 

17 A Well, it's the statement that Jose 

18 Gaytan emailed. 

19 Q Emailed 

20 A To me, yeah, per the request. 

21 MS. JONES: Your Honor, I ask that 

22 complainant's Exhibit C-25 be admitted. 

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1 MS. JONES: Hearsay and 

2 foundation. Mr. Gaytan already testified. It 

3 could have been brought 1n through him. 

4 JUDGE GOODWIN: The better 

5 testimony 1s the line of testimony of the 

6 witness, which we've already heard. I'll 

7 receive the testimony of the witness as to how 

8 this becomes a part of the chronology, but the 

9 statement of Jose the witness was here and 

10 available 

11 A Right. 

12 MS. JONES: Right. 

13 JUDGE GOODWIN: to testify --

14 and he testified. So I'll sustain the 

15 objection. But the testimony of this current 

16 witness as to the -- how this is a part of the 

17 chronology, is certainly good testimony. 

18 Q So you spoke with Mr. Gaytan and 

19 learned from him that they had hazmat 

20 hazardous materials items that needed to be 

21 shipped. And that they -- Parsons via he 

22 took the hazardous materials to where? 

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1 A Down to the FAA shipping person, 

2 which was Dexheimer. 

3 Q And did he tell you what happened 

4 after that? 

5 A Well, I did go down and I spoke 

6 with Mr. Dexheimer. And he said the stuff --

7 the -- all the items were presented to him. 

8 And when it came to the Pro-Poxy, he tried to 

9 find something in 49, but he didn't find, you 

10 know, epoxy or Pro-Poxy or something listed as 

11 a proper shipping name. But he still felt 

12 that it was hazardous and that's why he then 

13 took it over to TGI Freight. 

14 Q And did they tell you anything 

15 after that? What happened from their 

16 knowledge? Did you learn anything more from 

17 them your discussions with either Mr. 

18 Gaytan or Mr. Dexheimer? 

19 A In regard well, before or 

20 after? 

21 Q To the case. 

22 A I mean 

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1 Q From your discussions with them. 

2 You just testified that you spoke with them 

3 about the case. Did you learn anything new or 

4 

5 A Well, speaking with them about how 

6 they took it and shipped it. They also -- I 

7 mean it was also mentioned in the fact that --

8 not with how they shipped it, which is what I 

9 was more concerned -- but they did talk about 

10 the fact that they took my initial letter over 

11 to TGI Freight and discussed that. 

12 Q After the fact. 

13 A Right. But what I was primarily 

14 looking for there was how they shipped it and 

15 how it came to be at TGI Freight. And what 

16 was represented to them. 

17 Q When you were speaking with Mr. 

18 Dexheimer, did you take any notes of that 

19 conversation? 

20 A Yes. 

21 MS. JONES: C-26. I'll ask you to 

22 mark it as complainant's Exhibit C-26 for 

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1 identification. 

2 Q Do you recognize this document? 

3 A Uh-huh. Yes. Those are my notes. 

4 Q And those are your notes of your 

5 conversation with Mr. Dexheimer? 

6 A Yes. 

7 Q When Mr. Dexheimer -- did just he 

8 go take the hazardous material over to TGI 

9 Freight or did Mr. Gaytan go with him? 

10 A I don't know if Mr. Gaytan went 

11 with him that time or not. I know he did 

12 later. But at the initial, I don't know. 

13 Q Okay. From reviewing your notes, 

14 do you recollect what Mr. Dexheimer indicated 

15 happened when they went over to you? 

16 A Well, he took it over and, 

17 according to him, identified it as possible 

18 hazardous materials. And asked them to handle 

19 it and they said they would handle it. That's 

20 pretty much it. Or take care of it, I think 

21 is his words . 

22 Q In your notes you indicated that 

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1 they spoke with Jeff Jueneman at TGI Freight. 

2 A Well, that's who it would have 

3 been. He said it was just the person 

4 receiving the freight at the door. The person 

5 that they always take it to. And the person 

6 that's-- every time I've been there, the one 

7 that works down there all the time, unless 

8 he's on vacation, would be Jeff. 

9 Q Okay. And it looks like in your 

10 note it says they took to TGI. Said they 

11 might have more hazmat. To check it out. And 

12 you said TGI -- can you read what this is? 

13 I'm not sure I see it. 

14 A Which portion? 

15 Q The part with the you have 

16 there -- right after 

17 A Have more hazmat. You to check it 

18 out, yeah. 

19 Q And right after that? 

20 A TGI Freight. And they said that 

21 they would check it out . 

22 Q It --

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1 A So what he was referring to when 

2 he took it over there is -- was -- you know, 

3 there was the Cadweld shots, the fire 

4 extinguisher. Things that they knew were 

5 definitely hazmat. And when he was talking 

6 about more hazmat, then that. That's what he 

7 was referring to, was the Pro-Poxy. That's 

8 why he said -- he didn't say -- to me he 

9 didn't say that he had told them that 

10 everything was hazmat. He said might have 

11 more hazmat -- this stuff. 

12 Q This stuff being the --

13 A The Pro-Poxy. 

14 Q the Pro-Poxy? 

15 A Right. 

16 Q And so they're referring to that 

17 this Pro-Poxy might be hazmat and that TGI 

18 Freight should check out this --

19 A Yes. 

20 Q -- Pro-Poxy. 

21 A Right. 

22 Q And that TGI Freight then 

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responded that they --

A That they would. 

Q -- would check out 

A Right. 

Q -- the Pro-Poxy. And that's what 

your understanding was from those. 

A Yes. 

MS. JONES: Okay. Complainant 

asks that Exhibit C-26 be admitted. 

MS. HOZUBIN: No objection. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: 26 for 

identification is received into evidence as 

Complainant's 26. 

(Complainant's exhibit C-26 

admitted) 

Q Mr. Deitz, are you familiar with 

the concept trigger terms? 

A Yes. 

Q How are you familiar with that 

term terminology? 

A Well, when I used to teach hazmat, 

we referred to -- used the term trigger terms. 

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1 A There's a lot of terms. To me, 

2 epoxy was a trigger term until it was 

3 presented at the informal -- that many MSDSs 

4 with epox1es that weren't regulated were 

5 presented. I was pretty much under the 

6 impression because the only epoxies that I had 

7 dealt with were considered hazardous. Either 

8 the chemical process was either an oxidizing 

9 or a flammable-type process that was, you 

10 know, one of the two parts. That one of them 

11 was regulated. So to me, that was, too. It 

12 might have been to them as well. I know that 

13 the more generic the term -- or it's something 

14 that contains other items like the household 

15 goods or camping gear -- if someone's go1ng 

16 camping-- or hunting gear, there's generally 

17 stoves, fuel for the stoves, lanterns, 

18 matches, things like that. And hunting would 

19 also that would apply. You know, 

20 ammunition generally. So a generic term like 

21 that 1s what most of the airlines look for . 

22 Q If you can -- I think up there 1s 

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1 Exhibit A-14 (sic) that's been admitted into 

2 evidence. I mean C-14. Sorry, not A. It's 

3 in my administrative processes. Go to page 

4 one. 

5 A I don't see C-14 here. 

6 JUDGE GOODWIN : There is no 14. 

7 If there was --

8 MS. JONES: I think they were left 

9 up there, but --

10 JUDGE GOODWIN: I'm sorry. 14 lS 

11 the photographs. 

12 MS. JONES: Yeah. It's a photo. 

13 It's one photo. And I've got like the other 

14 pages. 

15 A But we stopped at --

16 Q Mr. Deitz, it looks like this. 

17 A Oh. It's a label. 

18 Q Yeah. 

19 A Oh, there it is. 

20 Q Do you see it? 

21 A Yeah. Okay. 

22 Q We were speaking of trigger terms. 

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1 Is there any term in that photo that jumps out 

2 at you, that you would consider a trigger 

3 term? 

4 A Well, not all inclusive. But as I 

5 said, before receiving the other MSDSs 

6 epoxy. And it still would be because of a lot 

7 of epoxies are. It would tell me I would need 

8 to get more information. And in the warn1ng 

9 down 1n the bottom. Well, there's that --

10 what do they call it? WINTS (ph)? I can't 

11 even remember what it starts for. Those 

12 international symbols. They do have the key 

13 there, I think, which is not a transport 

14 information, but it is an indication that 

15 there might be something else there. Plus in 

16 the box below that it does say -- it calls 

17 this an adhesive anchor. So adhesives would 

18 be another term. And again not all adhesives 

19 are regulated, but some are. It's a lot like 

20 paints. A lot are and a lot aren't. 

21 Q So the presence of a trigger term 

22 what does that do for someone that spots a 

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1 trigger term? What does that --

2 A If someone recog -- like something 

3 like this, that would be huh, it might be 

4 hazardous. It doesn't say it is, but it might 

5 be. Therefore, most of them would look 

6 further for more information. 

7 Q And where might you look further 

8 for more information? 

9 A Looking at-- I don't -- if on one 

10 of these labels there was -- either contact 

11 the manufacturer or get a material safety data 

12 sheet, 1s what I would do. 

13 MS. JONES: Counsel, Exhibit C-34 

14 through 40. 

15 Q Mr. Deitz, this is complainant's 

16 Exhibit C-34 through 40 that I've marked for 

17 identification. Can you take a look at those? 

18 And Mr. Deitz, we will take them --

19 A Wait a minute. 

20 Q I think it's C-34, pages one 

21 through forty. I misspoke . 

22 A Yes. Okay. All right. Well, the 

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1 first one says not regulated by ground; 

2 however 

3 Q Well, hold on, Mr. Deitz. 

4 A Oh. 

5 Q Let's go ahead a little slower. 

6 First, do you recognize the documents? 

7 A Well, they are material safety 

8 data sheets for various adhesives or epoxies. 

9 Q And how do you recognize these 

10 documents? 

11 A I believe these are ones I went 

12 online and pulled in response to the others. 

13 We received a number of MSDSs with epoxies 

14 that were not regulated. And so what I did 

15 was I just went online and just pulled a 

16 number aga1n not all inclusive of 

17 epoxies that are. 

18 Q So these are MSDSs for epoxies 

19 that are regulated. 

20 A Yes. 

21 Q Examples of epoxies that are 

22 regulated. 

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1 A Right. 

2 Q And you obtained them yourself? 

3 A From the internet, yes. 

4 Q Okay. Looking at page one, that's 

5 MSDS for what product? 

6 A Just a second. It says it's 

7 Loctite marine epoxy res1n. 

8 Q And do you -- from the MSDS, do 

9 you understand it's a hazmat because you 

10 looked at what part of the MSDS? 

11 A Well, again if you go to the 

12 transportation section, this particular stuff 

13 1s -- it says for transportation by ground is 

14 not regulated; however, for air and water, 

15 it's an environmentally hazardous substance. 

16 Q Okay. And if you turn to page 

17 s1x, what product 1s that? 

18 A Well, the one was the res1n and 

19 this is the hardener for that epoxy -- the 

20 other half of the kit. 

21 Q Okay. 

22 A And this part, poly amines (ph) 

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1 liquid corrosive N.O.S. 

2 Q All right. And again you turned 

3 to the section 14. 

4 A Correct. 

5 Q And that being on page ten. 

6 A Yes. 

7 Q And it indicates 1n this case that 

8 this product is 

9 A That it's a corrosive. 

10 Q That it's a corrosive and it's 

11 needs to be properly marked, labeled, et 

12 cetera, for both ground and air. 

13 A Yes. And water. 

14 Q And water. So turning to page 12, 

15 what product did you pull? 

16 A And this is a Loctite's bonder 

17 epoxy part A. 

18 Q And you noted that it was hazmat. 

19 A Uh-huh. (Affirmative) 

20 Q And that was page 15. 

21 A Yes. 

22 Q And that's section 14 also. 

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1 A Uh-huh. Correct. 

2 Q Under the transport information. 

3 JUDGE GOODWIN: You have to say 

4 yes or no. 

5 A Oh, yes. I'm sorry. 

6 Q Yes? Okay. And what is it' s 

7 proper shipping name? 

8 A Adhesives. 

9 Q And the shipping class? 

10 A Three. 

11 Q And the UN number? 

12 A 1133. 

13 Q And a packing group? 

14 A Two. 

15 Q Any exceptions? 

16 A Yes. It says F. It's a real 

17 small amount, under five liters, it can go as 

18 a consumer commodity -- ground. And IATA 

19 makes the same thing -- that it can go as a 

20 consumer commodity. 

21 Q And this 

22 A But much less, 500 milliliters. 

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1 Half a liter versus five liters. 

2 Q Okay. And the next one you pulled 

3 out of page --

4 A Was the same material, but part V. 

5 Q Part V. And that would be page 

6 17, it looks like. 

7 A Uh-huh. Oops. 

8 Q And you noted this was also 

9 hazardous material. 

10 A Correct. 

11 Q By looking at the transportation 

12 section 

13 A Correct. Just like the part A. 

14 It's an adhesive, but in small amounts can be 

15 shipped as a consumer product. 

16 Q And that is found on page 20 of 

17 the Exhibit? 

18 A Correct. Yes. 

19 Q And the next product is 

20 A Is a one-minute epoxy instant mix. 

21 Q Page 21? 

22 A Is it 20 or is it -- yes, 21. 

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1 Q And you noted that that was hazmat 

2 by looking at section 14 again. 

3 A Yes. 

4 Q And that would be on page 24? 

5 A Yes. 

6 Q Could you also have noted that 

7 these were hazardous materials by looking at 

8 that section five you'd discussed? The 

9 flashpoints? 

10 A The flashpoint is an indicator of 

11 a packing group generally for flammable 

12 liquids. A corrosive, you know, may not have 

13 a flashpoint. So generally where I go first 

14 on a MSDS is just the transport information to 

15 see if anything is there. There may not be. 

16 And then you have to look through the rest of 

17 the document. 

18 Q So if the section 14 tells you the 

19 information, then you're-- you don't need to 

20 look further. 

21 A Correct. Yes . 

22 Q Okay. So you're looking at the 

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1 transportation information on page 24 for the 

2 one-minute epoxy instant mix and noted that it 

3 needed a consumer commodity ORM-D if it was 

4 not more than a liter. Otherwise it needed a 

5 more comprehensive 

6 A Yes. 

7 Q -- shipping information. 

8 A Corrosive liquids, basic, organic, 

9 N.O.S. And a bicyclic amide. 

10 Q Okay. The next one you pulled 

11 out, on page 26 . 

12 A Yes. 

13 Q Was and that product was what? 

14 A The Loctite gel epoxy resin. 

15 Q And you noted that was hazardous 

16 again at section 14 on page 29. 

17 A Correct. Yes. 

18 Q And this one was hazardous if 

19 shipped by a1r, not necessarily by ground; is 

20 that right? 

21 A It says it's not regulated for 

22 ground shipment. 

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1 Q But it is if transported by air. 

2 A Yes. 

3 Q So there is a difference depending 

4 on how something is transported. 

5 A Yes. 

6 Q Whether by ground or by air. 

7 A Yes. 

8 Q Okay. And the next product --

9 A Is the hardener for that gel. 

10 Q Uh-huh. And that's on page 31. 

11 A Yes. 

12 Q And the transport information for 

13 that led you to believe it was hazardous, 

14 correct? 

15 A Yes. 

16 Q And that's on page 34? 

17 A Yes. 

18 Q And so the next product you looked 

19 at was 

20 A West System fast hardener. 

21 Q And that's on page 36? 

22 A Uh-huh. Yes. 

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1 Q And that you determined was 

2 hazardous because of the information in 

3 section 14 again on page 38. 

4 A Thirty-eight, yes. 

5 Q All right. Then I think there was 

6 one more product that you found. 

7 A Yes. 

8 Q And that was what? 

9 A It was an epoxy coat. And on the 

10 notes that I have written in the corner as 

11 part A was not regulated. But part B was as 

12 a class eight. 

13 Q And you determined that was 

14 regulated by looking at what? 

15 A The same section of the MSDS. I 

16 believe in this case, however, this was on the 

17 internet. I could view the MSDS, but I could 

18 not print it out. 

19 Q And that's on exhibit --page 40, 

20 the notes in the corner? 

21 A Yes . 

22 Q Those are your notes? 

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1 A Yes. 

2 Q So in your experience, Mr. Deitz, 

3 a lot of epoxies are hazardous. 

4 A Yes. Not all, as 1s proven. But 

5 it's like paint. Not all paint is hazardous, 

6 but a lot of it 1s. And it -- and paint is a 

7 proper shipping name. 

8 Q So if you see the word epoxy on 

9 something 

10 A To me, it's a red flag. It's a 

11 trigger term, as is adhesives, based on my 

12 experience. 

13 Q And if you saw it, you would 

14 definitely check --

15 A Further, yes. 

16 Q How long does it take to pull up 

17 an MSDS off the internet? 

18 A Varies. 

19 Q How long did it take you? 

20 A For these? It was not long. 

21 Q For Pro-Poxy . 

22 A For the Pro-Poxy -- as I said, I 

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1 typed it ln. Pro-Poxy 400 MSDS and the Google 

2 search and then it popped up. And the very 

3 first thing on the top of the list of 

4 everything that identified was the MSDS. You 

5 just click on it and it's there. It took a 

6 matter of seconds I'd say. And I've had some 

7 that have taken a long time. 

8 Q Mr. Deitz, I believe you have the 

9 MSDS in front of you there. Could you turn to 

10 a --

11 A Oh, the Pro-Poxy one? 

12 Q Yeah. The Pro-Poxy one. 

13 A Okay. Let me pull it out of here. 

14 MS. JONES: While you're doing 

15 that, Your Honor, I ask that Exhibit C-34 be 

16 admitted. 

17 JUDGE GOODWIN: Counsel, did you 

18 want to take a minute to review before? She's 

19 offered 34 for admission. 

20 MS. HOZUBIN: Oh, I'm sorry. I do 

21 have to ask relevance. That would be our 

22 objection. 

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1 A Well, I --

2 JUDGE GOODWIN: Overruled. 

3 A Oh, sorry. 

4 JUDGE GOODWIN: You don't get a 

5 chance to 

6 A I know. I'm sorry. 

7 JUDGE GOODWIN: rule on this. 

8 If you did, I wouldn't have anything to do. 

9 34 for identification is received into 

10 evidence as agency 34. 

11 (Complainant's exhibit C-34 

12 admitted) 

13 Q Have you pulled that out? 

14 A I've got it right here. 

15 Q Okay. Do you know you 

16 indicated that the MSDS isn't a requirement 

17 for transportation. It's not a transportation 

18 requirement for hazardous materials. I 

19 believe you testified that it's not required. 

20 A It 1s an OSHA document. Its 

21 primary purpose is to provide, as was alluded 

22 to before, for the safety of workers who are 

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1 working with the material. 

2 Q So --

3 A Most manufacturers include 

4 transportation information, not all. But on 

5 every MSDS is a phone number to contact the 

6 company or the manufacturer. And so if there 

7 isn't transportation information present in 

8 the MSDS, you can call the manufacturer and 

9 say how do you ship it? You can talk to your 

10 shipping department on how you ship it. You 

11 can talk to the technicians that put the MSDS 

12 together. The chemists and whatnot. And in 

13 this particular case, under part one, 

14 manufacturer, it's Unitex. Their address --

15 you can contact technical services. And 

16 there's a telephone number and a fax number 

17 and an email and a web address. 

18 MS. JONES: Exhibit C-35. 

19 Q I'm handing you what's been marked 

20 as complainant's Exhibit C-35 for 

21 identification. Mr. Deitz, do you recogn1ze 

22 this document? 

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1 A Appendix C of the 21503B. 

2 Q And how are you --

3 A Or the FAA's sanction guidance. 

4 Q And how are you familiar with this 

5 document, Mr. Deitz? 

6 A It's a guideline in preparing the 

7 case. It gives a -- what we use most is the 

8 table which is 1n the back of this, which is 

9 the sanction guidance. 

10 Q Is the agency's policy and 

11 procedure for calculating the civil penal ties 

12 to be assessed in a case? 

13 A Yes. 

14 Q And in calculating those civil 

15 penalties 1n a case, is this something that 

16 you do in your duties and responsibilities as 

17 a security hazmat security agent for the 

18 FAA? 

19 A Yes. 

20 Q What is one of the first steps 

21 that you do 1n assessing a case in general? 

22 A The first, as far as the 

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1 sanctioning is concerned, is to identify where 

2 on the matrix what type of hazardous 

3 material we have. Whether it falls into a 

4 category A, which is really bad stuff, orB, 

5 moderate, or C, minimal. And --

6 Q And that 

7 A that should be on --

8 Q The risk 

9 A The risk. I think it's the last 

10 page here. Risk categories -- C. Well, it's 

11 all C-35, so it would be page 17. 

12 Q So 1n this case, the material 

13 Pro-Poxy 400, where in the risk category does 

14 Pro-Poxy 400 fall? 

15 A Although the flashpoint of -- as 

16 we discussed in there was 65, which could have 

17 been a two. Because they're allowed to ship it 

18 as a three, I put it into category B, moderate 

19 weight of -- so it shows under class three, 

20 packing group three, flammable liquids. 

21 Q And we get that 65 degrees from 

22 the 

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1 A From the MSDS. 

2 Q MSDS, section five, the 

3 flashpoint. 

4 A Correct. From their part A. 

5 Q So it would normally be a category 

6 A? 

7 A If it was packing group two, it 

8 would be category A. Because they're allowed 

9 to ship it as a packing group three, I put it 

10 as a category B, packing group three, 

11 flammable liquid. 

12 Q Okay. So it then becomes a 

13 moderate weight. 

14 A Correct. Yes. 

15 Q Okay. What's the next thing you 

16 look at when you're looking to assess a civil 

17 penalty. Where do we go next? 

18 A Then on page 12, you look at the 

19 offense category. Whether it was a declared 

2 0 shipment, undeclared, undeclared forbidden on 

21 passenger, or then totally forbidden. And I 

22 determined this was an undeclared shipment, 

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1 but it was within quantity limitations for a 

2 passenger aircraft, so it was a II for the 

3 category. 

4 Q Undeclared shipment. And you 

5 determined that from -- what was your basis 

6 for that again? 

7 A There were no markings or labels 

8 on the box as shipped and it was not declared 

9 as a hazardous material when shipped. There 

10 was no shipping papers. 

11 Q Okay. So then what do you look 

12 to? 

13 A Then we go across to -- and look 

14 at A as an individual-- well, it's a company, 

15 so it's not an individual. They are a 

16 business entity. Uses -- and D, that is a 

17 primary portion of their business, not just 

18 other freight. But of repackaging, making 

19 hazmat. They ship a lot of hazmat. All 

20 right. So I put them into the category D, of 

21 a business entity that regularly offers, 

22 accepts or transports hazmat. 

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1 Q So Mr. Deitz, would it be fair to 

2 say that TGI Freight considers themselves to 

3 be an expert 1n the area of shipping hazmat? 

4 MS. HOZUBIN: Objection. 

5 Speculation. Foundation. 

6 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sustained. 

7 Q Okay. So you consider them to be 

8 a business entity that regularly ships hazmat? 

9 A Yes. 

10 Q Okay. So then what's your next 

11 step 1n analyzing it? 

12 A Well, then I've determined that it 

13 is a so in this particular case, the fine 

14 per violation would be $5,000 to $13,000 per 

15 violation or section violation. And I 

16 determined that it was a category B, a 

17 moderate, so I went with the mid-range on that 

18 of $9,000. And then I went through the 

19 categories here that they do. The shipping 

20 papers, marking, packaging, training, 

21 emergency response, and release . And as we 

22 discussed 1n this case, just evaluating 

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1 everything else because we figured -- we look 

2 at all the information that we were given. 

3 And you can maybe play a little bit with that. 

4 I did not cite them for having the emergency 

5 response information. I could have, but I 

6 didn't. So instead of, you know, $36,000, we 

7 went out at $27,000. 

8 Q Now, there's some indication that 

9 if there's only a small amount, whether or not 

10 emergency response information is required or 

11 not . Can you discuss that a little? 

12 A If you're shipping something as a 

13 consumer commodity or a limited quantity or 

14 something like that, those are considered 

15 reclassifications. But you can't reclassify 

16 something if you don't declare it classified 

17 first. If it's an undeclared shipment we go 

18 back to the base product. A common item are 

19 aerosols -- flammable aerosols. If it's an 

20 undeclared, what's in there -- it's a 2.1 gas, 

21 which makes it a category A. If it's a 2.2, 

22 that's actually a C and generally doesn't --

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1 it's a rating case or it's an ORM-D on the 

2 the guidance. So the base product is what is 

3 there. Now, the MSDS or something, you know, 

4 based upon different things in there, if you 

5 can go with a smaller amount and ship it as 

6 less, but you still have to ship it as a 

7 hazmat. You have to declare that it's a 

8 smaller amount and ship it as an ORM-D. And 

9 then if you're shipping it as a consumer 

10 commodity ORM-D air, in this case, then I 

11 believe that it says for most of -- that you 

12 don't need the emergency response telephone 

13 number and stuff. It doesn't have to be 

14 there. But if you don't declare it at all, 

15 then it goes back to being a full-fledged 

16 class three flammable liquid, as is on the 

17 MSDS. 

18 Q So in this case, because the 

19 product was not declared, the emergency 

20 response information was required. 

21 A Yes . 

22 MS. JONES: Your Honor, I'd ask 

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1 that complainant's Exhibit C-35 be admitted. 

2 JUDGE GOODWIN: So the sanction is 

3 guidance? 

4 MS. JONES: Yes, Your Honor. 

5 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. The court 

6 normally takes judicial notice to the sanction 

7 of guidance which was in force at the time of 

8 the violation. So I appreciate the fact that 

9 you've offered a hard copy of it. But I 

10 always go back and make sure that we've got 

11 the right version. So I'll take judicial 

12 notice of it because it's a regulation. 

13 (Complainant's exhibit C-35 

14 admitted) 

15 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. We're going 

16 to take a 15-minute break. So we'll go off 

17 the record. I'm going to instruct the witness 

18 you're still under oath. Please return at 

19 3:15. 

20 (Off record) 

21 JUDGE GOODWIN: I' ll remind the 

22 witness he's under oath. 

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1 Q Mr. Deitz, you were just 

2 testifying before the break concerning the 

3 sanction guidance table and discussing risk 

4 assessment. And it reminded me about a couple 

5 of questions concerning Pro-Poxy itself. What 

6 exactly are the risks of Pro-Poxy in shipping? 

7 MS. HOZUBIN: I'm going to object 

8 to foundation. 

9 JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, I'm not sure 

10 I understand the question. So let's --

11 MS. JONES: Okay. 

12 Q As a hazardous material, we've 

13 assigned it a moderate risk. 

14 A In 

15 Q In the table. You had discussed 

16 the fact that it is assigned a moderate risk. 

17 A Uh-huh. (Affirmative) 

18 Q And --

19 JUDGE GOODWIN: You have to say 

20 yes or no. 

21 A Yes . 

22 Q And as a risk posed to 

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1 transportation of hazardous materials, are you 

2 aware of the type of risk that this flammable 

3 substances poses to transportation? 

4 A Well, as a flammable liquid, they 

5 if there is a fire, you know, any kind of 

6 incident like that on board the aircraft, 

7 flammable liquids can act as an accelerant to 

8 a fire. This particular item, because the 

9 viscosity, it's being thicker, which is why 

10 they allow it go as packing group three versus 

11 a two, it's not if you want to use the term 

12 runny as like if it was more runny, it 

13 would have stayed as a packing group two. 

14 Which means that if anything's damaged it can 

15 leak out and flow and spread out to a fire. 

16 And the risk assessment that they do on the 

17 categories between an A and a B here, whether 

18 it's a packing group one and two versus a 

19 packing group three, generally deals with the 

20 flashpoint. And that's a temperature that it 

21 gives off the gases, will emanate. So three 

22 is less of risk than a two. So that's why they 

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1 put it into that. 

2 Q Okay. 

3 A And I won't say that the people 

4 that designed the people were smarter than me, 

5 but they're at a much higher pay rate than I. 

6 Q Okay. Do you know whether or not 

7 in your investigation, did your investigation 

8 reveal whether or not the Pro-Poxy ever made 

9 it out to the job site? 

10 A Yes. 

11 Q Your investigation did reveal 

12 that? 

13 A Yes. 

14 Q And did it actually make it out to 

15 the job site? 

16 A Yes. 

17 Q How do you know that? 

18 A Well, as a follow-up, while doing 

19 the investigation, I think that 1n talking 

20 with Mr. Gaytan and stuff, that it did get out 

21 there. And since it did get out there and --

22 I had gone back to TGI and was looking for how 

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1 it was shipped -- the other items that they 

2 had. 

3 Q You went out to TGI to find out 

4 how it was shipped. And what did you learn? 

5 A That they shipped it on ACE as a 

6 consumer commodity because of its smaller 

7 amounts that met that criteria. 

8 Q So TGI Freight shipped it as a 

9 consumer commodity? 

10 A Yes. 

11 Q Do you remember on what airline 

12 they shipped it? 

13 A ACE. 

14 Q ACE. 

15 A Alaska Central Express. 

16 MS. JONES: Your Honor, I don't 

17 think I have any more questions of Mr. Deitz 

18 at the moment. 

19 JUDGE GOODWIN: Cross? Just be 

20 mindful that in 65 minutes we're going to go 

21 off the record. So if there's a logical place 

22 that you want to break today and pick up in 

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1 the morning, I want to allow you to do so, 

2 regardless of what the time is. 

3 MS. HOZUBIN: Okay. 

4 CROSS EXAMINATION 

5 BY MS. HOZUBIN: 

6 Q Mr. Deitz, do you still have the 

7 MSDS for the Pro-Poxy 400 in front of you? 

8 Exhibit C 

9 A Yes. 

10 Q -- C-19? 

11 A Yes . It's right here. 

12 Q All right. Earlier you testified 

13 this 1s similar to the one that you pulled --

14 A Yes. 

15 Q -- back in 2010. Let me ask you 

16 you have been critical of TGI because they 

17 didn't pull the MSDS, correct? When they were 

18 trying to determine whether or not the 

19 Pro-Poxy was hazardous? 

20 A I guess critical would be okay 

21 word, yes . 

22 Q Okay. And you agree with me that 

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1 nowhere in the regulations is there a 

2 requirement that a shipper pull an MSDS. 

3 A Yes. 

4 Q All right. And you agree with me 

5 that many MSDSs can have mistakes on them, 

6 correct? 

7 A Many? Not many. 

8 Q Some? 

9 A Maybe some. 

10 Q Okay. 

11 A I don't think I've -- I've heard 

12 that there were mistakes, but I don't believe 

13 I've ever encountered one. 

14 Q And don't manufacturers, on their 

15 MSDSs, specifically represent to anyone 

16 reading the MSDS not to rely on it? 

17 A Offhand, there may be some. 

18 Q Okay. Well, let's take a look at 

19 C-19, at page four, the last page. 

20 A Okay. 

21 Q Section 16, under other 

22 information, it states the information and 

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1 recommendations in this document which is 

2 actually misspelled -- are based on the best 

3 information available to us at the time of 

4 preparation. We make no other warranty, 

5 express or implied, as to its correctness or 

6 completeness or as to the results or reliance 

7 of this product. Isn't that what that says? 

8 A That's what it says. 

9 Q Wouldn't a fair interpretation of 

10 that be don't rely on this? 

11 A No . It looks like a legal 

12 interpretation of that they don't want to be 

13 held liable, is what-- when I read that. And 

14 let's see. And what they're couching is 

15 they're saying this is the best information 

16 that they have at the time. So if there is a 

17 mistake, they do periodically update these. 

18 And then they would correct it. Or if there is 

19 a correction and -- yes. And 

20 Q Don't 

21 A And can I take something back? I 

22 do remember an instance where I did come 

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1 across an MSDS that was wrong. Had the wrong 

2 packing group based upon like where I 

3 questioned this one? Based upon the 

4 flashpoint. And when I contacted them, they 

5 looked at it and said yes. When they typed in, 

6 they made the mistake. 

7 Q Okay. 

8 A They hit an extra strike on the 

9 key. So yes, there was a mistake there. But 

10 it was still the proper shipping 

11 description and UN number were correct on that 

12 one. 

13 Q All right. Back to C-19, it 

14 specifically states we make no other warranty, 

15 expressed or implied, as to its correctness or 

16 completeness. 

17 MS. JONES: Objection. Asked and 

18 answered. 

19 JUDGE GOODWIN: Go ahead. 

20 MS. HOZUBIN: Oh, there was an 

21 objection, Your Honor . 

22 JUDGE GOODWIN: Overruled. 

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1 Q Okay. This specifically states we 

2 make no other warranty, expressed or implied, 

3 as to its correctness or completeness. Isn't 

4 the manufacturer saying that this may not be 

5 correct? 

6 A Again, I think that that's, you 

7 know, the couching legal thing that they have. 

8 But if you use a material safety data sheet 

9 and it turns out that the information that you 

10 used by using this is incorrect -- all right. 

11 Let's say this-- for example, you know, this 

12 is wrong and it's actually a corrosive. But 

13 if you use the MSDS, package it, mark, and 

14 label it accordingly, and it turns out to be 

15 wrong, at that point I would have someone out 

16 of the Seattle office contact FEMSA (ph) 

17 directly and send them to the manufacturer 

18 because they doing it giving out false 

19 information on the stuff. However, if we look 

20 at if someone uses an MSDS, too, then 

21 they're -- what we consider relying on the 

22 best information available from the 

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1 manufacturer that --

2 Q You disagree that the best 

3 information available is the information on 

4 the packaging? 

5 A Packaging comes under a lot of 

6 different regulations, not necessarily 

7 transportation. Okay? I mean there's a 

8 warning on every bucket that I've seen that 

9 says don't put your baby in it. But it has 

10 nothing to do with transportation. Okay? And 

11 I don't know of anybody that ever did it, but 

12 somewhere along the line someone had to. 

13 Otherwise it wouldn't be there. But the 

14 information that's on there comes under a 

15 different set of regulations than 

16 transportation. And I will not say that I'm 

17 an expert on what they are required to put on 

18 consumer products. 

19 Q Okay. Let's talk a little about 

20 transportation then. MSDSs are not 

21 transportation documents, are they? 

22 A No. 

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1 Q They're OSHA documents. 

2 A Right. Correct. 

3 Q And they're not required to have 

4 any transportation information on them, are 

5 they? 

6 A No. 

7 Q Now, also at the end of this MSDS, 

8 the very last sentence above end of MSDS, it 

9 states this product has been classified 

10 according to the hazard criteria of the CPR 

11 and the MSDS contains all of the information 

12 required by the CPR. Did I misread something? 

13 Oh, okay. Now, this document was not prepared 

14 1n accordance with 49 CFR, was it? 

15 JUDGE GOODWIN: You have to say 

16 yes or no. 

17 A No. 

18 Q Let's talk a bit about the other 

19 MSDS that you testified about earlier today in 

20 Exhibit C-34. Do you still have C-34 in front 

21 of you? 

22 A Which one is 34? 

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1 Q It's the really thick packet of 

2 MSDSs. 

3 A Oh, that's all the MSDSs? 

4 Q Yeah. All right. The first one 

5 you discussed was a Loctite marine epoxy 

6 res1n, which 1s page one of forty and spans 

7 five pages. What's the shipping name of this 

8 i tern? 

9 A For air? It's listed as an 

10 environmentally hazardous substance, liquid 

11 NOS, epoxy resin. 

12 Q All right. So this isn't an 

13 adhesive like you would name the epoxy that 

14 we're talking about. 

15 A No. 

16 Q Okay. And this document also has 

17 a similar disclaimer at the very end of it, 

18 correct? 

19 A Well, this particular disclaimer 

20 says it's best information, believed to be 

21 reliable. But they're not responsible if you 

22 don't use it in the manner in which it's 

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1 intended. 

2 Q The disclaimer is similar to the 

3 last one we talked about, correct? 

4 A I'd say it was a little different. 

5 Q Can you tell me, 1n the 

6 transportation information on this particular 

7 MSDS, why is there a difference between ground 

8 and air transportation? 

9 A There's a lot of differences 

10 between ground and air. Air limits -- in your 

11 hazmat table on 101, it limits the size per 

12 package, whereas ground doesn't. Bulk 

13 containers can go by ground, which you 

14 know. There's a lot of differences. You can 

15 look at your consumer commodities where by air 

16 paperwork is required, but by ground it's not. 

17 You can look at-- well, let's take-- a prime 

18 example that we use in Jack's class a lot is 

19 engine starting fluid. Consumer community 

20 ORM-D by ground, forbidden for transport by 

21 passenger aircraft. So there's a difference 

22 right there between the two commodities. If 

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1 you have a problem in the truck, you pull over 

2 to the side of the road. If you have a problem 

3 1n an airplane at 30,000 feet, you're stuck. 

4 Q Back to my earlier question. Why 

5 in this particular MSDS is the information --

6 A Different? 

7 Q different for ground and air? 

8 A Ask the manufacturer. It's the 

9 manufacturer's, like a shipper's 

10 responsibility, to do things correctly. 

11 Q Including marking and labeling 

12 their items? 

13 A Yes. 

14 Q All right. 

15 A And as we've established, it's 

16 different between surface transport and air 

17 transport. 

18 Q The next material safety data 

19 sheet that you've discussed with Ms. Jones is 

20 the hardener for that first epoxy. 

21 A Okay. 

22 Q It begins at page six 

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1 A Six. 

2 Q of forty. Can you tell me 

3 what the shipping name is of this item? 

4 A According to section 14, it's 

5 polyamine -- if I can say that right -- liquid 

6 corrosive NOS. 

7 Q Okay. So again 

8 A And then the technical name. 

9 Q not adhesive. 

10 A No. 

11 Q And aga1n this one contains a 

12 disclaimer on the last page much like the last 

13 one we just looked at. 

14 A Right. It's the same disclaimer. 

15 Q As we go through these, can I ask 

16 have you -- you actually haven't seen any 

17 boxes or containers of these items, have you? 

18 A No. And that' s not the reason 

19 they were pulled. 

20 Q And so as we sit here and talk 

21 about this, we don't know if they're properly 

22 marked and labeled by the manufacturer, do we? 

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1 A It's not in question. 

2 Q Next MSDS is also another Henkel 

3 Technologies MSDS for Loctite plastics bonder 

4 epoxy, at page 12. 

5 A Uh-huh. (Affirmative) 

6 Q Now, on this, under the transport 

7 information, it states that at least for 

8 ground transportation there are exceptions for 

9 consumer commodity ORM-D not more than five 

10 liters. That's incorrect, isn't it? Do you 

11 know? 

12 A No. 

13 Q And the next MSDS, that's part B 

14 of the same epoxy; is that correct? 

15 A Uh-huh. (Affirmative) 

16 Q Oh. Was that yes, for the record? 

17 A Pardon? 

18 Q We need yeses or nos. 

19 A I said no. 

20 Q Oh, okay. 

21 A I'm sorry . 

22 Q Oh, this is not --

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1 A I'm 

2 Q part B? 

3 A I think that was for a previous 

4 question. I don't remember now. 

5 Q All right. So --

6 A But 

7 Q this next one that we're 

8 looking at, that begins at page 17, Loctite 

9 plastics bonder epoxy part B --

10 A Correct. 

11 Q -- that would be the --

12 A Correct. Yes. 

13 Q hardener for the previous 

14 epoxy we just spoke of. 

15 A Uh-huh. Yes. 

16 Q All right. And in the 

17 transportation let's see information 

18 that begins on page 19 and carries on to page 

19 20, do you agree with me that under 

20 transportation ground 49 CFR exceptions 

21 consumer commodity ORM-D not more than five 

22 liters 1s incorrect? 

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1 A I'm 

2 Q part B? 

3 A I think that was for a previous 

4 question. I don't remember now. 

5 Q All right. So --

6 A But 

7 Q this next one that we're 

8 looking at, that begins at page 17, Loctite 

9 plastics bonder epoxy part B --

10 A Correct. 

11 Q -- that would be the --

12 A Correct. Yes. 

13 Q hardener for the previous 

14 epoxy we just spoke of. 

15 A Uh-huh. Yes. 

16 Q All right. And in the 

17 transportation let's see information 

18 that begins on page 19 and carries on to page 

19 2 01 do you agree with me that under 

20 transportation ground 49 CFR exceptions 

21 consumer commodity ORM-D not more than five 

22 liters 1s incorrect? 

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1 A No. 

2 Q Do you know if it's incorrect? 

3 A No. 

4 Q And again we have yet another 

5 disclaimer at the bottom of the MSDS. 

6 A Right. 

7 Q Page 21 

8 A Uh-huh. Yes. 

9 Q which is the next Henkel 

10 Corporation MSDS for Loctite one-minute epoxy 

11 instant m1x. Let's take a look at the 

12 transportation information on this one, which 

13 is at page 24 of 40. 

14 A Yes. I'm there. 

15 Q All right. Again under domestic 

16 ground transport, it states consumer commodity 

17 ORM-D not more than one liter. And then 

18 further on down it skips to class A, packing 

19 group three, more than four liters. Do you 

20 agree with me that that's an inconsistency? 

21 We're missing information for between one and 

22 four liters? 

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1 A Offhand, I would say it appears 

2 such. 

3 Q But you don't know? 

4 A Stuff's not being shipped by air. 

5 These weren't pulled for an investigation. 

6 Q All right. Let's look at the next 

7 MSDS. It looks like a lot of these are Henkel 

8 Corporation MSDSs. You were the one that 

9 pulled these? 

10 A Yes. 

11 Q Is there a particular reason you 

12 went with Henkel? 

13 A No. I think I just went in with 

14 epox1es MSDS for a search and those were the 

15 first ones that came up. I could have spent 

16 more time and pulled more manufacturers, I'm 

17 sure, but I have a lot of things to do. 

18 Q All right. This one is for 

19 it's page 26 of 40 of Exhibit C-34, product 

20 name Loctite gel epoxy-resin. Can you tell me 

21 what the proper shipping name is of this item? 

22 A For ground, not regulated. And 

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1 then it's an environmentally hazardous 

2 substance. 

3 Q Okay. 

4 A Liquid NOS. 

5 Q Again not adhesive. 

6 A Correct. 

7 Q All right. And --

8 A Yes. 

9 Q again there's another 

10 disclaimer on this one as well? Much like the 

11 other ones we were looking at? 

12 A Yes. 

13 Q All right. The next MSDS begins 

14 at page 31 of 40. Again a Henkel product, 

15 Loctite gel epoxy. This is the hardener for 

16 the previous MSDS. 

17 A Uh-huh. (Affirmative) 

18 Q Is that correct? 

19 A Correct. Yes. 

20 Q All right. And what's the proper 

21 shipping name for this one? 

22 A It is amines liquid corrosive NOS. 

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1 Q Once more not an adhesive? 

2 A Yes. 

3 Q Once more contains a disclaimer 

4 much like all the others? 

5 A Yes. 

6 Q Next MSDS is West System, Inc. for 

7 205 fast hardener. Can you tell me what the 

8 proper shipping name is for this item? 

9 A Poly amines liquid corrosive NOS. 

10 Q Okay. Once more we're not talking 

11 about an adhesive, correct? 

12 A Correct. 

13 Q And let's take a look at the 

14 disclaimer on the last page of this one, on 

15 page 39 of 40. This is very similar to the 

16 one for Pro-Poxy 400, isn't it? It states 

17 this information is furnished without 

18 warranty, expressed or-implied, except that it 

19 is accurate to the best knowledge of West 

20 System, Inc. The data on this sheet 1s 

21 related only to the specific material 

22 designated here. West System, Inc. assumes no 

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1 legal responsibility for use or reliance upon 

2 these data, correct? 

3 A Yes. That's what it says. 

4 Q Do you still have Exhibit C-26 in 

5 front of you, which are your notes? 

6 A Yes. 

7 Q If I could just find my notes on 

8 it, we'll be all set. This document is 

9 undated. Do you recall the date you took 

10 these notes? 

11 A On these particular notes right 

12 now? No. I'm -- normally notes like this 

13 lead to something being typed up. But --

14 Q What do you mean by tightened up? 

15 A In other words, I woVld go back to 

16 the office and type up a record --

17 Q Oh, typed up. 

18 A of interview. 

19 Q I'm sorry. I thought you said 

20 tightened up. 

21 A Oh, I'm sorry. Typed up. 

22 Q Okay. Who's Chad Wilts (ph)? 

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1 A All right. There was a line. I 

2 started out I called it Parsons and stuff 

3 -- to talk to them about the shipping. In 

4 other words, he was the one that put me in 

5 touch with Dexter. So that's really not part 

6 of this. And that was the phone number with 

7 Parsons. 

8 Q Okay. I was thinking for a minute 

9 it was the Chad Wilts who works downstairs 

10 here. 

11 A No. It was -- yeah. It was --

12 these -- the paper from where I went -- yeah. 

13 Q All right. Now, it states that --

14 underneath the line there's a phone number 

15 that says 271- 2907. Do you know whose phone 

16 number that is? 

17 A I believe that 1s Dexheimer's. 

18 Q Okay. So Mr. Dexheimer's phone 

19 number? 

20 A Uh-huh. (Affirmative) 

21 Q All right. And underneath his 

22 name and forgive me if I mis-speak. This 

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1 document's not a great document. Looked 49 

2 CFR. Couldn't find. 

3 A Right. 

4 Q What --

5 A He looked into 49 CFR to see if he 

6 could find Pro-Poxy 400. Could not find it as 

7 a proper shipping name. Okay? An epoxy is 

8 not a proper shipping name. The proper 

9 shipping name for epoxies would be adhesives. 

10 All right. Now, I don't take shorthand. I'm 

11 not a stenographer. But when someone' s talking 

12 and you're talking to them. And you're going 

13 to make a document later on, I take notes as 

14 best I can. It's kind of an abbreviated 

15 shorthand. 

16 Q Now, you said the proper shipping 

17 name for epoxies is adhesive. But we just 

18 went through a whole bunch of epoxies 

19 A Well, on this particular one. 

20 Q Okay. So there 

21 A All right? 

22 Q there could be any number of 

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1 shop 

2 A Again --

3 Q -- shipping names. 

4 A Again these were pulled not 

5 because they were adhesives. But because as 

6 you had said to us earlier, that epoxies 1s 

7 not a proper shipping name. Not all epoxies 

8 are hazardous, which is true. But a lot of 

9 epoxies are. And that's the only reason these 

10 were pulled. So no further investigation was 

11 done on any of these products, other than the 

12 fact that the MSDS says that they are 

13 regulated. And the MSDSs produced by the 

14 manufacturer of those products. 

15 Q Could you read for me what the 

16 very bottom of the notes say? 

17 A It's hard. Let me see. It looks 

18 like freight procedures for job and store in 

19 warehouse. It looks like there was a date 

20 there, when it was -- it looks like what it 

21 was referring to is that their procedures were 

22 they were purchased the freight 

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1 purchased for job and stored in warehouse --

2 the FAA's warehouse. In other words, that was 

3 where he was talking about that the item was 

4 purchased -- the Pro- Poxy from Alaska Sand 

5 and Gravel, stored 1n their warehouse until 

6 such time as they needed some, and then it was 

7 pulled to be shipped. 

8 Q Okay. Let me have you take a look 

9 at Exhibit C-22, TGI Freight's --

10 A Okay. The first letter? 

11 Q -- letter. 

12 A Okay. 

13 Q All right. And is this the letter 

14 you received from Mr. Clark? 

15 A Yes. 

16 Q All right. The earlier you 

17 testified that when Mr. Clark sent you this 

18 letter, this letter stated that he was going 

19 to take full responsibility for the shipment. 

20 Where in this letter does it say that? 

21 A All right. I wasn't reading it 

22 when I said that. It just says he represents 

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1 that their corporation is a dangerous goods 

2 agent for their shipments and requests that 

3 all correspondence go to him. Now, I think it 

4 was implied more than said. 

5 Q But not actually said. All right. 

6 Earlier you were also testifying about how the 

7 epoxy got to Alaska Sand and Gravel. And 

8 Alaska Sand and Gravel represented to you that 

9 it came 1n by barge, correct? 

10 A Correct. 

11 Q All right. And you never had any 

12 discussions with the manufacturer of how it 

13 got from the manufacturer to the barge, did 

14 you? 

15 A No. 

16 Q Okay. And when you were at Alaska 

17 Sand and Gravel, did you have them provide you 

18 with a copy of the original bill of lading? 

19 A No. 

20 Q Did you have them provide you with 

21 a copy of the delivery receipt? 

22 A No. 

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1 Q Did you ask to see either one of 

2 them? 

3 A No. 

4 Q Can I have you take a look at 

5 Exhibit C-3, please? Which is the Alaska Air 

6 Cargo airway bill 402733719873. I think 

7 earlier you testified that the typed up --

8 this matches Exhibit C-2, which is the 

9 handwritten one that gets filled out, and then 

10 Alaska Airlines types 1n the information and 

11 prints out this one. 

12 A Yes. 

13 Q Okay. So this -- the typed out 

14 one, C-3, is the one that actually gets 

15 shipped with the materials, correct? 

16 A Or electronically sent to the 

17 other station, yes. 

18 Q Okay. Or electronically sent. 

19 All right. And on C-3, specifically directly 

20 above the signature line, which states Alaska 

21 Airlines, there are two boxes. One states 

22 this shipment does not contain dangerous goods 

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1 and the other states this shipment does 

2 contain dangerous goods. Neither are checked, 

3 are they? 

4 A On this particular one, no. And 

5 why I can't tell you? Because I've seen their 

6 procedures. And on the screen there's a place 

7 where a person signs and checks on a little 

8 screen. 

9 Q But this was the one that Alaska 

10 Airlines provided you, isn't it? 

11 A It looks like it, yes. 

12 Q Okay. And there's no signature on 

13 this document, is there? 

14 A There generally is not. Sometimes 

15 I think I might have seen some with 

16 electronic signature. I can't say for certain 

17 at the moment. But the worksheet is signed 

18 and it says no hazmat on it. 

19 Q C -- let me have you take a look 

20 at C-8, which 1s the hazardous materials 

21 incident report. I believe you testified it 

22 was from Alaska Airlines. Can you tell me 

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1 where in the regulations this report 1s 

2 required? 

3 A It's required for under the 

4 reporting for generally spills or when there 

5 1s a diversion of an aircraft or something 

6 more major. However, it is Alaska Airlines' 

7 company policy that one be done for all 

8 undeclared shipments as well. 

9 Q I think --

10 A The original intent for the form 

11 is to go to FEMSA and -- like some of the 

12 blocks back here are really concerned with UN 

13 packaging. And what they really want to know 

14 is if UN packaging fails and someone was hurt 

15 and things like this. But Alaska Airlines 

16 does it even when it's not required. 

17 MS. HOZUBIN: Your Honor, move to 

18 strike the response as non-responsive. Mr. 

19 Deitz is not an Alaska Airlines employee and 

20 can't speak to their intentions. 

21 JUDGE GOODWIN: Overruled. You 

22 asked the question. 

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1 Q The -- page -- on the first page, 

2 under number 18, can you tell me what packing 

3 group is listed? 

4 A They did not put a packing group 

5 ln. 

6 Q Oh. And back to my earlier 

7 question. My question was where ln the 

8 regulations is this report required? Can you 

9 tell me what regulation --

10 A Off the top of my head, under --

11 there lS a section under reporting. Under 49. 

12 But I can't glve you the chapter and verse. 

13 Q All right. And on the second page 

14 of this document, at paragraph 26B, can you 

15 tell me the packaging type that's listed for 

16 this? 

17 A 4G, fiberboard box. 

18 Q That's incorrect, isn't it? 

19 A No. The white boxes were 

20 fiberboard boxes. They're not saying the 

21 tubes. They're going with the outer box that 

22 they have there. Now, I've never filled one 

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1 of these out. I know they're electronically 

2 filled out, so most of it's drop down menus. 

3 Q Do you still have the picture 1n 

4 front of you for C-9? Exhibit C-9 -- excuse 

5 me. 

6 A Let me see. Exhibit C-9. 

7 Q It looks like this one. 

8 A Well, I'm sure -- oh, there it is. 

9 Got to them. 

10 Q Can you clarify for me. Earlier 

11 you testified that this was the entire 

12 shipment that was sent over by TGI to Alaska 

13 Airlines that you 

14 A The entire shipment on that airway 

15 bill. 

16 Q On that airway bill. Okay. So 

17 this was not the actual entire shipment? 

18 A The other items were on different 

19 a1rway bills, which makes them different 

20 shipments. 

21 Q Now, you state on here that you 

22 took the photo on February 19th, 2010 at 1200 

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1 hours. 

2 A Yes. 

3 Q Does your camera have a date and 

4 time function? 

5 A It does. 

6 Q Is there a reason the date and 

7 time aren't appearing on these photos? 

8 A It doesn't print out. It's not 

9 always it does have it. 

10 Q And I --

11 A I'm not sure. 

12 Q I ask --

13 A Now, when I 

14 Q I'm sorry. 

15 A I've seen date and time on when 

16 I've checked pictures in -- going through in 

17 the camera. But when you copy and paste the 

18 photograph from the camera to a document, it 

19 does not print out. 

20 Q I ask because on Exhibit C-9 

21 through C-12, you have each of these 

22 photographs was taken on February 19, 2010 at 

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1 exactly 1200 hours. Now, either you're very 

2 fast 

3 A Well, 1200 hours is when I 

4 okay. What I do when I go there and 

5 perhaps I should have used the word 

6 approximately and maybe I will from now on. 

7 All right. When I go there, I sit down with 

8 -- or I sit down my phone, which has got the 

9 best time available. Better than a watch 

10 because it's, you know, li~ked. And so I 

11 write the date down when I'm there. And I 

12 open up the phone. And when I'm taking the 

13 pictures, I write the time down. 

14 Q Okay. So it's approximately time, 

15 not exactly the specific time that you 

16 actually took those photos. 

17 A Yes. 

18 Q Okay. Now, with respect to your 

19 training history, do you still have that in 

20 front of you? C-30? 

21 A Yep. 

22 Q In reviewing this, I noticed that 

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1 you hadn't had any formal training since 2007; 

2 is that accurate? 

3 A Yes. 

4 Q Okay. And I had a question about 

5 

6 A We've had we have had 

7 conferences where we've gone to. But there's 

8 been -- there was one where the entire nation 

9 -- all the hazmat people went to Florida. And 

10 then there was a couple where just us -- we 

11 went down to Seattle. And we probably would 

12 have done that this -- we were scheduled to do 

13 that again this year. They were -- the hazmat 

14 conference where you get there and just do it 

15 1n person. However, with the GSA debacle, 

16 funds were pulled for travel. 

17 JUDGE GOODWIN: Oh. You were a 

18 victim of that? The other thing, counsel, to 

19 save you some time. The FAA has been strapped 

20 for training funds for years. And it's 

21 well, I won't don't get me started, but 

22 1n addition to what he said, the whole 

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1 department went through it. We had to justify 

2 any training trips over X number of days. And 

3 I forget what it was. Because we filed a 

4 report only to find out that the number of 

5 days that we had was so small that they 

6 weren't looking. It was a congressional 

7 inquiry. So the stuff hit the fan about two 

8 weeks after the GSA debacle. And Congress 

9 started asking questions. So you'll find you 

10 do any government work, that every government 

11 agency is going to give you the same answer. 

12 It's-- well, what's interesting is Vegas has 

13 the best rates, but heaven forbid you go 

14 there. 

15 MS. HOZUBIN: Well, the ninth 

16 circuit did get slammed for going to Hawaii, 

17 so --

18 JUDGE GOODWIN : But they went, 

19 didn't they? 

20 Q All right. So back to your 

21 training. The training that's listed on this 

22 document, which is Exhibit C-30, most of the 

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1 training that you did here was on what you 

2 refer to as IVTs, which are the interactive 

3 A Correct. Video training. 

4 Q -- video -- okay -- training. So 

5 that's something you wouldn't need to travel 

6 for. You just go and hook up to a computer 

7 somewhere and --

8 A Except that they do send the 

9 instructors to Oklahoma City where the studio 

10 lS that they film and transmit it. 

11 Q Okay. But it's a lot cheaper than 

12 sending everybody to Florida or 

13 A Yes. 

14 Q Yeah. Okay. Now, walk me through 

15 this history a little bit. The first column 

16 states item ID. Is that the name of the course 

17 or the name of the event that you're doing? 

18 A Well, that would be the course ID 

19 number. 

20 Q Okay. 

21 A And then the title would be what 

22 the course was. 

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1 Q All right. And there's a date on 

2 the first column. For example, the first 

3 entry here says course FAA 30200432. 

4 A Revised. 

5 Q Revised. 

6 A As of that date. 

7 Q I'm sorry? 

8 A Well, it says REV, is for a 

9 revision date. 

10 Q Is it revision date or rev1ew 

11 date? 

12 A Well, I don't -- I'm not sure. 

13 Q Okay. And it's got 12/7/10, 3:14 

14 p.m. eastern standard time. 

15 A It must have been reviewed because 

16 looking at the deal -- well, the completion 

17 date and then when it would have been 

18 reviewed, which 1s the date after. 

19 Q Okay. So then the next the next 

20 column is for title. And the next column says 

21 scheduled offering ID. And then finally we 

22 have the completion date that you just 

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1 mentioned, which on that states it would have 

2 been December lOth, 2010 at 6:33p.m. eastern 

3 time; is that correct? 

4 A That's what it says. 

5 Q All right. Now, let me have you 

6 take a look at page 507 of this document, 

7 please. 

8 A Okay. 

9 Q With respect to -- let's see --

10 I'm looking at one, two, three, four -- fifth 

11 entry down states course FAA 57200 REV 

12 10/24/2003, 12:00a.m. easterntime. Andit's 

13 titled Air Transportation of Hazardous 

14 Materials Recurrent. And then it has for the 

15 completion date --

16 A Incomplete. But if you see the 

17 same course listed right below it --

18 Q Well, I'm actually looking at the 

19 course right below it. Sorry. I'm looking at 

20 the one that's entitled the-- yes. The one 

21 right below it is the one I'm looking at --

22 the August 12th, 2004. It states 12:00 p.m. 

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1 eastern time as the completion date. So if it 

2 was reviewed --

3 A Well, I don't know what --

4 Q I'm confused. Because --

5 A I -- okay. I'll be honest with 

6 you. I printed it out. I don't write the 

7 software. I don't review it. I don't revise 

8 it. I don't do any of that. I take it. Send 

9 in the course. We get notified that we're 

10 having it. And they generally offer the 

11 course at two different times or two different 

12 days a lot of times. You know, one for 

13 generally the east coast. One for the west 

14 coast. And then we get it set up. We go to 

15 one of the classrooms downstairs. And they 

16 have little boxes where we sign in with our 

17 Social Security number and stuff like that. 

18 And we can flag it. We can ask questions. 

19 They can ask us questions. So with a live 

20 video feed. And that's what it is. That's why 

21 it's called interactive video training . 

22 Q All right. 

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1 A Now, I cannot tell you what the 

2 other stuff lS. I can tell you what the course 

3 lS and that I passed it. That's pretty much 

4 it. And the rest of the stuff is used by 

5 other people. And for what, I don't know. 

6 Q So you can't testify as to what 

7 time you took any of these courses, how long 

8 they took, when they ended, that sort of 

9 thing? 

10 A The IVTs are generally three 

11 hours . 

12 Q But with this document, we 

13 shouldn't believe that you started it at 8:00 

14 p.m. Alaska time and finished it at 8:00a.m. 

15 Alaska time, correct? 

16 A I wouldn't. 

17 Q Okay. Also, earlier you were 

18 testifying about your investigation into this 

19 matter. And a lot of what you testified, you 

20 said you would have gotten an email. You 

21 would have done this. Generally you go into 

22 the office. You don't have a specific 

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1 recollection of this investigation, do you? 

2 A Well, I can definitely say once I 

3 was g1 ven a copy of the email, that that's how 

4 I was notified on this one. 

5 Q Okay. But you don't 

6 A And 90 percent or 90-some percent 

7 of the time, that's how we get it. I have a 

8 case that's pending where I was at Alaska 

9 Airlines looking at one and UPS dropped off a 

10 package. And they X-rayed it and lo and 

11 behold, they found some others. So I never 

12 got an email on that one because I was present 

13 and they brought it to my attention. There 

14 have been some where my actual notification 

15 was a telephone call. Especially if something 

16 happened over the weekend, I get a call on my 

17 cell phone-- hey, we've got this. And then 

18 they'll generally send a follow-up email with 

19 the notification. 

20 Q Well, let's back up a bit. Do you 

21 have a specific recollection, as you sit here 

22 now, of receiving that email? 

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1 A Well, I can state I received it 

2 and that's what I acted upon. To say a 

3 specific recollection two years ago that I was 

4 eating a Snickers bar, drinking coffee, and at 

5 10:30 a.m. this email came in, no. Because 

6 generally what happens is a lot of times the 

7 emails -- I don't know what I'd have to 

8 look again at what time of day it was shipped. 

9 We may not get the email till the following 

10 day. If it happens in the morning we-- we'll 

11 get it right away that afternoon and we may 

12 not look at it till the next day. 

13 Q Okay. So it's fair to say that 

14 your recollection of events of your 

15 investigation are based on the documents and 

16 your report and not what you specifically 

17 recall from your memory; is that correct? 

18 A Yes. 

19 Q Okay. 

20 MS. HOZUBIN: Your Honor, I'm 

21 about to go into a whole other thing that's 

22 going to take longer than the remaining 24 

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1 minutes. So if --

2 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 

3 MS. HOZUBIN: -- we want to break 

4 for today 

5 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yeah. What's your 

6 sense on how long your case is going to take 

7 tomorrow? And I won't hold you to it. 

8 A All day. 

9 MS. HOZUBIN: I figure I probably 

10 have about an hour left with Mr. Deitz. 

11 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 

12 MS. HOZUBIN: And then our case 1n 

13 total will probably just take a few hours. 

14 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Then I'll 

15 just go ahead and-- I've got an 8:00 o'clock 

16 flight. What I'm trying to decide is whether 

17 to bump the flight to Saturday. But this 

18 gentleman to my right and I both have to be in 

19 Juneau on Monday, so -- and he just informed 

20 we can't drive there, so --

21 MS. JONES: No . 

22 MS. HOZUBIN: No. No. You can't. 

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1 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 

2 MS. HOZUBIN: Ms. Jones, do you 

3 have any more witnesses after Mr. Deitz? 

4 JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, I don't want 

5 to -- what I -- in terms of what you told me, 

6 even without talking to Ms. Jones, you know, 

7 we're good until 4:30 tomorrow, so 

8 MS. HOZUBIN: Okay. I think we 

9 can have it done. 

10 A 4:30? 

11 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 

12 MS. HOZUBIN: Yeah. 

13 JUDGE GOODWIN: 4:30 tomorrow 

14 afternoon, so -- why? Do you have a --

15 A Oh, no. No. No. When you said 

16 4: 3 0 

17 JUDGE GOODWIN: -- do you have a 

18 flight to Juneau tomorrow? 

19 A -- does that mean we're meeting 

20 here at 4:30 in the morning? You know 

21 MS. JONES: No. No. No . 

22 JUDGE GOODWIN: No. That's what 

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1 time the plane's leave here. 

2 MS. JONES: I'm not. I'm not. 

3 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. What we're 

4 going to do is we're going to go off the 

5 record. Any witness -- potential witness and 

6 the current witness is instructed not to 

7 discuss your testimony with anybody prior to 

8 the conclusion of the hearing. All right. 

9 We'll go off the record. 

10 (Whereupon, the proceedings went 

11 off the record to continue the next day.) 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

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• ~- ------ ~------ ----- ----~ 

A ·-···--

abbreviated 193: 14 

able 11:13 23:5,5 

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accelerant 171:7 

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accepted 8: 1 7 

33:21 123:2 

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accommodate 5: 1 

accomplishments 

19:20 

account 24:22 

accurate 20:3 

107:19 190:19 

204:2 

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36:19,19 37:1,5 

59:1,13,15 173:5 

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actuated 26:9 

29:14,18 30:8 

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administrative agree 174:22 175:4 airplane 183:3 

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73:20 74:6 79:19 16:2 23:8,10 AK 1:13 

80:7,9 94:18 29:21 30:2 32:6 Alaska 2:6,10,22 

95:12,17 96:12 34:11,15 49:6,20 7:4 9:22 10:9 

98:19 99:6 104:6 50:4 51:13,14 15:16 16:10,12 

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• Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 

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202-234-4433 

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239 

C E R T I F I C A T E 

This is to certify that the foregoing transcript 

In the matter of: TGI Freight 

Before: US DOT 

Date: 09-20-12 

Place: Anchorage, AK 

was duly recorded and accurately transcribed unqer 

my direction; further, that said transcript is a 

true and accurate record of the proceedings. 

(202) 234-4433 

Court Reporter 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com