U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE

31–629 WASHINGTON : 2018

AGRICULTURAL GUESTWORKERS: MEETING THE 

GROWING NEEDS OF AMERICAN AGRICULTURE 

HEARING 

BEFORE THE

SUBCOMMITTEE ON 

IMMIGRATION AND BORDER SECURITY 

OF THE

COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY 

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 

ONE HUNDRED FIFTEENTH CONGRESS 

FIRST SESSION 

JULY 19, 2017 

Serial No. 115–40 

Printed for the use of the Committee on the Judiciary 

( 

Available via the World Wide Web: http://judiciary.house.gov 


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COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY 

BOB GOODLATTE, Virginia, Chairman 

F. JAMES SENSENBRENNER, JR., 

Wisconsin 

LAMAR SMITH, Texas 

STEVE CHABOT, Ohio 

DARRELL E. ISSA, California 

STEVE KING, Iowa 

TRENT FRANKS, Arizona 

LOUIE GOHMERT, Texas 

JIM JORDAN, Ohio 

TED POE, Texas 

JASON CHAFFETZ, Utah 

TOM MARINO, Pennsylvania 

TREY GOWDY, South Carolina 

RAU ́ L LABRADOR, Idaho 

BLAKE FARENTHOLD, Texas 

DOUG COLLINS, Georgia 

RON DESANTIS, Florida 

KEN BUCK, Colorado 

JOHN RATCLIFFE, Texas 

MARTHA ROBY, Alabama 

MATT GAETZ, Florida 

MIKE JOHNSON, Louisiana 

ANDY BIGGS, Arizona 

JOHN CONYERS, JR., Michigan 

JERROLD NADLER, New York 

ZOE LOFGREN, California 

SHEILA JACKSON LEE, Texas 

STEVE COHEN, Tennessee 

HENRY C. ‘‘HANK’’ JOHNSON, JR., Georgia 

THEODORE E. DEUTCH, Florida 

LUIS V. GUTIE ́ RREZ, Illinois 

KAREN BASS, California 

CEDRIC L. RICHMOND, Louisiana 

HAKEEM S. JEFFRIES, New York 

DAVID CICILLINE, Rhode Island 

ERIC SWALWELL, California 

TED LIEU, California 

JAMIE RASKIN, Maryland 

PRAMILA JAYAPAL, Washington 

BRAD SCHNEIDER, Illinois 

SHELLEY HUSBAND, Chief of Staff and General Counsel 

PERRY APELBAUM, Minority Staff Director and Chief Counsel 

SUBCOMMITTEE ON IMMIGRATION AND BORDER SECURITY

JIM SENSENBRENNER, JR., Wisconsin, Chairman 

RAU ́ L R. LABRADOR, Idaho, Vice-Chairman 

LAMAR SMITH, Texas 

STEVE KING, Iowa 

JIM JORDAN, Ohio 

KEN BUCK, Colorado 

MIKE JOHNSON, Louisiana 

ANDY BIGGS, Arizona 

ZOE LOFGREN, California 

LUIS V. GUTIE ́ RREZ, Illinois 

PRAMILA JAYAPAL, Washington 

SHEILA JACKSON LEE, Texas 

DAVID CICILLINE, Rhode Island 


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C O N T E N T S 

JULY 19, 2017 

OPENING STATEMENTS 

Page 

The Honorable Bob Goodlatte, Virginia, Chairman, Committee on the Judiciary ......................................................................................................................... 4 

The Honorable Ken Buck, Colorado, Subcommittee on Immigration and Border Security, Committee on the Judiciary ......................................................... 1 

The Honorable Zoe Lofgren, California, Ranking Member, Subcommittee on 

Immigration and Border Security, Committee on the Judiciary ...................... 3 

WITNESSES 

The Honorable David Valadao, 21st District of California, U.S. House of 

Representatives 

Oral Statement ................................................................................................. 7 

Ms. Sarah Frey, President and CEO, Frey Farms 

Oral Statement ................................................................................................. 8 

Mr. Jon Wyss, Orchard Owner, Gebbers Farms 

Oral Statement ................................................................................................. 10 

Mr. Giev Kashkooli, Vice President, United Farm Workers 

Oral Statement ................................................................................................. 12 


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AGRICULTURAL GUESTWORKERS: MEETING 

THE GROWING NEEDS OF AMERICAN AGRICULTURE 

WEDNESDAY, JULY 19, 2017 

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

SUBCOMMITTEE ON IMMIGRATION AND BORDER SECURITY

COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY

Washington, DC 

The subcommittee met, pursuant to call, at 2:35 p.m., in Room 

2141, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Ken Buck presiding. 

Present: Representatives Buck, Goodlatte, Smith, King, Jordan, 

Johnson, Biggs, Lofgren, Conyers, Gutierrez, and Cicilline. 

Staff Present: George Fishman, Counsel; Tanner Black, Clerk; 

Stephanie Gadbois, Counsel; and David Shahoulian, Minority 

Counsel. 

Mr. BUCK. The Subcommittee on Immigration and Border Security will come to order. Without objection, the chair is authorized 

to declare recesses of the subcommittee at any time. 

We welcome everyone to today’s hearings on agricultural 

guestworkers, Meeting the Growing Needs of American Agriculture. I recognize myself for an opening statement. 

Good afternoon. This hearing is an important opportunity to examine America’s agricultural labor needs and the role of foreign 

workers in this equation, an issue very important to me and the 

people of Colorado. I look forward to Chairman Goodlatte’s introduction of and the committee’s consideration of the Agricultural 

Guestworker Act in the coming weeks. This legislation presents a 

real opportunity for us to enact fundamental agricultural 

guestworker reform for the first time in three decades, reform that 

will benefit American agriculture, the American consumer, and 

hungry people all over the world. 

After all, America is the world’s breadbasket and its corn bushel, 

and its salad bowl, and its potato patch, and its dairy farm. This 

hearing is not about how we handle certain crops. Instead, it is 

about year-round labor-intensive agricultural products or products 

that require additional help at certain times of the year, such as 

harvest. 

Colorado provides a great example of the problem we are examining today. Leprino Foods is the largest manufacturer of mozzarella cheese in the United States and a leading producer of whey 

protein. They have two production facilities in the 4th CongresVerDate Sep 11 2014 02:36 Oct 04, 2018 Jkt 031629 PO 00000 Frm 00005 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 E:\HR\OC\A629.XXX A629

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sional District. When I visited Leprino, I heard stories about how 

they had the capacity and market to increase their production. 

However, Leprino can’t ramp up their business to meet market demand because the local dairies can’t produce more milk. 

I also met with those local dairy farmers. They confirm that recruiting employees continues to be the largest challenge to their 

growing businesses and supplying more dairy products for this 

country. This is the same story I hear as I visit farm after farm 

across my district. Labor is the lifeblood of the agricultural industry. Without the ability to find and retain a reliable workforce, our 

agricultural industry will continue to struggle to meet the market’s 

needs. 

When it comes to labor needs, agricultural labor is in a class by 

itself. There is little debate over whether there enough Americans 

willing to take on the job of a migrant farm worker. In fact, over 

the past several decades, our government has only encouraged 

Americans to abandon such labor, leaving foreign workers to fulfill 

our season agricultural labor needs. 

The Labor Department believes that workers who do have legal 

status appear to be leaving farm jobs because of age or opportunities for more stable and higher paying employment outside of agriculture, and are being replaced almost exclusively by unauthorized 

foreign-born workers. What legal labor force options do growers 

have? Since 1986, the H–2A program has provided visas for temporary agricultural workers. However, over two decades ago, the 

American agriculture industry told this committee that the program was characterized by extensive complex regulations that limit 

employers’ ability to use the program, and by costly litigation challenging its use when admissions of alien workers are sought. They 

allege that the Department of Labor was implacably opposed to the 

program. 

For growers, the H–2A program was intended to ensure the 

availability of sufficient labor for key needs like harvesting. But for 

a program created to dynamically offer labor supply to those farmers and ranchers most in demand, timeliness has never been a 

strong suit. 

Two decades later, little has changed. An apple grower told us 

that were it not for the H–2A guestworker program, broken, costly, 

and perilously litigation-prone as it is, we would be unable to farm 

at all. One of the most frequently cited reasons our region’s farmers go out of business is that they simply cannot continue under 

the burdens of the current H–2A program. 

The H–2A program itself is designed to fail. It is cumbersome 

and full of red tape. Growers have to pay wages far above the local 

prevailing wage, putting them at a competitive disadvantage 

against growers who use illegal labor. Employers must also follow 

onerous regulations, like the 50 percent rule, which requires them 

to hire any domestic workers who show up, even after the employer 

has recruited for U.S. workers and welcomed his or her H–2A 

workers from overseas. 

In short, under H–2A, growers can’t get workers when they need 

them. Bureaucrats decide if employers have a full workforce, not 

the weather or crop conditions. Moreover, employers constantly 

face frivolous litigation by those who don’t think the H–2A program 


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should even exist. What growers need is a fair and functional 

guestworker program, one that gives them access to the workers 

they need when they need them at a fair wage and with reasonable 

mandates. Growers need a partner agency in the Federal Government that treats them as allies, not as adversaries. 

I look forward to hearing from today’s witnesses. We will hear 

from a Member of the House of Representatives, Congressman 

David Valadao, who represents one of the largest agricultural districts in our country. We will hear from our growers who do the 

right thing and utilize the H–2A program. We will hear from an 

advocate for farm workers, who believes that the program harms 

both American workers and the guestworkers themselves. 

It is now my pleasure to recognize the ranking member of the 

Subcommittee on Immigration and Border Security, Ms. Lofgren of 

California, for her opening statement. 

Ms. LOFGREN. Thank you, Chairman Goodlatte, and we hope that 

Chairman Labrador is well. And thank you, Mr. Buck, for chairing 

this hearing. 

As we know from many hearings we have held on this issue over 

the last two decades, nowhere is evidence of our broken immigration system more glaring and acute than in the agricultural sector, 

where a critical half if not more of the workforce is undocumented. 

We can’t begin to fix our immigration system without finding a solution for our agricultural sector; I am sure on that we agree. I expect that both chairmen are committed to finding such a solution. 

But whatever we do, I am afraid we won’t have a lasting solution 

unless it is bipartisan and fairly balanced—balances the needs of 

employers as well as workers. 

Let’s look at the facts. As we know from past hearings, mechanized crops, like corn, wheat, and soy, aren’t the real problem. The 

challenge is with seasonal labor-intensive fruit and vegetable production as well as year-round dairy and livestock. These areas require a migrant flexible and experienced workforce. 

Now while farmers do their best to plan harvests, expected 

changes in humidity or temperature can suddenly move a harvest 

up, giving growers just days to pick valuable crops. Failure to find 

experienced workers or any workers at all can lead to significant 

losses. These losses can ripple through our economy. Agriculture 

continues to be a major sector of our economy and a primary U.S. 

export. We export so many agricultural products, so many more 

than we import that the sector is regularly the largest cause of our 

trade surplus. 

Yet, Congress has long ignored the labor needs of this sector. For 

decades, our country has, in fact, pushed to educate our children 

for work in other areas. At the same time, our immigration laws 

have not been updated to fill the void. For example, despite the 

growing demand for workers, some on a permanent basis, our immigration laws provide only 5,000 green cards per year to people 

without bachelor’s degrees. That is 5,000 per year, not just for agriculture, but landscaping, forestry, hospitality, nannies, and the 

many other areas where immigrants fill crucial needs. And until 

recently, the H–2A temporary worker program wasn’t widely used. 

Farmers often complained to me that the program was too bureaucratic and slow, that the H–2A workers were known to someVerDate Sep 11 2014 02:36 Oct 04, 2018 Jkt 031629 PO 00000 Frm 00007 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A629.XXX A629

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times arrive weeks after they were first needed. Many growers felt 

they could not make the program work, and the program was used 

sparingly in some parts of the country for years. 

In that environment, should anyone be surprised that market 

forces worked their magic to pair up willing employers and willing 

workers. A recent Department of Labor survey indicates that at 

least half of America’s farm workers are undocumented. The vast 

majority of these workers have been here for a very long time. 

Most of them have been here for at least 15 years, and some 93 

percent have been here for more than 5 years. These workers came 

to fill critical needs, and many of our constituents are still in business because those workers came. There is no acceptable solution 

that fails to deal with this reality. 

Given congressional inaction, use of the H–2A program has risen 

sharply in recent years. Last year, some 165,000 H–2A visas were 

issued, making it a 160-percent increase in the use of the program 

in 10 years’ time. But this program cannot meet our labor needs 

on its own. We have to find the courage to do what is right, to provide a seat at America’s table for those who have long grown the 

food we serve on it. 

The question before Congress is simple: Do we recognize that we 

have an experienced workforce that has been a critical economic 

part of the country for years, and provide a rational way for them 

to obtain permanent legal status to help this country succeed, or 

do we, as some have previously suggested, attempt to throw out 

millions of agricultural workers, just to force our growers to import 

millions of other workers through exploited programs that will 

harm U.S. workers and foreign workers alike. 

I hope that we can all agree that the viable solution is a balanced approach that both preserves the current workforce and provides a reasonable path for new workers. If we learned anything 

from our many hearings on this subject, it is that a one-sided solution won’t work. There are times when we understood that. Years 

ago, growers and farm workers came together to craft the AgJOBS 

compromise; and they came together again in 2013 to support reforms in S. 744, the bipartisan bill that passed the Senate by a 

wide margin. 

It is worth noting that every farm organization, every farmers 

group in the United States and the United Farm Workers agreed 

on the elements in that bill. It was supported by business and labor 

and had strong support from many Members on both sides of the 

aisle. 

Unfortunately, that bill never got a vote in the House. But that 

bill shows that all sides can reach a balanced bipartisan agreement 

when we work together for a common purpose. I think we can do 

that again. I stand ready to be part of that process, and I thank 

the chairman again for holding this hearing and I yield back the 

balance of my time. 

Mr. BUCK. Thank you, Ms. Lofgren. It is now my pleasure to recognize the chairman of the Judiciary Committee, Mr. Goodlatte of 

Virginia, for his opening statement. 

Chairman GOODLATTE. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. As former 

chairman of the House Agriculture Committee, I have had the opportunity to learn firsthand what farmers face in dealing with the 


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H–2A program. It is a costly, time-consuming, and flawed program. 

Each year employers have to comply with a lengthy labor certification process that is slow, bureaucratic, and frustrating. They 

must expend a great deal of time and money each season in order 

to prove to the Federal Government what nearly everybody already 

knows to be the case: Legal, dependable domestic farm labor is 

very hard to find. 

In addition, the program forces them to pay an artificially inflated wage rate. These growers must pay an average of over $13 

an hour in some States and still cannot find enough Americans 

willing to take the jobs. Further, they must provide free housing 

and daily transportation. H–2A farms almost always find themselves at a competitive disadvantage in the marketplace. Agricultural employers who participate in the H–2A program do so as a 

matter of last resort and because they want to uphold the rule of 

law. 

A guestworker program should help farmers who are willing to 

pay a fair wage for law-abiding dependable workers, not punish 

them. For this reason, I have long supported replacing the H–2A 

program with a workable guestworker program. Instead of encouraging more illegal immigration, successful guestworker reform can 

deter illegal immigration and help secure our borders. 

We should enable the large population of illegal farm workers to 

participate legally in American agriculture. Those eligible will provide a stable legal agricultural workforce that employers can call 

upon when sufficient American labor cannot be found. 

In addition, a successful guestworker program will provide a 

legal workable avenue for guestworkers who are trying to provide 

a better life for their families. 

It is well past the time to replace the outdated and onerous H– 

2A program, to support those farmers who have demonstrated that 

they will endure substantial burdens and bureaucratic red tape 

just to employ a fully legal workforce, and to offer a program that 

is amenable to even more participants in today’s agricultural economy. 

In the 113th Congress, I introduced, and the committee reported, 

the AG Act. This bill would replace the H–2A program with a new 

program that provides growers with streamlined access to 

guestworkers and enables dairies and food processors to participate. 

The bill would assure a reliable workforce by creating a program 

that is market-driven and adaptable. It would reduce red tape by 

adopting an attestation-based petition process. It would, subject to 

certain conditions, allow guestworkers to be employed at will, making it easier for workers to move freely throughout the agricultural 

marketplace to meet demand. It would protect program users from 

abusive lawsuits. 

The bill will not recreate the pitfalls of the H–2A program. It will 

not require growers to hire and train unneeded workers after they 

have engaged in domestic recruitment and their guestworkers have 

arrived, provide free housing and transportation, or pay an unrealistic or uncompetitive wage rate dreamt up by Labor Department 

bureaucrats. 


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The new program would be, at its core, a true guestworker program. It does not create any special pathway to permanent legal 

status. The bill simply allows agricultural employers to hire, under 

the guestworker program, aliens who had been unlawfully present, 

just as they can hire any other foreign national. They would be required to abide by the same conditions as other guestworkers, including leaving the U.S. periodically, to ensure that they retain ties 

to their home countries. 

I have been in discussions with the agricultural community ever 

since the committee reported the AG Act over 4 years ago. The bill 

that I will shortly reintroduce makes a good faith attempt to take 

into account their comments and concerns. We cannot squander the 

golden opportunity we have this Congress to enact meaningful agricultural guestworker reform. 

I am pleased to welcome all of our witnesses here today. I thank 

the chair for holding this important hearing, and I want to thank 

in advance all of our witnesses for sharing their insights with us 

today. 

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. BUCK. Thank you, Mr. Goodlatte. 

We have a very distinguished panel today, and I will begin by 

swearing in our witnesses before introducing them. If you would all 

please rise. 

Do you swear that the testimony you are about to give before 

this committee is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the 

truth, so help you God? 

Let the record reflect that all the witnesses responded in the affirmative. Please be seated. 

I will now introduce the witnesses and then call on them for 

their opening statements. 

Congressman David Valadao was born and raised in agriculturally rich Hanford, California. As a lifelong resident of California’s 

Central Valley, he has been active in agriculture, on dairy industry 

groups as well as many local causes, including Children’s Hospital 

of Central California, 4–H, Future Farmers of America, and various Catholic charities. 

In 2012, Mr. Valadao was elected to represent California’s 21st 

Congressional District, which includes Kings County and portions 

of Fresno, Kern and Tulare Counties. In November 2016, he was 

elected to serve a third term. Representative Valadao serves on the 

Appropriations Committee, including on the Subcommittees on Agriculture, Military Construction and Veterans Affairs, and Transportation Housing and Urban Development. Welcome, Mr. Valadao. 

Ms. Frey is the founder and CEO of Frey Farms. Today, she and 

her four brothers and their dedicated team of employees operate 

farms and agricultural facilities in Florida, Georgia, Missouri, Arkansas, Illinois, Indiana, and West Virginia. Their multi-State operation specializes in growing, packing, and shipping of fresh market produce, including watermelons, cantaloupes, sweet corn, fall 

ornamentals, and hard squash. And Frey Farms is one of the Nation’s largest pumpkin shippers. Frey Farms has been using the H– 

2A program since 2002. Welcome. 

Mr. Wyss was born in Thermopolis, Wyoming, and married his 

wife Melanie in 2003. Prior to joining his wife’s family company, 


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Gebbers Farms, as an analyst and government affairs director, he 

served as the chief deputy assessor for Spokane County, worked for 

various U.S. Bankruptcy Trustee offices, and temporarily served as 

a Washington State Senator. 

Mr. Wyss also serves on the U.S. Apple Board of Directors, 

American Farm Bureau Labor Committee, and is the vice president 

of USA Farmers. He attended Texas Tech University and Lubbock 

Christian University in Lubbock, Texas. He has two daughters and 

one son. Welcome. 

Mr. Kashkooli is the vice president of the United Farm Workers 

of America, overseeing the union’s political, legislative, and communications work. He has worked for the UFW for 20 years in California, New York, Washington, D.C., and Florida. He graduated 

from Brown University in Rhode Island in 1994, where he first became an active supporter of the United Farm Workers cause. 

Mr. Kashkooli has managed dozens of political races for the 

UFW, including the election of county, State, and national candidates. He continues to play a key role in UFW’s immigration reform efforts. 

Each of the witnesses’ written statements will be entered into 

the record in its entirety. I ask that each witness summarize his 

or her testimony in 5 minutes or less. To help you stay within that 

time limit, there is a timing light in front of you. The light will 

switch from green to yellow, indicating that you have 1 minute to 

conclude your testimony. When the light turns red, it indicates that 

the witness’ 5 minutes have expired. 

I will now recognize Mr. Valadao for his opening statement. 

TESTIMONY OF THE HON. DAVID VALADAO, A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA 

Mr. VALADAO. Good morning, Chairman Buck, Ranking Member 

Lofgren, and members of the subcommittee. I appreciate the invitation to testify before you today during today’s hearing, examining 

the labor needs of the agriculture industry throughout the United 

States. 

As the son of immigrants, immigration is an issue close to my 

heart. As a Representative of California’s 21st Congressional District and a dairy farmer myself, I understand the critical role immigrants play in California’s agriculture industry. The success of our 

agriculture industry depends on immigrants, and without them the 

industry’s economic viability and our rural communities will greatly suffer. I am hopeful that the work done in this subcommittee 

today will further our efforts to successfully update our Nation’s 

immigration policies. 

As you know, farming in California is extremely labor-intensive. 

Many immigrants come to this country to fill farm worker positions 

and do the hard work necessary to care for livestock and harvest 

produce in a timely manner. Their strenuous work makes it possible for families across America to put food on their tables. However, our agriculture industry faces a serious shortage of immigrant agriculture workers, and the truth is most Americans are unwilling to fill these positions. 

The shortcomings of the H–2A program have exacerbated this 

shortage. A major issue facing California’s farmers and ranchers is 


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the program’s inability to meet the needs of year-round farmers, including dairy and livestock farms and ag operations with multiple 

crops and harvests. We must repair the system, both for the current workforce and in order to ensure our agriculture communities 

have access to the workers they desperately need for the years to 

come. 

Hardworking immigrant farm workers are not only the backbone 

of our agriculture industry, but they and their families are the 

heart and soul of many rural communities. However, it is an unfortunate reality that the policies implemented by the previous administrations did little to improve our immigration system. Instead, executive orders and regulations trapped many workers on 

this side of the border, preventing them from returning to their 

families back into their home country and imposing unfair ultimatums on those who contribute so much to our economy. 

Further, we must reform the system to provide both employer 

and employee choice and flexibility. This can be achieved by ensuring employees have the freedom to move from employer to employer without contractual commitment. In doing so, we can ensure 

our farmers and ranchers have access to the workforce they depend 

on. Without the hard work of skilled immigrants, California’s agriculture industry faces serious consequences and risks inflicting consumers with high prices and decreasing our food security as a Nation. 

Reforming our immigration system, especially as it relates to our 

current and future workforce, is a complex undertaking and requires a comprehensive approach. For too long, extremes on either 

side of the aisle have discouraged real and meaningful discussion 

on immigration reform. However, this subcommittee’s commitment 

to addressing the agriculture industry’s labor crisis does not go unnoticed. 

I am hopeful that the work done by this committee will ultimately culminate in the implementation of a fair and balanced immigration policies that ensure an adequate immigrant workforce 

while continuing to combat illegal immigration. 

Again, thank you for the opportunity to testify today. I look forward to working with the committee, the Congress, and the administration, to craft a bipartisan solution to immigration reform that 

ensures our Nation’s safety and protects our agriculture communities and the economy. 

Mr. BUCK. Thank you, Mr. Valadao. 

The chair now recognizes Ms. Frey. 

TESTIMONY OF SARAH FREY, PRESIDENT AND CEO, FREY 

FARMS; JON WYSS, ORCHARD OWNER, GEBBERS FARMS; 

AND GIEV KASHKOOLI, VICE PRESIDENT, UNITED FARM 

WORKERS 

TESTIMONY OF SARAH FREY 

Ms. FREY. Good afternoon. Thank you, Chairman Buck, and all 

the members of the subcommittee for the opportunity to be here 

today and to share my thoughts and experiences with all of you in 

respect to the H–2A program and the need for an expanded ag 

workforce. 


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First, a bit about myself and my farms. My name is Sarah Frey 

and I am the CEO of Frey Farms, headquartered in southern Illinois. We specialize in the multi-State growing, packing, and shipping of fresh fruits and vegetables. We are best known as the Nation’s largest pumpkin farm. However, pumpkins are actually a 

small part of what we produce. We actually grow millions of watermelons. Our farms and facilities are located in Florida, Georgia, Illinois, Indiana, Arkansas, Missouri, and in West Virginia. 

Frey Farms is actively engaged with policymakers on a variety 

of issues, and we are especially thankful for this opportunity to 

share our perspective on the H–2A guestworker program that we 

have relied on for 15 years. 

American consumers demand locally sourced fruits and vegetables when in season. Expanding our farming operations and bringing quality local fresh fruits and vegetables to the Nation’s top 25 

grocery retail chains would not have been possible without a reliable workforce. While expensive and laden with bureaucratic inefficiencies, the H–2A guestworker program has been the only practical solution for our company. Our farms continue to face challenges like most farms. Ours are in rural areas and rural communities, far away from larger labor pools needed to fill the jobs that 

are required and necessary for harvesting specialty crops. 

Many of the specialty crops grown in the United States have harvest windows as short as just a few weeks, due to the geographic 

location and general regional climates associated with the farmland. Relocating a domestic family every few weeks is logistically 

unfeasible. Therefore, lack of access to domestic labor, combined 

with an overburdened Federal guestworker program, means that 

fruit and vegetable providers are in a daily struggle to secure an 

adequate workforce. 

The reality is this: Much of the Nation’s foreign-born farm workers do not have proper work authorization, and the emphasis on 

enforcement without an accompanying effective legal ag 

guestworker program puts our industry and our Nation’s ability to 

sustainably and affordably feed our people in jeopardy. 

I want to be clear. We support strengthening our Nation’s ability 

to uphold the law. We want our employees to be legally authorized 

to work in this country, and that is why Frey Farms and the 

produce industry have long advocated for reforms to our Nation’s 

immigration system to deal with this issue. We believe those who 

are working in agriculture without the proper documentation 

should be able to make their presence known and join a 

guestworker program. When their seasonal harvest work is finished, these workers could return to their home country, as the 

current H–2A program requires them. Transportation could and 

would be provided by their American employer. 

Moreover, the legality of these immigrant employees would no 

longer be in question, and regulations for the proper execution of 

the law would be in place. These workers would then be allowed 

to return under the lawful rules of a new guestworker program, 

and the American farmer could operate without the stress and anxiety of wondering where their next group of employees will come 

from. 


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The foundation is in place to help ag bridge the gap between its 

current supply and the vastly disparate demand for labor. We urge 

you to do what it takes to ensure that whatever immigration legislation Congress debates does not become final without a mechanism for addressing ag’s real and urgent labor needs. Failure to address these needs will undermine all the good work Congress has 

done in legislation, like the farm bill and its support for specialty 

crops. 

The very essence of agriculture is growing healthy nutritious 

food. It all depends on congressional action now to make the necessary reforms to a guestworker program or overhaul and create a 

new guestworker program. 

I thank you on behalf of Frey Farms and the ag community for 

the continued work and service that you dedicate to our livelihoods. 

With that, Mr. Chairman, I am happy to take questions. 

Mr. BUCK. Thank you, Ms. Frey. 

The next witness, Mr. Wyss, you are recognized for 5 minutes. 

TESTIMONY OF JON WYSS 

Mr. WYSS. Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, thank 

you for having us today and for this opportunity. 

Gebbers Farms is a family-run and operated farm that is been 

in Okanogan County in Brewster for over a century. We raise thousands of acres of apples and cherries along the Columbia River, but 

we also have cattle and timber, and manage the thousands of acres 

of that timber. 

Growing up in rural Wyoming, I watched the temporary labor 

force come and go in the sugar beet harvest. And that whole time 

growing up, I wondered why these immigrants were here taking 

American jobs that Americans would do. I would hold this belief 

until 20 years later, when I moved to the State of Washington and 

met my now wife. Our dating relationship nearly ended over our 

differing views on immigration. But to help me understand the immigration and the programs and the need for seasonal workers, we 

went to her cherry farm. 

The drive ended in the orchard with an immigrant worker meeting us and handing me a ladder and a bucket, and the goal was 

to start at one end each and meet in the middle. It wasn’t close. 

In that short timeframe, I learned that my 20 years of beliefs needed to change. 

Without an available domestic labor supply, we entered the H– 

2A program in 2010. We quickly discovered that it is not easy to 

operate in 2010 like you do in 1950, in the fifties, when the program was designed by Dwight Eisenhower. Agriculture’s production 

today is nothing like 1950. 1986 update did not fix the program. 

So we are asking you to update the current H–2A program to 

something that is functional and workable. 

Due to the nature of our crops, we have to apply for four separate contracts. That means filing those four contracts with four different agencies and four opportunities for delay. Our first year in 

H–2A, we hired 300 workers from Jamaica and 750 from Mexico, 

and we continue to increase the number of workers each year, even 

though wages continue to climb. Fortunately, because we pack all 

of our own fruit, we are able to use H–2A in our packing house and 


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supplement the continued loss of domestic labor. Other growers 

aren’t so fortunate and don’t have access to the H–2A program, and 

Congress should allow more flexibility for other employers to join. 

Once our H–2A workers arrive, they are paid the governmentmandated Adverse Effect Wage Rate. In Washington State, it is 

$13.38 per hour, one of the highest in the country. The prior administration changed the rates at will with little or no advance notice, which caused significant challenges to our payroll, forcing us 

to reprint all contracts and updating the wage and hour posters at 

a significant expense. 

Some would say, well, if you would just pay more, you would get 

more workers. But I would point out that we are already paying 

over $13 an hour, and the local retailers and other businesses in 

our community are paying minimum wage of $11 an hour. So if it 

were about wages, I would ask, why are people taking the other 

local seasonal jobs than those at the farm, where we also provide 

housing and transportation. 

In 2014 and 2015, our county suffered back-to-back massive wild 

fires, burning nearly a million acres, of which a majority was 

timberlands. First, there were two critical impacts that impacted 

our labor supply. First, the fires substantially increased the need 

for seasonal labor for reforesters and increased the need on the 

public and private sector lands. Our own personal timberlands, we 

have to replant over 8,000 acres. However, that requires an H–2B 

visa. The Department of Agriculture oversees forestry, so it would 

make sense that reforestation would fall within the Department of 

Agriculture. 

Second, the fires took an additional toll on our agriculture workers, because they shifted from farm work to reconstructing the 300 

homes that had to be rebuilt within the area. We live in a community of 2,100, and our county is 5,000 square miles, but only has 

41,000 total people. So you can see the transfer that has occurred. 

The H–2A program does provide a legal stable program for workers to come to our farm, but the program is not reliable and has 

been plagued with inefficiencies and delays by DOL and others. For 

example, the entire visa system was down at the State Department 

2 years ago. That caused a backup of thousands of workers who 

couldn’t get their visas, and the employers were left in some cases 

without workers for weeks. In our industry, we pick, pack, and ship 

every cherry we have in 45 days. A delay of weeks would have 

made us miss our entire packing and harvesting season. 

It is important to note, though, that our community has rallied 

around these H–2A workers and they have actually become part of 

our community. Each August, our Jamaican H–2A workers celebrate the Jamaican Independence Day at one of our labor camps. 

The workers prepare authentic Jamaican food, play music, and 

host a soccer tournament. The event is open to the public and 

serves as an annual fundraiser to support charities back in the 

home country of Jamaica. 

Our local sheriff told me before I came out, I remember the days 

when we used to come to the labor camps a couple times a week 

and we were picking people up. Now our off-duty officers are coming to your labor camp to pick workers up to go to church. There 


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is a significant difference that has occurred, a change that is occurred as our workforce has changed. 

I leave you with this thought: Washington agriculture produces 

300 commodities, at a value of $68 billion, and produces 200,000 

jobs. That is larger than Boeing, $15.1 billion of that value is commodities that are exported out of the State of Washington and the 

ports, which makes us truly the refrigerator to the world. Without 

access to a legal stable supply of labor through some type of worker 

program, 12 percent of the Washington State economy is at risk. 

I look forward to working with this committee, the rest of Congress, and the administration, to move forward with a permanent 

solution on this issue. And we are here for each of you to be a resource and answer questions as we go along the way. Thank you. 

Mr. BUCK. Thank you, Mr. Wyss. 

Mr. Kashkooli, you are now recognized for 5 minutes. 

TESTIMONY OF GIEV KASHKOOLI 

Mr. KASHKOOLI. Thank you. Thank you, Chairman Goodlatte and 

Ranking Member of Judiciary Conyers. 

The CHAIRMAN. Is your button on? 

Mr. KASHKOOLI. Thank you. Thank you, Chairman Goodlatte and 

Ranking Member of Judiciary Conyers, Acting Chair Buck, Ranking Member Lofgren. 

My name is Giev Kashkooli, and I am a vice president with 

United Farm Workers, the Nation’s first and largest farm worker 

union. We work with farm worker organizations in close to 20 different States on the issue of immigration. 

A growing problem in American agriculture is the difficulty in 

matching willing workers in the United States with agricultural 

employers trying to hire people so that we can continue to feed the 

United States. 

I was really moved by the Acting Chair Buck’s words when he 

said that labor is the lifeblood of the agricultural industry, the lifeblood of the agricultural industry. And while Mr. Wyss and Ms. 

Frey and I have been working on this issue to change immigration 

for over 10 years now, each of us, I don’t think any American has 

stopped eating over the last decade while we haven’t finished fixing 

immigration. The issue has not been—although we disagree on 

many things, we have been able many times under different administrations to come together on an agreement. 

The issue is matching willing workers to willing employers. 

Again, because we are talking about the lifeblood, this is tough 

work. The watermelons harvested on Ms. Frey’s farm, those are 3- 

to 4-pound watermelons that are picked by crews of workers who 

literally pick tons of watermelons in a day’s work, over and over 

again. 

To do the cherries, right, close to the border of Canada, it gets 

to freezing temperatures in the winter with the folks doing that 

work. By the summer, it can get deadly hot, and I mean literally 

deadly. Dozens of farm workers around the United States have 

died from the basic lack of water and shade that farmers that are 

not playing by the rules like Mr. Wyss and Ms. Frey apparently 

are. 


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Because we are talking about human beings, that is why we go 

through four agencies. We are talking about people coming into the 

United States from a different country. We are talking about making sure that U.S. citizens and legal permanent residents have a 

chance to get the job. Close to half of the workforce does have U.S. 

citizenship or legal permanent residence. And for those U.S. citizens who are willing to take on the work who maybe are outside 

of it, that is why that 50 percent rule is in place. If someone is willing to come and pick the crops and they are a U.S. citizen and legal 

permanent resident, they should have access and be able to get 

that job so that we eat. 

The reason it is free housing is because, as Ms. Frey described, 

the jobs sometimes are 2 to 4 weeks. I don’t know too many people 

who are prepared to rent an apartment, first and last month’s rent, 

for just 2 to 4 weeks. That is why free housing is important. The 

reason that housing needs to be inspected and not just attestation 

is because just a couple months ago, in Arizona a farmer tried to 

house people in converted school buses, 100-degree heat, no ventilation, converted school buses, and expected people to cook their 

meals in those converted buses. 

The reason there is litigation is because a farmer, an administrative law judge found in California a farmer was discriminating 

against U.S. citizens applying to work as workers, was insisting 

that those same workers give kickbacks in order to work off of their 

meager dealings and a whole other host of issues. That is why that 

rule is in place. 

The Adverse Effect Wage Rate, although it has a complicated 

name—and that is the wage rate that is required under the H–2A 

program—is actually not that complicated. It is the average wage 

rate, and it is determined by a survey that the government does 

with current agricultural employers to determine the average. And, 

as any math teacher will remind us, the way the average works is 

if you pay somebody less than the average, then your group average is going to go down. So the reason you have an average wage 

rate is to make sure that the U.S. workers and legal permanent 

residents, their wages don’t go down. 

There are some facts that we all agree on. The current H-2A program has no cap. The program has doubled since 2012, as Ms. 

Frey’s diagram shows, and tripled in the last decade. It is up 30 

percent over the last year. And the Department of Labor—this one 

we may agree with, but it is a fact the Department of Labor has 

a timely approval rate of 98 percent over the last year. 

Fortunately, there is a positive workable solution. The first step 

should be to honor the people who are the lifeblood, as Chairman 

Buck said, of our system. Allow farm workers, professional farm 

workers who have worked 100 days in the previous 2 years to earn 

legal status. Congressman Gutie ́rrez has a bill that does that, H.R. 

2690, and there is over 50 cosponsors. Thank you. 

Mr. BIGGS. [Presiding.] And now I turn it over to the chairman 

of the Judiciary Committee, Mr. Goodlatte. 

Chairman GOODLATTE. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Let me address my first question to Mr. Wyss and Ms. Frey. Isn’t 

one lesson that we learned from the 1986 legalization of illegal immigrant farm workers, when they receive permanent residence 


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they leave the fields for more attractive jobs in the cities? In fact, 

Philip Martin, professor of agricultural economics at the University 

of California at Davis, found that by 1997-1998, the percentage of 

crop workers who had been granted permanent residence through 

the 1986 act had fallen to only 16 percent. 

Isn’t it the case that if Congress were to again grant a special 

pathway to citizenship to illegal immigrant farm workers that 

growers would soon be left in the lurch? Mr. Wyss. 

Mr. WYSS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Congressman Goodlatte. I 

can only speak for our farm and what happened with us after 1986. 

We did go through the legalization program and did have a considerable number of our workers adhere to that and receive their citizenship. Many of them became actual business partners with some 

of the members of the family and now own their own orchards. And 

so they have moved off the farm, but they have become orchard 

owners on their own. 

We did see a shift after a few years of the workforce 

transitioning into other jobs, you know, in the hotel, restaurant industry, construction. The area in which we live, the labor pool is 

small and they had already lived there, so they didn’t actually 

leave the area, but some of them did take other jobs. But, like I 

say, I can go through the list. Frankel Lucas, he now became a citizen through that program—— 

Chairman GOODLATTE. You don’t need to. I turn to Ms. Frey. I 

have got a couple other questions and I have a limited amount of 

time. 

Ms. FREY. So your question—could you repeat the question? 

Chairman GOODLATTE. The question basically is, if we were to 

have an amnesty program like we had in 1986, my understanding 

from the American Farm Bureau is that about a million people who 

worked in agriculture were given legal status, and about half of 

them left farm work because they could work anywhere. They could 

drive a cab. They could own their own business, as Mr. Wyss suggested. And it didn’t solve the problem. In fact, I would argue that 

it enhanced the problem of illegal immigration. 

Ms. FREY. Well, I think that it is pretty common knowledge we 

all want a better life for our children, and even those who came 

here illegally and worked in agriculture. Yes, it is true, people do 

leave ag once they have worked here, because they do want a better and different life for their kids. 

So it is an unfortunate thing from this side of the table when we 

need an expanded ag workforce, and that is why I think broadening or expanding a guestworker program is really our solution, 

because it is going to be very difficult to keep people working in 

agriculture long term. 

Chairman GOODLATTE. Thank you. As someone farming in multiple States, what have you been observing regionally as far as the 

growing use of the H–2A program? 

Ms. FREY. I found at Frey Farms, we used to be in the minority. 

We are headquartered in southern Illinois. I didn’t start the company in a border State. I started the company in the Midwest. And 

most of the fruits and vegetables we produce, the biggest volume, 

the largest volume comes out of the heartland. 


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And what we—you know, throughout the years, we didn’t have 

access to an urban population of ag farm workers, so we had to 

participate in the H-2A program. It was out of necessity when I 

was first building the company. Today, though, we are seeing those 

numbers increase with employers. 

As workers are leaving agriculture, more ag employers are looking to and for reliable guestworker solutions, because people are 

leaving ag. Workers are leaving ag. And so we have—you know, we 

have noticed that throughout the years, where we used to be in the 

minority, we are no longer. And even States like California, many 

growers out there provide or request hundreds if not thousands of 

H–2A visas, because there simply isn’t enough labor to fill their positions. 

Chairman GOODLATTE. So you think the solution is to improve 

the guestworker program? 

Ms. FREY. Absolutely. Absolutely. Especially—our company, our 

business, our farms are different, because, like I said, we are not 

located in border States. We don’t have access to the populations 

of ag workers, such as the State of California or Arizona. You are 

talking about Illinois, Indiana, Arkansas, Missouri, Iowa. We simply don’t have access to the amount of workers needed in these 

rural areas in such a short amount of time. 

Now, if we were offering—if we were able to offer year-round employment, that would be very different and we would be able to fill 

those positions, I believe, with American workers. But it is simply 

not the case, because we are growing these crops in rural areas 

where we simply don’t have the population to be able to support 

the number of harvest jobs needed for such short seasonal time 

windows. 

Chairman GOODLATTE. Thank you. 

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. BIGGS. Thank you. I now turn the time over to the ranking 

member of the subcommittee, the gentlelady from California, Ms. 

Lofgren. 

Ms. LOFGREN. Thank you very much. I think it is important to 

separate out what used to be and what is, in terms of looking forward. It used to be—and we had hearings on this. We had a lot 

of complaints, that the H–2A program was always late. I think a 

majority of the workers arrived after the harvest was to be collected. That is no longer the case. In the last 2 years, more than 

95 percent of the applications have been approved. Ninety-eight 

percent of them were on time. So that is been a transformation of 

that program, and we ought to proceed with that understanding. 

I just listened carefully to the testimony, and, Ms. Frey, you suggested that the current undocumented workers step forward, become H–2A workers and go back to their country, if I heard you 

right. And I think we really need to make a separation between 

what we do with the individuals who have been here and what we 

are going to do proactively for an additional workforce, because 55 

percent of the farm workers who are undocumented here have been 

here more than 15 years. More than half of them have children 

who are U.S. citizens. 

So the idea that people who have been here 15 years or 20 years, 

have U.S. citizen children, they have grandchildren, that they are 


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going to step forward and go to some foreign country, you know, 

it is just not going to happen. And so we are not solving the problem. And then we need to think about how are we going to preserve 

or craft a program that works and that—for our future flow of farm 

workers. So I think the two solutions are not the same, if I may. 

I am interested also in not just timeliness, but how the H–2A 

program works and doesn’t work. It is my understanding that just 

yesterday, there was an amendment in the appropriations bill to 

allow the H–2A program to be used to fill permanent positions. 

And I am wondering, Mr. Kashkooli, what do you think that 

would do to labor market stability in the current ag worker system, 

that amendment? 

Mr. KASHKOOLI. We were stunned to learn that yesterday’s Appropriations Committee chose to legislate on an issue of jurisdiction 

here, so that year-round workers would be allowed to apply to this 

H–2A program. It was really a surprise. Again, Ms. Frey and Mr. 

Wyss spoke eloquently. 

Ms. Frey spoke about the need on seasonal work. What yesterday’s action did speaks to year-round work in a single location, like 

a dairy. And the dairy industry is a place—in any other year-round 

operation, you are competing in the free market for workers. The 

dairy industry is an industry where literally dozens of workers 

have died every year, some in the most gruesome ways: A gentleman named Randy Vasquez in Washington State just 2 years 

ago, and then just last year a gentleman named Roberto Vasquez, 

the same last name, not related, but same fate, died drowning and 

suffocating in a manure pool. That company where he worked was 

fined $5,000 for lacking some basic protections on a safeguard that 

every dairy operation knows that these manure pools exist. 

So the notion that the H–2A program would be legislated yesterday in an Appropriations Committee for workers who are working 

year-round was stunning to us. We think it more appropriate that 

the Agricultural Worker Program Act, offered by Congressman 

Gutie ́rrez, H.R. 2690. This would take the current professional 

workforce who have worked in agriculture for over 100 days, and 

then if they continue to work in agriculture over the next 5 years 

100 days a year, then they would be able to get—apply for permanent legal status. 

That creates an incentive for that group of people to stay in agriculture. I think Congressman Goodlatte overstated the issue about 

workers leaving in 1986. More reliable data suggests only 1.9 percent of the workforce left annually over a 20-year period. That said, 

the Agricultural Worker Program Act, by having people be able to 

earn legalization would be able to move into jobs that are yearround work and they would have the skills to do it. 

Ms. LOFGREN. As a matter of fact, if the Department of Labor 

survey is accurate and I assume it is, it is actually less percentage 

than I had been saying over the years. It is a little over 50 percent 

that are undocumented. But half the farm workers are documented 

or Americans. So certainly that is a factor to weigh in. 

Mr. KASHKOOLI. In truth, I think it is a little difficult to know 

just exactly how many people have legal status or not. But what 

we know is that it is probably around half that have citizenship or 

legal permanent residence. 


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Ms. LOFGREN. My time has expired, so I yield back, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. BIGGS. Thank you. I recognize Mr. King from Iowa. 

Mr. KING. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

And I thank the witnesses for your testimony. I am sitting here 

thinking about the bigger picture, and it occurs to me that each of 

the witnesses have a sliver of this American economy to testify to, 

and that is the scope of your experience and your business. And yet 

this Congress has the responsibility to look at the entire 360-degree 

scope of the destiny of the United States of America. 

And so how do these pieces of this jigsaw puzzle fit into the overall picture and what works out best for the future of our country? 

And it starts me thinking about some numbers that I haven’t heard 

here. One of them is this number, 95,102,000. That is the number 

of Americans who are of working age not in the workforce. And 

there is another number, 7 million. That is the unemployed Americans. So that is 102 million Americans of working age not in the 

workforce. Then I have some couple of months ago asked my staff, 

carve that number down for me, because there will be some people 

in that that are disabled and others that have other obligations 

that aren’t able to work. 

So what if we were mobilizing America on, say, a World War II 

status, where we put everybody to work that we could because we 

needed to do everything possible simultaneously. We had an unemployment rate then of 1.02 percent, by the way. 

But if you carve that number down of 102 million, it still gets 

down to about 82 million people there that aren’t contributing to 

the GDP from the production side of this scale. And so it starts me 

thinking about how this works in a country if we are bringing people into America to do work that—nobody has quite said it here— 

that some say Americans won’t do. And, of course, I would reject 

that, because I can’t find anything I haven’t actually done that 

wasn’t, you know, too distasteful for me to do if it needed doing. 

And by the way, if it paid well enough, that helps a lot also. 

So roughly one out of three Americans are not in this workforce, 

and yet I continually hear the request that we should bring more 

people into America. And by the way, they aren’t all going to be 

working, but probably a higher percentage of them than they are 

in America. So if one out of three aren’t working, Marilyn and I 

raised three sons, and they got paid for the work they did, but also 

they got an allowance earlier in life. 

And I am just wondering what it would be like if one of those 

sons had said, I am not going to do my chores, I am not going to 

mow the lawn, I am not going to get the mail, I am not going to 

change the oil on that bulldozer, and I am not going to pick up that 

shovel and dig that ditch, all the things we did in the construction 

business. I want my brothers to do that work and I want you to 

pay me my allowance anyway. You know that wouldn’t last one 

day, and pretty soon that one that wouldn’t work would be the one 

doing all the work until he learned the lesson to carry his share 

of the load. 

So I am wondering how a country like the United States of 

America, with our excellent work ethic that we have and this spirit 

of entrepreneurship that we have, how we can tolerate what is 


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going on? How we can be taxing the producers of America and 

transferring that wealth over onto the couches of America where 

people aren’t getting off of it to go to work sometimes for three generations, and then at the same time press that we should bring 

people into America to do this work that we already are subsidizing 

people sitting on the couch, paying them not to do that work? 

And so I think imagine what America would be like today if we 

were a continent unto ourselves, say similar to Australia, and we 

didn’t have a land bridge to the north, south, east or west, and it 

was thousands of miles of ocean, and we had secured our borders, 

and then we had the labor force that was within us or the labor 

force that was brought in legally into the United States of America. 

Now I will narrow it down to that which you do have focus on, 

and I am going to ask Mr. Wyss, because he has volunteered, and 

that is this: What would America look like if we hadn’t evolved into 

this massive dependency on illegal labor? Would the fields grow up 

to weeds? Would we have more automation? Would there be more 

people working in agriculture? Would there be higher wages, higher benefits? Would the standard of living and quality of life be leveled more? 

And I am going to go to Mr. Wyss, as I promised, for the answer 

to that. 

Mr. WYSS. Thank you, Mr. King. I think your analysis is very 

good. And one example that I would give for our area, the reason 

that we jumped into the H–2A program the way we did is we followed all the government regulations and we received an ICE 

audit, and so we had to let a considerable number of our workers 

go. At the same time that that happened, a sawmill closed in our 

area less than 20 miles away and 200 people were without employment. We offered the job to all 200 people from the sawmill to come 

work in our agricultural fields, and they chose not to take the job. 

Mr. KING. I am sorry, excuse me. I have only got 14 seconds left. 

Mr. WYSS. They wouldn’t take it because they stayed on unemployment. 

Mr. KING. I understand. And we have hired employees for 42 

years, so believe me, I do understand. 

I will just make this point into the record at the close of this time 

as the seconds tick down, and that is this: That Mr. Goodlatte stated that he would like to see these workers go back at least once 

a year. I believe the best program to assure that that happens is 

a bonding program, so that the employment agencies could ensure 

that this does happen, and that would give a high degree of comfort 

to the program. So I want to put that suggestion in. 

I appreciate everybody’s testimony, and I yield back the balance 

of my time to the chairman. 

Mr. BIGGS. Thank you. 

At this time, Mr. Gutie ́rrez. 

Mr. GUTIE ́ RREZ. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And I thank Mr. 

Conyers for allowing me to proceed with questions. Thank you, Mr. 

Conyers. And I want to thank all my colleagues for having cosponsored the bill on the democratic side and look forward to working 

for a bipartisan approach in the future. 

First of all, let’s not go into tangents here about the American 

government paying people to sit at home on their sofas. I don’t 


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know where that program is, but I guess I will search for it. That 

is not the problem here. You see where we are going, right? The 

future of America, and people are lazy, and if they weren’t lazy, we 

wouldn’t need a guestworker program. 

Look, I want to make clear to everybody Ms. Frye and Mr. Wyss 

have been invited by the majority to come and speak here. And I 

am willing to be contradicted, but I listened attentively to what you 

had to say, and it seems to me that Mr. Wyss said that he needs 

these workers to come because the workers who live in the State 

of Washington would prefer to make $11 an hour working in the 

service industry than making 13 and having a home. 

And Mrs. Frye made a little bit different argument if I listened 

correctly. Ms. Frye’s argument is there is just not enough people 

where she farms, there is a lot of acres to farm and not a lot of 

people to do the farming. So we need to bring a population. It isn’t 

that people are lazy out in middle Illinois and in Virginia and in 

Georgia, there is just not enough of them. So we need to bring people in. And I got to tell you, I don’t see people—did I get it right, 

Ms. Frye? 

Ms. FRYE. You nailed it. 

Mr. GUTIE ́ RREZ. Okay. Did I get it right, Mr. Wyss? 

Mr. WYSS. Yes. 

Thank you. I just want to make sure—I mean, my friend, Mr.— 

they are going to just say, well, you two are in the same—right? 

You are always together, so—but these are—the Republicans invite 

farmers to come before this committee to tell us what their problems are, and ask us for solutions, and what we do is we talk about 

people on a couch getting paid by the government and bonds. 

Mr. Wyss, if I heard you correctly, you said there were, like, four 

different agencies. Do you want to add another agency, a bonding 

agency, to get your workers? 

Let me ask the question—Ms. Frye, do you have workers that return to you, year in and year out, to come and work your fields? 

Ms. FRYE. Every year for the past 15 years. 

Mr. GUTIE ́ RREZ. So they come, they work legally under the program—— 

Ms. FRYE. Correct. 

Mr. GUTIE ́ RREZ [continuing]. Leave and then come back to do the 

crops the next year? 

Ms. FRYE. That is accurate. 

Mr. GUTIE ́ RREZ. You look forward to them coming back? 

Ms. FRYE. I do. 

Mr. GUTIE ́ RREZ. Do you see them as farmers? 

Ms. FRYE. I see them as farmers, and I see them as family. 

Mr. GUTIE ́ RREZ. Thank you. You see them as farmers, and you 

see them as family. 

Mr. Wyss, you got people that come back regularly, know your 

farm, know your foremans, know your family? 

Mr. WYSS. I have about a 98 percent return rate. 

Mr. GUTIE ́ RREZ. Ninety-eight percent. So they come, they work, 

and then they come back the next season. And, with you, it would 

probably be, like, 6, 7 weeks, right? Cherries, 6, 7 weeks? 

Mr. WYSS. We bring workers in for 10 months out of the year for 

different contracts. 


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Mr. GUTIE ́ RREZ. For different contracts. But, like, the cherry season has a certain—— 

Mr. WYSS. May to November. 

Mr. GUTIE ́ RREZ. May to November. 

And, Ms. Frye, do you have shorter windows of opportunity? 

Ms. FRYE. We do. Some harvest seasons are only 4 weeks. 

Mr. GUTIE ́ RREZ. Ms. Frye, did you work in the fields when you 

were a young girl? 

Ms. FRYE. I did. Every day. 

Mr. GUTIE ́ RREZ. Tell me what you did. 

Ms. FRYE. I harvested melons. 

Mr. GUTIE ́ RREZ. You harvested melons. Watermelons? 

Ms. FRYE. Watermelons, cantaloupes, sweet corn. 

Mr. GUTIE ́ RREZ. Mr. Kashkooli talked about how back-breaking 

the work. So there is the union representative here, right, the one 

that wants to organize your workers and negotiate with you in the 

future. Would you agree with them that it is back-breaking work? 

Ms. FRYE. It is very hard work. 

Mr. GUTIE ́ RREZ. Is it hot? 

Ms. FRYE. It is very hot work. 

Mr. GUTIE ́ RREZ. Thank you. 

So we have people, the farmers, have come here to represent 

their workers as, number one, people representing the view of the 

majority, that have been invited by the majority here to come and 

speak to us. People that work hard. They are farmers. They are 

family. They come back all of the time. They like them. The police 

come by and then take them to religious activities. I imagine they 

take them to the local churches. That is the kind of community 

that they have developed. I want to see that community develop. 

And, look, let’s stop talking about oh, well, we legalized the 

illegals back in 1986, and then they all ran off the farms. Half of 

the people working the farms are legal. They are citizens and permanent residents. So they didn’t race off of the farms. We just need 

more people. 

I am really happy. This is what my mom—I want the majority— 

here is what my mom—I think this is a very American expression, 

but she didn’t say it in English. And that happens a lot in America, 

that we get American expressions that aren’t in English. They get 

told. She told me, she said, [speaking in foreign language]. Study 

hard now, as a child, so you won’t have to work so hard as an 

adult. That is what we do. That is why I sent my daughters—— 

Mr. BIGGS. Gentleman’s time has expired. 

Mr. GUTIE ́ RREZ [continuing]. To college. That is what we do. Let’s 

stop saying, oh, we can’t do this program because then people are 

going to want to do better for themselves. It is America. They 

should be able to do better for themselves. 

I thank the witnesses for coming before us. 

Mr. BIGGS. Thank you. 

And now the chair recognizes Mr. Johnson from Louisiana. 

Mr. JOHNSON. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank all of you for 

your valuable testimony. This is really helpful. I am from the State 

of Louisiana. Agriculture is a big deal. And we have the same concerns that you do. 


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And, Ms. Frey, first question for you. You mentioned how difficult it is been for you in the farm to find long-term employment 

from local citizens within the community. If I gave you the opportunity and just pitch you a softball, what would you say is—I 

mean, specifically to elaborate on the H–2A program, what can we 

do to make it more workable for the farm? 

Ms. FRYE. Specifically, I think the wage rate needs to be addressed first and foremost. If you are an employer participating in 

the H–2A program, you are at a competitive disadvantage because 

your wage rates are much higher. Not only your rates are much 

higher, you have to provide housing. You have to provide transportation. All of which is perfectly fine. 

No one participating in the program, I think, has a problem with 

doing any of that. But what we would like to see is a more level 

playing field where all workers are paid wages that are similar. 

Mr. JOHNSON. When you are in need of employment, how do you 

advertise for employment? I mean, locally, domestically. What is 

the process you do to try to find local workers? 

Ms. FRYE. So by law, participating in the H–2A program what 

we have to do is we actually have to advertise for the jobs that we 

anticipate having in the upcoming season. So we put ads in the 

newspaper. We run them for a certain period of time. I think we 

even do some—potentially some online advertising. We provide a 

notice to the number of jobs that we have and what types of jobs 

they are so that they can be filled by domestic workers. 

But as I stated before, we farm in very rural areas, and we simply don’t have the population to support the high number of jobs 

that we need for such short seasonal time windows. 

And I will say—and I do feel like I need to add—that the H–2A 

program bringing in the temporary workers not only benefits the 

communities in which we bring them into, because the workers get 

paid a lot of money, and they spend a lot of money in these communities and local businesses, et cetera. 

In addition to that, as we are able to—I mean, if you noticed in 

my opening testimony, we farm in seven States. It is actually well 

over seven States. We would be—every time we increase the number of acres that we grow, pack, ship, and sell direct to retail markets such as Kroger, Wal-Mart, Target, et cetera, we are creating 

domestic jobs that are at a much higher level. So if I am able to 

grow an extra 300 acres of produce that I can sell directly to Whole 

Foods, or Publix, or Meijer, whoever, then I need someone to manage that account with that retailer. 

I need more purchase order clerks. I need more shipping and receiving managers. I need more forklift drivers. I need more farm 

managers. These are all domestic positions that I am able to create 

every time I bring in more workers. So I would say, to answer your 

question, the wage rate needs to be addressed. And, in addition to 

that, we need access to even more guestworkers. 

Mr. JOHNSON. I appreciate that. 

Mr. Wyss, similar question for you. Obviously, we are concerned—we want to reduce the burden on the farmers when there 

is a shortage of labor like this. And I wanted to ask you the same 

general question, specifically what do you think—I mean, the wage 

rate is obviously part of it. But are there other things, for example, 


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in modernizing the H–2A visa process, do you have any recommendations on how we can streamline the application process? 

Because I know it is a big burden. 

Mr. WYSS. I think Ms. Frye covered it very well as to some of 

the major problems. But also to streamline the program with the 

application process, I mean, I think we could do a lot in the application process to make that more streamlined. And I think, me personally, the Department of Labor is who oversees this program. 

But they are also the program auditor. So you have the same agency who approves you is the same agency who audits you. 

Moving the program over into the farm—USDA, would probably 

be very helpful because they have a better understanding of 

OnFarm. They run all the farm programs with us already. I think 

that would be a massive help. 

Mr. JOHNSON. I have got sixteen seconds. But I will just pitch 

one more question, and see if you can answer real quick. I know 

you talked about the I–9 inspection and audit that you all went 

through. Any suggestions there on how that process might be improved, that could have helped in that situation? Flexibility in responding, for example. Would that help? 

Mr. WYSS. Well, entry to the program. So after our ICE audit we 

had to enter the program overnight and you have to wait a hundred days to get a worker. We needed them the next day. So if they 

could shorten that process down to like what they do with H1B, 

H2B, in an attestation base, we could have received those workers 

when we needed them and not waited a hundred days. 

Mr. JOHNSON. Thank you all for your testimony. I yield back. 

Mr. BIGGS. Gentleman’s time has expired. 

I will recognize the ranking member of the Judiciary Committee, 

Mr. Conyers. 

Mr. CONYERS. Thank you very much. I apologize for missing the 

original testimony. But I do have a couple of questions here. Ms. 

Frye—wait a minute. Or Mr. Kashkooli, in Ms. Frye’s testimony I 

was told that she outlines a proposal for allowing undocumented 

farm workers to become H–2A workers. Would the United Farm 

Workers support such a proposal in your view? 

Mr. KASHKOOLI. We wouldn’t support that proposal. I think what 

makes more sense is Congressman Gutie ́rrez’s proposal that takes 

the current workforce who are professional farm workers and allows them to get a blue card or temporary legal status. That actually solves the problem that I heard more directly, the issue that 

I have heard Ms. Frye, in particular, address, which is they are in 

areas where there are not a large number of workers, and so therefore it is hard to attract workers. 

The blue card giving professional farm workers legal status, and 

also an incentive to stay in agriculture would allow the market to 

work and allow it to work more efficiently by taking a million or 

so farm workers who would be newly acquired with blue cards and 

have them have an incentive to match themselves to a more willing 

employer. I think that is the more logical step. And I also note that 

it has a lot more support in Congress than the other proposal. 

Mr. CONYERS. Thank you. Now, would allowing existing farm 

workers to obtain temporary immigration status satisfy your interest in addressing the current workforce? 


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Mr. KASHKOOLI. Yeah. It would. I think that is what the agricultural worker program does, program act does, H.R. 2690. 

Mr. CONYERS. Finally, while the majority of the agricultural 

workforce is undocumented and in need of an earned legalization 

program, there is still several hundred thousand legal immigrants 

and citizens who still seek employment in agriculture. With the necessity for jobs in the forefront of the political debate, we need to 

assure these individuals are not harmed under this new policy. 

How would these legal immigrants and citizens be affected by a 

new temporary worker program like the ones that other witnesses 

are proposing? 

Mr. KASHKOOLI. I can’t speak to what other witnesses speak. But 

I will speak to the one that Chairman Goodlatte suggested. Eliminating the 50 percent rule means that U.S. citizens and legal permanent residents who want to work in agriculture wouldn’t be able 

to. So we think that is a mistake. 

Reducing wages below the average wage that employers themselves have submitted to the United States Government, that is a 

mistake. By definition, that will reduce the wages of all farm workers. 

Removing free housing, that is a mistake. As Ms. Frye eloquently 

suggested, bringing people in for short seasons of work, if you don’t 

provide free housing, where is it that this group of people miraculously are going to show up that no one else, U.S. citizens, are willing to do the job? Where is it that they are going to live. We know 

from history where they are going to live. They are going to live 

on riverbeds, on school parks. That is where folks live. And, unfortunately, in some cases, that is where people are living now without homes. 

So making those types of changes make no sense. Now, doing 

something online as opposed to forced reams of paperwork, that 

makes sense. Having a transparent so that every employer knows 

which labor contractor has been found guilty of the types of things 

that were found in Arizona where people were housing in 

schoolbuses. 

Right now, if Ms. Frye or Mr. Wyss wants to look up a new labor 

contractor, they don’t know. There is no good way for them to find 

out if they have been found guilty of housing people in schoolbuses 

or cheating people on wages. So that would be a simple thing to 

honor employers who have done the right thing and to make sure 

U.S. workers and new workers come into the United States. And, 

if I can, I just want to address Congressman King’s comment. He 

said that if you had one of your sons not doing work. Let’s do the 

other one. If one out of 150 people in the United States is making 

sure to feed everybody—and our industry is the only industry in 

the United States that impacts everybody. Everyone eats. If one 

out of 150 people had worked for 15 to 20 years making sure all 

of us fed, doesn’t it make sense, by Congressman King’s own logic, 

that that would be the person you would want to reward, not the 

one you want to punish? 

Mr. BIGGS. Thank you. 

Mr. CONYERS. Thank you very much. 

Mr. BIGGS. The gentleman’s time has expired. Thank you, Mr. 

Conyers. 


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And I recognize myself for 5 minutes to ask a few questions. And 

I will start with you, Mr. Kashkooli. What is your organization’s estimate of the number of currently unauthorized farm workers in 

the U.S.? 

Mr. KASHKOOLI. As I mentioned with Ms. Lofgen, those numbers 

are a little challenging. But what we would guess is there is roughly 2 million farm workers, professional farm workers, in the United 

States. Government statistics suggest that about half don’t have 

legal status. So that would mean that the number is about a million people. 

Mr. BIGGS. And, Mr. Kashkooli, you have called for increasing 

farm workers protections. Can you tell me what provisions are included in the Agricultural Worker Program Act that might be addressing those issues that you have identified? 

Mr. KASHKOOLI. Well, the biggest thing that the Agricultural 

Worker Program Act does is it allows professional farm workers to 

earn legal status. That one step, taking people out of shadows 

means that that group of people can get a driver’s license and move 

more freely, move to jobs in other parts of the country. There aren’t 

any other protections beyond that other than earning that legal 

status. But that is a big one. Because it means you are not worried 

constantly about being deported from the country. And it means 

that you can move freely and seek employers that are treating you 

correctly. 

So you are not undermining U.S. workers and legal permanent 

residents who are more prepared to speak out. So that is the only 

protection that the Agricultural Worker Program Act, but it is a 

very, very, very important one. 

Mr. BIGGS. The next question is for either or both of you, Ms. 

Frye, Mr. Wyss. Chalmers Carr has said that many farmers prefer 

to employ illegals because it is cheaper and they remain off Federal 

and legal radars. Do you get the sense that the government is at 

least providing some kind of perverse incentives for hiring illegal 

immigrants rather than use the H–2A program? 

Ms. FRYE. Yes. Yes. The Department of Labor is like family. 

They stop by all the time. 

Mr. BIGGS. Elaborate, will you, please, both? 

Ms. FRYE. It seems like every time we turn around. I mean, go 

back maybe 3, 4 years ago, on July 23rd, we were visited by Homeland Security, the Department of Labor, the—let’s see here, OSHA, 

the FDA, and the Migratory Farm Workers legal counsel in 1 day, 

five agencies. Five agencies in 1 day. Oh, it was State and Federal 

DOL as well. 

So, yeah, I think that when you do participate in a program such 

as the H–2A program you have a big target on your back. And, you 

know, folks come by and, you know, they check on you early in the 

season, which is great because—you know, obviously, these—you 

are bringing in foreign workers. That is completely understandable. 

And they want to make sure housing is inspected and everything 

is good. That is great. But then they don’t stop coming. And it creates a challenge. 

And I think that employers of the H–2A program have actually 

been targets for a lot of audits. And that is unfortunate. Because, 

I tell you what, the folks who are using the H–2A program in this 


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country are American farmers who love their country, want to uphold the law, treat their workers fairly, pay them an incredible 

wage rate, and really just want to grow fruits and vegetables in a 

lawful way. The idea that those growers have been targeted— 

which they have—and I can speak to my own experiences—versus 

who you, Mr. Kashkooli, were talking about earlier, contract laborers—this not farmers. 

You weren’t talking about a farmer earlier making people live in 

schoolbuses. Okay? You are talking about contract laborers if I understood you correctly. So this could be anyone who has a group of 

workers working under them, paying them whatever they want to 

pay. The workers have no direct relationship whatsoever with the 

farmer whose fruits and vegetables they are actually harvesting. 

You know, so I think those are the folks that probably need to 

be getting looked at a little bit harder versus people who are participating, growers who are participating in the H–2A program, 

who are trying to abide by the law and treat workers fairly, and 

pay a loaded wage rate between 15 and $16 an hour. That is just 

my observation. 

Mr. BIGGS. Well, thank you. Thank you. And I am glad I asked 

you to elaborate as well. 

Mr. Wyss, she elaborated for you as well. So you don’t need to 

at this point. 

Mr. WYSS. She is good. I would have said the same thing. 

Mr. BIGGS. And my time is now expired as well. 

And as we get ready to close this hearing, thank you. I thank all 

the participants who have come and testified today, and appreciate 

your testimony, members of the committee as well. And, with that, 

we are adjourned. 

Mr. WYSS. Thank you so much. 

[Whereupon, at 3:56 p.m., the subcommittee was adjourned.] 

Æ 


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