Appendix I 

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Exhibit 1 

 

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HOGR DOJ 006707

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HOGR ATF - 001451

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GEORGE THOMAS GILLETT 05/17/2011

ARIZONA REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (602)

www. Phoenix, AZ

2

INDEX TO EXAMINATIONS

WITNESS PAGE

GEORGE GILLETT

Examination by Mr. Castor 10

Examination by Mr. Sherman 55

Examination by Mr. Lindsay 70

Further Examination by Mr. Sherman 90

Further Examination by Mr. Lindsay 92

Examination by Mr. Foster 96

Further Examination by Mr. Castor 132

Examination by Mr. Kerner 140

Further Examination by Mr. Lindsay 141

Further Examination by Mr. Sherman 153

Further Examination by Mr. Castor 178

Further Examination by Mr. Foster 194

Further Examination by Mr. Castor 196

Further Examination by Mr. Foster 202

Further Examination by Mr. Lindsay 209

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GEORGE THOMAS GILLETT 05/17/2011

ARIZONA REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (602)

www. Phoenix, AZ

12

this document attached outlined a conference call that

the DAG's office requested with all the agency heads,

Mr. Mueller from the FBI, Ms. Leonard from DEA,

Mr. Melson from ATF, and it scheduled a conference call

to discuss the specifics.

Q. And was that part of the overall Project

Gunrunner?

A. ATF's Project Gunrunner was directly affected by

that proposed strategy, yes, sir.

Q. Do you know if the U.S. Attorney's Office,

District of Arizona, was involved in that communication?

A. Yes, sir. Also requested to be included in that

conference call was Mr. Burke, B-u-r-k-e, who was the

U.S. Attorney for the District of Arizona.

Q. Was it your understanding that at that time DOJ

was looking to ATF to focus on cartels and more of an

organized crime level rather than straw purchasers?

A. Yes, sir. The content of that plan specifically

addressed wanting ATF not to focus on straw purchasers,

but to focus on cartels and larger complex conspiracy

type investigations.

Q. How did that initiative trickle down to the

agents in the Phoenix field office?

A. Well, to kind of paint the picture, there was

the IG reports that addressed the ineffective nature of

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GEORGE THOMAS GILLETT 05/17/2011

ARIZONA REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (602)

www. Phoenix, AZ

13

straw purchasers. The drug enforcement for the office

here in Phoenix was looking to stand up an organized

crime drug enforcement task force strike force, OCDETF.

And the special agent in charge of the DEA office was

asking for ATF's participation in this joint

multi-agency strike force.

ATF here was not able to get any straw purchase

prosecutions at the time because of an interpretation of

the law by the U.S. Attorney's Office here in the

District of Arizona. So this strategy in October 2009

handed down by the DAG's office, actually from the

Phoenix perspective, was well timed and provided us with

direction on how to proceed in these types of firearms

trafficking investigations.

Q. And how long were you in Phoenix at this time as

of October '09 as the ASAC?

A. I arrived in early June of '08, so that would

have been approximately 16 months.

Q. And was it your experience that the prosecution

of straw purchasers was a challenge?

A. In the best terms. And the U.S. Attorney's

Office had issue with, in their opinion, in prosecuting

straw purchasers. It was the U.S. Attorney's Office's

position that they needed the guns for prosecutions in

the courtroom. And because the guns, a majority of the

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GEORGE THOMAS GILLETT 05/17/2011

ARIZONA REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (602)

www. Phoenix, AZ

14

time, had been recovered in Mexico, the U.S. Attorney's

Office felt they couldn't prosecute the straw

purchasers, and referred to it as a corpus issue with

regard to the statute, the federal statute. So there

were virtually no straw purchase prosecutions.

Q. Was there any organized communication between

the U.S. Attorney's Office and ATF's Phoenix field

office about this problem or question?

A. Yes, sir, there was. In fact, there was a

number of meetings held between ASAC Needles

N-e-e-d-l-e-s, ATF's counsel in Phoenix, Tom Karmgard,

K-a-r-m-g-a-r-d, and the leadership at the

U.S. Attorney's Office here in Phoenix.

Q. Was Mr. Newell involved in those conversations?

A. I believe he was, yes, sir.

Q. But you were not?

A. I don't recall being involved in those meetings

specifically at the time. Until October 1st, the only

enforcement group that I oversaw in Phoenix was the

intelligence group, which was not involved in

prosecutions. So I covered the enforcement groups in

the southern half of Arizona, in Tucson, as well as the

southern half of New Mexico.

Q. I see. Until you learned about this meeting

from Mr. Needles or from Mr. Newell?

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GEORGE THOMAS GILLETT 05/17/2011

ARIZONA REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (602)

www. Phoenix, AZ

15

A. We would have meetings, we being Mr. Needles,

Mr. Newell and I, regularly regard to this issue, as

well as Mr. Karmgard, and we disagreed with the position

of the U.S. Attorney's Office. But it was something

that Mr. Newell and Mr. Burke were working out, as well

as Mr. Needles and Mr. Karmgard.

Q. And on Mr. Burke's side, who else was involved

in those discussions, to your knowledge? Was Emory

Hurley, for example? We understand he is the AUSA that

has responsibility for firearms.

A. I believe Mr. Hurley was involved, yes. I am

not sure Mr. Cunningham was involved at that point. I

really don't recall who from their office was

specifically involved.

Q. Do you know if this dialogue with the

U.S. Attorney's Office led to a different approach in

the ATF Phoenix field office?

A. Yes, sir, it did. ATF was making some efforts

to have ATF special agents travel into Mexico or ATF

assistant attachés in Mexico to travel to scenes, crime

scenes where firearms were recovered, examine the

firearms, and place themselves in a position to travel

to Arizona to testify in the straw purchase cases.

That was difficult at best coordinating with the

government of Mexico. The system, the judicial system

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GEORGE THOMAS GILLETT 05/17/2011

ARIZONA REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (602)

www. Phoenix, AZ

16

in Mexico is different than the United States. The

military is involved in seizing firearms. And the

firearms are almost immediately removed to military

bases. So actually getting to scenes and examining

firearms, or getting onto military installations in

Mexico was very, very tedious, and a delicate situation.

Q. So the strategy for the ATF agents here in

Phoenix then changed at some point after those

discussions with the U.S. Attorney's Office?

A. Yes, sir. And with all these issues coming to a

head, the reports and the strategy from Justice, ATF --

Q. And the corpus issue?

A. -- the corpus issue, the lack of prosecutions,

the straw purchasers, the focus here in Phoenix as well

as across the country as far as I am concerned became to

look at these cartels as a conspiracy, and trying to go

after the shot callers, if you will, within the cartel,

the upper echelon, instead of going after the straw

purchasers.

Q. As I understand it, in the latter half of '09,

some of the special agents in your office, such as Hope

MacAllister, began collecting information from some of

the area FFLs about suspected large bulk purchases from

suspicious persons.

A. Yes, sir. On October 1st of 2009, ATF

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GEORGE THOMAS GILLETT 05/17/2011

ARIZONA REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (602)

www. Phoenix, AZ

35

So the other thing that I guess I will say with

regard to October is I transitioned the oversight as the

ASAC of this investigation to ASAC Needles in mid April.

So as far as the developments between then and October,

I believe I was just forwarded this briefing paper,

because Mr. Needles was unavailable at that time.

Q. So you don't know whether there was a change in

strategy to not necessarily slow down the firearms, like

the strategy appeared to be in January?

A. In October I am not sure if there was, but I am

not aware that the strategy ever changed significantly

at any point during the investigation.

Q. Do you know if the attempt to slow the purchases

of guns worked?

A. I believe it worked, yes, sir.

Q. So the strategies that were put in place in

January or at least referenced in the OCDETF paper, you

think they were successful?

A. Yes, sir, because , the owner of ,

would tell these straw purchasers when the straw

purchasers would call the store that his shipment wasn't

coming in for days ahead of time, when in fact he would

have them in his store. So he would keep the straw

purchasers on the hook and say it will just be a couple

more days, I expect them tomorrow. That next day would

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GEORGE THOMAS GILLETT 05/17/2011

ARIZONA REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (602)

www. Phoenix, AZ

41

A. Okay. But if he called up in the end of

April he didn't speak to me, because I was off from

April 16th. So after April 16th -- from April 16th

until June 2nd I was out of the office. And after that

I no longer had oversight of the investigation. So if

Mr. Gil stated that he called the end of April and spoke

to me and expressed concerns, that would be inaccurate,

because I wasn't in the office.

Q. Fair enough. I was representing to you it is my

recollection he said it was March or April.

A. Okay.

Q. So... But do you remember generally any other

issues being raised by the ATF folks in Mexico?

A. I don't. Like I said, the Mexico folks

generally weren't coming to talk to me. They were

talking to Mr. Newell.

Q. Okay. If you flip over to tab 20.

A. Yes, sir, I have it in front of me.

Q. It is an e-mail between Dave Voth and Brian

Kenrick, who was an ATF lawyer in Rockford, Illinois.

A. Right, yes, sir.

Q. As I understand the process for going up on a

wire, correct me if I am wrong, but ATF is going to go

up on a wire, a case agent would work with the

U.S. Attorney to put together the application?

248 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
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Exhibit 5 

 

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Exhibit 35 

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Exhibit 36 

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Exhibit 37 

Exhibit 37 

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Exhibit 38 

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Exhibit 39 

Exhibit 39 

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Exhibit 40 

Exhibit 40 

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Exhibit 41 

Exhibit 41 

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Exhibit 42 

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Exhibit 43 

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443 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
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445 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
446 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
447 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
448 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
449 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
450 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
451 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
452 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
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Exhibit 44 

Exhibit 44 

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458 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
Exhibit 45 

Exhibit 45 

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460 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
Exhibit 46 

Exhibit 46 

461 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
462 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
463 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
464 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
465 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
466 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
467 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
Exhibit 47 

Exhibit 47 

468 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
HOGR ATF - 001189

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Exhibit 48 

Exhibit 48 

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U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

HOUSE COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND

GOVERNMENT REFORM

IN THE MATTER OF: )

)

ATF'S PROJECT GUNRUNNER AND )

OPERATION FAST AND FURIOUS. )

 )

INTERVIEW OF

Phoenix, Arizona

May 18, 2011

ARIZONA REPORTING SERVICE, INC.

Court Reporting

P 1

By:

Prepared for: ter

Certificate No. 50658

MR. STEPHEN CASTOR

Attorney at Law

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INDEX TO EXAMINATIONS

WITNESS PAGE

Examination by Mr. Castor 59

Examination by Mr. Foster 103

Further Examination by Mr. Castor 108

Further Examination by Mr. Foster 124

Further Examination by Mr. Castor 132

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Gunrunner, we, I, as an owner of the gun store and an

FFL dealer, have always cooperated and informed the

Phoenix field office of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco,

Firearms, and Explosives of any sales involving either

large numbers of military type gray weapons or handguns,

anything of this nature. And this is above and beyond.

We have always cooperated.

In fact, I made reference to this this year in a

statement dated February 1st, which applies to those

individuals I feel that do uphold the law and don't use

it as a political hidden agenda. But that's beside the

point.

To continue, these purchases, once I was

notified by Hope MacAllister directly, she asked me to

notify her via cell number, which is (602) . I

know it by heart. I asked her at that time why, what is

up. Her answer to me is well, you can expect to see an

increase of purchases of AK-47 type rifles. This, of

course, is not a surprise. We do carry them as part of

our inventory, as a lot of other stores do. When I say

carry, I don't stock normally more than, say, six or

eight in any given time normally.

What occurred immediately, within five days,

four to five days, of my conversation with Agent

MacAllister in which she is giving me a heads-up to

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Getting back to it, Agent MacAllister nor any

other agent identified the cash, recorded serial

numbers, didn't photograph it. No drug sniffing dog was

brought in by the Phoenix Police Department, which they

do, by the way, maintain a logbook of when those dogs

are used. That didn't happen until much later in the

declining months of 2010, in which I was instructed

personally by Agent MacAllister and representatives from

ATF to set this cash aside in a plastic bag in which the

narcotics dogs could take an assessment of it to

determine if there were narcotics somehow on the money.

Now, getting back to, say, approximately

October, November of 2009, I had my meeting, once again

at my request, what I believe was going to be David Voth

and Hope MacAllister. Emory Hurley introduced himself.

He was introduced to me, rather, by the two ATF agents.

And in my office, I voiced my concerns over several

subjects, one of which primarily was the amount of

weapons that were being purchased at my store.

Now, it is important to note that I had never

before seen an instance in my 20 years of doing business

where we would see purchases go from, say, zero to 50

quite literally overnight, within a matter of days being

notified by ATF. And particularly with the cash

involved at this juncture, I expressed my concern to

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what I believe was the head of the meeting, which would

be Emory Hurley. He's the Assistant United States

Attorney, who was also identified to me by the agents as

the prosecuting attorney of these cases they were

beginning to get into.

Emory Hurley began in an exculpatory manner

saying towards me that my help has been demonstrative

and beyond belief that I would help them in a just

cause. Demonstrative was the exact term Assistant

U.S. Attorney Hurley used. I decided to simply ask what

was on my mind, and that is how long is this case going

to continue; number two, do I still keep bringing these

weapons into my store, because, number three, apparently

word is getting out on the street from your targets that

all of a sudden now I am attracting a lot of other

individual buyers respect not just the targets but I am

getting a lot of peripheral activity.

In other words, we have females coming in;

Caucasian; Hispanic; Black, African American. It really

didn't matter. Everybody seemed to be coming in and

starting to purchase one, two, three. But the initial

targets that ATF was focused on at that time would be

Jacob Chambers and Sean Stewart. They focused their

attention primarily on them.

What I found strange was that they would use

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money, they would come right in and without a care in

the world make purchases as if nobody was watching them.

It was just uncanny. I didn't understand it. It made

no sense. I have never seen this before. And trust me,

I am quite literally familiar, being 20 years in this

business, of how these things go. This followed not a

predictable ordinary pattern whatsoever. And I voiced

these concerns to all three of the individuals at that

December 17th meeting in 2009.

I was instructed in that meeting in no uncertain

terms by the agents and the Assistant United States

Attorney himself to continue to stock these weapons,

second, to keep working and inform the Phoenix field

office and their agents and keep them apprised of all

developments with regard to these types of purchases.

Now, what you must understand, I never suspected

at that point that there was a problem with this. I

trusted ATF, as I always have. They are my regulatory

agency who licenses me, audits me, oversees me. And

these are federal agents. And also that this is a

United States Assistant U.S. Attorney here in Phoenix.

So I had no reason to doubt or suspect anything in

comparison to what we now know. So I went along with

this.

And all the way through this going into year

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Q. The ATF agents?

A. That is correct, Agent Dodson being one of them

that I experienced myself.

Q. Who from ATF first invited you to have a camera

put in the store?

A. Hope MacAllister.

Q. And you believe that happened in late spring of

2010?

A. Yes.

Q. And did she have to make a sales pitch to you on

that?

A. No. She emphasized the importance of my

cooperation, that it was leading to so many different

areas, that my help was so, you know, monumental that it

would be so helpful if they were able to do that, which

led me to believe that I was doing what I was supposed

to do, cooperate under the guidelines of the license.

So I said sure, put it in.

Q. Was it your understanding they were watching the

camera so they could surveil some of these straw

purchase suspects?

A. That is the purpose they told me, yes.

Q. Was it your understanding they were going to

interdict these weapons shortly after?

A. Absolutely. I was assured all the way through

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this program that they would be stopped before they

would ever harm anyone or get below the border.

Q. So ATF made affirmative representations to you

that these weapons would be interdicted?

A. The entire time.

Q. Did they make any representations to you that

other FFLs were participating in a similar type of

arrangement?

A. They did.

Q. Did they give you the names of those FFLs?

A. was one them in Prescott. I do not

recall any others, but they said there were others.

Q. Do you know if any other FFLs had cameras in

their store?

A. I was not told.

Q. Did you ever have any conversations with any

other area FFLs about this?

A. No, I did not.

Q. Were you told not to by ATF?

A. Yes. I was told somewhere along the line that,

the exact verbiage I can't recall, something like we

need to keep this quiet, something along those lines. I

cannot be specific, though. That was my understanding.

Q. When the indictment came out in January 2011,

were you surprised to have your name all over that?

478 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
Exhibit 49 

Exhibit 49 

479 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
 

 

1 

RPTS

DCMN

COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND 

GOVERNMENT REFORM, 

U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 

INTERVIEW OF: DAVID VOTH 

Thursday, June 30, 2011 

Washington, D.C. 

The interview in the above matter was held in Room 2247 Rayburn 

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2 

House Office Building, commencing at 10:05 a.m.

481 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
 

 

3 

Appearances: 

For the HOUSE COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM: 

STEVE CASTOR, CHIEF COUNSEL, INVESTIGATIONS 

CARLTON DAVIS, COUNSEL 

ASHOK M. PINTO, DEPUTY CHIEF COUNSEL, INVESTIGATIONS 

JESSICA LAUX, COUNSEL 

SUSANNE SACHSMAN GROOMS, MINORITY CHIEF COUNSEL 

DONALD K. SHERMAN, MINORITY COUNSEL 

JUSTIN KIM, MINORITY PROFESSIONAL STAFF 

For the SENATE COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY: 

JASON PARIS, CHIEF COUNSEL FOR OVERSIGHT AND NOMINATIONS 

CHAN PARK, SENIOR COUNSEL 

JASON A. FOSTER, CHIEF INVESTIGATIVE COUNSEL 

TRISTAN LEAVITT, MINORITY STAFF 

BRIAN M. DOWNEY, MINORITY INVESTIGATOR 

ROB DONOVAN, MINORITY STAFF 

 

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For the DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE: 

MOLLY GASTON, ATTORNEY ADVISOR, OFFICE OF LEGISLATIVE AFFAIRS 

For MR. VOTH: 

GREG SERRES, DEPUTY CHIEF COUNSEL, ATF 

 

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89 

I think, historically, they had opted, to some extent, to take 

the cases to the State court in just kind of like a fraud-type statute. 

It had nothing to do with firearms specifically. It's just the fact 

that you -- I guess it would be like a nonsufficient check really. You 

know, it was a fraud-type count. I know they have gone that route 

specifically because of not getting where they thought they wanted to 

get with firearms prosecutions with regards to straw-purchase cases. 

Q Okay. 

A And so I think there was a general sense of that frustration. 

And I'm quite certain Mr. Newell was aware of it. He had been there 

the longest, and he had talked about some of the hurdles of working 

in Phoenix and how we were trying to get past some of these things and 

move forward. 

Q I think I'm at the end of my time, but I have a couple more 

questions. 

So when you raised that concern, what came down? 

A Well, I know there was -- one of the issues was this corpus 

delecti issue, as the U.S. Attorney's Office calls it. And I know 

Mr. Karmgard prepared a corpus delecti kind of briefing, where he cited 

some caselaw and stuff, and sent that over to the U.S. Attorney's Office 

and had some discussion with them on, kind of, the ATF position on that. 

You know, the position of corpus delecti is that if the gun goes 

to Mexico and is recovered in Mexico, it kind of never happened, because 

we can't use that in court. It would be hearsay or whatever for a 

criminal prosecution. And so they believed, correctly or incorrectly, 

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97 

wasn't a strategic initiative, and this case she did had different 

defendants. I mean, just some real general facts, nothing specific 

that I remember. 

Q But you knew at that time that you were talking to her that 

was a cooperating FFL in this case, Fast and Furious -- what 

became the Fast and Furious case. 

A Yes. 

Q So you mentioned a December 17 meeting. Are you aware 

of -- let's back up a second before we get to that. Are you aware of 

an October or November 2009 meeting that other agents may have had with 

? 

A No. I was not in Phoenix at that time period. 

Q Right. I understand you wouldn't have firsthand knowledge, 

but do you have any secondhand knowledge? Were you aware of a meeting 

that occurred in that time frame that included Mr. Emory Hurley, the 

assistant U.S. attorney? 

A No, I am not aware. 

Q Are you aware of any meetings that Emory Hurley may have 

attended at office at any time? 

A Just the one that I was at on December 17. 

Q So that took place at office? 

A Yes. It is a little office in the back of the gun shop. 

Q Can you tell us about that meeting? 

A Yes. We went in. It was Emory Hurley and another AUSA who 

I don't remember and who is no longer an AUSA; it was a female. It 

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was Hope, it was Emory, it was me, it was . We went into his office 

and told him that we can't tell him who to sell guns to, we can't tell 

him not to sell guns to people, that it is his business and he needs 

to follow his business practice and his business license. But in the 

event that somebody called, let's say, from a phone number prior to 

picking up guns, if he could provide us that phone number off his caller 

ID, that that would be helpful. He didn't have the video surveillance 

in his store that he owned or maintains. We talked about putting one 

in, an ATF one that we would monitor. We talked about if there are 

any license plates he could get, that would be helpful. We just 

generally talked about cooperation. 

Q Why was Emory Hurley at that meeting? 

A He is an AUSA. We wanted to make sure that we were following 

the letter of the law and not asking him to do anything illegal, and 

also not violating anybody's civil liberties by denying their right 

to firearms. So he is a person with legal -- I guess you would call 

it legal expertise for lack of anything better I guess. He certainly 

seemed like a logical choice. He was involved in the investigation. 

He was aware of the cooperation of the FFL in the investigation. 

Q So how many other times did you have assistant U.S. attorneys 

go and talk to cooperating FFLs? 

A Just this occasion, and the occasion when we went to meet 

with at . 

Q So those two occasions and this case. How about any other 

cases? 

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A I don't think I was involved in any other cases. 

Q Why not? 

A I didn't really have firearms trafficking cases going on in 

my previous role at the ATF. And we weren't really seeing the same 

problem, so we didn't have the same need to cooperate with FFLs like 

that. 

Q What was the problem? You said you didn't see the same 

problem. What was the problem? 

A Well, the large volume of guns being purchased. In St. Paul, 

Minneapolis, I mean, if someone buys one High Point or three High 

Points, they don't buy the same volume of firearms that we see in 

Phoenix. 

Q So Mr. Hurley got involved in the meeting on December 17 for 

what purpose? 

A I thought I answered that; to make sure that we weren't 

denying anybody's civil liberties or their Second Amendment right. 

And we also weren't doing the opposite of that and asking him to do 

illegal sales. 

Q Who suggested that Emory Hurley come to the meeting? 

A I don't know. 

Q So it wasn't your idea? 

A I don't think so. It was just, hey, we are going to have 

a meeting with , Emory is coming. 

Q Was it Mr. Hurley's idea? 

A I don't know. 

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Q Did request to meet with Mr. Hurley? 

A I don't know. I guess I didn't question who -- 

Q Who told you Mr. Hurley was going to be there? 

A I think Hope. I think she said we are going to have this 

meeting Thursday -- whatever the day of the week -- and we are going 

to go talk to , and Emory is going to be there. And I didn't think 

twice I guess. 

Q So did express any concerns at the meeting about 

his cooperation? 

A No. 

Q Did he ask any questions? 

A No. He just asked like logical questions about phone 

numbers or license plates or the camera, where the camera would be and 

stuff like that. 

Q So he just asked sort of practical, logistical kinds of 

questions? 

A Yes. 

Q He did not raise any concerns about the numbers of guns that 

he was selling to folks who were known to the ATF to be suspected straw 

purchasers? 

A Not that I remember. 

Q You say not that you remember. Could he have said that and 

you have forgotten? 

A I suppose. I can't remember. I remember our meeting was 

whether or not he was doing anything illegal, follow the letter of the 

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183 

RPTS 

DCMN 

A When they determined that the two guns found at the scene 

were purchased by Jaime Avila I got a phone call from ASAC George 

Gillett, and he said that he wanted Mr. Avila arrested 15 minutes ago, 

expressing to me a sense of urgency. 

I contacted Emory Hurley personally, relayed that information to 

him. There was initially a little bit of what I guess I would 

characterize as maybe reluctance in that he was concerned about 

charging the entire case and if this would compromise the entire case 

by revealing all the other -- through discovery -- all the other reports 

and wiretaps and all that stuff. 

And I suggested, if possible, we could find a kind of stand-alone 

reason to charge him if that would suffice to satisfy his concern. 

He asked me what I was thinking, and I expressed that if we could 

try to do what would generally be characterized as a residency check, 

if we could determine he didn't live at the residence he listed on the 

4473, if he would be agreeable to charging that kind of stand-alone 

violation for purposes of satisfying the direction that I got to arrest 

Mr. Avila. 

He said he was open to that idea, and so I sent a couple of agents 

out to the address that he had been using on the 4473s, which, without 

knowing the exact numbers, I'm genuinely thinking I have the right 

address, Lane or something like that. 

When agents went out, they made contact at Lane. 

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The current occupants of the House stated that they purchased the house 

at some sort of maybe auction or sheriff's auction or something 

generally in April of 2010, and this is now December of 2010. 

And you know the things that go along with the residency check: 

Do you know Jaime Avila? No. Show him a photo. No, I don't know that 

guy. Does he live here? No, he doesn't live here. These kind of 

questions or statements. 

Went back to Mr. Hurley and said we had done the residency check 

and that Mr. Avila had, at the very least, not lived there since April, 

maybe before, maybe not, but at the very least since April. 

So he said to find the latest gun purchased after April, and we 

submitted a complaint for that. And that was a June purchase or maybe 

a couple June purchases that were maybe close in time in June. And 

so we prepared a complaint, and we arrested Mr. Avila, and I think the 

complaint is in the court record or something. 

Q And he was apprehended relatively quickly? 

A I think that night, whatever that night was. 

Q So there was a reluctance, we understand, before Avila's 

arrest to not arrest the suspects in the case because Mr. Hurley didn't 

think there was enough evidence to do an arrest or to do an indictment? 

A On the entire case or on Mr. Avila? 

Q Just on all the defendants. 

I mean, there's a couple ways to do this. You could have done 

each one separately as soon as you found information on each particular 

defendant -- 

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say that I don't recollect being told or telling people that it was 

under their pay grade or this continual, as you expressed, 

dissatisfaction or whatever. 

Mr. Castor. This is Exhibit 7. 

 [Voth Exhibit No. 7 

 was marked for identification.] 

BY MR. FOSTER: 

Q So you're familiar with this email that's referred to as the 

schism email by a lot of folks? 

A Yes. 

Q So what is your reaction to this email and the way that people 

have pointed to this and said this is evidence that corroborates the 

testimony of the agents? 

A I don't think it corroborates it at all. The purpose of this 

email and the reason this email was sent is it's dated March 12th, the 

wire was going up on March 15th, and a lot of people were concerned 

about their scheduling on the wire and if they were on surveillance 

or if they were in the wire room, if they were working Saturday, if 

they were working at night, if they were working Sunday, when was their 

day off, why were they on this assignment, so and so had that assignment. 

And I don't know maybe if you view it from a different light. You 

know, what I'm talking about. It's an exciting opportunity to use the 

biggest tool in our law enforcement toolbox. That's the wiretap. And 

that, you know, it's the domestic -- it's the pinnacle of domestic U.S. 

law enforcement techniques. That's the wiretap. After this the 

491 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
 

 

202 

toolbox is empty. That's the wiretap. 

And, you know, I understand that maybe it wasn't the best email. 

You know, the fact that it's fine -- and what I meant by fine is, it's 

a complex investigation, it's a wiretap, it's dynamic, it's complex. 

There's a lot of things going on, and it could be an exciting time if 

people would pull together and contribute. And, instead, they're 

worried about why is so and so on this schedule, and I'm in the wire 

room? Why am I not on surveillance? I have more seniority or 

something than her or whatever. 

It was strictly about the wire and the working of the wire and 

the scheduling of the wire. It wasn't about the way the case was being 

worked. 

Q So, prior to this, you never had any discussions with any 

of these agents about whether or not your definition of walking guns 

or their definition of walking guns was correct or any kind of concerns 

about walking guns? 

A No. The only even close discussion to the word walking guns 

that I remember was Mr. Dodson's case, and I don't know if I can talk 

about it. I think it's the Isaiah Fernandez or Hernandez case. I can 

tell you the case number. The name is either Fernandez or Hernandez. 

But it is 785115-10- . 

I mean, that was the only, you know, time that -- 

Mr. Park. I'm sorry, could you repeat that? 

Mr. Voth. I'm sorry, sir. 785115-10- . That's the case 

number. 

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205 

they express them to me or amongst themselves and express them to the 

case agent or express them to -- 

Q Well, did any of them express a concern to you that they were 

being prohibited from using what they believed were lawful authorities 

to interdict guns? 

A No, I don't have a recollection of that. 

Q So after this email we understand that there was a meeting 

as a follow-up somewhat to this email that Mr. Gillett attended? 

A Yeah. I think, as I read the dating of this, it's saying 

there's a Monday meeting. And this was sent on a Friday, so I think 

there's a Monday meeting, and that's the meeting Mr. Gillett attended. 

Q And what do you recall about that meeting? 

A Talking about, you know, pulling together and working this 

case and that, you know, we got a lot going and we need to work together 

and we're going to have people coming into town and we just all need 

to work together. 

Q And Mr. Gillett didn't say anything at that meeting about 

you guys don't know what walking guns is, I'll tell you what walking 

guns is, or something to that effect? 

A I don't have a specific recollection of that. 

Q Do you have a general recollection of that or something 

similar to it? 

A No. I've seen other people say that, but I don't have a 

recollection of that. 

Q Okay. And so all these people that are saying all these 

493 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
 

 

233 

Celis-Acosta is not going to stop his activity. They would simply 

replace Mr. Patino. 

And if Mr. Patino is replaced, the firearms are still being 

purchased and still being trafficked to the same source, but we're now 

unaware of who that source is, and we need now to re-identify the new 

straw purchaser and how they fit in the organization. 

Q So is it your understanding that arresting Uriel Patino at 

that point in time, April 2010, would have hindered your ability to 

take down the network of straw purchasers? 

A That was a discussion we had with the U.S. attorney and 

amongst ourselves, and that was the general consensus, that taking him 

down wouldn't have brought the organization to an end or to a close. 

Q And that conclusion is based on the fact that straw 

purchasers are easily replaceable? 

A Yes. 

Q And that the violations for straw purchasing aren't 

significant enough to flip defendants in order to go up the chain. 

A Correct. 

Q Now, I think we've spoken about the large number of firearms 

that were involved in this case and that were purchased as part of 

Operation Fast and Furious? 

A Yes. 

Q And, as a result of those purchases, did you notice a spike 

in violence across the border? 

A I don't know. I know from that one email that, you know, 

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235 

Operation Fast and Furious from crossing the border into Mexico. 

A I believe so, yes. 

Q Now, I believe you mentioned that the case began to wind down 

in July and August of 2010? 

A Well, I don't know if the case began to wind down. We made 

the decision to not go after another wire, to take the evidence we had 

amassed thus for and charge the people that we could charge thus far 

with the crimes and the charges we thought we had at that time. 

We still had the loftier goal of going after, you know, the cartels 

or the DTO in Mexico. We hadn't got there at that time, but we made 

the decision not to go further. And that was essentially the, kind 

of, end date or end time of the investigation. 

Q Why did you make that decision at that point in time? 

A Because we were having so much trouble with the phones and 

the flipping of phones and maybe the inability to get a roving wire 

or something. We felt the only way to get the evidence needed to charge 

somebody in Mexico or in a DTO with them being in Mexico and not hands-on 

buying guns and transporting guns by having straws buy the guns and 

having, I guess just for easy safety, mules transport the guns, that 

to get evidence on the person actually doing it we would have to have 

their word, their intercepted communication directing these 

activities. We hadn't gotten there. 

We thought we had certainly made a good effort at getting there, 

but the phone issue was basically overwhelming: the delays, maybe 

through OEO or the U.S. Attorney's Office or whatever; missing the line 

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236 

we wanted to be on maybe by days or hours; being up on some lines but 

not necessarily getting the communication we had hoped to get; and that, 

you know, there has to be an end. You know, I had written an exit 

strategy that said 90 days. This is almost exactly 90 days, from the 

end of April to early August -- maybe it is 100 days. 

But it seemed we had given it a good try and gotten where we had 

gotten. And, certainly, we were going to charge people. Maybe not 

the ultimate goal that we had started with. But in knowing what we 

know now, I think maybe there are still some options open for that. 

Q And at that point in August, the case went to the U.S. 

Attorney's Office to perfect an indictment? 

A Correct. 

Q And you indicated that that process didn't happen as quickly 

as you anticipated it would? 

A Correct. 

Q Can you describe any reasons that you were given from the 

U.S. Attorney's Office for why that didn't happen in the time frame 

that you expected it to? 

A Not really. It was just kind of this delay, that, well, we 

are perfecting the indictment, we are perfecting our evidence, you 

know, we'll indict in September. And then, you know, well, I'm still 

waiting on, you know, maybe some figures from the IRS on the money 

portion, and, you know, when we get those new numbers, we'll indict 

in October. 

And it got to the point where I kind of backed off because I was 

496 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
Exhibit 50 

Exhibit 50 

497 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
HOGR ATF - 002491

498 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
Exhibit 51 

Exhibit 51 

499 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
500 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
HOGR ATF 000904

501 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
Exhibit 52 

Exhibit 52 

502 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
1 

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY 

 

COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM, 

U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 

INTERVIEW OF: KENNETH MELSON 

Monday, July 4, 2001 

Washington, D.C. 

The interview in the above matter was held in Room 

503 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
2 

2154, Rayburn House Office Building, commencing at 10:15 

a.m. 

504 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
3 

Appearances: 

For the COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM: 

STEVE CASTOR, CHIEF COUNSEL, INVESTIGATIONS 

JESSICA LAUX, COUNSEL 

CARLTON DAVIS, OFFICE OF CHAIRMAN ISSA 

SCOTT LINDSAY, MINORITY COUNSEL 

JUSTIN S. KIM, MINORITY COUNSEL 

DONALD K. SHERMAN, MINORITY COUNSEL 

For the SENATE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE MINORITY STAFF: 

JASON FOSTER, CHIEF INVESTIGATIVE COUNSEL 

BRIAN DOWNEY, INVESTIGATOR, OFFICE OF SENATOR GRASSLEY 

For the WITNESS: 

RICHARD CULLEN, ESQ. 

McGUIRE WOODS, LLP 

505 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
4 

 

 

Richmond, VA 23219-4030 

506 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
17 

one of our Texas divisions, was going back home. So they 

asked me to do that, and at the same time, they moved 

Marshall Jarrett from the head of OPR over to EOUSA. 

 I took over the helm at ATF at a time in which there 

was significant controversy and inability, I think, to run 

itself as a business. And therefore, when I got there, I 

began to institute a number of changes proactively to make 

sure that ATF could run as efficiently and effectively as it 

could be. It was very stove-piped at the time with its 

various directorates. They weren't communicating with each 

other or among each other and decisions were being made that 

were contrary to decisions being made in other parts of the 

directorate. So I reformatted our entire structure, and 

moved our SES individuals around to put them in the best 

seat with respect to those directorates. 

 We did things that were unprecedented, such as 

bringing in a subject matter expert for the chief 

information officer instead of using an 1811, which is a law 

enforcement officer out of the ranks. I appointed a non1811 subject matter expert for our office of management, and 

we are now interviewing for a person to head our newly 

formed human resources and professional development 

507 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
23 

illegal side, the more we get pushed back from the industry 

side, and it's challenged in that way, yes, in enforcing the 

laws. 

 Q Have you received positive feedback from Department 

management about your initiatives within ATF. 

 A I guess I would -- 

 Q Is there a recognition. 

 A -- I guess I would have to say not necessarily, 

because I don't know that they are necessarily aware of the 

things we have done. We meet monthly with the Deputy 

Attorney General, the DAG, and we try to explain some of 

those things to them. I'm not sure they're interested in 

that type of perhaps minutia in an organization like ours. 

 Q You have made clear to -- I guess you have worked 

for three DAGs now, is that fair to say? Mr. Ogden, Mr. 

Grindler -- 

 A Three DAGs in this Administration, yes. 

 Q And Mr. Cole. Did you brief Mr. Ogden, Mr. 

Grindler and Mr. Cole about the various -- 

 A Yes. 

 Q -- management initiatives. 

 A Yes. And perhaps not all at one time, because some 

508 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
24 

of them were seriatim. So -- 

 Q In the course of explaining that, you have received 

some feedback that that was the type of management that they 

were looking for. 

 A I received no feedback that it was not. They 

acknowledged what I did, but didn't opine on it too much. 

 Q What is ATF's reporting relationship with the DAG? 

Are there regular meetings that you have. 

 A Yes. The DAG is my direct supervisor. And so we 

have a person on -- in ODAG, the Office of the Deputy 

Attorney General who is assigned to our portfolio, and that 

is the person with whom we have the most direct contact in 

trying to develop initiatives or getting things approved, 

personnel issues or demand letter 3, or whatever it is. 

 But in addition to that, we have a monthly meeting 

with the DAG, which is usually a half an hour to 45 minutes, 

and we brief him on the issues that are coming to the top at 

ATF. Oftentimes the cases that we are doing that are 

significant, or the issues that we may have on the 

regulatory side, like the Airsoft gun issue and others, so 

that they were not caught by surprise if an issue pops out 

in the press. 

509 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
29 

firsthand knowledge of someone speaking with Faith Burton, 

but we were in touch. 

 Q So you received a letter from Senator Grassley, put 

your head together with Mr. Hoover and Mr. Chait and you 

were getting ready to go brief Senator Grassley. 

 A Well, we weren't getting ready, we were floating 

the idea and asking them to allow us to do that. We have had 

good relationships with our members of Congress, and we have 

done a lot of briefings on various ATF initiatives and so 

forth, and this was nothing other than that. 

 The pushback from the Department was that it pertained 

to an ongoing criminal case, and certainly concerns about 

releasing information on an ongoing criminal case is a 

serious concern and has to be treated with sensitivity, but 

we thought that we could go over and brief him. I don't 

know that he would have needed to know exact names, dates 

and places of transactions, but to understand the scope of 

Fast and Furious and what it was and so forth would have 

ameliorated the response that Congress has come out with. 

 Q And what was the feedback that you received from 

OLA or the DAG's office. 

 A The feedback is the same feedback that was 

510 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
30 

encompassed by Senator Grassley and others, and it is a 

longstanding policy at the Department of Justice that we 

don't talk about ongoing cases for a number of reasons that 

were set forth in previous memos from the Office of Legal 

Counsel and Attorneys General concerning the Department's 

interaction with Congress. 

 This case is a little different, because you are 

actually investigating looking at an investigation, as 

opposed to looking at subject matters which might 

tangentially impact an investigation. This was about an 

investigation itself and you can hardly investigate or 

discuss that without getting into some issues that impact 

the case. 

 Q I will represent to you that the Department came 

and briefed our staff in May. 

 A Yes. And that was in May. And in conjunction with 

ATF. Matt Axelrod. 

 Q Mr. Hoover and Mr. Axelrod came in, and it was a 

sense by then that this was a case that perhaps warranted 

some congressional oversight. I think the terminology 

shared with us was that maybe there is a there there. And I 

wonder if you recall at what point the Justice Department 

511 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
31 

realized that indeed this was a matter worthy of 

congressional interest. 

 A Well, I don't know that I can say precisely when 

they thought it was of congressional interest. I might 

characterize it, and I hope I'm not going too far abroad, 

but I think they were doing more damage control than 

anything. 

 My view is that the whole matter of the Department's 

response in this case was a disaster. That as a result, it 

came to fruition that the committee staff had to be more 

aggressive and assertive in attempting to get information 

from the Department, and as a result, there was more adverse 

publicity towards ATF than was warranted if we had 

cooperated from the very beginning. And a lot of what they 

did was damage control after a while. Their position on 

things changed weekly and it was hard for us to catch up on 

it, but it was very clear that they were running the show. 

 Mr. Castor. I'm going to mark an Exhibit. 

[Exhibit No. 1 was for identification.] 

 BY MR. CASTOR: 

 Q Exhibit number 1 is marked, it's a letter dated 

February 4 from the Justice Department Assistant Attorney 

512 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
36 

ROIs and everything, but missed the smoking guns. 

 I decided to have confidence that we've looked at 

everything, that I would read them all. So sitting on the 

plane, reading the wiretap affidavit and one of the wiretap 

affidavits -- in fact, I think more than one, there was a 

statement in there prepared by the agents -- the AUSA and 

reviewed by the Criminal Division that suggested there was 

probable cause to believe that straw purchasers were taking 

guns across the border. 

 Because they set out in the affidavit the various -- 

the various border crossings of the straw purchasers. These 

were not observed border crossings. ATF did not know they 

were crossing the border ahead of time. These were from 

CBP's, the Custom and Border Protection database. We could 

go back and see when people go and come north because there 

is no southbound transactional record. 

 But it was apparent to me that they were suggesting 

that there was probable cause to believe that this 

information -- that these straw purchasers were taking guns 

across the border. So while on the plane, I drafted an email to our people, and said, you know, you better back off, 

you better back off this statement, because -- the statement 

513 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
37 

in this letter, this February 4th letter to Senator 

Grassley, because I don't believe we can say that in light 

of the information that our agent was swearing to before a 

federal district court judge to get the wiretap. 

 There was also some conversation -- I tried to find 

the e-mail last night from home, but I couldn't access it. 

What I had printed out didn't seem to have printed out 

completely, but I think there was also conversation with 

Matt in that regarding -- because there was something I 

would say, well, look at page X, Y, and Z. But that was 

well after this fact right here. 

 With respect to the second sentence, "ATF makes every 

effort to interdict weapons." Of course, that is what our 

mission is in ATF, is to interdict weapons. And while in 

Fast and Furious, there were ways that they could have 

slowed down the number of guns being purchased or perhaps 

dissuaded straw purchasers to purchase weapons, they, I 

think -- and I think the people who drafted this would have 

thought that under the investigative strategy, they did try 

to interdict weapons, even though they didn't take them 

between the store and a defendant's home, they knew they 

went to the home, but had, according to the U.S. Attorney, 

514 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
55 

apparently had some view as to what they could present to 

their court to get a conviction and what couldn't be 

presented to their court. 

 So this case was done very -- was investigated closely 

with the U.S. Attorney's office. Remember we have David 

Voth who became a supervisor and entered on duty in Phoenix 

on December 6, 2009. He is an inexperienced agent. 

MacAllister is a relatively new agent. I am sure that they 

were influenced by the direction they were given both by the 

ASAC George Gillett and by the U.S. Attorney's office. 

Nevertheless, they should have had perhaps other views as to 

the propriety of what they were doing. But it is a multiagency investigation. 

 Mr. Castor. Okay. I think I am about 7 minutes over 

here. So we will -- 

 Mr. Melson. I have until 9:15. That's when the 

fireworks start. 

 Mr. Lindsay. Let's take a short break and return on 

the record. 

 [Recess is taken at 11:28 a.m.] 

 BY MR. LINDSAY: 

 Q Okay. It is 11:37 a.m. and we are back on the 

515 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
64 

entirety on that. 

 I think early on, if there had been an awareness of 

not just the number of guns, but the number of guns that a 

single person purchased, and that we were watching the guns 

being purchased by them, I think we would have taken a 

different approach on it, and would have approached Patino 

and at the risk of putting the investigation in danger at 

least stopped his multiple purchases that continued on and 

on and on for a significant period of time. 

 It -- you know, that would have to have been a 

judgment made at the time, if we were alerted to it, but 

nevertheless that was a judgment made by the Phoenix 

supervisors and the U.S. Attorney's office, that this should 

continue in that vein because we didn't have sufficient 

evidence to prosecute those individuals at the time. And 

that's a legal decision. That's a lawyer's decision, a 

prosecutor's decision. It's not a street agent's decision 

to tell the U.S. Attorney when we've got enough for a case. 

I know they oftentimes have opinions on it, but the final 

arbiter of that decision is made by the U.S. Attorney. 

 Does that answer your question. 

 Q Sure. It's a start. So let's explore that a 

516 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
72 

 This is an issue that I have been attacking for 

several years, and that is how old our orders are, some 

still referencing Treasury and other places, and I've told 

my SES staff that it's going to be reflected on their 

performance ratings this year if not every single one of 

those orders aren't up to date and reviewed. 

 So we have changed the way we supervise major cases 

from the way it was before, where it was just if major case 

funds were being expended, then apparently field ops would 

look at it, now we are coming up with a guideline as to when 

a case is a case that needs to have more direct headquarters 

supervision, and more headquarters awareness of these cases, 

so that we can stop some of this stuff if there is an errant 

approach to investigations. 

 In addition, we are trying to develop a policy with 

respect to when we let guns go to a purchaser, and what the 

different types of situations are. We had the Southwest 

border SACs and intel people in, I think it was just last 

week -- it may have been the week before -- I lose track of 

time, for the purpose of reviewing our strategy and tactics 

in these cases. We have come up with a delineation of when 

guns are to leave our custody and control, or to be 

517 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
75 

 Q When did you first become aware of operation Fast 

and Furious, previously named the Jacob Chambers case. 

 A Well, that's hard to say, because it could have 

come up in conversation at any point in time, but there was 

a briefing on the Fast and Furious case on December 9, 2009. 

That's when our office -- our OSII which is the intelligence 

branch put together a briefing for us on the -- primarily 

the seizures that were occurring in Mexico, somewhat unclear 

to us was that many of the seizures had weapons coming from 

Fast and Furious. 

 But I had e-mailed Lanny Breuer, on December 6, 2009, 

the day that Voth came on the job in Mexico -- I mean, in 

Phoenix, and asked him to come over and be briefed on some 

of these cases, so that perhaps his people, his prosecutors 

could help us develop a case. Because this is my view, we 

have got all these seizures across the border, and in each 

of these seizures, there are guns from different sources in 

the United States. So there's got to be some connection. 

If you have three different seizures and Fast and Furious is 

here and here and John Doe is here and here and there, 

there's got to be some connection with these people. 

 So we ought to be developing a multi-division, multi518 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
76 

U.S. Attorney district case on all this. Get the intel from 

all these seizures, bring it together, develop the case and 

take it down. So I obviously couldn't do it, so I wanted 

Lanny Breuer to do it. Lanny Breuer became very active in 

the Southwest border plans and implementation. He worked on 

the Merida initiative, with the four pillars of the Merida 

initiative. We briefed him on what we were doing in Mexico. 

We have briefed him on Fast and Furious. So he was a 

partner with us in a lot of what we were doing along the 

Southwest border as well as in Mexico. 

 And there were one or two times that he and I went 

down there together. So on that date that I mentioned 

previously in December 6 -- I should remember that, it's a 

significant date for me -- I e-mailed him and on December 9, 

I had the first briefing on Fast and Furious. And these were 

primarily, though, surrounding the Douglas, what we call the 

Douglas seizure. 

 Then on December 17th, there was a briefing again by 

our intel section on the Reynoso seizure and the Phoenix 

Fast and Furious case. Now, this was just December 17, so 

it was early in the investigation. But Kevin Carlisle, who 

is the supervisor in the Criminal Division, I think he was 

519 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
77 

in charge of gang cases, I think -- I'm not 100 percent sure 

and Joe Cooley who was one of the trial attorneys came over 

to be briefed on it as well, in anticipation of them working 

this whole spectrum of seizures that were across the border. 

 Q So at that time, with respect to Fast and Furious 

only, what did you understand the strategy to be? This is 

December of 2009. 

 A Well, it wasn't so much what we understood as a 

strategy. Because I don't believe -- and you know, this is 

a long time ago -- that the purpose of it was the strategy 

as much as the linking of various seizures in Mexico to the 

gun trafficking groups in the U.S. 

 So there was not a discussion, I don't recall, that 

talked about how the case was going to be investigated -- 

Fast and Furious in particular with respect to, were guns 

going to be observed being purchased and so forth. As I 

said, this was early on. 

 Nevertheless, we had the participation of the Criminal 

Division in that briefing, and what I hoped to be in that 

whole case. In fact, they did send a prosecutor to Phoenix 

who worked on other ATF gun cases concurrently with what was 

going on in Fast and Furious. And as you recall, the press 

520 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
82 

get out, and they worked, I assume with the U.S. Attorneys, 

on a strategy to get out. 

 Q How regularly did you receive briefings that 

touched upon Fast and Furious following December of 2009. 

 A Well, the -- I received -- I think there were maybe 

-- let me check. I think there were maybe two briefings 

that I received on Fast and Furious. The one was in 

December 17, and one was in December 9. And then on March 

11, there was an abbreviated briefing. That's when Voth 

came up and had a meeting and briefed Chait, Hoover, 

McMahon, and our Southwest border guru by the name of 

Rowley. So there were three times I was briefed generally 

on Fast and Furious. 

 After it got into July or so and the exit strategy had 

been completed, almost every Monday when we had our staff 

meetings, I asked Chait what's the status of the case? Now 

it's the end of August, now it's the beginning of September, 

now it's the middle of September. They told us they were 

going to get an indictment. Now it's November and now it's 

December. And it keeps getting pushed. I offered to send 

our own lawyers out there to get this case indicted. In 

fact, I offered to go out and do the indictment myself. 

521 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
110 

 So I asked the IG to look at the interagency sharing 

of information. One of the things we had asked the 

Department to help us with in 2009 and part of 2010 was to 

promote our entrance into the intelligence community, the 

ICE, and we thought that was very important because there is 

information that we are missing, whether it be based upon 

information from national security assets or information 

received, what they call behind the wall or behind the 

curtain down in Mexico City at our embassy. We are excluded 

from a lot of that, and we thought our participation in that 

would benefit not only ATF and gun trafficking, but also our 

information would help the ICE. 

 That wasn't going very far and it wasn't promoted 

sufficiently to get us in. We finally withdrew our request 

because with the budget crunch, we couldn't afford to put 

the personnel into the shop that we would have to create to 

manage the information that would come from the ICE. I 

think if we had been in it, and we had known and therefore 

had access to the information that perhaps other agencies 

had, we could have either shut the operation down because we 

know already who the end game is, or we could have 

dramatically facilitated reaching that goal and then 

522 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
118 

information they give them. I just don't have any -- and 

remember also that there's a different perhaps chain of 

communication, because they deal so much with national 

security cases and national security assets that whatever 

information might have been obtained in that case may have 

gone up through the national security division. 

 Q Okay. 

 A So I don't know what it was and I don't know 

whether they ever briefed the intelligence committee in 

Congress on what they were doing. 

 Q It would seem to us that at whatever point in time 

that deportation and reentry into the United States happens 

would have been an ideal time to loop ATF into this network, 

and this network's relationship to the firearms trafficking 

folks? 

 A It would have made it unnecessary to continue the 

case. 

 Q When you communicated that information, you said 

you communicated it to the DAG's office and also to the IG. 

Was that roughly around the same time period? When was it 

roughly, was it after our hearing or was it before. 

 A No, when we first notified ODAG. 

523 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
172 

 Q -- as to how McMahon got the affidavit. 

 A I would assume that the authority to authorize 

these types of things should be pushed down to the DAD 

because everything can't come up to Chait, and certainly 

Hoover can't handle another thing. I mean, he is just 

overwhelmed with things that are going on in the agency. So 

whether -- so I wouldn't be surprised either if it should 

stay at the DAD level unless there is something 

extraordinary about it that raises a question that you need 

the Assistant Director's approval on. 

 Q Okay. And then the Exhibit 10 was just the exhibit 

that referenced Voth and that had to go through the DAG's 

office. 

 A Well, and let me say this. Again, I don't know of 

any provision that requires these to go to the DAG. I 

wouldn't be surprised if Voth who is a new supervisor, 

hadn't been involved in this process before, got the DAG 

confused with the AAG, which would be the Assistant Attorney 

General for the Criminal Division. So, if he is saying 

that, I would make sure first that he understands the 

difference between the DAG and the AAG. Because I still 

don't think that's the normal process, but I may be wrong. 

524 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
194 

watch Patino buy guns and take 'em to his home, and we have 

the resources to watch it, or we had a tracker in one of the 

guns as we did in the Tohono O'odham Reservation case, and 

we discovered that device was moving and we were able to 

track Patino going to El Paso and we saw him put those or 

deliver those guns to a stash house in El Paso. 

 Well, we made the next leap. We now know not only who 

is purchasing the guns but who is the keeper of the weapons 

for purposes of getting ready to take them across the 

border. Because see what they do, and what they are doing 

in the stash house, is they brought the guns to the stash 

house in El Paso and they wait for an opportunity to take 

them over the border. They look where CBP is doing 

southbound checks and when things all seem to be in the 

clear, then they move them south. 

 So knowing where that stash house is is incredibly 

important for purposes of determining how the guns are 

getting to Mexico, which is probably even more important 

than finding out who's purchasing the weapons. But being 

able to then identify that stash house and keeping it under 

surveillance, we can determine that there are more people 

involved in taking guns to that stash house than just 

525 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
Exhibit 53 

Exhibit 53 

526 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
HOGR ATF - 002395

527 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
HOGR ATF - 002396

528 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
HOGR ATF - 002397

529 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
Exhibit 54 

Exhibit 54 

530 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
531 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
532 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
533 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
Exhibit 55 

Exhibit 55 

534 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
535 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
Exhibit 56 

Exhibit 56 

536 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
HOGR ATF - 002106

537 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
HOGR ATF - 002107

538 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
Exhibit 57 

Exhibit 57 

539 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
540 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
541 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
Exhibit 58 

Exhibit 58 

542 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
HOGR ATF - 001914

543 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
Exhibit 59 

Exhibit 59 

544 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
545 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
HOGR ATF - 001916

546 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
547 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
HOGR ATF - 001918

548 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
Exhibit 60 

Exhibit 60 

549 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
550 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
551 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
Exhibit 61 

Exhibit 61 

552 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
HOGR ATF - 001962

553 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
554 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
HOGR ATF - 001964

555 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
Exhibit 62 

Exhibit 62 

556 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
HOGR ATF - 002277

557 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
HOGR ATF - 002278

558 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
Exhibit 63 

Exhibit 63 

559 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
560 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
561 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
562 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
Exhibit 64 

Exhibit 64 

563 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
564 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
565 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
566 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
HOGR ATF - 001439

567 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
Exhibit 65 

Exhibit 65 

568 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
569 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
570 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
Exhibit 66 

Exhibit 66 

571 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
572 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
Exhibit 67 

Exhibit 67 

573 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
574 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
Exhibit 68 

Exhibit 68 

575 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
HOGR ATF - 002217

576 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
Exhibit 69 

Exhibit 69 

577 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
578 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
Exhibit 70 

Exhibit 70 

579 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
580 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
Exhibit 71 

Exhibit 71 

581 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
582 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
583 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
584 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
585 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
586 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
587 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
Exhibit 72 

Exhibit 72 

588 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
589 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
590 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
591 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
592 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
593 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
Exhibit 73 

Exhibit 73 

594 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
HOGR ATF - 001339

595 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
Exhibit 74 

Exhibit 74 

596 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
597 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
Exhibit 75 

Exhibit 75 

598 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
599 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
Exhibit 76 

Exhibit 76 

600 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
HOGR ATF - 001912

601 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
HOGR ATF - 001913

602 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
Exhibit 77 

Exhibit 77 

603 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
604 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
Exhibit 78 

Exhibit 78 

605 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
606 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
Exhibit 79 

Exhibit 79 

607 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
608 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
609 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
Exhibit 80 

Exhibit 80 

610 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
611 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
Exhibit 81 

Exhibit 81 

612 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
613 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
Exhibit 82 

Exhibit 82 

614 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
HOGR ATF - 001420

615 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
Exhibit 83 

Exhibit 83 

616 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
HOGR ATF - 002091

617 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
Exhibit 84 

Exhibit 84 

618 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
619 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
620 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
621 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
622 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
HOGR DOJ 002823

623 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
Exhibit 85 

Exhibit 85 

624 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
HOGR ATF - 001981

625 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
Exhibit 86 

Exhibit 86 

626 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
HOGR DOJ 002817

627 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
HOGR DOJ 002818

628 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
629 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
630 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
631 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
632 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
HOGR DOJ 002823

633 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
Exhibit 87 

Exhibit 87 

634 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
 

 

1 

RPTS 

DCMN 

COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND 

GOVERNMENT REFORM, 

U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 

INTERVIEW OF: GARY G. GRINDLER 

Wednesday, December 14, 2011 

Washington, D.C. 

The interview in the above matter was held in 2247, commencing 

at 10:00 a.m.

635 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
 

 

2 

Appearances: 

For the HOUSE COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM: 

STEVE CASTOR, MAJORITY CHIEF COUNSEL, INVESTIGATIONS 

HENRY J. KERNER, MAJORITY SENIOR COUNSEL 

CARLTON DAVIS, COUNSEL TO THE CHAIRMAN 

SCOTT LINDSAY, MINORITY COUNSEL 

CARLOS URIARTE, MINORITY COUNSEL 

For the SENATE COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY: 

JASON A. FOSTER, CHIEF INVESTIGATIVE COUNSEL 

TRISTAN L. LEAVITT, INVESTIGATIVE COUNSEL 

ROB DONOVAN, COUNSEL 

BRIAN M. DOWNEY, INVESTIGATOR 

For U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE: 

DAN ROLLINS, DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE 

STEVEN F. REICH, ASSOCIATE DEPUTY ATTORNEY GENERAL 

M. FAITH BURTON, SPECIAL COUNSEL, OFFICE OF LEGISLATIVE AFFAIRS 

636 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
 

 

42 

A That's correct. They're selecting items that they want to 

discuss with me. 

Q Just generally speaking, over the course of 2010, how often 

would discussions of specific cases come up in those monthly meetings 

versus general discussions of policy issues or management issues other 

things of that nature? 

A It just varied. There have been discussions about 

investigations and it just varies month to month. 

Q What issues did you expect ATF to bring to your attention 

as opposed to handle themselves? What issues would arise, generally 

speaking, to the level of ATF needing to bring those matters to the 

Deputy Attorney General's attention? 

A Well, part of it is their judgment about whether they think 

that there are problems or success stories that they want to talk to 

me about. There are other issues that have been reoccurring that 

reflect decisions that have to be made by the Deputy Attorney General's 

office. If there's a decision that they don't have authority to make, 

where I would, then I would expect them, of course, to bring them up 

to me so I would get grounding in what that decision is. And there 

are -- I mean, it's just a variety of administrative and other issues 

that arise from time to time. 

Q I would like to turn your attention back to Exhibit 1, which 

was the briefing paper provided by ATF at the March 12, 2010, meeting, 

along with an agenda, your notes, and the notes of an unidentified third 

person appended at the end. 

637 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
 

 

43 

On the first page, with the agenda, did you ask ATF to bring up 

the Phoenix case -- Update on a Significant Firearms Trafficking 

Case -- or was that introduced on the agenda by ATF, to your knowledge? 

A I did not ask them. To my knowledge, they put it on the 

agenda. 

Q And to the best of your recollection, who else attended this 

meeting? 

A My recollection is -- Acting Director Melson and Billy 

Hoover attended, I believe, all of the monthly meetings. Sometimes 

they would bring someone else. So there may have been someone else 

at this meeting. I just don't recall. From my office I believe Ed 

Siskel and Mark Michalic were there. It's possible that Lisa Monaco 

was there, my principal deputy, but I just don't recall. 

Q And you previously stated that the total meeting, roughly, 

to the best of your recollection, may have lasted 45 minutes, or at 

least that would have been typical? 

A That's typical. That's what it is scheduled for. 

Q And to the best of your recollection, if there were seven 

agenda items listed for that day, how long was the discussion of the 

Fast and Furious case? 

A I just don't know. It would just be an estimate on my part. 

Q So you don't have any -- what do you recall about what they 

briefed you at that time about Fast and Furious? 

A As I said before, I really don't have a recollection beyond 

what's set forth in my notes and in the PowerPoint itself. 

638 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
Exhibit 88 

Exhibit 88 

639 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
640 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
Exhibit 89 

Exhibit 89 

641 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
642 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
643 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
644 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
645 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
Exhibit 90 

Exhibit 90 

646 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
647 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
Exhibit 91 

Exhibit 91 

648 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
HOGR ATF - 001681

649 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
Exhibit 92 

Exhibit 92 

650 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
651 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
1

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LAWRENCE ALT 04/27/2011

ARIZONA REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (602)

www. Phoenix, AZ

2

INDEX TO EXAMINATIONS

WITNESS PAGE

LAWRENCE ALT

Examination by Mr. Castor 8

Examination by Mr. Lindsay 61 

Examination by Mr. Sherman 102 

Examination by Mr. Foster 107 

Further Examination by Mr. Castor 117

Further Examination by Mr. Foster 145

Further Examination by Mr. Castor 150

Further Examination by Mr. Lindsay 155

Further Examination by Mr. Sherman 167

Examination by Ms. Bertrand 172

Examination by Mr. Kerner 182

Further Examination by Mr. Foster 192

Further Examination by Mr. Castor 201

Further Examination by Mr. Foster 209

652 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
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LAWRENCE ALT 04/27/2011

ARIZONA REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (602)

www. Phoenix, AZ

23

I don't know verbatim the content of the e-mail, 

I didn't memorize it, but in general it refers to there 

is a schism, which I interpreted as being some division 

within the group, people weren't getting along. There 

was going to be a meeting on Monday. There was a 

reference to if people didn't like what they were doing, 

they could, I guess, go work somewhere else. And I 

think the content is public knowledge, but I don't want 

to get into quoting it.

I contacted David Voth after I read the e-mail

and basically said, you know, what is going on, what is 

the story here. He essentially said I didn't 

necessarily need to be present for the meeting, but I 

could be if I wanted to. And I indicated that no, I 

was, I was coming in as what I believe to be the most 

senior grade 13 in the room and any group, and that I 

wanted to see what was going on. So I came into, I 

guess, the meeting on Monday morning. 

Q. And what are your recollections as you sit here 

today of that meeting? 

A. There was clearly a division in the group. It 

started the conversation. The meeting was initiated by 

Dave Voth. And I am not going to quote him, but the 

context of the conversation was, you know, we need to 

fix this, we have people coming in from various parts of 

653 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
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LAWRENCE ALT 04/27/2011

ARIZONA REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (602)

www. Phoenix, AZ

29

office, did you find out anything else about tactics 

that were going on in the field or -- 

A. Not initially. One of the things that did 

happen -- and I need to go back to them. I would like 

to go back to the meeting if I can. 

Q. Of course. 

A. One of the things that happened at that meeting 

was there was a conversation, I guess this would be 

tactics in the field. Conversation went on to talk 

about there was an accusation that Lee Casa and John 

Dodson were in a, quote, beating, I think it was beating 

up of the FFLs with their badges, beating them up with 

badges. And it is an expression. You know, maybe they 

were.

In the course, the schism was revolving around 

the idea of strategies, how you approach the firearms 

licensee. And John and Lee had approached apparently a 

firearms licensee prior to getting there and I guess 

exercised their authority to some degree to gain some 

compliance of federal firearms licensee. And there was 

some pushback from, I guess, Hope McAllister and Tanya 

English in that regard.

And that's what I witnessed in the schism 

meeting. So I guess it would go to strategy in the 

field.

654 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
Exhibit 93 

Exhibit 93 

655 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
656 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
1

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JOHN DODSON 04/26/2011

ARIZONA REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (602)

www. Phoenix, AZ

2

INDEX TO EXAMINATIONS

WITNESS PAGE

JOHN DODSON

Examination by Mr. Castor 14

Examination by Mr. Sherman 65 

Examination by Mr. Foster 106 

Further Examination by Mr. Castor 123

Further Examination by Mr. Foster 147

Further Examination by Mr. Sherman 158

Further Examination by Mr. Foster 159

Further Examination by Mr. Castor 165

657 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
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JOHN DODSON 04/26/2011

ARIZONA REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (602)

www. Phoenix, AZ

44

So now to get to your question, when we voiced 

our concerns to Group Supervisor Voth, originally it 

started as when I would talk to Voth myself, Casa would 

talk to Voth. Then we would talk to him together. It 

came to the point where Casa and I, and I am not sure if 

Alt was in the group yet at this point or not, but we 

went to him formally, hey, this is -- we have problems 

with this, this is going to end bad, we need to do 

something about it.

Then we get an e-mail that George -- there is 

going to be a meeting. Assistant Special Agent in 

Charge George Gillett is coming down, George Gillett 

comes into the Group 7 office and tells us essentially 

we better stand down with our complaints, that we didn't 

know what the definition of walking guns was, we weren't 

familiar with the Phoenix way of doing things, that all 

of this was sanctioned and we just needed to essentially 

shut up and get in line. That's not a quote, but that's 

the feel of the meeting, so... 

Q. Do you remember approximately when that 

occurred?

A. It was right after we went to the Group 7 

building, so it had to be late February, early 

March 2010. 

Q. Okay. 

658 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
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JOHN DODSON 04/26/2011

ARIZONA REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (602)

www. Phoenix, AZ

45

A. So when you already have the ASAC come down and 

tell you shut up, we are not going to listen to your 

complaints, there is -- it is kind of hard to reapproach 

him with the same complaint.

Q. And you talked about -- you used the word 

schism, which obviously comes up in some e-mails that 

have been publicized. Were there any -- as we have 

discussed it here, it was special agent in charge, the 

assistant special agent in charge, the group supervisor,

and two lead case agents on one side of the schism, and 

on the other side of the schism it was the special 

agents like yourself.

Were there any other special agents that were 

similarly situated to yourself, to Special Agent Alt, to 

Special Agent Medina, that were on the side of the 

schism that thought that what -- 

A. Yes, sir. I have yet to speak to a rank and 

file enforcement agent that is of the same mind-set as 

the individuals you just named, McAllister up to Newell.

Q. Can you recollect a time when you were 

conducting surveillance on an FFL and you saw firearms 

being loaded into a car when you said to your colleague

we got to go, we got to go seize this now, I understand

the direction we have been given, but this is bad stuff, 

these are bad people, we need to go just -- 

659 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
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JOHN DODSON 04/26/2011

ARIZONA REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (602)

www. Phoenix, AZ

92

suspect beats you in a foot chase and he gets away, you 

didn't let him walk, you just lost the chase. So that's 

what walking is. 

When ASAC George Gillett came down to our 

office, he really didn't -- and this happened a lot in 

Phoenix, is that most of our concerns or questions 

weren't addressed directly. The attitude and the 

mentality was that they didn't need to be addressed. We 

just needed to do what we were told.

And so when ASAC Gillett came down, we were told 

you don't know what walking is, we are not walking guns.

And that's pretty much the extent of the debate, because

in Phoenix there is very little debating one of the 

ASACs or the SAC. So it was, you know, a declaration, 

you don't know what walking guns is, we are not walking 

guns, this is all okay.

Q. There wasn't any explanation provided by ASAC 

Gillett as to what he specifically meant? 

A. Not that I recall, no, sir. And if you talk to 

many people in Phoenix you are probably going to see 

that as a common theme, that there is very little 

explanations offered. 

Q. Now, when Mr. Castor was asking you questions, I 

believe you made reference to approximately 2,000 guns 

entering Mexico. Do you recall that? 

660 Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
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JOHN DODSON 04/26/2011

ARIZONA REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (602)

www. Phoenix, AZ

110

of the picture right now, so the guy -- or girl -- the 

person you're up on the T-III on, he has some explaining

to do. He owes somebody some money, he needs to explain 

why somebody isn't where they are supposed to be when 

they are supposed to be there. He needs to explain to 

somebody why this happened and when. All right? Tickle 

the wire.

That's why you -- it is just a tool. It is not 

the end all, be all. You can't go up on a wire and sit 

back and push the TiVo button and have your case solved 

for you. You need to be out there and do those bread 

and butter things that as cops, as case agents, as law 

enforcement, we have to do. All right?

I got dinged on my evaluation because it said I 

was too adherent to those old staples of law 

enforcement, like surveillance, undercover, informant, 

things like that. And my argument is I will take that 

lump with pride, because those staples are staples for a 

reason, they work. It is what we do. It is how you 

investigate crimes. 

Q. So was it your impression from your 

conversations with Mr. Voth or Ms. McAllister or others 

there when you, when you got here in Phoenix that they 

took the other view, that they -- that the goal that 

they were working toward was to get the T-III and they 

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JOHN DODSON 04/26/2011

ARIZONA REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (602)

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Directive 3310.4, and that the relevant part of it is 

Section 148 sub (a)(2). I am just going to read that 

into the record.

In other cases immediate intervention may not be 

needed or desirable, and the special agent may choose to 

allow the transfer of firearms to take place in order to 

further an investigation and allow for the 

identification of additional co-conspirators who would 

have continued to operate and illegally traffic firearms 

in the future, potentially producing more armed crime.

Is that the order that you were referring to 

earlier that you said you are familiar with?

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And just so we are clear on what your 

understanding of the order was, and we can all obtain it 

and read it and have our own understanding of it, but 

what were you taught about what that means? 

A. That that implies when the straw purchaser makes 

the purchase at the counter, you don't have to land on 

them right there at the counter or as soon as he walks 

out the door, that it is okay to allow it to happen, to 

allow him to go with that gun under your surveillance to 

the ultimate purchaser of it or whom he is delivering it 

to, or if he is taking it to a gang or a stash house or 

whomever, it is okay to allow it to happen, to go there, 

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JOHN DODSON 04/26/2011

ARIZONA REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (602)

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122

to be delivered. But you don't get to go home. You get 

the gun, is my understanding, what I have been taught 

and how in every other ATF office not only that I have 

been in but that I have gone like TDY to work at that 

that policy is implemented. 

Q. So, in other words, your understanding is that 

there is a temporal or time limitation on how long it 

can be allowed to continue on its course without you 

intervening.

A. I think it is not so much time as it is 

availability of eyes on. Like if I get an agent that's 

on the house and we know that gun is on the house, 

that's still okay. You know, even if it is overnight, 

on to the next night, the gun and bad guy are still 

there. We are just waiting on the guy he is supposed to 

deliver it to to come by and pick it up. 

Q. Well, the beginning of it said in other cases 

immediate intervention may not be needed or desirable.

A. Correct. 

Q. So are you saying that, in other words, 

intervention, that doesn't mean no intervention ever? 

A. Correct. 

Q. Just the intervention doesn't have to happen 

right now, but intervention does need to occur, that's 

your understanding?

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JOHN DODSON 04/26/2011

ARIZONA REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (602)

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A. Yes, sir, that it is not as soon as the FFL 

hands the straw purchaser the gun, that's it, you can't 

let him leave the store with it. 

Q. It is not a license to forego intervention at 

all?

A. Correct. 

MR. FOSTER: That's all I have. 

FURTHER EXAMINATION

BY MR. CASTOR:

Q. Would it surprise you -- I mentioned a little 

bit before if confidential witnesses call us up, call 

our whistle blower hotline, reach out with us, we want 

to work with them, obtain any information they have and 

we keep their, the fact that they reached out to us 

anonymous. Obviously it is hard to use too much 

information without sharing documents with our 

colleagues in the minority. But would it surprise you 

if other special agents that worked in Group 7 were 

interested in communicating with the committee staff and 

interested in cooperating with our investigation?

A. No, sir, not at all. 

Q. And would it surprise you if some of those 

people who are interested in cooperating with the 

committee staff, want to be part of the investigation,

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JOHN DODSON 04/26/2011

ARIZONA REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (602) 274-9944

www.az-reporting.com Phoenix, AZ

135

communication that you had with him? 

A. Not at this time. I don't want to make any 

decision for him.

Q. Okay. 

A. You know what I mean?

Q. Would it surprise you if some of these FFLs were 

interested in cooperating with Congress? 

A. No, sir. No, that would not surprise me. 

Q. And would it surprise you if some of these FFLs 

were interested in receiving a subpoena from Congress to 

facilitate their cooperation? 

A. No, sir, that wouldn't surprise me at all. 

Q. And speaking very generally, not about any 

specific FFL, but do you know whether any FFL has an 

interest in cooperating with Congress?

A. Yes, sir, I do. 

Q. One of the items discussed in the CBS news piece 

related to somebody in management, and by management I 

mean whether it is the group supervisor or Mr. Gillett 

used the terminology scramble some eggs.

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. If you are going to make an omelette you have 

got to scramble some eggs. Do you remember the context 

of that? 

A. Yes, sir. It was -- there was a prevailing 

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JOHN DODSON 04/26/2011

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attitude amongst the group and outside of the group in 

the ATF chain of command, and that was the attitude.

And although there were several times where that saying, 

that metaphor was used, I can't give you a specific date 

and time that it, you know, to quote it, that it was 

used.

However, I had heard that, you know, sentiment 

from Special Agent English, Special Agent McAllister, 

and Special Agent Voth. And the time referenced in the 

interview was, I want to say, in May as the GRIT team or 

gunrunner initiative team was coming out. I was having 

a conversation with Special Agent McAllister about the 

case in which the conversation ended with me asking her 

are you prepared to go to a border agent's funeral over 

this or a Cochise County deputy's over this, because 

that's going to happen. And the sentiment that was 

given back to me by both her, the group supervisor, was 

that, or along the lines of, if you are going to make an 

omelette, you need to scramble some eggs. 

Q. Along those lines, when did you find out that 

Agent Terry was killed? 

A. I found out December 16th, 2010.

Q. And what can you tell us about your 

recollections of receiving that information? Again, not 

getting into any specific investigation.

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Exhibit 94 

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OLINDO JAMES CASA 04/28/2011

ARIZONA REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (602) 274-9944

www.az-reporting.com Phoenix, AZ

2

INDEX TO EXAMINATIONS

WITNESS PAGE

OLINDO JAMES CASA

Examination by Mr. Castor 16

Examination by Mr. Lindsay 60 

Examination by Mr. Sherman 83 

Examination by Mr. Foster 88

Examination by Mr. Davis 114

Further Examination by Mr. Foster 124

Further Examination by Mr. Davis 126 

Further Examination by Mr. Foster 130 

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OLINDO JAMES CASA 04/28/2011

ARIZONA REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (602)

www. Phoenix, AZ

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interactions with my group supervisor 14 and I have some 

limited interactions with my ASAC who is GS 15. Above 

that it is above my rank and chain of authority, so I 

couldn't really say above that level. 

Q. Fair enough. 

A. So I am sorry, I just want to clarify that. 

Q. In the schism e-mail are you able to identify 

who was on each side of the schism? 

A. Oh, yes. 

Q. And who was that? 

A. Larry, is it okay if I name names?

MR. BERGER: That's okay. I am all right with 

that.

THE WITNESS: Okay. Myself, Larry Alt, John 

Dodson and, to a lesser degree, Jose Medina. He was 

outspoken against it, too, but he was in training and he 

was in -- he is probationary. So the senior agents 

advised him to share his thoughts with us because we 

would be afraid based on the schism e-mail. It wouldn't 

be beyond Dave Voth to fire him or remove him from duty.

It would be very easy for a probationary employee to be 

removed.

On the other hand, the people that didn't 

subscribe to how Larry, John, and I thought would be, of 

course, the author of that e-mail, David Voth; the case 

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OLINDO JAMES CASA 04/28/2011

ARIZONA REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (602)

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agent, Hope McAllister; the co-case agent, Tanya 

English. And there was another individual and he was 

more neutral, he tried not to take sides, and that would 

be Mark Sonnendecker. He didn't really take a side 

either way. 

BY MR. CASTOR:

Q. There was another e-mail from Mr. Voth dated 

April 2nd, 2010 that was also in the same piece, and he 

referenced the number of deaths in Mexico. Do you 

recollect that e-mail? 

A. Sure. 

Q. And he said there was 958 killed in March 2010?

A. Uh-huh. 

Q. 937 in January 2010? 

A. Uh-huh. 

Q. And then the numbers were increasing?

A. Of course. 

Q. And do you know if he was trying to tie, you 

know, the decisions to let the guns get into the hands 

of the straw purchasers to this violence in Mexico? 

A. Again, I don't want to speculate what Dave 

thought or didn't think, but I would say it doesn't take 

a rocket scientist to see the correlation going on. The 

more straw purchasers buying the guns, the more violent 

it got. 

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OLINDO JAMES CASA 04/28/2011

ARIZONA REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (602)

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Q. And is it fair to say that, you know, the folks 

on your side of the schism wanted to do everything they 

could to interdict these weapons so they wouldn't get 

any farther down the street than they have to? 

A. Yes, sir. We were all sick to death when we 

realized that -- when we realized what was going on or 

when we saw what was going on by the trends. We were 

all just, yes, we were all distraught.

Q. And these guns that the suspicious folks were 

obtaining, AK-47s, AK-47 variants, you know, Barrett .50 

calibers, can you think of any other types of weapons 

that were typically in the mix here? 

A. Oh, yes. The cop killers, that's the nickname 

for the FN Five-seveN. It will go through a vest, go 

through a plate in the vest. They are a pistol. It is 

a hot round. It is -- they call it the cop killer. I 

can't think of the Mexican name for it, but there is a 

Spanish -- yes, it is a hot weapon.

The Colt El Jefe, it is a .38 caliber revolver.

There is a Bushmaster, also a cheaper -- it is a cheaper 

version of the Barrett. It is about five grand as 

opposed to ten and it is a .50 caliber. Those 

.50 calibers are very awesome destructive weapons, as 

well as AK, the Dracos. Draco is an AK-47 pistol. 

Q. And you witnessed weapons of this type -- 

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Exhibit 100 

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