### Capital Reporting Company Meeting 05-27-2010

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 1

PUBLIC MEETING FOR THE POLYCHLORINATED BIPHENYLS

Reassessment of Use Authorizations Advance Notice of Proposed Rulemaking

Date: May 27, 2010 Time: 1:00 p.m. - 2:15 p.m. Location: EPA -- East 1201 Constitution Avenue, NW Washington, D.C.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 2 1 MS. HENRY: I think we'll get started here. 2 Welcome everyone. My name is Tala Henry. 3 I'm the acting deputy director of the National Program 4 Chemicals Division here at EPA. 5 I'm joined today by Lynn Vendinello. She's 6 the branch chief for the Fibers and Organics Branch, 7 and she's been running all these public meetings. This 8 is our fourth public meeting for the purpose to go over 9 EPA's reassessments of the current authorizations for 10 PCBs and distribution in commerce. 11 We are, I'll let you know, considering adding 12 some additional public meetings, so if you care to let 13 us know your thoughts on that, we'd be welcome to hear 14 them. As you more than likely all know, we issued an 15 advance Notice of Proposed Rulemaking on April 7th, 16 2010, which is to initiate the Agency's reassessment of 17 the PCBs authorizations that are currently on the 18 books. 19 The purpose of this meeting today, therefore, 20 is to hear your thoughts, get your input, take comments 21 on the various questions and approaches that are 22 proposed in that advance notice for proposed

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 3 1 rulemaking. Again, this was all published in the April 2 7th Federal Register notice. 3 So again, we thank you for joining us. We 4 look forward and much appreciate any comments and data 5 input that you have to offer. Certainly today, there's 6 an opportunity to provide those to us verbally, but we 7 also encourage strongly that you submit your input also 8 in writing to the docket. 9 I have written in my notes the whole docket 10 number, but I don't think I need to read that off, do 11 I? I'm sure it's in the information outside. So 12 please, put it in writing as well. That will give us 13 much firmer ground to be able to contemplate these 14 comments in the future. 15 Do we need to say that we're recording the 16 comments as well, so that we can prepare a transcript 17 of the meeting? 18 As far as logistic issues go today, we have 19 time until 5:00 p.m. to take your input and comments. 20 We're going to start off with a presentation of giving 21 an overview of the ANPR, and then proceed to taking 22 public presentations and comments. There will be a 10-

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 4 1 minute break around 3:00 if this goes on that long. 2 Right now, we have four speakers signed up to speak, so 3 it may not go that long. It just depends. 4 Again, if you haven't signed in, please do. 5 And if you want to speak, you need to go out and sign 6 up to do so. And then the really important stuff; as 7 far as restrooms, you go out to this way and the 8 restrooms are on either hallway. 9 Anyway, we do ask that in your presentation, 10 you try to limit to 10 minutes. However, like I said, 11 there's four speakers signed up and we have ample time. 12 So if you have to fit in a couple extra, I think that, 13 that would be fine. So again, I'll thank you all for 14 coming and we really do appreciate your input and your 15 comments. And I'll turn it over to Lynn to provide you 16 an overview of the ANPR. 17 MS. VENDINELLO: Well, also, right after I 18 give my presentation, I'll take any clarifying 19 questions. And then after all the speakers are done, we 20 can also have some additional time for clarifying 21 questions. 22 Okay. So what I'm going to talk briefly

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 5 1 about today is a little bit -- some of this will be 2 definitely background for you. And for those of you 3 who have come to more than one of our public meetings, 4 it'll be repetitive. I apologize for that. But I'd 5 like to go through the basics so you better understand 6 our intent in this advance notice of proposed 7 rulemaking. 8 So I'll be covering what are PCBs. What were 9 they used for? What are they still being used for? 10 What are the health effects from PCBs? How are we 11 doing this rulemaking; what's our authority? What is 12 the standard for removing a use authorization? What 13 are the objectives of the rulemaking? And importantly, 14 what information does EPA seek in the rulemaking? And 15 what is the timetable? 16 As you know, PCBs are a group of 209 17 different chemical compounds called congeners, and PCB 18 commercial formulations contain mixtures of around 50 19 different congeners. Approximately 1.4 billion pounds 20 of PCBs were produced in the US between 1929 and 1977, 21 and of that, our data showed that possibly half were 22 released into the environment.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 6 1 PCBs were important in industrial 2 applications because they do not decompose over time. 3 They are heat resistant, provide elasticity to 4 plastics, and have low electrical conductivity. 5 What were they used for? Many different 6 things, and we keep finding out about places where 7 they're showing up that we didn't know about before. 8 But primarily for electrical fluids, dielectric fluid, 9 hydraulic fluid, heat transfer fluid, cutting oils, 10 lubricants, pump oils, they've shown up, although they 11 weren't authorized. Carbonless copy paper, 12 plasticizers, caulks and sealants, paints, coatings, 13 rubber, inks and pigments. So as you can see, a lot of 14 the uses were not authorized originally, which makes it 15 an interesting situation. 16 What are the human health effects from PCBs? 17 They are both acute and chronic. The most common acute 18 are irritation, burning of the eyes and chloracne. And 19 then, long-term exposure can result in liver disorders, 20 reproductive effects, developmental effects, and 21 probably cancer. PCBs also have numerous well22 documented health effects including cancer for animals.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 7 1 So how are we conducting this rulemaking 2 today? When TSCA was passed, and the PCB section was 3 included, which is Section 6E of TSCA of 1976, it 4 generally banned the manufacture, processing, 5 distribution in commerce and use of PCBs after 1978, 6 but provided for certain exceptions based on an EPA 7 finding that there was no unreasonable risk of injury 8 to health or the environment. 9 Most of the exceptions that we have today 10 take the form of use authorizations, and each of these 11 include specific conditions, such as location 12 restrictions, repair restrictions, and concentration 13 limits. Section 6(e)(2)(b) of TSCA permits EPA to 14 authorize by rule, the manufacturing, processing, 15 distribution in commerce, and use of PCBs in a non16 totally enclosed manner if these activities will not 17 present an unreasonable risk of injury to health or the 18 environment. 19 EPA, through rulemaking, determined that 20 certain non-totally enclosed PCB use activities did not 21 present an unreasonable risk, and proposed to authorize 22 these use activities for a period of five years after

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 8 1 the effective date of the final rule. So, here we are 2 30 years later. 3 At that time, EPA was to examine the need for 4 continuing these authorizations, which is what we're 5 doing now. And the standard under which we will be 6 operating is that in order to remove an existing use 7 authorization, EPA just needs to be less than arbitrary 8 and capricious. 9 The burden to remove a use authorization is 10 much less than the unreasonable risk burden to 11 establish a use authorization. And this was laid out 12 in the United States Court of Appeals 5th Circuit 13 ruling of 14 2000. 15 What is the objective of the rulemaking? We, 16 at this point, it being 2010, feel the need to reassess 17 the current authorizations for certain PCB uses to 18 determine, still today, whether they do or do not pose 19 an unreasonable risk to human health and the 20 environment. And in order to do this, to meet this 21 objective, this advance notice of proposed rulemaking 22 solicits information from the public on several, or you

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 9 1 might say, many different topics. 2 Here's an example. We would like information 3 on the population characteristics for equipment 4 currently in use, equipment management practices, 5 equipment failure rates and resultant insurance costs, 6 the removal and replacement costs for equipment being 7 brought offline -- for example, the impact of severe 8 spills, weather events and vandalism -- disposal and 9 metal recycling capacity and cost, the environmental 10 impacts of alternatives to PCBs. And sort of a new and 11 growing interest is the types and concentrations for 12 non-liquid PCBs. 13 What's our timetable? As of today, although 14 this could change, we've gotten, I think, 29 comments 15 asking us to extend the comment period. We are taking 16 those seriously into consideration but as of today, 17 July 6th is the end of the comment period. And 18 everyone is encouraged to submit their comments to 19 www.regulations.gov. I'm not going to read out the 20 docket number for that. And then, for the rest of this 21 calendar year, our plan is to just review and analyze 22 those comments.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 10 1 That's it. Any clarifying questions? Or 2 else we'll proceed to our first speaker. 3 AUDIENCE MEMBER: (Inaudible) 4 MS. VENDINELLO: Yes. Is that your question, 5 too? Okay. Yes? 6 She wanted to know if my presentation is 7 available, and it's in the docket. 8 AUDIENCE MEMBER: (Inaudible) 9 MS. VENDINELLO: Well, there's data in EPA's 10 IRIS database on the risk or hazard characterization of 11 PCBs. We also have information on our website, too; 12 just www.epa.gov/PCBs. And that will link you to other 13 places for human health information, including a link 14 to the IRIS information. 15 AUDIENCE MEMBER: (Inaudible) 16 MS. VENDINELLO: Well, as opposed to like, 17 electric fluid? It would be like PCBs that are used in 18 caulk or paints. 19 Okay then. We'll proceed along. 20 MR. SCHRIEBER: Thank you, Lynn. 21 Our first speaker after Lynn is Lawrence 22 Robinson, president of the Color Pigments Manufacturers

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 11 1 Association, Incorporated. 2 MR. ROBINSON: Good afternoon. As was just 3 noted, I'm Larry Robinson, president of the Color 4 Pigments Manufacturers Association. CPMA is an 5 industry trade association representing color pigment 6 companies in Canada, Mexico and the U.S. And we 7 represent small, medium and large pigment manufacturers 8 throughout North America, accounting for the bulk of 9 the production of color pigments in those three 10 countries. 11 We plan to submit detailed comments to the 12 Agency in July. Today, I would like briefly to 13 summarize our position with regard to the EPA notice. 14 The ANPR proposes to eliminate excluded 15 products and process authorization from the PCB 16 regulations. This would be accomplished by lowering 17 the existing concentration limit for PCBs and excluded 18 products and processes from 50 parts per million as a 19 maximum, and 25 parts per million as an average, to a 20 proposed level of less than 1 part per million. The 21 elimination of the excluded products and processes rule 22 will impact three important pigment groups in commerce.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 12 1 Diarylide pigments, primarily yellow in 2 color, phthalocyanine pigments, primarily blue and 3 green, and certain monoazo pigments, primarily red, 4 would be impacted by the proposal as set forth in the 5 ANPR. These three classes of organic pigments have been 6 extensively tested for toxicity over a period of 40 7 years and are not toxic or bioaccumulative. 8 As of now, and for the foreseeable future, 9 these three pigment classes could not meet the proposed 10 standard of less than 1 PPM, and would likely require 11 either a special authorization or removal from the 12 marketplace. A removal of these pigments from the 13 marketplace would jeopardize most colored printing, 14 including four-color printing processes, the vast 15 majority of all yellow, blue, and green paint and 16 plastic formulations, and a large number of red 17 pigments used primarily in paints, plastics, and 18 specialized inks. The technology does not now exist to 19 eliminate PCBs in all organic pigments to a level below 20 1 PPM. 21 Due to very significant competitive pressure 22 from international pigment, ink, paint, and plastic

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 13 1 manufacturers, there are far fewer manufacturers 2 remaining in the United States than existed 30 years 3 ago when the PCB rules were enacted by EPA. 4 The remaining manufacturers do not have the 5 economic or technological resources to develop new 6 pigment formulations in a manner similar to that used 7 30 years ago, to reduce inadvertent PCBs in pigments to 8 levels consistently below 50 parts per million. 9 Because it represents a sound scientific consensus of 10 opinion, the 50-PPM concentration limit for PCBs has 11 evolved into a uniform national standard, although 12 there are minor variations in the definition of what 13 constitutes a PCB among the industrialized nations, 14 which actually results in other jurisdictions 15 eliminating some PCB congeners, which are included for 16 EPA purposes. 17 Any significant change in this limit in the 18 United States will dramatically increase costs to U.S. 19 manufacturers at the expense of foreign 20 producers of pigments and the colored products and 21 articles made with pigments. 22 Importers of colored products and articles

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 14 1 made outside of the U.S. will be able to comply with 2 lower limits using dilution of the pigments in 3 downstream products. Importers of colored products 4 could also comply with lower PCB limits by using the 5 exclusion for articles in commerce which are not 6 regulated by EPA as chemicals. These strategies for 7 compliance will not be available to U.S. manufacturers. 8 Within the ANPR and the record developed for 9 the ANPR, we find no information which substantiates a 10 benefit to health or the environment that would justify 11 the extreme costs to the U.S. economy, which would 12 result from the elimination of the excluded products 13 and processes authorization for pigments. 14 Beyond organic pigments, a lowering of the 15 inadvertent PCB concentration level to less than 1 PPM 16 will potentially impact thousands of products which 17 contain organic chemicals and chlorine. In 1984, EPA 18 recognized 200 chemical processes that potentially may 19 inadvertently generate PCBs. Therefore, for the 20 foregoing reasons, CPMA does not support the proposal 21 contained in the ANPR to lower the authorized 22 concentration for excluded products and processes from

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 15 1 50 PPM to less than 1 PPM. 2 Should you have any questions, I would be 3 pleased to try to answer them, but will certainly 4 incorporate our answers into our written comments that 5 will be provided to you in early July. Thank you. 6 Are there any questions? Okay. Fine. Thank 7 you all very much. 8 I'm sorry. There is a question. I 9 apologize. 10 AUDIENCE MEMBER: (Inaudible) 11 MR. LAWRENCE: Right. 12 AUDIENCE MEMBER: (Inaudible) 13 MR. LAWRENCE: That's right. 14 I can give you more detailed comments, and 15 I'll incorporate them into our written comments. But 16 basically, 30 years ago when there were much higher 17 levels than 50, we were able to bring it down to 50. 18 At this point, we don't know if it can come down to 19 less than 50 at any cost. 20 In other words, we don't have the manpower 21 necessarily and the science to bring it lower. So 22 there's really no dollar amount that can be placed on

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 16 1 that, to the best of my knowledge. But I will try to 2 put more detail into the thing. 3 AUDIENCE MEMBER: I had a question. 4 MR. LAWRENCE: Yes, sir? 5 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Since they are inadvertent, 6 do you know where they come from or why they're in the 7 pigments to begin with? 8 MR. LAWRENCE: I do not. Again, we'll try to 9 touch on that. Because of the chemicals used, they are 10 generated. 11 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Okay. So they're part of 12 the stream of the composition of the pigments -- 13 MR. LAWRENCE: That's right. 14 AUDIENCE MEMBER: -- as they occur in nature, 15 or you don't know? 16 MR. LAWRENCE: I don't know. I'm not the 17 right one to answer that. 18 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Okay. Thanks. 19 MR. LAWRENCE: But we will include an answer. 20 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Thanks. 21 MR. LAWRENCE: Others? Okay. Again, thank 22 you very much.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 17 1 MR. SCHREIBER: Thank you. Yes. If you have 2 any questions, you know, from the audience, let's use 3 this portable microphone if we could. 4 Our next speaker is Jim Roewer, executive 5 director, USWAG. 6 MR. ROEWER: Okay. That's good. Good 7 afternoon. My name is Jim Roewer. I'm the executive 8 director of the Utilities Solid Waste Activities Group, 9 or USWAG. We are a trade association of over 110 10 individual electric and gas utilities, electric 11 companies, and energy associations involved in power 12 generation, transmission, and distribution. 13 I appreciate the opportunity to address some 14 issues of concern related to the risk from PCBs as well 15 as the financial costs and benefits of a mandated 16 phase-out. USWAG has worked closely with the EPA over 17 the last three decades to help ensure the development 18 of an environmentally protective and cost effective PCB 19 regulatory program. 20 During that time, we have worked with our 21 members and EPA to promote the determined and 22 continuing efforts to identify and retire PCB-

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 18 1 containing equipment prior to the end of the 2 equipment's useful life. In fact, during the last 10 3 years, we've accelerated our work towards this goal 4 through participation in multi-industry and 5 international initiatives. These efforts are already 6 working to help the United States achieve the goals for 7 PCBs that are articulated in the Stockholm Convention 8 on Persistent Organic Pollutants. 9 I want to preface my comments today by 10 reiterating the request that we made, along with, as we 11 learned today, over 2 dozen others for an extension of 12 the comment period. We are working very diligently to 13 gather the information requested by EPA in any advance 14 notice. But a thorough and thoughtful response to 15 EPA's solicitation of comments on such a broad scale 16 will require more than the 90 days specified in the 17 Federal Register notice. 18 I respectfully request that EPA let the 19 public know as soon as possible as to whether an 20 extension will be granted. Granting an extension at 21 the eleventh hour will not allow us to gather the 22 information to address the large number of questions

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 19 1 EPA is asking. Since there's no legal or statutory 2 deadline under which the Agency is acting, we urge EPA 3 to grant the extension immediately so that the public 4 has adequate time to gather and provide EPA the 5 information it is requesting. In addition, we would 6 support the additional public meeting that EPA is 7 contemplating. 8 It's important to recognize the significant 9 progress that EPA and the regulated community has 10 already made in phasing out PCB-containing electrical 11 equipment. As EPA correctly observes in the advance 12 notice, the population of PCB-containing equipment is 13 continually decreasing and will never grow or rebound 14 due to the ban on the manufacture that has been in 15 place for more than 30 years. 16 As electrical equipment reaches the end of 17 its useful life and is removed from service for 18 disposal, the volume of PCBs in use continues to 19 decline. PCB- containing electrical equipment is also 20 removed from service through targeted voluntary phase21 down programs of individual utility companies, 22 including those implemented in connection with EPA-

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 20 1 sponsored programs such as the National Partnership for 2 Environmental Priorities. 3 As PCB-containing equipment makes up an ever4 shrinking percentage of the overall inventory of 5 utility-owned electrical equipment, there have also 6 been encouraging findings suggesting that the threat 7 posed by PCBs is not as severe as suspected at the time 8 of TSCA's original ban. Our written comments will 9 address the key studies. It examined and reexamined 10 the health and environmental effects of PCBs. 11 Over the past three decades, numerous studies 12 have failed to find persuasive supporting evidence that 13 the risk to human health from PCBs are any more severe 14 than dermatitis and chloracne; a weight of evidence, 15 evaluation, a potential human cancer risk from exposure 16 to PCBs on studies published since 2003 does not 17 support a causal association for PCBs and human cancer. 18 In reassessing the risk to human health and 19 the environment from PCBs, it is critical that those 20 risks be evaluated using only PCB-specific evidence. 21 The best available science does not support evaluating 22 the risks of PCBs using toxicity equivalency factors

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 21 1 that treat PCBs as if they were dioxins. 2 Our comments on EPA's draft-recommended 3 interim preliminary remediation goals for dioxin in 4 soil demonstrate that toxicity equivalency approach in 5 assessing risk from PCBs is not scientifically valid, 6 and therefore, should not be pursued. We urge EPA to 7 include in the public dockets studies on the health or 8 environmental risks of PCBs, on which EPA relies in 9 reassessing the use authorizations. We also ask the 10 Agency to clearly articulate the criteria it will use 11 to evaluate the quality of these studies. These steps 12 are critical to ensure meaningful public participation 13 in this rulemaking process and to fulfill the Agency's 14 open government initiative. 15 I also want to address the assumption in the 16 advance notice that mandating an accelerated phase-out 17 of PCB-containing equipment will somehow be in the 18 financial interests of the utility industry and the 19 public at large. An across-the-board phase-out, 20 including arbitrary deadlines, will result in 21 significant economic cost, not only to the utility 22 industry, but to electric consumers as well, with

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 22 1 minimal, if any, incremental environmental benefits. 2 EPA's suggestion that this phase-out will prove 3 economically advantageous to utilities is simply not 4 correct. 5 In particular, EPA's suggestion of the cost 6 of disposal for PCB-containing equipment may increase 7 faster than the general cost of inflation. This is 8 speculative and it's not based on any evidence in the 9 record. The Agency has a considerable degree of 10 influence over the future supply and demand, and 11 resultant costs for disposal services, since it is EPA 12 that decides whether and when to grant a disposal 13 permit application. 14 Preliminary conversations that USWAG members 15 have had with representatives of the disposal industry 16 indicate there's little reason to believe that disposal 17 capacity will decrease significantly in the coming 18 years. Existing PCB disposal companies serve a 19 multitude of interests that are not tied solely to 20 PCBs, and their continued viability and related costs 21 for services are not driven by PCBs in the manner 22 suggested by EPA.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 23 1 We do not believe there is cause to be 2 concerned about decreasing disposal services and 3 related increases in disposal costs, and we certainly 4 don't believe that any potential changes in the 5 disposal market, in any way, would justify the costs, 6 worker's safety hazards, and service disruptions that 7 would be associated with a mandatory phase-out. 8 Our members do not agree with the EPA's 9 suggestion that the cost of liability insurance for 10 owners of PCB equipment is likely to increase 11 significantly as the equipment continues to age. Again, 12 our preliminary discussions and information gathered in 13 response to the advance notice indicates that insurance 14 premiums are generally not associated with either the 15 PCB content or the age of electrical equipment. 16 Utilities will incur enormous expenditures if 17 forced to identify all pieces of PCB-containing 18 electrical equipment, and it will replace valuable 19 equipment that is found to be containing regulated 20 levels of PCBs. These costs would be compounded by the 21 cost of replacing non-PCB equipment that is damaged as 22 a result of testing. We do not agree with EPA's theory

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 24 1 that equipment is more likely to fail and result in a 2 release as it ages. 3 We do know that an inventory-wide invasive 4 testing program that would be required to ensure 5 compliance with the contemplated phase-out would lead 6 to a much greater risk of injury to workers and damage 7 to electrical equipment. 8 In short, the costs of the mandated phase-out 9 contemplated in the advance notice would be borne by 10 the industry and the rate-paying public and would 11 outweigh any economic benefits of this phase-out, 12 benefits that we believe would be marginal at best. 13 In closing, I want to reiterate the fact that 14 USWAG shares EPA's goal of removing PCB equipment from 15 service, as shown by our commitment to, and a continued 16 promotion of voluntary phase-down programs within our 17 membership. We believe that remarkable progress has 18 already been made in reducing the risks from PCB19 containing equipment. 20 Through the continued cooperative efforts of 21 EPA and the utility industry, the United States has in 22 fact met its obligations under the Stockholm

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 25 1 Convention. Because the voluntary efforts of USWAGs 2 and others have already proven effective, there's no 3 reason, from either risk or an economic perspective, to 4 pursue an elimination of the existing PCB use 5 authorizations. 6 On behalf of USWAG, I again thank you for the 7 opportunity to participate and we will be submitting 8 comments. 9 MR. SCHREIBER: Thank you. Our next speaker 10 is Lisa S. Beal, director, Environment and Construction 11 Policy, INGAA. 12 MS. BEAL: Good afternoon. INGAA appreciates 13 the opportunity to comment on EPA's advance notice of 14 proposed rulemaking on the reassessment of PCB use 15 authorizations under 40 CFR Part 761. INGAA represents 16 virtually all interstate natural gas pipeline companies 17 operating in the United States. 18 There are approximately 160 pipeline 19 companies in the United States, operating over 300,000 20 miles of pipe. Of this, approximately 200,000 miles of 21 pipe are interstate pipelines. Interstate pipelines 22 transport one of the cleanest burning fossil fuels

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 26 1 available to all segments of the economy. The natural 2 gas industry is a critical part of the solution to our 3 country's growing energy demands. Our comments today 4 will be brief but we certainly intend to submit 5 substantial comments and extensive written comments at 6 a later date. 7 Lubricants containing PCBs were first used in 8 the past by some interstate natural gas pipelines, and 9 PCBs have not been used in the United States since they 10 were banned more than 30 years ago, with the passage of 11 TSCA, Toxic Substances Control Act, in 1976. 12 Shortly thereafter, the U.S. EPA created the 13 Compliance Monitoring Program. Under the program, the 14 presence of PCBs above 50 PPM was detected in certain 15 locations in some pipelines. With the CMP, EPA devised 16 a responsible and effective program to monitor, 17 control, and reduce the remaining PCBs in these 18 interstate pipeline systems. 19 Pursuant to the CMP, participating pipeline 20 companies were required to submit plans for the EPA 21 review and approval, detailing the proposed engineering 22 controls and operating practices to control and reduce

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 27 1 PCBs in the pipeline systems. In 1998, EPA revised the 2 PCB regulations further and the CMP was subsumed under 3 the Mega Rule as a use authorization at 40 CFR, Part 4 761. 5 Use authorizations were granted only after 6 EPA applied a very high standard and determined that 7 the residual presence of PCBs in natural gas pipelines 8 did not present an unreasonable risk of injury to human 9 health or the environment. 10 In this advance notice of proposed 11 rulemaking, significant changes had been proposed in 12 the regulations governing the management of PCBs. 13 These include the elimination of pipeline use 14 authorizations for PCBs less than l part per million by 15 2020 or earlier. INGAA strongly opposes narrowing or 16 eliminating this use authorization, and believes it is 17 not necessary to do so to protect the public health. 18 To require pipelines to remove traces of 19 residual PCBs that may exist from use more than three 20 decades ago or to not allow these pipelines to continue 21 to operate would create disruptions that would 22 irreparably impact the availability and cost of

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 28 1 domestic energy in the United States and potentially 2 result in service disruptions to our customers. 3 Unlike other PCB-containing equipment that 4 EPA may be concerned about, interstate natural gas 5 pipelines are built and maintained for perpetual 6 operation, subject not just to TSCA and other EPA 7 requirements, but also to rigorous inspection, 8 operation, and maintenance requirements established and 9 enforced by the U.S. DOT Pipeline and Hazardous 10 Materials Safety Administration, such as the pipeline 11 integrity management regulations at 49 CFR, Part 192, 12 Subpart 0. 13 14 Because of these regulations, an interstate 15 natural gas transmission line is continually maintained 16 to ensure safe and reliable operation. The proposed 17 changes to the PCB use authorizations fail to consider 18 the impacts on the availability of domestic energy and 19 the economic consequences. 20 Like any commodity, the price of natural gas 21 and the ultimate cost to consumers is largely a 22 function of supply and demand. Disruption of the

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 29 1 ability to transport natural gas through the existing 2 network of pipelines could lead to significant 3 increases in the cost of this vital domestic energy 4 source, particularly to those customers that do not 5 have access to alternative transportation services. 6 Furthermore, the cost to comply with the 7 changes proposed by the EPA would be significant across 8 the natural gas transmission industry as a whole. The 9 increased costs could lead to hardship for U.S. energy 10 consumers, manufacturers, and other industries already 11 struggling in a challenging economy. This could have 12 devastating impacts to those areas of the country 13 nearly crippled by economic setbacks. 14 Since over 95 percent of natural gas used in 15 the United States moves from well to market entirely 16 via pipelines, disruptions in the ability to transport 17 natural gas from producing regions to consuming 18 regions, even temporarily, would have lasting 19 implications that would burden energy providers, 20 industrial users, residential customers, and working 21 families. 22 It is for these reasons that INGAA

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 30 1 respectfully requests that this rulemaking initiative 2 be further evaluated. Any risk to human health or the 3 environment posed by residual traces from past use of 4 PCBs is negligible and adequately addressed by the 5 extensive existing regulations of Part 761. These 6 regulations are more than sufficient to provide any 7 necessary protection for human health and the 8 environment. 9 Accordingly, there does not appear to be a 10 sufficient basis for an arbitrary elimination of use 11 authorizations as proposed in this advance notice. We 12 therefore strongly urge EPA to look at this issue 13 further, to grant an extension of time, at least 90 14 days, to allow the industry to have a meaningful input 15 into this important rulemaking. 16 In response to the question posed earlier, in 17 terms of additional public meetings, we certainly agree 18 and would fully support the establishment and the 19 execution of at least two or three extra public 20 meetings. Thank you very much. 21 MR. SCHREIBER: Let me bring the microphone 22 over to you.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 31 1 Ms. Beal, are you going to entertain 2 questions? Yes? 3 AUDIENCE MEMBER: As I have some tangential 4 experience with your industry, somewhere you said 800 5 million linear miles of pipeline -- 6 MS. BEAL: Three hundred thousand miles of 7 pipelines. 8 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Three hundred thousand. 9 MS. BEAL: Two hundred thousand miles of 10 interstate pipelines. 11 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Okay. Of that, how much do 12 you think is contaminated with PCB? 13 MS. BEAL: I would not make that speculation. 14 I won't say -- 15 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Ten percent? 16 MS. BEAL: -- how much I think. 17 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Okay. 18 MS. BEAL: No. I won't make that 19 speculation. 20 AUDIENCE MEMBER: But the contamination is 21 all internal to the piping, correct? 22 MS. BEAL: The contamination was

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 32 1 characterized through the CMP program. That's how EPA 2 went through the process, and the industry went through 3 the process of characterizing it. And that's the 4 information that I'm working from, that was submitted. 5 AUDIENCE MEMBER: But the PCB in the pipeline 6 is internal? 7 MS. BEAL: Where are the PCBs? 8 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Within the piping. 9 MS. BEAL: The PCBs have been typically found 10 in the lubricants. 11 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Right. 12 MS. BEAL: So the pipeline industry takes a 13 very, very strong approach to looking at managing 14 lubricants. But again, these are some of the issues 15 that we are going to bring up further in our comments. 16 Thank you. 17 MR. SCHREIBER: Thanks again. 18 So one of our speakers, planned speakers, 19 decided not to comment after all, so that is the end of 20 our list of preregistered speakers. 21 So did anyone else want to come up and make a 22 comment? If not, Dr. John Smith might entertain your

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 33 1 questions and answers at this point. 2 John? 3 DR. SMITH: All right. There are some 4 questions that I can answer and other questions that I 5 can't answer. So, in general, but specifically, I 6 can't answer questions like where is EPA going with 7 this. I can't answer questions like, what do the 8 questions mean, what direction are we going in. 9 I should point out that this is an advance 10 notice of proposed rulemaking. EPA has not proposed 11 anything. EPA has suggested directions that it is 12 considering going to, and when we actually finally 13 propose something, we will have the evidence that we 14 used for making those proposals. 15 I should point out someone asked about the 16 health information that we used in the ANPR. In the 17 resource documents, there are references to the IRIS 18 system for PCBs. I think ATSDRs, health assessment, 19 those are resource documents. They are available on 20 regulations.gov in the docket, so you can find those 21 there if you can't find them in another way. 22 Okay. So it's open mic time.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 34 1 MR. MILLER: I have a question regarding PCBs 2 in building materials, specifically the caulking issue, 3 which is causing a lot of projects to be delayed across 4 the country, and in particular, schools. The caulking 5 issue is one thing, the bulk product waste. But what's 6 more problematic to most of the clients that I deal 7 with, is the remediation waste, the brick, the 8 structure, the building. 9 Is there any consideration that's going to be 10 given to sealants or some kind of an encapsulation of 11 particularly building materials, so -- I know we're in 12 this big, green, sustainability weatherization kind of 13 effort throughout the country. And effectively, older 14 buildings have a lot of this PCB caulk in them. 15 DR. SMITH: Lynn, do you want to answer? 16 MS. VENDINELLO: We recognize that, and EPA, 17 our office, is working closely with the Office of 18 Research and Development, which is an arm of EPA. And 19 they are doing some studies, including the potential 20 impacts of using encapsulants. And we just need to 21 know how they work and so forth, because we recognize 22 the issues that you are talking about. And they are

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 35 1 undertaking studies right now in different places 2 around the country to look at the potential impacts of 3 the encapsulants. 4 MR. MILLER: Okay. Any kind of time frame? 5 Because I mean, projects are stopped now, not a year 6 from now. We have new schools being built. Half of 7 them are federally funded. Yeah. Well, the old school 8 is being demo'd to put the new schools on there, and 9 weatherization projects for lots of schools. I mean, 10 this is happening today. 11 MS. VENDINELLO: The administrator promised 12 the ORD research would be completed in about two years, 13 but it does take time. So, yes. 14 DR. SMITH: Sorry. I forgot to ask. If you 15 would please, too, state your name for the record when 16 you ask your question. If you don't mind now, would 17 you please state your name? 18 MR. MILLER: My name is Kevin Miller from 19 (unclear) O'Neill (ph), Connecticut. 20 DR. SMITH: Thanks, Mr. Miller. 21 So anyone else? 22 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Hello. My name is William

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 36 1 Van Scalthwick (ph), and I work at a major university. 2 And the college/university sector does plan to make 3 comments regarding this advanced rulemaking. And we 4 would support the idea of an extension, as we're trying 5 to collect data from universities across the country 6 and make a real contribution to this rulemaking effort. 7 DR. SMITH: Thank you. 8 MR. WILLIAMSON: Roger Williamson. I do not 9 represent my company at this meeting. I represent 10 myself. I do have some questions about the logic the 11 EPA is using behind making more strict regulations 12 concerning PCB with a fairly moderate amount of health13 related data behind it. 14 But when you look at the effect of PCB in the 15 environment and the steadily decreasing amount of PCB 16 in industry, because none has been produced, what was 17 EPA's thrust into identifying and making greater 18 restrictions? 19 I support the fact, what others have promoted 20 here, that we need a much longer public referendum and 21 we need to be able to look at this to be able to answer 22 your questions succinctly because I think that some of

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 37 1 the premise you're using in increasing the regulation 2 is probably not very clear. 3 DR. SMITH: I think I can phrase this 4 succinctly. I hope so. And that is that EPA is 5 required by the statute to make a finding of no 6 unreasonable risk. And we did that in 1978 and since 7 then, for several uses. 8 What we're saying now is we're revisiting 9 that finding, granting relief from the congressional 10 ban. So it doesn't mean necessarily that we will 11 change things. We're proposing -- that we're looking at 12 today rather than 30 years ago. I think if you look at 13 the record from 30 years ago, a lot of the decisions 14 that were based on unreasonable risk, the unreasonable 15 risk was primarily an economic assessment. It was not 16 based on any kind of environmental assessment. So 17 right now, that may be part of the issue, as we will 18 look at the environmental issue because the economics 19 issue/situation might be different. 20 MS. BEAL: Lisa Beal with INGAA again, just 21 to follow up on that train of thought. 22 Is EPA thinking that this is a reassessment

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 38 1 based on human health and environment impacts sans an 2 economic impact? Or, I mean, are the two being looked 3 at together? Or would those be separate assessments? 4 How, I guess, are you reconciling the economics and the 5 environmental impacts in terms of a reassessment? 6 DR. SMITH: I don't know that reconciliation 7 is part of the assessment. When we make a no8 unreasonable risk finding to authorize use, it would 9 include both environmental issues and economic issues. 10 But I think in Lynn's presentation, you heard that 11 we're starting from a ban, and we have proceeded away 12 from that ban based on an evaluation 30 years ago. We 13 may start anew and say, "All right. We're not going to 14 start from 30 years ago. We're going to start from 15 today." And today, what is the economic issue? What 16 is the environmental issue? And so, we need 17 information, detailed information on all of those 18 factors. 19 MS. BEAL: Just to follow up, I'm just not 20 sure about this, my own information. Does TSCA provide 21 any sort of guidelines or guidance on -- many other 22 environmental regulations, you know, have programs that

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 39 1 have very specifics how economics should be considered. 2 Does TSCA have something like that, that you 3 know of? 4 DR. SMITH: Not that I know of. There are 5 general agency guidelines on how to do risk assessments 6 from estimates of releases or environmental 7 concentrations of materials, and you can look at other 8 rulemakings and the dockets of the rulemakings to see 9 how economic assessments have been done historically. 10 I would say that I have heard statements made here that 11 are very sweeping and general, that I think -- I'm a 12 chemist -- are very general, sweeping statements; we 13 believe this and we believe that. 14 What I would suggest to you is what do you 15 base your beliefs on; what fact patterns; what direct 16 information do you have that you're basing your beliefs 17 on, because we will have to do that as well. 18 MS. BISHOP: Hi. I'm Kathy Bishop from 19 Alcoa, and we are planning on submitting comments to 20 this ANPR. But I just had a question. It's actually 21 sort of unrelated to this. I wondered if the Agency is 22 still following -- I remember several years ago, I sat

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 40 1 in a meeting in this room talking about a proposal to 2 change disposal for PCB remediation that weighs less 3 than 50 4 PPM. 5 Is that still active or has that been -- 6 DR. SMITH: If you're referring to what we 7 call the Thompson report? Is that what you mean? 8 There was a hearing here in July of 2006. 9 MS. BISHOP: I don't know. It was an 10 examination of whether -- 11 DR. SMITH: Is that what you mean? 12 MS. BISHOP: Probably. Can you describe what 13 it is, so I can confirm? 14 DR. SMITH: That's what you mean? My 15 knowledge of the Thompson report is that the OMB asked 16 us for information and we sent it to them. And I've 17 not heard anything after we sent the information to 18 them. This is not a disposal rulemaking. 19 MS. BISHOP: No. I know it's not. 20 DR. SMITH: I can say that. 21 MS. BISHOP: But I'm just wondering, because 22 you've moved on to use, are we still considering

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 41 1 disposal? It's a different office. Okay. 2 DR. SMITH: It's a totally different program. 3 Now, this ANPR does address disposal issues. And I 4 tried to make it very clear when we're talking about 5 this, that we are addressing disposal issues, of how 6 they relate back to use. 7 MS. BISHOP: Okay. 8 DR. SMITH: And not how they relate to 9 cleanups, for example. And I think that particular 10 rulemaking was specifically about cleanups. That's 11 managed by another program. And as far as I know, 12 they're not planning to issue an ANPR or an NPR any 13 time in the future. 14 MR. YARNICK: Hi. Tom Yarnick with Exxon 15 Mobil. I got a question about carbonless copy paper. 16 If that is actually still in use, it's likely in long17 term storage, rarely accessed. And I suspect many of 18 the current practitioners know very little about how to 19 identify whether or not the paper has PCB content or 20 not. 21 Does EPA envision any type of a mandatory 22 inventory of those records or even have guidance that

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 42 1 would help practitioners understand how to identify 2 that? 3 DR. SMITH: I would say that anybody who 4 knows information about carbonless copy paper should 5 provide it now. Without that information, it's 6 possible that somebody could say, "Well, there isn't 7 any paper out there; why do we need a use authorization 8 for it?" 9 For many of these things that we're talking 10 about, I would suggest that you provide information 11 justifying your position, rather than what you believe, 12 what you know, and fact patterns that contribute to 13 what you know and what you believe. So, for example, 14 if you don't think anybody has it or doesn't know 15 anything about it, then that doesn't really help us 16 that much. 17 We're trying to find out people who do know 18 about it. And as far as we all know, it hasn't been 19 manufactured for 30 years. What's the average life of 20 paper that's 30 years old now? Where is it? Who has 21 it? What's the likely chance that it will be disposed 22 within 5, 10, or 20 years or stored in some other

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 43 1 medium, if it's important records? 2 MS. CASANO: Pat Casano, GE. Haven't given 3 much thought to carbonless copy paper, but that 4 question makes me think. John, are you talking to 5 other federal agencies about what they have, with paper 6 for example, the National Archives, the Government 7 Printing Office, the General Services Administration? 8 I believe GSA in particular has big warehouses around 9 the country where they have documents stored. And then 10 just more generally, are you talking to the other 11 federal agencies with respect to the other provisions 12 of the ANPR and to see what information you can get 13 from them? 14 DR. SMITH: As far as I know, they are all 15 subject to the regulations. We have not specifically 16 talked to anyone in particular. I know from personal 17 experience that we do archive our paperwork. And it is 18 only kept for a short period of time. So I don't 19 believe that many records are kept for more than five 20 years, as most of those archives. If you want to keep 21 it, you need to keep it yourself and not send it to one 22 of the archives. But I don't know the exact rule

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 44 1 pattern for that. 2 MS. LEITE: My name is Susan Leite, and I'm 3 here on behalf of a large research institution. The 4 question I had actually concerns page 17,654 of the 5 Federal Register, and it was in reference to a 1996 6 survey that had been performed with the waste disposal 7 industry. And there was a reference to, at the time, a 8 potential surplus in capacity for waste storage. 9 I was just wondering whether or not there had 10 been any updated information, in terms of feedback from 11 the waste disposal industry, in terms of changes in 12 permits for accepting PCB waste; and what this means, 13 in terms of a potentially new segment of waste coming 14 from remediation waste, bulk waste that's been removed 15 from building projects? 16 DR. SMITH: I think I didn't hear all of what 17 you said. 18 MS. LEITE: I'm sorry. 19 DR. SMITH: But I think you're talking a lot 20 about disposal? 21 MS. LEITE: Uh-huh. 22 DR. SMITH: And disposal companies?

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 45 1 MS. LEITE: Well, the survey that was 2 conducted in 1996, the waste disposal project. 3 DR. SMITH: In 1996 and it's one of our 4 reference documents? 5 MS. LEITE: Yes. There's actually specific 6 reference, 35 in the Federal Register. 7 DR. SMITH: You said Reference 35? 8 MS. LEITE: It was a personal communication, 9 I believe. 10 DR. SMITH: Oh, that's about the Indian 11 reservation? That's the reference. The reference was 12 about -- 13 MS. LEITE: I'm sorry. 14 DR. SMITH: -- the cost of a cleanup. 15 MS. LEITE: I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm 16 sorry. Reference 3. I had the wrong reference. 17 DR. SMITH: Reference 3? 18 MS. LEITE: There are two sets of references 19 in that paragraph. The first is Reference 35 and the 20 second is Reference 3. The paragraph I'm referring to 21 is the middle column, last paragraph. "In 1996, EPA 22 surveyed the PCB disposal industry and found that there

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 46 1 is a large capacity surplus. However, as the PCB 2 disposal market increasingly becomes smaller, it may be 3 that fewer disposers will find it economical to retain 4 licenses and disposal facilities for the small market, 5 decreasing the number of options," et cetera, et 6 cetera. 7 So essentially, my question is, has there 8 been any updated information from 1996 in terms of what 9 the current cluster of waste disposal facilities looks 10 like, and how this might be affected by a potential new 11 wave of waste streams coming from remediation projects, 12 et cetera? 13 DR. SMITH: The short answer, no. 14 MS. LEITE: Okay. 15 DR. SMITH: I don't know. Again, the folks 16 who are talking to you today are in the use side of the 17 house. So I don't know if the disposal side of the 18 house has done anything like that. I can tell you that 19 from my personal anecdotal observation of approved 20 disposal companies, certainly incinerator numbers have 21 shrunk. 22 MS. LEITE: Okay.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 47 1 DR. SMITH: I would say landfills are 2 shrinking, if they're not shrunken. They're shrinking. 3 And other technologies, perhaps, are increasing. Just 4 as an anecdotal, distant observation, I don't have 5 annual documents that I review to see how many there 6 are or how many there were. 7 Clearly, as I believe the speaker from USWAG 8 said, the amount of waste coming out of use is going 9 down. So EPA is saying, "Well, if the amount of waste 10 is going down, this is becoming more of a specialty 11 waste, will there be an increased supply for such a 12 decreasing market of specialty waste?" And that's what 13 we're asking questions about, do you have information 14 that would contribute to our knowledge of that process. 15 So we are not planning to do a study of 16 facilities or capacity, other than what would be 17 required when we issue -- if we do issue, an NPR, 18 notice of proposed rulemaking, it would have an 19 economic assessment; evaluate some of those 20 possibilities. 21 MS. LEITE: So effectively, you're looking 22 for feedback from that industry in this comment period?

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 48 1 DR. SMITH: Absolutely. 2 MS. LEITE: Okay. 3 DR. SMITH: That's our hope. 4 MS. LEITE: Thank you. 5 AUDIENCE MEMBER: (Inaudible) 6 MR. SCHREIBER: Okay. Thanks for that. So 7 we had a question back here? 8 MR. HENNET: Thank you. Remy Hennet from 9 SSP&A. I am a private consultant. A question. 10 Does EPA believe that the 1-PPM level is 11 actually something that is a birth background in 12 several products or materials that are being used 13 across the board in the country and abroad? For 14 example, in even fat, oil, grease, plasticizers, 15 plastics, and the such - - has the 1 PPM value been 16 judged against those issues at all? And does EPA 17 believe that the 1-PPM background is actually above 18 what those products may contain? Because if it is not, 19 I think EPA has a problem. It will have to give 20 exemptions to all of those kinds of feed stocks, if you 21 will. 22 DR. SMITH: Did everybody hear that? Did you

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 49 1 hear that? 2 Okay. I'll repeat what I think I heard. And 3 that is, is EPA confident that 1 part per million PCBs 4 can be accurately measured in all products? 5 Is that more or less what you said? No? 6 More than that? 7 MR. HENNET: Sorry. I didn't say exactly 8 that, but I think that's all -- 9 DR. SMITH: Stick it right in your mouth. I 10 am having trouble. 11 MR. HENNET: Sorry. 12 DR. SMITH: There you go. Sorry. 13 MR. HENNET: You ask yourself a very good 14 question about that. Can you really detect that 1 PPM 15 on several different types of compounds? But that's a 16 good question and I would appreciate if you could 17 answer that one as well, since you asked it. 18 My question was does EPA believe that feed 19 stocks and particular products that might be for other 20 products, such as grease, oil, fat, plastics, and the 21 such, have a background condition that is below the 1 22 PPM? Because if it is not the case, then you will have

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 50 1 to address that and perhaps make some exceptions for 2 some feed stock to those type of ingredients (unclear) 3 to the economy. And I would like to have your take on 4 that. 5 DR. SMITH: Okay. I think I understand what 6 you're saying. Let me see if I can get your question 7 first. And then I'll get my question. 8 The first question is, we are looking for 9 information about products that contain PCBs different 10 than 50 parts per million, because we have made risk 11 assessments for environmental situations where we have 12 found that there are potential risks at levels as low 13 as 1 part per million. We made an assessment about 14 soap in, I think, 1984, at about 5 parts per million. 15 So the issue is not -- 50 parts per million is not a 16 risk-based number. It could be higher than that. It 17 could be lower than that. 18 But we want folks to get away from thinking 19 about 50 parts per million as a risk-based number. If 20 we have to make an assessment today about what the risk 21 is from continued use of products, then don't think 50 22 parts per million is safe. Think, "Well, what is the

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 51 1 safe level?" And if you said that, well, we don't know 2 what the safe level is; what we know is what levels 3 are, then I would start with those levels and do a risk 4 assessment based on the levels that you know. 5 MR. HENNET: The question is where does the 1 6 PPM come from? 7 DR. SMITH: Where did the 1 PPM come from? 8 It came from the disposal amendments, when we made no 9 unreasonable risk findings about ambient risk from 1 10 part per million in soil. And those risk assessments 11 are available in the docket for that rulemaking. 12 Now, the other question was detection limits 13 that I opposed, that I thought you said. We need 14 information on that as well. Again, if EPA is going to 15 make a no-unreasonable risk finding, that's part of the 16 no-unreasonable risk finding, it's how much does it 17 cost to measure concentrations at levels that you could 18 back- calculate from a risk assessment? 19 So let's assume it's chicken fat. I think 20 you said chicken fat. Chicken fat. Suppose chicken 21 fat is at 5 parts per million and that's the best you 22 can do to measure it. And then, you do a risk

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 52 1 assessment and find that a reasonable endpoint from 2 exposure to chicken fat is at 2 parts per million. 3 Then how much would it cost you to develop a 4 methodology that you could measure chicken fat at 2 5 parts per million, and what increase does that give you 6 in cost versus the increase in risk reduction, or 7 decrease in risk? 8 So that's what I would say, relevant to what 9 I thought my question was, is if you can't measure it, 10 does it make a difference whether you can measure it or 11 not? I'm trying to address the situation where maybe 12 you can't measure at a level that potentially is a 13 significant risk, then we need to look at the costs of 14 being able to measure it at that risk. 15 If it's the other way around, suppose you can 16 detect in water at parts per quadrillion, and the risk 17 level is at part per billion, that's really not an 18 issue then, to me. 19 Any other questions? I guess that's it, 20 then. The meeting's over. 21 MR. SCHRIBER: Thank you all for coming. 22 DR. SMITH: Yes. Thanks for coming. Please

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 53 1 send those comments in. 2 (Whereupon, at 2:10 p.m., the meeting 3 was concluded.) 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2010 54 1 CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER 2 3 I, ROBIN E. BOGGESS, Electronic Reporter, do 4 hereby certify that the foregoing pages were recorded 5 by me electronically and thereafter reduced under my 6 direction to typewritten form; that the foregoing pages 7 are a true record of the proceedings in the above 8 matters; that I am neither counsel for, related to, nor 9 employed by any of the parties to the action in which 10 this testimony is taken; and further, that I am not a 11 relative of or employee of any attorney or counsel 12 employed by the parties hereto, nor financially or 13 otherwise interested in the outcome of this action. 14 15 16 _________________________ 17 ROBIN E. BOGGESS 18 Electronic Reporter 19 20 21 22

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© 2010 22:3 affected 46:10 afternoon 11:2 17:7 25:12 against 48:16 age 23:11,15 agencies 43:5,11 agency11:12 19:2 21:10 22:9 39:5,21 Agency's 2:16 21:13 ages 24:2 ago 13:3,7 15:16 26:10 27:20 37:12,13 38:12,14 39:22 Alcoa 39:19 allow 18:21 27:20 30:14 already 18:5 19:10 24:18 25:2 29:10 alternative 29:5 alternatives 9:10 am48:9 49:10 54:8,10 ambient51:9 amendments 51:8 America11:8 among13:13 amount15:22 36:12,15 47:8,9 ample 4:11 analyze 9:21 anecdotal 46:19 47:4 anew 38:13 animals 6:22 annual 47:5 ANPR 3:21 4:16 11:14 12:5 14:8,9,21 33:16 39:20 41:3,12 43:12 answer 15:3 16:17,19 33:4,5,6,7 34:15 36:21 46:13 49:17 answers 15:4 33:1 anybody 42:3,14 anyone 32:21 35:21 43:16 anything 33:11 40:17 42:15 46:18 Anyway 4:9 apologize 5:4 15:9 Appeals 8:12 appear 30:9 application 22:13 applications 6:2 applied 27:6 appreciate 3:4 4:14 17:13 49:16 appreciates 25:12 approach 21:4 32:13 approaches 2:21 approval 26:21 approved 46:19 approximately 5:19 25:18,20 April 2:15 3:1 arbitrary8:7 21:20 30:10 archive 43:17 archives 43:6,20,22 areas 29:12 arm34:18 articles 13:21,22 14:5 articulate 21:10 articulated 18:7 assessing 21:5 assessment33:18 37:15,16 38:7 47:19 50:13,20 51:4,18 52:1 assessments 38:3 39:5,9 50:11 51:10 associated 23:7,14 association 11:1,4,5 17:9 20:17 associations 17:11 assume 51:19 assumption 21:15 ATSDRs 33:18 attorney54:11 audience 10:3,8,15 15:10,12 16:3,5,11,14,18, 20 17:2 31:3,8,11,15,17,

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© 2010 11:3,5,9 12:2 colored 12:13 13:20,22 14:3 column 45:21 coming4:14 22:17 44:13 46:11 47:8 52:21,22 comment9:15,17 18:12 25:13 32:19,22 47:22 comments 2:20 3:4,14,16,19,22 4:15 9:14,18,22 11:11 15:4,14,15 18:9,15 20:8 21:2 25:8 26:3,5 32:15 36:3 39:19 53:1 commerce2:10 7:5,15 11:22 14:5 commercial5:18 commitment 24:15 commodity 28:20 common 6:17 communication 45:8 community 19:9 companies 11:6 17:11 19:21 22:18 25:16,19 26:20 44:22 46:20 company36:9 competitive12:21 completed 35:12 compliance 14:7 24:5 26:13 comply14:1,4 29:6 composition 16:12 compounded 23:20 compounds 5:17 49:15 concentration 7:12 11:17 13:10 14:15,22 concentrations 9:11 39:7 51:17 concern 17:14 concerned 23:2 28:4 concerning 36:12 concerns 44:4 concluded 53:3 condition 49:21 conditions 7:11 conducted 45:2 conducting 7:1 conductivity 6:4 confident49:3 confirm 40:13 congeners 5:17,19 13:15 congressional 37:9 Connecticut 35:19 connection 19:22 consensus 13:9 consequences 28:19 consider 28:17

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© 2010 36:5 43:9 48:13 country's 26:3 couple 4:12 Court8:12 covering 5:8 CPMA 11:4 14:20 create27:21 created 26:12 crippled 29:13 criteria21:10 critical20:19 21:12 26:2 current2:9 8:17 41:18 46:9 currently2:17 9:4 customers 28:2 29:4,20 cutting 6:9 D D.C 1:16 damage 24:6 damaged 23:21 data 3:4 5:21 10:9 36:5,13 database 10:10 date 1:12 8:1 26:6 days 18:16 30:14 deadline 19:2 deadlines 21:20 deal 34:6 decades 17:17 20:11 27:20 decided 32:19 decides 22:12 decisions 37:13 decline 19:19 decompose 6:2 decrease 22:17 52:7 decreasing 19:13 23:2 36:15 46:5 47:12 definitely5:2 definition 13:12 degree 22:9 delayed 34:3 demand 22:10 28:22 demands 26:3 demo'd 35:8 demonstrate21:4 depends 4:3 deputy 2:3 dermatitis 20:14 describe 40:12 detail 16:2 detailed 11:11 15:14 38:17 detailing 26:21 detect49:14 52:16 detected 26:14 detection 51:12 determine8:18 determined 7:19 17:21 27:6 devastating 29:12 develop 13:5 52:3 developed 14:8 development 17:17 34:18 developmental 6:20 devised 26:15 Diarylide 12:1 dielectric 6:8 difference 52:10 different5:17,19 6:5 9:1 35:1 37:19 41:1,2 49:15 50:9 diligently18:12 dilution 14:2 dioxin 21:3 dioxins 21:1 direct39:15 direction 33:8 54:6 directions 33:11 director2:3 17:5,8 25:10 discussions 23:12 disorders 6:19 disposal 9:8 19:18 22:6,11,12,15,16 ,18 23:2,3,5 40:2,18 41:1,3,5 44:6,11,20,22 45:2,22 46:2,4,9,17,20 51:8 disposed 42:21 disposers 46:3 Disruption 28:22 disruptions 23:6 27:21 28:2 29:16 distant 47:4 distribution 2:10 7:5,15 17:12 Division 2:4 docket3:8,9 9:20 10:7 33:20 51:11 dockets 21:7 39:8 documented 6:22 documents 33:17,19 43:9 45:4 47:5 dollar 15:22 domestic28:1,18 29:3 done 4:19 39:9 46:18 DOT 28:9 downstream14:3 dozen 18:11 Dr32:22 33:3 34:15 35:14,20 36:7 37:3 38:6 39:4 40:6,11,14,20 41:2,8 42:3 43:14 44:16,19,22 45:3,7,10,14,17 46:13,15 47:1 48:1,3,22 49:9,12 50:5 51:7 52:22draftrecommended 21:2 dramatically

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© 2010 13:18 driven 22:21 due 12:21 19:14 during 17:20 18:2 E earlier27:15 30:16 early15:5 East1:14 economic13:5 21:21 24:11 25:3 28:19 29:13 37:15 38:2,9,15 39:9 47:19 economical46:3 economically22:3 economics 37:18 38:4 39:1 economy14:11 26:1 29:11 50:3 effect 36:14 effective 8:1 17:18 25:2 26:16 effectively 34:13 47:21 effects 5:10 6:16,20,22 20:10 effort 34:13 36:6 efforts 17:22 18:5 24:20 25:1 either4:8 12:11 23:14 25:3 elasticity6:3 electric10:17 17:10 21:22 electrical6:4,8 19:10,16,19 20:5 23:15,18 24:7 Electronic 54:3,18 electronically 54:5 eleventh 18:21 eliminate 11:14 12:19 eliminating 13:15 27:16 elimination 11:21 14:12 25:4 27:13 30:10 else 10:2 32:21 35:21 employed 54:9,12 employee54:11 enacted 13:3 encapsulants 34:20 35:3 encapsulation 34:10 enclosed 7:16,20 encourage 3:7 encouraged 9:18 encouraging 20:6 endpoint52:1 energy17:11 26:3 28:1,18 29:3,9,19 enforced 28:9 engineering 26:21 enormous 23:16 ensure 17:17 21:12 24:4 28:16 entertain 31:1 32:22 entirely29:15 environment5:22 7:8,18 8:20 14:10 20:19 25:10 27:9 30:3,8 36:15 38:1 environmental9:9 20:2,10 21:8 22:1 37:16,18 38:5,9,16,22 39:6 50:11 environmentally 17:18 envision 41:21 EPA1:14 2:4 5:14 7:6,13,19 8:3,7 11:13 13:3,16 14:6,17 17:16,21 18:13,18 19:1,2,4,6,9,11,2 2 21:6,8 22:11,22 24:21 26:12,15,20 27:1,6 28:4,6 29:7 30:12 32:1 33:6,10,11 34:16,18 36:11 37:4,22 41:21 45:21 47:9 48:10,16,19 49:3,18 51:14 EPA's 2:9 10:9 18:15 21:2 22:2,5 23:8,22 24:14 25:13 36:17 equipment 9:3,4,5,6 18:1 19:11,12,16,19

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© 2010 examined 20:9 example 9:2,7 41:9 42:13 43:6 48:14 exceptions 7:6,9 50:1 excluded 11:14,17,21 14:12,22 exclusion 14:5 execution 30:19 executive 17:4,7 exemptions 48:20 exist12:18 27:19 existed 13:2 existing 8:6 11:17 22:18 25:4 29:1 30:5 expenditures 23:16 expense 13:19 experience 31:4 43:17 exposure 6:19 20:15 52:2 extend 9:15 extension 18:11,20 19:3 30:13 36:4 extensive 26:5 30:5 extensively 12:6 extra4:12 30:19 extreme 14:11 Exxon 41:14 eyes 6:18 F facilities 46:4,9 47:16 fact18:2 24:13,22 36:19 39:15 42:12 factors 20:22 38:18 fail 24:1 28:17 failed 20:12 failure 9:5 fairly 36:12 families 29:21 faster 22:7 fat 48:14 49:20 51:19,20,21 52:2,4 federal 3:2 18:17 43:5,11 44:5 45:6 federally 35:7 feed 48:20 49:18 50:2 feedback44:10 47:22 feel8:16 fewer 13:1 46:3 Fibers 2:6 final 8:1 finally33:12 financial17:15 21:18 financially 54:12 finding 6:6 7:7 37:5,9 38:8 51:15,16

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© 2010 38:17,20 39:16 40:16,17 42:4,5,10 43:12 44:10 46:8 47:13 50:9 51:14 INGAA 25:11,12,15 27:15 29:22 37:20 ingredients 50:2 initiate 2:16 initiative 21:14 30:1 initiatives 18:5 injury 7:7,17 24:6 27:8 ink12:22 inks 6:13 12:18 input 2:20 3:5,7,19 4:14 30:14 inspection 28:7 institution 44:3 insurance 9:5 23:9,13 integrity28:11 intend 26:4 intent 5:6 interest9:11 interested 54:13 interesting 6:15 interests 21:18 22:19 interim 21:3 internal 31:21 32:6 international 12:22 18:5 interstate 25:16,21 26:8,18 28:4,14 31:10 invasive 24:3 inventory 20:4 41:22 inventory-wide 24:3 involved 17:11 IRIS 10:10,14 33:17 irreparably 27:22 irritation 6:18 isn't 42:6 issue 30:12 34:2,5 37:17,18 38:15,16 41:12 47:17 50:15 52:18 issue/situation 37:19 issued 2:14 issues 3:18 17:14 32:14 34:22 38:9 41:3,5 48:16 it'll 5:4 it's 3:11 10:7 19:8 22:8 33:22 39:20 40:19 41:1,2,16 42:5 43:1 45:3 51:16,19 52:15 I've 40:16 J jeopardize 12:13 Jim 17:4,7 John 32:22 33:2 43:4 joined 2:5 joining 3:3 judged 48:16 July 9:17 11:12 15:5 40:8 jurisdictions 13:14 justify 14:10 23:5 justifying 42:11 K Kathy39:18 Kevin 35:18 key20:9 kinds 48:20 knowledge 16:1 40:15 47:14 L laid 8:11 landfills 47:1 large 11:7 12:16 18:22 21:19 44:3 46:1 largely28:21 Larry11:3 last17:17 18:2 45:21 lasting 29:18 later8:2 26:6 Lawrence 10:21 15:11,13 16:4,8,13,16,19, 21 lead 24:5 29:2,9

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### Capital Reporting Company Meeting 05-27-2010 Page 14

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### Capital Reporting Company Meeting 05-27-2010 Page 15

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### Capital Reporting Company Meeting 05-27-2010 Page 17

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