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40–857 PDF 2008

SUBCOMMITTEE HEARING ON MINORITY

AND HISPANIC PARTICIPATION IN

THE FEDERAL WORKFORCE AND THE

IMPACT ON THE SMALL BUSINESS

COMMUNITY

SUBCOMMITTEE ON REGULATIONS, 

HEALTH CARE AND TRADE 

COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS 

UNITED STATES HOUSE OF 

REPRESENTATIVES

ONE HUNDRED TENTH CONGRESS

SECOND SESSION

APRIL 23, 2008

Serial Number 110-87

Printed for the use of the Committee on Small Business

(

Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.access.gpo.gov/congress/house 

HOUSE COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS 

NYDIA M. VELA ́ ZQUEZ, New York, Chairwoman 

HEATH SHULER, North Carolina 

CHARLIE GONZA ́ LEZ, Texas 

RICK LARSEN, Washington 

RAUL GRIJALVA, Arizona 

MICHAEL MICHAUD, Maine 

MELISSA BEAN, Illinois 

HENRY CUELLAR, Texas 

DAN LIPINSKI, Illinois 

GWEN MOORE, Wisconsin 

JASON ALTMIRE, Pennsylvania 

BRUCE BRALEY, Iowa 

YVETTE CLARKE, New York 

BRAD ELLSWORTH, Indiana 

HANK JOHNSON, Georgia 

JOE SESTAK, Pennsylvania 

BRIAN HIGGINS, New York 

MAZIE HIRONO, Hawaii 

STEVE CHABOT, Ohio, Ranking Member 

ROSCOE BARTLETT, Maryland 

SAM GRAVES, Missouri 

TODD AKIN, Missouri 

BILL SHUSTER, Pennsylvania 

MARILYN MUSGRAVE, Colorado 

STEVE KING, Iowa 

JEFF FORTENBERRY, Nebraska 

LYNN WESTMORELAND, Georgia 

LOUIE GOHMERT, Texas 

DAVID DAVIS, Tennessee 

MARY FALLIN, Oklahoma 

VERN BUCHANAN, Florida

MICHAEL DAY, Majority Staff Director 

ADAM MINEHARDT, Deputy Staff Director 

TIM SLATTERY, Chief Counsel 

KEVIN FITZPATRICK, Minority Staff Director

Subcommittee on Regulations, Health Care and Trade

CHARLES GONZA ́ LEZ, Texas, Chairman 

RICK LARSEN, Washington 

DAN LIPINSKI, Illinois 

MELISSA BEAN, Illinois 

GWEN MOORE, Wisconsin 

JASON ALTMIRE, Pennsylvania 

JOE SESTAK, Pennsylvania 

LYNN WESTMORELAND, Georgia, Ranking 

BILL SHUSTER, Pennsylvania 

STEVE KING, Iowa 

MARILYN MUSGRAVE, Colorado 

MARY FALLIN, Oklahoma 

VERN BUCHANAN, Florida 

(II) 

C O N T E N T S 

OPENING STATEMENTS 

Page

Gonza ́lez, Hon. Charles ........................................................................................... 1

Westmoreland, Hon. Lynn ...................................................................................... 3

WITNESSES

Hairston, Mr. Darryl, Deputy Associate Administrator, Office of Management 

and Administration, U.S. Small Business Administration ............................... 4

Kichak, Ms. Nancy, Associate Director for Strategic Human Resources Policy, 

Office of Personnel Management ........................................................................ 6

Stalcup, Mr. George, Director, Strategic Issues Government Accountability 

Office ..................................................................................................................... 8

Gil, Mr. William, Vice President, Hispanic Association of Colleges and Universities ...................................................................................................................... 9

Osegueda, Mr. Jose, President and CEO, National Association of Hispanic 

Federal Executives ............................................................................................... 12

APPENDIX 

Prepared Statements: 

Gonza ́lez, Hon. Charles ........................................................................................... 26

Westmoreland, Hon. Lynn ...................................................................................... 28

Altmire, Hon. Jason ................................................................................................. 29

Hairston, Mr. Darryl, Deputy Associate Administrator, Office of Management 

and Administration, U.S. Small Business Administration ............................... 30

Kichak, Ms. Nancy, Associate Director for Strategic Human Resources Policy, 

Office of Personnel Management ........................................................................ 33

Stalcup, Mr. George, Director, Strategic Issues Government Accountability 

Office ..................................................................................................................... 36

Gil, Mr. William, Vice President, Hispanic Association of Colleges and Universities ...................................................................................................................... 56

Osegueda, Mr. Jose, President and CEO, National Association of Hispanic 

Federal Executives ............................................................................................... 61

(III) 

(1)

SUBCOMMITTEE HEARING ON MINORITY 

AND HISPANIC PARTICIPATION IN THE 

FEDERAL WORKFORCE AND THE IMPACT 

ON THE SMALL BUSINESS COMMUNITY 

Wednesday, April 23, 2008

U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, 

COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS, 

Washington, DC. 

The Subcommittee met, pursuant to call, at 12:00 p.m., in Room 

1539 Longworth House Office Building, Hon. Charles Gonza ́lez 

[chairman of the Subcommittee] presiding. 

Present: Representatives Gonza ́lez, Westmoreland, and Moore. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF CHAIRMAN GONZA ́ LEZ 

Chairman GONZA ́LEZ. I call this hearing to order on the Minority 

and Hispanic Participation in the Federal Workforce and the Impact on the Small Business Community. This is a hearing of the 

Subcommittee on Regulations, Health Care and Trade of the bigger 

Committee, the Committee on Small Business, as chaired by Rep. 

Nydia Velaquez. 

And, first of all, I want to thank everyone for being here today. 

This hearing on diversity obviously is very important, even in the 

context of small business, but of course in the greater and bigger 

picture. There are certain individuals that I actually have met with 

before, have worked with, and welcome, it is good to see you 

again.It has been our policy for 40 years that the Federal Government should recognize the importance of diversity. One of the cornerstones of the Small Business Act, for example, is making credit, 

contract opportunities, and business assistance available to all 

small business owners, whatever their background. And that is the 

American way. 

But in another area where diversity is important is in the hiring 

and promoting of a diverse group of highly qualified federal employees. Such a policy ensures that minority groups feel welcome 

to participate fully in the national programs. Although we will talk 

today about government policy that sets rules for all federal hiring, 

I also want to focus attention on Hispanic federal employment and 

the importance it plays in serving the growing Hispanic small business community. 

The witnesses will offer testimony today on how it remains clear 

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force. This is a problem and it does not seem to be getting any better. 

I represent a district in the State of Texas that has a large, vibrant, and growing Hispanic-American community. They are proud 

Americans, and it is important to them to feel connected to their 

government. In the not-too-distant future, one out of every four 

Americans will be Hispanic-Americans. 

Existing law requires the Federal Government to make special 

efforts to evaluate and oversee agency programs for diversity. The 

law provides that recruitment processes prepare those that have 

the potential but do not presently meet valid qualification requirements for job openings through development programs. Federal 

agencies are supposed to proactively seek those out and prepare 

those who will help meet the agency needs for succession of leadership and competence in the future. 

Unfortunately, the data paints a picture of how the Federal Government is missing its mark. In the pathway positions for top executive level—and that would be the SES designation—Hispanic hiring has dropped by 2.8 percent. The latest OPM report cites a reduction from 5.8 percent to 3.2 percent of Latinos in management 

positions entering the SES. 

It appears that the majority of Hispanic hires in the federal 

workforce are concentrated at the GS-1 through 8 categories. So 

Congress, in our oversight capacity, needs to hold agencies accountable. We are working on some proposals that would strengthen the 

hiring process, particularly for leadership succession. 

There have been proposals to address this problem. One of those 

is, of course, H.R. 3774, the Senior Executive Senior Diversity Assurance Act introduced by our colleague, Mr. Davis of Illinois, 

which has been reported favorably out of the Subcommittee on 

Oversight and Government Reform, and I believe will be voted by 

the full Committee tomorrow. 

The legislation will go a long way in strengthening the federal 

system of selecting our Senior Executive Service. However, where 

I believe further efforts will be needed. 

This Small Business Committee has oversight over the Small 

Business Administration, and I believe there are ways to implement reforms at the SBA to serve as a model for improving overall 

federal hiring practices. This could be achieved by setting up an office in the SBA that will coordinate and focus on diversity hiring 

and outreach. It would also promote efforts to ensure that the review panels and the selection panels for SBA executives are themselves diverse. 

Additionally, there needs to be added transparency to SBA’s executive selection process with data reporting and direct annual accountability to the Congress—this transparent process not only to 

the Senior Executive Service but also to GS-13, 14, and 15 levels, 

where SBA’s future leaders are retained, trained, and encouraged. 

These are just some of the ideas I think we could start discussing 

as a basis for improving hiring practices. I will be very interested, 

of course, in the opinions of the panels here today. It is clear that 

further progress is needed. While there have been greater strides 

made in the past 40 years for women and minorities in securing 

senior positions in our Federal Government, it appears that more 

3

needs to be done. Without additional reforms now, it may create 

even greater challenges down the line. 

I look forward to the testimony of the witnesses here today, and 

thank them for their participation and service. 

And now it is my pleasure and privilege to yield to the Ranking 

Member, Mr. Westmoreland, for his opening statement. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF MR. WESTMORELAND 

Mr. WESTMORELAND. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and especially 

thank you for holding this hearing today. I would also like to thank 

the witnesses for their participation, and I am sure that your testimony today will prove helpful to us in looking into this matter. 

One of the most celebrated aspects of our nation is its diversity, 

and nowhere is that diversity more evident than in our workforce. 

People from all walks of life have helped to make their mark on 

our country, adding a piece of themselves into the collection of 

ideas we call America. I believe that it is vital that the composition 

of the federal workforce resemble the great nation that it serves. 

It is extremely important that we continue to attract the best and 

brightest citizens into federal employment in order to address the 

many challenges that we face. 

I welcome this distinguished panel, and I thank you for your 

willingness to come and to testify. And, again, Mr. Chairman, 

thank you for having this timely hearing.

Chairman GONZA ́LEZ. I thank the ranking member. And, as always, I have always appreciated his cooperation. And I think that 

we see eye to eye on so many things, contrary to what you might 

be reading in the papers all the time about the partisanship, and 

I look forward to working in the future on another hearing that I 

will be discussing with you probably on the floor when we get a 

minute. 

I would like to give an opportunity to my colleague, Gwen Moore, 

Congresswoman Gwen Moore from the great State of Wisconsin, if 

she so wishes, to make an opening statement.

Ms. MOORE. I will pass, Mr. Chairman.

Chairman GONZA ́LEZ. Thank you very much. 

At this time, I am going to be introducing members of the panel, 

the witnesses here today. I am going to go ahead and go through 

the introductions for all of them, and then we will start, of course, 

with Mr. Hairston. 

Mr. Darryl Hairston of the Small Business Administration was 

appointed as Deputy Associate Administrator for the Small Business Administration in September 2003. In that position, Mr. Hairston has overall responsibility for contracts and grants management, property management, and building operations, safety, and 

emergency services, and administrative information management. 

The United States Small Business Administration was created in 

1953 as an independent agency of the Federal Government to aid, 

counsel, assist, and protect the interest of small business concerns. 

Again, thank you and welcome. 

4

And now I am going to see if I am going to get your name right 

this time as opposed to the last hearing we had. Nancy Kichak—

pretty close?—is the Associate Director for the Human Resources 

Policy Division in the Office of Personnel Management. In this position, she leads the design, development, and implementation of 

federal human resource policies. 

She previously held the position of Deputy Associate Director for 

the Center for Workforce Planning and Policy Analysis and Chief 

Actuary. The United States Office of Personnel Management—

OPM—is an independent agency of the United States Government 

that manages the civil service of the Federal Government. 

Mr. George Stalcup—Mr. Stalcup is a familiar face to my office, 

because of some work we have done in the past. And, again, it is 

good to see you, sir. He is the Director for Strategic Issues in the 

Government Accountability Office. In his role, Mr. Stalcup has 

overseen GAO studies in federal workforce and hiring issues. He 

will report on the GAO’s review of the minority recruitment and 

hiring data at the Small Business Administration. 

The United States Government Accountability Office, GAO, is an 

independent, non-partisan agency that works for Congress. GAO 

investigates how the Federal Government spends taxpayer dollars. 

Mr. William Gil of HACU, the Hispanic Association of Colleges 

and Universities, he is the Associate Vice President. HACU was established in 1986 and represents more than 450 colleges and universities committed to Hispanic higher education success in the 

United States, Puerto Rico, Latin America, Spain, and Portugal. It 

is the only national educational association that represents Hispanic-serving institutions. 

HACU also provides assistance and outreach to Hispanic-serving 

institutions by hosting technical assistance workshops throughout 

the country on available federal programs, grants, and other resources. Prior to joining HACU, Mr. Gil served as Executive Director of the Congressional Hispanic Caucus. And welcome to you. 

Mr. Jose Osegueda—he is President and CEO of the National Association of Hispanic Federal Executives. This organization is the 

premier organization advocating for the development and advancement of Hispanics to senior-level policy-making positions in the 

Federal Government. Through their events and work, they provide 

networking opportunities as well as training to federal employees 

striving for the highest ranks in public service. 

Again, welcome one and all. Please understand that you do have 

five minutes. I think we just had this fancy equipment installed in 

the past few weeks. It will give you a warning signal and such. 

And if you need to summarize, if you would please do that. Believe 

me, during the question and answer period, you will be given sufficient time to elaborate if you feel you didn’t cover it in your opening statement. 

With that, Mr. Hairston. 

STATEMENT OF MR. DARRYL HAIRSTON, DEPUTY ASSOCIATE 

ADMINISTRATOR, OFFICE OF MANAGEMENT AND ADMINISTRATION, U.S. SMALL BUSINESS ADMINISTRATION 

Mr. HAIRSTON. Chairman Gonza ́lez, Ranking Member Westmoreland, members of the Committee, my name is Darryl Hairston. 

5

Thank you for inviting me here to testify on SBA’s hiring policies 

and our continuing efforts at minority recruitment. 

SBA takes seriously both the spirit and the intent of federal 

guidelines regarding the promotion of diversity in the federal workplace, and SBA is committed to addressing the diversity of our 

workforce and to increasing the representation of women, minorities, and persons with disabilities. 

As of September 30, 2007, the agency’s workforce totaled 5,056, 

which included our temporary disaster workforce. Minority groups, 

which accounted for 39.63 percent of the total workforce, decreased 

from 2,635 in fiscal year 2006 to 2,004 in fiscal year 2007 due primarily to losses of temporary workforce hired to service disaster 

loans following Hurricane Katrina. 

In fiscal year 2007, SBA had a population of 48.22 percent male 

and 51.78 percent female employees. Twenty-six percent were 

black, 8.47 percent were Hispanic, 4.17 percent were Asian, and .93 

percent were American-Indian or Alaska Native American. Of 

these groups, black males, black females, Asian females, AmericanIndian or Alaska Native American male and female representation 

was above the civilian labor force. 

Reviews of the grade levels for permanent employees indicate 

that a significant number of the employees—28.88 percent—at the 

SBA are at the GS-12 level or above. Current fiscal year 2008 data 

indicates that SBA’s total staffing is 5,034, of which 2,307 are other 

than disaster employees. Of this group, 1,220 are at the GS-13 

level or above. 58.9 percent are male, 41.1 percent are female, 

21.88 percent are black, 8 percent are Hispanic, 5.49 percent are 

Asian-Americans, and .73 percent are American-Indian or Alaska 

Native American. 

SBA has a total of 39 career employees at the SES level, of which 

41 percent are minorities. Of these senior executives, 12.8 percent 

are Hispanic, 25.6 percent are black, and 2.56 percent are Asian. 

Most SES positions at SBA are located in our headquarters offices 

in Washington, D.C. However, seven SES positions are located in 

our major metropolitan district offices. 

The SBA is a small agency and does limited hiring on an annual 

basis. For example, in fiscal year 2006, SBA hired 113 permanent 

employees, and 128 in fiscal year 2007. When hiring, SBA’s Office 

of Human Capital Management strives to ensure diversity on our 

ranking panels. We have found that this strategy pays off in increasing diversity in our workforce. 

In fiscal year 2007, the agency employed several recruitment 

strategies to build a diverse workforce. One of the most effective 

tools we use to accomplish this is to actively participate in job fairs 

and federal career days at colleges and universities, and we often 

target schools that are likely to help us establish a pipeline of diverse and highly qualified individuals. 

We continue to target community colleges because of their strong 

ties to their local communities and their potential for providing diverse applicant pools. Some of the events SBA participated in are 

the Presidential Management Fellows job fair, the Congressional 

Black Caucus Diversity fair, the LatPro National Society for Hispanic Professionals, and the Thurgood Marshall Scholarship Fund 

recruitment event. 

6

These efforts only reflect efforts here in the Washington, D.C. 

area, but nationwide our staff participates in job fairs with colleges, universities, professional organizations, and others to broaden SBA’s reach to attract a diverse group of high-caliber applicants 

who are in mission critical positions. 

Additionally, we also utilize USAJOBS as a recruiting tool. Because of the technical nature of many of our mission critical occupations, we found that the best recruiting tool has been word of 

mouth. By utilizing our network of resource partners, educational 

institutions, and others, we have achieved great success in attracting a diverse group of highly qualified applicants. 

SBA recruitment initiatives are complemented by two things: 

training and succession planning. The Administrator has made 

training a major priority at SBA and has instituted a new personnel-focused training program called SBA University. This initiative came as a direct response to employee surveys that showed 

that such a need existed. 

Through training, SBA seeks to develop a highly skilled workforce with tools they need for advancement and career development. SBA also has its SES candidate program to facilitate leadership succession. The last program was run in 2004. We had 18 individuals selected to participate; 14 graduated. Of the 18 selected, 

2 were Hispanic, 3 were Black Americans, and 6 were females. 

Be assured that SBA has been, and will continue to be, proactive 

with its recruitment efforts by building and strengthening external 

partnerships, eliminating barriers that may be exclusive, and providing challenging and rewarding opportunities. 

Thank you for inviting me to testify, and I would be happy to answer any questions you have. 

[The prepared statement of Mr. Hairston may be found in the 

Appendix on page 30.]

Chairman GONZA ́LEZ. Thank you very much, Mr. Hairston. 

Our next witness will be the Associate Director, Nancy Kichak. 

STATEMENT OF MS. NANCY KICHAK, ASSOCIATE DIRECTOR 

FOR STRATEGIC HUMAN RESOURCES POLICY, OFFICE OF 

PERSONNEL MANAGEMENT 

Ms. KICHAK. Chairman Gonza ́lez, Ranking Member Westmoreland, and members of the Subcommittee, I appreciate your inviting 

me to discuss OPM’s efforts to improve the overall diversity of the 

federal workforce. I welcome the opportunity to discuss with you 

our efforts to build and sustain the most effective federal civilian 

workforce possible. 

We have long recognized that reaching the broadest possible pool 

of applicants for federal jobs is essential to meeting this goal. Our 

efforts in this regard are conducted within the framework of the 

merit system principles. We must ensure that all Americans have 

equal access to federal employment opportunities at all levels of the 

workforce and that their knowledge, skills, and abilities are evaluated fairly. 

The Office of Personnel Management promotes federal employment expansively, including in the areas where the potential applicant pool is very diverse. One of the techniques we use is conVerDate 0ct 09 2002 16:30 May 22, 2008 Jkt 033615 PO 00000 Frm 00010 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 G:\CLERK SB-LD\HEARINGS\TRANSCRIPTS\40857.TXT LEANN
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ducting job fairs and federal career days at colleges and universities, including community colleges that are likely to help us establish a pipeline of diverse and highly qualified individuals. 

We conducted a federal career day last year at Northern Virginia 

Community College, one of the nation’s largest and most diverse 

community colleges, with students representing over 150 nationalities. In addition, two of the four federal career days OPM sponsored last fall took place at the University of New Mexico and New 

Mexico State University. These are two of the nation’s leading Hispanic-serving institutions. 

Earlier this year, OPM supported career fairs at Alabama State 

University and the Tuskegee Institute—two historically black institutions. As part of our effort to cast the widest possible net, OPM 

also launched a television ad campaign entitled ‘‘What Did You do 

at Your Job Today?’’ to spark interest in federal employment. We 

aired these ads in targeted markets where we believe there is likely to be an ample supply of individuals who have the qualifications, 

skills, and experience the Federal Government needs in its workforce. 

We have seen a consistent spike in visits to our USAJOBS web 

site after the ads have aired. The ads feature federal employees 

drawn from diverse backgrounds and feature a wide variety of professions and agencies. These outreach efforts are part of a larger 

long-term effort designed to address the increasing numbers of federal employees becoming eligible for retirement in the next few 

years. 

Succession planning is a crucial element of OPM’s efforts to develop a strong cadre of future leaders at all levels. Major departments and agencies are required, under the human capital scorecard in the President’s management agenda, to put in place an approved leadership succession plan and to meet the plan’s milestones and targets. 

Candidate development programs are a recommended part of 

agency leadership succession plans. These programs must address 

the executive core qualifications that OPM has identified as critical 

for assessing and developing future leaders. The ECQs, as we call 

them, include fostering an inclusive workplace where diversity and 

individual differences are valued. 

OPM reports to Congress annually on minority representation in 

the Federal Government in relation to the overall civilian labor 

force. Our most recent report was submitted to the Congress in 

January. The report shows that the Federal Government continues 

to compare favorably to the civilian labor force in employing minorities, with the exception of Hispanics. 

The Federal Government also employs a slightly lower percentage of women than the non-federal sector. The report also shows 

that the overall minority representation has continued to grow 

since the previous report. 

In conclusion, I want to assure you that OPM shares your goal 

of a federal workforce that is effective in large part because it 

draws on the strengths that a broad and diverse applicant pool offers. This will continue to be our goal with respect to developing 

our future federal civilian workforce. 

I will be happy to take any questions. 

8

[The prepared statement of Ms. Kichak may be found in the Appendix on page 33.]

Chairman GONZA ́LEZ. Thank you very much. 

Our next witness will be Mr. George Stalcup of the GAO. 

STATEMENT OF MR. GEORGE STALCUP, DIRECTOR, 

STRATEGIC ISSUES, GOVERNMENT ACCOUNTABILITY OFFICE 

Mr. STALCUP. Thank you. Mr. Chairman, Ranking Member Westmoreland, Congresswoman Moore, I appreciate the opportunity to 

be here today to provide the Subcommittee with information on diversity, including Hispanic representation of the federal workforce 

and at SBA. The federal government is facing new and more complex challenges in the 21st century, and federal agencies must 

transform their organizations to meet these challenges. 

Human capital management must be the centerpiece of any serious change management strategy. We have work underway reviewing SBA’s organizational transformation efforts. Today, as requested, my remarks will focus on demographic data related to the 

federal government as a whole, and SBA’s workforce, with an emphasis on Hispanic representation. 

As you know, Mr. Chairman, in 2006 and 2007 we reported on 

factors affecting Hispanic representation in the federal workforce 

and efforts being taken by agencies to address representation 

issues. Those reports contain data through September of 2006. 

While we have not done any additional analysis on Hispanic representation since those reports, for this testimony we have added 

Hispanic representation data for 2007. 

We have reported that Hispanics are the fastest-growing segment of the civilian labor force. And according to OPM’s central 

personnel data file, Hispanic representation in the federal workforce increased from 6.6 percent in 2000 to 7.7 percent in 2007. 

Hispanic representation also increased at most agencies during 

that same span, and at five agencies Hispanic representation exceeded the 7.7 percent government-wide percentage—DHS, Justice, 

SBA, SSA, and Treasury. 

Now, of those five, representation at two—Justice and SBA—declined between 2000 and 2007. While we have not done this analysis, the decline at Justice may be related to the establishment of 

DHS and related movement of staff. 

We also looked at various pay plans and grades across government, from blue collar through SES, and found that between 2000 

and 2007 Hispanic representation increased in nearly all categories. As shown in my full statement, at SBA, while Hispanic 

representation remained higher than the government-wide percentage within most levels, there was a decline in those percentages 

from 2000 to 2007 in the majority of the pay plan/grade categories. 

For SES, we recently looked more closely at representation 

among those who are career, or permanent, appointments. These 

leadership positions are critical. Having a diverse SES core, which 

generally represents the most experienced segment of the federal 

workforce, can be an organizational strength and can bring a wider 

variety of perspectives and approaches to bear on policy developVerDate 0ct 09 2002 16:30 May 22, 2008 Jkt 033615 PO 00000 Frm 00012 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 G:\CLERK SB-LD\HEARINGS\TRANSCRIPTS\40857.TXT LEANN
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ment and implementation, strategic planning, problem solving, and 

decisionmaking. 

As shown in our full statement, the two greatest changes among 

EEO groups within the career SES government-wide from 2000 to 

2007 was a decrease among Whites and an increase among Hispanics. Within the GS-15 and 14 levels, considered the developmental pool for the SES, the largest changes from 2000 to 2007 

were a decrease among Whites and an increase among AfricanAmericans. 

Similar to government-wide career SES, the two greatest 

changes among EEO groups within the career SES at SBA from 

2000 to 2007 was a decrease among Whites and an increase among 

Hispanics. However, with fewer than 40 total SES members at 

SBA, it should be noted that even small changes will have a notable impact on representation percentages. 

Unlike the increase in the number of career SES governmentwide from 2000 to 2007, the number of SESers at SBA declined 

slightly. We did not analyze the factors that contributed to changes 

in SBA’s workforce during this period. However, OPM and EEOC, 

in their oversight roles, require federal agencies, including SBA, to 

analyze their workforces, and both the EEOC and OPM report annually on government-wide representation levels. 

Similar to the government-wide SES developmental pool, the two 

greatest changes among EEO groups within SBA’s developmental 

pool from 2000 to 2007 were a decrease among Whites and an increase among African-Americans. Hispanic representation in the 

SES developmental pool declined slightly at SBA but remained 

above the Hispanic representation percentage for the governmentwide SES developmental pool. 

In 2006, OPM reported that approximately 60 percent of the executive branch’s 1.6 million white-collar employees and 90 percent 

of about 6,000 federal executives will be eligible for retirement over 

the next 10 years. Although most employees do not retire immediately upon becoming eligible, the looming retirement eligibility of 

federal executives at agencies such as SBA present both a need for 

effective succession planning and an opportunity to affect workforce 

diversity. 

In an October 2007 report, the SBA Inspector General identified 

effective succession planning as a management challenge for SBA. 

SBA acknowledged the need for additional efforts in this area and 

has taken some positive steps. 

This concludes my remarks, and I will be happy to answer any 

questions. 

[The prepared statement of Mr. Stalcup may be found in the Appendix on page 36.]

Chairman GONZA ́LEZ. Thank you very much, Mr. Stalcup. 

Our next witness will be William Gil, Vice President of the Hispanic Association of Colleges and University. Mr. Gil. 

STATEMENT OF MR. WILLIAM GIL, VICE PRESIDENT, 

HISPANIC ASSOCIATION OF COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES 

Mr. GIL. Good morning, Chairman Gonza ́lez, Ranking Member 

Westmoreland, and other distinguished members of the SubVerDate 0ct 09 2002 16:30 May 22, 2008 Jkt 033615 PO 00000 Frm 00013 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 G:\CLERK SB-LD\HEARINGS\TRANSCRIPTS\40857.TXT LEANN
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committee. HACU welcomes the opportunity to provide insight on 

the critical role we are playing in assisting increase Hispanic representation in the Federal Government. 

HACU represents over 450 colleges and universities committed 

to higher education success in the United States and Puerto Rico. 

Collectively, these institutions enroll more than 4.8 million students. There are almost two million Hispanics enrolled in college 

today, with HACU member institutions enrolling 1.2 million of 

these students. HACU is the only national education association 

that represents Hispanic-Serving Institutions. 

As we have heard from Chairman Gonza ́lez, due to the increase 

in the Hispanic population, it can be said that our nation’s economic and social success rests on the level of skills and knowledge 

that Hispanics will attain. Education indisputably is the key. 

HACU is committed to Hispanic success in education. 

To this end, HACU maintains more than 30 formal memoranda 

of understanding and partnership agreements with federal agencies, offices, and businesses, to increase infrastructure at member 

institutions and create opportunities for their students. One of the 

most highly regarded programs for introducing Hispanics into careers in the Federal Government is the HACU National Internship 

Program. 

This program began in 1992 with 24 students working in Washington, D.C. The success of this initial endeavor led to the rapid expansion of the program to other federal agencies. For example, during 2007, the program welcomed 626 students participating in 25 

federal agencies and 6 private corporations in Washington, D.C. 

and throughout the entire country. 

These individuals came from 34 states and Puerto Rico. The academic background of these students were also diverse in that they 

represented 100 different academic majors, including engineering, 

human resources, communications, business, finance, electronics, 

computer science, law, and law enforcement, among some of the 

ones we would like to mention. 

The program has also been well recognized for its contributions. 

For example, the HACU National Internship Program is point 4 in 

OPM’s nine-point Hispanic employment plan. Moreover, OPM Director has also recognized that the internship program and the 

HACU Cooperative Education Program as best practice tools for 

the recruitment of Hispanics into the federal workforce. Both programs directly respond to Executive Order 13171. 

The benefit of partnering with HACU is that we complete a lot 

of the groundwork for federal agencies for recruiting at member institutions, prescreening in matching a student’s academic background with an agency’s mission critical occupation needs. We also 

coordinate the student’s travel and facilitate housing. 

Through partnering with HACU, federal agencies have been able 

to offer internships and permanent positions for thousands of Hispanics. Over the past 15 years, the program has provided professional development opportunities for over 7,000 students. To measure the impact of the program, an independent analysis was completed in 2007. The results show that the program clearly increases 

professional career opportunities for program participants and is 

11

truly a best practice in the recruitment of Hispanics in the federal 

workforce. 

Survey highlights include: as a result of the internship experience, over 90 percent of the participants consider working with the 

Federal Government. That is a 44 percent increase compared to 

their intentions prior to completing their internship. Nearly 38 percent of the survey respondents now work in the Federal Government. Eighty-five percent of the participants expect that their internship experience will be useful to them 10 years from now. 

The report’s conclusion was that the program has changed the 

lives of many students for the better. It has fostered learning and 

development career abilities and provided the Federal Government 

and other agencies with an educated, experienced pool of potential 

employees. 

Internship programs like the HACU National Internship Program are critical to bridging the chasm that currently exists between Hispanic college students and federal agencies by introducing college students to the opportunity that that exists in the 

Federal Government and addressing the desire to become part of 

the federal workforce. 

Since 2000, Hispanics have accounted for half of the population 

growth in the United States. However, Hispanics are the only 

underrepresented ethnic group in the federal workforce, comprising 

7.7 versus 13.3 of the civilian labor force. As the numbers of enrolled Hispanics in the United States increase and improve, the 

percentage of Hispanic representation in the Federal workforce is 

not keeping pace. 

As we all know, studies estimate that the Federal Government 

may lose almost half of its workforce in the next decade. One of the 

most obvious recruitment strategies is that federal agencies should 

conduct outreach and recruitment activities where Hispanic students are found in higher numbers. Specifically, federal agencies 

need to develop strategic partnerships with Hispanic-Serving Institutions, since they enroll the majority of Hispanics in college today. 

Federal agencies should also look to establish and maintain lasting relationships with HSIs, the department and schools where 

they find students, and agencies should look to increase the number of Hispanic students at participating existing federal student 

programs. 

Lastly, federal agencies should develop an effective student internship program with Hispanic organizations that have access to 

Hispanic college students that can serve as third party internship 

providers. 

A truly representative government workforce is an important 

public policy goal, since it affects the government’s ability to meet 

the needs of its citizens. 

That is the end of my statement, and I am happy to answer any 

questions. 

[The prepared statement of Mr. Gil may be found in the Appendix on page 56.]

Chairman GONZA ́LEZ. Thank you very much, Mr. Gil. 

12

The testimony will now be heard of Mr. Jose Osegueda, President 

and CEO for the National Association of Hispanic Federal Executives. 

STATEMENT OF MR. JOSE OSEGUEDA, PRESIDENT AND CEO, 

NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF HISPANIC FEDERAL EXECUTIVES 

Mr. OSEGUEDA. Chairman Gonza ́lez, Congressman Westmoreland, and members of the Subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity to appear before you today. 

I recently retired from the Federal Government, and I am a live 

witness of the difficulties facing Hispanics in our quest to reach the 

highest ranks of public service. NAHFE is an organization that 

represents all senior-level Hispanics in the Federal Government, 

and I am proud to speak on their behalf here today. 

The current selection methodology for senior-level positions in 

the Federal Government has not produced any improvement on 

Hispanic representation at the senior levels of the Federal Government workforce. Hispanics represent 3.6 percent of the career SES 

cadre, while making up 13.8 percent of the national civilian labor 

force. Using the most conservative calculations, this means that 

Hispanics today are underrepresented by close to 500 career SES 

positions. 

To make matters less encouraging, Hispanic representation at 

the feeder positions leading to the career SES level declined by 2.8 

percent, or 579 positions, from 2006 to 2007. Without a robust presence in the feeder pipelines, and strong measures of accountability, 

future Hispanic representation at the senior-level positions in government will only get worse. 

NAHFE believes one answer to successfully diversifying the senior-level ranks of government is to set in place and to enforce 

meaningful systems of accountability, so that managers and supervisors may be held accountable for effectively carrying out their 

legal mandate to implement and promote equal employment opportunity and diversity programs. 

In fact, a number of accountability tools are already in place. 

They just haven’t been effectively monitored or enforced. This culture of non-accountability has resulted in disgraceful levels of Hispanic representation at SES levels in federal agencies that should 

be leaders in diversity. 

That Hispanic underrepresentation in the federal workforce has 

reached crisis proportions is clearly illustrated by these telling statistics. Hispanics remain the only underrepresented ethnic group, 

at 7.7 percent, in the overall government workforce. When compared to their present level of representation in the national civilian labor force, 13.8 percent, there is a Hispanic underrepresentation gap of 6.1 percent or 120,000 jobs, at $5.5 billion in salaries 

alone, to the Hispanic community. 

With the average hiring rate of .13 percent over the past 40 

years, Hispanic representation in the federal workforce will never 

reach parity with their numbers in the national civilian labor force. 

NAHFE fully supports the Subcommittee initiative to introduce 

legislation to establish an Executive Resource Office within the 

Small Business Administration to ensure the SBA executives reflect the nation’s diversity. NAHFE has consistently emphasized 

13

the need for accurate and timely data on current positions of filled, 

vacant, and candidate for career SES positions. 

The responsibility for accountability in diversity selections rests 

with the recruitment and selection process. And the record speaks 

loud and clear that leaving independent authority for ensuring diversity in career SES selections with agencies will not improve the 

dismal bottom line. One only need to look at the current level of 

Hispanic representation in several key executive agencies to understand it is time to abandon the failed SES selection methods of the 

past and turn to new, creative ideas for improving diversity at the 

senior levels of government. 

For these reasons, NAHFE supports and commends the Subcommittee for introducing legislation that will create the accountability part of the process that has been missing all along. NAHFE 

shares the goal of bringing greater diversity to the federal executive corps. 

We do not believe that continuing to rely on the failed SES selection methodology of the past will yield different, more positive results. It is time to turn over a new leaf and dramatically improve 

the SES selection process. We believe that they will signal a welcome change toward improving diversity at the senior levels of government. 

Chairman Gonza ́lez and members of the Subcommittee, I thank 

you for the opportunity to share our views and support for the SBA 

Executive Diversity Act. 

[The prepared statement of Mr. Osegueda may be found in the 

Appendix on page 61.]

Chairman GONZA ́LEZ. Thank you very much, Mr. Osegueda. 

The chair is going to recognize himself for five minutes of questioning. And I am going to keep to my five minutes, because I know 

the other members—we started at kind of an awkward hour, but 

this was the only time that was going to be available given our 

schedule. But I will reserve the right to actually follow up on some 

other questions, because I know I am not going to get everything 

out in five minutes. 

So I will start my five minutes now. And I guess the question 

will go to Mr. Stalcup to kind of get an overview of the process or 

mechanism that we have at the federal level to ensure that, whether it is legislation or through regulation or through executive order, 

that a real effort is being made by the agencies and departments 

of the Federal Government to have a diverse and very qualified 

workforce. 

But who is truly responsible, one, for identifying best practices, 

making recommendations to all of the governmental agencies, departments, and entities as to what they should be doing. And, of 

course, I think as Mr. Osegueda may have already alluded to, and 

monitoring, because we have had this discussion before, and I 

think I know the answer, but you are the GAO, and basically you 

identified the different entities that have different responsibilities. 

So what would be your answer? 

Mr. STALCUP. Well, to a large extent, those responsibilities are 

shared between EEOC and OPM. Both organizations require agencies to analyze their workforces—and in the end, under any sceVerDate 0ct 09 2002 16:30 May 22, 2008 Jkt 033615 PO 00000 Frm 00017 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 G:\CLERK SB-LD\HEARINGS\TRANSCRIPTS\40857.TXT LEANN
14

nario, that is step one. They need to understand their workforces, 

not only just in terms of numbers, but how they align with agency 

mission and what the needs are. 

Both EEOC and OPM require agencies to annually report on 

what they are doing in terms of identifying any barriers that are 

there and what they are doing to address those barriers. In the 

study that we did with you, Mr. Chairman, we looked at how OPM 

and EEOC carried out this function on a government-wide basis, 

and they do collect this information, they do summarize it, and 

they do annually report to Congress on those numbers. 

What we have not looked at—and it is a fair question—is what 

those organizations are doing directly with the agencies based on 

what is reported to them. 

Chairman GONZA ́LEZ. And I know that when GAO assumes one 

of—responsibility that Congress will make a request that you will 

assume—you are very, very careful to always stay within the 

guidelines or boundaries of what is being asked and not to expand 

or go beyond. And I know when we were talking about diversity in 

numbers, you usually will identify how an agency or a department 

may be meeting those particular numbers, what policies, and so on. 

Then, you look at OPM, EEOC, and what they are doing. 

But do you identify, or has that ever been part of your charge, 

to identify what would be the best practices, or any shortcomings 

in identifying best practices? It has been my experience that basically you can give us a birds-eye view of where we are and where 

the numbers, but not necessarily, again, policy-wise. Are the policies good policies? Are the policies effective? Should they be doing 

something else? Should there be some sort of an accountability 

mechanism? 

Have you ever looked at that? And if you have, if you could tell 

me what you think you have found. 

Mr. STALCUP. We have looked at that, Mr. Chairman. We did a 

fairly robust study going back several years. The report came out 

in 2005. What we did was we surveyed experts throughout the 

country in all levels and disciplines to get ideas about what they 

thought were the keys to good diversity management. 

We then built a list of best practices based on what we learned 

from those folks. There are eight or ten practices on there. It starts 

with top leadership commitment. It involves recruitment, it involves succession planning. It involves integrating human capital 

into the strategic plan. 

And we went out to select agencies, I believe it was five agencies, 

and looked at how those kinds of things—what they were doing in 

those areas in terms of techniques and what worked well. And that 

report is available on GAO’s web site. It is a very good report, has 

a lot of good information in it. 

Chairman GONZA ́LEZ. Thank you very much. 

And then, this question is to Ms. Kichak. And that is, I think we 

understand the role that you play and that you outlined in your 

testimony. And I have less than a minute, but, quickly, what 

about—I know that you make suggestions, you identify best practices, and you kind of monitor and, again, evaluate. Is there any 

accountability if in fact you identify an agency or a department 

15

that is not following those suggestions or recommendations that 

you promulgate? 

Ms. KICHAK. Okay. The method of accountability for us is 

through the federal human capital scorecard and reporting on 

their—on agencies’ activities to build a diverse workforce. And that 

is the scorecard that is the red, yellow, green rating for agencies, 

and that shows how they are progressing. That is our accountability. 

Other than the report that we publish, the Hispanic report is 

very extensive as far as the data it reports, and it shows the data 

per agency. So there is also the publication of how agencies are 

doing, the shining the light on their data. 

Chairman GONZA ́LEZ. Well, thank you very much. And my time 

is up, but we will come back and follow up with the other witnesses. 

It is my pleasure to recognize the Ranking Member, Mr. Westmoreland, for any questions he may have. 

Mr. WESTMORELAND. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Hairston, you got pretty specific with the percentages of the 

minorities at the SBA. Is there—do you look at those numbers 

when jobs become available? Is there a magic number that you try 

to keep minorities at when you are hiring in—you know, I mean, 

how does that play into the hiring? 

Mr. HAIRSTON. Well, first and foremost, when we are recruiting 

and hiring, we are first and foremost trying to make certain that 

we abide by merit principles and hiring in the federal sector. But 

as we hire for our mission critical positions, as I mentioned earlier, 

we do do extensive outreach in recruiting. We have been very successful using our network of partners and organizations to get the 

word out about mission critical jobs. 

And for the most part our practices are, and have been, to make 

certain that we have diversity in our ranking and reviewing panels, 

and that when we are actually recruiting for what we consider to 

be our mission critical positions, that we are able to develop what 

we consider to be a diverse, highly qualified applicant pool, and in 

making those selections that we are trying to make the best selections we can make. 

Fortunately, in doing so, we have been successful in attracting 

good applicant pools, and we have made those selections based on 

the qualifications of the individuals that applied, and we have been 

able to achieve these numbers. I think what is important is is that 

it is a common practice for us. We hold ourselves accountable for 

achieving those results. 

Our human capital office and our EEO office collaborate very 

closely on an ongoing basis, so we are always aware of where we 

stand in respect to these types of numbers and our diversity in the 

workforce. But, more importantly, we value the quality of the diversity. And I can’t honestly say that every time that we have a 

position on the street that we are looking at these numbers and 

keeping that in mind. 

Mr. WESTMORELAND. Thank you. I am going to call you Mr. O, 

if that is okay. Mr. O, is the Hispanic community—and, Mr. Gil, 

you can jump in on this, too—are you satisfied with the numbers 

that are at the SBA or in the federal workforce as a whole? 

16

Mr. OSEGUEDA. Certainly not. We are looking at historic data, 

and we have come to the conclusion that Hispanic representation—

that Hispanics are underrepresented government-wide and especially at the SES level. As I indicated earlier, we have some data 

to substantiate this. 

There are at least 500 positions that could be filled by Hispanics, 

if we are going to reach parity. Hispanics are the only ethnic minority that is underrepresented in the Federal Government. 

Mr. WESTMORELAND. Do you think, from the explanation Mr. 

Hairston just gave, which I thought was a very good explanation 

of the hiring practices, do you think there is anything that they 

need to do to improve on that? Or did that sound fair to you, what 

he mentioned? 

Mr. OSEGUEDA. One of the things that we advocate is to be at 

the table when the selection process takes place. But one of the 

things that we have complained in the past is that the actual data 

of SES positions available, filled, and the candidates who apply for 

these positions is not really available. 

So we cannot really tell you, okay, these are the many positions 

in the Federal Government at the SES level. These are the efforts 

for individual agencies to recruit for these positions and who, in 

fact, is applying for these positions and who is actually selected. 

Mr. WESTMORELAND. Mr. Gil? 

Mr. GIL. I would concur with Mr. Osegueda’s comments. I guess 

the largest issue for the Latino community is the lack of clarity in 

the selection process that currently is in place. And so, in that 

sense, we want to be equitable partners in the process. However, 

we have no—we don’t really know what we are trying to—

Mr. WESTMORELAND. I guess my question, you know, boiled down 

to: do you think that the Hispanic worker or applicant needs to 

have an advantage over anybody else? And, if you do, at what percentage do you think that the Hispanic workforce needs to be at? 

Mr. OSEGUEDA. Our position is that we want to have the opportunity—I don’t think we are claiming here to have an advantage 

on anything, but to have the opportunity to compete and to be at 

the table when the decisions are made. 

Mr. GIL. We are essentially saying that we let—we request nothing more or less than effective federal outreach in hiring and employee retention. We simply request a fair chance. 

Congressman, I think what the Latino community’s concern is is 

the long-term impact, especially as our community continues to 

grow in demographics and numbers, and the long-term implications 

for the United States in having individuals in positions of power 

who are making decisions about our community. We may not have 

individuals within those ranks who know what these impacts may 

have. 

We are not asking for a certain number or making this a civil 

rights issue. We are just asking for the opportunity to be part of 

the process. 

Mr. WESTMORELAND. And I appreciate it, and hopefully we will 

have a chance to come back and ask some more. Thank you very 

much. 

Chairman GONZA ́LEZ. Thank you, Mr. Westmoreland. 

17

The chair will recognize Ms. Moore for any questions she may 

have. 

Ms. MOORE. Well, thank you so much for convening this distinguished panel, Mr. Chairman. 

I guess I will get right to the questioning and briefly ask Mr.—

maybe it is not an appropriate question for Mr. Hairston. Maybe 

it is more an appropriate question for Ms. Kichak or Mr. Stalcup. 

But I want to refer to Mr. Hairston’s testimony. 

You mentioned that the workforce at the SBA lost 631 people 

due to losses in your temporary workforce hired to service disaster 

loans from Hurricane Katrina. Is that a typical entry point into the 

Federal Government, to hire minorities for temporary—as a temporary workforce, I can imagine—and correct me if I am wrong, 

Mr. Hairston—that there were lots of needs for translation and 

other services that only perhaps Hispanics or others could provide, 

and you hired that temporary workforce. 

Is there any formal sort of effort to harvest those temporary 

work experiences, to put them in the queue for upward mobility? 

Mr. HAIRSTON. I would certainly say that when we ramp up for 

disaster activity, and particularly the magnitude of Hurricane 

Katrina, we are reaching out and hiring as many people from all 

walks of life as we can possibly do as fast as we can. We also do 

keep in mind the fact of the diversity of the population that we 

have to serve during those disaster times, and when we do have 

the opportunity to find individuals who are bilingual or representative of the communities that are affected, we certainly take advantage of that. 

To say that that is a good entry point, you would have to say 

that it is a good entry point, because while they are making disaster loans, they are also having the opportunity to become familiar with SBA programs and SBA—

Ms. MOORE. I don’t want to be rude, but I want to ask the OMB 

and GAO, is there some articulation between—first of all, how 

widespread is this temporary hiring among federal agencies, not 

just the SBA, and is that, you know, for contract work? And is 

there some formal effort to articulate that into full-time positions? 

Ms. KICHAK. I will take a crack at that. There are lots of temporary jobs filled every year, but they are temporary. In fact, more 

jobs are filled on a temporary basis than on a permanent basis during the year. It depends on how the temporary jobs are filled, but 

generally they are non-competitive. So they include our summer 

hires and our seasonal workers and things like that. 

Ms. MOORE. Okay. Are there different qualifications for—other 

than taking the test? I mean, other than getting—these same folk 

that are hired for temporary workers, would they in fact qualify for 

a regular federal job? 

Ms. KICHAK. They would need to compete for that job. However, 

their experience as a temporary worker would be very valuable in 

helping them compete favorably. 

Ms. MOORE. Are there any formalized programs to say, ‘‘Hey, you 

have been a temporary worker, we have this fast-growing—we 

have this Executive Order’’—and I—with all due respect, this is a 

civil rights issue. To have the fastest-growing population in the 

18

United States be woefully underrepresented in the delivery of Federal Government services. 

So is there any—so, Mr. Chairman, all I am doing with this line 

of questioning, because I am going to run out of time, is just suggest that, in addition to the amazing work that Mr. Gil’s organization has done, that the Hispanic Federal Executives Association is 

doing, that this might be a more straightforward sort of way of 

doing it. 

I guess I would like to ask a question of Mr. Osegueda regarding 

the—his assertion that without a robust presence in the feeder 

pipelines, and strong measures of accountability, future Hispanic 

representation at the senior level of government will only get 

worse. 

You have talked a little bit about how there is no accountability 

for meeting the executive orders, and I guess I would like you to 

expand on that in the remaining time. 

Mr. OSEGUEDA. Yes. I didn’t mention this, but it is included in 

my notes, that the EEOC has failed to enforce the uniform guidelines on employee selection procedures to monitor agency selection 

practices. OMB and OPM have rubber-stamped agency progress in 

implementing the diversity component of the President’s management agenda for the management of human capital. 

And we believe that OPM has failed to effectively monitor and 

enforce the principles of the Executive Order 13171. So that is 

what we are talking about accountability. And what we think is 

that no agency is actually enforcing these diversity practices. So 

agencies are independently doing what they are doing, and that is 

the reason why the hiring of Hispanics is—for the past 44 years 

has been .13 percent. 

Ms. MOORE. Okay. So no one is enforcing what they are doing. 

They are just doing their own thing. 

Mr. OSEGUEDA. That is what our observation is. So that is the 

reason we support this type of legislation. We think that it is going 

to bring into the process that measure of accountability that we 

think we are missing. 

Ms. MOORE. Thank you. I have other questions, but I can see my 

time has expired, Mr. Chairman. I yield back. 

Chairman GONZA ́LEZ. No, no. Thanks very much. I think it was 

very insightful, your line of questioning. And the chair is going to 

recognize himself for some follow-up questions, and then, of course, 

the other members will be also recognized. 

Ms. Kichak, the problem that Congress has, as I see it—this is 

my own view of it—is that we understand we have a couple of 

agencies out there. We have OPM, and we have EEOC, as Mr. 

Stalcup has pointed out, that kind of oversees all of this. But as 

other witnesses have also pointed out, I think the problem is always going to be accountability. 

So even if you are identifying shortcomings, promoting best practices, and an agency or department doesn’t follow through, the 

worst thing that could happen to them is they get a failing mark 

on a scorecard, or there is a newsletter or publication or a site 

somewhere that says you didn’t do very well. 

But it has been my experience, working with Chairwoman Nydia 

Velaquez, that scorecards don’t mean very much to an agency or 

19

a department if there aren’t any consequences. The example I always give is that on bundling in federal contracting, which is a real 

problem, whether you are Republican or Democrat, we believe 

small businesses should have these opportunities. 

Over and over again, each and every department out there of the 

Federal Government fails to meet its contractual obligations, as we 

see it, to make sure the opportunities are extended to small businesses. So we give them an F, we give them a D. The highest one 

I think is a C. Nothing ever changes. And I have always said, 

‘‘Well, there is no accountability. There is no consequence.’’

And I don’t want to say there should be punishment. I am not 

sure what we do about accountability. I don’t know what an agency 

or a department that fails to institute that which you are promoting and identified as good practices and continue to fail and be 

more aggressive in meeting numbers on diversity, I don’t know 

what you do. I am not even going to give you that answer. I am 

not real sure. You know, I always think it is always about budgets, 

but that is an argument for another day. 

So I think Congressman Davis—and I am not speaking for Mr. 

Davis, or any of the other members of the Oversight Committee, 

but I think what they are trying to say is, well, maybe if we have 

someone within OPM that will be—may be more aggressive about 

the manner in which you identify different approaches that you 

will be recommending to agencies, and you still follow through, and 

even then, within those agencies or departments, even having, 

again, a more diverse panel that will be looking at hiring practices, 

so that whatever you promulgate, as it filters down to agencies and 

departments, you actually are mirroring a panel that will be composed—obviously, I think the way Mr. Davis has it I think he has, 

you know, a woman and then a person of color, and so on, that 

would be on this panel. 

I think at the last hearing that I attended with Mr. Davis you 

did not embrace that piece of legislation. I am not speaking for you. 

Do you oppose that particular recommendation or suggestion? 

Ms. KICHAK. We believe very strongly that the panels should consist of diverse individuals. We do—we agree in principle that that 

is important. We have issued guidance that tells folks to comprise 

their panels and SES selection from a broad spectrum of employees 

to make sure that there is representation. 

What we object to, or don’t support in that legislation, is the 

mandatory nature of that. Every time the way—the way we read 

the legislation every time a panel is drawn, it has to have a certain 

makeup. And we just think that is too restrictive. You might know 

that OPM has been working very hard. We have an SES pilot 

starting to try to do things in a more efficient manner, try to encourage hiring by making the process not so cumbersome. And we 

think that’s just too restrictive. 

Chairman GONZA ́LEZ. Okay. Thank you. The next question in the 

following up is going to be with Mr. Gil and Mr. Osegueda. I think 

there is a perception out there that it takes a little bit more work, 

a little bit more effort, to identify a minority applicant. The pool 

may not be as great, it takes a greater effort, it definitely is more 

targeted. For instance, I think we have already had Ms. Kichak inVerDate 0ct 09 2002 16:30 May 22, 2008 Jkt 033615 PO 00000 Frm 00023 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 G:\CLERK SB-LD\HEARINGS\TRANSCRIPTS\40857.TXT LEANN
20

dicate that they go to these universities that have high minority 

representation in the Latino community and such. 

Recognizing that—and, again, I don’t speak for Mr. Davis—but 

I would imagine that the motive behind this is to, in a way, institutionalize within OPM and within every department and agency the 

sensitivity based and predicated on the composition of these panels. 

Do you believe that that is an appropriate approach to make sure 

that whatever OPM is doing is—one, that it does identify that 

which is most effective; and, secondly, that the departments and 

agencies to which they are communicating these suggestions are in 

fact taking them seriously and implementing those policies? Mr. 

Gil? Or Mr. Osegueda? 

Mr. OSEGUEDA. We think that we should have an opportunity to 

be there when those decisions are made. But the thing here is that 

if we don’t have this access to this data that says that—how many 

people are applying, who these people are applying for these SES 

positions, we can’t really tell you whether Hispanics are applying 

or not. 

But we have contended every since—for the last couple of years 

that there is no lack of talented and qualified Hispanics for SES 

positions. We are out there. We are not—the Federal Government 

is not making the effort to in fact prepare, develop, and provide opportunities for development for these people to actually compete for 

SES positions. 

I don’t think that it is the fact that we are not there. I don’t 

think it is the fact that we are not applying. I don’t think it is the 

fact that we are not qualified for that and we are not interested 

in being in SES positions. Our position is that there are now opportunities, and we have been discriminated for a long time, and we 

have been passed for promotions for a long time, as we have indicated here with the data. 

So we think that without those measures of accountability, and 

ever since Executive Order 13171 came up, we don’t see this accountability being in place. We think that by having these panels 

then that measure of accountability is incorporated into the agency 

diversity initiatives. 

Chairman GONZA ́LEZ. And, Mr. Gil, do you have an opinion on 

this? 

Mr. GIL. Mr. Chair, I will address it more in the aspect of opportunity regarding within the Federal Government. Studies show 

that less than 25 percent of all college students ever think about 

working for the Federal Government as a career choice, the largest 

employer in the United States. 

What we have seen, as a result of participating in opportunities 

such as the ones that we offer, is that their interest in working for 

the Federal Government increases tremendously. As I reported, 90 

percent now would consider working for the Federal Government 

as a career choice. That is a tremendous chasm that has been 

bridged with just a 10-, 15-week opportunity. 

I think that this is is important as a pipeline issue, because it 

is easier to get in at the entry level than through the more senior 

ranks. So what we are trying to do is provide a pipeline for those 

individuals for the long-term viability of a workforce in the United 

States. 

21

So I commend OPM and other federal agencies that look at this 

as a long-term human resource issue, because they are starting to 

see that they need to go where the Latino students are by 

partnering with Hispanic-serving institutions. 

Chairman GONZA ́LEZ. Okay. Thank you very much, Mr. Gil. 

The chair is going to recognize the Ranking Member, Mr. Westmoreland. 

Mr. WESTMORELAND. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. This will be my 

last round of questions. I have got to go somewhere else. 

But it is very interesting. I am interested to know what Mr. Gil 

and Mr. O would do with these numbers that you get. I mean, how 

would you use those numbers to help you better understand if Hispanics were being discriminated against or not? Because unless you 

really read the whole job application and had—you know, you 

wouldn’t really understand how those numbers related. 

Mr. OSEGUEDA. First of all, we need to know exactly how many 

SES positions are vacant. And we need to know what are the efforts of the agencies as recruitment is concerned. But, then, we 

need to know how many or who are the people who are applying 

for these SES positions. Are Hispanics actually applying for these 

positions and are not being selected on a consistent basis? If that 

is the case, then we can have an argument that either we are not 

prepared to compete for those positions or there is a discriminatory 

practice. 

Now, if we are not present when those evaluations are made at 

the panel level, then we don’t even know why is it that this particular applicant was not selected. 

Mr. WESTMORELAND. Mr. Gil, with HACU, you have an intern 

program that I guess you have got some agreements with the government or this is something that you offer Hispanic students, to 

go into this internship, correct? 

Mr. GIL. Correct. Those are public through RFP process with federal agencies, that they set up their own individual requirements, 

and then they put it out in the Federal Register for associations 

or companies or individuals to compete for. 

Mr. WESTMORELAND. Do you have any problem with those numbers? 

Mr. GIL. In regards to specifically what, sir? 

Mr. WESTMORELAND. Is it enough? I mean, you have got I think 

you said 4.8 million students, and I don’t know how many are offered these internships. 

Mr. GIL. We place approximately 620 students per year. We have 

every summer, for example, sir, nearly 2,000 eligible applicants. 

Those are individuals that have over 3.0 and above and over a multitude of different disciplines that would be perfect candidates for 

not only the public sector but for the private sector. 

So what we do is to open doors of opportunity, and for all of 

these students to get valuable work experience. 

Mr. WESTMORELAND. Who controls those numbers, though, is 

what I am asking I guess. 

Mr. GIL. It comes straight from the federal agencies. They provide us with their interest and their specific requirements, what 

they are looking for, X, Y, or Z individual in Washington, D.C., or 

it can be Alaska or it can be Forest Service, you know, in Provo, 

22

Utah, and they let us know what type of individual they are looking for. We then facilitate those individuals. 

Mr. WESTMORELAND. And I am assuming that the historical 

black colleges and universities have these same opportunities with 

the federal—

Mr. GIL. That is correct. 

Mr. WESTMORELAND. —program also. 

Mr. GIL. That is correct. There are also Native American and African-American. It is identified in many federal agencies as minority-serving programs. 

Mr. WESTMORELAND. Thank you. I yield back the balance of my 

time. 

Chairman GONZA ́LEZ. Thank you very much. Appreciate your 

participation today. 

And the chair will recognize Ms. Moore. 

Ms. MOORE. Well, thank you again for the opportunity to have 

a second round. I just wanted to mention to Ms. Kichak that I can 

see from your testimony that you have never been to Milwaukee, 

Wisconsin. I see that as a terrible failure of the Federal Government to recruit on very fertile ground. 

We have a very fast Hispanic—growing Hispanic population. I 

think we are only second to Indiana in terms of the fastest-growing 

Hispanic population. We have I think the youngest African-American population in the country. It would be a fantastic and welcoming activity to have someone from the personnel management 

agency come out. 

I guess I wanted to sort of ask Mr. Gil—and I think my colleague, Mr. Westmoreland, has asked a lot of questions about the 

internships—these internships are funded for all of the agencies, 

for any agency? 

Mr. GIL. Each individual agency makes their own internal decision on how many students that they have. Usually it is a federal 

agency-wide procurement opportunity, and individual bureaus utilize that mechanism to hire the students. 

Ms. MOORE. Okay. Do you find that you always have enough students to fill these slots, or are you—do you find yourself short of 

slots or waiting lists, or are there adequate numbers? Do you wish 

there were more opportunities? 

Mr. GIL. Absolutely. 

Ms. MOORE. Okay. Let me ask a question. In terms of the types 

of students that are recruited for these programs, are there—many 

of these students may come from—may be very capable but may 

come from families who don’t necessarily have money to totally and 

completely support this activity. 

I mean, they can’t—you know, I think they—every parent sort of 

hustles up enough money to get clean underwear for their kids, so 

that they won’t be embarrassed when they come to Washington, 

D.C., or go wherever. But are all of the expenses paid so that you 

don’t find yourself only recruiting those middle class students who 

can take advantage of this opportunity? 

Mr. GIL. Thank you, Congresswoman, for allowing me to expand 

on the nuances of the program. It is truly unique that all of these 

internships are paid, 100 percent paid. 

Ms. MOORE. Okay. 

23

Mr. GIL. In addition to we help facilitate roundtrip airfare for the 

student at no cost to the student. We also help facilitate housing. 

I always put it in the lowest common denominator. This may be 

the first time they are flying in a plane, much less arrive to Washington, D.C., Reagan National Airport, and know exactly where 

they are going to live for the summer. 

And so we actually meet with the student at the airport, transport them to their location, transport them for a full two-day orientation so they feel much more fully prepared, create a sense of 

a safety net, for lack of another word. We also provide them with 

access to alumni. 

So we are happy to report that once a student starts a program, 

we have a less than one percent attrition rate for the students that 

leave the program. But I do believe that the critical aspect is that 

they are all paid. 

Ms. MOORE. Ms. Kichak, I just want to ask you a question before 

my time expires. You know, we have—and I think, you know, Mr. 

Westmoreland may have touched on this a little bit. We sort of 

have sort of schizophrenia in this country as it relates to affirmative action and creating opportunities for minorities, the whole immigration policy. 

Are these conflicts in the American political dialogue, do you 

think that they hamstring the agency in terms of actually implementing the executive orders and actually—because we heard a lot 

of frustration from Mr. Osegueda that in fact we are woefully behind, and Mr. Gil is saying we could do more. 

Do these cultural sort of warfare issues, do you believe that they 

perhaps impede your ability to fulfill this mandate? 

Ms. KICHAK. I don’t think so. I think, number one, we do agree 

that there needs to be more progress. So we are not comfortable 

with where we are. But we think we have the opportunity to do 

that. 

I think we feel that if we do more job fairs in the right places, 

if we participate in more activities with folks like HACU—and 

OPM does have a contract with HACU—that we can make 

progress. And, again, it is some of the—yes, we are schizophrenic. 

We don’t like mandates. But we don’t think that stands in our way. 

We think we can do better. We think we can make progress. 

Ms. MOORE. Thank you so much. My time has expired. 

Chairman GONZA ́LEZ. Thank you very much. 

And before we adjourn, just—you don’t have to stick around, if 

you have to be somewhere else. But I just wanted to follow up and 

end it with a couple of questions and still give my colleagues an 

opportunity. 

Ms. Kichak, going back to accountability, if an agency or a department receives whatever suggestions and findings that you 

make as OPM, as the overseer, as the monitor, as the one that promulgates best practices or identifies them, and they do nothing and 

they get a failing score on that scorecard that you are referring to. 

And maybe in a newsletter or a web site, again, their failings or 

shortcomings are highlighted, but they still do nothing. Where do 

you go from there? 

Ms. KICHAK. Well, I think the publication of the data and the 

publication of the scorecard mean a lot, and I think there is a comVerDate 0ct 09 2002 16:30 May 22, 2008 Jkt 033615 PO 00000 Frm 00027 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 G:\CLERK SB-LD\HEARINGS\TRANSCRIPTS\40857.TXT LEANN
24

mitment at the highest level to that. We work with OMB. OMB sits 

down as we score. And you mentioned you think there is a budget, 

you know, there is a budget impact there. 

I think there is a great incentive with the people involved in 

doing these scorings, in doing these reviews, to try to work on these 

issues. And I know the data is not good, but we are showing some 

improvement, very slow improvement, in the number. I mean, 

there is attention being paid to this issue, and it is making a difference. 

Chairman GONZA ́LEZ. Okay. Mr. Stalcup, and I don’t want you to 

go beyond—I know you won’t anyway, because you guys are so 

darned disciplined over there. 

[Laughter.] 

What do we do about the accountability factor? Obviously, Congress is frustrated. I think Mr. Davis is looking at a way of working and setting in place some mechanism that he thinks will pay 

more attention to the problem, and maybe it will percolate and be 

better monitored, and maybe they will come up with some sort of 

consequence. 

But what about accountability? What if no one adopts best practices? Someone continues having a low score and just doesn’t improve on making sure that they expand the diverse nature of their 

workforce. 

Mr. STALCUP. Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman. We have done a 

lot of work, and we have come at this with just a little bit different 

perspective. Numbers are important. Numbers don’t lie, as long as 

they are accurate. And we need to know where we stand, whether 

it is against the CLF or against the relevant CLF. There are ways 

to analyze numbers. 

A few years ago EEOC issued a new Management Directive 715, 

which we thought was a major step forward in providing the requirement for agencies to do more in-depth analysis. My point 

being that the first step is for agencies to analyze their workforces 

and to understand where they are and to understand where—if 

there are problems in terms of numbers, that indicates that there 

are barriers of some kind. What are those barriers? And what can 

we do to get at those? 

I don’t have a ready answer for you in terms of the accountability, but our work has gone a long way in identifying the value 

of agencies knowing where they are in terms of their workforce, 

how that workforce matches up with their mission, where there are 

gaps, developing a strategic plan and a human capital plan—that 

is going to get at those things. 

And so, again, for us step one is a better understanding of not 

only where we are but why and what can be done to change that. 

Chairman GONZA ́LEZ. And thank you again. And I just want to—

again, I want to compliment you for the fine work, and I think you 

do identify the shortcomings and the problems and where we can 

improve. But you do leave it up to Congress, which is appropriate, 

for us to find some of the answers to it all. 

Mr. Hairston, I did not mean to ignore you through this whole 

proceeding. SBA obviously is very dear to us, because, you know, 

we—this Committee wouldn’t basically exist, because that is our 

25

chief charge of what we are doing with the Small Business Administration. I commend you for the effort. 

I think that there is room for some improvement and such, but 

we are looking at SBA potentially being a model for other agencies. 

Obviously, there are much bigger departments and agencies out 

there. But is there anything that you would like to add as we wrap 

up the hearing? 

Mr. HAIRSTON. Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman. Yes, I would like 

to just echo some of the comments that I have heard across the 

panel. I think what is important to this process is a demonstration 

of commitment to a diverse workforce. And I think our numbers 

bear out that historically there has been a commitment to a diverse 

workforce at SBA. 

And I believe that our practices are consistent with the guidance 

that we have received from OPM in respect to how we manage our 

SES candidate—our SES program as well as our candidate development programs, which is demonstrated by the diversity and the 

makeup of our SES workforce. 

There are always areas that we can improve in. We believe 

that—we strongly believe that as we go forward that more targeted 

recruitment is necessary, not only for recruiting from the various 

diverse populations, but maintaining those levels of diversity in our 

workforce. 

We are committed to doing that, the commitment is there, and 

we will continue to practice what we consider to be the best practices that have enabled us to achieve the results we have demonstrated so far. 

Chairman GONZA ́LEZ. Well, I want to again thank you, and, to 

all of the witnesses, thank you so much. And, of course, your written statements will be made part of the record. Again, there will 

be some follow up, if we have any additional questions. For many 

of the members that either were here today or they may have written questions, I appreciate a timely response from you. 

Again, thank you for everything that you do, and we will continue the conversation, and we will see where the legislation goes. 

And the Subcommittee will now stand adjourned. 

[Whereupon, at 1:22 p.m., the Subcommittee was adjourned.]

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