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86–194 PDF 2014

A CULTURE OF MISMANAGEMENT AND WASTEFUL 

CONFERENCE SPENDING AT THE DEPARTMENT 

OF VETERANS AFFAIRS 

HEARING 

BEFORE THE

COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT 

AND GOVERNMENT REFORM 

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 

ONE HUNDRED THIRTEENTH CONGRESS 

FIRST SESSION 

OCTOBER 30, 2013 

Serial No. 113–68 

Printed for the use of the Committee on Oversight and Government Reform 

( 

Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.fdsys.gov 

http://www.house.gov/reform 

(II) 

COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM 

DARRELL E. ISSA, California, Chairman 

JOHN L. MICA, Florida 

MICHAEL R. TURNER, Ohio 

JOHN J. DUNCAN, JR., Tennessee 

PATRICK T. MCHENRY, North Carolina 

JIM JORDAN, Ohio 

JASON CHAFFETZ, Utah 

TIM WALBERG, Michigan 

JAMES LANKFORD, Oklahoma 

JUSTIN AMASH, Michigan 

PAUL A. GOSAR, Arizona 

PATRICK MEEHAN, Pennsylvania 

SCOTT DESJARLAIS, Tennessee 

TREY GOWDY, South Carolina 

BLAKE FARENTHOLD, Texas 

DOC HASTINGS, Washington 

CYNTHIA M. LUMMIS, Wyoming 

ROB WOODALL, Georgia 

THOMAS MASSIE, Kentucky 

DOUG COLLINS, Georgia 

MARK MEADOWS, North Carolina 

KERRY L. BENTIVOLIO, Michigan 

RON DESANTIS, Florida 

ELIJAH E. CUMMINGS, Maryland, Ranking 

Minority Member 

CAROLYN B. MALONEY, New York 

ELEANOR HOLMES NORTON, District of 

Columbia 

JOHN F. TIERNEY, Massachusetts 

WM. LACY CLAY, Missouri 

STEPHEN F. LYNCH, Massachusetts 

JIM COOPER, Tennessee 

GERALD E. CONNOLLY, Virginia 

JACKIE SPEIER, California 

MATTHEW A. CARTWRIGHT, Pennsylvania 

TAMMY DUCKWORTH, Illinois 

ROBIN L. KELLY, Illinois 

DANNY K. DAVIS, Illinois 

PETER WELCH, Vermont 

TONY CARDENAS, California 

STEVEN A. HORSFORD, Nevada 

MICHELLE LUJAN GRISHAM, New Mexico 

VACANCY 

LAWRENCE J. BRADY, Staff Director 

JOHN D. CUADERES, Deputy Staff Director 

STEPHEN CASTOR, General Counsel 

LINDA A. GOOD, Chief Clerk 

DAVID RAPALLO, Minority Staff Director 

(III) 

C O N T E N T S 

Page 

Hearing held on October 30, 2013 .......................................................................... 1 

WITNESSES 

The Hon. Gina Farrisee, Assistant Secretary for Human Resources and Administration, U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs, Accompanied by Edward 

Murray, Deputy Assistant Secretary for Finance, U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs 

Oral Statement ................................................................................................. 8 

Written Statement ............................................................................................ 11 

The Honorable Richard J. Griffin, Deputy Inspector General, U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs, and Gary Abe, Deputy Assistant Inspector General for Audits and Evaluations, U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs 

Oral Statement ................................................................................................. 24 

Written Statement ............................................................................................ 25 

APPENDIX 

Veterans Affairs OIG response to questions ......................................................... 54 

Committee on Oversight and Government Reform: Staff Report ........................ 57 

GSA, IRS, and VA estimate IRS Conference Spending ........................................ 154 

Dept. of Veterans Affairs Conference Oversight ................................................... 156 

(1) 

A CULTURE OF MISMANAGEMENT AND 

WASTEFUL CONFERENCE SPENDING AT 

THE DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS AFFAIRS 

Wednesday, October 30, 2013 

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, 

COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM, 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 

The committee met, pursuant to call, at 9:30 a.m., in Room 2154, 

Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Darrell E. Issa [chairman of 

the committee] presiding. 

Present: Representatives Issa, Mica, Duncan, Farenthold, 

Walberg, Jordan, Meadows, Bentivolio, Cummings, Maloney, Norton, Tierney, Lynch, Connolly, Duckworth, Davis, Horsford, Lujan 

Grisham. 

Staff Present: Alexa Armstrong, Majority Legislative Assistant; 

Molly Boyl, Majority Deputy General Counsel and Parliamentarian; Lawrence J. Brady, Majority Staff Director; Ashley H. 

Callen, Majority Deputy Chief Counsel for Investigations; Sharon 

Casey, Majority Senior Assistant Clerk; John Cuaderes, Majority 

Deputy Staff Director; Jessica L. Donlon, Majority Senior Counsel; 

Linda Good, Majority Chief Clerk; Caroline Ingram, Majority Professional Staff Member; Mark D. Marin, Majority Deputy Staff Director of Oversight; Emily Martin, Majority Counsel; Ashok M. 

Pinto, Majority Chief Counsel, Majority Chief Counsel, Investigations; Laura L. Rush, Majority Deputy Chief Clerk; Jonathan J. 

Skladany, Majority Deputy General Counsel; Rebecca Watkins, Majority Communications Director; Beverly Britton Fraser, Minority 

Counsel; Aryele Bradford, Minority Press Secretary; Kevin Corbin, 

Minority Professional Staff Member; Juan McCullum, Minority 

Clerk; Dave Rapallo, Minority Staff Director; Daniel Roberts, Minority Staff Assistant/Legislative Correspondent; Valerie Shen, Minority Counsel; Mark Stephenson, Minority Director of Legislation. 

Chairman ISSA. The committee will come to order. 

The Oversight Committee exists to secure two fundamental principles. First, Americans have a right to know that the money 

Washington takes from them is well spent. And second, Americans 

deserve an efficient, effective government that works for them. Our 

duty on the Oversight and Government Reform Committee is to 

protect these rights. 

Our solemn responsibility is to hold government and government 

officials responsible to taxpayers. Because taxpayers have a right 

to know what they get from their government. It is our obligation 

to work tirelessly in partnership with citizen watchdogs to deliver 

2 

the facts to the American people and bring genuine reform to the 

Federal bureaucracy. 

Today we meet to discuss the Department of Veterans Affairs, an 

organization whose essential duty is second only to the men and 

women who they serve and their obligation and their duty and 

their service to protect our Country. If in fact we abandon our veterans, then we abandon our men and women in harm’s way. We 

cannot and should not ever forget that service begins by raising 

one’s right hand, but continues for a lifetime, and the effects of 

that service often has a lingering effect on the men and women 

who, in a voluntary army, go in harm’s way because they respect 

and love their Country. 

Congress in fact exempted the Department of Veterans Affairs 

from sequestration. So important is the obligation to get it right 

that money has not been a problem. Furthermore, even as we 

began opening the government again after the latest effects, additional dollars were dedicated to a backlog that is by definition inexcusable for those who have served our Country. 

The Department, which is second only to the Department of De- fense, spent an estimated $6.1 million on what was marked or considered to be training conferences. Today, we are here at a time in 

which many people would say, didn’t you already cover the GSA 

scandal? Didn’t you already cover the IRS scandal of wasting people’s money on conferences? It is true we did. But these conferences 

are in fact historical, not current. 

There are several reasons we are here today, not just that these 

were lavish parties that the Department spent, but that the IG’s 

own report finds it impossible, due to the hopeless accounting at 

Veterans Administration, to find out exactly how much was spent. 

A forensic audit only estimates how much was spent. 

This is a lot of walking-around money that has been left loose at 

the Veterans Administration that could have and should have been 

made available to our veterans and their needs. 

Additionally, we can find no purpose for these conferences that 

justifies it. I do not often reflect on confidential conversations I 

have, but there is one that I have made public in the past, and I 

will continue to. General Shinseki, in a conversation with me at the 

beginning of the discovery of this scandal, told me his greatest obligation and his problem was to change the culture at the VA, a culture he inherited, a culture that in fact talks about the veterans 

and then in fact fails to perform in a number of areas. 

The taxpayers in this case got a lousy deal. It isn’t just that 

there were lavish conferences and once again, videos and mocking 

of people’s real obligations and seriousness, but in this case, they 

had an opportunity and an obligation to train HR people, to be part 

of that culture of change that the Secretary so much said he wanted to get accomplished on his watch. And they failed to do so. The 

Office of the Inspector General, attempting to conduct an audit by 

recreating the budget using the few records that were available, 

the IG found at least $762,000 of unnecessary and unauthorized 

wasteful expense. 

How could this happen? That there could be three-quarters of a 

million dollars of waste? How could it happen? It could happen because, in fact, this agency has deep pockets and money that is deVerDate Aug 31 2005 09:52 Jan 24, 2014 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00006 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 C:\DOCS\86194.TXT APRIL
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signed to have flexibility because we want that flexibility to be 

used for our veterans. 

The Department’s senior leadership effectively gave the conference planners a blank check, and those planners took advantage 

of it. I, in fact, am not pleased with outside conference planners. 

But let’s understand: $450,000 to market and hype the conference 

was a decision that really didn’t need to be made, because the fact 

is, these are employees. You are paying for them to come, you can 

order them to come, you can encourage them to come or you can, 

in fact, make it clear that if they don’t come, it could reflect on 

their continued training requirement. So why do you need to advertise? These aren’t buyers, these are, in fact, recipients of a training 

that they need and perhaps a bit of a perk to get away from the 

day-to-day job. 

Fifty thousand dollars was spent on a movie or what we might 

call a YouTube phenomenon on Patton. Ninety-eight thousand dollars was spent on promotional products such as notebooks, water 

bottles, hand sanitizers, fitness walking kits and the like. Again, I 

am not sure what part of the HR training that reflected. 

When planners asked their managers about the budget, the managers replied, ‘‘Don’t worry about it.’’ Because the Veterans Administration, Veterans Affairs is a large agency with deep pockets. Yes, 

it is a large agency with deep pockets. But those pockets were not 

intended to be picked by either contractors that were likely unnecessary or, in fact, people who we held accountable and paid to be 

accountable to the taxpayers. 

It shouldn’t come as a surprise then that the conference planners 

spent considerably more time on planning and entertainment activities for themselves than they did for planning the training activities. Conference planners visited Dallas, Nashville and Orlando 

to scout possible locations for conferences. In emails they raved 

about what a great time they were having on what amounted to 

be taxpayer-financed vacations. 

While they were on these paid vacations, they accepted improper 

gifts from hotels competing to host the conference, including spa 

packages and room upgrades and show tickets, limo rides and helicopter rides. To make matters worse, during these conferences, 

when they were so busy getting the perks of representing a large, 

deep-pocket buyer, they, in fact, asked for and received overtime 

pay. That is right, Mrs. Maloney. Only in this kind of environment 

of not caring enough about the taxpayers’ money can you have 

somebody have what I grew up calling chutzpah to use taxpayers’ 

money, enjoy the perks and then say, but I need overtime. 

The conference planners thought they deserved recognition for 

their hard work and their efforts to save ‘‘Department money,’’ and 

amazingly, they did get recognized. Without doing any due diligence, the Department awarded over $43,000 in cash and one-time 

awards to conference planners for a job well done. 

This is a pattern that we see, that bonuses are an entitlement, 

they are automatic. But in this case, to see that bonuses were basically there for providing perks to the very people granting it is the 

kind of quid pro quo that we need to get out of government. And 

if we can’t get it out of government using techniques such as training and responsibility and real belief in what you do for the governVerDate Aug 31 2005 09:52 Jan 24, 2014 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00007 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 C:\DOCS\86194.TXT APRIL
4 

ment, then in fact undoubtedly Congress will again pass additional 

laws that will be complained about as restraining management. 

But in fact, if liberty is given to management to do the job right 

and they abuse it, they can expect nothing else. 

Meanwhile, with the Department having over 300,000 employees, a $140 billion budget that was immune to sequestration, our veterans were abused. And I use that word carefully. But I use it deliberatively. The number of pending veterans benefits claims currently stands at 700,000. One of the great abuses discovered in 

preparation for this hearing is that the stated number is 400,000. 

Why? Because first we have to delay and not do really anything for 

the first 120 or 125 days, and then we put them on the list. 

So whether you say it is 700,000 waiting or 400,000 that are 

clearly being abused by a backlog that no matter how much money 

is thrown at it never seems to shrink, the Department continues 

to fall short of its goals and as additional money occurs, they simply have excuses. In fact, the Veterans Administration missed its 

own target for processing claims by approximately 100,000 last 

year. The number of appealed claims has continued to rapidly grow 

to over 255,000. Other committees have held hearings on the effects of those appeals claims, the inaccuracy and the likelihood that 

appeal claims, if occurred often enough, would be meritorious. 

The Department’s waste and its problems are primarily the Committee on Veterans Affairs responsibility. However, with the good 

work of the IG and the effects that we see of an IG doing the right 

thing and not being able to get to the right answer or in this case, 

26 out of 49 IG recommendations remain unfulfilled, this Committee has very little choice but to bring up this issue and make 

it very clear that we will not take our eyes off the Veterans Administration for any of their practices until there is a belief there has 

been meaningful change in the culture, as the Secretary has told 

us, in the culture that he inherited. 

With that, I will put the rest of my opening statement into the 

record, and I thank the ranking member for his indulgence and I 

yield. 

[Prepared statement of Mr. Issa follows:] 

Mr. CUMMINGS. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. 

I want to begin by thanking Mr. Griffin, Deputy Inspector General at the Department of Veterans Affairs, for work he and others 

at his office conducted with respect to conferences hosted by the VA 

several years ago in Orlando, Florida. The report you issued, Inspector, was comprehensive in identifying problems at the VA. It 

made concrete recommendations to remedy those problems. 

You did great work and I want to make sure that you take back 

our thanks to all those who work in your office and contributed to 

this report. 

Last November, the House Committee on Veterans Affairs held 

a hearing on these issues, and reviewed the Inspector General’s report in detail. The Committee considered the significant problems 

associated with the VA’s conference review process. And it examined many reforms that were being implemented to ensure adequate internal controls and oversight. For example, the VA has 

made significant changes in its conference planning and oversight 

policies. One change was to clearly define specific executives acVerDate Aug 31 2005 09:52 Jan 24, 2014 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00008 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 C:\DOCS\86194.TXT APRIL
5 

countable for ensuring that conference planning and spending was 

in compliance with regulations and policies. In other words, to integrate the VA budget officers into conference planning and to build 

in fiscal controls. 

The VA also prohibited conferences that cost more than $500,000 

without a waiver from the Secretary and would require approval 

from the Deputy Secretary for conferences that cost between 

$100,000 and $500,000. The VA also established a training support 

office to provide guidance to VA offices about the applicable regulations and other requirements, and the VA mandated additional 

training on travel and purchase cards. 

The VA also held accountable employees who were involved in 

the 2011 Orlando conferences. For example, the VA demoted the 

Deputy Assistant Secretary for the Office of Human Resources 

Management, removing her from the Senior Executive Service and 

admonished then-Chief of Staff John Gingrich for his role in authorizing the conferences. The dean of the Veterans Affairs Learning University also resigned in response to the IG’s findings and 

other career employees have administrative actions still pending. 

VA officials also asked John Sepulveda, the Assistant Secretary 

for Human Resources and Administration, to resign when the Inspector General’s report found that he abdicated his responsibilities 

as the Assistant Secretary when he failed to provide proper guidance and oversight to senior executives in the operations of his organization. 

The Inspector General’s report also found that Mr. Sepulveda 

falsely claimed he had no knowledge about a George Patton parody 

video shown at the conference, although he later revised his statement. I would have preferred to hear directly from Mr. Sepulveda 

today about his actions, but I understand that he will assert his 

constitutional right not to testify and I will respect his right to do 

so. 

For today’s hearing, I believe it is important to hear from our 

witnesses about steps that still need to be completed, to fully implement the Inspector General’s recommendations. For example, I 

would like to hear about the status of a web portal the VA plans 

to use to help collect information about conference spending, which 

I understand is running later than scheduled. I would also like an 

update on the status of a handbook on conference planning, execution and oversight which the Inspector General believes will satisfy 

many of the recommendations that remain open. 

I would also like to hear about VA’s progress in meeting benchmarks established by the Obama Administration for all agencies. 

In November 2011, President Obama issued Executive Order 

13589, which required agencies to reduce their total expenditures 

on travel and other items by 20 percent below their 2010 spending. 

The next year, the Office of Management and Budget issued a 

memorandum directing agencies to reduce their travel budget even 

more, this time, by 30 percent, and to maintain that spending level 

until 2016. 

Finally, I want to thank our witnesses from the Department for 

being here today. I know some of you are very new to your jobs, 

Ms. Farrisee, I understand you have been serving in the role of Assistant Secretary for Human Resources and Administration for only 

6 

about a month. Although you were not here when these mistakes 

were made, the committee will look to you to complete the implementation of the Inspector General’s recommendations and to prevent the waste that occurred in 2011 from being repeated. 

With that, Mr. Chairman, I yield back. 

Chairman ISSA. I thank the ranking member. I might note that 

Mr. Murray has been, as far as we can tell, in his position since 

2005. So perhaps the long-serving and the new kid on the block 

will be a good combination for today. 

All members will have seven days to submit opening statements 

and extraneous information for the record. 

I now ask unanimous consent that the Oversight Committee’s 

staff report entitled U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs 2011 

Human Resources Conferences, a Culture of Mismanagement and 

Reckless spending, be placed into the record. Without objection, so 

noted, and copies will be distributed to all members so they may 

use the material. 

Mr. CUMMINGS. Mr. Chairman, just one clarification. That is the 

Republican report, is that right? 

Chairman ISSA. It is. If you have a minority report, I would love 

to see it. 

Mr. CUMMINGS. We had no input in this report. 

Chairman ISSA. Did they have input? I just want to make it a 

staff report for the majority. 

Mr. CUMMINGS. All right, thank you. 

Chairman ISSA. I would like to welcome our panel of witnesses 

at this time and introduce the Honorable Gina Farrisee, the Assistant Secretary of Human Resources and Administration for the 

United States Department of Veterans Affairs. Mr. Ed Murray is 

the Deputy Assistant Secretary for Finance at the U.S. Department 

of Veterans Affairs, as we said, since 2005. 

The Honorable John Sepulveda is the Former Assistant Secretary for Human Resources and Administration at the U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs. The Honorable Richard Griffin is the 

Deputy Inspector General for the U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs. And his chief deputy, Mr. Gary Abe, is the Deputy Assistant 

Inspector General for Audits and Evaluations at the U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs, and I understand the chief person responsible for this work. 

Pursuant to the committee’s rules, would you please all rise, 

raise your right hands to take the oath. Do you solemnly swear or 

affirm the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the 

whole truth and nothing but the truth. 

[Witnesses respond in the affirmative.] 

Chairman ISSA. Please be seated. 

Let the record indicate that all witnesses answered in the affirmative. 

When we begin, I understand that we will have Ms. Farrisee and 

Mr. Griffin who will be doing the opening statements. I understand, as the ranking member said, Mr. Sepulveda, that you may 

not be willing to testify. Is that correct? 

Mr. SEPULVEDA. That is correct [remarks off microphone]. 

7 

Chairman ISSA. Then we will go through the obligatory questions 

with you before opening statements, we have no intention on having anyone remain longer than appropriate. 

Mr. Sepulveda, you have not provided us with any written testimony today. Do you wish to make any opening statement? 

Mr. SEPULVEDA. With all due respect sir, Mr. Chairman, on the 

advice of my counsel, I respectfully decline to answer based on my 

Fifth Amendment constitutional right. 

Chairman ISSA. Which is the privilege not to incriminate yourself 

by answering, is that correct? 

Mr. SEPULVEDA. It is the privilege to remain silent, sir. 

Chairman ISSA. Okay. It is our understanding from your counsel 

that you may assert that constitutional privilege, and you have. 

Mr. Sepulveda, today’s hearing will address the planning and execution of two Department of Veterans Affairs conferences held in 

Orlando, Florida in 2011. As the Assistant Secretary of Human Resources and Administration during the period in question, you 

played a lead role in the conference planning process. You were 

uniquely qualified to assist the committee in the investigation into 

the waste that may have occurred at this event. 

Your name appears more than 80 times in the Inspector General’s report on the conferences. So I must ask you to consider answering the committee’s questions, and I am going to ask you a few 

right now, to see if you will answer any questions. 

Mr. Sepulveda, you are no longer an employee of the VA. Is that 

correct? 

Mr. SEPULVEDA. On the advice of my counsel, I respectfully decline to answer based on my Fifth Amendment constitutional right. 

Chairman ISSA. Mr. Sepulveda, when did you resign from the 

VA? 

Mr. SEPULVEDA. Again, on the advice of my counsel, I respectfully decline to answer based on my Fifth Amendment constitutional right. 

Chairman ISSA. Mr. Sepulveda, are you currently receiving full 

retirement benefits? 

Mr. SEPULVEDA. On the advice of my counsel, I respectfully decline to answer based on my Fifth Amendment constitutional right. 

Chairman ISSA. Mr. Sepulveda, there was an article in the Federal Times on October 1st, 2012, that discussed the conferences 

that we are here to talk about today. The article contained a statement attributed to you. The statement addressed your resignation 

from the Veterans Administration. The statement was ‘‘I resigned 

because I did not want to be a distraction to the Administration, 

Secretary Shinseki and the VA, especially as they continue to work 

each day to address the urgent needs of our Nation’s veterans.’’ 

Mr. Sepulveda, why did you resign from the Veterans Administration? 

Mr. SEPULVEDA. On the advice of my counsel, I respectfully decline to answer based on my Fifth Amendment constitutional privilege. 

Chairman ISSA. Mr. Sepulveda, is that statement attributed to 

you in fact your statement? 

8 

Mr. SEPULVEDA. Again, on the advice of my counsel, I respectfully decline to answer based on my Fifth Amendment constitutional privilege. 

Chairman ISSA. Mr. Sepulveda, I am disappointed that you are 

not willing to give a statement, but you were willing to give a 

statement, apparently, to the Federal Times about your resignation 

but you won’t do so here today. Additionally, Mr. Sepulveda, when 

the OIG investigators asked you whether you had viewed the Patton video parody before it was shown publicly, you answered no. Is 

that correct? 

Mr. SEPULVEDA. On the advice of my counsel, I respectfully decline to answer based on my Fifth Amendment constitutional privilege. 

Chairman ISSA. Mr. Sepulveda, I have many more questions on 

this list. But it appears as though you will answer no additional 

questions. Is there any question I can ask you today that is germane to our discovery that you are willing to answer? 

Mr. SEPULVEDA. On the advice of my counsel, I respectfully decline to answer based on my Fifth Amendment constitutional privilege. 

Chairman ISSA. Okay. In that case, I won’t say you are excused, 

you are dismissed. 

Mr. SEPULVEDA. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Chairman ISSA. You are most welcome. 

We will take a very short recess just so they can reset and remove his name plate. 

[Recess.] 

Chairman ISSA. This really does look like a divide now between 

the IGs and the Administration, but we will leave it this way to 

be expeditious. 

We now continue with our hearing, Ms. Farrisee, such time as 

you may consume, but if you can, stay at approximately five minutes. 

STATEMENT OF THE HONORABLE GINA FARRISEE 

Ms. FARRISEE. Good morning, Chairman Issa. 

Ranking Member Cummings and distinguished members of the 

Committee on Oversight and Government Reform, thank you for 

the opportunity to be with you today to discuss the Department of 

Veterans Affairs commitment to transparency, oversight and the 

training of its employees to deliver the highest quality service to 

our Nation’s veterans, family members and survivors while ensuring the accountability of taxpayer funds. 

I am joined today by Edward Murray, Deputy Assistant Secretary for Finance in the Office of Management. Sitting behind me 

are Jack Hammer, Senior Advisor and Ford Heard, Associate Deputy Assistant Secretary for Procurement Policy, Systems and Oversight, Office of Acquisitions and Logistics. 

I know that many of you are interested in talking about the 2011 

human resources training conferences held in Orlando, the issues 

identified by the VA Inspector General and about what our Department has done over the last year to ensure that such issues do not 

occur again. Having taken this position last month, I was not with 

VA last year when the VA began implementing corrective actions 

9 

to further strengthen oversight of training conferences. But I and 

my accompanying witnesses look forward to discussing the results 

of the reforms and reviews VA has conducted. 

While the findings of the report were troubling, we also recognize 

the critical importance of VA training. The IG report states that 

VA’s human resources conferences in Orlando were held to fulfill 

valid training needs and that they offered legitimate, substantive 

training courses. Making clear they were focused on legitimately 

required training is not in question. Learning of the event’s failures 

only makes more key the fact that VA’s mission, to serve our veterans, must be at the core of our work all of the time, including 

when we are planning attending and managing training conferences. 

VA began taking actions immediately after learning of the IG’s 

report. In September of 2012, VA issued a revised training conference planning oversight policy. This policy established new 

standards to ensure senior executives exercise due diligence in the 

planning, execution and management of their sponsored training 

conferences. In summary, this policy demands three things. First, 

every training conference will have a point of accountability at the 

senior executive level. Second, each training conference will have 

four phases: concept, development, execution and reporting, each 

with its own objectives, metrics and standards of execution to ensure value and accountability. And third, a new training support 

office to assist VA employees in meeting our new reporting requirements. 

This policy ensures greater oversight over each training con- ference. If the training conference is estimated to cost over $20,000, 

the policy requires the appointment of a second senior official to 

ensure that the training conference is executed in accordance with 

policy, and that the costs are approved by the administration or 

staff office. 

These duties carry through the training conference as the official 

must certify that the training conference was executed appropriately after its completion. VA’s administration and staff offices 

have engaged in a re-examination of the methods that we use to 

train. VA is leveraging current capabilities, such as video-teleconferencing, our online training portal, known as our talent management system, and the VA national telecommunications system, 

to cut costs. In fiscal year 2012, one organization with VA alone realized $33 million in cost avoidance as a result of increased usage 

of those systems, an increase of 29 percent usage from 2011. 

The September 2012 policy strengthened the development of 

business cases that must be prepared in advance of a training conference. The sponsor must show the training conference is a part 

of a strategy to develop employee skill sets and then measure outcomes to help develop more relevant and focused training in the future. 

As a result of surveys conducted after the Orlando training conference, we learned that 75 percent of supervisors stated that their 

employees’ job performance had improved after the training conferences. Continuous workforce training and development are absolutely critical to delivering the timely quality VA care and services 

our veterans have earned and deserved. 

10 

Our Department’s mission and sacred obligation are to honor and 

best serve our veterans, their family members and survivors. Incumbent in that mission is the non-negotiable requirement to manage our resources carefully and ensure that there is always appropriate oversight and accountability for our taxpayers’ dollars. 

Mr. Chairman, the VA panel and I will be glad to answer questions from you and other members of the committee this morning. 

Thank you. 

[Prepared statement of Ms. Farrisee follows:] 

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Chairman ISSA. Thank you. 

Mr. Griffin? 

STATEMENT OF THE HONORABLE RICHARD J. GRIFFIN 

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Chairman, Ranking Member Cummings and 

distinguished members of the committee, thank you for the opportunity to provide testimony today and for your continued support 

of the work of the men and women of the VA Office of Inspector 

General. 

Today marks the 61st time over the past six years that IG managers have provided Congressional testimony. During these hearings, we have covered a wide variety of challenging topics, including mental health program management, military sexual trauma, 

IT security and protecting veterans’ private information, physician 

staffing standards, VBA claims processing issues and internal controls for VA fee-basis payments. 

In addition to these hearings, featuring the work of our Audit 

and Health Care staff, our investigative team in fiscal year 2013 

made 498 arrests, including a former VAMC director, for wire 

fraud, bribery and conflict of interest, a fiduciary who stole $2.35 

million from 54 veterans, and a service disabled veteran-owned 

small business fraud of $6 million, to include a kickback of $1.2 

million to a VAMC engineer. 

In addition, our Office of Investigations achieved $718 million in 

fines, penalties, restitution and civil judgments. During fiscal year 

2013, our Office of Contract Review reported monetary benefits of 

$678 million in potential cost savings and recoveries. Overall, monetary benefits for fiscal year 2013 were $3.6 billion, representing a 

return on investment of $36 for every $1 in the IG budget. 

Our hot line handled 27,000 contacts generating more than 1,225 

open cases. It was actually a contact with our hot line in April of 

2012 that triggered our review of the Orlando training conferences. 

As you know, our report identified eight issue areas as follows. 

Number one, VA leadership failed to provide proper oversight. 

Number two, VA employees improperly accepted gifts. Number 

three, HR&A exceeded chief of staff authorization for the conferences. Number four, VA inappropriately conducted pre-planning 

site visits. Number five, lack of accountability and control over conference costs. Number six, inadequate management of inter-agency 

agreement terms and costs. Number seven, contract violations and 

lack of oversight led to excessive costs and illegal and wasteful expenditures. And finally, number eight is the inappropriate use of 

government purchase cards. 

To address these shortcomings, we made 49 recommendations to 

the VA secretary, who agreed to take corrective actions. Mr. Chairman, this concludes my statement. Mr. Abe and I will be pleased 

to answer any questions the members may have. 

[Prepared statement of Mr. Griffin follows:] 

25 


Insert offset folio 14 here 86194.014
26 


Insert offset folio 15 here 86194.015
27 

Chairman ISSA. Thank you, and I think we will have a great 

many questions. 

My opening question, Ms. Farrisee, as I said in my opening statement, the Secretary told me many years ago that he inherited a 

culture that he had to change, a culture that he had not encountered in the U.S. military and was shocked that it existed in the 

premier agency to take care of U.S. military after they leave active 

duty. 

In your short time, have you observed problems inherent in the 

attitudes at Veterans Affairs that are part of activities such as 

waste, such as the seemingly impossible task of ever catching up 

to the backlog and the backlog’s backlog? 

Ms. FARRISEE. Mr. Chairman, in my short time, I have not noticed this. What I have noticed is that people seem to understand 

very clearly that there have been more processes put in place, that 

there is a requirement for accountability in this Department. And 

they also understand why that has happened, recognize it. 

Chairman ISSA. Let me follow up, then, because you have only 

been on board since your confirmation in September. Mr. Murray 

has been on board a long time. If I told you you had to produce 

a handbook and you agreed to do so, and you spent millions of dollars every month without that handbook and you came before Congress and you told us about all these things that sound like they 

are right out of a handbook, would you be surprised that my question to you is, why did your organization miss an agreed-on deadline to produce a handbook? And how hard can it be to produce at 

least a draft handbook so guidance can be available while millions 

of dollars are being spent every month? 

Ms. FARRISEE. Mr. Chairman, the guidance that came out in September 2012, the policy that the Secretary rushed to ensure was 

put out as soon as he was advised of the IG’s recommendations in 

August of 2012, is the current policy that has been—— 

Chairman ISSA. But where is the handbook? 

Ms. FARRISEE. The handbook is still in development, and it 

will—— 

Chairman ISSA. Where is the handbook? Can you make a copy 

of the draft of the handbook to us so we can see how much work 

product has gone on? We are talking about millions of dollars being 

spent every month. We are talking about a kind of a, maybe almost 

inappropriate way to reduce travel by saying we are going to cut 

it 20 percent, when in fact, the right number might be 80 percent, 

and is unlikely to be 20 percent. 

The question is, will you make available to this committee all 

draft materials related to this handbook that are in place as of 

today, so we can understand why it is so hard? You understand 

most companies produce a handbook almost immediately so as to 

limit litigation. In the HR business, handbooks of conduct are routine. And yet this seems to be so vexing that Mr. Griffin ha to say 

he doesn’t, I suspect he will say, he doesn’t understand why it is 

so hard to get it out. 

Do you have a note there? 

Ms. FARRISEE. I do, Mr. Chairman. It says the handbook was 

made a part of our response. 

Chairman ISSA. Handbook draft? 

28 

Ms. FARRISEE. Draft. 

Chairman ISSA. And that is current as of today? 

Ms. FARRISEE. As of today. And it will not be complete until, our 

goal is December. 

Chairman ISSA. December. That is a lofty goal. 

Mr. Griffin, you made, the IG overall, you made 49 or so requests. Some of the most important ones, 20 some, 26 or so, are 

unkept to date. Can you find a valid reason that this could not 

have, there could not be greater implementation or at least partial 

implementation as of today? 

Mr. GRIFFIN. I can’t speak to the level of effort that has been 

brought to bear against the 49 items. I can say that in the area 

of the personnel actions that we thought were in order, all but two 

of the people that we felt should have some personnel action taken 

have in fact been completed. 

Chairman ISSA. But personnel action in this case represents no 

loss of pay, people either retired or are still being paid, they simply 

don’t have the jobs they had, is that correct? 

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is a decision that is made at the Department, 

Mr. Chairman. 

Chairman ISSA. And I appreciate it, and you are very important 

to it. But I just wanted to make sure I explained it simply. In this 

case, like in every other case, practically, nobody gets fired in the 

sense that the private sector understands it. Everyone still gets a 

pay unless they choose to retire, then they get their retirement 

pay. So no one lost a day’s pay as a result of their failures to protect millions of dollars of the taxpayers’ money as far as you know, 

is that correct? 

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is correct. 

Chairman ISSA. Okay. My time is expiring, but I would like to 

have the second video, not the Patton, but the other video quickly 

shown, to get it into the record. And then we will immediately go 

to the ranking member. I want to note that this has been edited 

to make it shorter, but it is all original material. And I want to 

thank the IG for their efforts to get us as much material as they 

have. 

[Video shown.] 

Chairman ISSA. I repeat again General Shinseki’s statement that 

there is a problem with the culture. I yield to the ranking member. 

Mr. CUMMINGS. The Inspector General’s report stated that more 

than a year after the Orlando conferences, VA was unable, Inspector General, to account for all conference costs. The VA’s original 

estimate was that the two conferences cost $5.8 million. But when 

the Inspector General’s office reconstructed the expenses, they 

found about $300,000 in additional costs. Is that right? 

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is a partially accurate description. There were 

actually eight or nine different attempts to come up with a number 

by the Department. We came up with the $6.1 million figure as the 

best we could determine based on the available records that VA 

had. 

Mr. CUMMINGS. So did the VA know how much the conferences 

cost? 

Mr. GRIFFIN. No. 

29 

Mr. CUMMINGS. And why do you think that was? It seems as if 

you are doing conferences, you logically keep some type of accounting. You look at your bills, you look at your invoices and whatever. 

Can you try to explain as best you can, first of all, the difference 

between what you found and what they were saying, and then why 

it is and what recommendation did you make to go to that problem? 

Mr. GRIFFIN. There were a number of different issues that led to 

the eventual lack of oversight and the lack of having an ability to 

come up with a precise figure. The original budget numbers that 

were presented to the chief of staff that he approved changed radically. The number of people to be trained was moved down by 

1,200. It was supposed to be 3,000 for $8 million; it became 1,800 

were going to be trained. And based on a service level agreement 

that was executed a month before the hearing, the total cost was 

projected to move up to $9.3 million. 

The problem is, no one was in charge. It was an HR conference. 

Accountability started with the Assistant Secretary. There are two 

SES employees, and between the three of them, they never had a 

single meeting to discuss the conference planning, conference costs, 

et cetera. 

So the budget that the chief of staff signed off on, after that day, 

it vanished. There was no spend plan, there was no cost tracking. 

There were credit card purchases made above the authorized contract level of the purchaser. One individual made 10 purchases that 

had a value of over $100,000 when his contract didn’t allow him 

to make purchases above $3,000. 

Mr. CUMMINGS. Well, did they have a budget? 

Mr. GRIFFIN. They had a dollar figure that they put in front of 

the chief of staff. But after that, no one paid too much attention 

to it. 

Mr. CUMMINGS. Well, Mr. Murray, according to the VA’s September 2012 memorandum, VA offices involved in planning a conference were mandated to fully integrate their budget officers into 

conference planning decisions in order to ensure fiscal discipline. 

Can you tell us whether this has been implemented and discuss 

what difference it makes to the conference budgeting process? And 

do they have budgets now? 

Mr. MURRAY. Thank you, Representative, for that question. 

Indeed, they do. A conference certifying executive now has to review the business case, the rationale, the outcomes for any proposed conference. If it is above $20,000, a second executive has to 

serve as the responsible conference executive and certify and affirm 

those costs in writing in an after-action report. 

So I feel that the discipline is very strong in the process now. I 

might add that my expectation, and I do this every day with the 

auditors, because we get an external audit, and we have 14 clean 

audit opinions, which may surprise some. But fiscal officers, accounting professionals, budget officers are required to keep documentation to support transactions, whether they are a travel obligation, a travel transaction, a contract transaction, you name it, 

purchasing, payroll. But it is in place now, Representative. 

Mr. CUMMINGS. And finally, let me ask you this. The 2012 memo 

also directed the creation of a web-based portal in order to ‘‘accomVerDate Aug 31 2005 09:52 Jan 24, 2014 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00033 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 C:\DOCS\86194.TXT APRIL
30 

plish the data collection and reporting activities associated with 

conference activity by October 1st, 2012.’’ Has that been taken care 

of? 

Mr. MURRAY. That automated portal is not complete. We are collecting the data. But the portal that actually collects the data is 

not complete. 

Mr. CUMMINGS. It is already a year after the deadline. What is 

the problem? 

Mr. MURRAY. We are working with the Office of Information 

Technology on the portal. 

Mr. CUMMINGS. When do you expect it to be done? 

Mr. MURRAY. We will have to get back to you. 

Mr. CUMMINGS. Can you give us something in writing with a 

date that you expect it to be done? We are already over a year late. 

And it just is a bit much. I think we can do better. 

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. MICA. [Presiding] I thank the gentleman and recognize myself for five minutes. 

Ms. Farrisee, you weren’t there while this took place, right? 

Ms. FARRISEE. No, I was not. 

Mr. MICA. Mr. Murray, you were there when this took place? 

Mr. MURRAY. I was, sir. 

Mr. MICA. And what is your title? It looks like it is Deputy Assistant Secretary for Finance? 

Mr. MURRAY. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MICA. So you were overseeing Finance for VA during this period when this took place? 

Mr. MURRAY. Yes, sir, I was Deputy Assistant Secretary for Finance. 

Mr. MICA. This is a list, Ms. Farrisee, of 25 pages, 399 con- ferences, $86.5 million that was spent. Mr. Murray, are you aware 

of this, in 2011, for conferences? Were you aware that this was taking place? 

Mr. MURRAY. We were aware there were a lot of conferences. 

Mr. MICA. Ms. Farrisee, did they need 399 conferences and spend almost $87 million, VA? 

Ms. FARRISEE. Congressman, I can’t answer if they needed them. 

I wasn’t there. 

Mr. MICA. Well, again, right now, for the first nine months of 2012, I have the information you spent $7.5 million for nine 

months. Would that be a little bit more in line with what you 

would recommend? 

Ms. FARRISEE. Congressman, I think you have to look at the type 

of training that was being done at the time. 

Mr. MICA. Again, you, so far nine months this year, you spent 

$7.5 million and they spent $87 million for this entire year. Again, 

outrageous. 

I think the American people are sort of fed up with this. These 

are the $20,000 drumsticks from GSA that they spent. We had the 

guy in the hot tub with the conference in Las Vegas thumbing his 

nose. Then we conducted the IRS, we had the squirting fish that 

cost thousands of dollars and gifts to employees. Now we have VA. 

I have no problem with a conference in Orlando. I don’t represent 

the tourist area, but north of there. No problem with the conVerDate Aug 31 2005 09:52 Jan 24, 2014 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00034 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 C:\DOCS\86194.TXT APRIL
31 

ference in Las Vegas, where GSA got in trouble. It is the spending 

and the amount of spending that goes on. 

Now, you testified, Inspector General, that people accepted gifts, right? And three resigned. I am told also that there were $43,000 

in bonuses to conference planners. Is that correct? I can’t hear you. 

For the record? 

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is correct. 

Mr. MICA. And there are still people here, Mr. Murray was there, 

and he was somewhat in charge of finances, paying the bills for 

this while it went on. Many continue, who were involved, many 

continue to receive salary and benefits. Would you say that is correct, Mr. Griffin? 

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is correct. 

Mr. MICA. Now, they spent almost $100,000 in gifts. This is $20,000 outrageous—bring the teddy bear in. Am I correct, was it 

over $97,000 in gifts for employees and trinkets and stuff? 

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is correct. 

Mr. MICA. And were some rewarded with, now I am told that this 

is the teddy bear, told that some were rewarded with big stuffed 

teddy bears, maybe not this one, but is that correct? 

Mr. GRIFFIN. I can’t speak to that, sir. 

Mr. MICA. The information that we have is this is one of the 

prizes that was given. So taxpayers not only paying for drumsticks, 

squirting fish and now with VA teddy bears. It is absolutely outrageous that again, people are sending their money to Washington 

asking us to be good stewards. And particularly offensive for the 

Veterans Administration, where we should be spending every 

penny for our veterans. So I am offended by this. 

And then the Cleanup Act is almost just as offensive. When you 

were made aware of this, what did they do, Mr. Murray? They 

hired some contractors to look at the spending, is that correct? 

Mr. MURRAY. There were contractors hired. 

Mr. MICA. Two contractors. One got about $188,000 and the other over $200,000, right? 

Mr. MURRAY. Correct. 

Mr. MICA. Four hundred thousand dollars to look at the spending. Outrageous spending to look at the outrageous spending. Do 

you think this is in line? We had the Inspector General look at this. 

You offered what, 49 recommendations for improvement, right? 

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is correct. 

Mr. MICA. And how many have been implemented? I understand 

about half. Is that right, Ms. Farrisee? 

Ms. FARRISEE. Congressman, yes, the personnel actions were 

complete. 

Mr. MICA. About half. 

Ms. FARRISEE. And the directive and the handbook will complete 

it. 

Mr. MICA. What did you do with the $400,000 worth of reports 

that were paid for, contractor reports, to look at the spending of the 

spending? 

Ms. FARRISEE. Those reports were actionable to how we complete 

our policy. It was an objective review that was completed by an 

outside organization to look at all of VA, and not just look at 

HR&A. 

32 

Mr. MICA. Now, some people are going to have, isn’t there at 

least one criminal referral, Mr. Griffin? 

Mr. GRIFFIN. There was a criminal referral and it was declined 

for prosecution by the Department of Justice. 

Mr. MICA. So that person is not going to be prosecuted. 

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is correct. 

Mr. MICA. And we had one witness here who refused to testify, 

of three who were implicated in wrongdoing. I believe that was accepting gifts also, is that right? 

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is correct, on the one that we had the declination. He accepted a number of gifts. 

Mr. MICA. All right. Again, it is sad, I know my members feel the 

same way, when you see the waste at GSA, IRS, and now VA. It 

is pretty offensive to us, to taxpayers and particularly today our 

veterans. 

Let me recognize now Ms. Norton. Mr. Lynch, I am sorry. We 

will go to Mr. Lynch if you are ready. 

Mr. LYNCH. Sure, thank you, Mr. Chairman. And I want to thank 

the witnesses for coming forward and helping the committee with 

its work. 

I do realize that this is a 2011 conference and that there was an 

extensive investigation previously done by the Committee on Veterans Affairs. So this is not exactly a timely hearing. But it does 

point out some examples of waste, fraud and abuse that this committee is certainly charged with responsibility to eradicate. 

I have to say, though, that I have three VA facilities in my district. I have the Brockton VA Hospital, I have the West Roxbury 

VA Hospital, and I have the Jamaica Plains VA Hospital. And I am 

a frequent flyer to my VA hospitals. I visit them on a regular basis 

as well as Walter Reed and Bethesda. The people that I see there 

that care for our veterans on a daily basis are not at all reflected 

in the investigation that is ongoing here. 

It is sad, I agree with the chairman’s statement, it is sad to see 

the allegations on the VA in a broad stroke. I would hate to think 

that the American people think that my doctors, my nurses, my 

staff, my therapists who are working at the VA hospitals, their 

services are indicative of what we are hearing today. It is not. 

The doctors, the nurses, the staff, the therapists at the VA, in 

the city of Boston, they are staying and working at the VA, number 

one, a lot of them are veterans. As I go through the corridors of 

those hospitals, a lot of the folks that are serving our veterans, and 

especially those coming back from Iraq and Afghanistan, as well as 

a lot of World War II veterans who have never in their life had to 

rely on the VA, but do now, Korean War veterans, Vietnam veterans, those docs, those nurses, those staff, therapists, they are 

working for less than what they could earn if they walked across 

the street and worked at a private hospital in the Boston area. 

There are some hospitals there that are very generous in their benefits and their pay. 

But our VA employees, they do the right thing because they believe in their service. They are intentionally staying at the VA so 

that they can, we all want to spend our lives in a meaningful 

cause. I think that a lot of our VA employees do so because they 

33 

believe deeply in serving our veterans, and they do so for all the 

right reasons. 

It pains me greatly to see the administration of the VA caught 

up in this crap and diminishing the excellent service of those employees at the VA. That is what pains me more than anything. 

Now, I know that the VA adopted a lot of the recommendations 

of the Office of Inspector General, and I am happy to see that. And 

there is a problem here. I am not trying to sugarcoat this at all, 

there is a problem here. And we have to make sure that the way 

the VA is administered at the top is reflective of the way those docs 

and nurses and therapists serve every single day in the VA hospitals and the VA facilities around this Country and indeed reflect 

the honor and the dignity that is due to our veterans. That is the 

bottom line here. That is the bottom line. The job that is being 

done at the VA should be reflective of the dignity and the sacrifice 

and the noble intent of those who have served. 

And this is such a departure. It is disgraceful. It is disgraceful. 

So we have to get at this thing. I know some heads have rolled, 

and that is good. They deserve to go. There is a real disconnect between the wonderful, gracious, noble service of our veterans and 

what is going on that we are uncovering in this hearing. I think 

it is a disgrace. 

So I think the administration of VA should take a look at their 

VA hospitals, look at the people who are working there, look at the 

dignity and the sacrifice and the dedication that they exert in caring for our veterans. And look at the veterans who are lying in 

those hospital beds. 

The VA administration ought to go visit, they ought to make it 

mandatory, if you walk through maybe once a week, a couple of 

times a month, walk through that VA hospital so you know who 

you are working for. I think that would change your attitude 100 

percent, if you know who you work for. Because those are America’s best, those are America’s best who did what they did for all 

the right reasons. And the service of the VA should be, as I say, 

reflective of that wonderful service. 

Mr. Chairman, I yield back. 

Mr. MICA. I thank the gentleman. I am going to ask unanimous 

consent of myself and the committee here to put these figures in, 

which I did. I just want the members to know what you are doing 

today and what you have done to date, the results, the GSA spending went from $37 million in 2010 to $4.9 million on conferences. 

GSA from $10.9 million to $1.3 million last year. And then we 

heard today from nearly $87 million to $7.5 million so far. So these 

hearings are having an impact. Without objection, this will be 

made part of the record. 

Mr. MICA. Let me recognize Mr. Walberg. 

Mr. WALBERG. I thank the chairman. And it is important work 

that we are doing, and I think it is good that you mention those 

figures and the changes that are taking place. It is kind of ugly 

work, as well that we do, but it is necessary. Especially in context, 

and I certainly would identify my thoughts and emotions with the 

previous member, Mr. Lynch, about the concern of what is taking 

place here. 

34 

Ms. Farrisee, I certainly wish you all the best in attempting to 

lead to get to the bottom of this and deal with the recommendations, all 49 of them, plus any more that would be helpful, that will 

go on. 

The number two concern that is brought to my district office and 

my office here in Washington from my citizens back in my district 

are VA issues, and the frustration that we continue to have with 

the backlog that makes it difficult to get the information necessary 

or the records necessary for our veterans that are expanding with 

the present war situations that we are in. And I too have the privilege to visit veterans, wounded warriors at Walter Reed then back 

in my district at the Ann Arbor VA Hospital, and see the care that 

they are receiving that is second to none, and the quality upgrades 

of facilities that are taking place. 

So to think that we are wasting resources, not on necessary planning and upgrading of skills, but on things like we have had come 

across our desks in recent history with departments that are 

spending for videos of Dr. Spock, and now we see a parody of Patton, and an attempt to get the Washington Redskins cheerleaders 

for the event. It is just—it shouldn’t happen. 

I would like to queue up an email that specifically refers to one 

of the lead planners of this conference and her concerns. And especially stated, if that email could be queued up, if you will notice 

that she expresses concern, where she says, obviously the money 

is not an issue. That is a stark statement when we talk about $6.1 

million spent on this conference, while the VA is exempted from sequestration because of our concern that veterans’ issue be addressed. When we add a $1.6 billion increase to deal with the backlog, that right now is at over 700,000 benefit claims, backlogs, some 

in my district, Ms. Farrisee, why were conference planners unconcerned with budgetary constraints, from what you have found out 

in your short period of time already? 

Ms. FARRISEE. Congressman, I believe there was a lack of leadership and oversight in any kind of good direction and purpose given 

to the planners. 

Mr. WALBERG. Is this from what you have seen so far, an overarching attitude toward spending throughout the Department? 

Ms. FARRISEE. Congressman, no, it is not. I have seen the policies put into place and the accountability that now exists at the Department. 

Mr. WALBERG. A second slide I would like to point out was a concerned employee who stated, ‘‘Please know that I am willing to 

help where I can, but the scope of the kickoff has grown immensely 

and the work necessary to ensure that kickoff is a success is beyond what I can balance with my regular work.’’ 

Why were planners allowed to forego their normal work tasks for 

the Department in favor of planning conferences? 

Ms. FARRISEE. Congressman, I can’t answer that question, because I was not there. But I will go back to, I do not think there 

was good leadership, oversight on what was happening. I do not 

think that the leadership even knew at these levels everything that 

was happening. 

Mr. WALBERG. Were they ever told? Were employees ever told 

that they were to forego work? Have you found that to be the case? 

35 

Ms. FARRISEE. I have not found that to be the case. But I do not 

know what happened during this time, Congressman. 

Mr. WALBERG. Again, 717,000 backlogged, benefit claims backlogged. There is work to be done, and that does not send a positive 

message. 

Mr. Griffin, I would ask you a question relative to the 49 directives. I would assume the majority of those are considered high directives. There are 26 as far as the first of this month that we 

know of that have not been addressed. 

Could you describe the potential cost savings that could come 

about by addressing these 26 unmet directives that have been 

given for priority improvement? 

Mr. GRIFFIN. I think what our work was able to demonstrate for 

these two conferences was that there was at least $762,000 that 

could have been used for better purposes than trinkets and some 

of the other excesses that occurred. The application to other VA 

conferences, clearly, there is money to be saved. I think some of the 

numbers that were mentioned by the chairman reflect that there 

has been a huge reduction in conference spending this year. 

Mr. WALBERG. Significant, significant reductions. 

Mr. GRIFFIN. Frankly, the September 2012 memo from the chief 

of staff was very thorough. I thought it was aggressive. We just 

need to get to the finish line, get the book published so everybody 

has it. There is a certain protocol and process that it has to go 

through to put a handbook on the street in VA. We need to finish 

that to make sure that all the good plans get enacted. 

I did think that the memo of the end of September, which was 

issued a couple of days before the release of our report, was an aggressive attempt to reign in costs. I think it addressed one of the 

principal shortcomings in the HR conferences, in that nobody was 

in charge. 

Mr. MICA. I thank the gentleman. The gentleman’s time is expired. 

Mr. Davis? 

Mr. DAVIS. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Let me first of 

all associate myself with the remarks made by Mr. Lynch and Mr. 

Walberg relative to the services of VA medical facilities. I have two 

in my district, Hines VA in Hines, Illinois, closely affiliated with 

Loyola University Medical Center, where they provide, both combined, some of the best medical care in the world for any person, 

certainly the veterans that they serve. I also have the pleasure of 

having the Jesse Brown VA Medical Center, which is named for 

the former Secretary, who had a very distinguished career in both 

the military and as Secretary of Veterans Affairs in his service to 

the Country. 

So we certainly want to extol the virtues of those facilities and 

what they do. I think it is most unfortunate that this kind of hearing is necessary. 

Mr. Griffin, let me ask you, the IG report highlights inappropriate and unauthorized use of government purchase cards to 

spend more than $200,000 on the two 2011 conferences. Basically, 

when conference planners wanted to spend money on the conferences, they just charged it to their government credit cards, even 

36 

when they went over their authorized limits and didn’t have approvals. Is that correct? 

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir. 

Mr. DAVIS. And at least seven employees did this? 

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am sorry, how many? 

Mr. DAVIS. Seven? 

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. 

Mr. DAVIS. The report also indicated that the primary event planner was able to circumvent his $3,000 purchasing limit by 

making ten separate purchases totaling more than $100,000. Is 

that correct? 

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is correct. 

Mr. DAVIS. Can you explain how this employee was able to circumvent Federal and VA acquisition regulations? 

Mr. GRIFFIN. There is supposed to be a review process in place 

where someone looks at purchase card activity and makes sure 

that, first of all, the purchase is for the purpose of serving our Nation’s veterans and not for something else. That review process is 

supposed to happen to every cardholder. But if you have a card and 

you have a contract that says you are not authorized to make a 

purchase over $3,000, and you do anyway, the vendor doesn’t know 

that VA put a $3,000 limit on you, they will just take your card 

and hit it for $10,000. 

The problem is that in actuality, the person you are talking 

about, his contract was not even valid because he had moved from 

Veterans Health Care over to this new assignment, and his authority didn’t transfer with him. It is one of the areas that the Department is addressing to tighten down. Frankly, we are doing some 

additional work in the area of purchase cards, to make sure that 

things are in order. 

Mr. DAVIS. Ms. Farrisee, let me ask you, what has the Department done, what is the Department doing to correct this? 

Ms. FARRISEE. Congressman, I am going to turn that over to Mr. 

Murray from the Finance Office. 

Mr. MURRAY. Thank you for that question, Representative. What 

we did, upon immediately learning that this had occurred, and let 

me be clear that there was an approving official that should have 

reviewed each of those purchases and signed off of them, as well 

as a more senior agency program coordinator that should have 

looked at those purchases. So it was quite dismaying, disappointing. I think we were as shocked as anybody that it occurred, 

that that many folks could do the wrong thing. 

But what we did immediately was not just look at the HR purchase card transactions, we looked at the entire Department of Veterans Affairs purchase cards transactions. We immediately got 

with the Office of Acquisitions, and we said, we need to know definitively who has the elevated purchasing authorities and who 

does not. And for those who do not have those elevated purchasing 

authorities, we check every Monday, and if they don’t have it, we 

reduce those cards to the $3,000 micro-purchase limit. 

So the oversight controls went strong, went quick, went in fast. 

Mr. DAVIS. Thank you very much. 

Let me just ask Mr. Griffin, did you find these steps to be adequate? 

37 

Mr. GRIFFIN. I haven’t reviewed the entire response in that area. 

I am not sure if our follow-up team has felt like it meets the requirement of the recommendation or not. But I would be pleased 

to give you an answer for the record. 

Mr. DAVIS. Thank you very much. And thank you very much, Mr. 

Chairman. 

Mr. MICA. I thank the gentleman, and we will be keeping the 

record open. We will have an announcement on that later. 

Mr. Farenthold? 

Mr. FARENTHOLD. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. 

I have been actively involved in conference over-spending and 

have actually sponsored bills with respect to this. But the VA 

spending on conferences to me seems more egregious than any of 

the others, especially when you look at the backlog of claims some 

of our veterans are facing. We are looking at 717,000 backlogged 

claims, in excess of 125 days in some cases. 

So I am going to digress for a second on those backlogged claims 

to set the stage for some conference questions. Secretary Shinseki 

sought to blame the claims backlog on the government shutdown 

when he testified before Congress on October 9th. And I would like 

to ask you, Ms. Farrisee, is it true that the Department only furloughed 4 percent of its employees during the government shutdown? 

Ms. FARRISEE. At the time of the shutdown, yes, there would 

have been more employees furloughed had the government not 

come back. 

Mr. FARENTHOLD. Let me ask Mr. Murray, since you are the finance guy. The VA has been pretty much exempted from cuts and 

sequestration, is that correct? 

Mr. MURRAY. It depends on the program. For instance, we did 

furlough OIT, information technology employees. 

Mr. FARENTHOLD. Isn’t it true that Congress has pretty much 

met every request from the Department to increase its funding to 

process the backlogged claims? I believe the Department actually 

received around $300 million in the continuing resolution that 

would have ended the shutdown. So it seems the VA has the money 

to reduce the backlog of claims. Why haven’t we seen a significant 

decrease? Where do we see this problem getting solved? Ms. 

Farrisee, I will let you take a stab at that. 

Ms. FARRISEE. Congressman, the Secretary’s goal is 2015 for the 

backlog on those records. They have made significant progress. 

They have used the use of overtime, they have trained the employees, training is critical to the mission. Training is critical to us 

being able to continue to move forward. 

Mr. FARENTHOLD. Let us talk for a second about overtime. During this process, and during these investigations into the conference spending, the committee found that Department employees 

received overtime pay for days in which they participated in activities entirely unrelated to the conferences. I have a problem with 

overtime to plan the conferences to begin with, but we are looking 

at helicopter rides and spa treatments. Wouldn’t that overtime 

have been better spent on employees who are actually processing 

veterans’ claims? 

38 

Ms. FARRISEE. Congressman, you are absolutely right, that is extremely disturbing. I would expect my leaders in the future to have 

and execute good fiduciary responsibilities. 

Mr. FARENTHOLD. Earlier this year the House passed H.R. 313, 

the Government Spending and Accountability Act of 2013, which 

caps non-military spending on conferences and requires a detailed 

itemized report on Federal conference spending. That bill is designed to ensure that conferences are for training and work purposes, rather than taxpayer-funded vacations. It also adds transparencies and measures to remove loopholes from the President’s 

Executive Order 13589 entitled Promoting Effective Spending. 

Earlier this year, I sponsored that bill, and it was passed. Unfortunately, it appears at least in this case, and this s before the VA 

people lost sight of what the purposes of these conferences were, 

for training. And we have no itemized expense report. Mr. Griffin, 

you have testified you don’t think there is a way to actually find 

out how much was spent, is that correct? 

Mr. GRIFFIN. We did the best we could to review available receipts, and that is where we came up with the number. But we are 

not confident that that is 100 percent of the expenses. 

Mr. FARENTHOLD. Ms. Farrisee and Mr. Murray, don’t you think 

it is important that we keep detailed information on what we are 

spending the taxpayers’ money on? 

Ms. FARRISEE. It is extremely important, and the new policies 

that were put into place in 2012 will allow us to keep this information. When the handbook and directive are out, that will complete 

that. But we have been doing that kind of accountability. 

Mr. FARENTHOLD. And I understand you all are working on a 

web portal for some of this information. Do we have any idea what 

that is costing? We are not going into the healthcare.gov $600 million range, are we? 

Mr. MURRAY. I do not, but we can take a look at that. 

Mr. FARENTHOLD. It seems the government has a bad habit of 

spending a little bit too much money on websites. That being said, 

is there a process in place to try to move some of this training that 

is done at these high dollar conferences to online? You look at what 

the general trend is in the training community now, you look at 

sites like Lynda.com, totaltraining.com, you have gotomeeting and 

Google hangouts, all sorts of opportunities to do this online. Can 

you give me a quick overview of what you all are trying to do to 

move more of this stuff online? 

Ms. FARRISEE. Congressman, yes, you are absolutely right. We 

have a talent management system which has numerous courses online. We do webcasts, we do other virtual blended training. And we 

are looking into the future to continue to do more of that training, 

because we absolutely agree, training can be accomplished in other 

forms. 

Mr. FARENTHOLD. I see that my time is expired. 

Mr. MICA. I thank the gentleman and recognize the gentleman 

from Virginia, Mr. Connolly. 

Mr. CONNOLLY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. By the way, you 

looked really good with that teddy bear up there. Very nice. 

Mr. MICA. Anything is an improvement. Thank you. 

[Laughter.] 

39 

Mr. CONNOLLY. Ms. Farrisee, Tammy Duckworth, Congresswoman Duckworth, wanted me to point out that you are here after 

a 30-year career in the United States Army, retiring as a major 

general, is that correct? 

Ms. FARRISEE. Yes it is, Congressman. 

Mr. CONNOLLY. On behalf of certainly Congresswoman 

Duckworth and myself and I know my colleagues, thank you for 

your 30 years of service in the U.S. Army to your Country. 

Ms. FARRISEE. Thank you. It has been my privilege. 

Mr. CONNOLLY. Let me ask a question of, well, first of all, Mr. 

Murray, you answered something to Mr. Farenthold on furloughs. 

He asked whether only 4 percent of the veterans workforce was 

furloughed and which parts were furloughed. And you answered, 

OIT people. 

Mr. MURRAY. Right. Actual furlough notices did go out to our information technology people, not all of them, not the ones that were 

actually at the medical centers, but some that did not meet the 

necessary implication, the high bar, were furloughed. 

Mr. CONNOLLY. To this committee, particularly, that has a resonant tone to it, because we are very struck with the fact that IT, 

properly deployed and invested in, can really make a difference in 

terms of adding capability and capacity, especially in a resourcethin era. 

One of the things that IT capacity for the Veterans Administration was being deployed for was to eat into the notorious backlog 

of applications and claims, is that not correct? 

Mr. MURRAY. That is one of the programs they support. 

Mr. CONNOLLY. So those people were furloughed for 16 days? 

Mr. MURRAY. I do not specifically know the status of those individuals. 

Mr. CONNOLLY. Ms. Farrisee, do you know the status of those individuals? 

Ms. FARRISEE. I know that all of the OI&T were not furloughed. 

Some were in what we considered an accepted status to be able to 

continue to support. 

Mr. CONNOLLY. Did it disrupt our eating into the backlog? Because you have actually made progress in the last year, about 30 

percent, eating into that backlog, is that correct? 

Ms. FARRISEE. We have, and it did make a difference, because 

the employees were furloughed also from the VBA. 

Mr. CONNOLLY. So we in Congress can’t have it both ways, we 

can’t beat up on you on the fact that you have a backlog and then 

we shut down the government, forcing you to make some tough decisions about who gets furloughed and who doesn’t, hampering an 

effort that otherwise had actually been showing significant 

progress. 

Mr. Griffin, do conferences have any management value at all, 

from your point of view? 

Mr. GRIFFIN. Absolutely. In our report, we indicated that we determined that the training was valid training, and that the previous training that had been conducted, which was in 2009, hit a 

small percentage of the HR staff. So we felt that the actual training was justified. 

40 

Mr. CONNOLLY. And there was a lot of training going on, even 

at the conferences where the ‘‘we are family’’ video was just shown. 

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. We included the training agenda as an appendix to our report, so people could see what the courses were, how 

long they lasted and so on. 

Mr. CONNOLLY. And I didn’t understand your answer to Mr. 

Davis. This happened two years ago, the particular incident we are 

talking about. Have you reviewed new procedures, given we have 

a lot of new people, including Ms. Farrisee in place, to clean up 

what happened? Are you satisfied that there are new protocols, 

policies and procedures in place to prevent excess spending, frivolous spending from occurring from legitimate training conferences 

and other parts of conferencing that can really help in terms of networking and the like? 

Mr. GRIFFIN. I think that it is a work in progress. I know that 

previously, the memorandum that came out four days before the 

issuance of our report laid down a lot of very important markers 

that people would have to meet at future conferences. But we need 

to finish up about half of the recommendations, which are still in 

various stages of completion. 

Mr. CONNOLLY. Briefly, Ms. Farrisee, could you address that? 

How confident are you that we have developed protocols, procedures and policies that would satisfy the IG’s office and more importantly, satisfy the American people that the investments we do 

make in legitimate training and conferences is wisely invested? 

Ms. FARRISEE. I am confident that the policy that was put out 

in 2012 was the first large step in doing that. Included in this policy is a form called the Conference Certification Form, which prohibits many things that had happened at that conference, prohibits 

things like purchasing of entertainment and many of the waste, 

fraud and abuse that you all have discussed here today. So we have 

already put those into place. It will be in a directive, it will be in 

a handbook by December. But it has evolved over this last year, 

and we look forward to our handbook. 

Mr. CONNOLLY. And if the chairman would just allow one final 

technical question? In answer to Chairman Issa’s question about, 

would you be willing to provide a draft of that handbook, you said 

you have already provided it. 

Ms. FARRISEE. It was one of the responses we have provided. 

Mr. CONNOLLY. When was that provided? 

Ms. FARRISEE. In the OIG report, October 23rd. It was one of the 

responses. 

Mr. CONNOLLY. So just about a week ago. Thank you so much, 

thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. MICA. I thank the gentleman. And we have had trouble, we 

haven’t gotten a lot of information, late in July, unfortunately and 

then just before the hearing. 

Mr. Bentivolio, you are recognized. 

Mr. BENTIVOLIO. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. 

Ms. Farrisee, thank you for your service. I too spent some time 

at Fort Knox. I was medivacked out of Iraq in 2007. And I was at 

the Warrior Transition Unit in October of 2007. Were you there at 

that time? 

41 

Ms. FARRISEE. I was not, but you would not recognize the new 

Warrior Transition Center. They have opened a wonderful new facility at Fort Knox. 

Mr. BENTIVOLIO. Since when, 2007 or before that? 

Ms. FARRISEE. They didn’t open the facility until 2013. 

Mr. BENTIVOLIO. Okay. That is good to hear, because when I got 

there, everybody was in a hullaballoo, because a soldier had died 

in the barracks. So the Warrior Transition Unit for wounded and 

injured soldiers from Afghanistan and Iraq, they said, you don’t understand. I said, what don’t I understand? They didn’t find his body 

for four days. The Army said 12 hours, the newspaper said two 

days, the boots on the ground said he opened his pizza on a Friday 

and they found him Monday night. 

My own experience there, I waited six hours for the pharmacist 

to tell me they didn’t carry the prescription, come back on Thursday. And when I went back on Thursday, they had forgotten to requisition that medication, for my neck injury. When I got out, I went 

back, you get discharged from active duty, you go back to your National Guard unit and I was ordered to go and apply for VA benefits. Ordered. Because being a Vietnam veteran 30 years ago, with 

my experience with VA, I didn’t want anything to do with it. Do 

you understand? You’re familiar with those feelings, Vietnam veterans? 

Ms. FARRISEE. Yes, I am. 

Mr. BENTIVOLIO. And Congressman Connolly mentioned, I am 

sorry he is not here, but he said there has been a 30 percent improvement—thank you, Mr. Connolly—a 30 percent improvement 

in that since 1973. That is a 1 percent improvement for the last 

30 years, as far as I am concerned, because I am a veteran and I 

have direct experience with the VA. The orders I was given, I filled 

out my paperwork and waited 11 months for the VA to tell me they 

had lost my medical records. Luckily, being an old soldier, I had 

made hard copies. So I took them down to the Detroit VA and stood 

behind the gentleman as he photocopied a stack about 8 inches tall 

of my medical records. Within 60 days, I had my disability, 50 percent. 

As a Congressman, I toured the facilities and got the dog and 

pony show. They were very gracious, very professional. I saw a lot 

of new improvements to the VA. But when I talked to some of my 

constituents that come in, handling their casework, I see the same 

story that I saw in 1973. 

And the question. You have been a general in the military, you 

are familiar with FM101–5? 

Ms. FARRISEE. Not off the top of my head. 

Mr. BENTIVOLIO. Well, it is the officer’s bible, it is called Staff 

Organizations and Operations. 

Ms. FARRISEE. Okay, yes, I am familiar with it. 

Mr. BENTIVOLIO. Could somebody hand her this, please, chapter 

four, page 1 of FM101–5 states, could you read that for me, please, 

where I have circled it? 

Ms. FARRISEE. Yes, I will, Congressman. ‘‘The commander is responsible for all that his staff does or fails to do. He cannot delegate this responsibility. The final decision as well as the final responsibility remains with the commander.’’ 

42 

Mr. BENTIVOLIO. And you carried that Army training with you to 

the VA, correct? 

Ms. FARRISEE. Correct. 

Mr. BENTIVOLIO. Can you tell me why commanders are responsible for the actions and attitudes of those under them? 

Ms. FARRISEE. Because we are placed in that position of responsibility and we must incur that responsibility for every action. 

Mr. BENTIVOLIO. So in the military, the actions of service members under the commander’s authority are often directly attributed 

to the leadership and culture of the group, correct? 

Ms. FARRISEE. Correct. 

Mr. BENTIVOLIO. The VA is no exception. The disgraceful attitudes and lack of concern over wasting taxpayers’ funds could only 

be explained by the fact that the leadership of the VA is flawed. 

Until the stagnant attitudes at the very top of the VA are eliminated, we cannot truly hope to eliminate the many problems plaguing the VA that in the end are hurting our veterans the most, correct? 

Ms. FARRISEE. Correct. 

Mr. BENTIVOLIO. So let me ask you this. I am new to Congress. 

I was a taxpayer, worked in the service. Served my Country in two 

wars. And I see the IRS, EPA, the Energy Department, and now 

the VA wasting taxpayers’ money. What do you think I should do? 

What can I do to stop that from happening? Because what I think 

is I would like to fire you all and start over. That is my feeling. 

But what is reality? Reality is I have to work with you. How am 

I going to get improvements, 100 percent improvements, more than 

100 percent improvements? Because all I saw is 30 percent improvement over the last 30 years. That is 1 percent a year. Do I 

have to wait until 2083 to get 100 percent from the VA? 

Ms. FARRISEE. Congressman, I believe that the Department is 

working, and we plan to work faster than that. 

Mr. BENTIVOLIO. I have heard that for 30 years. Actions speak 

louder than words. What are you going to do tomorrow to eliminate 

that backlog, to get it done? Because that backlog is the same backlog we had in 1973, 1974, 1975. If you want something screwed up, 

let the government do it. That is the way I look at it. That is not 

what my taxpayers are expecting. I want quality service to our veterans, not tomorrow, well, tomorrow, next week, not in 2083. 

Mr. MICA. I thank the gentleman, and he yields back the balance 

of his time. Ms. Norton? 

Ms. NORTON. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. 

Just let me say, as I begin this series of questions, the backlog 

is not the same backlog. That is one of my concerns here. Because 

this agency has been given responsibilities it did not have in previous administrations. So when I heard initially that it was a VA 

hearing, I said, oh, it must be on the backlog of claims. 

Of course, the reason we look so closely now at VA is that the 

President, hearing all the complaints from veterans about posttraumatic syndrome, changed the standard, making it more possible for veterans to show PTSD. So that is not the same backlog, 

there probably always has been a backlog. But that is the reason 

this agency, I think, is under very, very real scrutiny. 

43 

Now, we have had hearings here. In fact, in two of my committees on conferences. The first, and I note that this conference was 

held in 2011. So perhaps the VA was not on ‘‘fair notice.’’ But in 

April of 2012, there were hearings about the GSA conferences. And 

those hearings resulted in literally the beheading of the top of the 

agency, the very top of the agency, the GSA administrator and the 

person who headed the main division of the GSA, the Public Buildings Service. 

These occurred in 2011, and there was some evidence that this 

kind of conference goings-on has been systematic in Federal agencies for many years now. What made us take very special note was, 

of course, the outlandish GSA conference, but also the fact that we 

were in very hard times and we still are. 

Now, Mr. Griffin, you have testified that there was, in most of 

these instances, failure of the senior officials to give the proper 

oversight. Now, one begins to wonder about conferences in hard 

times and about conferences with agencies that have an additional 

backlog. Not the Vietnam backlog, but an additional backlog. Now, 

as far as I asked staff, as far as I could figure our, Mr. Griffin, they 

said training did occur, and we think about 12 percent might be 

chalked off to entertainment, even waste, with most of it going to 

training, is that correct, of these conferences? 

Mr. GRIFFIN. I can’t put a percentage on it for you, Ms. Norton. 

They did have plenary sessions in the beginning, in the morning. 

Ms. NORTON. Were these conferences largely devoted to training 

which we understand the VA staff may have needed, we just spoke 

about PTSD, or was a disproportionate amount of time spent on 

these other activities? 

Mr. GRIFFIN. I wouldn’t say it was disproportionate. There were 

four hours of classroom training, if you will, each day. 

Ms. NORTON. Four hour each day. 

Mr. GRIFFIN. Right. And there was a plenary session in the 

morning and there was a plenary session at the end of the day. 

Ms. NORTON. Was the plenary, do you count that in the four 

hours, or is that additional? 

Mr. GRIFFIN. No. 

Ms. NORTON. So it is important to note, this is an agency that 

needed training, they are working on a wholly new form of disability that the VA had not fully recognized before. Now, I ran a 

Federal agency, and I am with those who say that of course, you 

don’t want to wipe out all opportunities to have some fun, particularly people who are under the kinds of pressure the VA is under. 

It is important to note that these people may have had some steam 

to let off, and that is the kind of stuff out of context that never tells 

me anything. Because if that happened, for example, in one of this 

12 percent of the time, I am not so sure that would have been so 

bad. 

So it doesn’t tell me anything. What tells me much more is what 

we did not learn from the GSA conference, and that is that most 

of the time there was being spent, as apparently it was here, on 

training. And I must say, given PTSD, that needed training. 

Now, of course, if you head a government agency and you are 

overburdening your senior official, you designate somebody else or 

you hire somebody else. They have designated a conference certiVerDate Aug 31 2005 09:52 Jan 24, 2014 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00047 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 C:\DOCS\86194.TXT APRIL
44 

fying official and he has all kinds of duties. Mr. Griffin, this, we 

now must have a conference certifying official, and he is responsible for seeing the after-action review, for seeing this special training, that is not a new hire, is it? Ms. Farrisee, that is not a new 

hire, is it? 

Ms. FARRISEE. No, Congresswoman, it is not a new hire. 

Ms. NORTON. So those are duties in addition to duties that—let 

me just suggest that as important as the training is, and I am almost through, Mr. Chairman, I appreciate your indulgence, it is 

difficult to understand how somebody who has your, the agency’s 

mandate now, with this extra backlog, in addition to whatever 

backlog you may have had, it is going to be very difficult to do 

what is the central function of the agency and pay a lot of attention, as you now require, given what has been discovered, to conferences. And I think the agency is going to have to look very carefully at what I would normally regard as a very important activity, 

and see if the training can be done as training, perhaps in the locations. Because I just don’t see how this conference certifying official, as important and responsible as that designation is, is going 

to be able to do that and do it what Congress is really looking at 

you to do, and that is to get rid of this backlog and deal with our 

veterans. 

Thank you very much. 

Mr. MICA. I thank the gentlelady. Mr. Duncan? 

Mr. DUNCAN. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I first want 

to commend Mr. Bentivolio for his courage in speaking out in the 

way in which he did. Apparently there are some or many, employees of the VA that think that they are immune from criticism, because they know that all members of Congress want to support the 

veterans. I can tell you that my father was the State Legion commander in 1954, my Uncle Joe was State Legion commander in 

1963, and those were times, in the 1950s and 1960s, when the 

American Legions around the Country were huge. And I am the 

product of Bowie State and now one of the, I think it’s only about 

19 percent of the Congress who are veterans. 

I am proud of my service and appreciated the education and opportunities that I got from the military. On the other hand, I know 

that most veterans don’t want to see the taxpayers abused or 

money wasted, even in the VA. And we have this, I want to commend Mr. Griffin and Mr. Abe for the work that they have done. 

We have this report that says there was an email in which one 

Department employees said, we are a large agency with deep pockets. And it says this email response was indicative of a larger problem throughout the conference planning process. Planners disregarded any budgetary concerns and engaged in out of control 

spending. They exercised extremely poor stewardship of taxpayer 

dollars. That is a very disturbing report. 

General Farrisee, in the time of a massive $17 trillion debt that 

is headed up much higher and much faster than ever before, how 

does a statement like this, we are a large agency with deep pockets, how do you think that reflects on the Department? 

Ms. FARRISEE. It is a very troubling statement, Congressman. I 

do not believe it reflect well. I do not believe that is the thought 

process today. I do believe that fiduciary responsibilities are taken 

45 

very seriously and the policies that have been put in place will 

eliminate those types of thoughts. 

Mr. DUNCAN. Well, another email obtained by the committee, a 

Department employee stated, in this place you have to get it all 

when you can. We have heard and read that this $6.1 million on 

these conferences, that planners, it says planners spent, I think 

Mr. Griffin said $762,000 or some figure like that. Was that the figure, Mr. Griffin, on trinkets? 

Mr. GRIFFIN. The total overspend was $762,000 as far as we 

could determine. 

Mr. DUNCAN. But it could have been more. And then we hand in 

this report that the planners were using these trips, these various 

resort locations, as just paid vacations by the taxpayers. It seems 

to me that this type of activity needs to be stopped and it needs 

to be restricted. If the employees of the VA are patriotic, dedicated 

employees, this will stop. 

General Farrisee, why do you think conference planners were 

able to maximize spending on these promotional products? Did any 

supervisor step in to say that these amounts were too high? Or did 

they just not control this much at all? 

Ms. FARRISEE. Congressman, I believe there was a lack of oversight through this whole conference planning. There was not 

enough leadership attention to all the details. 

Mr. DUNCAN. Well, I certainly hope that this stops. All this 

money, instead of it being paid vacations for VA employees, as others have said, could have been spent in many, many better ways. 

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. MICA. Thank you. I recognize the gentleman from Nevada, 

Mr. Horsford. 

Mr. HORSFORD. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

On October 1st, 2012, the Inspector General’s office publicly released a report issuing 49 recommendations on conference oversight, internal controls and spending. Mr. Griffin, how many recommendations did Secretary Shinseki concur with? 

Mr. GRIFFIN. The Secretary concurred with all of the recommendations. 

Mr. HORSFORD. And in fact, the VA had already issued a conference oversight memorandum that began implementing many of 

those recommendations when the report was released, is that correct? 

Mr. GRIFFIN. We shared our draft report with the Department in 

August. They had an opportunity to see what the issues were. And 

as I previously testified, they did generate an aggressive memorandum laying out new guidance to try and address a lot of the 

issues. 

Mr. HORSFORD. How many of the 49 recommendations has the 

Department finished implementing? 

Mr. GRIFFIN. We got a flurry of activity in the past few days, 

which is a byproduct of the hearing, so we are grateful for the 

hearing. Roughly half is my belief. But we will get you an answer 

with the precise number for the record. We track these recommendations on a quarterly basis. We send a reminder to the Department that this is still an open recommendation and how are 

you progressing and getting to closure on it. So it is a process that 

46 

we have had in place. I am told now by my colleague that 26 of 

the 49 are open. 

Mr. HORSFORD. So 26? 

Mr. GRIFFIN. Twenty-six out of 49 remain open. There has been 

some exchange of information back and forth between our followup staff and the Department where indications are that progress 

is being made but we have not gotten enough information to say 

that they have met the requirements of the recommendation. 

Mr. HORSFORD. So there are 23 that are still in process? 

Mr. GRIFFIN. No, there are 26. Twenty-three are closed, 26 are 

open. 

Mr. HORSFORD. And of the 26 that are open, where is the Department in the process and the progress and what is the follow-up on 

the implementation until they are completed? 

Mr. GRIFFIN. I can’t speak to all 26 of them. I have seen some 

of the responses and as I have indicated, there is progress being 

made. But we are not going to close those recommendations until 

we are satisfied that they have nailed it. And so far, that is not 

the case in all of them. Three of them involved personnel actions 

which I understand the Department intends to conclude tomorrow. 

Mr. HORSFORD. Is there a date certain when they all have to be 

completed by? 

Mr. GRIFFIN. We will follow up until they are done. 

Mr. HORSFORD. But there is not a deadline? 

Mr. GRIFFIN. There is not a deadline. But as things tend to get 

older, we do send a past due list to the Congress every quarter to 

bring it to their attention that some of these things have been out 

there for a long time. We seek to get any assistance we can in making sure that the Department understands the importance and 

takes care of the problem. 

Mr. HORSFORD. Okay. Ms. Farrisee, as Mr. Griffin just indicated, 

the Department now has additional reporting requirements to Congress regarding these conferences. How often is the VA required to 

report on conference spending? 

Ms. FARRISEE. I will have to pass that question to Mr. Murray 

on conference spending. 

Mr. MURRAY. We have to report conference spending quarterly 

and annually to the Congress as well as OMB. 

Mr. HORSFORD. And what kind of information is now included in 

these reports? And who do they go to? 

Mr. MURRAY. Committees on veterans affairs. Our reports go to 

the OIG, reports go to OMB. It is detailed breakdowns on conference spending costs by categories elaborated in the statute. 

Mr. HORSFORD. So the oversight is there for the conference 

spending on a quarterly and annual basis? 

Mr. MURRAY. I believe it is. And I actually believe there is a lot 

of oversight before a conference is ever approved, which is where 

I think the key oversight belongs is, are there alternative methods 

to do this? Is there another way to accomplish this training, short 

of traveling and enlisting a facility and incurring all those incumbent costs. We make a very strong, we require the activity to make 

a strong case there first. And then we make them, if they make the 

case and there are good learning outcomes and they can demVerDate Aug 31 2005 09:52 Jan 24, 2014 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00050 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 C:\DOCS\86194.TXT APRIL
47 

onstrate there are good learning, important outcomes that can be 

measured, then we look at their analysis of different venues. 

I think that is where the control exists. 

Mr. HORSFORD. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. MICA. I thank the gentleman. Mr. Meadows, the gentleman 

from North Carolina, is recognized. 

Mr. MEADOWS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I thank each of you 

for coming 

I want to start off by saying that there are a tremendous amount 

of dedicated workers. I know in Veterans Affairs, there’s a number 

of very dedicated employees. Our committee staff here is unbelievably dedicated, they do a great job, truly, for the American people. 

So I don’t want anything to be misconstrued or out there that there 

is not an appreciation for those who serve our Country and work 

in government. Because these hearings can come out that way. 

At the same time, we must address a few of these issues. Because I have other governmental agencies saying, why in the world 

do they get to travel and I have people in the Blue Ridge Parkway 

who can’t go from one end of the Blue Ridge Parkway to others in 

their service area without having to come back because of the unbelievable spending that goes on in other areas. 

With that being said, we have some $762,000 that was spent according to the IG’s report. And Ms. Farrisee, you have said, and 

Mr. Murray, you have said as well, that top officials didn’t know 

about it, there wasn’t the proper oversight. Could you put up an 

email slide here, queue up the slide for me, this is an email, a senior official email to conference planners that says, ‘‘Bottom line, you 

don’t have to worry about a thing.’’ 

Now, when a top official asserts to conference planners that they 

don’t have to worry about the funding, does that not send the 

wrong message? Mr. Murray? 

Mr. MURRAY. Absolutely. It is totally the wrong message. 

Mr. MEADOWS. When do I get to tell the veterans in North Carolina, of which you do not have a good track record of processing 

claims in North Carolina, many of the veterans that I talk to have 

to wait, some as many as 600 days to get their claims handled. 

When do I get to tell them, bottom line, you don’t have to worry 

about a thing? When are we going to get to that point? 

Does this type of spending Ms. Farrisee, when we sent out a 

word like this, what does it tell the American people, when we say, 

bottom line, does it show that we have an unlimited budget in the 

VA? 

Ms. FARRISEE. Congressman, we absolutely don’t have an unlimited budget. And I think it shows a past history of bad decisions, 

bad leadership that controls have been put on. 

Mr. MEADOWS. I agree. So how many people got fired because of 

the bad leadership and bad decisions? How many? I think I know 

the answer. How many got fired for bad leadership and bad decisions? 

Ms. FARRISEE. None fired that I am aware of. 

Mr. MEADOWS. Mr. Murray, how many in your organization got 

fired? 

Mr. MURRAY. None in my organization. 

48 

Mr. MEADOWS. Okay. How many of them got disciplined greatly 

in your organization, Mr. Murray? 

Mr. MURRAY. There was no discipline in mine. 

Mr. MEADOWS. So no discipline no firings, but yet we have bad 

leadership and bad decisions. Let’s go on a little bit further, because I am even more troubled by the next slide. Here is an email 

that the Department approved a $450,000 marketing budget for a 

conference. Now, why do we need such a large marketing budget 

to make employees go to a conference that they’re required to go 

to? Why would we do that? Who makes that decision? Who would 

have made the decision to approve that? 

Ms. FARRISEE. The leadership of HR&A at the time would have 

made that decision. 

Mr. MEADOWS. Okay, and they are still employed, right? This 

was a good decision on their part, to market it? 

Ms. FARRISEE. They are no longer with the VA. 

Mr. MEADOWS. Okay. And you were very kind, Ms. Farrisee, in 

the way you responded. I want to thank you for your service and 

thank you for the way that you responded. 

Mr. Murray, I am a little bit troubled, because as we see these 

emails coming out, don’t ever play poker. Because they are rolling 

your eyes and huffing and having disdain for the IG as these 

emails come out. Do you think that your organization does a great 

job, Mr. Murray? 

Mr. MURRAY. My organization, whenever we become aware of 

these issues, we find weaknesses in internal controls, whether the 

IG finds it, General Accountability Office finds it, our internal or 

external auditors find them, we immediately take actions to correct, mitigate, fix these kinds of deficiencies. We have a good, collaborative relationship with the IG and we work in a transparent 

and accountable fashion. 

Mr. MEADOWS. But your demeanor today at this hearing doesn’t 

show that. I have been watching you. I watch people all the time. 

So your demeanor would indicate that you are a little frustrated by 

these emails as they roll out, as they are telling a story. Do you 

agree with the story that this is indicative of those who are making 

decisions, that they didn’t have an accountability for cost? 

Mr. MURRAY. The employees that work for me, the employees I 

work with, the leaders I work with have a strong accountability for 

the costs, for their actions, exercise good judgment. So I find this 

very dismaying, very disappointing, sir. And that is the expression 

I would like to convey. 

Mr. MEADOWS. So when does this translate into my veterans in 

North Carolina being able to count, the moms and dads, the children counting on those, being taken care of? When are we going to 

get our act together? Not just on conferences. 

I yield back. 

Mr. MICA. I thank the gentleman. Waiting patiently and last but 

not least, and I think a day older after celebrating her birthday, 

the gentlelady from New Mexico, Ms. Lujan Grisham, you are recognized. 

Ms. LUJAN GRISHAM. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you 

for recognizing that yes, indeed, I am another year older, which, 

49 

given the alternative, I am willing to take. I had a nice time last 

night. 

I know that being one of, maybe the last person to talk, that you 

are clear that I think both sides, my colleagues on this committee, 

are clear that in the best of circumstances, our job and yours, no 

matter how much resources you have or don’t have, is to use that 

funding in the most effective and streamlined way that you can. 

And that further, I would agree that where you have the flexibility 

to move as much of your administrative funds, including training 

and conferences, into the direct services and benefits where you are 

actually making a difference for veterans and families directly. 

Given that I have 20 plus years in local and State government and 

worked as a cabinet secretary, I was clear that my dollars that 

were appropriated for me needed to go to seniors and their families. That was an effective use of my time. 

However, I also recognize that when we react strictly and narrowly, we can also do damage. Because if I want you to provide 

those direct services and benefits in a meaningful way, your staff 

must be trained and have access to innovative new resources and 

tools. And if we do get a new software program implemented that 

really helps with the backlog and is more effective, you are going 

to need training just at that level. And that is not really what we 

are talking about here, but I am a big fan of having appropriately 

trained and a productive public and private workforce that are 

doing the best possible job. 

So I am certainly not going to be your advocate, I don’t think 

anybody here is, for spending nearly a million dollars on a conference that had marketing. We know that that is never going to 

happen again, or your jobs now is make that happen. We also recognize in a public system there are limitations about how you deal 

with accountability. I think that is an area that we ought to do a 

better job too, in terms of holding folks accountable. 

So thank you for being here. Thank you for owning this problem 

and thank you for implementing as many of those recommendations. But I am going to take a different twist, which is, I think 

that the OMB’s reaction might cause harm and not get to the real 

issue, which is, we expect you to be effective and smart and professional about how you spend all of your money, regardless of what 

it is and what it is intended for. 

So I am going to remind folks that last year, OMB ordered Federal agencies to reduce travel and conference expenses by 30 percent by 2016, and then my district is home to Sandia National Laboratories, which is one of the critical players in the Nation’s complex energy, national defense, cybersecurity and employs some of 

the Country’s best and brightest minds. I am going to read you an 

excerpt from a letter that Dr. Paul Hommert, the Director of 

Sandia Laboratories, wrote to me about these restrictions. 

He shares my concern that these will harm the ability of the national labs in their research, their scientists and engineers to share 

knowledge and collaborate with their peers in academia and industry. These interactions are critical to keeping our researchers at 

the cutting edge in their field. 

He shares my desire to ensure that we are spending our taxpayer 

dollars wisely while effectively helping the government accomplish 

50 

its missions. Dr. Hommert offers suggestions for developing standards for evaluating and managing the risk and cost of conference 

travel spending. And then I ask, Mr. Chairman, unanimous consent to place the whole letter in the record. 

Chairman ISSA. [Presiding] Without objection, so ordered. 

Ms. LUJAN GRISHAM. Thank you, sir. And I have another letter 

that is from the Center for Association Leadership, a watchdog organization, who is also looking at these balances. Clearly we don’t 

want these mistakes made. But we want to be careful that we don’t 

minimize opportunities that make us a more efficient and effective 

government. And I would ask unanimous consent to put this letter 

into the record, Mr. Chairman. 

Chairman ISSA. Without objection, so ordered. 

Ms. LUJAN GRISHAM. And that is really my statement. I only 

have 30 seconds, and I am not sure if there is anything to respond 

to except, I hope that what we leave this hearing with is the kind 

of issues that we have identified should never come before this 

Committee or anyone else again. We are expecting wise, smart, efficient, effective leadership in all of our public entities. We want to 

be sure that the recommendations that you put in place do effectively prohibit this kind of waste but don’t limit the opportunities 

to have a well-trained, well-recognized, productive workforce. My 

fear is we will go too far and we won’t do health research, scientific 

research and we won’t find the best way to serve our veterans and 

their families. 

Thank you very much, and with that, Mr. Chairman, I yield 

back. 

Chairman ISSA. I thank the gentlelady. Does the ranking member want to close? 

Seeing none, Ms. Farrisee, I am informed by staff that having reviewed what was sent to us as ‘‘the manual,’’ entitled memorandum, without objection be placed in the record. 

Chairman ISSA. With all due respect, I have had to have manuals under ISO–9000 that complied. This ain’t it. This isn’t even 

close to it. Is there some other document that we are unaware of 

that would reflect a manual? You can confer with your staff. 

Ms. FARRISEE. Mr. Chairman, the handbook was included in the 

OIG response on October 23rd. 

Chairman ISSA. We did not receive that response. October 23rd 

was pretty recent. 

Mr. Griffin, do you know something about this? 

Mr. GRIFFIN. As I mentioned in your absence, Mr. Chairman, 

there has been a flurry of documents being sent to us as a result 

of the hearing, for which we are grateful. 

Chairman ISSA. So in other words, if we keep hauling them in, 

we will get what we ask for? 

Mr. GRIFFIN. I can’t say that I have personal knowledge of receipt of the manual. I don’t question the integrity of the answer 

given, but I haven’t seen it myself. 

Chairman ISSA. Well, then, I hope you will pledge to forward us 

a copy if you find it in that last minute dump in anticipation of this 

hearing. 

Mr. GRIFFIN. We will do that, Mr. Chairman. 

Chairman ISSA. Thank you. 

51 

Before I go the ranking member, I do want to thank you for 

being here. Ms. Farrisee, I expect that we will see you in the future. Because it is the intention, I just talked to the chairman of 

Veterans Affairs Committee, it is the intention of both our committees to both continue looking at what is driving backlog down, if 

it starts really going down, and a continued look about the question 

of the VA’s drive to change the culture. 

And Mr. Griffin, I would suggest that you might keep us informed on whether the culture of timely delivery of your requests 

are being met. Because the idea that something arrives just before 

but not in time for you to review it for a full committee hearing 

again begs the question of whether you and Mr. Abe are being 

treated with the respect within your own department that we expect all IGs to be treated with. 

And with that, I recognize the ranking member. 

Mr. CUMMINGS. Thank you very much. 

I think it would be Ms. Farrisee, you can check with your staff, 

will you let us know how long is the handbook? How many pages 

is it? Just give me an approximation. 

Ms. FARRISEE. It is about 40 pages. 

Mr. CUMMINGS. Forty pages, I see. First of all, Mr. Griffin, I 

want to thank you, Inspector Griffin, I want to thank you and your 

staff. I have to tell you, Ms. Farrisee and Mr. Murray, we can do 

better. And I think you would agree with that, don’t you, Inspector 

General? Do you agree? 

Mr. GRIFFIN. I do agree. 

Mr. CUMMINGS. We can do better. I think that it would be legislative malpractice if we stood on this side of the dais and said, 

okay, everything is okay. It is not okay. We are hoping that you 

will take that word back to your agency. We realize you probably 

have a lot of balls up in the air. But I have to tell you, well, first 

of all, as far as conferences are concerned, I can see you are not 

spending as much money. You seem like you have gotten pretty 

good control, it seems that way. But we will see when you submit 

the documents that you will be submitting. 

But we also are concerned about the backlog. And the chairman 

talks about this whole culture, what kind of culture we have there 

at Veterans. We want to make sure that culture is one that believes in efficiency and effectiveness, that believes in making sure 

that the taxpayers’ dollars are spent in a prudent way, and makes 

sure that money is spent to enhance the lives of our veterans. They 

have already given their blood, sweat and tears. We have so many 

families who have lost a loved one. 

So again, we see this as the urgency of now, I have to tell you, 

when we were talking about the handbook, I didn’t feel a sense of 

urgency, although I know we have gotten a draft. Then I asked a 

question about a document that was due October 1st, 2012, and it 

seemed as if, you know, we will get to it when we can. Well, that 

is not good enough. 

So again, I am hoping that you will go back, that you will address these issues with some sense of urgency. With that, Mr. 

Chairman, I yield back. 

52 

Chairman ISSA. I thank the gentleman and I thank all participants today, particularly out witnesses. With that, we stand adjourned. 

[Whereupon, at 11:40 a.m., the committee was adjourned.] 

(53) 

APPENDIX 

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