p. 1 

# OAR Box 1802 Prepped by Charmelle Mathews



### Document

Number: 

# 44 ) IV-E-3

9 Docket Number: 

# A-90-3 7

Printed 11/4/200811:57:59 AM

Sheet 44 of 117P. 2

MEETING SUMMAR

Y EPA/UAR

G MEETIN G NE W SOURC

E REVIE W REFOR

M September

14, 1999 Th e meetin g wa s hel d a

t th e office s of

EPA , N.C . Mutua

l Building , 41 1 W . Chapel Hil l Street , Durham , Nort

h Carolina . Th

e meetin g bega

n a t approximately 1:0

0 pman d close d a t approximately 3:00 pm . Attache d i s alis t o f attendees . Joh n Seit z welcomed th e participants . He sai d tha t EP A wa s reviewin g th e industry' s NS R refor mproposal s seriously . H

e als o sai d tha

t EP A wa s no t prepare d to issu e anothe

r proposa l i n October , bu t

tha t Bo b Perciasep e want s t o resolv e matter s quickly . H e mentione d tha t ther e wer e thre e proposals , i.e. , the basi c refor mproposal , th e PA

L grou p proposa l and th e UAR G proposal , and tha

t he understoo d tha

t thes e wer e no t competing proposals . H e als o sai d tha t today' s meetin g wil l b e docketed . Bil l Harnet

t asked if th e industr

y participant s ha

d receive d EPA' s question s regardin g th e UARG proposal , t o which Henr y Nicke l replie d yes . Mr . Harnet t sai d tha t EP A want s t o discus s ho w th e UAR

G proposa l addresse s thos e questions . Henr y Nicke l expresse d appreciatio n fo r Mr . Seitz' s comment s and reiterate d UARG' s commitmen

t t o th e refor mprocess . Mr . Nicke l indicate d tha t ther e wer e tw o element s to th e UAR G proposal ; one , th e basi c NS R change s fo r whic h al l o

f industr y includin g utilitie s wa s makin g asingula

r proposal , an

d two , th e "backstop " progra mtha t involve s clarificatio n i n th e curren t progra man d i s simila r t o wha t th e EP A call s a s "sector " approach . He sai d tha t UARG wil l respon d to EPA' s question s i n writin g by th e en

d of September . Whe

n aske d by Mr . Seitz , Mr . Nicke l clarifie d tha

t th e utilitie s wer

e workin g togethe

r wit h th e comple

x manufacturer s o n th e basi c refor

mproposal . Mr . Harnet

t explaine d tha

t whil e th e NS R refor

mpackag e wil l cove

r al l industry , th e "sector " approac h i s a

n optiona l pat h tha t individua l companie s coul d choose . H e aske d fo r clarificatio n tha

t th e UAR G proposa l would appl

y to al l companie s wit

h no optio n fo

r companie s tha t di d no t lik e it . Mr . Nicke l explained tha t becaus e th e regula

r NS R progra

mapplie d onl y t o ne w and modifie d sources , i t wa s no t designe d t o contro l existin g sources . H e furthe r explaine d tha t th e "backstop " progra

mwa s designed to addres s concern s tha t existin g source s ma

y perpetuat e themselves , an

d agreed tha

t i t woul d b e mandator

y fo r al l industry . Ther

e wa s abrie f discussio n o n "sector " approach includin g ho w thi s approach could b e PAL-based . Mr . Harnet t als o sai d tha

t EP A would likel

y maintain som

e for mof regula r NS R trigge

r an d tha t a n approac h simila r to th e UAR

G proposa l could b e considere d unde

r specific circumstances . Wit h respec t t o presumptiv e BACT , Mr . Harnet t asked abou

t ho w muc h lea d time woul d b e ok , i.e. , th e desirabl e lengt h o f tim e betwee n whe n th e presumptiv e BACT i s set an d when th eP. 3

source s com

e int o complianc e wit

h tha t limit . Mr . Nicke l replie d tha t considerin g th e cas e o f AlabamaPower , adequat

e plannin g horizo n woul d b e desirable , an d tha t UARG wa s ope n to EP A proposals . Whe

n asked by Mr . Harnet

t about amor e specific time frame , Mr . Nicke l sai d tha t UARG will discus s i t

further . Joh

n McManu s sai d tha

t th e time fram

e als o depende d on wha t th e initia l limit wa s se t a t an d ho w lon g tha

t limit would b e valid . Mr . Harnet t pointe d out tha t i f th e en d dat e wa s earlie

r tha n th e yea r 2030 , the n ther

e ma y no t b e anee d to chang e th e limit in between becaus e technologie s generally d o not evolv e significantly in ashor t time . (???? ) Jerr

y Golde n sai d tha t source s (units?? ) tha

t ar e th e mos t difficul t t o contro l wil l likel y b e brough t in th e progra

mlate r tha n others , an

d i n cas e o f mid-cours e correctio n wil l present th e toughes t hurdle . Mr . Harnet

t sai d tha t on e of th e ke y component s wa s averaging acros s facilitie s an d trading . He sai d tha

t whil e Bo b Perciasep e wa s receptiv e t o tha t concept , th e OG

C wa s no t receptive , an

d tha t EP A wa s currently reviewin g ho w th e concept will wor k under NSR . H e als o sai d tha t Clas s I are aimpact s an

d Titl e IV aci d rai n issue s need t o b e considered . Mr . Harnet t als o sai d tha

t complianc e wit

h NAAQ S mus t

b e considere d whe

n emission s ar

e increase d to level s higher

tha t th e level s previously modeled . Mr . Nicke l replie d tha t th e ide ao f

ai r qualit y impact s wa s "curious " an

d tha t an y problem s wit

h respec t to ambien t impact s wer

e beyon d NS R an d shoul d no t

influenc e BAC T determinations . H e sai d tha t lon g ter mair qualit y impact s wer

e generally no t

aproblem , an

d th e shor t ter mai r qualit y standard s woul d b e protecte d b y no t increasin g th e hourly emissions . Ther e wa s abrie f

discussio n on ho w t

o addres s Clas s I are a impacts . A questio n wa s raise d a s to ho w frequentl y th e Clas s I problemwa s encountered . Mr . Harnet

t replie d tha

t i t wa s likely to b e mor

e frequen t in th e wester

n Unite d State s becaus e of th e large r numbe r of Clas s I area s a s compare d t o easter n Unite d States . Mr . McManu s argue d tha t th e Clas s I area s wer

e aregiona

l issue , an d tha t the analysi s woul d b e differen t fo r asourc e tha t i s locate d clos e t o aClas s I are aand ha s adirec t impac t a s compare d t o aregiona

l analysis . Whe n aske d by Mr . Harnet

t whethe r th e suggestio n wa s t

o us e ageographi c location-base d analysis , Mr . McManu s replie d ye s an d furthe r sai d tha t i t would no t b e desirabl e t o ti e u p th e tradin g progra

mbase d on Clas s I are aimpacts . Ro b Brubake r explaine d tha

t accordin g t o th e proposal , i f

th e emission s increas e wa s abov e th e maximu mhourl y rate , the n n o tradin g woul d b e allowe d an

d th e uni t woul d g o throug h regula

r NSR . Whe

n asked by Davi d Solomo n whethe r th e tes t wa s apotential-to-potentia l test , Mr . Brubake

r replie d yes . Mr . Solomo n sai d that th e effect s o f apotential-to-potentia

l tes t o n loca l ai r qualit y coul d b e severe , e.g. , i n th e cas e o f a n inoperativ e powe

r plan t tha t wishe s to star

t continuou s full-tim

e operation . Mr . Nicke l acknowledge d tha

t th e concern s regardin g ambien t ai r qualit y impact s nee d t o b e addressed , bu t di d no t think tha t the y ar e aprobleman

d indicate d tha

t the y could b e resolved . Talkin g abou

t regiona l impacts , Mr . Harnet

t said tha t the tradin g mus t

b e unfettere d an

d hav e flexibility . He asked a t wha t point in th e proces s doe s the publi c see and understan d th e implication s fo

r them . He als o aske d i f

ther e wa s an y possibilit

y fo r apubli c review . Mr . Nicke l replie d tha

t th e proposa

l di d no t addres s publi c review , but agreed tha

t ther e mus t b e some criteri atha

t wil l hav e t o b e me

t by th e participatin g sources . Mr . Harnet t indicate d that

th e progra mcoul d wor

k in tw o ways ; one , som

e minimu mcriteri acoul d b e specifie d i n th e rul e



## 2-P. 4

. s. which will hav e t

o b e me t a t th e tim e asourc e opt s int

o th e progra

man d th e EP A coul d serv e a s a n arbiter , an

d two , ther e coul d b e mor

e detaile d up-fron

t questioning . Ther

e wa s abrie f discussio n abou

t ho w th e tradin g woul d work . Mr . Solomon aske d wha

t th e remed y would b e in cas e th e emission s exceede d th e cap . Mr . Harnet

t als o asked ho w complianc e woul d b e evaluated whe n averaging , i.e. , i f

an y emission s increas e would b e attribute d to on e facilit y o r to all facilities . Mr . McManu s replie d tha t thi s wa s adeterrenc e and no t acomplianc e issue . He indicate d tha t Titl e I V woul d b e agoo d model . Whe

n asked b y Mr . Harnet

t if company-wid

e averaging woul d lea

d t o acompan

y cap , Mr . Nicke l replie d tha

t th e detail s o f

acomprehensiv e mandator y progra ma s compare d t o a voluntar y progra mcould b e important . He did not suppor t avoluntar y progra mtha t woul d b e limite d t o individua

l companie s an

d expresse d interes t

i n broade r trading . Mr . Harnet

t explaine d tha t if th e progra mwa s limite d to companie s opting in , th e tradin g wit h non-participatin g companie s woul d b e difficult . Whe n aske d b y Mr . Harnet

t if th e trackin g woul d wor

k in a manne r simila r t o th e Titl e I

V aci d rai n program , Mr . Nicke l agree d tha t th e progra

mshoul d us e mechanism s tha

t ar e alread y in place . Mr . Solomon asked i f

th e progra mwoul d track

change s suc

h tha t i t coul d b e determine d whethe r achang e trigger s NSR , e.g. , increas e i n hourl y emissions . Mr . McManu s replie d tha t i f achang e tha

t trigger s NS R coul d occu

r the n th e industr

y would eithe

r no t mak e tha t chang e or go through NSR . Mr . Solomon asked tha t in cas e o f change s tha

t trigge r NSPS , ho w th e agenc y would kno w abou

t them . Mr . Golde

n replie d tha

t Titl e V require d th e industr y t o repor t tha t information . Mr . Nicke l explaine d tha t i t woul d b e aself-policing progra mlik e th e NSP S program . Mr . Solomon sai d tha t i f NSPS-typ e tes t

wa s use d to trigger

NSR , the n there need s t o b e asafeguar

d to ensur e tha t whe n such achang e occurs , i

t i s reviewe d fo

r NSR-applicability . Mr . Solomon als o reiterate d EPA' s concer n abou t th e us e o f maximu mhourl y emissio n rate s t o determine NS R applicability . Mr . Nicke l understoo d tha t thi s concer

n neede d t o b e addressed , but tha t i t involve d al l industry , no t

jus t utilities . Mr . Harnet

t asked ho w eas y i

t woul d b e t

o establis h th e ag e of

th e existin g units . Mr . McManu s replie d tha

t th e commence-operatio n dat e ca n b e foun d i n th e record . Mr . Solomon asked whethe r th e ag e shoul d b e based on th e permit-issuanc e dat e instead o

f th e commence-operatio n dat

e notin g tha

t som e plant s ma

y hav e ha d lon g constructio n schedules . Mr . Nicke l pointe d ou

t tha t th e constructio n ha

d t o b e completed withi n areasonabl e time otherwis e anew BACT revie w woul d hav e bee n required . Mr . Brubake

r suggeste d t o kee

p thi s matte r simpl e an d avoi d complexities . I n th e contex

t o f optin g in by companies , Mr . Harnet t asked ho w t o define a"company " fo r th e purpos e o

f thi s program . Mr . Nicke l replie d tha t i t wa s har d t o predic t

wha t today' s companie s wil l look

lik e i n 1 0 years , e.g. , companie s ar e bough t an d sold , etc . H e suggeste d tha t ground rule s b e se

t to allo w broade

r tradin g instea

d of establishin g corporat

e identities . 

## X 

# 3P. 5

Mr . Harnet

t aske d ho w th e shutdown s would b e handled , i.e. , whether they woul d b e subtracte d fro

mth e ca p o r whethe r the y would b e used as credit s t o sta y withi n th e caps . Mr . Nicke l replie d tha

t shutdown s could b e use d a s amean s to demonstrate compliance . Givin g th e exampl e of

NO x , Mr . Nicke l replie d tha t unde r a n emissio n rate-base d progra mthere woul d b e n o credi t fo r shutdowns , whil e in acap-and-trad e progra mth e shutdown s woul d b e use d a s credits . Whe

n asked by Mr . Solomon if th e industr

y envisione d usin g a

n emissio n rate-base d program , Mr . Nicke l replie d tha t fo r S0 2 th e rate-base d progra

mwoul d b e desirabl e becaus e i t wa s les s stringen

t an d allow s growth . Mr . McManu s indicate d tha t no t allowin g credit s woul d b e adisincentive . Mr . Solomo n pointe d ou t tha t allowing credit s woul d b e adisincentiv e fo r early shutdowns , i.e. , shutdown s woul d then occu r onl y whe n ther e wa s a n increase , whic h ma

y help avoi d goo d control s o n ne w units . Mr . Harnet

t sai d tha t th e industr

y proposa l ha d le d th e EP A t o think about NSPS-typ e issues . H e indicate d tha

t th e en d tim e o f the program , i.e. , yea

r 2030 , wa s a

n issu e an d tha t a shorte r tim e woul d mea

n n o mid-strea

mchange s to emissio n limits . H e als o sai d tha t there wer e othe r issue s to conside

r suc h a s fue

l switching , ho w t

o calculat e cap s up front , whethe

r there would b e an

y doubl e countin g of

emissio n reduction s require d unde r other program s etc . Mr . Nicke l sai d tha

t h e di d no t

wan t othe r issue s t o dela y thi s process . Ther

e wa s abrie f discussio n about

C0 2 and mercury . Mr . Harnet t requeste d feedbac

k regardin g C0 2 and mercury . Mr . Nicke l expresse d concer n abou t havin g to resolv e C0 2 an

d mercur y issues . Da n Stee n sai d tha t th e definition s of

modificatio n an

d maximu machievabl e hourly emissio n rat

e wer e essential . Mr . Solomon asked if th e potential-to-potentia

l tes t woul d supersed e th e WEPC O test . Mr . Nicke l replie d yes . Mr . Solomon aske d i f th e industr

y stil l needed th e pollutio n contro l projec t (PCP) exclusion . Mr . Nicke l replie d tha t th e industr

y woul d lik e t o keep th e PC P exclusion , e.g. , fo r CO . Mr . Golde

n sai d tha t NO x retrofit s ca

n increas e C O emissions , an

d i t woul d no t

b e desirabl e t

o g o through NS R fo

r CO . Mr . Nicke l sai d tha

t th e industr y woul d als o lik

e t o kee p th e routin e maintenanc e an d repair/replacement

exclusion . However , Mr . Nicke l indicate d tha t th e fue l switching exclusio n ma

y o r ma y no t b e importan

t ove r th e nex t 15-20 years . He stresse d tha t th e hourly potentia

l emissio n tes t

woul d resul t

i n a rea l benefit . Mr . Harnet

t requeste d afeedbac

k fro mUAR G o n th e issue s discussed . H e indicate d tha t Bo b Perciasep e wa s committe d to th e process . He als o indicate d tha t th e complex manufacturer' s grou

p wa s comin g t

o mee t wit h EP A again , an

d sai d tha t mor e discussion s wit

h UAR G wer e als o expected . Mr . Nicke l sai d tha t th e meetin g wa s productive . He indicate d tha t UAR G wil l meet

wit h other companie s next

week , an d wil l respon d t o al l or

mos t o f EPA' s question s by th e end of

September . Mr . Harnet

t thanke d everyon e fo

r coming . Th e meetin g wa s the n adjourned . 

# x



# fP. 6 ATTENDEE S EPA/UAR

G MEETING NE W SOURC

E REVIE W REFOR

M September

14, 1999 Nam e Henry Nicke l Bil l Brownel l Jerr y Golde n Jane t Watt s Richar d Chastai n Gen e Marshal l Berni e Huf

f Barb Gambil l Ro b Brubake r Da n Stee n Michae l Cashi n Joh n McManu s Kri s Knudse n N.N . Dharmaraja n Pau l Baile y Mik e Kenned y Joh n Seit z Bil l Harnet t Kare n Blanchar d Mik e Sewel l Davi d Solomo n Da n DeRoec k Davi d Svendsgaar d Lyn n Hutchinso n Kath y Kaufma n SamNapolitan o Gre g Foot e (vi aphone ) Ann aWoo d (vi aphone ) Mala y Jinda l Valeri e Everett e Affiliatio n Hunto n & William s Hunto n & William s TV A TV A Souther n Co . PacifiCor p Cinerg y Cinerg y Porte r Wrigh t Firs t Energ y Minnesot aPowe r AE P Duk e Powe r Centra l & South Wes t EE I Florid aPowe r

Corp . EPA/OAQP S EPA/OAQP S EPA/OAQP S EPA/OAQP S EPA/OAQP S EPA/OAQP S EPA/OAQP S EPA/OAQP S EPA/OAQP S EPA/OA P EPA/OG C EPA/OPA R PE S (EP A Contractor ) PE S (EP A Contractor ) Telephon e No . (202)955-156 1 (202)955-155 5 (423)751-677 9 (423)751-729 2 (205)257-666 4 (801)220-223 5 (513)287-388 4 (513)287-264 1 (614 ) 227-203 3 (330 ) 384-370 4 (218 ) 722-564 2 (x3339 ) (614)223-126 8 (704)373-322 5 (214 ) 777-137 3 (202 ) 508-564 0 (727 ) 826-433 4 (919)541-561. 6 (919)541-497 9 (919)541-550 3 (919)541-087 3 (919)541-537 5 (919)541-559 3 (919)541-238 0 (919)541-579 5 (919)541-010 2 (202)564-975 1 (202 ) 260-762 0 (202 ) 260-877 2 (919)941-033 3 (919)941-033 3 

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