YOUTH AND YOUNG ADULT CONSERVATION 

PROGRAMS 

OVERSIGHT HEARING 

BEFORE THE 

SUBCOMMITTEE ON 

NATIONAL PARKS, FORESTS AND PUBLIC LANDS 

OF THE 

COMMITTEE ON 

NATURAL RESOURCES 

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 

ONE HUNDRED THIRD CONGRESS 

FIRST SESSION 

ON 

THE AMERICA..~ CONSERVATION CORPS AND YOUTH CONSERVATION 

PROGRAMS ON FEDERAL, STATE AND LOCAL LANDS 

7~87 . 

HEARING HELD IN WASHINGTON, DC 

FEBRUARY 18, 1993 

Serial No. 103-6 

Printed for the use of the Committee on Natural Resources 

U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE 

WASHINGTON : 1993 

For sale by the U.S. GovcrnnK~nt Printing Office 

Superin1 c-.ndent of Documents, Congressional Salt.::s Office, Washington, DC 20402 

ISBN 0-16-041743-0 
COMMITIEE ON NATURAL RESOURCES 

GEORGE MILLER, California, Chairman 

PHILIP R. SHARP, Indiana 

EDWARD J . MARKEY, Massachusetts 

AUSTIN J. MURPHY, Pennsylvania 

NICK JOE RAHALL 11, West Virginia 

BRUCE F. VENTO, Minnesota 

PAT WILLIAMS, Montana 

RON DE LUGO, Virgin Islands 

SAM GEJDENSON, Connecticut 

RICHARD H. LEHMAN, California 

BILL RICHARDSON, New Mexico 

PETER A. DEFAZIO, Oregon 

ENI F.H. FALEOMAVAEGA, American 

Samoa 

TIM JOHNSON, South Dakota 

LARRY LAROCCO, Idaho 

NEIL ABERCROMBIE, Hawaii 

CALVIN M. DOOLEY, Califoi;nia 

CARLOS ROMERO-BARCELO, Puerto Rico 

KARAN ENGLISH, Arizona 

KAREN SHEPHERD, Utah 

NATHAN DEAL, Georgia 

MAURICE D. HINCHEY, New York 

ROBERT A. UNDERWOOD, Guam 

HOWARD BERMAN, California 

LANE EV ANS, Illinois 

PATSY T. MINK, Hawaii 

THOMAS J. BARLOW III, Kentucky 

THOMAS M. BARRETT, Wisconsin 

DON YOUNG, Alaska, 

Ranking Republican Member 

JAMES V. HANSEN, Utah 

BARBARA F. VUCANOVICH, Nevada 

ELTON GALLEGLY, California 

ROBERT F. SMITH, Oregon 

CRAIG THOMAS, Wyoming 

JOHN J . DUNCAN, JR., Tennessee 

JOEL HEFLEY, Colorado 

JOHN T. DOOLITTLE, California 

WAYNE ALLARD, Colorado 

RICHARD H. BAKER, Louisiana 

KEN CALVERT, California 

SCOTT McINNIS, Colorado 

RICHARD W. POMBO, California 

JAY DICKEY, Arkansas 

DAN BEARD, Staff Director 

RICHARD MELTZER, General Counsel 

DANIEL VAL KISH, Republican Staff Director 

SUBCOMMITTEE ON NATIONAL PARKS, FORESTS AND PUBLIC LANDS 

BRUCE F. VENTO, Minnesota, Chairman 

EDWARD J. MARKEY, Massachusetts JAMES V. HANSEN, Utah, 

NICK JOE RAHALL II, West Virginia Ranking Republican Member 

PAT WILLIAMS, Montana ROBERT F. SMITH, Oregon 

PETER A. DEFAZIO, Oregon CRAIG THOMAS, Wyoming 

TIM JOHNSON, South Dakota JOHN J. DUNCAN, JR., Tennessee 

LARRY LAROCCO, Idaho JOEL HEFLEY, Colorado 

NEIL ABERCROMBIE, Hawaji JOHN T. DOOLITTLE, California 

CARLOS ROMERO-BARCELO, Puerto Rico RICHARD H. BAKER, Louisiana 

KARAN ENGLISH, Arizona KEN CALVERT, California 

KAREN SHEPHERD, Utah JAY DICKEY, Arkansas 

MAURICE D. HINCHEY, New York 

ROBERT A. UNDERWOOD, Guam 

AUSTIN J. MURPHY, Pennsylvania 

BILL RICHARDSON, New Mexico 

PATSY T. MINK, Hawaii 

RICHARD HEALY, Staff Director 

ALEXANDER (SANDY} Sco'IT, Professional Staff Member 

CHARLENE SEAMENS, Clerk 

TONYA MrrcHEM, Staff Assistant 

KURT CHRISTENSEN, Republican Consultant on Public Lands 

(II) 
CONTENTS 

Hearing held: February 18, 1993 ......................................................................... .. Member statements: 

Hon. Bruce F. Vento ........................................................................................ . Hon. James V. Hansen .................................................................................... . Hon. Carlos A. Romero-Barcelo .............................................. : ....................... . Hon. Karan English ......................................................................................... . 

~~~: ~:rwk~.:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: 

Hon. John J. Duncan, Jr ................................................................................. . Hon. Karen Shepherd ...................................................................................... . Witness statements: Panel consisting of: 

F. Dale Robertson, Chief, Forest Services, U.S. Department of Agriculture .................................................................................................... . David L. Moffitt, Assistant Director, Visitor Services, National Park 

Service, Department of the Interior .................................................... . William F. Hartwig, Deputy Assistant Director, Fish and Wildlife 

Service, Department of the Interior .................................................... . Dick Staufenberger, Deputy Director, Commission on National and 

Community Service ............................................................................... . Panel consisting of: William A. Bailey, past president, Maryland chapter 113, National 

Association of Civilian Conservation Corps Alumni ........................ .. . Stephanie Alexander, student, Ballou High School, Washington, DC .. Jessica Trott, corps member, Maryland Conservation Corps ............... . Joanna Lennon, executive director, East Bay Conservation Corps, Oakland, CA ......................................... ................................................. . Harry William Dengler, Hyattsville, MD, Maryland extension forester 

(retired 1976) .................. ........................................................ .... .................. . Panel consisting of: T. DE:stry Jarvis, executive vice president, Student Conservation Association ................................................................................................. . Emilio Williams, director, Technical Assistance Services, National 

Association of Service and Conservation Corps ................................. . Frank J. Slobig, director of policy and programs, Youth Service 

America .................................................................................................. . Larry P. Fonnest, director, Minnesota Conservation Corps, Minnesota 

D~~1:f P.\Vh~~1~t::ie~&~~~~~·Ag~:;;~y:·s~~·~f ·c~iif~~i;·· Additional material for the hearing record from: Hon. Larry LaRocco: 1. Correspondence to F. Dale Robertson, Chief, Forest Service, from 

Hon. Larry LaRocco and Hon. Norm Dicks dated January 6, 1992 .. 2. Response from Chief Robertson to January 6 letter in regard ~ poteI?,t~a! jobs in timber stand improvement and forest restora- tion activ1t1es ............................... .... .... .................................................. . 

(III) 

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81 

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108 

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IV 

APPENDIX 

FEBRUARY 18, 1993 

Additional material for the hearing record from: Subcommittee on National Parks, Forests, and Public Lands: 

1. Letter dated March 4, 1993, to Secretary Bruce Babbitt, Department of the Interior, from Chairman Vento, enclosing follow-up 

2. Le~~!i:rro~--iI~-;~rt .. s'. .. c~ti·i~·~:·'i;::·A~ti~i·oi~~~~;·N~ti~~~1·i?~k 

Service, responding for Secretary Babbitt to Chairman Vento's 

March 4 letter and questions ............................................................... . 3. Letter dated March 4, 1993, to F. Dale Robertson, Chief, Forest 

Service, from Chairman Vento, enclosing follow-up questions .......... 4. Letter from F. Dale Robertson responding to Chairman Vento's 

March 4 letter and questions ............................................................... . 5. Letter and attachment from the Fish and Wildlife Service, re- sponding to Chairman Vento's request for additional information on the American Conservation Corps ................................................ ., Hon, Nancy Pelosi, a Representative in Congress from the State of California: Letter to Chairman Vento dated February 17, 1993, and prepared statement .......................................................................................... .. East Bay Reip.onal Parks District: Letter from Jocelyn Combs, President, 

Board of Directors, to Chairman Vento, and enclosure ........................... .. 

Page 

155 

157 

163 

165 

171 

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178 
THE AMERICAN CONSERVATION CORPS AND 

YOUTH CONSERVATION PROGRAMS ON 

FEDERAL, STATE AND LOCAL LANDS 

THURSDAY,FEBRUARY18, 1993 

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, 

COMMITTEE ON NATURAL RESOURCES, 

SUBCOMMITTEE ON NATIONAL PARKS, FORESTS 

AND PuBLIC LANDS, 

Washington, DC. 

The Subcommittee met, pursuant to call, at 10:04 a.m., in room 

1324, Longworth House Office Building, Hon. Bruce F. Vento 

(chairman of the Subcommittee), presiding. 

STATEMENT OF HON. BRUCE F. VENTO 

Mr. VENTO. The Subcommittee on National Parks, Forests and 

Public Lands will be in order. 

Before we proceed, let me extend a welcome to our new member 

of the Committee that is present, Mr. Carlos Romero-Barcelo, a 

new member from Puerto Rico. 

Congressman Romero, we are pleased that you are present. 

Other members, also, that are not present today that are serving 

on the Committee will probably be appearing at various times and 

perhaps we can introduce them during the questioning period. I 

guess it is the risk we take when we have a relatively early morning hearing after a late night program in the House of Representatives. 

This is the first Subcommittee meeting. I am pleased to welcome 

the new ranking member, Jim Hansen. He has long-time service on 

the Committee and has a vital interest in many of the issues before 

this Subcommittee. I would yield to him at this point, but I see his 

members have done no better at appearing this morning than ours, 

at least on time. Perhaps they will be by. 

So, let me just say this is the first hearing, and that reason for 

this is to try to build an awareness of the various programs, focus 

on the American Conservation Corps idea and the Youth Conservation Programs on Federal and State lands. · Several converging 

trends make this a timely subject. We heard last night from the 

President that the budget programs stimulus and long-term investment programs that the President has proposed embrace an idea 

of national service, and he has made this a top priority in his Administration. 

This advocacy of a service concept is both an outgrowth and a 

symbol of the rekindled spirit of citizenship and service to the com-

(1) 
2 

munity that I think is being embraced by the Nation. In the past 

decade we have seen an explosion of new State and local Conservation Corps programs. Currently some 25,000 young people are enrolled in 75 different youth service programs in 27 different States, 

and this number continues to grow. 

Finally, there is a growing interest in conservation service programs on Federal lands, or national lands, which would not only 

provide benefits to young people but would help the land management agencies' meet pressing needs in maintenance, habitat restoration and visitor services. 

I would ask unanimous consent that my complete statement be 

placed in the record. It outlines some of the history, the work of 

John Seiberling and the work of these programs and the evolution 

of them. I want to make it clear to the members that I think that 

there is not the awareness in the White House and the new Administration of the possibility of utilizing this program, so we have got 

some work to do to make certain that this program receives some 

of the attention and some of the allocation and authority of the new 

stimulus program. 

[Prepared statement of Mr. Vento follows:] 

OPENING STATEMENT OF CONGRESSMAN BRUCE F. VENTO, OVERSIGHT HEARING ON 

AMERICAN CONSERVATION CORPS AND YOUTH CONSERVATION PROGRAMS ON FEDERAL, STATE AND LOCAL LANDS, THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 18, 1993 

The subcommittee will come to order. Before we proceed I would like to extend a welcome to the new members of the subcommittee-on the majority side, Mr. Carlos Romero-Barcelo, Ms. Karan English, Ms. Karen Shepherd, Mr. Maurice Hinchey, Mr. Bob Underwood, and also Ms. Patsy Mink, who rejoins after an absence of some 16_years; and on the minority side-Mr. Baker, Mr. Calvert and Mr. Dickey. The first subcommittee meeting of the 103d Congress will focus on the American 

Conservation Corps [ACC] and Youth Conservation Programs [YCP] on Federal, 

State and local lands. 

Several converging trends make this a timely subject for an oversight hearing. 

First, the American people elected a President who embraced the ethic of national 

service and has made it a top priority of his administration. His championing of the 

service concept is both an outgrowth and a symbol of the rekindled spirit of citizenship and service to the community. Second, the past decade has seen an explosion 

of new State and local conservation corps. Currently, some 25,000 young people are enrolled in 75 youth service programs in 27 different States, and this number con- tinues to grow. Finally, there is growing interest in a conservation service program on the Federal lands which would not only provide benefits to young people but 

would help the land managing agencies meet pressing needs in maintenance, habitat restoration and visitor services. 

Conservation Corps programs have a long and proud history in America, dating 

back to the Depression when nearly 3 million young people participated in the Civilian Conservation Corps [CCC]. Their work is evident today in national and State 

parks and forests across the country. Known as Roosevelt's "Tree Army", CCC crews planted over 3 billion trees, constructed tens of thousands of shelters, bridges, 

monuments, signs and markers and developed hundreds of miles of trails and roads. The value oftheir accomplishments is incalculable. 

In 1970, Congress passed legislation establishing the Youth Conservation Corps 

[YCC] within the Departments of Interior and Agriculture. In 1976 the Young Adult 

Conservation Corps [YACC] was created. In their peak year of 1979, these programs 

employed over 100,000 youths in projects including range and timber management, 

fish and wildlife habitat restoration, trail maintenance and construction and visitor 

services on public lands. Despite their cost-effectiveness, in the past two administrations Presidents Reagan and Bush requested no funding for these programs during 

their terms. The YACC was eliminated in 1982 and the YCC continues to operate a small program in the Forest Service, the Fish and Wildlife Service and the National Park Service. These programs are popular within the agencies but since they 

do not have a separate budget line item, the programs are very limited in scope. 
3 

In the mid 1980s, I joined with Representative John Seiberling of Ohio, the previous chairman of this subcommittee, in an effort to establish an American Con- servation Corps to engage economically disadvantaged youth on conservation 

projects on Federal and Indian lands. In the 98th Congress this legislation passed 

the House and Senate with overwhelming bipartisan support but the bill was pocket 

vetoed by President Reagan in 1984. It passed the House again in the 99th Congress but was not acted on by the Senate. 

In 1990, Congress passed the National and Community Service Act. This act cre- ated the commission on national and community service to provide funds, training 

and technical assistance to States and communities to develop and expand service 

opportunities.,Last summer the first round of grants were awarded to 24 States and 

six Indian tribes, and additional funds were provided in the wake of the Los Angeles 

riots to the Los Angeles Conservation Corps. While the 1990 legislation went a long way towards furthering civic responsibility 

and assisting in the development of State and local Conservation Corps, the bill did 

not include a direct role for the Federal land managing agencies in conservation service programs. Thus, there is no such thing as the "American Conservation 

Corps". To me this is a significant omission in an otherwise fine law and one that 

needs to be rectified in a reauthorization bill or in concert with the President's National Service Initiative. Whether it is a revived CCC, an expanded YCC or a new ACC, there clearly is a need for a Conservation Corps Program on the national lands. I hear park superintendents and other public land administrators all over the country crying out for 

personnel to do the essential work of maintaining public lands. A 1985 congressional 

research service report concluded that there was over 900,000 years of labor inten- sive backlog work which could be done by the Conservation Corps in the Departments of Interior and Aip-iculture. These are not "make work" projects, nor are they 

projects which put existing employees out of work. They are projects which need to 

be done but which never will be done unless there is a new infusion of labor. The 

YCC is a cost-effective way to address these needs and it provides numerous other 

benefits to participants. These benefits include (1) education, (2) job training, (3) life skills and a (4) greater appreciation of natural and (5) historical resources of our Nation. 

Mr. VENTO. Let me at this time recognize my friend and colleague Mr. Hansen, the ranking member. 

STATEMENT OF HON. JAMES V. HANSEN 

Mr. HANSEN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate the opportunity of working with you this year and will look forward to, I am 

sure, many, many hours of going through hearings and mark-up and debate. In fact, there will probably be more than any other 

Committee in Congress, I am sure. And I have always appreciated 

your fairness in working with us. 

On this particular program, I am a great believer in helping people when they truly need help and it will lift them to higher 

ground. I remember my parents talking about the CCC boys out in 

the West, and my hometown of Farmington were recipients of the 

work that they did on the hill in Davis County, because prior to 

that time the towns were flooded out on a regular basis, and they 

referred to it as "mud, mules and men" that went up there and created benches and anti-flood controls. And all through the West people came, from the South and the East, and Texas and California, 

and they did a fantastic job in those areas. I would be curious to see how this idea that we are playing with 

now would tie into what President Clinton said last night. I would 

hope that it would be reasonable, and I hope that it would be something that would not be a make-work project but would be something that would above all help these people rise above things. 

They say you can't help people unless you stand on higher 

ground and pull them up. I sometimes worry that many of the 
4 

things we get involved in some are not standing on higher ground 

but they are looking for a job, and in this particular instance I hope 

that is not the case. I would like to ask unanimous consent to submit my full opening 

statement for the record. 

Mr. VENTO. Without objection. 

[Prepared statement of Mr. Hansen follows:] 
5 

THE HONORABLE JAMES V. HANSEN 

OPENING STATEMENT FOR HEARING ON 

AMERICAN CONSERVATION CORPS AND YOUTH 

CONSERVATION PROGRAMS ON FEDERAL STATE 

AND LOCAL LANDS 

FEBRUARY 18, 1993 

Mr. Chairman, thankyou for the opportunity to 

address this issue and I t~_ank the witnesses here today for 

providing us with their input. The YCC and the YACC 

were both modeled after the Civilian Conservation Corps 

or CCCs of the 1930's. The CCC program did a 

tremendous work on behalf of this country in return for 

good jobs and experience in a time when people in this 

country were really suffering and destitute. We used to 

refer to the CCC boys as "mud, mules and men." They 

combated erosion, cleaned up forests, worked in the parks 

and a multitude of other great services. We should be 

proud of these people who served this country well 

between 1933 and 1942. 
6 

-2-

However, in the 1970's we had the misfortune of 

resurrecting the CCC program that resulted in the current 

YCC. We were not in a severe depression in 1970 nor are 

we now. Although many of my colleagues would disagree, 

funding for the YCC has not been noncontroversial. In 

fact, the YACC died out in 1980 and the YCC has been 

greatly scaled back since that time. I personally have been 

against this "make work" program since 1984 along with 

many of my colleagues from both sides of the isle. 

I want to make it clear that I am not against assisting 

the disadvantaged youth of our country but a "make work" 

program such as this does not require federal funding. I 

have no doubt that states such as California are being very 
7 

-3-

successful with these type of programs and I believe that 

they should continue to support them from their own state 

coffers if they so desire. 

I have spent over 20 years counseling with young 

people in ecclesiastical positions and in government 

positions where I have found that we simply need to point 

our youth in the right direction of opportunities that 

already exist so that they may use their own ingenuity, 

imagination and courage to go out and find jobs and gain 

experiences. The youth of our country do not have to turn 

to the federal government for their opportunities and 

"make work" programs are certainly not the answer. 
8 

-4-

Instead of the federal government being the answer to 

all problems I think we should be looking to private 

volunteer opportunities and to the assistance of corporate 

America. If a youth wants the experience of working 

outdoors in a useful manner they only need to look around 

their own communities to find these opportunities. One 

program that is near and dear to my heart is the Boy 

Scouts of America. The Boy Scouts have taken some real 

serious blows to their institution over the past year or two 

but what a great opportunity for a young man who wants to 

gain the experiences and knowledge offered by the Boy 

Scouts. There are also many other opportunities out there 

including obviously the Girl Scouts, the Appalachian Trail 

Club and many other volunteer organizations that perform 
9 

-5-

public service, provide meaningful experiences and allow 

the youth of our country to grow and learn without the 

assistance of Washington and its deep pocket. 

We have heard a lot this week about the sacrifices 

required to bring this country back into economic health. 

Whether I agree with the President's economic plan or not, 

I do know that we must stop funding what I see as luxuries 

when other basic, fundamental programs are hurting. 

When we are able to adequately fund road repairs and fill 

staff positions in our national parks and forests and take 

care of those basic requirements, then we can look at 

funding programs which are not a basic need. 
10 

-6-

I appreciate the efforts of the state programs and I do 

not doubt the value of these programs; however, that does 

not mean that further federal funding is necessary or 

appropriate. Let's take advantage of the opportunities that 

already exist and call upon corporate America to get 

involved in the future of our youth. 
11 

Mr. HANSEN. And, if I may, and I am embarrassed to say this, 

but I am ranking on an Armed Services Committee meeting that 

is going on right now and they are expecting me to come over and 

say a couple of opening remarks. So I will try to get back just as 

soon as I can. I do appreciate these folks being here and I look forward to their testimony. 

Mr. VENTO. I appreciate the gentleman's presence and his remarks. 

Without objection, all statements in their entirety, opening statements of members and of the witnesses, will be made a part of the 

record. Hearing no objection, so ordered. 

Congressman Romero? 

STATEMENT OF HON. CARLOS A ROMERO-BARCELO 

Mr. ROMERO-BARCELO. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate 

the opportunity to be here at the first meeting of the Subcommittee. 

When I was a mayor in San Juan we made a lot of use of Federal 

funds to employ youths in the summer, and it certainly was helpful 

for keeping kids out of the street. It offered them an opportunity 

to learn the importance of working. As a mayor, I saw these programs as a great opportunity for young men and girls in the summertime and also during the year. But most important in the sum- mertime when so many youths are idle in the streets. We in Puerto Rico made good use of these funds and they have 

been very helpful in our fight against juvenile delinquency and in 

getting the youth oriented toward something constructive instead 

of being on the streets without anything to do in the summer except looking for trouble. 

Finally, I would like to say that I am very glad to be participat- ing in this committee, which I consider to be the most enjoyable as 

far as the type of work that we will be doing and the issues in 

which we will be involved. The issues we have to deal with are 

really enjoyable work, and I am very happy to have the opportunity 

to be working with you. 

Mr. VENTO. Thank you very much for your remarks and your 

support on the Committee. I might point out that the background information is before the 

members prepared by staff. We have very able staff on the majority 

side led by Rick Healy, who is the chief of staff, who is sitting behind you Carlos, and with me this morning is one of the other staff 

members, Sandy Scott, who I think did most of the work on this 

background. They are available to answer questions, to help members, to direct witnesses, and so forth. We also have a clerk, 

Charlene Seamens, who is present this morning with another assistant. She is also there to collect the testimony. So, as we go 

through these it is important to recognize the work that they do 

in terms of supporting the subcommittee and our efforts. We are 

a very busy Subcommittee in the Congress, one of the busiest, I 

think, of the Committees, and therefore need and rely upon staff 

to an extent that I think is unusual in the Congress. 

We are very pleased to welcome the witnesses that have come 

forth today, especially from the land management agencies as well 

as the deputy director of the Commission on National and Commu-
12 

nity Service, Richard Staufenberger. From the Forest Service, we 

have Dale Robertson on this first panel, as well as David Moffitt, 

assistant director, Visitor Service, National Park Service. We rely 

on the various land management agencies very often to describe 

their professional work and views and insights regarding the Subcommittee's initiatives. So we are again appreciative at the beginning of this session of their efforts to participate in this process and 

to, hopefully, engage in utilization of the program initiatives that 

are coming out of the White House. 

Your statements, gentlemen, have been made part of the record. 

Chief Robertson, you can feel free to summarize in about 5 minutes. If you could, it would be helpful, as we have a long list of witnesses. 

Welcome, Dale. 

PANEL CONSISTING OFF. DALE ROBERTSON, CIDEF, FOREST 

SERVICE, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE; DAVID L. 

MOFFITT, ASSISTANT DIRECTOR, VISITOR SERVICES, NATIONAL PARK SERVICE, DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR; 

WILLIAM F. HARTWIG, DEPUTY ASSISTANT DIRECTOR, FISH 

AND WILDLIFE SERVICE; AND DICK STAUFENBERGER, DEPUTY DIRECTOR, COMMISSION ON NATIONAL AND COMMUNITY SERVICE 

STATEMENT OFF. DALE ROBERTSON 

Mr. ROBERTSON. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you for 

holding this hearing on the YCC program. 

As President Clinton has made national service one of his top priorities and strongly supports the concept of the Youth Conservation Corps, and also my new boss, Secretary Espy, Secretary of Agriculture, has expressed his desire to work with the Forest Service 

to make sure the Department of Agriculture has an important part 

of this national service effort. 

Forest Service has a long history of managing conservation work 

programs started with the Civilian Conservation Corps during the 

1930s, and we also have about 28 years of experience in running 

Job Corps Centers on the national forests. We have been very active in the YCC program. The YCC program fits extremely well 

with the mission of the Forest Service in accomplishing needed conservation work on the national forests, providing summer employment for youth, and to provide the youth with a good understanding and appreciation for the importance of conservation and natural resource management. To give you an idea of our involvement in YCC-it has fluctuated 

over time as the budget has gone up and down-but our largest 

program was in 1978 when we had over 14,000 YCC enrollees in 

the Forest Service with 64 residential camps. But, with the shrinking budget over time, we have stabilized at about 1,200 YCC enroll- ees over the last few years. 

We do not get a direct appropriation for YCC, but get direction 

in our Appropriation Act to spend not less than $1 million a year 

on YCC, and last year we spent $~.5 million dollars and had 1,185 

youths. 
13 

In our view, Mr. Chairman, there is a natural partnership here 

between getting the youth of the Nation involved in the outdoors 

and achieving the conservation job on the public lands. In fact, we 

feel so strongly about this that we are pilot testing a new concept 

this summer with the National Forest Foundation, which is a charitable, nonprofit corporation authorized by Congress in 1990. The 

National Forest Foundation has decided to sponsor and fund three 

pilot youth forest camps this summer patterned after the YCC program. And the National Forest Foundation working with the Forest 

Service envision establishing new forest camps to provide self-confidence, social skills, discipline and job training for at-risk youths. 

We are excited about the potential for youth forest camps sponsored by the National Forest Foundation because it benefits both 

the youth and helps get high priority conservation work done on 

the national forest. 

Under this new pilot program, this summer we will be forging 

some new partnerships with the private sector, with local community leaders, and we even have a provision provided in that for people, either families or individuals or companies or organizations, to 

sponsor a youth at one of these camps through scholarships. We 

are looking forward to that program. Be happy to share our experience with the Committee as we pilot test this idea this summer. 

I would like to just close by saying, Mr. Chairman, that we are 

really enthusiastic and excited about the youth programs, and especially the YCC program, because it provides much needed work 

experience for the youth in the outdoors, it permits us to get badly 

needed conservation work done on the national forest, and everybody wins. So we are looking forward to this and we are anxious 

to work with the Committee and the Congress and support President Clinton and the new Administration in their efforts on the 

Youth Program. 

So with that I will close. 

Mr. VENTO. Well, thank you, Chief. Thank you for your remarks, 

and we will get back with a few questions, especially on the Foundation and their work. 

[Prepared statement of Mr. Robertson follows:] 
14 

STATEMENT OF 

F. DALE ROBERTSON, CHIEF 

FOREST SERVICE 

UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE 

Before the 

Subcommittee on National Parks, Forests and Public Lands 

Committee on Natural Resources 

United States House of Representatives 

Concerning Youth Conservation Programs 

February 18, 1 993 

MR. CHAIRMAN AND MEMBERS OF THE SUBCOMMITTEE : 

Thank you for the opportunity to discuss Youth Conservation 

Corps Programs in the Forest Service. I am accompanied today by 

David Gross, Human Resource Programs Officer on the Mt . Hood 

National Forest. Mr . Gross has 14 years experience running a 

Youth Conservation Camp--more experience than anyone in the 

Forest Service . 

I am particularly pleased to be here since President Clinton has 

made national service one of the top priorities of his 

administration and supports the idea of youth conservation corps 

as a way to restore infrastructure on public lands, while 

inspiring civic pride and service values in America's y outh. 

Secretary Espy has expressed his desire to do everything 

possible to make the Department of Agriculture a n important part 

o f the national service effo rt. 
15 

The Forest Service has a long history of managing conservation 

work programs. We were one of the leading agencies in the 

Civilian Conservation Corps (CCC) that employed thousands of 

workers during the economic hard times of the 1930's. We also 

have 28 years experience in running Job Corps Civilian 

Conservation Centers on the National Forests. 

The Forest Service has participated in the the Youth 

Conservation Corps (YCC) Camps program for 22 years--since its 

inception in 1971. And despite dramatic fluctuations in funding 

over the years, our commitment to youth camps projects has never 

wavered. 

The YCC is a seasonal employment program for young men and women 

ages 15 through 18 from all segments of society. Patterned 

after the Civilian Conservation Corps of the 1930's, the program 

provides teenage employment and environmental education, and 

accomplishes conservation work on public lands. 

The objectives of the program are to: (1) accomplish needed 

conservation work on public lands; (2) provide employment for 

teenagers from all segments of society; and (3) develop an 

understanding and appreciation in youth of the Nation's natural 

environment and heritage. 
16 

Enrollees are paid minimum wage for 40 hours of work per week. 

YCC programs in the Forest Service offer youth opportunities to 

commute to work in the forest or live in a forest setting. 

Mr. Gross operates a residential program on the Mt. Hood 

National Forest in Oregon. Local communities and organizations 

work with the Forest Service program at Camp Cody and contribute 

resources so that youth have an opportunity to work and live at 

a forest location. 

YCC enrollees perform many tasks that would not be accomplished 

otherwise. Their projects support recreation, fish and 

wildlife, range and forage, timber, and infrastructure and 

facility enhancement objectives on the National Forests and 

yield significant benefits to the natural resources and to the 

public. Of special note is one crew consisting of teenagers 

with disabilities led by a volunteer leader. This crew 

maintained and cleaned campgrounds and worked o n projects that 

provide opportunities for other people with disabilities to 

enjoy the National Forests . Public land agencies benefit in 

another way from the YCC program--understanding of Forest 

Service programs is enhanced and good will created in the 

community through youth involvement in the program. 

The program provides the youth with an opportunity to acquire 

increased self-knowledge and self-discipline. They learn about 

the work ethic and how to relate to peers and supervisors from 

various social, economic , ethnic, and racial backgrounds. In 
17 

addition, YCC participants develop an awareness of the 

environment and a conservation ethic that lasts a lifetime. 

The number of enrollees in the YCC program has fluctuated over 

its history--corresponding to changes in the Federal budget. In 

the early years, as many as 14,190 (1978) enrollees participated 

in the program annually. And as many as 64 residential centers 

operated on National Forest lands. In 1980, 10,600 enrollees 

participated in the program, but with shrinking budgets, the 

number of enrollees has stabilized since 1988 at about 1,200. 

In the last several years, there has been no direct 

appropriations for the Youth Conservation Corps program. The 

Forest Service has been directed through language in the 

Interior and Related Agencies Appropriations Acts to spend "not 

less than $1 million dollars" on the program. In 1992, the 

Forest Service actually spent $2.5 million and 1,185 youth 

participated in the program. In contrast to the days when the 

Forest Service operated many residential camps, Mr. Gross 

operates the only residential camp that remains today. 

In terms of the conservation work accomplished, we estimate that 

the value of the resource work accomplished by YCC enrollees 

since 1990 is about $9.8 million. In fact, we estimate that 

$1.32 was returned on every YCC dollar invested by the Forest 

Service in 1992 in terms of conservation work. This substantial 

return does not account for the value of the intangible benefits 

to the young people participating in the program in terms of 

personal growth and education. 
18 

Our commitment to youth and the benefits of conservation camp 

programs remains high and we are working with new partners on 

another youth and conservation effort. The National Forest 

Foundation, a charitable, non-profit corporation, authorized by 

P.L. 101-593 in 1990, has decided to sponsor and fund three 

pilot Youth Forest Camps patterned after the YCC this summer. 

The National Forest Foundation received $500,000 in startup 

funds for fiscal year 1993. The National Forest Foundation 

envisions establishing youth forest camps to provide 

self-confidence, social skills, discipline, and job training for 

at-risk youth. Grounded in the basic YCC experience, the 

National Forest Foundation pilot camps will increase 

environmental awareness, self-confidence, and social skills, and 

also emphasize math, science, and analytical skills. 

We are excited about this project because it will benefit youth 

and resource programs. We are gratified, too, because the pilot 

will forge new partnerships between the Forest Service, the 

private sector, and community leaders. 

As we gain experience with the pilot of National Forest 

Foundation Youth Camps, we would be happy to share our 

experiences with you and work with the members of the 

Subcommittee to expand the opportunities for youth in 

conservation programs. Programs like the YCC and the National 

Forest Foundation Youth Camp pilot are ways to restore 

infrastructure on public lands, while giving youth opportunities 

to acquire increased self- knowledge, build their awareness of 

the environment, and foster civic pride. We will do everything 
19 

we can to fulfill the President ' s wish to support youth civilian 

conservation corps throughout the c ountry. 

Also, as details of the 1994 budget become available we will be 

happy to pass these d e tails on to you and answer any questions 

you may have about the budget at that time. 

Mr. Chairman, this concludes my statement. I would be happy t o 

answer any questions you or members of the Subcommittee may 

have. 
20 

Mr. VENTO. We are pleased to welcome as well at the table Mr. 

William Hartwig, deputy assistant director of the U.S. Fish and 

Wildlife Service. 

We are very pleased that you are here, Mr. Hartwig, and we will 

hear from you, but first we want to call on David Moffitt, the assistant director of Visitor Services, the National Park Service, who 

will give testimony for his agency. 

Mr. Moffitt, welcome. 

STATEMENT OF DAVID L. MOFFITT 

Mr. MOFFITT. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate the opportunity to appear before your Committee today and provide you with 

information on the Youth Conservation Corps program within the 

National Park System. 

National Park Service has been involved with the Youth Conservation Corps since 1970, and over the past 22 years significant 

work has been accomplished by the YCC in our national parks. As 

in the case of the Forest Service, Congress has directed that we expend not less than $1 million dollars, nor more than $3 million dollars, annually on the program. Funds expended for the program 

come from existing operational funds of each participating park. 

There is no specific appropriation for the Youth Conservation Corps 

program. The program must compete with other operational needs. 

Three major objectives of the YCC are to: accomplish needed conservation work; provide gainful employment for youth ages 15 to 18 

years, male and female, from all social, economic, ethnic and racial 

backgrounds, and develop in participating youth an understanding 

and appreciation of our Nation's natural and cultural treasures. 

During fiscal year 1992 the National Park Service expended $1,500,000 plus at 111 locations within the System. The appraised 

value of the work projects accomplished was over $2.5 million, for 

a cost-benefit ratio of $1.53 return on every dollar spent for the 

program. 

Examples of projects completed by Youth Conservation Corps 

program participants last year are construction and maintenance of 

fencing; landscape beautification projects; trail construction; sign 

construction; erosion control projects; range vegetation control 

projects; restoration of historical areas and monuments. 

Participants in the program are required to receive environmental awareness training as part of their experience. Supervisors 

of the youth are park employees who are innovative and can share 

their environmental sensitivity with these young people. Their 

work projects are integrated into the normal park operational activities. 

The National Park Service also participates in the Job Corps program, which is funded through the Department of Labor. In our 

four Job Corps Civilian Conservation Corps Centers, young adults 

primarily from seriously disadvantaged circumstances are given vocational and academic training. Three of the four centers are located within national park units: Mammoth Cave National Park, 

Great Smoky Mountains National Park, and Gateway National 

Recreation Area. The fourth is located near Harpers Ferry National 

Historical Park. Participants in the program perform needed work 

within the parks as part of their vocational training. 
21 

I would also add that we are involved with the Student Conservation Association, whom you will hear from later, Mr. Chairman. 

This concludes my prepared testimony. I would be pleased to answer any questions you might have. 

Mr. VENTO. Thank you very much, Mr. Moffitt. We will have a 

question or two, but would like to hear from the other witnesses 

on the panel first. 

I would ask Mr. Hartwig, deputy assistant director, U.S. Fish 

and Wildlife Service, to make his presentation at this time. 

Mr. Hartwig? 

STATEMENT OF WILLIAM F. HARTWIG 

Mr. HARTWIG. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It is a pleasure to appear before the Committee again this year. 

The Fish and Wildlife Service has a 22-year relationship with the 

Youth Conservation Corps program. The objectives of that program, of course, already having been stated, are to: accomplish 

needed conservation work on public lands; provide gainful employment for young adults between the ages of 15 and 18 from all social, economic, ethnic and racial classifications; and aid participating youths in the development of an understanding and appreciation of the Nation's natural environment and heritage. 

To give you an idea of what the Fish and Wildlife Service has 

done with our YCC enrollees, they have worked at various facilities 

within the National Wildlife Refuge System, our national fish 

hatchery program, and our research stations. Some of the projects 

they have worked on are construction of handicap-accessible fishing 

piers, boardwalks, fences, and natural trails at many of the facilities mentioned above, and of course, maintenance of these fences, 

trails, observation decks, and signs. In addition to those types of 

activities, enrollees have also been responsible for conducting bird 

counts, relocating prairie dogs, and tagging striped bass fingerlings 

to be released in the Chesapeake Bay, as well as environmental 

studies and habitat improvement projects. 

We feel that in addition to earning money the participants have 

had the opportunity to gain an appreciation of their natural heritage, learn to work with others, and experience a sense of accomplishment. Local communities have also benefited from the YCC 

program, as many of their youth have been employed and the relationship between the local community and the Service's field staff 

has been enhanced. In addition, local businesses enjoy an economic 

benefit that results from the sale of material and supplies. 

From 1981 to 1992, the Fish and Wildlife Service has employed 

over 12,000 youth in the YCC program at a cost exceeding $23 million. Estimated value of the projects during that period exceeded 

$27 million. During the last 6 years, the Service supported the program at $1 million a year. That level of funding has supported 

about 550 enrollees. 

This concludes my remarks, and I am available for any questions. 

Mr. VENTO. Yes. Thank you, Mr. Hartwig. We will have some 

questions for you. 
22 

Mr. VENTO. Finally on this panel we have Richard 

Staufenberger, who is the Deputy Director of the Commission on 

National and Community Service, who has presented us with a 

long and detailed statement, and we hope you can try and summarize that, so we can get to you to answer some questions. 

Welcome. Please proceed. 

STATEMENT OF DICK STAUFENBERGER 

Mr. STAUFENBERGER. Very quickly, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate 

the opportunity to also appear before you today. I would like to just 

introduce two staff people I have with me: Kim Tso, who is our program associate for Youth Corps, and Terry Russell is our general 

counsel. 

The Commission, as you know, was established in 1990 and it is 

governed by a 21-member bipartisan board. The first meeting of 

the Commission actually didn't occur until September of 1991 and 

we were able to make our first grants in June of 1992. In that 

grant cycle the Commission gave out 154 grants for approximately 

$63 million, and those grants were across four program areas: K12 to engage youth in primary and secondary schools in community 

service; higher education, to engage the college students in community service; eight demonstration models for national service; and 

the Youth Corps program. I will actually confine most of the rest 

of my remarks to the Youth Corps program. The Youth Corps we fund are stipended, primarily full-time and 

summer service with post-service benefits, and we believe that they 

have two primary elements that make them important for the 

youth of America. First, they provide training and education opportunities for our youth; and second, they give the youth an opportunity to provide needed and meaningful service to the community, 

and through that service we believe that instills the sense of the 

ethic of civic responsibility into the participants, and it is that ethic 

of civic responsibility that is one of the primary goals of the Commission. 

We just issued our first annual report, and that report lays out 

some of the elements that we believe constitute the ingredients of 

a good Youth Corps. There would be meaningful service. We believe 

that the service shouldn't be make-work. It should be service that 

both helps the participants and helps the community. Education 

and skills development for the participants is important. We believe that the participant should have a variety of assignments. It 

shouldn't be just doing one thing for 9 months. Provide marketable 

skills for the participants. We believe that there should be institutional collaboration; that is, the Youth Corps should be involved 

with other programs in the community, whether it is mentoring in 

the schools, working in the hospitals, or working in the environmental area. 

Our board encourages diversity in the programs. We believe that 

mixing youth from different socioeconomic backgrounds will benefit 

both the youth and the community. And finally, we believe that 

staff leadership and Corps leadership is an important element of 

a good Corps. 

When the Commission issued its report this year it was so impressed with what was going on in the Youth Corps that in making 
23 

a recommendation I think it said it believes the numbers of opportunities for youth in the Corps should be expanded substantially, 

and for those members that don't have a copy of our report we have 

copies here and I think we have delivered some up here. 

So that concludes my formal statement. I also will take questions. 

Mr. VENTO. Well, thank you very much, Mr. Staufenberger. 

[Prepared statement of Mr. Staufenberger follows:] 
24 

STATEMENT OF 

DICK STAUFENBERGER, DEPUTY DIRECTOR 

COMMISSION ON NATIONAL AND COMMUNITY SERVICE 

BEFORE THE 

COMMITTEE ON NATURAL RESOURCES 

SUBCOMMITTEE ON NATIONAL PARKS, FORESTS AND PUBLIC LANDS 

UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 

FEBRUARY 18, 1993 

It is an honor to appear before you today. My name is Dick Staufenberger, 

and I am the Deputy Director of the Commission on National and Community 

Service. The Commission was established by the National and Community 

Service Act of 1990 [PL 101-610, as amended] with its primary purpose to renew 

the ethic of civic responsibility in the United States through the regeneration of a 

spirit of service at every level of our communities. 

The Commission, governed by a 21-member bipartisan board of directors 

appointed by the President and confirmed by the Senate, is charged with a 

number of responsibilities, including the administration of grant programs in the 

areas of Kindergarten through 12th grade, higher education, youth corps, and 

national service models. The Commission's three main strategies for 

accomplishing the goals set out in the Act are to encourage model programs, to 

support leaders and organizational infrastructure, and to contribute to visionary, 

coalition-building of the field. Additionally, we are seeking to utilize existing 

resources by tapping into the wealth of diverse ideas at the state and local, 

governmental level and the public and private initiatives of the resurgent youth 

service movement. 

In fiscal year 1992, Congress appropriated $75 million for Commission 

programs and operations. During the first grant cycle, the Commission received 

504 applications from 388 applicants for $226 million in the four major program 

areas, and made 154 grants totaling $63 million. The grants fall under 4 main 

categories: "Serve America" for grades K-12 (subtitle Bl), Higher Education 

Initiatives (subtitle B2), American Conservation and Youth Corps (subtitle C), 
25 

and National and Community Service Models (subtitle D). While all these 

programs focus primarily on youth, some of the programs funded make use of 

special senior participants and other adults. In addition to its main grants 

programs, the Commission has either made, or is making, grants for a variety of 

innovative projects, regional service learning clearinghouses, and other technical 

assistance measures for the service field. 

In the Serve-America program, 57 grants were made totaling over $16 

million to States, Indian tribes, and local non profit organizations for programs 

sponsored by schools or community-based agencies to involve school-age youth 

in service to the community. Serve-America also supports programs that involve 

adult volunteers in the schools. In an effort to build service learning into the 

curriculum of every school in America, these Commission grants are helping to 

implement and expand service learning innovations in elementary and 

secondary schools. Service learning is a powerful educational tool whereby 

students learn through hands-on application and participation, and 

opportunities for reflection on service activities. Through service learning, both 

academic skiils and the practical application of skills to real life problems can be 

developed. For this reason, service learning is an integral part of all of the 

Commission's programs. 

In the Serve-America program, funding was allocated to state applicants 

according to a formula, which was based on the school-aged population of each 

state. In most cases, state school agencies will subgrant to local schools, school 

districts and community based organizations. In addition, the Commission 

identified eight states as having "leader program status" based on the strength of 

their proposals and the ability to expand their service learning techniques 

nationwide. Colorado, the District of Columbia, Maryland, Minnesota, 

Pennsylvania, South Carolina, Vermont and West Virginia were designated as 

leader states. 

Higher education institutions, as well as public or private, non-profit 

agencies working in partnership with those institutions, were eligible for grants 

under the Higher Education Initiatives program. Fifty-eight grants were 

awarded totaling over $5 million to support more than 200 colleges and 

universities. With these grants, colleges and universities are exploring new ways 

to integrate service into the curriculum, supporting model community service 

programs on campuses, and developing teacher and volunteer training 

programs. These institutions of higher education have tremendous potential to 

2 
26 

assist other Commission grantees through research and evaluation, teacher 

training, and development of future community service leaders. 

The National and Community Service Models grants were awarded to 7 

states and one Indian tribe to test models of potentially large-scale national 

service programs. Each of these grants has distinct attributes: some are urban or 

rural, some are individual, team or crew based; and some are full-time and parttime. Some models focus on individual cities or rural areas within a state, while 

others operate statewide programs. Some models will have participants engaged 

in labor-intensive outdoor or conservation work, while others will concentrate on 

human service delivery. Despite their differences, all the programs have as their 

goal not only the delivery of effective community service targeted to critical 

needs, but also the personal, educational and civic development of participants. 

In every program, all participants receive living allowances and scholarships for 

college or technical training as a post-service benefit. 

But of all Commission program areas, the one that would be of most 

interest to this subcommittee is the American Conservation and Youth Service 

Corps program, or subtitle C. Participants in corps funded under this program 

are young people engaged fuil-time or part-time, either for the summer or yearround, in providing service to their communities. In return, they receive living 

allowances and earn post-service scholar5hips. Stipends in Commission-funded 

programs are between $100 and $200 per week and post-service scholarships are 

up to $5,000. Most typically, corpsmembers are organized into teams and are 

supervised by a crew leader who serves as a work supervisor, mentor, teacher, 

and sometimes, as a counselor. A few of the programs are residential, which 

allows them to provide emergency response for fires, floods, and other natural 

disasters on a 24-hour basis. Some of the programs also allow senior citizens to 

participate as special participants. The projects can range from conservation 

work on public lands, to tutoring in elementary schools and running after-school 

programs. The young people also participate in individual;zed educational 

programs through which they take high school or college classes in the evenings 

and participate in life skills classes ana career development activities. 

While job skills are an anticipated benefit of these programs, youth corps 

differ from job corps in that the service component is an essential ingredient of 

the program and thus, corpsmembers gain an appreciation of giving something 

back to the community. In essence, they are helping to solve real community 

problems. It is the Commission's belief that this aspect of our programs prepares 

3 
27 

participants better to help lead their communities. Service learning provides a 

forum for participants to reflect on their service experiences and to carry out 

"hands-on" application of classroom learning. 

Under Subtitle C, 32 grants were awarded totaling over $20 million; 24 

grants went to states and localities, 6 to Indian tribes, and 2 special grants to 

corps for disaster relief efforts. After the Commission awarded its grants, a 

number of states then began an effort of subgranting. Thus, the total number of 

corps funded by the Commission, either directly as a grantee or indirectly as a 

subgrantee, far exceeds the 32 initial grants. Seven state grants were to enhance 

or expand existing corps, 11 grants were to begin new corps programs and 11 

grants both expanded and created new corps. Of these state grants, 34 corps 

funded directly or through subgrants focus on conservation issues, and 62 corps 

provide a combination of conservation and service work. 

A major part of the Commission's strategy is to provide information on 

the impact of its programs. It is with this in mind that the Commission has 

devoted a significant portion of its resources to program evaluation. Through 

the evaluation of Subtitle C programs, the Commission hopes to be able to 

advance knowledge about a corps' impact on the participants as well as on the 

communities in which they serve. The evaluation will also help us identify what 

particular aspects of corps programs "work" to produce the desired results. 

The corps programs funded under Subtitle C may carry out activities such 

as conservation, rehabilitation, and improvement of wildlife habitat, rangelands, 

parks, and recreational areas; urban and rural revitalization, historical and 

cultural site preservation, and reforestation of both urban and rural areas; and 

energy conservation projects for example. One example of a successful youth 

urban conservation corps is the YouthBuild Boston program which involves 

unemployed youth in renovating abandoned buildings. Part of the 

Commission's grant to YouthBuild Boston is to pilot an environmental 

construction program whereby corpsmembers assist elderly homeowners with 

energy conservation in their homes and test soil for toxins in an abandoned lot 

which has been targeted for affordable housing. 

A grant to the Florida Conservation Corps will engage corpsmembers in a 

wetland plant nursery project, in which they will establish and maintain the 

nursery as a cost-effective, ready source of necessary plants to re-establish the 

wetlands throughout the State. This innovative program satisfies the need to 

mitigate the reduction of Florida's wetlands with a dedicated source of plants 

4 
28 

and also provides corpsmembers the opportunity to learn and experience native 

flora knowledge, conservation, ecological compatibility, greenhouse operations, 

fertilization procedures, logistics and replenishment. 

The Kickapoo Tribe corps program (in Kansas) is an example of an Indian 

tribe working on conservation issues tailored specifically to the needs of the 

Native-American community. With the assistance of a grant from the 

Commission, corpsmembers are engaged in projects such as tribal park 

reforestation and a cultural foods planting and storing program, the corps creates 

and preserves a unique intergenerational relationship between the Native 

American youth and their elders. By doing such work, the corpsmembers are 

able make important conservation contributions to their tribe, the larger 

community, and the state. Other examples of Commission funded youth corps 

conservation activities include: 

• the Los Angeles Conservation Corps clearing trails in the Santa Monica 

mountains. 

• the Swinomish Tribal Community Service Team of the Washington 

State Service Corps excavating a tribal fishing village. 

• the PennsvlvaP.ia Comervation Corps restoring a public lodge in the 

Allegheny mouEtains. 

~ the Calitornia Conservation Corps helping in natural disasters such as 

forest fires or blizzards. 

• the Minnesota Conservation Corps working on conservation efforts. 

• the Greater Miami Service Corps is helping in the clean up of the 

devastation of Hurricane Andrew. 

The Commission has just started its fiscal year 1993 funding cycle, and is 

committed to renewing the original grantees provided they have made 

satisfactory progress ai,d have quality plans for second year funds. We feel that 

in order for our evaluation efforts to have significant results, we mnst support 

those programs which continue to show progress in developing quality elements 

of their corps program:. (such as ser,;ice learning). 

In addition to administering the grants programs delineated above, the 

Commission expects soon to be working with the Department of Defense on 

initiatives authorized in the 1992 Defen::.e Authorization Act. The part of the bill 

that most directly effects the Commission h~s two key objectives: 1) to involve 

retired, inactive, or dischargc0d military personnei in volunteer programs 

involving youth, and 2) to encourage the establishment or expansion of yomh 

5 
29 

community service projects in areas adversely affected by the recent closing of a 

military installation. The legislation provides for three components, a National 

Guard Civilian Youth Opportunities Program, a Civilian Community Corps, and 

"Other Programs," that involve the Commission to some degree. The 

Commission is in the process of working with the National Guard to collaborate 

o~ program evaluation measures on its National Guard Civilian Youth 

Opportunities Program. The National Guard's pilot programs are to determine 

whether the life skills and employment opportunities of young people who do 

not complete their secondary education can be significantly improved through 

military-based training, including supervised work experience in community 

service and conservation projects. As evaluation is a key component in 

determining the effectiveness of such programs on attitudes, skills, and 

education, the Commission hopes to share with the National Guard the lessons 

learned from each of its experiences to date. 

The Civilian Community Corps program will put $20 million in FY 1993 

appropriations into residential programs involving young people in projects that 

benefit the community. The participants will have the opportunity to earn 

educational credits or cash benefits, as well as room, board, reimbursements for 

necessary expenses, and a Jiving allowance. The CCC will consist of two 

programs: the Summer National Service Program and the National Service 

Program. Both will recruit a diverse group of young people (frort1 different age 

brackets) to work on valuable community projects. The Commission has the 

responsibility for appointing the Director of the Corps, and monitoring and 

supervising the administration of the corps. 

The section of the Act entitled "Other Programs" authorizes $20 million 

for the Commission to expand and administer non-residential urban and rural 

community service projects that assist in the economic transition of localities 

affected by the Department of Defense conversion. 

In its recent annual report to Congress, the Commission described its 

efforts thus far, and made recommendations on how to capitalize on the promise 

of community service. It outlined how to build infrastructures of community 

service throughout the states and nationwide, and at what rate and cost it could 

be accomplished. All of this was with an eye to making community service an 

integral part of every American's life. 

With regard to youth corps programs, the report concluded, among other 

things, that while some corps programs were operating at their best, many of the 

6 
30 

corps could improve by incorporating "best practices" of other corps. Moreover, 

thus far the Commission's experience has revealed that there are four key areas 

which are critical to ensuring meaningful service experiences for corps members: 

1) quality assignments, 2) service learning, 3) post-service life preparation, and 4) 

staff development. We strongly believe that incorporating each of these elements 

into corps programs will make the most of the promise of community service. 

In conclusion, the Commission believes that by supporting innovative 

community service programs and providing training and technical assistance to 

states and communities to develop and expand service opportunities, it can assist 

in engaging millions of Americans in meaningful service to their communities. 

The Commission believes that the youth corps, both those it funds and others, 

can play a major part in fulfilling that dream. 
31 

Mr. VENTO. Before I proceed, let me just acknowledge the presence of John Doolittle. He came in just before I introduced Chief 

Robertson. We are pleased to see him back and serving on the 

Committee. I guess he is almost a new member. Anyway, we are 

pleased to have John back. 

Did you have any opening remarks, John? 

Finally, I want to introduce a new member of the Committee, 

Karan English from Arizona, who came in this morning. We are especially pleased to have Karan on the committee. I understand that 

Karan worked on a similar proposal in the State of Arizona for a 

conservation corps. 

Karan, welcome. Did you have any opening remarks this morning? If not, we are pleased to have you present. We will then turn 

to some questions this morning of our witnesses. 

Mr. Staufenberger, in your January 1993 report, which you referred to, and I think which has been made available to other 

members, although they may not have had a chance to look at it 

yet, you state that the Corps program is one of the most promising 

tools this country has for reaching young people and teaching skills 

and self-discipline, and you recommend a substantial expansion of 

the Youth Corps opportunities. What do you think would be the ideal and a real estimate of how 

many young people could be involved in youth service programs 

within a 5-year period? 

Mr. STAUFENBERGE~. We didn't actually get into the specific 

numbers for Youth Corps. We talked about 100,000 youth over the 

next 4 to 5 years could be involved in some aspect of national service. Now that could be Youth Corps, it could be national demonstration models, it could be in our higher education. But we did 

not deal specifically with the numbers in Youth Corps. 

Mr. VENTO. In other words, you are talking about 100,000 over 

5 years, or 20,000 a year. But you don't want to be tied down to 

that number, is that what I hear you saying? 

Mr. STAUFENBERGER. That is right. Yes, sir. 

Mr. VENTO. Looking at the types of applications, nearly half of 

your applications that went out for the Youth Corps went to conservation projects of State and local governments; is that correct? 

Mr. STAUFENBERGER. That is correct. 

Mr. VENTO. Can you give us any basis? Did you tilt towards that 

type or was it really about half the applications based on a conservation initiative or character? 

Mr. STAUFENBERGER. Well, actually, of our $63 million, $20 million went into the Youth Corps, so it is approximately a third. 

Mr. VENTO. No. I know that. But we are talking about in that 

portion of the Youth Corps about half of them were for conservation. So about $10 million. 

Mr. STAUFENBERGER. That is right. 

Mr. VENTO. Right. Mr. STAUFENBERGER. Yes. 

And I would say a lot of the Youth Corps are mixed Youth Corps, 

at least 50 percent are doing conservation work, probably of our 

100, and I think that number is more accurate, about 100 Youth 

Corps we are supporting, a great number more than 50 percent are 

doing conservation work. 
32 

Mr. VENTO. Yes. The point I am trying to make or trying to realize is, is this a good assignment or is this a good prospect for a 

youth conservation corps or other types of activities? 

Mr. STAUFENBERGER. We certainly believe so. Yes, sir. 

Mr. VENTO. It sounds like it. If you are awarding half of these 

and you are saying that over half actually are based on that, that 

this is a good fit in terms of the type of skills and the goals that 

you have, at least initially, for the program that you are managing. 

Is that correct? 

Mr. STAUFENBERGER. That is correct. And the quality of the proposals that came in, the quality was very high, and the cut-off 

number was driven largely by the funds we had available rather 

than the quality of the proposals. 

Mr. VENTO. We are just talking about State and local government applications. The national agencies-the Forest Service, Park 

Service, Fish and Wildlife Service, BLM, and so forth-are not able 

to apply to you for these particular grants. 

Mr. STAUFENBERGER. There is a provision for transfer and cooperative efforts in our legislation, but in the first year we have not 

utilized that. 

Mr. VENTO. Yes. Although, as I understand, some of the conservation projects of local or State applicants, nonprofits, may actually be on national lands. 

Mr. STAUFENBERGER. Yes, they are. A number of them are. 

Mr. VENTO. Can any of the members from the agencies or from 

the Forest Service speak to any impact, that you are aware of, of 

programs in the forests or the parks or in Fish and Wildlife Service 

from this program? Chief Robertson? 

Mr. ROBERTSON. I don't have any details on the specific projects 

from the national forests, but we do have an application. We have 

worked with the States of Oregon and Washington and the local 

community agencies in and around the Columbia Gorge, and so 

there was a cooperative project that we were a partner in for an 

application last year to the National Commission. It was not selected, but we worked hard on it and it has been resubmitted this 

year. I am hopeful that through working with our partners in the 

States of Oregon and Washington we can get directly involved in 

one of these projects with the National Commission. 

Mr. VENTO. Mr. Moffitt? 

Mr. MOFFITT. Mr. Chairman, to the best of our knowledge, we 

have had no projects on National Park Service lands. 

Mr. VENTO. Mr. Hartwig? 

Mr. HARTWIG. That is the same with us. There may, in fact, have 

been project work by a cooperating group on Fish and Wildlife 

Service lands. I am not directly aware of that at all. I am fairly 

certain there has not been any direct application or work by our 

staff or group. 

Mr. VENTO. One of the questions that was apparent to me as I 

was listening is just the capacity of these programs that you now 

operate, the three Federal agencies that are here-Forest Service, 

Park Service, and Fish and Wildlife Service-to grow; to expand to, 

for instance, accept a large number of participants for the programs that you might have within your agencies to, in fact, give 

a participant an opportunity to grow. 
33 

For instance, the Forest Service was at 14,000 in 1978. It is now 

at 1,200. That is less than one-tenth. The Park Service was at 

3,400 in 1977, or an earlier date. It is now at 700. So it is about 

one-fifth of where it was. The Fish and Wildlife Service during the 

1980's has apparently cut the program. I can't tell from the numbers that you have given me, Mr. Hartwig, but if you had a 12,000 

average and you are at 500 now, I guess it is safe to assume you 

are about 25 percent of where you were. So, I know you can go to 

1,000, 3,400 and 14,000. 

I don't know why, Dale. The Forest Service has been apparently 

much better at utilizing the program and growing the program. 

What is the capacity of a program like this in terms of offering 

youth employment conservation experience opportunities on Forest 

Service, Park Service, Fish and Wildlife Service areas? How quickly 

can this grow? How much can you practically utilize? 

We know you can use 14,000, but can you use significantly more 

than that, given the funds to pursue that? 

Mr. ROBERTSON. I think we could double that. I'm not so sure we 

could do it like this summer. 

Mr. VENTO. Double the 14,000? 

Mr. ROBERTSON. Yes. And I think over a 2-year period of time 

we could--

Mr. VENTO. On a phased basis, you think you could raise that 

to almost 30,000. · Mr. ROBERTSON. 25,000-30,000, I think. We got the potential. 

Mr. VENTO. Mr. Moffitt, do you have any insights for the Subcommittee? 

Mr. MOFFITT. Yes, sir. I see no reason why we could not reach 

levels that we were back in the 1970s with the proper funding. The 

reason the program is the size that it is, obviously, is because of 

the fact that the money is coming out of the operational budgets 

and it has to compete with gasoline bills and electric bills and everything else. So the only thing that is limiting our participation· in YCC is the funding. We think it is one of the more valuable programs we have in the Service, and there would be a lot more people-the healthier the parks' budgets are, the healthier the YCC 

program is. 

Mr. VENTO. Mr. Hartwig? 

Mr. HARTWIG. Mr. Chairman, I think we could safely increase 

ours if the funding were provided from current level of between 500 

and 600 enrollees to prior high levels of 2,000-2,500 enrollees. 

Mr. VENTO. Well, I think the concern is that as I look at some 

of the maintenance and operation, resource protection shortfalls in 

the Park Service in terms of just simply taking out exotic vegetation and so forth, much of this could be done. You wouldn't give 

me a number, Mr. Moffitt, but I would like you to talk about the 

practical phase or growth of that. If we are going to be making 

commitments or asking the Administration to make a commitment 

to a larger number for the Park Service or the Fish and Wildlife 

Service or other Federal agencies, I think we need some realistic 

extrapolations as to what would be possible. The worse thing would 

be to have funding allocated there and then say, ''Well, we can't 

physically do it." I think that Pete has been more precise in terms 

of what he thought could be done, but I think we would like to 
34 

have that answered for the record so I would have that information. If I am going to go advocate this with the Administration, I 

want to be able to have some pretty solid data on this. 

Mr. Doolittle, did you have a question or two of our witnesses? 

Mr. DOOLEY. This is more of a speculative than anything else. 

But with President Clinton's pronouncements last night about to 

engage in a National Service Corps, and Chief Robertson, when I 

see your figures, you are saying even with this program you are 

getting a $1.32 return on every dollar that you invest, and we certainly share the objectives of the chairman on that when we have 

this tremendous backlog in the Forest Service as well as the parks. I mean from a business perspective this sounds like a heck of a 

deal. 

I am just wondering, is it primarily driven then strictly by budget? Is the reason why this has not been utilized that the numbers 

have been decreasing? 

Mr. ROBERTSON. Yes. It's a function of the budget. Even though 

we were asked by the Appropriations Committee to take a minimum of a million dollars out of regular programs to do YCC, to accomplish those program activities, we spent last year 21⁄2 times 

that 21⁄2 million on YCC. But it is a cost-effective way. We know 

we are getting more than a dollar's worth of value back for every 

dollar spent. 

Mr. DOOLITTLE. And again this is looking to the future. If we do 

see the enactment of the National Service Corps, would you envision it being modeled similar to some of these programs that you 

are presently working with? 

Mr. ROBERTSON. Of course, I think a lot of the details are yet to 

be worked out on that by the Administration, but I would see YCC 

concept and ideas as an important part of that program. But now, 

I understand a lot of the national service program is for college students or students that could donate some time and service to repay 

loans for college education, and so we could still very much work 

those kind of people in, to a limited degree, into this program. 

Mr. DOOLITTLE. Just from an operational standpoint, do these 

programs with these young people and potentially with the people 

that might be involved in a National Service Corps, what is the attitude towards full-time employees? Is there a problem with concern about displacement there? What is the working relationship 

there? Are there ever any management problems if that is involved? 

Mr. ROBERTSON. I don't think that is a serious problem. I mean 

there may be specific instances. If we were taking somebody's job 

and doing it through YCC, that is a potential conflict which people 

get very concerned about, but I think we have managed that extremely well. So far, there has not been a major conflict with that. 

Mr. DOOLITTLE. I think that in the President's proposal just last 

night he was talking about programs which were, hopefully, to create 700,000 new jobs this summer. Are any of those going to be targeted to these type of programs as far as you know at this point, 

or is it too early to tell? 

Mr. ROBERTSON. I think it is fair to say it is too early to tell. We 

have provided a lot of input to the people that have been working 

on this program, but to my knowledge all the details have not been 
35 

sorted out yet, and so I am assuming that it will be a part of it 

because we provided some information into it. But there are still 

a lot of details, I believe, to be worked out on that. 

Mr. DOOLITTLE. Thank you. 

Mr. VENTO. Congresswoman English? 

STATEMENT OF HON. KARAN ENGLISH 

Ms. ENGLISH. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

I have had some firsthand, very positive experience with this 

program in the State of Arizona, and working through the process 

I have learned that one of the things that I think we need to overcome is the red tape from all levels of government to work out cooperative agreements, and not just from our level but from the 

local levels. I have found that cities and counties and the State and 

private organizations all want to participate in this kind of a program. We just haven't figured out an easy way to let them. 

And I think that I would like to hear from you, Mr. Robertson, 

and a!ly of the others, if you have ideas on how to streamline this 

efficiency so they can work together. I know they are eager to do 

that. The other thing I would like to hear from you about is the potential to use more than just the revenue aspect from the Federal perspective. In other words, we have so much to offer that perhaps 

other agencies don't, whether that is experience in people who have 

been out and can share or supervise a project, equipment, or a variety of other things other than dollars, and I think that has some 

potential that hasn't been tapped. Would you mind expressing an opinion on that? And I would like 

to hear from all of you, if it is possible for brief answers, on how 

we can combine both the efforts and what resources really are 

available. Mr. ROBERTSON. Well, I might start. I am in 100 percent agreement with you. We need to cut the red tape, and President Clinton 

says one of his priorities is reinventing government to get at some 

of these frustrations and hurdles that you are talking about. I can 

just tell you, you can count on the Forest Service to clear out all 

the hurdles that we possibly can do on that. That has just got to 

be a priority and we will do all we can. 

We have a lot of partnership arrangements working with local 

people, especially in Arizona. I think I had some Forest Service employees working with you on that project in Arizona. 

Ms. ENGLISH. Yes. 

Mr. ROBERTSON. There are no constraints on using contributions 

other than cash, like equipment or tools or that sort of thing, and 

I think that can be all cleared out. If we have problems, we need 

to just get on top of that and solve it. We don't need any additional 

authority to solve that problem. 

Ms. ENGLISH. Thank you. 

Mr. MOFFITT. I believe the most successful way to work with 

these programs other than what is being driven from a budget 

standpoint is through partnerships, and I think one of the real 

good partnership examples that we have is our work with the Student Conservation Association, who will be heard later this morning. I think that removes a lot of the bureaucratic hurdles, and we 
36 

are extremely pleased with the program that we have with them 

and would like to see that grow as well as the YCC program. 

Mr. HARTWIG. I would just like to underscore Chief Robertson's 

remarks. We are certainly in favor of making the program as 

straightforward and simple to operate as possible both for the user 

and for the cooperating organizations like the Fish and Wildlife 

Service. 

Youth work is very valuable. I think that to get back to an earlier question, Are we concerned about displacing a Federal worker 

in the process? I don't think we have much concern about that. We 

have plenty of activities to be done that we just have not been able 

to get to, and these folks would be able to help us quite a bit in 

that light. 

I would certainly say that we would be willing to work to try to 

streamline a program once we know a little bit more about it and 

which way it is going. I think some of the YCC involvement has 

given us good lessons that we can build on. We have had other programs in the past like the YACC-Young Adult Conservation 

Corps-which gave us a little bit more momentum in our ability to 

do things, as we had an older group of youth to work with and they 

were able to do activities with power tools and a little bit more serious maintenance, which is what we have been concentrating on 

in the last few years. 

The other advantage of that program was that it was a longer 

duration program, 9 months as opposed to just the summer 2 

months. And that is another suggestion I would say is looking at 

the possibility of something longer than 2 months. Many of our activities associated with maintenance are taking place in the off 

months when folks aren't there, and that is when we can use a lot 

of help at that time. 

Ms. ENGLISH. Thank you. 

Mr. STAUFENBERGER. On the red tape, I think the thing we are 

most proud of at the Commission is that we accomplish most of 

what we accomplished in our first years with less than 10 staff, 

and that was we had to keep the red tape down and the money had 

to get out quickly. We worked very closely with the States. There 

is cost sharing with most of the Corps we are funding, state money, 

in some cases private money. A number of the Corps are nonprofits, and so they have revenues coming from a variety of different sources. 

I think I would agree with you that the Federal Government in 

terms of military installations and other things offers a lot more 

than just money, and some of the proposed programs, we have 

three programs that were authorized last year in the Defense Authorization Act that would take advantage of excess defense installations. But so far we have been non-red-tape, we hope. 

Ms. ENGLISH. I am glad to hear that. Mr. Chairman, I have a follow-up question, if I might. 

There is an excellent opportunity for a military facility in northern Arizona to be used as some kind of a Corps facility, and I look 

forward to working on that project. But in working on it in the 

past, and of course, I was at a State level and the military didn't 

listen to me quite as much as they do now, I have found that there 

wasn't a lot of excitement to include women in some of these 
37 

projects. So I encourage at least the agencies that are sitting before 

us today to include women in those projects, whether they be from 

military facilities or not. 

Thank you. 

Mr. ROBERTSON. If I could just respond to that. I believe last 

year we have been running about 43-44 percent women, and we 

will work on getting that up to 50 percent. 

Ms. ENGLISH. That is good news, and we will be watching. Thank 

you. 

Mr. VENTO. Anyone else want to offer a response? 

Mr. MOFFITT. We have equally as good statistics. 

Mr. VENTO. We are pleased to welcome Congressman LaRocco, 

an experienced, seasoned member of the Subcommittee from Idaho. 

Congressman LaRocco? 

STATEMENT OF HON. LARRY LaROCCO 

Mr. LA Rocco. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. You become seasoned 

and experienced after one term on this Committee, I might add. 

You get veteran's status very early here. 

Mr. Chairman, earlier in the year Congressman Norm Dicks and 

I wrote to the Chief on January 6. We were concerned about new 

jobs in the forests with regard to restoration, rehabilitation, timber 

stand improvement, and thinning and pruning. And I would ask 

unanimous consent that I submit that letter and the Chiefs response for the record. I think it adds to this hearing. 

Mr. VENTO. Without objection, the letter will be added. 

[The correspondence follows:] 
· LARRY LAROCCO 

1ST OISTLIUCT. IDAHO 

COMMITIU ON INTffllOR 

COMMITTtf ON IAN«ING 

38 

(ongrrH of tbr llnitrb ,;tatri 

•ou•r of Brprr•rnt4tibr• 

a.-i,ington, 1K 20515 

January 6, 1992 

P. Dale Robert• on, Chief 

Forest Service 

U.S. Departn.nt of Agriculture 

14th and Independence, s.w. 

P.O. Box 96090 

Wa• hington, D.C. 20090·6090 

Dear Chief Robert• on: 

11 17 lONGWOtllJH Bl.Ill I 

WASHING JON. 0C JOSI!, 

1202122s-ee 11 

0~ 

J O•NO ltHSTIIUT 

IOIH . IOAio40U702 

(:toatJ•Mlll 

lot SO IIMIAll AYfNl 

~U. IOAMOIJBl 

t.J:Ofl 41• .UIJ 

f2t MAIN lfM(T 

uwi.TON. IONtO 1310 

f20lt74 ...... 

&01 S..:IIMMAvtNUf 

COIUII D"AUNl. JOAHO IJ iJOl!M7-2110 

During. the la• t Congr•••• l:>oth the Bou•• Interior C~ttee 

and the Interior Appropriation• Swx:~ttee ,ave aich att-tion to changing -g-t·of the .. tional ~re•t Sy•t-• .. c:auae thi• trend i • expected to continue, - hope you can provide • cae an• wer• to help u• malce informed deci• ion• during the 103rd 

Congr•••· 

A• you know, wh•-r forut _,_t dMulge• are propo• ed concern• are rai• ed about the coutinued availal>ility of fore• t related job•• Repre• entative• of the Pore• t Service have 

indicated the need and potential for 11a jobe in fore• t re• toration and timber • tand ~r~t (TSI) activitie•, 

prilllarily thinning and pruning. 

Additional joba in fore• t re• toration and TSI could help 

increa• e fore• t productivity through inten• ive management on areaa already roaded; diver• ify the economie• of rural 

communities; reduce the cost of fighting devastating forest 

fire•; and provide opportunitiea for di• placed timber workers. 

We hope you can provide estimates on jobs available in 

timber stand improvement and forest restoration. What we need is 

solid supporting data. Therefore, we would appreciate your help 

in answering the following questions: 

• Where do substantial opportunities exist to improve the 

vigor and quality of national forests through TSI and 

forest/watershed restoration? 

• What is the potential for creating jobs through such 

activities, especi ally for displaced timber workers in 

specific areas? 
39 

• What are the estimated costs of these TSI and restoration 

activities? 

• What are the estimated benefits of such activities in terms of: 

a) useful wood products. b) fish and wildlife habitat. 

cl forest health, -- resistance to insects, diseaae , wildfire. 

d) increased timber growth and improved long-term timber 

quality. e) the opportunity to save money on fighting fires. 

We appreciate your assistance in answsring these questions and look forward to your reaponsa. 

Sincerely, 

71/"N,_U Norm Dicks 

Member of Congress 
United State• 

;m_~.l)epartMnt of 

-.~qriculture 

Pore•t 

Service 

Honorable Larry Ldocco 

Houa• of hpnHnUtlYH 

Vubinaton, D,C. 20515 

Dear Coqre• aaan Lalocco: 

40 

Va• hlngton 

Off le• 

f. __ : 

Uth & Independence SV 

P.O . Boz 96090 

Va1hington, DC 20090-6090 

. (:Z.02t-;105-1600 

l.aply to : 340.0., .• . - c 

11~~~ : :j~,, I s j993 

1!lla you for :,our letter of January 6, nprdina the potential for 

aMiti-1 jeba in tf.aber aund f.aprcn,-nt and forut reatoration 

act1Yit1ea. 

I will reapond to your four queationa tn the order that you ubd ~ : 

1. !Ila rutoratloa of fonat ecoa,ac- that an t-tloaf.a& below 

tbair ,-cantlal 1a ••Hntial to the emir-ul -11-beina of die .. tion _. die _t.__ -trillutloa of natural naourcu to tba ec-ic viuliey 

of tba .. tlon. Tbar• are ai111ificant opportunitiH to invHt tn the 

ruterattoa of .. tl_l roruta and arualanda to •nbaac• the lona•ten 

prodlactlYtey of tMH aeHyac-. Opportunttlea alao axiet to aaaiat in t11e 

rue.ration of pri•ate 1-• throu,h teclml.cal and f1-lal aaaiat&Dc41. 

llhila forut aco1yac- an generally in good condition, tun 11 evidence 

ttf n.M b.> re•tor• foreat health in •- arau: 

a. In the South. the • outbem plne beetle and other peat• are 

daaa1ing forut1. Southam pine beat la 11 fnor•d by denH atand• that need 

to ba thinned. 

b. I n the Va• t , • ajor infe• tationa of bark katlaa occur in 

portiona of California, Idaho , Oregon , Washington, and Alaalta . lark 

beetle• alao continua to poae a threat to other fora• t • throughout th• 

1.ocky Notmtaln• • Infa• tatlon• of the veatem apruce budvora, Douglu•flr 

tueeock • oth. root di••••••. and dwarf aiatletoe alao contribute to the 

deterioraeion of ve•tern Fore•ta. Soa• of the•• infe•tationa are favored 

by danH stand• that need to be thinned. 

c . Rang• ecoay•te• s, • odifi ed after yeara of overaruing earlier 

thi• century, produce leaa uaeable forage than th• land 1• capable of 

producing for wildlife and liveatoc:k, and need to be re• torad. 

d. Riparian araaa in the arid weat are alov to naturally recover, 

and need to be reatored. 

e. Abandoned and inactive mine• throughout the country contribute 

toxic aubatancea into • tr•-• and river• , and action• are needed to prevent 

additional. d-age . 
41 

Honorable Larry LaRocco 

2 . The potential for creating jobs through fore• t restoration and ti• ber 

1tand improvement activitiea, primarily thinning and pruning, on Foreat 

Service land• 1• significant. Fore• t Service land• and progru• have the 

1-diate capabllity to offer project• that will provide amployaent and 

aHht c-.nitiH in helping thauelvH. Through temporary hiring and 

public contract•, joba can be created to aid people and coaaunlti••• and 

1.aprove the health of our Nation'• forest•. Direct hl'ring of aaall vork 

crew• at the hn&•r Di• trlct level on a temporary baala could begin quickly 

vitb project funding. 

3. Poreat health reatoration, maintenance, and aonitorlng action need 

can i,. accomplilhed within exiating authoritiH and policlH currently in 

effect. Additional funding, currently being determined, would be needed. 

We will provide you with eatiaated cost1 of tha .. activitie1 u aoon u 

they are available. 

4. Reatoring the health of our Nation' 1 for&1_t1 will have global benefit• by lncraa• lng the ability of our fore• tl to retain carbon: auataia the health 

of our foreata and gru• land•; provide aor• abundant clean air and water: 

provide aafe bre..Slng and tranait zone• for migratory wildlife; prnide raw 

-terial• for people'• u.e: cOnaerve the lartb•• biological diveralt:y; and 

-lc,p, ~natrate, and export envir-ntally - c.chnolo1la1. 

l.eatoratlon activitie• will have aany benefit• to P'oreat Service landa 

includin&: reduced fire hazard and the 11verity of firH that do occur; 

incr•-•d reaiatanc• of foreata to inaecta and di••u••: iaprovad vildlif• 

and f'ilh babltat1, 1ncludin& habltata for threatened, endanpr..S, - .. naitive ,rpeclH; l.aproved watanbada and vetl-.; l.aprned tiaber •tand 

condition•; reatoration and aaintenanc• of rangeland acoayateaa; accelerated 

preparation and offer of timber aalvage .. cerial ; and iapl••ntation ot project• to correct non-point 1ourca pollution to bring land& and f'acilitiH 

into coapllanc• with th• anvlronaental requir ... nta of the Clean Vater Act, 

and the National Foreat JtanageNnt Act. 

An increaaed eaphuia on investments in reatoration al• o pre• enta a aigniflcant 

opportunity to build a natural resource • anage• ent con• enaua &110ng tho•• 

interaated in the • anage• ent of the Nation'• foraate, and particularly the 

National Fora• ta . leatoration will reap econo• ic, 1plritual, educational and 

enviroraental benefit• • This i• particularly true of rural COIIIIUl'litiea that 

depend upon foreate for their econoaic and enviroiaental vitality. Iaproved 

and well aaintained forest ecosyate• s provide the baaia for rural coaaunitiea 

to expand and diversify their ec:ono• ic base-. 

Congreaa• an La.Rocco, thank you for your intereat in the forest reatoration 

activitie•. If we ••Y be of any further help , pl•••• let u• know . 

Sincerely . 
42 

Mr. VENTO. If the gentleman would yield to me briefly? 

Mr. LARocco. Yes, of course. 

Mr. VENTO. I note there was in the stimulus package last night 

reference to projects dealing with the Pacific Northwest and such 

rehabilitation and other projects. The gentleman maybe was going 

to mention that. 

Mr. LAROCCO. Well, I think it is worth noting that the President 

brought that up. In my meeting with the President last Saturday 

we talked about these jobs because there are two levels and that 

is what I wanted to visit with the Chief about this morning. 

It seems to me that there are opportunities for the Youth Conservation Corps idea and then true jobs for displaced timber workers. Sawyers and loggers who are on the ground and who can handle a big chain saw and who can operate machinery, those are not 

just minimum wage jobs but they are opportunities for the restoration of our lands and improvement of wildlife habitat and other 

things. 

So I just wanted to get into a dialogue with you, Chief, a little 

bit. Maybe we could break that out a little bit because I think you 

have identified in your letter, and I know you don't have instant 

recall of what I have before me, and I apologize for that. But we 

have corresponded on this issue and you have said that we can put 

people to work quickly, and so I would just like to have you respond to the types of jobs where we can have youth working and 

also where we can put displaced timber workers to work as well. 

Mr. ROBERTSON. Well, we have tremendous backlogs of project 

work that we can do. I think high on my priority is the backlog of 

maintenance that deals with recreation and trails and facilities 

throughout the National Forest; and second, dealing with some of 

these ecological restoration projects like riparian zones, watersheds, fish and wildlife habitat improvement; and then, finally, some investments in our future in terms of productivity-reforestation, timber stand improvement, those sorts of things. 

There's just almost unlimited opportunities out there to make investments in the future of the national forests. I believe that a lot 

of the people that you talk about, timber workers and others, are 

people that are ideally suited to do some of that work. And to the 

extent that we are involved in the stimulus package, and we are 

involved in it, we will take a hard look at unemployment in these 

communities with declining unemployment, or declining employment, I should say, where the Forest Service is located and put 

some priority on those areas. 

Mr. LARocco. Well, that is good to hear, Chief, because I think 

under the sustainable economies concept out in the West, I think 

that would be helpful to us. And again, these are not make-work 

jobs. Because I think on what we call the roaded front-the already 

logged areas and the roaded areas-I think there is much that can 

be done. As you know, on the Panhandle National Forest our main concerns are water quality, and where we have severe problems in just 

getting the cut out on the Clearwater Forest, and you are moving 

aggressively on that just to put your team together out there. But 

I think on the Clearwater, as well, that we can put some people 
43 

to work out there quickly, as you say, and hopefully we can even 

involve this Youth Conservation Corps. 

Just to read to you what the Chief said: 

The potential for creating jobs through forest restoration and timber stand improvement activities, primarily thinning and pruning, on Forest Service lands is significant. Forest Service lands and programs have the immediate capability to offer 

projects that will provide employment and assist communities in helping themselves. 

So I think we have addressed this, and there is much to be done 

out there to correct some of the practices of the past. And the other 

thing is our drought is ending in the West, but this will help I 

think with regard to potential forest fires if we can get in and get 

some of that fuel off. 

So that is all I have, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate the opportunity 

to enter into dialogue with the Chief. Thank you. 

Mr. VENTO. I am pleased to recognize Congressman Williams, 

who is a long-time advocate of youth service programs. After our 

recent colleague Congressman Seiberling delivered the bill to the 

White House only to have it unsigned or at least vetoed, he picked 

up and was able to guide through the legislative process on the 

House side the program that now we are overseeing partly today. 

Congressman Williams? 

STATEMENT OF HON. PAT WILLIAMS 

Mr. WILLIAMS of Montana. Well, you are very kind to recognize 

that, Mr. Chairman, and I am appreciative of it. As long as we are 

in that vein, let me say that the stumbling block for a majority, I 

think, in the Congress with regard to developing an American Conservation Corps or Youth Conservation Corps was this matter, a 

very important matter, of displacing permanent workers, others 

who could do these jobs on a permanent basis, and my role, which 

the chairman has kindly elaborated, was to try to adopt language 

which would prohibit substitution of existing work. The way I did 

that was go back to the old CETA prohibitions on substitution, and 

rounding off some of the edges we adopted those. 

I mention that not to talk about my own role in this, but to say 

that we could have an enormous expansion of these programs without even brushing up against the edges of work substitution. The 

hard fact is, in my judgment, that America slept the last half of 

the 1970's, all of the 1980's, and in this first third of the 1990's 

with regard to the work that needs to be done on the public lands. 

We went into amnesia about it. We forgot about it. 

There is, I will say again, a significant amount of work to be 

done throughout this country. Let me just delineate a few things 

out our way in Idaho, and my colleague is here, in the southwest. 

And, in Montana there are thousands of miles of trails to be 

cleared. There are new trails to be built, both chip trails and asphalt trails that are needed by the handicapped in America because they too deserve to get up and see and experience what many 

of the rest of us can more easily see and experience. There is brush 

to be cleared. There is fence to be built. There are bridges to be 

repaired and constructed. There are fires to be fought. There are 

logged areas to be reseeded. There are wildlife habitat areas to be 

reclaimed. Lookout towers to be refurbished. And the list goes on. 
44 

Just in my State of Montana, we could quadruple the work force 

of young people out on the land and only then begin to dent the 

backlog of need which is now two decades old. And if I am not incorrect, my sense this morning of the President's speech is that 

America feels that we are about to step across the threshold, beginning to do the unfinished work that needs to be done in this country with regard to public places, and public systems such as water 

and sewer and highway and bridges. 

I encourage as best I can, Mr. Chairman, these good gentlemen 

that are before us-and it is always nice to see all of you-to be 

as aggressive as you can be within the various constraints in trying 

to assist the White House and to persuade the Congress to get to 

work on what is a genuine backlog of need in this country, and also 

to remind us that a lot of young people in this country are in a lot 

of trouble and we can combine the need with the trouble they are 

in and get both birds with the same stone here. 

So I think that the American Conservation Corps and the Youth 

Service Corps are marvelous ideas. I am glad they are in law. Perhaps we need to make some amendments to it, but most of all we 

need to aggressively and vigorously pursue the backlog of work 

that needs to be done and bring on thousands of more young people 

to do it. 

And, Mr. Chairman, I appreciate your leadership on this issue. 

Mr. VENTO. I look forward to working with the gentleman on 

this. If the gentleman would just yield briefly, I think the law is 

in place. I think what we do need to do is to convince the Administration to prevent the good intentions from falling between the 

cracks in terms of what needs to be done here, and to put some 

money into it. 

I have additional questions. I want to recognize the new member 

from Utah, but first I want to recognize my colleague from Tennessee, Congressman Jimmy Duncan. 

Congressman Duncan? 

STATEMENT OF HON. JOHN J. DUNCAN, JR. 

Mr. DUNCAN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I did not get to hear the 

testimony, so possibly some of this was covered. But there presently is in effect a Youth Conservation Corps program that, I read 

in Chief Robertson's testimony, involved 1,200 young people, down 

from an all-time high of 14,000 and some participants. I have been 

supplied by staff some briefing paper or material which says that 

in the 98th and 99th Congresses there was apparently a pretty controversial bill introduced by Congressman Seiberling of Ohio which 

would have created an American Conservation Corps. Now, this hearing today is supposed to be about an American 

Conservation Corps. Since Congressman Seiberling's bill was in the 

98th and 99th Congresses and became very controversial, in fact 

the vote on it in the 99th Congress was 193 to 191 with 43 Democrats joining the opposition, what was the difference between the 

American Conservation Corps as envisioned then and the Youth 

Conservation Corps? Did the American Conservation Corps involve 

adults as well? What was the difference? 

Mr. ROBERTSON. Well, the basic provisions of the American Conservation Corps was unemployed people age 15 to 25, and YCC is 
45 

15 to 18. It would have gotten people from 18 to 25, so an additional group of people. YCC is limited to 90 days per enrollee in 

the summer and this would have been a year-round program and 

an enrollee could have stayed in the program for up to 22 months. 

It targeted a little different group of people, people with a much 

longer duration. 

Mr. DUNCAN. In your testimony it says the Forest Service has 

participated in the Youth Conservation Corps camps program for 

22 years. Are there actual camps someplace, or do they just work 

alongside of Forest Service personnel? 

Mr. ROBERTSON. It is both. Originally, we had 64 residential 

camps that deal with many of the YCCs, but basically those camps 

now have either deteriorated or been passed on to other kinds of 

programs. So we only have one residential camp now and the rest 

of them are non-residential, you know, 4, 5, 6, or 7 YCC enrollees 

working on ranger 'districts, non-residential. 

Mr. DUNCAN. Have they been passed on, you say, like to the Job 

Corps or other agencies? 

Mr. ROBERTSON. Other agencies. If the facilities were still in good 

conditions, a lot of them have passed to State agencies that run 

various kinds of programs. So we have limited opportunity right 

now, probably 10 to 15 residential sites that we could use now with 

minimum up-front money. The rest would be, we got something 

like over 600 ranger districts, district rangers scattered throughout 

the United States and that is a very low-cost, highly effective way 

of just having YCC enrollees working with our rangers out there 

on the ground in the local community. 

Mr. DUNCAN. Congressman Seiberling's original bill in the mid1980's called for authorization of $225 million for this program. If 

the current YCC program was expanded from its 1,200 point where 

it is now to its all-time high of, say, 14,000 or 15,000, how much 

would something like that cost? 

Mr. ROBERTSON. Well, in 1978 when we had 14,000, our budget, 

I believe, was $30 million. You know you have 12 years inflation, 

so you are probably looking at somewhere around $40 million or so 

for 14,000 now. 

Mr. DUNCAN. And at that time that it was at that level was there 

a great demand? In other words, did you have any trouble filling 

those slots, or at the 14,000 or 15,000 were you turning people 

away? What was the situation? 

Mr. ROBERTSON. Yes. We could have hired more YCCs even at 

the 14,000 level. 

Mr. DUNCAN. How many more probably? Rough guess. 

Mr. ROBERTSON. Well, I answered a question earlier that probably over a 2-to 3-year period of time I think we could double that 

14,000 if we went all out, and the youth would be out there. So for 

25,000 or 30,000. But it would take us 2 to 3 years to build up to 

that level. 

Mr. DUNCAN. When you say all that, you mean to go into advertising and recruiting and all that sort of thing? 

Mr. ROBERTSON. No. Recruiting is not a big problem. We work 

with the local school districts. Most are teenagers, so we work 

heavily with the local school districts and local agencies. It has not 

been a problem on recruiting. 
46 

Mr. DUNCAN. One more question. I know it is very difficult now 

to get a job with the National Park Service and the Forest Service 

and other Federal agencies. Now, how many applicants do you 

have each year for full-time professional positions now as opposed 

to how many openings occur each year? 

Mr. ROBERTSON. Oh, it is probably 75 or 80 to 1, I would guess. 

We get lots of applications that we just don't have jobs for. The demand of people who would very much like to have an exciting career in natural resource management, whether it is Park Service, 

Forest Service or Fish and Wildlife Service, is much greater than 

the jobs available. You are looking at many, many fold. 

Mr. VENTO. Let me interject because I want to recognize Representative Shepherd before we go to vote. Mr. DUNCAN. Okay. Thank you very much. Mr. VENTO. Thank you, John. 

We are pleased to welcome to the Committee Karen Shepherd 

from Salt Lake City, Utah, a new Member and one that is very interested in the topics before the Committee as her State is so greatly affected by them. 

Welcome, Karen. 

STATEMENT OF HON. KAREN SHEPHERD 

Ms. SHEPHERD. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I do come 

from an area that is greatly affected, and I am also a recently 

emancipated parent of teenagers. I suppose as an overall statement 

what I would like to say is that I can't think of anything the young 

people of America need more today than an opportunity to serve in 

a way that is meaningful and teaches them something and puts 

them in touch with the land and their environment. I just think 

it is a profound need of the young people today, and you are in a 

perfect position to do that and I hope that your program grows. 

I have been, in my history, the director of social services programs in our county of Salt Lake, and I worked with a lot of nonprofit organizations like the YWCA, the Boys Clubs, the Girls 

Clubs, the juvenile court system, family counseling centers, all of 

whom-and the list goes on and on-all of whom are always looking for ways to plug the young people that they work with into activities which are truly enlarging for them. And I would like to 

hear, just very quickly because we have got about 1 second, if you 

have done that. I suspect you haven't had enough money to do 

that. But if that is a possibility that you could work with all these 

other agencies. 

Mr. ROBERTSON. The answer to that is yes. We do a lot of that, 

but I think as you point out we can do a lot more. We are in agreement. You know, this thing has got to be a partnership effort. It has 

got to be with the State and local communities, the school districts, 

and the Federal agencies working together, and that is the philosophy of the Forest Service. It is how to put this together in a partnership arrangement where everybody is involved. In the case of 

the Forest Service, we are right with you on your philosophy. 

Ms. SHEPHERD. Count on us to help you in Utah. 

Mr. VENTO. Any further questions? 

Ms. SHEPHERD. No. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 
47 

Mr. VENTO. There is time. I mean I can walk quick. I don't know 

about you. 

Ms. SHEPHERD. Yes. I am going to run. 

Mr. VENTO. I might just build on that last idea. I think the real 

problem today that I see is that there are so few opportunities for 

young people, or even for others that are displaced, to find a niche 

or a way to gain insights in the world of work or what it is to work 

in natural resource areas. We have, I think, almost a natural 

bridge in terms the type of work that takes place here to, gradually 

bring individuals in and at least get an insight into what is happening, especially since the urbanization of the West and the urbanization basically where individuals don't have those insights 

that they might have had if they weren't living in a more rural, 

farming or ranching type of environment. 

This whole concept of apprenticeship and of trying to reach out 

and bring people into the natural resource setting and into the 

world of work is enormously enhanced by the type of programs we 

are talking about here. 

One of the problems is that the American Conservation Corps 

didn't become controversial until it was vetoed. It had passed in 

the Congress before that by 275 or 280 to 75. Then after it was vetoed there was an objective to support the President's veto on the 

part of those that felt so inclined. We didn't think it was controversial when it had been initially passed. There is always the tension 

between dollars. That occurs within the budget. 

It seems clear now that the path that is being set by the Administration is a different path, the policy path with regard to national 

service with regard to these programs. I think there is a tremendous capability of these programs to dovetail with the goals that 

are being enunciated and the programs that are being planned. 

I want to come back. I want to hold this panel because I have 

some specific questions on the program for you. We will stand in 

recess and I will return momentarily. 

[Recess.] 

Mr. VENTO. The Committee will resume its sitting. 

We are apparently going to be interrupted by a series of votes, 

so it is important that we move along. I won't take as much time 

as I would like to question some of the witnesses, so we can move 

things along and won't take as much time. 

If you have a pencil in your hand and you know something that 

you want to add about these particular issues, I think that first of 

the issues is displacement. Congressman Williams raised that 

question. The second is the role of volunteer programs that may 

offset the need for this particular program. You might want to comment about the volunteer programs in your agencies. The third is, 

and I guess this may be related to the question that Chief Robertson raised, the role of nonprofits. He mentioned the National Forest Foundation. I would like to know the magnitude of that involvement in dollars and/or "in lieu" type of services. 

You did mention, Chief Robertson, the issue of a residential yearround type of presence versus and/or seasonal residential, and I 

think we need to know if we have year-round capacities. The Young 

Adult Conservation Corps had an age differential. That was an im-
48 

portant factor, and I would like to get your reactions, if any, to 

that. 

Then finally, and this is related to the age differential issue, national service programs anticipate sort of a work for education; that 

is, you get the benefit and so you would have people that might 

come to you that have different skills. I mean actually using some 

of the skills. I think that Mr. Hartwig implied working with power 

tools, but perhaps if someone came from other than a technical college, they might have different skills. That was just something I 

wanted to know. If you haven't got a response to some of those, you 

may want to elaborate in writing. I thought maybe we could just 

get the highlights and then move to the next panel in terms of trying to conclude our efforts, at least in a formal hearing, today. 

Let's start with Mr. Staufenberger. 

Mr. STAUFENBERGER. On the displacement issue, our grants and 

our legislation requires consulting with local labor organizations. 

Mr. VENTO. You have the CETA language in your legislation? 

Mr. STAUFENBERGER. Yes, it's pretty much. Yes. 

Mr. VENTO. Congressman Williams'. So that guides your granting. 

Mr. STAUFENBERGER. I don't know, I would have to ask the general counsel, but I don't think we have had any complaints about 

this issue. So I am assuming we are not having a displacement 

problem. 

Mr. VENTO. Well, you are early in the cycle yet, so that might 

be a factor. 

Mr. STAUFENBERGER. Yes. In terms of the volunteer efforts, I 

think we view the stipended and service as complementing the volunteers. We don't see them as being exclusive of one replacing the 

other. So I don't see that as a major issue with our Subtitle C. 

On the role of the nonprofits, a number of the Corps that we are 

funding directly or indirectly are nonprofit organizations, and I 

think that partnership of States, nonprofits and the Feds is working very, very well. We have not set up this large Federal bureaucracy. We are funding programs through the States and not directly 

operating these programs. 

A number of the programs we are funding are residential. Certainly not the majority of them, but a number. In terms of the age, 

the only age change that we have had in our legislation has been 

lowering the summer age by one year from 15 to age 14. But the 

16 to 25 age for the year-round seems a reasonable target for us 

at this point. 

And mixing folks with different skill levels seems to be working 

very, very well. A number of our Corps have college kids working 

side-by-side with high school dropouts, so you have folks with different skills and that seems to be working well. When we have 

talked to the different Corps about this, they seem to think that 

both groups gain. The college kids gain something from working 

side-by-side with the non-high school graduates, and the high 

school graduates obviously gain something. 

There is a provision in the legislation that all the Corps have to 

provide high school equivalency and high school training or education for those that don't have a high school diploma, so I think 

that is working. 
49 

Finally, most of the Corps I think that we are funding at this 

point are providing some post-service educational training benefits 

so that the students are earning something for education and training similar to what the President was talking about. 

Mr. VENTO. That is very helpful. The Federal agencies are not 

able to participate in the National & Community Service Act. Are 

you concerned about the competition if the land management agencies were involved? Would that siphon away resources? Can you 

speak to that issue? 

Mr. STAUFENBERGER. No, I don't think so. I think the demand is 

high for both the services and for the participants who want to provide those services. And a number of our programs, the programs 

we are funding are doing work on park land and have relationships 

with the national parks and the forests. 

Mr. VENTO. Mr. Hartwig, I gave you that sort of list, and I think 

that Mr. Staufenberger did a good job of summarizing his answers. 

Maybe you don't have an answer to each one of my questions, and 

I understand that, at this time. So, could you proceed? 

Mr. HARTWIG. Let me see if I can wander down from the list that 

you gave us to discuss at this time. 

Displacement of full-time employees, I don't see that as a major 

problem as long as there is funding commensurate with the number of folks that are going to be active in any future program. Our 

laundry list of activities of things that we have not been able to get 

to for various funding reasons over the years is quite lengthy, and 

we are not concerned at this level of activity that we are going to 

face that FTE use conflict in employment. 

I would say conflict between youth groups and volunteers, I don't 

see that as a problem. Either our volunteers are going to be there 

willing to give their time and effort for activities, some of which 

may not be the same types of activities that we would involve these 

groups in and some of which would be similar activities. There is 

always enough work to go around that we are still going to be in 

need of volunteer efforts. 

As far as nonprofits, like most of the other Federal agencies that 

manage land, we do have a very good relationship with many nonprofits, both very local and national in scope, through our National 

Fish and Wildlife Foundation, there is an additional relationship 

there, and a North American waterfowl management group that is 

multi-nation oriented. We get quite a few opportunities to coordinate in both acquisition and management of lands, and in some 

minor construction activities. 

Residential versus seasonal, I think you had earlier heard figures 

about the cost-benefit ratios. Just as a benchmark, our cost-benefit 

ratio doubled from about a return of 75 cents on a dollar when we 

had residential camps to about $1.50-$1.60 for every dollar with 

local area hired youth. That is something to think about. I don't 

have an answer to that, but it is at least something to factor in. 

Mr. VENTO. Do you have facilities that you were able to utilize? 

Mr. HARTWIG. We do not have very many facilities today. We are 

basically operating out of a "come to work during the day and go 

home at night" basis, and that is one of the contributing factors to 

the cost-benefit ratio being as large as it is. 
50 

Mr. VENTO. No. I understand that. And that is year round versus 

seasonal? 

Mr. HARTWIG. Year-round. Certainly, we would welcome yearround help of a similar nature to what we have had just in the 

summer months. As I had mentioned earlier, I believe that off-sea- son in many respects is more beneficial to us than during the summer season when we have many visitors there. As far as the age differential, I think a wider age group would 

certainly give us additional benefit. There are some activities, as 

mentioned before, that can be done by folks of a larger age bracket. 

Also, I think as you had indicated, when we get a larger age bracket we are dealing with folks that have had different types of history 

in their background. They have learned different trades or skills 

that could be applied on the refuge system. 

Mr. VENTO. And the national service is complementary in that it 

deals with other skills. I think you covered that. Incidentally, I 

might add, and you may want to expand on this, Mr. Hartwig, I 

think the concern about displacement, whether they are volunteer 

programs which are initiated and/or the YCC or the Youth Adult 

Conservation Corps or the ACC, really relate to a period of time 

when land management agencies in the 198Os were experiencing a 

cutback in terms of full-time equivalents. There is a significant cutback in the Forest Service and the Park Service. I don't know about 

the Fish and Wildlife Service. I don't think the BLM experienced 

quite the same cutback. 

I think that was one of the major bases of concern at that time, 

so that may not be as acute right now. 

Mr. HARTWIG. I can understand that certainly, and we did face 

the same cutbacks. I think we are at a fairly substantial lower 

level, and hopefully there is no way but up, and so help from wherever, I think, would b~ 

Mr. VENTO. That is a concern, anyway, that they not use a program of this nature, a training program, an education program, to 

in fact displace professionals in whatever land management agency. 

Mr. Moffitt. 

Mr. MOFFITT. Mr. Chairman, I think my comments would be 

very similar to Mr. Hartwig's, and for the sake of time I won't go 

back through it. 

I would like to point out that the National Park Service has an 

extremely large contingent of volunteers, and I see no conflict at 

all that would occur with an expansion of YCC or Public Service 

Corps or anything of that nature just based upon the type of work 

that our volunteers are doing. I think we have approximately 

60,000 in the Park System right now. 

Nonprofits do play a significant role in our programs now, and 

I don't see that there would necessarily be any conflict. The National Park Foundation this year is spending over a million dollars 

for our education programs to youth, and we could use ten times 

that amount of money in expansion of that program, a very good 

program. 

Mr. VENTO. In terms of the foundations, in terms of the nonprofits that are participating with you, you have a nonprofit counterpart in the Park Service that helps with such programs, if you 
51 

had a dollar amount that you knew they were actually contributing 

in the past or projected to do so in the future-a dollar amount 

that they are contributing to any of the youth programs. For instance, the Forest Service implied that the National Forest Foundation was helping fund some programs along these lines. 

Mr. MOFFI'IT. We don't have any funding like YCC programs of 

that nature, no, sir. 

Mr. VENTO. That come from foundations. 

Mr. MOFFITT. No, sir. 

Mr. VENTO. Okay. 

And, Mr. Hartwig, I trust you do not. 

Mr. HARTWIG. Not that I'm aware of, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. VENTO. Okay. Well, if you become aware of it, perhaps you 

would share that with the subcommittee. 

Mr. Robertson. 

Mr. ROBERTSON. Mr. Chairman, I don't think we have had a 

problem, or a displacement problem, especially at the level our program is now, and if additional funding came along for the YCC I 

do not foresee a problem. 

You know, I envision these various programs reinforcing each 

other. We have a senior citizens program, 5,500 senior citizens 

working for us; we have 109,000 volunteers; and even the national 

service programs, which might be college students, come back to 

work during the summer. I see putting these all together and using 

senior citizens--

Mr. VENTO. Is that the Green Thumb Program that you are referring to? 

Mr. ROBERTSON. No. The senior citizens program-and I think 

the Forest Service is the only one in Government that has thatbut it is a Department of Labor program to employ senior citizens, 

and they are integrated right in with our work force. We have 

about 5,500 of them. It is a regular program for employment of senior citizens. 

I see combining senior citizens, college students that come to 

work for us in the summer, use them as staff people to help staff 

these YCC camps, and just kind of putting that all together and 

trying to minimize the cost of Federal employees, regular Federal 

employees, in running these camps. 

So we don't have a conflict. We have got a potential here of putting it all together, and in our experience in working with the 5,500 

senior citizens that work for the Forest Service, they are most anxious to work with youth. 

As far as age differential, in my view we need to expand beyond 

18 years old. I mean there is another group of people from age 18 

to 23, or 25, or whatever you want as an upper limit, that is just 

missing out right now. We badly need to have programs that would 

give us that additional flexibility. 

In terms of the National Forest Foundation, this is a brand new 

foundation. The board of directors were just appointed in the last 

6 months. I serve as a nonvoting member of the board of directors. 

At our first board of directors meeting, we had a good discussion 

with them about what are some productive things the foundation 

could do to work with the Forest Service. Their number one priority is, How can we establish this partnership between the youth of 
52 

the Nation and the national forests, and especially dealing with the 

youth-at-risk group, people who do not have much of a future unless something happens to them to turn around their life. 

The National Forest Foundation is actually out raising funds 

right now. They are pilot testing three camps this summer. Their 

goal is to raise $1 million to help finance that and recruit youth 

at risk, and then give them an experience, and see if we can't turn 

around some lives of young people who are at risk. They very much 

want to and set in place a tracking system to see how we do. Can 

we turn some of these youth that are at risk and do not have much 

of a future into productive citizens that have a job? 

So they have a plan to track that and to see how good we are, 

and can we do that. That is their objective, and I think it is a worthy objective. AB somebody said, you know, you get two things done 

at one time: You turn lives of youth around, and you get a lot of 

very productive work done that needs to be done. 

I'm really excited about that, and we need to do some more pilot 

testing. I'm a firm believer in pilot testing, monitoring things, evaluating, making adjustments, and I would like to see us get on that 

road to do that, and the National Forest Foundation's purpose is 

to help us do some early pilot testing. 

Mr. VENTO. So what is the magnitude of that program in terms 

of cost? 

Mr. ROBERTSON. About $1.2 million, of which they are going to 

raise $1 million from fundraising. 

Now another idea I really like is partnerships. You know where 

I'm at: If you can't get partnerships, maybe you shouldn't do it. We 

have a Challenge Cost Share program, getting people to help us do 

conservation work on the National Forests. I think the Federal 

Government ought to throw out the challenge to State and local 

government, private sector, local communities, and even individual 

Americans. You can sponsor a youth with a $5,000 scholarship or 

a half of a scholarship to send a youth to one of these camps. 

I would like to see us think about this Challenge Cost Share. You 

may want to call it something else. But challenge the rest of the 

American people to join us in doing something about the youth of 

the Nation getting conservation work done on the public lands. It's 

a winner, and we need to do that. 

Mr. VENTO. Well, I appreciate all of your responses. I think I 

could add other questions about the nature of the apprenticeship 

idea within the land management agencies. This isn't just an experience for the young adults that are involved but really a first step 

in terms of an apprenticeship type of work where they end up actually working for the land management agencies or at least in some 

other conservation or environmental and/or research-based industry or even in the private sector. Looking at it in that particular 

sense, I think it would be important. 

I also think it is true, based on the responses, that most of you 

interpret the mission or the charter either in the organic laws or 

in the policies that have been practiced as really having an educational responsibility to reach out to young adults and to the population generally in terms of its role. I think this is a very important aspect, and it is interesting to me that it appears that the De-
53 

partment of Agriculture, of the land management agencies, has 

been most aggressive in terms of this responsibility. 

It may be because of reinforcement through the Department of 

Labor funds with senior citizens, as you have indicated, or more 

generous funding, or just a priority within the Department of Agriculture or the Forest Service for that, but it is evident to me. Now 

others have significant volunteer programs. It may just be that you 

have more work that lends itself to that. 

These are the types of questions from which I am trying to arrive 

at a conclusion and to get the data on it at this hearing today. So 

if you want to add something to the record, I would certainly invite 

you to do so. It would be something that I would certainly look at, 

and we need to do it in a prompt manner in order for it to have 

an impact on the type of policy that is being crafted with regard 

to the National Service Program. I know you may be doing it with 

the Administration, but I hope you will keep us apprised of that, 

and if there is a need to modify or change the law, we would be 

most interested in looking at that to facilitate this type of program. 

I have held you here long enough today, so I would just thank 

you for your responsiveness and your patience with the Subcommittee this morning and move on to the other panelists. Thank you all 

very much. 

Mr. MOFFITI. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. VENTO. We have a significant number of witnesses. Let me 

invite Joanna Lennon, director of the East Bay Conservation 

Corps, to join the second panel to testify at this time as she has 

a conflict in her schedule. We will also ask the second panel to 

come forward to make brief presentations and respond to questions 

that we may have: Mr. William Bailey, the past president of Chapter 113 of the National Association of Civilian Conservation Corps 

Alumni; Ms. Stephanie Alexander, a student at Ballou Senior High 

School, in Washington, D.C.; and Ms. Jessica Trott, a Corps member from the Maryland Conservation Corps. 

Let me start with William Bailey, who is the past president of 

the Civilian Conservation Corps Alumni. 

Mr. Bailey, I believe I have your testimony before me. It has 

been affixed to a brochure talking about Roosevelt's tree army. Is 

that yours? 

Mr. BAILEY. Yes. 

Mr. VENTO. Welcome to the committee, and thank you for your 

effort to prepare a statement for us. 

PANEL CONSISTING OF WILLIAM A. BAILEY, PAST PRESIDENT, 

MARYLAND CHAPTER 113, NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF CIVILIAN CONSERVATION CORPS ALUMNI; STEPHANIE ALEXANDER, STUDENT, BALLOU HIGH SCHOOL, WASHINGTON, 

D.C.; JESSICA TROTT, CORPS MEMBER, MARYLAND CONSERVATION CORPS; AND JOANNA LENNON, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, EAST BAY CONSERVATION CORPS, OAKLAND, CALIFORNIA 

STATEMENT OF WILLIAM A. BAILEY 

Mr. BAILEY. Thank you for inviting me. 
54 

I would like to correct one thing. I am just chapter president for 

Maryland. Our national president is in our national organization in 

St. Louis. Lloyd Mielke is our national president, and there is a letter in the back of the statement there from him. 

Mr. VENTO. Without objection, it will all be made part of the 

record. 

I introduced you properly when I called you and then read it 

wrong when I introduced you. 

Mr. BAILEY. Yes. 

I would like to start with saying I was raised on a farm in Nebraska during a drought period in the Depression. When I finished 

high school, my father was on the WPA, so I qualified to be enrolled in the CCC. I served at Weeping Water, Nebraska, in a Soil 

Conservation Service camp. In there, we planted trees and did a lot 

of strip farming layouts and things like that for soil conservation. 

When I left the CCC, I went in the Marine Corps, and then after 

World War II I got my degree in agricultural engineering and 

worked for the Department of Agriculture. I retired from Agriculture in 1985. Now I have my own consulting business in that 

area. I am telling you about this because life in the CCC affected 

all my life, and I'm sure it has for the other members also. 

In the Cs, I went in there with no money, just a pair of overalls 

I was wearing, and they issued us clothes, gave us a medical exam, 

the first one I ever had in my life, and also a smallpox vaccination. 

So they started me out keeping me healthy. We lived in barracks, 

and we had about 200 people to the camp, about 50 of us in each 

barracks. So it was a good life for an 18-year-old. 

We worked on farms for erosion control, and we planted trees 

along gullies to hold the soil, and then we surveyed and worked out 

the strip farming where we would have a strip of grass and then 

a strip of corn or wheat, and the grass slowed down the water flow 

and saved the soil and the water that came in. They do the same 

thing today by putting ditches around these same contours, and 

then they can farm across them. 

Since I came from a farm, most of the crews at that time had 

horses and wagons. Each of the farmers would furnish us a team 

of horses and wagons so we could carry the fence posts and things 

like that, and since I came from a farm I was designated as our 

driver, and quite often I got a job working on other crews also as 

a driver. 

Later on, I was assigned to the motor pool to help the caretaker 

of the trucks. I had never driven a car, so the first thing I had to 

do was learn how to drive so I could park the trucks and gas them 

up and things like that. 

When we came in at night, we had some free time after supper, 

and we had an education program. I took typing and photography 

classes. I still use both of these. The typing came in handy as I was 

typing up this report on my word processor. 

The thing that I really learned in the Cs was my own worth. 

They taught us that we could do things; we could see what we accomplished. I got $8 a month myself, but $22 went to my folks, so 

they could buy flour and sugar so they could eat. 

To start new camps, if it is decided to do that, the military has 

a lot of surplus buildings, prefab buildings. Some they have in their 
55 

camps already, prefabs, that could be disassembled and moved to 

the Forest Service or whatever. They also have trucks and construction equipment, field kitchens, cots, ~nd clothes, and so forth. 

So I am thinking it could be run very much like the old Civilian 

Conservation Corps that we were in. The transfer of this equipment-I'm not sure how the cost would 

be handled, but that should be less than starting out fresh and getting contracts to build camps. The boys themselves could build the 

camps and have temporary quarters, maybe even tents. 

There is a lot that I could say about the Corps and about what 

it has done for us that were in there, but I think I'll stop there. 

If there are any questions, I would be glad to answer them. 

We are having a national reunion in the University of Maryland 

in July where we will have former members from all over the country. I would like to invite any of you to come out there to talk to 

these people, because I'm sure they would like to talk to you. Nearly all of them want to see another organization similar to the CCC 

to help the young men and women to do something useful. 

[Prepared statement of Mr. Bailey follows:] 
56 

STATEMENT 

MADE ON 

FEBRUARY 18, 1993 

BEFORE THE 

SUBCOMMITTEE ON NATIONAL PARKS, 

FORESTS AND PUBLIC LANDS 

COMMITTEE ON NATURAL RESOURCES 

812 HOUSE ANNEX ONE 

WASHINGTON, DC 20515 

PHONE 202/226-7736 

BY 

WILLIAM A BAILEY 

REPRESENTING 

THE 

NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF CCC(CIVILIAN CONSERVATION CORPS) ALUMNI 

PO BOX 16429-16 HANCOCK AVENUE 

JEFFERSON BARRACKS 

ST LOUIS, MO 63125-0429 

PHONE 314/487-8666, FAX 314/487-9488 

MR LLOYD L. MIELKE, PRESIDENT 

4125 NW HAWTHORNE CIRCLE 

KANSAS CITY, MO 64116 

816/452-8985 

CONTACT: WA BAILEY 

6910 FURMAN PARKWAY 

RIVERDALE, MD 20737-3017 

301/459-1607 
57 

Contact: Wm A"Bill" Bailey 

6910 Furman Pkwy 

Riverdale, Md 20737 

Phone 301/459-1607 

Statement by Bill Bailey, Past President of Maryland Chapter 113 of the 

National Association of CCC Alumni(NACCCA) before the Sub Committee on 

National Parks, Forests and Public Lands, February 18, 1993 

Of the 3 million (plus) Veterans of WW I and Spanish-American conflicts 

and young men in their late teens and early twenties that enrolled in 

the CCC program from 1933 to 1942 approximately 30,000 have applied for 

membership in the NACCCA. Of these about half have died or dropped out 

but we are continually getting letters from former members that have 

just heard about our group for the first time and want to join. Nearly 

all former CCC veterans want to see a new CCC to give our nations 

unemployed youth the same opportunity and benefits they have enjoyed. 

These benefits not only helped the former CCC member but his family 

including children, grand children and now great grandchildren.(My first 

great grandson is 6 months old) I have 20 family members so if you take 

that times the 3 million former members we now have approximately 60 

million direct benefactors of the original CCC program. How can you 

assign a benefit return for taking 3 million from relief and welfare tax 

burden homes and turning them into 60 million tax payers. The spouses 

and children of former CCC members are also interested in the NACCCA 

and often get their husband or father signed up. 

The Nation benefited during WW II by a basic force of former CCC men to 

join the Armed Forces and Reserve Officers to lead them. They all were 

experienced in working together to obtain a common goal. Many of our 

members went on to attend College on the GI Bill and again benefited 

their country with their training and knowledge. 

HISTORY 

When President Roosevelt became President he wasted no time: He called 

the 73rd Congress into emergency session on March 9, 1933 to hear and 

authorize his programs . One program was called "Emergency Conservation 

Work Act• more commonly known as the CCC. He proposed to recruit 

thousands of unemployed young men, enroll them in a peace time army and 

send them into battle against destruction and erosion of our natural 

resources. Before it was over nearly 3 million young men engaged in a 

massive salvage operation, the most popular experiment of the New Deal. 

Senate Bill S 598 was introduced on March 27, was through both houses of 

Congress and on the President's desk to be signed on March 31, 1933. The 

first induction of the first enrollee (Henry Rich) took place on April 

7 just 37 days after FDR took office. By July there were 250,000 

enrollees and two years later in April 1935 there were 506,000 in 2650 

camps. 

This achievement took a massive effort on four long time Government 

agencies; 

1- The Army who clothed, fed, transported, took care of medical needs 

and furnished active and reserve officers to handle most of the "in" 

camp activities. 
58 

2 & 3- The Interior and the Agriculture Dept.'s were responsible for 

planning and organizing work to be performed in every State in the 

Union. 

4- The Labor Dept. through its State and local relief offices 

selected the enrollees from the applicants. 

Another most important function(National Director of ECW) was assigned 

to Robert Fechner by FDR with his Executive Order 6101 dated April 5, 

1933. He held this post until his death from a heart attack and died on 

New Years Eve in 1939. His assistant John T McEntee was then appointed to be National Director. 

Mr Fetchner's detailed annual progress reports are an invaluable source of information on the CCC. 

FDR in the above Executive Order 6101 appointed the Secretaries of the 

above four agencies to be the Advisory Council for the CCC. The success of the CCC has to be credited to these five officials who worked 

together to lead the organization and make it possible for us boys to accomplish m~ny wonders in the 9 years of the life of the CCC. 

ACCOMPLISHMENTS 

There are too many accomplishments to mention here in detail. Our current President of the NACCCA Lloyd Mielke has been publishing a 

calendar every year since 1986 where he features a CCC project each 

month. He does not have a shortage of projects to feature in this 

venture. Many are made of stone so will be standing a hundred years 

from now. There is a Log Lodge standing on the USDA's Beltsville 

property that was built out of native trees cut and sawed within a few 

hundred feet of the present building. This building is now used to house 

the Agricultural Research Services National Visitors Center and is 

featured in the 1993 CCC Calendar for January. Our Maryland Chapter 113 

holds our monthly summer meetings in this facility. You can go to almost 

every City, State, or National Park or Forest in the whole USA and see 

the handy work of our members. Most do not have corner stones or plaques so the memories of their creation is being lost every year. The 

black top roads and drainage ditches at Beltsville's Agricultural 

Research Center was built by the CCC and most of the brick buildings 

were built by the WPA or PWA. There is a great fishing pond(Cash Lake) on the Patuxent Wildlife Refuge that was built by our members. One of 

our Chapter members told about building the Hanes Point Golf course. Many of the trees in Arlington Cemetery were planted by our skilled 

hands. Many old battlefields, stone forts and monuments were restored 

for future generations to enjoy. The USDA's Soil Conservation Service was created at about the same time as the CCC so we learned together on how to stop wind and water erosion of the soil and we planted many acres 

of trees and bushes for shelter belts, wind breaks and drainage ditch 

vegetation to hold the soil along drainage ditches with their roots. 

We surveyed the demonstration farms and laid out grass strips 50 to 100 

feet wide on level contour lines around the hills to filter the soil 

from run off water and to slow the water so it would soak into the soil. 

Today the farmers are using large disk plows and earth moving equipment 

to build ridges along the same lines to do the same thing. I wonder if 

it is better? It does allow for efficient whole field farming of wheat 

or corn instead of farming in strips around the hills. 
59 

BENEFITS TO THE YOUNG ENROLLEES AND TO THE COUNTRY 

I have found that most of our former enrollees credit the CCC for their 

manhood today. They left home with no hope and nothing but skin and 

bones in most cases. Before long they had gained several pounds in 

weight but the biggest gain was to their self worth as they saw it. They 

found that they could make a difference in their new world and they 

learned how to work and marveled at the accomplishments of the Camp they were part of. I remember one fellow in my barracks describing how he 

had to ride the rails to exist. Today they would classify him as 

homeless . He told of stealing a quart of milk as the milk man delivered 

it so he could make it to another day and another town . He was very 

thankful that he was able to enroll in the CCC and earn his food and 

board as well as a few dollars for his Mother. The camp I was in got most of the graduates from Boys Town in Omaha since we were only about 

30 miles away. They were orphans in most cases and they appreciated the 

opportunity to get started on lifes journey. Many of our CCC graduates 

have climbed to the top of most professions and businesses. For 

instance actors Raymond Burr, Walter Mathau and Robert Mitchum in the 

movies, Chuck Yeager the test pilot, Congressman Roybal(Calif) and Dan 

Daniel(Va), the late Mayor Wahington from Chicago, New Hampshire 

Governor Hugh Gallen, Prize Fighter Archie Moore, and Baseballs Red 

Schoendienst. This is a short list but it is sure that the CCC was the 

first real employment for these men and the values they developed there 

have helped them and many more men to fulfil their lifes dreams. The CCC 

experience matured those boys into men! 11 

How can we measure the benefit to the United States as a whole for many 

projects completed as well as the increased worth of the 3 million men 

that completed these projects. Many forests were replanted and the 

trails, roads, improvements in the Parks has given much pleasure to 

millions of tourists and visitors around the country. The beauty of the 

gardens and roadways that were landscaped and planted by these young men 

are worth a lot. Just imagine what could be done to beautify our Inter 

State Highways. We could drive from one end of the country to the other 

through scenic gardens with the help of a new CCC program. 

LOW COST START UP FOR A NEW CCC PROGRAM 

As the military downsizes much leadership and manpower could set up 

camps around the country. The military has prefab buildings in storage or standing that could be disassembled on the bases and moved to the 

Parks and Forests for quick and low cost camps. They also have all the 

transportation and construction tools and machines needed to get a camp 

in operation. Tents and field kitchens could be set up by the military or enrollees for the enrollees to live in while building their own camps. Some of our NACCCA members think that closed military bases 

should be used for CCC camps but most are too big and in the wrong 

location. In the 30's all the enrollee's came from families on relief 

but this time all young men and women that need work and college 

financing should be included because after all most of the financing 

will come from their own families. There are many strong leaders 

available to head up this program such as FDR's grandson David Roosevelt or some retired Generals and Admirals such as General Norman 

Schwarzkopf. The basic camp knowledge that was proven to be feasible in 

the 1930's will still work today. Please give it a try for our lost 

souls in the cities and urban areas that need a pat on the back and ~ood 

to eat. They will be eternally grateful - the same as we former members. 
60 

NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF 

CIVILIAN CONSERVATION CORPS. ALUMNI 

Mr. Sonc!y Scott. Prof. Stoff 

House Sub-commit tee 

on Not'! Porks & Forests 

612 House Annex I 

Weshtngton. DC 20515 

Deor Mr. Scott: 

II 16 Hancock Avenue • Jefferson Barracks 

PO. Box 16429 • St Louis, Missouri 63125-0429 

(314) 487-8666 

Februory 16, 1993 

We ore pleosed thllt o neortng Is being held regordtng o study on II possible 

new Ctvtllon Conservotton Corps. We wm hove our representottves there. 

We hllve supported the Boren b11l which moy proYlde $20 mll11on. We hope 

ror something greater os many thousonds or our youth need help. 

We recognize the Job Corps hlls provided vocotlonol trolnlng ror neorly 

one million youths over Its 26 yeors or existence. However. I om sure thllt 

most or us reellze thot you connot moke o c6rpenter, brlckl6yer or 

computer operotor out or everyone. 

I hope we 611 reoltze there Is o Jorge group or Amerlcen youths seorchtng 

for something, therefore something must be proYlded for these young 

people to get them off the streets. Mony need to do hord physlcel lebor ond 

hove o sense or occompltshment by seeing whllt they built. Th11t ts whllt 

the CCC did. some youths prefer to be l11borers. but we need these 11lso. 

There should be roclllttes ror at least 400,000 or 11pproxlm11tely 2,000 

comps. Notur11Jly the costs to build these foclllttes would be too gre11t. 

thet Is unless they were provided tent c11mps by the U.S. Mll1t11ry. The 

youths could then build their own permonent rocllltles. 

We must provide the opportunity ror some or these youths to lldv11nce. To 

those whO 11pp1y themselves they should be given the opportunity to hllve 11 

GI blll so they moy obt111n further training. It moy be college or 6 technlc111 

trede. our country very bedly needs trelned m11chtnlsts. mechllntcs 11nd 

technicl!lns of oll kinds If we ore to complete with the rest of the world. 

~r~l~w 

fi'6y-;h1,1elke, 

c.c. Bo!lrd of Directors President 
61 

Oral statement by Bill Bailey; 

Thank you Mr Chairman for inviting a former member of the CCC to make a 

statement for your committee on the 60th anniversary of the founding of 

"Roosevelt's Tree Army•. I am from Nebraska and grew up on a farm where 

I graduated from high school before enrolling in a CCC Soil Conservation 

Camp at Weeping Water Nebraska a few miles south of Omaha. When I left 

the CCC I enlisted in the us Marine Corps in August 1940, In the late 

summer of 1944 the Marines selected me to go to college at Princeton 

University in the pre-officer Naval V-12 program. After the War I 

entered the University of Nebraska to study Agricultural Engineering and 

received a BS in Ag Engineering in June 1950. After a short time active 

service in the Korean conflict I was selected by the Civil Service and 

the USDA to start work at the us Cotton Ginning Laboratory in Leland, 

Mississippi. I worked for the USDA for over 33 years in a variety of 

projects and ended my service at Beltsville where I retired in 1945 

with 39.5 years of total Government Service. 

I now own and operate a consulting business out of my home. One of my contracts was to help the USDA, Iowa State University, and Illinois 

University to bring some Chinese swine back from Shanghai for breeding 

in the USA. we brought back 3 breeds and one of these breeds has turned 

out to be immune to the baby pig diarrhea that costs American Farmers a 

lot of money in death and slow gain. This one gene will increase our 

food supply and benefit all Americans. 

My life in the CCC Camp started with issuing of work and dress uniforms, 

an examination by the Doctor who gave me my first vaccination for small 

pox. Later came food- all the food I could eat and that was a lot as I 

was 18 and a hard worker. I was assigned to a barracks which was a tar 

paper covered wooden building. There were no interior walls just the 

studs and 1 by 6 boards covered by tar paper and then the roof was 

coated with creosote to fend off the rain and w.ind. It was better than 

the drafty home we had on the farm. 

The next morning after reveille and breakfast I reported in my work 

clothes to the azsembly area a nd was loaded on a truck to go to a farm 

to plant trees- thousands of them- along ditches to control water 

erosion . We planted large trees such as cottonwood down the center of 

the ditch and smaller trees in the next rows and ended with choke cherry 

and lilac at the top of the ditch. (Each of the 3 million CCC enrollees 

during the 9 year life of the organization planted an average of 1000 

trees.) The ditch was rounded from side to side which looked different 

than the ditches on our farm. In a few days I found out why as we went 

to a deep gully cut into the h_illside that we attacked with pick and 

shovel to make it ready for tree planting. This was hard work but I 

could see the advantage to the land and the wildlife that would live in 

those bushes and trees in the years to come. Back in camp after the 

evening meal I found th·at I could Jo:..n a class in typing and 

photography. They had other classes but I took these two which started 

me on the r oad to being able to t ype this statement on my word 

processor. I carry and use ray 35 mm Nikon came ra to record my research 

and scenery where ever I travel. I also became pretty good at ping pong. 

We had no radio or TV so we gathered around a piano that one of the 

members could make talk and we sang songs until bed time which came 

fairly early during the week because the trucks and foremen were waiting to attack another gully or make a fence or whatever wa s needed on those demonstration farms. 
62 

Another lesson I learned in the CCC's wa s "SAFETY " 

to do things the safe way and avoid a c cidents. I 

in every thing I do . It has saved me much misery 

money. during my life. 

where we were t aught 

still practice safety 

and probably a lot of 

Since I came from a farm I was asked to make the barbed wire fences we 

used to separate the contour strips of grass between the strips of corn. 

At that time terraces were not invented so grass was used to slow 

erosion and run off. These grass strips were used for pasture or hay. 

It was a new experience for me to stretch barbed wire along those curved rows of fence posts instead of the quarter or half mile long straight 

fences I had learned to work on from my Dad. Since most of the farms we 

worked on furnished a team of horses or mules and a wagon for us to carry fence posts and wire to the fields I became the driver of choice 

for several of the camps work crews besides my own crew. 

After a couple of months of this farm type work I waH asked to assist 

the mechanic in charge of the motor pool. I had never driven a car or 

truck so that was my first duty to learn how to drive and park the 

trucks in the shed at night and get them out in the morning. During the 

day we serviced the vehicles that were not used that day and we always 

had some motors to rebuild . 

I have told you about my training in the CCC's because I have benefited 

very much. I found that I was as good as all the other young men and I 

could do anything I set my mind to. I also learned to have pride in my 

self due to the $8 I was paid each month and knowing that my brothers 

and sisters now had bread to eat because my parents could now buy flour 

and sugar to cook with because of the $22 that was sent home to them 

each month. 

I have prepared a handout of the history and benefits to the members and 

the country then and continuing today . If you have visited the National 

Arboretum when the Azaleas are in bloom you can thank the CCC boys who 

made the cuttings at the nursery in Beltsville and the boys from 

Beltsville and the DC camps that planted the thousands of bushes in the 

woods. 

The NACCCA is having our 60th Anniversary National Convention/Reunion 

from July 16 to 20, 1993 at the University of Maryland in College Park. 

I am inviting all of you to come out and meet these men as I am sur e 

many would like to give their statement to your committee. 

Thank you for letting me tell a little of the benefits of this 

conservation program and I hope to see the day when today's 

can learn the same lessons I learned over 50 years ago. 

type of 

young men 
63 

Mr. VENTO. Does that conclude your statement, Mr. Bailey? 

Mr. BAILEY. Yes, sir. 

Mr. VENTO. We appreciate the invitation. We will take note of 

that. That is an important event and close to the Capitol, so maybe 

some of the Members that are interested in the topic will avail 

themselves of that. 

Let me hear from the other people on the panel. We have Stephanie Alexander, who is a student at Ballou Senior High in Washington, DC. 

Welcome, Stephanie. 

STATEMENT OF STEPHANIE ALEXANDER 

Ms. ALEXANDER. Good afternoon. 

My name is Stephanie Alexander, and I'm 17 years of age. I am 

a senior who attends Ballou High School in Southeast Washington, 

DC, and I am here today to tell you about the many great things 

the Student Conservation Association has taught young adults in 

the metropolitan area. 

I learned about the program through my mother's affiliation with 

the Student Conservation Association. This program has educated 

me and my peers to the fullest. Not only have I learned more about 

the environment, but I have encountered many interesting and diversified people, which has broadened my horizons. It has also developed our knowledge of the different careers that are present in 

the environmental field. 

We have explored these different careers and challenged ourselves to see if we were capable of handling such rigorous service 

to the community as a whole. I have realized that the protection 

of our planet has to be enacted immediately because it affects all 

of us, not just the Indians or the Blacks but the whole planet, and 

the sooner the upcoming generation knows this, the sooner the 

changes can occur. 

During the summer, the program provides jobs for the participants in the program. We are able to get a feel for what we had 

observed during the winter months to decide whether or not we 

had enjoyed it and if we would want to pursue it as a career. I 

spent six weeks in the summer at a national resource career camp 

at Chincoteague Wildlife Refuge with another seven participants 

from other student conservation associations. 

The two weeks SDA spent at the national resource career camp 

were with other young adults from all over the United States. We 

learned about a vast majority of projects from the Forest Service 

who hosted the camp. They taught us about the effect of trees on 

our environment and how they go about preserving the forests to 

make it beneficial for the people. We built a dam to provide a better nesting area for fish during the winter months. Most of all, I 

had a chance to meet up with so many interesting people that will 

indeed stay very close to my heart. 

In Chincoteague, Virginia, we worked with the Fish and Wildlife 

Service. I had a chance to see the famous wild ponies of the refuge. 

We visited laboratories, sand centers for preserving sand dunes, 

participated in the sanitation of the beach, and monitored experiments. 
64 

Through the program, I have decided to go into either environmental sciences or environmental law during my years in college. 

I'm grateful for the program because it has reached out to the 

younger generation and prepared us for the environment we live in 

today. 

Mr. VENTO. Thank you for your testimony. I think it answers 

some of the questions better than even the expert witnesses that 

appeared before you in terms of the specific experiences that you 

had. So that is very helpful. 

We have also from the area here Jessica Trott, who is a Corps 

member from the Maryland Conservation Corps. 

Welcome, Jessica, 

STATEMENT OF JESSICA TROTT 

Ms. TROTT. Thank you. 

I would like to thank you for the opportunity to speak to you on 

behalf of the Maryland Conservation Corps. I am here today to talk 

to you about what the Corps has done and will do for me personally, as I am very interested in conservation and a career in conservation. 

I have found that throughout this year-long program doors have 

opened and opportunities to explore conservation jobs with the Department of Natural Resources have become more available to me. This program will also provide an educational opportunity for me 

to attend community college with a focus on wildlife management. 

Additionally, I have found opportunities to develop career skills, to 

improve socialization and the trust needed for working together as 

a team with my coworkers. 

We are exploring various conservation, wildlife, and forest management practices along with developing citizenship with our community service and a better understanding of the environment. 

Among our job-related skills, we have worked with a seed geneticist in seed orchards with genetically superior trees, learned tree 

planting techniques, installed sand fences, and planted beach grass 

for shore erosion control and to provide a better nesting habitat for 

the piping plover. 

We have also developed a better environment for native plant 

species, cleared boundary lines in the Pocomoke State Forest, 

learned how to run tractors, constructed animal habitat locations, 

built split rail fences, louvered boxes, and learned park maintenance. 

As part of our training on our way to becoming successful young 

adults, we have received AIDS awareness, drug awareness, CPR, 

and chain-saw use, safety, and maintenance. Our life skills experiences have included money management, interpersonal communication, effective thinking and attitude for success, quality workmanship, and the work ethic. 

Our year-round efforts in Maryland are partially funded by the 

Commission on National and Community Service. As part of the 

application of citizenship, we are undertaking 350 hours of community service. Some of my community service activities have included being co-leader of a Girl Scout troop and through several 

leadership training courses given by the Girl Scouts, they have 

taught me to be a more effective leader. I also enjoy singing in a 
65 

choral group that does presentations for nursing homes, community 

groups, businesses, special events, and seasonal occasions. 

Mr. VENTO. Thank you for your testimony. We will have maybe 

a question or two. We appreciate you providing insight. It sounds 

like you have been pretty busy with all of that activity. 

Ms. TROTT. I sure have. 

Mr. VENTO. Finally on this panel, I have invited Joanna Lennon, 

who is the director of the East Bay Conservation Corps, to participate as she has a schedule conflict. 

Joanna, welcome. 

STATEMENT OF JOANNA LENNON 

Ms. LENNON. Thank you. I really appreciate the opportunity to 

switch panels. 

I run the East Bay Conservation Corps that is located in Oakland, California. It is one of 80 corps now across the country, about 

17 of which are State corps, and the rest are local corps. We were 

one of the first corps to start in the country. We are now a $4.5-

million-a-year nonprofit. We serve 600 young people. It is a 

nonresidential program which is quite diverse. We have about 150 

young people that are in a year-round corps program. They do all 

kinds of community service work on public lands and in the inner 

city area. We have long-standing contracts. 

Probably 50 percent of our work is fee-for-service contracts where 

agencies pay us to do the work. We have long-standing contracts 

with organizations like the East Bay Regional Park District, East 

Bay Municipal Utility District, Alameda County Flood Control and 

Water Conservation District, and the 36 cities in our service delivery area. We do a lot of work for public works departments, park 

and recreation departments, and housing departments. In addition, 

we do a lot of work in the inner cities. We do work in schools, work 

for battered women's shelters, run day care programs in schools. So 

it is a combination really of resource management kinds of work 

and inner city work. 

We have also done work for the Forest Service and the Park 

Service. When the Klamath National Forest had a huge fire a couple of years ago, they started something called Operation Phoenix 

where local corps in California sent young people on crews to spike 

camps where they spent a month at a time in the national forest. 

We had two of those young people come back really very fired up 

about working in those agencies and are now permanent employees 

in the forest. 

We have had cooperative agreements with the National Park 

Service. The Golden Gate National Recreation Area, which is one 

of two urban parks in this country, is located in the Bay Area. 

There have been cooperative agreements between the East Bay 

Corps, the San Francisco Corps, and the Marin Corps to do a variety of different kinds of projects on National Park Service land. 

I think what is unique about corps programs is that they really 

serve a dual service. They do use development, but they do it 

through the medium of community service, so it is really hitting 

two major issues in this country with one kind of a program. We 

really look at young people as resources that have a lot to offer. 

There is an incredible amount of work that needs to be done. We 
66 

probably generate $2.5 million out of our budget through contracting with other agencies. It has never been a displacement issue. 

We have never come up against union issues, because we have 

worked very closely with unions since our inception to kind of line 

out projects that were reasonable. 

We also run a large school-based program called Youth Engaged 

in Service, Project YES, where we serve 300 young people in the 

Oakland Unified School District, where we have corps members 

running environmental conservation programs in the schools that 

are also academically based. So we have teachers; we have developed a curriculum that is science-, math-, and English-based. 

The young people do conservation work in the neighborhood of 

their schools, and there is a curriculum that matches what they are 

doing in the schools so that they might go out and do an urban 

creek cleanup and have a science curriculum that is based on what 

happens when you pollute a creek and what happens when that 

pollution goes into the bay and what are the ecological ramifications of that. 

We also run a large learning center at the Corps, which we are 

negotiating now with the State of California to become a charter 

school where, in addition to the young people in our program who 

are mandated to 8 hours of education at least a week, we also run 

programs for welfare recipients, young people in a business club 

who are looking to gain a certain amount. They might need three 

months of math in order to get a job, and so they come to the learning center and participate. 

I think what is really telling about these programs is that they 

are very strong partnerships between all different segments of the 

community to accomplish needed work in the community using 

young people, empowering young people to really believe that they 

can make a difference. 

I think that so often in this society we dismiss young people and 

what they have to offer, and in reality there are so many major 

problems in this country which young people could really help to 

resolve, and I think that the 80 corps in the country and the Student Conservation Association, with whom many of our corps have 

done projects. We did the Yellowstone Rehabilitation Project after 

the big fire there, where corps sent crews from all over the country 

under the auspices of SCA and worked, I think it was for six 

months; crews worked a month at a time. 

So I think that we have at least 10 years of experience just in 

the local corps field. Some of the larger corps, like the California 

Conservation Corps, have been in existence for 15 years. There is 

a corps in Ohio that has been in existence for quite a while. You 

have a wonderful corps in Minnesota that, I think, started in 1983 

along with the rest of us that have been very active in trying to 

set the mandate for this movement across the country. 

[Prepared statement of Ms. Lennon follows:] 
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NARRATIVE OF TESTIMONY 

presented to 

THE COMMITTEE ON NATURAL RESOURCES: 

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by 

JOANNA LENNON, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR 

EAST BAY CONSERVATION CORPS 

February 16, 1993 
68 

East Bay Conservation Corps 2 

It is my pleasure to present to the Committee my perspective on partnership options between 

urban conservation corps and the federal government. My presentation will focus on the 

F.ast Bay Conservation Corps and its relationship with city, county, state, and federal 

agencies. This presentation will conclude with recommendations for creating a cost-effective 

linkage between existing federal programs and local conservation corps. 

Summary: EBCC on the Cuttini: Edge of a National Movement 

The East Bay Conservation Corps (EBCC) was in 1983 one of the first urban conservation 

corps to be established and has since served as a model for the Urban Corps Expansion 

Project. There are now over 70 urban conservation corps either in operation or being 

established in cities throughout the country. Ironically, EBCC in some ways has gone 

beyond the mold it set for other urban conservation corps. EBCC's strong emphasis on 

service-learning, community service and comprehensive education goes far beyond the 

employment & training focus of most conservation corps today. The National and 

Community Service Act of 1990 reflects the values held by EBCC from its inception--that 

community service is an effective mechanism for promoting youth development and 

addressing many of the social and environmental problems that confront our cities, states, 

and the nation. 

EBCC's experience with service-learning and community service, linked with its close 

relationship with local, regional, state and national parks, places the Corps in a strong 

position with regard to the national conservation corps initiative. It is our belief that all 

issues, regardless of their scope, are local issues and that they are best resolved by engaging 

local youth. EBCC has demonstrated its capacity to address multiple priorities in 

comprehensive, innovative and cost-effective ways. The Corps welcomes the opportunity to 

work in partnership with federal agencies to enhance our natural resources, particularly 

youth. 

Agency Overview 

The F.ast Bay Conservation Corps (EBCC) promotes youth development through community 

service and service-learning. By actively engaging young people in their education while 

addressing environmental and social issues, EBCC enhances participants' academic, 

leadership and life survival skills, self-esteem, civic responsibility, and environmental 

awareness. Participants, ages 12 to 24, work on projects that define the environment in a 

social and community context as well as in the performance of conservation work in urban 

and wildland areas. EBCC project sponsors, groups served and sites include public schools, 

community-based agencies, park districts, water districts, and public works departments in 

the F.ast San Francisco Bay counties of Alameda and Contra Costa. Over 90% of the 

EBCC' s participants are people of color and live below standard poverty levels. 

Model Program 

EBCC presents a compelling model for urban areas throughout the nation and has 
69 

East Bay Conservation Corps 

tremendous replicability to the Urban Corps Expansion Project--a collaborative effort of 

Public/Private Ventures (Philadelphia) and the National Association of Service and 

Conservation Corps (NASCC) based in Washington, D.C .. This Project is developing a 

five-year strategy to establish new urban corps and to build broad consensus in support of 

youth conservation and service corps as a national solution to serious social problems. As 

one of the nation's first and most successful urban corps, EBCC is providing critical 

leadership to this project. EBCC's Executive Director is a past president and a board 

member of NASCC and is an acknowledged leader in the national youth corps field. 

3 

EBCC has demonstrated that the corps model is an effective intervention strategy for today's 

alienated youth and young adult population and is a successful way to meet community 

service needs. EBCC has earned a national reputation for its outstanding education program 

and in 1985 was named a National Service and Leaming Demonstration Site by the 

Re.mediation and Training Institute in Washington, D.C. In March of 1989, our Learning 

Center won recognition for being in the top ten percent of centers nationwide for best overall 

performance. Recently, the Corps won the "Take Pride in California" award (co-sponsored 

by the California Department of Parks & Recreation and American Express) and was 

presented a "Certificate of Special Commendation" by the Department of Parks and 

Recreation for outstanding achievements over the years. The Corps is currently a nominee to 

receive a "Take Pride in America" award. 

In addition, the Corps has won national recognition as an excellent educational reform model 

and was one of six programs chosen by the Management Institute for Environment and 

Business as one of the best examples of a public/private partnership in the environmental 

field. 

Youth Service: A Natural Resource 

EBCC believes that young people are a precious natural resource. Our service-learning 

model actively engages youth in addressing many of the social and environmental problems 

facing their communities; in the process, they also improve their own academic, life and 

leadership skills. 

To nurture and develop the skills, talents, and social values of our youth, EBCC has 

designed one of the most comprehensive education, training, environmental improvement and 

community service programs in the country. Our program and service components are as 

follows: 

Comprehensive Education & Corpsmember Development Program 

To meet corpsmembers' needs for a diverse range of educational skills, EBCC operates a 

comprehensive corpsmember development program. This program includes academic skills 

training, career education, lifeskills training, and counseling support. 

To meet the needs of our underprepared youth and young adults, we established the L!:aming 
70 

East Bay Conservation Corps 4 

~. the cornerstone of our education program. Using state-of-the-art methods to 

administer individualized curricula, the Learning Center provides educational strategies to 

improve students' academic skills from grade levels one to twelve. Students begin based on 

their individual specific skill levels as determined by precise assessment tests. They progress 

at their own pace with guidance and support from trained Learning Center staff and certified 

teachers. This past year, Learning Center students gained over two and one-half (2.5) grades 

per every fifty hours of study--more than four times the national average. Our students' 

objectives are to pass the GED exam and to attain a 12.9 grade-level proficiency. 

Reflecting the demographic shift in California, a growing number of our corpsmembers have 

limited English proficiency. To meet their needs, we offer Eni:Hsh-as-a-Second Lani:uai:e 

.rns.L). classes facilitated by trained staff. The Corps' ESL program is being integrated into 

our highly effective Learning Center system for streamlined delivery of services. 

In addition to attending basic education or ESL classes, corpsmembers must complete a "core 

curriculum" of lifeskiHs workshops which include First Aid, Money Management, Time 

Management, Communication and Conflict Resolution and Goal Setting. Other workshops 

and education options offered include leadership training, men's and women's studies, 

carpentry, outdoor adventure, and job-holding sessions to promote retention. 

One of the Corps' primary objectives is to prepare participants for gainful employment as 

adults. As part of our expanding career deve!OJ!ment program, EBCC coordinates over 

twenty paid internships designed to expose corpsmembers to a variety of work environments 

and careers and to provide them with hands-on job training. Intern positions include semiskilled labor, office administration and education. In addition to serving the EBCC's 120 

corpsmembers, the Career Development staff coordinates an employment and training 

program for another forty-six out-of-school youth annually. This program, called the 

"Business Club,• provides the seventeen to twenty-one year-old participants with basic 

education classes, vocational skills training, case management, and job placement assistance. 

The EBCC provides all participants with goal setting workshops, career counseling, and preemployment skills training. 

Counselini: addresses crisis situations and other corpsmember concerns such as domestic 

violence, neglect and health-related issues. A large portion of the Counselor's referrals to 

numerous community resources are related to corpsmembers' increasing needs for emergency 

food and shelter. The Counselor also facilitates a significant amount of staff training. To 

further increase corpsmember retention, Counseling services are beginning to address 

corpsmember health needs such as vision care and comprehensive health examinations. 

Project YES 

Project YES is a comprehensive service-learning and community service program that 

operates in the Oaldand Unified School District. Using a "cascading leadership" model, 

Project YES participants strengthen academic skills while discovering a sense of pride and 
71 

East Bay Conservation Corps 

personal responsibility for their neighborhoods and cities through service-learning 

curriculum, recycling clubs, community service projects and educational field trips. Project 

YES clubs are involved in a wide range of activities including setting up school recycling 

centers, painting neighborhood murals, participating in city graffiti and litter abatement 

programs, building and maintaining park trails and planting community gardens. Project 

YES also runs and extensive summer program, employing college and high school-aged 

young adults to lead and mentor between 200 and 300 middle school youth. 

5 

Project YES works with the Oakland Unified School District (OUSD) at five junior high and 

middle school sites: Carter, Claremont, Frick, Roosevelt and Westlake. YES receives 

support from and collaborates with a wide range of public and private sponsors including: the 

City of Oakland Department of Graffiti Abatement, Department of Parks and Recreation, 

Office of Community Development, Office of F.conomic Development and Employment and 

Office of the Mayor; California Adopt-a-Beach Program; Candlestick Point State Recreation 

Area; East Bay Regional Park District; Museum of Children's Art; Stanford University 

Volunteer Center; University of California, Berkeley; Wells Fargo Corporate Community 

Development Group; and Youth In Action of the San Francisco Conservation Corps. 

Enviroomental hoprovement & Community Service Work Program 

Much of a corpsmember's experience in EBCC is centered on the work program. 

Corpsmembers work thirty-two hours per week on various environmental and community 

improvement projects. Work is accomplished by a crew of six to twelve corpsmembers who 

are supervised by a trained site supervisor. Our projects improve natural resources, promote 

community services, increase public access, assist with disaster relief efforts, and beautify 

neighborhoods and recreational lands in Alameda and Contra Costa counties. 

On the worksite, corpsmembers learn basic work maturity skills such as punctuality, 

dependability, cooperation, quality of work, acceptance of supervision, initiative and 

motivation. In addition, they learn transferable job skills such as tool usage, occupational 

safety, record keeping, and supervision as well as a range of technical skills including 

trailbuilding, fencing, carpentry, construction, masonry, painting, and landscaping. 

Emergency Responsiveness 

In addition to the ongoing environmental and community improvement work performed by 

our corpsmembers, the EBCC has proved its capacity to respond to disasters following the 

Loma Prieta earthquake and the East Bay Hills firestorm. In 1989, the Corps renovated a 

number of abandoned hotels and buildings and helped to convert them into emergency 

shelters and day care facilities for earthquake victims. EBCC corpsmembers also patrolled 

the Marina neighborhood in San Francisco to prevent looting. In 1991, the EBCC evacuated 

fire victims and worked with the Red Cross to set up emergency shelters and to assess the 

damage. Less than a week after the fire, EBCC crews began erecting erosion control 

structures in the bum area to prevent further damage caused by debris and silt runoff. Since 
72 

East Bay Conservation Corps 

then, the EBCC has been working with various government and land management agencies, 

schools and homeowners associations to restore the fire-scarred hills and reduce the potential 

for future infernos. 

Unique Entrepreneurial Focus 

6 

Unlike most non-profit, community-based agencies, EBCC not only develops programs for 

national replication, but also operates like a business. More than half of EBCC's annual 

budget of over $4,000,000 is generated through fee-for-service contracts. Among the Corps' 

sponsors are many of the cities and special districts in the East Bay area. Year-round and 

short-term EBCC crew sponsors view the Corps to be a highly effective and cost-effective 

resource for maintaining and preserving our precious resources as well as for mitigating 

damage caused by natural and human forces. 

EBCC's entrepreneurial approach is also reflected in the Education and Youth Development 

aspects of our operation. Our state-of-the-art Learning Center, which costs roughly 

$300,000 to operate annually, generates over $200,000 in fee-for-service revenue. We 

recently initiated a contract with the California Department of Transportation (CalTrans) to 

train candidates for jobs with contractors that will help rebuild the Cypress (1-880) Freeway 

that collapsed as a result of the 1989 Loma Prieta earthquake. EBCC's involvement as an 

education service provider for the Cypress Reconstruction Project underscores the Corps' 

unique position as an education reform program. 

Special Relationship with Park Districts and Services 

EBCC has developed a particularly strong partnership with the East Bay Regional Park 

District (EBRPD). The Park District sponsors an EBCC crew year-round to perform a 

variety of work at each of its fifty-one parks throughout Alameda and Contra Costa counties. 

EBRPD sponsors additional EBCC crews to perform seasonal work and special tasks, such as 

the urban inter-face fuel break project as part of the District's fire prevention effort. EBRPD 

al so supports other aspects of the Corps' program such as by providing land for EBCC' s 

challenge ropes course and by funding the production of five murals in honor of Dr. Martin 

Luther King, Jr. 

EBCC performs extensive work for most of the parks and public works departments of East 

Bay cities and counties. As municipalities and counties confront severe budget reductions, 

EBCC work crews offer a cost-effective way of accomplishing needed park maintenance, 

community improvement, and fire prevention work. In particular, EBCC works extensively 

with the Alameda and Contra Costa counties Public Works Departments and the cities of 

Oakland, Berkeley, Hayward, Union City, El Cerrito, Walnut Creek, and Richmond. 

As a result of the East Bay Hills Firestorm, EBCC has developed particularly strong 

partnership with the cities and Oakland and Berkeley. Under the leadership of the Parks 

Manager for the City of Oakland, a Vegetation Management Consortium was formed to 
73 

East Bay Conservation Corps 

coordinate fire prevention efforts. The Consortium members are the cities of Oakland and 

Berkeley, the East Bay Regional Park District, the East Bay Municipal Utilities District, the 

University of California, Berkeley, and the Lawrence Berkeley Laboratories. EBCC, with a 

$350,000 grant from the State Office of Emergency Services (FEMA Hazard Mitigation 

Program) is the implementation arm of the Consortium and has been invited by the 

Consortium Chairman to consider becoming a partner in the Vegetation Management Plan 

development process. This model collaborative places EBCC in a influential position as an 

urban conservation corps to impact policy formation . 

Recommendations for Federal Partnerships with Local Corps 

7 

To date, all of the accomplishments of local conservation corps has been achieved with a 

very limited and indirect amount of federal funding . In just ten years, the urban corps 

movement has created a dynamic network of agencies throughout the country with the 

capacity to improve the environment and local communities while promoting youth 

development. For the federal government, local corps are a resource in an of themselves that 

could prove even more effective with direct federal support. 

There are a number of federally funded programs that can support the operations of local 

conservation corps. For example, the Job Training Partnership Act (ITP A) is a source of 

funding for some local corps. Some aspects of the act, however, are very restrictive and 

limit the ability of local corps to serve ITP A participants without compromising their 

program structure. Perhaps a special title should be created that better enables local corps to 

administer ITPA contacts for at-risk youth. Other potential federal sources for urban 

conservation corps include public works funds, Department of Education grants, Pell Grants, 

Work Study funds, Department of Transportation grants, and grants from the Department of 

the Interior and the Department of Agriculture. 

Just as federal funding agencies utilize established universities to serve as a national research 

network, the government should tum to urban conservation corps to create a national 

conservation corps network. On our own, we have developed the capacity to make a 

tremendous impact at a local level. With added federal support, the impact of our operations 

will be felt throughout the country. 

Thank you for the opportunity to address the Committee. 

Joanna Lennon 

Executive Director 

East Bay Conservation Corps 

February 16, 1993 
74 

Mr. VENTO. Thanks for your testimony. 

How is the East Bay Corps funded? Do you get a small grant 

from the State, or do you have more basic funding from the local 

East Bay area? 

Ms. LENNON. The East Bay Conservation Corps is a nonprofit 

corporation with a board of directors. A majority of our funding 

comes from contracting out to do work with different land management agencies, with different municipalities. So, for example, we 

have an almost half-a-million-dollar contract with the East Bay 

Water District who pays for three crews to do resource management work, opening up water district lands to the public, opening 

up reservoirs for fishing, they build trails, put in picnic areas, et 

cetera. We have a long-standing contract with the East Bay Regional Park District, where we work in all 45 of their parks, doing 

everything from gabion construction to streamside riparian 

revegetation to fence building, et cetera. 

Mr. VENTO. In terms of making these awards, in terms of contracts, do they recognize an educational component, or are they 

simply saying we want a certain amount of work done, and we are 

indifferent if it is done by ABC Ace Company? 

Ms. LENNON. I think that, to be absolutely honest about that, 

they probably hire us because it is cost-effective to do so, but in addition, there is really a strong responsibility for public agencies to 

serve the people in their service delivery area. So it is a win/win 

kind of situation. It is cost-effective for them, but at the same time 

they are able to hire a lot of young people who live in the community to do the resource management work on their lands. 

Mr. VENTO. You actually do the management and education programs themselves. I mean it isn't the Park Service or the other 

agency that is doing this, you are actually taking over that particular role yourself. 

Ms. LENNON. That is right, and in fact, the selling point, I think, 

of corps is that because of the extensive supervision that they employ with their crew leaders and site supervisors-plus the structure of corps are set up so that corps hire experienced what they 

call work project coordinators who work with agency liaison to line 

out projects--so in reality we are able to provide a real needed 

service to park districts without employing very many of their personnel. So their personnel are free to do other things. Mr. VENTO. These programs have evolved in terms of what they 

do. I listened to William Bailey talk about what he did with the 

CCC, and then we have two young women here who are talking 

about what they are doing in the 1990s. 

You didn't even have any women in the CCC. Is that right? 

Mr. BAILEY. That is right. No, we were too old for that. 

Ms. LENNON. There were women. Yes, there were. I think there 

was a small number of women in the old CCC. 

Mr. BAILEY. There were a few women. We have one in our en.ap- ter that was an education teacher in some camp. Mr. VENTO. Well, I stand corrected. I guess I was reading my 

staff work here. We probably need to be properly informed. 

But today it is obviously different not just in terms of the makeup of the YCC programs and the corps programs but in terms of 

what they are accomplishing. Needless to say, I don't know that 
75 

the goal was in the 1930s to necessarily provide an apprenticeship 

or develop an interest necessarily in a path to the world of work. 

But you actually went into the Department of Agriculture. Do 

you find that many of your colleagues, the alumni in the CCC, also 

went into various types of work related to resource conservation 

areas? I guess you were doing research on cotton. 

Mr. BAILEY. Well, I think World War II interrupted that path. 

I have heard of some people staying in the Forest Service that were 

in camp. But between the war and the G.I. bill, most of us got a 

couple of good steps away from the CCC before we got our work. 

I don't know of too many who stayed in. 

Mr. VENTO. In a natural resource or conservation role. That is 

interesting. 

Stephanie, you said you intend to get into natural resources or 

environmental work. I think a telling point was that you thought 

environmental law would be a good role. How did you come to that 

conclusion? Have you seen a lot of conflicts where you think doing 

legal work would be interesting? 

Ms. ALEXANDER. Most definitely, because I have an uncle who is 

an environmental engineer, and he told me how big corporations 

would take their waste to Mexico, and they would pay Mexico for 

the land that they would dump the waste in, and it would harm 

a lot of people, and I think that is so wrong. So I decided that if 

I could take a step and change that, it would definitely be worthwhile. 

Mr. VENTO. Well, I won't get into how we are dealing with Mexico these days in terms of that issue. I have some pretty strong 

views on it. But it is interesting to hear how that has led you into 

an interest in a career path. 

Jessica, you are now a high school student, or are you in college? 

Ms. TROTT. I graduated high school. I want to go into wildlife 

management, to do surveys or help the wildlife. 

Mr. VENTO. Have you begun your college classes yet? 

Ms. TROTT. I will begin them in the summer. 

Mr. VENTO. How much experience did you have working with the 

Maryland Conservation Corps? 

Ms. TROTT. Since December 1. 

Mr. VENTO. Since December 1. I don't know if this is seasonal, 

but it is obviously the winter season, according to what they say 

in Maryland. In Minnesota we call this a cool spring. [Laughter.] 

Mr. VENTO. How long of an experience are you going to have? 

Ms. TROTT. It will be a year-long program. 

Mr. VENTO. So you are going to be able to do this for a year, and 

then you think you will be able to take some classes along the way? 

Ms. TROTT. Right. 

Mr. VENTO. Do you receive any type of college credit for any of 

the work you might do here? 

Ms. TROTT. Well, we receive certification, like we got certified for 

CPR. 

Mr. VENTO. You mentioned other educational components-I 

think a sign of the times, AIDS education, which is very important. 

Ms. TROTT. Right, and drug awareness. 

Mr. VENTO. You don't necessarily get college credits then for 

what you are doing but other types of skills. 
76 

Ms. TROTT. No, not for this. We gain personal experience, and we 

will learn how to run different machines or learn how to do different things. 

Mr. VENTO. Yes, you learned how to drive a tractor. That was 

very exciting, wasn't it? 

Ms. TROTT. It was a lot of fun. 

Mr. VENTO. That is really, I think, something today that doesn't 

necessarily happen. Where do you live in Maryland? In one of the 

suburbs around here? 

Ms. TROTT. Salisbury. 

Mr. VENTO. Oh, so you are out a little ways then. 

Ms. TROTT. Right. The Corps, or my group, is in the Pocomoke 

State Forest. 

Mr. VENTO. Okay. There are employment problems in and 

around Salisbury, though, are there not? 

Ms. TROTT. Oh, yes. 

Mr. VENTO. I hear that Campbell's Soup is leaving, sadly. Did I 

read that? 

Ms. TROTT. Yes, about 400 people from that. 

Mr. VENTO. What are other young people that graduated that are 

not in school now doing? Are they working or not? 

Ms. TROTT. The majority do try to find work, or they are going 

to college-leaving the State, going to college. 

Mr. VENTO. Is it very difficult to find work in and around Salisbury for young people like yourself? 

Ms. TROTT. Unless you want to go into fast food or things like 

that. 

Mr. VENTO. That is the big growth area, working at McDonald's. 

Ms. TROTT. Right. 

The educational part of the program is a really good opportunity. 

Mr. VENTO. Well, those fast food jobs are important in terms of 

making a few bucks. 

Do you receive compensation for this? 

Ms. TROTT. Yes, we get minimum wage for 7 hours a day five 

days a week. 

Mr. VENTO. I didn't ask Stephanie. 

Did you receive some compensation for what you were doing? 

Ms. ALEXANDER. Over the summer, yes, we did. 

Mr. VENTO. Is this one of your first jobs, Stephanie? 

Ms. ALEXANDER. Yes. 

Mr. VENTO. How many hours a week were you working when you 

worked on the program? 

Ms. ALEXANDER. In the summer, let's see. We would get up 

around 8 o'clock in the mornir.g when we were at Chincoteague, 

and we would head for the beaches to build fencing. So we would 

probably get off around 4 o'clock. That was Monday through Friday. 

Mr. VENTO. You lived near Chincoteague then? 

Ms. ALEXANDER. We lived on the refuge in a trailer. 

Mr. VENTO. Okay. So y0u actually had residential facilities there. 

Ms. ALEXANDER. Yes. 

Mr. VENTO. Do you live at home? 

Ms. TROTT. Yes, I do. 

Mr. VENTO. So you are not in a residential program. 
77 

Ms. TROTT. No. 

Mr. VENTO. It is just a daily program. 

Do quite a few come from your community or your area in Maryland that are working in the same role that you are? 

Ms. TROTT. In Maryland, there lire 40 corps members. There are 

two different groups in Western Maryland, Eastern Maryland, and 

there are two others; there is one in Rosaryville up here and one 

in Fairmont. 

Mr. VENTO. That isn't very many, considering the number of 

young people, young adults like yourself, that might be interested 

in it. 

How many do you have in the East Bay that are involved, Joanna? 

Ms. LENNON. We have 600 just in the two counties, Alameda and 

Contra Costa. 

Mr. VENTO. They are big counties, I guess. 

Ms. LENNON. And we have a waiting list of 10 kids for every slot 

that we have, and that is just in two counties in one State. 

Mr. VENTO. Do you think if we do what Clinton is asking us to 

do and try to utilize these programs, that we won't have any problems in terms of finding young adults to get involved? 

Ms. LENNON. I don't think that will ever be a problem. 

Mr. VENTO. Mr. Bailey, when you were in Nebraska, how large 

was the CCC in those days? The CCC was located in Nebraska? 

Mr. BAILEY. Well, yes, I was in a camp at Weeping Water. There 

were several camps in Nebraska; I don't know how many. 

Mr. VENTO. How many young people were in your camp with 

you? 

Mr. BAILEY. Two hundred. 

Mr. VENTO. Two hundred? 

Mr. BAILEY. Right. 

Mr. VENTO. And that was before they really got a big population 

in Nebraska, too. 

Mr. BAILEY. Well, most of them came from Nebraska. We were 

right south of Omaha, so most of our camp came from Nebraska. 

Now some of the other camps were brought in from other States, 

but our camp was Omaha, Lincoln, and we got the Boys Town 

graduates, so nearly all of them were from there. 

Mr. VENTO. I often, Mr. Bailey, have individuals and so forth 

suggest that they reestablish the CCC, but I think there probably 

is not an awareness of the Youth Conservation Programs and other 

programs that still exist today that are doing this. I think the difference is the number of participants, because at that time there 

were so many participants that it had a major impact in terms of 

helping and filling a need, and today it doesn't fill that need. 

Mr. BAILEY. Right. 

While I was working for Agriculture in Beltsville, we used the 

Forest Service YCC employees there. So I have had some of them 

working for me, which is a good program. It could be enlarged. It 

is mainly high school kids. 

Mr. VENTO. I remember going through some statistics last year 

on the JTPA program, the regular jobs training program, the Jobs, 

Employment, and Training Act that replaced CETA back in the 
78 

early 1980s-1982, I think. That, of course, eliminated the Young 

Adult Conservation Corps, that particular law. 

In any case, the amount of money that we fund-$2.5-$3 billion 

a year-meets 5 percent of the need of the JTPA program. So they 

have got 33 million individuals that would qualify for that type of 

employment and training opportunity, and we meet 5 percent of 

the need. That is $3 billion, so if you multiply that out, you get 

some idea, if you were going to meet that need, what you have to 

do. It is very significant. So we are nowhere near in terms of the 

objective of that program. 

So often today I think that where you could be an apprentice and 

start out at a factory or in a plant, or doing other things, those sort 

of entry-level jobs today are the type of jobs that you were talking 

about, the service-related jobs, and that most private businesses 

have externalized these jobs, and they expect the individual that 

comes to the place of employment to be trained and ready to enter 

that job. It is really right down to the extreme. 

Last week in my district, I visited with some employment specialists. They had a very large accounting firm that had moved its 

operation from out of Minnesota to Massachusetts, and the employees were trained to be mainframe computer operators. They were 

all in their 40s and had had 20 years of experience working on 

computers, and they were all laid off, and they went to Massachusetts and hired completely new people that worked with personnel 

computers, they didn't have the need for the mainframe, so they 

were just kind of left on their own to try to find something to do. 

Now many of them will probably do that, they will be successful, 

but there are always a number of people that are going to fall between the cracks and be out of the mainstream and dependent for 

a long time until they get back, because these businesses have externalized these costs. You know, half the education dollars for initially 10 or 15 years ago were spent by the private sector, businesses. They were willing to invest in young people, and older 

workers I might say, along the way to help them out. But the reality of the 1990s is that they are not willing to do that. At least 

it is an uneven thing; it isn't obvious with every business, but it 

is generally the practice today. 

So that is what we are really up against in these types of programs-to provide an opportunity for someone to get reestablished 

or to begin to find their way into a profession or a career and, at 

the same time, fulfill or retain some of the other values that we 

value as a nation. 

No other of my colleagues have come back. I very much appreciate this panel's testimony. It has been helpful. I hope that we can 

make this the best program possible for national service. 

Mr. Bailey. 

Mr. BAILEY. Yes. I didn't hear the Forest Service or anybody 

mention it, but the Job Corps has some CCC camps in the forest. 

I don't know how many of them. But they are run just like the old 

CCC. They call it the CCC, but it is Conservation Corps Camps 

now. 

Mr. VENTO. Yes. Well, you know, the Job Corps program has a r-0

.•sidential program in my area. They also have some on site where 

people do not stay overnight with the Job Corps programs. They 
79 

are dealing with a segment of people who have had difficulty. Just 

as the President last night talked about the boot camps, the Job 

Corps is sort of a step away from that. But maybe if we had more 

of these types of programs we wouldn't need so many boot camps. 

Mr. BAILEY. Boot camps don't serve anything. 

Mr. VENTO. Well, they are a holding pattern. 

Mr. BAILEY. Just to tell somebody how to do something when you 

say something, just to teach them to jump. 

Mr. VENTO. They have a different level of performance, so they 

aren't the same thing. I think that maybe if we had more programs 

like this we would need less money spent on our major crime bill 

or on boot camps and so forth. 

Mr. BAILEY. They are too tired to cause trouble when they are 

through. [Laughter.] 

Mr. VENTO. That is the strategy, I guess, and maybe a different 

frame of mind. 

Mr. BAILEY. Well, it helps. I mean the people who come into the 

camps do the work, and they see what they accomplish, and that 

changes their mind in a hurry. 

Mr. VENTO. And I think all segments of our society, including the 

land management agencies and others, can do a lot in this vein. 

I know we have a long list of witnesses, and I see one of your 

colleagues raising his hand. He wants to have some input here. 

If you want to come forward. 

STATEMENT OF HARRY WILLIAM DENGLER, HYATTSVILLE, 

MD, MARYLAND EXTENSION FORESTER (RETIRED 1976) 

Mr. DENGLER. Could I make a few comments? Can everybody 

hear me? 

Mr. VENTO. You have got to give your name for the record here. 

Mr. DENGLER. I'm Harry Dengler, and I'll be 82 in May. 

I finished four years of college at Syracuse back in 1933 and 

went to work for the Forest Service in Wisconsin and Tennessee, 

and then I came to Maryland with the Soil Conservation Service 

as a forester. I remember very, very distinctly that there was a Black CCC 

camp in Washington that planted all these beautiful azaleas out at 

the National Arboretum, and if any of you have gone to the National Arboretum in the spring of the year, this is one of the most 

beautiful things you ever saw. Those azaleas were raised by the 

CCC out at Beltsville, where Mr. Bailey is, and planted by the African American CCC camp here. 

One of the interesting things that I observed with the CCCs was, 

all of these 200 CCC enrollees coming into the camps, puny, pimply, really no concept of anything in the world, and after a couple 

of months being there, the discipline, the pride that they had in 

themselves, the wonderful meals that they got were simple but 

wonderful, and an aspect that has been completely overlooked is 

the fact that most of these boys went into World War II, and they 

were probably the greatest force in a way, although the CCC camps 

had nothing whatsoever to do with Army. 

One point I'll just finish with. I was a forester in the CCC camp 

below Annapolis. In the spring of 1933, I believe it was, there was 

a tremendous flood in Washington. We got a call at 8 o'clock that 
80 

we might be needed to come to Washington, and be prepared. At 

2 o'clock we got a call; the Potomac River had breached everything 

and was spreading all over the city of Washington. The Army 

Corps of Engineers had established a line-I can't remember now, 

because that is close to 60 years ago-but they had established a 

line that was a sort of a levee, or a breakwater, or what, and I 

never was so much amused in all my life. Incidentally, I believe I'm 

the only forester in Washington that ever had a police escort. 

The line was breaking here when the water was coming up. I remember I was near the Treasury Building to the best of my recollection. We had CCC boys filling sandbags and making a dike and 

a dam. But the thing that amused me most-now this was the Depression days; most of the contractors and road builders and all of 

that had no work at all-but this line of sandbags along here needed reinforcing to keep the floodwaters back. And I never saw bulldozers so happy, pushing up the bushes, and the sidewalks, and 

the dirt, reinforcing these sandbags, and they knew that the more 

damage they did, the more work they would have. [Laughter.] 

Thank you very much. 

Mr. VENTO. The year the Potomac almost ate the Capitol, eh? 

Well, thanks for those comments-a little unorthodox. Please 

give your name to the clerk for the record. 

Thank you all very much for your testimony. I appreciate it. 

Mr. Bailey, let's just recognize the alumni here-in fact, one extemporaneously. 

Mr. BAILEY. He was one of the staff for the camps. 

Mr. VENTO. Yes. Thank you very much. Thank you all, and good 

luck with your experiences with the Maryland Corps, and the student at Ballou. Good luck. 

We have five more witnesses. I think I will ask them to all come 

forward at this time and testify. We have Destry Jarvis, who is the 

executive vice president of the Student Conservation Association, 

which has been referred to by other witnesses; we have Emilio Williams, the director of the Technical Assistance Services of the National Association of Conservation and Youth Corps; Frank Slobig, 

director of policy and programs, Youth Services America; Larry 

Fonnest, director of the Minnesota Conservation Corps; and, finally, Doug Wheeler, the secretary of the California Resources 

Agency. 

If you can find an extra chair, we will get started to conclude this 

hearing. 

Welcome. 

Does anyone have a time problem today? 

[No response.] 

Mr. VENTO. Okay. If you would each take about five minutes, 

make your explanation, and if I have any questions I will try to 

ccme back to you and elaborate on them. Let me know if you have 

:;.ny time difficulties. 

t•estry, why don't you begin. 
81 

PANEL CONSISTING OFT. DESTRY JARVIS, EXECUTIVE VICE 

PRESIDENT, STUDENT CONSERVATION ASSOCIATION; 

EMILIO WILLIAMS, DIRECTOR, TECHNICAL ASSISTANCE 

SERVICES, NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF SERVICE AND CONSERVATION CORPS; FRANK J. SLOBIG, DIRECTOR OF POLICY 

AND PROGRAMS, YOUTH SERVICE AMERICA; LARRY P. 

FONNEST, DIRECTOR, MINNESOTA CONSERVATION CORPS, 

MINNESOTA DEPARTMENT OF NATURAL RESOURCES; AND 

DOUGLAS P. WHEELER, SECRETARY, RESOURCES AGENCY, 

STATE OF CALIFORNIA 

STATEMENT OFT. DESTRY JARVIS 

Mr. JARVIS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

It is a pleasure to be before you as the Committee embarks on 

what I think is one of the most important endeavors that it can engage in, in this Congress, which is to further what I believe is the 

national ground swell of interest in service and that of the President. I think to embody that in conservation service on the Federal 

public lands in particular is a way to allow both the young people 

of America to give back to their country and to fulfill what we all 

know is a tremendous need in carrying out projects and the backlog 

of natural resource and maintenance needs of the Federal public 

lands. 

This convergence of interest in service and backlogged need and 

the interest in partnerships that is sweeping the country, I think, 

leads us to national service as an outlet and a solution to those 

problems. I do think, however, that legislative action is necessary 

to implement the kind of program of both the type and scale that 

is necessary for several reasons. One is that the backlog of demand 

is there, but, more importantly, none of the basic laws on the books 

now-the Youth Conservation Corps Act and the National and 

Community Service Act-are adequate to the task at hand. 

I will skip over the references in my statement to what SCA is 

all about and the kinds of programs that we do, except to say that 

we have worked on public lands for all of the agencies that have 

been before this Committee today and a number of others. We have 

worked in every State in the country. We have worked in Puerto 

Rico on the habitat recovery of the endangered Puerto Rican parrot. We have worked in Alaska, and Hawaii, and every State in between. 

We have had partnership agreements with the Park Service for 

35 years, with the Forest Service for 25 years, and so on with the 

other agencies. 

The founding principles of SCA have included that from our inception in 1957 our programs have all been 50/50 male/female, and 

our programs have always been cost-shared with the agencies. That 

is, we raise philanthropic funding to support the work that is done 

on the land. This year, we will raise about $2.5 million of private 

funding to match with the agency cost shares. 

Let me skip ahead now to just talk about specifically what I believe is a framework for the legislation that I would hope this Committee would pursue. As I said, the National Community Service 

Act, the most recent law on the books, is inadequate. For all in-
82 

tents and purposes, it omits the opportunity for service on the Federal public lands. If you note section 126 of Subtitle C of that Act, the Federal 

agencies are only involved if the States either fail to act-and 49 

of the 50 States have established corps-or choose to allow their 

work to be performed on Federal lands as opposed to State and 

local lands. There certainly are instances where that has happened, 

as Joanna Lennon and others have indicated, where Federal public 

lands fall within urban areas in particular or where there are particularly urgent projects, as in the case of Yellowstone or as in the 

case now of the hurricane recovery in Florida. But by and large, the Federal land service component was left 

out of the National Community Service Act. It kept the title, American Conservation Corps, that this Committee had attempted to 

enact several times previously but provided no funding nor any direction specifically to service on the Federal public lands. 

I . think that legislation should be enacted that would be 

multifaceted, would have components for teenagers, pre-college, 

teenagers not college bound, in-college undergraduates, post-college, and seniors. All of these can be incorporated into meaningful 

service, accomplishing significant work, without competing with the 

Federal work force or the private sector contractors that also engage in work on the public land, and do so in a way that combines 

the benefit to the agency of service and work carried out and benefit to the individual both in terms of personal growth and development and the incentive of either working for minimum wage or college loan forgiveness, or pre-college credits or vouchers that can be 

applied to college, and simply in some cases the motivation of 

young people to decide to attend college once they have been 

through programs of this sort. The more flexibility that any ensuing legislation can provide to 

a multifaceted program, the better. I think particularly taking advantage of organizations in the nonprofit world like SCA and like 

the 75 or 80 corps that exist is the way to go. I think our organizations are better prepared to manage young people and adequately 

prepared to manage the conservation service project. I would suggest the Committee also consider a designated source 

of funding to, in part, pay the Federal share of the cost of this. One 

way to do that might be to adapt what was called the America the 

Beautiful passport, which was capturing entrance fees, and apply 

those monies in an earmarked account directed away from operations funds so as not to get caught up in the 0MB against appropriation of designated funds, and apply that to the service program 

to fund at least a share of the costs of carrying out these projects 

on the public lands. 

I think you will find both the nonprofit community willing to 

fund-raise to support this, I think you will find segments of the forprofit sector equally willing to provide funding to support this. In 

particular, I think the recreation industry, both the manufacturers 

and the retailers, are showing a tremendous interest in work and 

service and other conservation activities on the public lands. These 

resources can match Federal dollars and, I think, carry out more 

work than Federal appropriation alone can support. 
83 

I will just conclude, Mr. Chairman, by saying that the need is 

real, there are plenty of people ready to work, a tremendous number of projects, and it simply needs the inspiration and leadership 

that this Committee and the Congress and the President can provide to get it off the ground. Conservation service is only one piece 

of a National Service Program but a critical one. 

Thank you. 

[Prepared statement of Mr. Jarvis follows:] 
84 

The Student Conservation Association, Inc. 1800 N. KENT ST., SUITE •1260, ARLINGTON, VIRGINIA 22209 (703) 524-2441 FAX (703) 524-2451 

Boulder, CO • Charlestown, NH • Los Angeles, CA • Newark, NJ • San Francisco, CA • Seattle, WA 

STATEMENT OFT. DESTRY JARVIS 

EXECUTIVE VICE PRESIDENT 

STUDENT CONSERVATION ASSOCIATION 

BEFORE 

THE SUBCOMMITTEE ON NATIONAL PARKS, FORESTS, & PUBLIC LANDS 

ON 

THE AMERICAN CONSERVATION CORPS & YOUTH CONSERVATION CORPS 

ON FEDERAL, STATE, AND LOCAL PUBLIC LANDS 

FEBRUARY 18, 1993 

INTRODUCTION 

MR. CHAIRMAN, AND OTHER DISTINGUISHED MEMBERS OF THE SUBCOMMITTEE, 

I am Destry Jarvis, Executive Vice President, student Conservation 

Association. I am grateful fo"4Fthe opportunity to testify before 

you today, on a subject near ·:a.nd dear to the heart of SCA - national service, particularly as it relates to youth service on the federal public lands. 

President Clinton's call for ,J., major new national service 

initiative comes at the time of a uniquely dynamic convergence of at least two major trends sweeping across America. First, 

following a decade of looking elsewhere for personal fulfillment, 

the youth of America have returned to the desire (and personal 

responsibility) to perform service to the Nation, equal to if not greater than ever before. Second, there is a recognition a• ong 

virtually all segments of our society that neither the government nor the private sector is in it, or can do it alone, and that 

partnerships a• ong government, the for-profit, and the not-forprofit sector are the best and most cost-effective means of 

achieving common goals. 

National conservation service, the portion of a larger national 

service program on which this hearing is concentrated, provides a variety of Values, values to the individuals who serve, values to the public lands on which service is performed, and values to our 

society as a whole. 

These hearings are warranted, and ensuing legislative action is 

necessary because, 1) as never before, the public lands are in need 

of conservation service projects which cannot be carried out by 

federal employees or contractors for fiscal reasons, 2) because the 

youth of America are ready, willing and able to serve by the 

thousands, 3) and because neither of the two basic laws which 

authorize such service, the Youth conservation Corps Act of 1972, 

l 
85 

as amended, nor the National and Community Service Act of 1990, are adequate to the task at hand. 

WHO IS SCA AND WHAT DO WE KNOW ABOUT SERVICE 

SCA is uniquely prepared to appear before you today, since we have 

been a provider of young people for service on the federal public 

lands since before enactment of the Youth Conservation Corps 

legislation in 1972. In fact, SCA came into existence in the summer of 1957, the brainchild of a recent college graduate, 

Elizabeth custuaan Titus, who had written her college thesis on the 

subject of youth service on the public lands. Liz Titus continues to serve today as SCA's President Emeritus, and her inspiration and 

leadership guides the participants, staff and Directors of SCA. 

SCA's Mission Statement is that, "The Student Conservation 

Association fosters lifelong stewardship of the environment by 

offering opportunities for education, leadership, and personal 

development while providing the highest quality public service in 

natural resource management, environmental protection, and 

conservation." 

SCA carries out this dual purpose of conservation service and 

personal development at several ages and in a variety of programs. 

However, no matter what the program, nor with which agency, both of 

these goals are essential to the SCA Experience. 

Among federal agencies, SCA currently has cooperative agreements 

with the National Park Service (35 years), U.S. Forest Service (25 

years), U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service (15 years), Bureau of Land 

Management (15 years), U.S. Navy Department (3 years). This year we are establishing new agreements with the National Marine 

Fisheries Service, Environmental Protection Agency, Tennessee 

Valley Authority, and Army Corps of Engineers. 

At the State level, we have agreement with conservation agencies in 

California, Utah, Wyoming, Maine, Vermont, New Hampshire, and 

others. Among private organizations, we have provided volunteers to the Nature Conservancy, National Audubon Society, Trout 

Unlimited, Appalachian Trail conference, society for the Protection 

of New Hampshire Forests, and others. 

A founding principle of SCA throughout our history is that all 

programs have been 50-50% male-female in both the participants and 

the leaders. Another is that all SCA programs are cost-shared 

between SCA, through private philanthropy, and the host agency beneficiary. 

SCA' s largest partnership is the Resource Assistant Program, in which predominently college undergraduates volunteer in careerdeveloping internahips for 3-4 months at any time of the year. 

About 1200 such individuals served this entire array of agencies in 

2 
86 

1992, for about 700,000 hours of service. In order to identify the 

indivuduals to serve in the RA Program, we recruit on over 4000 

college campuses throughout the year. The RA Program is 

academically accredited for any participant through an SCA 

agreement with Colorado State University. 

The RA program also includes older adults, for which we recruit, 

from among other places, through the American Association of 

Retired Persons Volunteer Talent Bank. 

Within the scope of the RA Program, we have identified positions 

specifically for blind or wheel-chair assisted individuals. We have positions for recent college graduates in natural resource 

fields from the new democracies of Poland, the Czech Republic, and 

Hungary to gain first-hand field experience in park and forest 

management. For several years, we have carried out an exchange of 

bilingual college students teamed with park professionals from both 

the US and Russia, to work on joint park planning projects. 

Though smaller in size because of greater expense to operate, the 

SCA High School work group is better known publicly. In this 

program teenagers serve 4-6 week terms in teams of 6-10 teens with 

1-2 adult leaders. In 1992, some 500 of these energetic youth contributed over 100,000 hours of labor on public land sites 

throughout the country completing trail construction and 

maintenence, ecological restoration, habitat enhancement, 

recreation facility construction, timber bridges, rock walls or 

other physical work on the public lands. We annually hire some 135 

adult leaders on a seasonal basis to lead the high schools groups, 

and currently enjoy about a 75% pool of returning veteran supervisors each year. 

Within the high school program format, we have operated groups of 

all hearing-impaired teens, with leaders skilled in American Sign 

Language, which have functioned in all ways identically to other 

SCA groups. For several years through the late sos and early 90s, we ran a summer program operating Forest Service campgrounds with 

developmentally-delayed teens and leaders trained in special 

education. The teens collected camper fees, cut firewood, 

performed routine maintenence in the campground, and generally 

gained their first sustained experience in the outdoors. 

Within the high school program, we also conduct exchanges with 

Mexico and Russia, for students to work in both countries. 

In order to find participants for the high school program, we 

recruit in over 20,000 high schools across America. over ten years 

ago, we began sending our recruiting staff into major urban high 

schools to recruit face-to-face with urban youth and their parents 

in order to assure a diverse applicant pool. This successful 

recruiting method led to the establishment of SCA urban programs in 
87 

Seattle, Los Angeles, Tuscon, San Francisco, Denver, Chicago, 

Atlanta, New York, Washington, D.C., and other metropolitan areas, and resulted in very successful sWDlller programs for urban youth. 

During this same time period, SCA also began the New Hampshire 

Conservation Corps, which works with about 100 "at-risk" youth 

throughout the year, teaching math and reading skills blended into our regular conservation service programs, working primarily in the 

New Hampshire State Parks. This month, several groups of these 

youth have traveled to Florida to work with the Dade County 

conservation Corps in the ongoing repairs following Hurricane 

Andrew. 

All of SCA's decades of experience in youth conservation service, 

personal growth, and career development, led us three years ago to establish the Conservation career Development Program (CCDP). CCDP 

is a national program working with both high school and college 

young men and woaen, primarily minorities, to provide a year-round, 

multi-year set of field experiences, training, mentoring, and 

related preparation for individuals to pursue a path to a career in 

the conservation field. 

For the high school CCDP, we have program offices and recruit 

students in Los Angeles and Oakland, CA; Seattle, WA; Newark, NJ; 

and Washington, D.C., and are currently planning expansion into the 

midwest, southwest, and southeast. At the college level, we recruit through historically Black, Hispanic, and Native American 

colleges. For 1993, some 170 participants are engaged in the CCDP. 

Finally, we carry out two adult training courses for leaders of 

youth conservation service programs. The first of these is the SCA 

High School Supervisors Training Course, which is a three-day 

curriculum and covers camp management, youth counseling, emergency 

procedures, first aid, environmental education, and others subject in a refresher format. 

Our second and more widely applicable training course is the . Wilderness Workskills Training Program, a five-day, outdoor 

workstation format, teaching trail construction and maintenence, 

ecological restoration and revegetation, timber and rock 

construction, and other primitive and hand-tool skills necessary 

for any adult leader of a conservation service program on the 

public lands. In addition to requiring all SCA leaders to take 

this course, we otter it to public land agency personnel, 

conservation corps leaders, and other volunteer service 

organizations. 

I should also add as a historical footnote, that throughout the 

1970s, SCA ran Youth Conservation Corps crews as a contractor to the NPS and USFS. In fact, the antecedents of the YCC Program can be traced to several SCA high school programs in Olympic National 

Park in the 1960s, which were visited .by the late Senator Henry M. 

4 
88 

Jackson, a principle author of the original YCC legislation. Senator Jackson told SCA leaders at the time that he was modeling 

the YCC legislation after the SCA, and even asked SCA if we wanted to be written into the legislation. SCA declined. 

Of course, the original precursor of national conservation service was the Depression-era Civilian Conservation Corps, which 

functioned from 1933-1942. Initially inspired as a public works 

jobs program, the CCC has come to be revered over the years for the 

exceptionally high quality construction and related conservation 

work carried out on the public lands. The ccc served as SCA's Liz 

Titus• initial inspiration and its emphasis on quality is still a guiding principle of SCA. But the times have changed, and a number 

of the factors which contribute to the need for and benefit of 

national service are different today. Any new national service 

initiative should learn from these past programs, but be responsive to the needs of today. 

Mr. Chairman, I mention all of this history and program description 

of SCA in order to provide a context to the specific suggestions and recommendations we have to offer to the committee today. 

OPPORTUNITY AND NEED 

Federal public land managers today are facing a seemingly 

insurmountable backlog of conservation project work which is 

urgently needed, but for which they have neither the funds nor the 

manpower. Thousands of young people throughout the Nation are eager to volunteer for conservation service. Many thousands more would jump at the chance to earn minimum wage in conservation field 

jobs while learning essential life and employment skills which can sustain them in a career. 

When Congress enacted the otherwise meritorious National & 

Community Service Act of 1990 (NCSA), a conservation service 

component aimed at the federal public lands was, for all intents 

and purposes, left out. Section 126 of Subtitle c, the American 

Conservation and Youth Corps, provides that "if a State has failed 

to establish a youth corns proaram and no local youth corps 

programs exist within such state, the commission may make a grant 

to a Federal aaencv to directly administer a vouth corns program." (eaphasis added) currently, 49 of the 50 states have established, or already had operating, a corps (Connecticut has none), and it seems virtually certain that the states and city sponsors of the 

various corps are decades away, if ever, from wanting or allowing 

their corps to carry out projects on the federal lands to the extent needed, when there is more than ample work on state and local public lands. 

Presidents Reagan and Bush failed to fund the Youth Conservation 

Corps or the Young Adult Conservation Corps for their 12 years in 

office, and with the exception of a few small vestiges of these 

5 
89 

programs, they are essentially defunct. Even with new funding, I would argue that today's needs for youth conservation service on 

the federal public lands cannot be adequately served without 

amending the YCC Act. 

New legislation is needed to foster youth conservation service on the federal lands, and should be undertaken by this Committee by 

amending the YCC Act, and ignoring the NCSA. 

A CONCEPT FOR A FEDERAL PUBLIC LANDS CONSERVATION SERVICE CORPS 

In order to greatly expand the opportunity for service, and to carry out thousands of needed conservation projects on the federal 

public lands, the Congress and the Clinton Administration should 

propose, and enact, legislation to establish, and fund, a National 

Public Land Conservation Service Corps. The outline for such a corps would be as follows: 

* authorize conservation service work by America's youth and young 

adults on lands managed by the National Park Service, U.S. Forest 

service, U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service, Bureau of Land Management, 

U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, Tennessee Valley Authority, Bureau 

of Reclamation, and installation lands of the armed services. 

* authorize a multi-layered program with components for teenagers, 

both college and non-college bound; young adults both in and out of 

college; and seniors. 

* authorize a service incentives program with options, including : work for minimum wage; or work for a set period of time , with a 

lump stipend or grant at the end, as in the Peace Corps, which is 

directly applicable to college tuition; or service for a set period 

of time in return for college-loan forgiveness; or a vocational job 

incentives program for non-college-bound youth, which guarantees access to training in the building and construction trades, or in 

such fields as law enforcement, and facility maintenence. 

• every service component 

skills and interpersonal 

education; high school GED 

training. 

should include a curriculum of life 

growth experiences; environmental 

where needed; and vocational skills 

• authorize several basic formats of service, which would include, a training period at the beginning of at least two weeks, followed 

by a service locati on assignment for teenagers in small groups of 

8-15, with supervision from a project leader, and site project 

coordination from agency personnel; and for college and other young 

adults, a format of individual placement into a position which 

utilizes their academic or vocational skills or interests. 

* terms of service could range from a minimum of six-months when 

6 
90 

working at minimum wage, up to two years when seeking college loan 

forgiveness or a college-tuition grant. 

* for seniors or other adults, service assignments should be 

matched to job skills and prior experience, with these individuals 

generally working for shorter periods of time and closer to their 

home town, except for seniors with mobile homes, who can serve as campground managers, visitor centers information staff or other 

positions where placement as a individual is warranted. 

FUNDING AND ADMINISTRATION 

New legislation should authorize each participating federal agency to administer its own portion of the Federal Public Lands 

Conservation Service Corps, with a goal of avoiding establishment 

of any large, new, central bureaucracy. 

Language should be included which directs the participating agency, 

wherever feasible, to contract all or portions of its program to existing non-profit organizations, such as SCA or one of the 75 or more state and local corps which already exist around the country. 

non-profit organizatlons can run conservation service programs more efficiently and effectively than federal agencies, and already have 

within their work forces the basic expertise needed to blend 

conservation service and youth development. 

In order to assure a seperate and somewhat independent source of 

funding for this Federal Public Lands Conservation Service Corps, 

we suggest combining the earmarking of funding from the collection 

of entrance ~.nd user fees for public use of the federal lands, with a privately raised share of the costs, which could be administered as seperate accounts through the federally chartered non-profit foundations such as the National Park Foundation, the U.S. Fish & 

Wildlife Foundation and the National Forest Foundation. 

Setting aside entrance and user fees on the public lands to fund a 

share of the costs of conservation service on the public lands 

would accomplish multiple purposes: * such fees would return to and directly benefit che public lands through accomplishment of needed service work, 

* such fees would be set apart from the normal format of 

federal appropriations for maintenence and resource management of 

the public lands, and thus would not be co-mingled with other lineitems, 

* such fees, 

seperate purpose, 

going to a seperate pool of funds, and for a 

would be less likely to be offset against 

7 
91 

appropriations for other agency programs by the 0MB, a real problem 

in previous attempts to increase and make uniform publi c land entrance fees, 

* such fees, when matched with private funds either raised by 

the public land foundations or brought in by co-sponsoring non- profit organizations, would be stretched further than if the 

program depended upon 100% federal funding, 

* users of the public lands would more willingly pay existing or increased entrance or user fees if they knew that these fees went directly to fund national conservation service, and benefi ted 

the public lands. 

A slight variation on this funding format would be to require that 

the recipient federal agency put up 1/3 of the costs of a service 

program from among its regularly appropriated maintenence and resource management funds, that the public land foundations fund 

1/3 from the entrance/user fees fund, and that partner non-profit 

organizations put up 1/3 of the costs, either directly through 

thei r membership revenues, or by bringing in corporate or other 

foundation partners to put up this share . 

For example, I feel certain that the outdoor recreation industry, i ncluding the hundreds of recreation equipment manufacturers and 

retailers who advertise their products in conjunction with use of 

the federal public lands, would be willing partners in this major new initiative to develop a Federal Public Lands conservation 

Service Corps. 

Mr. Chairman and members of the Committee , in conclusion, and at the risk of stating the obvious, I note that there is a great and 

largely untapped resource among the thousands of youth across America who are eager for an opportunity to serve on the public 

lands - giving back to the Earth is a virtually universal rallying 

cry in high schools and colleges today; simultaneously, this 

Committee in particular is all too painfully aware of the billi ons of dollars in backlogged maintenence and resource management work 

currently left undone on the federal public lands. 

National conservation service on the federal public lands is the 

perfect opportuni ty for a marriage of these two highly compati ble 

public needs. I urge that the Committee move expeditiously, on a seperate, and parallel but compatible course, with the President's 

call for a larger and more expansive National Service Program. 

Thank you for the opportunity to testify. answer any questions. 

8 

I would be happy to 
92 

Mr. VENTO. Thank you very much, Mr. Jarvis. 

We have Emilio Williams, director of technical assistance services of the National Association of Service and Conservation and 

Youth Corps, with us. 

Mr. Williams. 

STATEMENT OF EMILIO WILLIAMS 

Mr. EMILIO WILLIAMS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'm pleased to 

be able to speak today on behalf of the National Network of Youth 

Conservation and Service Corps programs. 

Given the new Administration's deep commitment to both national service and the environment, this is an exciting time for 

corps. We at the National Association of Service and Conservation 

Corps-NASCC-look forward to the active leadership and involvement of the Subcommittee and the discussion of how best to expand opportunities for young people to serve their communities and 

the Nation. 

I would briefly like to address some of what we know about 

Youth Corps, where we are going as a movement, and then share 

our views on some relevant policy and legislative issues. 

NASCC, the national membership organization for Youth Corps 

programs, exists to support and expand the network of some 80 

State and local programs in 30 States. Last year, NASCC conducted a comprehensive survey that, for the first time, fully documents the activities under way in the youth corps field. Year-round 

State and local corps programs involved over 13,000 young people 

in the last year with another 4,500 serving in summer programs; 

63 corps operating as of June JO, 1992, served a diverse cross-section of people at a total cost of $131 million, which included stipends and wages. Since June, 17 new corps have been launched, 

thanks to the grants from the Commission on National Community 

Service. It should be noted that less than 10 percent of the total 

funding for all the corps came from Federal sources. A complete 

break-out is attached to my written testimony. 

Consistent with the priorities of this Subcommittee, corps continue in the great tradition of the Civilian Conservation Corps of 

the 1930s to do a great deal of conservation work that otherwise 

could not be done and, I might add, probably would not be done. 

Corps members still cut and improve trails, plant trees, build 

bridges, restore recreational facilities in local and State parks, and 

their roles, of course, have even expanded into urban areas-hou:;,-

ing rehabilitation, recycling, and other environmental projects, as 

well as direct service to children and the elderly. Corps now help 

to conserve the fabric of our communities as well as our natural resources. 

Four years ago, the Student Conservation Association and 

NASCC collaborated to assist in environmental restoration efforts. 

Corps members were among the first help on the scene after the 

earthquake in San Francisco, the fire swrm :n Berkeley Hills, the 

riots in Los Angeles, and the hurricane in Miami. Even this week, 

over 100 young people are involved from Pennsylvania, Maryland, 

Michigan, and New Hampshire in Florida working under the 

Greater Miami Service Corps to do restoration projects. 
93 

State and local corps programs have also pursued opportunities 

to cooperate with Federal land managers. One of the Subcommittee's new members, as you well know, Representative Karan English, Arizona, knows about one of them. She sponsored the enabling 

legislation which created that project. This corps program is an 

outstanding example of the Federal-State level cooperation. 

We have also added a full description of that arrangement to the 

testimony. However, I think it is probably significant to pay special 

accolades to that joint partnership that took place between the Arizona Conservation Corps and the United States Forest Service 

Youth Conservation Corps in the renovation of some heavily used 

campgrounds in the Tonto National Forest. 

NASCC and its members are thrilled, of course, with President 

Clinton's interest in enabling more young people to participate in 

national service programs. We want the Congress to know what we 

have been telling the President's advisors, that any national service 

initiative must build in the basis of existing State and local programs, and it must indude opportunities for non-college-bound 

youth as well. Further, we believe that corps programs are among 

the best vehicles for providing young people with full-time service 

opportunities and numerous other benefits. 

Corps are community-based, which makes them responsible to 

local needs. They are capable of rapid expansion. Based on what 

our members have told us in the recent months about their long 

waiting list both for participants and for work projects, the corps 

could easily double in size within 3-6 months if funding should become available. We look forward to working with the Administration and the Congress to advance the national service movement 

and, along with it, the growth in vitality of youth corps. 

We are pleased that grants awarded last June by the Commission led directly to the establishment of some 17 State and local 

corps. However, the need to build State and local programs does 

not negate the need to expand youth service opportunities on Federal lands. We strongly support the revival of youth conservation 

corps in the national forests, parks, and wildlife refuges. We hope 

that when this occurs, provisions will be made to encourage the 

Federal land management agencies to involve State and local corps 

as well as national not-for-profit organizations like the Student 

Conservation Association. 

There is a huge, unlimited amount of work to do, and there are 

obviously a number of young people who are anxious to do it. State 

and local programs seek those opportunities to provide labor-intensive resources and services in new venues. For instance, many 

corps are already poised to carry transportation projects, enhancement in trail projects, environmental restoration in wetlands, 

urban stream corridors, public works projects, even to undertaking 

environmental cleanup activities that would enable the redevelopment and beautification of some of our most scarred urban areas. 

Full funding of !STEA legislation and attention to corps in public 

works legislation would make such projects more likely. Between 

us, we believe that we can amass the vast cadre of young people 

to tackle the backlog of conservation and restoration projects that 

have accumulated in recent years. This would also expand the opportunity to provide environmental educational opportunities, 
94 

thereby creating a greater appreciation for the respect of natural 

resources and outdoor learning experiences. 

In short, Mr. Chairman, we hope that as you and your colleagues 

consider how best to protect and revitalize our public lands, you 

will also find ways to capture the vast potential of young people 

and involve them in this important effort. 

In his inaugural address, President Clinton called the Nation to 

a season of service. For the 17,500 or so young people in the corps 

programs, that season has already begun. 

Thank you very much for the opportunity to share our thoughts 

with you. [Prepared statement of Mr. Williams follows:] 
~ N~ 

National Association of Service & Conservation Corps 

95 

STATBXl!!IT or EMILIO WILLIAMS 

DIRBCTOR, TBCBJIICAL ASSISTAJICB SERVICES 

NATIONAL ASSOCIATIOB or SERVICE AND COBSERVATION CORPS 

BBrORB TBB 

SUBCOMIIITTBB ON IIIATIONAL PAJlltS, rORBSTS AND PUBLIC LANDS 

BOUSE COMIIITTBB ON JIATURAL RBSOURCBS 

rBBRUARY 18, 1993 

Mr. Chairman, members of the Subcommittee and colleagues in 

the conservation and youth service community, I am pleased to be able to speak today on behalf of the national network 

of youth conservation and service corps programs. Given 

the new Administration's deep commitment to both national 

service and the environment, this is an exciting time for 

the corps. We at the National Association of Service and 

Conservation Corps look forward to the active leadership 

and involvement of the Subcommittee in the discussion of 

how best to expand opportunities for young people to serve their communities and nation. 

In my testimony this morning, I wish to point out briefly what we know about youth corps and where we are going as a 

movement, and then share our views on some relevant policy and legislative issues. 

NASCC 

Let me begin, though, with a word about NASCC. The 

National Association of Service and Conservation Corps is 

the national membership organization for youth corps 

programs. Corps programs organize young people into crews to accomplish needed conservation work and community 

service projects under the supervision of a caring adult. 

They also provide a comprehensive array of social, 

educational and job training services and assist young 

people in pursuing employment and/or further education. 

NASCC was formed in the waning days of the Young Adult Conservation Corps and now exists to support and expand the 

network of some 80 state and local corps programs in 30 

states, as well as the remaining Youth Conservation Corps 

programs within the U.S. Departments of Interior and 

Agriculture. 

666 Eleventh Stree t, NW • Suite 500 • Wllhlngton, DC 20001 • (202)737--6272 • (20Z)737--6277Fu 
96 

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Update on the Field 

Last year, NASCC conducted a comprehensive survey that for 

the first time fully documents the activities underway in 

the youth corps field. It also provides an accurate snapshot of the field prior to the small, but vital, 

infusion of new funding which became available through the 

National and Community Service Act of 1990. NASCC learned 

that year- round state and local corps programs involved over 13,000 young people last year with another ·4 , soo serving i n summer programs. We also learned that the 63 

corps, operating as of June 30, 1992, served a diverse 

cross-section of young people, at a total cost of $131 

million, including wages and stipends paid to corpsmembers. Less than 10% of the total funding c ame from federal sources, primarily JTPA and CDBG . Since June, 17 new corps 

have been launched thanks to grants from the Commission on National and Community Service . 

As part of its program of services, NASCC provides 

technical assistance to new and existing corps programs, and has been pleased to begin work with a new set of corps 

programs -- in Alaska, Kansas, Maryland, West Virginia, 

Colorado, Michigan, and Oregon -- funded in the first round 

of grants under the National and Community Service Act . NASCC is now working with support from the Commission to develop the next generation of leadership in the corps 

field. 

corps and conservation 

Consistent with the priorities of this Subcommittee, corps 

continue in the great tradition of the civilian 

conservation Corps of the l930's to do a great deal of 

conservation work that otherwise could not be done . Corpsmembers still cut and improve trails, plant trees, 

build bridges and restore recreational facilities in state and local parks. Recent years have seen the expansion of 

the role of corps, particularly in urban areas, into 

housing rehabilitation, recycling and other environmental 

projects as well as direct service to children and the 

elderly. Corps now help to conserve the fabric of our communities as well as our natural resources. 

state and local corps programs are entrepreneurial in 

character and remain vigilant fOr opportunities to provide 

their labor-intensive services in new venues. For 

instance, many corps are poised to carry out transportation 

enhancement and trails projects funded through the 

Intermodal surf ace Transportation Efficiency Act. Full 
97 

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funding of this legislation would make such projects more likely. Other corps look forward to the next generation of environmental restoration projects in wetlands and urban 

stream corridors, to carrying out appropriate components of 

public works projects and even to undertaking environmental 

clean-up activities that would enable redevelopment or beautification of some of our most scarred urban 

landscapes. 

In keeping with their nature as a readily-deployed labor 

force, corps programs from California to Florida continue 

to provide services in times of disaster. Four years ago, 

the student Conservation Association and NASCC collaborated to bring numerous crews to Yellowstone National Park to 

assist in environmental restoration efforts. Corpsmembers 

were among the first help on the scene after the earthquake in San Francisco, the firestorm in the Berkeley Hills, the 

riots in Los Angeles and the hurricane in Miami. This very 

week over 100 young people from corps in Michigan, New 

Hampshire and Pennsylvania are in Florida working under the 

leadership of the Greater Miami service Corps on several 

major hurricane recovery projects. 

Federal-State Cooperation 

State and local corps programs have also pursued 

opportunities to cooperate with Federal land managers and 

the remnants of the once-large Youth conservation Corps. One of this Subcommittee's new members, Representative 

Karan English of Arizona, knows about one of them, as she 

sponsored the enabling legislation which created the Arizona Conservation Corps. This corps program is an 

outstanding example of federal-state cooperation. A full 

description of that arrangement is attached to my written 

testimony, but I would like to highlight the joint program 

between the Arizona Conservation Corps and the U.S. Forest Service Youth Conservation Corps in the renovation of a 

heavily-used campground in the Tonto National Forest. 

I would like to conclude my testimony with remarks about some of the national policy issues that affect the ability of the corps to operate successfully in the conservation 

arena. 

National service 

NASCC and its members are thrilled, of course, with 

President Clinton's interest in enabling more young people to participate in national service programs. We want the 

Congress to know what we have been telling the President's 
98 

- 4 -

advisors -- that any national service initiative must build 

on the base of existing state and local programs and that 

it must include opportunities for non-collage bound youth. 

Further, we believe that corps programs are among the best 

vehicles for providing young people with full-time service 

opportunities and numerous other benefits. Among other 

things, corps are community-based which makes them 

responsive to real local needs. And they are capable of 

rapid expansion. Based on what our members have told us in recent months about their long waiting lists, for both 

participants and work projects, the corps could easily 

double in size within 3 to six months, if funding should 

become available. 

We look forward to working with the Administration and the 

congress to advance national service, and along with it, 

the growth and vitality of youth corps. 

Corps Programs on Fadaral Lands 

We are pleased that grants awarded last June by the 

Commission on National and community Service led directly to the establishment of some 17 new state and local corps 

and the expansion of others. However, the need to build state and local programs does not negate the need to expand 

youth service opportunities on federal lands. 

We strongly support the revival of the Youth Conservation 

Corps in national parks, forests and wildlife refuges. And we hope that, when this occurs, provision will be made to encourage the federal land management agencies to involve state and local corps as well as national non-profit youth 

service programs such as the Student Conservation 

Association. There is an unlimited amount of work to be 

done and a huge pool of young people who are anxious to do it. Between us, we can amass a vast cadre of young people 

to tackle the backlog of conservation and restoration 

projects that have accumulated in recent years. 

In short, Mr. Chairman, we hope that as you and your 

colleagues consi der how best to protect and revitalize our public lands, you will also find ways to capture the vast potential of young people and involve them in this 

important effort. 

In his Inaugural Address, President Clinton called the 

nation to a "season of service." For the 17,500 or so 

young people in corps programs, that Geason has already 

begun. 
~ 

~ National Association of Service a Conservation Corps 

99 

A MODEL OF FEDERAL-STATE COOPERATION: 

The Arizona Conservation Corps 

The ·Arizona Conservation Corps began operation in 1990 and is among the newest of 

the 18 statewide corps programs in the U.S. Startup of the year-round program, which 

employs 18-25 year old young adults to carry out projects on public lands, was the 

culmination of a two-year period of resource sharing and cooperation between federal, state, 

and local agencies. This complementary partnership remains strong today. 

Other states, and the federal agencies that operate within them, can adapt portions of 

the Arizona partnership experience as they engage in local planning and development of 

strong corps programs. The successful federal-state partnership in Arizona: 

Taps the experience of federal employees who have worked with human resource 

programs such as the Young Adult Conservation Corps (YACC) and Youth 

Conservation Corps (YCC); 

Enables federal employees to work full-time with the corps as loaned professionals, 

and part-time as volunteers; 

Overlaps with federal agency program thrusts in human resources, community 

involvement, partnerships, the use of volunteers, the use of job training funds, and 

continuing YCC programs; 

Builds upon the capacity of federal land-managing agencies including the U.S. 

Forest Service, the National Park Service, and the Bureau of Land Management; 

Takes advantage o[ geographic cjttumstances ·· the high percentage of federallymanaged land in the state; and 

Offers land managers near-tenn returns in the form of projects that the corps can 

complete, backlogs that the corps can help erase, revenue-generating campground 

development, and sound youth development programming. 

Forest Service professionals provided much of the initiative for a corps program •· 

one advised Karan English, then a state legislator who drafted enabling legislation; another 

organized a statewide information meeting on youth corps and persuaded representatives of 

more than 40 agencies to attend. Following the 1989 passage of enabling legislation, the 

BLM and Forest Service loaned professionals to plan the new corps program. Later, another 

forest and the corps arranged to share the cost of a field operations coordinator. Today, a 

national forest staff member serves as the chair of the corps' governing board. 

666 Eleventh Street, NW • Suite 500 • Washington, DC 20001 • (202)737-6272 • (202)737-6277Fax 

... ~t, 
National Association of 

Service & Conservation Corps 

100 

WHAT ARE YOUIH CORPS? 

Conservation and service corps - youth corps - harness the energy and idealism of 

young people to meet the needs of communities, states, and the nation. Corps 

programs engage young people, generally 16-23 years old, in paid, productive, fulltime work with visible benefits. Corps programs also prepare participants for the 

future. 

Corps work. Participants in corps programs - corpsmembers -- most often work in 

crews or teams of eight to twelve with a paid adult supervisor who sets and models 

clear standards of behavior. Youth corps crews undertake a wide range of work 

projects. Some are similar to the forestry and parks projects of the Ovilian 

Conservation Corps of the 1930s; others fill gaps in the services of urban parks, 

renovate housing, and assist human service agencies. All corps work projects allow 

young people to serve as community resources. Most corpsmembers receive a stipend 

or minimum wage for full-time work at least four days each week. 

Corps educate. Corpsmembers devote part of each week to improving their basic 

academic skills and/or earning a high school equivalency degree. Many corps also 

help corpsmembers learn the skills adults need to live successfully, such as budgeting, 

parenting, and remaining healthy. Corps programs encourage corpsmembers to_ 

engage in tangible acts of citizenship such as voting. Some corps offer end-program 

scholarships and bonuses. 

Corps: Widespread and growing. Year-round and summer youth corps operate in 19 

states and more than 60 cities and counties, serving more than 17,500 young people 

annually under a wide variety of administrative arrangements. Funding for corps 

comes from state, county and municipal appropriations, fee-for-service contracts, 

fonndations and corporations, as well as federal job training and community 

development block grants. The federal National and Community Service Act of 1990 

(PL 101-610) provides funding for corps through grants to states. 

666 Eleventh Street, NW • Suite 500 • Washington, DC 20001 • (202)737-6272 • (202)737-6277Fax 
National Association of Service a Conservation Corps 

101 

WHAT IS NASCC? 

The National Association of Service and Conservation Corps is the membership organization 

for youth corps programs. Since its founding in 1985, NASCC has served as an advocate, 

central reference point and source of assistance for the growing number of state and local youth 

corps around the country. In 1993, almost 80 youth corps are operating in 19 states and more 

than 60 cities and counties, serving more than 17,500 young people in both year-round and 

summer programs. 

NASCC's primary mission is two-fold: to strengthen the quality of existing youth corps 

programs and to promote the development of new ones. To accomplish this NASCC 

• maintains an Information Oearinghouse on youth corps policies, programs and practices, 

as well as the overall status of the youth corps field; 

• provides written and on-site technical assistance to new and operating corps and those in 

the planning stages; 

• sponsors an Annual Conference for youth corps staff and corpsmembers; 

• organizes professional development workshops for corps program directors and other 

staff on a range of policy, program and management topics; and 

• publishes an annual Youth Corps Profiles, a quarterly newsletter - Youth Can! --

and other information bulletins on issues of importance to the field. 

NASCC speaks for the corps in Washington, D.C. Through policy development and public 

affairs activities it works to bring the value of youth corps to the attention of policymakers, the 

media, philanthropic community and general public. NASCC is an active participant in 

national coalitions such as the Working Group on Youth Service Policy and the National Youth 

Employment Coalition. 

In cooperation with Public/Private Ventures, NASCC provides policy development support to 

the Urban Corps Expansion Project (UCEP), a national demonstration now underway in 12 

cities around the country. 

NASCC is a nonprofit corporation governed by a board of directors which is composed of corps 

program directors from throughout the U.S. and prominent citizens. NASCC receives support 

from membership dues and registration fees, as well as from foundations and corporations, 

including the AT&T Foundation, the DeWitt Wallace-Reader's Digest Fund, the William and 

Flora Hewlett Foundation, the W .K. Kellogg Foundation, and the Charles Stewart Mott 

Foundation. 

666 Eleventh Sb'eet, NW • Suite 500 • w~shington, DC 20001 • (202)737-6272 • (202)737-6277F.u 

• -- t,.'t.1'·· 11 
-

National Association of 

Service & Conservation Corps 

102 

CORPS PROGRAM MODELS 

Size, structure, sponsorship, funding source, leadership, and mission all vary 

from one corps program to another. State government began to create year-round and 

summer corps programs in the mid-1970's. Oties and counties began to organize 

youth corps several years later. In the mid-1980's, some operators of the summer 

youth employment program of the federal Job Training Partnership Act developed 

local and state youth corps. Still, corps programs fall generally in line with several 

models, the elements of which are listed here: 

State year-round corps programs are often: 

Managed by a land-managing or employment and training agency; 

Funded from general appropriations, bonds, and user fees; 

Designed to employ young adults ages 16-25 who are out of school; 

Set up to conduct projects on public lands or in public institutions; and 

Set up to involve residential or non-residential crews, or both. 

State and local summer corps programs are often: 

Managed by a state department in cooperation with local agencies such as 

Service Delivery Areas or parks departments; 

Funded through state funds and, especially, federal JTP A funds; 

Designed to operate for 8-12 weeks on a small number of projects; and 

Designed to employ youth as young as 14 in non-residential settings. 

Year-round urban corps programs are often: 

Funded by a broad mix of federal, state, and local government funds, as well 

as private sources and fee-for-service contracts; 

Designed to employ out-of-school youth from 16-23; 

Set up to conduct projects ranging from human service to conservation; 

Operated as a non-profit organization or as part of a larger nonprofit; 

Set up with the cooperation and assistance of city and state government; and 

Designed to provide comprehensive education and support services to 

corpsmembers. 

For more information about corps program diversity, contact NASCC. 

666 Eleventh Street, NW • Suile 500 • Washington, DC 20001 • (202)737-6272 • (202)737-6277Fax 

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103 

SUMMARY OF SURVEY FINDINGS 

INTRODUCTION 

During the summer and fall of 1992, NASCC undertook a baseline study of the 

corps to secure an accurate snapshot of the field prior to the impact of funding 

that has become available through the National and Community Service Act. 

This report is based on data provided by 58 of the 63 youth service and 

conservation corps in existence as of June 30, 1992. (A list of corps that did not 

respond to the Survey is provided in Appendix A.) It does not include any corps 

programs that have been launched or revived since then with grants awarded by 

the Commission on National and Community Service in June, 1992. (A list of 

these new corps is provided in Appendix B.) Nor does is include data on such 

national programs as the Student Conservation Association, YouthBuild, the Youth 

Conservation Corps operated by the U.S. Forest Service, or the Youth Volunteer 

Corps of America. (Descriptions of these programs are provided in the sect ion 

entitled Other Programs.) 

Most state corps reported on fiscal years ending June 30, 1992; most local corps 

reported on fiscal years ending December 31, 1991. 

FACTS ON THE CORPS 

NUMBER OF STA TE AND LOCAL YOUTH CORPS PROGRAMS 

# of State Year-Round Corps 

# of State Summer Corps 

TOTAL STATE: 

# of Local Year-Round Corps 

# of Local Summer Corps 

TOTAL LOCAL: 

TOTAL CORPS PROGRAMS: 

Reporting All Known 

Corps 

12 12 

..Ji ..Ji 

18 18* 

37 41 

...d ~ 

40 45 

58 63 

• NOTE: Two each in the states of Pennsylvania and Washington 

i 
104 

GEOGRAPHICAL DISTRIBUTION OF CORPS PROGRAMS 

# OF STATES THAT HAVE A STATE CORPS PROGRAM ONLY 

(Arizona, Iowa, Maine, Minnesota, Montana, 

New Hampshire and Ohio) 

# OF STATES THAT HAVE A LOCAL CORPS PROGRAM(S) ONLY 

(Colorado, D. C., Georgia, Louisiana, Massachusetts, 

Michigan, Mississippi, Missouri, Nevada, New York, 

North Carolina and Texas) 

7 

12 

# OF STATES THAT HAVE BOTH STATE & LOCAL CORPS PROGRAMS 8 

(California, Florida, Maryland, New Jersey, 

Oregan, Pennsylvania, Washington and Wisconsin) 

TOTAL # OF STATES WITH A CORPS PROGRAM(S) 

(26 States and the District of Columbia) 

LEVEL OF FUNDING AND SOURCES OF SUPPORT 

STATE LOCAL STATE & LOCAL 

YEAR-ROUND YEAR-ROUND SUMMER 

TOTAL FUNDING: $ 78,892.754 $ 45,431 ,235 $ 7,117,689 

Federal 

(JTPA & CDBG) 1.1% 14.4% 67.7% 

State 

Appropriation 

and Contracts 85.7% 17.9% 11.7% 

County/City 

Appropriation 

and Contracts 1.0% 22.2% 2.8% 

Private 

Foundation, 

Corporate & 

Individual .3% 21.6% 6.2% 

Contributions 

Fee-for-Service 11.9% 23.9% 11.6% 

100% 100% 100% 

ii 

27 

ALL CORPS 

$131,441,678 

9.3% 

58.3% 

8.4% 

8.0% 

16.0% 

100% 
105 

;;; 

011 

iii 
106 

FACTS ON CORPSMEMBERS 

FULL TIME POSITIONS 

# of Slots # of Actual Corpsmembers 

YEAR-ROUND PROGRAMS 

State 5,580 9,585 

Local ~ ~ 

TOTAL YEAR-ROUND FULLTIME: 8,576 13,284 

SUMMER PROGRAMS• 

State 2,329 2,316 

Local 1....§.ll ....Llfil. 

TOTAL SUMMER FULLTIME: 3,951 4,107 

TOTAL FULL TIME: 12.527 17,391 

• NOTE: Some year-round corps programs (ex .. East Bay Consuvation Corps and Minnesota Consuvation Corps) 

operate s pecial summer programs in addition to their year-round programming. The extra summer-only position$ 

are included in this count. 

PART TIME POSITIONS 

Four Year-Round Local Corps Programs - City Volunteer Corps, East Bay Conservation 

Corps, Los Angeles Conservation Corps and San Francisco Conservation Corps - operate 

part-time after school programs for middle school and junior high school students. These 

part-time slots total 508. · 

AVERAGE LENGTH OF STAY 

Twenty-seven of the 49 "year-round" corps responding to the survey actually provide a 12 

month program term. The average length of stay in these fuJl•year programs is 7 months. 

The other "year-round" programs offer six-month or nine-month program terms. Several of 

the corps operating on six•manth cycles allow promising corpsmembers to re·enlist for a 

second term. 

POST SERVICE BENEFITS 

Almost all corps provide job placement services to their corpsmembers. Seventeen of the 

58 responding corps also provide some kind of scholarship, tuition voucher and/or cash 

benefit upon the successful completion of the program reQuiremems. 

These range from as little as $250 up to $5,000. 

iv 
107 

CORPSMEMBER DEMOGRAPHICS 

ALL CORPS 

African Native 

American Asian Caucasian Hispanic American Other Total 

Male 22.1% 1.6% 24.1% 12.0% 1.4% .3% 61 .5% 

Female 15.7% 1.0% 12.4% 8.1% .9% .4% 38.5% 

TOTAL: 37.8% 2.6% 36.5% 20.1% 2.3% .7% 100% 

STA TE YEAR-ROUND 

African Native 

American Asian Caucasian Hispanic American Other Total 

Male 15.2% 1.4% 28.3% 10.8% 2.0% .4 % 58.1% 

Female 16.2% 1.0% 14.5% 8.3% 1.3% .6% 41.9% 

TOTAL: 31.4% 2.4% 42.8% 19.1% 3.3% 1.0% 100.% 

LOCAL YEAR-ROUND 

African Native 

American Asian Caucasian Hispanic American Other Total 

Male 36. 1% 2.5% 12.9% 15.3% .8% .3% 67.9% 

Female 16.5% 1.5% 7.8% 5.9% .2%, .2 % 32.1% 

TOTAL: 52.6% 4.0% 20.7% 21 .2% 1.0% .5% 100% 

STA TE & LOCAL SUMMER 

African Native 

American Asian Caucasian Hispanic American Other Total 

Male 25.3% .8% 26.6% 11.1% .5% 64.3% 

Female 11.8% .4% 12. 1% 11.1% .3% 35.7% 

TOTAL: 37. 1% 1.2% 38.7% 22.2% .8% 100.% 

V 
108 

Mr. VENTO. Thank you, Mr. Williams. 

We would like to hear from Frank Slobig, the director of policy 

and programs for Youth Service America. 

Mr. Slobig, welcome. 

STATEMENT OF FRANK J. SLOBIG 

Mr. SL0BIG. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

I have had the pleasure over the last decade of appearing a number of times before this Committee and share the frustration of 

having worked with the committee to pass the American Conservation Corps Act and then have it vetoed by a disinterested Presi~ 

dent. I now share with you the prospect of looking forward to a period of exhilaration and growth in the youth service field and take 

our cues in part from the President's challenge and his message 

last night. 

Let me augment my prepared remarks with some observations 

on a briefing that I was privileged to attend yesterday by the White 

House Office of National Service in which Eli Siegel, its director, 

indicated that the President's budget message--and I have not yet 

seen the specifics of it-includes a $6 billion national service initiative over the next 4 years. The details of it, in great part, are yet 

to be worked out even for this current year. 

However, as part of that briefing, a period of 15 or 20 minutes 

was spent brainstorming specifically options and opportunities that 

could be seized for this coming summer that would enable a fairly 

rapid build-up of activity. We have heard from a number of perspectives that the possibility for widespread absorption and expansion of existing programs is clearly a possibility, and I would urge 

this Committee, in its quick deliberations of its options and opportunities as it looks at the various programs over which it has jurisdiction, to look very carefully at ways in which some quick opportunities could be made to either redirect existing resources or give 

guidance to organizations that were here before us earlier of how 

they might possibly be able to contribute to a fairly quick first-step 

build-up of the Administration's new initiative. 

We, among other things, at Youth Service America for the last 

4 years have staffed a working group on youth service policy that 

the National Association of Service Conservation Corps and some 

49 other organizations participate in. I have appended to my testimony a set of recommendations that went to the transition team 

in late November and have been the basis of discussion since then 

with the White House Office of National Serve, and I would urge 

them for your consideration and deliberation as well as this Committee begins to look at options for the development of some legislation over the next term. 

Particularly included in that basic set of recommendations are 

three fundamental principles. First, what we look at be goal driven; 

that we think in terms of critical community unmet needs that can 

be pushed as the driving force for what we organize around. 

Second, we build on the existing decentralized network. We have 

heard very graphically and passionately from participants as well 

as administrators about the sound and solid work that is going on 

in States and communities all around the country, where the links 

with Federal resources and State resources by local, State, and 
109 

public and private nonprofit programs can be maximized effectively 

to build a better and bigger system of service across the country. 

Third, we think big and bold and entrepreneurial. The Working 

Group on Youth Service Policy has strongly urged the Administration to set a goal of a million young people in national service by 

the end of the decade. It is achievable; it is possible. The groundwork and fundamental basis of program network is there to build 

on. We have heard the numbers of people standing in line for "x" 

number of slots, and it is not difficult to do the math and to see 

that we could take the existing programs and explode them geometrically in a relatively short period of time. 

In terms of specific suggestions for this Committee, let me refer 

back to my testimony. First, it seems to me, in taking a fresh look 

at existing authorized legislation like the YCC legislation and other 

programs over which this Committee has jurisdiction, to look very 

carefully at how those can be crafted and clearly complementary to 

the Administration's national service initiative as its legislative 

framework takes place. Second, in a time of tight resources, to look 

for ways in which you can strongly urge and push and use your influence and even legislative capability to redirect resources either 

through specific set-asides of existing resources or simply by giving 

encouragement and direction to the Federal agencies that we heard 

testify earlier today about how they are using a modest amount of 

existing resources to continue to support YCC type programs in the 

absence of any dedicated authorized or appropriated resources. 

There are a lot of examples of how to do this that have gone on 

in other States. Pennsylvania, for example, over the last 4 years, 

under the direction of now Senator Harris Wofford when he was 

secretary of industry and labor there, has progressively built up a 

very vibrant decentralized network of youth corps programs in all 

28 service delivery areas across the State, using a combination of 

JTPA resources, some State resources, and some Federal funds 

through the National Community Service Act to do it, to create opportunities that are diverse in nature and in the composition of the 

program so that people from all ages and backgrounds can participate. They now have approximately 4,000 slots in Pennsylvania in 

the summertime that are programs to support many youth corps 

all across the State. Their projection for this coming summer is to 

double that to 8,000 slots. If you took that 8,000-slot example from 

Pennsylvania and extrapolated it to the rest of the country, you 

would have a summer program of youth corps in excess of 150,000 

young people. 

No other State is doing it the way Pennsylvania is doing it. No 

other State is thinking creatively, at least to my knowledge on any 

large-scale basis, about the way to tap into other resources. They 

have done it exclusively with JTPA money for all practical purposes. There probably are a variety of other pots of resources, Federal pots of resources, that go into the State of Pennsylvania and 

in every other State, that your Committee has jurisdiction over, 

that could conceivably be part of a redirected set of resources to do 

things in a different way. It seems to me the challenge is there on 

this whole theme of reinventing government to take what we have 

got and to do it in a more effective and creative way. They are 

doing it there; they are doing it in some other places. 
110 

Another example of the way in which resources were redirected 

in the last congressional session, working with the higher education committees in both the House and the Senate, legislation 

was passed in the Higher Ed Act that will change the nature of 

how college work-study funds are programmed beginning next 

school year. At least 5 percent of all college work-study funds-and 

that translates into $40-$45 million nationwide-starting next 

school year will have to be used for community service placements. 

A simple 5 percent set-aside on the college work-study funds enables that to happen. It gives you a precedent to think about in the 

ways in which you might want to think of how some other existing 

resource pots could be redirected. 

Third, I found it interesting this morning and asked Dick 

Staufenberger when he left the room whether he and his three 

Federal colleagues-Mr. Moffitt, Mr. Hartwig, and Mr. Robertsonhad ever been at the same table before. They had not. The Departments of Agriculture and Interior, by law, are ex officio members 

of the Commission on National and Community Service. In the last 

Administration, that meant nothing. There was no tangible participation on the part of those Departments collaboratively with the 

Commission on National and Community Service. 

In the new Administration I think that will change, but you, in 

your capacity as chair of this important committee, it seems to me, 

in your discussions with Secretary Espy and Secretary Babbitt, 

simply sending that message that it is important for their agencies 

to sit down and collaborate and talk to one another and see how 

they can share resources and maximize their collaborative potential, is a role in which you can exercise your own bully pulpit chairmanship. I found it fascinating and interesting that the first time 

the four of them ever sat at the same table was this morning. 

Finally, the National Community Service Act itself is up for reauthorization this year. It is likely to be subsumed into a much 

broader, more comprehensive Clinton Administration national service initiative. But whatever the framework of legislation is that 

comes forward with the Administration to drive their national service agenda, it seems to me the opportunity is now for you and your 

colleagues on this Committee that over the last decade have labored long and hard in support of Conservation Corps legislation 

to be part of a broadened constituency, particularly in the House, 

because, let's face it, in 1989 and 1990 when the National Community Service Act passed, it passed in great part because of the impetus on the Senate side and not on the House side. And it is critically important that Members like yourself and Members that we 

heard from this morning-Ms. English, and Ms. Shepherd, and others here on this Committee-be part of an informed and energized 

and strong advocacy caucus within the House to push and support 

bold and comprehensive national service legislation. 

I would urge you all in the coming months to get out and see programs in your districts, experience them, feel them, taste them, 

touch them. That is what converts people into passionate advocates 

for service. They are there in virtually every district that is represented on the Subcommittee, and we will be happy to work with 

your staff to help identify specific programs and opportunities in 

which you can engage young people and they can engage you. 
111 

The young people that were here this morning are just a pale reflection of the enormous energy and commitment that is out there 

across the country that is looking to you for vision and leadership 

and looking to you to listen and to share their dreams, and I urge 

you to do it. 

Thank you very much. 

[Prepared statement of Mr. Slobig follows:] 
112 

Testimony 

by 

Frank J. Slobig 

Director of Policy and Programs 

Youth Service America 

before the 

YOUTH 

SERVICE 

AMERICA 

House Subcommittee on National Parks, Forests, and Public Lands 

on 

Youth Conservation Corps 

February 18, 1993 

1101 15th Street. NW Su,1e 200 Wa5h1ngt0<1. DC 20005 

202."296-2992 • FAX 202 296-4030 
113 

Good morning, Mr. Chairman and members of the subcommittee. My 

name is Frank Slobig, Director of Policy and Programs for Youth 

Service America. YSA is a national, independent, non-profit 

organization based in Washington, D.C. Our purpose is to promote the 

development of a national network of quality youth service programs 

in order that every young American from five to twenty-five has the 

opportunity to participate in contributing to the betterment of their 

community and country. We put a premium on participation by young 

people of all backgrounds serving together in organized, sustained 

programs that address critical community needs. 

I have had the pleasure of testifying before this subcommittee on 

numerous other occasions over the past decade on youth 

conservation legislation. I have shared the frustration of working 

hard for passage of an American Conservation Corps bill, only to 

have it pocket vetoed by a disinterested president. I have also 

experienced the exhilaration of the enactment of the National and 

Community Service Act of 1990 which incorporated much of the 

work initiated by this subcommittee during the 1980s. YSA looks 

forward to working with you and the new administration to craft a 

new national service system that builds on the best of what we 

have. 

The youth community service arena is where I spend my time. Youth 

Service America is dedicated to building an ethic of service in 

America by striving to provide young people of all ages and 

backgrounds with opportunities to begin a lifelong commitment to 

community improvement and civic participation. We have tried 

doggedly and with a good deal of success to promote a big picture 

approach which tries to connect the natural resource communities 

and program network with the broader youth service field. 
114 

Programs like the Minnesota Conservation Corps, the Pennsylvania 

Conservation Corps, and the California Conservation Corps and other 

state and local conservation corps with a presence in the districts 

of many of this subcommittee's members represent significant 

segments of the full time youth service field. Young people of very 

different backgrounds have responded to similar challenges. 

Whether its the "Serve, Earn and Learn" motto of the Pennsylvania 

Conservation Corps or the "Hard Work, Low Pay, Miserable 

Conditions" slogan of the California Conservation Corps, program 

participants share the sense of empowerment and accomplishment in 

tackling difficult tasks. They truly understand what full time youth 

service is about. 

Participation in a year round or summer youth corps can be a 

transforming experience. There are philosophical and programmatic 

differences between effective youth corps and other traditional 

work experience programs. The former see young people . as critical 

resources in a human resource and community development effort 

rather than at risk kids with multiple problems needing remediation. 

One focuses on strengths, while the other more often than not 

focuses on weaknesses. A young person who is fortunate enough to 

participate in a summer corps quickly realizes , "I am somebody. I 

can do something. People value the contribution I can make." Their 

own self-perception is transformed. There are no losers. They are 

all winners. The solidarity and 'esprit de corps' of the group bolster 

and support those experiencing some difficulty. The net impact can 

be dramatically different from most traditional individual 

placements. I am not prepared to provide sophisticated chi-square, 

regression analysis, or control group impact data, but I can speak 

convincingly as an informed youth service professional who has had 

a programmatic ear to the ground for the past twenty-five years. I 

can also speak passionately as the father of five children who have 

all been very involved in service programs. 
115 

My three older sons --twenty, nineteen, and seventeen, have all 

participated in lull-time youth corps. My oldest son, now a 

sophomore at Boston College, spent a year after high school in City 

Year in Boston. Most City Year participants are from the Boston area 

but about fifteen percent are from elsewhere. It is a program which 

unlike many others puts a premium on diversity. The basic challenge 

is a straightforward one. Okay, you have completed your Junior or 

senior year, or even your dropout year, now what are you going to do 

for your "city year." Young people are challenged to dedicate a year 

of their life in giving back to the city. It is an urban Peace Corps 

appealing to a broad mix of young people of all racial, ethnic, and 

socioeconomic backgrounds to come together for the common good. 

For my oldest Justin, ii was the most challenging, demanding, 

testing, rewarding year of his life. The post service scholarship 

made it possible to go on to Boston College. 

His younger nineteen year old brother followed him to Boston two 

years later and is currently more than half way through his City Year 

experience. The two traveled very different paths. Unlike his older 

brother who endured six rigorous years of junior and senior high 

school at a small academically demanding independent school, the 

nineteen year old is a learning disabled dropout who has not yet 

completed high school. For him, City Year was a chance to escape 

the lure of the streets of 0.C. and make a fresh start. It has been a 

real challenge. Without the support and encouragement of his team 

he might have dropped out. He has grown enormously in the past six 

months. He hopes to complete his GED before the end of the year. 

There is a magical quality about the program that makes retention 

unusually high compared to other youth corps. Program dropouts are 

few and far between. I look forward to Joshua's City Year graduation 

in June. 

The third source of insight to the youth corps experience is my 

seventeen year old high school senior, Zachary. He was one of the 

pioneer corpsmembers of the D.C. Service C'.lrps pilot program the 

summer before last. D.C. Service Corps is now a year around program 
116 

that like City Year follows an academic calendar. They no longer 

have a summer component--a real limitation from my perspective. 

So this past summer, Zachary spent two and a half months with the 

Los Angeles Conservation Corps in an expanded summer program 

funded in part by the supplemental urban aid package. They were 

mostly all South Central black and brown young people. My son was 

the only white Anglo corpsmember. For many of the black and brown 

participants it was the first sustained contact they had ever had 

with a young white . . It was an educational and rewarding summer. 

Youth Service America is committed to expanding the opportunities 

available to young people to participate in service. In supporting 

President Clinton's stirring call for a rededication to citizenship 

through service, our board of directors along with the boards of nine 

other national and local youth organizations with former Governor 

Richard Celeste of Ohio acting as spokesperson conveyed a 

statement focusing on the following points to the new 

admin istration : 

Enthusiastic support for the significant expansion 

of the youth service field through the National 

Service Trust, with the caution that any expansion 

build upon the broad range of high quality programs 

that exist today. Large influx of federal monies 

should not have the unintended effect of weakening 

national and local organizations that currently 

stand at the heart of the youth service movement. 

Any new plan should include support for building 

the infrastructure of national and communitybased agencies so they may accommodate the 

massive influx of volunteers any expanded national 

service initiative would require. 
117 

Any expanded national service plan must be 

developed, implemented and run with significant 

and ongoing input from young people themselves. 

Young people should not only be doing direct 

service; they should be involved in decision-making 

and challenged to be the leaders not tomorrow, but 

today. Young leaders who represent youth service 

organizations, more than anyone, understand the 

critical issues facing youth today. . They should be 

centrally involved in the discussion. 

While the emphasis on national service for high 

school graduates, college students and out-of. 

school youth is important, the Clinton initiative 

must also include support for the efforts of 

schools and community-based organizations 

reaching students in elementary and secondary 

schools to make service an integral part of growing 

up. 

Youth service has enormous potential for dispelling 

prejudice and building bridges of understanding. 

Any expanded national service program should 

provide a common · and meaningful experience for 

young people of all different races, cultures, and 

socioeconomic backgrounds. Youth service is an 

experience that encourages an ongoing respect for 

diversity and offers the promise of a more tolerant 

nation. 

A shared belief that service connects all 

Americans to something greater, that a 

commitment to helping others can heal our spirits, 

strengthen our communities, and transform our 

nation. 
118 

These are all points that this subcommittee should reflect on 

seriously as it contemplates its role in advancing the broader 

agenda of national service. 

How can this subcommittee make it possible for more young 

people to be involved in high quality, well run youth corps? 

Let me suggest a few things you might consider. 

First, take a fresh look at the Youth Conservation Corps 

legislation, particularly once the legislative framework of the 

Clinton National Service Initiative becomes clear, to see what 

changes might be in order to provide a more compelling 

rationale for an appropriation. The three principles embodied 

in the attached set of recommendations to the Clinton 

administration would be a good place to start, namely that 

programs should be goal drjyen. build on the exjstjng 

decentralized network. and be bold and eotrenreoeuriaL 

Second, in a time of declining resources look for ways to 

redirect existing funds to support the creation or expansion of 

programs. For example, in Pennsylvania over the last four 

years a network of summer youth corps has been created by 

dedicating an annually increasing amount of Job Training 

Partnership Act dollars. There are no doubt numerous 

authorized and funded programs under your jurisdiction that 

would lend themselves to similar approaches. You may, in 

fact, want to explore specific set asides in programs that 

could be used to contract with state or local youth corps to 

carry out required work. You have a precedent in the 

reauthorization of the Higher Education bill last session. 

Changes were made in the use of college work study funds that 

go into effect in school year 93/94. which mandate that at 

least 5% of all college work study funds have to be used for 

community service placements. 
119 

Third, the Secretaries of Interior and Agriculture are exofficio members of the Board of the Commission on National 

and Community Service. In the past administration that meant 

very little in tangible terms. Why not communicate to 

Secretary Babbitt and Secretary Espy expressing your keen 

interest in exploring how departmental resources could be 

used to support youth corps and urging them to take an active 

and direct role in the work of the Commission. 

Finally, the National and Community Service Act is up for 

reauthorization. Interest and involvement in its passage in 

1990 on the House side was modest at best. Work with us to 

develop an informed and supportive list of co-sponsors for the 

reauthorization or for whatever more comprehensive, all 

encompassing legislative initiative comes forth from the 

administration. Get out and visit programs in your district. If 

you don't know about them, we can get you the information. 

Challenge the young people. Support them. Share your vision 

with them of a country renewed and listen to their dreams. 

We are prepared to work closely with your staff over the next 

several months on the suggestions we have made. Thank you 

for the opportunity to appear before you today. 
120 

TO: President-elect Bill Clinton 

FROM Youth Service America's Working Group 

on Youth Service Policy 

DATE: November 13, 1992 

RE: A System of National Service and the New Cove~anl 

EXECUTIVE SUMMARY 

Congratulations on your victory; thank you for your call to public service in general and 

youth service in particular. 

We, representatives of America's rapidly growing, grass-roots based youth service 

movement, look forward with excitement and anticipation to your administration. We 

stand ready to work closely with you and your Transition Team to build a bold, 

community-based system of service which incorporates your proposed National Service 

Trust, service and conservation corps and school, college-based, and graduate school 

service-learning proposals into a system that asks and enables ALL Americans to serve. 

We believe that such a system offers an efficient, effective means to build the New 

Covenant, 

WHAT: We urge you to build a bold, mission-driven, diverse, locally operated system 

of service in which the federal government is a partner, catalyst and 

WHY: 

HOW: 

leverager of local resources and commitment. We should avoid monolithic 

federal efforts which have foundered or failed to reach their potential in the 

past. 

We believe that youth are a vital and underutilized resource for community 

building: 

•Youth Service is a powerful way of building understanding and teamwork across 

racial, ethnic, gender and regional lines. 

• Youth Service can produce immediate tangible rewards for America's 

communities while preparing youth for participation in a world-class work force 

and a revitalized citizenry. 

•Youth Service is an underutilized resource for housing rehabilitation, health care, 

environmental clean-up, care for the elderly and above all for a comprehensive 

rebirth of America's communities. 

• Youth Service is a promising means of restructuring and transforming schools 

and youth-serving organizations. 

We have convened a small task force of practitioners, policy makers and 

youth, It includes Senator Harris Wofford and Governor Dick Celeste. We 

stand ready to prepare a proposal that would be read y for enactment and 

action in the first 100 days. It will build on your proposals and incorporate 

the best experience and thinking in the field. 
121 

A CLINTON NATIONAL SERVICE SYSTEM 

A crisis for our times: 

Every time that America has faced a major crisis- from the Civil War to the Great 

Depression to World War II to the Cold War- the youth of America, organized as the 

armed forces, the Civilian Conservation Corps, VISTA, or the Peace Corps, have been 

called to service. We believe that the dissolution of the American community and 

institutions that have sustained it, from the family to the local school, is such a crisis for 

our times. We believe that once again the youth of America should be called to service in 

a form appropriate to the time and circumstances. We suggest that a comprehensive 

system of youth service for a Clinton-Core Administration can be the program that 

defines the era, as the Peace Corps was for the Kennedy-Johnson Administration. 

Based on our experience in operating youth service programs we suggest three principles 

that should guide the development of a national youth service system: 

L Goal Driven. 

D. Build on existing local, state and federal initiatives. 

m Comprehensive and bold in scope; entrepreneurial and 

decentralized in administration. 

L Goal Driven. 

The mission of the national service system should be rebuilding America's 

communities and restoring its civic spirit. The organizing principle·of a Clinton -

Gore service initiative should be the problems that it can solve and the energy that 

it can release. Its administrative structure, scope and governance should flow from 

its mission. Youth service should serve Clinton-Core Administration priorities; 

service is not an end in itself, however much we believe in it. 

We suggest four basic goals: 

• Racial Reconciliation: A national system of youth service provides a means of 

bringing a dangerously divided America together around common experiences and 

aspirations. 

•Citizenship: Youth Service provides a means of educating our young people so 

that civic participation and life-long community service becomes the common 

expectation and experience of every American. 

•Community Rebuilding: Youth Service unleashes talents and energy to meet 

pressing local needs. It can help rebuild the physical and human infrastructures of 

neighborhoods and reconnect America's youth to their communities. 

•Youth Opportunities: Youth have been overlooked and underestimated in the 

last decade. Youth service provides them a means to earn their way back to 

prominence. Through youth service youth of all backgrounds - including the 

"forgotten half' - can gain the experience in teamwork, problem-solving and civic 

engagement lhat a world class workforce and effective cilizenry demand. 
122 

Such a system must be open to ALL youth, including the non<ollege bound, the disabled 

and the disadvantaged. It must start very early so that the ethic of service is instilled in 

the earliest grades and the power of youth service captured for the very young. 

IL Build on Existing Local, State and Federal Initiatives. 

In an era which finds General Motors, Sears and Roebuck and the Soviet Union in 

decline or in extinction, while Chaparral Steet The Gap and Singapore thrive, the 

principle of diverse, small, locally responsive organizations seems self-evident. 

Over the past decade assisted by a growing number of national nonprofit youth 

service organizations, America's grass roots have spawned a vigorous, diverse, 

entrepreneurial network of youth service programs. The Commission on 

National and Community Service , organized as a grant-making and standards 

setting commission, has added federal purpose and resources without a large new 

federal bureaucracy and without threatening local ownership and investment in 

operating programs. 

The building blocks of such a system include: 

•The National and Community Service Act of 1990: This landmark legislation 

funds full-and part-time service programs run by schools, colleges, local and state 

government, and non-profit organiz.ations. 

•VISTA Peace Coq,s: Since the 1960s, VISTA and the Peace Corps have provided 

opportunities for service. Approximately 7500 youth serve each year. 

• National Youth Seryjce lnfr:astmcture Ox:ganizations: Through the efforts of groups like Youth Service America, the National Association of Service and 

Conservation Corps, campus Compact, the National Youth Leadership Council, 

the Campus Outreach Opportunity League and others that make up the Working 

Group on Youth Service Polley, a diverse network of national, state, and local 

organiz.ations and programs have created a growing and vibrant, decentralized 

national service network. 

•State and Local Youth Cocps: Taking a cue from the Civilian Conservation Corps 

of the 19305 local, slate, and federally funded youth corps have emerged across the 

country providing full-time summer and year-round service opportunities to more 

than 20,000 youth each year. 

•School- and Campus-based Programs: At the urging of a host of prominent 

educators, schools and colleges across the country have greatly expanded servicelearning programs for students. 

•Youth Organizations: Community based youth organizations, such as YMCA's, 

Girl Scouts and 4-H have expanded their service focus in recent years and play a 

vital role during non-school hours. 
123 

m. Comprehensive and Bold in Scope; Entrepreneurial and Decentralized in 

Administration. 

We believe that a dramatic, comprehensive and chaJJenging initiative launched in 

the first 100 days is important. The goal of placing 1,000,000 young people in sustainable full-time service by the end of the decade is achievable. The goal of 

having every young person in America experience the fierce joy of service and rich 

rewards of being recognized as a contributing member of the community is 

attainable. As your experience with Boys State led to a lifetime of public service, 

opportunities for all youth can build a ~long ethic of service. 

The impact of a million strong service system could be dramatic. For example: 

• 20(Ml00 Youth Service Volunteers could be a major catalyst to assure that every 

community in America has a system of after-school care and that quality pre-school 

programs reach every child. 

• 100,000 Youth Service Volunteers could bring our rates of vaccination and prenatal care back of world class standards. 

• 100,000 Youth Service Volunteers backed by a revitalized Environmental 

Protection Agency and linked to state and local environmental and conservation 

agencies, could vastly increase the monitoring and public education capacity of our 

environmental efforts. 

• 300,000 Youth Service Volunteers, working in state and local corps, could assist in 

the conservation and restoration of our valuable public lands, in rebuilding the 

infrastructure of America's inner cities, and improving the daily lives of America's 

neglected children, elderly, and sick and disabled citizens. 

• 300,000 Youth Service Volunteers organized and trained as a Teachers Corps 

could be a major force in meeting America's declared goal of having the best 

education system in the world by the year 2000. 

We believe that national service programs of the past flourished and vanished (Civilian 

Conservation Corps and Young Adult Conservation Corps) or never reached their full 

potential (Peace Corps and VISTA) because they were conceived and operated as federal 

programs for which local communities never assumed ownership or responsibility. Our 

experience confirms that local communities will invest in youth service programs if 

asked and challenged. A locally rooted program avoids the inevitable charges of 

enhancing federal bureaucracies, mobilizes local corporate and philanthropic investment 

and builds its own political support from localities with a stake in the program. 

In conclusion, we believe that a system of national service can help to make all American 

communities a place called Hope. We look forward to meeting with your Transition 

Team in the near future and to working with you to make this happen. 
124 

WORKING GROUP ON YOUI1f SERVICE POLICY 

American Jewish Committee 

American Youth Policy Forum 

B'nai B'rith Youth Organization 

Campus Compact 

Campus Outreach Opportunity League 

Child Welfare League of America 

Children's Defense Fund 

City Volunteer Corps 

City Year 

Oose Up Foundation 

Community Service Network of New Hampshire 

Constitutional Rights Foundation 

Council of Chief State School Officers 

Council of Great City Schools 

OC Service Corps 

East Bay Conservation Corps 

Generations United 

Georgetown University Volunteer and Public Service Center 

Girl Scouts of the USA 

Magic Me 

Maryland Student Service Alliance 

Massachusetts Youth Service Alliance 

National Association for Public Interest Law 

National Association of Secondary School Principals 

National Association of Service and Conservation Corps 

National Center for Service Leaming in Early Adolescence 

National Collaboration for Youth 

National Crime Prevention Council 

National Governors' Association 

National Service Secretariat 

National Society for Experiential Education 

National Women's Law Center 

National Youth Leadership Council 

PennServe 

Pennsylvania Conservation Corps 

People For the American Way 

Public Allies 

Public/Private Ventures 

Thomas Jefferson Forum 

United States Student Association 

United Way of America - Young America Cares! 

U.S. Department of Agriculture Extension 4-H 

YES! Youth Engaged in Service 

YMCA of the USA 

Youth Action 

Youth Service America 

Youth Service America's Youth Action Council 

Youth Volunteer Corps of America 

YouthBuild U.S.A 
125 

Mr. VENTO. Thank you. 

I might say in response that I understand that Mr. Siegel, who 

is directing this effort in the White House, asked Secretary Babbitt 

to identify someone in the Department and he volunteered himself. 

Mr. SLOBIG. Right. He said that yesterday. 

Mr. VENTO. I think probably it is just a different level of interest 

that exists, and I think that is something with regard to the Forest 

Service and/or the land management agencies where they have 

someone that really is identified. But it is a telling point when you 

don't get this type of collaboration, and things tend to fall between 

the cracks when that happens. 

Let's hear from the last two individuals I invited to participate 

on this panel to expedite matters. We have Larry Fonnest, the director of the Minnesota Conservation Corps. 

Welcome, Larry. It has been a while since we have had a chance 

to greet one another. 

STATEMENT OF LARRY P. FONNEST 

Mr. FoNNEST. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate the opportunity to appear here today to talk about the Conservation Corps 

movement. 

As you noted, I am the director of the Minnesota Conservation 

Corps, which is a program of the State Department of Natural Resources. The Minnesota Conservation Corps, MCC, was established 

in 1981 and is one of the four longest-serving corps in the Nation. 

In its 12-year history, thousands of young Minnesotans have had 

the opportunity to serve, learn, and earn as they have worked to 

conserve the State's natural heritage. 

MCC has a dual mission of providing productive natural resources work experience and service learning opportunities to its 

members. At the heart of the program's mission is the fast-held belief that young people are the resources to be developed and not the 

problems that are to be solved. 

The Corps operates a residential summer program for 15- to 18-

year-old boys and girls and a year-round component for 18- to 26-

year-olds. Entry-level corps members earn the Federal minimum 

wage and are not eligible for benefits other than Workers Compensation. While the Corps is open to all of the State's young people, preference is given to disadvantaged youth, youth of color, females, and those who otherwise fall within Minnesota's forgotten 

half. The latter were identified in a legislative task force report as 

those youth 16-24 years of age who are unlikely to attend college 

and that are left behind in comparison to Minnesota's remembered 

half. 

One of the Corps' important recruitment and programming initiatives centers on hearing-impaired youth. For the past decade, 

crews of hearing-impaired youth and their adult interpreters have 

been quietly at work in Minnesota State forests and parks. Their 

presence has enriched camp life with hearing and hearing-impaired 

youth and staff learning about and from each other. The initiative 

was honored at the 1993 National Association of Service and Conservation Corps Conference for exemplary programming and as a 

model for the corps community. The initiative helps to underscore 
126 

the unique adaptability ofthe corps model in meeting new challenges and its ability to embrace diversity. 

MCC affords corps members the experience of success, providing 

a nurturing and meaningful service placement under competent 

leadership. Utilizing on-the-job formal and informal classroom sessions, corps members are provided training opportunities with an 

aim to developing their basic work behaviors, self-management, 

marketable skills, and self-esteem. Young adult corps members 

lacking a high school diploma are required to pursue a GED. Corps 

members also have advancement potential within the Corps. Many 

crew leader positions are filled by participants who have risen 

through the ranks. All such candidates attend the MCC Leadership 

Development Program in preparation for their new assignments. 

The Minnesota Corps is a program in process. We were established, as I noted, in 1981 on a shoestring budget, and we have 

grown in fits and starts since that time, and not without budget 

cuts. In 1992, the program was considered for elimination by the 

Department of Natural Resources as part of an emergency budgetcutting strategy. Thanks to Governor Arne Carlson's leadership 

and strong commitment to youth programs, bipartisan support in 

the State legislature, and a very vocal public, the MCC survived, 

but not without sustaining a $100,000 budget reduction. The Corps' 

1993 budget of $1.7 million is again facing potential reduction as 

Minnesota struggles with a revenue shortfall. At this time, the 

Corps receives no direct Federal funding. 

MCC's budget experience is not uncommon in the corps community. In the past 2 years, 4 State corps have been eliminated due 

to State budget shortfalls. Funding is oftentimes tenuous, and energy that would be better spent on corps member and project development is diverted to fundraising. The accomplishment of the 

Corps is considerable. In Minnesota, it is estimated that for every $1 invested in the program, $1.46 is returned in public service. In 

State fiscal year 1992, 307 MCC corps members worked 178,000 

service hours, realizing accomplishments valued at $2.5 million. 

To underscore the scope of the MCC's work, I want to share with 

you the accomplishments of one of our signature projects. The Su- perior Hiking Trail follows the ridge line along the north shore of 

Lake Superior. MCC is the primary work force on the trail and has 

constructed approximately 100 miles of treadway and bridging. 

When completed, the trail will stretch 250 miles from the Canadian 

border to the city of Duluth. Spur trails are also being developed 

from the main trail corridor down to resorts and communities along 

the north shore. The Superior Hiking Trail is already having a significant impact on the tourism economy in that area of the State. 

In addition to working for the various divisions of the Minnesota 

Department of Natural Resources, MCC has established working 

relations with several Federal agencies, including the Forest Service, National Park Service, and the Fish and Wildlife Service. 

Using summer and young adult crews, MCC projects have ranged 

from stabilizing buildings at the historic Rabideau Civilian Conservation Corps Camp in the Chippewa National Forest, to site restoration and rehabilitation of erosion sites on the St. Croix Scenic 

Riverway, to timber stand improvement and Superior Hiking Trail 

construction in the Superior National Forest. 
127 

The Corps is also piloting an award-winning program in cooperation with the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service's Minnesota Valley, 

Sherburne, Rice, and Tamarac Refuges. The Youth In Natural Resources Program is a direct spin-off of the MCC and is designed to 

interest youth of color between the ages of 15 and 18 in career and 

educational opportunities in natural resources management. Participants learn about numerous professional career options and corresponding educational requirements from DNR and U.S. Fish and 

Wildlife Service field staff. The youth then perform work projects 

associated with those professions. In any given week, a participant 

may be introduced to fish biology, then go out and perform a fish 

shocking project identifying and measuring specimens, and then 

visit the College of Natural Resources at the University of Minnesota to learn about campus life and preparatory course work. 

In the summer of 1992, 76 youth and staff of color representing 

the Native American, Hispanic, African American, and Asian communities participated. The program operated in the Twin Cities of 

St. Paul/Minneapolis and the Mille Lacs and Leech Lake Reservations. The MCC's recent grant application to the Commission on 

National and Community Services would also have involved the 

Forest Service. The application had as its primary objective the establishment of a residential training academy at the Forest Service's vacated Isabella Ranger Station. The academy would have 

served as an intake and training center for all incoming young 

adult corps members. In exchange, three 6-person crews were to be 

permanently stationed there to assist Federal agents with projects 

in the Superior National Forest and the nearby Boundary Waters 

Canoe Area. 

Having worked in other youth employment agencies and having 

worked my way up the MCC ranks from summer crew leader to the 

position that I now hold, I can attest to the real value of the corps 

experience. I am thoroughly convinced that the State and local 

corps have the potential for conserving the natural and human resources of our Nation. The single most limiting factor is the lack 

of stable and sufficient funding. What can make the difference is 

a Federal partner with a long-term vision and a commitment to our 

natural resources and to conservation corps. 

I can envision a much closer working relationship with Federal 

land management agencies and State and local corps. That relationship, whether it is contractual in nature or a full partnership, 

represents a win/win formula both for our natural heritage and our 

youth. Hundreds of thousands of service hours of important resource work are going unattended to while vast numbers of our Nation's youth wait, wait for an opportunity to learn how to work, to 

be contributing members of their community, and to be called. I 

urge the Congress to issue that call to service and engage our 

young people in rebuilding and reinvigorating the Nation. 

In closing, Mr. Chairman, I would like to extend an invitation to 

you personally to visit the Minnesota Conservation Corps this summer, and, again, I wish to thank you for this opportunity. 

[Prepared statement of Mr. Fonnest follows:] 
128 

STATEMENT OF 

LARRY P. FONNEST, DIRECTOR 

MINNESOTA CONSERVATION CORPS 

MINNESOTA DEPARTMENT OF NATURAL RESOURCES 

BEFORE THE 

UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 

NATURAL RESOURCES COMMITTEE 

SUB-COMMITI'EE ON NATIONAL PARKS, FORESTS AND PUBLIC LANDS 

FEBRUARY 18,1993 
129 

STATEMENT OF 

LARRY P. FONNEST, DIRECTOR 

MINNESOTA CONSERVATION CORPS 

MINNESOTA DEPARTMENT OF NATURAL RESOURCES 

BEFORE THE 

UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 

NATURAL RESOURCES COMMITTEE 

SUB-COMMITTEE ON NATIONAL PARKS, FOREST AND PUBLIC LANDS 

FEBRUARY 18, 1993 

Mr. Chairman, thank you for the opportunity to appear before the 

sub-committee today in support of the conservation corps movement. 

I am Larry P. Fonnest, the director of the Minnesota Conservation 

Corps, a program of the Minnesota Department of Natural Resources 

(DNR). 

The conceptual beginnings of today's conservation corps movement 

can be traced to Wil.l.iam James' 1910 essay "The Moral. Equivalent of 

War"and his call for a peacetime service force which would unite 

Americans in a common effort to preserve the natural environment. 

Franklin Roosevelt's volunteer, "Tree Army", better known as the 

Civilian Conservation Corps (CCC), answered that call during the 

Great Depression. In proving James' theory sound, the CCC 

employed, trained, and educated some 3,240,000 disadvantaged young 

2 
130 

men and, in the process, rebuilt the infrastructured of the nation. 

In addition to providing an opportunity to corps members and their 

families for a new lease on life, a sampling of the accomplishments 

of those young men underscores the tremendous contributions of the 

CCC: 

- 63,246 buildings constructed 

- 800 state parks established 

- 3,900 historic structures restored 

- 95,592 acres of trees planted in logged out areas 

- 2,757,419 acres of forest treated for diseased trees 

- 7622 impounding dams build 

- 28,087 miles of foot/horse trails cleared 

The list could go onl 

With the onset of World War II, the CCC program was dismantled but, 

not forgotten. Twenty-eight years later, in 1970, the Federal 

Youth Conservation Corps (YCC) was established. It was a summer 

work program for 15 to 18 year old youth. The Young Adult 

Conservation Corps (YACC) followed in 1977 and was a year-round 

program for 16 to 23 year old men and women. Administered by the 

U.S. Departments of Interior and Agriculture and in cooperation 

with state governments, YACC emphasized enrolling disadvantaged 

youth while YCC, a much smaller and more middle-class program, did 

not. 
131 

The true value of these programs was not well known, due to limited 

public awareness. According to Thomas N. Bethell's 1984 essay, 

"Crippling the American conservation Corps," the corps lacked a 

champion. "No one ••• in the Carter administration's (leadership) 

seemed to be directly in charge, nor did anyone seem (inclined) to 

tell its success stories to the public, the press, or influential 

members of Congress. Responsibility for projects was spread so 

haphazardly among so many federal and state agencies that no 

coherent evalution ever took place." 

The YCC/YACC programs employed 700,000 young Americans between 1970 

and their demise in 1982. careful evaluation of the programs shows 

a cost-effectiveness ratio of $1.25 in value of work accomplished 

for every tax dollar invested. That fact coupled with the personal 

growth of participants and the sense of self-confidence, team pride 

and accomplishment they received for having performed "real work" 

(as opposed to "make work" projects which had characterized other 

youth employment programs) demonstrated the tangible worth of the 

corps. 

The YCC/YACC fell victim in 1982 to the budget cutting of the 

Reagan administration. YACC was completely eliminated while the 

YCC continues today as a mere shadow of its former self. 

Refusing to let a good idea die however, several s~ate and local 

4 
132 

governments, private individuals, and citizen groups mustered a 

groundswell of support behind the conservation corps ideal. Today, 

58 state and local corps operate year-round and sunvner 

conservation/service programs. Like their predecessors, today's 

corps place heavy emphasis on: 1: cost-effectively performing 

needed natural resource work; 2) instilling in participants the 

skills and attitudes necessary for a successful employment 

transition and, 3) developing personal character and a sense of 

citizenship. Many also provide remedial education opportunities 

and post-corps tuition vouchers to encourage continued schooling. 

The Minnesota Conservation corps (MCC) was established in 1981 and 

is one of four longest serving corps in the nation. In its twelve 

year history, thousands of young Minnesotans have had the 

opportunity to SERVE-LEARN-EARN as they worked to conserve the 

state's natural heritage. 

MCC has a dual mission of providing productive natural resources 

work experience and meaningful service-learning opportunities to 

its corps meml:lers. At the heart of the program's mission is the 

fast-held belief that young people are resources to be developed 

and not problems to be solved. 

MCC operates a residantial summer component for youth ages 15 to 18 

and a year-round component for young adults ages 18 to 26. Entry 

level corps members arc paid a stipend equal to the federal minimum 
133 

wage, and are not eligible for benefits other than worker's 

compensation. 

While the corps is open to all of the state's young people, 

preference is give to disadvantaged youth, youth of color, females 

and those who otherwise fall within Minnesota' s forgotten half. The 

latter were identified in a legislative task force report, 

Minnesota's Forgotten Half: A Human Resource Agenda, March 1991, as 

those youth 16 to 24 years old who are unlikely to attend college 

and that are " left behind in comparison to Minnesota's 

remembered halt'." 

One of MCC's important recruitment and programming initiatives 

centers on hearing impaired teens. For the past decade, crews of 

hearing impaired youths and their adult interpreters have been 

quietly at work in Minnesota State Parks. Their presence has 

enriched camp life, with hearing and hearing impaired youth and 

staff learning about and from each other. The initiative was 

honored at the 1993 National Association of Service and 

Conservation Corps Conference for exemplary programming and as a 

model for the corps community. The initiative helps to underscore 

the unique adaptability of the corps model in meeting new 

challenges and its ability to embrace diversity. 

MCC affords corps members the exPerience of success providing a 

nurturing and meaningful work/service placement under competent 

6 
134 

supervision. Utilizing on-the-job and informal/formal classroom 

sessions, corps members are provided training opportunities with an 

aim to developing their basic work behaviors, self-management, 

marketable skills, self-esteem, reasoning and decision making 

skills, appreciation for the environment and service ethic/sense of 

civic duty. Yo\,lng adult corps members lacking a high school 

diploma are required to pursue a G.E,D. 

corps members also have advancement potential within MCC. Many 

crew leader positions are filled by participants who have risen 

through the ranks. All candidates attend the MCC's Leadership 

Development Program in preparation for their new assigM1ents. 

The Minn~sota Conservation Corps is a program in process. It was 

established in 1981 on a financial shoestring and has grown in fits 

and starts and not without budget cuts. In 1992, the program was 

considered for elimination by the Department of Natural Resources 

as part of an emergency budget cutting strategy. Thanks to 

Governor Arne Carlson's leadership and strong commitment to youth 

programs, bi-partisan support in the state legislature and a vocal 

public, the MCC survived but, not without sustaining a $100,000 

budget reduction. The MCC's F.Y. 1993 budget of $1.7 million, is 

again facing potential reduction as Minnesota struggles with a 

revenue shortfall. The MCC receives no direct federal funding. 

MCC's budget experience is not uncommon in the corps community. 
135 

Four corps were eliminated in the last two years due to state 

budget shortfalls. Funding is often times tenuous and energy 

better spent on corps members development is diverted to fund 

raising. 

The work accomplishment of the corps is formidable. It's estimated 

that for every $1.00 invested in the program, a $1.46 is returned 

in public service. In state fiscal year 1992, 307 MCC corps members 

worked 177,749 service hours realizing accomplishments valued at 

$2.55 million. 

To underscore the scope of MCC work, I want to share with you the 

accomplishments of two of our signature projects. The first is the 

Superior Hiking Trail which follows the ridgeling along the north 

shore of Lake Superior. MCC is the primary work force on the Trail 

and has constructed approximately 100 miles of treadway and 

bridging. When completed, the trail will stretch 250 miles from the 

Canadian border to the City of Duluth. Spur trails are also being 

constructed to connect local resorts and communities to the main 

trail corridor. The Superior Hiking Trails is already contributing 

significantly to the tourism economy of northeastern Minnesota. 

The second signature project involves the MCC's river clean up 

campaign. Beginning in 1987, crews engaged in surveying waterways 

for illegal dumpsites within 300 feet of river and s~ream banks. 

Todate, over 2000 river miles have been surveyed and some 1400 tons 

8 
136 

of dump materials have been properly disposed of. Items removed 

have included everything from toilets to tires to chemical drums. 

over a third of thG materials collected have been recycled. 

With 93,000 miles of Minnesota rivers and streams to survey, MCC 

expects to be occupied with river cleanup for the foreseeable 

future. 

In addition to working for the various division of the Minnesota 

DNR, the MCC also has established working relations with several 

federal agencies including the Forest Service, the National Park 

Service and the Fish and Wildlife Service. Using summer youth and 

young adult crews, MCC projects have ranged from stabilizing 

buildings at the historic Rabideau Civilian Conservation Corps Camp 

in the Chippewa National Forest, to site restoration and rehabiltation of erosion sites on the St. Croix Scenic Riverway, to timber 

stand improvement and Superior Hiking Trail construction in the 

superior National Forest. 

The Corps is also piloting an award winning program in cooperation 

with the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service's (USFWS) Minnesota Valley, 

Sherburne, Rice and Tamarac refuges. The Youth In Natural 

Resources (YINR) program is a spin-off of the MCC and is designed 

to interest youth of color, ages 15 to 18, in career and 

educational opportunities in natural resource management. 

Participants learn about nwnerous professional career options and 
137 

corresponding educational requirements from DNR/USFWS field staff. 

The youth then perform work projects associated with the 

profession. In any given week, a TINR participant may be introduced 

to fish biology, perform a fish shocking project identifying and 

measuring specimens and then, visit the College of Natural 

Resources, University of Minnesota, to learn about campus life and 

preparatory source work. 

In summer 1992, 76 youth and staff of color representing the Native 

American, Hispanic, African American and Asian communities 

participated. The program operated in the TWin Cities of st. 

Paul/Minneapolis and, the Mille Lacs and Leech Lake Reservations. 

The MCC's recent grant application to the Commission on National 

and Community Service would also have involved the Forest Service. 

The application had as its primary objective, the establishment of 

a residential training academy at the Forest Service's vacated 

Isabella Ranger Station. The academy would have served as an intake 

and training center for all incoming young adult corps members. In 

exchange, three six-person crews were to be permanently stationed 

there to assist federal agents with projects in the Superior 

National Forest and nearby Boundary Waters Canoe Area. 

Having worked in other youth employment/development agencies and, 

having worked my way up the MCC ranks from summer c=e~ leader to 

camp director to regional supervisor to the post I now hold, I can 

10 
138 

attest to the real value of the corps experience. I am thoroughly 

convinced the state and local corps have the potential for 

conserving the natural and human resources of the nation. The 

single most limiting factor is the lack of stable and sufficient 

funding. What can make the difference is a federal partner with a 

long-term vision and commitment to our natural resources and 

conservation corps. 

I can envision a much closer working relationship between federal 

land management agencies and state and local corps. That 

relationship, whether contractual or in full partnership, 

represents a win/win formula for our natural resources and our 

youth. 

Hundreds of thousands of service hours of important natural 

resource work is going unattended to while vast numbers of our 

nations' s youth wait. Wait for an opportunity to learn how to 

work, to be contributing members of their communities, to be 

called. I urge the congross to issue that call to service and 

engage our young people in rebuilding and reinvigorating the 

nation. 

Mr. Chairman, thank you for the opportunity to appear hsre today. 
139 

Mr. VENTO. Thank you very much for your testimony and your 

efforts in preparing it. 

Finally, we will turn to Doug Wheeler, secretary of the California 

Resources Agency. 

We very much appreciate your presence, Doug, as I know you 

probably have a busy day. 

STATEMENT OF DOUGLAS P. WHEELER 

Mr. WHEELER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am pleased to have 

the invitation to appear before this Committee again this time in 

my capacity as secretary for resources in California, which responsibility includes oversight for the California Conservation Corps, 

and I welcome this chance just to spend a few minutes with you 

on the issue of the Corps and its programs and the relationship of 

the ongoing work of the California Conservation Corps to the issues 

that are being discussed here today and the opportunities that we 

see on the horizon. 

As you may be aware, the California Cs is the oldest and the 

largest of the Nation's conservation corps. It was modeled after the 

effort we heard described here this morning-the original CCC in 

the thirties-has existed since 1976, and we regard it as one of the 

State's most valuable innovations both in service to youth and in 

conservation accomplishment. I think more than anything, its 

motto sums up our attitude and the Corps' attitude toward its mission. The motto is well-known among corps members and among 

many of us who have come to know and admire the Corps, simply 

stated, "Hard work, low pay, miserable conditions, and more." It is 

the "more" that I think continues to attract participants to a program which, over its 16-year life, has performed 35 million hours 

of resource conservation and enhancement work in California, 

these embracing a broad range of activities -exposing young people 

not just to natural resource management opportunities but to efforts which have to do with response to the many emergencies 

which our State has endured and continues to endure. 

It is important to note that our program is distinguished from 

others perhaps by the fact that about 75 percent of the some 1,800 

youth who are served annually by the Cs are housed in residential 

programs where we have the opportunity to provide not only conservation opportunity but an education opportunity and an living 

environment which in many cases is substantially and markedly 

different from that which they have otherwise experienced. Another 

30 percent or so are not in the residential program but report on 

a daily basis to their assignments from their own homes. You have heard already from a representative of one of California's nine local conservation corps. It is a partnership that the 

State corps enjoys with those local corps. Together, we represent 

service opportunities for about 2,500 young Californians every year, 

a combined budget of $70 million, $50 million of which is the budget for the State program, $20 million for those nine local corps. 

It is also important to note that Governor Wilson has assigned 

to our corps responsibility for the development of the CalServe program for youth across the State, which program is being funded by 

the Commission and, in fact, which has already received Commis-
140 

sion funding in the order of $3.5 million. Another CalServe proposal is pending in the order of $10 million. 

It is important to talk about finances. As you have already 

heard, they are a problem for all of us at not just the State level 

but we know at the Federal level as well. That $50 million represents a very important priority of my department and of Governor Wilson's administration in a time when State funding is very, 

very difficult to come by. Increasingly, the California Corps, as the 

local corps, has had to rely on reimbursements for projects, and we 

see a continued trend in that direction. 

I cannot help but relate the experience of the Corps recently in 

shifting from a dependency on our general fund to those 

reimbursables. It is very much the same situation you have heard 

described here by the local corps which rely almost entirely on that 

source now for their sustenance. But that difficulty that we have 

all encountered over the last few years has not kept us from being 

able to respond to emergencies, and in fact, our mission for the Cs 

has been broadened somewhat from the natural resources responsibility lately to cope with some of the issues that arise in California seemingly on a continual basis. 

You have heard a description of our involvement with the fire at 

Oakland. It was possible within a few days to send a dispatch crew 

of South Central L.A. residents to assist with that effort following 

the riots in Los Angeles last spring. Those young people from that 

community acquitted themselves amazingly well very quickly in 

meeting a very real need within their own community. That is 

something different than the typical experience, the conservation 

experience, of the Cs but one which, I think, tends to demonstrate 

their flexibility, their availability and the cost-effectiveness of the 

work they have done. 

I want to touch, too, on one other special program, the Back 

Country Program, because it relates to the work of the Cs in California as partners with the Federal agencies, and that, in turn, relates to our concern about funding for these programs. We have in 

the Back Country Program cooperative relationships with all of the 

Federal land managers in California, but notably with the Park 

Service and the Forest Service. You may know that those agencies 

account for about 40 percent of the land area of our State. 

It is a wonderful opportunity for a six-month summer experience 

in which members of the California Conservation Corps, under contract with those Federal land managers, actually set up camp in 

one of those parks or forests, do work that is detailed for us by the 

Federal agency, and in most instances, it may surprise you to 

know, except for the in-kind support we receive, we are not reimbursed for those expenditures, and in fact, over time the Back 

Country Program has cost us about $600,000 on an annual basis. 

That was true in 1992; we received reimbursements of $100,000 

from the Forest Service for that work and nothing from the Park 

Service except for its in-kind support. Here is obviously a way in 

which, through the budgets of those Federal land management 

agencies, the Committee and the Congress might better support 

the work of the State and local corps. 

Over time, of the $50 million that I described as the annual 

budget, only about 53 percent has been General Fund. That num-
141 

her is such that we now must require 4 7 percent from 

reimbursables. It is very important that we receive this additional 

assistance from the Federal Government, as much as we enjoy and 

appreciate being its partners. 

I have heard a lot about the cost/benefit ratio and the expense 

involved in these programs. Ours is a very important number, and 

I think it is one that has attracted the involvement of the Federal 

agencies. We estimate that for every dollar invested in California 

Corps and California Corps work, Federal participants are enjoying 

benefits on the order of $1.77. 

So I can't help but agree with the other panelists you have heard 

and the others you have heard earlier today that this is an important opportunity. There is ready, willing, and able an infrastructure to expand very quickly, very effectively, this service to the 

young people not just of California but of the Nation, and we certainly stand ready to provide that assistance. 

[Prepared statement of Mr. Wheeler follows:] 
142 

Testimony by 

Douglas P. Wheeler 

Secretary, Resources Agency 

State of California 

House Natural Resources Committee 

Subcommittee on National Parks, Forests and Public Lands 

February 18, 1993 

Mr. Chairman, thank you for providing me with the opportunity to testify before 

the subcommittee today regarding the State of California's youth conservation corps 

program and the valuable work performed on federal, state and local lands. I am 

Douglas Wheeler, Secretary for the Resources Agency in California, with the 

responsibility for overseeing the administration of the California Conservation Corps, 

along with the departments of Forestry & Fire Protection, Parks, Conservation, Fish & 

Game, Water Resources and Boating & Waterways. 

The California Conservation Corps--the CCC--is the oldest and largest of all 

conservation corps across the nation. Modeled after the Civilian Conservation Corps 

of the 193Os, California's program was started in 1976 to bring together the state's 

most valuable resources: its youth and its environment. The CCC's mission is to 

develop youth through work, service and education. Its motto is "Hard Work, Low 

Pay, Miserable Conditions ... and More!" 

Since the program started 16 years ago, the CCC has accomplished ever 35 

million hours of resource conservation and enhancement projects in California. These 

hours represent a broad range of activities for federal, state, and local agencies, as 

well as a statewide emergency response workforce for fire fighting, floo0s, 

earthquakes, pest infestations, oil and toxic spills, and more. 

The CCC is open to all young women and men between the ages of 18 and 23, 

who are willing to work, are California residents, and who are not on probation or 

parole. They voluntarily join for one year; however, they may leave or be fired at any 

1 
143 

time. They receive minimum wage--$4.25 per hour--while paying for a portion of the 

cost for their room and board. About 70 percent of the operation is residential where 

corpsmembers are housed in CCC facilities, and 30 percent is non-residential for 

those who live at home and report to work each day. These operations are in both 

rural and urban locations throughout the state. 

In addition to the CCC's operation, California is also fortunate to have nine 

local, nonprofit conservation corps. The majority of these programs are located in 

urban areas and all are non-residential. Local corps serve their communities in human 

service projects, as well as environmental projects. Combined, the CCC and the local 

conservation corps currently provide 2500 annualized corpsmember positions for 

California's youth. The state and local corps have a combined budget of $70 million--

$50 million state corps and $20 million local corps. 

Because of the CCC's history, expertise and technical knowledge, Governor 

Wilson designated it as the lead department for preparing and implementing the 

state's comprehensive Ca!Serve proposal to the Commission on National and 

Community Service. In this capacity, the CCC and a widely diverse group of statewide 

representatives of youth programs, education providers, volunteer organizations, 

senior organizations and private enterprise, cooperatively met and worked together for 

over a year to form a comprehensive state plan to address the needs of California's 

youth. With the Commission funding, California is implementing a $3.5 million 

expansion of its existing programs and infrastructure, and has resubmitted a proposal 

for over $10 million to the Commission for an even stronger and broader network for 

1993/94. 

The American Conservation Corps, Subtitle C of the National and Community 

Service Act, will build upon California's programs in both urban and rural areas. 

Numerous partnerships have begun. This means new conservation corps programs, 

expanding existing corps in new creative and innovative ways, and supporting 

programs of regional or statewide significance. 

It is with the CCC's comprehensive residential and nonresidential corps models 

that the needs of youth are being met in California, along with a diversity of 
144 

environmental and human service work projects. The CCC helps equip young adults 

to transition into the working world through its unique residential program. 

Prospective corpsmembers submit their application and go where the program needs 

are throughout the state. It is an amazing discovery for an African-American male 

from the inner streets of Los Angeles, after having worked and lived in the Sierras, to 

say to his supervisors that he wants more for his life than the streets of L. A. This is 

an everyday occurrence in the CCC and emphasizes the importance of the residential 

operation--to take youth out of an often hostile and unproductive environment and let 

them learn for themselves their individual value and the contribution they can make to 

their communities. The residential environment provides an opportunity for youth to 

learn, live, and work with a representative spectrum of California's youth. 

The non-residential component also allows youth, who are not able to leave the 

local community, the opportunity to do meaningful work. In both components, the 

success of the program has been the experiential training received through the 

combination of work and education the CCC calls "work/learn." Corpsmembers who 

were once dropping out of school are turned on to learning again after joining the 

program. The work is varied, meaningful, and productive. Crews are widely used for 

statewide emergencies, responding to fires, floods, earthquakes, and other disasters 

that might occur. And, the education is provided at the appropriate learning level for 

each individual corpsmember. 

One of the CCC's premier opportunities for corpsmembers is its Backcountry 

Program, which occurs on federal lands. For the last 13 years, CCC crews have 

performed valuable trail construction and maintenance, meadow restoration and other 

important environmentally sensitive projects. The corpsmembers live and work in the 

backcountry for six months (April through September) in tent camps, often miles from 

the nearest road, and hike miles each day to their work site in California's national 

parks and forests. The CCC provides the labor force and supervision for the program, 

while the federal sponsor provides the needed materials, technical supervisors, tools, 

and supplies to support the work and the crews. 
145 

The CCC has enjoyed this long-standing partnership with its Backcountry 

Program sponsors. The in-kind support provided by the National Park Service (NPS) 

and the U. S. Forest Service (USFS) in past years is greatly appreciated, and has 

helped sustain a valuable program benefitting NPS, USFS, as well as corpsmembers. 

Considering California's fiscal situation, however, the CCC has increasingly 

relied upon sponsor labor reimbursements to continue carrying out the program's 

mission. In regard to the Backcountry Program, the CCC commits about $600,000 to 

support the program and made a concerted effort to receive labor reimbursements 

from NPS and USFS for the 1992 season. The department was able to receive 

$100,000 from USFS, but the NPS was not able to reimburse the CCC. The CCC is 

concerned about the continuation of the program if additional reimbursement 

commitments are not available. 

This same scenario is playing out with all of the federal agencies requesting 

CCC crews. The CCC's state General Fund share is shrinking and must rely upon its 

-sponsors in 1993 for 4 7 percent of its funding. 

As we enter the new era of reinventing government with less subsidy from the 

state General Fund, the CCC must become more entrepreneurial and more self 

sufficient. In short, the CCC must start to charge for the services they previously 

provided for free or minimum cost. For example, two years ago 70 percent of the 

CCC's $56 million budget came from the state General Fund. This year, only 53 

percent of the $50 million is General Fund. That means that $.47 cents of every dollar 

is now earned for services provided to public agencies. Over the last five years, the 

CCC has carried out 6,334 projects; over 1,000 of these projects were for federal 

agencies. For a typical year, this equates to over $4 million in services provided, but 

only $115,000 has been received in reimbursements. It is essential that the CCC be 

able to recover nearly 50 percent or $2 million in the future if it is to sustain the 

valuable services that it has been providing on federal lands. 

The principal agencies served by the CCC include the NPS, USFS, U. S. Fish 

and Wildlife Service, Bureau of Land Management, and the Bureau of Reclamation. 

The major categories of work include trail construction and maintenance, stream 
146 

clearance and rehabilitation, emergency fire fighting, tree planting and maintenance, 

and fish and wildlife habitat improvement. Considering the large percentage of land 

that is federally managed in California, the CCC is a cost effective partner for federal 

agencies. In a past study on the value of work performed by corpsmembers, for 

$1.00 invested in the program, a $1 .77 is returned in benefits. With this rate of return, 

federal agencies nationwide should use the services of corps programs to the greatest 

extent in carrying out their resource protection needs. 

Thank you very much. I am available to answer any questions you may have. 

5 
147 

CALIFORNIA CONSERVATION CORPS 

CADCARS - Proj etct Database system 

SPONSOR NAME 

BUREAU OF LAND MANAGEMENT 

Federal Project Summary 

1987 - 1992 

TOTAL 

HOURS 

45,325 

PERCENT 

OF TOTAL 

3 .1 % 

Sample Project : Alpine County Thinning & Tree Planting 

BUREAU OF RECLAMATION 272 0.0 % 

NATIONAL PARKS SERVICE 359,034 24. 5 % 

Sample : Rehab & Reconstruction of Joshua Tree Nat' 1 Monument 

Projects : Renovation of Theater Building 

: Monarch Divide Trail Project 

US ARMY CORPS OF ENGINEERS 53,326 3.6 % 

Sample : Campground Rehab 

Projects : Fresno River Channel Clearance 

US FOREST SERVICE 978,993 66.8 % 

Sample Pinridge Ranger District Hand Piling Project 

Projects : El Dorado Fire Hazard Reduction 

: Fire Fighter Internship 

US FISH AND WILDLIFE SERVICE 11,266 o. 8 • 

Sample Project : Humboldt Bay Wildlife Refuge Development 

US MILITARY DEPTS - 16,957 

Sample Project : Oakland Site Hazard Reduction 

US DEPARTMENT OF INTERIOR 

USDA-SOIL CONSERVATION SERVICE 

TOTAL FEDERAL HOURS 

(six years) 

72 

38 

1,465,281 

1.2 % 

0.0 % 

0.0 • 

Major Categories of Federal Work 

Trail Construction and Maintenance 

Stream Clearance and Rehabilitation 

Emergency Fire Fighting 

Tree Planting and Maintenance 

February 1993 

6,000 hrs 

28,000 hrs 

12,000 hrs 

11,000 hrs 

6,000 hrs 

3,700 hrs 

20,000 hrs 

12,000 hrs 

11,000 hrs 

6,200 hrs 

5,000 hrs 

Preventative Emergency Work (Fireline cutting, Control burns, Slide stabilization, Snow 

removal, & Site hazard reduction) 

Fish & Wildlife Habitat Improvement 
148 

CCC Project Hours 

1990 - 1992 

(47%) 

Legend 

~ Federal 

• State 

Local 

(16%) 
149 

CALIFORNIA CONSERVATION CORPS 

Public Service Conservation Work Hours 

by Major Resource Category 

j 2.5-3 Million Work Hours Annually j 

24% Reforestation, Forest Improvement 

23% Parks & Recreation 

16% Construction and Rehabilitation 

2% Energy Conservation 

2% Landscaping 

3% Helitack 

4% Fire Hazard Reduction 

4% Fish & Wildlife Conservation 

6% Emergencies 

7% Training 

~-------- · 9% Conservation of Soil and Water 

{Total work hours exclude in-center work) 
150 

Mr. VENTO. This is part of the stimulus and investment package 

that the President has talked about, and as such, I think that 

where some had been concerned in the past with costs, if they 

think they can do better than a $700 reduction in deficit change 

in 5 years, it would be very interesting to see them come forward. 

But he has actually made a big commitment, as you said, $6 billion, to this program. 

I think, Mr. Slobig, in terms of challenging the Committee and 

me specifically-and the reason I wanted to have this hearing specifically was because I felt that the dimension dealing with the conservation aspect of it and the land management agencies was 

something that was not well understood. I think that they, in essence, received some credit for what the Conservation Corps is 

doing. Of course, they are limited by law, and there is very little 

funding that comes directly through to the agencies. Mr. Wheeler, your comments about the fact that the Forest Service reimbursed you something-that obviously came out of the $2.5 

million. They have a ceiling of $3 million, apparently, that they can 

spend on this sort of activity. The Park Service spent less than that 

and apparently in this instance were not able to give you any funds 

directly but in kind, as you indicated. But the real purpose was to find out where the authorization was 

in terms of the National Community Service Act and to try to put 

in place or to understand more and then to take a positive direction 

and build upon what has been done. We certainly don't want to 

lose that which has been in place. 

It is clear to me that there are a lot of conservation projects that 

could fit within the scope of this new national service concept. As 

I understand it, it sounds as though there is going to be a good response. So often the good intentions don't make it into enactment 

because of a lack of funding or a lack of interest in the utilization. 

But there is, I think, enough of an experience in the past decade 

to build upon to eliminate some of the misconceptions in terms of 

displacement and in terms of other problems that exist. 

How many individuals did you say, Mr. Wheeler, you serve on a 

seasonal basis? 

Mr. \VHEELER. It is on an annual basis because our corps members serve for a year. Eighteen hundred within the State corps and 

then an additional 700 in the local corps, annualized. Mr. VENTO. In Minnesota, we had a slightly reduced budget, Mr. Fonnest. How many did you serve? 

Mr. FONNEST. We served approximately 307 in fiscal year 1992. 

Mr. VENTO. Do we have local conservation programs? Didn't we 

have a group in the Twin Cities at one time? That was all part of 

the Young-Adult Conservation Corps. We don't have that any 

more. That was repealed in 1982. I remember they were doing tree 

planting. But these programs are located in urban areas? Suburban 

areas? Or all over the State? 

Mr. FONNEST. The Minnesota Conservation Corps is scattered 

throughout the State, that is correct. There is a program that you 

may have in mind called Twin Cities Tree Trust? 

Mr. VENTO. Yes. Mr. FONNEST. They are out of St. Louis Park, and they are still 

operating. They are basically a summer youth employment pro-
151 

gram, using JTPA funds. However, they don't have an educational 

component beyond the job, tool training and the like. 

Mr. VENTO. Mr. Slobig, you commented about the JTPA funds. 

We don't have jurisdiction over that; Pat Williams' subcommittee 

does in Education and Labor. 

Mr. SLOBIG. I know. 

Mr. VENTO. So I have to be somewhat cautious about what we 

are doing. But I think you are correct in the sense that the idea 

was good, and I think there was a lot of frustration in the House 

after we passed ACC again, after it was vetoed, by a close vote, and 

then it didn't materialize in a different program. We thought 

maybe the momentum would take care of itself, but it didn't. The 

end result was that the land management agencies that perhaps 

had the biggest potential for the utilization of this were excluded. 

I note specifically, Mr. Williams, you are concerned, and others 

here, that we try to build on the existing types of programs that 

we have; in other words, making direct appropriations perhaps to 

land management agencies would not be, by itself, helpful. Is that 

correct? 

Mr. EMILIO WILLIAMS. That is correct, sir. 

Mr. VENTO. You would rather see these dollars be channeled 

through and then contracted. In other words, you could put together a proposal within a national forest or park area of Fish and 

Wildlife Service-whatever the land management agency-and 

then apply to have that particular program funded. Is that your 

concept of what you would like to see done? 

Mr. EMILIO WILLIAMS. Either through application or some level 

of direct appropriation where that is coordinated to local and State 

corps so that they do have those opportunities. 

We have infrastructures that are set up that, for example, would 

not take two or three years to do some of the work. So we would 

not want to get caught up and involved in reinventing the structure and how to implement that process when many of those things 

already exist, and perhaps a 2-6 month period, because we do have 

staff and we do have the mechanisms set up. It would probably 

take a lot longer if the money had to go through unnecessary channels and approvals once again. 

So whatever types of appropriations or items could exist where 

there is a little bit more direct access to substantiate that level of 

partnership between Federal agencies and the corps would be helpful. 

Mr. VENTO. You obviously have a number of projects on national 

lands now that you actually are accomplishing, as Mr. Wheeler is 

in California as well. 

Mr. EMILIO WILLIAMS. Yes, we do. 

Mr. VENTO. Well, Destry, your statement is a real outline of the 

problem and some solutions which I think are creative. The issue 

with regard to the allocation of entrance fees for that purpose is 

a very creative thought for the Park Service and one we will pay 

attention to. I think in the short run, developing the entrance fees, 

the increase, and so forth, would be something that I will have to 

look at very carefully to see whether or not they want to make 

those types of changes. I think there is enough momentum in terms 

of dollars behind this that I might spend a lot of energy in trying 
152 

to restructure that particular aspect and miss the major area of 

emphasis that needs to be brought about in terms of change here. 

I don't know; I haven't seen the entire statement. 

In fact, Congressman Miller is holding a briefing right now on 

the overall budget and the stimulus package issue that I have been 

invited to, and so I'm going to thank you all very much for your 

testimony and run off down there and see if I can learn anything 

more about what might be present in that package, specifically as 

it affects this program and some others. I appreciate the effort you have made in the preparation of these 

statements. I regret that my colleagues have either left for the day 

as we have no more votes and/or are meeting other responsibilities. 

But your statements and, I think, the focus of this have served the 

purpose that I intended-to put us back into the position of looking 

at the policy and reviewing it so that we can give it an orientation 

toward the Federal land management agencies and conservation efforts in terms of this national training program. That is my goal 

and one that you share. 

Most of you, incidentally, are involved in other than just conservation work in terms of service, but this represents clearly, from 

what was stated, in terms of the grants made, the biggest percentage of opportunity for national service in your experience. Is that 

correct, Mr. Wheeler? 

Mr. WHEELER. Yes, you are correct. It is the California Conservation Corps that remains the essential function of the organization. 

Mr. VENTO. Mr. Slobig, can you comment on that? 

Mr. SLOBIG. In terms of Federal grants made by the Commission 

on National and Community Service, it is basically a one-third/onethird/one-third split. The Conservation Corps programs receive by 

a mandated split that is in the law 30 percent of the funds. 

Mr. VENTO. What would you say the capacity is in terms of filling need? I mean you work in this particular area. You know, I'm 

not the expert. 

Mr. SLOBIG. In terms of the absorptive capacity of the programs 

that are out there? 

Mr. VENTO. Yes. 

Mr. SLOBIG. Well, it is enormous. You could geometrically expand 

the existing program network relatively quickly. 

Mr. VENTO. In comparison to other areas of national service in 

terms of the format, you all work with youth programs. Obviously, 

you may have a bias in terms of these types of programs. 

Mr. SLOBIG. In terms of the recommendations that were made by 

the Working Group on Youth Service Policy of a goal of a million 

young people in service by the end of the decade, 300,000 of those 

were specifically in expanded State and local-based youth corps 

programs. 

Mr. VENTO. A conservation type of approach. 

Mr. SLOBIG. That is right. 

Mr. VENTO. Conservation versus working in hospitals or working 

in other types of settings in terms of community service. 

Mr. SLOBIG. That is correct. 

Mr. VENTO. That is specifically what I am trying to understand. 

My subjective view would be that there may be more opportunities 

in this area than in some other areas which require a more sophis-
153 

ticated type of administration. We don't have the experience in 

those other areas. They are very interesting thoughts, but I don't 

know that we had the experience that we have had with this program that we could replicate this type of experience in other areas. 

That is my concern. 

Obviously, the more you do residential, the more expensive it is, 

as has been indicated here; the year-round; changing the age. Are 

there any other observations that you have to make before I bring 

this to a conclusion? 

If not, thank you very much. The meeting stands adjourned. 

[Whereupon, at 1:27 p.m., the subcommittee was adjourned.] 

APPENDIX 

FEBRUARY 18, 1993 

ADDITIONAL MATERIAL SUBMITTED FOR THE HEARING RECORD 

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March 4, 1993 

The Honorable Bruce Babbit 

Secretary 

Department of the Interior 

Washington, D.C. 20240 

Dear Mr. Secretary: 

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on February 18th, the Subcommittee on National Parks, Forests and 

Public Lands held an oversight hearing on the American 

Conservation Corps and Youth Conservation Programs on Federal, state and Local Lands. 

I would like to thank Assistant Director David Moffit of the 

National Park Service and Deputy Assistant Director Bill Hartwig of the Fish and Wildlife service for testifying at the hearing. 

I aa submitting the !allowing questions which concern • atters discussed at the oversight hearing. I would appreciate responses to these questions !rom both the National Park Service and the 

Fish and Wildlife Service since each agency has di!!erent 

conservation corps programs and needs. Considering the high level of interest and activity in youth service programs in 

congress and the Administration, I would appreciate a response in a timely manner. 

Thank you for your attention -to -this request. 

BFV:as 

Sin~ly, 

~~-~ Chairman, Subco111111ittee on National Parks 

and Public Lands 

(155) 
156 

FOLLOW-UP QUESTIONS FQR NATIONAL PARll SERVICE 

AND FISH AND WILDLIFE SERVICE 

1. CAN YOU ESTIMATE THE RATE OF RETURN FOR THE YCC IN TERMS OF 

DOLLARS SPENT AND VAWE OF THE WORK PERFORMED FOR THE PAST 

FIVE AND TEN YEARS FOR YOUR AGENCY? 

2. ASSUMING THE PROVISION OF ADEQUATE FUNDING, WHAT IS THE 

CAPACITY OF THE YCC PROGRAM TO EXPAND WITHIN YOUR AGENCY? 

WHAT WOULD BE THE MAXIMUM FEASIBLE NUMBER OF PARTICIPANTS 

FOR THE YCC IN YOUR AGENCY THIS SUMMER AND THE NEXT FOUR 

YEARS? IF THE CONSERVATION CORPS PROGRAM IN YOUR AGENCY WERE 

TO BE EXPANDED, HOW WOULD SUCH AN EXPANSION BEST BE PHASED 

IN AND WOULD You· RECOMMEND ANY CHANGES IN AUTHORIZING LAW? 

3. WHAT BENEFITS AND DISADVANTAGES WOULD YOU SEE TO RAISING THE 

15-18 YEAR OLD AGE LIMITATION FOR PARTICIPANTS IN THE 

CURRENT YCC? WHAT DIFFERENT PROJECTS COULD BE DONE BY 

COLLEGE GRADUATES OR OTHER INDIVIDUALS 18 TO 25 YEARS OLD 

WHICH ARE NOT BEING DONE BY 15-18 YEAR OLDS? WOULD YOU 

SUPPORT RAISING THE AGE LIMITATION TO ALLOW 18-25 YEARS OLDS 

TO PARTICIPATE? 

4, WHAT BENEFITS AND DISADVANTAGES WOULD THERE BE TO EXPANDING 

THE YCC TO A YEAR ROUND PROGRAM? WOULD YOU SUPPORT SUCH AN 

EXPANSION? 

5. DURING THE HEARING, EMPHASIS WAS PLACED ON PARTNERSHIPS WITH 

STATE AND LOCAL CONSERVATION CORPS AND OTHER ENTITIES TO 

LEVERAGE ADDITIONAL FUNDING AND REDUCE BUREAUCRACY. CAN YOU 

DESCRIBE CURRENT CONSERVATION CORPS PARTNERSHIPS AND WAYS 

SUCH PARTNERSHIPS COULi) BE EXPANDED IN THE FUTURE? TO WHAT 

EXTENT DO STATE AND LOCAL CORPS DO FEE FOR SERVICE WORK ON 

YOUR AGENCY'S LANDS AND HOW COULi) YOU EXPAND CONTRACTING TO 

STATE AND LOCAL CORPS FOR WORK ON FEDERAL LANDS? 

6. ON MARCH 1ST, PRESIDENT CLINTON PROPOSED A $7.4 BILLION 

NATIONAL SERVICE PLAN WHICH WOULO CONSIST OF PRE AND POST 

COLLEGE STUDENTS REPAYING GOVERNMENT LOANS THROUGH VARIOUS 

TYPES OF COMMUNITY SERVICE. 

DOES YOUR AGENCY HAVE AN INTEREST IN PARTICIPATING IN 

THIS PROGRAM ANO IF SO HAVE YOU BEEN ASKED TO OR l'.AVE 

YOU VOWNTARILY PARTICIPATED IN ITS DEVELOPMENT? 

WOULD YOUR AGENCY BE ABLE TO ENGAGE PRE OR POST COLLEGE 

STUDENTS IN MEANINGFUL NATURAL AND HISTORICAL 

CONSERVATION WORK ON THE PUBLIC LANDS? 

PLEASE DESCRIBE VARIOUS WAYS WHiCH YOUR AGENCY COULD 

INTERFACE WITH THE NATIONAL SERVICE PLAN. I WOULD BE 

INTERESTED IN YOUR THOUGHTS ON BOTH AN AGENCY-BASED 

PROGRAM AS WELL AS MODELS WHICH PLACE MORE EMPHASIS ON 

STATE AND LOCAL CORPS DOING PROJECTS ON FEDERAL LANDS. 
157 

0 United States Department of the Interior 

NATIONAL PARK SERVICE 

=

-~ === 

- P.O. Box 37127 

Washington, O.C. 20013-7127 IN REPt.Y REn:R TO 

L58(180) 2 8 APR 1993 

Honorable Bruce F. Vento 

Chairman, Subcommittee on National 

Parks, Forests, and Public Lands 

committee on Natural Resources 

House of Representatives 

Washington, D.C. 20515 

Dear Mr. Vento: 

·--

Enclosed, in response to your letter of March 4, 1993, are answers prepared by the National Park Service to your followup 

questions concerning the hearing on the American Conservation 

Corps and Youth conservation Programs. 

We appreciate the opportunity to provide this information. 

e bert s. Cab~~~ 

Acting Director 

Enclosure 

' • 
158 

FOLLOW-UP QUESTIONS FOR NATIONAL PARK SERVICB 

1. Question: 

Can you estimate the rate of return for the YCC in terms of 

dollars spent and value of the work performed for the past 5 

and 10 years for your agency? 

Answer: 

The past 5 years the rate of return for the Youth 

Conservation corps (YCC) was $1.51 for each dollar expended. 

The value of the work performed during those 5 years was estimated at $12,116,582 at a cost of $8,034,739. The past 

10 years the rate of return was $1.50 for each dollar 

expended. The value of the work performed during those 10 

years was estimated at $35,267,853 at a cost of $23,571,025. 

2. Question: 

Assuming the provision of adequate funding, what is the 

capacity of the YCC program to expand within your agency? 

What would be the maximum feasible number of participants 

for the YCC in your agency this summer and the next 4 years? 

If the Conservation Corps program in your agency were to be 

expanded, how would such an expansion best be phased in and 

would you recommend any changes in authorizing law? 

Answer: 

we would increase the number of YCC enrollees from 

approximately 700 to 4000. We would step-up our recruitment 

efforts and hire 2000 enrollees for the summer 1993; we would hire 3000 for the summer of 1994; we would hire 4000 

for the summer of 1995; and maintain the 4000 enrollees for 

the balance of the 4-year period. We would hire additional 

staff to plan and implement the YCC program activities and 

to supervise the enrollees. We would recommend no changes 

in the present authorizing legislation. 

3. Question: 

What benefits and disadvantages would you see to raising the 

15-18 year old age limitation for participants in the 

current YCC? What different projects could be done by 

college graduates or other individuals 18 to 25 years old 

which are not being done by 15-18 year olds? would you 

support raising the age limitation to allow 18-25 years olds 

to participate? 
159 

2 

Answer: 

Other than expanding the population from which enrollees are chosen, we see no great advantage in raising the age limit 

for the YCC. We do, however, see some benefit in a program 

that would allow for a higher level of skills to be 

developed and more substantial conservation type work 

projects instead of those more labor intensive projects 

conducted by the YCC program. 

4. Question: 

What benefits and disadvantages would there be to expanding 

the YCC to a year-round program? Would you support such an expansion? 

Answer: 

The benefit to expanding the YCC to a year-round program 

would be 1) the needed employment of youth, and 2) to 

accomplish needed conservation projects by the host agency. 

The only disadvantage would be if the younger enrollees 15-

18, see the program as an alternative to staying in school. 

We would not recommend such an expansion. 

s. Question: 

During the hearing, emphasis was placed on partnerships 

with State and Local conservation Corps and other entities 

to leverage additional funding and reduce bureaucracy. can you describe current Conservation Corps partnerships and 

ways such partnerships could be expanded in the future? To 

what extent do State and Local Corps do fee for service work on your agency's lands and how could you expand contracting 

to State and Local Corps for work on Federal lands. 

Answer: 

The National Park Service has developed partnerships with 

several groups for the purpose of conservation activities. 

The following is a brief description of these partnerships: 

Karin Conservation Corps, Marin County, California 

The Karin Conservation Corps has conducted numerous projects over the past 5 years in the Golden Gate National Recreation 

Area (GGNRA) . Projects have ranged from habitat restoration 

to recycling to bridge construction. Total corpsmember hours on GGNRA projects over the past 5 program years is 

62,000, at a cost (borne by a variety of agencies, not 

necessarily directly by GGNRA) of $845,000. 
160 

3 

San Francisco Conservation Corps, San Francisco, California 

The San Francisco Conservation Corps (SFCC) has enjoyed an extremely close working relationship with GGNRA. SFCC has 

completed projects on all facilities within the Recreation 

Area, including historic preservation involving coastal 

batteries, trail construction on Alcatraz Island, and dune 

restoration, totaling 65,000 corpsmember hours with a dollar 

value of $895,000, less than half of which was borne by 

GGNRA. 

SFCC has also worked, under a Chevron USA grant, on damaged meadow lands in Yosemite National Park and on fire-scarred 

lands in Yellowstone National Park. 

Montana Conservation corps, Bozeman, Montana 

The Montana Conservation Corps launched a project in its 

first year of operation that involved a crew of eight 

Blackfoot Tribe members on reclamation projects on portions 

of the Continental Divide Trail in Glacier National Park. 

Also involved in the partnership were the Glacier Park 

Associates. Corpsmembers carried out 2,500 hours of service 

in Glacier during the summer of 1992. 

Washington Conservation Corps, Olympic Peninsula, Washington 

Washington Conservation corps (WCC) has recently responded 

to two large oil spills that affected the Olympic National 

Park seashore. wee corpsmembers worked thousands of days in 

total doing beach cleanup and oiled wildlife collection. 

wee also carried out a major campground renovation in fall 

1992. Young people from 10 different countries worked a 

total of 48 corpsmember-days on the campground. 

wee is currently negotiating larger projects for work on backcountry trail improvements -- a top priority in Olympic National Park. wee also sent two crews to the Yellowstone 

Recovery Project jointly managed by NASCC and the Student 

conservation Association in 1988. 

city Volunteer corps, New York city, New York 

City Volunteer Corps (CVC) has carried out two projects for 

the Gateway National Recreation Area (GNRA), and is in the 

planning stages for much more extensive projects to begin 

this summer in partnership with National Park Service and 

New York City Audubon. In a 200-hour project, eve carried 

out beach cleanups at GNRA; corpsmembers also surveyed the 

debris washing up on beaches to catalog the incidence of 

debris hazardous to shorebirds and marine life. In a 100-

hour project, eve members set up and dismantled exhibits, 
161 

4 

directed traffic, and made educational present·ations for the 

public at the Eco-Fest, and environmental and cultural 

exposition. 

California conservation Corps, California 

The California Conservation Corps (CCC) is the largest corps 

in the nation, and has a concomitant extensive record of 

cooperation with the National Park Service. over the past 

16 years, the CCC has worked in National Park Service 

installations including Redwood, Yosemite, Sequoia-Kings 

canyon National Parks; Cabrillo, Lava Beds, Muir Woods, 

Joshua Tree National Monuments, Point Reyes National 

Seashore, Alcatraz-GGNRA, and Santa Monica Mountains 

National Recreation Area, and has contributed 650,000 hours 

of service to the National Park Service. Nearly 500,000 

hours of that total came through ccc•s Backcountry Trails 

program, where corpsmembers spend several months working out 

of backcountry camps. All told, the Backcountry Trail 

progra• has restored or built 1,789 mil•• of trail for the 

National Park Service in California. 

Colorado conservation Corps, Grand Junction, Colorado 

In its first summer of operation, a Colorado Conservation 

Corps crew in Grand Junction undertook a 7-week project on the Colorado National Monument. Nine corpsmembers 

contributed a total of 2,200 hours of road work, fence 

repair, building maintenance, and trail work. commission on National and Community Service grant funds of $8,000 were matched with Monument supplies and materials funding of 

$5,700. The project was operated by The Resource Center, a job training provider agency for Southwestern Colorado. 

6. Question: 

On March 1, President Clinton proposed a $7.4 billion 

National Service Plan which would consist of pre and post 

college students repaying government loans through various 

types of community service. 

Does your agency have an interest in participating in 

this program and if so have you been asked to or have 

you voluntarily participated in its development? 

Would your agency be able to engage pre or post college 

students in meaningful natural and historical 

conservation work on the public lands? 

Please describe vari ous ways which your agency could 

interface with the National Service Plan. I would be 

interested in your thoughts on· both an agency-based 
162 

program as well as modes which place more emphasis on State and Local Corps doing projects on Federal Lands. 

Answer 

Yes, the National Park Service does have an interest in 

participating in a National Service Plan and have been 

requested by the Secretary's Office to submit some .preliminary data. 

Yes, the National Park Service would be able to engage pre 

and/or post college students in meaningful work experiences 

within the system. 

5 

It is difficult .to describe at this point how the National 

Park Service might inter·face with the National Service Plan, 

since the plan is still being formulated. 

It is important to keep in mind that in most of our parks 

there is limited housing available so that any major 

expansion of either partnerships or agency-based programs 

will be costly to start-up. We believe that there is a benefit with both types of programs and do not necessarily 

favor one over the other. 
163 

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March 4, 1993 

Mr. F. Dale Robertson 

Chief, Forest Service 

Department of Agriculture 14th and Independence, s.w. 

Washington, D.C. 20090-6090 

Dear Chief Robertson: 

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I would like to thank you for your testimony at our February 18th 

Subcommittee oversight hearing on the American Conservation Corps 

and Youth conservation Programs on Federal, state and Local 

Lands. 

Your testimony was helpful and informative. I am submitting the 

f·ollowing questions which concern matters discussed at the 

oversight hearing. Considering the high level of interest in 

youth service programs in Congress and the Administration at .this 

time, I would appreciate responses in a timely manner. 

Thank you for your attention to this request. 

BFV:as 

Chairman, Subcommittee on National Parks, Forests 

and Public Lands 
164 

FQLIQW-VP QUESTIONS fOB FOREST HBYJCJ 

1. CAN YOU ESTIJIATE THE RATE OP RETURN ,OR THE YCC IN TERMS OP 

DOLLARS SPENT AND VAWE OP THE WORK PERFORMED FOR THE PAST 

FIVE AND TEN YEARS FOR THE FOREST SERVICE? 

2. ASSUMING THE PROVISION OF ADEQUATE FUNDING, WHAT IS THE 

CAPACITY OP THE YCC PROGRAM TO EXPAND WITHIII YOUR AGENCY? 

WHAT WOULD BE THE MAXIMUM FEASIBLE NUMBER OP PARTICIPANTS 

FOR THE YCC IN YOUR AGENCY THIS SUMMER AND THE NEXT POUR 

YEARS? IF THE CONSERVATION CORPS PROGRAM IN YOUR AGENCY WERE 

TO BE EXPANDED, HOW WOULD SUCH AN EXPANSION BEST BE PHASED 

IN AND WOULD YOU RECOMMEND ANY CHANGES IN AUTHORIZING LAW? 

3, WHAT BENEFITS AND DISADVANTAGES WOULD YOU SEE TO RAISING THE 

15-18 YEAR OLD AGE LIMITATION FOR PARTICIPANTS IN THE 

CURRENT YCC? WHAT DIFFERENT PROJECTS COULD BE DONE BY 

COLLEGE GRADUATES OR OTHER INDIVIDUALS 18 TO 25 YEARS OLD 

WHICH ARE NOT BEING DONE BY 15-18 YEAR OLDS? WOULD YOU 

SUPPORT RAISING THE AGE LIMITATION TO ALLOW lB-25 YEARS OLDS 

TO PARTICIPATE? 

4, WHAT BENEFITS AND DISADVANTAGES WOULD THERE BE TO EXPANDING 

THE YCC TO A YEAR ROUND PROGRAM? WOULD YOU SUPPORT SUCH AN 

EXPANSION? 

5. DURING THE REARING, EMPHASIS WAS PLACED ON PARTNERSHIPS WITH 

STATE AND LOCAL CONSERVATION CORPS AND OTHER ENTITIES TO 

LEVERAGE ADDITIONAL FUNDING AND REDUCE BUREAUCRACY. CAN YOU 

DESCRIBE CURRENT CONSERVATION CORPS PARTNERSHIPS AND WAYS 

SUCH PARTNERSHIPS COULD BE EXPANDED IN THE PU'l'URB? TO WHAT 

EXTENT DO STATE AND LOCAL CORPS DO PEE FOR SERVICE WORK ON 

YOUR AGENCY'S LANDS AND HOW COULD YOU EXPAND CONTRACTING TO 

STATE AND LOCAL CORPS FOR WORX ON FEDERAL LANDS? . 

6. ON MARCH 1ST, PRESIDENT CLINTON PROPOSED A $7.4 BILLION 

NATIONAL SERVICE PLAN WHICH WOULD CONSIST OP PRE AND POST 

COLLEGE STUDENTS REPAYING GOVERNMENT LOANS THROUGH VARIOUS 

TYPES OF COMMUNITY SERVICE. 

DOES YOUR AGENCY HAVE AN INTEREST IN PARTICIPATING IN 

THIS PROGRAM AND IP SO HAVE YOU BEEN ASKED TO OR HAVE 

YOU VOLIJNTARILY PARTICIPATED IN ITS DEVELOPMENT? 

WOULD YOUR AGENCY BE ABLE TO ENGAGE PRE OR POST COLLEGE 

STUDENTS IN MEANINGFUL NATURAL AND HISTORICAL 

CONSERVATION WORX ON THE PUBLIC LANDS? 

PLEASE DESCRIBE VARIOUS WAYS WHICH YOUR AGENCY COULD 

INTERFACE WITH THE NATIONAL SERVICE PLAN. I WOULD BE 

INTERESTED IN YOUR THOUGHTS ON BOTH AN AGENCY-BASED 

PROGRAM AS WELL AS MODELS WHICH PLACE MORE EMPHASIS ON 

STATE AND LOCAL CORPS DOING PROJECTS ON FEDERAL LANDS. 
United States 

Department of 

Agriculture 

Pore• t 

Service 

Honorable Bruce F . Vento 

Chairman, Subconmti ttee on National 

Parks, Public Lands, and Forests 

U.S. House of Representatives 

812 O'Ne il Houee Office Building 

Washington, D.C. 20515 

Dear Mr. Chairman: 

165 

Waahington 

Office 

14th~ Independence SW 

P.O . Bo:,: 96090 

Washington, DC 20090·6090 

Reply To: 1510 

Date: 2 2 APR fgg3 

Enclosed is our reply in response to your letter of March 4, 1993 , on the 

Youth Conservation Corps hearing of February 18 . We have also enclosed a copy 

of the Natural Resource Jobs and Training Capability Task Force Report t hat is 

referenced in our reply. 

Please call Thelma Strong of the Legislative Affairs Staff at (202) 205·0580 

for further infonnation . 

Sincerely, 

Enclosure 

Caring tor the Land and Serving People 

FS-6200-2Rb(4188J 
166 

forest Service Resoonse to 

Questions Regarding Youth Conservation Corps Hearing on Pebruarv 10 1993 

1. QUSSTIOH: Can you estimate the rate of return for the YCC in terms of 

dollars spent and value of the work perfonned for the pasts and 10 years 

for the Forest Service? 

ANSWIR: From 1988 to 1992, the Forest Service spent an average of 

$2 . 32 million with the work valued at $3.2 million. From 1983 to 1992, we 

spent an average of $2 . 88 million a year with work valued at $3.82 million. 

We estimate that our average rate of return for the last 5 years has been 

$1.48 for every dollar invested and $1.35 for the last 10 years. 

2. QUESTION: Assutning the provision of adequate funding, what is the capacity 

of the YCC program to expand within your Agency? What would be the maximum 

feasible number of participants for the YCC in your Agency this summer and 

the next 4 years? If the Conservation Corps Program in your Agency were to 

be expanded. how would such an expansion best be phased in and would you 

recommend any changes in authorizing law? 

ANSWER: Based on a jobs capability study recently completed within the 

Forest se·rvice, the YCC, under existing authorities, could provide 90-day 

work opportunities for approximately 35,000 youths between age 15 and 18. 

The maximum number of participants that we could put to work this summer is 

14,000 enrollees. A phased-in expansion for the next 4 years is displayed 

below. A key element to the expansion would be decisions on residential 

versus nonresidential camps . We anticipate that most supporting services 

such as residential supervision, meal preparation, etc., required in the 

operation of residential facilities would be contracted. 

1993 14, ooo participants 

1994 20,000 participants 

1995 27,000 participants 

1996 35,000 participants 

A workable phase-in would be to expand up to the 14,000 this summer and 

gradually increase the number of youth by having them in the program 

year-round. 

Although we do not advocate major legislative changes to the YCC program, we 

strongly support new legislation for a conservation coxps program such as 

the American Conservation Corps or the Young Adult Conservation Corps that 

would maximize employment opportunities. New legislation would include the 

following: 

o Ability to include youth up to age 25. 

o Extension of participation for youth not in school to year-round. 

o Place stronger emphasis on basic academic skills, leadership, and 

service to the community . 

o Include language that would permit crews to work on all public 

lands (Federal, State, county, and city). 

o Provide for placement of participants at end of program. 
167 

o Provide post-service benefits, with clear guidelines for use of 

benefits, euch aa for repayment of existing student loans, tuition 

for additional college courses, or for repayment of expenses 

incurred for apprenticeship programs. 

o Include exemption fran Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA) for 

overtime and work hours at residential camps. 

o Consider the option of a stipend versus wage per hour worked. 

o Authorize the use of buildings and property owned by nonprofit 

organizations for use on camp facilities. 

3. QUBSTION: What benefits and disadvantages would you see to raising the 

15-18 year old age limitation for participants in the current YCC? What 

different projects could be done by college graduates or other individuals 

18-25 year old which are not being done by 15-18 year olds? Would you 

support raising the age limitation to allow 18·25 years old to participate? 

ANSWBR: The YCC program is over 20 years and is well known througout the 

Nation as a summer nyouth" program. Therefore, we would not suggest raising 

the age limit above the age of 18 . However, as previously stated, we would 

support legislation for a conservation program that would include young 

adults up to the age of 25 . Some of the benefits and disadvantages of doing 

so would include the following: 

o The older participants would not be restricted by child labor laws 

for certain projects, especially those that would require longer 

vork houra. Participant• over age 18 could operate power tools, 

drive government vehicles, work on firefighting crews, 

prescription projects, archaeological, wildlife, and construction 

projects. 

o Participants over age 18 would also require less supervision, and 

in many cases, could serve as crew leaders. 

o An advantage as well as a disadvantage in raising the age limit 

would be the amount of turnover in the 18-25 year olds, who would 

be seeking higher education or longer term jobs. 

o Another possible disadvantage would be the supervision of co-ed 

residential facilities. We do not foresee this as a major problem 

since the Forest Service also has residential Jobs Corpe centers 

that require the same amount of attention. 

College students could be used in almost all of the Agency's programs, both 

natural resources and the administrative support -areas. Opportunities range 

from ecosystem restoration {watersheds, riparian, wildlife and fish habitat, 

and stream improvements) , recreation and trail maintenance, presc ribed 

burns, wildland fire prevention, rehabilitation of facilities a't recreation 

sites, replacement of roads and bridges in cooperation with the counties, as 

well as serving as interns in information processing, contracting, 

budgeting, fiscal and accounting, and engineering. 
168 

,. QOl:STION: What benefits and disadvantages would there be to expanding the 

YCC to a year•round program? Would you eupport such an expansion? 

AIISUR1 To increase youth participation to 35,000 by 1996 would mean 

expanding the YCC to year-round. If the Forest Service had legislation that 

provided for a longer term conservation program, we would leave the YCC 

legislation basically •intact.• Some of the benefits of a year-round would 

include the following: 

o Geographic location• and climate in areas such as the Southeast 

and Southwest would allow crews to work. from up to 8 months to 

year-round, in sane cases. 

o A longer program would provide a better chance for the youth to 

gain additional work experience, complete educational requirements 

to receive a GKD, and better qualify for educational loans. Also, 

the longer work period would allow better economic opportunities 

for the unemployed and improve skills of participants. 

o The Forest Service would get a significant amount of conservation 

work accQl!1Plished. 

Some of the disadvantages would include the following: 

o Closing certain residential camps due to weather conditions. 

o The year•round program would limit opportunities for 

15·18 year olds because of school requirements. 

c Ccn•iderable facility iRve1tment startup costs involved in 

parl0ft9 residential Cal!l)B would be needed . 

-ni•· voreat s-.rvice would support a year-round program for other conservation 

programs such as .the American Conservation Corps or the Young Adult 

Conaervatioo COrpa . 

5 . QtJl:STICllls During the hearing, emphasis was placed on partnerships with 

State arid local Conservation Corps and other entities to leverage additional 

funding and reduce bureaucracy . Can you describe current Conservation Corps 

partnerships and ways such partnerships could be expanded in the future ? To 

what extent do State and local Corps do fee for service work on your 

Agency's lands and how could you expand contracting to State and local Corps 

for work on Federal lands? 

ANSWER: A wide variety of partnerships currently exists where participants 

are willing and eager to join forces to address the unemployment for 

disadvantaged and risk youth. There are commitments from State and local 

governments, primary and secondary educational institutions, l ocal 

businesses, community-based Job Training Partnership Act (JTP~) 

arrangements, and many private nonprofit organizations. 

The most recent partnership venture to serve youth is with the National 

Forest Foundation (NFF). Beginning this summer, the NFF will raise funds 

from private sources to fund three forest youth camps . Another strong 

partnership with a private nonprofit organization is the Student 

Conservation Association (SCA) where we served over 500 students during 

1992. 
169 

The Forest Service benefits from excellent cooperative partnerships where 

State conservation corps exist. Activity has not been as great in the 

Southeast, due to the limited amount of funding. This provides an 

opportwiity to develop partnerships with all of the 75 State Conservation 

Corps where we do not currently have operational partnerships. 

To date, there have been limited "fee for service " plans implemented in most 

Regions . Aa the Forest Service role in serving rural communities 

progresses, there should be numerous opportunities for multi -partnership 

endeavors between local public, business, and private nonprofit 

organizations. 

The following example illustrates our current situation with 11 fee for 

service . " 

"A crew of eight enrollees plus two crew leaders in the Northwest Youth 

Corps works under agreement with the Payette National Forest in Idaho 

for $5,300 a week. Thia is approximately 90 percent of their cost . 

These costs include wages, three meals a day , camping equipment, 

vehicle costs, insurance, and other administrative expenses. Be cause 

of the minimum availability of funds, our use of their crews is 

limited . With additional funds, we could increase our level of 

participation. Corps participants are well t rained and with high 

quality work performance that requires a minimum amount of supervision 

from Forest Service personnel." 

6 . QUSSTION: On March 1, President Clinton proposed a $7.4 billion national 

sen•ice pl&ft which would coneiat of pre- and post- college students repaying 

goy,enunent.} ~• ~ough ~ -4~• t.ypea of community service . 

ooetl •:- ,Agallc:y ha~~:iDtereat in participating in this program and 

if ao·]~~·ve·· you been··:t~4 ··.:,r have your voluntarily participate d in its devel~nt.? . --·· 

WQ\lld your Agency be able to engage pre - or post-college students in 

memli.ngfu~ natural and historical conservati on work on the public 

land•? 

Please describe various ways which your Agency could interface with the 

National Service Plan . I would be interested in your thoughts on both 

an agency-based program as well as models which place more emphasis on 

State and local corps doing projects on Fede ral lands. 

ANSWER : Ye s, the Forest Servi c e definitely wants to participate in t he 

National Service Plan. 

The Fores t Se r vi c e was inv ited to give testimony a t public hearings in 

Minneapolis, Los Angeles, and Washington, D.C. a few months ago. The Forest 

Service participated in all three, and shared current experiericee at the Los 

Angeles hearing on providing expanded job opportunities in the post-riot Los 

Angeles situa tion. In addition , Forest Service staff have participate d in 

the deve lopment of several con cept papers and in a Congressional s eminar to 

get fe edbac k from youth, etc . , a s the National Service Plan evolved . 

There a re pressing i nfrastruct ure needs for re c reation a nd nat ura l resource 

conse r vation work on the Nat iona l Forests . Partic ipants in the Na tional 

Ser v i ce Loan Fo rgiveness Programs could serve in cons ervation and 
170 

envirorunental endeavors. Further, youth, 

toward student loans and tuition vouchers 

Program. 

5 

be allowed to earn credits 

~rving first in a Corps 

Many rural areas in several States have chronic employment problems with 

youth and no Conservation Corps to serve them. This is just one example 

where fast startup would suggest an agency-based program . The Forest 

Service has decades of experience in managing multiple human resource 

programs that serve all ages, both on the National Forests and increasingly 

in surrounding communities through expanded partnerships . 

The basic operational model of partnerships with State Conservation Corps to 

complete environmental and conservation projects on National Forest land 

exists. The effort needs to be expanded in all States where Corps exist. 

Depending on local conmunity situations and decisions regarding resident ial 

versus nonresidential , the opportunity exists to explore options for "f ee 

for service~ and contracting. 
171 

• 

United States Department of the Interior 

FISH AND WILDLIFE SERVICE 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20240 

In Reply Refer To: 

FWS/LS 

Honorable Bruce F. Vento 

Chairman, Subcommittee on National Parks, 

Forests and Public Lands 

House of Representatives 

Washington, D. C. 20515 

Dear Mr. Chairman: 

APR 3 1993 

Enclosed are the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service responses to the 

questions transmitted with your letter of March 4, 1993, 

requesting additional information on the American Conservation 

corps a.nd youth conservation programs on Federal, state and local 

lands. 

I hope this information is helpful. Please let me know if we can be of further assistance in any way. 

Sincerely, 

DeplltJ' Director 

Enclosure 
172 

U.S. FISH AND WILDLIFE SERVICE 

RESPONSES TO QUEST.IONS FROM CHAIRMAN VENTO 

IN FOLLOWUP TO THE FEBRUARY 18, 1993, HEARING 

CONCERNING YOUTH CONSERVATION PROGRAMS 

Question 1: Can you estimate the rate of return for the YCC 

in terms of dollars spent and value of the work performed for the 

past five and ten years for your agency? 

Answer : In the past five years (1988-1992) the cost/benefit 

ratio was 1.62. In the past ten years (1982-1992) the cost benefit ratio was 1.41. 

Question 2: Assuming the provision of adequate funding, what is the capacity of the YCC Program to expand within your 

agency? What would be the maximum feasible number of 

participants for the YCC i n your agency this summer and the next four years? If the conservation Corps Program in your agency were to be expanded, how would such an expansion best be phased 

in and would you recommend any changes in authorizing law? 

Answer: With adequate funding, the Fish and Wildlife 

Service has the capacity to expand the YCC program by a factor of 

six over present levels. The Service has employed 500-600 

enrollees in recent years. Up to 2000 enrollees could be 

utilized in 1993, with that number increasing to 3000 over the next four years. Changes in age limits and providing for a yearround program would be helpful . 

Question 3: What benefits and disadvantages would you see to raising ·the 15-18 year old age limitation for participants in 

the current YCC? What different projects could be done by 

college graduates or other individuals 18 to 25 years old which are not being done by 15-18 years old? Would you support raising 

the age limitation to allow 18-25 years old to participate? 

Answer: Yes, the Service would strongly support raising the 

age limitation. Currently, YCC enrollees are limited both in the 

time frame they can work (mid-summer) and the equipment (small 

hand tools) they are allowed to use . These limitations restrict 

YCC projects to relatively simple items. Older participants 

would be able to work on much more substantive projects while 

acquiring increased vocational skills. 

Question 4: What benefits and disadvantages would there ,.be to expanding the YCC to a year-round program? Would you support such an expansion? 

Answer: Mid-summer is often not the best time to undertake 

projects, and a year-round program would allow field stations to more effectively utilize YCC enrollees. However, unless the age 

limitation is raised, many YCC enrollees will be limited to the 

length of time they can work due to educational commitments . We 
173 

would support both a year-round program and raising the age 

limitation. This would also provide a number of opportunities 

for interacting with colleges and universities in work/study and 

internship programs. 

Question 5: During the hearing, emphasis was placed on partnerships with State and local conservation corps and other 

entities to leverage additional funding and reduce bureaucracy. 

Can you describe current conservation corps partnerships and ways 

such partnerships could be expanded in the future? To what 

extent do State and local corps do fee for service work on your 

agency's lands and how could you expand contracting to state and 

local corps for work in Federal lands? 

Answer: In the past, the Service has made limited use of 

such partnerships. The Service is interested in pursuing 

partnerships with State and local conservation corps in areas where these organizations are cost effective and where mutual or complementing priorities exist. 

Question 6: On March 1st, President Clinton proposed a $7.4 

billion national service plan which would consist of pre and post 

college students repaying Government loans through various types 

of community service. 

Does your agency have an interest in participating in 

this program and if so have you been asked to or have 

you voluntarily participated in its development? 

Would your agency be able to engage pre or post college 

students in meaningful natural and historical 

conservation work on the public lands? 

Please describe various ways which your agency could 

interface with the national service plan. I would be 

interested in your thoughts on both an agency-based 

program as well as models which place more emphasis on state and local corps doing projects on Federal lands. 

Answer: Yes, the Service would be interested in 

participating in this program. We have had no involvement at 

this time. The Service would be able to provide meaningful postcollege work in several activities, including maintenance and 

construction, historical and archeological work, as well as biological, land management and outdoor recreation activities. The Service would utilize the personnel involved in the National 

Service Plan to accomplish high priority projects that are currently not feasible due to funding or personnel limitations. 
NANCY PELOSI 8TH DISTRICT. CAUfORNIA 

174 

240C,..._8UtLDHIIG 

w,.._,o.., DC 2051&.0IOIS 

(202)22!i-4HS 

F10UAl8Ull.DING 

4110 GOl.DliN GATI Avo1u1 

SA•FIIAIM::I.CO,CA94101-3400 

141!'.iJIIH--4112 

Conll'ftll of tbt llnittb l>tatts 

•oust of Btprtstntatibts 

aa.l,Jington, lDC 20515--0508 

February 17, 1993 

Honorable Bruce Vento 

Chairman, Subcommittee on 

National Parks and Public Lands 

Room A-812, House Annex 1 

Washington, D.C. 20515 

Dear Mr . Cha irman: 

COMMITTEE ON APPROPRIATIONS 

SUICOMMlffllS: 

l.ABOfl•HEALTM AND 

HUMAN SEIIVICH• EDIJCATION 

fOflf:IGN on .... TIOHS, Ekl'OflT ftMANClffG 

AND RUATIO PIIOGflAI.-S 

01stlllCT OF COLUMIIA 

COMMITTEE ON STANDARDS OF 

OFFICIAL CONDUCT 

CONGtllHStOMAl WOfll(fffG G11ou, 

ON CHINA, CM.t.111 

Thank you for conducting the subcommittee hearing on the American 

Conservation Corps and Youth Conservation Programs o n federal, 

state and local lands. 

This is an important subject, and one that is particularly 

important to the Golde n Gate National Recreation Area (GGNRA) in 

my district . For years, the GGNRA and the San Francisco 

Conservation Corps have worked hand in hand o n numerous natural 

resource projects. 

With the addition of over 1,400 acres to the GGNRA when the 

Presidio Army base closes in 1994, the demand for native plant 

and resource restoration will be even more important to maintain 

the natural areas of the GGNRA. 

Last year, Representative George Miller and I introduced 

legislation (HR 5525) which would establish a native plant 

nursery demonstration project as part of a "Corps to College 11 

program . This program would educate at 0 risk youth in the restoration and management of plants and natural areas at the 

GGNRA and allow them to participate in courses to further their 

education . We plan to introduce this legislation again in this 

Congress and loo k forward to your subcommittee's consideration o f 

this important project. 

Because I wi ll not be available to participate in the hearing, I 

ask that you include my statement in the hearing record. Thank 

you, again, for conducting this hearing and for your support of 

youth conservation programs in our national parks. 

best regards, 

(\£UA~ p~ 

THIS SU.T!ONERY PRIMTfD ON PAPER MADE OF AECYClEO FIBERS 
175 

STATEMENT OF REPRESENTATIVE NANCY PELOSI 

BEFORE THE SUBCOMMITTEE ON NATIONAL PARKS AND PUBLIC LANDS 

FEBRUARY 18, 1993 

MR. CHAIRMAN, MEMBERS OF THE SUBCOMMITTEE, I AM PLEASED TO 

OFFER MY STATEMENT ON BEHALF OF THE IMPORTANT CONTRIBUTION MADE 

TO OUR NATIONAL PARKS AND PUBLIC LANDS BY THE CONSERVATION CORPS. 

THE SAN FRANCISCO CONSERVATION CORPS HAS A LONG HISTORY OF 

WORKING SUCCESSFULLY ON MANY NATURAL RESOURCE PROJECTS AT THE 

GOLDEN GATE NATIONAL RECREATION AREA (GGNRA) WHERE PLANT REMOVAL, 

EROSlON CONTROL AND TRAIL BUILDING AND MAINTENANCE HAVE BEEN 

ACCOMPLISHED. 

THIS POSITIVE HISTORY HAS LAID THE FOUNDATION FOR THE CORPS' 

INVOLVEMENT IN THE FUTURE RESTORATION OF THE PRESIDIO'S NATURAL 

RESOURCES AS PART OF ITS TRANSITION FROM MILITARY BASE TO 

NATIONAL PARK. BECAUSE OF THIS STRONG PARTNERSHIP BETWEEN THE 

SAN FRANCISCO CONSERVATION CORPS AND THE NATIONAL PARK SERVICE, I 

WILL PURSUE AN INNOVATIVE PLAN TO AUTHORIZE FUNDING FOR A PROJECT 

TO EXPAND AND RESTORE THE UNIQUE NATURAL COMMUNITIES ON THE 

PRESIDIO GROUNDS THROUGH THE COLLECTION AND PROPAGATION OF LOCAL 

NATIVE PLANTS FOR SUBSEQUENT REVEGETATION. 

THE PRESIDIO PROJECT WOULD SERVE AS THE CORNERSTONE FOR 

TAKING THE CORPS TO THE NEXT LEVEL AS A RESOURCE FOR PROVIDING 

STATE-OF-THE-ART ECOLOGICAL RESTORATION SERVICES. CURRENTLY, A 

NUMBER OF CORPS STUDENTS AND A CREW LEADER ARE LEARNING 

PRINCIPLES OF ECOLOGICAL RESTORATION AS PART OF THE "CORPS TO 

COLLEGE" PROGRAM, A COLLABORATION BETWEEN SAN FRANCISCO STATE 

UNIVERSITY AND THE SAN FRANCISCO CONSERVATION CORPS . THE PROGRAM 
176 

2 

IS DESIGNED TO GIVE POST-HIGH SCHOOL LEVEL CORPS STUDENTS COLLEGE 

EXPERIENCE AND ENVIRONMENTAL EDUCATION. THIS GROUP WILL FORM THE 

NEXUS OF FUTURE CREWS THAT WILL SPECIALIZE IN PROJECTS SUCH AS 

REVEGETATION WITH LOCALLY COLLECTED AND PROPAGATED NATIVE PLANT 

MATERIALS AND MANAGEMENT AND PROTECTION OF ENDANGERED SPECIES AND 

SENSITIVE HABITATS. 

THE PRESIDIO PROJECT WOULD BECOME THE CENTRAL FOCUS OF THE 

"WORK/ LEARN" COMPONENT FOR CORPS MEMBERS LEARNING ABOUT 

ECOLOGICAL RESTORATION. THIS INNOVATIVE PROGRAM WOULD PROVIDE 

SEVERAL SOCIAL AND ENVIRONMENTAL BENEFITS, INCLUDING: 1) AT-RISK 

MULTICULTURAL YOUTH WOULD LEARN ABOUT AND HOPEFULLY DEVELOP AN 

AWARENESS OF THE IMPORTANCE OF THE NATURAL ENVIRONMENT; 2) THESE 

STUDENTS WOULD LEARN CAREER SKILLS IN THE EMERGING FIELD OF 

ENVIRONMENTAL RESTORATION TO ENHANCE THEIR EMPLOYABILITY AFTER 

LEAVING THE CORPS; AND 3) THE COMMUNITY WOULD BENEFIT FROM THE 

EDUCATION AND EXPERTISE THAT COULD BE RETURNED IN THE FORM OF 

TRAINED WORKERS WITH THE CAPABILITY TO PROVIDE A FULL RANGE OF 

ECOLOGICAL RESTORATION SERVICES TO THE COMMUNITY. 

THE GGNRA WOULD SERVE AS A NATIONAL MODEL FOR HARNESSING THE 

ENERGY AND ENTHUSIASM OF YOUTH IN THE CAUSE OF ENVIRONMENTAL 

EDUCATION AND THE RESTORATION OF DAMAGED ECOSYSTEMS IN OUR 

NATIONAL PARKS. THIS LEGISLATION WAS INTRODUCED LAST YEAR WITH 

THE SUPPORT OF CHAIRMAN MILLER AND I LOOK FORWARD TO WORKING WITH 

THE SUBCOMMITTEE TO MOVE THIS PROJECT FORWARD AS A MODEL FOR 

OTHER UNITS OF THE NATIONAL PARK SYSTEM. 
177 

AS THE WILLIAM T. GRANT FOUNDATION REPORT STATES, "THERE ARE 

ALSO THOUSANDS OF YOUNG MEN AND WOMEN WHO ASPIRE TO WORK 

PRODUCTIVELY BUT NEVER QUITE 'MAKE IT' TO THAT KIND OF 

EMPLOYMENT. FOR THESE MEMBERS OF THE FORGOTTEN HALF, THEIR LIVES 

AS ADULTS START IN THE ECONOMIC LIMBO OF UNEMPLOYMENT, PART-TIME 

JOBS, AND POVERTY WAGES . MANY OF THEM NEVER BREAK FREE . " THE 

CORPS TO COLLEGE PROGRAM OFFERS HOPE TO MANY YOUNG PEOPLE WHO 

WOULD OTHERWISE JOIN THE "FORGOTIEN HALF . " 

THE YOUTH CONSERVATION CORPS SERVES A VITAL FUNCTION IN OUR 

SOCIETY AND, I BELIEVE, THE RETURN ON THIS INVESTMENT IN OUR 

YOUTH IS WELL WORTH THE EFFORT AND FEDERAL SUPPORT. OUR FUTURE 

DEPENDS ON THE CONTRIBUTION WE MAKE TOWARD THE DEVELOPMENT AND 

EDUCATION OF OUR YOUNG PEOPLE. 

MR. CHAIRMAN AND MEMBERS OF THE SUBCOMMITTEE, THANK YOU FOR 

CONDUCTING THIS HEARING TODAY AND FOR YOUR CONTINUING SUPPORT FOR 

YOUTH CONSERVATION PROGRAMS IN OUR PARKS AND PUBLIC LANDS . I 

APPRECIATE THE OPPORTUNITY TO SUBMIT MY STATEMENT BEFORE TIIE 

SUBCOMMITTEE TODAY . THANK YOU. 
178 

March 3, 1993 

Bruce Vento, Chairman 

Subcommittee on National Parks, 

Forests and Public Lands 

812 House Annex I 

Washington, D.C. 20515 

BOARD OF DIRECTOR~ 

Joc1iynC11mt-1,,r,11#1n1 

Te!I RIA1, Vic1Pr~ 

Olivfl~. , ... ...,,, 

Sun,nS.....il Sttr11,rr 

Jol!nlrO-tN 

Dowgtn Sid, n 

J11n Siri 

PatO'Bnen, 

G, ,..,, 1M,,..g1r 

Re: Oversight Hearing on American Conservation Corps and Youth 

Conservation Programs on Federal, State and Local Lands 

Dear Chair Vento: 

On behalf of the East Bay Regional Park District Board of 

Directors I co1111end you and your comaittee • ellbers for holding 

this hearing at a tiae when aany public agencies are experiencing 

diminishing financial resources and greater public demand for 

services. The EBRPD, a multi-county, open space and park 

district in the San Francisco East Bay area, operates 49 regional 

parks, recreation areas, wildernesses and preserves totaling 

75,000 acres and 1,000 miles of trails. EBRPD has a strong track 

record of working in partnership with public and private entities to achieve mutually beneficial goals. The Conservation Corps 

Program, which is compatible with President Clinton's goals to produce jobs and preserve the environment, is an example of such a partnership. 

The East Bay Conservation Corps (EBCC) has worked with the 

District since 1983. Starting as a joint effort with the YMCA, 

the EBCC has evolved into an independent agency working on compensatory and matching fund bases. , Corpsmembers range in age 

from 18 to 24. They come from a variety of racial and ethnic 

groups, reflective of the diverse nature of the Bay Area in 

Northern California. Their work .at the District has included 

such labor intensive jobs as trail work, fence construction and 

repair, erosion control, tree planting and irrigation 

installation, vegetation management and stone work. They have 

been extremely well received and supported throughout the years 

they have worked at the District. Most paid project work is 

accomplished in two-week intervals. In 1992, the EBCC completed 

31 of these projects plus an additional ten weeks of a major 

vegetation management fuel break effort for a total of 18,814 

2950 PeralaOali:sCoutt • P.O. Box 5381 • OakLandCA 94605--0381 • 510-635-0135 • Fax 510-569-4319 
179 

crew hours. EBCC crews also contributed 4,056 hours of unpaid 

project work at the parks. The District budgets aonies annually 

fro• our General Fund and additional work is funded fro• a nwnber 

of sources including FEMA grants, donations to the Regional Parks 

Foundation, and District property tax revenue (see Appendix A). 

The District has worked with the California conservation Corps 

(CCC) since 1984 on various maintenance projects such as trail 

work, fence construction, fuel reduction work, erosion control, 

marsh and creekbed restoration. This agency is similar in structure and goals to the EBCC. The work of the CCC has also 

been favorably received and supported by the District. 

Especially helpful has been the availability of the CCC on short 

notice to assist in emergencies, such as oil spills and windstor11 

damage. In 1992, the CCC completed seven weeks of paid work 

totaling 3,015 hours. They annually contribute about 5,000 hours 

of unpaid labor throughout the park system as well. Funding for 

this co11111unity organization comes fro• the Park District's 

property tax revenue (see Appendix A). 

Both of these coJ11111unity-based youth organizations could be 

utilized even more widely around the District to supplement the 

work of our permanent park staff. Because of the increasing 

impingement of the urban interface on our parks and open space, 

there is a critical need to expand the District's vegetation 

management program and to increase trail development and 

maintenance resources as the District continues its acquisition 

of parkland and trail corridors. These efforts require labor 

intensive work. Any increased funding to and other support for 

these community resource groups would be most beneficial to the 

environmental and econoaic health of our co11111unity. 

Sincerely, 

yn 

~~~~ Combs, President 

of Directors 

JC:sv 
1992. 

1991. 

1990. 

1989. 

1988. 

1987. 

1986. 

1985. 

1983-84 

180 

APPENDIX A 

EBCC PROGRAM COSTS TO EBRPD 

$304,671 

257,394 

207,440 

217,958 

181,260 

217,050 

7,955 

no fee 

charge 

Since 1987, . monies are for one year-round contract crew, two additonal summer crews and various capital project efforts. These crews average@ 551 of what the District's park staff would cost to complete the work. 

1992. 

1991. 

1990. 

1985-1989 

CCC PROGRAM COSTS TO EBRPD 

$34,863 

40,000 

no fee 

charge 

For the first five years, the Park District contributed $10,000 

annually to a CCC residential/work center in exchange for unpaid 

labor at numerous parks. Since 1990 to the present, ·monies . paid are for capital project work. As with the EBCC, the crews average 

@ 55\ of what the District's park staff would cost to complete the same work. 

0 

73-387 0 - 93 (184) 

ISBN 0-16-041743-0 

90000