U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE

31–274 PDF WASHINGTON : 2018

HOLDING CUBAN LEADERS ACCOUNTABLE 

HEARING 

BEFORE THE

SUBCOMMITTEE ON NATIONAL SECURITY 

OF THE

COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT 

AND GOVERNMENT REFORM 

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 

ONE HUNDRED FIFTEENTH CONGRESS 

SECOND SESSION 

JUNE 20, 2018 

Serial No. 115–87 

Printed for the use of the Committee on Oversight and Government Reform 

( 

Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.fdsys.gov 

http://oversight.house.gov 


KING-6430 with DISTILLER
(II) 

COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM

Trey Gowdy, South Carolina, Chairman 

John J. Duncan, Jr., Tennessee 

Darrell E. Issa, California 

Jim Jordan, Ohio 

Mark Sanford, South Carolina 

Justin Amash, Michigan 

Paul A. Gosar, Arizona 

Scott DesJarlais, Tennessee 

Virginia Foxx, North Carolina 

Thomas Massie, Kentucky 

Mark Meadows, North Carolina 

Ron DeSantis, Florida 

Dennis A. Ross, Florida 

Mark Walker, North Carolina 

Rod Blum, Iowa 

Jody B. Hice, Georgia 

Steve Russell, Oklahoma 

Glenn Grothman, Wisconsin 

Will Hurd, Texas 

Gary J. Palmer, Alabama 

James Comer, Kentucky 

Paul Mitchell, Michigan 

Greg Gianforte, Montana 

Elijah E. Cummings, Maryland, Ranking 

Minority Member 

Carolyn B. Maloney, New York 

Eleanor Holmes Norton, District of Columbia 

Wm. Lacy Clay, Missouri 

Stephen F. Lynch, Massachusetts 

Jim Cooper, Tennessee 

Gerald E. Connolly, Virginia 

Robin L. Kelly, Illinois 

Brenda L. Lawrence, Michigan 

Bonnie Watson Coleman, New Jersey 

Raja Krishnamoorthi, Illinois 

Jamie Raskin, Maryland 

Jimmy Gomez, Maryland 

Peter Welch, Vermont 

Matt Cartwright, Pennsylvania 

Mark DeSaulnier, California 

Stacey E. Plaskett, Virgin Islands 

John P. Sarbanes, Maryland 

SHERIA CLARKE, Staff Director 

WILLIAM MCKENNA, General Counsel 

BRICK CHRISTENSEN, Senior Military Advisor 

KILEY BIDELMAN, Clerk 

DAVID RAPALLO, Minority Staff Director 

SUBCOMMITTEE ON NATIONAL SECURITY

Ron DeSantis, Florida, Chairman 

Steve Russell, Oklahoma, Vice Chair 

John J. Duncan, Jr., Tennessee 

Justin Amash, Michigan 

Paul A. Gosar, Arizona 

Virginia Foxx, North Carolina 

Jody B. Hice, Georgia 

James Comer, Kentucky 

Stephen F. Lynch, Massachusetts, Ranking 

Minority Member 

Peter Welch, Vermont 

Mark DeSaulnier, California 

Jimmy Gomez, California 

John P. Sarbanes, Maryland 

Vacancy 

Vacancy 


KING-6430 with DISTILLER
(III) 

C O N T E N T S 

Page 

Hearing held on June 20, 2018 ............................................................................... 1 

WITNESSES 

Ms. Miriam de la Pen ̃ a, Mother of Hermanos al Rescate Pilot, Mario de 

la Pen ̃a 

Oral Statement ................................................................................................. 6 

Written Statement ............................................................................................ 8 

Ms. Ana Alejandre Ciereszko, Sister of Hermanos al Rescate Pilot, Armando 

Alejandre Jr. 

Oral Statement ................................................................................................. 10 

Written Statement ............................................................................................ 12 

Mr. Jason Poblete, Attorney, Poblete Tamargo LLP 

Oral Statement ................................................................................................. 14 

Written Statement ............................................................................................ 16 

Ambassador Roger Noriega, Visiting Fellow, American Enterprise Institute 

Oral Statement ................................................................................................. 34 

Written Statement ............................................................................................ 36 

William LeoGrande, Ph.D., Associate Vice Provost for Academic Affairs, Department of Government, American University’s School of Public Affairs 

Oral Statement ................................................................................................. 46 

Written Statement ............................................................................................ 48 


KING-6430 with DISTILLER

KING-6430 with DISTILLER
(1) 

HOLDING CUBAN LEADERS ACCOUNTABLE 

Wednesday, June 20, 2018 

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

SUBCOMMITTEE ON NATIONAL SECURITY

COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM

Washington, D.C. 

The subcommittee met, pursuant to call, at 2:07 p.m., in Room 

2247, Rayburn Office Building, Hon. Ron DeSantis [chairman of 

the subcommittee] presiding. 

Present: Representatives DeSantis, Amash, Lynch, and Welch. 

Also present: Representative Ros-Lehtinen. 

Mr. DESANTIS. The Subcommittee on National Security will come 

to order. 

Without objection, the chair is authorized to declare a recess at 

any time. 

We are here today to continue this committee’s oversight into 

U.S. policy towards the Cuban dictatorship. 

Almost 6 months ago, I held a field hearing in Miami to examine 

the Obama administration’s failures with regard to Cuba policy. 

Today we are joined by our fellow citizens who are acutely aware 

of the failures of that policy. Armando Alejandre, Jr.; Pablo Morales; Mario de la Pen ̃ a; and Carlos Costa—these are the names of 

the four men killed in a savage attack by the Castro regime on 

February 24th, 1996. It is my hope that our Department of Justice 

will indict Raul Castro and others responsible for this barbarous 

act. 

Armando, Pablo, Mario and Carlos were flying on a humanitarian mission to help desperate men, women, and children fleeing 

the oppressive Castro regime in makeshift rafts. They were warriors on the front lines of freedom, doing their part in the struggle 

against the evil totalitarian Cuban Government. These brave men, 

flying unarmed, were shot down over international waters by 

Cuban MiGs, a heinous crime that defies comprehension, except we 

are talking about the Castros. These two gangsters took pleasure 

in human rights abuses and spreading chaos throughout the region. 

Unfortunately, our government has failed to hold Cuba’s leaders 

accountable. In fact, under the Obama administration, the United 

States released the men convicted for their role in connection with 

the 1996 attack. One man in particular, Gerardo Hernandez, had 

his wish come true by the Obama administration, which supported 

Hernandez in his quest to impregnate his wife with artificial insemination. It would be laughable if it were not so true, but our 


KING-6430 with DISTILLER
2 

government helped the convicted terrorist get his wife pregnant 

while he sat in federal prison. 

To top it off, Hernandez was then released back to Cuba where 

he received a hero’s welcome. It is sickening and it was and is a 

disgrace. 

We are also here today to talk about what the Trump administration has done with regard to Cuba and what it can do in the 

future because we can do more. We must indict criminals like Raul 

Castro. We can indict them and place economic sanctions on other 

senior officials of the Cuban Government. We can get back the fugitives and cop killers like Joanne Chesimard. 

However, I am deeply concerned that the bureaucracy in the 

State Department is purposely disregarding and undermining 

President Trump’s Cuba policies. We may be seeing the final gasp 

of the holdovers attempting to continue down the failed policy 

course. The President in his speech in Little Havana last June 

made it clear. Quote: we will not lift sanctions on the Cuban regime until all political prisoners are freed, freedoms of assembly 

and expression are respected, all political parties are legalized, and 

free and internationally supervised elections are scheduled. End 

quote. 

I will make sure to follow up with the President, the Secretary 

of State, the National Security Council to ensure that all these 

things happen. This committee will continue to pursue the corrupt 

bureaucrats who obstruct and enable this regime. We owe it to men 

like Armando, Pablo, Mario, and Carlos. We owe it to their loved 

ones. We owe it to those in Cuba who live this nightmare every 

day. 

It is my honor and privilege to have the family members of the 

men murdered on that day in February 1996 here today as a reminder that the fight for justice continues. We will not forget and 

we will continue the fight. 

Today with us testifying about that fight is Miriam de la Pen ̃ a. 

Miriam is the mother of Mario, and we are so honored to have you 

here to testify. We are also grateful that your husband Mario is 

here as well. Thank you and God bless. 

We are also blessed to have Ana Alejandre Ciereszko. Ana is the 

sister of Armando, and again, we are very honored to have you 

here today. I thank you for coming. 

We also have Mr. Jason Poblete, a national security and federal 

regulatory lawyer in private practice, who is an expert in Cuba policy issues and can help us understand what we can do right now 

to take action against Cuba’s leaders. 

Next is Ambassador Roger Noriega, who is caught in traffic and 

also served as Assistant Secretary of State for Western Hemisphere 

Affairs in the Bush administration. Before that, he was the U.S. 

Permanent Representative to OAS, the Organization of American 

States, and he can provide more details about what the regime 

around the region and throughout the world. 

Finally, we have William LeoGrande, Professor of Government 

and Dean of the American University School of Public Affairs. We 

appreciate you being here. 

Thank you so much for being here, all of you. We look forward 

to your testimony. 


KING-6430 with DISTILLER
3 

And with that, I would like to recognize the ranking member of 

the committee, Mr. Lynch, for 5 minutes. 

Mr. LYNCH. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to thank you 

for holding this hearing to examine the state of human rights in 

Cuba. I would also like to thank today’s witnesses for your willingness—for helping the committee with its work. 

Let me begin by expressing my sincere sorrow to the families of 

the four U.S. crew members whose civilian aircraft was shot down 

in 1996 by Cuban fighter jets during a humanitarian service mission with Brothers to the Rescue. Ms. Miriam de la Pen ̃ a, the 

mother of U.S. pilot Mario de la Pen ̃a, and Ms. Ana Alejandre 

Ciereszko, the sister of U.S. pilot Armando Alejandre, are here 

with us today and I thank you both for your willingness and 

strength in offering this subcommittee your important perspectives 

on human rights accountability in Cuba. 

It is clear that the Republic of Cuba remains an authoritarian 

state whose citizens are subjected to the widespread abuse of 

human rights by their government. Over the past decade alone, the 

U.S. State Department has consistently reported serious human 

rights violations that include the use of threats, physical assault, 

detentions, and intimidation by the government as a means of limiting the freedom of expression and peaceful assembly and silencing political opposition. Cuban authorities have also routinely engaged in the monitoring of private communications and limitations 

on freedom of the press. As underscored by the State Department, 

the free exercise of these and other civil liberties is prohibited in 

the Cuban constitution when contrary to, quote, the existence and 

objectives of the socialist state. Closed quote. 

Moreover the government has sought to prevent workers from 

forming independent trade unions and placing stringent restrictions on workers rights. According to the State Department, the 

majority of human rights abuses have been committed at the direction of the Cuban Government with impunity. 

This year witnessed the transition to a new government in Cuba 

with the resignation of President Raul Castro, and selection of the 

Cuba National Assembly of Vice President Miguel Diaz-Canel to 

succeed him as President. While President Castro will remain as 

leader of the Cuban Communist Party throughout 2021, the inauguration of President Diaz-Canel marked the first time since the 

1959 Cuban revolution that a Castro is not leading the government. 

In the midst of this political transition, it is imperative that we 

continue to address the Cuban Government’s repression of human 

rights by building upon the renewed U.S. engagement with Cuba 

that began during the Obama administration and which has been 

left largely intact under President Trump. We must further develop 

a U.S.-Cuba policy that underscores and reflects our longstanding 

commitment to the advancement and protection of international 

and universal human rights. This must include the continuation of 

the bilateral human rights dialogue with Cuban officials that began 

in 2015, as well as meaningful funding for efforts undertaken by 

the U.S. Agency for International Development, State Department, 

and other agencies to support human rights and the development 

of democratic and civil society in Cuba. 


KING-6430 with DISTILLER
4 

While President Trump proposed zeroing out funding for human 

democracy programs for fiscal year 2018, the bipartisan omnibus 

appropriations bill supported by Congress in March ultimately provided $20 million in funding, the same as in fiscal year 2017. 

Our Cuba policy going forward must also work to ensure the 

safety of U.S. diplomatic personnel deployed on the island. In the 

aftermath of the still-unexplained injuries suffered by at least 24 

employees at the U.S. embassy in Havana in November of 2016, 

the State Department ordered the departure of all non-emergency 

embassy personnel and their families to mitigate their exposure to, 

quote, attacks of an unknown nature. Close quote. 

However, in March of this year, the State Department announced 

a permanent staffing plan at U.S. Embassy Havana under which 

the mission will now operate with the minimum personnel necessary to perform core diplomatic and consular functions. We must 

make every effort to keep these personnel safe. 

Mr. Chairman, I look forward to the discussions of these issues 

and other important issues relating to U.S.-Cuba relations with today’s witnesses. 

I yield back the balance of my time. 

Mr. DESANTIS. The gentleman yields back. 

I will now recognize the gentlewoman from Florida, who is no 

stranger to this issue and other issues involving fighting for human 

rights, Ms. Ros-Lehtinen, for an opening statement. 

Ms. ROS-LEHTINEN. Thank you so much, Chairman DeSantis and 

Ranking Member Lynch. Thank you for convening this important 

hearing, for allowing me to join you for the second time this year, 

as we debate U.S. policy toward my native homeland of Cuba. 

I would like to thank our witnesses today, all familiar faces. 

Jason and Roger, thank you for being with us today. Always good 

to see you again. 

Ana and Miriam, thank you for not giving up on your efforts to 

seek justice for Armando and for Mario. You two represent a united 

voice of the surviving families of these Brothers to the Rescue pilots who want nothing more than to hold accountable the Cuban 

regime officials responsible for the murder of these innocent brave 

men. It has been 22 years since that fateful Saturday when three 

U.S. citizens and one U.S. permanent resident, all innocent, unarmed civilians, were brutally killed by the Castro regime for simply trying to aid Cubans escaping Castro’s illegal grip on power. 

Carlos Costa, Mario de la Pen ̃ a, Armando Alejandre, Pablo Morales 

were heroes in the eyes of the American people and to the Cuban 

people. 

22 years later, how has the United States, their country, honored 

the memories of these brave patriots? Well, Ruben Martinez 

Puente, Lorenzo Alberto Perez y Perez, and Francisco Perez y 

Perez, all Cuban regime operatives, have been indicted in our U.S. 

courts for their roles in the murderous Brothers to the Rescue 

shoot-down, but until this day, sadly they have yet to be held accountable. I have urged administration after administration to 

bring these perpetrators to the United States so that they can be 

prosecuted in accordance with our laws and justice for this criminal 

act can be served. 


KING-6430 with DISTILLER
5 

But accountability does not just stop with them. This was an orchestrated attack. And as we know, nothing happens in Cuba without being sanctioned by the Castro regime. And that means Raul 

Castro himself, which is why I urge our U.S. administration and 

our courts to go after Raul Castro for his role in the murderous act. 

The Department of Justice and the Department of State can and 

must indict Raul Castro and all others involved in the shoot-down. 

Yet, each administration since the attack has not moved one inch 

to hold them responsible. Instead, in its pursuit of normalizing relations with the island, the Obama administration made the monumental error of releasing Cuban spy Gerardo Hernandez—and you 

have pointed it out—who was convicted of conspiracy to commit espionage and conspiracy to commit murder for his role in the murder of these brave pilots. 

Mr. Chairman, in a previous hearing we are so happy that you 

held in our hometown of Miami, we have already discussed the 

negative implications of the misguided Cuba policy of the Obama 

administration, giving concession after concession to a murderous 

regime in exchange for nada, zip, zilch, nothing. And to this day, 

that same regime, for it does not matter who leads it, whether it 

is Castro or Diaz-Canel—that same regime that violated international airspace in order to kill Carlos, Mario, Armando, and 

Pablo—it remains as repressive as ever, routinely beating, 

harassing, detaining peaceful protesters and journalists. 

Even as President Obama was visiting the island, the human 

rights abuses remain unchanged, and as our very own State Department’s latest Human Rights Report on Cuba points out, there 

are many, many, many political prisoners in Cuba today. 

I laud Ambassador Nikki Haley for her announcement yesterday 

to withdraw the United States from the U.N. Human Rights Council. Having Cuba serve in the council is a mockery to the mission 

of that institution, an insult to the Cuban people who day after day 

are denied their most basic human rights. 

This administration has taken concrete, positive steps to reverse 

President Obama’s wrongheaded Cuba policy by clamping down on 

economic lifelines to the oppressors and their hand-picked military 

leaders. 

However, it can and must do more so that there is no question 

that this administration truly supports the Cuban people and our 

cherished ideals and values and not seek a rapprochement with the 

dictatorial regime. 

So I look forward to the witnesses today. I thank you for your 

leadership, Mr. Chairman. I want to hear about their recommendations to Congress and to the administration. To the Brothers to the 

Rescue pilots, their families, you will forever be an inspiration to 

those who are willing to endure great sacrifices for the sake of a 

free Cuba. 

Thank you, Mr. Chairman and Mr. Ranking Member. I am honored that you have allowed me to participate. Thank you. 

Mr. DESANTIS. I thank the gentlewoman. 

And I am pleased to introduce our witnesses. We do have, as was 

mentioned, Ms. Miriam de la Pen ̃ a, who is the mother of Brothers 

to the Rescue pilot Mario de la Pen ̃a. Welcome. We have Ms. Ana 

Alejandre Ciereszko, sister of Brothers to the Rescue pilot Armando 


KING-6430 with DISTILLER
6 

Alejandre, Jr. Welcome. We have Mr. Jason Poblete, attorney at 

Poblete Tamargo LLP. Welcome to you. Ambassador Roger 

Noriega, who is now at the American Enterprise Institute. Glad 

you made it through the traffic. It was really bad today because I 

came in about an hour ago and it was a long trip just from the airport. And then Dr. William LeoGrande, Associate Vice Provost for 

Academic Affairs for the Department of Government at American 

University School of Public Affairs. Welcome and welcome to you 

all. 

Pursuant to committee rules, all witnesses will be sworn in before they testify. So if you can please rise and raise your right 

hand. 

[Witnesses sworn.] 

Mr. DESANTIS. Please be seated. 

All witnesses answered in the affirmative. 

In order to allow time for discussion, please limit your testimony 

to 5 minutes. Your entire written statement will be made a part 

of the record. And as a reminder, the clock in front of you shows 

your remaining time. The light will turn yellow when you have 30 

seconds left and red when your time is up. Please also remember 

to press the button to turn your microphone on before speaking and 

to speak into the microphone. 

And right now, I would like to recognize Ms. de la Pen ̃ a for 5 

minutes. 

WITNESS STATEMENTS 

STATEMENT OF MIRIAM DE LA PEN ̃ A 

Ms. DE LA PEN ̃ A. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Good 

afternoon, members of the committee. 

I am Miriam de la Pen ̃ a, and I am here because of the four innocent men from my district of south Florida who were murdered, 

namely, Armando Alejandre, Jr.; Carlos Costa; Pablo Morales; and 

my own son, Mario de la Pen ̃ a. 

Their killers are known, but sadly they remain at large. 

Ambassador Madeleine Albright at the U.N. General Assembly 

on March 6th, 1996, shortly after the shoot-down, described it this 

way, and I quote. The fact is that on February 24th, 1996, the 

Cuban military knowingly, willingly, and in broad daylight shot 

down two aircraft that were unarmed and clearly marked as civilian. As Cuban officials were well aware, these aircraft posed no 

threat to the Cuban people or government. The aircraft were in 

international airspace and they were destroyed intentionally and in 

clear violation of international law. Close quote. 

The condemnation was echoed by well-known national and international organizations such as the European Union, the U.N. Commission on Human Rights, and its counterpart at the Organization 

of American States, the U.N. Security Council, the United States 

Congress, the International Civil Aviation Organization, and my 

own district, the U.S. Southern District Court of Florida. 

Just to cite a few from the reports above, ICAO reaffirmed its 

condemnation of the use of weapons against civil aircraft in flight 

as being incompatible with elementary considerations of humanity. 


KING-6430 with DISTILLER
7 

And the U.N. Commission on Human Rights in Geneva, Switzerland reported also in 1996—and I quote—the shoot-down was a 

premeditated act and that it constituted a violation of the right of 

life to four people. Close quote. 

The evidence supporting the crime committed against three 

Americans and a legal resident is overwhelming. It was the shootdown that prompted President Clinton to sign into law the Cuban 

Liberty and Democratic Solidarity Act of 1996. It is also the reason 

why the law cites the findings by the U.S. Congress condemning 

the shoot-down as an act of terrorism by the Castro regime. Congress also urged the President back then to seek in the International Court of Justice indictments for this act of terrorism by 

Fidel Castro. Close quote. 

We could also note that Congress reaffirmed the fact that it is 

incumbent upon the U.S. Government to protect the lives and livelihood of U.S. citizens, as well as the rights of free passage and humanitarian missions. 

With so much evidence at hand, for a crime defined—and I quote 

the above entities—as a barbaric violation of international law, an 

extrajudicial killing, premeditated and intentional, using brutal 

methods, and tantamount to cold-blooded murder, among others, is 

it not inconceivable that the criminals have gotten away with the 

murders of four innocent men for the past 22 years? Perhaps declassifying additional information will aid in the pursuit of justice. 

Or must we die and never see justice served? 

I beg those of you in government responsible for our safety and 

that of our children to do what is necessary to procure justice and 

put an end to impunity. 

Adding fuel to the fire, the families were deeply hurt when 

Gerardo Hernandez, the only Cuban high ranking military official 

serving a life sentence in the U.S. for his role in the shoot-down, 

was released from prison. We felt back then, as we feel now, betrayed when this communist cadre of the Cuban military apparatus 

was set free and returned to Cuba. Justice was aborted by a stroke 

of President Obama’s pen. Should a U.S. President defend and respect the rights of American citizens, or should he favor the victimizers? 

Finally, Mr. Chairman, members of the committee, it is my hope 

that the systematic human rights abuses taking place in Cuba will 

soon come to an end and that our President will be the first President in nearly 6 decades to shake the hand of a Cuban President 

freely elected by the people who respects and defends the Universal 

Declaration of Human Rights. 

I thank the committee for the opportunity granted me on behalf 

of our loved ones, Armando, Pablo, Carlos, and Mario. God bless 

the United States of America. 

[Prepared statement of Ms. de la Pen ̃ a follows:] 


KING-6430 with DISTILLER
8 


KING-6430 with DISTILLERInsert offset folio 1 here 31274.001
9 


KING-6430 with DISTILLERInsert offset folio 2 here 31274.002
10 

Mr. DESANTIS. Thank you. 

Ms. Ciereszko, you are up for 5 minutes. 

STATEMENT OF ANA ALEJANDRE CIERESZKO 

Ms. CIERESZKO. Good afternoon, Mr. Chairman and committee 

members. Thank you for having this hearing today. 

My brother Armando Alejandre, a marine and Vietnam veteran, 

was murdered by the Cuban Government on February 24th, 1996, 

together with Carlos Costa, Mario Manuel de la Pen ̃ a, and Pablo 

Morales. 

I am here representing Armando’s widow, daughter, sisters, 96- 

year-old mother, and many family members. 22 years after the 

shoot-down, we are still searching for justice. We were dealt a very 

harsh blow when Gerardo Hernandez, convicted of conspiracy to 

murder in the shoot-down, was returned to Cuba by President 

Obama. 

What I brought to you today is a compilation of evidence that 

supports the guilt of the many responsible for these murders. This 

information, reports, indictments, transcriptions of communications, audio tapes, et cetera, should bring us a little bit closer to 

justice. We provided most of this evidence to the FBI in 2002. In 

2003, the U.S. District Court, Southern District of Florida, issued 

indictments charging the head of the Cuban air force, Ruben Martinez Puente, and the MiG pilots, the brothers, Lorenzo Alberto 

and Francisco Perez-Perez, with conspiracy to kill U.S. nationals, 

destruction of aircraft, and murder. These indictments marked the 

end of action by the U.S. Government on these murders. 

We seek additional indictments against many others responsible 

for the shoot-down. First on the list is Raul Castro, who at the time 

of the shoot-down was the chief of the Cuban armed forces. Castro 

no longer enjoys protection as head of state. There is an audio recording of a radio interview in which Castro accepts responsibility 

for these murders. There is also testimony that the Cuban air force 

had practiced shooting down small planes days before February 

24th. 

Various members of the Cuban intelligence and armed forces at 

the time of the shoot-down should also be brought to justice. These 

include Eduardo Delgado Rodriguez, Brigadier General of the 

Cuban Directorate of Intelligence; Emilio Palacios, pilot of the MiG 

23; Ulises Rosales del Toro, chief of the FAR; and others. 

We are also looking for the political will on the part of our government to transmit to Interpol the names of the pilots and the 

general who gave the order, all of whom have pending indictments 

in U.S. courts. We need to make sure that they are apprehended 

and brought to trial. 

We are also requesting information on the role of Ana Belen 

Montes in the shoot-down. She is currently serving a 25-year sentence in a U.S. correctional facility after having pled guilty to 

charges of espionage on behalf of the Cuban Government. Montes 

was the top Cuban analyst for the Defense Intelligence Agency and 

advised President Clinton on the response to the shoot-down. 

We are also pursuing information on Rolando Sarraff Trujillo 

who was exchanged by President Obama for Alan Gross at the 

same time as when the three of the five convicted spies of the 


KING-6430 with DISTILLER
11 

Wasp Network were released. Mr. Sarraff was accused of being an 

agent of the CIA and served 20 years in a Cuban jail. He has never 

been made available to the media, and nothing is known about his 

whereabouts. We believe he may have information on the shootdown and would like our government to make him available to us. 

To summarize, we are seeking indictments, starting with Raul 

Castro. We are requesting that the names of those already indicted 

be provided to Interpol. We are pursuing additional information 

from the testimony of others in our search for the truth. 

We hope that you, this committee, understand that this is not a 

Cuban issue. Carlos and Mario were born in the United States. My 

brother Armando was an American citizen, a marine and Vietnam 

veteran. And Pablito was a U.S. resident. As Americans, they deserve the justice that is their due. 

Thank you very much for this opportunity. 

[Prepared statement of Ms. Ciereszko follows:] 


KING-6430 with DISTILLER
12 


KING-6430 with DISTILLERInsert offset folio 3 here 31274.003
13 


KING-6430 with DISTILLERInsert offset folio 4 here 31274.004
14 

Mr. DESANTIS. Thank you. 

Mr. Poblete, you are up. 

STATEMENT OF JASON POBLETE 

Mr. POBLETE. Holocaust survivor and Nobel laureate Eli Weisel 

said, ‘‘to forget the dead would be akin to killing them a second 

time.’’ So thank you, Mr. Chairman, Mr. Ranking Member, and 

members of the committee for holding this important oversight 

hearing on justice for American victims of Cuban communism. 

Since the World War II Nuremberg Tribunals, international systems, national courts, and laws the world over have evolved so that 

today lawyers have better tools, albeit imperfect, to exact justice 

against violators of universally accepted fundamental freedoms. 

Chile’s Pinochet, Yugoslavia’s Milosevic, Peru’s Fujimori, Panama’s 

Noriega, Brazil’s Lula Da Silva, Rwanda’s Ntaganzwa, and many 

other former government officials have come face to face with Lady 

Justice. These are not symbolic moves. Rather, they advance the 

cause of justice and the rule of law. These are fundamental building blocks of a civilized society. 

Yet, as American Airline planes land in Cuban airports, Carnival 

and Norwegian ships dock at Cuba ports, and Marriott International manages four hotels with the Cuban military, American 

families harmed by Cuban officials are increasingly concerned that 

their cases have been forgotten. Murder, torture, forced disappearances, hostage taking, as well as property confiscations unparalleled in the history of the western hemisphere are some of the 

crimes that have been committed against American citizens. My 

message to these Cuba criminals: justice will be done. America will 

be coming for you. 

The Brothers to the Rescue shoot-down is a good example of justice delayed, a delay that has harmed the cause of justice throughout the Americas. It is an invitation to autocrats to target America. 

That has been the case recently in Venezuela and in Nicaragua. 

The United States must indict Raul Castro and co-conspirators 

under U.S. law for the Brothers to the Rescue murders. The United 

States and other responsible stakeholders must also redouble efforts to track, investigate, indict any Cuban official for crimes 

against Americans. 

The concerns of Americans tortured in Vietnam by the Cubans, 

the Brothers to the Rescue families that are here with us, and the 

thousands of other Americans who were victims of Cuban communism —- their opinions and their values are just as important 

as those of American Airlines, Marriott, Carnival, Norwegian, the 

U.S. Chamber of Commerce, and others who advocate engagement 

with Cuba. All Americans deserve equal access and treatment 

under the law. 

Cuba will never be China or Vietnam of the Americas. It is an 

island of 10 million people run by bad and corrupt central planners. It is not a paradise. It is a gulag. It is a Potemkin village. 

When Americans visit, they only see what the police state wants 

them to see. The Communist Party does not like Americans, free 

markets, private property, or the rule of law. Americans who they 

perceive as a threat, as Cuba has done since 1959, will be targeted. 


KING-6430 with DISTILLER
15 

That is why it was extremely disconcerting but not surprising 

when I learned that the State Department was investigating via a 

statutorily required accountability review board the alleged attacks 

against Americans stationed at Post Havana. 

Justice for the victims of the Brothers to the Rescue shoot-down 

is a linchpin case for other Americans seeking justice for a wide 

range of crimes committed by Cuban outlaws. U.S. attorneys need 

full access to all information. The declassification process should 

begin swiftly. The safety of Americans I believe depends on it. 

Interpol red notices should be issued for Cuba international outlaws for existing indictments, and if legally possible, the United 

States should rescind whatever was promised to Cuba in exchange 

for five Cuban spies released from U.S. federal prison. One of these 

criminals who was directly involved in the Brothers to the Rescue 

shoot-down said upon his release, I will do it again if I have to. 

Removing Cuba from the state sponsors of terrorism list was a 

grave mistake and, based on the public record, reckless. It undermined U.S. policy goals, but also set back the cause of justice as 

has failing to effectively enforce many other U.S. laws. 

For example, nine sections of the Libertad Act have been poorly 

implemented and parts of it mostly ignored by both Republican and 

Democratic administrations. It is not, as critics claim, however, an 

outdated law that does not work. Laws work when laws are enforced. 

President Donald Trump’s 2017 reorientation of U.S. policy was 

an excellent development, decades overdue. Senior executive agency officials and presidential advisors should robustly execute President Trump’s national security presidential memo number 5, one 

that puts, quote, national security and foreign policy interests first. 

Similarly, as the Congress seeks rigorous enforcement of the 

global Magnitsky Act, CAATSA sanctions, it should seek the same 

for statutes guiding policy toward a regime with American blood on 

its hands. 

Finally, beyond the more than eight recommendations offered in 

my prepared remarks for the record, the Trump administration 

should seriously consider creating an interagency task force to 

track down international outlaws in the Americas. Access to the 

U.S. market is a privilege not a right. International outlaws belong 

behind bars. They and in some cases their family members should 

never be allowed to vacation in America or, worse, freely move 

about our country as agents of a totalitarian police state. 

[Prepared statement of Mr. Poblete follows:] 


KING-6430 with DISTILLER
16 


KING-6430 with DISTILLERInsert offset folio 5 here 31274.005
17 


KING-6430 with DISTILLERInsert offset folio 6 here 31274.006
18 


KING-6430 with DISTILLERInsert offset folio 7 here 31274.007
19 


KING-6430 with DISTILLERInsert offset folio 8 here 31274.008
20 


KING-6430 with DISTILLERInsert offset folio 9 here 31274.009
21 


KING-6430 with DISTILLERInsert offset folio 10 here 31274.010
22 


KING-6430 with DISTILLERInsert offset folio 11 here 31274.011
23 


KING-6430 with DISTILLERInsert offset folio 12 here 31274.012
24 


KING-6430 with DISTILLERInsert offset folio 13 here 31274.013
25 


KING-6430 with DISTILLERInsert offset folio 14 here 31274.014
26 


KING-6430 with DISTILLERInsert offset folio 15 here 31274.015
27 


KING-6430 with DISTILLERInsert offset folio 16 here 31274.016
28 


KING-6430 with DISTILLERInsert offset folio 17 here 31274.017
29 


KING-6430 with DISTILLERInsert offset folio 18 here 31274.018
30 


KING-6430 with DISTILLERInsert offset folio 19 here 31274.019
31 


KING-6430 with DISTILLERInsert offset folio 20 here 31274.020
32 


KING-6430 with DISTILLERInsert offset folio 21 here 31274.021
33 


KING-6430 with DISTILLERInsert offset folio 22 here 31274.022
34 

Mr. DESANTIS. I thank the gentleman. 

The chair now recognizes Ambassador Noriega for 5 minutes. 

STATEMENT OF AMBASSADOR ROGER NORIEGA 

Ambassador NORIEGA. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I 

have a written statement for the record. I apologize again for my 

tardiness. No disrespect to the committee and its members. 

Thank you for the opportunity to testify before you at this hearing to remind us all of the February 24, 1996 attack by the Castro 

regime which took the lives of four innocent men who were patrolling international waters to locate and rescue Cuban brothers and 

sisters at peril in the sea. The Castros never faced justice for this 

crime despite the late dictator’s public admission that the two 

brothers orchestrated this ambush and the use of lethal force. 

In retrospect, Mr. Chairman, we should have recognized this 

1996 attack as dispositive proof of the illegitimacy of the terror 

state in Cuba. Indeed, this hearing is a welcomed opportunity to 

recall that the regime in Havana has never been confronted for its 

international crime spree, which began nearly 60 years ago, 6 decades ago, and continues to this very day. 

From urging the preemptive nuclear strike against the United 

States in 1962, to organizing a terror campaign against Central 

Americans, to sharing anti-American intelligence with our enemies 

in Baghdad and Belgrade, the Castro regime is an implacable and 

tireless foe of the United States. 

Castro’s ongoing criminal conspiracy on our doorstep, which has 

converted Venezuela into a platform for narcotics trafficking, 

money laundering, embezzlement, extortion, and political destabilization demands an urgent and effective response. The Castro regime installed Nicolas Maduro as the leader in Venezuela and the 

perfection of a dictatorship and the destruction of an oil-rich economy is Cuba’s handiwork, which was being perpetrated brazenly at 

the same time that President Obama was heaping concessions on 

Havana. 

Cuban agents run an internal security apparatus in Venezuela 

that safeguards a narcostate, which consists of dozens of senior officials, including the president himself and the former vice president, who have been convicted or sanctioned by U.S. authorities for 

their involvement in narcotrafficking and support for terrorism. Indeed, Mr. Chairman, there is fresh evidence of the Castro clan’s direct involvement in drug trafficking and terrorism in Venezuela. 

Last month, two active duty Venezuelan military officers informed U.S. law enforcement regarding the direct involvement of 

Cuban military personnel in cocaine smuggling and support for Colombian terror camps deep into Venezuelan territory. Specifically, 

one of the reports implicates Raul Castro’s son-in-law, Cuban General Luis Alberto Rodriguez Lopez-Calleja, in the shipment of cocaine through the Venezuelan port of Lohidao. Another senior Venezuelan officer told U.S. authorities how Cuban officers ordered the 

local military to steer clear of Colombian narco guerilla camps deep 

in Venezuelan territory, which are responsible for transiting cocaine to Caribbean ports bound for the United States and other 

markets. 


KING-6430 with DISTILLER
35 

At long last, we should treat Castro regime officials as the international criminals that they are, starting with the decision not to 

recognize their hand-picked pawn as the legitimate leader of Cuba. 

In other words, we should break diplomatic relations with Cuba. 

We should gather the evidence to publicly identify Cubans who 

are involved in narcotrafficking, human rights violations, and 

crimes and indict them in U.S. courts. 

We should convince willing partners in the international community to join us in applying financial sanctions against these criminals, freezing their assets and blocking their access to global financial networks. 

In my view, U.S. policymakers should judge future policies toward Cuba on whether they increase the economic and political 

freedom of the Cuban people. For example, we should reinvigorate 

our high profile solidarity with the Cuban dissidents, human rights 

activists, independent journalists and artists who have informed 

me personally that the U.S. embassy in Havana basically abandoned them after the Obama opening to the Cuban regime. 

We should rally likeminded governments in Latin America and 

Eastern Europe to engage the Cuban people not the dictatorship. 

We should restore funding for robust pro-democracy programs in 

Cuba. 

The State Department should return Cuba to the list of terrorist 

sponsors in light of the fact that the Castro regime sustains Colombian terror groups despite a peace process in that country. 

And we should demand accountability, as the ranking member 

said, for acoustic attacks against two dozen U.S. diplomats in Havana, which did personal physical harm to these individuals representing us overseas. 

There should be a top to bottom review of the U.S. Department 

of the Treasury and Commerce licenses for commercial activities in 

Cuba to ensure that they are consistent with U.S. policy and public 

law. 

And we should restore restrictions on tourism travel to Cuba and 

focus instead on genuine, meaningful people-to-people contact that 

will advance real contact between the people of the United States 

and Cuba. 

And finally, as Jason Poblete has said, we should enforce title IV 

and title III of the Libertad Act and send a warning to even American businesses that those that are trafficking in confiscated property face accountability if the President decides at any time, which 

he could, to stop waiving that right of action. 

Those are a few ideas, Mr. Chairman. Thank you very much for 

your attention, and I welcome the opportunity to answer any questions. 

[Prepared statement of Ambassador Noriega follows:] 


KING-6430 with DISTILLER
36 


KING-6430 with DISTILLERInsert offset folio 23 here 31274.023
37 


KING-6430 with DISTILLERInsert offset folio 24 here 31274.024
38 


KING-6430 with DISTILLERInsert offset folio 25 here 31274.025
39 


KING-6430 with DISTILLERInsert offset folio 26 here 31274.026
40 


KING-6430 with DISTILLERInsert offset folio 27 here 31274.027
41 


KING-6430 with DISTILLERInsert offset folio 28 here 31274.028
42 


KING-6430 with DISTILLERInsert offset folio 29 here 31274.029
43 


KING-6430 with DISTILLERInsert offset folio 30 here 31274.030
44 


KING-6430 with DISTILLERInsert offset folio 31 here 31274.031
45 


KING-6430 with DISTILLERInsert offset folio 32 here 31274.032
46 

Mr. DESANTIS. Thank you. 

Doctor, you are up, 5 minutes. 

STATEMENT OF WILLIAM LEOGRANDE 

Mr. LEOGRANDE. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Mr. Ranking Member, other members of the committee. Thank you for inviting me 

to testify today. 

In deciding to engage with North Korea, President Trump recognized that sanctions alone had failed to halt North Korea’s nuclear 

program. So he took a different approach. Time will tell if it works. 

I hope that it will. 

But the basic idea behind his approach is no different than the 

idea behind President Obama’s opening to Cuba. After decades of 

using the stick of sanctions against an adversarial regime without 

much success, it made sense to try to advance U.S. interests 

through a policy of engagement. 

Whether your principal concern is human rights or compensation 

for nationalized U.S. property or the return of U.S. fugitives or 

Cuba’s support for the failing regime in Venezuela, there is no 

chance of making progress on these issues with a policy of hostility 

that relies exclusively on sanctions, especially when no other country in the world observes those sanctions. Moreover, our current 

economic sanctions harm the living standards of ordinary Cubans, 

and that is why the last three Popes, including John Paul II, who 

was no friend of communism, opposed the embargo. 

The idea of engaging with Cuba is not a new one. Every President since Dwight D. Eisenhower, including both Richard Nixon 

and Ronald Reagan, engaged in negotiations with Cuba because 

they realized there were some problems that could only be solved 

with Cuban cooperation. And that is even more true today when 

so many of the issues we face in the western hemisphere are 

transnational, issues like migration, environmental protection, 

human trafficking, and organized crime. 

Engagement with an adversary in order to advance U.S. interests does not constitute a moral endorsement of that adversary’s 

behavior. President Trump’s meeting with Kim Jong-un was not an 

endorsement of North Korea’s human rights record, nor was President Obama’s opening to Cuba an endorsement of that regime’s 

human rights record. 

Our current National Defense Strategy, approved by the President in December, identifies China and Russia as our principal adversaries in the world today. Both are authoritarian regimes with 

terrible human rights records. Yet, we engage with them every day 

on a variety of issues because doing so serves our national interest. 

There is no reason not to do the same with Cuba. Moreover, as we 

back away from engagement with Cuba, Russia and China are 

rushing to fill the vacuum. 

With regard to seeking criminal indictments against Cuban officials for human rights abuses, even if there were legal grounds for 

securing these indictments, the accused could not be brought to 

trial because Cuban law prohibits the extradition of Cuban nationals. In 1982, four Cuban officials were indicted in Florida for narcotics trafficking, and the only effect of those indictments was to 

delay the establishment of counternarcotics cooperation between 


KING-6430 with DISTILLER
47 

the United States and Cuba until the 1990s. In 2003, as has been 

mentioned, the two Cuban pilots responsible for shooting down the 

Brothers to the Rescue plane were indicted in Florida, along with 

their commanding general, but that case has not progressed either. 

Pursuing human rights indictments today might be symbolically 

satisfying, but it would poison the atmosphere of bilateral relations 

and impede existing law enforcement cooperation. That would endanger our ability to secure the extradition of U.S. nationals who 

have committed crimes here and then fled to Cuba and our ability 

to pursue the prosecution in Cuba of Cuban nationals for crimes 

committed in the United States. These are areas in which there 

has been significant and ongoing progress since 2014. 

In short, I believe that more has been gained and more can be 

gained through a policy of engagement and cooperation on issues 

of mutual interest than through a policy of unmitigated hostility 

and heightened sanctions, real or symbolic. 

I agree with former Secretary of Commerce Carlos Gutierrez 

when he argues that engagement is the best way to help a new 

generation of Cubans modernize their economy and their political 

system. 

Cuba today is going through a process of change, both in its leadership and in its economy. The old generation that founded the regime is leaving the political stage. Most are already gone. At the 

same time, Cuba is trying to move from a Soviet style economic 

planning system to some version of market socialism like China 

and Vietnam. Economic reform is providing Cubans greater economic freedom, and if it succeeds, it could raise their standard of 

living significantly. U.S. policy ought to facilitate that change not 

impede it. 

Ultimately the people of Cuba will determine their nation’s future and decide on issues of accountability. If the United States 

wants to have a positive influence on these developing changes, it 

has to engage, not sit on the sidelines. 

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

[Prepared statement of Mr. LeoGrande follows:] 


KING-6430 with DISTILLER
48 


KING-6430 with DISTILLERInsert offset folio 33 here 31274.033
49 


KING-6430 with DISTILLERInsert offset folio 34 here 31274.034
50 


KING-6430 with DISTILLERInsert offset folio 35 here 31274.035
51 

Mr. DESANTIS. Thank you. 

The chair now recognizes himself for 5 minutes. 

Ms. de la Pen ̃ a, can you tell me a little bit about Mario and why 

was he involved with Brothers to the Rescue? 

Ms. DE LA PEN ̃ A. Yes, Mr. Chairman. My son Mario wanted to 

be a pilot all his life. It was something that he just loved. And he 

started flying and learning about airplanes at a very early age. 

And when he had all his licenses to fly, Brothers to the Rescue was 

already rescuing—and it was in the news—rescuing lots of Cuban 

rafters who would otherwise perish at sea. And it was a very wonderful thing to do. I admired him for wanting to do that, volunteer 

his time. And so he volunteered and he was accepted to fly with 

them. 

He was going to school and he had a part-time job, and in between, he would fly whenever he got called for a mission. And he 

would leave the house at 7:00 in the morning, fly, and come back, 

and tell me the stories of what happened. And the first time he 

flew—no, not the first time he flew because he first flew as an observer and then later as a pilot. But the first time that he saw a 

young couple at sea, it was a little spot. And they communicated 

via a two-way radio. The couple was younger than he was, and he 

was only like 22. And he came back and he said, Mom, they were 

younger than I am and they were at sea with sharks and the whole 

works. And he was just very excited about doing it. That is why 

he joined Brothers to the Rescue because it was a very fulfilling experience for him. 

Mr. DESANTIS. Ms. Ciereszko, what about Armando? What was 

he like and why did he do it? 

Ms. CIERESZKO. Well, Armando came to the United States as a 

10-year-old. We came in 1960 to escape Castro’s communism. And 

he always felt a love for Cuba, but he also felt a love for the United 

States. And Armando was the kind of person who always wanted 

to help others. He truly believed that his service in Vietnam was 

going to help stop communism, the spread of communism. He had 

not been able to stop it in Cuba. He was just a little kid when he 

left. But he believed that he could make an impact there. 

Afterwards, he stayed very active on many issues both on Cuban 

issues but also on issues in the United States. During the Gulf 

War, he provided a lot of support to the families of the men and 

women who went to fight in the Gulf War. There were groups in 

Miami that were supporting them, and he did a lot there. And so 

he was always active with that. 

He actually was not a member of Brothers to the Rescue. He was 

just someone who cared about what was going on. And he had 

flown only once before to the Bahamas where there was a camp 

where many rafters had been taken to because they had not been 

able to reach U.S. shores. They had reached the Bahamas. And 

they had taken diapers and milk and food. And they were supposed 

to go back to the Bahamas that day, and he was very excited about 

that. 

But I think it was planned by the Cuban Government to make 

sure that instead they were on the Florida straits looking for 

rafters because they were not allowed to land in the Bahamas beVerDate Nov 24 2008 10:05 Sep 25, 2018 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00055 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 H:\31274.TXT APRIL

KING-6430 with DISTILLER
52 

cause the Cuban Government had a visit to the camp that day, and 

they did not want both groups there at the same time. 

Mr. DESANTIS. Now, what you and then other families—the experience about how the U.S. Government reacted to this and have 

you been disappointed? How would you express your feelings about 

the aftermath? Here we are many years later. 

Ms. CIERESZKO. We felt that the Clinton administration had a 

very weak response because we thought they are killing Americans 

on international waters. And the only thing that came out of that 

was the Helms-Burton Cuban Libertad Act. And it did not feel like 

it was enough. 

Before that, we always believed that the United States would 

stand for its citizens anywhere in the world. I cherish my United 

States passport. I travel a lot. But I do not feel as comfortable 

today as I did many, many years ago when I really believed that 

the United States would come to bat for any American citizen 

wherever they got into trouble. 

Mr. DESANTIS. Ms. de la Pen ̃ a? 

Ms. DE LA PEN ̃ A. I feel equally as disappointed in the response 

because my son would say I do not break the law. I am saving 

lives, and I will be fine, Mom. 

I was worried about the weather and the clouds and the thundering when he was flying in these little planes. I was not worried 

about a Castro warplane coming out of their territory into international airspace and killing and shooting down the two planes 

without any notice to the pilots. 

But it was very weak—the response. 

And also, 2 years ago, President Clinton met with Raul Castro 

here at the United Nations and shook hands with him, and how 

happy he was to finally meet him. That was very hurtful for us as 

well. The guy that gave the order to kill American citizens and you 

are very happy to hold his hand? It is one disappointment after another. 

Mr. DESANTIS. My time has expired. I will recognize the ranking 

member for his questions. 

Mr. LYNCH. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

First of all, again, let me just express my sorrow at your loss. 

And let me express my thanks to your sons and to the other pilots 

for their service to individual freedom and democracy and, in the 

case of your son, Ms. Ciereszko, his service to the United States 

Marine Corps. 

Mr. NORIEGA AND DR. LeoGrande, both in your remarks you 

talked about—Mr. Noriega you talked about maintaining support 

for the Cuban dissidents and funding for pro-democracy efforts, 

people-to-people contact. Dr. LeoGrande, similar sentiments as well 

about engagement. Engagement. 

So the current policy really with President Trump is really one 

of disengagement and more sanctions-related. And I understand 

the thinking behind that, although there is a long history that says 

the sanctions are not working. I have been to Cuba several times, 

and I have to agree with that sentiment. 

How do we get there? How do we get to a point of holding the 

Cuban leadership accountable through engagement? How does that 


KING-6430 with DISTILLER
53 

work if this system of sanctions has not been successful these many 

years? 

Ambassador NORIEGA. Well, I think one of the points I wanted 

to make in my statement, Congressman, was that we have tried for 

60 years to treat the Cuban Government as if it were a legitimate 

government. We have tried that and it has failed. I think we need 

to recognize that the purpose of the United States is not to sell rice 

and soybeans. It was put on earth to promote democracy and protect human rights and promote these shared values to make the 

world a better place. 

Engaging the totalitarian regime of Cuba to the exclusion of the 

11 million people in Cuba I think is a grotesque mistake. I think 

the idea that people who are going to the beaches of Cuba, to which 

Cuban people do not have access themselves, to suntan themselves 

and the idea that sunbathers are going to liberate Cuba is grotesque as well. The idea of American tourists doing pub crawls and 

rum tastings, tiptoeing through their tropical gulag in Havana I 

think is grotesque as well. 

But I think it is a mistake for people to assert that we did not 

have travel to Cuba. Hundreds of thousands of American people 

travel to Cuba on a regular basis in different categories of travel. 

The best ambassadors for the United States are Cuban Americans who are also the people who heap benefits, material benefits, 

on their family members in Cuba. The United States does some 

commerce with Cuba, but we cannot underestimate the importance 

of that personal contact of Cuban American family members. And 

I think that their wishes should have been respected by President 

Obama as he engaged the regime that keeps those people enslaved. 

Mr. LYNCH. Let me ask Dr. LeoGrande. There is a sense among 

some people that ironically the sanctions have actually helped the 

regime by this rallying around the leaders there against the big, 

bad United States. What are your senses as opposed to sanctions 

versus engagement? 

Mr. LEOGRANDE. Well, I think there is no doubt that Cuban leadership has used the hostility of the United States to try to rally 

Cuban nationalism, wrap themselves in the Cuban flag. And I 

think they have got 50 years of experience doing that. They know 

how to do it. They are pretty good at it. 

I think in many ways President Obama’s policy of engagement 

was a more difficult one for them to actually deal with because the 

boogeyman was gone, as Ambassador Roberta Jacobson said at one 

point. They could not point to the United States as the source of 

all their problems anymore. 

With regard to engagement, I do not think it is really accurate 

that we spent 50 years treating the Cuban Government like a legitimate government. Up until most recently in 2014, our attitude 

was, in fact, that the Cuban Government was illegitimate. And we 

have the greatest sanctions still today against Cuba, greater than 

we have against any other country in the world. It is the policy of 

engagement that President Obama began, which began then to 

treat Cuba as a legitimate government, as at least a de facto government in the same way that we treat lots of governments around 

the world that we do not like as the de facto government because 

it serves our national interest. 


KING-6430 with DISTILLER
54 

Mr. LYNCH. Thank you. 

Mr. Chairman, my time has expired. I yield back. 

Mr. DESANTIS. The gentleman yields back. 

The chair notes the presence of our colleague, who I did note for 

an opening statement, but I just want to ask officially unanimous 

consent that Ms. Ros-Lehtinen be allowed to fully participate in today’s hearing. And without objection, it is so ordered. 

And I would now like to recognize her for 5 minutes. 

Ms. ROS-LEHTINEN. Well, thank you so much, gentlemen, for 

your gracious nature. 

I surely appreciate it because this issue matters so much to me 

and to the constituents I represent. And there is no question that 

Castro ordered his Cuban air force to shoot down the two unarmed 

civilian aircraft, and they were identified as such, that killed Carlos, Mario, Armando, and Pablo. 

Sadly, many of our allies around the world turned a blind eye to 

that atrocious attack and continue to this day to turn a blind eye 

to the abysmal human rights record, the violations committed 

every day by the Castro regime in Cuba. And for too long, the 

wrongs committed upon American citizens have gone unpunished, 

particularly in the case of the murders of these four brave pilots. 

The Cuban regime is known, as you pointed out, Mr. Chairman, 

for harboring U.S. fugitives of justice, including William Morales, 

Joanne Chesimard, so many. And the regime is also known for its 

coziness with other U.S. designated foreign terrorist groups like 

Hezbollah and the FARC. The regime is responsible for destabilizing the governments of other countries in the region. In Venezuela, in Nicaragua, in Ecuador, we have seen Castro’s hand in 

weakening the democratic institutions of those countries. 

And I would ask the experts here under current U.S. law, what 

authorities or avenues are available for the families to sue or for 

the U.S. Government to bring to justice the individuals responsible 

for the shoot-down and other many human rights violations. Also, 

are there any legal barriers or restrictions that prevent this from 

happening, that could be resolved by an act of Congress? Or is it 

that administrations have lacked the political will? What do we 

need to do? 

And finally, we hear about the international mechanisms to go 

after the regime, a tribunal set up by the U.N. Security Council, 

getting responsible nations to join us in holding the Cuban regime 

officials accountable for their human rights abuses. But how do we 

go about doing that, if we agree that we should? We know that 

Russia and China will block anything that we try to do on Cuba 

at the Security Council. Sometimes even our allies, who agree with 

us, as we saw with Ambassador Haley’s statements on our withdrawal from the U.N. Human Rights Council yesterday, are unwilling to take that extra step and do the right thing. So what levers 

of persuasion or pressure can we use to get them on board? 

So the legal barriers. What legal avenues are available for redress? And what can we do internationally to get others to help us? 

Mr. POBLETE. Thank you, Madam Chairman. 

I think the first step we have to take is focus on the political will 

to get us there. The legal mechanisms have existed. I think plenty 

of U.S. attorneys in your hometown have tried. I think what hapVerDate Nov 24 2008 10:05 Sep 25, 2018 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00058 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 H:\31274.TXT APRIL

KING-6430 with DISTILLER
55 

pens is that when the indictments reach Washington, something 

happens at the Department of State and at the Justice Department 

and at the White House potentially, and the whole thing—as the 

families have—they will share many stories with you over 2 decades’ worth of trying to do this. Something just happens. It comes 

to a halt. 

That is why I was recommending the first step, declassify everything we have. Empower the U.S. attorneys to pursue this again. 

The red notices frankly can be issued tomorrow if they wanted to 

do it for some of the existing indictments. 

But also I think the other part of this beyond political will, because that is an important part of any justice equation in cases like 

these, you have to enforce U.S. law. U.S. law is not an embargo. 

It is a big myth that there is a comprehensive embargo in place 

against Cuba. That has not existed since 1992. There are difficulties in engaging in the Cuban marketplace, but it is not a comprehensive embargo because the law has never been enforced that 

way. 

And that gets to your question and a lot of points that have been 

raised here. The U.S. Government has never tried to internationalize our strategy, as required in statute, to get our allies to cooperate with us. So in the case of some of these indictments and the 

red notices, we could work with our colleagues in Latin America, 

Asia, Europe, folks that want to work with us to pursue maybe the 

Interpol notices, to cooperate with us to bring these people to justice, to freeze assets, to freeze bank accounts to make it so that no 

international Cuban scofflaw can leave Cuba. We can do that tomorrow. We just need the political will to make it so. 

Ms. ROS-LEHTINEN. Thank you, Mr. Poblete. 

Thank you so much, Mr. Chairman, for your generosity. 

Mr. DESANTIS. No problem. 

The chair now recognizes the gentleman from Vermont for 5 minutes. 

Mr. Welch: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

First of all to moms who lost your sons, I join all of us in expressing my condolences to you and I admire your perseverance in behalf of their memory and justice for them. So thank you. 

And Professor LeoGrande, just in your words describe how engagement would be helpful to young Cubans in an effort to modernize their political system? 

Mr. LEOGRANDE. Well, the first thing it does, as we were speaking of earlier, is it takes away the regime’s ability to blame the 

United States for all of Cuba’s problems. I think engagement particularly extended travel—and I have to say that Americans are 

not lying on beaches thinking that that is going to liberate Cuba. 

The law still prohibits Americans actually from going to Cuba 

strictly for tourism. 

But engagement with Americans has helped to build a new private sector in Cuba. There are now over 500,000 private businesses, not counting agricultural businesses. 

Mr. Welch: Has travel gone down since the change in administrations? 

Mr. LEOGRANDE. It has. Travel is down this year over last about 

40 percent from the United States. And I think that is primarily 


KING-6430 with DISTILLER
56 

due to the travel warning that the State Department put in place 

when we had the order of departure from the embassy. The order 

of departure, of course, was required by law and it was not unreasonable to reduce the staffing of the embassy given the apparent 

danger that U.S. diplomats were in. But if that persists, then it 

does cast a shadow over our ability to have a more productive relationship with Cuba. 

You know, young Cubans are hopeful. First of all, young Cubans, 

I should say, are much more critical of the Cuban regime than the 

older generation is. They are much less tolerant of its lack of freedom, its lack of economic and political freedom. But they have generally been, as all Cubans have been, supportive of a policy of U.S. 

engagement. There are a couple of polls that have been done by 

people here in the United States in Cuba asking Cubans what they 

think about the policy of engagement, and they have supported it. 

Mr. Welch: All right. Thank you very much. 

Mr. Noriega, there are human rights issues obviously in Cuba. 

And I know you are passionate about that in Cuba, and thank you 

for that. But do you believe those human rights standards should 

apply to all countries, freedom of expression, free practice of religion, and the right to form political association? 

Ambassador NORIEGA. Yes. They are universally recognized 

human rights. I would have no problem endorsing those. 

Mr. Welch: So I would take it you would believe the U.S., if it 

is going to be supportive of human rights in Cuba, should be supportive of human rights everywhere. 

Ambassador NORIEGA. Of course. 

Mr. Welch: There are some contradictions it appears to some outside observers. For example, last year, as you know, President 

Trump was with King Solman of Saudi Arabia, and there is an immense amount of evidence that there are serious human rights 

abuses in Saudi Arabia. And the President said we are not here to 

lecture. We are not here to tell other people how to live, what to 

do, or how to worship. How does that square with our advocacy, 

what we should be doing in Cuba? 

Ambassador NORIEGA. I am happy to assure you, Congressman, 

I agree with you, that we should defend human rights everywhere. 

Mr. Welch: Well, thank you. 

Ambassador NORIEGA. You are welcome. 

Mr. Welch: Professor LeoGrande, can you think of a principled 

reason why the President would cut off relations with Cuba for 

human rights reasons but at the same time withhold any criticism 

of human rights abuses in Saudi Arabia? 

Mr. LEOGRANDE. Well, you know, in the history of American diplomacy, the United States has always supported human rights in 

principle, but in practical terms, we often balance our support for 

human rights off against other interests that we may have, economic, strategic interests. And I think that is what we see in the 

President’s policy, as I said earlier, toward North Korea or his policy towards the Philippines and so on. 

Mr. Welch: One last question. How are our farmers doing under 

the current policy towards Cuba? 

Mr. LEOGRANDE. I am sorry. How are? 

Mr. Welch: Are Midwest farmers doing? 


KING-6430 with DISTILLER
57 

Mr. LEOGRANDE. Right now because our farmers cannot get private financing, external financing for their sales to Cuba and the 

Cubans have to pay cash up front, we are not the most attractive 

customer for the Cuban Government. We have, nevertheless, been 

able to maintain several hundred million dollars of trade, but if 

that financing restriction were to be removed, the Cuban market 

is a $2 billion agricultural imports market. 

Mr. Welch: Thank you. 

My time has expired. I yield back. 

Mr. DESANTIS. The gentleman yields back. 

The chair now receives himself for 5 minutes. 

Ambassador Noriega, when Obama did his opening to Cuba, you 

had a lot of American corporations partnering and doing business 

with the Cuban military and the tourist industry, in particular, 

where those industries traffic in stolen property that was seized 

from the regime. So this conflicts with the Helms-Burton law, 

which I know you were heavily involved with, to protect the rights 

of Americans whose property was stolen in Cuba and the Trump 

policy prohibiting commerce with the military dictatorship. But yet, 

for decades, foreign companies have been trafficking in these stolen 

properties. And despite last year’s reversal, American companies 

continue to do so as well. 

In your opinion how should that problem be handled by the U.S. 

Government? 

Ambassador NORIEGA. Well, I think it is more important than 

ever particularly that some U.S. companies are engaging and there 

are some travel and Carnival cruises and all these sorts of things 

going down using facilities in Cuba. It is more important than ever 

that we apply the law because there are Americans who are now 

essentially violating the concept of property rights of fellow American citizens. And so there are a couple of provisions that could be 

applied. 

Title IV of the Libertad Act authorizes the Secretary of State to 

pull the visas of people who participate in that. And so there will 

be some American companies that have foreign executives who 

could potentially be impacted by that. 

And you have title III, the right of action. It simply says go to 

a court of law and demonstrate that this is your property, that 

under the Libertad Act, this person was not authorized to use that 

property. And the person trafficking in that stolen property would 

be accountable to the other American, or for that matter, foreign 

companies could also be accountable to Americans if the President 

of the United States decided to stop waiving the right of people to 

bring action under title III of the Libertad Act, which the President 

could do tomorrow if he wanted to. 

Mr. DESANTIS. Mr. Poblete, do you agree? 

Mr. POBLETE. I think we have to find a way to bring Cuba to account on not only these claims but claims of the families. And the 

property issue—and this is odd coming from a lawyer, but the last 

thing some of us want to do is end up court trying to litigate cases 

and spending our client’s money on litigation because litigation is 

expensive. But we need to use title III, the threat of it. We need 

to use title IV more robustly to bring Cuba to the negotiating table 

and stop hedging so much, not just on the certified claims but on 


KING-6430 with DISTILLER
58 

these cases. And I think that is how we need to approach the Cuba 

conundrum. I do not think it is that complicated. We have States 

in the Union that have a lot more GDP than Cuba will ever generate. 

So I think it is a manageable issue, but I think right now what 

we really need is political will. I understand the arguments on both 

sides, but the claimants have been waiting a very long time. If we 

keep this curious ambivalence that has characterized U.S. policy 

for about 20 years, again Republican and Democrat administrations, who have not wanted to deal with this issue. But we must 

deal with this issue primarily because American citizens are being 

hurt. Secondly, American interests are being undermined. We are 

not the only ones trying to get into Cuba. The Russians are trying 

to get in there. China is trying to get in there. The Europeans are 

trying to compete with us. 

So I think a concerted effort where there is political will from the 

Trump administration—the President laid out very clearly. End 

economic practices that disproportionately benefit the Cuban Government or its military, intelligence agencies, and what have you. 

It is a very broad approach where he is instructing the executive 

branch this is where I want to go. And I think it is in the execution 

where the executive branch officials and his advisors need to follow 

through on. And I think we can get to an agreement, but we have 

to finally tackle it and be willing to not punt it. We would love to 

have title III, but that is not the, I guess, economically optimal solution to this issue. We need a solution that we can negotiate directly hopefully with a future Cuban Government. 

Mr. DESANTIS. Ms. de la Pen ̃ a, is there any doubt in your mind 

that Raul Castro is responsible for the deaths? 

Ms. DE LA PEN ̃ A. None whatsoever and I hold him accountable. 

Mr. DESANTIS. Ms. Ciereszko, any doubt that Raul Castro is culpable? 

Ms. CIERESZKO. None at all. And I encourage you to listen to the 

transmission from the radio interview that he gave. I have provided that in my documents. 

Mr. DESANTIS. You see our government will indict like Martha 

Stewart for some things. Why not indict Raul Castro for his role? 

These people just did not do this on their own. They were directed 

to do it by the regime and by Raul Castro. And I think that if the 

Trump administration would move forward with a series of indictments, but certainly that indictment, I think that that would send 

a very strong signal that this administration, like it has sent signals in other parts of the world, that it does mean business and 

it is going to take care of some of these issues that have been lingering for a long time. 

I was in Jerusalem when they moved the embassy. That had 

been going on for decades. Finally we did it. You see other parts 

of the world where there is this movement. 

So we need to bring an indictment against Raul Castro, and I 

hope they do that very quickly. 

And I am out of time. 

Steve, do you want to be recognized? 

Mr. LYNCH. No. I have no further questions. 

Mr. DESANTIS. Ileana? 


KING-6430 with DISTILLER
59 

Ms. ROS-LEHTINEN. No. Thank you so much. 

Mr. DESANTIS. Well, I want to thank you guys for coming. I know 

it is frustrating when you are talking about an issue that has lingered, but my view is that you just cannot give up, and if there are 

ways where we in the Congress can be helpful to try to push forward with good policy, whether it is accountability or whether it is 

applying the law more vigorously so that the American people’s objectives are met, we have got to do that. And so we did the Miami 

trip in January. That was illuminating, and then this hopefully 

will give us some momentum to go to the White House and say 

now is the time. Let us take some action. 

With that, this hearing is adjourned. 

[Whereupon, at 3:20 p.m., the subcommittee was adjourned.] 

Æ 


KING-6430 with DISTILLER