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 U.S. DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY

 OFFICE OF ENERGY EFFICIENCY AND RENEWABLE ENERGY

 APPLIANCE STANDARDS AND RULEMAKING

 FEDERAL ADVISORY COMMITTEE

 COMMERCIAL AND INDUSTRIAL PUMPS WORKING GROUP

 U.S. Department of Energy

 Forrestal Building

 1000 Independence Avenue, S.W.

 Washington, D.C. 20585

 Wednesday, April 30, 2014

 9:11 a.m.

 Reported by: Natasha Thomas,

 Capital Reporting Company
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1 A P P E A R A N C E S

FACILITATOR:

2

 DOUG BROOKMAN

3 Public Solutions

4 PARTICIPANTS:

5 LUCAS ADIN

 DOE

6

 JEFF ALASCIO

7 ABB

8 ROBERT BARBOUR

 TACO

9

 ROB BOTELER

10 Nidec Motor Company

11 CHARLES CAPPELLINO

 ITT Corporation

12

 GREG CASE

13 Hydraulic Institute

14 KATIE COUGHLIN

 Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory

15

 DAN DELANEY

16 Regal Beloit

17 TOM ECKMAN

 Northwest Power and Conservation Council

18

 GARY FERNSTROM

19 representing California investor-owned

 utilities

20

 MARK HANDZEL

21 Xylem

22 JIANGANG HU

 Rockwell Automation
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1 A P P E A R A N C E S (Cont.)

2 PARTICIPANTS (Cont.):

3 ALBERT HUBER

 Patterson Pump

4

 BETSY KOHL

5 DOE General Counsel

6 EMILY MARCHETTI

 Energetics Incorporated

7

 JOANNA MAUER

8 Appliance Standards Awareness Project

9 BRENT McMANIS

 Baldor Electric

10

 DOUGLAS POTTS

11 American Water

12 CHARLES POWERS

 Flowserve Corporation

13

 CALLIE REIS

14 Navigant

15 ARNIE SDANO

 Pentair

16

 JAY SIVIGNY

17 Flowserve Corporation

18 LOUIS STARR

 Northwest Energy Efficiency Alliance

19

 STEVE THOMPSON

20 TACO

21 GREG TOWSLEY

 Grundfos USA

22
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1 A P P E A R A N C E S (Cont.)

2 PARTICIPANTS (Cont.):

3 MEG WALTNER

 Natural Resources Defense Council

4

 DANIEL WEINTRAUB

5 Navigant

6 SARAH WIDDER

 Pacific Northwest National Laboratory

7

 ALISON WILLIAMS

8 Lawrence Berkeley National

 Laboratory

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22
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1 P R O C E E D I N G S

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Welcome, everyone. Good

3 morning. This is day two of the fifth meeting of

4 the Commercial and Industrial Pumps Negotiated

5 Rulemaking Working Group. Today is April 30th,

6 2014, here in the Forrestal Building in

7 Washington, D.C.

8 So glad you are here this morning. We

9 had a glitch getting going this morning. Our

10 court reporter was late. However, we had a couple

11 of productive informal discussions between caucus

12 members and the analysts. And also we had a

13 detailed conversation about the schedule, process

14 features only, off the record, of which we took

15 notes. I will insert a record of those notes from

16 that informal meeting in this transcript, but I'm

17 not going to do it now. I'm going to move on to

18 the issues at hand.

19 Let's start off by doing introductions,

20 as we typically do. To my immediate left?

21 MR. ECKMAN: Tom Eckman, Northwest Power

22 and Conservation Council.
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1 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary Fernstrom

2 representing the California investor-owned

3 utilities: Pacific Gas and Electric Company,

4 Southern California Edison Company, San Diego Gas

5 and Electric Company, and the Southern California

6 Gas Company.

7 MR. CASE: Greg Case, Hydraulic

8 Institute.

9 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel with Xylem.

10 MR. HUBER: Al Huber with Patterson.

11 MR. BARBOUR: Bob Barbour with TACO.

12 MR. POWERS: Chuck Powers, Flowserve.

13 MR. POTTS: Doug Potts from American

14 Water.

15 MR. DELANEY: Dan Delaney with Regal

16 Beloit Electric Motors.

17 MR. STARR: Louis Starr with Northwest

18 Energy Efficiency Alliance.

19 MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer, Appliance

20 Standards Awareness Project.

21 MS. WALTNER: Meg Waltner, NRDC.

22 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg Towsley, Grundfos.
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1 MR. ADIN: Lucas Adin, DOE.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Katie?

3 MS. COUGHLIN: Katie Coughlin, Lawrence

4 Berkeley National Lab.

5 MS. WIDDER: Sarah Widder, Pacific

6 Northwest National Lab.

7 MR. WEINTRAUB: Daniel Weintraub,

8 Navigant.

9 MS. WILLIAMS: Alison Williams, Lawrence

10 Berkeley National Lab.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Arnie?

12 MR. SDANO: Arnie Sdano, Pentair.

13 MR. ALASCIO: Jeff Alascio, ABB.

14 MR. McMANIS: Brent McManis, Baldor

15 Electric.

16 MR. BOTELER: Rob Boteler, Nidec.

17 MR. HU: Jiangang Hu from Rockwell

18 Automation.

19 MS. REIS: Callie Reis, Navigant

20 Consulting.

21 MR. THOMPSON: Steve Thompson, TACO.

22 MR. SIVIGNY: Jay Sivigny, Flowserve.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Again, welcome to all of

2 you. Thanks. And everyone I would note was here

3 at 8:00 a.m. And we were unable to start. In the

4 informal meeting we had prior to going on the

5 record here this morning, we did establish some

6 additional meeting dates. I thought I would note

7 that here and now. And I am going to request that

8 either Lucas or I send out an email to just

9 confirm these dates and the times that we have

10 established, which are we are expecting we are

11 going to tag an additional day on our June

12 meeting. And that would be June 17th, Tuesday,

13 June 17th. And we're going to start at 9:00 a.m.

14 and conclude at 5:00 that date. We'll

15 confirm that and send that out.

16 And also we have added an additional day

17 to our July meeting. And that day will be Friday,

18 July 25th. And we anticipate if it's the third

19 day of the meeting, that probably that will be an

20 8:00 to 3:00 meeting. But we'll just confirm all

21 of that and send it out.

22 And also we have scheduled an interim
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1 webinar should we need it -- and I'm thinking we

2 might; I think I got this wrong in my notes -- May

3 14th at 1:00 p.m. Eastern. And DOE will send out

4 the details on how to access that webinar as well

5 as the analytic material that we hope to review on

6 that webinar.

7 Gary Fernstrom?

8 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. Doug,

9 seated next to me but out of the room at the

10 moment and, therefore, missing the introduction is

11 Charlie Cappellino of ITT.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Thank you.

13 And maybe one or two other individuals are not

14 here present. As soon as they arrive, we'll

15 introduce them.

16 We had a very productive discussion

17 yesterday. We had a lot of presentation, a lot of

18 material to digest. And then at the end of the

19 day, we had some very direct and useful

20 communication, especially from the manufacturers'

21 caucus, about how they imagine, envision the

22 metric coming together, how that would suit their
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1 interests best. This morning I think that Sarah

2 had an opportunity to talk with them about

3 metrics, but maybe I'll just -- I'll go to Lucas

4 here for opening remarks. But I think that their

5 having consulted briefly with Greg Case just now

6 before we convened, he suggested that maybe Sarah

7 could just start off this morning because the

8 items that I have on my agenda for today are

9 metrics. And then I'll probably ask Katie to do

10 the presentation on lifecycle costs that she

11 didn't conclude yesterday -- that's important how

12 that all stacks out -- and then go from there to

13 the assumptions following the presentation that

14 Dan did yesterday, begin to go through those

15 slides and hear from everyone in the room their

16 additional thoughts on that.

17 And then, finally, there are a few other

18 issues, small issues, about how we proceed on

19 certain topics that I've made a list of that we'll

20 address as we move on as the day -- but you want

21 to say some stuff here at the outset? Lucas Adin?

22 MR. ADIN: I don't think I have a lot to
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1 add, Doug. I think you basically covered it. But

2 what I understand is that we're going to have a

3 brief discussion -- well, Sarah is going to give a

4 brief presentation on what we understand to be the

5 proposal for metric. And we'll have some

6 discussion based upon that.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: That sounds right, a

8 proposal from the manufacturer caucus. One thing

9 we also discussed informally since there was

10 another process feature prior to getting on the

11 record was that I and DOE and everyone in this

12 room, we all welcome all parties present, all

13 members present, making proposals. We want that.

14 This is an equilateral body. And we want equal

15 participation and assertion by all the members

16 present. Okay?

17 So, Sarah, are you ready to go?

18 MS. WIDDER: I'm ready.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: And I would say in my

20 many years of experience at DOE, I've never been

21 happier to see a court reporter.

22 (Laughter.)
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1 MS. WIDDER: Okay. So just hopefully

2 this will be a brief presentation. We had a lot

3 of helpful discussion this morning about metric.

4 And yesterday afternoon, I think we've reached a

5 proposal that most of us in the room are

6 comfortable with. I'm going to present my

7 understanding of what that is and then welcome

8 discussion from any parties about little changes,

9 things that don't make sense to you. I'd really

10 like by the end of this to get to a general

11 consensus in the room at what the high-level

12 construct of the metric looks like for controlled

13 and uncontrolled pumps. So that's what we're

14 going to have the primary discussion here. I have

15 lots of other remaining topics that we're going to

16 have to discuss of the test procedure at some

17 point in time. It's not going to be today.

18 So just, firstly, a high-level overview

19 of what we want to accomplish with the metric. I

20 made this list of five items. Be objectively

21 measurable, obviously, from a test procedure and

22 standard perspective. You want a quantifiable
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1 metric. Represent the performance of the covered

2 product, which we defined earlier. I put up these

3 little boxes as a pump as consisting of bare pump,

4 a motor, and controls. And so we want to

5 represent the energy use on that covered product

6 consisting of those three components when present.

7 Differentiate performance among pump models and

8 pump configurations. So if a pump is sold with a

9 motor or with a motor controls, we want to be able

10 to clearly differentiate how those different

11 components and configurations affect the energy

12 use of that product under the test procedure and

13 potentially in the field.

14 Communicate information about pump

15 performance to the consumer. I have a little note

16 there. Maybe this isn't all the information that

17 a consumer would need to make an educated

18 decision. That is often the case. But we do want

19 it to make sense to people and intuitively help

20 them maybe select between products. They probably

21 will need more information. And that can also

22 lead into a conversation about a label, which we
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1 can have at a different time, that is outside of

2 the metric. And then, lastly, compare the

3 efficiency of a given pump to the minimum standard

4 level, which is obviously, from DOE's perspective

5 and from a regulatory perspective, probably the

6 primary function of the metric.

7 And so I made this little table here

8 because I think for a while, it was confusing

9 about what we were trying to accomplish with this

10 metric. And we're trying to do two things. And

11 they're somewhat different in the way we construct

12 the metric. So the metric has a test procedure

13 component and a standard component. And the way

14 that they're calculated on each of those yellow

15 branches could be different. So Dan talked

16 through how the standard is set. It will be set

17 in terms of the PER, but it won't be calculated

18 the same way the PER is calculated for a given

19 pump model. So I can't think of a better way to

20 discuss that at this point, but a test procedure,

21 the test procedure will describe how the PER is

22 measured for a given pump. You have a pump in a
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1 test stand. And then you use calculations to get

2 to the metric. The energy conservation standard

3 is set through a different process that we

4 discussed yesterday. Then they're comparable but

5 not the same.

6 And so another way to talk about this is

7 that we sent out a calculator. Lucas sent out a

8 calculator that we had developed to help calculate

9 the PER of pump models. That was only for pump

10 models. There was no standard to compare it to in

11 that calculator at this time. That standard needs

12 to be set through a different process.

13 So today or right now, we're just

14 talking about the test procedure side of the

15 metric, how you compare among pump models and how

16 you calculate the PER for a given pump.

17 We have seen this slide before, but I

18 have changed it a little bit here. So this is

19 just talking about the applicability of different

20 standard options to pump configurations. This

21 bare pump level, I put MEI in the bare pump box

22 because that is essentially what the MEI does. It
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1 measures the performance of a bare pump.

2 And then down here, I want to focus on

3 what we are going to be talking about in the next

4 couple of slides is this last row here and the

5 PER. I've defined two new terms so that we can

6 differentiate between controlled pumps and

7 uncontrolled pumps. So the PER with a subscript

8 CL refers to a constant load pump energy rating,

9 and then the PER for a pump/motor/controls refers

10 to a variable load pump energy rating, sort of

11 like the highway-city comparison we were using

12 earlier. I made those terms up yesterday evening.

13 So I welcome suggestions on more intuitive, better

14 terms, but I thought that they were logical and

15 then also showed that there is some comparison.

16 Some comparison can be made between uncontrolled

17 and a variable load, but they are different,

18 different tests, different metrics. And so that's

19 where the subscripts come in.

20 So, in general, the uncontrolled and

21 variable load will have the same or a similar

22 construct. It will be a weighted, equally
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1 weighted, average of electrical input power to the

2 pump with a minimally compliant, uncontrolled pump

3 as the denominator. So that would be the standard

4 that we're setting through a different process.

5 I've defined some of the terms here.

6 This is just a summary of the equation. PER is a

7 pump energy rating. W, or omega, is the

8 weighting. You could or could not have a load

9 control factor. This equation doesn't have it. So

10 I can remove it here just to remove confusion

11 because our proposal doesn't have that right now.

12 Sorry. These slides were made very recently. The

13 Pi is power input to the pump at the driver or the

14 motor. Inclusively, we have controls if present

15 or that is the intent there, that you are

16 measuring the input power to the pump. And the

17 denominator is obviously the minimally compliant

18 uncontrolled pump. We'll talk about how to

19 calculate that. And the main difference for

20 uncontrolled versus variable load is the weighting

21 points.

22 More specifically for an uncontrolled
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1 pump -- then we'll talk about the variable load

2 application and compare those. For an

3 uncontrolled pump, we would use the weighting

4 points of 75 percent, 100 percent, 110 percent of

5 BEP flow, as is assumed in the EU so that they are

6 the same load points and equal weighting. The

7 motor performance would account for losses, as we

8 have discussed in previous meetings, and would be

9 either that of the motor that is paired with that

10 pump if the pump is sold with the motor or a

11 minimally compliant motor, as we have discussed

12 previously. And that would be accounted for, as

13 shown in this lower equation, through the loss

14 term.

15 This is a really complex equation, but,

16 essentially, we have the weighted average input

17 power on the numerator here. And then the

18 denominator becomes the minimally compliant

19 standard level. We saw this equation yesterday

20 from Dan. So this is the losses associated with a

21 minimally compliant motor. And then the hydraulic

22 power, that's the same hydraulic power associated
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1 with these -- am I talking loud enough? -- with

2 the rated pump and then a standard pump

3 efficiency. Okay. I'm going back now.

4 And then I'll also note at the bottom

5 that there's no assumption for controls

6 performance here. We're not accounting for a

7 standardized drive efficiency. There are no

8 controls because it's an uncontrolled situation.

9 Similarly or conversely, for a variable

10 load, a controlled pump, we have adjusted the load

11 points somewhat to provide more explicit

12 differentiation of the benefit you get from

13 applying controls to a variable load. We have 25

14 percent, 50 percent, 75 percent, and 100 percent

15 of BEP flow, equal weighting, and the exact same

16 denominator. Dan discussed yesterday where these

17 weightings of .95 and .985 in the minimally

18 compliant pump came from yesterday. We can review

19 that again today if we'd like to. But,

20 essentially, this is the equation for how we're

21 going to calculate the standard. So we could just

22 say pump standard underneath there to simplify the
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1 equation.

2 This is a little bit of detail about how

3 the minimally compliant pump -- where that minimum

4 PER comes from. We saw that yesterday. The

5 efficiency is set based on -- this is in terms of

6 the -- yes? Go ahead.

7 MR. ALASCIO: Hi. Jeff Alascio from

8 ABB. Can you go back one slide, please?

9 MS. WIDDER: Yes.

10 MR. ALASCIO: So, again, I just want to

11 make sure we understand. So when we look at the

12 bottom of, you know, your denominator of that last

13 line --

14 MS. WIDDER: Yes.

15 MR. ALASCIO: -- and you have L of .75,

16 L of BEP, and L of 1.1, --

17 MS. WIDDER: Yes.

18 MR. ALASCIO: -- and that's taking into

19 account the motor, --

20 MS. WIDDER: Yes.

21 MR. ALASCIO: -- are we required as a

22 motor manufacturer to measure our efficiencies at
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1 those loads?

2 MS. WIDDER: No, no. So we have

3 discussed -- and I actually have some slides at

4 the back, but I'll just -- at a high level, the

5 pump manufacturers or whoever is certifying this

6 pump would take the full load losses of a motor

7 that's paired with that minimally compliant pump

8 and then use a default loss curve that's been

9 defined to determine the losses at loads other

10 than full load. So there's no other additional

11 information necessary besides that that's already

12 provided in motor certification today. Okay.

13 MR. DELANEY: This is Dan Delaney from

14 Regal. Can you talk a little bit about that? So

15 I didn't catch that when you talked about it

16 before. A default loss curve? Is that something

17 that you will have as part of the formulation?

18 MS. WIDDER: Yes, yes.

19 MR. DELANEY: So my concern with that

20 would be, then, defaulting all technologies into

21 one default loss curve.

22 MS. WIDDER: Right. So I think that is
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1 a really excellent observation and something we

2 need to discuss in more detail. At this point, I

3 would really like to reach agreement on the high4 level construct of this metric. And then there's

5 a number of -- on this slide, you saw a number of

6 other things that we're going to need to get into

7 to reach a formal test procedure.

8 But if we could agree on the like

9 numerator and denominator and the general idea of

10 what applies to uncontrolled versus variable, that

11 would be my goal today. And then we can revisit

12 how we specifically account for motor losses and

13 other things like that in the future. Is that

14 okay?

15 MR. DELANEY: Yes. That would be great.

16 MS. WIDDER: Okay.

17 MR. DELANEY: But when we go into the

18 default loss curve, is that something you're going

19 to provide the details of how you come up with

20 that or --

21 MS. WIDDER: Yes. And there are some

22 previous slides that we can provide that are
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1 available.

2 MR. DELANEY: Right. So --

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas Adin?

4 MR. ADIN: Where the loss curve would

5 come from and in practice, if we were to implement

6 a scheme like that, the loss curve would

7 essentially be built into the test procedure. So

8 it would say, "This is the default loss curve that

9 you use to do this calculation." And it would

10 just be part of the pump rating test method that

11 we would incorporate. Does that --

12 MR. DELANEY: No. I think I probably

13 have a lot more discussion around that on a loss

14 curve, especially a calculated loss curve.

15 Certainly, you know, we talk about a weighted

16 factor. That could be one way to do that

17 defining, let's say, a variable torque type of

18 load.

19 MR. ADIN: Right.

20 MR. DELANEY: A default loss curve to me

21 would imply that, you know, regardless of your

22 technology, you're going to live by that. It's
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1 based off your base rated point, which would not

2 be a good idea.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: So you're raising the

4 kind of issues that we hope to raise in a more

5 detailed discussion. I'm hoping to keep this at a

6 conceptual level right now.

7 MR. ADIN: The idea behind the use, the

8 premise for the use, of a default loss curve is to

9 get around the need for every motor on a pump to

10 be tested and for the motor manufacturers to --

11 MR. DELANEY: Yes.

12 MR. ADIN: -- supply every test point --

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary?

14 MR. ADIN: -- so you have something to

15 use as a basis for comparison.

16 MR. FERNSTROM: So this is Gary.

17 Different types of motors have different reduced

18 speed loss characteristics. So let's make it a

19 point to revisit that later.

20 MS. WIDDER: Yes.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: I've made a note right

22 here. We'll come back to it.
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1 MS. WIDDER: Yes. I think that's a --

2 and all of these detailed discussions still need

3 to occur. And I am fully aware of that.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Does that happen in the

5 context of test procedure or in this metric?

6 MS. WIDDER: In the context of test

7 procedure.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: That's what I thought.

9 Okay. So let's proceed.

10 MS. WIDDER: Yes. Okay. So this is

11 just a comparison, a summary of all of the

12 information that we just went through,

13 acknowledging that there are still some details

14 that we need to get into in terms of how these

15 specific motor losses are determined for different

16 types of motors. In addition, we haven't really

17 talked in detail about how the pump input energy

18 is measured. So we need to do all of that.

19 But, in general, what I'd really like to

20 agree on today is that we establish separate but

21 similar metrics for uncontrolled versus variable

22 load -- they're on the left and the right, your
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1 left and right, here -- that they're a weighted

2 average of pump input power at load points that

3 are respective to whether it's a controlled or

4 uncontrolled application.

5 We account for motor losses in some

6 format. This is at a high level. We'll account

7 for losses associated with the motor if there is

8 one or a default motor. We will talk in more

9 detail about how that is accomplished, but, in

10 general, we'd like to do that. And there is no

11 controls performance accounted for in the -- oh,

12 I'm sorry. Yes? There's no -- sorry. I have

13 this heading wrong. There's no controls

14 performance accounted for in the uncontrolled case

15 -- let me switch this -- uncontrolled case, the

16 constant load application. But then the benefit

17 of controls is captured in a calculation of bare

18 shaft input power for variable load.

19 So any discussion on that? Do we want

20 to go back? Yes?

21 MS. WALTNER: So sort of a high-level

22 question, for any given pump, would you report
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1 both of these, the constant load and variable load

2 PERs, or would it be dependent on the

3 configuration that the pump is sold in?

4 MS. WIDDER: So my opinion, I think

5 that's something the Working Group has to discuss.

6 MS. WALTNER: Okay.

7 MS. WIDDER: There is only one metric

8 that a given equipment class or given pump model

9 can meet for the purposes of a standard, but --

10 yes. There's -- yes.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: So Lucas --

12 MS. WIDDER: I know Lucas --

13 MR. ADIN: No. I actually had a very

14 similar question for the manufacturers' caucus on

15 how they were envisioning this in practice.

16 MR. HUBER: You know, we discussed --

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber?

18 MR. HUBER: Yes. Al Huber, Patterson.

19 We discussed it, and we believe we will probably

20 publish a nameplate or a label that will have both

21 because we have no idea how the customer is going

22 to use it.
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1 MR. ADIN: Right. And so --

2 MR. HUBER: So the information should be

3 there for every model.

4 MR. ADIN: Procedurally, we would only -

5 - and, you know, to answer questions like this, I

6 probably should have my lawyer present, as usual,

7 but we'll revisit it again for sure before we take

8 any kind of vote. But our understanding is that,

9 at least the way that we normally do things, only

10 one of those numbers would actually be the number

11 to which a product is subject to a standard. So

12 we'd set a standard using one of those metrics.

13 And all products would be subject to a standard on

14 that basis, but the other would be like a

15 descriptive metric that would be for consumer

16 value, and it could be on the label and that kind

17 of thing. Is that --

18 MR. HUBER: Yes. That's fine.

19 MR. ADIN: Yes.

20 MR. HUBER: And I think one of the

21 things that helps address his question earlier,

22 the denominator is going to be this standard or
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1 this -- as long as the standard is reasonably

2 accurate, that's all we care about. If we decide

3 to use a higher or a better, for lack of a better

4 way to put it, motor in the numerator, we're just

5 going to have a higher rating.

6 MR. ADIN: Right.

7 MR. HUBER: And, you know, we're going

8 to meet the standard with a higher motor.

9 MS. WIDDER: Right.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Dan wasn't here for that

11 discussion that the denominator will be a plug-in

12 value.

13 MS. WIDDER: Right.

14 MR. HUBER: Yes.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Right?

16 MR. ADIN: So this would still enable,

17 and it will realize a benefit from using an

18 improved motor --

19 MR. HUBER: Motor, yes.

20 MR. ADIN: -- in addition to hydraulic

21 improvements in the pump and all.

22 MR. HUBER: Exactly.
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1 MR. ADIN: Okay.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Dan, did you still have a

3 question?

4 MR. DELANEY: Yes. Just going back to

5 this point, this is very early in the motor

6 discussion. Many development has been going on,

7 both in the test standard point. We do have a

8 test standard that is out there. CSA C-838 does

9 define this about 20 points across there, let's

10 you define a variable torque, constant torque-type

11 operation, isn't really terribly mature from the

12 perspective of marking; right, because you want to

13 have the most points and make the best decision

14 for your application.

15 I guess when I go back to looking at a

16 single point and going back to a fixed-speed

17 motor, we don't want to mislead the consumer;

18 right, to select a motor at a base point speed

19 where they are going to be using this typically

20 across the variable frequency point. And

21 different technologies are going to allow that

22 drive. It is going to factor into that,
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1 certainly.

2 So just having one point and noting that

3 NEMA certainly as well as Regal Beloit certainly

4 would be happy to continue and to mature this

5 along because it is very, very early in the point

6 of just deciding to use, let's say, the NEMA

7 premium table 12 values or others. And to assume

8 that those are the right efficiency levels or

9 that's the right motor for that application could

10 be misleading, we'll say, on a single efficiency

11 point for a fixed frequency-type product.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: So it's a longer

13 discussion.

14 MS. WIDDER: Right.

15 MR. DELANEY: It is a longer discussion,

16 much one that -- we wouldn't want to say that a

17 motor with the best efficiency at a direct online

18 start is the right motor for those applications.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. So I believe in

20 being direct. And I want to be direct. I am

21 hoping that at a conceptual level, at the level

22 that Sarah is describing, that we can close on
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1 this today.

2 Charlie?

3 MR. CAPPELLINO: Charlie Cappellino. On

4 the titles in the green there, Sarah, you have

5 variable load on the right-hand side?

6 MS. WIDDER: Yes.

7 MR. CAPPELLINO: I think we're

8 suggesting constant load would be a better

9 descriptor.

10 MS. WIDDER: I think you mean constant

11 load on this side.

12 MR. CAPPELLINO: Yes, on the left-hand

13 side.

14 MS. WIDDER: Yes.

15 MR. CAPPELLINO: So constant load and

16 then variable load.

17 MS. WIDDER: Constant load and variable

18 load.

19 MS. WILLIAMS: So I just wanted to

20 comment on those titles, actually. If you call

21 PER variable load and you're planning to put it

22 potentially in pumps without VFDs. It should
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1 potentially be called controlled load because that

2 only reflects the power if you are using a VFD. It

3 does not reflect the power if you are throttling a

4 variable load.

5 MS. WIDDER: Yes, but then they're both

6 CL.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber?

8 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson.

9 MS. WILLIAMS: You know --

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you, Alison. Now

11 to Al.

12 MR. HUBER: That's not the issue. The

13 issue is you either control it with a variable

14 speed control or you control it with a valve, but

15 you are controlling the pump.

16 MS. WILLIAMS: Right. But if you are

17 capturing the power at reduced speeds in the

18 metric, you are --

19 MR. HUBER: No. We're trying to drive.

20 Our point is we're trying to help the consumer by

21 giving them information that is accurate for his

22 application. Okay? So that's the reason we're
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1 saying it needs to be a constant load. We're

2 suggesting to the consumer he needs a pump and a

3 motor.

4 MS. WIDDER: And, Alison, actually,

5 responding to Al and, actually, I'm agreeing with

6 you. I think that this is a nomenclature issue. I

7 see what you are saying.

8 MS. WILLIAMS: It's a nomenclature

9 issue.

10 MS. WIDDER: But, like, if you use the

11 city versus highway example again and you were

12 rating a manual car and decided to drive your

13 highway test in first gear, you would get an awful

14 rating. So we're assuming that they're

15 controlling because they have a variable load,

16 which I know why you have issues with that, but I

17 think it's just a term.

18 MS. WILLIAMS: No. I agree. It's just

19 a nomenclature issue.

20 MS. WIDDER: Right.

21 MS. WILLIAMS: But I think it should be

22 considered.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: And we can resolve that.

2 MS. WIDDER: Okay.

3 MR. DELANEY: I was going to say --

4 MR. BROOKMAN: In the spirit of defense,

5 I like that.

6 MR. DELANEY: One other point to add,

7 Doug, one other point to add to that, I agree. I

8 think we should probably try to define these,

9 certainly by a table, by showing the points,

10 defining what variable load and constant load are.

11 I think we're surprised always to find out what

12 each person means in some of that description,

13 rather than just the definition. Do it with a

14 chart, with load and speed. Define those points.

15 I think when we talk with our European

16 counterparts, our description of it had to be less

17 points than their description of it. I think it

18 is important that you define it up here

19 specifically what we mean by those little points

20 in a graph with the definition.

21 MS. WIDDER: Yes. That will be exactly

22 what we do with the test procedure. The test
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1 procedure will be a description of how this metric

2 is calculated.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber and then back to

4 Meg.

5 MR. HUBER: Yes. We understand that you

6 like speed, but this is not speed. These 75, 100,

7 110, or BEP flows --

8 MS. WIDDER: BEP flow.

9 MR. HUBER: So, you know, it will be

10 different, but the chart will be there for the

11 consumer.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.

13 MS. WIDDER: Correct.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Meg?

15 MS. WALTNER: Well, Al, you maybe just

16 said something contrary to this, but I was

17 wondering if it would help in the nomenclature

18 issue to say "speed," instead of "load," or does

19 that -- you know, if you said, "variable speed"?

20 No? It doesn't work?

21 MS. WIDDER: I don't think so.

22 MS. WALTNER: Okay.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So you're doing

2 well with presenting. I want you to keep going.

3 MS. WIDDER: Okay. So I guess at this

4 point, I would like to welcome -- I will go over

5 some major assumptions that are presented in this

6 table that I'd like to reach some resolution on.

7 And then if we can, that would be my goal. The

8 only other slide that I have in my up-front

9 discussion here is talking about a weighted

10 average metric versus a house of efficiency just

11 so people can get ready for that.

12 But, in general, the things that are on

13 this slide that I think are worth voting on are

14 the items captured in the table, the fact that

15 we're going to account for losses. We don't

16 specify how but at a general level, we would like

17 to account for motor losses. We're going to

18 equally weight the pump input power at these load

19 points in our numerator. We're going to have the

20 minimally compliant uncontrolled pump as a

21 denominator in both cases. This will make the PER

22 just in terms of how you're observing it on a
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1 label range from zero to one, where one is the

2 worst pump you can buy. That's how it will look.

3 We had talked previously about trying to

4 make a metric where higher is better. With this,

5 you could either flip them or do one minus this

6 metric. I feel comfortable with a lower is better

7 scenario, but the Working Group can certainly

8 discuss that.

9 And then we need to make an assumption

10 for drive efficiency. I don't necessarily feel

11 tied to 96 percent, but that would just be a ratio

12 that you can see that's factored out in the left13 hand side to account for the fact that you will

14 observe some increased power because of the drive

15 efficiency. And that's easy to accomplish in this

16 metric. Okay.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis?

18 MR. STARR: So I guess maybe the pump

19 guys have a better idea about this, but typically

20 pumps are listed in efficiency; a higher21 efficiency pump is better. And so then you go

22 into when you connect it up in an extended
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1 product, now a better efficiency pump is actually

2 lower. So it seems like you would want those two

3 to match up in my mind, but maybe the pump guys

4 can talk about --

5 MS. WIDDER: So we have to think about

6 these not as efficiency because even in the

7 constant load application, lower is better. Lower

8 is better. Lower is better with PER, the way it's

9 presented on the screen here.

10 MR. STARR: Yes.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber?

12 MR. HUBER: Yes. I was just going to

13 reiterate what she is trying to say here. I was

14 confused like you. I'm used to seeing efficiency

15 in the higher-efficiency is better. But we're

16 really not talking about pump efficiency here.

17 We're talking about horsepower. And so the lower

18 horsepower we use or the less horsepower we use,

19 that is better. That's why we went along with it.

20 We think it's reasonable.

21 Now, I don't know how good a metric is

22 going to be at one to zero and you've got a .5 and
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1 a .25. You might better to up that times five and

2 make it five, four, three, or two, one, or

3 something.

4 MS. WIDDER: Sure.

5 MR. HUBER: That's not up for me to say.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Louis?

7 MR. STARR: So if you want maybe

8 disassemble from it, then it would be good not to

9 have it to zero, one so the same mistakes I made

10 wouldn't happen for the people in the market as

11 well. So maybe putting a scaler in there would

12 help it out.

13 MS. WIDDER: Okay.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Please say your name for

15 the record.

16 MR. HU: Jiangang Hu from Rockwell

17 Automation. Recently we are working on the drive

18 efficiency standard for IEC. I work with Dan for

19 those. Actually, we have several points. Now is

20 not defined how many points, but we have like 25

21 percent, 75 percent. Actually, we covered all of

22 this stuff, so for the counter performance and
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1 maybe we can also use like several points for

2 drive efficiency definition --

3 MS. WIDDER: So yes.

4 MR. HU: -- so more like optimize the

5 efficiency calculations.

6 MS. WIDDER: Yes. And that's definitely

7 something we can consider. We have had a few

8 previous discussions about that. The issue from a

9 pump manufacturer's standpoint who will be the

10 regulated entity in this case is that information

11 is not widely available. And so that would be a

12 lot more burden from their perspective to either

13 require all their drive manufacturers to provide

14 that part load data. I mean, that's definitely

15 something that we can consider.

16 MR. ADIN: But that's along the same

17 lines as the motor question.

18 MS. WIDDER: Oh, yes, yes.

19 MR. ADIN: So are we talking about the

20 default efficiency that's used in the equation or

21 what a manufacturer could actually use to

22 represent the efficiency of their product? Because
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1 if we design it such that there is a test, then

2 they wouldn't have to worry about that. If they

3 wanted to represent a better efficiency, they

4 could either, you know, acquire --

5 MS. WIDDER: Right.

6 MR. ADIN: -- data or run a test.

7 MS. WIDDER: So that's a whole different

8 discussion. But to add on to what Lucas is saying

9 and actually respond to both of those comments,

10 taking this one step further and actually thinking

11 about how you might certify products, we had

12 talked about a calculation approach, which has a

13 lot of defaults built in where you can essentially

14 just measure pump shaft input power as they do in

15 the industry commonly today and look up full load

16 motor efficiency values and drive efficiency

17 values and calculate your pump rating as for the

18 variable load application. That would be the

19 simplest and least burdensome approach. There are

20 clearly more complex approaches where you can have

21 wire to water tests that include a pump and a

22 motor, a pump and a motor and a VFD. You could
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1 rate the motor and combine them, the two together,

2 in some interpolation method.

3 There's a lot of options that we have

4 discussed there that I don't think we are

5 considering as a default at this point. We're

6 just considering the least-burdensome calculation

7 approach that is accessible for everyone at this

8 point. And we can certainly discuss the testing

9 options as options that may be available right

10 away if manufacturers want to do a full wire to

11 water and improve their rating beyond what is

12 available in the calculation default.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Dan?

14 MR. DELANEY: Just to clarify, the

15 activity that's going on here is a three-part

16 activity. The Europeans are requiring this as

17 part of the regulation for the motor, drive, and

18 obviously extended product. The IEC version of

19 that is doing a similar approach. Right? They're

20 going to develop a drive efficiency, a motor

21 efficiency use on a drive -- so each one of these

22 will be individually identified as efficiency
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1 levels -- and then the whole extended product

2 itself. So a three-part type approach where the

3 extended product is more like an approach to use,

4 rather than a defined level -- okay? -- much like

5 how the Euro pump standard is today. But each of

6 these would have their own individual assigned

7 efficiency level. It's somewhat debatable how

8 that is going to happen, whether that is going to

9 be a weighted factor table, whether that is going

10 to be more specific load points.

11 MS. WIDDER: Okay.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber?

13 MR. HUBER: We are going to have to

14 deviate from what the Europeans are doing, mainly

15 because the DOE can only regulate the

16 manufacturer; whereas, Europe can regulate the

17 marketplace, and we can't here or we don't. So

18 you're going to end up with a different scheme. We

19 finally realized that down the -- you're going to

20 end up with some differences. And that's the

21 reason why. Now, Europeans don't like it, but

22 that's the way it is.
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1 MR. DELANEY: I think where we're at

2 today, we're going to to find the exact same

3 regulations going to occur. You're going to have

4 a pump regulation. You're going to have a motor

5 efficiency for use on a drive eventually. That's

6 what they're having to address, essentially, from

7 their regulation. And most likely that's what's

8 going to end up occurring here as well.

9 MR. HUBER: Yes. I think -- but the

10 problem is today that information is not readily

11 available. And the control people have just

12 started. We assume that the DOE at some point in

13 time may change this regulation to reflect the

14 information when it becomes available. For right

15 now, we're just going to use the default

16 efficiency for the control; correct?

17 MS. WIDDER: Yes.

18 MR. HUBER: I mean, that's what we're

19 proposing because the information is not here.

20 MR. DELANEY: I don't disagree.

21 MR. HUBER: And they don't want, DOE

22 doesn't want, to wait for you guys to get it done.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: That was a very helpful

2 and direct exchange between Dan and Al and Dan and

3 Al. We have to get a little bit more disciplined

4 about saying our names when we speak.

5 Sarah, I want you to keep leading this.

6 MS. WIDDER: Okay. So I am going to go

7 back to this summary slide. And I think are there

8 any other concerns? I'd like to welcome any other

9 concerns about the general metric construct as we

10 have it here.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis?

12 MR. STARR: So it's not really a

13 concern. It may be helpful to understand how that

14 examples play out in terms of maybe just some

15 basic examples, see how the numbers fall out. Have

16 you looked at that to see how --

17 MS. WIDDER: Yes, certainly have. I

18 actually don't know if I have them in this slide

19 deck. I don't know if I have them in this slide

20 deck.

21 MR. STARR: Actually, I don't really

22 need to know the numbers, just kind of a general
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1 overview of how they fell out and --

2 MS. WIDDER: Okay.

3 MR. STARR: -- how they're -- you know,

4 relative scale of --

5 MS. WIDDER: Right.

6 MR. STARR: -- uncontrolled to

7 controlled.

8 MS. WIDDER: So, in general, if you

9 calculated -- so I'll use three examples. No. I

10 could do four examples. So one is a PER for a

11 constant load application. It is just rated as a

12 bare pump. So we'll go back to this slide. So

13 it's just a bare pump. And we're applying the

14 constant load metric. It would have a PER in the

15 way we define the metric, .9. Let's say it's a

16 little bit better than the minimum standard that

17 we have set. So it's near one but a little bit

18 less than one because it has the default minimum

19 efficient motor and no controls. So it's not

20 going to be able to be that much better than the

21 standard. There's not that much you can do from a

22 hydraulic perspective. We talked about that
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1 yesterday. If I took that same pump and rated it

2 with a motor that was slightly better than the DOE

3 minimum standard motor, that would further reduce

4 my PER. So that benefit and efficiency that you

5 are achieving from the motor would be captured.

6 Let's say you went from a .9 to a .87. I'm making

7 these numbers up, but general trend and magnitude

8 is probably about right. So you're reducing the

9 PER, some portion, reflective of the efficiency,

10 the improved efficiency, of the motor.

11 If you were then to put controls on,

12 let's say, variable frequency drive, on that same

13 pump and motor package, that would probably reduce

14 your PER by using the load points that we have

15 assumed, something like 50 percent. So you would

16 go from like a .87 to something less than .5, .4

17 or something. And then if you were -- yes. So

18 those are the three, probably the best examples to

19 go from.

20 MR. STARR: And so in your mind, does

21 that kind of also equate sort of to the energy

22 usage more or less percentage-wise? You know, in
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1 other words, 50 percent is probably what you can

2 expect out of the VFD or --

3 MS. WIDDER: To the best of the data

4 that we have available, which is really not a lot,

5 that's probably about right. It's not terribly

6 wrong. You know, of course, these guys will tell

7 you it will depend on application.

8 MR. STARR: Yes.

9 MS. WIDDER: It will depend on, you

10 know, a lot of things.

11 MR. STARR: But it's good. I mean, at

12 least it matches up to reality, you know, and to

13 the marketplace.

14 MS. WIDDER: Yes.

15 MR. STARR: And so that's helpful. And

16 the metric, actually, reflects what is actually

17 happening in the field. So good.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Meg?

19 MS. WALTNER: Yes. So I may have missed

20 this in what you just said, but is it right that

21 the PER will never actually be one since you have

22 losses on the bottom but shaft input power on the
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1 top?

2 MS. WIDDER: No. It can be one. There

3 are losses in both cases.

4 MS. WALTNER: So you are measuring them?

5 MS. WIDDER: Yes. If we look at this

6 very bottom equation here --

7 MS. WALTNER: So I don't think losses

8 were in the top of your --

9 MS. WIDDER: So it's confusing --

10 MS. WALTNER: -- other page.

11 MS. WIDDER: -- because the P's

12 represent different things, and I apologize for

13 that. So if we follow this equation all the way

14 down, we start out with weighted average. The P

15 in in this case is the input power to the pump,

16 which we're calling the pump and motor because

17 that's how we defined it before.

18 MR. CAPPELLINO: So it's inclusive of

19 losses.

20 MS. WIDDER: Yes. So it's either

21 measured so it's inclusive of losses. I actually

22 have a slide about this. Well, I won't go there.
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1 It's either measured so it's inclusive of losses

2 or I go down to this bottom equation. I measure

3 the pump shaft input power and calculate the

4 losses in the same way I would in the denominator

5 --

6 MS. WALTNER: Okay.

7 MS. WIDDER: -- if I have a minimally

8 compliant motor. And if I have a better --

9 MS. WALTNER: -- or a motor that you

10 don't want to test.

11 MS. WIDDER: Right, or if I have a

12 better efficiency motor, let's say our 95 percent

13 example, I can still use the calculation approach.

14 My full load efficiency is better. And then I

15 apply a - I'll call it similar loss curve. So I'm

16 still calculating losses. It could be the same

17 default loss curve. We could come up with a

18 different curve that is a function of efficiency.

19 So if you have a better efficient motor, you have

20 a different loss curve. You know, there are a lot

21 of details we can get into there, but,

22 essentially, for every pump and motor, we would
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1 measure. We would have the pump shaft input power

2 and losses or we would test wire to water.

3 MR. ADIN: So just for clarification --

4 this is Lucas, DOE -- one basically means it is

5 minimally compliant; right?

6 MS. WIDDER: Yes.

7 MR. ADIN: It is exactly equal to --

8 MS. WIDDER: Right.

9 MR. ADIN: Right. And if we're --

10 MS. WALTNER: Yes.

11 MS. WIDDER: It is exactly equal to the

12 standard.

13 MS. WALTNER: I was confused with the

14 other slide's equation, where Pin wasn't -- I

15 wasn't clear that that was --

16 MS. WIDDER: That was pump --

17 MS. WALTNER: I know that was shaft

18 power versus --

19 MS. WIDDER: I know. We keep calling --

20 the term "pump" is going to mean pump and motor

21 for us. And every time I refer to the shaft input

22 power, I'm going to try and be really clear, we
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1 are going to try and be really clear, that that is

2 bare shaft input power to the bare pump.

3 MR. ADIN: So the other question I had

4 is we want to think about calling this something

5 other than PER because for PER min., where it's

6 the standard, this is actually an index to a PER

7 value; right? It's not the same thing as -- you

8 see what I mean?

9 MS. WIDDER: Well, so yes. We made up

10 the term PER; right?

11 MR. ADIN: Right.

12 MS. WIDDER: So we can define it any way

13 we want.

14 MR. ADIN: No. I'm just pointing out

15 that the meaning has changed --

16 MS. WIDDER: The meaning has changed --

17 MR. ADIN: -- now that it has been

18 indexed.

19 MS. WIDDER: -- from before.

20 MR. ADIN: Yes.

21 MS. WIDDER: So before this was PER and

22 this was PER min.
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1 MR. ADIN: Right.

2 MS. WIDDER: And then we could call it

3 something as a ratio. And we could definitely

4 consider a construct like that and call this a

5 pump index -- I don't know -- you know, whatever

6 term is fine. And then the numerator and

7 denominator are both PERs. We can define PERs by

8 this equation. All of those are still options.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Joanna?

10 MS. MAUER: I was just interested in

11 briefly hearing from the manufacturers why you

12 prefer this denominator to hydraulic power as a

13 denominator. Is it because it's most similar to

14 EEI or is there some other reason and --

15 MR. HUBER: Ask it again.

16 MS. MAUER: Sorry.

17 MR. HUBER: Ask it again.

18 MS. MAUER: So I think one of the

19 options for the denominator was to have the

20 hydraulic power in the denominator somewhere, a

21 kind of a physical quantity in the denominator.

22 And I was just curious --
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1 MR. HUBER: Do you want to answer it?

2 MS. MAUER: -- why you prefer --

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg Case?

4 MS. MAUER: -- this denominator?

5 MR. CASE: Greg Case, HI. If we put

6 hydraulic power in there, we would be comparing

7 the pump to itself. We wouldn't be comparing the

8 pump to a standard. So this compares the pump to

9 a minimally compliant standard pump. So it

10 compares against the industry.

11 MS. MAUER: So this is Joanna. So, as I

12 understand it, if you had hydraulic power in the

13 denominator, you could still compare one pump to

14 another, see which has a higher efficiency.

15 MR. HUBER: No.

16 MS. MAUER: It's not an index, but

17 either way you can tell which pump has lower

18 power.

19 MS. WIDDER: Right. So Joanna is right.

20 Another example for a denominator that we

21 discussed -- and "denominator" is in quotes here

22 because I flipped it. So higher is better. So
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1 it's more like efficiency in this case. So

2 translation, you know, weighting, normalization,

3 whatever you want to call it, but in this case --

4 and this is feasible to do. It turns out more

5 like a system efficiency, where now the pump shaft

6 input power and the losses are on the denominator.

7 That's your input power energy that's on the

8 denominator. Your output power, the flow times

9 head condition at the end of the pump, is on the

10 numerator. And you would have to calculate that

11 at each load point as a ratio, as opposed to like

12 the big ratio we were looking at before. You want

13 to calculate that uniquely at each load point,

14 weight those. You could or could not have a load

15 control factor.

16 We have sort of discussed a construct

17 where we don't have a load control factor. So I

18 could delete this. But it's also an option. So I

19 want to acknowledge that it's a technically -- I

20 have no idea what I just did. Okay. It's a

21 technically feasible option. The minimally

22 compliant denominator that we discussed before is
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1 more similar to the extended product pump approach

2 that has been milling in the EU with their EEI

3 index. So that's a benefit.

4 Other than that, I see these as both

5 technically feasible approaches. This is a

6 weighted average of efficiency that could be

7 helpful or could be confusing because it's using

8 an efficiency in a way that's not really an

9 efficiency because it's a weighted average. And

10 so that could be confusing. I don't know. It's

11 sort of like six of one, half a dozen of the

12 other, to be honest with you.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber?

14 MR. HUBER: I think we need to be

15 careful here. We're not using efficiency. We're

16 using horsepower.

17 MS. WIDDER: Right. This, as it's

18 calculated, would be an efficiency.

19 MR. HUBER: Yes. We're not using

20 efficiency. We're using horsepower.

21 MS. WIDDER: In the previous --

22 MR. HUBER: What we're trying to do --
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1 MS. WIDDER: -- case where --

2 MR. HUBER: -- and the reason we want a

3 denominator the way it is, the denominator

4 basically is the throttle condition. The

5 denominator is the throttle condition. The pump

6 power at each one of those loads will be whatever

7 that power is that that pump consumes at that

8 load. Okay?

9 MS. MAUER: This is Joanna. The

10 denominator you're saying?

11 MR. HUBER: In the denominator.

12 MS. MAUER: Not what that pump consumes

13 but what a pump that just meets the --

14 MR. HUBER: What a minimum --

15 MS. MAUER: Okay.

16 MR. HUBER: Whatever we set that level

17 --

18 MS. MAUER: Right.

19 MR. HUBER: -- a minimum compliant pump,

20 whatever it draws that power, it draws at 25

21 horsepower or 50, 75, 100, that's what will be in

22 that denominator. It will be basically the
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1 throttle condition. The denominator is the

2 throttle condition.

3 MS. MAUER: This is Joanna.

4 MR. HUBER: It is.

5 MS. MAUER: I don't have a problem with

6 this. I just --

7 MR. HUBER: If you look at it --

8 MS. MAUER: -- was trying to understand

9 why you --

10 MR. HUBER: Right? I mean, that's --

11 MS. WIDDER: From my opinion, there's

12 really not a compelling reason to choose one or

13 the other. It won't significantly impact how a

14 pump compares to the standard. There are pros and

15 cons on either side.

16 MR. HUBER: So what we are trying to do

17 is keep this so that what the consumer is looking

18 for is he is looking for -- let's say he has a

19 variable condition in the field, let's say. Okay?

20 So we're giving him at the bottom -- we're going

21 to give him an index. And that index basically is

22 the denominator of what would happen if he
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1 throttled it. And the numerator is what is going

2 to happen if he is using a variable speed drive.

3 MS. WIDDER: So I just want to correct

4 that --

5 MR. HUBER: Okay. So if I --

6 MS. WIDDER: -- really quickly. Sorry,

7 Al. So the denominator is a throttled minimally

8 compliant pump. It's not the throttled same pump.

9 Sorry. We're all on the same page. We're just

10 saying it a little wrong. So I just want to make

11 sure we captured it properly in the metric.

12 MR. HUBER: Do you understand what

13 throttle -- when we talk about throttle, it's you

14 take a valve and you throttle that.

15 MS. MAUER: I understand that; right. I

16 think, as Sarah said, it's just it's not that pump

17 throttled. It's what a minimally compliant pump

18 throttled.

19 MR. HUBER: Exactly. So if I produce a

20 pump and I decide that I am going to use a premium

21 efficient motor and I'm going to use a more

22 efficient drive, then my number is going to be
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1 better than that of some other comparison that may

2 be the minimally acceptable. Do you understand

3 what we're doing?

4 MS. MAUER: I understand. And I think

5 if you use hydraulic power, similarly, you would

6 see a benefit of using a more efficient motor, a

7 drive. I think they're both options for showing

8 ratings where you can see that the controlled case

9 is better.

10 MR. HUBER: I guess we're trying to make

11 this so that it to us is logical and that doesn't

12 confuse the market. What we're trying to do is

13 help educate the market as we go here so that if

14 -- that's the reason we wanted two

15 different metrics: one for constant speed or

16 constant load application and one for a variable

17 load because they're totally different, absolutely

18 different. And trying to jam the same metric in

19 there to read both is just not doable.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Tom Eckman and then

21 coming back to Dan.

22 MR. ECKMAN: Yes. This is --
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1 MR. HUBER: So what we are trying to do,

2 Joanna, is we are trying to make the denominator

3 be real life. That's real life. If throttle that

4 back and in the test, if I decide to test it, I

5 can put a valve out there and throttle it. And

6 that's the way we test today.

7 MS. MAUER: I understand.

8 MR. HUBER: That's the way all of us

9 test today.

10 MS. MAUER: I understand.

11 MR. HUBER: So, I mean, it flows. For

12 us, it flows very logically.

13 MS. WILLIAMS: Can I clarify --

14 MR. HUBER: And for the industry, it

15 flows logically.

16 MS. WIDDER: I want to let Tom go first

17 if that's okay, Alison.

18 MS. WILLIAMS: I just want to make sure

19 that what's up there is what Al is saying.

20 MS. WIDDER: It is. We talked about it.

21 MR. HUBER: We discussed it.

22 MS. WILLIAMS: The bottom is not 25, 50,
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1 75, 100 uncontrolled. Okay.

2 MS. WIDDER: It's the standard for an

3 uncontrolled minimally compliant pump. I think

4 we're all on the same page. It was just being

5 discussed in words that were a little confusing.

6 But I want to acknowledge Tom.

7 MR. ECKMAN: Yes.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Tom, go next.

9 MR. ECKMAN: Yes. So the question is,

10 by using the 75, BEP, and 1.1, you've got a

11 throttle condition at the 75. So if you've got a

12 control system and/or a variable speed, you may

13 get some benefit out of that, even under the

14 standard compliant method; right? Is that true?

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Tom, yes.

16 MR. ECKMAN: For a minimally compliant

17 motor, you have got one condition where it's

18 throttled and one condition where it's above BEP,

19 1.1. So if you've got an uncontrolled motor,

20 you're going to have to throttle it to get it to

21 the 75; right? And you're going to have to over22 spin it to get it to 1.1, right?
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1 MS. WIDDER: No.

2 MR. HUBER: BEP.

3 MR. ECKMAN: BEP. Okay. Flow.

4 MS. WIDDER: Because it's BEP flow, and

5 those are not the same load points on the motor.

6 MR. ECKMAN: Right. Okay.

7 MS. WIDDER: Yes. No over-speeding.

8 MR. ECKMAN: Yes.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: So summarize what was

10 just said because I was cacophoning.

11 MS. WIDDER: Okay. So I am going to try

12 and summarize. Correct me if I'm wrong. We were

13 discussing what the load points meant --

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.

15 MS. WIDDER: -- in regard to application

16 to the motor. And one thing we didn't present

17 here is how the motor is sized for these

18 calculations. So we're going to assume a defined

19 and universally applicable sizing method where the

20 motor is representative of what is done in the

21 industry but above the BEP flow point. And so the

22 110 percent BEP flow point will not be larger than
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1 the full load of the motor. So there will be no

2 over-speeding of the motor.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. That was

4 useful.

5 Okay. Louis? Oh, pardon me. Dan? I

6 left you out. Dan?

7 MR. DELANEY: Yes. Dan Delaney, Regal.

8 I appreciate Alison's point about this is about

9 power. This is about, you know, reducing the

10 power consumption. And one of the things I just

11 want to point out this week -- I've talked about

12 this before. The way that we have this worded, I

13 understand it's the simplest way; right? We have

14 a fixed frequency regulation upon that. That's on

15 an induction motor, induction motor only. That's

16 the unfortunate part about this, is that other

17 technologies don't have a standard, don't have a

18 regulation that would fit into that today. I just

19 want to point that out because it is about power.

20 And those advanced technologies will reduce that

21 power dramatically across those lower points.

22 And, just so I understand, it's the
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1 regulation, the testing. They don't have that

2 capability today to value those points. There is

3 no ability to do the same type of motor losses in

4 that same manner. So those technologies would not

5 fall under the wording we have today as it is

6 stated there.

7 Again, we'll work with you to make sure

8 that -- you know, we want to make sure we choose

9 the right -- the best technology for the end

10 customer.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.

12 Louis? Wait. Greg, do you want to just

13 comment, a follow-on, there?

14 MR. CASE: I think we do -- Dan, I think

15 we have that in the fact that we can test to throw

16 in the better technology. So this is the minimum

17 values for these motors. This is the minimally

18 compliant based on current A/C induction motor

19 technology. You can throw in the better

20 performing motor and drive system. And you will

21 be able to improve this PER. So I think it's in

22 there. The possibility is in there to make those
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1 improvements.

2 MR. STARR: Right. And that's --

3 MR. DELANEY: One last point back to

4 that. So as the efforts as NEMA, as Rob just

5 mentioned to me again, we have started those

6 discussions; right, so making those assumptions,

7 agreed, that's where we are today. Pick those

8 tables. Move forward with those losses. We're

9 looking to translate that. What does that look

10 like against a fixed weighted curve? So we don't

11 know that specifically today, but we are doing

12 that as a NEMA survey today is building those

13 relationships. What are those efficiencies? How

14 do they translate? Are they down? Are they

15 equal?

16 So that is something NEMA is working on.

17 Certainly induction motors, number one on the list

18 won't exclude other technologies certainly and

19 certainly provide and share that with this Working

20 Group as we develop those.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis? And before you

22 do, I'm eager for us to make any additional
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1 clarifications, ask any additional questions as we

2 move toward seeing where we stand with respect to

3 this metric among all the members present. Louis?

4 MR. STARR: So I have a question. At 75

5 percent of BEP, where does that roughly correlate

6 with flow, percentage of full flow?

7 MS. WIDDER: Seventy-five percent.

8 MR. STARR: Percent of BEP. So you're

9 --

10 MS. WIDDER: Flow, percent of BEP flow.

11 MR. STARR: Right. So how much flow --

12 if I had a pump and I tested at the 75 percent

13 point, where am I at in terms of flow? Yes. I

14 mean, where --

15 MS. WIDDER: Seventy-five percent.

16 MR. STARR: Of flow.

17 MS. WIDDER: Of flow, of flow.

18 MR. STARR: Okay. Okay.

19 MS. WIDDER: Yes.

20 MR. STARR: I thought it was BEP-rated.

21 MR. HUBER: If your rating point, your

22 BEP, is 1,000 gallons --
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1 MR. STARR: Okay.

2 MR. HUBER: -- then 75 percent is 750.

3 MR. STARR: Okay.

4 MS. WIDDER: Gallons.

5 MR. HUBER: And the 110 would be 10

6 percent more, or 1,100.

7 MR. STARR: Okay. I thought what if the

8 efficiency became that --

9 MR. HUBER: We're not --

10 MR. STARR: -- 75 percent and that made

11 it flow.

12 MR. HUBER: Yes.

13 MR. STARR: Okay.

14 MS. WIDDER: No, no.

15 MR. STARR: That's all I --

16 MR. HUBER: I want to clarify something.

17 What we originally wanted to do --

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber, please.

19 MR. HUBER: What we originally wanted to

20 do was have on the denominator four points.

21 However, we do not test at 25 because we don't

22 recommend you run the pump there. Now, we could
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1 calculate it.

2 PARTICIPANT: We show it on a curve.

3 MR. HUBER: We show it on our curves,

4 but we don't run it there because it's not good. I

5 mean, we may test it there because we're only

6 there for a few minutes, but we don't normally

7 because it's not something -- it would not be in

8 the operating range of the pump. Therefore, we

9 would recommend that you not do it anyway. So

10 that's what we had preferred on the bottom, which

11 would give you a real look at throttled and

12 unthrottled. But you shouldn't be throttling it

13 at 25 anyway.

14 So, I mean, you know, there's a debate

15 here about that. And I think that Sarah thought

16 that if we used consistently the denominator from

17 both cases, it would make it easier --

18 MS. WIDDER: Yes. I agree with that.

19 MR. HUBER: -- to make it consistent. So

20 I want to clarify that.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Louis?

22 MR. DELANEY: And I think maybe Sarah
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1 can clarify it. My understanding is that it

2 doesn't really change that much the rating.

3 Whether you use 50, 75, or all those numbers, you

4 get a substantial amount of the benefit.

5 MS. WIDDER: Yes. That's --

6 MR. DELANEY: It shows up. And so it

7 doesn't really matter too much.

8 MS. WIDDER: That's exactly correct. All

9 that would happen if we used the same weighting

10 points above and below is that the magnitude of

11 benefit, like the relative benefit, would be a

12 little bit less because in this case, you're not

13 accounting for that reduced performance. You

14 know, you're giving more credit to the controls,

15 essentially, with different weightings, a little

16 bit more credit. And that is all that's

17 happening. It won't change the ranking of pumps.

18 It won't change the comparison of configurations

19 as a general trend.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Doug?

21 MR. POTTS: I just have a question for

22 clarification. So with regard to the minimally
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1 compliant motor and the choice, I guess what

2 you're saying is manufacturers have a choice of

3 either calculating the efficiencies of -- adding

4 calculations for the minimally compliant motor

5 based upon I guess a table that would be provided

6 or doing the wire to water testing.

7 So, just to be clear, if a manufacturer

8 feels that the pump that he's selling with that

9 pump -- or the motor that he's selling with that

10 pump is just a minimally compliant motor, then

11 he's probably just better off just using the

12 calculation.

13 MS. WIDDER: Right.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: If he feels that the

15 motor -- if he knows that the motor is more

16 efficient, then it's to his advantage to test it

17 with the better motor; right?

18 MS. WIDDER: Well, to be clear, there

19 are two options there. And so this table sort of

20 lays it out. So for a pump and motor case, which

21 is the center column that we were just discussing,

22 a manufacturer can either test the bare pump
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1 itself and then get the motor nameplate full load

2 efficiency that's provided by the motor

3 manufacturer and apply the loss curve. So you can

4 still account for the benefit of applying a more

5 efficient motor, but you have a default loss

6 curve.

7 Alternatively, if you think your motor

8 has better losses than the default curve allows

9 for or you think you can improve your rating or

10 you want to do a wire to water test, any of those,

11 we could provide the testing option.

12 MR. POTTS: So does that mean there are

13 three scenarios basically? One scenario is just a

14 lookup table for the minimally compliant? The

15 other scenario is nameplate efficiency of your

16 motor? And the third scenario is shop-tested wire

17 to water efficiency?

18 MS. WIDDER: So that gets a little bit

19 into certification.

20 MR. POTTS: Right, right.

21 MS. WIDDER: So, in general, you would

22 only use the default motor efficiency if you were
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1 selling a bare pump with no motor.

2 MR. POTTS: Okay.

3 MS. WIDDER: And if you were selling it

4 with a motor, you should reflect the efficiency of

5 the motor you are selling your pump with. But

6 there is a calculation to do that. So it is

7 pretty easy. You know, there is a whole

8 discussion about grouping of models that we don't

9 need to have right now that could reduce that a

10 little bit, but it's really not that difficult to

11 do some more calculations.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis Starr, go ahead.

13 MR. STARR: Louis Starr with NEEA. One

14 thing that will probably happen is eventually if

15 the motor guys actually do come up with something,

16 there will an AEDM, alternative efficiency

17 determination method. And then you will be able

18 to calculate it more than one way. But for this

19 one, we're starting with a base one.

20 MS. WIDDER: Yes.

21 MR. STARR: But as they figure out how

22 their motors perform, then -- what happens is it
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1 will be the -- most people will just choose the

2 calculation method because it doesn't cost

3 anything to certify it. So there will be less

4 people out actually testing. So the motor guys

5 are not being disadvantaged because their motor

6 would be more efficient. Everybody will just

7 default to calculating, rather than actually

8 testing to show the advantage of their motors. But

9 eventually they will have an AEDM, which you can

10 do a calculation similar to the minimally

11 efficient morrow.

12 MS. WIDDER: Yes. I think we want to

13 acknowledge that this is a starting point and

14 hopefully leaves open options for testing of full

15 products and reflecting more diversity in the

16 market later on.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Dan?

18 MR. DELANEY: Yes. Just to reiterate

19 with Louis said, it somewhat penalizes -- you're

20 right -- advanced technology, ones that we feel

21 above. And I would hope that we would have

22 through the assumed part load losses you have
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1 there that ability to have that discussion with

2 motor manufacturers today through NEMA to provide

3 maybe an assumed part load loss for, if you will,

4 you know, a baseline for advanced technologies, an

5 induction motor line that you may have today. It

6 may have been an assumed advanced motor technology

7 --

8 MS. WIDDER: Yes.

9 MR. DELANEY: -- part load loss.

10 MS. WIDDER: I would love to have that

11 discussion. I also would encourage you as motor

12 manufacturers, maybe even outside of this meeting,

13 to have a discussion with the pump manufacturers,

14 who will be the ones that have to test. So the

15 tradeoff here is really between testing burden and

16 accuracy. And I don't think that's a decision for

17 us to make. That's something that we would like

18 to be negotiated here.

19 MR. ADIN: And that's why we generally

20 try and make the default assumptions relatively

21 conservative. So that there is a benefit from

22 assuming that increased test burden of actually
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1 getting a number or if you're going to use that

2 better component, whether it is a motor, you know,

3 or something else where there is a default, you

4 can test to that wire to water test and realize

5 the benefit. Otherwise you're just getting the

6 default.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: That was Lucas Adin.

8 MR. ADIN: Right.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Now to Al Huber.

10 MR. HUBER: Well, I think new technology

11 will be valued by what you're doing. I think

12 you're mistaken. I don't think we'll shortchange

13 that because we're probably going to have to pay

14 more for that. In order to be able to sell it,

15 we're going to have to show a benefit, a value to

16 the customer. So, therefore, we would probably

17 test it or I assume you will have a nameplate on

18 it. And so you'll have a nameplate efficiency.

19 And there's a way for us to calculate that if we

20 calculate it.

21 I also would not assume that pump

22 manufacturers will not test because we all have
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1 sales folks. And they like to go out and talk

2 about how ours is better than the other guy's. So

3 I wouldn't assume that pump manufacturers are not

4 going to do testing.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: We've covered a lot of

6 ground here. Sarah, do you think we have missed

7 anything significant?

8 MS. WIDDER: No. I feel really

9 comfortable with what I understand to be a general

10 consensus. I'm going to briefly summarize where I

11 think we are and --

12 MR. BROOKMAN: I don't think we're quite

13 ready to vote on this because I am casting --

14 MS. WIDDER: No. I'm just going to

15 welcome --

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Yes.

17 MS. WIDDER: -- additional feedback --

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Good. That's good.

19 MS. WIDDER: -- on my summary.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Because I want --

21 MS. WIDDER: Lucas, do you want --

22 MR. BROOKMAN: As a process note, I just
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1 wanted to say that, casting my eyes around the

2 room, a few individuals have indicated to me that

3 they are not quite ready to vote on this yet.

4 MS. WIDDER: Right.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: But, Lucas, do you want

6 to say something?

7 MR. ADIN: Well, there is just one more

8 question I want to ask to make sure I am

9 absolutely clear on this item. This is more the

10 implementation aspect and how this will be

11 employed --

12 PARTICIPANT: Yes.

13 MR. ADIN: -- on pumps actually put in

14 the market. We had talked about putting two

15 numbers on a nameplate. I want to make sure I

16 understand which ones they are because I think the

17 nomenclature is still a little bit confusing. And

18 we talk about control or constant load and

19 variable load, but, really, in a way, those are

20 both variable load; right?

21 PARTICIPANT: Yes.

22 MR. ADIN: But the idea is that on a
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1 pump with a VFD, you would have both numbers;

2 right, on there to show the difference between

3 what it would look like -- what are the two

4 numbers that would be on the nameplate? I want to

5 make sure I understand what it is that you are

6 proposing here.

7 MR. HUBER: Well, they are not the same.

8 They are not both variable. You will have one --

9 when we say, "constant load," what we're talking

10 about here is that you do not have any change in

11 the system. The system stays constant. The pump

12 never changes. No speed changes. No valves are

13 functioning, opening and closing. It's just one

14 flow, one head.

15 MR. ADIN: Right.

16 MR. HUBER: That's the constant load.

17 MR. ADIN: I understand that.

18 MR. HUBER: Okay.

19 MR. ADIN: Yes.

20 MR. HUBER: That will be on there. That

21 will be on there as PER CL if that's what we end

22 up calling this stuff.
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1 MS. WIDDER: So I do want to correct

2 that just slightly.

3 MR. HUBER: Now, let me --

4 MS. WIDDER: Okay. Go ahead. And then

5 --

6 MR. HUBER: And then if you have a

7 variable load, you will have another number on the

8 nameplate that says PER VL. And that will be if

9 you use it for a variable speed application.

10 MS. WIDDER: Right. So the --

11 MR. HUBER: The system curves are

12 changing. And you're using it in a controlled

13 environment --

14 MR. ADIN: Right.

15 MR. HUBER: -- with a VSD.

16 MS. WIDDER: So the slight correction I

17 want to make to that is that for the constant load

18 application, we're still accounting for the power

19 at between 75 and 100 percent of BEP, which I

20 think the pump manufacturers are in their minds

21 thinking about relatively constant. I mean,

22 that's where we get pumps operating in life.
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1 MR. HUBER: Okay.

2 MS. WIDDER: And so we're thinking about

3 that, capturing the range of performance where a

4 constant load might be, because it's very unlikely

5 that you hit the BEP exactly.

6 MR. ADIN: Right.

7 MS. WIDDER: I think that's what we're

8 thinking of here.

9 MR. ADIN: That clarifies that point.

10 The other question was we have been talking a lot

11 about how you compare a throttled pump to a pump

12 used with a VFD. So the pump that was sold just

13 as a bare pump plus motor have that metric use for

14 comparison on it. So, say, if you were to use

15 this pump with a VFD and control its speed, this

16 is what its rating would look like.

17 MR. HUBER: Yes. That's what you would

18 expect.

19 MR. ADIN: You have both numbers.

20 MR. HUBER: You would have to have both

21 numbers --

22 MR. ADIN: On both.
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1 MR. HUBER: -- on the nameplate or the

2 label.

3 MR. ADIN: On both configurations.

4 MR. HUBER: Because we don't know how

5 it's going to be.

6 MR. ADIN: Right.

7 MR. HUBER: I mean, a lot of times, we

8 do, but a lot of times, we do not know how they're

9 going to utilize the pump.

10 MR. ADIN: Okay.

11 MR. HUBER: So we need to put both on

12 there.

13 MR. ADIN: In both configurations?

14 MR. HUBER: Yes.

15 MR. ADIN: Right. Okay. I understand.

16 MR. HUBER: For the consumer to say,

17 "Okay. If I use it in this method," --

18 MR. ADIN: Yes.

19 MR. HUBER: -- "this is what I should

20 use."

21 MR. ADIN: All right.

22 MR. HUBER: "If I use it in this method,
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1 this is what I should use" as a comparison.

2 MR. ADIN: Okay. Thank you. That's

3 helpful. Thanks.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie Cappellino?

5 MR. CAPPELLINO: So, Doug, I agree with

6 you. I think before I would be comfortable voting

7 because I think I'm pretty close, but walking

8 through some more scenarios that basically talk

9 about and maybe some example I think would help,

10 basically help, cement this in people's minds how

11 it would work.

12 And then I still think we need to spend

13 a little bit more time on Lucas' point in terms of

14 the commercialization of this, you know, "What

15 does it mean? And how would it be implemented?"

16 and kind of walk through the commercialization

17 element of what this is all about.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Maybe we could start with

19 that. Can you be more specific about the kind of

20 question that you have there?

21 MR. CAPPELLINO: I guess, you know, I

22 think there's the testing piece, "Okay. If this
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1 is where we're going, you know, what does it mean

2 from a testing standpoint as a manufacturer? You

3 know, how will that work?" and kind of walk

4 through and make sure we've covered all of the

5 bases.

6 And I'm not sure where the gaps are at

7 this point. I'd like to kind of spend some time

8 and kind of either walk through that as a group or

9 at least individually be able to spend some time

10 on that.

11 I think the labeling piece -- I think we

12 need to spend a little bit more time talking about

13 the labeling, how does that work, how is it

14 interpreted.

15 So I think this is fantastic. I think

16 we have made a huge step forward. But before we

17 lock it down, we need a little more dialogue on

18 the implementation maybe because, frankly, only 20

19 minutes ago, we were still unclear in terms of --

20 MS. WIDDER: What we were doing.

21 MR. CAPPELLINO: -- three terms in the

22 bottom, is it four terms in the bottom. You know,
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1 so it's still a very dynamic situation.

2 MS. WIDDER: Yes.

3 MR. CAPPELLINO: So I think we've made a

4 huge step forward.

5 MS. WIDDER: I am totally with you,

6 Charlie. I think that's a good suggestion. And

7 from anyone in the Working Group, more really

8 concrete requests for things you would like to see

9 -- and I'll open this up -- either at the next

10 meeting or it might be appropriate to have

11 independent like webinars or a subgroup that

12 addresses this content. I don't know what our

13 timing is. That's something for the Working Group

14 to decide. But I would like to make a list like

15 that.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. And, Sarah, do

17 you feel like you can begin to address the

18 questions that Charlie is raising or is that

19 something that you and others are not prepared to

20 do?

21 MS. WIDDER: I mean, I could walk

22 through examples. I think the commercialization
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1 question I would like to have be more of a

2 consensus discussion within the Working Group. I

3 think the other members -- I mean, I don't even

4 vote on this. So I think that's really where the

5 discussion needs to occur.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas?

7 MR. ADIN: So, from a logistical

8 standpoint, if we don't vote on this today, like

9 I've said previously, I think, it doesn't stop the

10 train on standards analysis. Like we can keep --

11 you know, it doesn't hold up the show in that

12 respect. The main area where this becomes

13 important is in the test procedure and us

14 producing a proposed test procedure.

15 So, I mean, I think we can keep on our

16 path prospectively. We just have to be pretty

17 sure about which questions we need to resolve. And

18 I am confident that we can resolve them so that we

19 can definitely have a vote, certainly by the next

20 meeting, that would lock this down.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie, your comment

22 suggests we are not as close to voting as I
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1 thought perhaps we were, that there is more laying

2 this out and being very clear about the

3 implications here than that you would like to see.

4 MR. CAPPELLINO: Yes. Like I said

5 before, you know, up until like an hour ago, --

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.

7 MR. CAPPELLINO: -- it was not clear, I

8 don't think, for everybody in the group.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Right.

10 MR. CAPPELLINO: So I think just having

11 some time -- and maybe it's between now and the

12 next few hours here and over lunch -- to be able

13 to kind of walk through some scenarios, I mean,

14 it's possible we could feel comfortable voting

15 today, but --

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

17 MR. CAPPELLINO: -- my preference,

18 frankly, would be to see some examples that work

19 through. I mean, we have done examples before

20 with other scenarios to make sure everybody

21 understands it --

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Right.
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1 MR. CAPPELLINO: -- the commercial

2 implementation; in other words, you know, if you

3 are in the marketplace, you know, how does this

4 actually work and have people walk through that so

5 it's clear in their minds.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: I'm going to let Greg

7 follow on, then to Arnie.

8 MR. CASE: We haven't said anything to

9 this group, but HI has started a new task force

10 that's supporting the ASRAC HI members in

11 calculations. And we have 15 engineers.

12 What's so funny?

13 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. I'm just

14 not surprised that you need a task force

15 specifically to address this.

16 MR. CASE: So our basic goal for that

17 task force was we wanted all of the manufacturers

18 to have a clearer understanding of what the metric

19 was and calculate through the various metrics that

20 were available to us. And, with that, we meet

21 every Friday on this task force now. And we will

22 be looking at this this Friday with what we come
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1 away with here and sending those 15 engineers out

2 to run their current pump databases through this.

3 And so I would ask that we probably

4 don't vote on this today and that we have some

5 time to come back, run those numbers, and be able

6 to say, "Hey, yes. We're very comfortable with

7 this."

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. That's useful. And

9 that's new data for us. That's helpful.

10 Arnie?

11 MR. SDANO: Arnie Sdano, Pentair. Could

12 I suggest that we would preliminarily accept this

13 concept? And then, as Greg said, do we have a

14 separate group at HI that is looking at this? But

15 what I would like to see would be a webex, where

16 we would have those examples of, you know, here is

17 a bare pump, here is a bare pump with a motor, you

18 know, here is one with the controls. And the

19 different ways we would go through that I think

20 would be a very productive two-hour webinar,

21 probably with that HI group, to look at. That's

22 something that perhaps Sarah could put together
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1 and meet with that group in a webinar to review

2 that.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Louis, you are

4 next, I think.

5 MR. STARR: So on the items to discuss

6 at the next meeting, it would be great if you

7 could provide some examples on the distribution

8 channels of this -- so this is more how the

9 regulations would work in terms of the label or

10 not the label but the actual DOE regulation11 required number on the pump. Who puts that on?

12 Who does not put that on? How does that work in

13 the field? If I'm a distributor and I buy your

14 pump and put it together, do I have to put a label

15 on or does it come that way with all the labels it

16 needs and so just understanding I need to

17 understand how that works in the distribution out

18 to the market?

19 MS. WIDDER: Okay

20 MR. BROOKMAN: So I have heard a couple

21 of different suggestions here. One is that we

22 maybe cannot take a formal vote, but maybe we can
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1 as a general matter in principle say this

2 construct seems to be working. We need to kind of

3 road test it, check it out, perhaps do some

4 additional examples before the next meeting. As

5 Lucas said, that is not going to hold up the

6 analysis if we don't formally vote this in.

7 The other is to just kind of let this

8 thing proceed without any kind of a confirmation,

9 preliminary confirmation, on the general

10 direction, the general construct here.

11 So I am wondering what members'

12 thinkings are about this. Al Huber?

13 MR. HUBER: I think to move this forward

14 -- and I think that is what we are all trying to

15 do -- I think that Arnie's suggestion is a good

16 one. I think if we believe this is reasonable

17 until we check it out, I think we ought to take a

18 vote and say preliminarily we're okay with this,

19 but we're all going to check it out. And he's

20 going to have the 18 engineers on the task force

21 look at it. And I think we've got to get 18

22 opinions, but that's another story.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: And I guess if we did a

2 preliminary acceptance, then we would be clear

3 that no one is bound by that and that everybody,

4 each member present could, all members could,

5 revise their thinking, add new data, more

6 information.

7 Gary?

8 MR. FERNSTROM: So this is Gary. I

9 would like to agree with Al. I would be pleased

10 if we could have some sort of a vote endorsing

11 this on a preliminary basis because I think we put

12 a lot of work into it. And I think the industry

13 has made a really significant contribution in

14 helping us get to a point which is going to be

15 understood by the market and useful in terms of

16 the way it works.

17 MS. WIDDER: And from my perspective, a

18 preliminary vote is helpful just because I want to

19 understand if and where there might be significant

20 reservations. So that's sort of what I was trying

21 to capture today, maybe not locking this in, but I

22 want to make sure everyone is generally
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1 comfortable with this.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: I'd like to ask a

3 question. I think you asked a good question

4 there. Maybe anybody that wishes to can say if

5 they have any significant reservations at this

6 point. Chuck?

7 MR. POWERS: I don't know if the word is

8 "significant" reservations, but I'm going to be

9 clear. We got some information Friday.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.

11 MR. POWERS: We walk in here last night.

12 And it's all good stuff. Don't get me wrong. And

13 we go through it. And, as quick as we can in our

14 own minds, we have been studying this and looking

15 at it. We're saying, "Yes. It looks kind of

16 right. Yes. What about this? What about that?"

17 Don't get me wrong.

18 And now, all of a sudden, like Charlie

19 said, an hour ago, we're getting a better

20 understanding, a definition. And I think Sarah is

21 doing a great job, trying, you know, to work with

22 us. And all of that is perfect. But if we have a
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1 standard in the States that is different than the

2 one that is going to come across in Europe, -- and

3 that's okay -- then some of those global companies

4 are going to end up doubling the cost because the

5 standard here will be X, standard there will be Y,

6 and we have to take that in consideration as

7 companies; right? Because now, all of a sudden,

8 whatever development costs could be more; right,

9 because we have to test the two standards

10 possibly, the two levels of PERs, or whatever, to

11 qualified products; right?

12 And then at the same time, with all of

13 this data, I think, like Arnie kind of said,

14 either a webinar or something, some kind of a

15 sheet that everybody can look at.

16 So, to your point, Sarah, and I think to

17 Al's, we don't get 18 different views. I don't

18 want that either. We say, "Here is what the

19 calculations are showing," rather than coming up

20 with their own set of numbers, "Here is what it is

21 trying to share. And we're having a constant on

22 the motor. You're saying here is the motor we're
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1 going to use, everybody uses," et cetera, you

2 know, so that we walk through this. We don't need

3 -- you know, that's what I'm saying. It seems

4 like we're trying to rush to a conclusion here a

5 little too quick.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Lucas?

7 MR. ADIN: Well, that certainly was not

8 the intent. It wasn't my intent. I can't speak

9 for anyone else.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: In my view, we're not

11 rushing to a conclusion at this point.

12 MR. ADIN: No. We have been very --

13 MR. POWERS: We will.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: No, no, no. We're not.

15 MR. ADIN: No, no, no. I'm --

16 MR. BROOKMAN: What I would like to do

17 is get a general sense. And I am not going to ask

18 for a vote. I would like to get a general sense.

19 And I am going to scan across the members here on

20 whether people are comfortable thinking that we're

21 heading in the right direction here, noting that

22 more work needs to be done, examples need to be
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1 done, maybe we need a webinar. I think it is

2 instructive for the analysts to have that bit of

3 confirmation, noting that each member here could

4 raise additional thoughts, objections, concerns at

5 our next meeting. And we may end up going in a

6 different direction.

7 Dan?

8 MR. DELANEY: I agree that, you know, as

9 you brought up at the very beginning, for us to

10 bring out very specific concerns on here, I agree

11 with Chuck. I am a little uneasy about giving,

12 you know, a vote, whether preliminary or whether

13 it's non-preliminary or whatever, capturing our

14 concerns against this I think is very important.

15 For the motor industry, certainly introducing a

16 motor part load loss curve that's never been done

17 before in our industry and putting it forward here

18 without, really, review, that's a major concern.

19 That's something certainly we want our industry to

20 get feedback on, one that doesn't exist, so

21 definitely major. I'm okay with proceeding,

22 obviously defining some of these discussions about
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1 it.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: That's good. And that's

3 the kind of substantive comment that I think is

4 very useful.

5 Lucas?

6 MR. ADIN: I mean, I don't know if this

7 helps clarify, you know, with respect to your

8 concerns, I mean, I have similar concerns about

9 making a vote today on this.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

11 MR. ADIN: And what this seems like to

12 me is more just a commitment to do more specific

13 review of this particular proposal. It's not

14 we're saying we're heading down this path, this is

15 what we want to do. And, you know, it's as good

16 as a vote. And we would only vote to undo it

17 later. That is not the way that I understand it.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.

19 MR. ADIN: I think it's more just we

20 want to look at this more closely.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: So it seems as though

22 enough individuals in the room, enough members,
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1 have reservations about this signal that we

2 probably shouldn't do it.

3 MS. WIDDER: Yes. No. I just want to

4 clarify that maybe I was the one that gave people

5 the undue sense that I want to vote on this. I

6 don't want to vote on this. I just want every

7 member to feel welcome to share their reservations

8 because that's what helps us move forward. So

9 that's really what I wanted to encourage.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: You shouldn't take

11 responsibility. I should take at least as much.

12 Meg, do you want to comment here?

13 MS. WALTNER: Yes. And I am sort of

14 agnostic as to whether we vote or not, but just

15 one suggestion is if we did want to take a vote,

16 we could vote on directing, you know, Sarah, what

17 we want her to continue doing on this path, not,

18 you know, we are agreeing to this metric but just

19 --

20 MS. WIDDER: Right.

21 MS. WALTNER: -- we all want Sarah to --

22 MS. WIDDER: Add to this list.
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1 MS. WALTNER: -- be working on this path

2 and add to this list --

3 MR. BROOKMAN: That's good.

4 MS. WALTNER: -- between now and the

5 next meeting.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: That's good, Meg. That's

7 a good idea. Okay.

8 I am intuiting that we are kind of half

9 and half-ish on this point, but I would say the

10 conversation that has preceded this last bit of

11 back and forth was surrounding the manufacturing

12 caucus generally thinking this construct was good

13 and noting also that more time, more

14 investigation, more scenarios, more scrutiny was

15 absolutely necessary before our several members

16 felt comfortable voting. So maybe we will just

17 note that as a record of what we have accomplished

18 in this last discussion.

19 Now we have heard from Dan a specific

20 reservation or concern that he has about the way

21 this might be applied. Maybe we can hear any

22 additional thoughts along those lines and also
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1 instructions or additional things that Sarah or

2 other members of the analytic team should be

3 doing. Any additional specific thoughts? Dan?

4 MR. DELANEY: Yes. Dan Delaney, Regal.

5 I thought I heard from pump manufacturers also

6 marking. Would that also have been a concern? Is

7 that part of labeling logistics?

8 MS. WIDDER: Marking?

9 MR. DELANEY: Yes, the actual -- what

10 gets put on on PER levels.

11 MS. WIDDER: Yes. That was --

12 MR. DELANEY: Is that part of your

13 labeling logistics?

14 MS. WIDDER: That was part of my

15 labeling logistics.

16 MR. DELANEY: Okay.

17 MS. WIDDER: I can also include the word

18 "marking" if that's more clear.

19 MR. DELANEY: Yes. Okay. Just wanted

20 to clarify.

21 MR. POWERS: Chuck. I have a question,

22 and I guess Charlie and Greg if you guys could
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1 listen. How should I -- let me back up. So let

2 me ask you a question, you guys with the team. Dan

3 did a nice job yesterday walking us through the

4 fallout pumps or the failed pumps, et cetera;

5 right? And he gave percentages and stuff; right?

6 And that was based on some formulas that we have

7 already started.

8 And I agree, you know, we are going in

9 the right direction here. And I am not upset over

10 the data. It's just I have some reservations

11 where it goes.

12 But before, Charlie, like you and I and

13 Al and the teams actually sit down and say, "How

14 does this impact our pumps?"; right, "Which ones

15 will we have to redesign?" don't we need to say to

16 ourselves as a group that it looks like we're

17 leaning towards -- we have the formula, you know,

18 fairly well-defined, okay to a certain point. We

19 have to look at it. We have to define which level

20 we're going to go to so we know the impact of

21 that.

22 In other words, if it's a PER-40 versus
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1 a PER-10, you know, I mean, right now we're

2 throwing, you know, an overall understanding it's

3 going to be this much up to this much, you know,

4 if we get up to 100 million or whatever down to

5 whatever, but shouldn't we walk away from here

6 saying we think we're going to lean towards X so

7 then we can recognize the impact more?

8 Because here is my point. If the

9 formula is okay as it is and that's fine and it's

10 only going to impact a few pumps and the dollars

11 are X, then great, but if the impact is going to

12 be greater than that, you know, then -- you know

13 what I'm saying?

14 Am I thinking about it wrong, Charlie or

15 Greg? I'm just trying to --

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg Case?

17 MR. CASE: I was just doodling here

18 before Chuck's question. One of the things that I

19 think may help Chuck be a little more at ease with

20 this -- and you were asking for things maybe that

21 the analytic team can do. If we could do a -- and

22 I kind of doodled a quick little curve here. If
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1 we could draw a slice of the pump market or of the

2 3-D surface with all of the pump points on it, if

3 we could draw a curve where the MEI would fall,

4 the MEI curve would fall, and the new PER curve

5 would fall for whatever the same dropout level is,

6 then we might be able to see, you know, what the

7 differences might be. So there might be two

8 curves there that we could look at and see, you

9 know, what is our difference here.

10 And they are going to be the same

11 surface. So I am having some trouble here in my

12 head, but --

13 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. So, I mean, this is

14 Alison. So we have actually calculated C-values

15 for both MEI and PER. So you could compare. But,

16 I mean, we could give you the MEI ones also. And

17 you can compare them.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Based on this latest

19 construct.

20 MS. WILLIAMS: So what I want to point

21 out, actually, is that in this construct, this

22 denominator is what Dan and I have been using as
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1 the standard in our analyses so far. So this

2 doesn't change anything that Dan and I have

3 reported on because these are just indices related

4 to the same denominator that we were reviewing at

5 the end of the last meeting.

6 So, you know, obviously the assumptions

7 that we have talked about today have changed, but

8 this does not change anything that Dan and I have

9 done. So the C-values that we have calculated

10 still apply to this because the denominator is the

11 standard. These two are just labeled indices

12 relating to the standard in this construct.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: I'm not sure. I don't

14 understand how that answers Greg's question.

15 MS. WILLIAMS: So we, so Dan and I,

16 already have calculated C-values, which is what

17 sets the level of the surface. So we have those

18 data already.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Katie?

20 MS. COUGHLIN: This is Katie from LBL.

21 As part of the LCC presentation, I will be showing

22 what we call a cost curve, which is essentially
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1 the pump cost versus C-value, which may address

2 some of what you're talking about. So it's not 3-

3 D. We kind of sectioned out the market into bins.

4 But maybe after we have seen that, we can revisit

5 this issue about whether types of presentation of

6 the data would be useful.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck, I would make the

8 general comment that I sure can understand your

9 wanting to know more about a sense of direction,

10 but there is a whole lot of analysis yet to be

11 done and thought process and consideration by this

12 Working Group before you are headed towards

13 assigning that value, values, plural.

14 Charlie? Dan? Yes? Go ahead, Dan,

15 please.

16 MR. CAPPELLINO: Well, while he's

17 working up there, so I agree, Chuck. I mean, you

18 asked me the question, Greg. And I think we need

19 to go through more of the discussion here, get

20 more of the economic modeling before somebody like

21 yourself could sit down and go through that. So I

22 think a little bit of patience here and let kind
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1 of the group kind of work through some of the open

2 issues around some economic discussions we had

3 just earlier today. I don't know if that helps

4 you feel better, but --

5 MR. POWERS: It does. And I'm trying to

6 get my head about this, but I also want to be

7 clear. I agree with what Sarah has shown and what

8 Al is trying to say. I am agreeing with the

9 concept.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Gotcha.

11 MR. POWERS: I'm not saying --

12 MR. BROOKMAN: No.

13 MR. POWERS: -- I have a problem with

14 that.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: We hear that. We hear

16 that.

17 MR. POWERS: I am just trying to -- I

18 hate to say it -- put what a university might

19 think versus the real world. I want to

20 understand, like Charlie is saying, what is the

21 real impact, not a theoretical but the real impact

22 to products.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Gotcha. We're with you.

2 We understand. And I think all members want to

3 see that, I believe.

4 MR. POWERS: Yes. Okay.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Dan?

6 MR. POWERS: One last thing. And what

7 Katie brought up is great, but yesterday they

8 showed costs. They showed what we think we can

9 raise in market. And none of that is holding

10 water with us.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Right.

12 MR. POWERS: We're struggling with that.

13 So the lifecycle I get, but that may not add value

14 to what we're trying to address here on --

15 forgetting about costs and the pricing and all of

16 that, how many pumps are going to fail and how

17 many are we going to design and what is the

18 impact.

19 MR. ADIN: Right. Understood. And we

20 still have those issues on our agenda to discuss

21 today. So in the remaining time we have, we're

22 going to try and address as much of those as we
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1 can, understanding that you still need to, you

2 know, take all of this back with you and look it

3 over more closely and provide us with feedback.

4 So, you know, my expectation is that we're going

5 to go through the rest of the LCC that we started

6 the other day and then reserve some time to talk

7 through whatever issues in the materials we

8 presented yesterday we want to revisit.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: And I want to head in

10 that direction quite quickly. I really do.

11 Dan first.

12 MR. WEINTRAUB: Thank you.

13 So I wanted to address Greg's comment

14 because you were looking for us to help you

15 understand the difference between the original MEI

16 and what we are presenting now, so how the pumps

17 will fall out differently. So we know overall

18 you're going to have the same percentage of pumps.

19 And what we can show you so -- you're

20 saying you're not sure -- the surface is the same.

21 So you're not sure how things will change. What

22 we can give you is since we have C-values, failing
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1 C-values under MEI, failing C-values under the PER

2 or wherever we're calling new metric, we can give

3 you two plots. So the lines will be at a given

4 level. And the dots will actually be different

5 because each pump has a different C-value under

6 each one. So that will give you a little bit of a

7 view, but it won't give you that much.

8 What we can give you is that each level

9 I can tell you -- you always know that you are

10 going to fail ten percent, 40 percent, and so on.

11 I can tell you how many pumps switch sides. So

12 you knew that -- you know, if there were one

13 percent was failing and now it's passing, one

14 percent was passing, now it's failing, we can give

15 you that breakdown. And we can do it fairly

16 quickly. So we can have that before the next

17 meeting.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: How are you going to do

19 that?

20 MR. WEINTRAUB: Math. We've got it. We

21 have done the analysis under MEI.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.
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1 MR. WEINTRAUB: We know of the

2 population. We have the data of half of the pumps

3 in the population. And we know how every single

4 pump performs, like how it will --

5 MR. BROOKMAN: I just want to be clear

6 --

7 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yes.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: -- about how that might

9 get done because these guys want it.

10 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yes.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Dan?

12 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yes. So --

13 MR. DELANEY: So Dan Delaney, Regal.

14 Just to Chuck's point, you know, when we talk

15 about, we go back, looking at how motors began

16 this, back in the early '90s in a regulation and

17 then how the Europeans finally got their

18 regulation, it was very helpful. It took us 15

19 years or more to get us to a common understanding.

20 We're not 100 percent there but very close. So I

21 would encourage that, you know, MEI versus PER,

22 that approach, that difference, that very slight
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1 difference, between, you know, the weighted and

2 the lowest denominator, whatever, of the average.

3 That concept I think is very important. This is

4 your only chance to really effect it now.

5 I think you should include -- I don't

6 know if that's part of your metric nomenclature

7 just to capture that as an item here, but MEI

8 versus PER. I think that's a very valuable point

9 you guys should definitely look at, decide can you

10 live with MEI in the same calculation method, --

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Let's --

12 MR. DELANEY: -- a huge help going

13 forward.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's hear other items.

15 Rob, please go to the microphone. Other items

16 that you would request from the analytic team that

17 they create either scenarios or application

18 examples or whatever, whatever you'd like to ask

19 them to create? Rob?

20 MR. BOTELER: Yes. Having gone through

21 this a time or two myself, one thing that you

22 probably want to add up here under labeling is you
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1 are going to have to have a definition of a basic

2 model. And I think the pump guys need to

3 understand what that is. Is it the wet end? Is

4 it the wet end with the motor? Is it the wet end

5 with the motor with the control? So do we end up

6 with three different basic models for each wet

7 end? Don't know.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: State them again. The

9 three are what?

10 MR. BOTELER: Well, the three

11 definitions we have of a pump.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. The three

13 definitions. Right. Got it. Okay.

14 MR. BOTELER: And then the other thing -

15 - and I asked Sarah this at one of the last

16 meetings. And I am going to come back and ask it

17 again. Under our testing and calculation options,

18 we have got to remember we have compliance

19 testing, where we are going to supply all of the

20 data on the DOE website by basic model. And then

21 we also have enforcement testing. And when I

22 asked that question last time, your comment was
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1 that the calculated test method could be used in

2 either case. And then we also have a wire to

3 water test.

4 So I think we need to -- when we talk

5 about our testing, we need to just make sure that

6 we're talking about both so that we don't find

7 ourselves after the fact with two different test

8 protocols for the pump manufacturers.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Let me note for

10 the record that Sarah is capturing these

11 additions, these items to discuss in the next

12 meeting and/or a prospective webinar. So we've

13 got them captured here on the screen.

14 Additional thoughts about this? Yes,

15 please, Greg?

16 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg Towsley, Grundfos.

17 Just as a clarifying question, I heard Dan mention

18 something earlier about partial load motor

19 efficiencies. I have been on an understanding

20 there is no partial load in the formula for the

21 motor side. It's only one efficiency point.

22 MS. WIDDER: So the way in our
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1 calculation method that we were presenting earlier

2 -- let me go up to it. Here the -- I wonder if I

3 have the full load losses. Yes. Okay. So here

4 is a little summary of how we were maybe thinking

5 about from a calculation perspective using one

6 full load efficiency value and then applying a

7 default curve here, this cubic polynomial that we

8 have come up with to adjust those losses to

9 different loading of the motor. We can talk about

10 in detail at a different time probably how this

11 really works, plays out in real life.

12 There is an alternative in the future

13 once such test methods and maybe part load data is

14 more widely available that, instead of applying

15 this default calculation with a singular full load

16 efficiency, those unique part load efficiency

17 values would be available from the motor

18 manufacturer and/or could be tested separately.

19 And so there could be a way where you have tested

20 motor data and tested pump data that combine at

21 each load point, but in absence of that today,

22 we're just going forward with the full load motor
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1 efficiency, which is what is more widely available

2 in the calculation approach. To acknowledge Dan's

3 comment, there is a lot of work going on about

4 part load testing of motors. And so this approach

5 actually leaves open that you could use tested

6 motor data, as opposed to the default curve, if

7 you wanted.

8 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg Towsley, Grundfos.

9 But this is not in the recent PER calculator that

10 was sent or it is?

11 MS. WIDDER: The PER calculator that was

12 sent assumes the calculation.

13 MR. TOWSLEY: Okay.

14 MS. WIDDER: Yes. I will have another

15 comment for you about that later.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Assumes what calculation?

17 MS. WIDDER: It assumes the default

18 motor loss curve. It assumes that -- go ahead.

19 MR. ADIN: It doesn't perform the

20 calculation. It just uses the values that would

21 be the output of this calculation. Is that what

22 you're saying, Sarah, for the losses, the values
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1 that are built into the calculator, or is it

2 performing this calculation?

3 MS. WIDDER: It is performing this

4 calculation.

5 MR. ADIN: Okay.

6 MS. WIDDER: And so what the calculator

7 can do now is essentially it can do the top row

8 here, where you have put in your bare pump values.

9 You can put in an increased motor efficiency and

10 account for that. And you can also acknowledge

11 which control option you have. And it will

12 account for that. And so that's what the

13 calculator captures, is this top row, at this

14 time.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Joanna?

16 MS. MAUER: I just wanted to perhaps add

17 one additional item to the list of kind of topics

18 for future discussion. So I think for a DOE

19 standard, this kind of weighted average approach

20 makes a lot of sense. If we think ahead to

21 utility programs, which I think we all have an

22 interest in having utility programs, be successful
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1 and encouraging sales of high-efficiency pumps and

2 pumps with controls, it may be helpful to have not

3 just the PER value of the pump but some additional

4 information as well; for example, what the input

5 power is at each of the load points that goes into

6 the PER calculation.

7 So I'm wondering if maybe as part of

8 kind of our discussions whether that can -- you

9 know, we can also agree on perhaps specific values

10 that may be reported in the DOE certification

11 database that aren't, you know, part of the

12 standard.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas Adin?

14 MR. ADIN: We normally only require

15 reporting of values that are subject to a

16 standard. So whatever the efficiency standard is,

17 that's the value that we would require to be

18 reported.

19 MS. MAUER: Are you saying that that's

20 the only information that you can require to be

21 reported or that's the practice?

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Betsy Kohl?
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1 MS. KOHL: I mean, typically the

2 certification database is for showing compliance

3 with our standards. So the only thing we care

4 about in there is that you put in a value that

5 shows you meet the standard. That's why I think

6 we were talking about putting these other things

7 on a label or some other way because, I mean, it's

8 sort of not part of the purpose of this database.

9 So that's why we didn't require it to be reported

10 per your label.

11 MR. ADIN: I think we could take a look

12 at that and see what we could do. Certainly

13 something required to be on the label, I think --

14 MS. KOHL: Yes.

15 MR. ADIN: -- would be reportable.

16 MS. KOHL: I mean, CCMS is for standards

17 compliance.

18 MR. ADIN: Generally.

19 MS. KOHL: So maybe look at it.

20 MS. WIDDER: Right. And to add to that

21 a little bit, I think if we're looking at it just

22 because there are other instances in CCMS where
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1 you report variables that help you calculate the

2 standard. So, for example, volume of commercial

3 refrigeration equipment is reported because that

4 helps you understand that you're meeting the

5 standard. And so this is a variable that, you

6 know, those three could be maybe thought about in

7 the same way.

8 MS. MAUER: And if I could just add on

9 quickly? I think a lot of the value in this

10 metric that we're talking about is not so much the

11 standard itself but other things that can be done,

12 like utility programs, to encourage sales of these

13 high-efficiency products. And I think we want to

14 kind of leverage what we're doing here. And, you

15 know, I think a label may be a good component, but

16 I think that having something in a database

17 somewhere that programs can access, I think would

18 have a lot of value.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary Fernstrom?

20 MR. FERNSTROM: So this is Gary. And

21 I'm directing my comments to my friends at DOE.

22 Certainly you may only need in your database what
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1 is required to determine compliance, but a lot of

2 the rest of us, the utilities, operate these

3 programs where we would like to know what the part

4 load performance is at specific points other than

5 one aggregate number so that we can evaluate the

6 performance under different conditions.

7 MS. KOHL: So this is Betsy Kohl, DOE.

8 We are talking a little bit about whether these

9 part load values may somehow feed into the overall

10 standard, but, I mean, the CCMS database is not a

11 wish list of information that people may want. It

12 has to be somehow related to our program. So

13 that's kind of -- and, you know, the labeling may

14 be some other way for you to get that information,

15 but we're still looking into the issue that --

16 MR. FERNSTROM: Well, the point I am

17 trying to make is there is some potential value to

18 the public and the utilities that are operating

19 these energy efficiency programs if you can

20 accommodate our wishes. And you may deem it not

21 to be a wish list, but I think the Department of

22 Energy ought to recognize this potential value if
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1 it saves energy.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you, Gary.

3 MR. ADIN: Just to respond --

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas?

5 MR. ADIN: -- very quickly from the

6 program's perspective, that is something we are

7 happy to consider. I mean, I can tell you right

8 now we would definitely be willing to. You know,

9 we're not voting today. So we don't have to do

10 that. But we'll think about it.

11 MR. FERNSTROM: And one other point,

12 Lucas, yes, this information might equally well be

13 on a label, but if it's reported to the Department

14 of Energy, it carries some credibility that it may

15 not carry if it is simply stated by the

16 manufacturer.

17 MS. KOHL: So just to respond to that --

18 this is Betsy Kohl, DOE -- if anything is reported

19 on a label, it uses our test method. So it is

20 sanctioned by the Department. And we enforce

21 efficiency standards. Right? So there has to be

22 some nexus with the information that we collect
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1 that's related to that. We can't just -- anyway,

2 I have nothing else to say on that.

3 MR. FERNSTROM: Well, maybe I

4 misunderstood. You're suggesting that what would

5 be reported on the label would also need to be

6 accurate, as the Department would require that.

7 That's fine. Then if it's on the label, it's

8 equally as useful to us.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Thank you.

10 Rob?

11 MR. BOTELER: Yes. Gary, this is Rob

12 Boteler. You are exactly right. With NEMA

13 premium, we bumped the level above the DOE

14 requirement, but we were still held accountable

15 for the accuracy of the numbers based on the DOE

16 test method and everything else.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: So that is a reflection

18 of where we want to go with discussions of test

19 procedures as we proceed here. Dan?

20 MR. DELANEY: Dan Delaney, Regal. I

21 just want to make sure that bullet is very clear.

22 I am really after not so much motor and drive loss
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1 as really about the part load loss factor; right,

2 in the equation and the manner in which it is

3 used. Just be very specific about that.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Since I'm going to

5 need to write a meeting summary on this convoluted

6 subject, I'm going to read the items that Sarah

7 has recorded labeled "Items to Discuss at the Next

8 Meeting Webinar." And they are "Metric

9 nomenclature. Comparison of MEI and PER. Impact

10 of test procedure and metric on standard.

11 Definition of basic model. Examples for different

12 pump configurations. Implementation of PERCL and

13 PERVL with the sub elements. Labeling/marketing

14 logistics. Additional reported information or

15 label information. Who is the manufacturer?

16 Market impacts, especially application to utility

17 programs" and then as a separate bullet "Motor and

18 driver part load loss factor testing versus

19 calculation options. Testing burden.

20 Certification and enforcement issues." Are there

21 more?

22 MS. WIDDER: That's all we've got so
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1 far.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: That's a great list.

3 Additions to this list? Because we're about to

4 move on. Yes, Louis?

5 MR. STARR: So just on the

6 labeling/marketing logistics, I would say in the

7 sales channels. So maybe that's understood.

8 MS. WIDDER: I'll add it so it's clear.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.

10 Yes, Bob?

11 MR. BARBOUR: Sarah, are we going to get

12 a new, updated spreadsheet?

13 MS. WIDDER: Yes, you will get a new PER

14 calculator. And, just to be clear -- and

15 hopefully everyone -- this is where I was hoping

16 to get today. I'm going to send out a new

17 calculator reflective of these two indices that

18 are presented on this slide.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Sarah, it seems as though

20 your thought process and the discussion we have

21 had this morning, which has kind of generally

22 provided comfort surrounding where we have landed
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1 with this metric construct -- does that mean that

2 you are kind of prepared to go rapidly towards

3 answering these questions?

4 MS. WIDDER: Yes.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. So I am going to

6 back to what Arnie said earlier. Should we try

7 and schedule a webinar in two weeks or so where

8 anyone who wishes to participate can listen in and

9 look at examples and ask additional questions

10 based on what Sarah is going to try and respond to

11 here? Should we try and do that or should we --

12 MR. BARBOUR: Don't we have one already

13 on the --

14 MR. BROOKMAN: That's not until --

15 MR. BARBOUR: Two weeks.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: That's two weeks.

17 MS. WIDDER: It's May 14th.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. We do. But okay.

19 We've got one scheduled. I guess this would be

20 the topic for that.

21 MS. WIDDER: I just want to be clear.

22 That's scheduled for one hour. And initially I
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1 think we were talking about holding that webinar

2 to discuss updated standards analyses.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Right.

4 MS. WIDDER: And we can do either but

5 probably not both.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Ah.

7 MR. ADIN: We would have to make it

8 longer, at least twice as long, to do both of

9 these topics.

10 MS. WIDDER: Probably more.

11 MR. ADIN: Probably more. So we could

12 do it. I mean, if it would work out better for

13 everyone to do just one long webinar, as opposed

14 to two shorter ones, then I think it would work

15 out better for us, too, logistically, but --

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Should we do a two-hour

17 webinar?

18 MR. ADIN: Yes.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: So this would be May

20 14th. And I'm glad -- Bob, in my head, I had

21 moved it to June. So that would be May 14th. And

22 it would be from 1:00 to 3:00. And Sarah and DOE
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1 will be supplying an agenda for that webinar and a

2 notice surrounding it.

3 Louis?

4 MR. STARR: I was saying maybe we could

5 start with the metric since it will probably be

6 the least contentious, I hope, rather than the

7 other one.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

9 MS. WIDDER: Oh, do the standard second?

10 MR. STARR: Right.

11 MS. WIDDER: Okay. Yes.

12 MR. STARR: I would think.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. That makes --

14 MS. WIDDER: I'm with Louis on that.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. So, barring any

16 major objections, that's the way we're going to do

17 it.

18 And let me ask you. Comment?

19 MS. WIDDER: Otherwise, we'll never get

20 there.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: No? And let me ask you.

22 I presume this webinar is open to all that wish to
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1 listen in. Yes? Just to confirm, the sense of

2 the Working Group that that is the case? We're

3 not deciding anything; right? This is an

4 information exchange. Okay?

5 (No response.)

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Great. The LCC

7 segment that we wish -- that I had intended for us

8 to do next takes about an hour. We have been

9 working at this steadily for a while now. I'm

10 thinking maybe we should take an early lunch

11 because when we return from lunch, we're only

12 working today until 3:00. Okay?

13 But I want to memorialize the progress

14 that has been made this morning. We have made a

15 breakthrough on the metrics segment. And I want

16 to thank the analytic staff. They did some very

17 good work while we were delayed this morning in

18 our start, working with the two major caucuses to

19 clarify how these pieces can come together. And I

20 really think, as I've said, we've made a

21 breakthrough in our understanding and gained a lot

22 of clarity here.
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1 So it's now 11:40. Let's break for

2 lunch. We'll resume at 12:40 here in this room.

3 And thank you. We had a really good morning. See

4 you back here at 12:40.

5 (Off the record.)

6 (On the record.)

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Let's resume. This

8 morning when we held our informal off-the- record

9 meeting, I committed that I would put some of this

10 into the record. These notes that you see here up

11 on the screen are what Jeremiah, who is a very

12 good keyboard person, captured in that informal

13 meeting. So I will get this printed off. And in

14 my meeting summary, I will create a more complete

15 record.

16 But, basically, I am just going to

17 summarize a few items right here right now, which

18 are that I consulted briefly with Betsy to make

19 sure we could have an informal discussion on

20 process items only; that is, timeline and meeting

21 schedule, and that we considered additional times

22 for this meeting, for this group, for this Working
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1 Group, to meet. And we talked about the timeline

2 for rulemaking and whether the time that we have

3 is sufficient. A few individuals offered their

4 thoughts on how we would meet and when we would

5 meet. A few individuals talked about room

6 availability. We talked about some of the

7 additional burdens to meet as a result of

8 additional meetings. And we established some

9 dates, which I already read into the record first

10 thing this morning.

11 So I will make a more complete record of

12 this. I want to make sure all that we do here is

13 complete and according to Hoyle.

14 Now I hope you had a nice lunch. Let's

15 return to what we had started off thinking we

16 would do when the time was right, which is now,

17 Katie, to talk about lifecycle costs.

18 MS. COUGHLIN: So we are going to pick

19 up where we left off yesterday. Let me just very

20 briefly recap from the energy use. So the energy

21 use, the LCC, and the engineering are all very

22 closely coupled. So what I want to do today is
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1 mostly try to convey those interactions and then

2 some of the detail of how we do the calculation.

3 Given the number of issues that have been raised

4 about the engineering and what will actually

5 happen to the market under a standard, I think

6 that it's best to look at the LCC results that I

7 am going to present as a scenario analysis, rather

8 than some prediction of what the actual cost9 benefit will be. And so we can consider over the

10 next couple of months a variety of scenarios about

11 how the market might transform. And any of those

12 could be used to inform this discussion.

13 So, just very briefly, from the energy

14 use calculation, we are developing distributions

15 of duty points; load profile shapes; and annual

16 hours of operation; and, finally, this BEP offset

17 that we used to represent the difference between

18 the duty point and the BEP for the pump. All of

19 these are going to then be imported into the LCC.

20 And we develop a very large LCC sample around

21 these different distributions.

22 And this lifecycle cost is then -- it is
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1 generally one of the factors that is used to make

2 the decision about the standard level with --

3 typically, the criteria are that you really can't

4 pass a standard with a substantial fraction of the

5 users who have negative LCC savings. Beyond that,

6 there's no hard and fast rule about what LCC has

7 to be or can't be.

8 So overall the purpose here, then, is to

9 assess the impacts to the consumer -- I am calling

10 them pump users in this presentation -- of the

11 change in both the purchase price and the

12 operating cost of the unit. And so it's

13 conceptually not a complicated thing. The LCC is

14 the sum of the total installed cost plus the sum

15 of the annual operating costs over the lifetime of

16 the pump applying a discount rate, a sort of real

17 discount rate, which represents the actual cost of

18 alternative investments, with the actual return on

19 alternative investments.

20 We do this Monte Carlo approach, which

21 really just means that for many of these

22 variables, some of which I have already listed, we
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1 use a sampling from a distribution. And then we

2 pick some number, some large number, for the total

3 sample that is just meant to be large enough to

4 represent all the variability that might be in

5 these various quantities. So we typically use

6 10,000 LCC -- 10,000 individual LCC calculations.

7 This overview is -- let's see. Well,

8 I'll go through this quickly. This is more, you

9 know, when you review things, you can use this as

10 a guide to where things come in. So we have over

11 on the far left -- okay. So we start with the

12 engineering analysis over in the upper left. And

13 then we have the markups analysis, which I

14 mentioned yesterday. Those two go into

15 essentially determining the customer price. And

16 we add installation costs. And that defines the

17 total installed cost. Installation costs are only

18 relevant if they depend on the standard level,

19 which they don't in this case or that's what we're

20 assuming.

21 Down on the bottom row, we start with

22 the energy use calculation that gives us the
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1 energy consumption. Then we have electricity

2 prices. That goes into an annual energy cost.

3 Then we have repair and maintenance. That goes

4 into the annual operating cost. Then we add the

5 lifetime, a discount rate, and a trend on

6 electricity prices over the lifetime of the unit.

7 We get up with the lifetime operating cost.

8 So the total installed cost generally

9 goes up. Lifetime operating cost goes down. The

10 sum of the two is either positive or negative. And

11 that's essentially all we really care about at the

12 end of the day. And that's how we defined the

13 lifecycle cost.

14 So the additional inputs that I am going

15 to discuss today are the -- well, repair and

16 maintenance again, they only really matter if

17 they're different between different standard

18 levels and we're assuming that they aren't. So we

19 really aren't counting them at the moment. So the

20 lifetime discount rates, electricity price trend

21 are the additional inputs that we haven't

22 discussed yet.
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1 So the mechanics of the LCC again are to

2 create the sample of 10,000 what I call pump

3 installations. So the installation is the

4 combination of a user and a pump. So there's user

5 data that does not change under the efficiency

6 level. So, for example, if a pump is operated a

7 certain number of hours per year and you expect it

8 to have a certain lifetime, that's not going to

9 change when we change the standard level.

10 Otherwise you don't have a good comparison.

11 So the user characteristics are selected

12 and then fixed. And then on the pump side, we go

13 through each nominal efficiency level. And if the

14 pump that's chosen in the base case is above the

15 efficiency criterion, then we just leave it alone.

16 Otherwise, if it fails, we have to find a new pump

17 for that user.

18 So right now we're using -- again, this

19 is where the scenario analysis comes in,

20 essentially. So depending on the product and how

21 well you can represent the market, you can have

22 different types of what we call consumer choice
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1 models to understand how when somebody's pump is

2 no longer available for sale, what are they going

3 to do. Currently we take the kind of simplest

4 method of choosing and just say they're going to

5 buy the cheapest thing that's still available to

6 them.

7 And, to add a little bit of variability

8 to that, we defined a ten percent price band

9 around the cheapest pump. And you can just

10 randomly pick something from that.

11 Now, this is something where if there is

12 additional constraint when you're looking, say, at

13 a replacement market and you can't just buy the

14 cheapest thing, you have other things that need to

15 be met, any information that we can gather from

16 you about that could be included in this choice

17 model. But for now, we're just doing something

18 simple.

19 So one of the -- so now I am going to

20 get into things that are really just calculation

21 issues because we have the data that came from the

22 manufacturers, but we need to kind of set things
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1 up so we can go through this calculation method in

2 the way that we normally do because we do LCCs all

3 the time. And they all have to be kind of

4 consistent. So one of the things that we really

5 need to do an LCC is to be able to say, "Okay.

6 This is an equivalent pump under all standard

7 levels." And I need a distribution of

8 efficiencies available so that I can look at what

9 happens at each standard level.

10 So with the data that we have, the way

11 we set this up is to create what we call

12 representative units. I'll show you a picture in

13 a moment. The idea is, rather than consider each

14 individual pump, we just, say, create bins in your

15 space of power and flow. We're defining our duty

16 point here as power and flow. And within a bin,

17 we say, "Just take one pump out of that bin and

18 call that a representative pump."

19 So this is an example of how that works.

20 So we use power on the vertical axis, flow on the

21 horizontal axis. We're using a logarithmic scale

22 to capture the wide range of what is available.
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1 And then these are just the pumps that we have in

2 our current data set plotted at their BEP power

3 and flow. And then the grid is the set of bins

4 that we have defined. And then inside each box,

5 we just look at the kind of shipment weighted

6 average of all the pumps in that box. And we

7 defined that as our representative unit.

8 Yes?

9 MR. FERNSTROM: So, Katie, this is Gary.

10 A quick question. Are you using in these bins,

11 the distribution of available products or are you

12 using some sort of market weighting as there may

13 be many more smaller pumps sold than larger ones?

14 MS. COUGHLIN: We are actually using

15 both. So for the base case, we were defining the

16 average pump using the current shipments. But to

17 understand what might happen at higher standard

18 levels, we're keeping all the models in the

19 analysis, even if they don't currently have any

20 shipments.

21 So within each bin, essentially we start

22 off with, say, eight models. And we weight those
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1 models by the shipments to come up with a bin

2 average flow, bin average power, specific speed.

3 We create pump curves and efficiency curves based

4 on the bin average data. And we leave the C5 values alone. So the C-values are then -- because

6 the C-values are sort of independent of flow and

7 specific speed. So they don't actually care where

8 you are on this plot. And the list of C-values,

9 then, gives us the basis for defining a

10 distribution of efficiencies within that bin.

11 Let's see. And then there's another

12 step. So, then, once you have defined an average

13 pump, you need to create the actual efficiency and

14 price distribution that goes with the distribution

15 of efficiencies. So that's what the next two

16 slides are meant to illustrate.

17 So now I have added -- if you think of

18 the previous plot, I am taking just the flow axis

19 on the horizontal. And now I've put the

20 efficiency, the actual pump efficiency, on the

21 vertical axis because that is the number that goes

22 into the energy use calculation. And those green
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1 stars are pumps. Those two black vertical lines

2 represent the limits of a given bin. And the C3 values, a surface with a constant C-value, is

4 represented here by that green line.

5 So, as we were discussing yesterday, a

6 constant C-value is a sort of equivalent

7 efficiency across a range of sizes. So to create

8 our actual efficiency distribution for this bin

9 average pump, we basically just have to slide

10 those stars onto a vertical line that lines up

11 with the value of the bin average flow.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Why don't you pause there

13 and see if there are any questions at this point?

14 Chuck?

15 MR. POWERS: Yes. Kate, I'd rather go

16 through the whole thing, but I had questions on

17 previous slides.

18 MS. COUGHLIN: Okay.

19 MR. POWERS: I don't know how you want

20 to go about this.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Well, then maybe we

22 should not go --
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1 MS. COUGHLIN: How far back?

2 MR. POWERS: No. I can wait until the

3 end, and we can go back.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Then let's --

5 MR. POWERS: It's up to you all, but I'm

6 taking notes so I can remember which slides.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's proceed, then.

8 Okay.

9 MR. POWERS: You don't have them

10 numbered, but I'm trying to keep -- well, you do

11 have them.

12 MS. COUGHLIN: Okay.

13 MR. POWERS: I didn't see it.

14 MS. COUGHLIN: So, again, if you want to

15 think about -- so we start off with this list of

16 models. In each model, we have flow, head, we

17 have units shipped, we have specific speed, we

18 have a C-value defined for that from that European

19 equation. It's always the same equation. So the

20 C-value itself is a number that is defined for the

21 pump. The question of which C-value defines a

22 standard is not relevant here. We're just talking
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1 about the pumps themselves.

2 So what I want to do here is I want to

3 say, well, I want to treat all the pumps in this

4 bin, which have different flows, different powers.

5 I want to treat them as equivalent to a user. So

6 I have to normalize that variability across power

7 and specific speed and so that I can say, you

8 know, if -- say the pump at the right-hand side of

9 the bin has one efficiency and the pump at the

10 left-hand side of the bin has a different

11 efficiency because they have different flows. And

12 I want to say, what if they were both at the flow

13 point of the weighted average? What would their

14 efficiencies be in that case? And I can do that

15 using the equation that defines MEI, that that

16 surface equation just says, you know, for a given

17 C-value, if you move around to a different flow

18 and specific speed, how does your efficiency

19 change? That is what that equation actually tells

20 you.

21 So I do that here. I use the equation

22 from the EU that we are also adopting. And I just
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1 calculate what the efficiency would be if I moved

2 all those pump flow point, duty points over to the

3 value for my bin average.

4 So that gives me an efficiency. I

5 already know the bin average flow and all the rest

6 of it. And the one other thing I need now is the

7 pump price. And since this is no longer a real

8 pump, I can't use a real price. I use the model

9 price that Dan has developed from the engineering.

10 So now we have a situation where for a

11 given representative flow point, I have now a set

12 of efficiencies that all correspond to that fixed

13 flow point. I have a set of prices that go with

14 those efficiencies. And I can begin to do the

15 analysis, which tells me, you know, suppose I was

16 buying that lowest-efficiency pump and it got

17 kicked out of the market? What would happen? What

18 would be the next pump I would buy? What would

19 its efficiency be?

20 So back again to that. So, essentially,

21 now we're looking at the same setup of an

22 installation as a pump plus a user. But now I
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1 only have -- I have 81 bins in which I have these

2 representative pumps. The data is associated with

3 the pump, and I have the data associated with the

4 user.

5 So to model various bits of the

6 economics, we include in our description of the

7 user the sector, which here is -- we have

8 commercial, industrial, municipal, and

9 agriculture. And we model the application because

10 that affects the hours of use. The sector is the

11 discount rates, cost of capital, that sort of

12 thing depend on the sector. And electricity

13 prices also depend on the sector. So that's why

14 we include those.

15 The rest of these are pretty much we are

16 taking the BEP offset, as I said, from the energy

17 use. There's a load profile. We have the

18 electricity price. We have the discount rate. We

19 have the lifetime. And then we also need to

20 weight. So what fraction of pumps are irrigation

21 pumps that are not well pumps, that sort of thing?

22 What fraction of pumps are used for pressure boost
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1 in the industry?

2 So that weight calculation, I'm not sure

3 we want to go through it in a lot of detail. It's

4 fairly complicated. It's complicated, but it's

5 just accounting. It's really just taking data

6 tables and manipulating them. It's really not

7 something that a lot of people care about.

8 Essentially, we use these three data

9 sources listed on the left that I mentioned for

10 the energy use calculation. We have this motors

11 database, which gives us a sense of within each

12 power range of motors what is the distribution

13 across application and sector. We're using also

14 the ag irrigation data and the PG&E pump test

15 data. To get pump distribution by sector, we have

16 a consultant estimate. And then we're using the

17 manufacturer shipments data to distribute pumps by

18 type, flow, and power.

19 So all of this, we end up being able to

20 say, "Okay. I have specified my sector, my

21 application, my pump type, my pump speed." And I

22 can say, "That's four percent of pumps. This is
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1 eight percent of pumps" and that sort of thing.

2 It's, again, something that you would have to do

3 to complete the calculation. It generally doesn't

4 affect the results that strongly.

5 So a couple of additional assumptions

6 that we have made that we would like feedback on,

7 there is -- this is just a table that shows the

8 crosswalk between sector and application. We're

9 not using all applications in all sectors. So,

10 for example, we're not including irrigation in any

11 sectors except agriculture. I know there's a

12 little bit of turf management that goes on, but it

13 doesn't seem to be an important thing for the

14 overall pump population.

15 And commercial and industrial have

16 pretty much every application except irrigation.

17 And that municipal, we have only cooling water,

18 pressure boost, in this very broad category of

19 other, which is sort of loads which may or may not

20 be easily characterized. And other is really just

21 something where we have no specific load profile

22 for it. So if there is something about this table
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1 that doesn't seem appropriate, then we can again

2 modify it.

3 And then the sectors, we have a variety

4 of ways of estimating sector breakdowns. So I'm

5 just going to show two of them. And, then again,

6 if there is more information that we could get? So

7 our current data estimate based on those 3 data

8 sources gives us this breakdown of 7 percent, 60

9 percent, 30 percent, and 3 percent. This is a

10 pump count, not a connected load.

11 And then our consultant estimate is

12 somewhat different. The major difference is

13 between the balance of commercial/industrial,

14 which is somewhat significant because energy

15 prices in the commercial sector are quite a bit

16 higher than industrial. So if there is some

17 additional information we could use to adjust

18 these, we can take that into account.

19 So, as I said, installation costs and

20 annualized repair and maintenance are in this

21 analysis assumed to be the same at all standard

22 levels. Since the focus of the LCC is the changes
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1 that occur under an efficiency level, we're not

2 including them in the annual operating cost. Now,

3 we can include them. And if there is a reason to

4 believe they would change, we can take that into

5 account.

6 And then the lifetime, in the analysis,

7 we have the lifetime depends on two variables. So

8 we have a lifetime for the pump in total hours of

9 operation, mechanical lifetime. And then we

10 divide that by the hours per year to produce a

11 lifetime in years. And the lifetime in years is

12 what goes into the LCC analysis.

13 So, again, this seems to be a reasonable

14 assumption. And if it's not a reasonable

15 assumption, then we can modify it.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: What's the source for

17 that?

18 MS. COUGHLIN: This comes from our

19 consultant report. So I went through a little bit

20 of that, yes. So I don't know why they are much

21 lower for ESFM. They are much lower. And then we

22 also have a maximum lifetime in years that we
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1 implemented in the LCC that is 25 years for most

2 pumps.

3 MR. POWERS: Alison, I can't remember. A

4 couple of meetings back, what did we end up with

5 as an average? Was it 2,250 a year is the average

6 hour? I forget. Do you remember?

7 MS. WILLIAMS: I don't remember. It

8 differed by product class. And, actually --

9 MS. COUGHLIN: Hours per year is about

10 three to four thousand. Right? I think.

11 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. So when I did the

12 back-of-the-envelope energy savings calculation

13 before, I had some estimated hours of use that

14 they were playing with before.

15 MR. POWERS: Okay. So, in simple terms,

16 it was 2200 a year. You are talking ten years. If

17 it was 4,000, you're talking 7 and a half years.

18 MS. COUGHLIN: Right.

19 MR. POWERS: So that's --

20 MS. COUGHLIN: But I will show you --

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thanks, Chuck.

22 MS. WILLIAMS: We have a distribution.
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1 MS. COUGHLIN: There we go. So this is

2 actually what we end up -- so when you go through

3 the LCC and you look at the output of the LCC and

4 just take all of the lifetimes that are there and

5 do a histogram, this is what we end up with. So

6 we have a very broad distribution. It's somewhat

7 less broad for the ESFM product class, but,

8 essentially, you know, there's some -- so for a

9 10,000 sample, the ESFM has about 20 percent

10 failing after I think 5 years and very, very long

11 tails. So there's a very broad range of lifetimes

12 here. This is all very approximate and --

13 MR. POWERS: Could you go back one

14 slide?

15 MS. COUGHLIN: Sure.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck, use the

17 microphone.

18 MR. POWERS: Sorry.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.

20 MR. POWERS: So this one shows 1,800 rpm

21 -- is that right? -- at 2,200. And two-pole is

22 almost the same, at 2,200. And then you go back
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1 again. Go next slide. Sorry.

2 MS. COUGHLIN: Oh. This is --

3 MR. POWERS: So now you're back at two4 pole here; right?

5 MS. COUGHLIN: That's right.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber?

7 MR. HUBER: I'm a little curious or

8 several of us are curious.

9 MS. COUGHLIN: Sure.

10 MR. HUBER: Why would --

11 MS. COUGHLIN: Where to? Which slide?

12 MR. HUBER: You've got the same number

13 of hours here, but my question was not about this

14 slide. No.

15 MS. COUGHLIN: Okay. Forward?

16 MR. HUBER: Yes.

17 MS. COUGHLIN: This one?

18 MR. HUBER: Why would you see such a

19 variation between frame-mounted and close-coupled

20 end suction?

21 MS. WILLIAMS: I think I'm going to have

22 to go back and double-check our report. Yes. I'll
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1 look into that.

2 MS. COUGHLIN: So this is --

3 MR. HUBER: That doesn't look --

4 MS. COUGHLIN: This is the -- okay. So

5 they are very different here. Right? We've got

6 2,200 versus 1,500 roughly for the frame-mounted

7 versus close-coupled.

8 MR. HUBER: Yes. But why?

9 MS. COUGHLIN: I don't know. This is

10 from our consultant report. So --

11 MS. WILLIAMS: Let me double-check it.

12 And I'll get back to you guys.

13 MS. COUGHLIN: Yes.

14 MS. WILLIAMS: I agree that looks a

15 little weird.

16 MS. COUGHLIN: Yes. I can't validate

17 this data. I don't have the background.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: We'll check on it.

19 MR. POWERS: Yes. And I think, again,

20 just for mechanical, anything running faster has a

21 tendency to have different issues related to life.

22 So, you know, if the number was 22.2 and 20,001,
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1 okay, maybe.

2 MS. COUGHLIN: Right.

3 MR. POWERS: But they're almost

4 identical. And I just have a problem with --

5 MS. COUGHLIN: Right.

6 MR. POWERS: -- speed and --

7 MS. COUGHLIN: I mean, this is an

8 average. And he actually gave us this breakdown

9 by quintiles. And they may be different, slightly

10 different, distributions. But yes, we'll review

11 that. And, like I said, all of these inputs are

12 really coming either from the consultant report or

13 who knows where.

14 MR. POWERS: And, Katie, I think where

15 Al is coming from, to help, just to think this

16 through -- and, again, we all have different

17 designs, but an FM unit if it's bolted and, I mean

18 -- sorry -- the close-coupled, if it's bolted

19 directly to the pump, theoretically speaking, --

20 I'm thinking ahead -- the shaft of the motor and

21 its bearings are carrying the load; right? So to

22 say that that has longer hours, somebody could
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1 say, "Okay. The L/D and the spacing and all of

2 that is shorter." You might argue that it might

3 be okay. We have to look at -- I'm trying to look

4 at it mechanically. And I'm thinking, "How is

5 this thing running? How is it set up?" Something

6 just looks fishy. That --

7 MS. COUGHLIN: I agree with you. I

8 think this is fishy. But yes. So yes. I guess -

9 - yes. It seems a bit -- definitely, it

10 definitely needs some work. So, like I said, this

11 is the scenario, to sort of understand how the two

12 pieces fit together. But we're not -- these LCC

13 results are very, very, very provisional.

14 So are we good on the lifetimes? We can

15 move on.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Keep going.

17 MS. COUGHLIN: So energy prices is one

18 thing where we actually -- we use AEO to project

19 energy prices forward. So this little graph here

20 just shows the year and then an electricity price

21 trend normalized to be one in 2014. And it's

22 about a 25 percent increase over the 60-year
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1 period of the AEO.

2 So our analysis -- essentially, I think

3 the compliance date we're looking at is probably

4 2020 roughly, something like that. So we

5 essentially say, you know, you purchased the pump

6 in the compliance year. So that will be 2020,

7 2019, whatever. And then if the pump lasts 15

8 years, we escalate the operating cost each year

9 according to this price trend.

10 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson. What

11 number of years did you use in this for how long

12 it lasts?

13 MS. COUGHLIN: That's what this -- so we

14 have its distribution of anywhere from 3 or 4

15 years up to -- it goes, actually, up to 25 for

16 ESFM and -- no -- for ESCC and IL, our consultant

17 gave us a cutoff at about 25. And then for ESFM,

18 there's a tail that goes out to 40. This is --

19 again, I mean, this is just a first draft.

20 So, essentially, what this is telling

21 you is that there is, you know, a few percent of

22 purchasers have a four-year, a few percent have
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1 five-year, a few percent have six-year. So it's

2 the whole range is represented.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary Fernstrom?

4 MR. FERNSTROM: So, Katie, this is Gary.

5 Could you go to the next slide, please? I realize

6 you are illustrating someone else's data there,

7 but I'm a little puzzled at the projected

8 reduction between the middle of this decade and

9 next decade.

10 MS. COUGHLIN: I have not dug into AEO

11 2014 enough to know why that is there. Yes, but

12 --

13 MR. FERNSTROM: I know. And I wish I

14 had an extension cord long enough to get at some

15 of that seven and ten-cent per kilowatt hour

16 electric.

17 MS. COUGHLIN: Yes, yes. So we're using

18 national average. So, again, as I mentioned, the

19 industrial price is about 30 percent below

20 commercial. So that makes a difference for the

21 LCC. And we're currently using industrial prices

22 for municipal and agriculture.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: You need that extension

2 cord all the way to Texas, I think.

3 MR. POTTS: I have a question.

4 MS. COUGHLIN: Sure.

5 MR. POTTS: On the previous slide --

6 Doug Potts, American Water. I had a question

7 about how electric price averages are figured.

8 Does it take regional pricing and then it's just

9 an average of all of those? Is there any kind of

10 weighting to sort of --

11 MS. COUGHLIN: Yes.

12 MR. POTTS: -- population density and

13 things like that because I, you know --

14 MS. COUGHLIN: Actually, EIA -- so EIA,

15 the Energy Information Agency, publishes this

16 Annual Energy Outlook each year. And they collect

17 data for all of the retail sellers of electricity

18 in the country. And that data includes a

19 breakdown by sector, commercial, industrial,

20 residential, where they get sales in kilowatt

21 hours, revenues, and number of customers. And

22 then they develop these weighted average prices
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1 based on that data. And that sort of gets us up

2 to 2014. And then they do this projection

3 forward, which has quite a lot of resolution in

4 terms of both spatial resolution and different

5 industries. They do a lot of very detailed

6 modeling.

7 MR. POTTS: Okay. So it sounds like

8 there's a weighting in there kind of as a function

9 of kilowatt hour density in a certain area and

10 things like that.

11 MS. COUGHLIN: I'm guessing that's what

12 they would use, yes.

13 MR. POTTS: Okay. Thanks.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Gary?

15 MR. FERNSTROM: So this is Gary again. I

16 would just like to make the observation that we,

17 as are many utilities, are moving to time-of-use

18 smart rates, which are time and seasonally

19 differentiated. And, again, this is someone

20 else's data, but as we look toward the future, I

21 think we're going to see the preponderance of

22 time-of-use pricing increasing across the country.
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1 So that might encourage us to do a little more

2 sophisticated analysis with respect to when energy

3 is utilized versus what the cost might be at the

4 time of utilization.

5 MS. COUGHLIN: Yes. I think for

6 irrigation, we could include a summer premium

7 because that's mostly a summer load. And I know

8 summer prices are higher. But our assumption

9 again has been for most applications, it's not

10 going to change with season. So we have not

11 included a seasonal impact in most of the

12 applications.

13 MR. FERNSTROM: Well, outside of the

14 agricultural section, the energy use may not

15 change much by season. Certainly it would by time

16 of day. And the pricing I am just noting tends to

17 be moving toward pricing that's seasonally and

18 time-of-day differentiated. Not all utilities are

19 there yet, but the trend is in that direction.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

21 MS. COUGHLIN: Okay. So discount rates

22 are used to determine the present value of the
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1 lifetime operating expenses. We use the weighted

2 average cost of capital methodology, which is --

3 essentially, what this does is say if I have a

4 choice of spending money on a more efficient pump

5 versus buying something else that's useful to me

6 in my business, what is the potential return on

7 that alternative investment? So the weighted

8 average cost of capital combines the financial

9 cost of debt if you have to finance the purchase

10 with debt versus cost of equity.

11 And, again, these are the values that

12 come out of the analysis. They tend to be

13 relatively low for these sectors, and it's lower

14 for municipal because they have access to lower15 cost capital.

16 So this gets into now this concept of

17 the -- how the products are distributed over the

18 market. So we call this the base case efficiency

19 distribution. This represents the current

20 distribution of products by efficiency. And,

21 essentially, we try to use the LCC to sort of

22 represent not just what happens when you buy a
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1 more efficient pump but how many people are

2 actually not impacted at all because they already

3 bought a more efficient pump. So this is why we

4 need this base case distribution.

5 So what we have here is each product

6 class is listed in the rows. And then what these

7 represent is not so much PER-0. This is the

8 cutoff C-value for each of these PERs. So this is

9 the percentage of people that would at PER-0 be

10 between the cutoff, the minimum in the data, and

11 the cutoff between PER-0 and PER-10. So that's

12 the first bin. The next bin is the value for PER13 10 to 25. So 15 percent of people are in that bin

14 and on up. So 15 percent of the market is at PER15 85 for ESCC-1800. NO matter what we do, these

16 people will never be impacted by it. And as you

17 go down those last two columns, that represents

18 the fraction of the market that is already buying

19 things that are more efficient than --

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber?

21 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson. I have

22 a great difficulty believing that 62 percent have
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1 PER-85 for any of them. And I do not understand

2 why you would have a --

3 MS. COUGHLIN: Yes.

4 MR. HUBER: -- difference between 3,600

5 and 1,800 --

6 MS. COUGHLIN: Yes.

7 MR. HUBER: -- end suction. And my

8 guess is -- and I haven't consulted with my

9 colleagues, but my guess is the majority of the

10 percentage should be down to the 10, 25, and it

11 should drop as you move up.

12 MS. COUGHLIN: Yes.

13 MR. HUBER: I mean, if you look at the

14 population of pumps out there, very few are at 85

15 or above.

16 MS. WILLIAMS: So --

17 MR. HUBER: So, therefore, I doubt that

18 we are going to have that in the population.

19 MS. COUGHLIN: This is something that we

20 would review. I think there are some data issues

21 with the unit counts in our table. So we just

22 used -- again, we took the table. We put it
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1 together. This is what you get. This is a useful

2 diagnostic, I think. Yes. This tells us there

3 may be some issues with some of the unit counts.

4 And we would like to review those with you.

5 MR. POWERS: I also think, Katie, that

6 in this slide -- I'm sorry, Alison.

7 MS. WILLIAMS: I just --

8 MR. POWERS: No. Go ahead. Go ahead.

9 I'm sorry.

10 MS. WILLIAMS: So this is from

11 manufacturer data; right? We will double-check

12 it. I did notice this when I made this slide --

13 MS. COUGHLIN: Yes.

14 MS. WILLIAMS: -- and thought that it

15 was crazy and double-checked it. And it looked

16 okay when you average the two speeds for ESCC.

17 It's about 30 percent, which is actually what we

18 expected based on looking at the data overall in

19 the engineering analysis and that kind of thing.

20 So I'm not exactly sure why that is happening, if

21 there is some weird model.

22 MS. COUGHLIN: Yes.
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1 MS. WILLIAMS: But I did do some

2 preliminary checks on it. And we will certainly

3 go back to the original data and see if we can

4 figure out what is driving it. But it does seem

5 to be data from the data.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck Powers?

7 MS. COUGHLIN: Yes.

8 MR. POWERS: Yes. Sorry. So, Katie, I

9 think what you are going to do and go back and

10 look at this and see is good; right?

11 MS. COUGHLIN: Well, we're actually

12 probably going to come back to you and say --

13 MR. POWERS: Okay. So --

14 MS. COUGHLIN: You know, for example, so

15 there's a couple of our bins which have -- you

16 know, there's one bin in one model that has half

17 the shipments. That just doesn't seem right. So

18 we'll try to flag the data issues and then send

19 them back to you for review.

20 MR. POWERS: So some observations, just

21 -- it doesn't seem to make any sense, but, again,

22 I'm no expert until I study your data and
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1 understand the formulas you got to. But, like,

2 when you go from ESCC 18 to 36, you go from 12 to

3 2; -- okay? -- just using one example. The same

4 thing for the frame-mounted, you go the other way,

5 from two to four; right, for the same speed

6 variation. I would think if one were going down

7 the old -- you know what I mean?

8 That's one observation. The second is

9 when you look at the 3,600 to 18 on the row that

10 Al talked about, which was the ESCC, I'm puzzled

11 why there's such a heavy weight on the far end of

12 over 85, the PER-85, and the others are in the 10

13 and 7; whereas, the other one is fairly equally

14 loaded.

15 MS. COUGHLIN: Yes.

16 MR. POWERS: And the reason I ask that

17 is, again, I'm speculating. A lot of the 1,800

18 rpm pumps are also the same ones that could be run

19 at 3,600; right? So you would wonder why. And

20 the efficiency is not going to change much on the

21 speed by definition because of specific speeds

22 with the designs of the pumps.
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1 MS. COUGHLIN: Right.

2 MR. POWERS: So you know what I mean?

3 Observation, it just seemed to be, you know, very

4 --

5 MS. COUGHLIN: Actually, we know.

6 There's one model with -- like I said, for ESCC7 3600, one model has half the shipments according

8 to the data that we received. And we validated

9 that we transcribed it incorrectly. So we need to

10 go back now. Like I said, we're going to circle

11 back to you with these flags and ask for those to

12 get a second look. So yes.

13 So, anyway, I mean, again, for the

14 mechanics of the analysis, you can essentially

15 read off from here what fraction of the market is

16 not going to be affected by the standard. So

17 whatever this table ends up being, that's sort of

18 why it's useful.

19 MS. WALTNER: Quick clarification. So

20 this is shipment?

21 MS. COUGHLIN: These are shipment

22 weights, yes --
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1 MS. WALTNER: Okay.

2 MS. COUGHLIN: -- in the current market

3 data. And, again, you know, we're just assuming

4 that the data that we have is representative of

5 the market as a whole. So we don't worry about

6 extrapolating. And if we need to worry about

7 that, we can review that as well.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: That was Meg Waltner. Now

9 to Chuck.

10 MR. POWERS: And then another thing, I

11 think Dan yesterday did a nice job trying to show

12 us a lot of good data. And he showed -- I'm just

13 speculating here. I think he showed X percent of

14 pumps, Dan, that would be redesigned or removed,

15 dropped out. So if you were to just -- you know,

16 again, observation. If you were to take the first

17 line there and say the 12 percent, 13 percent, 15,

18 to 12 would be removed, going by like Dan's, then

19 that's the 40 percent or something that he was

20 coming up with, or 60, but on some of them, it may

21 not be the same. So I don't know how you weigh

22 these two.
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1 MS. COUGHLIN: This is shipments, not

2 models.

3 MR. POWERS: Yes, yes.

4 MS. COUGHLIN: So that they would not be

5 the same numbers.

6 MR. POWERS: Shipments on products that

7 don't pass the PER.

8 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yes.

9 MS. COUGHLIN: Right.

10 MR. WEINTRAUB: Dan Weintraub, Navigant.

11 Chuck, like she's saying, so when we are talking

12 about pumps failing, we are talking about models,

13 just a model that exists. Just because a model

14 exists doesn't mean it's selling many pumps or it

15 could sell half the pumps in the marketplace if

16 they're a killer. You just don't know.

17 MR. POWERS: But the PER time is --

18 MR. WEINTRAUB: PER, that level, the

19 groupings are based on how many pumps fail. But

20 the shipments are independent of how many fail.

21 MS. COUGHLIN: Right.

22 MR. POWERS: It's just the way the
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1 market works.

2 MS. COUGHLIN: Right. PER is just a

3 number that represents, you know, a cutoff. It

4 affects where we put the bin boundaries but

5 doesn't affect the actual distribution in the

6 data.

7 MS. WILLIAMS: And I'll just kind of

8 clarify two things. One, this is --

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Alison?

10 MS. WILLIAMS: -- a little bit different

11 distribution than what Dan showed. This is not

12 percent failing at each thing exactly. And I also

13 did want to say Dan verified the 62 percent as

14 coming from a single -- what Katie mentioned, the

15 model that has -- or a lot of it is, yes. There

16 is other pumps there, too, but a lot of this is

17 driven by one data point that we verified, came in

18 to us as that. So yes.

19 MS. COUGHLIN: So you'll be hearing from

20 us.

21 (Laughter.)

22 MS. COUGHLIN: Yes. So this is really -
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1 - again, it's the shipments. It's kind of where

2 the current data set shows the actual purchases

3 taking place if you bin these things according to

4 the C-value used to calculate PER. That makes

5 sense.

6 So now we get to results. So --

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Very preliminary results.

8 MS. COUGHLIN: Right. Example results.

9 This is a scenario -- and I'm going to talk in a

10 moment about the cost of the model because that's

11 very confusing I think. So essentially what we

12 have here is the lifecycle cost, the total

13 lifecycle cost for the sample average for each

14 product class as a function of these PER values.

15 So what is happening at each PER is we

16 are getting all of the users who were buying a

17 failing pump and giving them a new pump. And I

18 think the thing that you want to take away from

19 this is, first of all, that the change in

20 lifecycle cost is a small number compared to the

21 lifecycle cost. So we're looking at pretty

22 marginal differences here.
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1 So it is -- you know, in an LCC

2 analysis, if these numbers are very small, they --

3 you know, there is a limit to how much precision

4 we have in the modeling. And so we can all kind

5 of agree that they are unlikely to be ever precise

6 enough to really drive too heavily the decision

7 process.

8 And then, the other thing that we see

9 here is that you just get a steadily increasing --

10 well, you get a steadily decreasing lifecycle cost

11 as you go to higher PER, and I will show you in a

12 moment why that happens.

13 So on this page where I just show the

14 lifecycle cost, we have a range of values from

15 roughly $9 to $12,000. And I move here now to

16 just looking at the lifecycle cost savings, which

17 are the difference at each PER level between the

18 starting value, PER zero, and the average value at

19 that level.

20 These are the savings. So, as I was

21 saying, the savings are not very large numbers.

22 They are positive, and that's a good thing because
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1 the Department likes to see positive numbers. But

2 they are very small.

3 So these numbers are mostly driven by

4 hours of operation and cost of electricity, that

5 kind of thing. These are not likely to change

6 very much.

7 These numbers, on the other hand, can

8 change quite a lot as we make revisions in the

9 analysis.

10 So what I'd like to do now with the next

11 two slides is kind of break out certain pieces of

12 the picture and try to give a more intuitive sense

13 of why things work the way they do. So first of

14 all, as I mentioned, we have this -- in addition

15 to reporting the LCC, we like to do this count of

16 how many people are affected by -- either

17 positively or negatively, by the existence of a

18 standard.

19 So this plot -- we just lumped

20 everything, the whole -- all of the samples

21 together to show all product classes. The blue

22 bars are the no-impact and the current scenario,
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1 which means that their pump choice is not

2 affected. And that is really just a function of

3 the fact that you're defining PER as a fraction of

4 model. So that's obviously going to go down as

5 you raise the PER.

6 And then the green bars represent the

7 proportion of consumers who get a benefit, and the

8 red at the bottom is the proportion of consumers

9 who get negatively impacted, which essentially

10 means that, you know, the hours of operation or

11 whatever are not high enough to justify the

12 increased cost.

13 In this slide, I am taking the LCC --

14 the change in the lifecycle cost and I am breaking

15 it into the two pieces, so the change in the

16 manufacturer price and the change in operating

17 cost. And, again, these two are calculated

18 independently, and they are linked by the

19 existence of a bound on the efficiency in the

20 market.

21 But, again, the benefit side is -- you

22 know, you can think of it as the operating cost
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1 savings are available to finance an improvement in

2 efficiency, if you want to look at it that way.

3 And, again, those are fairly stable because they

4 depend on things that are not part of the

5 engineering, they are not part of the

6 uncertainties about the future.

7 And then, the change in the product

8 price on the bottom is -- well, we'll get to that

9 next. It's unclear at this point whether we --

10 you know, how our product price changes should

11 really be calculated. So I think you can -- and I

12 think this is ESCC-1800. This is the subset

13 there.

14 So this operating cost side gives you a

15 pretty reliable number of the availability of

16 funds to finance efficiency improvements of a few

17 hundred, you know, $1 to $400. That's probably a

18 pretty good range.

19 And then, the question then is, what are

20 the costs really going to be?

21 And, then, my last slide is fairly

22 complicated. So I'll walk you through it. But
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1 we're trying to get here at the cost -- so we have

2 seen the value of efficiency, and now we want to

3 get at the cost of efficiency. And the -- so the

4 data here that are plotted are the model cost, the

5 model price that comes from Dan's analysis, as a

6 function of the C-value of the pump for this

7 normalized set of pumps in the bin, in a

8 particular bin.

9 And then, the markers here are designed

10 to show for each pump at what point it fails and

11 goes out of the population. So the blue boxes are

12 the pumps that are available at PER zero. This is

13 what you start with. And we have a -- we have

14 some premium associated with efficiency. So you

15 go to decreasing C-value. You have an increasing

16 price, but that tails off into -- relatively

17 insensitive to efficiency past about 125.

18 Now, it is not really clear that this is

19 representative of reality, because some of those

20 models out there don't have shipments. So they're

21 in the database as models, but if you were really

22 selling those pumps they may not actually have
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1 those prices. So this is sort of a hybrid of real

2 data and speculation in some sense.

3 So when you go from PER zero to PER-10,

4 we go to the red boxes. So essentially what

5 happens is those two lowest blue boxes, at PER-10

6 those pumps are no longer available. They have

7 failed. And so they have been redesigned, and the

8 redesign point is actually at PER-45. That was

9 the decision that was made about what -- you know,

10 to represent what a pump manufacturer might do.

11 They are not going to redesign to PER-10. They

12 are going to redesign to PER-45.

13 So those two models move out to that red

14 box that is sitting at about $900, and that cost

15 there is then the base price with an increment

16 that was what Dan calculated spread out over the

17 failing models. So, again, it is a sort of

18 scenario where you take your total conversion cost

19 and you distribute it only over those products

20 that are failing.

21 So you get a price increment that puts

22 you above the current market estimate of pumps
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1 that already exist at PER-10.

2 And you go to PER. So we go through

3 this, and then PER-25 is the green boxes, those

4 that come in just below I think 130, and a couple

5 more pumps disappear and move up to the green box

6 at about 900. You go down like that.

7 So as you go to higher PER values, you

8 are creating these new redesigned pumps, which

9 then have to compete with the existing pumps in

10 the database. And I have picked an example where

11 there are -- there is a clear distinction between

12 the two, but in some cases, you know, if you look

13 -- this is just one representative unit. If you

14 look at the -- there are cases where those

15 redesigned costs are actually closer to the

16 current estimated market price.

17 So this curve is a hybrid of what might

18 be happening now and what might happen in the

19 future, and that is kind of the challenge with the

20 engineering is to -- you know, for the purposes of

21 doing the analysis, you need to create a picture

22 of what is the potential market value of
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1 efficiency that balances both the cost of getting

2 those products in the market and the willingness

3 to pay on the side of the consumer.

4 And so we understand that there are

5 problems with the way that we have set it up, and

6 I think we will be iterating to try and produce a

7 curve that represents this sort of amalgamation of

8 the present and the potential future that gives an

9 appropriate premium associated with efficiency.

10 And that is essentially what is going to drive the

11 LCC.

12 But going back here, again, we have a

13 good sense of what the value is associated with

14 efficiency. So we know that as long as the cost

15 comes in under those blue bars we are going to get

16 positive LCC savings. So it is -- generally, you

17 know, it is not a burden on the user population.

18 So even if the cost side is very

19 uncertain, we can sort of characterize the value

20 side, and that gives you a sense of, you know,

21 where -- what kind of target you need to try to

22 hit for the costs, and hopefully will enable the
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1 discussion to proceed in a constructive way.

2 So I guess that's it, and now it's time

3 for questions.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Noting that this is meant

5 to be an overview and we are going to be returning

6 to both the construct and more detailed analysis,

7 so perhaps we can keep these questions at

8 something of a high level, questions and comments

9 here, because I am eager also to get to Dan as

10 well. Yes, Charlie?

11 MR. CAPPELLINO: Charlie Cappellino. So

12 I presume this is a question for Dan, that the

13 analysis here includes the assumption of the 30-

14 year amortization and the, what was it, 60 percent

15 dropout rate. And as that gets refined, it would

16 be rolled back in and --

17 MS. COUGHLIN: Yes.

18 MR. CAPPELLINO: -- recalculated as you

19 better understand --

20 MR. WEINTRAUB: This is Dan.

21 MR. CAPPELLINO: -- our input from

22 yesterday and today?
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1 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yes. The numbers that

2 you gave me, Alison, or the numbers that I gave

3 you, that's what in -- the numbers that were put

4 into that model were similar to what we presented,

5 but they were the previous iteration. So they're

6 not fully up to date because we didn't have time

7 to circle back. But, yes, they are -- when we

8 looked at the markups that we were going to apply

9 to these pumps, they were based off of those

10 conversion costs and then we came up with how much

11 would need to be amortized each year.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's go to Alison.

13 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. I just want to add,

14 the percent dropped that Dan is estimating in his

15 engineering, we don't do that in the LCC. We are

16 redesigning everything, but some of them don't get

17 sold in the LCC because of the product choice

18 model. So that -- like he is dropping a certain

19 number of models. We don't really know which ones

20 they are. So we can't drop them in the LCC

21 explicitly.

22 But they're implicitly -- there is
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1 models implicitly dropped because the price is so

2 high that no one purchases them. It is a sort of

3 nuanced discussion, but the simple answer is that,

4 yes, we are currently using 30-year amortization

5 with a 10 percent discount rate. Any changes to

6 the engineering analysis will be reflected in

7 this.

8 MR. CAPPELLINO: This is Charlie again.

9 So that would change the brown bars on the bottom

10 as far as the costs.

11 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.

12 MR. CAPPELLINO: The blue bars on the

13 top would basically remain the same.

14 MS. WILLIAMS: Unless we make other

15 changes to those.

16 MS. COUGHLIN: The blue bars on the top

17 are affected by one thing, which is, again, we are

18 choosing the cheapest pump with some randomness.

19 And if the cheapest pump -- if there is a very

20 efficient cheap pump available, then you are going

21 to buy that one and get more energy savings.

22 So if we modify that choice criteria,
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1 you might decrease the bars on the top somewhat.

2 MR. CAPPELLINO: All right. Thank you.

3 MR. POWERS: I have a question, too, or

4 just --

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck?

6 MR. POWERS: -- an observation. I

7 think, you know, Dan, in your 30-year deal, is

8 Wall Street two years' payback or shorter? You've

9 got a long way to go? Thirty years isn't going to

10 cut it? Twenty years isn't going to cut it? Ten

11 years isn't going to cut it? I'm just saying from

12 a mathematical -- from the practice, it would be

13 good to see what is a two-year show.

14 MR. WEINTRAUB: So I think --

15 MR. POWERS: I know you don't like that,

16 Alison, but that's the world we're in; right?

17 MR. WEINTRAUB: This is Dan Weintraub.

18 So I think what Katie is trying to get at is that

19 we have to get away from the idea of what's the

20 payback to that, because you can look at on your -

21 - on the INPV to the industry we can look at how

22 you guys are going to fare with what you could
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1 actually get in the market.

2 What Katie is trying to get at is that

3 she needs to come up with a hybrid of what's the

4 value of the efficiency in the marketplace, and

5 what could those pumps be valued at? What could

6 that price be for you to sell it at? And then

7 Chris is going to run scenarios of what are

8 different markup schemes that could possibly

9 happen.

10 MR. POWERS: That's okay.

11 MR. WEINTRAUB: And you'll be able to

12 bound how the industry will make their money back

13 or not make their money back over the timeframe

14 depending on what the market will bear.

15 MR. POWERS: Well, I just think we need

16 to get a little more financial reality of what the

17 world is seeing and not what we want to see;

18 right? And I think when you look at the MSP you

19 might want to look at status quo.

20 And I agree with the concept of trying

21 to get -- you know, more efficiency might mean

22 more dollars, but it really may not be; right?
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1 MS. COUGHLIN: Right. Well, this is

2 actually status quo in the sense that, you know,

3 all of those -- so those blue boxes that go all

4 the way out, they are currently in the market with

5 apparently no price premium associated with

6 efficiency. There is one thing, though, that is

7 speculative, which is they don't -- a lot of those

8 are models that don't have shipments. So we don't

9 know if people really were selling them if they

10 would sell at that price, nor do we know that if

11 there was a general premium -- I mean, currently

12 there is no premium associated with efficiency.

13 But if there was, which there will be once the

14 standard passes, people will be thinking about it.

15 Then --

16 MR. POWERS: You're saying that, but I

17 don't think very many people agree there would be

18 a premium for the efficiency.

19 MS. COUGHLIN: If not -- so I want to

20 make it very clear that if there is no premium

21 associated with efficiency, then the standard

22 level -- the LCCs just go as high as you can go,
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1 because there is no cost and there is a benefit.

2 Now, we all understand that there is

3 issues with that, but for the LCC, if you change

4 the 30 years to 5 years, you're going to take

5 those points that are above and lift them even

6 further up. So it's not going to help this issue

7 that much.

8 So, you know, we can do it, but I think

9 -- I think it's more a matter of understanding how

10 these individual pieces are going to fit together

11 in the final decision.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Tom Eckman?

13 MR. ECKMAN: Yes. Gary and I were

14 talking here, and this is really a question for

15 the -- Greg left, but the rest of the pump

16 engineers in the world. I mean, what this

17 phenomenon looks like is the time and energy it

18 takes to design a better -- a more efficient pump

19 looks -- you know, you are amortizing it across --

20 regardless of the efficiency.

21 It doesn't look like there's a premium

22 and you -- you can't get it in the market. But
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1 the amount of time it takes to design a better

2 pump, whether it's a 2 percent increment or a 4

3 percent increment, whether you did a 40 or a 70,

4 is the time basically to redesign a pump pretty

5 much the same; right? And -- yes. I'm just

6 talking about the engineering time.

7 MR. HUBER: Let's be clear here.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber?

9 MR. HUBER: Let's be very clear. What

10 we need to talk about is cost, not just the

11 design.

12 MR. ECKMAN: No, no, no. I'm just -- I

13 want to get the two pieces. I think the

14 engineering time is the same. I'm not saying --

15 MR. HUBER: No.

16 MR. ECKMAN: -- the material cost -- no,

17 okay.

18 MR. HUBER: No. The engineering time is

19 not the same.

20 MR. ECKMAN: Okay.

21 MR. HUBER: Because he is going to have

22 to -- he is going to have to do iteration after
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1 iteration after iteration in order to be able to

2 get there.

3 MR. ECKMAN: To get to the higher level.

4 MR. HUBER: Yes, sir.

5 MR. ECKMAN: Okay.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary Fernstrom?

7 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. In the

8 presentation yesterday, I think Dan talked about

9 that a little bit. You know, he showed in some

10 cases a higher cost of materials if you went to

11 investment casting. But he showed some

12 improvement that could be realized just as a

13 result of redesign as well.

14 So I think it's important we look about

15 how these costs stack up, because it's looking to

16 me like it's probably more cost effective, for

17 lack of a better term, if we are going to make

18 changes here to try and go for a higher level of

19 improvement than a modest improvement. I mean,

20 that's the takeaway that I am seeing at the

21 moment.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber?
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1 MR. HUBER: I'm very curious, and this

2 is more of a question for the DOE people. Is the

3 major consideration of whether you set a standard,

4 is it more important for the consumer to be helped

5 or is it equally based that the manufacturer is

6 hurt? Are they equally weighted? Because I can

7 tell you, just looking, before you answer it,

8 Lucas, looking at what we saw yesterday, if you

9 were in a business you would scrap this project,

10 because the cost to what you are going to gain is

11 -- for the manufacturer is terrible. I mean, it's

12 just absolutely awful.

13 MR. POWERS: And I think to support this

14 -- and I don't know, Katie, how we do it, right,

15 in your analysis, which you've done a good job

16 with it, I just think the basic of the

17 information, like let's say no price increase,

18 whatever. But there is another envelope here that

19 we've got to be very careful about.

20 We are opening up Pandora's box for

21 competition from offshore. What stops -- just

22 think about this -- if in the U.S. -- and I'll
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1 just pick a number -- $150 an hour for an

2 engineer. Just picking a number. It's more than

3 that; right? And a guy in India that I know we

4 pay $23 an hour.

5 So that manufacturer in India says, "Oh.

6 I'm going to start from scratch. I can do this.

7 And I'm going to meet this PER-40, PER-55," right?

8 His costs are going to be a lot less to get this

9 going. He may already have some products that are

10 there, newer designs, and he enters the U.S.

11 market with this EnergyStar emblem or

12 whatever we end up doing. And then, you know,

13 like Gary says and all the rest, now the price

14 increase issue is out the door.

15 He is all about volume and everything.

16 His costs are a totally different ballgame than

17 ours, and there will be no price increase of

18 efficiency; right? Because that contractor out

19 there is --

20 MS. COUGHLIN: Yes.

21 MR. POWERS: -- going to say, "Oh. I

22 can buy this product, which is -- meets all of the
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1 standards and all of the requirements and

2 designs." And guess where we're getting a lot of

3 our castings. The same foundry he is getting them

4 from; right? Not in the U.S., overseas; right? So

5 you can't qualify, you know, standard of product

6 and all of that -- and things.

7 So all of a sudden the contractor says,

8 "Geez, I've got a price for a dollar, and I've got

9 a price for $10 from these other two guys," for

10 the exact same product meeting those standards.

11 Where is he going to buy it?

12 MR. BROOKMAN: That was Chuck. Now

13 Gary.

14 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. So --

15 MR. BROOKMAN: And then after Gary, I

16 want to take final questions and comments for

17 Katie. Go ahead, Gary.

18 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay. So I'm going to

19 be quick, Chuck. In every one of these standards

20 improvement processes, we hear your point of view

21 that there is some industry impact. In fact, the

22 fellow from NEMA yesterday said there wasn't any
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1 rulemaking that didn't result in a loss of jobs.

2 The way I rationalize it is,

3 unfortunately, American industry is subject to

4 international competition. And incrementally

5 these rules bring some energy savings benefit, and

6 I don't think proportionately damage jobs as much

7 as the reality of international competition

8 anyway. That's just my point of view.

9 MR. POWERS: Where's the motor

10 manufacturers today? Name some in the U.S.

11 MR. FERNSTROM: The same story. I mean,

12 look at the refrigerator --

13 MR. POWERS: Twenty of them are gone in

14 the last 10 years. Twenty.

15 MR. FERNSTROM: Yes. And look at the

16 refrigerator manufacturers, you know, versus

17 foreign competition, but --

18 MR. POWERS: Nobody wants to admit it,

19 but it's happening.

20 MR. FERNSTROM: It is happening, sadly,

21 and I don't think it's the result of increasing

22 standards.
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1 MR. POWERS: Oh, really?

2 MR. FERNSTROM: No. I think these

3 things would happen anyway.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So let's take

5 additional and perhaps final --

6 MS. COUGHLIN: Actually, I'd like to

7 respond because, again, I want to clarify that

8 these are analyses for informational purposes. And

9 it is not so much about capturing future market

10 prices as about understanding, like I was trying

11 to say, the value versus -- an actual cost, if we

12 can find a way to get the actual cost to the

13 domestic industry into this curve, we can do that

14 balancing.

15 Now, if those actual costs are not the

16 ones that are realized in a future market, that's

17 a separate issue. It will be considered in a

18 separate kind of discussion. So, really, we are

19 just trying to get information about, you know, if

20 you could somehow mix -- pick previous decision --

21 you know, it's a bit of an exercise in

22 imagination.
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1 But if you can sort of say, "Look, if we

2 had the ability to slowly meet this transition to

3 a market where there is a premium associated with

4 efficiency, what would we have to -- how would we

5 have to stratify our product prices?" And if

6 that's really not possible, then that's something

7 that we take into account. But for the LCC, it's

8 just -- you know, there's a convention about how

9 it's done, and this is how it's done. So --

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber?

11 MR. HUBER: I'm still waiting on an

12 answer to my question, but I also -- you know, I

13 also want to comment. Your own data shows that we

14 are not getting price for efficiency. Correct?

15 Your own data.

16 MS. COUGHLIN: I consider it to be

17 somewhat ambiguous. Like I said, some of those

18 points there --

19 MR. HUBER: Ambiguous?

20 MS. COUGHLIN: -- do not have shipments.

21 So I don't know what the price would really be if

22 they were being manufactured and sold.
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1 MR. HUBER: Well, it depends. You're

2 only sampling -- I don't know how many we have. We

3 did 21 manufacturers, although they're the major

4 portion of the market for sure. But there are 508

5 pump manufacturers in this country, and probably

6 we're going to end up with -- if it gets real

7 onerous, you're probably going to end up with 10

8 maybe.

9 And if you think that won't impact jobs,

10 and that that's not important, nobody is going to

11 be using the power you're saving anyway. Do you

12 understand? If there are no jobs, who is working

13 and who is going to pay the taxes and who is going

14 to support all of these programs that you are so

15 fond of? You need to think about that. There are

16 a lot of jobs at stake here. And he is not

17 kidding; these people right now can go and

18 engineer this offshore and come in here, as long

19 as they meet the standards, and there is nothing

20 we can do about it.

21 MR. POWERS: And the reason I say that

22 is there are several companies, like ourselves,
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1 Al's, and the others, we go to these places. In

2 order to compete in India, we have to make it in

3 India; right? There are some specialty products -

4 - don't get me wrong, some of the nuclear, some of

5 the geothermals, there is stuff that, you know,

6 there is technologies here that were the first in

7 the hunt; right?

8 But so we are in there, and we are

9 living it and we are seeing it. But we are also

10 seeing that local competitor there who on a

11 moment's notice can flip and come this way; right?

12 It can be a two-way street. So the issue here

13 that Gary is bringing up is right. We need to

14 raise the bar. We need to continue to improve --

15 no argument. There -- needs improvement on

16 technology. No argument.

17 But how do we balance that so that we

18 try to look at -- what you're doing, Katie, is

19 excellent. How can we try to push things to gain

20 more if we could; right? And our people would be

21 very keen on that as time goes, right, over the

22 next five years and all. But at the same time,
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1 how can we minimize the loss of jobs and/or the

2 balance of the industries and everything that goes

3 with it, you know?

4 I agree. I just -- we've got to be

5 careful that we don't overstate this. And 30

6 years was -- I'm not picking on Dan, but that was

7 way off.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas?

9 MR. ADIN: I'll see if I can try and

10 address Al's question. Unfortunately, there's no

11 definitive way that I can tell you this one factor

12 matters more than another. It really -- there are

13 seven factors that we have to consider in

14 evaluating which standard level is justifiable in

15 a particular case. And in every standards

16 rulemaking we do, those have different

17 considerations.

18 This one will be different from a

19 refrigerators rule, which is different from a

20 motors rule, different from a lighting rule. I

21 mean, we are seeing some of the results of the

22 analysis that helps us figure out what makes
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1 sense, but -- and, you know, in this case it is

2 not even just -- like we've said from the

3 beginning, I'm just one vote. I mean, everyone

4 around this table has a say in how this will work.

5 We all have to vote on it based on how

6 we feel about these different things. So, I mean,

7 I think we all came into this with the

8 understanding that, you know, we would look at

9 what the data looked at, looked like, and, you

10 know, decide for our own -- for our own purposes

11 in this negotiation what we thought was

12 reasonable.

13 So it certainly sounds like there are

14 some parts of this that the manufacturers would be

15 most concerned about. That makes perfect sense.

16 And, you know, I'm sure you must have a sense,

17 once we get into what the actual standard levels

18 might be, what you'd reasonably be able to

19 tolerate. And so you'll be -- I assume you'll be

20 voting on that basis and, you know, we'll refine

21 the analysis to help us understand what the

22 impacts would look like, but --
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Tom Eckman?

2 MR. ECKMAN: Yes. I want to restate

3 there are -- as Lucas said, there are seven

4 factors here. Each one of them get weighed

5 differentially in each rulemaking. And having

6 been involved in multiple of these, I can tell you

7 there is no thumb on the scale for any one of

8 them. Each time it's a different consideration.

9 Sometimes it's the manufacturing impact that

10 drives it; sometimes it's the consumer impact.

11 So, I mean, that -- and I think I at

12 least came to this table wanting to weigh those

13 equally and find out the information that, you

14 know, as it unfolds we'll see what the

15 manufacturing benefits and costs are and the

16 consumer benefits and costs. I think that's, to

17 me, an important factor. And we will weigh those

18 and reach some conclusion.

19 I certainly don't think we have the data

20 yet to even begin to think about where they are on

21 the scale, because you guys have concerns, we have

22 concerns about -- this is an example. It's not an
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1 endpoint. So I hope we're open to that.

2 And to Chuck, I clearly see the offshore

3 -- we've seen it in every rulemaking, and we've

4 seen it independent of rulemaking. And my

5 cautionary note in my own mind is, independent of

6 whether we have a rulemaking or not, those folks

7 in India are ready to come over shore -- onshore

8 independent of this. So it --

9 MR. POWERS: In China and all, but the

10 difference is, are we speeding it up?

11 MR. ECKMAN: And that we have to weigh.

12 MR. POWERS: Are we speeding it up?

13 MR. ECKMAN: That we have to weigh.

14 MR. POWERS: And are we putting any kind

15 of a -- any kind of a challenge on it -- and

16 another example I'll give, where is the regulatory

17 here? Example; right? Let's say we love this, we

18 do it, and we're going to do it, and it's all

19 good, and we're all happy; right? He tests his

20 pump and he says, "I've got the star and I'm

21 putting it on it." Who is going to go over there

22 and verify what he tests is right?
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1 You want me to take 2,000 pumps that

2 come in offshore, different kinds of pumps, and

3 test every one of them to verify and give you guys

4 a report? I'll do as many as I can. I can't do

5 2,000 of them. And I won't be able to check every

6 one of them. And once the contractor already has

7 it onsite -- and don't get me wrong. I mean,

8 these are all things we've got to look at it. This

9 is the real world; right? This is the game we're

10 playing; right?

11 And I'll say one last thing and I'll let

12 it go. Pump manufacturers are losing jobs in this

13 deal -- however big, however small. How many

14 other people at this table and their constituents

15 are losing jobs because of this?

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you, Chuck.

17 Alison?

18 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. So I just wanted to

19 say, I mean, I see all your points, and I think as

20 Tom said and Lucas said, this is what you guys are

21 going to negotiate on things like that. These

22 aren't necessarily super specific to this
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1 analysis, and I am wondering if before you guys

2 get into that kind of negotiation with those

3 thoughts, if we could just return to whether you

4 have any other concerns or things you'd like us to

5 update in the analyses to help us, you know, give

6 you better data moving forward or if -- I mean, if

7 you don't have any other feedback, that's fine.

8 But I just wanted to sort of return to that if we

9 could, while Katie is up there and --

10 MR. POWERS: If we can get copies of

11 these things, I don't think we have this one --

12 MS. COUGHLIN: No. I don't think you

13 got it. So --

14 MR. POWERS: If we get these things, I'm

15 sure we'll love to respond to them, as logically

16 as we possibly can, you know, slide by slide,

17 like, Katie, look at this, that doesn't make

18 sense, like we did on the one; right? Those kind

19 of dialogues would be very good, but I don't have

20 this to comment on. So it's not --

21 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. So we can send out

22 the slides and just -- on a timeline sort of
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1 thing. We are supposed to do the webinar on May

2 14th. So is that like two weeks from now or

3 something? So if within the next week maybe you

4 guys can provide feedback on those things, that

5 would be fantastic?

6 I did just get the lifetime double7 checked. I think we do have an error on ESFM,

8 because it's not accounting for enough repair

9 cycles. So we will follow up on that.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: As a process note -- and

11 Lucas is next in the queue -- I was thinking that

12 the webinar on May 14th was going to deal with

13 metrics first, and then I thought it was going to

14 be the engineering analysis that Dan was doing

15 primarily. Maybe I got that wrong.

16 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. So, I mean, from

17 our perspective --

18 MR. BROOKMAN: So I'm wondering whether

19 we could fit LCC in there.

20 MS. WILLIAMS: You know, the engineering

21 and LCC, we'll try to send out results before the

22 webinar, and maybe it can be a little bit more
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1 about follow-up questions, because the methodology

2 is not really going to change for either of ours,

3 just some of the assumptions will be. So I don't

4 think we will need to present extensively on what

5 happened. Maybe we can just point out the key

6 inputs that we change; then show the new results.

7 And I don't think that would be super time8 consuming.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Okay. Lucas, do

10 you want to add in here?

11 MR. ADIN: I don't think I have anything

12 else significant to add. Just maybe to emphasize,

13 and maybe this isn't something that necessarily

14 needs to be specifically pointed out. But the

15 order in which we are presenting all of these

16 analyses has nothing to do with the priority that

17 we place upon them, how importantly we view any

18 one of them.

19 It's just this is the order we normally

20 do the analysis. So we're not saying, "Well, you

21 know, look at how this one turned out. Clearly,

22 this justifies something at a particular level."
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1 We're not making any statements about that. This

2 is just the order we do it. As Katie pointed out,

3 it's informational and there is still more to come

4 that will, you know, potentially say different

5 things about what level might be justified.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: So on May 14th,

7 additional inputs/revisions on the engineering

8 analysis and the LCC for that conference call or

9 webinar.

10 Katie, did you have any additional

11 questions?

12 MS. COUGHLIN: I was just going to say

13 that we may actually send out questions for you.

14 So if we track down some inconsistencies in the

15 data, then we will send that out so that we can be

16 more efficient.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: I think that's very good.

18 I think that's excellent.

19 Dan first.

20 MR. DELANEY: Thank you, Katie. This is

21 -- this was very good.

22 You know, listening to the full day
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1 yesterday with the pump team making their points,

2 and then looking at this data, to me it's just

3 validation of the points you guys were making as I

4 look through these.

5 I kind of understand Katie's point now

6 of unambiguous or ambiguous of what the data is,

7 because things could be drawn both ways against

8 the line, which seem, you know, crazy as you look

9 across essentially saying, you know, for the most

10 part across the PR levels. You know, very, very

11 low lifecycle cost payback -- well, I shouldn't

12 say payback, lifecycle cost as well as across all

13 of those.

14 I guess what I'm disappointed not being

15 able to see -- and maybe there is more to come --

16 is the PERVL; right? This is all PERCL, if you

17 will, that we are discussing. It doesn't sound

18 like we're going to get a chance to see the VL. Is

19 that true or not? We're not going to do an LCC of

20 that concept?

21 MS. COUGHLIN: It's not part of the rule

22 because we're not considering variable load
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1 matching as a design option. We could at some

2 point do a scenario analysis showing, you know,

3 what happens when you switch a variable load from

4 a throttle to a drive. Again, that would be

5 information, and we can do that. It's going to

6 require a lot of back and forth to get the details

7 of the drive efficiency and the matching of the

8 pumps to loads to motors, all that stuff.

9 So it's certainly possible to do that,

10 but because, you know, strictly speaking this --

11 once we make our decision here, all of this flows

12 on through to the various other people that review

13 these analyses. The variable load is not -- not

14 being a design option, there is not really any

15 point in doing it here.

16 MR. DELANEY: Yes. I guess -- again,

17 Dan Delaney from Regal. I guess my point would be

18 is that this keeps putting out the pump as the

19 main driver. We're looking at more and more of a

20 flat efficiency across those points and showing

21 more of a savings, obviously, that can be gained

22 from a system approach and how that can be
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1 justified from an LCC perspective, you know.

2 It would be nice to have at least a data

3 point or an example, and I'll assume that when we

4 talked about -- when we captured some of those

5 items, we talked about that example. It would be

6 great to be able to run through some of these,

7 just to show those as a base point. So --

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Dan, this is the first

9 meeting you've attended. And in previous meetings

10 we have covered that ground multiple times.

11 MR. DELANEY: Yes. Absolutely.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Multiple times.

13 MR. DELANEY: Yes.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Mark Handzel, do you want

15 to add in?

16 MR. HANDZEL: Well, no, I -- that's

17 exactly -- you know, Dan, we've been pointing out

18 to DOE for over two-plus years that the savings

19 was not in the pump efficiency; it was in the

20 overall -- what we call the extended product

21 approach. So, I mean, you know --

22 MR. POWERS: It was a very small
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1 percentage of --

2 MR. HANDZEL: Yes. Right. So, I mean,

3 that has been out point, that, okay, you can pick

4 on the pump, but really, if you want to be serious

5 about this, you've got to look at the extended

6 product.

7 MR. DELANEY: Yes. I guess -- Dan

8 Delaney from Regal again. Just it's nice to see

9 the LCC prove that. That's my only comment. It

10 seems to validate your points.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.

12 MR. DELANEY: I could see it being put

13 the other way.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary Fernstrom?

15 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. I want to

16 go back to employment one quick moment. You know,

17 not surprisingly, we are the energy efficiency

18 advocates, and we may tend to downplay the

19 industry impact and overemphasize the energy

20 savings importance. But in every one of these

21 rulemakings I have been involved in, DOE has been

22 very, very sensitive to the industry impact.
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1 In fact, in the transformer rulemaking,

2 the energy efficiency advocacy group walked away

3 very disappointed because it appeared to us like

4 the decision was very heavily weighted toward the

5 industry impact and not the energy saving

6 opportunity. So I would say to you that's yet to

7 be determined. And I think you'll find a fair

8 compromise come out of this.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: I want to shift gears

10 now. We returned from lunch almost at 1:00, when

11 we started. So we're just going to keep going

12 until 3:00, which is our end time today.

13 Dan, are you prepared to come up here

14 and this, as I understand it, Dan was presenting

15 on engineering analysis. He raised a bunch of

16 issues and flagged a bunch of assumptions

17 yesterday. And members requested that we review

18 some of that so that you could further comment,

19 and that's what we're going to do right now. Okay.

20 MR. WEINTRAUB: It looks like a few

21 people are taking a bathroom break. We should

22 probably --
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's take a five-minute

2 break.

3 (Off the record.)

4 (On the record.)

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Let's resume.

6 Okay. Let's start back up.

7 Dan Weintraub you'll note is at the

8 podium. And I have asked Dan if he could somehow

9 return to the issues yesterday that seemed -- the

10 assumptions and issues that seemed to elicit the

11 greatest response. So I've asked him to start

12 there or wherever he thinks is appropriate.

13 MR. WEINTRAUB: Okay. Thanks, Doug.

14 Yes. So I went through the slides last

15 night and through the notes and put together

16 everything that I had noted people had significant

17 issues with and wanted to discuss. Some might be

18 moot at this point, but we'll go through them. And

19 if anyone has anything else to add as we're going

20 through, let's definitely go through it.

21 The goal here is to nail down these

22 inputs. So when we come back to it with updates,
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1 we are not talking about assumptions. We are just

2 talking about the changes in the data. We roll it

3 into the analysis.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Which will be on May

5 14th.

6 MR. WEINTRAUB: Exactly. Exactly. Okay.

7 So the number one assumption that was up for

8 discussion, which we should talk about first,

9 probably the biggest, was percent of pumps

10 dropped. So for everyone in the room, in the

11 beginning period when we had some time I spoke

12 with the manufacturers and we talked about percent

13 of pumps dropped.

14 And I'll say up front I think we were a

15 little broad in our generalizations of the

16 industry when we were looking at pumps dropped. I

17 looked back at our data. And we talked it over. I

18 had some ideas where it would be; they had some

19 ideas where it would be.

20 What we came to agree upon, myself and

21 the manufacturers, talking about the data, would

22 be 25 percent of pumps are dropped at the low PER
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1 level. Ten. And then at 40, going down 15. Now,

2 I actually have numbers to back this up, as I went

3 back into the data, and I am going to walk you

4 guys through just a quick set of numbers that help

5 make sense of this and how we were overestimating

6 it earlier.

7 Okay. Let me zoom in here.

8 MR. POWERS: Dan, will you be able to

9 send us that previous slide?

10 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yes. Yes. All these

11 slides.

12 Okay. So, for reference, the number of

13 pumps we had in our database -- 972. This is end

14 suction pumps, number of pumps we had, total

15 models that we have been using all throughout,

16 2,050.

17 So we had a select set of manufacturers

18 who talked to us about exactly how much pumps they

19 were going to drop. We know. We can count up

20 those pumps that were going to be dropped. We

21 also had a select -- we also had a set of

22 manufacturers that we spoke to that didn't tell us
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1 anything about what they would drop, and then we

2 had a whole half of the industry that we didn't

3 talk to, you know, we got nothing on.

4 We took what we found from the people

5 who talked to us, applied it to the people we

6 didn't talk to, and then applied it to the

7 industry or -- sorry. So we extrapolated that

8 way. That overestimated our estimates.

9 If you look at -- we'll use PER-10,

10 number of pumps failing in the database, 97. So

11 we'll say industry models failing, 205. We knew

12 from everything 34 of those would be dropped, just

13 manufacturers telling us. That's 66 percent. We

14 kind of applied that out to everything.

15 Well, in reality, talking with the

16 manufacturers, the ones who didn't tell us

17 anything is because they are not planning on

18 really dropping many pumps. And the general

19 consensus was zero to 10 percent for a general

20 manufacturer in the industry who didn't have any

21 other reason, such as a large conglomerate

22 industry, to not drop pumps and bring in other
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1 models.

2 So if you say 10 percent from the

3 remaining models that have failed are the ones

4 that drop, you get 15 models drop of all the rest

5 of the pumps, aside from the people we talked to.

6 So you have 34 pumps being dropped and 15 pumps

7 being dropped, and it ends up being 24 percent

8 when you work these numbers.

9 Similarly, going down the line, assuming

10 that less pumps are dropped as you go further out,

11 just like we had learned from the other

12 manufacturers, going down to I think five percent

13 of the pumps are dropped from the manufacturers

14 that we have not spoken to because they weren't

15 planning on really dropping many.

16 You put those numbers together and it

17 scales down to 16 and then out to 15. So we are

18 proposing modeling 25, linearly going down to 15

19 at 40, and then 15 out, based on our discussions.

20 And I think the manufacturers are in agreement

21 this is for the advocates to evaluate this. Any

22 objections? No?
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: And I think it's worth

2 noting again these new data -- that is based on a

3 consultation with members of the Committee.

4 MR. WEINTRAUB: Of the manufacturing

5 caucus, yes.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Chuck?

7 MR. POWERS: Yes. And I think what's

8 good about what Dan did is a couple of us -- I

9 know Charlie and myself both said it would be

10 somewhere between zero and 10 based on the model

11 and all. But we also, you know, just to

12 reemphasize there are customers that require a

13 pump to do a certain type of application service

14 that may not meet PER, may not meet the standard.

15 So whether they say, "Look, Chuck, we

16 need a really low NPSH, and when you open that eye

17 up, you impact efficiency." There's applications

18 that require special -- they might say, "We need a

19 cut" -- I mean, "we need a velocity coming out of

20 discharge. We need you to neck it down because we

21 have some kind of pickling system or something we

22 have to go to."
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1 So some of those pumps -- and they're --

2 by the way, they're made by the thousands. They're

3 designed one time and they're done. They may not

4 make this. We're not going to delete those. What

5 we are going to do is find a way to try to improve

6 upon them a little bit better and, you know, as

7 best as possible. But there is customers that

8 will say, "Look, we need that for a specific

9 service and the way it's used."

10 So, you know, I'm just saying even

11 though there is a dropping concept or failing,

12 right, whether we're really dropping it or not is

13 another story. We may just say, "Look, we're

14 going to have to" -- and I guess that begs the

15 question, you know, like any standards that come

16 out, Lucas, will there be some type of a format or

17 something that will say, "Look, this is a

18 specialized service for a specific application. It

19 gets a waiver or something." I don't know if that

20 will come out of this ruling or not.

21 You know, there might be a reason we are

22 going to have that. I don't know. But it may be
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1 prudent; right?

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas?

3 MR. ADIN: Well, so, I mean, that

4 question was partly addressed at the very

5 beginning when we decided scope and the

6 definitions for the pumps that we're covering. So

7 to the extent there were specific exclusions for

8 applications, we would have addressed that in the

9 beginning.

10 Now, if there is still something you're

11 thinking of that is even within the scope that we

12 are considering here, that is kind of a different

13 question. Is that -- are you saying there still

14 might be specific applications that would be

15 covered that --

16 MR. POWERS: Yes. It depends on the

17 application all within this; right? They are

18 still made by the hundreds of thousands. Don't

19 get me wrong. It's just that they are designed a

20 certain way for a particular, you know,

21 application that they need it that way. Right?

22 And it's okay. We'll just -- we are going to have
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1 to see how the fallout is.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: We got it. Yes, we got

3 it. So, Dan, that was good. That was really

4 good. Proceed.

5 MR. WEINTRAUB: All right. So it

6 doesn't seem like there is any disagreement on

7 that. So we are going to go forward with updating

8 the numbers with those dropped percentages.

9 The other -- okay. The other items up

10 on the board I'm going to go through. Hopefully,

11 these will not take too long. First one -- the

12 next one is changes in MPC when switching to

13 advanced casting. So I went back to our data.

14 What our data showed from surveys from

15 manufacturers -- the average cost increase of

16 those reporting was two percent, and there was a

17 maximum of 15 percent increase and a minimum of

18 minus 15 percent increase. So some manufacturers

19 reported that switching to the advanced casting

20 would save money, some reported that it would cost

21 a little more money, and on average it came out to

22 two percent over, which we looked at as zero cost
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1 increase.

2 Okay. So we would like to keep it at

3 zero cost increase, unless there is any

4 objections. Okay.

5 MR. SDANO: I've got a comment on that.

6 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yes, Arnie.

7 MR. SDANO: Yes. Arnie Sdano, Pentair.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Are you on the mike,

9 Arnie?

10 MR. SDANO: One of the problems

11 associated with switching over to, say, for

12 example, investment castings, normally you might

13 have just secured that impeller in lots of five.

14 But in an investment cast situation, you have to

15 buy maybe 100 as a minimum. And so there is an

16 increase in inventory, generally speaking, which

17 has a lot of cost to it when you switch over to

18 the more advanced casting methods.

19 MR. WEINTRAUB: Okay. That's a very

20 good point, Arnie. Thank you.

21 One other thing which I think may help

22 account for the fact that not everyone would have
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1 the economic incentive to switch over was that

2 when we modeled this into the analysis, we said

3 only an additional 10 percent of the market would

4 switch over to investment casting. Not everyone

5 that could would actually switch over, and this

6 was talking with Greg Case. We said 60 percent

7 are there -- are advanced casting. We said 10

8 more percent may switch over, which left the

9 remaining 30 to account for business cases where

10 it doesn't make sense to switch over, and they are

11 going to stay with sand casting.

12 MR. POWERS: Dan, there's only one

13 challenge here, and that is the higher we choose

14 later, the PER, they may not have a choice.

15 Remember, in the early phase, everybody was just

16 getting numbers together and all of that, and

17 that's fine. But, and you didn't talk composite,

18 which in a way is investment, but it's a different

19 deal. The costs are still pretty high initially.

20 So I think where we end up in the

21 decision there is going to impact whether people

22 have to go to investment.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: So that was Chuck. And

2 now back to Tom Eckman.

3 MR. ECKMAN: It seems to me, Chuck, that

4 that ought to be reflected in the industry

5 conversion cost. So as it goes up higher, that

6 should be reflected if there is a requirement

7 pretty much to go to investment.

8 MR. POWERS: But this is prevailing.

9 MR. ECKMAN: Well, but if the assumption

10 is that 10 percent would have to go, well, if we

11 push it up further, then wherever that presumption

12 was then maybe 15 percent or 20 percent has to go.

13 That changes the conversion cost. It's just, you

14 know, there's a fraction that don't have to go.

15 Well, at some point, more have to go.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Al Huber?

17 MR. HUBER: I think when you asked the

18 question, the manufacturers were looking at the

19 cost of the part itself. They were not

20 necessarily looking at -- you know, for instance,

21 the vacuum die cast may cost you more on a per

22 pound basis, but they are usually thinner-walled
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1 because they are cast more accurately, and they

2 don't have to be cleaned as much. So there is not

3 that much -- so those kind of offset. Okay?

4 However, I don't think anybody

5 considered the cost of carrying inventory, and

6 Arnie is correct. You know, if you're getting

7 small lots, it's going to be difficult. It's

8 going to -- you're going to have to buy them in

9 larger lots, and then you are going to have the

10 cost of carrying inventory, which I don't think is

11 reflected in that.

12 I did. I know I helped answer the

13 survey on a personal basis, and I'm telling you we

14 didn't look at that.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Including the capital

16 costs.

17 MR. POWERS: Yes. The sand casting,

18 they'll set up, you know, the drags for one to 10

19 to whatever you need. But lost foam, you know, to

20 get the foams, some of the guys, based on the type

21 of configuration and how difficult the curvatures

22 and issues are, they will be in lots of 500.
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1 MR. WEINTRAUB: Okay. Now, so jumping

2 back to what people are actually mentioning, cost

3 of carrying inventory, so obviously this was not

4 something that was explored in this. Is there

5 input that the industry could give towards the

6 additional cost of carrying inventory? And, of

7 course, we can put that -- that can be under NDA,

8 if we'd like.

9 But I would also like to remind you that

10 we are looking at the cost of changing to

11 investment casting as compared to all the other --

12 the total aggregate costs. It is not a large

13 piece of the pie because most of the industry has

14 already switched over. So we can talk about it

15 and we can try and model it in, but I think the

16 numbers show that it's not going to impact too

17 much. We've put some weight on it already.

18 You know, you're talking about seven

19 percent right now of -- it's a seven percent

20 increase over the total cost of redesign was the

21 cost to change there, and it only applies to 10

22 percent of the failing pumps that are redesigned.
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1 So it's going to be a small fraction, and I

2 personally don't feel like it's going to impact

3 the results enough right now that we need to --

4 that we need to really dig into this. Thank you.

5 All right.

6 Next, is polishing really a design

7 option? So in the end we got to the point that

8 the model showed, that less than -- or

9 approximately three percent of failing models

10 would be polished. The overall impact would be

11 small, and we're actually not even considering the

12 incremental cost due to it in the LCC. So I don't

13 feel that we need to address this further. If

14 anyone else has complaints? Yes.

15 MR. POTTS: I have a question.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Doug Potts?

17 MR. POTTS: Yes. Doug Potts, American

18 Water. I meant to ask this yesterday. From what

19 I understand, all of the polishing options had to

20 do with polishing the impeller. Is that correct?

21 MR. WEINTRAUB: That's correct. Yes.

22 MR. POTTS: Is polishing the bowl an
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1 option? Is that something that manufacturers are

2 considering? Is there any efficiency gain with

3 that?

4 MR. WEINTRAUB: So, personally, the

5 reason we screened out polishing the bowl was

6 because we are -- the majority of pumps we are

7 dealing with are cast iron, bronze-fitted, and we

8 don't look at cast iron polishing as a viable

9 design option, because we know that it will

10 degrade quickly. Although it's something that

11 manufacturers could choose to do, we are not

12 evaluating it as a design option because it will -

13 - it is going to degrade quickly over time.

14 MR. POTTS: Unless it is coated; right?

15 Unless --

16 MR. WEINTRAUB: Unless it's coated.

17 MR. POTTS: But you did account for that

18 separately; right?

19 MR. WEINTRAUB: So coating -- so we did

20 not put coating in as a design option, because

21 manufacturers gave issues to coating.

22 MR. HUBER: This is Al Huber, Patterson.
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1 I can tell you, Doug, that we run tests, sending

2 them out to different places that do the

3 mechanical polishing, both bowls and casings and

4 impellers. And if you are using good casting

5 techniques, you don't get very much improvement,

6 and then it doesn't last. So it's really not very

7 viable, and coatings never last over an extended

8 period of time.

9 MR. POWERS: This is Chuck. The only

10 thing would be -- and I don't know how many pumps

11 would have this on your sheet, but the multi12 stage, so if you had one impeller for one bowl,

13 that's one thing, and you had those numbers. But

14 I don't remember, do we have a lot of multi-stage

15 pumps?

16 MR. WEINTRAUB: So the analysis thus far

17 has only been end suction and inline pumps,

18 because we didn't have the data yet on multi19 stage.

20 MR. POWERS: And now you're getting it;

21 right?

22 MR. WEINTRAUB: Now we're getting it.
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1 And on multi-stage we are actually making the

2 design options only be the hydraulic redesigns,

3 especially because the market -- the restriction -

4 - sorry. The scope that we're looking at, the

5 vast majority of the market is fabricated

6 stainless steel within the scope that we are

7 dealing with here for the vertical turbines, 4 and

8 6, and the radial split verticals, where polishing

9 for the vast majority just isn't something that

10 can be done.

11 All right. Running down the line, the

12 other item, second-to-the-last item was changing

13 the cost-sharing for testing costs up to 100,

14 which we agreed upon. That was an oversight on

15 our part, and so that has been updated already.

16 Finally, Chuck had brought up the idea

17 of there being other costs beyond what the HI

18 survey had given to us, and I'll open that up. If

19 you guys feel that there are more, I can't speak

20 for HI. I think it needs to be an industry

21 decision, if they don't feel that they have given

22 something that's accurate.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber?

2 MR. HUBER: I think there is an

3 additional cost, depending on -- that I'm not so

4 sure everybody considered. If you go far enough

5 up the PER, you know, we were all looking when we

6 did this at 40 I think; right?

7 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yes.

8 MR. HUBER: Okay. So if you go to 85,

9 now we're probably going to have to -- everybody

10 is going to have to do VFD. They're going to have

11 to do a lot of work, and that I don't think has

12 been reflected. So if you -- if you -- if we were

13 to require that, which the industry certainly

14 hopes you don't, but if that was the case, then

15 there would be more engineering cost involved than

16 what was reported.

17 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yes. So --

18 MR. HUBER: Did it go to 70?

19 MR. WEINTRAUB: What's that?

20 MR. HANDZEL: Your survey, when you did

21 it, I think it went from .4 to .7, it didn't have

22 all of those different levels.
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1 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yes, it did. So the

2 survey, not everyone responded, but what we did

3 because of that, which we went through yesterday,

4 was after PER-40 we started upping the cost until

5 you hit a max of 1.8 times the cost that you guys

6 gave us to account for the additional iterations.

7 And Charlie went through the ideas of iterations,

8 getting it wrong, getting it right, keeping going

9 until you get to the -- hit that point. So I feel

10 that I think if that's -- I feel like we've

11 covered that idea as best we can.

12 MR. POWERS: I think Dan and a few other

13 ones, and I don't know how it impacts you

14 directly, but there is a lot of regulations on

15 lead; right? Get the lead out so to speak. So

16 there used to be bronzes that had lead in it.

17 There used to be irons. You know, I hate to say

18 it, but some of those are actually better product

19 for efficiencies, and we're not allowed to use

20 them anymore.

21 But there is alternatives people play

22 with. There might be some costs involved there.
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1 In other words, a standard iron class 30 of grade

2 A STME-48, there's different grades, that will

3 help that, those costs more.

4 Another one would be in relationship to

5 the inventory. If we are bringing it offshore for

6 lost foam suppliers, there's not as many in the

7 States as everybody thinks there is. Then you

8 have to -- in order to ship something in a couple

9 of weeks or a week or less, you have to have the

10 inventory here to ship it; right? So you have to

11 think about getting that over the water.

12 The other one is solid modeling versus

13 vectors; right? If you do -- you know, standard

14 Auto CAD is vector designs. That's the old days.

15 Actually, the old days where Al grew up was pencil

16 and paper, but -- and myself, by the way, I didn't

17 even have a calculator. Slide rule. I still have

18 my -- do you have your Dietzgen slide rule still?

19 I still have mine.

20 Anyway, it is the cost of the stations

21 that you have to buy or rent when you go to solid

22 modeling. That is -- that can be a pretty healthy
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1 cost. If you're subbing out to a consultant,

2 you're covered; right? But some of the companies

3 may not have those stations, you know, purchased;

4 right? You know what I mean, the feed you have to

5 buy and all of that. So there are some pretty

6 healthy costs there.

7 MR. WEINTRAUB: Okay. Well, thank you.

8 I think on that last point, I mean, we

9 will have to defer to your industry group on that,

10 because they provided costs of redesign. And I

11 would myself, being an engineer, too, would say

12 that if I were to be planning out a redesign cost,

13 I think I would incorporate the cost of -- you

14 know, of going out to rent your space on a

15 computer or a mainframe. So --

16 MS. MAUER: Chuck, this is Joanna. I

17 just wanted to ask about I think the first point

18 you raised about lead. And are you saying that

19 due to the efficiency standard you would go to

20 higher cost -- is this a cost that is associated

21 with efficiency standard or a cost that is not

22 related to --
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1 MR. POWERS: Different materials will

2 improve efficiency; right? Just like you get into

3 higher alloys and stainless stuff. It's the same

4 with different grades of bronzes and different

5 grades of irons, porosity levels and things like

6 that. Okay? We are not allowed to use lead

7 anymore; right? And that actually can impact

8 castings, processing, you know, corrections,

9 things like that. Right?

10 MR. WEINTRAUB: Okay.

11 MS. MAUER: But this isn't -- you are

12 not talking about a change in what you are using

13 in response to an efficiency standrd.

14 MR. POWERS: We are going to look at

15 everything. Whether it's .2, .2 percent

16 improvement or .5 across the board, as we are

17 looking here, we are getting -- that extra erg, as

18 I keep talking about, we've got to look at

19 everything.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Mark Handzel?

21 MR. HANDZEL: You know, I was just going

22 to say, you know, what he is referring to is the
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1 fact that, you know, there's now low lead

2 standards that we all have to comply with in our

3 product. So we basically have gone to all those

4 low leads. So, you know, it's -- the material is

5 now harder to machine. You know, it's a higher

6 scrap rate involved. So that's what -- Chuck was

7 just saying that we have already had to make that

8 change going to the low lead materials.

9 MR. WEINTRAUB: So just to put this in

10 perspective, so what we have evaluated is the

11 baseline situation is 2012. You already

12 incorporated the low lead. Our efficiencies that

13 we're looking at are dealing with low lead

14 impellers.

15 So there is no -- there is no changes.

16 That doesn't impact us, looking at this analysis.

17 Cumulative regulatory burden, that is -- you know,

18 that is something that's considered, how much is

19 the industry facing at one time from one thing.

20 MR. POWERS: But my point is, we may

21 want to be looking at materials that help the

22 standard where we are today to the next level,
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1 just like lead brought us up a different level.

2 Right? So those costs may be an impact. The cast

3 iron A-48 standard, we may have to go to something

4 different to improve efficiency, to improve the

5 products, thinness of the veins, different things.

6 That's all I'm saying.

7 MR. WEINTRAUB: Okay. Thank you.

8 All right. So we've gone through the

9 list. Unless anyone has objections, so it seems

10 like the consensus on the HI side was that we are

11 going to continue with the costs that we went

12 through, that we originally used. Okay? And no

13 objections. So we're going to continue on with

14 the cost structure.

15 That covers it. We will, I'll, send

16 this out, and we will provide the updated analysis

17 using these assumptions that we have just

18 validated now and that will close this.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: That was good work, Dan.

20 Thank you very much.

21 MR. WEINTRAUB: All right. Thank you.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Final questions on --
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1 related to this? Greg?

2 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg Towsley, Grundfos.

3 Just no pressure -- the new PER calculator?

4 MS. WIDDER: I'm working on it.

5 (Laughter.)

6 MR. BROOKMAN: For the record, Sarah,

7 with her nose in the computer on the side of the

8 room, says she's working on it.

9 Okay. I think that's most of what we

10 intended to cover. I'm looking over to Lucas.

11 Yes? Yes. Okay.

12 So then it is now 20 minutes until 3:00.

13 I'm going to bring this meeting to closure and do

14 a very brief summary of what we have covered in

15 the span of the last two days, which was a lot.

16 On day one, we had a very detailed

17 description of the market and technology,

18 screening, and engineering analysis; in fact, 90

19 pages of PowerPoint slides to give a rather

20 detailed representation of all of the different

21 analyses that we together will undertake as we

22 continue to negotiate about the actual standard
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1 levels. And that was the bulk of yesterday.

2 Today, we started off the meeting late

3 because we didn't have everybody and we needed

4 particularly the court reporter. But we had a

5 very productive discussion, looking ahead on the

6 process features, for the Working Group,

7 particularly the workload, whether we thought we'd

8 be able to accomplish the workload in the time

9 allocated.

10 And, as a consequence, we established

11 some possible supplemental meeting dates. And

12 everybody now has got them at least penciled on

13 their calendar. And they are June 17th and July

14 25th. More information on that to follow.

15 We also established a webinar date for

16 May 14th as a follow-on from this meeting. But

17 once we really got underway at 9:45 in the

18 morning, we had a detailed presentation on

19 metrics. And we made a breakthrough on this

20 point, I think, a lot of shared insight and a lot

21 of agreement conceptually on the direction with

22 metrics.
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1 All the members present are going to be

2 going back and doing their calculations to check

3 on that. And that will be a topic that will be

4 taken up on the webinar, the first topic of the

5 webinar on May 14th. The second topic on May 14th

6 will be the engineering analysis and revisions to

7 the lifecycle cost analysis based on feedback that

8 you are going to supply, the members present will

9 supply.

10 And then following the metrics

11 discussion, we had a good presentation on

12 lifecycle cost, and then we just closed out now

13 the reconsideration/revisions to the engineering

14 analysis based on feedback that the analysts

15 received yesterday.

16 So that's the summary of what we have

17 covered, and I'm pleased. I'm pleased by the

18 tenor of the conversation. I'm pleased by the

19 endurance of this group. And we are making

20 progress, and we are going to have to continue to

21 make progress to meet our timelines.

22 Do you wish to say anything here?
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1 MR. ADIN: Yes. Thanks, Doug. I'll

2 just offer a few closing thoughts.

3 So we have obviously presented a lot

4 over the last couple of days, and we have gotten

5 some initial feedback, which is great. We want to

6 get as much feedback as we can on everything that

7 we present.

8 I want to reiterate a point that I think

9 I have made maybe a couple of times, but that is

10 that regardless of what the information on the

11 screen in our preliminary analysis appears to

12 suggest, DOE hasn't made any decisions on any of

13 this yet. We don't have a position that we have

14 already predetermined or anything to that effect.

15 So I just want to make sure that that's

16 understood. I mean, we still have a ways to go

17 here. We still have more analysis to present. And

18 as I said earlier, we consider all of these

19 factors in deciding what would be economically

20 justified and technologically feasible and all of

21 that, all of those factors that we have to

22 consider. We don't weight any one of them over
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1 another. They are all important. Employment

2 impacts, all of that.

3 So it all matters. We are going to

4 consider all of that stuff. So with that

5 considered, we want to make sure that we're making

6 a decision on the basis of good information. So

7 anywhere where you suspect that an assumption that

8 we've made or data that we have used is wrong, as

9 you have been doing all along, is -- has issues

10 with it, we want to know that as early as

11 possible. And you've been telling us, and we do

12 really appreciate that.

13 And I've gotten a couple of questions

14 about whether you can submit comments and new

15 information in the interim periods between these

16 meetings. Absolutely. We hope that you would. We

17 want to be able to incorporate as much feedback as

18 you're able to provide us. And we've gotten some

19 new data. There was an effort to get new data

20 since we've been in this meeting. We really

21 appreciate that. That's very helpful. That will

22 help us refine our analysis and give you a better
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1 product on which to base your decisions, too. So,

2 I mean, I think that's just the general point I

3 wanted to make.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.

5 MR. ADIN: Unless there are any other

6 questions specifically for DOE, I think that's it.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: As a way of bringing us

8 toward closure, I would welcome any additional

9 comments from members before we close. Mark

10 Handzel?

11 MR. HANDZEL: You know, I think it was a

12 great two days. Again, I think, you know, we made

13 a lot of progress. But, you know, I guess this

14 issue about, you know, being able to pass along

15 higher costs is one that is obviously a key one

16 for the manufacturers.

17 And, you know, I think we need to know

18 how we are going to go forward with that issue,

19 because obviously we don't feel we are going to be

20 able to pass along the costs, you know, that are

21 being suggested that we can. So where do we go

22 from here? Because I think that is a big gap.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you.

2 Appreciate that.

3 Other closing remarks?

4 (No response.)

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Nothing additional. Well,

6 thanks to the analytical team. They did a great

7 job as always, and thanks to all of you for your

8 participation. You really added a lot to this

9 meeting, and I wish you all safe travels. And

10 we'll see you -- what did I say the dates were?

11 We will be meeting back here on May 28th and 29th.

12 Thanks to all. Safe travels.

13 (Whereupon, at 2:38 p.m., the

14 Commercial and Industrial

15 Pumps Working Group was

16 concluded.)

17

18

19

20

21

22
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1 CERTIFICATE OF COURT REPORTER 

2 

3 I, NATASHA THOMAS, the reporter before whom the 

4 foregoing hearing was taken, do hereby certify 

5 that the witness whose testimony appears in the 

6 foregoing deposition was duly sworn by me; that 

7 the testimony of said witness was recorded by me 

8 and thereafter reduced to typewriting under my 

9 direction; that said deposition is a true record 

10 of the testimony given by said witness; that I am 

11 neither counsel for, related to, nor employed by 

12 any of the parties to the action in which this 

13 deposition was taken; and, further, that I am not 

r 4 a re l a tive or employee o f any counsel or attorney 

15 employed by the parties hereto, nor financially or 

16 otherwise interested in the outcome of this 

17 action. 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

NATASHA THOMAS 

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243 
Capital Reporting Company 

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1 CERTIFICATE OF TRANSCRIBER 

2 

3 I, SARAH VEACH, do hereby certify that this 

4 transcript was prepared from audio to the best of 

5 my ability. 

6 I am neither counsel for, nor party to this 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

action nor 

action. 

am I interested in the outcome of this 

SARAH VEACH 

(866) 448 - DEPO 

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 

244 
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1,100 69:6

1,500 153:6

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215:20 237:21

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160:14

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116:18 117:20

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233:6

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Commercial and Industrial Pumps Working Group 04-30-2014

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113:16 121:16

123:22 126:5

130:16 132:7

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179:7

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194:17,19 206:6

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127:2 193:8

202:5 204:16

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92:6 106:10

110:21 132:7

134:12,13

136:19 139:19

144:15 148:21

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160:2 161:12

164:19 167:14

172:2 173:9

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198:21 202:1

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210:15 212:3

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Capital Reporting Company

Commercial and Industrial Pumps Working Group 04-30-2014

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211:10 212:1

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175:15

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141:9,11 143:13

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B

background

153:17

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196:17 197:2

balances 179:1

balancing 193:14

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band 137:8

bar 196:14

Barbour 2:8 6:11

125:11

126:12,15

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162:4 177:15

208:7 241:1

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102:6 104:18

123:15 126:10

140:3 148:7

159:1 164:18

169:19 181:9

189:5 198:5

215:19 216:2,10

223:20 238:7,14

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234:11

bases 85:5

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113:1,6,20

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93:11 140:9

198:20 222:22

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begin 10:14 86:17

144:14 199:20

beginning 97:9

198:3 212:11

218:5,9

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31:19 92:16

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Beloit 2:16 6:16

31:3

benefit 19:12

26:16 29:17 48:4

57:3 61:6 63:13

71:4,11 73:4
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Commercial and Industrial Pumps Working Group 04-30-2014

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132:9 174:7,21

186:1 192:5

benefits 199:15,16

BEP 18:5 19:15

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63:10,18

64:2,3,4,21,22

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81:19 82:5

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145:16

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31:17 48:18 49:3

66:9 132:6 217:7

230:11 244:4

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121:7 122:18

130:18

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29:3 32:8

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202:6 217:6

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100:10 106:22

110:6 119:21

121:8 137:7

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149:19 155:9

170:10 188:9

193:21 203:22

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176:11 177:5

179:15

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233:16

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127:20

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112:20

113:10,14

123:11,12

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49:22 50:6 51:2

59:20 62:22

70:10 85:22

134:21 174:8

175:8 182:9

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bound 93:3 174:19

184:12

boundaries 170:4

bowl 225:22 226:5

227:12

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box 15:21 139:4,6

177:14 178:5

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boxes 13:3 176:11

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110:15 148:8

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78:10 130:18

131:20 132:13

bring 97:10 192:5

214:22 236:13

bringing 196:13

231:5 241:7

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226:7

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233:4

BROOKMAN 2:2

5:2 7:2,11 8:1

9:12 11:7,19

23:3 24:3,13,21

25:4,8 27:11,17

29:10,15 30:2

31:12,19 33:7,10

35:1,4

36:3,12,14 37:1

38:17 39:11

40:6,14 43:13

44:12 46:1,11

49:18 54:9 55:3

57:13 61:20

63:8,15 64:9,14

65:3 66:11 67:21

69:18 70:21

71:20 72:14

74:12 75:17

77:7,9

78:5,12,16,18,20

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86:16 87:6,21

88:6,9,16,22

89:6 90:8

91:3,20 93:1

94:2,10
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Commercial and Industrial Pumps Working Group 04-30-2014

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98:2,10,18,21

99:10 100:3,6

103:16 104:18

105:13,19 106:7

107:10,12,15

108:1,5,11 109:9

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111:5,8,11

112:11,14

113:8,12 114:9

116:16 117:15

118:13,22

120:19 122:2,4

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126:5,14,16,18

127:3,6,16,19

128:8,13,15,21

129:6 130:7

141:12,21

142:4,7 149:16

150:21

151:16,19 152:6

153:18 155:16

157:3 158:1

159:14 160:20

162:20 165:6

168:8 170:9

171:7 180:4

181:12 183:5

186:12 187:8

188:6,22

191:12,15 193:4

194:10 197:8

199:1 201:16

203:10,18 204:9

205:6,17

208:8,12,14

209:11,14 210:9

211:1,5 212:4

216:1,6 218:2

219:2 220:8

222:1,16 223:15

225:16 229:1

233:20

235:19,22 236:6

241:4,7 242:1,5

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108:7 228:16

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building 1:11 5:6

67:12

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117:1

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bullet 123:21

124:17

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bunch 210:15,16

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76:15,22 124:19

179:17 234:17

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189:9 221:9

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137:5,13 144:18

161:22 182:21

190:22 191:11

220:15 223:8

231:21 232:5

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161:5 162:18

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C

C-838 30:8

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calculate 15:8,16

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56:10,13 70:1

74:18 77:19,20

89:19 120:1

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calculated

14:14,17,18

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105:9,16 114:1

174:17 175:11

177:16

calculating 51:16

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26:17 42:12

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113:17

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116:2,12,16,20,2

1 117:2,4 118:6

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134:22 137:20

138:1 140:22

146:2,10 147:3

150:12

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74:11 89:11

95:19 134:6

238:2

calculator

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116:9,11

117:1,6,13

125:14,17

231:17 236:3

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capital 1:20

145:11

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223:15

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9:11

32:3,7,12,15

50:18 84:4,5,21

85:21 86:3

88:4,7,10,17

89:1 106:16

180:11,18,21

182:8,12 183:2

capture 93:21

112:7 138:22

captured 26:17

37:14 48:5 60:11

114:13 130:12

208:4

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82:3 97:13

114:10 193:9

car 34:12

care 29:2 119:3

135:11 140:7

146:7

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189:19 197:5

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carries 122:14

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carrying 154:21

223:5,10 224:3,6

case 2:12 6:7 10:5
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41:10 50:15

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58:1 61:8 66:14

71:12 72:20

89:8,16

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129:2 134:19

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223:17 224:11

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catch 21:15

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caucus 5:11 9:21

11:8 27:14

100:12 216:5

caucuses 129:18

cautionary 200:5

CCMS 119:16,22

121:10

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center 72:21

certain 10:19

102:18 136:7,8

159:9 173:11

181:18 216:13

218:20

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31:1,3 35:9 38:7

43:8 46:17

67:17,18,19

87:19 96:7

97:15,19 119:12

120:22 160:15

165:2 198:13

199:19 207:9

229:13

CERTIFICATE

243:1 244:1

certification 21:12

73:19 118:10

119:2 124:20

certify 42:11 75:3

243:4 244:3

certifying 21:5

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challenge 178:19

200:15 221:13

chance 112:4

206:18

change 45:13

71:2,17,18 80:10

105:2,8 109:21

133:11 136:5,9

143:19 149:4

160:10,15

166:20 171:19

173:5,8

174:14,15,16

175:7 182:9

186:3 204:2,6

224:21 233:12

234:8

changed 15:18

53:15,16 105:7

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80:12 148:22

175:10 182:5,15

188:18 212:2

219:12 222:13

234:15

changing 81:12

224:10 228:12

channels 91:8

125:7

characteristics

24:18 136:11

characterize

179:19

characterized

147:20

CHARLES 2:11

3:12

Charlie 9:11

32:2,3 84:4

86:6,18 87:21

94:18 101:22

102:12 103:14

106:14 107:20

180:10,11 182:8

216:9 230:7

chart 35:14 36:10

cheap 182:20

cheapest

137:5,9,14

182:18,19

check 92:3,17,19

153:18 201:5

238:2

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136:22 137:16

161:4 174:1

181:17 182:22

221:14

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226:11

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182:18

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97:11 101:21

103:19 106:7,17

141:14 150:21

151:16 165:6

168:9 169:11

183:5 191:12,19

200:2 201:16

216:6,15 222:1,3

227:9 228:16

232:16 234:6

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111:14

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80:21

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71:22 167:19

clarifications 68:1

clarifies 82:9

clarify 43:14 62:13

69:16 70:20 71:1

98:7 99:4 101:20

129:19 170:8

193:7
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clarifying 114:17

clarity 129:22

class 27:8 150:8

151:7 162:6

171:14 231:1

classes 173:21

cleaned 223:2

clear 52:15,22

53:1 72:7,18

79:9 88:2,7 89:5

93:2 94:9 101:18

107:7 111:5

123:21 125:8,14

126:21 176:18

178:11 185:20

187:7,9

clearer 89:18

clearly 13:10

42:20 200:2

204:21

close 31:22 84:7

87:22 111:20

235:18 241:9

close-coupled

152:19 153:7

154:18

closed 238:12

closely 98:20

109:3 131:22

closer 178:15

closing 80:13

239:2 242:3

closure 236:13

241:8

coated 226:14,16

coating

226:19,20,21

coatings 227:7

colleagues 163:9

collect 122:22

158:16

column 72:21

columns 162:17

combination 136:4

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115:20

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comes 20:4 136:19

149:18 176:5

179:15

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38:6 78:9 84:6

88:14 90:6 94:1

96:20 100:16

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95:19 154:12,15

168:20 170:14

216:19

comment 32:20

66:13 87:21 98:3

99:12 106:8

109:13 113:22

116:3,15 128:18

194:13 202:20

209:9 210:18

220:5

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120:21 180:8

191:16 240:14

241:9

commercial 1:7

5:4 89:1 120:2

145:8 147:15

148:15 157:20

158:19 242:14

commercial/

industrial

148:13

commercialization

84:14,16 86:22

commitment

98:12

committed 130:9

Committee 1:6

216:3

common 111:19

commonly 42:15

Communicate

13:14

communication

9:20

companies 95:3,7

195:22 232:2

Company 1:20

2:10 6:3,4,5,6

comparable 15:4

compare 14:2

15:10,15 18:2

55:13 82:11

104:15,17

compared 171:20

224:11

compares 55:8,10

59:14

comparing 55:6,7

comparison

16:11,15,16

24:15 25:11 61:1

71:18 82:14 84:1

124:9 136:10

compelling 59:12

compete 178:9

196:2

competition

189:21

192:4,7,17

competitor 196:10

complaints 225:14

complete 130:14

131:11,13 147:3

complex 18:15

42:20

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119:2,17 121:1

156:3,6

compliant 17:2,17

18:11,18,21

19:18 20:3 21:7

37:20 51:8 52:5

55:9 56:22 58:19

60:8,17

63:3,14,16 66:18

72:1,4,10 73:14

complicated

133:13 146:4

175:22

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77:2 120:15

components

13:6,11

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compromise 210:8

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236:7

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199:18

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58:4,5 59:1,2,19

63:11,17,18

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223:21

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13:8,11 15:20

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124:12

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129:1

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92:8,9 97:3

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52:13

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171:11

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214:21

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78:10 87:2

214:19 235:10

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237:10

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54:4 122:7 132:9

138:13 194:16

197:13

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201:14

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construct 12:12

14:11 16:22 22:4

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92:2,10 100:12

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105:12 126:1

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148:11 149:19

153:10 154:12

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consulted 10:5

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Consulting 7:20

consumer

13:15,17 28:15

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consumes 58:7,12

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65:10 135:1

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context 25:5,6

continue 31:4

99:17 196:14

235:11,13

236:22 238:20

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191:7 201:6

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93:13

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Capital Reporting Company

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190:20 193:6

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35:16

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164:3

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216:8 231:8

239:4,9 240:13

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139:2,16 148:7

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171:2 173:22

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customer 27:21

66:10 77:16

134:15

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105:18 106:6

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80:2 104:9

109:15 111:22

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16:17,18 17:4

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61:15,17,18

71:15 90:19

91:21 95:1,17

97:6 110:4,5

113:6 114:7

115:9,10 121:6

124:11 132:21

135:17 136:22

143:4,10,11,17

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154:9,10,16

159:4 170:10

184:8 190:16

197:16,18,19,20

198:6 199:8

201:2 205:4

218:12 221:18

227:2 229:22

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199:5

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223:7,21

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dig 225:4

digest 9:18
Capital Reporting Company

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31:17,20 46:2

directing 99:16

120:21

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96:21 97:6 102:9

106:9 109:10

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243:9

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75:5

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219:6

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133:16,17

135:5,20

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14:20 22:2 27:5

38:8 43:8 91:5

108:20 114:11

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62:21 63:5

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206:17

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11:3,6 12:3,8,14

23:13 24:5 26:19

29:11 30:6

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106:19 117:18

125:20 130:19

132:12 180:1

182:3 193:18

212:8 237:5

238:11

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25:2 41:8 67:6

97:22 107:2

118:8 123:18

215:19

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177:19

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91:7,17 134:1

138:7 139:11

140:10,14 141:8

146:12,15

150:22 151:6

156:14

161:19,20 162:4

170:5,11

distributions

132:14,21

154:10

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44:15 45:12,21

48:2 52:4 91:10

113:20 117:18

118:10 120:21

121:7 122:18

123:13,15

127:22 189:2

208:18 209:21

239:12 241:6

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184:22

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done 45:22 64:20

88:19 96:22

97:1,16 105:9

106:11 110:21

111:9 120:11

189:15 194:9

217:3 228:10

doodled 103:22

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152:22 153:11

164:11

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164:15

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211:13

225:16,17 227:1

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dramatically

65:21

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33:19 34:12

38:10,14 40:17

41:2,13 42:16

43:17,20,21 45:5

48:12 60:2,22

61:7 66:20

123:22 172:6

179:10 207:4,7

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181:20 213:19

214:1,22 215:4

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180:15

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181:14 182:1

212:10,13,16,22

213:20 214:12

215:6,7,10,13
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dropping 181:18

214:18 215:15

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eager 67:22 180:9

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61:20,22

63:7,9,16

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239:19

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143:14

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230:19 234:12

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37:10

38:10,15,20,21

39:1,6,14,16

40:18

41:2,5,20,22

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166:20 174:19

175:2,16

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179:1,9,14

184:4,21

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186:20 190:18

194:4,14

207:7,20 208:19

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216:17 226:2

232:19,21

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61:6 72:16 73:5

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162:1,3,19

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112:17 114:2

127:4 135:10

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225:14

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243:11,15

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99:9 111:21

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148:14 150:12

155:17,19

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134:12 144:9

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178:20 181:15

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Commercial and Industrial Pumps Working Group 04-30-2014

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Capital Reporting Company

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illustrate 140:16

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209:20

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134:16,17 136:3

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34:6,9,19 36:18

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190:14 193:17

196:12

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108:20 109:7

124:20 132:3

137:21 153:21

163:20 164:3

165:18 186:3

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223:22 226:21

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Capital Reporting Company

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31:12 34:8,17,18

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47:13,15,17,19

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94:12 97:13

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102:10,22

103:2,9 106:2

110:13,14

114:21 119:7

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130:1 132:6

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158:8 160:9

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167:18

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186:6,9 187:2

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189:11 190:2

192:19,21

193:21 194:7,9

199:8,9,10,22

200:18 202:20

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205:3 206:2,21

207:5,9 209:8

216:1 217:9

218:19,22

221:18 222:13

223:7 224:16,19

225:1,2

226:10,16 227:6

233:3,15 234:4,5

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16:5 17:5 24:21

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129:20 140:19

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211:11 220:5

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jam 61:18

Jay 3:16 7:22

Jeff 2:6 7:13 20:7

Jeremiah 130:11

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7:17 40:16

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54:9 55:11,19

58:9 59:3 62:2

117:15 232:16

job 94:21 102:3

168:11 189:15

242:7

jobs 192:1,6

195:9,12,16

197:1 201:12,15

July 8:17,18

237:13

jumping 224:1

June 8:11,12,13

127:21 237:13

justifiable 197:14

justified 205:5

208:1 239:20

justifies 204:22

justify 174:11

K

Kate 141:15

Katie 2:14 7:2,3

10:9 105:19,20

108:7 131:17

139:9 154:14

157:4 164:5

165:8 170:14

183:18 184:2

189:14 191:17

196:18 202:9,17

205:2,10,20

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keen 196:21

key 204:5 241:15

keyboard 130:12

kicked 144:17

kidding 195:17

killer 169:16

kilowatt 157:15

158:20 159:9

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214:11

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119:1,14,16,19

121:7 122:17,18

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L/D 155:1

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label 13:22 27:20

28:16 38:1 83:2

91:9,10,14

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120:15

122:13,19

123:5,7 124:15

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124:7

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101:7,13,15

112:22 121:13

labeling/

marketing

124:13 125:6

labels 91:15

Laboratory 2:14

4:6,8

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landed 125:22

large 132:20

134:2,3 172:21

214:21 224:12

larger 64:22

139:13 223:9

last 16:4 20:12

67:3 94:11

100:10,18 105:5

108:6 113:15,22

162:17 175:21

192:14 201:11

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lasts 156:7,12

late 5:10 237:2

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98:17 116:15

221:14
Capital Reporting Company

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latest 104:18

Laughter 11:22

170:21 236:5

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7:3,9

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230:15,16

232:18 233:6

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learned 215:11

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43:6

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left-hand 32:12

143:10

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47:18 48:16,22

71:12 75:3 151:7

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225:8 231:9

let's 5:19 23:17

24:18 25:9 30:9

31:6 47:15

48:6,12 51:12

59:18,19

112:11,14

130:1,7 131:14

134:7 140:11

142:4,7 181:12

187:7,9 189:17

193:4 200:17

211:1,5,6,20

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18:19 21:4 22:4

24:6 26:6 31:21

37:16 44:4,7

58:16 102:19

104:5 105:17

110:4,8 123:13

133:2 134:18

136:6,9,13 138:9

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234:22 235:1

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95:10 101:10

135:18 138:7

139:18 148:22

198:17 206:10

229:22 233:5

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115:11 153:21

lifecycle 10:10

108:13 131:17

132:22 135:13

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172:10,14,16

174:14

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117:17

121:11,21

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152:7 153:15

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19:10,13 21:6,10

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26:2,16,18 27:1

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34:1,15 35:10,14

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Capital Reporting Company

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48:14 51:14

56:11,13,14,17

58:8 61:16,17

64:5,13 65:1

73:1 75:22

76:3,9

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80:9,16 81:7,17

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114:18,20

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148:10 154:21

160:7 206:22

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loading 115:9

loads 21:1,9 58:6

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local 196:10

lock 85:17 87:20

locking 93:21

logarithmic

138:21

logical 16:14 61:11

logically 62:12,15

202:15

logistical 87:7

logistically 127:15

logistics

101:7,13,15

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157:14 179:14

183:9 195:18

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21:8,16,21 22:18

23:4,6,8,13,14,2

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51:15,17,20

73:3,5 76:3,9

97:16 116:18

123:22 124:1,18

192:1 197:1

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21:6,9 22:12

25:15 26:5,7

37:15,17 49:22

50:3,7,19,21

51:1,4,16 52:2

56:6 66:3 67:8

73:8 75:22

115:3,8 116:22

lost 223:19 231:6

lot 9:17 10:22 12:2

23:13 41:12

42:13 43:3

49:4,10 51:20

78:5 82:10

83:7,8 93:12

106:10 116:3

117:20 120:9,18

121:1 129:21

146:3,7 159:3,5

166:17 168:12

170:15,16 173:8

185:7 190:8

191:2 195:16

207:6 220:17

227:14 229:11

230:14 236:15

237:20 239:3

241:13 242:8

lots 12:15 220:13

223:7,9,22

loud 19:1

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38:17 40:6 46:11

65:5 66:12 67:21

68:3 70:21

74:12,13 75:19

91:3 125:4

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202:15

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212:22 216:16

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lower 18:13 38:6

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55:17 65:21

149:21

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lowest-efficiency

144:16

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10:3,21 15:7

23:3 27:11,12

42:8 52:4 77:7

78:21 79:5 84:13

87:6 92:5 96:6

98:5 118:13

122:4,12 189:8

197:8 199:3

201:20 203:11

204:9 217:16

218:2 236:10

lumped 173:19

lunch 88:12

129:10,11 130:2

131:14 210:10

M

machine 234:5

magnitude 48:7

71:10

main 17:19 87:12

207:19

mainframe 232:15

mainly 44:14

maintenance

135:3,16 148:20

major 37:5

97:18,21 128:16

129:18 148:12

189:3 195:3

majority 163:9

226:6 228:5,9

management

147:12

manipulating

146:6

manner 66:4

124:2

manual 34:12

manufactured

194:22

manufacturer

11:8 20:22 41:21

44:16 72:7,22

73:3 85:2 115:18

122:16 124:15

146:17 164:11

174:16 177:10

189:5,11 190:5

214:20

manufacturers

9:20 21:5 24:10

27:14 41:13

43:10 54:11 72:2

76:2,12,13 77:22
Capital Reporting Company

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78:3 81:20 89:17

101:5 114:8

137:22

192:10,16

195:3,5 198:14

201:12

212:12,21

213:17,22

214:13,16

215:12,13,20

219:15,18

222:18

226:1,11,21

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41:9

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100:11 199:9,15

216:4

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208:14 233:20

241:9

markers 176:9

market 40:10

61:12,13 75:16

79:14 91:18

93:15 104:1

106:3 108:9

124:16 132:5,11

136:21 137:13

139:12 144:17

161:18

162:14,18

167:15 168:2,5

170:1 174:20

177:22

178:16,22 179:2

184:1,14 185:4

186:22 190:11

193:9,16 194:3

195:4 221:3

228:3,5 236:17

marketplace 44:17

49:13 89:3

169:15 184:4

marking 30:12

101:6,8,18

markup 184:8

markups 134:13

181:8

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matches 49:12

matching 207:1,7

material 9:5,18

187:16 234:4

materials 109:7

188:10 233:1

234:8,21

Math 110:20

mathematical

183:12

matter 71:7 92:1

135:16 162:15

186:9

matters 197:12

240:3

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Mauer 3:7 6:19

54:10,16,18

55:2,4,11,16

58:9,12,15,18

59:3,5,8 60:15

61:4 62:7,10

117:16 118:19

120:8 232:16

233:11

max 230:5

maximum 149:22

219:17

may 9:2 43:9

45:13 46:13

49:19 61:1 63:12

70:5 76:5,6 97:5

103:19 106:1

108:13 118:2,10

120:15,22

121:9,11,13,20

122:14 126:17

127:19,21

139:12 147:19

154:9 160:14

164:3 168:20

176:22 184:22

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205:6,13 209:18

212:4 216:14

217:3,13,22

220:21 221:8,14

222:21 232:3

234:20 235:2,3

237:16 238:5

242:11

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13:16,20 36:15

38:18 39:3

40:7,11 41:1

46:14 70:22

76:3,12 84:9,18

85:18 88:11

91:22 93:21 94:4

97:1 99:4

100:16,21

103:20 106:4

115:4,13 118:7

119:19 120:6

123:3 125:7

128:4 129:10

141:21 154:1

195:8

203:3,15,22

204:5,12,13

206:15 220:15

222:12 239:9

mcmanis 3:9 7:14

McManis 7:14

mean 32:10 35:19

41:14 45:18

49:11 52:20 53:8

59:10 62:11

68:14 70:5,14

73:12 81:21 83:7

84:15 85:1 86:21

87:3,15 88:13,19

98:6,8 103:1

104:13,16

106:17

119:1,7,16

121:10 122:7

126:1 127:12

154:7,17 156:19

163:13 166:7

167:2,13 169:14

184:21 185:11

186:16 188:19

189:11 192:11

197:21 198:3,6

199:11 201:7,19

202:6 203:16

208:21 209:2

216:19 218:3

232:4,8 239:16

241:2

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133:21 174:1,10

meant 64:13 134:3

140:16 180:4

225:18

measurable 12:21

measure 20:22

42:14 51:2 52:1

measured 14:22

25:18 50:21 51:1
Capital Reporting Company

Commercial and Industrial Pumps Working Group 04-30-2014

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measures 16:1

measuring 17:16

50:4

mechanical 149:9

153:20 227:3

mechanically

155:4

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167:14

meet 27:9 29:8

89:20 91:1 119:5

131:1,4,5,7

190:7 194:2

195:19 216:14

238:21

meeting 5:3,16

8:4,6,12,17,19,2

0 76:12 86:10

87:20 91:6 92:4

97:5 100:5 105:5

110:17 114:12

120:4 124:5,8

130:9,13,14,20,2

2 191:10 208:9

236:13

237:2,11,16

240:20 242:9,11

meetings 18:8

113:16 131:8

150:4 208:9

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meets 58:13

190:22

Meg 4:3 6:21

36:4,14 49:18

99:12 100:6

168:8

MEI 15:21,22

104:3,4,15,16

109:15 110:1,21

111:21 112:7,10

124:9 143:15

member 93:4 97:3

99:7

members 5:12

11:13,15 68:3

87:3 89:10 92:11

93:4 96:19 98:22

100:15 101:2

108:2 210:17

216:3 238:1,8

241:9

memorialize

129:13

mention 114:17

mentioned 67:5

134:14 146:9

157:18 170:14

173:14

mentioning 224:2

met 137:15

method 23:10 43:2

63:14 64:19

74:17 75:2

83:17,22 112:10

114:1 115:1

122:19 123:16

137:4 138:1

methodology

161:2 204:1

methods 115:13

220:18

metric 9:22 11:5

12:3,12,19 13:1

14:2,6,10,12

15:2,15 22:4

25:5 27:7 28:15

33:18 36:1 37:10

38:4,6,16 39:21

46:9 47:14,15

49:16 60:11

61:18 68:3 82:13

89:18 99:18

110:2 112:6

120:10 124:8,10

126:1 128:5

metrics 10:3,9

16:18 25:21

28:12 61:15

89:19 129:15

203:13

237:19,22

238:10

microphone

112:15 151:17

middle 157:8

mike 220:8

milling 57:2

million 103:4

min 53:5,22

mind 39:3 48:20

200:5

minds 81:20 84:10

89:5 94:14

mine 231:19

minimally 17:2,17

18:11,18,21

19:17 20:3 21:7

37:20 51:7 52:5

55:9 56:21

60:7,17 61:2

63:3,16 66:17

71:22 72:4,10

73:14 75:10

minimize 197:1

minimum 14:3

20:3 47:16,18

48:3 58:14,19

66:16 162:10

219:17 220:15

minus 38:5 219:18

minutes 70:6

85:19 236:12

mislead 30:17

misleading 31:10

missed 49:19 78:6

missing 9:10

mistaken 77:12

mistakes 40:9

misunderstood

123:4

mix 193:20

model 14:19 27:8

28:3 113:2,20

124:11 137:17

142:16 144:8

145:5,9 164:21

165:16 167:6,7

169:13 170:15

171:10 174:4

176:4,5 181:4,18

216:10 224:15

225:8

modeled 221:2

modeling 106:20

159:6 172:4

215:18

231:12,22

models 13:7

15:9,10,15 74:8

113:6 137:1

139:18,22 140:1

142:16 169:2,12

176:20,21

177:13,17

181:19 182:1

185:8 213:15

214:11 215:1,3,4

225:9

modest 188:19

modify 148:2
Capital Reporting Company

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149:15 182:22

moment 9:10

135:19 138:13

171:10 172:12

188:21 209:16

moment's 196:11

money 161:4

184:12,13

219:20,21

Monte 133:20

months 132:10

moot 211:18

morning 5:3,8,9

8:5 10:1,7 12:3

125:21

129:14,17

130:3,8 131:10

237:18

morrow 75:11

mostly 132:1

160:7 173:3

motor 2:10 13:4,9

17:14

18:7,9,10,11,21

20:19,22 21:6,12

22:12 24:9,10

25:15 26:5,7,8

29:4,8,18,19

30:5,17,18

31:9,17,18 34:3

37:17 41:17

42:16,22

43:1,17,20 45:4

47:19

48:2,3,5,10,13

50:16

51:8,9,12,19,22

52:20 60:21 61:6

63:17,19

64:5,16,17,20

65:1,2,15

66:3,18,20

72:1,4,9,10,15,1

7,20

73:1,2,5,7,16,22

74:1,4,5,15

75:4,5

76:2,5,6,11 77:2

82:13 90:17

95:22 97:15,16

113:4,5

114:18,21

115:9,17,20,22

116:6,18 117:9

123:22 124:17

154:20 192:9

motors 6:16 24:17

25:16 66:17

67:17 74:22 75:8

111:15 116:4

146:10,12

197:20 207:8

move 5:17 10:20

67:8 68:2 92:13

99:8 125:4

143:17 155:15

163:11 172:15

177:13 178:5

moved 127:21

144:1

moving 159:17

160:17 202:6

MPC 219:12

MSP 184:18

multi 227:11,18

multiple 199:6

208:10,12

multi-stage 227:14

228:1

municipal 145:8

147:17 157:22

161:14

myself 112:21

212:20 216:9

231:16 232:11

N

nail 211:21

nameplate 27:20

73:1,15 77:17,18

79:15 80:4 81:8

83:1

Natasha 1:19

243:3,21

national 2:14 4:6,8

7:4,6,10 157:18

Natural 4:3

Navigant 3:14 4:5

7:8,19 169:10

NDA 224:7

necessarily 38:10

201:22 204:13

222:20

necessary 21:11

100:15

neck 216:20

NEEA 74:13

negative 133:5

135:10

negatively 173:17

174:9

negotiate 201:21

236:22

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