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1

 PUBLIC MEETING

 FOR THE POLYCHLORINATED BIPHENYLS (PCBs):

 REASSESSMENT OF USE AUTHORIZATIONS ADVANCE

 NOTICE OF PROPOSED RULEMAKING

 July 29, 2010

 Empire Room

 Hilton Times Square Hotel

 234 West 42nd Street

 New York, New York 10036

BEFORE:

LYNN VENDINELLO, Chairperson

DR. MARIA DONA, Director of the National Program,

Chemicals Division, EPA Office of Chemical Safety

and Pollution Prevention

DAN KRAFT, Acting Chief, Pesticides and Toxic

Substances Branch, Division of Enforcement and

Compliance Assistance, U.S. EPA Region 2

DAEMIAN SCHREIBER, Meeting Facilitator, Quantech,

Inc.
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1 A P P E A R A N C E S:

2

3 MATT WALLACH, Citizens Campaign for the

4 Environment

5

6 AL RODRIGUEZ, Counsel to the Bronx Borough

7 President

8 LOON TULTON, NYC Public School Parent

9 WILLIAM HAWTHORNE, PS 199 PTA

10 ROBERT LEDERER, Bronx Health Link

11 ANJALI KOCHAR, NYC Public School Parent

12 RICHARD BARR, NYC Public School Parent

13 A.C. CUMBERBATCH, Service Employees International

14 Union 32 BJ

15

16 MIRANDA MASSIE, New York Lawyers for the Public

17 Interest

18 RENEE WASHINGTON, Teacher, PS 309

19 DAVID BREWSTER

20 PATRICIA DONEGAN

21 DAN LEFKOWITZ

22 RENEE WASHINGTON

23 GIGI GAZON

24 VERONICA VANTERPOOL

25 MR. ANONYMOUS
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1 P R O C E E D I N G S

2 MR. KRAFT: Hello, my name is Dan

3 Kraft. I'm the acting chief of the

4 Pesticides and Toxic Substances branch in

5 EPA Region 2.

6 I'm joined by Maria Doa, director of

7 the National Program Chemicals Division in

8 EPA's Office of Chemical Safety and

9 Pollution Prevention at EPA headquarters,

10 and Lynn Vendinello, chief of the Fibers

11 and Organics branch in the National Program

12 Chemicals Division.

13 Welcome to the sixth public meeting to

14 gather comments on the issues of EPA's

15 reassessment of its current authorizations

16 for polychlorinated biphenyl (PCB) use and

17 distribution in commerce.

18 EPA issued an advanced notice of

19 proposed rulemaking on April 7th, 2010,

20 initiating the agency's potential

21 reassessment of the PCB use authorizations.

22 On June 16th, 2010, EPA extended the

23 comment period until August 20th, 2010, and

24 provided for two additional public

25 meetings.
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1 The purpose of this meeting is to

2 provide an opportunity for the public to

3 deliver comments, information, or data

4 regarding the advance notice of proposed

5 rulemaking.

6 EPA representatives will be available

7 to answer clarifying questions on the

8 comments of the April 7th Federal Register

9 notice.

10 We would like to thank you for joining

11 us today, and we very much appreciate you

12 taking the time this evening to assist us

13 by providing valuable information that will

14 better inform EPA on the state of the

15 environment regarding PCBs in use, now that

16 it has been 30 years since their limited

17 uses were authorized.

18 In addition to the comments received

19 at today's meeting and the previous public

20 meetings across the country, EPA will also

21 be accepting written public comments

22 thorough August 20th, 2010.

23 You may provide those comments via

24 docket number EPA-HQ-OPPT-2009-0757,

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1 through www.regulations.gov., or via mail

2 or hand delivery to EPA headquarters in

3 Washington at the address listed in the

4 April 7th Federal Register.

5 We encourage you to submit written

6 comments in addition to your spoken

7 comments delivered here today.

8 Today's meeting will run no later than

9 9:00 p.m., beginning with a background

10 presentation on the advance notice of

11 proposed rulemaking, and then proceeding to

12 the public presentations.

13 We will have one ten-minute break at

14 approximately 8:00 p.m. There are public

15 restrooms located at the end of the foyer,

16 adjacent to the Empire Room.

17 We ask that each of the presentations

18 be limited to around ten minutes. Today's

19 spoken comments will go into the publicly

20 available docket and be available for

21 public viewing at regulations.gov.

22 Again, thank you for coming today.

23 Lynn Vendinello will give you some

24 background on the advance notice of

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1 proposed rulemaking.

2 MS. VENDINELLO: Thank you, Dan.

3 MR. KRAFT: You're welcome.

4 MS. VENDINELLO: Good evening. Thank

5 you all for coming. I'm going to do a

6 brief overview of the PCB regulations and

7 the advance notice of proposed rulemaking.

8 For those of who were at the last

9 meeting in New York, you might recognize

10 these slides, but I apologize. And the

11 second time around, you may absorb what is

12 being shown.

13 I will cover quickly what are PCBs,

14 what were they used for, what are some of

15 the health effects from PCBs, what is the

16 authority for the rulemaking that we are

17 undertaking today, what is the standard for

18 removing a use authorization, what are the

19 objectives of the rulemaking, what

20 information does the EPA seek during the

21 comment period, what is the timetable for

22 the rulemaking.

23 What are PCBs? PCBs are a group of

24 209 chemical compounds called congeners.

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1 PCB commercial formulations contain

2 mixtures of around 50 different congeners.

3 Approximately 1.4 billion pounds of

4 PCBs were produced in the U.S. between 1929

5 and 1977; and it is estimated that possibly

6 half were released into the environment.

7 PCBs were important in industrial

8 applications because they do not decompose

9 over time, are heat resistant, provide

10 elasticity to plastics, and have low

11 electrical conductivity.

12 Here's an example of the type of

13 products that are uses for PCB: Dielectric

14 fluid, hydraulic fluid, heat transfer

15 fluid; the aspirations, meaning that these

16 are not authorized uses.

17 We have discovered the fact that PCBs

18 were being used in areas where they were

19 not authorized for use such as cutting

20 oils, lubricants, pump oils, carbonless

21 copy paper, plasticizers, caulk and

22 sealants, paints and coatings, rubber, and

23 ink pigments.

24 What are the human health effects from

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1 PCBs? They are both acute short term and

2 long term. Some of the acute effects are

3 irritation, burning of the eyes, face, and

4 chloracne. Some of the long-term effects

5 are liver disorders, reproductive effects,

6 developmental effects, and probably

7 cancers.

8 PCBs also have numerous well

9 documented health effects, including

10 cancer, for animals. And there are a lot

11 more on the Web site.

12 What is the authority for the

13 rulemaking? When the Toxic Substances

14 Control Act was passed in the mid '70s,

15 Section 6(e) generally bans the

16 manufacture, processing, distribution in

17 commerce, and use of PCBs and use after

18 1978, but provides for exceptions based on

19 an EPA finding of, quote, no unreasonable

20 risk of injury to health or the

21 environment.

22 Most of the exceptions take the form

23 of authorizations which include conditions

24 such as location restrictions, repair

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1 restrictions, and concentration limits.

2 The same section of TSCA that banned

3 PCB percent authorizes by rule if they were

4 not in a non-totally enclosed manner in

5 these activities, they will not be found to

6 be an unreasonable risk to the health or

7 environment.

8 The EPA has determined that certain

9 non-totally enclosed PCB use will not mean

10 an unreasonable risk. And in the

11 regulations it's for a period of five years

12 after the effective date of the final rule.

13 At that time the EPA will examine the

14 needs, and that would have put us at 2004.

15 Here we are at 2010. A question you

16 might have is: What is the standard for

17 removing a use authorization? The courts

18 have decided in order for us to remove an

19 existing use authorization for transformers

20 or capacity towers, the standard is that

21 according to the EPA it must be less than

22 arbitrary.

23 It's is much less to remove than the

24 unreasonable burden to establish a use

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1 authorization. And this was tested out in

2 the Fifth Circuit Court.

3 What is the objective of the

4 rulemaking that we are undertaking now?

5 It's to reassess the current authorization

6 for certain PCBs to determine whether now,

7 30 years later, they may now pose an

8 unreasonable risk to the human health and

9 environment.

10 To meet this objective on behalf of

11 the public on many different topics, there

12 is a proposal, and it's rather long.

13 And there are a lot of areas that we

14 would like to take on such as population,

15 market size, the type of equipment,

16 management practices, equipment failure

17 rates, insurance costs -- and, as they

18 reach the end of their useful life -- the

19 removal and replacement costs for equipment

20 to mineral transformers, the impact of

21 severe spills, weather events, and

22 vandalism, the disposal, and metal

23 recycling capacity and costs, environmental

24 impact of all the PCBs and types and

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1 concentrations, such as paint or pigment.

2 I want to mention since there is an

3 interest in caulking in the room, the EPA

4 has undertaken a series of activities in

5 the last two years on PCBs and caulk. We

6 have a series of fact sheet cases and a

7 school information quilt available on our

8 Web site.

9 We recently posted steps on how to

10 renovate and abatement that have PCBs and

11 which provides detailed information to the

12 contractors and building owners when

13 conducting repair, renovations, or

14 abatement activities.

15 We have alerted numerous teachers,

16 parents, and children's health groups and

17 the agency has developed public health

18 levels for PCBs in schools.

19 We are conducting research in several

20 areas including on the source of PCBs and

21 strategies to reduce exposure, and research

22 on mitigation and source characterization.

23 What is the time frame for their part

24 of the rulemaking which is the comments

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1 advance notice of the comment period which

2 will end on August 20th, 2010? When we

3 propose the other rule, there will be

4 another commentary. Here is the address

5 where you can submit the comments and

6 docket number.

7 Once the comment period closes, the

8 rest of the work for 2010 will be to read

9 and review and respond to the comments

10 received. I will be happy to take any

11 clarifying questions before we proceed to

12 the list of speakers.

13 A VOICE: I have a question.

14 MS. VENDINELLO: Good evening.

15 A VOICE: My question was you put down

16 there that caulk is a sealant and has the

17 asterisk next to them, and you said they

18 were not authorized. What does that mean?

19 MS. VENDINELLO: That's a good

20 question. That means that we -- basically

21 they are banned for use. It's not legal to

22 use PCBs in caulk, and obviously they are

23 already there. And when they were used, it

24 most likely was before TSCA was in place.

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1 Authorized means allowed. So it's in

2 there; they must be removed and disposed of

3 properly. We have a series of regulations

4 on the proper cleanup and disposal of

5 unauthorized use of PCB, for example, in

6 caulks.

7 Any other clarifying questions or else

8 we will move on to the speakers? Thank

9 you.

10 MR. SCHREIBER: I will start with the

11 list of pre-registered speakers. Is Matt

12 Wallach pre-registered? Al Rodriguez?

13 MR. RODRIGUEZ: I am here, but I'm not

14 making a statement today.

15 MR. SCHREIBER: William Hawthorne,

16 P.S. 199 PTA.

17 MR. HAWTHORNE: Good evening,

18 everybody, I'm William Hawthorne. I'm a

19 parent of two children at P.S. 199. I'm

20 also the vice president of the PTA. I'm

21 here as a parent and a representative of

22 the P.S. 1999 PTA to express our views on

23 which the EPA has stated its intent to

24 weaken the federal regulations.

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1 PCBs were found more than two years

2 ago at P.S. 11 when The Daily News

3 testified the school found PCBs in excess

4 allowed by federal regulations. These

5 findings were disclosed after a window

6 renovation at the school.

7 Subsequent testing revealed that the

8 PCBs were present in the air of the school

9 in excess of background levels, and the New

10 York Department of Education and the School

11 Construction Authority subsequently engaged

12 in remediation at the school.

13 To date, parents have not been given

14 an assurance that the level of PCBs in the

15 air at P.S. 11 are within the EPA public

16 levels for all of the school children, and

17 that the levels of the PCBs in the air have

18 returned to normal background levels.

19 P.S. 11 is one of the five schools in

20 the New York City pilot for remediation

21 methods for schools during this summer. We

22 understand that the current EPA standards

23 when the PCB contains more than five parts

24 per million was a concern for human health.

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1 The standard for schools nationally is not

2 backed up by the latest scientific and

3 medical studies.

4 On the contrary, the danger of

5 exposing children to PCBs, we believe that

6 it is unprincipled and wrong to weaken the

7 existing standard to protect human health

8 when there is no change in the scientific

9 and medical environment to justify such a

10 point.

11 P.S. 199 and the PTA oppose any

12 weakening of the existing standards, and to

13 institute such a change other than the

14 original regulations which are different

15 are wrong. As advocates of our children

16 and as advocates of the children all over

17 the country and in the existing -- I'm

18 sorry -- in the interest of our children

19 and the staff, we strongly oppose any

20 weakening of the existing federal EPA

21 regulations.

22 Thank you. I'm glad to see everybody.

23 MR. SCHREIBER: The next speaker is

24 Robert Lederer from Bronx Health Link.

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1 Robert.

2 MR. LEDERER: Good evening, everybody.

3 My name is Robert Lederer, and I'm the

4 researcher and policy analyst for the Bronx

5 Health Link, Inc., a clearing house of

6 information for members of the health and

7 human service delivery system of the Bronx.

8 The Bronx Health Link works with the

9 community and health care providers to

10 improve birth outcomes, prenatal care, and

11 the reproductive health of Bronx women.

12 We reach thousands of women and their

13 families through health education and

14 promotion activities that assist women in

15 accessing medical and social services.

16 We also assess community health needs

17 in the Bronx, and are currently completing

18 an assessment of environmental exposures as

19 they affect maternal and child health.

20 Thank you for the opportunity to speak

21 today.

22 The Bronx Health Link is strongly

23 opposed to the proposed rule change

24 announced on April 7th of this year that

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1 could allow the EPA to exempt PCBs in

2 unenclosed caulking from its current limit

3 of 50 parts per million.

4 We stand in support of the courageous

5 parents of the NYC PCB Free Schools

6 Coalition in their insistence that public

7 schools must be made safe from PCB

8 contamination, and that there can be no

9 compromise when it comes to protecting

10 children's health.

11 The important lawsuit for PCB

12 remediation initiated last year by Bronx

13 parents was filed in response to the fact

14 that 400 NYC public schools were built

15 before 1978, and thus may have illegally

16 high PCB levels.

17 Later this risk became even more

18 apparent when the NYC schools released,

19 under pressure from the parents' lawsuit,

20 test results showing that many schools,

21 including several in the Bronx, had PCB

22 exposure levels as high as 4,000 times the

23 allowable limit.

24 It was an encouraging sign when the

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1 EPA helped to broker a settlement agreement

2 of the parents' lawsuit, requiring the New

3 York City public school system to do the

4 pilot studies necessary to assemble a

5 comprehensive plan for removing PCBs from

6 caulking throughout the system.

7 However, now the EPA is backtracking

8 from their historically held position that

9 PCBs at levels greater than 50 ppm, quote,

10 present an unreasonable risk to injury and

11 health, unquote, and that caulk containing

12 more than 50 ppm of PCBs, quote, must be

13 removed, unquote.

14 This has been based on the

15 overwhelming evidence, repeatedly

16 acknowledged by the EPA, that PCBs have

17 been found to have a host of harmful

18 effects on health, particularly in children

19 who are vulnerable to exposure prenatally

20 and through breast milk. Harmful effects

21 have been documented even at low levels.

22 I want to ask the EPA staff members if

23 they can explain what was the basis for the

24 statement about undue burden that would be

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1 created by the removal of PCBs on the

2 schools.

3 MS. VENDINELLO: This is not a

4 discussion.

5 MR. LEDERER: Earlier you were taking

6 questions.

7 MR. SCHREIBER: I'm sorry.

8 DR. DOA: With the undue burdens that

9 would be imposed, all I can saying that

10 schools have so many things in trying to

11 teach kids that the cost is going to be

12 large, and it would take away from the -- I

13 think that's some of the things that some

14 other people in the public were telling the

15 EPA.

16 MR. LEDERER: Is that a legally

17 allowable criteria, the cost of

18 remediating?

19 DR. DOA: This was not a proposed

20 rule. It was sort of put out in

21 juxtaposition of the burden on schools.

22 This is not the proposed school, and the

23 EPA is not proposing that.

24 This is our second public meeting, and

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1 I think we have heard pretty clearly how

2 people feel about that.

3 MR. SCHREIBER: Thank you.

4 The next registered speaker is Anjali

5 Kochar, NYC public school parent.

6 MR. KOCHAR: Good evening,

7 distinguished panel, EPA staff, parents,

8 and friends. Of the I'm Anjali Kochar. My

9 name is Anjali Kochar, and I'm a member of

10 the NYC PCB Free Schools Coalition.

11 I come before you this evening to urge

12 you not to weaken the current regulations

13 governing PCBs in caulk, and to thank you

14 for this opportunity for concerned citizens

15 to have their voices heard on this very

16 important issue.

17 I'm the parent of a student at

18 P.S. 153 in the Bronx, a school which had

19 a, quote, dirty wipe back in April of 2008.

20 That was my first introduction to PCBs,

21 even though I had heard about PCBs in the

22 Hudson River when I grew up in the Bronx.

23 As we all know, PCBs are an excellent

24 binder and were used in caulk in building

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1 materials in the 1960s and '70s, especially

2 in construction in the northeast until

3 1979, when Congress banned their use.

4 When adopting the current standard,

5 the EPA stated PCBs at concentrations of 50

6 parts per million or greater present an

7 unreasonable risk of injury to health.

8 And this finding is based on the well

9 documented human health and environmental

10 hazard of PCB exposure. So my question is

11 why?

12 Why are we looking to weaken the

13 current standard for PCBs in caulk

14 specifically? Has a new scientific study

15 unearthed information that as caulk

16 deteriorates, it doesn't flake and let PCBs

17 escape?

18 Are PCBs not as transient as we once

19 thought? Do they not travel far and wide

20 and penetrate soil or are easily inhaled.

21 Are we no longer exposed to PCBs

22 through the food chain and construction

23 materials? Are PCBs no longer considered

24 carcinogens or causes of respiratory

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1 illnesses?

2 As far as I know, there has been no

3 new study that says any of this. In fact,

4 in recent years studies have shown more

5 associations, not fewer, on low level PCB

6 exposure and detriments to children's and

7 adult health.

8 Again I ask, why now? In the EPA's

9 notice of proposed rulemaking, it states

10 that the EPA is seeking comment on whether

11 the number 50 parts per million should be

12 changed, given the recent realization that

13 the use of PCBs in caulk may be widespread

14 and may be an undue burden for schools if

15 the exclusion continues at 50 ppm.

16 Could this really be the answer to my

17 question? Could it be that the EPA's

18 concern over the economic welfare of the

19 nation's schools will overshadow its

20 mission to protect human health and

21 safeguard the natural environment; air,

22 water, and land, upon which life depends?

23 This is not the time to weaken the

24 current standards governing PCBs in caulk.

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1 EPA Region 2 has just entered a

2 ground-breaking agreement with the

3 Department of Education in New York City to

4 conduct a pilot study that will result in a

5 citywide plan for addressing the risks

6 associated with PCBs in its schools, and

7 there are two national studies underway.

8 If anything, it seems as though in an

9 environment in which we've seen the

10 benefits of putting more restrictions on

11 things that can have a detrimental impacted

12 on us and our economy, that we should

13 maintain what we currently have in place

14 until we know more.

15 This is not just about my daughters or

16 your children. It's about all of our

17 children and our children's children. I

18 may be one voice, but that one voice is

19 made up of the voices of other mothers,

20 fathers, aunts, uncles, grandparents,

21 friends who could not be here this evening

22 or who haven't yet been introduced to PCBs.

23 We cannot in good conscience make the

24 presence of PCBs in caulk an acceptable

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1 cost of going to school. Whether it be in

2 New York or nationally, we must safeguard

3 the future of our nation's most vulnerable,

4 our children.

5 After reviewing all of the testimony

6 and information presented, I hope that this

7 panel and your colleagues at the EPA will

8 decide to maintain the current regulation

9 that states that PCBs found at 50 ppm pose

10 a threat to human health and that any caulk

11 that has PCBs at 50 ppm or more should be

12 removed.

13 Thank you.

14 MR. SCHREIBER: Richard Barr, New York

15 City public school parent.

16 MR. BARR: Good evening. Thank you

17 for taking my testimony again. I did

18 testify at the earlier hearing. Listening

19 to some of what I heard that day and

20 thinking about some things, I have a couple

21 of things to add.

22 I'm on the Parents Association at the

23 Bronx High School of Sciences which was

24 built in 1958, I believe, so that it is

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1 within the period.

2 I want to say at the outset that I

3 believe that the EPA should continue to

4 promulgate the strong regulations existing

5 or stronger programs, but at least existing

6 regulations on the maximum PCB levels in

7 school buildings.

8 I think that the problem will get

9 worse and more expensive the more testing

10 that is done and the more we know about how

11 many buildings require adequate

12 remediation.

13 And I think what that will result in

14 is that given that state and local

15 governments are already hard pressed with

16 their budgets and are cutting back and they

17 are required to balance their budgets each

18 year, they will not have the money even if

19 they have the will to address the problem.

20 I want to suggest that I believe that

21 the EPA should urge its top level

22 administrators to push the administration

23 to consider in future plans for stimulus

24 packages, that a substantial amount be put

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1 into the cost of PCB remediation and also a

2 good jobs program with a lot of people out

3 of work, would be a stimulus plan that

4 could employ people to do the remediations.

5 I think that would be a win-win all

6 around. And the only people in this

7 country that could commit money is the

8 Feds. And I hope your bosses can persuade

9 the Obama administration to cope with the

10 enormous problem that will only get bigger

11 the more of the scope of the problem is

12 uncovered.

13 I also think that speaking just about

14 New York City, the lead agency here, the

15 Department of Education has proven itself

16 to be not very diligent in this area or

17 very willing to face and take on the

18 burdens.

19 I heard the previous testimony from a

20 lady who was here today talking about an

21 elementary school in Staten Island and from

22 another parent in the Manhattan elementary

23 school 199 where my daughter went before

24 her current school and attends the middle

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1 school on the top floor and any PCBs the

2 kids were exposed to, she was exposed to.

3 In the case of Staten Island, we had

4 the example of a boy with asthma who did

5 not have a problem breathing in the school

6 until the windows were replaced, and after

7 that needed steroids to get through the

8 day, showing that when the DOE did replace

9 those windows, they obviously didn't do the

10 proper containment procedure and an air

11 airborne pollution problem that was not

12 there before.

13 199 was tested after remediation. And

14 after cleanup, the levels were much too

15 high. While they are willing to do it,

16 they are obviously not willing to put the

17 time and effort and the expense to do it

18 right. Somebody has to force them to.

19 I found it alarming after hearing the

20 two examples when I went back to my school

21 and spoke to the principal who for many

22 years was a science teacher before being a

23 principal, said oh, there's no problem,

24 they replaced the windows here ten years

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1 ago. We don't know yet if there were PCBs

2 in the original caulk or there were not.

3 That she would make the assumption

4 that just replacing the windows when there

5 was a problem, that that's all it would

6 take, if that replacement was begun

7 sloppily and the problem can be even worse

8 shows that there is widespread ignorance.

9 You people should not relax the standards,

10 but really police the issue.

11 I want to make a couple of more

12 points, another example to me of who you

13 are dealing with here in New York City.

14 A few years ago the Department of

15 Education decided to build a campus of new

16 schools on a former industrial site in the

17 Mott Haven section of the Bronx, a former

18 industrial site that was still heavily

19 polluted with industrial residue that they

20 did not test or take seriously.

21 The New York lawyers for the Public

22 Interest had to fight them tooth and nail

23 and they were still in denial, and no one

24 really wanted to do anything to properly

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1 remediate the site before building a campus

2 of five new schools -- or I think it was

3 three. In any case, I don't find them

4 trustworthy.

5 One thing that occurred to me and

6 maybe it's the last thing I'll tell you

7 about. Their answer at that point was we

8 need new schools in the City, and we cannot

9 pick and choose and sometimes we're stuck

10 with the sites we can get.

11 This is interesting because the DOE,

12 if the need for new schools is that acute,

13 they can go to the New York City government

14 that they are a part of and ask them to

15 condemn sites via eminent domain for public

16 schools, which is a valid use of the law in

17 my opinion. But they don't.

18 Instead the City sits by and gives its

19 blessing to private developers for eminent

20 domain and do not consider to do it for the

21 schools. Please do not weaken the laws.

22 Push for the funding that it will take to

23 really addresses this.

24 Know that when you're dealing with the

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1 Department of Education, you don't have a

2 willing partner, I don't think.

3 Thank you. Thank you.

4 MR. SCHREIBER: The next speaker is

5 A.C. Cumberbatch, Service Employees

6 International Union 32 BJ.

7 MR. CUMBERBATCH: Good evening. My

8 name is Ahmed Cumberbatch, and I'm a field

9 representative for the School Cleaning

10 Division at SEIU 32 BJ. SEIU 32 BJ is the

11 nation's largest property service union,

12 representing over 120,000 workers,

13 including 5,000 cleaners in New York City

14 public schools.

15 Thank you for the opportunity to

16 testify today regarding the Environmental

17 Protection Agency's decision to reassess

18 its PCB regulations.

19 Although Congress banned the

20 manufacture and most uses of PCBs in

21 1976-1978, there is evidence that buildings

22 constructed or renovated from 1950 to 1978,

23 including an estimated 266 New York City

24 public schools built before PCBs were

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1 banned, may have PCBs at high levels in the

2 caulk surrounding windows and doors.

3 Just last year the School Construction

4 Authority reported to The Daily News that

5 19 of the schools that underwent renovation

6 work in the summer of 2008 had caulk with

7 PCB concentrations of greater than 50 parts

8 per million, ppm, the current EPA threshold

9 for determining whether removal is

10 required.

11 The EPA's "Background on PCB Exposure

12 and Risk" notes that chronic exposure to

13 PCBs may cause harmful health effects and

14 emphasizes that individuals repairing or

15 dismantling PCB-contaminated products, such

16 as caulk, are at the highest risk when it

17 comes to inhaling air or dust containing

18 PCBs.

19 School maintenance workers, whose

20 daily work exposes them to PCB-contaminated

21 caulk, are likely to have this heightened

22 risk of exposure.

23 SEIU 32 BJ believes that in order to

24 ensure the health of the City's teachers,

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1 students, and school maintenance workers, a

2 broad PCB remediation program is necessary.

3 We strongly support the stated goal of

4 the January 2010 agreement between the City

5 of New York and the EPA to develop a

6 rigorous Citywide approach to address

7 PCB-contaminated caulk in City schools and

8 are deeply concerned that the EPA's

9 advanced notice of proposal rulemaking

10 (ANPR) in the April 7th Federal Register

11 may seek to relax the 50 ppm standard for

12 PCB contamination on specious grounds.

13 The EPA's reasoning that the use of

14 PCBs in caulk may be widespread and may be

15 an undue burden for schools if the

16 exclusion continues at 50 ppr is

17 unacceptable, particularly given the

18 potential health risks to students and

19 workers in public schools.

20 We are not aware of any scientific

21 evidence justifying the relaxation of PCB

22 standards. In fact, the New York Committee

23 for Occupational Safety and Health (OSHA)

24 reported work-related elevations in PCB

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1 levels.

2 This is with good cause. There's a

3 growing body of evidence that associates

4 the disturbance of or proximity to PCB

5 caulks with elevated blood serum

6 concentrations of PCS.

7 For example, a study cited by OSHA

8 showed that workers who were engaged in the

9 removal of PCB caulks had PCB blood levels

10 twice as high as in the age- and

11 sex-matched control groups.

12 In 2005, the EPA stated the use of

13 PCBs in caulking had never been authorized

14 by the EPA, and demanded the removal of the

15 caulk. The EPA stated that because it is

16 illegal and potential for exposure may be

17 significant, PCB-containing caulk must be

18 removed upon discovery.

19 SEIU 32 BJ sees no reason for the

20 EPA to changes its stance now. Given the

21 EPA's previously expressed concerns related

22 to health risks associated with PCB

23 exposure, SEIU 32 BJ does not believe that

24 the fact that the use of PCBs in caulk may

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1 be widespread provided the necessary

2 rationale for the reconsideration and

3 potential relaxation of a standard.

4 If anything, the fact that there may

5 be a widespread presence of PCBs in schools

6 should sound an alarm and prompt the

7 allocation of additional resources and

8 attention towards its study and removal.

9 We strongly urge the EPA to continue

10 its commitment to a rigorous pilot program

11 and Citywide strategy to address the

12 removal of PCB caulk that will result in

13 healthier environments for school

14 maintenance workers, teachers, and New York

15 City public school students.

16 I would like to thank you for giving

17 me the opportunity to speak today. Thank

18 you.

19 MR. SCHREIBER: Thank you. Is Miranda

20 Massie present?

21 MS. GAZON: I'm here instead of

22 Ms. Massie. Thank you for having the

23 second hearing, and thank you for holding

24 it in the evening which allows us time as

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1 parents to make it. You can see they

2 definitely took the time to make it. I

3 extend my thanks to you for doing that.

4 I'm a community advisor in the New

5 York Lawyers for the Public Interest. I

6 work closely with the New York City schools

7 Coalition One, and we provide technical

8 assistance to the parents and their

9 colleagues.

10 We testified at the last hearing and

11 we want to renew any relaxation on the

12 current standard and keeping the 50 ppm.

13 We have organizational partners who this

14 evening are fighting other environmental

15 justice battles who cannot be here.

16 You will be hearing from the New York

17 City Justice Alliance, U-roads in Brooklyn.

18 You will also be hearing from the

19 Center For Health, the Environment and

20 Justice. VJ intends to send you some

21 testimony.

22 I thank you once again. I hope that

23 the EPA takes our comments seriously.

24 Thank you very much.

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1 MR. SCHREIBER: Ms. Washington, do you

2 wish to come to the podium?

3 MS. WASHINGTON: Yes.

4 Renee Washington. I'm a teacher at

5 P.S. 309. A couple of my other colleagues

6 wanted to join me, but because of summer

7 school and commitments to their children,

8 they could not make it this evening. I

9 told them that I would come and say

10 something about the PCBs.

11 We had a meeting at our school

12 June 21st. I think it was a productive

13 meeting, although I think it was very late

14 in the year in June to spring something on

15 a school population.

16 Our PTA parent coordinator and parents

17 were there who spoke out against us being

18 part of any pilot study that we had no say

19 in; we were just chosen.

20 I asked the people there then why

21 where we chosen? What was your plan B if

22 we are going to begin any petitions in this

23 study, our school per se?

24 What was your plan B in case something

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1 didn't work? You said you were trying out

2 a new thing. You were trying out different

3 things at different schools.

4 There was a school in Staten Island,

5 one in Manhattan, one in the Bronx, our

6 school 309 in Bedford Stuyvesant. If

7 things did not work, what was your plan B?

8 We see from the oil spill how plan B

9 was not effective then. We did not want to

10 wait until there was no cap on the PCBs per

11 se. What was the plan B?

12 A lot of the speakers here gave

13 testimony as to why PCBs should be at 50

14 ppm. I will not address that. They did a

15 very, very good job. I will address a

16 situation to give you examples.

17 When they did the remodeling of our

18 school windows last year, going on now two

19 years, I had an after school class. I'm

20 teaching fourth grade.

21 I told the men I'm going to dismiss

22 the children, I will be right back up to

23 get my things, give me ten minutes and I

24 will be out of your way.

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1 Within that ten-minute time period, I

2 took my children downstairs, said a couple

3 of good ace, came back upstairs, and the

4 cloud of dust that was in my room was

5 unbelievable. It was like I was in a fog.

6 Dust was everywhere, everywhere.

7 Where did this dust come from? The

8 men removing the windows, doing the

9 mounting, doing everything they were told

10 to do? Didn't I just say I was coming back

11 in ten minutes? Oh-oh, I forgot.

12 Dust was in the children's desks, the

13 next day when they took out books. Dust

14 was in locked closets. Dust was underneath

15 things. Dust was in sinks, in drawers,

16 everywhere.

17 What did this dust contain? How many

18 years do we inhale that same dust? What is

19 in that dust? We don't know. We don't

20 know.

21 This is the same school that I'm

22 teaching in that I attended in

23 kindergarten. It was built in 1964. I

24 attended kindergarten there.

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1 Now I'm working in the same school. I

2 have been practically in this area my

3 entire life. I want to come back to give

4 back.

5 And I go back to get sick or the

6 parents -- the kids or the parents, friends

7 and everyone else I associate with are

8 going to be sick? Are we talking time

9 bombs? Do we know?

10 You said before you wanted to make

11 sure that these things are taken care of,

12 the caulk is removed safely. What is that?

13 How do you do that?

14 You told us that in June that you had

15 these remediation deadlines and setups and

16 classrooms, you were going to make sure

17 that you were going to take out the caulk

18 and do this and do that. How is that going

19 to be safe for the students, teachers,

20 students, family friends?

21 When they did the remodeling of this

22 school, things were done so sloppily I had

23 to call the UFT offices with Mr. Engels to

24 come out twice and take pictures. Not

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1 once, but twice. Why was that?

2 I'm across the street in a school in

3 Queens where they are remodeling now. The

4 cleanup is not the best, but it was being

5 taken much better than it was in Bed

6 Stuyvesant. This cleanup I live across the

7 street from is in Queens.

8 When I was doing the Police Athletic

9 League at night for the 12 to 19-year-old

10 men where they could play basketball, one

11 night they came in, dust was flying in

12 their faces like it was snowing outside.

13 Why is that? What is going to happen to

14 those young men 10 or 20 years from now?

15 We say that the PCBs are a problem for

16 liver cancers, disorders of the thyroid,

17 immune system, problems with motor skills

18 and decrease in short-term memory, behavior

19 and developmental problems, mothers exposed

20 to regular amounts of PCBs or ate

21 contaminated fish during pregnancy.

22 Why do we have so much level ones in

23 our area? Why don't they want to learn; is

24 that because of PCBs? Can anybody say? We

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1 don't know. This is new ground. This is

2 foreign. We have so many things and so

3 many things that are not settling. I just

4 get frustrated.

5 We have teachers who retired as I,

6 custodians, aides, parents who retired and

7 moved on and -- in three or four years.

8 Then we work to retire and then we die.

9 Why; is it the school building that's

10 killing us? Can't I enjoy retirement?

11 I wish to retire in four years Is my

12 life expectancy four, five or six years

13 after I retire? That is why parents,

14 school assistants and the neighbors, the

15 people living next to the school, there is

16 one reason: They don't trust anything

17 coming from the federal government, people

18 with authority because they have been

19 misled on the whole time of their lives.

20 People have told lies. Would you

21 trust them? What do they say? Fool me

22 once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on

23 me. That's what's happening. They don't

24 trust you. I just want to say that

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1 something needs to be done.

2 I'm sure that not making the parts per

3 million higher is the reason or the

4 thinking that needs to be done.

5 I'm sure with putting our heads

6 together, the age, the brains that we have,

7 we can come up with some better strategy

8 than trying to sweep it under the rug and

9 just say let's raise the parts per million

10 and that will take care of everything, the

11 cost of the cleanup is too much. We cannot

12 turn our backs on this problem. This is

13 not what we should do.

14 If you look into your inner self and

15 find that good person that is there, then

16 please stay with the 50 parts per million

17 that was set, and let's try to put our

18 heads together and find a solution.

19 Thank you.

20 MR. SCHREIBER: Thank you.

21 Veronica Vanterpool.

22 MS. VANTERPOOL: Good evening. My

23 name is Veronica Vanterpool, and my child

24 attends P.S. 153 in the Bronx, one of

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1 several schools that was sampled in 2008

2 and subsequently identified to have PCBs in

3 a random wipe sample.

4 I would like to add my opposition to

5 that expressed by parents,

6 environmentalists, scientists, industrial

7 hygienists, educators, attorneys, and

8 concerned citizens here this evening.

9 The Environmental Protection Agency's

10 proposal to review the PCB regulations for

11 caulk is short-sighted, suspect, and

12 contrary to the agency's mission, and I

13 urge the proposal to be withdrawn.

14 Upon learning of the exceedingly high

15 levels of PCBs detected in caulk at some of

16 NYC's public schools, I was immediately

17 alarmed.

18 My background in environmental policy

19 has made it clear that too many examples of

20 environmental threats have been

21 historically masked or muted by many of the

22 key agencies tasked with protecting the

23 public from those threats.

24 It happened with asbestos and lead.

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1 I'm part of a parent coalition known as the

2 NYC PCB Free Schools Coalition, to prevent

3 a recurring situation with PCBs.

4 The dangers of PCBs are noted by the

5 U.S. EPA; state and local agencies; dozens

6 of peer reviewed medical, scientific,

7 environmental, and health journals; and the

8 media.

9 32 years later, the toxicity and

10 danger of this chemical is still frequently

11 written about in articles and reported in

12 the media. A few examples from this month

13 alone:

14 A July 2010 Los Angeles Times article

15 reports that the EPA ordered a toxic waste

16 dump to clean up carcinogenic PCBs

17 correlated to the high rate of birth

18 defects in an adjacent farming community.

19 On July 21st, the Journal of

20 Hypertension noted that exposure of

21 polychlorinated biphenyls (PCBs) appears to

22 be associated with rates of hypertension

23 and may have an effect on blood pressure

24 control.

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1 In Texas, residents have been warned

2 about eating fish from the Trinity River

3 because of PCB contamination and the

4 potential for bioaccumulation.

5 In early July, the Boston Globe

6 reported that the University of

7 Massachusetts at Amherst is removing PCBs

8 from one of its residence communities over

9 the summer because of the presence of PCBs.

10 The PCBs were mostly in the caulking.

11 I understand the pathways of exposure

12 are different. The relevance of these

13 examples is to highlight the alarm, 32

14 years later, of PCB exposure.

15 For this reason, I cannot understand

16 nor support the agency's consideration of

17 lowering the threshold for one pathway of

18 PCB exposure; caulk.

19 The agency's proposal runs counter to

20 its very task to ensure all Americans are

21 protected from significant risks to human

22 health and the environment where they live,

23 learn, and work.

24 Our coalition of concerned NYC public

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1 school parents, elected officials, and

2 advocacy organizations supported the

3 litigation of one concerned Bronx mom who

4 sued the NYC Department of Education over

5 PCB testing in those public school,

6 approximately 500, built before the EPA PCB

7 ban in 1978.

8 That effort culminated in a landmark

9 agreement with the NYC Department of

10 Education to conduct a pilot study that

11 will result in a Citywide plan for

12 addressing the health risks of PCBs in

13 public schools.

14 We were relieved to have toppled one

15 bureaucratic hurdle to safeguard our

16 children's health. Imagine how

17 disheartened and frustrated we are now to

18 learn of the U.S. EPA's intention to relax

19 the restrictions on PCBs in caulk.

20 This unravels our two-year effort to

21 protect our children from PCBs in schools.

22 Our children spend more than 30 hours each

23 week in school.

24 I appeal to your agency to fulfill its

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1 mission and fulfill its obligation to

2 protecting our most vulnerable population,

3 our children.

4 Thank you.

5 I would like to add that cost should

6 not be a consideration. Much like brown

7 sites are known as super fund sites, and

8 that's probably bankrupt at this point, the

9 question should not be a determining factor

10 in moving forward. It doesn't prevent

11 or -- it does not prevent the EPA from

12 identifying brown sites. This should not

13 be a consideration.

14 MR. SCHREIBER: That concludes our

15 list of pre-registered speakers. There's

16 a man in the back of the room. And after

17 that, we will open the floor for additional

18 comments.

19 Mr. Anonymous?

20 MR. ANONYMOUS: He asked for my name

21 and I said I would be Mr. Anonymous for

22 now. Renee Washington who spoke, she's in

23 a school identical next to my school in the

24 same district in Brooklyn.

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1 Prior to this capital design project

2 where the windows were installed in 116 in

3 Brooklyn, I had attended meetings on the

4 several million dollars that would be spent

5 on Districts 13, 14, 15, and 16.

6 In attending those meetings, I was

7 aware of the PCB issue prior to

8 construction.

9 It seems in the inner city

10 neighborhoods of Bedford Stuyvesant and

11 Clinton still and Fort Green, all 17

12 schools in Bedford Stuyvesant, the money

13 was spent for outside construction which

14 meant for replacement in Clinton Hill, Fort

15 Green, predominantly Hispanic and black

16 neighborhoods.

17 Both 16 and 13, those schools were

18 also for outside construction. In District

19 14 and District 15, which was Bushwick and

20 Park Slope, those districts, they renovated

21 and spent the money for inside

22 construction.

23 In my school, which happens to be 308,

24 next to 309 there is no air conditioning in

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1 the school built in '74. It's up on the

2 first floor, in the lunch room, no air

3 conditioning in the gym. The school gets

4 so hot now with the insulated windows that

5 they put in, we are doing 80 and 90 degrees

6 up to November.

7 With the populations of children who

8 are needing special needs, the children are

9 scoring ones and twos, I think they are

10 called. And now that is the worst. At one

11 time it was the best.

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

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1 It seems that PCBs which she spoke

2 about, the dust, the men were supposed to

3 start work from 10 to midnight on, they

4 started work at 4:30, and they wanted to

5 get home at 12 or 2 in the morning.

6 They didn't tell the student or the

7 adult population of what I knew, and they

8 did tell the district. And the parents,

9 most of them do not come out to meetings,

10 and they don't know. Now the construction,

11 it was done.

12 The dust she spoke about was

13 happening. I brought it to their

14 attention, and I'm called the whistle

15 blower. That doesn't bother me. At the

16 same time they came and worked a little

17 different but yet the dust was there.

18 The men had monitors going, but no one

19 realized with the PTA meetings and

20 different events and there was a breathing

21 problem with the air, and we were not told.

22 Fast forward, the students and/or

23 professional population have come down with

24 different cancers and strokes, and now in

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1 the two weeks I'm told that I have high

2 blood pressure. Since I blew the whistle,

3 I have no ventilation, an asbestos tile

4 ceiling. I'm 64. And after 48 years of

5 work, when I'm 66 and four months, I will

6 get a check.

7 This is the way I thought my concept

8 of PCBs was happening. I saw some

9 construction men last summer, they didn't

10 have summer school at my school because

11 there was no air conditioning and sent us

12 to another school in Bed Stuyvesant.

13 One day I saw them digging in the

14 ground. The construction worker told me we

15 have to replace the soil; there's PCBs in

16 the soil. I said why is that? He said

17 there's particles in this soil, P.S. 40.

18 And now I'm working at P.S. 40 this

19 summer, and they have new grass growing and

20 new plants are planted. And everything

21 looks healthy around the front of P.S. 40.

22 If you come over to 308, there is no

23 grass growing around the school. There is

24 no plants that seemed to survive. And

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1 where the men worked, there are still

2 tracks and no regrowth of weeds even.

3 There's the school crossing.

4 Everyone is affected. The kids come

5 in -- and I'm next to the nurse's office --

6 the kids come in saying that they have

7 headaches and upset stomachs. This goes on

8 throughout the year.

9 I'm here at this meeting because I

10 heard about it. The bottom line is I think

11 there's a whole few neighborhoods here and

12 you can't calm these kids down. They are

13 just so wiped out.

14 And I'm an adult, and I lived in

15 Brownsville, the inner city, all my life.

16 They don't even see me. They are like

17 robots. I always said there is something

18 in the air.

19 There is Wi-Fi in the schools. If

20 they don't pass summer school in the next

21 seven days, they will be held over. This

22 year there is 17, and last year there was

23 two.

24 The bus is full because the -- because

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1 they are satisfied about the numbers that

2 have been skewed. There are articles in

3 The Village Voice where the 81st Precinct,

4 a five-part article, where the neighborhood

5 will be turned into a ghost town.

6 You have District 13. Every school in

7 that district has had outside window

8 replacements, and District 16 had outside

9 window replacement.

10 There's a school now at 800 Gates

11 Avenue and -- there's new capital planned

12 out for the 2010-2014 money, and there's a

13 school on 800 Gates where they just put up

14 scaffolding.

15 This -- I'm just saying there's a

16 whole neighborhood this teacher is talking

17 about, and that talking about that has this

18 inner problem that everyone wonders why the

19 young people got their pants wet.

20 With that, I just want to stop. And

21 without going further -- and I can go on

22 and give you at lot more -- I want to give

23 you the essence of what is going on here in

24 the neighborhood in Brooklyn, New York.

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1 Thank you.

2 MR. SCHREIBER: I believe a man in the

3 back wanted to make a comment.

4 MR. BREWSTER: Good evening. I just

5 want to speak from the angle of a parent.

6 My son goes to 178 in the Bronx.

7 Growing up, we always had so many

8 dangers to worry about, getting involved

9 with peer pressure, gangs. Whatever the

10 case was, you always told us to go to

11 school and get and the education.

12 With our kids not being safe in

13 school, it's very concerning for me because

14 I made it through the worst. I never

15 really obtained my high school diploma

16 because of the stuff I was involved in.

17 My son is an A student and I do not

18 want him to go to a school that has hazards

19 to his health. There should be no price on

20 kids' health. There should be no price on

21 any one of our kids, any teacher, any

22 principal.

23 If these kids are in danger by any

24 type of thing going on in the school, it

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1 should be removed. These kids should be

2 tested for high levels of PCBs in their

3 bodies.

4 If they are not tested -- and I spoke

5 to a man at the last meeting who told me --

6 I asked him why the skids were not being

7 tested. He tells me we can catch PCBs by

8 all kinds of stuff in the household, eating

9 foods, what have you.

10 I suggested to him test the whole

11 family. If my sons PCB levels are higher

12 than mine, then we have a major problem in

13 the building where he's going to school.

14 I don't understand why someone would

15 even suggest, to not even the amount of

16 level you are going to test, to hire anyone

17 so that you don't have to go in it and

18 check the dangers to our kids. It does not

19 make any sense to me.

20 Speaking as a parent, there is no cost

21 on protecting our kids. I would die for

22 that. Do you understand? I never had a

23 chance to finish out what I was set out to

24 do.

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1 My son has a chance. I'm going to

2 make sure that it's safe for him to go to

3 school and get an education. I think that

4 anyone that has a kid should feel that way

5 too. That's all I have to say.

6 MR. SCHREIBER: I'm sorry.

7 MS. DONEGAN: I'm Patricia Donegan.

8 Some of you might know me from the last

9 meeting when I testified. I didn't intend

10 to testify here. But as I'm hearing you

11 share stories, I'm glad that you are here.

12 I'm the mom of the children from

13 Staten Island. We inherited a mess. We

14 are 33 years from when the EPA identified

15 this problem. They did a window job in

16 Staten Island. I'm sorry what is happening

17 in your neighborhood in Bed Stuyvesant. I

18 think it's criminal what went on. It was a

19 mess.

20 It was a year-long project in my

21 school, and it never once occurred to me

22 with the work on my building that they

23 might be doing something dangerous. I had

24 no idea what PCB was. I didn't really know

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1 on how dangerous it is.

2 We have inherited a mess as a school

3 cities are school system, as a society. I

4 don't know how we can make any regulation

5 shall come more lacks than what we have.

6 They were allowed to come into my

7 son's classroom every night of the week and

8 rip out windows and disturb a dangerous

9 poison, hazardous waste in my child's

10 classroom with no coverings. There was no

11 way that they did kind of construction

12 project in a building where they didn't

13 disturb that.

14 My child's asthma increased

15 tremendously. He had been to the nurse

16 once from kindergarten to third grade for

17 asthma. When they did the windows, he was

18 on three or four steroid inhalers. There

19 was dust control whatsoever in that

20 construction job. Unfortunately what's in

21 that dust is horrifying. We should all be

22 outraged.

23 I heard them talk as a district what

24 went into my jobs. It took one click on my

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1 computer that my school job was

2 $3.9 million to endanger my child and get

3 my child sick.

4 We're talking about the most

5 vulnerable people in our society, children

6 and women of child-bearing age, many of

7 whom are in the building. It's outrageous

8 to me that the School Construction

9 Authority can defend what went on in any of

10 these schools.

11 Never to this date have they tested

12 any of the air from that building. I had

13 an air filter running in my child's room so

14 he could breath. There are six kids

15 breathing with nebulizers. It's sickening.

16 I don't understand how anyone can walk

17 away. To this day it's never been clean.

18 I thought what we would come further than

19 that from what we know environmentally, how

20 exposure and toxins affected our health and

21 how it affects our children.

22 We have seen a huge rise in children's

23 autism, cancer, neurological and

24 developmental delays. They are neuro

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1 toxins. We know that PCBs are neuro

2 toxins. It absolutely scares me to death

3 that they can come in and do that. They

4 exposed everyone working there, nurses;

5 custodial workers came in early in the

6 morning to clean up the construction

7 workers' mess --

8 At the last meeting there was

9 predominantly the people in the industry

10 who supported the changes in the PCB

11 regulations.

12 What I have to say is that maybe in

13 that industry where they talk about

14 self-regulation, they have the ability to

15 protect their workers. Maybe they are

16 regulating themselves.

17 I don't really know why the talk of

18 caulk is being mixed in. I didn't have the

19 benefit for my child. It never occurred to

20 me that nobody was looking out for what was

21 going on in his classroom. We were never

22 notified. No one in the building who even

23 worked there was ever notified that

24 anything dangerous was being taken out of

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1 that building.

2 I think for whatever reason to raise

3 the 50 ppm maybe in contained spaces, I

4 don't know. If the reason is the burden it

5 is ours, the burden is ours because the

6 kids will get sick because the next

7 generation will not be what their potential

8 is.

9 The burden is ours. It's our

10 responsibility to make sure that there is

11 control on something like this. I couldn't

12 see any less control if I tried. I don't

13 know how we are go to loosen up the

14 regulations on what is going to be done.

15 That's all I have to is to say. I'm

16 sorry for everything here. If you lived

17 through these construction jobs, you have a

18 right to be concerned.

19 My son's blood was tested and he did

20 have exposure of PCBs in his blood. They

21 are able to know about it is in something

22 else other than in food exposure. My son

23 had a congener that showed up that was not

24 related to food.

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1 I just hope that we have some impact

2 here with you. Whatever changes they want

3 to put in please leave the unencapsulated

4 use out of it. You will not be able to

5 trust the people that do anything about it,

6 especially in a city as large as this, that

7 they are going to do it right, because they

8 are not.

9 Thank you.

10 MR. SCHREIBER: Thank you.

11 Yes, sir.

12 DR. LEFKOWITZ: I'm Dr. Daniel

13 Lefkowitz. I've been involved with PCBs

14 since about 2005 or '06. I had spoken at

15 the last meeting. I will be very brief.

16 My background and my recommendations

17 to the EPA study were discovered in my

18 son's school in Yorktown Heights. They did

19 a window replacement in 2004.

20 I head the Harwick study about the

21 work in the Boston area, and I asked the

22 EPA, and how do I know that the school is

23 contaminated and I doubt the caulking and

24 the soil was contaminated.

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1 And I said that this is in thousands

2 of other schools. And I started to create

3 a Web site, PCBs in Schools, to educate the

4 public, the politicians, whoever wants to

5 read it.

6 I was instrumental in getting the New

7 York Department of Education to implement

8 its regulations as far as cleaning up, as

9 far as PCBs in New York State schools.

10 My position here, the level of PCBs,

11 the 50 ppm, should be lowered down to five

12 ppm. And even if the limit is down to five

13 ppm, if there is no mandate to tested, then

14 to me this is totally worthless because you

15 will have an amount at 49 parts per

16 million.

17 And if the knowledge, be it the

18 school, a hospital or building owner or

19 whatever, a nursing home or what have you,

20 if there is no mandate to test, they will

21 leave it there. And they can do anything

22 possible not to test.

23 I know this for a fact because I have

24 dealt with a lot of different places. I'm

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1 asking the EPA to initiate rulemaking as

2 far as mandated testing.

3 Second of all, I will ask the EPA to

4 mandate fittings for the custodians and the

5 workers. If the maintenance people do not

6 understand how to maintain it or what to

7 look for, it's a worthless deal.

8 This should be treated the same way as

9 asbestos. We should have the same type of

10 regulations for PCB for training and

11 testing.

12 The fourth is to coordinate with the

13 CDC to do blood studies throughout the

14 entire community because the older studies

15 are kind of outdated because the technology

16 is not as sophisticated as we have today.

17 I understand that the EPA, their job

18 is not public health. If it can be

19 coordinated with the CDC to do blood

20 studies, that will be a positive step in

21 the right directions. That's it.

22 MR. SCHREIBER: Thank you.

23 Matt Wallach.

24 MR. WALLACH: Good evening. My name

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1 is Matt Wallach. I'm the Hudson Valley

2 program coordinator for Citizens Campaign

3 for the Environment.

4 Thank you for the opportunity to

5 comment today on the reassessment of

6 current authorizations for PCB use and

7 distribution in commerce.

8 CCE is an 80,000 member

9 not-for-profit, non-partisan advocacy

10 organization working for the protection of

11 public health and the natural environment.

12 The protection of waterways,

13 especially estuaries, is of the utmost

14 importance to CCE. CCE has been working to

15 protect water quality across New York State

16 since its inception in 1985.

17 My testimony will focus on how changes

18 to the Toxic Substances Control Act could

19 benefit the PCB remediation process in the

20 Hudson River.

21 After many years of no action, CCE is

22 encouraged that the removal of PCBs in the

23 Hudson River is now underway. Over 30

24 years, 1.3 million pounds of PCBs were

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1 released in the Hudson River from two

2 General Electric manufacturing plants north

3 of Albany.

4 Since the ban of their use in 1979,

5 the PCBs that were released by GE has

6 remained in the Hudson River and are now

7 present in the river sediment, as well as

8 the living organisms, including fish,

9 wildlife, and people along the 200-mile

10 stretch of the Hudson River.

11 PCBs are responsible for a large array

12 of adverse health effects, including

13 cancer. And their effects multiply as they

14 move up the food chain.

15 CCE supports a full remediation of

16 PCBs in the Hudson River to the point where

17 we will not have to worry about how many

18 fish we can consume before becoming sick.

19 CCE supports the Toxic Substance

20 Control Act's ability to provide the EPA

21 with authority to require reporting,

22 recordkeeping, testing requirements, and

23 restrictions relating to PCBs.

24 While not perfect, the TSCA has rules

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1 and guidelines to ensure the health and

2 safety of wildlife and people.

3 The objectives established in the

4 record of decision (ROD) between the EPA

5 and GE were to reduce PCB levels in

6 sediments in order to reduce PCB

7 concentrations in river water that are

8 above water quality standards, reduce

9 cancer risks and non-cancer health hazards

10 to people who eat fish from the Hudson

11 River, lower the risks to fish and wildlife

12 by reducing the concentrations of PCBs,

13 reduce the quantity of PCBs in sediments

14 that may be consumed by fish and wildlife,

15 and minimize the long-term movement of PCBs

16 down river.

17 CCE supports any reassessments of the

18 current authorizations in the TSCA that

19 advance the goals to have a clean and

20 healthy Hudson River ecosystem.

21 CCE supports changes that employ the

22 best use technology, accurately gauge the

23 depth of contamination, and ensure proper

24 cleanup and remediation of all contaminated

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1 sediments in the Hudson River. CCE

2 supports any changes that require the best

3 available technology to be used in the

4 cleanup process.

5 CCE believes that all technologies

6 should be reconsidered, and the method

7 chosen must have the least impact to the

8 surrounding habitat, wildlife, and public's

9 health.

10 Hydraulic dredging has not been the

11 chosen method of PCB dredging in the Hudson

12 River. The traditional means of dredging

13 has resulted in larger than necessary

14 disturbances of sediment.

15 CCE recommends reevaluating the

16 feasibility of using hydraulic dredging to

17 remove PCB contamination in the Hudson

18 River.

19 CCE supports any changes that increase

20 the amount of core sampling required during

21 the remediation process. A sufficient

22 amount of core sampling must be conducted

23 to accurately gauge the depth of

24 contamination.

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1 Phase 1 of the Hudson River

2 remediation process proved that the extent

3 of PCB contamination is more widespread

4 than previously thought. The depth of

5 contamination of PCBs was wrong during the

6 sampling process resulting in the dredging

7 of approximately 100,000 additional cubic

8 yards of contaminated sediment.

9 The EPS must ensure that a sufficient

10 amount of core sampling is done before the

11 commencement of Phase 2. The accuracy of

12 depth of contamination will result in a

13 more efficient cleanup process, less

14 disturbances of sediments, and the ability

15 to ensure that the contaminated soil is

16 removed.

17 CCE supports changes to more

18 accurately characterize depth of

19 contamination before and after dredging.

20 CCS supports changes that ensure greater

21 enforcement of PCB spills during

22 remediation.

23 The EPA must ensure that during the

24 cleanup process, GE is using all available

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1 technology and resources to ensure that it

2 is capturing any PCB oils that have escaped

3 during the dredging process.

4 CCE supports changes recognizing that

5 leaving or covering PCBs in the Hudson will

6 not be safer for the environment in this

7 unique river ecosystem. Capping or

8 covering PCB contamination does not make

9 the Hudson River safe; it only delays the

10 release of these toxins.

11 Over time, the cap will be washed

12 away, once again exposing the polluted

13 sediment to fish, wildlife, and the entire

14 ecosystem. The EPA must ensure that the

15 Hudson River is returned to a healthy

16 state.

17 Leaving PCBs in the river will

18 continue to threaten the health of the food

19 chain and the public. Capping should only

20 be considered as a last resort for this

21 river environment, but must not be used as

22 a primary option to speed up the process or

23 to reduce cost.

24 CCE supports changes that ensure the

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1 EPA will use legal means to guarantee that

2 GE fully complies with the removal of all

3 PCB-contaminated sediments during Phase 2.

4 Proper cleanup is critical, and regulations

5 need to be in place to ensure that it is

6 done correctly and completely.

7 CCE urges the EPA to not allow any

8 delay on the implementation of Phase 2 of

9 the cleanup. CCE believes that moving

10 ahead without is the only acceptable

11 solution for the Hudson River.

12 Thank you for your time. CCE looks

13 forward to submitting more detailed

14 comments on the TSCA and PCB remediation in

15 the Hudson River.

16 MR. SCHREIBER: Thank you. I see a

17 few hands up already. I believe the lady

18 in the front motioned to me a moment ago.

19 Did one of you wanted to speak.

20 A VOICE: No.

21 MR. SCHREIBER: Okay, Sir.

22 Mr. Barr.

23 MR. BARR: One quick point I wanted to

24 make here, and that is recognizing our

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1 local authority and their recalcitrance.

2 Going into the prior hearing, I heard

3 about the fact that the PCBs in the caulk

4 in schools built between '50 and '78, there

5 was a 50 percent or less chance that the

6 caulk used there is no guarantee that there

7 is PCBs in the school.

8 Being at this hearing, learning that a

9 number of schools that had window

10 replacement and knowing that our school

11 did, I asked around and the people said the

12 best thing to do is get tested and know

13 what you're dealing with.

14 It was recommended that I speak to --

15 our parent association was talking about

16 how to go about this. Should we try to

17 come up with the money ourselves? Somebody

18 said speak to the principal of the school.

19 And I did.

20 He or she made very clear that they

21 are talking because of fear of attribution

22 from the Department of Education.

23 The advice was started by asking the

24 DOE to test your school. Unless they have

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1 been already been made aware of a problem,

2 they will never go for it.

3 That's how willing they seem to face

4 the problem unless there's a gun at their

5 head. As parents, we have to come up with

6 the money ourselves to have the places

7 tested.

8 Thank you.

9 MR. SCHREIBER: Would anybody else

10 like to come to the podium and make a

11 comment? Then I believe Dr. Maria Doa

12 wanted to make a comment.

13 DR. DOA: Good evening. I am Maria

14 Doa. I'm from the EPA in Washington. We

15 will be remaining here in case other people

16 want to speak.

17 I want to take the opportunity, since

18 there are no other speakers right now, I

19 want to take the opportunity to thank

20 everyone for taking the time for coming to

21 give such excellent comments. I found all

22 of the comments very thoughtful, very

23 compelling.

24 I would like to emphasize that we have

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1 heard very loud and clear the caution, as

2 you should be, an issue and the slew of

3 comments on the caulk is in keeping up with

4 the notice with respect to the

5 authorization.

6 This is a very important issue because

7 it affects our children as well as all of

8 us. I want to say that we appreciate the

9 comments that you have provided.

10 We will be taking it back to

11 Washington and into the region, of course,

12 and it will be front and center as we look

13 at and seeing how we will be moving forward

14 on the entire issue of PCBs.

15 Thank you.

16 MR. SCHREIBER: Let's take a

17 ten-minute break because maybe somebody

18 after the break wants to make a comment.

19 (Recess taken.)

20 MR. SCHREIBER: The meeting is

21 adjourned.

22 (Time noted: 8:20 p.m.)

23

24

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1 CERTIFICATE

2

3 STATE OF NEW YORK )

4 : ss

5 COUNTY OF NEW YORK)

6

7 I, MICHAEL CATANIA, a Shorthand Reporter

8 and Notary Public within and for the State of

9 New York, do hereby certify:

10 That the foregoing transcript is a true

11 record of the proceedings.

12 I further certify that I am notrelated

13 to any of the parties to this action by blood

14 or marriage, and that I am not interested in

15 the outcome of this matter.

16

17

18 _______________________

19 MICHAEL CATANIA

20

21

22

23

24

25
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data 4:3

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effective 9:12 37:9

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face 8:3 26:17 72:3

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habitat 67:8

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hard 25:15

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inhaled 21:20
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16:5,8,22
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47:15

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presentations

5:12,17
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president 2:7

13:20

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66:17

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12:10

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recently 11:9
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recognize 6:9

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recommendations

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71:14

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69:15

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review 12:9 43:10
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reviewed 44:6

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